The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0996


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 08:14:57 PDT 1996
Article: 61403 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:58:44 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	"Remember the Children" is the most prevalent motto found posted
>around the premises of the U.S. Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. It
>is displayed on the inside and on the outside.
>	This motto "Remember the Children" definitely does not apply to
>the Palestinian children who have their houses blown up or are barred
>from medical treatment, have their food supply threatened, their
>schools shut down and have been mowed down by bullets, all by the will
>and by the tolerance of the Jewish state of Israel, which itself is
>the child of the Holocaust story.


You just don't like Jews much, do you, Mr. Moran?

Auf wiedersehen!
Andrea Hankinson


	E-Mail recieved. Evidently the lady doesn't deny the points of
the post, and in fact endorses the Zionist policies.

	You just don't like Arabs much, do you, Ms. Hankinson?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 09:00:23 PDT 1996
Article: 61445 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:18:25 GMT
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	Seems the Holocaust story uses the records from the manufacturer
>>of Zyklon B to show that Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz. Seems some
>>of these records are missing. Whole years worth.
>> 			      	
>>    	Now who did it?
>> 
>>	Three main suspects. The Germans to cover up. Beneficiaries of
>>the Holocaust. Or revisionist types out to discredit the story.
>
>That's totally stupid. Some records were used for a lot of trials in
>Germany and elsewhere, and were often not returned, then they are the
>more often still in the last court. I can give some cases where the
>records were in another place than they were first, but could you
>understand such complex statements ?

	Where ever they are, their missing.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 09:00:24 PDT 1996
Article: 61446 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:19:31 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	Aug. 8, 1996
>
>	Letter to the editor, New York Times.
>
>"Israel Must Sharpen Its High-Tech Edge"

>	This gap may turn more acute as the influx of scientists and
>engineers from the former Soviet Union slows as Israel's young people
>are attracted to more 'glamorous' professions like law and business.
>	The letter was submitted by a Ben Z. Sosewitz and Melvyn H. Bloom
>of the "American Society for Technion-Israel Institute of Technology"
>
>                     -------------------

	Here it implys that any great surge in Israeli high tech came
>from  Soviet Jews trained in Russia. The article states that a "gap"
may get more acute because the young people are going to something
else. 
	So there doesn't seem to be any "innovative" drives coming from
within the society itself pressing the Israeli Jews to take up the
sciences.
	Further, just about every Jew that could be rated with a true
scientific standing is of a German connection. 
	Israel just doesn't have the energy that can create it's own mood
that would lead it to being the world leaders in science. The
ethno-ethic is focused too strongly in other directions. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 09:26:29 PDT 1996
Article: 61451 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Does the "A-Team" get paid?
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:18:13 GMT
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	A "McFee" post:

In message <501rfh$4tc@lendl.cc.emory.edu> - libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu
(william c anderson)28 Aug 1996 16:17:53 GMT writes:

:>: The fact that several of the holohugger "A-team" on
alt.revisionism e.g.,
:>: Rich Graves, Bill Anderson, Mike Curtis, Ken McVay, Gord McFee,
(Mark Van

:>YES!  I made the A-team!  Alright!

Bill, I hate to ruin your fun, but please nore who it was who selected
the A-Team.  };->
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
                         =========================

	Do they get paid?

	Would it be by the article? The response? Maybe they could be
paid by the word. 
	Whatever, it couldn't be very much. What, one, two bucks an
article? Penny a word?
	Is it by check? Or does someone drop it off? 
	
	Maybe their all trying to curry favor so they can get a job in
Hollywood. Become a movie star. Join the rest of the flunkies.

	Could it be their all wacked out fundementalists that can't bring
themselves to believe the "chosen" could be up to such deviation.

	Who knows, maybe all the names on the "A-Team" are aliases.

	Their styles are real close to the Holocaust dependents.

	And what about Chuck? Doesn't he rate being listed on the A-Team?



	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 10:03:42 PDT 1996
Article: 61462 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:14:45 GMT
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	L.A.Times 8/31/96

	"New Translation of Jewish Holy Book Wins Wide Praise"

	Worship: Rabbis'
reinterpretation of ancient
Hebrew text makes the 
haftarah text more meaningful
to the average person,
religious leaders say.

	Until now, there has never been a modern English translation and
commentary of the haftarah, the book of prophets that helps form the
core of the Jewish identity.
	Based on nearly 3,000 year old teachings, and written 2,200 years
ago after the Syrians banned the Jewish Bible, or Torah, the haftarah
is read at weekly Sabbath services and forms the core of the bar and
bat mitzvah ceremonies celebrating Jewish youths' initiation to
adulthood.
	But the haftarah has remained incomprehensible to most American
Jews. "The average Jew who goes to synagogue today to hear someone
read the haftarah is totally at a loss," said Rabbi W. Gunther Plaut
of Holy Blossom Temple in Toronto. "The text is not understandable, so
they listen to their neighbor talking".
	To remedy that, Plaut and New York Rabbi Chaim Stern have
collaborated on a newly released modern translation of the holy book,
'Haftarah Commentary'".

	So it appears that the "core of the Jewish identity" has been
based on something that has been " incomprehensible", "not
understandable" and has put any listeners "totally at a loss" as to
what is being read.

	Whatever this ancient material has, which was written back when
the world was thought to be flat, we can see that the single lone
rabbi will be able to have liberal latitude with any
"reinterpretation".
	
	The article mentions that the new 928 page reinterpretation
illustrates the haftarah "85 prophetic writings with references to a
variety of historic figures and academic disciplines, from William
Shakespeare to Jonathan Swift to modern archeology".

	Perhaps the reinterpretation will have implications that these
figures were Jewish or were inspired by Jewish writings, as has been
the case with other claims from the Jewish community.

	Maybe this is the material that inspired Lewis Carroll to write
of the White Rabbit that talks backwards and Jabberwocky.
	  
	Maybe this is the primordial source from which "chutzpa"
originated.




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 10:03:44 PDT 1996
Article: 61465 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: World's Sick of the Holocaust
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:19:46 GMT
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bob whitaker  wrote:

>    AMEN, BROTHER!
>    Actually, I heard Elie Wiesel say on TV:  "People are tired 
>of the Holocaust."
>    Does that make Elie Wiesel A Nazi Who Wants To Kill Six 
>Million Jews?
>    Boy, the Politically Correct types HATE to hear this!  The 
>Holocaust is about all they got left!

	I once heard Elie Wiesel, prolific writer of Holocaust tales,
say "Everything I ever wrote was for Israel".


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 10:39:42 PDT 1996
Article: 61472 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgery Of Prufer's Testimony
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:16:27 GMT
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>
>>Tom Moran's documented forgery of Kurt Prufer's testimony.
>>Moran added questions that were never asked and answers
>>that were never given; moreover, he didn't hint that these
>>were his own invention, but tried to pass them on as part
>>of the real Q&A's.
>
>Oh, please. The absence of ">" marks at the beginning of Moron's 
>own lines clearly indicated that they were his additions. He
>wasn't trying to fool anyone. It was just his infantile attempt
>at sarcasm.

	Not to mention the headers. Not to mention the identifications on
peoples programs. But then Mr.Keren posts this accusation of
"documented" - "forgery"  when Moran post any extra incriminating
information or questions about the Holocaust fable, which is quite
often.

	Evidently Mr.Keren, Ph.D, considers this oft repeated post as the
incriminatus maximus for discrediting Moran, when in fact it is like
shooting a BB gun at a rhinoceros' forehead only to have it bounce
back and hit him. 

	The last time he posted it, 7/31/96, the above Mr.Powell and two
more of his own allies posted disagreement with his "forgery"
conclusion, and yet here is Mr.Keren again. Either he considers any
usuals out here to be devoid of memory or he is trying to dupe any new
comers.

	 

	
	
	The basic premise for the interjections is to show what should
have been ask and answered. The testimony fits right in with every
other piece of testimony I have read. They're all sort of like looking
at a polar bear against a white back ground, all you see is a nose and
eyes because there is no quest for detail and none given.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 10:39:44 PDT 1996
Article: 61475 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:46:02 GMT
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Laurinda Stryker  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> >Not all Israelis support their government's policies.
>> >Not all supporters of Israeli policies re: the Palestinians are Jews.
>> >Not all Jews are Zionists.
>> >(For further clarification, see http://www.ariga.com/ )
>> 
>> >Mr. Moran, is that so difficult?
>> 
>> >Laurinda Stryker
>> 
>>         I've seen this argument put forth before, when the facts are
>> given blunt like.
>> 
>>         The fact is, the latest election in Israel shows that the
>> majority chose the person who said he was going to break the
>> "agreements" and U.N. Resolutions. They voted for it.
>
>As you know, Netanyahu won by only the slimmest of margins (50.4 
>percent to 49.5 percent): one can therefore hardly portray Israelis as 
>monolithic. 

	Nevertheless, he won. The majority. What the majority really was
I can not say. Neither can anyone else. All we have is Jewsish sources
to say it was.


>>         The fact is that almost all if not all the commentary in the U.S.
>> papers by Jews was favorable.
>
>Which papers? 
>Why the exclusive focus on journalists?  
>(And how do you know which writers are Jews, anyway?  The newspapers 
>I've come across don't seem to say.)

	Letters, quotes in articles and columns, all identified or known
as Jewish. There was also a flurry of "unsigned" editorials that the
papers, L.A. and N.Y.Times accomodate to Jewish interests. How do I
know the unsigned editorials are by Jews? By the style and subject.
Almost always they are the first ones at the top. Will we ever know if
they were written by Jews? Who knows? If a investigation was mounted
without any Jewish interference we would know the truth. 


>>         The fact is that while the Jews in Israel continue with their
>> unaesthetic policies, Jews in this country plug it as someplace
>> wonderful and righteous.
>
>You don't mean 'unaesthetic'.  Or do you?  
>And again - *all* Jews? Your sources being...?? 

	'Unaesthetic", yes.  "*all* Jews"? No.   99.99%, yes.


>>         The fact is that no demonstrations outside of a few little,
>> token, low turnout gatherings by "Peace Now", have taken place in
>> Israel in objection to Zionist policies.
>
>Sources? 
>And what counts as 'token', and why?  (A curious choice of words: do 
>you mean they're some kind of potemkin demos?)
>
>>         The facts are that one of the many absurd announcements out of
>> the Jewish community is "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism".
>
>Gosh, now where would anyone ever come up with that equation?  (Of 
>course, generalizations are always to be avoided, aren't they?)
>
>>         Now if you want to point to some little obscure token website to
>
>There's that 'token' again, this time coupled with 'little' and 
>'obscure'.  Definitions???
>
>> show that all this is not the real meat of analysis, go ahead.>
>
>>         I suspect it is rift
>
>('rift'?!!)
>
>>with double talk and I will check it out
>> down the road. Til then, you would have one believe that by pointing
>> to one exception out of the myriad of opposites this should be what
>> people conclude on?
>
>Where, precisely, is the 'myriad of opposites', and what makes those 
>sites something other than 'obscure', 'little', and tokenistic?  
>(What constitutes a 'myriad', anyway, and why don't the links on Ariga 
>and elsewhere qualify, if your 'opposites' do?) 
>
>Laurinda Stryker



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 10:39:45 PDT 1996
Article: 61477 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beaulieu break the 1 Meg psychological bareer
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:50:05 GMT
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mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>
>>I havn't yet receive any response to my question about the strange
>>way Nizkor keep track of people's posts here, but for a while, I was 
>>looking at my name in the people directory: it happened! I broke the
>>1 Meg bareer recently I joined A. Baron, Tom Moran, M. Giwer and a couple
>>of others in the millionaire club (while Matt may have join it after a month).
>>Perhaps one could say I'm a bit emotive (or nut), but this is an important
>>moment in my life, perhaps as much as when I swam a 100 meters below 1 minute 
>>15 seconds.
>>
>>
>
>Some of my stuff is archived. Most of us who contend with deniers do
>not post a lot of drivel. I'm glad you are proud that you have posted
>enough drivel to be in a league wit te above names dribblers. You
>ought to be proud!

	I guess this person thinks all he has to do is denounce something
as "drivel" and the readers should fall in behind him. Some sales job.
He says he has a product. He says it's great. Does he show it? No.


>Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 10:39:46 PDT 1996
Article: 61478 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgery Of Prufer's Testimony
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:52:37 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power)



>You just don't realize how stupid he is. As a matter of
>fact, his defense was "why would I do it in such a stupid
>way"? Answer: because he is stupid.
>
>I am convinced it was an attempt to forge the testimony; I
>also recall that someone asked if Moran's forgery was part
>of the true testimony, and Moran declined to respond.

>-Danny Keren.

	Does he show it? No. Does he just say this is what was said? Yes.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 11:45:05 PDT 1996
Article: 61488 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist final exam
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:06:19 GMT
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qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:

>In <505e4c$hfu@Networking.Stanford.EDU> rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) writes:
>
>! bob whitaker  writes:
>! >Konrad Vandegaer  wrote:
>! >>
>! >>Question:
>! >>
>! >>The reason moran is so obsessed with denying the Holocaust story is:
>! >>
>! >> 	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?
>! >
>! >       Are you saying that if Hitler, a dedicated totalitarian, 
>! >had not been a racist, he would have been a really sweet guy?
>! 
>! This is a ludicrous question. Hitler's totalitarianism was a vehicle for
>! his racism. See Mein Kampf or the OSS papers:
>! 
>!  http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/h/hitler.adolf
>! 
>! There have been non-racist totalitarians, yes, and they were not nice
>! guys. I do not believe that Hitler's racism could be separated from his
>! totalitarianism, however, because the former motivated the latter.
>! 
>! Today's power-mad totalitarian wannabes, like Pierce, Metzger,
>! Covington, and so on, are not Hitlers. I get the feeling that they yearn
>! for the days when Hitler could order the murder of twelve million human
>! beings because they love power, not their "race." Look at Tom Marcellus of
>! the IHR. He used to be active in the Scientology cult. They're just
>! different means of scapegoating, to bring out and harness the worst in
>! other people.
>! 
>! Hitler, I think, was different. Deeply psychotic, he really believed. 
>! Those who really believe as he did will be driven to genocide as a natural
>! consequence of their hatred for humanity; those who cynically pick
>! scapegoats to amass money and power will commit genocide capriciously.  I
>! would say that Hitler's totalitarian terror motivated by race was worse
>! for the world than petty totalitarian greed, because its propaganda was
>! more enduring. Petty despots die, and unless they have established a firm
>! succession, their regimes disappear; but the disease of hate based on
>! "race" outlives its founder.
>Fuckhead.

	"Fuckhead"? Whenever anyone includes or ends up with something
like that I wonder about their confidence in whatever else they have
said.
	Now here we have this person who is attending a university. I
wonder if he has any friends with whom he shares his alt.revisionism
posts?
	It's obvious he has a problem controlling himself. Maybe he is
going to go on as a professor. I can see him up in front of the class,
and some kid ask him a tough question and he says, 'Look fuckhead, if
you want to pass don't ask me any questions'.
	Anyway, this is the guy who proposed the Cremas II and III were
built underground so the Germans could get on the roof to pour in the
Zyklon B pellets.
	Any talk here about bigotry and racism is selective. He supports
everything Zionist. 'Oh, that's different.'
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 13:42:21 PDT 1996
Article: 61495 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 16:50:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <3229bc7b.5350354@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3225acb9.3254471@news.pacificnet.net> <3226f2cb.1701137@news.pacificnet.net> <3226CC81.145B@serv.net> <32283dfc.428964@news.pacificnet.net> <3228A6A9.4247@serv.net> <50cc1q$qpk@Vir.com>
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>Laurinda Stryker  wrote:
>>
>> tom moran wrote:
>> > 
>> > >Not all Israelis support their government's policies.
>> > >Not all supporters of Israeli policies re: the Palestinians are Jews.
>> > >Not all Jews are Zionists.
>> > >(For further clarification, see http://www.ariga.com/ )
>> > 
>> > >Mr. Moran, is that so difficult?
>> > 
>> > >Laurinda Stryker
>> > 
>> >         I've seen this argument put forth before, when the facts are
>> > given blunt like.
>> > 
>> >         The fact is, the latest election in Israel shows that the
>> > majority chose the person who said he was going to break the
>> > "agreements" and U.N. Resolutions. They voted for it.
>> 
>> As you know, Netanyahu won by only the slimmest of margins (50.4 
>> percent to 49.5 percent): one can therefore hardly portray Israelis as 
>> monolithic. 
>
>  If you consider the arab minory's vote, it would be something like
>  60% or close for Netanyahu. And Rabin wasn't really neither a pacifist.
>  In all the cases the only difference between those 2 parties is: should
>  we get out them fast or slowly? The only israeli's party that was
>  really sincere was the Meretz.

	It was Rabin who sent in the Jews to Lebanon to rout hundreds of
thousands with bombs and to bomb their vital civilian installations
and that refugee camp.
	The Jews always play up certain figures as liberal or pro-peace
when in fact the figures are all alike.
	For a while in the U.S. press, the Israeli "Enviromental
Minister" was oft quoted condemning the Palestinians. I took it as
witty little trick to have people think that even if the "Minister of
Enviroment" was condemning the enemies of the Jews there must be
something to their side. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 13:42:22 PDT 1996
Article: 61512 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVay, down by the school yard
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:24:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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                        [repost]
	
	Moran had posted recently "What is "trolling"? 	
			
>	I see a lot of dubbing of "troller" or "trolling" out here. What
>does that mean? 
>	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
>You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling.

	Ken McVay responded:

"I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
inability to use the English language properly, brush your
teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.

There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
(Somehow, I doubt it.)"


	


	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 15:08:47 PDT 1996
Article: 61548 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Socrates and Plato for Revisionist Rights
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:04:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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MAN SENTENCED TO DEATH FOR QUESTIONING ORTHODOXY

"The effect of these investigations of mine, gentlemen,, has been 
to arouse against me a great deal of hostility, and hostility of a 
particularly bitter and persistent kind... There is another reason 
for my being unpopular.  A number of young men with wealthy fathers 
and plenty of leisure have deliberately attached themselves to me 
because they enjoy hearing other people cross-questioned.  These 
often take me as their model, and go on to try to question other 
persons; whereupon, I suppose, they find an unlimited number of 
people who think that they know something, but really know little 
or nothing.  Consequently their victims become annoyed, not with 
themselves but with me; and they complain that there is a 
pestilential busybody called Socrates who fills young people's 
heads with wrong ideas.  If you ask them what he does, and what he 
teaches that has this effect, they have no answer, not knowing what 
to say; but as they do not want to admit their confusion, they fall 
back on the stock charges against any philosopher: that he teaches 
his pupils about things in the heavens and below the earth, and to 
disbelieve in gods, and to make the weaker argument defeat the 
stronger.  They would be very loath, I fancy, to admit the truth: 
which is that they are being convicted of pretending to knowledge 
when they are entirely ignorant.  So, jealous, I suppose, for their 
own reputation, and also energetic and numerically strong, and 
provided with a plausible and carefully worked out case against me, 
these people have been dinning into your ears for a long time past 
their violent denunciations of myself."

Socrates as recorded by Plato in Apology 22E-24A

	Socrates had the options of denying what he had put forth, take
banishment or drink poisonous Hemlock. He defended what he had said
and took the drink. 

	Socrates died for all those, to this day, in a struggle against
those who would have us accept their thought imposed by force and
intrigue.  

 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 16:26:38 PDT 1996
Article: 61565 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news.accessone.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Cultured McVay
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:25:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
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	Under Webcrawler > Revisionism > "Green Eggs Report" we are given
a brief bio on McVay, and his photo, for any one who wants to see the
face of the collaborator himself.
	The report states at one place that McVay was retired and at
another that he was unemployed when he began whatever he's up to now.
	Giving us the warm human side of McVay we can click up "trivia"
where we are given the following life interests of the person. 


beer:	    Okanagan Springs Old English Porter
champagne:    Dom Perignon, of course.
cognac:       Remy Martin Grand Champagne
comedian:     John Cleese
comedy group: Monty Python's Flying Circus (who else?)
dog:          "Tilly" (Bassett Hound)
hideaway:     Astoria, Oregon
lady:         (she knows who she is)
mead:         Chateau Bumrot '96 (Happy, Harry?)
pianist:      Eva (Hi, sweetheart; welcome home!)
politician:   Pierre Trudeau
resolution:   Never to let Lucy hold that football again.
sports cars:  MGTD & BGT, Austin-Healy Sprite, Lotus 7 Mk IV
stout:        Guiness, of course!
wine (red):   Geisweiler Beaune	 
wine (white): yetch 

        I personally don't know what McVay was before he became
"retired" or "unemployed" and took up collaboration, but it seems he
would like to have his wine cellars and fancy cars and perhaps he
found a way to have it.
	Actually it might be difficult to visualize a man of culture from
the list, more of a picture of a mod squad yuppy. Considering this bio
of interests, we wonder what kind of history he had fighting "hatred"
and injustice before he somehow got all hooked up with what he's doing
now.
	Well, anyway, his bio does him injustice. It doesn't mention any
book(s) he might like when in fact he is very well read in the one and
only, holiest of holy, libra maximus, IT, "The Holocaust Almanac".




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  1 22:02:46 PDT 1996
Article: 61571 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:34:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3229ac51.1212249@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>    Medias, zeyde?  How many medias can you name?
>
>    Almost always the Jews you say.  Ken McVay isn't Jewish.  Gord McFee
>    isn't Jewish.  Marty Kelley isn't Jewish.  Bill Anderson isn't Jewish. 
>    Jamie McCarthy isn't Jewish.  Now what was your point?
>
>    Rest of the drivel snipped.  There wasn't enough valid in the first
>    paragraph to keep reading.

	I was waiting for some fool to come out and cite these on
alt.revisionism. Okay you have totally obliterated Moran's post by
citing five (5) individuals. 
	'Oh, look. There's 5 grains of black sand on the beach, therefore
the beach is black'.



>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 09:28:28 PDT 1996
Article: 61642 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVay's little boy mind
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:23:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <3229c686.7920844@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm10-8.pacificnet.net
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	For those of you are new to alt.revisionism, check out any post
by McVay.
	McVay is the Web-master of Nizkor, the "The Holocaust Educational
Resource".
	Aside from his postings from his archives, he never can engage in
any argument from his own thinking, and more so than that, he expends
most of his energy in engaging in little "spam" tit for tats with
others. Check it out. See if you can make any sense out of his little
posts. 
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 11:40:15 PDT 1996
Article: 61667 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.mindspring.com!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:43:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
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	Having left in Nizkor's footer, I canceled the first posting of
this, but not before this response appeared, which was only a matter
of 4 minutes. Since I canceled that one and the resoponse was
attached, I am reposting it under this corrected version.

In article <322aecae.678982@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net
(tom moran) writes:

>        So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
>his opponents. Not only that, the webmaster of the anti-hate web page
>attacks the unknown family member of his opponent. Is he in some
>spiritual abyss? Seems so.   

Nah.  Just sounds like he's irritated with your lies and idiocy.  

                                          Joel Rosenberg



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 11:40:16 PDT 1996
Article: 61671 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:05:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <322af765.3421333@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3229c686.7920844@news.pacificnet.net> <2SEP199606390062@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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>    On the contrary, back before Tommy was here, Ken used to write
>    wonderful posts to a.r.  Over time Ken has cut back on that activity to
>    build the archive.  So while all the zeyde may see now are little tit
>    for tat exchanges, he is missing the history (hmmm, something familiar
>    in that phrase) and he is missing the bulk of work that Ken is
>    currently doing.

>    Again, thanks zeyde for plugging Nizkor.

>                         daniel david mittleman 

		Thanks for your confirmation and agreement with my points.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 13:11:34 PDT 1996
Article: 61686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!nntp04.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:12:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	The Jewish mind set can really come up with some far out
hypothesis when trying to show the brilliant advanced nature of the
Judaic society.

	One of their books, written in Israel by an "applied physicist"
in collaboration with three rabbis, strives ingraciously to show that
everything that has been discovered in physics to this day was put
forth in the Torah (Old Testament).

	Titled, "Genesis and the Big Bang" the author will run through a
summary of fundamental details of present day physics, from the chromo
dynamic level of quantum physics to the big bang and then correspond
it all with a reference to a few words in Genesis.
 
	He constantly uses the term "Again we turn to Maimonides ...",
backing up the wild way out assertions by referring to interpretive
clarifications done by the Judo-centric rabbi of 800 years ago.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 13:11:35 PDT 1996
Article: 61704 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:13:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>    So how good is your latin, zeyde?

	Latin? Who said anything about "Latin". How do you know it wasn't
in Hebrew? It probably wasn't since Hebrew was not a language the
world found worthy of using in lieu of far superior languages. Maybe
it was written in Latin, who knows. Nevertheless, what does it have to
do with the points of the post?
	
>    You, of course, are criticizing something you don't understand at all. 
>    What, do they TEACH you to do this in denier school or something?

	I find it poetic you use the words "don't understand at all"
directed towards me, yet this is what the post is all about, only with
something that has been read to the Hebrews for centuries.
	

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 13:11:36 PDT 1996
Article: 61705 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism,alt.activism.d,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:17:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <322afa74.4205003@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3225b62a.5671665@news.pacificnet.net> <32283db2.355804@news.pacificnet.net> <50b08g$m72@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322a1eea.20276713@nntp.interaccess.com> <50dgvg$gua@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:61705 alt.conspiracy:84269 alt.politics.perot:54232 alt.politics.radical-left:115603 alt.politics.usa.republican:270400 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:368598 alt.activism:72348 alt.activism.d:27789 alt.politics.democrats.d:116865

joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>In <322a1eea.20276713@nntp.interaccess.com> dscruggs@interaccess.com
>(Derek Scruggs) writes: 
>
>  Exactly how many Israelis have "WON NOBEL PRIZES" for stuff like
>"QUANTUM MECHANICS"? A dozen or so?

	None.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 13:11:37 PDT 1996
Article: 61708 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:50:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <322af2ea.2274773@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	Having left in Nizkor's footer, I canceled the first posting of
>this, but not before this response appeared, which was only a matter
>of 4 minutes. Since I canceled that one and the resoponse was
>attached, I am reposting it under this corrected version.
>
>In article <322aecae.678982@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net
>(tom moran) writes:
>
>>        So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
>>his opponents. Not only that, the webmaster of the anti-hate web page
>>attacks the unknown family member of his opponent. Is he in some
>>spiritual abyss? Seems so.   
>
>Nah.  Just sounds like he's irritated with your lies and idiocy.  
>
>                                          Joel Rosenberg

	So here we have this Rosenberg endorsing McVay's lashing out at a
family member of his opponent. It was only four minutes from the time
I posted the article. It would take, say, at least a minute before it
got to Rosenberg, he would read it, another minute, and then with
haste, he typed in his firey endorsement, and a minute to return.

	Too bad neither he or McVay can respond directly. If they could,
one would expect they would, but they didn't, so they can't. 
	How wimpy.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 15:04:58 PDT 1996
Article: 138268 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 15:05:00 PDT 1996
Article: 138276 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 15:11:51 PDT 1996
Article: 61709 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:00:31 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Aside from his postings from his archives, he never can
># engage in any argument from his own thinking,
>
>And you can? Like your claim that it would have made more
>sense to use "liquid HCN" than Zyklon-B?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	And you say it wouldn't? Try to explain it. Go ahead, try it.

Here, let me help you.

You take say, four ounces of liquid HCN. Two of the ounces you
saturate into some vehicle, like pellets. Now you spread them out on a
table. You at the same time, pour out the other two ounces of liquid
on the table. Which one evaporates more quickly and thoroughly?

Which one facilitates the procedure after any alleged gassings?
Which one would be cheaper?
Which one would be easier to "introduce" into any chamber?
Which one would be easier to store?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 16:02:26 PDT 1996
Article: 61735 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:16:37 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In message <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net> - tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran)Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:34:34 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>
>:>	For anyone who has witnessed the constant onslaught of the
>:>Holocaust story, in our medias and in books, it becomes apparent it is
>:>almost always the Jews who are the ones who bemoan the story and no
>:>one else.
>
>Wrong again, Tommie.  I bemoan the story and I sure as hell ain't Jewish.

	"Sure as hell"?

>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 16:02:27 PDT 1996
Article: 61737 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:18:16 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:


>How odd, Mr. Moran.  When I've used texts about the Holocaust in my
>university writing classes, my students have universally "bemoaned
>the story." We've had some fascinating discussions about how human beings
>can do such horrible things to each other.  Only a small percentage of my
>students have been Jewish; even in classes where no students were Jewish,
>I've never had a student say that the Holocaust was anything but a
>catastrophe.

	Did you ever discuss revisionism with them? Did you ever show
them any of your stuff from alt.revisionism? Would you invite a
revisionist into your classroom? 

	If one of your students should question any of the stuff you give
them, how would you respond? You certainly seem to be dedicated to
seeing the Holocaust story as true.

	If one of your students should turn in a paper with revisionistic
views, how would you grade him? How could you grade him -
subjectively? It seems clear from your posted attitudes that you
couldn't possibly treat his paper with anything but prejudice.


>What I find fascinating about this post is its utter self-contradiction:
>first Moran says that "only the Jews" care about the Holocaust, and then
>he offers several examples of how non-Jews have responded to the Holocaust
>and to those who attempt to deny its historicity, and then he says again
>that Jews are alone in remembering the Holocaust.

	There's a big difference in the acts cited and going out of your
way to bellow the story. What you should have seen, period, if you
weren't so emotionally locked in, is that I did cite the acts.
	The correctness of the post stands. No one but the Jews are
active in initiating and perpetuating the Holocaust story.

>What an odd little man!

	You see Mr.Kelley, statements like this show your emotional
direction. You're not capable of teaching kids anything worthy.	Is
this how you might direct something to one of your students if he or
she dared to question any of your emotional acceptances? Would you
glare down on him or her and say something like 'Why you little man,
you neo-Nazi, you anti-Semitic, the Holocaust is true and you better
get that into your head'?

	Why don't you line up a lesson plan for the kids. Tell them you
are going to have a debate on the Internet with one person, Moran, and
then have them do a critique and we can review all the responses out
here.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)   
>
>"The level of discourse in campaigns is so low, we really may 
>as well get in a tub of Jello and wrestle."
>   --Rep. Patricia Schroeder, on Comedy Central's "Politically Incorrect"
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 16:02:28 PDT 1996
Article: 61738 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: World's Sick of the Holocaust
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:25:25 GMT
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>	Recent developments show that the World is sick of the Holocaust.
>
>Nothing new here. The Holocaust is an extremely unpleasant subject.
>Hilberg just published a new book detailing how difficult it was to
>get his first book published.

	How ridiculous. If a Jew wants to have something published, it
gets published.

>In the meantime, Goldhagen's much-villainized volume has jumped to the
>German best-seller list.

	This could be true. But does it mean they are reading it as a
lesson or are they reading it as the Jew might read something like
"They Dare to Speak" or any other book about negative Jewish activity?
	The first reports out of Germany were not nice reviews.
 
>>	The French aborted a aquatic Holocaust theme for the Olympics.
>
>I would say that the cancellation of this particular breach of 
>taste demonstrates that the world does indeed care.

	Interesting conclusion, but no explanations to back it up. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 16:02:29 PDT 1996
Article: 61739 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Egyptians
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:29:50 GMT
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EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>  Did you know that over the past fifteen years Israel's GNP has
>>    grown faster than any other nation's?
>
>Big deal.  isra*l's inflation rate is the highest of any country printing 
>their own money today. Their GNP is measured in terms of stolen sheckels. 

	Huber, you don't really believe that do you.

	The logical resonse to the boasterous claim would be to ask, If
Israel is so awesome in it's economuic growth, why does the U.S. still
commit billions to the awesome Jewish state?



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 16:02:29 PDT 1996
Article: 61740 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Grynspan says Moran's parents "incestuous pair of slugs".
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 17:15:27 GMT
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	Mr. Grynspan's desperation directed at Moran from, "The Roman
Empire Was" 8/4/96. One of his responses, 8/6.


Mr. Gryspan:

	"Odd! So far an enormous amount of physical evidence has been
presented. It has been examined, analyzed and otherwise processed in
great detail.

But - that is considered "nothing else".

Only a pedophilic rapist offspring of an incestuous pair of slugs
would consider that much evidence "nothing else".

Errrr - were your parents ever - nah, of course not!"
                       ------------------

Moran:
	I recall when I was a kid, a child, that when some of the kids
got into an argument, they would start to say naughty things about the
opponents parents.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 17:17:54 PDT 1996
Article: 61742 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 18:09:29 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
	Seems Moran has forgotten to include another challenge that he
made to Holocaust claims.

	A few months ago, a Daniel Goldhagen, Harvard University
professor wrote a book "Hitler's Willing Executioners" where he
claimed the Germans had 10,000 camps where the systematic execution of
Jews took place. Moran posted the report on the book from an editorial
that was accommodated the author in the L.A.Times.
	Moran scoffed at the claim of "10,000" camps and in wee time a
Mr.Mittleman scoffed at Moran's scoffing of the "10,000" camp
assertion. 
	Moran challenged Mr.Mittleman to list just one percent of the
"10,000" camps (.01%) to which the challenge was never accepted.
	And all Moran ask for was, one percent.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 17:17:55 PDT 1996
Article: 61744 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: All mouth - No substance
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 17:14:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	A while back a Mr.Stein posted "The Trial of Tom Moran". He
bellowed he was going to show that Moran was "anti-Semitic". The only
thing that ensued was one of his cohorts jumped in to say that Moran
should turn himself in to some court authority. No alt.revisionism
trial ever took place. Mr. Stein never made an attempt.

	Eventually Hilary Ostrov, "co-Webmaster" of Nizkor said she was
going to do some "morphing" of Moran and announced "Coming Soon to a
newgroup near you". Nothing ever followed, even after Moran goaded her
with a post titled from the above quote.

	Mr.Stein's previously mentioned 'cohort', Mr.Edeiken, claimed he
had lost 160 relatives in the Holocaust and Moran challenged him.
Mr.Edeiken said he was going to post the proof, "I will this weekend".
Nothing ever came of it.

	Moran always gives the boasterous claims a few weeks, even months
to sit so there is no question they were just mouthing off with
"chutzpa".

	Mr.Keren, ardent Holocaust salesman, stated he was going to post
the patent to the Zyklon B to show it was worthy of use as an agent of
mass mass extermination. He said he was going to post it "soon". Four
months later Moran called him on his "soon" declaration, "How soon is
soon?" and still no posting. Eventually it showed up in Nizkor, in
German, scanned.

	Now here is a another one. This one took place under Moran's post
"The Roman Empire Was" a month ago, with Moran stating in the ensuing
exchange: 
	
Moran: 8/6
	 Holocaust eyewitness testimony is better than physical evidence.
It has to be. There is nothing else.

Mr.Grynspan popped in: 8/6
	Odd! So far an enormous amount of physical evidence has been
presented. It has been examined, analyzed and otherwise processed in
great detail.

Moran countered: 8/7
	Go for it. The "enormous" amount of physical evidence - the
"great detail" that is. 

Mr.Grynspan tries to bluff: 8/8
	Are you sure that you want it all? In context, of course.

Please reply here - so that there will be no mistake that you asked
for it.

Moran repeats his challenge: 8/9
Go for it. The "enormous" amount of physical evidence - the "great
detail" that is. 

Mr.Grynspan: 8/10
First I notify your postmaster.
Then I set up the bot. Don't bother setting up your kill file and
pretending that you didn't get it.
Do you pay by the megabyte for storage?
It takes up 2 CD's.

    Which clown are you - Bozo or Clarabelle?
                           ---------------

	Bluff. Instead of posting even a teeny weeny little bit of his
material on the "enormous amount of physical evidence" he opts to try
to bluff Moran by saying he has 2 whole CDs of proof. His attempt was
to try to make it look like he has so much that it would be
impractical and expensive for Moran to follow up on.

	Two CDs take up over one Gigabyte, one billion (1,000,000,000),
one thousand thousand thousand bytes. 

	Now Moran is back to request that Mr.Grynspan post just one tenth
of one percent (.001%) of the "enormous amount" to show he wasn't just
blowing hot air, lying, telling a big whopper in pressing the
Holocaust story as true.

	Okay, Mr.Grynspan, go for it. Don't forget this exchange is
taking place out here where you have put your mouth to the public, so
any talk of sending it to an individual is just evasion.

	Go for it Mr.Grynspan, just a tiny fraction of the "enormous
amount", the one gigabyte. Just one tenth of one percent, (.001%).


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 17:17:56 PDT 1996
Article: 61748 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 18:28:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (Tom Moran) wrote:
>
>>     Moran had posted "What is "trolling"?   
>>                         
>>     "I see a lot of dubbing of 'troller' or 'trolling' out here. What
>> does that mean? 
>
>A fair question, to which Ken McVay gave various clever, subtle, and
>educational responses -- and some not-so-subtle responses.  After
>recounting these answers, Tom Moran wrote:
>
>>     So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
>> his opponents.
>
>Unbelievable.
>
>He still doesn't get it.
>
>Just incredible.
>
>I will try again to explain to Mr. Moran.
>
>Mr. Moran -- you are a sexual Pervect, you play dice with gangsters,
>you cheat on your state income tax, and you fraternize with known
>haberdashers.  All this has been proven many times in this forum.
>It's all available on the web of course.  Your failure to respond to
>any of it is simply admission of your own guilt.  How do you respond
>to this?

	Thank you, Jamie McCarthy, co-Webmaster of Nizkor, the anti-hate
"Holocaust Educational Resource" web page, for your public endorsement
of record for Nizkor Webmaster Ken McVay's public allegation that
Moran's sister is a hooker. 


>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
> Hate mail will be posted.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 17:17:57 PDT 1996
Article: 61749 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist final exam
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:27:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
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References: <3224603b.2008991@news.pacificnet.net>  <504uu1$ko4@molokini.conterra.com> <505e4c$hfu@Networking.Stanford.EDU>  <3229b1d7.2626678@news.pacificnet.net>  <322A2FA6.2781@itsa.ucsf.edu>
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>Marty Kelley wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> > qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
>
>> > >Fuckhead.
>> >
>> >       "Fuckhead"? Whenever anyone includes or ends up with something
>> > like that I wonder about their confidence in whatever else they have
>> > said.
>[chomp]
> 
>> Ah, Mr. Moran, you are a man of discernment and wit!  "Dave Harman" is
>> simply the latest false name being used by qut@netcom.com, who has
>> previously posted as "Pissed Youth" and some other names.  You need to
>> read more carefully--"qut" is posting from a .com account, not an .edu
>> account.  He is also a different person from _Brian_ Harmon, who has
>> written extensively in alt.revisionism about how HCN worked in the gas
>> chambers.
>
>Yeah, and i might add that Dave Harman is no relation of mine.
>				   ^^^
>
>Although i was aghast to return after a long absence and find someone 
>with such a similar name spewing bilge onto the group..
>
>
>Brian Harmon 
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu

	Okay, Brian, your disclaimer is accepted.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  2 19:23:40 PDT 1996
Article: 138347 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <322b23a9.14754118@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <322b23a9.14754118@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 18:27:13 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 07:44:26 PDT 1996
Article: 61819 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 15:03:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>
>>         Aside from his postings from his archives, he never can engage in
>> any argument from his own thinking, and more so than that, he expends
>> most of his energy in engaging in little "spam" tit for tats with
>> others. Check it out. See if you can make any sense out of his little
>> posts.
>
>the irony of this post is killing me.
>
>Can you provide us with some specific examples, pray tell?
>
>Brian Harmon
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu

Take note of this sentence from above, "Check it out. See if you can
make any sense out of his little posts."

Maybe I'll help you out and post a 'Best of McVay'. 
>


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 07:44:27 PDT 1996
Article: 61862 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:36:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Moran had posted "What is "trolling"? 	
			
	"I see a lot of dubbing of 'troller' or 'trolling' out here. What
does that mean? 
	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling."
                        ---------------

	Ken McVay, anti-hate star of the Internet and Web-Master of
Nizkor, "A Holocaust Educational Resource", responded:

"I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
inability to use the English language properly, brush your
teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.

There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
(Somehow, I doubt it.)"
                        -------------
                  
	Moran reposted the exchange under "McVay, down by the school
yard" and McVay popped in again, this time to add:

"Prophetic, eh? I doubted that Mr. Moran had the brains to
figure it out back then, and I was absolutely right. Even now,
months later, he is _still_ too stupid to figure it out. 

Prediction #2: Three months from now, Mr. Moron, too busy
trying to find a hooker to take his sister's place, will still
not have figured it out."
                        ------------

	So here we have this person who is the web-master of the widely
known Nizkor, "Holocaust Educational Resource" resorting to attacking
a family member of his opponent. Here again as with his previous out
burst against Moran himself, he uses a sexual innuendo.

	Sex is an interesting subject with humans. The biologist might
state the basic function of sex is to prolifigate, and for the most
part, in the animal world, this might be correct. 
	But with humans it has developed into something far more complex.
Outside of the basic union of romance, sex can be used for revenge, to
manipulate, as a means of dominance and in many cases as an act of
self destruction brought on by stress and self hatred.
     This is what happened to the recent Democratic big wig, Morris,
who was found out to be consorting with a hooker. We should ask, why
would such a person with the position he had, take a chance on
destroying it all?  After all there has been many other incidents
where leaders have gotten themselves flushed for similar acts and it
wouldn't be a matter that he was ignorant of the likely consequences.
	
	So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
his opponents. Not only that, the webmaster of the anti-hate web page
attacks the unknown family member of his opponent. Is he in some
spiritual abyss? Seems so.   




From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 07:44:28 PDT 1996
Article: 61881 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism,alt.activism.d,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 1996 17:15:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>In <322a1eea.20276713@nntp.interaccess.com> dscruggs@interaccess.com
>(Derek Scruggs) writes: 
>
>  Exactly how many Israelis have "WON NOBEL PRIZES" for stuff like
>"QUANTUM MECHANICS"? A dozen or so?

	None.

	Correction. One of the leaders was awarded the prize along with
Arafat. 

	The Nobel Prize is prone and subjected to political shuffling.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 07:44:28 PDT 1996
Article: 61896 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's 'Scientific' Nonsense (Re: McVay's litt
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:42:22 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>#  dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## And you can? Like your claim that it would have made more
>## sense to use "liquid HCN" than Zyklon-B?
>
># And you say it wouldn't? Try to explain it. Go ahead, try it.
>
>I will let Dr. Peters do the explaining. Remember, Tommy, he
>was the general manager of Degesch. The following is from his
>book. Or, do you claim to know more about HCN and Zyklon than
>Dr. Peters? You're a funny little boy, Tommy.
>
>"the danger of the polymerization of liquid prussic acid, the difficulty
>of transporting big containers: all this was overcome with absorbing the
>liquid prussic acid in a suitable porous carrier material, and with
>storing this material in simple but sturdy tin cans".
>
>And more:
>
>"The absorption in a suitable carrier material increases the durability
>of prussic acid and therefore the possibility to store it over a long
>time; its spreading in countless pores and over the large surface of a
>porous material slows polymerisation, even when no stabilisator is
>added.  Additionally, the porous carrier material facilitates the
>transport of prussic acid. It can be shown easily in an experiment
>that a tin can filled with liquid prussic acid only will burst open on
>the ground after a fall of a couple of meters, while a can filled with
>an equivalent amount of granular material soaked with prussic acid,
>will only suffer big dents: the liquid in the can does not give way,
>the granular filling may be compressed easily".
>
>And yet more:
>
>"Further, the absorption results in a reduction of danger because even
>in the case of a damaged container, never a large amount of liquid leaks
>out at once, but only relatively small amounts of gas; cracks, pores
>and similar faults in the transport-material will result in loss of
>prussic acid, which is unpleasent under technical considerations, but
>not in accidents. Most importantly, the absorption increases the ease
>of use of prussic acid: handling containers with solid contents has
>more advantages than handling those with liquid content: granular
>material can be spread more easily on surfaces than liquid prussic
>acid: this is especially important for the quick evaporation of the
>gas and for achieving a fast increase of the gas concentration".
>
>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
	All well and good for fumigation purposes and the handling by
personnel for that reason.

	For mass mass extermination, heavy cylinders, likened to oxygen
or compressed air specs. would be the way to go.

	The statements here are someone plugging the product for
fumigation purposes and the use by personnel traveling around from
place to place.

     As far as any polymerization is concerned (shelf life), the
liquid HCN could have been shipped directly from the manufacturers,
just like it had to be shipped to Degesch.

	The tanks could have been fitted to pipe introduction systems,
left to stand ready, nothing more to do than turn a valve.

	The Holocaust story has it the pellets were dropped in, no need
to scatter, thus any liquid could be just injected at desired places.

	Zyklon B was a product made specifically for fumigation. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 07:44:29 PDT 1996
Article: 61897 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:43:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <322af765.3421333@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>    On the contrary, back before Tommy was here, Ken used to write
>>>    wonderful posts to a.r.  Over time Ken has cut back on that activity to
>>>    build the archive.  So while all the zeyde may see now are little tit
>>>    for tat exchanges, he is missing the history (hmmm, something familiar
>>>    in that phrase) and he is missing the bulk of work that Ken is
>>>    currently doing.
>> 
>>>    Again, thanks zeyde for plugging Nizkor.
>> 
>>		Thanks for your confirmation and agreement with my points.
>
>    If what you said is what is in my paragraph above, then you are
>    welcome.

	" Ken used to ...

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 07:44:30 PDT 1996
Article: 61898 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:47:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <322af81c.3604617@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>>    So how good is your latin, zeyde?
>> 
>>	Latin? Who said anything about "Latin". How do you know it wasn't
>>in Hebrew? It probably wasn't since Hebrew was not a language the
>>world found worthy of using in lieu of far superior languages. Maybe
>>it was written in Latin, who knows. Nevertheless, what does it have to
>>do with the points of the post?
>
>    No no no, zeyde.  I was drawing an analogy.  But I apologize as my
>    analogy assumed a good deal of knowledge and intellect which you
>    apparently don't have (as you didn't get it).
>
>    You pointed out how many American Jews don't understand the haftorah as
>    it is in Hebrew and most (well, many at least) American Jews don't
>    speak Hebrew.  So this very important docuement out of their grasp. 
>    But you reported that someone is now preparing an English translation
>    to bring the document to American Jews.  You disparaged the fact that a
>    generation or two of American Jews could follow in Jewish traditions
>    without being able to read the haftorah.

	Who said the haftarah, read before this new version, was written
in Hebrew?


>    I drew the analogy of Catholic services being in latin.  For many
>    generations American Catholics could not follow major portions of
>    Catholic rites as they were given in latin.  Eventually the Catholic
>    church changed and allowed those rites to be given in English.  Now,
>    those Catholics weren't wrong in following Catholicism during the
>    generations they didn't understand those rites.  They weren't wrong as
>    the Church worked hard to explain what was in the latin even though it
>    was in latin.  They weren't wrong because there was much else done in
>    the Church in English and the Catholics had a pretty good idea of the
>    big picture.
>
>    It is exactly the same for American Jews and Hebrew.  While portions of
>    the religious writings are in Hebrew, much of what happens in American
>    Temples and Synagouges is in English.  Further, Rabbis take great care
>    to explain the portions of services that are in Hebrew.  Therefore,
>    American Jews have a good deal of understanding of what is being said
>    in shule.
>
>    Capice? 
>
>>>    You, of course, are criticizing something you don't understand at all. 
>>>    What, do they TEACH you to do this in denier school or something?
>> 
>>	I find it poetic you use the words "don't understand at all"
>>directed towards me, yet this is what the post is all about, only with
>>something that has been read to the Hebrews for centuries.
>
>    I stand by those remarks.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 07:44:31 PDT 1996
Article: 61904 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Show your support - sign on here
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 13:31:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	On Sept. 2, 1996 Moran posted "The sinking McVay - down, down,
down", still fresh on the group.
	
	The main point was McVay's attack on a revisionist family member.
                        
======================================================================
	"Three months from now, Mr. Moron, too busy trying to find a
hooker to take his sister's place, will still not have figured it
out."
======================================================================

	Immediately many of his ardent allies signed on to endorse
McVay's statement. To make it easier for anyone who wants to sign on,
I am posting this space for their convenience.

	DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT
for Ken McVay, webmaster of the anti-hate Website, Nizkor, The
Holocaust Educational Resource, endorsed by the U.S. Holocaust Museum,
The Simon Wiesenthal Center and many other Institutions and Websites.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Those already signed on are:

1. Chuck Ferree

2. Joel Rosenberg

3. Danny Mittleman

4. Jamie McCarthy

5. Keith Morrison

6. Yale Edeiken

7. Ken McVay, reiterating

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

13.

14.

15.

16.

17.

18.

19.

20.

	If all the numbers have been taken, just continue on by adding
your own.
	DON'T MISS THIS CHANCE TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR ANTI-HATE.
                        ------------


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 13:21:26 PDT 1996
Article: 61939 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-f.computek.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Chutzpa = E X A G G E R A T I O N
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:51:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>  
>>  	If the machinations of Jewish innovative brillance were true, we
>>  should expect it to stand out here in the U.S., like Henry Ford, Tommy
>>  Edison, Bill Gates and the rest.
>
>	How many American Jews have won the Nobel Prize in the sciences, 
>l'il tommy?

	I don't know. But they all have European names, mostly German.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

	I have seen many times Jews citing the Nobel Prize, but I don't
ever recall seeing a direct German rave about the ones they have
recieved - or anyone else. Its a Jewish trait to self rave. In the
U.S. medias, it is the 2% doing the 100% raving.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 20:10:30 PDT 1996
Article: 61980 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interesting discovery
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:12:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>	The discovery is that there was no discovery  of any bodies at Babi
>Yar.  Not only, aerial photos of it made shortly after the exhumation
>and burning was supposed to have occurred, show no signs of the ground
>having been disturbed.  
>
>	Just like the lack of ashes at A-B, there are no bodies at Babi Yar.  
>
>	But then, it is the lack of physical evidence that proves it must have
>happened.  It is the lack of bodies that proves there are bodies
>there.  It is the lack of any evidence of disturbed terrain that
>proves the terrain was disturbed.  It is the lack of any sign of
>burning that proves there was burning.  
>
>	What a strange holocaust we have here.  The only thing that proves the
>stories is the complete and total lack of physical evidence for the
>claims.  

	One of the repeated Holocaust clauses out here is, the more
contradictions between testimonies is proof they are not conspiring,
therefore the more contradictions the truer the story, which = chutzpa
= goyims are stupid logic.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 20:10:30 PDT 1996
Article: 62017 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:09:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	On Sept. 2, 1996 Moran posted "The sinking McVay - down, down,
down", still fresh on the group.
	
	The main point was Nizkor "Director" McVay's attack on a
revisionist's family member.
                        
======================================================================
	"Three months from now, Mr. Moron, too busy trying to find a
hooker to take his sister's place, will still not have figured it
out."
======================================================================

	Immediately many of his ardent allies signed on to endorse
McVay's statement. To make it easier for anyone who wants to sign on,
I am posting this space for their convenience.

	DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT
for Ken McVay, Director of the anti-hate Website, Nizkor, The
Holocaust Educational Resource, endorsed by the U.S. Holocaust Museum,
The Simon Wiesenthal Center and many other Institutions and Websites.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Those already signed on are:

1. Chuck Ferree

2. Joel Rosenberg

3. Danny Mittleman

4. Jamie McCarthy

5. Keith Morrison

6. Yale Edeiken

7. Ken McVay, reiterating

8.

9.

10.

11.

12.

13.

14.

15.

16.

17.

18.

19.

20.

	If all the numbers have been taken, just continue on by adding
your own.
	DON'T MISS THIS CHANCE TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR ANTI-HATE.
                          -------------


(This post a correction. First post has McVay as a 'webmaster', when
it has been pointed out he's not. He is the "Director".)
------------


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep  3 20:10:31 PDT 1996
Article: 62047 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Are there any non-Jew-hating revisionists?
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:22:35 GMT
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amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:

>I've been following this group for some time and it appears to me that all the 
>revisionists who post here are overt Jew-haters.  I suppose this follows given 
>that in order to believe the revisionist line one has to accept that there was 
>and is a massive Jewish conspiracy involving the Holocaust.  If this notion is 
>accepted then what are the involved Jews except evil?  
>
>However, no one in this newsgroup has been able to provide a coherent version 
>of this supposed conspiracy;  so I'm forced to conclude that revisionists 
>are Jew-haters first and revisionists second, not the other way around.  
>
>Are there any revisionists around who don't think Jews are evil or who don't 
>hate them?  
>
>Allan
>            amatthews@cybercom.net
>=================================================
>A monk asked Un Mun, "What is Buddha?"          
>Un Mun replied, "Dry shit on a stick."           
	
	Buddist hater?

	As to your above. You probably get the idea of "hate" from the
posts. If the post is negative about Jewish activity it is "hate".
"Hate" is your conclusion, nothing more. What you should do is show
the posts to be "hate" as they take place.

	Can a true statement be hateful? Can inference from a true
statement be hateful? Can a conclusion from a true statement be
hateful?

	You want to read lots of hate. Read the N.Y. and L.A. Times and
watch what the Jews say about others. The whole thing is 'Our enemies
are your enemies', bomb 'em, shoot 'em, maim 'em, jail 'em, censor
'em. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 07:06:04 PDT 1996
Article: 62199 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:22:27 GMT
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Lines: 15
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 
>>	You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he
>>is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster'
>>of a website and a "director"?
>
>    Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg complex, so
>    we let him call himself "the Director."
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 

	"We"?  Who is "we"?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 07:06:05 PDT 1996
Article: 62206 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:31:52 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

"Dr." Mittleman:
>>    It is _Dr._ Mittleman, zeyde.


Giwer:
>	Another PhD?  Golly we are being inundated by the clowns.  
>	
>	Back when I asked after Keren's degree year he refused to post it as I
>said that I would drop the quarter to verify it.  Since he has shown
>complete ignorance of spreadsheets, I will no longer bother to drop
>the quarter.
>
>	But the offer is open to you.  Full name, degree field, granting
>institution and year.  I'll drop the quarter on you.  

	I'd be interested in knowing myself, Mr., Dr. Mittleman.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 09:24:02 PDT 1996
Article: 138911 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <322d81c9.3307528@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <322d81c9.3307528@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:21:50 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 09:29:10 PDT 1996
Article: 62211 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 16:03:13 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:


>> 8. Sara Schwartz - gladly endorsing Nizkor. I do NOT endorse Ken McVay
>as webmaster, because he is NOT. Jamie McCarthy and Hilary Ostrov are the
>co-webmasters. Anyone with half a brain would know this.

	You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he
is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster'
of a website and a "director"?

>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 09:29:10 PDT 1996
Article: 62222 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:32:31 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Other supporters for the output of Ken McVay and Nizkor would be:

	The American Jewish Committee, The World Jewish Council,
Anti-Defamation League, B'nai B'rth, Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Rabbi Heir,

the United States House of Representatives who recently voted 420 to 0
to condemn Holocaust revisionism, etc. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 09:29:11 PDT 1996
Article: 62236 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:40:15 GMT
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jboswell@enterprise.net (Boz) wrote:

>gary.nt@ix.netcom.com (ZB) wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 03 Sep 96 13:58:59 GMT, "Duncan R. MacMillan"
>> wrote:
>
>>>	How much is Saddam Hussein being paid to conduct his bomb-dropping
>>>escapades at such a convenient time?
>>>
>>>
>>>---
>>>D. MacMillan
>>>             "Usenet Enquirer".
>
>>If you're implying that our retaliatory strikes have some political
>>considerations, it might make sense if Clinton were 20 points behind
>>rather than 20 points ahead.
>
>Are you serious?  A president prepared to go to war just so he can get
>elected?  Get real.  Not even in America.
>
>Boz

	Who knows if this may be true. Yet the newspapers are carrying
this theme.
	They carry the theme that the candidates should do this or that
to curry the Jewish vote.
	The Jews make up only two percent or less of the American
population so I wonder what they're talking about.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 10:49:04 PDT 1996
Article: 62256 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beaulieu break the 1 Meg psychological bareer
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:10:04 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:


>:>	I guess this person thinks all he has to do is denounce something
>:>as "drivel" and the readers should fall in behind him. Some sales job.
>:>He says he has a product. He says it's great. Does he show it? No.
>
>Yes, Tom, you are imbecilic beyond comprehension.

	Prove it. Show it. Show your not just some little imp in the
playground. 

>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 12:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 62296 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:58:21 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>: 
>: >>	Where did you say you 'teach'?	
>: >
>: >    In my first sentence up top.
>: 
>: 	"MIS"?
>
>This thread just keeps getting funnier.
>
>Yes, Li'l Tommy-- Danny teaches at MIS, which stands for "Miskatonic
>Institute of Surreality."  They're summoning the Old Gods to help 
>ZOG in it's campaign to undermine the Noble Aryan Race.
>
>Wanna apply?
>
>Bill

	I think the time is growing nigh for a "Best of Anderson".


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 16:50:20 PDT 1996
Article: 62312 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:44:41 GMT
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>That, of course, should have been "certainly NOT worth the effort.

	Well, I guess if you can't do it, you can't do it. 

"Chutzpa", Holocaust Dictionary: Claim a conclusion then back down
down when the challenge is made.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 16:50:21 PDT 1996
Article: 62350 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:44:25 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>	You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he
>>>>is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster'
>>>>of a website and a "director"?
>>>
>>>    Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg complex, so
>>>    we let him call himself "the Director."
>> 
>>	"We"?  Who is "we"?
>
>    The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG for short).  I know we exist, I
>    even have the t-shirt to prove it!
>
>    No, seriously, "we" would be all of the people loosely involved with
>    Nizkor (though I don't know why I am answering you seriously now given
>    my nothing else I have said in this thread is anything more than a
>    troll.)
>                         daniel david mittleman
 
 	"Loosely" involved? A little distancing? 

	How quickly this fool bumbles, stumbles and fumbles.

	A little mouse. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 16:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 62357 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:46:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <322c6c7c.12513123@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>
>>joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
>
>>>For somebody who hurls noxious allegations right and left with such 
>>>carelessness, Tommy, you sure are a sensitive little tyke.  
>
>>Show em.
>
>huh?

	Show em. The "noxious allegations". Show em, and prove it.

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 16:50:22 PDT 1996
Article: 62361 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Streicher and Spinoza
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:46:24 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Isn't it a fact that a group of rabbinical students
>attempted to assassinate Spinoza by stabbing 
>him in the back, simply because of his beliefs
>and what he wrote?

Then he was ex-communicated.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 16:50:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62386 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:56:43 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	During the Gulf "war" there was a lot of crowing about how
popular it was in America. The papers were claiming Bush was a shoe in
for re-election.

	Any support was called simply "Support the Troops", none of it
focusing on any cause.

	Even during the "Support the Troops" parade in Hollywood, the
grand marshall made a point it wasn't to support the cause. (He
probably caught some flack from the dominant influence there.)

	At any demonstrations the standard ratio was less than a hundred
for the war, and thousands against the war. The ones for it in L.A.
were half JDL foaming at the mouth.

	In the press, N.Y. and L.A. Times, there appeared 45 columns
egging the country on to war. Of the 45, 42 were Jewish writers. Since
then many goyims who used to write for Israel have backed off. Now it
is almost only the Jews, all by their lonesome. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 18:55:44 PDT 1996
Article: 62393 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:03:35 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>
>Calling all ZOG agents--People's Hero Giwer has discoved that the 
>American Arbitration Association is in on the Grand Unified 
>Konspiracy.  Burn-bag all pertinent documents with extreme prejudice.

>Billy Anderson
>Coordinator, Committee on Coordination
>Hibernian Occupation Government

	You forgot to add, 'Tee hee'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 18:55:45 PDT 1996
Article: 62410 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:56:22 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <322d8445.3944219@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>>"Dr." Mittleman:
>>>>    It is _Dr._ Mittleman, zeyde.
>> 
>>Giwer:
>>>	Another PhD?  Golly we are being inundated by the clowns.  
>>>	
>>>	Back when I asked after Keren's degree year he refused to post it as I
>>>said that I would drop the quarter to verify it.  Since he has shown
>>>complete ignorance of spreadsheets, I will no longer bother to drop
>>>the quarter.
>>>
>>>	But the offer is open to you.  Full name, degree field, granting
>>>institution and year.  I'll drop the quarter on you.  
>> 
>>	I'd be interested in knowing myself, Mr., Dr. Mittleman.
>
>    That would be "Herr Dr. Mittleman" to you, zeyde.

	
	Your just an ingratiating fool, trying to humor your way out of
your previous foolishness. A hopeless self perpetuating situation.


>    Daniel David Mittleman
>    Graduate College, Major in Management
>    The University of Arizona
>    1995
>
>    That make you feel better?
>    Be careful in drawing conclusions from that information, all is not
>    what it seems.
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 18:55:46 PDT 1996
Article: 62412 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:07:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 76
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>Marty Kelley  writes...
>>On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>>> 	If one of your students should turn in a paper with revisionistic
>>> views, how would you grade him? 
>> 
>>That's a fascinating question, and it's one which I often ask my classes
>>to consider. I haven't encountered such a situation, because I've been
>>lucky enough to have mostly sane students. Every semester, I introduce the
>>assignment on argument and research by discussing in some detail what
>>constitutes valid evidence in an argument.  Perhaps you would like to
>>write a letter to my class--or send them e-mail, since they will
>>eventually be using e-mail--explaining what you consider the proper
>>approach to researching historical events.
>
>    Whenever I teach an introductory class (I've taught both Introduction
>    to Business and Introduction to MIS) I assign the students to write a
>    letter to the editor of the local newspaper.  While I generally
>    encourage them to write on a topic loosely related to the syllabus of
>    the course, I let them know that what is important is that they write
>    about something they care about.
>
>    I have had a couple of students over the years choose to write their
>    letters about abortion.  Some of the students have taken a position on
>    abortion directly counter to my own.
>
>    I have graded them on the logic and structure of their argument.  I
>    have found that I am able to do this even if I don't agree with their
>    premises.  I don't see why any good instructor would have a problem
>    with this.
>
>    To relate this with denier writing in alt.revisionism: there is a wide
>    disparity in quality among denier writers.  Milt Kleim, for example,
>    can string together a decent argument.  Greg Raven is dishonest, but
>    his logic structure is usually valid.  Ross Vicksell was an excellent
>    writer and debater.  Other deniers range from moderately literate to
>    barely able to string together multiple thoughts.  I can judge all this
>    knowing full well the content of denier posts is garbage. 
>
>>> How could you grade him -
>>> subjectively? It seems clear from your posted attitudes that you
>>> couldn't possibly treat his paper with anything but prejudice.
>> 
>>Again, this is a fascinating general topic for me and for many
>>teachers--how do we deal with students whose prejudices surface in their
>>papers? The most memorable example of this that I've encountered was a
>>student several years ago who responded to an article called "The Media's
>>Stereotypes of Arabs" by claiming that he thought that the stereotypes
>>were all TRUE--that he thought most Arabs were likely to be terrorists,
>>murderers, or ignorant lowlifes.  When we met to discuss revising his
>>paper, I told him I really couldn't tell him how to "improve" his
>>argument, since it was so obviously full of prejudice.  We talked for a
>>while, and he eventually told me that he disliked Arabs because he had
>>family in Israel and he feared for their safety.  I asked him then what
>>he'd say to a student who tried to argue that stereotypes of Jews were
>>true, and he began to understand what was wrong with his thesis.  He ended
>>up writing a fairly good paper about why he held the stereotypes that he
>>did--I don't know if he became less of a bigot, but his paper was fairly
>>thoughtful.

	Where did you say you 'teach'?	


>    Very interesting story.  And an example of what college students learn
>    that is not part of any syllabi.  People who have never gone to college
>    - and some who have - don't appreciate this domain of learning.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep  4 21:10:27 PDT 1996
Article: 62435 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:01:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>    So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go 
>    fishing?  
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 

	No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
come out and say it, "Like a 'man'".


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 07:29:41 PDT 1996
Article: 62473 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 17:36:22 GMT
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>For somebody who hurls noxious allegations right and left with such 
>carelessness, Tommy, you sure are a sensitive little tyke.  
Show em.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 07:29:42 PDT 1996
Article: 62503 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinions on Nuremberg
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:10:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
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abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
>>particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>>already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>>was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
>[and so on]
>
>Ah, I can guess what you are up to: the Holocaust hasn't taken place because
>the Nuremberg trial was the justice of victors. When will you finally get it into
>your thick head that the files of the Nuremberg trials are _NOT_ the primary
>source material for the history of Holocaust. Tons and tons of completely
>unambiguous material has been produced in the time between 33 and 45.
>You and the other "revisionists" don't know it. That's all, but it's not an
>excuse.

>Idiot.

>Nele

	Now that you are admitting that the first material, that which
was used at Nuremberg, is ambiguous maybe you can introduce your other
evidence, the "tons and tons of unamgiguous material".

	Go for it. Just show a few pounds of the "tons and tons". 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 07:29:42 PDT 1996
Article: 62542 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:50:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 171
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >How odd, Mr. Moran.  When I've used texts about the Holocaust in my
>> >university writing classes, my students have universally "bemoaned
>> >the story." We've had some fascinating discussions about how human beings
>> >can do such horrible things to each other.  Only a small percentage of my
>> >students have been Jewish; even in classes where no students were Jewish,
>> >I've never had a student say that the Holocaust was anything but a
>> >catastrophe.
>> 
>> 	Did you ever discuss revisionism with them? 
>
>Yes.
>
>> Did you ever show them any of your stuff from alt.revisionism? 
>
>Yes. In fact, I've used segments from our discussion of the "secular
>menorah"--with nothing deleted from your writing--in my class. My students
>were amused at your basic misunderstanding of simple English phrases.  As
>I said at the time, your misreading of my summary of one court case 
>presented an excellent opportunity to discuss why commas are important.

	Too bad you didn't let me know. I could have come over and
participated.


>>Would you invite a revisionist into your classroom? 
>
>I generally wouldn't, because I teach a writing class, not a history
>class.  Further, since Holocaust denial is an exercise in
>pseudo-knowledge that is on a par with "creation
>science" and UFO "studies", I believe it is worth studying as a
>phenomenon, but not as a valid historical perspective.

	I see it as the other way around. You remember my "UFO/Holocaust
Analogy".

>However, I would like to give you a chance, Mr. Moran: I hereby invite you
>to come visit my composition classes at Pima Community College, and to
>tell them all about Holocaust revisionism.  I teach Tuesday and Thursday
>mornings; more details can be arranged if you accept my invitation. Please
>be aware that this is an invitation to speak to the class only; i am
>unable to provide you with any financial assistance for travel and
>lodging.  Perhaps some of your supporters in the Denier community can fund
>your visit.

	Okay. Hopefully we can line it up before the end of this
semester. Don't worry about any financing. I'll stay at your place.


>> 	If one of your students should question any of the stuff you give
>> them, how would you respond? You certainly seem to be dedicated to
>> seeing the Holocaust story as true.
>
>My students regularly question me--that's an important part of my teaching
>methodology. I encourage a spirit of vigorous, intellectually rigorous
>inquiry in my students. I am certainly dedicated to truth, which is why I
>accept the documented history of the Holocaust.
>
>> 	If one of your students should turn in a paper with revisionistic
>> views, how would you grade him? 
>
>That's a fascinating question, and it's one which I often ask my classes
>to consider. I haven't encountered such a situation, because I've been
>lucky enough to have mostly sane students. Every semester, I introduce the
>assignment on argument and research by discussing in some detail what
>constitutes valid evidence in an argument.  Perhaps you would like to
>write a letter to my class--or send them e-mail, since they will
>eventually be using e-mail--explaining what you consider the proper
>approach to researching historical events.

	First thing I do will be to introduce them to the "Argumentums".
As far as any "proper" way of researching history, we have to
recognize that there are different demands for different situations. 
	The Holocaust gives us a clear example as opposed to others.
Whereas the Holocaust relies very heavily on "eye-witness" accounts
and interpretation of documents, most rely a lot on archeological
evidence, physical evidence and actual documents without the motive
that perpetuates the Holocaust story.
	The credibility of the Holocaust evidence is severely strained in
that so much of the old accounts and assertions have been recognized
as fiction. Once we give a good account of the old extinct evidence we
have to take a look at whatever remains with a little suspicion.
	The Holocaust is severely devoid of forensic archeological
studies that should have been done, that should be done to this day,
especially in lieu of the challenges being made.
	This is but a small percentage of the special circustances we can
consider for the determination of "proper".   

>> How could you grade him -
>> subjectively? It seems clear from your posted attitudes that you
>> couldn't possibly treat his paper with anything but prejudice.
>
>Again, this is a fascinating general topic for me and for many
>teachers--how do we deal with students whose prejudices surface in their
>papers? The most memorable example of this that I've encountered was a
>student several years ago who responded to an article called "The Media's
>Stereotypes of Arabs" by claiming that he thought that the stereotypes
>were all TRUE--that he thought most Arabs were likely to be terrorists,
>murderers, or ignorant lowlifes.  When we met to discuss revising his
>paper, I told him I really couldn't tell him how to "improve" his
>argument, since it was so obviously full of prejudice.  We talked for a
>while, and he eventually told me that he disliked Arabs because he had
>family in Israel and he feared for their safety.  I asked him then what
>he'd say to a student who tried to argue that stereotypes of Jews were
>true, and he began to understand what was wrong with his thesis.  He ended
>up writing a fairly good paper about why he held the stereotypes that he
>did--I don't know if he became less of a bigot, but his paper was fairly
>thoughtful.

	Good work.
>[snip]
>
>> >What an odd little man!
>> 
>> 	You see Mr.Kelley, statements like this show your emotional
>> direction. You're not capable of teaching kids anything worthy.	Is
>> this how you might direct something to one of your students if he or
>> she dared to question any of your emotional acceptances? Would you
>> glare down on him or her and say something like 'Why you little man,
>> you neo-Nazi, you anti-Semitic, the Holocaust is true and you better
>> get that into your head'?
>
>Nahh, Mr. Moran, I'll be the first to admit that I'm much less respectful
>of you  than I am of my students.  That's because you're a vicious, lying,
>antisemite who regularly insults people and whose writing is full of the
>most outrageous leaps of illogic, whereas my students are for
>the most part decent human beings who want to learn something.  If you
>attend my class, however, I will treat you with the same courtesy I would
>extend to any guest speaker.

	Golly what a flurry. And here I was being nice to you. I'll bring
along a few of your post and ask the students to put you to the test
to show it all. After all you haven't been able to do it so far. The
only thing you have attempted is to keep posting the same thing
whereas I have written over two hundred articles, one of which was "No
more M E N O R A H?" which sorely stresses that, one, you keep digging
up from Nizkor.

>> 	Why don't you line up a lesson plan for the kids. Tell them you
>> are going to have a debate on the Internet with one person, Moran, and
>> then have them do a critique and we can review all the responses out
>> here.
>
>Happily. Once the class gets rolling, I will invite students who are
>interested in commenting on the discussions in alt.revisionism to do so
>here as extra credit. (It's rather outside the scope of the class's main
>goals, although I suppose it could work for the unit on linguistic
>ethnography...)

	You mean your going to wise them up to alt.revisionism and have
them monitor the situation? Good work. Maybe they can participate.


>>>>Posted and E-mailed.  Followups to alt.revisionism, please.  E-mailed 
>replies to this message will be posted to Usenet unless otherwise 
>requested by sender<<<
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)   
>
>"The level of discourse in campaigns is so low, we really may 
>as well get in a tub of Jello and wrestle."
>   --Rep. Patricia Schroeder, on Comedy Central's "Politically Incorrect"
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 07:29:43 PDT 1996
Article: 62554 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Christian Revisionism Okay but for the Holocaust, "Hate"
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:40:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <322d76e6.520963@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-3.pacificnet.net
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	For the last two years there has been considerable commentary
appearing in main stream medias such as the L.A.Times, N.Y.Times,
Newsweek and Time Magazines on the validity of the most central points
of Christianity.

	Did Christ do this - did Christ really do that? Was Christ really
the son of god?

	I don't know if there have been scores of websites out here, or
hundreds of newspaper articles, letters to the editors, columns, full
page ads and books condemning this growing revisionist trend towards
Christianity as hateful, but I do know there have been all these media
formats used extensively to denounce any and all who question the
Holocaust as purveyors of "HATE" who are "NEO-NAZIS" and "RACIST" 

	Often accompanying or included in the extensive obvious
conspiracy to brand Holocaust revisionist as racist, neo-Nazi haters
are calls for special censorship against Holocaust revisionism.

	Little groups running here and there, 'stamping down their feet'
in demonstration of righteousness, mass phone call campaigns and bomb
threats is how those who are so dependent on the Holocaust story go
about it.

	"Hate", Hate", Hate" is their battle cry.


	Christian revisionism is something that questions that which is
dear to the hearts of hundreds of millions, something fundamentally,
inheritably central to human beings, religion.

	Holocaust revisionism questions the accuracy of a historical
event.

	The Christians seem to be able to take it with a certain grace. 

	For those who are dependent on the Holocaust story, it's "Hate",
"neo-Nazi", "Racist" - "anti-Semitism".
 	 	 	       
	There is something really different between reactions.
	
	Something disproportionate.
     
	Something quite unaesthetic.

	Something ugly.

	Something weak.	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 07:29:44 PDT 1996
Article: 62592 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:54:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <322edb8c.406609@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <3SEP199620370455@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322d7d1a.2108680@news.pacificnet.net> <322DFB40.3577@unb.ca>
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>> >    So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go 
>> >    fishing?  
>> >
>> >                         daniel david mittleman
>> 
>>         No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
>> right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
>> come out and say it, "Like a 'man'".
>
>This boy is truly sad.
>
>Tell you what, Moran, go ask your friend Giwer.  He likes Python.  He'll
>explain it to you.

	Why don't you just tell me.


>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 10:02:09 PDT 1996
Article: 139417 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 10:02:11 PDT 1996
Article: 139948 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 10:20:48 PDT 1996
Article: 62606 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:40:39 GMT
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				The best of Sara Schwartz	

	Here are some of her more notable posted responses. As you will
see there is no reason to include whatever she is responding to.
                ---------------------------------

Oh THAT'S rich!
 
You bet, we Jews have nothing better to do than chase after a bunch of
idiot-boys like you.
 
Well, gee... I thought we were too busy running the world!
 
Don't flatter yourself, Skippy. We couldn't give a rat's ass about
you.
You use an anon handle because you're a chickenshit. Blaming it on the
Jews just makes you look MORE stupid, if that's possible.
 
Sara
-----


I can't decide which of these two lunatics deserves netkook of the
Year.
 
Perhaps it's a tie?
 
Sara
-----


Once again, Mr. Giwer's fingers are moving faster than his brain.
 
I have no idea what the first sentence here means.
 
Is this Mr. Giwer's new tack? To write such complete nonsense that one
cannot intelligently refure it?
 
Holocaust, BTW, does not mean "so much." it has a very simple
definition
in MY dictionary.
 
Perhaps Mr. Giwer ought to try reading one.
 
Sara
-----


Hey wait a minute, Mr. Fischer!
 
No one here just GIVES out promotions. If you think Mr. Anderson
deserves
a promotion, you'll have to go through the regular ZOG channels, just
like
the rest of us!
 
Sara
Chairman, Passover Blood Sacrifice, 1995
-----


Once again, Mr. Moron is responding to his own posts. What is the
sound of one Moron writing?
 
Sara
-----


Mr. Moron, just because you can't figure out how to print out a web
page
does not mean it cannot be done.
 
It just means you're a moron.
 
And what is an "unkown" format?
 
Sara
-----


First Mr. Moron whines that Dr. Keren does not supply locations.
 
Then he complains when Dr. Keren *DOES* supply locations.
 
Make up your mind, Mr. Moron, what there is of it.
 
Sara
-----


DEFINITION PLEASE: Achilles heal.
 
I'm down with the flu, and not up to attempting this one.
 
Sara
-----

 
Mr. Moron:
 
When did DOCTOR Keren give you permission to speak for him?
 
It's one more example of why no one should put ANY stock in ANYthing
you say.
 
You're a bigger idiot than I thought, and completely devoid of humor
besides.
 
Sara
-----

Probably because you're a lying troll and Dr. Keren has better things
to
do with his time.
 
Mayve if YOU answered some of the questions put to YOU, Mr. Giwer,
others
might be more willing to answer YOUR questions.
 
Like... Where was the Cambodian Embassy in Washington during the
Vietnam War?
 
Sara
-----


Spam.
 
AND waste of bandwidth.
 
AND repetitive. Redundant. Already said.

AND boring.
 
Get off it, Mr. Giwer. You can post Mr. McVay's address until you're
blue
in the face, but the fact is:
NO ONE CARES.
 
Sara
-----

> >         The answer should be logically apparent. If no Holocaust, then
> > the Jews of the story never where in the first place.

Please tell tham to ME and MY family, Mr. Moron.
 
Tell me my relatives, of whom I have a number of photographs, did not
exist.
 
Please. Tell me.
 
Sara
-----


Fairly clear is it?
 
Not to anyone but YOU, Skippy.
 
Sara
-----


Well, Mr. Moran, let's consider for a moment the wit and wisdom [sic]
of your Mr. Giwer:

Sara
-----


Nice to see Mr. "joebuck" maintaining his high standards of debate.
 
Sara
-----


And in alt.revisionism, it is Moron who does 33% of the raving. The
other
67% is divided between Messers Giwer and "Stele."
 
Sara
-----


What "league" is that. Mr. Moron?
 
FLASH! "Jews" are not a block. They are individuals. Some jews may
hate Catholics, just as some morons hate everyone.
 
Sara
-----


Only if they are photographs of the annual Passover blood sacrifice.
 
Sara
-----


I thought we were discussing revisionism, not science fiction.
 
Sara
-----


Really? What destructive measures have the JDL taken here in America
that equal or surpass the henious church-burners?
 
How many places are the JDL holed up, in armed defiance of the US
Government?
 
I am NOT defending the JDL, by the way, merely wondering about your
rather
bizarre assertions.

Sara 
-----

Poor Mr. Moran. He has no one to bait anymore, and so is now debating
with himself.
 
"Oh, it's lonely at the bottom" (with apologies to Randy Newman)
 
Sara
-----


Moran, you moron, you don't even know how to make racist remarks
without
misspelling them.
 
The slur is Paddy, not Patty.
 
I don't think Mel Brooks looks ANYTHING like a Patty, especially when
he
has a 5 o'clock shadow.
 
RuPaul, maybe, but not Patty.
 
Sara
-----


Mr. Giwer:
 
I finally understand where you learned your debating techniques!
 
They're exactly the same as those employed by my 4-year-old.
 
I believe Pee Wee Herman said it best: "I know you are, but what am
I?"
 
Pathetic. Not a flame, simply a fact.
Pathetic.
 
Sara
-----


Cut the wood? You had something to cut the wood? You were lucky.
 
We had to gnaw the trees with our teeth.

Sara
-----


Especially stupid, since "goyem" IS plural and therefore does NOT
reuires
an additional "s." There is no such thing as goyems.
 
Perhaps, Alec, Moron meant "golems," which could certainly be used to
describe him and his cronies, yes?
 
Sara
-----



Sorry, don't know any Sarah. You must be reading posts from soneone
else.
 
By the way, why are you hiding behind an anon handle? What are you
afraid of?
 
Sara
-----





From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 10:20:48 PDT 1996
Article: 62616 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:24:49 GMT
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Lines: 53
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   Alexander Baron  writes:
>>  In article <322b1602.11258361@news.pacificnet.net>
>>             tm@pacificnet.net "tom moran" writes:
>>  
>>  > Mr.Edeiken, claimed he
>>  > had lost 160 relatives in the Holocaust and Moran challenged him.
>>  > Mr.Edeiken said he was going to post the proof, "I will this weekend".
>>  > Nothing ever came of it.
>  
>>  To lose one relative is unfortunate. To lose 160 is careless.
>>  Actually, this is one of the biggest Exterminationist tricks. They make outrageous
>>  claims, lies, say they will back them up, then don't. For the obvious reason.
>>  Does anyone remember the thread about the photograph of the gas chamber 
>that 
>>  was supposed to exist in action? This is mentioned by Reitlinger. Then there are
>>  the documents which are supposed to refer to extermination. They are all 
>>  quietly forgotten now.
>
>	The claim is neither false nor outrageous, you anti-Semitic chuck of 
>human excrement.  Moran lied and you, like the gullbile asshole you are bought it 
>hook, line, and sinker.  What Moranleft out was that the offer was withdrawn after 
>Moran announced what "fun" it would be to examine the list.
>
>	The point is a simple one.  That many members of my extended family (I 
>included those related by marriage) were murdered.
>
>	Can they be named?
>
>	A piece of cake.  But pay for the privilege, Lyin' Al.  Propose a wager on 
>it. $100.00 a name would be about right.  Care to put your money up?
>
>	--YFE

	Baron, Mr.Edeiken wants to make a bet. He says he will present
them for 100 dollars a name. Anyone can write names. Tell him you'll
take the bet if he can include convincing documentation that each name
was his relative, that they were exterminated in German camps. 

	We shouldn't forget he said he was going to do it before, 'I will
this weekend" and then after being challenged more months down the
road he submitted an "retraction".

	He's trying to bluff, with the 100 dollars trick. He has nothing.
He's a liar. A little boy. He's thoroughly corrupt. 

	Tell him to go by the rules for submitting evidence according to
U.S. criteria. He says he's a lawyer, so we should expect he know
whats up.

	Mr.Edeiken's claim to have lost 160 relatives in the Holocaust
exemplifies the general trend of Holocaust evidence. Lies.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 10:20:49 PDT 1996
Article: 62620 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:51:15 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
 

Three more names requesting to be put on the list of those endorsing
McVay's statement about Moran's sister.

>Those already signed on are:
>
>1. Chuck Ferree
>
>2. Joel Rosenberg
>
>3. Danny Mittleman
>
>4. Jamie McCarthy
>
>5. Keith Morrison
>
>6. Yale Edeiken
>
>7. Ken McVay, reiterating
>
8. Mike Curtis
>
9. Richard Graves
>
10. Mark VanAlstine
>
>11.
>
>12.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 10:20:50 PDT 1996
Article: 62621 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:54:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>: 
>: >    So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go 
>: >    fishing?  
>: >
>: >                         daniel david mittleman 
>: 
>: 	No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
>: right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
>: come out and say it, "Like a 'man'".
>
>Add Monty Python to the staggeringly long list of things about which
>Moran knows nothing.

	
	Evidently you think not knowing Monty Python is a sign of
negative intelligence. 

	Your posts, this being one of them, shows what happens when
someone thinks knowing Monty Python is fitting criteria for suitable
intelligence.

	

>Bill
>.
>.
>.
>
>.
>.
>.
>.
>..
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 10:20:51 PDT 1996
Article: 62622 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:37:30 GMT
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>
>>>    So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go 
>>>    fishing?  
>
>
>
>>	No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
>>right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
>>come out and say it, "Like a 'man'".
>
>
>I can't take it anymore.  I'm going to let the cat out of the bag.
>You asked what trolling is, Mr. Moran.  Mr. Mittleman is attempting
>to explain trolling to you by doing it.  And clearly his effort,
>transparent as it is to every reader but you, it seems, has been
>effective as a troll, but ineffective as an illustration to you
>of a troll.  Do you understand now?
>
>
>"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
>          Emma Goldman

	Laura, can I add your name to the list here?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 10:20:51 PDT 1996
Article: 62625 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT II - sign on here
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 16:08:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <322efa13.8222217@news.pacificnet.net>
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	Due to the tremendous popularity and endorsements for Ken McVay's
statement that Moran's sister is a "hooker", under Moran's posting
"SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here", this new opportunity is offered
for those fighting for the Holocaust and against hate.

==================================================================
Mr. Gryspan:

"Only a pedophilic rapist offspring of an incestuous pair of slugs
would consider that much evidence 'nothing else'.

Errrr - were your parents ever - nah, of course not!"
===================================================================


	DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR ONE OF THOSE
FIGHTING FOR THE HOLOCAUST AND AGAINST HATE. 

SIGN ON NOW.

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 12:14:19 PDT 1996
Article: 62638 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 14:27:50 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: 	Only McVay's lover could describe it that way.  It appears your really
>: do want to flaunt it.  Trying to make Alec jealous?  
>
>Oh, Kurt....
>
>Billy Goo Goo Ga Ga Anderson.
>.
>.
>.
>..
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 15:42:30 PDT 1996
Article: 62671 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:54:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <322edb97.418198@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3229c686.7920844@news.pacificnet.net>  <322af4e8.2784752@news.pacificnet.net> <50kmk1$3qm@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com>
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100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:
>You forgot some datas; the main is that liquid HCN will fast
>polymerize and for some other reasons will become quickly useless.
>Liquid HCN is hazardous, but unstable too.

	Evidently it was shipped to Degesch. Do you have the
polymerization times? Is it ten minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 weeks? 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 15:42:30 PDT 1996
Article: 62673 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Request For Information 
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:55:08 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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drobnicki@ycvax.york.cuny.edu wrote:
>	The claim that President Tudjman believes that only 
>900,000 Jews died in the Holocaust is without foundation, and 
>derives from a selective mistranslation of a section of the book 

	It would be interesting to see the original and the exact
translations, don't you think? All we have here is a statement talking
about all the translation. Do you think Tudjman offered up the
objection to the translation on his own, or did he catch some flack as
being an "anti-Semeite" first? It would be interesting to see how or
>from  where the "900,000" number was given in the book and how it was
mis-translated and how it was correctly translated.
	Did Tudjman write the number "900,000", and what did it apply to?

>..
>
>Marijan Gubic
>Information Office
>Ministry of Foreign Affairs
>Zagreb, Croatia
>==============================================================
>
>John Drobnicki
>Reference Librarian
>York College/CUNY
>"I speak for no one but myself."
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 15:42:31 PDT 1996
Article: 62675 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Can you question this answer?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:40:47 GMT
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Answer:
	Germany, France, England, Russia, Canada, United States and the
Christians, to name a few.

Question:
     _______________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________
____________________________________________________________________







From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 15:42:32 PDT 1996
Article: 62676 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:42:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
>
>> For somebody who hurls noxious allegations right and left with such 
>> carelessness, Tommy, you sure are a sensitive little tyke.  
>
>Especially considering he consorts with haberdashers.
>
>_Known_ haberdashers.
>
>Glass houses, that's what I say.

	Show it.

>It's all on the web.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
> Hate mail will be posted.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 15:42:32 PDT 1996
Article: 62682 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:10:04 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>>	Where did you say you 'teach'?	
>
>    In my first sentence up top.

	"MIS"?


>                         daniel david mittleman 



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep  5 15:42:33 PDT 1996
Article: 62693 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:42:37 GMT
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brucew@phoenix.net (Bruce Wedding) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	One way to get a grasp of where this "war" stands in the history
>>of U.S. wars, is that you never have, nor will you ever see a
>>Hollywood war movie about it, even from Hollywood.
>
>There already is a movie about it tom.  I can't recall the name, but
>it is the one starring Meg Ryan.
>
>Bruce

Really? If you recall the name, let me know. Thanks



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 07:24:12 PDT 1996
Article: 62805 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: uk.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:47:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <322d79e9.1291890@news.pacificnet.net>
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MCX  wrote:

>Duncan R. MacMillan wrote:
>> 
>>         How much is Saddam Hussein being paid to conduct his bomb-dropping
>> escapades at such a convenient time?
>> 
>> ---
>> D. MacMillan
>>              "Usenet Enquirer".
>
>
>It is amazing how during election years Saddam decides to raise hell. 
>You would think that some of the American sheeple would one day think
>for themselves.  Alas that day will not come until it is too late.
>
>
>mcx

	You mean Saddam only gets us once every four years? Not that bad.
Israel gets us everyday for about 25,000,000 dollars, considering
military and general aid to the Jewish state, 3,000,000,000 a year to
Egypt for their co-operation, our own military expenditures and money
we lose by boycotting the enemies of the Jewish state.

	We shouldn't forget about all the world prestige we lose, which
is getting more apparent every week. One month it's reported that
Turkey is going to allow Israel to fly training missions over their
mountains, the next week the deals off and Turkey is turning it's back
on the U.S. and making deals with Iran. Now they are burning American
flags. 
	This last time around, we couldn't even get Saudi Arabia to
co-operate much less France and the rest. France and the rest have
recently told us to get lost with our demands they boycott Iran,
another Jewish state enemy, one of which there are many.

	Not only can it be shown that nothing of any good, for the world
or the U.S has come of our support for the Jewish state, but in fact,
the only thing that could be shown is that it's been a disaster, for
the world, and the U.S.

	This is why the Jews try to stifle open discussion on Israel by
claiming "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism" and at times crying
"Holocaust". 

	Its a host/parasite situation, and we're the host.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 07:24:13 PDT 1996
Article: 62807 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: uk.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:41:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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"Duncan R. MacMillan"  wrote:

>	How much is Saddam Hussein being paid to conduct his bomb-dropping
>escapades at such a convenient time?
>
>
>---
>D. MacMillan
>             "Usenet Enquirer".


	Lets see, about two months ago Israel went into Lebanon, routed
hundreds of thousands of civilians with bombs, intentionally fired on
a refugee camp and not one politician said anything against it, in
fact the U.S. worked hard to coerce the U.N. into not sanctioning it,
yet here we are bombing Iraq, Israel's enemy for the same thing.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 07:24:14 PDT 1996
Article: 62858 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Are there any non-Jew-hating revisionists?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:45:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 36
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:
>
>: >A monk asked Un Mun, "What is Buddha?"          
>: >Un Mun replied, "Dry shit on a stick."           
>: 	
>: 	Buddist hater?
>
>Ah.  I see that Tommy doesn't know anything about Buddhism, either.
>
>How unexpected.

	I know this is not the essence of Buddhism. If I would quote
something about Buddha, it wouldn't be this.

	I know a story of a monk and a disciple on a journey, where one
night it gets cold and the monk tells the disciple to build a fire.
The disciple complains there is nothing to burn. The monk says, 
'What about that', pointing to a wooden Buddha they have with them.
The disciple wails, 'But it is the Buddha'. The monk says it it is
only an image, not the essence.


	The three great observations of Buddha and thus the tenet, The
idea of eternal and constant change, the process of yin yang (the
necessity of differentials) and the universe as a harmonious whole.

	Founded on observations as opposed to mythological theorizations.

	All supported by what we know from present day physics, unto the
cosmos. 

>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 07:24:14 PDT 1996
Article: 62860 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:22:15 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                  The best of Billy Anderson.

           'See a person's words, now his capacity.'
--------------------------------------------------------------


: 	I think the time is growing nigh for a "Best of Anderson".

Tom-boy, I would be honored.  You just don't know.

They won't even let me use the hot tub at ZOG headquarters until
you do a "Best of Anderson".

Bill
-----


	Yeah?  Well, I once heard Nikita Kruschev say "Bob Whitaker and
Tom 
Moran are Venusian Clone Robots introduced into Western Society by
Comintern in order to confuse the Running Dog Imperialists."

Boy, this quote-inventing game is fun!  Thanks, guys...

Bill
-----

Really?  Gee, I gotta call all my Jewish friends.  They're sitting
on a gold mine!

Tom, 'fess up--you can't really be as stupid as you pretend to be,
can you?

Can he?

Bill
-----


Really?  Huh.  I'll admit that Jews have a special interest in 
the Holocaust--just as, if 6 million half-wit buffoons were 
rounded up and murdered, Moran would have a special interest.
But "all by their lonesome"?  "No one else"?  Has Moran failed
to note the fact that many, if not most, of the regular anti-denier
posters on this group are not Jews at all, but rather insidious
wretched race traitors like myself?

Moran wrong again.  Hard to believe, huh?

Bill
-----


Yes, Li'l Tommy-- Danny teaches at MIS, which stands for "Miskatonic
Institute of Surreality."  They're summoning the Old Gods to help 
ZOG in it's campaign to undermine the Noble Aryan Race.

Wanna apply?

Bill
-----


We get paid according to the number of Aryan children we corrupt,
Tommy.
Payment is in Gold Bullion, dropped down our chimneys by Black
Helikopters.

Bill
-----


Damn it!  

Calling all ZOG agents--People's Hero Giwer has discoved that the 
American Arbitration Association is in on the Grand Unified 
Konspiracy.  Burn-bag all pertinent documents with extreme prejudice.

Bill Anderson
Coordinator, Committee on Coordination
Hibernian Occupation Government
--------------------------------


Add Monty Python to the staggeringly long list of things about which
Moran knows nothing.

Bill
-----


Oh, geez--just when I think I'm getting good at Moranian, something
like this pops up...

Sigh.

Okay--who's got that dictionary?

Bill
-----


Funny; I just pointed my rigii at the Nizkor site, opened the file
menu, clicked on print, and a nifty little printout popped out.

Of course, I have the Secret ZOG Decoder software...

Bill
-----


Uh...  I don't know, Tommy.  I suppose so, except that Hilary's is
a ring, and mine is software.  You do know the difference between
a ring and software, don't you, Tommy?

Bill
-----


Well, really, I do too.  It's a severe breach of nettiquette,
of course; everybody knows you're supposed to post German documents
in Lithuanian.

Bill
-----


Damn!  They're on to us again, guys--cheese it!

Bill Anderson
Third Sub-assistant to the Associate Director of Protocol
Hibernian Occupation Government
--------------------------------


Incredible.  He doesn't know what arbitration is.  

Moran, you must own a dictionary.  If you'd open it from time to time,
you wouldn't look like quite such an ass.

Bill
-----


Is that an admission of illiteracy, Tom?

Bill
-----


Make it stop.  Please.

Bill
-----


I don't know anyone named McFly, but if he can stop you and Tommy 
>from  gibbering inanely on my monitor, I will search for him with
great dilligence.  Really, Matt--if people want to read the kind
of trash you've been posting of late, they can delve into the 
K12 hierarchy.  You've dropped to Moran's level, and you continue
to plummet.  I realize Alec's arrival has been tough on you, but
do try to keep your end up just a bit, huh?

Bill
-----


hat in the name of God is this man talking about?  I thought I had
gotten pretty adept at Moranian, but this just boggles the mind.

Anybody?  Help!

Bill
-----


What in the name of God is an "afro-asian"?  Why are you
knuckledraggers
constantly inventing new terms for people you want to spit on?

Bill
-----


Hey, maybe he's really going to do this!  Damn--I knew I'd regret
my procrastination in helping out Nizkor.

Ken, if I promise to mark up some pages real soon, can I come to 
Florida with you guys and spend Matt's money?  Huh?  Can I?
Please?

Bill
-----







From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 10:59:49 PDT 1996
Article: 62945 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.fibr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:47:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <322d7a4d.1391744@news.pacificnet.net>
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Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>
>>         So it appears that the "core of the Jewish identity" has been
>> based on something that has been " incomprehensible", "not
>> understandable" and has put any listeners "totally at a loss" as to
>> what is being read.
>
>No, schmuck. The average Jew in North America does have a problem with
>the Haftorah, just as a lot of Xtians have a problem with the King James
>version of the bible.
>
>So?

	There's an angle. At least whatever the King James says, most can
understand it, verbatim like.

	I've met a number of people who say something about the King
James version but then none ever had any idea how any particular
version is put together, or where the versions differ.

	That's why I take the empirical route to comprehending the ways,
intentions and magnitude of the divinity.

	This haftarah has me interested. I think I will have to pick up a
copy of the pre-present version to see if it could be where chutzpa
originated. I'll have to get a copy of the new version, that has been
"re-interpreted" by one person to see what liberties he has taken. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 10:59:50 PDT 1996
Article: 62949 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: SHOES
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:36:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	L.A.Times, 9/5/96

'Shoes Used to Take a Stand Against Gun Violence'

	"The shoes of more than 500 murder victims were lined up along
the steps of a county building Wednesday, a grimm reminder of the gun
violence takes on Los Angeles residents every year.
	The shoes donated by the relatives and friends of the victims,
will be loaded onto a truck bound for Washington.
	Along with about 40,000 other pairs from murder victims across
the country, they will be displayed in Washington on Sept.30 to draw
attention to the staggering number of murder victims in the United
States.
	The project is an idea borrowed from the Holocaust Museum in
Washington ..."
                   --------------------------

   Of who or where the idea originated from, the article does not say.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 13:16:26 PDT 1996
Article: 62987 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!nntp.reed.edu!sun.lclark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:56:05 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	During the Gulf "war" there was a lot of crowing about how
>popular it was in America. The papers were claiming Bush was a shoe in
>for re-election.
>
>	Any support was called simply "Support the Troops", none of it
>focusing on any cause.
>
>	Even during the "Support the Troops" parade in Hollywood, the
>grand marshall made a point it wasn't to support the cause. (He
>probably caught some flack from the dominant influence there.)
>
>	At any demonstrations the standard ratio was less than a hundred
>for the war, and thousands against the war. The ones for it in L.A.
>were half JDL foaming at the mouth.
>
>	In the press, N.Y. and L.A. Times, there appeared 45 columns
>egging the country on to war. Of the 45, 42 were Jewish writers. Since
>then many goyims who used to write for Israel have backed off. Now it
>is almost only the Jews, all by their lonesome. 

	I recall seeing a documentary on TV concerning the "Gulf War". I
was surprised it was on since it presented a more or less negative
view. It had a lot of interviews with soldiers, including some from
France and England. They didn't seem too happy about being part of it.

	One way to get a grasp of where this "war" stands in the history
of U.S. wars, is that you never have, nor will you ever see a
Hollywood war movie about it, even from Hollywood.

	Do you ever see any glorification of the war now? 

	Where I live, I come into contact with people from all over the
world. I know from my own random discussions with a number of these
people that in their minds, Saddam Hussein is a hero.

	You just won't see the same kind of press in other countries
about Saddam Hussein like you see in the U.S. press that dances to the
Wicked Witch. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 13:16:29 PDT 1996
Article: 62990 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT II - sign on here
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:42:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Sorry for this early repost. It got wisk away from my screen during my
daily delete process. Any signing should be done in this post so I can
mediate or facilitate any who want to sign on. Thank You.
                        -----------------
                       
	Due to the tremendous popularity and endorsements for Ken McVay's
statement that Moran's sister is a "hooker", under Moran's posting
"SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here", this new opportunity to endorse
one fighting for the Holocaust and against hate is offered here.

==================================================================
Mr. Gryspan:

"Only a pedophilic rapist offspring of an incestuous pair of slugs
would consider that much evidence 'nothing else'.

Errrr - were your parents ever - nah, of course not!"
===================================================================


	DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR ONE OF THOSE
FIGHTING FOR THE HOLOCAUST AND AGAINST HATE. 

SIGN ON NOW.

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

6.

7.

8.

9.

10.

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 18:43:26 PDT 1996
Article: 63026 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 22:37:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <3230a5b1.3607089@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <841882418snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <50le04$d4e@news.enter.net> <841957187snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm11-26.pacificnet.net
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Alexander Baron  wrote:

>In article <50le04$d4e@news.enter.net> yawen@enter.net "Yale F. Edeiken" writes:
>
>>         The point is a simple one.  That many members of my extended family (I 
>> included those related by marriage) were murdered.
>> 
>>         Can they be named?
>> 
>>         A piece of cake.  But pay for the privilege, Lyin' Al.  Propose a wager
>>  on 
>> it. $100.00 a name would be about right.  Care to put your money up?
>
>It's ironic really, I've never believed all this crap about Jews and money,
>now you come along and prove me wrong. I wonder what the Chief Rabbi Emeritus
>would say; devout Jews are totally opposed to the squalid commercialising of
>the Holocaust. Better still, why don't you get together with Simon (I lost 77
>relatives) Wiesenthal and Clare (I lost 227 on my mother's side alone)? You could
>make a fortune.

	Who was or is Clare. I'm collecting Holocaust claims. Poor
Mr.Edeiken really claimed the 160 came from one side of his family
also. It was all brought on by a posting of an article in the
L.A.Times that reported some guy financing Zionist right wingers (As
if there is anything else) who said he had lost 120. As it stands,
with just the four people mentioned here, they lost a total of 584
relatives.
	But wait a minute. Since Mr.Edeiken had to "retract" his claim
under questioning and demands to prove it, we have only 424. Now if we
had the chance to confront the others, the answer would end up at 0.  


>The real point of your post and your simulated anger is to project moral outrage.
>This is a discussion group; if you want catharsis, join a drama class.
>
>
>-- 
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 18:43:26 PDT 1996
Article: 63027 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!gatech!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: L E M M I N G S
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 22:50:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <3230aa0e.4724209@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm11-26.pacificnet.net
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	Moran had posted "SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here". This is the
one where Moran made it easy for those showing support for Nizkor
"Director" Ken McVay's statement about Moran's sister being a
"hooker".

	One of the first to jump in was Mr.Mittleman, who seemed to be
asking for a little more clarification.

    "So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go  go fishing?  "

                         daniel david mittleman 


	Moran came back and ask Mr. Mittleman,

	"No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
come out and say it, 'Like a man'".

	So far Mr.Mittleman has not been able to muster up any "man" but
a number of his cohorts, in thinking, jumped in to make comment, with
the first being from a Mr.Anderson.
	Evidently he happened to be familiar with the "nudge nudge wink
wink" phrase that Mr.Mittleman used,

	"Add Monty Python to the staggeringly long list of things about
which Moran knows nothing."

Bill


	Moran found it amusing that Mr.Anderson should find knowing Monty
Pytnon phrases as, well ...;

	"Evidently you think not knowing Monty Python is a sign of
negative intelligence. 
	Your posts, this being one of them, shows what happens when
someone thinks knowing Monty Python is fitting criteria for suitable
intelligence."


	Soon enough a number of people jumped in to support Mr.Anderson's
indication that knowing Monty Python phrases are fitting criteria for
suitable intelligence.

Richard Graves, ardent Holocaust defender seemed to disagree with
Moran's notion.

	"Are you suggesting that it isn't?"

-rich


	Then we had another Holocaust supporter's opinion,

"This boy is truly sad. Tell you what, Moran, go ask your friend
Giwer.  He likes Python.  He'll explain it to you."

Keith Morrison 
	

	It, seeming that maybe Mr.Morrison knew what all the Monty Python
phrase was about, Moran ask Mr.Morrison,

	"Why don't you just tell me."

	Mr.Morrison replied,

	"Explaining it to someone who can't catch on...yet...would be
like trying to explain relativity to a brick wall."


	So, here we have this one fool coming out and claiming that
knowing some phrase from Monty Python is fitting criteria for quality
intelligence and a bunch of others jump in to express their support
for the criteria, one even equating Monty Python phrases with the
Theory of Relativity.

	Ah yes, when one Holocaust lemming goes over the cliff, as usual,
others follow.

 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep  6 18:43:27 PDT 1996
Article: 63029 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mem.bellsouth.net!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 22:45:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <3230a966.4556248@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <322ef64b.7254109@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>
>Three more names requesting to be put on the list of those endorsing
>McVay's statement about Moran's sister.
>
>>Those already signed on are:
>>
>>1. Chuck Ferree
>>
>>2. Joel Rosenberg
>>
>>3. Danny Mittleman
>>
>>4. Jamie McCarthy
>>
>>5. Keith Morrison
>>
>>6. Yale Edeiken
>>
>>7. Ken McVay, reiterating
>>
>8. Mike Curtis
>>
>9. Richard Graves
>>
>10. Mark VanAlstine
>>
11. Bob Beck
>>
>>12.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:49 PDT 1996
Article: 63056 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <32305aba.1653572@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <50j470$em6@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <50mf7s$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> 
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

	Aren't you going to sign on for endorsing McVay's statement about
Moran's sister?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:50 PDT 1996
Article: 63058 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: An Incredible Sequence
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 22:47:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <3230a972.4568661@news.pacificnet.net>
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9/3/96, under "Show your support - sign on here"

	 "Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg
complex, so we let him call himself 'the Director'".

                         daniel david mittleman

Moran: 9/4
	"We"?  Who is "we"?


9/4
	The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG for short).  I know we
exist, I even have the t-shirt to prove it!

    No, seriously, "we" would be all of the people loosely involved
with Nizkor (though I don't know why I am answering you seriously now
given my nothing else I have said in this thread is anything more than
a troll.)
                         daniel david mittleman  



9/4, Moran:
	"Loosely" involved? A little distancing? 

	How quickly this fool bumbles, stumbles and fumbles.

	A little mouse. 



9/4
	Bumbles. stumbles, and funbles?  You sure are getting desperate
is all you can do is pick up on the word "loosely."

    But it does merit a serious comment.  I intentionally went back
and added the word "loosely" to my post above after I wrote it.  I
added the word "loosely" because I am not comfortable including myself
in the same company as the "Nizkor Regulars".  Yes, I am distancing
myself, but no I am not ashamed or unadmiring of anything they are
doing.  I am distancing myself because I feel awkward considering
myself in the same group as them.

    Ken McVay, Jamie McCarthy, and Harry Mazal (among a few others)
put extraordinary time and energy into the organization and systems
management of Nizkor.  Mike Stein, Jamie McCarthy, Mark Van Alstine,
and Danny Keren (among others) have generated what I consider to be
excellent research to counter Holocaust deniers.

    Me?  I just write a few lame jokes and make lots of sarcastic
comments in alt.revisionism.

    So, when when I imply I am "loosely" involved it is out of no
sense of shame, only out of a sense of admiration.

    I hope this satisfies you, zeyde.

                         daniel david mittleman 
             ------------------------------------------


	When Moran tells Mr.Mittleman to dance, he dances. But then he
trips all over himself.

		


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:51 PDT 1996
Article: 63067 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!news.abs.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.slack,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany blocks access to XS4ALL
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <32305ab1.1644454@news.pacificnet.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.slack:48364 alt.revisionism:63067

modemac@tiac.net (Modemac) wrote:

>From: dst+@cs.cmu.edu (Dave Touretzky)
>Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
>Subject: Germany blocks access to XS4ALL
>Date: 5 Sep 1996 06:17:59 GMT
>Message-ID: <50lran$1gn@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
>
>The following message is forwarded from Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship
>mailing list.  Germany is moving to block access to XS4ALL because it
>doesn't like the politics of one of the web sites hosted there.
>
>================================================================
>
>Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh 
>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>Subject: Re: German Internet Censorhip: http://www.xs4all.nl

>(As background for more recent subscribers to fight-censorship, this isn't
>the first time the German government has tried this. A similar move came
>early this year when German prosecutors tried to cut connections to
>webcom.com in California, where some of Ernst Zundel's Nazi "Holocaust
>Revisionist" propaganda was hosted. I and a few other folks including Rich
>at Stanford and Blake at Penn held our noses and mirrored it around the
>country, prompting the Gemans to lift the ban. I had thought the German
>prosecutors smarter than to try this again. I guess I was wrong.)
              
	I'd be interested in seeing exactly what the "Nazi" material is
that you "held your noses to".

	I realize you are showing your concern for freedom of speech, I
just want to see if it's a feign to press an opinion under that guise.
 
                                                    Tom Moran


>My global Net-censorship roundup is at:
>
>  http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/
>
>-Declan
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>fight-censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fight-censorship/
>
>--
>                 Reverend Modemac (modemac@tiac.net)
>   First Online Church of "Bob"      "There is no black and white."
> PGP Key Fingerprint: 47 90 41 70 B4 5B 06 90 7B 38 4E 11 8A ED 80 DF
>               URL: http://www.tiac.net/users/modemac/
>   (FINGER modemac@sunspot.tiac.net for a FREE SubGenius Pamphlet!)
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:52 PDT 1996
Article: 63091 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Scholar Well Recieved in Berlin
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:34:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <32303433.1567449@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	L.A.Times, 9/6/96

	"Holocaust Scholar Well Relieved in Berlin"

"WW II: Controversial
author whose book indicts
'ordinary Germans' over 
Nazi atrocities is cheered
in face-off with critics.

	Berlin -- The controversial U.S. scholar who has out raged
critics by calling the Holocaust a embraced 'German national project'
was embraced by a standing room only ...
	Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, a 37 year old Harvard University
political scientist ...
	The book triggered an international debate when it appeared in
English earlier this year, with critics complaining that Goldhagen had
conducted his research unscientifically, left out important areas of
inquiry ...
	But in Berlin on Thursday, when Goldhagen faced off with three
German critics, the audience, which included Jews and non-Jews,
appeared eager to support the embattled author.
	'Good, he is correct!' gushed an elderly woman, a Lithuanian
concentration survivor would identify herself only as Mrs.Katz ...
	Ordinary Germans 'knew exactly what they were doing' ...she said.
...
	Although there was almost no publicity for the panel discussion,
the 'Jewish Community of Berlin', had to turn away spectators.
	At times, as the three German scholars tried to explain what they
saw as the failures of Goldhagen's work, the session took on the tone
of a personal attack, and members of the audience rushed to take
sides.
	Listeners gave their worst drubbing to Hans Mommsen, one of the
most well-published and widely cited Third Reich scholars in Germany.
....
	'Let me ask: Does anyone here, other than professor Mommsen,
think that the people who were slaughtering the Jews weren't aware of
what they were doing?' demanded Goldhagen, and the groans turned into
laughter and more applause. No one in the room raised their hand."
                  -------------------------------

	So was he "Well Received"? Seems so. But only at the facilities
of the "Jewish Community of Berlin". 
	How many people were there? The article doesn't say. "Standing
room only"? Evidently only room full.
	How many of the "Jews and non-Jews" were Jews, and how many were
goyims? The article does not say.
	"Almost no publicity" for the Goldhagen visit? Why not?

	So it seems Goldhagen was "well received", but only by a few, and
at a Jewish facility.

	Holocaust revisionism coming to Germany by popular demand in the
future? We can wait and see. 	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:53 PDT 1996
Article: 63103 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can you question this answer?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <32305ab5.1648079@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322d78c6.1001502@news.pacificnet.net> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
> 
># Answer:
>#
># Germany, France, England, Russia, Canada, United States and the
># Christians, to name a few.
>#
># Question:

>Gee, zeyde, I'm not sure...

>How 'bout "what do the evil Jooooooos control?". Is this what you
>meant, zeyde?

>-Danny Keren.

	No.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:53 PDT 1996
Article: 63104 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <32305abd.1656043@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <322ef64b.7254109@news.pacificnet.net> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
># Three more names requesting to be put on the list of
># those endorsing McVay's statement about Moran's sister.
>
>What is all this about, Tommy?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	
Why don't you read the lead article to find out? Then sign on.

Don't miss this chance to support your allies in the fight against
Holocaust doubters and haters.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:54 PDT 1996
Article: 63105 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The importance of being "anti-semitic"
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:19:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <32305cf6.2225176@news.pacificnet.net>
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>Kurt Stele (kurtstele@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: One can criticize disparage Whites all day long and discuss "the evil of
>: white racism" and "indian killing" and make movies about it. 
>: 
>: But when when one criticizes the jewish butchery of civilians at Qana, 
>
>Well, if one calls it a "Jewish butchery," yeah, there's going to be some
>adverse reaction.  Myself, I've criticized the Israel action at Qana, and
>at Sabra and Shatilla, and in expanding the settlements on the West Bank
>and any number of other things, many times.  In public.  Often with Jewish
>people standing right there.
>
>Guess what?  I've never been called antisemitic.  Wonder what the difference
>between me and you is, Kurt?

	"Many times" - "in public"? Bull. 

>Bill
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:55 PDT 1996
Article: 63110 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can you question this answer?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:49:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <323039d9.3013569@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322d78c6.1001502@news.pacificnet.net> <322F62C8.2ED2@unb.ca>
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>tom "I'll take stupid questions for $100, Alex" moran wrote:
>
>> Answer:
>>         Germany, France, England, Russia, Canada, United States and the
>> Christians, to name a few.
>> 
>> Question:
>>      _______________________________________________________________
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>
>What are the names of 4 European countries, 2 North American countries
>and the major religion practiced in them?

	Nope.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:56 PDT 1996
Article: 63111 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can you question this answer?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:48:35 GMT
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <322d78c6.1001502@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>                 
>> 
>> Answer:
>>         Germany, France, England, Russia, Canada, United States and the
>> Christians, to name a few.
>
>What are all the countries who recognize the horror of the Holocaust, in
>which your beady eyed little love hero, impotent though he was,
>perpetrated the systematic extermination of more than 6 million people,
>including Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and political prisoners. Well, that
>is, all countries except for Christians, which according to Big Bird is
>one of those things that doesn't belong.

	Nope.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:57 PDT 1996
Article: 63114 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Desert Ostrich
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 22:44:33 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>        Then there is the "Desert Eagle". This is a semi-automatic hand
>gun that can come in a .357 model or 44 caliber.  

God, even when you say something true by accident, you leave something
out -- it also comes in .41 and .50AE.  And probably something else,
by now; it's pretty popular, and they've had to some up with several
models. 

>Therefore, in
>relation to a size/caliber ratio, such as exemplified in comparing a
>22 caliber to a 9mm semi-automatic, everything must be proportionally
>larger, the hand grip, the frame and the barrel. This makes it so big
>and cumbersome that it would only suit some species that may be from
>the Land Of The Giants, Goliath's homeland, and not suitable for real
>human beings.

"I have smaller than normal hands, and find its size perfectly
comfortable.  Not the weight, though; it is a heavy thing . . .

I take it you don't know much about guns?"

Moran:
	Joels first sign of concluding something that makes him feel
good. 

>        Because of its disproportionate unwieldy size in relation to the
>average human physique the gun is not any good for serious competition
>shooting, nor is any good as a personal carry weapon, home protection
>weapon, or for any police or military applications.

It's actually particularly good for certain kinds of competition
shooting -- the steel plate stuff -- so I'm told.  But no, it's not a
particularly good choice as a carry weapon (too heavy) or home
protection weapon (actually, it wouldn't be bad in that role -- the
weight doesn't matter much in that context, and neither does it being
single-action -- it's just that there's better choices), or police or
military weapon.  

	AS he goes along he has to agree.


Then again, neither is the Ruger Mark II that I actually used as a
home protection weapon some years ago.  I'd have much rather had a
Desert Eagle in my hands, even though I never did need to fire a shot.

	He singles out a single model as something he doesn't like to
compare.

>        It is for the very most part just an implement of bravado.

"Depends.  Certainly it's not my first choice for a defensive handgun
-- but that's not what it's designed for.

So, Tommy, you got a point?  Other than that you don't know much about
guns.  Either." 
                  ---------------------------

	So here is Rosenberg saying it again, "you don't know much about
guns", making himself happy.
	The fact is, everything I said about it, Rosenberg has had to
concede along the way as he tried to divert.
	The fact is I'm the one who put it out here. So at least I have
enough savvy to recognize the Desert Ostrich.
	Poor Rosenberg. He can't help himself. He has stated, "but that's
not what it's designed for" and now it's time for him to come out and
state what is designed for.

	Show your gun savvy.
	---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 09:23:58 PDT 1996
Article: 63123 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960906: Since Galileo's time . . .
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 22:44:51 GMT
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zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

	In spite of all the talk about the persecution of Galileo, he and
his predecessors came from with in the religion's energy. The Vatican
eventually was the one that sent Johann Kepler off to see Tycho Brahe.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 18:07:16 PDT 1996
Article: 63257 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:08:59 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Matt, you don't even read this stuff, do you?  Every holohugger
on
this list has BEGGED you to include him or her in the "lawsuit against
Nizkor."  I'm begging you right now--please, please, please include
me in the lawsuit against Nizkor.  I haven't done any work for them,
but if you'll promise to include me in the "lawsuit," I'll pony up
some pages immediately.

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 18:07:17 PDT 1996
Article: 63299 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Incredible Sequence
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:19:37 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>
>    I am quite comfortable with everything I said above, zeyde (short of a
>    couple of typos.)  I stand by my statements -- even my humor.

	Is this one of the things you said above?

     "Me?  I just write a few lame jokes and make lots of sarcastic
comments in alt.revisionism."

	I take note of the word "lame".

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 18:07:18 PDT 1996
Article: 63300 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: They took my spoon.
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:00:42 GMT
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	    "Proof of Suffering Is Price of Holocaust Repartition"
                     L.A. Times, June 4, 1996

(Sub header)
"Soviet Jews: Survivors tell of indelible horrors. But for many,
documenting them to qualify for aid is impossible." 

	"One can still hear the smack of the scythe smashing against her
head. Denting her skull ..." How much is that bitter taste worth?
..One can still feel the panic that swamped him as he stood in line,
waiting for the killers to get to his row. ...
	How much?
	How to quantify the indescribable? How to calculate the
unimaginable?
	How to compensate victims for the horrors of the Holocaust?
	Fifty-one years after Nazi Germany crumbled, those questions
haunt a dwindling group of Holocaust survivors.
	Most of their fellow survivors have long since received some
compensation -- not enough to erase their torment, of course, but
enough to cushion them through old age. The German government has paid
more than $60 billion to victims of the Nazis since WW II, and is
paying more than 130,000 survivors lifetime pensions--a commitment
that will cost another %20 billion over the next few decades.
	...
	...More than 90,000 Soviet emigrants world wide have applied for
this last chance to receive German pensions.
	...
	Perhaps the toughest requirement demands that survivors prove
their persecution with official documents--not eyewitness
testimony--before receiving pensions.
	When the Nazis stormed through a huge swath of Soviet territory
.. they left behind detailed but disorganized records, said Radu
Iaonid, director of the registry of survivors at the Holocaust
Memorial Museum in Washington.
	The conquering soldiers might, for example, have jotted down that
they confiscated two silver teaspoons from Jew X ...
	....
	These days, negotiations have only gotten harder Jewish leaders
say. Memories of the war have faded. And Germany struggles with a
shaky economy, a disgruntled work force and unpopular cuts in social
programs. 
	...
	'The claims Conference' ... is not giving up'" 

                           ____________

	In a accompanying photograph is a Si Frumkin standing tough and
holding up his Star of David from his chain, a person who has had at
least 20 letters to the editor of the L.A. Times published, most often
justifying anything Zionist.

	The number of existing Jewish survivors is put at 130,000 which
is what remains of the "dwindling amount". Maybe we could say this is
less than half of those who said they were survivors. After all it is
50 years later and many of those must have died which would put the
number of survivors originally at over 260,000. Adding this to the
90,000 now applying we have 350,000.
	What constitutes a "survivor"? Well going by this report, anyone
having so much as a spoon confiscated is a surviving victim.
	Special note should be taken that the criteria for applying for
the money is not to be founded on "eyewitness testimony."
	It seems the German government is getting sick and tired of the
demands. And the "disgruntled" work force is not in any mood to have
their funds given over to some phony cause.
	Could it be the Jews will drive the population of Germany into
the revisionist energy? Could be. The Jews seem to always drive their
demands to a intolerable saturation point.
                             ____________	


	The focus of this article is on the Jews who have emigrated out
of the Soviet Union in the last few years. This all started after the
Jews began to assert wide scale "anti-Semitism" in that country. Of
the twelve major profiles done on individuals, not one account was
offered as to any incident they suffered, instead focusing on how
brilliant they are. As to the general accounts of the alleged
persecution, not one single account. 
	The whole thing with the flare up of the Soviet persecution began
after a number of articles, letters and columns complained of the Jews
being out populated by Arab birth rate in Israel proper.
	The whole thing was a lie.
	Hundreds of thousands of these Soviet Jewish emigres came to the
U.S. where they are now collecting U.S. pensions and saturating
convalescent facilities. 
	In a recent article in the Santa Monica daily newspaper, Outlook,
it went on about the 600 dollars a month the local population of
Soviet Jews is receiving was a hardship and not enough. The article
cited that 500 of them in the town were receiving this amount. 
	Santa Monica is a town that has hundreds of unemployed homeless
crouching for shelter in all sorts of nooks and crannies. Most of them
have to go through hell to get even a few dollars.
	The U.S. at one time refused special trading status to the 
Soviet Union founded on the allegations of anti-Semitism. While we
boycotted this nation on the grounds of the lie other nations moved in
to do trade that was denied America, the same thing that happens when
we boycott other Zionist enemies.
	Billions upon billions upon billions of the peoples hard earned
tax dollars going over this. America - Germany, nations of slaves to
lies.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 18:07:19 PDT 1996
Article: 63301 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor/Wiesenthal
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:01:19 GMT
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	Simon Wiesenthal says the reason the numbers at Auschwitz were
inflated by 3 million is because of intentional shenanigans on the
part of the Russians and Poles.
	Nizkor says it was the "4 million variant", a mistake the
Russians made in figuring the crematoria rates.
	Wiesenthal says it was intentional.
	Nizkor says it was a mistake.
	Of course there are plenty of examples of wild rumors and even
more exaggerated numbers being thrown around before the end of the
war, and that is where it all started. The Russians going into the
camp and getting some eyewitness testimony that mirrored these rumors,
the end of a long and arduous war and the stage was set. Find the
first examples of rumors and go from there. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 18:36:58 PDT 1996
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 18:36:59 PDT 1996
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep  7 19:35:15 PDT 1996
Article: 63318 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Burmeister Testifies About Chelmno Death Camp
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:38 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220]
------------------------------------------------------------
As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started
arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries... The people were
told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be
disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand
to be registered...

When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and
then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the
gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked "to the baths". The gas
vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2
meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the
floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening
which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal
pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the
back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the
van...

The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right
away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the
exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the
exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was
driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the
early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later
incinerated... I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it
there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that
had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing...

I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of
anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too
influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have
carried out the orders I had been given.
======================================================================

	Was he ask by the inquiring parties to take them to the scene of
the unloading, as we would expect the police would, if they had a
confessing mass murderer? Do they ask any of the testifiers? Evidently
not, since no mass graves or forensic tests have been reported on in
the Holocaust list of evidence.

	In this case the scene is "the camp in the woods".

	In the beginning we have "as soon as the ramp was constructed"
and then suddenly in the short testimony, "in the early days".

	The last paragraph in the testimony is not testimony of
occurrences so therefore we must eliminate it from any consideration.
Nevertheless it does imply it is a culminating statement, which would
indicate the mere 3 paragraphs is the total testimony. Hardly
something we would encounter in  reviewing any other hearings or
proceedings.

	Are there any cross examinations, any inquiries for detail or
clarifications? As usual with Holocaust testimonies, there are none. 
========================================================================


	This is the partner post by Mr.Keren, the testimony of,

SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp 
[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant,
SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in
his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert
Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof
[Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the
plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated.  We were to
keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have
to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death penalty...

The extermination camp was made up of the so-called "castle" and the
camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the
edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had
been transported by lorry or railway were first brought...

When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando
addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2)
Untersturmfuehrer Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister
Willy Lenz from Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from
Wuerttenberg. They explained to the Jews that they would first of all
be given a bath and deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to
work. The Jews then went inside the castle. There they had to get
undressed. After this they were sent through a passage-way on to a
ramp to the castle yard where the so-called "gas-van" was parked. The
back door of the van would be open. The Jews were made to get inside
the van. This job was done by three Poles, who I believe were
sentenced to death. The Poles hit the Jews with whips if they did not
get into the gas vans fast enough. When all the Jews were inside the
door was bolted. The driver then switched on the engine, crawled under
the van and connected a pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the
van. The exhaust fumes now poured into the inside of the truck so that
the people inside were suffocated...


======================================================================

	I always find this "" note at the end of Mr.Keren's
eyewitness posts kind of interesting. Does this mean there is more?
One might think Mr.Keren would include at least a bit more. After all
he is an ardent Holocaust dependent, the Holocaust story is under
growing attack and one should expect anyone trying to sell people on
it would give it the most. We must assume this testimony given by
Mr.Keren is the all of what this person had to say, or all that
Mr.Keren finds to be relevent or sufficient as evidence.

	Any way, just dealing with what we have here, there are a number
of suspicions that could be raised.

	How is it the testifier knew where all the people came from?

	It also has the exact same phrase as the other one "the camp in
the woods"

	The other testimony says the Jews were taken to a cellar and then
onto a ramp into the vans. This testimony says they were led down a
corridor to a ramp. Whether the ramp led up or down, we can't say.

	Do they ask the witness to take them to the scene of the crime in
the woods? Is there any report about any of the witnesses being ask to
take them to the scene of the crime? No.

	Is there any inquiry from the investigating body for
clarification or detail. Seems not. Does the heading offered by
Mr.Keren say what kind of proceedings they were or by whom? No.

	The reason Holocaust testimony is so short and devoid of what we
should expect to find, and do in fact find in comparison to other
non-Holocaust testimonies, is because the more one says, the more the
opportunity for discrepancies. In spite of this, even within these
short little spurts presented to the group, many questions can be
raised. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:55 PDT 1996
Article: 63343 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Scholar Well Recieved in Berlin
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 00:37:09 GMT
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nobody@replay.com (Los Angeles Times Copyright Terrorist) wrote:

	Thanks for adding the part about it being number four on the
German best seller list. I meant to include that. All we have to do
now is wonder if they are buying it and swallowing it, or buying it
and getting aggrivated.

	I could have included the part about Mrs. Katz, the one and only
person quoted, not wanting to give her full or true name because she
was afraid she might lose buisness, which would show that the Germans
are not too happy about the book.

	The quotes at "Jewish Community of Berlin" were to make it clear
it wasn't just people, but a place.

	Everything else stands. Whether I included it or you have given
the whole. The headlines don't discribe the situation. Do they?

	He was basically well received by Jews, in a room and not by
banner waving throngs of Germans.
	
	The L.A.Times would have us believe it was a big endorsement, but
try as they did with the headlines it couldn't be squeezed out.  

	Stick around, you can be the my totalizer. How about the other
one under "SHOES"? That's an extract also. See if anything I left out
matters.  

	                                           Tom Moran



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:56 PDT 1996
Article: 63344 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:19 GMT
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rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck) wrote:

>Sure, sign me up. I mean, I've never met Ken McVay, but I like his 
>website. (He's obviously a good troll^H^H^H^H^H fisherman too, but living 
>in Nanaimo, he should be!)

>Bob Beck
>rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca

	I notice you have specified your a fan of Ken McVay and Nizkor in
stating you want to be put on the list. Notice there is a specific
statement involved here. Are you ware of that? Say 'Yes' and I'll put
you on the list, or you can do it yourself. Just use the list part so
as to spare the Internet resources. Thanks.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:57 PDT 1996
Article: 63360 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: And/Or Numbers
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:57:48 GMT
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	From Nizkor:

	

=====================================================================
              Numbers of Gassed Victims
=====================================================================

From: dzk@cs.brown.edu (Danny Keren)
Date: Wed, 13 May 1992

In article  gmartin@b-cpu.UUCP (George
Martin) writes:

>NONE were gassed to death.  Some were shot, but not in any number
>approaching "millions."

Wrong. Millions were gassed (either with carbon monoxide or with
hydrogen cyanide, released from "Zyklon-B"). Others were shot or
starved to death.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusions of the Anglo-American committee for studying the Nazi
genocide inflicted on the Jews of Europe, with exact breakdown,
country by country:

Numbers of missing Jews (post-war minus pre-war):

[Nizkor page]                  [Wiesenthal page]

Germany -        195,000			141,500		
Austria -        53,000			50,000
Czechoslovakia - 255,000			No listing
Denmark -        1,500			60
France -         140,000			77,320
Belgium -        57,000			28,000
Luxemburg -      3,000			1,950
Norway -         1,000			762
Holland -        120,000			No listing
Italy -          20,000			7,680
Jugoslavia -     64,000			63,000
Greece -         64,000			67,000
Bulgaria -       5,000			0--0.0%
Rumania -        530,000			287,000
Hungary -        200,000			569,000
Poland -         3,271,000		3,000,000
USSR -           1,050,000		1,100,000

Latvia		  No listing		71,000
Lithuania        No listing		143,000
Slovakia         No listing		71,000
Finland          No listing		7

The moon         No listing        No listing
Mars             No listing		No listing

 
Less dispersed refugees (308,000)

Total number of Jews that were exterminated = 5,721,500.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Some estimates are lower, some are higher, but this is the magnitude
in question. In a recent article in CMU's student newspaper, the head
of CMU's History Department, Peter Stearns, is quoted as saying that
newly discovered documents - especially in the former USSR - indicate
that the number of victims is higher than 6 million.

About 6 million non-Jewish civilians were killed by the Nazis - mostly
in Poland and Yugoslavia. Many of them died in labor camps inside
Germany.

-Danny Keren.



.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:58 PDT 1996
Article: 63361 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What about the other ashes?
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:02:42 GMT
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	All kinds of Holocaust tales exist about what was done with the
ashes of the cremated victims.
	They were buried, dumped in ponds and rivers, used to fertilize
Polish fields, used as insulation in the walls of camp buildings and
even scattered around the camp in winter to keep people from slipping
on the ice.

	But what about the other ashes? The ones from the firing chambers
of the crematoria? The ashes, and the clinkers, rock hard
conglomerates that weld together in the process of burning?

	If it took so many kilos of coke to burn one victim we should
assume there was considerable residue to dispose of.

	What happened to these other ashes?

	And, why didn't the Germans get rid of all the ashes at once,
commonly?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:59 PDT 1996
Article: 63375 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 'Show us the scene of the crime.'
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:50:19 GMT
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	The Holcoaust story has eyewitnesses galore. In fact, perhaps 99%
of the Holocaust evidence is eyewitness testimony. At Nuremberg, other
trials, in Extraordinary Commission reports made out at the time of
liberation of particular camps, testimonies of prisoners, civilians,
SS, and camp administrators - interogations and confessions - gas
chambers, huge cremation pits and mass graves, yet, not one of them
was ever ask by any of the investigationg bodies to, 'Show us the
scene of the crime'.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:01:59 PDT 1996
Article: 63376 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: TREBLINKA, there, gone, there again
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:55:05 GMT
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	For anyone who wants to check out what the Holocaust story has as
evidence for this camp being an extermination facility check out
Nizkor. (Nizkor > ftp > treblinka)
	Notice how they deny the evidence is not founded on "eyewitness"
testimony and then notice how most of their evidence is testimony and
quotes from books.
	Notice "treblinka 02." where it is quoted from the "Old Frogs
Almanac" - "When the Russians took over the Treblinka conmplex and the
nearly dead survivors ... there was no lack of physical evidence".
Notice under other clickables where it is said "The suffocated bodies
in recently arrived cattle cars ..." were there also.
	Yet the Holocaust story also has it that the camp was constructed
one year (1941-2), 2,000,000 people were exterminated the next years
(1942-3) and the next year it was plowed over and turned into a tree
farm (1943-4), and yetaccording to the above account, when the
Russians arrived a year after all this, it was still there, in full
bloom.  
	This exemplifies the typical nature of Holocaust evidence.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:02:00 PDT 1996
Article: 63380 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:00:19 GMT
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	In the Holocaust book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" we
are given a photo with the caption: "Arrival and selection of
Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, 1944. Credit: Yad Vashim, Jeruselem".
	The word "selection" is Holocaust vernacular is always used to
designate those who are selected to go to the gas chamber.

	This photo shows a couple of hundred people on a landing along
side of rail tracks in the Auschwitz camp, which are seperated into
men and women.

	We are to assume from the "selection" word that either all the
women are to go off to the gas chamber but not the men, or vice versa,
when in fact the camp was segregated into mens camp and womens camp.

	The ground level platform is only a couple of hundred yards
inside of the towered entrance to the camp which is distinctly seen in
the back ground. This would mean that the newly arrived prisoners were
not unloaded in the immediate area of Cremas II and III where the
tracks terminate within the camp, another 7 or 8 hundred yards on down
the track from this photo location.

	Contrary to Holocaust facts that say the procedure took place at
night, the photo shows these people unloaded in broad daylight.

	Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
another 60 or 70 feet away. This would mean that 12,000 people a day
were unloaded in clear view of the prisoners barracks contrary to
Holocaust facts that assert the whole operation was concealed from the
rest of the camp.

	This would mean that on an average, 12,000 people a day had to
march down the 6 to 7 hundred yards to the Cremas II and III areas,
past the rest of the camp, mens on one side and womens on the other.

	This would be day after day, week after week, month after month,
12,000 people a day would parade past the rest of the camp never to
show up as new prisoners. 

	Idiotic Holocaust facts have it that Treblinka was built out in a
obscure area so as to hide the mass extermination that is alleged to
have taken place there, yet after this one was destroyed the Germans
chose Auschwitz for the new exrtermination center, right there between
two Polish towns in a camp that had 100,000 prisoners and used 1000
civilian workers from these towns.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:02:01 PDT 1996
Article: 63386 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Crematorium Rates
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:05:08 GMT
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	Even though modern day cremation facilities take two and half
hours to cremate one body, the cremation ovens at Auschwitz, barely
the size of a regrigerator, could cremate up to three bodies in twenty
minutes, as the Holocaust story has it.

	At Majdanek, the victims arms and legs were cut off so they could
stuff in four bodies all at once in each oven and then it took only
about ten minutes to reduce them to charred bone.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:02:01 PDT 1996
Article: 63388 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "THE ZIONIST PAGE"
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:51:41 GMT
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	           Webcrawler > The Zionist Page

  A Star of David on one side, and an out line of Israel on the other.

	"Welcome to the Zionist page.
	While this site is still under construction, we invite you to
explore other sites that may be of interest.
	Leading the list is the Simon Wiesenthal Center ..."
	
					 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:02:02 PDT 1996
Article: 63391 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L E M M I N G S
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 12:50:46 GMT
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <3230aa0e.4724209@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>
>>    "So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go >wink> go fishing?  "
>
>>                         daniel david mittleman 
>
>
>>        Moran came back and ask Mr. Mittleman,
>
>>        "No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
>>right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
>>come out and say it, 'Like a man'".
>
>>        So far Mr.Mittleman has not been able to muster up any "man" but
>>a number of his cohorts, in thinking, jumped in to make comment, with
>>the first being from a Mr.Anderson.
>>        Evidently he happened to be familiar with the "nudge nudge wink
>>wink" phrase that Mr.Mittleman used,
>
>Most people I know are.   And while I'm not surprised by the breadth and depth 
>and height of your lack of knowledge, you miss the point.
>
>Again.
>
>Try it this way:  
>
>What's amusing is that you didn't realize that you 
>were having your leg pulled, and insisted on flaunting your credulity and 
>ignorance.
>
>As you continue to do.  

	When I pull someone's leg, I make sure it's not my own. It's not
me who is plugging it as a component of an IQ test. 

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:02:03 PDT 1996
Article: 63448 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tommy the Ostrich
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:49:52 GMT
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <3230a829.4239660@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>        Then there is the "Desert Eagle". This is a semi-automatic hand
>>>gun that can come in a .357 model or 44 caliber.  
>
>>God, even when you say something true by accident, you leave something
>>out -- it also comes in .41 and .50AE.  And probably something else,
>>by now; it's pretty popular, and they've had to some up with several
>>models. 
>
>>>Therefore, in
>>>relation to a size/caliber ratio, such as exemplified in comparing a
>>>22 caliber to a 9mm semi-automatic, everything must be proportionally
>>>larger, the hand grip, the frame and the barrel. This makes it so big
>>>and cumbersome that it would only suit some species that may be from
>>>the Land Of The Giants, Goliath's homeland, and not suitable for real
>>>human beings.
>
>>"I have smaller than normal hands, and find its size perfectly
>>comfortable.  Not the weight, though; it is a heavy thing . . .
>
>>I take it you don't know much about guns?"
>
>>Moran:
>>        Joels first sign of concluding something that makes him feel
>>good. 
>
>>>        Because of its disproportionate unwieldy size in relation to the
>>>average human physique the gun is not any good for serious competition
>>>shooting, nor is any good as a personal carry weapon, home protection
>>>weapon, or for any police or military applications.
>
>>It's actually particularly good for certain kinds of competition
>>shooting -- the steel plate stuff -- so I'm told.  But no, it's not a
>>particularly good choice as a carry weapon (too heavy) or home
>>protection weapon (actually, it wouldn't be bad in that role -- the
>>weight doesn't matter much in that context, and neither does it being
>>single-action -- it's just that there's better choices), or police or
>>military weapon.  
>
>>        AS he goes along he has to agree.
>
>No, I don't have to agree, Tommy -- but you're quite right, in the same way 
>that a stopped clock is right twice a day, every now and then, just by 
>accident.
>
>>Then again, neither is the Ruger Mark II that I actually used as a
>>home protection weapon some years ago.  I'd have much rather had a
>>Desert Eagle in my hands, even though I never did need to fire a shot.
>
>>        He singles out a single model as something he doesn't like to
>>compare.
>
>Could you phrase that sentence in conventional English and try it again?  I 
>think you're even more incoherent than usual, although not quite giwerian.  
>
>Work on it, boy, work on it.
>
>
>>>        It is for the very most part just an implement of bravado.
>
>>"Depends.  Certainly it's not my first choice for a defensive handgun
>>-- but that's not what it's designed for.
>
>>So, Tommy, you got a point?  Other than that you don't know much about
>>guns.  Either." 
>>                  ---------------------------
>
>>        So here is Rosenberg saying it again, "you don't know much about
>>guns", making himself happy.
>
>True enough.  You don't.  
>
>You left out at least two calibers that the gun is made manufactured in (and 
>said .357 and .44 "caliber" rather than the more accurate "Magnum" -- as 
>opposed to .38 Special and .44 Special, both of which can be fired from), 
>said that it wasn't useful for at least two things it's perfectly suitable 
>for:  competition and home protection, and you did all of that in support of 
>some silly point that even you can't quite pretend it substantiated.  
>
>(I'm told by the bowling pin folks that it's fine for that, too, by the way, 
>although I haven't ever seen that game played.)
>
>It's also big and mean-looking, and for a home defense handgun, that's a Very 
>Good Thing, in my opinion.   The majority of successful home gun defenses 
>don't result in a shot being fired, and my own guess is that a big, 
>scary-looking gun would be better at intimidating an intruder than a smaller 
>one. 
>
>Which is -- other than the fact that she likes it, and shoots well with it -- 
>my wife's handgun is a Taurus .357 Magnum (model 669 -- the one without the 
>vent rib), in chrome, with the six-inch barrel. 
>
>Now, if you want to talk about useful Israeli military weapons, you can start 
>with the Uzis and move on to the Galil, which many -- most? -- folks who know 
>anything about the subject think is one of the better weapons in its class, 
>particularly in non-Arctic climates.  
>
>But you don't want to talk about that.
>
>I guess we're not going to get to the Merkava tank, which is the most 
>survivable MBT around?  Or reactive armor?  
>
>Pity.

	I believe the sequence shows you to be trying to show that the
initial post was in err and along the way having to concede every one
of the points about the Desert Ostrich; not any good as a competition
target weapon, personal carry weapon, home protection weapon, or for
any police or military applications.

	I believe the last statement I gave to your long zig zag response
is that you had stated, "but that's not what it's designed for" and I
stated "now it's time for him to come out and state what is designed
for."

	As far as I can make out from your above zig zag is that it is
"scary looking". Is that your answer as to what it was designed for?

     Would this confirm my final statement in the initial post that
the Desert Ostrich is nothing more than an implement of bravado?


>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:02:04 PDT 1996
Article: 63450 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Haphazard state of affairs
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 15:23:11 GMT
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 From Nizkor posting,
 "Holocaust Almanac: Gas chambers with tilting floors ..." 

nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote:

>Archive/File: holocaust/poland/reinhard/sobibor sobibor.01
>Last-modified: 1995/08/18
>
>"The name Sobibor was not immediately minted into the vocabulary of the
>West, perhaps because by the time the record of the camp was exposed, the
>casualty figures of the war itself had become statistics and the capacity
>to respond to human suffering was blunted.<1>

	We can take note of "perhaps because" as a statement of personal
theory. The idea that it was not known because of war time
"statistics" and "capacity to respond" is ridiculous when in fact the
theatre was responding big time to alleged atrocities.  

>Yet Sobibor was one of the six largest extermination camps and matched
>Auschwitz and Treblinka, not only in its death toll, but in assembly-line
>techniques for extermination. The floors of Sobibor's gas chambers were
>constructed to tilt, like the body of a dump truck, so that stacks of
>corpses slid out smoothly.

	Tilting floor here but no where else. This would have been an
ideal design if it was true. If it was true, it would have been used
at other camps, like Auschwitz, but instead, at that camp, it is said
the Germans built at least two of their gas chambers underground,
requiring them to carry the bodies up a narrow stair case.
	The tilting floor design is the personal imagination of one (1)
of the testimonies.  

> Along with the usual barbed-wire enclosures,
>Sobibor was surrounded by a minefield and an adaptation of the water-filled
>medieval moat.

	Here is another extermination camp setup not done at other camps.
Does the Holocaust story carry any forensic, photographic evidence of
a moat? No. Would we expect there to be some evidence of this moat
today? Yes. Mine field? How come just here and not at any other
"Reinhard" camps?

> Hundreds of geese were kept in special quarters, not only to
>appear on the tables of the SS mess but also because their raucous cackling
>helped drown out the screams of the doomed inmates as they were killed in
>the gas chambers, an unusual inversion of the classic Roman defense which
>depended on geese, penned at the foot of fortified hills, to warn the
>populace when marauders threatened the city.

	The geese were kept around to "drown out the screams of the
doomed prisoners"? At Majdanek it was Jazz music, and at Treblinka, it
was nothing.

>It was at Sobibor that one of the most daring revolts flared, which again
>alerted the Nazis to the enormous danger the Jews represented once they had
>secured arms. Hoess of Auschwitz, in his prison autobiography, wrote that
>the escape and its cost to the Nazis left a trail of shame. `The Jews,' he
>noted, `were able by force to achieve a major breakout during which almost
>all the guard personnel were wiped out.' Himmler was so outraged by the
>`humiliation' that he ordered Sobibor to be destroyed and all evidence of
>its activity erased.<22>"

	Now this story makes it convenient for showing why there was or
are no signs of the camp. What logic would lead Himmler to order
tearing down the camp, filling in the moat, digging up the mine field
because of some alleged revolt?
	A big time successful revolt at a camp that had armed guards, a
moat and a minefield?

>	<22> Rudolf Hoess. Commandant of Auschwitz. p. 45, as cited in 
>	Sachar, Abram L. The Redemption of the Unwanted. (New York: St.
>	Martin's/Marek, 1983) 41-42
>
>< 1> Contrast this comment with Rashke's introduction ((Rashke, Richard. 
>Escape From Sobibor (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Company, 1982): "Almost
>everyone knows of Auschwitz and Dachau. But few people have ever heard about
>Sobibor, ... Why history has been so silent is no mystery.

>In 1945, the Allies captured a mountain of German documents, bequeathing to
>historians an incomparable war library. Among those millions of pages,
>however, were only three short documents about Sobibor, part of Heinrich
>Himmler's Operation Reinhard, the code name for three top secret death camps
>in eastern Poland.

	But what about Chelmno and Majdanek? How many "pages" did they
find on them? Does the author of this tell the reader what the three
pages on Sobibor say? Seems not.

>The death camps -- Sobibor, Belzec, and Treblinka -- were quite different
>from Dachau, a prison, and Auschwitz, a concentration camp with gas chambers
>for those too weak to work.

	Now here we have the author saying Auschwitz was a "concentration
camp" as opposed to his usage as to the others as "death camps". He
also implies that Auschwitz only engaged in killing the sick and the
weak, when in fact it is the center of focus, the hub of the Holocaust
propaganda onslaught today. 

> They were giant death machines. Every Jew sent
>there was to be gassed within twenty-four hours, with the exception of
>between a hundred and six hundred Jews chosen to maintain the camp. They,
>too, were destined to be killed when Operation Reinhard was completed, if
>they lasted that long."

	"Between a hundred" and/or six times that many? Anyway, here we
have it that those selected to be become sondercommandos were to stay
on until the end of "Operation Reinhard" whereas for other camps it is
said they were killed every two weeks to keep them from talking.

>Those wishing to examine English transcripts from the Memorial Book of
>Wlodowa will note many first-hand testimonies about the ghettos in the
>Wlodowa area, and the Sobibor camp. In particular, there are several files
>directly addressing the revolt and subsequent escape of some of the
>prisoners. 

	"Testimonies", period. Thank god for eyewitness accounts, or else
there would be nothing for the Holocaust story.

	The one thing that appears evident when reading all about these
different camp setups is that each one had its own widely different
designs and methods, hardly the image of something that was a master
plan coming from the high command.

	When reading about WW II in general, it becomes evident that the
Germans were meticulous planners, and yet when it comes to the
Holocaust story, the norm is broken.
 
	What it all suggest is that the reason all the camps dynamics
were entirely different from each other is because of individual
imaginary testimonies.

	Of the "millions" of documents mentioned above, there is not one
that can be shown that would show any directives coming from the high
command, or any where else, as to exterminantion camp master plans.
   
	No wonder there is so much energy put into trying to silence
Holocaust doubts.

>See ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/holocaust/poland/wlodawa for available material.
>
>Our Yad Vashem archives contain well-documented specifics relating to
>Operation Reinhard, and Sobibor. 
>
>See ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/israeli/yad-vashem for available files. 
>
>(Our research guide to Operation Reinhard is published every 45 days to 
>news.answers and elsewhere - it is also available from our ftp server.)
>--
>The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>                                          http://www.nizkor.org/
>                              Now offering the OSS Hitler Papers 
>    http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/oss-papers/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 08:02:05 PDT 1996
Article: 63454 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Desert Ostrich
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:52:41 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Response from Billy Anderson:

Tom, this may your oddest argument yet--the Holocaust never happened
because a gun you don't much care for is manufactured in Israel.

I confess, I don't have the smallest notion what you're talking
about...

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 11:00:37 PDT 1996
Article: 63512 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: So much for eyewitnesses.
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:09:32 GMT
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                          [repost]
	
	According to Franciszek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz Museum in
Poland, prisoner and SS eyewitness testimony is unreliable.
	In his "Number of Victims", Chapter 4 in "The Anatomy of the
Auschwitz Death Camp", he covers the course of events and
considerations involved in arriving at the revised Auschwitz figures. 
	It seems the revisers hold little esteem for any eyewitness
testimony, at least in regard to numbers, be it prisoner or SS
functionary, discounting it all in favor of deportation records from
various countries.
	In respect to the numbers, Piper referring to the deportation
records states, "Before these records were discovered, researchers had
to rely on discrepant and imprecise data from testimonies and
depositions from witnesses, former prisoners, and Nazi functionaries
and on court decisions and fragmentary and incomplete records of camp
registries, archives, and other institutions".
	Here Piper even includes "court decisions" as part of that which
is held in low esteem.
	He goes on to say the testimonies held "inevitable distortions
and were "marred by serious errors, discrepancies, and
contradictions".
	Among the few examples Piper identifies as perpetrating the
questionable testimony is the number one star witness for the
Holocaust story, Rudolph Ho'ss.
	Under a bold heading "Investigating and Prosecuting Agencies and
Tribunals" Piper does a quick run down on the erroneous findings of
these bodies and even does similar comment under "Scholarly
Publications".
	Piper comments along the way, "Yet several factors now prompt
historians to attempt to verify widely used figures, including the
scientific demand for objectivity in the study of Nazi crimes."
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 11:56:32 PDT 1996
Article: 63546 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Desert Ostrich
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:18:19 GMT
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	Re: response from one at the institute of Debra Lipstadt.

libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>Tom, this may your oddest argument yet--the Holocaust never happened
>because a gun you don't much care for is manufactured in Israel.

	These deniers are wierd, aren't they, William - they come up
with something that criticises something Israeli or Jewish* and have
hissy
fits whenever someone calls them anti-Semitic.

>I confess, I don't have the smallest notion what you're talking
>about...

	I think Tom's going to turn into another Giwer!

	Derek

* In the mind of a denier Israeli and Jewish are synonymous, which
isn't true.
-- 
Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW:
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 11:56:33 PDT 1996
Article: 63553 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Show us the scene of the crime.'
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:20:03 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  			
>>  	The Holcoaust story has eyewitnesses galore. In fact, perhaps 99%
>>  of the Holocaust evidence is eyewitness testimony. At Nuremberg, other
>>  trials, in Extraordinary Commission reports made out at the time of
>>  liberation of particular camps, testimonies of prisoners, civilians,
>>  SS, and camp administrators - interogations and confessions - gas
>>  chambers, huge cremation pits and mass graves, yet, not one of them
>>  was ever ask by any of the investigationg bodies to, 'Show us the
>>  scene of the crime'.
>
>	Tell your handler that he has made another factual error.  Several 
>requests were made by the prosecution, especially at the later trials, to have sitre 
>visits made to the KZ.  Objection to such visits were were made by the lawyers for 
>the *nazis.*  The objections were sustained.
>
>	The reason that no-one ever went to "the scene of the crime" is that 
>the perpetrators did not want anybody to go there.
>
>	--YFE

	Don't just say it, show it. Explicitly.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 11:56:34 PDT 1996
Article: 63556 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Are there any non-Jew-hating revisionists?
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:38:16 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <3232e48e.650751@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 
>> >In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
>wrote:
>> >
>> >> 
>> >> Tom Moran, Matt Giwer and Duncan Coons don't hate Jews one way or 
>> >> the other.  I'm not a revisionist or a Jew hater, I like the
>> >> Jewish religion, it's just their race leaves something that needs to be 
>> >> controlled for their own good.
>> >
>> >Tom "I can spot a Jew" Moran doesn't hate Jews?
>> 
>>         I notice you have put "I can spot a Jew" in quote marks.
>
>Congratulations, Mr. Moron!! You've learned the basic skills of observation.
> 
>So what?

	One should assume you have someplace you can point to from which
you took the quote?

>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 11:56:35 PDT 1996
Article: 63559 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Let us not overlook ...
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:55:56 GMT
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	Let us not overlook the fact that whenever Ken McVay, "Director"
of the anti-hate, pro-Holocaust website Nizkor, posts anything out
here, that he is representing all those that support or link his
website, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Anti-Defamation
League - generally, the interests of the whole world Jewish community.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 11:56:36 PDT 1996
Article: 63564 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Mass Murder In the Ukraine
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 15:38:26 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from Inspector of Armaments in the Ukraine to General of
>Infantry, Thomas, December 2 1941

	Not a sufficient source identification.

>[Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
>Off., 1946, Vol V, pages 994-997]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>The attitude of the Jewish population was anxious - obliging from
>the beginning. They tried to avoid everything that might displease
>the German administration. That they hated the German administration
>and the army inwardly goes without saying and cannot be surprising.
>However, there is no proof that Jewry as a whole or even to a
>greater part was implicated in acts of sabotage. Surely, there 
>were some terrorists or saboteurs among them just as among the
>Ukrainians. But it cannot be said that the Jews as such represented
>a danger to the German armed forces. The output produced by the
>Jews who, of course, were prompted by nothing but the feeling of 
>fear, was satisfactory to the troops and the German administration.

	When convenient, claim the Jews did nothing to warrant or justify
any of the alleged crimes committed against them by the Germans. But
at other times, as boasted in Holocaust books, they were the vanguards
of resistance. 

>The way these actions which included men and old men, women and
>children of all ages were carried out was horrible. The great masses
>executed make this action more gigantic than any similar measure
>taken so far in the Soviet Union. So far about 150,000 to
>200,000 Jews may have been executed in the part of the Ukraine 
>belonging to the Reichskommissariat [RK]; no consideration was given 
>to the interests of economy.

	Anywhere from "150,000 to 200,000 Jews may have been ...". By
killing all the Jews, the economy fell apart?

>Summarizing it can be said that the kind of solution of the Jewish
>problem applied in the Ukraine which obviously was based on the
>ideological theories as a matter of principle had the following
>results:
>
>a. Elimination of a part of partly superfluous eaters in the cities.
>
>b. Elimination of a part of the population which hated us
>   undoubtedly.
>
>c. Elimination of badly needed tradesmen who were in many instances
>   indispensable even in the interests of the armed forces.
>
>d. Consequences as to foreign policy - propaganda which are obvious.

	Suddenly, concern about image in foreign affairs?

>e. Bad effects on the troops which in any case get indirect contact
>   with the executions.

	But what about "Hitler's Willing Executioners".

>f. Brutalizing effect on the formations which carry out the 
>   executions-regular police-(Ordnungspolizei).

	Only a problem here and no where else? All the camps and field
executions?

>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 11:56:37 PDT 1996
Article: 63565 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:07:16 GMT
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	For the past 50 years the Holocaust in it's present form has
saturated the ethos of the world. As many have recognized, it has been
pressed merely on "eyewitness testimony", interpretation of documents
and attempts at blocking anyone questioning the particulars.

	Recently, over the last few years a dark and looming precidence,
for the story, has seeped into the process of validation.

	As Franciszek Piper, curator of the Auschwitz museum puts it,
"Yet several factors now prompt historians to attempt to verify widely
used figures, including the scientific demand for objectivity in the
study of Nazi crimes." One should take note of Piper's use of the word
"objectivity".  Meaning as opposed to the subjective approach.

	The Nuremburg Trials was an event that tried and hung men on the
accounts of eyewitness testimony without any forensic research at all
to determine if any physical evidence existed to support what was put
forth at the trials. Whatever is taking place now in regard to
forensic studies to determine the validity of the Holocaust should
have been done at the time.
	The overall conclusion from what is available today in regard to
seeking out physical evidence, is that if it was done at the time of
the Nuremburg Trials the Holocaust story would take up only a few
books instead of the thousands the unsubstantiated story has created,
and some men may not have been hung.		

	Perhaps the first forensic probe was done at Treblinka just after
the war in order to see if it could be verified that up to 2,000,000
were murdered, cremated and buried at that 40 acre site. The results
were next to nothing.

	Another similar probe was performed at Birkenau, with the results
being next to nothing. 

	Perhaps the first probes for physical evidence in regard to any
trial was the "Leuchter Report" considered by the Canadian government
in the trial of Ernst Zundel. This report dealt with a forensic
investigation of existing cyanide traces at Auschwitz today. His
report leads the viewer to believe there was no process of gassing at
the camp.

	Then there was a research probe at Auschwitz-Birkenau by the
Polish Government to undo the Leuchter report. The "Final Remarks" to
the report concluded next to nothing.

	Then there was a probe done in the Ukraine to uncover a grave in
order to use as evidence at a war crimes trial in Australia, where
they found around 700 bodies in two seperate sites. No conclusion was
made that the Germans were responsible.

	All this, regardless of any findings, is the forensic, scientific
approach to verifying Holocaust accounts.

	The precidence is expanding. Eventually people will be relying
more and more on concrete, objective evidence. Once this becomes the
recognized practice, only that which can be confirmed by the
scientific method will be accepted, which so far, with the above, have
been dismal failures.

	Once it is in full demand, and the real evidence is not
forthcoming, most of the Holocasut story will have to be listed under
"Fiction" in the libraries.

	The more forensic investigations that take place and end up
failing to show what was intended, as is already the case with the
above, the more they will prove what didn't happen.  

	After all, much of the story has already gone down the drain just
>from  retrospect considerations not founded on the forensic method and
increased demand for physical evidence will undo the rest. 





From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 17:24:08 PDT 1996
Article: 63572 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can you question this answer?
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 18:14:04 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	Since this answer has not been properly questioned and there
seems to be no more attempts at trying to question it, I am here and
now giving the question.	

>Answer:
>	Germany, France, England, Russia, Canada, United States and the
>Christians, to name a few.
>
>Question:

	Who are some of those claimed to be responsible for, and/or,
complicit in the Holocaust?
>     _______________________________________________________________
>____________________________________________________________________
>____________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 17:24:09 PDT 1996
Article: 63601 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Incredible Sequence
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 16:23:34 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	This part is one of the dance steps where Mr.Mittleman steps on
his own toes.

Mr.Mittleman:
>	Bumbles. stumbles, and funbles?  You sure are getting desperate
>is all you can do is pick up on the word "loosely."

	He mocks Moran for the picking up on his word "loosely" as
"desperate" but then goes on to say,


>    But it does merit a serious comment. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 17:24:10 PDT 1996
Article: 63605 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960906: Since Galileo's time . . .
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 16:00:12 GMT
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dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>	"They laughed at Galileo, they laughed at Newton, they laughed at
>Einstein - they even laughed at Bozo the Clown!"
>	- comment attributed to Carl Sagan
>
>	I guess the Zundel drones are in the circus business.
>
>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson

	Who is "they"?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 17:24:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63627 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 15:45:37 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Even though modern day cremation facilities take two
># and half hours to cremate one body,
>
>Senility, Tommy, is a sad thing to watch. You must have 
>forgotten that the sources posted here - taken directly
>off the cremation web site - state that, when the furnace
>is already hot, cremation takes less than one hour.

	"Less than an hour"? That is for one body right? Is it 59
minutes, 40 minutes, 20 minutes 20 minutes, 5 minutes or 5 seconds.

>And, as has been pointed here numerous times, the Topf patent
>of 1953 estimates 30-45 minutes for cremation. Topf is the
>same firm that built the Auschwitz-Bireknau furnaces.

	And then there is the problem of opening a door to interior that
is red hot to cold air. Most human beings become aware of what happens
when they suddenly expose a very hot object to a cold medium or vice
versa. Crack. Even if the interior is fire clay, manufactured to
withstand extreme heats, it is not capable of handling repeated
radical changes. 
	You say "as it has been pointed out" about the Topf patent, are
you saying it was presented here, in English, or do you mean someone
mentioned it?  

>As for putting more corpse than one in a single muffle - there's
>no difficulty about that; this will not be done during normal
>cremation procedure, out of respect for the dead, but there's
>no problem in doing it during "industrial cremation" as in
>the camps; moreover since there were many children and infants
>among the victims.

	Whatever you have put here says nothing about cremation rates. In
the first you said "less than an hour", and we have to recognize this
means one body, so maybe you would like to come back with something a
bit more definitive as to time for 4 bodies. 

	At Majdanek, a Soviet/Polish Extraordinary Commission alleged
that 4 bodies could reduced to charred bones in 10 minutes. 
	Why don't you post the URL of this "cremation website" and I'll
attempt some dialogue with them. 

	The name and URL of this "cremation website" Mr.Keren. Lets have
it.      

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 17:24:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63629 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 16:02:07 GMT
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Annie Alpert  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>                                 The best of Sara Schwartz
>> 
>>         Here are some of her more notable posted responses. As you will
>> see there is no reason to include whatever she is responding to.
>>                 ---------------------------------
>
>
>Tom, thanks for gathering this group of quotes from Sara's AR postings. 
>I almost forgot how witty and bright she is!  How nice of you to prepare
>this tribute to her skill!

	Save your thanks for a 'The Best of Annie Alpert".


>Regards,
>
>Annie
>-- 
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 20:05:35 PDT 1996
Article: 63637 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller mystery solved?
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 23:54:33 GMT
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	I have recombulated Mr.Beaulieu's post here so it will not to be
scrolled side ways. Tom Moran


Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

by Arthur R. Butz

Veteran revisionists recognize that an outstanding small problem has
been the "Vergasungskeller" that was evidently in or near Crematorium
II at Auschwitz.

Crematorium II (and its mirror image Crematorium III) had two huge
nderground morgues, Leichenkeller 1 (LK 1) and LK 2, and a smaller
morgue LK 3. LK 1 and LK 2 were simple concrete morgues in which
bodies were simply laid on the floor. A letter from the Auschwitz
construction department dated 29 January 1943, when the construction
of Crematorium II was nearing completion, reports that frost prohibits
removal of the formwork for the ceiling of the "Leichenkeller"
(without specifying which of the three is meant) but that this is
unimportant, since the "Vergasungskeller" can be used for that
purpose, i.e. as a morgue. The document had the number NO-4473 at the
Nuremberg trials.

When NO-4473 is interpreted with the help of some documents reproduced
by Pressac [1], it is shown that the "Leichenkeller" is LK 2. Pressac
believes that the Vergasungskeller is LK 1 and that a "slip", indeed
"enormous gaff" (sic), caused the author of the document to betray the
true purpose of LK 1, referring to it as a "gassing cellar" (although
the usual German word for such a concept is "Gaskammer"). On no known
set of engineering drawings is a "Vergasungskeller" indicated [2].

Many of those who would have us believe that there were homicidal gas
chambers at Auschwitz insist on this interpretation. An interesting
exception has been the Austrian-born Raul Hilberg. He cites, and even
quotes from, NO-4473 in the "Killing Center Operations" chapter of The
Destruction of the European Jews, but he is silent on the
"Vergasungskeller".

In my 1976 book The Hoax of the Twentieth Century I offered that this
was a part of the crematorium building devoted to generating a
combustible gas for the ovens [3]. This interpretation was
linguistically correct and could be technically correct, depending on
the design of the ovens. The primary meaning of "Vergasung" is gas
generation or carburetion, i.e. turning something into a gas. A
secondary meaning is application of a gas as in fumigation or in gas
warfare. It is also the word Germans use to refer to the alleged
gassing of Jews; however, they use "Gaskammer" rather than
"Vergasungskammer" or "Vergasungskeller" for the facility imagined to
have accomplished this. Such usage also applies in the literature on
fumigation [4].

By 1989 Robert Faurisson realized that my original interpretation was
wrong and later in 1989 Pressac [5] conclusively showed that it was
wrong, based on the design of the cremation ovens. In 1991 Faurisson
offered a theory [6] that the Vergasungskeller was a storage area, for
fumigation supplies, within LK 3. 

In 1992 I showed that there were many ways "Vergasung" can come up in
sewage treatment technology, and offered that the Vergasungskeller
might be found in the sewage treatment plant next to the crematorium.
However I favored the interpretation that the Vergasungskeller was
simply a facility for generating fuel gas for the camp [7]. NO-4473
suggests, but does not require, that the Vergasungskeller was located
within the crematorium building.

The purpose of this note is to offer another interpretation which I
now believe is more plausible than any earlier offered by me or
anybody else. Before I do that I should remark that the problem here
is what the Vergasungskeller was, not whether it was a homicidal gas
chamber. Those who claim it was a homicidal gas chamber focus their
attention entirely on that one word in the document. If they would
instead focus on what the document says, they would realize that it is
impossible to make that interpretation work. The document shows that
in January 1943 the Germans were in a great
rush to use the building as an ordinary crematorium.

As Faurisson discussed earlier [8], during World War II the combatants
paid great heed that new structures be considered, if possible, as air
raid shelters. There were two principal dangers that such shelters
were to provide protection against: bombs and gas attacks. On account
of World War I experiences, the possibilities of the latter were taken
very seriously. Indeed many simply assumed that gas would be used,
despite treaties outlawing its use. Typically, a gas shelter was
conceived of  s a bomb shelter, preferably underground and very strong
structurally, with some features added to make it secure against gas;
a gas shelter had to be gas tight but allow people to breathe [9].
Since in many cases it was not economic to provide such structures for
at most only occasional use, it was recognized that such shelters
could exist in the form of embellishments to structures that exist for
other purposes. However the number of suitable such structures was
limited. For example, the typical underground cellar belongs to a
building with several stories; the collapse of these in an air raid
could prevent people from leaving the cellar.

My proposal is that the Vergasungskeller was a gas shelter. It need
not have been located within Crematorium II but I believe it most
likely was, on account of the fact that Crematoria II and III,
with their large concrete cellars, were obviously ideal for adaptation
as air raid shelters. Indeed when this problem is looked at from the
point of view of defense against air raids it seems there
was no better choice at Auschwitz. The German authorities responsible
for providing air raid shelters would have insisted that the necessary
embellishments be made to these structures. My reading of some of the
relevant chemical warfare literature convinces me that Crematoria II
and III were conceived of by the Germans as having this additional
role.

I have never seen the word "Vergasungskeller" in a lexicon; indeed I
have seen it only in discussions of NO-4473 [10] ! However I have seen
two German-Russian dictionaries, one a military dictionary, that say
"Gaskeller" means "gas shelter" [11]. However we should not consider
ourselves bound to dictionaries on this. If one asks the question: In
a World War II military context, what might "Vergasungskeller" and/or
"Gaskeller" mean?, I think that "gas shelter" is the answer that
comes naturally to mind, and that other meanings are somewhat
strained. Of course other meanings come naturally to mind in
non-military contexts.

As a personal example, I can report that I have been unable to find
the term "control lab" (or "control laboratory", "controls lab",
"controls laboratory") in my IEEE Standard Dictionary of Electrical
and Electronics Terms (edition of 1972), although every university
Dept. of Electrical Engineering in the USA has a "control lab" and
that is how we normally refer to such a place. I have also been unable
to find the term in an unabridged Webster's, in an on-line version of
the Oxford English Dictionary, and in several other dictionaries I
have.

If this theory is correct then we should view all three cellars in
Crematorium II as air raid shelters, with only one being provided with
the additional measures to make it effective as a gas shelter. That
could only be LK 1, since NO-4473 implies it is not LK 2, LK 3 was
very small and, conclusively, because LK 1 was the only one of the
three provided with a gas-tight door [12]. Moreover while all parts of
the building had motor driven air extraction systems, it appears that
only LK 1 had a motor driven air intake system [13].

Pressac also believes the Vergasungskeller was LK 1; under my theory
he is then right on location but wrong on function. LK 1 had the basic
features of a gas shelter. Pressac admits that the air exhaust (at the
bottom) and air intake (near the top) systems of LK 1 were misplaced
for a gas chamber employing HCN [14]. Although HCN is only slightly
lighter than air, there are various practical reasons why gas chambers
employing it normally expel the gas from the top when the gassing
process is completed [15]. Carbon dioxide, by contrast, is much
heavier than air and is most naturally expelled from the bottom of the
relevant space.

Why would the author of NO-4473 not refer to a Leichenkeller as a
Leichenkeller? I don't think a slip is involved. We normally do not
consider ourselves bound to use only formal designations. More
commonly, we refer to things according to their function or in any
case the function that happens to be in mind at the time. The gas
shelter features of LK 1 were its principal structural distinction
>from  LK 2 and those features were being taken into account in the
construction at the time. It was natural that LK 1 might be referred
to as the gas shelter.

As another example of a use of terminology suggested by function, the
engineers Jährling and Messing referred to LK 2 of Crematoria II and
III, during construction, via the terms "Auskleideraum" and
"Auskleidekeller" (undressing room or cellar), another one of what
Pressac considers "slips" that betrayed a criminal purpose [16]. This
has been another point raised by those who would put a homicidal
interpretation on Crematoria II and III; the victims would according
to this theory undress themselves in LK 2 and then be gassed in LK 1.

It seems hard to believe these were "slips" because they were so
frequently committed. Jährling used this designation in a document of
6 March 1943, and then Messing used it in three documents later in
March. If these were "slips", it would seem that by this time the
bosses would have told them to clean up their language. They evidently
didn't, because Messing used the designation in two more documents in
April [17].

The truth about the undressing is much more prosaic. Pressac believes
that, when the Germans viewed Crematoria II and III as ordinary
crematoria, then the sequence of processing bodies was contemplated to
be LK 3 to LK 2 to LK 1, but that LK 3 was eventually eliminated from
the regular sequence [18]. However that may be, if the dead bodies
were contemplated to start in LK 2 they would then be undressed there
[19]. They would be stored in LK 1 while awaiting cremation.
Presumably LK 3 was only used when a body needed some sort of special
processing, e.g. dissection or the famous extraction of gold fillings
>from  teeth.

I am struck by the humorous simplicity of the theory offered here.




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep  8 22:15:33 PDT 1996
Article: 63680 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Desert Ostrich
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:07:38 GMT
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	In the Bible, we have the story of Goliath. His shield weighed
about 40 pounds, the point on his spear weighed 15 pounds and his
armor weighed over a hundred pounds. For someone as big as 10 feet
tall, all these measurements might be proportionally legitimate. 
			
	Israel makes a few models of guns that find their way into the
American market. Of course there is the UZI, perhaps one of the first
weapons of that type permitted for legal sales. 

	Then there is the "Desert Eagle". This is a semi-automatic hand
gun that can come in a .357 model or 44 caliber.  Therefore, in
relation to a size/caliber ratio, such as exemplified in comparing a
22 caliber to a 9mm semi-automatic, everything must be proportionally
larger, the hand grip, the frame and the barrel. This makes it so big
and cumbersome that it would only suit some species that may be from
the Land Of The Giants, Goliath's homeland, and not suitable for real
human beings.

	Because of its disproportionate unwieldy size in relation to the
average human physique the gun is not any good for serious competition
shooting, nor is any good as a personal carry weapon, home protection
weapon, or for any police or military applications.

	It is for the very most part just an implement of bravado.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:07 PDT 1996
Article: 63694 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does the "A-Team" get paid?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:26 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <50mauf$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:21:01 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net>, amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan
>> >Matthews) wrote:
>> 
>> >[speaking of Tom Moron]
>> 
>> >> Perhaps he's autistic - many of them like to bang their heads against
>a wall 
>> >> endlessly.
>> >> 
 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell

	Sara, how is you raise your son as a topic out here in a format
like this?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:09 PDT 1996
Article: 63695 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:08:46 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Wow!  There must be a logical link in there somewhere, but I
can't
find it...

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:10 PDT 1996
Article: 63696 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:08:51 GMT
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brucew@phoenix.net (Bruce Wedding) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>There already is a movie about it tom.  I can't recall the name, but
>>>it is the one starring Meg Ryan.
>
>>Really? If you recall the name, let me know. Thanks
>
>Courage Under Fire starring Meg Ryan and Denzel Washington.
>
>Bruce

	Okay, thanks. I'll have to rent it and see what they have
squeezed out.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63697 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:08:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	8,347 at last count, wasn't it, Ken?  I mean, counting the guys
working on ways to counter tinfoil hats...

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63699 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT II - sign on here
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:13:54 GMT
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	In message <322efa13.8222217@news.pacificnet.net> -
tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) writes:


Tommie, I fear you are near the end.  I have to tell you.  ZOG will
get me, but please ponder this clue.  TROLL!!!


	"McFee", your only nibling here. Go on take the bit. Sign up.


[rest deleted]


--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:12 PDT 1996
Article: 63700 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Vergasungskeller mystery solved?
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:11:57 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	If ever a post comes up where it runs off the screen, check your
drop down menus for 'preferences', could be under another title. It
might say "Fixed Word Pitch" and another option "Word wrap". Disengage
the first one and click the second option.
	The type style is a bit different and closer on my program,
Agent .99, but printing out in "Word Wrap" leaves a nice margin on the
right hand side that's good for writing in notes.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:13 PDT 1996
Article: 63778 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 15:55:16 GMT
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Laurinda Stryker  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>>         In the Holocaust book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" we
>> are given a photo with the caption: "Arrival and selection of
>> Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, 1944. Credit: Yad Vashim, Jeruselem".
>>         The word "selection" is Holocaust vernacular is always used to
>> designate those who are selected to go to the gas chamber.
>
>[snip]
>
>>         We are to assume from the "selection" word that either all the
>> women are to go off to the gas chamber but not the men, or vice versa,
>> when in fact the camp was segregated into mens camp and womens camp.

>Why are we to 'assume' this, Mr. Moran?  Testimony consistently states 
>that those arriving at Auschwitz were first divided by sex and then 
>selected for labour or the gas.

	Then if this is the case, we can't say they were being "selected"
for any gas chambers. For anyone reading this, watch out for this
"selection" word when reading Holocaust sales books. It means those
chosen to go to the gas chambers.

>[snip]
>> 
>>         Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
>> the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
>> right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
>> another 60 or 70 feet away.
>
>[snip]
>
>Again, this is completely consistent with testimony.  See, for 
>example, Sara Nomberg-Przytyk, _Auschwitz: True Tales from a Grotesque 
>Land_, ed. Eli Pfefferkorn and David H. Hirsch (Chapel Hill: 
>University of North Carolina Press, 1985).

	Why don't you just present here, instead of referring to a book
that I have not seen referenced in any library, even the Beverly Hills
Library? And then it is testimony. Testimony being 99% of the
Holocaust 'facts'.


	All the "snips" that the lady has put here are those points she
avoids to comment on, in their context with whatever she has chosen.
>Laurinda Stryker 
>-- 
>School of Historical and Critical Studies
>University of Brighton
>10-11 Pavilion Parade
>Brighton BN2 1RA  UK



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:15 PDT 1996
Article: 63779 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters?
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 15:16:56 GMT
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Keith Morrison  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>
>> >Courage Under Fire starring Meg Ryan and Denzel Washington.
>> >
>> >Bruce
>> 
>>         Okay, thanks. I'll have to rent it and see what they have
>> squeezed out.
>
>Might be difficult to find at Blockbuster as they just released it
>in theatres.

	What timing. Now that we have the world hating us even more, us
'All by our lonesome', and the people of the U.S. writing letters to
the editors at a rate of 6 to 1 against our latest maneuver for the
Jewish state of Israel, good luck.

>
>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:15 PDT 1996
Article: 63781 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Are there any non-Jew-hating revisionists?
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 15:22:48 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article , qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC) wrote:
>
>> 
>> Tom Moran, Matt Giwer and Duncan Coons don't hate Jews one way or 
>> the other.  I'm not a revisionist or a Jew hater, I like the
>> Jewish religion, it's just their race leaves something that needs to be 
>> controlled for their own good.
>
>Tom "I can spot a Jew" Moran doesn't hate Jews?

	I notice you have put "I can spot a Jew" in quote marks.

>I beg to differ.
> 
>Matt "call 'em Jewboy" Giwer doesn't hate Jews?
> 
>I beg to differ.
> 
>I don't read Duncan Coons, so I have no idea.
> 
>Your Mr. Stele," however, has produced little gems like this:
>
>"Maybe that is why the labor camps were melodramatically called "death
>camps" by the -millions- of people who survived them:  the thought of
>doing manual labor was simply horrifying to them."
> 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 08:21:16 PDT 1996
Article: 63782 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.slack,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany blocks access to XS4ALL
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 15:16:22 GMT
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

Moran:
>>	I'd be interested in seeing exactly what the "Nazi" material is
>>that you "held your noses to".


Graves:
>Why, Ingrid Rimland's Zundelsite, of course. I believe you're familiar
>with her material, as you've been receiving her daily "Zundelgrams"  since
>the beginning. 

Moran:
>>	I realize you are showing your concern for freedom of speech, I
>>just want to see if it's a feign to press an opinion under that guise.

Graves:
>Yes, don't you hate it when people who claim believe in free speech
>presume to -- gasp -- express opinions? 
>
>Your concern is misplaced. Declan really doesn't care about you Nazis
>either way. He expends far too much energy thinking about himself. I
>suppose I should give Declan some credit for mentioning my (first) name,
>in the context of (falsely) claiming credit for my initiative.

Moran:
We can just wait to see if DeClan comes back with the same kind of
baby talk as Graves, or if he even comes back at all.

>-rich



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 11:07:39 PDT 1996
Article: 90239 of can.general
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: can.general,qc.general,mtl.general,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canadian
Subject: Re: QUEBEC FED UP WITH PHONEY ISRAELI REFUGEES
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 15:13:25 GMT
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echte Wahrheit  wrote:

>acumen@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
>> 
>> In a story headlined "CRACKDOWN PROMISED AGAINST BOGUS REFUGEES",
>> distributed across Canada by Southam Newspapers, Andre boisclair, Quebec
>> Minister for Immigration, complains about bogus so-called refugees from
>> ISRAEL>
>> 
>> Boisclair announced that 1,700 false refugee claims from Israelis were
>> filed last year.
>> 
>> Boisclair further stated, "These people aren't coming here as refugees in
>> my sense, or in the sense intended by the Geneva Convention.",
>> 
>> Even the federal Canadian Minister for Immigration, Robillard stated that
>> some claiming refugee status are trying to circumvent regular immigration
>> channels, which is not fair to those who are following the rules.
>When even the Quebec Minister for Immigration agrees with the federal
>Minister for Immigration, then there really must be a serious problem.
>
>Why should Russian Jews, who are too lazy to work in Israel, be allowed
>into Canada in the first place?
>
>Even the government of Israel states categorigally, that these Russian
>Jews ARE NOT REFUGEES, as stipulated under the Geneva Convention.
>
>Why then is the Canadian Government allowing these criminals, which is
>what they are, into Canada, thereby delaying the processing for
>legitimate immigration applications?

	In the U.S. there are hundreds of thousands on the government
dole.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 12:56:41 PDT 1996
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3231c47f.5089350@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <3231c47f.5089350@news.pacificnet.net>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 13:18:53 PDT 1996
Article: 63786 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 14:29:17 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>>
>>Three more names requesting to be put on the list of those endorsing
>>McVay's statement about Moran's sister.
>>
>>>Those already signed on are:
>>>
>>>1. Chuck Ferree
>>>
>>>2. Joel Rosenberg
>>>
>>>3. Danny Mittleman
>>>
>>>4. Jamie McCarthy
>>>
>>>5. Keith Morrison
>>>
>>>6. Yale Edeiken
>>>
>>>7. Ken McVay, reiterating
>>>
>>8. Mike Curtis
>>>
>>9. Richard Graves
>>>
>>10. Mark VanAlstine
>>>
>>11. Bob Beck
>>>
12. "Rajiv K. Gandhi"
>>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 13:18:54 PDT 1996
Article: 63797 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Twelve Year Grace Period
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 15:07:27 GMT
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	              Random House Dictionary,
 "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".

========================================================================
		
	According to some accounts, but not all, the reason the previous
numbers of those said to have been exterminated at Auschwitz was 3
million higher than the current 1 million is because the Soviets
mis-calculated the numbers of people that could be cremated in the
ovens.

	How they went about this ciphering is not detailed in Holocaust
accounts, but it would be interesting to see how they went about
coming up with the 300 percent over estimate.

	The other account of why the old number was so far off is because
of the intentional conniving on the part of the Poles and Soviets to
inflate Polish casualties so as to deflate Jewish causalities, or
something like that. (The full ride down the bumpy dirt road can be
found on the Simon Wiesenthal web page.)

	If we should accept the either excuse, mis-calculation or
intentional lie, we are led to wonder about other things.

	First we would have to recognize that this is the only way they
came up with the 4 million number, in lieu of say, an actual count of
bodies, which we will recognize would not be available, even if the
Holocaust story was true.

	But there is one more way that the old number of 4 million was
arrived at. This was by way of eyewitness accounts. Among these
eyewitnesses would be Rudolph Ho'ss, the Holocaust story's expert,
star witness, who testified/confessed that over 3 million people were
killed.

	Of course we have to eliminate any extraordinary accounts that
filtered out or were claimed before the end of the war and thus
investigations as not being a legitimate source of any evidence, and
the Holocaust dependents, understandably, do not use these sources as
part of their sales package. If they did, they would have to cite the
sources of these pre, end of war numbers, and this would tend to be an
'embarrassment'.

	So in a pure research sequence we have to recognize there are two
basic claims as to why the number was 4 million in the first place.
The incredibly wayward Soviet mathematics as put forth by say, Nizkor,
"The 4 Million Variant" and their source for that, or the intentional
juggling by the Soviets and Poles as claimed by the Simon Wiesenthal
Center.

	Since either one of these is the basic statement on the old
Auschwitz number, we have to recognize there was nothing else, say as
an actual body count, records or forensic investigations from which to
deduce any numbers. .

	If there was nothing else at the time, that we should assume
there was plenty of opportunity for further documentation, we have to
recognize any other evidence they have for the story is the subsequent
eye witness accounts. The only eye witness accounts the Holocaust
dependents dare to use as to any numbers is that of Rudolph Ho'ss, who
said there were up to 3 million people killed at the camp. We have to
recognize that since the current number is 2 million less than what
the star Holocaust witness said, then either the current number is
wrong or the star witness was wrong, or lying.

	All this would suggest that whatever numbers they had then, and
were submitted to Nuremberg or any other trials, were founded on real
shaky grounds. Earth quake shaky.

	Not until around 1980 did the numbers come to be what they
currently are. The new numbers are founded on the "interpretations" of
transfer records and rail manifestos with the specific criteria that
no eyewitness accounts, court evidence, commission reports or
confessions by Germans were to be trusted or used in the new figuring.

	Is there anything 'funny' about this 'new' number, as it is
obvious there was with the old one? Well this would involve the
investigation of the records used and the consideration of any
interpreting logic. Will all this ever become available to researchers
who may have suspicions? We can only wait and see.

	The one thing we can conclude as to any shenanigans is that the
'new' numbers are not all that new. They are said to have been arrived
at in 1980. Not until the last three years or so did any formal
announcement of the current revised number take place, leaving a gap
of about 12 years between the time of arriving at the current number
and the official announcement. Not only this, but the old number of 4
million was allowed to be cited hundreds, if not thousands of times in
the world's medias during this 12 year span without any knowledgable
parties coming forth to correct them.
	 

	
      


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 13:18:55 PDT 1996
Article: 63800 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 15:24:15 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>> 
>>>
>>>Three more names requesting to be put on the list of those endorsing
>>>McVay's statement about Moran's sister.
>>>
>>>>Those already signed on are:
>>>>
>>>>1. Chuck Ferree
>>>>
>>>>2. Joel Rosenberg
>>>>
>>>>3. Danny Mittleman
>>>>
>>>>4. Jamie McCarthy
>>>>
>>>>5. Keith Morrison
>>>>
>>>>6. Yale Edeiken
>>>>
>>>>7. Ken McVay, reiterating
>>>>
>>>8. Mike Curtis
>>>>
>>>9. Richard Graves
>>>>
>>>10. Mark VanAlstine
>>>>
>>>11. Bob Beck
>>>>
>12. "Rajiv K. Gandhi"

	Okay, we have a down and dirty dozen. Any more?



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 13:18:56 PDT 1996
Article: 63842 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Desert Ostrich
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 14:13:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

	This is the statement Bell chose to challenge.
Moran:
>>	The fact is, everything I said about it, Rosenberg has had to
>>concede along the way as he tried to divert.

	This is the statement Bell uses to challenge it.
Bell:
>	Wrong - you claimed that the gun was too big for human hands and
>Joel pointed out it isn't.

Moran:
	Show where I said, "too big for human hands". "Too big" You mean
I said it couldn't be held? Show it. 
	The statement you have selected to challenge reads, again,

	"The fact is, everything I said about it, Rosenberg has had to
concede along the way as he tried to divert."
	
	You failed to respond to that. 
	
Moran:
	"Because of its disproportionate unwieldy size in relation to the
average human physique the gun is not any good for serious competition
shooting, nor is any good as a personal carry weapon, home protection
weapon, or for any police or military applications."

Rosenberg:
	"It's actually particularly good for certain kinds of competition
shooting -- the steel plate stuff -- so I'm told.  But no, it's not a
particularly good choice as a carry weapon (too heavy) or home
protection weapon (actually, it wouldn't be bad in that role -- the
weight doesn't matter much in that context, and neither does it being
single-action -- it's just that there's better choices), or police or
military weapon."

	Now is this what was said, or is it what you say it says?  


	The only thing you could count on Bell to have anyone believe
whatever you write is for their not going over the previous
statements. Out here Bell, it is all written down as it goes, and sits
there for reference by any one who wants to see if someone is trying
to pull off a dupe.

	While you attempt to dupe others, do you dupe yourself, Bell?
>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 16:14:20 PDT 1996
Article: 63885 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An Incredible Sequence
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 13:55:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <32342187.1769738@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <3232f1c3.4031879@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>>	This part is one of the dance steps where Mr.Mittleman steps on
>>his own toes.
>> 
>>Mr.Mittleman:
>>>	Bumbles. stumbles, and funbles?  You sure are getting desperate
>>>is all you can do is pick up on the word "loosely."
>> 
>>	He mocks Moran for the picking up on his word "loosely" as
>>"desperate" but then goes on to say,
>> 
>>>    But it does merit a serious comment. 
>
>    Your point being...?
>
>    Note: all of what I said made sense before you removed the context. 
>    But that is typical of your responses.
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 

	Why don't you straighten it all out. Put it into "context" or
whatever.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep  9 21:43:16 PDT 1996
Article: 63966 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:42:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 6
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	Sara Schwartz's favorite quote that can be found at the end of
here posts. 

	"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of
it."


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 07:19:12 PDT 1996
Article: 64009 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.goodnet.com!nntp.wwwi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT II - sign on here
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 15:22:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	"McFee", your only nibling here. 
>
>I don't know about the rest of you, but this sounds like some sort of
>daytime talk show intro to me.  "And now, 'Dialling for Fatbroads,'
>with the star of our show -- your only nibling -- Gord McFee!"
>
>Now if someone would just tell me what a "nibling" is. . .

	"McFee" says Moran is trolling. Trolling in the U.S. means to
fish. "Nibling" is a spelling mistake. I make the correction.
"Nibbling" with two b(s).
	Nibbling when used in conjunction with the fishing topic means
the fish is just taking a taste, pecking at the bait. "McFee" nibbled
and Moran told him to take the bite.
	How about you? Do you want to bite? Sign on to endorse the
statement, which "McFee" says is a "troll"? 


>-----
>Richard Schultz                              schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il
>Department of Chemistry                      tel: 972-3-531-8065
>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel       fax: 972-3-535-1250
>-----
> "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 11:34:12 PDT 1996
Article: 148688 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <323580aa.5234297@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <323580aa.5234297@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:02:05 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 11:36:04 PDT 1996
Article: 64115 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let us not overlook ...
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:54:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <32357321.1769079@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <323305be.9146550@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>	
>>	Let us not overlook the fact that whenever Ken McVay, "Director"
>>of the anti-hate, pro-Holocaust website Nizkor, posts anything out
>>here, that he is representing all those that support or link his
>>website, including the Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Anti-Defamation
>>League - generally, the interests of the whole world Jewish community.
>
>    Zeyde, I don't think you quite have down the concept of links yet.

	Try it this way. Forget the word "link" is there. Now try it.

>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 11:36:05 PDT 1996
Article: 64136 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.telalink.net!telalink!news.thecia.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Kristalnacht in England
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:38:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	When David Irving's book "Goebbels" went on sale in England
"someone" went around and broke the windows of the book stores selling
the book. Then the 'someones' left a note telling the shop owners if
they wanted to make sure there was no more kristalnachting they better
stop selling the book.

	Here in the U.S. we lucked out. The book was banned by the
process of cowtowing to a concerted foot stompin outraged indignation
by 'someone' and no windows got broken, yet. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 11:36:05 PDT 1996
Article: 64137 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:16:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <323576b9.2689292@news.pacificnet.net>
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Laurinda Stryker  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> Laurinda Stryker  wrote:
>> 
>> >tom moran wrote:
>> >>
>> >>         In the Holocaust book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" we
>> >> are given a photo with the caption: "Arrival and selection of
>> >> Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, 1944. Credit: Yad Vashim, Jeruselem".
>
>[snip]
>
>> >>         We are to assume from the "selection" word that either all the
>> >> women are to go off to the gas chamber but not the men, or vice versa,
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Why are we to 'assume' this, Mr. Moran?  Testimony consistently states
>> >that those arriving at Auschwitz were first divided by sex and then
>> >selected for labour or the gas.
>> 
>>         Then if this is the case, we can't say they were being "selected"
>> for any gas chambers. For anyone reading this, watch out for this
>> "selection" word when reading Holocaust sales books. It means those
>> chosen to go to the gas chambers.
>
>To state what should be obvious: the selection process on the ramp was 
>a _process_.  Men and women were separated from each other; small 
>children, their mothers, and the infirm were separated from the 
>others; the adult men and adult women were then inspected cursorily 
>and directed either to join the group destined for labour or that 
>which would be sent to the gas.  Survivors with whom I've spoken 
>invariably testify to the rapidity of this sorting process; any 
>photograph, however, can obviously show only one stage.  'Selection', 
>with reference to new arrivals, denotes the process as a whole.
>> 
>> >[snip]
>> >>
>> >>         Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
>> >> the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
>> >> right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
>> >> another 60 or 70 feet away.
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >Again, this is completely consistent with testimony.  See, for
>> >example, Sara Nomberg-Przytyk, _Auschwitz: True Tales from a Grotesque
>> >Land_, ed. Eli Pfefferkorn and David H. Hirsch (Chapel Hill:
>> >University of North Carolina Press, 1985).
>> 
>>         Why don't you just present here, instead of referring to a book
>> that I have not seen referenced in any library, even the Beverly Hills
>> Library? 
>
>I've just checked the catalogue for the Seattle Public Library system, 
>which lists several copies of this book.  I know it is readily 
>available in university library systems both in America and in the UK.  
>I cannot know what the strengths or shortcomings of the Beverly Hills 
>Library's collections may be; I would remind you, however, of 
>interlibrary loan services.
>
>
>>And then it is testimony. 
>
>You claimed that 'Holocaust facts...assert the whole operation [i.e. 
>the selections on the ramp] was concealed from the rest of the camp.'  
>I provided a reference to a discussion of prisoners' responses to 
>seeing the arrival of new transports.  You seemed dissatisfied with 
>what the photos showed: that new arrivals could be seen from some 
>parts of the camp.  Testimony indicates that there is nothing 
>problematic in acknowledging that this was in fact the case.  As you 
>have not furnished any evidence that 'Holocaust facts' (whatever you 
>mean by that) do assert what you claim they assert (and here I am 
>echoing your own grammatical construction: _facts_, of course, cannot 
>themselves assert anything), I see nothing problematic in my citation.
>
>
>Testimony being 99% of the
>> Holocaust 'facts'.
>> 
>>         All the "snips" that the lady has put here are those points she
>> avoids to comment on, in their context with whatever she has chosen.
>
>
>To the extent that I can make sense of this sentence, I would simply 
>reply that I have answered a number of your points.  The books I have 
>in my office here do not contain plans of the Auschwitz-Birkenau 
>complex, and so I cannot address your contentions re: its layout.  
>Such plans are, of course, readily available. 
>
>Laurinda Stryker 
>School of Historical and Critical Studies
>University of Brighton
>Brighton BN2 1RA  UK

	To any readers, whenever you read any Holocaust promotional
books, take note of everytime you read the word "selection" and take
note of the context it is being used. "Selection", "selection process"
means, selection of those who go to the gas chambers and those who
don't.

	I take it the book Ms. Stryker refers to here is a pot pourri of
eyewitness accounts, which is 99% of the story.

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 11:36:06 PDT 1996
Article: 64138 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:27:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <32357a7b.3651029@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322eef53.5469925@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	A little banter by the boys in the sand box.


Rich Graves (rcgraves@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
: >Dave Harman OBC (/qut@netcom.com/:j) wrote:

: >: Why haven't you denounced Rich Graves?
: >
: >What am I supposed to denounce Rich for?
: 
: Maybe he's talking about the Moran Meets Monty Python thread, where
I
: outed "donuts" as "they." Obviously a threat against donuts
everywhere. 

Oh, well--if you did that...

Listen up, Dave Harman, OBC:  I, Bill Anderson, hereby denounce
donut outers everywhere as a grave and potent threat to world 
freedom.  I pledge to dedicate my life to keeping donuts in the
closet.  Amen.

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 11:36:07 PDT 1996
Article: 64139 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Allegiance is to Israel First
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:31:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <32357b5c.3876057@news.pacificnet.net>
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Annie Alpert  wrote:

>Kurt Stele wrote:
>Hold it.  How could JOOOOOs show allegiance to Israel BEFORE Israel was
>founded? Double-duh.

	Zionism was a movement way before the present Israel Annie. Keep
talking, your good for revisionism. 

>
>The rest is silence . . .
>
>-- 
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 11:36:08 PDT 1996
Article: 64140 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Unitied States sailors got what they deserved.
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:05:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	Poor Annie Alpert.	
>
>Kurt Stele wrote:
>
>34 dead, 171 casualties.  A massacre all the same.
>Where is the U.S.S. Liberty monument in Washington D.C.?  Where is the
>Shpielberg films about it?
>
>
>Annie Alpert replied:
>
>"For the record, the USS Liberty was engaged in spying against our
>ally (whether you like to admit it or not).  The Liberty was a spy
>ship. Israel is our ally.  Read it and weep."
>
>
>	Now all we have to do is wait and see if she thinks we should
>bomb Israel for their spying on us, as reported in recent CIA report.
>
>	Annie has posted she is not Jewish, that she has blonde hair and
>blue eyes. Maybe she's one of those who fancies a job in Hollywood.

	I wonder what else poor Annie would stoop to do to show favor?



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 12:44:22 PDT 1996
Article: 64152 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Allegiance is to Israel First
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:51:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <323570fb.1219335@news.pacificnet.net>
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>
>> notice how he truncated the passage.
>> 
>> Just like a holohugger.
>
>Notice how, in the archive on Nizkor, I included your whole article,
>so people could read every stinking, nasty word you wrote.
>
>Posted/emailed.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
> Hate mail will be posted.

	This Jamie McCarthy thinks all he has to do is create a doosier
on someone, announce it, and this will scare them away from telling
the truth.
	Okay Kurt, watch what you say. Nizkor's got a dossier on you,
which no one looks at any way. The way they go about it is totally
non-sensical, if not corrupt.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 12:44:23 PDT 1996
Article: 64161 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let us not overlook ...
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:56:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <323572e1.1705531@news.pacificnet.net>
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Laura Finsten  wrote:

>Ken McVay represents the Zundel site, Mr. Moran?  They
>have a link to Nizkor, as well, I'm sure you realise.

	I was waiting for this little angle. Of course Nizkor doesn't
link Zundel because he likes to, or that he agrees with him, or
becasue he endorses it.

	Here, try it this way. Forget that the word "link" is there. Now
try it.


>"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your 
>revolution."
>          Emma Goldman
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 17:31:18 PDT 1996
Article: 64239 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crematorium Rates
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:08:48 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>> >
>> ># Even though modern day cremation facilities take two
>> ># and half hours to cremate one body,
>> >
>> >Senility, Tommy, is a sad thing to watch. You must have 
>> >forgotten that the sources posted here - taken directly
>> >off the cremation web site - state that, when the furnace
>> >is already hot, cremation takes less than one hour.
>> 
>> 	"Less than an hour"? That is for one body right? Is it 59
>> minutes, 40 minutes, 20 minutes 20 minutes, 5 minutes or 5 seconds.
>
>
> again, he's not talking about the huge difference of temperature
> between the 'super-crematories' which gives an output in an hour
> and those of Birkenau (about 800 or 900 degrees). The site he's refering
> also gives, if memory deserve, a gap, between 'less than an hour
> and 4 hours' I think. Nowhere I've eared about 4 hours except for
> very very fat persons. It is true however that among the 5 or 6 crematory
> operators to whom I talked I eared a figure of 1 hour and a quarter,
> but this was for very small corpses, probably babies or childrens.
> In this case, the 'less than an hour' surprised me a lot but accounting
> for what I eared in those interviews, the only explanation I have is
> that it means 'close to an hour' since it is no said 'half an hour'.
> If I have in the mind half an hour or 45 minutes I will say 30 minutes
> or 45 minutes, but if I have in the mind something like 50 to 60minutes
> than I can use the words 'less than an hour'. And since they give an
>  upper time of  4 hours, I must conclude that they talk about 2 extreme
> cases: a children in a ultra-modern crematory and a big corpse in a less
> develloped crematoria. The difference of temperature between Birkenau
> crematories and the one he refers is about the double, I gave often
>the reference (the report of the Polish War Crime Commision)
>
>  A patent however do not represent anything else than a supposition.
> One can write any optimistic estimation in a patent, if they are unable 
> to find anywhere on earth a place where the cremation of a normal body
> take less than an hour 1/4, than this mean that those crematories never
> gaves the results that were estimated. 

	I don't think we have to spend too much time on responding to
Mr.Keren, Mr.Beaulieu. He can squeal all he wants. Your recent
research into inquiring at a number of cremation facilities along with
the myriad of other considerations matched up to the Holocaust claims
shows that they are thoroughly idiotic.
	No matter what Mr.Keren says, it means nothing to undo the truth.
Only his racial compatriots and their tail wagging lackies would
except anything he tries to sling. Considering the whole world, their
opinions only amount to one little grain of sand on the beach.
	In fact, if you notice, he is the only one that comes out to
defend the Holocaust cremation rate claims. Even the others are smart
enough to avoid it. 
	The only thing Mr>Keren can do is respond, and the more he
responds with his insulting to mind of the world propositions the more
he is exposed and the more exposure the truth gets.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 10 21:13:48 PDT 1996
Article: 64299 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: First the sister, then the mom and pop, and now the wife
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:03:38 GMT
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	The Holocaust dedicated have gone on a rampage against Moran's
family. First Ken McVay comes out and says Moran's sister is a
"hooker", then Mr.Grynspan comes out and says Moran's mom and pop are
"pair of incestuous slugs" and now Mr.Morrison singles out Moran's
wife.

	Under "QUEBEC FED UP WITH PHONY ISRAELI REFUGEES"


Mr.Edeiken mumbling about something:

	"Don't just stand there polishing the floo0r with your knuckles,
l'il tommy. Give us somne specifics.  It should be hard for you to
name a few hundred."

Mr.Morrison responds:

	"Well, there's his wife."  
--
Keith Morrison
t08o@unb.ca


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 11 07:13:57 PDT 1996
Article: 64371 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Malzemueller Testifies About Chelmno Death Camp
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:15:43 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp 
>>  [Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>>  Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219]
>>  -----------------------------------------------------------------
>>  When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant,
>>  SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in
>>  his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert
>>  Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof
>>  [Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the
>>  plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated.  We were to
>>  keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have
>>  to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death penalty...
>>  
>
>>  
>>  When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando
>>  addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer 
>>  Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from
>>  Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. 
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  -Danny Keren.
>>  
>>>>>
>Just curious:  What happened to Bothmann, Plate, Lenz, and Haeberle?
>Did they survive the war, and corroborate the staements quoted here?

	I know you know the answer. All we have to do is wait and see
what Mr.Keren slings.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 11 12:16:14 PDT 1996
Article: 64424 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Can you question this answer?
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 14:25:34 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:


Moran's answer:
	Germany, France, England, Russia, Canada, United States and the
Christians, to name a few.

Moran's Question: 
	Who are some of those claimed to be responsible for, and/or,
complicity in the Holocaust?


Mittleman's cute little response:
    OK.  So?

Moran's reply:
	So, Nuremberg was to show German responsibility and now it is
time for the world to have a trial to prove the rest guilty.

>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 11 23:18:07 PDT 1996
Article: 64535 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Unitied States sailors got what they deserved.
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:47:28 GMT
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	Poor Annie Alpert.	

Kurt Stele wrote:

34 dead, 171 casualties.  A massacre all the same.
Where is the U.S.S. Liberty monument in Washington D.C.?  Where is the
Shpielberg films about it?


Annie Alpert replied:

"For the record, the USS Liberty was engaged in spying against our
ally (whether you like to admit it or not).  The Liberty was a spy
ship. Israel is our ally.  Read it and weep."


	Now all we have to do is wait and see if she thinks we should
bomb Israel for their spying on us, as reported in recent CIA report.

	Annie has posted she is not Jewish, that she has blonde hair and
blue eyes. Maybe she's one of those who fancies a job in Hollywood.

		  



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 07:34:25 PDT 1996
Article: 64571 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:03 GMT
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>: >Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >
>: >: 	Only McVay's lover could describe it that way.  It appears your really
>: >: do want to flaunt it.  Trying to make Alec jealous?  
>: >
>: >Oh, Kurt....
>: >
>: >Billy Goo Goo Ga Ga Anderson.
>
>Gee, Tom--I can't think of anything more childish that reposting
>somebody else's article, adding nothing to it, and changing the
>posters name to something silly.
>
>Can you?
>
>Bill

	It's not fitting?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 07:34:26 PDT 1996
Article: 64635 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Malzemueller Testifies About Chelmno Death Camp
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:17:28 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com writes:
>
># Just curious:  What happened to Bothmann, Plate, Lenz,
># and Haeberle? Did they survive the war, and corroborate
># the staements quoted here?
>
>I don't know; I recall that Bothmann was tried and executed,
>but I may be confusing him with Lange. I'd check Reitlinger;
>his book contains an appendix of some key Nazi figures and
>a short summary of what became of them. I think that Bothmann
>was high enough in the hierarchy to be mentioned there.
>
>Some other staff members from Chelmno, who testified,
>are Malzemueller, Burmeister, Laabs, and Schalling (who is, 
>BTW, interviewed in "Shoa"). You can also look in "Nazi Mass 
>Murder", Yale Uni. Press, which discusses Chelmno in some 
>detail; it also mentions the revolt of the Jewish 
>"sonderkommando" in which one SS-man was killed.
>
>You could contact the appropriate German authorities and
>ask, of course. Or you can do the Giwer and demand a URL,
>because, as we know, in Giwer's world, if there's no URL
>it means it never happened.

	Okay he has slung it.

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 07:34:27 PDT 1996
Article: 64648 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 13:35:24 GMT
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>
>The Crackow team has demonstrated that HCN was present in the homicidal
>gas chambers at levels above background.  Deniers have no explanation for 
>the presence of HCN in a facility built after the typhoid epidemic at
>levels above background.

>If the barracks in which they measured no HCN were never fumigated, why did
>they measure a higher level in the homicidal gas chambers?

	These barracks being the "background" levels. 

>If the barracks were fumigated, why did they measure a higher level in the
>homicidal gas chambers?

	Whatever levels they found, could be found almost anywhere. A
real, professional test would have taken samples from the ground in
the camp in general. This would be real "background" levels. You do
not take "background level" measurements from specificly chosen
locations.
  
>It should be noted that the researchers used a calibrated method and that
>they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not clear.
>Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.

		Prussian blue "origins not clear"? You mean when they found
it in high concentrations outside of known fumigation facilities it
was "not clear" as to its origin?. 


	[Here Mr.Green has given a reference to a URL for his further
evidence.  Mr.Green would prefer any readers to read what he has given
here and then surmise his reference alone should sway the mind. I am
posting my previous statement on the subject, right here on the spot,
below.]


ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca/pub/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report


>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>	"Remember the days of yore,


After about 8 or 9 pages of reporting on the research, here is all the
Cracow Report cared to summarize.

"Final Remarks"

"The  present study shows that in spite of the passage  of  a
considerable period of time (over 45 years) in the walls  of
the  facilities  which  once were in contact  with  hydrogen
cyanide  the vestigial amounts of the combinations  of  this
constituent  of Zyklon B have been preserved. This  is  also
true  of  the ruins of the former gas chambers. The  cyanide
compounds  occur in the building materials only locally,  in
the  places  where the conditions arose for their  formation
and persistence for such a long time."
	

	This is the statement I gave during the first exchange on it.

	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
were detected.
	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.
	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.
	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
O reincorporated into something else.  	
	Most likely whatever was found during these tests was probably
CN compounds created within a short time from the time the samples
were taken. New ones precipitate from the material like the white
niter or ammonium nitrate that we can see under bridges and tunnels,
or in caves, only to wash away and be replaced.

	The report does not make any conclusions on why such radically
different results can be arrived at from the same room or piece of
material, when we can suggest this is analogous to naturally occuring
precipitous action that tend to congregate in patches, having found
localized conditions for easy percipitation from within the interior
of the structures material.
	The report does not make a stab at explaining why such low
traces were found in fumigation chambers, in some cases being zero,
when we would expect to find high levels. Judging by photographs of
still extent fumigation chambers, the interiors of these facilities
have been protected from weather conditions.
	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
occur.

	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
story. 
	
                                              Tom Moran	 
	




From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 11:15:43 PDT 1996
Article: 90696 of can.general
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.general,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Zundel cancelled: Call, thank station management!
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:09:25 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>An American radio station which had broadcast Ernst Zundel's
>propaganda program for some time has, according to Zundel
>apologist Ingrid Rimland, tossed the program, and Mr. Zundel,
>into the bit bucket. 
>
>I urge you, one and all, to call the station and congratulate
>them on having the good sense to terminate this pollution.
>
>The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430.
>
>Ask for Mr. Morehead, and thank him for his action. You'll be
>glad you did.

	Poor McVay, he's so weak, cowardly and inept. He can't stand it
that his opposition might have their say.


>The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430.
>
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 12:39:47 PDT 1996
Article: 64676 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel air time.
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 15:02:54 GMT
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	Ken McVay, the Director of the anti-hate, Holocaust, Holocaust,
Holocaust website, Nizkor, gives rave reviews to a recent shut down of
a radio program in the East Coast called "Dissident Voices" that aired
the opinions of Ernst Zundel.

	McVay's lead to respond to, under, "Congratulations, KXEL and
Mr.Morehead"
	
>Ingrid Rimland:

>Why not call in to KXEL, ask for Mr. Morehead, swallow every harsh word
>that's crowding on your tongue and let your feelings known politely?  I
>know.  It isn't always easy.  But it's strategically smart to let our
>opposition know that we are men and women of breeding, substance, strength
>and principles and spine - and that as customers of products advertised on
>radio programs we don't like it one bit when we are told what we can listen
>to or not.

>The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430.


McVay:

"Thank you, Dr. Rimland, for providing this information. I will
call Mr. Morehead first thing tomorrow morning, and, on behalf
of the Nizkor Project, compliment him on the quality of his
programming changes.

The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430.

Unless I'm mistaken, several hundred other folks will do
precisely the same thing, given your consideration in
providing us with the numbers.... hmmm... 200 folks on your
super-secret-only-published-to-the-internet-ten-times mailing
list, and 70 million of us... I'm sure Mr. Morehead's in for a
satisfying and happy week!"

	
	Seems McVay thinks he has 70,000,000 people ready to go on line
in defense of his call to action for the nixing of a program called,
"Dissident Voices".

McVay continues:

"The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430.

Once again, thank you, Ms. Rimland, for bringing this
progressive policy to our attention, and for letting us know
that Mr. Morehead had the good sense to terminate Mr. Zundel's
air pollution without further ado."

	Seems McVay likes the idea of his opposition being stamped out by
means other than his capability to deal with their output by the
recognized academic, professional, empirical method.
	What can you say about someone that would prefer his opposition
not be given the chance to air their views? Doesn't he have the
confidence in his widely touted website? Doesn't he have the belief
his stuff is so awesome it can over come anything? Could this be a
sign that McVay subliminally, at least, knows he is corrupt? Is it an
admission he can't hang on his output alone, that he needs the acts of
censorship to prevail? Could it mean that McVay really knows,
subliminally at least, that the Holcoaust story is a lie?

"The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430."


McVay continues with the rave review:

"That's what I call quality programming!"

	What McVay really means, going by his immediately stated position
is, 'unprogramming', since we could assume he doesn't have any idea
about what they do air otherwise.

"The phone number is 319-233-3371 and fax is 319-233-7430."


	May I thank Ken McVay for his informing us he is sending his
compliments. I am faxing off three examples of his output here on
alt.revisionism, including the one commented on here
("Congratulations, KXEL and Mr.Morehead") so Mr.Morehead will know
what kind of mentality endorses the move. I will also post one
directed to the general staff.

	Poor McVay, he's so intellectually weak he can't cope. He rather
see his opposition not have access to airing their views. He would
rather have it that only his stuff gets out without having it opposed.
	Would he deny that his arch enemies of the past, Hitler and
Goebbels, might prefer the same?

-- 
Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 12:39:48 PDT 1996
Article: 64682 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoessler Testifies About Auschwitz
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:46:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

	Another title for this could be:

	'Everyone in Auschwitz knew about the gas chambers'

>Testimony of SS-Obersturmfuehrer Franz Hoessler  
>[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge
>and Company, 1949, p. 714-715]
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Everyone in the camp knew about the gas chamber at Auschwitz, but at 
>no time did I take part in the selection of prisoners who were to go to
>the gas chambers and then be cremated. Whilst I was there selection of
>prisoners for the gas chambers was done by Dr. Klein, Dr. Mengele and
>other young doctors whose names I do not know. I have attended these
>parades, but my job was merely to keep order. Often women were paraded
>naked in front of the doctors and persons selected by the doctors were
>sent to the gas chamber.
>
> .
	One of Mr.Keren's usual gaps.
> .
>
>I made many complaints to Hoess about the way people were being sent to
>the gas chamber, but I was told it was not my business.
>
>

	He means end of what was quoted. Hardly what anyone with a
reasonable mind would accept as sufficient testimony. 


>-Danny Keren.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 12:39:49 PDT 1996
Article: 64683 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Victims and Murderers: Photographs from Belsen Camp
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:47:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>The following photos are in
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?camps/bergen-belsen/images
>
>They are all scanned from "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips,
>William Hodge and Company, 1949.  
>
>Belsen01.jpg: A Mass grave in Belsen camp.
>Belsen02.jpg: A bulldozer being used to bury corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen03.jpg: Emaciated corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen04.jpg: Plump, overweight SS-women bury skeletal corpses in Belsen.
>Belsen05.jpg: The corpse of a child is thrown into a mass grave in Belsen.

	What the Allies found after entering the camp that had been
deprived of the necessary supplies for months on end. No evidence for
any intentional Holocaust.
         
>The following photos, of some of the SS staff in Belsen (and before
>that, in Auschwitz-Birkenau) are in:
>       
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/b/bormann.juana/images/
>
>Bormann.jpg: Juana Bormann, murderous SS-woman (served in Auschwitz 
>             and Belsen). 
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/h/hoessler.franz/images/:
>
>Hoessler.jpg: SS-officer Franz Hoessler in front of a truckload of
>              corpses in Belsen.
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/k/kramer.joseph/images/
>
>Kramer.jpg:   Joseph Kramer, who served as commandant of Auschwitz
>              II (Birkenau) and later Belsen.                       
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 12:39:50 PDT 1996
Article: 64686 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'There Was No Longer Any Escape'
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:47:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Testimony of Hans-Heintz Schutt, SS-officer at Sobibor
>[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 240]
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>Getting the detainees into the gas chambers did not always proceed
>smoothly. The detainees would shout and weep and they often refused to 
>get inside. The guards helped them on by violence. These guards were
>Ukrainian volunteers who were under the authority of members of
>the SS Kommando. Members of the SS held key positions in the camp, i.e.
>one SS man oversaw the unloading, a further SS man led the detainees
>into the reception camp, a further SS man was responsible for leading
>the detainees to the undressing area, a further SS man oversaw the
>confiscation of valuables and a further member of the Kommando had
>to drive the detainees into the so-called tube which led to the
>extermination camp. Once they were inside the so-called tube, which
>led them from the hut to the extermination camp, there was no longer
>any escape.

	We take note of the date of the book in which the "testimony" is
cited, 1988. Keep in mind that most of the Holocaust books referred by
the Holocaust dependent are from 1980 on.

	"Testimony"? Where? Doesn't say.

	A "tube" from a "hut"? Will we ever have a detailed, even a
slightly detailed description of this tube? No.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 12:39:51 PDT 1996
Article: 64687 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mass Murder At Belsen
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:47:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>All excerpted from "The Belsen Trial":
>
>Testimony of Mr. Harold Le Druillence from Jersey, former prisoner 
>in Belsen, who was "employed" as corpse carrier there:

	As to any talk about Belsen, the camp was in Germany and is not
part of the Holocaust story that is accepted as valid today even by
the Simon Wiesenthal Center. This ridiculous "testimony" doesn't even
rate dissecting. It only rates a single question and comment at the
end.   

>(p. 60-61)
>
>We made our way along the central road towards the burial pit. Along
>this road, stationed at intervals, were orderlies to see that the
>flow of dead to the pits carried on smoothly; they were particulalry
>numerous near the kitchen and the resevoir water. One of the most
>cruel things in this particular work was the fact that we passed
>this water regularly on every trip, and although we were dying
>of thirst we were not allowed to touch it or get anywhere near.
>
>[...]
>
>I would like you to picture what this endless chain of dead going
>to the pits must have looked like for about five days from sunrise
>to sunset. How many were buried I have no idea. It must have been
>vast numbers - certainly five figures. 
>
>You didn't dare to fall out, but many collapsed on the way - just
>lay dead by the roadside, or died. They in turn were lifted by a
>team of four and taken to the pits. People died like flies on the
>way to these pits. They did not have the necessary energy to drag
>even those very light bodies. A man who faltered was usually hit
>on the head.

>(p. 62)
>
>I saw plenty of shooting, usually for no reason at all. Sometimes
>there was a hidden reason which we learned of only after many
>dozen had been killed; for example, at the north entrance of
>the mortuary yard many people had been killed before we realized
>that the particular guard in charge of that gateway wanted to
>see people go through at the double dragging the dead body
>behind. He was a member of the Hungarian guard [1], but the
>shooting was not confined to Hungarians; it was simply terrible,
>hundreds were shot per day.

	Did anyone ever do a forensic dig to show there was in fact a
mass grave that had "five figures" of bodies in it? If there ever was,
we should expect there would have been righteous documentation of the
investigation and findings. 
=======================================================================

>[1] Ethnic Germans ("Volkdeutche") from Hungary who were
>    recruited to the SS.
>
>
>Testimony of SS-doctor, Obersturmfuherer Fritz Klein (p. 717):
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Whilst at Belsen I made several complaints to Kommandant Kramer
>about the conditions there. I was told that I was only a doctor
>and that it was nothing to do with me. Three days before the
>British came, when I took over the camp, I had a talk with
>Kramer about the conditions. I told Kramer that the corpses
>should be removed, and that water should be supplied to 
>prisoners as many were dying from thirst. Kramer said he did
>not take orders from me.

	When? It doesn't say. Only this once, out of several months or
years? It doesn't say. Was the doctor trying to save his own hide? The
testimony is but a paragraph here.	
=====================================================================

>Testimony of Herta Ehlert, a member of the SS unit at Belsen (p. 709):
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>The conditions in Belsen were a shame and a disgrace. I consider
>that the people chiefly responsible were Kramer the Kommandant,
>Dr. Horstmann, Untersturmfuehrer Klipp, who was for some time
>Kramer's second in command, and Haupsturfuehrer Vogler, who 
>worked in Kramer's office and was responsible for food supply.
>I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions, among
>other reasons, because on one occasion when I complained of the
>increasing death rate to Kramer he replied, "let them die, why
>should you care?".

	Of course we have to recognize any talk here would be about the
conditions near the end of the war when the supplies were cut off and
resulted in what the Allies found when they entered the camp. Is the
quote "let them die, why should you care" true? Who knows. One might
even say yes. It was coming from someone who had tried valiantly to do
what he could for the prisoners under the conditions and it seemed
like a hopeless situation.
======================================================================
>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 12:39:52 PDT 1996
Article: 64688 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wetzel Writes Lohse About the 'Gassing Apparatuses'
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:47:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Letter from Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 25, 1941
>[Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University of California
>Press, 1984, p. 70]
>------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Of course all documents that are presented for evidence for the
Holocaust must be available for authenticity. Here the document is
merely stated to have come from a book. We should also take note of
publishing date, "1984", making the book part of the sudden onslaught
of Holocaust books beginning around 1980.

	We also have to recognize that if this document was true, then we
have to recognize that correspondence was taking place about any
workings of "The Final Solution", that planning was taken place that
emanated from the high command. Yet for all the camps that are
generally set forth in the Holocaust story, none of them have even a
smidgen of paper trail to show there was a Reich master plan, and yet
here we have a document citing the "Chief Executive Officer" of the
"Fuhrer's Chancellery". All very pat. As we will see, other big names
are drawn in.  

>With regard to my letter of 18 October 1941, please be informed that
>Oberdiensleiter [Chief Executive Officer] Brack from the Fuehrer's
>Chancellory has stated his readiness to assist in the construction of
>the necessary accommodations and gassing apparatuses, so they must
>first be constructed.

	So right here we have a "gassing apparatus" mentioned in the same
letter as the Fuhrers's Chancellery. Very convenient. The writer of
the letter, Weztel, seems to be informing the recipient about this
Brack for the first time since Wetzel has to inform him of Brack's
position and yet the letter in general implies that, Lohse the
recipient, is familiar with the history of described events and that
it has been an on going situation, the letter being only a piece out
of the middle. 	

> Brack's view is that, since construction of the
>apparatuses within the Reich would present far greater difficulties
>than on-site production, the most expedient course of action is to
>send his people directly to Riga, in particular his chemist Dr.
>Kallmeyer, who will take the necessary steps from there.
>Oberdiensleiter Brack further points out that the procedure in
>question is not without its hazards, and that therefore special safety
>precautions are needed. Under these circumstances, I ask you to
>contact Oberdiensleiter Brack in the Fuehrer's Chancellory through
>your higher SS and Police leader.

	Just in case we didn't take any special notice of the gas/Hitler
connection we are given it again. What kind of gas is not stated. Here
we have a chemist being dispatched. Since this letter is dated 1941, a
year or two before Auschwitz camp commandant Ho'ss and his second in
command decided to use Zyklon B on their own initiative we may assume
the gas would be carbon monoxide from the basic Holocaust source of
diverted exhaust from a combustion engine. So where would the special
needs for a chemist fit in?

> Please request from him the
>dispatching of the chemist Dr. Kallmeyer and any further assistants
>that are needed. I might further point out that Sturmbannfuehrer
>Eichmann, the adviser on Jewish affairs in the Reich main security
>office, is in complete accord with this procedure. According to the
>information received here from Sturmbannfuehrer Eichmann, camps for
>Jews will be set up in Riga and Minsk, where Jews from the Altreich
>[Germany proper] might also be sent.

	Now the letter has Eichmann in on the story. Not only this, the
recipient of the letter is informed as to Eichmann's position and his
location of operations, the "Reich main security office".
(I wouldn't be surprised if a letter exist from Eichmann that
describes the movement of Jews. The letter under discussion could very
well have been written with other letters in mind that could be
pointed to later as a exhibits for confirmation.) 

> Jews are currently being
>evacuated from the Altreich to Lodz and other camps, from which those
>fit for work will be transferred to work forces in the east. Given the
>present situation, Jews who are not fit for work can be eliminated
>without qualms through use of the Brack device. 

	The "Brack device". Was the device invented by Brack, the "Chief
Executive Officer" in the Fuhrer's Chancellery? Does a description of
it exist anywhere? Or is it a basic Holocaust "gas van" that simply
has a hose coming from the exhaust of a truck to a compartment on the
back? Seems it is some kind of special "device", since they talk about
it being specially built. Does anyone have any shipping records to
present that would show any equipment out side of the normal stuff
shipped to Russia?   

>Incidents such as
>those that took place during the shootings of Jews in Vilna, according
>to a report I have on my desk, can hardly be sanctioned, keeping in
>mind that the executions were undertaken openly, and the new
>procedures assure that such incidents will no longer be possible. Jews
>fit for work, on the other hand, will be transported to work forces in
>the east. That the men and women in this latter group must be kept
>apart from each other goes without saying. Please keep me informed as
>to any further measures you take.

	Whatever the device is supposed to have been, we can wonder why
it, supposedly conceived of in 1941, wasn't used in the ensuing
process of mass extermination at all the major camps, instead of all
the different camp personal being left on their own to conceive,
design and construct whatever was used.

	In the end, considering Holocaust excuses of why there is no
record of a German master plan or orders from the top, that it was all
done verbally or records were destroyed, we have the Fuhrer, Eichmann,
gas and Jews mentioned all in one letter.
	    


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 12:39:52 PDT 1996
Article: 64701 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran called KXEL, talked to Mr.Morehead
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:21:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Ingrid Rimland had posted a note about a radio station, KXEL,
that used to have a program, "Dissident Voices" and after a new owner
took over it was banished. 

	Ms.Rimland had ask her friends to call the station and make known
their views on the move. Ken McVay, posted his applause for the nixing
of the program.

	Moran got a hold of Mr.Morehead, the new owner, or whatever, and
informed him his station was the subject of controversy on the
Internet.

	Mr.Morehead ask him who the parties were, and Moran filled him on
the sequence. 

	Moran ask him why he had made the move to stop the program that
went merely by the name of "Dissident Voices" and he said it was a
"difference of philosophy".

	We didn't get into exactly what was aired on the program, but
Moran wonders what the "difference of philosophy" might be since we
can suppose many different topics were discussed.

	Evidently, Mr.Morehead simply means his "philosophy" is against
dissident voices in general. Possibly Mr.Morehead's philosophy may be
more in tune with politically and socially correct opinions,
regardless of what they may be.

	Mr.Morehead ask Moran on his opinion of "Dissident Voices" and
Moran told him he couldn't say as to the program itself, but he did
say the country needed dissident voices to combat what the standard
medias give. Moran mentioned on example, and this was the
un-employment statistics given in the papers, saying they were lies,
that it isn't 4.6% as the government releases say, but more like 25%.
Mr.Morehead didn't say anything but a grufty "Uh".
 
	Anyway, we don't have anything else to go by as to why
Mr.Morehead chose to banish the program, except by what he said.

	I told him I would send him copies of the sequence of the
controversy and he welcomed that. I also told him I would send him
some examples of McVay/Nizkor stuff so he would know what kind of
mentality supported his policy.

	In the end run all Moran can say is, 'So much for KXEL and
Mr.Morehead'. 	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 14:17:42 PDT 1996
Article: 149187 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <32357c74.4156833@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <32357c74.4156833@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:43:12 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 14:30:38 PDT 1996
Article: 64749 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinions on Nuremberg
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:45:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
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References: <508501$cgq@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <50jmkb$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <322dc389.1924736@news.pacificnet.net> <51148n$l9q@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>	Now that you are admitting that the first material, that which
>>was used at Nuremberg, is ambiguous
>
>No, not at all. Learn to read. Learn to think. Then write. I have made a statement
>about the main sources used for the Holocaust-historiography. I have made no
>statement about the value of the documents of the Nuremberg trials. The implication
>is yours, not mine. (What a bunch of pea-brains)
>
>> maybe you can introduce your other
>>evidence, the "tons and tons of unamgiguous material".
>>	Go for it. Just show a few pounds of the "tons and tons".
>
>You won't expect me type in the annotations of nearly every research paper on
>aspects of the Holocaust. Go to the library and look for yourself.

	You did specify "unambiguous". You did say "tons and tons". And I
ask for just a few pounds. How about a couple of ounces? "Unambiguous"
that is.

>Nele



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 14:30:38 PDT 1996
Article: 64750 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.slack,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany blocks access to XS4ALL
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:45:35 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>modemac@tiac.net (Modemac) wrote:
>
>>From: dst+@cs.cmu.edu (Dave Touretzky)
>>Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
>>Subject: Germany blocks access to XS4ALL
>>Date: 5 Sep 1996 06:17:59 GMT
>>Message-ID: <50lran$1gn@casaba.srv.cs.cmu.edu>
>>
>>The following message is forwarded from Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship
>>mailing list.  Germany is moving to block access to XS4ALL because it
>>doesn't like the politics of one of the web sites hosted there.
>>
>>================================================================
>>
>>Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:15:42 -0700 (PDT)
>>From: Declan McCullagh 
>>To: fight-censorship@vorlon.mit.edu
>>Subject: Re: German Internet Censorhip: http://www.xs4all.nl
>
>>(As background for more recent subscribers to fight-censorship, this isn't
>>the first time the German government has tried this. A similar move came
>>early this year when German prosecutors tried to cut connections to
>>webcom.com in California, where some of Ernst Zundel's Nazi "Holocaust
>>Revisionist" propaganda was hosted. I and a few other folks including Rich
>>at Stanford and Blake at Penn held our noses and mirrored it around the
>>country, prompting the Gemans to lift the ban. I had thought the German
>>prosecutors smarter than to try this again. I guess I was wrong.)
>              
>	I'd be interested in seeing exactly what the "Nazi" material is
>that you "held your noses to".
>
>	I realize you are showing your concern for freedom of speech, I
>just want to see if it's a feign to press an opinion under that guise.
> 
>                                                    Tom Moran

	Maybe he's too busy devising opinion attachments and or
disclaimers to his releases on censorship. 

>>My global Net-censorship roundup is at:
>>
>>  http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/
>>
>>-Declan
>>
>>
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>fight-censorship is at http://www.eff.org/~declan/fight-censorship/
>>
>>--
>>                 Reverend Modemac (modemac@tiac.net)
>>   First Online Church of "Bob"      "There is no black and white."
>> PGP Key Fingerprint: 47 90 41 70 B4 5B 06 90 7B 38 4E 11 8A ED 80 DF
>>               URL: http://www.tiac.net/users/modemac/
>>   (FINGER modemac@sunspot.tiac.net for a FREE SubGenius Pamphlet!)
>>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 12 19:37:24 PDT 1996
Article: 64829 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Work Camp' With Five Crematoriums?
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:34:13 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>In continuation to the previous thread, I would still
>like our "revisionist scholars" to explain the following:
>
>Why does a "work camp" need five huge crematoriums with
>52 cremation furnaces?
>
>Did anyone ever hear of a "work camp" with such incredible
>cremation capacity?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.

	That might be good question if 52 ovens could be proven, and that
they were used for cremating human beings. You know the story
Mr.Keren, there isn't anything to show it.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 09:39:21 PDT 1996
Article: 65056 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: thought for the day...
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:36:49 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>
>"When someone has in the mind the liquidation of hundreds of thousands
> of people, he's hardly ordering colorimetric gas testers by bunch
> of ten"
>
>-Confucius

	This sounds like something Confusius would say. I'll bet Plato
and Socrates would wonder about it too.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 09:39:22 PDT 1996
Article: 65057 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.general,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Zundel cancelled: Call, thank station management!
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:38:38 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>Here we disagree, Ken.  If everybody who thinks that it's a good idea for 
>>somebody to decline to carry Zundel's spewings were to call and spend even one 
>>minute on the phone with Mr. Morehead, he'd be doing nothing else but 
>>answering calls for the rest of the millenium.  
>
>Alas, the world just doesn't work that way. When I spoke to
>the secretary at the station a few moments ago, she told me
>that mine was the only call that had come through to thank the
>station for removing Zundel from the air.

	But wait a minute. Didn't McVay say he had "200" to "70,000,000"
people on his side and here it turns out he is the only one who
called? But what about the other idio --, er people, VanAlstine,
"Gandhi", "McFee", etc. 

>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 09:39:23 PDT 1996
Article: 65060 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:36:14 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

Kind of makes you think, doesn't--what would these people accept as
evidence?  Mass graves, cyanide traces on walls, and photographs
are all physical evidence--but they don't establish intent (of course,
physical evidence never establishes intent.)  Confessions, letters,
journals, personal testimony and official government documents
establish intent, but they aren't physical evidence, so they don't
count.  On the one hand, only physical evidence is any good; on the
other, we can only accept evidence which establishes intent.  Just
depends on what day of the week it is. One wonders if a signed,
notarized letter from Hitler reading "Dear Heinrich, Please gather up
Joe, Hermann and the boys and kill all the Jews.  Schnitzel party at
Eva's place afterward.  Love  Adolph"  would do the trick.  Probably
not.

Let's hear it, Tommy--what would it take to convince you that the 
Holocaust actually took place, just as every historian in the world
believes it did?  Spell it out for us.

Bill 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 09:39:24 PDT 1996
Article: 65064 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Work Camp' With Five Crematoriums?
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:09:56 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <32389d78.1531089@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >In continuation to the previous thread, I would still
>> >like our "revisionist scholars" to explain the following:
>> >
>> >Why does a "work camp" need five huge crematoriums with
>> >52 cremation furnaces?
>> >
>> >Did anyone ever hear of a "work camp" with such incredible
>> >cremation capacity?
>> >
>> >
>> >-Danny Keren.
>> 
>> That might be good question if 52 ovens could be proven, and that
>> they were used for cremating human beings. You know the story
>> Mr.Keren, there isn't anything to show it.
>
>Oh, my. Yet annother banal and indefensible Moranic(tm) proclamation by
>Moran. As to the existance of the "52 ovens" (52 _muffles_, atcually), if
>one where to examine photos, drawings, and testimonies regarding the
>Kremas, one would see that:
>
>In Bauleitung drawings 4287 [a & b] the three double-muffle furnaces are
>shown in the floor plan of Krema I. (_Technique_, pp.156-157.) 

	Drawings?

>In Bauleitung drawing 933 the five triple-muffle furnaces are shown in the
>floor plan of Krema II. (Ibid. pp.276-277.) 

	Drawing?

>In Photo 5 [PMO neg. no. 287 Ludwik series and 20995/495 Kamann series]
>the five triple-muffle furnaces of Krema II are shown. (Ibid. p.334.) 

	Krema II, photographs?

>In Photo 6 [PMO neg. no. 291 Ludwik series] the five triple-muffle
>furnaces of Krema II are also shown . (Ibid. p.334.) 

	Krema II, photographs?

>In Bauleitung drawing 1678 the one eight-muffle furnace is shoen in the
>floor plan of Krema IV. (Ibid. pp.392-393.) 

	Drawing?

>In Photo 169 the demolished (eight-muffle) furnace of Krema V, with human
>remains in it, is shown (_Auschwitz: a history in photgraphs_, p.157.). 

	Photo, "Demolished" Krema V? Photo, one muffle, with one human
remains?

>According to Henryk Tauber, a surviving Sonderkommado who worked in the
>Krematorien: "...In Krematorium I there were three two-muffle
>furnaces...[In Krema II] there were five furnaces, each fired by two
>hearths. On the other side, where the exit from the lift was, were the
>muffles, three per furnace....Krematorium III was identical in
>construction to II, except for the internal differences that the trolleys
>for charging the corpses were never used there....Krematorium IV and V
>were built on the same plan and situated symetrically on either side of
>the road running between construction stage BII and Mexico in the
>direction of the new sauna. These Krematorien were each fitted with
>two-four muffle furnaces." (_Technique_,  pp.483-498.) 

	And then suddenly testimony with a different story to tell than
the "photos and drawings?

>Also according to Tabuer human corpses were incinerated in these furnaces,
>as is indicated by the following phrases: "...the corpses were introduced
>into the furnace...because they were the bodies of very thin people they
>burned very slowly....fat people burn much faster....First we put in two
>adults, then as many children as the muffle could contain." (Ibid.
>pp.483-495.) 

>Given all this, it is quite evident that the 52 muffles existed in the
>Krematorien at Auschwitz. Equally evident is that human beings were
>incinerated in them. Supremely evident is that Moran has not examined
>photos, drawings, and testimonies regarding the Kremas, but instead
>continues to wallow like an anti-Semitic pig in his ignorance and
>prejudices. 

	Maybe you should have included photo from Nora Levin's book, "The
Holocaust", a single oven with caption, "... and a furnace, probably
>from  Auschwitz, for burning bodies".

	The caption starts off, "An estimated two million Jews were
exterminated at Auschwitz ..."

	You say the source of all this you have put forth is from a book
titled "Technique"?
	Give a little more info so I can see if it's available for
dissecting.
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 09:39:25 PDT 1996
Article: 65068 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.general,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: jewish boys
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:48:24 GMT
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"Angelica S. Bharat"  wrote:

>hi, my name is angelica and I am a gentile with an odd affinity for Jewish 
>boys.  Do you have any advice for me?

	Are you looking for help like say, a drug addict?



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 17:53:54 PDT 1996
Article: 65199 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran speaks of himself in the third person WASRe: Moran called KXEL, talked to Mr.Morehead
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:39:12 GMT
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Annie Alpert  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>>         In the end run all Moran can say is, 'So much for KXEL and
>> Mr.Morehead'.
>
>Tom, WHY are you talking about yourself in the third person?  What a
>conceit!

	Maybe that's the only way you see it, or more correctly, the way
you want to see it. Now that you have gotten that of your 'mind', any
other comment?

	When it suits the purpose 


>-- 
>Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 18:19:42 PDT 1996
Article: 65216 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Unitied States sailors got what they deserved.
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 12:47:46 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	Poor Annie Alpert.	

>Kurt Stele wrote:

>34 dead, 171 casualties.  A massacre all the same.
>Where is the U.S.S. Liberty monument in Washington D.C.?  Where is the
>Shpielberg films about it?


>Annie Alpert replied:

>"For the record, the USS Liberty was engaged in spying against our
>ally (whether you like to admit it or not).  The Liberty was a spy
>ship. Israel is our ally.  Read it and weep."


>	Now all we have to do is wait and see if she thinks we should
>bomb Israel for their spying on us, as reported in recent CIA report.

>	Annie has posted she is not Jewish, that she has blonde hair and
>blue eyes. Maybe she's one of those who fancies a job in Hollywood.

	On reading Annie's applause for the Jewish state's wanton attack
on our USS Liberty I think of "Tokyo Rose" and "Mata Hari".		  
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 19:35:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65233 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocausters Support Censorship, Vindicate Nazism
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 01:47:51 GMT
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>
>Several Holocausters have defended the imprisoning of Gerhard Lauck and
>the nixing of Zundel from KXEL.  They don't see anything wrong with them.
>
>They justify it on the ground that it is "legal" to do so in both cases.  
>
>If something being legal means it is justified, then the Nazis removing
>Jews from German society was justified.  
>
>After all, it certainly was "legal" to do so.
>
>Indeed it was justified, as the Germans finally ripped the lid off a
>little nation of clever aliens who always pose as "citizens" in all
>countries they inhabit but whose main allegiance, as always, is only to
>their own.
>
>Kurt STele

	A legitimate point of, If P, then Q, logic. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 22:44:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65248 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATORY RATES SHOW "GASSING" IS PROPAGANDA LIES!
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:23:13 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/
>
>furnace-capacity.jpg
>
>Letter from Jahrling to Kammler, stating that the combined
>crematoriums in Auschwitz-Birkenau can cremate 4,756 corpses
>in 24 working hours.

>-Danny Keren.

	Fifty two (52) cremas said to have been at Auschwitz. 52 into
4756 = 91 a day each oven. 91 into 24 hours = almost 4 an hour. About
one every 15 minutes. Figuring unload time and reload time we might
say one every 10 minutes. Present day cremations take an average of 1
1/2 to 2 hours to reduce just one body to ashes.

	You might see a reply here that the Germans only burnt the bodies
to charred bones. Even this would not be accomplished. If it was only
ten minutes we would still probably have 80 to 90 percent of the body
mass still in existence after the period.

	Cremation rates are the most ridiculous aspects of the Holocaust
farce.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 13 22:45:00 PDT 1996
Article: 65254 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Roberts' and His Stupid Lies, Again (Re: Stumpy is easily a
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:14:50 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Jeffrey  writes:
>
># "I talked to hundreds of people who serviced and
># operated the crematoria," he continued, but the people
># who operated gas chambers were impossible to find "
>
>You never give up on this stupidity, "Roberts"?
>
>Stark? Bauer? Fuchs? Findeisen? Burmeister? Hoffman?
>Kramer? Laabs?
>
>Just some of the people who spoke at length about how
>they operated the gas chambers?

	"Spoke at length"? No, that isn't the way it happens, is it
Mr.Keren? Your the master poster of "eyewitness" testimony. It's
always short little burst, often with spaces where you have unseleted
something. Go ahead, put the 'relevant' testimony out here so it can
be exposed.
	The longer the testimonies, the more they can be undone.
>Doesn't the fact that you continue to post a proven
>lie, bother you? But then again, you're a "revisionist";
>you're supposed to lie.
>
>But you use stupid lies, which are very easy to refute.
>can't you try harder, dummkopf?
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 01:29:05 PDT 1996
Article: 65294 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Main Convincing Point for Revisionism
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:10:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <323a0f63.3517671@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	I find one certain aspect of the Holocaust controversy that tilts
>ears and minds in the direction of the revisionists side of the story,
>right away.  Once this is shown, they become very attentive. 
>	The aspect is - the presentation of the Holocaust prosecution
>efforts to block any further discussion on the matter.  
>	Any excuses for refusing to discuss it, any manifestation of the
>child logic, all the charges of "hate" and "racism" can not stamp out
>the basic prevalent human nature to be suspicious of someone who
>professes something and then not only refuses to discuss it, but
>actually tries to stop any further discussion. 

	As to any comments about discussions on alt.revisionism denying
there is a process of refusing to debate, these people out here are
not the principles involved. The challenge for debate is directed
towards the likes of Simon Wiesenthal and Debra Lipstadt. 

	The challenges for debate are directed towards it being discussed
in the papers and on campuses. All this is refused and even challenged
with massive concerted foot stompin out raged indignation that keeps
it form happening.

	There are many intrigues in trying to have debate censored in the
U.S. and the world. 

	Just a few months ago the U.S. House of Representatives voted 420
to 0 to condemn any Holocaust revisionism. They didn't come to do it
on their own. It was from the same process of a concerted foot stompin
out cry of righteous indignation by the Jewish community who has
tantamount assess to these legislators. The only votes in congress
that ever get any 420 to 0, 95 to 0, 92 to 0, any overwhelming votes
are those that benefit Jewish causes. Check the records. There's the
story.
	Then there is the record of those themselves, editorials, letters
to the editors, full page ads.
	For any one to come out here and deny there is a concerted energy
to keep the Holocaust story from dispute is like them telling you the
sky ain't blue on a sunny day.

	You will also come to recognize how revisionist are called
"anti-Semitic", "neo-Nazis" and "racists". These terms are used to
drive the Holocaust deniers into the realms of the politically and
socially incorrect, therefore a taboo subject.

	Keep watching. There have been post that show it in their own
words, and they will come again.
>	
>ed. 



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 01:29:06 PDT 1996
Article: 65328 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATORY RATES SHOW "GASSING" IS PROPAGANDA LIES!
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:26:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/
>
>furnace-capacity.jpg
>
>Letter from Jahrling to Kammler, stating that the combined
>crematoriums in Auschwitz-Birkenau can cremate 4,756 corpses
>in 24 working hours.


>-Danny Keren.

	Mr.Keren would prefer to direct people to some Nizkor URL instead
of performing the service of presenting the stuff out here, directly.
This is because he wants you to see the reference and say to yourself,
'Oh he has the proof' hoping you will just accept that on it's own. He
knows the referred to evidence is absurd.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 08:51:05 PDT 1996
Article: 65350 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Killing two birds with one stone
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:19:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>I am posting this notice for the information of any browsers who may
>have been following any of the threads between myself and Mark Van
>Alstine and Rajiv Gandi.  I am serving notice that there shall be no further
>direct communication between myself and either of these two people on this web-site until
>that time arrives when they desist  from the use of profanity and  name-calling, and decide
>to abide by common rules of courteous conduct when replying to a posting
>on this web-site.  The use of vilifying tactics is no argument, but a sign of
>frustration and an admission of defeat.  Until such time as when the above-named
>individuals decide to comport themselves with dignity, they shall to all intents and
>purposes be ignored.  This is not the Wally George show, nor Howdy Doody's Peanut
>Gallery, where a circus gallery of cheer-leaders effectively cuts off any attempts at debate
>by shouting down a person who  makes a statement.  Indeed, if every person
>from Nizkor should decide to employ such tactics tomorrow, I shall not be driven from this
>web-site.  What I propose to do,  rather than respond individually to either of these 2
>persons, or any other such person who may decide to use these vilification tactics in the future,
>is simply  avoid any confrontational dialogue.  If they happen to post something relevant to
>the subject under discussion, then I shall undertake to address the points in question under a 
>new post.  

	Why bother with them any way? VanALstine's stuff is easy to
contend with if he tries to respond, and "Rajiv Gandhi", his words
speak for him. Just don't respond. Their stuff stands nice enough
alone.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 08:51:06 PDT 1996
Article: 65409 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:59:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <323ac7fa.5079683@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <506e8f$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <50tje2$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>  <51a9pj$gl3@colossus.holonet.net> 
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kate@accessone.com (Kathleen Mulhern) wrote:

>In article <51a9pj$gl3@colossus.holonet.net>, steven@csnsys.com (Steven
>Casas) wrote:
>
>*And before you call me an Anti-semite for criticising your spelling, I'll just 
>*post my standard response.....
>   <>


>Got anything to say about the blue print text and cites I posted proving
>the existence of Zyklon B gas chambers at Auschwitz?  I thought not.

	I must have missed this "proving". Could you post it, or refer to
where I might find it?

>
>-- 
>kate@accessone.com
>"Most people don't have the luxury of living to be 80 years old, 
>so it's hard for me to feel sorry for them."
>                    -Sen. Phil Gramm, during a floor debate on social security.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 10:00:54 PDT 1996
Article: 150514 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,israel.jewstudies,alt.revisionism,alt.messianic,alt.fan.jesus-christ,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: cmsg cancel <323ac5dc.4537244@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <323ac5dc.4537244@news.pacificnet.net>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 10:04:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65413 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,israel.jewstudies,alt.revisionism,alt.messianic,alt.fan.jesus-christ,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: the deciside charge aginst the jews
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:39:15 GMT
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elieshed@netvision.net.il wrote:

>
>I would like to know who is the inventor of the christian doctorin of
>the deciside : that all the jews everywhere and at all times are 
>collectively and equaly responsible for the killng of Jesus.
>where the writers of the new testment the inventors of the doctorin
>or the church fathers? 
> is this  doctorine still centeral in christianity today ( after this 
>doctorin had caused the horors of the holocust) or each church
>( the catholics ,the protestants , the Greek ortodocs) is diffrent 
>in her opinion on this doctorin ?
>Eli eshed 
>


	I believe any original reference to any Jewish complicity in the
death of Christ is what is written in the "Scriptures".

	The idea that any Jews today are responsible for this event is
ridiculous.

	On the other hand we could conclude from what it says in the New
Testament, that it was a Hebrew mental state that brought on the
lynching.

	As to what is said now days, a new revised Bible has been
published with all the references to Hebrew complicity deleted.

	Whether the revisers took it on their own to make these
particular revisions or succumbed to a concerted foot stompin display
of self righteous indignation is up for grabs.

	Could it be the word of god is subject to political and social
correctness? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 10:04:58 PDT 1996
Article: 65419 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What do they do with the $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:54:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>		
>	The Jews have collected billions of $$$$$, hundreds of billions
>$$$$$, from exploiting the Holocaust story.
>
>	What do they do with this $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$?
>
>	Well we could suppose much of it has gone to the Jewish state.
>
>	And, we might suppose much of it has been pooled to acquire U.S.
>holdings, from apartment houses to major buildings to U.S.
>corporations and major medias.

	Hitler started WW II, in a way. The Holocaust story rose from the
WW II story. The Holocaust story instigated the establishment of
Israel. The Jewish state gave rise to it's "lobby" network here in the
United States. The network infiltrated every aspect of American life.
The result indicates Hitler won the war.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 10:04:58 PDT 1996
Article: 65422 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:05:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	
>	A "goyim" is a non-Jew.
	Meaning culturally and, and, and, and - genetically.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 10:54:18 PDT 1996
Article: 65438 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,can.general,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Zundel cancelled: Call, thank station management!
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:55:11 GMT
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Lines: 7
Message-ID: <323ae220.11772734@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <518b0p$b45@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <518bek$b7g@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <519c51$her@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <323963d7.317191@news.pacificnet.net> 
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>I sent a fax, you twit.

	"Rajiv Gandhi" while faxing his support for the nixing of Zundel
>from  radio air time got his tie stuck in the machine and off he went
too.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 11:51:52 PDT 1996
Article: 65445 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Human skin LAMPSHADE STORY A CRUEL AND VULGAR HOAX
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:44:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article , Jeffrey
> wrote:
>
>> Some reporter had called her [Ilse Koch] the "Bitch of Buchenwald" had
>> [also] written that she had lampshades made out of human skin in her
>> house. And that was introduced in court, where it was absolutely proven
>> that the lampshades were made out of goatskin....
>
>[snip]
>
>In light of Jeffrey's claims one might wish to consider the following, a
>US Army pathologist's report:
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>  Seventh Medical Laboratory
>  APO 403, c/o PK, New York, N.Y.
>  Section of Pathology 
>
>  25 May 1945
>
>
>  SUBJECT:  Identification of Tattoed Skin Hides 
>
>  TO     :  COMMANDING GENERAL, Third U. S. Army 
>            (ATTN:   JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL) 
>
>
>  1.  There were submitted to this laboratory section for 
>  examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. GIVIN 
>  from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of 
>  Case 81 T.J.A. 
>
>  2.  The description follows: 
>
>  ......
>
>  PIECE C:  Is truncated, measures 44 cm. at the base. The 
>  upper portion is 30 cm. long and the sides measure 46 cm. 
>  The skin is transparent, and shows two nipples in the upper 
>  area. These are 16 cm. apart. From the nipple level to the 
>  umbilicus is 23 1/2 cm.  ....
>
>  MICROSCOPIC: The tissue consists of bundles of collagen 
>  showing occasional epithelial and sweat gland remnants. 
>  Granular black pigment granules are seen between some 
>  of the bundles. 
>
>  3.  Based on the findings in paragraph 2, all three specimens 
>  are tattooed human skin. 
>
>  For the Commanding Officer, 
>  
>  (signature)
>  REUBEN CARES 
>  Major M.C. 
>  Chief of Pathology 
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>(Note: the document quoted above was supplied by Stephan Bruchfeld who
>deserves the credit for a fine bit of research)

	But I thought the likes of Debra Lipstadt recognize the tatoo
story was and is a lie.

	There seems to be an aweful lot more that denies the story. 

	"Rueben" most often is a Jewish name, and Bruchfeld, well ..."

	Anyway, it would be interesting to see the full particulars or
the "research" and the docuement.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 11:51:53 PDT 1996
Article: 65455 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Human skin LAMPSHADE STORY A CRUEL AND VULGAR HOAX
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 17:50:22 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
>>In article , Jeffrey
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Some reporter had called her [Ilse Koch] the "Bitch of Buchenwald" had
>>> [also] written that she had lampshades made out of human skin in her
>>> house. And that was introduced in court, where it was absolutely proven
>>> that the lampshades were made out of goatskin....
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>In light of Jeffrey's claims one might wish to consider the following, a
>>US Army pathologist's report:
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>  Seventh Medical Laboratory
>>  APO 403, c/o PK, New York, N.Y.
>>  Section of Pathology 
>>
>>  25 May 1945
>>
>>
>>  SUBJECT:  Identification of Tattoed Skin Hides 
>>
>>  TO     :  COMMANDING GENERAL, Third U. S. Army 
>>            (ATTN:   JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL) 
>>
>>
>>  1.  There were submitted to this laboratory section for 
>>  examination three tanned pieces of skin by Lt. Col. GIVIN 
>>  from Buchenwald Camp with office record designation of 
>>  Case 81 T.J.A. 

	I wonder if this laboratory still has the sample on file? Or if
the lab. doesn't exist any more, is there a record to show what
happened to the sample?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 18:10:53 PDT 1996
Article: 65575 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What do they do with the $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:45:29 GMT
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	The Jews have collected billions of $$$$$, hundreds of billions
$$$$$, from exploiting the Holocaust story.

	What do they do with this $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$?

	Well we could suppose much of it has gone to the Jewish state.

	And, we might suppose much of it has been pooled to acquire U.S.
holdings, from apartment houses to major buildings to U.S.
corporations and major medias.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 18:10:54 PDT 1996
Article: 65577 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is a "goyim"
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:44:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	A "goyim" is a non-Jew.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 19:15:25 PDT 1996
Article: 65582 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: And the - real ashes?
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:44:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	According to Holocaust eyewitness testimonies, the Germans did
all sorts of wacky things with the ashes of the extermination victims.
They were used to make up garden beds, dumped in swamps, rivers and
ponds, scattered as fertilizer in fields, hidden under piles of
manure, used as insulation in camp buildings, even strewn around on
camp paths in winter time.

	Of course all this is up for debate, the Holocaust dependents
having us believe it all true and revisionist types saying it ain't.

	The one thing they would have in common is that they would both
recognize that people at Auschwitz died from the more 'normal' causes,
they were cremated and there would be ashes.

	I guess it would be easy to just say, 'Oh they just threw them
onto the piles of the exterminated that were always there a bouts'.

	Of course any revisionist type wouldn't just go and blurt out
something like, 'No, they were given funerals with flowers'. The
revisionist is beholden to deducing the answer from concrete evidence
or the lack of concrete evidence.

	The only evidence I recall is a room mentioned that held urns. 
	

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 14 20:26:43 PDT 1996
Article: 65625 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.unb.ca!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Victims and Murderers: Photographs from Belsen Camp
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 13:36:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <32396355.187733@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <3238063a.256334@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-2.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141



Moran's response to references by Mr.Keren about post war Dachau:
>>     "What the Allies found after entering the camp that had been
>> deprived of the necessary supplies for months on end."

Jamie's statement:
>"I guess no more need be said.  Moran's ability to misanalyze and to
>rationalize is displayed to his detriment."

Jamie's supporting material for the statement:
>"http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/bergen-belsen/images/belsen04.jpg"

	Interesting. Maybe he'll come back to explain the relationship
between the statement and the supporting material, what ever it is.
     

> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
> Hate mail will be posted.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 09:27:36 PDT 1996
Article: 65681 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CREMATORY RATES SHOW "GASSING" IS PROPAGANDA LIES!
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:18:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <323acb05.5858080@news.pacificnet.net>
References:   <323a172e.5512327@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-18.pacificnet.net
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <323a172e.5512327@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/images/
>> >
>> >furnace-capacity.jpg
>> >
>> >Letter from Jahrling to Kammler, stating that the combined
>> >crematoriums in Auschwitz-Birkenau can cremate 4,756 corpses
>> >in 24 working hours.
>> 
>> 
>> >-Danny Keren.
>> 
>> Mr.Keren would prefer to direct people to some Nizkor URL instead
>> of performing the service of presenting the stuff out here, directly.
>> This is because he wants you to see the reference and say to yourself,
>> 'Oh he has the proof' hoping you will just accept that on it's own. He
>> knows the referred to evidence is absurd.
>
>What is absurd, Moran, is that you are scraping the bottom of the denier
>barrel here.  For the rigii unimpared, verification of Dr. Kerens's source
>is but a few mouse clicks away. 
>
>But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
>beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
>Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
>evidence of this please see:
>
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq

	Here we have the same finale that Mr.VanAlstine gave above in the
thread to his usual lengthy drone on responses. 

	Evidently Mr.VanAlstine finds in his own subliminal that whatever
he put forth as to that was insufficient and he found that he better
add these irrelevant URLs to discredit Moran.

	Moran has written over 220 articles to alt.revisionism, thus we
can see that Mr.VanAlstine can only point to a few in attempts at
undoing Moran.

	Mr.Van Alstine is a funny individual.

	Keep an eye on Mr.VanAlstine's responses and take note of how he
drags them on, over expanding to the point where it becomes
incoherent.
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 09:27:37 PDT 1996
Article: 65706 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Katyn: "On their heads be it..."
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:43:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 92
Message-ID: <323ac4ab.4232245@news.pacificnet.net>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>
>Archive/File: places/germany/nuremberg/tusa/katyn-into-indictment
>Last-Modified: 1995/08/26
>
>"As if there had not been problems enough in drawing up an
>indictment, the Russians at the last moment demanded that the
>massacre of 925 Polish officers at Katyn be added. It was
>breathtaking.

	Interesting post. Interesting that it was posted by McVay.
It is in proximity to the recent mention of the Katyn incident on
alt.revisionism. We can see that this and the other associated post
really plays havoc with Soviet credibility. What would motivate McVay
to post something that would on the surface sorely challenge the
credibility of a principle responsible party for submitting evidence
to the Nuremberg Trials? Perhaps a show of objectivity. Maybe in
atonement for cheering the deprivation of his adversary being denied
media access. Who knows.
	Anyway, there is one little part in here that could use some
attention.

> They had never mentioned it before. Everyone
>else was pretty certain that the Russians themselves had
>murdered the Poles. All those anxieties about protecting the
>Russians in particular against embarrassing evidence, all that
>concern about avoiding accusations of _tu quoque_, and here
>were the Russians wanting to deliver as large a collection of
>skeletons as could have been found. The others tried to argue
>the Russians out of their folly. They pointed out that there
>were no witnesses to the Katyn murders who 'would meet the
>high standards of credibility required in a criminal trial';
>they pleaded that all the other prosecution evidence was from
>German sources whereas this charge was backed only by a Soviet
>government report. The Russians were adament. So on their
>heads be it. The charge went into the indictment; the other
>prosecutors made it quite clear they would play no part at all
>in this section of the case. In a final twist, which only made
>matters worse, twelve days after the indictment was signed the
>Russians insisted on changing the number of Polish officers
>killed to 11,000." (Tusa, 113)

	"They pointed out that there were no witnesses to the Katyn
murders who 'would meet the high standards of credibility required in
a criminal trial'";

	I don't know who these people are that wrote it, but this whole
last paragraph would make it look like the whole Nuremberg staff was
set to high standards, and explicitly to the high standards for
"eyewitness ... credibility".

	However, we could say this is purely an assertion, whereas the
reality shows that much of the eyewitness testimony given at the
trials, then, stands out as fiction today. 

	It all becomes apparent when you apply the process of
Neo/paleo-deholocaustolithification, the science of comparing the
older official Holocaust facts with current official Holocaust facts.

	Thus, ignoring any statement about the high standards of the
trial personnel, they did accept the Russian claims into evidence,
regardless of any comment like "... the other prosecutors made it
quite clear they would play no part at all in this section of the
case.", which would mean they would sit back while the Russians did
their part in convicting men to hang on evidence they themselves knew
to be false. So much for "high standards".

	The Katyn Forest incident and it's ensuing history steps on
anything else the Russians had to say or submit for the Holocaust
story. It was the actual murderers playing the role as prosecution and
judge. How can anyone really consider anything else the Russians ever
submitted as absolute truth without deep and serious reservations 

	In fact we have to have reservations about the standards and the
quality of the whole trial process, including it's full membership of
personnel. 
   
>                           Work Cited
>
>   Tusa, Ann & John.  The Nuremberg Trial.  Birmingham, Alabama: The
>   Notable Trials Library, Division of Gryphon Editions, Inc., 1990




>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 09:27:38 PDT 1996
Article: 65737 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:34:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <323a18e8.5954968@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32317188.671677@news.pacificnet.net> <323221FE.168E@serv.net> <519gg4$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <32382EE9.1A7C@serv.net>
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Laurinda Stryker  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 08 Sep 1996 01:31:42 +0000, Laurinda Stryker
>>  wrote:
>
>[snip]
>> 
>> >Again, this is completely consistent with testimony.
>
>[snip]
>> 
>>         It is clearly contrary to the claims that gassing was done in secret
>> or have you missed that?
>
>Inmates of Auschwitz-Birkenau knew about the gassings.  There are no 
>such claims.
>
>Read some books.

	I've read a number of Holocaust books and seen a lot about it out
here by the Holocaust dependents and it is my opinion that sometimes
it was all kept in secret and sometimes it wsn't. Sometimes all the
victims knew, and sometimes they didn't. It all depends on what suits
the purpose to advance the story as true.  


>Laurinda Stryker
>> 
>
>[.sig deleted]



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 09:27:38 PDT 1996
Article: 65740 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 02:36:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <323a19d6.6193068@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322ee41c.2598721@news.pacificnet.net> <3231B425.1A9D@ccnis.net> <3232edc6.3010933@news.pacificnet.net> <32330522.8990892@news.pacificnet.net> <519gff$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> 
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <519gff$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:42:28 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> >       Sara Schwartz's favorite quote that can be found at the end of
>> >here posts. 
>> 
>> >       "I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of
>> >it."
>> 
>>         Her second favorite quote comes from the Desiderata ...
>> 
>>         "Be gentle with yourself."
>
>1. It's HER posts, Moron, not "here posts."
> 
>2. I've used a lot of different sig lines over the years. What makes you
>think THAT one is my favorite?
> 
>3. I'd call that "jumping to conclusions," and once again, you're WRONG.
> 
>4. Mr. Giwer is even MORE wrong. Personally, I find the Desiderata to be a
>load of crap. 
> 
>5. What does EITHER post from Giwer or Moran have to do with revisionism?
>tired of being proven wrong on points of fact -- so now it's time to
>attack the individuals? What's the matter, Mr. Giwer, bored with attacking
>my son?
> 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it."
>    Edith Sitwell

	Sara, when you capitalize, or stress in other ways, certain
words, is this supposed to have some meaning?
	Anyway, thanks for posting another example.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 09:27:39 PDT 1996
Article: 65786 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil CIA
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 14:58:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <323c1951.162742@news.pacificnet.net>
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According to Chuck Ferree, frequent and ardent defender of the
Holocaust story, wrote in response to the posting "Evil U.S. sailors
got what they deserved", (which was an exposure of what a Annie Alpert
implied in a discussion of the attack on our USS Liberty by the Jewish
state of Israel), that it was the CIA's fault.

Chuck Ferree:	
"Ever heard of the CIA? The United States Government Agency, which 
through a marine officer by the name of Ollie North, established the 
first and largest crack cocaine operation in the world, bringing in 
illegal drugs on American military airplanes, selling the stuff to 
drug gangs, and using the profit to operate illegally in Central 
America. Breaking American laws by the dozen, causing the deaths of 
thousands of innocent people, violating the United States Constitution

every time he turned around. North was found guilty of crimes, the 
president pardoned him, he lives like a king."

	So, according to Chuck here, the CIA are no angels and it was
they who fouled up something, causing the Jewish state of Israel to
bomb our Naval ship, USS Liberty? 

	Not only that but:

"Now let's hear some more about the Evil Sailors. They were victims of

their own government foul up the CIA once again." 

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 09:27:40 PDT 1996
Article: 65799 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: ADL  "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:04:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 68
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                         [This is a repost]

	Letter to the Editor,  L.A. Times,  Nov. 21, 1991

                   "Censorship and Computers"

	"The Anti-Defamation League questioned Prodigy Consumer Network's
interpretation and application of it't self imposed guidelines for
determining the appropriateness of messages posted on it't bulletin
boards.  I did not, contrary to Dershowitz's assertion, demand that
Prodigy '"censor"' anti-Semitic messages. The ADL, counts itself among
the staunchest friends of free speech. The questions raised by
Dershowitz as to whether computer services should impose such
guidelines is not the point. In light of the fact that Prodigy has
guidelines, we brought to their attention complaints we received about
certain messages that appeared on Prodigy bulletin boards, including
messages claiming the Holocaust is a hoax. Prodigy concluded these
messages were not offensive. We disagree. Even Dershowitz disagrees.
	Dershowitz is wrong to claim that ADL's actions '"aggravated the
problem."'  As the '"watchdog of the Jewish Community against
anti-Semitism"', we believe it is better to expose institutional
racism and anti-Semitism, if it exist, than to pretend it does not.
ADL did not '"mainstream"' the bigotry, it exposed it.
	The conflict is between freedom of speech and the right not to be
offended. Constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe, of Harvard, has
stated his belief that, with regard to computerized communications,
the issues involved are not adequately addressed by our legal system.
However, since Prodigy has promulgated guidelines and taken the
responsibility for drawing lines and making judgement calls as to what
is and is not offensive, we and their subscribers have every right to
question their decisions without being labeled promoters of
censorship."
                                                 TZIVIA SSHWARTZ
                                   Western States Associate Counsel
                              Anti- Defamation League, Los Angeles

	What a crock of crap. '...among the staunchest friends of freedom
of speech", "...complaints they received..."  The only example they
put in here as to these complaints concerns Holocaust denial. Their
own interests. They are in denial by stating they did not "demand"
Prodigy '"censor"' '"anti-Semitic"' messages and then raising it as a
legitimate topic for Constitutional revisionism. 
	"The conflict is between freedom of speech and the right not to
be offended."  All those Palestinians, Arabs of other nations, Muslims
and Catholics have the right not to be offended, yet this ADL has
leveled all sorts of vile accusations against them and they don't go
crying for special interpretations and application of our free speech
clause. In true ADL form, they cite a "Constitutional law professor
.. from Harvard" as a selling point for their view. One man? Some
weak minded academite. "Even Dershowitz disagrees"? Dershowitz plays
himself as a champion of freedom of speech so he can play that even
Holocaust denial is objectionable enough to warrant censorship. This
is the good cop bad cop practice that so often accompanies the
writings of this faction. I would suggest a full vote before the whole
United States as to what should or should not be censored on the
Internet. How's that for democratic procedure? Why leave it up to weak
people in position to submit to the standards of those who sleaze
around to have our Constitution be specialized for their particular
cause.  
	The ADL and associated organizations have their concept of what
they think is offensive, and get their complaints in wherever they
want, but in the end they're the ones who have the big history of
offensiveness against whole nations, whole peoples, whole religions,
and they express it with regularity right in our faces, right in our
public medias, galore.
	Right here in their own directive, REVISIONISM IS ANTI-SEMITISM.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 09:27:41 PDT 1996
Article: 65800 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:05:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <323c2944.4245922@news.pacificnet.net>
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	They who refuse to debate, oppose debate or stifle debate,
declare they don't have the will, the substance or the guts to meet
the challenge. It is a sign of cowardice.
	It is tacit declaration they know they would lose, that they
don't have faith in their position, that they know deep down inside or
are consciously aware their own position sucks. 
	This applies to any of those persons and groups that oppose free
open discussion on the Holocaust. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 10:52:56 PDT 1996
Article: 150861 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: cmsg cancel <323c292d.4223018@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <323c292d.4223018@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:44:01 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <323c324f.6560681@news.pacificnet.net>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 11:00:24 PDT 1996
Article: 65809 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof"
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:04:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	

	Nov. 8, 1993, New York Times, Letter to the Editor;

"Need to Refute the Deniers of the Holocaust"
                                                 by Deborah Lipstadt.

	"Jean Claude Pressac's book detailing how the Nazis gas chambers
at Auschwitz actually worked has elicited condemnation from a variety
of sources contending that '"genocide was possible because it
happened"'. Deborah didn't fill the readers in on the first part of
the quote for some reason, but as it appears, her part of the quote
elicits the idea the quoter is agreeing with the story.
	Anyway, the gist of her mentality and criteria for historical
accuracy lies in her statement "They argue Pressac's book is
superfluous; the tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof."

	Let me reiterate Deborah's terse statement on historical
accounting;

     "...; THE TEARS OF THE SURVIVORS SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT PROOF".

	Randonm House Dictionary: "sufficient: 1. adequate for the
purpose"
 
Deborah Lipstadt is a lead mouth in perpetuating the Holocaust story
and author of the childish book "Beyond Belief" which strives to make
the United States complicit in the Holocaust story.

She has her reasons for not meeting the challenges for debate.
               ____________________________________





From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 11:00:25 PDT 1996
Article: 65810 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:38:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                              [repost]
	                    
                             New York Times
                             Jan. 10, 1996

                      "Jewish Rights Group Urges Ban
                     Of All Hate Messages on Internet"

	"Citing '"the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups
on the Internet,"' a leading Jewish human rights group yesterday began
sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and
universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that '"promote
racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence"'.
	The letter from the Simon Weisenthal Center, a 425,000-member
organization ... is the latest in a growing effort by legislators and
private interest groups to censor offensive material ... which now
connects millions of computer users worldwide.
	'"Internet providers have a First Amendment right and a moral
obligation not to provide these groups a platform for their
destructive propaganda,"' Rabbi Abraham Cooper, .... wrote in the
letter ...
	Rabbi Cooper said the target of yesterday's call for '"ethical
rules of engagement on the Internet"' was not the many discussion
forums where individuals debate such topics as whether the Holocaust
actually occurred, but rather the Internets's World Wide Web, a
service that allows users to publish documents -- including text,
pictures  ... read by millions of people.
	Dozens of groups, from white supremist to anarchists, have
published documents on the Web about their points of view. Some are
revisionists histories and some are racist tracts denigrating blacks,
Jews ...
	Such hate speech is not illegal under Federal law and is
generally protected by First Amendment ... But efforts are growing to
restrict certain types of information ... Congress is debating ..."

	The article then goes to give us comments from various people who
defend the unrestricted Internet before returning to Rabbi Cooper who
said the '"unprecidented potential and scope of the Internet" gives
people '"incredible power to promote violence, threaten women,
denigrate minorities ..."'
	"He said letters would be sent to about 2000 Internet providers
and university presidents suggesting a voluntary code of ethics.
	The proposed code asks providers to pledge, '"We consider it our
civic duty to refuse or terminate service to any individual or group
to exploit our service to promote an agenda of hate and violence"'.

	A short recap of the of the Jewish "rights group" manifesto is
that the target of their agenda was not the many discussion forums
where individuals debate such topics as revisionism but the
"...groups, from white supremists to anarchists" who have published
"documents on the Web" ...  Some are revisionists histories ..." 

	As to the Times reporter's stating the Jewish "rights group" is
the "latest" group in "a growing effort by legislators and private
interest groups ..." the legislators are the only ones named exactly.
No other group(s) were cited.
	Of course those legislators that are mentioned are the same ones
that will tell you that Zionist policies of shooting little kids is an
act of democracy, and who will muster up 93 Senatorial votes endorsing
Jeruselem as capitol of Israel, while they can't agree on anything
that would benefit the people of the U.S.

	Above, again, a Jewish connection that revisionism and "hate" are
in the same category.

	Before any self imposed or legislative imposed restrictions are
made on the Internet, we should reqire that any proposers list exactly
what they see as example candidates for censorship, and be subject to
debate by the general citizens of the U.S. and the world. It can not
be left up to Jewish "rights groups" to set the parameters. Its
already a unwritten law that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic, and few if
any dare question any U.S. policies that even remotely connect to that
area of the world.

	The main problem with any kind of censorship is the precidences
it sets, which history shows can and will be used to expand them to
any level, far removed from the initial precedence.
	We can not allow ourselves to be controlled by fear and tyranny.
The truely intellectual way of dealing with any wacky malevolent
doctrines is to counter them with the pen, not by the methods of the
likes of the Simon Weisenthal Center. Their approach is a sign of
their failure and confidence of intellect to debate a issue and or
their condemnation of the American intellect. An act of contempt.     


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 11:00:26 PDT 1996
Article: 65813 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: holohugging traitors
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:32:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <323c2c9f.5104949@news.pacificnet.net>
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>
>> 	We have no had more than a few American citizens support the murder of
>> their fellow Americans on the USS Liberty.  
>> 
>> 	As such they are not really citizens but rather people who deserve
>> death at best as they are unamerican and support the murderous regime
>> is Israel.  
>> 
>> 	Anyone supporting Israel over US citizens and US military deserves to
>> be deported to Antarctica at best and executed at worst.

	Giwer: 
>> 	"This include Joel Rosenblum as a traitor to the US."  

	Ridiculous, Rosenberg is not an American, he is Jewish, therefore
he could not be a "traitor". He is only doing what comes natural,
supporting anything Jewish.

	Beulieu:
>    "How about condamning them to read Van Alstine's posts?"

	Ridiculous. Maybe if you condemned a goyim to read VanAlstine's
stuff it would be punishment, but to condemn a Rosenberger would be
like giving a comic book to a kid, he would love it.


	How about making them submit to a debate on national television,
on the campus and in the major medias? This is their ultimate fear.
Having to defend their idiotic propostions directly under cross
examination.

	Freedom of speech is the arch enemy of Judo-Zionism. 	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 11:27:41 PDT 1996
Article: 65821 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Unitied States sailors got what they deserved.
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:57:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <323c423e.10639521@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <323ac4d0.4268935@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> >       Poor Annie Alpert.      
>> 
>> >       Annie has posted she is not Jewish, that she has blonde hair and
>> >blue eyes. Maybe she's one of those who fancies a job in Hollywood.
>> 
>>         I wonder if Annie realizes she has inadvertantly announced that
>> the Jews are a racist movement?      
>
>I wonder if Moran realizes has inadvertantly announced that he's an
>anti-Semite and an idiot?

	How about it, Jeruselem Annie, do you realize you have
inadvertently posed Jews as a racist movement? Evidently a
Mr.VanAlstine sees it and now is trying to divert.

	Annie, ask Mr.VanAlstine if making a case that Judaism is a
racist movement is "anti-Semitic".

	I'd ask him myself, but I can't ever make out what he posts. Its
like being in a car at night, during a rainstorm, doing 60 miles an
hour, with no headlights and windshield wipers.

>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 11:27:42 PDT 1996
Article: 65823 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,israel.jewstudies,alt.revisionism,alt.messianic,alt.fan.jesus-christ,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: the deciside charge aginst the jews
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:47:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 11
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>	As to what is said now days, a new revised Bible has been
>>published with all the references to Hebrew complicity deleted.
>
>Which edition is this, pray tell? What does it do with Matthew 27:25, 
>to name one of the more notorious antisemites' proof-texts?

	Look it up. I forget the exact title. The latest version.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 11:27:43 PDT 1996
Article: 65825 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'There Was No Longer Any Escape'
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:51:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
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Laurinda Stryker  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:
>
>[snip] 
>
>> tom moran wrote:
>> >
>> > dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> >
>> > >Testimony of Hans-Heintz Schutt, SS-officer at Sobibor
>> > >[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, 
>
>[snip]
>
>> 
>>What moran want is a person who just witnessed the
>> gassings to sit down with him, show him the films along with the
>> sounds of the inmates crying for pity, gasping for breath, open a
>> bottle so he gets the odors of death, submit to stupid interrogation,
>> and then moran would say..."aw bullshit, you expect me to believe that
>> story? By the way, you're Jewish, right!"
>> >
>[clip] 
> 
>> Chuck   (sigh)
>
>And even if s/he's not Jewish, s/he is obviously a lackey of the Jews, 
>so it still wouldn't count.
>
>I wonder if even witnessing the gassings himself would be sufficient?  
>Given Moran's propensity for referring to himself in the third person, 
>he'd likely find even his own testimony suspect.

	Moran had noticed that Ms.Stryker in her first appearances on the
group was making an attempt at posing real questions, and now Moran
notices Ms.Stryker has fallen in line with clone output of the rest.

	Moran invites Ms.Stryker to respond to all of his posts,
directly.  

>Laurinda Stryker



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 11:27:44 PDT 1996
Article: 65826 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval,israel.jewstudies,alt.revisionism,alt.messianic,alt.fan.jesus-christ,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: the deciside charge aginst the jews
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:47:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 56
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <323ad103.7392026@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>         Could it be the word of god is subject to political and social
>> correctness? 
> 
>Wow, Mr. Moron:
> 
>WHAT AN ORIGINAL THOUGHT!!! I guess  NO ONE has EVER thought of this before.

	If anyone has ever thought of it before, it wasn't you.
 
>Since you seen to have discovered this all by yourself, I suggest you go
>take a trip to the local library and read the 5 Gospels. Keep track of ALL
>the contradictions -- especially the ones that relate to the intended
>audience (ie. Gospels written for a Greek versus Roman audience).

	I don't have to go to the library. I have four or five Bibles on
hand. I know of many contradictions. I have read the Bible, a number
of times over the years - "Know thy enemy". 
 
>Maybe you can tell me why Jesus is recorded as having three different
>"last words"?

	For the same reason there are five different acounts of his
Ressurection, verbally passed on fiction is more prone to being passed
on with further distortions. Like lining up ten people, telling the
first person something and asking them to tell the account to the next
person, and by the time it gets to the end of the line, it's something
totally diffferent than what started.
	In the case of the biblical tales, it wasn't even this process as
much as people sitting alone expanding fictionally on their own on
some root rumor.
 
>Hmm... Maybe it's because it ISN'T the word of God at all, but the words
>of people?

	Exactly, as I personally believe it. And then I think the Torah,
"Old Testament", is childish fairy tale.
 
>Sheesh.

	If the world had the wits to grasp the output of the Greek
masters instead of some childish Hebrew fiction, we might be better
off today. They chose what they could comprehend, mythological
superstition.
 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 13:43:56 PDT 1996
Article: 65828 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Unitied States sailors got what they deserved.
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:44:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	Poor Annie Alpert.	

>	Annie has posted she is not Jewish, that she has blonde hair and
>blue eyes. Maybe she's one of those who fancies a job in Hollywood.

	I wonder if Annie realizes she has inadvertantly announced that
the Jews are a racist movement?		  




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 13:43:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65830 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 14:45:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 40
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	A sample of Mr.Green's responding to the first time I posted this
article.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
	Direct quotes from Mr.Green

1. No, it's a huge difference! You just have no concept of scale.

2. Why don't you read the values they measured instead of speculating?

3. That's because you're very ignorant of science.  Spectroscopy can
be used quantitatively, but as you note the decided to use a more
precise method than the rudimentary spectrometer taht they appeared to
have available to them.

4. Read the graphs!  The results are there!

5. Care to provide some evidence for this blatent lie?

6. Reread their detction method little Tommy.  Do you know what a
cyanide ion is little Tommy?

7. Mr. Moran makes things up as he goes along.

8. Re read the report.

9. Could you rephrase this into English please.

10. Oops! 10 points to Mr. Moran if he can find my mistake.

11. Care to provide some evidence Mr. Moran?  You are lying; you're
qualifier doesn't change the fact that you are trying to get away with
a lie.

12. Not only is it feasible, it was done as you would know if you read
the paper a bit more carefully.


                           ---------------


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 13:43:57 PDT 1996
Article: 65831 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does anyone have it?
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:51:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 54
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <323b5041.751374@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>>>	I have managed to lose my copy of the Nuremberg testimony in which it
>>>was sworn under oath (proving the evil of Nazi medical experiments)
>>>that prisoners were given cancer in some experments.  
>>>
>>>	It is a real laugh riot and I would like to post it again and again
>>>and again but I have lost it.  It will be appreciated if someone who
>>>kept it would repost it.
>> 
>>	Maybe Mr.VanAlstine or Mr.Mittleman, or even Mr."McFee" could
>>help you.  Just think, if they did, everyone would hear about it. The
>>whole Internet would be passing the word of how objective they are. It
>>would be a great tactical maneuver. 

	Mr.Mittleman refuses to help adversary. If Mr.Mittleman thinks
the records of the Nuremberg Trials are supporting of the Holocaust
story, why doesn't he just help Mr.Giwer. Just think, Giwer gets what
he needs, posts something, giving Mr.Mittleman and any others the
opportunity to come back with the heavy intellectual debunking of
Giwers analysis.

	Mr.Mittleman and any think alikes should take advantage of this.

>    Thank you for the vote of confidence, zeyde, but [1] I don't have ready
>    access to Nuremburg testimony; and [2] I am not inclined to give Giwer
>    any help whatsoever.
>
>    While I might make a small effort to help you, or Milt Kleim, or
>    Ehrlich, or David Thomas, Giwer is an insidious troll who deserves no
>    assistance.
>
>    I do know that the Nuremburg testimony is in some libraries and that
>    Giwer could search libraries on the web and then arrange to borrow (or
>    have xeroxed) what he needs through interlibrary loan.  But Giwer is
>    too lazy to do this.  He always wants someone else to do his work for
>    him.
>
>    I also know that one regular poster to a.r has the testimony in his
>    private library.  But I am confident he has no desire to assist Giwer
>    either.
>
>    So much for tactical maneuvers, eh zeyde?
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 13:43:58 PDT 1996
Article: 65834 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran's Index
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 17:30:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 255
Message-ID: <323c3cef.9280402@news.pacificnet.net>
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	This is a list of Moran's postings on alt.revisionism. These are
the posts that Nizkor fears to include in it's dossier on Moran in a
straight foward way.

	These are the "neo-Nazi" - "anti-Semitic" postings that have
terrorized the Holocaust dependents. 

	Any of these posts are subject to reposting. Any reposts are
given for the new comers to the group and are not aimed at those who
have already read them. 	

	In order to avoid having to include any statement like "repost" I
will post any new ones in solitary, and all reposts will be posted in
clusters.	
-------------------------------------------------------------------
	
A Logical Conclusion
A Certain Perspective
Actions of the righteous and who needed Zyclone B
ADL "friends of free speech" excepting ...
ADL rabbi tries to weasel
ALL BY THEIR LONESOME
All mouth - no substance
All Roads Lead to Zero
Alternate introductory systems
Alternate Krema plans
An Incredible Sequence
And/or numbers
Another Holocaust Peculiarity
Another rabbi interpretation
Anti-Holocaust Revisionism
"Anti - Zionism = anti Semitism"
"Any day now"
Are the Kurds evil?
Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz, Auschwitz
Auschwitz: The more photos I see the more I realize
Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Barracks fumigated
Behold the Lie
Beneficiaries of ‘Assertive Action'?
Between the lines
Big Question
Big Question II
Big Question III
Big Question IV
Big Push Holocaust
Birkenau kitchens and mess halls
Boys in the Sand
Boys in the Sand II
Can you question this answer?
Censorship - Simon says again
Charges
Christian revisionism Okay but for the Holocaust
Christians ‘take it like a man'
Chutzpa = exaggeration
"Coming soon to a newsgroup near you"
COMPU SERVE LIED
Condolences to Memorial Day
Cremation rates
Declaration of deficiency
Demolition of Auschwitz evidence?
Desert Ostrich
Does the A Team get paid?
Everyday, Yellow School Buses
Evil Egyptians 
Evil Holocaust Revisionism
Evil Canada
Evil Christian Children
Evil little German babies
Evil Christians
Evil United States sailors got what they deserve 
Exaggerated claims exposed
Exploiting Atlanta Olympics for Zionism - first report
Extraordinary Absence
First the sister, then the mom and pop, and now the wife
Forensic studies, enemies of the myth
Free speech, a matter of philosophy not law.
Freudian admission of inadequacy?
Goldhagen again
Gryspan says Moran's parents, "incestuous pair of slugs"
Haphazard State of Affairs  
HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
He told my mommy
Hebrew Huggims
Hebrew Numerology
Hollywood - Capitol of Degradation
Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Holocaust Final Exam 
Holocaust of Mind
Holocaust Scholar Well Recieved in Berlin
Holocaust specifications for "proof"
Holocaust peer boosting for revisionism
Holocaust dictionary
Holocaust "Museum of Tolerance"
Holocaust Day of Remembrance
Holocaust saved from drowning
Holocausterclonism
Holocuster's last stand
How would one know for sure
How many and where
How soon is soon
Human fat fuel
IF
If no Holocaust, then what happened to all the Jews
If no lice, then no Holocaust
Interpratation of the incomprehensible
In your face
INEVITABLE
Israel - Numero uno in the world
"I will ... this weekend"
Jamie, down by the school yard
Jewish Holocaust - 99.99% of the story
Jewish population today, 13, 16 or 20 million?
John F. Kennedy, neo-Nazi?
Just ask for Rachelle
Kids stay cozy in gas chambers
Kristalnacht in England
Lay Guide to Zyklon B
L E M M I N G S
Let us not overlook
MAD DOGS ATTACK
Main convincing point for revisionism
McVay, down by the school yard
McVay's little boy mind
McVay's rave review for nixing Zundel air time
Ministry of Love
Moran said it
Moran in the headlines
Moran finds Mr.Edeiken's e-mail
Moran's definition of "chutzpah" confirmed
Moran's attitude on Jews
Moran's dreams vanish
Moran's vision of HDL responses
More goofy Nizkor stuff
More Holocaust book racist statement
Mr. Kelley - down by the school yard
Neo/Paleo - Deholocaustolithification
Newt, he's for Israel
Nizkor, Educational resource
Nizkor invite accepted
Nizkor/Wiesenthal
Nizkor Roller Coaster, wacky - corrupt
Nizkor/"images" and Rip Van Winkle
Nizkor - an environmental hazard
Nizkor/JDL ready for "battle" against evil Christians
Nizkor-Debra Quote
Nizkor's BELZEC - more goofy stuff
Nizkor's got the patent - goofy style
No more skin heads from Mars
No more M E N O R A H?
Numbers racket one day, next day boolean
On your feet, Its Manuel Prutschi
OOH - WEE
Open one gallon of paint, paint one door, throw the rest away
"Operation Grapes of Wrath"
Ordinary Germans Provoked
Ordinary Arabs
Photo facts
Photos make Holocaust story ridiculous
Photos deny the myth
Photos have been found
Photos deny the story
Picture this
Post your forensic studies here
Pressac, yes? Pressac, no? It all depends
Push, push, push
Racism in Holocaust books
"Red Alert" for U.S. citizens
"Remember the children"
Rock and the hard place
Rodeo Clowns
Seeking the first time
Shhh! Don't mention it
Suing is for sissies
Sleep with dogs, get fleas
Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff
So much for eye witnesses
Sock the goyim but not another Jew
Socrates and Plato for revisionist rights
Some Holocaust facts
Star Jewish pop. Source goes bye, bye
Strange Holocaust "gas" properties
Stupid Germans 
Substance and hot air
Technically impossible
Tell his mommy
Testimonial Fiction
The Ultimate Extermination System
The professor and his eye witnesses
The Tally Thus Far
The Extraordinary Absence
The Cultured McVay
The odds are
The more I see, the more ...
The Holocaust magic wand - deus ex machina
The official Nizkor code of responding
The Roman Empire was
The more plans I see the more ridiculous the story
The Holocaust plea
The Best of Nizkor
The more plans I see ... Part II
The sinking McVay - down, down, down
"THE ZIONIST PAGE"
They took my spoon
"They lived right inside the gas chambers"
"Thousands ... perhaps millions"
Tom Moran is ...
Too too good for a thread
Traces
TREBLINKA, there, gone, there again
U.S. Educational system directed from Israel
Ultimate Responsibility
Wanted - Examples of chutzpa
Watch this
"What being Jewish means to me"
What is and what ain't 
What is "Jew baiting"?
What is and what ain't II              
What is a Holocaust survivor
What happened to the other ashes?
What Nizkor excludes from it's dossier on Moran
What is trolling?
What is a Jewish scholar?
What is "Chutzpah"?
When a Jew says "Shalom"
Where are the Black folk
Where are the URLs?
Where are the missing names?
Where are the other names?
Where are the Indians
Where are the photos
Where are the mass graves?
Where is Simon Wiesenthal? Where is Debra Lipstatd?
Where's the money, gimmee, gimmee, gimmee
Who stole the records
Why is Nizkor?
Without Jewish genes goyems would be nothing
World's sick of the Holocaust
WOW "100 Megabytes" WOW
Yet another Ministry of Love
Yet another $$$$$$/Holocaust connection
Zundel > "nazi home page" > dirty tricks
Zyclone B - powder, pellet or liquid?
Zyklon B - unlikely agent

"10,000 extermination camps ... documented"
"50,000,000" - "Ordinary" Germans
$$$$$$ "FLOOD GATE" $$$$$$
$1,000,000 Reward
1,000,000, plus or minus, Prewar Jews in Europe?
3,000,000 Prewar Polish Jews?
4,000,000 less 3,000,000 still leaves 4,000,000
80% of U.S. artisans would be Jewish if it wasn't for ...



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 13:43:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65838 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!mhv.net!news.westnet.com!stevens-tech.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newsserver2.jvnc.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: FREE SPEECH - A Matter of Philosophy, Not Law.
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:13:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
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	During the American Revolution fighting took place for
years. Over the plains and up the mountains, guns, cannons, fire and
freezing cold. Men losing their arms, legs and lives. Sons and
daughters losing fathers. Wives losing husbands. Friends dying
together in mangled lumps. And when it was all over the United States
stood before the world with its grand document like no other nation
had ever seen before. The Constitution of the United states.
	This quest for freedom is not something unique to the United
States alone, it has been going on for millemnia. In ancient Greece
and Rome, and before that, the struggle has been going on. The French
Revolution the Magna Carta. Many fighters have died across the ages
and the Constitution of the United States is the latest and most
significant of the culmination this human struggle. We must recognize
these ancient fighters as part of our heritage.
	Now here we are, 200 and some years after the Revolution and
thousands of years after the others with Simon Wiesenthals, ADLs and
the like come latelies plying about our nation trying to undo it all.
	Regardless of what the Jews will self proclaim about their place
at the head of this human history of seeking justice and freedoms for
the people, ancient Israel never had such freedoms for their own
people under their own government, the truth lies in their two little
books. And the history of their activity in the United States is well
documented, tenacious to control our modes of communication, using it
to sell us on Israel, their one and only allegiance. The little 2%
putting out the 100% on how great they are.   
	Its lucky we have the ACLU with the Jewish leadership out on the
front lines defending us. Going to court, raising legal precedences,
citing this and that, filing this, making a motion for that. Of course
all this is prone to juggling by some magistrate before he or she
makes a determination. One person, maybe two or three. One giving
here, another giving there. This is the vulnerability of our freedoms
if we should allow it to be a legal issue, dependant on the will and
competancy of the miniscule.
	The Constitution of the United States is a philosophical
doctrine. It can not be left up to magistrates and senators to make
amendments or set limits on the basic tenets as they have been doing
with increasing frequency. The Constitution being a philosophical
document should be left up to the national discussion. It has to be
discussed in the same fashion that we would discuss any philosophy.


	Some talk real democracy, others just use the word. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 14:08:00 PDT 1996
Article: 88480 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!news.abs.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy
Subject: CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:36:30 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                              [repost]
	                    
                             New York Times
                             Jan. 10, 1996

                      "Jewish Rights Group Urges Ban
                     Of All Hate Messages on Internet"

	"Citing '"the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups
on the Internet,"' a leading Jewish human rights group yesterday began
sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and
universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that '"promote
racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence"'.
	The letter from the Simon Weisenthal Center, a 425,000-member
organization ... is the latest in a growing effort by legislators and
private interest groups to censor offensive material ... which now
connects millions of computer users worldwide.
	'"Internet providers have a First Amendment right and a moral
obligation not to provide these groups a platform for their
destructive propaganda,"' Rabbi Abraham Cooper, .... wrote in the
letter ...
	Rabbi Cooper said the target of yesterday's call for '"ethical
rules of engagement on the Internet"' was not the many discussion
forums where individuals debate such topics as whether the Holocaust
actually occurred, but rather the Internets's World Wide Web, a
service that allows users to publish documents -- including text,
pictures  ... read by millions of people.
	Dozens of groups, from white supremist to anarchists, have
published documents on the Web about their points of view. Some are
revisionists histories and some are racist tracts denigrating blacks,
Jews ...
	Such hate speech is not illegal under Federal law and is
generally protected by First Amendment ... But efforts are growing to
restrict certain types of information ... Congress is debating ..."

	The article then goes to give us comments from various people who
defend the unrestricted Internet before returning to Rabbi Cooper who
said the '"unprecidented potential and scope of the Internet" gives
people '"incredible power to promote violence, threaten women,
denigrate minorities ..."'
	"He said letters would be sent to about 2000 Internet providers
and university presidents suggesting a voluntary code of ethics.
	The proposed code asks providers to pledge, '"We consider it our
civic duty to refuse or terminate service to any individual or group
to exploit our service to promote an agenda of hate and violence"'.

	A short recap of the of the Jewish "rights group" manifesto is
that the target of their agenda was not the many discussion forums
where individuals debate such topics as revisionism but the
"...groups, from white supremists to anarchists" who have published
"documents on the Web" ...  Some are revisionists histories ..." 

	As to the Times reporter's stating the Jewish "rights group" is
the "latest" group in "a growing effort by legislators and private
interest groups ..." the legislators are the only ones named exactly.
No other group(s) were cited.
	Of course those legislators that are mentioned are the same ones
that will tell you that Zionist policies of shooting little kids is an
act of democracy, and who will muster up 93 Senatorial votes endorsing
Jeruselem as capitol of Israel, while they can't agree on anything
that would benefit the people of the U.S.

	Above, again, a Jewish connection that revisionism and "hate" are
in the same category.

	Before any self imposed or legislative imposed restrictions are
made on the Internet, we should reqire that any proposers list exactly
what they see as example candidates for censorship, and be subject to
debate by the general citizens of the U.S. and the world. It can not
be left up to Jewish "rights groups" to set the parameters. Its
already a unwritten law that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic, and few if
any dare question any U.S. policies that even remotely connect to that
area of the world.

	The main problem with any kind of censorship is the precidences
it sets, which history shows can and will be used to expand them to
any level, far removed from the initial precedence.
	We can not allow ourselves to be controlled by fear and tyranny.
The truely intellectual way of dealing with any wacky malevolent
doctrines is to counter them with the pen, not by the methods of the
likes of the Simon Weisenthal Center. Their approach is a sign of
their failure and confidence of intellect to debate a issue and or
their condemnation of the American intellect. An act of contempt.     


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 15:34:22 PDT 1996
Article: 65860 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:05:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	The Holocaust promotional network's pet word.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 15 15:34:23 PDT 1996
Article: 65866 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: $$,$$$,$$$ Holocaust connection
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 03:03:44 GMT
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		         Nov.6, 1993, New York Times 
      "American Survivor of the Holcaust Is Trying to Sue"

	"...filed by Hugo Princz, 70, of Highland Park, N.J., who spent
three years in Nazi death camps during WW II."

	"Three years"? "Death camp"?
	
	Looking to dry his tears, he sought $17,000,000.

  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 06:11:35 PDT 1996
Article: 65963 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 00:35:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	
>>	A "goyim" is a non-Jew.
>	Meaning culturally and, and, and, and - genetically.

	Okay, there seems to have been some correction made here, by two
of those we might assume are in on the know.

Mr.Mittleman:
"No, zeyde, a goyim is a group of non-Jews.  But thanks for playing."

Mr.Rosenberg:
"No, it isn't. Goyim is plural; goy is singular; and you're an idiot."

	Since the singular/plural issue seems to be the only problem
expressed with the post we can take this to mean they have no
complaint as to the term being identified as a genetic reference.

	Concisely, the word "goy" or "goyim" is a racial reference. More
concisely yet, a racial slur. 




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 06:11:36 PDT 1996
Article: 66015 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Does anyone have it?
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 00:48:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>	I have managed to lose my copy of the Nuremberg testimony in which it
>was sworn under oath (proving the evil of Nazi medical experiments)
>that prisoners were given cancer in some experments.  
>
>	It is a real laugh riot and I would like to post it again and again
>and again but I have lost it.  It will be appreciated if someone who
>kept it would repost it.


	Maybe Mr.VanAlstine or Mr.Mittleman, or even Mr."McFee" could
help you.  Just think, if they did, everyone would hear about it. The
whole Internet would be passing the word of how objective they are. It
would be a great tactical maneuver. 
>=====



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 09:13:12 PDT 1996
Article: 66056 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!agate!ames!enews.sgi.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Declaration Of Deficiency
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:50:06 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

> Tommy is a coward who will not debate us.  He will simply
> continue to repost his refuted rubbish to the web.

	What irks Mr.Mittleman about any of Moran's non responding, is
that when Mr.Mittleman or anyone else posts something Moran thinks
idiotic, he find it better to let it stand, in the nude, as self
evident. As to responding to any serious attempt, the record is always
here. 
	Mr.Mittleman is the one who says he "mostly" just posts "lame"
sarcasms, not Moran.  


>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ 
>     (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 09:13:13 PDT 1996
Article: 66062 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:38:34 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote, yet again:
>
>> 	
>> 
>> 	Nov. 8, 1993, New York Times, Letter to the Editor;
>> 
>> "Need to Refute the Deniers of the Holocaust"
>>                                                  by Deborah Lipstadt.
>> 
>> 	"Jean Claude Pressac's book detailing how the Nazis gas chambers
>> at Auschwitz actually worked has elicited condemnation from a variety
>> of sources contending that '"genocide was possible because it
>> happened"'. Deborah didn't fill the readers in on the first part of
>> the quote for some reason, but as it appears, her part of the quote
>> elicits the idea the quoter is agreeing with the story.
>> 	Anyway, the gist of her mentality and criteria for historical
>> accuracy lies in her statement "They argue Pressac's book is
>> superfluous; the tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof."
>> 
>> 	Let me reiterate Deborah's terse statement on historical
>> accounting;
>> 
>>      "...; THE TEARS OF THE SURVIVORS SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT PROOF".
>> 
>> 	Randonm House Dictionary: "sufficient: 1. adequate for the
>> purpose"
>
> But golly, Mr. Moran--she is saying that this is what OTHERS say.  She is
>not saying that she believes this--in fact, she goes on to explicitly say
>that Holocaust deniers must be countered with facts, and that therefore
>Pressac's book is necessary.

They argue Pressac's book is superfluous; the tears of the survivors
should be sufficient proof.

These are the words. I left off quote marks so it is clear that the
sentence is Ms.Lipstadt's and not a reference to something a
revisionist said, as Mr.Kelley is trying to infer. 

The first part of the sentence is her statement on what revisionists
argue, the part, after a semicolon, is her statement on what should
suffice. A semicolon is different than a comma. It is defined in the
dictionary as "used to indicate a major division in a sentence". 

" ...; the tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof" is her
opinion, and not her quoting, in her own words, revisionists.

	Let us go down to the rest that is posted.

>Hey, let's look again at the full text of her letter....
>
>"       Jean Claude Pressac's book detailing how the Nazi gas chambers at
>Auschwitz actually worked (news article, Oct. 28, Week in Review Oct 31)
>has elicited condemnation from a variety of sources contending that
>"genocide was possible because it happened."

	Now she is not giving the full sentence here, is she? Why not?


> They argue that Pressac's work is superfluous; the tears of the 
>survivors should be sufficient proof.

	The sentence of controversy.

>"        In the best of all possible worlds they would be right.  The
>testimony of those who suffered as well as the corroboration of the
>perpetrators themselves would be the ultimate proof.

	Now this sentence is hard to relate to any preceding relevance
which she implies with "...they could be right". She states that
testimonies are the ultimate proof, whereas we could very well say
that actual photographs of what should be there, according to
Holocaust evidence and real forensic reports, and documents that are
not subject to interpretations, but actually say something concrete. 

>  But eventually the
>survivors will pass on and future generations will seek this
>documentation.  Moreover, we live in a world where a small group of
>people, many of whom have an anti-Semitic and neo-fascist agenda, labor
>assiduously to convince future generations that the Holocaust was a
>hoax.

	Okay here we have the statement that "many" revisionists are
"anti-Semitic" and "neo-Nazis". Right here she tries to set them up as
non-politically correct figures in order to stigmatize them. I would
say her real message in this is a warning to whoever, that anyone
listening to, endorsing or speaking for revisionism is to stand in
association with these terms. 

>  Irrespective of their motives, their claims are utter nonsense.

	Somewhere we have to insert a comment on Ms.Lipstadts refusal to
debate. Her reason being something like it would be below the dignity
of the Holocaust memory. Not wanting to legitimize revisionism with a
serious acceptance for the debate.  Whatever her excuse for refusing
to debate, she refuses to debate, as all the rest of the top echelon
figures at the forefront of pressing the story.
	If the "claims" of the revisionist are "utter nonsense" then one
should think she would take up the challenge and expose the utter
nonsense. "Utter nonsense" seems like something that should be easy to
deal with and expose as such.

>        But as recent polls have shown, some people have been confused by
>them.  They see the deniers as the "other side" of a debate.  Mr.Pressac's
>book adds to the pre-existing mound of documentary evidence and
>testimony which describes how such a horror happened.

	Perhaps she should have used some other word than "debate" in her
first sentence. Here she refers to a "mound" of evidence, and we could
think what with a mound of evidence and the other side claiming
nothing but utter nonsense there should be no problem with dispatching
of any revisionist claims and questions. 

>        I too have been challenged as to why I had to write a book
>exposing the background and methodology of the deniers.

	Right here is a most ridiculous statement. Maybe Mr.Kelley can
translate it into something understandable. What the sequence has
been, is, she has been challenged to a debate, she refused, and opted
instead to write a book "exposing the background and methodology of
the deniers" in lieu of using the mounds of evidence to undo the utter
nonsense.
	Of course in a U.S. court system we couldn't accept this as proof
of the Holocaust, could we? What she opted to do is, to try to simply
attack the character and methodology of her opponents in lieu of
unleashing the mounds of evidence.
	All this could have been and can be accomplished in open debate
if she ever gets up the guts to accept.

>  Had they been
>ignored from the outset, my book would also be superfluous.  But too many
>people, including naive students and talk show hosts, treat them as an
>other "point of view." So a comprehensive analysis of the deniers was
>necessary.

	 Here she states again the motive and contents of her book, "a
comprehensive analysis of the deniers" instead of a comprehensive
analysis of denier arguments and presenting the awesome stuff she
claims.

	David Irving, at a recent lecture in Southern California scoffed
at her stating in her book that he had a big portrait of Adolph Hitler
over his desk and other allegations. Will she ever be put to the test,
or will she ever submit to a debate, or interview as to her sources
for this inclusion? Will she ever submit herself to answer any
questions about her book from anyone other than her own choosing to
give a full accounting of the things she puts in her books?  No. 
	She has written many things about many people, but by her own
brief account here she has not made one attempt at undoing any of what
they had to say, all she has done is to write things in her book about
them, such as Irving, and will not stand accountable on her own
initiative.

	Does Ms.Lipstadt use way out examples to make a point. Every
movement has their lunatic fringe and we could take notice of any
concentration on that instead of on the substance of revisionist
points and questions. 
	
>Deborah E. Lipstadt
>Atlanta, Nov. 2, 1993
>
>(_NY Times_, Nov 8, 1993, p. A-18)
>
>
>Mr. Moran apparently does not understand the concept of attributing a
>statement to others in order to refute it.  
>
>Here's a scenario: Suppose Mr. Moran wrote "There are some who claim that
>the Holocaust happened, that millions of innocent people were wiped out
>by the Nazis," and then went on to argue that he didn't think that was
>the case.  Would Mr Moran consider it accurate if I then wrote, "Tom
>Moran admits that `Millions of innocent people were wiped out by the
>Nazis'"? That's precisely equivalent to what he's done to Lipstadt's text,
>although Mr. Moran seems wholly unable to recognize it.

	Mr.Kelley should use this whole sequence as a lesson for his
class and see what they have to say. Maybe they could make a
connecting relevance to Mr. Kelley's 'parable' example above. 

	I would say Ms.Lipstadt is thoroughly corrupt. Whether she knows
it or not, that is another question. 

	Her statement above, "They argue Pressac's book is superfluous;
the tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof" is, 'What they
say; what she says'.

	I would rate Mr.Kelley in the same ranks as Ms.Lipstadt.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)   
>
>"The level of discourse in campaigns is so low, we really may 
>as well get in a tub of Jello and wrestle."
>   --Rep. Patricia Schroeder, on Comedy Central's "Politically Incorrect"
>
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 09:13:14 PDT 1996
Article: 66068 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:31:00 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 7
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	They use it to build orbitting mind-control lasers, Tommy.
Better check your tinfoil.

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 11:00:04 PDT 1996
Article: 66075 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: USS Liberty:  Relevance to Alt.Revisionism
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:56:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>The reason why the USS Liberty and Qana are relevant to alt.revisionism is
>because Jews are always complaining about disputed atrocities committed by
>the Nazis. Yet -they- commit undisputed atrocities against other people
>(which they call "mistakes" to conceal them).  

	Exactly.

>Jews constantly harp about supposed German atrocities. Yet when they
>commit atrocities, they conceal them, and deny them.  It is lying. It is
>hypocrisy.  

	Exactly.

>If Nazis committed deliberate atrocities, then Jews are no better than
>Nazis because Jews commit atrocities themselves, both against American
>servicemen and against Arabs.  What is more, Jews are actually worse
>because they lie to conceal the atrocities.

	Exactly.

>Germans supposedly murdered so therefore Jews get millions of dollars
>every year for "Holocaust" memorabiliia.  Yet Jews murder Arabs or U.S.
>servicemen and there are no "Holocaust" remembrances, or museums, or one
>Hollywood movie, yearly extractions of tax dollars.  There isn't even an
>admission.  It is a blatant double standard.

	Exactly.

>Jews complain about being forcibly deported from German society yet Jews
>forcibly removed Arabs from their lands and killed several thousands of
>Arabs, to take their land.  More hypocrisy.  

	Exactly.

>The upshot of it is this:  Jewish hypocrisy has far too blamed other
>peoples for the very things they do themselves.  It is a "Big Lie."  

	Exactly.

>Kurt Stele



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 11:00:05 PDT 1996
Article: 66080 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews:  Most Racist of Peoples
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:26:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 11
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:


	The Jews become so arrogant to the host society that they think
they can say whatever they want, but in the end, they leave a record.
In the case of the United States now playing the host, they have
committed themselves to thousands of columns, letters to the editors,
full, quarter and half page ads that tells it all.

	'We the Jews are the most brilliant and benevolent in the whole
world. Arabs, Catholics, Muslims, well, everyone else is scum'. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 11:00:05 PDT 1996
Article: 66083 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: And the - real ashes?
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:21:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <323ac4c2.4255094@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[Moran's drivel snipped]
>
>> The only evidence I recall is a room mentioned that held urns. 
>
>Then you don't "recall" much do you, Moran? 
>
>Why don't you refresh your memory by pointing your riggii at:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/crematoria/burning-pits

	Oh no. Not a U R L. Not that.

	Okay Mr.VanAlstine, you got me.

	But wait a minute. Why don't you just post it? 


>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 11:36:14 PDT 1996
Article: 66093 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Going for the gold, Holocaust $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$,$$$
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:44:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	             L.A. Times, Sept. 16, 1996

	"Swiss to Aid in Recovery of Nazi Victims' Assets"

"Europe: Banks will help trace
 accounts left by those killed
 in Holocaust. Heirs are told
 not to expect billions.

	LONDON -- As a boy, Sebastian Kornhauser remembers being
fascinated by his grandmother's tales of life back in Poland more than
half a century before. The more he heard the madder he got.
	'What has happened to us is an outrage. I want to legally reclaim
what has been taken from my family'. ($$$$$ that is)
	At 21, he may be the youngest player in a suddenly revived quest
for gold ...
	Billions remain in the secure and quiet vaults of Swiss banks,
according to a British government report published last week on the
heels of new American research. ....
	Meeting today, the Swiss parliament is set to approve legislation
allowing the investigation of Jewish assets entrusted to Swiss banks
between 1933 and 1945. ...
	...
	But bankers in Switzerland -- which was neutral during the war --
say the reality is not apt to match popular imagination of a rightful
balancing of the books.
	'We have every interest in settling the matter, once and for
all,' Mathis Cabiallavetta, chief exec. of Union Bank of Switzerland,
told reporters ... But he cautioned, people expecting to find
'billions and zillions' in bullion are likely to be disappointed.
	...
	...
	'Rivers of gold flowed out of Nazi Germany. Its banks were in
Switzerland' says Greville Janner, a member of Parliment and chairman
of the Holocaust Educational Trust here.
	The Swiss Bankers Assn. says that a recent survey of its members
uncovered775 accounts dormant since 1945 with about 40 million in
them. Volcker's team [U.S.] will focus on accounts on a case by case
basis, with the burden of proof resting heavily on claimants.
	...
	Now events have come full circle. Even if family heirs cannot be
identified, Jewish activists say, there is a lot of good that could be
done with the dormant money.
	'It should go to help Jewish groups ...' said Judith Hassan,
director of the 675-member Holocaust Survivors Center here."
=====================================================================


	"Even if family heirs cannot be identified, Jewish activists say,
there is a lot of good that could be done with the dormant money."
Seems they want the $$$$$$$, even if it can't be shown it is theirs.
=======================================================================

	Holocaust final exam.

	The reason the Jews are so obsessed to shove the Holocaust story
is,

A. So that the world will know the horrors of evil?

B. To get gold and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$?

	
  


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 16 18:39:28 PDT 1996
Article: 66139 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:43:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
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rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:


>Thank you, Mr. Moran.  It brings back memories.  Thank you also for
>implicitly admitting that you cannot address the issues I raised.

	Really? What issues did you raise that were not addressed?


>You seem to undersatnd that you don't have a case.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"Remember the days of yore,
>"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>       -Deuteronomy 32:7



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 03:36:45 PDT 1996
Article: 66248 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Best of "Rajiv Gandhi"
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:40:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Usually when compiling a list of the best things Holocaust
dependents have said, Moran just sorts by name and then transfers the
stuff over to the relevant post. Moran dreamed up another method of
compiling. Do it as it happens.
=====================================================================

	"Personally I believe it is because Moron... oops Moran cannot
reconcile himself with the fact that he is an anti-semite. I think
Moron.. jeez there I go again.. Moran hates himself. Wouldn¹t you hate
yourself if you were father to you sister¹s cat ?"

"Rajiv Gandhi".


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 08:56:38 PDT 1996
Article: 66283 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Main Convincing Point for Revisionism
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:07:00 GMT
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	I find one certain aspect of the Holocaust controversy that tilts
ears and minds in the direction of the revisionists side of the story,
right away.  Once this is shown, they become very attentive. 
	The aspect is - the presentation of the Holocaust prosecution
efforts to block any further discussion on the matter.  
	Any excuses for refusing to discuss it, any manifestation of the
child logic, all the charges of "hate" and "racism" can not stamp out
the basic prevalent human nature to be suspicious of someone who
professes something and then not only refuses to discuss it, but
actually tries to stop any further discussion.  
	
ed. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 08:56:38 PDT 1996
Article: 66287 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:29:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Mr."McFee". He writes "no line before it's time". 
======================================================================

	For any newcomers who might not know, Mr."McFee" is an ardent
commentator for the Holocaust story on alt.revisionism. Keep an eye on
his stuff. He is one of their best.
                 --------------------------

	I don't know, Sara.  Moron may have trouble manipulating that
tricky dial thingie in his telephone.  

DTs rule! 
Gord McFee
---

	Annie, he can't help it.  Try not to be too hard on the guy.

Gord McFee
---

Moron, Annie could stoop as low as a human could stoop, but she could
never stoop low enough to descend to your level.

BTW, what color is your hair?  Your eyes?

Gord McFee
---

Tommy might try that, but if he did, he would be lying about his
earlier postings.

Gord McFee
---


Because he *is* Giwer.

Gord McFee
---


Tommie, I fear you are near the end.  I have to tell you.  ZOG will
get me, but please ponder this clue.  TROLL!!!

Gord McFee
---


Wrong again.

Gord McFee
---


Poor Tommy.  Even after the troll is explained to him, he still
doesn't get it.

Gord McFee
---


With pleasure.  A "nibling" is the person who puts those small points
on the end of fountain pens.

I'm proud to be a nibling.

Gord McFee
---


Control yourself, Derek.  Now if someone would just tell us what a
"Moran" is.

Gord McFee
---


It sounds like you are describing one of Giwer's fathers in faith.
AH.

Gord McFee
---


Poor Tommie.  TROLL.

Gord McFee
---


No problem.  McFly and Giwer will have lots to talk about.

Gord McFee
---


Good to see Giwer so happy about the legions of support that Mr. McVay
gets.

Who is Matt Giwer?  An admitted liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

Whois Matt Giwer?  A proven liar.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

Whois Matt Giwer?  A person who plagarises.

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html

Gord McFee
---


I have done a couple of pages, and God knows what behind the scenes.
I am listed as a Nizkor contributor.  So old Giwer *has* to sue me,
along with the other members of the Gang of 9,000,000.  I can hardly
wait.  Does the word "factum" ring a bell?  :-)

Gord McFee
---


That pathetic old shit isn't going to sue anyone.  He knows that the
instant he tries, he'll be served my libel papers, assuming he's not
already in the slammer.  Pure troll BS.

Gord McFee
---


WE are all around you, Moron.

Gord McFee
---

Which explains why Moron doesn't know it.

I would like to be number 9...number 9...number 9 (gee, reminds me of
a song).

I am an honorary schmuck and an aspiring fatbroad.

Gord McFee
---


There's something up with the BOSS and the FBs.  My damn decoder ring
still hasn't been replaced.

Gord McFee
---


I KNOW who ersatz real FB is, and there's gonna be trouble.  

Gord McFee
---

After you were lead to believe, in a cleverly worded FB post, that a
FBTS was a possibility.  I sympathise with you Rajiv.  BTW, I didn't
get one either, and no one whined as much as I did.  Got the yacht
though.  :-)

Gord McFee
---


Let's not start that fatbroad stuff again!  I said *aspiring*
fatbroad.  BTW, where *are* the fatbroads.  They have been remarkably
quiet lately.

Gord McFee
---


Morom asks dumb questions because that's the only kind he is capable
of asking.

:>It's fun though, to realize that Moran at least has Matt for
support. 
:>What goes around, comes around, Moran. (in the third person yet).

Pretty telling: Giwer, Stele and Moron have a mutual hardon for each
other.

Mind you, there is some commonality there.  All three lie, all three
have falsified evidence, all three are idiots.

Gord McFee
---


I don't know what is funnier--a back and forth between Moron and
Giwer, or Moron and Al Baron.  Moron's stupidity is beyond
comprehension.  Who is Clare, he asks.  How can he presume to "debate"
the Holocaust when he is so supremely ignorant of it?

:>	But wait a minute. Since Mr.Edeiken had to "retract" his claim
:>under questioning and demands to prove it, we have only 424. Now if
we had the chance to confront the others, the answer would end up at
0.  

Mr. Edeiken retracted nothing, and Moron knows it.  Another lie, a
habit which the deniers seem to be very good at.

Gord McFee
---


I think Tommie's reverted to his "wee-wee" stage again.  

Gord McFee
---


I thought we were all Ken's lovers.

Gord McFee
---










From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 08:56:39 PDT 1996
Article: 66289 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:30:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


Incoherent, Mr. Giwer.
 
Than when you're stealing.
 
What you wrote is grammatically nonsensical.
 
And since you've stated so on so many occasions, there's nothing wrong
with me (or Mr. Ghandi) pointing out your stupidity, is tehre?
 
Sara



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 08:56:40 PDT 1996
Article: 66290 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:30:12 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 9
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


Takes one to know that, eh, Mr. Blackmore/Belling?
 
Sorry... I couldn't resist. These guys make it so EASY.
 
Sara



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 08:56:40 PDT 1996
Article: 66292 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil CIA
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:31:10 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	As a recent flurry of accounts detailing some of the USS Liberty
history shows, the U.S. crew members, including 170 wounded, seem to
disagree with Chuck.

	The 170 wounded would be those still living who Annie Alpert, one
of the outspoken voices for the validity of the Holocaust story,
inferred they got what they deserved. 

	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 13:56:00 PDT 1996
Article: 66385 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: USS Liberty:  Relevance to Alt.Revisionism
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:59:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <51if39$1d9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:
>
>> The reason why the USS Liberty and Qana are relevant to alt.revisionism is
>> because Jews are always complaining about disputed atrocities committed by
>> the Nazis. Yet -they- commit undisputed atrocities against other people
>> (which they call "mistakes" to conceal them).  
>
>Sorry, Mr. "Stele:"
>  
>That plow won't scour.
> 
>Pull the other one.
> 
>There is no relation between Holocaust revisionism and the U.S.S. Liberty.
>Period.
> 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler

	The Holocaust initiated the state of Israel. Whatever the Jews do
for the Jewish state is a direct result made possible by this
originating event.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 13:56:02 PDT 1996
Article: 66387 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Index
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:07:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <323d5ecd.2619812@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323c3cef.9280402@news.pacificnet.net> <51i9ll$h6l@news.enter.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  	This is a list of Moran's postings on alt.revisionism. These are
>>  the posts that Nizkor fears to include in it's dossier on Moran in a
>>  straight foward way.
>  
>>  	These are the "neo-Nazi" - "anti-Semitic" postings that have
>>  terrorized the Holocaust dependents. 
>
>	It should be noted that Moran has eliminated some of his more 
>outrageous posts from this list.  Specifically he has eliminated all of his posts, 
>including "Time for a Showdown" in which he attributed a lawsuit filed by the KKKK 
>to a "Jewish group."  He has also fails to mention his psots about the Dead Sea 
>Scrolls in which he blamed acts committed by a group dominated by Catholic 
>priests -- and which specifically excluded Jews from membership -- as "the Jews."  
>Also missing are his silliness where he demonstrates his basic inabililty to use 
>numbers when he tried to compute the number of trees in Israel.

	Thanks for the info. You gave one title, can you come back and
give the other two so I can include them - next time?

>	The truth is that Moran is a liar and an anti-Semite.
>
>	He hasn't the guts even to deny those basic facts; instead he blames the 
>victims of his foul an venomous  bigotry for objecting to it.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 14:50:40 PDT 1996
Article: 66401 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:31:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <323e9a12.644105@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323c295c.4270089@news.pacificnet.net> <15SEP199615591203@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <323c295c.4270089@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>				
>>	The Holocaust promotional network's pet word.
>
>    Au contraire.  Tom Moran's manifesto is HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE.
>
>    I offer as evidence for this the same evidence I offered the last time
>    Tommy made this ridiculous assertion.  I note, in posting it all again
>    below, that Tommy never refuted my assertion of his manifesto.  He
>    simply declared he would not talk to me anymore.
>
>    I assert again:  Tom Moran is a liar and a hate-filled bigot.
>
>    Evidence for this can be pulled from almost all of Tommy's self written
>    posts.  Towards that, I repost several previous responses to Tommy:
>
>Date: 4 Jul 1996 12:34 MST
>In Message-ID: <31dbcc2f.1599855@news.pacificnet.net> Tom Moran wrote:
>
>         Now Mr.Mittleman has posted that the words "HATE HATE HATE ETC are
>         "Tom Moran's manifesto". It would be interesting in seeing how
>         Mr.Mittleman would go about supporting his conclusion.
>
>    OK, here is another example:
>
>In article <31dbfd84.3660037@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>
>>Who do these people think they are getting involved with the
>>American education system? These are the same people who committ
>>themselves to closing down Palestinian schools and universities. Their
>>only motive is to introduce Zionist propaganda into our education
>>systems. And here we have this element being accomodated by this goofy
>>Nizkor and it's evident idiotic staff of McVay, McCarthy and Hilary,
>>and the phantom directors that finance the site.  
>>... 
>>In the end they try to sell us on their rhetoric by citing that
>>their archives are "Straight from print-outs of news papers" and
>>"studies done by experts in this field". Some of these experts would
>>be the likes of the ADL, American Jewish Committee, American Jewish
>>Congress and any goyem lackies.
>>... 
>>The fact is, other than having governmental persons submitting to
>>the pushy, bluster demands of the Jews, they are in it alone. Very
>>few, if any goyem organizations are actively involved in supporting or
>>endorsing any of their crap. The only thing they get is cowtowing from
>>persons out to save their own positions so as not have the Jews
>>conspire to unseat them. No one knows it more than the Jews
>>themselves.
>>... 
>>Jeruselem One, located in the land that shoots down children,
>>routs whole populations of civilians, bombs their camps, their
>>villages, spits at the U.N., and then has a myriad in their "amen
>>corner" here in the U.S. getting their stuff into the major medias
>>telling us how right it all is.
>
>    Moran went on to say I needed to show how each statement was filled
>    with HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE.  I think it is self-evident, but if he
>    wants me to do it again, all he need do is ask.
>
	Do it again. In fact you should have just done it when you posted
this thing. The reason you didn't is because you know your previous
attempt was idiotic and you want to see if you can bluff your way. Do
it again.

	Next time I repost this article and you respond with the
samething, don't lop off that which was being commented on. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 17:40:25 PDT 1996
Article: 66445 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:40:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <323e9c42.1204230@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322ee41c.2598721@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Hey Brainiac!
 
Go get a copy of HLTM Markdown and STOP POSTING HTML in Usenet!
 
Hugs,
Sara



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 17 21:37:20 PDT 1996
Article: 66477 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!imci3!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:11:08 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <323d5f50.2750918@news.pacificnet.net>
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>:                               [repost]
>: 	                    
>:                              New York Times
>:                              Jan. 10, 1996
>: 
>:                       "Jewish Rights Group Urges Ban
>:                      Of All Hate Messages on Internet"
>: 
>: 	"Citing '"the rapidly expanding presence of organized hate groups
>: on the Internet,"' a leading Jewish human rights group yesterday began
>: sending letters to hundreds of Internet access providers and
>: universities asking them to refuse to carry messages that '"promote
>: racism, anti-Semitism, mayhem and violence"'.
>: 	The letter from the Simon Weisenthal Center, a 425,000-member
>: organization ... is the latest in a growing effort by legislators and
>: private interest groups to censor offensive material ... which now
>: connects millions of computer users worldwide.
>
>This is rank stupidity on the part of the SWC.  How does it bear on the
>historical reality of the Holocaust?

	Mr.Anderson is a 'funny' individual. Here the Simon Wiesenthal
Center, which Mr.Anderson, surprisingly, says are committing "rank
stupidity", trying to stifle talk on the Holocaust and he ask for the
relevance of the "historical reality of the Holocaust".
	

>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 18 09:13:29 PDT 1996
Article: 66568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:38:49 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <323d5867.982168@news.pacificnet.net>
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 	
>: 	A "goyim" is a non-Jew.
>
>Wrong.
>
>Do keep trying, though.

	"Wrong" you say? Okay, correct it.
>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 18 09:13:30 PDT 1996
Article: 66569 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!coranto.ucs.mun.ca!news.unb.ca!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:38:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <323d5862.976786@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net> <323ad748.8997483@news.pacificnet.net> <323b4ee2.400183@news.pacificnet.net> <51htp5$jc0@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	Concisely, the word "goy" or "goyim" is a racial reference. More
>: concisely yet, a racial slur. 
>
>Whoops.  Wrong again.  Since a goy is a person who isn't Jewish,
>and "Jewish" is not a race, "goy" can't possibly be a racial 
>reference.
>
>As to it's being a slur:  it can be used that way.  What's your
>point?
>
>Bill

	Really?

	Questions for Mr.Anderson:

	What is meant by the term "half Jewish"?
	What is meant by the term "he/she looks Jewish"?
	What is the connotations of a Jew being automatically a Jew if
the mother is a Jew?
	Why do Jews use the term "racist" when condemning an adversary?
	Why do they use the term "Semitic" which is in line with the
categories Negro, Caucasian, Oriental or Amerind?
	Why are Jews susceptible to certain diseases, one even being
almost exclusive?

	I believe we can stand by for Mr.Anderson to give us his 'best'. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 18 12:05:36 PDT 1996
Article: 66626 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of "Rajiv Gandhi"
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:17:51 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <323ff66b.385298@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323d659b.4361319@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	Usually when compiling a list of the best things Holocaust
>dependents have said, Moran just sorts by name and then transfers the
>stuff over to the relevant post. Moran dreamed up another method of
>compiling. Do it as it happens.
>=====================================================================



Personally I believe it is because Moron... oops Moran cannot
reconcile himself with the fact that he is an anti-semite. I think
Moron.. jeez there I go again.. Moran hates himself. Wouldn¹t you hate
yourself if you were father to you sister¹s cat ?

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---


I sent a fax, you twit.

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---


Ouch. You really stung me with that one. Tell me again, oh Moron, how
many trees in Israel ?

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---


What are all the countries who recognize the horror of the Holocaust,
in which your beady eyed little love hero, impotent though he was,
perpetrated the systematic extermination of more than 6 million
people, including Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and political prisoners.
Well, that is, all countries except for Christians, which according to
Big Bird is one of those things that doesn't belong.

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---


Aren't the underwear made of tinfoil ? I thought the hats were made of
aluminum.

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---


Sue me too you anti-semetic nazi loving creep. In fact, my address for
service is, c/o the University of Victoria (Begbie Building),
Victoria, British Columbia.

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---


I'm a strong contender for 11. I wan't it noted for the record that I
was this close to being called a fatbroad, and am still disappointed
that I can't get the  FBTS.

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---


Yacht, smacht. Anybody can buy a yacht, especially those supported by
the world controlling Jooooos. I want the shirt. The shirt has more
intrinsic value that your sister's cat.

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---


Are you really this much of an idiot or were your parents brother and
sister ?

"Rajiv Gandhi"
---





From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 18 12:05:37 PDT 1996
Article: 66627 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:19:15 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <323ff6b3.457030@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net> <51htk7$jc0@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <323d5867.982168@news.pacificnet.net> <323ea193.2565766@news.pacificnet.net> <51maun$abs@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>: >>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: >>: 	
>: >>: 	A "goyim" is a non-Jew.
>: >>
>: >>Wrong.
>: >>
>: >>Do keep trying, though.
>: >
>: >	"Wrong" you say? Okay, correct it.
>: 
>: 	While this Anderson individual slinks back from righting the
>: "wrong" he alleges, he is off posting more idiocy elsewhere.
>
>Sigh.
>
>No, Tom.  I responded at once to your request for a correction.  I
>informed you that you had already been corrected several times.
>"Goyim" is plural.
>
>Bill

	The statement was, "A "goyim" is a non-Jew".

	Your reply was "Wrong".

	When challenged to "right" the definition, you come back with a
plurilization reply, not part of the exchange.

	Mr.Anderson will always give it his 'best'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 18 12:05:37 PDT 1996
Article: 66628 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!clio.trends.ca!news3.buffnet.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:06:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <323ea1fe.2672595@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net> <323ad748.8997483@news.pacificnet.net> <323b4ee2.400183@news.pacificnet.net> <51htp5$jc0@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <323d5862.976786@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>>
>>: 	Concisely, the word "goy" or "goyim" is a racial reference. More
>>: concisely yet, a racial slur. 
>>
>>Whoops.  Wrong again.  Since a goy is a person who isn't Jewish,
>>and "Jewish" is not a race, "goy" can't possibly be a racial 
>>reference.
>>
>>As to it's being a slur:  it can be used that way.  What's your
>>point?
>>
>>Bill
>
>	Really?
>
>	Questions for Mr.Anderson:
>
>	What is meant by the term "half Jewish"?
>	What is meant by the term "he/she looks Jewish"?
>	What is the connotations of a Jew being automatically a Jew if
>the mother is a Jew?
>	Why do Jews use the term "racist" when condemning an adversary?
>	Why do they use the term "Semitic" which is in line with the
>categories Negro, Caucasian, Oriental or Amerind?
>	Why are Jews susceptible to certain diseases, one even being
>almost exclusive?
>
>	I believe we can stand by for Mr.Anderson to give us his 'best'. 

	While this Anderson individual slinks back from supporting his
blurts here, he is off posting more idiocy elsewhere.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 18 12:05:38 PDT 1996
Article: 66629 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde.nde.swri.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:22:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <323ff76c.641853@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32317319.1073014@news.pacificnet.net> <323ac512.4335230@news.pacificnet.net> <51he81$6h2@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <323d5938.1190499@news.pacificnet.net> <51k2vk$8hk@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:


	Mr.Green, since I plan on making a point of something in the
future, I would like to ask you a question.

	I notice you are at least a chemistry major at Sanford. I also
notice you have great interest in this Cracow Report, being for the
most part the only one that defends it.

	What I would like to know is, did you have anything to do with
preparing this document for Nizkor? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 18 16:27:16 PDT 1996
Article: 66656 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:18:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <323ff6a8.445826@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323ac4c6.4259433@news.pacificnet.net> <323ad748.8997483@news.pacificnet.net> <323b4ee2.400183@news.pacificnet.net> <51htp5$jc0@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <323d5862.976786@news.pacificnet.net> <323ea1fe.2672595@news.pacificnet.net> <51mbh5$abs@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>: >	Questions for Mr.Anderson:
>: >
>: >	What is meant by the term "half Jewish"?
>: >	What is meant by the term "he/she looks Jewish"?
>: >	What is the connotations of a Jew being automatically a Jew if
>: >the mother is a Jew?
>: >	Why do Jews use the term "racist" when condemning an adversary?
>: >	Why do they use the term "Semitic" which is in line with the
>: >categories Negro, Caucasian, Oriental or Amerind?
>: >	Why are Jews susceptible to certain diseases, one even being
>: >almost exclusive?
>: >
>: >	I believe we can stand by for Mr.Anderson to give us his 'best'. 
>: 
>: 	While this Anderson individual slinks back from supporting his
>: blurts here, he is off posting more idiocy elsewhere.
>
>That's because I don't understand your point, Tommy.  Are you trying 
>to prove that "Jewish" is a race?  The above doesn't do it; for one
>thing, "semitic" is a language group, unlike the other terms you
>mention.  Make your point clear, Tom, and I'll answer you.
>
>Bill

	I knew Mr.Anderson would give it his 'best'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 18 18:21:19 PDT 1996
Article: 66669 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL  "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:18:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
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ellegon@ibm.net (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <323e9ea4.1814172@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>>Subject: Re: ADL  "friends of free speech" excepting ...
>>Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:55:28 GMT
>
>>rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>>>      
>>>>                         [This is a repost]
>>>
>>>You misspelled "compost" again.
>>>
>>>>      Letter to the Editor,  L.A. Times,  Nov. 21, 1991
>>>
>>>Couldn't find anything any more recent than 1991? How about this:
>
>>        How about it? Match up what it says with the intial post. The
>>ACLU, with it's disproportionate number of Jews
>
>So you're saying that Jews are disproportionately concerned with issues of 
>civil liberties?  You may have staggered and stumbled onto a point there, 
>Tommy.  Thanks.

	Join up. Take the helm. Lead it down the rapids towards the
waterfall.
	Like they in our education system. Down, down, down.
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:30 PDT 1996
Article: 66697 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Mayer Gambit still won't fly
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:27:33 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <51ohhr$iq6@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>, 
>schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote:
>
>>Ken McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) wrote:
>
>>: Thank you for mentioning Arno Mayer. I assume you accept what
>>: he has written above as correct, and, when you cited him, you
>>: cited him in context, as I have done, right?
>
>>Actually, in my mind, by far the biggest weakness of his book was its
>>lack of footnotes (I have been told that Goldhagen's book, which I have
>>not read, suffers from the same problem -- so much for the quality of
>>historical research at Princeton and Harvard these days).  In Mayer's
>>case, it makes him look especially bad, because the documents that 
>>disprove his main thesis are actually rather easy to find.
>
>I don't have a copy of Mayer, but have heard the charge
>before, and have assumed it to be correct. That does not, of
>course, change the fact that deniers do their damnedest to
>make folks think he's a Holocaust denier by very selective,
>and _very_ dishonest, quoting of his work.

	McVay finds it convenient to say revisionist deem Mayer a
"denier" when the more accurate description would be showing that he
has to admit to certain things, not good for the story.


>Goldhagen includes over 120 pages of notes, so I don't think
>the observation is accurate in his case.
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:30 PDT 1996
Article: 66700 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:28:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>>         Really?
>> 
>>         Questions for Mr.Anderson:
>> 
>>         What is meant by the term "half Jewish"?
>
>Usually used by racists and idiots of all persuasions.

	Used by Jews themselves. Used in movies without complaint. "Good
Fellows"

>>         What is meant by the term "he/she looks Jewish"?
>
>Some people actually resemble the stereotype. Some of them are Jewish.
>Some aren't.

	Reported in the L.A.Times was an article on Spielberg in Poland
to do his "Schindler's List", where it was described how he sent a
casting agent along a line of people to seek out those who may "look
Jewish".

>>         What is the connotations of a Jew being automatically a Jew if
>> the mother is a Jew?
>
>The same as a child is considered Roman Catholic if the mother is Roman
>Catholic. Even in questions of paternity, the mother is still known.

	Idiotic. There is nothing in Catholic thoughts or edicts that
even remotely supports this. Gryspan will try anything. We will see
below where he has to totally cave into deeper idiocy. 

>>         Why do Jews use the term "racist" when condemning an adversary?
>
>Why do you - er - idiots - make silly statements like this?

	See what I mean. (He couldn't think of any 'direct' chutzpa.)

>Most Jews, like most humans, call racists racists and slime slime.

>The difference may be miniscule, but we musn't insult the slime by
>forgetting it.

	Interesting.

>>         Why do they use the term "Semitic" which is in line with the
>> categories Negro, Caucasian, Oriental or Amerind?
>
>Why do you lust over pictures of little boys? Same reasoning.

	Now it comes out. That which is on Mr.Grynspan's mind.

>*Jews* didn't invent the term "anti-semitic". It was coined by a
>journalist who wanted to label all Jews as semites. 

	Nevertheless, they use it. Extensively. "Anti-Semitic". Over and
over again.

>That's pretty silly, because semites are the various racial groups bound
>by a common heritage of LANGUAGE.

	Mr.Grynspan cites one of the peripheral definitions. It's not the
only on, or even the primary one. The one most relevant to the post
here, which he chose not to use. 

>>         Why are Jews susceptible to certain diseases, one even being
>> almost exclusive?
>
>Why are *SOME* Jews susceptible to certain diseases?
>
>For the same reason that many of Queen Victoria's offspring had
>haemophiliac children - a common ancestor that carried it.

	But not going way back. Its from inbreeding on up into current
times.

>Again - a presumption of race where it cannot apply.

	"a presumption of race where it cannot apply". Interesting
phrase. Anyway, all evidence applied shows Judaism as racist.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:31 PDT 1996
Article: 66702 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:28:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 55
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>> 
>> >   Alec Grynspan  writes:
>> >  tom moran wrote:
>> >  >
>> >  >    >         What is meant by the term "half Jewish"?
>> >
>> >  Usually used by racists and idiots of all persuasions.
>> >
>> >  >  >
>> >  >         What is the connotations of a Jew being automatically a Jew if
>> >  > the mother is a Jew?
>> >
>> rblackmore writes:
>> 
>> One question for anyone:  How does the State of Israel define a Jew? 
>
>Quite frankly, i don't care.  I wasn't aware that Israel had a legal
>definition of who is or is not Jewish.
>
>Can you point to the relevant legal code, document, etc.?

	The code is written in the minds of the Judaic body. There might
be a written code. I have read many times about who would qualify as a
candidate for citizenship in Israel. One with a Jewish mother.

>> I
>> once read a news item from a publication entitled "Jewish Currents".  It
>> related the story of a Jewish woman who emigrated to Israel after the
>> second world war.  
>
>I once read a magazine called "World Weekly News".  In it, i read
>that a person spontanously combusted during a comedy act from 
>laughing too hard.

	There is a phenomina that results in a persons body parts to
combust. It is usually an arm or an leg. Whether or not it happens
>from  laughing or this case was coincidental is something else. Do you
remember if the article said the whole person falmed up, or just a
arm?  

>Now, are we simply going to trade apocryphal, unverifiable examples, 
>or is there some point you're reaching for?


	Anyway, Judaism is a genetic movement, and anyone who tries to
argue against it will just end up looking as idiotic as the attempts
so far made here.

>Brian Harmon
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:32 PDT 1996
Article: 66707 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A crematory operato talk at Zunde's trial
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:27:00 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

	On seeing Mr.Beaulieu's post, I noticed there was a response
attached and even before I clicked it up I knew it would be the
hapless Mr.Keren.

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  writes:
>
># In the course of his career, Lagac had dealt with over 10,000
># bodies in his work and had cremated over 1,000 bodies.
>
>What did he do with the remaining 9,000 or so?
>
># If an operator attempted to introduce a body into the retort when
># temperatures were still excessive, a "flash ignition" could occur
># whereby the body would ignite be fore it was fully introduced into
># the retort. In such a case, the operator would be engulfed in
># flames from the burning body and would be unable to close the door
># to the retort. To put it simply, he said, "you can basically walk
># away and watch your building burn down."
>
>There you have it, folks. More "revisionist" science. Legace is
>trying to claim that continuous cremation is impossible, because
>if the corpse is inserted into a hot furnace, it may ignite like
>a napalm bomb and burn the crematorium down.
>
>The folks at the cremation web site must have never heard this; they
>write that after the furnace is already hot, the cremation time
>is reduced by a factor of two. This obviously means that they
>insert the corpses into a very hot furnace.
>
># Human bodies did not burn completely in open spaces. In 90 percent
># of the cases, it would be the epidermis or the skin that would be
># charred; maybe perhaps the limbs would be burnt, but the torso was
># very difficult to cremate.
>
>Yet we have testimony, and a photograph, of corpses being burned on
>large pyres in Dresden, after the city was bombed, in exactly the
>same manner as the corpses were burned in the death camps - in the
>open. Corpses are burned in India in this manner, BTW.
>
># He [Legace] also agreed that he had no experience operating in a
># system that placed no legal restrictions on how many bodies could
># be cremated, that had as its goal, not profit, but simply
># disposing of as many bodies as possible.
>
>Good. His testimony is therefore mostly irrelevant.

	Poor Mr.Keren.

>-Danny Keren.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:32 PDT 1996
Article: 66729 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Whole Diplomatic World Knows
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:55:15 GMT
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	The whole diplomatic world knows why the United States is the
only nation confronting Israel's enemy, Iraq.

	We're all by our lonesome. The United State's support of all
things Zionism is coming in to roost. After 4 decades of playing the
lackey, we are going to pay more than ever. 

	Not only can it be shown that nothing of any good for the United
States or the world has ever come of this submission, but that the
only thing that can be shown is that it has been a disaster for the
Untied States, and the world.

	As can be inferred from reviewing 20 years of columns,
editorials, unsigned editorials, letters to the editors and quarter,
half and full page ads by Jews, the message is 'Our enemies are your
enemies America, and any disagreement is an act of anti-Semitism'. Of
course there is the other battle cry, "Holocaust", "Holocaust",
"Holocaust".  


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:33 PDT 1996
Article: 66744 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kristalnacht in England
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:31:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 39
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         When David Irving's book "Goebbels" went on sale in England
>> "someone" went around and broke the windows of the book stores selling
>> the book. Then the 'someones' left a note telling the shop owners if
>> they wanted to make sure there was no more kristalnachting they better
>> stop selling the book.
>
>Erh, tom? 
>
>What's your source for this?
>
>
>>         Here in the U.S. we lucked out. The book was banned by the
>> process of cowtowing to a concerted foot stompin outraged indignation
>> by 'someone' and no windows got broken, yet.

	Clarification: Due to a campaign of foot stompin, selfrightous
show of outraged indignation, publishers in the U.S. refused to
publish the book. Mr.Irving had to publish the book himself.

>
>Wrong.  Set your web browsers to 
>
>http://http://www.books.com/scripts/news.exe?
>
>and follow the 'Search' option.
>
>You'll find several of his books available, including
>his book on Goering.
>
>
>Brian Harmon 
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:34 PDT 1996
Article: 66766 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 99% of the story, 99% wacked out
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:26:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 151
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	As becomes evident on studying the validity of the Holocaust
story, 99% of it is told by eyewitness testimony.

	When reviewing eyewitness accounts, it becomes evident that 99%
of these testimonies are wacked out. 

	Posted here are a few comments released by Ingrid Rimland.
Stuff in ( ) is Moran's commentary. 	
                       ==================
	
*       Rudolf Vrba, an extremely important eyewitness to the
Holocaust Lobby, wrote "I Cannot Forgive", a book which stated in the
foreword that it was "meticulous" and written with a "fanatical
respect for accuracy"
(p.2).

Under cross-examination, however, by defense lawyer Doug Christie in
the Zundel case in 1985, Vrba back pedaled in panic and admitted that
the book was merely an "artistic expression" which belonged to the
"realm of a literary afternoon."

	(This is what happens when the Jews are confronted with cross
examination. Vrba's first impulse was probably to jump up and scream
"anti-Semitism" but then this would have been an awkward time to try
that.)


*       Kurt Gerstein, heavily relied upon by Holocaust historian Raul
Hilberg as a "witness" to the Holocaust, was admitted by Hilberg to
have been a person who had spoken "pure nonsense."  ("Experts'
admission:  Some gas death 'facts' nonsense" Toronto Sun, January 17,
1985)

	(This is what happens when Jews are confronted with their stuff.)


*       Fillip Muller, another important witness to shore up the gas
chamber claim, wrote in his book "Eyewitness Auschwitz" that muscles
of those who had been shot were cut from their legs by the Germans and
thrown into a bucket.  He claimed the muscles "were still working and
contracting, making the bucket jump about."

	(Sort of reminds me of testimony that Jews were taken on short
train rides from Belzec, where the cars had Quicklime spread out on
the floors. "The train" with it's "quivering cargo of flesh seemed to
throb, vibrate, rock and jump as if bewitched". "The train began to
move and sob, wail and howl".)


*       Arnold Friedman, another prosecution witness in the 1985
Zündel trial, testified that he could tell different nationalities
being burned in the concentration crematories.  "Skinny Polish Jews"
as opposed to "fat Hungarian Jews", claimed Friedman, gave off
different-colored flames, shooting 14 feet high out of the chimney.
(Zündel trial transcript 1985, pages 406-407)  It mattered little to
this man that flames do NOT shoot out of crematory chimneys, according
to court testimony.

	(Present day opinions have it that Physics undergoes the same
principles every where in the universe. The problem with present day
physicists is they don't know about Holocaust physics.) 

*       Dr. Henry Heller was "saved" at Auschwitz when a former
colleague, a German, recognized him as he was being led to the gas
chambers and "mercifully turned on the water instead of the gas."
(Chicago Tribune, May 4, 1975)

	(Is this the only evidence for a one man gas chamber, or did the
whole bunch get away? What happened? Did they turn off the water, let
him out, then closed the door and did it right? What the German
"former colleague" opened the door after they turned off the water,
yelled in and said, 'Hey Joe, come on, get out of there'? What, as Joe
was coming out, the German former colleague turned around and said to
the others, 'It's okay, he's a friend of mine'? Where was the water
coming in? Was it -- shower heads? And one more little question, the
former colleague of the former colleague said the former colleague
turned on the water instead of the gas. But isn't this supposed to
have been at Auschwitz, where they poured the gas in through holes in
the roof or little windows on the sides?













) 

*       Rudolf Kauer, a former inmate of Auschwitz, admitted he lied
when he accused former Auschwitz personnel of beating a Polish girl on
her breasts with a bullwhip, ripping one breast off.  "I lied," he
said.  "That was just a yarn going about in the camp.  I never saw
it."  (Miami Herald, July 7, 1964)

	(No problem here. What with the million dollars just given to
Steven Spielberg for interviewing the 50,000 remaining "survivors"
this one little lie will just be a speck among the 50,000 un admitted
lies coming up.)

*       Prof. Michael de Bouard said this:  "The record is rotten to
the core.  On one hand a considerable amount of fantasies,
inaccuracies, obstinately repeated (in particular concerning numbers)
heterogeneous mixtures, generalizations, and on the other hand, very
dry critical studies {by Revisionists} that demonstrate the inanity of
those exaggerations."
(quest-France, August 1986)
	

*       From Samuel Gringauz, whose style is a bit overwrought, we
have the following:  "The hyper historical complex {of survivors} may
be described as judeocentric, logocentric and egocentric. . .  This is
the reason why most of the memoirs and reports are full of
preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks, and apologies."
(Jewish Social Studies, January 1950).

*       Yad Vashem director Krakowski, by contrast, speaks plainly.
He says that many survivors, wanting to be part of history, may have
let their imagination run away with them.

According to an August 1986 article in the Jerusalem Post:   "Many
were never in the places where they claim to have witnessed
atrocities, while others relied on second-hand information given them
by friends or passing strangers" according to Krakowski.  Over half of
20,000 survivor accounts were found by Yad Vashem to be "unreliable"
and "inaccurate."	

Have you heard of "Brentar's Dog", whose name was entered as a
"victim"?

	(It's certainly seems objective for the Yad Vashim Center to
admit that over half of the 20,000 survivor accounts are "unreliable"
and "inaccurate", but then this would imply that the other half is
accurate and reliable. Tricky. I wonder if "Bentar's Dog" is listed
among the 3,000,000 names of those exterminated and 'compiled' by the
Yad Vashim Center?
	I also wonder how the Vad Yashim Center only has 20,000 "survivor
accounts", taken over the 50 year period we should presume, and here
and now there are still 50,000 more, which we're paying Spielberg a
million dollars to interview.)

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:35 PDT 1996
Article: 66775 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:27:40 GMT
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

	I read this over and all I can say is Mr.Kelley should turn it
over to his class and see if they can figure it out.
	The only comment I would care to make on it at this time is that
any reader should take special note of all the capitalized stressed
words.
	I really hate it when they do this. It gives their stuff such
authority and validity. Stressing the words is a powerful literary
tool. It really gets the point across.

>Tom Moran's misreading of Deborah Lipstadt's 11/8/93 letter to the _New
>York Times_ is so full of illogic that sorting out his lies and errors will
>take a bit of effort.  For the sake of clarity, it might be useful to  
>reference my two earlier replies to Mr. Moran's distortion of this
>letter, archived at:
>
>www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/l/lipstadt.deborah/press/ny-times.110893
>www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-repeats-lipstadt-lie
>
>On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> >On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote, regarding Deborah Lipstadt's
>
>> >> 	Anyway, the gist of her mentality and criteria for historical
>> >> accuracy lies in her statement "They argue Pressac's book is
>> >> superfluous; the tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof."
>> >> 
>> >> 	Let me reiterate Deborah's terse statement on historical
>> >> accounting;
>> >> 
>> >>      "...; THE TEARS OF THE SURVIVORS SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT PROOF".
>[snip]
>> >
>> > But golly, Mr. Moran--she is saying that this is what OTHERS say.  She is
>> >not saying that she believes this--in fact, she goes on to explicitly say
>> >that Holocaust deniers must be countered with facts, and that therefore
>> >Pressac's book is necessary.
>> 
>> They argue Pressac's book is superfluous; the tears of the survivors
>> should be sufficient proof.
>> 
>> These are the words. I left off quote marks so it is clear that the
>> sentence is Ms.Lipstadt's and not a reference to something a
>> revisionist said, as Mr.Kelley is trying to infer. 
>
>Wrong, Mr. Moran.  In both clauses of the sentence, Dr. Lipstadt is
>referring to _survivors_ and others who complain that Pressac's book is
>"superfluous."  She is not referring to "revisionists" here.
>
>> The first part of the sentence is her statement on what revisionists
>> argue, the part, after a semicolon, is her statement on what should
>> suffice. A semicolon is different than a comma. It is defined in the
>> dictionary as "used to indicate a major division in a sentence". 
>
>No, no, no, Mr. Moran--once again, though, you have given me a rather
>interesting punctuation exercise to use with my students. (Remember your
>problem with commas when we were discussing U.S. Supreme Court decisions?)
>A semicolon does indeed mark "a major division in a sentence."  However,
>in this sentence, it does NOT indicate that the second clause is 
>Lipstadt's opinion.  According to one textbook, "semicolons can be used to
>join independent clauses if the second clause restates or sets up a
>contrast to the first." Read in the full context of her letter, it is
>readily apparent that the second clause _restates_ the first--i.e., that
>Lipstadt is attributing the claim that "the tears of the survivors should
>be sufficient proof" to the same people who claim that Pressac's book is
>"superfluous."  She disagrees with people who make such claims, and then
>goes on to explain why documentary work such as Pressac's is important. 
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Hey, let's look again at the full text of her letter....
>> >
>> >"       Jean Claude Pressac's book detailing how the Nazi gas chambers at
>> >Auschwitz actually worked (news article, Oct. 28, Week in Review Oct 31)
>> >has elicited condemnation from a variety of sources contending that
>> >"genocide was possible because it happened."
>> 
>> 	Now she is not giving the full sentence here, is she? Why not?
>
>She was quoting it accurately. Here, however, is the full
>paragraph in the 10/28/93 _NY Times_ article about Pressac's book:
>
>	Some concentration camp survivors and their children living in
>	France have reacted angrily, saying in a statement that the book
>	amounts to the height of cynicism.  "Genocide was possible because
>	it happened," they said. (_NY Times_, Oct. 28 1993, p. A3)
>
>Nothing in this paragraph indicates that Lipstadt is misquoting anyone.
>Are you arguing that she is quoting the source inaccurately?
>
>> 
>> > They argue that Pressac's work is superfluous; the tears of the 
>> >survivors should be sufficient proof.
>> 
>> 	The sentence of controversy.
>> 
>> >"        In the best of all possible worlds they would be right.  The
>> >testimony of those who suffered as well as the corroboration of the
>> >perpetrators themselves would be the ultimate proof.
>> 
>> 	Now this sentence is hard to relate to any preceding relevance
>> which she implies with "...they could be right". She states that
>> testimonies are the ultimate proof, whereas we could very well say
>> that actual photographs of what should be there, according to
>> Holocaust evidence and real forensic reports, and documents that are
>> not subject to interpretations, but actually say something concrete. 
>
>Well, no. She states that in the best of all possible worlds, a book
>that goes over already-proven facts _would_ be superfluous, and the fact
>that both the survivors AND the perpetrators were in agreement on what
>happened should settle the matter.  However, note that she uses the phrase
>"in the best of all possible worlds," Mr. Moran. People use tht phrase
>when they are acknowledge that ours is NOT the best possible world.  So
>once again, this paragraph argues directly AGAINST the notion that
>testimony is sufficient proof.
>
>[big snip]
>
>> >        I too have been challenged as to why I had to write a book
>> >exposing the background and methodology of the deniers.
>> 
>> 	Right here is a most ridiculous statement. Maybe Mr.Kelley can
>> translate it into something understandable. What the sequence has
>> been, is, she has been challenged to a debate, she refused, and opted
>> instead to write a book "exposing the background and methodology of
>> the deniers" in lieu of using the mounds of evidence to undo the utter
>> nonsense.
>
>Mr. Moran is apparently confused about who Lipstadt is referring to.
>Here, she is NOT referring to "challenges" from Holocaust deniers, but to
>challenges from historians and others who believe (wrongly, I think) that
>paying any attention to Holocaust deniers gives them undeserved attention.
>As to the contents of Lipstadt's book, Mr. Moran has repeatedly said he
>has never read it.  As a matter of fact, Lipstadt _does_ use documented
>evidence to address several main denier claims.
>
>[snip]
>
>> >  Had they been
>> >ignored from the outset, my book would also be superfluous.  But too many
>> >people, including naive students and talk show hosts, treat them as an
>> >other "point of view." So a comprehensive analysis of the deniers was
>> >necessary.
>> 
>> 	 Here she states again the motive and contents of her book, "a
>> comprehensive analysis of the deniers" instead of a comprehensive
>> analysis of denier arguments and presenting the awesome stuff she
>> claims.
>
>Once again, since Mr. Moran has not read Lipstadt's book, it's clear that
>he is unaware that she does, in fact, present a compelling analysis of the
>flaws in deniers' arguments.  She convincingly shows that they routinely
>lie, quote selectively, and engage in dishonest pseudo-scholarship. 
>
>[snip]
>
>[Marty Kelley:]
>> >Mr. Moran apparently does not understand the concept of attributing a
>> >statement to others in order to refute it.  
>> >
>> >Here's a scenario: Suppose Mr. Moran wrote "There are some who claim that
>> >the Holocaust happened, that millions of innocent people were wiped out
>> >by the Nazis," and then went on to argue that he didn't think that was
>> >the case.  Would Mr Moran consider it accurate if I then wrote, "Tom
>> >Moran admits that `Millions of innocent people were wiped out by the
>> >Nazis'"? That's precisely equivalent to what he's done to Lipstadt's text,
>> >although Mr. Moran seems wholly unable to recognize it.
>> 
>> 	Mr.Kelley should use this whole sequence as a lesson for his
>> class and see what they have to say. Maybe they could make a
>> connecting relevance to Mr. Kelley's 'parable' example above. 
>
>Excellent idea, Mr. Moran!  When the syllabus permits, I will give my
>students the 10/28/93 _NY Times article about Pressac's book, Dr.
>Lipstadt's 11/08/93 letter, and copies of our discussion.  I'll ask them
>to pass on their comments to this newsgroup.  In particular, we'll focus
>on your weird interpretation of the semicolon's function.
>
>Incidentally, I have been showing Lipstadt's letter to cseveral
>colleagues, both graduate students and professors, and asking them to
>summarize it. To avoid "bias," I have not told them about our
>discussion in a.r.  Not a single one of them has agreed with your
>interpretation of Lipstadt's comment about "the tears of the survivors."
>(That sample includes, by the way, a German graduate student studying
>second-language teaching.)
>
>> 	I would say Ms.Lipstadt is thoroughly corrupt. Whether she knows
>> it or not, that is another question. 
>> 
>> 	Her statement above, "They argue Pressac's book is superfluous;
>> the tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof" is, 'What they
>> say; what she says'.
>> 
>> 	I would rate Mr.Kelley in the same ranks as Ms.Lipstadt.
>
>I would be honored to be in the same ranks as Dr. Lipstadt!
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)   
>
>"The level of discourse in campaigns is so low, we really may 
>as well get in a tub of Jello and wrestle."
>   --Rep. Patricia Schroeder, on Comedy Central's "Politically Incorrect"
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:35 PDT 1996
Article: 66781 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:27:59 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   Alec Grynspan  writes:
>>  tom moran wrote:
>>  > 
>>  >    >         What is meant by the term "half Jewish"?
>>  
>>  Usually used by racists and idiots of all persuasions.
>>  
>>  >  >  
>>  >         What is the connotations of a Jew being automatically a Jew if
>>  > the mother is a Jew?
>>  
>rblackmore writes:
>
>One question for anyone:  How does the State of Israel define a Jew?  I
>once read a news item from a publication entitled "Jewish Currents".  It
>related the story of a Jewish woman who emigrated to Israel after the
>second world war.  After residing there for many years, the woman passed
>away and was buried in the Jewish cemetary.  Somehow, it came to the Rabbis
>attention that the deceased woman's mother wasn't Jewish, but her father was.
>This being the case, a group of Rabbis went to the cemetary and disinterred the
>ladies corpse, claiming she had no right to be buried there among Jews.  What
>do you suppose the reasoning is behind this?

	Racism.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:36 PDT 1996
Article: 66784 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:44:58 GMT
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ellegon@ibm.net (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <323ff76c.641853@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran writes:
>> 	Mr.Green, since I plan on making a point of something in the
>> future...
>
>That would be such a nice change.

	I realize the ignored child approach is the best, but I can't
help asking, This guy writes books?



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 07:41:37 PDT 1996
Article: 66787 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: USS Liberty: Interview with a Surviving Marine
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:04:09 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <51i8qm$rqs@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt
>Stele) wrote:
>
>[article snipped]
> 
>Mr. "Stele:"
> 
>Please find an appropriate group for this discussion. It is completely
>unrelated to Holocuats revisionism, since Israel did not exist during the
>Holocaust, did it?

	Don't worry Mr.Stele, your in the right group with this one. We
are seeing a lot of "relevance" wails, lately. Interesting.


>Sara
>
>
>By the way... did you receive permission from the authors to quote entire
>new articles?

	Okay. Now we have the above. Poor Ms.Shwartz. Now that she can't
get through the front door, she's trying the back door.
>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 13:55:11 PDT 1996
Article: 66847 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL  "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:55:28 GMT
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>	
>>                         [This is a repost]
>
>You misspelled "compost" again.
>
>>	Letter to the Editor,  L.A. Times,  Nov. 21, 1991
>
>Couldn't find anything any more recent than 1991? How about this:

	How about it? Match up what it says with the intial post. The
ACLU, with it's disproportionate number of Jews can say what they
like. What the ACLU member says and what the ADL does, are two
differnent things. 

>From Ann Beeson of the American Civil Liberties Union.
>
>http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/upjulyd.html
>
>|* Anti-Defamation League Issues Report on Web Hate Speech; Encourages
>|Debate, Not Censorship
>|
>|The mainstream media is once again focusing its attention on "hate
>|speech" on the Internet. The recent interest has been sparked by a new
>|report issued by the Anti-Defamation League. The report is entitled "The
>|Web Of Hate: Extremists Exploit The Internet", and the publication does a
>|fine and thorough job of exposing some of the darker recesses of the
>|Internet. The report offers examples of some of the ways right wing hate
>|groups are using the Internet to attempt to spread their racist,
>|anti-Semitic messages to the American public, and indeed the world.  The
>|ADL should be commended for their job, and for resisting the urge to
>|advocate censorship of the hateful spew. The ADL report is written in the
>|spirit of the old adage -- the best way to fight hate speech is with more
>|free speech. Earlier this year the ACLU criticized the Simon Wiesenthal
>|Center for waging a campaign pressuring Internet service providers to
>|censor the Web pages of right wing hate groups housed on their servers. 
>|(See "The Fourth Horseman of the Internet -- Hate Mongers -- Rears Its
>|Ugly Head Again,"  ACLU Cyber-Liberties Update, 1/10/96). Rather than
>|follow the dubious tactics of the Wiesenthal Center, the ADL report
>|rightfully concludes, "People of goodwill must continuously monitor the
>|Internet, especially the World Wide Web, to counter messages of hate with
>|information that challenges bigotry, exposes the bigots, and promotes
>|tolerance, decency and truth." 
>|
>|While the ADL may have been clear in not advocating censorship, some
>|major media have provided fuel for cyber-censors with one- sided stories
>|that fail to acknowledge the power of the online medium to expose and
>|humiliate hate groups. The ACLU encourages all who are concerned about
>|free speech on the Internet to send e-mail or snail mail to educate the
>|editors of newspapers who do not present both sides of the Internet "hate
>|speech"  debate.
>
>From the Washington Post.
>
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1996-07/15/031L-071596-idx.html
>
>|Does the First Amendment work?
>|  
>|I've always thought the notion at the core of the Founding Fathers'
>|vision of democracy is compelling: In the marketplace of ideas, good
>|ones sell and the bad ones go stale on the shelf.
>|  
>|But we all know that things don't always turn out that way. The worst
>|ideas don't always die; many persist. Sometimes, for a while at least,
>|they even prevail. As my wife said the other night, bursting my
>|idealistic bubble: "That Hitler guy must give you a twinge."
>|   
>|Lately, though, I've gotten a nice, big dose of hope from watching
>|hatemongers on the Net as they duke it out with the truth-squaders. In
>|any intellectual combat, those who can support their arguments with
>|facts are better armed. And guess what? The Internet gives us a new
>|kind of arsenal.
>[...]  
>|The story now is the occasional victories over hate on-line. On the
>|Usenet, the global conglomeration of discussion groups, the debate
>|over such topics is endless. There is scholarly debate over the exact
>|number of people killed in the Holocaust, but no serious historian
>|denies that it happened or that millions died.
>|  
>|Rich Graves, a Stanford University computer technician who fights
>|so-called Holocaust revisionists on-line, said he has seen in recent
>|months a gradual drop-off in the on-line areas where Nazi topics are
>|discussed, especially among the "foot soldiers" who are just looking
>|for something to believe in. "People are more pensive," Graves said,
>|adding that they might be thinking, "Maybe we are just a bunch of
>|stupid drunk skinheads who have no life."
>[...]  
>|The other crucial tool: the "Nizkor" project. Nizkor, directed by
>|Kenneth McVay, a Canadian retiree who has devoted his adult life to
>|fighting Holocaust deniers, is a massive effort to collect and refute
>|those theories. The name is a Hebrew word meaning "we will remember."
>[...]  
>|The Nizkor project brilliantly does what daily journalists don't
>|generally have the space or patience to do: Pick apart lies and
>|disinformation bit by bit. Its on-line storehouse of 3,857 files takes
>|up 180 megabytes -- a massive armamentarium for anyone who wants to
>|take on the purveyors of hate.
>|  
>|And it works. Mike Stein, a Washington area computer programmer
>|working with Nizkor, passed along with satisfaction an electronic mail
>|message he received in November that said, in part, "One thing your
>|arguments have done is to force me to take a more critical look at my
>|previously held beliefs, and I must confess that I have become
>|somewhat more agnostic about some of the central claims of the
>|Holocaust rather than continuing to reject them outright."
>[...]  
>|Jamie McCarthy, a Nizkor Webmaster, said committed Holocaust
>|revisionists follow a pattern on-line: "When it becomes clear they are
>|not dealing with a bunch of know-nothings, they lose interest and
>|leave." Take Friedrich Berg, who has published articles claiming that
>|the diesel engines used in some gas chambers could not have killed.
>|Informed Net citizens countered his arguments point by point. "After
>|four to five months of this, he didn't have much to say except to call
>|people ugly Jews," McCarthy said. Berg stopped posting.
>|   
>|The on-line guest book at Nizkor is an evolving testament to the power
>|of free speech. One visitor wrote:
>|
>|"As the child of survivors of the Holocaust I am particularly dismayed
>|when intelligent and reasonable people are influenced by revisionist
>|pap. I'm often frustrated to the point where I'd sooner tolerate
>|censorship than the promulgation of neo-Nazi lies. Your work restores
>|my faith in reasoned debate and the drive of honest people to find and
>|spread the truth."
>
>Thanks,
>
>-rich



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 13:55:12 PDT 1996
Article: 66851 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Unitied States sailors got what they deserved.
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:46:22 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <323c423e.10639521@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> I'd ask him myself, but I can't ever make out what he posts. Its
>> like being in a car at night, during a rainstorm, doing 60 miles an
>> hour, with no headlights and windshield wipers.
>
>Try pulling your head out of your anti-Semitic ass, Moran. You'll be
>suprised at the difference it makes.

	Thanks for the confirmation.

>Mar
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 14:10:52 PDT 1996
Article: 66861 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Mayer Gambit still won't fly
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:27:23 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:


	You can always count on Mr.McVay to come up with something absurd
and think it's good stuff for the Holocaust story.

>>>3.  As a "revisionist", I have quoted from the various sources:
>>>a.  Arno Mayer's "Why did the heavens not darken?"
>
>Ah! Glad you brought Mayer up - We shall assume that you thus
>consider him as a valid source of accurate Holocaust data, and
>carry on with these snippets from 
>http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/arno-mayer-1.html:

>Professor Mayer:
>
>   To date there is no certainty about who gave the order, and
>   when, to install the gas chambers used for the murder of Jews at
>   Auschwitz.  As no written command has been located, there is a
>   strong presumption that the order was issued and received
>   orally.  (Mayer, 363)

	That sounds pretty much like it is. The "... there is strong
presumption that the order was issued and received orally" being the
part any revisionists might not agree on.
	"strong presumption"? Interesting way of putting it. In no way
should it be taken to imply 'fact', or is it?
	
>[...]

>
>As the ADL tells us, Mayer's revisionism consists of the fact that
>he does not believe that the attempt was predetermined, but rather 
>a reaction to Nazi reversals during the Russian campaign.  Mayer's 
>reaction to the attention he has received by those he calls the 
>"rejectionists" is provided by the ADL:

	"ADL"? THE ADL? "Anti-Defamation League"? Anyway we recognize we
are not reading an actual ADL release, some contents are being
related. Is that you McVay? 

	"As the ADL tells us, Mayer's revisionism consists of the fact
that he does not believe that the attempt was predetermined, but
rather a reaction to Nazi reversals during the Russian campaign."

	Now there's a sentence.
	 
>   Mayer himself responded to this promotion of his work in the
>   October 15, 1989, issue of the _Asbury Park Press_, saying "the
>   rejectionists try to appropriate one or two sentences in a book
>   of 500 pages. And when you have friends like that, you don't
>   need any enemies. [They] poison the debate." (ADL, 48-49)

	"Debate"? What "debate"? We have to take note that the connection
between the ADL having literature on Holocaust revisionism exemplifies
the "Anti-Semitic", "Hate" connection that is claimed by the Jewish
community.
	Such venom, "They (the revisionist) poison the debate". Typical
ADL.


>Professor Mayer:
>
>   "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and
>   unreliable.  Even though Hitler and the Nazis made no secret of
>   their war on the Jews, the SS operatives dutifully eliminated
>   all traces of their murderous activities and instruments.  No
>   written orders for gassing have turned up thus far.  The SS not
>   only destroyed most camp records, which were in any case
>   incomplete, but also razed nearly all killing and cremating
>   installations well before the arrival of Soviet troops.
>   Likewise, care was taken to dispose of the bones and ashes of
>   the victims. 

	Actually, I don't know how "rare" any "sources" are for the gas
chambers, but I do know that anything I have seen, photos,
testimonies, Pressac or whatever, shows whatever does exist leans
heavily towards the "unreliable". 
	The second sentence tells us how the Germans destroyed most of
the records and that they were incomplete. Mayer tells us all the
records were destroyed and the installations were razed "well before
the arrival of Soviet troops. Photographs of Auschwitz taken on
Jan.14, 1945 show three cremas as still in existence just 4 days
before the Soviets over took the camp. Holocaust tales (evidence) of
Treblinka and Majdanek can have it that those two camps were over run
while still in operation.  

>   "Most of what is known is based on the deposition of Nazi
>   officials and executioners at postwar trials and on the memory
>   of survivors and bystanders.  This testimony must be screened
>   carefully, since it can be influenced by subjective factors of
>   great complexity.  Diaries are rare, and so are authentic
>   documents about the making, transmission, and implementation of
>   the extermination policy.  But additional evidence may still
>   come to light.  Private journals and official papers are likely
>   to surface.  Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the four
>   out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the
>   Soviet archives may well yield significant clues and evidence
>   when they are opened.  In addition, excavation at the killing
>   sites and in their immediate environs may also bring forth new
>   information.

	Here Mayer has found it necessary to admit that eyewitness
testimony is subject to suspicion. It would be very rare to see any
one admitting this prior to the rising onslaught of doubting
"revisionist" but he squeezes in an explanation, "... influenced by
subjective factors of great complexity". 
	I'd be a little concerned about, " Private journals and official
papers are likely to surface". As the revisionist situation
intensifies certain parties could get desperate to come up with
convenient documents. The problem here would be of course, the more
they come up with at this point in time, the more precarious getting
away with it, and if they recognize this problem then they would have
to produce one whopper of a document, causing it's own problems.
	As to any reference of more goodies being found in Soviet
records, as far as I know, the more they come up with from this source
the more stressed the story gets.
	

>   "In the meantime, there is no denying the many contradictions,
>   ambiguities, and errors in the existing sources.  These cannot
>   be ignored, *ALTHOUGH IT MUST BE EMPHASIZED STRONGLY THAT SUCH
>   DEFECTS ARE ALTOGETHER INSUFFICIENT TO PUT IN QUESTION THE USE
>   OF GAS CHAMBERS IN THE MASS MURDER OF JEWS AT AUSCHWITZ*.
>   [emphasis ours]  Much the same is true for the conflicting
>   estimates and extrapolations of the number of victims, since
>   there are no reliable statistics to work with.  *JUST AS THE
>   FACT OF THE JEWISH ORDEAL AT AUSCHWITZ IS NOT CONTINGENT ON THE 
>   USE OF GAS CHAMBERS, SO THE CRIME OF GASSING DOES NOT TURN UPON
>   THE EXACT NUMBER OF JEWS GASSED*." (Mayer, 362-363) [emphasis
>   again ours]

	Anyone seriously interested in investigating the validity of the
Holocaust story should take special note of this paragraph. It is
tantamount to saying, 'Even if there is much discrepancy with gas
chamber evidence it should not be doubted that Jews were
exterminated', and combined with the next sentence emphasized, it is
like saying, even if it could be shown there were no gas chambers the
Jewish ordeal (sans anyone else) was just as serious.

	Who exactly the notation "emphasis ours" refers to, is up for
grabs. Someone(s) at Nizkor. Stressing something with capitalizations
is really in bad taste, and does absolutely nothing to effect the
legitimacy of anything. 

>Thank you for mentioning Arno Mayer. I assume you accept what
>he has written above as correct, and, when you cited him, you
>cited him in context, as I have done, right?

	Poor Mr.McVay. If he thinks this putting something in "context"
makes any difference, he must be mentally blind. The only thing that
happens when McVay or anyone else tries to undo an analysis of an
extract, by introducing a bigger extract, is to present and create
more problems for the story.  

	That's the way it is with Holocaust evidence, or commentary on
evidence, the more the merrier.

	Thank you Mr.McVay. 

>Sure you did.
>
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 15:30:38 PDT 1996
Article: 66867 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is a "goyim"
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 03:28:09 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>"Sis, could you leave the John alone for a minute and help Moron?"
>
>   "Daughter will be right back, Daddy; Daughter love your big bananas."
>   "What is it, Moron?"
>
>"Moron say a not-Jews is not-Jew, and everyone calling Moron an idiot!"
>
>   "Daddy! Cut that out! Daughter SAID daughter would be right
>   back, so wait your turn like the rest of the guys!"
>
>   "Moron, darling, try to listen carefully. Use both ear."
>
>"Moron not have both ear, Moron have both ears. Moron not a Moron, we know."
>
>   "Daughter back, Daddy! Morons both Golems..."

	I give you maybe 2 to 3 months McVay. Then it's off to the 
coo coo's nest. You know, the funny farm. Nurse Ratchet's going to
love you.
	This is what happens when a goyim does the Jews bidding.
Spiritual and mental collapse. It was all bound to catch up on you
McVay. 

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 16:08:36 PDT 1996
Article: 66883 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 99% of the story, 99% wacked out
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:12:29 GMT
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	As becomes evident on studying the validity of the Holocaust
story, 99% of it is told by eyewitness testimony.

	When reviewing eyewitness accounts, it becomes evident that 99%
of these testimonies are wacked out. 

	Posted here are a few comments released by Ingrid Rimland.
Stuff in ( ) is Moran's commentary. 	
                       ==================
	
*       Rudolf Vrba, an extremely important eyewitness to the
Holocaust Lobby, wrote "I Cannot Forgive", a book which stated in the
foreword that it was "meticulous" and written with a "fanatical
respect for accuracy"
(p.2).

Under cross-examination, however, by defense lawyer Doug Christie in
the Zundel case in 1985, Vrba back pedaled in panic and admitted that
the book was merely an "artistic expression" which belonged to the
"realm of a literary afternoon."

	(This is what happens when the Jews are confronted with cross
examination. Vrba's first impulse was probably to jump up and scream
"anti-Semitism" but then this would have been an awkward time to try
that.)


*       Kurt Gerstein, heavily relied upon by Holocaust historian Raul
Hilberg as a "witness" to the Holocaust, was admitted by Hilberg to
have been a person who had spoken "pure nonsense."  ("Experts'
admission:  Some gas death 'facts' nonsense" Toronto Sun, January 17,
1985)

	(This is what happens when Jews are confronted with their stuff.)


*       Fillip Muller, another important witness to shore up the gas
chamber claim, wrote in his book "Eyewitness Auschwitz" that muscles
of those who had been shot were cut from their legs by the Germans and
thrown into a bucket.  He claimed the muscles "were still working and
contracting, making the bucket jump about."

	(Sort of reminds me of testimony that Jews were taken on short
train rides from Belzec, where the cars had Quicklime spread out on
the floors. "The train" with it's "quivering cargo of flesh seemed to
throb, vibrate, rock and jump as if bewitched". "The train began to
move and sob, wail and howl".)


*       Arnold Friedman, another prosecution witness in the 1985
Zündel trial, testified that he could tell different nationalities
being burned in the concentration crematories.  "Skinny Polish Jews"
as opposed to "fat Hungarian Jews", claimed Friedman, gave off
different-colored flames, shooting 14 feet high out of the chimney.
(Zündel trial transcript 1985, pages 406-407)  It mattered little to
this man that flames do NOT shoot out of crematory chimneys, according
to court testimony.

	(Present day opinions have it that Physics undergoes the same
principles every where in the universe. The problem with present day
physicists is they don't know about Holocaust physics.) 


*       Dr. Henry Heller was "saved" at Auschwitz when a former
colleague, a German, recognized him as he was being led to the gas
chambers and "mercifully turned on the water instead of the gas."
(Chicago Tribune, May 4, 1975)

	(Is this the only evidence for a one man gas chamber, or did the
whole bunch get away? What happened? Did they turn off the water, let
him out, then closed the door and did it right? What the German
"former colleague" opened the door after they turned off the water,
yelled in and said, 'Hey Joe, come on, get out of there'? What, as Joe
was coming out, the German former colleague turned around and said to
the others, 'It's okay, he's a friend of mine'? Where was the water
coming in? Was it -- shower heads? And one more little question, the
former colleague of the former colleague said the former colleague
turned on the water instead of the gas. But isn't this supposed to
have been at Auschwitz, where they poured the gas in through holes in
the roof or little windows on the sides?


*       Rudolf Kauer, a former inmate of Auschwitz, admitted he lied
when he accused former Auschwitz personnel of beating a Polish girl on
her breasts with a bullwhip, ripping one breast off.  "I lied," he
said.  "That was just a yarn going about in the camp.  I never saw
it."  (Miami Herald, July 7, 1964)

	(No problem here. What with the million dollars just given to
Steven Spielberg for interviewing the 50,000 remaining "survivors"
this one little lie will just be a speck among the 50,000 un admitted
lies coming up.)

*       Prof. Michael de Bouard said this:  "The record is rotten to
the core.  On one hand a considerable amount of fantasies,
inaccuracies, obstinately repeated (in particular concerning numbers)
heterogeneous mixtures, generalizations, and on the other hand, very
dry critical studies {by Revisionists} that demonstrate the inanity of
those exaggerations."
(quest-France, August 1986)
	

*       From Samuel Gringauz, whose style is a bit overwrought, we
have the following:  "The hyper historical complex {of survivors} may
be described as judeocentric, logocentric and egocentric. . .  This is
the reason why most of the memoirs and reports are full of
preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects,
overestimated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be
lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks, and apologies."
(Jewish Social Studies, January 1950).

*       Yad Vashem director Krakowski, by contrast, speaks plainly.
He says that many survivors, wanting to be part of history, may have
let their imagination run away with them.

According to an August 1986 article in the Jerusalem Post:   "Many
were never in the places where they claim to have witnessed
atrocities, while others relied on second-hand information given them
by friends or passing strangers" according to Krakowski.  Over half of
20,000 survivor accounts were found by Yad Vashem to be "unreliable"
and "inaccurate."	

Have you heard of "Brentar's Dog", whose name was entered as a
"victim"?

	(It's certainly seems objective for the Yad Vashim Center to
admit that over half of the 20,000 survivor accounts are "unreliable"
and "inaccurate", but then this would imply that the other half is
accurate and reliable. Tricky. I wonder if "Bentar's Dog" is listed
among the 3,000,000 names of those exterminated and 'compiled' by the
Yad Vashim Center?
	I also wonder how the Vad Yashim Center only has 20,000 "survivor
accounts", taken over the 50 year period we should presume, and here
and now there are still 50,000 more, which we're paying Spielberg a
million dollars to interview.)

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 18:45:04 PDT 1996
Article: 66895 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: holohugging traitors
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:20:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <324012ea.559740@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <51caqf$rme@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <51emce$1v0@Vir.com> <323c2c9f.5104949@news.pacificnet.net> <323CB4D4.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu>
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Brian Harmon  wrote:

>tom moran wrote:
> 
>>         Giwer:
>> >>      "This include Joel Rosenblum as a traitor to the US."
>> 
>>         Ridiculous, Rosenberg is not an American, he is Jewish, therefore
>> he could not be a "traitor". He is only doing what comes natural,
>> supporting anything Jewish.
>
>Bwhahahah! This is a true gem, tommy.
>
>"... Rosenberg is not an American, he is Jewish."
>
>Tsyeah right.  And you lunkheads wonder why we call
>you anti-semitic?

	I don't "wonder" why you ("we") call me "anti-Semite".
It's because you can't come up with anything else.

>Brian Harmon 
>==========================
>brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 18:45:05 PDT 1996
Article: 66908 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Whole Diplomatic World Knows
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:18:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <3241480d.205419@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323ee5cf.387276@news.pacificnet.net>  <323ffa9f.1461169@news.pacificnet.net> <324068a7.1037608553@news.zilker.net>
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mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <323ee5cf.387276@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>>>moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>>                                 
>>>> The whole diplomatic world knows why the United States is the
>>>> only nation confronting Israel's enemy, Iraq.... Of course there 
>>>> is the other battle cry, "Holocaust", "Holocaust", "Holocaust". 

>>>Moran, Try "Oil, Oil, OIl." 

>>>What a simpering idiot....

>>	Really? "Oil, oil, oil" he say's? He say's the U.S. gets oil from
>>Iraq? Then it's not rights for the Kurds, he say's? He say's Europe
>>doesn't use oil, and that is why they don't want to get involved?

Mr. Curtis, popping in for a say:
>They don't want to get involved because they know that we will. You
>aren't exactly a deep thinker, are you?

	There's an angle.

	You mean they are letting us do their dirty work for them?
Interesting? But from I can make out, they are against the U.S,
action, even so much as condemning it.

	And then we have to consider where your angle fits in with those
countries like Saudi Arabia, and almost Kuwait itself, not wanting us
to use their lands for staging areas. What's their reason?

	And then there's Russia and China, two condemners, each having
their own oil. What's the story there?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 18:45:05 PDT 1996
Article: 66909 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Whole Diplomatic World Knows
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 13:19:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 85
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <324068a7.1037608553@news.zilker.net>, mike@aimetering.com
>(Mike Curtis) wrote:
>
>> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>> >mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> >
>> >>In article <323ee5cf.387276@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>> >>moran) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>                                 
>> >>> The whole diplomatic world knows why the United States is the
>> >>> only nation confronting Israel's enemy, Iraq.... Of course there 
>> >>> is the other battle cry, "Holocaust", "Holocaust", "Holocaust". 
>> >>
>> >>Moran, Try "Oil, Oil, OIl." 
>> >>
>> >>What a simpering idiot....
>> >
>> >Really? "Oil, oil, oil" he say's? He say's the U.S. gets oil from
>> >Iraq? 
>
>No, O' Illiterate One. Try turning the map right side up. Now run your
>finger south a little bit. See the country marked "Saudi Arabia?" That's
>where the U.S. gets most of it's imported oil. 
>
>> >...Then it's not rights for the Kurds, he say's? 
>
>Uh, O' Duplicitous One, when did I ever say anything abut the Kurds? I
>didn't. Would _you_ like to make a (substantive) comment regarding the
>Kurds? If so, may I direct you to:
>
>soc.culture.kurdish
>soc.culture.iraq
>soc.culture.iranian
>soc.culture.turkish

	Well gee. Some references. WOW.  Well the only thing I can say at
this time is, going by the U.S. papers I read, sometimes the Kurds are
good, sometimes they are evil. It all depends on their association
with any of Israel's enemies.
	This latest thing started with one Kurdish faction calling on
Iraq to come to their aid against another Kurdish faction. Now this
certainly puts a twist into the previous Kurd/yes/no/Israel/American
Mideast policy equation. 
	The Clinton action had nothing to do with the Kurds. The Kurds
are nothing but pawns in the whole game. A moral cause feigned for
other reasons.

>> > He say's Europe doesn't use oil, and that is why they don't want 
>> > to get involved?
>
>The only European nation to have been significantly involved in the MIddle
>East since 1956 was Great Britain. European influence in the Middle East
>has been eclipsed by the United States for some time now.... 

	Interesting tangent from the "oil" topic. "Influence"? The time
is occuring now that the will of the people in the Mideast is being
strongly exerted on their governments and it's not good for the U.S.
	Even, and maybe even more so, in Saudi Arabia.	

>> They don't want to get involved because they know that we will. You
>> aren't exactly a deep thinker, are you?

>No, Mr. Curtis, I'm afraid he's not. 

	Poor Mr.Van Alstine. He just doesn't have enough faith in his
stuff to resist signing off to Mr.Curtis.

>Mark

	

>posted/e-mailed.
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 19:07:35 PDT 1996
Article: 66925 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The USS Liberty attack, no accident
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:07:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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ellegon@ibm.net (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <3241CAA6.3C67@halcyon.com> jim  writes:
>
>>Daniel Keren wrote:
>
>>> The point, which you apparently managed to overlook, is that
>>> the ship was not supposed to be there; however, a "most
>>> incredible failure of communications", to quote the report,
>>> resulted in the loss of the messages ordering it to move
>>> away from the war zone.
>>> 
>>> The attack was an error; if there was any "cover-up", it was
>>> a cover-up of the fact that this "most incredible failure",
>>> of the American Armed Forces, resulted in the ship being sent
>>> to the midst of a war.
>
>>No objective person who has ever studied this attack believes that it
>>was an accident.  That includes Secretary of State Dean Rusk, JCS
>>Chairman Admiral Tom Moorer, and a score of other senior US Government
>>officials who are all on public record calling it a deliberate attack.
>
>>What they lacked was not knowledge that it was deliberate, but the
>>resolve to taken the inevitable political abuse they would have gotten
>>if they had demanded the proper public investigation.
>
>>Anyone who doubts the fact that this attack was deliberate should visit
>>our award winning web site at http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/ 
>>.
>
>I've visited your site, several times, and noted the curiousities about it, 
>here and elsewhere.  I know you find it painful to discuss, but your theory of 
>the events seems to leave more than a little to be desired, and simply 
>repeating, over and over, the names of folks who have said nice things about 
>you perhaps won't clear that up.

	Mr.Ennes, the statement above speaks for itself. To respond would
be to draw attention away from it as it stands. He has stated nothing
but his personal conclusions determined by an ethnocentrically insane
mentality instilled from an early age. 

	If it was any other nation but Israel, he wouldn't be here at
all. If it was some Arab country, he'd be all 'Yes, yes, Aye Aye, Here
here, you bet'.
                                                Tom Moran

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 19 20:26:31 PDT 1996
Article: 66939 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:52:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <519gg1$7s2@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 13:00:19 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>	In the Holocaust book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" we
>>>are given a photo with the caption: "Arrival and selection of
>>>Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, 1944. Credit: Yad Vashim, Jeruselem".
>>
>>	The "credit" should go to the photographer or his employer.  In this
>>case the credit goes to Yad Vashim for the creative caption.  Of
>>course it begs the questions, how do you know they are Jews? how do
>>you know they are Hungarian? and how do you know what is going on?  
>
>    This one is easy.  Photos from "The Auschwitz Album" were found by a
>Hungarian Jewish survivor who came in on that train and recognized a
>number of people from her village.  As for how one knows that people in
>such pictures are Jews, I guess Mr. Giwer's steel-sieve memory has
>conveniently forgotten the fact that the Nazis required Jews to wear a
>Jewish star on their clothes identifying them as such.

	I like the Holocaust evidence from accounts written and stuffed
in bottles and found at Birkenau. But even those are so
miscombobulated they are border line Larry, Moe and Curley.


>    Confessed liar Matt Giwer never did bother to look at the pictures in
>the book before coming out with howlers such as that the people were
>probably heading for the stairs down from the train platform.  (The
>platform is ground level, as he would have known had he looked.)  He also
>maintained that people told by men with guns to walk along a road with
>barbed wire on both sides might decide to go off in any random direction
>instead, perhaps even straight through the barbed wire.
>
>    But what else would one expect from a person who is not only a proven
>liar, but even a self-confessed one?
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html
>
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 01:16:09 PDT 1996
Article: 66945 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust tyranny
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:53:10 GMT
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	Or, Disagreeable Words for the ADL, Simon Wiesenthal and Co.
                 ==============================

	
	"Liberty of speech, inviteth and provoketh liberty to be used
again, and so bringeth much to a man's knowledge."
                                            Francis Bacon

	"The most beautiful thing in the world is freedom of speech."
                                            Diogenes

	"To speaketh his thoughts is every freeman's right, in peace and
war, in council and in fight."
                                            Homer

	"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
your right to say it."
                                            Voltaire


	Freedom of Speech is the enemy of the totalitarian Holocaust lie.
                                            Moran


                                             


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 01:16:10 PDT 1996
Article: 66970 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:48:08 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Uh... very, Matt.  I was just going to mention that, in fact.
I've also been wondering why nobody has mentioned those purple
unicorns on the roof...

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 01:16:11 PDT 1996
Article: 66983 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:52:16 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <323ff6d5.491578@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Perhaps Mr. Moran can explain the process by which Prussian blue is
>> >formed.  Unfortunately, his hero Rudolf failed to do so.
>> 
>>         CN compound combines with iron. Now what?
>
>Translated: No, Moran cannot.
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Mr. Moran displays his ignorance of solution equilibria for the world to
>> >see.  Is Rudolf's knowlege of chemistry as poor as Mr. Moran's?
>> 
>>         Non-respondable.
>
>Translated: Moran pleads "nolo contendere."
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Mr. Moran wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>      Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
>> >>relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
>> >>capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
>> >>be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
>> >>constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
>> >>processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.
>> >
>> >I responded:
>> >
>> >Mr. Moran has posted this claim before yet he never informed us of how
>> >many cherry trees were growing at Birkenau and why the pits only ended
>> >up in places where cyanide was known to have been used.
>> 
>> Did the statement anywhere imply any CN compounds found at any
>> site originated from cherry pits, or is this the way you put it?
>
>Translation: Moran was being disingenous. First, he states that "cyanide
>compounds are found naturally...and are in fact even produced by organic
>processes..." One such "process" Moran then leads us to is cherry trees,
>in which he claims "fair amounts [of cyanides] are found in cherry pits."
>Now he implicitly denies any connection between his statement and its
>implications from the context it was made in.
>
>If Moran is _not_ claiming that the cyanides found come from "cherry
>pits," (i.e. "organic processes") why then allude to cherry pits as a
>source of cyanides when discusing the presence cyanides at Auschwitz?  
>
>To obfuscate the issue of the presence of cyanides at Auschwitz, of course. 

	There's some convenient 'logic'. Of course you could have taken
it as written to show that HCN > CN can be found in natural
circumstances, and thus adding to other sources for CN compounds found
anywhere, including Birkenau. Oleander shrubs, tulip bulbs and other
organic sources for HCN > CN that can find there way into the
atmosphere for distribution to other parts of the world. Coke
production plants, traces from burning of coke still containing
residual HCN and even from the large amounts of Zyklon B really used
at the camp for fumigation purposes as sources for the teeny, weeny,
little, micro gram traces found at any Cremas of Birkenau.  


>> As far as any CN compounds "end(ing) up in places where cyanide
>> was known to have been used", the facts are they found it pretty much
>> wherever they checked, outside of any barracks that are protected from
>> the 100 feet of acid rain that is said to have fallen on the area by
>> the time the test were done. 
>
>Moran is flapping his gums here. Cyanides were indeed found in the places
>where it was used _repeatedly_. Cyanides were _not_ found in the barracks,
>where it is thought that they were only fumigated _once_ during the 1942
>typhus epidemic. Moran's apparant explination that the barracks were
>"protected from the 100 feet of acid rain" is nonsensical. Other test
>sites were equally "protected" and yet show the presense of cyanides. See:
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/
>
>> Further, there were readings from places that were "known" to
>> have used CN, like fumigation chambers, that showed 0 readings. Not
>> explained in the report. In fact they inferred nothing from any of the
>> test in their "Final Remarks".
>
>More obfuscation by Moran. Four "0 readings" did indeed occur in the
>disinfestation facilities of Block No.3 and the bath-house of Camp B1-A.
>However, in the _very same_ facilities 38 "readings" showed the presence
>of cyanides. Furthermore, two of the "0 readings" occured at bath-house of
>Camp B1-A and were taken, as indicated in the notes to Table IV, from
>"mortar taken from the outer side of the building wall." See: 
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/table-four.html
>
>> >Mr. Moran wrote:
>> >
>> >>Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
>> >>Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
>> >>Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
>> >>natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
>> >>elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
>> >>compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.
>> >Why were they not present in the barracks?
>> 
>> As the record of this topic shows in other posts, between us,
>> they were protected from the weather elements, above ground, not prone
>> to any precipitation of elements, that would have originated from the
>> chemical compositions in the soil and 100 feet of acid rain.
>
>And Moran's evidence that the cyanides detected in the samples "originated
>from the chemical compositions in the soil and 100 feet of acid rain" is? 
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Mr. Moran's ignorance of simple acid-base chemistry is noted.
>> 
>>         Non-responable.
>
>Translated: Moran pleads "nolo contendere."
>
>> >[My note now: Who does Mr. Moran think he is convincing?  Any Junior
>> >High student can tell you that there is an equilibrium in solution:
>> >
>> >MCN + H2O <=> HCN + MOH, where M is generally some metal.]
>> 
>>         And?
>
>Translation: Duh, I dunno.... 
>
>[snip]
>
>> >Mr. Moran's evidence that these places were damper than the barracks
>> >is...
>> 
>> "Common sense"... 
>
>Translation: Moran is relying on hearsay and unsupported speculation. 
>
>> ...The "places" you are talking about are the
>> (subterranean cellars). Now you tell readers the barracks above
>> ground, with roofs, are equally or more so prone to dampness than the
>> cellars.
>
>"...More than one thousand prisoners were herded into brick barracks built
>for four hundred. They slept in three-tiered bunks, half a dozen men to a
>bunk, often with no matresses or blankets. There was little heat and less
>ventilation. The place stank. The prisoners' only consolation was that
>Birkenau was even worse. Instead of overcrowded brick barracks, there were
>overcrowded wooden huts, with leaking roofs and dirt floors that turned to
>mud...." (Friederich, _The Kindom of Auschwitz_, p.36-37.)
>
>"...I was in the third barracks, standing in the middle of the room. Again
>I had the overseer called and asked her to have my wife and daughter sent
>for....They brought me up to date on their sad experiances of the previous
>three months...Dressed in rags, they suffered from cold and perpetual
>hunger. It rained in their barracks and their clothes never dried out
>copmpletely..." (Nyiszli,_Auschwitz_, p.143.) 
>
>"I'm trying [circa 1980] to locate Camp BI. It all looks so alien. With so
>many of the huts pulled down or fallen down, I can't get my bearings. Some
>of the stone huts are still intact, but the wooden ones have
>disintegrated, leaving an odd pattern of little brick chimneys and heating
>channels jutting up all over the place...." (Hart, _Return to Auschwitz_,
>p.164.) 
>
>What was that Moran was squaking about "equally or more so prone to
>dampness than the cellars?" 
>
>[snip]
>
>> >The Crakow report is not proof in and of itself, but it is corroborating
>> >evidence.  When all the best evidence leads to the same conclusion it is
>> >not unreasonable to suggest that that conclusion is the best explanation
>> >of the facts.
>> 
>> Well I'll leave this one up 'for grabs', unless you want to
>> expand on the "best evidence"/"same conclusion" hypothesis.
>
>Translated: Moran is too scared to touch this one with a ten-foot pole. 
>
>> >[When can we expect a substantive response from Mr. Moran?]
>> 
>> I hope you don't forget to show where I said the CN compounds
>> found in the test originated from cherry pits, so it doesn't look like
>> you were trying to pull a fast one.
>
>Well, I hope that Moran doesn't try and "pull a fast one" by failing to
>demomstrate where the cyanides came from and how they formed where they
>did. So far all he has offered is some specious handwaving about how
>"cyanide compounds are found naturally," are "produced by organic
>processes," and are "found in cherry pits." He also disingenously blathers
>about how "CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other elements and
>molecules and thus come under the heading 'cyanide compound' or 'group'
>with a full array of variations."
>
>Moran's profound demonstration of pedant vacuity is something to behold indeed.
>
>> I would still be interested in hearing your argument that any
>> "barracks" are good choices for, or even qualify as a place from which
>> to take "background" levels.
>
>And I'm sure that Mr. Green, as well as others, are most interested in
>Moran's explination of the precise chemical process by which the cyanide
>compounds detected in samples taken at Auschwitz formed. 
>
>> Try to make it good. This is our last go-around with this. The
>> next time I just repost all the exchanges.
>
>Translation: Waaah! Mommy! Rich Greene is picking on me again!
>
>Tsk, tsk. Such a baby.... 
>
>Mark

	Poor Mr.VanAlstine, he does the best he can. But not even he has
faith in his own stuff. This is exemplified in his little acid
interjected remarks. Down by the school yard stuff.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 09:44:53 PDT 1996
Article: 67012 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:22:24 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Future inclusion for "All mouth - No substance".

	Under "Opinions on Nuremberg" Mr.Abels claimed there are "tons
and tons" of, specifically, "unambiguous" evidence for the Holocaust
tale.

Mr.Abels:

Ah, I can guess what you are up to: the Holocaust hasn't taken place
because the Nuremberg trial was the justice of victors. When will you
finally get it into your thick head that the files of the Nuremberg
trials are _NOT_ the primary source material for the history of
Holocaust. Tons and tons of completely unambiguous material has been
produced in the time between 33 and 45. You and the other
"revisionists" don't know it. That's all, but it's not an
excuse.

Idiot.

Nele
---

Moran:
	Now that you are admitting that the first material, that which
was used at Nuremberg is "ambiguous" maybe you can introduce your
other evidence, the "tons and tons of unamgiguous material".

	Go for it. Just show a few pounds of the "tons and tons". 
---

Mr. Abels:
No, not at all. Learn to read. Learn to think. Then write. I have made
a statement about the main sources used for the
Holocaust-historiography. I have made no statement about the value of
the documents of the Nuremberg trials. The implication is yours, not
mine. (What a bunch of pea-brains)

> maybe you can introduce your other
>evidence, the "tons and tons of unamgiguous material".
>	Go for it. Just show a few pounds of the "tons and tons".

You won't expect me type in the annotations of nearly every research
paper on aspects of the Holocaust. Go to the library and look for
yourself.

Nele
---


Moran:
	You did specify "unambiguous". You did say "tons and tons". And I
ask for just a few pounds. How about a couple of ounces? "Unambiguous"
that is.
=========================================================================

	Anyway, Mr.Abels never came back with anything further. Three or
four 'Rodeo clowns' jumped in to save the stumbling Mr.Abels from the
bull. Whatever they had to say is still there, in the thread.

	And all I ask for was a "few ounces" of the "tons and tons".



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 09:44:54 PDT 1996
Article: 67015 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The USS Liberty attack, no accident
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:47:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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jim  wrote:

>Daniel Keren wrote:
>
>> The point, which you apparently managed to overlook, is that
>> the ship was not supposed to be there; however, a "most
>> incredible failure of communications", to quote the report,
>> resulted in the loss of the messages ordering it to move
>> away from the war zone.
>> 
>> The attack was an error; if there was any "cover-up", it was
>> a cover-up of the fact that this "most incredible failure",
>> of the American Armed Forces, resulted in the ship being sent
>> to the midst of a war.
>
>No objective person who has ever studied this attack believes that it
>was an accident.  That includes Secretary of State Dean Rusk, JCS
>Chairman Admiral Tom Moorer, and a score of other senior US Government
>officials who are all on public record calling it a deliberate attack.
>
>What they lacked was not knowledge that it was deliberate, but the
>resolve to taken the inevitable political abuse they would have gotten
>if they had demanded the proper public investigation.
>
>Anyone who doubts the fact that this attack was deliberate should visit
>our award winning web site at http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/ 
>.
>
>Jim Ennes
>Liberty survivor

	Tom Moran takes the opportunity to personally salute Mr.Ennes.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 09:44:55 PDT 1996
Article: 67017 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The strain on the furnaces was colossal'
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:47:58 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>
>Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
>Germany, March 5, 1946
>[Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming
>from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993]
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Q. Who apart from you participated in the construction of the furnaces?
> 
>A. From 1941-2, I constructed the furnaces. The technical drawings were
>   done by Mr. Keller. The ventilation systems of the "Kremas" 
>   [crematoriums] were constructed by senior engineer Karl Schultze.
> 
>Q. How often and with what aim did you visit Auschwitz?
> 
>A. Five times. The first time at the beginning of 1943, to receive orders
>   of the SS Command where the Kremas were to be built. The second time in
>   spring 1943 to inspect the building site. The third time was in autumn
>   1943 to inspect a fault in the construction of a Krema chimney. The
>   forth time at the beginning of 1944, to inspect the repaired chimney. the
>   fifth time in September-October 1944, when I visited Auschwitz with the
>   intended relocation [from Auschwitz] of the crematoriums, since the
>   front was getting nearer. The crematoriums were not relocated, because 
>   there were not enough workers.

	Now heres a guy who was at the camp numerous times in the direct
function of installing Kremas who we should presume to be one of the
"Ordinary Germans" and "willing executioners, who we should expect to
know quite a bit about the crematoriums. A first hand, expert witness
so to speak. One might think the inquiring body would be keen on
getting a detailed picture.

 
>Q. Were you the sole Topf engineer in Auschwitz in spring 1943?
> 
>A. No, [senior engineer Karl] Schultze was with me in Auschwitz at the time.
>   I saw personally about 60 corpses of women and men of different ages,
>   which were being prepared for incineration.  That was at 10 in the 
>   morning. I witnessed the incineration of six corpses and and came to the
>   conclusion that the furnaces were working well.

	Now here the witness says he saw about 60 bodies that were being
"prepared for incineration".  What was this? Teeth being pulled out?
Stomachs being opened up in search of swallowed valuables?
	Observing 60 bodies would not be consistant with the story that
has it that hundreds or even thousands should be around. 
	He witnessed the incineration of six bodies. Was this one body
per oven chamber, or was it two or three in one? One wonders if they
didn't have some discussion on capacities and the efficiency ratio
between burning one body at a time or two or three at a time in one
unit. None of the inquiring body cared to ask for any further details.

 
>Q. Did you see a gas chamber next to the crematoriums?
> 
>A. Yes, I did see one next to the crematorium. Between the gas chamber and
>   the crematorium there was a connecting structure.

	He was there in the direct capacity of the crematoriums, five
times, during the peak extermination years and all he can attest to is
"Yes, I did see one ...".
 
>Q. Did you know that in the gas chamber and in the crematoriums there took
>   place the liquidation of innocent human beings?
> 
>A. I have known since spring 1943 that innocent human beings were being
>   liquidated in Auschwitz gas chambers and that their corpses were 
>   subsequently incinerated in the crematoriums.

	
	This is very consistant with other testimonies given. The witness
says something startling and the inquirerer just goes on to ask about
another subject instead of trying to get a thorough picture of what
went on, what did the place look like, how did the operation work.

	One might expect at least something like:

Q. You say you knew since the spring of 1943? Could you tell us how
you knew and what you knew?

Q. Could you tell us what numbers of people were being exterminated?

Q. Did you ever witness a gassing?

Q. How many bodies could the ovens handle?

Q. Did you ever have any discussion on their capacities?

Q. Do you know anything about the chain of command as to your orders?

	Now these are very basic questions which one would think should
have been pressed. Of course many replys illicit more questions and
the details would pour forth. Even for the sake of simple curiosity
one would expect further questions from the listening parties.

	Instead,    
 
>Q. Who is the designer of the ventilation systems for the gas chambers?
> 
>A. Schultze was the designer of the ventilation systems in the gas chambers;
>   and he installed them.
> 
>Q. Why was the brick lining of the muffles so quickly damaged?
> 
>A. The bricks were damaged after six months because the strain on the
>   furnaces was colossal.

	Typhus.

>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 09:44:55 PDT 1996
Article: 67031 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: suddenly there is physical evidence
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:48:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <3241e9ce.4251689@news.pacificnet.net>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>	After it was clearly and forcefully pointed out there is no physical evidence of
>gassing and after the response regarding conflicting witness reports about
>Dresden were discounted we found two other responses.
>	
>	One is the claim that it exists only one CD and can only be presented by mail
>and can not be posted in public on alt.revisionism.  The person making this
>claim is not only clearly lying he has admitted to membership in an organization
>of Jewish murderers very like the IDF.  Who would believe a murderer?
>
>	The other claim has become more common, to simply assert that it exists but
>refuse to post it.  This is being done despite the full and complete knowledge
>that there are exactly three questionable documents that would constitute
>physical evidence.  
>
>	The lack of physical evidence is clearly a very, very sore point for the
>holohuggers.  
>
>	And of course the holohuggers will continue to refuse to post it while doing all
>of the above.

	But Giwer, it is physical evidence. The 'mind' is a physical
entity.

	Post the particulars under "All Mouth - No substance". That's the
official alt.revisionism repository for outlandish claims made and
nothing given.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 09:44:56 PDT 1996
Article: 67059 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:48:52 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <3241e9ee.4283765@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32317319.1073014@news.pacificnet.net> <323d5938.1190499@news.pacificnet.net> <51k2vk$8hk@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <323ff76c.641853@news.pacificnet.net> <51s13e$eqd@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <323ff76c.641853@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	Mr.Green, since I plan on making a point of something in the
>>future, I would like to ask you a question.
>>
>>	I notice you are at least a chemistry major at Sanford. I also
>>notice you have great interest in this Cracow Report, being for the
>>most part the only one that defends it.
>
>I am a graduate student at Stanford and expect to earn my PhD. in the
>near future.
>
>>	What I would like to know is, did you have anything to do with
>>preparing this document for Nizkor? 
>
>Nothing whatsoever.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>

	Okay. Thanks.


>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"Remember the days of yore,
>"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>       -Deuteronomy 32:7



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 11:43:30 PDT 1996
Article: 153838 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3241eb61.4654783@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <3241eb61.4654783@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:06:27 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 11:43:33 PDT 1996
Article: 153856 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!bcarh189.bnr.ca!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <3240bd67.44204134@news.pacificnet.net>
Control: cancel <3240bd67.44204134@news.pacificnet.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:11:06 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 13:59:55 PDT 1996
Article: 67123 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fatbroad T-shirt
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:25:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <323ff81d.818876@news.pacificnet.net>
References:   <517ogk$bqg@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <51eqj5$4cj2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <51f1uh$4i6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Gordon McFee asks:
>
>"How can one understand the FBTS when no one is allowed to see it?  
>Just see if you get a DTTS."
>
>The FBTS may be seen, worn by Fatbroad herself, on her home
>page (where else?), http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad/ -
>therefore, Sir, your statement that "no one is allowed two see
>it" is demonstrably incorrect.
>
>Even _without_ FBs homepage, I submit that there are at least
>a dozen-and-a-half readers here who have, in fact, seen the
>legendary FBTS in person. That YOU have not seen it is of
>interest only to those marginal historians who know nothing
>about Fatbroads. 
>
>Had you come to Tampa, you might have seen one, but you know that.
>
>Sieg ZOG.
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html

	Could it be that Mr.McVay, "Director" of the righteous and pure
Holocaust anti-Hate website Nizkor, advocates and practices the
ridicule and hate of obese people?
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 15:53:10 PDT 1996
Article: 67127 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust tyranny
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:13:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <3242a684.1220543@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

	Mr. Morris' post stands right here. So no need to repost the
whole 185 lines for a little comment.
	The first part of Mr.Morris' very academic post strived to
discredit Bacon, regardless of Mr. Morris' disclaimer that it wasn't.
As I read the indictment I could see that all the things that
Mr.Morris' used could be applied to the policies of the Jewish state
of Israel.
	I could very well exchange the name of the person to any of the
ardent Israel fanatics, cited the statement that is so widely squawked
for Israel, "Israel is a democracy" and then went off to recite all
the offenses.
	Are we to have a series by Mr.Morris', indicting the other names,
or did he just happen to single out Bacon? We can wait and see.
	As to the rest of Mr.Morris' quite academic 185 line attempt, I
merely cite "Brevity is the spice of life". Author unknown at this
time. Name of author not necessary, nor his history, to make the quote
right or wrong. 

	The anti-totalitarian Holocaust statement again,

 "Liberty of speech, inviteth and provoketh liberty to be used again,
and so bringeth much to a man's knowledge." 

	"A rose is a rose is a rose, and by any other name would smell
just as sweet."


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 15:53:12 PDT 1996
Article: 67128 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:14:06 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <3242a69b.1243611@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32317319.1073014@news.pacificnet.net> <323ff6d5.491578@news.pacificnet.net>  <32415cc9.154064@news.pacificnet.net> <51s109$epa@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <32415cc9.154064@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	Poor Mr.VanAlstine, he does the best he can. But not even he has
>>faith in his own stuff. This is exemplified in his little acid
>>interjected remarks. Down by the school yard stuff.
>
>Translation: Mr. Moran has no rational response to Mr. Van Alstine's
>criticism that Mr. Moran's response tyo the issues I raised is
>inadequate.  Mr. Moran is writing words he doesn't understand about a
>topic that is well beyond his ability to comprehend.  Are his arguments
>the best that the deniars can come up with?
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green

	Now that is a heavy declaration or closing statement, whatever it
is.
	Evidently Mr.Green dosesn't feel confortable enough with whatever
he tried during the discussion.

	The record of the discussion is all right above. Moran rests on
the record.

>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"Remember the days of yore,
>"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>       -Deuteronomy 32:7



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 15:53:12 PDT 1996
Article: 67129 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Better dead than alive
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:24:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:89861 alt.revisionism:67129


	The state department has issued a directive to U.S. airlines that
fly over the Gulf of Arabia.

	Should any problems occur, they are to take their chances on
ditching in the water instead of making a emergency landing at a Iraqi
or Iranian airport. 

	No one with any respect for reason would think that anything bad
would happen to any passengers or airline personnel if such a
emergency landing did take place in either one of these lands of
Israel's enemies.

	To avoid this likelihood, it is better to have the crew and
passengers die in the water than to chance an embarrassment from any
good treatment that might show Israel's enemies are not all that the
U.S. dominated press would have us believe.    


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 20 18:38:26 PDT 1996
Article: 67160 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:21:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 175
Message-ID: <323ff6d5.491578@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32317319.1073014@news.pacificnet.net> <323ac512.4335230@news.pacificnet.net> <51he81$6h2@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <323d5938.1190499@news.pacificnet.net> <51k2vk$8hk@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU>
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rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <323d5938.1190499@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	Really? What issues did you raise that were not addressed?
>
>I'll remind you.
>
>Mr. Moran wrote:
>
>>		Prussian blue "origins not clear"? You mean when they found
>>it in high concentrations outside of known fumigation facilities it
>>was "not clear" as to its origin?. 
>
>I responded:
>
>Perhaps Mr. Moran can explain the process by which Prussian blue is
>formed.  Unfortunately, his hero Rudolf failed to do so.

	CN compound combines with iron. Now what?

>Mr. Moran wrote:
>
>>	As we can see from the tests, the agent HCN does not fair well
>>under time and weather. Even after a limited flushing with distilled
>>water and a months time, 100% of the agent can disappear.
>>	So how do we explain the finding of any HCN after all these
>>years and 100 feet of acid rain? We don't. No HCN was found, as is
>>clear from the report. Only cyanide "compounds", "groups" or "ions"
>>were detected.
>
>I responded:
>
>Mr. Moran displays his ignorance of solution equilibria for the world to
>see.  Is Rudolf's knowlege of chemistry as poor as Mr. Moran's?

	Non-respondable.


>Mr. Moran wrote:
>
>
>>	Cyanide compounds are found naturally. Carbon and Nitrogen are
>>relatively common elements that have a wide range of easy combinant
>>capablities with other elements and each other. Cyanide compounds can
>>be found under a list of organic molecules. They can be organic
>>constituants of life, and are in fact even produced by organic
>>processes, such as fair amounts are found in cherry pits.
>
>I responded:
>
>Mr. Moran has posted this claim before yet he never informed us of how
>many cherry trees were growing at Birkenau and why the pits only ended
>up in places where cyanide was known to have been used.

	Did the statement anywhere imply any CN compounds found at any
site originated from cherry pits, or is this the way you put it?

	As far as any CN compounds "end(ing) up in places where cyanide
was known to have been used", the facts are they found it pretty much
wherever they checked, outside of any barracks that are protected from
the 100 feet of acid rain that is said to have fallen on the area by
the time the test were done. 
	Further, there were readings from places that were "known" to
have used CN, like fumigation chambers, that showed 0 readings. Not
explained in the report. In fact they inferred nothing from any of the
test in their "Final Remarks".

>Mr. Moran wrote:
>
>>	Nitrogen and Carbon are readily found in soils. In fact
>>Nitrogen is one of the major proportions of earth's air. Carbon and
>>Nitrogen can combine with each other quite easily in geological,
>>natural formats. CN, cyanide, can attach to a whole array of other
>>elements and molecules and thus come under the heading "cyanide
>>compound" or "group" with a full array of variations.
>
>I responded:
>
>Why were they not present in the barracks?

	As the record of this topic shows in other posts, between us,
they were protected from the weather elements, above ground, not prone
to any precipitation of elements, that would have originated from the
chemical compositions in the soil and 100 feet of acid rain.

>Mr. Moran wrote:
>
>>	Chemical equations of various cyanide compounds are extensive
>>and some show that when tests are done to detect Cyanides starting off
>>with chemicals in a water solution the other side of the equation
>>shows that even the H2O has been broken down and its components H and
>>O reincorporated into something else.  	
>
>I Responded:
>
>Mr. Moran's ignorance of simple acid-base chemistry is noted.

	Non-responable.

>[My note now: Who does Mr. Moran think he is convincing?  Any Junior
>High student can tell you that there is an equilibrium in solution:
>
>MCN + H2O <=> HCN + MOH, where M is generally some metal.]

	And?

>Mr. Moran wrote:
>
>
>>	On the other hand, the highest amounts of cyanide compounds
>>found, outside of that detected in the Prussian blue stains in the
>>fumigation chambers and the bathhouse, are those found in Crema I and
>>II, and the amounts said to have been found in the cellar of "block
>>11", all underground structures built of concrete, prone to dampness
>>and thus prime places for the dynamics of precipitous deposit to
>>occur.
>
>I responded:
>
>Mr. Moran's evidence that these places were damper than the barracks
>is...

	"Common sense". The "places" you are talking about are the
(subterranean cellars). Now you tell readers the barracks above
ground, with roofs, are equally or more so prone to dampness than the
cellars.

>Mr. Moran's explanation of the source of the cyanide that is
>precipitously depositing itself selectively in places where there is a
>historical record of the use of cyanide and not other places is...
>
>Mr. Moran wrote:
>
>>	As far as the Leuchter Report or the Polish report are
>>concerned, including the paragraphs with the "revisionist" word, none
>>of it is sufficient to deny or confirm any part of the Holocaust
>>story. 
>
>I responded:
>
>The Crakow report is not proof in and of itself, but it is corroborating
>evidence.  When all the best evidence leads to the same conclusion it is
>not unreasonable to suggest that that conclusion is the best explanation
>of the facts.

	Well I'll leave this one up 'for grabs', unless you want to
expand on the "best evidence"/"same conclusion" hypothesis.

>[When can we expect a substantive response from Mr. Moran?]

	I hope you don't forget to show where I said the CN compounds
found in the test originated from cherry pits, so it doesn't look like
you were trying to pull a fast one.

	I would still be interested in hearing your argument that any
"barracks" are good choices for, or even qualify as a place from which
to take "background" levels.

	Try to make it good. This is our last go-around with this. The
next time I just repost all the exchanges.

>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"Remember the days of yore,
>"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>       -Deuteronomy 32:7



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 00:03:52 PDT 1996
Article: 67204 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kristalnacht in England
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:46:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <32415cc3.148791@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32356f1f.743409@news.pacificnet.net> <3237B2C1.167E@itsa.ucsf.edu> <323e9a2b.668876@news.pacificnet.net> <843084260snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) wrote:

>In article <323e9a2b.668876@news.pacificnet.net>
>           tm@pacificnet.net "tom moran" writes:
>
>> Brian Harmon  wrote:
>> 
>> >tom moran wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >>         When David Irving's book "Goebbels" went on sale in England
>> >> "someone" went around and broke the windows of the book stores selling
>> >> the book. Then the 'someones' left a note telling the shop owners if
>> >> they wanted to make sure there was no more kristalnachting they better
>> >> stop selling the book.
>> >
>> >Erh, tom? 
>> >
>> >What's your source for this?
>
>There was a well organised campaign to stop shops taking the book, including
>one or two acts of vandalism. ANAL (the so-called Anti-Nazi League), boasted
>of defacing advertising posters. I don't think in all honesty you can liken
>it to Kristallnacht though. I think Mr Moran was probably being sarcastic.

	The broken windows, was related by Mr.Irving. Kristallnacht
analogy "Sarcastic"? Could be. Maybe more so an
analogy/hypocrit/Jewish/Holocaust/Nazi past connection.


>-- 
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 00:03:53 PDT 1996
Article: 67214 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What? No rabbis?
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:51:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 49
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	Posted by Mr.Keren, under "Priests murdered in Dachau".

       What does Mr.Keren care about priests? He doesn't. 
===================================================================	
	Take note of this list caption.

	Clergymen in Dachau classified according to nationality 
and religion. Note very high number (and percentage) of 
Polish priests who were murdered in the camp.

Source: SS records, quoted in "Concentration Camp Dachau", 
ISBN 3-87490-528-4, p. 60. 

Nationality      Total   Released   Transferred  Liberated   Deaths
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Albanian           2         -           2            -         -
Belgian           46         1           3           33         9
Danish             5         5           -            -         -
German           447       208         100           45        94
English            2         -           1            1         -
French           156         5           4          137        10
Greek              2         -           -            2         -
Dutch             63        10           -           36        17
Italian           28         -           1           26         1
Lithuanian         3         -           -            3         -
Luxemburg         16         2           -            8         6
Norwegian          1         1           -            -         -
Polish          1780        78           4          830       868
Rumanian           1         -           -            1         -
Jugoslavian       50         2           6           38         4
Spanish            1         -           -            1         -

Swiss              2         1           -            -         1
Czechoslovakian  109         1          10           74        24
Hungarian          3         -           -            3         - 
Stateless          3         -           1            2         -


Roman Catholic               2579
Protestant                   109
Greek Orthodox                22
Old Catholic and Maronite      8
Mohammedan                     2

	

	Clergymen in Dachau classified according to nationality 
and religion. Note the absolute absence of any rabbis.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 00:03:53 PDT 1996
Article: 67220 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Goyim are scum
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:53:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	So sayeth the Torah and the Talmud.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 00:03:54 PDT 1996
Article: 67222 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Whole Diplomatic World Knows
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:40:17 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <323ffa9f.1461169@news.pacificnet.net>
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <323ee5cf.387276@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>                                 
>> The whole diplomatic world knows why the United States is the
>> only nation confronting Israel's enemy, Iraq.... Of course there 
>> is the other battle cry, "Holocaust", "Holocaust", "Holocaust". 
>
>Moran, Try "Oil, Oil, OIl." 
>
>What a simpering idiot....

	Really? "Oil, oil, oil" he say's? He say's the U.S. gets oil from
Iraq? Then it's not rights for the Kurds, he say's? He say's Europe
doesn't use oil, and that is why they don't want to get involved?

	 

>Mark



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 00:03:55 PDT 1996
Article: 67224 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The USS Liberty attack, no accident
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:58:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>jim  (Jim Ennes) writes:
>
># No objective person who has ever studied this attack believes
># that it was an accident.  That includes Secretary of State
># Dean Rusk, JCS Chairman Admiral Tom Moorer, and a score of
># other senior US Government officials who are all on public
># record calling it a deliberate attack.
>
>Yes, Mr. Ennes. But there are officials who believe it was an
>accident, including Robert McNamara.

	Okay, there's one (1).


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 09:51:34 PDT 1996
Article: 67235 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zen Buddha SAYS
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:48:41 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <51qh31$m8r@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>
>> Zen Buddha says:  If you are seeking for the truth, look for a lie...and
>> that's why revisionists are here:  we are seeking the truth.
>
>Of course, the only lies are the ones fabricated by the revisionists. In
>your case, the following example is glaringly present:
>
>In a recent email, later posted to the Usenet, you made the following claim
>about the SWC:
>
>"What do you say to the fact that many Jewish publications also quoted
>this 4,000,000 figure for YEARS until the research made primarily by
>revisionist scholars embarrassed the hell out of them.  Why did the Simon
>Wiesenthal Center keep silent on this figure until recently?  Could MONEY
>have anything to do with it?"
>
>You have yet to answer the following questions without prevarication:
>
>(1) why you made a baseless accusation as documented above regarding the SWC
>(2) where is the proof for the following:
>   (a) that the SWC  promoted the figure of 4 million knowing it was wrong
>   (b) that this was done for money
>(3) when you can't provide that proof, he is requested to revist part
>1 and supply the truth.

	The proof is derived from what wasn't given when it should have
been. Big questions and no place for chutzhah to respond.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 09:51:35 PDT 1996
Article: 67244 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:51:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Clergymen in Dachau classified according to nationality 
>and religion. Note very high number (and percentage) of 
>Polish priests who were murdered in the camp.
>
>Source: SS records, quoted in "Concentration Camp Dachau", 
>ISBN 3-87490-528-4, p. 60. 
>
>Nationality      Total   Released   Transferred  Liberated   Deaths
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Albanian           2         -           2            -         -
>Belgian           46         1           3           33         9
>Danish             5         5           -            -         -
>German           447       208         100           45        94
>English            2         -           1            1         -
>French           156         5           4          137        10
>Greek              2         -           -            2         -
>Dutch             63        10           -           36        17
>Italian           28         -           1           26         1
>Lithuanian         3         -           -            3         -
>Luxemburg         16         2           -            8         6
>Norwegian          1         1           -            -         -
>Polish          1780        78           4          830       868
>Rumanian           1         -           -            1         -
>Jugoslavian       50         2           6           38         4
>Spanish            1         -           -            1         -        
>Swiss              2         1           -            -         1
>Czechoslovakian  109         1          10           74        24
>Hungarian          3         -           -            3         - 
>Stateless          3         -           1            2         -
>
>
>Roman Catholic               2579
>Protestant                   109
>Greek Orthodox                22
>Old Catholic and Maronite      8
>Mohammedan                     2

	I wonder if Mr.Keren has anything else to offer here. Does he
have a reason why so many Polish priests would have been killed. So he
won't waste anytime on anything else, we can take note that 900 of
them went free.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 09:51:36 PDT 1996
Article: 67247 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:51:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Clergymen in Dachau classified according to nationality 
>and religion. Note very high number (and percentage) of 
>Polish priests who were murdered in the camp.
>
>Source: SS records, quoted in "Concentration Camp Dachau", 
>ISBN 3-87490-528-4, p. 60. 
>
>Nationality      Total   Released   Transferred  Liberated   Deaths
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Albanian           2         -           2            -         -
>Belgian           46         1           3           33         9
>Danish             5         5           -            -         -
>German           447       208         100           45        94
>English            2         -           1            1         -
>French           156         5           4          137        10
>Greek              2         -           -            2         -
>Dutch             63        10           -           36        17
>Italian           28         -           1           26         1
>Lithuanian         3         -           -            3         -
>Luxemburg         16         2           -            8         6
>Norwegian          1         1           -            -         -
>Polish          1780        78           4          830       868
>Rumanian           1         -           -            1         -
>Jugoslavian       50         2           6           38         4
>Spanish            1         -           -            1         -        
>Swiss              2         1           -            -         1
>Czechoslovakian  109         1          10           74        24
>Hungarian          3         -           -            3         - 
>Stateless          3         -           1            2         -
>
>
>Roman Catholic               2579
>Protestant                   109
>Greek Orthodox                22
>Old Catholic and Maronite      8
>Mohammedan                     2

	Dachau isn't on the list of extermination camps anymore like it
was years ago. There seems to be enough information available to show
there were no gas chambers. Maybe Mr.Keren would like to say how the
numbers on this list were killed? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 09:51:36 PDT 1996
Article: 67319 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 04:03:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
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Marty Kelley  wrote:


>In other words, Mr. Moran completely ignores the content of my post, only
>to complain about a stylistic device I used all of eight times in twelve 
>screens, worth of text.  Tell you what, Mr. Moran: I'll re-post the entire
>thing with the caps and underlinings (except to indicate
>publication titles) removed, and then perhaps you can address my
>substantive points about the serious flaws in your logic.  Fair enough?

	Don't bother. Feel comfortable with what you gave. If you think
you made your point and I didn't, so be it. The record is there for
whoever.

	It would be interesting to see how your class would handle it,
Mr.Kelley. It's your class. You have the control. You could even nudge
them a little bit in a certain direction. Try it. Post the treatments.



>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)   
>
>"The level of discourse in campaigns is so low, we really may 
>as well get in a tub of Jello and wrestle."
>   --Rep. Patricia Schroeder, on Comedy Central's "Politically Incorrect"
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 09:51:37 PDT 1996
Article: 67330 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 03:52:53 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3241e9f7.4292498@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <32415cc9.154064@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>> >moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> >> Of course you could have taken it as written to show that HCN > CN 
>> >
>> >What is "HCN > CN" supposed to signify, Moran? 
>> 
>>         It means if HCN finds it's way out of the creating format and
>> into the atmosphere, then to come in contact with other elements, it's
>> going to become a CN compound other than HCN. HCN is very prone to
>> combining with other common elements.
>
>Interesting chemistry notation you have there then, Moran, for "HCN > CN"
>to stand for all that specious gibberish. What chemistry textbook did you
>find _that_ in? 
>
>> >...can be found in natural circumstances, and thus adding to other sources
>> >for CN compounds found anywhere, including Birkenau. 
>> >
>> >And your empirical evidence that cyanides are present "anywhere" at
>> >Birkenau is? Can you, Moran, cite the random soil sampling experiment at
>> >Birkenau that shows that cyanides can be found "anywhere" at Birkenau in
>> >the concentrations found by the Institute of Forensic Research in their
>> >sampling of the buildings and ruins there? 
>> 
>> There is no empirical evidence. There was no random soil test.
>> That's the big problem with the study. 
>
>Translation: Moran was just hoist on his own petard. He was caught and
>inadvertantly admitted he was spouting bullshit again. 
>
>I like it when that happens. 
>
>> >So far, Moran, all you have evidenced is frantic handwaving.
>> 
>> VanAlstine's mood being exposed.
>
>Indeed. I'm trying not to fall off my chair from laughter at Moran's
>ignorant and self-defeating babblings about things chemical!
>
>> >> Oleander shrubs, tulip bulbs and other organic sources for HCN > CN that 
>> >> can find there way into the atmosphere for distribution to other parts 
>> >> of the  world. 
>> >
>> >And your empirical evidence that "HCN > CN" from "Oleander shrubs, tulip
>> >bulbs and other organic sources" found its way from "other parts of the
>> >world" to the ruins of Krema II is? 
>> 
>> The proof would be by taking notice of pollutants found in remote
>> areas like the Antarctica. I would expand on this for you, but I want
>> to wait for you to come back first and see if your the only one who
>> can't figure it out.
>
>What's this! The "proof" _would be_? Does Moran mean he _hasn't_
>referenced a scientific study that has already done  Uh oh, Moran was just
>hoist by his own petard. Again. That's twice in one post. Must be a
>Moranic(tm) tactic:  Get caught spouting bullshit by inadvertantly
>admitting it. All to distract one's opponents by causing them to fall out
>of their chairs from uncontrollable laughter....
>
>Almost worked too, Moran, except for the fact that I clued in early-on to
>this tactic when you first started posting in a.r.... 
>
>I put my anti-Moranic(tm) seatbelt on before I read your posts.
>
>> >So far, Moran, all you have evidenced is frantic handwaving.
>> 
>>         "frantic" you say?
>
>Yep. Frantic. As in "Oh shit! They're on to me again! I better quickly do
>something to distract them or I'm toast! Again." 
>
>> >> Coke production plants, traces from burning of coke still containing
>> >> residual HCN and even from the large amounts of Zyklon B really used
>> >> at the camp for fumigation purposes as sources for the teeny, weeny,
>> >> little, micro gram traces found at any Cremas of Birkenau.  
>> >
>> >Want to put that into English, Moran? My gist of your gibberish is that
>> >you are claiming that:
>> >
>> >1. The coking process produces HCN. Therefore, "coke production plants"
>> >produced the cyanides found in the Kremas and other places sampled at
>> >Auschwitz. 
>> 
>> Lets see, your "gist" of what I said uses the word "therefore".
>> Can you point to any sentence or phrase that would support your use of
>> the word "therefore"? 
>
>Translation: "Oh shit! They're on to me again! I better quickly do
>something to distract them or I'm toast! Again." 
>
>> 
>> >2. Combusting coke produces HCN. Therefore, the "burning of coke" produced
>> >the cyanides found in the Kremas and other places sampled at Auschwitz. 
>> 
>>         You mean I said "therefore" to this too? 
>
>Translation: "Oh shit! They're on to me again! I better quickly do
>something to distract them or I'm toast! Again." 
>
>> >3. The residual amounts of Zyklon B used at Birkenau for "fumigation 
>> >purposes" are the source for the "teeny, weeny, little, micro gram traces" 
>> >of  cyanides in the Kremas other places sampled at Auschwitz. 
>> 
>> Your restating reads " ... are the source ...". Can you point to
>> the actual lines and show that it rates being restated with your "are"
>> word?
>
>Translation: "Oh shit! They're on to me again! I better quickly do
>something to distract them or I'm toast! Again." 
>
>> >Is this correct, Moran? Please let me know ASAP, Moran, so I can rip you
>> >yet another asshole for being such a simpering idiot. 
>> 
>> Which part are you asking about, the possibility/probability of
>> CN compounds found at the sites originating from evacuated HCN after
>> fumigation, or the teeny, weeny, little, micro gram traces found?
>
>Let me reiterate, O' Simpering Idiot:
>
>1. You claim the coking process produces HCN. Please cite your references
>for this claim.
>
>2. You claim that "coke production plants" produced the cyanides found in
>the Kremas and other places sampled at Auschwitz. Please cite your
>references for this claim. Please cite the"coke production plants" where
>this HCN came from. 
>
>3. You claim that Zyklon B used at Birkenau for "fumigation purposes" are
>the source for the "teeny, weeny, little, micro gram traces"  of  cyanides
>in the Kremas and other places sampled at Auschwitz. Please cite your
>references for this claim, showing how cyanides from Zyklon B used for
>"fumigation purposes" ended up in the homicidal gas chamber. 
>
>[Moran's simpering idiocy snipped] 
>
>As soon as you find the balls to give a straight answer, Moran, you can
>grab your ankles.... 
>
>Mark 
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

	Wow. What a flurry. You can almost feel the foam coming out of
Mr.VanAlstine's finger tips. I picture him sitting at his rig, banging
down on the keyboard, gritty his teeth, wrenching his garments. I
would say the carpet underneath is all worn out in one place from
where he stamps his foot down every time he stresses one of his words,
"_hasn't_" for instance. In one of his responses to "If no lice, then
no Holocaust" he stressed about 100 words. The whole screen gets
filled with those little _ s. 

	The record is here, I'll leave it to Mr.VanAlstine to rave on
about how good he is doing, and I will rest on the record as it stands
now. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 21 13:59:32 PDT 1996
Article: 67389 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Coffee Alert!: (was: Goyim are scum)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 04:10:37 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <32436929.6427927@news.pacificnet.net>
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rjg@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <3242af9b.3546836@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>
>>	So sayeth the Torah and the Talmud.
>
>Where does the Torah say this?  Please cite a specific reference.   If
>the Torah says such a thing, why do so many Gentile Christians believe 
>it is the word of God?

	There numerous passages were the "seed" is referred to. The
genetic lineage of the biblical names are constantly being reviewed.
The Bible consistently refers to god as being their god. The Bible
states the Jews can do this or that to the gentile but not to another
Jew.
	Where exactly in the Bible? The Torah, the first five books.
Where exactly in the Torah? Couldn't say at this time. My notes are
stashed. It's repeated throughout. Anyone reading the Bible can keep
an eye out for the themes, which are common.   

	I always found it interesting the goyim would take to a book that
consistently states the doctrine is explicitly for a genetic order not
of their connection.
	Even Jesus Christ himself a number of times states the doctrine
was for the Jews. 
	It must have been the walking on water and coming back from the
dead that diverted their minds.	

>What is your reference for the Talmud saying that "gentiles are scum?"
>What translation are you reading?

	What "translation"? You mean what version? Whatever is posted at
this time on the group and that which can be found on the web. As far
as I know, the Talmud is always undergoing rewrites. I would say that
the older versions are more vituperative than the present ones. I
might theorize the newer versions are for goyim eyes and the older
ones are the ones that are actually used.

	
	It all adds up to the present day vernacular use of the word
scum. 

	
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>
>
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"Remember the days of yore,
>"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>       -Deuteronomy 32:7



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 00:09:07 PDT 1996
Article: 67511 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:46:06 GMT
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	Why am I not surprised by this?  You're brain really only has the
one channel, doesn't it, Tommy?

Tom Moran's retirement speech:

"Looking back over my many years of service to the United Toilet
Dredging Companies, I'm reminded of how evil the JOOS are..."

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 07:52:22 PDT 1996
Article: 67568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: TREBLINKA, there, gone, there again
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:31:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	For anyone who wants to check out what the Holocaust story has as
evidence for this camp being an extermination facility check out
Nizkor. (Nizkor > ftp > treblinka)
	Notice how they deny the evidence is not founded on "eyewitness"
testimony and then notice how most of their evidence is testimony and
quotes from books.
	Notice "treblinka 02." where it is quoted from the "Old Frogs
Almanac" - "When the Russians took over the Treblinka conmplex and the
nearly dead survivors ... there was no lack of physical evidence".
Notice under other clickables where it is said "The suffocated bodies
in recently arrived cattle cars ..." were there also.
	Yet the Holocaust story also has it that the camp was constructed
one year (1941-2), 2,000,000 people were exterminated the next years
(1942-3) and the next year it was plowed over and turned into a tree
farm (1943-4), and yetaccording to the above account, when the
Russians arrived a year after all this, it was still there, in full
bloom.  
	This exemplifies the typical nature of Holocaust evidence.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 07:52:23 PDT 1996
Article: 67569 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Testimonial Fiction
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:32:51 GMT
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                       BEHOLD THE ABSURD



kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: 4/19/96	

>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka leleko.002
>Source: United States Department of Justice

>                            EXCERPT 
>               From Interrogration of Defendant

>February 21, 1945. Lieutenant EPPEL', Investigator of the Fourth
>Department of the "SMERSH" Directorate of Counterintelligence of the
>Second Belorussian Front interrogated as defendant -

>      LELEKO, Pavel Vladimirovich, born in 1922, native of the village
>      of Chaplinka, Chaplinka District, Nikolayev Region, Ukrainian,
>      citizen of the USSR.

	This report like all the rest lacks a certain detail that one
might expect from a real hearing. This report is really an
"interogation" of a person who testifies to the mass extermination of
human beings at Treblinka, an alleged extermination center. It is more
like some tale with a few questions inserted. A question is asked and
then Leleko goes off with a extended comment and the interogator never
poses any request for clarification. Even UFO story writers cover
their stuff more carefully.
	As far as Treblinka is concerned, there is nothing more to the
story than "eyewitness testimony". No photographs or anything. The
Treblinka chapter of the Holocaust story has it that the 40 acre camp
was built one year where the Germans exterminated up to 2,000,000 the
next year, demolished by the Germans the next year, and was nothing
more than a tree farm a next year later. (Other Holocaust facts have
it that the camp was over run in 1945 while it was still in full
operation.)
	The report is titled "EXERPT - interrogation of defendant". So we
know we are getting only part of the story. It took place in Feb. 1945
just a month after the Russians arrived at Auschwitz.
	Instead of wearing anyone out with a lot of prelude I will just
post a summary of the report first that shows how absurd it really is.
A full step by step composition and critique follows for anyone
interested in looking into the point by point critique which
highlights the points of the summary. 
                                 =======

                             Summary

	Considering how this witness is called a defendant, we should
wonder what kind of proceedings these were. Did the defendant have a
lawyer? Who knows.
	Since the defendant was implicating other names in the testimony
we wonder if his testimony wasn't used in any trials for those named.
It would be interesting to see what these other named people testified
to. Maybe Nizkor (McVay) will post them if any exists. 
	Who knows. Maybe a Leleko never even existed. After all, the
Holocaust story refers to the Soviets as liars in the matter when its
convenient, such as who was responsible for the gross exaggerations of
the numbers said to have been killed at Auschwitz.
	One of the Almanac posts by McVay, titled "Treblinka's 'new and
improved' killing machine" describes a major renovation in the middle
of the existing extermination process at the camp, including 10 new
gas chambers, "although according to some sources the new building
included only six gas chambers", and Leleko didn't mention any of it
even though any dates given show he would have been there when any
changes were made.
	Whatever, excluding any reference to anything else, focusing just
on this testimony our summary observations would show that a "pit"
which was only a bit larger than a average sized residental swimming
pool could incinerate 1000 people at a time. That it had some kind of
fire at the bottom, that burned constantly, day and night yet could be
cleaned of ashes, that the people were either laid on rails over it,
dumped in, rolled in or were carried down into it, that 6,000 to 8,000
people were left over each day that the pit could not accommodate,
that there was always wild mayhem with arriving prisoners, that they
all knew right away what was going to happen to them but nevertheless
they were allowed to carry knives and razors, that the system was of
such a nature that the Germans had to endure total mayhem on a day by
day basis and even contibuted to it, that people in the gas chambers
tore or bit ears and noses off, that after the crushing ordeal of
tearing and/or biting ears and noses off the ones who survived were
mostly pregnant women, that the prisoners knew about their fate, yet
looked foward to the future, and that inspite of any McVay
"Transcription Note" the witness claimed 2,000,000 people were killed
there in one year. 
                        =============

                       The Full Excerpt

>Question: What was the system of mass extermination of people in the
>German death camp of Treblinka?
>
>Answer: Two to three trainloads of doomed prisoners arrived daily at
>the Treblinka railroad station. Each train consisted of 60 cars. The
>train was brought in three installments into the second section of the
>"death camp". Twenty cars were brought in every half hour. As soon as
>the cars crossed the barbed wire, the guard was changed. The policemen
>escorting the train remained outside the camp and left on the
>locomotive to fetch the next batch of prisoners. The railroads cards
>brought into the camp were immediately unloaded by the guards. We
>started to unload the cars with the help of the so-called "blue crew"
>consisting of doomed prisoners wearing a blue armband on the sleeve.
>Those arriving were told that they must first go to the batch house
>and will then be sent further to the Ukraine. But the sight of the
>camp, the enormous flaming pyre burning at one end of the camp, the
>suffocating stench from decomposing bodies that spread for some 10 km
>around and was particularly strong within the camp itself, made it
>clear what the place really was.

	Okay, right here we have the statement that everyone arriving at
the camp became immediately aware of what was in store for them.
Notice the statement that the "enormous flaming pyre" was at one end
of the camp. Treblinka is reported to have consisted of 16 hectares
(about 40 acres). Another testimony on Treblinka states that all the
burying, unburying, burning and reburying took place right inside this
40 acres. As we will see later on in the report, the witness claims
2,000,000 people were murdered and disposed of in just one year, which
would be within the confines of the 40 acres.
	The witness states the smell from the raging pyre could be
smelled ten kilometers away. "Ten kilometers"?
 
>The people chased out of the cars with whips guessed immediately where
>they had been brought; some attempted to climb over the barbed wire of
>the fencing, got caught at it, and we opened fire on those who were
>trying to escape and killed them.
> We tried to quiet down the fear-crazed people with heavy clubs.
> After all those who were able to walk had been unloaded, only the
> ailing, the killed and the wounded remained in the railroad cars.

Again, all the people were aware of what was in store for them. As we
will see, this procedure was carried out 3,000 times, using just a
years duration of time as a component of the ciphering, not including
any other "years" the witness testified to.
	It seems the Germans didn't have a very good procedure for
keeping the intended victims from knowing what was in store for them,
and never did figure one out, having to go through this wild mayhem on
a day to day basis.

>These were carried by the prisoners
>belonging to the "blue crew" into the so-called "infirmary", the name
>given to the place where the ailing and the wounded were shot and the
>dead were burned.

	Right here we have the statement saying this "infirmary" was a
place that you entered and where the dead were burned. Try to
formulate a picture of this incineration process along the way.

> This place became particularly crowded when the
>prisoners marked for death who were brought in the railroad cars
>attempted to commit suicide. Thus, in March 1943 there arrived a train
>in which half of the prisoners cut their throats and hands with
>razors.

	Now the testimony so far says 3 trains a day arrived at the camp,
each having 60 cars, and 20 cars at a time were brought up to be
unloaded, which would make the total number of times this procedure
would have happened in a year about 3000 times. Thus on this one
occasion out of 3000 times, half the prisoners cut their own throats.
	Evidentally the Germans didn't search the prisoners before 
they were loaded on the train or they were allowed to carry razors and
knives. We might assume these razors were the flip out "straight"
razor types, common to the era. Are we to believe the Germans allowed
hundreds of these weapons to get through, especially knowing what kind
of place the prisoners were going? Was this the only trainload that
had possession of all these knives and razors? 
	The testimony that these people killed themselves before they
even got off the train would indicate they knew what was in store for
them even before unloading.

> While unloading was going on, the prisoners cut themselves
>with knives and razors before the eyes of us, the policement, saying: 
>"anyhow you will kill us". The majority of those who did not die of
>self-inflicted wounds were shot. After the unloading, all those who
>could stand on their feet were chased toward the undressing place.
>There the wormen were separated from the men and pushed into a special
>barrack, while the men were told to undress right there outside
>another barrack. During the first years of the existence of the camp,
>women and men undressed together in the same barrack,

	The Holocaust story has it that Treblinka was in operation for
only a year yet here we have the testimony, "During the first years of
the existance of the camp ...". Evidentally this testimony wasn't
synchronized with other accounts that had to have the process of the
camp last only one year.

> But it happened
>once that the prisoners attacked the "chief of the working crew" in
>the undressing barrack. Somehow the man managed to escape from there.
>Several policemen and Germans immediately rushed in. One of the
>Germans started firing into the crowd from his sub-machine gun. After
>they had stopped shooting, the Germans and the policemen started to
>beat with clubs and whips those who survivied. After this incident,
>men were assigned a special place in the  open air in which to
>undress, by the barrack, across from the women's undressing place.
>Pushed by the clubs of the Germans and the policemen, the men threw
>off their clothing, having first handed their valuables and money to a
>special "cashier's office". The women were obliged to remove their
>shoes before entering the undressingplace. They were forced to remove
>all their clothing under the supervision of German policemen and
>prisoners of the so-called "red crew". Those who resisted were
>whipped.

	Here we have the first accounts of the brutal sadistic nature of
the Germans. 

>Very often the Germans and the policemen tore off and cut off the
>clothing of those who did not want to undress or undressed too slowly.
>Many women begged to be allowed to keep at least some clothing on
>their persons, but the German, smiling cynically, ordered them to
>undress "to the end". The policemen or the workers threw to the ground
>and undressed who refused to do so. The undressed women were told to
>hand over all their valuables and money to the "cashier's office".
>After this the women were driven in groups to another part of the
>barrack, where 50 prisoners - "hairdressers" were working. The women
>sat on a long bench and the "hairdressers" cut off their hair. The cut
>hair were packed in large bags and sent by trainloads to Germany. One
>of the Germans told me that in Germany they are used to fill
>mattresses, also for soft upholstery. He said that this hair make very
>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.

	The hair was bagged and sent to Germany to be made into
mattresses and upholstery. This is in the same ilk as the now defunct
soap story which was well publicized in the early years after the war.
We could take special note of the attack on the German people in
general with "He said that this hair make very good mattresses and the
Germans buy them willingly". "Willingly" to imply they knew what they
were buying.

>good mattresses and the Germans buy them willingly.
>After their hair was cut the women were sent in batches to the third
>section of the camp, to the "bath house", but in reality to the gas
>chamber to be exterminated there.
>
>Before entering the gas chamber building they passed along a long path
>bordered on both sides with a high fence made of barbed wire and
>branches. Along the edge of the path stood policemen and Germans. Each
>one held a whip or a club. I stood repeatedly on the edge of this path
>with other policemen and drove along with a whip the women and the men
>into the gas chamber building. Many women were not quite sure that
>they would now be exterminated and in order to have some means of
>subsistence in the future, they hid some valuables on their persons.

	All of a sudden the prisoners, who in the immediate previous
testimony were all supposed to know they were going to die, hid their
valuables so they would "have some subsistence in the future".
"Future"? 

>To prevent this, the Germans placed special controllers in the center
>of the path. When they noticed that a woman walked along the path
>holding her legs close together, she was stopped at once and cynically
>examined, and if anything was found on her, she was beaten almost to
>death. The men walked more quietly down this path. Several times I
>heard how one, speaking to another, asked: "Why are you weeping? Do
>you believe you can arouse compassion in these Germans?" Frequently we
>could hear cries of "Hail Stalin!", "Hail the Red Army!" To us Russian
>guards, they said: "Today you exterminate us, and tomorrow the Germans
>will be killing you".
>
>When the procession of doomed people approached the gas chamber
>building, MARCHENKO and Nikolay, the motorists of the gas chambers
>shouted: "Walk faster, or the water will become cold!" Each group of
>women or men was pushed from behind by some German and very frequently
>by Franz, the camp commander himself, escorted by dogs. As they
>approached the gas chambers, the people started to recoil in horror,
>sometimes they tried to retrace their steps. Then whips and clubs were
>used. Franz immediately ordered his dog to attack the naken people.
>Each trained for this, it grabbed them by their genitals.

	Okay, more stories of German brutality. 

>Aside from the motor operators who had dogs with them, there were five
>or six Germans near the gas chambers. With whips and clubs they chased
>people into the passage of the gas chamber building and then into the
>gas chambers. The Germans and the motor operators then competed as to
>atrocities with regard to the people to be killed. MARCHENKO for
>instance, had a sword with which he mutilated people. He cut off the
>breasts of women.

	Can you picture it. As the Germans and the Russian motorman were
herding the people into the gas chamber they took time to hack a few
in front of the others. Evidentally the Germans didn't worry about
this causing any panic among the rest, all this happening again and
again during the 3000+ times the procedure took place. Can you picture
it? Womens breasts laying around on the ground. What happened then?
Did they just file the people into the chambers over the cut off
breasts or did someone have to go around and pick them up? Did they
put the mutilated body parts in containers and then take them over to
the cremation along with the rest of the bodies?
 
>When the chamber was filled to capacity, the Germans or the motorists
>came to the door and started beating up the naked people with a rubber
>whip and at the same time set their dogs against them. The prisoners
>shrank away into the depth of the chamber yielding place to more
>prisoners.
> Such a pressing-in occurred several times so that some 700
>to 800 people could be crowded into the not-so-large chambers. When
>the chambers were filled to the very limit, the Germans started to
>throw in the children left by the women either in the undressing place
>or more frequently outside the gas chamber building. As the ceiling of
>the gas chambers was very low, the children thrown into the chamber
>hit the ceiling and then, disfigured, sometimes with broken heads,
>fell on the heads of the prisoners.

	We will recognize by the end of what is given, we can not get a
picture of this chamber in our heads or the size of the door. But
according to a previous post by McVay "Holocaust Almanac: The Killing
Begins" posted 10/23/95, the doors would have been barely three feet
across by 5 feet high. This Leleko testimony says kids were thrown in
over the heads of those in the chamber. The ceiling is said to have
been very low. An average ceiling is about 8 feet, but this one was
very low. Seven feet? Six feet? Now how far could someone throw a
child in under the circumstances described?  The people were densed
packed in, so they must have been right at the door way too. How did
the Germans contain this situation while throwing in the children
through a 3 foot by 5 foot door with very little head room as the
space that the children were thrown? According to the other mentioned
testimony, fake shower heads were installed which one might think even
put more of a problem of throwing in babies over the heads of the
dense packed people.
	Whatever, the McVay Almanac account says "There had been
instances in the old chambers in which little children had not been
asphyxiated because gas rose to the ceiling". This seems thoroughly
contradictory to this Leleko testimony, or vice versa.	

>When loading of the chambers was completed, they were sealed off by
>hermetically closing doors. 

	On the one hand the witness says a chamber was loaded with 800
people and the another post by McVay from the Almanac says 600. 

>Motorists MARCHENKO and Nikolay started
>the motors. The gas produced went through the pipes into the chambers.
>The process of suffocation began.

	This person is under the opinion that the extermination process
was by suffocation and not the result of being poisoned with carbon
monoxide. In the other testimony mentioned, it says the gas was
introduced through the piping to the showerheads, a story that was
applied at on time to tales of Auschwitz, and other camps now revised
as having never been extermination camps in the first place. 

> Some time after the motor had been
>started, the motorists looked into the chambers through special
>observation portholes situated near each door, in order to determine
>how the process of extermination was going on. When asked what they
>saw, the motorists answered that the people were writhing, crushing
>each other. I also tried to look through the porthole, but for some
>reason could see nothing. 

	He looked in but couldn't see anything? Was this only once out of
all the time he was there, or did he attempt it numerous times? The
motorman didn't seem to have any problem looking inside, even though
he should have, since the Almanac says there were no lights at all
inside the chamber. 

>Gradually the noise in the chambers died
>down. Some fifteen minutes later the motors were stopped and there was
>an unusual silence.
>
>While extermination of this batch of prisoners went on, a new batch of
>condemned people arrived into the camp. The entire process started all
>over again.
>
>Question: What was done with the bodies of the prisoners?

	So we can see from this question the interogators weren't
concerned with or didn't formulate any questions while listening to
the witness.

>Answer: When the process of extermination by gasses was completed, the
>outer doors of the chambers were opened. The disfigured, bitten
>prisoners, with torn-off noses and ears lay on top of each other in
>the most varied postures.

	Suddenly "outer doors". Actually going by the description of how
the Germans made a number of whippings to get more and more people
into the chambers, "800 in a not too large of a chamber" we wonder how
they would have room to "writher and crush" each other. They should
all have died standing up.
	What happened inside the chambers? The prisoners "tore off" their
own noses and ears or they tore each others noses and ears off? How
did they do this in a tight dense pack situation like the one thus
described? How does one tear off noses and ears? Maybe it means the
victims bit each others ears and noses off.
	This didn't seem to be the case in the tales of Auschwitz.
Perhaps Holocaust defenders would say it because they were gassed with
carbon momoxide. Yet carbon monoxide is a very sutble gas. Many people
have died from just being in the same room with some brickettes,
trying to keep warm. They die in their sleep. And of course many
people have committed suicide by sitting in their car with a hose
running from the tail pipe through a window. Are these all reported to
have died in a writhering agony?

>Several hundred prisoners destined for death and belonging to the
>"working crews" were chased to the gas chamber building and they
>started to unload the chambers.

	Several hundred were involved in unloading the chambers.      

> In order to facilitate the removal of
>the dead bodies from the chambers, streams of water were poured over
>them. The bodies were laid on stretchers. An especially assigned man
>with pincers stood right there and opened the dead mouths. If he found
>any gold teeth he yanked them out with his pincers. The bodies were
>carried on stretchers to the special furnace about which I have
>testified earlier.

	Here we have it one guy, "An especially assigned man" standing
"right there" to pull the teeth as the hundreds of workers filed up to
and away from the chamber. We can imagine the process would be quite
confusing, what with all the bodies crammed in, the workers lined up
to get the bodies, stopping to have the teeth pulled out of the body
they were carrying, filing past each other back and forth over the
path as they retrieved and carried away back to be cremated. All this
with body parts laying around on the ground?

> On the way there, under the effect of the fresh
>air, some of the killed, especially pregnant women, began to revive,
>to groan.

	After the massive crushing into the chamber(s), there to wait 15
minutes while the gas was introduced and people were writhering in the
dense pack situation, tearing and/or biting noses and ears off, it
turns out the ones that survived were mostly pregnant women.  

> We the policemen, shot them on the spot and I had to shoot
>them too. The bodies were laid on the rails of the incinerator where
>the fire burned already. Some 800-1000 bodies were laid on the
>incinerator at one time.

	Take note of these mentioned "rails". Were they over some kind of
pit? Maybe we'll find out down the road. We can hold onto the "800 to
1,000 bodies" for future comment.  

> They continued to burn for some five hours.

	Amid this testimony it is said that a new batch was brought in
every half hour, that there were 2 to 3 trains a day coming in, each
one holding 3,500 to 4,000 people. Lets take the 3,500, giving the
Holocaust story the benefits of the lower numbers. This would be
rounded off, 10,000 people a day. Giving the Holocaust story the
benefit of the two numbers we can say 1000 people were cremated every
6 hours, giving time for loading the bodies and recovering any ashes.
This would come out to roughly 4 loads a day, 1000 people per load,
4,000 a day, leaving 6,000 left over, daily. Not giving the Holocaust
story any accomodation in the numbers the number of people left over
beyond the system's capacity would be 8,000. 

>This incinerator functioned ceaselessly day and night. After the
>bodies had been burned, the prisoners belonging to the "working crews"
>passed the ashes and remains of the bodies through a sieve.

	Now this conveniently accounts for why there has never been any
evidence found that would support the story of millions being killed.

> The parts
>of the body that had burned but had preserved their natural shape were
>put into a special mortar and pounded into flour. This was done in
>order to hide the traces of the crimes committed. Later on the ashes
>were buried in deep pits.
>
>During the first year of the existence of the "death camp", the bodies
>of the dead people were not burned but were buried.
	
	We can see the statement says the bodies were buried whole in the
first year, so this would do away with anyone trying to say the 6,000
to 8,000 left over bodies on a day by day occurance were not taken to
other areas to be burned, buried or whatever. The next statement
reiterates this.  

> Starting in 1943,
>after the incinerator was built, the pits with the bodies buried in
>them were opened up and the content burned.

	 The story having the bodies dug up, burned and reburied would
seem to explain why no evidence of such a vast undertaking exists. But
this is not the case. The vast amount of ashes in the disrupted
regolithic sequence of the soil would be subject to investigation and
determination by soil analysis and comparison with adjacent land, even
unto today. Especially since the whole thing was said to have taken
place within 40 acres of land, making location of the graves sites
easy, if any existed.
	It should be recalled that this interogation was supplied by the
Soviets, who never did one single forensic test or probe to verify any
of the allegations or testimony they presented. 

> All this work was done by
>the prisoners waiting to die under the supervision of the Germans and
>of us, the policemen.
>
>Question: What was the purpose of the so-called "infirmary"?
>
>Answer: The Germans gave the name of "infirmary" to that place in the
>death camp where the sick and wounded prisoners were killed. The
>"infirmary" covered a small area, in the center of which there was a
>large pit six to eight meters in diameter and three meters deep. At
>its bottom there always burned a fire into which the bodies were
>thrown.

	Okay. The "infirmary" has been identified again as the place
where the cremations took place. No other place is mentioned. Here we
are given further details as to the fire pit (incineration facility).
It was about 7 meters (21 feet) across and three meters (9 feet) deep.
Just a little bigger than the area size of a average residential
swimming pool. 

> The entire area of the "infirmary" was surrounded by a large
>fence of barbed wire and branches. To the side of the fire, around the
>corner of the fence, there was a sentry hut in which those who worked
>in the "infirmary" rested and warmed themselves. Those included MATUS,
>the German unterscharfu"hrer, whom we called the "doctor", the
>policeman-guard and five prisoners from the "working crew". On their
>sleeves they wore white bands with a red cross. When the trains
>carrying the doomed prisoners came in, all those who could not move,
>the ailing and the wounded were carried or assisted to the sentry hut
>in the "infirmary" by the prisoners belonging to the working crews.
>There the "infirmary attendants" quickly undressed them, brought them
>to the fire in groups of several and sat them on the ground. MATUS
>then approached them from behind and shot them one after the other
>either with his pistol, his submachine gun or his rifle.

	Of course a little more about German brutality.

> The dead rolled to the bottom of the pit to the fire.

	Okay, the dead "rolled" to the bottom of the pit, which would
indicate it was sort of bowl shaped. To the "bottom" of the pit and
thus to the "fire"? What kind of fire? Some logs burning at the
bottom? A grate over burners fed by gas or oil? What happened to the
"rails" that he said they laid the bodies on? Who knows? Will we find
out the answer to all this by the end of this report? No.

> We the guards who were on
>duty in the "infirmary" also took part in the shooting. When all the
>wounded and the sick had been killed, the "infirmary attendants" went
>down into the pit and threw the dead into the fire.

	Wait a minute. The workers went down into the pit to throw the
dead into the fires? But what about the "rails" or rolling the bodies
down?

> At least 100
>prisoners were shot daily in the "infirmary". It happened once that
>among the ailing in an incoming train there were the father and mother
>of one of the prisoners destined to die and belonging to a "working
>crew". Pushed by policemen, he carried his father to the "infirmary"
>to be shot. In the "infirmary", near the sentry hut, he and his father
>fell to the ground. MATUS threw himself at him with a whip. He then
>ran to the train and soon returned carrying his mother. After this he
>became insane. The German shot him and then killed the father and the
>mother.

	A special personal detail.
>
>Question: What were the "working crews" of the "death camp"? How were
>they assembled?
>
>Answer: As I have already testified, the servicing of the "death camp"
>was carried out by special crews composed of those who had been
>brought in for extermination. They camp comprised several "working
>crews", such as the "blue" working crew which unloaded the trains, the
>"red" working crew which serviced the undressing places, the "black"
>working crew which destroyed the bodies. There was also a special crew
>that sorted out the belongings of the killed. Altogether the crews
>numbered up to 1,500 persons. They also included some 15 women who did
>the washing of clothes. Selection into the working crew took place
>according to the need for their services - from among the prisoners
>brought to the camp to be exterminated. Until the end of 1942 the
>working crews were assembled every two-three days and correspondingly,
>every two-three days they were all exterminated in the "infirmary".

	Every three days the Germans exterminated 1,500 workers, in the
infirmary? Considering Leleko's previous statement "The
"infirmary" covered a small area ..." we might get the idea this would
be a bit chaotic. 

>Their extermination was conducted in the following manner. After work,
>around 10-11 p.m., a working crew of some 100-200 people was brought
>to the "infirmary". They were then taken into the place in batches of
>five and shot there by the policemen and the Germans. Those belonging
>to the working crews and who happened to be then near the barbed wire
>fencing in the "infirmary" could hear how their comrades were being
>killed and waited for their own death. Within one and one half or two
>hours hundreds of people had been shot and were burning on the fire.
>Working crews were also exterminated for having done something that
>displeased the Germans.

	The former workers were taken into the infirmary 5 at a time.
Okay. At least we don't have to struggle trying to conceive a picture
of them being in there all at once. But hold it. There were 1,500 all
together that were exterminated 5 at a time which would mean the
procedure would have had to repeat itself 300 times, taking place
during a time span of "one to one and a half to two hours", which
would come out to one batch every 20 seconds for a one and a half hour
duration. This must have been quite a scene, what with the other
bodies being brought in to the infirmary from the gas chambers. Why
did the Germans bring in the workers 5 at a time? The witness doesn't
say. 

>In September 1942, soon after I entered the "death camp" as they were
>laying down bodies for burial in the large pits, the workers killed a
>German who had shown particularly savage cruelty toward the prisoners.

	More German brutality.		

>Immediately the entire crew, numbering some 250 people, were grouped
>at the bottom of the pit together with the bodies that they had not
>yet had time to bury. The workers were executed right there over the
>bodies of the dead prisoners. One after the other they were brought to
>the end of the pit, laid on the dead bodies and their heads were cut
>off or split up with an axe or wooden mallet. All 250 were killed in
>this way.
>
>A similar case occurred soon after in the first section of the "death
>camp".
>
> During the evening inspection, a German conducting the
>inspection, displeased with the workers because their answers were not
>clear enough, started to beat them in turn and during this incident,
>one of the workers hit him with a knife. The entire crew was
>immediately surrounded by Germans and policemen. Every fifth worker
>was killed with axes in full view of the entire assembly. Over 50
>persons were thus hacked down.

	More German brutality.

>It happened that the Germans learned that several among the working
>crews were preparing a riot. These people, they were found to be ten
>of them, were seized and hung by their feet. They suffered for five
>hours and after they were dead they still hung on posts for three days
>in the middle of the camp. It was enough for a worker not to look
>pleasantly enough at a German, not to greet him, to be immediately
>killed. Nevertheless, goaded on with whips and bullets, they went to
>their death, led their kin, their relations to be shot, did everything
>they were ordered to do. The Germans not only exterminated them, but
>also used them for their own amusement. They forced them to stage
>comical plays, they organized a large orchestra composed of prisoners
>waiting to die, which played every day some light music under the
>windows of the camp commander. They also staged amusements of a
>different sort. One day the commander declared that he wanted to be
>the guest at a wedding among the doomed prisoners. Right away a young
>woman was picked out among the laundry women and a groom was found
>among the workers. Both were dressed in appropriate fashion and
>ordered to go through the complete wedding ritual. The "newlyweds"
>were given a separate room. On the second day the commander of the
>camp declared that the newlyweds must of necessity leave for a
>"honeymoon trip". Escorted by the guards and the Germans and also the
>workers, the "groom" and the "bride" were brought to the "infirmary"
>and shot and then thrown into the fire. Meanwhile the Germans ordered
>the workers to shout "Happy Voyage"! and "See you soon!"
>
>Question: Name the figure for the number of people exterminated in the
>Treblinka death camp?
>
>Answer: During my stay in the "death camp", i.e. during the period
>from September 1942 to September 1943, no less than two million were
>exterminated there. Every day, with rare interruptions, two-three
>trainloads arrived to the camp, each one bringing in some 3,500-4,000
>doomed prisoners. On the average six to eight thousand were
>exterminated daily. How many were exterminated in this camp during its
>entire existence I do not know. [Transciption note: using this
>man's own figures, the figure of two million cannot be supported - his
>figures suggest 1.2 to 1.4 million, or about double the generally
>accepted death toll for Treblinka. knm. Aug. 5, 1994]

	Heres one of McVay's "Transcription Notes". McVay is pointing out
the witnesses claim of two million as opposed to his statement of
4,000 a day, times the year, 365 days, 1,400,000. Which figure, 1.2
million or 1.4 million is double the "generally accepted" death toll,
McVay doesn't say. The one figure floating around is 900,000. Half of
1.2 million would be 600,000 and for 1.4 million 700,000.
	What should one make out of this testimony. Is the witness prone
to exaggeration or even downright lieing? McVay doesn't seem to have a
transcription comment on this. Oh well, 2,000,000 isn't to far from
600,000, 700,000 or 900,000, the Leleko figures being just two to
three times the Holocaust story's figures, which conforms to the
general standard for Holocaust figures.  

>Question: What was the nationality of those who were exterminated?
>
>Answer: The crushing majority were of Jewish nationality. They were
>brought to the "death camp" from Germany, Poland, Bulgaria and France.

	But of course. The Holocaust story is 99.999% a Jewish story.

>Possibly from other countries also, but of this I do not know. Aside
>from Jews, several hundred Gypsies and Poles were exterminated there.

	Okay 600,000, 700,000, 900,000 or 2,000,000 minus several hundred
gives us more of a perspective on what Leleko means by a "crushing
majority" were Jewish.
>
>This testimony has been written down from my words correctly, has been
>read by me (signature) LELEKO

                       >Interrogation made by: Investigator of the
Fourth Department of the
>SMERCH Directorate of Counterintelligence of the Second Belorussian
>Front, Lietenant (signature) EPPEL'
>
>The Excerpt is true: First Deputy Procurator of the Crimean Region,
>Senior Councillor of Justice. (KUPTSOV)

	 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>        Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>        European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 07:52:25 PDT 1996
Article: 67570 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Some Holocaust Facts
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:32:20 GMT
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                             [repost]

	Anywhere from 600,000 to 4 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.

	The total number of people to have been exterminated by the Nazis
during the WWII period is 10 million, 11 million or 12 million.

	Although none have been found and identified, there are at least
15 mass grave sites where at least 10 thousand people and up to 40,000
and on to 2,000,000 were buried and/or cremated in each one.

	Regardless of whether or not the 46 identified incinerator
chambers at Auschwitz have barely the volume of a refrigerator, 200
people a day could be cremated in each one.

	Even though it takes modern day cremation facilities to cremate
one (1) body 1 1/2 to 2 hours, cremation ovens at Majdanek could
reduce four (4) bodies to charred bbone in ten minutes. 

	Sometimes the whole process was kept in secret, sometimes it
wasn't.

	There were 700,000, 800,000 or 900,000 Jews in Hungary before the
war. Somewhere between 200,000 and 400,000 were exterminated at
Auschwitz.

	Even though it was once said there were 700,000 Jews in France
before the war and the figure is now put at 70,000, the number of Jews
said to have been in Hungary and also found on the same list as the
700,000 French, the figure for the Hungarian Jews still stands.  

	Any eye witness accounts and testimony for the Holocaust story
supercede any against it.

	Any discrepancies or contradictions found in eyewitness
testimonies should not be looked on with suspicion. 

	Questioning the Holocaust story is an act of hate and those do
are "neo-Nazis" and "anti-Semitic".  

	Even though many revisions to the Holocaust story have taken
place, with many of the old accounts being generally recognized as
lies, any surviving accounts are to be accepted unconditionally.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 07:52:26 PDT 1996
Article: 67572 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: STUPID GERMANS
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:31:17 GMT
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	This is a list of various claims by the Holocaust story. As the
accounts suggest, some real wacky decisions and acts took place by the
Germans. If the following list of accounts are true then the Germans
were stupid. But then again, if the following statements are not true,
then whoever alleges them must be the stupid ones. Either way someone
has to take responsibility for the following.

I.
According to Brian Harmon's report presented to the group
under "Cyanide, Zyklon-B & Mass Murder" posted by Mc Vay, the Germans
built two of the crematoria gas chambers under ground so the SS could
get on the roof to pour in the Zyklon B.
	

II.
	According to the Holocaust story, instead of building chimneys
right in the immediate proximity of the furnaces for evacuation of the
flaming residue from raging coke fires, and availing of the long and
widely known principle of draft and chimney design, the Germans built
them 20 to 40 feet away so they would have to install underground
flues from furnace to chimney. Of course since heat rises this setup
would necessitate the need for some sort of mechanical assist like
heat resistant blowers to draw the smoke and hot ash first down into
the ground or cellar (take your pick), and then through the connecting
flue(s) to the chimney.

III.
	According to Holocaust facts, the Germans had murdered 2 million
at Treblinka, but not before they had buried hundreds of thousands
then realized they better dig them up and cremate them and then rebury
any remains. This same thing happened at Auschwitz. Now, whether the
Germans started to bury bodies at Auschwitz after they had already
started to dig them up at Treblinka would be contingent on Holocaust
dates.

IV.
	According to the Holocaust story, the Germans built
Crematorias II and III right at the end of the rail spur that went
into Birkenau. The buildings are said to have been located on each
side of the tracks about a hundred yards or so away. This would make
sense. By reducing the area the victims would have to cross there
would be less chance of the rest of the swarming camp from seeing what
was going on, even though the facilities were in plain sight according
to some Holocaust facts. 
	We can give the Germans credit for building the first two
right by the rail facility, but then it could have just been an
accidental quirk of luck, because they went on to build Crematorias IV
and V clear over on the other side of the camp, requiring transport
and/or marching the people by the thousands on a day by day regularity
all the way over from the rail facility, across the open fields, past
barracks and the bathhouse.
	
V.
Instead of incorporating the portals for the introduction of
the Zyklon B while constructing the specially built killing chambers,
the Germans first poured the concrete ceilings solid over a grid of
iron re-bar and then realized they had no way of getting the pellets
into the chamber. 

     (In all fairness, I must offer some dissent against any claims
the Germans were stupid, there could have been some reasons why they
went about it so ass backwards.)

                    _____________________
        
John Morris:
"There are any number of reasons why the holes would have been cut
after construction. Now, you may wish to believe that the Nazis
were stupid for not thinking of the holes while they were
constructing the gas chamber, but others of us are willing to
accept that they were reasonably good in practical matters."

"It could have been that the Nazis kept the homicidal purpose of
the chamber from the construction engineers."

	But then the Holocaust books like to play up how every one was
zealous for the tasks assigned to them. Especially with the latest
Goldhagen book and A.M.Rosenthal's escalation that 50,000,000 Germans
were involved.
                         ____________________

"It could have been an oversight."

	Okay, the Germans were stupid.
                         ____________________

"It could have been that they realized that throwing Zyklon B
through the door was not very effective."

	This makes sense. They built the chambers, and someone
said 'Heil, how will we put in the Zyklon B, we can't just throw it
through the door, what with all those people crammed in there. We
better cut some holes in the roof like we did at Krema I.	
                        _____________________

"It could have been that they realized that throwing Zyklon B
through the ceiling vent was not very effective."

	Yea, this certainly would have been a problem. You know,
having to push it along with some kind of ramming device through the
maze of ducting. 
                        _______________________

"I just gave five reasons. No doubt others could think of more
reasons, and no doubt you will object that I began each with the
phrase, 'it could have been'. But the absence of direct proof
about *why* the SS did things the way they did is not proof that
they did not do things."

	After all this we don't know who is stupid, but someone has to
take responsibility for the suggested reasons.
         

VI.
	As the Holocaust story has it, instead of using some kind of
gas directly for the much touted well planned, obsessive and foremost
Nazi goal of efficient extermination of millions of Jews, the Germans
opted to use pellets designed for gradual release that just happened
to be laying around for fumigation purposes. 

VII.
	According to the Holocaust story, the Germans had a obsessive
master plan to kill Jews, and the whole thing was planned to keep it
secret. Now how stupid can you get? They went on to carry it out, all
with long trains loaded with thousands of people coming into Birkenau
every day and lined up in the complex waiting to be unloaded, 4, 5, 6
belching chimneys going all day and all night, huge flaming pits out
in the fields, all right in the heart of a labor camp with a hundred
thousand prisoners, in the area of a large civilian population, where
a thousand of them worked at the camps every day and came in ready
contact with the workings of the camp and the camp population.

VIII.
	How stupid can you get. As the Holocaust story has it, the
Germans in their policy to keep the whole thing secret built the
buildings of mass extermination with large double windows running the
full length of the building on both sides that looked like a
recreation room at a Bavarian summer camp.

IX.
	According to the Holocaust story, Jamie McCarthy representing,
the Germans built the Crema II and III gas chambers underground to
keep the victims from knocking the walls down.
	Evidently the Germans finally figured out something else
when they built Cremas IV and V.

X.
	Wow. Now how stupid can you get. As the Holocaust story has
it, the Wannsee Conference was one at which the master plan for the
extermination of European Jews was declared. As it turns out, the
Germans made 30 copies of the proceedings and passed them out for
circulation throughout various ministries. Now is that any way to keep
a secret?  

XI.
	According to the Holocaust story: "The first gassing in
crematorium IV did not go well. An SS man, wearing a face mask, had to
climb a little ladder to get to a 'window,' then open it with one hand
and pour in the Zyklon B with the other. This acrobatic routine had to
be repeated six times." [2]

XII.
	According to the Leleko "interrogation", posted by McVay under
"Holocaust Almanac: Killing System - Leleko 2", the Germans allowed
the prisoners bound for instant death at Treblinka to carry razors and
knives.
	The same testimony expounds how all the people on a day by day
arrival knew right away they were headed for death and there was
always wild mayhem, but nevertheless, the Germans let them bring
knives and razors.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 07:52:27 PDT 1996
Article: 67579 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 16:31:30 GMT
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	The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
"eyewitness" accounts of what they saw.

	UFO stories are largely based on "eyewitness" accounts of what
they saw.

	The Holocaust story is supported by survivor testimony.

	UFO stories now number over hundreds of survivor accounts of
being taken on board a alien spacecraft and subjected to medical
experiments.

	The Holocaust story relies on physical evidence, such as a door
>from  a gas chamber, some brick ovens in a Holocaust museum, a pile of
shoes or an empty can of Zyklon B.

	UFO stories pose physical evidence also, like a wound someone
says they got from a ordeal encounter with aliens' a piece of metal
said to come from a UFO crash and even the Great Pyramides of Egypt.

	The Holocaust presents some photos, such as a ruin said to have
been a gas chamber, or people standing by rail cars and said to be
undergoing selection for gas chambers. 

	UFO stories include photos of aliens, circles in farmers fields
as proof of alien landing and photos of rock formations on Mars said
to be ruins of a past civilization.

	The Holocaust has had many of it's claims exposed as lies, such
as Auschwitz numbers, gas through shower heads and soap made of human
fat.

	UFO stories have had many of their claims exposed as being lies,
such as the two farmers who confessed to pulling off the hoax of a
landing site in their fields.

	Interesting.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 10:02:01 PDT 1996
Article: 67646 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What? No rabbis?
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:01:18 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Posted by Mr.Keren, under "Priests murdered in Dachau".
>#
># What does Mr.Keren care about priests? He doesn't.
>
>Of course I do. It's Tom Moran who apparently doesn't 
>care about anyone but his heroes, the Nazis; this is 
>probably why he finds it appropriate to joke about the 
>priests they murdered in Dachau. I don't see anything
>funny about Nazis murdering priests.
>-Danny Keren.

	Okay, I'll take your word for it. 

	Now how about, "What? No rabbis?




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 10:02:02 PDT 1996
Article: 67647 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Why Moran Even Responds At All
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:44:54 GMT
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	As Moran sees it, the only reason to be out here is to expose the
extortional Holocaust story as a lie. Sort of like a patriotic duty, a
concern for the world.
	But posting stuff out here is like being a gardner who is trying
to grow something and has to go out and pull some weeds once in
awhile. 
	This is the only reason why Moran even responds at all. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 10:02:03 PDT 1996
Article: 67650 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 99% of the story, 99% wacked out
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:25:20 GMT
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <324162a6.1655714@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>	
>>	As becomes evident on studying the validity of the Holocaust
>>story, 99% of it is told by eyewitness testimony.
>
>    That is untrue.  Feel free to make me look like a fool by showing your
>    work as to how you arrived at the 99% figure.  I'll bet you a $100
>    donation to the IHR that you can't put together a logical defense of
>    the 99% figure which withstands critique.
>
>>	When reviewing eyewitness accounts, it becomes evident that 99%
>>of these testimonies are wacked out. 
>
>    That is untrue.  Feel free to make me look like a fool by showing your
>    work as to how you arrived at the 99% figure.  I'll bet you a $100
>    donation to the IHR that you can't put together a logical defense of
>    the 99% figure which withstands critique.

	Well, I guess we could just look at whatever Yad Vashim, the
Israeli super repository of Holocaust facts has. They have 20,000 eye
witness accounts. Now we could see how many documents, photographs or
anything else they have, find the ratio, and we're there. And then
there is the Spielberg project out to interview 50,000 "survivors".
When this is all done it will be more like 99.99999%.

	Do you have anything to say about the other 99% of the post?

>     daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 10:02:04 PDT 1996
Article: 67652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust tyranny
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:26:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <32453e61.2942606@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32415e43.532827@news.pacificnet.net> <3241a7b2.9725794@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <3242a684.1220543@news.pacificnet.net> <32439e54.17851707@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>	As to the rest of Mr.Morris' quite academic 185 line attempt, I
>>merely cite "Brevity is the spice of life". Author unknown at this
>>time. Name of author not necessary, nor his history, to make the quote
>>right or wrong. 
>
>"Brevity is the soul of wit."
>            Polonius to Claudius, _Hamlet_, II.ii.
>
>You are nearly as witty as Polonius, by the way.
>
>You'll get the joke when you understand the context.
>
>>	The anti-totalitarian Holocaust statement again,
>
>> "Liberty of speech, inviteth and provoketh liberty to be used again,
>>and so bringeth much to a man's knowledge." 
>
>Francis Bacon wrote on the Holocaust? Did he use a time machine?
>
>>	"A rose is a rose is a rose, and by any other name would smell
>>just as sweet."
>
>"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
>By any other word would smell as sweet."
>            Juliet to Romeo, _Romeo and Juliet_, II.i.
>
>Juliet is tragically wrong in this statement.
>
>And you are mixing up Shakespeare and Gertrude Stein. An easy error to
>make. I forgive you.
>
>John Morris          
>at University of Alberta          
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/

	What's the story, did they catch up with you already at that new
job you went off to a couple of months ago?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 10:02:04 PDT 1996
Article: 67654 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 99% of the story, 99% wacked out
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:43:29 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <32453447.357232@news.pacificnet.net>
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ellegon@ibm.net (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <324162a6.1655714@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:

	Mr.Rosenberg making comment on the introduction.

Moran:
     Posted here are a few comments released by Ingrid Rimland.

Mr.Rosenberg:
	Well, there's your problem right there.

Moran:
	Stuff in ( ) is Moran's commentary.     

Mr.Rosenberg:
	And that just compounds it. 


	Of course it is quite obvious Mr.Rosenberg opted, shied, slunk,
even fled away from taking a shot at responding to the "problem" in
stead of just saying there is one. The real problem is that the
"problem" Mr.Rosenberg is referring to is too much of a problem for
him to respond to directly.  
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 10:43:34 PDT 1996
Article: 67657 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran on Writing Stlye (was Re: The Mayer Gambit still won't fly)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:41:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <32453354.114024@news.pacificnet.net>
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Marty Kelley  wrote:

>I'm trying to figure out another little quirk of Tom Moran's Rules of
>Discourse:  In a recent post, <3240bd99.44254665@news.pacificnet.net>
>Mr. Moran proclaimed, "Stressing something with capitalizations
>is really in bad taste, and does absolutely nothing to effect the
>legitimacy of anything."
>
>He also got rather testy with me for emphasizing eight words out of a
>twelve-screen discussion of his lies about Deborah Lipstadt's 11/08/93
>letter to the editor of the _New York Times_ (see the thread "Tom Moran
>Can't Read (again!)," message ID <3240bda6.44267133@news.pacificnet.net>).
>
>And yet, in his initial (and demonstrably erroneous) discussion of
>Lipstadt's letter, Mr. Moran wrote this:
>
>   Anyway, the gist of her mentality and criteria for historical
>   accuracy lies in her statement "They argue Pressac's book is
>   superfluous; the tears of the survivors should be sufficient proof."
>   
>   Let me reiterate Deborah's terse statement on historical
>   accounting;
>
>   "...; THE TEARS OF THE SURVIVORS SHOULD BE SUFFICIENT PROOF".
>
>Now, am I very much mistaken, or is Mr. Moran putting text in all caps to
>emphasize it?  So it's a bad thing when someone else does it, but a good
>thing when he does it?  

	Did I do that? Well you have to screw up once in an eon. Thanks
for calling my attention to the one example. And then this is from 6,7
months ago, from which time I recognized the unaesthetic nature of
accentuating a phrase. I never did get into stressing single words.

	I thought I had cured you all of stressing words, way back when I
posted "Holocausterclonisms". Remember? Then I started to keep a tally
of how many times the little practices were committed, "The Tally Thus
Far". Here you are back regressing.

	I'll accept your abstract admission that stressing the little
words is not all that nice.

	You will probably find it more difficult to write for a while,
perhaps for a ever. Just when you get to a word and you want to stress
it, you will just have to leave it in it's own reality. You might feel
a little uncomfortable with the results, but then if something is
written with honesty and substance, integrity, meaningful in the very
words, then there should be no problem. 
		   

>Gosh, I'm soooo confused by all of Mr. Moran's complex sylistic rules.
>Then again, I'm just a simple writing teacher who doesn't know all the
>unusual semantic implications of semicolons that Mr. Moran seems to have
>discovered.

	I like the self designation, "simple teacher". Don't take me
wrong, I recognize the tone of the sentence. It's a reverse sarcasm.
It means, 'I'm a writing teacher, and I should know about punctuation
marks'. 
	We can accept there are thousands of teachers in the world that
know the rules of punctuation marks, and I can recognize your one of
those teachers and you know about punctuation marks. 

	Of course we have to recognize that punctuation is not the key to
writing. What percentage of writing would you say the importance of
punctuation is?    

>--------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)   
>
>"The level of discourse in campaigns is so low, we really may 
>as well get in a tub of Jello and wrestle."
>   --Rep. Patricia Schroeder, on Comedy Central's "Politically Incorrect"
>
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 10:43:35 PDT 1996
Article: 67658 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:18:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <32453b52.2159486@news.pacificnet.net>
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># Maybe Mr.Keren would like to say how the
># numbers on this list were killed?

>Are you suggesting that, if no mass gassing took place
>in this camp, it was impossible to kill these people?

	Where do I even remotely "suggest" your evasion? I said "how". 

>How many people do you claim Stalin's regime killed,
>without using gas chambers?

	Where soes Stalin fit in? Another childish evasion by steering
off into a irrelavant direction.

	"How" Mr.Keren. 

>You're *really* an odd person, zeyde.

	"How" were the priests killed Mr.Keren?

>-Danny Keren




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 10:43:36 PDT 1996
Article: 67666 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran the Bigot
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:56:36 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  	I don't "wonder" why you ("we") call me "anti-Semite".
>>  It's because you can't come up with anything else.
>
>    Actually, your articles are rebutted on a fairly regualr basis, but you
>    seem to have a policy of ignoring those rebuttals.  So, in fact, we are
>    [1] rebutting most everything significant you say, and [2] calling you
>    a liar, a fool, and - yes - an anti-semite.
>
>    Since you have no desire to defend your anti-semitic ravings in debate,
>    what are you going to do about all this?

	Wherzat?

>     daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 23:09:02 PDT 1996
Article: 67754 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: First the sister, then the mom and pop, and now the wife
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:42:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
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	Generally Moran doesn't bother clicking up anything under
Mr.Edeiken's name, usually just marking it 'read', leaving it just for
the record.
	Then Moran had the urge to look at something ridiculous and
immediately thought of Mr.Edeiken's stuff.
	Mr.Edeiken is sort of like a snarling little trapped weasel with
all of his posts and you can never trust what he might say.
	As soon as Moran saw Mr.Edeiken's name under the post topic, he
thought to himself, 'That dirty rat. What could this rat be having to
say under this report of the Holocaust dependents and supporters
attack on my dear, beloved, dedicated, wholesome family'.
	Moran hesitated before moving to click up Mr.Edeiken's message.
He thought to himself, 'Could this dirty rat be so dirty as to ...' 
Moran slid the arrow up to the messagers name. As Moran pressed down
on the mouse, he thought to himself, 'This dirty rat better not have
said anything nasty about my dog'.
	
	It's best it never came to that, yet.

	



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 22 23:09:03 PDT 1996
Article: 67774 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:43:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <32453474.401501@news.pacificnet.net>
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ellegon@ibm.net (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <323d56a3.529971@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>
>
>>        If the "claims" of the revisionist are "utter nonsense" then one
>>should think she would take up the challenge and expose the utter
>>nonsense. "Utter nonsense" seems like something that should be easy to
>>deal with and expose as such.
>
>Depends what you mean by "easy."  It's certainly been done quite handily, over 
>and over, by the amateur historians involved with Nizkor.  But, as you can see 
>from the Nizkor site, it often does take a rather lengthy discussion to 
>demonstrate a given fallacy or deception of the deniers.  
>
>It's also something that the preferred setting of the deniers -- a tv talkshow 
>where they can flog their wares -- is manifestly unsuited for, for obvious 
>reasons.
>
>But, sure, it's done here all the time.  
>
>Please feel free to begin, by stating in detail, your reasons for believing 
>that the Holocaust never happened, your theory as to what did really 
>happen, and what evidence you choose to put forth to substantiate those 
>bizarre assertions. 
>
>We can do this again.   It's okay.

	I post my side of the story out here on a regular basis, new
posts and the dreaded reposts. You follow, then respond. You can start
by going back over to "99% of the story, 99% wacked out". There you
already did your little boy thing and now it's time for you try it
'like a man'. 

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 07:46:08 PDT 1996
Article: 67903 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Desert Tommy
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 12:48:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Message-ID: <324534cd.491029@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32305a55.1552180@news.pacificnet.net> <3230a829.4239660@news.pacificnet.net> <50snum$3ci@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <323421eb.1869482@news.pacificnet.net> <511d55$t45@lendl.cc.emory.edu> 
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joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:

>In article <511d55$t45@lendl.cc.emory.edu> libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes:
>
>
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>>:       Show where I said, "too big for human hands". "Too big" You mean
>>: I said it couldn't be held? Show it. 
>
>>God, Tommy--it was only three days ago.
>
>
>>>Subject:      Desert Ostrich
>>>From:         tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
>>>Date:         1996/09/06
>>>Message-Id:   <3230368a.2166571@news.pacificnet.net>
>>>Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
>>>Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
>
>>
>
>>>    Then there is the "Desert Eagle". This is a semi-automatic hand
>>>gun that can come in a .357 model or 44 caliber.  Therefore, in
>>>relation to a size/caliber ratio, such as exemplified in comparing a
>>>22 caliber to a 9mm semi-automatic, everything must be proportionally
>>>larger, the hand grip, the frame and the barrel. This makes it so big
>>>and cumbersome that it would only suit some species that may be from
>>>the Land Of The Giants, Goliath's homeland, and not suitable for real
>>>human beings.
>

	The only reason I am going to deal with this is so I have record
of it in my outbox.


>Tommy is kind of amazing, isn't he?  
>
>(He's also wrong; by the way, about the proportionality stuff -- while a .45 
>auto fires a round with roughly twice the diameter and rather more than four 
>times the mass of a .22 round, the hand grip isn't even twice the size of the 
>typical .22's handgrip.

	Rosenberg tries to evade by over talking and going off into an
unnecessary subject. The only thing that would play a role in any
limiting hand grip size is the caliber, the stuff about its mass
having nothing to do with it. When it comes to comparing a .22 to a
9mm say, the twenty two would have its hand grip made intentionally
bigger than what the size would be if the design was kept as small as
the caliber would permit. The 9mm would be more restricting in the
latitude it would afford for size. The Desert Ostrich has no such
latitude. It must be designed with keeping the size down. 
There is no latitude, and the grip is larger that would be desirable
if they had the option.   

>  Ergonomics has a lot more to do with grip size than 
>moranic physics.

	Technically we might say "Ergonomics" is a term that could be
applied to pistol grip design, but it's application is more well
suited for describing cameras or hand held radios and the like.
Any "ergonomic" design would be totally regulated by the needs of the
device and the technology involved and in the case of the Desert
Ostrich it would be ruled by the size of the rounds and the ensuing
clip and housing. The Desert Ostrich soes not have a grip design that
would be considered "ergonomic".
 
>  Matter of fact, the grip of my own .22 is about the same 
>size as the grip of a typical single-stack .9mm auto.)

	Exactly. That is because if the handle size was made totally on
what the .22 would permit, it would be too small.
>
>By his logic, of course -- such as it is -- nobody but giants would ever be 
>able to use .357s or .44s, while in fact .357 is the single most common 
>revolver caliber for police (and the round is, despite what one would think, 
>only slightly longer but exactly the same diameter as a .38 Special round). 

	Now here he has gone off to revolvers, of which there are no
limiting factors to grip size regulated by round size. It is a totally
wayward diversion that has nothing to do with the discussion which is
the regulating factors of pistol grip size on semi-automatic weapons
that have the ammo stored in the hand grip.

> And .44 is roughly the same size as a .45, and both those rounds have been 
>around, and used by normal folks who aren't giants, well, for a long, long 
>time, going back to before the Colt Peacemaker.

	There's another out of breath diversion that has nothing to do
with the subject. I wonder if Mr.Rosenberg has to take oxygen when he
writes. 

>Which wasn't used by giants, either, Tommy Moran.
>
>Conclusion:  Tommy's an idiot.
I love this kind of finale. It expresses the person's lack of
confidence in the attempt itself. 
	

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN%3D0380973227/joelrosenbergA/
>...and for the last bit of geekitry:  to receive the latest version of my FAQ, 
>send me a message with the phrase "your FAQ" anywhere in the subject line.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 07:46:09 PDT 1996
Article: 67959 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prior Warnings
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:11:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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References: <51u7tt$8ic@lex.zippo.com>
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ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter) wrote:

>I am trying to get an understanding of when the POW's discovered
>their fate was death.  The source for  this post is the book
>SHOAH An Oral History Of The Holocaust - The Complete Text Of
>The Film By Claude Lanzmann.  The questions are by Lanzmann and 
>the responses are by the indicated witnesses.

	When and/or if the Jews knew about their fate all depends on the
eyewitness testimony. It also has a lot to do with what carries that
particular account.
	Holocaust story has it that sometimes it was all kept in secret,
sometimes it wasn't. It all depends on what point their trying to
make. 

Examples:
	If they are indicting the town folks for there inaction then it
was no secret. If they strive to show U.S. and others complicity, then
it was no secret.	
	If they are trying to explain why there are no records to show a
plan, then it was a big secret. 

	It all depends.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 07:46:10 PDT 1996
Article: 67972 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 99% of the story, 99% wacked out
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:04:09 GMT
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amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:

>In article <32453447.357232@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>ellegon@ibm.net (Joel Rosenberg) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <324162a6.1655714@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>> moran) writes:
>>
>>        Mr.Rosenberg making comment on the introduction.
>>
>>Moran:
>>     Posted here are a few comments released by Ingrid Rimland.
>>
>>Mr.Rosenberg:
>>        Well, there's your problem right there.
>>
>>Moran:
>>        Stuff in ( ) is Moran's commentary.     
>>
>>Mr.Rosenberg:
>>        And that just compounds it. 

	This, above, is the full exchange. 

>>
>>        Of course it is quite obvious Mr.Rosenberg opted, shied, slunk,
>>even fled away from taking a shot at responding to the "problem" in
>>stead of just saying there is one. The real problem is that the
>>"problem" Mr.Rosenberg is referring to is too much of a problem for
>>him to respond to directly.  


This is what Matthews says:      
>Of course, without what Mr. Rosenberg and you actually said being presented 
>for all of us to read it is difficult to tell whether or not you're correct in 
>your criticism.  However, given the overall patterns I see in Mr. Rosenberg's 
>and your posts I highly doubt it.
>
>Chances are that when you make an assertion, Moron, you are either wrong, 
>lying or both.  
>
>allan

        
>
>=================================================
>            amatthews@cybercom.net
>=================================================
>A monk asked Un Mun, "What is Buddha?"          
>Un Mun replied, "Dry shit on a stick."           
>=================================================
>http://www.cybercom.net/~amatthews/amatthews.html
>=================================================



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 07:46:11 PDT 1996
Article: 67975 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:04:26 GMT
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Lines: 11
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	Wait a minute!  Quite a bit of it goes to us duped, lackey of the
Jews schmucks, Tommie.  You oughta see my yacht.  Yeehah!  Mind you,
the decoder ring could use some updating, but what the hey? 

DTTS rules!

Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 07:46:11 PDT 1996
Article: 67976 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:04:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <32468ad1.2650021@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <323e9986.503827@news.pacificnet.net><323e9986.503827@news.pacificnet.net> <51mngt$c22@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <521k01$1ds8@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In message <51mngt$c22@lendl.cc.emory.edu> - libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu
>(william c anderson)17 Sep 1996 17:35:25 GMT writes:
>:>
>:>Good stuff, Ken.  
>:>
>:>Does anybody have any idea why the Moron does this?  Does he really
>:>think it helps his case to repost article that make him look foolish?

	Moran's reposting of some of Mr."McFee's" finest stuff brings on
an attack by "Mr.McFee" saying it makes Moran look foolish.

>:>Any insight into the Moranian mind?
>
>How can one have insight into that which is but an illusion?
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 13:03:22 PDT 1996
Article: 68007 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:04:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	No, he hasn't the slightest idea that he has just announced that
he is an antisemitic idiot.

Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 13:03:23 PDT 1996
Article: 68019 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran in the Headlines
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:30:12 GMT
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	This is a repost of an article Moran put out for the service of
the viewers about 6, 7 months ago. Recently there has been a couple
more, and Moran likes to keep things updated.

	For anyone who would like to have a look at an example of what
you might find under these titles, the latest, "Li'l Tommy in the
sandpit" by a Derek Bell has been attached below.

	You can almost hear 'goo goo, ga, ga' when you read it. You can
almost hear little giggles.

	

   The Best Damn Alt.Revisionism Clone Titles You'll Ever See.	
_____________________________________________________________________________________

	"Just what is Moran talking about?"

	"Translating Mr. Moran"

	"Just What Language is Moran Speaking"

	"Tom Moran: Is English His Native Language"

	"Some "explicits" Mr. Moran"

	"Mr. Moran's blatant forgeries"

	"Tom Moran's reality list"

	"Mr. Moran can't even keep a thread straight"

	"Moran-Geologist at large"

	"Mr. Moran gets one right"

	"Mr. Moran's attention deficit disorder"

	"Moran - hypocrite at large"

	"A lesson for Mr. Moran"

	"Mr. Moran gets one right again"
	
	"Tom Moran, Shakespeare scholar"

	"Moran. Where are you Granite Boy?"

	"The statistically invalid Moran Poll"

	"The Trial of Tom Moran"	

	"Moran, Moran, Moran, Lost your nerve?"

	"Tom Moran, attorney at law"

	"Tom Moran white feathers"

	"To Err Is Moran"
	
	"A MORANIC BURST OF HONESTY" 
	
	"Tommy the skolar"

	"Tom Moran lies about Schindler's List"

	"Moran's ignorance makes him look stupid"

	"A message for Moran"

	"Moran, the gutless wonder"

	"How does Moran run and hide"

	"Will Moran set the record straight?"

	"Moran lies again"

	"Moran weasels again"

	"Tom "Revisionist scientist" Moran"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

	The latest:

	"Li'l Tommy in the sandpit"
     
	By a Derek Bell,
     ================

     "Hi, Li'l Tommy, whatcha do'in?"

	"Hi, I'm making a sand-castles."

	"Don't you mean a sand-castle?"

	"No, it's a sand-castles!"

	"You're an idiot!"

	"No, I'm an idiots!!"

	"You mustn't have done your homework properly, it's _idiot_."

	"I did my homeworks properly, but I was told in the classrooms by
my teachers that it was wrong."

	"What did your teachers say?"

	"My teachers told me to do it again, but I won't!"

	"How many teachers did you say you had?"

	"I have only one teachers. Now let me get on with my
sand-castles,
I want to finish it before dinners!"

	Derek

Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW:
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
	"Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson
=======================================================================

	So there we have an ideal example of what was behind all the
other Moran in the headlines.




From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 13:03:24 PDT 1996
Article: 68050 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran/Nizkor Website, coming up.
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 02:37:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Recently Moran has posted "Moran's Index" listing most of his
post to alt.revisionism. 

	Evidently Mr.Mittleman has picked up on a couple of lines in the
intro and has invited Moran to compile a list in any way he wants, and
Nizkor will carry them in the format of his choosing.

Danny Mittleman:
    "It is a lot of work to prepare and maintain the archives at
Nizkor, Tommy.  And all that Nizkor has are voluntter workers.
However, if you would like to put together your own dossier for
Nizkor, I am certain that Ken would be happy to include it.  Feel free
to assemble your own writings in any way you deem to be "straight
forward".  Put it together in either ascii or html.  Send it to Ken or
send it to me and it will get placed in the permanent archives."
=======================================================================

	Offer so far:
     
	"Put together your own dossier ..."
 
	"Feel free to assemble your writings in any way you deem to be
'straight foward'.

	"...either in ascii or html ..."

	" ... will get placed in permanent archives".
=====================================================================
		
	Moran is estatic. Moran has always wanted to take over Nizkor for
his own little website. Now it looks like his dreams are coming true.

Like a Trojan Horse, a website within a website. Truth against
fiction, eye to eye.

	Before we proceed, if there are any objections to Mr.Mittleman's
induced blurt, let them sign on now.

	If there is no objection Moran will still need a statement, by
McVay, "Director" of Nizkor, agreeing to Mr.Mittleman's blurt,
including the particulars of the offer, so far, as put forth by
Mr.Mittleman.

	Any discussion of what format and presentation will be accepted
will have to take place out here, in the open. 
                                                      Tom Moran	 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 13:03:25 PDT 1996
Article: 68051 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:03:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 85
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mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	Dachau isn't on the list of extermination camps anymore like it
>>was years ago. There seems to be enough information available to show
>>there were no gas chambers. Maybe Mr.Keren would like to say how the
>>numbers on this list were killed? 
>
>In Dachau they were probably worked to death, starved, shot, injected,
>or dies because of the filthy conditions from typhus. Some even died
>from medical experiments. Those are my immediate guesses. But lets
>check out the info about Dachau.
>
>Dachau was one of the first concentration camps within Germany and was
>founded in 1933, Mr. Moran. It initial use was to inern and
>"reeducate" Communists and others who had the temerity to oppose
>Hitler. However, after Kristallnach in 1938 more than 13,000 Jews were
>sent there and tortured far more than the poltical prisoners. Most of
>these Jews were released. Of course they had to hand over property and
>money to the SS along with a pledge to immigrate. Still 700 of these
>Jews died. Those who couldn't pay the price and survived would
>eventually go to the extermination camps you mentioned above. There
>they would perish. 

	We take note as we go along the question is "How were the priests
killed"? We take note of Mr. Curtis' irrelavant diversion about Jews.
Jews the ones who are totally absent from the list under discussion.
 
>"Dachau, the name meant to strike terror in the minds of those who
>considered opposing the Nazis, found its reputation changing during
>the war. Much like Buchenwald, esecially in the grapevine of the camp
>prisoners themselves, it came to be considered a mild camp. Actually,
>it was probably even more benign than Buchenwald, for Dachau's work
>details were usually less demanding than the quarry work and tunnel
>building expected of Kommandos around Weimar. Not that Dachau was a
>gentle place. Hunger, disease, hard labor, and death were everday
>affairs. The SS used the camp as a site for hangings and firing
>squads, and even built a gas chamber on the premises. Nazi doctors
>also made Dachau a center for medical experiments, using men, women,
>and children prisonersto test products and techniques for German
>manufacturers and the German military. [Now pay attention here Moran.]
>For instance, a Doctor Schilling infected about 1100 prisoners, many
>of them Polish priests, with malaria in order to observe malarial
>behavior and try out cures. . . .
>
>The conditions got worse later one when by the end of 1941 it became a
>"hub for the shipment of slave workers." "In November 1942, . . ., a
>trainload of 900 laborers transferred from Mauthausen experienced such
>misery on the train that most of them died within a few days after
>arriving at Dachau. In that same month a transport from Danzig arrived
>with three hundred dead, mostly victims of exposure and starvation.
>The survivors soon died as well. Near the end of the war a train from
>Buchenwald estimated to be carrying 5000 prisoners arrived with only
>1200 survivors. Some were so thirsty that they drank water
>continuously and died as a result."
>
>". . .But in the last months of the war, with supply lines endangered,
>and the arrival of ever increasing trainloads of disease-ridden
>prisoners, the camp began its inevitable slide into uncontrolled death
>and decay. . . .Dachau was in reality [by this time], two camps. There
>remained a sizable contigent of its older population, healthy enough
>to work and even organize themselves. But all around them lay dead and
>dying human cargo from other camps, the telling remains of slave labor
>and extermination efforts of the concentration camp system as a whole.
>The crematoria worked overtime, mass burial sites were opened to deal
>with the overflow, but there seemed no end to the transports and to
>wholesale death."

	Again, how were the priests killed? 

>(_Inside the Vicious Heart: Americans and the Liberation of Nazi
>Concentration Camps_, by Robert H. Abzug, Oxford, 1985)

	Reference to a book is nothing.	

>Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>
>For More Information try The Nizkor Project
>Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 14:08:13 PDT 1996
Article: 68083 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Moran Even Responds At All
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:35:55 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <324578e9.1013476@news.pacificnet.net>
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>  	
>>  	As Moran sees it, the only reason to be out here is to expose the
>>  extortional Holocaust story as a lie. Sort of like a patriotic duty, a
>>  concern for the world.
>>  	But posting stuff out here is like being a gardner who is trying
>>  to grow something and has to go out and pull some weeds once in
>>  awhile. 
>>  	This is the only reason why Moran even responds at all. 
>
>	So much for Moran's claim that he is in favor of open debate.
>
>	The real reason is, of course, that every time Moran has attempted to 
>defend his statements it has become obvious that he is a dishonest and  illiterate 
>dolt motivated by a virulent strain of anti-Semitism.
>
>	He does not contest that.
>
>	--YFE

	Wherzat?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 14:08:13 PDT 1996
Article: 68084 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 17:43:03 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 24
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mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	I wonder if Mr.Keren has anything else to offer here. Does he
>>have a reason why so many Polish priests would have been killed. So he
>>won't waste anytime on anything else, we can take note that 900 of
>>them went free.
>
>Why were they killed? I believe the reason that the Nazis gave is that
>tey were in leadership positions. Another thing about priests, Mr.
>Moran, is that they were a part of the educated and intelligencia.
>This was another group of Poles that the Nazi thought of as
>expendable.
>
>For those who are interested, Mr. Keren posted the data below.

	The fact is, Mr.Keren posted nothing to confirm your personal
statement. Your personal notion of why so many Polish priests are
listed as supposedly being killed? 
	What is your personal reason why the Germans took the Polish
priests to Germany instead of to one of the camps in Poland?
	What is your personal reason why there are no rabbis mentioned on
the list?


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 23 17:16:46 PDT 1996
Article: 68125 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More on Zyklon B
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 13:05:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <32453937.1620397@news.pacificnet.net>
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rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <51u8cm$8ou@lex.zippo.com>,
>Chris Carpenter  wrote:
>>I have a question regarding  Zyklon B.  
>>On page 566 of Hilberg's 1961 edition of THE DESTRUCTION OF  
>>EUROPEAN JEWRY it states:  
>>	. . . . In the gas chamber the material immediately passed
>>	into the gaseous state.
>>
>> Page 138 of THE WORLD MUST KNOW  shows a picture of a Zyklon B
>>canister from A/B and pellets from Majdanek.
>>I understand that Zyklon B deteriorated in the container after a
>>number of months.
>>Did this leave the pellets intact but in an inert condition as
>>depicted in the picture?  
>
>The pellets would certainly remain intact.  Whether they would be
>completely inert after a number of months is questionable.  I wouldn't
>open up a can in a small enclosed space even if it had passed its
>expiration date.

	They have a sample at the Auschwitz Museum that still shows
traces of HCN, isn't that right Mr.Green? Cracow Report.

>>Did the pellets retain the blue color after gas release?
>>This must have been covered but I don't remember reading it.
>
>If you find the answer to this question please let me know.  Let me know
>your source too, please.
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green                           Dept. of Chemistry
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                     Stanford University     
>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud   Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>"Remember the days of yore,
>"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>       -Deuteronomy 32:7



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 07:37:56 PDT 1996
Article: 68277 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:04:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 7
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	No, Agent Mittleman.  That is an Unternibling.  Sheesh!

Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 07:37:57 PDT 1996
Article: 68286 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 13:04:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 8
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	Control yourself, Derek.  Now if someone would just tell us what
a "Moran" is.

Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 08:37:17 PDT 1996
Article: 68327 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:55:51 GMT
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                     L.A. Times 5/9/96

           "Bingo King Aids Israeli Right Wing"

Dr. Irving Moskowitz "says he is merely doing the '"natural thing for
a Jew"'.

	He is cited as an orthodox Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
Holocaust. 

	Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
at it.

	Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why "the
natural thing" is to just blurt out a gross fabrication. 

	Who knows how the interview took place. But it is evident the
Holocaust came up. Ah yes, the Holocaust defense.

	This article incited an alt.revisionism regular to claim he had
lost 160 relatives in the Holocaust. After considerable goading to get
him to post the proof, he "retracted" the claim.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 08:37:18 PDT 1996
Article: 68328 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: 4,000,000 less 3,000,000 still leaves 6,000,000
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:56:26 GMT
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	 At one time, the figures for those said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz was 4 million, which at this time the
current number is 1 million. At least 95% of this current number are
said to have been Jews. The overall number of Jews said to have fallen
to the Holocaust has been 6,000,000 for some time. Six million when
the Auschwitz numbers were 4 million and still 6,000,000 with the
Auschwitz numbers at 1 million.
	It is alleged that the 6 million figure was never contingent on
the now defunct 4 million figure.
	Whatever, for the time being, if we now have numbers at Auschwitz
given as 1 million, and at least 95% of them are Jewish, we can see
that strange coincidences have taken place. A mathematical wonder.
Probablilities of astronomical proportions being over come. It just so
happens that the other 3,000,000 now deleted from the story were not
Jewish and that 95% of the 1 million remaining, were Jewish, leaving
the existing overall number of Jews said to have died still at
6,000,000. 
	Now that is real good luck for those who are so adamant and
fanatical on preserving and bellowing the 6 million number.
	It would certaintly 'raise some eyebrows' if the guardians of the
6 million had to start using a number like, say, 3 million Jews. I
mean 3 million instead of 6 million would be no little 'spit in the
ocean'. What, with a discrepancy like that in their heads, the masses
would most definitely start to 'look side ways' at the new number, and
a little 'on down the road' any wide scale acceptance for the story
would 'fall by the wayside'.					 
	No wonder there is so much fanaticism in defending the current 6
million. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 08:37:19 PDT 1996
Article: 68329 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:57:09 GMT
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	Seems the Holocaust story uses the records from the manufacturer
of Zyklon B to show that Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz. Seems some
of these records are missing. Whole years worth.
 			      	
    	Now who did it?
 
	Three main suspects. The Germans to cover up. Beneficiaries of
the Holocaust. Or revisionist types out to discredit the story.
	We might suspect a gradual rise in shipments to Auschwitz in
relation to the increasing population once it was set up which shown
graphically would be represented by a more of less straight line
rising steadily.
	What the records could show in addition to and in relation to the
existing records is that a sharp increase in orders took place around
the years the mass exterminations were said to have been at maximum
use, which could suggest it was for the extermination process.
Definitely, if this was the case this would be evidence for the
Holocaust story. This would direct the suspicious eye at Germans as
the thieves out to cover up or any revisionist type that would be out
to discredit the story. 
	
	On the other hand if the records were pretty consistent, showing
maybe an increase around the time of the epidemic of Typhus but not
for the high extermination period, this would be evidence for the
revisionist and the suspicious eye could turn to the beneficiaries and
perpetuators of the Holocaust story.
	
	But why would anyone only steal some of the records and not all
of them? Certainly, if they had the access and opportunity to steal
the number said, we could suppose they could have taken them all, but
some were left behind. Possibly someone wanted to make sure there was
some record, at least, to show Zyklon B was shipped to Auschwitz and
took the rest of the records so no overall record existed for
comparison.




From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 08:37:20 PDT 1996
Article: 68331 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Pressac, yes?  Pressac, no?  It all depends?
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:55:01 GMT
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	I imagine that a number of people out here have seen the name of
Pressac mustered up now and then as an Holocaust authority, and even
with a certain regularity as of recently.  As it turns out, Nizkor has
a bio on him and his work under;  Web Crawler(say)>Nizkor>Nizkor Home
Page>Shofar FTP Archives>pub>camps>Auschwitz>Pressac. I believe most
people will be able to find Pressac by following this simple path, but
for all those who have expressed the need for URLs to get around
Nizkor, including the webmaster and co-webmasters of Nizkor itself,
they will just have to remain in the dark.
	
            A critique of Nizkors bio on the life and works of
                          Jean-Claude Pressac.

	"Jean-Claude Pressac is known as a reliable, unassuming
pharmacist ..." in his small village, begins the Nizkor bio.
	He has been "revealed as a respected, if not amateur, historian
on the Holocaust", Nizkor continues, followed by, "The unusual story
of how Pressac became an expert on the Nazi wartime slaughter of
European Jewry...". So, only two paragraphs into the file we have
Pressac posed as an amateur expert.
	After a little treatment on revisionists, the first of a number
of times, Nizkor copy continues "Pressac has never had any
professional training as an historian" soon followed by "Pressac's
scientific background, particularly in chemistry, stood him in good
stead ..." to pursue the Holocaust.
	Nizkor then tells us how Pressac is a reformed revisionist and
former student of Faurisson but then hooked up with Serge Klarsfeld,
who's wife ended up publishing Pressac's first book "Auschwitz:
Techniques and Operation of the Gas Chambers". The page cites
Faurisson's book "Holocaust? Prove it Occurred", to lead into their
assertion that most of the evidence for the Holocaust was destroyed by
the SS. They say as to Faurisson's title "That wasn't easy for several
reasons" and continue on to say, evidence "had been systematically
concealed" by Hitler and Himmler. The copy says the orders were
"Always highly discreet", either "oral or written", and any records
were "immediately burned, historians suspect". They also cite
Pressac's assertion that "crematoria and other physical evidence ..."
was destroyed by retreating SS. How the historians would know about
all this "highly discreet", "oral" conference, Nizkor does not relate.
	Not until after a decade of research "was Pressac able to show
fresh documentary evidence" of the facilities at Auschwitz, "almost
entirely destroyed by the SS in Jan. 1945".  His break through came,
Nizkor says, "with international fame, two weeks ago with the
publication of his new book '"The Crematoria of Auschwitz"'. The
information for Pressac's new book was "largely based on new
information garnered from files taken by the Soviet Army" and were
made available to Pressac 3 years ago by the KGB, "which kept them
secret for 45 years".  Nizkor, who includes statements on other parts
of it's website about the Auschwitz numbers being fabrications of the
Poles and Soviets, states here that Pressac relies "repeatedly" on
these files with which he includes "supporting photos, charts and
notes".  Some of these photos we might assume, being those fuzzy half
tone photos discussed out here recently on alt.rev. 
	Utilizing mighty wording to put their bio across, Nizkor says
Pressac "cooly" recounts "with mind boggling technical detail" how the
SS built the facilities for mass murder at Auschwitz "and by
inference, in other camps". This might infer in itself that Holocaust
faction admits to not having any evidence even remotely as to
facilities of mass murder at other camps, since it took Pressac ten
years to uncover whatever he says he gets from the Soviet files on
Auschwitz. 
        Pressac's study on German "construction firms" and his other
work is "not easily refutable", Nizkor claims. The site states
Pressac's work "ends the dispute among '"professional historians
sympathetic"' on how the death camps were able to kill millions.
	Nizkor quotes Klarsfeld's wife as saying Pressac's work "stands
as the most complete reference book on the question", but soon quotes
Hilberg as saying Pressac is "not really a historian ...(Nizkor's
dots) and some of his interpretations could turn out to be erroneous".
As it turns out, Pressac's estimate for the number of Jews said to
have been put to death is 630,000 and Hilberg's is somewhere around a
million.
	Nizkor, for some reason, winds up giving us a three paragraph
account of how Pressac doesn't know enough about Jews or Judaism.
Where this all fits in with the rest, or with evidence, they do not
say. Maybe its if Pressac did know a little more about Jews and
Judaism his numbers would be a little higher. 
	I Tom Moran readily admit I have subjectively highlighted certain
elements of this Nizkor treatment to show it's inconsistencies and
failures as I see it, but I have included the path for anyone to view
the text in it's original form as presented by Nizkor.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 08:37:21 PDT 1996
Article: 68335 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Israeli attack on the Liberty was cold blooded murder.
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:11:07 GMT
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georgeh@www.comet.chv.va.us (George F. Hardy) wrote:

>In article <527835$sct@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) says:
>>
>>George F. Hardy (georgeh@www.comet.chv.va.us) wrote:
>>: In article <5254pr$ho3@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) says:
>>: Absolutely nothing.  Why did you bring up the Holocaust when
>>: the thread was on the USS Liberty?  I did not interject it,
>>: you did.
>>
>>Well, you're posting on alt.revisionism...
>>
>
>I LOVE it.  All things are related to the Holocaust, if posted on
>alt.revisionism.
>
>Ever heard of John Dean, Watergate and his effort to prevent 
>proof that his wife, Mo, was a prostitute and booked clients
>through the Democratic National Committee?  That sound like
>"revisionism", whether from a lie to the truth, or the other
>way around is still to be determined.  And the Holocaust fit
>in just how???
>
>GFH

	Israel is the product of the Holocaust.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 08:37:22 PDT 1996
Article: 68336 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Zyklone B - Unlikely Agent
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:58:40 GMT
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	This is a repost. It was once titled "Open Gallon of Paint, Paint
One Door, Throw the Rest Away". It is now being reposted in regards to
professor Keren's calling Moran a liar in another current post
"Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today". 

	The following post was first initiated by this exchange between
Greg Raven and Professor Keren. 

Raven: Because Zyklon B is specifically designed to gas off slowly, it
is obvious a poor choice for a homicidal gassing. 

Professor: It's amazing to see that Raven continues with this rubbish,
no matter how many times he is corrected.

Even "revisionist chemist" Germar Rudolph stated that about
40 percent of the HCN is released within half-an-hour. All the
SS had to do was to use, in the gas chambers, a concentration
comparable to that used for delousing. Since humans die
quickly from a far smaller concentration, much less than 40
percent would have to gas off in order to kill them.

Moreover, Dr. Ulrich Roessler did what our "revisionist scholars"
were too lazy to do for the last 20 years: he located the
original patent for Zyklon-B, which states that the rate of release
is even faster than what Rudolph gave. 

Raven: To claim that you could scatter same Zyklon B in a huge room
and within a few minutes have murdered the hundreds of people inside 
the room, flies in the face of the facts.


 
Professor: The above clearly refutes this silly statement by Raven,
but have no fear, he will keep repeating it in the future. After
all, he is a "revisionist scholar". 

                         ---------------
        Lets see. Raven says that Zyclone B is made to gas off slowly
and thus would be a poor choice for the mass extermination of human
beings under the conditions alleged.

	Karen responds with some material that he concludes "clearly
refutes" Raven's "rubbish".  

        The summary of the pertinent refuting information offered by
Keren is:
   
1. 40% of the HCN escapes the storing medium in the first half hour.

2. Humans die quickly from much less concentration, so much less than
40% would have to gas off.

3. That recently discovered patents to Zyclone B show that the gas off
is even faster.

        The points given do not offer sufficient parameters for
demonstrating that Zyclone B is an efficient product for mass
extermination, such as how much is needed, in what volume and for how
long. 
	
	Regardless of how fast the HCN evaporates into the existing air,
it has nothing to do with the necessary volume/quantity/air borne
level/time factors, only giving evaporation rate for the first 1/2
hour. You cannot deduce the most critical factors from the information
that Keren has supplied.
	
	As it turns out Kerens refuting material tends to support the
idea that Zyclone B is an inappropriate product for mass human
extermination.

	Since no numerical difference is cited between the 40%, and the
"even faster" gassing rate for Zyclone B in the first 1/2 hour, we are
left with an indefinite.
	Lets make it 50%, in the first half hour. This would come out to
about 1.6% of 50% per minute being gassed off in this time. We could
recognize that the rate of evaporation would be even quicker from the
time the can was opened in the first few minutes, gradiating off as
time went on. Lets make it 2.5% of 50% is gassed off for every minute,
giving the Holocaust position the benefit of the numerical increase.
	The popular times given for the extermination process are from 5
to 10 minutes. Giving the Holocaust position the benefit of the
numerical numbers, lets make it 10 minutes.
	Putting the figures together we come out needing only 33% of 50%,
or more precisely, 15% of the readily used product to attain the goal
of mass extermination in the time frame claimed.

	Right here we can see that the product is inefficient for short
term application. Only 15% is used for the intended purpose with the
other 85% being useless - wasted - lingering, left over to complicate
the ventilation of the chamber, the unloading of the bodies and the
preparation for the new batch.
	This alone shows that Zyclone B would have been a poor choice for
mass extermination and further suggests that the product itself was
not designed for the purpose. 
	Not giving the Holocaust story any accomodation of numbers in
their favor the amount of Zyclone B that would be used to attain the
goal would be - 8 percent - leaving 92 percent as useless, wasted,
lingering, left over to complicate the ventilation of the chambers,
the removal of bodies and the preparation for the next group.
	In a report by the Polish government on studies done to detect
any chemical traces at Auschwitz today, they state that the fumigation
process would take twenty four hours "and even longer". This would
show that Zyklone B was designed for slow extended release in order to
maintain a level of the agent in the chambers atmosphere. 
	Obviously there has not been any real effort put into revealing
the evaporation rate of the agent from it's pellet format. All we have
is what Professor Keren has put forth here, 40 to 50 percent in the
first half hour. It seems that it should be a whole lot less,
considering that the agent was designed to maintain a release over a
24 hour period. Who knows, maybe it is more like 5, 10 or 15 percent
in the first half hour. Certainly the evaporation would be stronger in
the very beginning, but 40 to 50 percent seems be an excessive
estimate. The professor did not include any citation from formal
experimentation. If it was say 20%, this would make the actual amount
used during any 5 minute gassing procedure only .66% every minute,
thus making the total use in 5 minutes 3.3%, leaving 96.4% not used.
Just think if it was only 10% in the first half hour? 1.6% used, and
98.4% not used. After all, it was designed for slow release to
maintain the agents presence in the atmosphere of the structure and
its contents over a extended  period of time, 24 hours or even longer
by Polish government accounts.

	This article was first posted a few months ago. I brought
immediate raving response from the professor and others. The professor
immediately came back with:

Professor: And your source for the "15%" figure is? You have already
proved to the readers of this newsgroup that you cannot handle basic
arithmetic; maybe you should check your calculations again?

	The professor didn't find it necessary to correct the basic
arithmetic. 

	He also had this to say:

Professor: It obviously wasn't invented for killing people. It was
invented long before the war to be used for fumigation. It just
happens that it also proved to be useful for other purposes. This is
because it releases the deadly gas HCN, which is still used in
homicidal gas chambers in US prisons.
	
	Actually the process for gassing in chambers of execution is KCN
potassium cyanide, dropped into a container of acid, that releases the
cyanide in the form HCN.

	HCN can come in a liquid form. If a liquid was used for any
alleged exterminations, it would have been way more
time/cost/efficiency efficient. But no, "It just happens that it also
proved to be useful for other purposes" says the professor.
	But then, it just so happens that it was on the premises for
other purposes. It just so happens it was just laying around. It just
so happens, if it wasn't just laying around, there would have been
nothing around to identify as the agent of mass extermination by
gassing. If the Soviet investigators had found cans of RAID, BLACK
FLAG or boxes of moth balls, this would have been the agent of mass
extermination.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 08:37:23 PDT 1996
Article: 68340 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:59:56 GMT
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                        [repost]

	According to Yehuda Backon, a survivor from Birkenau and settling
in Jeruselem testified at the Eichmann trial:

Backon: "In the fall of 1944 they (the Sonderkommando) lived inside
the crematorium, here on top (referring to a "drawing"), while some
were put up in the gas chambers of crematoria nos.3 and 4."

Judge: "In the attic?"

Backon: "In crematoria 1 and 2, and in crematoria 3 and 4, they lived
right inside the gas chambers."
                          ---------------

	"In the fall of 1944" would be about the time of mass gassing of
the Hungarian Jews, put at 400,000. We might expect that the walls and
floors of the chambers would be pretty well saturated, imbedded even,
with the super duper, terrible, omni-potent, lethal, deadly Zyklone B
and wonder about such a place doubling as a residence.

	Perhaps a document or additional survivor testimony will pop up
to show that the workers wore their gas masks while bedding down in
the gas chambers. Who ever comes up with the document should try to
give it a little extra force by having it show that the workers stayed
in there during the day seeing how it is said that the mass
exterminations took place at night.
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 08:37:24 PDT 1996
Article: 68342 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Where are the Mass Graves
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:55:12 GMT
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	There are many allusions by the Holocaust dependents that tens of
thousands, hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of Jews were
slaughtered and dumped into massive excavations, burnt and buried,
buried unburnt and/or, buried, dug up, burnt and then reburied.
	There is one geologic principle that is recognized to be manifest
in just about every land location on earth. Perhaps the most common
denominator in geologic occurrence. It is called regolithification. 
Regolith refers to the material that is found above the bedrock that
exists in every portion of the earth. For this treatment we can think
of it as being synonymous with the word 'soil'.
	If we went to any place on earth and dug a trench down and into
the bedrock we would have on the wall a cross section view of the
general surface area.
	Starting at the bottom of the cross section we would see a solid
rock wall. Then as we looked upward we would see fissures in the rock,
and as we preceded upward we would see rock material detaching from
the base formation and mixed with either sand or clay, depending on
the composition of the bed rock. As the investigation proceeded up,
the rocks would become smaller and smaller, the rest having
disintegrated into clay or sand.  Maybe about this time we might
observe roots from trees or shrubs. Further up most sizable rock
material would be reduced to pebble size and the disintegrated
material would become darker and darker as we neared the top, having
been stained by percolated solutions from organic activity at or near
the surface. This is the 99% rule.
	Thus, if any excavations were ever done in any area, sizable
amounts of regolith taken out and then dumped back in, the general
order would have to be so intermixed that if any subsequent cross
section was created at that spot and compared with probes in areas of
proximity, that could be established as being original regolithic
examples, it would be immediately apparent. 
	Should we consider all the tales of the Holocaust story, there
are scores of mass graves, taking into consideration the camps and
Einsatzguppen activity. In fact some explicit locations are directly
referred to, or at least, near exact locations, such as "next to
Crematoria II", "just outside the camp" or "grave yards" of identified
towns. In this case, even today, it would be possible to take core
samples from certain areas that could show if in fact there were any
mass murders and mass burials. Out side of finding what we should
expect to find, pieces of bone and layers of ash, at the very least,
as a starting point, we should find a disturbance of the regolithic
order.
	We might even theorize there should be depressions where the
alleged excavations were, from settling, especially in those tales
about people being just buried without cremation, since the bodies
being 70% water would disintegrate and the returned regolithic
material would settle in to take up any vacancies left from
decomposing. Even where the excavations were places where remains were
buried or people burned 'in situ' the soil having been taken out and
put back in would have to settle out. 
	So where are the mass graves, exactly? Just one or two of them?
No one seems to know, and it appears no one at the time did a forensic
survey or investigation while the evidence would still be 'fresh'. The
interesting thing here and now is, only the Holocaust doubters care to
ask. 





From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 09:17:27 PDT 1996
Article: 68343 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:07:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 41
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References:  <32436646.5688747@news.pacificnet.net> <324537aa.1090998@news.inetport.com> <32468a5f.2535777@news.pacificnet.net> <3246FEF8.1527@rio.com>
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:
>
>Moran seems curious about how all the priests died in the Dachau Nazi 
>death camp. (see I believe every Nazi camp was a death camp)
>
>Tommy, the priests died like so many other of the thousands of victims 
>of the Nazis, killed one way or another as planned by one A. Hitler. 
>
>Take your pick, Tommy:
>
>1- gassed to death
>2- shot to death
>3- tortured to death
>4- died in medical experiments
>5- clubbed to death by mean SS SOBs
>6- killed by dogs
>7- worked to death
>8- starved to death
>9- hanged to death
>10-name any cruel way to kill, the Nazis did it

	Lets hear the full particulars, Chuck.
Maybe Chuck knows. Where are the rabbis?

>Take your pick, Tommy. It's all the truth. No bull.
>
>Chuck
>
>
>tom moran wrote:
>> 
>> mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>> 
>> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>      Dachau isn't on the list of extermination camps anymore like it
>> >>was years ago.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 09:17:27 PDT 1996
Article: 68346 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:06:23 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 23
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>The funniest thing about Moran's article is actually not
>the content (which is as ridiculous as anything he posts),
>but the fact that the world's most famous "Holocaust
>revisionist", Ernst Zundel, believes that the Nazi
>leadership escaped Germany in "secret UFO's", and used
>them to fly to the inner earth, via "a hole in the
>South-Pole". The nut even claimed to have met some of
>the "German scientists" who "built the UFO's" (!!).
>
>The "revisionists" try to apologize for this by saying
>that Zundel only published his UFO material "for
>publicity"...
>
>What a bunch of crazed idiots, each and every one of them.

	There's his version of whatever Zundel said.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 09:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 68349 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:13:20 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	Dave, aren't you ever embarassed by this horseshit?  I mean, I
know
you're only begging for attention, but aren't there less humiliating
ways to go about it?  I mean, couldn't you go on Ricki and claim
your Mother stole your transexual girlfriend or something?

I mean, have some self-respect, Dave.

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 10:09:11 PDT 1996
Article: 68353 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TREBLINKA, there, gone, there again
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:06:04 GMT
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Lines: 7
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>    zeyde, you have been here over a year and you still haven't learned how
>    to present a URL.  Get with the program!

>     daniel david mittleman 

	There's one way of avoiding comment on the context of the post.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 12:26:16 PDT 1996
Article: 68361 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:57:32 GMT
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		Behold the lie, tell your friends.

	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		

















quatchen


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 12:26:16 PDT 1996
Article: 68363 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocuster's Last Stand
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:56:48 GMT
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                       [repost]
	
	There are many aspects to the Holocaust story. Numbers, methods,
and locations are the basic ingredients. How many people were
exterminated, how and where.
	This could be listed under two general headings, camps and field.
	The camps would be those places set up or eventually modified
especially for the purpose of mass extermination.
	The field would head all the things said to have happened outside
of the camps as to mass extermination.
	Many of the camps once said to have been extermination centers
have already been deleted from the story, as is the same for many
methods once said to have been used.  
	As for the killings in the field, next to nothing has been found
that would even remotely substantiate the huge numbers said to have
been killed, sometimes as many 40,000 all in one night at a single
location.
	After all this and aside from all that is left, the conflict
between truth and fiction is all focused on Auschwitz. 
	Auschwitz is the soup can at the bottom of the pyramid. The
cornerstone. The focus of the whole story. Center stage. The last
tension in the wind up toy. Once the world sanity comes to recognize
the myths of Auschwitz everything else tumbles, melts and crys.
	All the talk about populations, the 3,000,000 names collected,
all the big tales, all the little tales, all the witnesses, all the
interpretations, all the confirming research, all the books, all the
museums, all the activity of the last fifty years, all will follow.
	Auschwitz, the vital frontier. When it all falls, it will be
Humpty Dumpty time. All the books and all the museums or anything else
will not be able to sustain belief or acceptance in whatever remains.
 
	Only a major revision to the First Amendment, enforced by 
totalitarian authority, can keep the Holocaust story true.
	




 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 12:26:17 PDT 1996
Article: 68366 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morris can't even quote Bacon correctly.[ according to Collins].....
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:07:32 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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References: <32415e43.532827@news.pacificnet.net> <3241a7b2.9725794@news.srv.ualberta.ca>  <3245c31d.102763544@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>Jeffrey  wrote:
>
>[nearly 200 lines of text deleted]
>
>>Read the above article carefully.
>
>Bearing in mind that Revisionist Scholar Jeff Roberts saw fit to quote
>almost 200 lines to make one feeble point.
>
>>Now read the article again bearing in mind that :=
>
>Bearing in mind that Revisionist Scholar and Latinist Jeff Roberts has
>quoted almost 200 lines of text and has absolutely nothing to say
>about the substance of the argument.
>
>>[According to Collins Gem Quotations, page 19 no 6]
>
>Is that the little wee one with the vinyl cover, or the pocketbook?
>
>>The quote by Francis Bacon (1st Baron Verulam and Viscount St Albans)
>>1561-1626 [from Religious Meditations, 'Of Heresies'] actually reads 
>
>>Nam et ipsa scientia potestas est. 
>
>>And translates as  
>
>>- Knowledge itself is power.
>
>What about "nam et"? Didn't the "Collins Gem" translate that for you?
>Do you know the corresponding idiom in late medieval and early modern
>English writing? Any clues as to why we no longer use double
>intensives in English writing? Any suggestions on how the substance of
>the quote is changed by the absence of the intensive in the
>translation?
>
>The general reader should know that the "Collins Gem" Latinist and I
>have a history. Mr. Roberts believes that I am a Bad Man, because he
>once got it into his head that I accused him of being a pederast (with
>Anne Frank, no less), but he never quite got around to accepting my
>apology for his misunderstanding. Mr. Roberts also believes that I am
>a Bad Scholar and a Bad Man because I will not "admit" that Francis
>Bacon was a Great Man.
>
>Mr. Roberts is a major loon.

	No wonder this guy is back so soon from his high falootin job he
went off to a couple of months ago.

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 12:26:18 PDT 1996
Article: 68379 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Kids Stay Cozy in Gas Chambers
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:59:43 GMT
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	 "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"

	"Jehuda Bacon was a 14-year-old member of the truck commando who
had to retrieve ashes from the crematoria to spread onto the the icy
paths during winter. He saw horrible events there, but also got to
know Kalman Furman, who was always friendly to the teens and ready to
help. Bacon remembers the '"Aryan"' kapo Jozef Ilezuk--a teacher who
allowed children, upon completion of their work, to warm themselves in
an empty gas chamber."

	Well, that certainly is a paragraph full.

	Does this mean that kids played a role in the process of the
exterminations? Seems so.
	How much did he get to see of the operation while going in and
out to get the ashes? "He saw horrible events there".
	Where did the kids go after the shift of duty? Since this tale is
a continuation of the book's stating how the sondercommando got to
make discrete contact at times with the general prisoner population we
might assume the kids just went back to their barracks. They didn't
say anything because the SS told them all the "horrible things" were
to be kept a secret.
	Does this statement say they used the ashes to keep people from
slipping on the icy walk ways? Yikes. But hold it. What about those
stories about the ashes had to be further pulverized to obliterate any
solid remains? Well good thing, what with spreading the remains around
on icy paths all over camp we couldn't have any signs of what it might
really be.
	Are we to believe that the kids were taken or allowed to go to
the gas chamber cellars to warm up? Do they mean they went through the
rooms to the stairs, down the stairs to the gas chambers to get warm?
But what about the heat from the raging or idling burnings of multiple
furnaces in the cremation area? You'd think it would be pretty warm in
there. But then with all those dead bodies stacked up, as the story
goes, maybe there wasn't any room for them to stand.
	The Holocaust story says the cellar chambers were aired out after
each mass murder, which would tend to make them about as cold as the
outside. Oh', the chambers were heated the story could go?  But then
the story tells how hot buckets of coke were used to heat the cellar
chambers for the mass gassing, coke itself giving off carbon monoxide,
so it wouldn't have been used to heat the chambers just for the
children. 
	Since the Holocaust story has the sondercommandos themselves
using the gas chambers as living quarters, when they weren't in use of
course, we might suppose they and the kids all sat around and had
chats. Or maybe something like 'Hey you kids, shut up. We're trying to
sleep'.

	Yup. Something wacky on every page of a Holocaust book.  




From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 15:19:47 PDT 1996
Article: 68416 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:04:50 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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                              [Repost]			

	                      Hillary Ostrov
                        (Nizkor co-webmaster)
          			  alt.revisionism
		          	"No Zyklone - then DDT"

	          "Many of us believe that ridicule
                  is the most appropriate response to
                  one who(offers) up thoroughly idiotic
                  questions and responses."


	'We at Nizkor will be the ultimate authority on what constitutes
"idiotic questions and responses".
	
	



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 15:19:48 PDT 1996
Article: 68425 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:09 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Sep 1996 22:03:01 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>># Maybe Mr.Keren would like to say how the
>># numbers on this list were killed?
>
>>Are you suggesting that, if no mass gassing took place
>>in this camp, it was impossible to kill these people?
>
>>How many people do you claim Stalin's regime killed,
>>without using gas chambers?
>
>>You're *really* an odd person, zeyde.
>
>	How did you get from a tabulation of deaths to murder? 
	Doesn't matter. The list is a phony. Why would they even compile
it in the first place? Where are the rabbis? 
>
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
>http://www.codoh.com/
>http://www.webcom.com/~zundel
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 15:19:48 PDT 1996
Article: 68426 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:04:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <3247ea7d.504211@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3244185d.2238743@news.pacificnet.net> <843402312snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk (Alexander Baron) wrote:

>In article <3244185d.2238743@news.pacificnet.net>
>           tm@pacificnet.net "tom moran" writes:
>
>>         
>>         The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
>> "eyewitness" accounts of what they saw.
>> 
>>         UFO stories are largely based on "eyewitness" accounts of what
>> they saw.
>> 
>
>
>Why aren't people who question UFOs branded anti-Semitic?

	Damn interesting question.

>-- 
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself 
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 15:19:49 PDT 1996
Article: 68428 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
Subject: Better dead than alive II
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:34:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:68428 alt.conspiracy:91455 alt.censorship:102334

	
	This is a repost of "Better dead than alive" expanded and
updated.

	The State Department has issued a directive to U.S. airlines that
fly over the Gulf of Arabia.

	Should any problems occur, they are to take their chances on
ditching in the water instead of making a emergency landing at a Iraqi
or Iranian airport. 

	No one with any respect for reason would think that anything bad
would happen to any passengers or airline personnel if such a
emergency landing did take place in either one of these lands of
Israel's enemies.

	To avoid this likelihood, it is better to have the crew and
passengers die in the water than to chance an embarrassment from any
good treatment that might show Israel's enemies are not all that the
U.S. dominated press would have us believe.
=======================================================================

                            N.Y.Times
                         Sept. 21, 1996

	"U.S. Airlines Told to Stop Routing Flights Over Iran"

	Washington, Sept. 20 -- The Federal Aviation Administration has
issued an emergency order barring flights by United States airlines
over Iran because, it said, the Iranian military installed
antiaircraft missiles on the Iranian-Turkish border this month.
	But other Government officials immediately questioned how long
the missile site  had been in place and why the aviation agency
announced the restrictions now.
	"There's always been a surface to air missile site there, so I
don't know why the FAA chose this time to issue the notice", said an
Administration officer familiar with Iran.
	...
	Representative Benjamin A. Gilman, N.Y. Republican who heads the
House International Relations Committee, wrote the FAA in July to
express concern ...
	....
	....
	....
	A spokesman for United, Joe Hopkins, said planes would be
rerouted over Saudi Arabia to avoid flying across Iran. The change
would add about 65 minutes to the flight ..."
=========================================================================

	So is it a coincidence that it just so happens a Jewish Rep. is
the prime mover in the hype to make Iran, Israel's enemy look like
it's a menace to our flights?
	The U.S. has been flying over Iran for years without incident. It
would be idiotic for the Iranians to shoot down an American passenger
plane. The U.S. pilots have amiable contact with Tabriz airport when
entering into Iranian airspace. Regardless of what the Jewish
dominated press says, Iran is nothing what the U.S. medias strive to
have the citizens believe. 
	We shouldn't overlook that whatever we read in our medias is
nothing like what we would read in any other nations medias, excluding
Israel of course.
	
	The extra time of 65 minutes now going to be added on to the
flight because of this anti-Israeli enemy ploy will result in 9000
pounds of fuel being used. There are two United flights alone each
day. One to India, and one back. This is 18,000 pounds of fuel each
day. This will come out to 6,570,000 pounds a year. This is just for
the one daily round trip flight by United and not considering the
other carriers that fly over the route.
	This will mean that thousands of passengers a month will have to
endure the total of two hours longer in the air.
	All this for the sack of propagandizing against Israel's enemy.
=======================================================================

	The latest is that Jesse Helms has flown to Denver to consult
with United Airlines to make sure there is no flack from that end.
=======================================================================

	On your knees before Israel, America. Suffer and rot for the
Jewish state. 
	    


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 17:42:46 PDT 1996
Article: 68445 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bacon, Diogenes, Homer, Voltaire - enemies of Holocaust tyranny
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:04:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <3247ea67.482406@news.pacificnet.net>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <32415e43.532827@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>	
>>	Or, Disagreeable Words for the ADL, Simon Wiesenthal and Co.
>>                 ==============================
>
>>	"Liberty of speech, inviteth and provoketh liberty to be used
>>again, and so bringeth much to a man's knowledge."
>>                                            Francis Bacon
>> 
>>	"The most beautiful thing in the world is freedom of speech."
>>                                            Diogenes
>> 
>>	"To speaketh his thoughts is every freeman's right, in peace and
>>war, in council and in fight."
>>                                            Homer
>> 
>>	"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death
>>your right to say it."
>>                                            Voltaire
>> 
>>	Freedom of Speech is the enemy of the totalitarian Holocaust lie.
>>                                            Moran
>
>    Why then, Tommy, do you think that every regular poster here who is in
>    any way associated with Nizkor has denounced any and all actions by
>    American, Canadian, German and other governments to limit freedom of
>    speech regarding the Holocaust?
>
>    You never seem to address this question in between your posting of
>    illogical rants about freedom of speech.

	Saying is one thing, action is another. Boasting words are
boasting words only. The real substance can be determined in other
ways. You are a liberal user of the term "anti-Semitism". The term
"anti-Semitism" applied and not defended.  
	The term "Anti-Semitism" as used for the most part, is only a
weapon. It is not an answer, it is not a reply, it is not asking for
clarification or asking for proof. The term "anti-Semitism" is
intended to stop all that. 

>     daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 17:42:46 PDT 1996
Article: 68446 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Some Holocaust Facts
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:04:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <3247ea79.500201@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32441893.2292569@news.pacificnet.net> <23SEP199610081972@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <32441893.2292569@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>                             [repost]
>> 
>>	Anywhere from 600,000 to 4 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz.
>
>    Anywhere from 700,000 to 1.5 million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. 


==========================================================================
>    All historians who have investigated the matter have come up with
>    numbers within this range.
==========================================================================

	Just to name a couple:

Yehuda Bauer, up to 3 million.

Nora Levin, up to 2.3 million

and then all the other 20 or 30 that have figures over 2 million and
on up to 4 million that gets listed under "Behold the Lie". The list
is destined to grow as new examples become known, while your one or
two examples will remain at one or two.

	The only one is Reitlinger and now maybe Hilberg.

>>	The total number of people to have been exterminated by the Nazis
>>during the WWII period is 10 million, 11 million or 12 million.
>
>    Agreed.
>
>    At least you got this right.

	Who said anything about it being "right"? We're talking Holocaust
facts, remember?

>     daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 17:42:47 PDT 1996
Article: 68452 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Moran Even Responds At All
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:06:04 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	As Moran sees it, the only reason to be out here is to expose the
>extortional Holocaust story as a lie. Sort of like a patriotic duty, a
>concern for the world.
>	But posting stuff out here is like being a gardner who is trying
>to grow something and has to go out and pull some weeds once in
>awhile. 
>	
	And then most of the weeds are so insufficient and insignificant
they don't even need to be pulled.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 17:42:48 PDT 1996
Article: 68474 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran the Bigot
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:34:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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References: <324012ea.559740@news.pacificnet.net> <51q3t0$n1j@news.enter.net> <21SEP199612290010@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <3245376e.1163476@news.pacificnet.net> <527nbg$2jq@orion.cybercom.net>
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amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:


>Oh, now that was a brilliant response, Moron.   Couldn't you at least have 
>said 'Whatzat'?  That would have been more grammatically correct.  Of course 
>your grasp of the English language is like your grasp of reality - very 
>tenuous at best.
>
>allan

	Wherzat?






From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 18:41:43 PDT 1996
Article: 68487 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.ethics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,rec.music.christian,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: Why do you believe it???????????
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:06:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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ae494@freenet.durham.org (MICHAEL SMITH) wrote:

>I'm curious, people here seem to have beliefs they are willing to defend
>and/or insult others who do not agree with, yet none of them properly
>explain why they believe what they believe.  Do they believe based
>on personal experiences of one sort or another, things they read,
>discusses and deduced by themselves, things they were taught or
>merely a desire to conform to their peers apparant beliefs.  I'm
>just curious, for my own information.  Could someone respond
>to this or Email, I don't care.  I would really like to know
>how individuals come to accept and believe certain ideologies.
>
>Thankyou, Mike

	Humanity is such that there are those who believe whatever, and
those who come to question.
	There is the herd instinct with which most run with the dust
flying in their eyes. And there are those who trot along on the
outside watching the dust.
	It is partially the cause from the evolutionary dynamics of the
universe. We all have a piece of each step. Nature is not fair. Some
get caught with more primitive genes than others. Thus the tribal
instinct is still with us.
	Blind acceptance is probably a genetically based propensity
common to many. Maybe to most. The will for the absolute. It's
comfortable.
	Thought itself is a evolutionary process. There are two basic
ways of thinking. One is the emotional and the other is the empirical.
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 21:34:55 PDT 1996
Article: 68500 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:07:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:09:23 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>Clergymen in Dachau classified according to nationality 
>>>and religion. Note very high number (and percentage) of 
>>>Polish priests who were murdered in the camp.
>>
>>>Source: SS records, quoted in "Concentration Camp Dachau", 
>>>ISBN 3-87490-528-4, p. 60. 
>>
>>>Nationality      Total   Released   Transferred  Liberated   Deaths
>>>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Albanian           2         -           2            -         -
>>
>>	Only a holohugger can go from deaths to murders.  
>
>Only a Hitlerhugger could go from "I don't know how 50% of the Polish
>priests at Dachau died" to "It's okay that they died because I don't
>know how they died."

	Where are the rabbis?
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Sep 24 21:34:56 PDT 1996
Article: 68505 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: American involvement
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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References: <51uc1r$q5r@news.usf.edu>
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Mary Apicella  wrote:

>Dear friends,
>   I am a student at the university of south florida.  I am interested 
>in finding out How many Jews lost their lives from the Holocaust, and 
>The American involvement or non-involvement.  A friend of mine told me 
>that America knew about the happening of the prision camps for more than 
>a year before they got involved. How can this be? Could our president at 
>the time be that ignorant as to not help out people that were in need!! 
>I've visited the Nizkor home page and am slowly trying to find out 
>information.  Please help me with my misunderstandings of the event at 
>that time.  Please E-Mail me any information you might have at 
>swanson@csee.usf.edu or go to my home page 
>http://www.eng.usf.edu/~kswanson


	I would invite you to read "Beyond Belief" by Debra Lipstadt,
ardent Holocaust defender who refuses to debate the truth or fiction
of the Holocaust story.

	Read her book, and then take note of the disclaimer in the front
that she wasn't out to implicate the U.S. and then ask yourself if she
was being honest.

	I would recommend, that while your out to find U.S. complicity in
the Holocaust story, find out exactly what we turned our backs on. The
truth of the story is under tremendous pressure, including all the
rumors that were flying around during the war, rumors you won't find
in the Holocaust promotional sales package today because they are now
recognized as lies. These rumors would be what Ms.Lipstadt would find
we turned our back to.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 00:04:58 PDT 1996
Article: 68534 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>         UFO stories are largely based on "eyewitness" accounts of what
>> they saw.
>
>Nonsense.  Ernst Zuendel has photos and other physical evidence,
>including but not limited to novelty frisbees.

	I guess Jamie here, has given his best shot. You can only do what
you can do. Nature ain't fair.

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/flying-saucers/
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
> Hate mail will be posted.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 00:04:59 PDT 1996
Article: 68535 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Forensic Studies, Enemies of the Myth
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:34 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article , 
>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>
>[a moron's raving snipped]
>[a moron raving snippeds]
>
>>Translation: Moran has been exposed for the pathetic little worm and
>>anti-Semitic Holocuast denier he is -and has no cogent rebuttal. Again. 
>
>Translation: Morans have been exposed for the pathetic little worm and
>anti-Semitic Holocaust deniers he am -and has no cogent rebuttalses. 
>Again. 

	Too bad you didn't join in to show your stuff while it was going
on instead of popping in later to mumble something. But then maybe you
could show where VanAlstine prevailed and Moran failed, at this time.

	Take a shot, I won't even bother to strighten out whatever.
The show is all yours.
 
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/
>
>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>International Military Tribunal:   http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 00:05:00 PDT 1996
Article: 68536 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 4
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	This is incredible. Here I post a list of nitwit statements by
one of the Holocaust defense team and a whole bunch of others come
over voluntarily to post their own.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 00:05:01 PDT 1996
Article: 68537 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Heart of Judaic Instruction
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:53 GMT
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	WE - them.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 00:05:02 PDT 1996
Article: 68538 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'The strain on the furnaces was colossal'
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:37 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:47:58 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>Kurt Prufer, senior engineer of Topf and Sohne, testifying in Erfurt,
>>>>Germany, March 5, 1946
>>>>[Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming
>>>>from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993]
>[snip]
>
>>>	Now heres a guy who was at the camp numerous times in the direct
>>>function of installing Kremas who we should presume to be one of the
>>>"Ordinary Germans" and "willing executioners, who we should expect to
>>>know quite a bit about the crematoriums. A first hand, expert witness
>>>so to speak. One might think the inquiring body would be keen on
>>>getting a detailed picture.
>
>So, we have Tom Moran who thinks there was no Holocaust because some
>interrogators did not ask detailed technical questions about furnace
>construction. . . .
>
>>	Now, now.  You have read the statement of the "president" of the trials.  They
>>were required to be short and fast and it was forbidden to do anything that
>>would lengthen the trials such as, as I have presented, require proof that the
>>crimes actually occurred.  
>
>And we have Matt Giwer who thinks these questions were asked at some
>trial or other.
>
>Okay. Which trial?
>
>You are always going on about how you want to get at the truth of what
>actually happened. So tell us what happened. Tell us at which trial
>Pruefer was examined.
>
>>	Remember these were War Crimes Trials.  The War Crime of interest was losing the
>>war, sort of a negative crime but certainly punishable by death.  
>
>If this particular case examined at a War Crimes Trial, surely you can
>tell us which one.
>
>[cue the "Jeopardy" theme]

	Giwer, I think Mr.Morris may have us here. Maybe it wasn't a
trial. In that case all one would have to do is maintain the intial
critique and just change the references to any trial. Then maybe
Mr.Morris would come back and try to deal with it more directly. 
	But wait, we have an interogation, with this expert testimony,
and it never went to a court? Shocking.

>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 00:05:02 PDT 1996
Article: 68539 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Swiss
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:48:05 GMT
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	                   N.Y.Times
                     Sept. 24, 1996

                 "$5.5 Billion Missing"
	By A.M.Rosenthal (Mad dog defender of all things Judo/Zionist.)

	"Switzerland decided a half century ago to return to the Allies
of WWII the stolen gold deposited by the Nazis in Swiss Banks. But the
bankers did not exactly clean out their vaults.
	The British Foreign Office says ... only about 10 percent. The
difference ... $5.5 billion. The gold was taken mostly from the
treasuries ... occupied countries. It also came from the teeth of
Holocaust victims.
	....
	Blessed are they who bring mirth into our lives -- as Swiss
bankers do into mine. They say they may not be able to find the
records because they are not legally obliged to keep them more than 10
years. Are they legally obliged to destroy records that they know deal
with the profits of mass murder and Continental pillage?
	...
	It happens that through the decisions of the Communist government
of Poland and the N.Y.Times I was sentenced to a year in Switzerland
as a foreign correspondent. For my reporting the Communist kicked me
out of Poland, which was then my assignment. ..."
	... [Another couple of paragraphs of how evil the Swiss are]
	It has taken the Swiss this long to face their role in the
Holocaust. Germans are still fighting the idea that  millions of other
Germans had some role in the slaughters. [A previous Rosenthal article
stated 50,000,000 Germans. Babies and Grand pappies we assume.]
	Mr.Rosenthal then goes on to denounce the N.Y.Times for it's role
in not covering the prewar rumors that were flying around, most, if
not all of which have been exposed as lies. Most, if not all of which,
are not included in the Holocaust promotional sales package.]
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 01:57:44 PDT 1996
Article: 68557 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 17
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	
	"Source: SS records, quoted in "Concentration Camp Dachau", 
ISBN 3-87490-528-4, p. 60."?

	Dauchau? Didn't that camp used to be the Holocaust story's major
extermination camp at one time, and then deleted?

	I'd say the list, document, or whatever is a phony.

	Where are like lists for other camps?
	  
     Where are the Presbyterians, Methodists, the Lutherans?
	
	And where are the rabbis?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 01:57:45 PDT 1996
Article: 68561 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: American involvement
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:05:12 GMT
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>Mary Apicella  may have written:
>>Dear friends,
>>   I am a student at the university of south florida.  I am interested 
>>in finding out How many Jews lost their lives from the Holocaust, and 
>>The American involvement or non-involvement.  A friend of mine told me 
>>that America knew about the happening of the prision camps for more than 
>>a year before they got involved. How can this be? Could our president at 
>>the time be that ignorant as to not help out people that were in need!! 
>
>A few answers:
>
>1. While there had been "euthanasia" programs in the 30's, the mass
>   murders didn't really get into full swing until 1942.

	There were lots of rumors.

>2. After WWI, the US had a strong isolationist streak, and profound
>   skepticism about wartime atrocities, since much of the WWI propaganda
>   was misleading.

	This is full bull. There was big ado. There were protracted
trials. It was the center of focus. We take note that all the talk
about being 'isolationists" would apply to after the war, not during
the war. 

>3. Many Americans, even "respectable" ones like Henry Ford and Charles
>   Lindbergh, were nearly as racist and anti-Semitic as the Nazi
>   leadership. The difference was that they didn't have absolute power or
>   as strong a "national security emergency" excuse.

	Ask your self, Ms.Appicella, does this make any sense as to your
question?

	I would recommend you follow Mr.Graves stuff, to see if he is an
honest straight forward type of person.
>-rich



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 01:57:46 PDT 1996
Article: 68565 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:34:48 GMT
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	Yeah!  This weak G.K.E. guy complained to kgirl's postmaster
about her spamming.  A strong, virile, manly ubermencsch would have
gone to her house and sacrificed her to the Goat God.

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 01:57:46 PDT 1996
Article: 68566 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What? No rabbis?
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 19:34:52 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>># Posted by Mr.Keren, under "Priests murdered in Dachau".
>>#
>># What does Mr.Keren care about priests? He doesn't.
>>
>>Of course I do. It's Tom Moran who apparently doesn't 
>>care about anyone but his heroes, the Nazis; this is 
>>probably why he finds it appropriate to joke about the 
>>priests they murdered in Dachau. I don't see anything
>>funny about Nazis murdering priests.
>>-Danny Keren.
>
>	Okay, I'll take your word for it. 
>
>	Now how about, "What? No rabbis?

	The missing rabbis, Mr.Keren?


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 07:39:07 PDT 1996
Article: 68651 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:07:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 34
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## Clergymen in Dachau classified according to nationality 
>## and religion. Note very high number (and percentage) of 
>## Polish priests who were murdered in the camp.
>##
>## Source: SS records, quoted in "Concentration Camp Dachau", 
>## ISBN 3-87490-528-4, p. 60. 
>
># Only a holohugger can go from deaths to murders.
>
>The Giwer probably thinks they all died from old age.
>
># http://www.webcom.com/~zundel
>
>Why is it not surprising that Giwer thinks that Ernst
>Zundel, a nut who believes that the Nazi leadership
>escaped into the inner earth with "secret UFO's", is
>a credible source? 

	Where are the rabbis?

>-Danny Keren.
>
> ---
>In Message-ID: <4n0ik8$1a8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, Matt Giwer
>suggested that documents about a "gas chamber" and "gassing cellar"
>in the Birkenau crematoriums didn't count, as they were really due
>to "a morbid sense of humor" of the SS men who authored the documents.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 10:21:49 PDT 1996
Article: 68681 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Mass Graves
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:00:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 35
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>[a bunch of theorizing]
>
>>         So where are the mass graves, exactly? Just one or two of them?
>> No one seems to know,
>
>(sigh)
>
>We know exactly where the ashes are buried:  in Auschwitz, in Treblinka,
>in Belzec, in Sobibor, in Majdanek, in Chelmno.  Andrew Allen, a frequent
>"revisionist" poster to this forum, has confirmed that core samples taken
>at Treblinka found ashes and human remains to a depth of seven meters,
>for example.
>
>I'm sorry to break it to you, but just because nobody has done your current
>favorite form of analysis of the sites does not mean the Holocaust never
>happened.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/

	You say, " Andrew Allen, a frequent "revisionist" poster to this
forum, has confirmed ... ". 

	Andrew Allen, you say?

	"a frequent ... poster", you say?

	"Confirmed" you say?

	Now that is very convincing.

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 10:21:49 PDT 1996
Article: 68682 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:01:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3247ea7f.506847@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> ...You can only do what you can do. Nature ain't fair.
>
>Indeed. But Nature was downright cruel to _you_ when passing out brains....
>
>Mark

	Just Mr.VanAlstine expressing what nature gave him.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 10:21:50 PDT 1996
Article: 68683 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Mass Graves
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:00:52 GMT
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rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:

>If you were referring to the victims of the Holocaust, see
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz for historical documentation
>and pictures of the crematoria.

> There are pictures of mass graves around
>too; do a search, http://www.nizkor.org/search.html

>-rich

	Okay, that's one way of implying something exist. Go to Nizkor,
you say?  Enter "search"? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 10:21:51 PDT 1996
Article: 68686 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:12:41 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>  		Behold the lie, tell your friends.
>
>	Nope.  I'll tell everyone here.  T. Moran is the liar.
>
>	After a long and dishonest opening statement which he knows is not 
>true, T. Moran posts a number of sources which he claims represent a sample of 
>what a person going to the library will find.  Note that none of them are 
>quotations.  For those who wonder why, the expanations is a simple one.  Moran 
>is lying.  Samples:
>
	What, no URLs to Moran's dossier in Nizkor?



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 10:21:51 PDT 1996
Article: 68694 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:19:22 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	This article incited an alt.revisionism regular to claim he had
>: lost 160 relatives in the Holocaust. After considerable goading to get
>: him to post the proof, he "retracted" the claim.
>
>No, Tom--he didn't retract the claim, with or without quotation marks.
>
>You're lying again, Tom.  Get that checked, will you?
>
>Bill

	Anyone wanting to see the full sequence, see alt.revisionism
post, "I will ... this weekend".


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 10:21:52 PDT 1996
Article: 68702 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Scientific Assumptions Admissible
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:12:55 GMT
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	From a recent Nizkor posting,	"Holocaust Almanac: Treblinka
Judgement".
		
>Archive/File: camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka german.court
>
>                       EXCERPTS FROM JUDGMENTS
>                         (URTEILSBEGRUNDUNG)

"It has not been possible, of course, to establish the exact number
of people transported to Treblinka in this fashion, because only a
part of the transportation documents, particularly those relevant to
the railroad transports, are available. Still, assuming that each
of the trains consisted of an average of 60 cars, with each freight
car holding an average total of 100 persons and each passenger car
an average total of 50 (i.e., that each freight train might have
carried an approximate total of 6,000, and each passenger train
an approximate total of 3,000 Jews to Treblinka) the total number
of people transported to Treblinka in freight trains and passenger
trains might be estimated at approximately 271,000. This total would
not include the 329,000 from Warsaw. Actually, however, these figures 
in many instances were much larger than the ones cited above. Besides,
many additional thousands of Jews - and also Gypsies - arrived in
Treblinka in horse-drawn wagons and on trucks. Accordingly, it must
be assumed that that the total number of Jews from Warsaw, from other 
parts of Poland, from Germany and from other European countries,
who were taken to Treblinka, plus the total of at least 1,000 Gypsies
who shared the safe fate, amounted to far more than 700,000, even if
one considers that several thousands of people were subsequently
moved from Treblinka to other camps and that several hundred inmates
succeeded in escaping from the camp, especially during the revolt
of August 2, 1943. In view of the foregoing, it would be
scientifically admissible to estimate the total number of persons
killed in Treblinka at a minimum of 700,000.

The court of Assizes sees no reason to question the opinion of this
expert, who is known in the scholarly world for his studies on the
National Socialist persecution of the Jews. The expert opinion he
has submitted is detailed, thorough, and therefore convincing."

=====================================================================


	"It has not been possible, of course, to establish the exact
number of people transported to Treblinka ..."

	"Still, assuming ..."

	"Actually, however, these figures in many instances were much
larger than the ones cited above."

	"Accordingly, it must be assumed ..."

	"In view of the foregoing, it would be scientifically admissible
..."


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 15:22:14 PDT 1996
Article: 68756 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel Testifies About Belzec
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:02:11 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Professor Wilhelm Pfannenstiel, Waffen-SS hygienist, on a gassing 
>at Belzec
>[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 238-244]
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>When I am asked about executions of Jews I must confirm that on 19 August
>1942 I witnessed an execution of Jews at Belzec extermination camp. I
>would like to describe how I came to be there. During my conversations
>with SS-Brigadefuehrer Globocnik, he told me about the large
>spinning-mills that he had set up in Belzec. He also mentioned that
>work at this camp would considerably outstrip German production. When
>I asked him where the spinning materials came from, he told me proudly
>that they had come from the Jews. At this point he also mentioned the
>extermination actions against the Jews, who for the most part were
>killed at the the camp at Belzec...

	This is a good example of why the Auschwitz Museum curator stated
the new numbers for the camps death toll were not to be founded on
eyewitness testimony, be it prisoner or SS. He even denounces court
hearings.
	Does Mr.Keren have any other testimonies that mesh with one?  
	"Large spinning mills"? Material? Human hair.
	What was the end product made into? We will never know. 

>During this first visit I was taken to around by a certain
>Polizieihauptmann named Wirth, who also showed and explained to me the
>extermination installations at the camp. He told me that the following
>morning a new transport of about 500 Jews would be arriving at the
>camp who would be channeled through these extermination chambers. He
>asked me whether I would like to watch one of these extermination
>actions, to which, after a great deal of reflection, I consented. I
>planned to submit a report to the Reichsarzt-SS about the
>extermination actions. In order to write a report I had, however,
>first to observe an action with my own eyes. I remained in the camp,
>spent the night there and was witness to the following events the next
>morning.
>
>A goods train traveled directly into the camp of Belzec, the freight
>cars were opened and Jews whom I believe were from the area of Romania
>or Hungary were unloaded. The cars were crammed fairly full. There
>were men, women and children of every age. They were ordered to get
>into line and then had to proceed to an assembly area and take off
>their shoes...
>
>After the Jews had removed their shoes they were separated by sex. The
>women went together with the children into a hut. There their hair was
>shorn and they had to get undressed... The men went into another hut,
>where they received the same treatment. I saw what happened in the
>women's hut with my own eyes. After they had undressed, the whole
>procedure went fairly quickly. They ran naked from the hut through a
>hedge into the actual extermination centre. The whole extermination
>centre looked just like a normal delousing institution. In front of
>the building there were pots of geraniums and a sign saying "Hackenholt
>Foundation", above which there was a star of David. The building was
>brightly and pleasantly painted so as not to suggest people would be
>killed here...
>
>Inside the buildings, the Jews had to enter chambers into which was
>channeled the exhaust of a [100(?)]-HP engine, located in the same
>building. In it there were six such extermination chambers. They were
>windowless, had electric lights and two doors. One door led outside so
>that the bodies could be removed.  People were led from a corridor
>into the chambers through an ordinary air-tight door with bolts. There
>was a glass peep-hole, as I recall, next to the door in the wall.
>Through this window one could watch what was happening inside the room
>but only when it was not too full of people. After a short time the
>glass became steamed up. When the people had been locked in the room
>the motor was switched on and then I suppose the stop-valves or vents
>to the chambers opened.  Whether they were stop-valves or vents I
>would not like to say. It is possible that the pipe led led directly
>to the chambers. Once the engine was running, the light in the
>chambers was switched off. This was followed by palpable disquiet in
>the chamber. In my view it was only then that the people sensed
>something else was in store for them. It seemed to me that behind the
>thick walls and door they were praying and shouting for help.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 17:30:16 PDT 1996
Article: 68787 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, coming up.
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:39:46 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

	Sept. 25, 1996

 	So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or Mr.McVay.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Sep 25 22:38:01 PDT 1996
Article: 68875 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Evil Swiss II
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:56:10 GMT
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	                 Unsigned editorial
                     N.Y.Times, 9/25/1996

                "The Secrets of Swiss Bankers"

	"The cloistered Swiss banking industry has belatedly and
reluctantly agreed to unlock two of its most disturbing secrets. One
is the handling of accounts opened by European Jews who were later
killed in the Holocaust. The other is the expedient relationship it
cultivated with Nazi Germany.
	A lingering mystery of the Nazi era is what happened to the gold,
money ... deposited in Swiss banks by Jews ... No one is certain how
many such Swiss accounts were opened or how much they were worth, but
there is no doubt that at the end of the war Swiss banks were left
with numerous unclaimed deposits made by Jews ...
	[Paragraph about "tons of gold" never returned to whoever.]
	For decades the Swiss banking industry arrogantly ... The Swiss
stonewall ...
	International pressure must be maintained ...
	...
	...
	The bankers and the World Jewish Congress ... independent audit
.. locating accounts ... ultimately making the assets available to
relatives who can establish a legitimate claim.
	...
	The search will not be easy and the amount of gold and other
assets mat prove smaller than imagined. But in a matter of historical
accountability like this, monetary value is less important than
honesty and openness. This reckoning is long overdue."

=======================================================================

	Unsigned editorials are a extensively used to put forth the
interests of the Jewish community.

	The last sentence is revealing on two factors. One that it is
acknowledging the likelihood there is not going to be much found. The
other is that the whole big push by the Jews is not for the $$$$$$$$,
but for historical accountability.

	Not for the money? Write a thousand unsigned editorials or
whatever. Talk themselves blue in the face. The whole thing is in line
with one of the basic motives for the rampant and unrelentless
bellowing of the Holocaust; extorting $$$,$$$,$$$,$$$.


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 26 18:18:44 PDT 1996
Article: 69089 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Mass Grave?
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:54:10 GMT
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <52c4vu$ktc@lendl.cc.emory.edu>, 
>libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>
>>"Convincing" you say?
>>"Andrew Allen, you say?" you say?
>>You say, "You say?"
>>"Now..."?
>>"That..."
>>"is..."?
>>You say, "...very convincing"?
>
>wherezats?

	Over on alt.revisionism article, "Moran/Nizkor Website - coming
up" for one. Thats wherzat you should be, not over here playing Rodeo
Clown. 
	

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 26 18:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 69094 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:53:53 GMT
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reverend@iinet.net.au (AgamemnoN) wrote:
>Irving has tried to enter Australia since 1992. The Labour government
>banned him twice because it was considered he did not meet the public
>interest test of good character.

	Interesting terminology, "public interest test of good
character". "Public interest test". Hm. "Public interest test". Is
that anything like 'socially and/or politically correct'?


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 26 19:26:18 PDT 1996
Article: 69112 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.ethics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,rec.music.christian
Subject: Re: Why do you believe it???????????
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:53:37 GMT
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Dene Bebbington's introduction to his emotional response: 
>The word according to tom moran:

>Moran:
>>       Humanity is such that there are those who believe whatever, and
>>those who come to question.

Mr.Bebbington:
>Simplistic drivel.

>Moran:
>>       It is partially the cause from the evolutionary dynamics of the
>>universe. We all have a piece of each step. Nature is not fair. Some
>>get caught with more primitive genes than others. Thus the tribal
>>instinct is still with us.

Mr.Bebbington:
>ROTFL.

>Moran:
>>       Blind acceptance is probably a genetically based propensity
>>common to many. Maybe to most.

Mr.Bebbington:
>ROTFL.

>Moran:
>>       Thought itself is a evolutionary process. There are two basic
>>ways of thinking. One is the emotional and the other is the empirical.

The end of Mr.Bebbington's emotional response.
>This is rather simplistic claptrap.

	
>--
>Dene Bebbington
>
>"... after all, who'd notice another madman around here?!"

>
>
>
>
>
>Turnpike evaluation. For information, see http://www.turnpike.com/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 26 19:26:19 PDT 1996
Article: 69126 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Mass Graves
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:53:18 GMT
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:
>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>>[a bunch of theorizing]
>
>>>>         So where are the mass graves, exactly? Just one or two of them?
>>>> No one seems to know,
>
>>>(sigh)
>
>>>We know exactly where the ashes are buried:  in Auschwitz, in Treblinka,
>>>in Belzec, in Sobibor, in Majdanek, in Chelmno.  Andrew Allen, a frequent
>>>"revisionist" poster to this forum, has confirmed that core samples taken
>>>at Treblinka found ashes and human remains to a depth of seven meters,
>>>for example.
>
>>	You say, " Andrew Allen, a frequent "revisionist" poster to this
>>forum, has confirmed ... ". 
>
>Yes, Andrew Allen, co-author of the IHR's pamphlet on Treblinka posts
>to alt.revisionism from the userid Ceacaa@aol.com
>
>>	Andrew Allen, you say?
>
>>	"a frequent ... poster", you say?
>
>>	"Confirmed" you say?
>
>Read his pamphlet. Allen is the weed who argues that the mass graves
>at Treblinka prove that there was no Holocaust because the witnesses
>said the cremated bodies were completely destroyed and human remains
>were found in the graves which cover five hectares up to a depth of
>seven meters.
>
>I've described this conclusion to you before. You didn't get how
>stupid it is then, and you won't get it now.
>
>It is an argument worthy of your fine self.

	Is this an indictment of the source or a rave review. 
	
I've read references to his logic. Usually the references are that
"revisionists" say it.
	
	Any test, the one, said to have been done at Treblinka mention
only "some" and "a quantity of", an obvious attempt at trying to word
something into a reality. An attempt at having any mind that reads it
assume it is the sign of mass extermination.

	If I ever saw Allen's stuff in the whole I would tear into if
need be. The same as I have suggested that the Leuchter Report is
insufficient to prove or disprove any mass exterminations at
Auschwitz. I have no problem with turning on revisionists if I get the
notion. 

	I very rarely read any revisionist stuff, so I wouldn't know
about Allen. I get all my doubts from reading the material of the
Holocaust promotional network itself. The record for that is out here.


>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Sep 26 20:38:36 PDT 1996
Article: 69155 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960925: Now they are even swiping our Brownies. . .
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 17:47:13 GMT
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zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:


	All this about the Jews merely shrugging their shoulders when its
time to fess up, is totally true.

	When I was a kid, in the 50s, one of the most publicized pictures
shown after the war was one of the Nazis burning books.
	
	All the hundreds of Holocaust books in our libraries will end up
missing.
	
	The Jews will be burning their own books.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 00:55:11 PDT 1996
Article: 69169 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:55:06 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>                        [repost]
>
>	According to Yehuda Backon, a survivor from Birkenau and settling
>in Jeruselem testified at the Eichmann trial:
>
>Backon: "In the fall of 1944 they (the Sonderkommando) lived inside
>the crematorium, here on top (referring to a "drawing"), while some
>were put up in the gas chambers of crematoria nos.3 and 4."
>
>Judge: "In the attic?"
>
>Backon: "In crematoria 1 and 2, and in crematoria 3 and 4, they lived
>right inside the gas chambers."
>                          ---------------
>
>	"In the fall of 1944" would be about the time of mass gassing of
>the Hungarian Jews, put at 400,000. We might expect that the walls and
>floors of the chambers would be pretty well saturated, imbedded even,
>with the super duper, terrible, omni-potent, lethal, deadly Zyklone B
>and wonder about such a place doubling as a residence.
>
>	Perhaps a document or additional survivor testimony will pop up
>to show that the workers wore their gas masks while bedding down in
>the gas chambers. Who ever comes up with the document should try to
>give it a little extra force by having it show that the workers stayed
>in there during the day seeing how it is said that the mass
>exterminations took place at night.

	This testiomony along with the testimony posted "Kids stay cozy
in gas chambers", was by a Yehuda Bacon, testifying at the Eichmann
trial in the Jewish state of Israel. Eichmann was hung.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 00:55:12 PDT 1996
Article: 69203 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:53:31 GMT
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	"You know, this is _really_ scary.  Imagine Moron and Giwer in a
debate where each speaks its natural dialect.  Imagine you are the
moderator of that debate.  Imagine that you must also _simultaneously_
interpret what each says.

Mark?  Mark?"

McFee


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 00:55:13 PDT 1996
Article: 69204 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran Can't read (again!) (Was Re: Holocaust Specifications For "Proof")
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:54:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
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References: <323c290d.4191107@news.pacificnet.net> <52asfl$ke6@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <52c813$lm5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <3249af53.25185119@news.spry.com> <52cj9a$2vr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>>>: >> >> : No!  Not another Python cascade!  The horror!
>>>: >> >> You're no fun anymore!
>>>: >> >Yes I am.
>>>: >> No you're not.
>>>: >Yes he is
>>>: No he isn't
>>>Oh, look, this is ridiculous
>>No its not.

>+ and

McVay representing the interest of the world Jewish community:
>Moran it is!
 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 00:55:13 PDT 1996
Article: 69212 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Mass Graves
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:53:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 68
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <32493b10.440498@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote:
>> 
>> >If you were referring to the victims of the Holocaust, see
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz for historical documentation
>> >and pictures of the crematoria.
>> 
>> > There are pictures of mass graves around
>> >too; do a search, http://www.nizkor.org/search.html
>> 
>> >-rich
>> 
>>         Okay, that's one way of implying something exist. Go to Nizkor,
>> you say?  Enter "search"? 
>
> 
>
>Only the Moran(tm) can be so stupid. 
>
>Mr. Graves gave the URL, which of course would more than suffient
>information for the rigii unimpaired to go right to the webpage in
>question. However, Mr. Graves, being the kind and considerate soul he is
>(and knowing how stupid the Moran(tm) can be), _also_ suggested that the
>Moran(tm) might wish to use the search engine that the kind people of
>Nizkor recently provided to _search_ for the file in question. 
>
>This wonderfully nifty utility can be found- by all but the Moran(tm) it
>seems -at the follwing URL:
>
>http://search.nizkor.org/search.html
>
>
>The Moran (tm)  is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semite engaged in
>blatant and offensive anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and has generally
>conducted himself with such a complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/m/moran.tom
>
>But what else should one expect from a lying anti-Semite who holds wacko
>beliefs, is intellectually depraved, hasn't the slightest clue regarding
>Supreme Court decisions, or what constitutes a dud at the  box-office? For
>evidence of this please see:
>
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/lies
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-beliefs.960704
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/intellectual-depravity
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-menorah-faq
>http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/moran.tom/moran-schindler-faq
>
>Mark

	Does this mean you don't know what he's talking about either?

You only used those little "_ _" things twice. What's up?
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 00:55:14 PDT 1996
Article: 69216 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust was a Secret/No secret? It all depends.
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:55:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <324afbdc.22408081@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm13-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	I would invite the serious researcher concerned with finding out
the truth or falsity of the Holocaust to keep an eye out for the oft
occurance of references to the secrecy or non-secrecy of the Holocaust
as it was happening. 

	Whether or not it was is a matter of convenience to sell the
reader on whatever particular point they are trying to sell.

	A few examples.

	If the writer is trying to indict the general civilians in the
areas of the extermination camps, then it was no secret.

	If the writer is trying to explain why there is no record of a
master plan, then it was a secret.

	If the writer is trying to shame the United States for complicity
in the Holocaust, then is was no secret.

	Secret, yes? Secret, no? It all depends. It's all right there in
the output of the Holocaust promotional network.  			 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 00:55:15 PDT 1996
Article: 69224 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:54:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <324afb94.22336569@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <52b0ff$6l5@opera.iinet.net.au>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:44826 alt.revisionism:69224

reverend@iinet.net.au (AgamemnoN) wrote:

>Here is an article in todays West Australian (Wed 25/09/96) which you
>might find interesting:
>________________________________________________
>
>IRVING TACKLES PM ON SPEECH
>
>Right-Wing British historian David Irving has challenged Prime
>Minister John Howard to back his claims on freedom of speech by
>allowing him to visit Australia.

>The Prime Minister claimed at the weekend that, under his Government,
>people felt they could speak more freely on controversial issues.

	"Speak freely on controversial issues"? That sounds down right
anti-Semitic.	
	If he said anything like that he must have had a real stormy
concerted foot stompin show of self righteous indiganation waged
against him. I know the foot stompin, self righteous bellowers have a
concerted network in Australia to show their indignation.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 00:55:16 PDT 1996
Article: 69225 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Better dead than alive II
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:54:26 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 963
Message-ID: <324afb8e.22330308@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <324837ba.20276881@news.pacificnet.net>  <3249e3ac.111421019@news.cris.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm13-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

clintongore@win.com (CLINTON/GORE 1996) wrote:

>On Wed, 25 Sep 1996 21:35:22 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
>YOU SMOOCHED:
>
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>
>>>> On your knees before Israel, America. Suffer and rot for the
>>>> Jewish state. 
>
>Sieg Hiel!

	This article shows 955 lines on my program window. Of those 955,
950 or the lines are empty space.(deleted here)  950 lines of empty
space, with 5 lines of empty words.

	It's no wonder the poster likes the empty Clinton/Gore as an
alias(s).
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>long live clinton/gore
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>I LOVE USENET!
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>-----------
>Dole Is popular with the kids these days..
>Especially Since he Started "Stage Diving" at campaign rally's.
>What's Next:Pearl Jam Concert Tour?
>(RIDE THE SNAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
>The Snake!
>R-I-D-E!
>--------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 00:55:16 PDT 1996
Article: 69226 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 22:12:42 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <324affbe.23401784@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322eef53.5469925@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm13-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Yeah.  And another thing:  why aren't there any goyim--sorry,
make that "goyims" on the list of Jews sent to Birkenau?  Obviously,
the Nazis deliberately excluded goyims from this list, thus
proving themselves pawns of the international JOO conspiracy.

Bill

(Tom, please don't include this in "The Best of Billy Anderson. I
mean, it does make you look ridiculous and all, but it really isn't
up to snuff.  It's late.  I'm tired.)


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 08:58:31 PDT 1996
Article: 69294 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morris can't even quote Bacon correctly.[ according to Collins].....
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:01:18 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 47
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References: <32415e43.532827@news.pacificnet.net> <3241a7b2.9725794@news.srv.ualberta.ca>  <3245c31d.102763544@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <3247f92b.4262509@news.pacificnet.net> <32484487.10476860@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.171.20.34
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141



	Okay you guys of the General Editors and Advisory Board of the
new Oxford Francis Bacon, get a load of this one by your Assistant
Editor.

  PS   Did you see the one where he hammers on Mr.Bacon's history?

>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>[re a topic in which Mr. Moran was humiliated which in turn garnered
>this hurt and frustrated response]
>
>>	No wonder this guy is back so soon from his high falootin job he
>>went off to a couple of months ago.
>
>   highfalutin, -ing (haIf&schwa.'lu:tIn), sb. and a. orig. U.S.
>   slang. Also -ten, hifalutin. [f. HIGH a.: the origin of the second
>   element is unknown; it was perh. a whimsical pronunciation of
>   fluting, or a grandiose equivalent of flying or flown.]
>       A sb.  Absurdly pompous speech or writing; bombast.
>       [...]
>       B adj.  Absurdly pompous or bombastic in style.
>                    --from the online OED2
>
>The OED2 gives 1839 as its earliest historical reference, but I am
>*sure* I saw it used in Chaucer. Maybe it was Lydgate. Something
>Middle English anyway.
>
>At any rate, I still hold the position in question. What I "went off
>to a couple of months ago" was a research trip connected with the
>position in question. I have been involved in the same research
>project for over five years.
>
>What I also got a couple of months ago was a shiny new job title. I
>confess that my pleasure about it caused me to describe it in somewhat
>highfalutin terms.
>
>Mr. Moran has simply misremembered the circumstances. And thus much
>for Mr. Moran's powers of memory, to use the Baconian idiom.
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 08:58:32 PDT 1996
Article: 69302 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:53:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <324afb62.22286258@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322eef53.5469925@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


>You're right, Rich.  I really let the side down on that one. 

>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 08:58:32 PDT 1996
Article: 69303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust and the Nuremberg Trials
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 21:53:47 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 33
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NNTP-Posting-Host: pm13-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:

>In all that I've come across on the Nuremberg Trials I've never seen anywhere 
>where the Nazis on trial claimed that the Holocaust did not happen.  They all 
>tried to blame everything on Hitler and on each other.  They weren't part of 
>the evil Jooish conspiracy (tm) were they?  
>
>If the Holocaust did not happen why was the conspiracy needed to purpetrate 
>such a hoax not brought out at the trial - thus nipping it in the bud?  
>
>If the original Nazis didn't deny the truth of the Holocaust where does that 
>leave today's deniers?
>
>allan

	In felony trials defendants aren't usually ask if they did it or
not. That is the first step on arrest. If the authorities don't
believe them then they proceed with showing guilt. 
	Perhaps you could present some scenarios of how any denials would
come to take place.
	Should a defendant jump up from his seat and yell 'I didn't do
it, I tell you. I didn't do it'.
	Would he be ask on the stand.
	Did anyone ever ask.
	And would it make any difference if there were denials. Denials
do nothing.
	
	If you were ever arrested for say murder, and your attorney
allowed the procedures to go forth in the same order as Nuremberg,
guilty or no, you'd be hung.

	Or if you knew any law, and you  defended yourself 'pro per',
you'd be screaming, 'I want my mommy'. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 16:16:08 PDT 1996
Article: 69462 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Better dead than alive II
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:00:05 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:69462 alt.conspiracy:92770 alt.censorship:102860

libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:
>Certainly, the Iranians would never do anything like this.  Why, you
>might just as well expect them to storm our embassy and hold everybody
>in it hostage for a year or so.  It could never happen.
>
>Bill

	When was this, ten, fifteen years ago? And it doesn't say they
are so stupid to shoot down a airliner. I think the only airliner shot
down over their was by the U.S. shooting down an Iranian airliner. Do
you remember? Did you forget? Did you ever know? Or, did you know and
are just trying to get away with something?


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 16:16:09 PDT 1996
Article: 69463 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Scientific Assumptions Admissible
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:00:21 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 12
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>You seem to think that the court's decision was problematic. The court
>accepted an expert opinion for establishing the *minimum* number
>killed at Treblinka by the Nazis. Courts accept expert opinions all
>the time. Why should this one be any different?
>
>Do you think perhaps this court is different because it was a court
>made up of the victors?

> John Morris                               

	I recognize you accept the summary?


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 23:30:20 PDT 1996
Article: 69526 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!news.abs.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 4,000,000 less 3,000,000 still leaves 6,000,000
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:17:38 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <32493e67.1294856@news.pacificnet.net>
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>	 At one time, the figures for those said to have been
>>exterminated at Auschwitz was 4 million, which at this time the
>>current number is 1 million. At least 95% of this current number are
>>said to have been Jews. The overall number of Jews said to have fallen
>>to the Holocaust has been 6,000,000 for some time. Six million when
>>the Auschwitz numbers were 4 million and still 6,000,000 with the
>>Auschwitz numbers at 1 million.
>>	It is alleged that the 6 million figure was never contingent on
>>the now defunct 4 million figure.


>Deniers have been claiming recently that the Soviet figure was the
>figure presented at the International Military Tribunal hearings at
>Nuremberg. Matt Giwer in particular has repeatedly made this claim
>while neglecting to provide a reference for his claim.
>
>The truth of the matter is that the figure entered into evidence at
>Nuremberg was four million, but four million for all concentration
>camps of all kinds. In addition, this figure was not provided by the
>Soviets, as deniers claim, but by the United States based upon
>documents it had collected:

	After Mr.Morris claims the figure was never entered at Nuremberg,
he goes off to expound on statements from sources that make no
reference to any Nuremberg to show it wasn't.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 23:30:21 PDT 1996
Article: 69527 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!tezcat!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poor Old Tommy (Re: What? No rabbis?)
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:32:33 GMT
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Message-ID: <32494020.1736014@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <32436624.5655627@news.pacificnet.net>  <3245382a.1351978@news.pacificnet.net> <324837da.20309452@news.pacificnet.net> 
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># The missing rabbis, Mr.Keren?
>
>Tommy, what's all this about? The Nazis made a list,
>which I posted, of priests who were imprisoned and died
>in Dachau. The list doesn't contain rabbis, as they are
>not priests. If there was a Nazi law that dead rabbis
>should be listed together with dead priests, please
>inform us.
>
>I can see that you are extermely troubled by this list,
>and it's clear why. You want people to think that Nazis
>were not really bad, right? The fact that they killed
>all these priests doesn't help you.
>
>You're terribly upset, thinking "hey, all these Christians
>reading this will now hate the Nazis, damned, what to do?".
>
>Well, gosh, Tommy, I'm sorry about that. But don't
>complain to me. I didn't kill any priests. It was the
>Nazis. 

>-Danny Keren.

	It's obvious Mr.Keren can't come up with anything to explain the
missing rabbis. 
	He says it's a list of "priests" when in fact it is headed with
the term "clergy".
	"Clergy" = religious heads.
	Rabbis are Jewish clergy.
	Mr.Keren tried to avoid and divert for 4 or 5 days from answering
the question, 'Where are the rabbis?'.
	Jews are the 99.99% of the Holocaust story.
	
	I 'appreciate' Mr.Keren's reply. The next time "What? No rabbis?"
gets posted I will automatically include it.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Sep 27 23:30:22 PDT 1996
Article: 69537 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 04:37:16 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net> <3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net> <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <52evdh$l19@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net>, 
>amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:
>
>[a moron wrote]
>
>       So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or Mr.McVay.
>
>>Yes, so??  
>
>>Unlike you, Moron, they have real lives and probably couldn't 
>>be bothered to respond to such an obvious troll.  
>
>Oh! Did Mr. Moran need somethings? Sorry, but he's in my global
>killfile, so I only see his stuff second-hand. (Or is that
>"second-hands?")
>
>Ah, yes, I see.. a moron wishes a web page... 
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/moran-tom/

	Well It looks like Mr.Mittleman was blurting. Most likely it was
bluff that caused him to blurt.

	Evidently he doesn't have the pull he let on he did. 

	So the accepted offer was made, and not until Moran posted, a
number of days later, "So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or
Mr.McVay" did McVay come out to say that Mr.Mittleman was just
trolling and the reason he didn't respond sooner was because he has a
kill file that keeps himself from seeing Moran's stuff and that he got
it "second hand".

	"Second hand". What could that be? Someone e-mailed him to alert
him? He was just browsing and ... no that wouldn't be it since his
auto kill file would have ... but maybe he was looking at someone else
computer and he just happened to see it. Maybe a little bird told him.

	The fact is, McVay wakes up everyday in cold sweats wondering
what Moran has put out here. Sometimes he wakes up in the middle of
the night screaming, having had a dream Moran had posted another one
of his devastating exposes of how goofy Nizkor is. When it's a real
Moranmare, one where Moran has posted one of his comments that deals
directly with the nature of McVay himself, McVay runs into the
bathroom to soak his head in the first thing he sees with immediate
and ready standing water. The same thing he does when the real thing
appears on the screen. McVay says he has a kill file to keep himself
>from  seeing Moran's stuff. That should tell the story right there. He
fears the truth. The straight forward facts.

	Anyway, It's obvious that McVay has nixed the offer that
Mr.Mittleman blurted out. This is no surprise. For Nizkor to allow
Moran to put his stuff in their files, straight forward like, would
have been suicide. The straight forward truth, side by side, eye to
eye with the contents of the goofy Nizkor files, there like the Mona
Lisa next to a pile of ... Nizkor.

	Then there would have been the other problem. Putting Moran's
files into Nizkor, straight forward like, would have jeopardized
Nizkor's awesome, omnipotent, mother of all rebuttal weapons - the
terrible URLs. Especially those where they carry dossiers on various
posters which are supposed to carry discrediting evidence stated by
the poster himself, when in fact the dossier files carry nothing more
than pieces of the posters article with some opposing comment that is
thought by Nizkor to rebut the piece of article.

	Well the story's all here. A Mr.Mittleman claims Nizkor will
allow Moran's stuff into Nizkor files, straight forward like, and the
"Director" of Nizkor, Mr.McVay, comes out sniveling; 'No way.,
Mittleman has no authority here., He shouldn't have said it., What do
you think?, We're crazy?, Allow Moran's stuff into Nizkor, straight
forward like?, Give his stuff URLs? - No way.' 


>-- 
>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 28 00:07:50 PDT 1996
Article: 69551 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!bt!btnet-feed2!btnet!netcom.net.uk!netcom.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: HUGE INTERGALACTIC HOLOCAUST CONFERENCE
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 04:20:25 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <324ca619.1221257@news.pacificnet.net>
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	"Director" McVay of Nizkor, one of the many Holocaust promotional
web sites on the Internet has recently posted;

	"International Holocaust Conference, Washington, D.C." announcing
a upcoming one day closed Holocaust meeting.

	The particulars as opposed to the reality of the title are not
all that corresponding.

     The Jews are big on putting grandiose titles on their
organizations. "International Holocaust Conference".

	What kind of "conference"? What kind of "International"?
participation? 

	One day in a hall at the Holocaust Museum in Washington. A set
itinerary of lectures on various topics, starting at 9:00 AM and
ending at 5:00 PM.

	Who? Well, Jews of course. And a few whoever from a few
university departments.

	"International Holocaust Conference"?

	One day meeting, from 9 AM to 5 PM, with some people sitting in a
room at the Holocaust Museum, listening to a few people from a few
departments.

	"International Holocaust Conference"?

	Awesome title. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 28 16:05:19 PDT 1996
Article: 69669 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:35:46 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <324d7dbe.25026795@199.0.216.204>
References: 
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X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Looks like Giwer has done it again. He has come out and given the
Holocaust Defense League an avenue of diversion from the real problem.

     What? No rabbis?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 28 19:27:11 PDT 1996
Article: 69761 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Better dead than alive II
Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:36:13 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <324d7e21.25126539@199.0.216.204>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:69761 alt.conspiracy:93339 alt.censorship:103056

Tommy the Terrorist  wrote:

>In article <324837ba.20276881@news.pacificnet.net> tom moran,
>tm@pacificnet.net writes:
>>our knees before Israel, America. Suffer and rot for the
>>Jewish state. 
>
>It's a-mazing how far these people have to reach in order to try to cram
>their little "moral" into a story!!!
>
>I mean, we're talking about *U.S.* airliners over *Iran* here.  The U.S.
>has been screwing around with Persian politics since before Israel even
>existed (as the modern state, anyway); the U.S. directly and openly put
>the Shah in power and backed him up; the U.S. was *still* playing games
>over there during Iran-contra, though it'll probably be 30 years until we
>know what in hell they actually were trying to accomplish.  The Iranians,
>obviously, have lots of fond memories of Americans.  Meanwhile, these
>Iranian (Afghan, Algerian, Saudi Arabian... Christian Coalition...)
>fundamentalists tend to act certifiably nuts a good portion of the time,
>and if I had the choice between throwing myself on the tender mercies of
>their regime and taking a soft landing on the water, I think that water
>would look awfully appealing...
>
>There are certain people who think that us alt.censorship folks are
>automatically sympathetic to their cause just because we support their
>right to speak.
>
>Actually, we just like to have somebody to laugh at.

Who is "we"? You can't even use your own name. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 28 19:27:12 PDT 1996
Article: 69765 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:test tygp
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 01:21:44 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <324dcf27.45867812@199.0.216.204>
References: <32342b9d.4352037@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	              Random House Dictionary,
> "grace" - "6. favor shown in granting a delay or temporary immunity".
>
>========================================================================
>		
>	According to some accounts, but not all, the reason the previous
>numbers of those said to have been exterminated at Auschwitz was 3
>million higher than the current 1 million is because the Soviets
>mis-calculated the numbers of people that could be cremated in the
>ovens.
>
>	How they went about this ciphering is not detailed in Holocaust
>accounts, but it would be interesting to see how they went about
>coming up with the 300 percent over estimate.
>
>	The other account of why the old number was so far off is because
>of the intentional conniving on the part of the Poles and Soviets to
>inflate Polish casualties so as to deflate Jewish causalities, or
>something like that. (The full ride down the bumpy dirt road can be
>found on the Simon Wiesenthal web page.)
>
>	If we should accept the either excuse, mis-calculation or
>intentional lie, we are led to wonder about other things.
>
>	First we would have to recognize that this is the only way they
>came up with the 4 million number, in lieu of say, an actual count of
>bodies, which we will recognize would not be available, even if the
>Holocaust story was true.
>
>	But there is one more way that the old number of 4 million was
>arrived at. This was by way of eyewitness accounts. Among these
>eyewitnesses would be Rudolph Ho'ss, the Holocaust story's expert,
>star witness, who testified/confessed that over 3 million people were
>killed.
>
>	Of course we have to eliminate any extraordinary accounts that
>filtered out or were claimed before the end of the war and thus
>investigations as not being a legitimate source of any evidence, and
>the Holocaust dependents, understandably, do not use these sources as
>part of their sales package. If they did, they would have to cite the
>sources of these pre, end of war numbers, and this would tend to be an
>'embarrassment'.
>
>	So in a pure research sequence we have to recognize there are two
>basic claims as to why the number was 4 million in the first place.
>The incredibly wayward Soviet mathematics as put forth by say, Nizkor,
>"The 4 Million Variant" and their source for that, or the intentional
>juggling by the Soviets and Poles as claimed by the Simon Wiesenthal
>Center.
>
>	Since either one of these is the basic statement on the old
>Auschwitz number, we have to recognize there was nothing else, say as
>an actual body count, records or forensic investigations from which to
>deduce any numbers. .
>
>	If there was nothing else at the time, that we should assume
>there was plenty of opportunity for further documentation, we have to
>recognize any other evidence they have for the story is the subsequent
>eye witness accounts. The only eye witness accounts the Holocaust
>dependents dare to use as to any numbers is that of Rudolph Ho'ss, who
>said there were up to 3 million people killed at the camp. We have to
>recognize that since the current number is 2 million less than what
>the star Holocaust witness said, then either the current number is
>wrong or the star witness was wrong, or lying.
>
>	All this would suggest that whatever numbers they had then, and
>were submitted to Nuremberg or any other trials, were founded on real
>shaky grounds. Earth quake shaky.
>
>	Not until around 1980 did the numbers come to be what they
>currently are. The new numbers are founded on the "interpretations" of
>transfer records and rail manifestos with the specific criteria that
>no eyewitness accounts, court evidence, commission reports or
>confessions by Germans were to be trusted or used in the new figuring.
>
>	Is there anything 'funny' about this 'new' number, as it is
>obvious there was with the old one? Well this would involve the
>investigation of the records used and the consideration of any
>interpreting logic. Will all this ever become available to researchers
>who may have suspicions? We can only wait and see.
>
>	The one thing we can conclude as to any shenanigans is that the
>'new' numbers are not all that new. They are said to have been arrived
>at in 1980. Not until the last three years or so did any formal
>announcement of the current revised number take place, leaving a gap
>of about 12 years between the time of arriving at the current number
>and the official announcement. Not only this, but the old number of 4
>million was allowed to be cited hundreds, if not thousands of times in
>the world's medias during this 12 year span without any knowledgable
>parties coming forth to correct them.
>	 
>
>	
>      



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 28 19:27:13 PDT 1996
Article: 69773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: test cr
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 01:21:54 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <324dcf30.45877424@199.0.216.204>
References: <32317280.919279@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.171.20.62
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141




From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 28 19:38:22 PDT 1996
Article: 69783 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 01:21:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <324dcf15.45849907@199.0.216.204>
References: <52b0ff$6l5@opera.iinet.net.au> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:45061 alt.revisionism:69783

Dene Bebbington  wrote:

>AgamemnoN  wrote:
>>Here is an article in todays West Australian (Wed 25/09/96) which you
>>might find interesting:
>>________________________________________________
>>
>>IRVING TACKLES PM ON SPEECH
>>
>>Right-Wing British historian David Irving has challenged Prime
>>Minister John Howard to back his claims on freedom of speech by
>>allowing him to visit Australia.
>
>As far as some of us British are concerned, Irving can stay there once
>he's allowed in.

>Dene Bebbington

	"Some"? How many would that be? 2 or 3?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 28 21:06:17 PDT 1996
Article: 69796 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Who, what, sort of when, but no where, exactly.
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 01:21:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 193
Message-ID: <324dcf36.45882642@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.171.20.62
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Under "Call For Papers", McVay, baby brain director of Nizkor,
the childish Holocaust promotional web site posted the vague
particulars for a school/church/Holocaust seminary to be held stealth
like in Tampa, Florida: 


[Who;]

Presentation proposals are being accepted for the 27th Annual 
Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches to be held 
March 2-4, 1997 in Tampa, Florida.  The conference is sponsored by the

University of South Florida in conjunction with the Tampa Bay 
Holocaust Memorial Museum and Educational Center and the Annual 
Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches. 

[What;]

Conference presentation proposals supporting the theme, Hearing the 
Voices:  Teaching the Holocaust to Future Generations, are invited.  
Subtopics include
 
* Teaching the Holocaust in Public Schools
* The Role of the Helping Professions - Public Health and Community
* Psychological and Sociological Factors in Understanding the 
  Holocaust
* Nazi Genocide and Public Health
* Perpetrators, Bystanders, Victims, Rescuers and Survivors
* Recent Historical Findings and Interpretations
* Role of Christian Leadership:  Past, Present and Future
* Recording the Living History - Survivor and Liberator Testimony
* Literature, Film and Fine Arts
* Role of Mass Media
* Professional Ethics and Ethical Standards
* Teaching the Holocaust in Religious Day and Sunday Schools
* Dealing with Deniers
* The Legacy of the Martyrs - Father Lichtenberg, Dietrich Bonhoeffer 
  and Others
* Memorializing the Holocaust - Museums, Monuments and Archives
* The Holocaust and Other Genocides

[More who and what;]

The Annual Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches was 
founded by Franklin H. Littell and Hubert G. Locke in 1970 as an 
interfaith, interdisciplinary and international organization.  The 
Conference is devoted to remembering and learning from the Holocaust 
as well as encouraging participation of scholars, educators, clergy 
and local communities. 

Papers related to the conference theme and its subtopics, as well as 
papers generally related to the mission and work of the conference, 
are invited.  Also invited are proposals for panel discussions and 
poster sessions (visual displays with brief presentations).  
Presenters are to summarize rather than read papers.  Specific time 
limits for presentations cannot be provided at this time, but please 
anticipate approximately 15 minutes for the presentation of each 
paper within a topic session.  The conference will provide a podium, 
podium microphone and standard audio-visual equipment (overhead and 
slide projectors, standard size screens and flip charts) upon 
request.  Other equipment is available, but rental charges paid by 
the presenter may be necessary. 

SUBMITTING YOUR PROPOSAL
Please send three copies of the following:
1.  A single-page proposal abstract
2.  A brief biographical sketch
3.  A completed presenter's reply form (see below)
Presentation proposals are due no later than September 27, 1996.  
Mail proposals to Dr. Terrance Albrecht, College of Public Health, 
University of South Florida, 13201 Bruce B. Downs Blvd., MDC 056, 
Tampa, Florida 33612-3805  U.S.A.  Receipt of your proposal will be 
acknowledged, and notification of acceptance will be sent by November 

[When? Sometime after March 2.;]

8.  Conference announcements will be distributed in November.  A pre- 
conference workshop for Florida educators is being planned for March 
1-2.

The Conference requires first rights of publication on all papers.  
The Conference has an agreement with a major publisher to publish all 
conference volumes.  Style sheets will be enclosed with notifications 
of acceptance.


[More who;]

Dr. Terrance Albrecht, USF College of Public Health, and Dr. Carnot 
Nelson, USF Department of Psychology, are conference co-chairpersons. 
For additional information about conference content, contact Dr. 
Albrecht, College of Public Health (MDC 56), University of South 
Florida, 13201 Bruce B. Downs Blvd., Tampa, FL 33612-3805; e-mail 
albrecht@cophdep2.coph.usf.edu.

[More what;]

To receive a hard copy of the call for papers and conference 
announcement, contact the Division of Conferences and Institutes, 
University of South Florida, 4202 E. Fowler Avenue, MGY 153, Tampa, 
FL  33620-6600; telephone 813-974-5731; fax 813-974-5421; e-mail 
laura@conted.usf.edu.  This e-mail contains all information included 
in the call for papers and may be printed and used to submit a 
presentation proposal.


[Now heres the where part;]

The Conference will be held in the beautiful Tampa Bay area.  
Conference hotel information will be sent with notifications of 
acceptance. 

[Which means only those accepted will receive the information of where
exactly. This way maybe the information won't get out to any
revisionists. Don't want to take a chance on any opposition. This
conference is for those who are directly Holocaust dependant and those
who are willing to sell out their souls for the lie.]




PRESENTER REPLY FORM
27th Annual Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches; 
Tampa, Florida; March 2-4, 1997
Form to be completed and returned with abstract and biographical 
sketch (3 copies of all documents requested)

Name __________________________________________________________
Position ______________________________________________________
Organization __________________________________________________
Address _______________________________________________________
        Street/Post Office Box
        _______________________________________________________
        City                    State  Zip Code         Country      
Phone ______________________________ Fax ______________________
E-mail ________________________________________________________  
If you want all communication to go to your home, please complete the 
following:
Home Address __________________________________________________
             Street/Post Office Box
             __________________________________________________
             City               State  Zip Code         Country

Type of Proposal Submitted:
____ Paper  ____ Panel Discussion  ____ Poster Session

Title of Paper: ________________________________________________

Topic Selected:
____ General theme - Teaching the Holocaust to Future Generations
____ General theme - Paper Related to the Mission and Work of the 
     Conference

Subtopics:
____ Teaching the Holocaust in Public Schools
____ Role of the Helping Professions - Public Health and Community
____ Psychological and Sociological Factors in Understanding the 
     Holocaust
____ Perpetrators, Bystanders, Victims, Rescuers, Survivors
____ Professional Ethics and Ethical Standards
____ Teaching the Holocaust in Religious Day and Sunday Schools
____ Role of Christian Leadership:  Past, Present and Future
____ Recent Historical Findings and Interpretations
____ Recording the Living History - Survivor and Liberator Testimony
____ Literature, Film and Fine Arts
____ Role of Mass Media
____ Dealing with Deniers
____ Legacy of the Martyrs - Father Delp, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and 
     Others
____ Memorializing the Holocaust - Museums, Monuments and Archives
____ The Holocaust and Other Genocides

Audio-Visual Requests:
____ Overhead projector  ____ Carousel slide projector  
____ Flip chart     



Laura D. Ellenburg, Director
Division of Conferences and Institutes
University of South Florida
4202 E. Fowler Avenue, MGY 153
Tampa, Florida 33620-6600  U.S.A.
Telephone 813-974-5731
Fax 813-974-5421
Internet LAURA@CONTED.USF.EDU

-- 
Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
-----------------------| Remember John Hron
                       |--------------------------------------
     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/			


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Sep 28 21:06:17 PDT 1996
Article: 69816 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the four pieces of physical evidence
Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 22:04:15 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <324afdb8.22883787@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <52es0g$d1n@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm13-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>
>     The four pieces of physical evidence of the extermination of 
>12 million people.  
>
>1)  Ausrotten speech, suspected of being by Himmler, exists only 
>as a recording, not known if ever presented
>
>2)  Wannsee Protocol, which discusses forced emigration but 
>otherwise appears to have been unimplemented 
>
>3)  Vergassnungkeller letter, which uses a word form theretofore 
>unknown in the German language that is construed to mean gas 
>chamber despite the composing words and the structure of the 
>sentence in which it is used.  
>
>4)  insecticide traces, enough said
>
	"Evidence"? Evidence for what? 

>=====
>Read the information holohuggers fear
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
>http://www.codoh.com/
>http://www.webcom.com/~zundel
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 29 09:10:26 PDT 1996
Article: 69890 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: test
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 01:21:39 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <324dcf20.45861001@199.0.216.204>
References: <3244184f.2224846@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.171.20.62
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	test


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 29 11:36:27 PDT 1996
Article: 159140 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <324dcf30.45877424@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <324dcf30.45877424@199.0.216.204>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:14:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <324e8456.1498518@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-9.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 29 11:36:28 PDT 1996
Article: 159142 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <324e3051.1768969@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <324e3051.1768969@199.0.216.204>
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:26:56 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <324b8fca.2402144@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-9.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 29 11:36:28 PDT 1996
Article: 159148 of control
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <324dcf27.45867812@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <324dcf27.45867812@199.0.216.204>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:14:19 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <324e8439.1469243@199.0.216.204>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-9.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141




From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 29 11:52:09 PDT 1996
Article: 69971 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 13:58:58 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 134
Message-ID: <324e8085.520853@199.0.216.204>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net> <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net> <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <52kbj8$oup@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-9.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141





kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>, 
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

	I see McVay's post here seems to be in response to a post made by
Mr.Mittleman. I see an article ID number with Mr.Mittleman's address
attached. I see the second line says he "wrote:" Yet his article is
not here, nor is there any more information given by McVay about where
it was posted in the first place. Was it under some other article, or
is this a McVay forgery? An attempted ploy to disguise his
insufficiency?   

>> Oh, my offer.  That is what you are talking about.  So, when are you
>> going to send along some items to be posted on Nizkor?  Is there some
>> hangup at your end?  What is it you want?

	Well it doesn't carry Mr.Mittleman's usual signature either.
Under the circumstances of the original post, I can see that the
statement is idiotic enough to be Mr.Mittleman,s but there's a bit of
difference in 'style'. All fools express their foolishness in their
own little way.
	Personally I would opt at this point, that it's a forgery. I
realize Mr.Mittleman could come out and cover for the hapless
Mr.McVay. But then we would still have the problem from whence came
the Mittleman post that Mr.McVay was responding to. Is McVay
responding to his own stuff? Who knows. I guess the article ID number
that McVay has supplied could be looked up in Deja News, but I'm not
going to waste time with that. 
	I could be jumping the gun on all this. Who knows, maybe McVay
operates in a building next to an animal shelter and a chimpanzee
broke loose and got to McVay's keyboard.

	But wait a minute. I've heard said, let a monkey pound on a
typewriter for a zillion years and he'll come to write something, but
then there's another peculiarity in this thread.
	McVay's previous/first response was also in response to some
phantom post. That one by a "(Allan Matthews)":
                       ---------------- 
Cut and pasted in its original format:

In article <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net>, 
amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:

[a moron wrote]

       So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or Mr.McVay.

>Yes, so??  

>Unlike you, Moron, they have real lives and probably couldn't 
>be bothered to respond to such an obvious troll.  
                  ------------------
 
	Seems this one has the first four lines without "quoted text"
marks and the last two, supposedly by Mr.Matthews, with "quoted text"
marks.

	It should look more like this:

>In article <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net>, 
>amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:

>[a moron wrote]

>       So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or Mr.McVay.

>Yes, so??  

>Unlike you, Moron, they have real lives and probably couldn't 
>be bothered to respond to such an obvious troll.  
                    ---------------------
	    
	And then there is no signature, which would make it more
official, like:

>=================================================
>            amatthews@cybercom.net
>=================================================
>A monk asked Un Mun, "What is Buddha?"          
>Un Mun replied, "Dry shit on a stick."           
>=================================================
>http://www.cybercom.net/~amatthews/amatthews.html
>=================================================
	 
	Now was that another forgery by McVay? Who knows. I know
Mr.Matthews has his own style of idiocy, but this one was more like
McVay himself. The phrase, "Unlike you, Moron, they have real lives
.." reminds me of a line(s) McVay has used before.
	There is another little peculiarity with this post by McVay. When
you engage your program to respond to it, instead of 'alt.revisionism'
coming up you get "alt.bonehead.matt-giwer". Seems McVay has fondled
around with his rig and coaxed it to insert the extra component
"Followup-To:" with the "alt.bonehead.matt-giwer" tailing which
inserts the childish phony group title to your newsgroups window.
	This other post indicates the escaped chimpanzee theory is no
good here. It is just too much of a coincidence that a chimpanzee
could have broken out twice to type something on McVay's keyboard. 

	So the evidence is pointing to McVay as up to something naughty.

Will Mr.Mittleman and Mr.Matthews come out and cover for McVay? Will
they be able to cite where the articles were posted? Will McVay try to
blame it on the monkey? How would we know the difference between what
a monkey would write and what McVay writes?

	
>If a moron wants moronic blather archived here, he need only
>post it - my global kill file will grab it, thus:

>/tm@pacificnet.net/f=s/home/ftp/pub/people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0996
>and, the kill file having archived it as untarnished moronic (oxymoron),
>will then complete the job with appropriate dispatch:

	So off goes the whole account of McVay's monkey buisness to be
"archived" in Nizkor files. Interesting irony.

>/tm@pacificnet.net/f=j

>whaddamaroon.

>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html


Bibliography:

	The whole thread.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 29 11:52:11 PDT 1996
Article: 69978 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:25:11 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <324b8e90.2088468@199.0.216.204>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net> <3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net> <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net> <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-9.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

	This is a demonstration to show that a computer's time can be set
backwards so that when a post is made, it can look like it was posted
on that date. The date for this post is 9/27/96.

	The following header is from a post by Mr.Mittlemman showing a
posting date of 9/28/96.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


Path:
news2.cais.com!news.cais.net!news1.exit109.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: 28 Sep 1996 07:58 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 118
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net>
<3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net>
<52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 29 11:52:12 PDT 1996
Article: 69996 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 16:42:43 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 134
Message-ID: <324ea6f6.10302447@199.0.216.204>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net> <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net> <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <52kbj8$oup@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-7.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141





kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>, 
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

	I see McVay's post here seems to be in response to a post made by
Mr.Mittleman. I see an article ID number with Mr.Mittleman's address
attached. I see the second line says he "wrote:" Yet his article is
not here, nor is there any more information given by McVay about where
it was posted in the first place. Was it under some other article, or
is this a McVay forgery? An attempted ploy to disguise his
insufficiency?   

>> Oh, my offer.  That is what you are talking about.  So, when are you
>> going to send along some items to be posted on Nizkor?  Is there some
>> hangup at your end?  What is it you want?

	Well it doesn't carry Mr.Mittleman's usual signature either.
Under the circumstances of the original post, I can see that the
statement is idiotic enough to be Mr.Mittleman,s but there's a bit of
difference in 'style'. All fools express their foolishness in their
own little way.
	Personally I would opt at this point, that it's a forgery. I
realize Mr.Mittleman could come out and cover for the hapless
Mr.McVay. But then we would still have the problem from whence came
the Mittleman post that Mr.McVay was responding to. Is McVay
responding to his own stuff? Who knows. I guess the article ID number
that McVay has supplied could be looked up in Deja News, but I'm not
going to waste time with that. 
	I could be jumping the gun on all this. Who knows, maybe McVay
operates in a building next to an animal shelter and a chimpanzee
broke loose and got to McVay's keyboard.

	But wait a minute. I've heard said, let a monkey pound on a
typewriter for a zillion years and he'll come to write something, but
then there's another peculiarity in this thread.
	McVay's previous/first response was also in response to some
phantom post. That one by a "(Allan Matthews)":
                       ---------------- 
Cut and pasted in its original format:

In article <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net>, 
amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:

[a moron wrote]

       So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or Mr.McVay.

>Yes, so??  

>Unlike you, Moron, they have real lives and probably couldn't 
>be bothered to respond to such an obvious troll.  
                  ------------------
 
	Seems this one has the first four lines without "quoted text"
marks and the last two, supposedly by Mr.Matthews, with "quoted text"
marks.

	It should look more like this:

>In article <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net>, 
>amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:

>[a moron wrote]

>       So far no comments from either Mr.Mittleman or Mr.McVay.

>Yes, so??  

>Unlike you, Moron, they have real lives and probably couldn't 
>be bothered to respond to such an obvious troll.  
                    ---------------------
	    
	And then there is no signature, which would make it more
official, like:

>=================================================
>            amatthews@cybercom.net
>=================================================
>A monk asked Un Mun, "What is Buddha?"          
>Un Mun replied, "Dry shit on a stick."           
>=================================================
>http://www.cybercom.net/~amatthews/amatthews.html
>=================================================
	 
	Now was that another forgery by McVay? Who knows. I know
Mr.Matthews has his own style of idiocy, but this one was more like
McVay himself. The phrase, "Unlike you, Moron, they have real lives
.." reminds me of a line(s) McVay has used before.
	There is another little peculiarity with this post by McVay. When
you engage your program to respond to it, instead of 'alt.revisionism'
coming up you get "alt.bonehead.matt-giwer". Seems McVay has fondled
around with his rig and coaxed it to insert the extra component
"Followup-To:" with the "alt.bonehead.matt-giwer" tailing which
inserts the childish phony group title to your newsgroups window.
	This other post indicates the escaped chimpanzee theory is no
good here. It is just too much of a coincidence that a chimpanzee
could have broken out twice to type something on McVay's keyboard. 

	So the evidence is pointing to McVay as up to something naughty.

Will Mr.Mittleman and Mr.Matthews come out and cover for McVay? Will
they be able to cite where the articles were posted? Will McVay try to
blame it on the monkey? How would we know the difference between what
a monkey would write and what McVay writes?

	
>If a moron wants moronic blather archived here, he need only
>post it - my global kill file will grab it, thus:

>/tm@pacificnet.net/f=s/home/ftp/pub/people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0996
>and, the kill file having archived it as untarnished moronic (oxymoron),
>will then complete the job with appropriate dispatch:

	So off goes the whole account of McVay's monkey buisness to be
"archived" in Nizkor files. Interesting irony.

>/tm@pacificnet.net/f=j

>whaddamaroon.

>Nizkor Canada       | http://www.nizkor.org
>kmcvay@nizkor.org   |---------------------------------------------
>--------------------| An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>Search Nizkor:        http://www.nizkor.org/search.html


Bibliography:

	The whole thread.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Sep 29 14:14:22 PDT 1996
Article: 70043 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:56:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <324c316f.12349501@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <322eef53.5469925@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm8-29.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Yes, I'm quite sure you will.  You're dull, Bob.

By the way--you forgot to say "Mommy Professor" again.  You really
ought to see about these memory lapses.

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 11:57:58 PDT 1996
Article: 70200 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:38:24 GMT
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Lines: 20
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	You know, Mr. Harman, my father has made quite a nice living
>diagnosing people like you.

	Ah yes, her father has "made quite a nice living" ($$$$$$)
diagnosing people .... 

>Your obsessive need to attack Edgar Bronfman clearly shows an
>unbalanced mind. 
> 
>Why it is? Were you frightened by a Seagram's bottle as a small child?
> 
>Sara
>
>-- 
>"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>                 Samuel Butler



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 11:57:59 PDT 1996
Article: 70203 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: CLOSED FOR REPAIRS
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:47:10 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	How will the sun set on the Holocaust story? I've often thought
>about that. I mean, say, how will they go about shuting down all the
>Holocaust Museums? Just close the doors? Now their certainly not going
>to put up a sign saying something like, "Due to the discovery that the
>Holocaust was all a lie, this museum will be closed from here on out.'
>I would say it will be something more like, 'CLOSED FOR REPAIRS', then
>never to open again.		 

	A more likely scenario would be the doors are closed with a sign
that says, 'CLOSED FOR RENOVATIONS' and when they open again, it will
be a theme of all sorts of historical persecutions with the Jews
portrayed as the saviors of the day. Of course there would be no
mention of Palestinians.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 11:58:00 PDT 1996
Article: 70235 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:13:07 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 30
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amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote:

>In article <324d7dbe.25026795@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>        Looks like Giwer has done it again. He has come out and given the
>>Holocaust Defense League an avenue of diversion from the real problem.
>>
>>     What? No rabbis?
>
>Why do you expect there to be Rabbis on a list of priests killed at Dachau?  
>Can't you tell the difference?  

"List of priests"? Where does it say that? 

>What an ignorant lout you are Moron.
 No. No. Not that way. That doesn't have any impact. You should be
presenting it with fanfare, WHAT AN IGNORANT LOUT YOU ARE MORAN. 

>allan
>
>
>=================================================
>            amatthews@cybercom.net
>=================================================
>A monk asked Un Mun, "What is Buddha?"          
>Un Mun replied, "Dry shit on a stick."           
>=================================================
>http://www.cybercom.net/~amatthews/amatthews.html
>=================================================



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 11:58:00 PDT 1996
Article: 70236 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Priests Murdered in Dachau
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:12:59 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <324fd55f.285445@199.0.216.204>
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karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote:

>amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) writes:
>
>>Why do you expect there to be Rabbis on a list of priests killed at Dachau?  
>>Can't you tell the difference?  
>
>I hesitate to enter the fray on the side of the cretins, but the original
>list was of "clergy" and explicitly included a couple Muslims, so the
>question "Where were the rabbis?" is not quite as stupid as you suppose.
>
>It is rather insinuative, but exactly what the cretins are trying to 
>insinuate, I don't know. That since there were apparently no rabbis at
>Dachau, rabbis were immune from the Holocaust? Like there weren't enough
>other concentration camps for them, not to mention more directly homicidal
>methods to get rid of them?
>
>Then there's the idiot Giwer who supposes that since there were no rabbis
>at Dachau, there were no Jews there either. I guess he figures that the
>Nazis were so concerned with the religious well-being of concentration
>camp inmates that they would surely have grabbed appropriate clergy for
>every religion represented.

	In the end run, the list of clergy has no rabbis listed, whereas
it should, considering .... 


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 11:58:01 PDT 1996
Article: 70239 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR and McVay are afraid to debate Winston Smith !!!!!!
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:15:09 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 25
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Greg Matson  writes:
>
>There has already been a forgery posted from
>"Gramercy.ios.com" today, traced back to one of
>"huber" nazi-boys.
>
>And, what do you know, it also had the following
>spelling error: "alt.fan.enst-zundel" in the
>Newsgroup list ("enst" instead of "ernst").
>
>You thought ZOG would miss that?? Boy you're stupid.
>
># The super hero Ken McVay will not debate Winston Smith
># on the fraud of the Holocaust.
>
>He-he, ha-ha. Learn to spell, nazi-boy.

	Besides a Nazi being one who denies the Holocaust story, what
else is a Nazi?

>-Danny Keren.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 11:58:02 PDT 1996
Article: 70244 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Mr."Mc Fee"
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:12:45 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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	It is good to see that Giwer has sunk so far into the abyss that
about his only ally left is Moron.

Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 11:58:03 PDT 1996
Article: 70245 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR and McVay are afraid to debate Winston Smith !!!!!!
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:14:57 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
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jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Greg Matson  wrote:
>
>> The super hero Ken McVay will not debate Winston Smith on the fraud of 
>> the Holocaust. Mcvay has retruned all Smith's e-mail and has run like the 
>> communist pinko he is, with his tail behind his liberal legs.
>
>Ken McVay, I'm sure, would be happy to discuss anything about the Holocaust
>here in public, on alt.revisionism.
>
>A "debate" in private is no debate.  If this person wants to "debate," let
>him do so on Usenet.

	Jamie, how about on the campuses, the newpapers and on TV? Do you
think it should be debated there too?


>> Come on Mcvey, that is if that's your real name,
>
>Ironic since "Winston Smith" is of course a pen name.
>
>Posted/emailed;  followups to alt.revisionism.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net        Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/
> Hate mail will be posted.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 13:17:30 PDT 1996
Article: 70283 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Holocaust researchism
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:13:28 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 3
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	The more books there are for the story, the more the lie stands
out. From a Holocaust deniers position, the more the merrier.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 14:23:05 PDT 1996
Article: 70304 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Billy Anderson
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:15:16 GMT
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Has anybody researched the historical relationship between Moranian
and Giwerundian?

Bill


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 15:16:03 PDT 1996
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <324e8085.520853@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <324e8085.520853@199.0.216.204>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 14:12:43 GMT
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 15:16:04 PDT 1996
Article: 159232 of control
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <324dcf23.45864517@199.0.216.204>
Control: cancel <324dcf23.45864517@199.0.216.204>
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:36:18 GMT
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Message-ID: <324fdadf.1693777@199.0.216.204>
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From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 15:47:22 PDT 1996
Article: 70335 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust researchism
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 15:41:33 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>
>	The more books there are for the story, the more the lie stands
>out. From a Holocaust deniers position, the more the merrier.

	The more photos, the more eyewitness accounts, the more of
everything, the more the Holocaust story stands out as a lie.


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 20:37:42 PDT 1996
Article: 70431 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Best of Sara Schwartz
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:14:35 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <324fd5c9.391285@199.0.216.204>
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	You know, Mr. Harman, my father has made quite a nice living
diagnosing people like you.
 
Your obsessive need to attack Edgar Bronfman clearly shows an
unbalanced mind. 
 
Why it is? Were you frightened by a Seagram's bottle as a small child?
 
Sara

-- 
"I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
                 Samuel Butler


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 20:37:43 PDT 1996
Article: 70432 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960929: Message to other students
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:15:40 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 28
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References: 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2934 alt.revisionism:70432

zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:


>Doesn't this letter make you feel RIGHT?  It reminds me of Nietzsche's
>Zarathustra where he writes:  "Slack and sleeping senses must be addressed
>with thunder and heavenly fireworks.  But the voice of beauty speaks
>gently;  it creeps only into the most awakened souls."

	This letter is to the point. It portraits the situation softly,
directly, standing in stark contrast to the bitter, acid nature of the
ADL, Simon Wiesnthal and all the Holocaust dependants. They are full
of "hate". They reek of hate. Their whole reason for existance is to
hate. Jews love hate.

>Let that be your Thought for the Day!
>
>Ingrid
>
>______
>______
>______  Dr. Ingrid Rimland is the author of "The Wanderers" (Bantam Books)
>"The Furies and the Flame", (Arena Press) and "Lebensraum", a trilogy
>spanning seven generations. (Anticipated publication date: 1997).
>http://www.webcom.com/ina
>
>
>------------ END ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 20:37:44 PDT 1996
Article: 70433 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:30:27 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <324fd942.1280741@199.0.216.204>
References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net> <3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net> <52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324b8e90.2088468@199.0.216.204> <29SEP199623354856@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.171.20.36
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <324b8e90.2088468@199.0.216.204>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>	This is a demonstration to show that a computer's time can be set
>>backwards so that when a post is made, it can look like it was posted
>>on that date. The date for this post is 9/27/96.
>> 
>>	The following header is from a post by Mr.Mittlemman showing a
>>posting date of 9/28/96.
>>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>>Path:
>>news2.cais.com!news.cais.net!news1.exit109.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
>>From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Re: Moran/Nizkor Website, McVay shrinks away
>>Date: 28 Sep 1996 07:58 MST
>>Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
>>Lines: 118
>>Distribution: world
>>Message-ID: <28SEP199607580616@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
>>References: <3245f79a.3697276@news.pacificnet.net>
>><3249983c.16178598@news.pacificnet.net>
>><52ent7$28k@orion.cybercom.net> <324cab44.2543961@news.pacificnet.net>
>>NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
>>News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
>
>    What are you yammering about now?  I posted this sometime late evening
>    on the 27th.  If it went out on the 28th, it was simply because the
>    news server at Arizona was down for the evening (they do server
>    maintenance on Friday nights here.)
>
>    But that aside, given the topic we were discussing, what possible
>    reason could there be for pretending to post on a different day than I
>    did, oh wise and illiterate one?  Riddle me that, will you!
>
	You wouldn't happen to have Matthews post on your screen, would
you?
	
>
>     daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>     For more information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project
>     Europe: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>     North America: http://www.nizkor.org/



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Sep 30 23:08:57 PDT 1996
Article: 70451 of alt.revisionism
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From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who, what, sort of when, but no where, exactly.
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:29:02 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <324fd853.1042201@199.0.216.204>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.171.20.36
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>[Now heres the where part;]
>
>>The Conference will be held in the beautiful Tampa Bay area.  
>>Conference hotel information will be sent with notifications of 
>>acceptance. 
>
>>[Which means only those accepted will receive the information of where
>>exactly. This way maybe the information won't get out to any
>>revisionists. Don't want to take a chance on any opposition. This
>>conference is for those who are directly Holocaust dependant and those
>>who are willing to sell out their souls for the lie.]
>
>Or the conference organizers have not yet booked the site for the
>conference. It is, after all, seven months away.

	And then, who will come to know? Those "accepted" for
registration.


>>PRESENTER REPLY FORM
>>27th Annual Scholars' Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches; 
>>Tampa, Florida; March 2-4, 1997

	Considering how it says a pre-conference meeting will take place,
on the 1st and 2nd, we get the idea its only on the 3rd.
                            ^^^^
>>Form to be completed and returned with abstract and biographical 
>>sketch (3 copies of all documents requested)
>
>Is this the "sort of when" referred to in your subject header?
>
>I guess when the Wizard handed out your brain, Strawman, you were not
>aware that it was really only a mix of porridge and pins.
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/




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