The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 07:50:30 PDT 1996
Article: 70531 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Judge gives Jewish skinhead who attacked Asian new trial: Why? 'He's Jewish'
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 01:46:28 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  "NEW TRIAL ORDERED FOR MECHANIC FOUND GUILTY OF HATE CRIME" 

  "Judge says the jury that convicted the punk-rock fan didn't have
all the evidence"

  That's the headline of an article in the Orange County [California]
Register newspaper this past weekend (9/26/96) that describes how a
man convicted of a violent hate crime against an Asian-American has
been granted a new trial by a judge -- in part, the judge says,
because the jury which convicted him was unaware that he's Jewish.
  "I'm very happy . . . ," Chad Salsbury, 27, said as he left the
court," according to the report.
  It continues, "At Friday's hearing, Salsbury testified that he is a
punk-rock fan and has several tattoos -- including one of a revolver
and another of a pile of skulls -- and that he had a crew cut last
summer. But he said he has never been a racist."
 It goes on to describe the brutal beating of the Asian-American man
thusly:  "Mark Sanjay David was beaten in August 1995 by a gang of
skinheads outside an Orange nightclub where the punk-rock band Fear
was appearing in concert. An eyewitness to the attack later ran up to
Salsbury and screamed, 'It was you, you . . . Nazi."
  The article says Salsbury would have faced eight years in prison for
his conviction of assault with a deadly weapon with a hate-crime
enhancement, but he's now free on $100,000 bail while awaiting the new
trial. 
  Salsbury's attorney at the trial in which his client was convicted
supported the judge's decision, but declined to comment on why the
jury was not told that Salsbury is Jewish.
  Was he expecting a conviction, and purposely failed to tell the jury
that his client was Jewish, because he planned to use this fact as a
reason his client deserved another trial?
  And what does being Jewish have to do with anything anyway?
  The Register article concludes, "Deputy District Attorney Tom
Glazier said he is confident Salsbury will be convicted again."
  The Salsbury case is reminiscent of the widely-publicized case of
the young Jewish man who, living in Singapore with his parents, was
convicted of spray-painting the cars of numerous citizens of that
country.
  The case gained huge national and international attention when
Singapore authorities said the convicted American would be "caned," a
punishment not uncommon in the island nation, which is said to enjoy
one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
  During an interview on CNN's "Larry King Live" show with the boy's
father, King brought up the fact that one of the guilty man's
ancestors may have suffered in the Holocaust of WWII a half-century
ago in relation to the young man's upcoming punishment in Singapore.  
  U.S. President Clinton made the young American's anticipated caning
an top diplomatic issue and publically appealed to the President of
Singapore for leniency for the convicted vandal.
  Ultimately, the American was caned, but received the minimum strokes
possible -- the opposite of what is common in Singapore for
lesser-known convicted criminals.
  In recent years the young man, now back in the U.S., was in the news
after being accused of  physically-abusing a girlfriend.
 
[BTW, I posted essentially the same message as above on Saturday but,
after waiting two days, have not seen it online anywhere, oddly.]
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 08:39:27 PDT 1996
Article: 94201 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: FWD: Mike R. Won't help Sex Harassment in our labor unions?
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:21:41 GMT
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[Forwarded msg follows. Suggest you read it in its entirety, if
possible.]

James Greif  wrote:


>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Mike R. Wrote:

>>> Why did she file three years after the alleged incident?
> 
>Waiting for your answer on this.
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>James Greif Wrote:
>	
>	If a Female Union Member was handed a News Story in 1994
>	that would seriously damage The Female Union Members
>	Reputation (as Paula Jones was handed in #41 & #44 Court Document) 
>	you Mike R. would ask why she waited till 1994.
>	You ether did not read the court documents or you
>	care less about Sexual harassment.

>	You Mike R. represent the Union as a Vice President?

>	Just in case you want to read the Clinton v. Paula Jones
>	Civil suit Documents. Unless you think it is wrong to
>	say no to the casting couch I listed The entire Court Document.

>44. Since Jones ("Paula") was one of the women preyed upon by Clinton and
>his troopers, including
>by Defendant Ferguson, in the manner described above, those who read this
>magazine account
>could conclude falsely that Jones ("Paula") had a sexual relationship and
>affair with Clinton. Jones'
>reputation within her community was thus seriously damaged.


>On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, James Greif wrote:

>> 
>> 	In early 1990s I was told that all sexual harassment
>> 	would not be tolerated by anyone in a sexual harassment 
>> 	meeting.
>> 
>> 	I responded what if he is the president?
>> 
>> 	The female speaker said it will not matter.
>> 
>> 	Heres proof this president is above the law.
>> 
>> 
>> WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON and
>>         DANNY FERGUSON, Defendants. 
>> 
>>                    JONES v. CLINTON 
>> 
>>                      CIVIL ACTION NO. LR-C-94-290 
>> 
>>       UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE
>>      EASTERN DISTRICT OF ARKANSAS, WESTERN
>>                                DIVISION 
>> 
>>                           May 6, 1994, Filed 
>> 
>> COUNSEL: Gilbert K. Davis, VA Bar No. 4683, Fairfax, Virginia. Joseph
>> Cammarata,VA Bar
>> No. 35118, Fairfax, Virginia, Attorneys for Plaintiff. 
>> 
>> OPINION: JURY TRIAL DEMANDED 
>> 
>> COMPLAINT 
>> 
>> Plaintiff Paula Corbin Jones, by counsel, brings this action to obtain
>> redress for the deprivation and
>> conspiracy to deprive Plaintiff of her federally protected rights as
>> hereafter alleged, and for
>> intentional infliction of emotional distress, and for defamation. 
>> 
>> JURISDICTION 
>> 
>> 1. This Court has subject matter jurisdiction pursuant to (a) 28 U.S.C. @
>> 1331, because the case
>> arises under the Constitution and laws of the United States; (b) 28 U.S.C.
>> @ 1343, because this
>> action seeks redress and damages for violation of 42 U.S.C. @@ 1983 and
>> 1985 and, in particular,
>> the due process and equal protection provisions of the United States
>> Constitution, including the
>> rights protected in the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments thereof; and (c)
>> 28 U.S.C. @ 1232, since
>> there is diversity of citizenship and this is a civil action involving,
>> exclusive of interest and costs, a
>> sum in excess of $ 50,000.00. This Court also has jurisdiction over the
>> causes of action alleged in
>> Counts III and IV pursuant to federal pendant jurisdiction. 
>> 
>> VENUE 
>> 
>> 2. Venue is appropriate in this judicial district under 28 U.S.C.
>> @1391(b), because Defendants
>> William Jefferson Clinton and Danny Ferguson reside here, and a
>> substantial part of the events giving
>> rise to this Complaint occurred here. 
>> 
>> THE PARTIES 
>> 
>> 3. Plaintiff Paula Corbin Jones (hereafter "Jones") is a citizen of the
>> State of California. Prior to her
>> marriage on December 28, 1991, Plaintiff was known as Paula Rosalee
>> Corbin. 
>> 
>> 4. Defendant William Jefferson Clinton (hereafter "Clinton") is a citizen
>> of the State of Arkansas or
>> alternatively of the District of Columbia. 
>> 
>> 5. Defendant Danny Ferguson (hereafter "Ferguson") is a citizen of the
>> State of Arkansas. 
>> 
>> FACTS 
>> 
>> 6. On or about March 11, 1991, Jones began work as an Arkansas State
>> employee for the
>> Arkansas Industrial Development Commission (hereafter "AIDC"), an agency
>> within the executive
>> branch of the State of Arkansas. The Governor of Arkansas is the chief
>> executive officer of the
>> executive branch of the State of Arkansas. 
>> 
>> 7. On May 8, 1991, the AIDC sponsored the Third Annual Governor's Quality
>> Management
>> Conference (hereafter "Conference"), which was held at the Excelsior Hotel
>> in Little Rock,
>> Arkansas. Clinton, then Governor of Arkansas, delivered a speech at the
>> Conference on that day. 
>> 
>> 8. Also on that day, Jones worked at the registration desk at the
>> Conference along with Pamela
>> Blackard (hereafter "Blackard") another AIDC employee. 
>> 
>> 9. A man approached the registration desk and informed Jones and Blackard
>> that he was Trooper
>> Danny Ferguson, Bill Clinton's bodyguard. Defendant Ferguson was at that
>> time a law enforcement
>> officer within the ranks of the Arkansas State Police and assigned to the
>> Governor's Security Detail.
>> He was in street clothes and displayed a firearm on his person. He made
>> small talk with Jones and
>> Blackard and then left. 
>> 
>> 10. At approximately 2:30 p.m. on that day, Ferguson reappeared at the
>> registration desk, delivered
>> a piece of paper to Jones with a four digit number written on it and said:
>> "The Governor would like
>> to meet with you" in this suite number. Plaintiff had never met Defendant
>> Clinton and saw him in
>> person for the first time at the Conference. 
>> 
>> 
>> 11. A three-way conversation followed between Ferguson, Blackard and Jones
>> about what the
>> Governor could want. Jones, who was then a rank-and-file Arkansas state
>> employee being paid
>> approximately $ 6.35 an hour, thought it was an honor to be asked to meet
>> the Governor. Ferguson
>> stated during the conversation: "It's okay, we do this all the time for
>> the Governor." 
>> 
>> 12. Jones agreed to meet with the Governor because she thought it might
>> lead to an enhanced
>> employment opportunity with the State. Blackard told Jones that she would
>> assume Plaintiff's duties
>> at the registration desk. 
>> 
>> 13. Trooper Ferguson then escorted Jones to the floor of the hotel suite
>> whose number had been
>> written on the slip of paper Trooper Ferguson had given to Jones. The door
>> was slightly ajar when
>> she arrived at the suite. 
>> 
>> 14. Jones knocked on the door frame and Clinton answered. Plaintiff
>> entered. Ferguson remained
>> outside. 
>> 
>> 15. The room was furnished as a business suite, not for an overnight hotel
>> guest. It contained a
>> couch and chairs, but no bed. 
>> 
>> 16. Clinton shook Jones' hand, invited her in, and closed the door. 
>> 
>> 17. A few minutes of small talk ensued, which included asking Jones about
>> her job. Clinton told
>> Jones that Dave Harrington is "my good friend." On May 8, 1991, David
>> Harrington was Director of
>> the AIDC, having been appointed to that post by Governor Clinton.
>> Harrington was Jones' ultimate
>> superior within the AIDC. 
>> 
>> 18. Clinton then took Jones' hand and pulled her toward him, so that their
>> bodies were in close
>> proximity. 
>> 
>> 19. Jones removed her hand from his and retreated several feet. 
>> 
>> 20. However, Clinton approached Jones again. He said: "I love the way your
>> hair flows down your
>> back" and "I love your curves." While saying these things, Clinton put his
>> hand on Plaintiff's leg and
>> started sliding it toward the hem of Plaintiff's culottes. Clinton also
>> bent down to attempt to kiss
>> Jones on the neck. 
>> 
>> 21. Jones exclaimed, "What are you doing?" and escaped from Clinton's
>> physical proximity by
>> walking away from him. Jones tried to distract Clinton by chatting with
>> him about his wife. Jones
>> later took a seat at the end of the sofa nearest the door. Clinton asked
>> Jones: "Are you married?"
>> She responded that she had a regular boyfriend. Clinton then approached
>> the sofa and as he sat
>> down he lowered his trousers and underwear exposing his erect penis and
>> asked Jones to "kiss it." 
>> 
>> 22. There were distinguishing characteristics in Clinton's genital area
>> that were obvious to Jones. 
>> 
>> 23. Jones became horrified, jumped up from the couch, stated that she was
>> "not that kind of girl"
>> and said: "Look, I've got to go." She attempted to explain that she would
>> get in trouble for being
>> away from the registration desk. 
>> 
>> 24. Clinton, while fondling his penis said: "Well, I don't want to make
>> you do anything you don't
>> want to do." Clinton then stood up and pulled up his pants and said: "If
>> you get in trouble for leaving
>> work, have Dave call me immediately and I'll take care of it." As Jones
>> left the room Clinton looked
>> sternly at Jones and said: "You are smart. Let's keep this between
>> ourselves." 
>> 
>> 25. Jones believed "Dave" to be the same David Harrington, of whom Clinton
>> previously referred.
>> Clinton, by his comments about Harrington to Jones, affirmed that he had
>> control over Jones'
>> employment, and that he was willing to use that power. Jones became
>> fearful that her refusal to
>> succumb to Clinton's advances could damage her in her job and even
>> jeopardize her employment. 
>> 
>> 26. At no time, nor in any manner, did Jones encourage Clinton to turn the
>> meeting toward a sexual
>> liaison. To the contrary, the unwanted sexual advances made by Clinton
>> were repugnant and
>> abhorrent to Jones who took all reasonable steps she could think to do to
>> terminate Clinton's
>> perverse attention and actions toward her. 
>> 
>> 
>> 27. Jones left the hotel suite and came into the presence of Trooper
>> Fergusonin the hallway.
>> Ferguson did not escort Plaintiff back to the registration desk. Jones
>> said nothing to Ferguson and he
>> said nothing to her during her departure from the suite. 
>> 
>> 28. Jones was visibly shaken and upset when she returned to the
>> registration desk. Pamela Blackard
>> immediately asked her what was wrong. After a moment, during which Jones
>> attempted to collect
>> herself, she told Blackard much of what had happened. Blackard attempted
>> to comfort Plaintiff. 
>> 
>> 29. Jones thereafter left the Conference and went to the work place of her
>> friend, Debra Ballentine. 
>> 
>> 30. When Ballentine met Plaintiff at the reception area, she immediately
>> asked Jones what was
>> wrong because Jones was visibly upset and nervous. Plaintiff wanted to
>> talk about something that
>> just happened and wanted to discuss it someplace privately. Ballentine and
>> Jones went to a private
>> area in the office, and later outside. Jones then told Ballentine what had
>> happened with Clinton in the
>> hotel suite. According to Ballentine, Jones told her that Clinton said as
>> she left the room, "I know
>> you're a smart girl and I'm sure you'll keep this to yourself." 
>> 
>> 31. Ballentine urged Jones to report the incident. Plaintiff refused,
>> fearing that, if she did so, no one
>> would believe her account, that she would lose her job, and that the
>> incident would endanger her
>> relationship with her then-fiance (now husband), Stephen Jones. 
>> 
>> 32. Later, on the same day, Plaintiff also described the substance of her
>> encounter with Clinton to
>> her sister, Charlotte Corbin Brown. 
>> 
>> 33. Within two days or May 8, 1991, Plaintiff also informed her sister,
>> Lydia Corbin Cathey, and
>> her mother, Delmar Lee Corbin, the substance of her encounter with
>> Clinton. 
>> 
>> 
>> 34. Plaintiff also told her fiance, Stephen Jones, that "Bill Clinton made
>> a pass at me but I said 'no'."
>> She, however, did not at that time tell him the lurid details of her
>> horrific encounter with Clinton in the
>> hotel suite, which she feared, if disclosed, might ruin her relationship
>> with Mr. Jones 
>> 
>> 35. Plaintiff continued to work at AIDC. One of her duties was to deliver
>> documents to and from
>> the Office of the Governor, as well as other offices within the Arkansas
>> State Capitol complex. In or
>> about June, 1991, while Jones was performing this duty, Ferguson saw her
>> at the Governor's office
>> and said: "Bill wants your phone number. Hillary's out of town often and
>> Bill would like to see you."
>> Plaintiff refused to provide her telephone number. 
>> 
>> 36. On another occasion, Ferguson approached Jones and asked: "How's
>> Steve?" This frightened
>> Plaintiff and made her feel as if she was being watched and was not safe.
>> She had never told
>> Ferguson or Clinton the name of her fiance. 
>> 
>> 37. Plaintiff and Stephen Jones later married. She gave birth to her child
>> and returned to work, after
>> which she encountered Ferguson at Governor Clinton's office. Ferguson told
>> her: "I've told Bill how
>> good looking you are since you've had the baby." This, too, frightened
>> Plaintiff and made her feel
>> that her activities were being monitored. 
>> 
>> 38. On one occasion, Plaintiff was accosted by Clinton in the Rotunda of
>> the Arkansas State
>> Capitol. Clinton draped his arm over Plaintiff, pulled her close and
>> tightly to his body and said:
>> "Don't we make a beautiful couple -- beauty and the beast?" Clinton
>> directed this remark to his
>> bodyguard, Trooper Larry Patterson, an officer of the Arkansas State
>> Police and also a member of
>> the Governor's Security Detail. 
>> 
>> 39. Jones continued to work at AIDC even though she was in constant fear
>> that Governor Clinton
>> might take retaliatory action against her because of her rejection of his
>> abhorrent sexual advances.
>> Her enjoyment of her work was severely diminished. In fact, she was
>> treated in a hostile and rude
>> manner by certain superiors in AIDC. This rude conduct had not happened
>> prior to her encounter
>> with Clinton. Further, after her maternity leave she was transferred to a
>> position which had no
>> responsible duties for which she could be adequately evaluated to earn
>> advancement. The reason
>> given to her by her superiors for the transfer was that her previous
>> position had been eliminated. This
>> reason was untrue since her former position was not abolished. It was a
>> pretext for the real reason
>> which was that she was being punished for her rejection of the various
>> advances made by Clinton
>> described above. In addition, the job in which she was placed called for a
>> higher grade and pay, yet
>> she was not paid more money than she received in her previous position.
>> Although other employees
>> received merit increases, Jones never received a raise beyond a cost of
>> living increase. 
>> 
>> 40. Jones terminated her employment and separated from AIDC service on
>> February 20, 1993. On
>> May 4, 1993, Plaintiff, her husband and child moved to California. 
>> 
>> 41. In January, 1994, Plaintiff visited her family and friends in
>> Arkansas. While Jones was in
>> Arkansas, Ms. Ballentine telephoned Jones to arrange a meeting for lunch.
>> During the telephone
>> conversation, Ballentine read to Plaintiff a paragraph from an article
>> published in the January, 1994
>> issue of The American Spectator magazine regarding Plaintiff's hotel suite
>> encounter with Clinton.
>> Attached hereto, and incorporated herein, as Exhibit "A" is a copy of The
>> American Spectator
>> article. 
>> 42. The American Spectator account asserts that a woman by the name of
>> "Paula" told an unnamed
>> trooper (obviously Defendant Ferguson), who had escorted "Paula" to
>> Clinton's hotel room, that
>> "she was available to be Clinton's regular girl friend if he so desired,"
>> thus implying a consummated
>> and satisfying sexual encounter with Clinton, as well as a willingness to
>> continue a sexual relationship
>> with him. These assertions are untrue. The article, using information
>> apparently derived from
>> Ferguson, also incorrectly asserts that the encounter took place in the
>> evening. 
>> 
>> 43. The American Spectator account also asserted that the troopers'
>> "'official' duties included
>> facilitating Clinton's cheating on his wife. This meant that, on the State
>> payroll, and using State time,
>> vehicles and resources, they were instructed by Clinton on a regular basis
>> to approach women and
>> to solicit their telephone numbers for the Governor, to drive him in State
>> vehicles to rendezvous
>> points and guard him during sexual encounters; to secure hotel rooms and
>> other meeting places for
>> sex; . . ." and various other things to facilitate Clinton's sex life
>> including "to help Clinton cover-up his
>> activities by keeping tabs on Hillary's whereabouts and lying to Hillary
>> about her husband's
>> whereabouts." Although this pattern of conduct by Clinton may be true, the
>> magazine article
>> concluded, evidently from interviews with troopers from Clinton's Security
>> Detail, including
>> Ferguson, that "all of the women appear to have been willing participants
>> in the affairs and liaisons
>> [emphasis added]." 
>> 
>> 44. Since Jones ("Paula") was one of the women preyed upon by Clinton and
>> his troopers, including
>> by Defendant Ferguson, in the manner described above, those who read this
>> magazine account
>> could conclude falsely that Jones ("Paula") had a sexual relationship and
>> affair with Clinton. Jones'
>> reputation within her community was thus seriously damaged. 
>> 
>> 
>> 45. Jones realized that those persons who already knew about the hotel
>> room encounter could
>> identify her as the "Paula" mentioned in The American Spectator article.
>> She became extremely
>> upset because, inter alia, she feared that the statements in the magazine
>> would damage her
>> relationship with her husband, her family, and her friends and
>> acquaintances, some of whom might
>> have believed that she had agreed to be Clinton's "girl friend" at a time
>> when she was engaged to Mr.
>> Jones. 
>> 
>> 46. On January 8, 1994, at approximately 12:00 noon, Jones and Ballentine
>> were dining at the
>> Golden Corral Steakhouse in North Little Rock, Arkansas. Trooper Ferguson,
>> who happened to be
>> dining with his wife at this restaurant, came over to their table to talk
>> to Jones. Since Jones believed
>> that the ultimate source of the report in The American Spectator of the
>> hotel suite encounter was
>> Trooper Ferguson, she confronted him on this matter. Trooper Ferguson
>> stated that he was sorry
>> that Jones' first name had appeared in the magazine article but that he
>> had purposely concealed her
>> last name and place of employment from those to whom he recounted the
>> incident. Trooper
>> Ferguson also said that he knew Jones had rebuffed Mr. Clinton's sexual
>> advances because,
>> "Clinton told me you wouldn't do anything anyway, Paula." 
>> 
>> 47. Because the false statements appearing in The American Spectator
>> article that Jones was willing
>> to have sex with Clinton (and the innuendo that she had already done so
>> when she left the hotel
>> suite) threatened her marriage, her friendships, and her family
>> relationships, Plaintiff spoke publicly
>> on February 11, 1994, that she was the "Paula" mentioned in The American
>> Spectator article, that
>> she had rebuffed Clinton's sexual advances, and that she had not expressed
>> a willingness to be his
>> girl friend. Jones and her lawyer asked that Clinton acknowledge the
>> incident, state that Jones had
>> rejected Clinton's advances, and apologize to Jones. 
>> 
>> 48. Clinton, who is now President of the United States of America
>> responded to Jones' request for
>> an apology by having his press spokespersons deliver a statement on his
>> behalf that the incident
>> never happened, and that he never met Plaintiff. Thus, by innuendo and
>> effect, Clinton publicly
>> branded Plaintiff a liar. Moreover, as recently as the week this Complaint
>> was filed, Clinton, through
>> his White House aides, stated that Plaintiff's account of the hotel room
>> incident was untrue and a
>> "cheap political trick." 
>> 
>> 49. Clinton hired an attorney, who, as Clinton's agent, said that Jones'
>> account "is really just another
>> effort to rewrite the results of the election [i.e. for President of the
>> United States] and . . . distract the
>> President from his agenda." The attorney further asked the question: "Why
>> are these claims being
>> brought now, three years after the fact?" The attorney also asked how
>> Jones' allegations could be
>> taken "seriously." These comments by Clinton's counsel, on behalf of
>> Clinton, imply that Jones is a
>> liar 
>> 
>> 50. Dee Dee Meyers, White House Spokeswoman, said of Jones' allegations:
>> "It's just not true."
>> Thus, the pattern of defaming Jones continues to this date. 
>> 
>> 51. Clinton knows that Jones' allegations are true and that his, and his
>> attorney's, spokespersons',
>> and agents' denials are false. 
>> 
>> 52. The outrageous nature of Clinton's branding of Jones as a liar is
>> aggravated in that a greater
>> stigma and reputation loss is suffered by Jones by the statements of the
>> President of the United
>> States in whom the general public reposes trust and confidence in the
>> integrity of the holder of that
>> office. 
>> 
>> 53. Clinton, a member of the Arkansas State Bar, knew or should have known
>> on May 8, 1991,
>> and thereafter, that Arkansas law provides that harassment, including the
>> touching or attempt or
>> threat to do so which subjects the victim to offensive or potentially
>> offensive physical contact, is a
>> criminal violation of Arkansas Code Annotated 5-71-208. 
>> 
>> 
>> 54. While Jones was in Clinton's hotel suite, Jones was falsely imprisoned
>> by Clinton's intentional
>> restriction of her personal freedom of movement without legal right.
>> Clinton's use of force in pulling
>> Jones toward him, his words and acts, and the armed police guard outside
>> the door, in conjunction
>> with the impressive atmosphere of her being alone with the Governor of the
>> State who was also her
>> superior's boss, caused her to be initially and, temporarily afraid to
>> terminate the meeting. 
>> 
>> 55. The statements, acts, and omissions of Clinton's agents, servants, and
>> employees who acted
>> under his explicit and implicit instructions and supervision, during the
>> pertinent periods herein when
>> he was Governor of Arkansas, and after he became President, bind Clinton
>> under the doctrines of
>> agency, joint conduct, master-servant, respondent superior, and
>> conspiracy. 
>> 
>> 56. The actions of the Arkansas state employees, including Defendant
>> Ferguson and other agents of
>> Clinton were taken under color of state law. 
>> 
>> 57. Clinton's actions and omissions above stated caused Jones
>> embarrassment, humiliation, fear,
>> emotional distress, horror, grief, shame, marital discord and loss of
>> reputation. 
>> 
>> COUNT I 
>> 
>> DEPRIVATION OF CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES 
>> 
>> (42 U.S.C. @ 1983) 58. Plaintiff incorporates by reference paragraphs 1
>> through 57. 
>> 
>> 59. Plaintiff is entitled to the equal protection of the laws under the
>> Fourteenth Amendment of the
>> United States Constitution, and due process of law under the Fifth and
>> Fourteenth Amendments of
>> the United States Constitution. 
>> 
>> 60. Defendant Clinton, as Governor of Arkansas, acting under color of
>> state law, discriminated
>> against Plaintiff because of her gender by sexually harassing and
>> assaulting her on May 8, 1991, and
>> thereafter, and this deprived Jones of her right to equal protection of
>> the law. 
>> 
>> 61. Further, he continued personally, and through agents, to impose a
>> hostile work environment on
>> Plaintiff in which she feared the loss of her employment and the possible
>> adverse employment actions
>> against her, including job discrimination and monitoring of her personal
>> life. As described above she
>> was placed in a category separate from other public employees in that she
>> was actually subjected to
>> hostility by her superiors, which deprived her of an opportunity for
>> advancement and she suffered an
>> economic depravation. 
>> 
>> 62. Plaintiff, as a citizen and Arkansas state employee, was entitled to
>> due process protection of
>> freedom from arbitrary action which jeopardized her property interest in
>> her public employee job in
>> that she should not have been subjected arbitrarily to the fear of losing
>> that job or of having to
>> provide sex to the Governor as a quid pro quo for keeping the job. Further,
>> she should not have
>> been subjected arbitrarily to the fear of losing the enjoyment of a proper
>> and pleasant work
>> environment, or to other adverse actions which she feared and which
>> deprived her of the proper
>> enjoyment and efficiency of her work. Clinton's actions deprived Jones of
>> her due process liberty
>> and property interests guaranteed to her by the Constitution of the United
>> States. 
>> 
>> 
>> 63. Plaintiff also was entitled to a due process liberty interest in her
>> reputation as an honest public
>> employee. Clinton's actions and statements deprived Jones of these rights. 
>> 
>> 64. Plaintiff, for a brief period of time, was held against her will by
>> the oppressive atmosphere of
>> intimidation caused by the presence of the highest official of the State
>> of Arkansas and an armed
>> guard at the door. Not only was she subjected to unwelcome sexual
>> advances, but also was
>> personally restrained and imprisoned by the seizing of her person, against
>> her will, by Clinton and his
>> agent. 
>> 
>> 65. The above-described actions of Clinton were undertaken when he was
>> acting under the color of
>> state law, as Governor of Arkansas, and said actions deprived Jones of
>> federal equal protection and
>> due process rights guaranteed by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments of
>> the United States
>> Constitution, and made actionable by 42 U.S.C. @ 1983 (The Civil Rights
>> Act). 
>> 
>> COUNT II 
>> 
>> CONSPIRACY TO DEPRIVING PERSONS OF EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS
>> 
>> (42 U.S.C. @ 1985) 
>> 
>> 66. Plaintiff incorporates by reference paragraphs 1 through 65. 
>> 
>> 67. Clinton conspired with his Security Detail, including with Defendant
>> Ferguson, and perhaps with
>> others currently unknown to this Plaintiff, to deprive Jones of equal
>> protection of the laws and of
>> equal privileges and immunities under the laws, as further set forth in
>> Count I above. 
>> 
>> 68. The conspirators committed some acts in furtherance of the conspiracy
>> which included
>> contacting Jones and bringing her to Clinton on May 8, 1991 to permit him
>> to attempt to entice her
>> on to have a sexual liaison with him. 
>> 
>> 69. As a result of the conspiracy, Jones was injured by Defendants in her
>> person and property and
>> deprived of having and exercising her rights and privileges as a citizen
>> of the United States, as is
>> more fully set forth in Count I. 
>> 
>> COUNT III 
>> 
>> INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS 
>> 70. Plaintiff incorporates by reference paragraphs 1 through 69. 
>> 
>> 71. The conduct of Clinton herein set forth was odious, perverse and
>> outrageous. Not only were the
>> acts of sexual perversity unwelcome by Jones, but they were wilful,
>> wanton, reckless, intentional,
>> persistent and continuous in the hotel room. 
>> 
>> 72. Clinton's sexual advances, assaults upon and imprisonment of Jones'
>> person, and his exposure of
>> his erect penis and his requests of acts to be performed thereupon were
>> extreme, intentional, and
>> caused Jones severe emotional distress. 
>> 
>> 73. Not content with the events in the hotel on May 8, 1991, Clinton on
>> subsequent occasions,
>> acting himself and through his agents, as specified above, aggravated
>> further the initial severe
>> emotional damage to Jones. 
>> 
>> 74. These actions were so outrageous in character, and extreme in degree,
>> as to go beyond all
>> possible bounds of decency, and to be regarded as atrocious and utterly
>> intolerable in a civilized
>> society. 
>> 
>> COUNT IV 
>> 
>> DEFAMATION 75. Plaintiff incorporates by reference paragraphs 1 through
>> 74. 
>> 
>> 76. On several occasions on and after February 11, 1994, Clinton, and his
>> agents and employees
>> acting pursuant to his direction, maliciously and wilfully, defamed Jones
>> by making statements which
>> Clinton knew to be false. These statements were made with the intent and
>> certain knowledge that
>> they would be reprinted in the print and other media. 
>> 
>> 77. Such statements by Clinton, his agents and employees, characterized
>> Jones as a liar and as being
>> "pathetic," and damaged her good name, character, and reputation. 
>> 
>> 78. Defendant Ferguson's statements likewise maliciously and will fully
>> defamed plaintiff and
>> damaged her good name, character and reputation. Ferguson's statement that
>> Jones had agreed to
>> be Clinton's girl friend, and his innuendo that she had willingly
>> participated in a sexual encounter,
>> were knowingly false. 
>> 
>> 79. That Ferguson knew these statements were false is confirmed by
>> Clinton's denial to Ferguson
>> that anything happened of a sexual nature between Clinton and Jones. 
>> 
>> RELIEF REQUESTED 
>> 
>> WHEREFORE, Plaintiff requests the following relief: 
>> 
>> a. Count I, judgment against Defendant Clinton for compensatory damages of
>> $ 75,000.00; punitive
>> damages for Defendant's wilful, outrageous and malicious conduct, of $
>> 100,000.00; the costs of her
>> suit and attorneys' fees; nominal damages, and such other and further
>> relief as the Court may deem
>> proper. 
>> 
>> b. Count II, judgment against Defendant Clinton and Defendant Ferguson,
>> jointly and severally for
>> compensatory damages of $ 75,000.00; punitive damages for Defendant's
>> wilful, outrageous and
>> malicious conduct, of $ 100,000.00; the costs of her suit and attorney's
>> fees; nominal damages, and
>> such other and further relief as the Court may deem proper. 
>> c. Count III, judgment against Defendant Clinton for compensatory damages
>> of $ 75,000.00;
>> punitive damages for Defendant's wilful, outrageous and malicious
>> statements and conduct, of $
>> 100,000.00; the costs of her suit and attorneys' fees; nominal damages,
>> and such other and further
>> relief as the Court may deem proper. 
>> 
>> d. Count IV, judgment against Defendant Clinton and Defendant Ferguson,
>> jointly and severally for
>> compensatory damages of $ 75,000.00; punitive damages for Defendant's
>> wilful, outrageous and
>> malicious statements and conduct, of $ 100,000.00; the costs of her
>> suit
>> and attorneys' fees; nominal
>> damages, and such other and further relief as the Court may deem proper. 
>> 
>> JURY TRIAL DEMANDED 
>> 
>> Plaintiff demands a trial by jury on each of the counts. 
>> 
>> Respectfully Submitted, 
>> 
>> PAULA CORBIN JONES 
>> By Her Counsel 
>> 
>> 
>> Gilbert K. Davis, VA Bar No. 4683 
>> Attorney for Plaintiff 
>> 9516-C Lee Highway 
>> Fairfax, Virginia 22031 
>> (703) 352-3850 
>> 
>> and 
>> 
>> Joseph Cammarata, VA Bar No. 35118 
>> Attorney for Plaintiff 
>> 9516-C Lee Highway 
>> Fairfax, Virginia 22031 
>> (703) 352-3850 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 08:39:28 PDT 1996
Article: 94247 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Holding Cell for Law Offenders in DL - Truth or Fiction
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 04:29:10 GMT
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Shaun and Karen Buhler  wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote to Rick West:

>Say, have you ever READ anything Rick West has ever posted? He's the
>very, very last person most people would think to accuse of being afraid
>to irritate Disneyland management.
[snip]
>He is, after all, the one who exposed the plans to shut down Carnation and extend the
>bakery, to mention just a couple of big, professional risks he's taken
>to tell the truth.

  ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 08:39:29 PDT 1996
Article: 94248 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Holding Cell for Law Offenders in DL - Truth or Fiction
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 04:35:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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rwesttpa@server.snni.com (Rick_West) wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>:   Look, frankly, methinks it's *you,* if anyone, whose credibility
>: oughta be questioned in this matter.
>:   You're the admitted Editor/Publisher of an industry publication,
>: right  . . . could it be, *possibly*, that you fear losing your
>: sources, access, etc. if you stopped using that silly euphemism

>	You're definitely new here; either that, or too foolish not to 
>read up on my past posts before making such an incredibly stupid 
>statement, which couldn't further from the truth.  As a member of the 
>media, I am often vocal about Disneyland - sometimes it can be very 
>stinging and critical - other times, I often rave about things at the 
>Park. 

  Hey, I just got finished reading about the DAMN COURAGEOUS stand you
took against The Disney Company  regarding extending the park's
bakery, as well as what's apparently come to be known as  the
company's notorious Carnation Decision. :-0  
  ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 08:39:29 PDT 1996
Article: 94249 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
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Dan  wrote:

  Go to hell -- you know, the fiery "inferno" where ya obviously
belong -- "dante." ;-)

(PS: I really feel great in the knowledge that, were he alive today,
that "right-wing homophobe" Walt Disney would likely prefer to close
up shop than to have such politically-correct pinheads such as
yourself applauding the continuing corruption of his vision.)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 15:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 94376 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 1996 03:59:51 GMT
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Bart  wrote:

>I really was going to let this thread die, but I must speak out.

>I don't believe the story. There are too many aspects of the story that
>don't make sense. 
[snip]
>$500 for civil damages? Perhaps it is bail, perhaps it is
>'administrative costs', but I still doubt it.

  They call it "civil damages" and it's typically been requested in
the presence of a local police officer -- thus the accused's
assumption that it's an "official request" and will "take care" of the
situation.
  One police spokesman suggested, and I quote, that it was "unethical"
to request such $500 payments in front of cops who have NOTHING TO DO
WITH THE REQUEST.

>I know for a fact one thing. You don't get arrested at Disneyland unless
>you work VERY, VERY, hard at it. They don't want the story,"my son was
>arrested", out there. It ruins the park for everyone.

   Amazing. Truly amazing.
   This is a good example of someone who's essentially ignorant of the
basic facts of the matter making what are, therefore, rather baseless,
meaningless comments.
  Really, if you're going to make all kinds of crazy statements, then
at the least you should READ THE DAMN ARTICLES IN THE ORANGE COUNTY
REGISTER NEWSPAPER FIRST before weighing in with how you *think*
Disney just *couldn't* be guilty of such obnoxious, money-grubbing
behavior.
  BTW, I HATE shoplifting and would be the first to applaud the
apprehension of GENUINE shoplifters. However, even -- especially --
after reading the responses of paid Disney mouthpiece/PR man Tom
Brocato regarding the allegations, I really tend to see Disney as
guilty as charged.
  Sorry to sound so caustic, but your obvious ignorance of the basic
elements of the situation will only breed more ignorance if left
unchallenged.
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 08:16:43 PDT 1996
Article: 70857 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Is this the same 'Pie Man' who attacked Phyllis Schlafly? [was: Re: New JFK Assassination Web Page]
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 04:04:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  Wait a minute . . . "Aron Kay"?
  Are you the same "Aron *Pie Man* Kay" who hit Phyllis Schlafly (and
other conservatives) in the face with pies?
  IMO, whoever did that is a domestic terrorist. A criminal.
  Were you ever brought to justice for that action (if you *are* the
same "Aron Kay" who, if memory serves, did it)?
  Has anyone ever slammed a pie -- a SH*T pie, perhaps -- in YOUR face
as a just reward for your pranks, if you're indeed the same "Aron *Pie
Man* Kay" of notoriety?
  If they did such a thing, do you think you'd find it enjoyable?
  Didn't the papers quote you, around the time of the Democrat
convention last summer, because you were one of the radicals who
rioted in Chicago duringthe Dems convention almost 30 years ago
(1968)?
  As I recall, you said your legs aren't what they used to be. You
said you can't run away anymore like you used to.
  
pieman@mojo.calyx.net (Aron -Pieman- Kay) wrote:

>[ Article crossposted from alt.gathering.rainbow ]
>[ Author was Aron Kay ]
>[ Posted on Tue, 1 Oct 1996 02:50:35 -0400 ]

>AJ Weberman,famed Dylanologist and author of Coup d'etat in America has
>upgraded his web page on the JFK Assassination with more surprises to
>come.The address is :http://www.weberman.com (JFK Assassination Home)

>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>                   Peace and Justice for All
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>						Aron Kay
>						Pieman@calyx.com






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 09:51:35 PDT 1996
Article: 94525 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Holding Cell for Law Offenders in DL - Truth or Fiction
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Shaun and Karen Buhler  wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>> 
>> Shaun and Karen Buhler  wrote:
>> 
>> >joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote to Rick West:
>> 
>> >Say, have you ever READ anything Rick West has ever posted? He's the
>> >very, very last person most people would think to accuse of being afraid
>> >to irritate Disneyland management.
>> [snip]
>> >He is, after all, the one who exposed the plans to shut down Carnation and extend the
>> >bakery, to mention just a couple of big, professional risks he's taken
>> >to tell the truth.
>> 
>>   ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>Really? Why?

  Look, I realize such things as "shutting down Carnation" and the
disturbing decision to extend the bakery -- now known, isn't it, as
The Sourdough Incident of 1995? -- are very important things to you,
and I don't wish to make light of them.
  However, the issues I was bringing up -- based on the original
newpaper articles -- are, IMO, MUCH, MUCH more important.
  If Mr. West, the publisher of a theme-park-industry publication, and
you other Disney freaks took the alleged repeated violation of
park-goers' civil rights as seriously as you do such things as "the
shutting down of Carnation" (NO!) or "the extension of the bakery" (EE
GADS! NOT *THAT*!) I'd find it refreshing. 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 09:51:38 PDT 1996
Article: 94533 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
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goddess@intac.com (Jillian) wrote:

>> (PS: I really feel great in the knowledge that, were he alive today,
>> that "right-wing homophobe" Walt Disney would likely prefer to close
>> up shop than to have such politically-correct pinheads such as
>> yourself applauding the continuing corruption of his vision.)

>Joe, you still have YET to explain 1) how DL security picking up a mother
>because hers kids shoplifted has ANYTHING to do with homosexuals. 2) how
>extending benefits to unmarried domestic partners of employees corrupts
>the disney vision.

  My points are these:
1. While the Disney company is wealthy enough to extend benefit$ to
homosexuals on the one hand, it's shown itself to be outrageously
(and, it now seems, very possibly ILLEGALLY)  money-grubbing when it
falsely (at least *VERY* questionably) accuses, say, the mother of a
tot who walked out of a store holding a stuffed animal of shoplifting
-- and then asks the mom for five hundred bucks, on the spot, in
"civil damages".
  Taking from the hetero mom park goer to give to the homosexual
spouses? Sher seems like it, IMO.
  If you can't understand this I suggest you're just too pc, too much
in denial or just plain too dull, intellectually-speaking.
2.  Oh, so now Disney is also extending benefits to the "unmarried
domestic partners of employees" -- not solely to the homosexual
spouses of its employees -- as well?
  Yup, methinks you truly *are* way too pc to "get it." ;-)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 09:51:39 PDT 1996
Article: 94562 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.correct,alt.dear.whitehouse,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Israel - a Tragedy in the Making
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 04:25:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <52srb1$sp6@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>
References: <51febb$bil@sonic.net> <32496cf7.22338615@news.netheaven.com> <324A5ABD.3253@vegas.infi.net> <324b3903.7209200@news.netonecom.net> <52gito$e8v@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu>      <3251C336.7541@monmouth.com> <52rdsq$f3f@newsworthy.West.Sun.COM>
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chriskev@rohan.sdsu.edu (Chris Kevlahan) wrote:

>Marcel Duchamp (manx@monmouth.com) wrote:
>: I am very saddened to hear some American Jews talking like General
>: Custer on his way to the Little Big Horn when they discuss Palestinians.
>: Otherwise intelligent and caring people are suddenly blinded to their
>: own racism and bigotry. 
[snip]

>Poppycock!
>The Palistinians are terrorists.  

  That's just like Hitler saying "The Jews are vermin." 
  Are you so dense that you don't even see that?
  Now, SOME Palestinians are, undoubtedly, terrorists.  So are *some*
Irishmen, *some* Spaniards, etc.
  Moreover, let's not forget that Israel was led for years by a
well-known former-terrorist: Menachem Begin.
  While, like all decent people, I strongly oppose terrorism, it's
often the last option of the desperate.
   And the Palestinians are, understandably, desperate -- you'd
probably be, too, if some (entirely secular) stranger who says his
ancestors lived on *your* land thousands of years ago came to you and,
by force of arms, forcibly demanded it back because The Great Real
Estate Agent in the Sky says it's *his*. 




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 09:51:40 PDT 1996
Article: 94731 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:04:23 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 44
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Dan  wrote:


>I know that Disney has been known to give guests a bill for damages if
>they misbehave and cause the disruption (downtime) of an attraction - I
>wonder if this is along those lines.

  No, it's clearly NOT along the lines you describe above.  THAT kind
of request for civil damages I wholeheartedly agree that Disney is
justified in making. Kinda like hard rock groups which trash the hotel
rooms they stay in while on tour -- if the hotel doesn't demand the
perps pay up, the general clientele will have to pay *for* them,
ultimately. 
  The specific mother of the tot who was arrested and brought to the
Disneyland jail behind Tomorrowland after the child (age 2, I believe
the Register article stated) walked out of a store holding a stuffed
animal did not make ANY kind of disruption.
  Indeed, in the newspaper article she quoted her utter shock and
humiliation at being hauled away to the park's jail by security in
full view of hundreds of other park-goers.
  She wanted the nightmare to end ASAP and so was not inclined to make
any kind of "disruption."

>Who knows, maybe this lady is 100% correct and this situation happened
>exactly as she described with no mitigating circumstances involved. 
>Even if this DID happen, it is an isolated incident - Disney security is
>not the goon squad you seem to imply it is...

  See, again, you're essential ignorance of the basic facts leads you
to make embarrassingly-ill-informed statements.
  If you can, get ahold of all the Orange County Register issues from
last week when the first article appeared.
  The fact of the matter is that the Register has now carried
subsequent articles in the series reporting how NUMEROUS OTHER
families are now suing Disney for misbehavior similar to that which
the above-described mother of the 2-year-old was subjected to.
  I feel you're well-intentioned but, at the same time, you're making
statements (e.g. "it was an isolated incident.") which, for anyone
who's taken the time to read the news reports, are self-evidently
false.






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 09:51:41 PDT 1996
Article: 94738 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.elections,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.correct,alt.dear.whitehouse,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Israel - a Tragedy in the Making
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 04:32:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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instea  wrote:

[snip]
>	Keep an eye on Isreal. In the next few years, the temple will be 
>rebuilt...and the arabs won't like that one bit, because that means the 
>Isrealis will have possesion again of Jerusalem.

  Yup, and we'll be well into WWIII as well.
  If Netanyahu (Nut-and-yahoo) could have just restrained his urge to
humiliate the already besieged Palestinians at this time when Peace
was thought to be at hand . . . it's bad enough their land was
literally stolen by the secular citizens (largely socialists, btw) of
Israel . . . why did the Israeli leader have to incense them so?
  Really, this is a great tragedy.
  I pray that God may instill greater wisdom and decency in Mr.
Netanyahu while -- if -- there's still time.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 13:36:06 PDT 1996
Article: 94827 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Holding Cell for Law Offenders in DL - Truth or Fiction
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 03:32:47 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  I LOVE IT!
  After counseling *ME* not to "jump to conclusions," *YOU* yourself
are shown -- by the very person you were defending, moreover -- to be
COMPLETELY  WRONG regarding two unequivocal "statements of fact" you
made in the course of preaching to ME!
  :-0

rwesttpa@server.snni.com (Rick_West) wrote:

>gjw (gjw@loop.com) wrote:

>: You know, it would help if yoy would READ some of the posts here before
>: jumping to conclusions.  Rick is NOT "a publisher of an "admitted
>: Editor/Publisher of an industry publication", he runs a web-site about
>: Disneyland which is non-commercial as which is, at times, quite critical
>: of Disney management.

>	Well, thank you for the support; actually, Theme Park Adventure 
>is an International industry magazine.  TPA does not actually have a Web 
>site now, but that will certainly change in the future in a big way.
>          Richard West
>          Editor-in-Chief/Publisher
>          Theme Park Adventure

>     Taking You On A Ride Through The Past, Present And The Future...

>  * Coming Soon: TPA's Second Anniversary - It's Going To Be A BIG Event *





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 19:43:32 PDT 1996
Article: 94914 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: The H*ber Tax: Everyone has to pay.
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 00:47:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>[non-existent h*bergruppen "alt.fan.enst-zundel," and about 30 other 
>non-existent groups trimmed]

>In article <52tvqp$85t@news.ios.com>, the non-existent person
>"Beth Dailey," posting from the non-existent account 
>"" wrote:
                                  
>>SECRET KOSHER TAX BOOSTS FOOD PRICES 

>For information concerning this attempted spam, contact
>abuse@idt.net and abuse@ios.com

  Gee, who do we know who's been known to post from "ios.com" *AND* is
obviously  "obsessed" with the whole "kosher tax" issue?
  Remember the kook Dave Braun -- the individual who, just weeks ago,
gave his self-proclaimed online "swan song"?
  The nut who purported to be a retired manager for -- what was it --
Planters? (which would, as a *nut* himself, make lots of sense!)
  Most recently he/she provided me with a god laugh when he was
characterized as a "pinhead" in another, unrelated newsgroup. :-0
  BTW, the person who posted this new "KOSHER TAX" message used the
*EXACT* ng distribution list which I did a couple of days ago when
making a post. Only Braun . . . er, "Beth Dailey" . . . added
"alt.sex" and that non-existent "alt.hubergruppen" ng's.
  Could Beth Dailey = Dave Braun? (The answer is obvious, IMO!)
  Hey, they even have the same initials, only reversed! How creative!
(not!)
  Personally, I have NO DOUBT in my mind that he's connected with
initiating the current "SECRET KOSHER TAX BOOSTS FOOD PRICES" thread.
   



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  2 19:43:33 PDT 1996
Article: 94922 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: Israel - a Tragedy in the Making
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 23:51:49 GMT
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msimon@rworld.com (M Simon) wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>   And the Palestinians are, understandably, desperate -- you'd
>>probably be, too, if some (entirely secular) stranger who says his
>>ancestors lived on *your* land thousands of years ago came to you and,
>>by force of arms, forcibly demanded it back because The Great Real
>>Estate Agent in the Sky says it's *his*. 

>So. Are you proposing giving America back to the Indians?

>Simon

  Are you suggesting that two wrongs make a right?





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct  3 08:36:38 PDT 1996
Article: 71037 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Evil Palestinians
Date: Thu, 03 Oct 1996 00:10:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 30
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References: <32526d55.100018@199.0.216.204>
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  I must say, I'm actually astonished at the claim the full-page ad
makes in it's first sentence (quoted below.)
  That's because I CLEARLY recall reading in yesterday's newspaper
that on-scene Israeli military commanders, briefing political leaders
on the new Intifada, unequivocally stated that the whole tragedy began
WHEN ARMED ISRAELI SETTLERS [CIVILIANS] AND ISRAELI SOLDIERS BEGAN
FIRING AT PALESTINIANS.
  THUS, ISRAELI'S THEMSELVES ARE -- BASED ON THESE ISRAELI COMMANDERS'
OWN STATEMENTS -- TO BLAME FOR THIS OUTBREAK OF VIOLENCE.
 
tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	                  N.Y.Times, Oct. 2, 1996
>                          (Full page ad)
[snip]
>The recent deadly violence in the West Bank and Gaza started when the
>Palestinians turned to rock throwing and guns to resolve a dispute.
[snip]
>	David H. Strassler             A D L             Abraham Foxman
>     National Chairman      Anti-Defamation League   National Director

>	This is what the ADL is all about. Defending Zionist interest.

>	      Anything else they profess to defend is trash. 
[snip]

>     There never was a real "peace process". The Jews kept building,
>and building, and building. Breaking, breaking and breaking. 
[snip]



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct  3 12:03:49 PDT 1996
Article: 54168 of alt.discrimination
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Subject: Re: Israel - a Tragedy in the Making
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 23:51:49 GMT
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msimon@rworld.com (M Simon) wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>   And the Palestinians are, understandably, desperate -- you'd
>>probably be, too, if some (entirely secular) stranger who says his
>>ancestors lived on *your* land thousands of years ago came to you and,
>>by force of arms, forcibly demanded it back because The Great Real
>>Estate Agent in the Sky says it's *his*. 

>So. Are you proposing giving America back to the Indians?

>Simon

  Are you suggesting that two wrongs make a right?





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct  4 07:44:02 PDT 1996
Article: 95357 of alt.conspiracy
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Subject: Re: Israel - a Tragedy in the Making
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>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>| >>   And the Palestinians are, understandably, desperate -- you'd
>| >>probably be, too, if some (entirely secular) stranger who says his
>| >>ancestors lived on *your* land thousands of years ago came to you and,
>| >>by force of arms, forcibly demanded it back because The Great Real
>| >>Estate Agent in the Sky says it's *his*. 

>msimon@rworld.com (M Simon) wrote:
>| >So. Are you proposing giving America back to the Indians?

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com:
>|   Are you suggesting that two wrongs make a right?

  Moreover, the very comparison of (geographically-tiny) Palestine
with (geographically-HUGE) America is, for a number of significant
reasons, not entirely *kosher*. 
  (At the same time, however, I agree, there ARE some similarities
between the two. But we're talking about Israel's October, 1996
land-grabbing here -- see the subjectheader -- NOT that which occurred
in America during the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.)
  Not even considering the fact that the US government has, in fact,
taken some -- not nearly enough, though -- action to GIVE LAND BACK to
the Native Americans which it essentially allowed -- indeed,
encouraged -- white men to steal 150 years ago.
   I hope the US government gives even WAY MORE land back to the
Native American Indians, in fact. That would be just.
  Israel, OTOH, continues to TAKE LAND AWAY from its Palestinian
owners -- now, today, in 1996, not the early 1800s when the kinds of
racist mindsets which permitted whites to self-righteously steal
Indians' lands was more prevalent.
  And to think: 1990s Socialist Israel, which prides itself on the
high educational levels of its population, of its high-standing in
several high-tech areas, practices the EXACT SAME KINDS OF RACIST
LAND-GRABBING WHICH WHITES PRACTICED AGAINST NATIVE AMERICAN 
INDIANS 150 YEARS AGO!
  The modern-day Israeli land-grabbers even use the same term to
describe themselves that the racists who stole the Indians' lands did:
"settlers"!
  To their credit, at least most Americans nowadays would, IMO, agree
that it was WRONG to kick the Native Americans off their lands.
  If the members of ANY group in our society could arguably be
entitled to special government policies and benefits, in fact, it'd be
the Native American Indians.
  And yup, I *still* consider myself to be basically a "right-wing
libertarian." 
   But, ultimately, the issue at hand is Israel, and its theft of
Palestinian lands. 
  To those who, understandably, want to divert a discussion of
Israel's land theft to a discussion of the Native Americans' loss of
their land, I say. "See the subject header of this thread. Then -- if
it's American land history you wanna talk about -- start a *different*
thread."




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct  4 07:44:03 PDT 1996
Article: 95376 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.org.cia,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Re: New anti-CIA urban legend gains speed
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 01:35:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Pearl Gladstone  wrote:

> It does 
>indeed help to get to know the wolves. The better to eat them, my dear!

  I ljust ove when you talk *dirty*, Pearl. ;-)




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct  4 18:24:37 PDT 1996
Article: 54226 of alt.discrimination
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.correct,alt.dear.whitehouse,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Israel - a Tragedy in the Making
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 02:19:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>| >>   And the Palestinians are, understandably, desperate -- you'd
>| >>probably be, too, if some (entirely secular) stranger who says his
>| >>ancestors lived on *your* land thousands of years ago came to you and,
>| >>by force of arms, forcibly demanded it back because The Great Real
>| >>Estate Agent in the Sky says it's *his*. 

>msimon@rworld.com (M Simon) wrote:
>| >So. Are you proposing giving America back to the Indians?

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com:
>|   Are you suggesting that two wrongs make a right?

  Moreover, the very comparison of (geographically-tiny) Palestine
with (geographically-HUGE) America is, for a number of significant
reasons, not entirely *kosher*. 
  (At the same time, however, I agree, there ARE some similarities
between the two. But we're talking about Israel's October, 1996
land-grabbing here -- see the subjectheader -- NOT that which occurred
in America during the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries.)
  Not even considering the fact that the US government has, in fact,
taken some -- not nearly enough, though -- action to GIVE LAND BACK to
the Native Americans which it essentially allowed -- indeed,
encouraged -- white men to steal 150 years ago.
   I hope the US government gives even WAY MORE land back to the
Native American Indians, in fact. That would be just.
  Israel, OTOH, continues to TAKE LAND AWAY from its Palestinian
owners -- now, today, in 1996, not the early 1800s when the kinds of
racist mindsets which permitted whites to self-righteously steal
Indians' lands was more prevalent.
  And to think: 1990s Socialist Israel, which prides itself on the
high educational levels of its population, of its high-standing in
several high-tech areas, practices the EXACT SAME KINDS OF RACIST
LAND-GRABBING WHICH WHITES PRACTICED AGAINST NATIVE AMERICAN 
INDIANS 150 YEARS AGO!
  The modern-day Israeli land-grabbers even use the same term to
describe themselves that the racists who stole the Indians' lands did:
"settlers"!
  To their credit, at least most Americans nowadays would, IMO, agree
that it was WRONG to kick the Native Americans off their lands.
  If the members of ANY group in our society could arguably be
entitled to special government policies and benefits, in fact, it'd be
the Native American Indians.
  And yup, I *still* consider myself to be basically a "right-wing
libertarian." 
   But, ultimately, the issue at hand is Israel, and its theft of
Palestinian lands. 
  To those who, understandably, want to divert a discussion of
Israel's land theft to a discussion of the Native Americans' loss of
their land, I say. "See the subject header of this thread. Then -- if
it's American land history you wanna talk about -- start a *different*
thread."




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct  5 10:27:40 PDT 1996
Article: 95819 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security - (to joebuck)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 10:40:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Dan  wrote:
[snip]

If you knew many gays and lesbians (or if you knew which of
>your friends were gay, but don't let you know), you'd judge them on
>their personal character rather than lumping them together and saying
>you hate them all.  

  Who said anything about "hating" gays? 
  Really, you're *way* more "politically correct" than you even
realize! :-(

>Yeah, Walt was probably a right wing homophobe -

  That's news to me!

>Walt isn't posting homophobic crap on this newsgroup - you are.

  No way. 
  What I *did* post was that Disney is harrassing families which
frequent it's theme park -- accusing parents of "shoplifting" and then
outrageously asking them for $500 on-the-spot in "civil damages"
(never mind that the original "shoplifting" charge itself was entirely
baseless!)
  At the same time, the company announces that it's extending medical
and other benefits to the "spouses" of its homosexual employees.

>Now will you please let us know why you cross-posted this thread to all
>the other non-disney newsgroups?!?

  I think people in other newsgroups should know this information --
all based, as it is, on news reports.
  Really, you owe it to yourself to get hold of the news articles
which describe in detail the facts of the case.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct  5 10:27:41 PDT 1996
Article: 95820 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: THIS THREAD IS DEAD - DAN'S RIGHT & I'M SORRY
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 10:46:23 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Shaun and Karen Buhler  wrote:

[snip]

>That removes my two biggest temptations--to defend people wrongfully and
>vicously attacked for expressing their opinions civilly and to speak out
>against prejudice.

  Wanna talk about "people wrongfully and viciously attacked"? TRY THE
NUMEROUS PARENTS WHO HAVE BEEN ACCOSTED BY DISNEY SECURITY IN RECENT
MONTHS AND OUTRAGEOUSLY AND SPURIOUSLY CHARGED WITH SHOPLIFTING.
 
>I promise--no more responding to joebuck.  I'm sorry I posted a reply to
>him this a.m.

>--Karen

  Look, you can bury your head in the sand all you want. That's
neither mature nor productive, IMO.
  Are you so emotionally-attached to all things "Disney" that you and
the other Disney lackeys cannot even acknowledge it when the company
does something wrong?
  Sad, really.





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct  5 10:27:41 PDT 1996
Article: 95821 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: UNBELIEVABLE SLANDER! [was: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security]
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 09:39:20 GMT
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References: <1996Sep28.011216.29368@lafn.org> <52jjrd$klg@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <52jr0m$q16@castle.nando.net> <52kog7$jev@library.airnews.net> <52kr51$d5e@castle.nando.net> <324EC16B.3120@earthlink.net> <52q5f2$c2o@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <3250B1FC.68E6@wavenet.com> <52smj6$cnq@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <3253452F.4BA2@earthlink.net>
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  I don't think I've EVER come across such brazen BS in all my time on
the Internet -- and that's saying a LOT!
  I truly hope the woman who "dwbart@earthlink.net is referring to
sues the hell out of this creep for SLANDER.

 Bart  wrote:

>After several letters deriding people for not reading the arcticle, and
>still not posting the arcticle dispite several requests , I decided to
>call you on it.
>Seems like you have been lying the whole time about a major fact in the
>story,
>The lady wasn't arrested because her 2 year old had a stuffed animal 2
>steps outside the door.
> She was arrested because the stroller was FILLED
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>with unpaid merchandise. And not only from the one store.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  
   Where in the world you got this TOTAL, 100% FALSEHOOD, I have no
idea.
  Maybe you thought I wouldn't see it -- well, as you can see, you
*thought* wrong. :-) 
  Your brazen lying about a basic fact of the case that was described
in The Orange County Register newspaper for anyone to read is one of
the most disgusting things I've seen online.
  You should be ASHAMED of yourself. 
  Are you so desperate, "dwbart@earthlink.net" (btw, isn't that the
ISP owned by The Church of Scientology?) that you have to MAKE UP
BRAZENLY FALSE STATEMENTS in order to defend Disney's
thoroughly-disgusting "security" practices -- the same practices which
have recently garnered public rebukes by judges, police and NUMEROUS
park patrons?
  The fact is, the newspaper article actually pointed out that THE
WOMAN WAS PUSHING A STROLLER FILLED WITH DISNEY
MERCHANDISE WHICH SHE HAD JUST BOUGHT!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 Truly this creep "Bart" owes the woman who was accused of shoplifting
when her 2-year-old walked out of a Disneyland store holding a stuffed
animal A PUBLIC APOLOGY for spewing such garbage.
  He/she ALSO owes the readers of the newsgroups where this thread has
appeared an apology for polluting it with such crap. 
 In fact, I will today (Saturday) be contacting her attorney and
informing him of the OUTRAGEOUS statement "Bart" made about his client
above.
  Now, you pitiful little troll, crawl back under the rock from which
you recently ventured.
   
 >Now, you little troll, crawl back under your rock.
>Or are you going to accuse me of being a company shill? That seems to be
>your way of denying credibility of anyone who disagrees with you.
>A personal question, why are you so bitter about Disneyland, and all of
>its employees? Were you arrested, once? Perhaps you are an ex-employee?
>But, no matter what the reason, you are obviously a bitter, angry soul,
>who's hatred is apparent.

>This thread, and your credibility, is dead.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct  5 10:27:42 PDT 1996
Article: 95822 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security  (don't respond to this thread)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 10:49:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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gjw  wrote:

>Just a reminder - let this thread die.

  Oh, you mean the thread which deals with Disneyland security's
outrageous practice of falsely-accusing parents of shoplifting -- as
described in detail in numerous recent Orange County Register
newspapers?
  BTW, who remembers what the names were of the judge, the policemen
and the falsely-accused park-goers who all condemned Disney's
practices inthe articles?



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct  5 10:27:43 PDT 1996
Article: 95826 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 10:31:47 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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References: <1996Sep28.011216.29368@lafn.org> <52jjrd$klg@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <530r6i$6of@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>
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lness@indiana.edu (Lester John Ness) wrote:

>	This is exactly the sort of nonsense that made Americans
>traditionally despise Big Business!

>-- 
>Lester Ness	lness@indiana.edu

  Finally, a voice of reason and common sense! 
  All the Disney lackey's in these newsgroups must be sweating in
their Mickey Mouse outfits! :-0 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct  5 10:27:44 PDT 1996
Article: 95827 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 11:02:47 GMT
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  Below I have quoted what is one of the most despicable things I've
ever seen on the Internet -- and that's saying a lot!
  The FACT of the matter is that the woman "dwbart@earthlink.net"
[BTW, "earthlink": Isn't that the Net provider owned by The Church of
Scientology?] refers to was pushing a baby stroller LOADED WITH DISNEY
MERCHANDISE SHE'D PAID FOR.
  In fact, NO suggestion was ever made by the park's security --
Gestapo? --  that the stroller contained ANY shopifted merchandise.
Rather, Disney's security said that she was guilty of "shoplifting"
when her 2-year-old walked out of a store holding a stuffed animal.
  I am contacting the woman's attorney today to inform him of "bart"'s
statement, and I sincerely hople the woman decides to sue his ass for
slander.
  "Bart"'s credibility is NIL.

Bart  wrote:

>Joebuck,
>After several letters deriding people for not reading the arcticle, and
>still not posting the arcticle dispite several requests , I decided to
>call you on it.
>Seems like you have been lying the whole time about a major fact in the
>story,
>The lady wasn't arrested because her 2 year old had a stuffed animal 2
>steps outside the door.
> She was arrested because the stroller was FILLED
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>with unpaid merchandise. And not only from the one store.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 08:48:51 PDT 1996
Article: 72114 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Even aluminum foil's now kosher nowadays! [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month 4)]
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 14:52:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 9
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  After reading the allegation [in"Beth Dailey's" (Dave Braun's?)
recently-posted expose of the kosher-certification racket] that
nowadays even aluminum foil receives expensive koher certification by
rabbis, I checked the generic foil in my cupboard.
  This allegation I had found hard to believe. 
  But I checked anyway.
  It *IS* kosher!
  I never knew aluminum foil contained pork! :-)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:13:52 PDT 1996
Article: 96140 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.jewish,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origin,alt.atheism,alt.politics.usa.congress,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.g-gordan-liddy,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.ronald-reagan,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democratic.d,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.election,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.syria,soc.culture.germany,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.libertarianism
Subject: Re: Total U.S. Aid To Egypt
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 13:41:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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gary12@imb.net (Ford) wrote:
[snip]

> However the fact
>remains, for economic reasons (oil) we need a strong military ally in
>the middle east and Israel provides this function very nicely.

  Of course, your clever evasion of what's most important leaves the
*real* issue unaddressed: namely, that "we" wouldn't "need" what you
call "a strong military ally in the middle [sic] east [sic]" -- such
as Israel is laughably claimed by its lobby in the US to be -- if *we*
did not actually subsidize (to the tune of billion$ annually) "our
ally" Israel's outrageous genocide and  land theft against the
indiginous Palestinian people.
  Moreover, how HELPFUL "our strong ally" Israel was during Operation
Desert Storm! (not!) 
  As Pat Buchanan so admirably predicted before the war was over,
Israel DID, in fact, demand even *more* US taxpayer money at the war's
conclusion. Why? For "allowing" the US to fight in its place, silly!
  What a racket.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:13:53 PDT 1996
Article: 96142 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: UNBELIEVABLE SLANDER! [was: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security]
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 13:54:27 GMT
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Bart  wrote:

[snip]

>Hmm, why was she accused of shoplifting, when her 2 year old took the
>stuffed animal? 

  Cheesh, *THAT* is the main point of the original newspaper article!
  Are you SO in denial about Disney security that this condition is
hampering your reading comprehension skill?
  Again: THE WOMAN WAS ACCUSED OF SHOPLIFTING BECAUSE HER 2-YEAR-OLD
WALKED OUT OF A PARK TOY STORE HOLDING A STUFFED ANIMAL.
  If you cannot understand that, well . . . 

>Now, once again, to the people who are still reading this thread, I call
>on you to use COMMON SENSE. A 2 year old, walking out of the store with
>a stuffed animal, and being followed by his mom, is swarmed on by Disney
>security, and taken into custody for hours.

  I dunno if a "swarm" of Disney security personnel accosted the poor
woman, but the newspaper article DID say that she was "hauled off to
the Disney jail behind Tomorrowland.". Those are either the exact --
or close to the exact -- words the newspaper article used.  





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:13:54 PDT 1996
Article: 96152 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: Total U.S. Aid To Israel, 1948-1996
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 14:43:38 GMT
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  Look, as far as I'm concerned, as long as these Jews have done
nothing illegal to obtain their positions, then they have every right
to hold them.
  HOWEVER: just as I would want to know it if ANY OTHER
religious/racial group -- though it represented just 1% of the general
population -- was so overwhelmingly "overrepresented" in the top
positions of my government, so, too, do I want to have the below
information regarding Jewish representation in my government.
  What I find rather disturbing, however, is that such information --
while freely discussed (indeed, BOASTED about) in the Israel media --
is rather "tabboo" in the American media.
  I'm reminded of the former columnist on William F. Buckley's
mainstream-conservative magazine "National Review," Joe Sobran, who
recently wrote a fascinating column entitled "In Our Time." [It's been
posted online numerous times; perhaps someone can do so again?]
   In this column, Mr. Sobran quoted at length a boastful Israeli
author's statement to the effect, "now, in our time, that the American
government and media are in our hands."
  Unfortunately, while such talk is quite common in Israel, one is
susceptible to be smeared as an "antisemite" if one engages in it in
the US itself.
  Which is unfortunate.

G.B.@ibm.net wrote:

>>> In <32559AF4.5B39@ix.netcom.com> abu-ali@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>> >
>>> >Total U.S. Aid To Israel, 1948-1996
>>> >
>>> >Economic Support Funds (ESF)
>>> >       Loan     $1,517,000,000
>>> >       Grants   $23,000,000,000
>>> >       Other

>This article appeared in the Tel Aviv Hebrew-language daily Ma'ariv on
>Sept. 2, 1994, by Avinoam Bar-Yosef. Translation by Dr. Israel Shahak

>Several weeks ago the rabbi of the "Adath Yisrael" synagogue in Cleveland
>Park, Washington, DC, dedicated his Sabbath sermon to the Jewish cultural
>and political center now being formed in America. "For the first time in
>American history," the rabbi said, "we no longer feel that we live in the
>diaspora. The U.S. has no longer a government of Goyim [Gentiles], but an
>administration in which the Jews are full partners in the decision making
>at all levels. Perhaps the aspects of the Jewish religious law connected
>with the term 'government of goyim' should be re-examined, since it is an
>outdated term in the U.S."
>Indeed, as far as the Jews are concerned, President Bill Clinton has
>contributed toward a real change in administration outlook, having
>concluded a series of changes which enhance Jewish power, a process that
>began under President Reagan and his secretary of state, George Shultz.
>True, the Jewish political influence was also evident in America in
>previous decades. We have already seen a Jewish secretary of state, Henry
>Kissinger, enjoying the full confidence of President Richard Nixon. There
>were Jewish Cabinet members also under Carter. However, they were
>exceptions proving the rule. Especially, pious Jews were seldom appointed
>to participate in political work concerning the Middle East.
>The picture now has totally changed, and not only about the Middle East.
>For example, every morning at about 6 o'clock, several staff cars travel
>from the CIA center to the White House with senior officers of the American
>intelligence community, who are about to present to the president and to
>the four top staffers a PDB -Presedent's Daily Briefing - the term for the
>most exclusive report in Washington.
>The document, consisting of 5-7 pages, is often accompanied by top secret
>satellite photographs transferred by the Pentagon. It is composed in the
>course of the night by the best American intelligence experts, who analyze
>the telegrams and reports arriving from the CIA's worldwide network of
>agents. It contains the most sensitive information regarding developments
>around the world.
>Its uniqueness, compared to all other American intelligence documents, lies
>in the fact that it almost always indicates the source of the information,
>whether it is a document stolen by a spy, or an agent or "mole"
>infiltrating a foreign government, or whether the source is tapped by means
>of satellite. If Clinton is in Wahington, he holds a short discussion on
>the contents of the document with the five other addressees: Vice President
>Al Gore, National Security Adviser Anthony Lake, White House Chief of Staff
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Leon Panetta, [and yes, he IS Jewish - JB]  Deputy National Security Adviser 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Samuel ("Sandy") Berger, and
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>National Security Adviser to the Vice President 
>Leon Perth. 
 ^^^^^^^^^

>Two of the

>addressees, Berger and Perth, are warm Jews. They have reached posts
that
>are extremely sensitive for U.S. policy. They are by no means exceptions.
>In the National Security Council, 7 out of 11 top staffers 
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are Jews.
^^^^^^^                                                     
>Clinton has especially placed them in the most sensitive junctions in the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>U.S. security and foreign policy administrations. Sandy Berger is the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>deputy chairman of the council; Martin Indyk, [former citizen of Israel, recently naturalized 
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^
>as a  US citizen -- JB] the intended ambassador to
>Israel, is a senior director in charge of the Middle East and South Asia;
>Dan Schifter, the senior director and adviser to the president, is in
 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>charge of Western Europe; Don Steinberg, the senior director and adviser to
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the president, is in charge of Africa; Richard 
                                                          ^^^^^^
>Feinberg, the senior
 ^^^^^^^^                                                       
>director and adviser to the president, in charge of Latin America; 
>Stanley Ross, the senior director and adviser to the president, is in charge of
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Asia.
>The situation is not much different in the president's office, which is
>full of warm Jews: the new White House counsel,
> Abner Mikva; the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
>president's schedule and programs manager,
> Ricki Seidman; deputy 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>chief ofstaff, Phil Leida; economic adviser, Robert
                      ^^^^^^^^                               ^^^^^^
>Rubin; [the multimillionaire Sec of the Treasury who successfully lobbied 
  ^^^^^
>for the $50 billion Mexican peso bailout which so helped his 1980s 
>Wall Street firm, Goldman Sachs -- JB] media 
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>director, David Heiser; staff director, Alice Rubin; Ely Segal, in charge of volunteers;
               ^^^^^^^^^^                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Ira Magaziner, in charge of the health program. Two Cabinet members, Labor
 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Secretary Robert Reich and Mickey Kantor, in charge of international trade
                  ^^^^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^^^^^
>aggreements, are Jewish.
>They are joined by a long list of senior Jewish officials in the State
>Department, headed by the chief of the Middle East peace team,
>Dennis Ross,
  ^^^^^^^^^^
>and followed by many deputy secretaries and even more senior secretaries'
>chiefs of staff.
>One of the most interesting Jews from the Israeli point of view, who has
>rarely been exposed to view until now, is 
>Rahm Emmanuel, Clinton's senior
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>adviser in charge of coordinating special projects in the White
House. His
>office is located next to the famous Oval Office.
>Rahm won extra points from his boss last week, when he succeeded in passing
>a law for combatting crime. He has become an expert at communicating with
>Congress and has already had many successes, the most prominent of which
>was the ratification of NAFTA.
>Now he is immersed in the passing of the health bill. Last Thursday his
>office was in shambles and he strode around it like a typical Sabra,
>simultaneously conducting a lively conversation with me, studying the
>protocols of the debate being held at the time by the Senate, and watching
>the report of Wolf Blitzer (also a Jew) [and former 
                      ^^^^^^^^^
>Jerusalem Post staffer! -- JB] on CNN and being updated by his
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>secretary and three aides on the positions of the senators regarding the
>votes. . . . .
>The other synagogue competing for the young generation of wealthy Jews is
>located in Georgetown. It is a fully Orthodox synagogue, but its prayers
>are conducted in the Israeli style favored by "Gush Emunim." The Israeli
>flag is proudly displayed above the Sacred Ark alongside the American flag.
>On each Sabbath the prayers include the benediction for the Israeli Jewish
>soldiers and the prayer for the welfare of the Israeli government and its
>officials. Many Jewish administration officials pray there. They not only
>don't try to conceal their religious affiliation, 
>but go to a great length
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>to demonsrate their Judaism since it may help their careers greatly.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>The enormous Jewish influence in Washington is not limited to the
>government. In the Washington media a very significant part of the most
>important personages and of the presenters of the most popular programs on
>the TV are warm Jews.
>A significant portion of senior media correspondents, newspaper editors and
>analysts are Jewish and many of them are warm Jews too. Many of them are
>influenced in Israel's favor by attending suitable synagogues. AP's
>political reporter, Barry Schweid, and The Washington Post's education
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>reporter, Amy Schwartz, regularly participate in a prayer session which is
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>considered to be close to Israel at the Cleveland Park synagogue. Also
>there the Israeli flag is posted proudly above the Sacred Ark.
>Let us not forget in this context the Jewish predominance in the
>Washingtonian academic institutions. At the National Institutes of Health
>the percentage of Jewish researchers is very much higher than their
>relative percentage in the population. In the fields of security and
>science, in the film industry, in art and in literature, the Jewish
>influence can only be described as immense, with a corresponding
>enhancement of Jewish power.






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:13:55 PDT 1996
Article: 96155 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.criticism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.activism,alt.politics.perot,alt.conspiracy,alt.disney,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.california
Subject: Re: Read about Disney's disturbing JAIL practice yet?
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 14:59:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  Good to read the civil-liberties-promoting words of the below-quoted
correspondent.

rahubby@sonic.net (Robert Hubby) wrote:

>JMerc (JMerc04@sprynet.com) wrote:
>: Charles wrote:
>: > 
>: > In the article park patrons, municipal police and judges commented
>: > negatively on the Disney practice which, IMO, may involve both fraud
>: > (the accused typically believe the $500 they're paying -- asked for in
>: > front of a cop, no less -- "settles" the case) and extortion (people
>: > may think they won't be freed unless they pay $500 in "civil damages.")

>The lady with the "Gap" Sweatshirt (See another post) has very good grounds
>to sue for MILLIONS! Tell me that the measly $500 will make up THAT loss.

>Some things to note, and advice for tourists.

>1) Since Disneyland is NOT a city unto itself, it DOES NOT HAVE A POLICE
>   DEPARTMENT! Unless the uniform the person detaining you has the words
>   "Anaheim Police Department" or "Orange County Sherrif" displayed on a
>   shoulder patch, he or she is NOT a "cop", just a security guard with an
>   official-looking uniform, or POSSIBLY a policeman who is outside his or
>   her jurisdiction.
>2) If you are NOT read your MIRANDA RIGHTS, you are NOT under arrest, unless
>   the person doing the arresting is a private citizen and can't be reason-
>   ably expected to have memorized Miranda (Security Guards are included in
>   this catagory.)
>3) You have the legal right to demand that the REAL police be called in
>   IMMEDIATELY. The right to perform a citizen's arrest only lasts until
>   reasonable time has passed for calling the Police and turning the accused
>   over to them IMMEDIATELY UPON THEIR ARRIVAL. You cannot be held
>   indefinitely (And 5 hours is FAR too long) legally. Wrongful
>   Imprisonment, or even KIDNAPPING, laws could be applied here!
>4) Finally, if you ask someone in uniform "Are you a Policeman or Deputy?"
>   they are LEGALLY BOUND to tell you the truth. If they are NOT a policeman,
>   and they claim to be, or try to dodge the question to make you THINK that
>   they are without actually claiming to be, they are IMPERSONATING A POLICE
>   OFFICER (A major crime, even in Orange County.) This is one case where a
>   lie by ommission counts. You cannot legally just tell someone to shut up
>   if they ask you that question, and if you ARE a police officer, you MUST
>   provide proof if asked. In addition, all security officers in California
>   MUST maintain and carry a current Security Officer Registration
>   (AKA "Guard Card") when on duty.

>Just because DisneyLand is a major tourist attraction and has a large
>security force does NOT give them the right to act like stormtroopers and
>hold people for hours at a time in some backroom "Jail." Know your rights,
>and you should be able to avoid any problems. [snip]




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:13:55 PDT 1996
Article: 96160 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 9 Num. 38
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 15:11:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  What's truly fascinating is that Bill Kurtis, host/producer of
"Investigative Reports" (a program I typically thoroughly enjoy
watching, btw) is the *same* guy who's aired so much about the JFK
"conspiracy" in recent years.
   IOW, when it comes to JFK -- unlike when it comes to Vince Foster's
murder --  it's the *respectable* thing to do to shout "CONSPIRACY!"
  Somewhat hypocritical, IMO.
  Interestingly, Kurtis's approach always seems to finger the Mafia as
the real culprits in JFK's assassination..
  Indeed, ever seen the long series hosted by Kurtis which focuses on
notorious Mafia dons? 
  Really, he's either fixated on the Mob or else he's got a hidden
agenda.

bigred@shout.net (Brian Redman) wrote:
[snip]
>Congrats to Bill Kurtis  on  a  slick  P.R. job meant to persuade
>amateurs that Foster became suicidal due  to  Washington  stress.
[snip]



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:39:38 PDT 1996
Article: 79894 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.jewish,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origin,alt.atheism,alt.politics.usa.congress,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.g-gordan-liddy,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.ronald-reagan,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democratic.d,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.election,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.syria,soc.culture.germany,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.libertarianism
Subject: Re: Total U.S. Aid To Egypt
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gary12@imb.net (Ford) wrote:
[snip]

> However the fact
>remains, for economic reasons (oil) we need a strong military ally in
>the middle east and Israel provides this function very nicely.

  Of course, your clever evasion of what's most important leaves the
*real* issue unaddressed: namely, that "we" wouldn't "need" what you
call "a strong military ally in the middle [sic] east [sic]" -- such
as Israel is laughably claimed by its lobby in the US to be -- if *we*
did not actually subsidize (to the tune of billion$ annually) "our
ally" Israel's outrageous genocide and  land theft against the
indiginous Palestinian people.
  Moreover, how HELPFUL "our strong ally" Israel was during Operation
Desert Storm! (not!) 
  As Pat Buchanan so admirably predicted before the war was over,
Israel DID, in fact, demand even *more* US taxpayer money at the war's
conclusion. Why? For "allowing" the US to fight in its place, silly!
  What a racket.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:39:40 PDT 1996
Article: 79907 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.jewish,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origin,alt.atheism,alt.politics.usa.congress,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.g-gordan-liddy,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.ronald-reagan,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democratic.d,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.election,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.syria,soc.culture.germany,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Total U.S. Aid To Israel, 1948-1996
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 14:43:38 GMT
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  Look, as far as I'm concerned, as long as these Jews have done
nothing illegal to obtain their positions, then they have every right
to hold them.
  HOWEVER: just as I would want to know it if ANY OTHER
religious/racial group -- though it represented just 1% of the general
population -- was so overwhelmingly "overrepresented" in the top
positions of my government, so, too, do I want to have the below
information regarding Jewish representation in my government.
  What I find rather disturbing, however, is that such information --
while freely discussed (indeed, BOASTED about) in the Israel media --
is rather "tabboo" in the American media.
  I'm reminded of the former columnist on William F. Buckley's
mainstream-conservative magazine "National Review," Joe Sobran, who
recently wrote a fascinating column entitled "In Our Time." [It's been
posted online numerous times; perhaps someone can do so again?]
   In this column, Mr. Sobran quoted at length a boastful Israeli
author's statement to the effect, "now, in our time, that the American
government and media are in our hands."
  Unfortunately, while such talk is quite common in Israel, one is
susceptible to be smeared as an "antisemite" if one engages in it in
the US itself.
  Which is unfortunate.

G.B.@ibm.net wrote:

>>> In <32559AF4.5B39@ix.netcom.com> abu-ali@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>> >
>>> >Total U.S. Aid To Israel, 1948-1996
>>> >
>>> >Economic Support Funds (ESF)
>>> >       Loan     $1,517,000,000
>>> >       Grants   $23,000,000,000
>>> >       Other

>This article appeared in the Tel Aviv Hebrew-language daily Ma'ariv on
>Sept. 2, 1994, by Avinoam Bar-Yosef. Translation by Dr. Israel Shahak

>Several weeks ago the rabbi of the "Adath Yisrael" synagogue in Cleveland
>Park, Washington, DC, dedicated his Sabbath sermon to the Jewish cultural
>and political center now being formed in America. "For the first time in
>American history," the rabbi said, "we no longer feel that we live in the
>diaspora. The U.S. has no longer a government of Goyim [Gentiles], but an
>administration in which the Jews are full partners in the decision making
>at all levels. Perhaps the aspects of the Jewish religious law connected
>with the term 'government of goyim' should be re-examined, since it is an
>outdated term in the U.S."
>Indeed, as far as the Jews are concerned, President Bill Clinton has
>contributed toward a real change in administration outlook, having
>concluded a series of changes which enhance Jewish power, a process that
>began under President Reagan and his secretary of state, George Shultz.
>True, the Jewish political influence was also evident in America in
>previous decades. We have already seen a Jewish secretary of state, Henry
>Kissinger, enjoying the full confidence of President Richard Nixon. There
>were Jewish Cabinet members also under Carter. However, they were
>exceptions proving the rule. Especially, pious Jews were seldom appointed
>to participate in political work concerning the Middle East.
>The picture now has totally changed, and not only about the Middle East.
>For example, every morning at about 6 o'clock, several staff cars travel
>from the CIA center to the White House with senior officers of the American
>intelligence community, who are about to present to the president and to
>the four top staffers a PDB -Presedent's Daily Briefing - the term for the
>most exclusive report in Washington.
>The document, consisting of 5-7 pages, is often accompanied by top secret
>satellite photographs transferred by the Pentagon. It is composed in the
>course of the night by the best American intelligence experts, who analyze
>the telegrams and reports arriving from the CIA's worldwide network of
>agents. It contains the most sensitive information regarding developments
>around the world.
>Its uniqueness, compared to all other American intelligence documents, lies
>in the fact that it almost always indicates the source of the information,
>whether it is a document stolen by a spy, or an agent or "mole"
>infiltrating a foreign government, or whether the source is tapped by means
>of satellite. If Clinton is in Wahington, he holds a short discussion on
>the contents of the document with the five other addressees: Vice President
>Al Gore, National Security Adviser Anthony Lake, White House Chief of Staff
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Leon Panetta, [and yes, he IS Jewish - JB]  Deputy National Security Adviser 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Samuel ("Sandy") Berger, and
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>National Security Adviser to the Vice President 
>Leon Perth. 
 ^^^^^^^^^

>Two of the

>addressees, Berger and Perth, are warm Jews. They have reached posts
that
>are extremely sensitive for U.S. policy. They are by no means exceptions.
>In the National Security Council, 7 out of 11 top staffers 
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are Jews.
^^^^^^^                                                     
>Clinton has especially placed them in the most sensitive junctions in the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>U.S. security and foreign policy administrations. Sandy Berger is the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>deputy chairman of the council; Martin Indyk, [former citizen of Israel, recently naturalized 
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^
>as a  US citizen -- JB] the intended ambassador to
>Israel, is a senior director in charge of the Middle East and South Asia;
>Dan Schifter, the senior director and adviser to the president, is in
 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>charge of Western Europe; Don Steinberg, the senior director and adviser to
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the president, is in charge of Africa; Richard 
                                                          ^^^^^^
>Feinberg, the senior
 ^^^^^^^^                                                       
>director and adviser to the president, in charge of Latin America; 
>Stanley Ross, the senior director and adviser to the president, is in charge of
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Asia.
>The situation is not much different in the president's office, which is
>full of warm Jews: the new White House counsel,
> Abner Mikva; the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
>president's schedule and programs manager,
> Ricki Seidman; deputy 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>chief ofstaff, Phil Leida; economic adviser, Robert
                      ^^^^^^^^                               ^^^^^^
>Rubin; [the multimillionaire Sec of the Treasury who successfully lobbied 
  ^^^^^
>for the $50 billion Mexican peso bailout which so helped his 1980s 
>Wall Street firm, Goldman Sachs -- JB] media 
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>director, David Heiser; staff director, Alice Rubin; Ely Segal, in charge of volunteers;
               ^^^^^^^^^^                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Ira Magaziner, in charge of the health program. Two Cabinet members, Labor
 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Secretary Robert Reich and Mickey Kantor, in charge of international trade
                  ^^^^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^^^^^
>aggreements, are Jewish.
>They are joined by a long list of senior Jewish officials in the State
>Department, headed by the chief of the Middle East peace team,
>Dennis Ross,
  ^^^^^^^^^^
>and followed by many deputy secretaries and even more senior secretaries'
>chiefs of staff.
>One of the most interesting Jews from the Israeli point of view, who has
>rarely been exposed to view until now, is 
>Rahm Emmanuel, Clinton's senior
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>adviser in charge of coordinating special projects in the White
House. His
>office is located next to the famous Oval Office.
>Rahm won extra points from his boss last week, when he succeeded in passing
>a law for combatting crime. He has become an expert at communicating with
>Congress and has already had many successes, the most prominent of which
>was the ratification of NAFTA.
>Now he is immersed in the passing of the health bill. Last Thursday his
>office was in shambles and he strode around it like a typical Sabra,
>simultaneously conducting a lively conversation with me, studying the
>protocols of the debate being held at the time by the Senate, and watching
>the report of Wolf Blitzer (also a Jew) [and former 
                      ^^^^^^^^^
>Jerusalem Post staffer! -- JB] on CNN and being updated by his
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>secretary and three aides on the positions of the senators regarding the
>votes. . . . .
>The other synagogue competing for the young generation of wealthy Jews is
>located in Georgetown. It is a fully Orthodox synagogue, but its prayers
>are conducted in the Israeli style favored by "Gush Emunim." The Israeli
>flag is proudly displayed above the Sacred Ark alongside the American flag.
>On each Sabbath the prayers include the benediction for the Israeli Jewish
>soldiers and the prayer for the welfare of the Israeli government and its
>officials. Many Jewish administration officials pray there. They not only
>don't try to conceal their religious affiliation, 
>but go to a great length
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>to demonsrate their Judaism since it may help their careers greatly.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>The enormous Jewish influence in Washington is not limited to the
>government. In the Washington media a very significant part of the most
>important personages and of the presenters of the most popular programs on
>the TV are warm Jews.
>A significant portion of senior media correspondents, newspaper editors and
>analysts are Jewish and many of them are warm Jews too. Many of them are
>influenced in Israel's favor by attending suitable synagogues. AP's
>political reporter, Barry Schweid, and The Washington Post's education
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>reporter, Amy Schwartz, regularly participate in a prayer session which is
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>considered to be close to Israel at the Cleveland Park synagogue. Also
>there the Israeli flag is posted proudly above the Sacred Ark.
>Let us not forget in this context the Jewish predominance in the
>Washingtonian academic institutions. At the National Institutes of Health
>the percentage of Jewish researchers is very much higher than their
>relative percentage in the population. In the fields of security and
>science, in the film industry, in art and in literature, the Jewish
>influence can only be described as immense, with a corresponding
>enhancement of Jewish power.






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:47:15 PDT 1996
Article: 476694 of talk.politics.misc
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.jewish,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origin,alt.atheism,alt.politics.usa.congress,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.g-gordan-liddy,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.ronald-reagan,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democratic.d,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.election,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.syria,soc.culture.germany,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.libertarianism
Subject: Re: Total U.S. Aid To Egypt
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 13:41:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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gary12@imb.net (Ford) wrote:
[snip]

> However the fact
>remains, for economic reasons (oil) we need a strong military ally in
>the middle east and Israel provides this function very nicely.

  Of course, your clever evasion of what's most important leaves the
*real* issue unaddressed: namely, that "we" wouldn't "need" what you
call "a strong military ally in the middle [sic] east [sic]" -- such
as Israel is laughably claimed by its lobby in the US to be -- if *we*
did not actually subsidize (to the tune of billion$ annually) "our
ally" Israel's outrageous genocide and  land theft against the
indiginous Palestinian people.
  Moreover, how HELPFUL "our strong ally" Israel was during Operation
Desert Storm! (not!) 
  As Pat Buchanan so admirably predicted before the war was over,
Israel DID, in fact, demand even *more* US taxpayer money at the war's
conclusion. Why? For "allowing" the US to fight in its place, silly!
  What a racket.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 09:47:17 PDT 1996
Article: 476718 of talk.politics.misc
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.jewish,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origin,alt.atheism,alt.politics.usa.congress,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.g-gordan-liddy,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.ronald-reagan,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democratic.d,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.election,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.syria,soc.culture.germany,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Total U.S. Aid To Israel, 1948-1996
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 14:43:38 GMT
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  Look, as far as I'm concerned, as long as these Jews have done
nothing illegal to obtain their positions, then they have every right
to hold them.
  HOWEVER: just as I would want to know it if ANY OTHER
religious/racial group -- though it represented just 1% of the general
population -- was so overwhelmingly "overrepresented" in the top
positions of my government, so, too, do I want to have the below
information regarding Jewish representation in my government.
  What I find rather disturbing, however, is that such information --
while freely discussed (indeed, BOASTED about) in the Israel media --
is rather "tabboo" in the American media.
  I'm reminded of the former columnist on William F. Buckley's
mainstream-conservative magazine "National Review," Joe Sobran, who
recently wrote a fascinating column entitled "In Our Time." [It's been
posted online numerous times; perhaps someone can do so again?]
   In this column, Mr. Sobran quoted at length a boastful Israeli
author's statement to the effect, "now, in our time, that the American
government and media are in our hands."
  Unfortunately, while such talk is quite common in Israel, one is
susceptible to be smeared as an "antisemite" if one engages in it in
the US itself.
  Which is unfortunate.

G.B.@ibm.net wrote:

>>> In <32559AF4.5B39@ix.netcom.com> abu-ali@ix.netcom.com writes:
>>> >
>>> >Total U.S. Aid To Israel, 1948-1996
>>> >
>>> >Economic Support Funds (ESF)
>>> >       Loan     $1,517,000,000
>>> >       Grants   $23,000,000,000
>>> >       Other

>This article appeared in the Tel Aviv Hebrew-language daily Ma'ariv on
>Sept. 2, 1994, by Avinoam Bar-Yosef. Translation by Dr. Israel Shahak

>Several weeks ago the rabbi of the "Adath Yisrael" synagogue in Cleveland
>Park, Washington, DC, dedicated his Sabbath sermon to the Jewish cultural
>and political center now being formed in America. "For the first time in
>American history," the rabbi said, "we no longer feel that we live in the
>diaspora. The U.S. has no longer a government of Goyim [Gentiles], but an
>administration in which the Jews are full partners in the decision making
>at all levels. Perhaps the aspects of the Jewish religious law connected
>with the term 'government of goyim' should be re-examined, since it is an
>outdated term in the U.S."
>Indeed, as far as the Jews are concerned, President Bill Clinton has
>contributed toward a real change in administration outlook, having
>concluded a series of changes which enhance Jewish power, a process that
>began under President Reagan and his secretary of state, George Shultz.
>True, the Jewish political influence was also evident in America in
>previous decades. We have already seen a Jewish secretary of state, Henry
>Kissinger, enjoying the full confidence of President Richard Nixon. There
>were Jewish Cabinet members also under Carter. However, they were
>exceptions proving the rule. Especially, pious Jews were seldom appointed
>to participate in political work concerning the Middle East.
>The picture now has totally changed, and not only about the Middle East.
>For example, every morning at about 6 o'clock, several staff cars travel
>from the CIA center to the White House with senior officers of the American
>intelligence community, who are about to present to the president and to
>the four top staffers a PDB -Presedent's Daily Briefing - the term for the
>most exclusive report in Washington.
>The document, consisting of 5-7 pages, is often accompanied by top secret
>satellite photographs transferred by the Pentagon. It is composed in the
>course of the night by the best American intelligence experts, who analyze
>the telegrams and reports arriving from the CIA's worldwide network of
>agents. It contains the most sensitive information regarding developments
>around the world.
>Its uniqueness, compared to all other American intelligence documents, lies
>in the fact that it almost always indicates the source of the information,
>whether it is a document stolen by a spy, or an agent or "mole"
>infiltrating a foreign government, or whether the source is tapped by means
>of satellite. If Clinton is in Wahington, he holds a short discussion on
>the contents of the document with the five other addressees: Vice President
>Al Gore, National Security Adviser Anthony Lake, White House Chief of Staff
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Leon Panetta, [and yes, he IS Jewish - JB]  Deputy National Security Adviser 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Samuel ("Sandy") Berger, and
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>National Security Adviser to the Vice President 
>Leon Perth. 
 ^^^^^^^^^

>Two of the

>addressees, Berger and Perth, are warm Jews. They have reached posts
that
>are extremely sensitive for U.S. policy. They are by no means exceptions.
>In the National Security Council, 7 out of 11 top staffers 
                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>are Jews.
^^^^^^^                                                     
>Clinton has especially placed them in the most sensitive junctions in the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>U.S. security and foreign policy administrations. Sandy Berger is the
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>deputy chairman of the council; Martin Indyk, [former citizen of Israel, recently naturalized 
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^
>as a  US citizen -- JB] the intended ambassador to
>Israel, is a senior director in charge of the Middle East and South Asia;
>Dan Schifter, the senior director and adviser to the president, is in
 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>charge of Western Europe; Don Steinberg, the senior director and adviser to
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the president, is in charge of Africa; Richard 
                                                          ^^^^^^
>Feinberg, the senior
 ^^^^^^^^                                                       
>director and adviser to the president, in charge of Latin America; 
>Stanley Ross, the senior director and adviser to the president, is in charge of
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Asia.
>The situation is not much different in the president's office, which is
>full of warm Jews: the new White House counsel,
> Abner Mikva; the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
>president's schedule and programs manager,
> Ricki Seidman; deputy 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>chief ofstaff, Phil Leida; economic adviser, Robert
                      ^^^^^^^^                               ^^^^^^
>Rubin; [the multimillionaire Sec of the Treasury who successfully lobbied 
  ^^^^^
>for the $50 billion Mexican peso bailout which so helped his 1980s 
>Wall Street firm, Goldman Sachs -- JB] media 
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>director, David Heiser; staff director, Alice Rubin; Ely Segal, in charge of volunteers;
               ^^^^^^^^^^                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Ira Magaziner, in charge of the health program. Two Cabinet members, Labor
 ^^^^^^^^^^^
>Secretary Robert Reich and Mickey Kantor, in charge of international trade
                  ^^^^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^^^^^^
>aggreements, are Jewish.
>They are joined by a long list of senior Jewish officials in the State
>Department, headed by the chief of the Middle East peace team,
>Dennis Ross,
  ^^^^^^^^^^
>and followed by many deputy secretaries and even more senior secretaries'
>chiefs of staff.
>One of the most interesting Jews from the Israeli point of view, who has
>rarely been exposed to view until now, is 
>Rahm Emmanuel, Clinton's senior
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>adviser in charge of coordinating special projects in the White
House. His
>office is located next to the famous Oval Office.
>Rahm won extra points from his boss last week, when he succeeded in passing
>a law for combatting crime. He has become an expert at communicating with
>Congress and has already had many successes, the most prominent of which
>was the ratification of NAFTA.
>Now he is immersed in the passing of the health bill. Last Thursday his
>office was in shambles and he strode around it like a typical Sabra,
>simultaneously conducting a lively conversation with me, studying the
>protocols of the debate being held at the time by the Senate, and watching
>the report of Wolf Blitzer (also a Jew) [and former 
                      ^^^^^^^^^
>Jerusalem Post staffer! -- JB] on CNN and being updated by his
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>secretary and three aides on the positions of the senators regarding the
>votes. . . . .
>The other synagogue competing for the young generation of wealthy Jews is
>located in Georgetown. It is a fully Orthodox synagogue, but its prayers
>are conducted in the Israeli style favored by "Gush Emunim." The Israeli
>flag is proudly displayed above the Sacred Ark alongside the American flag.
>On each Sabbath the prayers include the benediction for the Israeli Jewish
>soldiers and the prayer for the welfare of the Israeli government and its
>officials. Many Jewish administration officials pray there. They not only
>don't try to conceal their religious affiliation, 
>but go to a great length
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>to demonsrate their Judaism since it may help their careers greatly.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>The enormous Jewish influence in Washington is not limited to the
>government. In the Washington media a very significant part of the most
>important personages and of the presenters of the most popular programs on
>the TV are warm Jews.
>A significant portion of senior media correspondents, newspaper editors and
>analysts are Jewish and many of them are warm Jews too. Many of them are
>influenced in Israel's favor by attending suitable synagogues. AP's
>political reporter, Barry Schweid, and The Washington Post's education
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>reporter, Amy Schwartz, regularly participate in a prayer session which is
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>considered to be close to Israel at the Cleveland Park synagogue. Also
>there the Israeli flag is posted proudly above the Sacred Ark.
>Let us not forget in this context the Jewish predominance in the
>Washingtonian academic institutions. At the National Institutes of Health
>the percentage of Jewish researchers is very much higher than their
>relative percentage in the population. In the fields of security and
>science, in the film industry, in art and in literature, the Jewish
>influence can only be described as immense, with a corresponding
>enhancement of Jewish power.






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 11:05:51 PDT 1996
Article: 72121 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Aluminum foil contains pork? [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month 4)]
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 15:34:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <538k1l$hqn@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>
References: <535f3o$5mj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <535rmk$82i@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <5365ro$qtb@news1.panix.com> <538hir$rr9@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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>  After reading the allegation [in"Beth Dailey's" (Dave Braun's?)
>recently-posted expose of the kosher-certification racket] that
>nowadays even aluminum foil receives expensive koher certification by
>rabbis, I checked the generic foil in my cupboard.
>  This allegation I had found hard to believe. 
>  But I checked anyway.
>  It *IS* kosher!
>  I never knew aluminum foil contained pork! :-)





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 11:30:07 PDT 1996
Article: 96175 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism
Subject: Re: HEADLINE: 'Disney security accused again' [10/4/96]
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 15:59:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>>  The accusations of abuse against parents by proudly
>>politically-correct Disney keep coming.
>>  Let's see how many sick, anti-family kooks -- the kind of people
>>who, while applauding Disney's extension of medical and other benefits
>>to the homosexual partners of its employees -- continue to defend the
>>company NOW.
>>  Obviously -- sadly -- some still will, undoubtedly.
>>  The latest charges are contained in yet another front-page article
>>in The Orange County Register newspaper which describes how the mother
>>of a chronically ill 2-year-old was recently outrageously -- and
>>falsely -- accused of shoplifting by Disneyland security.
>>  Taylor Canada, the mother of four children and the wife of a
>>construction company vice-president, says her family's evening at the
>>theme park turned into a nightmare when she was outrageously accused
>>of shoplifting last month.
>>  Echoing other parents who have spoken out in previous Register
>>articles on the continuing problem at the park, Mrs. Canada said, "I
>>was stunned. I knew I had done nothing wrong, but the (security
>>officer) told me that I was going to jail. That's when I got scared."
>>  "Before the night was over, Canada said, her sons were crying and
>>shivering in the cold, and she was held in a security office,
>>threatened with a night in jail," says the article.
>>  The reference to the boys shivering in the cold refers to the
>>mother's charge that Disneyland security wouldn't let her sons into
>>the scurity office, even though they were crying. 
>>  It is reminiscent of the recent claim of another mother, Cecile
>>Menard, who -- while ALSO falsely accused of shoplifting by Disney --
>>was not allowed by security to look for her two children who were left
>>alone, unsupervised, in the theme park.
>>  "Canada said she told officers Cashel [her son] has asthma, and
>>can't be in cold air. She said they told her to 'just be quiet. You're
>>under arrest.' "
>>  Mrs. Canada says she found her son Cashel asleep on the sidewalk
>>outside the security office, curled up inside his T-shirt, his lips
>>bluish from the cold. The other boy was crying, the mother said.
>>  "After more than two hours, Mrs. Canada said, a security guard
>>unfolded the sweatshirt he had accused her of stealing and saw The Gap
>>label across the front."
>>  " 'Oh dear God,' Canada said the guard muttered before quickly
>>leaving the room."
>>  She was then released.







From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 11:30:08 PDT 1996
Article: 96179 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.ac
Subject: Re: UNBELIEVABLE SLANDER! [was: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security]
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 16:11:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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mk0901@aol.com (MK0901) wrote:

>In article <536p98$o0u@castle.nando.net>, davechri@nando.net (davechri)
>writes:

>>:   The fact is, the newspaper article actually pointed out that THE
>>: WOMAN WAS PUSHING A STROLLER FILLED WITH DISNEY
>>: MERCHANDISE WHICH SHE HAD JUST BOUGHT!

>I still say it was a stolen stroller.
> Gus

  ROFL! :-0



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 11:30:09 PDT 1996
Article: 96180 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.censorship,alt.news-media,dc.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.journalism.newspapers,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.libertarianism
Subject: FWD/REPOST: CLINTON: Ruddy Targeted by IRS audit
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 16:20:54 GMT
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stephenh@netcom.com (stephenh) wrote:

>Chris Ruddy, who has authored a series of investigative reports
>on the Clinton presidency scandals and the death of Vince Foster,
>appeared on the Michael Reagan (radio) Show Friday evening,
>Oct. 4.

>He said that the Western Journalism Center, a non-profit organization
>that helps support journalists such as Ruddy who might otherwise
>not be able to find a job in the politically correct mainstream media,
>is being audited by the IRS.

>Reagan said it was a thinly disguised move to clamp down on
>journalism deemed unfavorable to the Clinton administration,
>and that he has nidrectly felt the pressure from threats of IRS audits
>in the talk radio venue.

>Ruddy made the prediction:

>  "Hell hath no fury like a second Clinton administration."





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 11:30:10 PDT 1996
Article: 96181 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: What is this Macarena s**t?! (was Re: Go to Prison  FAST !!...  )
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 16:11:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Heeeeeeeyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy la Macarena! :-0



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 11:30:10 PDT 1996
Article: 96182 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.elections,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy,alt.libertarianism
Subject: FWD/REPOST: Spectator: Possible Clinton Cocaine Overdose
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 16:23:37 GMT
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lwarren@callamer.com (Lynette Warren) wrote:

>London Times
>5 Oct 96

>   Cocaine question hangs over US election debate
>   FROM MARTIN FLETCHER IN WASHINGTON
>   
>   AS PRESIDENT Clinton and Bob Dole prepared for their first
>   presidential debate in Hartford, Connecticut, tomorrow night two
>   startling allegations were levelled against the President and his
>   Administration yesterday.
>   
>   Emmett Tyrrell, editor of the right-wing American Spectator magazine,
>   claimed Mr Clinton was refusing to release his medical records because
>   he was a heavy cocaine user in the early 1980s and may have been
>   treated for an overdose.
>   
>   Dennis Sculimbrene, a former FBI agent who checked the backgrounds of
>   White House employees until last April, told The Wall Street Journal,
>   equally right-wing, that "about 25 per cent of the incoming
>   Administration ... had a problem with illegal drugs. Not just casual
>   experimentation, but a pattern of usage ... not just marijuana but
>   cocaine, amphetamines, amphetamine-derived 'designer' drugs such as
>   Ecstasy, hashish, mushrooms." The drug-takers included "senior aides
>   and advisers to the President".
>   
>   The allegations were the latest in a long series of charges brought by
>   Mr Clinton's political enemies since 1992. None has ever been proved
>   or dismissed, but what intrigued Washington yesterday was whether Mr
>   Dole would find an oblique way of raising them before a live
>   television audience of perhaps 80 million tomorrow.
>   
>   Would he challenge Mr Clinton to release his medical records? Would he
>   insist the President rule out second-term pardons for convicted
>   Whitewater associates who might otherwise co-operate with the special
>   prosecutor? Would he demand publication of a suppressed FBI report
>   that allegedly excoriates Mr Clinton for lack of leadership on drug
>   abuse? "The unexpected is the secret of the battlefield," teased Scott
>   Reed, Mr Dole's campaign manager.
>   
>   Mr Dole, trailing badly with one month left before polling day, must
>   rock Mr Clinton to retain any hope of winning, but the risks of a
>   slashing attack are great. He would instantly revive the mean "hatchet
>   man" image that has dogged him since his 1976 vice-presidential debate
>   against Walter Mondale, when he snarled that Vietnam, Korea and the
>   Second World War were "Democrat wars".
>   
>   Both men have hidden themselves away with large retinues to prepare ≠
>   Mr Dole at his Florida condominium and Mr Clinton on a rural New York
>   estate.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 11:30:11 PDT 1996
Article: 96185 of alt.conspiracy
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Subject: FWD/REPOST: "You will be dead before the election."
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 16:36:45 GMT
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"John Q. Public"  wrote:

>not to be used for commercial purposes

>from the 10/4 Washington Times

>Weekly Commentary
>by R. Emmett Tyrrell, Jr.

>Washington
>             The only recent precedent available to 
>Bill Clinton for not releasing the details (raw data 
>and all) of his medical record is that set by President
>John F. Kennedy. Today we know that Kennedy was hiding 
>Addison's disease and other ailments that left him 
>in frequent pain and subject to bouts of fatigue. 
>Given the suffering that he braved, his reticence 
>was gallant. What suffering might Bill Clinton be 
>quietly braving?

>             His refusal to open his medical records 
>has provoked vigorous and occasionally intemperate 
>speculation. Some insist that the President is
>hiding cosmetic surgery. One artist who has sketched 
>his face frequently believes that he has spotted the 
>traces of a face lift. Others insist that Clinton's 
>records would reveal treatment for sexually transmitted 
>diseases. Kennedy biographer, Richard Reeves, chronicles 
>"persistent venereal disease" among JFK's secret health 
>problems. I have no knowledge of Clinton suffering 
>either condition, but investigations conducted by me 
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and two colleagues over the past few weeks suggest 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that Clinton has used drugs heavily and may have in 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the early 1980s been treated for an overdose.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Jane Parks is a middle-aged Arkansan hired in the 
>middle 1980s as resident manager at an upscale Little 
>Rock apartment complex, Vantage Point. Vantage Point 
>was owned by Sidney Weniger, a New York developer who, 
>with much money from his friend Governor Bill Clinton's 
>brain child, the Arkansas Development Finance Authority, 
>did a lucrative development business in Arkansas in the 
>1980s. This particular apartment complex consisted of 
>three buildings. Mrs. Parks' office was in the middle 
>building. It was apartment B107. The apartment had been 
>subdivided by a flimsy interim wall, on one side of
>which Mrs. Parks worked with her assistant. On the 
>other side was a temporary apartment referred to rather 
>splendidly as Vantage Point's "corporate suite."
>In the summer of 1984 Bill Clinton's half brother, 
>Roger, stayed in this room as a non-paying guest. 

>Mrs. Parks observed cocaine being brought into the 
>apartment. She also had to relay complaints to Roger 
>about noise from his parties. In a recent interview at
>Little Rock's Regas Bar and Grill, she stated, "Once 
>when I opened the door, Bill Clinton was sitting on the 
>couch. He was staring straight ahead, looking stoned." 
>She mimics the governor sitting with arms stiff, 
>looking straight ahead glassy eyed. "There were lines 
>of cocaine on the table in front of him." Mrs. Parks, 
>a dark-haired, fine-featured woman who appears 
>surprisingly fit though she has for years been 
>afflicted by multiple sclerosis, is now overcoming 
>years of apprehension. She had seen Clinton at the 
>apartment and along with her assistant had heard him 
>enthuse over the high quality cocaine that he was 
>apparently using on the other side of the partition. 
>Her son, Gary, testifies to having been ordered by 
>management to "buy groceries. Leave the door open 
>with the key. He (Roger) had a lot of visitors. 
>Lasater was there at least once." 

>Dan Lasater was a major financial supporter of the 
>governor. Two Arkansas state troopers under oath have 
>testified to hustling then-Governor Clinton out of
>Lasater's famous drug parties. Neither ever saw 
>Clinton using drugs but one recognized that Clinton 
>was under the influence of drugs at a Lasater party.
>Lasater eventually employed Roger, and both were in 
>time convicted on drug offenses. The Governor pardoned 
>Lasater. Another witness to the Vantage Point
>revels who wishes anonymity has told reporters that 
>she saw Bill Clinton at the apartment at least three 
>times. 

>Roger Clinton finally left Vantage Point. "When we 
>went to clean out the apartment, we found marijuana." 
>Mrs. Parks asserts. "We found barbiturates, sleeping 
>pills. On the side of the table top, where a ridge 
>went around, white powder was wedged in the crack." 
>In the kitchen she and her assistant found drug
>paraphernalia. Mrs. Parks' husband was an independent 
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>investigator. Alarmed by the drugs and licentious 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>raillery she noted at Vantage Point, Mrs. Parks had
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>her husband Jerry monitor the place. "We had a video 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>camera....We didn't get all of it." Her husband was 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>shot dead in his car on an Arkansas road in
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>September 1993. The murder is described as a 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"professional hit." The files he kept on these 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>affairs were either hidden or stolen. Since Mrs. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Parks granted this interview, she has been threatened. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>This will make the third threat against her in recent 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>weeks. This time a man telephoned her to say, "You 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>will be dead before the election."
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Others have admitted to using drugs with Clinton. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>An alleged lover from the mid- 1980s, Sally Perdue, 
>is one. In Roger Morris' recent book Partners in
>Power, Morris quotes Roger Clinton on a 1983-84 
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>surveillance film stating, "Got to get some [cocaine] 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>for my brother. He's got a nose like a vacuum
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>cleaner." Now another woman has admitted to my 
 ^^^^^^^
>associate that she took cocaine with Bill Clinton 
>"no less than 20 times" during a period when she dated
>Roger. She is Asharlene Wilson, an Arkansas drug 
>informant. Recently the United States Supreme Court 
>overturned half of her sentence on a drug charge,
>though she remains sentenced to 31 years for her 
>conviction on three counts of possession. A former 
>Arkansas prosecutor, Jean Duffey, who used Wilson
>while Duffey headed an Arkansas drug task force, 
>has vouched for Wilson's veracity. In 1990 Wilson 
>also testified to a federal grand jury that she sold 
>Roger Clinton drugs in 1979 and saw both Clinton's 
>"snort" cocaine.

>Obviously from the above evidence (and more witnesses 
>are now being asked to speak out) we can conclude that 
>Bill Clinton's medical records might well include 
>information about drug use. As for the stories that 
>Clinton suffered from overdose no firsthand account 
>is available. The most frequently heard story is
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that in 1980 the defeated governor was admitted to 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the University of Arkansas Medical Center emergency 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>room for a cocaine overdose. It is well reported
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that in the aftermath of his defeat Clinton suffered 
>serious emotional problems. Possible witnesses to the 
>alleged scene in the emergency room whom we have
>approached are not very forthcoming. Yet their responses 
>have been more interesting than a flat out no. Rather 
>than denying knowledge, one nurse told us, "I can't 
>talk about that." Another stated that she feared for 
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>her life if she were to discuss the matter. When can 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>all these rumors be put to rest by Clinton simply
>opening his medical records? 


>R. Emmett Tyrrell, Jr. is editor-in-chief of The American 
>Spectator. His weekly column is distributed by Creators 
>Syndicate. 

>© 1996 The American Spectator. All rights reserved.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 11:32:46 PDT 1996
Article: 104232 of alt.censorship
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.censorship,alt.news-media,dc.politics,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.journalism.newspapers,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.libertarianism
Subject: FWD/REPOST: CLINTON: Ruddy Targeted by IRS audit
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 16:20:54 GMT
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stephenh@netcom.com (stephenh) wrote:

>Chris Ruddy, who has authored a series of investigative reports
>on the Clinton presidency scandals and the death of Vince Foster,
>appeared on the Michael Reagan (radio) Show Friday evening,
>Oct. 4.

>He said that the Western Journalism Center, a non-profit organization
>that helps support journalists such as Ruddy who might otherwise
>not be able to find a job in the politically correct mainstream media,
>is being audited by the IRS.

>Reagan said it was a thinly disguised move to clamp down on
>journalism deemed unfavorable to the Clinton administration,
>and that he has nidrectly felt the pressure from threats of IRS audits
>in the talk radio venue.

>Ruddy made the prediction:

>  "Hell hath no fury like a second Clinton administration."





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 15:26:37 PDT 1996
Article: 96239 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 18:55:38 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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neilk@earthlink.net (Neil) wrote:

>Your allegations against the Disney security
>people are a total farce based on hearsay and nothing more. 

>Debbie & Neil in Sunny Southern California

  Why, wouldn't ya know it, it's Debbie and Neil WHINER!
  Long-time-no-see on Saturday Night Live!
  But why so in denial about Disneyland? You guys work there? Maybe
picking up trash? Night crew or day crew?
  BTW, *EVERYTHING* I've written on the Net about the civil rights
abuses perpetrated against families by Disney security is entirely
documented. 
  Check out the Orange County Register articles for the past coupla
weeks. :-)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct  6 15:26:38 PDT 1996
Article: 96245 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.criticism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.activism,alt.politics.perot,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Read about Disney's disturbing JAIL practice yet?
Date: Sun, 06 Oct 1996 19:23:12 GMT
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stacks@airmail.net (Shawn G.Brown) wrote:

>You cannot be held
>>   indefinitely (And 5 hours is FAR too long) legally. Wrongful
>>   Imprisonment, or even KIDNAPPING, laws could be applied here!

>Yes, kidnapping could apply.

  Indeed.
  Not only that but, as one Disney lackey/apologist wrote earlier,
when the woman was held captive in the Disney jail behind Tomorrowland
and not *allowed* to find her older children, who were wandering the
park alone, Disney's fabled security/Gestapo "certainly knew where
they were every second."
  Thus, it seems that Disney is subject to being sued, not only for
kidnapping the Mom after wrongly-accusing her of shoplifting but, in
addition, possibly for kidnapping her children as well.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct  7 08:40:20 PDT 1996
Article: 96410 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What does arresting shoplifters have to do with homosexuality?
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 03:59:17 GMT
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  To those who are so utterly in denial -- perhaps due to swallowing
the current political correctness pablum which they've been fed by the
liberal media for so many years -- that they cannot discern the
"connection", here goes:

1.  Disney makes headlines one week when it announces it'll begin
extending medical and other benefits to the homosexual spouses of its
employees.
2. The following week or so, the same company is the focus of a series
of newspaper articles detailing how its employees apparently --
fairly-regularly, based on the number of lawsuits from wrongly-accused
park-goers it now faces -- falsely accuse the parents of children who
visit the park with shoplifting, then ask the shocked parents for
on-the-spot payments of $500.

  So, you see, the link was not so much between "homosexuality" and
"shoplifting" -- there being absolutely no reason to assume
homosexuals are any more prone to this crime than heterosexuals -- as
between Disney's ultra-"political-correctness" in establishing a new
homosexuality-friendly policy and its simultaneous, very real
persecution of the parents of children who visit Disneyland.
  You doubt it's persecution? Just read some of the articles that have
appeared in the Orange County Register newspaper describing what
Disney's security/Gestapo's done to parents. 
  You'll likely be shocked and outraged.
  While paid Disneyland mouthpiece Tom Brocato has expressed the
company's great arrogance regarding its security personnel's
outrageous behavior (e.g.: "We continue to stand by our policies and
the integrity of our security force and what they are doing") I have
no doubt that had, say, some other segment of society (NOT straight
parents) claimed a pattern of violations of its civil rights at the
park, the company would NEVER take such a dismissive approach.   
  BTW, I was wondering if Disney planned on funding the
benefits-to-the-homosexual-spouses-of-its-employees it announced (to
such approval in the media) by its controversial practices against
parents at its theme park.
  I mean, $500 here, $500 there -- before ya know it, you're talking
*real* money! ;-)
   





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  9 08:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 97148 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: 9 Oct 1996 04:08:10 GMT
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In <53cph1$7q0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> email-me@ix.netcom.com(Philee)
writes: 
>
>will someone tell me about the shoplifting incident?  I just started
>using this newsgroup!!

  It's not merely *ONE* incident.
  There have been quite a few, just SOME of which have been documented
in The Orange County Register newspaper recently.
  According to the first newspaper account of one such incident I read
about, the mother of a tot was hauled off by Disneyland security to the
park's jail -- yup, J-A-I-L (some Disney lackey's try to substitute
euphemisms such as "holding facility," etc.) -- behind Tomorrowland
when her 2-year-old walked a few feet out of a theme park store holding
a stuffed animal. 
  Whereupon she was hit up for an immediate, $500 on-the-spot payment
by Disney personnel.
  The $500 request for "civil damages" from the accused -- that's THE
*ACCUSED*, btw (this still is *America*, right?) -- was (as it is
typically, to the outrage of local judges and police) made in the
presence of a local cop who had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the
request.
  Of course, for people such as this poor mother who are *already* in
shock at being falsely/questionably accused of shoplifting, being asked
for $500 in front of a real cop (who, though the accused don't know it,
aren't involved), think it's an "official" request that will "take
care" of the matter.
  Later, after paying Disney $500, they wind up having to go to court,
where they have to cough up an additional $1000 in court fees -- even
though, not surprisingly, they *thought* the $500 they turned over to
Disney "took care of the matter."
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  9 08:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 97188 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: 9 Oct 1996 03:50:03 GMT
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In <53cq2f$mv3@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> email-me@ix.netcom.com(Philee)
writes: 
>
>I had the opposite experience at Disney. My two year old grandson had
>in his stroller a toy from a shop and we didnt notice it until we were
>a long way a way.  We went back to the store to return it and they
>thanked and said it happens alot.  Little kids do that but ususally
>the
>parents see the toy and return it.  I dont know what happened in this
>case that you are all talking about but maybe they saw the mother
>noticing it and NOT returning it.  What exactly happend?

  First, let me say it's refreshing to read that you had as a positive
experience what for some -- according to recent news reports -- has
been a nightmare.
  Clearly, however, you're unfamiliar with the recent articles which
have been appearing in the print media regarding this situation. If you
can, get ahold of the past two weeks of Orange County Register
newspapers and read 'em.
  Now, to answer the question you posed: ACCORDING TO THE ARTICLE WHICH
APPEARED IN THE 9/28/96 ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER NEWSPAPER WHICH
DESCRIBED WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MOTHER WHO WAS OUTRAGEOUSLY ACCUSED BY
DISNEYLAND SECURITY OF SHOPLIFTING AT THE PARK'S TINKERBELL TOY STORE,
THE 2-YEAR-OLD WHO WAS HOLDING THE STUFFED ANIMAL WAS *FOLLOWING* THE
WOMAN, WHO WAS PUSHING A STROLLER LOADED WITH PAID-FOR DISNEY
MEMORABILIA.
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct  9 08:50:26 PDT 1996
Article: 97189 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: I find this security "nightmare" hard to believe
Date: 9 Oct 1996 03:52:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <53f7im$mia@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1996Sep28.011216.29368@lafn.org> <52jjrd$klg@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <52jr0m$q16@castle.nando.net> <52kog7$jev@library.airnews.net> <52kr51$d5e@castle.nando.net> <324EC16B.3120@earthlink.net> <52q5f2$c2o@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <3250B1FC.68E6@wavenet.com> <52smj6$cnq@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <3253452F.4BA2@earthlink.net> <535fof$ob6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <53cqsh$aap@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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In <53cqsh$aap@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> email-me@ix.netcom.com(Philee)
writes: 
[snip]

> I dont know alot about this story but somehow I kind of feel
>that disney security didnt pick on this person for no good reason.

  Geez, with such pro-civil-liberties folks (not!) such as this
supporting them, Disneyland should create a special ACLU attraction at
the theme park . . . 
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 10 01:35:55 PDT 1996
Article: 97447 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: An open letter to"joebuck"- Put up or shut up!
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 04:12:54 GMT
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asland@ix.netcom.com(John T. Costello) wrote:

> . . .  you rarely fail to mention Disney's
>employee benefit policy..So, what's the connection, joe?
>    WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE?  

  I covered this entire issue earlier -- guess you were too busy
foaming at the mouth to have noticed it . . . :-(




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 10 01:35:55 PDT 1996
Article: 97451 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.polics.perot,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.activism,alt.christnet
Subject: FWD: Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 03:10:03 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 11
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References: <539pr1$2h4@news1.mnsinc.com>
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SkyWriter@public-action.com wrote:

>What really happened to the mothers and children? Not what they said on the evening 
>news. Graphic, brutal, and shocking. Hard evidence: autopsy reports and photographs, 
>trial transcripts, government ocuments, news photos, contemporaneous reports, and
>cogent analyses. Visit the Museum at 

>http://www.public-action.com/SkyWriter/WacoMuseum





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 10 09:53:21 PDT 1996
Article: 97468 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.libertarianism,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: The SPOTLIGHT Columbus Day Special
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 02:24:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  52 issues of The SPOTLIGHT -- only $31
call toll-free: (800) 522-6292

Sample headlines from the 10/7/96 issue:

WE TOLD YOU ABOUT TORTURED GIs -- Congress, Mainstream Media Years
Late With 'Discovery' of POWs

Banker's Death Tied to Conspiracy

What Went Wrong With Buchanan? What Action Should Populists Take?

U.S. Tells S. Korea To Play Down Sub Incident

Slave-Made Goods May Get Free Pass

Story of Abandoned U.S. GIs Told by Spotlight for 21 Years





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 11 09:43:10 PDT 1996
Article: 97809 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: An open letter to"joebuck"- Put up or shut up!
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:44:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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asland@ix.netcom.com (a foaming-at-the-mouth John Costello) wrote:

>    JohnC(wiping spittle from mouth):
>    err, ah, joe, ah you kind of forgot to give your cites while you
>were busy paraphrasing the Orange County Register.   Maybe you could 
>post the articles, or at least a few URLs  where us unenlightened 
>folks could find them.

  Hey, if you're too lazy to get up off yer butt and go to a library
which has/has access to the articles . . . you're helpless.
  Moreover, I not only provided the exact dates of articles but also
quoted them extensively. 
  And no, I'm NOT willing to Xerox the articles and mail 'em out/FAX
'em to ya, lazy.
  BTW: if you *do* decide to stop whining and actually READ the source
documentation for all the charges that have recently been made against
Disneyland, I hope you *do* wipe all that saliva off your mug. Seems
I've seen far too many spittle-faced types like you in public
libraries in the past. :-)

BTW: Which library to *YOU* want to go to today?



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 11 09:43:11 PDT 1996
Article: 97815 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 03:22:38 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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valet-info@svcdudes.com (Unregistered User) wrote:

>joe: what do same sex benifets have to do with apparent fascist behaviour
>by disney security guards?

>you carry guns right??? you won't give them up right??? maybe you should
>get a job at disneyland. advanced corporate policy does not necessarily
>mean that they have overwhelming control over their conservative police.

  Ohhhhhhhh . . . so *that*'s it, huh?: The ultra-politically-correct
chiefs at the top just "can't control" their overzealous (that's
putting it NICELY!) "conservative" security?
  And The White House had *no idea* what Oliver North was
oh-so-"fascistically" doing re: Iran-Contra, and Bill and Hillary
Clintons had *no idea* Craig Livingstone (who Hillary herself hired,
it now turns out!) was "fascistically" obtaining FBI reports on
thousands of American citizens?
  I doubt there are many still naive enough to believe such tripe.
  (BTW, don't forget that"national socialism" and and all other
fascisms were essentially leftist/socialist theories, dummy, but
that's a different thread altogether. . . 





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 11 09:43:12 PDT 1996
Article: 97846 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.criticism,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.libertarianism,alt.california,alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: FWD: Another lawsuit about Disney's Security Dept.
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 03:11:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 164
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References: <53jabn$pbl@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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mpanthera@aol.com (M Panthera) wrote:

>This story is about Disneyland's, and Disney World's now infamous security
>departments, and what they do to supposed shoplifters...

>.c The Associated Press 

>Terri Dorsett, a 17-year-old from Yadkinville, N.C., got a lesson in
>relentlessness after she visited the park with her high school band last
>year. 

>She and a few classmates visited a Disney store and were arrested for
>shoplifting, taken to the security office, fingerprinted and, her father
>says, prevented from calling anybody. ``She was hysterical,'' said Thomas
>Dorsett, a North Carolina businessman. 

>She also was innocent, she said. One of the other girls admitted dropping
>a $1.98 Mickey Mouse pen into Terri's shopping bag without her knowledge.
>He said his daughter passed a polygraph test he arranged. 

>Dorsett said he met with prosecutors and Disney officials who seemed
>sympathetic. He thought for sure the company would drop her case. But it
>never did. 

>``Disney would not back off,'' said the family's lawyer, Harrison
>Slaughter. 

  Look what they did to ex-policeman Mark Mazza, 39, a husband and
father: after he was arrested for using another guest's pass to get a
discount on annual passes (he claims Disneyland employees told him it
was ok), Disney actually sent its security people to a police
department internal-affairs hearing to testify against him. 
  He also claims Disneyland's security lied to police, according to a
recent Orange County Register newspaper article.
  Mazza was fired from the police force over this mess.
  Like I said in an earlier post, God knows Disney *had to* get a "bad
cop" such as Mazza off the police force. I mean, using someone else's
pass to get a discount on an annual park pass? A FELONY, isn't it?
  I, for one, feel safer knowing this cop/husband/dad -- who was
trained to protect society, and at great expense -- is off the
streets. (not!) 
  In sum, someone who was willing to literally put his life on the
line every day for a pittance (what'd he earn as a cop? $40,000 a
year?) to ensure public safety lost his job after Mike "The Twenty
Million Dollar Man" Eisner's security gestapo testified against him at
a police hearing.
  Great job, Disney!

>Dorsett spent $15,000 fighting the criminal charge that eventually went to
>trial. His daughter was acquitted. 

>Dorsett now has filed a federal civil suit against Disney and says he is
>convinced that Disney maliciously prosecutes innocent people. 

>``It's scary what can happen to a child,'' Dorsett says. ``The
>prosecutor's office, they are scared of Disney. Disney rules that area
>with an iron fist. It's a joke. 

>``Mickey Mouse is not the guy we thought he was,'' he said. 
.. . . 
>Vicki Prusnofsky, a metropolitan New York social worker, made one of her
>many trips to the park in February 1995 with her daughter and husband, a
>psychiatrist. They stayed in their time-share Disney World condominium. 

>While the other two went to ride little race cars, Mrs. Prusnofsky --
>accessorized in Mickey and Minnie earrings, Disney hat and sweatshirt --
>went to a shop to buy film. 

>She didn't bother to take her receipt, she said. 

>``I finally went outside and sat on a bench and started loading the
>camera,'' she said. ``These two obnoxious security women came after me
>flashing their badges and saying that I stole the film.'' 

>It was roughly 5 p.m. and she was supposed to meet her family at the
>spinning tea cups in an hour. But the security people would not let her go
>back into the store so the cashier could vouch for her story, she said. 

>Instead, she was taken to a security office where personnel demanded
>receipts for the Disney pins and clothing she'd purchased on previous
>trips. 

>``I just started crying,'' she said. 

>She was turned over to Orange County Sheriff's deputies, handcuffed,
>booked, fingerprinted, strip-searched and thrown in a cell with ``whores
>and thieves'' who harassed and even flirted with her for hours, she said. 

>Meanwhile, she said her frantic family holed up in the Disney town hall
>information center, but nobody could tell them where she was. 

>``They thought I was dead,'' she said. 

>Mrs. Prusnofsky, allowed to get $500 bail from an automatic teller
>machine, was reunited with her family at 1:45 a.m. 

>She said she pleaded no contest to the charge because she lacked the money
>and time to take on Disney and was, in fact, afraid. Now, after the
>mandatory one-year waiting period, she's applying to have the incident
>expunged from her record. 

>She did see a small local newspaper item about the Dorsett case and
>volunteered to offer a deposition on the teen's behalf. She has no plans
>to file her own suit. 

>``The emotional cost is just too great,'' she said. 
.. . . 
>Legally speaking, Orlando is a town divided. 
>Florida prohibits lawyers
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>from suing people they have represented in the past. Attorneys fall 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> into two opposing Disney camps. 

>Orlando lawyer Christi Underwood said she believes that Disney farms out
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>as much legal work as it can so it can continually expand its legal army
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and limit the number of lawyers who can sue it. Warren had no comment. 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Unlike other amusement parks which routinely reach small, quiet
>settlements with people who claim injuries, amusement industry lawyers say
>Disney is relentless about not making settlements. 

>One notable exception came last December when, just before trial, Disney
>abruptly paid off six former Disney dancers who had filed a $37.5 million
>lawsuit. 

>The women, entertainers in Disney's Kids of the Kingdom show, said
>employees spied on them through numerous peepholes in their dressing rooms
>-- and that one even installed a mirror in Cinderella's Castle to get
>better angles. 

>In what they claimed was a sign of corporate callousness, the women said
>Disney knew that one wardrobe worker was videotaping them for three months
>before finally snaring the man in a lurid sting operation that went on for
>more than an hour while the dancers unwittingly disrobed. 

>Foglesong said the Peeping Tom case is an example of the pitfalls of
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>privatizing a public function like police work. The first instinct of the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>police is to protect Disney, he said, not the victims. 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Disney is exempt from state amusement ride inspections and its records are
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>closed. When accidents do occur, Orlando lawyer John Morgan said Disney
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>security people write slanted reports. 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>``They get that injury reported in the light most favorable to them. You
>never have a witness in the interim report that has anything unfavorable
>to say about Disney,'' said Morgan. 
.. . . 
>AP-NY-09-30-96 2355EDT 

>Copyright 1996 The Associated Press.  The information  contained in the AP
>news report may not be published,  broadcast, rewritten or otherwise
>distributed without  prior written authority of The Associated Press. 







From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 11 09:43:13 PDT 1996
Article: 97902 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!iag.net!news.magicnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.conservatism,alt.libertarianism,alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.disney,alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,talk.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: What joebuck has been doing lately -Was:Re: The SPOTLIGHT Columbus Day Special
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 02:27:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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asland@ix.netcom.com (John T. Costello) wrote:

>I found this on alt.conspiracy, and thought regular readers of joebuck
>on other newsgroups might want to help joe out by buying a subscription
>to the Spotlight.  If he sells 100 subscriptions, he wins a bicycle.

  Well, in fact, I have *NO* connection whatsoever with The SPOTLIGHT,
other than as a regular reader of this highly-interesting weekly
newspaper.
  I mean, what other publication in America can boast of providing
forums for BOTH of the most famous JFK assassination researchers in
the world, Mark Lane [author: "Rush to Judgement"] and Fletcher Prouty
("MR X," played by Donald Sutherland, in the Oliver Stone film "JFK"]?
  However, now that you mention it, I believe the publisher of The
SPOTLIGHT actually *DOES* offer entrepeneurs an attractive
distribution program. And, from what I know about it, they offer such
distributors pretty good cash -- enough to buy a really fine
"bicycle"! :-) 
  Basically, I believe, one gets a commission based on numbers of
subscriptions sold.
  Frankly, I think this program is a wonderful opportunity for folks
to earn extra money-- the payment plan, as I recall, was quite
generous -- while doing some really worthwhile work.
  In particular, I have no doubt that there are a quite a few bright
college-aged entrepreneurs out there who might literally be able to
help finance their educations by this kind of part-time work.
  Thanks for reminding me of the program and providing an excuse to
give it an online plug! :-)

>In <53hn9n$cph@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> joebuck@ix.netcom.com writes:

>>  52 issues of The SPOTLIGHT -- only $31
>>call toll-free: (800) 522-6292
>>
>>Sample headlines from the 10/7/96 issue:
>>
>>WE TOLD YOU ABOUT TORTURED GIs -- Congress, Mainstream Media Years
>>Late With 'Discovery' of POWs
>>
>>Banker's Death Tied to Conspiracy
>>
>>What Went Wrong With Buchanan? What Action Should Populists Take?
>>
>>U.S. Tells S. Korea To Play Down Sub Incident
>>
>>Slave-Made Goods May Get Free Pass
>>
>>Story of Abandoned U.S. GIs Told by Spotlight for 21 Years




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 12 10:53:52 PDT 1996
Article: 73488 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Aluminum foil contains pork? [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month 4)]
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 05:35:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <53nb8a$3to@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <535f3o$5mj@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <535rmk$82i@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <5365ro$qtb@news1.panix.com> <538hir$rr9@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <538k1l$hqn@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <01bbb7f2$3fb1b4c0$58263ece@radix.wwnet.com>
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"w.j.ward"  wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote in article
><538k1l$hqn@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>...
>> >  After reading the allegation [in"Beth Dailey's" (Dave Braun's?)
>> >recently-posted expose of the kosher-certification racket] that
>> >nowadays even aluminum foil receives expensive koher certification by
>> >rabbis, I checked the generic foil in my cupboard.
>> >  This allegation I had found hard to believe. 
>> >  But I checked anyway.
>> >  It *IS* kosher!
>> >  I never knew aluminum foil contained pork! :-)

>But, yes, Jews do have Kosher plates, etc.  I don't have any problem with
>foods and aluminum foil being Kosher, but I certainly hope that the rabbi
>doing the inspection, etc. is not CHARGING for his time.  If he is getting
>paid, then that means that we are all paying a higher price!

  HA!!!!!!!!!!!
  BTW, I'm not laughing at *you*, w.j. ward (and thanks for that
intriguing info about the Haitian "Bauxite Connection," btw) but at
your honest outrage at the idea that kosher-certifying rabbis might be
charging companies for their religious services.
  The fact of the matter is, the three major kosher-certification
organizations charge food companies MILLIONS of dollars annually for
letting them put that kosher symbol on products -- even non-food
products such as aluminum foil.
  Use the  Deja News search engine to bring up Beth Dailey's recent
detailed post about the kosher food certification racket -- it
contains lots of facinating information about the scheme, whether you
find it outrageous or don't care either way.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 12 12:13:26 PDT 1996
Article: 98151 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: An open letter to"joebuck"- Put up or shut up!
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 03:55:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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neilk@earthlink.net (Neil) wrote:

>As we can all see.. you choose to post in "alt.feminism" (??), a
>rather strange place for your self-image of Macho Man.... a rather far
>cry from reality. Joe.... GET HELP... you need it.

  What in the world are you TALKING about?: This *IS* my therapy! :-0
  But all seriousness aside, the reason I included alt.feminism in the
distribution list for this thread is that a disproportionate number of
the falsely/questionably accused Disneyland patrons seemed to be
womyn. ;-)
  Or haven't you actually *read* my posts yet -- instead preferring
to weigh in with your musings out of ignorance? 
  I thought the reason for the inclusion of the alt.witchcraft
newsgroup in the thread's distribution was quite obvious. 





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 12 12:13:27 PDT 1996
Article: 98182 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsgate.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,soc.libertarianism,alt.libertarianism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: US teens now REQUIRED to do 'charity'
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 03:34:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:98182 alt.politics.usa.republican:303269 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:392876 alt.politics.perot:59053

  That's right: in order to graduate from high school -- the same high
schools so many of them leave empty-headed, but with pockets full of
condoms and birth-control pills -- US teenagers are now being
*required* to perform charitable work.
  (Maybe it's me, but I thought that if you *MUST* do it, it's not
"charity." Otherwise the millions who Pol Pot evacuated from the
cities of Cambodia and sent out to the killing fields would be
considered the most "charitable" people in history. Then agian, it
*does* take a vilage, right? Hillary Clinton and Pol Pot both say so,
anyway.)
 According to an Associated Press article this past Tuesday, 10/8/96, 

        "On Monday, the Supreme Court turned away the 
          appeal of a former New York high school student
          denied his diploma because he refused to partcipate 
          in a mandatory community service program. That
          means that for now, public schools can begin, or 
          continue, to make charitable work a graduation
          requirement."

  The article continues,

        "In the New York case, the family of Daniel Immediato, 
         a student at Rye Neck High School in Mamaroneck, N.Y.,
         said the mandatory community-service program amounted 
         to slavery, or involuntary servitude. It also argued that the

         program violated the youth's privacy rights and his parents'

         right to direct his education.
       ". . . Immediato, who did not get a diploma, began studying for
         the high school equivalency test."

  The report details another case in which a school district refused
to recognize the community service work another young person performed
in earning an Eagle Scout badge. ("Oh, those damn Boy Scouts again!,"
the Clintonistas must undoubtedly be screaming.]
  Scott G. Bullock of the conservative-leaning Institute for Justice,
who represents families opposed to mandatory community-service
service/charity requirements, says the only such program that's
constitutional is one that allows students to work at ANY nonprofit
organization, "not just the ones approved by the school district."
  Another student in the young, diploma-less Immediato's Rye Neck
school district was also rejected by the school district's
authoritarian bureaucrats when he sought to have his door-to-door work
as a Jehova's Witness counted as community service. The school
district said the student "was working for a religion," and thus that
work was not eligible for community-service credit.
  "The school district's attorney, Phyllis Jaffe, said the district
doesn't count religious activities as community service, but a student
could, for example, work for a church that serves meals to the
homeless."

 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 12 12:13:28 PDT 1996
Article: 98201 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.perot,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.christnet,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: The AIDS quilt...
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 04:30:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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U.S. newspaper headline, 10/6/96:

"San Francisco shrine to AIDS victims will get U.S. memorial status"

The Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO --  A quiet wooded grove -- one of the first public
places commemorating AIDS victims -- will soon join the ranks of Mount
Rushmore, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial and other national landmarks..
  Dozens of people have been gathering at the 15-acre site in Golden
Gate Park since the U.S. Senate voted Thursday to designate the area
as the AIDS National Memorial Grove.
   President Clinton is expected to sign the Omnibus Parks and Public
Lands Management Act, which included the national memorial designation
.. . .  [snip] 
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 12 12:13:29 PDT 1996
Article: 98217 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsgate.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: An open letter to"joebuck"- shut up!
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 05:17:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Dan  wrote:

>I know I said I wouldn't enter into this "paranoid world of joebuck
>thread" anymore, but I just wanted to share the URLs requested:
[snip]
>Note I am not calling either side a liar.  I do hope, however, that this
>lady did not really go through all the crap she claims she did - that
>would suck.

>I also understand a lady who made a similar claim is getting threatening
>phone calls (as mentioned on the local news).  I hope the sick person
>doing THAT sobers up...

>Oh - I guess I went back on my word...

  What?
  You're actually seriously considering the *unthinkable* possibility
that the numerous people who've recently gone public about the civil
rights abuses they suffered at Disneyland might be telling the truth?
 You know, you are one helluva "paranoid" individual. ;-)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 12 12:47:37 PDT 1996
Article: 481609 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!bcm.tmc.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.perot,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.christnet,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: The AIDS quilt...
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 04:30:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <53n7dg$et1@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <325F0C0B.1663@ix.netcom.com>
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U.S. newspaper headline, 10/6/96:

"San Francisco shrine to AIDS victims will get U.S. memorial status"

The Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO --  A quiet wooded grove -- one of the first public
places commemorating AIDS victims -- will soon join the ranks of Mount
Rushmore, the Vietnam Veterans Memorial and other national landmarks..
  Dozens of people have been gathering at the 15-acre site in Golden
Gate Park since the U.S. Senate voted Thursday to designate the area
as the AIDS National Memorial Grove.
   President Clinton is expected to sign the Omnibus Parks and Public
Lands Management Act, which included the national memorial designation
.. . .  [snip] 
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 13 10:32:42 PDT 1996
Article: 98423 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: joebuck's Top Ten Reasons For Not Visiting Disneyland
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 19:40:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 10
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asland@ix.netcom.com (John T. Costello) wrote:

[snip]
>AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON JOEBUCK WON'T VISIT DISNEYLAND:

>#1 -KOSHER ALUMINUM FOIL ON THE HOT DOGS!

*LOVE* it! ROFL! :-0  




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 13 10:32:43 PDT 1996
Article: 98434 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: An open letter to"joebuck"- shut up!
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 19:37:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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isuzu@imap1.asu.edu wrote:

>I don't get it, joebuck.  You flame people that disagree with you.  You 
>flame people that simply ask for more information.  You flame people who 
>corroborate your accounts of the news articles.  You're going to flame 
>me for this, but I can take it.

  Look, I actually DON'T do what you claim above. Disagreement with
someone, or pointing out an irony in what they wrote, is *not* -- last
I heard -- considered "flaming."
  Responding during the course of a debate with a witty/snappy
comeback isn't automatically flaming, "either," IMO.
  Now, all I did earlier in this thread was -- I thought rather
perceptively, though you may think "sarcastically" -- indicate the
irony of one correspondent who, after referring to "the paranoid
little world that joebuck lives in," proceeded to admit that some of
the things that I've reported on re: Disneyland security, if proven to
be true, are very disturbing.
  In fact, I believe he/she wrote that, if the recent newspaper
reports about Disneyland's alleged civil rights violations are
accurate, that would "suck." 

>If you want your argument taken seriously, then debate your side 
>rationally and act like an adult.  Anybody wishing to disagree should do 
>the same.  If you want to continue flaming and name-calling . . . 

  C'mon now, I really must say that there's been precious little -- if
any -- "name-calling" going on.
  And, as for myself, if I have, indeed, been too "sarcastic" or come
close to "flaming" anyone I hereby apologize to one and all for doing
so. 
  I think we should all be a bit more sensitive to people while
online, as the nature of this new cyber-medium seems, regretably, to
lend itself to less-than-civil behavior at times.
  Hope everyone has a wonderful weekend! :-)




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 13 10:32:44 PDT 1996
Article: 98475 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsgate.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:43:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <53p0df$s7u@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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silvah@spectra.net (harry silva) wrote:

>neilk@earthlink.net (Neil) wrote:
>>totally rediculous prejudices such as those demonstrated by you,
>>joebuck, would make a service such as an Internet provider a farce. I
>>am a Disneyland regular. Your allegations against the Disney security
>>people are a total farce based on hearsay and nothing more. 

  Remember, now, all the information I've presented in my posts in
this thread was gleaned from The Orange County Register newspaper --
yet this Disney apologist "Neil" characterizes it as "hearsay."

>I have been following this thread for some time.  What I have seen is
>a complete polization on both ends.   If you like/love Disney you
>think they can do no wrong, if you hate Disney they are an Evil being.

  Well, methinks *YOU'RE* going overboard now. :-( 
  While there clearly ARE some (to me, amusing) Disney
apologists/lackeys such as the above-quoted "Neil" lingering about
these newsgroups, I know for a fact that all -- indeed, most -- those
who "like/love" Disney are (thankfully!) NOT like him.
  Neither do the critics largely look upon Disney as somekind of "Evil
Being" -- *I* sure don't, anyway.

>I'm neither a lover of Disney nor do I think they are Evil.

  Same here. 
  I just believe that it's clear, based on the published newspaper
articles I've read, that Disneyland security really may have
overstepped ethical -- and legal -- boundaries and wronged quite a few
park patrons.  

>But there are some facts that you have overlooked...

>This Woman was stopped and treated badly by DisneyLand security.  That
>is a fact.  Did she , or her son, intentionally steal this 'doll' or
>did Disney Overreact.   

  Don't forget, the tot who "stole" the stuffed animal (by openly
walking out of the Tinkerbell Toy Store with it) was all of two years
old. 
  What do* YOU* think: can a two-year-old "shoplift"?

>I don't know, the incident happened.  Reporting it here seems
>appropriate.  

  Again, agreed.
  What I find rather disturbing, however, is the mindset of some
Disneyland fans who, IMO, are in denial about some serious alleged
civil rights and ethical abuses at the park. A PATTERN of such serious
abuses, in fact.
  Rather than say, "Wow, based on the evidence and the series of
lawsuits that've been filed, it sure looks like Disneyland security
may have overstepped the line, let's make sure it stops," the Disney
apologists dismiss the charges out of hand, all too often.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 13 12:22:09 PDT 1996
Article: 98801 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 16:56:47 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 129
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LouM  wrote:

>If you want to know what Joebuck has really been doing on the Internet,
>here's
>the scoop:

>He has made numerous posts about supposed "Nazi police" tactics on
>various boards (including this one). 

  Well, Disneyland's security sure *HAS* been rather "gestapo-like" in
the way it's abused some park-going families, detained and
falsely-accused them, etc.
  I think any fair-minded, civil-rights-valuing American would come
away with the same impression if they'd read the numerous newspaper
articles I have recently.

>Over on alt.politics.usa.republican, he
>posted a series of articles about how the "Jewish Establishment" is threatening us all.
  
  Huh? 

>On the fan.rush.limbaugh group, he joined in the Waco hysteria (the hysteria
>which eventually led to the bombing in Oklahoma City), encouraging a link to a
>"Waco Holocaust Museum".

  Talk about "hysterical"! Try looking in the mirror!

>On another group, he argued that a former Nazi
>shouldn't have been deported for trial, along with a number of anti-Israel posts.

  Oh, you're referring to John Demjanjuk -- a U.S. citizen who was
(contrary to your outrageous slander) NEVER a Nazi (in fact, he was
enslaved by them himself!) -- who was found NOT GUILTY --  in an
*Israeli* court, moreover -- of being a concentration camp guard
called "Ivan the Terrible." 
  [BTW, I'd love to see the REAL "Ivan the Terrible" brought to
justice for his crimes.]
  BTW, Demjanjuk's Israeli lawyer -- his name is Sheftel -- has
written a new book about the Nazi tactics the Israeli government so
nastily and ironically used against this falsely-accused and
persecuted American citizen (who even Israeli authorities themselves
now grudgingly admit was innocent.)
  Hey! Look at this!:
1. Demjanjuk was falsely-accused and I defended him.
2. All those families who are now suing Disney were falsely-accused
and I'm now defendingTHEM. 
  Could there be a pattern here? If so, I damn proud of it! :-)

 >He also posted an article claiming that the United Nations had taken
>over our national park system, and that the Senate had OK'd a "Homosexual
>National Landmark".

  Instead of making blanket statements such as the above, I encourage
you to repost *exactly* what I've written -- which was all based on
reports in the mainstream press, incidentally.

>He ranted against the fact that a school chose to celebrate
>Mexican Independence Day with some festivities (and he has posted a series of
>anti-Mexico articles.).

  Another laughable distortion. :-0

>He also supported Saddam Hussein's right to be free from US interference in his "internal affairs", 

  I don't remember that one, but I'd say I generally agree with it
nonetheless. 
  BTW, "Lou," you wouldn't happen to be one of those former Vietnam
War protestors from the 1960's who -- now middle-aged yourself -- are
now oh-so-gung-ho about sending TODAY'S young men and women to be
killed in foreign adventures, ARE YOU????????????????
  But imagine: someone supports the sovereignty of a foreign nation
and opposes the idea that the U.S. has a right to be the "policeman of
the world"! 
  The NERVE!

>and claimed that both Clinton and Dole are controlled by Jewish financial backers.

  Yup, the Israel Lobby's cleverly got it's money in BOTH the Democrat
AND the Republican campaigns so that, *WHOEVER* wins, the annual
multi-billion-dollar U.S.-taxpayer handouts to Israel keep going up up
and AWAY.
  I mean, EVERYONE knows this. Are you trying to deny it?  
Again, repost what I've written -- then let the reader decide if what
I wrote is accurate or not.

>He has posted that President Clinton is a cocaine addict,

  Well, even some in the mainstream media wonder about Clinton's
early-1980's Little Rock emergency room visit, apparently for
treatment of a cocaine overdose, when he was suffering from his
widely-known post-election-defeat depression after losing his
Governor's position.

>a bullimic,

  ?

>maybe suffering from AIDS,
>and that the President ordered the execution of a
>phone phreaker! 
>He has said that he will probably write in Pat Buchannan's name when he votes for
>President. 

  True.

>He has stated that he considers the Olympic opening ceremonies to be
>a "pagan ritual", 

  I don't recall that one, but yes, there *are* some who see elements
of paganism in the Olympics opening ceremonies.
  I mean, Hitler and the Nazis LOVED all that spectacle, etc.

>He complained because Steven Speilberg received a grant to film elderly
>Holocaust survivorís testimonies before they die.

  Yes I did. 
  I complained because I can't justify giving a multimillionaire
[billionaire?] Hollywood producer a $1 million government grant for
his Holocaust project -- no matter how worthwile the project itself
may be. ESPECIALLY at a time when the government is essentially
bankrupt and already $billions$ in debt.
  As I wrote, "How many top-of-the-line computers could that $1
million have bought for U.S. schoolchildren instead?"

>And all of this in the last 30 days!

  Well, I *am* prolific, ain't I? :-)




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 13 19:31:45 PDT 1996
Article: 98891 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.nd.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.libertarianism
Subject: Read these books yet? Seen these videos yet?
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 01:47:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <53k9fk$ngp@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca12-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Oct 10  8:56:04 PM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:98891 alt.politics.usa.republican:304547 alt.politics.perot:59319 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:393605

  The following Clinton-related books are available from Liberty
Library:

1. Bill Clinton: Friend or Foe?, By Ann Wilson, 242 pps., $15
2. The Politics of Meaning: A Dark Comedy About Today's
    Politics, By Daniel Graham, 246 pps., $16.95
3. A Special report on Vincent Foster's Death and His Involvement in
    the Whitewater Affairs, By Alexander Magnus, 109 pps., $12.95
4. Compromised: Clinton, Bush and the CIA, ByTerry Reed, hardback, 681

    pps., $20
5. Partners in Power -- The Clintons and Their America By Roger 
    Morris, hardback, 526 pps., $30

Videos:

1. The Death of Vincent Foster: What Really happened?, VHS, color,   
    $21.95
2.  The Clinton Chronicles: AN Investigation into the Alleged Criminal

     Activities of Bill Clinton, VHS, color, $21.95
3.  The Mena Connection, VHS, color, $21.95

*Special Bonus Offer*: Buy three or more Clinton items and they'll
send you a FREE "Beware Slick Willie" 100% cotton T-shirt, complete
with a colorful silk screened cartoon of Bill Clinton in "gigolo's"
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Information disseminated for informational purposes only.]

To charge by phone: call toll-free 1-800-522-6292





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 14 09:59:38 PDT 1996
Article: 99027 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 03:32:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <53scp7$k8l@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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bdickus@netcom.com (Biggus Dickus) wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Oct 1996 20:39:20 -0700, LouM  wrote:
>>If you want to know what Joebuck has really been doing on the Internet,
>>here's the scoop:
>>
>

>>And all of this in the last 30 days!

>This guy should be given a medal.  There are millions more real
>Americans just like him out there, out here.  What he has said is the
>truth.  If you don't like it, move to Israel.  Just don't expect an
>American taxpayer to defend you or support your oppression of the
>Palestinians.

  Thank you. :-)
  It's nice to know there are other genuine Patriots out there, of the
type President George "No entangling alliances!" Washington would, I
like to think, be proud.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 14 09:59:39 PDT 1996
Article: 99034 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 03:43:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <53sdd9$kic@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <53cph1$7q0@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <53f8fa$clj@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <53g55b$2d8@panix2.panix.com> <53hoco$rqg@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <53htkf$74u@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <53k0c1$77s@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <53kcr8$d3@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <53mk37$m05@chile.earthlink.net> <53nklg$l0u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32606468.269F@loop.com> <53s3qe$6qe@uruguay.earthlink.net>
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neilk@earthlink.net (Neil) wrote:

>    But Lou... it's ALL true. Well... at least in his tangled, sick
>mind. He's anti-semitism, anti-black, anti-homosexual... hell, let's
>face it... he's just plain anti-social. 
>Neil in Sunny Southern California

"Anti-semitism"?
 Oh, I forgot, anyone who criticizes Israel is an "antisemite."

"Anti-black"?
 I doubt the several  African-Americans with whom I'm friends/on
friendly terms would agree! (And please, refer to them as
African-American!)

"Anti-homosexual"?
 Not at all. I may oppose one aspect of their "lifestyle," but love
them as brothers nonetheless.

"Anti-social"?
Methinks perhaps you're merely projecting on 'lil ole *ME*what you
fear about yourself.

Joe  "I'm OK, you're *not* OK" Buck :-)




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 14 22:59:24 PDT 1996
Article: 99479 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.criticism,alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.libertarianism,alt.california,alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: FWD: Another lawsuit about Disney's Security Dept.
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 02:14:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <53usj4$5a5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <53jabn$pbl@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <53kedv$cnu@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> 
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daves@procom.com (David Stinson) wrote:

>Ever wondered _WHY_ the Register posts so many ANTI-Disney articles, Mr. Buck?

  Well, Mr. Stinson, I assume it's because Disney does such bad
things, and with such frequency -- such as engaging in a pattern of
civil rights abuses against patrons who frequent it's namesake theme
park. 
  DUH!

>-- 
> David A. Stinson   Web Page: http://www.procom.com/~daves/index.html 
>Product Integration Work E-Mail      : daves@procom.com
>     Engineer       Personal E-Mail  : dstinson@ix.netcom.com   or
>Procom Technology                      dastinson@aol.com
>**** OPINIONS ABOVE ARE THOSE OF D.STINSON, AND NOT NECESSARILY THOSE OF PROCOM TECHNOLOGY ****




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 16 00:51:38 PDT 1996
Article: 99989 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.disney,alt.disney.criticism
Subject: Re: FWD: Another lawsuit about Disney's Security Dept.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:55:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 36
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daves@procom.com (David Stinson) wrote:

>In article <53usj4$5a5@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>: daves@procom.com (David Stinson) wrote:
>: 
>: >Ever wondered _WHY_ the Register posts so many ANTI-Disney articles,
>Mr. Buck?
>: 
>:   Well, Mr. Stinson, I assume it's because Disney does such bad
>: things, and with such frequency -- such as engaging in a pattern of
>: civil rights abuses against patrons who frequent it's namesake theme
>: park. 
>:   DUH!
>: 

>First, I would ask why you chose to answer twice with two different answers.

  I dunno. I can't say.

>Second, the person alleging all these "Bad things" is you, not the
>newspaper. The articles do not put the spin on the reports that you have
>and read quite differently from what you are reporting.

  If I thought you actually got off your butt and actually READ the
Register newspaper articles I'd pursue this ludicrous claim.
  If I believed you spoke from knowledge instead of ignorance I'd
address your ridiculous claim.

>Third, you're a TROLL. Enough of this. Follow-ups set.

  *You* may be a "troll" but I'm not.
  I know you are but what am I?





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 16 08:14:09 PDT 1996
Article: 100055 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney,alt.disney.disneyland,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: FWD: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 04:25:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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entropym@aol.com (ENTROPYM) wrote:

>In article <32606468.269F@loop.com>, LouM  writes:

>>He also posted an article claiming that the United Nations had taken
>>over our
>>national park system

>Taken over isn't completely accurate, but we do have a treaty with the UN
>(about ten years old) whereas the UN has a say in what we do with some of
>our land. I believe the lake of the woods in Montana is one of such
>places.
>It stems from the one-world government advocates and the biodiversity
>treaties.

>>He has posted that President Clinton is a cocaine addict, a bullimic,
>>maybe suffering from AIDS.

>"You know that brother of mine...he has a nose like a vacuum cleaner.."
>Roger Clinton on an FBI surveillance tape.
>The president has refused to release his medical report. Previous
>presidents as well as Bob Dole have released the colplete report. Mike
>McCurry has refused to deny that the President may have a STD. Make your
>own conclusions.

>Before you label me, check it out. 


>Mickey Morgan
>"Nobody, on their death bed, has ever wished
> that they had spent more time at the office." Author unknown.
>------------------------
>"Charachter is doing the right thing when nobody is looking" J.C. Watts




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 18 10:03:42 PDT 1996
Article: 100599 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.webspan.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Disturbing new Clinton allegation surfaces
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:15:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  [Sir Eldon Griffiths is president of the Orange County [California]
World Affairs Council, a former member of the British House of
Commons, and director of the Center for International business at
Chapman University in California.]

"An open letter to President Bill Clinton"
By Eldon Griffiths

Dear Mr. President:
[snip]
  "Allow me, therefore, to recall the first -- and only -- occasion
when we've laid eyes on one another. You were a student at Oxford. I
was a British M.P. Richard Nixon was in the White House and the Oxford
Union Debating Society had put down a motion that Britain should break
with America over U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Nixon sent his
secretary of state, Bill Rogers, to speak against that motion. I was
invited to support him, which, as one of the strongest supporters of
the United States in the British Parliament, I very gladly did (though
it cost me among my constituents). In the event, we won the argument
against two socialists who spoke in favor of the "Down with America"
motion; but the most difficult task Bill Rogers and I had during the
debate was to face down those whose hostility to their own country's
policies pursuaded a lot of Brits to vote for the break with America.
  "Weren't you one of those characters, Bill? The Oxford Union doesn't
keep records, but didn't you and your fellow Rhodes scholars, Strobe
Talbott and Robert Reich, go around Oxford blasting the U.S. military,
of which you now are commander in chief?"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 18 10:03:43 PDT 1996
Article: 100603 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Disturbing new Clinton allegation surfaces
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 01:28:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  BTW, I am *NOT* going to vote for Dole, either, so don't get the
idea that I posted the above msg as part of some GOP campaign effort.
(I'm planning to vote for Ross Perot or write-in Buchanan.)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 19 12:23:42 PDT 1996
Article: 100962 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.christnet
Subject: Sperm-for-Blood deal nixed by hypocritical Brits
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:26:26 GMT
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>From  a 10/18/96 Associated Press article:

"LONDON -- A widow's hopes to become pregnant with her late husband's
sperm were dashed by a British court Thursday because she does not
have his written permission.
  "Diane Blood, 30, wept in the High Court when she heard she could
not use the sperm taken from her hiusband, Stephen, as he lay
hospitalized in a coma nearly two years ago.
  " 'We planned a baby before he died,' Blood told reporters after her
court appearance. 'I don't see why my life, as I planned it, should
have ended . . . 
  "The regulatory Human Fertilization and Embryology Authority ruled 
                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that it is unlawful for her to be inseminated artificially with her
husband's sperm without his written authorization . . . "

  Note the name of that British government regulatory bureaucracy:
"The Human Fertilization and Embryology Authority"! 
  I mean, is that one helluva "1984"-ish sounding name or not?
  What I find of particular interest here is that, so far as I know,
British law doesn't require that the father of an unborn child who the
mother wants to ABORT must give his signed permission before the
unborn's life may be taken.
  Yet look what they're doing to this poor widow who's seeking to
bring new life INTO the world, rather than kill existing life as in
abortion: "No baby for you, lady, 'cause the comotose would-be daddy
-- your husband -- didn't give his written permission." 
  What a sick world.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 19 12:23:43 PDT 1996
Article: 100965 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.current-events.usa,alt.impeach.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Disturbing new Clinton allegation surfaces
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:16:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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SwopaTwo@aol.com (Swopa) wrote:

>In article <547nq0$j1m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote: (excerpt)


>> >>  "Weren't you one of those characters, Bill? The Oxford Union doesn't
>>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >>keep records, but didn't you and your fellow Rhodes scholars, Strobe
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >>Talbott and Robert Reich, go around Oxford blasting the U.S. military,
>>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >>of which you now are commander in chief?"
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
><> 
>>   I think what bothers a lot of people is that he and his cohorts
>> denouncing the U.S. -- now part of his administration, ironically --
>> did so on foreign soil.   

>Actually, there *is* a documentary record that one of the 
>speakers at a demonstration in London during that time was
>Michael Boskin, the head of Pres. Bush's Council of Economic
>Advisers and a top policy consultant to the Dole campaign.

  First, your reference to "a" demonstration is simply not good
enough. It's not even close to being so.
   For example, Mr. Griffiths, in his revelatory and disturbing "Open
Letter to President Bill Clinton," provides substantial and specific
information about the event where he encountered Bill Clinton engaging
in truly anti-American behavior.
  *You*, OTOH, merely mention some entirely out-of-the-blue
"demonstration" which, you allege, Mr. Boskin attended. 
  Where and when was it held?
  What did Mr. Boskin say?
  I mean, let's recall that the motion being debated at the Oxford
Union that evening-- a motion which Bill Clinton was so fervantly in
favor of -- was "Down with America," wrote Griffiths, the former 
British MP who witnessed the whole thing -- and crossed paths with a
"hostile" (to the U.S. military) William J. Clinton.
 Publically and actively supporting such a motion -- in a foreign
country, no less -- simply must, I think, be characterized as
"anti-American".
   [Oh, and in case you haven't noticed, Michael Boskin, an economic
adviser to Bush/Dole, is *NOT* the President of the United States and
Commander-in-Chief of its Armed Forces: Bill Clinton -- who Griffiths
indicates "went around Oxford blasting the U.S military" -- is. 
  If/when Michael Boskin becomes Commander-in-Chief of U.S. military
personnel, and -- like Clinton's done -- sends them to be killed in
places such as Haiti to secure the power of a violent kook such as 
"Mr.'Necklacing' " Arsitede, I'll be happy to look further into
exactly what Boskin said in his "speech" at "a" demonstration.
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 19 12:23:44 PDT 1996
Article: 100969 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:39:39 GMT
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neilk@earthlink.net (Neil) wrote:

>Lillith  wrote:

>>Neil-

>>Oh, so he's a Rush Limbaugh fan.

>Lillith-
>   
> I don't think so. He's just  a fan of himself. Not one to like
>anything that anyone else has to say, but full of love for his own
>idiocy.
>Neil in Sunny Southern California

  Fascinating: if one doesn't agree with "Neil," then one must not
agree with "anyone else". 
  I Iove that [il]logic!
  Fact is, I agree with *lots* of my fellow Internauts, and enjoy
hearing from them in the ng's as well as via email.
  But again, if I have been a bit too sarcastic at times, or not as
gentle as I could have been, I genuinely apologize.
  I truly don't wish to hurt anyone's feelings.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 19 12:23:45 PDT 1996
Article: 100975 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:34:14 GMT
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Lillith  wrote:

>a person, who happened to be Jewish, bought the house you wanted, or, 
>got the promotion you didn't get OR took out the library book you were 
>waiting for.....

  Well, "Lillith@anon.com," since you appear to be obsessed with your
own Jewishness (btw, as you know, I myself never, ever asked you what
your religion was or made any derogatory comments about Judaism, which
I respect), I would like to point out for the others who may be
following this thread that about two weeks ago you sent me quite a
nasty -- I think anyone, regardless of religion, would agree on that
characterization -- email in which your shared with me your venom for
Christians.
  Of course, I can't reply to you because you're using a fake ISP
address ("anon.com") so that my replies just bounce back to me when I
do try to reply to you.
  You *do* remember that email letter, dontcha, "Lillith@anon.com"?
  In addition, you have more recently been sending me, on an
almost-daily basis, other emails that, while not as hateful as the
anti-Christian one of a couple of weeks ago, fortunately, are
nonetheless suggestive of someone who needs to be a little more
tolerant of those who disagree with them.
  IOW, grow up gal.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 19 12:23:46 PDT 1996
Article: 100978 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
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Lillith  wrote:

>Neil-

>Oh, so he's a Rush Limbaugh fan.

>:-)

>L.

  Not. The guy's a statist, IMO. :-)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 19 12:23:47 PDT 1996
Article: 101180 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:23:23 GMT
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Lillith  wrote:

>Excuuuuuuuuuuuse me?!

>Nice tall tale.

>Someone must be using my psuedonym or you are an outright liar.
>(Probably the latter)

>Sorry, I don't play e-mail games.

>L.

  "Lillith@anon.com," all I can say is, you are one heck of a liar.
  You know -- as I do -- that it was none other than *YOU* who sent me
that original hate-filled anti-Christian email, as well as some
subsequent, less vicious ones.
  For someone who so easily slings the "hatemonger!" epithet at those
with whom she agrees, how does it feel to be exposed as a certified
anti-Christian hatemeister yourself?



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 19 12:51:46 PDT 1996
Article: 488113 of talk.politics.misc
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.current-events.usa,alt.impeach.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: The Conservative Draft Dodger And Lefty Veteran List -Please Amend!
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 15:49:13 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  Mr. Costello's point is, IMO, well-taken.
  However, of his short list of self-described conservatives and
Republicans who never served in the military, did any of those folks
ever "go around Oxford blasting the U.S. military," as Eldon
Griffiths, former British MP, revealed this past week in his "Open
letter to President Bill Clinton?
  Did any of them fervantly support the "Down with America" motion
that was presented to overseas college debaters?
  Did any of them ever, like Bill Clinton, rise to the position of
Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. armed forces -- and promptly send young
Americans all over the world for *HIS OWN* pet overseas military
adventures?
  Personally, I don't hold it against Clinton that he dodged the
Vietnam-era draft. 
  IMO, the U.S. has no right to REQUIRE young Americans to go overseas
and fight a war in which the U.S. was never attacked.

  What I *DO* hold against Clinton is that he:

a. actually helped ORGANIZE anti-U.S. demonstrartions while overseas  
    [he denies it, but his fellow-organizers say it's true 
    nonetheless];

b. actively supported approval of the "Down with America" debate 
    motion at Oxford University; 

c. "went around blasting the U.S. military" with his fellow-Rhodes 
    Scholars and Administration members Strobe Talbott and Robert 
    Reich; and

d. continues to lie about dodging the draft, even after evidence which

    contradicted this contention was revealed.  




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Oct 19 18:23:21 PDT 1996
Article: 101336 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.conspiracy
Subject: FWD: Jew who bashed Asian gets help from judge
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 03:37:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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>>A recent headline from The Orange County Register newspaper:

>>"NEW TRIAL ORDERED FOR MECHANIC FOUND GUILTY OF HATE CRIME

>>By John McDonald

>> "A jury that in April convicted a Los Alamitos mechanic of a hate
>>crime in a brutal attack by skinheads on an Asian-American man was
>>unaware of significant evidence -- including the fact that the alleged
>>skinhead is Jewish, a Superior Court judge said Friday in ordering a
>>new trial.
>>  " 'I'm very happy, relieved,' Chad Salsbury, 27, said as he left the
>>court.
>>[snip]
>>  "At Friday's hearing, Salsbury testified that he is a punk-rock fan
>>and has several tattoos -- including one of a revolver and another of
>>a pile of skulls -- and that he had a crew cut last summer.
>>  "Mark Sanjay David was beaten in August 1995 by a gang of skinheads
>>outside an Orange nightclub where the punk-rock band Fear was
>>appearing in concert. An eyewitness to the attack later ran up to
>>Salsbury and screamed, 'It was you, you . . . Nazi.'
>>[snip]
>>  "However, the judge noted that . . . the jury was never told of his
>>[the attacker's] religious background.
>>  "[Attorney] Robert Knox, who represented Salsbury at trial, said
>>[the judge] was right to order a new trial. He declined to comment on
>>why the jury was not told that Salsbury is Jewish.
>>[snip]
>>  "Deputy District Attorney Tom Glazier said he is confident Salsbury
>>will be convicted again."
>>  The convicted Jewish Asian-basher is now free on $100,000 bail.

>>  Can you imagine a judge ordering a new trial for a convicted
>>hate-criminal who attacked a Jew in part because the jury was never
>>told the perpetrator was Catholic/Protestant/Buddhist/Muslim etc.?
>>   In an instant, the ACLU and the major media would be demanding that
>>judge either be step down or be recalled for such a miscarriage of
>>justice!
>>  The incident described above regarding the Asian-basher Salsbury is
>>reminiscent of the well-publicized case a few years in which a young
>>Jewish-American man living in Singapore with his businessman-father
>>was convicted of spray-painting the cars of numerous Singaporan
>>citizens.
>>  A huge meda blitz was begun after authorities in that country
>>ordered the American vandal to be "caned" for his crime.
>>  In an unprecedented move, the President of the United States made an
>>official appeal to the President of Singapore not to punish the young
>>man as ordered -- a move which literally worsened the U.S.'s
>>diplomatic relations with that Asian nation based on the anticipated
>>punishment of a brazen convicted criminal.
>>  Just days before the "caning" was to be carried out, well-known CNN
>>interviewer Larry King -- speaking to the boy's father "for the full
>>hour" on his nightly talk show -- brought up the fact that one of the
>>young man's distant ancestors may have suffered in the Holocaust as a
>>possible reason to let the young man escape punishment.
>>  In recent years, back in the United States, the young man -- who
>>received *less* than the customary number of strokes when he was, in
>>fact, eventually "caned" -- was accused of physically abusing his
>>girlfriend, though no charges were ever filed, apparently.









From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 11:01:09 PDT 1996
Article: 101344 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 01:21:14 GMT
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Lillith  wrote:

>One other thing, 

>So, Chuck, are you a Yankee fan?

  Yup, but I wish the area was a little safer. That Grand Concourse
just'll never be the same. Same goies for Fordham Road. :-)

    -- Chuck



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 11:01:10 PDT 1996
Article: 101390 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.current-events.usa,alt.impeach.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Disturbing new Clinton allegation surfaces
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:17:13 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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SwopaTwo@aol.com (Swopa) wrote:

>In article <54976i$gg9@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>> SwopaTwo@aol.com (Swopa) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <547nq0$j1m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, 
>> >joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote: (excerpt)
>> 
>> 
>> >> >>  "Weren't you one of those characters, Bill? The Oxford Union doesn't
>> >>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> >>keep records, but didn't you and your fellow Rhodes scholars, Strobe
>> >>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> >>Talbott and Robert Reich, go around Oxford blasting the U.S. military,
>> >>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> >> >>of which you now are commander in chief?"
>> >>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> ><> 
>> >>   I think what bothers a lot of people is that he and his cohorts
>> >> denouncing the U.S. -- now part of his administration, ironically --
>> >> did so on foreign soil.   
[snip]
>>   First, your reference to "a" demonstration is simply not good
>> enough. It's not even close to being so.
[snip]
>>   *You*, OTOH, merely mention some entirely out-of-the-blue
>> "demonstration" which, you allege, Mr. Boskin attended. 
>>   Where and when was it held?
>>   What did Mr. Boskin say?

>You'll have to ask David Tell, who was in charge of opposition 
>research for the Bush '92 campaign.  According to former Bush
>staffer John Podhoretz in his book "Hell of a Ride" (pp. 185-186),
>Tell was researching the London demonstration that Clinton 
>supposedly helped organize, and he found a listing of speakers
>that included Boskin.

  Hey, I take your word for it. Thanks for the citation.
  However, the fact remains that Mr. Boskin is *NOT* running for
President/Commnder-in-Chief of the nation.
  It was very nice of Dole/Bush to hire Boskin even if they knew he
*did* speak at an anti-America rally in England. 
  However, the President of the United States/Commander-in-Chief ought
to be held to "a higher standard" than an economic analyst-- at least
that's what former Watergate Committee aide Hillary Rodham Clinton
says, ain't it? ;-)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 11:01:11 PDT 1996
Article: 101399 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Right Wing is the SDS of the 90s
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:31:09 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) wrote:

>area51@ix.netcom.com (RH) wrote:
>	
>>Reading Marx and reading Newt reveals the same lunatic attitude toward
>>social classes and the "inevitability" of historical change.  The
>>right wing is simply the SDS of the 90s; knee jerk ideologues with
>>counter-revolution as a creed.

>Ho ho ho ho!   Socialism has got to go!

>Max Kennedy

  HEY, HEY, HILLAREE!
  HOW MANY $1000's DIDJA INVEST TODAY?




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 11:01:11 PDT 1996
Article: 101420 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.current-events.usa,alt.impeach.clinton,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican
Subject: Re: Disturbing new Clinton allegation surfaces
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:21:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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area69@ix.netcom.com (manchurian) wrote:

>msb@netcom.com (Mark S. Bilk) wrote:

>>In article <546inn$mbo@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,  wrote:
>>>  [Sir Eldon Griffiths is president of the Orange County [California]
>>>World Affairs Council, a former member of the British House of
>>>Commons, and director of the Center for International business at
>>>Chapman University in California.]
>>>
>>>"An open letter to President Bill Clinton"
>>>By Eldon Griffiths
>>>
>>>Dear Mr. President:
>>>[snip]
>>>  "Allow me, therefore, to recall the first -- and only -- occasion
>>>when we've laid eyes on one another. You were a student at Oxford. I
>>>was a British M.P. Richard Nixon was in the White House and the Oxford
>>>Union Debating Society had put down a motion that Britain should break
>>>with America over U.S. involvement in Vietnam. Nixon sent his
>>>secretary of state, Bill Rogers, to speak against that motion. I was
>>>invited to support him, which, as one of the strongest supporters of
>>>the United States in the British Parliament, I very gladly did (though
>>>it cost me among my constituents). In the event, we won the argument
>>>against two socialists who spoke in favor of the "Down with America"
>>>motion; but the most difficult task Bill Rogers and I had during the
>>>debate was to face down those whose hostility to their own country's
>>>policies pursuaded a lot of Brits to vote for the break with America.
>>>  "Weren't you one of those characters, Bill? The Oxford Union doesn't
>>>keep records, but didn't you and your fellow Rhodes scholars, Strobe
>>>Talbott and Robert Reich, go around Oxford blasting the U.S. military,
>>>of which you now are commander in chief?"

>>The U.S. war against Vietnam was totally immoral.  It was
>>fought against a government which had overwhelming popular
>>support; even Eisenhower acknowledged that. *
>>Bill Clinton and his friends (and millions of other Ameri-
>>cans) were very justified in opposing U.S. military actions
>>in Vietnam.  
[snip]

>The original post, and I dont believe the sub poster gets the point,
>is simply that Clinton was a traitor against the American military. No
>patriotism, no plan to defend America with a military..It's that
>simple..

  Thanks, "manchurian."
   You are my "candidate" for Intelligent Internet Poster of the Day.
:-)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 14:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 75948 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Aluminum foil contains pork? [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 19:15:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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alec@ gryn.org   (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>In <549dp4$qtl@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) writes:
>>alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>>Oh yes.   Having to pay extra for kosher tin-foil is cost-effective for everybody!

>Yes - a whole zero dollars and zero cents.

  Well,  I suppose that, if/when the private rabbinical organizations
who do the actual kosher "certifications" EVER STOP CHARGING companies
for their religious services, then the added price tagged on to these
products will, in fact, be "zero dollars and zero cents."
  However, if the rabbis are charging (millions of dollars annually)
for their religious services, then the consumer is clearly going to
wind up paying higher prices atthe market. 
  Even for the many non-food items, such as tin foil, that are
nowadays, incredibly, certified "kosher." 
  Grynspan, of course, is -- or pretends to be -- totally oblivious to
this fact but it's precisely attitudes such as his which breed
*genuine* anti-semitism . . .  which is tragic, IMO.
  Likewise, if enough Christians went around, like Grynspan, making
the ridiculous argument that having companies pay their ministers to
"certify" products didn't increase prices, that, too, would engender
hostility and resentment.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 14:31:31 PDT 1996
Article: 101573 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:41:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Lillith  wrote:

>Are you referring to the Grand Concourse in Penn Station?

>Fordham Road stop in the LIRR?

>I know them well.

>L.

  We really oughta get together for a "slice," followed, perhaps, by a
frank at Nathan's (hold the sauerkraut, load upon the potato salad
and/or sauteed onions). :-)
  (Is Nathan's even still around any longer?)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 14:31:32 PDT 1996
Article: 101582 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.webspan.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 17:51:38 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  Apparently someone has somehow appended some totally-irrelevant
newsgroups to the original distribution list of this thread . . . but
with a twist: strangely, none of them -- with the exception of
alt.disney.criticism -- appears in the distribution list for this, my
followup (i.e. the only one from the list below which *was* originally
included is the alt.disney.criticism ng.)
  Otherwise I haven't the foggiest idea where schwartz's list of ng's
came from. Of course,I'm assuming he's not making the whole thing
about the "spamming newsgroups" up.

ron.schwarz[at]nethawk.com (Delete spam-buster ([at]) to reply) wrote:

>On 19 Oct 1996 04:45:25 GMT, bbwalker@fox.nstn.ca (bbwalker) wrote:

>>			so there
>>				Renee

>[bulk of loooong newsreader INI file deleted]

>>[G: rec.aviation.military]
>>SortOption=460
>>[G: alt.fan.monty-python.silliness]
>>SortOption=460
>>[G: alt.tv.law-and-order]
>>SortOption=460
>>[G: alt.tv.kids-in-hall]
>>SortOption=460
>>[G: alt.teens.poetry.and.stuff]
>>SortOption=460
>>[G: alt.food.sushi]
>>SortOption=460
>>[G: alt.disney.criticism]
>>SortOption=460
>>[G: alt.personals.teen]

>Hmmmm.... 

>Can we say "no comment"?


>>SortOption=460
>>[G: hfx.forsale]
>>SortOption=460


>"so there" indeed, "Renee".






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 14:31:33 PDT 1996
Article: 101600 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,soc.activism,alt.christnet,alt.activism.d,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: What Joebuck is REALLY all about.
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:59:55 GMT
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Roberta  wrote:

>Dahling-

>Nathan's is still out in Coney Island but the last time I checked was
>quite a few years ago - thoughI do miss the over done french fries.

>MMMMMMMMM, cholesteral - great for the heart!

>L.

  Hmmmm . . . I was wondering if the Times-Square-area "Nathan's
Famous" was still in biz, aktchally . . . see, me and Ratzo used to
dine there, now and then, in the old days . . .
  BTW, hon, can ya tell me how to get to the Statue of Liberty? ;-) 

        -- Joe Buck 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 23:37:08 PDT 1996
Article: 76015 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.webspan.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Aluminum foil contains pork? [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month 4)]
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 02:21:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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lness@indiana.edu (Lester John Ness) wrote:

>	The US is 1000 times better than it was 50 years ago.  A small
>minority has fewer privileges than 50 years ago, but is still well-off.

>-- 
>Lester Ness	lness@indiana.edu

  You're a kook.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 20 23:37:09 PDT 1996
Article: 76033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,misc.politics.usa,talk.politics.usa,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: FWD: More ADL - More Words II
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 05:21:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <54f1pe$aqm@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <326447e5.831564@199.0.216.204> <53u95b$925@is05.micron.net>
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kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>The ADL whines about the eroding separation of Church and State yet:

>1)  U.S. citizens are forced to pay Jewish kosher food tax;
>2)  U.S. citizens are forced to subsidize the Jewish State to the tune of several BILLION
>dollars every year.

>It must be nice to have it both ways like Jews do.  
[snip]




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 21 07:02:10 PDT 1996
Article: 76038 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.libertarianism
Subject: Re: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 05:45:09 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <54f369$1qa@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <32708da3.10984890@199.0.216.204>  <32638254.5703@ccnis.net> <32641DCB.341B@nbnet.nb.ca> <326430DF.215B@ccnis.net>
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"Annie Alpert, OFB"  wrote:

> I lost interest in Columbus as a hero, though, when I found out he brought
>Carribeans back to Spain as slaves!

  Well, nowadays -- thanks largely to liberal policies -- over half of
[Carribean] Puerto Rico is on food stamps (the figure is likely even
higher for Puerto Ricans in New York City), U.S. troops must risk
their lives in [Carribean] cesspool Haiti, and [Carribean] Cuba is
under totalitarian communist rule.
  But let's knock Columbus, folks, for something he didn't even do!



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 21 07:02:10 PDT 1996
Article: 76039 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 05:51:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

>Columbus did have a Jew on his ship, but I don't know of anyone who claims
>Columbus himself was Jewish.
> 
>And even if he was, SO WHAT??! It would just show that Jewish men, like
>most men in general, don't know when to stop and ask directions.

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-0





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 21 07:02:11 PDT 1996
Article: 76041 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 05:37:29 GMT
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Given that he was Italian I tend to doubt they faced the Spanish Inquisition.

ROFL!



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 21 07:02:12 PDT 1996
Article: 76044 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.activism,misc.politics.usa,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.culture.intercultural,soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Jew who bashed Asian gets help from judge [repost]
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 06:07:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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>>>A recent headline from The Orange County Register newspaper:

>>>"NEW TRIAL ORDERED FOR MECHANIC FOUND GUILTY OF HATE CRIME

>>>By John McDonald

>>> "A jury that in April convicted a Los Alamitos mechanic of a hate
>>>crime in a brutal attack by skinheads on an Asian-American man was
>>>unaware of significant evidence -- including the fact that the alleged
>>>skinhead is Jewish, a Superior Court judge said Friday in ordering a
>>>new trial.
>>>  " 'I'm very happy, relieved,' Chad Salsbury, 27, said as he left the
>>>court.
>>>[snip]
>>>  "At Friday's hearing, Salsbury testified that he is a punk-rock fan
>>>and has several tattoos -- including one of a revolver and another of
>>>a pile of skulls -- and that he had a crew cut last summer.
>>>  "Mark Sanjay David was beaten in August 1995 by a gang of skinheads
>>>outside an Orange nightclub where the punk-rock band Fear was
>>>appearing in concert. An eyewitness to the attack later ran up to
>>>Salsbury and screamed, 'It was you, you . . . Nazi.'
>>>[snip]
>>>  "However, the judge noted that . . . the jury was never told of his
>>>[the attacker's] religious background.
>>>  "[Attorney] Robert Knox, who represented Salsbury at trial, said
>>>[the judge] was right to order a new trial. He declined to comment on
>>>why the jury was not told that Salsbury is Jewish.
>>>[snip]
>>>  "Deputy District Attorney Tom Glazier said he is confident Salsbury
>>>will be convicted again."
>>>  The convicted Jewish Asian-basher is now free on $100,000 bail.





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 21 07:02:13 PDT 1996
Article: 76045 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Happy "Columbus Was a Jew" Day
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 05:47:53 GMT
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DKaren@holohugger.com (The Prime Holohugger) wrote:

>	Yet we have discovered in the last decade that all famous people in history
>were black, female and jewish.  

Love it!

>	But we must remember that if Columbus was in fact jewish that every other
>exposition of Columbus applies to the jewish Columbus.

  Good point.






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 21 07:34:32 PDT 1996
Article: 101723 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Invent A Rumor
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 02:26:16 GMT
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(Peej) wrote:

>Since the beginning of the political season, in fact since Clinton
>took office, rumors have abounded from the spin doctors growing more
>and more bizarre as time progresses.  

  Look, when these alleged "rumors" result in convictions in courts of
law -- as they've already done, and will do to a much greater extent
post-election -- I'd hardly continue characterizing them as "rumors."
  If they still seem like "rumors" to some people I attribute the
reason to the fact that the Liberal Establishment Media has
essentially suppressed their factual basis.
  "Watergate" would have remained merely a "rumor" unless it had not
been thoroughly investigated -- which I'm glad it was. 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 21 07:49:49 PDT 1996
Article: 489204 of talk.politics.misc
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.perot,talk.religion.misc,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.europe,alt.activism,soc.culture.african.american,alt.politics.greens,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.elections,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Total Israel theft from the U.S 1948-1996
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 04:02:22 GMT
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  This is only part of the story.
  The United States has been hurt tremendously in other,
equally-significant ways due to its support of the land-stealing
Israel government.
  For example, the 1970s oil/gas shortages hurt America's economy
immeasurably, while literally leaving millions of Americans "out in
the cold."
  Americans have become the target of terrorists at home and abroad
due to their government's support of the criminal Israeli government.
  American national security has been tremendously damaged -- so says
former defense department Secretary Weinberger -- when Jewish-American
spy Jonathan Pollard, working for the U.S. Navy as a civilian analyst
(what, you actually expected him to PUT ON A UNIFORM?) committed
espionage against the U.S. for Israel. 
  There are undoubtedly many, many other Israeli spies such as Pollard
in important intelligence-related positions in the U.S. government
even as I write this.
  I truly think we should heed the words of The Father of Our Country,
George Washington:

          "The nation which indulges towards another an habitual

            hatred or an habitual fondness, is in some degree a 
            slave . . . Avoid entangling alliances with other nations 
            . . ."

Hantar@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Total U.S. Aid To Israel, 1948-1996

>Economic Support Funds (ESF)
>	Loan     $1,517,000,000
>	Grants   $23,000,000,000
>	Other

>Jewish Refugee Resettlement Grant   $868,900,0000
>Food for peace program
>	Loans    $588,500,000
>	Grants   $94,100,000

>Export-Import Bank Loan             $1,219,000,000 
>American Schools & Hospitals          $110,000,000
>Other Unspecified Loans                $17,000,000

>Other Grants ( desalinization Plant and Regional
>Cooperative development aid)          $104,500,000
>Total ESF and Related Loans         $3,342,000,000
>Total ESF and Related Grants       $24,300,000,000

>Foreign Miliatry Sales  (FMS)
>FMS Loans                          $11,213,000,000
>FMS Grants                         $29.065,000,000

>Arrow Missile and Related Programs    $631,200,000
>Drawdown Authority from Western Europe$775,000,000
>U.S. Military Stores in Israel  (for Israelís use in 
>an emergency                          $400,000,000
>Toatl FMS and Related Loans         $11,213,000,000
>Total FMS and Related Grants        $30,871,000,000

>Loan Guarantees
>U.S. Government-Guaranteed Housing Loans  $8,000,000,000

>Totals
>U.S.ESF Loans ( Related expenditures)       $3.342 billion
>U.S.ESF Grants (Related  expenditures)       $24.3 billion
>U.S.EMS Loans                             $11.213 billiion
>U.S.FMS Grants (and related expenditures)  $30.871 billion
>Loan Guarantees                                 $8 billion
>Total U.S. Loans to Israel (Including Loan Guarantee)      $22.555 
>billion
>Toatl U.S. Grants to Israel
>	
>(Including Related Military Expenditures)                   $55.171 
>billion

>Total U.S. Aid To Zionist State (FY 1945 Through Fy 1996)   $77.726 
>billion

>This money is taking from the mouth of the poor in th United States and 
>given so they can kill and murder innocent Arab children. This money 
>belong to the American TAX payers. This money belong to the old and needy 
>in the United States. Is this the price of a friendship.  This is the 
>price of my freedom?. Is this what it take to have high unemployemnt? 
>What pretex should I exercise to my kids about our Tax American dollars 
>that goes to murder others in the name of some mystical promise that God 
>has made. It is you as an American citizen must rise to the occassion and 
>tell our Congress and Senate, enough is enough. It is time to tell the 
>President of this Great country, I am tired of giving my money away while 
>American can't even offored the basic medical need, the basic nutrition 
>for me and my kids.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 22 07:41:02 PDT 1996
Article: 76271 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: U.L. tax on gentiles safty! (was Re: Aluminum foil contains pork?)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:58:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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carol1@apple.com (Andrew) wrote:

>In article <549dp4$qtl@is05.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net wrote:

>> alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>> 
>> >The costs of kosher meat are borne by the buyers - Jews.
>> 
>> ALL consumers are forced to foot the bill liar.


>What about U.L. listings of items?  Why should I pay for
>these items to be 'safety' tested?  I should be able to
>decide for myself if I want my lamps 'tested'.  This is
>a TAX imposed on us by the evil people amongst us who
>want us to pay for their safety agenda.  Do you know how
>much it costs to be 'tested'?  It can cost thousands of
>dollars for only a few days work.  Just so that symbol
>"U.L" can appear on products so a small minority can
>buy satisfy their elders dictates.

  Let me explain where your argument is flawed: The Underwriters
Laboratories actually tests products for safety and gives the ones
that pass permission to display its trademark, the "UL" symbol.
  Moreover, the UL mark is something which, obviously, is a sign that
the product has been found safe for general consumer use -- something
*ALL* consumers benefit from, regardless of race or religion. 
 OTOH, the Jewish rabbis who as part of this racket charge millions of
dollars annually to let food -- and now, apparently, non-food (e.g.
aluminum foil) companies -- use their kosher-certification symbols
are:

a. doing something -- i.e. certifying food, tin foil and
who-knows-what-else -- as having been produced under sanitary
conditions, which the companies *ALREADY* ensure is the case; why pay
the officials of a particular religion, of all things -- i.e. Jewish
rabbis -- millions of dollars yearly to visit a food/aluminum foil
factory for a few hours a couple of times a year to look through the
companies' books -- yup, they apparently do *that*, too, as part of
their "kosher inspection"! -- to "guarantee" the cleanliness of the
facility when the company ALREADY has its own employees to do the job,
not to mention the government health inspectors who visit factories to
ensure the cleanliness of the facilities?; and

b. doing something (certifying products as "kosher") which is truly
only demanded by a MINISCULE fraction of Jews themselves. I mean, I
don't think I've EVER known an American Jew who "Kept kosher" except
for, say, Passover. 
  Basically it's the really religious Jews (e.g. the Hassidim)-- a
TINY, TINY % of the general Jewish polulation (-1% of the U.S.
population) -- who demand kosher-only products.
   Can you imagine the outcry of the ACLU and Jews across the nation
if, for example, a TINY, TINY % of Christians -- the Branch Davidians
or Jehovah Witnesses, for example -- demanded that mass-market
consumer companies allow their ministers in the factories to "ensure"
that the products produced therein meet their religious requirements?
They'd be -- as they damn well ought to be -- laughed out of the place
by the companies' officials. 
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 22 07:41:03 PDT 1996
Article: 76273 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: Aluminum foil contains pork? [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month 4)]
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:40:42 GMT
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rstanton@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote:


>           Also... i may be wrong, but i thought the "U" represented the
>  Underwriter's Laboratory, who in some fashion certify the safety of a
>  product. Does anyone know about this?

  Another consumer who doesn't even realize his food is more expensive
because it contains the "U" to indicate some rabbi "certified" it as
"kosher." 
  OTOH, the "UL" mark on a product -- which indicates it's passed the
safety tests of Underwriters Laboratories -- actually *DOES* provide
something worthwhile to consumers of ALL religious/racial pursuasions
 . . unlike the "U" or "K" for "kosher," which even most Jews (who,
in the U.S., are essentially secular in outlook anyway) don't look
for.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 22 08:35:04 PDT 1996
Article: 102025 of alt.conspiracy
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Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,soc.libertarianism,alt.libertarianism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: US teens now REQUIRED to do 'charity'
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 03:28:25 GMT
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Eric Engelmann  wrote:

>Forced servitude is slavery. A *very* sad day for America, and probably
>just the beginning. If you can *force* students to involuntary servitude
>(while, ironically, referring to it as "volunteer" work), why not bestow
>these benefits on *EVERYONE*? The government could *force* everyone to
>do
>"government approved" volunteer service and create paradise on Earth.

>We could even have forced "volunteer" labor camps for people who have
>some insane idea that this is not Constitutional.

  Absolutely.
  But, see, thoughtful and truly patriotic considerations such as
those you mentioned above are looked upon as without merit by people
such as the politically-correct Clintonistas and their ilk who
successfully passed this new
"do-'bureaucratically-approved-charity-or-don't-get-a-diploma" policy.
  Moreover, as the person who made the original post in this thread, I
would like to suggest that the Clinton/Democrat-style "it takes a
village" mentality is PRECISELY the kind of rationale offered by
people such as Pol Pot when his communist forces evacuated the
Cambodian capital in the 1970s and made everyone work in the fields .
 . later known as the "killing fields."
  Ditto the Stalinist forced collectivization of the Russian farmers'
lands during the 1930s -- which resulted in yet another Holocaust, one
actually larger, in sheer numbers, than the Holocaust so tragically
perpetrated by the Nazis during WWII.
  "It takes a village" seems to have been the attitude of the school
district bureaucrats who imposed that "mandatory,
bureaucratically-approved charity" policy which resulted in the young
man -- just an "angry white male" to his politically-correct school
administrators -- not receiving the high school diploma he worked four
years to earn.
   I'm sure the murderous statists Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot would
have sided with the school district bureaucrats, not the poor young
man nor the U.S. Constitution, on this issue, sadly.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 22 08:35:05 PDT 1996
Article: 102055 of alt.conspiracy
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Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy
Subject: FWD: 12,000 U.S. Gulf War dead?
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:22:32 GMT
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tony9596@pipeline.com(Listen-Up) wrote:

>I found this web page by an Army nurse, Captain Joyce Riley. She claims
>that Biological and Chemical weapons were used on U.S. troops and that the
>government is covering up the fact that 12,000 U.S. troops have died from
>"Gulf War Syndrome". She also claims to have information that the U.S.
>government manufactured the AIDS virus. 
> 
>Thought many of you might be interested in this site. 
> 
>www.all-natural.com/riley.html 
> 
> 
>Tony




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 22 08:46:21 PDT 1996
Article: 489866 of talk.politics.misc
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Subject: Re: Total Egypt theft from the U.S
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:16:29 GMT
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msimon@rworld.com (M Simon) wrote:

>Any body know?

  Yup: it's six cents for every $100.37 that Israel steals from the
U.S. taxpayers every year. :-) 




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 22 09:37:09 PDT 1996
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Subject: Re: Aluminum foil contains pork? [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month 4)]
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Stinking liberal.
>Bill

  Hey, your honesty is appreciated.
  One hopes that more "stinking liberals" such as yourself admit as
much and start accepting some -- the majority, in fact -- of the
responsibilty for the manifest and precipitous decline of the United
States. 
  Could you likewise tell a few of your fellow "stinking liberals" to
stop being in such denial about the horrors their policies have sown
in the U.S. for the past 50 years or so?



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 22 12:11:46 PDT 1996
Article: 76369 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: U.L. tax on gentiles safty! (was Re: Aluminum foil contains pork?)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 04:08:47 GMT
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kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>The rest of the population is made to foot the bill for Jewish custom while Jews are a
>small minority.   It is outrageous.  And they have LAWS to enforce that the Jewish custom
>is observed, municipal kosher food inspection laws.  Yet Jews whine about Church and State
>separation when it suits THEM.   More Jewish hypocrisy.  

>Kurt Stele

  Good point. 
  I'd oppose it if the officials of *any* religion -- even a religion
to which MORE THAN 1% of the general consumer population belonged --
demanded that *THEY* be paid good money (we're talking MANY million$
annually, folks) to "inspect" food, tin foil etc. to "make sure it's
kosher/Christ-friendly/Allah-simpatico/Jehova-jovial, whatever.
  Believe me, I consider myself to be a FRIEND of the Jews. It's the
chutzpah of some of them in demanding that ALL consumers pay extra for
something which only a tiny fraction of even the Jews themselves
require (i.e. kosher certification) that, I think, truly breeds real
anti-semitism in some people.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 22 23:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 33832 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: U.S. Gives Israel BILLIONS every year from taxpayer-$$$$
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 05:33:43 GMT
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>Kurt Stele wrote:
>[..]
>> 
>> Andrew Mathis won't give the figure of U.S. aid to Israel because he knows the figure adds
>> up to BILLIONS every year.
>> 
>> "Yes sir, Mr. Jew.  You would like yet another BILLION from US tax-dollars?  By all means,
>> Mr. Jew sir, at once."

>Simple Question:  Has US aid to Israel gone up or down
>in recent years?

  Up, up and away . . . !
  In fact, recall that Pat "ANTISEMITE!"[tm] Buchanan correctly
predicted that, after the Persian Gulf War -- in which U.S. troops
were exposed to bio-chemical weapons -- was over, Israel would DEMAND
financial compensation for allowing young Americans to fight inits
place.
  (Only recently, in fact has the U.S. government -- in the face of
incontravertible evidence -- admitted that Ameican troops in desert
Storm *were*, in fact, exposed to bio-chemical weapons. The media
tried its best to hush this charge up for a long time, till it could
do so no longer.)
  Some racket, huh? 

*******************************************************
Read The SPOTLIGHT, America's most INTERESTING weekly newspaper.
To subscribe: call toll-free 1 800 522-6292 [U.S. only]



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 23 07:44:17 PDT 1996
Article: 76484 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: Aluminum foil contains pork? [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 02:30:10 GMT
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hkilpatr@osf1.gmu.edu (HENRY E. KILPATRICK JR.) wrote:

>Kurt Stele (kurtstel@micron.net) wrote:
>: alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>: >The costs of kosher meat are borne by the buyers - Jews.

>: ALL consumers are forced to foot the bill liar.

>Horse manure.  Consumers can buy what they want. 
> If you eat only pork, you'll never pay for a kosher inspection.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  Oh, GOOD COMEBACK! (not!]




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Oct 23 07:44:17 PDT 1996
Article: 76495 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: Aluminum foil contains pork?
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hkilpatr@osf1.gmu.edu (HENRY E. KILPATRICK JR.) wrote:

>If adding the kosher certification increases the market for a company's
>products, which it obviously does, the costs are likely to be less due to
>economies of scale and scope. 

  That reminds me of the dolts who, sharing your mindset, said, after
Hurricane Andrew devastated much of Florida a few years ago, "Well, at
least it'll [the storm] create lots of jobs!"
  Based on THAT imbecilic thinking, Floridians should wish for
*weekly* major hurricanes -- after all, they'll be LOTS of work for
everyone after they hit! :-)
  And going by your genuinely ignorant illogic, Junior, members of all
racial/religious groups should plead with their leaders/ministers to
demand  that *they*, too, be paid to "certify" consumer items -- after
all, as you claim above, "the costs will be likely to be less due to
economies of scale and scope"! 
  ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-0




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 24 09:35:16 PDT 1996
Article: 102665 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy
Subject: Re: FWD: 12,000 U.S. Gulf War dead?
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 02:18:19 GMT
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carol1@apple.com (Andrew) wrote:

>Wow!!!!  12,000 troops dead and no one notices.  What are the
>odds.  Since offically only about 250 people died and their
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>names were published [snip]

>Boy, we sure are good at covering up things.  Of course, now that
>Elvis is in hiding he can spend more time helping our government
>carry out these clever plots!!!

  How interesting: since Vietnam was a *politically-INcorrect* war,
all those allegations about Agent Orange killing/maiming U.S. troops
received LOADS of publicity in the liberal media.
  Which I'm happy about.
  OTOH, since the Persian Gulf War was a very "PC" war -- I mean, just
look at all the former "doves" (e.g. Stephen Solarz, Mel Levine, et
al) who strongly supported it -- any information that an actual Army
OFFICER who works in the medical field has about a possible government
cover-up is considered "silly conspiracy nonsense," i.e. on the level
of Elvis-sightings.
  "Andrew": just another nice Jewish boy/drum-beater for "goy"-fought
overseas military adventures to save Israel's ass?
  Talk about brazen hypocrisy.
  




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 24 09:35:17 PDT 1996
Article: 102754 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: Fascist Takeover of U.S. -- Militia, Rex 84, Oliver North, Republicans (1)
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ranchjp@dsmnet.com (Jerry Ranch) wrote:

>FASCISM is a type of Socialism, in terms of economic system, whereby
>the government owns and operates all business.  So, FASCISM is a
>leftist economic system.  Republicans want govt out of business
>affairs (minimum wage, etc)

>Similarly, FASCISM generally is totalitarian, and is thereby a leftist
>POLITICAL SYSTEM as well through which BIG GOVERNMENT runs everything.
>(Republicans want governemtn out of your life, and want the bill of
>rights to apply to all)

>How you people associate FASCISM with republicans, conservatives,
>Limbaugh, Reagan, GOD, and Ollie North mystify me.  If anything Bill
>Clintons idea of a government program for eveything is closer to
>Fascism that anything the Republicans want. 
 I think the Dems attack
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the Repubs for what the Dems are guilty of.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  So true. The psychologists call it "projection," I believe.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Oct 25 09:00:59 PDT 1996
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kamamer@zap.io.org (karl mamer) wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com writes:
>> hkilpatr@osf1.gmu.edu (HENRY E. KILPATRICK JR.) wrote:
>> 
>> >If adding the kosher certification increases the market for a company's
>> >products, which it obviously does, the costs are likely to be less due to
>> >economies of scale and scope. 
>> 
>>   That reminds me of the dolts who, sharing your mindset, said, after
>> Hurricane Andrew devastated much of Florida a few years ago, "Well, at
>> least it'll [the storm] create lots of jobs!"
>>   Based on THAT imbecilic thinking, Floridians should wish for
>> *weekly* major hurricanes -- after all, they'll be LOTS of work for
>> everyone after they hit! :-)
>>   And going by your genuinely ignorant illogic, Junior, members of all
>> racial/religious groups should plead with their leaders/ministers to
>> demand  that *they*, too, be paid to "certify" consumer items -- after
>> all, as you claim above, "the costs will be likely to be less due to
>> economies of scale and scope"! 
>>   ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-0

>Again, Joebuck ignores economic facts and tosses out a red herring.
>Demonstrating for all that 1) he simply can't put together
>a logical argument 2) can't argue against the economies of
>scale argument.

>Let's review, Joebuck.

>1) It has been demonstrated to you that, in the case of kosher
>Planters peanuts, kosher labelling added, perhaps, .0002 cents per 
>pound. The figure was arrived at by a manager of peanut factory.
             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Actually, if you recall, the purportedly-retired "manager of a
peanut factory" turned out to be one David Braun -- a young college
student at the U of Washington.
  He claimed to be a retired Planters manager: NOT TRUE.
  He claimed not to be Jewish: NOT TRUE.
  Based on the above, I'll let the other readers of his thread decide
if they think I should accept Mr. Braun's self-serving
arguments/information -- all based, it turns out, on falsehoods.

>2) It has been demonstrated to you that there are many
>products that are cheaper with kosher labels than
>similar products without.

  This is undoubtedly true. See, we agree!
  However -- and as an intelligent person you *must* realize -- this
does not in the least mean that kosher "certification" doesn't add
measureable costs to food (and, it appears, tin foil) prices.
  There may very well be OTHER reasons why a particular
kosher-certified product may, in rare instances, be less-expensive
than the non-kosher-certified variety. 
  For example, perhaps the kosher-certified variety was manufactured
overseas under slave-labor conditions. It might've actually been even
LESS expensive had it not been certified as "kosher."

> For example, I bought a 2 l
>bottle of pop for 79 cents with kosher labelling.
>A similar bottle without the kosher labelling was 99 cents.

  Again, it undoubtedly would've been even even cheaper if it had not
been kosher-certified -- for a pretty hefty fee, I might add -- by one
of those profit-driven kosher-certification companies.

>3) You swore that Canadian economists estimated the average
>"goy" family paid an extra $300 a year because of
>Kosher labelling. You stated, in no uncertain terms,
>that you would produce the names of these economists.

  Although I never said, "in no uncertain terms, that I'd "produce the
names of these economists," I did say I'd *try* to get the references
at the library.
  However, I nonetheless admit that your point is well-taken, since I
haven't, in fact, come up with the references to back up the claim
that kosher certification costs the typical Canadian family about $300
per year. Thus, since I'm not able to support the claim with such
references, I hereby retract it.  
 [Now, would somebody hand me some paper towels? It's not easy wiping
all this egg off my face . . .]  





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 27 12:09:46 PST 1996
Article: 103877 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: 12,000 U.S. Gulf War dead?
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:34:46 GMT
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  I can tell you, *no* Israeli troops are suffering from this awful
Gulf War Syndrome as so many U.S. troops have and still are -- *they*
never had to go anywhere near the battlefield in that war, never even
had to put on their uniforms -- remember,  American troops did all
their fighting/dying/bio-chemical victimization FOR them.
  How wonderful it is to have such a helpful "ally" as Israel in the
Middle East!
  BTW, just as Pat Buchanan predicted, after the war was over Israel
DID, in fact, demand an extra multi-million-dollar handout from the
U.S. taxpayers for "allowing" the "goy" American troops to fight in
the place of its own troops.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 27 14:07:38 PST 1996
Article: 104145 of alt.conspiracy
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moulds@QueensU.CA (Gerald Moulds) wrote:

>	Golly.  And I remember being "forced" to do all kinds of stuff
>	I didn't want to do in high school. [snip]

  How much ya wanna bet that Mr. Moulds is an aging hippie who, during
his college days in the 1960s, ranted and raved about the "immorality"
of the government *REQUIRING* him to do "forced charity" in Vietnam?
  Now that he's approaching middle-age, he's oh-so-gung-ho about
forcing TODAY'S young men and women to do "forced charity" in order to
get their high school diplomas.
  What hypocrisy.
  You, Bill Clinton and your fellow 1960s turncoats oughta be ashamed
of yourselves -- though I'm not optimistic that you'll ever realize
it.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 27 14:32:27 PST 1996
Article: 77348 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: Aluminum foil contains pork? [was: Re: Two Questions for Charles (Month
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:50:33 GMT
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alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

>The rules for what must be kosher and how to make an item kosher
>could, with a few words changed to hide their origin, read like a
>guide to the prevention of the spread of contagious diseases.

   So, if this is the case, since food manufacturers in the United
States ALREADY follow the most stringent food sanitation procedures in

          *************
the world, why pay the *MINISTERS* (i.e. rabbis) of a particular
*RELIGION* (i.e. Judaism) to "inspect" and "certify" as "clean" what
the manufacturers produce?
  It's rather REDUNDANT -- not to mention costly -- to do so, no? 
  DUH!




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 28 08:11:25 PST 1996
Article: 104382 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: Joebuck can't argue
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 16:39:16 GMT
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kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>bdickus@netcom.com (Biggus Dickus) wrote:

>>If you actually believe that adding kosher certification to a product,
>>such as tin foil, will result in a 100% increase in sales you, Mr.
>>Kilpatrick are trying very hard to convince us that you are a moron,
>>and not without success.

>Mr. Kilpatrick is the perfect goy.  He'll even go out of his way to look stupid in order
>to defend Jewish special privileges.

>Kurt Stele

  I think he's engaged to Sr. Kathleen Paulina Roberta Joesepha
Mulhearn. :-0



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Oct 28 19:29:40 PST 1996
Article: 104537 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.perot,misc.politics.usa
Subject: Re: Oswald/Ferrie Photo
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:34:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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MGC  wrote:

>If Oswald and Ferrie having their photograph taken together means that
>they not only "knew" each other, but were involved in a conspiracy, then
>what is the significance of that picture of Rosalyn Carter taken with
>John Wayne Gacy?

  Recall she was *also* photographed with  Jim Jones, founder and
leader of the ill-fated People's Temple.
  Thus, she was literally photographed with two of the most notorious
mass murderers in U.S. history.
  At around the same time frame (late-1970s) that she was having photo
ops with actual mass murderers, Mrs. Carter was also criticizing
then-Soviet dissident/Gulag prisoner Alexander Solzhenitsin, who was
himself a victim of the Soviet mass-murder machine.
  Coincidence or conspiracy?




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct 29 19:11:00 PST 1996
Article: 104868 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,soc.rights.human,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.activism,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: 14 YEAR OLD GA HONOR STUDENT ARRESTED AT MCDONALD'S
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:52:02 GMT
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:

>      Since all the Politically Correct people say if I disagree with
>them I'm a racist, I am proud to call myself a racist.  But, as Joe
>Sobran pointed out, you should NEVER confuse the term "racist" with the
>term "jerk".  What you were dealing with was a group of run-in-the-mill
>officious jerks.  
>      They would have been just as happy to kick you around for being an
>"inbred white trash racist"  if you had been young and white and they
>felt like throwing their weight around.
>      As you travel around the world, you are going to find officious
>jerks are absolutely everywhere.  Only their excuses differ.
>      When I entered college at 16, I was worried about the future of my
>race.   Since I  am white, the officious jerks with their PhD's treated
>me like a hated minority group they chose to call "racist".   When the
>Thought Police on campus get after a young student with the label
>"racist", nobody, absolutely nobody has the courage to come to your
>defense.   
>       The jerks on campus call themselves Politically Correct
>Intellectuals, but they're exactly the same breed you ran into.
>       I got hurt by these jerks when I was young and impressionable,
>but I hope I have resisted those who urged me to get back at the college
>jerks by being mean to black people.  Don't let the jerks convert you to
>one of their own.

  Bob, that was beautifully stated.
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 31 07:04:25 PST 1996
Article: 105159 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.conspiracy
Subject: FWD: NATIONAL SECURITY DANGER IN FBI FILES (more...)
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 18:09:58 GMT
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softwar@us.net (Charles R. Smith) wrote:

>Security is an issue.  The Clinton White House has shown itself
>to incapable of handling security issues.  First, there is
>national information security.  The mishandling of hundreds, if
>not thousands, of TOP SECRET FBI files by the Clinton
>administration is a national security issue.  For example, one
>of those illegally obtained files is that of Robert Gates,
>former Director of the CIA.  That file alone would easily fetch
>a million dollars on the black markets in Berlin, Tehran, and
>Moscow.  That file and many others just like it were handled by
>White House Interns who had never been cleared, and left alone
>in a room with a copy machine.  That file was one of many found
>on Mr. Marceca's PC which he had taken from the Defense Dept.
>years before, sitting in his house, waiting to be stolen, lost
>or sold.  Please note - our suddent loss of CIA operations in Iraq at
>great expense of lives and money.  UNSECURE and DANGEROUS.

>The Marceca files are not the only problem here.  The recent
>resignation of Dick Morris was not over his alledged affair with
>a $200 per hour hooker.  In fact, the hooker, who also has
>pictures and video tapes, states that she was privy to top level
>phone calls with Mr. Morris and the President.  The information
>passed to the hooker by Mr. Morris gives a clear insight into
>White House day to day political operations as well as data
>about government agencies and programs.  It is also clearly
>indicative of the poor White House security.  For example, at
>one point, the madam claims to have been one of a handful of
>people who knew life had been discovered on Mars.  In addition,
>she had access to Presidential speechs before they were given.
>The value of pillow talk and macho images played out before a
>paid audience may be ranked by Mr. Morris and President Clinton
>as a breach of "political" security.  Yet, one has to wonder
>what other secrets slipped out from between the hotel bedsheets.
>Clearly not the kind of material a lady of the night should have
>access to.  The oldest of axioms applies here;  loose lips - sink
>ships.  UNSECURE and DANGEROUS.

>Then there is the computer security.   The recent hack of the
>Dept. of Justice Web site is an example of how ineffective the
>Clinton computer security policy is.  The picture of Adolph
>Hitler, titled "Janet Reno", was a particular jibe at the poor
>technical skills in our government.  In fact, A GAO report
>issued in May, 1996, described the state of government computer
>security in not too glowing details.  It is the Defense
>Department, of all agencies that have suffered and continue to
>suffer hack attacks, that is of greatest concern.  They describe
>an agency facing over 250,000 hacker attemps in 1995 alone.  GAO
>and DISA estimated that over 65% of those hacks were successful.
>The most disturbing event took place last December, 1995, when a
>16 year old hacker invaded the USAF Rome Air Force Base
>computer.  This enterprising youth locked out the Air Force,
>sucked off classified details for air tasking orders (what bombs
>fall when), and connected the USAF computer to Chile, Columbian,
>Latvia and **Korea.  Please note ** the Korean site was also a
>nuclear energy research lab.  This caused much panic at the FBI
>and the USAF because, at first, they did not know if the Korean
>lab was south or north of the parallel.  This scenario could
>have easily turned into World War.  All the hacker had to do was
>attack the North Korean atomic energy computer and leave
>evidence pointing back to Rome USAF New York.  The North Koreans
>are rather touchy about their nukes and putting them in a "use
>it or loose it" scenario will make them trigger happy.  In the
>end, the nuclear site turned out be in South Korea.  Still,
>don't rest easy.  The hacker was arrested but his accomplice in
>Latvia got away with all the downloaded information.  UNSECURE
>and DANGEROUS.

>Then there is physical security.  First and foremost, the case
>of FBI agent Gary Harlow is most odd.  Gary Harlow was assigned
>to the Clinton White House to perform security reviews.  Last
>December, 1995, Agent Harlow was arrested for stealing over
>100,000 rounds of ammunition, fully automatic weapons, plastic
>explosives, hand grenades, and night vision gear from the FBI.
>No one knew he was so well armed until he allegedly punched his
>wife in the face, sending her to the hospital.  He was arrested
>by Police who found him driving around the suburbs, armed with
>nearly a dozen fully automatic weapons, looking for his wife.
>Later, after Harlow was senteneced to six months in jail, it was
>revealed that Harlow also faked security reviews for the Clinton
>White House.  In fact, he was working for the White House when
>he took most of this firepower.  These reviews are false and
>many of the folks using them,  who came and went, were never
>properly cleared.  Yet, Harlow only got six months on charges
>that should have brought years in jail.  It seems that someone
>arranged a sweetheart plea bargain, which kept the Clinton White
>House out of the trial, and the newspapers.  How Harlow could
>steal enough firepower to rival a small country without getting
>caught is beyond me and the FBI.  No FBI procedures nor any
>review of FBI security has taken place as a result of Gary
>Harlow.  It would seem that the FBI cannot track it's own
>bullets.  It also seems they really don't care if a madman
>cruises neighborhoods armed with stolen government firepower.
>UNSECURE and DANGEROUS.

>Another government security incident is the recent fine by the
>NRC against NIH for storing radioactive materials in open
>lockers, refrigerators and in unsecure areas.  This fine comes
>on the heels of last summer's poisoning of 26 people at the NIH
>labs in Bethesda, Maryland,  by NIH radioactive isotopes.  This
>incident is still being investigated by the FBI because it
>appears the poisoning was intentional.  Many of the workers who
>were poisoned unknowningly consumed the deadly isotopes in their
>lunch and drinks.  Here is an example where real deadly
>materials were made available in an unsecure fashion by our
>government.  The 26 who were poisoned are paying the price of
>such poor security.  They will face the same slow and agonizing
>death suffered by the Chernoybl victims.  However, it could have
>been 26,000 or many more.  The fact that NIH was storing such
>vile chemicals with no more than a unlocked door between it and
>disaster is chilling.  UNSECURE and DANGEROUS.

>Each of these incidents illuminates the poor security given to
>America by the Clinton Administration.  Any one of which could
>have started a war, killing thousand, perhaps millions.   In
>some cases the attackers not only had the information necessary
>but also the means to carry out an act of terror provided to
>them by the Clinton administration.  It is quite possible, in
>fact, more likely, that a terrorist would obtain both the
>information needed as well as the weapons, given willingly, from
>our own government.  The price of poor security is
>vulnerability.  The price of security is eternal vigilance.
>President Clinton has been asleep at the switch.  Bill Clinton
>is UNSECURE and DANGEROUS.

>1 if by land, 2 if by sea.  Paul Revere - encryption 1775

>Charles R. Smith
>SOFTWAR
>http://www.us.net/softwar

>Pcyphered signature:
>8DA19112C86CDB6C5152EE2E5D77E5530F42220CDF1BF6AAED73A4BF96068880
>65465C936E8D96FC36746733D411611500597265C236AD7B672A69BDB99108F8
>550242DEB0078AC80C511C024AA3BAC8B97D863C56FBB606A6B6537B285320AF
>E80B799414E7584954728427999C0B9A681309487EBF71B48A5BBCDA36C28B12
>55F7B8E6B0C6589FD94E379852F939C85E4354D0807440D6538A8E731E81E115
>A9D15CA14F39575E55BB560E7AE73B5ECF5DBA80C98D0E1695C2EA52AB5FB25B
>A668ECF35344F15808C0E8673758F50842B2AEC5916CCFBCE2182FB8E184F19A
>F83EFEFE6957B31C9A68D8ECB0D2D18E5F4B19E80096EB91E39243EDE777059A






From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Oct 31 07:04:26 PST 1996
Article: 105243 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,soc.rights.human,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.activism,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: 14 YEAR OLD GA HONOR STUDENT ARRESTED AT MCDONALD'S
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 02:46:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 23
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>>I am Shamine Bridgeforth, a Black, fourteen-year-old honor student at
>>McEachern High School in Powder Springs, Georgia, where I also live.  I
>>feel like I was a victim of police harrassment.

  As they say, "there are two sides to every story."
  However, if you really do feel you were the victim of police
harrassment, BY ALL MEANS, I URGE YOU TO PURSUE THE MATTER.
  Consult an attorney, by all means. 
  If the man really *DID* harrass you, he certainly ought to be
disciplined. There are few things I hate more than people overstepping
their authority and abusing people.
  If he's *NOT* guilty of what you claim, you owe him an apology for
smearing his name on the Internet.
  You may wanna commisserate with a fellow Georgian, a
European-American male -- and, thus, a pc-unapproved person -- by the
name of Richard Jewell who, though he actually performed a HEROIC ACT
and saved perhaps scores of lives at last summer's Olympics when he
alerted police of a bomb, was all but convicted in the Liberal
Establishment Media.
  It's not fun being falsely-accused, is it? At least you two fellow
Georgians are close enough, geographically, to maybe get together by
phone and swap experiences.




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