The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/nyms/charles/1996/joebuck.0696


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 07:11:04 PDT 1996
Article: 41353 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Eat less expensively: boycott 'kosher' products
Date: 4 Jun 1996 23:30:03 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  Canadian economists estimate that a typical, smallish "goy" (i,e,
non-Jewish) Canadian family pays upwards of $300.00 Canadian extra
yearly to pay the salaries of rabbis who ensure that many of the
supermarket items they consume are "kosher."
  Clearly, this figure of $300.00 Canadian would have to be adjusted
significantly upwards for families which are larger than the
relatively-low Canadian norm.
  The characterization of a food item as "kosher" merely means that a
Jewish rabbi has "supervised" (however casually or questionably) the
preparation of food products to ensure they contain no pork or do not
include certain combinations of food which are prohibited for Jews to
consume.
  There are strong, purely economics-based arguments that paying a
rabbi to "supervise" the preparation of typical supermarket food
products does nothing to enhance the value of their food purchases for
financially-strapped non-Jewish families, yet these non-Jewish families
continue to be forced to pay additional hundreds of dollars yearly to
subsidize the following of the "dietary laws" of a small,
traditionally-exclusivist minority of their population.
  Extrapolating from the Canadian situation, many feel that consumers
in the U.S., where Jews represent significantly less than 1% of the
general population yet over 73% of recent Cabinet-level presidential
appointments, are likely to be paying substantially higher additional
fees to eat in order to subsidize the presence of rabbis, who are
occasionally characterized as "The Food Gestapo" by non-Jewish
consumers who feel it's unfair to force them to pay hundreds of dollars
annually in order to appease a small but vocal minority.
  What is more outrageous, to such consumers, is that even some
specifially-disallowed food items in Jewish dietary law, such as ham
and other pork products, frequently bear a "U" or the words
"KOSHER-PAREVE" on their labels to indicate that they are "kosher."
Many observers take this as a tacit admission by even the supervising
rabbis that the vast majority of modern Jews themselves do NOT adhere
to their religion's own dietary laws, though non-Jewish consumers must
still pay for the salaries of rabbis whose job it is to ensure they DO.
  Thus, consumers who are over 99% non-Jewish themselves must subsidize
the salaries -- at about $300.00 annually -- of thousands of "problem"
rabbis who are "exiled" by their own superiors in their own religious
hierarchies to commercial food-preparation factories, and whose
responsibility it is to ensure that food is prepared according to
certain Jewish religious laws that even most Jews themselves no longer
follow.
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun  5 07:33:36 PDT 1996
Article: 41065 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 5 Jun 1996 02:24:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 86
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In <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> kamamer@zot.io.org (karl mamer) writes: 
>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes:
>
>>   Canadian economists estimate that a typical Canadian family --
which
>> is not very large nowadays, BTW -- can be expected to pay about
$300.00
>> EXTRA yearly to pay for the Jewish rabbis who perform the strenuous
and
>> indispensible (not) job of making sure Canadian food is prepared
>> according to "kosher" law.
>
>One, please cite who these economists are and where they've published
this
>data.

  A legitimate request. I'll look up the specific references (names,
dates of publication, etc.) as soon as I can get to a library. In the
meantime, if anyone has that info available, please post it ASAP.

> Second, so what? A company wants to make sure it's food products can
>be consumed by as many people as possible. How much does advertising
add
>to the cost of a product? How much does bilingual labelling cost?

  Merely "bilingual labelling" is certainly NOT the issue at all! If it
were, neither I -- nor many other like-minded non-Jewish consumers who
respect the rights of others to hold whatever religious beliefs they
want -- would mind at all that a product has been designated "kosher."
  The point is that food producers are PAYING Jewish rabbis pretty good
salaries -- rabbis who are the officials of a very small (-1% of the
population) but vocal (phenomenally over-represented in journalism,
politics and the media) specific RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- salaries for
doing something which, for most buyers of their products, adds NO VALUE
to what the company sells.       
  Essentially, these food producers -- who, of course, simply pass
along the cost of these rabbis' salaries to the (overwhelmingly
non-Jewish) consumers in the form of higher food prices -- are caving
in to Jewish pressure group intimidation by hiring these quite-possibly
"problem" rabbis as a way to appease the Jews. (After all, what
self-respecting rabbi would want to spend most his time ensuring the
"kosher-ness" of products which he himself realizes will be
overwhelmigly eaten by "goys" (non-Jews), instead of tending to his
flock?
  "Refuse to hire a rabbi to ensure the products you sell are kosher,
will you? Don't be surprised if *we* (Jews) start POUNDING you,
demonizing your company and products relentlessly in the media! How'd
ya like to see a grotesquely-drawn picture of one of your company's
products on the cover of TIME or NEWSWEEK or featured in a '60 Minutes'
'hit piece' under the bold heading 'WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT DANGEROUS,
SHODDY PRODUCTS'? If you thought our recent covers of Newt
Gingrich-as-Scrooge or depictions of Pat Buchanan as a neo-nazi were
bad, we could give YOU the same kind of treatment if you don't put our
rabbis in your factories and pay them good salaries!
  If you don't think this kind of thing happens ALL THE TIME, I think
you're quite naive. Just read the excellent book, "They Dare to Speak
Out: People and Institutions confront the Israel Lobby," edited by a
brave long-time US Congressperson who faced Jewish-American attempted
intimidation of him FOR YEARS. 
 
>I've noticed
>in the states a number of companies, seeking to attrack spanish
speaking
>americans, create products labelled in english and spanish, and gosh
>they pass that cost onto all consumers.

  That's a TOTALLY DIFFERENT ISSUE! Please don't keep confusing them:
  1. In the case of the new bilingually-labelled products,
manufacturers are making their products MORE ACCESSIBLE to a large
group by "using their language." Most Spanish-speaking consumers in the
US are also Roman Catholics: so far as I know, no company has hired and
paid full-time Catholic priests to "bless" their products. Can you
imagine the outrage of the largely-Jewish ACLU if such a thing
happened? Another example of utter, undeniable Jewish hypocrisy, the
pointing out of which, of course, means one will be slandered as an
"anti-semite."
  2. There are WAY, WAY more Catholic Hispanic consumers in the US than
Jewish ones and, not only that, but the birth rates of Hispanic
consumers are skyrocketing -- while those of Jews have been plummeting
for years with no change expected.

  
 
>"Don't be afraid. I'm a Care Bear!"



From kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca Thu Jun  6 08:24:26 PDT 1996
Article: 56060 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!not-for-mail
From: kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,can.general
Subject: Re: Eat less expensively: boycott 'kosher' products
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy
Date: 6 Jun 1996 07:09:47 -0700
Organization: The Nizkor Project
Lines: 31
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In article <4p2gtr$3ql@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, 
joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>  Canadian economists estimate that a typical, smallish "goy" (i,e,
>non-Jewish) Canadian family pays upwards of $300.00 Canadian extra
>yearly to pay the salaries of rabbis who ensure that many of the
>supermarket items they consume are "kosher."

No, Canadian economists did not make such an announcement. You
have been asked to document this specious claim, and have
failed to do so. Why is that, nameless one? Why do you choose
to simply repost the same crap again, without a shred of
proof? Is there an agenda at work here perhaps?

>  Clearly, this figure of $300.00 Canadian would have to be adjusted
>significantly upwards for families which are larger than the
>relatively-low Canadian norm.

Clearly, this figure is utter nonsense. (What has this to do
with Holocaust denial, Nameless?)

See http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/kosher-tax
for informative remarks relating to this particular Nazi
attack on Jewry.


-- 
The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
            [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
            [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 13:51:31 PDT 1996
Article: 95616 of alt.politics.radical-left
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politcs.democrats,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: American Holocaust 34 million dead!
Date: 6 Jun 1996 03:04:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 378
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References: <31B63D36.3B6D@niven.imsweb.net>
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  Read and weep.

In <31B63D36.3B6D@niven.imsweb.net> Bud 
writes: 
>
>Nationwide, over 34 million unborn babies have been killed in the 22 =
>
>years since abortion
>was legalized through the January 22, 1973 Supreme Court decision of
Roe =
>
>v. Wade. =
>
>Today, in this country, an unborn child can be legally killed anytime
=
>
>throughout the entire
>nine months of pregnancy...because he or she may be unwanted, =
>
>inconvenient, possibly
>imperfect, or even the wrong sex.  Each year, an estimated 1.5 million
=
>
>babies are killed by
>abortion, one baby every 20 seconds.
>
>There are several methods of abortion:
>
>DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C): These abortions are usually done before
12 =
>
>weeks gestation.  In a D & C a tiny hoe-like instrument, called a
suction =
>
>cannula, is inserted into the womb.  The abortionist then scrapes the
=
>
>wall of the uterus, cutting the baby's body to pieces. Body parts are
=
>
>then pulled out piece by piece through the cervix.  The scraping of
the =
>
>uterus typically involves some bleeding and other possible side
effects =
>
>that women often find quite painful.
>
>SUCTION ASPIRATION: (Also called "vacuum aspiration")  This method of
=
>
>abortion is used in 90% of all abortions done prior to 12 weeks.  A
tube =
>
>is inserted through the cervix into the uterus and connected to a
strong =
>
>suction apparatus.   The vacuum is so powerful that the tiny baby and
the =
>
>placenta are torn to pieces and sucked out into a jar.  Although the
baby =
>
>is extremely small, body parts are often easily identified.  Sometimes
=
>
>this method follows a D & C.  Infections, damage, and pain in the
cervix =
>
>and uterus can result.
>
>SALINE INJECTION:  (Salt Poisoning)  After sixteen weeks, with this =
>
>procedure, a long needle is inserted through the mother=92s abdomen
and a =
>
>solution of concentrated salt is injected into the amniotic fluid
which =
>
>surrounds the child.  The baby breathes in and swallows the solution
and =
>
>usually dies in one to two hours, sometimes death takes many hours,
>from  =
>
>salt poisoning, dehydration, convulsions, hemorrhages of the brain and
=
>
>failure of other organs.  The baby's skin is burned by the salt.   
The =
>
>baby's thrashing, caused by the trauma of the saline, can be
physically =
>
>painful to his mother, and is often psychologically devastating to
her.  =
>
>The mother goes into labor and a dead baby is delivered, usually
within =
>
>24 to 48 hours.
>
>PROSTAGLANDIN ABORTION:  This drug causes a woman to go into labor at
any =
>
>stage of pregnancy.  It is generally used in middle to late pregnancy
to =
>
>induce abortion.  The potent hormone-like drug, prostaglandin, is =
>
>injected into the amniotic sac.  It produces labor and premature
birth.  =
>
>The unborn baby, in some cases, is born alive and placed aside to die.
 =
>
>In order to avoid what abortionists describe as =93The Dreaded =
>
>Complication=94 of a live birth from a prostaglandin or
salt-poisoning, =
>
>abortionists now customarily kill the child first before
=93evacuating=94 t=
>he =
>
>baby.  Abortionists use ultrasound to guide an injection of lethal =
>
>potassium chloride into an unborn baby=92s heart.  Other abortionists
use =
>
>an injection of digoxin to cause fetal cardiac arrest.  Sometimes salt
is =
>
>injected first, to kill the baby before birth and make the procedure
less =
>
>distressful for the mother.  This method results in a very painful =
>
>abortion for the mother.  Prostaglandins are accompanied by serious =
>
>problems of their own, including potentially lethal side effects.   =
>
>
>HYSTEROTOMY:  A hysterotomy or Caesarean section abortion is used in
the =
>
>last trimester. The womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the
=
>
>abdomen.  It is the same as a live delivery except that the baby is =
>
>killed in the uterus, or is allowed to die from neglect if he is not
yet =
>
>dead upon removal.  This surgical method is done if a saline or =
>
>prostaglandin abortion has failed or when a tubal ligation is done. 
This =
>
>is a major surgery with inherent difficulties, possible complications,
=
>
>and a potentially painful recovery.
>
>DILATION AND EXTRACTION (D&X):  This method of abortion (also known as
a =
>
>Partial Birth Abortion) was publically unveiled in 1992 and is used to
=
>
>kill babies from 20 weeks through full term.  Because the opening of
the =
>
>woman's cervix must be greatly enlarged, the abortion requires three
days =
>
>with repeated visits for insertion of laminaria.  These are
cylindrical =
>
>shaped or tapered devices which are inserted into the cervix and which
=
>
>gradually increase in diameter as they absorb water to dilate the
cervix. =
>
>Three days later the abortion is performed.  The abortionist ruptures
the =
>
>membranes and drains the amniotic fluid.  Using an ultrasound on the =
>
>mother's abdomen, the baby is identified and orientated within the =
>
>uterus.  Having turned the unborn baby inside the uterus so that he or
=
>
>she is orientated feet first and face down toward the floor, the =
>
>abortionist inserts forceps into the vagina, the cervical canal, and
into =
>
>the uterus and grasps one of the baby's legs.  The other leg with the
=
>
>remainder of the torso up to the baby's neck is then pulled outside of
=
>
>the uterus.  The head is "usually" too large to deliver, so a blunt =
>
>scissors is inserted into the base of the living baby's skull and
spread =
>
>apart to enlarge the hole.  The scissors are removed and a suction
tube =
>
>is inserted into the skull and the brains are suctioned out or =
>
>"evacuated."  This kills the baby, collapses the head, and the child
is =
>
>removed.  Then the afterbirth is cut away.  To put the size of the
unborn =
>
>baby at 20 weeks of development into perspective, the majority of D&X
=
>
>aborted babies weigh about a pound, are approximately 8 inches in
length =
>
>(measuring from the top of the head to the bottom of the rump), and
are =
>
>fully formed, with feet roughly 1 inch to 1 1/2 inches in length. 
Babies =
>
>born at this stage of development  (19 or 20 weeks) have survived. =
>
>
>RU 486:  The French-developed "abortion pill" is a powerful
anti-hormone =
>
>(steroid) called mifepristone that interrupts the natural life process
by =
>
>inhibiting production of the progesterone necessary to prepare the =
>
>uterine wall to support the pregnancy.  As a result, the tiny
developing =
>
>baby literally starves to death as the nutrient lining of the womb =
>
>sloughs off, and muscular contractions cause the dead baby to be
expelled =
>
>from the uterus.  It is used to induce abortions between the fifth to
=
>
>ninth weeks of pregnancy.  Women first take RU486 alone.  Within 48 =
>
>hours, only three percent have a completed abortion.  The remainder of
=
>
>the women, ninety-seven percent, must take a second powerful drug, a =
>
>prostaglandin.  In approximately five to ten percent of the women who
use =
>
>the RU486 abortion method, the drugs fail to kill the developing baby
and =
>
>the women usually have follow-up surgical abortions.  RU486 can cause
=
>
>severe disabilities in babies who survive the abortion, can injure and
=
>
>possibly kill women, and could harm a woman's subsequent offspring.  =
>
>Preliminary findings of the first independent studies reveal serious =
>
>under- reporting of the abortion technique's adverse side effects.  At
=
>
>present, RU486 is only licensed for use in France, Britain and Sweden.
 =
>
>It is being tested in other countries, including the United States,
with =
>
>the objective of marketing it extensively over the next several years.
 =
>
>With RU486, a mother will more directly participate in ending the life
of =
>
>her unborn child, and verify that she has passed the "uterine content"
=
>
>that is her dead baby.  Nearly half of the French women polled report
=
>
>that they find this verification process disturbing.
>
>UPDATE: METHOTREXATE AND MISOPROSTOL:  Researchers have discovered
that =
>
>two prescription pharmaceuticals, Methotrexate (prescribed to combat =
>
>cancer and rheumatoid arthritis) and Misoprostol (prescribed as a =
>
>preventative against ulcers caused by common anti-inflammatory drugs)
=
>
>when prescribed in tandem can induce an abortion.  A few doctors have
=
>
>recently used the drugs to induce abortion, while the Food and Drug =
>
>Administration has approved the drugs to treat cancer and ulcers. 
Both =
>
>drugs act on a woman's reproductive system.  Methotrexate interferes
with =
>
>the vitamin folic acid and kills rapidly growing cells.  It has been
used =
>
>for the termination of ectopic pregnancies...the life-threatening =
>
>condition in which fertilized eggs grow outside the uterus. 
Methotrexate =
>
>is a toxic drug that is normally administered by doctors experienced
with =
>
>anti-metabolite therapy.  Toxic effects such as nausea, pain,
diarrhea, =
>
>bone marrow depression, anemia, liver damage and lung disease are
noted =
>
>as occurring even at low doses.  Misoprostol causes uterine
contractions =
>
>and is sometimes used off-label to soften the cervix when inducing
labor. =
>
> The women receive an injection of methotrexate and return 5 to 7 days
=
>
>later to receive the misoprostol vaginally.  The women return home,
where =
>
>cramping and bleeding begins and the baby is usually aborted within =
>
>twenty-four hours. As with RU486, the mother will more directly =
>
>participate in ending the life of her unborn child, and verify that
she =
>
>has passed the "uterine content" that is her dead baby.  No longer
will =
>
>an abortionist be present to share the guilt, or even a nurse to
conceal =
>
>the baby's tiny body.  More than ever, women will be alone in dealing
=
>
>with the physical and psychological aftermath of an abortion.  The
drugs =
>
>must be administered by the ninth week of pregnancy, after that, =
>
>excessive bleeding is likely.    Long term effects of the two drugs
are =
>
>unknown.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun  6 14:02:47 PDT 1996
Article: 41447 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politcs.democrats,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: American Holocaust 34 million dead!
Date: 6 Jun 1996 03:04:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 378
Message-ID: <4p5hr7$of0@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31B63D36.3B6D@niven.imsweb.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca6-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 05 10:04:07 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41447 alt.politics.usa.republican:210295 alt.politics.democrats.d:83683 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:316640 alt.politics.radical-left:95616 alt.politics.perot:48153 alt.conspiracy:56127

  Read and weep.

In <31B63D36.3B6D@niven.imsweb.net> Bud 
writes: 
>
>Nationwide, over 34 million unborn babies have been killed in the 22 =
>
>years since abortion
>was legalized through the January 22, 1973 Supreme Court decision of
Roe =
>
>v. Wade. =
>
>Today, in this country, an unborn child can be legally killed anytime
=
>
>throughout the entire
>nine months of pregnancy...because he or she may be unwanted, =
>
>inconvenient, possibly
>imperfect, or even the wrong sex.  Each year, an estimated 1.5 million
=
>
>babies are killed by
>abortion, one baby every 20 seconds.
>
>There are several methods of abortion:
>
>DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C): These abortions are usually done before
12 =
>
>weeks gestation.  In a D & C a tiny hoe-like instrument, called a
suction =
>
>cannula, is inserted into the womb.  The abortionist then scrapes the
=
>
>wall of the uterus, cutting the baby's body to pieces. Body parts are
=
>
>then pulled out piece by piece through the cervix.  The scraping of
the =
>
>uterus typically involves some bleeding and other possible side
effects =
>
>that women often find quite painful.
>
>SUCTION ASPIRATION: (Also called "vacuum aspiration")  This method of
=
>
>abortion is used in 90% of all abortions done prior to 12 weeks.  A
tube =
>
>is inserted through the cervix into the uterus and connected to a
strong =
>
>suction apparatus.   The vacuum is so powerful that the tiny baby and
the =
>
>placenta are torn to pieces and sucked out into a jar.  Although the
baby =
>
>is extremely small, body parts are often easily identified.  Sometimes
=
>
>this method follows a D & C.  Infections, damage, and pain in the
cervix =
>
>and uterus can result.
>
>SALINE INJECTION:  (Salt Poisoning)  After sixteen weeks, with this =
>
>procedure, a long needle is inserted through the mother=92s abdomen
and a =
>
>solution of concentrated salt is injected into the amniotic fluid
which =
>
>surrounds the child.  The baby breathes in and swallows the solution
and =
>
>usually dies in one to two hours, sometimes death takes many hours,
>from  =
>
>salt poisoning, dehydration, convulsions, hemorrhages of the brain and
=
>
>failure of other organs.  The baby's skin is burned by the salt.   
The =
>
>baby's thrashing, caused by the trauma of the saline, can be
physically =
>
>painful to his mother, and is often psychologically devastating to
her.  =
>
>The mother goes into labor and a dead baby is delivered, usually
within =
>
>24 to 48 hours.
>
>PROSTAGLANDIN ABORTION:  This drug causes a woman to go into labor at
any =
>
>stage of pregnancy.  It is generally used in middle to late pregnancy
to =
>
>induce abortion.  The potent hormone-like drug, prostaglandin, is =
>
>injected into the amniotic sac.  It produces labor and premature
birth.  =
>
>The unborn baby, in some cases, is born alive and placed aside to die.
 =
>
>In order to avoid what abortionists describe as =93The Dreaded =
>
>Complication=94 of a live birth from a prostaglandin or
salt-poisoning, =
>
>abortionists now customarily kill the child first before
=93evacuating=94 t=
>he =
>
>baby.  Abortionists use ultrasound to guide an injection of lethal =
>
>potassium chloride into an unborn baby=92s heart.  Other abortionists
use =
>
>an injection of digoxin to cause fetal cardiac arrest.  Sometimes salt
is =
>
>injected first, to kill the baby before birth and make the procedure
less =
>
>distressful for the mother.  This method results in a very painful =
>
>abortion for the mother.  Prostaglandins are accompanied by serious =
>
>problems of their own, including potentially lethal side effects.   =
>
>
>HYSTEROTOMY:  A hysterotomy or Caesarean section abortion is used in
the =
>
>last trimester. The womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the
=
>
>abdomen.  It is the same as a live delivery except that the baby is =
>
>killed in the uterus, or is allowed to die from neglect if he is not
yet =
>
>dead upon removal.  This surgical method is done if a saline or =
>
>prostaglandin abortion has failed or when a tubal ligation is done. 
This =
>
>is a major surgery with inherent difficulties, possible complications,
=
>
>and a potentially painful recovery.
>
>DILATION AND EXTRACTION (D&X):  This method of abortion (also known as
a =
>
>Partial Birth Abortion) was publically unveiled in 1992 and is used to
=
>
>kill babies from 20 weeks through full term.  Because the opening of
the =
>
>woman's cervix must be greatly enlarged, the abortion requires three
days =
>
>with repeated visits for insertion of laminaria.  These are
cylindrical =
>
>shaped or tapered devices which are inserted into the cervix and which
=
>
>gradually increase in diameter as they absorb water to dilate the
cervix. =
>
>Three days later the abortion is performed.  The abortionist ruptures
the =
>
>membranes and drains the amniotic fluid.  Using an ultrasound on the =
>
>mother's abdomen, the baby is identified and orientated within the =
>
>uterus.  Having turned the unborn baby inside the uterus so that he or
=
>
>she is orientated feet first and face down toward the floor, the =
>
>abortionist inserts forceps into the vagina, the cervical canal, and
into =
>
>the uterus and grasps one of the baby's legs.  The other leg with the
=
>
>remainder of the torso up to the baby's neck is then pulled outside of
=
>
>the uterus.  The head is "usually" too large to deliver, so a blunt =
>
>scissors is inserted into the base of the living baby's skull and
spread =
>
>apart to enlarge the hole.  The scissors are removed and a suction
tube =
>
>is inserted into the skull and the brains are suctioned out or =
>
>"evacuated."  This kills the baby, collapses the head, and the child
is =
>
>removed.  Then the afterbirth is cut away.  To put the size of the
unborn =
>
>baby at 20 weeks of development into perspective, the majority of D&X
=
>
>aborted babies weigh about a pound, are approximately 8 inches in
length =
>
>(measuring from the top of the head to the bottom of the rump), and
are =
>
>fully formed, with feet roughly 1 inch to 1 1/2 inches in length. 
Babies =
>
>born at this stage of development  (19 or 20 weeks) have survived. =
>
>
>RU 486:  The French-developed "abortion pill" is a powerful
anti-hormone =
>
>(steroid) called mifepristone that interrupts the natural life process
by =
>
>inhibiting production of the progesterone necessary to prepare the =
>
>uterine wall to support the pregnancy.  As a result, the tiny
developing =
>
>baby literally starves to death as the nutrient lining of the womb =
>
>sloughs off, and muscular contractions cause the dead baby to be
expelled =
>
>from the uterus.  It is used to induce abortions between the fifth to
=
>
>ninth weeks of pregnancy.  Women first take RU486 alone.  Within 48 =
>
>hours, only three percent have a completed abortion.  The remainder of
=
>
>the women, ninety-seven percent, must take a second powerful drug, a =
>
>prostaglandin.  In approximately five to ten percent of the women who
use =
>
>the RU486 abortion method, the drugs fail to kill the developing baby
and =
>
>the women usually have follow-up surgical abortions.  RU486 can cause
=
>
>severe disabilities in babies who survive the abortion, can injure and
=
>
>possibly kill women, and could harm a woman's subsequent offspring.  =
>
>Preliminary findings of the first independent studies reveal serious =
>
>under- reporting of the abortion technique's adverse side effects.  At
=
>
>present, RU486 is only licensed for use in France, Britain and Sweden.
 =
>
>It is being tested in other countries, including the United States,
with =
>
>the objective of marketing it extensively over the next several years.
 =
>
>With RU486, a mother will more directly participate in ending the life
of =
>
>her unborn child, and verify that she has passed the "uterine content"
=
>
>that is her dead baby.  Nearly half of the French women polled report
=
>
>that they find this verification process disturbing.
>
>UPDATE: METHOTREXATE AND MISOPROSTOL:  Researchers have discovered
that =
>
>two prescription pharmaceuticals, Methotrexate (prescribed to combat =
>
>cancer and rheumatoid arthritis) and Misoprostol (prescribed as a =
>
>preventative against ulcers caused by common anti-inflammatory drugs)
=
>
>when prescribed in tandem can induce an abortion.  A few doctors have
=
>
>recently used the drugs to induce abortion, while the Food and Drug =
>
>Administration has approved the drugs to treat cancer and ulcers. 
Both =
>
>drugs act on a woman's reproductive system.  Methotrexate interferes
with =
>
>the vitamin folic acid and kills rapidly growing cells.  It has been
used =
>
>for the termination of ectopic pregnancies...the life-threatening =
>
>condition in which fertilized eggs grow outside the uterus. 
Methotrexate =
>
>is a toxic drug that is normally administered by doctors experienced
with =
>
>anti-metabolite therapy.  Toxic effects such as nausea, pain,
diarrhea, =
>
>bone marrow depression, anemia, liver damage and lung disease are
noted =
>
>as occurring even at low doses.  Misoprostol causes uterine
contractions =
>
>and is sometimes used off-label to soften the cervix when inducing
labor. =
>
> The women receive an injection of methotrexate and return 5 to 7 days
=
>
>later to receive the misoprostol vaginally.  The women return home,
where =
>
>cramping and bleeding begins and the baby is usually aborted within =
>
>twenty-four hours. As with RU486, the mother will more directly =
>
>participate in ending the life of her unborn child, and verify that
she =
>
>has passed the "uterine content" that is her dead baby.  No longer
will =
>
>an abortionist be present to share the guilt, or even a nurse to
conceal =
>
>the baby's tiny body.  More than ever, women will be alone in dealing
=
>
>with the physical and psychological aftermath of an abortion.  The
drugs =
>
>must be administered by the ninth week of pregnancy, after that, =
>
>excessive bleeding is likely.    Long term effects of the two drugs
are =
>
>unknown.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 07:11:07 PDT 1996
Article: 41511 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 6 Jun 1996 08:03:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 78
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In <4p5tki$s5p@netaxs.com> alpert@netaxs.com (Robert Alpert) writes: 
>
>Charles (joebuck@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>   Call me a "15-year-old kid," will you? 
>
>That comment is probably being unfair to 15-year olds everywhere.
>However, whatever his age, it is certainly apparent that "joebuck" is 
>a bigoted ass.

  I know you are but what am I?

>> '15-year-old kid,' will you? And your proof for this is . . . ?"
>
>"Joebuck's" overall persona is that of a particularly immature kid.  

  I know you are but what am I?

>If 
>he is much over the age of 15, more's the pity.
>
>Of course he has still have not provided a shred of evidence 

  I have too has too provided . . .!   

>for any
>of his anti-Jewish contentions. 

  Alputz's definition of "anti-Jewish" = someone who criticizes Israel
or points out an issue in which a Jew may be seen as hypocritical or
who may not be considered by most fair observers to be the "good guy."
How awful!  

> (No surprise here.)  He is once again 
>simply raising a smokescreen in an unsuccessful attempt to sidestep
those 
>who point out the lack of evidence for his bigoted claims.

  "Bigoted"? Let's look at this for a moment: you and your fellow
apologists for Israel, to my knowledge, have NEVER conceded ANY area in
which Israel *may* have, after all, been at fault.
  Are you so easily intimidated that you can't bring yourselves to
admit these areas?
  Also, you continually accuse others of being "mean-spirited," yet it
is YOU who constantly resort to vicious name-calling. I, and perhaps
many others, would call that hypocrisy.
  Example: the near-traitorous denial by several online Jews of the
eyewitness accounts by survivors of Israel's much covered-up attack on
the USS Liberty naval vessel.
  I'm nothing short of amazed, for example, at the chutzpah shown by
those Jewish-"American" apologists for Israel who either say a. the
ship's survivors are lying about what they PERSONALLY witnessed of the
Israeli attack; or b. the USS Liberty survivors -- young, non-political
sailors when Israel attacked them, killing 34 of their fellow US
servicemen -- are "anti-semitic" for telling the well-documented facts
of what they PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED during Israel's murderous, wanton
attack.
  I cannot imagine, say, Irish-Americans, Latin-Americans,
Italian-Americans, et al literally brazenly making themselves the
self-appointed mouthpieces and apologists of a foreign power --
especially when Israel's guilt for the attack has been so thoroughly
documented in the years since it occurred. 
  Believe me, the sight of Jewish-"Americans" -- themselves so
under-represented in the US military services (but not in Israel's, I
can assure you!) engenders more TRUE anti-semitism -- which is
abhorrant -- than anything a genuine Nazi could hope to accomplish.
Which is both ironic and unfortunate.

>"Joebuck" no doubt also still thinks that procmail filtering is "net 
>abuse," too.  (He never did wise up to what was going on.)  What a 
>pathetic boob...

  See what I mean, folks?

>-- 
     Bob Alputz
     alputz@netaxs.com
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 07:11:09 PDT 1996
Article: 41521 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 6 Jun 1996 02:33:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 188
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In <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve
Bartman) writes: 
>
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>>In article <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>
>>>  The point is that food producers are PAYING Jewish rabbis pretty
good
>>>salaries -- rabbis who are the officials of a very small (-1% of the
>>>population) but vocal (phenomenally over-represented in journalism,
>>>politics and the media) specific RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- salaries
for
>>>doing something which, for most buyers of their products, adds NO
VALUE
>>>to what the company sells.       
>
>>Are they? And your proof for this is....? How much does a
>>company pay to have a product certified as kosher? What does
>>"kosher" mean? 
>
>First of all, let me say that the person who began this thread is an
>uneducated, bigoted ass.

  How kind of you. 
  
>That said, I have a bit of experience with this issue. I worked as a
>product manager for Kraft General Foods (Maxwell House Coffee), and
>Nabisco (Planters nuts); both divisions produce products certified
>kosher.
>
>The easiest way to dissolve this pinhead's

  I-KNOW-YOU-ARE-BUT-WHAT-AM-I?
 
> contentions is to say that
>the companies certifying kosher do not do so only to capture the
>Jewish consumer.

  Not true. They do it to avoid the hassle of becoming the brunt of
media attacks on them: attacks which could, if they occurred, have a
serious effect on sales. 
  No company would want to risk being demonized in the media because it
refused to hire a rabbi (at $5,000.00/day, as you admit below) to
"certify" its food products as "kosher." Not only would it likely be
openly characterized as "a neo-nazi company" but it might become the
victim of the all-too-typical, politically-motivated media "hit piece"
(e.g. "Without rabbis to "supervise," is Company X now selling possibly
unwholesome and dangerous food products? We look into this startling
possibility in tonight's show.")

> It is a fact of long standing, which has been HEAVILY
>researched through statistically valid means,

  And your proof for this assertion is . . . ?

> that non-Jewish
>consumers, in the aggregate, consider a kosher mark proof of a
>'higher' quality product.

  Look, superstitions such as that "kosher" = "better" are notoriously
hard to fight. 
  However, rather than continue -- indeed, REINFORCE -- people's 
superstitions about this, it would be more ethical for companies  to
educate the consumer as to how it's really quite unnecessary for a
rabbi to be paid $10,000.00 for two-days "work" to "certify" what the
largely non-Jewish consumers buy. Because who, ultimately, picks up the
tab for the rabbi's $5,000.00/day salary? The largely non-Jewish
consumers, of course.
 
> Many do not know exactly what the mark
>means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it.

  Wow, as an employee -- a MANAGER, at that! -- of Kraft and Nabisco
you don't seem to have a very high opinion of the consumers of those
companies' products. They "do not know exactly what the mark means, but
they know it is a 'good thing' . . . " 
  I wonder what the top officials of those companies would think of an
employee who apparently looks down on the very people who buy their
merchandise?
  
> This
>is such a well-known phenomenon that it is not even debated in the
>world of food marketing.
>
>What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of,

  Did you say a "nut plant"? Figures. :-)

> one that
>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a full
>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
>organization's fee.
>
>One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to
>comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over
>$5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2
>billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer.

  Unbelievable, how you're desperately trying to connect two entirely
DIFFERENT things?
  The FDA-mandated nutritional labels were NOT "mandated" by any
particular RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- much less one that comprises less
than 1% of the nation's consumers!
  The FDA is a G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T-A-L agency, certainly *NOT* a
smallish (-1% of the population) traditionally exclusivist
RACIAL/RELIGIOUS organization. As such, it's purpose is to serve ALL
the people -- not just the members of a specific racial/religious
congregation.
  Duh!

> There are at least three competing rabbinical groups that offer
>certification, and it gets quite complex (some are stricter than
>others, some consumers will only recognize one or the other), but it
>can be said there is a crude form of price competition among them.

  Yes, we can all certainly SEE that there's real "price competition
among them"! NOT!
  $5,000.00 for 8 hours of "work" spent "crawling over equipment,
looking at records and invoices," etc. "Tough work but somebody's got
to do it," I guess, huh?
  I can just hear the bidding rabbi now: "Mr. Food Company President,
believe me, I'm LOSING money on this deal! $5000.00/day for two days of
work in your factory per year: that's my FINAL OFFER! A guy's gotta
make a living, you know! And I won't even charge you extra for making
me climb the ladder to reach that mixer!"  

>Given the price per pound for nuts, and extrapolating to an annual
>market basket, I find a $300/yr/family figure absurd.
>
>The pre-Passover inspection, which requires the plant be taken down
>and thouroughly cleaned, is also a 'good thing' for consumers. The
>plant managers told me they were not inconvenienced by it, but rather
>scheduled training and preventative maintenance around the rabbi's
>visit. Just part of the annual cycle.

  This statement sheds light on possible dangers that we weren't even
aware of. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
  It seems that there may be a temptation for companies to neglect
"scheduled training and preventative maintenance" until the word gets
out that "THE RABBI'S COMING! HURRY, WE GOTTA CLEAN THIS PLACE UP!"
  What happens during the other 364 days of the year before and after
the day of the rabbi's visit?
  Proper sanitation, maintenance and training of personnel should not
be the direct results of an impending visit of a rabbi or anyone else,
but YEAR-ROUND practices.
   
>Finally, although the Jewish community is concentated in the US in
>several key cities (like NYC), for some products their patronage is
>important. Maxwell House's strongest US market (out of 16 even
>geographic divisions) was the New York market. The Maxwell House
>Passover Haggadah (sp?) consumer promotion, where the company prints
>up the booklets used in the seder ceremony, and includes coupons, is
>the longest continuosly running consumer promotion in the United
>States, going back to the early 1930s--they've never missed a year,
>and are quite proud of the fact.

  That makes sense.
  But why must consumers in other parts of the country which have
negligible Jewish populations also have to contribute towards that
$5,000.00/day salary the rabbi receives?

>So, the kosher certification issue is, like most issues when you
>actually know what you're talking about, quite complex. Which doesn't
>make it a conspiracy. At worst it's a naked business decision; at best
>a generous, inclusionary gesture to a religious group with a proud
>history and a stake in the foundation of the United States.
>
   . . . OR it could also be something which, while it really WOULDN'T
make sense in a truly free, "un-politicized" market in the vast
majority of cases, IS "a naked business decision" in the sense that
it's ALWAYS prudent business practice to avoid provoking a small but
vocal and politically-powerful minority which could damage your company
through media "hit pieces" and through sheer government intervention.
THAT'S the "naked business decision" these companies make, and I
understand why they do so . . . though I wish their leaders were in a
position to be more frank about it.
  
>Regards
>
>Steve Bartman
>sbartman@ix.netcom.com
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 19:34:41 PDT 1996
Article: 41677 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 7 Jun 1996 08:06:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 319
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In <4p6t6l$oac@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve
Bartman) writes: 
>
>Well, Chuckie, I certainly seem to have gotten your attention with a
>few facts. Not used to ranting at someone who's been there-done that
>are you?
>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>
>
>>  Not true. They do it to avoid the hassle of becoming the brunt of
>>media attacks on them: attacks which could, if they occurred, have a
>>serious effect on sales. 
>
>Funny, when I looked around the conference room when the annual
>decision to recertify came up I didn't see your pale, sweating face
>there. Are you invisible? Telepathic?
>
>Nor did I see you holding up a placard at the back of the room when
>the Marketing Research staff presented analysis of volume behavior
>between kosher and non-kosher SKUs. (You did study what an SKU is in
>your marketing curriculum, didn't you Chuckie?)
>
>So, it seems your presumption is nothing more than a paranoid fantasy,
>which we knew, but that you continue to reenforce with each new post.
>..
>>  No company would want to risk being demonized in the media because
it
>>refused to hire a rabbi (at $5,000.00/day, as you admit below) to
>>"certify" its food products as "kosher."
>
>This is a valid statement, but since its premise is untrue, the
>statement is untrue. (You did study classical Logic in school, right
>Chuckie?) And no need for the quote marks: certify its food products
>as kosher is perfectly fine and proper. Your attempt to show the
>process as odd or improper is lame and displays your ignorance.
>
>Not only would it likely be
>>openly characterized as "a neo-nazi company" but it might become the
>>victim of the all-too-typical, politically-motivated media "hit
piece"
>>(e.g. "Without rabbis to "supervise," is Company X now selling
possibly
>>unwholesome and dangerous food products? We look into this startling
>>possibility in tonight's show.")
>
>Perhaps in the media sources a sad, little person such as yourself
>peruse.
>
>>> It is a fact of long standing, which has been HEAVILY
>>>researched through statistically valid means,
>
>>  And your proof for this assertion is . . . ?
>
>Internal, proprietary documents you have no right to see. Or, you
>could go to any business school library and read the volumes of
>research open to the public. I've done my work, I won't do yours.
>
>>> that non-Jewish
>>>consumers, in the aggregate, consider a kosher mark proof of a
>>>'higher' quality product.
>
>>  Look, superstitions such as that "kosher" = "better" are
notoriously
>>hard to fight.
>
>"Consider" does not equal "superstition." You twist my words.
>Clumsily. And, there is no need to "fight" the perception. It exists,
>it makes some consumers more secure. That is, in marketing terms, one
>of the "bundle of benefits" in the product and the transaction stream.
> 
>>  However, rather than continue -- indeed, REINFORCE -- people's 
>>superstitions about this,
>
>Moving from another untrue premise ("keeping kosher=superstition"), we
>move to another untrue conclusion. Where did you say you went to
>school?
>
> it would be more ethical for companies  to
>>educate the consumer as to how it's really quite unnecessary for a
>>rabbi to be paid $10,000.00 for two-days "work" to "certify" what the
>>largely non-Jewish consumers buy. Because who, ultimately, picks up
the
>>tab for the rabbi's $5,000.00/day salary? The largely non-Jewish
>>consumers, of course.
>>
>There's so much that is wrong, misinformed, and just plain dumb here I
>don't know where to start. First, companies exist to produce returns
>on their shareholders' money, while complying with laws and
>regulations. Period. "Ethical" ain't in there unless, as is usually
>the case, it aids the overall goal of profitability. Actively seeking
>to drive away paying customers would not be ethical, just stupid.
>
>Second, the kosher mark is not "unnecessary" if the firm wants sales
>from observant Jews. Since their money is as good as anyone else's the
>question becomes a cost/benefit analysis. I've told you that these are
>in fact performed; the cost of certification is minimal versus the
>revenue and margin attained from those sales. Presto, a decision
>emerges. Certify, and make money. See, no conspiracy, Chuckie.
>Fiduciary law perhaps, serving the shareholders perhaps, but no master
>plan to cheat Chuckie.
>
>Third, the dollar figure I quoted is not for "two-day's work", it is
>an annual fee for everything associated with the mark, including the
>reputation of the organization giving it. Do you think the Good
>Housekeeping seal, or the Underwriter's Laboratory mark are free?
>Firms pay a LOT of consultants, trade groups, lobbyists, designers,
>researchers, and trade magazines in the course of building and running
>a business. Ten thousand dollars is nothing. And, again, it's a
>private business decision that you are not being invited to vote on,
>except with your retail dollar, or by becoming a voting shareholder.
>
>>> Many do not know exactly what the mark
>>>means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it.
>
>>  Wow, as an employee -- a MANAGER, at that! -- of Kraft and Nabisco
>>you don't seem to have a very high opinion of the consumers of those
>>companies' products. They "do not know exactly what the mark means,
but
>>they know it is a 'good thing' . . . " 
>>  I wonder what the top officials of those companies would think of
an
>>employee who apparently looks down on the very people who buy their
>>merchandise?
>
>Well, they promoted me, so . . .
>
>Again, you display a total lack of understanding of marketing or
>consumer behavior. I had a tremendous respect for our consumers, and
>their obvious high intelligence at choosing our products. I stood in
>the aisles of grocery stores many times discussing their perceptions
>of our products in detail, I attended lots of focus groups, I read
>mail and comment cards. I never tried to change their perceptions
>about a matter of personal preference, however. (This is clearly
>different than providing factual information or correcting a factual
>mis-perception.) No businessperson in a right mind sets out to say to
>a potential customer: "What you believe is stupid. Now, would you like
>to buy something of mine?" Maybe in Chuckie-land that's smart, but
>then we know you don't live in the same world the rest of us do.
>  
>>> one that
>>>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
>>>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
>>>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a
full
>>>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
>>>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
>>>organization's fee.
>>>
>>>One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to
>>>comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over
>>>$5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2
>>>billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer.
>
>>  Unbelievable, how you're desperately trying to connect two entirely
>>DIFFERENT things?
>>  The FDA-mandated nutritional labels were NOT "mandated" by any
>>particular RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- much less one that comprises
less
>>than 1% of the nation's consumers!
>>  The FDA is a G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T-A-L agency, certainly *NOT* a
>>smallish (-1% of the population) traditionally exclusivist
>>RACIAL/RELIGIOUS organization. As such, it's purpose is to serve ALL
>>the people -- not just the members of a specific racial/religious
>>congregation.
>>  Duh!
>
>Duh! back. Chuckie plainly shows he cannot think non-linearly. I was
>showing an order-of-magnitude example of typical packaging costs
>unrelated to the kosher issue.
>
>Again, the decision to certify, or not (many firms choose not to) is a
>PRIVATE business decision. If the government mandated certification
>I'd be on this NG yelling as loudly as I could. But they don't.
>(BTW, if you think the FDA reg. changes were not motivated by interest
>groups I have a bridge to sell you.)
>
>And, just for kicks, since you keep bringing up this 1% figure for the
>Jewish population, what would be the EXACT size a specific group
>should be before a firm should perform any special, cost-incurring
>operation on its product line? I need an exact figure, Chuckie, with
>analysis. Upper management won't settle for your kind of squishy
>logic. Don't worry, we'll wait.
> 
>>> There are at least three competing rabbinical groups that offer
>>>certification, and it gets quite complex (some are stricter than
>>>others, some consumers will only recognize one or the other), but it
>>>can be said there is a crude form of price competition among them.
>
>>  Yes, we can all certainly SEE that there's real "price competition
>>among them"! NOT!
>
>I've seen the bids. And you've seen them where? . . .
>
>>  $5,000.00 for 8 hours of "work" spent "crawling over equipment,
>>looking at records and invoices," etc. "Tough work but somebody's got
>>to do it," I guess, huh?
>
>Again, you completely miss the point. You insist on implying these
>rabbis do some sort of "drive-by" certification. I'm telling you they
>take their responsibility much more seriously. They get dirty, they
>sweat, they ask questions. I've seen management consultants paid a lot
>more for a lot less.
>
>And yes, since you brought it up, "somebody" has to do it, and that
>somebody is a professional who studied for many years to attain his
>station. When you go to the doctor do you expect to pay?
>
>>  I can just hear the bidding rabbi now: "Mr. Food Company President,
>>believe me, I'm LOSING money on this deal! $5000.00/day for two days
of
>>work in your factory per year: that's my FINAL OFFER! A guy's gotta
>>make a living, you know! And I won't even charge you extra for making
>>me climb the ladder to reach that mixer!"  
>
>Don't quit your day job, Chuckie. There are already enough bad
>stand-up acts.
>
>>>Given the price per pound for nuts, and extrapolating to an annual
>>>market basket, I find a $300/yr/family figure absurd.
>
>I see you didn't respond to this. What's the matter? You were pretty
>fast and loose with the $300 claim. Are you dropping this absurd (I
>say again) contention?
>
>>>The pre-Passover inspection, which requires the plant be taken down
>>>and thouroughly cleaned, is also a 'good thing' for consumers. The
>>>plant managers told me they were not inconvenienced by it, but
rather
>>>scheduled training and preventative maintenance around the rabbi's
>>>visit. Just part of the annual cycle.
>
>>  This statement sheds light on possible dangers that we weren't even
>>aware of. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
>
>"Possible dangers!" Run for the hills! It's okay Chuckie, the FDA (and
>the USDA on the raw material) do a pretty good job, no conspiracy
>loons need involve themselves.
>
>>  It seems that there may be a temptation for companies to neglect
>>"scheduled training and preventative maintenance" until the word gets
>>out that "THE RABBI'S COMING! HURRY, WE GOTTA CLEAN THIS PLACE UP!"
>>  What happens during the other 364 days of the year before and after
>>the day of the rabbi's visit?
>
>Normal sanitation to company QA norms (which exceed the FDA
>requirements.) Normal corrective maintenance. Have you ever worked
>around machinery, Chuckie? It's hard to do preventative maitenance
>(again, another private business decision to minimize overhead through
>unplanned downtime) on rotating machinery. And, if you knew the first
>thing about the process involved in kosher certification, and Jewish
>dietary laws, you wouldn't have posted the above. But you don't, and
>you did, and I'm not going to educate you here.
>
>>  Proper sanitation, maintenance and training of personnel should not
>>be the direct results of an impending visit of a rabbi or anyone
else,
>>but YEAR-ROUND practices.
>
>GIve it a rest, fool.
>   
>>>Finally, although the Jewish community is concentated in the US in
>>>several key cities (like NYC), for some products their patronage is
>>>important. Maxwell House's strongest US market (out of 16 even
>>>geographic divisions) was the New York market. The Maxwell House
>>>Passover Haggadah (sp?) consumer promotion, where the company prints
>>>up the booklets used in the seder ceremony, and includes coupons, is
>>>the longest continuosly running consumer promotion in the United
>>>States, going back to the early 1930s--they've never missed a year,
>>>and are quite proud of the fact.
>
>>  That makes sense.
>
>Of course it does, as does everything else I've told you.
>
>>  But why must consumers in other parts of the country which have
>>negligible Jewish populations also have to contribute towards that
>>$5,000.00/day salary the rabbi receives?
>
>Listen carefully, Chuckie, I'll only say this one more time: they
>don't have to "must" anything. It's a market. Don't participate if
>that little 'U' or 'K' bothers you. Eat sand for all I care. It's a
>private transaction, freely entered into. If you don't like the
>price--seeya.
>
>>>So, the kosher certification issue is, like most issues when you
>>>actually know what you're talking about, quite complex. Which
doesn't
>>>make it a conspiracy. At worst it's a naked business decision; at
best
>>>a generous, inclusionary gesture to a religious group with a proud
>>>history and a stake in the foundation of the United States.
>>>
>>   . . . OR it could also be something which,
>
>The stable currency of conspiracy loons: :Or it COULD be . . ."
>
> while it really WOULDN'T
>>make sense in a truly free, "un-politicized" market in the vast
>>majority of cases, IS "a naked business decision" in the sense that
>>it's ALWAYS prudent business practice to avoid provoking a small but
>>vocal and politically-powerful minority which could damage your
company
>>through media "hit pieces" and through sheer government intervention.
>>THAT'S the "naked business decision" these companies make, and I
>>understand why they do so . . . though I wish their leaders were in a
>>position to be more frank about it.
>
>Their leaders are not obligated to be frank with Chuckie about
>anything, zip, zilch, nada. They work for their shareholders. Once you
>understand that basic fact, get back to me. Until then, you're just
>tiresome.
>  
>Steve Bartman
>>>sbartman@ix.netcom.com

  What's your point? :-)
  



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 19:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 41678 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 7 Jun 1996 08:08:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4p718j$kg6@scoop.eco.twg.com> chall@eco.twg.com (Charles Don Hall)
writes: 
>
>In article <4p5g29$f08@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Charles  wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>  Not true. They do it to avoid the hassle of becoming the brunt of
>>media attacks on them: attacks which could, if they occurred, have a
>>serious effect on sales. 
>>  No company would want to risk being demonized in the media because
it
>>refused to hire a rabbi (at $5,000.00/day, as you admit below) to
>>"certify" its food products as "kosher." Not only would it likely be
>>openly characterized as "a neo-nazi company" but it might become the
>>victim of the all-too-typical, politically-motivated media "hit
piece"
>>(e.g. "Without rabbis to "supervise," is Company X now selling
possibly
>>unwholesome and dangerous food products? We look into this startling
>>possibility in tonight's show.")
>
>Has this ever actually happened?
>
>I mean, the makers of all-beef kosher hot-dogs are in direct 
>competition with the non-kosher hot-dog industry. And they're
>at a disadvantage, too: The non-kosher variety is a lot cheaper.
>
>So how come I've never seen a "hit piece" calling the good 
>folks at Oscar Meyer "neo-nazis" who can't be trusted because
>they don't have "rabbis to 'supervise'" them?
>
>If I didn't know better, I'd swear that you're just making
>this stuff up as you go. 
>
>
>[You know what I *really* want to see? A good, hard-hitting
>news story on the nefarious makers of hot-dog *buns*. I
>mean, if hot-dogs come in packages of 10, why do the buns
>come in packages of 8? What's the deal? Andy Rooney was
>investigating this at one point, and I heard that he had
>to stop because of death threats.]

  I just KNEW you were a conspiracy nut. :-)
>
>[Irrelevant groups trimmed from followups.]
>
>-- 
>
>===========================================================
>Charles Don Hall, Licensed Philosopher  (chall@eco.twg.com)
>===========================================================



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun  7 19:34:43 PDT 1996
Article: 41681 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 7 Jun 1996 08:17:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <6JUN199612371462@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>In article <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) writes...
>
>    Thank you for an excellent post rebutting this kosher tax
antisemitism.
>
>>That said, I have a bit of experience with this issue. I worked as a
>>product manager for Kraft General Foods (Maxwell House Coffee), and
>>Nabisco (Planters nuts); both divisions produce products certified
>>kosher....
>> 
>>What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of, one that
>>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
>>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
>>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a
full
>>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
>>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
>>organization's fee.
>
>    So, based on these figures it would seem that the cost of the
rabbi
>    roughly works out to be one onehundredth of one cent for each half
>    pound container of peanuts.  So if a person consumed a half pound
>    container of peanuts every day for a year, that person would have
>    contributed about 3.7 cents towards the commission of the rabbi. 
A far
>    cry from $300.
>
  First of all, I don't accept your silly, specious, conclusion that
paying a rabbi $5,000.00/day to "certify" products as "kosher" amounts
to just "a few cents" extra.
  However, what I really want to mention here is how much your above
reasoning to the effect, "So what if people have to pay higher prices?
It's only a few cents more they'll have to pay in any case . . . "
reminds me, in its attitude, of Jews' frequently-heard justification
for Israel's literal theft of the homes and lands of Palestinians: "So
what if we took their land? There are several Arab countries who could
afford to give the Palestinians some land as a replacement for what we
took from them." 
  I'm not too optimistic that you'll see the attitudinal connection,
though.

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:42:38 PDT 1996
Article: 41712 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 7 Jun 1996 07:51:53 GMT
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In <4p6kiu$oq0@netaxs.com> alpert@netaxs.com (Robert Alpert) writes: 
>
>Charles (joebuck@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>   Alputz's definition of "anti-Jewish" = someone who criticizes
Israel
>> or points out an issue in which a Jew may be seen as hypocritical or
>
>This is of course patently untrue.  Imbecile-American "joebuck's" 
                                     ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
>current hate-mongering regarding kosher foods certainly has nothing to
>do with either of those topics.   I'm certain there is much to
>criticize about Israel and like anyone else, Jews may be certainly
>be hypocritical.  Expressing such opinions without supporting evidence
>may certainly be viewed as bigoted, as may concentrating one's
                            ^^^^^^^
>criticisms constantly on a particular minority group or groups.

  Get out the violins, folks . . . I hear it coming: because the
European Jews suffered terrible persecution 50 years ago -- something
which ALL decent people decry -- it's supposedly "improper," nowadays
in the 1990s, to criticize Israel -- which proudly calls itself "The
Jewish State" -- when it tragically and ultra-hypocritically mirrors
the very same actions of the Nazis in its dealings with, say, the
Palestinians.
  You wanna talk about Jews having their property confiscated by Nazis
in 1938? Fine. I prefer to talk about the multitudes of Palestinians --
whose families have lived in Palestine for millennia (as long as, if
not significantly longer than, the Jews themselves) -- who've had their
ancestral lands and homes confiscated by Israel since the 1940's to the
1990's. 
  Today's Jews are frequently heard saying, quite openly, "Well, the
Arabs have so much land and Israel is just a small country. The other
Arab countries can give some land to the Palestinians whose lands we've
"appropriated" [translation: stolen]. 
  Now, imagine if someone today tried to argue that the Nazi
"appropriations" of Jewish property wasn't so terrible because (as WAS
true) there were many, many wealthy Jews in other parts of the world at
the time who "could have" given those Jews whom the Nazis robbed some
of their own property.
  Anyone today would, of course, find such an argument outrageous, to
say the least.
  But why is it such a bad thing when I point out disturbing
similarities such as these? You really need to do some self-reflection,
Mr. Alputz. Perhaps you'll be man enough to realize I *may" have a
legitimate point. 
    
>>   "Bigoted"? Let's look at this for a moment: you and your fellow
>> apologists for Israel, to my knowledge, have NEVER conceded ANY area
in
>
>More of Imbecile-American "joebuck's" lies and misdirections.  I have 
         ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
>never apologized for Israel.   And whether "apologists for Israel"
>have conceded any area or not has no bearing on whether "joebuck"
>is a bigot.  It is simply off-point.
      ^^^^^
>
>>   Also, you continually accuse others of being "mean-spirited," yet
it
>
>Still more lies.  I have never called anyone here "mean-spirited."
>I have called a select few ("joebuck" among them) imbeciles, idiots,
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^
>racists, anti-Semites, and/or bigots.  These are badges which have
 ^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^         ^^^^^^
>been earned by those who wear them.
>
>>   See what I mean, folks?
>
>I call 'em as I see 'em.  Remember, "Joebuck" is the clueless twerp 
                                                      ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^
>who went on and on in several threads, practically foaming at the
>mouth regarding so-called "Net abuse" for simply e-mailing him
courtesy 
>copies of replies to his articles and using a procmail filter to
>assure his replies would be in public. 

  Well, if ya wanna be like THAT . . . aren't you the SAME Alputz who
swallowed as 100% kosher . . . er, authentic . . . my OBVIOUSLY
tongue-in-cheek contention that the US government buys weaopons from a
company called "Bombs-R-Us"?
  After I revealed this example of naivete-in-the-extreme (or just
plain lack of sophistication) you tried to "explain" yourself out of it
by saying you were "tired" or you "weren't paying attention" or some
such lame excuse.
  Believe me, even though this incident occurred some weeks ago, it's
still got ROFL potential! :-0

 However, this incident provides 
>us with a valuable insight into his mindset. 

  Likewise, I'm sure! :-0

> Much of his ranting and
>raving

  Who's the one known for his "ranting and raving"? Me -- who almost
ALWAYS write in a well-moderated tone, even when dealing with very
controversial issues -- or you, who may very well be the "name-caller
of the century"?
  Which is why I must revert to that silly child's refrain, "I KNOW YOU
ARE BUT WHAT AM I?" with such frequency when dealing with you.
 Just read your own words above: "imbeciles," "idiots," "racists," and
"anti-semites" are par for the course with you. Grow up. 

> about Jews is similar in that it has no basis in fact or is
>grossly exaggerated.
>
>All I see here is a another worthless bigoted fool.  Not to mention   
                             ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^

>fact that "joebuck" has yet to provide a shred of evidence for many
>(if not all) of the claims which precipitated this ongoing
"discussion."  
>His incessent whining is not sufficient smokescreen to conceal that
fact.
>
>On the other hand, "joebuck" has certainly provided adequate
information 
>for folks to come to their own conclusions about him and his opinions.
 
>I stand by mine.
>
>-- 
>     Bob Alpert
>     alpert@netaxs.com
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 06:42:41 PDT 1996
Article: 41767 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 7 Jun 1996 08:23:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4p82k5$bff@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve
Bartman) writes: 
>
>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote:
>
>>In article <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve Bartman) writes...
>
>>    Thank you for an excellent post rebutting this kosher tax
antisemitism.
>
>You're very welcome.
>
>> 
>>>What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of, one that
>>>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
>>>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
>>>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a
full
>>>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
>>>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
>>>organization's fee.
>
>>    So, based on these figures it would seem that the cost of the
rabbi
>>    roughly works out to be one onehundredth of one cent for each
half
>>    pound container of peanuts.  So if a person consumed a half pound
>>    container of peanuts every day for a year, that person would have
>>    contributed about 3.7 cents towards the commission of the rabbi. 
A far
>>    cry from $300.
>
>If I remember my scanner data, a 'heavy user' of peanuts (household,
>not individual) buys about 50 ounces PER YEAR. (This is a problem. The
>category is declining as Frito et al have taken over salty snacks.) I
>don't have a calculator handy, but you can see the order of magnitude.
>
>Of course, most kosher issues settle on prepared meat and dairy
>products, so you'd have to put them in a market basket. But many other
>products either can never be kosher, or their producers don't bother.
>Regional and family-run businesses often don't do certification so
>they'd be excluded from the basket. Even so, if the typical cost of
>the basket  is more than $.25/household/year I'd be surprised. 
>
>Steve 
>
  I dub you "Steve Bartman, King of the Snack Foods." Man, NO ONE knows
snack foods like you do! You look up "snack food" in the dictionary,
there's a picture of Steve Bartman!
  (Hey, between us, any truth in that rumour about the low-cal
Cheez-Doodles, that whole mess with the Lays litigation, you know what
I mean . . . ?} 


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 12:41:07 PDT 1996
Article: 41837 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.politics
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIES
Date: 8 Jun 1996 03:27:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4p9ife$nhn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>In article <4p63bm$nfq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>
>>  Alputz's definition of "anti-Jewish" = someone who criticizes
Israel
>>or points out an issue in which a Jew may be seen as hypocritical or
>>who may not be considered by most fair observers to be the "good
guy."
>>How awful!  
>
>"Anti-Jewish" must of course include someone who would post a
>deliberate lie with regard to Jewish-related issues, and then
>refuse to document or retract.
>
>In other words, if you are a liar, and you are lying about
>Jewish (and Moslem) issues, it is highly likely that you are
>anti-Jewish. Capish?
>
  Ha, ha, ha. Just like so many Jews, trying to act "Italian," huh?

>>  "Bigoted"? Let's look at this for a moment: you and your fellow
>>apologists for Israel, to my knowledge, have NEVER conceded ANY area
in
>>which Israel *may* have, after all, been at fault.
>
>Have you been to the library yet?
>
And they accuse ME of changing the subject!

>>  Are you so easily intimidated that you can't bring yourselves to
>>admit these areas?
>
>Have you been to the library yet?
>
Anad they accuse ME of changing the subject!

>>  Also, you continually accuse others of being "mean-spirited," yet
it
>>is YOU who constantly resort to vicious name-calling. I, and perhaps
>>many others, would call that hypocrisy.
>
>Have you been to the library yet?
>
And they accuse ME of changing the subject!

>>  Example: the near-traitorous denial by several online Jews of the
>>eyewitness accounts by survivors of Israel's much covered-up attack
on
>>the USS Liberty naval vessel.
>
>Have you been to the library yet?
>
And they accuse ME of changing the subject!

>>  I'm nothing short of amazed, for example, at the chutzpah shown by
>>those Jewish-"American" apologists for Israel who either say a. the
>
>Have you been to the library yet?

And they accuse ME of changing the subject!

>>  Believe me, the sight of Jewish-"Americans" -- themselves so
>>under-represented in the US military services (but not in Israel's, I
>
>Have you been to the library yet?
>
And they accuse ME of changing the subject!

>>  See what I mean, folks?
>
>Oh, yes, we see exactly what you mean.
>
Have you been to the library yet?
When you go, look for, "They dare to Speak Out: People and Institutions
Confront the Israel Lobby," by former-Congressperson Paul Findlay, who
documents how the paid Israel Lobby in Washington unethically and
outrageously interferes in the American Government.

>Archive/File: people/nyms/charles/charles-10q
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/06
>
>Sir... Your public remarks here on the net have raised a few
>points which should be resolved. I have, in the interest of
>resolution, provided a compilation here, and trust you will
>make use of it, and provide clarification.
>
>I will remind you from time to time, knowing how busy you must
>be, by reposting these queries on a regular basis.
>
>Questions 1 and 2				June 5, 1996
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   In an article published on June 4, 1996, you included the 
>   following claim:
>
>      "Canadian economists estimate that a typical, smallish 
>      'goy' (i,e, non-Jewish) Canadian family pays upwards of 
>      $300.00 Canadian extra yearly to pay the salaries of rabbis 
>      who ensure that many of the supermarket items they consume 
>      are 'kosher.'" (Anon, Eat less)
>
>   In response to immediate demands that you document that
>   claim, you responded the following day, June 5th, with this
>   remark:
>
>      "A legitimate request. I'll look up the specific references 
>      (names, dates of publication, etc.) as soon as I can get to 
>      a library." (Anon. Re: KOSHER)
>
>   (1) Given that General Foods has reported its cost was 6.5
>   millionths of a penny to obtain kosher certification for a
>   Birds-Eye product, and Heinz has reported that the cost "was
>   so small we can't even calculate it," do you still maintain
>   that this "report" from "Canadian economists" exists, and
>   that it substantiates your claim? (Anon. dayan18, Re: KOSHER TAX)
>
>   (2) Have you been to the library yet?
>
>Followups directed to alt.conspiracy and the "white power"
>discussion groups. Posted & emailed.
>


 [Documentary citations follow]
>   
>                              Work Cited 
>
>   Anon. (joebuck@ix.netcom.com). UseNet alt.conspiracy,
>      alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
>      alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,
>      alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism. Subject: "Eat less 
>      expensively: boycott 'kosher' products," June 4, 1996.
>      Message-ID: 4p2gtr$3ql@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com.
>      Archived in http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/
>      charles/joebuck.0696
>
>   Anon. (joebuck@ix.netcom.com).  UseNet alt.revisionism,
>     
alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
>      alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,
>      alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich. Subject: "Re:

>      KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada," June 5, 1995.
>      Message-ID: 4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com
>      Archived in http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/
>      charles/joebuck.0696
>
>   Anon. (dayan18@aol.com). UseNet alt.politics.nationalism.white,
>      Subject: "Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada," June 5, 1996.
>      Message-ID: 4p3sse$otk@newsbf02.news.aol.com, archived
>      as http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/
>      kosher-tax/kosher-costs
>
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource
>            [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>            [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction -
permanently!)



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 15:20:58 PDT 1996
Article: 21962 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 8 Jun 1996 03:42:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4pa68a$9bm@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> spok+@cs.cmu.edu (John Mark
Ockerbloom) writes: 
>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>>So far as I know, no company has hired and
>>>paid full-time Catholic priests to "bless" their products. Can you
>>>imagine the outrage of the largely-Jewish ACLU if such a thing
>>>happened? Another example of utter, undeniable Jewish hypocrisy...
>
>Unlike Jews and Muslims, Catholics have no dietary laws that
>require anyone to certify food products.
>
>However, Catholic bishops *can* give a certification to certain
>*books*, indicating that they contain no teachings that contradict the
>Catholic faith.  (This is known as a "nihil obstat" declaration.)
>There's no law that requires it (just like there's no law requiring
>kosher inspection), but some publishers of religious books decide to
                         ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^
>apply for it because having the certification gives them a broader
 ^^^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^ ^ ^^^^^^^
 >market for their books.  (Sound familiar?)  While I don't know for
  ^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^
>sure how they arrange this, I would expect (and find it quite proper)
>that the bishop's committee would be paid for their time and effort in
>certifying the book.
>
>Guess what?  The ACLU doesn't complain about this at all.
>So not only is there no evidence for your claim of "Jewish hypocrisy",
>there's evidence contradicting your imaginary hypothetical.
>Care to retract your accusation, or do you prefer to remain
>silent and let your bigotry speak for itself?
>
>John Mark Ockerbloom

  Thanks for making this easy: You wrote, ". . . some publishers of
religious books decide to apply for it because having the ["nihil
obstat"] certification gives them a broader audience."

*Point #1. Even YOU admit that the books are specifically RELIGIOUS in
nature, i.e. they deal with issues from a Catholic religiouis
perspective. Last I heard, the jar of tomato sauce or the can of tuna
on a supermarket shelf has no such "specifically RELIGIOUS" character.
 Therefore, your comparison is weak, at best. But nice try.

*Point #2. Far from seeking to "broaden" the potential readers of a
book, "certifying" it with a "nihil obstat" declaration would tend to
NARROW the potential readership! You MUST recognize this, right?
  Please, by all means, go back to that bookstore and look for some
books on basic economic theory!


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 19:28:20 PDT 1996
Article: 96361 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 8 Jun 1996 03:15:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 46
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In <4p9b9q$nn2@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com
(Steve Bartman) writes: 
>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>
>>	I would have thought that, unless one adds to Mosaic law as in
>>the cheeseburger, it is rather difficult to make most food
>>non-kosher, peanuts for example.  
>
>It's difficult to discuss this without getting into trade secrets,
>and, even though I no longer work for either company, I don't want to
>do that.
>
>I will say, that in the case of the peanuts, it's not the nuts
>themselves, but some of the coatings used on SOME of the dry roasted
>varieties. I believe it has to do with some by-products of gelatin,
>which is, as you're probably aware, commonly rendered from cattle and
>pig hooves.
>
>In the case of coffee, it's mostly an issue with the decaf brands. In
>the past certain compunds used to chemically lift the caffeine out of
>the beans was a problem. SANKA brand, the first (I believe) widespread
>decaf brand, didn't use this tech., and has a HUGE loyalty in the
>Jewish community, especially in older consumers. In the late 1980s,
>Maxwell House went to a new technology (reported in the press, not a
>secret, just hard to do engineering-wise) of using super-critical CO2
>(under pressures that change its physical characteristics) and pure
>water to lift the caffeine out without disturbing the otherwise very
>complex organic chemistry of the green coffee beans. Since then kosher
>certification has been much easier as the plants don't have the old
>chemicals or a need to segregate or special-clean production lines.
>
>I find this area really interesting, as you may have noticed. It's
>neat to me (undergrad history major) that these ancient laws and
>customs have managed to translate into a modern food system.

 . . . moreover, "ancient laws and customs" that not even 5% of
American Jews themselves adhere to, and which is a GREAT, reliable
source of easy money for thousands of rabbis yearly (hey, $5,000.00 for
a day's work ain't, if you'll pardon the expression, "peanuts"). 

>
>Steve




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 19:28:21 PDT 1996
Article: 96386 of alt.politics.radical-left
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 8 Jun 1996 02:59:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <6JUN199612452999@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>    Yo, Joebuck.  You are doing a lot of huffing and puffing but you
>    haven't answered any questions.
>
>    Question 1: Who makes you buy Planter's Peanuts if you don't want
to pay
>    the two onehundreths of a cent or so each pound is costing you in
>    rabbi's salary? 

  Yo, Middleman, I think the more RELEVANT question here is, 

                 "Who makes the company which manufactures
                  Planters Peanuts admittedly pay a salary of          
                  $5,000.00/day to someone (a rabbi) who adds
                  NOTHING of value to the company's products for
                  the well over 99% of the prospective consumers of the
                  product who don't follow kosher eating rules?"

  THAT, indeed, is the question which I've continuosly been asking, and
the result, largely, has been a lot of distracting name-calling, the
raising of ancilliary issues and the posing of less-relevant questions
-- in sum, avoiding dealing with the fundamental issue addressed in my
above question.
  Now, the former Kraft/Nabisco company manager who posted here
suggested, I believe, that the food preparation factories of those
companies were adequately sanitary year-round, not just before Passover
when word spreads through the food plant that, "THE RABBI'S COMING!" 
 (I wonder how the blue-collar factory workers would feel, BTW, about
those Rabbi Inspectors if they were aware that, because of the
"strenuous" (not) "religious duties" the rabbis have to perform -- such
as, our ex-company manager informs us, "climbing all over equipment,
checking invoices, etc." (tough work, to be sure!) -- if they were
aware that he was earning, for a mere FEW HOURS of such "tough work,"
what it undoubtedly takes THEM, the regular food workers who do the
REALLY hard work day-in and day-out, months and months to earn!)
  In a competetive market -- especially at this time of corporate
down-sizing, a depressed market in many areas of the food industry,
factories closing all over the nation, etc. -- the idea that a company
would WILLINGLY pay $500.00 to a non-employee to do something which
essentially adds NOTHING of value to their products in the view of most
consumers, is absurd.
  Now, our ex-nut man states that many goy consumers (i.e.non-Jewish
consumers) see the "U" for "kosher" on a product and it makes them,
however naively and superstitiously, feel as though that mark is a sign
of a higher-quality product -- EVEN WHEN THEY TYPICALLY CANNOT EVEN
DESCRIBE WHAT, EXACTLY, BEING KOSHER "CHANGES" A PRODUCT! (Answer: it
doesn't! All it does is add to the cost of the product.)
  In this era of truth-in-advertising (and I, for one, am delighted,
for example, with the placement of nutritional information on packaged
products) it would be AMAZING if food producers didn't take advantage
of an opportunity to
   a. cut production costs; and
   b. educate consumers by informing them that their products are
ALWAYS prepared under hygenic conditions, not ONLY when a Rabbi
Inspector "certifies" that they're ok . . . er, "kosher."
  If most, or even a very large percentage, of consumers in the US and
Canada followed strict kosher dietary laws, THEN it would make economic
sense for thousands of companies to pay thousands of rabbis the
$5,000.00-per-day salaries they already do.
  BTW, am I the only one who's confident that the heavily-Jewish ACLU
would be extremely vocal in its outrage if, for example, food producers
started imprinting, say, crosses instead of rabbits and "Easter eggs"
on their products during Christian religious holidays? I mean, look how
bent out of shape they get when someone says a prayer before a high
school football game, or how incensed they are when someone tries to
place a cross next to the menorah at city halls all over the country
every December, as if on cue!
  If non-Jews must pay the unconscionably-huge salaries of Inspector
Rabbis through higher food prices, then Jews ought to be willing to
subsidize the purchase of new machines to stamp crosses on
supermarket-sold foods.
  
> question is
 Since you are not required to buy this brand, why is
>    this an issue?  Everything else you say is moot until you can
address
>    this question.
>
>    Question 2: Where does your figure of $300 per year per family
come
>    from?  You demand sources below, but you have previously made this
>    assertion without citing any sources.  What is your source for
your
>    initial assertion?
>
>    ------------------------------
>
>    Interesting post included below as I think it allows readers to
render
>    their own judgments about each of the participants...
>
>In article <4p5g29$f08@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes...
>>In <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com
(Steve
>>Bartman) writes: 
>>>
>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>  The point is that food producers are PAYING Jewish rabbis pretty
>>good
>>>>>salaries -- rabbis who are the officials of a very small (-1% of
the
>>>>>population) but vocal (phenomenally over-represented in
journalism,
>>>>>politics and the media) specific RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group --
salaries
>>for
>>>>>doing something which, for most buyers of their products, adds NO
>>VALUE
>>>>>to what the company sells.       
>>>
>>>>Are they? And your proof for this is....? How much does a
>>>>company pay to have a product certified as kosher? What does
>>>>"kosher" mean? 
>>>
>>>First of all, let me say that the person who began this thread is an
>>>uneducated, bigoted ass.
>> 
>>  How kind of you. 
>>  
>>>That said, I have a bit of experience with this issue. I worked as a
>>>product manager for Kraft General Foods (Maxwell House Coffee), and
>>>Nabisco (Planters nuts); both divisions produce products certified
>>>kosher.
>>>
>>>The easiest way to dissolve this pinhead's
>> 
>>  I-KNOW-YOU-ARE-BUT-WHAT-AM-I?
>> 
>>> contentions is to say that
>>>the companies certifying kosher do not do so only to capture the
>>>Jewish consumer.
>> 
>>  Not true. They do it to avoid the hassle of becoming the brunt of
>>media attacks on them: attacks which could, if they occurred, have a
>>serious effect on sales. 
>>  No company would want to risk being demonized in the media because
it
>>refused to hire a rabbi (at $5,000.00/day, as you admit below) to
>>"certify" its food products as "kosher." Not only would it likely be
>>openly characterized as "a neo-nazi company" but it might become the
>>victim of the all-too-typical, politically-motivated media "hit
piece"
>>(e.g. "Without rabbis to "supervise," is Company X now selling
possibly
>>unwholesome and dangerous food products? We look into this startling
>>possibility in tonight's show.")
>> 
>>> It is a fact of long standing, which has been HEAVILY
>>>researched through statistically valid means,
>> 
>>  And your proof for this assertion is . . . ?
>> 
>>> that non-Jewish
>>>consumers, in the aggregate, consider a kosher mark proof of a
>>>'higher' quality product.
>> 
>>  Look, superstitions such as that "kosher" = "better" are
notoriously
>>hard to fight. 
>>  However, rather than continue -- indeed, REINFORCE -- people's 
>>superstitions about this, it would be more ethical for companies  to
>>educate the consumer as to how it's really quite unnecessary for a
>>rabbi to be paid $10,000.00 for two-days "work" to "certify" what the
>>largely non-Jewish consumers buy. Because who, ultimately, picks up
the
>>tab for the rabbi's $5,000.00/day salary? The largely non-Jewish
>>consumers, of course.
>> 
>>> Many do not know exactly what the mark
>>>means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it.
>> 
>>  Wow, as an employee -- a MANAGER, at that! -- of Kraft and Nabisco
>>you don't seem to have a very high opinion of the consumers of those
>>companies' products. They "do not know exactly what the mark means,
but
>>they know it is a 'good thing' . . . " 
>>  I wonder what the top officials of those companies would think of
an
>>employee who apparently looks down on the very people who buy their
>>merchandise?
>>  
>>> This
>>>is such a well-known phenomenon that it is not even debated in the
>>>world of food marketing.
>>>
>>>What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of,
>> 
>>  Did you say a "nut plant"? Figures. :-)
>> 
>>> one that
>>>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
>>>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
>>>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a
full
>>>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
>>>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
>>>organization's fee.
>>>
>>>One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to
>>>comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over
>>>$5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2
>>>billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer.
>> 
>>  Unbelievable, how you're desperately trying to connect two entirely
>>DIFFERENT things?
>>  The FDA-mandated nutritional labels were NOT "mandated" by any
>>particular RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- much less one that comprises
less
>>than 1% of the nation's consumers!
>>  The FDA is a G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T-A-L agency, certainly *NOT* a
>>smallish (-1% of the population) traditionally exclusivist
>>RACIAL/RELIGIOUS organization. As such, it's purpose is to serve ALL
>>the people -- not just the members of a specific racial/religious
>>congregation.
>>  Duh!
>> 
>>> There are at least three competing rabbinical groups that offer
>>>certification, and it gets quite complex (some are stricter than
>>>others, some consumers will only recognize one or the other), but it
>>>can be said there is a crude form of price competition among them.
>> 
>>  Yes, we can all certainly SEE that there's real "price competition
>>among them"! NOT!
>>  $5,000.00 for 8 hours of "work" spent "crawling over equipment,
>>looking at records and invoices," etc. "Tough work but somebody's got
>>to do it," I guess, huh?
>>  I can just hear the bidding rabbi now: "Mr. Food Company President,
>>believe me, I'm LOSING money on this deal! $5000.00/day for two days
of
>>work in your factory per year: that's my FINAL OFFER! A guy's gotta
>>make a living, you know! And I won't even charge you extra for making
>>me climb the ladder to reach that mixer!"  
>> 
>>>Given the price per pound for nuts, and extrapolating to an annual
>>>market basket, I find a $300/yr/family figure absurd.
>>>
>>>The pre-Passover inspection, which requires the plant be taken down
>>>and thouroughly cleaned, is also a 'good thing' for consumers. The
>>>plant managers told me they were not inconvenienced by it, but
rather
>>>scheduled training and preventative maintenance around the rabbi's
>>>visit. Just part of the annual cycle.
>> 
>>  This statement sheds light on possible dangers that we weren't even
>>aware of. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
>>  It seems that there may be a temptation for companies to neglect
>>"scheduled training and preventative maintenance" until the word gets
>>out that "THE RABBI'S COMING! HURRY, WE GOTTA CLEAN THIS PLACE UP!"
>>  What happens during the other 364 days of the year before and after
>>the day of the rabbi's visit?
>>  Proper sanitation, maintenance and training of personnel should not
>>be the direct results of an impending visit of a rabbi or anyone
else,
>>but YEAR-ROUND practices.
>>   
>>>Finally, although the Jewish community is concentated in the US in
>>>several key cities (like NYC), for some products their patronage is
>>>important. Maxwell House's strongest US market (out of 16 even
>>>geographic divisions) was the New York market. The Maxwell House
>>>Passover Haggadah (sp?) consumer promotion, where the company prints
>>>up the booklets used in the seder ceremony, and includes coupons, is
>>>the longest continuosly running consumer promotion in the United
>>>States, going back to the early 1930s--they've never missed a year,
>>>and are quite proud of the fact.
>> 
>>  That makes sense.
>>  But why must consumers in other parts of the country which have
>>negligible Jewish populations also have to contribute towards that
>>$5,000.00/day salary the rabbi receives?
>> 
>>>So, the kosher certification issue is, like most issues when you
>>>actually know what you're talking about, quite complex. Which
doesn't
>>>make it a conspiracy. At worst it's a naked business decision; at
best
>>>a generous, inclusionary gesture to a religious group with a proud
>>>history and a stake in the foundation of the United States.
>>>
>>   . . . OR it could also be something which, while it really
WOULDN'T
>>make sense in a truly free, "un-politicized" market in the vast
>>majority of cases, IS "a naked business decision" in the sense that
>>it's ALWAYS prudent business practice to avoid provoking a small but
>>vocal and politically-powerful minority which could damage your
company
>>through media "hit pieces" and through sheer government intervention.
>>THAT'S the "naked business decision" these companies make, and I
>>understand why they do so . . . though I wish their leaders were in a
>>position to be more frank about it.
>>  
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>Steve Bartman
>>>sbartman@ix.netcom.com
>>>
>> 
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 20:31:39 PDT 1996
Article: 41940 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 8 Jun 1996 03:15:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <4par7k$5ca@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <6JUN199612371462@cmi.arizona.edu> <4p82k5$bff@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4p856d$p5r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4p9b9q$nn2@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca8-25.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 07 10:15:00 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:41940 alt.politics.nationalism.white:21981 alt.conspiracy:56770 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:318166 alt.politics.radical-left:96361 alt.politics.perot:48396 alt.politics.usa.republican:212016

In <4p9b9q$nn2@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com
(Steve Bartman) writes: 
>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>
>>	I would have thought that, unless one adds to Mosaic law as in
>>the cheeseburger, it is rather difficult to make most food
>>non-kosher, peanuts for example.  
>
>It's difficult to discuss this without getting into trade secrets,
>and, even though I no longer work for either company, I don't want to
>do that.
>
>I will say, that in the case of the peanuts, it's not the nuts
>themselves, but some of the coatings used on SOME of the dry roasted
>varieties. I believe it has to do with some by-products of gelatin,
>which is, as you're probably aware, commonly rendered from cattle and
>pig hooves.
>
>In the case of coffee, it's mostly an issue with the decaf brands. In
>the past certain compunds used to chemically lift the caffeine out of
>the beans was a problem. SANKA brand, the first (I believe) widespread
>decaf brand, didn't use this tech., and has a HUGE loyalty in the
>Jewish community, especially in older consumers. In the late 1980s,
>Maxwell House went to a new technology (reported in the press, not a
>secret, just hard to do engineering-wise) of using super-critical CO2
>(under pressures that change its physical characteristics) and pure
>water to lift the caffeine out without disturbing the otherwise very
>complex organic chemistry of the green coffee beans. Since then kosher
>certification has been much easier as the plants don't have the old
>chemicals or a need to segregate or special-clean production lines.
>
>I find this area really interesting, as you may have noticed. It's
>neat to me (undergrad history major) that these ancient laws and
>customs have managed to translate into a modern food system.

 . . . moreover, "ancient laws and customs" that not even 5% of
American Jews themselves adhere to, and which is a GREAT, reliable
source of easy money for thousands of rabbis yearly (hey, $5,000.00 for
a day's work ain't, if you'll pardon the expression, "peanuts"). 

>
>Steve




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun  8 20:31:42 PDT 1996
Article: 41953 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 8 Jun 1996 02:59:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 309
Message-ID: <4paqa4$806@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p5g29$f08@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <6JUN199612452999@cmi.arizona.edu>
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In <6JUN199612452999@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>    Yo, Joebuck.  You are doing a lot of huffing and puffing but you
>    haven't answered any questions.
>
>    Question 1: Who makes you buy Planter's Peanuts if you don't want
to pay
>    the two onehundreths of a cent or so each pound is costing you in
>    rabbi's salary? 

  Yo, Middleman, I think the more RELEVANT question here is, 

                 "Who makes the company which manufactures
                  Planters Peanuts admittedly pay a salary of          
                  $5,000.00/day to someone (a rabbi) who adds
                  NOTHING of value to the company's products for
                  the well over 99% of the prospective consumers of the
                  product who don't follow kosher eating rules?"

  THAT, indeed, is the question which I've continuosly been asking, and
the result, largely, has been a lot of distracting name-calling, the
raising of ancilliary issues and the posing of less-relevant questions
-- in sum, avoiding dealing with the fundamental issue addressed in my
above question.
  Now, the former Kraft/Nabisco company manager who posted here
suggested, I believe, that the food preparation factories of those
companies were adequately sanitary year-round, not just before Passover
when word spreads through the food plant that, "THE RABBI'S COMING!" 
 (I wonder how the blue-collar factory workers would feel, BTW, about
those Rabbi Inspectors if they were aware that, because of the
"strenuous" (not) "religious duties" the rabbis have to perform -- such
as, our ex-company manager informs us, "climbing all over equipment,
checking invoices, etc." (tough work, to be sure!) -- if they were
aware that he was earning, for a mere FEW HOURS of such "tough work,"
what it undoubtedly takes THEM, the regular food workers who do the
REALLY hard work day-in and day-out, months and months to earn!)
  In a competetive market -- especially at this time of corporate
down-sizing, a depressed market in many areas of the food industry,
factories closing all over the nation, etc. -- the idea that a company
would WILLINGLY pay $500.00 to a non-employee to do something which
essentially adds NOTHING of value to their products in the view of most
consumers, is absurd.
  Now, our ex-nut man states that many goy consumers (i.e.non-Jewish
consumers) see the "U" for "kosher" on a product and it makes them,
however naively and superstitiously, feel as though that mark is a sign
of a higher-quality product -- EVEN WHEN THEY TYPICALLY CANNOT EVEN
DESCRIBE WHAT, EXACTLY, BEING KOSHER "CHANGES" A PRODUCT! (Answer: it
doesn't! All it does is add to the cost of the product.)
  In this era of truth-in-advertising (and I, for one, am delighted,
for example, with the placement of nutritional information on packaged
products) it would be AMAZING if food producers didn't take advantage
of an opportunity to
   a. cut production costs; and
   b. educate consumers by informing them that their products are
ALWAYS prepared under hygenic conditions, not ONLY when a Rabbi
Inspector "certifies" that they're ok . . . er, "kosher."
  If most, or even a very large percentage, of consumers in the US and
Canada followed strict kosher dietary laws, THEN it would make economic
sense for thousands of companies to pay thousands of rabbis the
$5,000.00-per-day salaries they already do.
  BTW, am I the only one who's confident that the heavily-Jewish ACLU
would be extremely vocal in its outrage if, for example, food producers
started imprinting, say, crosses instead of rabbits and "Easter eggs"
on their products during Christian religious holidays? I mean, look how
bent out of shape they get when someone says a prayer before a high
school football game, or how incensed they are when someone tries to
place a cross next to the menorah at city halls all over the country
every December, as if on cue!
  If non-Jews must pay the unconscionably-huge salaries of Inspector
Rabbis through higher food prices, then Jews ought to be willing to
subsidize the purchase of new machines to stamp crosses on
supermarket-sold foods.
  
> question is
 Since you are not required to buy this brand, why is
>    this an issue?  Everything else you say is moot until you can
address
>    this question.
>
>    Question 2: Where does your figure of $300 per year per family
come
>    from?  You demand sources below, but you have previously made this
>    assertion without citing any sources.  What is your source for
your
>    initial assertion?
>
>    ------------------------------
>
>    Interesting post included below as I think it allows readers to
render
>    their own judgments about each of the participants...
>
>In article <4p5g29$f08@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes...
>>In <4p55us$cmo@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com
(Steve
>>Bartman) writes: 
>>>
>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>  The point is that food producers are PAYING Jewish rabbis pretty
>>good
>>>>>salaries -- rabbis who are the officials of a very small (-1% of
the
>>>>>population) but vocal (phenomenally over-represented in
journalism,
>>>>>politics and the media) specific RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group --
salaries
>>for
>>>>>doing something which, for most buyers of their products, adds NO
>>VALUE
>>>>>to what the company sells.       
>>>
>>>>Are they? And your proof for this is....? How much does a
>>>>company pay to have a product certified as kosher? What does
>>>>"kosher" mean? 
>>>
>>>First of all, let me say that the person who began this thread is an
>>>uneducated, bigoted ass.
>> 
>>  How kind of you. 
>>  
>>>That said, I have a bit of experience with this issue. I worked as a
>>>product manager for Kraft General Foods (Maxwell House Coffee), and
>>>Nabisco (Planters nuts); both divisions produce products certified
>>>kosher.
>>>
>>>The easiest way to dissolve this pinhead's
>> 
>>  I-KNOW-YOU-ARE-BUT-WHAT-AM-I?
>> 
>>> contentions is to say that
>>>the companies certifying kosher do not do so only to capture the
>>>Jewish consumer.
>> 
>>  Not true. They do it to avoid the hassle of becoming the brunt of
>>media attacks on them: attacks which could, if they occurred, have a
>>serious effect on sales. 
>>  No company would want to risk being demonized in the media because
it
>>refused to hire a rabbi (at $5,000.00/day, as you admit below) to
>>"certify" its food products as "kosher." Not only would it likely be
>>openly characterized as "a neo-nazi company" but it might become the
>>victim of the all-too-typical, politically-motivated media "hit
piece"
>>(e.g. "Without rabbis to "supervise," is Company X now selling
possibly
>>unwholesome and dangerous food products? We look into this startling
>>possibility in tonight's show.")
>> 
>>> It is a fact of long standing, which has been HEAVILY
>>>researched through statistically valid means,
>> 
>>  And your proof for this assertion is . . . ?
>> 
>>> that non-Jewish
>>>consumers, in the aggregate, consider a kosher mark proof of a
>>>'higher' quality product.
>> 
>>  Look, superstitions such as that "kosher" = "better" are
notoriously
>>hard to fight. 
>>  However, rather than continue -- indeed, REINFORCE -- people's 
>>superstitions about this, it would be more ethical for companies  to
>>educate the consumer as to how it's really quite unnecessary for a
>>rabbi to be paid $10,000.00 for two-days "work" to "certify" what the
>>largely non-Jewish consumers buy. Because who, ultimately, picks up
the
>>tab for the rabbi's $5,000.00/day salary? The largely non-Jewish
>>consumers, of course.
>> 
>>> Many do not know exactly what the mark
>>>means, but they know it is 'a good thing' and they look for it.
>> 
>>  Wow, as an employee -- a MANAGER, at that! -- of Kraft and Nabisco
>>you don't seem to have a very high opinion of the consumers of those
>>companies' products. They "do not know exactly what the mark means,
but
>>they know it is a 'good thing' . . . " 
>>  I wonder what the top officials of those companies would think of
an
>>employee who apparently looks down on the very people who buy their
>>merchandise?
>>  
>>> This
>>>is such a well-known phenomenon that it is not even debated in the
>>>world of food marketing.
>>>
>>>What does certification cost? At one nut plant I know of,
>> 
>>  Did you say a "nut plant"? Figures. :-)
>> 
>>> one that
>>>processes over 50 million pounds of raw nuts per year, the rabbi's
>>>bill for an annual inspection, and a second, pre-Passover check, was
>>>around $10,000 plus airfare and hotel. The rabbi spent at least a
full
>>>day at the plant, crawling over the equipment, looking at records,
>>>invoices, etc., and performing his religious duties for his
>>>organization's fee.
>>>
>>>One could contrast this number with the amount spent by Planters to
>>>comply with the recent FDA-mandated nutritional label changes-- over
>>>$5 million. Throughout the US food industry the figure was over $2
>>>billion. These costs were also passed through to the consumer.
>> 
>>  Unbelievable, how you're desperately trying to connect two entirely
>>DIFFERENT things?
>>  The FDA-mandated nutritional labels were NOT "mandated" by any
>>particular RACIAL/RELIGIOUS group -- much less one that comprises
less
>>than 1% of the nation's consumers!
>>  The FDA is a G-O-V-E-R-N-M-E-N-T-A-L agency, certainly *NOT* a
>>smallish (-1% of the population) traditionally exclusivist
>>RACIAL/RELIGIOUS organization. As such, it's purpose is to serve ALL
>>the people -- not just the members of a specific racial/religious
>>congregation.
>>  Duh!
>> 
>>> There are at least three competing rabbinical groups that offer
>>>certification, and it gets quite complex (some are stricter than
>>>others, some consumers will only recognize one or the other), but it
>>>can be said there is a crude form of price competition among them.
>> 
>>  Yes, we can all certainly SEE that there's real "price competition
>>among them"! NOT!
>>  $5,000.00 for 8 hours of "work" spent "crawling over equipment,
>>looking at records and invoices," etc. "Tough work but somebody's got
>>to do it," I guess, huh?
>>  I can just hear the bidding rabbi now: "Mr. Food Company President,
>>believe me, I'm LOSING money on this deal! $5000.00/day for two days
of
>>work in your factory per year: that's my FINAL OFFER! A guy's gotta
>>make a living, you know! And I won't even charge you extra for making
>>me climb the ladder to reach that mixer!"  
>> 
>>>Given the price per pound for nuts, and extrapolating to an annual
>>>market basket, I find a $300/yr/family figure absurd.
>>>
>>>The pre-Passover inspection, which requires the plant be taken down
>>>and thouroughly cleaned, is also a 'good thing' for consumers. The
>>>plant managers told me they were not inconvenienced by it, but
rather
>>>scheduled training and preventative maintenance around the rabbi's
>>>visit. Just part of the annual cycle.
>> 
>>  This statement sheds light on possible dangers that we weren't even
>>aware of. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
>>  It seems that there may be a temptation for companies to neglect
>>"scheduled training and preventative maintenance" until the word gets
>>out that "THE RABBI'S COMING! HURRY, WE GOTTA CLEAN THIS PLACE UP!"
>>  What happens during the other 364 days of the year before and after
>>the day of the rabbi's visit?
>>  Proper sanitation, maintenance and training of personnel should not
>>be the direct results of an impending visit of a rabbi or anyone
else,
>>but YEAR-ROUND practices.
>>   
>>>Finally, although the Jewish community is concentated in the US in
>>>several key cities (like NYC), for some products their patronage is
>>>important. Maxwell House's strongest US market (out of 16 even
>>>geographic divisions) was the New York market. The Maxwell House
>>>Passover Haggadah (sp?) consumer promotion, where the company prints
>>>up the booklets used in the seder ceremony, and includes coupons, is
>>>the longest continuosly running consumer promotion in the United
>>>States, going back to the early 1930s--they've never missed a year,
>>>and are quite proud of the fact.
>> 
>>  That makes sense.
>>  But why must consumers in other parts of the country which have
>>negligible Jewish populations also have to contribute towards that
>>$5,000.00/day salary the rabbi receives?
>> 
>>>So, the kosher certification issue is, like most issues when you
>>>actually know what you're talking about, quite complex. Which
doesn't
>>>make it a conspiracy. At worst it's a naked business decision; at
best
>>>a generous, inclusionary gesture to a religious group with a proud
>>>history and a stake in the foundation of the United States.
>>>
>>   . . . OR it could also be something which, while it really
WOULDN'T
>>make sense in a truly free, "un-politicized" market in the vast
>>majority of cases, IS "a naked business decision" in the sense that
>>it's ALWAYS prudent business practice to avoid provoking a small but
>>vocal and politically-powerful minority which could damage your
company
>>through media "hit pieces" and through sheer government intervention.
>>THAT'S the "naked business decision" these companies make, and I
>>understand why they do so . . . though I wish their leaders were in a
>>position to be more frank about it.
>>  
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>Steve Bartman
>>>sbartman@ix.netcom.com
>>>
>> 
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:22:33 PDT 1996
Article: 42108 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 8 Jun 1996 03:07:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 33
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References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com>
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In <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> kwills19@ecity.net (Kent B. Wills  )
writes: 
>
>At one time, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>>In article <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:     
>
>>Are they? And your proof for this is....? How much does a
>>company pay to have a product certified as kosher? What does
>>"kosher" mean? 
>
>  Kosher means, more or less, blessed by a Rabbi.  In order for meat
>to be "kosher" certain "rules" must be follow.  One example is the way
>the animals (usualy cattle) are killed and the meat cut.
>  Of course, there is Kosher Kitchen, which is a life stlye followed
>by very devote Jews.  In this two seperate plate service are used and
>meat products can only be placed on one of them, NEVER the other.
>there is more to it than just that, but it would take up a lot of band
>with to explain it all. 

  What's even more noteworthy is that only a TINY PERCENTAGE of the
Jews in the United States and Canada -- who themselves are a TINY
PERCENTAGE of the general population -- actually FOLLOW kosher dietary
law. I've known many Jews (as friends who I still hold dearly) and NOT
ONE has been a follower of Jewish dietary laws. Even the Jews don't eat
kosher, but that doesn't mean we can stop paying those Rabbi Inspectors
$5,000.00 a day to "certify" foods as "kosher." 
  Thus, over 99% of the consumers are FORCED to pay for the HIGHLY
RARE, religous food requirements of a TINY PERCENTAGE of a TINY
PERCENTAGE!




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:22:35 PDT 1996
Article: 42114 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 9 Jun 1996 03:35:36 GMT
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In <8JUN199616561449@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>In article <4pcup6$au0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes...
>>In article <4pasr1$rkg@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>> 
>>>  Please, by all means, go back to that bookstore and look for some
>>>books on basic economic theory!
>> 
>>While he's off to the bookstore, you may wish to head for the
>>library - or admit what we all know: Your statement about
>>"Canadian economists" and "$300 a year" are a complete crock.
>
>    Not that we need any additional evidence of Joebuck's stupidity,
but I
>    can formulate a better justification of the $300 figure than any
of
>    them can.  
>
>    Here is my attempt at a feeble justification:
>
>    
>
>         If you compare the cost of meat in a kosher butchershop with
the
>         cost of unkosher meat in a supermarket and then extrapolate
out to
>         the amount of meat a family of four might eat in an entire
year,
>         the extra cost to the kosher family could be in the order of
>         magnitude of $300.
>

  You said it yourself, above:
             " . . . the extra cost to the kosher family could be
               in the order of maganitude of $300."
  That's PRECISELY the point.
  Since the *extremely rare [*see below] families which follow kosher
dietary laws obvously DO NOT pay and extra $300 yearly for the
mass-market supermarket foods they buy, somebody -- quite clearly --
must be. And that "somebody" is -- guess who? -- the ordinary,
non-kosher-demanding consumer (collectively-speaking).
  [*"extremely rare" in the sense that the Jews comprise less than 1%
of the US/Canadian populations, and only a small minoruty of the Jews
in these countries -- who are typically very secular, non-observant
Jews -- themselves follow kosher dietary laws. Example: Jews -- are
well-known for being particularly fond of Chinese food; one of the most
universally-found components of Chinese food is pork -- an obviously
non-kosher food. And please don't tell me Jews regularly order non-pork
dishes in Chinese restaurants: I've dined out with too many to know
otherwise.]

>    This, of course, does not address the real issues of the
discussion and
>    in no way is a "kosher tax," but it is $300 in extra costs for
>    consuming kosher food.  And our white power rangers

  It's so unfortunate that you feel you must revert to this silly
name-calling. It reflects more badly on you than on me, I believe.
  Who ever said anything in this thread about being a "white power
ranger"? Certainly not me, as I reject all "power" appeals based on
race and, while I have dificulties with the attitudes and actions of
Jews based on their "Chosen People" claim, I ALSO reject the "white
power" mentality. We're all just PEOPLE, of equal value in the Eyes of
God, okay? 
  Enough of this sleazy slandering of philosophical adversaries as
"neo-nazis," "white power rangers," etc! 

 never would have
>    thought of this on their own... because they really don't
understand
>    either basic economic theory or the issue at hand.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:22:36 PDT 1996
Article: 42121 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 9 Jun 1996 04:50:25 GMT
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>>  Now, the former Kraft/Nabisco company manager who posted here
>>suggested, I believe, that the food preparation factories of those
>>companies were adequately sanitary year-round, not just before
Passover
>>when word spreads through the food plant that, "THE RABBI'S COMING!" 
>
>    Yes he did.  What's your point?
>
>> (I wonder how the blue-collar factory workers would feel, BTW, about
>>those Rabbi Inspectors if they were aware that, because of the
>>"strenuous" (not) "religious duties" the rabbis have to perform --
such
>>as, our ex-company manager informs us, "climbing all over equipment,
>>checking invoices, etc." (tough work, to be sure!) -- if they were
>>aware that he was earning, for a mere FEW HOURS of such "tough work,"
>>what it undoubtedly takes THEM, the regular food workers who do the
>>REALLY hard work day-in and day-out, months and months to earn!)
>
>    As Steve said, the fee was for overall kosher oversite, it was not
>for simply climbing over the machines.  The latter was your
>misunderstanding of how these things work. 

  "Overall kosher oversite"? In TWO DAYS OF "WORK" . . . @ a salary of
$5.000.00 per day . . . go figure.

>    For example, in a completely unrelated field, my company charges
>$2,500 a day for my consulting time.  You might say that I am getting
>paid about $300 a hour (I'm actually paid a salary much less than
>that), but in reality when you calculate in all of the up front
>preparation time, and the follow-up consultation time that is not
>charged directly, the $2,500 a day works out to somethign reasonable. 
>I probably put in about 3 days work for every day on-site with a
>client.

  And WHO, exactly, pays for your $2,500. a day salary? The person or
company who hired you, that's who. Certainly NOT millions of American
consumers who had no desire to hire you in the first place. 

>    I am confident that the $5,000 a day fee that Steve mentioned
>amounts to somthing similar - the rabbi's do a lot of work off-site as
>well as the work they do on-site for that fee. 

  Yeah, I'm sure these rabbis really perform "a lot of work off-site"
for that fee! Such as topping-off their cars' tanks with the gas
allowances Bartman admitted the company also pays them (in addition to
the $10,000.00 per day they already receive for their two days "work"),
paying their waiters at the restaurants with those extra travel expense
allowances Bartman admitted the companies pays them . . . Tough job,
"climbing all over equipment, checking invoices" and such -- I can't
understand why EVERYONE, especially the food companies' 365-day-a-year
overwhelmingly non-Jewish, blue-collar employees, aren't paid $5000.000
a day to do such work!

> Also, just as I don't keep the $2,500 my company is paid, I am sure
>that an individual rabbi does not keep the $5,000 his organization is
paid.  Much of it goes towards overhead. 

  That's funny. :-)  

>(Why do I not expect you to understand this?)

  I know, I'm just an "uppity" goy. Why should I be expected to
understand this? :-)

>>  In a competetive market -- especially at this time of corporate
>>down-sizing, a depressed market in many areas of the food industry,
>>factories closing all over the nation, etc. -- the idea that a
>company would WILLINGLY pay $500.00 to a non-employee to do something
>which essentially adds NOTHING of value to their products in the view
>of most consumers, is absurd.

>    Ah, but it does add percieved value to their customers. 
>Customers, as Steve has told us, are more willing to buy the product
>if they see the kosher symbol on the label.  He told us that this goes
>both for Jewish and non-Jewish purchasers.

  Look, cigarettes have "perceived value" for millions of smokers --
otherwise they wouldn't buy them. But the government REQUIRES cigarette
packages to contain a *WARNING* from none other than the nation's
Surgeon General, exploding the cigarettes-are-good-for-you myth.
  Perhaps the government should also REQUIRE "kosher-certified"
products to bear a similar *WARNING*:

             "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE SPENT TOO MUCH FOR THIS PRODUCT.
              THE FACT THAT THIS PRODUCT BEARS A MARK INDICATING       
              THAT IT IS 'KOSHER-CERTIFIED' DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS IN
              ANY WAY SUPERIOR TO NON-KOSHER-CERTIFIED PRODUCTS. THE   
              REQUIREMENTS OF KOSHER DIETARY LAWS AFFECT ONLY A SMALL  
              PERCENTAGE (-.5%) OF THE GENERAL POPULATION. IF UNSURE AS
              TO WHETHER YOU MUST FOLLOW A KOSHER DIET, PLEASE CONTACT 
              YOUR NEAREST RELIGIOUS LEADER."
  
>>  Now, our ex-nut man [Bartman] states that many goy consumers
>>(i.e.non-Jewish
>>consumers) see the "U" for "kosher" on a product and it makes them,
>>however naively and superstitiously, feel as though that mark is a
>>sign of a higher-quality product -- EVEN WHEN THEY TYPICALLY CANNOT
>>EVEN DESCRIBE HOW, EXACTLY, BEING KOSHER "CHANGES" A PRODUCT!
>>(Answer: it doesn't! All it does is add to the cost of the product.)

[deletia]

>>  BTW, am I the only one who's confident that the heavily-Jewish ACLU
>>would be extremely vocal in its outrage if, for example, food
>>producers started imprinting, say, crosses instead of rabbits and
>>"Easter eggs" on their products during Christian religious holidays?
>>I mean, look how bent out of shape they get when someone says a
>>prayer before a high school football game, or how incensed they are
>>when someone tries to place a cross next to the menorah at city halls
>>all over the country every December, as if on cue!

>    This is stupid.  Grocery stores are filled with Christmas and
>Easter good in season.  Neither the ACLU nor the Jewish community
>complains about private businesses marketing Christain goods.  You
>have no examples of such complaints as none exist, do you?
>If fact, you don't really have any understanding about the difference
>between public and private religious symbolism, do you?

  Look, most people, I'm confident -- unlike you, apparently -- realize
that depictions of, say, Santa Claus, Christmas trees, or Easter eggs
on product packaging during holidays are NOT religious, but are
entirely secular in nature.
  Which is clearly unlike the "U" symbol used to indicate that products
have received a SPECIAL RELIGIOUS "CERTIFICATION" BY AN ORDAINED
OFFICIAL (i.e. A RABBI) OF A PARTICULAR RELIGION.

>>  If non-Jews must pay the unconscionably-huge salaries of Inspector
>>Rabbis through higher food prices, then Jews ought to be willing to
>>subsidize the purchase of new machines to stamp crosses on
>>supermarket-sold foods.

[deletia]


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 10:22:36 PDT 1996
Article: 42153 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF lies
Date: 9 Jun 1996 07:53:25 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4pdhfa$egm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>In article <4par7k$5ca@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>
>> . . . moreover, "ancient laws and customs" that not even 5% of
>>American Jews themselves adhere to, and which is a GREAT, reliable
>>source of easy money for thousands of rabbis yearly (hey, $5,000.00
for
>>a day's work ain't, if you'll pardon the expression, "peanuts"). 
>
>Document your assertion that rabbis are paid $5,000 a day, and
>document the total annual cost to companys like Planters.

  You know, for someone who's supposedly been a participant in this
thread, you sure don't seem to be paying attention. Else you wouldn't
demand, "Document your assertion that rabbis are paid $5,000 a day ..."
  Steve Bartman -- that's S-T-E-V-E B-A-R-T-M-A-N -- who identifies
himself (and appears to be, I think virtually everyone WHO'S BEEN
PAYING ATTENTION would agree) as a former manager with both Nabisco and
Kraft Foods (and who disagrees with my position, BTW) *himself* gave
$10,000.00 as the amount a rabbis gets for two days of strenuous (not!)
work "certifying" that those companies' food products are kosher.
  So, if you want "documentation" for the $5,000 a day salaries rabbis
receive, there you are -- straight from the horse's mouth. BTW, if
Bartman is the horse's mouth, and you're the horse's mid-section, what
does that make Alputz? 
  
>Relate these costs to economy of scale benefits, and explain
>how Planter's data are wrong and yours are correct.

  When is this due? Does it have to be typed?
  But seriously, I will do exactly as you request above . . . for
$5,000 a day, that is. ;-)

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/charles/charles-10

>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource
>    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction -
permanently!)......unlearn



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 21:21:19 PDT 1996
Article: 42302 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 9 Jun 1996 08:38:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 58
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[deletia]
>> Joe Buck wrote
>>  You said it yourself, above:
>>             " . . . the extra cost to the kosher family could be
>>               in the order of maganitude of $300."
>>  That's PRECISELY the point.

>    Yes, that's precisely the point.  A kosher family may choose to
>pay upwards of $300 to be kosher.  No one else is effected by it.
>    Note that this $300 expenditure is completely voluntary and as one
>has to go out of their way to find a kosher butchershop in order to
>pay it, it is unlikely any non-kosher family will find themselves
>involved.

  Unbelievable. Seriously, are you being intellectually dishonest or is
it that you genuinely don't "get it"?
  The *point* is that Jews have the rather unique advantage of NOT
NEEDING TO personally pay the added expenses (i.e. higher food prices)
for kosher products they normally would be forced to (in an
unpoliticized market) out of their own pockets in order to eat kosher
BECAUSE LITERALLY MILLIONS OF *NON*-KOSHER FAMILIES ARE SUBSIDIZING
THEIR RABBIS TO SPEND A FEW HOURS IN FOOD PREPARATION FACTORIES -- AT
ADMITTED SALARIES OF $5,000 A DAY PER RABBI! -- TO ENSURE THAT EVERYONE
(WHETHER JEWISH OR NOT) PAYS THESE INCREASED COSTS.
  Really, I don't know how I could be more explicit than this, though
I'm sure you'll think of some other sophistry to reply with as a
diversion from the real issue.
  And again, IF Jews were a numerically large percentage of the
population, it MIGHT make sense for companies to pay rabbis exhorbitant
salaries to have all their products certified as kosher.
  However, this is NOT the case. Jews represent less than 1% of the
populations of the US and Canada, and only a minority of that 1% even
follows kosher dietary laws! Yet *everyone* -- most notably, the over
99% of non-Jewish consumers -- must pay higher prices to appease this
small percentage of a small percentage which demands "kosher" food in
every supermarket.
  Wouldn't it make more sense for this "small percentage of a small
percentage" which strictly follows kosher dietary laws to look for
products which meet its highly-untypical, explicitly-RELIGIOUS
requirements in, say, the "ethnic foods" aisle of the market? Such
explicitly "ethnic" foods (for example, rice grown in India or sesame
"halvah" candy produced in the Middle East) are usually found in
special locations in the market, and are more expensive than the
domestic versions. But their purchasers are willing to pay the added
expenses involved in buying imported goods because these products
satisfy an ethnic or cultural need.
  Likewise, shouldn't the Jews be willing to THEMSELVES pay the
salaries of those $5,000 a day rabbis who have set up such a lucrative
racket for themselves? 
  Believe me, if the Jews THEMSELVES had to subsidize these rabbis, I
think you'd immediately see droves of "former" kosher households,
accompanied by a new-found skepticism in the heavily-Jewish-controlled
media regarding the claims in support of kosher dietary law! :-)
  (BTW, I know, "the corporate media really AREN'T heavily-influenced,
if not largely run, by Jews, and only an anti-semite would say such a
thing blah, blah, blah . . . ")

[deletia]


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 21:21:22 PDT 1996
Article: 42316 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 01:19:55 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 141
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In

"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>
>
>On 9 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>
>> In <8JUN199616561449@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
>> (Danny) writes:
>> >
>> >In article <4pcup6$au0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
>> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes...
>> >>In article <4pasr1$rkg@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>> >>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>  Please, by all means, go back to that bookstore and look for
some
>> >>>books on basic economic theory!
>> >>
>> >>While he's off to the bookstore, you may wish to head for the
>> >>library - or admit what we all know: Your statement about
>> >>"Canadian economists" and "$300 a year" are a complete crock.
>> >
>> >    Not that we need any additional evidence of Joebuck's
stupidity,
>> but I
>> >    can formulate a better justification of the $300 figure than
any
>> of
>> >    them can.
>> >
>> >    Here is my attempt at a feeble justification:
>> >
>> >    
>> >
>> >         If you compare the cost of meat in a kosher butchershop
with
>> the
>> >         cost of unkosher meat in a supermarket and then
extrapolate
>> out to
>> >         the amount of meat a family of four might eat in an entire
>> year,
>> >         the extra cost to the kosher family could be in the order
of
>> >         magnitude of $300.
>> >
>>
>>   You said it yourself, above:
>>              " . . . the extra cost to the kosher family could be
>>                in the order of maganitude of $300."
>>   That's PRECISELY the point.
>>   Since the *extremely rare [*see below] families which follow
kosher
>> dietary laws obvously DO NOT pay and extra $300 yearly for the
>> mass-market supermarket foods they buy, somebody -- quite clearly --
>> must be. And that "somebody" is -- guess who? -- the ordinary,
>> non-kosher-demanding consumer (collectively-speaking).
>>   [*"extremely rare" in the sense that the Jews comprise less than
1%
>> of the US/Canadian populations, and only a small minoruty of the
Jews
>> in these countries -- who are typically very secular, non-observant
>> Jews -- themselves follow kosher dietary laws. Example: Jews -- are
>> well-known for being particularly fond of Chinese food; one of the
most
>> universally-found components of Chinese food is pork -- an obviously
>> non-kosher food. And please don't tell me Jews regularly order
non-pork
>> dishes in Chinese restaurants: I've dined out with too many to know
>> otherwise.]
>>
>> >    This, of course, does not address the real issues of the
>> discussion and
>> >    in no way is a "kosher tax," but it is $300 in extra costs for
>> >    consuming kosher food.  And our white power rangers
>>
>>   It's so unfortunate that you feel you must revert to this silly
>> name-calling. It reflects more badly on you than on me, I believe.
>>   Who ever said anything in this thread about being a "white power
>> ranger"? Certainly not me, as I reject all "power" appeals based on
>> race and, while I have dificulties with the attitudes and actions of
>> Jews based on their "Chosen People" claim, I ALSO reject the "white
>> power" mentality. We're all just PEOPLE, of equal value in the Eyes
of
>> God, okay?
>>   Enough of this sleazy slandering of philosophical adversaries as
>> "neo-nazis," "white power rangers," etc!
>
>Charles, or whomever you are:  You are a lying sack of compost!!

  I know you are but what am I?

>This $300 figure has been proven, exhaustively, to be a complete
>fabrication in posts by someone who works in the food industry(in this
>thread and/or a related one, on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh and elsewhere.
>He showed that at best, the added cost of "K" to the average consumer
might be
>pennies a year, if they bought any kosher food at all.You are simply
>attempting to push propaganda that leaves the epithets out, in order
to try to
>convince the simply ignorant, as opposed to white supremacists,
rascists,
>"white power ramgers", etc. of your lies.  Your objective is the
same----
>to somehow create the impression that Jews are unfairly sucking up
money from
>non-Jews---- the same lie that has been promulgated for a thousand
years.
>You are a racist propagandizing creep

  I know you are but what am I?

--- and those are the nicest words I
>can use.  Go back in the closet, put on your brownshirt, and Seig
Heil! to
>the wall---- you are making lots of people nauseous.

  I know you're doing so but what am I doing?

>
>		Dave Braun
>
>
>>
>>  never would have
>> >    thought of this on their own... because they really don't
>> understand
>> >    either basic economic theory or the issue at hand.
>> >
>> >                         daniel david mittleman
>>
>======================================================================
>> ====
>> >                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"
>>
>>
>>
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 21:21:23 PDT 1996
Article: 42321 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!news.tufts.edu!blanket.mitre.org!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!oleane!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Anti-semitic lies that idiots keep harping on
Date: 10 Jun 1996 01:13:38 GMT
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In <4pep3q$f6g@news1.io.org> alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) writes: 
>
>In <4pdl6h$eo1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com
(Charles) writes:
>>>
>>>    As Steve said, the fee was for overall kosher oversite, it was
not
>>>for simply climbing over the machines.  The latter was your
>>>misunderstanding of how these things work. 
>>
>>  "Overall kosher oversite"? In TWO DAYS OF "WORK" . . . @ a salary
of
>>$5.000.00 per day . . . go figure.
>
>So? A surgeon works on you for an hour and collects 50 grand. Is his
"salary"
>50 grand an hour?
>
>That rabbi has to spend weeks before and after learning the business,
the 
>specific procedures and processes and otherwise becoming an expert in
that 
>industry.
>>
>>  And WHO, exactly, pays for your $2,500. a day salary? The person or
>>company who hired you, that's who. Certainly NOT millions of American
>>consumers who had no desire to hire you in the first place. 
>>
>
>Please scan in a copy of the last salary cheque that you sent to that 
>Rabbi - or call yourself an idiot.
>
I know you are but what am I?

>The company that paid that cheque did precisely the same thing - 
>sent the money to the council involved.
>
>>
>>  Yeah, I'm sure these rabbis really perform "a lot of work off-site"
>>for that fee! Such as topping-off their cars' tanks with the gas
>>allowances Bartman admitted the company also pays them (in addition
to
>>the $10,000.00 per day they already receive for their two days
"work"),
>
>More BS. Bartman's statement was that the COST TO THE COMPANY was 
>$10,000. 
>
>You ever think of taking a remedial reading course?
>
I know you should but why should I?

>>  Perhaps the government should also REQUIRE "kosher-certified"
>>products to bear a similar *WARNING*:
>>
>>             "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE SPENT TOO MUCH FOR THIS PRODUCT.
>>              THE FACT THAT THIS PRODUCT BEARS A MARK INDICATING     
 
>>              THAT IT IS 'KOSHER-CERTIFIED' DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS
IN
>
>>              ANY WAY SUPERIOR TO NON-KOSHER-CERTIFIED PRODUCTS. THE 
 
>>              REQUIREMENTS OF KOSHER DIETARY LAWS AFFECT ONLY A SMALL
 
>>              PERCENTAGE (-.5%) OF THE GENERAL POPULATION. IF UNSURE
AS
>>              TO WHETHER YOU MUST FOLLOW A KOSHER DIET, PLEASE
CONTACT 
>>              YOUR NEAREST RELIGIOUS LEADER."
>
>More idiocy. That product, unless explicitly intended for the
religious market, will 
>cost the consumer *EXACTLY THE SAME AMOUNT* as any other product.
>
>Please provide a list of not less than 100 randomly selected
non-specialized 
>products with MSRP and wholesale prices, where the kosher item's price
to the 
>retailer or consumer exceeded the price of its non-kosher equivalent.
>
>Or call yourself a heap of rotting dung.
>
I know you are but what am I?

>>>>however naively and superstitiously, feel as though that mark is a
>>>>sign of a higher-quality product -- EVEN WHEN THEY TYPICALLY CANNOT
>>>>EVEN DESCRIBE HOW, EXACTLY, BEING KOSHER "CHANGES" A PRODUCT!
>
>So? "CSA Approved"  or "UL Approved" doesn't add anything to the value
of 
>a properly-made product. It isn't supposed to. It simply signifies
that the product 
>meets a specific standard of quality.
>
>>>>(Answer: it doesn't! All it does is add to the cost of the
product.)
>
>Please provide proof that the cost exceeds the added marketing
benefit.
>
>>
>>>>  BTW, am I the only one who's confident that the heavily-Jewish
ACLU
>>>>would be extremely vocal in its outrage if, for example, food
>>>>producers started imprinting, say, crosses instead of rabbits and
>>>>"Easter eggs" on their products during Christian religious
holidays?
>
>Please provide evidence as to the ACLU's actions under these
circumstances.
>
>>>>I mean, look how bent out of shape they get when someone says a
>>>>prayer before a high school football game, or how incensed they are
>>>>when someone tries to place a cross next to the menorah at city
halls
>>>>all over the country every December, as if on cue!
>
>Please provide evidence that prayers in Hebrew were permitted where
prayers of
>any other denomination were not. Private religious schools are not
valid 
>references.
>
>>
>>  Look, most people, I'm confident -- unlike you, apparently --
realize
>>that depictions of, say, Santa Claus, Christmas trees, or Easter eggs
>>on product packaging during holidays are NOT religious, but are
>>entirely secular in nature.
>
>Please provide evidence that any objection was made by the ACLU or an
>equivalent organization to the use of actual religious symbols on a
product 
>not made by a publicly-funded group.
>
>>  Which is clearly unlike the "U" symbol used to indicate that
products
>>have received a SPECIAL RELIGIOUS "CERTIFICATION" BY AN ORDAINED
>>OFFICIAL (i.e. A RABBI) OF A PARTICULAR RELIGION.
>>
>
>Please provide proof that this has any bearing on reality.
>
>Please show how a decision by a non-government-funded corporation,
using 
>legitimate marketing methods, bears any relationship to your claim.
>
>>>>  If non-Jews must pay the unconscionably-huge salaries of
Inspector
>>>>Rabbis through higher food prices, then Jews ought to be willing to
>>>>subsidize the purchase of new machines to stamp crosses on
>>>>supermarket-sold foods.
>>
>
>Again - verify that that last sentence has any bearing on reality.




From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun  9 21:21:25 PDT 1996
Article: 42324 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 01:09:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 95
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Danny,
  Well, this is a good sign . . . Is it possible we *both* like Dennis
Miller? :-)
Peace/Shalom,
  JoeBuck

In <9UN199606535177@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny)
writes: 
>
>    Joebuck does a Dennis Miller rant below.  But he still has not
>    addressed the key consideration: this is voluntary for everyone.
>    - It is voluntary for Jews to keep kosher.
>    - It is voluntary for companies to do kosher certification.
>    - It is voluntary for non-kosher people to buy these products.
>
>    Again, Joebuck has not explained why there is an issue if every
party
>    is voluntarily participating in a system.  And until he does this,
it
>    is just an empty rant.
>
>In article <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com
(Charles) writes...
>>[deletia]
>>>> Joe Buck wrote
>>>>  You said it yourself, above:
>>>>             " . . . the extra cost to the kosher family could be
>>>>               in the order of maganitude of $300."
>>>>  That's PRECISELY the point.
>> 
>>>    Yes, that's precisely the point.  A kosher family may choose to
>>>pay upwards of $300 to be kosher.  No one else is effected by it.
>>>    Note that this $300 expenditure is completely voluntary and as
one
>>>has to go out of their way to find a kosher butchershop in order to
>>>pay it, it is unlikely any non-kosher family will find themselves
>>>involved.
>> 
>>  Unbelievable. Seriously, are you being intellectually dishonest or
is
>>it that you genuinely don't "get it"?
>>  The *point* is that Jews have the rather unique advantage of NOT
>>NEEDING TO personally pay the added expenses (i.e. higher food
prices)
>>for kosher products they normally would be forced to (in an
>>unpoliticized market) out of their own pockets in order to eat kosher
>>BECAUSE LITERALLY MILLIONS OF *NON*-KOSHER FAMILIES ARE SUBSIDIZING
>>THEIR RABBIS TO SPEND A FEW HOURS IN FOOD PREPARATION FACTORIES -- AT
>>ADMITTED SALARIES OF $5,000 A DAY PER RABBI! -- TO ENSURE THAT
EVERYONE
>>(WHETHER JEWISH OR NOT) PAYS THESE INCREASED COSTS.
>>  Really, I don't know how I could be more explicit than this, though
>>I'm sure you'll think of some other sophistry to reply with as a
>>diversion from the real issue.
>>  And again, IF Jews were a numerically large percentage of the
>>population, it MIGHT make sense for companies to pay rabbis
exhorbitant
>>salaries to have all their products certified as kosher.
>>  However, this is NOT the case. Jews represent less than 1% of the
>>populations of the US and Canada, and only a minority of that 1% even
>>follows kosher dietary laws! Yet *everyone* -- most notably, the over
>>99% of non-Jewish consumers -- must pay higher prices to appease this
>>small percentage of a small percentage which demands "kosher" food in
>>every supermarket.
>>  Wouldn't it make more sense for this "small percentage of a small
>>percentage" which strictly follows kosher dietary laws to look for
>>products which meet its highly-untypical, explicitly-RELIGIOUS
>>requirements in, say, the "ethnic foods" aisle of the market? Such
>>explicitly "ethnic" foods (for example, rice grown in India or sesame
>>"halvah" candy produced in the Middle East) are usually found in
>>special locations in the market, and are more expensive than the
>>domestic versions. But their purchasers are willing to pay the added
>>expenses involved in buying imported goods because these products
>>satisfy an ethnic or cultural need.
>>  Likewise, shouldn't the Jews be willing to THEMSELVES pay the
>>salaries of those $5,000 a day rabbis who have set up such a
lucrative
>>racket for themselves? 
>>  Believe me, if the Jews THEMSELVES had to subsidize these rabbis, I
>>think you'd immediately see droves of "former" kosher households,
>>accompanied by a new-found skepticism in the
heavily-Jewish-controlled
>>media regarding the claims in support of kosher dietary law! :-)
>>  (BTW, I know, "the corporate media really AREN'T
heavily-influenced,
>>if not largely run, by Jews, and only an anti-semite would say such a
>>thing blah, blah, blah . . . ")
>> 
>>[deletia]
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:41 PDT 1996
Article: 42394 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 02:16:16 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 100
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In 
"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>
>
>On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
>
>> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
Dave's
>> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been'
>> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
eternal,
>> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth
at
>> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
aware of
>> that fact for, well, just ages.
>
>Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of America,

  See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How can
one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad
hominum attacks? 

> and
>an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as you
put
>it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described first
hand
>knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
Charles'
>wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
boiled
>down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
costs a
>firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products,

  I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the
general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was
important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear the
"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
  However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the
consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE
of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law.
  So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the
R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1%
of consumers.
  Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its
Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging of
which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon as
they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the market
bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at how
outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some
small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three
Magi! 
  Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for
companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! 
   
 and
>second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust
of a
>family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly expense
of
>the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
commercials
>for Nilla Wafers!!

  Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the issue?

> Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
>Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed because
it
>sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you an
>antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as fact?
>
>> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not
in
>> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
after
>> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who will
>> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
TV.
>>
>> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that
the
>> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
will
>> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>>
>> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>
>And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside and
out.
>
>		Dave Braun
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:43 PDT 1996
Article: 42395 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 01:57:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 75
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In <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre  writes: 
>
>No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong.

  Thank you.

> Note Dave's  
>neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has been' 
>exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
eternal, 
>and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no truth
at 
>all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been aware
of 
>that fact for, well, just ages. 

  Bartman must have heard that the "kosher tax" claim was once
"exhaustively debunked" on, I guess, "The Jerry Springer Show" so,
understandably, he believed it.

>The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But not
in 
>France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are, after 
>all, the most gullible people in the world,

  Probably true, in many respects.
  And not just "gullible," but frequently dangerously "naive,"
especially in matters in which they, themselves are being "screwed"
(i.e. the $50 billion Mexican bailout, unfair trade with Japan, etc.) 
 . . in a sense, I understand and appreciate the inability of some
here to think rationally regarding this issue because, quite admirably,
they don't wish for anyone to mistakenly think they're GENUINE
anti-semites or racists.
  I suppose REAL anti-semites and racists would also be likely to
question the efficacy of paying an individual rabbi $10,000.00 
(+ expen$es) to look around a food factory two days a year; however,
THEY would be more likely to do so SOLELY because the principal
beneficiaries of kosher "certification" are Jews, and NOT on the purely
economic basis which, to me, is the more legitimate and compelling.
  Really, what amazes me -- then again, maybe I, like a true American,
am just too "naive"! -- is the apparent near-unanimity of the online
Jews regarding this issue. Bartman, McOyVay, Alputz, Braunman . . .
they ALL chimed in as if "on cue," persistently defending the
imposition of the so-called "kosher tax." 
  I'm reminded, by this unanimity, of the weeks before the start of the
Persian Gulf War, when so many well-known Jewish anti-war "pacifists"
and vocal -- indeed, militant -- opponents of the Vietnam War seemingly
spoke as One Voice in support of the US military involvement in the
Middle East. Of course, even a "mainstram" commentator such as Pat
Buchanan was so outraged at this hypocrisy of the 1960s "born-again
Jewish hawks" that he referred to Israel's "amen corner" in the US
which, he said, was "banging the war drum," urging the US to get
involved militarily in the war. All this despite the fact that Jews
were notoriously under-represented in the ranks of those who would
actually be doing the fighting and being exposed to possible chemical
and biological weapons.

> easily conned, who will 
>believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on TV.

>
>But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe that
the 
>kosher inspection is done for FREE? 

  This is exactly what I've been asking.

Or that the food manufacturer will 
>NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer? 

  Precisely.

>Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:44 PDT 1996
Article: 42402 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 01:25:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In

"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>
>
>On 9 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>
>
>You are really a tiresome twit, "Charles".  Steve Bartman of Nabisco
laid
>out, very clearly in a previous post, first, that companies desiring
>kosher certification do so out of a marketing decision--- they believe
they
>will sell more product; second, that the actual cost per family that
>bought some kosher products would be pennies a year.  This whole
thread is
>getting extremly silly--- the only reason people are debating you is
>because they are trying to shut up a lying propagandist attempting to
>spread viscious lies, in order to engender hatred of Jews. Kindly shut
up,
>or post your real name and address so that someone can have the option
of
>flattening your nose, when logical argument fails for the umpteenth
time.

  Look! Up in the sky! It's Macho Jew!
  Sir, believe me, if anyone's nose is going to be "flattened," it'll
be YOURS -- by me -- so cancel that plastic surgery you've likely
already scheduled for yerself! :-)

>No, I don't suppose you will do that.  OK, readers, let's all ignore
>"Charles'" posts from here on in; he has nothing of substance to say,
and
>his lies have been repeatedly refuted.  Readers?
>
>		Dave Braun
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:45 PDT 1996
Article: 42432 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:22:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In 
"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>Apparently, "Charles" isn't old enough to drive a car.  I believe it
is
>child abuse to drum Nazi propaganda into your kid's head.  What
Charles
>needs is counseling.  (see, "I know you are but what am I", said
>repeatedly below). The only time I have actually heard this phrase is
out
>of Bart Simpson's mouth.

  Or was it, instead, out of Steve "the Planters nut-man" Bartman's
mouth?


>		Dave Braun
>
>On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>
>> In
>>

>> "D. Braun"  writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 9 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>> >
>> >> In <8JUN199616561449@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
>> >> (Danny) writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >In article <4pcup6$au0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>,
>> >> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) writes...
>> >> >>In article <4pasr1$rkg@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
>> >> >>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>  Please, by all means, go back to that bookstore and look for
>> some
>> >> >>>books on basic economic theory!
>> >> >>
>> >> >>While he's off to the bookstore, you may wish to head for the
>> >> >>library - or admit what we all know: Your statement about
>> >> >>"Canadian economists" and "$300 a year" are a complete crock.
>> >> >
>> >> >    Not that we need any additional evidence of Joebuck's
>> stupidity,
>> >> but I
>> >> >    can formulate a better justification of the $300 figure than
>> any
>> >> of
>> >> >    them can.
>> >> >
>> >> >    Here is my attempt at a feeble justification:
>> >> >
>> >> >    
>> >> >
>> >> >         If you compare the cost of meat in a kosher butchershop
>> with
>> >> the
>> >> >         cost of unkosher meat in a supermarket and then
>> extrapolate
>> >> out to
>> >> >         the amount of meat a family of four might eat in an
entire
>> >> year,
>> >> >         the extra cost to the kosher family could be in the
order
>> of
>> >> >         magnitude of $300.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>   You said it yourself, above:
>> >>              " . . . the extra cost to the kosher family could be
>> >>                in the order of maganitude of $300."
>> >>   That's PRECISELY the point.
>> >>   Since the *extremely rare [*see below] families which follow
>> kosher
>> >> dietary laws obvously DO NOT pay and extra $300 yearly for the
>> >> mass-market supermarket foods they buy, somebody -- quite clearly
--
>> >> must be. And that "somebody" is -- guess who? -- the ordinary,
>> >> non-kosher-demanding consumer (collectively-speaking).
>> >>   [*"extremely rare" in the sense that the Jews comprise less
than
>> 1%
>> >> of the US/Canadian populations, and only a small minoruty of the
>> Jews
>> >> in these countries -- who are typically very secular,
non-observant
>> >> Jews -- themselves follow kosher dietary laws. Example: Jews --
are
>> >> well-known for being particularly fond of Chinese food; one of
the
>> most
>> >> universally-found components of Chinese food is pork -- an
obviously
>> >> non-kosher food. And please don't tell me Jews regularly order
>> non-pork
>> >> dishes in Chinese restaurants: I've dined out with too many to
know
>> >> otherwise.]
>> >>
>> >> >    This, of course, does not address the real issues of the
>> >> discussion and
>> >> >    in no way is a "kosher tax," but it is $300 in extra costs
for
>> >> >    consuming kosher food.  And our white power rangers
>> >>
>> >>   It's so unfortunate that you feel you must revert to this silly
>> >> name-calling. It reflects more badly on you than on me, I
believe.
>> >>   Who ever said anything in this thread about being a "white
power
>> >> ranger"? Certainly not me, as I reject all "power" appeals based
on
>> >> race and, while I have dificulties with the attitudes and actions
of
>> >> Jews based on their "Chosen People" claim, I ALSO reject the
"white
>> >> power" mentality. We're all just PEOPLE, of equal value in the
Eyes
>> of
>> >> God, okay?
>> >>   Enough of this sleazy slandering of philosophical adversaries
as
>> >> "neo-nazis," "white power rangers," etc!
>> >
>> >Charles, or whomever you are:  You are a lying sack of compost!!
>>
>>   I know you are but what am I?
>>
>> >This $300 figure has been proven, exhaustively, to be a complete
>> >fabrication in posts by someone who works in the food industry(in
this
>> >thread and/or a related one, on alt.fan.rush-limbaugh and
elsewhere.
>> >He showed that at best, the added cost of "K" to the average
consumer
>> might be
>> >pennies a year, if they bought any kosher food at all.You are
simply
>> >attempting to push propaganda that leaves the epithets out, in
order
>> to try to
>> >convince the simply ignorant, as opposed to white supremacists,
>> rascists,
>> >"white power ramgers", etc. of your lies.  Your objective is the
>> same----
>> >to somehow create the impression that Jews are unfairly sucking up
>> money from
>> >non-Jews---- the same lie that has been promulgated for a thousand
>> years.
>> >You are a racist propagandizing creep
>>
>>   I know you are but what am I?
>>
>> --- and those are the nicest words I
>> >can use.  Go back in the closet, put on your brownshirt, and Seig
>> Heil! to
>> >the wall---- you are making lots of people nauseous.
>>
>>   I know you're doing so but what am I doing?
>>
>> >
>> >		Dave Braun
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>  never would have
>> >> >    thought of this on their own... because they really don't
>> >> understand
>> >> >    either basic economic theory or the issue at hand.
>> >> >
>> >> >                         daniel david mittleman
>> >>
>>
>======================================================================
>> >> ====
>> >> >                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:46 PDT 1996
Article: 42433 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:43:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4pg873$jbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>In article <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>
>>  The *point* is that Jews have the rather unique advantage of NOT
>>NEEDING TO personally pay the added expenses (i.e. higher food
prices)
>
>Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food
>certification.

  You go first.

>>ADMITTED SALARIES OF $5,000 A DAY PER RABBI! -- TO ENSURE THAT
EVERYONE
>>(WHETHER JEWISH OR NOT) PAYS THESE INCREASED COSTS.
>
>Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your
>claim.

  You go first.

>>  Really, I don't know how I could be more explicit than this, though
>>I'm sure you'll think of some other sophistry to reply with as a
>>diversion from the real issue.
>
>Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews.

  Demonstrate a negative, huh?
  You go first.

>>  And again, IF Jews were a numerically large percentage of the
>>population, it MIGHT make sense for companies to pay rabbis
exhorbitant
>>salaries to have all their products certified as kosher.
>
>Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase
>kosher-certified product. Document your claim.

  When do you need to know my answer by? Does my report have to be
typed? How many pages? Signed by my parents? Any extra credit? :-)

>Have you been to the library yet, Joebuck?
>
>Archive/File: people/nyms/charles/charles-10q
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/06
>
>Sir... Your public remarks here on the net have raised a few
>points which should be resolved. I have, in the interest of
>resolution, provided a compilation here, and trust you will
>make use of it, and provide clarification.
>
>I will remind you from time to time, knowing how busy you must
>be, by reposting these queries on a regular basis.
>
>Questions 1 and 2				June 5, 1996
>------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   In an article published on June 4, 1996, you included the 
>   following claim:
>
>      "Canadian economists estimate that a typical, smallish 
>      'goy' (i,e, non-Jewish) Canadian family pays upwards of 
>      $300.00 Canadian extra yearly to pay the salaries of rabbis 
>      who ensure that many of the supermarket items they consume 
>      are 'kosher.'" (Anon, Eat less)
>
>   In response to immediate demands that you document that
>   claim, you responded the following day, June 5th, with this
>   remark:
>
>      "A legitimate request. I'll look up the specific references 
>      (names, dates of publication, etc.) as soon as I can get to 
>      a library." (Anon. Re: KOSHER)
>
>   (1) Given that General Foods has reported its cost was 6.5
>   millionths of a penny to obtain kosher certification for a
>   Birds-Eye product, and Heinz has reported that the cost "was
>   so small we can't even calculate it," do you still maintain
>   that this "report" from "Canadian economists" exists, and
>   that it substantiates your claim? (Anon. dayan18, Re: KOSHER TAX)
>
>   (2) Have you been to the library yet?
>
>Followups directed to alt.conspiracy and the "white power"
>discussion groups. Posted & emailed.
>


 [Documentary citations follow]
>   
>                              Work Cited 
>
>   Anon. (joebuck@ix.netcom.com). UseNet alt.conspiracy,
>      alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
>      alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,
>      alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism. Subject: "Eat less 
>      expensively: boycott 'kosher' products," June 4, 1996.
>      Message-ID: 4p2gtr$3ql@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com.
>      Archived in http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/
>      charles/joebuck.0696
>
>   Anon. (joebuck@ix.netcom.com).  UseNet alt.revisionism,
>     
alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,
>      alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,
>      alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich. Subject: "Re:

>      KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada," June 5, 1995.
>      Message-ID: 4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com
>      Archived in http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/
>      charles/joebuck.0696
>
>   Anon. (dayan18@aol.com). UseNet alt.politics.nationalism.white,
>      Subject: "Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada," June 5, 1996.
>      Message-ID: 4p3sse$otk@newsbf02.news.aol.com, archived
>      as http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/
>      kosher-tax/kosher-costs
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource
>    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction -
permanently!)......unlearn



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:46 PDT 1996
Article: 42434 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:33:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <4pgj3n$p7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p7rqs$7tk@news2.ios.com> <4paqqb$brm@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> <4pfvde$f7v@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> 
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In 
"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>Apparently, Charles isn't old enough to drive; on a related thread, he
has
>repeatedly posted "I know you are, but what am I"; the guy is a victim
of
>child abuse---Nazi propaganda forcefed him from a young age.  He needs
>counseling, soon.
>>		Dave braun

  How sad . . . for you. You clearly have a deep-seated emotional need
to fantasize that I grew up in some kind of "Nazi" home -- which would
come as quite a shock to my folks, who are anything BUT "Nazis"!
  The fact of the matter is that I grew up with, and still hold dear to
me, NUMEROUS Jewish friends AND even a coupla Jewish relatives -- all
of whom I sincerely love. Even used to vacation, as a kid, with my
family at Jewish hotels in the Catskills, in fact. Ever heard of The
Nevele? Kutscher's ring a bell? I can still recall ordering THIRDS of
bagels and lox every morning for a week . . . :-) 
  Really, if you stopped being so closed-minded and LISTENED to the
"other side" once in a while, rather than clinging to this idea that
you "can't give an inch," you'd go a long way towards dispelling the
evil of TRUE anti-semitism.

>On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>
>> In <4pf4eq$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre 
writes:
>> >
>> >No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong.
>>
>>   Thank you.
>>
>> > Note Dave's
>> >neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has
been'
>> >exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
>> eternal,
>> >and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no
truth
>> at
>> >all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
aware
>> of
>> >that fact for, well, just ages.
>>
>>   Bartman must have heard that the "kosher tax" claim was once
>> "exhaustively debunked" on, I guess, "The Jerry Springer Show" so,
>> understandably, he believed it.
>>
>> >The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But
not
>> in
>> >France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
after
>> >all, the most gullible people in the world,
>>
>>   Probably true, in many respects.
>>   And not just "gullible," but frequently dangerously "naive,"
>> especially in matters in which they, themselves are being "screwed"
>> (i.e. the $50 billion Mexican bailout, unfair trade with Japan,
etc.)
>>  . . in a sense, I understand and appreciate the inability of some
>> here to think rationally regarding this issue because, quite
admirably,
>> they don't wish for anyone to mistakenly think they're GENUINE
>> anti-semites or racists.
>>   I suppose REAL anti-semites and racists would also be likely to
>> question the efficacy of paying an individual rabbi $10,000.00
>> (+ expen$es) to look around a food factory two days a year; however,
>> THEY would be more likely to do so SOLELY because the principal
>> beneficiaries of kosher "certification" are Jews, and NOT on the
purely
>> economic basis which, to me, is the more legitimate and compelling.
>>   Really, what amazes me -- then again, maybe I, like a true
American,
>> am just too "naive"! -- is the apparent near-unanimity of the online
>> Jews regarding this issue. Bartman, McOyVay, Alputz, Braunman . . .
>> they ALL chimed in as if "on cue," persistently defending the
>> imposition of the so-called "kosher tax."
>>   I'm reminded, by this unanimity, of the weeks before the start of
the
>> Persian Gulf War, when so many well-known Jewish anti-war
"pacifists"
>> and vocal -- indeed, militant -- opponents of the Vietnam War
seemingly
>> spoke as One Voice in support of the US military involvement in the
>> Middle East. Of course, even a "mainstram" commentator such as Pat
>> Buchanan was so outraged at this hypocrisy of the 1960s "born-again
>> Jewish hawks" that he referred to Israel's "amen corner" in the US
>> which, he said, was "banging the war drum," urging the US to get
>> involved militarily in the war. All this despite the fact that Jews
>> were notoriously under-represented in the ranks of those who would
>> actually be doing the fighting and being exposed to possible
chemical
>> and biological weapons.
>>
>> > easily conned, who will
>> >believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
TV.
>>
>> >
>> >But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe
that
>> the
>> >kosher inspection is done for FREE?
>>
>>   This is exactly what I've been asking.
>>
>> Or that the food manufacturer will
>> >NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>>
>>   Precisely.
>>
>> >Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:47 PDT 1996
Article: 42435 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:45:45 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 137
Message-ID: <4pgjr9$4n1@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <9JUN199622254949@cmi.arizona.edu>
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In <9JUN199622254949@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>    Lots of blah blah blah below all of which begs the question: 
>    Joebuck, why do you then buy the kosher food?

  Simple. I missed my chance to buy Israel Bonds and now I'm
guilt-ridden, so I've got to make it up somehow. 

>In article <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
>>In

>>"D. Braun"  writes: 
>>>
>>>On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
>>>
>>>> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
>>Dave's
>>>> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has
been'
>>>> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
>>eternal,
>>>> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no
truth
>>at
>>>> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
>>aware of
>>>> that fact for, well, just ages.
>>>
>>>Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of
America,
>> 
>>  See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How
can
>>one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad
>>hominum attacks? 
>> 
>>> and
>>>an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as
you
>>put
>>>it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described
first
>>hand
>>>knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
>>Charles'
>>>wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
>>boiled
>>>down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
>>costs a
>>>firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products,
>> 
>>  I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the
>>general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was
>>important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
>>might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
>>for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
>>rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear
the
>>"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
>>  However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the
>>consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL
PERCENTAGE
>>of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law.
>>  So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the
>>R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of 1%
>>of consumers.
>>  Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its
>>Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging
of
>>which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon
as
>>they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the
market
>>bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at
how
>>outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some
>>small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three
>>Magi! 
>>  Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for
>>companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification! 
>>   
>> and
>>>second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust
>>of a
>>>family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly
expense
>>of
>>>the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
>>commercials
>>>for Nilla Wafers!!
>> 
>>  Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the
issue?
>> 
>>> Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
>>>Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed
because
>>it
>>>sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you
an
>>>antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as
fact?
>>>
>>>> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But
not
>>in
>>>> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
>>after
>>>> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who
will
>>>> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
>>TV.
>>>>
>>>> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe
that
>>the
>>>> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
>>will
>>>> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>>>>
>>>> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>>>
>>>And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside
and
>>out.
>>>
>>>		Dave Braun
>>>
>> 
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:49 PDT 1996
Article: 42436 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:49:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4pgk2m$12q@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4p45q2$d1a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4pa68a$9bm@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu> <4pg3vh$4q7@news5.erols.com> <9JUN199622300395@cmi.arizona.edu>
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In <9JUN199622300395@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>In article <4pg3vh$4q7@news5.erols.com>, Gabriel McHugh
 writes...
>>>>         the extra cost to the kosher family could be in the order
of
>>>>         magnitude of $300.
>>>
>>>  That's PRECISELY the point.
>>>  Since the *extremely rare [*see below] families which follow
kosher
>>>dietary laws obvously DO NOT pay and extra $300 yearly for the
>>>mass-market supermarket foods they buy, somebody -- quite clearly --
>>>must be. And that "somebody" is -- guess who? -- the ordinary,
>>>non-kosher-demanding consumer (collectively-speaking).
>> 
>>Speaking of kosher - did you ever read
>>a new diet for america by robbins. Just wondering.
>>Apparently 50% of the meat we eat is 'kosher'.
>
>    Yeah, if you order a double quarter pounder at McDonalds, the
lower
>    patty is kosher.  Of course, if you order the double quarter
pounder
>    with cheese...  well then all hell breaks loose.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 

  Actually, from what I've heard, there's increasing acceptance among
scientists of a connection between "certified kosher" beef and Mad Cow
Disease. :-) (Not really!)

>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:49 PDT 1996
Article: 42437 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:38:59 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 152
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In 
"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>I give up. At this point, the best rejoinder to "Charles'" piffle is
>laughter. Note: Below, where I mention that the costs involved with
kosher
>certification (which might add pennies per year to a families entire
food
>budget) would be dwarfed by spending on adds for Nilla Wafers, he
>protested: "Totally irrevelant.  Are you deliberately trying to
confuse
>the issue?".  'nuff said.
>
>		Dave Braun

  Look, the REASON I said it's "totally irrelevant" is that it's like
saying to someone who you've just overcharged for something, "You paid
too much for your house, so why are you quibbling with me for
overcharging you for this pair of shoes?"

>On 10 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>
>> In

>> "D. Braun"  writes:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
>> >
>> >> No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
>> Dave's
>> >> neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has
been'
>> >> exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
>> eternal,
>> >> and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no
truth
>> at
>> >> all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
>> aware of
>> >> that fact for, well, just ages.
>> >
>> >Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of
America,
>>
>>   See how they argue? Smear and slander's the name of the game! How
can
>> one debate real issues with such people, with all their vitriolic ad
>> hominum attacks?
>>
>> > and
>> >an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as
you
>> put
>> >it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described
first
>> hand
>> >knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
>> Charles'
>> >wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
>> boiled
>> >down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
>> costs a
>> >firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products,
>>
>>   I repeat, IF the Jews were a numerically-large percentage of the
>> general consumer population, and IF having kosher certification was
>> important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
>> might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
>> for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
>> rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear
the
>> "U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
>>   However, the fact is that the Jews represent less than 1% of the
>> consumer populations of the US and Canada, AND ONLY A SMALL
PERCENTAGE
>> of that 1% even follows kosher dietary law.
>>   So, in effect, 99%+ of consumers are subsidizing the
>> R-E-L-I-G-I-O-U-S F-O-O-D R-E-Q-U-I-R-E-M-E-N-T-S of a fraction of
1%
>> of consumers.
>>   Now, what if the Catholic Church decided that a new tenet of its
>> Faith is that Catholics may only eat supermarket foods the packaging
of
>> which bears a printed crucifix? Would the Jews remain silent as soon
as
>> they realized that virtually ALL the merchandise for sale in the
market
>> bore a symbol (a crucifix) which they find offensive? Just look at
how
>> outraged Jews become every Christmas, as if on cue, when some some
>> small-town City Hall erects a Nativity Scene or statues of the Three
>> Magi!
>>   Yet it's fine for that same City Hall to erect a menorah or for
>> companies to pay rabbis $5,000 a day for religious certification!
>>
>>  and
>> >second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food
caust
>> of a
>> >family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly
expense
>> of
>> >the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
>> commercials
>> >for Nilla Wafers!!
>>
>>   Totally irrelevant. Are you deliberately trying to confuse the
issue?
>>
>> > Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a "plot" by
>> >Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed
because
>> it
>> >sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you
an
>> >antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as
fact?
>> >
>> >> The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But
not
>> in
>> >> France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
>> after
>> >> all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who
will
>> >> believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones
on
>> TV.
>> >>
>> >> But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe
that
>> the
>> >> kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
>> will
>> >> NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the
consumer?
>> >>
>> >> Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>> >
>> >And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside
and
>> out.
>> >
>> >		Dave Braun
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:50 PDT 1996
Article: 42438 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:19:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 27
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In <4pg4jm$6b@news1.io.org> alec@gryn.org@  (Alec Grynspan) writes: 
>
>In <4pftio$sd1@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com
(Charles) writes:
>>
>>  Look! Up in the sky! It's Macho Jew!
>>  Sir, believe me, if anyone's nose is going to be "flattened," it'll
>>be YOURS -- by me -- so cancel that plastic surgery you've likely
>>already scheduled for yerself! :-)
>
>Want to try me? I was asked what I had against carrying a gun by the
>chief of security at one place that I worked. I pointed out that I
>didn't really see the need.
>
>A couple of months later, they stopped asking me to carry one. A pair
of
>very dead thugs made the reason obvious.
>
>I took out a 3rd dan black belter in under 5 seconds. I was too lazy
to
>work faster.
>
>It's amazing how many anti-semites believe their own stories about
>cowardly jews.

  Oooooooooh! A "karate expert"! Ah-so! Oy-vay! Able to break a stale
matzo with one strike! :-0


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 06:26:51 PDT 1996
Article: 42439 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 07:17:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 42
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In <4pg3vh$4q7@news5.erols.com> Gabriel McHugh 
writes: 
>
>>>         the extra cost to the kosher family could be in the order
of
>>>         magnitude of $300.
>>>
>>
>>  That's PRECISELY the point.
>>  Since the *extremely rare [*see below] families which follow kosher
>>dietary laws obvously DO NOT pay and extra $300 yearly for the
>>mass-market supermarket foods they buy, somebody -- quite clearly --
>>must be. And that "somebody" is -- guess who? -- the ordinary,
>>non-kosher-demanding consumer (collectively-speaking).
>
>Speaking of kosher - did you ever read
>a new diet for america by robbins. Just wondering.
>Apparently 50% of the meat we eat is 'kosher'.

  (Said in typical Johnny Carson manner:) I DID NOT KNOW THAT!
  But seriously, that's interesting. Even the Planters (Nabisco)
"nut-man" Bartman admitted that the food preparation areas are kept
sanitary year-round (as one would expect!)-- which obviously SUPPORTS
my argument that it's quite unnecessary for food producers to pay
rabbis $5,000. a day to snoop around their factories to "certify" that
they're clean.
  50% of the meat we eat is kosher . . . yet Jews comprise less than 1%
of the population, and even only a tiny percentage of THEM follow
kosher dietary laws.
  Rather than have companies PAY these rabbis exhorbitant (admitted)
salaries of $5,000 a day to "certify" that their factories pass their
unneeded "kosher" inspections, perhaps THE CONGREGATIONS of these
rabbis should themselves actually PAY THE COMPANIES to allow them into
the factories to poke their noses around.
  Also, the companies would then NOT have to pass the $5,000 a day
rabbis' salaries on to the consumers; indeed, this would probably
result in LOWER food prices for everyone.
  But of course, that makes entirely too much sense for our
"never-concede-a-thing-to-the-'goys'!" Jewish friends here who, in
their stubbornness, are probably causing more anti-semitism than the
reverse. Which is ironic.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 10 14:03:18 PDT 1996
Article: 22317 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUG, lies, white power rangers
Date: 10 Jun 1996 18:31:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4pha6q$l7@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>In article <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu>, 
>dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu (Danny) wrote to "JOEBUCK"
>
>>    And I keep asking you something akin to, "why did you buy those
shoes
>>    when there were other ones next to it on the rack which didn't
have the
>>    overcharge attached?"  You haven't answered me.
>
>Not answering is his one strength.
>
>>    And Ken keeps asking, "what overcharge?  The increased market
demand
>>    more than makes up for the extra charge.  Can you demonstrate it
really
>>    costs you more?"  And you haven't answered him.
>
>Not answering is his one strength. He continues to offer
>untruths as if they were true, in spite of the clear evidence
>to the contrary.
>
>It appears as if he is more interested in bashing Jews than he
>is in telling the truth.... thus he joins the ranks of Milton
>Kleim, Bobby H*ber, Anna Manicka and the other gutless wonders
>from the ranks of the white power rangers.

  Really, such ridiculous comments about "bashing Jews" and references
to "white power rangers" serve no positive purpose. It's the same kind
of outrageous slander that's been so notoriously directed at Pat
Buchanan, "National Review's" columnist Joe Sobran and others. Such
name-calling actually helps to engender the evil of GENUINE
anti-semitism, IMO . . . which is both ironic and tragic.
  It's getting to the point -- we may be there already -- that any
questioning that may make *some* Jews uncomfortable results in the
questioner being labelled an "anti-semite." Shame on you. 

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/charles/charles-10

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/kosher-tax
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/h/huber.a
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/h/huber.m
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/k/kleim.milton
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource
>    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction -
permanently!)......unlearn



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:13 PDT 1996
Article: 42558 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: JOEBUGS TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 11 Jun 1996 00:08:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 131
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In <4pi09q$dsl@scoop.eco.twg.com> chall@eco.twg.com (Charles Don Hall)
writes: 
>
>In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Charles  wrote:
>>In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>>McVay OBC) writes: 
>>>
>>>In article <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>>>
>>>>important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
>>>>might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning
--
>>>>for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
>>>>rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear
>>the
>>>>"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
>>>
>>>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000
>>>per day as you claim.
>>
>>  You're not serious?
>>  ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e.
from
>>Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There,
>>it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!)
>>  Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their
>>twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00
>>divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated?
>
>(To begin with, I'll parenthetically note that Mr. Bartman never said
>that the "rabbis" were paid "$5,000 a day". He said that a
certification
>board was paid $10,000/year for certification services, which included

>two days of on-site inspection by a rabbi. But this is kind of a
>tangential point...)
>
>Didn't Mr. Bartman also clearly state that the plant in question
>produced fifty million pounds of nuts per year? 
>
>So doesn't the cost of kosher certification work out to $0.0002/lb.,
>or fifteen one-thousandths of a cent per 12-ounce jar? I'm having a 
>little trouble understanding why you're getting so upset. 

  You forgot to mention: " . . . and there are plenty of surrounding
Arab countries that have unused land they could donate to the displaced
Palestinians . . . so why don't they (the displaced Palestinians) stop
their 'whining'?"

>Anyway, as an acknowledged "Liberal", I suppose it's my duty to help
>those who are less fortunate than myself. So, I'm proposing to give
>you a "kosher tax" refund (out of my own pocket!)

  And, as an "acknowledged Liberal," it's not at all surprising that
you think that throwing the money of uninvolved individual(s) -- which
happens to be yourself, in this case -- at a problem is the solution. I
think that the socio-economic history of the United States of the past
30 years illustrates the ridiculousness of such Liberal "solutions.":-)
  It'd be far more just if the few thousand (if that many)
Jewish-American consumers who demand that their foods be "kosher
certified" were themselves willing to pick up the ENTIRE tab for those
$5,000.00 a day rabbis without whining about it: "It's not fair! Why
shouldn't the 99%+ of American and Canadian consumers who DON'T follow
kosher dietary laws pay our beloved rabbis whatever "fees" they ask --
$5,000.00 a day or more -- so that WE can eat kosher? They must be
anti-semites!"
  Again, I think it's quite revealing that, when push comes to shove,
even many of the secular Jews who DON'T follow kosher dietary laws
themselves (the majority of Jews in the US and Canada are secular,
"non-religious" Jews, of course) unite with the very few Jews who DO
follow such dietary rules to argue that EVERYONE -- inculding the
over-99% of consumers who aren't even Jewish -- should pay these rabbis
their exhorbitant salaries. 
 
>Here's what you need to do:
>   * Come up with a list of kosher products that you have to buy
>     that you think are too expensive. Be sure to include prices
>     and brand names.
>   * I'll run down to the supermarket and see if there are any
>     competing brands that are cheaper. If so, I'll give you their
>     names and you can start buying them. (In fact, I'll give
>     you a useful tip right away: Look for the generic "store
>     brands", which usually come in plain black-and-white containers.
>     They're a real bargain.)
>   * If I can't find a cheaper brand, and if the product is kosher,
>     then I'll compute your "kosher tax": I'll find out how much
>     the company spent for kosher certification, divide by the number
>     of units sold, and then multiply by the number of units you buy
>     in a year. (Obviously, if you can get these figures for me, 
>     you'll save time and get your refund check faster.)
>   * I'll add up your total "kosher tax", round it to the nearest
>     penny, and send you a check for that amount.

  Thanks for your offer. Unfortunately, sending solely MY "refund
check" won't quite do the trick. 
  You'll also need to send "refund checks" to every single one of the
millions of OTHER non-kosher-following consumers, too.
  Still willing to do so? :-)

>In exchange, all I ask is that you stop whiiiining about how the
>Mean Old Jews are stealing from you. Not only will that make these
>newsgroups a lot more pleasant, it will probably reduce your blood
>pressure.

  Believe me, MY blood pressure is fine, thanks. 
  As for "whining," it's not me who's been doing it but the Jews who
ceaselessly whine away whenever someone points out the POLITICS behind
the expensive "mass-kosherization" of America's food supplies.

>Anyway, I think that this is a really generous offer. If you're
>not willing to take it, I hope you'll tell us all why.

  I said above that yes, I'll go along with your offer only *IF* you
agree to send out kosher tax "refund checks" to the OTHER millions of
non-kosher-following consumers who now subsidize this racket which so
lucratively benefits these exhorbitantly-paid rabbis.  

>[Followups once again set to the appropriate newsgroups.]

  Thanks for alerting me to your attempted censorship. I re-entered all
the appropriate newsgroups. :-)

>[...]
>-- 
>
>===========================================================
>Charles Don Hall, Licensed Philosopher  (chall@eco.twg.com)
>===========================================================



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 06:44:14 PDT 1996
Article: 42570 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 11 Jun 1996 06:48:21 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In  cynic@bitterend.com writes: 
>
>In article <4pe2h8$j3m@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> joebuck@ix.netcom.com
(Charles) writes:
>>From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
>>Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
>>Date: 9 Jun 1996 08:38:00 GMT
>
>
>Hey jerk,

  I know you are but what am I?

> do you realy believe this tripe?
>
>If you have such a big problem with paying the putitive cost realted
to kosher 
>food processing do the net a favour and either grow your own food so
that both 
>the problem and yourself go away or better yet, stop eating and we can
all 
>look forward to this rubbish disappearing with you.
>
>This thread was old and tedious before it got started.

  Since each message in the thread has a header and, typically,
indicates who the author is, what's your problem? Stop whining, then go
away and die.



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 11 15:10:40 PDT 1996
Article: 42605 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 18:13:26 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <10JUN199603245396@cmi.arizona.edu> dmittleman@cmi.arizona.edu
(Danny) writes: 
>
>In article <4pgjej$hh5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes...
>> 
>>  Look, the REASON I said it's "totally irrelevant" is that it's like
>>saying to someone who you've just overcharged for something, "You
paid
>>too much for your house, so why are you quibbling with me for
>>overcharging you for this pair of shoes?"
>
>    And I keep asking you something akin to, "why did you buy those
shoes
>    when there were other ones next to it on the rack which didn't
have the
>    overcharge attached?"  You haven't answered me.
>
>    And Ken keeps asking, "what overcharge?  The increased market
demand
>    more than makes up for the extra charge.  Can you demonstrate it
really
>    costs you more?" 

 a. As has been repeated over and over, *someone" has got to pay those
rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries.
 b. What "increased market demand"? I think it's been conclusively
demonstrated that those who follow kosher dietary laws are an EXTREME
minority of consumers.
  If the Jews (secular and religious) are less than 1% of the consumer
population, then those of them who follow kosher dietary laws
constitute, I think we've all agreed (however tacitly), that only a
small percentage of THEM require that the foods they eat are "certified
kosher."
  If this small-minority-of-a-small-minority of consumers was forced to
subsidize the certifying rabbis' $5,000. a day salaries alone, there'd
no doubt immediately be a huge population of "ex" kosher-following
Jewish consumers.

 And you haven't answered him.
>
>    Yes, the shoes are a good analogy.
>
  The shoes would be an even BETTER analogy if the surcharge placed on
them was a result of demands by a tiny religious minority of a tiny
racial/religious minority to which over 99% of shoe buyers do not
belong.

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>======================================================================
====
>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 07:49:27 PDT 1996
Article: 57798 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUGS TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 10 Jun 1996 18:24:22 GMT
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 10  1:24:22 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:22419 alt.conspiracy:57798 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:320086 alt.politics.radical-left:97262 alt.politics.perot:48729 alt.politics.usa.republican:214300

In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>In article <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>
>>important to a sufficiently-large part of that percentage, THEN it
>>might, indeed, make sense -- based on strictly economic reasoning --
>>for perhaps thousands of food producers to pay who-knows-how-many
>>rabbis $5,000. a day (as they now do) so their products could bear
the
>>"U" or "K" indicating they "passed inspection."
>
>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000
>per day as you claim.

  You're not serious?
  ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e. from
Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There,
it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!)
  Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their
twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00
divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated?

>You have also yet to back up your specious claim about what
>"Canadian economists" have said.

  True enough, insofar as I haven't provided specific citations.
  Since you're apparently an expatriot-American living in Canada, why
don't you do YOURSELF a favor -- seeing how you, better than I -- are
likely have much better access to back issues of the Alberta, Canada
publication in which these economists were quoted -- and look it up?

>Perhaps you should go the library, and educate yourself,
>rather than repeating these untruths.

  You're in Canada, you'd have much better access to the references.
Got a library card?

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/nyms/charles/charles-10

>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/kosher-tax
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource
>    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>    [Europe] ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/  
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction -
permanently!)......unlearn



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 07:49:29 PDT 1996
Article: 57934 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 12 Jun 1996 01:53:13 GMT
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In <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net> Joe Lockhart 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>>  The *point* is that Jews have the rather unique advantage of NOT
>>NEEDING TO personally pay the added expenses (i.e. higher food
>prices)
>
>McOyVay:
>Demonstrate that "higher food prices" result from kosher food
>certification.
>
>ECDL:
>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1
  
  Are you listening, McOyVay? :-)

>>ADMITTED SALARIES OF $5,000 A DAY PER RABBI! -- TO
>ENSURE THAT EVERYONE
>>(WHETHER JEWISH OR NOT) PAYS THESE INCREASED
>COSTS.
>
>McVay:
>Demonstrate that rabbis are paid $5000 per day. Document your
>claim.
>
>ECDL:
>The Rabbinical group Orthodox Union or OU receives "several
>thousand to several hundred thousand dollars a year, though the
>agency declines to go into detail..." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996
>Page D1

  "Several thousand to SEVERAL HUNDRED THOUSAND . . .," huh? Gee, I
wonder which figure is closer to the truth? 
  BTW, more documentation for ya, McOyVay.

>>  Really, I don't know how I could be more explicit than this, though
>>I'm sure you'll think of some other sophistry to reply with as a
>>diversion from the real issue.
>
>
>McVay:
>Demonstrate that the real issue is not blind hatred for Jews.
>
>ECDL:
>McVay demonstrate that you're not a lackey that on cue is skewing
>the issue with his hyperbole. How typical McVay.

  Not only that, but he's (McOyVay's) actually *demanding* that I prove
a negative! Thus, my earlier characterization of his style of
argumentation as "sophistry" was, apparently, quite accurate, indeed.

>Can you imagine the furore all across this country, if Christians
>demanded that a food manufacturer pay a Minister a fee to put a
>symbol on their products and then pass on the cost to all the
>population? The cry would be loud and clear.

  Absolutely correct.

>Of course lackeys like McVay will say the corporation is not 'forced'
>to let a Rabbi certify his product. The only thing that corporate
>America is concerned with beside the bottom line is image. Being
>some-what of a politician, CEOs and their managers know full well
>to say no to a Jew is like committing political, or economical
suicide. 

  Check out former longtime US Congressman Paul Findlay's book titled
"THEY DARE TO SPEAK OUT: People and Institutions confront the Israel
Lobby" for actual examples of this type of thing.

>This is what the Bible states about fear of the Jews: 
>
>"And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's
>commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a
>feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became
>Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them." Esther 8:17
>
>" The Jews gathered themselves together in their cities throughout all
>the provinces of the king Ahasuerus, to lay hand on such as sought
>their hurt: and no man could withstand them; for the fear of them fell
>upon all people." Esther 9:2
>
>"Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews." John
>7:13
>
>"And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but
>secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away
>the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave [him] leave. He came therefore,
>and took the body of Jesus."  John 19:38
>
>" Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week,
>when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for
>fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto
>them, Peace [be] unto you."  John 20:19
>
>
>>  And again, IF Jews were a numerically large percentage of the
>>population, it MIGHT make sense for companies to pay rabbis
>exhorbitant salaries to have all their products certified as kosher.
>
>McVay:
>Demonstrate that Jews, and only Jews, purchase kosher-certified
>product. Document your claim.
>
>
>ECDL:
>Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is
>that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little
>symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if
>any know about 'Kosher' food Tax

  As you suggest below, OF COURSE many non-Jews (who they refer to as
"goyim") themselves buy kosher products -- frequently, they're the only
kind of products available. 
 In addition, many -- perhaps most -- aren't even aware of what the
kosher "U" or "K" symbols found on food products even refer to; of
course, they have no one to blame butthemselves for not educating
themselves regarding their significance and how their presence means
the products which bear them are -- even if only to a small degree,
i.e. a few cents -- more expensive than necessary.
  If you multiply the extra 6th or 8th of a penny tacked on to almost
every jar, box or can of name-brand supermarket food in order to pay
those rackateering rabbis their ADMITTED (by a former manager of
Nabisco, no less!) $5,000 a day salaries, you're talking a LOT of money
-- millions and millions of dollars in higher prices which consumers
are paying needlessly and, in many cases, unknowingly.

>And yes McVay, by definition it is a TAX.
>
>1) Taxation:
>'the system of compulsory contributions, usually monetary, levied by
>a government upon persons, corporations, and property, primarily for
>fiscal purposes....' 
>Source: Funk & Wagnalls Standard Reference Encyclopedia Vol 23
>Page 8418
>
>According to the definition, although the money collected is not for
>the government, the cost of Kosher food is a 'compulsory
>contribution.' And therefore constitutes a Tax.
>
>Is there a 'Kosher Tax' scam?
>
>We at the ECDL believe that there is a ongoing scam that is being
>funded by 98% of the people for only 2% of the people.

  Actually, Jews comprise less than 1% of the US and Canadian
populations -- though that figure may be somehat higher for Canada
since the late 1960s, when so many US Jews fled north to avoid military
service (which I don't blame them for.)
  Now, of that less-than-1% of the population, ONLY A SMALL FRACTION
follows kosher dietary laws.
  Thus, over 99% of consumers are subsidizing the explicitly religious
demands of a tiny minority of a tiny minority.

> You are told
>that the Kosher certificate will help other people like Muslims, and
>non-meat eaters. The word Kosher is a Jewish term. The certificate is
>given by a Jewish Rabbi and the payment is made to a Jewish agency.
>So who benefits again?

  Wonder if those rabbis would be willing to share some of the
"strenuous work" they have to do poking around food factories twice a
year -- along with their exhorbitant salaries -- with Muslim religious
leaders? (Somehow I feel the answer would be a loud "NO!" :-)

>Where is the ADL in all of this? The ADL in one of their press
>releases stated: ADL: `PROFOUNDLY TROUBLING' RADISSON
>CHARLOTTE HOTEL  PROMOTES ITSELF AS `CHRISTIAN
>FAMILY RESORT'
>The ADL said such a message "from a corporation which endeavours
>to serve the public regardless of religious affiliation is highly
>offensive."

  Boy, the above is right on target.
  Needless to say, our kosher-demanding Jewish friends here will try to
obfuscate the blatant hypocrisy you so pointedly illustrated above.

>What about all the corporations that endeavour to serve the public at
>large that now have to pay money to one religion? Why is the ADL
>not 'profoundly troubled' about that?

  Exactly.

>Should Christians support their own demise?
>
>The real question is: Why should Christians be forced to support a
>race/religion and a people that  promote homosexuality, abortion,
>multiculturalism, all against Christian beliefs. And for the most part
>without their knowledge. The gutless politicians and Ministers have
>remained silent while we unknowingly sit at home and eat  food that
>in part will pay for the murder of un-borne babies, support
>'multiculturalism,' or support the homosexual moment. 
>
>Is it extortion?
>
>I can tell you with all certainty that if a man named 'Geno' came
>calling for money from a manufacturer, the politicians call of
'Mafia,'
>'extortion,' 'racketeering' would be loud and un-relenting. But,
>because this scam is being pulled-off by God's 'chosen ones' there is
>little from our politicians and nothing from the lying Christian
>Ministers. 
>
>You have a choice, some will tell you not to buy Kosher products,
>but at 20,000 items (1991) what are you going to do starve?
>
>___
>
>The Euro-Christian Defence League
>P.O. Box 345 Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, R3C 2H6
>24 Hr Hotline (204) 775-0878
>
>Visit our Web Site at:
>http://www.pathcom.com/~freedom/ecdl/homepage.html
>
>Or visit the Freedom Site at:
>http://www.pathcom.com/~freedom/



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 07:49:30 PDT 1996
Article: 57958 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 12 Jun 1996 02:56:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>Archive/File: orgs/american/adl/kosher-tax/recipe-for-hate
>Last-Modified: 1996/06/10
>
>ADL Special Edition, January 1991
>A periodic update from the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai
>B'rith -- Civil Rights Division
>
>Anti-Semitic Recipe for Hate
>----------------------------
>
>The "Kosher Tax" Hoax
>
>"The Kosher Food Tax is the biggest consumer fraud existing in
>America."
>
>The bizarre claim by right wing extremists that kosher
>certification markings on food labels ("U," "K," etc.) cost
>consumers extra money and represent, in effect, a "kosher tax"
>to make rabbis rich, is a striking example of the propaganda
>used by anti-Semites to trick the uninformed into accepting
>conspiracy charges and stereotypes about Jews.

  Oh, so the only people who believe that paying rabbis $5,000 a day
salaries are "right wing extremists" and "antisemites"? How
broad-minded of you to write that!
  
>Other anti-Semitic allegations regarding kosher designation on
>foods include charges that "the kosher food racket" benefits
>Jewish organizations 

  Well, since one kosher-certifying organization is quoted verbatim in
another of today's post itself stating that it receives "from several
thousand to several hundred thousand dollars annually" for the "kosher
certification services" it provides (which, apparently, amounts to
having a rabbi walk around a food factory for a few hours twice a
year), I think it's reasonable to assume that certain "Jewish
organizations" benefit QUITE NICELY, to say the least, from the "kosher
certification" extortion racket.

>while only a small segment of the
>American population desires such markings,

  Well, consider this: Jews represent less than 1% of the population.
Of that -1%, only a tiny, tiny fraction follows kosher dietary law. So
it's actually completely kosher to say that "only a small segment of
the American population demands such markings"

> and that even the
>meanings of the labels are guarded secrets deliberately kept
>from non-Jews to trick them into paying the "kosher tax."

  How many times have you seen, for example, an informative booklet
attached to a kosher-certified food item package explaining exactly
what "kosher" means, how it doesn't effect the quality of the product
either way and how much it costs?
  With cigarettes and other products, the government mandates the
inclusion of "public service" information on the label. I suggest that
name-brand food products in the US bear similar public service
information, such as,

               "WARNING: YOU MAY HAVE PAID TOO MUCH FOR THIS
                PRODUCT. THIS PRODUCT IS 'KOSHER,' A FEATURE 
                WHICH NUTRITIONISTS SAY ADDS *NO* NUTRITIVE
                VALUE TO FOOD PRODUCTS. ONLY A VERY SMALL PORTION 
                OF LESS THAN 1% OF THE GENERAL CONSUMER POPULATION     
                FOLLOWS 'KOSHER' DIETARY LAW. IF IN DOUBT AS TO
                WHETHER FOLLOWING SUCH A DIET IS ADVISABLE FOR         
                YOU,PLEASE CONSULT WITH YOUR RELIGIOUS OR MEDICAL      
                AUTHORITIES."  

>The Facts
>
>Attacks on the labeling of food with the symbols for
>_kashruth_ (traditional Jewish dietary laws) have been a
>standard ploy of anti-Jewish bigots in the U.S. for decades.

  Again, ANYONE who opposes mandatory kosher certification must be an
"anti-Jewish bigot," in your opinion.

>Such symbols as [encircled U], emblem of the Union of Orthodox
>Jewish Congregations (UOJC), among others, confirm that
>products are kosher -- i.e., that foods and production
>processes have been inspected by competent rabbis from the
>respective organizations and found to be in compliance with
>Jewish dietary law.

  But if Jews are less than 1% of the population, and even most of THEM
ignore kosher dietary law themselves, why force over 99% of consumers
to pay higher food prices to (expensively) appease a VERY, VERY, VERY
tiny minority. 

>The cost to the consumer for this service is a miniscule
>fraction of the total production overhead; it is so negligible
>in practical terms as to be virtually non-existent. 

  That's the EXACT -- and I mean the EXACT -- argument Jews throw at
critics of the multi-billion-dollar annual US welfare $giveaway$ to
Israel: "So the US gives Israel a few billion every year. Big deal!
That's 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the entire US budget.

[deletia]

>"Describing" kashruth, Fields has written that "All of this is
>superstitious nonsense and has absolutely nothing to do with
>improving the quality of any food product. Still, this clever
>scheme of requiring kosher labeling has become a multi-million
>dollar business today!" 
>  Another article in "The Truth At Last"
>asserted that the "kosher tax" is paid to Orthodox Jewish
>organizations "just so an estimated 10% to 20% of Jewry will
>buy their products," and that "we are all forced to pay this
>Kosher Tax just to appease LESS THAN ONE PERCENT OF THE
>POPULATION!"
>
>Bigotry Over a Beer Label
>
>With the recent announcement that the Adolph Coors Brewing
>Co. will carry the [encircled U] symbol on its beer, Hans
>Schmidt, founder of the California-based German-American
>National Political Action Committee (GANPAC) took it upon
>himself to write a protest letter to Peter Coors, President of
>the company . . . 
[deletia]
 > . . . In his letter to Peter Coors, Schmidt asserted that "as
>someone of German descent you ought to be ashamed to acquiesce
>to this scheme. You must know that the Jews in the aggregate
>use a lot of the finances thus gathered to spy on non-Jews, to
>terrorize others (JDL), to ruin other people's businesses
>(numberous Jewish organizations and individuals), and to
>promote their political power to the point where this country
>has been subservient to the needs of another nation (Israel)."
>
>Schmidt also repeated the usual false charges regarding kosher
>symbols, including that "there usually are great costs and
>efforts connected with the kosher certification and that
>rabbis will make upwards of $450,000 from Coors." 

  Yes, one such "certifying" group *ITSELF* ADMITTED in a post today
that it may receive up to "hundreds of thousand of dollars" yearly for
its services, so that $450,000 would appear to be pretty accurate.

>In a
>post-script Schmidt made the suggestion that Coors add the
>following symbols to its label: "a symbolic fish for
>Protestants," "a Catholic cross for Catholics," . . .

  Great idea!
  Plus, the company should PAY every Protestant and Catholic sect for
the "privilege" of being able to include crosses and crucifixes on the
labels of its products, just as Jewish organizations receive literally
$millions$ (perhaps billions, cumulatively) yearly for granting
companies the "privilege" of calling their products "kosher." 
[deletia]





From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 12 09:48:04 PDT 1996
Article: 108179 of alt.politics.correct
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news2.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!darkstar.UCSC.EDU!ico.net!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.economics,alt.philosophy.objectivism,talk.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.misc,alt.economics.austrian-school,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh.tv-show,ca.politics,tx.politics,ny.politics,sa.republican
Subject: Re: getting rid of Limbaugh
Date: 11 Jun 1996 07:04:40 GMT
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In <31BD15E3.2AB2@sirinet.net> saycock  writes: 
>
>wlfmn wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 09 Jun 1996 19:28:16 GMT, bumpy@megalinx.net (Internaut Capt
>> Jack) wrote:
>> 
>> >"Getting rid of Limbaugh", isn't it funny how liberals are against
>> >censorship, until you disagree with them. Facts\the truth hurts, no
>> >wonder the liberals are whining. I wouldn't want someone pointing
out
>> >how wrong I was day after day. When I lived out in Hawaii, Japanese
>> >tourists used to cry at the Arizona Memorial, not only because of
the
>> >raid, death, and distruction, but because their government never
>> >taught them that part of history in school. Japan has no Rush
>> >Limbaugh, exposing the lies of the govt.
>> 
>> And who will protect us from the lies of Limbaugh?
>> 
>> wlfmn
>
>We are not children, we don't need protection.  We can listen to many
>opinions and are perfectly capable of making our own decisions.  This
>simple fact is one totally forgotten by our all-knowing, all-powerful
>present government officials.  THEY UNDERESTIMATE US and that will be
>their undoing!-saycock

  One other thing -- and maybe *the* most important: Unlike the case
with the government, whose corrupt, power-hungry officials can FORCE
people to do things against their will -- such as pay taxes for
programs many find horrendous and immoral -- the much-demonized Rush
Limbaugh and other critics of the "official" powers-that-be (i.e.
Clinton & cronies) cannot FORCE anyone to do ANYTHING.
  By tuning in to Rush and others of his philosophy, people are VOTING
with their minds -- and not through the use of force, at that.
  


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 13 06:28:25 PDT 1996
Article: 42892 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada
Date: 12 Jun 1996 01:54:51 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 85
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In <31BD658D.414C5D9D@mars.superlink.net> Einstein
 writes: 
>
>I think boycotting Kosher food is a good idea .....  I mean why should
>we pay more for food .....  If somebody wants Kosher food then it is
>their responsibility to pay the extra costs for that food .....
>
>Boycott Kosher food! 

  You're an "Einstein"!

>D. Braun wrote:
>> 
>> On 9 Jun 1996, Henry Ayre wrote:
>> 
>> > No, Charles is entirely correct, it is Dave who is wrong. Note
Dave's
>> > neat use of the "voice from the sky" passive tense, "(it) 'has
been'
>> > exhaustively debunked..." As if to say that some disincarnate,
eternal,
>> > and omnipotent Being had decided from on high that there is no
truth at
>> > all to the kosher tax, and that all reasonable people have been
aware of
>> > that fact for, well, just ages.
>> 
>> Henry, you are an apologist for the ignorant anti-semites of
America, and
>> an authority in your own mind only. This "disincarnate" person, as
you put
>> it, was one Steve Bartman, who worked at Nabisco, and described
first hand
>> knowledge of the kosher certification.  He exhaustively debunked
Charles'
>> wild claims, because that is exactyly what he did! His presentation
boiled
>> down to two points: first, kosher certification is but one of many
costs a
>> firm might incur to increase the attractiveness of its products, and
>> second, that this expense might add pennies to the annual food caust
of a
>> family that buys some kosher food. I might add that the yearly
expense of
>> the certification would be dwarfed by one or two prime time
commercials
>> for Nilla Wafers!! Where is the advertising plot?  Could it be a
"plot" by
>> Nabisco to increase sales?  Should all advertising be outlawed
because it
>> sucks the money from gentiles into the coffers of Nabisco? Are you
an
>> antisemitic twit ineffectually trying to pass off propaganda as
fact?
>> 
>> > The kosher food scam is over 100 years old and going strong. But
not in
>> > France, nor elsewhere in Europe to my knowledge. Americans are,
after
>> > all, the most gullible people in the world, easily conned, who
will
>> > believe any statement at all if it is pronounced in grave tones on
TV.
>> >
>> > But really, does anyone willing to think about it a bit believe
that the
>> > kosher inspection is done for FREE? Or that the food manufacturer
will
>> > NOT pass this cost, however slight, onto the back of the consumer?
>> >
>> > Wake up America!  H. Ayre.
>> 
>> And recognize that the "H Ayres" of the world are garbage, inside
and out.
>> 
>>                 Dave Braun
>
>-- 
>"The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we
are 
>permitted to remain children all our lives."
>					-- Albert Einstein
>mailto:einstein@mars.superlink.net
>http://mars.superlink.net/einstein



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 07:15:37 PDT 1996
Article: 43051 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 12 Jun 1996 16:21:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 111
Message-ID: <4pmqpq$3p5@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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In <4plaev$dsc@nadine.teleport.com> kathleen@teleport.com (Kathleen
Mulhern) writes: 
>
>In article <1996Jun11.063124.398@wpg.ramp.net>,
>   Joe Lockhart  wrote:
>
>>ECDL:
>>O.K. "Kosher products usually cost more than their non-Kosher
>>counterparts." Winnipeg Free Press June 5,1996 Page D1
>
>>ECDL:
>>Jews and goyim both purchase Kosher products. The only different is
>>that some Jews know about the Kosher scam and look for the little
>>symbols. If you were to ask most other people, you would find few if
>>any know about 'Kosher' food Tax
>
>>The real question is: Why should Christians be forced to support a
>>race/religion and a people that  promote homosexuality, abortion,
>>multiculturalism, all against Christian beliefs. And for the most
part
>>without their knowledge. The gutless politicians and Ministers have
>>remained silent while we unknowingly sit at home and eat  food that
>>in part will pay for the murder of un-borne babies, support
>>'multiculturalism,' or support the homosexual moment. 
>>
>>Is it extortion?
>
>>You have a choice, some will tell you not to buy Kosher products,
>>but at 20,000 items (1991) what are you going to do starve?
>
>{a lot of useless ranting, blathering, hate-mongering, lies and other 
>		completely non-Christian text deleted}
>
>Why would consumers buy a product if it's more expensive?  Since many 
>people don't know what the 'U' or 'K' stand for, why would they choose
the 
>more expensive product over a cheaper brand without the symbols that
they 
>don't understand anyway?  Wouldn't you think, if those (as you 
>characterize them in a manner blatently contradictory to Jesus
Christ's 
>teachings)

  Truly, you are an ignorant woman. Thankfully, you're not
representative of most women! :-)

> evil, abortion-forcing, scam-artist Jews really wanted to "pull 
>one over" on the non-Jewish population, don't you think they'd put
some 
>labelling like "BUY THIS.  IT'S BETTER THAN THE CHEAPER STUFF" in bold

>letters on the front of the product instead of a discrete 'U' or 'K'? 

  Your naivete knows no bounds!

>Of 
>course, as had been proven by Steven Bartman, a one-time manager of
food 
>manufacturing companies, and by the ADL with cites from actual 
>manufacturing companies such as R.J.R. Nabisco and Entenmans, the
"huge 
>tax" imposed upon comsumers of 'K' or 'U' labeled products is about 
>0000065 cents.  It's too bad you and your other non-Christian co-horts

>feel so put out by this tax, but perhaps you should just not buy
kosher 
>products, and leave the rest of us to decide whether we want to pay
that 
>"huge tax" for kosher products or not.  I am not a Jew but purchase
many 
>kosher products because I feel they are of a higher quality than other

>products.  And, surprise surprise, I pay no more for the kosher
products 
>than I do for the non-kosher products.  In fact, when I go grocery 
>shopping next, I'll save my reciept and post the cost of kosher as 
>compared to non-kosher.  The bottom line is, you have freedom of
choice 
>(although you wish others did not) to buy whatever you want.  If you
don't 
>want kosher, don't buy kosher.  It's as simple as that.  Now please
stop 
>making yourselves look any stupider than yu already have. 

  Actually, as anyone with any degree of sophistication would likely
agree, it appears that you, indeed, are the one who's making themself
look dumb.
  Now, as for Alputz, Bartman, Mittleman et al, we entirely understand
why THEY would expend as much energy as they have in support of the
kosher tax. OTOH, you, honey, are merely a "useful idiot" to them. :-)

> Jesus Christ is 
>not pleased by your hate-mongering rhetoric and actions, all done in
his 
>name. 

  Oh, so you've spoken to Him? Does He have an 800 number? 
  How long have you had these conversations?

> It directly contradicts his teachings.  Or is that part of the 
>Bible "up for interpretation," while the parts you agree with are
taken 
>literally, hypocritical liars?
>
>----
>--kathleen@teleport.com
>
>"I have no respect for a man who can
>only think of one way to spell a word."
>	-Andrew Jackson



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 07:15:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43141 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: JOEBUCK TAX RIPOFF LIE - Canada
Date: 14 Jun 1996 04:07:15 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 93
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In <4ppgm4$9gt@nadine.teleport.com> kathleen@teleport.com (Kathleen
Mulhern) writes: 
>
>In article <4pmqpq$3p5@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>   joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>
>>Truly, you are an ignorant woman. Thankfully, you're not
>>representative of most women! :-)
>
>I believe this is the part where I quote you... "I know you are but
what 
>am I..." 

  You have learned well. :-)

 Another instance of your hypocritical ignorance, showcased by 
>your ridiculous response.
>
>>Your naivete knows no bounds!
>
>So you're just going to throw around ad homs and not reply to
anything, 
>hypocritical liar?  O.K.... "I know you are but what am I..."

  [insert tape of me doing Gleason's "Honeymooners"-era "homina,
homina, homina" routine]

>> Actually, as anyone with any degree of sophistication would likely
>>agree, it appears that you, indeed, are the one who's making themself
>>look dumb.
>
>Oh really?  Try re-reading Steve Bartman's posts, which completely
prove 
>everything you puked out onto a computer screen is 100% false.  "I
know 
>you are but what am I..."  You blatant hypocrite.

  Once more, with feeling . . . 

>>Now, as for Alputz, Bartman, Mittleman et al, we entirely understand
>>why THEY would expend as much energy as they have in support of the
>>kosher tax. OTOH, you, honey, are merely a "useful idiot" to them.
:-)
>
>I'm an "idiot" because I know the truth when it's presented?  I
believe 
>the "idiot" would be you, who is constantly, consistently proven wrong
by 
>people who have first hand-knowledge of the things that you try to lie
>about.

  And your proof for this is . . . ? :-) 

>And you, darling one, are just a "useful idiot" to the anti-Semitic
liars 
>who agree with you.  "I know you are but what am I..."  You uneducated
>fool.

  Oooooooooooooooh! You said a bad word! I'm telling!

>>Oh, so you've spoken to Him? Does He have an 800 number? 
>>How long have you had these conversations?
>
>You and your slimy little cohorts claim to follow the Bible, in which
it 
>is written that Jesus preached to "love thy neighbor" and preached 
>understanding and acceptance of everyone.  You obviously skipped that 
>part, or just ignored it.  According to the Christian religion, of
which 
>you claim to be a member, you're going to hell.  

  Well, I don't recall Jesus teaching His followers to be naive.       
  However, I do recall that Jesus warned about legalistic scumbags (not
His words) who try to weasel their way out of admitting the error of
their ways and ideas while, simultaneously, trying to confuse the
positions of their opponents with all manner of sophistries. 
  Too, the last I checked, Jesus urged His followers to be "as shrewd
as serpents" (i.e. their persecutors) -- not "useful idiots."

>----
>--kathleen@teleport.com
>
>"I have no respect for a man who can
>only think of one way to spell a word."
>	-Andrew Jackson

 "I have no respect for a woman who cannot
  think."
       -JoeBuck
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 07:15:42 PDT 1996
Article: 43144 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 13 Jun 1996 03:47:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 
>
>Henry Ayre  wrote:
>
>>I note someone has claimed that Spam is not part of the kosher food
game. 
>>Spam has pork in it. Wouldn't it be a riot if some Rabbi approved
Spam as 
>>a kosher food? In fact, one unnamed Rabbi did something similar in 
>>approving a certain brand of lard (pork fat) as kosher! He
desperately 
>>wanted the fee that came with each approval. Shortly thereafter, the 
>>approval was yanked by Jewish authorities in the hierarchy who 
>>(ruefully?) saw that such a kosher approval would expose the whole
scam 
>>to ridicule.  H. Ayre.
>
>So spam is non-kosher?  There is something profound in this statement,
with
>meaning for life, the internet, and everything.
>
>BTW: I've worked at a food factory, and they had a day set aside every
so often
>for a Rabbi to come by and certify their food, as well as one line
entirely set
>apart for Kosher certified food.  I'm unaware how much this cost them,
or made
>them.   
>
>It is pretty bizarre though.  

  Not only "bizarre," but VERY expensive! Can you imagine the extra
costs involved in setting aside one special line for "kosher certified
food" -- quite apart from the added expense involved inpaying a rabbi
$5,000.00 each time he visits the plant.
  As a former food-factory worker yourself, were you paid anything near
$5,000.00 a day, btw?

>Max Kennedy
>



From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 07:15:43 PDT 1996
Article: 43171 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Anti-semitic lies that idiots keep harping on
Date: 14 Jun 1996 11:58:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4pqmoa$rum@xensei3.xensei.com> ktakki@artcrime.com (Karlo Takki)
writes: 
>
>In article <4pfss2$4vh@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles Catalano) spews:
>
>> I know you are but what am I?
>
>Clueless.  Totally clueless.

  Well, "takki" you certainly are . . . ;-)
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 09:16:36 PDT 1996
Article: 58157 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.org.fbi
Subject: Re: I know who burned a church
Date: 13 Jun 1996 15:10:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4ppb21$kpo@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <8up-1006961944470001@ibpd-628.phys.uh.edu> <31bd8219.2697248@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pk6uj$akq@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,<31BE6FDD.A775941@mars.superlink.net> <4pko8h$mcv@fnnews.fnal.gov> <4pms2k$gb@news.wizvax.net> <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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  This is great. And all too true . . . 

In <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> tdp@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter)
writes: 
>
>To whom it may concern.
>
>I would like to publicly announce that
>I know of an unsolved church burning,
>and I know who is responsible for the burning.
>
>Yesterday, the President of the United States said,
>
>"IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THE UNSOLVED CASES,
>COME HELP US SOLVE THEM.
>
>WE CANNOT LET SOMEONE COME IN INTO OUR DEMOCRATIC HOME,
>THE HOME OF OUR FAITH AND START TORCHING OUR HOUSES OF
>WORSHIP."
>
>I witnessed a church burning a couple of years ago,
>in Waco, Texas in which dozens of women and children 
>were burned to death.
>
>As the President also stated, 
>"THE PEOPLE WHO BURN CHURCHES MUST BE PUNISHED!"
>
>I hope, that as the President asserts, that the perps 
>of ALL church burning be brought before a jury, in the 
>state where the burning occured, and prosecuted to the 
>full extent of the law! I am prepared to do my duty
>as a loyal citizen, and do whatever I can, to see that
>the perps of the Waco church burning are brought before 
>a jury, and held accountable for their heinous crimes.
>
>It seems to me that it is a far more serious crime to
>burn down a church filled with women and children,
>than to burn down one that is not even used. Let us
>hope that the President means what he says, and that
>he will work to bring ALL church burners to justice.
>
>Let us hope, that if some of these perps turn out to
>be government employees, that they will be punished
>as severely as a poor, ignorant, private-sector,
>person would be.
>
>Tom Potter    http://pobox.com/~tdp
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 09:16:37 PDT 1996
Article: 58322 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Church fires = Democrats' Reichstag '96?
Date: 13 Jun 1996 09:07:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <4polo2$ps3@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:58322 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:321066

  I think the Subject line says it all? 
  Whattya think?


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 10:06:26 PDT 1996
Article: 389763 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.org.fbi
Subject: Re: I know who burned a church
Date: 13 Jun 1996 15:10:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4ppb21$kpo@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <8up-1006961944470001@ibpd-628.phys.uh.edu> <31bd8219.2697248@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pk6uj$akq@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,<31BE6FDD.A775941@mars.superlink.net> <4pko8h$mcv@fnnews.fnal.gov> <4pms2k$gb@news.wizvax.net> <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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  This is great. And all too true . . . 

In <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> tdp@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter)
writes: 
>
>To whom it may concern.
>
>I would like to publicly announce that
>I know of an unsolved church burning,
>and I know who is responsible for the burning.
>
>Yesterday, the President of the United States said,
>
>"IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THE UNSOLVED CASES,
>COME HELP US SOLVE THEM.
>
>WE CANNOT LET SOMEONE COME IN INTO OUR DEMOCRATIC HOME,
>THE HOME OF OUR FAITH AND START TORCHING OUR HOUSES OF
>WORSHIP."
>
>I witnessed a church burning a couple of years ago,
>in Waco, Texas in which dozens of women and children 
>were burned to death.
>
>As the President also stated, 
>"THE PEOPLE WHO BURN CHURCHES MUST BE PUNISHED!"
>
>I hope, that as the President asserts, that the perps 
>of ALL church burning be brought before a jury, in the 
>state where the burning occured, and prosecuted to the 
>full extent of the law! I am prepared to do my duty
>as a loyal citizen, and do whatever I can, to see that
>the perps of the Waco church burning are brought before 
>a jury, and held accountable for their heinous crimes.
>
>It seems to me that it is a far more serious crime to
>burn down a church filled with women and children,
>than to burn down one that is not even used. Let us
>hope that the President means what he says, and that
>he will work to bring ALL church burners to justice.
>
>Let us hope, that if some of these perps turn out to
>be government employees, that they will be punished
>as severely as a poor, ignorant, private-sector,
>person would be.
>
>Tom Potter    http://pobox.com/~tdp
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 10:33:20 PDT 1996
Article: 269916 of talk.politics.guns
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.org.fbi
Subject: Re: I know who burned a church
Date: 13 Jun 1996 15:10:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4ppb21$kpo@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <8up-1006961944470001@ibpd-628.phys.uh.edu> <31bd8219.2697248@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pk6uj$akq@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,<31BE6FDD.A775941@mars.superlink.net> <4pko8h$mcv@fnnews.fnal.gov> <4pms2k$gb@news.wizvax.net> <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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  This is great. And all too true . . . 

In <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> tdp@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter)
writes: 
>
>To whom it may concern.
>
>I would like to publicly announce that
>I know of an unsolved church burning,
>and I know who is responsible for the burning.
>
>Yesterday, the President of the United States said,
>
>"IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THE UNSOLVED CASES,
>COME HELP US SOLVE THEM.
>
>WE CANNOT LET SOMEONE COME IN INTO OUR DEMOCRATIC HOME,
>THE HOME OF OUR FAITH AND START TORCHING OUR HOUSES OF
>WORSHIP."
>
>I witnessed a church burning a couple of years ago,
>in Waco, Texas in which dozens of women and children 
>were burned to death.
>
>As the President also stated, 
>"THE PEOPLE WHO BURN CHURCHES MUST BE PUNISHED!"
>
>I hope, that as the President asserts, that the perps 
>of ALL church burning be brought before a jury, in the 
>state where the burning occured, and prosecuted to the 
>full extent of the law! I am prepared to do my duty
>as a loyal citizen, and do whatever I can, to see that
>the perps of the Waco church burning are brought before 
>a jury, and held accountable for their heinous crimes.
>
>It seems to me that it is a far more serious crime to
>burn down a church filled with women and children,
>than to burn down one that is not even used. Let us
>hope that the President means what he says, and that
>he will work to bring ALL church burners to justice.
>
>Let us hope, that if some of these perps turn out to
>be government employees, that they will be punished
>as severely as a poor, ignorant, private-sector,
>person would be.
>
>Tom Potter    http://pobox.com/~tdp
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 10:51:16 PDT 1996
Article: 108519 of alt.politics.correct
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.org.fbi
Subject: Re: I know who burned a church
Date: 13 Jun 1996 15:10:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4ppb21$kpo@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <8up-1006961944470001@ibpd-628.phys.uh.edu> <31bd8219.2697248@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <4pk6uj$akq@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,<31BE6FDD.A775941@mars.superlink.net> <4pko8h$mcv@fnnews.fnal.gov> <4pms2k$gb@news.wizvax.net> <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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  This is great. And all too true . . . 

In <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> tdp@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter)
writes: 
>
>To whom it may concern.
>
>I would like to publicly announce that
>I know of an unsolved church burning,
>and I know who is responsible for the burning.
>
>Yesterday, the President of the United States said,
>
>"IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THE UNSOLVED CASES,
>COME HELP US SOLVE THEM.
>
>WE CANNOT LET SOMEONE COME IN INTO OUR DEMOCRATIC HOME,
>THE HOME OF OUR FAITH AND START TORCHING OUR HOUSES OF
>WORSHIP."
>
>I witnessed a church burning a couple of years ago,
>in Waco, Texas in which dozens of women and children 
>were burned to death.
>
>As the President also stated, 
>"THE PEOPLE WHO BURN CHURCHES MUST BE PUNISHED!"
>
>I hope, that as the President asserts, that the perps 
>of ALL church burning be brought before a jury, in the 
>state where the burning occured, and prosecuted to the 
>full extent of the law! I am prepared to do my duty
>as a loyal citizen, and do whatever I can, to see that
>the perps of the Waco church burning are brought before 
>a jury, and held accountable for their heinous crimes.
>
>It seems to me that it is a far more serious crime to
>burn down a church filled with women and children,
>than to burn down one that is not even used. Let us
>hope that the President means what he says, and that
>he will work to bring ALL church burners to justice.
>
>Let us hope, that if some of these perps turn out to
>be government employees, that they will be punished
>as severely as a poor, ignorant, private-sector,
>person would be.
>
>Tom Potter    http://pobox.com/~tdp
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 12:11:59 PDT 1996
Article: 97887 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.general
Subject: Re: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"]
Date: 14 Jun 1996 13:42:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 191
Message-ID: <4prq7k$lgs@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pg0hg$fr2@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pmm3v$qho@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4pqe0e$il4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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In <4pqe0e$il4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve
Bartman) writes: 
>
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>>In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>
>>>In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>>>McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>>>>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000
>>>>per day as you claim.
>
>>>  You're not serious?
>
>>Yes, I am.
>
>>>  ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e.
from
>>>Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread.
There,
>>>it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!)
>
>>No, not fact. See below.
>
>>>  Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their
>>>twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00
>>>divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated?
>
>>Sorry, but I don't think you are reading him correctly. The
>>fee is paid to an organization, for service rendered, not to
>>any rabbi - i.e. it is not a salary. 
>
>The "horse" is weighing in again. I left this thread days ago, and
>just peeked in. I find Chuckie still refusing to understand simple
>English. For clarity, Ken, (although I see that you already fully
>understand my former statements), I'll restate. I don't think Chuckie
>will get it, but I stopped caring about him last week.

  Which is why you came back to restate your inherently flawed thesis,
one supposes . . . :-)

>The fee (note, NOT salary)

  Oooooooooooh . . . BIG difference! (Not!) Heaven forbid a Jew should
receive a "salary"!
  Talk about pettiness!  
  Look, call it a "salary," call it a "fee" or call it a "knish": it
all comes down to the "certifying" rabbi putting $5,000.00 in his
wallet for walking around a food factory and snooping around quite
unnecessarily.
  Even YOU yourself, the former manager with Nabisco and apologist for
the liitle-known kosher tax, acknowledged that the food preparation
areas are ALWAYS kept in sanitary condition.
  So why the need for some rabbi to snoop around the place -- possibly
introducing MORE germs into the area -- at an incredible "fee" of
$5000,00. (which is your own figure) a day?
  And I know, the ten grand the rabbi receives for essentially doing
NOTHING to improve the food he "inspects" doesn't, of course, come out
of anyone's pocket . . . (And they say *I* don't understand economics!)

> is to the organization owning the kosher
>mark. (I believe they are FTC registered, although I can't say for
>certain.) The bid for the certification is by the organization, the
>mark is granted by the organization, the check to pay is cut 'pay to
>the order of' the organization, the organization dispatches rabbis to
>the plant at their discretion, requests by consumers about exactly
>what the mark means are routed to the organization.

  "The organization dispatches rabbis to the plant at their
discretion"? Kinda like a rabbinical SWAT Team, huh? I can just imagine
the scenario:

 "Uh, Rabbi Weinstein, we've got a problem at the Kraft Food factory 
 . ." 

 "10-4"
  
  "Looks like one of the goy food prep workers mistakenly added a
teaspoon of pork to the new instant ham 'n eggs mix . . . "

  "But Lt., you *said* 'ham 'n eggs mix,' right? . . . "

  "Look, Weinstein, there's no time to argue at a time like this . . .
I want your ass in that factory NOW! If you so much as smell a gram of
pork in that place, I want every line shut down till we can get
Goldfish and Kimmelstein out there in the morning . . . "

  "10-4, Lt."

  But gee, I never realized that being a "kosher-certifying" org was so
hard!
  Do these organizations which are charged with answering these
consumers' incessant requests for information maintain 24-hours-a-day
personnel to handle these consumer questions? I'm sure at least 500
people a day call to ask about those almost-invisible "U's" and "K's"
on the labels of their olives and pickles . . . 

> Not the rabbis
>calling on the plant. Is that clear enough?

  Actually, no.

>The organization could send one rabbi, two, ten, or one thousand, and
>the fee would be $10,000, exactly as bid. It is not salary to any
>individual. The main economic underpining of the fee is the
>reputation, history, and credibility of the organization has with
>consumers reading the mark at retail.

  You CAN'T be serious, Bartman? 
  I think we've established far, far beyond a doubt that 99% of
"consumers reading the mark at retail" have virtually NO IDEA what that
"U" or that "K" on the label even means!
  Again, Jews represent less than 1% of the consumer population. Of
this 1%, ONLY A TINY FRACTION FOLLOWS KOSHER DIETARY LAWS.
  So stop trying to justify the kosher tax on a false premise.

>This has been earned over many
>years, and has marketplace value.

  NOT!

> Basic economic theory, backed up by
>reams of studies,

  Such as . . . ?

> show that reputation has great economic value. When
>companies are sold for more than book value the difference is assumed
>to be the stored value of their brands and marks, and is entered on
>the books as "goodwill" and depreciated over ensuing years.

  Thanks for the evasive answer. What "stored value" are you talking
about? Only a tiny, tiny percentage of consumers even know what
"kosher" means, much less demand their food be marked as such.

> As I said before the kosher marks are EXACTLY the same as other marks
>in the world of packaged goods such as the Good Housekeeping Seal of
>Approval,

  NOT TRUE!

> the UL mark on electric devices,

  NOT TRUE!

>and the seal of the American Dental Society on Crest toothpaste.

  Again, NOT TRUE! I find it hard to believe that you actually believe
this yourself! Let me explain:
  The Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, the UL mark on electrical
devices and the American Dental Society seal on toothpase ensure
PRODUCT QUALITY and SAFETY.
  They are NOT there to proclaim that the products which bear them have
been "approved" by the officials (i.e. ministers or rabbis) of any
specific racial-religious group.

> All paid for after
>certain hurdles are cleared by the manufacturer, all with marketplace
>value to different groups of potential consumers.

  Yes, EVERONE -- ALL CONSUMERS, regardless of religion -- require
safe, effective products which serve the purposes for which they were
produced. 
  But *everyone* does not require their products to be "ok'd" by any
particular religious officials.
  Can you imagine the outcry, for example, if Catholics demanded that
matzos be "blessed" by Catholic priests -- who must be paid $5,0000. a
day "fees"? The ACLU would go nuts!

>If that doesn't make this "$5000 per day" crap stop my advice would be
>to ignore Chuckie. Every time you respond to his non-responses he
>spreads his brand of hate a little farther.

  Pitiful, really. Are you SO intimidated by those who point out the
questionable foundations of your position that you simply MUST resort
to the ad hominum style of argumentation? It merely illustrates the
essential poverty of your position, IMO.

>As a personal aside, I did get a chuckle out of something he said in
>an earlier thread (although I kill-filed him, people keep quoting
>him). 

  Such as, for one, you yourself . . . 

[deletia]
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 12:25:17 PDT 1996
Article: 245315 of alt.politics.clinton
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.org.fbi
Subject: Re: I know who burned a church
Date: 13 Jun 1996 15:10:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4ppb21$kpo@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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  This is great. And all too true . . . 

In <4po8dt$7ip@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> tdp@ix.netcom.com(Tom Potter)
writes: 
>
>To whom it may concern.
>
>I would like to publicly announce that
>I know of an unsolved church burning,
>and I know who is responsible for the burning.
>
>Yesterday, the President of the United States said,
>
>"IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANY OF THE UNSOLVED CASES,
>COME HELP US SOLVE THEM.
>
>WE CANNOT LET SOMEONE COME IN INTO OUR DEMOCRATIC HOME,
>THE HOME OF OUR FAITH AND START TORCHING OUR HOUSES OF
>WORSHIP."
>
>I witnessed a church burning a couple of years ago,
>in Waco, Texas in which dozens of women and children 
>were burned to death.
>
>As the President also stated, 
>"THE PEOPLE WHO BURN CHURCHES MUST BE PUNISHED!"
>
>I hope, that as the President asserts, that the perps 
>of ALL church burning be brought before a jury, in the 
>state where the burning occured, and prosecuted to the 
>full extent of the law! I am prepared to do my duty
>as a loyal citizen, and do whatever I can, to see that
>the perps of the Waco church burning are brought before 
>a jury, and held accountable for their heinous crimes.
>
>It seems to me that it is a far more serious crime to
>burn down a church filled with women and children,
>than to burn down one that is not even used. Let us
>hope that the President means what he says, and that
>he will work to bring ALL church burners to justice.
>
>Let us hope, that if some of these perps turn out to
>be government employees, that they will be punished
>as severely as a poor, ignorant, private-sector,
>person would be.
>
>Tom Potter    http://pobox.com/~tdp
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 12:50:48 PDT 1996
Article: 43216 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 14 Jun 1996 14:21:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4prma7$b5@portal.gmu.edu> hkilpatr@osf1.gmu.edu (HENRY E.
KILPATRICK JR.) writes: 
>
>tcom.com> <4pf6at$a6u@byatt.alaska.net> 
<4po305$sg9@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
>: Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
>Distribution: 
>
>Charles (joebuck@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 
>: >
>: >Henry Ayre  wrote:
>: >
>: >>I note someone has claimed that Spam is not part of the kosher
food
>: game. 
>: >>Spam has pork in it. Wouldn't it be a riot if some Rabbi approved
>: Spam as 
>: >>a kosher food? In fact, one unnamed Rabbi did something similar in

>: >>approving a certain brand of lard (pork fat) as kosher! He
>: desperately 
>: >>wanted the fee that came with each approval. Shortly thereafter,
the 
>: >>approval was yanked by Jewish authorities in the hierarchy who 
>: >>(ruefully?) saw that such a kosher approval would expose the whole
>: scam 
>: >>to ridicule.  H. Ayre.
>: >
>: >So spam is non-kosher?  There is something profound in this
statement,
>: with
>: >meaning for life, the internet, and everything.
>: >
>: >BTW: I've worked at a food factory, and they had a day set aside
every
>: so often
>: >for a Rabbi to come by and certify their food, as well as one line
>: entirely set
>: >apart for Kosher certified food.  I'm unaware how much this cost
them,
>: or made
>: >them.   
>: >
>: >It is pretty bizarre though.  
>
>:   Not only "bizarre," but VERY expensive! Can you imagine the extra
>: costs involved in setting aside one special line for "kosher
certified
>: food" -- quite apart from the added expense involved inpaying a
rabbi
>: $5,000.00 each time he visits the plant.
>
>Can you imagine the extra income (not to mention the goodwill) that a
>business might receive from selling people exactly what they want? 

  What "people" are you referring to?
  It's already been quite well established in this thread that:
a. Jews comprise less than 1% of the population; and 
b. of that -1%, only a very small fraction follows kosher dietary law.
  Thus, the rabbis' $5,000.00 a day salaries turn out to be
economically quite *expensive* . . .  not that you'd understand that. 

>Including those who are not Jewish, but who look upon the Kosher
symbol as a sign of quality? 

  I refer you to Bartman, the former Nabisco manager, who specifically
stated that nothing at all changed in the food factory because the
rabbi had a visit planned. It was just as sanitary BEFORE the rabbi's
$5,000.00 as it was after. 
  So your "kosher-mark-as-a-seal-of-quality" argument evaporates.

>Guess not.  You're obviously better off as a wage slave than a
>businessman. 

  "Wage slave"? Sounding a bit "Marxist," aren't you? What extremism!
Pot, kettle, black, as they say . . . :-)
  
>:   As a former food-factory worker yourself, were you paid anything
near
>: $5,000.00 a day, btw?
>
>Are you sure they are paid that much?  Evidence?  And what if they
are? 

  That's the figure Bartman, the former Nabisco manager -- who argues
IN FAVOR or maintaining the koshertax, btw -- gave. However, I suspect
he now regrets having revealed the true amount (i.e. $5,000.00 a day)
that the rabbis get in this "kosher certification" racket -- now the
apologists for the kosher tax can't claim they receive just "a few
dollars" because "they only actually visit the food production site two
days a year."
  Imagine, $10,000.00 for two days of snooping around a food factory!
Wonder how the everyday "goy" (i.e. non-Jewish) employees -- who have
to work months to earn $5,000.00 -- would feel if they knew that's what
the companies are paying each rabbi to "work" (and I use that term
lightly) two days a year?  
  IMO, the rabbis should actually PAY THE COMPANIES to allow them
entrance into their places of business to snoop around. The rabbis ADD
NOTHING OF SUBSTANTIVE VALUE to products for well over 99% of these
products' consumers.
  Even the vast majority of Jews no longer follow kosher dietary laws.
  Imagine if, say, a Catholic priest demanded entrance to a food
factory and asked to be paid $5,000.00 a day so he could "bless" the
company's products? If the company paid him off as an act of
appeasement, the ACLU would be all over the case. 
  

>--
>Buddy K

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 13:34:33 PDT 1996
Article: 58596 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,can.general
Subject: Re: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"]
Date: 14 Jun 1996 13:42:12 GMT
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In <4pqe0e$il4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Steve
Bartman) writes: 
>
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>>In article <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, 
>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>
>>>In <4ph9r1$ka@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
>>>McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>>>>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being paid $5,000
>>>>per day as you claim.
>
>>>  You're not serious?
>
>>Yes, I am.
>
>>>  ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e.
from
>>>Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread.
There,
>>>it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!)
>
>>No, not fact. See below.
>
>>>  Bartman clearly stated that rabbis are paid $10,000.00 for their
>>>twice-yearly visits to food preparation facilities. See, $10,000.00
>>>divided by 2 = $5,000.00. Too complicated?
>
>>Sorry, but I don't think you are reading him correctly. The
>>fee is paid to an organization, for service rendered, not to
>>any rabbi - i.e. it is not a salary. 
>
>The "horse" is weighing in again. I left this thread days ago, and
>just peeked in. I find Chuckie still refusing to understand simple
>English. For clarity, Ken, (although I see that you already fully
>understand my former statements), I'll restate. I don't think Chuckie
>will get it, but I stopped caring about him last week.

  Which is why you came back to restate your inherently flawed thesis,
one supposes . . . :-)

>The fee (note, NOT salary)

  Oooooooooooh . . . BIG difference! (Not!) Heaven forbid a Jew should
receive a "salary"!
  Talk about pettiness!  
  Look, call it a "salary," call it a "fee" or call it a "knish": it
all comes down to the "certifying" rabbi putting $5,000.00 in his
wallet for walking around a food factory and snooping around quite
unnecessarily.
  Even YOU yourself, the former manager with Nabisco and apologist for
the liitle-known kosher tax, acknowledged that the food preparation
areas are ALWAYS kept in sanitary condition.
  So why the need for some rabbi to snoop around the place -- possibly
introducing MORE germs into the area -- at an incredible "fee" of
$5000,00. (which is your own figure) a day?
  And I know, the ten grand the rabbi receives for essentially doing
NOTHING to improve the food he "inspects" doesn't, of course, come out
of anyone's pocket . . . (And they say *I* don't understand economics!)

> is to the organization owning the kosher
>mark. (I believe they are FTC registered, although I can't say for
>certain.) The bid for the certification is by the organization, the
>mark is granted by the organization, the check to pay is cut 'pay to
>the order of' the organization, the organization dispatches rabbis to
>the plant at their discretion, requests by consumers about exactly
>what the mark means are routed to the organization.

  "The organization dispatches rabbis to the plant at their
discretion"? Kinda like a rabbinical SWAT Team, huh? I can just imagine
the scenario:

 "Uh, Rabbi Weinstein, we've got a problem at the Kraft Food factory 
 . ." 

 "10-4"
  
  "Looks like one of the goy food prep workers mistakenly added a
teaspoon of pork to the new instant ham 'n eggs mix . . . "

  "But Lt., you *said* 'ham 'n eggs mix,' right? . . . "

  "Look, Weinstein, there's no time to argue at a time like this . . .
I want your ass in that factory NOW! If you so much as smell a gram of
pork in that place, I want every line shut down till we can get
Goldfish and Kimmelstein out there in the morning . . . "

  "10-4, Lt."

  But gee, I never realized that being a "kosher-certifying" org was so
hard!
  Do these organizations which are charged with answering these
consumers' incessant requests for information maintain 24-hours-a-day
personnel to handle these consumer questions? I'm sure at least 500
people a day call to ask about those almost-invisible "U's" and "K's"
on the labels of their olives and pickles . . . 

> Not the rabbis
>calling on the plant. Is that clear enough?

  Actually, no.

>The organization could send one rabbi, two, ten, or one thousand, and
>the fee would be $10,000, exactly as bid. It is not salary to any
>individual. The main economic underpining of the fee is the
>reputation, history, and credibility of the organization has with
>consumers reading the mark at retail.

  You CAN'T be serious, Bartman? 
  I think we've established far, far beyond a doubt that 99% of
"consumers reading the mark at retail" have virtually NO IDEA what that
"U" or that "K" on the label even means!
  Again, Jews represent less than 1% of the consumer population. Of
this 1%, ONLY A TINY FRACTION FOLLOWS KOSHER DIETARY LAWS.
  So stop trying to justify the kosher tax on a false premise.

>This has been earned over many
>years, and has marketplace value.

  NOT!

> Basic economic theory, backed up by
>reams of studies,

  Such as . . . ?

> show that reputation has great economic value. When
>companies are sold for more than book value the difference is assumed
>to be the stored value of their brands and marks, and is entered on
>the books as "goodwill" and depreciated over ensuing years.

  Thanks for the evasive answer. What "stored value" are you talking
about? Only a tiny, tiny percentage of consumers even know what
"kosher" means, much less demand their food be marked as such.

> As I said before the kosher marks are EXACTLY the same as other marks
>in the world of packaged goods such as the Good Housekeeping Seal of
>Approval,

  NOT TRUE!

> the UL mark on electric devices,

  NOT TRUE!

>and the seal of the American Dental Society on Crest toothpaste.

  Again, NOT TRUE! I find it hard to believe that you actually believe
this yourself! Let me explain:
  The Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, the UL mark on electrical
devices and the American Dental Society seal on toothpase ensure
PRODUCT QUALITY and SAFETY.
  They are NOT there to proclaim that the products which bear them have
been "approved" by the officials (i.e. ministers or rabbis) of any
specific racial-religious group.

> All paid for after
>certain hurdles are cleared by the manufacturer, all with marketplace
>value to different groups of potential consumers.

  Yes, EVERONE -- ALL CONSUMERS, regardless of religion -- require
safe, effective products which serve the purposes for which they were
produced. 
  But *everyone* does not require their products to be "ok'd" by any
particular religious officials.
  Can you imagine the outcry, for example, if Catholics demanded that
matzos be "blessed" by Catholic priests -- who must be paid $5,0000. a
day "fees"? The ACLU would go nuts!

>If that doesn't make this "$5000 per day" crap stop my advice would be
>to ignore Chuckie. Every time you respond to his non-responses he
>spreads his brand of hate a little farther.

  Pitiful, really. Are you SO intimidated by those who point out the
questionable foundations of your position that you simply MUST resort
to the ad hominum style of argumentation? It merely illustrates the
essential poverty of your position, IMO.

>As a personal aside, I did get a chuckle out of something he said in
>an earlier thread (although I kill-filed him, people keep quoting
>him). 

  Such as, for one, you yourself . . . 

[deletia]
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 15:33:46 PDT 1996
Article: 22651 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: The notorious Karlo Takki's postal address
Date: 14 Jun 1996 14:39:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 14  9:39:02 AM CDT 1996

  Karlo Takki is a notorious New Age abuser of Net people on the Right.
He has disclosed personal information about me on the Internet because
I took the position that it's not proper for Jewish rabbis to receive
$10,000.00 for two days a year of snooping around food factories,
making a general nuisance of themselves and making sure -- how
important! (not!) -- that the food companies put no pork in their
products. 
  The following information is 100% PUBLICALLY-AVAILABLE on the
Internet.
  
ktakki@xensei2.xensei.com and ktakki@artcrime.com

Karlo Takki
P.O. Box 15238
Kenmore Station
Boston, Massachusetts 02215
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 18:08:55 PDT 1996
Article: 43245 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.activism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.radio.talk,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You TOO can pump gas, just like Ken McVay GSA!
Date: 14 Jun 1996 21:19:08 GMT
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In <4prs5t$dtr@liberator.concentric.net> "Ronald C. Schoedel"
 writes: 
>
>wekwek@wekwek.net (misha) wrote:
>>
>>Hey Ron idiot. How did a kid like you become like you are?
>>
>
>I became the way I am because of my persistence in folowing my
>dreams and working toward my personal goals, no matter how much
>work it takes. 

  It'd be nice if more folks had your can-do attitude these days,
instead of whining about how "discriminated-against" they are.  

> I became who I am by educating myself far be-
>yond today's average politically-correct brainwashed college
>student. 

  Frankly, tragically, not a very hard thing to do.
  
>I became who I am because of life experiences that
>have made me much wiser and stronger. 

  Life experience -- the *best* teacher!
  Reminds me of the late, famous "longshoreman-philosopher" Eric Hoffer
(author of the highly-acclaimed -- even in academia -- "The True
Believer") who, though he never even attended college, is much-envied
by so many "intellectuals" for his wisdom. 

> In short, because I
>seek to be the best a White man can be.  Because I strive for
>excellence, I continue to get closer and closer to all of my
>goals and dreams being fulfilled.

  Well, Black, White, whatever -- being the best person one can be is a
noble goal.

>Cheers,
>
>Rev. Ron
>
>http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 14 21:28:05 PDT 1996
Article: 22687 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
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Subject: Re: Censored Books -- Now Online
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[snip]
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> "If we let abortion be the threshold issue of
> Republicanism, we need our head examined."
>
>          GOP National Chairman Haley Barbour                     
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

  "If we let abortion be the threshold issue of
  Republicanism, we need our back patted."

           Usenet National Champion JoeBuck
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 15 10:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 43361 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: JOEBUGS Bogus "Canadian Economists" ["Kosher Tax"]
Date: 14 Jun 1996 22:19:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4ps25s$mne@nazikor.sieg-heil.bc.ca> kmcOyvay@nazikor.almanac.bc.ca
(Ken McOyVay OBC) writes: 
>
>In article <4pqe0e$il4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, 
>sbartman@ix.netcom.com (Der Bartmann) wrote:

>You have yet to demonstrate that rabbis are being 
>        paid $5,000 per day as you claim.

[deletia]

You're not serious? . . . 

[deletia]

ONCE AGAIN: that figure is right from the "horse's mouth," i.e. from
Steve Bartman of Nabisco, who has participated in this thread. There,
it's documented! (For the nth time, in fact!)

[deletia]

>[We now return you to the current thread, wherein Mr. Bartman
>comments upon Joebuck's deliberate misrepresentation]

  Now, this is cute. After I literally quoted the figure ("$10,000.00 a
day for two kosher cerification visits a year") that Bartmann gave, you
accuse me of "misrepresentation." Shame on you!

[deletia]

>>The fee (note, NOT salary) is to the organization owning the kosher
>>mark. 

  And AGAIN I state: call it a "fee," call it a "salary" or call it a
"V-8," it all comes down to the same thing: a rabbi drops by a food
factory to "certify" its products and walks out a few hours later with
a $5,000.00 check from the company -- er, from the 99% of
non-kosher-following consumers, that is.
  Really, it does appear that you're in chronic "denial" regarding this
-- which is quite ironic for someone who spends as much time as you do
criticizing, perhaps justifiably, the "Holocaust deniers" -- or
phenomenally dishonest. Which is it?

>believe they are FTC registered, although I can't say for
>>certain.) The bid for the certification is by the organization, the
>>mark is granted by the organization, the check to pay is cut 'pay to
>>the order of' the organization, the organization dispatches rabbis to
>>the plant at their discretion, 

  "The organization dispatches rabbis to the plant at their discretion
 . . " 
  Wow! A veritable rabbinical SWAT Team!:
  "Don't worry, Mr. Bartmann, we'll get that factory kosher if it's the
last thing we do . . . "
  Rabbi speaking into megaphone outside the food plant: "We know it's
-- the pork's -- in there. Come out with your ham hocks up." :-)

>requests by consumers about exactly
>>what the mark means are routed to the organization. Not the rabbis
>>calling on the plant. Is that clear enough?

  And what do the kosher-certifying organizations tell inquiring
consumers? Something like, "Listen here, Mr. Goy Questioner, are you
some kind of anti-semite or something? How DARE you ask how much our
rabbis are paid to "certify" your food as kosher! Just pay the higher
food prices and shut up, you obvious Neo-Nazi!"
  Actually, something like this actually happened (see this thread a
few days ago) when someone contacted a kosher certifying group and
asked how much it receives from food companies for its services. The
spokesperson answered, and I quote, "From several thousand to several
hundred thousand dollars a year."
  Personally, I tend to go with the "several hundred thousand dollars a
year" figure . . . otherwise the spokesman for the kosher organization
probably wouldn't have ever mentioned it.  

>It certainly is - to you and I, and to normal readers. It is
>also quite clear to Joebuck, but he won't admit it. Doesn't
>suit the agenda, you see.

>>The organization could send one rabbi, two, ten, or one thousand, and
>>the fee would be $10,000, exactly as bid. It is not salary to any
>>individual. The main economic underpining of the fee is the
>>reputation, history, and credibility of the organization has with
>>consumers reading the mark at retail. This has been earned over many
>>years, and has marketplace value.

   Receiving a "kosher" mark DOES NOT SUBSTANTIVELY IMPROVE A PRODUCT
IN ANY WAY. In fact, the FDA should look into thisif the kosher
certifying groups are making any such claims that such a mark DOES
provide substantive, observable improvements to a product.
  Thus, it's all a scam, an unjustifiable "tax," a "racket," subsidized
by the over 99% of consumers who don't follow a kosher diet. Which 
includes, incidentally, the vast majority of Jews themselves these
days.

> Basic economic theory, backed up by
>>reams of studies, show that reputation has great economic value.

  What "basic economic theory"? What "reams of studies"? Citations,
please.
  Adam Smith basically urges consumers in a free market to follow the
"caveat emptor"-- "buyer beware!" -- rule. You seem to find such a view
disagreeable. Why? Could it be, Der Bartmann, that, as a Kraft/Nabisco
managerial-level employee for so many years, you still identify more
with the mindset of management than the consumers? You really ought to
do some self-reflection.
  Kinda reminds me of the tobacco companies' well-paid lackeys who spew
the "company line" that smoking isn't dangerous.
  
>> As I said before the kosher marks are EXACTLY the same as other
marks
>>in the world of packaged goods such as the Good Housekeeping Seal of
>>Approval, the UL mark on electric devices, and the seal of the
>>American Dental Society on Crest toothpaste.

  Not at all.
  Having one of THOSE marks (e.g. the "UL" mark) indicates that the
product has passed a safety test -- a real, substantive benefit that
most consumers would be glad to pay extra for. OTOH, you, yourself,
acknowledged that being "kosher" doesn't make a product "better" in any
observable way.

>All paid for after
>>certain hurdles are cleared by the manufacturer, all with marketplace
>>value to different groups of potential consumers.

  It's been exhaustively demonstrated that only tiny fraction of 1% of
consumers have any idea what being "kosher" specifically involves, much
less follow it's rules.

[deletia]

>Actually, it doesn't spread the hate, it spreads the exposure
>of Klan-inspired stupidity,

  Opposing the kosher-certification racket on purely economic grounds =
being "Klan-inspired," according to this mentality.
  Ironically, such immature attitudes do more to engender TRUE
anti-semitsism than to diminish it.

>and it permits me to collect
>sufficient material for the thread files as to spread that
>exposure even more widely, over a much longer period of time.

  Please continue to do so. 
  Maintaining such "dossiers" on those who disagree with you or have
the "audacity" to criticize Israel, etc. is very illustrative of the
arrogant mind-set of you and your born--again Nazi Nizkorers.
  As that Israeli critic -- himself Jewish -- has written of just such
hypocrisy, "The Nazis have died and been reborn as late-20th-Century
Jews." 

[deletia]

>Note that Joebucky speaks Yiddish ("McOyVay," as you know, is
>secret Yiddish code for "white power rangers are uneducated,
>unlettered buffoons"), and is probably a ZOG-USA plant. This
>is textbook stuff, after all. 

  Disagree with such people, and you're an "uneducated, unlettered" goy
"white power ranger." 

[deletia]

The Nazikorps Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource for the Spread of Anti-Semitism
   [Ftp] http://www.almanac.sieg-hiel.com/cgi-bin/ 
    [Europe] ftp://nazikorps.com.de/pub/hypocrites/  
http://www.almanac.iou.ca/ (Under de-construction -
permanently!)......unlearn

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 15 10:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 43384 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,can.general,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 14 Jun 1996 23:46:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <31C1DAB2.62C3@unb.ca> Keith Morrison  writes: 
>
>Charles wrote:
>
>>   For about the fifth time, please go back to former Nabisco manager
>> Steve Bartman's posts of a week or so ago, in which he explicitly
>> acknowledged (approvingly) that his former employer paid a rabbi
>> $10,000.00 a year to visit a factory two days a year and look
around.
>> Now, divide $10,000.00 by two. Whattya get? $5,000.00. DUH!
>>   Really, if you find offense in calling this money a "salary,"
fine,
>> then call it a "fee." Whatever it is, it costs $5,000.00 a day.

[deleted]

>>   "Salary" or "fee" . . . IMO, it's all semantics. So, if it makes
you
>> happy, call it a fee. Just make sure you get the figure right, which
is
>> $10,000.00 for two day's work.
>
>As opposed to someone like Oliver North who might make $10 000 for
>a one-hour speech?

  As far as I know, no religious group forces anyone to pay Oliver
North $10,000. per one-hour speech in order to eat.

[deleted]

>Keith Morrison

t0ke8o@unb.ca

  "Morrison," huh . . . ? I'll be nice and just assume that your
inability to think clearly is due to drug use . . . is it?
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 15 13:54:33 PDT 1996
Article: 43485 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,can.general,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 15 Jun 1996 15:56:23 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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[deletia]

>I shall order the ZOG rescue crew to monitor your vital life signs -
>and to give you an infusion of chicken soup with matzoh balls if your
>continued existence in this world becomes doubtful.  It will be good
>for the ZOG rescue crew, because they are as lonely as the proverbial
>Maytag repairman.
>
>You're welcome.
>
>hro

  Chicken soup w/matzo balls . . . mmmmmmmmmm! You obviously realize
that the way to an "anti-semite's" (which I'm not, btw) heart is
through his stomach.
  Come to think of it, too, I actually have a can of matzo ball soup in
my cupboard that I've been planning to heat up, and I'd thoroughly
enjoy the delish excuse to compare it with the ZOG recipe . . . but
first, I'm gonna finish off that lox I picked up the other day . . .
(seriously!)
  You're such a mensch, Hilary! :-)
  

>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 15 15:11:19 PDT 1996
Article: 59049 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 15 Jun 1996 19:55:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <834862213snz@augur.demon.co.uk> Caesar 
writes: 
>
>In article <4pt6ob$lvp@liberator.concentric.net>
>           schoedel@alaska.net "Ronald C. Schoedel" writes:
>
>> kathleen@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:
>> 
>> >I buy items with a 'K' or a 'U' on it.  So does my entire family. 
I also 
>> >buy non-kosher, but take comfort in knowing that the kosher food
has been 
>> >inspected.
>> 
>> Inspected for what?  Is this an inspection that bears some great
>> significance for anyone other than a small religious cult?
>
>I don't think 20 million people are a "small" group.
>
>> 
  "20 million" *what*, exactly? If you're saying that there are 20
million Jews in the US, you're way, way off. 
  Jews are less than 1% of the population. Only a miniscule % of THEM
even keep kosher.
  No one would mind if mass "kosher certification" was economically
justifiable. But it isn't -- it's done mereley for *political* reasons.
("Political" in the most general sense of the term.)  

>> Rev. Ron
>> 
>> http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel

>from Caesar
>Caesar@augur.demon.co.uk
>----------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 15 17:11:31 PDT 1996
Article: 43511 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 15 Jun 1996 19:55:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 40
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In <834862213snz@augur.demon.co.uk> Caesar 
writes: 
>
>In article <4pt6ob$lvp@liberator.concentric.net>
>           schoedel@alaska.net "Ronald C. Schoedel" writes:
>
>> kathleen@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:
>> 
>> >I buy items with a 'K' or a 'U' on it.  So does my entire family. 
I also 
>> >buy non-kosher, but take comfort in knowing that the kosher food
has been 
>> >inspected.
>> 
>> Inspected for what?  Is this an inspection that bears some great
>> significance for anyone other than a small religious cult?
>
>I don't think 20 million people are a "small" group.
>
>> 
  "20 million" *what*, exactly? If you're saying that there are 20
million Jews in the US, you're way, way off. 
  Jews are less than 1% of the population. Only a miniscule % of THEM
even keep kosher.
  No one would mind if mass "kosher certification" was economically
justifiable. But it isn't -- it's done mereley for *political* reasons.
("Political" in the most general sense of the term.)  

>> Rev. Ron
>> 
>> http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel

>from Caesar
>Caesar@augur.demon.co.uk
>----------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 15 17:11:34 PDT 1996
Article: 43527 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 15 Jun 1996 04:59:26 GMT
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In <4pt6ob$lvp@liberator.concentric.net> "Ronald C. Schoedel"
 writes: 
>
>kathleen@teleport.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:
>
>>I buy items with a 'K' or a 'U' on it.  So does my entire family.  I
also 
>>buy non-kosher, but take comfort in knowing that the kosher food has
been 
>>inspected.
>
>Inspected for what?  Is this an inspection that bears some great
>significance for anyone other than a small religious cult?
>
>Rev. Ron
>
>http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel
>
>
  Ron, no sense in arguing with this "useful idiot."
  I fully understand why someone like McOyVay would kick and scream
when some lowly "goys" (i.e. non-Jews) point out several basic facts
which they're unable to respond to with honest, well-reasoned
argumentation.
 OTOH, apparently little Miss Naivete above, to parahrase her, "takes
comfort in knowing that" she's paid too much for the food she buys.
  Really, Christians ought to begin demanding that THEIR ordained
religious leaders, such as priests and ministers, be given special
passes of the kinds the rabbis possess so they, too, can enter food
factories, snoop around for a few hours, "climb all over equipment" as
Der Bartmann put it :-) and walk away with $5,000.00 more in their
wallets than they had when they arrived.
  Heck, a rabbi in a Planter's peanut factory has a better chance of
"hitting it big" than the typical lounge lizard in an Atlantic City
casino.
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 08:40:11 PDT 1996
Article: 43596 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish - Read it and weep.
Date: 16 Jun 1996 02:43:12 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <4pvsc0$qmv@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4pnk7c$q36@news.usaor.net> <4ptoh7$2n5@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4pviig$kmq@newserv.ksu.ksu.edu>
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[confusing attributions deleted]
>
>>In <4pnk7c$q36@news.usaor.net> mckinney@usaor.net (Ian McKinney)
>>writes: 
>>>
>>>I heard not long ago on this group several persons moaning about the
>>>claim that Bolshevism was primarily a Jewish movement. Oh, I know
it's
>>>"hate" they say to mention anything derogatory about God's master
>>>race. Totally without truth they will tell you. Well, fortunately
>>>there were more than a few who happened to be in Russia in 1917 and
>>>actually saw what so many today want to deny. I'll provide facts to
>>>back-up my claims.
>>>
>>>I'll bypass the well known fact that Karl Marx was a Jew. That can
be
>>>discovered in any library. Let's see the lovers of the Jews deny
>>>diplomatic cables that passed between American representatives and
>>>Washington D.C. during that time, and are available from the U.S.
>>>Archives.
>>>
>>>State Department document 861.00 /1757 sent May 2, 1918 by U.S.
consul
>>>general in Moscow, Summers:
>>>
>>>"Jews prominant in local Soviet government, anti-Jewish feeling
>>>growing among population...."
>>>
>>>
>>>State Department document 861.00 / 2205 was sent from Vladivostok on
>>>July 5, 1918 by U.S. consul Caldwell:
>>>
>>>"Fifty percent of Soviet government in each town consists of Jews of
>>>the worst type."
>>>
>>>
>>>From the Headquarters of the American Expeditionary Forces, Siberia
on
>>>March 1, 1919, comes this telegram from Omsk by Chief of Staff,
>>>Captain Montgomey Shuyler:
>>>
>>>"It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States but
the
>>>Bolshevik movement is and has been since it's beginning guided and
>>>controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type."
>>>
>>>
>>>A second Schuyler telegram, dated June 9, 1919 from Vladivostok,
>>>reports:
>>>
>>>"...(T)here were 384 'commissars' including 2 negroes, 13 Russians,
15
>>>Chinamen, 22 Armenians, and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter
number,
>>>264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of
>>>the Imperial Government."
>>>
>>>Attention all liars - Read 'em and weep.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

JoeBuck solely wrote this: 

>>[As a matter of fact, didn't Brooklyn-raised Vladimir Pozner and
>>family move to the Soviet Union that way, after coming to America?
>>  Of course, Pozner would later go on to become the USSR's poster-boy
>>spewer of propaganda, which the liberal/leftist Western media ate up.
>>Imagine, a Russian Communist who speaks English with a New York City
>>accent!
>>  In recent years, Pozner has been a co-host with Phil Donohue on yet
>>another tv talk show. Problem is, I can't figure out who's further to
>>the left, ex-Soviet aparachnik Pozner or Donohue!]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Richard Harrold wrote this:

>But please explain something. If this is true, then why did so many
>Jews want to leave the Soviet Union?


JoeBuck replied with this:

  Your point is well-taken.
  Personally, even though Marx was, indeed, Jewish, I myself wouldn't
call Communism a "Jewish" theory. I just don't see any important
connection between Marx being a Jew and Communism. This isn't to deny
that Jews have been very "over-represented," strictly numerically
speaking, among the legions of Russian (and German) Communists. 
  Many, in fact, have read Marx's "The German Ideology" and came away
with the belief that Marx, himself, was genuinely anti-semitic. (The
whole notion of the "self-hating Jew," etc.)
  BTW, I merely followed-up to the original post by Mr. McKinney. (I've
placed what I actually wrote between brackets -- see above)

> Why weren't they allowed to
>practice their faith in their own country if Communisim is so
>intertwined with Judaism? 

  Good point.

>And why isn't it possible to explain those U.S. consulate reports as
>mere anti-semitism held by the authors of those reports?
>
>Was Lenin a Jew?

  No -- good point.

>Trotsky was, but Lenin had him murdered.

  Actually, it was Stalin who ordered the assassination of Trotsky. But
Stalin, too, was not Jewish, so your point is still valid.

>Was Stalin a Jew?

  Good point.

>How about Brezhnev? Or Khruschev?

  Ditto.

>Mao was a communist. Is he Jewish?

  Well, he did eat a lot of Chinese food . . . :-)

> And what about Cho En Li? Or Ho Chi Mihn?

>How about Che Gueverra?

  Another goy.

[deleted]

>
>Richard Harrold <1163@nethawk.com>
>staff writer, Morning Sun, Mt. Pleasant, MI
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 08:40:12 PDT 1996
Article: 43622 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish - Read it and weep.
Date: 15 Jun 1996 07:25:27 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <4ptoh7$2n5@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4pnk7c$q36@news.usaor.net>
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In <4pnk7c$q36@news.usaor.net> mckinney@usaor.net (Ian McKinney)
writes: 
>
>I heard not long ago on this group several persons moaning about the
>claim that Bolshevism was primarily a Jewish movement. Oh, I know it's
>"hate" they say to mention anything derogatory about God's master
>race. Totally without truth they will tell you. Well, fortunately
>there were more than a few who happened to be in Russia in 1917 and
>actually saw what so many today want to deny. I'll provide facts to
>back-up my claims.
>
>I'll bypass the well known fact that Karl Marx was a Jew. That can be
>discovered in any library. Let's see the lovers of the Jews deny
>diplomatic cables that passed between American representatives and
>Washington D.C. during that time, and are available from the U.S.
>Archives.
>
>State Department document 861.00 /1757 sent May 2, 1918 by U.S. consul
>general in Moscow, Summers:
>
>"Jews prominant in local Soviet government, anti-Jewish feeling
>growing among population...."
>
>
>State Department document 861.00 / 2205 was sent from Vladivostok on
>July 5, 1918 by U.S. consul Caldwell:
>
>"Fifty percent of Soviet government in each town consists of Jews of
>the worst type."
>
>
>From the Headquarters of the American Expeditionary Forces, Siberia on
>March 1, 1919, comes this telegram from Omsk by Chief of Staff,
>Captain Montgomey Shuyler:
>
>"It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States but the
>Bolshevik movement is and has been since it's beginning guided and
>controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type."
>
>
>A second Schuyler telegram, dated June 9, 1919 from Vladivostok,
>reports:
>
>"...(T)here were 384 'commissars' including 2 negroes, 13 Russians, 15
>Chinamen, 22 Armenians, and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter number,
>264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of
>the Imperial Government."
>
>Attention all liars - Read 'em and weep.
>
  As a matter of fact, didn't Brooklyn-raised Vladimir Pozner and
family move to the Soviet Union that way, after coming to America?
  Of course, Pozner would later go on to become the USSR's poster-boy
spewer of propaganda, which the liberal/leftist Western media ate up.
Imagine, a Russian Communist who speaks English with a New York City
accent!
  In recent years, Pozner has been a co-host with Phil Donohue on yet
another tv talk show. Problem is, I can't figure out who's further to
the left, ex-Soviet aparachnik Pozner or Donohue!
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 08:40:12 PDT 1996
Article: 43673 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 15 Jun 1996 16:35:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4puooc$d05@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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In <4pubbi$95q@liberator.concentric.net> "Ronald C. Schoedel"
 writes: 
>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>>  Ron, no sense in arguing with this "useful idiot."
>>  I fully understand why someone like McOyVay would kick and scream
>>when some lowly "goys" (i.e. non-Jews) point out several basic facts
>>which they're unable to respond to with honest, well-reasoned
>>argumentation.
>
>I fully understand why he kicks and screams too...if someone actually
>deposes jewish authority, McOyVay is out of the only thing that has
>ever given him any sense of self-worth, his Binkor Project or
whatever.
>Seems pumping gas at age 55 isn't enough for him, go figure....
>
>>  Heck, a rabbi in a Planter's peanut factory has a better chance of
>>"hitting it big" than the typical lounge lizard in an Atlantic City
>>casino.
>
>Very true.  Hey, I'd be content to go to factories for FREE, if they'd
>put my religious symbols on their packaging.  If the kosher symbols
>are being printed for the benefit of jewish food-buyers, then it seems
>to me jews should be doing the inspection for free, since it's for
>their own people. 

  Absolutely. especially in light of the fact that such "kosher
certification" does not substantively do anything to improve the
product whatsoever.
  I'd love for someone who claims kosher certification improves a
product to take a blindfolded "taste test" of expensive "kosher
certified" vs. less-expensive non-"kosher-certified" food. Think they'd
be able to tell the difference? Not! 

> But then again, jews, do anything for free, out of
>genuine love and concern?  HA HA HA HA HA HA!  Silly me, what was I
>thinking!

  Well, there undoubtedly ARE many such Jews around. I've met a few and
it's been a pleasure to know them.
  At the same time, it's undeniable that Jews -- due to historic
persecution or other factors -- are among the most selfish people in
the world. In fact, Ayn Rand, the Jewish emigre from Russia (sorry
Hilary), actually wrote a book titled, "The Virtue of Selfishness," in
fact.  
  Of course, many who've had little contact with Jews will be offended
by such a statement. It's easy to get into that "heroic" mode and
defensively start accusing people of being "anti-semitic" for saying
such obvious truths -- especially when the "heroes" themselves have
known very few Jews personally. 

>Rev. Ron
>
>http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 08:40:13 PDT 1996
Article: 43727 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!nntp.uac.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!insync!uuneo.neosoft.com!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 15 Jun 1996 16:40:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 46
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In <4pul6c$3j5@news1.io.org> alec@gryn.org@  (Alec Grynspan) writes: 
>
>In <4ptfve$js4@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com
(Charles) writes:
>
>>  Ron, no sense in arguing with this "useful idiot."
>>  I fully understand why someone like McOyVay would kick and scream
>>when some lowly "goys" (i.e. non-Jews) point out several basic facts
>>which they're unable to respond to with honest, well-reasoned
>>argumentation.
>
>The reason that they are "unable to respond" is because every time
that
>they do, you seem to suddenly turn blind.
>
>Please post where Bartman said that the Rabbi received $10,000.

  Look, I'm not about to do your research for you.
  Go back and review the postings in the above newsgroups for the past
two weeks. It's all there.

>Since he didn't, you are a liar.

  No, you are a lazy troller who expects others do do his research for
him. pay me $5,000.00 and I'll be happy do do the work meself. ;-)

[deletia]

>>  Really, Christians ought to begin demanding that THEIR ordained
>>religious leaders, such as priests and ministers, be given special
>>passes of the kinds the rabbis possess so they, too, can enter food
>>factories, snoop around for a few hours, "climb all over equipment"
>>as Der Bartmann put it :-) and walk away with $5,000.00 more in their
>>wallets than they had when they arrived.
>
>Please provide the name of a single Rabbi who walked away with $5,000
>more in his pocket than when he arrived to inspect the plant.

  Ask Bartman, the former Kraft/Nabisco manager, that question. He's
the one who made the original statement. DUH!

[deletia]
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 09:38:39 PDT 1996
Article: 59190 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 15 Jun 1996 19:45:54 GMT
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[deletia]

>By the way, I bought kosher peanut butter today. It was the
>least expensive of all the brands in the market.

  Hope this doesn't ruin your appetite, but that's only because some
flu-smitten rabbi insisted *that* was the day he'd do his "kosher
certification" shtick at the factory and "earn" his $5,000.00 "fee."
  From what I heard, he actually sneezed right into the batch of peanut
butter that your jar came from! :-)


>-- 
The Nazikorps Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource for the Promotion of Anti-Semitism
    [Ftp] http://www.almanac.goy.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nazizkorps.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nazizkorps/  
http://www.kosher.pareve.bc.ca/ (Under deconstruction -
permanently!)......unlearn

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 09:38:41 PDT 1996
Article: 59293 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.conspiracy.jfk
Subject: Re: How do feel about our govt. killing JFK?
Date: 15 Jun 1996 16:10:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4punah$hk7@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ptjv1$5vo@newshost.cyberramp.net>
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In <4ptjv1$5vo@newshost.cyberramp.net> robert@cyberramp.net (Robert)
writes: 
>
>Have things changed? Do you demand what you should from
>your "representatives". Should we support and trust our
>"allies", inside the US and out? Specter, Johnson, Nixon,
>etc. ....bastards.
>

  Undoubtedly, Specter, Johnson and Nixon ARE and WERE "bastards," as
you write. That has nothing directly to do with the JFK assassination,
however, even though they all benefited (like the opportunists they
were/are) from this tragic event.
  Look, the most likely scenario is that Lee Harvey Oswald -- a
self-proclaimed Communist who renounced his US citizenship before
settling down in the Nazi-like, pogrom-istic USSR for a coupla years --
killed JFK.
  Read the book "Conspiracy of One," written by a former believer in
the conspiracy thesis.
  I don't recommend the Posner book because I believe its author a. is
intellectually dishonest -- i.e. he's been damningly accused of lying
about alleged interviews that formed the background of his book, and
he's never satisfactorily refuted these accusations, I think most would
agree; and b. he's just too tied-in (an understatement, to be sure)
with his US and foreign intelligence-community sources (see his other,
intelligence-related books for what I mean.)
  David Belin, who's been studying the case since the time of the
Warren Commision, has also written a good book on the case which
provides a more balanced view of the assassination than most.
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 09:38:43 PDT 1996
Article: 59399 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" KKK fraud
Date: 16 Jun 1996 03:01:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4pvk37$co4@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken
McVay OBC) writes: 
>
>In article <4pv4f5$nn1@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, 
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
>
>>  No one would mind if mass "kosher certification" was economically
>>justifiable. But it isn't -- it's done mereley for *political*
reasons.
>>("Political" in the most general sense of the term.)  
>
>Work with me on this, er, "joebug,"

  Well, for $5,000.00 I'll give you eight hours, no more. Deal?

> and explain how the
>potential addition of 6-8 million extra customers is not
>"economically justifiable." 

  "6-8 million extra customers"? Now THAT'S funny!
   Try to follow this: What percentage of the US and Canadian
populations is Jewish? Less than 1%, right? Okay, let's say a *full*
1%. (I realize you'd love the opportunity to engage in a distracting
argument over the 1% or -1% figure, so let's just accept the highest
possible figure.)
  Now, just a tiny, tiny percentage of that 1% keeps kosher. But, to
appease you, let's say 50% of US and Canadian Jews follow kosher
dietary laws. (Knowing full well that that figure is laughably high.)
  Okay, what's the combined population of Canada and the United States?
  Now get a calculator and do the math.
  Got the answer? Good.
  I think the validity of my point is clear, and most unprejudiced
people who don't have a hidden agenda -- as you do -- would agree that
the 6-8 million figure is ridiculously innaccurate.
  
[deleted]
>
>-- 
The Nazikorps Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational
Resource for the Promotion of Ant-semitism
    [Ftp] http://www.goyish.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
    [Europe] ftp://nazikorps.i-am.uni-bomb.de/pub/nazikorps/  
http://www.manic.bc.ca/ (Under deconstruction -
permanently!)......unlearn

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 12:21:19 PDT 1996
Article: 391575 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.cc.nctu.edu.tw!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.guns
Subject: Re: #Clinton Calls for Fight Against 'forces of hatred'
Date: 15 Jun 1996 20:38:40 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 120
Message-ID: <4pv70g$l97@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31c18d9d.4871843@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <31C2E29F.41DE@rt66.com>
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In <31C2E29F.41DE@rt66.com> Cy Stanton  writes: 
>
>Jim Kennemur wrote:
>> 
>> Clinton Calls for Fight Against 'forces of hatred'
>> 
>> John King of  The Associated Press, June 14, 1996.
>> 
>> GREELEYVILLE, S.C. - President Clinton promised more federal help
>> to investigate arson fires at Southern black churches but said
>> Wednesday any lasting solution rested on Americans reaching across
>> racial lines to "show the forces of hatred they cannot win."
>> 
>> Clinton chided Republican critics who said his visit to one of
>> the arson sites was little more than a campaign stunt. The president
>> contended it was the GOP that was politicizing the issue.
>> 
>> And several black leaders rebuked Clinton's GOP critics, who
included
>> Republican National Committee Chairman Haley Barbour, House Majority
>> Leader Dick Armey of Texas and South Carolina Gov. David Beasley.
>
>AND LOUIS FARRIKAHN (sp).  Let's not forget Calipso Louie,

That "Calipso Louie" thing . . . ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Both
Louie, Louie and Belafonte started out as calypso entertainers. Wonder
if they ever played on the same stage? But seriously, Farrakhan does
make some sense in what he says, occasionally.)

> who also said that Clinton was only engaging in election year
>politics.  I haven't heard anyone rebuking him.
>
>> Richard Allen Leonard, a South Carolina African Methodist Episcopal
>> Church elder, said those questioning Clinton's motives were "mean
>> and cruel and spiteful people" who did not want racial harmony.
>
>So, if we question anything Clinton does, or his 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>pure-as-the-driven-snow motives, we're cruel and spiteful people?  I 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>think it's more likely people like those who were paranoid of Clarence
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Thomas' visit to a school because he's a (gasp) conservative, who 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>don't want racial harmony.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[deleted]

>> "We must keep this out of politics," Clinton said, praising the
>> bipartisan effort in Congress to pass legislation making it
>> easier to prosecute such arsons.
>
>Bipartisan, eh?  In otherwords, the mean, cruel, hateful Republicans
>are supporting legislation making it easier to prosecute such arsons? 
>Say it isn't so!
> 
>> Barbour renewed the debate later Wednesday in calling the
>president's trip "shameless, transparent politics."
>
>That's pretty similar to what Calipso Louie said about it too; and he 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>sure isn't a Republican.  Never mind that they're all correct.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>> Clinton, responding at a later news conference, said the Republicans
>> were "turning into politics what is a very serious matter," and
>> that does not serve the country well.
>
>Oh, sure....Republicans are playing politics and he's not.  Sheesh.
> 
>> Recalling his own upbringing in Arkansas during the days of
>> segregation and then the civil rights movement, Clinton delivered an
>> emotional appeal in South Carolina for racial and religious
tolerance.
>
>  Yeah, he also said "I have vivid and painful memories of black
>churches being burned in my state when I was a child."  Funny, the 
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^
>Arkansas state historian, the president of the Arkansas NAACP and the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>former president of the Regular Arkansas Baptist Convention don't 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>share President Clinton's "vivid and painful memories" of Arkansas 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>church burnings. As we now know, John Ferguson, the director of the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Arkansas History Commission said, "I've never known of a black church 
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>being burned in Arkansas."  Yet somehow, Bill Clinton has "vivid and 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>painful memories" of this happening (presumably more than once since
>he used the plural "churches.")  Perhaps his "vivid memories" occurred
>while he wasn't inhaling?        
>  My point isn't the fact that Clinton is a pathalogical liar; that's
>been established.  My point is that, whether you want to believe it or
>not, Clinton is, in fact, pandering to the black community on this
>issue and the Republicans (and Calipso Louie) are 100 percent correct.
> 
>> "Every house of worship in America must be a sacred place," Clinton
>> said. "Any place where people gather to worship according to the
>> dictates of their conscience should be protected from violence."

[deleted]

>Cheers, Cy
>-- 
>       _/_/_/_/_/_/  _/  _/_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/_/ 
_/_/_/_/_/
>        _/      _/  _/     _/           _/      _/      _/  _/
>       _/      _/  _/     _/           _/      _/      _/  _/
>      _/      _/  _/     _/           _/      _/      _/  _/_/_/_/_/
>     _/      _/  _/     _/           _/      _/      _/          _/   
>    _/      _/  _/     _/           _/      _/      _/          _/
> _/_/_/_/_/_/  _/     _/           _/      _/_/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/_/
>Evidence Refutes Liberalism. Dittoheads: http://www.rt66.com/~stantonc

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell an Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 13:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 43867 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white.power
Subject: Re: Anti-semitic lies that idiots keep harping on
Date: 16 Jun 1996 19:29:34 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4q1nau$otq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4q03ke$k2o@xensei3.xensei.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:43867 alt.politics.nationalism.white:22954 alt.conspiracy:59468

In <4q03ke$k2o@xensei3.xensei.com> ktakki@artcrime.com (Karlo Takki)
writes: 
>
>In article <4prk5p$cfe@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes:
>
>> In <4pqmoa$rum@xensei3.xensei.com> ktakki@artcrime.com (Karlo Takki)
>> writes: 

>> >Clueless.  Totally clueless.
>> 
  Well, "tacky" you certainly are . . . ;-)

Karlo Takki
(617) 254-7969 voice
(617) 254-3525 fax

P.O. Box 15238
Kenmore Station
Boston, MA 02215

ktakki@xensei2.xensei.com
ktakki@artcrime.com 
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 14:08:22 PDT 1996
Article: 59482 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.fan.rush.limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: How many white churches burned down?
Date: 16 Jun 1996 20:10:21 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <4q1pnd$qi9@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <4po2ot$qd@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pqen9$agl@news03.deltanet.com> <4pt6cs$puj@news.wco.com> 
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In  repost@repost.org (Remember Vince) writes: 
>
>Gizmo@theloonybin.com wrote:
>
>>	Why does it possible matter what the % of white to black, black
to
>>white churches being burned ? Or which race or color the
>
>Because our President said that he 'had vivid memories from his
childhood
>of Black churches being burned down in his State'  and that this
racism
>against blacks must be stopped.
>
>Plus assorted comments from others of this ilk.
>
>I also believe that churches must not be burnt down, but I am
horrified to see
>what looks to be, at best, an anti-Christian series of incidents
turned into a
>race issue.
>
>I'm also deeply concerned about racist remarks, and the above remarks
by
>Bill Clinton and other leaders are racist, and were made for no other
reason
>then to stir racial hatred.
>
>>perpetrator(s) are, we should only be concerned with catching the
>>criminal(s) and prosecuting  them to the fullest extent of the laws
>
>The above statements, knowlingly and falsely made, are in my
>opinion criminal.  Slander and racist comments made by political
>figures, especially der Fuerher, I mean, der Clinton, must not be 
>allowed.  The german people thought that there was no harm in
>racist statements made by their leader, and we know the result
>of that.

  One of those wacko homosexual groups invaded our beloved St.
Patrick's Cathedral in New York City a few years ago and disrupted the
house of worship's religous services. Hundreds of Catholic worshippers
were intimidated and felt very much threatened by these sickos -- the
liberals' very own AIDS-infected "angry-white-males.' 
  Where were the liberal media and the opportunistic, hypocritical
Clintonistas THEN?
  Rather than denounce this act of domestic terrorism and religious
persecution, they focused on how Catholics and other Christian
supporters of religious freedom and other civil rights "over-reacted"
to the invasion.

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 14:08:25 PDT 1996
Article: 59483 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Austria leads censorship route
Date: 16 Jun 1996 20:17:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 135
Message-ID: <4q1q4a$2fg@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q1gjk$1vpi@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>
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Forwarded message follows:


In <4q1gjk$1vpi@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M
Huber) writes: 
>
>Date: Friday, 31-May-96 01:04 PM
>
>From: [FA]
>Subject: Electronic Frontiers Australia Press Release - NSW
legislation
>
>INTERNET CENSORSHIP LEGISLATION LEAKED
>
>Despite an uproar online and enquiries from the media, the NSW
>Attorney-General's office has not yet released their draft Internet
>censorship legislation.  A copy has, however, been leaked to
Electronic
>Frontiers Australia (Inc.).
>
>"I was promised a copy of the draft legislation on Monday", said EFA's
>Sydney spokesperson Danny Yee, "but on Tuesday was told it wasn't
going 
>to
>be made available.  Having seen the leaked version, I am not surprised

>they
>are unwilling to release it.  It confirms our worst fears about the
>government's intentions."
>
>The legislation derives from a consultation paper based on a 1994
report 
>on
>Bulletin Boards - a paper which has been widely criticised. Among
other
>weaknesses, it assumes that 'on-line services' are owned and
controlled 
>by a
>single 'service provider'.  In the following quotes 'on-line service' 
>has
>been replaced by 'Internet'.
>
>The legislation has two major parts.  The first makes it a crime to
>'transmit objectionable (RC or X-rated) material on the Internet' or
for 
>'an
>Internet service provider (ISP) to permit objectionable material to be
>available for access or retrieval by users of the Internet.' The
second
>makes it illegal for a person to transmit or advertise material 
>unsuitable
>for minors to a minor, or for an ISP to 'permit material unsuitable
for
>minors to be available for access or retrieval by a minor using the
>Internet' (with a reiteration for minors under 15 and MA rated
material).
>
>
>Danny Yee commented: "This may sound innocent, but there are some 
>terrible
>problems with it.  The legislation defines 'transmit' as 'send or 
>receive',
>so you could be in trouble if you accidentally click on a link to an
>objectionable image or someone malicious sends you one by email.  I 
>myself
>send email to thousands of people a year whose ages I have no way of
>checking: some of these messages would probably be rated MA or contain
>pointers to MA rated material."
>
>"This legislation would make it illegal to put MA rated material on a 
>Web
>page or to post it to a Usenet newsgroup or an open mailing list,
since
>there is no way to verify that the people who access these are not
under 
>15
>-- we can say goodbye to discussion forums for drug users, victims of 
>sexual
>abuse, and perhaps even nursing mothers.  Banning material unsuitable 
>for
>minors so broadly is an extraordinary infringement of free speech: an
>equivalent would be removing all MA rated material from libraries and 
>making
>it illegal to tell a dirty joke in a pub without checking that
everyone
>within earshot is of an appropriate age.  Such measures are also
totally
>ineffective, since less than 0.1% of the Internet's content resides on
>computers inside NSW.  Genuine protection of children requires 
>supervision
>by parents and teachers assisted by software such as 'NetNanny' or
>'SurfWatch' and the 'PICS' rating system.  Such schemes also respect
the
>rights of adults to read and see what they want."
>
>The most worrying section of the draft legislation is a list of 
>'reasonable
>steps' it suggests an ISP take to reduce its liability. These include
>'procedures (such as random checks of material available through the
>Internet) conducted to monitor material being transmitted on the 
>Internet'
>and 'deleting material that users of the Internet have complained is
>objectionable or unsuitable for minors'.
>
>"For ISPs to monitor what their users send and receive would be a
gross
>violation of civil liberties: it is as if Telstra were to listen in on

>phone
>calls.  Requiring ISPs to do on the spot rating of material at the
whim 
>of
>anyone on the Internet is also completely unworkable.  ISPs simply can

>not
>be made legally liable in any way for what their users do: they must
be
>given 'common carrier' status like Telstra and Optus."
>
>A rally to protest against the proposed legislation is being held in 
>Sydney
>Hyde Park on Monday May 27th at 12 noon.  Participants will wear blue
>ribbons as a symbol of free speech and will march on Parliament House
at
>1pm.
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 16:12:59 PDT 1996
Article: 43890 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*w admits Israeli control over US of A
Date: 16 Jun 1996 20:48:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 162
Message-ID: <4q1ruh$f8i@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q1h2k$ieu@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca12-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 16  1:48:17 PM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:59495 alt.politics.usa.republican:217499 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:322918 alt.politics.perot:49139 alt.politics.radical-left:98481 alt.revisionism:43890

  Joe Sobran, the author of the disturbing article which follows
(below) was, for many years, a columnist for William F. Buckley's
mainstream-conservative "NATIONAL REVIEW" magazine.
  A few years ago this nationally-respected, open-minded and talented
writer wrote a column which some thin-skinned American Jews didn't
like. The result? The Roman Catholic Sobran -- who's no "anti-semite"
by a longshot -- was fired from "NATIONAL REVIEW" and his case was
basically ignored by the mainstream liberal media.

In <4q1h2k$ieu@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber)
writes: 
>
>alt.conspiracy
>[1] "...(entire USA) in hands of Israel.."-Ari Shawit
>jdulaney@nntp.best.com
>	Israeli columnist Ari Shavit claims "...the White House, the
>Senate and much of the American media is in our (Israel's) hands...."
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>Following is an article from the June 13, 1996 edition of The Wanderer
>that cries for wide distribution.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>"In Our Hands" 
>by Joseph Sobran
>
>One isn't supposed to say this, but many people believe that Israel
>now holds the White House, the Senate, and much of the American
>media in its hands. This is what is known as an anti-Semitic
>conspiracy theory.
>
>The odd thing is that it is held by many Israelis.  In an essay
>reprinted in the May 27th issue of The New York Times, Ari Shavit,
>an Israeli columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli
>killing of more than 100 Lebanese civilians in April: "We killed them
>out of a certain naive hubris.  Believing with absolute certitude
>that now, with the White House, the Senate, and much of the American
>media in our hands, the lives of others do not count as much as our
>own..."
>
>In a single phrase  --  "in our hands" --  Shavit has lighted up the
>American political landscape like a flash of lightning.
>
>Notice that Shavit assumes as an obvious fact what we Americans can
>say publicly only at our own risk.  It's surprising, and refreshing,
>to find such candor in an American newspaper (though his essay was
>reprinted from the Israeli paper Haaretz).
>
>The prescribed cant on the subject holds that Israel is a "reliable
>ally" of the United States,  despite Israel's long record of
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>double-dealing against this country, ranging from the killing of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>American sailors [i.e. the USS Liberty massacre] to constant espionage
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>and technology theft. The word "ally" implies that the relationship 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>exists because it's in the interests of this country, though Israel's 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>lobby is clearly devoted to the interests of Israel itself, and it's 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>childish to suggest otherwise.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>You expect that from the Israeli lobby; lobbies are lobbies, after
>all. But it's unnerving that the White House, the Senate, and much
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of the American media should be "in our hands," as Shavit puts it. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Bill Clinton, a lover of peace since his college days, raised no
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>protest when the Israelis drove 400,000 innocent Lebanese out of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>their homes in "retaliation" for rockets launched into Israel
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>(wounding one Israeli) by a faction over whom those 400,000 had no
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>control.
^^^^^^^^^
>Congress, of course, was supine as usual at this latest extravagance
>of Israeli "defense."  Congress too is "in our hands."
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>A recent article in The Washington Post likened the Israel lobby's
>power to that of the gun and tobacco lobbies.  But there is one
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>enormous difference.  Newspapers like the Post aren't afraid to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>criticize the gun and tobacco lobbies. They will say forthrightly
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>that those lobbies seek goals that are dangerous for this country. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>They don't dare say as much of the Israeli lobby.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>But much of the press and electronic media are "in our hands" in a
>more active sense:  They supply misleading pro-Israel propaganda in
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the guise of news and commentary, constantly praising Israeli
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>"democracy" and ignoring Israel's mistreatment of its non-Jewish
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>minorities  -- mistreatment which, if any government inflicted it on
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>a Jewish minority, would earn it the fierce opprobrium of our media.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>No decent American would think of reducing American Jews to the status
>of Palestinians in Israel.  The idea is almost absurd.  Yet Americans
>are taxed to subsidize the oppression of Palestinians, on the flimsy
>pretext that they are helping an "ally" in America's own
>self-interest to be hated and despised by the whole Muslim world.
>
>All this is interesting less for what it tells us about Israel than
>for what it tells us about America.  Frank discussion of Israel is
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>permitted in Israel, as Shavit's article illustrates.  It's rarely
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>permitted here. Charges of anti-Semitism and a quiet but very
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>effective boycott will be the reward of any journalist who calls
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>attention to his own government's --  and his own profession's   --
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>servitude to Israeli interests.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Very few in America are doing anything to change this sorry state of
>affairs.  Shavit wrote his article in the desperate hope of turning
>back his countrymen and his government from a morally and
>politically perilous course.  At least he can hope.  It's harder for
>us, when our own government isn't in our hands.
>
>=========end==============
>*****{{{{{{{{{*****************}}}}}}}}}*****
>    Un-Official News and Opinion from 
>Linda Muller Web Author lmuller@iquest.com
>  Member Northern Alabama Kitchen Militia
> Use the Ballot Box - Not the Cartridge Box!
>''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
>Pat Buchanan Internet Campaign Headquarters
>     http://www.buchanan.org
>''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
>US Taxpayers Party Internet Headquarters
>     http://www.ustaxpayers.org
>''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
>GO PAT....GO BRIGADES....GO USTP!!!!!!!!
>*****{{{{{{{{{*****************}}}}}}}}}*****
>For a Cutting Edge, Hard-Right Political WEB PAGE:
>http://www.best.com/~jdulaney/politics.html
>http://www.johnbirch.com/
>http://www.tncnet.com/~rsears/jbs/resource.html
>
>"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it
>is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
>					--- Arthur Schopenhauer
>
>"A thousand years hence, perhaps in less, America may be what Europe
>is now....  the noblest work of human wisdom, the grand scene of human
>glory, the fair cause of freedom that rose and fell." 
>					--- Thomas Paine


-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 19:00:51 PDT 1996
Article: 43920 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 16 Jun 1996 20:01:51 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In  repost@repost.org (Remember Vince) writes: 
>
>hkilpatr@osf1.gmu.edu (HENRY E. KILPATRICK JR.) wrote:
>
>>mkennedy wrote:
>>: BTW: I've worked at a food factory, and they had a day set aside
every so often for a Rabbi to come by and certify their food, as well
as one line entirely set apart for Kosher certified food.  I'm unaware
how much this cost them, or made them.   
>
>>: It is pretty bizarre though.  
>
>>Bizarre?  That a company would want to cater to its customers?  That
a company would seek to increase its sales by giving certain customers
>>exactly what they ask for? 

  Well, actually it CAN be legitimately characterized as "weird" that a
company would set aside a separate line in the factory specifically for
the convenience (appeasement?) of a tiny, tiny minority of less than 1%
of the consumer population that follows kosher dietary law. Even the
vast majority of Jews don't follow kosher dietary laws anymore, if they
ever did. (If they did, 50% of the nation's Chinese restaurants would
go out of business!)
  The cost of doing so has got to be substantial -- so substantial, in
fact, that the company would be very lucky merely to break even,
financially, after all it had to spend on literally setting up a
separate line in the food plant, buying rabbi-ok'd equipment ("Made in
Israel"?) and paying a rabbi a $5,000.00 a day salary to "certify"
foods as "kosher," etc.
  If even just 5% of consumers followed these uniquely religious
dietary laws, it then might be explainable in purely economic terms.

>Yes.  It's bizarre to watch any group of people take their food that
>seriously.?!!

  Right on! :-)
  But seriously, *who's" "taking their food that seriously"? We who
point out the ridiculousness of forcing consumers to pay higher food
prices unnecessarily, or those who arrogantly DEMAND that the general
consumer population subsidize the odd, expensive and purely-religious
dietary requirements of a fraction of -1% of the population?
  
>Since I worked as a security guard for this company, many many years
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>ago, it was always rather weird for me to see this Rabbi in his hat, 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>business suit and a fancy car, drive up, as I checked his name off a 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>mostly company only list of to be admitted cars.  In fact, truth be 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>told, it was a standing joke amoung the guards.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  
  As I've mentioned in earlier posts, I wonder how the food company's
everyday workers would have felt if they knew that this
business-suit-wearing, fancy-car-driving rabbi was being paid $5,000.00
for his few hours of "work" snooping around the factory, when the
blue-collar factory workers -- who did the REAL work to ensure the
company's products were wholesome -- had to punch-in literally for
months to earn that kind of money from the company?
  BTW, ex-Nabisco manager Der Bartmann attempted to justify the rabbi's
$5,000.00 "fee" (he himself, in fact, is the one who gave $5,000.00 a
day as the amount) by saying that, in the course of his "certification"
duties, the rabbi had to "climb all over equipment" in the factory.
Wonder why he'd wear a business suit if he was going to perform such
work? :-)

> Haven't seen any Hindu No-Cow 
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>certifications yet, but I'd find it equally bizarre if any other group
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>started doing it.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  You can bet the ACLU, the JDL, the ADL and the XYZ would be outraged
if Christians started demanding that companies pay priests or ministers
"fees" of $5000.00 a day so they could "bless" the companies' food
products.

>Don't have a Cow.  Now THAT would be a certification program :)

 It sure would! :-)

>Max Kennedy
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 19:53:53 PDT 1996
Article: 59501 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: FR**DMAN spoke out, part III
Date: 16 Jun 1996 20:28:38 GMT
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Forwarded message follows:

In <4q1gt5$9na@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber)
writes: 
>
>In the days before the WJC and j*wish control of the media,
conservative 
>j*ws often spoke out against their fellow liberal conspirators. Even
they 
>too have now been silenced:
>This is part 3 in the continuing series about little benny FREEDMAN:
>
>Subject: Benjamin H. Freedman Speaks part 3
>
>   In the meanwhile,  I  had  lived in Germany, and I knew that the 
>Germans
>had decided that Europe is going to be Christian or Communist: there
is 
>no
>in between. And the Germans decided they were going to keep it
Christian 
>if
>possi- ble. And they started to re-arm.
>
>   In November 1933 the United States recognized the Soviet Union. The
>Soviet Union was becoming very powerful, and Germany realized that
"Our 
>turn
>was going  to  come  soon,  unless  we  are strong." The same as we in

>this
>country are saying today, "Our turn is going to come soon, unless we
are
>strong." Our government is spending 83 or 84 billion dollars  for  
>defense.
> Defense against whom?  Defense  against  40,000  little Jews  in  
>Moscow
>that took over Russia, and  then  in  their  devious  ways,  took over
>control of many onther countries of the world.
>
>   For this country now to be on the verge of a Third World War, from 
>which
>we cannot emerge a victor, is something that staggers my imagination. 
I
>know that  nuclear  bombs  are  measured  in terms of megatons. A
megaton 
>is
>a term used to describe  one  million, tons  of TNT. Our nuclear bombs

>had a
>capacity of  10  megatons,  or  10  million  tons  of TNT,  when  they
 
>were
> first  developed. Now, the nuclear bombs that are being developed
have 
>a
>capacity of 200 mega- tons, and God knows how many mega- tons the  
>nuclear
>bombs  of the Soviet Union have.
>
>    What do we face now?  If we trigger a world  war that  may develop
 
>into
>a nuclear war, humanity is finished. Why might such a war take place?
It
>will take place as the curtain goes up on Act 3: Act 1 was world War
I, 
>Act
>2 was World War II, Act 3 is going to be World War III. The Jews of
the
>world, the Zionists and their co-religionists everywhere, are
determined
>that they are going to again use the United States to help them per-
>manently retain Palestine as their fool- hold for their world
government.
>
>That is just as true as I am standing here. Not alone have I read it, 
>but
>many here have also read it, and it is known all over the world.
>
>  What  are we going  to do? The  life you save may be your son's.
Your 
>boys
>may be on their way to that war tonight; and you don't know it any
more 
>than
>you  knew it in 1916  in London the Zionists  made a deal  with the 
>British
>War Cabinet to send your sons to war in Europe. Did you know it at
that
>time? Not a person in the United States knew it. You weren't permitted

>to
>know it. Who knew it? President Wilison knew it. Colonel House knew
it.
>Other insiders knew it.
>
>  Did I know it? I had a pretty good idea of what was going on: I was
>liaison to Henry Morgenthau, Sr., in the 1912 campaign, when President
>Wilson was elected, and there was talk around the office there. I was
>"confidential man" to Henry Morgenthau, Sr., who was chair- man of the
>finance committee, and I was liaison between him and Rollo Wells, the
>treasurer. So I sat in these meetings with President Wilson at the
head 
>of
>the table, and all the others, and I heard them drum into President 
>Wilson's
>brain the graduated income tax and what has become the Federal
Reserve, 
>and
>I heard them indoctrinate him with the Zionist movement. Justice 
>Brandeis
>and President Wilson were just as close as the two fingers on this
hand.
>President Woodrow Wilson was just as incompe- tent when it came to
>determining what was  going on  as  newborn baby.
>
>   That is how they got us into World War I, while we all slept. They 
>sent
>our boys over there to be slaughtered. For what? So the Jews can have
>Palastine as their "commonwealth." They've  fooled you so much that
you
>don't know whether you're coming or going.
>
>   Now any judge, when he charges a jury, says, "Gentlemen, any
witness 
>who
>you find has told a single lie, you can disregard all his testimony."
I
>don't know what state you come from, but in New York state that is the

>way a
>judge addresses a jury. If that witness told one lie, disregard his
>testimony.
>
>   What are the facts about the Jews? (I call them Jews to you,
because 
>they
>are known as Jews. I don't call them Jews myself I refer to them as
>so-called Jews, because  I  know what they are.) The eastern European 
>Jews,
>who form 92 per cent of the world's population of those people who
call
>themselves Jews, were originally Khazars. They were a warlike tribe
who
>lived deep in the heart of Asia. And they were so warlike that even
the
>Asiatics drove them out of Asia into eastern  Europe.  They set up a 
>large
>Khazar  kingdom  of 800,000  square miles. At the time, Russia did not
>exist, nor did many other European countries. The Khazar kingdom  was 
>the
>biggest country in all Europe-so big and so powerful that when the
other
>monarchs wanted to go to war, the Khazars would lend them 40,000
soldiers.
>
>That's how big and powerful they were.
>
>    They  were  phallic  worshippers, which is filthy and I do not
want 
>to
>go into the details of that now. But that was their religion, as it
was 
>also
>the religion of many other pagans and barbarians elsewhere in the
world. 
>The
>Khazar king became so disgusted with the degeneracy of his kingdom
that 
>he
>decided to adopt a  so-called  monotheistic  faith-either
Christianity, 
>lslam,  or  what  is  known today as Judaism, which is really Talmud-
ism.
>
>By spinning a top, and calling out "eeny,  meeny  miney,  moe," he 
>picked
>out so-called Judaism. And that became the state religion: He sent
down 
>to
>the Talmudic schools of Pumbedita and Sura and brought up thousands of
>rabbis, and opened up synagogues and schools,  and his  people became 
>what
>we call Jews. There wasn't one of them who had an ancestor who ever
put 
>a
>toe in the Holy Land. Not only in Old Testament his- tory, but back in

>the
>beginning of time. Not one of them! And yet they come to the
Christians 
>and
>ask us to support their armed insurrections in Palestine by saying,
"You  
>
>want  to  help  repatriate God's Chosen People to their Promised Land,

>their
>ancestral home, don't you? It's your Christian duty. We gave you one
of 
>our
>boys as your lord and Savior. You now go to church on Sunday, and you 
>kneel
>and you worship a Jew, and we're Jews." But they are pagan Khazars who

>were
>converted just the same as the Irish were converted. It is as
ridiculous 
>to
>call them "people of the Holy Land," as it would be to call the 54 
>million
>Chinese Moslems  "Arabs."    Mohammed  only died in 620 A.D., and
since 
>thcn
>54 million Chinese have accepted lslam as their religious belief. Now
>imagine, in China, 2,000 miles away from Arabia, from  Mecca  and 
>Mohammed's  birth- place. Imagine if the 54 million Chinese decided to

>call
>themselves "Arabs." You would say they were lunatics. Anyone who 
>believes
>that those 54 million Chi- nese are Arabs must be crazy. All they did 
>was
>adopt as a religious faith, a belief that had its origin in Mecca, in
>Arabia. The same as the Irish. When the Irish became  Christians 
nobody 
>
>dumped them in the ocean and imported to the Holy Land a new crop of
>inhabitants. They hadn't become a different people. They were the same
>people, but they had accepted Christianity as a religious faith.
>
>  These Khazars, these pagans, these Asiatics, these Turko-Finns, were
a
>Mon- goloid race who forced out of Asia into eastern Europe. Because 
>their
>king took the Talmudic faith, they had no choice in the matter. Just
the
>same as in Spain: If the kingg was Catholic, everybody had to be a 
>Catholic.
>If not, you had to get out of Spain.  So the Khazars became what we
call
>today Jews. Now imagine how silly it was for the great Christian 
>countries
>of the world to say, "We're going to use our power and prestige to
>repatriate God's Chosen People to their ancestral homeland, their 
>Promised
>Land." Could there be a bigger lie than that? Because they control the
>newspa- pers, the magazines, the radio, the tele- vision, the book
>publishing business, and because they have the ministers in the pulpit

>and
>the politicians  on the soapboxes talking the same language it is not 
>too
>surprising that you believe that lie. You'd believe black is white if 
>you
>heard it often, enough. You wouldn't call black black anymore-you'd
start 
>to
>call black white. And nobody could blame you.
>
>   That is one of the great lies of histnry. It is the foundation of
all 
>the
>misery that has befallen the world.
>
>   Do you know what Jews do on the Day of  Atonement, that you think
is 
>so
>sacred to  them? I was one of them. This is not hear say I'm not here
to 
>be
>a rabble-rouser. I'm here to give you facts. When, on the Day of 
>Atonement,
>you walk into a synagogue, you stand up for the very first prayer that

>you
>recite. It is the only prayer for which you stand. You repeat three
times 
>a
>short prayer called the Kol Nidre. In that prayer, you enter into an
>agreement with God Almighty that any oath, vow, or pledge that you may

>make
>during the next twelve months shall be null and void. The oath shall
not 
>be
>an oath; the vow shall not be a vow; the pledge shall not be a pledge.

>They
>shall have no force or effect. And further, the Talmud teaches that
when-
>
>ever you take an oath, vow, or pledge, you  are to remember the Kol 
>Nidre
>prayer that you recited on the Day of Atonement, and you are exempted 
>from
>fulfilling them. How much can you depend on their loyalty? You can 
>depend
>upon their loyalty as much as the Germans depended upon it in 1916. We

>are
>going to suffer the same fate as Germany suffered, and for the same 
>reason.
>
>[s]
>
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 16 19:53:56 PDT 1996
Article: 59506 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!newsfeeder.servtech.com!news1.io.org!winternet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: ---> Burned Black Churches: Phony Racist Diversion Tactics Abound <---
Date: 16 Jun 1996 20:19:16 GMT
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Forwarded message follows:

In <4q1g6j$i96@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber)
writes: 
>
>
> >I was listening to a talk show today and the President of the
Chicago
>>Black Churches Assoc. stated on the radio that blacks cannot be
> >racist. It is a word created by white people, and people who are
being
> >discriminated against CANNOT be racist.  When someone said that if a
> >white person walked down a street of a black inner city neighborhood
> >and was attacked because of his skin color that is racism, the guy
> >said no, it was a reaction to the enviorment that has been created
by
> >white people.
>
>On the subject of Churches burning, what the liberal news hasn't told
us, 
>except for ABC radio, is that the number of White Churches burned in
the 
>same period is almost identical. In the period studied, ABC said 26
negro 
>churches vs 25 White churches.
>
>would seem to be a JDL conspiracy rather than one of White so-called 
>racism.
>
>Sharon@Hohenhausen.Guild
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 17 07:37:53 PDT 1996
Article: 44016 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: "Historians: Israelis killed POW's"
Date: 16 Jun 1996 21:07:49 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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In <4ptr1e$l22@useneta1.news.prodigy.com> XFQZ15A@prodigy.com (Joseph
Stewart) writes: 
>
> Denial of Truth: Chapter 13.
>
> On Aug. 17th. 1995, I was reading the Boston Herald Newspaper
>when I noticed an article titled "Historians: Israelis killed POW's"
>I was very disturbed by this article that I had just finished reading,

>and yes, I just had to begin one more chapter of the "Denial of the 
>Truth"
>
>     This article begins by pointing out that in the year 1956,
Israeli 
>soldiers were in fact taking captured Egyptian prisoners to several 
>different locations and were killing these same prisoners in cold
blood.

  Very Nazi-like of these Israelis -- I bet half of whom were born and
raised in New York, Miami and Chicago -- don't you think?

>     A photograph taken way back in '56, clearly shows Egyptian 
>prisioners that were unnarmed, their arms outstretched over their
heads 
>while Israeli soldiers marched behind them, with rifles in hand
pointing 
>directly at the prisoners backs. Now this could be a picture on any 
>battlefield. The enemy is
>taken prisoner, but the Israeli leaders decided that they had the
right 
>to just "kill" their prisoners of war. Hey Why not? Then the Israeli 
>government didnt have to pay for their prisoners food, shelter, or 
>clothing of their captives!

  Yup, VERY Nazi-like, indeed!

>     But,,, then again, this is a most similar action taken by the
Nazi 
>leaders towards the Jewish peoples during WWII... Was it not? Yes,
this 
>was an unrighteous fascist style crime than was used on those same 
>soldiers of Egypt back in '56. A man named Ayre Biro, a Retired 
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Israeli General, admitted that he had in fact personally killed dozens
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of Egyptian POW's in the '56 Middle East War.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>     Another War Veteran and auther named Michael Barzohar spoke out
over 
>Israeli national radio about two army cooks that he knew had in fact 
>stabbed three Egyptian prisoners to death in the Sinai in '67. He 
>admitted due to fear that way back in '67, he never told anyone about
the 
>kililngs he had
>personally observed for if the Egyptian government or ground troops
ever 
>learned about those killings he feared the Arab troops may have 
>retaliated with the same type of actions towards their Israeli POW's
they 
>had captured.
>
>     This next passage, is Barhohars explanation of what he saw:
>"Two cooks with knives, simply slaughtered these three prisoners, this

>incident has haunted me for a very long time" he concluded.
>
>     Also, A military historian, Aryeh Yitzhaki stated that Israeli 
>troops were resonsible for several mass killings in '67, in wich 1,000

>Egyptian prisoners were also killed in Sanai. on June 9'th and 10'th
'67, 
>a group of 400+ Egyptians as well as Palestainian prisoners were also 
>killed in the sand dunes of El Ariash.
>
>     Yitzhaki further detailed that "the deaths took place after some
of 
>the prisoners supposedly opened fire on Israeli troops after
surrendering 
>killing two Isreaeli soldiers." The results said "Yitzhaki was that 
>Israeli soldiers became so enraged that they opened fire and continued
to 
>fire at every single last Egypian soldier over a several hour period."

>Yitzhaki insisted that "the Israeli commanders on the ground that day,

>lost complete control over thier forces who continued to fire at will 
>upon the Egyptian soldiers positions untill every one of them were
dead"
>
>     Yitzhaki also had pointed out that the entire Israeli army 
>leadership including defence minister Moshe Dayon as well as former
Cheif 
>of Staff Yitzhak Rubin who was the "Top military brass in '67" And all

>the Generals Knew about the kilings and not one of them bothered to 
>denounce these
>slayings. Yitzhaki concluded.
>
>     Also speaking out, was another Israeli military historian, Uri 
>Milstein Who stated that there were "Numerous killings of Egyptian 
>soldiers by Israeli troops after those same Egyptian soldiers laid
down 
>their weopons and raised their hands to surrender." Milstein, a member
of 
>the New York Academy of Science, quoted "It was not an official
policy, 
>but there was an atmosphere that it was OK to do it" In other words,
kill 
>unnarmed and all surrendering POW's.
>
>     Now we all know who the top politicians were in Israeli dont we?
Oh 
>yes the Primie Minister was no other than the "Former Chief of Staff" 
>Yitzhak Rabin, who was the "Prime Minister" of Israel until he was
killed.
> His close companion the right wing legeslatior Rafael Eitah, a former

>army cheif! Those
>men knew about those deaths as they were the commanders of the Israeli

>army in '67, and now, they were the top political leaders of
Israel.Did 
>these men stand in a war crimes tribunal? Fat chance! Not America's
great 
>friends in Israel this reminds me of Pope John Paul's cowardness when
he 
>converted
>to Catholism while in a Nazi concentration camp! Yes, spitting on 
>Jewidism to save his own bloody neck. A double standard. Yitzhak Rubin

>and all the other military leaders who held positions in '67, should
have 
>been held accountable for war crimes they obviously tried to cover up
and 
>or did nothing to stop . . . 
>
> . . . Now according 
>to this information, I share with you now, only 11 years later, in '56
>the Israeli's
>commited some of the same crimes as the Nazi Germans have. But what
about 
>justice for the Egypian prisoners of war, who died so dishonorably at
the 
>hands of crazed Israeli soldiers. Who will grant those poor souls I
ask 
>you? Will Israeli soldiers who commited those horrible war crimes go
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>unpunished? Killing unarmed POW's in cold blood is just as evil as 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>unnarmed Jews being sent to the gas chambers.  Both crimes end results
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>were the deaths of innocent unnarmed people who had no choice but to 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
die.
^^^^
>  Yes ISRAELI NAZISM is a reaity, unfortunatly Prime Minister 
>Yitzthak Rabin was never brought to justice for war crimes he
willingly 
>did nothing to stop, NATO and the UN should feel shame that they
allowed 
>that fascist pig to stay in power. When you see and hear that the 
>Israelis commited the
>crimes then the Jewish state does not look as innocent as they try to 
>lead us to believe. The sick conclusion is that Yitzhak Rubin had
simply 
>denounced the killings as "Isolated incidents" . . . 
>
>     I am not a defender of terrorism by any means, but no wonder
Islamic 
>leaders want to destroy Isreal. I would like to compare Isreal to
England,
> who currently still occupys Northern Ireland. Everyone knows that 
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Northern Ireland is occupied, yet, none of the free world leaders wish
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to get
^^^^^^
>involved in setting England straight on that fact. People must 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>understand 
>that England's "once grand" Monarchy, are also responsible for
millions 
>of deaths, thefts of land, stolen currencies, and destruction of
crops, 
>not forgetting centuries of taxing during their occupancy of Ireland
and 
>its
>people. Anyone remember Oliver Cromwell? Let me make a point, Germany
is 
>once again, a United Country, it is no longer East and West. And
Germany 
>has its own military, government, and currency. But isnt Germany much 
>further east on the European continent? And hasnt Germany been held
>accountable for all the crimes of all the crimes of WWI and WWII? Now 
>Germany has been forgiven by the world and now thrives once again, as
a 
>world power. The same goes for Japan, but Northern Ireland, a country
in 
>the most western regions of Europe, a place where most polititians
would 
>openly
>say, sould be the freest part of Europe. Its still occupied by
England, a 
>country that is supposed to be nearly identical in terms of peoples 
>freedom compared to the Untited States and Canada. So why is Northern 
>Ireland occupied? And why do tentions still exist as well? Very
similar 
>to Israel's plight wouldnt you say?
>
>So now I quote a song from Paul McCartney, "Give Ireland back to the 
>Irish" This is a very true song.
>
>I feel terrible in reguards to the loss of Yitzhak Rubine, truly a 
>tradgedy no person deserves to die for their views, views that had
become 
>quite positive for the Israeli people in general.
>
>A Rabbi's confession: "A cautious Jew, holds back his magic on his
sacred 
>Sabbath night, but he will have already invoked a sprite that he's 
>secretly trained to carry on all his fights. Any observant Jew knows
all 
>too well the many things he personally cannot do himself on a Sabbath 
>night so a Shabbas devil he will envoke when his way a Sabbath is
dealt.
>"
>
>Written by Rev. Bleddyn Ap CymFym.
>Founder of the Celtic Coalition for Pagan rights.
>The Grove of Samhailgriah A Universal Life Church Ministry
>Copy Right 1995 All Rights Reserved.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 17 18:56:22 PDT 1996
Article: 44094 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 17 Jun 1996 19:39:52 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <4q4ca8$cmc@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4pubbi$95q@liberator.concentric.net> <4q3imi$g8v@zap.io.org> <31C4D6A7.1018E234@mars.superlink.net>
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In <31C4D6A7.1018E234@mars.superlink.net> Einstein
 writes: 
>
>So while I am boycotting Kosher foods you can boycott nike!  Tell them
>you dont like to pay more for the sneaker just because some other
people
>will buy it.  I bet by them selling more sneakers it actually costs
less
>for them to make.  That is not true with Kosher products!
>

  EXCELLENT point. You really ARE an "Einstein"! :-)

>karl mamer wrote:
>> 
>> From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
>> 
>> >  Absolutely. especially in light of the fact that such "kosher
>> > certification" does not substantively do anything to improve the
>> > product whatsoever.
>> >   I'd love for someone who claims kosher certification improves a
>> > product to take a blindfolded "taste test" of expensive "kosher
>> > certified" vs. less-expensive non-"kosher-certified" food. Think
they'd
>> > be able to tell the difference? Not!
>> 
>> Define "improve". Explain how Nike paying a basketball player
$3,000,000
>> ($8000 a day) improves a product other than in the same
psychological
>> way as kosher labelling. Again, I don't buy Nike because of who
>> wears their shoes, but some people do. When I buy Nike shoes,
however,
>> Nike passes the cost of its narrow casting on to me.
>> 
>> --
>> "You play right into the hands of the suits and ties
>>  - every time."
>>                                        - Bob Allisat
>> 
>> * This email account does NOT accept unsolicited commercial *
>> * advertising. Failure to comply will result in a $500      *
>> * charge-back. Sending unsolicited commercial email to this *
>> * account constitutes an agreement to these terms.          *
>
>-- 
>mailto:einstein@mars.superlink.net
>http://mars.superlink.net/einstein

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 18 10:47:50 PDT 1996
Article: 23124 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: "Patriot" Profile #4 is Here!
Date: 18 Jun 1996 05:08:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4q5dl6$g9u@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q46hh$hpl@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17 10:08:54 PM PDT 1996

Forwarded message follows.

In <4q46hh$hpl@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark T Pitcavage) writes: 
>
>
>
>Drop your carbines and grab your cammies, because "Patriot" Profile #4
has
>arrived!
>
>This time:
>
>"A Fledgling Militia:  The Blue Ridge Hunt Club Versus the BATF."
>
>See what happens when government and anti-government forces collide
head on.
>
>
>
>Check it out:
>
>http://www.greyware.com/authors/pitman/huntclub.htm
>
>Brought to you by The Militia Watchdog.

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 18 10:47:52 PDT 1996
Article: 23156 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white.power
Subject: Re: The notorious Karlo Takki's postal address
Date: 17 Jun 1996 19:35:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <4q4c1f$t75@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4prti6$i3h@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4q2sfo$41q@xensei3.xensei.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 17  2:35:11 PM CDT 1996

In <4q2sfo$41q@xensei3.xensei.com> ktakki@artcrime.com (Karlo tacky)
writes: 
>
>In article <4prti6$i3h@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes:
>
>>   Karlo Takki is a notorious New Age abuser of Net people on the
Right.
>
[deletia]

>> I took the position that it's not proper for Jewish rabbis to
>receive
>> $10,000.00 for two days a year of snooping around food factories,
>> making a general nuisance of themselves and making sure -- how
>> important! (not!) -- that the food companies put no pork in their
>> products. 
>
[deletia]
>
>>   The following information is 100% PUBLICALLY-AVAILABLE on the
>> Internet.
>>   
>> ktakki@xensei2.xensei.com and ktakki@artcrime.com
>> 
>> Karlo Takki
>> P.O. Box 15238
>> Kenmore Station
>> Boston, Massachusetts 02215
>> -- 
>
>Actually, Mr. Catalano, my *home* address is 48 Allston Street,
Allston,
>Massachusetts.  If you plan on visiting, be sure to wear plenty of
Kevlar.
>You'll need it.

  Thanks, but I always come prepared anyway. Never know if I'll have to
DEFEND myself. ;-)
  

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 18 22:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 44368 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 18 Jun 1996 19:16:36 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4q6vak$5nv@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4php8m$4c9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4pi09q$dsl@scoop.eco.twg.com> <4pidd2$632@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plido$f7s@news.usaor.net> <4pq6jp$isj@nadine.teleport.com> <4p <4q6dcr$sfs@portal.gmu.edu>
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 >: In fact, Ayn Rand, the Jewish emigre from Russia (sorry
>: Hilary), actually wrote a book titled, "The Virtue of Selfishness,"
in
>: fact.  
>:   Of course, many who've had little contact with Jews will be
offended
>: by such a statement. It's easy to get into that "heroic" mode and
>: defensively start accusing people of being "anti-semitic" for saying
>: such obvious truths -- especially when the "heroes" themselves have
>: known very few Jews personally. 
>
>You are anti-semetic for being a lying bigot.  But you knew that
already. 

  So Ayn Rand WASN'T a Jewish emigre?
  So that disgusting woman DIDN'T write a book titled, "The Virtue of
Selfishness" to explicitly state her philosophy of life?
  Seems to me all the above is quite true and eminently verifiable.
Which makes *YOU* the "liar." :-)

>--
>Buddy K
>
>VOTE FOR ART GOODTIMES
>San Miguel County, CO
>Commissioner
>
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 18 22:50:25 PDT 1996
Article: 44391 of alt.revisionism
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Sobran - Israel's "Amen Corner" OWNS Press, White House, Congress
Date: 18 Jun 1996 05:03:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4q5dbg$22h@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31c5447a.67034811@news.lm.com>
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  Remember, Joe Sobran was long-time, respected columnist on William F.
Buckley Jr.'s very "mainstream" "NATIONAL REVIEW" magazine before he
became the focus of some thin-skinned people who can dish it out but
can't take it.
  Once he discussed some issues which some American Jews were
understandably embarrased by, however -- which doesn't at all make
Sobran an "antisemite," obviously -- he was kicked of the magazine and,
all-too-typically, demonized in the largely Jewish-run liberal media. 
  In recent years Pat Buchanan, a man I respect and admire immensely,
has become a like object of demonization.
  
In <31c5447a.67034811@news.lm.com> landlord@telerama.lm.com (Mayor Loz)
writes: 
>
>
>	Israeli columnist Ari Shavit claims "...the White House, the
>Senate and much of the American media is in our (Israel's) hands...."
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>Following is an article from the June 13, 1996 edition of The Wanderer
>that cries for wide distribution.
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>"In Our Hands" 
>by Joseph Sobran
>
>One isn't supposed to say this, but many people believe that Israel
>now holds the White House, the Senate, and much of the American
>media in its hands. This is what is known as an anti-Semitic
>conspiracy theory.
>
>The odd thing is that it is held by many Israelis.  In an essay
>reprinted in the May 27th issue of The New York Times, Ari Shavit,
>an Israeli columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli
>killing of more than 100 Lebanese civilians in April: "We killed them
>out of a certain naive hubris.  Believing with absolute certitude
>that now, with the White House, the Senate, and much of the American
>media in our hands, the lives of others do not count as much as our
>own..."
>
>In a single phrase  --  "in our hands" --  Shavit has lighted up the
>American political landscape like a flash of lightning.
>
>Notice that Shavit assumes as an obvious fact what we Americans can
>say publicly only at our own risk.  It's surprising, and refreshing,
>to find such candor in an American newspaper (though his essay was
>reprinted from the Israeli paper Haaretz).
>
>The prescribed cant on the subject holds that Israel is a "reliable
>ally" of the United States,  despite Israel's long record of
>double-dealing against this country, ranging from the killing of
>American sailors to constant espionage and technology theft. The
>word "ally" implies that the relationship exists because it's in the
>interests of this country, though Israel's lobby is clearly devoted
>to the interests of Israel itself, and it's childish to suggest
>otherwise.
>
>You expect that from the Israeli lobby; lobbies are lobbies, after
>all. But it's unnerving that the White House, the Senate, and much
>of the American media should be "in our hands," as Shavit puts it. 
>Bill Clinton, a lover of peace since his college days, raised no
>protest when the Israelis drove 400,000 innocent Lebanese out of
>their homes in "retaliation" for rockets launched into Israel
>(wounding one Israeli) by a faction over whom those 400,000 had no
>control.
>
>Congress, of course, was supine as usual at this latest extravagance
>of Israeli "defense."  Congress too is "in our hands."
>
>A recent article in The Washington Post likened the Israel lobby's
>power to that of the gun and tobacco lobbies.  But there is one
>enormous difference.  Newspapers like the Post aren't afraid to
>criticize the gun and tobacco lobbies. They will say forthrightly
>that those lobbies seek goals that are dangerous for this country. 
>They don't dare say as much of the Israeli lobby.
>
>But much of the press and electronic media are "in our hands" in a
>more active sense:  They supply misleading pro-Israel propaganda in
>the guise of news and commentary, constantly praising Israeli
>"democracy" and ignoring Israel's mistreatment of its non-Jewish
>minorities  -- mistreatment which, if any government inflicted it on
>a Jewish minority, would earn it the fierce opprobrium of our media.
>
>No decent American would think of reducing American Jews to the status
>of Palestinians in Israel.  The idea is almost absurd.  Yet Americans
>are taxed to subsidize the oppression of Palestinians, on the flimsy
>pretext that they are helping an "ally" in America's own
>self-interest to be hated and despised by the whole Muslim world.
>
>All this is interesting less for what it tells us about Israel than
>for what it tells us about America.  Frank discussion of Israel is
>permitted in Israel, as Shavit's article illustrates.  It's rarely
>permitted here. Charges of anti-Semitism and a quiet but very
>effective boycott will be the reward of any journalist who calls
>attention to his own government's --  and his own profession's   --
>servitude to Israeli interests.
>
>Very few in America are doing anything to change this sorry state of
>affairs.  Shavit wrote his article in the desperate hope of turning
>back his countrymen and his government from a morally and
>politically perilous course.  At least he can hope.  It's harder for
>us, when our own government isn't in our hands.
>  ---- Loz ---- Pittsburgh, PA * 72162.1174@compuserve.com

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 18 22:50:26 PDT 1996
Article: 44392 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!mhv.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 18 Jun 1996 05:15:17 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 19
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In <31C5CB44.7573@snowline.net> Bill Carter 
writes: 
>
>Why is it that, as I read through the postings on this topic, the
first 
>thing that came to mind is the 'whisper' campagin that went through 
>Germany in the late 1920's early '30's???
>
  Typical left-wing-McCarthyism i.e. pure over-reaction and distortion.
  Are you trying to have a chilling effect on open debate on the
Internet?
  And, if there indeed HAD been such a "whisper campaign" in Russia
around the time of the Communist takeover there perhaps we wouldn't
have had to go through 70+ years of the Cold War and the cancer of
international Communism.
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 01:21:38 PDT 1996
Article: 59991 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Political Leaders of the USA have committed Treason
Date: 18 Jun 1996 19:05:22 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 157
Message-ID: <4q6uli$9vo@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
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Edited and forwarded message follows:

In  west1@apc.net (Bob Hannah)
writes: 
>
>Tonight  [6/12/96] on the ABC news there was a story about a drought
>in the Western USA with the possibility of the return to dust bowl
>days . . . 

[deleted]

>. . . A few weeks ago there were many stories on the news about great
>over supplies of cattle on the market . . . 

[deleted]

>  Under the NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) and GATT
>(General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs) and the regulatory body WTO
>(World Trade Organization) things have really changed in the grain
>market.   First he told me that the grain supply from North America is
>down about 30% over the past 2 years due to drought.   Then he
                                                        ^^^^^^^^
                                                        ********
>explained that the GATT rules enforced by the WTO made it illegal for
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
**********************************************************************
>the USA to retain sufficient supplies of grain in emergency to prevent
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
***********************************************************************
>starvation.  We were compelled to sell to the rest of the world
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
****************************************************************
>regardless if we could feed our people or not.  
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
***********************************************

>  He further explained that the shortfalls, coupled with the inability
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of the USA to control it's own domestic market (under WTO orders) had
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>already driven the price of grain up such that the farmers were going
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>broke on cattle and that the grain elevator operations in the USA were
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>going broke as a result.    Frankly I was shaken but I was uncertain
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>of the authority and accuracy of his report.  So I started looking for
>information.

>  I did not have to look far.  The head of Archer Daniels Midland
>Corp, the world's largest grain company, "Super Market to the World"
>as they like to call themselves, reported that this problem was
>developing and described it identically in February 1996.  At the same
>time the head of Arco Oil and Tenneco Oil  confirmed the information. 

>  It was this USA inability to manage their own markets that had
>presented itself in the spring of 1996 as a sharp run up in oil
>prices. 

>  A smart observer can clearly see that this is forming a pattern. 
>Food supplies getting short,  Oil Prices running up, Cattle in over
>supply, Press reports of Drought and return to Dust Bowl Conditions. 
>These are all a set up.  No official of the USA can openly admit that 
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>he signed away the sovereignty of the USA and now we the people of the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>USA are in danger of real genuine starvation developing and as a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>result.  They must find someone else to blame.  
^^^^^^^^
>Here is the outline of what is going on.

>[1] The USA is experiencing a small not abnormal shortfall or
>fluctuation in grain supplies. 

>[2] The USA has agreed to take any shortfall in food supplies within
>our domestic market under GATT. 

>[3] The WTO has said that regardless of domestic conditions, we must
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>supply foreign demand.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> [4] Most Favored Nation Trading Status is permitting foreign nations 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>(I.E. China) to use our domestic money supply to buy up our grain 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>stocks and commit economic war against us.  The WTO refuses us either 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the means to deny credit or withhold supplies of grain.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> [5] Domestic stocks now constitute about a 3 day
>supply of food.  (This does not mean we will run out in three days,
>merely that the inventory must be replaced continually that an
>interruption of 1% or more may leave us without food at all.

>[6] The development of Just In Time inventory practices in the USA has
>created the absence of any protective inventories.

>The sad reality of all of these facts is that Americans in the land
>which feeds the world over 80% of it's food may actually starve to
>death while the rest of the world eats.  

>EDITORIAL COMMENT:
>  The principal objection of the opponents of NAFTA and GATT was that
>they sacrificed our national sovereignty to the WTO.   Opponents were
>laughed at as fools and relics of some bygone foolish populism.  They
>have been derided as extremists and wackos.   This problem is exactly
>why the opponents were opposed. They understood that national
>sovereignty is a far more important thing than anything else.  It is
>the right to control and defend one's own life.

>  The Political Leaders of the USA have committed Treason against our
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>country in the form of these agreements.   Conservatives may have no
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>difficulty understanding that President William J. Clinton would do
>this, as they often accuse him of being a draft dodger, but they must
>accept the reality that Bob Dole and Newt Gingrich  over the objection
>of  many in their own party drove these bills through the Senate and
>House . . .  If you accept these men for your leaders, you are
>threatening the life of your own community.  

>More down to earth issues include the fact that you must take measures
>to protect your own family and to politically educate others.  This
>problem is not the product of a shortage.  The problem here is that
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>our political leaders have sold us out and left us without the right
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to defend ourselves even if we starve.  (Is this so inconsistent with
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>their disarming us in other ways?)

>We must realize that many people even within our own country have come
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>to view our affluence as opposed to the poverty of the rest of the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>world as the problem.  Thus they have undertaken to make us as poor as
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>the rest of the human race.  This was done even though we control our
>population, have increased our energy efficiency to 3 times our
>nearest competitor, and are the only nation to be improving the
>environment.  These people deny the facts and they hate the human
>race.

>I prefer to dub former Senator Bob Dole (Benedict Arnold Dole) because
>he was the man who openly spoke about the sovereignty of the USA being
>a problem and then switched his vote to make these horrid agreements.
>Remember a traitor is more dangerous than an openly declared enemy.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Paul Noel

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 10:59:41 PDT 1996
Article: 44489 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,news.admin.net-abuse.misc,alt.flame
Subject: Re: Anti-semitic lies that idiots keep harping on
Date: 19 Jun 1996 04:49:56 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4q80tk$nmk@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4p1a3l$p6l@zot.io.org> <4p2r58$oth@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <4q7t1j$vek@xensei3.xensei.com>
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In <4q7t1j$vek@xensei3.xensei.com> ktakki@artcrime.com (Karlo Takki)
writes: 
>
>In article <4q1nau$otq@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
>joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) writes:

[deletia]

>>   Well, "tacky" you certainly are . . . ;-)

Anyway, I've
>been planning another trip out to the Left Coast this summer.  Maybe
I'll
>make a special trip to Orange County just for you, babe.  I have no
problem 
>mixing business with *pleasure*.

  Hey, step right up and bend over, pal. :-)
  
[deleted]

>"Karlo Takki is a notorious New Age abuser of Net people on the
Right."
>                          --joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
>
>p.s.: I *still* don't know where the fuck you got "New Age" from.  I'm
a
>      carnivorous, chain-smoking skeptic.  And an NRA Life Member to
boot.

  My kinda guy. Plays trumpet, too . . . I think we're what Marx meant
by that "thesis, antithesis" shit . . . :-)

 [deleted]

>p.p.s: Still looking to buy a used trumpet?  

[deleted]

  Nah, I just ordered a new one. Seems to me, though, that you'd likely
have one great set of chops, with all the "blowing" you must do. Hee
hee ...  ;-)

  
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 10:59:43 PDT 1996
Article: 44567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Joe Sobran, Pat Buchanan vindicated [was: Joseph Sobran's "In Our Hands"]
Date: 19 Jun 1996 04:31:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 178
Message-ID: <4q7vqs$n7c@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca7-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 18  9:31:24 PM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:60212 alt.politics.usa.republican:219012 alt.revisionism:44567 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:324230 alt.politics.perot:49300 alt.politics.democrats.d:88719 alt.politics.radical-left:99129

  Joe Sobran is the former columnist for William F. Buckley's "National
Review" magazine who was the victim of a vindictive campaign of
Jewish-American McCarthyism a few years ago, which resulted in this
very respected *mainstream* writer for a very respected *mainstream*
publication being fired from his job. 

  Forwarded without any editing, except for underlining, which I did to
selected passages:

In 
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes: 
>
>
>
>"In Our Hands"
>by Joseph Sobran
>
>  One isn't supposed to say this, but many people believe that Israel
now
>holds the White House, the Senate, and much of the American media in
its
>hands. This is what is known as an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.
>
>  The odd thing is that it is held by many Israelis. In an essay 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
reprinted
>in the May 27th issue of The New York Times, Ari Shavit, an Israeli
>columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli killing of more
>than 100 Lebanese civilians in April: "We killed them out of a certain
>naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude that now, with the 
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
White          ****************************************************
^^^^^
*****
>House, the Senate, and much of the American media in our hands, the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
****************************************************************
lives
>of others do not count as much as our own..."
>
>In a single phrase -- "in our hands" -- Shavit has lighted up the
American
>political landscape like a flash of lightning. 
>
>Notice that Shavit assumes as an obvious fact what we Americans can 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
say
^^^
>publicly only at our own risk. It's surprising, and refreshing, to 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
find
>such candor in an American newspaper (though his essay was reprinted
from
>the Israeli paper Haaretz). 
>
>The prescribed cant on the subject holds that Israel is a "reliable
ally"
>of the United States, despite Israel's long record of double-dealing
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                       **********************************************
>against this country, ranging from the killing of American sailors to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
**********************************************************************
>constant espionage and technology theft. The word "ally" implies that 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
**********************************************************************
the
^^^
***
>relationship exists because it's in the interests of this country, 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*******************************************************************
though
^^^^^^
******
>Israel's lobby is clearly devoted to the interests of Israel itself, 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*********************************************************************
and
^^^
***
>it's childish to suggest otherwise.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
************************************
>  You expect that from the Israeli lobby; lobbies are lobbies, after
all.
>  But it's unnerving that the White House, the Senate, and much of the
>American media should be "in our hands," as Shavit puts it. Bill
Clinton,
>a lover of peace since his college days, raised no protest when the
>Israelis drove 400,000 innocent Lebanese out of their homes in
>"retaliation" for rockets launched into Israel (wounding one Israeli)
by a
>faction over whom those 400,000 had no control.
>
>Congress, of course, was supine as usual at this latest extravagance
of
>Israeli "defense." Congress too is "in our hands." 
>
>  A recent article in The Washington Post likened the Israel lobby's
power
>to that of the gun and tobacco lobbies. But there is one enormous
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>difference. Newspapers like the Post aren't afraid to criticize the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
gun
^^^
>and tobacco lobbies. They will say forthrightly that those lobbies 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
seek
^^^^
>goals that are dangerous for this country. They don't dare say as much
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
of
^^
>the Israeli lobby. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  But much of the press and electronic media are "in our hands" in a
more
>active sense: They supply misleading pro-Israel propaganda in the
guise of
>news and commentary, constantly praising Israeli "democracy" and
ignoring
>Israel's mistreatment of its non-Jewish minorities -- mistreatment
which,
>if any government inflicted it on a Jewish minority, would earn it the
>fierce opprobrium of our media. 
>
>  No decent American would think of reducing American Jews to the
status of
>Palestinians in Israel. The idea is almost absurd. Yet Americans are
taxed
>to subsidize the oppression of Palestinians, on the flimsy pretext
that
>they are helping an "ally" in America's own self-interest to be hated
and
>despised by the whole Muslim world. 
>
>  All this is interesting less for what it tells us about Israel than
for
>what it tells us about America. Frank discussion of Israel is 
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
permitted in                   
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Israel, as Shavit's article illustrates. It's rarely permitted here.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Charges of anti-Semitism and a quiet but very effective boycott will 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
be
^^
>the reward of any journalist who calls attention to his own 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
government's
^^^^^^^^^^^^
>-- and his own profession's -- servitude to Israeli interests.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>  Very few in America are doing anything to change this sorry state of
>affairs. Shavit wrote his article in the desperate hope of turning
back
>his countrymen and his government from a morally and politically
perilous
>course. At least he can hope. It's harder for us, when our own
government
>isn't in our hands. 
>
>=========end==============
>
>-- 
>******************************************************************
>What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
>                                                                  *
>The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
>*******************************************************************

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 12:21:37 PDT 1996
Article: 60065 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.cableol.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: WARNING!!!!!
Date: 18 Jun 1996 19:24:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4q6vp3$7f2@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q6q91$8do@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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In <4q6q91$8do@newsbf02.news.aol.com> imcraz666@aol.com (IMCRAZ666)
writes: 
>
>The ATF is monitoring this newsgroup.

  Along with about 25 other government agencies, one would assume . . .
and, frankly, I can understand why. They may p/u some good leads here
on the Net that can help them in their law-enforcement work. (As long
as the leads don't wind up at any doorsteps in Little Rock, Arkansas or
Washington, D.C., I guess.)
  I never realized, though, that the Internet was considered an
"alcoholic beverage." Maybe it's a tobacco? A firearm?
  Then again, there actually IS a newly-discovered disease (really)
called "Internet Addiction Syndrome" (IAD). Wonder when they'll find a
cure . . . I may need it bad! :-) 
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 12:58:03 PDT 1996
Article: 99011 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.cableol.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: WARNING!!!!!
Date: 18 Jun 1996 19:24:19 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <4q6vp3$7f2@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4q6q91$8do@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca15-04.ix.netcom.com
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In <4q6q91$8do@newsbf02.news.aol.com> imcraz666@aol.com (IMCRAZ666)
writes: 
>
>The ATF is monitoring this newsgroup.

  Along with about 25 other government agencies, one would assume . . .
and, frankly, I can understand why. They may p/u some good leads here
on the Net that can help them in their law-enforcement work. (As long
as the leads don't wind up at any doorsteps in Little Rock, Arkansas or
Washington, D.C., I guess.)
  I never realized, though, that the Internet was considered an
"alcoholic beverage." Maybe it's a tobacco? A firearm?
  Then again, there actually IS a newly-discovered disease (really)
called "Internet Addiction Syndrome" (IAD). Wonder when they'll find a
cure . . . I may need it bad! :-) 
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 14:00:00 PDT 1996
Article: 44628 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!usenet.ee.pdx.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: The "Kosher Tax" RIP-OFF
Date: 19 Jun 1996 04:13:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 85
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In <4q73m8$bt1@scoop.eco.twg.com> chall@eco.twg.com (Charles Don Hall)
writes: 
>
>In article <4q6vak$5nv@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Charles  wrote:
>> >: In fact, Ayn Rand, the Jewish emigre from Russia (sorry
>>>: Hilary), actually wrote a book titled, "The Virtue of
Selfishness,"
>>in
>>>: fact.  
>>>:   Of course, many who've had little contact with Jews will be
>>offended
>>>: by such a statement. It's easy to get into that "heroic" mode and
>>>: defensively start accusing people of being "anti-semitic" for
saying
>>>: such obvious truths -- especially when the "heroes" themselves
have
>>>: known very few Jews personally. 
>>>
>>>You are anti-semetic for being a lying bigot.  But you knew that
>>already. 
>>
>>  So Ayn Rand WASN'T a Jewish emigre?
>>  So that disgusting woman DIDN'T write a book titled, "The Virtue of
>>Selfishness" to explicitly state her philosophy of life?
>>  Seems to me all the above is quite true and eminently verifiable.
>>Which makes *YOU* the "liar." :-)
>
>OK, let's see what we've got:
>
>I'll start by noting that Ayn Rand *was* born into a Jewish family,
>but she subsequently converted to a particularly rabid form of 
>atheism. She had nothing positive to say about Judaism or any other
>religion.
>
>Ayn Rand never claimed to be representative of Jews, nor have
>any large number of Jews claimed her as their spokeswoman. So, 
>there's no point in using her books to get a clear picture of 
>Judaism or of the Jewish culture . . .  

[deletia]

  You may have a point there. Therefore, I withdraw my claim that she
was "Jewish," since she apparently renounced her Jewishness by the
content of her very prolific writing career as an atheist.
  Clearly, she was an admitted atheist and -- obviously -- religious
Jews do believe in God, so I may have erred in writing she was Jewish
-- *IF* you hold to the position that "Jewishness" is exclusively a
self-selected characteristic.
  According to Israeli law, Ayn Rand -- no matter that she considered
herself an atheist -- was, in fact, Jewish, by virtue of her ancestry,
rather thanher philosophy.
  But granted, it's a debatable point, one which I haven't resolved in
my own mind, so your point is well-taken.

>Now, I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that you haven't
>actually *read* anything by Ayn Rand. My best guess is that you're
>simply parroting propaganda that was fed to you by your lying
>anti-semitic masters.

  I know this may be hard for you to believe, but yes, I HAVE, in fact,
read *some* of Ayn Rand's work -- and largely agreed with it, BTW.
  Haven't ever read "Atlas Shrugged," though, which is something I want
to do.
  Really, that silly crap about "parroting propaganda . . . by your
lyong anti-semitic masters"  is unnecessary. Especially since I'm not
an anti-semite by any means. Thus, you merely make yourself look dumb
when you make such slanders at people.

>Just for fun, why don't you post Ayn Rand's definition of 
>"selfishness" and critique it for us? I'll even give you a
>hint: Her definition is subtly different from the definition
>that you'll find in the dictionary.

  When is this due? Typed or hand-written? Pen or pencil? Extra credit?
 

>===========================================================
>Charles Don Hall, Licensed Philosopher  (chall@eco.twg.com)
>===========================================================

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW!"
"Never try to sell to an [Asian] Indian." -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 14:21:42 PDT 1996
Article: 99167 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Joe Sobran, Pat Buchanan vindicated [was: Joseph Sobran's "In Our Hands"]
Date: 19 Jun 1996 17:56:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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  Joe Sobran is the former columnist for William F. Buckley's "National
Review" magazine who was the victim of a vindictive campaign of
Jewish-American McCarthyism a few years ago, which resulted in this
very respected *mainstream* writer for a very respected *mainstream*
publication being fired from his job. 

  Forwarded without any editing, except for underlining, which I did to
selected passages:
>
>In 
>slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes: 
>>
>>
>>
>>"In Our Hands"
>>by Joseph Sobran
>>
>>  One isn't supposed to say this, but many people believe that Israel
>now
>>holds the White House, the Senate, and much of the American media in
>its
>>hands. This is what is known as an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.
>>
>>  The odd thing is that it is held by many Israelis. In an essay 
>   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>reprinted
>>in the May 27th issue of The New York Times, Ari Shavit, an Israeli
>>columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli killing of
more
>>than 100 Lebanese civilians in April: "We killed them out of a
certain
>>naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude that now, with the 
>               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>White          ****************************************************
>^^^^^
>*****
>>House, the Senate, and much of the American media in our hands, the 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>****************************************************************
>lives
>>of others do not count as much as our own..."
>>
>>In a single phrase -- "in our hands" -- Shavit has lighted up the
>American
>>political landscape like a flash of lightning. 
>>
>>Notice that Shavit assumes as an obvious fact what we Americans can 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>say
>^^^
>>publicly only at our own risk. It's surprising, and refreshing, to 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>find
>>such candor in an American newspaper (though his essay was reprinted
>from
>>the Israeli paper Haaretz). 
>>
>>The prescribed cant on the subject holds that Israel is a "reliable
>ally"
>>of the United States, despite Israel's long record of double-dealing
>                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>                       **********************************************
>>against this country, ranging from the killing of American sailors to
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>**********************************************************************
>>constant espionage and technology theft. The word "ally" implies that

>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>**********************************************************************
>the
>^^^
>***
>>relationship exists because it's in the interests of this country, 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>*******************************************************************
>though
>^^^^^^
>******
>>Israel's lobby is clearly devoted to the interests of Israel itself, 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>*********************************************************************
>and
>^^^
>***
>>it's childish to suggest otherwise.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>************************************
>>  You expect that from the Israeli lobby; lobbies are lobbies, after
>all.
>>  But it's unnerving that the White House, the Senate, and much of
the
>>American media should be "in our hands," as Shavit puts it. Bill
>Clinton,
>>a lover of peace since his college days, raised no protest when the
>>Israelis drove 400,000 innocent Lebanese out of their homes in
>>"retaliation" for rockets launched into Israel (wounding one Israeli)
>by a
>>faction over whom those 400,000 had no control.
>>
>>Congress, of course, was supine as usual at this latest extravagance
>of
>>Israeli "defense." Congress too is "in our hands." 
>>
>>  A recent article in The Washington Post likened the Israel lobby's
>power
>>to that of the gun and tobacco lobbies. But there is one enormous
>                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>difference. Newspapers like the Post aren't afraid to criticize the 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>gun
>^^^
>>and tobacco lobbies. They will say forthrightly that those lobbies 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>seek
>^^^^
>>goals that are dangerous for this country. They don't dare say as
much
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>of
>^^
>>the Israeli lobby. 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  But much of the press and electronic media are "in our hands" in a
>more
>>active sense: They supply misleading pro-Israel propaganda in the
>guise of
>>news and commentary, constantly praising Israeli "democracy" and
>ignoring
>>Israel's mistreatment of its non-Jewish minorities -- mistreatment
>which,
>>if any government inflicted it on a Jewish minority, would earn it
the
>>fierce opprobrium of our media. 
>>
>>  No decent American would think of reducing American Jews to the
>status of
>>Palestinians in Israel. The idea is almost absurd. Yet Americans are
>taxed
>>to subsidize the oppression of Palestinians, on the flimsy pretext
>that
>>they are helping an "ally" in America's own self-interest to be hated
>and
>>despised by the whole Muslim world. 
>>
>>  All this is interesting less for what it tells us about Israel than
>for
>>what it tells us about America. Frank discussion of Israel is 
>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>permitted in                   
>^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Israel, as Shavit's article illustrates. It's rarely permitted here.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Charges of anti-Semitism and a quiet but very effective boycott will 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>be
>^^
>>the reward of any journalist who calls attention to his own 
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>government's
>^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>-- and his own profession's -- servitude to Israeli interests.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>  Very few in America are doing anything to change this sorry state
of
>>affairs. Shavit wrote his article in the desperate hope of turning
>back
>>his countrymen and his government from a morally and politically
>perilous
>>course. At least he can hope. It's harder for us, when our own
>government
>>isn't in our hands. 
>>
>>=========end==============
>>
>>-- 
>>******************************************************************
>>What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
>>                                                                  *
>>The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
>>*******************************************************************

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 22:25:37 PDT 1996
Article: 33223 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Some niggers tried to rob my uncle
Date: 19 Jun 1996 18:57:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4q9ij5$e6t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31C74A5E.51D@cei.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 11:57:41 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33223 alt.politics.nationalism.white:23322 alt.skinheads:28913 alt.politics.usa.republican:219191 alt.politics.perot:49325

  First, let me say that I find the use of "nigger" offensive -- just
as I do the term "honkey" or "cracker" to refer to whites -- and do not
use it.
  However, I can sympathize with the writer's attitude.

In <31C74A5E.51D@cei.net> Centurion  writes: 
>
>I just wanted to share a little experience my aunt and uncle had a few

>years ago:
>
>I live in Little Rock, Arkansas, and we have a significant black 
>population here. There is one section of town (Baseline community, in 
>southwest Little Rock) which is deteriorating. Blacks are moving in, 
>whites are moving out. You know the story. My aunt and uncle went into
a 
>MegaMarket store and bought some groceries, and on the way out they
were 
>approached by three black kids. One of them said, "Give me your money,
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>white boy".
^^^^^^^^^^^^

  He didn't even promise to certify the groceries as KOSHER for the
money? :-) 

 These are the exact words he said. They tried to rob him 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

in 
>broad daylight and none of the three even had a weapon. Well, my uncle

>had a 2 liter coke in his sack and whipped it out and came down as
hard 
>as he could on the first one, which knocked him out cold.

  Hope that knocked some sense into the a--hole.

>second boy 
>jumped on him, and he whapped him with the coke too, but only knocked 
>him sprawling on the ground.

  Damn! Well, at least he hit 'em.

>the third kid was a coward and just ran 
>away. My aunt got a little hysterical, and wanted to call the police, 
>but my uncle insisted they leave because he knew the cops would arrest

>him and not the punks who tried to rob him. 

  Pitiful . . . and oh so true. :-(

>After all, he said they 
>looked like juveniles anyway. Personally, I think they got what they 
>deserved. And it is shit like this that makes you wonder why people
are 
>racist. Racism is reciprocal, and when a person is targeted because he
>is white, its no wonder they direct those feelings right back using
>the reverse criteria.

  Which doesn't make ANY kind of racism right, but a *little* more
understandable.

>I had a friend named Joe back in High School. He was a bit younger
>than me, and wasn't racist at all.

  Amazing how getting mugged and/or assaulted will change a person's
attitude, huh?

> Until one day he was jumped by a group of 
>black kids because he was white and had long hair. He knows this is
why, 
>because the black kids said something about his hair and his being
white 
>before he got beat. Consequently, Joe got suspended for a day, and the

>black kids were not punished at all. Public schools for ya.

  Again, pitiful but true.

>I went to Little Rock Mills High School, which was approx. 30% black.
We 
>had a talent show one day, which eventually was cancelled for vulgar 
>language used by one of the groups. The blacks interpreted this as a 
>race thing, because none of the black groups had gotten to perform.
>They went crazy and tore up the school, tearing down doors and
>fighting with the teachers. I just made a mental note, this is how
>blacks behave.
>
>Anyone else out there got some story to tell about why they are or 
>became racist? I don't have a problem with any other group in the
>world; just blacks, and American blacks specifically. I am interesting
>in hearing what other people have to say.

 Ironically, the white liberals always say, "Gimme ONE example of where
you saw a white person attacked by a black! Can't? You're a racist!"
  Then, when you relate an example out of personal experience as you
have, they say, "That's just anecdotal evidence! It doesn't count!"

>[  Centurion @ The Temple of Mithra  ]
>[ http://www.cei.net/~bob/index.html ]
>[         mailto:bob@cei.net         ]

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 19 22:29:49 PDT 1996
Article: 28913 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Some niggers tried to rob my uncle
Date: 19 Jun 1996 18:57:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4q9ij5$e6t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31C74A5E.51D@cei.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca11-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 11:57:41 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33223 alt.politics.nationalism.white:23322 alt.skinheads:28913 alt.politics.usa.republican:219191 alt.politics.perot:49325

  First, let me say that I find the use of "nigger" offensive -- just
as I do the term "honkey" or "cracker" to refer to whites -- and do not
use it.
  However, I can sympathize with the writer's attitude.

In <31C74A5E.51D@cei.net> Centurion  writes: 
>
>I just wanted to share a little experience my aunt and uncle had a few

>years ago:
>
>I live in Little Rock, Arkansas, and we have a significant black 
>population here. There is one section of town (Baseline community, in 
>southwest Little Rock) which is deteriorating. Blacks are moving in, 
>whites are moving out. You know the story. My aunt and uncle went into
a 
>MegaMarket store and bought some groceries, and on the way out they
were 
>approached by three black kids. One of them said, "Give me your money,
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>white boy".
^^^^^^^^^^^^

  He didn't even promise to certify the groceries as KOSHER for the
money? :-) 

 These are the exact words he said. They tried to rob him 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

in 
>broad daylight and none of the three even had a weapon. Well, my uncle

>had a 2 liter coke in his sack and whipped it out and came down as
hard 
>as he could on the first one, which knocked him out cold.

  Hope that knocked some sense into the a--hole.

>second boy 
>jumped on him, and he whapped him with the coke too, but only knocked 
>him sprawling on the ground.

  Damn! Well, at least he hit 'em.

>the third kid was a coward and just ran 
>away. My aunt got a little hysterical, and wanted to call the police, 
>but my uncle insisted they leave because he knew the cops would arrest

>him and not the punks who tried to rob him. 

  Pitiful . . . and oh so true. :-(

>After all, he said they 
>looked like juveniles anyway. Personally, I think they got what they 
>deserved. And it is shit like this that makes you wonder why people
are 
>racist. Racism is reciprocal, and when a person is targeted because he
>is white, its no wonder they direct those feelings right back using
>the reverse criteria.

  Which doesn't make ANY kind of racism right, but a *little* more
understandable.

>I had a friend named Joe back in High School. He was a bit younger
>than me, and wasn't racist at all.

  Amazing how getting mugged and/or assaulted will change a person's
attitude, huh?

> Until one day he was jumped by a group of 
>black kids because he was white and had long hair. He knows this is
why, 
>because the black kids said something about his hair and his being
white 
>before he got beat. Consequently, Joe got suspended for a day, and the

>black kids were not punished at all. Public schools for ya.

  Again, pitiful but true.

>I went to Little Rock Mills High School, which was approx. 30% black.
We 
>had a talent show one day, which eventually was cancelled for vulgar 
>language used by one of the groups. The blacks interpreted this as a 
>race thing, because none of the black groups had gotten to perform.
>They went crazy and tore up the school, tearing down doors and
>fighting with the teachers. I just made a mental note, this is how
>blacks behave.
>
>Anyone else out there got some story to tell about why they are or 
>became racist? I don't have a problem with any other group in the
>world; just blacks, and American blacks specifically. I am interesting
>in hearing what other people have to say.

 Ironically, the white liberals always say, "Gimme ONE example of where
you saw a white person attacked by a black! Can't? You're a racist!"
  Then, when you relate an example out of personal experience as you
have, they say, "That's just anecdotal evidence! It doesn't count!"

>[  Centurion @ The Temple of Mithra  ]
>[ http://www.cei.net/~bob/index.html ]
>[         mailto:bob@cei.net         ]

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 20 07:46:19 PDT 1996
Article: 23322 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Some niggers tried to rob my uncle
Date: 19 Jun 1996 18:57:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 108
Message-ID: <4q9ij5$e6t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31C74A5E.51D@cei.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca11-24.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 19 11:57:41 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:33223 alt.politics.nationalism.white:23322 alt.skinheads:28913 alt.politics.usa.republican:219191 alt.politics.perot:49325

  First, let me say that I find the use of "nigger" offensive -- just
as I do the term "honkey" or "cracker" to refer to whites -- and do not
use it.
  However, I can sympathize with the writer's attitude.

In <31C74A5E.51D@cei.net> Centurion  writes: 
>
>I just wanted to share a little experience my aunt and uncle had a few

>years ago:
>
>I live in Little Rock, Arkansas, and we have a significant black 
>population here. There is one section of town (Baseline community, in 
>southwest Little Rock) which is deteriorating. Blacks are moving in, 
>whites are moving out. You know the story. My aunt and uncle went into
a 
>MegaMarket store and bought some groceries, and on the way out they
were 
>approached by three black kids. One of them said, "Give me your money,
                                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>white boy".
^^^^^^^^^^^^

  He didn't even promise to certify the groceries as KOSHER for the
money? :-) 

 These are the exact words he said. They tried to rob him 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

in 
>broad daylight and none of the three even had a weapon. Well, my uncle

>had a 2 liter coke in his sack and whipped it out and came down as
hard 
>as he could on the first one, which knocked him out cold.

  Hope that knocked some sense into the a--hole.

>second boy 
>jumped on him, and he whapped him with the coke too, but only knocked 
>him sprawling on the ground.

  Damn! Well, at least he hit 'em.

>the third kid was a coward and just ran 
>away. My aunt got a little hysterical, and wanted to call the police, 
>but my uncle insisted they leave because he knew the cops would arrest

>him and not the punks who tried to rob him. 

  Pitiful . . . and oh so true. :-(

>After all, he said they 
>looked like juveniles anyway. Personally, I think they got what they 
>deserved. And it is shit like this that makes you wonder why people
are 
>racist. Racism is reciprocal, and when a person is targeted because he
>is white, its no wonder they direct those feelings right back using
>the reverse criteria.

  Which doesn't make ANY kind of racism right, but a *little* more
understandable.

>I had a friend named Joe back in High School. He was a bit younger
>than me, and wasn't racist at all.

  Amazing how getting mugged and/or assaulted will change a person's
attitude, huh?

> Until one day he was jumped by a group of 
>black kids because he was white and had long hair. He knows this is
why, 
>because the black kids said something about his hair and his being
white 
>before he got beat. Consequently, Joe got suspended for a day, and the

>black kids were not punished at all. Public schools for ya.

  Again, pitiful but true.

>I went to Little Rock Mills High School, which was approx. 30% black.
We 
>had a talent show one day, which eventually was cancelled for vulgar 
>language used by one of the groups. The blacks interpreted this as a 
>race thing, because none of the black groups had gotten to perform.
>They went crazy and tore up the school, tearing down doors and
>fighting with the teachers. I just made a mental note, this is how
>blacks behave.
>
>Anyone else out there got some story to tell about why they are or 
>became racist? I don't have a problem with any other group in the
>world; just blacks, and American blacks specifically. I am interesting
>in hearing what other people have to say.

 Ironically, the white liberals always say, "Gimme ONE example of where
you saw a white person attacked by a black! Can't? You're a racist!"
  Then, when you relate an example out of personal experience as you
have, they say, "That's just anecdotal evidence! It doesn't count!"

>[  Centurion @ The Temple of Mithra  ]
>[ http://www.cei.net/~bob/index.html ]
>[         mailto:bob@cei.net         ]

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 20 10:57:00 PDT 1996
Article: 44870 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.net66.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 20 Jun 1996 05:13:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4qamm6$gs7@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plido$f7s@news.usaor.net> <4pq6jp$isj@nadine.teleport.com> <4pusqg$7sa@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4q1ns6$i1r@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <40a_9606162146@tor250.org> <31C5CB44.7573@snowline.net> <4q5e15$9k6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <4q9vun$9a8@shiva.usa.net>
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In <4q9vun$9a8@shiva.usa.net> hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) writes: 
>
>In article <4q5e15$9k6@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>Charles (joebuck@ix.netcom.com) whines:
>
>	And, if there indeed HAD been such a "whisper campaign" in
>	Russia around the time of the Communist takeover there perhaps
>	we wouldn't have had to go through 70+ years of the Cold War and
>	the cancer of international Communism.
>
>So, now kosher food certification is responsible for the Russian
>Revolution and the Cold War!

  I only mentioned the above (re: "70+ years of the Cold War) because
one correspondent brought up the pre-war "whisper campaign."   

>If not for Hitler and the Nazi Party, Eastern Europe, especially East
>Germany, would not have fallen to Stalin and Communism would have
>caved in much sooner.

  Suffice it to say that this is *somewhat* debatable, to say the
least!

>Plus, Stalin would not have had the opportunity to start persecuting
>Russian Jews after the war.
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Whosoever runs after greatness, greatness runs away from him; he who
>runs from greatness, greatness follows him.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

  Why choose such a silly sig? It reeks of determinism, IMO. Seems to
cling to the false notion that "greatness" is inborn, not achieved.
Kinda like the idea that anyone born a Jew is one of God's "Chosen
People" i.e. "The Master Race," eh?
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 20 19:37:09 PDT 1996
Article: 23424 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 20 Jun 1996 19:44:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4qc9np$3s@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4prlsa$b5@portal.gmu.edu>   <4q9bqv$986@access5.digex.net> 
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In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 

>It isn't what goes into a man that makes him unclean, it's what comes
>out of him that makes him unclean.  If you want to be 'kosher', give
>food to the hungry.

>Max Kennedy

Max,

  It's not often that I find myself agreeing with anyone named
"Kennedy." ;-)
  But I must say, your two lines above constitute one of the most
beautiful, eloquent and meaningful pieces of prose I've encountered on
the Internet.
  Bravo!

   Joe Buck
 
  
   

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 20 19:55:30 PDT 1996
Article: 60589 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 20 Jun 1996 19:44:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4qc9np$3s@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4prlsa$b5@portal.gmu.edu>   <4q9bqv$986@access5.digex.net> 
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In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 

>It isn't what goes into a man that makes him unclean, it's what comes
>out of him that makes him unclean.  If you want to be 'kosher', give
>food to the hungry.

>Max Kennedy

Max,

  It's not often that I find myself agreeing with anyone named
"Kennedy." ;-)
  But I must say, your two lines above constitute one of the most
beautiful, eloquent and meaningful pieces of prose I've encountered on
the Internet.
  Bravo!

   Joe Buck
 
  
   

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 21 10:57:41 PDT 1996
Article: 99396 of alt.politics.radical-left
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Company manager admits rabbi paid $5000/day salary! [was:Re: KOSHER TAX RIPOFF-Canada]
Date: 20 Jun 1996 19:44:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <4qc9np$3s@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4prlsa$b5@portal.gmu.edu>   <4q9bqv$986@access5.digex.net> 
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In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 

>It isn't what goes into a man that makes him unclean, it's what comes
>out of him that makes him unclean.  If you want to be 'kosher', give
>food to the hungry.

>Max Kennedy

Max,

  It's not often that I find myself agreeing with anyone named
"Kennedy." ;-)
  But I must say, your two lines above constitute one of the most
beautiful, eloquent and meaningful pieces of prose I've encountered on
the Internet.
  Bravo!

   Joe Buck
 
  
   

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 23 08:12:56 PDT 1996
Article: 45383 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Sobran - Israel's "Amen Corner" OWNS Press, White House, Congress
Date: 23 Jun 1996 00:11:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4qi240$a9q@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31c5447a.67034811@news.lm.com> <4q5dbg$22h@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4q9jk1$1fq@shiva.usa.net> <4qhq7f$d4i@byatt.alaska.net> 
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In  joelr@winternet.com (Joel
Rosenberg) writes: 

>In article <4qhq7f$d4i@byatt.alaska.net> Henry Ayre 
writes:

>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>>>In article <4q5dbg$22h@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Charles (joebuck@ix.netcom.com) whines:

[deletia]

>>>Harry Katz

[deletia]

>Joel Rosenberg   |  joelr@winternet.com  | 
http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
----
>We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the 
>hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the 
>appalling silence of the good people.
>                        -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

  If you'd figure out how to work with the Internet procedure for
ascribing attributions your posts would be at least
semi-comprehensible.
  And another thing, about that sig: 'Tis true, in "Dr." King's
generation, that too many of "the good people" were notable for their
"appalling silence."
  However, thankfully, in my generation, with the advent of the
Internet, thinks have changed significantly, and we "good people" are
now among the most vocal. 
  Guess that's why so many of "the bad people" wanna restrict its
freedoms! :-) 
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 23 11:17:53 PDT 1996
Article: 45550 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!spool.mu.edu!caen!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Recipe of Hate: The "Kosher Tax" Scam
Date: 19 Jun 1996 18:26:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4q9go6$9f3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4pjti5$cbo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4plido$f7s@news.usaor.net> <4pq6jp$isj@nadine.teleport.com> <4pusqg$7sa@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4q1ns6$i1r@newsource.ihug.co.nz> 
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In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 
>
>p_stone@alchemy.co.nz (Ourobouros) wrote:
>
>>So what you are saying is that aluminium and stuff needs "K or U"
>>stamped on it not for Jews but for vegetarians?

  So even aluminum is kosher nowadays? Which side, the shiny or the
other? :-)

>>Forgive me if I'm wrong, but mushrooms aren't kosher*, however
vegetarians
>>will eat mushrooms.
>
>>McVay, please make a more substantial argument than vegetarians. 
BTW, how
>>do you think vegetarians survive in non-kosher stamping countries?
>
>This is certainly a *PC* argument by McVay.  Vegetarians are kosher!
>
>Max Kennedy
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 23 12:01:22 PDT 1996
Article: 61203 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: White House 'Drudge Report' revelations of interest
Date: 23 Jun 1996 00:31:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4qi391$b50@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca7-05.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 22  5:31:29 PM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:61203 alt.politics.usa.republican:221199 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:326057

  Chck out "The DRUDGE REPORT" for some spicy revelations about:
-- a possibly emotionally-unstable Craig Livingstone (the now EX-White
House Personnel Security Chief at theheart of the "Filegate Affair"); 

-- Stefanopolous's hypocrisy in now distancing himself from
Livingstone; an anticipated offer of BIG $$ to make oaula Jones shut
up;and, lastly,

-- Frank "Kreskin" Sesno's down-on-de-farm chit-chat with VP Algore.

  The DRUDGE REPORT is posted in alt.rumors (and possibly other
newsgroups) and also has its very own Web page.
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 23 18:33:36 PDT 1996
Article: 61291 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!netnews.nwnet.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.impeach.clinton
Subject: Peter Jennings: 'Filegate merely an example of inexperience?'
Date: 22 Jun 1996 04:23:39 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 17
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NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca11-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 21 11:23:39 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:61291 alt.politics.usa.republican:221387 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:326201 alt.impeach.clinton:49373

  Anyone else catch this the other night on ABC's nightly news with
Peter Jennings (he's that network's prize talking head from Canada who
never went to college, btw, isn't he?): in the course of introducing a
report about the White House's shocking, totalitarian-like misuse of
FBI files, Jennings raised the possibility that the disturbing incident
that's come to be called "Filegate" may have simply been due to
"inexperienced White House staffers."
  Imagine: it's 1973, and a network anchorperson is suggesting that the
break-in at The Watergate may simply have been the result of
"inexperienced staffers." 
  What's wrong with this picture?
  
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 24 06:58:59 PDT 1996
Article: 45662 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:06:28 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Message-ID: <4qk134$dlv@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23  1:06:28 PM CDT 1996

In <31cc1aff.9080036@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
writes: 
>
>ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer) wrote:
>
>>
>>I have not personally visited this huge Holocaust Museum in
Washington DC.
>>
>>One part of me wants to out of curiosity, but another part is
repelled by
>>the very idea.
>>It seems to me that these gigantic holocaust things appear to
celebrate
>>the Holocaust
>>more as a religious event than as something historical.
>>
>>And it also bothers me a great deal that although the Holocaust
occurred
>>in Europe
>>over a half-century ago, and happened to and by non-Americans, it is
now
>>funded by
>>American taxpayers and it takes up a big amount of real estate in our
>>nation's capital.
>>
>>What I'm trying to convey here is that the Museum is more of a
religious
>>monument
>>than anything else, and that is a violation of Church and State, is
it
>>not?
>>
>>Comments, anyone?
>>
>>And how can we have this thing un-funded, and even removed from our
>>capitol?
>
>	More than a religion, the Museum is motivated as a means of
>instilling guilt, and as a means of continuing support for the Jewish
>state of Israel, which is a religious state, which makes a mockery of
>the U.S. separation of church and state clause.
>	What can you do to bring in the wrecking ball? Study up a bit on
>the Holocaust/revisionist struggle and then tell your friends. One
>tells another,and he or she tells another, and so on. 
>	What effect does this museum have on the vistors? If you ever go
>there, check out the trash cans. The museum procedure is to hand out
>little card bios on alleged Holocaust victims, complete with photos.
>You will have to check out the trash cans every fifteen to twenty
>minutes because they are diligently emptied to keep anyone from
>noticing how many of these little bios are discarded, on the spot, by
>the  visitors. I personally retrieved about 20 of them from just one
>browse through about a third of the cans. I was made aware of the
>visitor practice after reading a complaint by a Jewish person who had
>suspicions and did the check himself. 

  What concerns me most is that this expensive, multi-million dollar
Memorial takes funds away from deserving Americans who could benefit
>from  those millions and millions of dollars of their tax money.
  How many stethescopes could those millions of US taxpayer dollars
buy? 
  How many X-ray machines could be purchased?
  How many youth recreation centers could be built?
  How many computers could be put in US schools with that money?
  How many families of the US servicemen and servicewomen killed in
Haiti, Bosnia and Somalia could be DECENTLY provided for by the US
Government with those millions of dollars? I mean, THEY (the surviving
families) get a measly $50,000 payment for the loss of their loved
ones, while million$ and million$ of tax dollars are given yearly to
maintain the Memorial -- which deals with an event in which not one
American was killed.
  Of course, the apologists for the Memorial will -- as they always
seem to do when one honestly questions the propriety of funding their
pet projects -- respond with, "Stop complaining! Those millions spent
on the Holocaust memorial are 'a drop in the bucket' compared to the
ENTIRE budget of the US Government."
  How can one argue with such evasive sophistry?
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 24 08:45:17 PDT 1996
Article: 61312 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: British Columbia Thought Police Handed Clubs
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:10:11 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Forwarded message follows:

In 
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes: 
>
>Date: Tue, 28 May 96 12:15:32 0000
>From: Orest Slepokura  Organization: x-files
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: slepokuo@cadvision.com
>Subject: gerald.html
>X-URL: http://www.nsnews.com/thisweek/gerald.html 
>
>http://www.nsnews.com/thisweek/gerald.html 
>
>**********************************
>Orest Slepokura
>slepokuo@cadvision.com
>**********************************
>
>
>THOUGHT POLICE GET CLUBS
>
>By Gerald Porter
>
>Executive Secretary B.C. Press Council
>
>For those who appreciate the blessings of free speech and the torments
of
>a free press, imagine the following happy scenario unfolding in your
home
>town:
>
>You speak out passionately at a rip-roaring town hall meeting, get
>reported in the paper, and then find yourself hauled up before a
tribunal
>whose politically-appointed members are armed to the teeth with powers
to
>fine and silence you - and they do, for your politically-incorrect
ideas. 
>
>It's even worse for the newspaper and the feckless reporter who quoted
>you. Sound crazy?
>
>Welcome to the brave new world of British Columbia after October
first,
>when the newly minted Human Rights Commission opens its doors. 
>
>And while the above scenario is admittedly dramatic, it will be
possible
>under the expanded powers and mandate of the new commission - powers
no
>body of political appointees should have in a democracy. 
>
>This Orwellian scenario should also explain why for more than two
years
>the B.C. Press Council has urged the provincial government to repeal
>controversial changes to the Human Rights Act, changes council firmly
>believe are unnecessary, unconstitutional and a genuine threat to free
>speech and a free press in this province. Your free speech, your free
>press. 
>
>This bizarre tale starts back in June 1993, when the provincial
government
>made seemingly minor amendments to the Human Rights Act, changes that
>alarmed newspapers because it looked like the government was trying to
>sneak in press controls through the Human Rights Council's back door. 
>
>"No, no," said the government, from Premier Mike Harcourt on down,
"you've
>got it all wrong."
>
>But two years later it appeared we didn't. 
>
>In June 1995, the government passed Bill 32, another Human Rights
>amendment, which gave Draconian powers to a beefed-up Human Rights
>Commission and established the tribunal to wield them.
>
>So, why is the Press Council, the self-regulating body of 127 B.C.
>newspapers, so concerned? Because the new Human Rights Act in B.C.
gives
>the tribunal (read government) the right to harass and punish
newspapers
>and journalists for doing their jobs; the incredible right to lay
>complaints against people who say or publish unpopular opinions
without
>waiting for a member of the public to complain (a new 'improvement'
since
>1993) - and then turns the felons over to its own tribunal to judge. 
>
>What criteria will the tribunal use in judging? Nothing less than
those
>seemingly minor amendments made to the act under Bill 33. 
>
>In Bill 33, by simply adding the words "publication" and "statement"
to
>the discriminatory publication provision in Section Two of the Human
>Rights Act, the government effectively included newspapers for the
first
>time. 
>
>Premier Harcourt said he did it because federal hate laws didn't go
far
>enough, although they clearly do and his government knew it. 
>
>The new Section Two also expanded the definition of what constituted
hate.
>It was now a crime, a thought crime, to "publish" or utter any
"statement"
>that "indicates discrimination or intention to discriminate" against
>anyone or a group, or that is "likely to expose a person or a group
... to
>hatred or contempt because of the race, color, ancestry, place of
origin,
>religion, marital status, family status, physical of mental
disability,
>sex, sexual orientation or age of that person..."
>
>When the press council asked: Just what did "likely to expose" or
>"intention" to expose mean? the government said it didn't know but it
>would let the Human Rights Council decide, a body now empowered,
>incidentally, to levy crushing fines against offenders.
>
>The press council also looked askance at another 'minor' change to the
>act: the removal of the provision that said "a person may, by speech
or in
>writing, freely express his opinion on a subject." That, as much as
>anything else, left a clear impression that the government was
prepared to
>run roughshod over the spirit of the Charter of Rights (Article Two of
the
>Charter guarantees a free press and free expression) in an effort to
>enforce an unconstitutional law that had one overriding objective - to
>harass and penalize those with "politically incorrect" ideas,
including
>those who merely publish, sell or display other people's views. 
>
>That impression was confirmed in June 1995, when, the government
passed
>Bill 32, which set up the new tribunal and armed it with the powers of
a
>mini-Inquisition to seek out and punish the "politically incorrect,"
or
>maybe just people the government doesn't like. 
>
>Late last year, press council chairman Robert Yanow asked the Attorney
>General to consider amending the act to exclude the news media from
its
>sweeping provisions.
>
>He also asked the government to reinstate the old "free speech"
provision,
>and wrote that the press council "would even be satisfied with a
reference
>to the Canadian Charter, as this would indicate that the provincial
>government respects those freedoms most cherished by Canadians."
Freedoms
>generations had fought and died for.
>
>Ujjal Dosanjh answered: no, no, and no; to which Yanow replied: "I
cannot
>understand why your government conceives that it must stand by
legislation
>which is obviously unlawful." But the answer seems clear. 
>
>No government in its right mind would want the people to know it had
just
>created a thought police armed with clubs. And certainly not during an
>election year.
>
>That's why you haven't heard much about it from the government, but
you
>will, in the fall, when it opens its doors for business. 
>
>For information call the B.C. Press Council at 683-2571.
>
>-- 
>******************************************************************
>What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
>                                                                  *
>The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
>*******************************************************************

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 24 08:45:19 PDT 1996
Article: 61316 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Joseph Sobran's "In Our Hands" (forwarded msg)
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:23:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Forwarded message:

In 
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes: 
>
>
>
>"In Our Hands"
>by Joseph Sobran
>
>One isn't supposed to say this, but many people believe that Israel
now
>holds the White House, the Senate, and much of the American media in
its
>hands. This is what is known as an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.
>
>The odd thing is that it is held by many Israelis. In an essay
reprinted
>in the May 27th issue of The New York Times, Ari Shavit, an Israeli
>columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli killing of more
>than 100 Lebanese civilians in April: "We killed them out of a certain
>naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude that now, with the
White
>House, the Senate, and much of the American media in our hands, the
lives
>of others do not count as much as our own..."
>
>In a single phrase -- "in our hands" -- Shavit has lighted up the
American
>political landscape like a flash of lightning. 
>
>Notice that Shavit assumes as an obvious fact what we Americans can
say
>publicly only at our own risk. It's surprising, and refreshing, to
find
>such candor in an American newspaper (though his essay was reprinted
from
>the Israeli paper Haaretz). 
>
>The prescribed cant on the subject holds that Israel is a "reliable
ally"
>of the United States, despite Israel's long record of double-dealing
>against this country, ranging from the killing of American sailors to
>constant espionage and technology theft. The word "ally" implies that
the
>relationship exists because it's in the interests of this country,
though
>Israel's lobby is clearly devoted to the interests of Israel itself,
and
>it's childish to suggest otherwise.
>
>You expect that from the Israeli lobby; lobbies are lobbies, after
all.
>But it's unnerving that the White House, the Senate, and much of the
>American media should be "in our hands," as Shavit puts it. Bill
Clinton,
>a lover of peace since his college days, raised no protest when the
>Israelis drove 400,000 innocent Lebanese out of their homes in
>"retaliation" for rockets launched into Israel (wounding one Israeli)
by a
>faction over whom those 400,000 had no control.
>
>Congress, of course, was supine as usual at this latest extravagance
of
>Israeli "defense." Congress too is "in our hands." 
>
>A recent article in The Washington Post likened the Israel lobby's
power
>to that of the gun and tobacco lobbies. But there is one enormous
>difference. Newspapers like the Post aren't afraid to criticize the
gun
>and tobacco lobbies. They will say forthrightly that those lobbies
seek
>goals that are dangerous for this country. They don't dare say as much
of
>the Israeli lobby. 
>
>But much of the press and electronic media are "in our hands" in a
more
>active sense: They supply misleading pro-Israel propaganda in the
guise of
>news and commentary, constantly praising Israeli "democracy" and
ignoring
>Israel's mistreatment of its non-Jewish minorities -- mistreatment
which,
>if any government inflicted it on a Jewish minority, would earn it the
>fierce opprobrium of our media. 
>
>No decent American would think of reducing American Jews to the status
of
>Palestinians in Israel. The idea is almost absurd. Yet Americans are
taxed
>to subsidize the oppression of Palestinians, on the flimsy pretext
that
>they are helping an "ally" in America's own self-interest to be hated
and
>despised by the whole Muslim world. 
>
>All this is interesting less for what it tells us about Israel than
for
>what it tells us about America. Frank discussion of Israel is
permitted in
>Israel, as Shavit's article illustrates. It's rarely permitted here.
>Charges of anti-Semitism and a quiet but very effective boycott will
be
>the reward of any journalist who calls attention to his own
government's
>-- and his own profession's -- servitude to Israeli interests.
>
>Very few in America are doing anything to change this sorry state of
>affairs. Shavit wrote his article in the desperate hope of turning
back
>his countrymen and his government from a morally and politically
perilous
>course. At least he can hope. It's harder for us, when our own
government
>isn't in our hands. 
>
>=========end==============
>
>-- 
>******************************************************************
>What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
>                                                                  *
>The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
>*******************************************************************

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 24 08:45:20 PDT 1996
Article: 61318 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.radical-left,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Abbé Pierre and the 8th Deadly Sin: Doubt [forwarded post]
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:27:09 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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Forwarded post:

In 
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes: 
>
>
>
>Mystifying Downfall / Onetime hero's new beliefs embarrass France 
>
>By Julian Nundy [Newsday Magazine]
>
>PARIS
>
>AS A BOY in Lyons in the 1920s, Henri Groues used to go with his
father on
>Sunday mornings to shelters for the homeless to wash the feet of the
poor.
>At other times, his father would tell him to gather up his favorite
toys
>and the boy would donate them to orphanages. 
>
>Henri's deeply Catholic father hoped to teach his son humility. It was
the
>beginning of a life of piety and devotion to the poor that was,
decades
>later, to put Henri - known to the public as Abbe Pierre - atop one
French
>popularity poll after another. 
>
>Known for angry outbursts about the fate of the homeless in a consumer
>society where the majority lives well, the bearded and bespectacled
face
>of Abbe Pierre topped by his black beret became synonymous with
charity.
>Rushing to the side of the unhappy and appealing for help, even when
aged
>and suffering himself from Parkinson's Disease, Abbe Pierre became,
for
>many, a living saint. 
>
>Until this year, when the national conscience became a national
embarrassment.
>At age 83, Abbe Pierre last month chose to support an old philosopher
>friend, Roger Garaudy, who claimed in a recently published book, "The
>Founding Myths of the State of Israel," that the extent of the Nazi
>extermination of Jews during World War II was exaggerated. 
>
>For French intellectuals there is no greater sin than to join this
>"negationist" camp. In fact, it's against French law. Garaudy has been
>indicted and awaits trial on charges of "minimizing crimes against
>humanity."
>The more Abbe Pierre tried to explain his gesture - defiantly at
first,
>then more and more apologetically - the more he sank into a quagmire
of
>his own making. In the early days after his first statement of support
for
>Garaudy, Abbe Pierre admitted he had not read the book. Then he said
he
>did not know that its publishers specialized in extreme right-wing
>literature.
>
>The focus of Abbe Pierre's blind friendship was a dubious one.
Garaudy,
>82, rose through the ranks of the French Communist Party during its
most
>Stalinist period. Expelled from the party's Politburo in 1970, he
later
>converted from his family's Protestant faith to Catholicism and later
to
>Islam.
>
>In his book, Garaudy says Zionist ideology amounts to "political
>exploitation, by a nation which did not exist when these crimes were
>committed, of arbitrarily exaggerated figures to try and prove that
the
>suffering of some was far greater than that of all the others; the
fact
>that it has become sacred makes us forget other, more dreadful
genocides."
>
>In a letter to the daily newspaper Le Monde, Abbe Pierre said it was
>"quite normal that we were given to exaggerations after the war."
Garaudy,
>he said, was "a true historian." His comments aroused a storm of
protest
>in the French media. Later, he was to moderate his statements but said
he
>regretted that a proper debate on the Holocaust could not be held -
which,
>of course, is a cherished goal of Holocaust deniers. 
>
>The daily Liberation said the negationist historians could "never have
>hoped for such a divine surprise." The most famous of them, Robert
>Faurisson, who has been banned from teaching history in French
>universities, even issued a press statement welcoming Abbe Pierre's
>support of his cause.
>
>It is ironic that Abbe Pierre should founder on this issue. During
World
>War II, unlike many of his countrymen, the young priest, who had
entered
>the Capuchin monastic order in 1931, was a courageous and active
member of
>the anti-Nazi Resistance. There he acquired the nom de guerre of Abbe
>Pierre. In particular, he was part of a network that smuggled French
Jews
>to safety in Switzerland.
>
>His time in the Resistance led to politics - he was briefly a member
of
>the postwar Chamber of Deputies, or lower house of parliament 
>- before beginning militant charity work. 
>
>On Feb. 1, 1954, Abbe Pierre burst into the studios of the French
national
>radio station during a spell of freezing weather. He was allowed to
read
>his appeal on the air. "My friends, help me!" he shouted. "Let us love
>each other just enough to stop this. We need 5,000 blankets and 300
big
>tents." Ordinary Parisians flocked to help him. 
>
>Over the decades, he was a constant figure at protests by the poor,
>appearing in front of the cameras and microphones to angrily denounce
a
>system that could not look after them. In one case, he was flown in a
>helicopter hired by a television channel to make it to a protest in
time
>for prime-time news.
>
>But even before the Garaudy episode, Abbe Pierre's high-profile
protests
>have become increasingly shrill and misdirected. On Bosnia, he gave
the
>French government instructions for the rescue of prisoners in Serb
camps,
>advocating the use of paratroopers to take them out while aerial
bombings
>wiped out Serb artillery around Sarajevo. It was, he said, inexcusable
for
>civilians to be massacred, "even if they are Muslims." He later
apologized
>for those words. 
>
>He demanded that the French national anthem "La Marseillaise" should
be
>rewritten to make it less warlike. During last year's presidential
>election campaign, he delivered a public judgment on the man who
>eventually won, Jacques Chirac, pronouncing him "incapable of running
>France."
>
>In March, Abbe Pierre appeared in a Paris church which 400 African
>immigrants had occupied in a campaign opposing residence papers.
Cardinal
>Jean Lustiger, archbishop of Paris, showed the first signs of Church
>irritation with Abbe Pierre, asking in a television interview why so
many
>had gathered spontaneously at the same spot. Lustiger said the
immigrants
>were manipulated and their protest could backfire. 
>
>When police eventually evacuated the church, Abbe Pierre accused Prime
>Minister Alain Juppe of being "a liar." He said the prime minister had
>promised that police would take no action. Such was Abbe Pierre's
>popularity that Juppe invited Abbe Pierre to his office for a public
>reconciliation.
>
>But by tearing at the scars of a French society rent during World War
II
>among victims of the German war machine, resisters and collaborators,
Abbe
>Pierre seems on his way to undoing a lifetime of good work. The French
>International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism has expelled him
>from its committee of honor. Joseph Sitruk, France's Grand Rabbi, said
his
>behavior displayed the old French Catholic anti-Semitism.
>
>And the weekly L'Express recalled that, railing against the Pope, Abbe
>Pierre said the pontiff should have retired at 75. As Abbe Pierre took
off
>for a two-month self-imposed exile from the public scene, L'Express
said
>the 83-year-old priest "thinks too much about others to the point that
he
>forgets that all well-ordered charity begins at home."
>
>
>[End]
>
>-- 
>******************************************************************
>What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
>                                                                  *
>The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
>*******************************************************************

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 24 22:37:32 PDT 1996
Article: 396107 of talk.politics.misc
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!news3.near.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: LSD, Myths and Clinton's spiritual advisor
Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:29:07 GMT
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  Right on, Max. This whole business about the Clintons' "spiritual
advisers" is extremely troubling stuff, to be sure.

In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 

>I have to repost this.  This is just TOO much.  Reads like a who's who
>resume into questionable "mental" research, and work with various
>unspecified government agencies and the UN.   This is the person that
>is helping the Clintons "talk to the dead".   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>IE, It's all there.  The LSD research, the use of myths reminscient of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Hitler interests and the occult, the
brainwashing/hynotism/music-ritual stuff, the "Goddess" kooky 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
religion/wiccan research, the government contacts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh, by the way, one quote indicates that Hillary Clinton AND the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>president used this person, who has been known to use both LSD and 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>hynotism to put people under so they can "talk with dead spirits".
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>----------------

>Recent Books:

[deletia]

>Dr. Jean Houston was the protégé and "adopted daughter" of the late
>anthropologist Margaret Mead,

  Margaret Mead! Gee wiz!
  As we now know, she was the victim of perhaps the most INCREDIBLE CON
IN THE ANNALS OF THE SOCIAL SCIENCES when, during her stay in Samoa to
study the natives' sexual culture, these same natives utterly
hoodwinked the "smart" and "enlightened" Western liberal Mead and
essentially bullshitted her at every turn regarding their ACTUAL
folkways. Apparently they were rather teed-off at her patronizing
liberal attitude.
  The hapless Mead returned to the US after this trip thinking she had
"discovered" something significant about the coming-of-age process in
"idyllic" Samoa, and her liberal Anglo colleagues immediately crowned
her as "The Queen of American Anthropology."
  Unfortunately, in her old age, after a lifetime of being regaled as
the epitome of what a "smart" should be, her biographer was able to
PROVE -- indeed, she as much as agreed with him, in fact -- that her
"ground-breaking study" of Samoan sexual culture was, in short, naive
trash. A tragic end to what everyone heretofore agreed had been the
"brilliant" career of the prototypical liberal academic.

[deletia]

>Additionally, Jean Houston has made cross-cultural studies of
>educational and
>healing methods in Asia and Africa. Her principal areas of interest
>apart from
>her work are theater, archaeology and the philosophical, societal and
>other
>implications of contemporary physics. Dr. Houston's mind has often
been called
>"a national treasure" and she has also been described as "the greatest
>American orator since William Jennings Bryan." 
>
>Jean Houston, Ph.D., is internationally known as a seminar leader and
consultant
>on human development. Her intensive, high-energy workshops blend myth,
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>history, philosophy and psychology with music, meditation and dance. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>High ritual experiences are created that re-enact the great myths ... 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Sounds pretty Nazistic to me. Hitler was into all that mythology-
mixed-with-high-drama-and-"heroic"-music as well, recall.

>As past president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology, Dr. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Houston has
>taught philosophy, psychology, and religion at Columbia University,
Hunter
>College, the New School for Social Research, Marymount College, the
University
>of California. In 1985 she was elected Distinguished Educator of the
Year by the
>National Teacher Educator Association. More recently, she received the
Gardner
>Murphy Award in Psychology, the Humanitarian of the Year (1993) award
>from  the
>INTA and the Lifetime Outstanding Creative Achievement Award from the
Creative
>Education Foundation (1994). 

  This is the "village" Hillary wants to propagandize the nation's
children with.

>She has written or co-authored fifteen books, including Public Like A 
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>Frog, The Hero and the Goddess . . . 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Recently, she has been working with UNICEF to implement some of
                                      ^^^^^^
  A U.N. connection, I see.

>these programs. Since the early 1980s, she has guided a year-long 
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>school in spiritual studies based on the ancient mystery schools. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Books by Jean Houston: 

[deletia]
>
>  Erwachen - 1987 / Droemersche Verlagsanstalt Th. Knaur Nachf 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  (Munich, Germany) 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  And they make snide jokes about Pat Buchanan's speeches sounding
better "in the original German" . . . 
  
[deletia]
>
>     A Feminine Myth of Creation - (with Dianna Vandenberg) 1988 /
J.H.   
>    Gattmer0Haarlem
>     (Holland) 
>
>     The Hero and The Goddess: The Odyssey as Mystery and Initiation -
1992 /  
>     Ballantine
>     Books (NY) 
>
>     Public Like a Frog: Entering the Lives of Three Great Americans -
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      1993 / Quest Books (IL) 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  What's the subtitle, "Channelling for the Masses"?

>     Manual for the Peacemaker: A Native American Journey of
Transformation -   
>     Fall, 1994 /
>     Quest Books (IL) 
>
>     A Mythic Life: Autobiography of Jean Houston - Spring, 1995 / 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Harter (San Francisco, CA) 

    Kinda like, "A Mythic Life: Autobiography of Adolf Hitler," one
supposes.

>     Marriage to the Soul: The Passion of Isis and Osiris - Fall, 1995
/  
>    Ballentine Books (NY) 
>
>Books by Jean Houston and Robert Masters: 
>
>     The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience - 1966 / Holt, Rinehart &
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Winston  (NY) 
>     Psychedelic Art - 1968 / Grove Press (NY) 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[deletia]

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 24 22:56:19 PDT 1996
Article: 61462 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!news3.near.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: LSD, Myths and Clinton's spiritual advisor
Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:29:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 172
Message-ID: <4qn1b3$1uf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4pccaa$ieo@news.tamu.edu> <31b9a347.6709930@buck.intelli-net.com> <1996Jun12.135009.24098@news.wrc.xerox.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca8-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  4:29:07 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:396107 alt.president.clinton:78685 alt.politics.clinton:249264 alt.politics.usa.republican:221756 alt.politics.democrats.d:90166 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:25842 alt.journalism:44369 alt.conspiracy:61462 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:326491

  Right on, Max. This whole business about the Clintons' "spiritual
advisers" is extremely troubling stuff, to be sure.

In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 

>I have to repost this.  This is just TOO much.  Reads like a who's who
>resume into questionable "mental" research, and work with various
>unspecified government agencies and the UN.   This is the person that
>is helping the Clintons "talk to the dead".   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>IE, It's all there.  The LSD research, the use of myths reminscient of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Hitler interests and the occult, the
brainwashing/hynotism/music-ritual stuff, the "Goddess" kooky 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
religion/wiccan research, the government contacts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh, by the way, one quote indicates that Hillary Clinton AND the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>president used this person, who has been known to use both LSD and 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>hynotism to put people under so they can "talk with dead spirits".
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>----------------

>Recent Books:

[deletia]

>Dr. Jean Houston was the protégé and "adopted daughter" of the late
>anthropologist Margaret Mead,

  Margaret Mead! Gee wiz!
  As we now know, she was the victim of perhaps the most INCREDIBLE CON
IN THE ANNALS OF THE SOCIAL SCIENCES when, during her stay in Samoa to
study the natives' sexual culture, these same natives utterly
hoodwinked the "smart" and "enlightened" Western liberal Mead and
essentially bullshitted her at every turn regarding their ACTUAL
folkways. Apparently they were rather teed-off at her patronizing
liberal attitude.
  The hapless Mead returned to the US after this trip thinking she had
"discovered" something significant about the coming-of-age process in
"idyllic" Samoa, and her liberal Anglo colleagues immediately crowned
her as "The Queen of American Anthropology."
  Unfortunately, in her old age, after a lifetime of being regaled as
the epitome of what a "smart" should be, her biographer was able to
PROVE -- indeed, she as much as agreed with him, in fact -- that her
"ground-breaking study" of Samoan sexual culture was, in short, naive
trash. A tragic end to what everyone heretofore agreed had been the
"brilliant" career of the prototypical liberal academic.

[deletia]

>Additionally, Jean Houston has made cross-cultural studies of
>educational and
>healing methods in Asia and Africa. Her principal areas of interest
>apart from
>her work are theater, archaeology and the philosophical, societal and
>other
>implications of contemporary physics. Dr. Houston's mind has often
been called
>"a national treasure" and she has also been described as "the greatest
>American orator since William Jennings Bryan." 
>
>Jean Houston, Ph.D., is internationally known as a seminar leader and
consultant
>on human development. Her intensive, high-energy workshops blend myth,
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>history, philosophy and psychology with music, meditation and dance. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>High ritual experiences are created that re-enact the great myths ... 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Sounds pretty Nazistic to me. Hitler was into all that mythology-
mixed-with-high-drama-and-"heroic"-music as well, recall.

>As past president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology, Dr. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Houston has
>taught philosophy, psychology, and religion at Columbia University,
Hunter
>College, the New School for Social Research, Marymount College, the
University
>of California. In 1985 she was elected Distinguished Educator of the
Year by the
>National Teacher Educator Association. More recently, she received the
Gardner
>Murphy Award in Psychology, the Humanitarian of the Year (1993) award
>from  the
>INTA and the Lifetime Outstanding Creative Achievement Award from the
Creative
>Education Foundation (1994). 

  This is the "village" Hillary wants to propagandize the nation's
children with.

>She has written or co-authored fifteen books, including Public Like A 
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>Frog, The Hero and the Goddess . . . 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Recently, she has been working with UNICEF to implement some of
                                      ^^^^^^
  A U.N. connection, I see.

>these programs. Since the early 1980s, she has guided a year-long 
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>school in spiritual studies based on the ancient mystery schools. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Books by Jean Houston: 

[deletia]
>
>  Erwachen - 1987 / Droemersche Verlagsanstalt Th. Knaur Nachf 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  (Munich, Germany) 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  And they make snide jokes about Pat Buchanan's speeches sounding
better "in the original German" . . . 
  
[deletia]
>
>     A Feminine Myth of Creation - (with Dianna Vandenberg) 1988 /
J.H.   
>    Gattmer0Haarlem
>     (Holland) 
>
>     The Hero and The Goddess: The Odyssey as Mystery and Initiation -
1992 /  
>     Ballantine
>     Books (NY) 
>
>     Public Like a Frog: Entering the Lives of Three Great Americans -
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      1993 / Quest Books (IL) 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  What's the subtitle, "Channelling for the Masses"?

>     Manual for the Peacemaker: A Native American Journey of
Transformation -   
>     Fall, 1994 /
>     Quest Books (IL) 
>
>     A Mythic Life: Autobiography of Jean Houston - Spring, 1995 / 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Harter (San Francisco, CA) 

    Kinda like, "A Mythic Life: Autobiography of Adolf Hitler," one
supposes.

>     Marriage to the Soul: The Passion of Isis and Osiris - Fall, 1995
/  
>    Ballentine Books (NY) 
>
>Books by Jean Houston and Robert Masters: 
>
>     The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience - 1966 / Holt, Rinehart &
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Winston  (NY) 
>     Psychedelic Art - 1968 / Grove Press (NY) 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[deletia]

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 24 22:59:54 PDT 1996
Article: 249264 of alt.politics.clinton
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!news3.near.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: LSD, Myths and Clinton's spiritual advisor
Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:29:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 172
Message-ID: <4qn1b3$1uf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4pccaa$ieo@news.tamu.edu> <31b9a347.6709930@buck.intelli-net.com> <1996Jun12.135009.24098@news.wrc.xerox.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca8-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  4:29:07 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:396107 alt.president.clinton:78685 alt.politics.clinton:249264 alt.politics.usa.republican:221756 alt.politics.democrats.d:90166 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:25842 alt.journalism:44369 alt.conspiracy:61462 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:326491

  Right on, Max. This whole business about the Clintons' "spiritual
advisers" is extremely troubling stuff, to be sure.

In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 

>I have to repost this.  This is just TOO much.  Reads like a who's who
>resume into questionable "mental" research, and work with various
>unspecified government agencies and the UN.   This is the person that
>is helping the Clintons "talk to the dead".   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>IE, It's all there.  The LSD research, the use of myths reminscient of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Hitler interests and the occult, the
brainwashing/hynotism/music-ritual stuff, the "Goddess" kooky 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
religion/wiccan research, the government contacts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh, by the way, one quote indicates that Hillary Clinton AND the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>president used this person, who has been known to use both LSD and 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>hynotism to put people under so they can "talk with dead spirits".
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>----------------

>Recent Books:

[deletia]

>Dr. Jean Houston was the protégé and "adopted daughter" of the late
>anthropologist Margaret Mead,

  Margaret Mead! Gee wiz!
  As we now know, she was the victim of perhaps the most INCREDIBLE CON
IN THE ANNALS OF THE SOCIAL SCIENCES when, during her stay in Samoa to
study the natives' sexual culture, these same natives utterly
hoodwinked the "smart" and "enlightened" Western liberal Mead and
essentially bullshitted her at every turn regarding their ACTUAL
folkways. Apparently they were rather teed-off at her patronizing
liberal attitude.
  The hapless Mead returned to the US after this trip thinking she had
"discovered" something significant about the coming-of-age process in
"idyllic" Samoa, and her liberal Anglo colleagues immediately crowned
her as "The Queen of American Anthropology."
  Unfortunately, in her old age, after a lifetime of being regaled as
the epitome of what a "smart" should be, her biographer was able to
PROVE -- indeed, she as much as agreed with him, in fact -- that her
"ground-breaking study" of Samoan sexual culture was, in short, naive
trash. A tragic end to what everyone heretofore agreed had been the
"brilliant" career of the prototypical liberal academic.

[deletia]

>Additionally, Jean Houston has made cross-cultural studies of
>educational and
>healing methods in Asia and Africa. Her principal areas of interest
>apart from
>her work are theater, archaeology and the philosophical, societal and
>other
>implications of contemporary physics. Dr. Houston's mind has often
been called
>"a national treasure" and she has also been described as "the greatest
>American orator since William Jennings Bryan." 
>
>Jean Houston, Ph.D., is internationally known as a seminar leader and
consultant
>on human development. Her intensive, high-energy workshops blend myth,
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>history, philosophy and psychology with music, meditation and dance. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>High ritual experiences are created that re-enact the great myths ... 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Sounds pretty Nazistic to me. Hitler was into all that mythology-
mixed-with-high-drama-and-"heroic"-music as well, recall.

>As past president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology, Dr. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Houston has
>taught philosophy, psychology, and religion at Columbia University,
Hunter
>College, the New School for Social Research, Marymount College, the
University
>of California. In 1985 she was elected Distinguished Educator of the
Year by the
>National Teacher Educator Association. More recently, she received the
Gardner
>Murphy Award in Psychology, the Humanitarian of the Year (1993) award
>from  the
>INTA and the Lifetime Outstanding Creative Achievement Award from the
Creative
>Education Foundation (1994). 

  This is the "village" Hillary wants to propagandize the nation's
children with.

>She has written or co-authored fifteen books, including Public Like A 
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>Frog, The Hero and the Goddess . . . 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Recently, she has been working with UNICEF to implement some of
                                      ^^^^^^
  A U.N. connection, I see.

>these programs. Since the early 1980s, she has guided a year-long 
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>school in spiritual studies based on the ancient mystery schools. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Books by Jean Houston: 

[deletia]
>
>  Erwachen - 1987 / Droemersche Verlagsanstalt Th. Knaur Nachf 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  (Munich, Germany) 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  And they make snide jokes about Pat Buchanan's speeches sounding
better "in the original German" . . . 
  
[deletia]
>
>     A Feminine Myth of Creation - (with Dianna Vandenberg) 1988 /
J.H.   
>    Gattmer0Haarlem
>     (Holland) 
>
>     The Hero and The Goddess: The Odyssey as Mystery and Initiation -
1992 /  
>     Ballantine
>     Books (NY) 
>
>     Public Like a Frog: Entering the Lives of Three Great Americans -
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      1993 / Quest Books (IL) 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  What's the subtitle, "Channelling for the Masses"?

>     Manual for the Peacemaker: A Native American Journey of
Transformation -   
>     Fall, 1994 /
>     Quest Books (IL) 
>
>     A Mythic Life: Autobiography of Jean Houston - Spring, 1995 / 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Harter (San Francisco, CA) 

    Kinda like, "A Mythic Life: Autobiography of Adolf Hitler," one
supposes.

>     Marriage to the Soul: The Passion of Isis and Osiris - Fall, 1995
/  
>    Ballentine Books (NY) 
>
>Books by Jean Houston and Robert Masters: 
>
>     The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience - 1966 / Holt, Rinehart &
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Winston  (NY) 
>     Psychedelic Art - 1968 / Grove Press (NY) 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[deletia]

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 25 07:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 61562 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Lost History: Pierre Salinger & 1980 Taboo
Date: 25 Jun 1996 04:31:18 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4qnq2m$p3g@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qn6qk$k5b@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca17-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 11:31:18 PM CDT 1996

In <4qn6qk$k5b@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> rparry@ix.netcom.com(Robert
Parry ) writes: 
>
>The new issue of The Consortium has been posted on the Web.
>
>The lead story recounts how longtime ABC News' Paris bureau chief
>Pierre Salinger concluded that the 1980 Reagan-Bush campaign did
>sabotage President Carter's Iran hostage negotiations.  Based on
>evidence from Paris, Salinger learned that the Republicans were
>assisted in the plot by conservative Western spy agencies, which
sealed
>the deal by shipping weapons to Iran.

  Gee, Pierre Salinger used to be JFK's Press Secretary, no?
  Wonder if he *may* have been politically-motivated in "learning" this
information. All too too often, ideologues "learn" only what they WANT
to "learn."

>Salinger included his October Surprise findings in the manuscript for
>his memoirs, "P.S."  But American readers of the memoirs were spared
>the troubling information.   Salinger's editors at St. Martin's press
>deleted the evidence from the English-language version, apparently to
>avoid having the book ridiculed by reviewers, another case of Lost
>History.
>
>The second story describes what Colin Powell learned during his first
>tour in Vietnam.  In 1963, as an adviser, he led an ARVN unit he led
>the South Vietnamese soldiers through the A Shau Valley, burning down
>Montagnard villages as they marched.  This issue's editorial looks at
>Bob Dole and the character issue.
>
>The Consortium is located at http://www.delve.com/consort.html
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 25 08:52:41 PDT 1996
Article: 25842 of alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!news.ultranet.com!bigboote.WPI.EDU!news3.near.net!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.journalism,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: LSD, Myths and Clinton's spiritual advisor
Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:29:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 172
Message-ID: <4qn1b3$1uf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4pccaa$ieo@news.tamu.edu> <31b9a347.6709930@buck.intelli-net.com> <1996Jun12.135009.24098@news.wrc.xerox.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca8-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  4:29:07 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.misc:396107 alt.president.clinton:78685 alt.politics.clinton:249264 alt.politics.usa.republican:221756 alt.politics.democrats.d:90166 alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:25842 alt.journalism:44369 alt.conspiracy:61462 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:326491

  Right on, Max. This whole business about the Clintons' "spiritual
advisers" is extremely troubling stuff, to be sure.

In  mkennedy@iglou.com (Max Kennedy) writes: 

>I have to repost this.  This is just TOO much.  Reads like a who's who
>resume into questionable "mental" research, and work with various
>unspecified government agencies and the UN.   This is the person that
>is helping the Clintons "talk to the dead".   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>IE, It's all there.  The LSD research, the use of myths reminscient of
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Hitler interests and the occult, the
brainwashing/hynotism/music-ritual stuff, the "Goddess" kooky 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
religion/wiccan research, the government contacts.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Oh, by the way, one quote indicates that Hillary Clinton AND the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>president used this person, who has been known to use both LSD and 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>hynotism to put people under so they can "talk with dead spirits".
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>----------------

>Recent Books:

[deletia]

>Dr. Jean Houston was the protégé and "adopted daughter" of the late
>anthropologist Margaret Mead,

  Margaret Mead! Gee wiz!
  As we now know, she was the victim of perhaps the most INCREDIBLE CON
IN THE ANNALS OF THE SOCIAL SCIENCES when, during her stay in Samoa to
study the natives' sexual culture, these same natives utterly
hoodwinked the "smart" and "enlightened" Western liberal Mead and
essentially bullshitted her at every turn regarding their ACTUAL
folkways. Apparently they were rather teed-off at her patronizing
liberal attitude.
  The hapless Mead returned to the US after this trip thinking she had
"discovered" something significant about the coming-of-age process in
"idyllic" Samoa, and her liberal Anglo colleagues immediately crowned
her as "The Queen of American Anthropology."
  Unfortunately, in her old age, after a lifetime of being regaled as
the epitome of what a "smart" should be, her biographer was able to
PROVE -- indeed, she as much as agreed with him, in fact -- that her
"ground-breaking study" of Samoan sexual culture was, in short, naive
trash. A tragic end to what everyone heretofore agreed had been the
"brilliant" career of the prototypical liberal academic.

[deletia]

>Additionally, Jean Houston has made cross-cultural studies of
>educational and
>healing methods in Asia and Africa. Her principal areas of interest
>apart from
>her work are theater, archaeology and the philosophical, societal and
>other
>implications of contemporary physics. Dr. Houston's mind has often
been called
>"a national treasure" and she has also been described as "the greatest
>American orator since William Jennings Bryan." 
>
>Jean Houston, Ph.D., is internationally known as a seminar leader and
consultant
>on human development. Her intensive, high-energy workshops blend myth,
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>history, philosophy and psychology with music, meditation and dance. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>High ritual experiences are created that re-enact the great myths ... 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Sounds pretty Nazistic to me. Hitler was into all that mythology-
mixed-with-high-drama-and-"heroic"-music as well, recall.

>As past president of the Association for Humanistic Psychology, Dr. 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   
                                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Houston has
>taught philosophy, psychology, and religion at Columbia University,
Hunter
>College, the New School for Social Research, Marymount College, the
University
>of California. In 1985 she was elected Distinguished Educator of the
Year by the
>National Teacher Educator Association. More recently, she received the
Gardner
>Murphy Award in Psychology, the Humanitarian of the Year (1993) award
>from  the
>INTA and the Lifetime Outstanding Creative Achievement Award from the
Creative
>Education Foundation (1994). 

  This is the "village" Hillary wants to propagandize the nation's
children with.

>She has written or co-authored fifteen books, including Public Like A 
                                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>Frog, The Hero and the Goddess . . . 
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Recently, she has been working with UNICEF to implement some of
                                      ^^^^^^
  A U.N. connection, I see.

>these programs. Since the early 1980s, she has guided a year-long 
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>school in spiritual studies based on the ancient mystery schools. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Books by Jean Houston: 

[deletia]
>
>  Erwachen - 1987 / Droemersche Verlagsanstalt Th. Knaur Nachf 
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  (Munich, Germany) 
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  And they make snide jokes about Pat Buchanan's speeches sounding
better "in the original German" . . . 
  
[deletia]
>
>     A Feminine Myth of Creation - (with Dianna Vandenberg) 1988 /
J.H.   
>    Gattmer0Haarlem
>     (Holland) 
>
>     The Hero and The Goddess: The Odyssey as Mystery and Initiation -
1992 /  
>     Ballantine
>     Books (NY) 
>
>     Public Like a Frog: Entering the Lives of Three Great Americans -
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      1993 / Quest Books (IL) 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  What's the subtitle, "Channelling for the Masses"?

>     Manual for the Peacemaker: A Native American Journey of
Transformation -   
>     Fall, 1994 /
>     Quest Books (IL) 
>
>     A Mythic Life: Autobiography of Jean Houston - Spring, 1995 / 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Harter (San Francisco, CA) 

    Kinda like, "A Mythic Life: Autobiography of Adolf Hitler," one
supposes.

>     Marriage to the Soul: The Passion of Isis and Osiris - Fall, 1995
/  
>    Ballentine Books (NY) 
>
>Books by Jean Houston and Robert Masters: 
>
>     The Varieties of Psychedelic Experience - 1966 / Holt, Rinehart &
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
      Winston  (NY) 
>     Psychedelic Art - 1968 / Grove Press (NY) 
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[deletia]

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 25 09:34:44 PDT 1996
Article: 61596 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Hillary admits 'channelling' Ghandi, Eleanor Roosevelt
Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:44:06 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 59
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In

"D. Braun"  writes: 
>
>
>
>On 24 Jun 1996, Kurt Warner wrote:
>
>> joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>> >  HRC has admitted, in her national radio show, having channelled
the
>> >late Mahatma Ghandi and Eleanor Roosevelt.
>>
>> I just heard on the news there's a new book out that says Hillary
has
>> consulted a psychic and has had "imaginary conversations with
historic
>> figures." I had heard about Hillary's psychic a couple years ago
prior to
>> many of the posts from leftists criticizing Nancy Reagan... As usual
>> these leftists are caught in the liberal catch-22... Do they now
>> criticize Hillary? Of course not...
>
>A bit of a leap from "imaginary conversations with historic figures"
to
>actually using an astrologer to set one's schedule--- including
weighty
>forign policy summits, vs. a little bit of imagery to strengthen one's
>self worth, don't you think? (The Reagans)
>
>Ooops, I forgot--- you have an aversion to unbiased, critical
>thought, and rely on spreading propaganda fueled by misinformation and
>partisan hatred.  That's great by me--- it just makes the jokers who
>differentiate themselves from intelligent folks by salting every
paragraph
>with "you leftists" look like idiots. You're an idiot, Kurt, and no
one
>believes your propaganda--- except idealogues like yourself--- via
>self-deceiving hatred of anyone who disagrees with them.
>
>		Dave Braun
>
  And, as we know, you, Braunschweiger, are the PINNACLE of
nonpartisanship, correct?
  Pot, kettle, black.

>> >  One just wishes hubby Wild Bill would likewise fess up to having
>> >"channelled" ;-) Gennifer Flowers on more than one evening,
moreover.

>>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 25 09:34:49 PDT 1996
Article: 61597 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Hillary admits 'channelling' Ghandi, Eleanor Roosevelt
Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:45:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 36
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In <4qmpqo$r6a@news.tamu.edu> mdk9972@acs.tamu.edu writes: 
>
>"Candice M. Jackson"  wrote:
>>
>>	Where do you get your news? 
>>	That "pinnacle of accuracy" Rush Limbaugh??
>>
>>	--C.
>
>Actually, Rush Limbaugh doesn't have a weekend program.  This story
was 
>WIDELY reported by virtually every major news organization in the 
>country over the weekend.  The quote, and it is accurate, came from
Bob 
>Woodward's new book The Choice.  The Washington Post has been
publishing 
>sections for several days now.  Additionally, the Whitehouse has 
>confirmed the content of the quote.
>
>For you to not have heard this, or believe it, from where do YOU get
your 
>news?!
>
>
>Don't let your hatred of Rush Limbaugh cloud your judgement.......
>
>
>Mark Klemm
>
  Well said, Mr. Klemm.
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 25 13:29:09 PDT 1996
Article: 61624 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FED.LAW TO BAN CCW
Date: 24 Jun 1996 13:40:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4qm5sg$7iq@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qkvfa$gur@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  6:40:32 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:61624 talk.politics.guns:275224

In <4qkvfa$gur@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> o.r@ix.netcom.com (octavio
rankin ) writes: 
>
> I've been trying to post this since last week.However since I rely on
>NETCOM for my service, I guess I should consider myself lucky to have
>made it this far.Anyhow here goes.
> Last week on the evening news I heard that Senator Frank R.
Lautenberg
>of New Jersey is Proposing a bill called "The Gun Control Act of
1996."
>This bill is suppose to ban ccw by Federal Law.I called Lautenberg's
>office and was told by an aid, that it was true what I had heard and
>the bill was so new that it did not have a number to it.Has any one
>else heard about this? I called the NRA-ILA and they were not aware of
>it either.Once I get a reply from the Senator I'll post it.
>
>  O.R
> BE PREPARED

  Interesting.
  What's equally of interest is that big-time "Friend of Israel"
Senator Lautenberg (D-NJ) apparently wants to further restrict the
AMERICAN people's right to keep and bear arms -- all the while when in
Israel, the person who DOESN'T keep and bear arms in order to defend
himself is frowned on.
  And lemme tellya, walking the streets of any American city during the
daytime is infinitely more dangerous than traipsing around Tel Aviv at
night. Literally.

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 25 16:11:42 PDT 1996
Article: 275224 of talk.politics.guns
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.guns
Subject: Re: FED.LAW TO BAN CCW
Date: 24 Jun 1996 13:40:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4qm5sg$7iq@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qkvfa$gur@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  6:40:32 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:61624 talk.politics.guns:275224

In <4qkvfa$gur@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> o.r@ix.netcom.com (octavio
rankin ) writes: 
>
> I've been trying to post this since last week.However since I rely on
>NETCOM for my service, I guess I should consider myself lucky to have
>made it this far.Anyhow here goes.
> Last week on the evening news I heard that Senator Frank R.
Lautenberg
>of New Jersey is Proposing a bill called "The Gun Control Act of
1996."
>This bill is suppose to ban ccw by Federal Law.I called Lautenberg's
>office and was told by an aid, that it was true what I had heard and
>the bill was so new that it did not have a number to it.Has any one
>else heard about this? I called the NRA-ILA and they were not aware of
>it either.Once I get a reply from the Senator I'll post it.
>
>  O.R
> BE PREPARED

  Interesting.
  What's equally of interest is that big-time "Friend of Israel"
Senator Lautenberg (D-NJ) apparently wants to further restrict the
AMERICAN people's right to keep and bear arms -- all the while when in
Israel, the person who DOESN'T keep and bear arms in order to defend
himself is frowned on.
  And lemme tellya, walking the streets of any American city during the
daytime is infinitely more dangerous than traipsing around Tel Aviv at
night. Literally.

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 26 08:38:19 PDT 1996
Article: 61811 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Hillary admits 'channelling' Ghandi, Eleanor Roosevelt
Date: 25 Jun 1996 04:55:08 GMT
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In 
"D. Braun"  rants: 

>On 24 Jun 1996, Charles wrote:
>
>> In
>>

>> "D. Braun"  writes:

[deletia]

>Prove it, anti-semite shit head.

  The name-calling has already begun, in the very first line of your
hate-filled rant, no less!
 
>  Kurt goes way beyond facts in proving
>his case on many issues, and does not admit he was misinformed when
>shown to be --- hence I
>have refered to him as a propagandist, and an idiot

  Let's see: I'm supposedly an "anti-semite," and Kurt is an "idiot."
What'd we do to deserve such accolades from such an open-minded person
as yourself?  

> because he does a poor
>job at that.  On the other hand, on a recent post, I agreed with him
>completely (a freedom of speech issue regarding the neo-nazis right to
>march in Skokie, Ill).

  You supported the alleged "right" of those disgusting Nazis to march
through Skokie, a town loaded with Holocaust survivors. 
  OTOH, I opposed allowing that march to occur.
  But I'm the "anti-semite," huh, Braun? Go figure!

>  You on the other hand have repeatedly shown that
>you have no regard for the facts---- eg., the several week long
>nonesence about the "kosher tax rip-off". 

  Funny but, as I recall, I'm the one who actually kept returning to
the facts in that thread -- which, I see, unnerved you so. Apparently
some people would just prefer to engage in silly name calling. Now who
could THAT be?

> The only conclusion that can be made
>about you, based on your posts, is that you are willing to repeat
>obviously false propaganda for the pleasure you get in feeding
>anti-jewish propaganda; this makes you an anti-semite, by my OBJECTIVE
>analysis.

  You, "OBJECTIVE"? . . . Uh, not quite!

> Show me where in fact I have been blinded by partisan bias, to
>the point of making up facts to manufacture propaganda, and I'll send
you
>a dollar for each WORD of the post in question. Humor based on obvious
>exageration dosen't count.  Your ramblings about jews WOULD count as
>biased speech, although currently, no politicians overtly engage in
such hate
>speech.

  Last I heard, Pat Buchanan and Joe Sobran, former longtime columnist
for William F. Buckley Jr.'s very mainstream-conservative "National
Review" magazine, were just two of the more prominent individuals
regularly being slandered by your intolerant type.
 
> Pot kettle black? No.  BTW, I happen to like sausages, except >I
prefer hot italians. I'm not fond of liverwurst at all.

  Like I said, you're just chopped liver to me. :-)

>Let's see, maybe we can have fun with your name:
>
>Charlie! (cheap perfume)
>
>Chuckie Cheese (A big plastic rat mascot of crappy pizzerias)
>
>Charlie Brown (NOT! He is a much superior being to you)
>
>Charlietan (Charlatan: getting warmer here.  Def.: one making usually
>showy or pretenses to knowledge or ability).
>
>Finally, I'll save you the trouble--- wouldn't want you to over-tax
your
>"brain".
>
>"I know that's what you are, what am I?"
>
>		Dave Braun
>
>
>>
>> >> >  One just wishes hubby Wild Bill would likewise fess up to
having
>> >> >"channelled" ;-) Gennifer Flowers on more than one evening,
>> moreover.
>>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>> --
>> "Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
>> "You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
>>  BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
>> "I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'"
>>         -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"
>>
>>
>
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 26 08:38:21 PDT 1996
Article: 61830 of alt.conspiracy
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From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politcs.perot
Subject: Elie Wiesel affectionately recalls Kaganovitch [forwarded post]
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:32:09 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 85
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Forwarded msg:

In 
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes: 
>
>
>Here's how Stuart Kahan describes his uncle, Lazar Moiseyevich
Kaganovich,
>in his memoir The Wolf of The Kremlin [William Morrow: New York, 1987,
pp.
>14-15]:
>
>"...Stalin's closest confidant, the chairman of the Soviet Presidium,
the
>man who set up the amalgamation of the state security forces that
later
>became the infamous KGB, the man who personally supervised the purges
that
>ran rampant through Russia in the thirties and forties, the man who
>instituted more restrictions and quotas on the Jews than anyone else,
the
>man who urged and orchestrated the deaths of 20 million people...the
>ultimate Jew-hater himself, and the only Jew in the hierarchy."
>
>However, when the name Lazar Kaganovitch crops up in a passage in Elie
>Wiesel's memoir Legends of Our Time [Holt,Rinehart and Winston: New
>York,1968, p.156], it is given a totally different spin. Here's what
>happened: 
>
>Elie Wiesel, a Holocaust survivor, novelist, and future Nobel Peace
Prize
>laureate [1986], was in Moscow sometime in the mid-1960s, where he
joined
>a crowd of his co-religionist Jews. He describes a street celebration
>during which a young Jew in the crowd began to call out the names of
>accomplished and celebrated Soviet Jews. With each name, the "crowd
roared
>back its approval."  
>
>Then:
>
>"Unthinking, he chose the name of one long forgotten: 'Long live Lazar
>Kaganovitch!' Someone near me asked jokingly whether Kaganovitch was
still
>alive. Yes, he is still alive, but only the Jews remember him. I
wonder if
>it ever crossed his mind that a day would come when he name would be
>trumpeted aloud outside the Jewish synagogue, while he himself was
>banished from the Kremlin walls."  
>
>After which, Wiesel makes no more references to Kaganovitch,
sentimental
>or otherwise. 
>
>Certainly, Wiesel expressed none of his characteristic outrage that
the
>name of Lazar Kaganovitch (a mass murderer, after all) should have
been
>loudly cheered  by his fellow Jews or had been the object of easygoing
>banter. 
>
>It's both telltale and interesting that a recurring motif of Wiesel's
1968
>memoir had been the need to remember the innocent victims and guilty
>perpetrators of the Holocaust.  
>
>Needless to say, Wiesel is grotesquely mistaken when he says "only the
>Jews remember" Lazar Kaganovitch. 
>
>More than Judeocentric, Wiesel's attitude is utterly solipsistic, when
one
>considers that the name Lazar Kaganovitch has the same resonance for
>Russian and Ukrainian ears as the name Heinrich Himmler has for Jewish
>ears.
>
>Orest Slepokura
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Wed Jun 26 08:38:22 PDT 1996
Article: 61846 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Hillary admits 'channelling' Ghandi, Eleanor Roosevelt
Date: 24 Jun 1996 03:23:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <4ql1nv$kut@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 10:23:43 PM CDT 1996
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  HRC has admitted, in her national radio show, having channelled the
late Mahatma Ghandi and Eleanor Roosevelt.
  One just wishes hubby Wild Bill would likewise fess up to having
"channelled" ;-) Gennifer Flowers on more than one evening, moreover. 

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 27 08:58:34 PDT 1996
Article: 62106 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!lamarck.sura.net!news.uky.edu!news.campus.mci.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Here's WHY Hillary "Channels" Spirits
Date: 25 Jun 1996 17:06:43 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <4qp6b3$b4j@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31cfc6db.5286320@news.lm.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca6-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:06:43 PM CDT 1996

In  ckile@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu (Crystal
Kile) writes: 

[deleted]

>After all, 
>it's not like the First Lady is relying 
>on some astrologer-to-the-Hollywood-stars to plan Her Husband's every
move.

  Yeah, agreed: THAT thing with THAT First Lady was bad enough.
  However, while Mrs. Reagan consulted an astrologer merely for
guidance about the best *scheduling* or *timing* for anticipated
Presidential activities, it appears the people leading Hillary Clinton
down the path to channelling were involved in way more substantive
ways.
  Also, as far as I know, Nancy Reagan's astrologer NEVER advocated the
use of LSD. Can ya imagine the media frenzy if she HAD?

>Now. Care to discourse about Arianna Huffington . . . ?

  From what I've seen of her, I'd have to say she's one of the most
intelligent, articulate, and genuinely feminine women around (besides
being undeniably gorgeous). Her husband is one lucky guy.  


>-- 
>           Crystal Kile is ckile@bgsuvax.bgsu.edu is PopTart
>    Drop into the Home Toaster http://www.bgsu.edu/~ckile/ckile.html

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 27 08:58:36 PDT 1996
Article: 62110 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!bofh.dot!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: BRAZIL
Date: 23 Jun 1996 20:19:48 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <4qk8t4$223@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31CD752E.FE5@one.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca9-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23  1:19:48 PM PDT 1996

  Can they dance the samba?

In <31CD752E.FE5@one.net> Geoffrey Nimmo  writes: 

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 27 19:41:56 PDT 1996
Article: 62190 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: JOEBUCKS "kosher tax" nonsense.
Date: 23 Jun 1996 16:43:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4qjs6u$r3g@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4prlsa$b5@portal.gmu.edu>  <4q1p7f$37s@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4q2fec$rng@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qjr38$odh@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23  9:43:10 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:23869 alt.conspiracy:62190

In <4qjr38$odh@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu> af786@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lad
A. Jelen) whines: 
>

>I took care of JoeBuck's rantings by killfiling him.
>Now he no longer bothers me.

  I am with you always.  

>The people who argue with this wacko do, however.

  Wacko? I know you are but what am I?

>Ignore him and he'll go away.

  Oh no! Not the old "ignore him" trick!

>Fight with him and you feed his psychosis.

  Freudianisms: the last refuge of those lacking in the means for
intellectual discourse.

>Trust me, he will outlast every one of you...

  Perhaps . . . and not only regarding Usenet debating. ;-)

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 27 22:57:08 PDT 1996
Article: 23869 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: JOEBUCKS "kosher tax" nonsense.
Date: 23 Jun 1996 16:43:10 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <4qjs6u$r3g@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4or1lf$p8s@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4prlsa$b5@portal.gmu.edu>  <4q1p7f$37s@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4q2fec$rng@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4qjr38$odh@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23  9:43:10 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:23869 alt.conspiracy:62190

In <4qjr38$odh@madeline.INS.CWRU.Edu> af786@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lad
A. Jelen) whines: 
>

>I took care of JoeBuck's rantings by killfiling him.
>Now he no longer bothers me.

  I am with you always.  

>The people who argue with this wacko do, however.

  Wacko? I know you are but what am I?

>Ignore him and he'll go away.

  Oh no! Not the old "ignore him" trick!

>Fight with him and you feed his psychosis.

  Freudianisms: the last refuge of those lacking in the means for
intellectual discourse.

>Trust me, he will outlast every one of you...

  Perhaps . . . and not only regarding Usenet debating. ;-)

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 28 10:39:51 PDT 1996
Article: 46498 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Fifty Billion Dollars
Date: 27 Jun 1996 05:39:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4qt6ql$mf4@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qpqm6$cme@kryten.awinc.com> <31d149eb.1062194@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca10-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 12:39:33 AM CDT 1996
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In <31d149eb.1062194@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
writes: 

[deletia]

>	Excuse me, I mean 60,000,000,000 dollars, with another 20 billion
>dollars yet to be paid. N.Y.Times, June 4, 1996, "Proof of Suffering
>Is Price of Holocasut Reparations". 

  Watch them ignore your citation, then whine about "lack of
documentation" for your statements.

>	It's interesting how Mr.Lewis uses the word "Israel", when we
>have been talking about "survivors", "victims", Jews, to be more
>precise. How is it you used the word "Israel" Mr.Lewis? Were you
>trying to pull a fast one? Were you trying to hoodwink the viewer,
>Mr.Lewis? Did you think no one would notice?  

  Glad you pointed that out. Methinks you certainly may have caught him
being rather less-than-honest (to put it nicely).  

>	Thanks for posting your sleezy response right out under a new
>heading, which gives your deceit a bit more exposure and the
>opportunity to posts the numbers.
>
>	Actually Mr.Lewis, I don't know the exact amount, to the nearest
>billion, but as you can see, I said 50,000,000,000 dollars instead of
>the 60,000,000,000 dollars. I recall reading a while back the figure
>is more like 200,000,000,000 dollars but I opted for the lower. I'll
>leave the sleeze up to you Mr.Lewis.  
>
>	Play around with this one. As asserted by ex Secretary George
>Ball, in his book on Jewish intrigues and the cost to the U.S. he says
>it has cost us 500,000,000,000 dollars.
>
>	Every dollar that went to or continues to go to Jewish causes,
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>whatever the amount, is that much less that goes to our own needy
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>citizens. How many schools could be built? How many hospitals. How
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>many homes for the millions of indigents? How much of our enviroment
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>could have been saved with that much money? For research and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>developement? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
 EXCELLENT point.

>	Instead it has gone to ...? What do the Jews do with the money
>anyway, Mr.Lewis, do you know? 

  He does but is likely too ashamed to admit the truth: those BILLIONS
and BILLIONS and BILLIONS of dollars are used to kick the indiginous
Palestinian population out of their centuries-old ancestral homes so
that some secular Jew from Chicago can move into new,
US-taxpayer-paid-for housing reserved, by law, exclusively for Jews.
  Also, with those many BILLIONS of dollars Israel is able to fire its
most powerful rockets at small US Navy ships, such as the USS Liberty,
it suspects of snooping on Israel's military intelligence.
  In addition, Israel *needs* those BILLIONS to pay the HUGE number of
spies (both Jewish-American and Gentile) it maintains within both the
US Government and throughout the private sector of the United States.  
For example, ex-Jewish-American Jonathon Pollard -- now an Israeli
citizen -- reportedly was paid incredibly large amounts of money for
the ton (literally, about 2,000 pounds!) of classified US Government
documents he turned over to his Israeli spymaster. 
 (BTW, Pollard's former spymaster was actually PROMOTED to Chief of
Israel's top Air Force installation AFTER his activities as Pollard's
paymaster were revealed. Talk about chutzpah, huh?)

   
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 28 14:50:39 PDT 1996
Article: 62415 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left
Subject: Re: Abbé Pierre and The Sin of Revisionism
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:17:29 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <4qk1np$r16@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca9-04.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 23 11:17:29 AM PDT 1996
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Forwarded message:

In 
slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes: 
>
>
>
>            Anti-racist group expels France's Abbe Pierre 
>
>PARIS (Reuter) - An anti-racist group expelled Abbe Pierre, France' s
>best-liked campaigner for the poor and homeless, Wednesday for
supporting
>an author who questions the Holocaust.
>
>The International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism (LICRA) said
the
>83-year-old Roman Catholic priest had failed to distance himself from
>philosopher Roger Garaudy for his work "The Founding Myths of Israeli
>Politics."
>
>"Abbe Pierre is no longer a member of LICRA," the group's president
Pierre
>Aidenbaum told Reuters after a meeting of the league Wednesday. 
>
>The priest, who routinely tops opinion polls as France's most popular
>person for his selfless struggle for the least privileged, had been a
>member of LICRA's committee of honor for 20 years. 
>
>Tuesday Abbe Pierre, under fire from his Catholic superiors, Jewish
groups
>and many friends, said he condemned any attempts to play down the
>"atrocious reality" of Hitler's genocide of the Jews. 
>
>But he said he would withdraw his confidence in Garaudy, long a
friend,
>only if the author failed to admit "any mistake proven against him." 
>
>LICRA said Abbe Pierre's attitude was "totally contradictory. "
Garaudy's
>work doubts the validity of the Holocaust in which six million Jews
were
>systematically exterminated by the Nazis during the Second World War. 
>
>It says the Jews suffered "massacres" that did not amount to genocide.
>Anti-racist groups have started legal action against Garaudy, saying
his
>book violates French laws making it illegal to question what courts
have
>judged to be crimes against humanity.
>
>[End]
>
>-- 
>******************************************************************
>What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
>                                                                  *
>The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
>*******************************************************************

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 28 19:02:32 PDT 1996
Article: 62475 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news.jsums.edu!gatech!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.rumors,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican
Subject: A disturbing question about THE DRUDGE REPORT
Date: 24 Jun 1996 14:41:09 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4qm9e5$g4g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qir5f$jg5@clark.zippo.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  7:41:09 AM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:33726 alt.conspiracy:62475 alt.politics.usa.republican:223764

Mr. Drudge:

  You recently made mention of singer/songwriter Eric Clapton in a
"Drudge Report," did you not? I believe it was the report just prior to
the present one dated 6/23/96. 
  As is well known, a few years ago Mr. Clapton tragically lost his son
in an horrific accident, when the boy fell out of the window of a New
York City high-rise apartment building.
  My question: you made refernce to "throwing the windows open to let
in some fresh air"  (paraphrase) in a portion of that previous Report
that, if memory serves, was relatively close to your mention of Eric
Clapton, if not in the very same paragraph.
  WAS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY YOU WOULD MAKE A COMMENT ABOUT
"THROWING THE WINDOWS OPEN" IN THE VERY SAME REPORT IN WHICH YOU
DISCUSS SOMEONE WHOSE SON TRAGICALLY DIED AS A RESULT OF FALLING OUT OF
A WINDOW?
  If there is any material statement of fact in the above which you
dispute, please state what it is and I shall make any necessary
corrections which I deem necessary in the interest of accuracy.
  
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 28 19:02:34 PDT 1996
Article: 62480 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.rumors,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican
Subject: UPDATE: Re: A disturbing question about THE DRUDGE REPORT
Date: 24 Jun 1996 15:08:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4qmb1g$m9t@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qir5f$jg5@clark.zippo.com> <4qm9e5$g4g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24 10:08:32 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:33728 alt.conspiracy:62480 alt.politics.usa.republican:223781

In <4qm9e5$g4g@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
writes: 
>
>Mr. Drudge:
>
>  You recently made mention of singer/songwriter Eric Clapton in a
>"Drudge Report," did you not? I believe it was the report just prior
to
>the present one dated 6/23/96. 
>  As is well known, a few years ago Mr. Clapton tragically lost his
son
>in an horrific accident, when the boy fell out of the window of a New
>York City high-rise apartment building.
>  My question: you made refernce to "throwing the windows open to let
>in some fresh air"  (paraphrase) in a portion of that previous Report
>that, if memory serves, was relatively close to your mention of Eric
>Clapton, if not in the very same paragraph.
>  WAS THERE ANY PARTICULAR REASON WHY YOU WOULD MAKE A COMMENT ABOUT
>"THROWING THE WINDOWS OPEN" IN THE VERY SAME REPORT IN WHICH YOU
>DISCUSS SOMEONE WHOSE SON TRAGICALLY DIED AS A RESULT OF FALLING OUT
OF
>A WINDOW?
>  If there is any material statement of fact in the above which you
>dispute, please state what it is and I shall make any necessary
>corrections which I deem necessary in the interest of accuracy.

********UPDATE: Additional, supportive documentation follows********

  I have re-checked the 6/21/96 issue of "The Drudge Report" and am now
able to cite the EXACT portion of that document in which the
above-mentioned disturbing references were made:

          "The Eric Clapton/Babyface song from the new
           Travolta [movie] is simply everywhere on Baloney 
           Boulevard. Don't have a radio? Just throw open the
           window, you'll hear it."

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 29 10:14:04 PDT 1996
Article: 62548 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.perot,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican
Subject: Shocker: Sen. Biden (D-DE) BLASTS FBI, Secret Service re: Filegate
Date: 28 Jun 1996 16:42:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <4r122e$i9n@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 28 11:42:54 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:223940 alt.politics.perot:49791 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:328322 alt.conspiracy:62548

  Based on what powerful Senator Joe Biden (D-DE) is saying today in
the Senate FBI Files Hearing regarding the culpability of the FBI and
Secret Service, it would appear that both of the Directors of those two
agencies may be asked to resign soon. 
  Biden's pulling no punches: "The FBI was WRONG! The Secret Service
was WRONG!" regarding handling of the files in question, exclaimed the
Democrat Senator from Delaware. 
  It would appear that the Democrats' strategy is to ascribe all the
real blame in Filegate to the FBI and Secret Service, while the White
House itself, apparently, will solely be cited for "sloppy
record-keeping," a more innocent charge. 
  "The more we dig, the more we learn," said Sen. Orrin Hatch (R-UT)
regarding the case.
  One of the most disturbing statements made during the Hearings today
was made by Hatch, when he noted that a White House operative may have
used information from the FBI files -- which he never should have had
access to -- to sue two people.
  In addition, the corpulent Craig Livingstone, the former bouncer and
Chief of White House Staff Security, looked VERY bad when he awkwardly
responded even to Hatch's most simple questions, such as "Do you own a
home computer or a laptop computer?" First Livingstone responded "no,"
then, after Hatch repeated the question, he suddenly "remembered" that
yes, indeed, his parents had, in fact, given him a computer. (The
preceding is based on my personal recollection of what I heard during
the live Haerings on CNN. I apologize if my recollection is flawed in
any substantial way.)
  Also, Hatch brought out a quote that Hillary Clinton specifically
stated that "she wants Craig Livingstone in there [the Chief of
Security job].
  When asked if he had ever met with Vince Foster, Livingstone stated,
"I'm sure I must have."
   It'll be interesting to see how the Liberal Establishment media
deals with this. I expect a cover-up or, alternately, a "downplay it"
routine.
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 29 10:14:09 PDT 1996
Article: 62660 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!torn!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.activism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 8 Num. 27
Date: 27 Jun 1996 04:57:24 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <4qt4bk$k11@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4qsngp$a9m@treflan.shout.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca10-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jun 26  9:57:24 PM PDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:62660 alt.activism:57535 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:328507

In <4qsngp$a9m@treflan.shout.net> bigred@shout.net (Brian Redman)
writes: 

>Representative
>Tom  Lantos  of  California,  obviously  a "team player" for whom
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>there is no such thing as  "stooping  too low", went so far as to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^     
>hint that the honorable thing would be for Livingstone to go blow
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>his brains out. According to Congressman Lantos, Admiral Boorda,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>after relatively minor infractions, nonetheless saw fit to  "fall
>on his sword" and, by implication because Livingstone's acts were
>apparently  so much worse, the least that Livingstone ought to do
>would be likewise.

  Fascinating . . . isn't "Tom Lantos" the ULTRA-liberal Demo
Congressman who speaks with a thick European accent? Is he a Holocaust
survivor, btw? Did he REALLY suggest Livingstone ought to kill himself?

>Most sickening of all is my fellow countrymen, who, by and large,
>choose not to see.
> 
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>     I encourage distribution of "Conspiracy Nation."
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>If you would like "Conspiracy Nation" sent to your e-mail 
>address, send a message in the form "subscribe cn-l My Name" to 
>listproc@cornell.edu          (Note: that is "CN-L" *not* "CN-1")
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>    For information on how to receive the improved Conspiracy 
>  Nation Newsletter, send an e-mail message to bigred@shout.net
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Want to know more about Whitewater, Oklahoma City bombing, etc? 
>(1) telnet prairienet.org (2) logon as "visitor" (3) go citcom
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>       See also: http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>          See also: ftp.shout.net  pub/users/bigred
>-----------------------------------------------------------------
>Aperi os tuum muto, et causis omnium filiorum qui pertranseunt.
>Aperi os tuum, decerne quod justum est, et judica inopem et 
>  pauperem.                    -- Liber Proverbiorum  XXXI: 8-9 
>

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 29 13:48:43 PDT 1996
Article: 62724 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Hillary admits 'channelling' Ghandi, Eleanor Roosevelt
Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:41:14 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4qn21q$2ef@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ql1nv$kut@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4qmhnl$cld@nw101.infi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca8-09.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jun 24  4:41:14 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:62724 alt.politics.usa.republican:224298 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:328623 alt.politics.perot:49818 alt.impeach.clinton:49920 alt.politics.democrats.d:91508

In <4qmhnl$cld@nw101.infi.net> "Candice M. Jackson"
 writes: 
>
>
>	Where do you get your news? 
>	That "pinnacle of accuracy" Rush Limbaugh??
>
>	--C.

  Well, since that well-known Republican (not!) Bob Woodward of the
Washington Post -- you remember him? the one who, with colleague
Bernstein, admirably toppled Nixon with their reporting -- reported
this information, I must take it seriously.
  In addition, the fact that HILLARY CLINTON HERSELF admitted to this
channelling experience in her nationally-broadcast radio show this past
week, I am comfortable in assuming it DID happen.
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 29 13:48:45 PDT 1996
Article: 62757 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.perot,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: make no $$$$ at Auschwitz
Date: 29 Jun 1996 18:48:42 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <4r3tqa$l60@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4r3e4m$3g1q@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca8-21.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jun 29  1:48:42 PM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:62757 alt.politics.usa.republican:224357 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:328667 alt.politics.perot:49826

  Isn't this the same location where a gang of New York City Jews
literally invaded a Catholic convent for nuns that had been established
in the area, claiming that the construction of such a religious edifice
at the site was an "anti-semitic act"?
  As I recall, outraged Polish construction workers came to the defense
of the peaceful, God-fearing elderly Catholic nuns who lived at the
convent. I believe the defensive actions of the Polish defenders were
quite "effective," in fact.

In <4r3e4m$3g1q@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com> EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M
Huber) writes: 

>_Polish authorities order halt to Auschwitz shops_ (Nando Times)
>
>WARSAW, Poland - Polish authorities Tuesday renewed an order halting
>construction of a controversial shopping center near the World War II
>Auschwitz death camp, after the developer resumed work without their
>permission.
>
>  The governor of the southern Poland province in which the former
>Nazi German camp stands slapped a new suspension order on the project,
>PAP news agency reported.
>
>  News early this year that a developer had gained permission to turn 
>existing buildings opposite the gate of the museum at the former camp
>into a shopping center for local people aroused strong international
>condemnation from Jewish and other groups.
>
>  The Warsaw government backed arguments that the project was
>inappropriate so near the place where wartime German invaders murdered
>between one million and 1.5 million people -- most of them Jews, but
>also Poles, Russians, Gypsies and others. Provincial authorities
>suspended further work there.

  Let's remember: the proposed development was merely planned for an
area NEAR -- not INSIDE -- the concentration camp.
  I don't know ANYONE who would be so insensitive as to propose the
construction of a shopping center INSIDE that former conncentration
camp.

>  Monday the developer, the Maja Foundation, announced that work had 
>resumed. It argued that the two-month period under which building can
>be suspended had expired.
>
>  But Bielsko-Biala provincial governor Marek Trombski said the work
>had been suspended by administrative order and the resumption
>announced by Maja's president was not legal.
>
>  "I am astonished that he is trying to do this in a situation where
>this matter is being broadcast around the whole world. This is bad for
>our country," he told PAP, accusing Maja of trying to force the issue.
>
>  A senior Maja executive told Reuters his company, tied to a charity,
>had dropped its original plan to build two shops and a restaurant for
>a retail firm and to serve the town of Oswiecim.
>
>  Tadeusz Kasperczyk said it had now adopted a proposal made in April
>by an international committee overseeing the Auschwitz museum, to
>create a fast-food outlet and small shop serving museum visitors so
>that facilities such as the book stall and snack bar could be removed
>from the site of the camp itself.
>
>  "What we are building is designed so that all commerce can be
>removed from the territory of the museum, along with the parking area
>itself," he said.
>
>  But Polish central government officials said the committee's 
>recommendations had been made to the Culture Ministry, responsible for
>the museum, and Maja had no right to act on them without formal
>permission.
>
>  News that the project had been resumed evoked an angry response
Monday >from World Jewish Congress vice president Kalman Sultanik, a
member of >the international committee on Auschwitz.
>
>  "We do not intend to stand idly by while some developer tries to
>make a profit on the blood of Jewish and non-Jewish martyrs," Sultanik
>said in New York.

  What's ironic is that I specifically recall reading, a few years ago,
that a certain well-known Germanic bodybuilder -- well-known to have
listened to old Hitler speeches as part of his training, in addition to
having met with former SS officer Kurt Waldheim AFTER (I believe) his
WWII Nazi past was revealed -- donated several million dollars to some
powerful Jewish American group.
  When a journalist asked one of the Jewish organization's members if
this wasn't a bit "hypocritical" on the organization's part, the member
replied to the effect, "Hell, they'd take money from Hitler himself if
he offered it."
  Yet some totally innocent young Poles, living generations after the
Holocaust, can't build a supermarket to buy food for their families.
talk about hypocrisy -- or, should I say, "chutzpah." 

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 30 09:33:31 PDT 1996
Article: 46852 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: What is "chutzpah"?
Date: 27 Jun 1996 05:58:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <4qt7u8$ncu@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31d030d7.1171769@news.pacificnet.net> <31d15eeb.6438747@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca10-02.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 27 12:58:32 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46852 alt.conspiracy:62833

  Check this out: years ago, right after my high school graduation,
before so many providers of mail-in or drop-off film processing were
around, I brought the two rolls of film from my high school graduation
to a Jewish-owned camera shop for processing.
  When I returned to the shop on the due date, the owner of the place
informed me, with absolutely NO sense of apology, remorse or
disappointment, that "my film got messed up" and the pictures "didn't
come out." 
  NOT ONE WORD of, "I'm sorry, but this is what happened . . . " from
the Jewish shop owner.
  NOTHING.
  Just what I quoted above. The shop owner didn't even offer to replace
the film itself, which HE had "messed up" -- although the value of
those rolls of film couldn't compare with the value of those graduation
photos I and my family so looked forward to seeing.
  Frankly, I was speechless -- after all, a person only experiences ONE
high school graduation in a lifetime, and those pictures (as anyone
knows) were irreplaceable.
  As stunned as I was naive at the time, I walked out of the shop and
mulled over the coldness of that shop owner. 
  Years later, I tend to think that the film may have been deliberately
destroyed because those rolls of film depicted my graduation ceremony,
which clearly took place inside and outside of a Catholic Church.

-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 30 13:33:37 PDT 1996
Article: 62886 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.usa.democrats
Subject: Re: Hillary admits 'channelling' Ghandi, Eleanor Roosevelt
Date: 25 Jun 1996 05:06:07 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4qns3v$rvb@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4ql1nv$kut@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4qmhnl$cld@nw101.infi.net> <4qng02$baq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca17-03.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jun 25 12:06:07 AM CDT 1996
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:62886 alt.politics.usa.republican:224600 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:328874 alt.politics.perot:49842 alt.impeach.clinton:49960

In <4qng02$baq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> dboell@ix.netcom.com(Donald P
Boell) writes: 
>
>In <4qmhnl$cld@nw101.infi.net> "Candice M. Jackson"
> writes: 
>>
>>
>>	Where do you get your news? 
>>	That "pinnacle of accuracy" Rush Limbaugh??
>>
>>	--C.
>>
>
>Typical.  Someone who has no clue starts in with the attacks.
>
>The story is in the Washington Post.  It is also coming out in a book
>by the Post's Woodward.  Try reading it.  
>
>Hillary speaks to the dead!  What a hoot.
>
>>
>
>Don B.
>Rush is Right
>Hillary will use insanity as a defense when she bites it

  Seriously, does anyone think Hillary is intentionally "leaking" all
this stuff about her (repeated, we now learn) channelling experiences
as a ploy to help set up an insanity defense as those around her are
convicted one by one?
  It's noteworthy that, although the fact of the First Couple's
consultations with infomercial king Anthony "How many times have I been
sued?" Robbins and other pop self-help gurus was reported immediately,
the involvement of this Jean Houston indvidual wasn't revealed till now
-- about two years after the fact.
  BTW, it's been reported that, at least during the 1960s, Houston
encouraged the use of LSD. Does Ms. Houston still advocate the use of
LSD to her clients? 
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"


From joebuck@ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 30 13:33:41 PDT 1996
Article: 63070 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles)
Newsgroups: alt.restaurants.professionals,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: NEW NEWSGROUP?
Date: 30 Jun 1996 14:49:41 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <4r6465$c3k@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <31d4e5bd.963494@news.concentric.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: irv-ca6-07.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jun 30  9:49:41 AM CDT 1996

In <31d4e5bd.963494@news.concentric.net> antirush@cris.com (John
Bilderburger) writes: 

  "antirush@CRIS.COM," huh? . . . vely interestink . . . Never heard of
your ISP till today, but . . . 
   I just sent notices of spamming to your postmaster and other
interested parties concerning unsolicited email I and approx. 250
others have recieved. Actually, I was following the advice of another
recipient of the spam who provided all of the recipients the addresses
of where to send our complaints. 
   Are YOU the person behind the mass spam, by any chance?

>Matthew 19:21-"Sell all you have and give it to the poor."

  So sell your damn computer and do us ALL a big favor! :-)

[snip]
-- 
"Put that coffee DOWN! Coffee's for CLOSERS only!"
"You drove a HYUNDAI to get here tonight ... I drove an $83,000
 BMW . . .  THAT'S my name!"
"I can speak only to a Mr. or Mrs. 'Nyborg.'" 
        -- "Glengarry Glen Ross"



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