The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/nyms/ehrlich606/1996/ehrlich.0696


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  1 08:43:32 PDT 1996
Article: 40458 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: 1 Jun 1996 06:20:45 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 60
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4op5ht$ni@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4oo7pb$4oh@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4oo7pb$4oh@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>In <31AF08FA.6D5E@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>
>>From Zundels news letter, sorry had to clip some out, I can't send 
>>more old text than new text. It's pretty hairy what she says, but how 
>>much of is true...who knows. But she blames the Jews for starting the 
>>whole enchilada.
>>Chuck
>
>Well, Chuck, all I can say is that I took Ingrid's ominous warnings to
>heart (because she who paraphrases Tom Brokaw so eloquently would
>never want to lead us to erroneous conclusions, would she?) I did not
>read these "testimonies".  However, it does not surprise me in the
>least that she blames the Jews.  
>
>Truth be told, I'd be quite astonished to learn of anything Ingrid
>talks about that she can not fault the Jews for!  Wasn't it only
>yesterday that she was complaining because evil British Jews were
>strongly advocating _against_ laws which would make Holocaust denial a
>criminal offence throughout Europe?
>
>That being said, however, I really think it was somewhat premature of
>you to comment on these "testimonies" until our resident historian par
>excellence (aka Al "BISS" Baron) has had an opportunity to review them
>with his "policeman's eye" - and offer his inimitable pronouncement to
>guide us all in our consideration of these "documents".  As we all
>know, "gruesome details" are his specialty.
>
>
Having read the testimony that Ingrid offers, and having not put quotation
marks around it, I would think that the above readers would show a little
more restraint and respect.

I would say that I have read hundreds of survivor testimonies and hundreds
of expellee testimonies.  There are certain things that I consider
plausible, and there are certain things that I consider implausible.  I do
not, for that reason, ridicule such testimonies, nor do I -- at the same
time -- make jokes about them.  I certainly _have_ expressed reservations,
but certainly never in such words as these.

Sometimes testimonies are so absurd that you can't help but laugh out
loud.  But then, you never know when, described just a little bit
differently, you will find yourself nodding grimly in agreement.  That the
above two readers would be so flippant about these testimonies, in one
case, without even bothering to read them  -- exaggerations and all --
truly disappoints me.

Nizkor wants the general public to respect the suffering of the Jewish
people in WW2, and the many other categories of victims of Nazism.  That
defines our focus, our aspirations, and our mode of address.  The
slightest deviation from the believed to be correct norms will bring down
critical e-mails and detailed interrogatories.  And yet ....

There is something that people should keep in mind.  It is called the
Golden Rule.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  1 08:43:33 PDT 1996
Article: 40470 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!en.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: My Complaint About Matt Giwer
Date: 31 May 1996 11:40:46 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4on3tu$6g7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4om9fu$a8e@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4om9fu$a8e@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) writes:

>
>	If you want more on semantics itself, look for the works of S.I.
>Hiyakawa, perhaps the best introductory works around.  Later you
>can try Science and Sanity by Alfred Korzybski if you are up to
>it.  
>
>

These are excellent books.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:03 PDT 1996
Article: 40497 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's Affliction
Date: 31 May 1996 16:42:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4onlis$cvu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4onf0u$kov@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4onf0u$kov@shiva.usa.net>, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz)
writes:

>
>There is a bit more that needs to be said to understand Mr. Giwer's
>aberrant behavior.
>
>
At this point Mr. Katz launches into an actually pretty good anecdote
about a friend whose car was smashed by someone full of pentup resentment
and rage.  He then extends the concept and concludes that Giwer is full of
resentment and rage, and therefore acts out on this board.

But even if this is so, is Giwer the only one who is "acting out"?  I
wouldn't make presumptions about my fellow board members, but people can
act out in a variety of ways.  Nor do I exclude myself!





From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:04 PDT 1996
Article: 40519 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: GOLDHAGEN's book & H*ber's lies
Date: 1 Jun 1996 00:58:33 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4ooilp$ngs@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4omaon$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4omaon$695@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) writes:

>	Yet all of this "meticulous" historic research never seems to
>turn up on word about them.  Or was Treblinka really 800,000 Jews
>out of a total of 2,000,000?  It certainly would go a ways to
>come to the supposed total.  
>
>
>

Well, in the context of this post altogether Matt, it is well known that
these kind of outrages occurred both at the time of the Anschluss and
during Kristallnacht.  The possibility for some exaggeration exists, but
the general mob violence, destruction, and ritualized humiliation was in
fact reported on and even photographed.  A convenient place to start would
be Shirer's "Berlin Diary", perhaps not _objective_ in all respects, but a
very good indication of the press of the period (1933-1940).

As to the other victims, I am the wrong guy to ask.  I grant the
destruction of the Jewish people, my questions are largely about
procedures and degree of pre-planning.  As to the other victims, my
quantification would be a lot higher than 5.8 million, but, OTOH, I don't
see the _intentionality_  that I see for the Jewish people.  I am
_certain_ that Nizkor and most others disagree with me, but in any case it
is not my point to argue.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  1 17:49:05 PDT 1996
Article: 40539 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960531: Allied War Crimes
Date: 1 Jun 1996 08:20:25 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 3
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4opci9$2eu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <199605319027.AAB0274@infinity.c2.org>
Reply-To: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

I would like to see how some of the regulars would respond to this post. 
Although I consider part of it unbelievable, there is much in here that I
have seen in several other sources.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:14 PDT 1996
Article: 40650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Antisemitism as class resentment? (was Re: GOLDHAGEN's book & H*ber's lies)
Date: 1 Jun 1996 14:01:41 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 195
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4oq0i5$827@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4opgij$hac@boris.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4opgij$hac@boris.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
writes:

>
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>>In article
,
>>Marty Kelley  writes:
>
>>>
>>>While I'd agree that much antisemitism is due to the scapegoating you 
>>>discuss here, it's an inadequate explanation of the virulent
antisemitism
>
>>>that was also common among the midle and upper classes in Germany of
the 
>>>early part of this century.  The professional classes also, for the
most 
>>>part, were well-represented in the Nazi party and in institutions such
as
>
>>>medicine and the law (Lifton's _The Nazi Doctors_ is an outstanding 
>>>discussion of the role that such ideology played in German medicine).
>>>
>
>>I am focussing on the incidents described in the passage, because I
think
>>they are very revealing and bear comparison for a typical activity of
>>communist revolutions. 
>
>Then make a case for some sort of racial prejudice working in the
>propaganda of the Russian Revolution. I think you are all wet, but I'd
>be interested in learning what you have on this revisionism.

I don't think racial prejudice has anything to do with the incidents
described, or the incidents described by Goldhagen.
>
>> I make no claim that such comparisons embrace the
>>entire scope of European antisemitism.
>
>But what the heck, your going to try, right?

Antisemitism is a complex issue, as I am sure you are aware!  The apparent
multi-rootedness of the phenomenon probably has a lot to do with the tone
of this conference.

>
>>  By advocacy of certain exclusions?  These
>>were common in Germany, and everywhere else, including the USA.  By
>>forbidding intermarriage?
>
>Mostly this was a RELIGIOUS difference in the US and not the racial
>thing the moronic Nazis made of it.

According to Louis L. Snyder, it was common to refer to Jews, even _among_
Jews, as a race before 1933.  I don't know which of his books covers the
phenom of antisemitism, but there it is.
>
>>  But intermarriage was common.
>
>Of course. That's why they broke the Jews down to degrees of
>Jewisness.

That's why the race thing doesn't really hold.  Of course the Nazis made a
fetish about race.  That, to me, was the most repulsive thing about the
ideology.  I just don't think race is relevant to anything.
>
>>  By wishing to
>>limit immigration from Poland?  But no country wanted these poor people.

>
>This is sadly true. But how did we move from marriage to immigration
>in one paragraph?

Because I am trying to argue that the antisemitism that one found in the
middle and upper classes of German society was common to throughout the
Western World.  If it was "virulent" I want indications about that among
the upper classes.  Obviously, I am taking the tack that Nazism, as a
species of Fascism, as well as Stalinism, were all rooted in class
resentments.  This, BTW, is not a new idea.
>
>>That is part of the tragedy of the Holocaust.  By identifying Jews with
>>communism?
>
>Your asking a question? This seems to be a mangled thought. Take your
>time and divide the subject matter up. 

The tragedy of the Holocaust is that the Jews were hated in East Europe
because they had been the former middle classes, and they had been
impoverished in the 150 years since the Polish partitions.  By the 20th
Century they were in real bad economic shape.  The tragedy is that they
were harrassed and subject to massacres ("pogroms") long before the Nazis
showed up, and when the Nazis showed up, the West wouldn't make
accomodation for them.   That's a tragedy.

Now to the communist angle.  East European Jews were attracted to
socialism, which BTW only gradually evolved into the ideology that Lenin
and later Stalin used, because it promised a future in which they would no
longer be persecuted.  At the same time, this usually meant a turning away
>from  Judaism.  Can't blame them for that.  And, in the defense of
Communism, it did not have the racial persecution aspect common to Nazism,
although it ended up killing millions of people also.

Socialism and Communism, in a nutshell, were ideologies for the insulted
and injured in society, which promised a better world as well as a means
for creating that better world.  So that is why the large Jewish
involvement.  Unfortunately,  if prominent communist leaders (Karl
Liebknecht, Rosa Luxemburg, Kurt Eisner, Bela Kun, Leon Trotsky) were
ethnic Jews, that would just tend to reinforce a not necessarily
"virulent" antisemitism into something paranoid.  But again, the
association of Jew=Communist was a common one throughout Europe and
America in the early 20th Century.

>
>>  But this was a common European sentiment.  

>>By advocating mass
>>murder or contemptible riots? Surely you don't claim that doctors and
>>lawyers led these displays!
>
>Read the book he suggested. It is a very good presentation of the
>racial killing killing to be made "ethical " by including doctors in
>the decisions and making it a medical killing.
>
>>I have not inspected Lifton's book to this extent, however, it would be
>>instructive to know the social and economic background of those doctors
>>and lawyers who were the most committed Nazis.
>
>It's about doctors and not lawyers. 

[At this point Mike launches into a fine discussion of several of the
individuals discussed in the book.  I will try to find this to borrow. 
OTOH, I am aiming at sociological background to explain all of this in
part.  That part Mike doesn't provide, but that's OK]
>
>>  In the army at least,
>>Nazism was equivalent to a certain egalitarianism, because it provided
an
>>ideology for middle class school teachers' sons like Rommel and Model to
>>climb to the highest ranks among the tradition junker milieu of Manstein
>>and Guderian.  In other words, Nazism was not only an antisemitic
ideology
>>but an ideology of social advancement for ethnic Germans.  This should
be
>>kept in mind.  I wonder how many of these doctors and lawyers came from
>>classes that would have been excluded from the professional classes in
>>Wilhelmine Germany?
>
>Doesn't seem like many. Some seem to be those "blank slates" the
>Neo-Nazis like to find. They were young and impressionable. Most of
>these guys were early Nazis. Would they have been left out? It doesn't
>seem so. They just joined that party for whatever reasons attracted
>them.

Again, Mike I am looking for social background type stuff.
.
>
>>  Also, compare the usually lower socio-economic
>>background of most of the Nazi leadership.
>
>Either they are or they are not. I think you need to make up your
>mind. The Nazis seem to be a mixed crowd.

The fact remains that in Wilhelmine society the most prestigious ranks
were in the Army, which was heavily noble in origin.  Very few nobles were
involved in the Nazi party, and by the same token, most of the officer
opposition to Hitler came from the nobility.  you could argue with Arno
Mayer argued that Nazism, among other things, was a last gasp effort of
the traditional nobility to hold on [Persistence of Old Regime, I think is
the title].  But I don't buy it, precisely because Hitler, Himmler,
Goebbels and most other top Nazis were not from the traditional nobility.

>
>>Finally, it should be pointed out that it was the promise of social
>>advancement that attracted many East Europeans to the communist
ideology. 
>
>So the autocratic and brutal tactics of a selfish government had
>nothing to do with it, eh?

Ho hum.
>
>>But in this case as well, attraction to an ideology that would
eventually
>>murder and enslave tens of millions does not necessarily does not make
>>individual adherents evil, IMHO.
>
>I guess this fits somewhere in the fence riding nature of your posts.
>
Ho hum.  On the other hand, I think we just had something approaching a
rational exchange here.
>
>



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun  2 19:34:33 PDT 1996
Article: 40690 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prima Facie Extermination
Date: 2 Jun 1996 19:38:47 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 75
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4ot8m7$97n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4oivn7$sg4@Vir.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4oivn7$sg4@Vir.com>, Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
writes:

>
>  I dismissed it for several reasons, first of all I would say that
>  since it bears no signature and it is a typewritten document it
>  was easy to forge it. Second we never eared about the Jews who were
>  drives to USSR in 2 separates columns, but Staeglich made some
>  good comments on other aspects that are weird.
>
>

Jean Francois, I will certainly grant that people should be allowed to
draw their own conclusions about the manner and extent to which the
destruction of the European Jewish community was carried out.  I do not
think that "denial" of this or that necessarily marks the person off as a
"bad person" by any particular definition.
I also don't think that expressing opinions, even opinions that avoid
facts, is a bad thing.  And you _know_ that I think anti-free speech laws
are deeply pernicious.

I sometimes think that the revisionists start with the observation that
there are or have been some discrepancies from the post-war trials and
then they go from there to doubting the validity of _everything_ offered. 
You can do that too, I guess.  The problem is that eventually you get to
the point where you ask yourself, "Why do I even bother to do this?"

In other words, you create a situation where, if you like, you can doubt
every aspect of reality, but at some point you have to reconstruct a
reality.  Usually, at this point, the reconstruction involves the positing
of a "force" that has created this alternate reality that you reject. 
Oftentimes, that reconstruction leads to, or perhaps reinforces, a
pre-existing prejudice, but anyway I know that most of the time such a
reconstruction is antisemitic.  And that ain't good. 

I think the other thing happens on the other side, too.  There is a desire
to integrate a whole bunch of heterogeneous data, and make it all "fit" a
pattern, namely, the pattern of carefully pre-planned exterminations. 
That is human nature.  But IMHO the data does not always match that
interpretation, either.  And so we have another attempt to force the data
to fit the interpretation that was pre-posited.  Therefore, it is insisted
that Lithuanians killed Jews, but not spontaneously, only after the Nazis
talked them into it, or it is insisted that marches to the West in the
waning days of the war were pre-planned to kill as many Jews as possible,
or it is insisted that the Nazis deliberately created situations where the
German camps would be infested with typhus as a means of deliberately
killing as many Jews as possible, even though by doing so they created a
devastating photo op for indicting the National Socialist regime.

In short, I think both sides have a tendency to insist that every datum
fit an over-arching structure, either of pure extermination or pure
denial.  And I consider both tendencies paranoid.  There is a concept of
Greek philosophy, a state of "aporia" that comes up all the time in the
Platonic dialogues.  Socrates asks questions, asks questions, and then at
some point his interlocuter is speechless, he is in this state of "aporia"
a kind of unknowingness.  People tend to want to get out of this state as
soon as possible, because it creates anxiety, and so they come down fast
on one side or the other.  And that's a pity!  Because all philosophies,
at some point in their argument, will tell you that precisely that state
on uncertainty is where all real insight comes.

Getting back to your specific comment, yes, you can deny the veracity of
the Wannsee minutes, and you can deny gas chambers, or extermination
policy, or whatever.  And where does it get you?  Instead of focussing on
the elements that make you uncertain, and then quickly coming down on the
side of total denial, why not allow the elements that make you uncertain
to just "be there" and do a lateral shift to other aspects of WW2 in the
East and attempt to acquire a feeling for the human drama and suffering
that went on in the course of six years of war.  In this way you may be
able to acquire some real insights, one of them being that fractious
debates on these matters are rarely life affirming or life generating.

  

  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun  2 19:34:34 PDT 1996
Article: 40703 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression: Funk & the Nazi Economy
Date: 2 Jun 1996 20:10:36 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 24
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4otahs$9kc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4oska2$48f@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4oska2$48f@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) writes:

>Subject:	Nazi Conspiracy & Aggression: Funk & the Nazi Economy
>From:	kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
>Date:	2 Jun 1996 10:50:58 -0700
>
>Archive/File: NCA-01-08-economic-mobilization
>Last-Modified: 1996/05/30
>
>
>                                                  [Page 349]
>
>                        Chapter VIII
>             ECONOMIC ASPECTS OF THE CONSPIRACY
>         

The lengthy document appended is part of the Nuremberg indictment re:
Schacht, Funk, and Goering, among others.  The veracity and or validity of
the claims in this document should be compared with the ultimate verdicts:
 Schacht was acquitted, Funk received a life sentence but was released in
the early '50's, and goering was sentenced to hang, but committed suicide
hours before.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun  3 08:18:26 PDT 1996
Article: 40758 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: 2 Jun 1996 01:05:31 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 48
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4or7er$kem@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4oqlkd$2b@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4oqlkd$2b@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) writes:

>
>Keith Morrison  wrote:
>
>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>> 
>>> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>> 
>>>         Certainly.  The rank difference to make a direct report makes
him
>>> a staff officer, not a line officer.  As such he had no
>>> independent authority to order anything.
>
>>As a former member of the military this idea causes some amusement,
>>as I'm sure it will to anyone else who has served under arms.
>
>	Enlisted or officer?  How did you avoid having a chain of
>command?
>
>>>         He knows there was a room full of naked Jews (how he could
tell
>>> religion is beyond me) 
>
>>"And this, sir, is the room where the operations take place.  Currently
>>it is full of Jews."
>
>>"I see.  Carry on."
>
>>That's one way he might have known.  Next silly question?
>
I tend to avoid eponymous threads but the answer to the alleged Jewishness
of these naked victims is simply obvious.  Circumcision!  Indeed, Dallin's
"Russia Under German Rule" relates an episode where several Crimean Tatars
were massacred because, as Moslems, they had also been circumcised.  The
practice of identifying Jews by their genitalia (bearing in mind that
almost universal circumcision is not normally practiced in Europe) was, as
obnoxious as it sounds, apparently common.  "Au revoir les enfants", which
is an excellent non-sledgehammer treatment of the Holocaust, that I used
to inflict on my students every year, and which I recommend to
revisionists and conventionalists alike, uses this motif at several
points.





From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun  3 08:18:26 PDT 1996
Article: 40831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!bofh.dot!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 2 Jun 1996 06:12:50 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 54
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4orpf2$q6j@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <1JUN199621255593@cmi.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <1JUN199621255593@cmi.arizona.edu>, dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes:

>
>>    As an aside, today's (5/31/96) New York Times National Edition page
10
>>    (I think)  contained a lengthy story about the Tulsa Riots of 1921. 
A
>>    black was mistakenly accused of assualting a white woman and members
of
>>    the white population of the town completely destroyed a black
community
>>    within the town in retribution.  Estimates of black dead ranged from
>>    about 30 to well over 100.  (Interesting methodological reasons
exist
>>    which inhibited achieving an exact count.)
>> 
>>    As I read this story, its tone reminded me very much of several
stories
>>    I've read recently of dozens or hundreds of Jews killed in villages
in
>>    Poland, Germany and the Ukraine during the early 1940s.  Its
shocking
>>    to me that such things have happened in the US as well.  Its
shocking
>>    to me that in many ways our communities have been in denial about
these
>>    events (which was the point of the article.)
>
>    At the risk of appearing schizophrenic by answering my own post, let
me
>    add that this story in the New York Times is also a data point to
>    counter Tom Moran's claim that no one makes a fuss about the other
>    groups who are trod upon by the white european masses.  The New York
>    Times (Jewish publisher and all) have written about mistreatment of
>    black americans in just the same manner historians have written about
>    pogroms against the Jews.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 

The situation that Dan describes is a good one.  ALL paroxysms of violence
against Blacks were justified by dragging out the hoary "had sex with a
white woman" excuse, just as all violence against Jews was justified by
the stupid "killed Christian kids to make matzohs" excuse.  MANY of the
these incidents (cf. the famous Brownsville Raid in the US) had obvious
socio-economic _competitive_ features to them.

Sure, I know I will now get tons of e-mail accusing me of "trivializing"
something, but if the people out there really care about stopping future
Holocausts _pay attention_ to the socio-economic perspectives.  Race -- I
will say it here -- is an economic concept.  I will buttress this in a few
days with an analysis.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun  3 12:17:14 PDT 1996
Article: 40876 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Antisemitism as class resentment? (was Re: GOLDHAGEN's book & H*ber's lies)
Date: 3 Jun 1996 06:00:14 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 87
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4oud3e$mf9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <1779AE2BES86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <1779AE2BES86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
(borowsky) writes:

> 
>>
>>In article <4orpqd$qcn@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
>>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>>
>>[editing]
>>
>>>  Yet [inhabitants of Eastern Europe] murdered [many] of the ultimate
>victims
>>>of the Holocaust.  So how can we say that the Nazi ideology _per se_
was
>>>the cause of the Holocaust?
>>
>>I realize I'm editing much out. If, as you say, non-Germans helped add
>greatly
>>to the number of those dead under a Nazi program of extermination, then
>would
>>they have been able to add any at all if such a program did not exist? 
It
>>doesn't follow.  And you seem to admit as much:

No, as a matter of fact antisemitic pressures were common, in for example,
Poland prior to 1939, although certainly the extent is a matter of some
debate (contrast Piotr Wandycz with, say, Norman Davies).  But what I am
really saying is that _anomie_ is what made the Baltic massacres possible.
 In other words, the havoc of war created a situation where people could
*settle scores*.  The ultimate responsibility goes to Germany, and see my
comments below, but I do not think that these massacres were always "part
of the program."  Nevertheless, the victims can legitimately be included
among Holocaust victims, in my view.

>>
>>>In raising this point, I don't for a moment deny the German
government's
>>>ultimate responsibility.  [editing]
>>
>>But then again I'm not clear if the word `ultimate' should mean
`original'
>or
>>if it shd mean `primary,' or `chief.' If the former, then you are saying
>that
>>Nazi ideology was in fact the motive of & made possible the Holocaust. 
If
>the
>>latter, then you are saying Nazis were simply the worst, or most
frequent,
>>criminals of a much wider pogram which was (Eastern) European in scope &
>whose
>>aims happened to coincide with Nazi ideology.
>>
>>The former I understand you reject; the latter mistakes sociological
>tendencies
>>for political ideology.

My choice of predicates for responsibility were not as fine tuned as you
would have them.  I say German responsibility because a) Germany invaded
these regions, and b) Germany was the most powerful state to adopt
antisemitic measures leading to extermination, and was, as far as I know,
the only state to articulate measures of extermination (i.e., Wannsee).

I don't think I am mistaking sociological tendencies for polical ideology,
if I am, please expand.  What I am saying is that the Nazi ideology (or
more precisely that point that involved Jewish extermination) would have
been stillborn in the East without the complicity of many natives who were
not Nazis. Therefore it is not strictly true to say that the ideology of
Nazism caused these murders, because, without the antisemitic tendencies
in these regions the policy would have been much harder to carry out, and
perhaps, see below, would not have been carried out.

And that gets us away from National Socialism per se to the issue of East
European antisemitism.  And it also gets us away from the idea that an
"exterminationist" ideology for killing Jews among Germans was the main
operative idea, rather than long standing anti-Jewish prejudice in the
East.  And it also gets us away from the idea that Hitler's antisemitism
was strictly a function of his own psychoses rather than a "negative
coalition" whereby he sought to *unify* subject peoples to his cause of
German domination.  And it also gets us away from the idea that the
*German People* are the only people that we have to microscopically
examine in attempting to understand the Holocaust.

Nothing definite is arrived at by looking at these issues this way, but it
could possibly be fruitful. 

 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun  3 14:54:14 PDT 1996
Article: 40879 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: People like Hoess, Pery Broad & Kremer
Date: 3 Jun 1996 06:17:23 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 24
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4oue3j$n2q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4otdue$d2q@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4otdue$d2q@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>
>>   dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) writes:
>> 
>>  
>>      I am stating this from memory, but I believe we declared war on
>Germany
>>      on December 8, 1941 and they declared war on us on either December
9
>or
>>      10.  Am I correct, or do I have my facts wrong here?
>
>	Yes.  Hitler declared war on the U.S.  before FDR's "Day of
Infamy" 
>address to Congress.

My recall is that Germany declared war on the US on December 8, 1941.  It
was always my guess that Hitler's decision -- inexplicable to many war
historians -- had one main  root: Stalin's speech a few days earlier
(consult) in which he declared that the war was a war of transport (voina
motorov), and that agreements with the US would make it possible for the
USSR to win.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun  3 14:54:17 PDT 1996
Article: 40880 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: 3 Jun 1996 06:18:10 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4oue52$n4q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31b1c798.13508858@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31b1c798.13508858@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>
>	The precidence is expanding. Eventually people will be relying
>more and more on concrete, objective evidence. Once this becomes the
>recognized practice, only that which can be confirmed by the
>scientific method will be accepted, which so far, with the above, have
>been dismal failures.
>
>

I think you are overstating your case, but OTOH I expect that what you say
will occur over the next several decades.  That is why I attempt to
integrate the Holocaust into a larger picture, and tend also to downplay
those elements that are the object of so much controversy.  My reward for
my efforts is to be accused of irrelevance and self indulgence! 

But I also don't think that you believe what your are saying.  If you
_really_ believed it, you would not use this newsgroup shovel out so much
antisemitic garbage as you do.  History is an art, and no history survives
without a positive esthetic.  But almost everything you post is negative. 
And people who live to generate or imbibe just negativity contribute very
little, either in a newsgroup or in life in general.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun  3 19:04:12 PDT 1996
Article: 40913 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!bone.think.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Antisemitism as class resentment? (was Re: GOLDHAGEN's book & H*ber's lies)
Date: 2 Jun 1996 06:18:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 61
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4orpqd$qcn@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4or3ho$rmr@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4or3ho$rmr@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

> 
>>  The tragedy of the Holocaust is that the Jews were hated in East
Europe
>>  because they had been the former middle classes, and they had been
>>  impoverished in the 150 years since the Polish partitions.  By the
20th
>>  Century they were in real bad economic shape.  The tragedy is that
they
>>  were harrassed and subject to massacres ("pogroms") long before the
Nazis
>>  showed up, and when the Nazis showed up, the West wouldn't make
>>  accomodation for them.   That's a tragedy.
>
>	This does not, however, explain areas such as the Baltic states 
>where the Jewish populations maintained their middle class status.
>
>	--YFE
>
>

This is a very fine distinction, and I don't mean in the hair splitting
sense!  My exposure to Yiddish culture reminded me of a theory I used to
hold.  Within the Yiddish world, it is well known that Jews formed
different groups and sub-groups.  Thus "Galitzianers" were regarded as
dopey and country bumpkin types (covering the geography of Carpathia,
Slovakia, and Rumania in this grouping), "Varshavers" were considered as a
sort of mild mean, although severely impoverished  (covering Warsaw, and
most of the Pale of Settlement), and lastly, the "Litvakers" (Baltic Jews,
sorry, Yale, I know your background) who were considered as hard-assed and
Germanic by other Jews.

I once proposed to a Jewish scholar, whose specialty was the Yiddish
theater,  that these three stereotypes fit precisely the archetypes of the
Three Stooges, with Curly (Galitzianer), Larry (Varshaver), and Moe
(Litvaker).  I was not entirely surprised that this light-hearted
suggestion was not dismissed out of hand, but was instead greeted with a
flash of recognition.

My feeling is that the East European Jews were caught in a squeeze.  They
occupied _that_ strata that had frequent traffic with the lower middle and
lower classes both above and below those two classes.  That there is a
sociological basis to East European antisemitism is something I am
persuaded of, E. Mendelsohn's "Jews of Eastern Europe" (1983) was an
influential text for me.  I am not denying that a Christian deicide
influence "preconditioned"  these attitudes.

But that leads us to another point, I mean the circumstances of the
massacres in the Baltics and elsewhere even before the German Nazis had
established their authority. Here, as indeed in many other cases, the
murderers were neither Nazis, Germans, or Aryans (according to Nazi
definitions).  Yet they murdered a sizable number of the ultimate victims
of the Holocaust.  So how can we say that the Nazi ideology _per se_ was
the cause of the Holocaust?

In raising this point, I don't for a moment deny the German government's
ultimate responsibility.  I also think that the German government, under
Adenauer, deserves praise for its willingness to assume responsibility for
the crimes of teh National Socialist regime.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun  4 16:05:45 PDT 1996
Article: 40936 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!izzy.net!aanews.merit.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: 4 Jun 1996 10:15:50 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p1gem$t5q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>That said, I think your accusation that Ms. Ostrov and Mr. Ferree are
>treating the Soviet atrocity testimonies which Ms. Rimland posted
>"flippantly" is too strong.  Mr. Ferree has personally seen more grisly
>scenes than I ever hope to, and I can't judge him for responding
>differently than I do.  I think I've read his words often enough to know
>that he was being grimly serious when he wrote:
>
>

_Of course_ I was coming down hard on Chuck and Hilary!  And I _knew_ that
they were just trying to get a rise out of Ingrid.  OTOH, they come down
on me _all the time_.  Sometimes the tendency to adopt a posture of moral
indignation is just too hard to resist. 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun  4 16:05:49 PDT 1996
Article: 40938 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where did all the ashes go?
Date: 4 Jun 1996 10:43:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p1i1o$f1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31b43800.261662@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31b43800.261662@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>	I think with my head, not my 'heart' or 'guts'. If the person
>spent time in Auschwitz I recognize his suffering. It doesn't mean I
>have to believe whatever he wrote. The road to truth is ill traveled
>by emotional recogning.  
>	Peace be with you, Primo Levy.
>
>

Time for the experts to jump in here:  I recall hearing the story in the
main-stream press that when Primo Levi wrote his first memoir "Auschwitz"
there was nothing in the MS about gassings. He was asked to do so by the
publisher.  Any basis to this?

Another Holocaust survivor who killed himself: Tadeusz Borowski.  He was a
real poet, but people just wanted him to write about Auschwitz.  Rest in
Peace!

And another suicide who was savagely ripped by Sovietologists for telling
the truth about Stalinism:  Peace be with you, Arthur Koestler.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun  5 01:18:42 PDT 1996
Article: 41013 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Allied war crimes, Zundel version
Date: 4 Jun 1996 20:31:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 29
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p2kh0$bsf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p29pc$eh7@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4p29pc$eh7@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>	[...] he's the one who spearheads the movement to give
pseudohistory 	
>	the same credibility as real history, and does so by insisting
that 
>	every voice be heard and that people stop insulting each other
over 
>	the Holocaust.
>
>Because, as I noted in my own response to your "moral posturing" ,
>sometimes "silence" can be quite telling.  Some might even notice a
>pattern forming in your silences, Mr. Ehrlich.
>
>
My opinion is that the "revisionist" movement in too many cases approaches
the subject with an irreverence that is at once understandable but
deplorable for public discussion.  Understandable, because at times the
subject is discussed with a sanctimony that can become oppressive for
events that are 50 years old.  But deplorable because such a tone
discounts the feelings of those intensely involved with the subject and
therefore makes no real attempt at persuasion.  Certainly, the comments of
Mr. Smith that Jamie attached do absolutely nothing to advance the debate.
 OTOH, the lack of politess displayed by Mr. Smith is nothing compared to
the contemptuous tone adopted by several conventionalists on this board,
who I will not name, but whose number does not include you.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun  5 02:25:43 PDT 1996
Article: 41035 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: 4 Jun 1996 16:23:57 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 52
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p260t$75n@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <2JUN199618085139@cmi.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <2JUN199618085139@cmi.arizona.edu>, dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes:

but first Tom Moran writes:
> 
>>	I would invite anyone to become aware of those old Holocaust
>>accounts which have been deleted from the story and check out Nizkor
>>and see if any are there still being stated directly or implied as
>>still true. The soap story, numbers at Auschwitz and a few others. 
>>	The reason for Nizkor is as stated. To have someone out posting
>>absurd things that the likes of the Wiesenthal Center wants to avoid
>>responsiblilty for, yet to have it said.
>
>    You did lots of dancing and asking of other people to do your work
for
>    you, but I note that you did not clearly name even *one* fact that
>    Nizkor and SWC differ on.  I don't feel obligated to "check out
Nizkor
>    and see if any are there...."  You made the assertion; you present
the
>    facts.
>
>    So far, you are just hot air.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 

Actually, Dan, he did name some: the soap story, numbers at Auschwitz, and
a few others.  I don't know what the "few others" are, and I don't know
exactly what he means by the numbers at Auschwitz, but there is an
extensive "soap" file under Stutthof, which, among other things, contains
descriptions handbags and such made from skin that was tanned under the
supervision of the same Dr. Spanner who allegedly oversaw the human soap
production.  BTW, Dr. Spanner was never prosecuted in West Germany for
these alleged activities.

I think Tom misunderstands Nizkor's purpose.  It is an all-purpose
archive.  As such, it is invaluable (the only thing it lacks is a cross
link to the other side, _they_ always cross link Nizkor.)  By going
through its files you can call up all kinds of stuff, which, although it
may not be in the current consensus of historians, is still useful.  Hell,
I have even found revisionist stuff in there.  When they get the entire
IMT and NMT transcripts on line that will also be a tremendous boon, even
though those transcripts will also contain their share of falsehoods,
like, for example, the Soviet generated testimony on Katyn!

You can't have it both ways.  I would rather have an archive that
contained everything, even disputed facts, than an archive that contained
only a periodically updated party line.  The latter smacks too much of
thought police to me.

 



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun  5 07:22:47 PDT 1996
Article: 41072 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.eecs.nwu.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ehrlich
Date: 5 Jun 1996 00:33:38 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 44
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p32n2$gqk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p27m6$ejn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

In article <4p27m6$ejn@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) writes:

>
>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>
>>M. Giwer wrote:
>
>>>Very good.  Now for the second part ritual sexual mutilation is
>>>common among many people.  It runs something like 25% in the US.
>
>>Perhaps the word is "did" run, I believe the frequency of circumcising
>>newborns is on the decline in the US and has been for some years.  The
>>rationale used for years was that statistics indicated that it reduced
the
>>incidence of certain not overly common types of cancer.  Subsequent
>>investigations seem to show that basic hygeine techniques are just as
>>effective in this regard.
>
>	Good sir, there was no medical connection with circumcision up
>until studies were conducted some 30 years ago.  You have a long
>way to go to explain the justfication prior to that on medical
>grounds.  
>
>	It was no more than a sexual mutilation custom started by some
>primitive peoples.  It was continued with a religious
>justification.  It originated independently several different
>places around the world.  It is not unique to the Hebrews.  
>
>	It is difficult to accept that in one place it is a "covenant
>with god" and in other places it is merely sexual mutilation.
>Unless of course this god was going around making a lot of
>covenants.
>
>

You are just flaming on this one, Matt.  Circumcision among non-Jews in
Europe is and always has been _rare_.  It was rare in the US, too, until
the 1920's, and the development of the practice coincided (a) with the
hospitalization of birth, (b) leftover American prudery about
masturbation, and it was thought that circumcision would discourage that
practice.  Obviously, _nothing_ discourages you.

You are just flaming here, enough already.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun  5 15:47:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41187 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: 4 Jun 1996 00:14:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p0d6o$edg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31b2d903.1022319@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31b2d903.1022319@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>>
>	Everything I post is "negative"? And you say it is all
>"antisemitic garbage"? Alright, you said it, but you didn't show it,
>did you? In fact you said nothing about the elements of the post, did
>you?

Tom, the very same day you posted this you also posted a long thing that
was a potpourri of antisemitic stories, ranging from Ruth Bader Ginsburg's
ethnic cheerleading to how many Jews were buried in Tombstone, Arizona. 
What is the _conceivable_ relevance of any of this unless you just want to
trash Jews?  And you hurt yourself when you post that kind of stuff. IMHO!


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun  5 21:12:30 PDT 1996
Article: 41261 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960531: Allied War Crimes
Date: 5 Jun 1996 16:33:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 37
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p4quc$327@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p419e$mjn@hackberry.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4p419e$mjn@hackberry.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>>You are probably right about that.  The first story I have heard about
the
>>cutting off of breasts comes from the siege of Magdeburg in the 17th
>>Century.  
>
>Where is this report?
>
>
>

Once in awhile it just so happens that I have the text in question not far
away.  The original source for the mastectomies would be Lammert's
"Chronicle" of the first decades of the 17th Century.  It is cited in
"Rats, Lice, and History" by Hans Zinsser, p. 274 (BD&L: n.d.).  Zinsser
also references to Dr. Gabriel Furtenbach's "Jammerchronik" for a
description of atrocities in _Memmingen_ not Magdeburg.
Zinsser's book is also an excellent source book on typhus.

I happened to have the book handy because I just bought it yesterday for a
friend interested in medical history.  It was unavailable for years, and I
haven't read it in over twenty years.  Indeed, I honestly didn't make the
connection until you questioned the source.

But then, it is _not_ Magdeburg.  That means that I probably got the
reference from  who wrote a book on
the 30 Years War.  The sack of Magdeburg is famous among historians,
because it basically toned down the conduct of war for the next 150 years.
 There are atrocity stories from there, but I can't lock on the location.

Suffice to say that the reference to breast-cutting exists at the location
cited, along with hand-cutting and some other atrocity stuff.  I do _try_
to document, you know.  It just takes too much time.
   


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun  6 06:55:32 PDT 1996
Article: 41364 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: 4 Jun 1996 10:50:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 40
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p1if8$hf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31b43f3d.2114722@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31b43f3d.2114722@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>>>	There aren't going to be any "next several decades" to the
>>>Holocaust discussion. The time is drawing nigh. You say, admit, you
>>>tend to "downplay" controversial elements of the story and are accused
>>>of focusing on irrelevance. Could be, I don't read all your stuff. As
>>>far as I can tell, 99% of the story chapters are controversial, open
>>>to great doubts. You may like to divert from these to mundane points,
>>>I don't know for sure, but it is a tactic people use to avoid the gist
>>>of a debate. Barring this, they usually resort to something like your
>>>next paragraph.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The manner in which you are divining percentages is not clear to me.  It
>>would be very easy to argue that 4 million Jews died in the Holocaust,
and
>>that gas chambers were not used to do it, and that Germany has the
>>ultimate responsibility for this.  _Look_, Adenauer _took_ the
>>responsibility for it.  The above position is not my position, but it is
>>apparently the latest position of (much maligned) David Irving, and
basic
>>arithmetic leads me to the conclusion that 66% of the story is therefore
>>not controversial.  OTOH, you can step beyond Irving's position, but
then,
>>his knowledge and his experience with primary documents from the Third
>>Reich is about 10 miles higher than anyone who contributes to this
>>newsgroup.
>>
>	Six sero sixe's "next paragraph" deleted by 606 himself.
>
I deleted it because I said it once but I would be happy to say it again. 
You come up with some good posts, sometimes.  You have an irreverent
attitude and that can be refreshing.  But sometimes your posts are just
out and out Jew bashing and that damages the content of all of your other
posts.





From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:23 PDT 1996
Article: 41401 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960531: Allied War Crimes
Date: 4 Jun 1996 10:49:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p1id1$gt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>> I would like to see how some of the regulars would respond to this
post. 
>> Although I consider part of it unbelievable, there is much in here that
>> I have seen in several other sources.
>
>If that or anything like it really did happen, it's horrifying beyond
>words.

This is an excellent response, Jamie, just the kind of thing I was looking
for.  OTOH, your use of the word *if* is a little coy, IMHO.  Certainly
things _like_ this happened, quite a bit of it as a matter of fact.  Also,
to say that such things were done by those *twisted by war* -- I would
agree, but I think that explains a lot of conduct in WW2 (explanation is
not the same as excuse.)  I also think it's a good idea to remember that a
lot of things happened between 1914 and 1939 to make a lot of people
*twisted* even before the war began.

I don't think it is objectionable to contextualize the Holocaust in terms
of overall brutish behavior in WW2, or to contextualize the Holocaust in
terms of the first half of 20th Century history overall.  I cast my net
wide:  motives will be attributed as they will.  However, once again, I
realize that I am a minority.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun  6 11:16:23 PDT 1996
Article: 41424 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel
Date: 5 Jun 1996 13:02:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 99
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p4ejt$t72@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <1779C14F6BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <1779C14F6BS86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>,
BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) writes:

>
> 
>Finally won over by Ehrlich's theories, I thought I would try my hand at
it:
> 
>It occurred to me that antebellum slavery never really happened.  Or what
I
>really mean is that too much emphasis is placed on it as an event.  Or
>rather,
>what overzealous historianshave called slavery is simply a species of
cash-
>settlement life-indentured laborers.  Don't get me wrong--  the
>"slaveholders"
>(though surely a misnomer) and the institutions which supported the
custom
>are
>fully responsible.But these only accounted for about 4% of the white
popul-
>ation of the South.  So, contrary to what we call "the truth" (completely
>unknowable anyway), there was no organized conspiracy to keep slavery--
that
>is, cash settlement life-indentured labor--  in place.
> 
>--Bruce Borowsky
> 
Two can play this game.  I submit _your_ history of the 20th Century.

Around 1914, 80 million Germans revealed themselves as murderous,
bloodthirsty monsters who delighted in blood and gore.  Actually, a close
analysis reveals that they were always this way, and if the Romans had
only defeated them in the Teutoberger Wald there might have been some
hope.  But anyway ....

In 1914, Germany declared war on Russia, France, and England and raped
Belgium as part of its policy to find "a place in the sun" (code word for
world conquest and Jewish extermination).  After their stupid and
incompetent armies were checked by the Miracle of Mons and the Battle of
the Marne, they dug in along the Aisne for the next four years.  Bored,
the malevolent Huns contented themselves by tossing babies around on their
bayonets, dismembering Belgians and French for sport, torturing children
under express instruction of the Kaiser, and operating a corpse factory
where the blood and bodies of their victims were used for making war
material.   Pretty awful, but, what do you expect from Germans?

In 1917 they shipped Lenin to Russia, and fomented rebellion there.  But
for this, there would have been no Russian Revolution, and heroic and
pious Orthodox armies would have marched under the Brandenberger Tor sing
"God Save the Tsar!"  When the war was over, Germany refused the pay any
reparations, making up all kinds of whiny excuses about famines from the
blockade that killed millions, especially children, but, hey, you know
those Germans, "they are always either at your throat or at your feet" as
Winston Churchill used to say.  In fact, while all of this was going on
the Germans were secretly planning for the next war, which they were
scientifically preparing to be even more damaging and painful than the
first.

The evil Germans, who didn't learn their lesson the first time they got
whipped, voted Hitler dictator by acclamation.  Dancing in the street
ensued when he announced his official program of killing Jews, killing
Slavs, and killing for the sake of killing.  For the next several years
Germans conspired to create the most powerful war machine in the history
of the world, and, beginning in 1939 began a tremendous outbust of
violence and bloodlust.

The ostensible cause for this war was fight over Polish territory, but
everybody knows that's phony.  The _real_ cause for World War Two was the
German desire to kill Jews, kill Slavs, and kill anybody left over.  Far
sighted politicians in Russia had seen this years before:  that's why they
had had a revolution, forced collectivization, forced industrialization,
and periodic party purges -- to keep the Soviet Union militarily
competitive with Germany.  Of course, during this process many millions
inadvertantly died, but Germany forced the Soviet Union to do it. 
Likewise, in WW2, tears rolled down Joseph Stalin's cheeks as he directed
his armies into Moldavia, Eastern Poland, Finland, and the Baltics, with
instructions to safeguard liberties and liquidate any German agents in the
area, like the 4,500 Polish officers at Katyn.

After six years, the Germans were finally beat.  Then the slaughterhouses
were opened.  Camps where millions and millions of innocents were
murdered, almost all of them Jews, by ordinary Germans who went about the
business quite willingly, making soap out of bodies, handbags out of skin,
submarine insulation out of hair, and many many other evil and unspeakable
acts in which all Germans were culpable.  True, 80 million Germans did not
participate in all of these heinous acts, but that's not because they
didn't want to. After the war the Germans started up their typical whining
about lost territories, millions of dead civilians, half a million dead
>from  bombing, and massive rapes.  Well, they started the war, and they
deserved it.

On the other hand, Germans today are _completely different_ and it would
be _wrong_ to hold the Germany of today responsible for the Germany from
1914 to 1945.

 




From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun  7 07:11:22 PDT 1996
Article: 41569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: 6 Jun 1996 16:56:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p7gl7$93t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31b5fc3c.24891900@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31b5fc3c.24891900@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>
>>Any chance of some honest investigation here?
>
>You tell me, Mr. Allen. You tell me.
>
>

About the only thing I am getting out of this thread is that John Morris
lives in a nice house with a wet basement.  Which is one of the reasons
why I focus on interpretive issues.  The facts will fall into place over
time.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun  7 07:11:23 PDT 1996
Article: 41576 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Small details and "big pictures"
Date: 6 Jun 1996 17:17:36 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 209
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p7htg$9lk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p69cd$rqj@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4p69cd$rqj@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>In <4onm05$d2d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:
>
>[conclusion in response to my questions regarding Mr. Ehrlich's
>contention that "class"  was a significant issue in the Holocaust]
>
>>Therefore I do not think that concepts from sociology, the sociology of
>>knowledge, communist ideologies, or other social sciences can be so
easily
>>dismissed as "small details."  Especially since the proposed substitute,
>>"antisemitism" is so vaguely defined.  Indeed it must be, unless it
claims
>>to have some root in empirical reality, in which case it become
>>sociological by default.  [...]
>
>Mr. Ehrlich, I was somewhat surprised to see your suggestion that
>"antisemitism is so vaguely defined" and therefore should give way to
>other factors.  But since the progenitor of this thread was
>precipitated by a quote from Goldhagen's book, perhaps you will find
>some clarity (as I certainly did) in the following.  

Thank you for providing the following:

>
>These are the thoughts of Mr. Adam Reed, a participant in another
>conference where Goldhagen's book is also a topic of discussion
>(published here with permission).
>
>
>
>In reading reactions to Goldhagen, I find that he is often taken to
>task for disregarding the two current (at least among historians
>writing in English and French) theories of antisemitism. Goldhagen's
>picture of a uniquely German antisemitism is reminiscent of a
>third theory, one that seems implicit in the work of current
>Polish historians, which might be called the "Nazi Synthesis" model.
>I think that our discussion may become more meaningful if this
>taxonomy is stated explicitly. So here is my attempt at a
>classification:
>
>1. Nazi antisemitism as an evolved form of traditional Christian
>anti-Judaism. According to this theory, traditional religious and
>economic animosity evolved into contemporary antisemitism as part of
>pervasive anti-modernist (reactionary) ideology. In parts (primarily
>western) of Europe, this anti-modernism was weakened by the success
>of scientific industrialization and its associated ideology of
>political and economic liberalism. Anti-modernism remained a powerful
>force in most of central and Eastern Europe, including southern and
>eastern Germany. The Shoah resulted when the Nazis were able to put
>the organizational and technological culture of more industrialized
>regions of Germany in the service of Bavarian and East-Prussian
>anti-modernist antisemitism. In this view, Bavarian and East-Prussian
>antisemitism did not differ significantly from reactionary
>antisemitism elsewhere in Europe; what made German antisemitism
>capable of carrying out the Shoah was its instrumental assimilation
>of technical and organizational (but not ideological) modernity into
>the service of traditional religious and economic antisemitism.

_Comments_

1) "economic animosity" is precisely a sociological basis to
anti-semitism, as I have argued many times.

2)  The "anti-modernity" argument is also a sociological basis to
anti-semitism, which I have also argued many times.  This goes back at
least the Brittanica article of the 11th edition which I quoted you.

3) the argument that "this anti-modernism was weakened by the success of
scientific industrialization and its associated ideology of political and
economic liberalism" is old wine in a new bottle.  In other words, it has
been well understood at least since Gerschenkron in the '50's that
industrialization created greater dislocations the later it occurred,
because the industrialization "level" became more sophisticated every
decade.  Therefore, France had a harder time of it than England, Germany
more than France, and Russia more than Germany.  The point that I like to
stress is that, if we include the ethnic heterogeneity of Eastern Europe
into the equation, along with Russia, we have an explosive situation.

BTW, scientific industrialization in the West was a success, but only
after the Peterloo Massacre, several French revolts, and the degradation
of Englishmen as we see described in Dickens, Mayhew, and Marx and Engels
(not to forget Hugo in France).  Timing is important.

4)  I will grant the anti-modernism of Bavaria and Prussia, but I am not
sure what underlies the selection of these regions at the expense of
others.  The idea that the Germans were going to use high technology to go
back to a preindustrial lifestyle (SS homesteads on the steppe) goes back
to Rosenberg.  Someone (I forget who) wrote a book arguing this thesis in
the early '80's.  Again, I am a bit puzzled by the phrase "traditional
Christian and economic anti-semitism."  I don't understand why the two
words are necessarily linked, unless we argue that the Jewish position in
European economic life had been articulated on the basis of medieval
Christian social structure.  If that is the case, fine.  But in any case
we are still looking at a sociological argument.

OTOH, it seems to me clear that straight religious (that is,
_superstitious_) antisemitism was still rampant in Eastern Europe
including Russia well into the 20th Century.
>
>2. Nazi antisemitism as a mutant form of colonial/imperialist racism.
>According to this view, propounded primarily by Arendt and echoed in
>recent years by defenders of Christian traditionalism, racism evolved
>to provide a "progressive", "scientific", "enlightened" justification
>for Western European claims of cultural and biological superiority
>over enslaved non-Europeans. 

_Comments_

1)  This is fruitful argument, because it helps explain on more than just
economic grounds why there has been so much progress in the breakdown of
traditional colonial empires after the end of WW2.  It also helps explain
the sharp decline in racist and antisemitic attitudes since that time.  In
other words, confronted with Nazism, when the war was over the Western
Allies (at least) shrunk back, having seen themselves in a glass but
darkly.  I pointed this out over a month ago, and was roundly abused.

In that same post, I also made the colonialism analogy, via Bismarck's
famous dictum, "My map of Africa lies in the East" with similar
repercussions. 

On the other hand, if we take the Leninist model of imperialism as a
higher stage of capitalism, we again encounter the "colonial" argument,
which is why, in fact, the traditional communist interpretation views
fascism as an extension of capitalism.

>Because of its scientistic pretensions,
>racism was integrated into an evolving anti-traditionalist ideology
>that also included anti-traditional humanitarian trends (eugenics,
>euthanasia, and sexual freedom movements) and atavism (neo-paganism,
>Realpolitik, Lebesraum).

_Comments_

This is a big grab bag of ideas that needs more articulation, IMHO.  I
only note the continued prevalence of many of these ideas in our
contemporary society. A word to the wise is sufficient.

> When Germany lost its overseas empire in the
>aftermath of WWI, German racism was re-focused internally, on
>un-assimilated "Asiatic" populations of Jews and Gypsies in Europe.
>In this view, the Shoah resulted from the integration of biological
>antisemitism, as a form of "scientific" biological racism, into the
>ideology of a "progressive" elite having at its disposal a modern
>technological and organizational infrasructure that enabled
>industrial genocide.

_Comments_

I doubt this.  First of all, German racism to "justify" its eastward
expansion was in place long before WW1 was over (and see above). 
Secondly, there were millions of Germans in Eastern Europe, most of them
middle class, some of them upper middle class, and Germany had a
legitimate problem in deciding whether to "in-gather" them, or expand
outward to absorb them.

The concept of industrial genocide has been tremendously overworked in the
past 50 years, IMHO.  But enough on that.

>
>3. The "Nazi Synthesis" model acknowledges the (more-or-less mutually
>independent) existence of both traditional (anti-modernist) and racist
>("progressive") antisemitism in pre-Nazi Germany, and credits the Nazi
>movement with the synergistic fusion of these two strands into a
>unique exterminationist antisemitism specific to Germany. According to
>this model, German society was deeply divided - at least since
>Kulturkampf - between progressive and traditionalist factions that
>were already fighting, through the 1920s, a low-intensity civil war
>against each other. Although the antisemitism of the two camps had
>different origins, it was directed against the same victims, and so
>could be fused and used as an ideological bridge between the modernist
>and traditionalist factions in German society, eventually uniting them
>in single-minded service to the exterminationist goal.

This sounds like (a) sociologically based (i.e., economic) antisemitism,
plus (b) racially based justification for German expansion.  I have argued
both of these points, and I have also argued that "racism" is an ideology
derived for socioeconomic reality.  From which I conclude that you really
do not disagree with me that the antisemitism that engendered the
Holocaust was specific to the social and economic upheavals in Germany and
Eastern Europe.  Which means that it was sociologically based, which was
my point to begin with.

If THAT is so, that would explain why (a) Germany rebounded from Nazism so
quickly, (b) it would also explain why the Soviet Union became less
radical and more flabby after the main industrialization hurdle was
cleared, it would suggest (c) that Holocausts (including the threat of any
future Jewish Holocaust) will be coupled with sharp socio-economic shifts,
especially when directed from the top down, and therefore these are the
kinds of quantitative adjustments we should keep an eye out for, it
further suggests (d) that *The Holocaust* was specific to these
socio-economic shifts, and therefore will not recur in either Europe or
the United States, and that therefore (e) discussion of Holocaust
revisionism is not as much of a threat as people seem to think it is (at
least in terms of anti-free speech laws, etc.).

OTOH, there are these considerations: (a) while the threat to Jews in
Israel will continue while the rest of the Arab nations undergo the
"modernization process" it should follow that this threat will gradually
reduce over the next few decades, until it disappears altogether, (b) the
*computer revolution* as a kind of further-stage modernization will
continue to generate anxiety and therefore it is incumbent on all states
at that stage of development to make provision for the employment and
dignity of all of their citizens including those incapable of computer
literacy so that such anxiety does not fasten on *traditional* targets,
such as Jews, or other minorities.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun  7 07:11:23 PDT 1996
Article: 41577 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer dishonestly deletes text from response
Date: 6 Jun 1996 18:32:47 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p7maf$bmu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p6v43$7vn@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4p6v43$7vn@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>
>    Any more lies you would like to tell?  I'm sure the lurkers must be
>very impressed by the way you fight for the truth by lying through your
>teeth.  Please, impress them some more.  You are making Tom Moran look
>good, and I would not have thought that possible.
>
>
>

I am sure that the lurkers -- both of them -- are not terribly impressed
by anything on this board.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun  7 19:34:44 PDT 1996
Article: 41679 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960531: Allied War Crimes
Date: 7 Jun 1996 07:29:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 21
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p93q4$ro7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p72t4$j9d@hackberry.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4p72t4$j9d@hackberry.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>This incident Ehrlich describes was in the early 1600's. I'm no great
>scholar on the 30 Year's War so I won't make any statements other than
>recollections of old history classes. :-) I seem to recall that
>professional armies were not the norm at this time. The makeup of the
>armies tended to be mercenary. These armies tended to be
>undisciplined. I understand that Cromwell had the first controllable
>army and he could order the treatment of the defeated to be a certain
>way. As usual Ehrlich seems to all over the map of history and not
>taking into account the obvious details. 
>
>

Your suggestion, I take it, is that _atrocities of the type enumerated_
would be more common in undisciplined armies.  The Red Army was notorious
for being undisciplined. The German Army was famous for its discipline. 
Draw the appropriate conclusions.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun  7 19:34:45 PDT 1996
Article: 41682 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Lying about atomic bombing and Japanese surrender
Date: 7 Jun 1996 07:36:20 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 35
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p947k$s04@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31b682b3.59319418@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31b682b3.59319418@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>
>On 5 Jun 1996 22:01:18 -0400, dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>
>>J.M. Ockerbloom writes:
>>
>>>The only author I can think of that's proposed a number as high as you
>>>give is David Irving, a darling of the "Holocaust is a myth" set, and
>>>someone considered by most historians to be at best a questionable
>>source.
>>
>>This is, at best, an uninformed statement.  The conflict that exists
>>between David Irving and the trolls of academia has to do with his
>>interpretation of collected facts and figures, not the details
themselves.
>> Irving is widely acknowledged, even by his severe critics, to have
>>collected, read and summarized more documents from the scattered
National
>>Socialist archives than anyone else in the world.  If you choose to try
to
>>dismiss a portion of his work, please be honest and accurate about which
>>portion.  Thank you.
>
>This is at best an incomplete statement. The conflict over Irving's
>interpretation of the facts has also been the subject of a libel suit
>in Britain where Irving paid substantial damages because of one of his
>carefully researched books. Irving is a Hitler apologist and
>(erstwhile?) Holocaust denier. If you are going to slobber over him,
>at least tell the whole story.

A remarkable riposte, in which Mr. Morris manages to accomplish the
rhetorical equivalent of writing with both hands: he delivers two
gratuitous ad hominems in the space of two short sentences.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun  7 21:15:44 PDT 1996
Article: 41701 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: 7 Jun 1996 13:09:30 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 84
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p9noa$86j@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p9hri$nek@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4p9hri$nek@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McVay OBC) writes:

>ud  wrote:
>
>>women and children.  It wasn't the Australian who firebombed Dresden
>>killing over 100,000 civilians in one day.  We could go on about this,
>
>And how do you know (1) how many died at this "Dresden," and
>(2) that there was such a place as "Dresden" during this
>so-called "war?"
>
>The Dresden Museum itself cites 35,000 victims. You cite
>100,000. Therefore there was no bombing.
>
>That is called "revisionist scholarship."

As opposed to conventionalist scholarship, which would go something like
this:

It is calculated that 1,500 Allied bombers flew over Germany on February
14, 1945.  Each of these bombers was capable of carrying 200,000 tons in
incendiary bombs.  Although skeptics claim that that amount of tonnage
could not possibly be kept airborne, a secret memo, unsigned and
unstamped, from Arthur Harris to Lord Beaverbrook claimed that "each of
our bombers can carry 200,000 tons in incendiary bombs" so that settles
that.  Therefore 300,000,000 tons of bombs were dropped on Dresden.

At a subsequent trial, it was stated that all documentation entered into
the record would be considered as facts in the view of the court. 
Pertaining to the bombing of Dresden, there were two affidavits: one, from
a former RAF official, who penned a bizarre confession in which he claimed
that no less than 25 million people were killed in the bombing of Dresden.
 This RAF official, apparently grief-stricken, beat himself to death with
a tire iron while in prison.  The other affidavit came from an individual
who has never been identified, which largely corroborates the RAF
official's account.

During the trial, it was not permitted to question the validity of the
charge, the evidence entered into the record, or the lack of forensic
evidence.  Not surprisingly, none of the defendants bothered to question
facts that they were not allowed to question.  Visitors to the Dresden
site found to their surprise, a magnificent city of Baroque architecture
lined with trees.  It was claimed however that subsequent to the bombing,
Allied paratroops had landed at the site and removed all trace of the
crime.  In any case, there are numerous witnesses who confirm the dreadful
action: although they differ in many respects they agree on the central
charge -- Dresden was Bombed.

It has since been pointed out that it would not be possible to rebuild an
entire city in a matter of hours.  This has led to much squabbling on the
Usenet.  It has since been decided that what really happened was this:  as
the incendiary bombs rained down on the city, the inhabitants _inhaled_
them, subjecting themselves to spontaneous combustion whereby any traces
of their persons disappeared.  Since it is known that 8.2 million people
died in the bombing (see below), it follows that each individual inhaled
36.6 tons of incendiary bombs. This may appear questionable, but for some
little known experiments published in a scientific paper which prove
conclusively that a one pound rat can consume 488 times its body weight in
incendiary bombs. 488 times one pound times 150 pounds (average human body
weight) equals 73,200 pounds or 36.6 two thousand pound tons. QED.  On
second thought, maybe there weren't that many bombs dropped, but it
doesn't really matter.

As to the population of the city, it is calculated that if 1 train
carrying 1,000 people to the city of Dresden arrived every hour for one
year the population of the city would be 8,760,000.  But in 1946 the
population of the city was only 560,000.  Therefore, 8,200,000 died in the
bombing of Dresden.  This is confirmed by an analysis of train records,
which show that, in fact, in 1943 _one train arrived every hour_.  Of
course, trains also left at the same rate, but we know that they didn't
have any people on them.

So much for the destruction of Dresden.

  










From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  8 06:42:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41752 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A Relevant Quote About Nuremberg
Date: 7 Jun 1996 15:08:18 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 23
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p9un2$a94@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p988c$4vs@pine.netten.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader


>From   by Bradley F. Smith (no, not _that_
Bradley Smith!), New York: 1977.  page 66

... The British wanted to simplify the evidence, take stock of what
existed, pick the defendants, and go to trial immediately.  The Americans,
OTOH, contended that what they wanted was not merely to convict a handful
of defendants but the spread the net as widely as possible and even
suggested preparing an indictment of a hundred or so co-conspirators.  The
French and the Russians bounced back and forth ...

On August 13, the Soviets suggested a plan that offered a way out. 
Instead of collectively haggling about the case as a whole, the Soviets
recommended that it be divided into four parts.  They would handle the war
crimes and crimes against humanity that had occurred in Eastern Europe,
and the French would cover similar crimes that had taken place in the
West.  The British would prepare the case for crimes against peace, and
the Americans would deal with conspiracy and criminal organizations. ...
In fact, the four prosecutions seized on the idea with great enthusiasm,
and it not only served to delineate responsibility for preparing evidence,
but became the blueprint for the actual presentations at Nuremberg. 



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  8 06:42:47 PDT 1996
Article: 41798 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust saved from drowning
Date: 6 Jun 1996 17:43:47 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p7jej$aab@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31b6e3af.3998155@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31b6e3af.3998155@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>	"This week the French sports daily L'Equipe condemned the team,
>saying , '"France, especially France, should not present a '"show"' of
>this kind in Atlanta."'

You mean it would be in good taste if some other country did it?  Certain
topics are inappropriate.  Imagine a Super Bowl halftime "Salute to the
Victims of Slavery!" (I will leave the choreography to your imagination.)



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  8 12:41:17 PDT 1996
Article: 41858 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel
Date: 7 Jun 1996 10:45:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 50
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p9fav$48c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4p7nl3$11o@boris.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4p7nl3$11o@boris.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
writes:

>> 
>>While I am not as well read as you are, but I honestly have never heard
>anyone
>>version of events-- except on day-time talk-shows.  And please canvass
other
>>anti-revisionists on this newsgroup;  ask them if they would endorse it.
 I
>>doubt it.
>
>If that is his reasoning, it is ridiculous.
>
>> 
>>`Pure exterminationism,' I think, is a straw man you attack in order to
>occupy
>>a position that has been long occupied.
>> 
>> 
>
>

On the contrary, "pure exterminationism" is the thesis that underlies Lucy
Dawidowicz' "War Against the Jews" as well as Goldhagen's "Hitler's
Willing Executioners".  In general, my "caricature" was cobbled together
>from  general lay and professional historical writings on the subject of
modern German history that I have read in the past 30 years.  Also, my
caricature is not very far removed from characterizations of Germans that
I heard frequently in my youth.

Of course, if you are going to say that the aim was _not_ pure
extermination, then you have to argue something else, like:  a) a
functionalist position in which exterminations arose in the course of WW2
in response to contingencies, or b) that the extermination imperative was
compromised by other considerations, for example, by labor demands.
These are points rarely granted on this board.

In the same way, if you want to take Goldhagen's tack, and gibbet all
Germans of the time for the exterminations,  then you have to explain why
the conventionalist insistence on the great secrecy and double-cloaking of
the extermination policy.  The exterminations were done with such great
regard for secrecy that euphemisms of resettlement are constantly used,
_even in internal government memoranda_, that several of the camps
disappeared without a trace, and that the forensic evidence of the bodies
was destroyed with _hardly_ a trace.

Now I will grant you your point, but then you have to explain to me why
the German people had to be kept in the dark about these matters.  After
all, the Allies had been claiming exterminations since 1942.   


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun  8 12:41:18 PDT 1996
Article: 41887 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The case of the missing file
Date: 7 Jun 1996 12:26:22 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4p9l7e$79g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31b6f1cc.7611781@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31b6f1cc.7611781@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:

>		
>	The center most thing to the Holocaust story is the gassing of
>millions, yet in Nizkor files you will not be able to find anything
>under 'gas' or 'Zyclone B'. Interesting.
>
>

That is because the files completely evaporated in ten minutes.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun  9 10:22:49 PDT 1996
Article: 42013 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Relevant Quote About Nuremberg
Date: 8 Jun 1996 12:12:56 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 32
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4pc8q8$36d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>I don't have that book of Smith's.  Is it worth reading, in your opinion?
>
>

Yes, I think it is a very good book, because it doesn't just rehash the
usual sequence of trial events (for that I would particularly recommend
Davidson's book from the 1960's as well as G. M. Gilbert's "Nuremberg
Diary" in which the American Jewish psychologists records thoughts and
reactions from the defendants on a day by day basis).

What makes Smith's book particularly good is that he had access to the
deliberations of the judges, and in particular the copious notes that
Biddle made of the deliberations.  In this way we can get a better
understanding as to why the decisions were made the way they were, how the
judges had misgivings about various convictions, and so forth.  In
addition, Smith is fair.  He discusses the myopia of the judges with
regard to their own excesses (strategic bombing) as well as the
strangeness of charging Germany with Conspiracy to Wage Aggressive War and
Crimes Against Peace while noting that the USSR, by means of its secret
pact with Hitler to divide Poland in August, 1939 (strongly rumored in
1977), was in fact basically also guilty of these crimes.

On the other hand it is not a whitewash of Nazi crimes either.  It is
fairly and soberly written, avoiding excessive rhetoric on either side
(unlike Conot's book -- there are at least _two_ mainstream histories of
the Trials from the '60's that are better).  Finally, it made me think.  




From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun  9 10:22:50 PDT 1996
Article: 42146 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: `Honest' in German & a parallel
Date: 8 Jun 1996 13:14:22 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 64
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4pccde$3sf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4pbmvg$j6d@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4pbmvg$j6d@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>Hmmm.... "cobbled".  A rather apt description of the post to which you
>refer, but since you mention it (and because you do appear to have a
>penchant for labelling), I'm sure you wouldn't begrudge me an
>indulgence.  
>
>I think I'll exercise _my_ "freedom to speculate", Mr. Ehrlich.   I
>rather think you enjoy "cobbling".  In fact, I've noticed a lot of
>"cobbling" in your posts.  But I've also noticed that in your
>"cobbling" you do tend to use artificial products, rather than the
>real thing.  The soles remind me of plastic, and you do tend to use
>very flimsey laces.
>
>Yep, "Ehrlich the Cobbler."  Kind of has a nice ring to it, don't you
>think?!  Not quite the cachet of "Fiddler on the Roof" -- perhaps we
>should give that one to Mr. Vowel Movement who does seem preoccupied
>with the holes on one roof.  Maybe you can cobble some shoes for him,
>because he may need some - if he ever finds a leg to stand on.
>
>Oh, btw, Mr. Ehrlich.  A friend of mine recently subscribed to AOL.
>Subscribers to AOL, as you know, have the privilege of finding the
>name behind the nick.  He let me know what yours is.  
>
>Now, I woudn't dream of publishing it here (because I wouldn't want to
>see your "cobbling" efforts diverted by those predatory net babes whom
>you fear might disturb the equilibrium of your marriage).  
>
>But I do find it strange, since if I recall correctly you did tell us
>that you _are_ an historian, that a cursory net search didn't turn up
>anything that you've published.  Then again, I recall that you did
>make reference, in at least one post, to some "ghost writing" that
>you've done.  Are all your published works "ghosts", Mr. Ehrlich?
>
>
Hilary, this is altogether just the sleaziest thing I have ever read.  You
have misrepresented my claims both as to vocation and attainments, you
have lied about my claiming authorship, and you have misstated the extent
of my ghost work.

In addition, you have displayed a truly base and mean-spirited curiosity
about my identity, which gives the lie to the claim oft repeated by Mssrs.
Graves and Curtis that the only thing that counts here is what one says on
the board.  Finally, you have displayed contempt for my personal privacy
in this post and have coupled it with a threat of exposing me.

As a matter of fact, there are several individuals on this board who know
a lot more about me than my name, including some of your close associates.
 That is because they have treated our differences of opinion honorably
and with candor.  Early on in my six week tenure here, I thought that I
shouldn't even bother to be here, because of the venom and ad hominem
displayed in the posts.  I was dissuaded from that path by the e-mails of
those individuals who told me that I should not take board criticism
_personally_ and further that they felt that this was in fact an
appropriate forum for discussing _true_ revisionism, rather than just the
proposition or refutation of neo-Nazi and and antisemitism.

I now see, however, that my patient replies to your endless leading
questions has succeeding only in calling forth a truly repulsive message. 
Obviously, your acquired taste for ad hominem must now be rooted in a very
deep and base desire to see me leave. And you have succeeded at that.  So
I now unsubsribe from this newsgroup.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun  9 10:22:51 PDT 1996
Article: 42224 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Oliver's Army (was Re: 960531: Allied War Crimes)
Date: 9 Jun 1996 12:14:22 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 89
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4pet8u$noa@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4pekmk$s1q@boris.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4pekmk$s1q@boris.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
writes:

>
>BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (borowsky) wrote:
>
>>In article <4p9l30$5io@news.enter.net>
>>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes:
>> 
>>>
>>>>   ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>>>
>>>>  Your suggestion, I take it, is that _atrocities of the type
enumerated_
>>>>  would be more common in undisciplined armies.  The Red Army was
>notorious
>>>>  for being undisciplined. The German Army was famous for its
discipline.
>>>>  Draw the appropriate conclusions.
>>>
>>>        On the other hand, the Waffen SS  had the reputation, even in
the
>>>Wehrmacht, as being undisciplined.
>>>
>> 
>>This begins to stray from the topic, but fair warning given:
>> 
>>On another post on this thread, someone referred to Cromwell's New Model
>Army,
>>which, as he said, was the first disciplined, "controllable" army. 
Cromwell
>>wanted "godly" men in his ranks, and fighting for the Parliamentary
cause,
>they
>>seem to have deserved that reputation.  But under Gen. George Monk, more
of
>>a professional soldier, the Irish and Scottish campaigns were notorious
for
>>their brutality.  Even today, Cromwell is a dirty word in Scotland.
>
>That was me and I was refering only to Cromwell's control of it.
>Remember, the Irish to the British were like the Jews were to the
>Germans to some degree.
>
>> 
>>All this by way of saying that perhaps an army's conduct can't be
predicted
>(or
>>explained) necessarily in terms of its discipline or the reputation it
holds
>>within its army.
>
>
>I think it depends upon the strength of its leadership. Winfield Scott
>did a marvelous job with his crew in Mexico while Z. Taylor didn't.
>
>
I am supposed to be out of here, but a few comments on this strictly
military string.  First of all, "Soldiers of Destruction" (Syndor, I
think, is the author) discusses how the Totenkopf Dvision started shooting
POWs en masse as early as 1940.  This set a pattern for Waffen SS
divisions throughout the war.

Max Hastings' "Das Reich" gives detailed description of this SS division's
march northward during the Normandy campaign, along with interdiction by
Allied bombers and British agents who were air dropped in to coordinate
local partisans.  As a result, a number of German soldiers were murdered. 
This led to a disciplined mass hanging in the town of Tilly (100 men were
hanged from lamp posts), as well as the totally inexcusable massacre at
Ouradour sur Glane (a sort of French My Lai).  Reprisals are a legitimate
act of war, but here again the Waffen SS got completely out of hand.  In
discussing the matter with Waffen SS survivors, they indicated to Hastings
that things like Ouradour were an everyday occurrence on the Eastern
Front.

In Normandy, (cf. Max Hastings and John Keegan) The "Hitler-jugend"
division shot Canadian POWs en masse on a couple of occasions, which of
course led to reprisals by the Canadians.  In the Battle of the Bulge is
was of course elements of the "Leibstandarte AH" that conducted the
Malmedy Massacre (consult Trevor Dupuy's posthumous work on the subject). 
OTOH, the conduct of the "Frundsberg" and "Hohenstaufen" divisions appear
to have been above reproach in terms of unnecessary atrocities (cf.
Cornelius Ryan, "A Bridge Too Far").

There are several factors that compromised Waffen SS performance.  First,
the composition of units was a grab bag: ethnic Germans from all over
Europe, adventurers from all over Europe, and many divisions which
strictly speaking weren't "German" at all.  Second, 
 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 22 13:46:52 PDT 1996
Article: 70 of alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!sinetnews!newssinet!uwvax!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: 22 Jun 1996 13:11:15 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qh9fj$iqr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55413 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:70

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>Well, they got their fill of skeptics!  Not a single one of the people I
>mentioned above, with the occasional exception of Greg Raven, chooses to
>return to alt.revisionism.  They say it's because we regulars on
>alt.revisionism engage in mudslinging and generally aren't professional
>enough for them. 

And they are right.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 22 13:53:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45300 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!col.hp.com!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: 22 Jun 1996 13:17:27 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qh9r7$iu5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qfe8m$8i1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qfe8m$8i1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>Samuel Gringauz, a Jewish
>historian who was himself interned in the Kaunas ghetto during the war,
>wrote: Most of the memoirs and reports [of Holocaust survivors] are
>full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic
>effects,
>overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
>lyricism,
>unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks and apologies. (Jewish Social
>Studies, New York, January 1950, Vol. 12, p. 65.).

Sounds like a worthy successor in integrity to the lamented Simon Dubnow.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 22 13:53:31 PDT 1996
Article: 45305 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!realtime.net!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: 22 Jun 1996 13:14:43 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qh9m3$isi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qfe8m$8i1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qfe8m$8i1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>Letters and postcards that arrived in the Warsaw ghetto from Jews who,
>by
>all accounts, had been deported to Treblinka, indicate that the camp was
>a transit center from where Jews were resettled in the occupied Soviet
>territories.
>These messages, which arrived from settlements and camps in Belarus
>(Byelorussia),
>Ukraine, and even Russia proper (near Smolensk), were written by Jews
>who
>had been deported in 1942. Some letters and cards had been sent by mail
>and some had arrived through the underground. Many mentioned that the
>senders
>were working hard, but confirmed that they (and often their children)
>were
>being fed. (note 47)

The refutation of this point requires a conspiracy theory no less baroque
than the one that argues the _no_ mass murders of Jews took place in WW2.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 22 17:16:25 PDT 1996
Article: 45344 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Quote that Started It All
Date: 22 Jun 1996 14:13:36 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qhd4g$kf1@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qh5ba$1jae@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader



  The British wanted to simplify the evidence, take stock of what
existed, pick the defendants, and go to trial immediately.  The Americans,
on the other hand, contended that what they wanted was not merely to
convict a handful of defendants but to spread the net as widely as
possible .... The French and the Russians bounced back and forth ....

On August 13, the Soviets suggested a plan that offered a way out. 
Instead of collectively haggling about the case as a whole, the Soviets
recommended that it be divided into four parts.  They would handle the war
crimes and crimes against humanity that had occurred in Eastern Europe,
and the French would cover similar crimes that had taken place in the
West. .... In fact, the four prosecution teams seized in the idea with
great enthusiasm, and it not only served to delineate responsibility for
preparing evidence, but became the blueprint for the actual presentations
at Nuremberg. 

>from  *Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg* Bradley F. Smith, NY:1977, p. 66



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 23 08:13:07 PDT 1996
Article: 45402 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gerstein confesses
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:25:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi9u7$t4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qi2h5$c3h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qi2h5$c3h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>His testimony **was** accepted in Nuremberg: PS 1553, (French) RF-350.
>
>	Which one?  
>
>
>
>
>

His testimony _was not_ accepted at the IMT -- which was the point.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 23 08:13:08 PDT 1996
Article: 45468 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: 23 Jun 1996 03:40:46 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qisdu$81k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qi2n7$c3h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qi2n7$c3h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>For those who cannot make it to the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz to examine
>>Rascher's origional letter rearding the testing of combat gases (and for
>>whimpering idiots like the Giwer-Troll who cannot comprehend what
archives
>>are for) I have attached an image file of the letter (with trnalsation,
>>from _Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945_ (ISBN 3-87490-528-4), p.169;
>>(Plate 356).
>
>

In the midst of gratuitous insults at the Giwer, I have to say that I fail
to see the point.  The letter in question raises the possibility of
testing combat gases on inmates.  No one has ever claimed that this
happened.  Furthermore, we don't even know what kind of gasses are
involved.  World War One vesicants, chokers, or lachrymants?  Nerve agents
like Tabun, sarin or soman?  Who knows?  This is all hypothetical.

But I only bring this up to alert you all to the fact that the new film
*The Rock* slings a lot of foolishness on the subject of nerve agents. 
Sorry, conventionalists, don't try using it as source material.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 23 08:13:08 PDT 1996
Article: 45470 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.net66.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.texas.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron Exposes His Bigotry and Ignorance - Again
Date: 23 Jun 1996 03:46:21 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qisod$846@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ccc234.1900516@news.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

In article <31ccc234.1900516@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>>And that is what the Nizkor bunny does: over, and over, and over.
>
>What is the Nizkor bunny, Alan? You going to keep playing this stupid
>game or come clean?
>
>
>

And what is your stupid game, pal?  Or do you just want to insult me by
lower casing my name?  Once again, ad hominem triumphs, for people who
can't wait to get off by attacking people.  Poor baby!  Haven't had any
fresh meat in awhile?




From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 23 11:18:07 PDT 1996
Article: 45402 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gerstein confesses
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:25:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi9u7$t4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qi2h5$c3h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qi2h5$c3h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>His testimony **was** accepted in Nuremberg: PS 1553, (French) RF-350.
>
>	Which one?  
>
>
>
>
>

His testimony _was not_ accepted at the IMT -- which was the point.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 23 11:18:08 PDT 1996
Article: 45548 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 05:20:27 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 45
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qj28r$9lp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ccbfaf.1255182@news.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31ccbfaf.1255182@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>And where have you been, Alan? All this time you have been agreeing
>with this moronic troll? Well, glad you have come out of the denier
>closet. Have you been having fun using all of those folks that
>actually thought you were an upstanding functionalist. I for one know
>better.
>
>You make me sick.
>
>

You are such a birdbrain.  I don't have the time to let you make me sick. 
I have stated many times where I stand.  I am not going to repeat what
_my_ null hypothesis is to someone who is severely mentally challenged and
whose reactive and testosterone-dripping posts constitute the best
possible advertisement for the revisionist position.

Giwer's posts in recent days have stuck to the details from the war crimes
tribunals.  All such posts are legitimate fodder for this NG.  It is up to
*fighters of hate* like you to step forward and endorse all of this
balderdash, or else admit that it is false or doubtful testimony.  You
have done neither.  You never get past letter *A* as in ad hominem.  So
you get it back, see? 

Meanwhile, my main sticking point with Giwer, namely, what I would
consider gratuitous slurs against Jews, have been largely absent. So I
will compliment him on that one.  And since the conventionalists have now
started another campaign to either ignore him, or destroy him, I am going
to defend him. Here. Now.

You are so blind that you have no conception of what a good Nazi or NKVD
boy you would be.  On second thought, you do make me sick.

Meanwhile, jump to whatever silly conclusions you like, just don't hurt
yourself in the process.  I will call things as I see them, giving credit
where credit is due on both sides, and slinging garbage to garbage slung. 
What?  Did you think it requires some special _skill_ to kick out your
vociferous, angry, frustrated trash?

Maybe some day you will find some other way to get off in life other than
by engaging in stupid ad hominems on the Usenet.  But I doubt it.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 23 13:48:49 PDT 1996
Article: 45566 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: 23 Jun 1996 06:02:39 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 85
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qj4nv$9vi@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qiva4$3nm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qiva4$3nm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

> So, if we dismiss the Holocaust becuase
>>of some testimonies which are untrue, do we also dismiss the
>>bombing of Dresden because of these testimonies? yes or no?

The above is actually a query from Professor Keren.  My answer is this:  I
don't believe everything I hear about Dresden, and I don't believe
everything I hear about the Holocaust.  The number of people who deny the
Holocaust, in the sense that millions of Jews perished as a result (direct
or indirect) of National Socialist German policies is very small, and I
don't think that it includes more than one or two people _in_ this News
Group and certainly _nobody_ in the present discussion.

The polarization on this board here has to do with two themes: the
_extent_ of gassing as a means of execution, and the _intentionality_ of
the German Nazi program.  My skepticism about the extent of either of
these positions has been clearly articulated.  Since I, for one, have
neither the time nor the resources to settle either issue one way or the
other to my own complete satisfaction I have tended to shy away from these
issues.  And my reward is to be accused of whitewashing.  

While we are on the subject, however, I would like someone to explain to
me when it was decided that the death toll at Majdanek (which supposedly
used Zyklon B) should be lowered from 1.5 million to 50,000.  I say this
because Alex Werth (*Russia at War*, 1960), and Lucy Dawidowicz (*War
Against the Jews*, 1974) both cite the higher number.  These kinds of
changes are among the reasons why people become skeptical in re the entire
*Gas Chamber Controversy* in the first place.

Then, of course, I would be asked to prove the counterfactual.  But I
can't do that, since I lack the expertise to do so.  But I do have two
eyes.  And I can see that people who argue the opposite position are
harrassed and imprisoned, and threatened with deportation.  And I see that
51 years after the fact people still can't make up their minds about what
happened who what where.  Bolts on the floor.  You have got be kidding. 
All of this should have been settled in 1945.  Not that it makes any
difference, in the larger scheme of things, regarding the suffering and
mass murder of the Jews!

But it is the conventionalist side that _insists_ on making the assembly
line mass murder process the centerpiece of the Holocaust, when in fact
there are tons of data that, humanistically speaking, are far more
enlightening and edifying in terms of bringing home the stark horror of
what was endured.

But please note that no one _here_ is *denying* that the East European
Jewish community was destroyed, the ony caveat, which, I think was raised
by me, is that the local nationalists and the Soviet Union probably had
more to do with that process than we tend to recognize.  And please note
than no one is *denying* that millions of Jews lost their lives, the only
caveat, raised by some others, but not by me, is whether the number who
perished was to some degree _less_ than six million.

So now we are arguing about three things:  (1) extent of gassing as means
of execution, (2) degree to which the program was pre-planned or
contradicted by other initiatives, and one more, (3) what it all means.

Of course, (3) is _entirely_ in the realm of interpretation.  But it is
precisely this point that generates the most heat.  Was the Holocaust the
worst thing that ever happened, or was it just war as usual?  Were the
Germans uniquely evil in WW2, or were they a little less bad than the
Soviets, and only slightly worse than the Allies?  Was it part of a larger
socioeconomic process that affected Eastern Europe, which took two world
wars to settle?  This last has been my hobby horse, which I prefer because
it makes sense to me.  But, again, it is dismissed as *whitewashing*
generally by small minds who can't get through the day without a dose of
virile hatred towards Germans.  And in the last analysis issues of
interpretation are just these: value judgments, and people are free to
make up their own minds.  No amount of name calling, bellowing, and 500
feet of scanned conventionalist prose will change that.  To name only the
milder forms of response which the conventionalists (which, I am sorry to
say, appears to be a hotbed for crypto-fascist wannabes) will sometimes
use.









  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:59:03 PDT 1996
Article: 45658 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news.algonet.se!eua.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Poor team" KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: 23 Jun 1996 04:28:44 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qiv7s$8r4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qigum$bsh@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qigum$bsh@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>	The fact that you have credulously accepted statements just
because a 
>nazi made them does not mean that anybody in his right mind will accept
them
>as 
>true. 

I wonder if this opinion would be as fervently held if the word *survivor*
was substituted for the word *nazi*.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:59:04 PDT 1996
Article: 45671 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: IF
Date: 23 Jun 1996 01:05:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qija4$45s@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qigdr$bsh@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qigdr$bsh@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>
>	The ball's in your court L'il Tommy.  It's time to prove -- once
again -- 
>that your mouth has written a check your body can't cash.
>
>	--YFE

Nicely phrased!  I will borrow it and use it on Mike Curtis.  He's just
looking for an outlet for agression in the first place.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:59:04 PDT 1996
Article: 45702 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:59:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8e0$am@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>The point being, perhaps, that Mr. Thomas acknowledges that
>"revisionists" choose to engage in "propagandizing of a base sort" -
>as opposed to legitimate presentation of verifiable documentation to
>support their "arguments".
>
>

All of the supremely apt quotes that Giwer has posted have been
verifiable, indeed, most of them have the imprimatur of Nuremberg on them,
which is more than can be said for many of the others.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:59:05 PDT 1996
Article: 45703 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving's 'Goebbels' book now available
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:59:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8en$aq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qhufi$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhufi$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>Mr. Coons, I think both you and Mr. Hitchens have missed the key point
>of St. Martin's decision.  Specifically, as Mr. Graves noted, "the
>book did not meet their standards" and St. Martin's exercised their
>right not to publish.
>
>Would you deny a publisher the right to have "standards", Mr. Coons?

St. Martin's, which published cheesy books about the Unabomer and OJ
Simpson obviously has no standards at all.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:59:06 PDT 1996
Article: 45704 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:00:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8fb$bg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhuf2$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>>>It might also be interesting to see an analysis of the number of
incidents
>>>of Ken McVay and Dan Keren repeatedly posting the same archival quotes,
>>>and how many of these produced no thread, not even one response.
>
>Perhaps Mr. Thomas fails to realize that unlike "revisionist" quotes,
>the material posted by Mr. McVay and Dr. Keren are appreciated by the
>readership of this newsgroup for the informative documents that they
>are intended to be.  Unlike the wastes of bandwidths that precipitated
>this particular discussion, they are relevant to the topics under
>discussion

Let me get this straight: Someone did a poll of the readership of alt.rev.
and found that they prefer to read the informative documents of Mssrs.
McVay and Keren, while the informative documents of Mssrs. Giwer et al.
are not appreciated.  I doubt this.  I suspect that someone comes to
alt.rev. to find out what is here.  They do not come here to be told one
side of the story.   If only one side of the story was _allowed_ this news
group would not even exist.  Furthermore, Mr. Giwer's series of exposes
are the foolishness that went on at Nuremberg has clearly convinced the
lurkers.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:59:07 PDT 1996
Article: 45705 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Teblinka [was g*werspam Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann']
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:00:35 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 30
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8g3$bv@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qi2u2$hpv@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qi2u2$hpv@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>>
>>The refutation of this point requires a conspiracy theory no less
baroque
>>than the one that argues the _no_ mass murders of Jews took place in
WW2.
>
>What point? That some Jews might have believed the story that they were
>being "resettled"? Or at the very least told this story to loved ones
left
>behind? I see no point in refuting that point.
>
>But is there any evidence whatsoever that Jews actually were "resettled"?

>There's quite a bit of evidence that "resettlement" was a ephemism for
>murder. Why would the Nazis "resettle" their sworn enemies along the
>fragile supply lines on the Eastern Front? Say what you will about
>Hitler's prowess as a military genius, but somehow that doesn't seem
>rational, unless Jews were being "resettled" into mass graves.

RIch, I have _no doubts_ that many _did_ end up in mass graves for one
reason or another.  The point is that these postcards and letters were
sent _after_ these people were in Treblinka, from locations like Minsk,
Smolensk, and Kiev.  Nobody, except a conventionalist, ever pretended that
the history of the Holocaust was easy, or simplistic.





From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:59:07 PDT 1996
Article: 45706 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Teblinka (sic!)
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:00:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 30
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8gj$cs@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
Reply-To: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

In article <4qi2u2$hpv@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>>
>>The refutation of this point requires a conspiracy theory no less
baroque
>>than the one that argues the _no_ mass murders of Jews took place in
WW2.
>
>What point? That some Jews might have believed the story that they were
>being "resettled"? Or at the very least told this story to loved ones
left
>behind? I see no point in refuting that point.
>
>But is there any evidence whatsoever that Jews actually were "resettled"?

>There's quite a bit of evidence that "resettlement" was a ephemism for
>murder. Why would the Nazis "resettle" their sworn enemies along the
>fragile supply lines on the Eastern Front? Say what you will about
>Hitler's prowess as a military genius, but somehow that doesn't seem
>rational, unless Jews were being "resettled" into mass graves.

RIch, I have _no doubts_ that many _did_ end up in mass graves for one
reason or another.  The point is that these postcards and letters were
sent _after_ these people were in Treblinka, from locations like Minsk,
Smolensk, and Kiev.  Nobody, except a conventionalist, ever pretended that
the history of the Holocaust was easy, or simplistic.





From ehrlich606@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:59:08 PDT 1996
Article: 45708 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Still waiting John...
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:01:03 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8gv$d6@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31cbaba2.13481479@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31cbaba2.13481479@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>
>While I am glad that I have been able to learn of my errors and to
>correct them, I am perplexed at your insistence on pointing out my
>minor errors when you cannot accept the basic facts about the physics
>of cremation which even your own expert accepts.
>
>

This is precisely the kind of civilised reply that should be praised by
all sides.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 07:12:15 PDT 1996
Article: 45827 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.randomc.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel's crocodile tears
Date: 25 Jun 1996 07:56:26 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qok5a$373@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31cece0a.251373545@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31cece0a.251373545@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>This wasn't a capital case Zundel was involved in. Therefore the death
>pentalty is a nonissue here. 
>
>I thought as head of the IHR you would have a higher level of thinking
>but I see there is no difference between you and most of the racists I
>read in this group.
>
>

OK, so substitute for witchcraft canine bestiality, or some other charge
characteristic of day care hysteria trials in the 1980s.  The rest of this
response is a prime example of *fighting hate.*


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 07:12:16 PDT 1996
Article: 45830 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 24 Jun 1996 15:01:19 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qmolv$hd5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31cecba3.250758108@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31cecba3.250758108@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>>
>>Why don't we start with the level of honor shown by people who refuse
>>to post under their own names?
>
>It has been suuggested that Ehrlich here might be a couple of other
>names appearing here. 
>
>
Insinuated by none other than Hilary Rodham Ostrov at the top of this
thread, perhaps after a private chat with Eleanor Roosevelt.  But this is
a typical tactic, to make insinuations in front of a question mark, and
then to pretend outrage when accused of dishonesty.
   


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 10:45:54 PDT 1996
Article: 45871 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: On Lidice and the Provoking of Reprisals
Date: 23 Jun 1996 04:00:12 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 34
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qitic$8aj@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <01bb60c7.d40cfd00$55cfd3c6@default>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader


From: *The Order of the Death's Head* by Heinz Hoehne, p.558ff

 In London, the Czech government in exile under Eduard Benes was
taken aback by the reports of Heydrich's achievments.  Peace in the
Protectorate threatened to paralyze the Czech emigre democrats, for the
more the population of Bohemia and Moravia seemed prepared passively to
accept their German masters, the more untenable did the position of the
government in exile become in negotiation with the Allies.  Only if there
was an active resistance movement in the Protectorate could the Government
in exile assert any claim to Allied consideration of Czech interests in a
post war settlement.  However, so long as the Germans under Heydrich
continued their flexible occupation policy, there would be no resistance. 
The Czech exiles drew the sober conclusion -- Heydrich must be liquidated;
only the murder of the mighty Reich Protector was likely to call forth
that German brutality without which Czech resistance had neither purpose
or incentive.



The government of exile in London _got what it wanted_.
[emphasis mine].  A wave of terror descended on Bohemia and Moravia, one
of the most agonising in the history of the Third Reich.  10,000 Czechs
were arrested, at least 1,300 were shot, including all male inhabitants of
the village of Lidice near Prague which was supposed to have harbored
Heydrich's attackers.  The village was razed to the ground. .... After the
war, the British Labour MP R. T. Paget pronounced *Partisans often
deliberately provoke reprisals in order that hatred of the occupier may be
intensified and more people may be induced to resist.  This was our
general idea when we flew in a party to murder Heydrich in Czechoslovakia.
 The main Czech resistance movement was the direct result of the
consequent SS reprisals.* 

Did somebody say *truth and justice* triumphed in WW2.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 11:12:21 PDT 1996
Article: 55413 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.join.ad.jp!sinetnews!newssinet!uwvax!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: 22 Jun 1996 13:11:15 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qh9fj$iqr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca news.admin.net-abuse.misc:55413 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:70

In article ,
jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) writes:

>
>Well, they got their fill of skeptics!  Not a single one of the people I
>mentioned above, with the occasional exception of Greg Raven, chooses to
>return to alt.revisionism.  They say it's because we regulars on
>alt.revisionism engage in mudslinging and generally aren't professional
>enough for them. 

And they are right.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 11:12:21 PDT 1996
Article: 55492 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nctuccca.edu.tw!news.Edu.TW!news.cc.nctu.edu.tw!spring.edu.tw!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 1-9: 12.7% / 18.3%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:59:10 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8de$ah@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qhk74$7b7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhk74$7b7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
(Matt Giwer) writes:

>
>	These people are the real scum of the earth.
>
>	This thread in this newsgoup is merely one more attempt to get me
to
>stop posting.  
>
>	There is no truth to it.  They are merely presenting information
in a
>false light so as to make it appear that I am doing something improper.
>
>

I for one agree with Matt Giwer, and I am willing to defend him on this. 
The Friends of Nizkor, as far as I can determine,  will stop at nothing to
destroy those with whom they disagree.  Mr. Giwer's actions in retaliation
are completely justified.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 16:47:25 PDT 1996
Article: 45946 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 23 Jun 1996 04:41:32 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 28
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qivvs$92j@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qis3k$d6t@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qis3k$d6t@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>problems" should be fixed?
>
>Oh, well ... sic transit honesty, I suppose!

I will concede your expert knowledge on that.  My previous statements
presupposed the honor, decency, and fairness of all participants on this
board.  I have learned in a hard school that I presupposed far too much.

I have learned from hard experience that the Friends of Nizkor comprises
more than a few who are not interested either in honest debate or truth
per se.  I also know from personal experience that their number includes
more than one malicious guttersnipe whose sole purpose is to substitute
ridicule, abuse, and lies in place of reasoned debate. Therefore I will
not waste my time responding to challenges, or even prose essays such as
this, from essentially dishonest conventionalists.

It is clear that no one seriously communicates with anyone here, but
rather, to an anonymous band of lurkers.  My mistake, which I freely
admit, was to take the people on this board as earnest and tolerant
individuals.  In far too many cases they are not.  Therefore, if I now
repost, it is with an awareness that nothing will be achieved by
communicating with you.  And I am not reposting for your sake.  I am
posting for my friends, who come on _both_ sides of the aisle.  But I
doubt if you could ever grasp that.
  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 20:20:15 PDT 1996
Article: 45964 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 03:50:35 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 13
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qit0b$85q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ccbba4.219848@news.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

In article <31ccbba4.219848@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis)
writes:

>>
>>It is a power trip.  If only they could see how much they are like what
>>they pretend to hate.
>
>I see, Alan. You have decided to come out into your true colors. I
>thought as much. What happened to your martyred exit. didn't work for
>you, eh?
>
>
Thank you for proving my point.  I know you better, now.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 20:20:17 PDT 1996
Article: 45965 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:34:16 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qq0i8$rcp@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qnnta$346e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

In article <4qnnta$346e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>Perhaps you should address those remarks to Mr. Giwer, who is now
reduced,
>in his pathetic desperation and desolation, to spamming the newsgroup
with
>denier reposts that several deniers are feeding him.  The deniers have
>lost--the game is over.
>  
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>

As the Nizkorites say, Pot. Kettle. Black.  All I have seen from you over
the past several weeks is a longer and longer variation of the mantra. 
And yes, I know enough history on _this topic_ and I have received enough
_e-mail_ from participants to have a likely suspicion that dishonesty is
rife here.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 22:20:19 PDT 1996
Article: 45983 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: 26 Jun 1996 00:00:24 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qqcko$58r@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qq0rk$25o@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qq0rk$25o@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>The main challenge to the revisionist position is Occam's Razor.  I have
>>yet to see a coherent answer to this challenge.
>
>>Perhaps you'd like to provide one.
>
>	Occam's razor, you mean the least number of hypothesis that will
explain
>events?  Death from disease and towards the end starvation and probably
>lack of water in most cases can adequately explain all the deaths with
>the superfluous gas chambers being added.  
>
>

I mentioned Occam's Razor a couple of months ago.  I also mentioned the
analogy of the perturbations of the Ptolemaic astronomy.  The explanation
that is the simplest, accords best with the documentation, demands the
least special pleading, the least *interpretation*, will be the one the
future will follow.  I am not sure which one it will be, or perhaps it
will be a hybrid, but I am sure that the future will regard our inability
to achieve detachment in this area with some consternation.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Tue Jun 25 23:16:36 PDT 1996
Article: 45994 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where smoke and flame stories come from
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:50:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvot$rr4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qk6ju$ip@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qk6ju$ip@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>Go ahead, present your physical evidence that WW2 happened. 
>
>	Lets stick with Dresden for the moment.  
>
>
>

There were also huge numbers of corpses that had to be burned, and they
were burned in large pyres in the street.  It took several weeks to burn
them all.  Photographs are around.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:20 PDT 1996
Article: 45995 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Poor team" KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:51:27 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 28
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvrf$rs8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qkhf7$lch@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qkhf7$lch@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>
>In this specific case, the "conventionalists" have primary sources citing
>medical and legal conclusions that these specific allegations are not
>true. Some German POWs probably were mistreated, certainly by the
Soviets,
>but these were not. Unless you have concrete evidence to the contrary, I
>will not accept that any of the important Nuremberg convictions were so
>tainted. 

As a matter of fact, I think the judges (non-Soviet, that is) took care to
base their convictions in the most part on the abstract charges of
Conspiracy, and Crimes against Peace, as well as minor, but irrefutable,
war crimes.  I don't get the impression (consult Bradley F. Smith's
*Judgment at Nuremberg*) that anyone was hanged on the basis of an
atrocity story.  And that is not what I was saying.   Although I _will_
say that I thought that it was a stretch to hang Julius Streicher, as
loathsome a man as he many have been.  Smith, BTW, generally agrees with
that thesis.

I have gone over the crushed testicle business with Yale at other times. 
All I can say is that I hope it wasn't true. But I am realistic about the
end of a very ugly war.  The only point I wanted to make is that a
person's testimony should not automatically be thrown out because of their
affiliation.  Nor should it be accepted automatically because of its
source.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45996 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Rudenko:  Prosecutorial Skill at Work
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:51:58 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvse$rsg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qko3f$da8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader




[Rudenko is examining Alfred Rosenberg]

Rudenko: *Do you admit that Nazi Germany, having prepared and pursued war
against the Soviet Union, aimed at plundering the economic riches of the
Soviet Union, the extermination and enslavement of her people, and the
disarmament of the country? Answer briefly.*

Rosenberg: *No.*

Rudenko: *You deny it? All right.  Let us turn to a new document.*

source: American Heritage, August 1962, p. 69 (precis of Francis Biddle's
memoirs)


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:21 PDT 1996
Article: 46003 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:52:32 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvtg$rt3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post.  I thought you were
>>above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.
>
>

Sniff, sniff.  And I thought you were above such juvenilia as refusing to
read Giwer's posts, and then posting it no less.  That reminds me of
people who call up radio talk shows and announce that they aren't going to
listen anymore.  Huh?

The fact is I foolishly believed the tone could be changed here. I was
wrong.  If I do not respond in kind to personal attacks, I acquire the
negative energy of the attacker.  Not good.  And I will respond to _your_
post when I have it posted.  To the extent that I am able, I should add,
because unlike others I make no claim to technological expertise.  Nor do
I make claims to final answers.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:22 PDT 1996
Article: 46034 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 04:26:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qiv2s$8q9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ccd326.27110760@165.113.1.21>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31ccd326.27110760@165.113.1.21>, jhahn@crl.com (John Hahn)
writes:

>>
>What planet are you from? (I assume that's ' ... of the foolishness
>..'
>
>	A lurker
>
>
>
>

Thank you for the grammar correction. OTOH, if _you_ believed all that
stuff you are not only atypical you are not even of this galaxy. 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:23 PDT 1996
Article: 46043 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I control Giwer
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:01:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8ho$dt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qh5bg$1jag@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qh5bg$1jag@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>As will now be obvious to even occasional readers of this newsgroup, I
>clearly control Giwer.  

I think you are basically OK, Gord, but I also think that you have a few
major screws loose if you expect any of the hundreds of passive readers of
this board to believe this.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:23 PDT 1996
Article: 46093 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Au revoir, but not goodbye
Date: 23 Jun 1996 07:01:57 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qj875$abk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31cd17a9.63402708@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

In article <31cd17a9.63402708@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>
>I have been named by the General Editors and Advisory Board of the new
>Oxford Francis Bacon as Assistant Editor. Nothing has changed really;
>I still have to labour in the manuscript archives of England for a
>month. It's what I do in real life when I am not restricting the free
>speech of pseudo-historians by daring to question their claims.
>
>
>>
I hope you are aware, John, that it was Edward de Vere, the Earl of
Oxford, who wrote the Shakespeare plays, and _not_ Francis Bacon.  Have a
nice holiday, anyway.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:24 PDT 1996
Article: 46098 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.ems.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 25 Jun 1996 15:43:12 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qpfgg$jge@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qn167$csb@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qn167$csb@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>In article <4qmfop$dtk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ruth Sommers  wrote:
>
>>Granting that the discussion about diesel engines is something of a
blind
>>alley, to me at least, it is my understanding that HCN in carrier
>>substances is still made, and even if it isn't it was made for decades
in
>>Germany.  BTW, the evaporation rate is supposed to be 37% of the
existing
>>volume every half hour at 20 degrees Centigrade, according to Rudolf. 
>>Crudely, that means 1/3, then 1/3 of 2/3, then 1/3 of 4/9, etc. for
>>several hours.

This is a blatant forgery.  Period.  I have never posted under the name
Ruth Sommers.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 08:04:16 PDT 1996
Article: 45995 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Poor team" KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:51:27 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 28
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvrf$rs8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qkhf7$lch@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qkhf7$lch@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>
>In this specific case, the "conventionalists" have primary sources citing
>medical and legal conclusions that these specific allegations are not
>true. Some German POWs probably were mistreated, certainly by the
Soviets,
>but these were not. Unless you have concrete evidence to the contrary, I
>will not accept that any of the important Nuremberg convictions were so
>tainted. 

As a matter of fact, I think the judges (non-Soviet, that is) took care to
base their convictions in the most part on the abstract charges of
Conspiracy, and Crimes against Peace, as well as minor, but irrefutable,
war crimes.  I don't get the impression (consult Bradley F. Smith's
*Judgment at Nuremberg*) that anyone was hanged on the basis of an
atrocity story.  And that is not what I was saying.   Although I _will_
say that I thought that it was a stretch to hang Julius Streicher, as
loathsome a man as he many have been.  Smith, BTW, generally agrees with
that thesis.

I have gone over the crushed testicle business with Yale at other times. 
All I can say is that I hope it wasn't true. But I am realistic about the
end of a very ugly war.  The only point I wanted to make is that a
person's testimony should not automatically be thrown out because of their
affiliation.  Nor should it be accepted automatically because of its
source.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 08:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 45996 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Rudenko:  Prosecutorial Skill at Work
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:51:58 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvse$rsg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qko3f$da8@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader




[Rudenko is examining Alfred Rosenberg]

Rudenko: *Do you admit that Nazi Germany, having prepared and pursued war
against the Soviet Union, aimed at plundering the economic riches of the
Soviet Union, the extermination and enslavement of her people, and the
disarmament of the country? Answer briefly.*

Rosenberg: *No.*

Rudenko: *You deny it? All right.  Let us turn to a new document.*

source: American Heritage, August 1962, p. 69 (precis of Francis Biddle's
memoirs)


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 08:04:18 PDT 1996
Article: 46003 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 22:52:32 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qkvtg$rt3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qkjf7$opi@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>
>>Mr. Ehrlich, I am quite disappointed by your post.  I thought you were
>>above such juvenile tit-for-tat arguments.
>
>

Sniff, sniff.  And I thought you were above such juvenilia as refusing to
read Giwer's posts, and then posting it no less.  That reminds me of
people who call up radio talk shows and announce that they aren't going to
listen anymore.  Huh?

The fact is I foolishly believed the tone could be changed here. I was
wrong.  If I do not respond in kind to personal attacks, I acquire the
negative energy of the attacker.  Not good.  And I will respond to _your_
post when I have it posted.  To the extent that I am able, I should add,
because unlike others I make no claim to technological expertise.  Nor do
I make claims to final answers.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 08:04:19 PDT 1996
Article: 46034 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 10-13: 21.1% / 26.1%
Date: 23 Jun 1996 04:26:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qiv2s$8q9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ccd326.27110760@165.113.1.21>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31ccd326.27110760@165.113.1.21>, jhahn@crl.com (John Hahn)
writes:

>>
>What planet are you from? (I assume that's ' ... of the foolishness
>..'
>
>	A lurker
>
>
>
>

Thank you for the grammar correction. OTOH, if _you_ believed all that
stuff you are not only atypical you are not even of this galaxy. 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 08:04:20 PDT 1996
Article: 46043 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I control Giwer
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:01:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8ho$dt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qh5bg$1jag@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qh5bg$1jag@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>As will now be obvious to even occasional readers of this newsgroup, I
>clearly control Giwer.  

I think you are basically OK, Gord, but I also think that you have a few
major screws loose if you expect any of the hundreds of passive readers of
this board to believe this.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 08:04:20 PDT 1996
Article: 46093 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Au revoir, but not goodbye
Date: 23 Jun 1996 07:01:57 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qj875$abk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31cd17a9.63402708@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com

In article <31cd17a9.63402708@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>
>I have been named by the General Editors and Advisory Board of the new
>Oxford Francis Bacon as Assistant Editor. Nothing has changed really;
>I still have to labour in the manuscript archives of England for a
>month. It's what I do in real life when I am not restricting the free
>speech of pseudo-historians by daring to question their claims.
>
>
>>
I hope you are aware, John, that it was Edward de Vere, the Earl of
Oxford, who wrote the Shakespeare plays, and _not_ Francis Bacon.  Have a
nice holiday, anyway.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 09:46:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46110 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The first "denier" was a Buchenwald inmate
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:58:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8c4$ac@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qhuf6$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhuf6$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>	Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
material
>	over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
consciousness
>
>

We should be constantly reminded of the Nizkor credo.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 09:46:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46112 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4%
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:58:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 10
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8cr$af@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qhuv7$mks@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhuv7$mks@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
writes:

>	Holohuggers are so firmly into thought control that they will do
>anything they can to try to silence those they disagree with.  
>
>

It is a power trip.  If only they could see how much they are like what
they pretend to hate.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 16:43:44 PDT 1996
Article: 46137 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!news.intercon.com!udel!delmarva.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron Exposes His Bigotry and Ignorance - Again
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:57:45 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8ap$a6@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qhufk$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhufk$9fv@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>	Propagandizing of a base sort is done by repeating the same
material
>	over, and over, and over, and over, until it burns into
consciousness
>
>	by default. 
>
>

And that is what the Nizkor bunny does: over, and over, and over.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 16:43:45 PDT 1996
Article: 46138 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!uhog.mit.edu!news.intercon.com!udel!delmarva.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Abb  Pierre and The Sin of Revisionism
Date: 22 Jun 1996 21:58:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 21
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qi8bf$a8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qhm0f$nft@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qhm0f$nft@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ruthsommer@aol.com
(RuthSommer) writes:

>What does this say about the Holocaust?  If you doubt it, you are
>committing a
>cardinal sin.  Isn't it just a part of history like any other?  Why can't
>people have
>different opinions about it?

Because of the Nizkor BTSS creed (Because! They! Say! So!).  DIfference of
opinion are treated with frenzied contempt by *Ordinary Canadians* who
find, under the excuse of *fighting hate* an outlet for their basest
passions.  The irony is that, by pretending to fight hate they have
adopted precisely the moral and psychological profile of those individuals
who with good conscience murdered millions in the Nazi and Soviet regimes.
 In other words, they are crypto-fascists.  Meanwhile, those who out of
innate curiosity or just a tendency to be mistrustful of the mob _dare_ to
question aspects of the established orthodoxy are called *naziboys* and
*deniers* when it is precisely these individuals who would have been the
_first_ to get a bullet in the back of the neck under either of the
aforementioned totalist regimes.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 16:43:46 PDT 1996
Article: 46158 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burned alive in Bialystok
Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:36:21 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 26
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qiaj5$12d@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qh7u1$i1q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qh7u1$i1q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, tokrse@aol.com (TokRse)
writes:

>
>Mr. McVay seems to think that the "German" army (or as he puts it "The
>Germans" had some kind of corner on brutality.  

No, I don't think so.  I think what KM was getting at was the assertion
about burning people alive.  I do not know the circumstances of the
burning of the Bialystok synagogue that Goldhagen so floridly describes,
but I do know that to argue that the event somehow *conflated* the
ideology and the people marked for destruction is absurd.

Why?  Because the SS did the same thing as a reprisal in Ouradour sur
glane in France in the summer of 1944.  The *Das Reich* division was being
held up by British spies and local partisans, and some of their leaders
were killed.  Therefore, as reprisal, they killed a lot of civilians.  In
theory, this was legit, but what they did at Ouradour was not.  About 450
men women and children were locked into the church with explosives and
then it was torched.  A serious abuse of the concept of reprisals, in more
ways than one a WW2 My Lai.  The indication from the historical record is
that this kind of thing occurred many times in the East -- not just with
Jews -- in response to partisans and general German frustration with the
course of the war.

consult: *Das Reich* Max Hastings, 1981


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 21:32:43 PDT 1996
Article: 46184 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: 26 Jun 1996 20:08:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 100
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qsjd2$5ho@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qsd4a$30k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qsd4a$30k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
writes:

>
>I am a lawyer and I have a question for revisionists that I have not seen
>answered satisfactorily.  This is my first post to this group so please
>excuse me if my comments seem elementary or I misspell names.
>
>  At the Nuremburg Trial, 23 (I believe that was the number) high ranking
>Nazi officials were tried including Frank (the head of the general
>government in Poland), Kaltenbrunner, Seyss Inquart ansd Salcal (sic) 
>Frank was also alleged to have participated in the Wannsee Conference of
>January, 1942 and the "alleged" exterminations were to take place on
>territory within his jurisdiction. .
>
>All of these men were represented by counsel.  How come none of them, not
>even Goring the most defiant of the defendants, alleged that the gas
>chambers were a hoax or concoction of the allies in conjunction with
>Jewish interests.  None of these men raised this as a defense.  As I
>understand it, the defense of all the defendants was either lack of
>knowledge or fear of disobeying orders.
>
>As a lawyer, if my client was Frank, and I knew the gas chambers were a
>hoax, that fact of that hoax would have been my lead defense.  I would
>have aggressively attacked all of the physical evidence as a forgery.  I
>would have argued that Zyklon B couldn't kill anyone.  I would have
>challenged the photographs.  I would have grilled Rudolph Hoess, the
>Auscwitz commandant on cross examination.    In short, I would have
argued
>that "It is a hoax!!  There were no gas chambers!!"  After all, my client
>would have been on trial for his life.  
>
>It is extremely telling that this defense was never raised.
>
>As a lawyer, I find it surprising that these principal defendants, on
>trial for their lives,  with the most intimate knowledge of the facts and
>within one year or two of the alleged incidents, never even alleged the
>existence of this hoax. Not a single one of them.  
>
>

This is an excellent post and you raise an excellent question.  The fact
of the matter is that the defendants generally believed the stories. (Ref.
GM Gilbert, *Nuremberg Diary*

The introduction of extermination evidence came in several phases.  First,
there was the showing of the atrocity film,  11/29/45. (p. 45)  The
defendants were shocked, outraged, and claimed no knowledge.  On 12/14/45,
there was testimony and documents -- including the Stroop Report -- on
extermination in Poland.  Again, there was generally no questioning of the
truth of this evidence (which included the *steaming* to death evidence.)
(p. 69f)  In January, there was evidence of mass shootings.  No one
questioned it then, and no one does now.  When the Russians presented
their case, 2/8/46, there was a change in mood. Namely, skepticism. (p.
135ff)

At one point, Gilbert, conversing with Goering said, *You can't shrug off
6 million murders!* -- To which Goering responded, *Well, I doubt if it
was 6 million, but as I have always said, it is sufficient if only 5 per
cent of it is true ...* 

The reaction to the _Soviet_ atrocity film was markedly different. 
Goering, for one, considered it phony, with the parts of the corpses
probably played by German soldiers. (p. 162.)

February 27 and 28 gave the balance of Soviet testimony, namely, on
Auschwitz and Treblinka.  (p. 174ff)  There is a revealing episode here. 
During a break, Dr. Kranzbuhler, Doenitz' attorney, asked him, *Didn't
_anybody_ know _anything_ about _any_ of these things?*  Doentiz
shook his head and shrugged sadly.  Goering turned around, *Of course not
...*

On April 15 there was a climax of sorts when Rudolf Hoess testified. (p.
264ff) There was initial disbelief, but no one seems to have thought that
he might not be telling the truth.  Of course, at that time, Hoess
testified to the gassing of 2.5 million.

To sum up, the defendants generally believed the testimony.  But there was
no point in cross examining because no one at Nuremberg was convicted on
the basis of atrocity stories alone.  No one hanged because of Auschwitz. 
As a matter of fact, Hoess was only at Nuremberg to testify in
Kaltenbrunner's defense.  Bad move.

The defendants were shown the same film of inmates dead of disease and
malnutrition, and then accepted the rest without question.  As have most
of us, most of the time.  Because, in the final analysis, Goering was
right.  Even if only 5% were true....

As Bradley F. Smith points out, *Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg*, the
German lawyers seemed content on focussing on rebutting the accusation of
the Katyn Forest massacre. (p. 107)

One final point.  The defendants in all of these trials were out to save
their lives. They were subject to a number of discovery restrictions which
would not apply in a normal case.  They could cross examine witnesses, but
they could not dispute every affidavit.






From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 22:24:36 PDT 1996
Article: 46188 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rudenko:  Prosecutorial Skill at Work
Date: 26 Jun 1996 21:52:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qspg4$8br@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qq5f0$f2v@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qq5f0$f2v@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
writes:

>	On the other hand, this does not mean that Rudenko did not make
his 
>point.  If, by other evidence, he can show Rosenberg's knowledge of the 
>document, he has effectively impeached the witness (and that, after all,
is
>one 
>of the basic purposes of cross examination).
>
>	--YFE
>
>

This is not only good analysis, but the kind of response I was looking
for.  Further comments on Rudenko's skill are forthcoming.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Wed Jun 26 22:24:37 PDT 1996
Article: 46189 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 26 Jun 1996 22:11:30 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qsqki$98f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qqeo4$5j8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>Really Mr. Ehrlich?  Is the following from Mr. Giwer what this board is
>supposed to have on it?
>
>

Gord, the only difference between Hilary and Matt insofar as their
demeanor on this board is concerned, is that Hilary has mastered the
gentle art of insult, and Matt is much more earthy.  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun 27 07:32:51 PDT 1996
Article: 46202 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 25 Jun 1996 16:14:21 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 115
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qphat$kki@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <177B0E368S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <177B0E368S86.BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>, BOROWSKY@UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
(borowsky) writes:

> 
>But this seems to make revisionism a theory without any consequences,
which
>isn't true and something that revisionists themselves wouldn't even
>want.  

I personally don't think at this point in time there _are_ any
consequences to historical revisionism.  Except that I don't have to
accept *facts* that don't make any sense.


For if we decide that the Holocaust was the _The Hoax of the Century_,
>then aren't we indicting thousands of survivors who gave incriminating
testi-
>mony, two generations of historians who corroborated their stories by
>coercing
>evidence to fit such a story? 

I don't consider it a hoax by a long shot.  I think that there are
elements to the story that do not make sense to _me_ and I feel that I
should have the right to discuss my skepticism without reprisal.  OTOH, if
all people want to do here is sling it, I can do that, too.

But anyway, you are wrong.  There are not *thousands* of eyewitnesses to
gassings.  At most a couple of hundred, and that includes Nazi
confessions.  I personally have discussed the war with several survivors
who suffered during the war, including a half dozen in the camps,
including 4 who were at A-B.  None of them knew about gassings.

Two generations of historians?  Come on.  Most historians of WW2 and
Nazism spend very little space on the gassing aspect of the Holocaust. 
Furthermore, they always quote the same half dozen primary secondary works
by Reitlinger, Hilberg, et al.  And those gents give the gassing aspect
about 20 pages apiece in their books.

Being uncomfortable with the idea that massive gassings were carried out
is not as big a deal as you think.  It's what you do with it.  If you
_use_ that to attack Jews, you are, in my opinion, doing something that is
both petty and wrong.    

Or sometimes a mysterious cabal of tamperers
>who
>insure that the hoax is perpetuated?   

There is nothing mysterious about the assertion that a lot of forged
documents and coerced testimony made itself into the record at Nuremberg. 
Of course, no one here believes that anyone, especially not the Soviet
Union, could do such a thing.

Surely we have to imagine in the minds
>of revisionists, that the Holocaust is not simply a mistake or
exaggeration,
>but a fraud so collosal it would "forever earn the maledictions of honest
>men,"
>were it ever exposed.  Which Tom Moran, Ruth Sommer and many others are
hell-
>bent to demonstrate.

I think the burden on most revisionists is a tremendous frustration in
being able to speak out, coupled with an automatic attribution of the
basest motives conceivable for their skepticism.  *Colossal Fraud*?  I
don't think so.  Just war propaganda that has never reached the proper
balance because of the _fact_ that the Jewish community in Eastern Europe
was destroyed, and the _fact_ that millions of Jews lost their lives
through persecution in one way or another.  But nobody here denies these
facts.  

> 
>My question to Ehrlich (who I do not characterize as a revisionist)-- 
and
>others who say, "Come, let us reason together,"--  is to what extent is
rev-
>isionism a matter of scepticism or even research?  In order to accept
>revision-
>ism  (by which I mean the CODOH &tc variety) mustn't one also accept a
story
>that is only supported by a conspiracy theory which rivals only _The
>Protocols
>of the Elders of Zion_ in credibility?
> 
Again, I don't think it is as dramatic as that.  Let me tell you
something.  I came across Butz' book 20 years ago in a university library.
 I read it, and I set about to refute it.  There are some obvious
distortions in it, by the way.  But I asked around, wrote letters, scanned
the literature, and I couldn't find _one_ refutation of it.  Most of it
was just name calling.  Then I read the literature itself, again.  And
there are holes all over the place. Sloppy.  There's no other word for it.

51 years after the fact and people still can't correlate eyewitness
testimonies.  People theorize about where the crystals were *inducted* and
they can't find the holes.  Now we are supposed to have columns, and no
one knows for sure how they were attached. When you have the claimed
murder of a million human beings riding on it, it is nothing less than a
disgrace that no one settled these questions decades ago.

Another example.  Dan Keren claims the SS made people write letters and
postcards from locations where they would never go.  Naturally, as with
all of his posts, direct response is impossible.  What is the proof of
that assertion?  The documentation at Steengracht's trial, as well as the
documentation for Kube's tenure in Minsk, makes it clear that there were
Western Jews who were in Russia long after the extermination camps were in
full swing.  What does that mean?  I don't know.

But Keren then suggests that the Warsaw rising proved exterminations at
Treblinka.  It does not.  It proves that there were rumors of
extermination.

Everybody thinks that if there is revision there will be death.  Not true.
 The community was destroyed.  Millions died.  Get over your fear. Realize
that the Holocaust was a complicated mosaic, that can't be contained in a
90 by 20 foot concrete room.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun 27 07:32:52 PDT 1996
Article: 46206 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!sgigate.sgi.com!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: 26 Jun 1996 23:32:36 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 33
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qsvck$ccq@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qsr12$9hu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qsr12$9hu@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
writes:

>  If this was true, Franck would have surely known.  He would have
>known that the extermination camps were merely resettlement camps and
>there was no plan to kill the Jews via lethal gas.  All of these camps
>were on his territory and he had the civil responsibility over the
>ghettoes such as Lodz and Warsaw where the Jews were held.  In short, he
>would have known that the "gas chamber" story was a complete hoax and
>fabrication if not the greatest hoax of all time.  He would have told
this
>to his lawyers.  Yet, he never even raised this issue.   
>
>From a legal standpoint, this is strong corroboration that the gas
>chambers were real and that Franck's defense was one of having no direct
>involvement in the gassings  and of following orders.  Parenthetically,
>wasn't it Franck who cried out that Germany would be racked with guilt
for
>1000 years because of the Holocaust.  This is hardly exculpatory.
>
>

This is an interesting thread.  However, you omit the fact that Frank
voluntarily turned over all of his diaries and papers to the prosecution. 
In other words, his private papers. There is nothing in there about gas
chambers.  There is also much that is incriminating _without_ recourse to
gas chambers, e.g., *That we sentence 1.2 million Jews to starve to death
should be noted only marginally ....*  Frank was a nervous wreck even
before his apprehension at Krakow.  I recommend Gilbert's book to you for
some insight into the man's psychology.  (consult, for these remarks,
Gilbert, p. 68, 69)




From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun 27 18:00:13 PDT 1996
Article: 46329 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
Date: 26 Jun 1996 21:17:32 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 75
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qsnfc$7f8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qsd4a$30k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qsd4a$30k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
writes:

Looking over your post there are a few minor details I would like to point
out, subsequent to my other post.

>
>As a lawyer, if my client was Frank, and I knew the gas chambers were a
>hoax, that fact of that hoax would have been my lead defense.  I would
>have aggressively attacked all of the physical evidence as a forgery.

There was no physical evidence.  If you mean documentary evidence, how
would they know when the originals were never introduced?

>I would have argued that Zyklon B couldn't kill anyone.

But it can.

  I would have
>challenged the photographs.

Photographs of what?  No one admitted that there were aerial photos of
Auschwitz until Butz' challenge in his 1976 book, after which the CIA
issued a booklet in 1979.  And those photos don't prove anything, either.

>I would have grilled Rudolph Hoess, the
>Auscwitz commandant on cross examination.

Why? Hoess' testimony incriminated only himself, Himmler, and the usual
high up SS. He was called in Kaltenbrunner's defense.  Kaltenbrunner was
not incriminated by his testimony.

    In short, I would have argued
>that "It is a hoax!!  There were no gas chambers!!"  After all, my client
>would have been on trial for his life.  

>
>It is extremely telling that this defense was never raised.

I disagree.  

>
>As a lawyer, I find it surprising that these principal defendants, on
>trial for their lives,  with the most intimate knowledge of the facts and
>within one year or two of the alleged incidents, never even alleged the
>existence of this hoax. Not a single one of them.

I question the above premise most strongly.  Gilbert's book, referenced in
my main response, presents a behind the scenes picture of the defendants
as seen by their psychiatrist.  They were open with him in ways that could
be predicted by transference.  They had nothing to gain by *posing* for
him.  And yet, hardly any of them appear to have had prior _certain_
knowledge of massacres, and none of them had knowledge of gassings. 
Others may insist that they were lying, but I find Gilbert's book very
believable.  

The defendants of the NMT (which followed the IMT) is another story.

Another point, that picks up from another thread.  Sarah Jane Gordon wrote
a book 10 years ago, itemizing German attitudes in the Third Reich (Mike
Curtis -- please provide title).  She used postwar questionaires.  On
these, something like 60% claimed having heard rumors of mass shootings
(probably from family members on home leave) but if I am not mistaken
_none_ had heard or lent credence to rumors of mass gassings. As I recall,
the book was roundly criticized at the time of publication for that
observation.

Goering said, in his last days, to Gilbert: *Knowing what I know now, I
wish I could have Himmler here -- just for 10 minutes -- to ask him what
on earth he was up to out there.*
(Irving, Goering, p. 493, quoting Dr. Gilbert's private notes)

Wouldn't we all.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun 27 18:00:19 PDT 1996
Article: 46331 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The true revisionist theme
Date: 26 Jun 1996 21:31:26 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 27
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qso9e$7rt@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qslbg$qiq@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qslbg$qiq@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>    Someone recently asked (in essence) what difference it would make if
>everything I believed about Auschwitz turned out to be false.  Not a bit,
>really.  What makes a difference to me is that it be established using
>consistent and _honest_ standards of evidence and reasoning.

This is a wonderfully fair post.  It is true that revisionists distort. 
But I would argue that conventionalists do, too.  It is as if neither side
is willing to give the whole side of their opponents'.  My thinking is
that a lot of this has to do with the general animus that is allowed to
develop on these topics.  This board is a perfect example.

I have said to other skeptics/revisionists/deniers that I part ways when a
discussion of these issues touches contemporary politics (i.e., Israel) or
ethnic slurs against Jews.  But I control no one.  And the fact is, the
*revisionists* or *deniers* have never attacked me the way the
conventionalists have done.  Plus I am _still_ a skeptic.  Hence my
location, if you will.

I agree that revisionists should be more civil and less strident. 
Everyone should be.

Thank you for a wise post.
  



From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun 27 18:00:21 PDT 1996
Article: 46332 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tales of the Red Army
Date: 26 Jun 1996 21:54:59 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qsplj$8eh@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31d0a436.10068167@news.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31d0a436.10068167@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>So we need to bear in mind what this man is saying about the
>difference between war crimes and crimes against humanity that he
>differentiates above. You do not seem to care for this
>differentiation.
>
>

This was an excellent post, until you started getting personal -- again. 
I am not sure where a war crime becomes a crime against humanity. Period.

But again, the point of the post was why post Ilya Ehrenberg?  The point
was that he was responsible, by whipping up hatred, for anti-German
atrocities.  Whether he was or not, I don't know.  But the main thread
here is that there _were_ anti-German atrocities and that Ehrenberg wrote
hate propaganda.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun 27 18:00:22 PDT 1996
Article: 46335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: 26 Jun 1996 22:01:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qsq14$8m3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31d0ab6c.11914697@news.eden.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31d0ab6c.11914697@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>>family harrassed through this board.  It is a disgrace.
>
>There is NO ONE I'm aware of who has harrassed your family on this
>board. Oh! You learned this game from Giwer, eh, Ehrlich606?
>
>

Giwer's family _was_ harrassed.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun 27 18:00:23 PDT 1996
Article: 46336 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: 26 Jun 1996 22:06:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qsqa8$90l@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qqen5$4iqe@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qqen5$4iqe@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>All alone in the world.  Despised by all.  No one to bully around. 
Bitter
>at the past and terrified of the future.  So jealous of "normal" people. 
>Knowing that the only ones who accept him are the anonymous Nazi denier
>scum.  Hating the real world, where people have at least a shred of
humanity
>and loathing the fact that he has none.  
>
>Pathetic beyond words.

Get a grip, Gord.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Thu Jun 27 18:00:24 PDT 1996
Article: 46351 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lamarck.sura.net!news.uky.edu!news.campus.mci.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:18:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qpvjq$r1g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>As for the "B" in Zyklon B? It stood for "Blausäure," which, if I
>interpret correctly, means "blue acid." 
>
>

Mark, this was a good detailed post. On this last point, however, I think
there is a problem. I understand that the letter is part of a series:
ABCDE which relates to different grades of the product.  _Folk etymology_
gave us the equivalence of B and *Blausaure* which as you correctly note
means (blue+sour) or (blue+acid), or more precisely just *prussic acid*
i.e., cyanide. According to Berg, in the Zyklon article on the CODOH site,
the terms became interchangeable.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun 28 07:18:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46438 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: 28 Jun 1996 03:49:41 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4r02ql$k4o@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31d285f8.56137406@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31d285f8.56137406@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>Why do you suppose the US hasn't?
>
>Mike Curtis
>
>

Because you are making sure that it doesn't happen?  :)


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun 28 07:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 46442 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!mojo.eng.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: 28 Jun 1996 04:00:35 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 55
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4r03f3$kch@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qqg39$9vo@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qqg39$9vo@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>Subject:	Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
>From:	hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
>Date:	Wed, 26 Jun 1996 04:59:48 GMT
>
>In <4qpuue$ql4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:
>
>>In article , hce@magmacom.com (Howard
>>Eisenberger) writes: [in response to Mr. Ehrlich's sermon from the
mount]
>
>>>
>>>To posit such an incredible and unsubstantiated interpretation of
>>>contemporary society indicates either questionable motives or an
>>>appaling lack of critical reasoning. I suppose you can take solace
>>>in the fact that so many others are willing to share your illusion.
>
>>No.  Because to question the orthodoxy is to have your house firebombed.

>>It is to be harrassed, to have acid thrown in your eyes, to be
imprisoned,
>>to be deported. To have your name forged on this board.  To have your
>>family harrassed through this board.  It is a disgrace.
>
>>And you know that.
>
>Really?  Very interesting Mr. Ehrlich.  But for those who don't,
>perhaps you could provide some enlightenment by presenting some
>evidence to support your claims - or at the very least citing the
>sources of these unsubstantiated assertions.  

OK -- let's see.  Zundel was firebombed.  Giwer was harrassed. Sheftel
(Demjanjuk's attorney) had acid thrown in his face.  Udo Walendy was
imprisoned.  Rudolf was sentenced to prison.  Zundel has been threatened
with deportation.  My name has been forged on this board at least once,
but that has been straightened out -- read around.
Giwer's family was harrassed through this board.

I do understand that you
>may hold the opinion that your word should be good enough for everyone
>- and perhaps for some it might be.  But just on the off-chance that
>there might be someone out there who has the audacity to doubt your
>authoritative pronouncements, it would be the gentlemanly thing to do,
>don't you think?  Or are such courtesies not part of your vision of
>what "this board is _supposed_ to have on it"?
>
>hro
>
I think courtesy is a two way street.  I generally extend courtesy in the
expectation that it will be reciprocated.  When it is not reciprocated, I
draw the appropriate conclusions about my interlocutor.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun 28 10:39:56 PDT 1996
Article: 46490 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!inXS.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anne Frank
Date: 28 Jun 1996 09:49:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 12
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4r0nsj$qst@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31D28A28.4E6F@rio.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31D28A28.4E6F@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  writes:

>> >>that was used to give Red Cross inspectors the impression that
inmates
>
>
>This is pure fabrication. God, what a sickie you turned out to be!!!
>
>

Hey, Chuckles!  If you want to insult me, fine.  But I didn't write
whatever it is you are reacting to.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun 28 13:24:12 PDT 1996
Article: 46541 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.graphics.cornell.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!newsserver.sdsc.edu!news.cerf.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!nwgw.infi.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:06:38 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qpuue$ql4@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article , hce@magmacom.com (Howard
Eisenberger) writes:

>
>To posit such an incredible and unsubstantiated interpretation of
>contemporary society indicates either questionable motives or an
>appaling lack of critical reasoning. I suppose you can take solace
>in the fact that so many others are willing to share your illusion.
>
>
>

No.  Because to question the orthodoxy is to have your house firebombed. 
It is to be harrassed, to have acid thrown in your eyes, to be imprisoned,
to be deported. To have your name forged on this board.  To have your
family harrassed through this board.  It is a disgrace.

And you know that.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Fri Jun 28 16:13:19 PDT 1996
Article: 46567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Let's Start At Square One
Date: 24 Jun 1996 05:36:13 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qlnid$7ut@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31CD6DB2.7082@servicom.es>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader


Something that would be very helpful is to start collecting all the
eyewitness accounts to gassings at all locations.  I seem to recall there
are maybe 200 or so, including testimony of former SS in post war trials.

Then, they should be divided by location, and a kind of synoptic version
of events at every camp where gassings took place could be established. 
Then we could also settle once and for all what we can agree on to
disbelieve, believe, and hold in suspense.  It would enormously clarify
everyone's position, and also make it clear what denial of gassing events
would entail at any given location (in terms of numbers of witnesses
dismissed).

Therefore, let's see if we can formulate a list and URL's for all
testimonies of this nature here.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 29 07:30:38 PDT 1996
Article: 46650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: 24 Jun 1996 13:21:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qmirh$f6u@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ce50fa.49440331@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31ce50fa.49440331@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>and ask him how it is that the presence of identifiable human remains
>in a mass grave 5 acres in area and 22 feet deep proves that there was
>no mass exterminations at Treblinka. He agrees that the grave was
>there and was that big, but he claims that the presence of human
>remains conflicts with the testimony of witnesses who said that the
>bodies were completely destroyed. But surely that is not the logical
>inference to be made about such a huge grave with identifiable human
>remains in it.

Again, the logical inference is that there was killing done at Treblinka. 
It is also likely that there were many deaths by other causes as well,
since most testimony from that camp -- following Leleko -- references
numerous suicides.

The point is whether Treblinka was the final terminus *for all who enter
here* as is usually claimed, at least, that would be my point.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 29 07:30:39 PDT 1996
Article: 46657 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!news.monad.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: 24 Jun 1996 13:15:07 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 29
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qmier$f1c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31ce50fa.49440331@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

>
>I must admit that I have never heard of this plan in regards to
>Treblinka before, but only in regards to the so-called "Family Camp"
>at Auschwitz-Birkenau. But there are probably many things I have never
>heard of.
>
>

You are again missing the point.  These letters and postcards were written
>from  camps beyond Treblinka and Auschwitz Birkenau.  There is in fact some
documentation indicating that German and Austrian Jews *Reich Jews* as
well as other Western Jews were in Byelorussia, the Baltics, and the
Ukraine.  Consult documentation on Steengracht's trial at the NMT
(unavailable to me) as well as the documentation (also largely unavailable
to me) with reference to Lohse's and Kube's handlings of their Eastern
Commissariats.

It _is_ baroque to insist that people would be encamped at places like
Auschwitz and Treblinka (in the former case, for months) and then told to
write post-dated letters describing imaginary camps that they have never
seen and then have these people murdered (because your intentionalist
thesis will not allow for labor exceptions) and then have the SS
authorities hold on to these letters for months so that they can
strategically postmark them and mail them later.

  



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 29 07:30:40 PDT 1996
Article: 46673 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 24 Jun 1996 12:29:13 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qmfop$dtk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qlkul$e8c@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader


Granting that the discussion about diesel engines is something of a blind
alley, to me at least, it is my understanding that HCN in carrier
substances is still made, and even if it isn't it was made for decades in
Germany.  BTW, the evaporation rate is supposed to be 37% of the existing
volume every half hour at 20 degrees Centigrade, according to Rudolf. 
Crudely, that means 1/3, then 1/3 of 2/3, then 1/3 of 4/9, etc. for
several hours.

Therefore it shouldn't be too difficult to establish the _entire_ range of
carrier substances, their diameter, their composition (diatomite, wood,
silica), whether or not the carrier was bleached and/or colored (with
cobalt blue, for example).  We could settle whether there was a
correlation between lettering (Zyklon A, B, C, D, E) and carrier, and
beyond that to the cost.

I gather it is fairly well established that *Zyklon B* was _the_ form of
HCN used by the SS. And it was widely used.  Therefore we should have no
problem, that is, if someone knew what they were doing.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 29 13:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 46767 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: 24 Jun 1996 18:04:29 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 21
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qn3dd$l6m@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31cee00d.255985044@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31cee00d.255985044@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>>
>>People are either responsible for their own actions or they are not.
>
>My newsfeed is a little slow. I haven't gotten, Ehrlich's interesting
>responses. Is this the only question he asnwered?
>
>I think you respond very well to his "who cares" reply. I don't that
>their is any more doubt about Ehrlich606 and *his* goals is there?
>
>Mike Curtis
>
>

Your newsfeed is not the only thing that is slow.  I did not post the
above response, as any child could figure out.  My thoughtful and pensive
response, a pendant to Mr. Giwer's graphic and punchy one, is still in the
wires.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 29 13:21:03 PDT 1996
Article: 46773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 24 Jun 1996 18:05:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qn3en$l70@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>>   
>
>Oh, my. Such bitterness.... Such wounded pride.  Such a petty tantrum
from
>a person who can't bring himself to support his arguments with fatcs and
>source citations. Tsk tsk. 
>
>Mark

Who said I was bitter?  Your co-web mistress indicated the means of
verifying my identity _in such a way_ that any nut who scans this board
could have come after my residence, and my family. You can go ahead and
pat yourself on the back that she is on your side.

Oh, you think I left because she called me _names_?  Do you think I have
any doubts about the rigid humorlessness of the conventionalists herein,
after they fell into the Dresden jeu d'esprit? Meanwhile, this board has
become an open conspiracy among those who wish to stifle Giwer, who for
two weeks has been virtually the only poster who has posted what this
board is _supposed_ to have on it: namely, opinions that are contrary to
the prevailing orthodoxy on the general subject of the Holocaust, Nazism,
or WW2.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 29 13:21:04 PDT 1996
Article: 46774 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burned alive in Bialystok
Date: 24 Jun 1996 18:05:10 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 21
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qn3em$l6v@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qmpoi$1nsq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qmpoi$1nsq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie
Farber) writes:

>>Yes, one did.  And the people of Lidice had nothing to do with
Heydrich's
>>assassination.
>>
>>Seems that our friend Ehrlich, who left never to return, has in fact
>>returned--a new and less objective Ehrlich.
>
>
People killed in reprisals usually bear no individual guilt.  Reprisals
are a species of collective responsibility.  Subjectively experienced,
they are terrorism, or state terror.  It is a loathsome business and
everybody does it.  Do you think the 600,000 German men, women, and
children killed in (mostly) British bomb attacks *had anything to do* with
WW2 or the Holocaust?
   
This board has nothing to do with objectivity, and you know that quite
well. 



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 29 15:46:34 PDT 1996
Article: 46813 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: 29 Jun 1996 17:09:39 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 18
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4r462j$61q@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4r3ujs$92i@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4r3ujs$92i@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>, Nele Abels
 writes:

>
>>	I am certain that is something intelligent.  Looks like I need to
>>collect some taglines in German.  
>
>Try a dictionary. You should find one in your extensive library. Or did
>you throw it away after you had read it? Oh, I forgot, before you could
>translate your sentence you would have to change your moral system...
>
>Nele
>
>

 *Rather weak ... earlier he showed more courage in his
responses*



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sat Jun 29 15:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 46818 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burned alive in Bialystok
Date: 29 Jun 1996 17:10:11 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 35
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4r463j$626@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qvn2i$1gqi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qvn2i$1gqi@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>>45 years of occupation, enslavement, and theft.  Postwar famines that
the
>>victorious Allies refused to bring under control.  Nemmersdorf. 
Breslau.
>>The Berlin Wall.
>
>I'm sorry, Mr. Ehrlich, that doesn't cut it.  The equivalent would be the
>murder of 100% of German males, and the deportation and enslavement of
100%
>of German females, for a war in which they were entirely uninvolved. 
Like
>it or not, that isn't what happened.
>
>

And I don't think your explanation cuts it either.  Hundreds of East
European German communities were completely wiped off the map.  I am sure
that in some of these small hamlets 100% of the inhabitants were either
shot or loaded onto trains to rot in Soviet slave labor camps.  I know you
have read the *Documents on the Expulsions*, why not reference these?

But that is where your second clause becomes important *for a war in which
they were entirely uninvolved.*  Because, um alles, you are going to say
that Mr. and Mrs. German peasant in East Prussia, or Pomerania, or
Silesia, or the Sudetenland, should have stopped Herr Hitler, and
therefore what they got was *rough justice.*

And that is the dark side of democracy: because Hitler was (more or less)
elected, then every German was responsible, because everyone had the
_potential_ to affect his (more or less) election.  The extension of the
concept in war is collective responsibility.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:48 PDT 1996
Article: 46864 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Return of the Prodigal Poster  - Faustian Follies?
Date: 24 Jun 1996 13:27:42 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 32
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qmj6e$fap@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qlb7u$j9q@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qlb7u$j9q@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
(Richard Schultz) writes:

>
>: I will concede your expert knowledge on that.  My previous statements
>: presupposed the honor, decency, and fairness of all participants on
this
>: board.  I have learned in a hard school that I presupposed far too
much.
>
>Why don't we start with the level of honor shown by people who refuse
>to post under their own names?

There is nothing dishonorable about posting pseudonymously, especially
since there is sufficient evidence both via this board and internationally
that those who refuse to espouse particular orthodox opinions on this
topic are harrassed, imprisoned, and deported.

And you know that.

In point of fact my pseudonyms in all of my cyber travels has to do with
honoring my wife.  Needless to say, my family takes priority over your
challenges.

And you also know that you are the source of a totally gratuitous insult
whereby you claimed that my pseudonym derived from Goebbel's *Jews =
vermin* argument.

_Unlike you_, and people _like_ you, I have never initiated a personal
attack against anyone on this board.  On the contrary, I go out of my way
to be amicable and conciliatory until someone demonstrates that they do
not deserve it.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46865 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: 24 Jun 1996 13:53:45 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 40
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qmkn9$fs5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31cebe1f.5560081@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31cebe1f.5560081@news.srv.ualberta.ca>,
jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:

> Nothing would change if they were.
>
>   So why do you care?
>
>People are either responsible for their own actions or they are not.

If you had to leave your wife and kids with Bundy, Dahmer, Hitler or even
OJ Simpson, who do you think would be _least_ likely to molest them? 
Therefore I am skeptical of this analogy.  Moreover, it is unacceptable to
conduct _any_ historical research and or simple historical rethinking
within the constraints that such and such a conclusion must be reached.

Hitler was a dictator at a period in Western history where there was a
definite tendency for the *leadership principle* to control our affairs. 
Witness Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin -- and even FDR.  Obviously, he had
political and oratorical strengths. There is something of fascination
merging on admiration for his manner of consolidating power, rebuilding
German nationalism,  and carrying out his revenge campaign against the
French and British in 1940.  But on the other hand, he established a
precedent of ruthless arbitrary behavior on the part of an (uncrowned)
monarch, common to Russian, but unusual to German, history.  This is
destructive to the rule of law.  He allowed his state to rest on
principles of *race science* (or whatever you want to call it) that in the
last analysis are inhumane and deleterious to the national development of
any society that tries to live by them.  It is doubtful that Hitler, or
Stalin, will ever be remembered happily.

But on the other hand.  Many millions of Germans believed in him.  To
them, belief in him was belief in their nation.  Similarly, many Germans
fought and died for him, and for their country.  For many Germans who
lived at the time to repudiate his memory utterly would be like denying
their nation, or even the honorable sacrifice which their family members
made in war.  I think we can understand that, especially with the older
generation.  David Irving, I think, has fallen into the thrall of that
older generation.  Basically.
   



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nyiszli's Memoirs of Auschwitz
Date: 28 Jun 1996 22:55:54 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 203
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4r25vq$f0e@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qnp57$rri@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader



The Memoirs of Dr. Nyiszli *Auschwitz* (Arcade, 1993)

[NOTE:  My comments here are to comprise notes on the memoirs of Dr.
Nyiszli whose memoirs were the first thing about the Holocaust I read,
over 30 years ago, and not since.  The manuscript of the Hungarian
physician, who composed this text by March, 1946, was first published in
Jean Paul Sartre’s *Les temps modernes* [Modern Times] around 1953.  It
was translated and published into English cca. 1960.  Since the copyright
to the translation is in his wife’s name, I assume he was dead by then. 
The text is the basis for Pressac’s Holocaust theory.]

[Because of the difficulty in typing long extracts, I am generally going
to post notes in bullet form.  Comments, when they appear, will be clearly
indicated by brackets.  Because of the gruesomeness of the some material,
it should be emphasized that a certain detachment is required in either
the reading of Dr. Nyiszli’s text or commentary thereof.]

Dr. Nyiszli describes his arrival at A-B and his selection as a physician
to work with Dr. Mengele.  (19f).

Eventually he is appointed as the doctor in charge of the crematoria crews
(Sonderkommando).

THE GASSING

There are several gassings described in the book, but the most detailed
occurs in Chapter 7.  (47-55).

1.  Those selected for the left hand column are to be gassed.

2.  The deportees are led into a room marked *Baths and Disinfecting
Room.*

3.  The room is 200 yards long.

[Actually, it was about 25 feet by 170 feet]

4.   The SS order the men, women, and children to undress and hang up
their clothes on numbered hooks.

5.  3,000 people are in the room.

6.  A large oaken gate opens, and the crowd is led into another room, as
large as the first.

[There is no reference to an L-turn, required in the crematoria.  The
dimensions of the chamber are 98 feet by 25 feet]

7.  In this second room there are  square, sheet metal pipes, the
sides of which contain numerous perforations, like a wire lattice 

8.  The SS depart, a Red Cross car drives up, and an SS man walks across
the grass with four cans of Zyklon.

9.  Every 30 yards, short concrete pipes, with concrete lids, stick out of
the ground.

10.  Wearing a gas mask, he lifts the lid and pours the contents  a
mauve, granulated material  into the pipe.

11.  The granulated substance falls in a lump to the bottom of the shaft.

12.   Within five minutes everyone was dead. 

13.  The SS wait five more minutes to make sure, light cigarettes, and
leave.

14.  20 minutes later the ventilators kick on to clear out the gas
chamber.

15.  The evacuation of the gas is done *quickly* but gas remains in the
nooks and crannies of the victims,
such that  even two hours later it caused a suffocating cough .

16.  As a result, the first Sonderkommando in the room where gas masks.

17.  The bodies are piled in a mass towards the ceiling, in order to
escape the gas, for no more than two or three minutes.

18.  The death/air struggle has left the bodies scratched, bruised, blood
oozing from noses and mouths, faces bloated and blue, covered with
excrement, and entangled with each other.

19.  The pile of the dead is hosed down with *powerful jets of water*

20.  The dead are moved with a leather thong around the wrist, and then
are carried to one of four elevators, each with a capacity for 20 to 25
corpses.

[There was one elevator]

21.  The blood of the victims mixed with the water in the gutters on the
concrete floor.

22.  The hair is removed from the corpses,  it was often used in
delayed action bombs 

23.  Gold teeth are extracted from the corpses.

24.  The bodies are laid on a kind of pushcart three at a time.  
The heavy doors of the ovens open automatically ; the pushcart moved into
a furnace heated to incandescence. 

25.  The bodies are cremated in 20 minutes.

26.  Each crematorium had fifteen ovens, and there were four in all. 
Several thousand could be cremated in a single day.

[This is incorrect]

27.  Trucks took the ashes to the Vistula, where they were dumped into its
*raging waters*.

[The Vistula is fordable on foot much of the year at A-B.  It's winding
course does not indicate a high rate of flow]

THE SHOOTING (Chapter 9, pp. 66-68)

One night Dr. Nyiszli wakes up to hear shooting.  He goes into a room and
finds 70 naked women, not all of them dead, aprawled in a bloody mess on
the floor.  Each of whom has been shot in the back of the head.  A
sonderkommando assures him that every night trucks bring 70 more to be
murdered the same way.

THE MASS BURNING (Chapter 13, pp. 84-89)

5,000 people are waiting to be burned in open pits.  They are led into a
house in groups of 400, forced to strip while beaten, and then are chased
along a gauntlet of SS to a pit.  The pit is 50 yards long, six yards
wide, and three yards deep.  SS men line the pit.  There were two such
*pyres.*

When the two pyres were operating simultaneously, their output
varied from 5 to 6 thousand dead a day.  Slightly better than the
crematoriums. 

The victims are dragged to the edge of the pit, shot in the back of the
head, and thrown in.  

[There is no mention of fuel, or fat collection.]

FAMILY CAMP  (Chapter 14, pp. 90-93)

One day the entire family camp, intact families of German Jews from
Theresienstadt, are gassed together.  Mengele signs an order that these
12,000 people, who have been at Birkenau 2 years, are liquidated to
prevent the spread of typhus.

[This is the source of Pressac's thesis, I believe]

DEFINITION OF ZYKLON (Chapter 18, p. 111)

In a footnote, it is asserted that the name *Cyclone* comes from the
chemical composition of _Cy_anide, _c_h_lo_rine, and _n_itrogen. 
According to Dr. Nyiszli, there were two types of Zykon: A and B. 
Type A was a disinfectant, Type B was used to exterminate millions.
(translator’s note).

[This is the source of Hilberg's now famous footnote]

AIR RAID SHELTER (Chapter 22, p. 128f)

One night there is an air raid.  Dr. Nyiszli, the Sonderkommando, and the
SS all take shelter in a gas chamber.  Dr. Nyiszli is reminded of the time
that 400 men of the Sonderkommando were locked in a regular delousing
chamber and gassed.

[Matt Giwer was right]

DESTRUCTION OF GYPSIES  (Chapter 23, p. 131)

One day the 4,500 Gypsies in the Gypsy camp are exterminated.  They are
given bread and salami so they will think they are being sent to another
camp.  The chimneys light up the camp with a *sinister glow* as the
chimneys shoot flames skyward.  (BTW, smoking and flaming chimneys and
pyres are a common observation in the text, e.g., p. 142)

[Since the gypsies must have been asked to strip and take another shower
before leaving, I don't understand this ruse]

CLOSING  REMARKS

There is much else of note.  Dr. Nyiszli finds his wife and daughter from
whom he was originally separated.  He coaxes them to make a selection for
a convoy to leave the camp.   Dr. Mengele orders him to cook two bodies
for the skeletons, Polish prisoners eat them.  Prisoners are killed with
phosphorous bombs, and flame throwers.  On November 17, 1944, subsequent
to the gassing of the Lodz (Litzmannstadt) ghetto, 70,000, the order was
announced over the radio that it was forbidden to kill any more prisoners.
(p. 190).  Finally, after returning to Hungary, one day the doorbell
rings.  It is Dr. Nyiszli’s wife and daughter, who have just been released
>from  Bergen Belsen *one of the most notorious extermination camps.*  A
happy ending well needed and well deserved.








From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:51 PDT 1996
Article: 46996 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: - Rascher Letter.jpg (0/1) Re: Strange things on IX
Date: 30 Jun 1996 01:32:27 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4r53hb$g5u@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4r4926$jgt@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4r4926$jgt@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>In all fairness Dr. Bilik didn't claim it was a fact.  Mr. Ehrlich
>stated, "No one has ever claimed that this happened."  Dr. Bilik proves
>Mr. Ehrlich wrong by providing an example of such a claim.  Whether the
>claim is accurate is a separate question.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>-- 

This was in regards to Dachau orginally.  I understand there is some
acceptance of a story of gassing at Natzweiler.  If true, so be it.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:51 PDT 1996
Article: 47036 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: 25 Jun 1996 07:45:06 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 29
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qojg2$1pc@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31cecec3.251558150@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31cecec3.251558150@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>: 
>>: 	The only way you got your title is by laying McVay and you know
it. 
>>
>>"One you miss out on is one you never make up for."
>>
>>I do believe you're jealous!!!
>
>It appears that the troll is getting downright smutty. You must have
>really got him angry to cause this inane nonresponse.
>
>Good show!
>
>Mike Curtis
>
Yeah, right, whereas if _someone else_ had said the same thing, in this
way *I do believe, Mr. Giwer, in your passion for *small details*, you
might care to enlighten the rest of us whether your position might not
have been due to the supine delivery of favors of a certain kind?*  --
which would have been _just fine_.

And that is why I would advise Matt to tell his critics to lick his
staircase.



From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47088 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!van.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Well designed mass gassing chambers
Date: 30 Jun 1996 01:32:48 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 88
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4r53i0$g69@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4r4q2p$agb@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4r4q2p$agb@access1.digex.net>, mstein@access1.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>   He is playing a very dishonest game: he demands that everyone else
>provide proof of their claims, but that everyone else must also provide
>supported rebuttal of his unsupported assertions.  And then he will
>reject technical references as being invalid Because!  He!  Says!  So!
>
>    If you have not noticed this, you are blind.  And if you have noticed
>this, you are aiding and abetting intellectual dishonesty.

There is a wonderful passage in Schopenhauer, in which he compares life to
a magic show.  The tricks are only meant to be effective once: the second,
third time around, you see the wires and the fakery, and you are bored by
it.  Schopenhauer extended the concept to life, saying, that in your youth
you basically fall for all the tricks that human nature is heir to.  As
you age, on the other hand, you see right through the veil, and you become
weary with the game.

I will extend the concept now to this board.  It is likely that there is a
full routine, but I don't know what it is: having been here for only two
months.  I don't know the structure well enough.  If there is a
predictability to what goes here, and that this is just a shadow game,
which I sometimes suspect, then I will log on somewhere else.

>
>    Therefore I have insisted that he be the first to produce the figures
>he says he knows how to compute - and besides, it was his claim and he
>bears burden of proof for claims which he makes.  Once he gives properly
>supported figures, _then_ it is for me to either accept them or bring
>equally well-supported rebuttal to show where he went wrong. 

If he is not in a position to prove something, that's one thing.  If he is
simply validating his skepticism, that's another.

>
>    And what about you?  Are you interested in the truth?  Or are you
here
>to aid and abet intellectual dishonesty?  Why don't _you_ investigate
this
>matter if you are interested?  Why is it always _my_ responsibility not
>only back up my own claims, but to provide proof that everyone else's
>unsupported assertions are false, and to do all the work only to be told
>that my evidence is not good enough (Because!  I!  Say!  So!).

Relax.  I make no claim to scientific expertise.  I don't even think
Matt's comments need to be permanently confuted.  It is enough that he has
articulated reasons for his skepticism.  You don't have to prove anything,
as far as I am concerned.  I don't think everything that is posted on this
board needs to be refuted for the lurkers, either.  I think that some
people -- perhaps you, too -- have made that your project.  But I don't
think you have to do that.  In short: non response to skeptical assertions
does not mean -- to anybody who knows how to read -- that the skeptical
assertion is suddenly true.  Therefore, if you feel an obligation to
respond it must be coming from you.  Think about it.

>
>    Because, you see, that is the final bit of intellectual dishonesty
>going on here: like Greg Raven before him, he is surreptitiously playing
>both defense attorney and judge.
>
>    And what are you playing? 
>
>
I think skepticism is healthy.  I know people on this board tend to say
that revisionism has offered nothing to this subject,  but I don't think
so.  I think conventionalist historians are nowadays pursuing topics _in a
way_ as a result of the revisionist approaches.  This, in my opinion, is
really no different that the historical revisionism on any subject, except
that the subject is such a _profound_ destruction, that emotions run very
high.

Now, think about it.  50 years later and we still haven't pinpointed the
induction holes, haven't reconciled the smoke, flames and the photographs,
shoot, nobody around here even seems to know the difference between Zyklon
ABCDE or what the stuff _looks_ like.  Chances are no one would even
bother to find out, if it were not for revisionists _irritating_ with the
issue.  But I think we owe it to the very real victims of Nazism (and
Stalinism) as well as to posterity to _nail down every last thing_ and if
that means we have to make some adjustments to what we think we know, so
be it.

I don't think this is an adversarial process, I mean in the sense of
hating and bearing grudges.  At least I don't want it to be.  I am
interested in this subject, I am convinced that revision and clarity are
needed, and I am following it right now.  That's all.

 


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47091 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!pravda.aa.msen.com!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: 26 Jun 1996 11:23:08 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 29
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qrkks$mt6@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qrh8k$36h@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qrh8k$36h@access5.digex.net>, mstein@access5.digex.net
(Michael P. Stein) writes:

>
>    Not so!  Two British POWs, Witton and Neely, also testified.
>
>

They testified to hearsay, which is inadmissable.  BTW, I don't want to
get into this soap thing again by way of distraction.  My only point is
that I was irritated with the Nizkor sponsored post.  Spanner deserves
more of a benefit of the doubt, IMHO.

Nor is this a way of denying that millions of Jews died as a result of
Nazi policies in one way or the other.  That is an inescapable fact.  But
I also consider it an inescapable fact that the perpetrators were neither
infinitely evil and sadistic nor so much different from you or me.  And,
saying that, I would say that about Stalin's killers as well.  And that
brings us back to some basic questions about how relatively decent people
were programmed by experience and by their governments to engage in such
appalling actions.

The cautionary tale -- as I see it -- has to do with the frighteningly
evil possibilities when one combines centralized media, centralized
government, and one man rule, in an industrial society.  I submit that
this is not a club to hit Germans over the head with.  It is, however, a
warning to those of us who have managed by the fate of history -- so far
-- to avoid sinking as deeply into the abyss as Germany and Russia.
  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47155 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: 25 Jun 1996 17:01:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qpk2d$lif@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qn32t$qu@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qn32t$qu@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>
>2. The above analysis refers to the currently 50% or so of the newsgroup
>   that does not concern Prince Myshkin, of course. The Myshkin half is
>   all trolling. I don't think Myshkin has anything particular against
>   Jews or for Hitler. He just hates everybody.
>
>

Thanks for the vote of confidence, pal.  As for Myshkin, aka Matt, I think
you misjudge him.  He doesn't hate anybody.  But he doesn't have to kiss
up to anybody either.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:53 PDT 1996
Article: 47176 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rudenko:  Prosecutorial Skill at Work
Date: 25 Jun 1996 19:48:27 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 40
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qptsb$q0c@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>
>In article <4qkvse$rsg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
>> 
>> 
>> [Rudenko is examining Alfred Rosenberg]
>> 
>> Rudenko: *Do you admit that Nazi Germany, having prepared and pursued
war
>> against the Soviet Union, aimed at plundering the economic riches of
the
>> Soviet Union, the extermination and enslavement of her people, and the
>> disarmament of the country? Answer briefly.*
>> 
>> Rosenberg: *No.*
>> 
>> Rudenko: *You deny it? All right.  Let us turn to a new document.*
>> 
>> source: American Heritage, August 1962, p. 69 (precis of Francis
Biddle's
>> memoirs)
>
>And? Are you suggesting that the Hitlerites _didn't_ invade the Soviet
>Union  for the expressed purpose of disarming and plundering the country
>and killing and enslaving its people? Answer briefly. 
>
>
There are times when the density of your mind is simply amazing.  The
above exchange is not about giving you an excuse to show off your scanner.
 The above exchange demonstrates (1) Rudenko's incompetence as a
prosecutor, (2) Rudenko's laughable inability to adjust to something other
than a show trial, and (3) an example of a stupid question (hint: note how
it is structured).

As far as answering briefly is concerned, you might want to take your own
advice.  Brevity is the soul of wit.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:54 PDT 1996
Article: 47177 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Such mastery of the English Language!
Date: 27 Jun 1996 10:17:38 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 16
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qu562$obf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qthqm$2de@grivel.une.edu.au>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qthqm$2de@grivel.une.edu.au>, ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor)
writes:

> 
> In a thread on mastery of the English language you do
> the topic gross injustice by including the tenth word
> in the first sentence of the above extract from your
> previous posting, for while the construction is, in
> the strictest sense, grammatically correct, the context
> contradicts the use of the word.
> 
> d.A.
>
>

Are you sure you aren't Hilary in disguise?  


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:55 PDT 1996
Article: 47178 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Color of Zyklon: Call Me Zyklon Blue
Date: 27 Jun 1996 10:17:41 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 14
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qu565$obg@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qsbaa$pk6@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qsbaa$pk6@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU
(Richard J. Green) writes:

>
>It was unsupported hearsay which I unfortunately believed.  I attributed
>your words as if you and she were the same person.  I have no evidence
>for that claim so I retract it and apologize.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
> 

OK OK.  Don't mean to flame you, I just want it straight. Best Regards.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:56 PDT 1996
Article: 47188 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can't We All Just Learn to Read?
Date: 25 Jun 1996 19:57:01 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qpucd$q7b@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qoejk$2b7@atlas.uniserve.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qoejk$2b7@atlas.uniserve.com>, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary
Ostrov) writes:

>
>But was I offended? Well, compared to other Ehrlich "witticisms"
>(remember his "Evil German Baby Goulash" or "Nostradamus, Elvis, UFOs
>-- Future of Holocaust Studies" or "Goldhagen a Schmuck?" or
>"Holocaust without Gas Chambers?" or "Rekindling Ovens:  Dachau
>Gassings?") this was not offensive.
>
>

As addressed elsewhere, the Bunny bit had nothing to do with Hilary's
gender, or, for that matter, her weight.  The other *witticisms* in string
titles were neither intended to be witty nor do I see how they are
particularly offensive.  Moreover, I never titled a string *Rekindling
Ovens*.  Typical Nizkor distortion.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:56 PDT 1996
Article: 47193 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tales of the Red Army
Date: 25 Jun 1996 18:06:20 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 19
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qpnss$n3h@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <31d00731.331552749@news.zilker.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <31d00731.331552749@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
Curtis) writes:

>>
>>(Text is found in Ilya Ehrenburg's book Vojna (The war) (Moscow, 
>>1942-43)
>
>Well, considering the date of publication, I can understand the anger
>of the Russians. Can't you, Mr. Widmann of CODOH?
>
>Mike Curtis
>
>

The point he is trying to make is that this kind of hate propaganda helped
fuel the murder of German children, and the rape and murder of German
women, some in their '80's, after the Russians reached German soil. 
Alfred M. de Zayas' *Nemesis at Potsdam* describes this in detail, and
also has some photos of dead German babies.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:58 PDT 1996
Article: 47210 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I was afraid of Bothmann'
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:26:15 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 25
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qq037$r7k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qn6ir$1lr@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qn6ir$1lr@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>>Commissariats.
>
>Yes, I bet such documentation is unavailable. So are the putative
>survivors. Or are you saying that the Germans moved all the Jews to the
>East, dropped them off along their supply lines despite the expectation
>of sabotage, and that all the Jews the Germans had dropped off in the
>East were murdered by the Soviets when the war turned in their favor? 
>Interesting theory, and it would explain why none of the "resettled" Jews
>lived to tell about it, but still seems a bit baroque to me.
>
>
You, at Stanford, have a copy of the NMT and IMT at your elbow.  I will
ref you a couple of documents and you can look them up.  And I will try to
scrounge what I can to make my point -- which is simply this -- there was
a forced labor component and resettlement component to the Holocaust.  Do
I think all these people survived? No.  Do I think they were shot and/or
imprisoned by either the Nazis or the Soviets? Likely.  But don't blame
_me_ that there were no gas chambers in Belarus, Ukraine, or the Baltics. 
I guess you mean to say if millions of people are _shot_ then there is no
Holocaust.




From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:58 PDT 1996
Article: 47212 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!tomato.dussco.com!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: 25 Jun 1996 15:55:05 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qpg6p$jp8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qn1vb$fn@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qn1vb$fn@Networking.Stanford.EDU>, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
writes:

>
>mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>Christopher Browning(_The Path to Genocide_) points out that in
>>mid-March of 1942, 75 to 80 percent of all the victims of the
>>Holocaust were still alive. By mid-February 1943 75 to 80 percent of
>>the victims of the Holocaust were already dead. It seems a central
>>descision was made very quickly and the murders were ruthlessly
>>carried out. 
>
>This is news to me (but then, I'm not well read on this topic). Is
>Browning in the mainstream here? It was my impression that huge numbers
>were murdered in the camps by various means late in the war. (OTOH, 1943
>was pretty late as far as the Eastern Front was concerned.)
>
>

The real question is the source of Browning's statistics.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:33:59 PDT 1996
Article: 47218 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Poor team" KICK GERMANS IN TESTICLES BEYOND REPAIR
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:44:28 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 11
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qq15c$rjr@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qnnus$qvc@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qnnus$qvc@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>I would agree that it was wrong to hang Streicher, and would add that I
also
>believe it was wrong to hang Jodl and *not* to hang Speer.
>
>

Nice to know we can still agree on something, Gord.


From ehrlich606@aol.com Sun Jun 30 15:34:00 PDT 1996
Article: 47219 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e2a.gnn.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burned alive in Bialystok
Date: 25 Jun 1996 20:21:29 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 20
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <4qpvq9$r4f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
References: <4qpai0$25pm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader

In article <4qpai0$25pm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
McFee) writes:

>
>Would you really equate the destruction of Lidice, a small village that
had
>nothing to do with the war at all, let alone any strategic importance,
with
>the bombing attacks on Germany?  For every Dresden, there is a Coventry. 
>For every Berlin, there is a London.  What is the equivalent for Lidice?
>
>

45 years of occupation, enslavement, and theft.  Postwar famines that the
victorious Allies refused to bring under control.  Nemmersdorf.  Breslau.
The Berlin Wall.

Collective responsibility, in the last analysis, all of it.

  



Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.