The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/nyms/aol/1996/sommer.0696


From ruthsommer@aol.com Sat Jun 22 17:47:00 PDT 1996
Article: 45351 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist Book available on Web
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:13:07 -0400
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>Subject: Revisionist Book available on Web
>From: Widmann@gnn.com (Richard Widmann)
>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 10:15:11
>Message-ID: <4qguqf$clp@news-e2b.gnn.com>
>
>Friends / Revisionists - I am reposting this article from last year 
>regarding the superb volume, Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte (another 
>banned book in Germany.)...

I have a copy of 'Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschechte' [foundations of
contemporary
history].  Unfortunately there is no English translation of it available
yet in book form,
but I sincerely hope that one will come out.  It's a very good collection
of essays
and research studies done by revisionists on the Holocaust.

>You many find it at:
>http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith/inter/intgrundex.html

I think it's great that at least some of the material in it are available
through the
Internet.  Thank goodness there are at least SOME people in our so-called
democracies that value freedom of speech and freedom in publishing.

>ThoughtCrime: 03/27/95
>German Publisher Raided

Germany slides into oppression and totalitarian censorship.  How long will
it be
before Jewish groups in the USA manage it into the same repressive mess?

If Jews cannot value these freedoms, why don't they just leave?  They can
always go
and live in Cuba, or North Korea, can't they?



From ruthsommer@aol.com Sat Jun 22 17:47:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45347 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor:  Frauds are us
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:24:45 -0400
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>Subject: Re: Nizkor:  Frauds are us
>From: EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber)
>Date: 22 Jun 1996 14:17:53 GMT
>Message-ID: <4qgvah$hc6@useneta1.news.prodigy.com>
>
>
Danny Keren had written:
>>The photos of the people burned alive in the Thekla and
>>Gardelegen atrocities are at
>>
>>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?miscellany/dkeren-incoming

M Huber replied:
>Amazing, the pathology science of the 40s. We can't today tell from ashes

>hat the 'perpetrator' burned while alive..

You dare to doubt this proof?  There is a photo of the ashes!  What more
proof
do you need?  Can't you tell from the ashes that these were Jews, and that
they
were burned alive?  It's so obvious that only a denier could question it.

That reminds me.  I went hunting the other day and shot a 400-pound
squirrel.
He was HUGE.  What, you doubt it?  I can PROVE it.  I will take you to the
actual tree where he was shot.



From ruthsommer@aol.com Sat Jun 22 17:47:31 PDT 1996
Article: 45349 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:31:24 -0400
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>Subject: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
>From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:01:27 -0400
>Message-ID: 
>
>Since Matt Giwer appears to be trying to back away from his earlier
>braggadocio about "controlling this conference" [1], and simultaneously
>to attack his opponents for doing exactly what he is accused of, I think
>a response is necessary...

What I see from Matt Giwer's posts are pretty reasonable.  But I do see
a lot of vicious and hateful attacks on him.  It's possible that now and
then,
after many such attacks, he might respond.

Are you saying that the attacks on Mr Giwer are ok, but his response
are not?

>Note that the topic here is net abuse, not revisionism...

The anti-revisionist abuse here is appalling.  Are you doing anything at
all
to squealch this viciousness?  Are you approaching the servers of the
anti-revisionists?

>My claim is that Matt Giwer's intentions are to make alt.revisionism
>useless to anyone who wants to discuss rationally the phenomenon of
>revisionism and/or specific arguments and claims of revisionists...

Some of the anti-revisionists respond to the revisionists rationally, but
most
of them obviously do not.  What do you think about this?  Shouldn't these
people
be encouraged to be more civil and decent?

It seems to me that your attitude to all this is very one-sided.  You say
you want
rational debate but really you only target one side.  I can only conclude,
from
reading all this, that you are yet another Holocaust propagandist, or, to
coin
one of Mr Giwer's expressions, a 'Holoterrorist'.

I think the last thing you are interested in is rational debate.



From ruthsommer@aol.com Sat Jun 22 17:47:32 PDT 1996
Article: 45368 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:37:47 -0400
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>Subject: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:12:51 GMT
>Message-ID: <4qfkv2$hgl@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
>
>	He were have the Gang of Six complaining about exactly what they
have
>been doing for years, monopolizing the conference and preventing any
>discussion of revisionism.  
>
>	Not only as individuals but by email conspiracy as to how to deal
with
>people who won't believe what the Gang insists they must believe.  
>
>	Their entire intention to silence those who will not believe as
they
>believe.  And they have been doing it for years, driving people out of
>the NG...

I think you are right on the button.  Believe as I do, or be censored! 
Agree with me,
or be driven off the newsgroup through harassment and vicious hate!

My impression, from reading so many of these kinds of vicious
anti-revisionist posts,
are that the LAST thing these people want is a free and open, rational
exchange of
opinions on the Holocaust.

Your 'Holoterrorist' expression is perfect.  Other lurkers here ought to
take this very
seriously.  What kind of a society are we living in, where freedom of
speech is so
scantily protected?  And why are Jewish people so apparently determined to
smash it?



From ruthsommer@aol.com Sat Jun 22 17:48:31 PDT 1996
Article: 45349 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:31:24 -0400
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>Subject: Giwer Responds to the Charges of Net Abuse
>From: jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 04:01:27 -0400
>Message-ID: 
>
>Since Matt Giwer appears to be trying to back away from his earlier
>braggadocio about "controlling this conference" [1], and simultaneously
>to attack his opponents for doing exactly what he is accused of, I think
>a response is necessary...

What I see from Matt Giwer's posts are pretty reasonable.  But I do see
a lot of vicious and hateful attacks on him.  It's possible that now and
then,
after many such attacks, he might respond.

Are you saying that the attacks on Mr Giwer are ok, but his response
are not?

>Note that the topic here is net abuse, not revisionism...

The anti-revisionist abuse here is appalling.  Are you doing anything at
all
to squealch this viciousness?  Are you approaching the servers of the
anti-revisionists?

>My claim is that Matt Giwer's intentions are to make alt.revisionism
>useless to anyone who wants to discuss rationally the phenomenon of
>revisionism and/or specific arguments and claims of revisionists...

Some of the anti-revisionists respond to the revisionists rationally, but
most
of them obviously do not.  What do you think about this?  Shouldn't these
people
be encouraged to be more civil and decent?

It seems to me that your attitude to all this is very one-sided.  You say
you want
rational debate but really you only target one side.  I can only conclude,
from
reading all this, that you are yet another Holocaust propagandist, or, to
coin
one of Mr Giwer's expressions, a 'Holoterrorist'.

I think the last thing you are interested in is rational debate.



From ruthsommer@aol.com Sat Jun 22 17:48:50 PDT 1996
Article: 45368 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:37:47 -0400
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>Subject: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:12:51 GMT
>Message-ID: <4qfkv2$hgl@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
>
>	He were have the Gang of Six complaining about exactly what they
have
>been doing for years, monopolizing the conference and preventing any
>discussion of revisionism.  
>
>	Not only as individuals but by email conspiracy as to how to deal
with
>people who won't believe what the Gang insists they must believe.  
>
>	Their entire intention to silence those who will not believe as
they
>believe.  And they have been doing it for years, driving people out of
>the NG...

I think you are right on the button.  Believe as I do, or be censored! 
Agree with me,
or be driven off the newsgroup through harassment and vicious hate!

My impression, from reading so many of these kinds of vicious
anti-revisionist posts,
are that the LAST thing these people want is a free and open, rational
exchange of
opinions on the Holocaust.

Your 'Holoterrorist' expression is perfect.  Other lurkers here ought to
take this very
seriously.  What kind of a society are we living in, where freedom of
speech is so
scantily protected?  And why are Jewish people so apparently determined to
smash it?



From ruthsommer@aol.com Sun Jun 23 17:24:19 PDT 1996
Article: 45596 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:05:04 -0400
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>Subject: Baron exposes shameless Jewish Holocaust liars
>From: Alexander Baron 
>Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 14:26:47 GMT
>Message-ID: <835453607snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
>
>Some time ago Dan Keren said rather optimistically that although 
>here $must$ be some false Holocaust testimonies he had never seen 
>one, not one, that was patently dishonest and fraudulent...
>
>All I want from you though Dan is an admission that 
>Jews lie about the Holocaust, they do it frequently, shamelessly 
>and without being taken to task by the gulible goyim...

Was Keren suggesting that Jews are the only people on earth that are
incapable of lying,
or that Jews ARE capable of lying but that they just never lie about the
Holocaust?
I don't mean 'they were mistaken' or 'they were confused' or 'they were
misinterpreted'.
I mean Jews LYING in their testimonies and LYING in their memoirs.

And if they DO lie about the Holocaust, then which lies did they tell,
when and where?
If Mr Keren won't acknowledge this, then I think he is just a Holocaust
propagandist.
What agenda would Mr Keren be pursuing then?  Who is he serving?

Can a person really tell from the flame and smoke coming out of a chimney,
what persons
were being cremated, where they came from, etc?  Is this a lie or is it
not a lie?

Did the Nazis really make soap and lampshades out of dead Jews?  Is this a
lie or is this
not a lie?

If the numbers of those killed or died at Auschwitz keep going down, then
were the tellers
of the original numbers lying, or not?



From ruthsommer@aol.com Sun Jun 23 19:30:13 PDT 1996
Article: 45630 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Design of a six-sided Hall of Remembrance at the USHMM
Date: 22 Jun 1996 01:14:15 -0400
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Is this Museum actually six-sided then, or not?

This numbers thing has always mystified me.  I have heard that in the
Jewish religion 'six'
has some sort of mystical numerological significance.  It denotes power,
or good luck,
or something like that.  I don't know.  I don't know much about the
Khabballah or
numerology in general, but it DOES seem as though 'six' is a predominant
figure
in so many things Jewish.

6,000,000 Jews.  Why six million, precisely?  Why not 5,550,000 or
1,892,000?  Why
does the number have to have that six in it?  Is it a case whereby the
actual historical
truth is not so important, as much as having the right numerology?



From ruthsommer@aol.com Mon Jun 24 06:58:57 PDT 1996
Article: 45659 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An all Jewish memorial despite an act of Congress
Date: 22 Jun 1996 01:08:10 -0400
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I have not personally visited this huge Holocaust Museum in Washington DC.

One part of me wants to out of curiosity, but another part is repelled by
the very idea.
It seems to me that these gigantic holocaust things appear to celebrate
the Holocaust
more as a religious event than as something historical.

And it also bothers me a great deal that although the Holocaust occurred
in Europe
over a half-century ago, and happened to and by non-Americans, it is now
funded by
American taxpayers and it takes up a big amount of real estate in our
nation's capital.

What I'm trying to convey here is that the Museum is more of a religious
monument
than anything else, and that is a violation of Church and State, is it
not?

Comments, anyone?

And how can we have this thing un-funded, and even removed from our
capitol?


From ruthsommer@aol.com Tue Jun 25 16:14:21 PDT 1996
Article: 45926 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Censors on the "Outs" in Salmon Arm, B.C.
Date: 22 Jun 1996 18:04:36 -0400
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>CENSORS IN SALMON ARM
>
>...This censorship effort in our great democracy was supported by the
usual
>groups and personages, including Marxist Alan Dutton, who got over
>$135,000 from the NDP government in the 1994-95 financial year for
>watching "racists."...

This is amazing.  Do taxpayers know that their money is being spent in
this way?

>I challenged Lethbridge to a duel. Of words. But he prefers to shoot from
>behind cover and ducked out of debating me. Very wise of him, because he
>would have been swallowed whole, untasty morsel though he may be. 
>
>His line is that of the Marxist-Leninist-Trotskyite crowd - "No free
>speech for fascists." And he makes a career of it...

What is the problem with this Holocaust/Jewish crowd?  Don't they
understand
that free speech is a concept that is for EVERYONE?  It's not something
that
can be squealched for this group or that person, that Jews don't like.

Why do Jews, or at least powerful Jewish organizations, want to keep doing
this, denying this basic right to others?  I think that Jews are setting
themselves
up as totalitarians, as people who are destroying our traditions and
values.
I mean that this is the perception that these Jewish groups are garnering
for Jews.

>******************************************************************
>What sort of truth is it that needs protection?  - Auberon Waugh  *
>                                                                 *
>The London Daily Telegraph, May 9, 1992                           *
>*******************************************************************

That says it all.  The Holocaust needs 'protection'?  It needs the
squealching of
freedom of speech for those who doubt it?  Can't it stand on its own
merits?



From ruthsommer@aol.com Thu Jun 27 07:32:42 PDT 1996
Article: 46276 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the parallels
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:25:00 -0400
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I agree with Matt Giwer's feelings about the horror stories that Jews
indulge in.

I think that for Jews to be so fixated on this Holocaust thing, and to
actually make it a part of their religion, is pathological.  What does it
do to up and coming generations, to their minds I mean, to constantly harp
on dead Jews and cooked Jews and gassed Jews and steamed Jews and cremated
Jews?

All these survival accounts and tales they spin, it could be neuroticizing
the entire Jewish younger generation.  Above it, it's filling their minds
with hate towards Germans and towards ALL people who aren't Jewish.  Is it
a good thing for Jews to be taught to hate non-Jews?  Isn't that what the
rabbis are now doing with the Yom Hashoah rituals?

It's a hatefest really.  Jews need to learn to be part of the wider
community and stop thinking of themselves as a persecuted little ghetto
within it.  They need to learn to be tolerant and civil towards others,
instead of the hate-filled bigots that they're being trained to become by
their rabbis and by this fixation on the Holocaust in general.



From ruthsommer@aol.com Thu Jun 27 12:28:48 PDT 1996
Article: 46287 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Zundelhaus firebombing: anyone apprehended yet?
Date: 23 Jun 1996 17:55:08 -0400
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The firebombing of Ernst Zundel's house in Toronto last year was a
shocking event. 
I understand that he had a camera security system on his house before the
bombing and that two men were actually filmed planting, or appearing to
plant, the bomb.

Yet nobody has yet been apprehended and nobody is being prosecuted for
this crime.  It has been over a year now and the police are still going
slow on this one.

Why is it that to express the views that Ernst Zundel has, the result is
that your house gets burned down?  That seems like the extremely obvious
motivation for the deed, since threats to do this have been thrown at
Zundel for a long time by various 
Jews and Jewish groups, such as the JDO - Jewish Defense Organization.

I wonder...if a prominent anti-revisionist Jew's home was burned down -
and I condemn any such deeds to anybody regardless of their views on any
subject - would the police move just a little bit faster?  The larger
question is: are the Toronto police politically motivated in their go-slow
approach in investigating this crime?  I think it obvious that they surely
are.

I also wonder how many anti-revisionists here condemn the bombing of
Ernst's home.  Let's hear some voices on this.  Can the anti-revisionists
here condemn terror and intimidation like this?

Also, if anybody here has any new information on the bombing, please share
it.


From ruthsommer@aol.com Fri Jun 28 10:39:49 PDT 1996
Article: 46470 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: David Irving: new "Nuremberg" and "Dresden" books
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:15:51 -0400
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Two new books by David Irving are supposed to be out now, or so I hear -

"APOCALYPSE 1945: THE DESTRUCTION OF DRESDEN"
ISBN 0958 760 217, 329pp.
This is a completely revised version of his earlier "DRESDEN" book that
came out in the early 1960s.  Irving says that the earlier version was
heavily edited by the publisher and that he has now corrected everything.

"NUREMBERG: THE LAST BATTLE"
ISBN 1872 197 167, 400pp
This is the English translation of the German edition.

"CHURCHILLS WAR: TRIUMPH IN ADVERSITY" (Volume 2)
ISBN 1872 197 159, 900pp.
Nine hundred pages!  I read volume 1 and it was marvelous.  I have been
waiting for the second volume for years.  I wasn't even sure if it would
ever come out at all.

Are these books REALLY out yet, or are they still just being promoted?  If
anybody here knows if they are actually out, and where to get them, please
share.


From ruthsommer@aol.com Fri Jun 28 10:39:50 PDT 1996
Article: 46471 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SOVIET PLANS TO INVADE GERMANY
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:15:53 -0400
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I read the original "SCORCHED EARTH" and "HITLER MOVES EAST" by Carell. 
They were very good, especially HME.

In them he did mention the Soviet preparations to invade Europe, but how
does he expand or revise this in the new edition?

For a really good handling of this, read "ICEBREAKER" by Suvorov.  After
reading ICEBREAKER, I don't think anybody anywhere could ever again have
any doubts that Stalin wanted to conquer and communize Europe.  Just
imagine all those Jewish commissars tyrannizing and murdering populations
in Germany, France, Holland, Italy, everywhere.  But Hitler nipped it in
the bud.  Suvorov says that if Hitler had attacked 2-3 weeks later than he
did, the Russians would have invaded first.



From ruthsommer@aol.com Fri Jun 28 18:11:59 PDT 1996
Article: 46595 of alt.revisionism
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From: ruthsommer@aol.com (RuthSommer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: David Irving's 'Goebbels' bio - great!
Date: 23 Jun 1996 18:03:26 -0400
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I just got my copy of David Irving's "GOEBBELS: MASTERMIND OF THE THIRD
REICH".  I had to get it from England because so far at least, no American
publisher is willing to stand up to the pressure of Jewish groups, and to
go ahead and publish it.

The book is 722 pages in length, with some stunning photographs.  At the
back of it several other new Irving books are mentioned, that apparently
are out now or will soon be out.

I had heard that the Goebbels bio was, according to the Jewish groups
attacking it and him and demanding that publishers not publish it, a
'thinly-veiled' support of Goebbels and Hitler.  But I don't see this in
reading the book.  Irving is actually very critical of Hitler, Goebbels,
and of Nazism in general.  But he's also fair and objective.  From reading
it and from having read other Irving books, I don't see him as being a fan
of Hitler and the Nazis.  But he is honest about them and isn't afraid to
say things that Jewish people don't want said about them.

If genuine revision of history is to take place, then Jews and Jewish
groups should not be allowed to dominate and control it.  They should have
their say too, of course, but they should not be interfering in the say of
others.

The great thing about Irving is that he doesn't kowtow to Jewish groups
and run to get their permission about what to write and what to say,
before doing it.  I think that too many historians are like this and that
the 'history' that we get as a result isn't as truthful as it could be.

Has anyone else here read the Goebbels' bio yet?



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