The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/nyms/charles/1996/joebuck.0996


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 09:39:36 PDT 1996
Article: 83793 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.immigration,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: An example of an INS conspiracy to stack the deck?
Date: 1 Sep 1996 04:15:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <50b2lu$5r2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <32250b95.18754699@news.redshift.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 31 11:15:58 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:83793 alt.politics.usa.republican:269125 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:367635 alt.politics.perot:54082

  Interesting information. And disturbing.
  Especially the possibility, based on the corespondent's msg below,
that non-Hispanic LEGAL IMMIGRANTS may be unfairly targeted/hassled by
U.S. Customs agents when they enter the country LEGALLY, OPENLY, at an
AIRPORT, freely submitting to CUSTOMS inspections -- unlike the
millions upon millions of Hispanic illegal aliens who, entering the
U.S. literally by the THOUSANDS nightly (that's right!) don't have to
bother with such annoying Customs technicalities. 
  IMO, the Customs agents involved in harrassing this woman and feeding
her incorrect information -- leading to her temporary deportation, yet
-- should be disciplined.

In <32250b95.18754699@news.redshift.com> mikew@redshift.com (Trasher)
writes: 
>
>I met a woman while in Ireland. Later, she came to the U.S. as a
>visitor. We married. She went back to Ireland briefly. When she
>returned, Customs detained her at the airport because her Visa had her
>maiden name, while on her entry paperwork she had put her new, married
>name.
>
>Looking for entry fraud, they detained her and questioned both her and
>me. During the proceeding, a minor verbal squirmish broke out among
>the Customs folk, one official claiming that my Irish wife was being
>favored by another official because she was *not* Hispanic. This is
>only tangentially interesting.
>
>My new wife was conditionally allowed into the country at San
>Francisco. Later, as we were directed, we met with INS officials in
>San Francisco. A black female representative informed us that my wife
>HAD to leave the U.S. by a certain date. It was black and white. She
>could re-enter later, but she HAD to leave by a certain date.
>
>The punchline: In fact, my wife, who left the Country, did not in fact
>HAVE to leave. We were given flatly incorrect information. This was
>confirmed to me by congressional agents whom I brought onto the case.
>
>It was suggested to me that, although the INS claimed that it didn't
>have to be responsible for its own actions, I *might* consider a
>lawsuit. Perhaps I should have. I did not.
>
>Question: was this a snafu--simply the result of federal desk-squatter
>incompetency? Was the INS Negress merely fucking with us because we
>are white? Is there an anti-white conspiracy in the INS?
>
>m
>
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 09:39:38 PDT 1996
Article: 83840 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.activism,alt.activism.d,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Israel tortures spouse of U.S. citizen [was: FWD: Israel-HRW Consultant detained and ill-treated]
Date: 1 Sep 1996 05:54:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <50b8du$db@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <7fb5ca76&199608241934.WAA10339@mail.netvision.net.il>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca15-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01 12:54:06 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:269220 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:367700 alt.politics.radical-left:115205 alt.activism:72065 alt.activism.d:27720 alt.conspiracy:83840

  So this is what those billions of U.S.-taxpayers' money is being used
for (aside from stealing the houses and land of the indiginous
Palestinians who have lived in PALESTINE -- not "Israel" -- for
millennia): to torture and otherwise persecute innocent people, such as
the husband of the American citizen now being victimized bythe
Israelis.
  I really feel bad for the Righteous Jews -- Mssrs. Roth and Bernstein
-- who will now likely be shunned by their bitter brethren for having
had the "chutzpah" to -- how unthinkable! -- defend a non-Jew against
Israeli atrocities.
  I also respect these two Righteous jews immensely for the important
work they're doing to protect and preserve people's human rights.
  Please consider donating whatever amount you can to Human Rights
Watch. [see info at end of main msg]

In <7fb5ca76&199608241934.WAA10339@mail.netvision.net.il>
freedom@netvision.net.il writes: 
>
>From: "Hillel Barak" 
>Subject: (Fwd) Israel-HRW Consultant detained and ill-treated
>
>------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
>Date:          August 23, 1996
>From:          hrwatchnyc@igc.org
>Subject:       Israel-HRW Consultant detained and ill-treated
>To:            hrw-news@igc.org
>
>Consultant for Human Rights Watch Ill-Treated in Israeli detention; 
>Human Rights Watch demands his Immediate Release
>
>
>Human Rights Watch (HRW), an independent, U.S.-based organization,
>demanded today that Israeli authorities release Human Rights Watch's
>consultant Bashar Tarabieh, who has been subjected to ill-treatment
>and interrogated about his human rights work. Mr. Tarabieh, a U.S.
>resident who was on holiday, was detained on August 19 in his native
>Golan Heights.
>
>Kenneth Roth, Executive Director of Human Rights Watch, said today,
>"The fact that interrogators have spent hours questioning Mr. Tarabieh
>about his work for Human Rights Watch suggests they have no evidence
>that he has committed any offense. They have kept him in a contorted
>position with his hands and feet tied, and with a dirty sack over his
>head. Instead of mistreating and harassing him over his work to
>protect the rights of others, they should grant him his liberty
>immediately."
>
>Mr. Tarabieh has been subjected to degrading and inhumane treatment
>while in Jalameh prison, which is located near Haifa in northern
>Israel. He has been hooded, tied to a chair with his hands and feet
>also tied, and forced to sit in a contorted position for hours.  When
>not being questioned, he has been kept handcuffed in a tiny cell. He
>has been denied regular meals, and appeared disoriented and confused.
>Until today, he had been denied a shower and change of clothes.
>
>HRW's concern for Mr. Tarabieh is heightened by the well-documented
>phenomenon of torture and ill-treatment practiced by Israeli
>interrogators against residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. 
>
>In addition, interrogators threatened to confiscate Mr. Tarabieh's
>Israeli-issued travel documents and prevent him from leaving Israel.
>They also used insulting language and called the work of organizations
>such as HRW and the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem "lies."

>
>During an appeal of Mr. Tarabieh's detention held Friday in Haifa
>District Court, his lawyer requested that he be released on bail or
>transferred to house arrest, arguing that the detainee has no criminal
>or security record and poses no threat to national or public security.

>The court denied the appeal, on the basis of secret information that
>was withheld from Mr. Tarabieh and his lawyer.  A hearing on further
>extension of his detention is scheduled to be held on Monday, August
>26.  
>
>Mr. Tarabieh's work for HRW focused on Saddam Hussein's genocidal
>campaign against Iraqi Kurds.  This research, in which he collaborated
>until 1995, was the subject of a long article in the Israeli newspaper
>Ha'aretz on March 1, 1994. Tarabieh has served more recently as a
>part-time translator and interpreter for HRW while working toward a
>degree at Temple University.
>
>Mr. Tarabieh has never been arrested before.  He is married to a U.S.
>citizen and lives in the Philadelphia area.
>
> 
>###
>Human Rights Watch/Middle East
>Human Rights Watch is a nongovernmental organization established in
>1978 to monitor and promote the observance of internationally
>recognized human rights in Africa, the Americas, Asia, the Middle East
>and among the signatories of the Helsinki accords.  It is supported by
>contributions from private individuals and foundations worldwide.  It
>accepts no government funds, directly or indirectly.  Kenneth Roth is
>the executive director and Robert L. Bernstein is the chair of the
>board.  Its Middle East division was established in 1989 to monitor
>and promote the observance of internationally recognized human rights
>in the Middle East and North Africa. Eric Goldstein is the acting
>executive director.
>
>Gopher Address://gopher.humanrights.org:5000
>Listserv address: To subscribe to the list, send an e-mail message to
>majordomo@igc.apc.org with "subscribe hrw-news" in the body of the
>message
>(leave the subject line blank).
>
>Human Rights Watch
>485 Fifth Avenue
>New York, NY 10017-6104
>TEL: 212/972-8400
>FAX: 212/972-0905
>E-mail: hrwnyc@hrw.org
>            
>1522 K Street, N.W.
>Washington D.C. 20005
>TEL: 202/371-6592
>FAX: 202/371-0124
>E-mail: hrwdc@hrw.org 
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 10:39:28 PDT 1996
Article: 61479 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 1 Sep 1996 15:41:51 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <50carv$q9n@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4vsept$pfh@vixc.voyager.net> <503vsp$rnh@panix2.panix.com>  <5083mf$sot@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <509ddt$o4h@panix2.panix.com> <509kvu$rhv@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01 10:41:51 AM CDT 1996
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In  kate@accessone.com (Kathleen
Mulhern) writes: 

["same old, same old" considerately snipped]
 
  Ms. "Mulhern"'s essential argument, based on her unrelenting refrain
(obsession?) that the $1 million of U.S. taxpayer money that the
reported Clinton fundraiser, multimillionaire Hollywood mogul Stephen
Spielberg, was given amounts to just a penny-per-taxpayer (she said
$.25 in her earlier posts, but who's counting?) seems to be this:

           "Anyone -- especially an extremely wealthy celebrity 
         -- who wants $1 million dollars to fund his/her pet 
         project is ENTITLED to it, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, NO
         CRITICISMS ALLOWED from the very people from whom those few   
         pennies are taken.
           "After all, that $1 million only comes out to a mere few    
         cents per American household.
           "So shut up and hand over that spare change in your         
         pockets!"

  Hey, you can smear me as a "kook," an "antisemite![tm]" or whatever
you like all day long, but I think the attitude displayed in your
argument is WRONG.

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 10:39:30 PDT 1996
Article: 61480 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 1 Sep 1996 15:48:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4v80ea$lb6@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4v8f3d$1ho@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>  <3219464c.23642772@netnews.voicenet.com>  <4vgbna$mv2@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>  <4vlk4o$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4vlvm8$l0n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <505mdh$p1v@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>  <509jj3$mso@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01  8:48:42 AM PDT 1996
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In  kate@accessone.com (Kathleen
Mulhern) writes: 

[snip]

  "Sr. Kathleen Mulhern" -- seriously -- are you The Church Lady?
  If The Church Lady was indoctrinated into politically-correct
thinking, I suspect she'd turn out like "Sr. Mulhern."
  Now go do your special dance for us. :-0
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 14:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 83951 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!nntp.reed.edu!sun.lclark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Fwd: Unlimited Access, the Sequel
Date: 1 Sep 1996 06:41:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <50bb74$hfk@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3229224B.79F@ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca15-19.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01  1:41:39 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:83951 alt.politics.perot:54127

Forwarded msg:

In <3229224B.79F@ibm.net> Al Ridemfi  writes: 
>
>Sources say that "Tricky Dick" Morris, Clinton's fallen Family Values
guru had been 
>quietly writing a Tell-All book during his tenure in the WH, a la Gary
Aldrich.
>
>According to the Washington Post, an anonymous source said that Morris
had been writing 
>the book "during the spring, summer and fall....This was the
definitive account of how 
>Clinton had managed to overcome the idiots and screw-ups that
threatened to subvert his 
>campaign....Instead of writing that book, Morris has now become one of
those idiots."
>
>I can hardly wait, as it appeared that although he had no security
clearance, Morris had 
>access to top level secrets anyway.  I wonder if he and Craig
Livingstone shared notes.
>
>-- 
>"The President will keep [only] those promises he INTENDED to keep"  
>                                    -- George Stephanpoulos

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 22:02:35 PDT 1996
Article: 61589 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism,alt.activism.d,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Jew justfies Nazi-like tactics against poor people? [re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N]
Date: 2 Sep 1996 01:38:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <50ddq6$d9f@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3225b62a.5671665@news.pacificnet.net> <32283db2.355804@news.pacificnet.net> <50b08g$m72@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
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In  alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) writes: 
[snip]
>Goodness! Buying land at 10 times the going rate from happy-to-sell
>locals is now called theft!
>What will they think of next?!?

  Seems like those now-homeless Palestinians -- whose ancestors have
lived on the land for centuries, if not millennia -- whose modest homes
were destroyed and lands were confiscated by the self-proclaimed,
American-funded "Jewish State" didn't get such a great "deal" ["10
times the going rate!"] from the Paris, New York, and London-born
leaders of the Israeli government who recently authorized such
heartless land-grabbing.
  BTW, if your dubious claim has any iota of truth at all, where do you
think Israel GETS that $$ to pay those whose lands they steal "10 times
the going rate"? 
  Can you spell "A-m-e-r-i-c-a-n t-a-x-p-a-y-e-r-s"?
  Moreover, if the likewise-inhuman Nazis had given the Jews -- whose
property they, too, so criminally confiscated a half-century ago -- "10
times the going rate" for it, would that have made it ok? 
  I think not!
  [Anyone wanting more information on the U.S.-subsidized Israeli
government's most-recent cruel land-grabbing against the indiginous
Palestinians -- which left so many people (entire Palestinian families,
in fact) homeless, should visit the soc.culture.palestine and
human-rights related newsgroups. 
  [I am utterly THRILLED and PROUD -- as a HUMAN BEING AND REGARDLESS
OF MY OWN STRONG RELIGIOUS BELIEFS AS A ROMAN CATHOLIC -- to announce
that it is two Righteous American Jews, officials of the group Human
Rights Watch, who are in the forefront of publicizing this
American-subsidized Jewish Nazism against poor people -- people whose
entire 10- or 15-member extended families lived in (now-bulldozed)
two-room houses before they were kicked out of these, their modest
ancestral homes and lands.
  [May the God who created us ALL give these Righteous Jews strength as
they begin to experience the first in what will likely be a life-long
series of bitter denunciations, insults and personal slights by their
fellow Jews for having had the chutzpah to speak out about the
Nazi-like persecutions which Palestinians face every day in the lands
where their families have lived -- unlike the recent-arriving families
of their persecutors -- for millennia.]
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 22:02:36 PDT 1996
Article: 61595 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism,alt.activism.d,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: 2 Sep 1996 02:32:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <50dgvg$gua@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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In <322a1eea.20276713@nntp.interaccess.com> dscruggs@interaccess.com
(Derek Scruggs) writes: 
>
>On 1 Sep 1996 03:34:40 GMT, joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>>  However, where are the hard-working, future-oriented Israelis, for
>>example, when it comes to manufacturing ANYTHING the world needs? 
>>  Such as cars.
>>  Such as consumer electronics.
>>  Such as food.
>
>They're too busy doing stupid things, like WINNING NOBEL PRIZES for
>stupid basic research stuff like, oh, QUANTUM MECHANICS, without which
>modern computers would be impossible.
>
>--Derek

Drek,

  Exactly how many Israelis have "WON NOBEL PRIZES" for stuff like
"QUANTUM MECHANICS"? A dozen or so?
  How many workers does it take to manufacture a car? 
  A stereo?
  To grow and harvest food crops?
  Citing the (admirable) achievements of a few highly-untypical Israeli
individuals is a pretty weak reply, methinks.
  Duh!
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 23:08:37 PDT 1996
Article: 84100 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Fwd: London Times reports on American Media and Morris
Date: 2 Sep 1996 02:39:33 GMT
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Forwarded msg follows:

In <50d74b$1vt@texas.nwlink.com> brendat@nwlink.com (Brenda Tipton)
writes: 
>
>This article was run in the Sunday Times of London in the Review
Section.
>
>		" It's the sleaze, stupid 
>
>                Sleaze moved centre-stage in American politics
>                once again last week as a reluctant media were
>                forced to confront the reality that a leading
>                Democrat had betrayed his wife, betrayed his
>                country and betrayed the president. 
>
>                The resignation of Dick Morris, President Bill
>                Clinton's closest political adviser, was a great
>                news story. Morris was the architect of
>                Clinton's "family values" campaign theme and
>                yet he had been cavorting with Sherry
>                Rowlands, a $200-an-hour prostitute, in a smart
>                hotel not far from the White House. To give
>                the story an added political dimension, Morris
>                had allowed the woman to listen in to his phone
>                calls with Clinton, had shown her advance
>                copies of speeches and shared high-grade
>                political gossip. 
>
>                In Britain Morris would have been seen as a
>                serious security risk and forced to resign in
>                disgrace. In America there was a reluctance
>                both to report the story and to blame Morris for
>                his behaviour. Instead, the media agonised over
>                whether to report the story at all and, when
>                they did, looked for other explanations for his
>                fall from grace. 
>
>                The story first surfaced in the Star, a
>                mass-circulation supermarket tabloid that was
>                also responsible for breaking the story of
>                Gennifer Flowers's lengthy affair with Clinton
>                when he was governor of Arkansas. Certain
>                that the Morris story was in danger of being
>                leaked in advance, the Star, which is published
>                tomorrow, passed a copy of its story to the
>                New York Post, which is owned by Rupert
>                Murdoch, the Chicago Tribune and The Wall
>                Street Journal. 
>
>                Only the Post ran the story, after checking the
>                Star's sources, which included tape-recordings
>                of conversations between Rowlands and
>                Morris, photographs and a video of them
>                together and a detailed diary kept by Rowlands.
>                By any normal standards, the documentation
>                was convincing and the story real. Yet much of
>                Friday was spent with the Washington political
>                pundits debating whether the story was true, if
>                it was part of a dark Republican plot and, even
>                if it were true, if it should be made public. 
>
>                Such agonising has always been a part of
>                American journalism. Unlike in Europe,
>                reporters are stars in their own right, and to
>                deliver the kind of pompous punditry the job
>                requires they need to get close to their sources.
>                This process of co-option reduces the role of
>                the independent and critical reporter to one who
>                willingly reflects the views of his contacts to
>                keep a flow of good stories. 
>
>                This is especially true in Washington, where
>                scoops are a rarity and the managed leak is the
>                standard operating procedure. Many of those
>                reporting the Morris story were not only his
>                friends but would depend on the White House
>                news machine for other items. So if the
>                Democrats wanted a particular view reflected,
>                the journalists would slavishly follow the
>                briefing. 
>
>                There is a sanctimonious thread running
>                through American public life that still sees sex
>                as off-limits. Endless hours of broadcasting and
>                numerous column inches will be spent on
>                traducing an official for taking a free lunch
>                from a lobbyist, but sexual misbehaviour will go
>                unreported. 
>
>                However, the barriers are slowly breaking
>                down and the conspiracy that allowed editors to
>                keep legitimate news away from the public is
>                being eroded. Sex is becoming more of a media
>                commodity, driven in part by the popularity of
>                tabloid news shows, radio programmes and the
>                more downmarket newspapers. 
>
>                When President John Kennedy was in the
>                White House, his affairs with a string of women
>                were the talk of Washington. But he was so ad
>                mired by the largely liberal press that not a
>                word of his behaviour reached the public,
>                although one of his mistresses was also having
>                an affair with a mafia boss. Yet every detail of
>                the Profumo scandal that was being exposed in
>                Britain at the time was eagerly reported by The
>                New York Times and The Washington Post.
>                After Kennedy's assassination there was some
>                embarrassment in the media when the extent of
>                his infidelity became known through a number
>                of biographies. So when Gary Hart decided to
>                run for the Democratic presidential nomination
>                in 1988, the knives were a little sharper. His
>                affair with Donna Rice was widely known to
>                the media, but it was not until he laid down a
>                direct challenge to the reporters following his
>                campaign to try to catch him out that he was
>                exposed with Rice on board the yacht Monkey
>                Business. 
>
>                The Hart affair coincided with a series of sex
>                scandals involving Christian television
>                evangelists that may have begun the true
>                erosion of American sexual sensibilities. Jim
>                Bakker, who ran the popular Praise The Lord
>                club, was found to have frolicked with Jessica
>                Hahn and an indeterminate number of young
>                men. Jimmy Swaggart, another television
>                evangelist, was one of those who helped
>                orchestrate Bakker's downfall. But within
>                months he was forced to confess that he had
>                slept with a prostitute. His resignation was a
>                serious blow to the multi-billion-dollar
>                evangelist industry and set a new low standard
>                of behaviour. After all, if priests could do it,
>                why couldn't politicians? 
>
>                Although liberal newspapers were happy to
>                publish unfounded and unsourced rumours
>                about Nancy Reagan's alleged dalliance with
>                Frank Sinatra and George Bush's alleged affair
>                with a State Department sec retary, it is the
>                Clinton campaign that seems to have set new
>                low standards in American public life. 
>
>                It started with an exposé of the candidate's
>                affair with Flowers, complete with tapes of
>                phone calls and an account by Flowers of who
>                did what to whom, which appeared in
>                Penthouse magazine. Although the affair was
>                widely reported, as were several later
>                accusations of sexual harassment or affairs ­
>                such as an allegation by Paula Corbin Jones, a
>                former receptionist, that Clinton visited her
>                hotel room in 1991 and exposed himself to her
>                ­ there remained a reluctance among the serious
>                press to report the details. The justification for
>                such inaction was that independent
>                confirmation of the story was difficult to obtain.
>
>                But those same newspapers, such as The New
>                York Times and The Washington Post, cite the
>                British tabloids as a reliable source when
>                writing about the sexual peccadilloes of the
>                royal family. Reporting sexual misbehaviour
>                using secondary sources from abroad is
>                apparently acceptable, but the home-grown
>                variety is off limits. 
>
>                While every serious journalist in Washington
>                accepts that Clinton had a string of affairs,
>                there is a willingness to accept without criticism
>                his campaign platform that has family values as
>                a cornerstone. 
>
>                That double standard applies as much to other
>                members of the administration as to the
>                president himself. Ron Brown, the late
>                commerce secretary, flaunted his affair with
>                Nolanda Hill, which went on for several years.
>                It was never reported in Washington and when
>                Brown was killed in a plane crash earlier this
>                year, he was eulogised in the media as a happy
>                family man. 
>
>                The media were not always so compliant.
>                When Grover Cleveland was campaigning for
>                president in 1884, it was revealed that he had
>                an illegitimate son and Republicans taunted him
>                with chants of "Ma! Ma! Where's my Pa?". He
>                won and the Democrats responded: "Gone to
>                the White House, ha ha ha!" 
>
>                Complicity by some of the media in accepting
>                amoral behaviour by public officials has steadily
>                devalued the standard to which elected and
>                appointed officials are held accountable. Henry
>                Cisneros, the housing secretary, had a very
>                public affair when he was mayor of San
>                Antonio, Texas. When he was appointed by
>                Clinton he lied to the FBI about the relationship
>                and about how much he had paid his mistress. 
>
>                When Janet Reno, the attorney general,
>                investigated the affair, she found that he had
>                lied and yet he still remains in office. Neither
>                infidelity nor lying is apparently a sackable
>                offence in the Clinton administration. 
>
>                In fact, Clinton excused Cisneros ­ perhaps
>                with his own conduct in mind ­ by saying the
>                matter related to events that took place before
>                Cisneros joined the cabinet. 
>
>                The media are able to get away with not doing
>                their job in part because the public seems to
>                care so little about the behaviour of its officials.
>                Despite a succession of scandals, Clinton is
>                likely to be re-elected. The public appears to
>                think that all politicians are sleazy so another
>                illustration of dissolute behaviour merely
>                confirms an existing prejudice. 
>
>                While the public demands so little of its
>                politicians, there will be no reason for standards
>                to improve. That is the sad commentary about
>                the Morris affair. He did nothing that other
>                administration officials are not still doing with
>                impunity. His problem was one of timing. 
>
>                He was exposed as a philanderer just hours
>                before the president's key speech at the
>                Democratic convention, and so he was a
>                distraction who had to go. "
>
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Sep  2 13:11:28 PDT 1996
Article: 61700 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!newsrelay.netins.net!news.netins.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 2 Sep 1996 08:36:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net>  writes: 
>
>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>>  Ms. "Mulhern"'s essential argument, based on her unrelenting
>>refrain
>>(obsession?) that the $1 million of U.S. taxpayer money that the
>>reported Clinton fundraiser, multimillionaire Hollywood mogul Stephen
>>Spielberg, was given amounts to just a penny-per-taxpayer (she said
>>$.25 in her earlier posts, but who's counting?) seems to be this:
>>
>Look, can you count? $1 million divided by taxpayers in the U.S. would
>be a lot less than both her calculations. Do you have a calculator?

  Look, are you so dense -- or in denial -- that you genuinely cannot
understand this?: that the fact that each and every U.S. taxpayer was
forced by their government to contribute "just" a few cents to
multimillionaire Spielberg for his pet media project is not even, IMO,
necessarily the main point.
  More important, to me, is the fact that the William J. Clinton-led
U.S. government has given a hugely wealthy private citizen -- one who
is a reported major fundraiser for Clinton, moreover -- a million
bucks.
  It's bad enough that the U.S taxpayers have had their taxes raised to
unprecedented levels in order to allow the government to fund a panoply
of other projects and programs which have no business receiving
government money.
  For the U.S. taxpayers -- who've already paid how-many-millions to
erect and maintain the Holocaust Museum in Washington (where no similar
museum exists to memorialize even the American serviceman) -- to be
forced to now cough up $1 million to hand over to Clinton's
multimillionaire fundraiser is, IMO, an outrage.

>          "Anyone -- especially an extremely wealthy celebrity 
>>         -- who wants $1 million dollars to fund his/her pet 
>>         project is ENTITLED to it, NO QUESTIONS ASKED, NO
>>         CRITICISMS ALLOWED from the very people from whom those few 
>>         "pennies" are taken.
>>           "After all, that $1 million only comes out to a mere few  
>>         cents per American household.
>>           "So shut up and hand over that spare change in your       
>>          pockets!"
>>
>>  Hey, you can smear me as a "kook," an "antisemite![tm]" or whatever
>>you like all day long, but I think the attitude displayed in your
>>argument is WRONG.
>>
>Look, Speilberg has enough to fund all the Holocausts Musuems in the
>world, but because he's Jewish people will think he has a "personal"
>grudge that he's spending his wealth on. 

  I said nothing about Spielberg having any kind of "personal grudge."
  If he wants to do the project, he can well afford it himself;
alternately, he'd have no trouble soliciting the funds privately.
  But even if he COULDN'T pay for it himself, nor solicit the needed
funds from his fellow Hollyvood millionaires, there'd STILL be no
justifiable reason that $5.50-hour-earning U.S. taxpayers should be
FORCED by their government to provide Spielberg financial aid.
  I think most libertarian-conservatives -- indeed, most Americans in
general -- would agree.
  
>The point is that the U.S.
>government has given money. Which means that other countries and
>governments will also give money, and not just for Jews.

  I don't CARE what you or Spielberg expect "other countries" to do.

>For the idea that governments should not use their money and power to
>destroy people.

  PLEASE tell me you're kidding!
  If you were serious, then Mr. Spielberg should be subsidizing
publications such as the weekly SPOTLIGHT newspaper [subscription info:
202-546-5621] and putting on fundraisers for Pat Buchanan -- those
being two sources I know of which have taken strong positions critical
of the war-mongering Israel Lobby in the United States.

>That governments and countries will put their money where there mouths
>have been. Never again. Not against Jews, or Native Americans, or
>native Koreans in Japan, or blacks in South Africa, or Bosnia, or 
>the Kurds in Iraq, Indians in Peru.

  Hey, you can wax poetic all you want, it doesn't mean s$!t and you
know it, I suspect.
  If you're REALLY concerned about protecting peoples' human rights,
donate to organizations such as Human Rights Watch, which [see recent
postings in the soc.culture.palestine newsgroup, for one] are telling
the world about the Israel's Nazi-like treatment of Palestinians --
which includes bulldozing their ancestral homes, leaving entire
families homeless -- not a half-century ago, but TODAY, NOW.
  Hypocrite.
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Sep  2 15:11:44 PDT 1996
Article: 61730 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 2 Sep 1996 17:40:08 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <50f65o$lr4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4vsept$pfh@vixc.voyager.net> <4vthan$4ms@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <503bcu$93@colossus.holonet.net> <503vsp$rnh@panix2.panix.com>  <50dp90$n9@colossus.holonet.net>
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In <50dp90$n9@colossus.holonet.net> steven@csnsys.com (Steven Casas)
writes: 
[snip]

>At this point, I want my damn 1/4 cent back along with all my other 
 *******************************************************************
>1/4 cents that have been spent on things that I dont directly benefit 
 *********************************************************************
>from. Maybe then I'll have something left to give the poor guy who 
 ****
>asks me for a dollar instead of telling him I already gave it to the
>Government and I'm sure they'd be happy to give him the 20 cents of it
>he's entitled to. I gaurantee if I gave him a dollar, he'd get the 
                   ************************************************
>*whole* dollar!
 **************

  STEVE CASAS IS MY "HOME-BOY"! (Pun most definitely intended!) :-)
  Why the hell isn't someone like HIM runing for President? 

>************************************************************
>**  Steve Casas        Carpenter          Gun Owner       **
>**                     Singer             Songwriter      **
>**  No man gave us     Guitar Player      Catholic        **
>**  our FREEDOM and    Deadhead           Conservative    **
>**  *dammit*, no man   Ex-Serviceman      Avid Reader     **
>**  is gonna take      Electronics Technician             **
>**  it away!!!!!!!                                        **
>**                         steven@csnsys.com              **
>************************************************************

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Sep  2 21:22:29 PDT 1996
Article: 61795 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Spielberg: how much has he given USA?
Date: 3 Sep 1996 03:18:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <50ft4t$hd8@zot.io.org> kamamer@zot.io.org (karl mamer) writes: 
>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes:
>
>>   Look, are you so dense -- or in denial -- that you genuinely
cannot
>> understand this?: that the fact that each and every U.S. taxpayer
was
>> forced by their government to contribute "just" a few cents to
>> multimillionaire Spielberg for his pet media project is not even,
IMO,
>> necessarily the main point.
>
>Let's consider how much money Speilburg's works (oh, like ET) have
>brought into the US? Hundreds of millions of offshore dollars
>that have generated hundreds of millions of tax dollars,
>and employed thousands. And how much has Speilburg donated
>to various charities? I know for one he gave a substantial
>grant to the SETI project out of his own pocket.

  According to that logic, the American taxpayers should give every
U.S. individual or business which successfully markets his/her/it's
products or services overseas a grant of $1 million because their
efforts, in your words, "have generated hundreds of millions of tax
dollars and emplyed thousands."
  There are lots and lots of successful international businesses in the
U.S. -- every one, according to your simplistic logic, is entitled to a
$1 million handout.
  I don't think so.
   
>Are you really that petty, Charles, that you will begrudge a man as
>capable as Speilburg to oversee a million dollar government project?
            ^^^^^^^^^
  Firstly, I believe the name of the man I'm supposedly "begrudging" is
"Spielberg."
  You wanted "petty," you GOT "petty." :-)
  (I would never have mentioned it, though, if at the least your
spelling skils were superior to your thinking skills.) 
  Personally, I've never been a big fan of Spielberg's movies -- I much
prefer the work of, say, the one-time Catholic seminarian Martin
Scorcese who, kind of incredibly, I think many would agree, has never,
ever been awarded an Academy Award by the Hollyvood power elite, while
Spielberg has how many?
  Nonetheless, I don't doubt for a second that Spielberg is a very
talent moviemaker, and that his movies do quite well overseas.
  Still, I fail to see any connection between that and the obligation
of the American taxpayers to give him a million bucks.
  Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, et al have sold who-knows-how-many
millions of records and tapes abroad -- as far as I know, none of THEM
was ever given $1 million by the government for a pet project.
  How sad that, rather than address the substantive issue involved, you
feel a need -- more than likely, due to the intellectual inadequacies
of your argument -- to try to put the focus on me instead (i.e. the
"are you so petty ...?" routine), rather than on the issue under
discussion.  
  All-too-typical, unfortunately.
  I already know your next move: when ya can't refute 'em, NOMINATE 'EM
FOR "KOOK OF THE MONTH," as you did some months ago!
  I submit that the folks over at the applicable newsgroup, after
reading the "evidence" you provided them, likely considered nominating
YOU for the KOTM honor! :-)
  However, that whole KOTM thing is a two-edged sword: winning that 
honor is something akin to being labelled a "kook" by the inhabitants
of an insane asylum, i.e. a re-affirmation of one's sanity! :-)
  
[snip]

>pps give it a rest, Charles. You can't argue your way out
>of a paper swastika.

  That's an odd comment coming from someone who, till now, has been
doing his darnedest, expending significant energy, in fact -- quite
unsuccessfully, I might add (hence the need to bring in entirely
unrelated previous debate issues) -- to present a cogent, well-reasoned
refutation of my basic points. 
  


-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:10 PDT 1996
Article: 62119 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!news.spies.com!nntp1.jpl.nasa.gov!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 4 Sep 1996 00:54:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <50ijvj$e13@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <50e6an$3jd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50h2h9$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50h849$1n3@panix2.panix.com>
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In <50h849$1n3@panix2.panix.com> gcf@panix.com (G*rd*n the Demon Rat)
writes: 
>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>| ...
>| >  Look, are you so dense -- or in denial -- that you genuinely
cannot
>| >understand this?: that the fact that each and every U.S. taxpayer
was
>| >forced by their government to contribute "just" a few cents to
>| >multimillionaire Spielberg for his pet media project is not even,
IMO,
>| >necessarily the main point.
>| ...
>
>The main point is this: you want to focus on a one-million
>dollar expenditure, while the U.S. government wastes not
>many millions, but many billions, on all sorts of
>boondoggles, starting with a good part of the budget of the
>Department of Defense.  If your concern is the taxpayers'
>quarter-pennies, you should explain why you don't start at
>the top.
>-- 
>   }"{  Gordon Fitch  }"{  gcf@panix.com  }"{

  Hey, I agree wholeheartedly, the U.S. government wastes untold
billions of dollars annually on other things, quite apart from the $1
million given to the multimillionaire Hollywood movie mogul Spielberg.
  However, I totally reject your (arrogant) claim that, "If your
concern is the taxpayers' quarter-pennies, you should explain why you
don't start at the top."
  Hey, that millions bucks that Clinton gave Spielberg for his pet
project *IS*, IMO, the actual "top": the "peak" of the huge mountain of
ill-advised government expenditures in general.
  Far from me "having to explain" why I oppose giving a
multimillionaire Clinton fundraiser $1 million, I suggest that *YOU*
oughta be explaining why doing so makes sense.
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 08:57:14 PDT 1996
Article: 84832 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.immigration,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: NY TIMES: Shocking crime wave in Mexico after $50 billion peso bailout!
Date: 4 Sep 1996 02:38:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <50iq38$s5j@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca9-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03  7:38:32 PM PDT 1996
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[Incidentally, please don't get the impression that I'm a fan of Rush
Limbaugh or Newt Gingrich due to the fact that their
cult-of-personality newsgroups are listed in the distribution line!
!VIVA BUCHANAN! !VIVA PEROT! !PUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE'S INTERESTS
*FIRST* -- NOT WALL STREET'S -- WHEN IT COMES TO SPENDING THEIR TAX
DOLLARS, I SAY! !VIVA BUCHANAN! !VIVA PEROT!]

Headline in today's (9/3/96) NY TIMES:

           Bold Crime Wave Leaves Mexicans wary of Police
                           by Sam Dillon

  The article by the NY TIMES writer begins by dramatically describing
the recent home invasion of wealthy Tijuana power-elite-member Robert
Estudillo.
  Ten masked men with machine guns and driving jeeps [which were, more
than likely, stolen from U.S. citizens and then driven South of the
Border, a huge industry in Mexico] blocked-off the street in front of
Estudillo's home, a part of town where lots of wealthy Mexicans live.  
  Witnesses thought they really were, as the lettering on their black
uniforms proclaimed, Federal Judicial Police.
  Not so. 
  Actually, they *might* have been Mexican Federal Police at one time,
but no longer, according to the thrust of the article.
  After beating several servants, the group ransacked the place, stole
jewelry and whatever else wasn't tied down -- including a safe, which
actually MAY have been "tied down" prior to its removal. Anyway, they
calmly carried the safe out the door to one of their jeeps and, sirens
blaring, and lights flashing, sped off to count and divide their booty.
  According to the TIMES article, this kind of thing is becoming
increasingly common in Mexico these days. 
  "The lines between the police and criminals in Mexico, never very
clear, have blurred to the point of erasure in recent months, with
reports across the country of apparent police involvement in
kidnappings, auto theft, drug trafficking and other crimes," writes
reporter Dillon.
  At the same time, a new guerrilla group has emerged in Mexico.
  In July the Mexican government fired 700 of the country's 4,400
federales, who are essentially its national police force.
  However, observers figure the recent dismissals won't do much to
improve things in Mexico, which President Clinton, in what "right-wing
kooks" declared was an un-Consitutional move, used an obscure,
never-used law to  hand over $50 billion to Mexico about two years ago.
  Mr. Clinton's hand-picked Secretary of the Treasury, Robert Rubin --
a Wall Street whiz-kid at Sachs, Goldman during the Reagan era --
strongly supported the $50 billion Mexican bailout, of which his former
employer, Sachs, Goldman was a *MAJOR* beneficiary, having invested
billions in Mexico just prior to the passage of NAFTA. (Strictly a
coincidence.)
  Says U of New Mexico researcher Peter Lupsha in the TIMES article,
referring to the recent firing of 700 federales, "If you list the
purges over the years -- 400 agents here, 500 there -- tens of
thousands of federales have been dismissed . . . So it isn't clear what
this will accomplish." 
  In addition, serious questions have been raised about the "700 bad
officers were dismissed" figure. 
  "In the border state of Tamaulipas, for example, one police commander
who was reportedly dismissed had died weeks before in an auto crash,"
writes Dillon.
  The TIMES story reports that the firing of another commander, Horacio
Brunt, came as quite as a surprise: in January he had captured Juan
Garcia Abrego, the first Mexican drug trafficker to make the F.B.I.'s
10 Most Wanted List."
  Seems Mr. Brunt had been lionized in the Mexican media, and the Wall
Street Journal had called him "a model for Mexico's police as they try
to become more professional and crack down on rampant corruption."
  I don't know about *you* folks reading this, but I'm *thrilled* that
the Establishment Republicans such as Dole, Gingrich and Limbaugh and
the Establishment Democrats such as Clinton, Rubin and Gore could find
a unifying issue to have a meeting-of-the-minds about: giving the
wonderful, efficient, "clean" Government of Mexico [headquarters:
Geneva, Switzerland?] $50 billion taken from workers all over the
United States who, working tw or three jobs, earn five or six bucks an
hour and literally dread the prospect of getting sick, lest they go
bankrupt!
  Way to go, guys! Hooray for Clinton! Hooray for Dole! 


    
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 08:57:15 PDT 1996
Article: 84906 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!qualcomm.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Dole Wants Clinton Medical Records
Date: 23 Aug 1996 01:22:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <4vj142$m6v@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca10-17.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 22  6:22:10 PM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:272173 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:369906 alt.conspiracy:84906 alt.politics.perot:54486 alt.president.clinton:93502 alt.politics.democrats.d:117704

  Wait a minute: didn't the President's wife, Hillary -- universally
acknowledged to wield significant power herself as the [unelected]
"Co-President" -- work for the Senate Watergate Committee back in the
1970s? 
  And didn't the whole Watergate situation result in a huge campaign
for "full disclosure" in government?
  Then how can the other half of the Dual Presidents be so secretive
when it comes to actually following through on "full disclosure," which
those of their ilk were so emphatic about when it came to "disclosing
fully" the machinations of [the admittedly noxious] Nixon?
  Shouldn't Mrs. Clinton, as a former Watergate Committee staff lawyer,
be demanding of her husband that he make a complete release of his
medical records?
  
In  kknopp@citynet.net (Kurt
Knopp) writes: 
>
>Dole Wants Clinton Med Update
>
>Wednesday, August 21, 1996 1204PDT
>© Copyright 1996 The Associated Press
>
>WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Clinton, who has released summaries of
his
>annual physicals, is under increasing pressure from Republican rival
Bob
>Dole's campaign to make his entire medical record public.
>
>``Why won't the president of the United States provide the American
people
>with a full accounting of his medical history and records?'' Dole-Kemp
>spokesman Nelson Warfield asked in a statement Wednesday.
>
>In May, the White House released a written summary of Clinton's
physical and
>spokesman Mike McCurry answered a few questions in his daily briefing.
Dole
>has released more detailed medical records.
>
>On Wednesday, McCurry verbally released the results on Clinton's most
recent
>hemoglobin count, white blood count, platelet count and a liver test
-- and
>said all were within normal levels. The Dole-Kemp campaign said that
is not
>enough; they want Clinton's complete records.
>
>``After all, as Bill Clinton's White House has proven time and again,
>partial disclosure is no disclosure at all,'' the Warfield statement
said.
>
>McCurry said he will discuss the prospect of releasing full records
with the
>White House doctor, who presumably will check with Clinton.

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW ...
 THAT'S my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . . . . . . . . "I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . "Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 21:10:22 PDT 1996
Article: 62422 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 5 Sep 1996 01:03:08 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <50l8sc$phe@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50h2h9$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50h849$1n3@panix2.panix.com> <50ijvj$e13@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <50jscl$f4v@panix2.panix.com>
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In <50jscl$f4v@panix2.panix.com> gcf@panix.com (G*rd*n the Demon Rat)
writes: 

>No, it isn't.  It's far down the list.  There's nothing
>arrogant about about asking why (to use an old Jewish
>proverb) you choke on a grain and swallow a camel.  It's
>obviously of much greater concern to a taxpayer when the
>government throws billions of dollars away, than one-
>thousandth or less of such sums.  If you think otherwise
>you should amuse us by trying to explain why.
>-- 
>   }"{  Gordon Fitch  }"{  gcf@panix.com  }"{

  To paraphrase an old goy saying, "A million here, a million there.
Before you know it, you're talking about *real money*!"
  Amused? ;-)
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 21:20:12 PDT 1996
Article: 85110 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.usa,talk.bizarre,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.urban,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton is a womanizer.
Date: 5 Sep 1996 00:57:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <50l8id$bet@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <322D3CBB.69B9@pcez.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca22-18.ix.netcom.com
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In <322D3CBB.69B9@pcez.com> sjdavis@pcez.com writes: 
>
>I do not see how any woman could vote for Bill Clinton after seeing
>what kinda jerk he is to woman.  He cheated on his wife and has a
>sexual harassment charge going on against him now.

  That's the least of it.
  See the recent "SPECIAL BILL CLINTON ISSUE" (8/26/96) of The
SPOTLIGHT weekly conservative-populist newspaper [subscription info:
(202) 546-5621] for a tough-hitting four-column story accompanied by
several fascinating photos.
  In it you'll find reproductions (no pun intended!) of portions of
several reports from other publications, including photos of Governor
Clinton's alleged "Black Mistress" and the child she allegedly bore by
him (looks VERY much like his alleged father, btw.)
  "The magazine "Slick Times" has offered a $1 million award [hear that
Spielberg? -- JB] to anyone who can disprove its allegation that
Clinton has a . . .  son, mothered by a prostitute. No one has stepped
forward."
  Another section of The SPOTLIGHT article quotes alleged ex-WJC
mistress, Hillary look-alike Sally Perdue, thusly: 

           "When I see him now, president of the United States, 
            meeting world leaders, I can't believe it," said Sally     
            Miller Perdue, a former Arkansas beauty queen . . . "I     
            still have this picture of him, wearing my black nightgown,
            playing the sax badly . . . How do you expect me to take   
            him seriously?"

The SPOTLIGHT
subscription info: (202) 546-5621


-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 21:30:44 PDT 1996
Article: 450063 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.usa,talk.bizarre,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.urban,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton is a womanizer.
Date: 5 Sep 1996 00:57:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <50l8id$bet@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <322D3CBB.69B9@pcez.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca22-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04  5:57:49 PM PDT 1996
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In <322D3CBB.69B9@pcez.com> sjdavis@pcez.com writes: 
>
>I do not see how any woman could vote for Bill Clinton after seeing
>what kinda jerk he is to woman.  He cheated on his wife and has a
>sexual harassment charge going on against him now.

  That's the least of it.
  See the recent "SPECIAL BILL CLINTON ISSUE" (8/26/96) of The
SPOTLIGHT weekly conservative-populist newspaper [subscription info:
(202) 546-5621] for a tough-hitting four-column story accompanied by
several fascinating photos.
  In it you'll find reproductions (no pun intended!) of portions of
several reports from other publications, including photos of Governor
Clinton's alleged "Black Mistress" and the child she allegedly bore by
him (looks VERY much like his alleged father, btw.)
  "The magazine "Slick Times" has offered a $1 million award [hear that
Spielberg? -- JB] to anyone who can disprove its allegation that
Clinton has a . . .  son, mothered by a prostitute. No one has stepped
forward."
  Another section of The SPOTLIGHT article quotes alleged ex-WJC
mistress, Hillary look-alike Sally Perdue, thusly: 

           "When I see him now, president of the United States, 
            meeting world leaders, I can't believe it," said Sally     
            Miller Perdue, a former Arkansas beauty queen . . . "I     
            still have this picture of him, wearing my black nightgown,
            playing the sax badly . . . How do you expect me to take   
            him seriously?"

The SPOTLIGHT
subscription info: (202) 546-5621


-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 21:36:21 PDT 1996
Article: 307946 of talk.politics.guns
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.culture.usa,talk.bizarre,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,alt.folklore.urban,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton is a womanizer.
Date: 5 Sep 1996 00:57:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <50l8id$bet@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <322D3CBB.69B9@pcez.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca22-18.ix.netcom.com
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In <322D3CBB.69B9@pcez.com> sjdavis@pcez.com writes: 
>
>I do not see how any woman could vote for Bill Clinton after seeing
>what kinda jerk he is to woman.  He cheated on his wife and has a
>sexual harassment charge going on against him now.

  That's the least of it.
  See the recent "SPECIAL BILL CLINTON ISSUE" (8/26/96) of The
SPOTLIGHT weekly conservative-populist newspaper [subscription info:
(202) 546-5621] for a tough-hitting four-column story accompanied by
several fascinating photos.
  In it you'll find reproductions (no pun intended!) of portions of
several reports from other publications, including photos of Governor
Clinton's alleged "Black Mistress" and the child she allegedly bore by
him (looks VERY much like his alleged father, btw.)
  "The magazine "Slick Times" has offered a $1 million award [hear that
Spielberg? -- JB] to anyone who can disprove its allegation that
Clinton has a . . .  son, mothered by a prostitute. No one has stepped
forward."
  Another section of The SPOTLIGHT article quotes alleged ex-WJC
mistress, Hillary look-alike Sally Perdue, thusly: 

           "When I see him now, president of the United States, 
            meeting world leaders, I can't believe it," said Sally     
            Miller Perdue, a former Arkansas beauty queen . . . "I     
            still have this picture of him, wearing my black nightgown,
            playing the sax badly . . . How do you expect me to take   
            him seriously?"

The SPOTLIGHT
subscription info: (202) 546-5621


-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 23:30:14 PDT 1996
Article: 62445 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Spielberg: how much has he given USA?
Date: 5 Sep 1996 01:15:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <50l9ik$964@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50g819$nio@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50js8k$ps8@zap.io.org>
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In <50js8k$ps8@zap.io.org> kamamer@zap.io.org (karl mamer) writes: 
>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes:

>>   According to that logic, the American taxpayers should give every
>> U.S. individual or business which successfully markets his/her/it's
>> products or services overseas a grant of $1 million because their
>> efforts, in your words, "have generated hundreds of millions of tax
>> dollars and employed thousands."
>>   There are lots and lots of successful international businesses in
>>the U.S. -- every one, according to your simplistic logic, is
>>entitled to a $1 million handout.

>Actually, yes. It's called a charitable donation tax credit.

  Ohhhhhhhhhhh! So Spielberg merely got a "charitable donation tax
credit"? (not!)
  You silly obfuscatin' fewl!

>Many
>corporations give to registered charities that amuse them
>and enjoy a healthy tax break, at joebuck average's expense.
>I'm sure there are many Jewish charities that you contribute
>to out of your tax dollars via the charitable donation 
>tax credit. 

  Personally, I oppose giving special tax benefits/breaks to ANY
particular church or religious group, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, et
al. (Even though I'm actually a member of one, The Roman Catholic
Church.)
  How "kooky" of me!
  Tax 'em like everyone else, I say.


-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 23:30:15 PDT 1996
Article: 62465 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 5 Sep 1996 00:19:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 87
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References: <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <50e6an$3jd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50h2h9$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50h849$1n3@panix2.panix.com> <50ijvj$e13@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> 
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In  kate@accessone.com (Kathleen
Mulhern) writes: 

>T H E  A L L E G E D  G R A N T  W A S  G I V E N  T O  T H E  S H O A
H 
>F O U N D A T I O N ... 
>N O T  T O  S T E V E N  S P I E L B E R G .

  And exactly WHO is the F O U N D E R of the S H O A 
F O U N D A T I O N ? 

  S T E P H E N  S P I E L B E R G.
  D        U        H       !      :-)



>And yet, for some reason (hmmm) the government has seen
>fit to provide the Betty Ford Center with grants. 

  Which is also wrong.
  If Betty Ford want's to go on an ego trip, let her do so using
private funds.
  As it is, her namesake clinic, it would seem, essentially caters to
affluent celebs.
  Why should $5.50-an-hour-earning American workers subsidize such a
country club for wealthy substance abusers?
  However, it would not surprise me in the least if you, in a typical
display of fuzzy-headedness/naivete/silliness answered that question by
saying something to the effect, "Well, those drug-abusing celebrities
who go to the betty Ford Clinic to dry out HAVE GIVEN SOOOOOOOOOO MUCH
TO THE NATION! HOW COULD *ANYONE* OPPOSE THEIR RECEIVING
PUBLICALLY-FUNDED TREATMENT FOR THEIR ADDICTIONS?"    
  This is basically equivalent to your repeated screams that Spielberg
has given soooooooooo much to the nation, that he's basically
*entitled* to a $1 million handout, and that anyone who disagrees is an
"antisemite![tm]."

> Spielberg sank most of the profits from "Schindler's List" (the
>portion that did not getdonated to other Holocaust memorials and
>foundations) into the beginning of Shoah, all of the profits from the
>TNT documentary "Survivors of the Holocaust," and a great deal of
>personal funds.  This fact I have brought up time and time again, yet
>you refuse to acknowledge it.  Why?

  Fact is, I've acknowledged it ad infinitum. Since you disagree with
me about the innapropriateness of giving Spielberg $1 million you've
chosen to ignore it, however.
  I couldn't care less, as a taxpayer, that Spielberg "sank" his
profits from that movie into charities HE wanted to fund. Doing so was
HIS choice.
  Because he freely gave lots of his own dough to HIS preferred
charities, now ALL U.S. taxpayers MUST give HIM $1 million?
  No way.
  Did Spielberg "sink" any of his profits into the fight against the
American Holocaust that's going on RIGHT NOW, the horror of ABORTION?
  "No."
  Why not?
  "He didn't WANT to."
  Well, I *don't want to* BE FORCED to give $.25, $.01 or 1/4 of one
cent to Spielberg for HIS pet projects.
  How utterly IRONIC, btw, that Spielberg is SILENT about the Abortion
Holocaust but OBSESSED with a Holocaust that, though terrible, was not
even the WORST Holocaust of the century and ocurred over a half-century
ago.
   
>The Shoah Foundation is an educational project that serves the public
>good, therefore is eligible for federal grants.  If you don't like it,
>move.

  No, if I don't like it, I QUESTION it on the Internet.
  I CRITICIZE it on the Internet.
  I EXPOSE it on the Internet.

> Or is it because the director of the CIA is not Jewish that you leave
>them alone in your witch hunts and rantings?

  Actually, I think the DCIA *IS* Jewish. 
  DUH x 2! :-)
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep  5 22:20:45 PDT 1996
Article: 62782 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Repost: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:15:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <50o50i$ddg@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <50e6an$3jd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50h2h9$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50h849$1n3@panix2.panix.com> <50ijvj$e13@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>  <50l6a0$ene@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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>In  kate@accessone.com (Kathleen
>Mulhern) writes: 
>
>>T H E  A L L E G E D  G R A N T  W A S  G I V E N  T O  T H E  S H O
A
>H 
>>F O U N D A T I O N ... 
>>N O T  T O  S T E V E N  S P I E L B E R G .
>
>  And exactly WHO is the F O U N D E R of the S H O A 
>F O U N D A T I O N ? 
>
>  S T E P H E N  S P I E L B E R G.
>  D        U        H       !      :-)
>
>
>
>>And yet, for some reason (hmmm) the government has seen
>>fit to provide the Betty Ford Center with grants. 
>
>  Which is also wrong.
>  If Betty Ford want's to go on an ego trip, let her do so using
>private funds.
>  As it is, her namesake clinic, it would seem, essentially caters to
>affluent celebs.
>  Why should $5.50-an-hour-earning American workers subsidize such a
>country club for wealthy substance abusers?
>  However, it would not surprise me in the least if you, in a typical
>display of fuzzy-headedness/naivete/silliness answered that question
by
>saying something to the effect, "Well, those drug-abusing celebrities
>who go to the betty Ford Clinic to dry out HAVE GIVEN SOOOOOOOOOO MUCH
>TO THE NATION! HOW COULD *ANYONE* OPPOSE THEIR RECEIVING
>PUBLICALLY-FUNDED TREATMENT FOR THEIR ADDICTIONS?"    
>  This is basically equivalent to your repeated screams that Spielberg
>has given soooooooooo much to the nation, that he's basically
>*entitled* to a $1 million handout, and that anyone who disagrees is
an
>"antisemite![tm]."
>
>> Spielberg sank most of the profits from "Schindler's List" (the
>>portion that did not getdonated to other Holocaust memorials and
>>foundations) into the beginning of Shoah, all of the profits from the
>>TNT documentary "Survivors of the Holocaust," and a great deal of
>>personal funds.  This fact I have brought up time and time again, yet
>>you refuse to acknowledge it.  Why?
>
>  Fact is, I've acknowledged it ad infinitum. Since you disagree with
>me about the innapropriateness of giving Spielberg $1 million you've
>chosen to ignore it, however.
>  I couldn't care less, as a taxpayer, that Spielberg "sank" his
>profits from that movie into charities HE wanted to fund. Doing so was
>HIS choice.
>  Because he freely gave lots of his own dough to HIS preferred
>charities, now ALL U.S. taxpayers MUST give HIM $1 million?
>  No way.
>  Did Spielberg "sink" any of his profits into the fight against the
>American Holocaust that's going on RIGHT NOW, the horror of ABORTION?
>  "No."
>  Why not?
>  "He didn't WANT to."
>  Well, I *don't want to* BE FORCED to give $.25, $.01 or 1/4 of one
>cent to Spielberg for HIS pet projects.
>  How utterly IRONIC, btw, that Spielberg is SILENT about the Abortion
>Holocaust but OBSESSED with a Holocaust that, though terrible, was not
>even the WORST Holocaust of the century and ocurred over a
half-century
>ago.
>   
>>The Shoah Foundation is an educational project that serves the public
>>good, therefore is eligible for federal grants.  If you don't like
it,
>>move.
>
>  No, if I don't like it, I QUESTION it on the Internet.
>  I CRITICIZE it on the Internet.
>  I EXPOSE it on the Internet.
>
>> Or is it because the director of the CIA is not Jewish that you
leave
>>them alone in your witch hunts and rantings?
>
>  Actually, I think the DCIA *IS* Jewish. 
>  DUH x 2! :-)
>-- 
>
> . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . .
 . . . . . . . . . .
>"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW:
THAT'S 
>my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray."
 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
> . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . .
 . . . . . . . . . . 
> . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . .
 . . . . . . . . . .
>    
>                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep  6 07:51:08 PDT 1996
Article: 85600 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Fwd: Conspiracy Theories Rife in Mexican Assassination
Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:55:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 160
Message-ID: <50o7bp$dc1@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50np4b$bse@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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Forwarded msg:

In <50np4b$bse@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> bigxc@prairienet.org (Brian Redman)
writes: 
>
>
>
>CONSPIRACY THEORIES RIFE IN MEXICAN ASSASSINATION
>By Colin McMahon
>(Chicago Tribune, August 20, 1996, page 1)
>
>Mexico City -- Mexicans  call  it  simply "the Colosio case," the
>tangled web  of  mysteries  and  intrigue  surrounding  the  1994
>assassination   of  Luis  Donaldo  Colosio,  the  ruling  party's
>presidential candidate.
>
>One man has been  convicted  as  Colosio's assassin, but that has
>not laid persistent conspiracy theories to  rest.   Investigators
>and  special  prosecutors assigned to probe the political killing
>seem to come and go without effect.
>
>And the bodies of those who  brush against the case keep stacking
>up.
>
>The brutal weekend murder of a federal prosecutor  --  the  first
>official who interrogated Colosio's convicted assassin -- brought
>the grim tally to 10.
>
>*El  Caso  Colosio* is Mexico's equivalent of the John F. Kennedy
>assassination.  But even die-hard  JFK conspiracy theorists might
>be overwhelmed by the twists and turns of this political slaying.
>
>Colosio, 44,  was  the  presidential  candidate  for  the  ruling
>Institutional  Revolutionary Party, known as the PRI, and as such
>he was almost assured of becoming Mexico's next leader.
>
>But on March 23, 1994, a  bullet  to  the head and another to the
>abdomen ended Colosio's life while he was campaigning in Tijuana.
>Ernesto  Zedillo  Ponce  de  Leon,  Colosio's  campaign  manager,
>succeeded him, and the new PRI  candidate  went  on  to  win  the
>presidency six months later.
>
>Now  it  rests  with  the Zedillo government to solve the Colosio
>mystery. So far, it has failed.
>
>Federal prosecutors assert that Colosio was the victim of a plot,
>yet they have won a conviction against only one man, Mario Aburto
>Martinez, a despondent factory  worker  who confessed to shooting
>the candidate in the head and has been sentenced to 45  years  in
>prison.
>
>In  the hectic hours after Colosio was assassinated, Jesus Romero
>Magana played a key role by being the first federal prosecutor to
>interrogate Aburto.
>
>Romero, 45, who lived in Tijuana, was shot 14 times near midnight
>Saturday outside his front door,  and police suspect that because
>there was no sign of  a  struggle,  Romero  may  have  known  his
>assailants.
>
>The  grisly  slaying  brought  to  mind  the death of Jose Arturo
>Ochoa, who ran  the  federal  attorney  general's  office in Baja
>California state and was part of that first interrogation team as
>well.  On April 17, Ochoa was jogging in Tijuana when he was shot
>twice in the head and twice in the back.
>
>The eight other Colosio-linked deaths include that of the Tijuana
>police chief, who was conducting his  own  investigation  of  the
>killing;  a  commander  and  a  former  commander  of the federal
>judicial police and  a  lawyer  who  represented  a second murder
>defendant who was later acquitted.
>
>No evidence has been produced to tie any of these deaths directly
>to the Colosio case.  In some cases, the links  were  tangential.
>In  others,  the victims were involved in unrelated activities --
>such as prosecuting drug traffickers -- that might have made them
>targets for assassination.
>
>Yet the sheer number  of  deaths  has investigators exploring the
>possibility of a Colosio connection.
>
>One favorite conspiracy theory,  assiduously  denied  by  federal
>authorities,  is  that the Aburto in prison is an imposter.  Some
>contend that the  man  who  was  photographed being subdued after
>shooting Colosio is not Aburto and  that  the  real  shooter  was
>killed to cover up the plot.
>
>Meanwhile,  seven  members   of   Aburto's  family  were  granted
>political asylum last month in California.
>
>Various theories of the assassination  and  its  aftermath,  some
>half-baked,  some  quite  plausible, surface from time to time in
>the Mexican press.
>
>One scenario involved a  federal  agent  who  was alleged to have
>killed Colosio and then was executed  himself.   The  agent  shot
>that one down, however, when he showed up in Mexico City and said
>he  was  alive,  well  and  recently  married.   His  absence was
>accounted for by a honeymoon.
>
>Two weeks ago, a federal  judge dealt prosecutors a stunning blow
>when he acquitted and freed Othon Cortes Vazquez, a low-level PRI
>worker accused of being a second gunman.  Fearing for  his  life,
>Cortes  has  since  received special protection from human rights
>officials.
>
>The acquittal  devastated  the  multiple-gunmen conspiracy theory
>and led Zedillo to remove the special prosecutor in the case.
>
>When a new investigator takes over, he or  she  will  become  the
>fourth  to  head  the  inquiry.  But the new appointment may take
>awhile.  In the last  week,  officials  have floated the names of
>four people as possible replacements. All four quickly declined.
>
>It is not so much that they fear  for  their  personal  security,
>according  to  observers.   But  they  see  the Colosio case as a
>no-win situation, a political graveyard.
>
>Polls show that the vast majority of Mexicans believe Colosio was
>the victim  of  a  far-reaching  plot,  probably  engineered by a
>faction of his own ruling party.
>
>Any result that falls short of that  perception,  no  matter  how
>thorough,  is  likely  to  be  rejected  as  a  cover-up, just as
>millions of Americans refuse  to  believe  that Lee Harvey Oswald
>acted alone in killing Kennedy.
>
>Alternatively, if the perception turns  out  to  be  grounded  in
>reality,  and  some  of  the  nation's  most powerful forces were
>involved in Colosio's  slaying,  few  Mexicans  expect that these
>people would ever be brought to justice.
>
>Seeking to rally support behind the  investigation,  Zedillo  has
>asked legislators from the four leading political parties to join
>in naming a new special prosecutor.
>
>But  the  leading  leftist  party  has pulled out of the process,
>accusing  Zedillo  of  showing  no  desire  to  solve  the  case.
>Instead, opponents say, he is merely  trying to wash his hands of
>the whole troubled affair.
>
>
>Brian Redman       | bigred@shout.net | ftp.shout.net 
pub/users/bigred
>Editor-in-Chief    | ---------------Phone:
217-356-4418----------------
>Conspiracy Nation  |       "The perfect slave thinks he's free."
>
>
>--

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep  7 09:23:23 PDT 1996
Article: 63078 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 7 Sep 1996 02:26:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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References: <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <50e6an$3jd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50h2h9$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50h849$1n3@panix2.panix.com> <50ijvj$e13@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>  <50l6a0$ene@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> 
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In  kate@accessone.com (Kathleen
Mulhern) writes: 
[snip]

>*  Did Spielberg "sink" any of his profits into the fight against the
>*American Holocaust that's going on RIGHT NOW, the horror of ABORTION?
>*  "No."
>*  Why not?
>*  "He didn't WANT to."
>*  Well, I *don't want to* BE FORCED to give $.25, $.01 or 1/4 of one
>*cent to Spielberg for HIS pet projects.
>*  How utterly IRONIC, btw, that Spielberg is SILENT about the
>*Abortion Holocaust but OBSESSED with a Holocaust that, though
>*terrible, was not even the WORST Holocaust of the century and ocurred
>*over a half-century ago.

>Oh PAAAAH-LEEEEEEASE!!!!!  I could answer this... I could get into
this
>debate with you... but, for the sake of keeping the thread consistent
(you
>seem to be doing everything in your power to try to divert attention
away
>from people proving you wrong and your allegations unfounded again and
>again and again) I will refrain.

  Now *that's* genuinely amusing, coming from the same person who --
apparently realizing her argument has repeatedly been shown to be
rather naive/shallow/not-well-thought-out -- has continued to bring in
the funding of the CIA, of all things, as a distraction! :-)

>Go to alt.flame.abortion if you want to spew this filth.  This is
>certainly not the thread for it, nor the newsgroup, for that matter.

  Truly, I pity you.
  You're so profoundly ignorant, so incredibly closed-minded, that you
cannot see what even the founder of Planned Parenthood acknowledged in
the strongest terms in her writing: namely, that abortion is an
absolute HORROR . . . and a REAL, CONTEMPORARY HOLOCAUST, if there ever
was one.
  
>*  No, if I don't like it, I QUESTION it on the Internet.
>*  I CRITICIZE it on the Internet.
>*  I EXPOSE it on the Internet.

>*  Actually, I think the DCIA *IS* Jewish. 
>*  DUH x 2! :-)
>
>What's his name?  Do you know this for a fact?

  Deutch. 
  Name was officially changed some years ago (1960s?).
  Was one of Robert McNamara's "Best and the Brightest" [guffaw] who
got the U.S. into the quagmire of Vietnam.
  Laid-low in academia for years, understandably, after that shameful
debacle.
  Father was a wealthy Washington insider with close ties to Israel's
Mossad.
  Appointed Director of CIA by Clinton.
  Don't ask me what his dog's name is, look it up yourself, lazy. 

>-- 
>kate@accessone.com
>"It's not so much the apocolypse as it is the humidity."
>                           -Joel Hodgson

joebuck@ix.netcom.com
"It's not so much liberals' naivete as it is their hypocrisy."
              
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep  7 09:56:52 PDT 1996
Article: 28646 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!EU.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: FWD: THE DAY BILL CLINTON GETS RE-ELECTED......
Date: 7 Sep 1996 02:31:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <50qmpu$q5m@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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In  endiz@hand.soon writes:

>
>......IS THE DAY AMERICA DRAWS HER FINAL BREATH AS A FREE NATION.

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep  7 10:28:34 PDT 1996
Article: 85765 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!ratty.wolfe.net!news.aa.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Senator Boxer asks for Investigation of CIA (fwd)
Date: 6 Sep 1996 04:13:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 176
Message-ID: <50o8e1$oee@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 11:13:53 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:85765 alt.politics.org.cia:12947 alt.politics.usa.republican:274532 alt.politics.perot:54815 alt.politics.radical-left:116849

  I want to express my respect and admiration for Senator Boxer who,
although Jewish, risked sending a message of support to be read at the
unveiling of the statue of murdered Palestinian-American civil rights
leader/poet Alex Odeh, who was blown up when a pipe bomb exploded as he
opened up his Santa Ana office one morning.
  I think it's fair to assume that Senator Boxer, by her humane action,
risked alienating many of her previous financial donors when she wrote
a few lines in memory of Odeh. 
  Odeh's three suspected killers are widely believed to now be living
in Israel, which refuses to extradite them to the United States.
  The U.S. Justice Department is now offering a $1 million reward for
information leading to their conviction.
  Several Jewish-American protesters loudly demonstrated last week
against the U.S. Government's offering of the reward money at a press
conference in front of Odeh's moving statue, located directly in front
of the Santa Ana, California public library.
  According to an article in last Wednesday's in Orange County Register
newspaper, one Jewish protester, Howard Garber, "brought tears to the
eyes of Odeh's widow and daughter."
   
In  Lloyd
Miller  writes: 
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 09:52:44 -0500 (CDT)
>From: Brian Redman 
>To: Conspiracy Nation 
>Subject: Senator Boxer asks for Investigation of CIA (fwd)
>
>
>Thanks to Linda Thompson and AEN News for the following.
>
>Brian Redman       | bigred@shout.net | ftp.shout.net 
pub/users/bigred
>Editor-in-Chief    | ---------------Phone:
217-356-4418----------------
>Conspiracy Nation  |       "The perfect slave thinks he's free."
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 5 Sep 96 07:49 EST
>From: Linda Thompson 
>To: aen-news@aen.org
>Subject: Senator Boxer asks for Investigation of CIA
>
>
>From: Duane Roberts 
>Subject: CIA Director John Deutch gets a letter from Senator Barbara
Boxer
>Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 01:05:53 -0700
>
>----------------------------------------------
>The following text is from a letter originally
>delivered to John Deutch, Director of the
>Central Intelligence Agency, on Wednesday,
>August 28, 1996, by Barbara Boxer, Member of
>the United States Senate, California.
>---------------------------------------------
>
>
>   The Honorable John M. Deutch
>   Director of Central Intelligence
>   Washington, DC 20505
>
>   Dear Dr. Deutch:
>
>   I am writing to ask that you investigate allegations about CIA
involvement
>   in the illegal drug trade. A three-part series published last week
by
>   the San Jose Mercury News charges that the CIA tolerated, if not
>   promoted, crack cocaine sales as a means to finance Nicaraguan
>   revolutionaries in the early 1980s.
>
>   Specifically, the Mercury News charges that the Fuerza Democratica
>   Nicaraguense FDN - the largest of the groups known collectively as
the
>   Contras - raised millions by selling cocaine to drug dealers in
>   California at the same time that the crack epidemic was beginning.
>   Federal, state and county law enforcement agencies investigating
>   California's largest crack cocaine rings have complained that their
>   operations were mysteriously thwarted. Several people close to the
>   investigations have openly speculated that the CIA had compromised
their
>   investigations in an effort to sustain the Contras.
>
>   As you know, this is not the first time allegations of this kind
have
>   surfaced. For over a decade, rumors of a Contra-CIA cocaine
connection
>   have persisted. I believe that these questions can be put to rest
only by
>   a candid and thorough investigation of the facts. I urge you to
conduct
>   such an investigation and make your findings public.
>
>   Although the tragic situation described in this series of articles
>   predates your leadership of the CIA, we must continue to insist
that
>   the whole truth be known. Crack cocaine has destroyed countless
>   lives, and even the notion that the U.S. Government was involved in
>   trafficking is sickening.
>
>   Thank you for your attention, and I look forward to your timely
response.
>
>   Sincerely,
>
>   Barbara Boxer
>   United States Senator
>
>
>
>Kind regards,
>
>********************  V  ***************************
>       DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER.
>***************************************************
>Linda Thompson
>
>Dr. Linda Thompson
>American Justice Federation
>Internet:  lindat@iquest.net
>
>****************************************************
>       Remember Waco.
>  The Murderers are still free.
>
>****************************************************
>    PATRIOT and PROUD.
>****************************************************
>Patriot. n. a person who loves his native country and will do all he
can for it.
>
>The New Lexicon Webster's Dictionary of the English Language,
>1991 Deluxe Encyclopedic Edition.
>***************************************************
>       Remember Oklahoma.
>The real bombers are running our country.
>****************************************************
>TRAVEL, SEE THE WORLD AND GET
> FREE DRUGS!!!  Inquire at CIA for details!
>
>Forwarded for Comments and Discussion, Not Necessarily Endorsed by:
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>//////////FREE RARE BOOK SEARCH: http://a-albionic.com/search.html
\\\\\\\\\
>Lloyd Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273,
>Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for
the
>entire political-ideological spectrum.  Quarterly journal, book sales,
>rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly
Up-date
>Lists & E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs, &
resources.
>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\*/////////////////////////////////
/////
>**E-Mail Update/Discussion/Archive**|*******World Wide
Web/Gopher/FTP*******
>  mailto:majordomo@mail.msen.com    |         http://a-albionic.com/
>  message text: info prj            |
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>////  http://msen.com/~lloyd/ //////*\\\\\\
mailto:lloyd@a-albionic.com \\\\
>
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep  7 10:28:36 PDT 1996
Article: 85766 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 9 Num. 05
Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:50:05 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 149
Message-ID: <50o71d$9sk@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50mq8q$9p1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 10:50:05 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:85766 alt.activism:73433 alt.politics.usa.republican:274533 alt.politics.perot:54816 alt.politics.radical-left:116850

  You mean that $50 billion of the U.S. taxpayers' money that President
Clinton (illegally, according to many legal authorities) gave to the
ultra-corrupt government of Mexico didn't turn things around there?
  I say: contact the Swiss banks where the corrupt murderous Mexican
elites secreted that $50 billion and tell 'em we want our money back!
  But what do I know? I'm just a "right-wing extremist/U.S.-taxpayer."
:-(

In <50mq8q$9p1@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> bigxc@prairienet.org (Brian Redman)
writes: 
>
>
>
>              Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 9  Num. 05
>             ======================================
>                    ("Quid coniuratio est?")
> 
> 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>STOP THE WITCH HUNT BY THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT!
>==============================================
>[La  Jornada,   9/1/96.    Translation   by  Conspiracy  Nation.
>Prepared  statement  by  FAC-MLN,  El  Frente   Amplio   por   la
>Construccion del Movimiento para la Liberacion Nacional.]
> 
>Mexico  --  The  organizations and individuals joined together as
>FAC-MLN (El Frente Amplio por la Construccion del Movimiento para
>la  Liberacion  Nacional)  denounces  the  declarations  made  by
>government sub-secretary Arturo  Nunez  Jimenez, which constitute
>full proof of the witch hunt which the government is carrying out
>against the groups which are developing a democratic  alternative
>within the legal limits contained in our Constitution.
> 
>The government wants to put a stop to dissent and social protest,
>caused  by  its  own  anti-populist  politics,  by increasing the
>repression against our  organizations  and  their members through
>use   of   massive   and   selective   detention,    persecution,
>"disappearances"  and  jailings  of activists, whom they brutally
>torture in order to drag  out  from them "confessions" which make
>them appear responsible for the current unrest in Mexico.
> 
>The Secretary of Government tendentiously tries to  link  diverse
>entities  of  the FAC-MLN with the Popular Army of the Revolution
>(EPR, Ejercito  Popular  Revolucionario)  in  order  to hide that
>those uniquely and truly responsible for the  popular  discontent
>and  for  the causes which have given birth to these armed groups
>is the government itself,  which through its neo-liberal economic
>policies has plunged Mexico into the most profound crisis in  its
>history.
> 
>There  is now a campaign by the government to distort, twist, and
>mis-represent our national political  reality in order to confuse
>public opinion so as  to  justify  its  criminal  and  repressive
>politics.
> 
>The  existence  of  armed  dissident  movements  in Mexico is the
>result of  misery,  inequality,  injustice, impunity, corruption,
>lack of democracy and collapse of the rule of law which  prevails
>in  our  nation  and  for  which  the only one responsible is the
>government itself.  But this  government,  rather than offering a
>solution, instead increases repression and  blames  some  of  our
>groups  for  the  situation,  pointing  to them as "radicals" and
>"subversives" and as being  behind  armed  dissidents such as the
>EPR.
> 
>We ask:  Is it radical to exercise the  political  liberties  and
>rights  contained in our Constitution?  Is it radical to fight to
>achieve a better quality of  life  and livelihood for our people?
>Is  it  radical  to  want  to  end  the  misery,  injustice,  and
>oppression with which the government has tried to oppose us?   Is
>it  radical  to  fight  to  make  valid a true rule of law in our
>country?  Is  it  radical  to  fight  for  liberty,  justice, and
>democracy?  Is it radical to demand work, better  pay,  and  that
>our  children  will  have a dignified life, education, health and
>well-being?  Is it radical to  oppose our people being massacred,
>persecuted, jailed, tortured and  assassinated,  by  fighting  to
>obtain  better  economic and social conditions?  Is it radical to
>demonstrate our  protest  and  dissent  against the anti-populist
>politics and sub-human conditions to  which  the  government  has
>submitted us?
> 
>We think not.  To deny a people its right to live is to deny them
>their  right  to  demonstrate  and  to  fight  to make real their
>passion for justice,  democracy  and  liberty.   This is not just
>unjust, it  is  criminal.   We  are  not  about  to  abandon  our
>passions,  nor  to abandon our struggle to achieve them.  We will
>continue to make  use  of  the  rights  conferred  upon us by our
>Constitution, demonstrating in the streets,  before  our  people,
>and denouncing the government as the only one responsible for the
>situation in which we are living and for any violence suffered by
>our groups or their members.
> 
>We  denounce  before the national and international community the
>government repression and  its  police  and military institutions
>being used against the people.  The government will not  be  able
>to  silence  our  voices  nor  halt our struggle to make real our
>constitutional rights.
> 
>We demand that the government  put  an  end to the armed conflict
>which exists in Mexico by redressing the  causes  which  gave  it
>birth  and  not  by increasing the militarization of our country,
>nor increasing repression and  massacre  against our people as it
>is now doing.
> 
>We call upon the people  of  Mexico,  the  political  and  social
>organizations,   the   political   parties,   the   human  rights
>organizations, to  help  show  our  repudiation  of the political
>violence of this regime which is contrary to the interests of our
>people.  The government wants to annul and to drown in blood  our
>right  to struggle for a life with liberty, equality, justice and
>democracy.
> 
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>--

-- 

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From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep  7 10:28:37 PDT 1996
Article: 85770 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.perot,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Conspiracy: Where's the Proof?
Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:38:27 GMT
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In <50ll2u$q9i@news3.realtime.net> nancyk@bga.com (Nancy K) writes: 

>CONSPIRACY: WHERE’S THE PROOF?

>Is there any hard evidence of an Insider plot for a "new world order"?
>
>"Conspiracy theory is doing America real harm. Long incubating
>underground, 

  Ha! Recall the late-1960s, when the term "underground" denoted, to
the Liberal-Left (same sh#t) media, "chic." 

it has grown into the greatest enslaver of human minds
>since communism. 
[snip]

>It turns millions of Americans against their own country. It
>undermines foreign policy by vilifying our government’s every effort."
>
>Ira Straus                           
>Christian Science Monitor

  I LOVE IT!
  Where the hell were YOU, Mr. Straus, during the anti-U.S.
demonstrations of the late 60s, when the U.S. flag was literally burned
in the streets, while the Viet Cong flag was raised?
  "Undermining foreign policy"? "Vilifying our government's every
effort"?
  In case you didn't notice, someone who did PRECISELY that during the
1960s is now the President of the United States, incredibly -- and,
like you, Mr. Straus, has become quite the government apologist in his
old age . . . now that HE's the Establishment.
  Seems to me like Clinton and Straus would get along fabulously.
  
[snip]
>The Straus essay, "When Conspiracy Theory Replaces Thought," is
>subtitled, "The U.S. is threatened by Americans who believe Washington
>is part of a plot to enslave us in a ‘New World Order,’" 

  Nah, Washington would never do a bad thing like THAT, would it?
  The SAME Washington that gave us four and five generations of
families "enslaved" BY and "addicted" TO welfare?
  Waco?
  Vietnam?
  Watergate?
  
>and it is but
>one of the latest and most blatant volleys in an ongoing campaign by
>the establishment media to paint in blackest terms anyone who uses the
>dread "C" word.

[snip]
>Similar rantings spill out of False Patriots: The Threat of
>Anti-Government Extremists, a slick, 72-page smear by the Southern
>Poverty Law Center/Klanwatch, which is widely quoted in the media as
>an authoritative source on "right-wing" fanatics. "The Patriot
>movement," claims the SPLC diatribe, "is a potpourri of the American
>right, from members of the Christian Coalition to the Ku Klux Klan -
>people united by their hatred of the federal government."
>
>After thus employing the most rancid of tactics to unfairly associate
>everyone to the right of Bill and Hillary with violent KKK racists,
>the SPLC tract darkly warns: "If America is to be saved, Patriots
>believe, our government must be destroyed." Like Straus’ screeching
>monitory, the SPLC tirade warns that "Conspiracy theories fuel the
>[Patriot] movement": theories of a "New World Order," a "United
>Nations-dominated global government," and "an end to American
>sovereignty."
>
>By now it is a tiresomely familiar theme redundantly shrieked by the
>usual cacophonous chorus: Bill Clinton, Janet Reno, Louis Freeh, the
>New York Times, the Washington Post, Time magazine, Anthony Lewis,
>Molly Ivins, Frank Rich, Morris Dees, the Anti-Defamation League, the
>ACLU, etc. According to the frantic refrains of this querulous choir,
>those who mention "conspiracy" or oppose the "new world order" and the
>United Nations share culpability with those terrorists who bombed the
>Murrah Building in Oklahoma City.  They are, shrills the choir,
>"dangerous," "irrational," and "paranoid." Those who take a
>principled, courageous stand for limited, constitutional government,
>who seek change through legitimate, honorable means, and who speak out
>against the abuses and usurpations of big government, are denounced as
>"anti-government."
>
>Drawing the most practiced tactic from their slimy smear arsenal, the
>"liberals" attempt to silence all opposition and debate by falsely and
>cowardly tagging their adversaries with "fascist," "racist,"
>"anti-Semite," "Neo-Nazi," "KKK" labels. It is a performance worthy of
>Lenin, who wrote: "We can and must write in a language which sows
>among the masses hate, revulsion, scorn, and the like, toward those
>who disagree with us." And the most intense hate, revulsion, and scorn
>seems always reserved for anti-communists who see conspiracy.
>
>
>Attacks From "Conservatives"
>
>The liberal-left, to be sure, holds no monopoly on hysterical
>antagonism to "conspiracy theory." Many conservatives likewise erupt
>in paroxysms of pique at the mention of anything that may sound even
>remotely related to conspiracy. Or they roll their eyes and smirk in
>ostentatious displays of smug superiority to the poor unsophisticated
>fools who "fall for grossly simplistic answers to complex problems."
>
>Radio maestro Rush Limbaugh epitomizes this type of
>pseudo-sophisticate. The grand poohbah of broadcast blather and
>bombast reserves his most vitriolic ridicule for those who express
>belief in power politics, ruling elites, and the drive for world
>government, calling them "conspiracy wackos." Engaging in the kind of
>reductio ad absurdum for which "liberals" are infamous, Limbaugh
>offers his listeners a "pop quiz": "If Trilateralist A is driving West
>at 60 miles per hour and Trilateralist B is driving East at 75 miles
>per hour, how long will it take to control the country?" Or, even more
>typical of the liberal-left he claims to hate, he fabricates a straw
>man, falsely attributing positions to those he wishes to discredit, as
>in his repeated false claim that the John Birch Society has called
>"[William F.] Buckley a communist."
>
>A similar but more highbrow approach is found among conservative
>intellectuals such as Robert James Bidinotto, a longtime contributor
>to The Freeman and a lecturer for the respected Foundation for
>Economic Education (FEE). In a Freeman piece entitled "Conspiracy or
>Consensus?" Bidinotto takes issue with those who see "deliberate
>direction" in "a kind of powerful force dragging modern society down,"
>or who "deduce that the world is in the grip of a powerful,
>malevolently directed conspiracy." "Conspiracy theory" is wrong,
>Bidinotto explains, because it is based on "false logic," "naivete,"
>and "explanatory elasticity." "Yes - there is a powerful force
>dragging society down," he writes.  "But that undertow is not an
>international conspiracy; it’s an intellectual consensus. What
>conspiratorialists fail to appreciate is the power of ideas."
>
>Being a "conspiratorialist" who was once (long ago) an unwitting dupe
>of collectivist ideology and false "intellectual consensus," this
>writer fully appreciates the "power of ideas." However, what Bidinotto
>and his fellow "intellectual consensusists" fail to appreciate is the
>idea of power, and the will to power of evil men - men who combine and
>conspire to further their evil purposes, often using and promoting a
>fallacious "intellectual consensus."
>
>Yes, there are certifiably "wacko" conspiratorialists out there today
>promoting a dizzying array of theories about invasions by
>extraterrestrial creatures, UFO abductions, CIA assassination schemes,
>papal plots for world domination, Hitler clones in the Brazilian rain
>forest, etc. But are these any more "wacko" than this offering from
>Mr. Bidinotto:
>
>In the 1950s, the puppeteers of world events were supposedly the
>"international Communist conspiracy." The conspiracy was centrally
>directed from Moscow, from which it extended globally like the arms of
>an octopus. Iron discipline held the conspirators together; highly
>publicized feuds among various communist nations were merely clever
>propaganda, meant to lull the West into complacency.
>
>
>Recent Revelations
>
>Amazing! Absolutely amazing! Mr. Bidinotto’s mocking jab at the
>supposed anti-communist paranoia and hysteria of the 1950s is an
>incredibly oddly timed capitulation to the lies, innuendos, and
>treacherous deceits of the liberal-left - incredibly oddly timed
>because even many of the arch-avatars of the liberal-left pantheon are
>today acknowledging as true precisely what anti-communists were saying
>for decades and what Bidinotto now ridicules. Recently released
>documents from the Soviet archives and from the files of the U.S.
>National Security Agency (NSA) prove (as if more proof were necessary)
>far more than these charges. The documents released in 1995 from the
>Soviet archives, published in The Secret World of American Communism
>(Yale University), and the NSA’s "VENONA Project" show, for instance:
>
>· The American Communist Party (CPUSA) operated a clandestine
>apparatus called the "Brother-Sun" network which worked directly with
>Stalin’s NKVD to penetrate the Manhattan Project, steal U.S.  atom
>bomb secrets, and pass them to the Soviets.
> 
>· Much of the testimony of Whittaker Chambers about the huge
> Soviet secret underground apparatus in the U.S. was true. Chambers’
>credibility had been bitterly disputed by Alger Hiss’ supporters for
>decades.
>
>· Moscow heavily subsidized the CPUSA in its early years.    
> 
>· Millionaire industrialist Armand Hammer laundered Soviet subsidies
>to the CPUSA.
> 
>· Red "martyrs" Ethel and Julius Rosenberg were indeed Soviet spies
>and guilty of atomic espionage.
>
>
>
>As we have said, even many liberals have been forced to acknowledge
>these truths. In a lengthy article in the Washington Post (of all
>places) earlier this year, liberal columnist Nicholas Von Hoffman
>confessed: "The Age of McCarthyism, it turns out, was not the simple
>witch hunt of the innocent by the malevolent as two generations of
>high school and college students have been taught." Likewise, ABC
>correspondent and syndicated columnist Jeff Greenfield has noted: "The
>problem, of course, was that there were real witches - not in Salem,
>but in America. That is, there were people who believed that communism
>was the one true cause...and believed that in serving Moscow by spying
>on the United States they were serving a ‘higher good.’"
>
>However, today - as in decades past - American high school and college
>students are still subjected to the rabidly pro-Marxist,
>anti-anti-communist propaganda of subversive textbooks. When it comes
>to reading about communism, the Cold War, and related topics, their
>resources are still likely to be The Paranoid Style in American
>Politics, by Columbia University Professor Richard Hofstadter; The
>Politics of Unreason: Right-wing Extremism in America, 1790-1970, by
>Seymour Martin Lipset and Earl Raab; The Fear of Conspiracy, by
>Cornell University Professor David Brion Davis; Danger on the Right,
>by Benjamin R. Epstein and Arnold Forster of the Anti-Defamation
>League; The Great Fear, by David Caute; and other left-wing fare that
>has misguided the "intellectual consensus" of the past two
>generations.
>
>
>Communist Phenomenon
>
>Yes, Mr. Bidinotto, there was a communist conspiracy. And there is a
>communist conspiracy. Communism has been, and remains, the single most
>dramatically significant phenomenon of our century. It has enslaved
>billions of souls across our globe and has murdered between 100
>million and 300 million. Even if one accepts the notion that "the
>Soviet Empire disintegrated" (and we do not: see the article on page
>59), Communist China, Cuba, North Korea, and other militant "Peoples
>Republics" continue as before. And why should we now accept the
>received "wisdom" of Sovietologists, Sinologists, and other so-called
>"experts" who were terribly, dangerously, obstinately wrong for so
>many decades?
>
>In a 195l decision upholding the convictions of U.S. Communist Party
>leaders, the U.S. Supreme Court correctly labeled communism "a
>conspiracy." This was exactly the same conclusion arrived at by the
>Senate Internal Security Subcommittee in its comprehensive 1953 report
>entitled "Interlocking Subversion in Government Departments."
>
>In 1956, the House Committee on Un-American Activities issued a
>1,997-page document entitled The Communist Conspiracy: Strategy and
>Tactics of World Communism, which substantiated in meticulous detail
>the terrible enormity, nature, and deeds of the global communist
>criminal operation. That same year, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover
>stated that in confronting communism, "the individual is handicapped
>by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot
>believe it exists."
>
>But we need not harken only to "right-wing" sources to establish this
>point. V.I. Lenin himself, in his famous instructions What Is to Be
>Done?, confirmed with his words what was obvious from his deeds:
>"According to its form a strong revolutionary organization may also be
>described as a conspirative organization...and we must have the utmost
>conspiracy for an organization of that kind.  Secrecy is such a
>necessary condition...that all other conditions (number, and selection
>of members, functions, etc.) must all be subordinated to it."
>
>Why is this so important to understand? Because in fighting the evils
>of communism (and its many collectivist permutations) it is imperative
>- as in any battle - to know one’s enemy. It has been said that
>"communism is not an ideology in which men believe, but a conspiracy
>in which men participate." That being an amply proven fact, it is the
>height of folly to persist in the belief that it is solely "on the
>battlefield of ideas that the fate of the world will be decided."
>Honest dupes and misguided idealists may be intellectually converted,
>that is true, but those who have consciously chosen evil are not
>likely to be converted by "ideas." They must be morally and
>spiritually converted, or restrained by force. Sending missionaries
>into troubled areas to help keep youngsters from going into a life of
>crime may be a wise preventive measure, but without an essential
>police presence with adequate investigation and enforcement efforts,
>common hoods and organized criminal elements will soon overwhelm the
>unprotected.
>
>
>Defining the Terms
>
>In his instructions to the jury in the trial of Soviet atom bomb spies
>Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Judge Irving R. Kaufman gave this
>important explanation of conspiracy:
>
>For two or more persons to conspire, confederate or combine together
>to commit or cause to be committed a breach of the criminal law of the
>United States is an offense of grave character which involves a
>plotting to subvert the law. It is almost always characterized by
>secrecy, rendering detection difficult and requiring much time for its
>discovery. Because of this the statute has made a conspiracy to commit
>a crime a distinct offense from the crime itself. From the point of
>view of the law there is danger to the public when two or more people
>conspire to do something that is unlawful because by virtue of the
>aggregation of numbers the intent assumes a more formidable
>disadvantageous aspect to the public.
>
>The "aggregation of numbers" acting in secret to carry out unlawful
>acts does indeed multiply the danger, making it far more formidable.
>"What is a conspiracy?" Judge Kaufman asked, and then answered, "A
>conspiracy may be defined as a combination of two or more persons, by
>concerted action, to accomplish a criminal and unlawful purpose, or
>some purpose not in itself unlawful or criminal, by criminal or
>unlawful means...."
>
>"However," he pointed out, "it is not necessary in order to constitute
>a conspiracy that two or more persons should meet together and enter
>into an explicit or formal agreement for an unlawful scheme, or that
>they should directly, by words or in writing, state what the unlawful
>scheme was to be, and the details of the plan or means by which the
>unlawful scheme was to be made effective." Kaufman explained:
>
>It is sufficient if two or more persons, in any manner, or through any
>contrivance, impliedly or tacitly, come to a mutual understanding to
>accomplish a common and unlawful design, knowing its object, and that
>one or more of them commit an overt act in furtherance of the
>conspiracy. In other words, where an unlawful end is sought to be
>effected and two or more persons, actuated by the common purpose of
>accomplishing that end, knowingly work together in any way in
>furtherance of the unlawful scheme, every one of said persons becomes
>a member of the conspiracy, although his part therein be a subordinate
>one, or be executed at a remote distance from the other conspirators.
>
>Notice that it is not necessary that all members of a conspiracy be on
>the same level, have the same motives, or the same knowledge of all
>operations, plans, and goals of the conspiracy. In fact, rarely is
>that the case. There is almost always a hierarchy in conspiracies of
>any size.
>
>Conspiracies are a fact of human nature, present throughout all of
>recorded history. Pick up a newspaper in virtually any city on almost
>any day of the week and you will find a story about a grand jury
>issuing indictments for conspiracy. Most people have no difficulty
>understanding and accepting this idea of conspiracy.  However, the
>idea of a global, self-perpetuating conspiracy - a conspiracy immense
>enough to manipulate and control governments and economies - seems to
>many a bit farfetched.
>
>
>Historical Precedents
>
>But it will not seem at all a foreign concept to those familiar with
>history, for there are ample precedents recorded of vast, powerful,
>transcontinental, transgenerational conspiracies. The diabolical cult
>of Thugee, for example, was as vile and dangerous a criminal
>conspiracy as has ever existed. The Thugs were a criminal secret
>society in India which combined robbery with religious devotion that
>involved ritual murder (usually by strangulation) and human sacrifice
>to the goddess Kali. This transgenerational criminal conspiracy
>thrived during the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, but is believed by
>some historians to date back as far as the 12th century. During their
>long reign of terror, the Thugs claimed countless victims and it took
>an all-out "war" by the British colonial government in the 1830s to
>finally deliver India from this terrible scourge.
>
>As notorious and fiendish as the Thugee was the secret and infamous
>order of the Assassins, whose very name posterity identifies with the
>most vile criminality. Founded by Hasan Saba in 1090 in Persia, the
>Assassins, or Hashishiyin (derived from their use of the narcotic
>hashish to ensnare and inculcate fanatical adepts) soon spread their
>malefic influence throughout Asia and the Middle East.  While
>professing fidelity to orthodox Islam and maintaining an outward
>facade of piety, Saba’s sect, through which initiates graduated in
>hierarchical degrees, was, in fact, an atheist-materialist cabal
>motivated by an insatiable lust for power. This sect perfected the use
>of murder, deception, corruption, and subversion to achieve its
>nefarious ends.
>
>
>Remember Capone?
>
>Closer to our own time, we are all somewhat familiar with the huge
>criminal conspiracy run by Al Capone. According to the World
>Encyclopedia of Organized Crime: "Capone was a murderous thug without
>remorse.... He was responsible for perhaps as many as one thousand or
>more murders, certainly hundreds. Worse, for a decade the city of
>Chicago embraced this bragging, boasting, strutting killer, its
>newspapers paying homage to him and quoting his every cretinous
>statement, its citizens - a goodly portion of the population - nodding
>tolerantly, if not approvingly, in his direction."
>
>With the fabulous wealth gained from his criminal enterprises, Capone
>bribed cops, judges, jurors, prosecutors, and reporters -and "gave
>generously to charity." Notes the Encyclopedia, "Capone spent money
>lavishly on himself and those about him, projecting the image of
>generosity, of a philanthropist to the common man. Old-timers in
>Chicago still pay his bloody memory offhand compliments about the
>so-called soup kitchens Capone established in Chicago during the
>Depression to feed the hungry, little realizing that the crime boss
>did this at the suggestion of attorneys attempting to improve his
>horrible reputation when he was being tried for income-tax evasion."
>Much of the public and many politicians were willfully blind, refusing
>to believe that Capone was in fact the evil crime lord his accusers
>made him out to be.
>
>So it was also with the crime bosses who followed after him. It wasn’t
>until after the New York State Police discovered a meeting of 61 top
>Mafia figures on November 14, 1957 at a house in Apalachin, New York,
>that the FBI, the International Association of Chiefs of Police
>(IACP), and many others in law enforcement even acknowledged the
>existence of the Mafia. Even J. Edgar Hoover had frequently denied
>that such an organized crime entity existed.  "They’re just a bunch of
>hoodlums," he would comment. Likewise, politicians, prosecutors, and
>journalists would dismiss talk of a Mafia with international ties,
>blood oaths, and family structure as the product of the lurid
>imaginings of pulp fiction writers.
>
>This writer once interviewed a chief of police who had pioneered in
>the investigation of the U.S. Mafia and who told of his exasperation
>over the years at trying to convince his IACP colleagues of the
>existence of the Mob, and of his equal frustration with those who
>admitted to knowledge of the Mafia but would not publicly say so, nor
>launch a concerted law enforcement drive against these organized
>forces of evil.
>
>Not until 1963, when Mafia defector Joseph Valachi testified before
>the Senate Rackets Committee, did we even learn the name the mafiosi
>themselves applied to their criminal syndicate: Cosa Nostra - "Our
>Thing."
>
>The most infamous mobster since Capone is John Gotti. Even though his
>rise to the top of New York’s Gambino crime family left behind a trail
>of corpses, the "Teflon Don," as he was glamorized in the press,
>seemed untouchable. Time after time he skated free, basking in the
>glory of his celebrity and mockingly protesting his total innocence.
>His attorneys and defenders sneered at charges that he was involved in
>any criminal enterprise. Gotti was merely a hardworking plumbing
>salesman and garment center entrepreneur, a family man who lived by
>modest means, they argued. "He’s only on trial because the government
>hates it that people love him," declared Carlo Vaccarrezza, his loyal
>adman.
>
>When Gotti was finally convicted on RICO charges in 1992, throngs of
>supporters "spontaneously" materialized outside the courthouse with
>"Free John Gotti" and "We Love You, John" placards. When the verdict
>was announced, the thousand-or-so "demonstrators" rioted on cue,
>overturning police cars, smashing shop windows, and battling the
>police. Perhaps this made-to-order mayhem was the product of mere
>"consensus," but conspiratorialists couldn’t help noticing that this
>rioting mob had been transported to the site on chartered buses,
>provided with pre-made signs, and received direction from Gotti street
>hoods with walkie talkies and cellular phones.
>
>
>Mob/Red Partnership
>
>The point is that the Mafia is a massive, transcontinental,
>transgenerational, self-perpetuating criminal conspiracy that has
>operated in this country since at least the turn of the century, and
>in Italy and Sicily for perhaps three-quarters of a century before
>that. Yet only recently has law enforcement succeeded in penetrating
>the surface of this dark menace. It is important to note also that
>this criminal conspiracy has long worked in concert with the communist
>conspiracy.
>
>Much of what we know of the Mafia-communist symbiotic relationship has
>come from communist defectors such as Maurice Malkin, a member of the
>Communist Party’s inner circle who had managed the Daily Worker and
>kept the Party membership lists. Malkin, a founding member of the
>Communist Party, USA, revealed details of this connection in his
>powerful autobiography, Return to My Father’s House:
>
>The Communist Party of the United States has had an agreement with the
>Mafia since 1924, with the arrival in the United States of Eneo
>Sormenti, alias Vidali Contreras Victorio.... Upon his arrival he
>reestablished the understanding between the Mafia and the Communists
>that was made in Italy by Bordiga, a leader of the Italian Communist
>Party, and by Ercoli Palmieri Togliatti, alias Ercoli.
>
>The agreement called for the Mafia to do work for the Communist
>International, such as murdering opponents, distributing counterfeit
>currency and dope, stealing government documents such as seals and
>stamps for foreign passports, and other jobs which Communist agents
>could not carry out, but which the Mafia and its connections could.
>
>According to General Major Jan Sejna of Communist Czechoslovakia, one
>of the highest-ranking defectors ever from the Soviet bloc, the
>Kremlin launched a major global effort in the 1950s to more thoroughly
>penetrate organized crime in all countries. As told in Red Cocaine, by
>Dr. Joseph Douglas, General Sejna explained the plan: "The Soviets
>reasoned that if they could successfully infiltrate organized crime,
>they would have unusually good possibilities to control many
>politicians and would have access to the best information on drugs,
>money, weapons, and corruption of many kinds. A secondary reason was
>to use organized crime as a covert mechanism for distributing drugs."
>
>
>"Rescued" by the West
>
>Working hand in hand, these two globe-straddling conspiracies wield
>enormous power. But this convergence of criminal interests and
>cooperation does not alone begin to explain the incredible
>totalitarian communist advances during the decades after World War II.
>The communists were relentlessly carrying out their comprehensive plan
>for global conquest, as detailed in the Programme of the Communist
>International, adopted at its 6th Congress in Moscow, September 1,
>1928. But, incredibly, they were also advancing their diabolical
>design with indispensable help from the capitalist West (see page 39).
>
>More and more Americans began coming to the realization in the 1950s
>that the advances of communism abroad and socialism at home had more
>to do with policies and programs emanating from New York and
>Washington than from Moscow. It was the vast transfusion of Western
>technology and money taken from American taxpayers that time after
>time saved communism from collapse. It was repeated betrayal by
>American diplomats, bureaucrats, and politicians that turned scores of
>nations and hundreds of millions of souls over to brutal tyranny. It
>was American officials who time after time appointed communists and
>communist sympathizers to sensitive government posts and then fought
>their removal when they were discovered. It was many of America’s top
>financiers, bankers, and industrialists who were arranging loans and
>financial aid to the Kremlin.
>
>Informed Americans became alarmed at the key role that several of the
>large tax-exempt foundations - Ford, Rockefeller, and Carnegie,
>particularly -had been playing in providing funds to individuals and
>organizations identified with communism and socialism. Even worse,
>some of the foundations had communists and subversives on their staffs
>and boards of directors (one of the most egregious examples being the
>appointment of notorious Soviet spy Alger Hiss to head the Carnegie
>Endowment).
>
>In 1952, the U.S. House of Representatives established a formal
>committee to investigate the foundations. In 1953, the committee’s top
>researcher, Norman Dodd, visited the New York City headquarters of the
>Ford Foundation at the invitation of Ford President H. Rowan Gaither.
>At that meeting, Dodd later recounted, Gaither brazenly told him that
>he and others who had worked for the State Department and other
>federal agencies had for years "operated under directives issued by
>the White House, the substance of which was to the effect that we
>should make every effort to so alter life in the United States as to
>make possible a comfortable merger with the Soviet Union."
>
>
>The Seat of Power
>
>It was growing obvious to many that that was exactly the course which
>our government was following. Dr. Bella Dodd, a former member of the
>National Committee of the Communist Party, USA, who left the Party and
>became a committed anti-communist, recounted that on occasion top
>orders for the Party came not from Moscow but from any one of three
>designated men at the Waldorf Towers in New York - all of whom were
>extremely wealthy American capitalists. "I think the Communist
>conspiracy is merely a branch of a much bigger conspiracy," said Dr.
>Dodd. "I would certainly like to find out who is really running
>things."
>
>An important clue concerning "who is really running things" was
>revealed in 1966 when Professor Carroll Quigley of Georgetown
>University published his massive history, Tragedy and Hope.  Professor
>Quigley, who had access to the secret records of the international
>network of moneyed power elites who have formed much of our
>governmental policies for decades, averred that "this network, which
>we may identify as the Round Table Groups, has no aversion to
>cooperating with the Communists, or any other groups, and frequently
>does so."
>
>That same year, Robert Welch, founder of the John Birch Society,
>published his important essay entitled The Truth movement is only a
>tool of the total conspiracy," and pointed to the West as the real
>seat of the conspiracy’s power. It is our intention, in the following
>pages, to present the truth about the Conspiracy and the Conspirators,
>and their goals, strategy, and tactics, in the hope that a sufficient
>number of Americans can be awakened and moved to proper action - in
>time.
>
>WILLIAM F. JASPER
>
>
>
>The New American * Sept.16, 1996
>
>THE NEW AMERICAN - Copyright 1996, American Opinion Publishing,
>Incorporated - P.O. Box 8040, Appleton, WI 54913 Homepage:
>http://www.jbs.org/tna Subscriptions: $39.00/year (26 issues)
>-1-800-727-TRUE WRITTEN PERMISSION FOR REPOSTING REQUIRED: Released
>for informational purposes to allow individual file transfer, Usenet,
>and non-commercial mail-list posting only. All other copyright
>privileges reserved. Address reposting requests to tna@jbs.org or the
>above address.
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>Nancy K
>
>-----------
>If men use their liberty in such a way as to surrender their liberty, 
>are they thereafter any the less slaves?  If people by a plebiscite
>elect a man despot over them, do they remain free because the 
>despotism was of their own making?
>                                   - Herbert Spencer
>                                     The New Toryism, 1884
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep  7 10:28:38 PDT 1996
Article: 85789 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!EU.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: FWD: THE DAY BILL CLINTON GETS RE-ELECTED......
Date: 7 Sep 1996 02:31:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Message-ID: <50qmpu$q5m@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:85789 alt.politics.perot:54821 alt.politics.usa.republican:274594 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:371789 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28646

In  endiz@hand.soon writes:

>
>......IS THE DAY AMERICA DRAWS HER FINAL BREATH AS A FREE NATION.

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep  7 18:32:00 PDT 1996
Article: 86013 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.immigration,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.california,alt.politics.california
Subject: $37k for not avail for THIS; but $1M for Spielberg? No problem!
Date: 7 Sep 1996 16:27:58 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <50s7qe$l7a@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50ql14$cpp@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:27:58 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:86013 alt.politics.usa.republican:275239 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:372301 alt.politics.perot:54906 alt.california:27661

>  Just weeks after multimillionaire Hollywood movie director was given
>an oversized check in the amount of $1 million for a pet media project
>by U.S. Senators Arlen Specter and Barbara Boxer, the hard-pressed
U.S.
>Immigration and Naturalization Service refused to shell out $37,000 so
>that the city of Anaheim in Orange County, California could continue a
>wildly-successful test program that posted an immigration agent in its
>jail, which is packed with violent illegal aliens.
>  According to an article in Thursday's (9/5/96) Orange County
Register
>newspaper, 
>
>        "The county's six Republican congressmen joined 
>         Anaheim city officials in protesting the move. 
>         Without agents at the city level, they say, the 
>         criminals will slip through the cracks, never to
>         be seen at the county level."
>
>  The article continues,
>
>        "Unless there's an immigration agent to identify and
>         detain the foreign-born criminals on the spot, Zemel 
>         said, they will escape deportation and roam the county's     

>         streets.
>        "In addition, the city pays close to $1 million a year, 
>         [City Councilman] Zemel said, for public safety personnel,   

>         attorney's time, incarceration and REPEAT PROCESSING linked 
>                                            *****************
>         to foreign-born criminals.
>        "'WE ARREST THEM, THE JUDGE RELEASES THEM, AND THE PERSON
>         *******************************************************
>         NEVER SHOWS UP AGAIN OR SHOWS UP UNDER A DIFFERENT NAME,'
>         *******************************************************
>         Zemel said.                
>        "Meanwhile, we're paying to prepare these case.
>        "The city, he added, is willing to pay $37,000 to hire it's 
>         own immigration agent at the Anaheim jail. But the
immigration
>         service has rejected the proposal . . . "
>         [emphasis added] 
>
>  A related Register article states,
>
>        "In August, agents in the Orange County jail identified 548   

>         foreign-born arrestees and instituted deportation for 103,   

>         records show.
>        "THE QUEST TO PLACE INS AGENTS IN THE JAIL AND COURTROOM BEGAN

>         *************************************************************
>         EARLIER THIS YEAR AFTER AN ANAHEIM POLICE OFFICER WAS SHOT
>         **********************************************************
>         AND KILLED BY A CONVICTED FELON WHO HAD BEEN DEPORTED TWICE."
>         ************************************************************
>         [emphasis added]
> 
>  Isn't it nice to know your Clinton-led government can EASILY find a
>million bucks to give to an incredibly wealthy Hollywood
>director/businessman, but can't even find $37,000 to keep violent
>illegal aliens out of the country? 
>  And won't even cooperate with an American city which offers to put
up
>the negligible amount needed ($37,000) to protect itself which might
>literally prevent another cop or citizen from being victimized?
  Maybe if the City of Anaheim needed $37,000 to commission someone to
do a sequel to the notorious, publically-funded National Endowment for
the Arts' work of "homoeroticism"  "Piss Christ" (in which a crucifix
is submerged in a bucket of urine") the U.S. government could find the
money?

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  8 08:58:05 PDT 1996
Article: 86153 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,soc.conservatism
Subject: FWD: THE DAY CLINTON GETS RE-ELECTED...
Date: 8 Sep 1996 02:00:20 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <50t9bk$f0d@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca19-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07  7:00:20 PM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:86153 alt.politics.perot:54939 alt.politics.usa.republican:275595 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:372602

In  endiz@hand.soon writes:

>
>...IS THE DAY AMERICA DRAWS HER LAST BREATH AS A FREE NATION.

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  8 08:58:07 PDT 1996
Article: 86154 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mem.bellsouth.net!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.politics.org.covert,alt.journalism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.conservatism
Subject: Re: Letter to Janet Reno from Representative Maxine Waters
Date: 8 Sep 1996 01:51:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <50t8rt$io1@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <323165DB.7E8A@worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca19-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07  8:51:57 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:36676 alt.politics.org.cia:12980 alt.politics.org.covert:2856 alt.journalism:53368 alt.conspiracy:86154 alt.politics.usa.republican:275596 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:372603 alt.politics.perot:54940 alt.politics.radical-left:117150

  Although I STRONGLY disagree with the ultra-ultra-ultra-liberal
propagandist Maxine Waters -- who, incredibly dishonestly and
eupimistically, still refers to the L.A. Race Riots of a few years ago
as "the civil disturbances" -- I really have to applaud her letter to
the U.S. Justice Department regarding the shocking news broken recently
in the San Jose Mercury News regarding alleged (pre-NAFTA!) CIA
involvement in international trade . . . DRUG trade, that is.
  However: Where the heck have hypocritical people such as Waters been
while much-demonized (by her supporters in the Liberal Media) "angry
white men" -- such as Terry Reed (author of "COMPROMISED") -- were
exposing the even MORE shocking facts about Bill Clinton's involvement
with the drug-running operation based in Mena, Arkansas when HE was
governor of that state?
  When The SPOTLIGHT breaks the SAME kinds of shocking stories that The
San Jose Mercury recently did, people such as Maxine Waters and her
Establishment Media friends typically dismiss it as merely the
unsubstantiated rantings of "angry white men," "right-wing extremists,"
etc.
  Believe me, a review of all the back issues of The SPOTLIGHT since
its mid-1970s founding would reveal an ENORMOUS quantity of
equally-shocking exposes as the San Jose Mercury so admirably did
recently.

The SPOTLIGHT
Subscription info: (202) 546-5621

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  8 08:58:07 PDT 1996
Article: 86155 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.conspiracy,alt.control,alt.current-events.clinton,alt.dear.whitehouse,alt.goverment.abuse,alt.internet.talk.radio,alt.journalism.criticism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.conservatism
Subject: Fwd: URGENT ALERT: Dr. Nancy Lord Attorney at Law Threatened by Black Robed Criminals
Date: 8 Sep 1996 01:56:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 197
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In <3231a5cd.94216477@news.gte.net> moonbeam@gte.net (Douglas A.
Sarbach) writes: 

>FOR MASS DISTRIBUTION

>A terrible miss-justice has happen in Macon, Ga. today that will shock
>every Red Bloodied American. The Department of Injustice has seen to
>it, that Dr. Nancy Lord, Attorney at law and 1992 Libertarian
>Vice-president candidate, was removed from the Bob Starr Case in
>Federal Court of the middle district of Georgia. Early in the case Dr.
>Lord and the defense went to Jimmie McCranie's house to recover some
>vital evidence pertaining to the case. Now the Judge is claiming that
>there were explosive residue, and she is being threaten by the
>Department of Injustice of being subpoenaed to testify against her own
>client Bob Starr. Dr. Lord has stated that she will reserve her
>attorney client privilege, and her 5th Amendment right. Even risking
>the possibility of going to jail. 
>
>
>Is any American safe from being railroaded into false injustice, and
>used as a political stepping stone to glorify those who would want to
>rule over us and enslave us? How long will you ignore the abuses of an
>totalitarian government when they are imprisoning innocent people?
>Will you wait until they come from you, and will there be any American
>Citizen to defend you? 
>
>Bob Starr, Jimmie McCraine and Troy Spain need your help, or they may
>spend the next twenty to fifty years in prison! They need $20,000
>dollars to continue their defense. No DONATION IS TO SMALL. These men
>are in desperate need of a good Constitutional defense attorney for
>their trial, which starts October 16, 1996.
>
>Please make all check, money orders payable to Robert Starr, and send
>them ASAP to:
>
>Robert Starr Defense Fund
>C/O Don Beauregard
>PO Box 16161
>St. Petersburg, Fl. 33734-16161
>
>For more information about this important case, please read on and/or
>call 813-588-3072.    
>
>Thank you,
>Concerned American citizen of the Robert Starr Defense Fund
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On April 26, 1996, Robert Starr and James McCranie were arrested
>and charged by federal agents with conspiracy and possession of and
>unregistered explosive device (pipe bombs). According to the
>government's own testimony (and the press), the pipe bombs of the
>accused are similar in construction to the one used at the Olympic
>Park in Atlanta on July 27th.
>
>The U.S. government's witness (BATF Agent Steve Gills) also
>testified under oath that Starr had no knowledge of such evidence
>being placed on his property, and that McCranie stated that he
>wanted nothing to do with making pipe bombs. The government has
>also stated in their response to the defense attorney's motions
>that the confidential informants had "participated" in the burying
>of evidence on Starr's property.
>
>We were concerned that the illegal activities of these informants
>were not over.  During the first week after the arrests, we
>provided the FBI, at their request, information about them,
>including photographs.
>
>Starr, McCranie, and now Troy Spain, are now being held without
>bond until their trial which begins on Sep 3.  Against the written
>protests of the defense, Starr and McCranie were relocated to the
>U.S. Penitentiary in Atlanta, GA shortly before the Olympics, at
>the request of the U.S. Marshall Service for "security reasons".
>No further details were given.
>
>Upon learning of the tragedy at the Olympic Park at about 2 a.m.
>July 27th, we immediately began going over evidence from our
>investigation concerning the Robert Starr case.  Based on news
>reports concerning a pipe bomb made of galvanized steel with nails
>attached and a white male with a soft southern accent, we became
>concerned that the tragedy might be linked to individuals who we
>learned of through our investigation on the Macon case who fit this
>profile.
>
>The U.S. District Court gag order issued at 5:00 p.m. on Friday,
>approximately 7 hours before the bombing, prohibits us from
>disclosing more about these suspects.
>
>At about 12:30 p.m. on Saturday, July 27, we telephoned the FBI in
>Atlanta, the Atlanta police, and the federal security agency called
>SOLEC, and told them that we were aware of suspects who know about
>and have made pipe bombs.  We also offered to listen to the 911
>tape and compare it with voice recordings of the individuals, and
>show our pictures of these men to any eyewitnesses.  The FBI
>official told us they were "too busy" to speak with us and would
>not give us any more information.
>
>On Saturday, we began to observe footage of our Bob's arrest, and
>heard that a "militia connection" was suspected.
>
>Robert Starr gave a taped statement from the federal penitentiary.
>Mr. Starr stated that the perpetrators should be hung.  His
>analysis of news clips suggested that the perpetrator had to be
>familiar with security measures, and that it might have been done
>by informants who are known to have instigated illegal activity in
>Georgia in the past.  If he listened to the 911 tape, he might
>recognize the voice, he said, and he offered to assist the
>government in any way possible to find the culprit.
>
>On Sunday morning at 10:00 EST we held a press conference at the
>federal building in Macon, played Mr. Starr's statement for the
>news media, and told them (within the limits of the gag order) of
>our suspicions and that our calls had not been returned.
>
>Several reporters questioned ACOG officials during their 5:00 p.m.
>press conference as to why the lead provided by the Georgia militia
>had not been followed.  They claimed that all leads were being
>investigated, but looked rather uncomfortable throughout the
>conference, which was peppered with questions from reporters
>concerning the Fourth Amendment and constitutional rights.
>
>As of 8:00 a.m. on Monday morning, law enforcement agencies have
>still failed to returned our phone calls.
>
>However, we have spoken with and have given the same information
>to news media from all over the world since 6 p.m. Saturday:
>
>WMAZ, Macon Georgia
>Macon Telegraph
>Associated Press
>Dallas Morning News
>Orlando Sentinel
>Toronto Sun
>Sacramento Bee
>Fox 23 TV, Macon
>CNN, Atlanta
>RTL television, Germany
>Atlanta Journal & Constitution
>KLM television, Germany
>Inside Edition
>The Wall Street Journal
>French television
>Newsday
>Australian TV
>Focus TV
>WABC, AM 770 New York
>WMAZ, AM 940 Macon
>ITN British Television
>CBS News
>
>Several additional radio shows, including KRLD 1080 AM of Dallas,
>are scheduled.
>
>However, the feds are hitting back.  We are told from patriots
>outside of the Macon area that the network feed started hitting
>Bobby and Jimmy hard after 11:00 p.m. Sunday.
>
>If anyone might have been in Centennial Park on Friday night, or
>has any other information that might help in solving this terrible
>crime, please contact us using the informtion below.
>
>
>When conducting and investigation, one usually asks the question,
>"Who benifits ?". The pipe bombming in Atlanta has the potential
>of damaging the Starr McCrannie and Spain defense although they
>have the perfect alibi (held for trial without bond in a U.S.
>Pen.).
>
> Also, the results of the bombing has led to military personell on
>every major street corner of Atlanta while government officials
>call for more money, manpower, international co-operation, and yes,
>authority over our lives. The freedom movement (Militia, Patriots,
>etc.) have spoken out against this policy for years. Nor would any
>Georgia militiaman wish to jepardize the upcoming Macon trial.
>
>We belive that since only one of three manufactured pipe bombs
>exploded, the idiot who committed this crime wanted even more death
>and destruction than what was received. It is for this reason, we
>fear that before the Atlanta Olympics are over, these criminals may
>strike again... somewhere in Georgia.
>
>
>
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  8 08:58:09 PDT 1996
Article: 86157 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism
Subject: Re: ANOTHER CLINTON JOKE
Date: 8 Sep 1996 02:01:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <50t9e7$sqs@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50sonr$t2o@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:86157 alt.politics.usa.republican:275620 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:372622 alt.politics.perot:54946

In <50sonr$t2o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> endosci@aol.com (Endosci) writes:

>
>     The only reason I'm posting this is because I saw that someone
really
>got pissed off by that last one.  So here goes...
>
>     Bill and Hillary Clinton were leaving a campaign event in the
>presidential limousine and when they noticed a drunken homeless man
lying
>in the gutter.
>Hillary, stunned with suprise, turned to her husband and said, : Oh my
>God, Bill, I used to date that man back in high school!! Just think,
If I
>had married him he would be President right now!
> 
>                          Mike

  Love it!
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  8 08:58:09 PDT 1996
Article: 86209 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,soc.conservatism
Subject: Clinton's talk about 'tripping' in his Convention speech
Date: 8 Sep 1996 02:18:09 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <50tad1$bg7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca19-18.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07  9:18:09 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:86209 alt.politics.perot:54968 alt.politics.usa.republican:275708 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:372684

  There is no doubt in my mind that Clinton and his speechwriters were
quite well aware that the President's renomination acceptance speech at
the recent Democrat convention in Chicago contained an "interesting"
segment, only a few lines in length, in which the candidate referred to
the country "taking the greatest trip in history" as it approaches the
millennium, the year 2000.
  My *take* on Clinton's comment is this: if the recent reports of his
cocaine usage while President are basically bs, he was obliqueley
making light of the issue by his "trip" references.
  Alternately, with is poll ratings way up even though it's widely
believed he "inhaled," and did so more than once, while in college, he
was making light of THAT whole issue, i.e. his pre-presidential drug
use.
  In any case, I consider it kind of "ballsy" for him to have even used
the "tripping" terminology he did at all in his convention speech.
Looks like he's more confident of his power than previously, and
willing to kind of flaunt it.
  What will this mean for his critics after he's re-elected in
November?
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Sep  9 08:20:31 PDT 1996
Article: 63740 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: 6 Sep 1996 03:43:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 26
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References: <50ijvj$e13@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <50jscl$f4v@panix2.panix.com> <50l8sc$phe@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <50mdca$sc@panix2.panix.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 10:43:31 PM CDT 1996
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In <50mdca$sc@panix2.panix.com> gcf@panix.com (G*rd*n the Demon Rat)
writes: 
>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles):
>|... 
>|   To paraphrase an old goy saying, "A million here, a million there.
>| Before you know it, you're talking about *real money*!"
>|   Amused? ;-)
>
>Your coyness is funny, but you're not in the Casas class
>yet.  Keep trying.  Incidentally, you got the quotation
>wrong.
>-- 
>   }"{  Gordon Fitch  }"{  gcf@panix.com  }"{

  Could that have been the reason I said "paraphrase"? Hmmmm?
  Dolt! :-0
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 10 07:18:58 PDT 1996
Article: 64033 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk book (Defending Ivan the Terrible) review
Date: 10 Sep 1996 08:18:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 416
Message-ID: <51388n$mdd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <511qa0$jr6@orb.direct.ca>
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 Look, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who the GENUINE evidence points
to as having been an actual perpetrator of war crimes, such as the REAL
"Ivan the Terrible" appears from the testimony to be, SHOULD be brought
to justice.
  However, the show-trial against the ultimately-vindicated U.S.
citizen John Demjanjuk by the justice-loving (not) Israelis themselves
-- itself so reminiscent of the Nazi and Stalinist show trials -- was
an obvious OUTRAGE. 
  Thank God Demjanjuk's Israeli lawyer has exposed this outrage to the
world in his fascinating new book.
  As a civil libertarian, moreover, I have no words to express my
disgust with the truly totalitarian behavior of the US government's
Office of Special Investigations in the horrible persecution of Mr.
Demjanjuk.
  Also outrageous was the fact that those who strove to point this out
at the time it was going on -- the much-demonized Pat Buchanan, for
example -- were smeared in the corporate media as "antisemites!"[tm],
"neo-Nazis," etc. for their defense of an innocent man -- proved
"innocent," incidentally, in an Israeli court of law, to boot.

In <511qa0$jr6@orb.direct.ca> stefanl@direct.ca (stefan lemieszewski)
writes: 
>
>The following book was reviewed  by Katherine Notley in the Executive
>Intelligence Review (August 30, 1996):
>
>======================================================================
=
>Justice served , at last
>
>by Katherine Notley
>______________________________________________________________________
_
>Defending "Ivan the Terrible":  The Conspiracy to Convict John
Demjanjuk
>by Yoram Sheftel
>Regnery Publishing, Washington, D.C. 1996
>445 pages, hardbound, $27.50
>______________________________________________________________________
_
>
>There are two major facets of this book, written by John Demjanjuk's
Israeli
>defense attorney: First, and most prominent in Sheftel's book itself,
is the
>corruption within the Israeli justice system that led it to conduct a
>show-trial with the sole purpose of convicting Demjanjuk as the Nazi
war
>criminal "Ivan the Terrible." Second, but more important, is that the
book
>reveals the depravity deep within the U.S. Justice Department
permanent
>bureaucracy, in which a U.S. citizen, known to be innocent, was
accused of
>being Ivan the Terrible, stripped of his citizenship and extradited to
>Israel to stand trial, on the only charges for which Israel invokes
the
>death penalty: Nazi crimes of genocide.
>
>EIR has consistently exposed this Justice Department permanent
bureaucracy,
>since it was given a sort of formal existence with the creation of the
>"Nazi-hunting" agency, the Office of Special Investigations (OSI),
going
>back to its beginnings in 1978.
[snip]

>The OSI's geopolitical mission
>
>In the case of the OSI, it was established under the patronage of
Henry
>Kissinger in the late 1970's, as part of his geopolitical
"condominium" with
>the Soviet regime. Under the arrangements between the OSI and the
Soviet
>Procurator General's office, evidence targetting U.S. citizens from
eastern
>Europe as Nazi war criminals, could be accepted into U.S. courts,
>undisputed. The brazenness with which the OSI collaborated with the
KGB --
>as in the cases of Tscherim Soobzokov and Karl Linnas  -- were
beginning to
>tarnish its "Nazi-hunting" image: In the former, the OSI shopped out
>KGB-manufactured evidence to the New York Times, which pilloried
Soobzokov,
>who was able to prove his innocence in a suit against the Times.
>Notwithstanding, Soobzokov was subjected to Jewish Defense League
>demonstrations outside his Paterson, New Jersey home, and shortly
thereafter
>was killed when a pipe-bomb exploded on his front porch. Linnas was
accused
>by the Soviets of committing war crimes in his homeland, Estonia.
>Nonetheless, the OSI had him deported to the Soviet Union, in spite of
the
>fact that the United States had never recognized Soviet rule over the
Baltic
>states (a.k.a. "the captive nations"). Linnas, who had consistently
claimed
>his innocence, conveniently died in a Soviet prison, before trial.  
[snip]

>Hence, the OSI turned to Isreal, a U.S. ally, offering it a "really
big
>Nazi" to try, in an effort to bolster the OSI's flagging credibility:
With
>the usual contribution of forged documents from the Soviet KGB, the
OSI
>sought to have retired Cleveland auto worker John Demjanjuk
denaturalized
>and deported to Israel to stand trial as "Ivan the Terrible." This
"Ivan the
>Terrible" was a Ukrainian who relished his job running the diesel
motor that
>pumped gas into the gas chambers at Treblinka, where some 870,000 Jews
died.
>
>Yoram Sheftel's odyssey
>
>This is the terrain onto which Yoram Sheftel, an  Israeli criminal
defense
>attorney, stepped, when he offered to Demjanjuk's American defense
team to
>be his Israeli attorney. He did know at the time, how profoundly the
trial
>of John Demjanjuk for the crimes of "Ivan the Terrible" was, as he
writes in
>the preface to the American edition, "first and foremost, an American
story,
>a story of a travesty of justice on an almost unprecedented scale."
>
>Sheftel became interested in the Demjanjuk case in 1986: From press
reports
>alone, he became convinced that the Israeli court intended to conduct
a
>show-trial (of course, ending in conviction and hanging), of this, the
only
>other Nazi war crimes trial since that of Adolf Eichmann. His
suspicions of
>the evidence against Demjanjuk centered on two features: the photo ID
spread
>in which Treblinka survivor Elihu Rosenberg had identified Demjanjuk
as Ivan
>the Terrible; and the famous "Travniki document," an SS identity card
>bearing the photo and signature of Ivan Demjanjuk, which had been
discovered
>by the Soviets and kept by them, from both the U.S. and Israeli
authorities.
>
>The questionable court evidence aside, Sheftel was convinced that the
>Demjanjuk case would be a show-trial by the fact that the court had
rented a
>theater in which to conduct the trial and that it was televised live.
It
^^
>hardly bespeaks the impartiality of the three-judge panel (there are 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
no jury
^^^^^^^
>trials in Isreal), whose interest would lie in having sent Ivan the 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Terrible
>to a deserving death. Only well into the trial itself, did Sheftel 
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
discover
^^^^^^^^
>that the judges had also retained a news-clipping service, and perused
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
the
^^^
>news coverage in chambers daily -- the U.S. equivalent of having the 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
jury
^^^^
>reach a verdict based on TV news reports.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>But Sheftel's central focus was to discredit the contradictory
testimony
>surrounding the photo spread identification of Demjanjuk as Ivan the
>Terrible, and the Travniki document. It was the two key pieces of
evidence
>that led Sheftel, via Poland and the Soviet Union, back to the
doorstep of
>the Office of Special Investigations. In 1976, the OSI had sent the
photo
>spread of eight men, six poor-quality photos of the same size, and
two, very
>clear and much larger photos of John Demjanjuk and Fyodor Federenko
(the
>latter deported to the Soviet Union and hanged  in 1986), to Israeli
>authorities, with the request that they show the spread to survivors
of the
>Sobibor concentration camp. None of the ten Isreali survivors could
identify
>any of the men. Yet, Treblinka survivor Elihu Rosenberg tentatively
>identified the 1951 photo of Demjanjuk as Ivan theTerrible. In 1981,
at
>Demjanjuk's denaturalization trial in Cleveland, Rosenberg made his
>identification positive. But, in 1978, Rosenberg had failed to
identify any
>of the same photos as Ukrainian guards from Treblinka.
>
>The tale of the so-called Travniki document is even more fascinating.
>Travniki was an SS training camp for Ukrainians, many of whom openly
joined
>the Nazis. Demjanjuk had not been at Travniki: He had been a prisoner
of war
>who was recruited into a Ukrainian division under SS command to fight
the
>Soviets -- the well-known Vlasov's army.
>
>Demjanjuk's photo and signature on the Travniki document were damning
>enough: The problem was, that, at the time that Ivan the Terrible was
at
>Treblinka, the bearer of the Travniki document (presumably Ivan
Demjanjuk)
>was some 60 miles away. Ultimately, as part of his defense, Sheftel
brought
>in expert testimony proving the document to be a KGB forgery, that
>Demjanjuk's signature had been forged, and his photo affixed after the
war.
>
>As expected, Demjanjuk was convicted and sentenced to death in April 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1988.
^^^^^
>
>The Supreme Court appeal
>
>The appelate process in Isreal, in contrast to the United States,
hears the
>facts of the case and can accept new evidence. All things being equal,
>Sheftel would have had to prove no more than that the lower court had
>blatantly ignored all the evidence toward "reasonable doubt," that
John
>Demjanjuk was Ivan the Terrible. Sheftel knew that proving "reasonable
>doubt," would not be enough: He would have to find the real Ivan the
>Terrible. Ultimately he found that the trial led back to the United 
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
States,
^^^^^^^
>where the Office of Special Investigations not only had the proof that
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
one
^^^
>Ivan Marchenko was the sadistic gas chamber diesel motor operator, but
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
that
^^^^
>the OSI, in order to evade detection, had been throwing the 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
incriminating
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>files into a dumpster belonging to a McDonald's restaurant across the 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
street
^^^^^^
>from their offices!
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>In the meantime, the appeal went through a series of lengthy delays,
not the
>least after Sheftel's co-counsel for the appeal, Dov Eitan, committed
             
>suicide, and Sheftel was nearly blinded when an assailant threw acid 
              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
in his        
^^^^^^
>face as he was leaving Eitan's funeral. But as the delays piled up, 
 ^^^^
more and
>more evidence came into the defense's hands, from authorities in
Poland and
>the Soviet Union -- then undergoing the upheavals that ended in the
collapse
>of communism -- proving that Ivan Marchenko was Ivan the Terrible.
Back in
>the United States, Demjanjuk's family, sifting through the files the
OSI had
>thrown into a McDonald's dumpster, found a reference to a telegram
>from  the
>U.S. embassy in Moscow to the State Department, regarding testimony
about
>Fyodor Federenko's activities at Treblinka. When the full cable came 
                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
to
^^
>light as a result of Freedom of Information Action (FOIA) requests by 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Rep.
^^^^
>James Traficant (D-Ohio) to the State Department, it revealed that, in
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>August 1978, the Office of Special Investigations had over 100 pages 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
worth
^^^^^
>of testimony from Treblinka guards identifying Nikolai Shelaiev and 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Ivan
^^^^
>Marchenko as the gas chamber operators.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>One guard, Sergei Vasilienko, had identified "Marchenko Ivan, the
operator
>of the motor of the gas chambers in Treblinka camp. The Jews in the
work
>crews called him Ivan the Terrible. He was noted for his cruelty to
the
>people, during the process of their extermination. He beat them with
obvious
>enjoyment, with whatever came to his hand, however he wanted."
>
>OSI's 'fraud on the court'
>
>This is just a glimpse of the mountain of evidence that Sheftel
presented to
>the Supreme Court, not only that his client was not Ivan the Terrible
and
>that Ivan Marchenko was, but that the U.S. Justice Department had 
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
proof in
^^^^^^^^
>its possession before it had begun denaturalization proceedings 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
against
^^^^^^^
>Demjanjuk, and in full knowledge that should Demjanjuk be extradited 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
to
^^
>Israel to stand trial, that he would receive  the death sentence. The 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
U.S.
>Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, increasingly concerned that it had
upheld
>the extradition and denaturalization of a man whom the prosecution
knew to
>be innocent, appointed a Special Master, Judge Thomas Wiseman, whose
>judgment on June 28, 1993 read: "The statements of former Treblinka
guards
>and laborers recently obtained from the Soviet Union constitute an
>harmonious chorus which inculpate a man named Ivan Marchenko as the
Ivan who
>worked at the gas chambers, and thus exculpate Mr. Demjanjuk from
those
>specific crimes," and that, from 1978 on, the Department of Justice
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>possessed this evidence.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>On July 29, 1993, the Israeli Supreme Court handed down its 400-page
>decision: "We acquit the appellant by reason of doubt of all charges
in the
>charge sheet, which involve his identification and his activity in the
>Treblinka extermination camp, as the man known in the camp as a guard
called
>Ivan the Terrible .... For the reasons set out  in the judgment, we
did not
>find it appropriate to convict the appellant of any other charge at
this
>point in the matter."
>
>Although the court had no other choice but to acquit, it had done so
while
>rubberstamping not only the highly questionable identification
procedures
>carried out in Israel, but also, more importantly, the open collusion
                                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>between the OSI and the Israeli prosecution to knowingly convict and 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
execute
^^^^^^^
>an innocent man. Demjanjuk, who had been in an Israeli prison for 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
seven
>years, continued to sit on death row, while the prosecution fished
>desparately for an excuse to try him as another guard from another
camp,
>bolting through the door left open by the Supreme Court acquittal. The
>impasse was only broken on Aug. 3, 1993, when the Sixth Circuit Court
of
>Appeals in Ohio "decided to allow Demjanjuk to return to the United
States,
>to take part personally in the inquiry into the legality of his
>extradition," wrote Sheftel. Still it was not until Sept. 22, 1993
that
>Demjanjuk would return home.
>
>And despite the fact that the Sixth Circuit's Special Master, Judge
Wiseman,
>had excoriated the OSI for withholding exculpating documents from both
the
>defense and the court itself, saying that "OSI attorneys acted with 
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
reckless
^^^^^^^^
>disregard for the truth," and committed "fraud on the court," the 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
permanent
^^^^^^^^^
>bureaucracy within the U.S. Department of Justice to this day, remains
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
unrepentant, and unpunished.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Not only should the U.S. government bureaucrat lawyers who, with
Israel, ganged up un an innocent American citizen be disbarred but,
IMHO, they ought to go to jail -- just like the person they KNOWINGLY
falsely accused. 
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 10 19:21:42 PDT 1996
Article: 87052 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!noos.hooked.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: POLICE/FBI SET UP:  Re: $5 into $50,000 in 4-5 weeks
Date: 10 Sep 1996 08:30:35 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <5138vb$2eb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <96251.115857MYORK51@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> <323464CF.28A0@hi.com> <5126km$3j2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca13-06.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 10  3:30:35 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:87052 alt.politics.usa.republican:277804 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:374401 alt.politics.radical-left:117796 alt.politics.perot:55250

  Anyone else ever consider the intriguing suggestion that some/many of
the "make money fast!"-type spam msgs that plague us is/are actually
part of a government set-up, the intent being to establish yet another
reason to regulate the Internet to death?

In <5126km$3j2@solaris.cc.vt.edu> x@y.z (x) writes: 

>I ROUTINELY CHECK THE THE SOURCES OF THESE POSTS AND THE EMAIL
>ACCOUNTS AND MAILING ADDRESSES ROUTINELY DISAPPEAR AFTER ENOUGH
>TIME HAS PASSED FOR VICTIMS TO BE PROSECUTED AND THEIR COMPUTERS
>SIEZED FOR FRAUD ON THE INTERNET.
>
>PEOPLE, THE BEST THING TO DO WITH THESE CHAIN LETTERS IS TO
>ANONYMOUSLY MAIL THEM SOMETHING OTHER THAN MONEY.  SOMETHING
>THAT A COP IS LIKELY TO SCREW HIMSELF WITH, LIKE, SAY, SOME "EVIDENCE"

>BOUND TO SEND THE STUPID COP ON A WILD GOOSE CHASE LOOKING FOR
>THE PEOPLE IN THE PICTURE.
>
>ONCE THESE COPS GET ENOUGH TROUBLE FOR SPENDING DEPARTMENTAL
>RESOURCES ON WILD GOOSE CHASES, AND ONCE ENOUGH OF THEM GET
>FIRED FOR DOING IT, THEY'LL STOP.
>
>THE WHOLE PURPOSE IS TO CREATE SUFFICIENT LEGAL EXCUSE TO SHUT
>DOWN THE USENET, HOWEVER, SO DON'T SEND THEM real EVIDENCE OF
>A real CRIME, AND DON'T VIOLATE THE LAW IN THE PROCESS.  JUST
>SEND SOME "EVIDENCE" A COP WILL BELIEVE BUT WHICH NO JUDGE IS
>LIKELY TO BELIEVE FOR LONGER THAN IT TAKES TO RECOMMEND THE
>COP BE TERMINATED FROM EMPLOYMENT.
>
>MOST OF THESE COPS ARE FBI AGENTS, ROOKIES.  GULLIBLE AND
>VULNERABLE TO US SMART INTERNET TYPE GEEKS AND NERDS.
>
> 
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 14 09:12:36 PDT 1996
Article: 88129 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Alta Vista and the Secret Services
Date: 14 Sep 1996 10:46:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <51e2ed$50t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <01bba18c$d54ff0e0$559850c2@bstkm.staffs.ac.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca14-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 14  3:46:37 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:88129 alt.politics.radical-left:118580

In <01bba18c$d54ff0e0$559850c2@bstkm.staffs.ac.uk> "su"
 writes: 
>
>is it possible that the alta vista search engine is a front for CIA
>clandestine surveillance of the internet users?
>
>
>All they need to do is record the subjects people are accessing their
>computer's addresses.
>
  I think it's safe to assume that virtually ALL of the major search
engines may have intelligence-agency sponsors/patrons . . .
representing one nation or other. 
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 18 01:10:14 PDT 1996
Article: 66516 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.culture.ukrainian
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk book (Defending Ivan the Terrible) review
Date: 18 Sep 1996 02:16:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <51nm2o$2jq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <511qa0$jr6@orb.direct.ca> <51388n$mdd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca22-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 17  9:16:56 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:89095 alt.activism:75711 alt.politics.usa.republican:283654 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:379142 alt.revisionism:66516 alt.politics.perot:56014 alt.politics.radical-left:119506 soc.culture.ukrainian:18274

In  dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan
Spiegel) writes: 
>
>In article <51388n$mdd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Charles  wrote:
>> Look, as far as I'm concerned, anyone who the GENUINE evidence
points
>>to as having been an actual perpetrator of war crimes, such as the
REAL
>>"Ivan the Terrible" appears from the testimony to be, SHOULD be
brought
>>to justice.
>>  However, the show-trial against the ultimately-vindicated U.S.
>>citizen John Demjanjuk by the justice-loving (not) Israelis
themselves
>>-- itself so reminiscent of the Nazi and Stalinist show trials -- was
>>an obvious OUTRAGE. 
>>  Thank God Demjanjuk's Israeli lawyer has exposed this outrage to
the
>>world in his fascinating new book.

[Dan Spiegel writes:]
>I read Sheftel's previous book and found it seriously wanting as a
factual
>document and Sheftel seriously wanting as any kind of a dependable
source of
>anything except praise of himself.

[JoeBuck writes:]
>>  As a civil libertarian, moreover, I have no words to express my
>>disgust with the truly totalitarian behavior of the US government's
>>Office of Special Investigations in the horrible persecution of Mr.
>>Demjanjuk.

[Spiegel:]
>I agree with you here that the finding of truth was not the most
important
>thing to the OSI. Their conduct was reprehensible.

[JoeBuck:]
>>  Also outrageous was the fact that those who strove to point this
out
>>at the time it was going on -- the much-demonized Pat Buchanan, for
>>example -- were smeared in the corporate media as "antisemites!"[tm],
>>"neo-Nazis," etc. for their defense of an innocent man -- proved
>>"innocent," incidentally, in an Israeli court of law, to boot.
>
>Sorry, now you've left reality. I've been on a quest to find any
credible
>refutation of the authenticity of the Trawniki card. 

  I find this curious: you rely on your negative evaluation of
Sheftel's previous book -- and your subsequent conclusion that Sheftel
is "seriously wanting as any kind of dependable source" -- as a basis
for your skepticism towards his recent book on the Israeli government's
persecution of US citizen John Demjanjuk.
  Yet, at the same time, you use a document (the Trawniki card) --
itself "discovered" by the Soviets -- as the basis of your contention
that Demjanjuk *may* be guilty of having been a guard at a diferent
concentration camp.
  If there was ever any source I'd consider "seriously wanting as any
kind of dependable source" it'd be the USSR, *NOT* an Israeli defense
attorney who, truly against all odds, successfully got his client
aquitted of war crimes. 

[snip]
>If you know of any evidence that shows the Trawniki card to be
fraudulent,
>I'd like to see it. 

  For starters, look at where it came from (the USSR, home of some of
the finest forgers in the world, all on the KGB's payroll at the time
it was produced).
  If you're going to cast doubt on defense attorney Sheftel's
integrity, then expect people to remind *you* that it was the Soviet
Union which brought the Trawniki ID card to the table.
  As to allegations that Demjanjuk nonetheless "may have been" a guard
at a different camp, well, the fact is, this was NOT what he was on
trial for. He was on trial for allegedly having been the notorious
"Ivan the Terrible" at Sobibor, period.
  How outrageous of the Israeli court to have made such unbecoming, 
vindictive, desperate post-trial allegations.
   

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 18 10:09:31 PDT 1996
Article: 89159 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uuneo.neosoft.com!insync!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: ILLEGALS SUCK MEDI-CAL COFFERS DRY!
Date: 18 Sep 1996 03:30:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 191
Message-ID: <51nqbv$12b@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <323ec968.6709638@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca22-01.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 17 10:30:07 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.california:27838 alt.politics.perot:56053 alt.politics.usa.republican:283847 alt.politics.democrats.d:123873 alt.politics.radical-left:119571 alt.conspiracy:89159

  Boy, the evidence of fraud which 9/15/96 San Diego Union-Tribune
article referred to below describes must bring tears of joy to the eyes
of the super-wealthy Mexican elites who, while they live even BETTER
than their rich gringo counterparts, won't spare a nickel to provide
medical benefits to the youngest of their own nation's children.
  Undoubtedly, they're cheering on the poorest of their countrymen who
are committing rampant fraud against the "dumb gringo" taxpaying
Californians.
  How despicable.
  You'd think that the $50 billion of U.S.-taxpayer-money that both the
American Democrat *AND* GOP leaders (i.e. Clinton *AND* Dole)
probably-illegally shipped to the utterly corrupt, fascist Mexican
government would have been enough to pay for surgically separating a
couple of Mexican conjoined twins, or for treating a 3-year-old Mexican
tot for cancer, or for funding heart surgery for a 2-year-old Mexican
child with Down's Syndrome who needed heart surgery.
  No, it obviously WASN'T enough to pay for such things.
  Anyway, it would've been too much work, anyway, to try and withdraw
the few million dollars or so that was needed to treat these suffering
Mexican kids from the Swiss bank accounts of who-knows-how-many Mexican
government politicians where a good deal of that $50 billion gringo
money is now secreted.

In <323ec968.6709638@nntp.ix.netcom.com> BajaRat@ix.netcom.com
(BajaRat) writes: 
>
>For those of you Californian's who like the idea of an "open border"
>with Mexican, you may wish to consider the rampant fraud that
>currently exists involving Mexican nationals and you tax bucks:
>
>15-Sep-1996 Sunday (San Diego Union-Tribune)
>
>Desperate because their children are facing death, some Mexican
>families are resorting to intricate maneuvers to get costly medical
>care from taxpayer-supported health programs here, according to
>records and interviews. 
>
>The families are seeking Medi-Cal or California Children's Services 
>benefits to pay for care for cancer, heart ailments or unusual
>illnesses. But Medi-Cal and CCS pay only for Californians' care. 
>
>While some government agencies have taken steps to prevent the
>families from getting the health-care coverage, interviews indicate,
>other officials are struggling with how to cope with the complex
>cases. 
>
>The [San Diego] county District Attorney's Office, for instance, has
>balked at prosecuting family members in some recent cases in which
>investigators for the state health department say they have found
>evidence of fraud or perjury on Medi-Cal applications. 
>
>Prosecutors say a new law is needed to ensure criminal charges will 
>withstand challenges. But state health department officials say they
>think current laws are sufficient for prosecution. 
>
>As government agencies wrestle to devise methods to prevent Medi-Cal
>and CCS fraud, hospitals here are getting stuck with huge bills --
>sometimes more than $250,000 for an individual case. 
>
>UCSD Medical Center in Hillcrest has been particularly hard hit by
>these cases, which officials say caused financial losses last year
>equal to the entire institution's deficit of $14 million in the
>1995-96 fiscal year. 
>
>Federal and state law requires hospitals -- such as UCSD -- to treat 
>patients who arrive as emergencies, as many of these cases do. 
>
>The financial impact is so great at UCSD Medical Center -- which is
>seeking a partner to survive -- that hospital financial service
>employees have been accused of pressuring county eligibility workers
>into approving Medi-Cal for suspect cases. 
>
>Managers at the county Department of Social Services, which employs
>the eligibility workers, say they have tried to address these
>allegations, but have found the process perplexing and complicated. 
>
>UCSD officials denied that their employees engaged in any
>inappropriate behavior to secure governmental reimbursement. 
>
>"This is a tragic situation for the families, the children and our 
>health-care system, which ultimately has to bear the brunt of the
>costs," said Dr. Robert K. Ross, the county health department
>director. 
>
>"It is another example of ineffective and incoherent immigration
>policies placing an undue burden on the taxpayers of San Diego
>County." 
>
>Top county officials recently took steps to shore up systems with a
>new beneficiary identification process to prevent Medi-Cal and CCS
>fraud, but a look at some recent cases shows the challenges that
>exist. 
>
>The cases portray the desperation of Mexican families, the methods
>they use to gain access to California's more advanced medical system
>and the difficulty of uncovering fraud. 
>
>Records and interviews indicate: 
>
>  An 8-year-old girl -- who lived in a walled estate in one of
>Tijuana's richest neighborhoods -- was brought by relatives to UCSD
>last year for cancer care, running up a bill in the tens of thousands
>of dollars. 
>
>An aunt, who impersonated the child's deceased mother, is alleged to
>have illegally sought Medi-Cal for the child. The child is a U.S.
>citizen because she was born here. The aunt was arrested in July, but
>was released from jail after prosecutors declined to press charges
>pending further investigation. 
>
>  A Tijuana family repeatedly sought Medi-Cal and CCS for a 3-year-old
>
>child treated for pelvic cancer at UCSD, where an employee is alleged
>to have pressured a county eligibility worker to approve Medi-Cal
>coverage last year. 
>
>The family subsequently was denied both Medi-Cal and CCS. UCSD is
>thought to have been stuck with a substantial bill in the case. 
>
>  A girl born in 1994 in Tijuana with Down syndrome was brought by her
>
>parents to San Diego for surgery to repair a heart defect. The parents
>used their short-term religious visas to enter the country. 
>
>After they were unable to get either Medi-Cal or CCS because the child
>
>wasn't a California resident, the parents went to court and gave 
>guardianship to an aunt, a U.S. citizen who claims to live in San
>Diego. State authorities have questioned the aunt's residency and are
>continuing to investigate. 
>
>A Tijuana man impersonated the father of conjoined twin girls born in 
>January in Mexico to get Medi-Cal coverage for the infants, who 
>subsequently were separated at Children's Hospital in Kearny Mesa. On
>his Medi-Cal application, the man claimed to live in South Bay. 
>
>State health department investigators in April asked the District 
>Attorney's Office to file criminal charges against the man -- a
>neighbor of the twins' parents -- for allegedly committing perjury on
>the Medi-Cal application. Prosecutors haven't filed charges, because
>of questions about such a charge. 
>
>The separation surgery was done as part of a humanitarian effort that
>was heralded worldwide in the media. One twin died, but the other
>survived to return with her parents to a working-class Tijuana
>neighborhood. 
>
>Health safety nets: 
>
>The Medi-Cal and CCS programs are mainstays of health-care support for
>
>California residents who have limited insurance or financial means. 
>
>The combination federal-state Medi-Cal program largely serves the
>poor, although many beneficiaries have jobs. The county has about
>350,000 Medi-Cal beneficiaries, with annual costs of about $600
>million. 
>
>CCS -- funded with about $6 million from the county and state --
>provides special services for children born with medical conditions.
>There are 6,700 CCS cases in the county, including many middle-class
>families who can meet the income guidelines for assistance. 
>
>Last year, state authorities say investigators uncovered cases that
>could have produced about $25 million in Medi-Cal fraud in San Diego
>and Imperial counties. Most of these instances involved nonresidents. 
>
>-end-
>
>Incredible, eh? Are you sure you want to open those borders to this
>horde of parasites who would undobtedly descend on our health care
>system like a swarm of starving locusts?
>
>
>
>-=BajaRat=-
>"It's time for a change.
>Ferreting out, arresting and deporting illegals, for instance."
>http://www.hooked.net/~junior1/no_more/illegals.htm
>ROSS PEROT - 1996 ||| YES ON PROP. 209!
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 21 11:00:21 PDT 1996
Article: 89980 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Hello to the lurking Mel Gibson...
Date: 21 Sep 1996 01:22:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <51vg0n$pt7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <51uq3c$6ao@Venus.mcs.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca28-40.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 20  6:22:31 PM PDT 1996

In <51uq3c$6ao@Venus.mcs.com> jorn@MCS.COM (Jorn Barger) writes: 
>
>
>"Patrick Stewart, best known for steering the Starship Enterprise in
>Star Trek's ``The Next Generation,'' may be taking on Mel Gibson
>soon. He's in talks to play villainous FBI agent in ``The
>Conspiracy.'' Gibson plays a paranoid cab driver who spins his
>conspiracy theories on the Internet and gets a visit from the FBI when
>he hits upon a conspiracy theory that happens to be true."
>
>
>(Brian, have you requested consulting fees?  ;^/

  Mel Gibson, I gather, is both a practicing Catholic and conservative.
  We need more of his kind in Hollywood, methinks.
  BTW, he starred in one of my all-time favorite films, "The Bounty."  
  Indeed, on occasion I've echoed, perhaps not as convincingly as Mr.
Gibson, Fletcher Christian's lament, "I am in hell!," when considering
some of the more sleazy types who gravitate to this newsgroup. ;-)
  
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 21 11:00:22 PDT 1996
Article: 90115 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.disney.criticism,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.activism,alt.politics.perot,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Read about Disney's disturbing JAIL practice yet?
Date: 21 Sep 1996 02:13:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  Checking recent posts in this ng I was surprised to note that (based
on the subject headers) there's been no discussion of the (IMO)
outrageous Disneyland practice of accusing people of shoplifting,
bringing them to the park's jail behind Tomorrowland, and then asking
for $500 "civil damages" on the spot.
  Then, after having paid the requested $500 to Disney, and thinking
the case is "taken care of," the accused are THEN, weeks or months
later, required to pay the municipal court almost $1000.
  See, the Disney security personnel typically ask the accused for the
$500 "civil damages" in the presence of an Anaheim police officer --
though the police have nothing to do with the request.
  Of course, the accused (not surprisingly) therefore thinks the Disney
request for $500 "on the spot" is an "official" request.
  The Orange County Register newspaper ran a really troubling article
on this practice this past week (Sunday?)
  The article described one case in which the mother of two toddlers
was hauled off to the Disneyland jail and asked to pay $500 immediately
to the company.
  Seems her two tots walked out of the Tinker Bell Toy Store behind
her, as she pushed a stroller packed with Disney toys, each holding a
stuffed animal from the store.
  According to the woman, moments later she was accosted by Disney
security and, with a huge amount of humiliation, was brought to the
park's jail, where the $500 request was made.
  The woman, described as a manager at an Orange County investigations
company, was quoted in the article as saying something like, "I could
NEVER do such a thing. I'm not paying because I'm not guilty. No way!"
  In the article park patrons, municipal police and judges commented
negatively on the Disney practice which, IMO, may involve both fraud
(the accused typically believe the $500 they're paying -- asked for in
front of a cop, no less -- "settles" the case) and extortion (people
may think they won't be freed unless they pay $500 in "civil damages.")
  The allegation that Disney is engaging in unethical practices against
families at its California theme park comes just weeks after the
politically-correct company announced it will recognize the homosexual
marriages of its employees when extending health and other benefits.
  [BTW, I've posted msgs about this issue twice already but they appear
not to have actually gone online. Anyone see my two previous posts
already? Please email me if so. Thanks.]
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 21 16:17:52 PDT 1996
Article: 90194 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.activism,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Codex to Snuff-Out Health Supplements World-wide
Date: 21 Sep 1996 15:55:37 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  I'm reminded of the letter written by Col. Fletcher Prouty ("Mr. X"
in Oliver Stone's movie "JFK") to Tom Valentine which was recently
reprinted in The SPOTLIGHT's 8/26/96 Health & Fitness Supplement.
  In the letter Prouty describes how one particular nutritional
supplement, Carotec's CocoQ-10, noticeably helped him recuperate from
his 1990 open heart surgery.

[The SPOTLIGHT: a weekly newspaper loaded with lots of interesting
"supressed information"; subscription info: (202) 546-5621]


In  Lloyd
Miller  writes: 
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 03:38:10 -0400
>From: Ian Goddard 
>To: prj@mail.msen.com
>Subject: NEW CODEX FORM LETTER- PLEASE FAX IN + HELP DISTRIBUTE
>
>If you don't know about CODEX, go to the letter below John's intro,
>which is not explanatory of CODEX. CODEX is, in a nutshell, a true
>globalist NWO attempt to snuff-out a free market in nutritional
>self-supplementation, and turn what will not be banned totally
>over to the super mega-wealthy multinationals.
>
>-------------------------------------
>Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 19:19:20 -0700
>From: jhammell@ix.netcom.com (John Hammell)
>
>The Codex Meeting in Bonn is coming up fast (October 7-11). Please fax
>this in to Moore at FDA, to the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
Also
>to your own Senators and Congressmen. For a list of Congressional
email
>addresses, get a copy of US Congress Handbook or visit their home page
at
>http://www.idsonline.com/business/usch There isn't enough time left
this
>session of Congress to get a hearing, but we need to push for one next
>session and begin now to really push for it.
>
>If you are outside the US, please fax this to our government anyway,
and
>please draft your own form letter for the same purpose and send it to
your
>Codex delegate(s). If you don't know the name of the Codex delegate
for
>your country, please look it up in our web site
>(http://www.lef.org/lef/index.html) Please help distribute this form
>letter to as many people as possible and help educate them as to the
>nature of the problem.
>
>I will be part of the American Codex delegation to the meeting in
Bonn,
>and am getting this letter to all of our delegates, and am also
sending it
>to the Codex Alimentarius Commission in Rome. I am also sending it to
the
>members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I am sending it to
the
>Clinton administration, but am also sending it to other Presidential
>candidates. The goal is to educate as many people as possible who
might be
>able to help somehow. My goal is not to alienate Dr. Moore of the FDA.
I
>am not "going over his head." He is just doing his job, and will be
the
>leader of the delegation I'm on. He should be treated with respect.
>
>                                     Thanking You in Advance,
>                                                John Hammell
>
> CODEX THREAT TO WORLD HEALTH                  9/15/96
>NO TO GERMAN, FRENCH, CANADIAN PROPOSALS
>
>To: Robert J. Moore, Ph.D. Food and Drug Admin.
>Office of Special Nutritionals, HFS-456200
>C. St. S.W., Washington, D.C. 20204 USA
>202-205-5372, FAX 202-205-5295
>
>
>To: Senate Foreign Relations Committee
>Senate Dirkson Office Bldg. Rm. 450
>Washington D.C. 20510 USA
>202-224-4651, FAX 202-224-0836
>
>Dear Dr. Moore:
>
>The German proposal currently before the UN/WHO's Codex
>Alimentarius Commission poses a grave threat to public health all
>over the world. Dr. Matthias Rath, the vitamin C researcher who
>proved the link between ascorbate deficiency and heart disease
>wrote a letter to German Chancellor Kohl urging that the Codex
>meeting (October 7-11, 1996) not be allowed to be held on German
>soil, because if the German proposal to restrict consumer access to
>strictly RDA levels of nutrients were to become the Codex standard,
>it would be tantamount to global genocide.
>
>In his letter to Kohl, Rath discussed the fact that this draconian
>German proposal is being instigated by three manufacturers of heart
>medication who don't want the public to learn of his nutritional
>protocol for preventing and reversing heart disease. Rath discussed
>the fact that Bayer, Hoechst and BASF were formed following the
>breakup of IG Farben, which was disbanded following the Nuremburg
>War Trials for their role in manufacturing the poison gas used in
>the Nazi concentration camps during World War 2.
>
>While we are sending this to you, copies are also being sent to all
>members of the American Codex delegation, and the Senate Foreign
>Relations Committee in hopes that Senate Hearings can be held to
>better understand how we, as Americans, can best defend our health
>freedoms in the face of this international threat to undermine
>them. We urge that the GATT and NAFTA treaties be repealed. The WTO
>and Venzuela have forced the US to either make changes in the Clean
>Air Act so that dirty pollution causing gasoline can be sold in the
>US, or we would face multi million dollar trade sanctions. Will the
>Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act be WTO's next target as the
>multinational pharmaceutical industry seeks control over dietary
>supplements?
>
>We urge the US delegation to totally reject the German, French and
>Canadian positions on how dietary supplements (including herbs)
>would be regulated. We urge that the US delegation reject any
>scheme for establishing maximum potencies for dietary supplements
>tied to RDI's, DRV's or any other contrived reference value which
>we regard to be fraudulent and against the best interest of
>consumers.
>
>We would like the FDA to work with us to create a rational
>framework for international trade in high potency vitamins,
>minerals, amino acids, trace elements, herbs, botanicals and other
>dietary supplements in which these products would be regulated as
>foods not drugs!!!
>
>We thank you for your concern about not only the public health of
>Americans, but also for being leaders in defending consumer access
>to dietary supplements world wide, and we look forward to a
>dialogue with you and with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee
>on this very important international trade issue.
>
>Signed:
>Address:
>City:
>State:                    Zip:
>Date:
>
>cc US Codex Delegation
>The Codex Alimentarius Commission, Rome, Italy
>Concerned Citizens World Wide
>My Senators and Congressman
>Clinton/Dole/Perot/Browne/Collins/Nader
>
>(Information provided by John C. Hammell, legislative advocate,
>Life Extension Foundation Political Office, 2411 Monroe St. #2,
>Hollywood, FL 33020 USA, john@lef.org, 800-222-2553
>954-929-2905, 954-929-0507 FAX, http://www.lef.org/lef/index.html)
>
>(For a one page, typeset copy of this letter, send email or call
>800-333-2553- this letter will be posted in our website soon)
>
>
>
>**********************************************************************
> IAN GODDARD        FREEDOM: to have it, give it.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
> visit Ian Goddard's Universe  ----->   http://www.erols.com/igoddard
>______________________________________________________________________
>
>Forwarded for Comments and Discussion, Not Necessarily Endorsed by:
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>//////////FREE RARE BOOK SEARCH: http://a-albionic.com/search.html
\\\\\\\\\
>Lloyd Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273,
>Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for
the
>entire political-ideological spectrum.  Quarterly journal, book sales,
>rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly
Up-date
>Lists & E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs, &
resources.
>\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\*/////////////////////////////////
/////
>**E-Mail Update/Discussion/Archive**|*******World Wide
Web/Gopher/FTP*******
>  mailto:majordomo@mail.msen.com    |         http://a-albionic.com/
>  message text: info prj            |
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>////  http://msen.com/~lloyd/ //////*\\\\\\
mailto:lloyd@a-albionic.com \\\\
>

-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 22 08:20:27 PDT 1996
Article: 90326 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Israel's leader has 4 SECRET Social Security files in US?
Date: 21 Sep 1996 15:15:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 21 10:15:57 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:90326 alt.politics.usa.republican:286517 alt.politics.perot:56414

  Does Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahoo (Nut-and-yahoo?) have FOUR
*SECRET* files in the American Social Security Administration?
  What, you mean Time, Newsweek, The New York Times etc. HAVEN'T
mentioned this intriguing issue yet? 
  Unbelievable! (not!) 
  Guess they're too busy digging deeply into all the sleaze surrounding
their beloved President Bill "JFK" Clinton! (yeah, right!)
  See what they're talking about in Israel, but what's taboo to even
MENTION in the American media, at the Web site of Eric Lee, a Righteous
Jew and peace-promoting (as opposed to Nut-and-yahoo) Israeli
kibbutznik:

           http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2808/bb080796.html
-- 

 . . . . . . . "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!" . . . . . . . . . . . . .
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $80,000 BMW: THAT'S 
my name!" . . . . . . .  . . . . . ."I'm here from Mitch and Murray." . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . . . ."Has this #@!%$!*&%! EVER been on a sit?" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 
 . . . . . . ."Go to lunch! Will you go to lunch? GO TO LUNCH!" . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    
                                          "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 22 23:29:13 PDT 1996
Article: 90612 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy.jfk,alt.conspiracy
Subject: New Dallas tour: You *are* JFK
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 07:05:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy.jfk:45767 alt.conspiracy:90612

  Believe it or not, an entrepreneur in Dallas restored an old Lincoln
similar to the type JFK was riding in while assassinated and is now
selling tours retracing the motorcade route, complete with the sound
of gunshots as the vehicle passes the TSBD.
  For $25 you can hop in the limo at Love Field and ride right though
Dealey Plaza, where recorded "shots" ring out, and as the
owner/chauffer Paul Crute drives you right up to the doors of Parkland
Hospital, taped sirens blaring. 
  Once at Parkland's emergency entrance, the announcer describes JFK
receiving the last rights.
  Wonder if Mr. Crute parties it up at The Cellar the night/morning
before every scheduled tour? THAT would make it *real* authentic, no?



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 27 20:03:57 PDT 1996
Article: 92830 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.politics.nationalism.black
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton's racist postcards
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 00:32:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <52hs5k$ca6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <51pa83$j32@test-sun.erols.com> <527p94$hi8@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>    
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  What makes me grin is seeing how Jews (such as Mr. Bilk in his
follow-up) so casually dismiss the significance of Clinton having
mailed an anti-Black, racist postcard 30 years ago while, had he sent
an *ANTI-SEMITIC* postcard through the mails, these same people would
be hysterical.
  Indeed, had the young-adult Clinton mailed an openly anti-semitic
postcard years ago the largely Jewish-controlled U.S. media would
undoubtedly make an issue of it . . .  its otherwise obvious and
strong support of Clinton notwithstanding.
  Personally, although I don't at all support Cliinton, I wouldn't
make an issue of his ill-advised action at age 19 in sending an
anti-black postcard to his grandmother, nor would I make a big deal of
it had he sent one which could be considered antisemitic.
  I'm merely trying to illustrate how amusingly hypocritical many --
not all -- liberal Jews can be on occasion. 
  
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 00:07:46 PDT 1996
Article: 69546 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: AIPAC, Israel before the US
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 01:55:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 161
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References: <52a0k3$iur@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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  How tragic that Mr. Netanyahu -- who just weeks ago stubbornly and
repeatedly refused to meet with Mr. Arafat (who's been taking LOTS of
heat from fellow Palestinians for his moderate position) -- is now
desperately seeking a meeting with Arafat, now that his ('yahoo's)
outrageous policies appear to be leading to the collapse of the peace
talks.
  What an affront to the Muslim Palestinians to open that tunnel! 
  Why do such a thing? And at a time when the Israel leader's militant
policies were ALREADY under attack even by his fellow anti-Palestinian
'yahoos.
  Today's newspaper reported 50 dead and many wounded in the latest
Jewish Israeli-Palestinian clashes. 
  What a tragedy -- for Peace.
  May God forgive the Israelis for their unjust, war-mongering, racist
and theiving ways, and may all the innocents killed (on both sides)
rest in God's embrace.
  Frankly, I really see the current events in Israel possibly leading
to WWIII.
      

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>http://www.aipac.org/hot/whyaid.htm

>	It is unfortunate AIPAC is unable to answer the question it poses.  

>                  Why Aid To Israel?

>Small Price for Peace and Security

>Since the end of the Cold war, unrest in many regions of the world has demanded
>U.S. attention.

>The Middle East, however, remains one of the worlds' most volatile areas and
>U.S. interests there are as compelling as ever. With the peace process offering
>great promise, there is real hope that stability may come to one area of this
>troubled region.

>[	However, since we know that Zionist policy is to attempt to get what they
>want by negotiation but if that fails by war, there is really no hope for peace
>unless the Zionists get what they want.  ]

>Aid to Israel is an important tool for promoting U.S. interests in this vital
>but turbulent region. U.S. aid allows Israel to defend itself -- virtually all
>of Israel's aid is security-related -- and it gives Israelis the confidence they
>need to take the risks necessary for peace. U.S. aid also sends a signal to Arab
>countries about the permanence of Israel and its relations with the United
>States.

>[	It is unclear what risks Israel thinks it takes other than excursions into
>other countries.  It is also unclear what those excursions might have to do with
>peace.  As to the signal, it works against US interests.]  

>At a fraction of what the United States spends to defend its interests in
>regions where the threats are not nearly as great, aid to Israel is one of the
>most cost-effective investments in our security. Plus, 85 percent of it is spent
>right here in the U.S. -- creating jobs and boosting the economies of 43 states.


>[	However, it has always been clear to the US that such an investment could
>never be of value and when the Gulf War came along it was clearly of no value.
>That means the entire investment was wasted and continues to be wasted.]  

>A Beacon of Democracy

>We've heard the words "stable, democratic ally" so often to describe Israel, we
>sometimes forget their significance. They are not just niceties, they are
>important cornerstones of U.S. policies.

>Israel's commitment to democratic values contrasts sharply with the lack of
>democracy in Arab countries -- 9 of which are monarchies, 12 of which are
>dictatorships. In fact, recently Saudi King Fahd admitted that "the democratic
>system prevailing in the world does not suite us."

>The fact that these countries are not democracies means more than merely they
>don't share our values. It also means that we cannot depend on having the same
>relationship with these countries tomorrow as we do today since our relationship
>is with the current ruler not with "the nation."

>Because of the depth of the U.S.-Israel relationship, there is no doubt that the
>U.S. can depend on Israel in a crisis. In contrast, our relationship with other
>Middle East Countries is subject to unpredictable changes. One such example
>occurred after the Gulf War when the U.S. and Western allies resumed air strikes
>to force Iraq to comply with the "no-fly" zone. With no direct threat to Arab
>territorial interests, coalition "partners" were unsupportive and in some cases
>critical of the U.S. actions.

>[	And as Israel knows there is no crisis that might face the US that Israel
>can possibly assist in, it is a safe claim to make when they know it will never
>be tested.]  

>A Valuable Friend in the New World Order

>Israel is an important resource for the United States as America addresses the
>dangers of the post-Cold war era: the acquisition of nuclear and sophisticated
>conventional weapons by radical anti-Western regimes like Iraq, Iran, and Libya,
>the spread of Islamic extremism by Iran and other nations, the fomenting of
>terrorism by numerous organizations and states, and political instability
>through out the Middle East.

>[	And in the process of claiming to be an ally, Israel undercuts and makes
>the US look like hypocrits when the US tries for a nuclear free middle east and
>Israel refuses to dismantle it's nuclear weapons.  With help and support like
>this why do we need enemies?  And the author has the balls to mention nuclear
>weapons.]

>Israel, located in this volatile region, operates an extensive
>intelligence-gathering network, understands Islamic cultures and is the only
>stable democracy with a strong defense deterrent in the area. Working together,
>the U.S. and Israel are developing economic programs for the Islamic republics
>of the former Soviet Union in order to counter the influence of Iran on these
>nations.

>[	As it is clear that Israel's military strength is useless to the US and
>that its nuclear weapons are destabilizing to the region, it is not clear what
>this clown is smoking.]

>Strategic and Security Benefits

>U.S.-Israel strategic cooperation is well-entrenched -- joint military exercises
>are frequent, intelligence-sharing is extensive, and Israeli support services of
>our military is substantial. Dozens of American weapons systems, including the
>Patriot missile and the F-15 fighter, have been improved with Israeli
>technological innovations.  

>[	But if the US declines to share intelligence, Israel will buy it by
>subborning espionage against the US.  With such traitors as friends, we have no
>need of enemies.  But Israel is such a loyal ally of the US that they resold was
>Pollard stole to the Soviet Union.  We have no need of enemies.  Israel
>collaborated with our enemy.]  

>This type of sharing will become even more important as the U.S. tries to
>maintain a modern defense while at the same time finding more money to fund
>domestic programs. Israel has renowned capabilities in 13 of the 21 critical
>technological areas that the Pentagon has identified as vital to keeping
>American defenses strong.

>[	Of course they have many other Americans as paid spies on the US that we
>have not uncovered.  And as we uncovered in the Pollard case, Israel will sell
>anything they get to the highest bidder.]

>At Work Across America

>The U.S.-Israel relationship is much more than a strategic alliance -- it
>connects both societies culturally and economically. 

>[	That is very unfortunate.]

>Joint research endowments -- such as the U.S.-Israel Binational Industrial
>Research and Development foundation (BIRD) and the U.S.-Israel Binational
>Agricultural Research and Development fund (BARD) -- have netted almost $2.6
>billion in sales and $130 million in tax revenues while creating more than
>25,000 jobs, all at a cost of $110 million. In many American cities, Israeli
>innovations are being applied to early childhood education, disadvantaged youth
>and senior citizen programs, and other social services.

>[	At the cost of $110,000 there were tax revenues of $130,000.  If you make
>that kind of investment, I have a bridge to sell you.]

[snip]



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 10:07:01 PDT 1996
Article: 93072 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Holding Cell for Law Offenders in DL - Truth or Fiction
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 01:04:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 58
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  The fact of the matter is that, according to The Orange County
Register newspaper -- which has a way-higher circulation in that
county than The L.A. Times' OC edition, btw -- Disney actually has a
*JAIL* behind Tomorrowland.
  Incidentally, you asked if there's a "holding cell" for park-goers
"who have broken the law" at Disneyland.
  Can you say, "Innocent till proven guilty in a court of law"?
  In fact, today's Register carried yet another article concerning the
park's atrocious practice of hauling parents to this jail when, say, a
tot is accused of walking out of a park store with a toy -- and then
requesting $500 on the spot in "civil damages" from the shocked,
accused parents!
  Cecile Menard, an Orange County company manager and the mother of
two toddlers who took stuffed animals out of a DL store, has now
brought a lawsuit against Disney company, according to today's report.
  This is yet another in a series of lawsuits now being brought by
families who visited the theme park against the otherwise very
"politically-correct" entertainment company recently concerning this
issue.
  Disneyland's alleged practice of asking accused park-patrons for
$500 on the spot -- in the presence of uninvolved police officers --
has drawn sharp criticism from county police officers, judges and park
patrons in recent months.
  Even after paying the requested $500 to the park's security, the
accused must -- though they typically didn't realize it at the time
they turned over the money to the Disney company -- pay almost $1000
in court fees when they later stand before a municipal court judge. 
  Recall that the Disney company, whose Hollywood movie companies --
which avoid using the "Disney" name --  produce many films which are
not suitable for family viewing and recently made headlines when it
announced that it would recognize homosexual marriages in the
extension of medical and other employee benefits.
  Thus, based on news reports, it can quite accurately be said that
today's Walt Disney Company accuses -- apparently, quite questionably,
at times -- the parents of small children of being responsible for
shoplifting and then "requests" (extorts?) $500 from these parents on
the spot -- while, at the same time, it goes out of its way to
recognize the legitimacy of homesexual marriages.
  Hooray! Great job, Mr. Eisner!

  In today's issue of the newspaper one mother wh

Webhead  wrote:

>I heard that there is a holding cell at Disneyland for people who have
>broken the law in some way or another.  I guess it is used often for
>minor offenses like use of drugs on the grounds or lewd or disruptive
>behavior.  It supposedly is very much like a jail cell and has very
>trippy graphics of Disney Characters painted on the wall, like Mickey
>looking very sad and in tears, or Donald Duck in various states of
>dismemberment.  This person who told me says he was held in this room
>after he and a friend were caught smoking marijuana in Disneyland. 

>I have also heard this story recounted several times by other people not
>related to this person.  Does this holding cell actually exist or is a
>total fabrication?




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 11:11:45 PDT 1996
Article: 93178 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton's racist postcards
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 15:54:51 GMT
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pciszek@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Paul Ciszek) wrote:

>mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes:

>>The picture postcard, bearing a 4-cent stamp and Washington,
>>D.C. postmark, shows the youth and the watermelon between the
>>words, ``Hope, Arkansas,'' and ``Home of the World's Largest
>>Watermelon.'' 

>It wasn't made clear if the picture was a photograph or drawing,
>but if it is a photo of an acutal record-breaking watermelon, and
>if the kid in the photo was somehow associated with it, then I have
>a hard time seeing the racism.  If the photographer decided to pose
>a random black kid with the watermelon, you might have something.
>Still, Clinton was given these cards by a grandmother who wanted him
>to use them; maybe he sent the most embarassing one to her (she had
>picked it out, after all) and send the others to other people.

  An excellent example of rationalization, with a bit of denial thrown
in for good measure. Congrats, Mr. Ciszek!



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 11:11:46 PDT 1996
Article: 93191 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disneyland.criticism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Recognizing plainclothes security?
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 16:32:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 18
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>Alex Duran (dice@primenet.com) wrote:

>: 	I'm wondering if someone who KNOWS could give pointers as to how to 
>: recognize DL plainclothes security officers.   Thanks!

  Well, based on recent news reports in the Orange County Register
newspaper which describe the peculiar habit of Disneyland security of
questionably accusing the heterosexual parents of little kids of
shoplifting -- and then hauling them off to the park's jail behind
Tomorrowland, where the parents are asked for $500 on-the-spot in
"civil damages" --  I'd suggest that one way to identify the park's
security might be to look for people with walkie-talkies who appear to
be stalking families in the park's stores. ;-)
  However, if/when the politically-correct Disneyland ever holds a
"Gay Families Day" event, I doubt that this suggestion would be
effective, i.e. it may only work when dealing with heterosexual
parents and families.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 16:51:33 PDT 1996
Article: 93198 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 16:22:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  Yes, it's inded true that Mrs. Cecile Menard -- an upstanding
Asian-American Orange County resident and the manager of a California
company -- was hauled off to the Dinseyland jail behind Tomorrowland
when her two very young kids walked a few feet out of a park store
each holding a stuffed animal.
  And YES, it's true that Mrs. Menard, in yesterday's (9/27/96) Orange
County Register newspaper, stated NOT ONLY THAT Michael Eisner's
politically-correct Disney's security wouldn't allow her to change her
two-year-old's diaper while she was (outrageously) detained in the
Disneyland jail but, further, they refused to allow the upstanding
mother of three to collect her other two kids who were wondering the
theme park without supervision.
  It was a real nightmare for the shocked and humiliated mom.
  Truly, what Mr. Eisner's polictially-correct Disney company did to
this mother is outrageous.
  BTW -- not that is makes any difference -- but Mrs. Menard was
apparently not trying to exchange something she'd purchased earlier
when she was accosted by the Dinsey security people.
  Instead, she'd just exited the park's Tinker Bell Toy Store with a
stroller full of Disney toys when, calling for her two youngest
children behind her, she was set upon by Disney security and taken to
the jail behind Tomorrowland -- accused of shoplifting -- because the
tots walked out with toys.
  Ironically, while Michael Eisner's (is Jeffrey Katzenberg still the
#2 man in charge, btw?) Disney company continues to earn millions of
dollars as it's Hollywood subsidiaries grind out non-family-oriented
entertainment -- btw, these subsidiaries cleverly avoid using the
Disney name, of course -- it's been in the news for these two issues
lately: 
1. extending benefits to the homosexual "spouses" of its employees;
and,
2. hauling the heterosexual parents of kids to its theme park's jail,
accusing them -- extremely questionably -- of shoplifting, and then
sking for $500 on-the-spot from the accused, who sometimes pay the
requested amount thinking that "settles" the matter, only to learn
later that they must appear in court and pay about $1000 in court
fees.
  Orange County police and municipal court judges have recently
publically criticized this Disney practice.

az483@lafn.org (Mark Panitz) wrote:

>Recently I heard on my local news
>That this family had bought something and then tried to
>exchange it  (the Mother did have a receipt ) but the
>Kids I think accidently walked out of the Disneyland store
>and they got arrested for shopping-lifting, 
>the Disney Security  staff detained them for  5 hours
>one of the girls (a toddler need to have her diaper change
>Security  didn't let the Mother change  her diaper
>Does anyone else have horror stories like this to report?

>According to the newsreporter this was 5 lawsuit filed against
>DL (Disneyland) this month.

>-- 
>Mark Panitz           
>az483@lafn.org          




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 16:51:34 PDT 1996
Article: 93229 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.society.labor-unions,alt.california,alt.building.jobs,alt.business.career-opportunities.executives,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.business.home,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.media,alt.news-media,alt.internet.media-coverage,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.feminism,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.conspiracy,soc.conservatism,alt.activism,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism
Subject: FWD!: READ AND COPY THE PAULA JONES SEX HARASSMENT COMPLAINT AGAINST CLINTON
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 18:28:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 152
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abigreen@inx.net wrote:

>THESE ARE THE IMPORTANT PARAGRAPHS
>FROM THE COMPLAINT

>From the Sexual Harassment Complaint by Paula
>Corbin Jones against William Jefferson Clinton,
>as filed in Federal Court----

>Let's "pick-up" with paragraph 7----

>   7. On May 8, 1991, the AIDC sponsored the
>Third Annual Governor's Quality Management
>Conference (hereafter "Conference"), which
>was held at the Excelsior Hotel in Little
>Rock, Arkansas. Clinton, then Governor of
>Arkansas, delivered a speech at the
>Conference on that day.
> 
>   8. Also on that day, Jones worked at the
>registration desk at the Conference along
>with Pamela Blackard (hereafter "Blackard")
>another AIDC employee.
> 
>   9. A man approached the registration desk
>and informed Jones and Blackard that he was
>Trooper Danny Ferguson, Bill Clinton's
>bodyguard. Defendant Ferguson was at that
>time a law enforcement officer within the
>ranks of the Arkansas State Police and
>assigned to the Governor's Security Detail.
>He was in street clothes and displayed a
>firearm on his person. He made small talk
>with Jones and Blackard and then left.
> 
>   10. At approximately 2:30 p.m. on that
>day, Ferguson reappeared at the registration
>desk, delivered a piece of paper to Jones
>with a four digit number written on it and
>said: "The Governor would like to meet with
>you" in this suite number. Plaintiff had
>never met Defendant Clinton and saw him in
>person for the first time at the Conference.
> 
>   11. A three-way conversation followed
>between Ferguson, Blackard and Jones about
>what the Governor could want. Jones, who was
>then a rank-and-file Arkansas state employee
>being paid approximately $ 6.35 an hour,
>thought it was an honor to be asked to meet
>the Governor. Ferguson stated during the
>conversation: "It's okay, we do this all the
>time for the Governor."
> 
>   12. Jones agreed to meet with the Governor
>because she thought it might lead to an
>enhanced employment opportunity with the
>State. Blackard told Jones that she would
>assume Plaintiff's duties at the registration
>desk.

>   13. Trooper Ferguson then escorted Jones
>to the floor of the hotel suite whose number
>had been written on the slip of paper Trooper
>Ferguson had given to Jones. The door was
>slightly ajar when she arrived at the suite.
> 
>   14. Jones knocked on the door frame and
>Clinton answered. Plaintiff entered. Ferguson
>remained outside.
> 
>   15. The room was furnished as a business
>suite, not for an overnight hotel guest. It
>contained a couch and chairs, but no bed.
> 
>   16. Clinton shook Jones' hand, invited her
>in, and closed the door.
> 
>   17. A few minutes of small talk ensued,
>which included asking Jones about her job.
>Clinton told Jones that Dave Harrington is
>"my good friend." On May 8, 1991, David
>Harrington was Director of the AIDC, having
>been appointed to that post by Governor
>Clinton. Harrington was Jones' ultimate
>superior within the AIDC.
> 
>   18. Clinton then took Jones' hand and
>pulled her toward him, so that their bodies
>were in close proximity.
> 
>   19. Jones removed her hand from his and
>retreated several feet.
> 
>   20. However, Clinton approached Jones
>again. He said: "I love the way your hair
>flows down your back" and "I love your
>curves." While saying these things, Clinton
>put his hand on Plaintiff's leg and started
>sliding it toward the hem of Plaintiff's
>culottes. Clinton also bent down to attempt
>to kiss Jones on the neck.
>..
>   21. Jones exclaimed, "What are you doing?"
>and escaped from Clinton's physical proximity
>by walking away from him. Jones tried to
>distract Clinton by chatting with him about
>his wife. Jones later took a seat at the end
>of the sofa nearest the door. Clinton asked
>Jones: "Are you married?" She responded that
>she had a regular boyfriend. Clinton then
>approached the sofa and as he sat down he
>lowered his trousers and underwear exposing
>his erect penis and asked Jones to "kiss it."
>..
>   24. Clinton, while fondling his penis
>said: "Well, I don't want to make you do
>anything you don't want to do." Clinton then
>stood up and pulled up his pants and said:
>"If you get in trouble for leaving work, have
>Dave call me immediately and I'll take care
>of it." As Jones left the room Clinton looked
>sternly at Jones and said: "You are smart.
>Let's keep this between ourselves."
>..
>   30. When Ballentine met Plaintiff at the
>reception area, she immediately asked Jones
>what was wrong because Jones was visibly
>upset and nervous. Plaintiff wanted to talk
>about something that just happened and wanted
>to discuss it someplace privately. Ballentine
>and Jones went to a private area in the
>office, and later outside. Jones then told
>Ballentine what had happened with Clinton in
>the hotel suite. According to Ballentine,
>Jones told her that Clinton said as she left
>the room, "I know you're a smart girl and I'm
>sure you'll keep this to yourself."
>..
>   35. Plaintiff continued to work at AIDC.
>One of her duties was to deliver documents to
>and from the Office of the Governor, as well
>as other offices within the Arkansas State
>Capitol complex. In or about June, 1991,
>while Jones was performing this duty,
>Ferguson saw her at the Governor's office and
>said: "Bill wants your phone number.
>Hillary's out of town often and Bill would
>like to see you." Plaintiff refused to
>provide her telephone number.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 16:51:35 PDT 1996
Article: 93269 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.disney.the-evil-empire,alt.disney.criticism,alt.feminism,alt.disney,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,soc.conservatism,alt.politics.radical-left,soc.libertarianism,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.activism
Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:23:53 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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davechri@nando.net (davechri) wrote:

[snip]

>Maybe she should have been watching her children a little more carefully
>(after all, she's still got two kids lost in the park somewhere)

  The *reason* she had "two kids lost in the park somewhere" is that
Disneyland'$ security wouldn't let her collect them.
  DUH! ;-)
  Personally, I hope her attorney adds a charge of false imprisonment
to the lawsuit the woman filed against the company the past week.
  
>Dave Christian

  Just what is it with folks named "Christian"? 
  Fletcher Christian, "Dave Christian" -- they can't ALL be shmucks,
can they? :-)
 [Fletcher Christian, it will be recalled, was the notorious, spoiled
elitist brat who led, then cowardly abandoned, a tragic rebellion
against Captain Bligh of the ship The Bounty. The talented actor Mel
Gibson, a practicing Roman Catholic and political conservative, did a
wonderful job portraying the pansy Fletcher Christian in the film "The
Bounty," which co-starred Sir Anthony Hopkins.] 





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 16:51:36 PDT 1996
Article: 93272 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Former resident of Israel speaks out [was: Re: The USS Liberty attack, no accident]
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 20:24:12 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Beth (Dailey@Gramercy.ios.com) wrote:

>: There no question the Israelis re back stabbers and bigots. That's one
>:so called friend America can do with out. I spent almost 6 years living
>:there with my exhusband and can say the Israelis are the worlds number
>:one Nazis. America should end the 17 1/2 million dollars a day aid they
>:get.

[snip]
  
  Indeed, I wish someone could post the name of the noted Israeli
writer who plainly wrote not long ago that, "The WWII German Nazis
have been reincarnated as modern-day Israelis."
  Of course, only a Jewish Israeli himself/herself could get away with
making such an obvious -- though, ironically, simultaneously "taboo"
-- statement. 
  Any non-Jews who made such a statement would undoubtedly immediately
be slandered as an "antisemite" merely for stating what even Israeli
Jews admit in their own nation's media.
  I'm reminded of the article, titled "In Our Time," which former
National Review columnist Joe Sobran wrote which quoted another
Israeli's boastful printed words to the effect that, "Now that, in our
time, we essentially control the U.S. media and government when it
comes to issues concerning us . . . "
  This Sobran column has been reposted on numerous occasions on the
Internet. Perhaps it's time for another appearance? 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 28 16:51:37 PDT 1996
Article: 93298 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.activism
Subject: FWD: ISRAEL
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 18:15:36 GMT
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"Richard M. Ruiz"  wrote:




>                      TO THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD


>The time has come to recognize Israel for what it is: a little belligerent
>country seeking peace with the right hand and war with the left. What
>they have done is a vicious murderous act that should not go without 
>the full condemnation of the entire world.

>America! You have created a monster with your blind support of Israel.

>WHAT ARE GOING TO DO NOW?





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 09:40:52 PDT 1996
Article: 93409 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: NO PARDONS, MR. PRESIDENT!
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:20:18 GMT
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  Unfortunately, even the mainstream Establishment media are reporting
-- without the slightest bit of outrage, moreover -- that President
Clinton WILL likely pardon Susan MacDougal, early in his and Hillary's
second term, as a reward for her keeping her mouth shut about his
illegal actions.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 09:40:53 PDT 1996
Article: 93438 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 04:12:23 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Michael and Delinda Roberts  wrote:

>The lady should be shot for letting her kids run around Disneyland
>unsupervised....

  The *reason* the poor woman's kids were left running around
unsupervised in Disneyland -- quite clearly -- is that the park's
security wouldn't let her collect them to bring them back with her to
the park's jail -- where she had been hauled after her 2-year-old
momentarily walked out of the park's Tinker Bell Toy Store with a
stuffed toy.
  Really, from what I've been reading of some of the follow-ups to the
original post about Disneyland's controversial practice of speciously
accusing parents of shoplifting, I get the impression that more than a
few of you Disney freaks actually live in the theme park's kind of
make-believe world every day.
  Rather sad, really.
  One wonders, too, if some of you don't take the time to read the
Disney newsgroups -- and defend the company's questionable practices
-- because you own stock in the company. 
  Do any of you, in fact, own Disney stock? 
  That might explain a lot.
  I'd hate to think most Disney fans are as violently anti-family and
mean-spirited as the two Roberts dumbo's ;-) quoted above are, IMO.
  Some might think (without stating my personal view on the matter)
that people such as the Roberts  -- NOT the mother who was brought to
the Disney jail after her 2-year-old walked out of a park store with a
stuffed animal -- should be shot.
 




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 09:40:54 PDT 1996
Article: 93453 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: *I BELIEVE PAULA* [ was: Re: FWD!: READ PAULA JONES' SEX HARASSMENT COMPLAINT AGAINST CLINTON]
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 05:18:51 GMT
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heeley@idirect.com (Wilson) wrote:

[snip]
>Like the man says, pick up the deposition and read it. There is a lot of 
>coroboration there. Her sister's story ironically provides legal coroboration, 
>because Paula told her at the time it happened, along with many more who did.

  Yup, she sure did -- fortunately.
  This is one "bimbo eruption" -- recall, that's the White House's own
characterization of women who, for example, accuse Clinton of things
such as dropping his pants in front of them and requesting sexual
favors, then threatening them to remain quiet about the incident --
that's likely to be proven in a court of law after the President
leaves office in the next millenium. 

>The White House is not dismissing it quite as easily as you are and the efforts 
>they are making to avoid having to answer the charge says it all.

>If Clinton were innocent, he would have made political hay out of disproving 
>the story.

>I never met Paula Jones - W. J. Clinton

>(Later)  I was never in a hotel room alone with her - W. J. Clinton

>Which do you believe?

>WNO 

  Some time ago I read in a tiny article -- in the LA Times, I believe
-- that Clinton's attorney, in an effort to have Ms. Jones drop her
sexual harrassment suit against Mr. Clinton, admitted that the
President (while Governor of Ark.) *may* have met Ms Jones at the
hotel after all.
  This was significant because Clinton had, heretofore, strenuously
denied ever even meeting her. 
  Really, Ms. Jones is very believable to those who -- unlike some
union members whose dues are being used to support the Clinton
campaign -- are after the truth in the matter.
  Undoubtedly, there are many union members who are appalled at the
demonization the VICTIM in this matter -- Ms. Jones -- has received by
the White House and the media. It's similar to what defense lawyers do
in court to women who are raped: cynically make the victim look like a
"bad person," even when all the evidence points to her actually being
the victim of a crime.
  I BELIEVE PAULA.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 09:40:55 PDT 1996
Article: 93467 of alt.conspiracy
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Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.activism
Subject: Re: FWD: ISRAEL
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gary.nt@netcom.com (ZB) wrote:

>>"Richard M. Ruiz"  wrote:

>>>                      TO THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD
>>
>>
>>>The time has come to recognize Israel for what it is: a little belligerent
>>>country seeking peace with the right hand and war with the left. What
>>>they have done is a vicious murderous act that should not go without 
>>>the full condemnation of the entire world.
>>
>>>America! You have created a monster with your blind support of Israel.
>>
>>>WHAT ARE GOING TO DO NOW?
>>
>>
>>
>Keep burning our precious middle eastern oil.
 
  I have no idea if "gary.nt@netcom.com (ZB)" is yet another
ex-1960s-antiwar-activist-turned-middle-aged-hippie-warmonger or not,
but it wouldn't surprise me if he was.
  It's funny: during the 1960s many of the leftist anti-Vietnam-War
protestors vocally pointed out their belief that one of the main
reasons the US was in that country militarily was oil.
  Back then they used this charge as ammo to CRITICIZE the US's
involvement in Vietnam. 
  (I myself, essentially on the right politically, also think the US
involvement in Vietnam was wrong, btw.]
  Now, years later, when so many 1960s liberals and leftists are
middle-aged, many of these very same people point to the US's need for
oil as *justification* for its military involvement in the Middle East
(ignoring the fact, of course, that the US's often ill-advised support
of the Israel actually THREATENS its oil supply.)
  How times change, huh?
  How convenient for such 1960s doves/1990s hawks -- Bill Clinton is a
prime example -- to become gung-ho overseas interventionists, citing
*oil* as a JUSTIFICATION, moreover, now that they're well-past any age
at which they could be exected to be drafted in case of war.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 09:40:56 PDT 1996
Article: 93469 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: FWD: NY Post: Clinton, His Medical Records, and Mystery Injections
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 03:25:11 GMT
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Randolph Langley  wrote:


>From the September 23rd, 1996, New York Post.


>Doc: I Was Fired After Requesting Prez's File

>By ANDREA PEYSER 

>Days before Bill Clinton became president, world-renowned physician
>Dr. Burton Lee, who was overseeing the transition of the White House
>medical unit, was abruptly ordered to pack up and leave.

>His crime? 

>Lee maintains he was shown the door after a series of events sparked
>by his refusal to inject a poorly marked serum into the president, a
>charge the White House denies.

>But more than three years later, the president's refusal to divulge
>his medical history to the American people is an issue of national
>concern.  Lee believes his own shoddy treatment seems related to
>official skittishness over the president's records.

>"I don't think anyone has ever reported this story accurately," Lee
>told me.

>In several conversations last week, Lee, 66, discussed in vivid detail
>his final days in Washington: Lee said his refusal to inject the
>mystery serum -- which he was told was for allergies -- did not lead
>directly to his firing. Rather, Lee believes, he was bounced because
>he demanded access to his patient's medical history before agreeing to
>treat him.

>The ouster came "not because necessarily I wouldn't give him the shot,
>but because I was asking for his medical records," Lee said.  Within
>an hour after the matter was referred to the First Lady, Lee was told
>to clear out of the White House within two hours.

>"There isn't any question in my mind that the person who fired me was
>Hillary," Lee said.

>The White House, meanwhile, maintains it's withholding Clinton's
>records in the interest of privacy, not secrecy. And while Clinton has
>refused to make his records public for more than three years, a
>spokesman told me the decision was made according to the wishes of a
>doctor who's been in charge of the president's care only since 1994.

>Clinton "has released a huge amount of information, but in terms of
>actual lab reports and such, we're basically following what his doctor
>thinks is important," White House spokesman Barry Toiv told me Friday.

>Mariano, he said, "is not a believer in putting out her direct
>records."

>Toiv maintained that Lee was fired solely because "the president
>wanted to chose his own physician."

>What is Clinton hiding? The silence has led to a swirl of rumors from
>here to Washington.

>And the controversy has prompted Lee to speak out, as a doctor, about
>the leader of the free world.

>"Looking back at the way they've behaved these last few years, you
>have to wonder if there isn't something there," he said.

>Lee, a specialist in lymphoma, spent 30 years on staff at Memorial
>Sloan-Kettering Hospital in New York.

>George Bush appointed him to President Reagan's AIDS commission, and
>later named Lee his personal physician, as well as director of the
>White House medical unit. The unit cares for the president and vice
>president, their families and some White House personnel.

>After Bush's defeat, Clinton's transition team asked Lee to stay on a
>few weeks after the 1993 inauguration, and Lee agreed.

>That plan hit a snag on Friday, Jan. 22, the week Clinton was sworn
>in.

>Lee was summoned to the office of Nancy Hernreich, then deputy
>assistant to the president for appointments and scheduling. Hernreich
>told Lee he was to inject the contents of a vial -- "allergy
>medication" -- into the president.

>"I told Miss Hernreich I could not give President Clinton the shot
>because, first of all, without seeing him and talking to him and
>establishing what was going on, for several reasons:

>"No. 1, we had no medical records on the president. Clearly, there's a
>lot of danger to this, and your dosage has to be exactly correct and
>in the exact concentrations.

>"No. 2, the material that came through, said to be his allergy
>medicine, had come through in the ordinary mail. We didn't know what
>it was.  Khadafy could have sent it in."

>The following Monday, Jan. 25, Lee asked Dr. Susan Santa Cruz,
>Clinton's internist in Little Rock, for her patient's medical records.

>"She said there were several specialists involved, and she'd have to
>get them all together," Lee said.

>"Then she said she'd have to ask the permission of Mrs. Clinton before
>sending them."

>One hour later, Lee was told he had two hours to clear out of the
>White House. Stunned, Lee remembers telling an Army doctor who was to
>relieve him:

>"You be very careful what you do from a medical point of view. Your
>first duty is to do your medical duties correctly, not to buckle under
>political pressure."

>Santa Cruz didn't not return several phone calls. 

>At the time of Lee's firing, a Little Rock allergist, Dr. Kelsy
>Caplinger, said he'd prepared the allergy medication for Clinton. He
>agreed, however, that Lee's caution was appropriate, because improper
>medicine can be dangerous, if not fatal.

>But Lee, who most recently served as chairman of a biotech company, is
>not convinced.

>"I've never had anything like this happen in my whole career," he
>said.  "At first, I gave them the benefit of the doubt -- they're
>busy.

>"But now, I've got to ask: What's the story here?" 


>Copyright 1996, N.Y.P. Holdings Inc.





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 09:40:57 PDT 1996
Article: 93528 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton
Subject: Re: NY Post: Clinton, His Medical Records, and Mystery Injections
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 03:32:46 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Randolph Langley  wrote:


>Followup question:

>   What other twentieth century leader received mystery injections of 
>   a clear fluid?

>rdl
  
  Well, it's widely-known nowadays (the knowing liberal media hushed
it up but good 30 years ago, of course) that JFK had his very own "Dr.
Feel Good" who injected him with possible narcotics. 
  I salute Dr. Lee -- a real professional who takes his Hipocratic
Oath seriously -- for refusing to inject the President of the United
States with some "mystery fluid" that literally came through the US
Mail to the White House.
  The Doctor's firm belief, based on the circumstances, that Hillary
Clinton was the person who ordered his firing is not surprising.
  Too bad Dr. Lee couldn't have warned the non-partisan,
non-Clinton-cousin White House Travel Office Director Billy Dale what
to expect before he packed up in the two hours Hillary gave him to
clean out his desk and get out.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 09:40:58 PDT 1996
Article: 93529 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.disney.disneyland,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,soc.conservatism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Holding Cell for Law Offenders in DL - Truth or Fiction
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  Euphemisms, euphemisms . . . 

rwesttpa@server.snni.com (Rick_West) wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>:   The fact of the matter is that, according to The Orange County
>: Register newspaper -- which has a way-higher circulation in that
>: county than The L.A. Times' OC edition, btw -- Disney actually has a
>: *JAIL* behind Tomorrowland.

>	Uhm, the fact of the matter is that there is NO jail at 
>Disneyland; nor is there anything that resembles a jail cel at Disneyland 
>(except in Pirates and Toontown).  There is a holding room - and it's in 
>the Security Communications Center, which is located behind 
>Tomorrowland.  
[snip]

>          Richard West
>          Editor-in-Chief/Publisher
>          Theme Park Adventure

>     Taking You On A Ride Through The Past, Present And The Future...

  Look, frankly, methinks it's *you,* if anyone, whose credibility
oughta be questioned in this matter.
  You're the admitted Editor/Publisher of an industry publication,
right  . . . could it be, *possibly*, that you fear losing your
sources, access, etc. if you stopped using that silly euphemism
"holding room" for what even the Orange County Register newspaper
regularly refers to as "the Disney jail behind Tomorrowland"?
  I dunno, but it's food for thought . . . 




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 10:19:36 PDT 1996
Article: 471737 of talk.politics.misc
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: MLMs preying on the conservative
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 03:47:57 GMT
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jhavok@lava.net (James R. Olson, jr.) wrote:

[snip]
>This kind of stuff seems top be a trend.  I've gotten sevaral pieces
>email spam that start with a rant about how the government is out of
>control, welfare is driving us all broke, the usual rightwing spew,
>culminating in a "fantastic investment opportunity."

>I wonder why I've never seen or received one of these things with a
>liberal slant?  John Stuart Mills said, 
[snip]

  Oh, John Stuart *MILL,* okay, gotcha . . . DUH! ;-) 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 10:25:10 PDT 1996
Article: 320232 of talk.politics.guns
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: MLMs preying on the conservative
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jhavok@lava.net (James R. Olson, jr.) wrote:

[snip]
>This kind of stuff seems top be a trend.  I've gotten sevaral pieces
>email spam that start with a rant about how the government is out of
>control, welfare is driving us all broke, the usual rightwing spew,
>culminating in a "fantastic investment opportunity."

>I wonder why I've never seen or received one of these things with a
>liberal slant?  John Stuart Mills said, 
[snip]

  Oh, John Stuart *MILL,* okay, gotcha . . . DUH! ;-) 



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 12:08:35 PDT 1996
Article: 93638 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
Newsgroups: alt.urban.legends,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarianism,soc.libertarianism,soc.conservatism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.president.clinton
Subject: New anti-CIA urban legend gains speed
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 17:13:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  How unfortunate that a recent series in The San Jose Mercury News
newspaper is now cynically being used as ammunition by some who
apparently don't adequately value the national security of the U.S.
  As quick as they are to believe every questionable claim made
against the entire American Central Intelligence Agency, such
indivduals are quite opportunistically using the possibility that some
people who the Agency had contact with in the past *may* have been
involved in drug trafficking.
  Obviously, the charge has NOT proven anywhere -- but that doesn't
make a bit of difference to those who are jumping on the allegations
to further their own political agendas.
  Indeed, just yesterday there was a heavily-attended gathering in a
South-Central [i.e. the politically-correct euphemism for
"mostly-Black"] Los Angeles park, where a couple of thousand folks
desperate to project their own inadequacies on "the evil CIA!"
listened to demogogues making political hay of the issue.
  How unfortunate.
  Look, the Central Intelligence Agency -- as ALL intelligence
agencies must -- at times deals with less-than-savory characters. If
some of these characters sought to make a quick buck while obtaining
funding for an anti-communist movement in Latin America, then that
certainly is, of course, intolerable and those involved should be
brought to justice for their actions.
  Equally unacceptable, IMO, is the mindset of those who now so
opportunistically seek to paint the ENTIRE Agency as culpable in the
matter.
  Just about EVERY large organization in history, no matter how noble
its goals, has suffered a few embarrassments, experienced a few
scandals.
  Let's hope that more level-headed, rational and pro-American minds
will not be intimidated into silence when demogogic speakers in the
next few weeks and months start railing on and on about "the evil CIA
which brough drugs into our neighborhoods."
  The fact of the matter is that if, during the then-still-raging Cold
War of the 1980s, the Agency -- at the time engaged in an
international struggle with the KGB and the antagonistic intelligence
agencies of other totalitarian regimes all over the globe -- was not
as circumspect as it should have been in some areas, and had a FEW
contract agents who *may* have dealt drugs on occasion, then that's
very unfortunate.
  Rather than demonize the ENTIRE agency because of the possible
indiscretions of a few, let us investigate what actually happened --
after all, a few articles in a local newspaper are hardly the last
word in the matter -- and then use the knowledge gained to avoid
similar situations in the future.
  As far as I know, the very same opportunistic demogogues who railed
against the CIA for allegedly trafficking in drugs have, up till now,
been notably quiet the past few years when it came to discussing the
MUCH STRONGER evidence of, and documentation for, then-Arkansas
Governor Bill Clinton's direct knoweldge -- indeed, PARTICIPATION IN
-- the Mena airport cocaine importation situation.
  Well, one suspects these hypocritical demogogues haven't made an
issue of Mena -- a case far better-documented than the San Jose
Mercury News charges -- because doing so might irritate "Massa
Clinton," leading, perhaps, to a reduction in all those wonderful
benefits living on the Federal Plantation brings.
  Moreover, and something that those who are now so opportunistically
smearing the ENTIRE Agency seem oblivious to, is the fact that *their
own* ill-advised political positions on drugs are partly responsible
for the fact that "renegade CIA drug trafficking" could even succeed.
  While enlightened observers such as columnist William F. Buckley Jr.
and aothers have repeatedly suggested that drug legalization would
help solve many of society's biggest drug-related problems, the very
people who now demonize the CIA based on unproven charges are,
largely, steadfastly opposed to such legalization.
  If drugs were legal in the first place there would have been no
opportunity for unprincipled Agency contacts to make themillionsthey
allegedly did by bringing drugs into the US.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 29 15:18:05 PDT 1996
Article: 93702 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: New anti-CIA urban legend gains speed
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glass@barepower.net (Jim Glass) wrote:

>In article <52mb74$okv@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com says...
>>
>>  How unfortunate that a recent series in The San Jose Mercury News
>>newspaper is now cynically being used as ammunition by some who
>>apparently don't adequately value the national security of the U.S.
>>  As quick as they are to believe every questionable claim made
>>against the entire American Central Intelligence Agency, such
>>indivduals are quite opportunistically using the possibility that some
>>people who the Agency had contact with in the past *may* have been
>>involved in drug trafficking.
>>  Obviously, the charge has NOT proven anywhere -- but that doesn't
>>make a bit of difference to those who are jumping on the allegations
>>to further their own political agendas.
>>  Indeed, just yesterday there was a heavily-attended gathering in a
>>South-Central [i.e. the politically-correct euphemism for
>>"mostly-Black"] Los Angeles park, where a couple of thousand folks
>>desperate to project their own inadequacies on "the evil CIA!"
>>listened to demogogues making political hay of the issue.
>>  How unfortunate.

>Yah.

>I find it immensely amusing that people are now trying to BLAME
>the CIA for the drug "problem".  As if they abducted innocent ghetto
>dwellers and forcibly injected them with heroin or forced them to smoke
>crack at gun-point until they were hooked.

>Every single drug user is a drug user BY CHOICE; it is inappropriate
>choices, not CIA spooks, to blame for the "drug crisis".

>Oh, if only Dole would stand up on his hind legs and say THAT.

>Jim Glass

  See, longtime Beltway Insider Dole *won't* say that -- though both
Reagan and Buchanan would have, at the least, discreetly suggested it
-- after all, ya just can't FORTHRIGHTLY state such self-evident
Truth, 'course -- which is *exactly* why he's gonna lose the elction
and why, I expect, the GOP will be losing many seats in Congress this
November.





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Oct  1 01:45:26 PDT 1996
Article: 94169 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: "Nightmare"  with Disneyland security
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Just ME  wrote:

>Finally an intelligent post to this thread. By the way, I would bet the
>$500.00 was the price of the shop-lifted items, and Security was
>offering this woman a chance to make restitution. It amazes me that
>people believe every one sided story they hear. Sure makes for a slanted
>view of reality.

>Mark

  Another (ignorant) Disney apologist who makes claims that even the
corporation doesn't itself make.
  For the nth time, Disney calls the $500 they ask from ACCUSED -- not
PROVEN IN A COURT OF LAW MIND YOU, MERELY *ACCUSED* (like the mother
whose 2-year-old walked a few feet out of a park store holding a
stuffed toy) -- "civil damages."
  




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