The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/moran.tom/2001/moran.0110


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:30 EDT 2001
Article: 972623 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A "coalition" of one?
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 22:12:39 GMT
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Mr.Morris squacks:
>Get your snout out of your ass and watch the news.
>
>Why do you hate your own country, by the way?  Shouldn't you move to
>Syria where you'll be happy at last?
>
>Or are you afraid they won't let Jews like you in?


What does the news say? Personally I don't believe hardly any of the
news when it comes to them reporting on the enemies of the Jewish
state.

Syria you say? Slowly I turn, step by step, inch by inch ... I mean
slowly the UN turns, step by step, inch by ... I mean slowly everyone
turns, step by step, inch by inch and elects Syria to the UN Security
Council, with a vote of some 130 to 1, and guess who the odd ass holes
are" Why the Jewish state is the only one that voted 'No' out of the
more than a hundred others. Nope, not even the United States. 

Get lost you wittle puddle of diarrhea.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:30 EDT 2001
Article: 972794 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:44:20 GMT
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>As I have posted numerous times, the Holtz-Elliot 1941 paper
>proves that diesel exhaust contains less than 4 percent
>oxygen even when running in normal conditions. This kills
>within a few minutes. It doesn't take years.
>
>tommie is such a poor, pathetic nazi idiot.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.



What Mr.Keren should do is post whatever this Holtz-Eliot, "1941" no
less, paper to show how Diesel is so dangerous. But hold it, wait a
minute, Keren says the paper says Diesel engines produce less oxygen
and not anything about any carbon monoxide. Boy, being a nazi is way
better than having to resort some flim flam in order to maintain the
criminal charges against the Germans.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:30 EDT 2001
Article: 973096 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:36:32 GMT
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Mr.Keren had referred the reader over to a paper that was written some
50 years ago instead of one, two or three and more that should have
appeared since in order to say that Diesel exhaust would be good
choice for mass extermination. Moran said:
># What Mr.Keren should do is post whatever this Holtz-Eliot, "1941" no
># less, paper to show how Diesel is so dangerous. But hold it, wait a
># minute, Keren says the paper says Diesel engines produce less oxygen
># and not anything about any carbon monoxide. Boy, being a nazi is way
># better than having to resort some flim flam in order to maintain the
># criminal charges against the Germans.

Now Mr.Keren returns to say:
>Well, retard, the paper is indeed from 1941. Are you denying
>that the paper, or the year 1941, existed? Is this the new
>"revisionist breakthrough" the world has been waiting for?

[ Looks like Mr.Keren first claims that I said the year 1941 and the
paper never existed and then makes a final statement as if his claim
is true:
>Do you realize that you must be one of the most stupid people
>in the world?

Mr.Keren continued:
>We can settle this easily. You're claiming that diesel exhaust
>in a confined chamber takes years to kill. According to the
>Holtz-Elliot paper, even when running within the normal parameters,
>the exhaust of a well-tuned diesel consists of 3 percent oxygen, 12 
>percent carbon dioxide, and a lot of nitrogen oxides and soot.
>
>You say years. Fine. Then, please, put your money where your
>big mouth is, and try breathing this mixture for half-an-hour.

Of course I never said anything about Diesel gas in a confined
chamber. I made a point that any lethal results from Diesel exhausts
is a long term thing and I compared it to gasoline engines.

This is the record of what I ended up saying -

'Whereas cases of persons being overcome by fumes from gasoline
engines are legion, there are no compilations of cases for death by
Diesel fumes.'

The record shows that Mr.Keren has steered around that. Mr.Keren
resorts once again and in chorus with his ethnocentric group of
anti-revisionists that I should try some experiment. This is the same
thing I have said time and again in response -

Okay Mr.Keren, here's a proposal. We have two rooms. Like the alleged
gas chambers, 12 by 12 by 8 feet. Into one we introduce Diesel fumes
and the other gasoline fumes. Which one do you select to spend 10
minutes, the average time claimed for the alleged gassings?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:31 EDT 2001
Article: 973099 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Doug Collins is Dead
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:42:20 GMT
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On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 15:28:28 GMT, John Morris
 wrote:

>Save us from what, Joe?


Any little Palestinian kid could just slap this Mr.Morris sillier than
he already is. By the time any little Palestinian kid got done with
Mr.Morris the poor sucker would be slap happy. After just a couple of
seconds this Mr.Morris would be yelling, 'Someone get me a gun'.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:31 EDT 2001
Article: 973285 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 01:10:47 GMT
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Mr.Keren squacks:
>It's not. Sigh. Look, retard, I am asking you a simple question:
>how long can people survive when breathing a mixture of 3 percent
>oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, high levels of nitrogen oxides,
>and soot?
>
>Just answer this simple question. Ok?


No doubt they would live a whole longer than if they were subjected to
the fumes of gasoline engines. How long would they live in the alleged
gas chambers? Who knows. The tales can have from 15 to 30 minutes.

Say Mr.Keren, maybe you could say something about this one tale out of
the many others about people being gassed with Diesel fumes and it's
the alleged carbon monoxide that did it.

http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/MainCampsEng.html

"In the first phase of its operations, from mid-March 1942 to mid-May
1942, Belzec had three gas chambers in a wooden barrack with a double
wall filled with sand. The gas chambers were half-lined with tin and
equipped with two airtight doors, one for entry and one through which
corpses were removed. The carbon monoxide gas was piped in from a
diesel engine mounted outside. ...."   

Okay Mr.Keren, go get it. Sic em boy, sic em. You know, give it that
grrrr, snarl, arf.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:32 EDT 2001
Article: 973582 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:53:01 GMT
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Mr.Keren blusters:
>Just answer the question, poor old nazi clown. How long can
>people survive when breathing such a mixture? "Who knows"?
>That's all you can offer? Poor, poor, old nazi clown.
>
>Are you still claiming it would have been "years"?


Don't you get it about the 'years' Mr.Keren? Whereas there are mucho
case histories of persons being overcome and killed by the fumes of
gasoline engines the only accounts we have for the dangers of Diesel
are those that tell us about long term effects. That would mean that
the Holocaust Diesel tales are totally inane.

How is it you keep demanding answers while at the same time you don't
address what's directed at you? Huh? What's the problem, are they too
much for you? Huh?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:32 EDT 2001
Article: 973586 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Propaganda stunt on "fairness and accuracy" in reporting.
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:01:13 GMT
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Quarter page ad

New York Times, Oct.11, 2001

By FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting), a Jewish organization,
complaining about the fairness of reporting on FOX NEWS. The ad tells
us they are biased for Republicans. The real intent of the ad is to
have us believe that FOX NEWS is okay in all respects except that. The
fact is FOX NEWS is a flaming pro-Zionist/Jewish state propaganda
machine.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:32 EDT 2001
Article: 973617 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 'I pledge allegiance to whatever United States of America'
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:21:56 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.11, 2001

"Pledge Across U.S. Planned for Friday"

Tells us about a campaign initiated by the U.S. Secretary of
Education, Rod Paige calling on U.S. school children to recite the
'Pledge of Allegiance'.

What would this Rod Paige tell us if we asked him about the Jewish
state killing hundreds of children or the United States campaign to
bar food and medicine to the Iraqi children?  'Oh, that's different'. 

What is it with this Pledge of Allegiance anyway?

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands-
one nation indivisible-with liberty and justice for all."

"Under god"?  Whose god? Did god have a nation before the United
States ever existed? 

",with liberty and justice for all."?

Okay, got it. Aiding and abetting the Jewish state is "liberty and
justice". 

The 'Pledge of Allegiance' is one thing and United States policies are
the opposite thing. United States policy makes a mockery of the words
"liberty" and "justice".


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:33 EDT 2001
Article: 973625 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Suddenly, "hate crimes" may not be hate crimes
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:28:13 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.11, 2001

Crimes of Hate or Just Crime?

Despite near-daily reports of attacks against people who appear Middle
Eastern, the difficulty in determining what motivated the criminals
and the nations's imprecise system for tracking hate crimes make it
impossible to know how dramatically such violence has surged. ...

[ So there we have it. Before it was a slam dunk thing when it came to
bellowing "hate crimes" now it's suddenly kind of iffy when it comes
to hate crimes against Middle Eastern folk.]


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:33 EDT 2001
Article: 973630 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Fearing the truth. Don't listen to Usama bin Laden.
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 13:53:51 GMT
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Beginning about yesterday, Oct.10, 2001 we started to get on TV
programs and today Oct.11 in newspaper accounts complaints about
airing the full statements of Usama bin Laden. Calls of censorship.

Why? The main reason it seems, going by what they say, is that Usama
bin Laden could be giving directions to terrorists by way of secret
code. Maybe a wave of the hand could mean one thing or the twitch of a
finger another?

Now all we have to do is wonder how he went about directing all the
terrorist stuff before the appearance of these recent videos.

Is the world that stupid to believe that Usama bin Laden is sending
directions by secret code through the videos?  'YES', according to
whoever says so.

Of course the real reason why there is so much fear and machinations
coming out of the mouths of the media and government is that they
don't want the World to hear what Usama bin Laden has to say about
what motivates the acts.  Whereas U.S. officials unto the President of
the United States George Bush and the media lackeys will tell us the
attacks were against our freedoms and liberties Usama bin Laden tells
us it was because of the United States Mid East policy.




From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:34 EDT 2001
Article: 973634 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:15:13 GMT
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Mr.Keren blustered:
>>Just answer the question, poor old nazi clown. How long can
>>people survive when breathing such a mixture? "Who knows"?
>>That's all you can offer? Poor, poor, old nazi clown.
>>
>>Are you still claiming it would have been "years"?


Moran said:
>Don't you get it about the 'years' Mr.Keren? Whereas there are mucho
>case histories of persons being overcome and killed by the fumes of
>gasoline engines the only accounts we have for the dangers of Diesel
>are those that tell us about long term effects. That would mean that
>the Holocaust Diesel tales are totally inane.
>
>How is it you keep demanding answers while at the same time you don't
>address what's directed at you? Huh? What's the problem, are they too
>much for you? Huh?


Now Mr.Keren returns to bluster some more:
>Look at the thread's title, senile nazi. You composed it.
>
>Now, it is obvious that you cannot, or don't want to, answer 
>the question: how long can people survive when breathing the
>mixture which, according to the Holtz-Elliot paper, a diesel
>releases even when running in normal conditions (3 percent
>oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen
>oxides concentration). I am going to make it easier for you;
>here are a few options, choose the one which you think is 
>best.
>
>1) 5 minutes.
>
>2) 10 minutes.
>
>3) 20 minutes.
>
>4) 1 hour.
>
>5) 1 day.
>
>6) 1 month.
>
>7) 1 year.
>
>8) 10 years.
>
>Go ahead, nazi moron. We are waiting for your reply. Why can't
>you answer a simple question?


Wow. Mr.Keren returns with more of his grrrrs and snarls. Seems like
he's having a super hissy fit. You know, bouncing off the walls and
such.

Anyway Mr.Keren, definitely not any "1)", "2)", "3)". Maybe "4)".
"6)" most likely since the victims would starve to death in that time.

What about it Mr.Keren, are you going to growl and snarl something
about the alleged "carbon monoxide" that accompanies the Diesel tales?


Go get em Fido, sic it. Give it some arfs and yelps.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:34 EDT 2001
Article: 973659 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Propaganda stunt on "fairness and accuracy" in reporting.
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:23:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran reported:
>> Quarter page ad
>>
>> New York Times, Oct.11, 2001
>>
>> By FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting), a Jewish organization,
>> complaining about the fairness of reporting on FOX NEWS. The ad tells
>> us they are biased for Republicans. The real intent of the ad is to
>> have us believe that FOX NEWS is okay in all respects except that. The
>> fact is FOX NEWS is a flaming pro-Zionist/Jewish state propaganda
>> machine.

Some "Danny" says:
>Maybe so, Tommy.  Care to provide any data to support that assertion?
>
>I thought not.

Anyone that wants to see any "support that assertion" can watch 
FOX NEWS as it happens.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:34 EDT 2001
Article: 973660 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I pledge allegiance to whatever United States of America'
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:25:10 GMT
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Moran had concluded:
>> Okay, got it. Aiding and abetting the Jewish state is "liberty and
>> justice".

Some "Danny" says:
>Well, we aid and abet lots of other states too.  Like Kuwait; like Saudi
>Arabia; like England.


That too. Not to mention a lot of others in the past. Any way "Danny"
thanks for your recognizing that Israel is just one among the others.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:35 EDT 2001
Article: 973661 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suddenly, "hate crimes" may not be hate crimes
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:27:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran had reported:
>> Los Angeles Times, Oct.11, 2001
>>
>> Crimes of Hate or Just Crime?
>>
>> Despite near-daily reports of attacks against people who appear Middle
>> Eastern, the difficulty in determining what motivated the criminals
>> and the nations's imprecise system for tracking hate crimes make it
>> impossible to know how dramatically such violence has surged. ...
>>
>> [ So there we have it. Before it was a slam dunk thing when it came to
>> bellowing "hate crimes" now it's suddenly kind of iffy when it comes
>> to hate crimes against Middle Eastern folk.]

Some "Danny" says he has something:
>Hey, I've got one for you Tommy.
>
>Didja notice on the drudgereport last week that some people in New York are
>FALSELY CLAIMING to have lost relatives in the World Trade Center in order
>to collect insurance money?  The Attorney General is looking into
>prosecuting several cases of fraud like this already!
>
>So, there you have it Tommy.  First hand testimony from people claiming to
>be a part of the disaster are lies!
>
>Does this mean--by using standard denier logic--that the WTC disaster never
>occurred?


The topic was on "hate crimes" and "Danny" crows something about
people making false claims? 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:35 EDT 2001
Article: 973662 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fearing the truth. Don't listen to Usama bin Laden.
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 15:28:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID: <3be7ba8e.232377689@newsproxy.pacificnet.net>
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"Danny" doesn't like it when someone(s) complain about censorship:
>You and Tommy are starting to sound like a commercial for the ACLU!



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:36 EDT 2001
Article: 973670 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 16:02:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Keren blustered:
>>>Just answer the question, poor old nazi clown. How long can
>>>people survive when breathing such a mixture? "Who knows"?
>>>That's all you can offer? Poor, poor, old nazi clown.
>>>
>>>Are you still claiming it would have been "years"?

Moran said:
>>Don't you get it about the 'years' Mr.Keren? Whereas there are mucho
>>case histories of persons being overcome and killed by the fumes of
>>gasoline engines the only accounts we have for the dangers of Diesel
>>are those that tell us about long term effects. That would mean that
>>the Holocaust Diesel tales are totally inane.
>>
>>How is it you keep demanding answers while at the same time you don't
>>address what's directed at you? Huh? What's the problem, are they too
>>much for you? Huh?

Then Mr.Keren returned to bluster some more:
>>Look at the thread's title, senile nazi. You composed it.
>>
>>Now, it is obvious that you cannot, or don't want to, answer 
>>the question: how long can people survive when breathing the
>>mixture which, according to the Holtz-Elliot paper, a diesel
>>releases even when running in normal conditions (3 percent
>>oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen
>>oxides concentration). I am going to make it easier for you;
>>here are a few options, choose the one which you think is 
>>best.
>>
>>1) 5 minutes.
>>
>>2) 10 minutes.
>>
>>3) 20 minutes.
>>
>>4) 1 hour.
>>
>>5) 1 day.
>>
>>6) 1 month.
>>
>>7) 1 year.
>>
>>8) 10 years.
>>
>>Go ahead, nazi moron. We are waiting for your reply. Why can't
>>you answer a simple question?

Moran noticed, said and answered:
>Wow. Mr.Keren returns with more of his grrrrs and snarls. Seems like
>he's having a super hissy fit. You know, bouncing off the walls and
>such.
>
>Anyway Mr.Keren, definitely not any "1)", "2)", "3)". Maybe "4)".
>"6)" most likely since the victims would starve to death in that time.
>
>What about it Mr.Keren, are you going to growl and snarl something
>about the alleged "carbon monoxide" that accompanies the Diesel tales?
>
>
>Go get em Fido, sic it. Give it some arfs and yelps.


To that Mr.Keren barks:
>Ok, moron, let's focus here. You're saying that if people are
>exposed to a mixture as described above, the prime reason for
>death will be hunger?
>
>You're suggesting, for example, that it is "likely" that they
>will survive more than one day?


What Mr.Keren, nothing on the carbon monoxide?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:36 EDT 2001
Article: 973725 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fearing the truth. Don't listen to Usama bin Laden.
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 18:13:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>No Tom, its more a case of abundant security. Every measure taken, has to be
>weighed up against the possibilty of another terrorist attack.

>You should be gladdened to know your countries leaders are making every effort
>to protect you.

>Jason James


I think the record shows it was the "leaders" who made the Mid East
policy and the reason we got attacked was because of this policy. Get
it?  It was the "leaders" who brought it on us in the first place.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:36 EDT 2001
Article: 973818 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suddenly, "hate crimes" may not be hate crimes
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:54:17 GMT
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"Danny"  garbled:
>That's cause you weren't saying anything worth replying to Tommy.  You don't
>seem to understand the difference between anecdote and statistic.  If you
>did, you never would have written your original post in this thread.
>
>I thought I could change the subject to something more ironic and
>interesting.  Guess not.


Danny, did you connive yourself a job at some university ala
'assertive action' and are now teaching the kids some trash? 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:37 EDT 2001
Article: 973819 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fearing the truth. Don't listen to Usama bin Laden.
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:57:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Danny said:
>> >You and Tommy are starting to sound like a commercial for the ACLU!

Moran noticed his nuance and replied:
>> "Danny" doesn't like it when someone(s) complain about censorship:

Danny returns to say:
>You've got it backwards Tommy.  I was agreeing with you.  I complain about
>censorship too.  Why don't we both go and join the ACLU.  Better yet, why
>don't we both go join People for the American Way!
>
>There's lots more of us anti-censorship people with Jewish families just
>like you and me, Zeyde, in these organizations!

That's a problem. Jews getting themselves into and/or even starting up
'anti-censorship' clubs so they can control the degree and content of
the movement. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:37 EDT 2001
Article: 973823 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'I pledge allegiance to whatever United States of America'
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:01:08 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran had concluded:
>> >> Okay, got it. Aiding and abetting the Jewish state is "liberty and
>> >> justice".

"Danny" says:
>> >Well, we aid and abet lots of other states too.  Like Kuwait; like Saudi
>> >Arabia; like England.

Moran said:
>> That too. Not to mention a lot of others in the past. Any way "Danny"
>> thanks for your recognizing that Israel is just one among the others.

Now Danny returns with some standard Zionist/Jewish line:
>Have always recognized that, Tommy.
>
>And aiding and abetting Israel is working towards "liberty and justice" in
>that they are the only freely elected democracy in the Middle East, I
>believe (correct me if I am wrong).  Israel is far from perfect -- I gripe
>everyday about aspects of their policies -- but they do represent a bit of
>liberty and justice, albeit imperfect, in that part of the world.


How about we have a national vote in the United States on whether or
not we should continue to support the Jewish state? "Democracy"? The
word is totally bastardized by its connection to the Jewish state. All
one has to do hear the squeal of "Democracy" is to complain about the
Jewish state killing little kids.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:38 EDT 2001
Article: 973830 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fearing the truth. Don't listen to Usama bin Laden.
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:30:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>Tom,
>
>You're joking right?  Do you not recall the stories of US POWs in
>Vietnam blinking morse code while the VC video taped them?


No, I don't recall. Did they blink whole sentences, paragraphs, what?
Did they give away their locations or what they had for dinner? And
what did the VC do? Nothing?  Maybe you would have better luck
convincing some kids down by the school yard. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:38 EDT 2001
Article: 973835 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fearing the truth. Don't listen to Usama bin Laden.
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:34:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Danny said:
>>> >You and Tommy are starting to sound like a commercial for the ACLU!

Moran noticed his nuance and replied:
>>> "Danny" doesn't like it when someone(s) complain about censorship:

Danny returns to say:
>>You've got it backwards Tommy.  I was agreeing with you.  I complain about
>>censorship too.  Why don't we both go and join the ACLU.  Better yet, why
>>don't we both go join People for the American Way!
>>
>>There's lots more of us anti-censorship people with Jewish families just
>>like you and me, Zeyde, in these organizations!

Moran replied:
>That's a problem. Jews getting themselves into and/or even starting up
>'anti-censorship' clubs so they can control the degree and content of
>the movement. 

Moran adds on something:
What would we suspect from these Jews who get involved with free
speech movements if we wanted to include Holocaust denial and
crtiticism of the Jewish state?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:38 EDT 2001
Article: 973841 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: REPOST: WTC attack not about U.S. Mideast policy or military might
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:39:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran had said:
>> Today, as he has said in the past Bush said the attack on the World
>> Trade Center and Pentagon was an attack "against freedom".
>>
>> Almost as if the attack was on the Liberty Bell or Statue of Liberty.
>> Anything but the real reason, U.S. Mideast policy.

Danny tries out:
>You know, Tommy, your batting average this week is better than it usually
>is.  You are actually getting a few of your thoughts right.
>
>Stopped clock?  I don't know.
>
>Yes, the real reason for the attack was that the terrorists do not like our
>Middle East policies.  I am as frustrated as you that Bush makes these hokum
>speeches about them being against freedom.  I suspect they don't care too
>much what we do here if we would only leave them alone.
>
>The real question--and the point that divides you and me--is the question of
>whether our Middle East policies are reasonable.
>
>That area of the world is very complicated.  And our policies are much more
>complicated than you have even shown evidence of understanding.  But we do
>have some very real long term interests for being involved over there.  The
>flip side is that the Arabs have a legitimate gripe (IMHO) about not being
>left to govern their own region.
>
>But what we do need to keep in mind is that the terrorists do not represent
>the majority of the Arab population.  They are a relatively small band of
>fanatics who have shown no sense of reason or sense of compromise, as best I
>can tell.


That's the standard Jewish line about the Jewish state's existence in
the Middle East - "complicated" as Danny puts it, "complex" as it's
usually stated. It's all very simple. The Jews should get out of the
Palestinian lands, return the Golan Heights, the U.S. should cut off
all aid and the UN should demand that the Jewish state give up all its
weapons of mass destruction. The U.S. and world gets nothing positive
>from the Jewish state's bellicose actions. Only problems.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:39 EDT 2001
Article: 973867 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Assault on U.S. liberty / Assault on the USS Liberty
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:39:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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As a cover up as to why the attack on the World Trade Center and
Pentagon the battle cry of the establishment bellows that it was an
attack on our "freedoms" and "liberty". That's all very poetic since
the Jewish state intentionally attacked the USS Liberty and the
government failed to respond.  




From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:39 EDT 2001
Article: 973909 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fearing the truth. Don't listen to Usama bin Laden.
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:41:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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> Bin Laden is a casual bastard. Love to see his expression with a missile at 50
>metres and closing, although given his cave dwelling, a 'bunker-buster' may
>well be his nemesis.

>Jason James


Ah yes, we have this "Jason James" sitting home in a comfy chair
watching the action on TV and talks tough on the Internet about
someone doing something instead of going there to do it himself.

Any little Palestinian kid could just slap this "Jason James" silly.
After the first couple of seconds this "Jason James" would be crying
for his mommy and yelling, 'Someone give me a gun'.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:40 EDT 2001
Article: 974048 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:34:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Keren blustered:
>>>>Just answer the question, poor old nazi clown. How long can
>>>>people survive when breathing such a mixture? "Who knows"?
>>>>That's all you can offer? Poor, poor, old nazi clown.

>>>>Are you still claiming it would have been "years"?

Moran said:
>>>Don't you get it about the 'years' Mr.Keren? Whereas there are mucho
>>>case histories of persons being overcome and killed by the fumes of
>>>gasoline engines the only accounts we have for the dangers of Diesel
>>>are those that tell us about long term effects. That would mean that
>>>the Holocaust Diesel tales are totally inane.

>>>How is it you keep demanding answers while at the same time you don't
>>>address what's directed at you? Huh? What's the problem, are they too
>>>much for you? Huh?

Then Mr.Keren returned to bluster some more:
>>>Look at the thread's title, senile nazi. You composed it.

>>>Now, it is obvious that you cannot, or don't want to, answer 
>>>the question: how long can people survive when breathing the
>>>mixture which, according to the Holtz-Elliot paper, a diesel
>>>releases even when running in normal conditions (3 percent
>>>oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen
>>>oxides concentration). I am going to make it easier for you;
>>>here are a few options, choose the one which you think is 
>>>best.

>>>1) 5 minutes.
>>>
>>>2) 10 minutes.
>>>
>>>3) 20 minutes.
>>>
>>>4) 1 hour.
>>>
>>>5) 1 day.
>>>
>>>6) 1 month.
>>>
>>>7) 1 year.
>>>
>>>8) 10 years.

>>>Go ahead, nazi moron. We are waiting for your reply. Why can't
>>>you answer a simple question?

Moran noticed, said and answered:
>>Wow. Mr.Keren returns with more of his grrrrs and snarls. Seems like
>>he's having a super hissy fit. You know, bouncing off the walls and
>>such.
>>
>>Anyway Mr.Keren, definitely not any "1)", "2)", "3)". Maybe "4)".
>>"6)" most likely since the victims would starve to death in that time.
>>
>>What about it Mr.Keren, are you going to growl and snarl something
>>about the alleged "carbon monoxide" that accompanies the Diesel tales?
>>
>>
>>Go get em Fido, sic it. Give it some arfs and yelps.

To that Mr.Keren barked:
>>Ok, moron, let's focus here. You're saying that if people are
>>exposed to a mixture as described above, the prime reason for
>>death will be hunger?
>>
>>You're suggesting, for example, that it is "likely" that they
>>will survive more than one day?

Moran noticed and said:
>What Mr.Keren, nothing on the carbon monoxide?

Now Mr.Keren returns with more snarling:
>You know, one can almost feel sorry for you. Well, not really.
>
>Now, stop with the silly evasions, and answer a simple
>question. How long do you think that people can survive
>when breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen, 12 percent 
>carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen oxides concentration?
>
>Your previous replies were "who knows", and "most likely a
>month". Do you still think this is correct?
>
>Just answer the question, pathetic old man.


So you still can't bring yourself to muster up any snarling about the
alleged "carbon monoxide" that is associated with the Diesel tales
Mr.Keren? How is it you are citing these other components or lack of
components when the Holocaust tales say "carbon monoxide"?  Shouldn't
you be snarling something about the Holocaust 'facts' and not
something that you introduce?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:40 EDT 2001
Article: 974052 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Group - Picture a puddle of diarrhea
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:19:28 GMT
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New York Times, Oct.12, 2001

Some Pentagon Officials and Advisors Seek to Oust Iraq's Leader in
War's Next Phase

Washington; A tight knit group of Pentagon officials and defense
experts outside government is working to mobilize support for a
military operation to oust President Saddam Hussein of Iraq ...

The group, which some in the State Department and on Capitol Hill
refer to as the "Wolfowitz cabal", after Deputy Secretary of Defense
Paul D. Wolfowitz is laying the ground work for a strategy that
envisions the use of air support and the occupation of southern Iraq
...

Under this notion, American troops would also seize the oil fields
around Basra ...

The group is building its case despite President Bush's declaration
that the war against Afghanistan and Osama bin Laden' terrorist
network, Al Qaeda, must be fought first ...

The group has largely excluded the State Department, where Secretary
of State Colin Powell has adamantly argued that such an attack would
destroy the international coalition ... Both Powell and Vice President
Dick Chaney have said there is no evidence linking Iraq to the
attacks. ...


[ The members of the "group" are cited as Richard Perle, Jewish
fanatic who has written many diarrhea editorials about the
Palestinians and gets his nose in where it should be stepped on.

Then there's Newt Gingrich, one time the limelight of Congress ousted
>from Congress on a scandal seemingly now tying to regain some
recognition after being relegated to obscurity.

"The 16-member board includes Harold Brown, President Jimmy Carter's
defense secretary, Henry Kissinger; R.James Woolsey, director of
central intelligence in the Clinton administration; Adm.David E.
Jeremiah ...; former Vice President Dan Quayle; and James R.
Schlesinger ..."

Woosley is another one who has a number of editorials in the likes of
the New York Times telling us how evil the Palestinians are.

Of course Kissinger was and is nothing more than a Zionist mole.

And who? Dan Quayle? Are they that desperate? At one time this wimpy
little piece of crap said, "We are going to rely on the Israelis to
show us how to proceed in the Mid East".  Poor wittle Dan Quayle, a
real symbol of nothingness. He would sell out his own family to get a
chance at being someone. 
  
And then we have the Wolfowitz himself of this "Wolfowitz cabal". He's
the one that was sent around trying to build a coalition which
evidently resulted in him meeting or even creating some stone walls.
It seems that his name which was always in the news immediately after
the attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon has been relegated
to back stage.

If there was any guts in the Capitol of the United States of America
officials would hand "the group"'s names and photographs to all
security personnel in the area to make sure they got no access to
anywhere or anything.

What's up with the group's obsession with Saddam Hussein and Iraq?
They can't stand it that they have endured and continue to defy the
United States which sets an example that there are those in the world
that will stand up. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:40 EDT 2001
Article: 974053 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish people control America
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:24:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID: <3bfde0ab.307682214@newsproxy.pacificnet.net>
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>Look McVay I have read your comments a lot.
>
>Analyzing you isn't very difficult ha are one of the fleeciest characters I have
>ever encountered.
>I do not know how much the Jews are Paying you for confusing and distorting
>facts. But I guess
>you have no character you do not even now what character means.
>I see only falsehood in you genes it must be inborn in you the same as you
>history.
>
>Describing David Irving as a Liar irks me.
>
>Especially when someone with less money is confronted with the almighty Jewish
>league
>and mockery is made out of Justes.
>
>Kurt Knoll


It's a fact that will become known to humanity in the future that a
strong mind and a iron will or the lack of is genetically inherent.
mCVay is just genetically weak.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:40 EDT 2001
Article: 974059 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The symbolic fate of the American flag
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:52:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Everyone will have noticed by now there is a flag hysteria taking
place. It hasn't been a universally accepted thing right from the
start. Maybe no more than one out of thirty cars fly the flag and
maybe no more than one in ten houses display it. Nevertheless, a major
flag campaign is still in the news. 

As the cars race around it's inevitable that some of the Old Glories
get detached and flutter to the surfaces of the streets. When that
happens it seems no one goes out of their way to stop and pick them
up, the traffic just racing over them. If they haven't been there too
long they will get sucked up by a passing car to flutter a bit until
they fall, over and over again until they end up like one on a major
boulevard in the Los Angeles area where it has been pounded down and
stuck to the tar. It's been there for two days now. Symbolism can
manifest in strange ways.




From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:41 EDT 2001
Article: 974062 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!nntp-relay.ihug.net!ihug.co.nz!telocity-west!TELOCITY!sn-xit-03!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Anthrax - Jewish state to the rescue
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 12:58:02 GMT
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E-mail received:

"As we all know, our world has now changed since the September 11
attacks on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. 
We have enemies that are willing to go to any length to destroy our
country.  We do not know what they may try next, but Attorney General
John Ashcroft says there is 100% chance they will try something in the
future, the question is, what will the do, and where will they do it? 


As we all know, there is a threat that these terrorists may try to
attack next with CHEMICAL or BIOLOGICAL weapons. 

That is why we at MultiRX, have recently added to our line of products
items that you can use to protect yourself and your family. 


We now offer Gas Masks that are 100% Certified by the Israeli Army.
...

To order Cipro, Gas Masks, or any of our other life changing products,
please click on the link below 

http://www.deskofgold.com/cindex.htm 

Thank you, and GOD BLESS AMERICA!"     


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:41 EDT 2001
Article: 974096 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Anthrax and Jewishness
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:44:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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A few years ago the spectre of Anthrax was bellowed upon the American
people. As the documented history of the archives of the Los Angeles
and New York Times will show it was Jews who were bellowing the
subject the most, associating the Anthrax scare with the names of the
enemies of the Jewish state. Jewish columnists and editorials bellowed
for Anthrax vaccinations for the United States military and eventually
the Senators and Generals fell to their knees, as usual, and hundreds
of thousands of United States troops were vaccinated. 

Following this a number of negative side effects this vaccine had on
the troops was being reported and it can be said now that some 20% are
suffering from some kind of symptoms.

The Anthrax scare is a totally Jewish 'imspired' thing. When it comes
to selling out the whole society United States Senators and military
generals will do anything to make sure they don't become targets of
Jewish intrigues.

   


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:42 EDT 2001
Article: 974107 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: N.Y.C. Mayor says fuck you to $10 million for WTC fund 
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:39:15 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.12, 2001

Giuliani Refuses Saudi's Check

Donations: New York mayor rejects $10 million, citing prince's
remarks urging the U.S. to revise its policy on Palestinians.

[ Okay, that's all we need to know about that. The piece of crap
Guiliani should be just taken down to the ruins of the World Trade
Center and thrown on one of the barges taking the debris to the
dumps.] 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:42 EDT 2001
Article: 974109 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Group - Picture a puddle of diarrhea
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:46:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>"The 16-member board includes Harold Brown, President Jimmy Carter's
>defense secretary, Henry Kissinger; R.James Woolsey, director of
>central intelligence in the Clinton administration; Adm.David E.
>Jeremiah ...; former Vice President Dan Quayle; and James R.
>Schlesinger ..."


Counting Wolfowitz that would make it seven out of the cited 16
members of the "cabal". Who are the other 9? Probably mostly if not
all Jews.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:42 EDT 2001
Article: 974254 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 23:36:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Keren blustered:
>>>>>Just answer the question, poor old nazi clown. How long can
>>>>>people survive when breathing such a mixture? "Who knows"?
>>>>>That's all you can offer? Poor, poor, old nazi clown.

>>>>>Are you still claiming it would have been "years"?

Moran said:
>>>>Don't you get it about the 'years' Mr.Keren? Whereas there are mucho
>>>>case histories of persons being overcome and killed by the fumes of
>>>>gasoline engines the only accounts we have for the dangers of Diesel
>>>>are those that tell us about long term effects. That would mean that
>>>>the Holocaust Diesel tales are totally inane.

>>>>How is it you keep demanding answers while at the same time you don't
>>>>address what's directed at you? Huh? What's the problem, are they too
>>>>much for you? Huh?

Then Mr.Keren returned to bluster some more:
>>>>Look at the thread's title, senile nazi. You composed it.

>>>>Now, it is obvious that you cannot, or don't want to, answer 
>>>>the question: how long can people survive when breathing the
>>>>mixture which, according to the Holtz-Elliot paper, a diesel
>>>>releases even when running in normal conditions (3 percent
>>>>oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen
>>>>oxides concentration). I am going to make it easier for you;
>>>>here are a few options, choose the one which you think is 
>>>>best.
>
>>>>1) 5 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>2) 10 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>3) 20 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>4) 1 hour.
>>>>
>>>>5) 1 day.
>>>>
>>>>6) 1 month.
>>>>
>>>>7) 1 year.
>>>>
>>>>8) 10 years.
>
>>>>Go ahead, nazi moron. We are waiting for your reply. Why can't
>>>>you answer a simple question?

Moran noticed, said and answered:
>>>Wow. Mr.Keren returns with more of his grrrrs and snarls. Seems like
>>>he's having a super hissy fit. You know, bouncing off the walls and
>>>such.

>>>Anyway Mr.Keren, definitely not any "1)", "2)", "3)". Maybe "4)".
>>>"6)" most likely since the victims would starve to death in that time.

>>>What about it Mr.Keren, are you going to growl and snarl something
>>>about the alleged "carbon monoxide" that accompanies the Diesel tales?

>>>Go get em Fido, sic it. Give it some arfs and yelps.

To that Mr.Keren barked:
>>>Ok, moron, let's focus here. You're saying that if people are
>>>exposed to a mixture as described above, the prime reason for
>>>death will be hunger?
>>>
>>>You're suggesting, for example, that it is "likely" that they
>>>will survive more than one day?

Moran noticed and said:
>>What Mr.Keren, nothing on the carbon monoxide?

Mr.Keren returned with more snarling:
>>You know, one can almost feel sorry for you. Well, not really.

>>Now, stop with the silly evasions, and answer a simple
>>question. How long do you think that people can survive
>>when breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen, 12 percent 
>>carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen oxides concentration?
>>
>>Your previous replies were "who knows", and "most likely a
>>month". Do you still think this is correct?
>>
>>Just answer the question, pathetic old man.

Moran said:
>So you still can't bring yourself to muster up any snarling about the
>alleged "carbon monoxide" that is associated with the Diesel tales
>Mr.Keren? How is it you are citing these other components or lack of
>components when the Holocaust tales say "carbon monoxide"?  Shouldn't
>you be snarling something about the Holocaust 'facts' and not
>something that you introduce?

Mr.Keren comes back with some more yelps and snarls:
>The exhaust would have killed the victims very quickly even if
>the engine was not mistuned to produce carbon monoxide. Did the
>exhaust contain a lot of CO? We don't know for sure, but it's
>a moot point. Because, as the Holtz-Elliot paper proves, a
>diesel will release highly poisonous exhaust even when running
>in normal conditions - see below.
>
>Now answer the question already, you boring, senile fool:
>
>How long do you think that people can survive when breathing 
>a mixture with 3 percent oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, 
>soot, and high nitrogen oxides concentration? Are you still
>claiming it would have been a "month"? 
>
>Why are you refusing to answer this simple question, old fool?

The fact is the Holocaust 'facts' don't say anything about any of
Mr.Keren's "oxygen", "carbon dioxide" or "nitrogen dioxide". The
'facts' mention "carbon monoxide" and Diesel exhaust doesn't have any
significant amount of carbon monoxide and thus there are no case
histories of anyone suffering from it in the short range, only the
long range - like years. On the other hand the exhaust of gasoline
engines is a known lethal agent and there are plenty of case histories
of people being overcome by that in the short range. 

Mr.Keren makes a squawk that Diesel would have been a suitable lethal
agent if it was directed into chambers yet why would the Germans use
Diesel instead of gasoline exhaust? 

Maybe Mr.Keren would come back and say that Diesel engines were more
plentiful than gasoline engines yet we're not talking about thousands
or even hundreds or even scores of engines needed. According to the
story there wouldn't be any more than 5 used for the combined total of
those said to have been used at Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor. And
then we are told at times that the whole extermination program was a
super efficient killing machine plotted out by a "Master Plan" so how
would it come to have Diesel exhaust instead of gasoline exhaust? Of
course Mr.Keren could resort to trying to say that Diesel fuel would
have been more available than gasoline yet we wouldn't be talking
about any more than 10 or 15 gallons a day.  After all it would have
taken thousands of gallons of fuel just to get the 20 to 40 thousand
victims each day to the places of mass extermination in the first
place so a few more gallons wouldn't make any difference with any fuel
allotments. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:43 EDT 2001
Article: 974473 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Suspected terrorist" was behind Anthrax attack
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:13:23 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.13, 2001

[ Under -

IN BRIEF

[ We get -

Florida 

Suspected Terrorist Said to Have Visited Druggist

A man believed to be one of the hijackers in the terrorist attacks
visited a drugstore in Delray Beach ... for medications to treat a
burning sensation in his hands ...

Gregg Chatterton, co-owner of Huber Discount Drugs, said the man he
identified as Mohamed Atta was evasive about the cause ...

Chatterton said Atta was accompanied by a man the pharmacist later
identified from photos as suspected hijacker Marwan al-Shehhi ...

The FBI and Food and Drug Administration's criminal unit questioned
him twice this week and asked whether the men had inquired about
anthrax antibodies, Chatterton said. He told them that they had not.

[ How did the FBI and such get this connection? Did the pharmacist
call them up? And how did the writer/Los Angeles Times get onto the
story? How is they didn't interview any government agents?

Most likely the whole thing is phony. Even if it isn't the only thing
we have is the two visiting a drug store.

But then again, we have the Los Angeles Times giving us the connection
of "Florida" where the first anthrax incident happened and
"Terrorist"/"Druggist".   


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:43 EDT 2001
Article: 974474 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "U.S" backs Guiliani's rejection of Saudi $10 million offer
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:14:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.13, 2001

[ Under -

IN BRIEF	

[ We get -

Washington, DC

U.S. Backs Giuliani in Dispute With Prince

The U.S.Government backed New York mayor Rudolph Guiliani in his
dispute with Prince Al Waleed ibn Adbulaziz al Saud of Saudi Arabia
over Al Waleed's linkage of the attacks of Sept.11 to the Arab-Israeli
conflict.

Giuliani had rejected Al Waleed's offer of a $10 million donation for
victims of the Wo9rld Trade Center attack after the prince said U.S.
policy in the Middle East was among the causes that led to the
attacks.

In a later development, the billionaire Saudi prince said that the
mayor misunderstood him.

In and interview with Newsday from Saudi Arabia, the prince also
lambasted the assault on Manhattan.

"I think this misunderstanding was that we were giving a
justification," the prince said. "I would be the last one to give a
rationale for the attack."

[ And who is this "U.S." we see in the title of the article?  Nothing
whatsoever to tell us so we can only assume the "U.S." in this case
would be whoever wrote the short article.

When it comes to the "U.S." said or endorsed something in the likes of
the Los Angeles Times it can quite often be nothing more than one name
cited in an article or as in this case, no name whatsoever. ] 



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:43 EDT 2001
Article: 974475 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The usual  hypers
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:15:00 GMT
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Lod Angeles Times, Oct.13, 2001

[ As to the biological and chemical warfare theme we have under -

Voices

A Forum For Community Issues


Early Detection Is the Key
by Jonathan Fielding

and 

Immunize Everyone Now
by Burton Sokoloff


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:44 EDT 2001
Article: 974476 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Attack wasn't a Islamic thing
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:15:15 GMT
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We keep seeing and hearing it time and again, the attack ("terrorism")
on the World Trade Center and Pentagon wasn't the result of Islamic
teaching or what's to be found in the Koran.

Yet, we keep seeing the term "Islamic terror" and other variations.

Take for instance  -

Los Angeles Times, Oct.13, 2001

The Deep Intellectual Roots of Islamic Terror

[ Regardless of whether or not the article goes on to try and look
like it's at odds with such notions the title stands out and hits us
first. 

"Islamic terror", that's what we're supposed to think.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:44 EDT 2001
Article: 974478 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Summary - tommie moran's Claims Concerning Diesel Exhaust
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 14:27:00 GMT
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Poor Mr.Keren, he's so desperate. Here we have him with a "summary":

>When asked how long people can survive when breathing a mixture with
>3 percent oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen 
>oxides concentration, tommie moran first replied "who knows". When
>pressed for a more definitive reply, he said that it would most
>likely take a month, as the people would first starve to death.
>
>Again: tommie moran claims that, when exposed to such a mixture,
>people will starve to death faster than the lack of oxygen would
>kill them.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.


This is how Moran goes about it. Here's the full account.
=========================================================

Moran had posted -

Diesel--the Dark Side of Industry

L.A.Times, May 30, 1999

Emissions from trucks, trains and machines pose a serious threat,
clogging lungs, damaging airways and triggering allergies.

D___ L_____ life went up in a puff of smoke, black smoke.

For two days in a row, as he unloaded baggage from jets at Los Angeles
International Airport, clouds of soot poured out of a malfunctioning
diesel-powered loading engine. ... But now his head ached, his eyes
burned and his nose ran. ....

Examined by a doctor, L____ was shocked to learn ... "industrial
asthma" caused by the intense bouts of diesel smoke exposure.

.....

Less than three years later, in 1997, L____ died at the age of 59--a
victim, apparently, of a rare case of death by diesel. 

....


===================================================================
Whereas cases of persons being overcome by fumes from gasoline engines
are legion, there are no compilations of cases for death by Diesel
fumes.

Perhaps 4 million of the alleged 6 million exterminated Jews are said
to have been killed with fumes from various types of engines with most
of the tales identifying Diesel engines as the source.


Mr.Keren popped in to bluster:
>>>>>Just answer the question, poor old nazi clown. How long can
>>>>>people survive when breathing such a mixture? "Who knows"?
>>>>>That's all you can offer? Poor, poor, old nazi clown.

>>>>>Are you still claiming it would have been "years"?

Moran said:
>>>>Don't you get it about the 'years' Mr.Keren? Whereas there are mucho
>>>>case histories of persons being overcome and killed by the fumes of
>>>>gasoline engines the only accounts we have for the dangers of Diesel
>>>>are those that tell us about long term effects. That would mean that
>>>>the Holocaust Diesel tales are totally inane.

>>>>How is it you keep demanding answers while at the same time you don't
>>>>address what's directed at you? Huh? What's the problem, are they too
>>>>much for you? Huh?

Then Mr.Keren returned to bluster some more:
>>>>Look at the thread's title, senile nazi. You composed it.

>>>>Now, it is obvious that you cannot, or don't want to, answer 
>>>>the question: how long can people survive when breathing the
>>>>mixture which, according to the Holtz-Elliot paper, a diesel
>>>>releases even when running in normal conditions (3 percent
>>>>oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen
>>>>oxides concentration). I am going to make it easier for you;
>>>>here are a few options, choose the one which you think is 
>>>>best.
>
>>>>1) 5 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>2) 10 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>3) 20 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>4) 1 hour.
>>>>
>>>>5) 1 day.
>>>>
>>>>6) 1 month.
>>>>
>>>>7) 1 year.
>>>>
>>>>8) 10 years.
>
>>>>Go ahead, nazi moron. We are waiting for your reply. Why can't
>>>>you answer a simple question?

Moran noticed, said and answered:
>>>Wow. Mr.Keren returns with more of his grrrrs and snarls. Seems like
>>>he's having a super hissy fit. You know, bouncing off the walls and
>>>such.

>>>Anyway Mr.Keren, definitely not any "1)", "2)", "3)". Maybe "4)".
>>>"6)" most likely since the victims would starve to death in that time.

>>>What about it Mr.Keren, are you going to growl and snarl something
>>>about the alleged "carbon monoxide" that accompanies the Diesel tales?

>>>Go get em Fido, sic it. Give it some arfs and yelps.

To that Mr.Keren barked:
>>>Ok, moron, let's focus here. You're saying that if people are
>>>exposed to a mixture as described above, the prime reason for
>>>death will be hunger?
>>>
>>>You're suggesting, for example, that it is "likely" that they
>>>will survive more than one day?

Moran noticed and said:
>>What Mr.Keren, nothing on the carbon monoxide?

Mr.Keren returned with more snarling:
>>You know, one can almost feel sorry for you. Well, not really.

>>Now, stop with the silly evasions, and answer a simple
>>question. How long do you think that people can survive
>>when breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen, 12 percent 
>>carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen oxides concentration?
>>
>>Your previous replies were "who knows", and "most likely a
>>month". Do you still think this is correct?
>>
>>Just answer the question, pathetic old man.

Moran said:
>So you still can't bring yourself to muster up any snarling about the
>alleged "carbon monoxide" that is associated with the Diesel tales
>Mr.Keren? How is it you are citing these other components or lack of
>components when the Holocaust tales say "carbon monoxide"?  Shouldn't
>you be snarling something about the Holocaust 'facts' and not
>something that you introduce?

Mr.Keren came back with some more yelps and snarls:
>The exhaust would have killed the victims very quickly even if
>the engine was not mistuned to produce carbon monoxide. Did the
>exhaust contain a lot of CO? We don't know for sure, but it's
>a moot point. Because, as the Holtz-Elliot paper proves, a
>diesel will release highly poisonous exhaust even when running
>in normal conditions - see below.
>
>Now answer the question already, you boring, senile fool:
>
>How long do you think that people can survive when breathing 
>a mixture with 3 percent oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, 
>soot, and high nitrogen oxides concentration? Are you still
>claiming it would have been a "month"? 
>
>Why are you refusing to answer this simple question, old fool?

Moran replied:
>The fact is the Holocaust 'facts' don't say anything about any of
>Mr.Keren's "oxygen", "carbon dioxide" or "nitrogen dioxide". The
>'facts' mention "carbon monoxide" and Diesel exhaust doesn't have any
>significant amount of carbon monoxide and thus there are no case
>histories of anyone suffering from it in the short range, only the
>long range - like years. On the other hand the exhaust of gasoline
>engines is a known lethal agent and there are plenty of case histories
>of people being overcome by that in the short range. 
>
>Mr.Keren makes a squawk that Diesel would have been a suitable lethal
>agent if it was directed into chambers yet why would the Germans use
>Diesel instead of gasoline exhaust? 
>
>Maybe Mr.Keren would come back and say that Diesel engines were more
>plentiful than gasoline engines yet we're not talking about thousands
>or even hundreds or even scores of engines needed. According to the
>story there wouldn't be any more than 5 used for the combined total of
>those said to have been used at Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor. And
>then we are told at times that the whole extermination program was a
>super efficient killing machine plotted out by a "Master Plan" so how
>would it come to have Diesel exhaust instead of gasoline exhaust? Of
>course Mr.Keren could resort to trying to say that Diesel fuel would
>have been more available than gasoline yet we wouldn't be talking
>about any more than 10 or 15 gallons a day.  After all it would have
>taken thousands of gallons of fuel just to get the 20 to 40 thousand
>victims each day to the places of mass extermination in the first
>place so a few more gallons wouldn't make any difference with any fuel
>allotments. 



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:44 EDT 2001
Article: 974482 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish people control America
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:06:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>Have you read your latest Comic Book you have the IQ of a Potato.
>
>Kurt Knoll.

Mr.Knoll, you don't have to spend any time responding to Jeffwey
Bwown. He's ethnocentrically insane/inane and he steps all over
himself. Just engage him your program "Kill" setting and he ceases to
exist. Of course he may get around to changing his user ID to get
around "Kill" settings which in that case all you have to do is not
click up whatever he whines about, all you have to do is click
"delete" and he's swatted like the fly he is.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:45 EDT 2001
Article: 974485 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Killing children sometimes justifiable
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:12:27 GMT
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Is a policy of killing children sometimes okay?

Yes. 

Just ask any Senator, movie star of Jew about the Jewish state
shooting Palestinian children and you'll get the answer.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:45 EDT 2001
Article: 974487 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Do you want to hear the "democracy" word?
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:14:48 GMT
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Just ask any U.S. Congressional member, movie star, media person or
Jew about the Jewish state shooting Palestinian children and you'll
get the "democracy" word.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:46 EDT 2001
Article: 974488 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The instantaneous solution to Mid East "terrorism"
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:21:50 GMT
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If the United States ceased and desisted from aiding and abetting the
Jewish state of Israel, stopped bombing the Iraqi people on behalf of
the Jewish state and demonizing all Arab/Muslim states on behalf of
the Jewish state any Arab/Muslim counterattacks on America would cease
immediately.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:46 EDT 2001
Article: 974502 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Death by Dissel takes years
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 16:04:53 GMT
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Mr.Keren blustered:
>>>>>Just answer the question, poor old nazi clown. How long can
>>>>>people survive when breathing such a mixture? "Who knows"?
>>>>>That's all you can offer? Poor, poor, old nazi clown.

>>>>>Are you still claiming it would have been "years"?

Moran said:
>>>>Don't you get it about the 'years' Mr.Keren? Whereas there are mucho
>>>>case histories of persons being overcome and killed by the fumes of
>>>>gasoline engines the only accounts we have for the dangers of Diesel
>>>>are those that tell us about long term effects. That would mean that
>>>>the Holocaust Diesel tales are totally inane.

>>>>How is it you keep demanding answers while at the same time you don't
>>>>address what's directed at you? Huh? What's the problem, are they too
>>>>much for you? Huh?

Then Mr.Keren returned to bluster some more:
>>>>Look at the thread's title, senile nazi. You composed it.

>>>>Now, it is obvious that you cannot, or don't want to, answer 
>>>>the question: how long can people survive when breathing the
>>>>mixture which, according to the Holtz-Elliot paper, a diesel
>>>>releases even when running in normal conditions (3 percent
>>>>oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen
>>>>oxides concentration). I am going to make it easier for you;
>>>>here are a few options, choose the one which you think is 
>>>>best.
>
>>>>1) 5 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>2) 10 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>3) 20 minutes.
>>>>
>>>>4) 1 hour.
>>>>
>>>>5) 1 day.
>>>>
>>>>6) 1 month.
>>>>
>>>>7) 1 year.
>>>>
>>>>8) 10 years.
>
>>>>Go ahead, nazi moron. We are waiting for your reply. Why can't
>>>>you answer a simple question?

Moran noticed, said and answered:
>>>Wow. Mr.Keren returns with more of his grrrrs and snarls. Seems like
>>>he's having a super hissy fit. You know, bouncing off the walls and
>>>such.

>>>Anyway Mr.Keren, definitely not any "1)", "2)", "3)". Maybe "4)".
>>>"6)" most likely since the victims would starve to death in that time.

>>>What about it Mr.Keren, are you going to growl and snarl something
>>>about the alleged "carbon monoxide" that accompanies the Diesel tales?

>>>Go get em Fido, sic it. Give it some arfs and yelps.

To that Mr.Keren barked:
>>>Ok, moron, let's focus here. You're saying that if people are
>>>exposed to a mixture as described above, the prime reason for
>>>death will be hunger?
>>>
>>>You're suggesting, for example, that it is "likely" that they
>>>will survive more than one day?

Moran noticed and said:
>>What Mr.Keren, nothing on the carbon monoxide?

Mr.Keren returned with more snarling:
>>You know, one can almost feel sorry for you. Well, not really.

>>Now, stop with the silly evasions, and answer a simple
>>question. How long do you think that people can survive
>>when breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen, 12 percent 
>>carbon dioxide, soot, and high nitrogen oxides concentration?
>>
>>Your previous replies were "who knows", and "most likely a
>>month". Do you still think this is correct?
>>
>>Just answer the question, pathetic old man.

Moran said:
>So you still can't bring yourself to muster up any snarling about the
>alleged "carbon monoxide" that is associated with the Diesel tales
>Mr.Keren? How is it you are citing these other components or lack of
>components when the Holocaust tales say "carbon monoxide"?  Shouldn't
>you be snarling something about the Holocaust 'facts' and not
>something that you introduce?

Mr.Keren comes back with some more yelps and snarls:
>The exhaust would have killed the victims very quickly even if
>the engine was not mistuned to produce carbon monoxide. Did the
>exhaust contain a lot of CO? We don't know for sure, but it's
>a moot point. Because, as the Holtz-Elliot paper proves, a
>diesel will release highly poisonous exhaust even when running
>in normal conditions - see below.
>
>Now answer the question already, you boring, senile fool:
>
>How long do you think that people can survive when breathing 
>a mixture with 3 percent oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, 
>soot, and high nitrogen oxides concentration? Are you still
>claiming it would have been a "month"? 
>
>Why are you refusing to answer this simple question, old fool?

Moran replied:
>The fact is the Holocaust 'facts' don't say anything about any of
>Mr.Keren's "oxygen", "carbon dioxide" or "nitrogen dioxide". The
>'facts' mention "carbon monoxide" and Diesel exhaust doesn't have any
>significant amount of carbon monoxide and thus there are no case
>histories of anyone suffering from it in the short range, only the
>long range - like years. On the other hand the exhaust of gasoline
>engines is a known lethal agent and there are plenty of case histories
>of people being overcome by that in the short range. 
>
>Mr.Keren makes a squawk that Diesel would have been a suitable lethal
>agent if it was directed into chambers yet why would the Germans use
>Diesel instead of gasoline exhaust? 
>
>Maybe Mr.Keren would come back and say that Diesel engines were more
>plentiful than gasoline engines yet we're not talking about thousands
>or even hundreds or even scores of engines needed. According to the
>story there wouldn't be any more than 5 used for the combined total of
>those said to have been used at Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor. And
>then we are told at times that the whole extermination program was a
>super efficient killing machine plotted out by a "Master Plan" so how
>would it come to have Diesel exhaust instead of gasoline exhaust? Of
>course Mr.Keren could resort to trying to say that Diesel fuel would
>have been more available than gasoline yet we wouldn't be talking
>about any more than 10 or 15 gallons a day.  After all it would have
>taken thousands of gallons of fuel just to get the 20 to 40 thousand
>victims each day to the places of mass extermination in the first
>place so a few more gallons wouldn't make any difference with any fuel
>allotments. 

Mr.Keren returns (snarling omitted):
>The fact is that the testimonies of Schulch and Prof. Pfannenstiel
>do indicate that the victims died from lack of oxygen, But that is
>not the important issue.


So Mr.Keren has a couple of accounts that says the victims suffocated
for lack of oxygen? But what about the ones that say something about
"carbon monoxide"? What, still no comment on that? 

Since Mr.Keren now has defined his position as meaning the Jews died
of lack of oxygen lets take a look at that. The tales tell us all the
chambers were air tight so therefore - Put Jews in, close doors, wait
a few minutes, open doors and take out bodies. The chambers are said
to have been about 12 x 12 x 8 feet with some 300 to 800 Jews packed
in. Lets take the lower figure, 300 Jews times their displacement of
space thus air volume, say 2 cubic feet each = 600 cubic feet of air
displaced leaving say 600 cubic feet of air or 2 cubic feet of air for
each Jew to breath. Lets envision a box that a microwave oven might
come in as an example of that 2 cubic feet of volume. How long could
someone last if that's all the air they had to breath? Each breath
would take in so much volume of air and each exhale would give back a
certain quantity of carbon dioxide making each subsequent inhale
taking in less and less oxygen. Lets say 10 minutes of breathing time
which would be an over estimate. Thus we would have the Jews dying in
just ten minutes without any kind of exhaust.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:46 EDT 2001
Article: 974534 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Summary - tommie moran's Claims Concerning Diesel Exhaust
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:40:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Keren has shown up in the thread under the initial article with
this latest (snarling omitted):
>The fact is that the testimonies of Schulch and Prof. Pfannenstiel
>do indicate that the victims died from lack of oxygen, But that is
>not the important issue.


So Mr.Keren has a couple of accounts that says the victims suffocated
for lack of oxygen? But what about the ones that say something about
"carbon monoxide"? What, still no comment on that? 

Since Mr.Keren now has defined his position as meaning the Jews died
of lack of oxygen lets take a look at that. The tales tell us all the
chambers were air tight so therefore - Put Jews in, close doors, wait
a few minutes, open doors and take out bodies. The chambers are said
to have been about 12 x 12 x 8 feet with some 300 to 800 Jews packed
in. Lets take the lower figure, 300 Jews times their displacement of
space thus air volume, say 2 cubic feet each = 600 cubic feet of air
displaced leaving say 600 cubic feet of air or 2 cubic feet of air for
each Jew to breath. Lets envision a box that a microwave oven might
come in as an example of that 2 cubic feet of volume. How long could
someone last if that's all the air they had to breath? Each breath
would take in so much volume of air and each exhale would give back a
certain quantity of carbon dioxide making each subsequent inhale
taking in less and less oxygen. Lets say 10 minutes of breathing time
which would be an over estimate. Thus we would have the Jews dying in
just ten minutes without any kind of exhaust.

  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:47 EDT 2001
Article: 974539 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "U.S" backs Guiliani's rejection of Saudi $10 million offer
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:48:31 GMT
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Beginning to the trash:

>Washington, DC
>
>U.S. Backs Giuliani in Dispute With Prince

[ Very witty, heading it all as if it came out of "Washington, DC".


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:47 EDT 2001
Article: 974545 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Summary - tommie moran's Claims Concerning Diesel Exhaust
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:02:14 GMT
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Mr.Keren had come up with this as his last reply in the in the thread
under the initial article (snarling omitted):
>The fact is that the testimonies of Schulch and Prof. Pfannenstiel
>do indicate that the victims died from lack of oxygen, But that is
>not the important issue.

Prof. Pfannenstiel is the guy, SS Hygienist who confessed to having
witnessed a gassing at Belzec. As is the norm for most confessions he
said he only witnessed one (1) gassing. 

Prof. Pfannenstiel said that a vast spinning industry was implemented
in Belzec to process the hair of Jews that was even bigger than all
the spinning industry in Germany itself. 

His 'testimony' (confession) is an ideal example of how a Holocaust
'fact' of such grand proportions can be founded on the words of one
individual and it is in deed a Holocaust 'fact' even though there is
nothing else to show it, like corroborating testimonies, records for
acquisition of machinery, exact location where it all took place and
the existence of any products ever having been made from any human
hair.  

Even UFO tales give more than what we get from the sources of
Holocaust 'facts'.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:47 EDT 2001
Article: 974546 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: N.Y.C. Mayor says fuck you to $10 million for WTC fund
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:05:59 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.13, 2001

[ Under -

IN BRIEF	

[ We get -

Washington, DC

U.S. Backs Giuliani in Dispute With Prince

The U.S.Government backed New York mayor Rudolph Guiliani in his
dispute with Prince Al Waleed ibn Adbulaziz al Saud of Saudi Arabia
over Al Waleed's linkage of the attacks of Sept.11 to the Arab-Israeli
conflict.

Giuliani had rejected Al Waleed's offer of a $10 million donation for
victims of the Wo9rld Trade Center attack after the prince said U.S.
policy in the Middle East was among the causes that led to the
attacks.

In a later development, the billionaire Saudi prince said that the
mayor misunderstood him.

In and interview with Newsday from Saudi Arabia, the prince also
lambasted the assault on Manhattan.

"I think this misunderstanding was that we were giving a
justification," the prince said. "I would be the last one to give a
rationale for the attack."

[ And who is this "U.S." we see in the title of the article?  Nothing
whatsoever to tell us so we can only assume the "U.S." in this case
would be whoever wrote the short article.

When it comes to the "U.S." said or endorsed something in the likes of
the Los Angeles Times it can quite often be nothing more than one name
cited in an article or as in this case, no name whatsoever. ] 



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:48 EDT 2001
Article: 974547 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: $WI$$ bank accounts not Jew$
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:11:25 GMT
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Times of London | OCTOBER 13 2001

Swiss Holocaust cash revealed to be myth

BY ADAM SAGE IN PARIS AND ROGER BOYES IN BERLIN


MOST dormant Swiss bank accounts thought to have belonged to Holocaust
survivors were opened by wealthy, non-Jewish people who then forgot
about their money.

The announcement marks the end of a four-year independent
investigation into the archives and vaults of the world's most
secretive banking system. It will come as a disappointment to many
Jewish families, who were sure that their dead relatives left behind
fortunes in Switzerland.

A 17-member tribunal based in Zurich was set up in 1997 to investigate
the identities of 5,500 foreign accounts and 10,000 Swiss accounts
that have lain dormant since the end of the Second World War.

The tribunal said that it had processed about 10,000 claims in
response to the list of dormant account names published by the Swiss
Bankers' Association five years ago. Only 200 accounts - containing
£6.9 million - could be traced to Holocaust victims.

"It was a very difficult and often sad process," Alexander Jolles, the
secretary-general of the Independent Claims Tribunal, said. "When we
first set up the tribunal, we were sure that nearly all these accounts
would be those of Nazi victims. But few were."

Seventy-nine per cent of the accounts declared dormant by the Swiss
banks were traced to wealthy families who had lost trace of their
money.

One French family told researchers that they had simply forgotten
about the SwFr200,000 placed in a Swiss account before the war.

Mr Jolles said that many of the accounts were small, with only 5 per
cent containing more than SwFr100,000 (£42,300). About half contained
less than SwFr1,000 and a third held less than SwFr100. The smallest
contained SwFr0.08.

"I would guess that the holders withdrew money from them during the
war and then left a small sum in them, which was subsequently
forgotten about," he said. "These people were not poor. They were
pretty much the same sort of people who would put their money in Swiss
bank accounts today.

"The biggest groups were French and Americans, but there were also
Italians, Germans and others. Some were no doubt aristocrats, but by
no means all."

The biggest account was a securities investment containing SwF4
million that was handed to a wealthy southern European family. "Two
generations had gone by and the descendants who are alive today had
lost trace of this money. It had just gone on growing in the
meantime."

Many of the accounts were opened in the 1920s when Switzerland was
seen, as it still is, as a haven in a troubled world. In 1936, a large
number of French aristocrats and industrialists placed money there
after a radical left-wing Government came to power. At least one
account dated from the 19th century.

Claims were filed for about half the 5,570 foreign-owned accounts
discovered. "In prewar days, a hotel address was sufficient to open an
account," Mr Jolles said. "So finding the truth was extremely
difficult.

"We had claimants from 70 different countries speaking more than 15
different languages, and co-ordinating these people and drawing up
their family trees has been a complicated business. Sometimes we had
125 people claiming the same account. Since there was no way of
distinguishing between them, the banks had to pay out to all of them."

Switzerland came under heavy criticism in 1997-98 for its reluctance
to consider wartime claims. The United States threatened it with
sanctions and relatives of Holocaust victims launched class action
lawsuits in the US.

The Swiss banks agreed to a settlement of $1.5 billion (£1.03 billion)
on the understanding that they would be spared further Holocaust
claims. The banks say they will pay the costs of tracking down the
dormant accounts from their own coffers.

                      


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:48 EDT 2001
Article: 974555 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: $WI$$ bank accounts not Jew$
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:27:16 GMT
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As to this extract from initial article:

>Switzerland came under heavy criticism in 1997-98 for its reluctance
>to consider wartime claims. The United States threatened it with
>sanctions and relatives of Holocaust victims launched class action
>lawsuits in the US.


In the initial phase of the filthy extortion scheme against the Swiss
nation the Jews had claimed they had vast dormant bank accounts in
Swiss banks.

The law suit above involved 18,000 Jewish claimants and was filed in
the United States. The Swiss did two sweeps of all the records within
a year and found no more than two accounts connected to any Jews. The
Jews then dreamed up a new angle to get the Swiss $,$$$,$$$,$$$, that
the Swiss aided and abetted the German war and that's what the payoff
was founded on.

The initial 18,000 claimants shows that lying is a institutional thing
with the Jewish community. Just like the 3,000,000 names of alleged
Holocaust victims that can found listed at the Yad Vashem Holocaust
center in the Jewish state. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:48 EDT 2001
Article: 974581 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Summary - tommie moran's Claims Concerning Diesel Exhaust
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 19:50:37 GMT
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Moran had introduced a little information about the source from
Mr.Keren:
># Prof. Pfannenstiel said that a vast spinning industry was implemented
># in Belzec to process the hair of Jews that was even bigger than all
># the spinning industry in Germany itself. 

Mr.Keren snarls:
>No, you senile clown. He said nothing of the sort. He was quoting
>Globocknic. Even if what Globocknic said was nonsense, it means
>nothing with respect to Pfannenstiel's testimony, as he was only
>quoting Globocknic.
>
>Now tell the truth, poor old man. We've been through this dozens
>of times maybe; I have corrected you on this point exactly many times.
>Are you really so senile that you forgot, or are you deliberately
>lying?
>
>Also, did Globocknic mention hair as the source of material for
>the mills?
>
>Also, weren't there mills built near Lublin which used material
>provided from the "Reinhard camps", including Belzec?


Sure we've been through all this many times Mr.Keren. I keep setting
the record straighter and you keep coming back with more snarling and
nonsense.

You say Pfannenstiel got his stuff from Globocknic? That's correct.
But then again all we have is what Pfannenstiel himself said and
nothing to prove he got it from someone else. You know, you're the
confession expert out here, there's all sorts of confessions that say
what they say they got from someone else, isn't that right?  

You say above Mr.Keren, "Also, did Globocknic mention hair as the
source of material for the mills?"?

Globocknic didn't say anything Mr.Keren, all we have is Pfannenstiel
saying he said something, correct?  Your right about Pfannenstiel not
saying anything about any hair, he just said "materials" from Jews.
You say the materials for the alleged spinning industry wouldn't be
hair? 

You say Mr.Keren, "Also, weren't there mills built near Lublin which
used material provided from the "Reinhard camps", including Belzec?"?

I don't know Mr.Keren, do you have something really sound, credible
that there were any mills near Lublin and that they would be enough to
be more vast than all the mills in Germany? You say "material" was
sent from all the camps to this Lublin? "Material" Mr.Keren?  And do
you have anything credible to show all this "material" was sent from
all the "Reinhard camps"?

You said something about "deliberately lying" Mr.Keren?
 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:49 EDT 2001
Article: 974660 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack wasn't a Islamic thing
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:00:00 GMT
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Moran had said among other things:
># We keep seeing and hearing it time and again, the attack ("terrorism")
># on the World Trade Center and Pentagon wasn't the result of Islamic
># teaching or what's to be found in the Koran.
>#
># Yet, we keep seeing the term "Islamic terror" and other variations.

Mr.Keren snivels and whines:
>Like all racists, tommie the nazi trashie doesn't even understand
>in what a grand contradiction he lives.
>
>Here we have a mass murder,  planned and carried out by Muslims,
>who claim to act in the spirit of Islam, and who are widely supported
>in the Muslim world.
>
>And tommie rushes to defend other Muslims and Islam in general,
>insisting that these people do not represent Islam and other
>Muslims. He may be right. tommie is so liberal and enlightened
>when Muslims are concerned. That's nice, it really is.
>
>Alas, the very same tommie moran adopts another approach when
>Jews are concerned. He uses expressions like "Jewish diarrhea"
>(which is acceptable to him, while "Islamic terror" is not). He
>routinely blames all Jews for the alleged wrongdoings of any
>single Jew. He routinely posts poisonous antisemitic propaganda.
>
>That, for him, is perfectly fine. The compassion and understanding
>he displays towards Muslims, vanish when Jews are concerned. When
>Jews are concerned, racism is no problem for him. Hatered is no
>problem for him. Wild generalizations are fine with him. Branding
>anything bad allegedly done by a Jew as a "Jewish evil" is fine
>with him.
>
>As I said, the filthy nazi cockroach probably doesn't even
>realize the contradiction. These creatures are doomed to 
>lead a blind existence until they do the world a favor and
>croak.

But then again when Moran says anything about Jews he says why. The
record it there. 

Do the Arabs/Muslims go around crying and whining and insisting they
are victims of some lie?

Do the Arabs/Muslims cry when someone says nasty things about them as
we see in and on out major media?

Do the Arabs/Muslims put quarter, half and full page hate ads in our
newspapers? 

Do the Arabs/Muslims insist we teach certain things to our children?

Do the Arabs/Muslims incite us to go to war against there enemies?

Do the Arabs/Muslims saturate our TV stations with cartoon trash?

Do the Arabs/Muslims tell us Jews are trash like the Jews tell us the
Arab/Muslims are? 

Is it Arabs/Muslims in Hollywood putting out trash?

Do the Arabs/Muslims get into any of the trash that Jews are into?
 
Do the Arabs/Muslims try to tear up our constitution.


Go cry your one brain cell out Mr.Keren. You reek, unlike Arabs and
Muslims who have some grace. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:49 EDT 2001
Article: 974661 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Examples of things that are not "terrorism"
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:00:15 GMT
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These are a few of the things that are not "terrorism" according to
the United States government, military and news media.

Jews killing Palestinian children.

Jews demolishing Palestinian homes.

Jews plowing up Palestinian agricultural means.

Jews closing down Palestinian schools and colleges for years on end.

Repeated invasion of Lebanon and the routing of its civilians by the
Jewish state.

United States bombing nations for days and nights on end that are
defenseless.

The United States bombing civilians and shrugging shoulders that it's
only "collateral damage".

United States initiated boycott of foods and medicine to the Iraqi
people.

United States aiding and abetting the Jewish state of Israel.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:50 EDT 2001
Article: 974662 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The instantaneous solution to Mid East "terrorism"
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:00:33 GMT
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On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:59:29 -0700, "P2" <0@0.com> wrote:

>Sad but true. All terrorism from the Middle East is based on our policy of
>supporting Israel.
>
>The problem is if we start doing the opposite, we would be dealing with
>Zionist terrorist and considering Jews are in a position of power here, it
>would almost be impossible for the US to stop.


Ah yes, the whole of the United States is under the threat of
extortion? If the Jews started anything here there wouldn't be any
place on earth they could run to. The whole world has an attitude.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:50 EDT 2001
Article: 974663 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Summary - tommie moran's Claims Concerning Diesel Exhaust
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:00:49 GMT
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Moran had introduced a little information about the source from
Mr.Keren:
>># Prof. Pfannenstiel said that a vast spinning industry was implemented
>># in Belzec to process the hair of Jews that was even bigger than all
>># the spinning industry in Germany itself. 

Mr.Keren snarled:
>>No, you senile clown. He said nothing of the sort. He was quoting
>>Globocknic. Even if what Globocknic said was nonsense, it means
>>nothing with respect to Pfannenstiel's testimony, as he was only
>>quoting Globocknic.
>>
>>Now tell the truth, poor old man. We've been through this dozens
>>of times maybe; I have corrected you on this point exactly many times.
>>Are you really so senile that you forgot, or are you deliberately
>>lying?
>>
>>Also, did Globocknic mention hair as the source of material for
>>the mills?
>>
>>Also, weren't there mills built near Lublin which used material
>>provided from the "Reinhard camps", including Belzec?

Moran replied in detail:
>Sure we've been through all this many times Mr.Keren. I keep setting
>the record straighter and you keep coming back with more snarling and
>nonsense.
>
>You say Pfannenstiel got his stuff from Globocknic? That's correct.
>But then again all we have is what Pfannenstiel himself said and
>nothing to prove he got it from someone else. You know, you're the
>confession expert out here, there's all sorts of confessions that say
>what they say they got from someone else, isn't that right?  
>
>You say above Mr.Keren, "Also, did Globocknic mention hair as the
>source of material for the mills?"?
>
>Globocknic didn't say anything Mr.Keren, all we have is Pfannenstiel
>saying he said something, correct?  Your right about Pfannenstiel not
>saying anything about any hair, he just said "materials" from Jews.
>You say the materials for the alleged spinning industry wouldn't be
>hair? 
>
>You say Mr.Keren, "Also, weren't there mills built near Lublin which
>used material provided from the "Reinhard camps", including Belzec?"?
>
>I don't know Mr.Keren, do you have something really sound, credible
>that there were any mills near Lublin and that they would be enough to
>be more vast than all the mills in Germany? You say "material" was
>sent from all the camps to this Lublin? "Material" Mr.Keren?  And do
>you have anything credible to show all this "material" was sent from
>all the "Reinhard camps"?
>
>You said something about "deliberately lying" Mr.Keren?


To that Mr.Keren returns with a whole volley of snarling and foaming
at the mouth:
>Sigh. tommie, you poor imbecile, try to think, if that's not
>asking too much.
>
>You attacked Prof. Pfannenstiel's reliability by lying to the
>effect that he said so-and-so about some spinning mills. But
>you lied; he clearly said he was only quoting Globocknic.
>
>So, you're a liar. You misquoted the professor.
>
>If you would lie like this in court, you would have been
>committing perjury. You lied; you didn't tell the truth.
>
>Yet again: you tried to question the reliability of
>person A, by attributing to him a certain statement
>which you claim he said. But he didn't; he clearly said
>that person B made this statement to him.
>
>You lied. You then squealed out a pathetic excuse for
>lying, but that still change things; you lied.
>
>The question about the existence of the mills is of
>some interest, but it does not concern the professor's
>reliability. It concerns Globocknic's reliability. I
>am not particularly interested in it; IIRC, Goldhagen
>writes extensively about the mills. But it is a moot
>point as far as the professor's reliability is
>concerned, and this is what we're discussing here. 
>
>You are a liar.
 

It's okay Mr.Keren if you want to dodge verifying your claims, like
the alleged spinning industry you claim about being in Lublin or what
kind of "materials" would have been gotten from the Jews for spinning
or where you would have gotten your claim that these "materials" were
sent to Lublin from all the other camps. If the only thing you have is
"lie", "lying" and "liar" that's your problem.



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:50 EDT 2001
Article: 974668 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-04!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack wasn't a Islamic thing
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 23:31:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran had said among other things:
>># We keep seeing and hearing it time and again, the attack ("terrorism")
>># on the World Trade Center and Pentagon wasn't the result of Islamic
>># teaching or what's to be found in the Koran.
>>#
>># Yet, we keep seeing the term "Islamic terror" and other variations.

Mr.Keren sniveled and whined:
>>Like all racists, tommie the nazi trashie doesn't even understand
>>in what a grand contradiction he lives.
>>
>>Here we have a mass murder,  planned and carried out by Muslims,
>>who claim to act in the spirit of Islam, and who are widely supported
>>in the Muslim world.
>>
>>And tommie rushes to defend other Muslims and Islam in general,
>>insisting that these people do not represent Islam and other
>>Muslims. He may be right. tommie is so liberal and enlightened
>>when Muslims are concerned. That's nice, it really is.
>>
>>Alas, the very same tommie moran adopts another approach when
>>Jews are concerned. He uses expressions like "Jewish diarrhea"
>>(which is acceptable to him, while "Islamic terror" is not). He
>>routinely blames all Jews for the alleged wrongdoings of any
>>single Jew. He routinely posts poisonous antisemitic propaganda.
>>
>>That, for him, is perfectly fine. The compassion and understanding
>>he displays towards Muslims, vanish when Jews are concerned. When
>>Jews are concerned, racism is no problem for him. Hatered is no
>>problem for him. Wild generalizations are fine with him. Branding
>>anything bad allegedly done by a Jew as a "Jewish evil" is fine
>>with him.
>>
>>As I said, the filthy nazi cockroach probably doesn't even
>>realize the contradiction. These creatures are doomed to 
>>lead a blind existence until they do the world a favor and
>>croak.

Moran returned:
>But then again when Moran says anything about Jews he says why. The
>record it there. 
>
>Do the Arabs/Muslims go around crying and whining and insisting they
>are victims of some lie?
>
>Do the Arabs/Muslims cry when someone says nasty things about them as
>we see in and on out major media?
>
>Do the Arabs/Muslims put quarter, half and full page hate ads in our
>newspapers? 
>
>Do the Arabs/Muslims insist we teach certain things to our children?
>
>Do the Arabs/Muslims incite us to go to war against there enemies?
>
>Do the Arabs/Muslims saturate our TV stations with cartoon trash?
>
>Do the Arabs/Muslims tell us Jews are trash like the Jews tell us the
>Arab/Muslims are? 
>
>Is it Arabs/Muslims in Hollywood putting out trash?
>
>Do the Arabs/Muslims get into any of the trash that Jews are into?
> 
>Do the Arabs/Muslims try to tear up our constitution.
>
>
>Go cry your one brain cell out Mr.Keren. You reek, unlike Arabs and
>Muslims who have some grace. 

Oh yea, Mr.Keren, did Moran forget to include that Arabs/Muslims
aren't the ones putting in full page ads in newspapers trying to
incite the nuke someone.



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:50 EDT 2001
Article: 974783 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Summary - tommie moran's Claims Concerning Diesel Exhaust
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:01:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Keren snivels, spews, foams, etc:

>tommie moran initiated this thread by claiming that "Dissel 
>[sic] exhaust takes years to kill".
>
>I replied that, according to the oft-quoted Holtz-Elliot paper,
>even a diesel running in normal conditions produces an exhaust
>consisting of 3 percent oxygen, 12 percent carbon dioxide, soot,
>and high concentrations of nitrogen oxides. I asked tommie how
>long he believes people can survive when breathing this mixture.
>
>tommie's first reply was "who knows". When pressured for an
>answer, he came back with "most likely a month", and added
>that the victims would first starve to death.
>
>tommie moran claims that people will die faster of starvation
>than from breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen.
>
>Again:
>
>tommie moran claims that people will die faster of starvation
>than from breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen.
>
>Again:
>
>tommie moran claims that people will die faster of starvation
>than from breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen.


Poor Mr.Keren, he's so desperate.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:51 EDT 2001
Article: 974793 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The instantaneous solution to Mid East "terrorism"
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:17:14 GMT
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"Christopher Morton" opines:

...

>What is a Nazi?

According to Jews a Holocaust revisionist or anti-Zionist is a "Nazi".

>A Nazi is above all else, a craven coward.

Holocaust revisionists and anti-Zionists are willing to say it in
public and challenge debate whereas anti-revisionists and pro-Zionists
cry "anti-Semitism", "hate", "racist", etc. 

>A Nazi is afraid to compete with others as 
>equals because he knows he can't measure up.

Holocaust revisionists have such organizations as 'Committee for Open
Debate on the Holocaust' but the anti-revisionists cry
'anti-Semitism", "hate", "racist", etc.

>A Nazi is afraid of his own inadequacy, so 
>he wants to murder his betters.

Anti-revisionists support the imprisonment of Holocaust revisionism.
Anti-revisionists/pro Zionist insist on killing little kids and demand
that the rest of the world accept it as if it was high morality.

>A Nazi is afraid of the truth, so he wants 
>to murder those who tell it.

Holocaust revisionists have such organizations as 'Committee for Open
Debate on the Holocaust' whereas anti-revisionists opt for censorship.


>A Nazi is afraid of history, so he wants to 
>murder the past, to wipe out the knowledge 
>of the degeneracy, cowardice and failure of 
>National Socialism.

Anti-revisionists and pro-Zionists insist on the world believing in
historical lies.

>Finally, a Nazi is afraid of the power of 
>educated, informed adults.  Freedom of 
>choice terrifies him... which is why he 
>chooses minor children as sexual partners.  
>He can't interact with competent adults in 
>a consensually sexual way.  He needs to be 
>able to impose himself on a helpless victim, 
>be it a prepubescent boy, or a patient in a 
>mental hospital.
>
>These are the things that a Nazi is, and 
>there's nothing polite or honest about it.

Holocaust revisionists place ads in University newspapers directed at
the educated whereas anti-revisionists and pro-Zionist cry like little
babies and bellow "anti=Semitism", "hate", "racist", etc.

According to anti-revisionists and pro-Zionist a Nazi is one who
doesn't fall for the lies and doesn't like the Jews killing little
kids.



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:51 EDT 2001
Article: 974816 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ukraine missile hit plane ala the L.A.Times
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:17:45 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.14, 2001

After 9 Days, Ukraine Says Its Missile Hit A Russian Jet

by Michael Wines

Moscow; In strained language that acknowledged only a "tragic
coincidence", Ukraine's president, Leonid Kuchma, stated today that he
accepted investigators' preliminary finding that his military
accidentally destroyed a Russian airliner over the Black Sea last week
with an errant missile.

Mr.Kuschma's written statement released tonight, did not explicitly
state that the military was at fault. "Obviously, final results of the
commission's inquiry will be known after experts complete their
in-depth investigation ...."

Earlier today Ukraine's military had taken responsibility after nine
days ...

Seventy-eight people, ... died ... when the Siberian airlines flight
exploded and plunged 35,000 feet ...

Russian investigators concluded on Friday that one of the missiles, an
s-300, struck the drone, but that the second, an S-200 flew 150 more
miles and unleashed a warhead of shrapnel balls on the airliner.

A recorded radio transmission ... showed the pilot ... crying, "Where
are we hit". ...

Today, the commander of Ukraine's air defense forces, .... and his
deputy turned in their resignations ...

...

Investigators said on Friday that an analysis of 350 shrapnel holes in
recovered aircraft wreckage indicated that the S-200 had exploded
about 50 feet above the airliner. ...

Experts say that the radar guided S-200 ... locked onto the Russian
airliner after it raced past the destroyed drone some 20 miles off the
Crimean coast.

In an interview ... an official ... said it was theoretically possible
for the missile to "retarget" after missing its original target, if
the new object has a sufficiently bright radar signal and is
relatively slow moving.

He added however, that to his knowledge such retargeting had never
occurred in tests.

Both Ukrainian and Russian officials insisted ... that all missiles
had been accounted for an that none had flown more than 25 miles ...

Mr.Kuchma called an accidental aircraft strike impossible. Mr.Tkachyov
said all Ukrainian data showed that a missile could not have struck
the plane.

...

But last week, a evidence to the contrary accumulated, President
Vladimir V. Putin of Russian said publicly that Ukraine's proof was
insufficient. ...   



[ In the initial stages of reporting on the downed plane we were told
about a "cylinder" and even a "nose cone" of a missile being found
either floating in the water among the wreckage or in the remaining
fuselage. Now we have it just holes.

The plane is said to have been some 200 miles away from the test area.
The tests all involved going after drone targets within a 35 mile
range. It says any "retargeting" would require a clear radar image and
that the object be relatively slow moving. First we see that the
missiles were radar directed. Thus we have it that the initial radar
targeting would have been directed to nearby drones, within the 35
mile range and that 22 out of 23 missiles fired hit their targets or
didn't go outside of that range and that one out of the 23 was
supposed to have locked in on the airliner another 165 miles away
flying at 35,000 feet. What would be the speed the plane in relation
to the "relatively slow moving" requirement for hitting the plane on
retargeting? Who knows.

Even going by such things as the Ukraine officials resigning and other
tricky wording we still can't get any certainty out of the L.A.Times
article as to the plane being definitely hit by a missile. 

As the record of reporting on the incident shows it has been parties
"officials" in the United States that insisted right from the
beginning that the plane was brought down by a missile. Even before
the Jewish state itself said anything. Why is it that "terrorism" is
so grasp at by the Jewish state and its subordinate United States and
they are the ones that are trying to insist the plane was brought down
accidently?       


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:51 EDT 2001
Article: 974818 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Examples of things that are not "terrorism"
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:21:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Seems we have gotten some 'response' from one of the peanut gallery.
Here it is again only here we have the initial article with his
comments at the end:

>These are a few of the things that are not "terrorism" according to
>the United States government, military and news media.
>
>Jews killing Palestinian children.
>
>Jews demolishing Palestinian homes.
>
>Jews plowing up Palestinian agricultural means.
>
>Jews closing down Palestinian schools and colleges for years on end.
>
>Repeated invasion of Lebanon and the routing of its civilians by the
>Jewish state.
>
>United States bombing nations for days and nights on end that are
>defenseless.
>
>The United States bombing civilians and shrugging shoulders that it's
>only "collateral damage".
>
>United States initiated boycott of foods and medicine to the Iraqi
>people.
>
>United States aiding and abetting the Jewish state of Israel.


"Jason James" squeaks:
>Ahhhh,..Tom? You seem to be getting a bit overloaded there, what with all the
>crap posts you're generating. Why dont you ask DEM to take up some of the
>slack? Ohh,..I forgot, last time you got a public dressing down for being such
>a fuckwit. Have you pulled your socks up yet?



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:52 EDT 2001
Article: 974819 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The instantaneous solution to Mid East "terrorism"
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:24:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran said:
>> If the United States ceased and desisted from aiding and abetting
>> the Jewish state of Israel, stopped bombing the Iraqi people on
>> behalf of the Jewish state and demonizing all Arab/Muslim states on
>> behalf of the Jewish state any Arab/Muslim counterattacks on
>> America would cease immediately.

Mr.Morris, "@ University of Alberta" squawks:
>And would America have to change its foreign policy when the next set
>of murderous bullies came along who didn't like it?
>
>Would you still support the murderers of your fellow citizens?


"Still"?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:52 EDT 2001
Article: 975063 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The instantaneous solution to Mid East "terrorism"
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:45:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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"Christopher Morton" opines:

...

>What is a Nazi?

According to Jews a Holocaust revisionist or anti-Zionist is a "Nazi".

>A Nazi is above all else, a craven coward.

Holocaust revisionists and anti-Zionists are willing to say it in
public and challenge debate whereas anti-revisionists and pro-Zionists
cry "anti-Semitism", "hate", "racist", etc. 

>A Nazi is afraid to compete with others as 
>equals because he knows he can't measure up.

Holocaust revisionists have such organizations as 'Committee for Open
Debate on the Holocaust' but the anti-revisionists cry
'anti-Semitism", "hate", "racist", etc.

>A Nazi is afraid of his own inadequacy, so 
>he wants to murder his betters.

Anti-revisionists support the imprisonment of Holocaust revisionism.
Anti-revisionists/pro Zionist insist on killing little kids and demand
that the rest of the world accept it as if it was high morality.

>A Nazi is afraid of the truth, so he wants 
>to murder those who tell it.

Holocaust revisionists have such organizations as 'Committee for Open
Debate on the Holocaust' whereas anti-revisionists opt for censorship.


>A Nazi is afraid of history, so he wants to 
>murder the past, to wipe out the knowledge 
>of the degeneracy, cowardice and failure of 
>National Socialism.

Anti-revisionists and pro-Zionists insist on the world believing in
historical lies.

>Finally, a Nazi is afraid of the power of 
>educated, informed adults.  Freedom of 
>choice terrifies him... which is why he 
>chooses minor children as sexual partners.  
>He can't interact with competent adults in 
>a consensually sexual way.  He needs to be 
>able to impose himself on a helpless victim, 
>be it a prepubescent boy, or a patient in a 
>mental hospital.
>
>These are the things that a Nazi is, and 
>there's nothing polite or honest about it.

Holocaust revisionists place ads in University newspapers directed at
the educated whereas anti-revisionists and pro-Zionist cry like little
babies and bellow "anti=Semitism", "hate", "racist", etc.

According to anti-revisionists and pro-Zionist a Nazi is one who
doesn't fall for the lies and doesn't like the Jews killing little
kids.



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:53 EDT 2001
Article: 975065 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feeder.qis.net!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ukraine missile hit plane ala the L.A.Times
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 00:53:16 GMT
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Teh Russian newspaper Pravda's version.
=======================================

Ukraine admitted that a missile S-200 could hit the Russian passenger
airliner that was following the route from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk.
The head of the anti-missile defense troops admitted that the
unpremeditated destruction of Tu-154 plane was a tragic accident.
Before, however, all Ukrainian political and military leaders were
protecting their non-participation in the tragedy, they insisted on
that, as if they had admitted their was a malfunction in the
anti-aircraft complex, they would have been accused of international
terrorism. Ukraine took an idiotic position we are brotherly countries
and there could not be such an accident. Ukraine was standing
stubbornly on that position until it was driven into a corner. The
major principle was to reject everything. 

There have been no military exercises performed in the area, where the
actual crash took place, - the district is too close to the air
traffic zones, in which a lot of passenger jets fly. But this is
another subject to talk about may be about the qualification of senior
military officials of Ukraine, who are sending in their resignations
now. American media informed about the possible version of the plane
crash, Russia was collecting evidence, but Ukraine was hurriedly
fishing for that missile, which should have been self-destroyed. The
country tried to count kilometers from the plane to the missile, set
up its own commission for investigating the reasons of the plane
crash. This was done pursuant to the decision made by President Leonid
Kuchma who has done it all having said there should not be a tragedy
made of it. 

Now it is awkward to listen to late condolences 8 days after the
tragedy, after the joint Russian-Israeli commission found indisputable
evidence. I am ready to take all conclusions of the experts for
granted, the commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian anti-missile defense
troops, Tkachev said. 

Ukraine’s Defense Minister also apologized today in front of the
relatives of those who died as a result of the crash: We do not know
the actual reason of the crash, but we do know that we are involved in
it. 

Anyway, it seems that the Ukrainian military men knew about the real
reason why it happened. They were just hoping the catastrophe would
not be unveiled. They just wanted to protect their interdepartmental
interests. 



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:53 EDT 2001
Article: 975100 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Summary - tommie moran's Claims Concerning Diesel Exhaust
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 02:20:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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On Sun, 14 Oct 2001 19:32:46 GMT, Paul Kneisel 
wrote:

>I can sympathize with Keren's views.
>
>But there is another hypothesis: human(?) cynicism.
>
>To wit, fascist advertising jingles.
>
>Here people like Moran don't publish what they believe to be true; they
>publish what a few others might believe to be true. ...

>
>Thus the 3% claim creates the possibility that a few people will believe it
>and so conclude the Nazi crimes against humanity didn't happen.
>
>The strategy that uses advertising jingles must constantly publish new
>jingles anew. The "3%" issue is raised and then dropped for the "no ashes"
>jingle. Then this is dropped and the jingle of "Soviet show trials" is
>used, to be dropped ... until ... the "3%" jingle is raised anew.
>
>  --  tallpaul (Paul Kneisel)
>      


Why it's a rare appearance by Mr.Kneisel, aka Johann Sebastian Bot who
shouts down the newsgroup with 50 to 100 posts a day because he can't
stand anyone else getting a line in edgewise.

Anyway that's not relevant to what Mr.Kneisel is trying.

>Thus the 3% claim creates the possibility that a few people will believe it
>and so conclude the Nazi crimes against humanity didn't happen.
>
>The strategy that uses advertising jingles must constantly publish new
>jingles anew. The "3%" issue is raised and then dropped for the "no ashes"
>jingle. Then this is dropped and the jingle of "Soviet show trials" is
>used, to be dropped ... until ... the "3%" jingle is raised anew.

What is Mr.Kneisel trying to say anyway? Something about 3%, evidently
picking up on Mr.Keren's proposal that the reason the Germans used
Diesel in stead of gasoline fumes, or some other kind of gas was
because Diesel fumes only had 3% oxygen. The fact is Holocaust tales
tell us "carbon monoxide" was the intended agent. Mr.Keren, and his
mimic Mr.Kneisel aren't really doing anything to make Holocaust
'facts' credible since they aren't dealing with what the Holocaust
'facts' say. All they have is something that Mr.Keren has dreamt up
himself because Diesel fumes don't contain any significant amounts of
carbon monoxide. In fact carbon monoxide doesn't even show up in the
environmental considerations of Diesel exhaust nor are there any case
histories of persons being overcome by Diesel exhaust. 

The fact is, Diesel exhaust would have been a totally inane choice for
the Germans to use for the purposes of mass extermination.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:53 EDT 2001
Article: 975232 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:37:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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"Lennart Svensson" wrote:

>The level of tone of these newsgroups. Make me hesitant to send this mail. I
>never been a member of a political group. Surfing through a couple of
>revisionist sites these last weeks, have made me 99% sure that the so called
>Holocaust is a HOAX !  It was Absolutly mindblowing for a couple a days. The
>nazis were definetly no good guys.
>But there is no evidence that they physicly wanted to exterminate the
>jews.Two points I am sure of.
>1. There is not one single document from the whole nazi-administration or
>the whermacht that support this.A fact that the so called "Holocausters"
>admit. This  fact is just astonishing.
>2. There was no policy from the nazis to exterminate the jews."The final
>solution" meant the expoltion of jews from nazi-ocupied teritory. The
>"Holocausters" claim that this is some kind of doubletalk or code. But it
>seem redicuolos.The burden of proof is on them.
>3. There is no physical evidence. No smoking gun. This however the
>"Holocausters" still claim there is.But it needs only a small investigation
>of  the facts and first you realise that there are some questionmarks. And
>then a little deeper it becomes clear how absolouy rediculous the whole
>thing is. Not one single jew or other human being was gassed at Auswitch or
>any other koncentrationcamp during ww 2. Auswitsch served two purposes.
>1. transitioncamp
>2. And most important a laborcamp.
>Auswitsch was certainly no holidaycamp. The prisoners suffered. But are you
>aware of the fact. That Auswitch had a Theater and concerthall ( Concert
>every week) a swimmingpool . And a brothel (sic!) for the inmates.
>
>A recommend the Brad Smith revisionistsite CODOH.


Actually I personally never thought that the absence of documents that
would show a written order or such for the alleged Holocaust would be
proof there never was one. 

Now when you get to your point number 3 that's where the story really
falls apart. All it would take to show the world the story is a hate
crime fake is two hour program on TV by revisionists.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:54 EDT 2001
Article: 975236 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Summary - tommie moran's Claims Concerning Diesel Exhaust
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:31:03 GMT
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Mr.Keren chants:
>The fact is that tommie moran claims that people can 
>survive for a month when breathing a mixture with 3
>percent oxygen.
>
>Again:
>
>tommie moran claims that people can survive for a month 
>when breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen.
>
>Again:
>
>tommie moran claims that people can survive for a month 
>when breathing a mixture with 3 percent oxygen.

Did I say a month, or a year? Who knows since Mr.Keren doesn't cut and
paste what I said and what I was responding to.

Now would be a good time to let on that I have sneaked into Mr.Keren's
quarters some time back and installed a secret camera and microphone
to watch Mr.Keren as he sits at his computer. 

When Mr.Keren wakes up in the morning the first thing he does is to
take a drink of sulphuric acid. He then sits at his rig. He doesn't
begin right away to up date alt.revisionism. First he sits and huffs
and puffs trying to get himself mentally prepared for what he's going
to encounter from Moran. When he reaches for his mouse there is some
hesitation. He makes a move with his wimpy hand and then withdraws it.
After a few times of this he manages to grab it and he makes all the
necessary clicks to update the group. All the time he is grumbling to
himself, 'That f______ nazi'. After everything is updated Mr.Keren
then goes to click up whatever Moran has posted. Just as he does when
he first clicks the necessary functions to update the group he tries
to do it but keeps faltering and mumbling to himself, 'That f______
nazi'.  Finally he gets up the gumption and 'CLICK'. Up comes what
Moran has for him. As he reads it Mr.Keren begins to tremble. 'F_____
nazi' he keeps mumbling to himself. As he gets more and more of what
Moran has written he jumps up and starts to bang his head on the wall.
He grabs himself in a self hugging embrace and squeezes. He throws
back his head and cries out, 'You f______ nazi Moran'. 

Mr.Keren hugs himself harder and harder until he sits down to his rig
to respond to Moran. As he types out his venom he bangs on his
keyboard hard making his whole room shake as if it was being hit by a
earthquake. Bang, bang, bang, he pounds away -

"Well, retard, the paper is indeed from 1941. ..."

"Do you realize that you must be one of the most stupid people
in the world?"

"It's not. Sigh. Look, retard, I am asking you a simple question:
how long can ..."

"Just answer the question, poor old nazi clown."

"Go ahead, nazi moron. We are waiting for your reply."

"Ok, moron, let's focus here." 

"You know, one can almost feel sorry for you. Well, not really."

"Just answer the question, pathetic old man."

"Now answer the question already, you boring, senile fool: ..."

"Why are you refusing to answer this simple question, old fool?"

"No, you senile clown."

"Sigh. tommie, you poor imbecile, try to think, ..."

"So, you're a liar. You misquoted the professor."

"If you would lie like this in court, you would have been
committing perjury. You lied; you didn't tell the truth."

"You lied. You then squealed out a pathetic excuse for
lying, but that still change things; you lied."

"You are a liar."

"I gave this old nazi loon a source ..."

Etc. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:54 EDT 2001
Article: 975241 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Taliban to Bush - Lets see proof and we'll ...
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:57:54 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.15, 2001

Bush Says No to New Taliban Offer for Talks

War: Regime proposes to discuss handing over Bin Laden to a third
country if the U.S. gives attack evidence and halts air strikes.
Powell heads to the region to bolster coalition support.

[ Okay, that's all we need to know for now. 

The fact is the people currently in control of Washington DC haven't
presented any proof. The only thing reported was that they sent an
envoy to the European nations and he delivered a oral presentation and
nothing else. Then it was the tough guy blaring Tony Blair who the
next day delivered a raving speech to Parliament telling them about
what they had. 

The general excuse for not coming up with anything is that if they,
the United States and Britain ("coalition" of two) did they would
jeopardize and compromise intelligence. 

Regardless of whether or not Bin Laden has made some videos that
hammer away at the United States it doesn't say anything about him
being directly involved. The chances are 50/50 he knew about the plan.

Either way we have a sticky problem for the Bush/Blair tag team. Here
they are being challenged to show the proof and offered the turn over
of Bin Laden if they do. 

Of course the Taliban knows that they can't give up Bin Laden to the
United States because the "super power" can't take the risk of a long
and well publicized trial which would inevitably reveal the causes and
effects of things. The Taliban knows that Bin Laden would be
assassinated. 

But then again if corrupt people in the U.S. did assassinate Bin Laden
that would only make things very nasty. A martyr would be born and
everyone would be looking sideways at it. 

What if it came around to where the Taliban announced they would give
up Bin Laden to a third nation regardless of getting any proof? Of
course we would have a lot of crowing about that from the Wicked Witch
and its henchman but the world would stand behind the Taliban. 

As it stands the Taliban has tossed some chips into the poker pot and
has called Bush and Blair on their hand.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:54 EDT 2001
Article: 975245 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The price of submission to the Wicked Witch
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:29:59 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.15, 2001

Defense of the Homeland Comes With Hefty Price Tag

Security: Congress is daunted by the sheer size of the task of
protecting potential targets.

First came nuclear power plants. 

Then, Congress turned its attention to dams, the electricity grid, oil
pipelines, transit lines, drinking water systems, and sewage treatment
plants. 

...

But lawmakers concede that the sheer size of the task leaves them
awe-struck. ...

...

Defense of the homeland could cost $1.5 trillion ...


[ What we have here is as the record shows, that this body of Congress
has caused the whole thing to start with by their bowing to the Wicked
Witch and making 50 years of warfare on Islam on behalf of the Jewish
state of Israel. 

The whole nation is put to the brink. Where will this trillion(s) come
from? Bye, bye Social Security, bye, bye unemployment funds, bye, bye
enviromental funding, bye, bye education, bye, bye everything good,
hello draconian censorship to keep their complicity from being
exposed, hello poverty, hello sickness and unrest. Bye, bye the United
States of America? ] 




From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:56 EDT 2001
Article: 975246 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Medical consequences of political correctness
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:34:22 GMT
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On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:01:26 GMT, Celine Stone
 wrote:

>--
>Don't buy the lie: God does not love everyone.
>God hates homosexuals.  The proof?
>
>Psalm 5:5
>"God hates all workers of iniquity" (ie fags)
>
>Please check out - http://www.godhatesfags.com - for more
>biblical wisdom


Maybe you have a point with the gist but then again the Bible can be a
cause for submitting to the politically and socially correct.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:56 EDT 2001
Article: 975248 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One picture destroys thousands of words
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:42:34 GMT
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When it comes to the popular saying, "A picture is worth a thousand
words" the tens of thousands of Holocaust words are made worthless by
pictures. 

Check out the website of the 'The Holocaust History Project' -
http://www.holocaust-history.org/links/

Check out 'Holocaust Links' - No.23

"Holocaust-info-dk http://holocaust-info.dk/ 

An excellent resource site in Danish and English compiled by Holocaust
History Project volunteer Mikkel Andersson, which focuses on the
extermination camps, including pictures of the current conditions of
the camps, and deportation statistics." 


Check out this map at -
http://holocaust-info.dk/operation_reinhard/imgs_belzec/map.htm

This is what was supposed to have been at the location identified as
the Belzec extermination camp

"Camp I - Reception and Administration Area
Entrance gate 
Guard's house 
Ukranian living quarters 
Barber, clinic, dentist for the SS and Ukrainian 
Ukrainian kitchen 
Railway ramp 
Garage 
Tailor's and shoemaker's workshop for the SS and Ukrainians 
Living quarters for Jewish prisoners 
Kitchen and laundry for Jewish prisoners 
Storeroom for belongings taken from victims 
Gallows 
Undressing barracks 
Room in which women's hair was cut 
A courtyard enclosed by a wooden fence leading to the "tube"  Camp II
- Extermination Area
Gas chambers 
Gas engine 
Burial pits 
Anti-tank trench used as a burial pit. 
Shelves for cremating the bodies 
Living quarters for Jewish prisoners 
Kitchen for Jewish prisoners 
Outside the camp

The SS living quarters and offices 
Warehouses for the belongings taken from the victims - former
locomotive"

           
[[[ Now check out the aerial recon photo of the place Belzec taken in
1944, less than a year after the all the above is said to have been
there. Notice no signs of any of it. 

http://www.codoh.com/found/fndaerial.html ]]]	

 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:56 EDT 2001
Article: 975249 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust chimney icon exposed
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:43:43 GMT
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One of the most notable icons of the Holocaust story would be
Auschwitz crematorium chimneys belching smoke and flames. The tales
can have the smoke so thick it would darken the whole area or flames
so big that they would turn the sky red. Exemplifying the importance
of smoke and flame spewing chimneys there is even a Holocaust book
called, 'Five Chimneys'. 

Almost all the tales focus on Crema II but by extension would include
Crema III since it was a mirror image of Crema II.

The primary reason for such chimneys would be for venting the actual
fire boxes that generated the heat to the cremation chambers.

1. When coke or coal fires are established they give off very little
smoke and do not flame up like say a log fire, existing only as a bed
of red hot embers and some low sporadic flaming.

2. In order for flames to make it all the way to the top of the
chimneys they would have to have gone through a distance of ducts said
to have run between the fire boxes at the cremation ovens and the
chimney. The distances from fire box to the top of the chimney could
be 70 to 90 feet according to plans of the Cremas II and III. Any
where from 20 to 40 feet of the ducts which are shown to have been 2
foot by 2 1/2 feet would be running horizontally below the concrete
floors. Thus trying to imagine flames enduring as flames under the
circumstances is something that defies common sense. Any flames of
such magnitude capable of enduring as flames over the distances would
have to have originated from some enormous source. Even if there was a
source capable of generating such an awesome inferno it would subject
any duct system to such intense heat that the whole thing would
disintegrate not to mention the stress on the lining of the chimney
itself.

According to eyewitnesses, "survivors" and/or SS confessions, we have
flames shooting out of the tops of the chimneys yet according to the
dimensions and specifications of the cremation fire boxes and the
plans of the mentioned duct system it would all be, for all practical
definitions, impossible.

Making the tales even more ridiculous is the fact that the tales tend
to lead us to believe all the smoke and flames originated from the
bodies burning in the cremation chambers.  

Holocaust testimonies are one thing, reality another.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:57 EDT 2001
Article: 975250 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Allied aerial photos destroy the lie
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:44:37 GMT
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There are about 5 aerial reconnaissance photos of Birkenau all
taken by the Allies at a time when the Holocaust 'facts' have it the
camp was engaged in the maximum extermination process. 

Poetically, the photos, held by the CIA since the end of World
War II, fifty years ago, were not released until around 1979 in the
form  of a report, "The Holocaust Revisited" with the photos having
been obviously retouched. The tamperings include penciled in
introduction ports which Holocaust 'facts' have at about 1 x 1 foot
wide and 3 feet high and penciled in formations of prisoners.
Ironically and with poetic justice, since the CIA held photos have
markings said to represent 1 x 1 x 3 foot components on the ground we
get an idea of what other features should be showing up in the photos.

	What the photos should show according to Holocaust 'facts'.
       ===========================================================

Considerable piles of coal by each building alleged to have
been a crematorium. Each building needing 100 tons a day. 

Piles of cinders left over from the 100 tons per building each
day. 	

Smoke and flames shooting out of the chimneys.

People lined up.

Cadre and Sondercommandos (prisoner workers) around.

Piles of dead bodies piled out side awaiting cremation because
the inside is already filled up with bodies awaiting cremation.

Piles of charred carcasses piled outside.

Crushing machines to further reduce the charred carcasses.

Trucks backed in.

Vehicle tracks.

	-------------------------------------------------------------

Those are the 'facts' that should be evident in the
photographs according to the Holocaust authoritarian claims and the
tamperings of the photos in a CIA report. 
	
What is the probability that at least some of these things
should be manifest obvious in the photos? The Holocaust 'facts' have
it that there were four death facilities operating at Birkenau. The
CIA report tries to make a case that extermination processes were
taking place the days of the photos, thus we can see the above listed
Holocaust facts should have been evident also. 

Take 5 (photos), times 4 (buildings) = 20 images all together
of the alleged individual facilities. 

The 20 images times the 10 (component 'facts') listed = 200
possible opportunities for photographic confirmation that Holocaust
'facts' are true.

The reality. Photographic confirmation out of 200
possibilities = 0 confirmations. 	

The photos show none of it.

Thus, the total absence of proof where we should strongly
expect some, amassed (taken) during the period of most likelihood,
according to Holocaust 'facts', pretty well gives sufficient and
substantial cause for doubting any of the claims made about Birkenau.

And, by extension, we would be justified in doubting all other
tales about the other camps and thus the whole ugly story in general.





From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:57 EDT 2001
Article: 975251 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The big lie - how it's told - revisionist summary
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:46:27 GMT
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          ==============================================



	Even if ten thousand museums, ten thousand "survivor"
eyewitness testimonies, ten thousand TV documentaries, ten thousand
Hollywood movies and ten thousand newspaper and magazine articles
cannot make a lie a truth.

Holocaust evidence

	Most persons might think that the Holocaust story is founded
on solid, rock hard evidence. Something like we might expect to find
established at a murder trial in a court of law. An investigation of
the scene of the crime, a forensic study of any physically related
factor, a murder weapon, a body. For the Holocaust story, one that
claims 12,000,000 murder victims, all that is borderline none
existent. 

Ninety nine percent (99%) of Holocaust evidence is based on
  ex-prisoner "survivor" accounts and SS confessions.

	Forensic investigations of allegedly known scenes of the
crime, bodies or remains of bodies and scientific feasibility studies
not necessary to document an extermination of 12,000,000 persons.

	All it takes to make a Holocaust 'fact' for something so epic
as say an alleged vast spinning industry at an "extermination" camp in
Poland that used hair from gassed victims and was even bigger than all
the production in Germany would be one sentence in one lone
confession. Not one single product from hair, no orders for any
machinery, no shipping records of any kind, no corroborating
testimony, nothing except the one sentence by one lone source is
automatically put forth as an epic Holocaust fact. Another example of
a Holocaust fact would be a one paragraph statement by one lone former
prisoner saying 18,000 Jews were shot all in one day and buried in the
ground. Nothing else is needed. Even though the prisoner declaration
gives exactly where all the bodies were buried then dug up, cremated
and reburied no forensic excavation was ever performed, the witness
was never asked to show the scene of the crime, only words on a piece
of paper with a name attached makes for a huge Holocaust fact that
18,000 people were shot.

 	As for the essence of Holocaust evidence consider these
extracted introductions from the - 'Central Commission For
Investigation Of German Crimes In Poland'  1946

Chelmno - 300,000 Jews were allegedly exterminated: 
	"The extermination camp at Chelmno was a typical death camp,
i.e. a place designed exclusively for killing all who were brought
there . . . only a very few people in Poland ever knew of its
existence and the hundreds of thousands of its victims.
	According to the evidence of three witnesses who succeeded in
escaping from the camp of Chelmno), as well as that of Polish
witnesses drawn from the population of the neighborhood who had seen
records, . . . the following preparatory phases in the process of mass
extermination can be distinguished."

Treblinka - where from 700,000 to 2,000,000 Jews were allegedly
exterminated:
	"The evidence on which this account relies is in the first
place the testimony of 13 Jews,  former prisoners at Treblinka, who
succeeded in escaping during the armed revolt of August 2, 1943. Their
names are: . . ."

	As an example of how contradictory Holocaust accounts can be
we have these night and day tales -
  
The extermination camp Treblinka was still in operation when the
Russians took over. 
	"When the Russians took over the Treblinka complex and the
nearly dead survivors had recovered sufficiently to communicate, the
tales that they poured out were not limited to the horrors they had
endured." 

The extermination camp Treblinka was destroyed before the Russians
took over.
	"After the uprising, on August 18 and 19, 1943, another two
transports slated for extermination arrived in Treblinka, bringing
Jews from Bialystok. Shortly afterward the Germans destroyed the gas
chambers and the other installations that remained after the revolt,
and with that put an end to the camp. . . . In order to cover up the
crime, a farm-house was built on the site of the camp, trees were
planted, and a Ukrainian peasant was employed to guard the deserted
place."
 
	The first account goes on to tell the reader that all sorts of
material evidence was found, including records, people in cattle cars
and instruments of death and torture. The source for that account
would be from one of a number of initial Soviet reports put out just
after the war, some even before the war was over and only days after
they took over some camps. Because the reports made claims with such
reckless disregard they created the probability that the world might
come to ask in the future, 'Show us'. Hence, the story had to be
changed into the second account so there would be no need to produce
proof of anything claimed in the first. As we can see, the second
account tells us the place was totally dismantled and covered over
which would explain why there would be no physical evidence.

	Much of the Holocaust evidence presented in books now days is
based on 'survivor' testimony and SS confessions devised years, even
decades after the war. The whole evolution of the ever changing
Holocaust accounts is a process of damage control.

	For an ideal phrase to describe the methodology of Holocaust
documentation we have - deus ex machina  
Random House Dictionary:
1."a god who resolves the entanglements of the play by his super
natural forces".
2."an artificial, forced or improbable device used to resolve the
difficulties of a plot".

Survivors

	All it takes to be a "survivor" is to have been a Jew living
in the war zone. A survivor need not have spent any time in any kind
of camp. The number of alleged "survivors" can range up to 800,000.
Currently a project funded by U.S. tax dollars is engaged in amassing
the tales of 50,000 "survivors" to stand as further proof of a
Holocaust reality. None of these 'witnesses' will ever be subjected to
outside questioning by doubtful parties to see if they are telling
truths or lies. 

Revising an improbable plot too obviously improbable

	At one time a plaque outside the Auschwitz compound in Poland
said 4,000,000 persons had died at the camp. Now the plaque says
1,000,000. The new figures are said to have been sought after starting
in 1979 and arrived at in 1985, yet the official announcement wasn't
made until 1993, giving Holocaust propagandists time to pen new
accounts so the number would still be 6,000,000 Jews. We can recognize
if the 3 million has been subtracted from the original 4 million then
that 3 million never were in the first place.
	The reason the number had to be reduced is because trying to
maintain the 4,000,000 number was too stressful under the rising tide
of inquiring minds. While current claims are still way out there the
4,000,000 number so sorely stressed accounting for cremation rates,
fuel consumption, chamber capacities, transportation etc. it had to be
lowered. Like throwing cargo off a ship to keep it from sinking or
taking some straw off the camel's back.

Too much real documentation forces a rewrite
 
	Up until about the middle of the 1950s concentration camps
located on German soil were the focus of mass extermination
propaganda. Such places as Buchenwald, Dachau, Mathausen and Bergen
Belsen were documented as the primary centers where hundreds of
thousands unto millions of Jews were gassed. Then came 1960 when it
was quietly announced unchallenged that there were no gassings carried
out at any camps located on German soil and thus with the deletion of
that myth so went the hundreds of thousands unto millions of victims
into the realms of never were and so too at the same time was the
tacit admittance all the documented evidence was a lie.
	The infamous photos of piles of emaciated bodies so widely
published were taken at these camps and presented to the public in
context with statements and inferences that they were the victims of
gassings and intentional starvation. The reality is they were the
victims of the total break down of German capacity to supply the camps
with the vital needs that they had so diligently done for years before
the last few months of the war. Most of the prisoners that died did so
after the Allies took over.
	As the Russians and Allies closed in on Germany that nation
came under continuous devastating attack by aerial saturation bombing.
All one has to do is look at war-time photographs of places like
Dresden and Hamburg to see how utterly incapacitated the nation was. 
	The reason why the above camps had to be deleted from the
extermination story is because they were liberated by the Allies that
were open to allowing journalistic visitation with hundreds of
photographs taken and thus resulting in documentation that could not
be credibly used to sustain allegations of mass extermination. In fact
serious doubts had been openly expressed right from the start which
eventually culminated with the retreat in 1960. On the other hand, the
camps in Poland were taken by the Soviets that would not allow anyone,
including the Allies into the areas and it is those camps that the
story is focused on now.  Like the appearance of the telescope might
belay rumors the moon is made of cheese by viewing the bright side,
the rumor shifts to the cheese being on the dark side.

Too much improbable requires renaming the script

	A German "Master Plan" for extermination was at one time the
popular major phrase used in Holocaust literature. The Holocaust was
the result of a well thought out intentional premeditated Master Plan.
During the last decade the traditional propagandists have been backing
away en masse from the once popular phrase having to now resort to
proposing elaborate schemes to explain how it all came about. The
reason would be because of the rising retrospect study and challenges
by doubtful researchers. Because the story is like a stew cooked by
multiple chefs that didn't know exactly what each other was adding we
end up with a stew with no logical recipe. Every aspect of the story,
every single detail the sole result of individual fantasies pieced
together. 

Not just 6,000,000 but 12,000,000

	Exemplifying the blatant nature of  Holocaust propagandists is
their claiming there were 6 million non-Jews also exterminated. This
would not take into account any of the military loses. Evidently this
is to take the edge off the obvious nature that the Holocaust story is
basically a Jewish story and to show there is some concern for
non-Jews.
	Even though there may be hundreds of books that tell us about
Jewish loses there is not one single book giving us the details about
this other 6 million. 
	The only thing that the public is given is the wording in any
particular sentence that claims the additional number. One sentence
here and there makes for a Holocaust fact that 6,000,000 were
exterminated.

Camp locations - on Main Street

	As an extension of their answer to question No.12 under
Responses to Revisionist Arguments, "Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself
state that there were no extermination camps in Germany?" the Website
of the Simon Wiesenthal Museum of Tolerance will tell us that all the
"extermination" camps were located in Poland because of the
"remoteness of Poland's rural areas". In actuality all but one were
located right in the area of Polish civilian populations. The mother
of them all, Auschwitz, was located right among a number of Polish
villages including a town of 20,000. Majdanek was situated just
outside of Lublin a major Polish city right on the outskirts of the
suburbs and only a couple of hundred yards away from a Polish
neighborhood. Another camp is identified as having existed just
outside of a town and located on the side of a hill that rose 120 feet
above the countryside like a reverse amphitheater with Polish houses
and commercial facilities right at the bottom. The mass grave where
600,000 are said to have been buried, dug up, cremated and reburied
was at the very top, the fires raging there at the top for months on
end.

The gas, or more correctly "gas"

	Most people might have the idea that the "gas" used to
exterminate Jews was some special lethal agent chosen by central
planning, packaged and shipped to the camps for exterminations. Two
basic agents for mass exterminations are identified in Holocaust
literature.  One is carbon monoxide (CO) and the other is hydrogen
cyanide (HCN). The CO is said to have been introduced as fumes from
the exhausts of  various engines captured from the Soviets. According
to different testimonies, confessions whatever, the engines were from
captured tanks, trucks, cars and/or even submarine and airplane
engines. Poetically almost all the tales specify the engines as
Diesel. Whereas gasoline engines produce high amounts of CO, Diesel
engines produce very low amounts. There are no case histories of
persons being overcome with Diesel fumes whereas those about gasoline
engines are legion. The story specifying Diesel fumes over gasoline is
like saying the bow and arrow is more effective than a gun.
	The other agent is HCN said to have been derived from
fumigation pellets that were used extensively throughout the European
war theatre as a front line defense against typhus carrying lice. The
Allies used DDT. The pellets were a commercial product known as Zyklon
B designed to release the poisonous agent slowly over a period of
hours. Sort of like powerful moth balls. Typical Holocaust tales say
people in gas chambers would succumb in 5 to 15 minutes which means
most of the HCN agent would still have been in the pellets after the
alleged gassings.  Typhus was a major problem in the camps and
propagandists have to acknowledge that many fumigation facilities were
at the camps for that reason, which would be why the stuff Zyklon B
was there in the first place. 
	The story of the first use of  the fumigation pellets was
given by a one time commandant of Auschwitz, Rudolph Ho'ss, who said
he had gone away on a trip to return and find out that his second in
command (killed during the war and not around to corroborate) had
taken it on his own to try it out on some Soviet POWs and he, Ho'ss,
subsequently took to using it as the agent of mass extermination at
that camp. With this tale of personal initiatives, with no accounting
of orders coming from any high command we have a good example of how
the story developed by way of testimonies and in such a haphazard way.
Going by that, the infamous "gas" (fumigation pellets) came to be used
just because they happened to be laying around.

Gas chambers

	For the identification and description of gas chambers there
are two basic modes. For such places as Majdanek and Auschwitz, which
were really camps, actual buildings that existed are identified as
having been the installations of mass extermination. For other places
as Treblinka, Belzek and Sobibor where 1944 aerial reconnaissance
photos show absolutely no traces of anything ever having been there
descriptions of gas chambers are exclusively founded on tales from
alleged former prisoners or SS confessions.
	At Auschwitz there were five installations identified as
having been Crematorium, buildings with a combined capacity to gas and
cremate. A number of photographs are in existence which show the
buildings as they were, complete with photos as they were being
constructed, all taken by the Germans themselves. Only scant traces of
these buildings are in existence today. Holocaust propaganda founded
on eyewitness accounts will tell us the Germans destroyed the
installations in order to cover up the crime yet a number of aerial
photo reconnaissance shots taken by the Allies indicates the Soviets
were the ones that finished off the buildings after they took over. 
	For the gas chambers at the other places descriptions are
totally dependent on tales resulting in a pot pourri of discordant
accounts. Just for one camp we can have 2, 6 or 10 chambers, chambers
with one door or two, floors that are sloped or floors that are not,
chambers that could hold 800 or 300, chambers on wheels and other
imaginations.
	Accounts of gas chamber dimensions and the number of victims
in each load can have two or three people per square foot. 
 
Mass Graves

	Most people might have the idea that all the Holocaust victims
were gassed and then directly cremated. For the most part this is not
the case. We are told the Germans first buried millions of victims and
then realized they better dig them up and cremate them. The story is
saturated with tales of mass graves, the 'witnesses' giving exact or
reasonably exact locations where they were either by verbal
description or by maps drawn. Anywhere from a few thousand to hundreds
of thousands of bodies in each one yet not one single 'eyewitness' was
ever asked to 'Show us the scene of the crime'. Whether or not the
bodies were left in the graves or exhumed, cremated and then reburied
there would be, and still would be, sufficient evidence to show it was
all true but no forensic excavations were ever ordered by any
Tribunal, court or whatever and thus none ever undertaken.  Taking
into account the numbers of bodies said to have been buried in a
specified area the mathematical conclusion defies the laws of nature. 

Cremations    
	 
	Along with gas chambers, the cremation of bodies is the utmost
foremost highlight of the Holocaust story.
	Without a doubt the only thing the general public ever hears
or sees about this cremation aspect is that the bodies were cremated
in ovens whereas research into the details of the story reveals that
80% of the bodies are said to have been cremated with wood in pits or
over grates made of railroad tracks. Going by the dimensions and
descriptions for cremating bodies over rail tracks the mathematics
result in exposing the story as telling us they could cremate one body
with a piece of wood the size of a shoe box.
	Whereas present day cremation technology requires 2 to 3 hours
to cremate one body a Holocaust oven could reduce 4 bodies in 10
minutes.

	Many Holocaust 'facts' are totally contrary to the laws of
physics. Either the tales are true and the laws of physics are false
or the laws of physics are true and the 'facts' are impossible.  

	 Selecting a theoretical ridiculously low amount of wood to
cremate one body, say the equivalent of a solid piece 2 x 2 x 2 feet,
times the 80% claimed to have been cremated with the fuel, we end up
with 36 million cubic feet of wood necessary. This would be equal to a
pile of 30 foot tree trunks 2 feet across piled up 20 feet high and 20
feet across by 5 miles long. Or, a volume of wood exceeding the volume
of the Empire State Building.

	 Where we don't have definitive figures that we can use to
show Holocaust 'facts' are contrary to the laws of  physics we  have
the results of  theoretical considerations that insult our common
senses. 

	 Even though the undertaking to acquire and deliver the fuel
would have been immense the Holocaust story has but two or three
scattered 'eyewitness' sentences that mention anything about it.
 
Holocaust Numerology 

	In a way the Holocaust story is a story of numbers. Aside from
the huge reduction of Auschwitz figures many other numbers that were
first around in the early stages have been toyed with in attempts to
make the improbable less improbable. We can have for one camp numbers
ranging from 80,000 to 1,500,000 and for another we can have 700,000,
800,000, 900,000 or 2,000,000. Another can be 300,000 or twice that at
600,000.
	The number of victims from various countries can range from
say 70,000 to 700,000 for France or 350,000 to 900,000 for Hungary. 
	 For gas chamber capacities at one camp it could be 200, 700
or 3000. The number of bodies that could be cremated in ovens per day
could be 2,000 or 10,000. Regardless of the mass reductions of numbers
for Auschwitz, the total deletion of  the hundreds of thousands once
claimed for camps on German soil and the wide variety of figures for
other camps the  6,000,000 number always stays the same.
	
Evil beyond contempt

	The Katyn Forest is an area in Poland were the Soviets had
massacred thousands of Polish cadre. When the Germans wrested control
>from the Soviets they were informed of thousands being driven out to
the forest never to be seen again. The Germans located the mass graves
and did a forensic archeological investigation. 
At the Nuremberg trials where the Soviets sat as prosecutors and
judges themselves they introduced the massacre as a German crime and
the Allied members allowed it even though they knew who really did it,
which tells us something ugly about the nature of the trials. Super
exemplifying the basic mode of Holocaust evidence, the Soviets
submitted a report hundreds of pages long totally founded on
"eyewitness" accounts. The reality eventually surfaced in the form of
an extant German report, complete with photographs of the excavation
as it was happening along with foreign forensic experts and
journalists invited and Allied POW officers brought in to witness the
scene, all photographed at the scene. 
With the advent of Glasnost the Soviets eventually came to admit to
the crime.

	The German report stands ironically and poetically as the only
real documented forensic investigation ever performed on any mass
grave stemming from the WW II era.

Nuremberg Tribunal

	The incident of the Katyn Forest being introduced to the
Nuremberg Tribunal stands as monolithic evidence that the trials were
a farce. In addition to that one grand indictment the determinations
of the Tribunal also included finding the defendants guilty of mass
extermination at camps in Germany, since erased from the story, and
the 4,000,000 number for Auschwitz currently 1,000,000. Inquiring
minds have gone over the records of the trials and the case for a
kangaroo court is outstanding. 

	"The Nuremberg Trials had been popular throughout the world
and particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the
sentence already announced by the high tribunal; death. It was the
foundation of the American system of law and justice and [Robert Taft]
was repelled by the picture of a his country discarding those
Constitutional precepts in order to punish a vanquished enemy."

John F. Kennedy - Profiles in Courage

"Courage", the ability to recognize an iniquitous thing and take
action against it.




From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:57 EDT 2001
Article: 975330 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WTC - Planes only  "Diversionary explosions"
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:45:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Expert Now Thinks No Explosives in Towers

Published on September 22, 2001, 

John Fleck Journal Staff Writer

A New Mexico explosives expert says he now believes that there were no
explosives in the World Trade Center towers, contrary to comments he
made the day of the Sept. 11 terrorist attack. "Certainly, the fire is
what caused the building to fail," said Van Romero, a vice president
at the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology. The day of the
attack, Romero told the Journal that the towers' collapse, as seen in
news videotapes, looked as though it had (Albuquerque Journal (NM),
306 words. ) 




From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:58 EDT 2001
Article: 975356 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:37:09 GMT
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On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:00:31 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>strut  writes:
>
># It makes my mind shake when you kill millions of people
># in an area and can't find any remains.

Keren tries:
>Numerous remains were find in Belzec, Treblinka, and Auschwitz.

[ Nope, no remains were found. Only phony reports that says remains
were found. Like the recent findings said to have been found at Belzec
where they say they found the remains of tens of thousands of bodies
that hadn't been cremated. That was two years ago and nothing else
except some Michael Tregenza saying so. The only thing for Auschwitz?
Some "Hydrokop Report" which there is nothing on the Holocaust
propaganda circuit but one paragraph saying there was a study.

>Aren't these baby-nazis given some pointers before being sent
>to post here?

[ Try to be nice Mr.Keren. Why are so uptight? What's the problem?



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:58 EDT 2001
Article: 975375 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: One picture destroys thousands of words
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 23:24:15 GMT
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Moran said:
># Now check out the aerial recon photo of the place Belzec taken in
># 1944, less than a year after the all the above is said to have been
># there. Notice no signs of any of it. 

Mr.Keren says:
>Since the SS dismantled it. I assume tommie is going to claim
>that this was "physically impossible".


You say you "assume"? Interesting.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:59 EDT 2001
Article: 975389 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust chimney icon exposed
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 00:29:27 GMT
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Moran had said among other things:
># When coke or coal fires are established they give off very
># little smoke and do not flame up like say a log fire,
># existing only as a bed of red hot embers and some low 
># sporadic flaming.

Mr.Keren tries out:
>Problem is that the Krema photos show the chimneys darkened
>with soot:
>
>http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/k2-chimney.gif
>
>(note that this photo was taken before the Krema was
>operational, and the furnaces were run only for testing
>and drying. Yet, there is soot on the chimney's top).

It doesn't take a lot of smoke to make some deposits on a chimney. In
fact fumes with little noticeable particulate matter will make
deposits.

Mr.Keren tries this one:
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/auschwitz/images/k4-photo.jpg

There we see some limited deposits which doesn't even remotely prove
that the chimneys had billowed smoke to any great extent.

Western Allied aerial photos taken during the highest time that the
alleged exterminations were supposed to have been happening don't show
any billowing smoke or any smoke at all even though they were taken on
a number of different days and there would be four chimneys involved.
Four chimneys, five different days of aerial shots and no smoke.

Moran had also said among other things:
># Any flames of such magnitude capable of enduring as flames 
># over the distances would have to have originated from some
># enormous source. Even if there was a source capable of
># generating such an awesome inferno it would subject any 
># duct system to such intense heat that the whole thing would
># disintegrate not to mention the stress on the lining of 
># the chimney itself.

Mr.Keren tries:
>But the reports of the building department do mention the
>chmineys being seriously damaged from the heat.
>
>tommie, you poor little zero.

It shows that whenever the Germans had a typhus epidemic or something
that would require over working the cremation facilities they would
break down. That would show they didn't build the facilities for
disposing of bodies from any mass extermination. Not to mention that
planning on disposing of hundreds of thousands by way of little ovens
would have been a totally nitwit thing.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:59 EDT 2001
Article: 975427 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 02:23:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran had said:
>[ Nope, no remains were found. Only phony reports that says remains
>> were found. 

Daffer replies:
>  You can't prove this statement. 


You're right. Only those that profess the reports and argue their
credibility can prove them. Now if someone professes something and
they don't support it with any proof then that may be taken as proof
they don't exist. Especially if someone calls on the professor to
prove any findings. Whadda got?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:59 EDT 2001
Article: 975563 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust chimney icon exposed
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:08:17 GMT
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Moran had said:
># Western Allied aerial photos taken during the highest time
># that the alleged exterminations were supposed to have been
># happening don't show any billowing smoke or any smoke at 
># all even though they were taken on a number of different 
># days and there would be four chimneys involved. 

Mr.Keren tries out:
>A very small number of photos were taken, some after the
>kremas were already dismanteled. One Allied photo and
>one German photo (taken on different days) do show a 
>large plum of smoke rising exactly from the location in
>which many witnesses testified that open-air corpse burning 
>took place - slightly to the north of Krema V.

Mr.Keren says "a very small" number of photos were taken. Not
bothering to make any announcements about any number being small or
big there were some 4 or 5 taken during the time the story tells us
the mass exterminations were at the highest. 

Does the record show that we are supposed to be talking about the
alleged billowing smoke from chimneys? Yes. How is Mr.Keren refers to
something about smoke from "open air corpse burning"?  Mr.Keren?

As to the oven system breaking down Moran said:
># It shows that whenever the Germans had a typhus epidemic
># or something that would require over working the cremation 
># facilities they would break down. That would show they didn't
># build the facilities for disposing of bodies from any mass 
># extermination. Not to mention that planning on disposing of
># hundreds of thousands by way of little ovens would have been
># a totally nitwit thing.

Mr.Keren tries out:
>A bit of arithmetic, made simple enough that perhaps even
>tommie will be able to understand it:
>
>1) The tiny Gusen krema, with its two muffles, could burn
>   94 corpses in 20 hours, according to the cremation sheets
>   from Nov. 1941.

Ovens were constantly breaking down which shows that they weren't
intended in design to handle mass cremation and shows that the Germans
didn't have the technology to build facilities for mass cremation.

>2) In 1942-3, the SS built in Birkenau four kremas with 46
>   muffles.

Forty six ovens for contingencies of typhus epidemics which the
Germans had experienced at other camps and including Auschwitz itself.
None of them were built for mass cremations on a continuous basis.
Most would stand idol until the need arose.

>3) Even these 46 muffles didn't suffice; the furnaces were
>   overworked and damaged, and the SS had to resort at times
>   to large-scale open-air burning.

There was no "large-scale open-air burning". Since the topic is the
alleged smoke billowing chimneys Moran is going to over look Mr.Kerens
trying to lead the discussion away from that. It'll arise at another
time on down the road. 

>4) The labor deployment reports for 1944 show hundreds - up
>   to 900 - stokers employed in Birkenau.

There are no "reports" plural. Only one. It didn't appear until the
last few years. The report is a daily labor manifest that was to list
various chores at the Birkenau camp. Someone(s) found them and took
one and forged a copy to include the "900 - stokers".  Since the camp
was in operation for two years or more, over 700 days we should expect
more documents than just one. This document forgery could be the
direct result of Mr.Keren's involvement since he seems to be the only
one that has contact with some party in Germany who says he found it
in archives and Mr.Keren seems to be the only one that usually refers
to it. Who found it? When was it found? How was it found and where are
the other hundreds of daily work sheets that should be in existence
out of some 700 or more?   

>These are the facts. Unfortunately, they contradict tommie's
>axioms. 

There are no "facts" of the Holocaust story. Only lies. As to those
claims by Mr.Keren, keep an eye on the group and those topics will
show up. For now we can resist any extended discussion on them since
Mr.Keren is trying to lead the discussion off and away from the topic,
which is the alleged smoke billowing chimneys.

 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:02:59 EDT 2001
Article: 975564 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Report all "anti-Semitic" activities
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:14:22 GMT
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JTA | News ar a Glance | October 15, 2001 7:42:00 PM ET


The Israeli government and the Jewish Agency for Israel inaugurated a
Web site to monitor anti-Semitic incidents around the world. An
interactive feature on the site allows users to report incidents they
experienced or witnessed. The site, available in English and Hebrew,
is located at www.antisemitism.org.il.


For anyone that doesn't know what a "anti-Semitic incident" is here
are a few examples -

Finding any kind of fault with the Jewish state of Israel.

Like expressing disgust at the Jewish state slaughtering little
Palestinian kids.

Like the Jews bull dozing the kids homes.

Like Jews destroying Palestinian agricultural means.

Like Jews invading Lebanon.

Making a point about Jewish over representation in U.S. and world
media.

Anything directed against Jews that would match up to whatever they
say about others, including Catholics, Germans, Arabs, Muslims etc.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:03:00 EDT 2001
Article: 975566 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:19:48 GMT
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Moran had said:
>[ Nope, no remains were found. Only phony reports that says remains
>were found. 

Daffer replied:
>>  You can't prove this statement. 

Moran knowing that Daffer wouldn't have anything said:
>You're right. Only those that profess the reports and argue their
>credibility can prove them. Now if someone professes something and
>they don't support it with any proof then that may be taken as proof
>they don't exist. Especially if someone calls on the professor to
>prove any findings. Whadda got?

Daffer returns to show he had nothing:
>That's all we need to know.
>
>  You made a statement of fact which you now admit was unwarrented.
>
>whd
>-- 
>David E. Michael comments on the attacks of Sept 11, 2001, where
>Islamic fundamentalists hijacked 4 airlines and crashed them, complete
>with crew and passengers, two into the two World Trade Center's and
>one into the Pentagon, the fourth crashing after the passengers had
>been informed of their fate and decided to risk death to save innocent
>civilisans. These four attacks had a combined death toll of over 6000
>civilians. He writes, approvingly:
>
>
>"It was not a terrorist attack. It was an extremely well-targeted military
>operation in which there were unfortunate civilian casualties. And if that
>operation makes the American government think twice about sponsoring murder
>and oppression overseas then it may indeed save lives in the long run."
>
>
>David E. Michael's idea of a 'military operation.' With such
>casuistry, can anyone doubt the truth that he is a moral cretin.
>



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:03:00 EDT 2001
Article: 975568 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jews for national ID cards
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:41:36 GMT
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On Oct.13, 2001 the ugly little furry creature Alan Dershowitz had an
editorial in the New York Times - "Why Fear National ID Cards?"

Today, Oct.16, 2001 we got a number of letters to the editor about the
editorial. Two were from Israel telling us how its all a good thing.
Stinking New York Times. How is it they had 2 out of 4 letters from
Jews in Israel? 


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:03:01 EDT 2001
Article: 975569 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Coming up - Bin Laden behind Anthrax attacks
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:41:43 GMT
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New York Times, Oct.16, 2001

"In Shift, Officials Look Into Possibility Anthrax Cases Have bin
Laden ties"

This should be very interesting. What will we be getting in way of the
"ties"?  

Here's an example that we got from the Los Angeles Times, Oct.15.

"Editor's Wife Found Rental for 2 Suspected in Hijackings"

Several months before a tabloid employee died from anthrax, the wife
of the publication's editor helped two of the suspected hijackers in
the Sept.11 attacks find an apartment, according to media reports. ...



From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:03:01 EDT 2001
Article: 975573 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust chimney icon exposed
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:53:56 GMT
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Moran said:
>>Forty six ovens for contingencies of typhus epidemics which the
>>Germans had experienced at other camps and including Auschwitz itself.
>>None of them were built for mass cremations on a continuous basis.
>>Most would stand idol until the need arose.

Mathews tries:
>And what is your evidence they were built for contingencies of typhus 
>epidemics? How many typhus deaths were experienced at Auschwitz, or other 
>camps?

There were typhus epidemics which took high tolls. What proof is there
that typhus epidemics were rampant? After the Western Allied took over
the concentration camps in Germany and Austria thousands died. U.S.
files would verify the epidemics.

Mathews:
>The deniers Mattogno and Butz even admit that the crematoria of Birkenau 
>could 
>incinerate 30,000 corpses in a month. Do you have any evidence that typhus 
>deaths in any camp approached this number, ever.

30,000 divided by 30 days = 1000 a day. 1000 divided by 46 = 21 per
oven. One body every hour or so per oven. What's the problem? Who says
any typhus epidemics had to result in 1000 a day? Who said the ovens
would have been built to accommodate that many? 

Mathews:
>And remember Tommy:

>"Now if someone professes something and they don't support it with any proof 
>then that may be taken as proof they don't exist."
>
>(snip)

Holocaust facts have it that up to 10,000 a day could be cremated in
the ovens. Do you have any proof this was the case?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:03:01 EDT 2001
Article: 975582 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Medical consequences of political correctness
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:18:06 GMT
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On 16 Oct 2001 06:25:25 -0700, jerome29@hotmail.com (Jerome Gregory)
wrote:

>Ms Stone is spot on.  Her well-researched post articulates precisely
>why we should not yield to political correctness, especially when
>the repercussions on the public health system are enormous.

For the most part AIDS is avoidable. Billions have been spent on it at
the expense of other diseases. We have it all egged on by the socially
and politically correct parades and benefits with everything else
shunted to the rear. We have socially and politically correct diseases
that deserve attention and those that don't.

Homosexuality is almost touted as more politically and socially
correct than heterosexuality. This only tends to egg on more activity.
The same goes for sex in general. We have epidemics of unwed mothers
yet at the same time we have Hollywood and such pushing it to the
heights.

Sex is probably the strongest impulse in humanity and it should be
addressed carefully.


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:03:02 EDT 2001
Article: 975587 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust chimney icon exposed
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 15:24:12 GMT
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Mathews says quoting "Tommy":
>>>And remember Tommy:
>>
>>>"Now if someone professes something and they don't support it with any proof
>>>then that may be taken as proof they don't exist."
>>>
>>>(snip)

>>Holocaust facts have it that up to 10,000 a day could be cremated in
>>the ovens. Do you have any proof this was the case?

>Trying to change the subject Tommy?

>We await evidence for your assertions. And remember:

>"Now if someone professes something and they don't support it with any proof
>then that may be taken as proof they don't exist."


Mathews, do you have any proof that "Tommy" changed the subject?


From trm@pacificnet.net Tue Oct 16 21:03:02 EDT 2001
Article: 975697 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: tommie moran loses its sanity (Re: Holocaust chimney icon exposed)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:15:16 GMT
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Moran said:
># There are no "reports" plural.  

Mr.Keren says:
>Liar. There are dozens of them, as I have told tommie quite a few
>times.

Mr.Keren says there are dozens? That would be out of some 700?

Moran:
># It didn't appear until the last few years. 

Mr.Keren:
>More utter garbage. The reports are mentioned in books such as
>Gilbert's "The Holocaust" and Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicles".

Should we take Mr.Keren's word for it? No.

Moran:
># The report is a daily labor manifest that was to list various
># chores at the Birkenau camp. Someone(s) found them and took
># one and forged a copy to include the "900 - stokers". 

Mr.Keren:
>One?

>This is so pathetic. The document contradicts the sacred axioms
>of the little fanatic tommie moran, so it *has* to be a forgery. 

Moran:
># Since the camp was in operation for two years or more, over 
># 700 days we should expect more documents than just one. 

Mr.Keren:
>Old fool. The huge numbers of stokers are mentioned in *all*
>the labor document reports that were found.

"all the labor copies that were found"?  That would be "dozens" like
you said above?  

Again, who found the copies, where were they found, when were they
found, and, and, and, where can the random researcher find proof they
are authentic?

Moran had theorized:
># This document forgery could be the direct result of Mr.Keren's
># involvement since he seems to be the only one that has contact with some
># party in Germany who says he found it in archives.


Mr.Keren says:
>Careful, tommie. You've crossed the line here.

>What "party in Germany"? tommie's insane.

>Sigh. Listen, you pathetic wretch. The documents are known for
>a long time. They have been in the Auschwitz Museum for years.
>They are mentioned in the literature. Am I also responsible
>for planting a mention of them in Gilbert's 1985 book?
>
>You're really losing it, aren't you? The squalid light is
>dimming. Seems like poor old tommie is getting ready to join
>Himmler in pig hell.

Well anyway Mr.Keren, there are no authentic work sheet(s), only
whatever you come up with. The only thing you have ever listed is one
(1).  Some ones (probably the Russians) found the work sheets that the
Germans left behind just like all the other things the Germans left
behind, including the plans for the alleged murder weapons (Cremas)
including photographs of the buildings as they were being constructed.
We have it that the Germans went out of there way to destroy all the
evidence and yet they left all that behind. including work sheets that
says there were 900 cremation workers? 

Who found the work sheets, how many did they find, when were they
found and who had them until "1985" when you "planted" mention of them
in Gilbert's book?  


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:48:58 EDT 2001
Article: 975916 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: tommie moran loses its sanity (Re: Holocaust chimney icon exposed)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:02:43 GMT
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Moran had said:
>### There are no "reports" plural.  

Mr.Keren says:
>## Liar. There are dozens of them, as I have told tommie quite a few
>## times.

Moran recalled:
># Mr.Keren says there are dozens? That would be out of some 700?

Mr.Keren:
>Not 700, because only a small part of the labor deployment 
>reports were recovered. But all of them (from 1944)
>mention hundreds of stokers. To the best of my 
>knowledge, there are no reports from 1939-1943.
>
>moran lied through his teeth when he claimed there 
>was only one report. And he will repeat this lie next time
>that the documents are discussed. These old nazis
>never learn.

Okay, now we have "only a small part" of the records were recovered.
He also says there were none recovered from 1939-1943, only 1944. So
with that we can see "only a small part" from 1944. Mr.Keren has
already said "dozens" so with that we can see "dozens" from 1944. How
many dozens, plural?  Two, three, what? And where can we find the
originals of these dozens? Mr.Keren says from the Auschwitz museum.
Would anyone have access to these dozens? Nope. Should we notice that
Mr.Keren has yet to refer the reader over to one of his URLs to show
us what he has in way of presenting any of these documents? Yes.

                     ======================            

Mr.Keren had said:
>## More utter garbage. The reports are mentioned in books such as
>## Gilbert's "The Holocaust" and Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicles".

Moran said:
># Should we take Mr.Keren's word for it? No.

Mr.Keren:
>Old nazi kook. Everyone can check the book. Unless you're
>claiming that I also "forged" all its copies worldwide.
>
>Can anyone believe this crazy old nazi? He's really going
>down the tubes.

Okay, all Mr.Keren does is to return to call some names.

                    ======================

Moran had theorized:
># This document forgery could be the direct result of Mr.Keren's
># involvement since he seems to be the only one that has contact with some
># party in Germany who says he found it in archives.

Mr.Keren:
>moron had nearly committed libel.

>What "party in Germany"? tommie's insane.

>No response to this. No response to the fact that the 
>documents are in the Auschwitz Museum and have been
>discussed in books. What "party in Germany", old kook?

Mr.Keren:
>## Sigh. Listen, you pathetic wretch. The documents are known for
>## a long time. They have been in the Auschwitz Museum for years.
>## They are mentioned in the literature. Am I also responsible
>## for planting a mention of them in Gilbert's 1985 book?

Moran wondered:
># Who found the work sheets,

Mr.Keren says:
>The Poles.

Moran is going to file this exchange away and then in time recover
where Mr.Keren has said once that the work sheets had been discovered
in Germany by some German archivist. We still don't have anything from
Mr.Keren to show us that the sheets were discovered before 1985.
We can still think about Mr.Keren saying he was responsible for
"planting" the sheets in Gilbert's book.

Moran had asked again:
># how many did they find, 

Mr.Keren says now:
>I don't recall the exact number; I think that about 60. Many
>are mentioned in Czech's "Auschwitz Chronicles".

Okay, that would be about 5 dozen. Mr.Keren had said "dozens".  He
says "many" are mentioned in Czech's book. He has already said there
was something in Gilbert's book and when ask if we should take
Mr.Keren's word for it all Mr.Keren did was return with something
about "old nazi kook". Lets see what we get this time - Should we take
Mr.Keren's word for it that we can find "many" in Czech's book?

Moran had wondered:
># when were they found

Mr.Keren:
>In 1945, after the camp was liberated.

Okay the Russians found them. Moran had wondered how it was that the
Germans who are said to have tried to destroy all records and signs of
mass extermination would have left behind all the plans for the
construction of the alleged gas chambers, scores of photos of the
facilities as they were being built and allegedly these work sheets
that would tell us there was a awesome extermination process that
required 900 workers a day to see it through. Mr.Keren couldn't bring
himself to address that.  

Moran had wondered:
># and who had them until "1985" when you "planted" mention of them in
>Gilbert's book?  

Mr.Keren:
>The Auschwitz Museum.

>Bahaha. The old nazi is trying to be funny. Soon he'll claim 
>that I also "forged" the Holtz-Elliot 1941 paper.

Where did these work sheets come from? They were probably found when
the Russians took over the Birkenau camp since the Germans seem to
have left everything behind not having committed any mass
exterminations. Eventually someone(s) took one or two and forged new
ones with the references to huge numbers of extermination workers
inserted into the existing listing of camp details. 

Now whoever tries to present these forgeries has the burden of showing
the one or two that Mr.Keren has someplace along side of sixty others,
according to Mr.Keren's numbers, and these 60 would have to be shown
to be authentic. Forging one or two is one thing but forging 60 is
another.

The reader should understand that whenever we have someone like
Mr.Keren referring us over to records stored in Poland that we will
never be seeing anything that would show they really exist or that
anything they have is authentic. Polish files are not open to the
random researcher. In fact you can get prison time for denying the
Holocaust in Poland. Which means instead of putting their money where
their mouths are they lock you up.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:48:59 EDT 2001
Article: 975918 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:08:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran had said:
>>[ Nope, no remains were found. Only phony reports that says remains
>>were found. 

Daffer replied:
>>>  You can't prove this statement. 

Moran knowing that Daffer wouldn't have anything said:
>>You're right. Only those that profess the reports and argue their
>>credibility can prove them. Now if someone professes something and
>>they don't support it with any proof then that may be taken as proof
>>they don't exist. Especially if someone calls on the professor to
>>prove any findings. Whadda got?

Moran merely included Daffer's reply by introducing it with, 'Daffer
returned to show he had nothing':
>>That's all we need to know.
>>
>>  You made a statement of fact which you now admit was unwarrented.
>>
>>whd
>>-- 
>>David E. Michael comments on the attacks of Sept 11, 2001, where
>>Islamic fundamentalists hijacked 4 airlines and crashed them, complete
>>with crew and passengers, two into the two World Trade Center's and
>>one into the Pentagon, the fourth crashing after the passengers had
>>been informed of their fate and decided to risk death to save innocent
>>civilisans. These four attacks had a combined death toll of over 6000
>>civilians. He writes, approvingly:
>>
>>
>>"It was not a terrorist attack. It was an extremely well-targeted military
>>operation in which there were unfortunate civilian casualties. And if that
>>operation makes the American government think twice about sponsoring murder
>>and oppression overseas then it may indeed save lives in the long run."
>>
>>
>>David E. Michael's idea of a 'military operation.' With such
>>casuistry, can anyone doubt the truth that he is a moral cretin.

Now Daffer returns yet again to show he has nothing:
It's not my assertion to prove. You claimed that no remains were
>> >  You made a statement of fact which you now admit was unwarrented.

>  Which is still true. It's even true by *your* strange standard of
>  proof.

So there we have it. Daffer says something exists and when he's called
on to prove it all we get is what we got already, which is nothing but
child talk.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:48:59 EDT 2001
Article: 975919 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Medical consequences of political correctness
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:11:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:01:26 GMT, Celine Stone
 wrote:

>- On April 25, 2001, the CDC reported that "We are seeing substantial 
>increases in sexually transmitted diseases among men who have sex with men 
>in 
>multiple locations across this country." (Center for Disease Control)
>
>- 50% of suicides can be attributed to gays. 
>(Kaifetz, J. "Homosexual Rights Are Concern for Some," Post-Tribune, 18 
>December 1992.)  If this figure is correct, then it can also be assumed that
>50% of the suicide-terrorists are gay.  Considering less than 5% of the
>population are homosexual, it can be deduced that gay men are also
>grossly over-represented amongst suicide terrorists.
> 
>- One study reports 70% of gays admitting to having sex only one time with 
>over 50% of their partners (Bell, A. and Weinberg, M. Homosexualities: a 
>Study 
>of Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1978)
>
>- Gays live unhealthy lifestyles, and have historically accounted for the 
>bulk 
>of syphilis, gonorrhea, Hepatitis B, the "gay bowel syndrome" (which attacks 
>the intestinal tract), tuberculosis and cytomegalovirus (United States 
>Congressional Record, June 29, 1989. )
>
>- Nearly 100% of all men who are sexually molested, were molested by 
>homosexual males. (Rev Steven West "The Gay Report", 1967, Page 291)


Could all that be why it's Jews that are so adamant about condemning
the Boy Scouts for not wanting homosexuals as Scout Masters?


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:00 EDT 2001
Article: 975920 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Taliban to Bush - Lets see proof and we'll ...
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:15:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mroan had reported and commented:

>Los Angeles Times, Oct.15, 2001
>
>Bush Says No to New Taliban Offer for Talks
>
>War: Regime proposes to discuss handing over Bin Laden to a third
>country if the U.S. gives attack evidence and halts air strikes.
>Powell heads to the region to bolster coalition support.
>
>[ Okay, that's all we need to know for now. 
>
>The fact is the people currently in control of Washington DC haven't
>presented any proof. The only thing reported was that they sent an
>envoy to the European nations and he delivered a oral presentation and
>nothing else. Then it was the tough guy blaring Tony Blair who the
>next day delivered a raving speech to Parliament telling them about
>what they had. 
>
>The general excuse for not coming up with anything is that if they,
>the United States and Britain ("coalition" of two) did they would
>jeopardize and compromise intelligence. 
>
>Regardless of whether or not Bin Laden has made some videos that
>hammer away at the United States it doesn't say anything about him
>being directly involved. The chances are 50/50 he knew about the plan.
>
>Either way we have a sticky problem for the Bush/Blair tag team. Here
>they are being challenged to show the proof and offered the turn over
>of Bin Laden if they do. 
>
>Of course the Taliban knows that they can't give up Bin Laden to the
>United States because the "super power" can't take the risk of a long
>and well publicized trial which would inevitably reveal the causes and
>effects of things. The Taliban knows that Bin Laden would be
>assassinated. 
>
>But then again if corrupt people in the U.S. did assassinate Bin Laden
>that would only make things very nasty. A martyr would be born and
>everyone would be looking sideways at it. 
>
>What if it came around to where the Taliban announced they would give
>up Bin Laden to a third nation regardless of getting any proof? Of
>course we would have a lot of crowing about that from the Wicked Witch
>and its henchman but the world would stand behind the Taliban. 
>
>As it stands the Taliban has tossed some chips into the poker pot and
>has called Bush and Blair on their hand.  


Daffer replies with one of his usuals:
>Did you miss that memo? I got mine. You should check your mail more
>frequently, Tom.



From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:00 EDT 2001
Article: 975965 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DID JEWS DO IT?
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:17:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:12:01 -0500 (CDT), Incognito Innominatus
 wrote:

>"All the signs indicate that the Jews have the most to gain from an explosion like that,"
>Egyptian Sheikh Muhammad Al-Gamei'a, the imam of the Islamic Cultural Center and Mosque
>of New York City, told the website alazhar-gaza.edu, an unofficial Al-Azhar University
>site. "They are the only ones capable of planning such acts."

That's what pisses Jews off the most about it. That they have been
upstaged in daring do. The only thing they have for their self
bellowing about their awesome bravado is their raid on Entebbe to
recover a highjacked airliner from African tribesmen. Now they try to
imply credit for the attack.

The article is a phony.

I thought the Palestinian hang glider raid on a Jewish military unit
was great. One lone Palestinian soared into the camp with a hang
glider and killed a number of Jewish soldiers. An incredible feat of
true bravery - but the Jews call it a "terrorist" attack - even though
it was on a military unit. We have real men, and those that cry like
babies.  


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:00 EDT 2001
Article: 975966 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Big Hebe Whacked In Palestine
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:21:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>Wednesday October 17 4:54 AM ET
>
>Israel's Tourism Minister Killed


In that the Jewish state goes around and asassinates Palestinians it
appears that the Jewish state is in tough spot in crying over this
one. How will we see it covered in the Jewish state's subordinate
United States media?  "Terrorism"


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:01 EDT 2001
Article: 975972 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Big Hebe Whacked In Palestine
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:45:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>Zeevi was among seven ultra-nationalists who pulled out of Sharon's
>coalition government on Monday. Their resignation was to take effect
>Wednesday.

...

>Zeevi and other members of the National Union, a bloc of two small parties,
>said Monday they were leaving Sharon's government because they were opposed
>to the easing of tough security restrictions on the movements of
>Palestinians.


>The move underlined the deep split among Israelis 


There is no deep split among those in the Jewish state. They left as
part of an act to make it look like that the Sharon government was
making big time concessions. That's one of their tricks, to express
disagreement with something that is totally supportive of Jewish
agendas to make it look like it ain't. 

Take for instance this recent trick -

Quarter page ad

New York Times, Oct.11, 2001

By FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting), a Jewish organization,
complaining about the fairness of reporting on FOX NEWS. The ad tells
us they are biased for Republicans. The real intent of the ad is to
have us believe that FOX NEWS is okay in all respects except that. The
fact is FOX NEWS is a flaming pro-Zionist/Jewish state propaganda
machine.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:01 EDT 2001
Article: 976053 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Innocent Tourism Minister is Victim: Far-Right Israeli Minister Shot to  Death
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 22:58:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Susan Cohen sqeals:
>Interesting that there's no source given for this "article."
>And even more interesting that a *tourism* minister
>is decribed as "hard line". What's he hard-line on?
>That tourists be forced to come into the country??
>What a crock!!!

He's reported to be hard line in the L.A.Times.

Cohen continuing with some Jewish stuff:
>His opinions on ARabs are not governmental ones.

Sure they would be. The policies of the Jewish state are 'hard line'.



From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:02 EDT 2001
Article: 976054 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.frii.net!64.152.100.70.MISMATCH!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EU Condemns "cowardly attack" on "state" of Israel
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 23:03:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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EU condemns 'cowardly attack' on State of Israel

By The Associated Press

>BRUSSELS, Belgium - The European Union condemned the killing of Israel's
>ultranationalist tourism minister today in an ambush claimed by Palestinian
>militants. 
>
>"I would like to condemn in the strongest possible terms the assassination this
>morning of Rehavam Ze'evi," Javier Solana, the EU's chief of foreign and
>security policy, said in a statement. "Every effort should be made to bring to
>justice the perpetrators of this crime." 
>
>In a separate statement, EU's external relations commissioner, Chris Patten,
>said the attack was "an appalling act of wanton violence and a cowardly attack
>on the State of Israel." 
>
>"The murderers no doubt aimed to undermine, once again, the efforts to bring
>new momentum to the peace process in the Middle East," Patten said. "We must
>not allow them to succeed in their wicked aims." 
>
>The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine said the shooting came as
>revenge for the killing of its leader, Mustafa Zibri, who died August 27th in a
>targeted Israeli rocket attack. 
>
>Ze'evi was shot by gunmen outside his room at a hotel in Jerusalem. He later
>died at hospital. 
>
>The 75-year-old minister tendered his resignation in Prime Minister Ariel
>Sharon's coalition cabinet on Monday in protest to Sharon's easing of travel
>restrictions against Palestinians.

"EU condemns 'cowardly attack' on State of Israel"?

"Cowardly"? Meaning the Jewish state assassinating the Palestinians is
courageous? 

Anyway, two cowardly mice saying something doesn't necessarily mean
everyone else. 



From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:02 EDT 2001
Article: 976261 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: #Bush angry about Ze'evi killing.........
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:01:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>Bush condemns Ze'evi killing; Sharon: Arafat is responsible 
>
>By Ha'aretz Service and Agencies 
>
>
>A minute of silence is observed Wednesday in the Knesset for Rehavam 
>Ze'evi whose empty seat is covered with a black ribbon. 
>(Photo: AP) 
>
>U.S. President George W. Bush condemned "in the strongest terms" the 
>assassination of cabinet minister Rehavam Ze'evi and called on the 
>Palestinian Authority to act against those responsible. "This
>despicable 
>act is further evidence of the need to fight terrorism," said White
>House 
>spokesman Ari Fleischer in a statement released during a stop in
>California 
>as Bush headed to China for a summit. 


In neither the New York or Los Angeles Times do they say Bush said
anything. They say Ari Fleischer said something. Trying to make a
connection the papers say Fleischer read a "written" statement.




From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:02 EDT 2001
Article: 976265 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Iraq behind anthrax attacks
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:11:30 GMT
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Editorial in the New York Times, Oct. 18, 2001

Who Made the Anthrax?

By Richard Butler

"Who Made the Anthrax" according to Butler?  Iraq, the enemy of the
Jews.

If the United States ever has a revolution that is for the people and
the world at large it can have a trial for this Butler for inciting
violence and lock him away deep in some mine shaft. While they're at
it they can round up the majority of the staff of the New York Times
and put them on trial also.  There's enough documentation to show that
they have been campaigning for hate and violence against the enemies
of Israel for decades. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:03 EDT 2001
Article: 976266 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: tommie moran loses its sanity (Re: Holocaust chimney icon exposed)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:15:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran said:
># And where can we find the originals of these dozens? Mr.Keren 
># says from the Auschwitz museum. Would anyone have access to
># these dozens? Nope. Should we notice that Mr.Keren has yet to
># refer the reader over to one of his URLs to show us what he
># has in way of presenting any of these documents? Yes.

Mr.Keren gulps:
>Huh?




From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:03 EDT 2001
Article: 976271 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: tommie moran loses its sanity (Re: Holocaust chimney icon exposed)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:34:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Moran said, noticed whatever:
># We still don't have anything from Mr.Keren to show us that 
># the sheets were discovered before 1985. 

Mr.Keren asks Moran for the info when he's the one that has did the
"planting"?:
>So when were they discovered, old kook?

Moran wondered about wondering:
># We can still think about Mr.Keren saying he was responsible for
># "planting" the sheets in Gilbert's book.

Mr.Keren reiterates:
>This is what I wrote:
>
>  "Sigh. Listen, you pathetic wretch. The documents are known for
>  a long time. They have been in the Auschwitz Museum for years.
>  They are mentioned in the literature. Am I also responsible
>  for planting a mention of them in Gilbert's 1985 book?"
>
>The old kook concludes from this... what?

"old kook" replies:
I conclude the same thing I concluded the first time I ever saw you
post the forged work manifest out here, that they (it) was forged. I
conclude that there is nothing in any Auschwitz museum that would show
it is authentic. I conclude that if there are "60" of the alleged work
manifests in existence that they don't show any "900" extermination
workers included in the assigned work details. As to who forged the
one example I don't 'conclude' anything. 

I do conclude that you're trying to pull a fast one on the reader. You
say you did the "planting" in Gilbert's book and when you're called on
to show what this planted material was you raved something about "old
nazi kook" and I conclude that one should be suspicious of your saying
Czech has something in his nonsensical book. I conclude that even if
you posted exactly what is said about this alleged work manifest with
"900" extermination workers no one would be able to see anything
credible at all that would show it to be authentic. 

In short Mr.Keren, again, I conclude that the work manifest is a fraud
and there's nothing you or anyone else can do to prove it's credible.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:04 EDT 2001
Article: 976275 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.cwix.com!sjc-peer.news.verio.net!news.verio.net!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EU Condemns "cowardly attack" on "state" of Israel
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:39:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>EU condemns 'cowardly attack' on State of Israel
>By The Associated Press

There is nothing reported on in either the New York or Los Angeles
Times about that. Both newspapers have an extensive history of
propagandizing for the Jewish state yet why wouldn't they try to
capitalize on the above?



From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:04 EDT 2001
Article: 976295 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Iraq behind anthrax attacks
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:54:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Keren tries:
>Introducing tommie moran, an alleged "fighter for freedom
>of speech", but in reality a despicable nazi who wants to
>silence the opposition by locking them up.
>
>Since the Sep. 11 mass murder, the old nazi kook moran has 
>blasted the US political system, the President of the US,
>Israel, and the American media. There is only one person
>and one organization that the nazi kook is not criticizing:
>Osama Bin Laden, and the terrorists who committed the mass
>murders.
>
>Really, it is absolutely clear where his loyalty is.


Who said anything about "silence the opposition"?  I said that if we
have a righteous revolution we would try them for inciting hate and
violence. What does Mr.Keren have to say about nations making it a law
to express doubts about the Holocaust hate story? What does Mr.Keren
have to say about "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism", meaning that anyone
whosoever criticizes the Jewish state is subjected to threats and
intimidation. 

As far as not criticizing Bin Laden or criticizing the U.S.
establishment? I only deal with cause and effect. If P then Q. 

As far as any "loyalty"?  I stand with what is good for the world.
That would include getting the Jewish state monkey off the back of the
world. 

On the other hand this Mr.Keren would have us believe we should hail
the Jewish state whatever they do including its policy of killing
little kids. 

Maybe we should have a trial for those Congress lackeys for aiding and
abetting the Jewish state? Try them for aiding and abetting murder?
Try them for crimes against humanity? 

Mr.Keren is a hate criminal for his role of perpetuating the Holocaust
hate story. Should Mr.Keren be accountable to show that whatever he
presents out here is credible? Mr.Keren?

In the end run here we have Mr.Keren with his trash under a post about
charges that Iraq is responsible for the anthrax attacks. And what
would this Butler and Mr.Keren have to say about what action the
United States should take if the lackeys accepted the blind charges?
Attack them? Bomb them? Kill them? Some more?

Slither on Mr.Keren. You reek.

  


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:04 EDT 2001
Article: 976328 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Few Answers in Terrorist Insider Trading Investigation" 
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 18:57:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.18, 2001

Few Answers in Terrorist Insider Trading Investigation

Securities: Agancies continue to search for evidence that some
organizations may have profited from attacks.

Government investigators do not appear to be coming up with quick
answers in their probe of possible ...

Despite what seemed to some people to be a glaring case of market
manipulation, no evidence ...

[ The night of the big crash when the market reopened after being
closed for a week due to the attack we got on FOX NEWS that the
Taliban had caused the big decline by short trading massive blocks of
stock.

Who would the "some people" be that are referred to above? Not
mentioned. 

Who are the "terrorists"? Not mentioned.

When it comes to stigmatizing the enemies of the Jewish state anything
goes. ] 


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:05 EDT 2001
Article: 976334 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Afro-American woman to the rescue again
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:22:07 GMT
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New York Times, Oct.18, 2001

Call to Study U.S. Stance on Mideast Draws Anger

ATLANTA, Cynthia A. McKinney, an outspoken Atlanta congresswoman, has
stirred strong emotions among Jews, Muslims and political leaders here
by writing a letter to a Saudi prince supporting his call for a
re-examination of American policy in the Middle East, which the prince
said was an issue leading to the Sept.11 terrorist attacks.

[ That would be the Saudi who offered $10 million to the City of New
York for the WTC relief fund who the weak minded Mayor Guiliani
rejected so as not to offend Jews. ]

...

Since the letter was released on Sunday, it has drawn angry letters to
the editor of The Atlanta Journal Constitution, calls to radio talk
shows, and denunciations from Georgia politicians. Senator Zell Miller
... called the letter "disgraceful".

"No one, certainly not a member of Congress, should be saying anything
in a time of war that could even remotely be interpreted as agreeing
with the position of our enemy", Mr.Miller said. "McKinney's letter
crossed that line". 

[ Well Zell Miller certainly sounds like it could be Jewish name and
what he said certainly has a ring of Jewishness to it. ]

Jewish leaders were particularly critical ... whom they have crossed
before on other issues relating to Palestinian rights. 

[ That would be they don't like anyone challenging their rights to
kill little children, bulldoze their homes and tear up their
agriculture. ] 

Rabbi Brett Issewrow, president of the Atlanta Rabbinic Association,
said ... Jay Kaiman, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League,
B'nai B'rith, said ...

[ As usual it's Jews that are the ones that have a problem with any
criticism of the Jewish state. The ethnocentric slobs demand we put up
with the filthy Jewish state. 

The United States should cut off all aid, military and other, the
United Nations should demand the immediate and thorough departure from
the occupied and suppressed lands of the Palestinians and the Golen
Heights and demand an inspection and dismantling of its weapons of
mass destruction. The world should impose an embargo on exporting
anything to the Jewish state. Cut it off just like we would do to any
cancer. ]


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:05 EDT 2001
Article: 976335 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!HSNX.atgi.net!sjcppf01.usenetserver.com!usenetserver.com!sn-xit-04!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Afro-American woman to the rescue again
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:29:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>Rabbi Brett Issewrow, president of the Atlanta Rabbinic Association,
>said ... Jay Kaiman, regional director of the Anti-Defamation League,
>B'nai B'rith, said ...

Aside from their many quarter, half and full page ads in major
newspapers telling us how wonderful the Jewish state is and how bad
Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians are that would be just another example of
what this "Anti-Defamation League" (ADL) is really all about.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:06 EDT 2001
Article: 976337 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Professors sue over discrimination
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:36:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>History professor Arie Zmora, who left St. Cloud State last summer after two
>years, alleges in the lawsuit that he was denied an interview for a
>tenure-track position after giving a lecture on the Holocaust.

That sounds like it's pretty much in line with what a university
should do when it comes to someone wanting to teach the hate crime
story.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:06 EDT 2001
Article: 976339 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Professors sue over discrimination
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:39:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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>A university-commissioned report by the Jewish Community Relations Council
>of Minnesota and the Dakotas concluded in July that the university exhibited
>a ``strong perception'' of anti-Semitism.

"Anti-Semitism" is what someone(s) are when they don't bend to
everything Jewish or don't give Jews special attention.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:06 EDT 2001
Article: 976404 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Archaeologists: Biblical Israel is a Myth
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:57:22 GMT
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>...  No one knows this
>better than Israel Finkelstein, chairman of the Archaeology Department
>at Tel Aviv University, who, with archaeology historian and journalist
>Neil Asher Silberman, has just published a book called "The Bible
>Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin
>of Its Sacred Text."
>
>"The Bible Unearthed" is the latest salvo fired in a pitched battle
>between those who consider the Old Testament to contain plenty of
>reliable historical facts, and those who, at the opposite extreme, say
>it's pure mythology. The debate reached the general population of
>Israel, sending what one journalist called a "shiver" down the
>nation's "collective spine," in late 1999, when another archaeologist
>from Tel Aviv University, Ze'ev Herzog, wrote a cover story for the
>weekend magazine of the national daily newspaper, Ha'aretz. ....

Neil Asher Silberman also wrote a book trying to make the Dead Sea
Scrolls into something more than they are. He also wrote an article
for Archaeology Magazine about 15 years ago that tried to say the
Jewish were awesome in the time.

The only reason these Jews would be coming out of the woodwork to try
some biblical revisionism is because there has been a growing number
of goyim biblical scholars who have been hammering away.

Trying to look like the truth seekers doesn' do anything to make the
Bible anything more than what it is, a racist manifesto full of
chutzpa.

In Jerusalem they have this scale model of what the Jewish
temple/government complex was supposed to have looked like which is
nothing more than extrapolating a shack into a Rome.

The real facts are, all the other civilizations in the area had a
history of magnificence whereas the Jewish society had nothing. They
had hire others to build there ships and temples. Whereas the Greeks
and Romans had all sorts of cultural wonders the Jews had nothing.

A couple of weeks ago there was a TV documentary put together by Jews
that strove to tell the viewer that anything the Western civilizations
had or accomplished was the result of Jewish inspiration. 

I'll be doing a number on it down the road, exposing ever little
detail as nothing more than Jewish bellowing.



From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:07 EDT 2001
Article: 976568 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Archaeologists: Biblical Israel is a Myth
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 13:59:58 GMT
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Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:

>... we're still in Egypt?


I like the one about the Jews being the ones that built the pyramides.
Biblical scholars can't trace the Jews as a individual group before
1200 BC and the pyramides were built somewhere around 3000 BC.

It could be that the Jews were some fragment of the Hitites who at one
time occupied northern Egypt and were then tossed out. If that was the
case the Jews, as Hitites then would have been the occupiers and thus
not any victims.

Either way almost all of Jewish history as known through the Bible is
ethnocentric fiction.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:07 EDT 2001
Article: 976589 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The escalating price of submission
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:42:26 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.19, 2001

Attacks Continue to Take Toll on Jobs

Washington--The lines grew longer at unemployment offices ...

The Labor Department said the number of initial jobless benefit claims
increased by 6,000 to a seasonally adjusted 490,000 ...


[ What about the attacks causing massive unemployment?  One thing
leads to another. We had and continue to have those in Congress
falling to their knees and aiding and abetting the agendas of the Jews
and the Jewish state which has been 50 years of warfare on Islam and
factions within Islam retaliated with the attack and now we have the
whole nation taking a dive. What about all those in the lines? They
either didn't see, or they didn't care or agreed with the what was
happening and there they are, all lined up, their rents and mortgages
going unpaid, their health insurance going down the tubes,
unemployment funds getting depleted, next step food stamps, then no
car, then their electricity turned off and then ....


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:08 EDT 2001
Article: 976591 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Few Answers in Terrorist Insider Trading Investigation"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 15:59:35 GMT
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Morrison says:
>You should see his "knowledge" about geology.

Why don't you show it Mr.Morrison, The whole thing.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:08 EDT 2001
Article: 976631 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The escalating price of submission
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:13:21 GMT
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Mr.Morris tries:
>Regardless of whether you agree with US foreign policy, what do you
>think would be the price of submitting to the terrorists' demands?


"terrorist demands"? What "demands"?  

And if it wasn't for the U.S. having aided and abetted the Jewish
state and succumbed to its agents to make war on Islam the United
States wouldn't have been bombed in the first place.

You say "demands"? What "demands"?


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:08 EDT 2001
Article: 976644 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How they put in the "gas"
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:00:32 GMT
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Check out -

"Zyklon Introduction Columns"

by Jamie McCarthy
and Mark Van Alstine

"The Holocaust History Project".

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/intro-columns/

"Introduction"

"At Auschwitz-Birkenau, in the gas chambers of crematoria II and III,
Zyklon-B was poured in through holes in the roof. After early
experiments with this poison, the camp staff had learned that it was
important to allow the pellets of Zyklon to be removed after the
victims' death, and also to spread them to increase the speed of
outgassing."

Let's take a look at this high tech, state of the art, cutting edge
design that would "spread" the pellets to facilitate the flow of air
around them so as to release the "gas".  

Under a bold lettered "Sketch" we get -

"Michal Kula, a former prisoner who worked in the metalworking shop of
the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp, gave a deposition describing the
introduction columns in June 1945. Below is a sketch illustrating what
he described on that deposition."

This drawing depicts something totally and thoroughly disfunctional.
Getting past the confusion of trying to figure out what the captions
are referring to we get it that there were four square wire mesh
enclosures, one in side of another. The two outer ones went from the
floor of the cellar up to the ceiling and through the roof, some 8 to
9 feet. The outside box is wire mesh with a 2 inch grid and inside
that one there was another with one inch mesh. This would be the
"Fixed Part". Then we have the other two which would be the "Movable
Part" which appears on the diagram as one short wire mesh box fixed
inside of another. This would be the little basket into which the
fumigation pellets were put and then it was lowered down through the
Fixed Part by a string or wire. The intended principle would be to
lower the pellets down and then have air circulate through them and
carry the evaporated lethal agent out into the volume of the cellar.

There's some confusion in the diagram because the inner most box where
the pellets would go is described as "thin metal" with no mention of
any mesh thus making it appear as if it was a sheet metal box. A
"metal cap" is shown to cover this section. Because a sheet metal box
with a cap would pretty well make it more or less a totally sealed
container and would make it totally useless we have to take some
liberty to just say the inner most box was also some kind of wire mesh
or else there wouldn't be any way at all for the evaporated gas to get
out. 

Considering the size of the pellets the inner part of the basket would
have to have had small enough mesh to keep the pellets from falling
through. A eighth inch grid would be pretty close to the maximum the
mesh could be. Aside from the pellets being confined to a specific
area as opposed to being spread out, the eighth inch mesh itself would
be sufficient to hinder the flow of air through the box. In addition
to that we have the outer grid to the Movable Part specified as having
a grid spacing of 1/25 of an inch, which would make it pretty much the
same thing we have as screens on our windows.

We end up with this picture; A wire box (basket) with 1/8 inch squares
filled up with fumigation pellets, which would be settled down next to
each other with little air space between them, inside another
enclosure made out of fine screening and a lid on top.

Thus we have a device that would have been borderline solid through
out. Something that would have severly hindered the possibility of any
air to pass through it. Something totally disfuntional. Something that
would be utterly incapable of accomplishing the intended purpose.

Ah yes, just another Holocaust absurdity.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:09 EDT 2001
Article: 976645 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust ovens - Majdanek
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:00:35 GMT
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Check out this photograph at -
http://fcit.coedu.usf.edu/holocaust/gallbr/BMAJD10.htm

It's supposed to be one of the cremation ovens at Majdanek. 

As you look at it consider what the world was told via the "The
Soviet-Polish Extraordinary Commission Report on the Crimes of the
Hitlerites at Majdanek".

That the Germans cremated four bodies at a time in each oven and it
took only 10 minutes. Looking at the photo we can understand why the
report would say they cut off the arms and legs of the four bodies so
they could get them into the ovens in the first place.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:09 EDT 2001
Article: 976646 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust  jobs
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:00:38 GMT
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According to the elements of the Holocaust story we have this
following list of positions that were involved in operating the gas
chamber / cremation process.

Shavers - shaved off the victims hair.

Hair processors - washed out the hair in a special solution, combed it
out and hung it up to dry.

Packers - ushered the victims into the gas chambers

Unloaders - unloaded the bodies and transported them to the place of
the next steps.

Elevator operator - at Cremas II and III operated the elevator from
underground gas chambers to surface ovens.

Tooth puller - extracted the gold filings of the dead.

Peekers - looked for stashed away valuables in rectal orifices.

Slashers - cut open the stomachs and intestines to search for
swallowed valuables.

Loaders and stokers - loaded the bodies into the ovens. Reducers and
stokers also unloaded the smoking charred remains into buckets or
carts. (At Majdanek where a tale has it the arms and legs were cut off
so they could get 4 bodies at a time into a oven we have - Amputators.

Runners - took smoking remains to be further processed.

Reducers - beat the charred remains into dust and ashes.

Disposers - Took the reduced remains off to be disposed of.

All those jobs would be associated with the operation in the immediate
workings of the crematoriums. Sometimes, if not all the time the over
load of dead bodies required cremation in pits. The jobs involved with
that annex of the operation would be -

Diggers - dug the pits.

Transporters - took the bodies to the pits in carts. They also tossed
the bodies in.

Woodsmen - responsible for putting in the wood.

Pourers - reintroduced drained off human fat to the raging flames.

Cleaners - cleaned out the pits for the next load.


Every two weeks to a month they were all killed to keep them from
talking and a whole new crew was formed, according to the story that
is.




From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:09 EDT 2001
Article: 976647 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Who demolished the gas chambers
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:00:41 GMT
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Demolition of Auschwitz Cremas - Whose evidence was it? 
Was destroyed evidence at Auschwitz for the Holocaust story or against
the story?

As the Holocaust story has it, the Germans systematically entered into
a demolition phase of various cremas (gas chambers and cremation
ovens) at Auschwitz - Birkenau to cover up the alleged Holocaust
crimes. For some unaccounted for reason, the only thing left of four
sizable structures at the site today, preserved as a memorial park, is
a caved-in concrete slab of one building identified as Crema II,
traces of Crema III and overgrown footings of Cremas IV and V. What
happened to all the remains since the end of WW II is not covered in
Holocaust accounts. The only tales about them are about what is
supposed to have taken place at the immediate circa time. 

Also missing at Auschwitz today is a good part of the rest of the
camp, such as whole quadrants of barracks. The one thing that seems
certain is it wasn't the Germans who finished off whatever disappeared
after the end of the war. There is one photo that exists of Crema II
after the Soviets took over. This one shows rubble piled up with some
chunks of massive concrete thrusting upwards. Since the remains are no
longer in that state it means the Soviets and Poles are the ones that
reduced the remains themselves. As is the absolute norm for Holocaust
accounts in general, the tales of German demolitions to destroy
evidence comes from 'eyewitness' accounts or confessions. Even though
there were a few thousand inmates there at the time of liberation,
only 4 or 5 tales are available.

A number of aerial reconnaissance photographs of  the Birkenau complex
are in existence, all taken by the Allies. These photos span dates
between May 1944 and Feb.l9, 1945. Most of the photos were not
released until 1979, by the CIA. They were claimed to have only been
discovered and were introduced to the public via a CIA report "The
Holocaust Revisited" in which the photos have been obviously tampered
with. A fair number of ground shots of the crematoriums are in
existence. All were taken by the Germans themselves. The fact that
they would leave evidence around like that indicates the buildings
weren't what they are claimed to have been.

All the aerial reconnaissance photographs up to Dec.21, 1944 show
everything in the camp pretty much intact without signs of any
demolition. On that date a photo shows Cremas II and III in a state of
what appears to be dismantling. The cellars interiors seem to be
exposed and the roofing material and rafters appear to have been
removed from the main' structures.

Dismantling was a common practice by the Germans and/or the Poles as
is attested to by photographs of other buildings at Auschwitz itself,
and other camps. By Dec.21, 1944 a number of buildings in the women's
camp had also been dismantled and almost all of "Auschwitz-Birkenau
III", a sizable extension to the camp that was never put into
operation is shown to be gone. Photographs of Majdanek show an
adjacent camp had been dismantled. At Treblinka, aerial photos from
Nov. 1944 show a nearby camp at a gravel pit had been dismantled. With
this in mind it can not be shown that any dismantling at Birkenau was
a process of destroying evidence by the Germans.

As the Holocaust story has it for the other camps, the Germans started
having concerns in 1943 and began digging up millions of bodies and
cremating them and then destroyed all the physical evidence, tearing
down sizable buildings, made of brick and concrete and set onto
concrete foundations, full with guard towers and fences, one with a
moat and mine field. Photos of these other camps, taken in 1944, show
absolutely nothing that would even remotely confirm any of the
'eyewitness' tales, which are the only thing the story has for the
existence of the alleged complexes. Thus we have the utter demolition
of other camps having taken place a whole year before and there at
Auschwitz, where even there gassings are said to have ceased months
before, the Germans waiting until the last moment to destroy the
evidence. As constantly mentioned, the only authority the Holocaust
has for alleging a German demolition program to destroy evidence is
founded on 'eyewitness' tales.

One testimony has it that Crema IV was destroyed during a uprising in
Oct. 1944. A couple of other testimonies have it that the Germans
dynamited Cremas II and III on Jan.20, 1945, just 6 days before the
Russians arrived, and another testimony has it that the Germans blew
up Crema V six days later and only hours before the Soviets over-took
the camp. One of the testimonies is said to be from a note found in a
bottle years later.

Alleging Germans waited until the last moment to destroy the evidence
is beyond absurd. Holocaust authorities that argue for the truth of
the story say it was because the Russians took the Germans by
surprise. This surprise would be after hundreds of miles of German
retreat. The Germans had already given the prisoners the option for
staying there and be liberated by the Soviets or going to German and
be liberated there. Evacuation of the camp had taken place as early as
November of 1944. There is no doubt the Germans had recognized defeat
way before Jan.20 or Jan.26, 1945, the alleged dates when they blew up
the gas chambers. The general historical record of the war would show
that Germans would have had to recognize the inevitable over run by
the Allied and Soviet forces by the dates cited and even months before
that.

When the Germans were wised up to the mass graves of the victims
killed by the Russians at the Katyn Forest, they went through great
pains to document the disinterment, inviting in European journalists
and forensic experts and brought in Allied prisoner officers to
witness the scene. The whole thing was photographed by the Germans for
the record. Stories of German atrocities were already in the wind and
the Germans were evidently sensitive to the tales. Thus we can
conclude the Germans would have destroyed the buildings at Auschwitz
way before the dates given by 'eyewitness' testimony if in fact they
were extermination facilities.

The only photo after Jan.l4 is one taken by the Allies on Feb.l9,
1945, over 3 weeks after the Russians had control of the camp. This
photo shows Cremas II and III to have been thoroughly destroyed and
the same for Crema V. Why the Allies would have taken a aerial photo
after the Russians took over is up for theoretical grabs. Especially
over 3 weeks after.

All the photographic evidence implies it was the Russians that
destroyed the Cremas. All the photographic evidence that isn't there,
but should be, indicates the Russians destroyed the evidence since
there is not one single shred of a forensic report by the Russians on
these destroyed buildings, not one single photograph, no survey, no
chemical analysis - nothing. Considering how Holocaust facts claim the
Russians and Poles had set up an Extraordinary Commission for the
study of war crimes from day one on entering the camps, why did the
Russians not take photos of the alleged Cremas, even in their razed
state? Certainly the Germans would not have had time to clear the area
of all traces. In fact, any photographs taken by the Russians of any
part of the camp after they took over is in short supply, near
non-existent.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? The tales of mass
exterminations before the capture of Auschwitz or the discovery of
mass exterminations after it was taken? The record shows the tales
came first. On viewing aerial photographs of Auschwitz-Birkenau we can
see that all the other buildings were either barracks, kitchens or
baths. Thus for those who were bent on perpetuating the existing
rumors they would have had to single out whatever was left over to
identify as the facilities of mass extermination. This left none other
than the buildings under discussion.

Aside from the standard Holocaust evidence founded on 'eyewitness'
tales, the real evidence and logic points to the Russians as the ones
that destroyed the buildings. The same Russians that attempted to
introduce their own mass murders at the Katyn Forest as a German crime
into the Nuremberg Trials where they the Soviets sat as prosecutors
and judges.

In effect, when the Soviets finished off the Cremas they destroyed the
exonerating evidence.




From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:10 EDT 2001
Article: 976648 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One little paragraph documents 600,000 victims
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:00:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Visit the Simon Wiesenthal Center's site and check out this absurdity.

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/t034/t03448.html

"JASENOVAC: The largest concentration and extermination camp in
Croatia. It was set up in 1941 and functioned until 1945.Some 600,000
people were murdered there. In 1945, the remaining prisoners were
killed and the camp was blown up to hide the evidence of mass murder."

Then a link to three photos.

"View of the Jasenovac concentration and death camp
 
Bodies of murdered prisoners, thrown into the river 
 
Miroslav Silipovic-Majstrovic; priest and murderer" 


Even for the usual Holocaust standards that one's a beauty. 
 



From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:10 EDT 2001
Article: 976649 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: One little kid mightier than 99% in the U.S.
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:00:47 GMT
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Check out - http://www.newstimes.com/archive2000/nov24/wof.htm

See how one little kid is mightier than all of the United States
Congress, mightier than the President, mightier than all the Hollywood
stars and news media members.

Whereas this little kid stands up against the Wicked Witch all the
above do the hag's bidding.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:10 EDT 2001
Article: 976650 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.icl.net!opentransit.net!proxad.net!grolier!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Somes bodies burned like wood, sometimes they needed wood to ...
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:01:05 GMT
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As is so often the case with Holocaust facts we have many
contradictions.

One of the most notable are the ones that claim that Holocaust bodies
could burn on their own without any assistance from an external fuel
source, ala wood. Then there are tales that tell us about wood being
needed to burn the bodies.

The only explanation for that would be - Sometimes Holocaust bodies
would burned on their own in a self combusting fashion like wood and
sometimes the bodies needed wood to burn.

Only in the Holocaust story will you witness such inane things being
put forth as truth.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:11 EDT 2001
Article: 976734 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Archaeologists: Biblical Israel is a Myth
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:21:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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On 19 Oct 2001 16:58:29 -0700, cmsahe@excite.com (Carlos cmsahe)
wrote:

>Months back the "Discovery Channel Latinoamerica" broadcast a
>documentary were israeli archeologists made the same staments. They
>said that the King David was a myth just as is King Arthur for the
>british people.
 

Some ten years or so ago some Jewish scholars and archaeologists were
trying to make a case that David was a real figure and said they found
what could be proof, which was just two or three letters from an
inscription found on one little piece of stone.

They have to resort to some real desperation in order to show what the
Jewish culture was like. Around that same time ten years ago they had
found a little metal figure and were making a big thing about it.

Anything and everything the Jews know about any archaeology they got
>from the goyim. Goyim have been going at it for some three hundred
years now because they aren't ethnocentric and can have interest in
the cultures of others. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:11 EDT 2001
Article: 976736 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust ovens - Majdanek
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:26:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mathews says:
>Tommy is showing us one of the original two muffle furnaces at
>Majdanek. New, larger, five muffle furnaces were constructed in late 1942 I 
>believe.

It's okay if Mathews wants to believe. But what about the ovens shown
in the photo? He says the Germans built bigger ovens yet what we see
is what Mathews says are the old ones. Would that mean the Germans
just built another facility building and left the old ones or what?
And why would we be seeing the photos of the old ovens and not the
new? Say, who took the photo in the first place?  Mathews?


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:12 EDT 2001
Article: 976737 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Somes bodies burned like wood, sometimes they needed wood to ...
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:28:14 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:19:16 GMT, "Fabian"  wrote:

>How is that possible? The human body consists to 65% of water, and as far as
>I know water does not burn!
>Maybe holocaust water does, who knows.


Holocaust physics are different than real physics.



From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:12 EDT 2001
Article: 976740 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Somes bodies burned like wood, sometimes they needed wood to ...
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:34:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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"Fabian" wondered:
>> How is that possible? The human body consists to 65% of water, and as far as
>> I know water does not burn!
>> Maybe holocaust water does, who knows.
 
Daffer responds:
>  Oh look! Another 'revisionist scientist.'
>
>  [snip]


Oh, there's one the Holocaust physicists now. Well,there you have the
answer to your wondering about water burning, "Oh look! Another
'revisionist scientist". 


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:12 EDT 2001
Article: 976743 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!newsfeed.online.be!sn-xit-01!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The escalating price of submission
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 01:42:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Morris tried:
>> >Regardless of whether you agree with US foreign policy, what do you
>> >think would be the price of submitting to the terrorists' demands?

Moran called Mr.Morris' bluff:
>> "terrorist demands"? What "demands"?  
>> 
>> And if it wasn't for the U.S. having aided and abetted the Jewish
>> state and succumbed to its agents to make war on Islam the United
>> States wouldn't have been bombed in the first place.
>> 
>> You say "demands"? What "demands"?

Daffer pops in for Mr.Morris:
>  Don't play stupid, Tom.
>
>  Wait . . . 
>
>  What am I saying?!?

Okay, unless Mr.Morris returns with something 'better' all we have is
what we get from Daffer. Say what is it we get from Daffer? Looks like
he's saying the "demands" are "Don't play stupid, Tom. Wait ... What
am I saying?!?"  Goll darn, if that don't beat all. Bin Laden said
that?  


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:13 EDT 2001
Article: 976867 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jews admit their connection to the attacks on America?
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:34:49 GMT
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JTA | News at a Glance | October 19, 2001 4:57:00 PM ET


"B'nai B'rith Canada's office was evacuated after a letter was
received containing a suspicious white powder. In the last week,
several Jewish organizations in Canada, including the Canadian Jewish
Congress and the Israeli Consulate in Toronto, have received letters
>from the same Canadian address containing white powder and
anti-Semitic comments."


Well, we'll have to wait to see what the mainstream press or TV says
about that. Or could it be for internal use only, even if it is a JTA
release. And then again they say that "several" Jewish organizations
have received the white powder during the last week and there hasn't
been anything about it in either the Los Angeles or New York Times. 

Now why would anyone want to send anthrax or anthrax threats to the
B'nai B'rith? What would Jewishness have to do with the attacks on the
World Trade Center and Pentagon? 

It all kind of reminds me of an old popular 50s song, 'I'm going to
sit right down and write myself a letter'.  

It all seems kind of cattywompus though. If we have it there was white
powdery stuff sent to the Jewish organizations and anthrax is
associated with the WTC attack then that might imply to the reader or
listener of any news release to wonder about a connection between Jews
and the attacks. 


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:13 EDT 2001
Article: 976869 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The escalating price of submission
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:43:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Morris tries:
>> >Regardless of whether you agree with US foreign policy, what do
>> >you think would be the price of submitting to the terrorists'
>> >demands? 

Moran noticed and wondered: 
>> "terrorist demands"? What "demands"?  
> 
>> And if it wasn't for the U.S. having aided and abetted the Jewish
>> state and succumbed to its agents to make war on Islam the United
>> States wouldn't have been bombed in the first place.
> 
>> You say "demands"? What "demands"?

Mr.Morris returns to admit there were no "demands" but:
>Alrighty, then.  Can we assume that it is the wish of the terrorists
>that America change its foreign policy?
>
>Regardless of whether you agree with US foreign policy, what do you
>think would be the price of submitting to the terrorists' wishes?

Did the attackers attack because they wanted to change United States
"foreign policy" as Mr.Morris puts it, instead of 'Mid East policy'
like the issue was? Or did they just retaliate? Since there was no
"demands" are even a manifesto delivered we don't know.

Does the United States have to do any "submitting" now? Whatever
ensues there are going to be some changes. The fact is the United
States has already submitted to Zionists/Jews and that's why it got
attacked in the first place.

The end result is going to be the total disintergration of the
American society, the inevitable end for a nation that submits.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:14 EDT 2001
Article: 976870 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The new Ministry and Minister of Love for the United States
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:57:47 GMT
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One of the state departments in George Orwell's book '1984' was named
the 'Ministry of Love'. It was there that one was taken in order to
ensure they said nothing that would challenge the state agenda.
 
Somewhere around October 12, 2001 President Bush during a speech let
on that he had unleashed a new program to teach our kids tolerance
and understanding.

Within an article in the -

News-Item Newspaper, Shamokin, Pennsylvania, 10/3/01

We got under the headlines - 

'Ridge Vows Balance of Rights, Security'

"To those Americans who would lash out at your fellow citizens, simply
because they worship differently, or dress differently, or look
differently than you, there is one word for such behavior: terrorism."
[Governor Tom Ridge, in his farewell address to the State Legislature
as Pennsylvania Governor, before taking up his new position at the
White House as Director of Homeland Security]."


And where would all that have a origin?


Los Angeles Times, Oct.12, 2001

Anti-Gossip Drive, From Whisper to Roar

>From Religion News Service

"Wahington--Pass it on: A rabbi's campaign to stop people from
gossiping is going national this week, with TV commercial,  billboards
and favorable whispers from movie stars, authors and big-time
politicians.

Chaim Feld of University Heights, Ohio, and several associates hope
his message that "words can heal" will become something of a national
mantra, leading to a nicer, more civil society. If it works. husbands
will avoid arguing with wives. School kids will stop disparaging other
kids' clothes, hair, complexions and habits. Office gossips will speak
no evil, and refuse to listen to it too.

The idea of halting gossip and "verbal abuse" is rooted deep within
religion, Feld says, but it is attracting endorsements in the secular
world from people including Goldie Hawn, Tom Cruise and Sen. John
McCain (R-Ariz). Support for a possible "Words Can Heal" Senate
resolution is building in Congress, and promoters hope for a nod from
President Bush ...

All this from the idea of a rabbi who adapted the Jewish principle of
avoiding "Loshon Hora", a Hebrew phrase for negative speech. Feld,
whose full-time job now is to co-direct the campaign, began talking
about the value of ethical speech and mutual respect, teaching classes
about it in Cleveland and getting calls about it from across the
globe. ..."

 


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:14 EDT 2001
Article: 976879 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Full battle array 2001 against cave men
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:26:49 GMT
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In the not so long ago past President Bush said he was going to roust
the Taliban "out of their caves". 

Los Angeles Times, Oct.20, 2001

Beginning on the front page we get - 

"GEAR: Elite Carries Newest Gadgets"

Inside we get a full rendition of what the U.S. soldier can look like
under "Suiting Up for Battle"

The artist rendition of a soldier in all the gear looks like something
out of 'Star Wars' and we get captions all around it telling us what
each thing is that we see.

Nomex face mask [totally encased helmet]

Goggles with shatterproof lenses

Assault vest with Kevlar vest underneath

Nomex gloves

Elbow pads

Gas mask pouch

Ammo pouches

Knee pads

Novex overalls

Assault boots

M4 carbine

Scope

Flash light pouch

Repelling belt

Flash bang grenades


And what does the Taliban soldier have? His everyday clothes and a
gun. 

It's a good thing that the United States soldier has cruise missiles,
jet airplanes, assault helicopters with rockets and bombers to soften
up the enemy. What with making war on cave men you need everything you
can get.
 


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:14 EDT 2001
Article: 976900 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The new Ministry and Minister of Love for the United States
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 15:28:01 GMT
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>"Wahington--Pass it on: A rabbi's campaign to stop people from
>gossiping is going national this week, with TV commercial,  billboards
>and favorable whispers from movie stars, authors and big-time
>politicians.

Of course anyone with a intimate knowledge of Jewish activity would
know that the rabbi's intent is to keep everyone from challenging the
activities.


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:15 EDT 2001
Article: 976948 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: tommie moran and the "Stoker Documents"
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:04:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Keren moans and groans:
>Nor has he presented any rational argument to the effect that
>the documents are a forgery. 

Actually the record shows that Moran offered up some comment on the
forgery, correct Mr.Keren? Now whether or not they're "rational" would
be contingent on the mind of the beholder. What we should expect is
Mr.Keren to show that the documents are authentic. But then again
that's not how the Holocaust community sees it. They/Mr.Keren think
that all they have to do is present some documents, testimony or
photos and the researcher should just automatically accept it all
without question and they, Holocaust community/Mr.Keren don't have to
do anything to show any of it is credible. Isn't that about right
Mr.Keren?




From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:15 EDT 2001
Article: 976952 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!headwall.stanford.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who demolished the gas chambers
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:10:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Mr.Keren moans and groans:
>The nazi kook admits that on Dec. 21 (before the liberation), the
>kremas were being dismantled. A few paragraphs later, he claims
>that the Soviets dismantled them.


Actually I think the record shows that I said the Soviets 'finished
them off' and/or 'destroyed the Cremas' after they took over. Nothing
about the Soviets "dismantled" them, correct Mr.Keren? 


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:16 EDT 2001
Article: 977047 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Bin Laden Going for Jugular
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 03:37:49 GMT
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New York Slimes, Oct.23, 2001

Bin Laden Planning to Break America

Washington DC:  According to various officials Bin Laden is planning a
multiple front attack on United States liquor and tobacco production
and distribution.  One official says Bin Laden is out to destroy the
very psychological base of America by interrupting the supply of beer,
wine and liquor along with tobacco in order to drive Americans crazy.
The official said, on the condition of anonymity, that they found
letters in the rooms of those persons connected with the attacks on
the World Trade Center and Pentagon that clearly point to a huge plan
to disrupt and even eliminate all production and distribution of these
vital substances.  One intelligence official connected with the FBI
said that Bin Laden was also targeting coffee and tea with plans to
blow up any ships that bring in the vital necessities.  According to a
CIA official Bin Laden is supposed to have some 10,000 agents in the
U.S. ready to go out and put anthrax and polio germs in cafe houses
and to plant the lethal agents in tea bags in order to create a mass
paranoia.  

According to one official close to the Oval Office Bush is planning on
deploying National Guardsmen to quard all sectors involved with the
manufacturing and distribution of alcoholic beverages, cigarettes,
coffee and tea.

President Bush and his cabinet are now considering a new 'Legal Drug
Protection Agency' in order to cope with the threat.  Ari Fleischer,
Bush's press agent said they have to make sure that these legal drugs
are not made inaccessible to Americans or else there could be a total
break down of all social order. 



From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:16 EDT 2001
Article: 977092 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "total blood bath" for the evil Palestinians
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:34:43 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.21, 2001

Israel Intensifies Assault on Palestinians

Mideast: Tanks and troops invade or surround every town in the West
Bank

Kalkilya, West Bank--Israel widened it's largest campaign against
Palestinians ...

Israeli tanks and troops seized control of two more cities ....

The offensive follows the assassination Wednesday of an Israeli
Cabinet minister ...

Israeli Foreign Minister Simon Peres, speaking on Israeli television
Saturday night, warned of a "total blood bath" if the escalation
continues.

...


=====================================================================

Lets try it this way.

The Satire Times, Oct.21, 2001

Israel Intensifies Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

Mideast: Tanks supplied by the United States and driven by Jews to
invade and surround every town in the West Bank are now poised to take
out every man, women and child of Palestinian decent.

Kalkilya, West Bank--The Jewish state widened it's largest campaign of
ethnic cleansing against the Palestinian culture ...

The U.S. tanks manned by the Jews seized control of two more cities
....

The offensive follows the assassination Wednesday of an Israeli
Cabinet minister. The Jews wave off any recollection that they have
assassinated some scores of Palestinian leaders. The Jews deny that
their having killed some thousands of Palestinian children was
assassination and call it "self defense".

Israeli Foreign Minister Simon Peres, speaking on Israeli television
Saturday night, warned of a "total blood bath" if the escalation
continues. He said they controlled the United States and not to expect
any objection from the Senate, the media or Hollywood movie stars. The
U.S. military will be watching the blood bath in order to learn some
lessons for how they will proceed in Afghanistan and eventually in the
United States if and when any signs of rebellion against U.S. aid to
the Jewish state should arise.

Peres said that the United States establishment is helpless to
objection. 'We control their social positions. If any raise a voice
against us they risk our wrath and intrigues to bring them down and
they will lose their fame and be shuffled into obscurity'.

When asked if he thought that the actions of the Jewish state would
have any negative effect on the United States trying to hold together
a coalition in its war on Afghanistan Peres said, 'It is no concern to
we Jews. We are letting the World know that we control the United
States.'  




From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:16 EDT 2001
Article: 977093 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bigots keep lying WAS: JEWS KILL PREGNANT MOTHER.
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 14:42:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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Susan Cohen, shouldn't you be going to Israel to help kill all the
Palestinians? What are you doing out here when you could be fighting
for your race? What the hell, it wouldn't be like you have to lay your
life on the line. You have tanks and Palestinians don't. You have
attack helicopters that can zoom in take out any Palestinian position
with the push of a button. Maybe you could take up some front lines
and shoot down the Palestinian kids. After all, they only have stones.

Go get em, Susan Cohen.




From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:17 EDT 2001
Article: 977449 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.stanford.edu!sn-xit-01!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Selling Bush as wonderful ala L.A.Times 
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:40:21 GMT
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Los Angeles Times, Oct.22, 2001

Bush Has Come Long Way in World Eye


SHANGHAI -- Six weeks ago, George W. Bush was still the new kid on the
global block, widely perceived by his peers as a good-old-boy Texan
grappling, and sometimes fumbling, with the sophisticated nuances of
foreign policy.

He was under fire for his controversial missile defense plan, resented
for his go-it-alone approach and challenged for doing too little or
nothing on the Middle East conflict, nuclear testing, climate change,
land mines, creation of an international criminal court, chemical
weapons and children's rights.

Today, presidents, prime ministers, sultans, sheiks and kings defer to
him. He has redefined the global agenda. And everyone wants to see
him. ...

But the summit decidedly was Bush's show.

...

...

One of the unexpected consequences of the Sept. 11 tragedy is that it
has given the new American president a fresh start on foreign policy.
It's a sort of second honeymoon with the world to revive a marriage
that, U.S. officials concede, wasn't going all that well.

"At earlier meetings, he either had to overcome misconceptions or face
the implication that people were going to teach him something about
how the world works," said a senior U.S. official ...

The global challenge of terrorism has helped. The United States is a
relative newcomer in dealing with terrorism on its own turf, though it
has been a long-standing problem for many countries.

"The issue makes it easier to empathize with our objectives. Unlike
missile defense, where we appear to be doing something to protect
ourselves, this is something where other countries feel a broad common
interest," said James Steinberg, ...

"The people in this administration have gone from being serious
unilateralists to being active multilateralists," said Moises Naim,
editor of Foreign Policy magazine. ...

The fact that one of the first things the Bush administration did
after the Sept. 11 attacks was to make a long-delayed payment of dues
to the United Nations helped prove its intent, Steinberg added.

Substantively, Bush also has scored points by not acting precipitously
and devising a deliberate longer-term strategy to deal with terrorism,
U.S. analysts and officials agree.

"The initial concept of response was that we were going to do what we
did in the past--blow some holes in something and maybe get some U.N.
resolutions that these criminals had to be brought to justice," said a
senior State Department official who asked to remain anonymous.

"But Bush said those things may have stopped a particular type of
terrorism or changed the behavior of certain countries, but they
didn't stop terrorism or make us any safer," the official added. ...

For a man sometimes perceived as insensitive to other nations'
concerns, Bush also publicly demonstrated sensitivity to an array of
background issues, Steinberg said.

...

To avoid the kind of political fallout that accompanied the Persian
Gulf War against Iraq, the administration also began dropping bombs
and food in Afghanistan at the same time, Steinberg noted.

...

"It won't easily be sustained unless our strategy takes others'
interests into account," said Les Gelb, ...

...

"That's when we face a real hard trade-off between what we need to do
to get their support for our [war on] terrorism and our values
regarding other countries' treatment of political opposition," Gelb
said.

...

...

"Never forget that the fall of the Berlin Wall happened a few months
after the Reagan administration ended. Similarly, the victory he
engineered against the Soviet Union would now be perceived--based on
what we know about what else that process unleashed--in a very
different light," Naim said. ...


[ So who do we have telling us that Bush is so popular?

"U.S. officials concede"

"said a senior U.S. official"

"said James Steinberg"

"Moises Naim"

"said a senior State Department official who asked to remain
anonymous"

"said Les Gelb"


Looks like the usual anonymous "official"s and Jews. Probably anytime
we see the anonymous "official"s appearing in the articles in the
likes of the Los Angeles and New York Times it would be Jews or even
something totally fabricated by the writer. There could even be some
place set up for reporters to call to get 'ideas' on what anonymous
"official"s say.

The article was written by Robin Wright who has an extensive history
of telling America how wonderful the Jewish state is and how ugly the
Arab/Muslims are. ]


From trm@pacificnet.net Mon Oct 22 14:49:17 EDT 2001
Article: 977451 of alt.revisionism
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From: trm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hillary got booooooooed LOL!!
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:46:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
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"Swift Rider" 'thinks':
>All great people get booed! Abe Lincoln, and even Jesus Christ.
>
>Hillary Rodam Clinton will be our first woman president.
>
>You wouldn't know a real American if one bit you in the ass.


Hilary ain't going any further than she is right now. In fact this one
term is it for Hilary.

How did Hilary get involved in New York politics? The intitial reports
telling us about her being ushered around the state mentioned only
Jewish names and Jewish names only.

You can tell by her demeanor and expressions that it ain't going all
that well for the hag.



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