The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/moran.tom/1996/moran.0396


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  1 07:35:16 PST 1996
Article: 25677 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news1.io.org!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kids Stay Cozy in Gas Chambers
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:51:46 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 156
Message-ID: <3135af65.136982@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <312dc276.152252@news.pacificnet.net> <4h082o$48e@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-28.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <312dc276.152252@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	 "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"
>
>	"Jehuda Bacon was a 14-year-old member of the truck commando
>	who had to retrieve ashes from the crematoria to spread onto
>	the the icy paths during winter. He saw horrible events there,
>	but also got to know Kalman Furman, who was always friendly to
>	the teens and ready to help. Bacon remembers the '"Aryan"'
>	kapo Jozef Ilezuk--a teacher who allowed children, upon
>	completion of their work, to warm themselves in an empty gas
>	chamber."
>
>New York lawyers have a saying, "If you have the facts, argue the
>facts; if you don't have the facts, argue the merits; and if you
>don't have the facts or the merits, then argue like hell!"
>
>Mr. Moran is about to argue like hell:
>
>	How much did he get to see of the operation while going in and
>	out to get the ashes? "He saw horrible events there".
>
>As if using the ashes of dead people were not horrible enough in
>itself!  Mr. Moran seems to be complaining because the account does
>not include enough lurid details to satisfy his lusts.

	When you say "seems to be", is this anyhting like "assuming"?

>	Where did the kids go after the shift of duty? Since this tale
>	is a continuation of the book's stating how the sondercommando
>	got to make discrete contact at times with the general prisoner
>	population we might assume...
>
>There he goes again!  Using his favorite "research" tool --
>assumption!

	Here, why don't you give us the facts. Or go ahead and give
your theoretical facts.

>
>	...the kids just went back to their barracks. They didn't
>	say anything because the SS told them all the "horrible things"
>	were to be kept a secret.
>
>A pretty fantasy, but even Mr. Moran cannot make anything relevant of
>it, as he does not use it to make any point whatsoever!

	Could it be there is a point but you can't see it? "Secret".
Thats the key term. On the one hand the Holocaust story tells us it
was all calculated to be kept in secret, the sondercommandos were kept
isolated from the rest of the camp, and yet, the story gives us this,
not ot mention how they would speak to prisoners in the womans camp.
And of course, there is that favorite sondercommando star eyewitness
for the Holocaust story who lived for 4 years in the camp to survive
to tell his eyewitness accounts.

>
>	Does this statement say they used the ashes to keep people
>	from slipping on the icy walk ways? Yikes. But hold it. What
>	about those stories about the ashes had to be further pulverized
>	to obliterate any solid remains? Well good thing, what with
>	spreading the remains around on icy paths all over camp we
>	couldn't have any signs of what it might really be.
>
>Again, Mr. Moran has a vivid imagination, but no point to make!
>Perhaps he thinks that by producing long, boring, monotonous posts no
>one will bother to read and he can later claim a "victory" in the
>debate.
>
>
>	Are we to believe that the kids were taken or allowed to go to
>	the gas chamber cellars to warm up? Do they mean they went
>	through the rooms to the stairs, down the stairs to the gas
>	chambers to get warm?
>
>Why does Mr. Moran have such a hard time believing that they could
>walk up and down stairs and through long corridors?
>
>
>	But what about the heat from the raging or idling burnings of
>	multiple furnaces in the cremation area? You'd think it would
>	be pretty warm in there. But then with all those dead bodies
>	stacked up, as the story goes, maybe there wasn't any room
>	for them to stand.
>
>Mr. Moran is a nit-picker of the first water!  He reads Holocaust
>confessions with a jaundiced weye looking for any detail that is left
>out so he can pounce upon it, implying that it is a telling detail.
>
>Perhaps he was not supposed to be in the crematorium.  Perhaps the
>crematorium was closely watched by the SS.  Perhaps there were no
>transports (which would explain why the gas chambers were idle) and
>no fire in the crematoria.
>
>Whatever the reason, one thing is certain -- it was not important
>enough to be noted in the author's personal opinion.
>
>
>	The Holocaust story says the cellar chambers were aired out
>	after each mass murder, which would tend to make them about
>	as cold as the outside.
>
>It seems that Mr. Moran must live in the warmer climes of California,
>as he does not realize that in the dead of winter people will huddle
>in front of a wall to break the wind.  Even though the wall is at the
>same temperature as the rest of the great outdoors, if it cuts the
>wind, it reduces the wind-chill factor.  Likewise, the gas chambers,
>if there were no transports, would cut the wind and also would make a
>good place to hide from the SS for a while.
>
>
>Having failed to grasp such elementary concepts. Mr. Moran now
>embarks on a gay project of building a strawman argument:
>
>	Oh', the chambers were heated the story could go?  But
>	then the story tells how hot buckets of coke were used
>	to heat the cellar chambers for the mass gassing, coke
>	itself giving off carbon monoxide, so it wouldn't have
>	been used to heat the chambers just for the children. 
>
>No kidding!  Too bad Mr. Moran is incapable of realizing that he has
>only destroyed his own hypothetical argument, not any real argument
>advanced by any real person.
>
>
>	Since the Holocaust story has the sondercommandos themselves
>	using the gas chambers as living quarters, when they weren't
>	in use of course, we might suppose...
>
>Again, Mr. Moran supposes and the world is expected to hold its
>breath in anticipation!
>
>
>	...they and the kids all sat around and had chats.
>	Or maybe something like 'Hey you kids, shut up.
>	We're trying to sleep'.
>
>Or perhaps, "May God have mercy on our souls!  The ashes I spread on
>the ice today could have been my mother or father..."
>
>
>	Yup. Something wacky on every page of a Holocaust book.  
>
>If the book happens to have been authored by Tom Moran, Ignoramus
>Extraordinaire.
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Better eat onions all thy life than dine upon geese and chickens once
>and then long in vain for more ever after.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  1 07:35:17 PST 1996
Article: 25684 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news1.io.org!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Germany must perish"
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:09:46 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3135b314.1080484@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <00002fc9+00007646@msn.com> <824432312snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4gd612$2jf@shiva.usa.net> <4gdhtu$a5j@wi.combase.com>  <4gvobo$7ob@wi.combase.com> <4h2agf$n6v@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-28.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <825047823snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>,
>Alexander Baron (A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk) whines:
>
>        ...a few dead goy sailors.
>
>In article <4gvkq5$qco@shiva.usa.net>, I responded:
>
>	The only people on this newsgroup who use the word "goy"
>	at all are the Jew-haters!  No Jew has ever used the term
>	here at all.
>
>In article <4gvobo$7ob@wi.combase.com>,
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@combase.com) whines:
>
>	Does it matter WHERE the term is used?
>
>By using the word "goy" in this context, Mr. Baron implies that Jews
>are racists who could care less what happens to non-Jews.  It is
>important to note that no Jew on this newsgroup has ever expressed
>such a sentiment or used this particular word.

	Goyim is a Jewish racist word for anyone who is not a Jew. It
is nigger, spick, chink, sand nigger, gook and the rest, all in one.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  1 07:35:18 PST 1996
Article: 25691 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news1.io.org!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: porous pillar: F Muller, the false eye-witness
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:34:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <3135bc34.3415675@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4h30nq$clu@Vir.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-28.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>
>
>So now I will repost it, I think it's the time to do so...
>Several peoples here seems to deny the outside concrete part
>since it collide with common sense as soon as we take a look
>at the video.
>The porous pillar, according to Filip Muller testimony, one of the key
>holocaust eye witness, is made of concrete and empty. Inside, the famous
>metallic wiremesh can be found. There's a representation of this pillar
>at the holocaust museum in Washington, and this representation show
>concrete. My sources for that are 1) a photo in a revisionnist book
>(but this one show the maquette of the Polish Auschwitz museum)
>2) a photo in one of Zundel sheet, and this one show the maquette
>that is present at the holocaust Museum in Washington 3) The video
>that I mentionned: 'The holocaust revisited: part 2, Auschwitz-Bikernau",
>Samisdat Publishers, 206 Carlton Street, Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5A-2L1.
>I think it's about 35 canadian dollars plus shippment fees.
>They are talking of the version of the Holocaust museum several times,
>and they talk about a porous concrete pillar, so they took their datas
>from there, I can't ask to McCalden if his source are more than the usual
>maquette that is show . Tom Moran I think did visit this museum a day,
>he may have some further informations.

	Sorry, I didn't take note of any display on the topic. Nora
Levin in her book "The Holocaust" refers to them as "sheet metal". I
would think if the Germans had used HCN in liquid or gas form, or some
other real gas, they wouldn't have needed to make these "porous
pillars", "wire mesh" introduction systems with the function of being
able to extract the unused still active portion of the HCN in the
pellets.
	Nora Levin also describes the introduction system at the roof
level as "mushroom" shaped covers that "screwed on". This mushroom
shape would sound like "bell caps" that are common on vent systems to
keep out the rain. These are commonly found on roofs of industry and
also on residental homes to exaust hot air from attics.
	In "The Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" the exact
dimensions of these introduction pillars are given, including talk
about a inner core that could be lifted out so they could recover the
pellets to "dispose" of. The book gives the lengthy dimensional
discription, yet when your done reading it, it is difficult to
picture. As far as I can figure, it was a wire mesh cage inside of a
wire mesh cage. A actual picture, rendition, would have been worth the
hundreds of words they spent describing it, but then we would be faced
with the absurd nature of it all. 
	The distance from the top to the bottom of this pillar is put
at something like 3 meters, so we could picture the Germans pulling
this ten foot inner cage up out of the outer core.
	Yup. It seems every page of a Holocaust book tells us how
stupid the Germans were.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  1 07:35:19 PST 1996
Article: 25698 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news1.io.org!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:48:36 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <3135c97c.6816302@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3131c94b.223270@news.pacificnet.net> <27FEB96.00226438.0028@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <31347340.269681@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-28.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <31347340.269681@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>
>>>Of course you fail to mention that the overestimate was due to the
>>>fact they did not know exactly how many Jews were in Vichy France,
>>>which they did not directly occupy, even though the passage *QUITE
>>>CLEARLY* states that.
>
>>        The accuracy of any German estimates would be contingent on
>>whether or not the country was occupied. Isn't this what your saying
>>Morrison?
>
>Yes.  Any idiot could see that it would be helpful to be actually running 
>the country if you want an exact accounting of it.
>
>>You mean they went around counting them one by one? Or they
>>got into records of the nations? The nations all had separate filing
>>for Jews so it was easy to count them? Or they had to go through all
>>the records and weed out which ones who were Jews? Or ..., ah, how did
>>they do it Morrison? 
>
>Remind me to tell you all about things called "birth certificates" and
>"public records" which sometimes have things like religion sometimes printed 
>on them.  And records of whatever sort that may have been kept in 
>synagogues.  Or military records that usually list the religion of the 
>soldier.  Or the fact that many Jews in Eastern Europe tended to live in 
>specific areas, making it easier to count them.  And those tax records and 
>marriage certificates and hospital records.
>
>Gee.  That makes at least eight ways to get an accurate counting if you 
>happen to be in charge of the country.
>
>Try again, bonehead.

	Try what again? So you are saying the Germans went through the
millions upon millions of records, "eight ways", one at a time?

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  1 07:35:20 PST 1996
Article: 25708 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.flint.umich.edu!news.gmi.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 15:41:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <3135c8ed.6672563@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3131c94b.223270@news.pacificnet.net> <4gt98i$1sbu@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <31347357.293079@news.pacificnet.net> <4h2qct$1epg@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-28.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>

	Did any of that respond to the accuracy of the figures?



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  1 07:35:22 PST 1996
Article: 25725 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photo Facts
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 14:34:13 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <31370ad8.543482@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <312dc377.409356@news.pacificnet.net> <31306735.415123@news.pacificnet.net> <4gr1t6$17pc@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3131e2d2.6758631@news.pacificnet.net> <4gt5oa$1sbu@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <313343d0.8102920@news.pacificnet.net> <4h2on3$1epg@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
>>>Okay. Are you denying that there were any crematoria at Birkenau?
>>>If not, how does misidentifying the building as a crematorium
>>>promote the "Holocaust story?" 
>
>>	Who denies there were crematoria at Auschwitz? Putting it by
>>the rail road makes it look like it was used for the immediate
>>extermination of those arriving on trains.
>
>Better than expected answer.  Are you saying that the arrivals
>couldn't walk to the Kremas?

	Where is that?

>Now why do the "storytellers" put Kremas IV and V away from the
>rail line? To undermine their own story?
>
>[snip]
>
>>>Sorry. I should have qualified that statement: you and Matt Giwer
>>>are the only people I know of who deny that the building in the
>>>pictures is Krema II. Every "revisionist" writer and every
>>>historian whom I have read accepts that the building depicted is
>>>Krema II.
>
>>	Should we play the 'where are the sources game' for this?
>
>Oh, I suppose we could. Why don't you start with the little
>denier pamphlet, written by John Ball and published by Ernst
>Zuendel, that identifies the crematoria as the same buildings as
>do historians.

	I might even say they, at least part of the buildings were
crematoria, but I don't know where they were.
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  1 07:35:23 PST 1996
Article: 25726 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't going to believe me neither
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 14:55:51 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <31370fa6.1773528@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4gbbnh$o6k@Vir.com> <4gjjgt$tei@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  <31334403.8153835@news.pacificnet.net> <4h2eav$n6v@shiva.usa.net> <3135b5cb.1774846@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3135b5cb.1774846@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <31334403.8153835@news.pacificnet.net>,
>> >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>> >
>> >       For any fat to flow...
>> >
>> >Mr. Moran fancies himself an expert in every subject under the sun.
>> >The reason he thinks he knows something about fat is that he is such
>> >a fathead.
>> 
>>         Katz, is this the best you can do? I take it you are too
>> insufficient to respond to the points, point by point.
>
>What "points?" 
>
>Mark

	Van Alstine, is this the best you can do? I take it you are
too insufficient to respond to the points, point by point.

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  1 14:24:07 PST 1996
Article: 25733 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.frontiernet.net!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: porous pillar: F Muller, the false eye-witness
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 14:44:13 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <31370ce4.1067412@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4h30nq$clu@Vir.com> <3135bc34.3415675@news.pacificnet.net> <4h5v9i$em7@wi.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>	You should not post things like this.  It ruins too many true
>stories.
>
>>	Sorry, I didn't take note of any display on the topic. Nora
>>Levin in her book "The Holocaust" refers to them as "sheet metal". I
>>would think if the Germans had used HCN in liquid or gas form, or some
>>other real gas, they wouldn't have needed to make these "porous
>>pillars", "wire mesh" introduction systems with the function of being
>>able to extract the unused still active portion of the HCN in the
>>pellets.
>
>	It is not clear that the procedures involved in handling the
>liquid form (it is a matter of pressure and temperature) could
>have been safely turned over to medical orderlies (or uniformed
>grunts depending upon the story.)  What is of interest is that
>there is no apparent benefit to these "pillars" over a hole in
>the ceiling in the first place.
>
>>	Nora Levin also describes the introduction system at the roof
>>level as "mushroom" shaped covers that "screwed on". This mushroom
>>shape would sound like "bell caps" that are common on vent systems to
>>keep out the rain. These are commonly found on roofs of industry and
>>also on residental homes to exaust hot air from attics.
>
>	And from the surveillance pictures we have these mushroom shaped
>screw on things are rectangular with the smallest dimension at
>least ten feet.  Screw on?  By which four men?
>
>>	In "The Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" the exact
>>dimensions of these introduction pillars are given, including talk
>>about a inner core that could be lifted out so they could recover the
>>pellets to "dispose" of. The book gives the lengthy dimensional
>>discription, yet when your done reading it, it is difficult to
>>picture. As far as I can figure, it was a wire mesh cage inside of a
>>wire mesh cage. A actual picture, rendition, would have been worth the
>>hundreds of words they spent describing it, but then we would be faced
>>with the absurd nature of it all. 
>
>	And just today I read of someone claiming there were doors on
>them for use in cleaning out the spent pellets.  I wonder which
>of these two are making it up as they go along?  Both most
>likely.

	A case of deus ex machina no doubt. When you need a response,
make one up or cite some witness that made one up years ago.

>>	The distance from the top to the bottom of this pillar is put
>>at something like 3 meters, so we could picture the Germans pulling
>>this ten foot inner cage up out of the outer core.
>
>>	Yup. It seems every page of a Holocaust book tells us how
>>stupid the Germans were.
>
>	For such an efficient, well planned, highly organized operation
>they do appear to have gone to one hell of a lot of wrong headed
>and unnecessary effort.
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Mar  2 09:40:23 PST 1996
Article: 25797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news1.io.org!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Emigration from Germany
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 14:46:57 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <31370da6.1260693@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4h6svb$jvg@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-11.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Archive/File: holocaust/germany emigrate.002
>Last-Modified: 1994/09/19

	And McVay came down off the mountain holding the sacred panel.
And it was the "Holocaust Almanac".


From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Mar  2 09:40:29 PST 1996
Article: 25865 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Krema II: Aerial View for Tom Moran - krema2.jpg (1/1)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 14:56:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <313860ef.1103388@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4g8nau$fuo@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4g9741$73o@wi.combase.com> <4g9njj$mh0@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <324752587wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4gocjk$298m@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <313080eb.6997664@news.pacificnet.net>   <3133440e.8164711@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-9.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <3133440e.8164711@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>
>[snip]
>
>> >It is interesting, however, to see how Ball "interprets" the ariel photos
>> >used in his book. Specific examples are the photos on pages 70 and 71. In
>> >the photos labeled taken on May 31, 1944 (Photo 3 and Photo 6). Ball cites
>> >no smoke from the "burning pits" in Photo 3 (p. 70) and "no smoke rising
>> >from the chimneys or the ground" in Photo 6 (p.71). Yet, if one looks in
>> >_Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp_, p.341, the ariel photograph taken
>> >on May 31, 1944, is labelled as showing smoke over and around Krema V. 
>> >
>> >What is also interesting is that in Ball's photos of this there appears to
>> >be some rather noticeable black "splotches" also over and around Krema V.
>> >In the photo from _Anatomy_ these "splotches" look like white clouds,
>> >obscurring part of Krema V and the grounds around it, and are labelled as
>> >smoke. (It appears that Ball has perhaps adjusted the contrast of the
>> >photos?) 
>> 
>>         The image stated to be smoke in the above mentioned photograph
>> is shown coming up on the back side of the building, that side with
>> out the ell wing, the ell wing classically shown as the section that
>> contains the smoke stack.
>
>Tommy, perhaps you didn't notice that I was _specifically_ talking about
>Krema V? If you'll re-read my above comments more carefully you'll notice
>this: "the ariel photograph taken on May 31, 1944, is labelled as showing
>smoke over and around Krema V." Now, Tommy, Krema V  does NOT have an "ell
>wing." Kremas II and III do. (They are somewhat south of Kremas IV and IV
>in the photo and clearly visable.) The smokestacks of Krema V are located
>along the centerline of the building. If one was to _carefully_ examine
>the photo one will see smoke to the south/southwest immediately adjacent
>to Krema V, partly overlapping the building, as well as to the north. If
>one is would _carefully_ inspect Krema V itself it would be noticed that
>there are also two small plumes of smoke emminating from the location of
>the smokestacks. 
>
	You went from crema II to that referrence. Anyway, I never saw
a rendition of crema V. I was going by the only renditions I've seen.
Do you have any sources for any renditions or plans? Do you know of
any reconstructions? Let me know I would like to check them out.


>Now, why did Ball, in _Air Photo Evidence_, ignore this and claim, without
>explination, that there was no smoke from the "burning pits" in Photo 3
>(p. 70) and "no smoke rising from the chimneys or the ground" in Photo 6
>(p.71)? Photos that were of Krema IV and V. 
>
>Clearly, there was. 
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sat Mar  2 09:40:29 PST 1996
Article: 25867 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Grabner ordered me to pour Zyklon B into the opening'
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 15:09:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <31386498.2040463@news.pacificnet.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-9.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
>[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
>me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
>had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
>openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
>also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
>As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
>trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
>started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
>them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
>as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
>was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
>fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
>higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.
>
>   * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz

	Boy, everyone got into the act. From the camp commodant
himself to the registrar to the Head of the Political Dept.

>
> 
> 
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar  3 08:09:54 PST 1996
Article: 25927 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!dc.daiwa.com!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:54:51 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <3135b01b.318949@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4faroe$h1d@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ftd56$l44@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <312355ff.5950464@news.pacificnet.net>  <312496e4.2067047@news.pacificnet.net>  <3125ebfd.2619867@news.pacificnet.net> <4gd7te$2jf@shiva.usa.net> <312ca0fd.3220637@news.pacificnet.net>  <312ddfca.7659675@news.pacificnet.net> <4h03si$48e@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-28.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history:3823 alt.revisionism:25927 alt.censorship:71879

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <312ddfca.7659675@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:...
>
>	Not one single detailed argument. Not one single specific.
>	Nothing.
>
>The specifics that Mr. Moran would like to see have been interspersed
>in all the posts that deal with his outrageous fantasy life.  But Mr.
>Moran finds it impossible to deal with them as they come up.  Instead 
>he waits for someone to sum up his shortcomings and suddenly he
>demands to know what the specifics, as if he has never seen them
>anywhere else before.
>
>
>	I can only guess that you couldn't come up
>	with anything.  
>
>Mr. Moran can do nothing but come up with self-serving assumptions!
>
>This same sort of "guessing" forms the "logical" basis for all of
>Mr. Moran's "research" into Holocaust issues.

Now theres a sweeping statement without specifics.
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Hold your neighbor's honor as sacred as your own.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar  3 13:15:12 PST 1996
Article: 25933 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.flint.umich.edu!news.gmi.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I lied
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 15:16:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <3139b7a5.3064100@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4harm8$ioe@Vir.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-0.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>Title was: Adolph Hitler and the 7 dwarf (I think)
>
>>McVay didn't write that piece.
>
>>And neither did Ernst Zundel.
>
>>*I* wrote it!
>
>>Did you really think a CANADIAN could write that well???
>
>
>   Well, since you admit that you lied and signed with Ernest Zundel
>   name Mr Leuchter, I'll have to confess that I lied too: I never enjoyed
>   Ken McVay's postings.
>

	Thank god. I thought you were telling the truth.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar  3 13:15:13 PST 1996
Article: 25934 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!homer.alpha.net!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Best he can do?
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 15:13:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <3139b6cc.2846927@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31370ab7.509923@news.pacificnet.net> <4h7lm2$fm6@wi.combase.com> <4hb3ha$pmu@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-0.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>    Some of the questions are for Tom Moran, and some for Mr. Giwer.  
>Let's see if each can correctly figure out which are which!
>
>
>In article <4h7lm2$fm6@wi.combase.com>, Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>>For any fat to flow from the pit to a central basin would
>>>require that the pit be excavated with a considerable slope.
>                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>>>The best
>>>design would be the lengthwise angle plus a grading from the sides to
>>>a trough in the center. Any human fat would not flow well with the
>>>bodies pressing against the excavation floor.
>
>    Who said they were on the floor?  Where?  Exactly?

	Then you are saying it was a bottomless pit?

>>>It would have to migrate
>>>this way and that, stop, then ooze left or right, in short, it would
>>>have to migrate slowly, seep, not run freely. Thus the angle for the
>                                                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>excavation would have to be considerable.
>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>    Well, Tom Moran wasn't able to tell us how many minutes in a slower. 
>Maybe he can tell us how many degrees in a "considerable" angle? 
>

	30 degrees.

>>>Much of the fat would be prone to absorbtion into the earth.
>
>    Really?  Are you sure, Tommy?
>
	Yes.
>
>>>Mr. Moran fancies himself an expert in every subject under the sun.
>>>The reason he thinks he knows something about fat is that he is such
>>>a fathead.
>>	
>>	Katz is obviously unfamiliar with gravity.  There must not be any in
>>his reality.
>
>    How "considerable" a slope is required to allow the force of gravity
>to overcome the surface tension of liquid fat and the friction of its
>contact with the ground, and permit it to flow?  It is not the simple
>presence of some slope which is the issue, it is the required steepness of
>that slope.
>
>    Of course, you knew that.  You just can't be honest about it is all.
>
>-- 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 08:28:02 PST 1996
Article: 26050 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: PRESSAC'S DELIBERATE FABRICATION:
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 14:50:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <3139b1aa.1533121@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <287371659wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk> <4gtfg5$232s@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <313343ee.8132854@news.pacificnet.net> <4h54dq$pmo@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-0.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <313343ee.8132854@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
>
>>
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>
>>>In article <287371659wnr@stumpy.demon.co.uk>, "C:WINSOCKKA9QSPOOLMAIL"
>>> said:
>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>Pressac, a holocaust liar, DELIBERATELY fabricates the visit of SS
>officer
>>>> Pohl to Auschwitz:
>>>
>>>Before we go any further, I would love to know how the quote below proves
>>>that anyone fabricates a visit.  Oswald Pohl was not simply an SS officer.
>
>>>He was an Obergruppenfuehrer, and was head of the Wirtschafts- und
>>>Verwaltungshauptamt (The Economic and Administrative Main Office), which
>was
>>>responsible, amongst other things, for the administration of the
>>>concentration camps.  Hardly surprising that he would visit a
>concentration
>>>camp.  In 1942, the administration of all concentration camps and
>>>extermination camps was transferred to him, along with the appropriate
>>>personnel (Richard Gluecks for example).  Thus, it is hardly surprising
>that
>>>he would visit Auschwitz.
>
>>	Convenient angle to respond to. I believe, McFee, that the
>>post takes issue with the accounting of any visit, not that one didn't
>>occur. What are you saying? 
>
>I am saying that Mr. Robert's post starts off with the words: "Pressac, a
>holocaust liar, DELIBERATELY fabricates the visit of SS officer Pohl to
>Auschwitz".  I then went on to say that it is hardly surprising that Pohl,
>in his capacity of head of the section responsible for the administration of
>concentration camps, would visit a concentration camp.  "Fabricates the
>visit" means that the visit didn't take place and someone made it up.
>                                                                 
	Then you are saying you didn't notice that the wording in the
post was meant to apply to the accounting and not whether or not a
meeting took place?
	What do you have to say about the difference in the accounts?


>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                        



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 08:28:02 PST 1996
Article: 26051 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: PRESSAC'S DELIBERATE LIES
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 14:50:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <3139b1bd.1552015@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-0.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Re: Previously put as "PRESSAC'S DELIBERATE FABRICATION".


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 08:28:04 PST 1996
Article: 26062 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 14:33:08 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <313afe80.522831@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4elet2$k64@zippy.cais.net> <4em2o4$77l@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4eo4o3$5p9@zippy.cais.net> <4eqelp$6bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4er0ji$qg2@mn5.swip.net>  <4f0151$ep7@zippy.cais.net>  <3131e1bd.6481973@news.pacificnet.net>  <31334382.8024597@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> >
>> >OK, fair enough.  How about you, Mr. Moran?  What do you think of Jews, in 
>> >general?  
>> 
>> 	Actually I know a number of Jews. Though I readily associate
>> with them, socially, I recognize there is a certain mind set,
>> universally among them. 
>
>Really?  What is that "certain mind set"?  I think this needs some 
>elaboration and empirical proof.
>
>[snip]
>
>> One of my kids is married to a Jewish girl. 
>
>I wonder, how do your daughter-in-law and her family feel about your 
>opinions about the Holocaust? 
>
>> 	Principles of psychiatry and general human common sense
>> recognizes that people are prone to running on automatic pilot that is
>> programmed from an early age. Now if some group teaches there kind
>> that they are chosen, superior, more brilliant, have a more enduring
>> history and the like, we have to assume there is going to be some
>> manifistations. It is these manifistations from which I get some of
>> my opinions.
>
>OK, I understand...you mean, like the ideology of white supremacy?
>
>
>> 	The biggest problem about Jews is when the operate in unison,
>> for a common cause that benefits them. 
>
>Could you explain this further?  In what ways do you think that all or 
>even most Jews "operate in unison"?  Please give examples.  How much 
>diversity of opinion do you think exists within the American Jewish 
>community (if indeed we can reliably say such a community exists...)?
>
>> 	Only if the Jews recognize and take position in a society
>> along side the rest, apart from conspiring for their own positions,
>> will the cycle of question cease.
>
>Please explain this further.  Are you saying that Jews are not part of 
>"American society"?  In what ways are they not?   In what ways do Jews 
>"[conspire] for their own positions"?   What do you mean by "cycle of 
>question"?  Who do you see as the "questioners?"  What do you think the 
>"questions" are?

	You already got more than you deserve. I gave you a bit of my
personal life and this is the only bit your going to get. As to any
"unison" I just direct you to read up on something like "They Dare to
Speak Out" by Paul Findley and review the full output of "Washington
Reports Mideast Affairs" and "New American View" for starters.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 08:28:05 PST 1996
Article: 26063 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 14:38:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <313aff9c.806518@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <825473265snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4h3amq$h5j@news.enter.net> <4hbp4i$8d7@prometheus.algonet.se> <3139b37c.1999160@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) wrote:

>In article <3139b37c.1999160@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> Henrik Bennback  wrote:
>> 
>> >What is ADL? An organisation?
>> >
>> 
>>         Yup. Their organized to conspire for anything Jewish. They
>> will tell you they are doing it for the good of America and that they
>> are the vanguards of human rights, such as trying to get the congress
>> to enact totalitarian measures and give our last dollar to Israel.
>
> 
>Tom:
> 
>Please explain and give examples of the ADL trying to get Congress to
>eneact totalitarian measures.

	Their activity in trying to get "The Counter Terrorism"
measures in. Their energetic conspiracy to maintain support for
Israel. Their carrying dossiers on Americans that they illegally got
>from  law enforcement agencies.  Thats enough for you now, purrfecto.

>What measures specifically, please?
> 
>Sara



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 08:28:05 PST 1996
Article: 26064 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran in the Headlines
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 14:42:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <313b00fc.1158972@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <4glg42$420@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <312f3ea4.5753448@news.pacificnet.net> <4h09e5$48e@shiva.usa.net> <4h0evu$gkp@wi.combase.com>  <01MAR96.18662840.0029@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <4h83ae$mjr@wi.combase.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Fri, 1 Mar 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
>
>> 	God, you people are stupid.  Some 40% of the footage was special
>> effect, making it look like it was filmed in the time frame in which
>> it was supposed to have occurred.  And they were marginally up to his
>> standards and one was at Ed Wood's level.  
>> 	You folks don't even have a grasp of movie making.
>
>Although I've only seen the film 3 times, 

	Three times? Lets see, 3 into 100 million dollars gross
receipts = 33.3 million.

>I wasn't particularly aware 
>that Spielberg made any attempt to "age" the film for a "documentary" 
>effect.  I could be wrong, of course.  And "special effects" can refer to 
>more than just spaceships and so on...
>
>You wouldn't be thinking of Woody Allen's _Zelig_, where Allen did go to 
>great lengths to distress the film stock?
>
>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 17:22:35 PST 1996
Article: 26070 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Pressac, yes?  Pressac, no?  It all depends?
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 16:16:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 104
Message-ID: <313b1671.6652131@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	

	I imagine that a number of people out here have seen the name
of Pressac mustered up now and then as an Holocaust authority, and
even with a certain regularity as of recently.  As it turns out,
Nizkor has a bio on him and his work under;  Web
Crawler(say)>Nizkor>Nizkor Home Page>Shofar FTP
Archives>pub>camps>Auschwitz>Pressac. I believe most people will be
able to find Pressac by following this simple path, but for all those
who have expressed the need for URLs to get around Nizkor, including
the webmaster and co-webmasters of Nizkor itself, they will just have
to remain in the dark.
	It is interesting that there is a lot of bewailing the
validity of the Holocaust from argumenters by citing their sources
are, among other terms used, "accredited historians" and "PhDs" and
berate others sources as not being put forth by the same, when it
turns out that Pressac is a - pharmacist.

            A critique of Nizkors bio on the life and works of
                          Jean-Claude Pressac.

	"Jean-Claude Pressac is known as a reliable, unassuming
pharmacist ..." in his small village, begins the Nizkor bio.
	He has been "revealed as a respected, if not amateur,
historian on the Holocaust", Nizkor continues, followed by, "The
unusual story of how Pressac became an expert on the Nazi wartime
slaughter of European Jewry...". So, only two paragraphs into the file
we have Pressac posed as an amateur expert.
	After a little treatment on revisionists, the first of a
number of times, Nizkor copy continues "Pressac has never had any
professional training as an historian" soon followed by "Pressac's
scientific background, particuarly in chemistry, stood him in good
stead ..." to pursue the Holocaust.
	Nizkor then tells us how Pressac is a reformed revisionist and
former student of Faurisson but then hooked up with Serge Klarsfeld,
who's wife ended up publishing Pressac's first book "Auschwitz:
Techniques and Operation of the Gas Chambers". The page cites
Faurisson's book 
"Holocaust? Prove it Occured", to lead into their assertion that most
of the evidence for the Holocaust was destroyed by the SS. They say as
to Faurisson's title "That wasn't easy for several reasons" and
continue on to say, evidence "had been systematically concealed" by
Hitler and Himmler. The copy says the orders were "Always highly
discreit", either "oral or written", and any records were "immediatley
burned, historians suspect". They also cite Pressac's assertion that
"crematoria and other physical evidence ..." was destroyed by
retreating SS. How the historians would know abot all this "highly
discriet" "oral" conference Nizkor does not relate.
	Not until after a decade of research "was Pressac able to show
fresh documentary evidence" of the facilities at Auschwitz, "almost
entirely destroyed by the SS in Jan. 1945".  His break through came,
Nizkor says, "with international fame, two weeks ago with the
publication of his new book '"The Crematoria of Auschwitz"'. The
information for Pressac's new book was "largely based on new
information garnered from files taken by the Soviet Army" and were
made available to Pressac 3 years ago by the KGB, "which kept them
secret for 45 years".  Nizkor, who includes statements on other parts
of it's website about the Auschwitz numbers being fabrications of the
Poles and Soviets, states here that Pressac relies "repeatedly" on
these files with which he includes "supporting photos, charts and
notes".  Some of these photos we might assume, being those fuzzy half
tone photos discussed out here recently on alt.rev. 
	Utilizing mighty wording to put their bio across, Nizkor says
Pressac "cooly" recounts "with mind boggling technical detail" how the
SS built the facilities for mass murder at Auschwitz "and by
inference, in other camps". This might infer in itself that Holocaust
faction admits to not having any evidence even remotely as to
facilities of mass murder at other camps, since it took Pressac ten
years to uncover whatever he says he gets from the Soviet files on
Auschwitz. 
        Pressac's study on German "construction firms" and his other
work is "not easily refutable", Nizkor claims. The site states
Pressac's work "ends the dispute among '"professioal historians
sympathetic"' on how the death camps were able to kill millions.
	Nizkor quotes Klarsfeld's wife as saying Pressac's work
"stands as the most complete referrence book on the question", but
soon quotes Hilberg as saying Pressac is "not really a historian
..(Nizkor's dots) and some of his interpretations could turn out to
be erroneous".  As it turns out, Pressac's estimate for the number of
Jews said to have been put to death is 630,000 and Hilberg's is
somewhere around a million.
	Nizkor, for some reason, winds up giving us a three paragraph
account of how Pressac doesn't know enough about Jews or Judaism.
Where this all fits in with the rest, or with evidence, they do not
say. Maybe its if Pressac did know a little more about Jews and
Judaism his numbers would be a little higher. 
	I Tom Moran readily admit I have subjectively highlighted
certain elements of this Nizkor treatment to show it's inconsistencies
and failures as I see it, but I have included the path for anyone to
view the text in it's original form as presented by Nizkor, lest of
course, excluding those who have expressed themselves as not being
able to find their way around by the facilitating system common to
most websites and utilized by Nizkor itself.  Warning; Do not try to
print Nizkor files. You must have "old style" equipment, as specified
on Nizkor's Home Page, to print out their FTP files.
	I would recommend amateur "scholars" who might not have access
to Pressac's limited edition of books to view the Nizkor treatment on
Pressac in it's entirety and see if its credible enough to pursue a
copy of his book.
	One could very well find it worthless if they go by the many
assertions often expressed on this newsgroup that only "accredited
historians" and "PhDs" are capable of historical review.



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 17:22:35 PST 1996
Article: 26071 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No Zyclone - then DDT
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 16:23:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <313b18c8.7250429@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	This is a repost. 
	
		         - DACHAU - 

                      By Marcus J. Smith 
               State University of New York Press

Chapter 19, "The Burial Detail"

	"Many of the big guns of the Medical Corps are loaded, and on
May 3, seventy two hours after our arrival in the camps, the barrage
begins that will bring victory against the body lice, the
misanthropic, parasitic, insects responsible for the transmission of
typhus fever from person to person. The Army has contributed enough
DDT so that dusting of all the inmates at Dachau and Allach can start.
By a superhuman effort the task is completed in five days. In addition
to the inmates. the official quarantine calls for dusting of all other
personel - Army personel, guards, visitors, Allied officials - when
they leave the inner camp for the outer area. Furthermore, these
persons are required to show their immunization records and be given
typhus vaccine, unless they have received the vaccine during the
previous thirty days. We should like to inoculate the inmates at this
time, but such action will have to wait. Despite the mighty resources
of the Army, there is insufficient vaccine on hand."
	                  
	So it seems in the final months of the war, when the food
supplies were having a tough time getting to the camps, even the
Zyclone supply was cut off. And since even the victorious U.S. Army
was short on supplies of typhus vaccine, we can understand what kind
of problems the Germans would have had getting the vital necessities
to the camps while they were undergoing heavy bombardment of their
cities, supplies and routes.   



From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 17:22:36 PST 1996
Article: 26072 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 16:25:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <313b18f3.7293765@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	                       Repost.


   "Fears Rise Over Nazi Weapons Leaking at Bottom of the Baltic"
	          Los Angeles Times, July 18, 1992

	           "Tons of chemical weapons dumped by
                   the Allies after World War II,
                   have nudged the sea to the brink of
                    catastrophe, scientists say." 

	"By tossing 300,000 tons of ready - to - fire weapons - enough
to to kill the entire population of Europe ... The 300,000 tons of
chemical weapons now submerged in the Baltic Sea's greenish brown
waters contain enough active gases to kill 800 million people ..."  

	Interesting connotations. The Germans had all these chemical
weapons, but did not use them, even when they were on the brink, and
here we have the actions of the Allies threatening to accomplish what
the Nazis refrained from doing.

	One wonders why the Nazis would have resorted to using Zyclone
B pellets to exterminate people, in lieu of poison gases they surely
had?  Well we can only assume that Zyclone was used to kill typhoid
carrying parasites at the camps and this is why it was found there.
'Oh look Commoissar, heres a empty can of pesticide.' - 'Nyet, das
must be poison to kill inmates. Ve must report this to Nuremberg.'

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar  4 17:22:37 PST 1996
Article: 26073 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What Nizkor excludes from its dossier on Moran
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 16:32:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <313b1a99.7715973@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-24.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	Repost under new title, from, "Where to find Moran's anti ..."
	
                                                                   
Argumentum ad populum
Nizkor invite accepted
WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS
Holocausterclonism
BIG QUESTION III
Tom Moran is ...
PHOTOS HAVE BEEN FOUND
The Tally Thus Far
"AUSCHWITZ; A History in Photographs"
Pressac, Yes? Pressac, No? It all depends?
Zioexaggeration = 200,000,000
Debby's specifications; her own words
Where are the MASS GRAVES?
Rock and the Hard Place
ADL "friends of free speech" excepting ...
Auschwitz: The more photos I see the more I realize what ...
No Zyclone - then DDT
Zyclone B - powder, pellet, liquid?
80% of U.S. artisans would be Jewish if it wasn't for ...
COMPU SERVE LIED
SUSPICIONS
CENSORSHIP - SIMON SAYS AGAIN
The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
FREUDIAN ADMISSION of INADEQUACY

	


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar  5 07:03:38 PST 1996
Article: 26123 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Stupid Germans VIII
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 13:46:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <313c4589.358605@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	How stupid can you get. As the Holocaust story has it, the
Germans in their policy to keep the whole thing secret built the
buildings of mass extermination with large double windows running the
full length of the building on both sides.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar  5 08:09:54 PST 1996
Article: 26127 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 15:09:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <313c5917.5364195@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4elet2$k64@zippy.cais.net> <4em2o4$77l@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4eo4o3$5p9@zippy.cais.net> <4eqelp$6bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4er0ji$qg2@mn5.swip.net>  <4f0151$ep7@zippy.cais.net>  <3131e1bd.6481973@news.pacificnet.net>  <31334382.8024597@news.pacificnet.net>  <313afe80.522831@news.pacificnet.net> <4hf68t$19f@nimitz.fibr.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>(Mr. Kelly and Mr. Moran snipped)
>
>
>>	You already got more than you deserve. I gave you a bit of my
>>personal life and this is the only bit your going to get. As to any
>>"unison" I just direct you to read up on something like "They Dare to
>>Speak Out" by Paul Findley and review the full output of "Washington
>>Reports Mideast Affairs" and "New American View" for starters.
>
>Mr. Moran, I now see that you are hocking that defunct politician Paul
>Findley, the one who because he was voted out of office, decides to
>lay the blame for his political defeat upon Jews, sounds so much like
>some other person, what was that last name, willis, something or
>other.
>WREMA is just a Ragozine, and a bad one at that.
>

Are you saying he lied?



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar  5 15:10:37 PST 1996
Article: 26137 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Frightened mouse runs
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 16:32:45 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <313c6c0e.10219729@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <312ca0fd.3220637@news.pacificnet.net> <4gj2d8$59u@news.enter.net> <312ddff2.7700210@news.pacificnet.net> <4gl58t$li0@access5.digex.net>  <312E6EF7.743@unb.ca>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>: 1.960224143235.47387H-100000@nevis.u.arizona.edu> 
>:  
>: <4h7v4e$lvf@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> 
>: <3139b1d0.1571129@news.pacificnet.net> <4hf8dh$miv@curly.cc.emory.edu>
>Distribution: 
>
>william c anderson (libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu) wrote:
>: tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: : Laura Finsten  wrote:
 Three more slots added

 1. Michael P. Stein
 2. Charles R.L. Power
 3. Keith Morrison
 4. Mark Van Alstine
 5. Marty Kelley
 6. Sara Schwartz
 7. Laura Finsten
 8. Bill Anderson
 9. Jeremy Litt
 10.
 11.
 12.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar  5 15:10:38 PST 1996
Article: 26138 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Barracks fumigated
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 1996 16:55:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <313c7169.11590053@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <312099b0.2378856@news.pacificnet.net> <4g2enl$ivh@shiva.usa.net> <3129ecd3.8774598@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Marty, may I suggest this post and thread as an example for
your mentioned project for exposing the debating techniques on
alt.revisionism? 


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Mar  6 08:10:34 PST 1996
Article: 26295 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran Forges Testimony (Re: Dr. Muench Testifies About Auschwitz)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 14:47:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <313da552.226016@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <31385e3d.412871@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-26.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>[On the testimony of SS-doctor Muench]
>
	Prof. Keren, the reason I throw in some hypothetical Qs and As
is to show the incomplete nature of the eyewitness testimany that is
presented out here. Recall I modified one of your postings before
where I made the statement.
	This incomplete nature I personally find interesting. There is
a noticable departure from the normal procedure and intensity of
questioning. Yet have I seen any testimony where follow ups for
details had taken place. Sometimes, if it concerns court testimony, I
wonder if the questioning prosecutor is deliberatly avoiding opening
up a can of worms by pressing for details that might conflict with
other testimony or put the witness to the brink of being awkward.
        I often wonder what role the defense attornys played in all
this. Eventually I will do a study on the trials directly. The nation
pretty much has an idea of what lengths the testimony can go into from
the O.J. Simpson trial. You would think that some of the prosecution
of the war crimes trials would have pressed for more details to help
in the overall, but so far I haven't seen it.
	Actually I find your title with the word "Forges" humorous. I
prefer to call it 'modified' or 'filling in the missing should have
beens'.
	I recall the "Leleko Interrogation" put out here by Nizkor,
and how it is no such thing as an "interrogation", but an account with
a couple of mild questions interspersed. It is ripe for
'modification'.
	Did the courts ever take any of the witnesses to the scene of
the crime and have them point out exactly to the best of their
knowledge any grave sites, or where such and such was? Did the defense
ever ask for such verification? Most of the witnesses seem to be just
confessing. Their attornys must have been just crouching around as
mere formalities amid the bitter authoritarian moods of the power at
hand.
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Mar  6 08:10:35 PST 1996
Article: 26297 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Repost] Tom Moran: A Chronicle of Lies (Round 2)
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:00:40 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <313da867.1015288@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4fvkr8$5hd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <313b0704.2702694@news.pacificnet.net> <4hffbp$bpu@atlas.uniserve.com> <313c5898.5236879@news.pacificnet.net> <5MAR199620543528@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-26.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <313c5898.5236879@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>> 
>>	And now, its McVay's turn.
>
>    Already?  But I haven't had a chance to sing my song!!!
>
>    
>
>    "The baloney has a first name its T-O-M-M-Y
>     The baloney has a second name its M-O-R-A-N 
>     Oh I love to see him alibi and try to back track on the fly 
>     As Tommy Moran's reason why^[1] is B-I-G-O-T-R-Y"
>
>    [1] as in "raison d'etre"
>
>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>            Quoth the Raven: "A song with footnotes?  Bologna!"

	Daniel, your slipping. Marty, heres another example for your
expose.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Mar  6 08:10:35 PST 1996
Article: 26298 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't believe it
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 14:59:19 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <313da7e1.881381@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4ftk63$572@wi.combase.com> <3139b943.3478235@news.pacificnet.net> <4hijk9$ro2@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-26.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <3139b943.3478235@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) does it again:
>
>	Fritsch standing at his window wondering...
>
>Once again, Mr. Moran invents a fantasy and thinks it is as valid as
>the testimony or the evidence just because he peoples his fantasies
>with real historical figures.
>
>--
>Harry Katz

	Harry, think of it as satiral comment.

>Ignorance and conceit go hand in hand.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
	Why don't you give referrences to these quotes you put here
Harry so we can check them out for how they really read.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Mar  6 15:12:39 PST 1996
Article: 26300 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:02:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <313da8bc.1100697@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <825473265snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4h3amq$h5j@news.enter.net> <4hbp4i$8d7@prometheus.algonet.se> <3139b37c.1999160@news.pacificnet.net>  <313aff9c.806518@news.pacificnet.net> <826013803snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-26.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Alexander Baron  wrote:

>In article <313aff9c.806518@news.pacificnet.net>
>           tm@pacificnet.net "tom moran" writes:
>> > 
>> >Tom:
>> > 
>> >Please explain and give examples of the ADL trying to get Congress to
>> >eneact totalitarian measures.
>> 
>>         Their activity in trying to get "The Counter Terrorism"
>> measures in. Their energetic conspiracy to maintain support for
>> Israel. Their carrying dossiers on Americans that they illegally got
>> from law enforcement agencies.  Thats enough for you now, purrfecto.
>
>Mr Moran, please stop telling malicious truths with intent. 

	Its the truth they fear. Truths they created themselves.

>-- 
>
>Alexander Baron: InFoText Manuscripts
>
>"He who does not bellow the truth when he knows the truth makes himself
>the accomplice of liars and forgers." - Charles Peguy



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Mar  6 15:12:40 PST 1996
Article: 26301 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:05:46 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <313da91f.1199616@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4hiigv$ro2@shiva.usa.net> <4hir58$g20@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-26.pacificnet.net

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) writes:
>>
>>  Mr. Moran will tell you that he is not a Jew-hater, that he is just
>>  being "objective," but that is yet another lie from his bottomless
>>  arsenal.  If he were truly objective he could name the legislation
>>  that the ADL sponsored that is "totalitarian!"  He cannot name any
>>  such legislation because he is a liar.
>>  
>>>>>
>	Strangely enough Moron has never denied the fact that he is an 
>anti-Semite.  He weasels, he dodges, he evades, he ignores, but he never has 
>denied his rather obvious obsession.
>
>	--YFE

	Yale, "anti-Semitism" is a crime under U.S. and many state
laws. Its your charge. Put your charge where the law is. File a
complaint with the authorites. Or you can do a detailed treatment
right out here. 
	Your Honor, I Yale Edeiken charge this man with anti-Semitism.

	His Honor: Do you have any proof?

	Yale: No.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Mar  6 15:12:40 PST 1996
Article: 26303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans IX
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:40:51 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <313db0f3.3203665@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <313c4d2f.2316736@news.pacificnet.net> <4hi934$it7@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-26.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Laura Finsten  wrote:

>5.  Ease of accessing roof to place Zyklon B.
>
>
	Hey, wait a minute. This is what Harmon cited.
Maybe you would like to offer some theory on why the Germans went on
to built the other two, IV and V above ground. Did they suddenly
figure out to built ladders or stairs, or did they realize they could
just toss it inside through openings in the side?

	Are you and Purrfect speaking up for Jamie? 
	
	Jamieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Come out, come out, where
and whatever you are.


From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Mar  6 15:12:41 PST 1996
Article: 26304 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.luc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!paladin.american.edu!solace!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Actions of the Righteous and Who Needed Zyclone B
Date: Wed, 06 Mar 1996 15:29:47 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <313dad59.2281145@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <313b18f3.7293765@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-26.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>
># One wonders why the Nazis would have resorted to using Zyclone
># B pellets to exterminate people, in lieu of poison gases they surely
># had? 
>
>What do you think is easier to use? Zyklon-B or, say, nerve gas?

	How is it professor that you cited only one alternative for
example? Is it convenient? How about liquid HCN? Spread it out on the
floor, the surface area is wide and exposed to immediate action, no
pellets left over with 50% of the agent still in the product, quicker,
with no waste.

># Well we can only assume that Zyclone was used to kill typhoid
># carrying parasites at the camps and this is why it was found there.
>
> From the statement of Hans Stark, registrar of new arrivals, Auschwitz:
>[Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 255].
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>At another, later gassing -- also in autumn 1941 -- Grabner* ordered
>me to pour Zyklon B into the opening because only one medical orderly
>had shown up. During a gassing Zyklon B had to be poured through both
>openings of the gas-chamber room at the same time. This gassing was
>also a transport of 200-250 Jews, once again men, women and children.
>As the Zyklon B -- as already mentioned -- was in granular form, it
>trickled down over the people as it was being poured in. They then
>started to cry out terribly for they now knew what was happening to
>them. I did not look through the opening because it had to be closed
>as soon as the Zyklon B had been poured in. After a few minutes there
>was silence. After some time had passed, it may have been ten to
>fifteen minutes, the gas chamber was opened. The dead lay
>higgledy-piggedly all over the place. It was a dreadful sight.

Fictional satirical modification to this testimony.

	Grabner the camp Political Officer decides he's going to try
some gassing. He says to himself, 'Now who can I get to help me with
this and throw in the pellets of insecticide?' 'Oh yea, theres that
Stark over at teh regstrars office I had lunch with the other day,
maybe he'll do it.'

	You know Keren, what with all these different people from
various depts. getting into the act we have to wonder what kind of
plan and system the Germans had for this alleged ongoing process.  

>   * Maximillian Grabner, Head of Political Department, Auschwitz
>
>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Wed Mar  6 15:12:43 PST 1996
Article: 26333 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!panix!news.denver.eti.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz Engineers, II
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 16:40:58 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <3139ca2e.7809071@news.pacificnet.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-0.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>
>Engineer Fritz Sander testifying on March 7 1946
>[Quoted from the interrogation transcripts by Prof. Gerald Fleming
>from the University of Surrey, in an NYT article, July 18 1993]
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>I decided to design and build a crematorium with a higher capacity. I
>completed this project of a new crematorium in November 1942 - a
>crematorium for mass incineration, and I submitted this project to a
>State Patent Commission in Berlin.
> 
>This "Krema" was to be built on the conveyor belt principle. That is
>to say, the corpses must be brought to the incineration furnaces
>without interruption.  When the corpses are pushed into the furnaces,
>they fall onto a grate, and then slide into the furnace and are
>incinerated. The corpses serve at the same time as fuel for heating of
>the furnaces. This patent could not yet be approved by the Main Patent
>Office in Berlin, because of its classification (as a state secret).

 Q. You mean to say that in even during the war effort in the
totalitarian system out to kill all the Jews you needed a patent.

 A. Well yes. We were planning on selling it world wide and we wanted
to protect our interests.

>Q. Although you knew about the mass liquidation of innocent human
>   beings in crematoriums, you devoted yourself to designing and 
>   creating higher capacity incineration furnaces for crematoriums - 
>   and on your own initiative.
> 
>A. I was a German engineer and key member of the Topf works and I saw
>   it as my duty to apply my specialist knowledge in this way to help
>   Germany win the war, just as an aircraft construction engineer builds 
>   airplanes in wartime, which are also connected with the destruction 
>   of human beings.
    
    And besides I recognized the existing operational design all with
its cellars, stairs, small rooms and doors, many windows and lack of
body storage facility as totally inane so I saw it as a opportunity to
rise through the ranks.
> 
>
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Mar  7 09:00:02 PST 1996
Article: 26460 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Just ask for Rachelle"
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:16:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <313eef1a.367503@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-27.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Tom Moran had posted an expose by way of a listing of a number
of examples of exaggerations and racist murmurings. One example was an
ad placed in the New York Times by the Jewish National Fund claiming
they had planted 200,000,000 trees in Israel.
	Seeming not to have much dispute with the posting of the other
10 or so examples of racist and ethnocentric murmurings, the usual
Holocaust swarm on alt.rev. focused on the posting of the 200,000,000
trees.
	It all seemed to culminate, thus far, under a post by John
Morris "Moran's fingers and Moran's toes".
	Moran had simply ask for the proof, photographic proof,
instead of the sketch the Jewish National Fund supplied to show it was
a true statement.
	Eventually, Yale Edeiken, a alt.rev. regular blurted out that
he had found photograghic evidence. 
	He directed Moran to the Allentown Penn. library and to ask
for a Rachelle, who had the books on hold. 
	Moran ask Mr. Edeiken to just supply the photos, thus the
titles. Mr.Edeiken only got more agressive and indignant. Moran ask
again "WHERE ARE THE PHOTOS".
	Mr.Edeiken just kept on evading. Moran ask, "WHERE ARE THE
TITLES", and yet nothing civil or relevant from Mr.Edeiken.
	As usual, Mr.Edeiken's brethren swarm jumped in to support and
mimic his evasions, the full exchange still there, dancing around on
"Moran's fingers and Moran's toes".
	For now ...
	
                          Mr. Edeiken: 

 	"No you lying little scumbag.  There is no "endorsement" for
any of your lies.  This one was just such an outrageously easy one to
dispute.  What everyone has said is that you are a cowardly little
bigot who can't support a single one of his Moronic claims.  On the
other hand, when one of your Moronic challenges was accepted you did
not even bother to respond (except with a lie). 
       I take it this is an "endorsement" of those who have pointed
out that you are a liar and an anti-Semite."
                     -------------------

"Which is exactly what you asked me to do.  I went I checked.  They
were there.  They were at the Allentown Public Library.  Go see for
yourself, if you do not beleive me.  I asked a very helpful librarian
to have them held for you. Just ask for Rachelle."
                    --------------------

	"The pictures are waiting for you at the Allentown Public
Library.  It's at 12th and Hamilton and is very hard to miss.  The
pictures were very easy to find.  There are lots of pictures there and
a very kind librarian who will help interpret then for you.  Her name
is Rachelle (and she has read your posts).  
Why don't you just go there and check?"
                       ----------------------

Right where you challenged me to find them.  At the Allentown Public 
Library.  If you do not believe me, go and look for yourself.  It's
right at 12th and Hamilton.  It's very hard to miss.
                       ----------------------

And oddly enough when I found a library that had the photographs 
that L'il Tommy wanted to see he threw a tantrum.
                       ----------------------

	"No you lying sack of shit.  When you asked for a library that
had them, I checked out a library and they were there.  I am sure
others could do the same.  What happened was thatt, even though you
were directed to a place that met you conditions you have resolutely
refused to do so.  That is your problem.  It might be rectified by
long hours on a psychiatrist's couch; it will not be rectified by
lying about what other people have said."
                       ---------------------

	"That is why Rachelle, a very nice lady by the way, is waiting
for you.  She will explain the pictures to you and explain what they
mean.  That way we can all be sure that you now know that any
intelligent person -- in which number you are not included -- can go
to the library and see pictures of trees in Israel." 
                       -----------------------
                    
       "Her name -- given twice -- is Rachelle."
                       ______________________
    
	  Okay, there we have some of Mr.Edeiken's stuff.
 
The phone number for the Hamilton Street Branch (Main) of the
Allentown Public Library is (610) 820-24??.*             

	        BUT DON'T ASK FOR RACHELLE. 
                      She's not there.
                       She never was.
                      She never will be.
                     She's does not exist. 
        
       No one at the Allentown Library never heard of her.
                     
          She's a figment of Mr.Edeiken's fabrication. 




                           ________

* Last two nos. left out so as not to make it too easy to call for
varification, and not disturb the library. Calling information will
show that the investigation did procede at least that far. Perhaps Mr.
Edeiken will come out and fess up and save anyone from having to go
through the trouble of verifying the lies.	

	
                    _________________________


From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Mar  7 09:00:03 PST 1996
Article: 26461 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The means of controlling typhus spread
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:24:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <313ef176.971623@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4hi8b0$nkt@wi.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-27.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>	Question.  While I was gone for a few days, did anyone get around to
>posting one of the primary means of preventing the spread of typhus? 
	Zyklon B. What else? Black Flag? Raid? 
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
>          Commentary from the right side of the curve
>Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
>            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
>  One finger is all a real American needs to deal with the government.
>It takes a village idiot and other truths children have already learned.
>          
>                       Good luck, Mr. Gorski
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Mar  7 09:00:04 PST 1996
Article: 26462 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: c3w Rabbi Weiss & Lipstadt on Auschwitz 4,000,000
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:16:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <313eefa8.510088@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4g8pe0$itp@reader2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-27.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

costplan@ix.netcom.com(Kaus T. WASP/WISE-not Project) wrote:

>Auschwitz 4,000,000 Deniers
>
>In addition to D. Lipstadts confirmation of the Auschwitz 4,000,000
>(Beyond Belief)
>
>Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
>Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance.
>
>"More than 4,000,000 people perished [at Auschwitz]; almost three
>million of them were Jews."

	This can't be true. Simon Wiesenthal says the 6,000,000 figure
has never been based on this 4,000,000 figure. I realize there are
scores, perhaps hundreds of other examples that state from 2,000,000
to 4,500,000 Jews died at Auschwitz, contrary to the currently
accepted 1,000,000, but Simon says. 

>"Walter Deyaka and Fritz Carl Erbel were the gas chamber
>architects - tried in 1962."
>
>Why do y'all neo-Nazi WASP-Supremacists continue to deny
>Lipstadt & Rabbi Weise on the Auschwitz 4,000,000?
>
>macZuga
>
>http://home.aol.com/WASPnot
>
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Mar  7 09:00:05 PST 1996
Article: 26463 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans VIII
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:16:54 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <313eefc2.535353@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <313c4589.358605@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-27.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
>	
># How stupid can you get. As the Holocaust story has it, the
># Germans in their policy to keep the whole thing secret built the
># buildings of mass extermination with large double windows running the
># full length of the building on both sides.
>
>That, I must say, is news.
>
>You're not suggesting that the gas chambers has large windows,
>right? So what are you talking about? The cremation furnaces?

	Now Professor, you know exactly what we're talking about right
here. The basic surface building, the "buildings of mass
extermination", the ones commonly referred to as "crematoria", the
ones with all the windows in them, the ones that look like the ones
you present on a website, the ones depicted in Holocaust books. You
know.

>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Mar  7 09:00:05 PST 1996
Article: 26464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans VIII
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:17:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <313eefda.559520@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <313c4589.358605@news.pacificnet.net>  <4hi8h6$nkt@wi.combase.com> <4hjmso$aq8@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-27.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:

>mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>	Furnaces, plural?  Excuse me but the picture of the Krema posted here
>>and the one on the Nizkor site indicate only one furnace per Krema.  
>
>No they don't.
>
>Just so that we are all singing from the same songbook, as you
>are so fond of saying, here, yet again, is a list of numbers of
>crematoria at Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau:
>
>Krema I - Auschwitz Main Camp - three bi-muffle furnaces
>Krema II - Auschwitz- Birkenau - five triple-muffle furnaces
>Krema III - Auschwitz- Birkenau - five triple-muffle furnaces
>Krema IV - Auschwitz-Birkenau - two quadruple-muffle furnaces
>Krema V - Auschwitz-Birkenau - two quadruple-muffle furnaces
 Krema VI - Auschwitz-Birkenau. You forgot the proposed "Krema VI"
with the bi triple quadruple mega-muffle furnaces.

>Added together that makes for an effective burning power of 52
>cremation ovens in five crematoria. That's "furnaces, plural."
>
>--
> John Morris                               
> at University of Alberta     
>------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
> The Nizkor Project: An Electronic Holocaust Resource
>  File archives - ftp://ftp.almanac.bc.ca
>  Web page - http://nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Mar  7 09:00:06 PST 1996
Article: 26465 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moron Weasels Again
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:30:07 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <313ef23e.1171989@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <313da91f.1199616@news.pacificnet.net> <4hlbvq$2sg@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-27.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>  >>  
>>  >>>>>
>>  >	Strangely enough Moron has never denied the fact that he is an 
>>  >anti-Semite.  He weasels, he dodges, he evades, he ignores, but he never has 
>>  >denied his rather obvious obsession.
>>  >
>>  >	--YFE
>>  
>>  	Yale, "anti-Semitism" is a crime under U.S. and many state
>>  laws.
>
>	Bullshit.  There is no such law on the books of the United States or any 
>state.  If there is such a law please cite it right now and you most certainly will 
>have a complaint lodged against you.

	"Hate crime" laws. I don't know what the one is in California
and I don't plan on looking into it. That's something for you to do.
Check out any that the U.S. has.
	Or you can just present your case here. Go for it Yale.

>>. Its your charge. Put your charge where the law is. File a
>>  complaint with the authorites. Or you can do a detailed treatment
>>  right out here. 
>
>	This is the second time you have made this challenge.  I will now state 
>publically what I have stated in an e-mail to you.  I ACCEPT.  Since there is, 
>dispite your assertion, no law against being an anti-Semite and there is no private 
>right of action about it, the courts cannot accept the matter (read the Constitution). 
> There are, however, alternate methods of dispute resolution which will take this 
>matter.  The most prominent such body is the American Arbitration Association 
>which has procedures for the informal resolution of disputes by impartial arbitors.  I 
>am willing to submit my accusation to an arbitor or board of arbitration.  If you do 
>not want to use the AAA there are other such bodies the only conditions I place 
>on this are as follows:
>
>	1.  The Federal Rules of Evidence are to be used.  (Any arbitration must 
>use some rules.  These are nationally accepted.)
>
>	2.  The Federal Rules of Civil Procedure relating to discovery are to be 
>used. (Same reason as #1)
>
>	3.  Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 52 shall be used. (This requires 
>specific findings of fact to be made.  This means that the arbitrator cannot say "he 
>wins, you lose.")
>
>	4.  The loser shall pay all arbitration fees (arbitrators do not work for 
>free), all stenographic fees for depositions (court stenographers do not work for 
>free), and all witness fees incurred as a result of the frivolous refusal to make 
>stipulations of fact.  Each litigant is responsible for his own attorney's fees and 
>travel expenses.
>
>	O.K. L'il Tommy the ball is in your court.  Your challenge has been 
>ACCEPTED (again).
>
>	I'm waiting for your answer.
>
>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Mar  7 13:00:46 PST 1996
Article: 26477 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Nazis I
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 15:06:15 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <313ef988.3037956@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <313c4d2f.2316736@news.pacificnet.net> <4hi934$it7@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <313db0f3.3203665@news.pacificnet.net> <4hl6u9$srl@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-27.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>Stupid Nazis.
>
>Actually believed the German war machine was capable of taking
>on the entire world and winning.
>
>WWII didn't happen - face it.

	Poor McVay. He sits at his desk straining whatever facilities
he has only to come up with something witty that has nothing to do
with the subject at hand. McVay, why don't you take a spin in you
little sportscar with a bottle of your favorite beverage. Don't forget
to put on your most fashionable garments. But don't say anything to
anyone or your image will be shot.


>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>        Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>        European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Thu Mar  7 13:00:47 PST 1996
Article: 26489 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.his.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran in the Headlines
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 1996 14:39:00 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <313ef41b.1648573@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <4glg42$420@cmcl2.NYU.EDU> <312f3ea4.5753448@news.pacificnet.net> <4h09e5$48e@shiva.usa.net> <4h0evu$gkp@wi.combase.com>  <01MAR96.1 <4hd6n8$d4l@news.nyu.edu> <4hl88h$11lq@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4hle8s$jgi@wi.combase.com> <07MAR96.01754448.0034@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-27.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Keith Morrison  wrote:

>In article <4hle8s$jgi@wi.combase.com> mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) writes:
>>
>>>>: Aha!  So we can add cinematography to Mr. Giwer's formidable
>>>>qualifications : as a historian, photographic expert, chemist, linguist,
>>>>Web page expert, and : just about anything else y'all could imagine.  Why
>>>>does he waste his time : with little worms like us?
>>
>>>>You forgot, he's also an expert lawyer, an expert archaeologist, Judaic
>>>>Studies expert, and an expert biologist.  What a Reneissance man!
>>
>>
>>>Shit.  I'm so stupid that I couldn't even list all his qualifications
>>>correctly.  It's tough to be in the presence of genius.
>>
>> As I have noted, McFly, it is only in comparison to you folks that it
>>it appears unusual.  From my point of view it is no more than the
>>minimum a person should have to be considered well educated today.
>>Your position speaks for itself.
>
>Well if you want to play that sort of game, Giwer, I will be getting
>my degree in Science in two months in geology, I have some
>experience in computer programming, I am a certified firefighter in
>the Province of New Brunswick, I was an Officer Cadet in the
>Canadian Forces who took Civil Engineering for two and a half years,
>I have two papers being used as supplementary reading at a US
>university (neither in my primary academic speciality), I enjoy
>writing fiction in my spare time, I have a rather large personal
>library that runs the gamut from science fiction to history to
>science to classics like _Ben Hur_, _Moby Dick_ and _Beowulf_.
>
>I have taken courses in biology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics,
>geology, history, computer science, English and mathematics, I
>currently am responsible for the operation of computer systems
>installed in the house, I've fished, farmed and cut wood with my
>father since before I could walk, I was nationally certified at
>officiating softball, recieved Canada's highest award in Scouting, I
>was on the debating team that won the provincial championships on
>the first try in high school, I've officiated six sports and played
>five of them, have managed and assistant-managed two seperate
>sports.  I set up my High School's Safe Grad program during a
>teachers' boycott, I've DJ'd on a university radio station and for
>dances involving upwards of 1500 people, I've done tech work at
>concerts, was asked to shoot a music video for a band, served on the
>executive of a bunch of committees of various organizations and
>served as an unofficial "legal" counsel and advocate for a residence
>during a disagreement with the university administration.
>
>I've been doing unofficial editing of essays and papers for people
>in faculties from Arts to Phys Ed, I was awarded for precision
>shooting at military college, I'm certified in first aid/CPR and use
>$100 000+ analytical machines.  I've coached adults and children,
>fought forest fires and helped build houses.
>
>I've met a Prime Minister and a Soviet General when the USSR was
>still the bad guys, given presentations in front of children, fellow
>students and on church (none of which had to do with what goes on
>here), I was a member of my high school Reach For The Top team,
>recieved recognition in national academic competitions in math and
>twice took science projects to provincial competition.
>
>Above and beyond that I also take the time to amuse myself with
>witnessing people like you make loud claims about how extensive
>their education and experience is while claiming that people like me
>have none worth mentioning.

	A degree in geology, yet he has had to eat crow right out here
on the subject. He also quite blindly and flippantly said antenna
design ahd nothing relevant for transmission. Among other things. What
we can really go by in lieu of Keith's list of self boasting is his
stuff right out here. He's an idiot.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
>
>No, the above is *not* my resume.  My resume has my address 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  8 10:19:14 PST 1996
Article: 26614 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:56:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <31403c4a.492951@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4eo4o3$5p9@zippy.cais.net> <4eqelp$6bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4er0ji$qg2@mn5.swip.net>  <4f0151$ep7@zippy.cais.net>  <3131e1bd.6481973@news.pacificnet.net>  <31334382.8024597@news.pacificnet.net>  <313afe80.522831@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-25.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> 
>> >On Tue, 27 Feb 1996, tom moran wrote:
>> >
>> >> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >OK, fair enough.  How about you, Mr. Moran?  What do you think of Jews, in 
>> >> >general?  
>> >> 
>> >> 	Actually I know a number of Jews. Though I readily associate
>> >> with them, socially, I recognize there is a certain mind set,
>> >> universally among them. 
>> >
>> >Really?  What is that "certain mind set"?  I think this needs some 
>> >elaboration and empirical proof.
>
>Mr. Moran did not answer this question.
>
>> >> One of my kids is married to a Jewish girl. 
>> >
>> >I wonder, how do your daughter-in-law and her family feel about your 
>> >opinions about the Holocaust? 
>
>Mr. Moran did not answer this question, saying that he would not divulge 
>any further details of his private life.  I respect that decision, and 
>withdraw the question.
>[snip]
>
>> >> 	The biggest problem about Jews is when the operate in unison,
>> >> for a common cause that benefits them. 
>> >
>> >Could you explain this further?  In what ways do you think that all or 
>> >even most Jews "operate in unison"?  Please give examples.  How much 
>> >diversity of opinion do you think exists within the American Jewish 
>> >community (if indeed we can reliably say such a community exists...)?
>
>Mr. Moran did not answer this question.
>
>> >
>> >> 	Only if the Jews recognize and take position in a society
>> >> along side the rest, apart from conspiring for their own positions,
>> >> will the cycle of question cease.
>> >
>> >Please explain this further.  Are you saying that Jews are not part of 
>> >"American society"?  In what ways are they not?   In what ways do Jews 
>> >"[conspire] for their own positions"?   What do you mean by "cycle of 
>> >question"?  Who do you see as the "questioners?"  What do you think the 
>> >"questions" are?
>
>Mr. Moran did not answer this question.
>
>> 	You already got more than you deserve. I gave you a bit of my
>> personal life and this is the only bit your going to get. As to any
>> "unison" I just direct you to read up on something like "They Dare to
>> Speak Out" by Paul Findley and review the full output of "Washington
>> Reports Mideast Affairs" and "New American View" for starters.
>
>No, no, no, Mr. Moran--I didn't ask you what Paul Findlay believes about 
>Jews; nor did I ask what "New American View" believes about Jews.  I 
>asked what YOU believe about Jews, and why.  I respect your right to 
>privacy, and so I withdraw my question about how your daughter-in-law and 
>her family feel about your opinions on the Holocaust.  But would you 
>please answer my other questions?  Or at the very least, would you 
>identify the ideas in the publications you mention which you agree with 
>most strongly?

You've been getting my views on Jewish activity out here for four
months. You have them to now. Review them and wait for more.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  8 10:19:15 PST 1996
Article: 26616 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 13:59:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <31403cfb.669370@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4faroe$h1d@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ftd56$l44@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <312355ff.5950464@news.pacificnet.net>  <4ges9o$lbj@wi.combase.com> <4gfmtm$s3g@larry.cc.emory.edu> <4gm2cm$b1b@byatt.alaska.net>  <313B53BC.14F4@kaiwan.com> <199603050808.AAA10165@rbi.rbi.com> <313BFA81.4A8C@kaiwan.com> <4hni5n$ko4@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-25.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <313BFA81.4A8C@kaiwan.com>,
>Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com) demonstrates why he is an inadequate
>scholar and thinker:
> 
>	In other words, if Auschwitz and/or Birkenau had this kind of
>	crematory capacity, and if as you acknowledge it was not used,
>	then obviously there was no plan to murder all the
>	Jews of Europe.
>
>And when Ford or General Motors or Chrysler lay off workers, close
>down some plants, and operate others at less than peak capacity, that
>proves that "obviously there is no plan" to produce cars in America
>or to sell cars to Americans!
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Thy own deeds make thy friends or thy enemies.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
Katz, you should put down the source referrence for any of these so we
can check them out for they really say.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  8 10:19:16 PST 1996
Article: 26617 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't believe it
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:05:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <31403db1.851557@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4ftk63$572@wi.combase.com> <3139b943.3478235@news.pacificnet.net> <4hijk9$ro2@shiva.usa.net> <313da7e1.881381@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-25.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <313da7e1.881381@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <3139b943.3478235@news.pacificnet.net>,
>> >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) does it again:
>> >
>> >       Fritsch standing at his window wondering...
>> >
>> >Once again, Mr. Moran invents a fantasy and thinks it is as valid as
>> >the testimony or the evidence just because he peoples his fantasies
>> >with real historical figures.
>> >
>> >--
>> >Harry Katz
>> 
>>         Harry, think of it as satiral comment.
>
>"Satiral?" New word Tommy?  
>
>Tommy, your caricature of literay prowess is itself a satirical comment.
>
>> >Ignorance and conceit go hand in hand.
>> >       -- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
>
>> Why don't you give referrences to these quotes you put here
>> Harry so we can check them out for how they really read.
>
>The irony is too great to bear! ROTFL! Obviously, Tommy Moronic, is too
>dull witted, like a beast of burden, to recognize a reference when it is
>in the very next line below the proverb! 
>
>It seems Tommy's self-immersion into his fantasy world has gotten a bit
>out of hand. 

	Van Alstine's response. He found a diversion to focus on in
stead of the main contents. Evidentally he can't do it. He see's Moran
leave off a couple of letters from a word and he tells hiself, 'A loop
hole for me to harp on to avoid a direct response'.

>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  8 10:19:17 PST 1996
Article: 26618 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't believe it
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:00:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <31403d56.760821@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4ftk63$572@wi.combase.com> <3139b943.3478235@news.pacificnet.net> <4hijk9$ro2@shiva.usa.net> <313da7e1.881381@news.pacificnet.net> <313eeef9.335097@news.pacificnet.net> <4hnenm$cm5@aphex.direct.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-25.pacificnet.net

hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>In <313eeef9.335097@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>
>>	Well heres a critique of Nizkor but where is McVay? I guess
>>we'll just have to wait for some of the others to step in and tell us.
>
>Actually Tommie, there was a ZOG meeting that day, and all the
>Nizkorites - including Mr. McVay - decided that in the interest of
>conserving bandwidth (and not seeing any sign that you have mastered
>the art of taming your rigii and noticing that you and Mr. Giwer are
>becoming increasingly indistinguishable, so that - as in this
>particular post - you appear to be talking only to yourself) we're
>just going to ignore you.
>
>However, since Mr. Katz was not able to attend the meeting, and hadn't
>read our new secret protocols of responding to Tommie, he did respond.
>And his response does bear repeating:

	Hmm. Witty. Aside from that - nothing.


>
>Message-ID: <4hijk9$ro2@shiva.usa.net>
>
>In article <3139b943.3478235@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) does it again:
>
>	Fritsch standing at his window wondering...
>
>Once again, Mr. Moran invents a fantasy and thinks it is as valid as
>the testimony or the evidence just because he peoples his fantasies
>with real historical figures.
>
>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Ignorance and conceit go hand in hand.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
>
>
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/myssiwyg.html
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  8 10:19:18 PST 1996
Article: 26619 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: You won't going to believe me neither
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:13:40 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <31403f68.1290353@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4gbbnh$o6k@Vir.com> <4gjjgt$tei@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>  <31334403.8153835@news.pacificnet.net> <4h2eav$n6v@shiva.usa.net> <3135b5cb.1774846@news.pacificnet.net>  <31370fa6.1773528@news.pacificnet.net>  <313c6055.7218408@news.pacificnet.net> <4hnh1s$ko4@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-25.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <31334403.8153835@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whined:
>
>	For any fat to flow...
>
>I replied:
>
>	Mr. Moran fancies himself an expert in every subject under the
>	sun.  The reason he thinks he knows something about fat is that
>	he is such a fathead.

	You have to check out Morrison's self posted credentials for
someone who claims to know everything. I myself will just respond to
whatever is relevant.

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) continues whining:
>
>	Katz, is this the best you can do?
>
>How can I help it?  Look at the material I have to work with!
>
	This is a yes.

>	I take it you are too insufficient to respond to the points,
>	point by point.
>
>When Mr. Moran responds to any one of the many points he has been
>ducking and dodging since he started posting, then I will consider
>responding in kind.  But as long as he posts lies and slanders and
>avoids responding to legitimate questions, I will respond as he
>deserves.

	Evading again. The way to do it is identify any material
directly and show it.
>
>As everyone knows, Mr. Moran is fond of posting erroneous opinions as
>"facts," and of promising to back them up with solid evidence
>sometime in the nebulous future (which never comes!).  There is no
>need to respond point by point to the accusations of a known liar.
>It is sufficient to point out that he is a known liar, and, in Mr.
>Moran's case, apparently proud of it.

	"As everyone knows"? Everyone? Wow. Well anyway, show your
stuff. "Erroneous" - "liar"? Go for it.

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>Love those who reprove thee, and hate those who flatter thee; for
>reproof may lead thee to eternal life, flattery to destruction.

>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.
Do you have exact passages to identify?


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar  8 10:19:18 PST 1996
Article: 26620 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photo Facts
Date: Fri, 08 Mar 1996 14:14:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <314040b1.1619957@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <312dc377.409356@news.pacificnet.net> <31306735.415123@news.pacificnet.net>  <2MAR199619101108@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <313b1308.5779043@news.pacificnet.net> <4hnfqm$ko4@shiva.usa.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-25.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <313b1308.5779043@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
>
>	Typical response to a statement. Danny, why don't you address
>	the situation directly?
>
>Perhaps for the same reason that Mr. Moran himself never addresses
>the issues directly.

	Examples?

>--
>Harry Katz
>
>On the soul's appearance before the Divine Tribunal, the first question
>will be, "Hast thou been honest and faithful in all thy dealings?"
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 10:44:49 PST 1996
Article: 26773 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: [Repost] Tom Moran: A Chronicle of Lies (Round 2)
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:24:20 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <3142e5c1.143134@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4fvkr8$5hd@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <313b0704.2702694@news.pacificnet.net> <4hffbp$bpu@atlas.uniserve.com> <313c5898.5236879@news.pacificnet.net> <4hsd4h$j70@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <313c5898.5236879@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
>
>>
>
>>	And now, its McVay's turn.
>
>Brilliant, Tom.

	Does this mean that McVay won't be responding, McFee? It seems
a common practice for one or more of the little swarm to jump in and
respond for another and the other never returns. What is this? Some
kind of ploy to divert the pressure away? What can we call this
practice?  McFee, what do they call those clowns at rodeos that get
into those antics to draw the bucking horse away from the rider after
he falls off?  You wouldn't know right off hand would you? 

>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>               



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 10:44:50 PST 1996
Article: 26774 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: sheet metal?
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:24:39 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <3142e619.231399@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4hktai$bfp@wi.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net

mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>	We now have a very long post comparing descriptions of columns in
>translation.
>	We are still left with the trivial point.  A simple hole in the
>ceiling would work just as well. 

	But Giwer, I think the Holocaust story tellers should have
some kind of eyewitness testimony that would show that the victims
scooped up the pellets and tossed them back outside. Just because the
Germans had figured out to put lids on the holes and side portals of
other crematorii doen't mean that they thought of it with II and III.
This is probably why they put in those hollow concrete and/or wire
mesh and/or sheet metal columns, to keep people from sweeping up the
pellets. But then again it could have been that the Germans realized
that 50% of the HCN was still in the pellets and wanted to recover
them for other uses. In fact I believe there is some testimony to
this. One account has it that they were recovered for use else where
and another account that says they were "disposed of". 
	Evidentally, for some reason, when they built IV and V they
didn't find it necessary to incorporate a recovery system.
	You know how it is. According to Holocaust story tellers the
Germans did some stupid things and they don't give us a reason why the
Germans would have put in recovery systems at II and III but not in IV
and V.
	
>---------------------------------------------------------------
>              http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/
>          Commentary from the right side of the curve
>Maintaining http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/tech/ (tips and tricks for webs)
> http://www2.combase.com/~mgiwer/mgiwer4/ (eye candy, blantant advertising)
>            http://www2.combase.com/~matt/  (my son)
>  One finger is all a real American needs to deal with the government.
>It takes a village idiot and other truths children have already learned.
>          
>                       Good luck, Mr. Gorski
>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 10:44:51 PST 1996
Article: 26775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: j*ws sue to kill Black baby
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:56:01 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <3142ecad.1915289@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4hev10$uo8@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com> <826016250snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <3142D5E5.56F@itn.is>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Elias Halldor Agustsson  wrote:


	Then there was the recent report of the Israelis tossing out
the donated blood of the Ethiopians. They said it was out of fear of
tainting the blood supply with AIDS virus. 
	Why didn't they just tell the Ethiopians at the door of the
clinic that they couldn't take their blood instead of inviting them
in, taking their blood then pouring it out the back door?


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 10:44:51 PST 1996
Article: 26776 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans IX
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:08:14 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <3142ee5a.2344089@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <313c4d2f.2316736@news.pacificnet.net> <4hi934$it7@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <313db0f3.3203665@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <313db0f3.3203665@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:
>
>> Laura Finsten  wrote:
>> 
>> >5.  Ease of accessing roof to place Zyklon B.
>> >
>> >
>>         Hey, wait a minute. This is what Harmon cited.
>> Maybe you would like to offer some theory on why the Germans went on
>> to built the other two, IV and V above ground. Did they suddenly
>> figure out to built ladders or stairs, or did they realize they could
>> just toss it inside through openings in the side?
>
>"When the chamber was full, the SS guard shut the doors and one of them,
>wearing a gas mask, climbed a ladder or a chair. When the SS doctor on
>duty gave a sign, the SS man would pour Zyklon B pellets into the
>opening." [1]
>
>"The first gassing in crematorium IV did not go well. An SS man, wearing a
>face mask, had to climb a little ladder to get to a 'window,' then open it
>with one hand and pour in the Zyklon B with the other. This acrobatic
>routine had to be repeated six times." [2]
>
>Tommy, which other "openings in the side" are you suggesting the Zyklon-B
>could have been "tossed" through? There were only two gas-tight exterior
>doors (three after it was realized that the gas chambers wouldn't aerate
>properly) and the seven "windows," which in fact were 30 cm x 40 cm
>opening at about three-fourths   the way towards the ceiling and were
>covered with gas-proof flaps.
>
>Now, I would hope (forlornly probably) that even you, Tommy, would
>recognize the absurdity of an SS man, wearing a gas-mask and holding a
>cannister of Zyklon-B, opening the gas-tight exterior doors with panicky
>victims on the other side? That would just leave the seven "windows." The
>very same "windows" that were used to introduce the Zyklon-B in the first
>place! 
>
>Well, Tommy, I must say, with such a "demonstration" of your intellectual
>prowess, you'll never be accused of intelligent thought! 
>
>
>>         Are you and Purrfect speaking up for Jamie? 
>>         
>>         Jamieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Come out, come out, where
>> and whatever you are.
>
>Tommmmeeeeee, your stupidity is showing. Again.

	According to the Holocaust story, Jamie McCarthy representing,
the Germans built the Crema II and III gas chambers underground to
keep the victims from knocking the walls down.
	Evidentally the Germans finally figured out something else
when they built Cremas IV and V.
	
	Theres the original post, which makes whatever Van Alstine
wrote irrelevant. He is just playing the rodeo clown by diverting to a
selected angle to respond to. Nevertheless I thank him for bringing
another stupid German deed to my attention:
	"The first gassing in crematorium IV did not go well. An SS
man, wearing a face mask, had to climb a little ladder to get to a
'window,' then open it with one hand and pour in the Zyklon B with the
other. This acrobatic routine had to be repeated six times." [2]
> 
>Mark
>
>
>
>1. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.172
>
>2. Anatomy of the Auschwitz death camp / Gutman & Berenbaum ed.; p.234
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 10:44:52 PST 1996
Article: 26780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Another Subject About Which Moron is Ignorant
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:45:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <3142ea74.1346211@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3130810f.7033146@news.pacificnet.net> <4gq4o8$cel@news.enter.net> <3131e2fb.6799605@news.pacificnet.net>  <4hthil$ila@access1.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net

mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article ,
>Mark Van Alstine  wrote:
>>In article <3131e2fb.6799605@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>>moran) wrote:
>>> Any telephoto lens would have brought the barracks on the
>>> horizon into larger perspective than what is shown.
>>
	"Telephoto lenses also decreases the field of depth."
>
>    Well ... sort of.  Actually, the depth of field is mainly controlled
>by the F-stop.  Telephotos tend to have higher minimum F-stops than normal
>lenses.  Low F-stops put a very small depth of field in focus. High
>F-stops give you a larger in-focus depth of field. 
>
>    I realize the preceding discussion will not make sense to anyone 
>whose experience with cameras is limited to Instamatics and the other 
>idiot-proof cameras sold nowadays.  However, SLR owners will understand.

	Stein, you have here that Moran wrote "Telephoto lenses also
decreases the field of depth" to respond to. Could you point out from
where you got this quote?
 
>Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
>POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
>Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 10:44:53 PST 1996
Article: 26781 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stupid Germans VI
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 14:51:43 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <3142ebde.1708167@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3139b224.1655164@news.pacificnet.net>  <4hj41b$au4@wi.combase.com>  <4htf9m$m06@wi.combase.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net

mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:


	Down the road I'M going to have to check out the tales of
Treblinka and see how many engines from Russian tanks were used to
killed hundreds of thousands of Jews.

	Maybe its something like 'News Flash: Engine from Russion tank
kills hundreds of thousands of Jews'.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 10:44:54 PST 1996
Article: 26784 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: c3w Rabbi Weiss & Lipstadt on Auschwitz 4,000,000
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:48:18 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <3142f9b5.5251653@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4g8pe0$itp@reader2.ix.netcom.com> <313eefa8.510088@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:


>
>Hmmm, no mention about "the 6,000,000 figure" never having been based on
>the "4,000,000 figure." Now, I haven't yet been able to find a statement
>by Simon Wiesenthal that says what you claim he did, so, Tommy, why don't
>you help me out here by posting a cite for your assertion? 

	Is this like asking someone if they have seen your glasses
when in fact their sitting on your nose? Here you ask for the proof
and then end up posting it below yourself, which I isolate and mark
with a ">>>>".

>BTW, Tommy, while we're on the topic of citations, you said: "I realize
>there are scores, perhaps hundreds of other examples that state from
>2,000,000 to 4,500,000 Jews died at Auschwitz." Really? How about you
>being a sport and  providing cites for a score or two of those hundreds of
>examples? From reputable historians, of course. 

	Now notice it says "perhaps" hundreds. As to the "there are
scores"? See McVay's "Auschwitz: The 4 million Gambit" for a nice
list, to which you can include these two examples here in this post.

>However, just in case you "meant" the Simon Wiesenthal CENTER:
>
>"The 6 million figure can be demonstrated by comparing Europe's Jewish
>population before and after the war. Even after making allowances for
>those who fled Europe and others who could be expected to die due to
>natural causes, there are nearly 6,000,000 people who cannot be accounted
>for."
>
>"The figure of 3-4 million murdered at Auschwitz-Birkenau was an invention
>of communist officials in Poland (and the former U.S.S.R.) which sought to
>blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering at Auschwitz. To do this, they
>purposely overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at
>Auschwitz-Birkenau by many times their true numbers. In a clever attempt
>to disguise the subterfuge, the figures for Jewish losses were inflated by
>nearly double, so that their losses would still be larger than those of
>non-Jewish victims, though now by a much smaller ratio. With the end of
>communism in Poland and the former Soviet Union, officials at the
>Auschwitz museum finally lowered the casualty figures in line with the
>estimates of historians who, for years, have insisted that between one and
>1 1/2 million people perished at Auschwitz-Birkenau, 80 - 90% of them
>Jews....

        >>>> "The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the
Holocaust has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."
>
>Source: Responses to Revisionist Arguments
>
>http://www.wiesenthal.com/resource/revision.htm
>
>My, doesn't THAT sound familiar, eh, Tommy? Didn't Lipstadt say
>essentially the same thing? That the Russians downplayed the number of
>Jews who died at Auschwitz?
>
>> >"Walter Deyaka and Fritz Carl Erbel were the gas chamber
>> >architects - tried in 1962."
>> >
>> >Why do y'all neo-Nazi WASP-Supremacists continue to deny
>> >Lipstadt & Rabbi Weise on the Auschwitz 4,000,000?
>> >
>> >macZuga
>
>Might as well ask how macZuga breathes with his head up his ass. It's a
>mystery. 
>
>
>> >http://home.aol.com/WASPnot
>
>Oh, Lordie! The demented tike, macZuga, has a webpage? From AOL no less!
>(Check out his cute little swastika....) Oh, well. 
>
>Thank goodness for killfiles. At least I don't have pay attention to the
>idiot. macZuga, that is. I haven't put you, Tommy, into my killfile. Yet.
>As nutty as you are, macZuga is still nuttier. (Besides I'm still having
>fun making fun of you....)
>
>
>Mark
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 
>
>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 10:44:55 PST 1996
Article: 26785 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!usc!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Trees of Israel - trees.jpg (0/2)
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:16:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <3142f144.3090080@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4hp4c3$1jui@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4hp55q$1jui@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <3141941f.155492@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net

t08o@unb.ca (MORRISON  KEITH MURRAY) wrote:

>In article <3141941f.155492@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
>>         You better make that 199,999,999 trees. It looks like one of
>>them was cut down to make a flag pole.
>
>
>Alright, let's put this subject to bed for the final time.
>
>Yesterday I took the liberty of of ambushing two forestry and one forest 
>engineering student and put several questions to them:
>
>1.  How far apart to you usually plant trees?
>
>2.  How close together can trees in a healthy stand grow?
>
>The answer for (1) was that you can plant, for example, jack pine two paces 
>(around 2 meters) between seedlings.  The answer for (2) was from 2 to 4 
>meters for a juvenile stand and more for an old-growth (ie over 100 year 
>old) forest.  Obviously you cannot use old-growth numbers for Israel.
>
>Finally one of them volunteered this data:  over the last thirty years 100 
>million trees have been planted in the province of Nova Scotia.
>
>As a point of note I did not mention *why* I wanted this information so 
>there was no possibility of bias by the respondees.  The data from Nova 
>Scotia came out when I mentioned after recieving the preceeding answers that 
>there was a discussion about how packed 200 million trees would have to be 
>to fit in 8000 square miles.
>
>I leave it as an exercise for Mr Moran to find out the physical area of the 
>province of Nova Scotia.

	Okay, Morrison has finally put it all "to bed for the final
time". He specifies a certain kind of tree, and he uses Nova Scotia, a
natural geologic area that trees are indigenous to, in comparison with
Israel the dessert. Usually when Morrison says something he usually
puts himself to bed but he always wakes up to say one more stupid
thing.

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 10 11:54:48 PST 1996
Article: 26789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!news1.io.org!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Stupid Germans XI
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 16:10:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <3142feca.6552168@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	According to the Holocaust story:
	"The first gassing in crematorium IV did not go well. An SS
man, wearing a face mask, had to climb a little ladder to get to a
'window,' then open it with one hand and pour in the Zyklon B with the
other. This acrobatic routine had to be repeated six times." [2]


From tm@pacificnet.net Mon Mar 11 11:21:46 PST 1996
Article: 26924 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:38:23 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <31442c61.608184@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4hvedt$r10@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> <4i097c$e1o@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-2.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  Moran, you should go to the library and do a title search on "The
>>  Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud" or an author search on "Madison C.
>>  Peters" so you "can check them out for what they really say."
>>  
>> 
>>>>>
>	As it happens that book is avaliable from the Allentown Public Library.  
>Perhaps Moron should read it when he is there checking out the photos of the 
>trees in Israel.
> Edeiken

	Should I ask for Rachelle or should I just ask for
whats-her-name?



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 12 07:56:59 PST 1996
Article: 27001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Four million in the Black Book? Citation please.
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:16:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <314578c6.601868@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4faroe$h1d@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ftd56$l44@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <312355ff.5950464@news.pacificnet.net>  <4ges9o$lbj@wi.combase.com> <4gfmtm$s3g@larry.cc.emory.edu> <4gm2cm$b1b@byatt.alaska.net>  <313B53BC.14F4@kaiwan.com> <199603050808.AAA10165@rbi.rbi.com> <313BFA81.4A8C@kaiwan.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-21.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>Greg Raven (ihrgreg@kaiwan.com) wrote:
>
>> Furthermore, the Black Book in 1946 claimed that there were four million 
>> JEWISH victims at Auschwitz and its satellite camps.
>
>Mr. Raven, I happen to have a copy of the hard-to-find _Black Book_.
>My edition is (c) 1980 Vad Yashem, English translation (c) 1981 by
>Holocaust Publications, Inc.
>
>I cannot find mention of the figure four million.
>
>Please give me a page number, or, if we have different editions, tell
>me which testimony or essay to look in.
>
>What I do find is the description on the cover:  "Documents the Nazis'
>destruction of 1.5 million Soviet Jews."  And the very first sentence of
>Yitzhak Arad's essay is "During the Second World War the Nazis murdered
>six million Jews, among them one and one half million on occupied Soviet
>territory."  (p. xv)
>
>Now, I can subtract, and I imagine Yitzhak Arad can subtract too.  Six
>million minus 1.5 million is 4.5 million.  If the _Black Book_ goes on
>to claim, somewhere, that four million JEWS (your emphasis) died at
>Auschwitz, then they are either claiming that only 500,000 Jews died at
>Majdanek, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, or they are
>contradicting Arad's essay and even the book's cover.

	Jamie reads the covers of books so he doesn't have to open
them. 

>I doubt anyone would claim that only 500,000 Jews died at the other five
>death camps.
>
>Since the _Black Book_ deals mostly with the destruction of Soviet Jews,
>it naturally concerns the Einsatzgruppen, and to some degree the more
>easterly camps.  Auschwitz is either the most westerly or one of the
>most westerly camps, and so gets little mention in the book.  The index
>and table of contents mention only two of the testimonies, those on
>pp. 476-502.  I have skimmed those pages, twice, and see no mention of
>the number four million, nor indeed any mention of the number of
>Auschwitz victims.  Individual transports' figures are mentioned --
>a thousand or thirteen hundred there, "tens of thousands" there --
>but no mention of the final total.
>
>So, Mr. Raven -- give me a page number, please.
>
>> ...let's look for a moment at the claim that the Soviets arrived at
>> the higher figure based on crematory capacity. If you accept this
>> argument as correct, then you must admit there was no plan or policy
>> to exterminate Jews and others by the Nazis during WWII.
>> 
>> In other words, if Auschwitz and/or Birkenau had this kind of
>> crematory capacity, and if as you acknowledge it was not used, then
>> obviously there was no plan to murder all the Jews of Europe.
>
>As an aside, I must say that I find this reasoning utterly ludicrous.
>
>Posted and emailed to Mr. Raven.
>-- 
> Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
> jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
> Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
> to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 12 07:57:00 PST 1996
Article: 27002 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ole Kreiberg & the Krakowski Lie
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:33:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <31457cce.1634183@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <4i1usk$mmn@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-21.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:

>In article , 
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>>       "A large number of testimonials on file were later proved to be 
>>       inaccurate when locations and dates could not pass an expert 
>>       historian's appraisal"   
>>
>>                             -Shmuel Krakowski
>>                   Director of Archives, Yad Vashem, Israel.
>>             Interview in Jerusalem Post, 17th August 1986; page 1
>
>This is an outright lie, as Professor Krakowski's response to
>the Editor makes patently clear:
>
>Archive/File: pub/people/krakowski.shmuel/press jerusalem-post.0886 
>Last-Modified: 1993/10/28
>
>[UseNet headers snipped]
>
>One of the claims often posted by Gannon on the net is that Shmuel
>Krakowski, who used to be the director of the archives at Yad-Vashem
>(Holocaust memorial center in Jerusalem), had said that "over half of
>the testimonies given to us by Holocaust survivors are inaccurate"
>(often, this changes to "over half of the survivors lied to us",
>etc - all in the true spirit of "revisionist scholarship").
>
>As usual, Gannon and his Fuehrers are lying through their teeth.
>As usual, all we have to do is spend a little time to expose their
>lies and slanders.
>
>Krakowski was blatantly misquoted in the interview Gannon mentions;
>on the same day it appeared in the "Jerusalem Post" (17.8.1986) he
>sent an unequivocal protest, which appeared in the letters to the
>editor section a few days later (unfortunately I have only a 
>photocopy of the page in which it appears, and cannot tell it it's
>August 21 1986 or August 22 1986; I'll check this out soon). The
>letter is included below.
>
>I should add that I spoke with Krakowski on the phone about this.
>He is rather upset about being misrepresented and slandered by
>Nazi propagandists. Unfortunately, he is not alone; other historians
>have also been quoted by Holocaust deniers as saying things they
>have never said.
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------
>To the Editor of the Jerusalem Post
>
>Sir, - I was deeply astonished to read Barbara Amouyal's front-page article
>of August 17, which is based in part on an interview with me.
>
>Many hundreds of the 20,000 testimonies held in our archives were 
>extensively used in Nazi war criminal trials, contrary to what Amouyal 
>wrote.
>
>I told Amouyal that survivors wrote their accounts for the record of 
>history. I cannot understand why she made of it that survivors wanted 
>"to be part of history".
>
>I said there are some - fortunately very few - testimonies, which proved
>to be inaccurate. Why did Amouyal make them out to be a large number?
>
>Regarding the final remark, I did not receive any "orders" not to
>discuss the Demjanjuk case. I simply refused to discuss it with Amouyal.
>
>		Shumel Krakowski,
>		Director,
>		Yad Vashem Archives
>  Jerusalem.

	McVay, you have done nothing here to belie the main post. Nor
does Krakowski's note above do anything about the rest.
	
>This letter is also available on the Web - see URL
>http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/denial-of-science/krakowski-1.html
>
>Perhaps, given the many, many times this lie has been
>repeated, and refuted, in this newsgroup, you would explain
>your duplicity in repeating it yet again?
>
>-- 
>The Nizkor Project (Canada) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>        Anonymous ftp: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? 
>        European mirror: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/
>Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!)



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 12 07:57:01 PST 1996
Article: 27003 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INEVITABLY REDICULOUS
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:42:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <31457e7d.2065070@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <314432a1.2209028@news.pacificnet.net> <4i2i1d$si1@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-21.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  			
>>  	Within the last the couple of years it has been reported that
>>  Ssleezy Israel has secretly supplied China with U.S. military
>>  technology. 
>>  
>>>>>
>	Where has this been reported?  Or this just another lie from L'il Tommy 
>about Jews.
>
>	--YFE

	Okay Yale. Thanks for your acknowledging it is a contemptuous
thing. As soon as I return I will post the particulars. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 12 07:57:01 PST 1996
Article: 27004 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: INEVITABLY REDICULOUS
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:48:19 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <31457f8f.2339090@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <314432a1.2209028@news.pacificnet.net> <11MAR96.21204408.0049@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-21.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Keith Morrison  wrote:

>In article <314432a1.2209028@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>   
>> Within the last the couple of years it has been reported that
>>Ssleezy Israel has secretly supplied China with U.S. military
>>technology.
>> Now the U.S. is engaged in conflict with China that involves
>>military confrontation.
>> They will kill our people with the technology the Jews have
>>supplied.
>> Considering the history of U.S. support for that little
>>arrogant chutzpah state, it was inevitable that it should come to this
>>further rediculous apex.
>
>Within the last couple of years it has been reported that the US
>sold advanced military hardware to both Iraq and Iran.  Since then
>Iran has ben involved in potentially dangerous showdowns with the US
>and Iraq has been in a military conflict.
>
>Clearly this indicates an inherent stupidity in all Americans, a
>people so full of self-righteous chutzpah, that they arm their
>enemies and give them the tools to kill Americans.

	But then we don't give them billions of dollars a year. They
are not totally reliant on us for their existance. Iran and Iraq are
the Jews enemies, not ours, inspite of all the letters, columns,
articles and full page ads by Jews urging American to hate these
nations. 

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 17 08:26:42 PST 1996
Article: 27282 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!darwin.sura.net!news.dfn.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!genesis.westend.com!news.gtn.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran taking a powder
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:08:48 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <31457750.228707@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-21.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Moran is taking a powder for a couple of weeks. This ought to
be a relief to some. 
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:05:48 PST 1996
Article: 27780 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:28:41 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-26.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	             New York Times
                  Sunday, Mar. 17, 1996
                    Large editorial by
                 Daniel Jonathan Goldhagen

                - The People's Holocaust -

	"One day in Nov. 1942, at the height of the Germans systematic
slaughter of Polish Jewery, men serving in a battalion of about 500
reserve policemen learned that they would be undertaking yet another
genocidal killing, this time the Jews of Lukow.
	That evening, according to one of the battalion members, a
peculiar thing happened: '"An entertainment unit of Berlin policemen
..were our guests ... The members of this unit had also learned of
the forthcoming shooting of the Jews and indeed offered, even pleaded
emphatically, for permission to participate in the execution of these
Jews. This strange request was granted by the battalion"'.
	These entertainers like so many ordinary Germans, willingly
killed Jews. Contrary to what is commonly believed, the Germans who
killed Jews were not exclusivley a select group of Nazi fanatics, not
only members of the SS but also tens of thousands of ordinary Germans
>from  all walks of life.
	A trove of files confirms this fact. ... These records have
been used only selectively by scholars, in part because they are
scattered throughout the Justice system and not stored in historical
archives.
	My extensive research into these files has produced a new
portrait of the Germans who killed Jews and a new interpretation of
the Holocaust itself.
	... Although a definitive etimate is difficult to make, it is
clear that in excess of 100,000 Germans, and probably more [330,000],
helped exterminate European Jews.
	A few figures provide a sense of vastness of the genocidal
machinery. For instance, it has been documented that 10,000 camps of
various sizes and kinds existed ... for destroying Jews and non-Jews.
	The Nazi authorities, apparently acting on the assumption that
any able-bodied German would consent to kill Jews, assigned virtually
anyone who was available to the task. Their assumption was borne out.
	In December 1941, the leadership of seven regional Protestant
churches ... urged that the 'severest measures against Jews be
adopted'.
	                 (Bold sud header)
                        Not only SS troops
                           killed Jews.
                        Ordinary Germans 
                          did so eagerly.
                    
	German courts have repeatedly concluded that during the
Holocaust no German was ever killed for, sent to a concentration camp,
jailed or punished in any serious way for refusing to kill Jews.

                        	...

	The inescapable, fundemental truth is that for the Holocaust
to have occurred, an enormous number of ordinary Germans had to become
Hitler's willing executioners." 

                            ____________

	This person, Jonathan Jonah Goldhagen, is an assitant
professor of government and social studies at Harvard, is the author
of the forthcoming book - Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary
Germans and the Holocaust -.
	So much for Harvard. One can only imagine what kind of crap he
dispenses in his class room.
	
		


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:05:49 PST 1996
Article: 27781 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented".
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 15:30:46 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 2
Message-ID: <315175bd.4223128@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-26.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	See posting "EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE"


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:05:50 PST 1996
Article: 27789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Just ask for Rachelle"
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:20:16 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <31518184.7237906@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <313eef1a.367503@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm4-6.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141



> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
> > only his nostrils are above the surface, flailing for a breath.
> 
 I nominate this for "most picturesque abuse of the English language
 in alt.revisionism in 1996."  What do you guys think?

    I think Matt Giwer has put in a strong bid with his recent message

about obtuse/abstruse and "dilemma."

Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute
Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the
official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.





From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:05:51 PST 1996
Article: 27790 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!panix!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Against Tom Moran's "Ultimate Responsibility" (repost)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 16:33:40 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 376
Message-ID: <31518318.7641330@news.pacificnet.net>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm4-6.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Nele Abels  wrote:

>
>Since I haven't received any answer to my short essay, I repost it in the 
>(probably vain) hope that some revisionist can be bothered with reading 
>it. Some minor spellchecking and re-formatting has been made.
>
>Nele
>
>
>Nele Abels
>abels@coventry.ac.uk
>
>
>
>A critique on T. Moran's "Ultimate Responsibility"
>
>
	Here, Nele, is a reply.

>
>Quite a while ago, T. Moran published in alt.revisionism the essay "Ultimate
>Responsibility". Though it has been dealt with extensively, I feel, that
>some major points have not been touched. Therefore I will post my comments
>on it. I consider Moran's essay dangerous. It does not fall into the category
>of usual revisionist writing as a blend of blatant lies and base insults. On
>the surface, this text tries to appear as a real reflection on history, pretending
>to judge facts on neutral grounds. Yet the text is a rape of history, but in
>a subtle way, directed not at the scholar of history, used to methods of
>argumentation and scholarily proof, but at the uninitiated reader whose only
>contact with history was perhaps in school. Moran very cunningly manipulates
>implications. He is very good in establishing a ground of half-truths and
>hints which are completed in his reader's mind. My essay too is directed
>at the non-histiorian. It is therefore only partly a historical argumentation, 
>I will also try to show Moran's methods of manipulation. "Ultimate 
>Responsibility" must be taken seriously. It is a piece of propaganda, and 
>probably an effective one.
>
>Quotations which are not marked, are taken from Mr. Moran's text. Since
>English is only my second language, and therefore my attempts on this
>language cannot be trusted completely, I will not mark orthographical and
>syntactical mistakes in quotations, although this is the normal practice.
>That would make me vulnerable to revisionist agitation. I prefer to be
>criticized on the grounds of what I say, not of how I write. 
>
>Moran introduces the essay as a general treaty on history. "Know ye not
>history and you are doomed to repeat it", as he writes. The text deals
>with the history of the "Hebrews", we come to know, who "relish in recounting
>this history as if it is a high point of achievement". Yet they do not
>seem to be able to learn from their past, "it is always the other guy who
>is at fault".
>
>On what sources is this idea based? We find, that Moran seems to have got
>hold of a calendar with dates of Jewish history. Calendars like this are
>quite common. Calendars with sport dates can be found, with dates of
>technical achievements, feminist calendars, calendars with the dates of
>great explorers. I would not be surprised if there were calendars
>remembering the dates of Adolf Hitler's great deeds. But for T. Moran this
>special calender is extraordinary. It is a proof for the Jewish "relish"
>in their own history, a document for their attempt of how they
>"propagandize all they want about how they brilliant they are, how
>benevolent they are". 

	Sir, I would say, in response to the direct above, that when
"neo-Nazis", "white supremists" or such should give a listing of any
deeds by "white" people, the Jews would be and are quick to denounce
it as racist.
	To include this history of backlash among any deeds that are
given as accomplishments we must recognize these accounts are included
in the same listing, and thus in the same context.

>This is a heavy burden for a little calendar, and I am not sure, whether 
>it can as a historical source really meet this task. Neither is Moran
>since he comes to the brilliant revelation: 
>
>   Since these bewailings of dates of reactions are always devoid of 
>   discussing any extenuating circumstances we are left to wonder about
>   the ultimate cause and effect of the reoccurance.
>
>It is indeed most unfortunate that the task of a calendar actually is to 
>list dates without comment. A calendar is not a history book, Mr. Moran,
>neither does it pretend to be. But let's see how Moran deals with this
>poor booklet.

	I can understand that this calender book would not be the
place for the cause and effect of the extensive repeated history of
backlash which the Jews refer to as persecution, but other endeavors
would be.
Do you know of any?

>First, he establishes the general feeling of a "research enviroment". He
>carefully describes its physical appearence and its layout. 'Aha', thinks
>the innocent reader, 'this man really tries to give me a picture.' But then
>he comes to the contents. Contempt in his voice, he summarizes them:
>
>   in each space there is a notation for something the Jews find significant,
>   such as [...] June 27 notes "The Yiddish newspaper Die Yidishe Velt began
>   publication in New York (1902)
>
>Between the lines the reader is already introduced to notion that these dates 
>are of no real significance in the context of world history, they are just the
>above mentioned way of the "Jewish attempt to show their brilliance". It is
>the same idea which Hitler stated in Mein Kampf, "the Jews are the destroyers 
>of culture and the Jewish press only tries to blind the Aryans with their 
>propaganda", isn't it Mr. Moran?

	Jews have an extensive history of trying to show their
superiority, right in our daily press, right in our face. The N.Y.
Times is rampant with it. Two, three times a week we are given full
page, half page and quarter page paid advertisments plugging Jewish
interests. I would invite anyone to subscribe to this paper to observe
for themselves. 
	For all the years that I have followed the practice I have
never seen anything like it from any other group. The Jews who make up
2% or less of the American population have 100% of the history of
telling us how wonderful they are.
	I personally don't know what the Jews were up to before 1939
in Europe, but judging by what their up to now I can only imagine.
They seem to think they can say whatever little witty thing comes to
their heads, including their rampant attacks on their enemies, urging
the readers to take sides with them, attempting to come on like they
are the vangards of equality, justice and research for the benefit of
humanity.
	
>The author then continues with a very long 
>and impressive list of anti-semitic deeds in European history since the
>medieval ages which he has extracted from the calendar. This list is so 
>impressive that Moran completely forgets that it was him who has made the 
>selection from the things "the Jews find significant". The reader has no means
>of seeing the true ratio between the remembereance of anti-semitism and the
>rememberance of Jewish contribution to culture. This gives Mr. Moran the 
>opportunity to claim without fear of contradiction that the main task of the
>calendar is "bewailing the dates of reactions." 

	As already included, this accounting of backlash among the the
other listings incorporates it in the same context.

>But really impressive is how Mr. Moran describes these acts:
>
>   The Jewish history also cites [...] a substantial recollection of their
>   effects on others
>
>This is a tall word, Mr. Moran. I can clearly imagine, how in 1195 the Jews
>cunningly effected the people of Speyer by allowing themselves to be 
>massacred. What a master-plan to conquer the world. To do Mr. Moran justice,
>he at least mentions that there is a "discussion of cause and effect". But,
>alas, this highly important discussion finds no place in his essay, which
>is centred exactly around the very point of cause and effect as we will see
>below.

	Now since you have isolated a particular event, maybe you
could theorize on cause and effect. 

>Is this long list of dates to be trusted? Following Mr. Moran, it can be
>assumed that the record, 
>   
>   compiled by the Jewish community is that which they were able to find
>   but that the full account, if records were available, might excede this 
>   by many times.
>
>We have already heard, that Jewish history cannot be trusted. Between the
>lines the dates must suspicious because they are the product of Jewish
>research. But it comes even worse. Mr. Moran found himself not able to
>retrace the mentioned incidents in the historical literature. Long and and
>straining must his research have been, yet it produced only one single
>found: "one example of the above has found it's way into history books as
>to any details. This is the Spanish expulsion of Jews in 1492." Poor Mr.
>Moran, he worked so hard and he did not even find a single quotation
>mentioning the Reichskristallnacht, or the acts of the Hitler friendly
>Vichy government. This seems a strange thing to me, because, although I am
>not specialised in anti-semitic history, I have often come across similar
>incidents in my studies. Perhaps Mr. Moran should have extended his
>research a bit farther than school books. 
>
>Anyway, what are his conclusions? First, he finds that antisemitism "spanns
>ten centuries and many different areas." This is true and is not doubted
>by anybody. From the general existence of antisemitism, however, he finds
>it possible to conclude that the special case of the Einsatzgruppen's deeds
>in the areas occupied by Hitler-Germany are actually to be seen as deeds
>of the "people in Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, White Russia and else where."
>This assumption is neither backed up by sources nor by secondary literature.
>While the idea that SS and Wehrmacht were helplessly swept by the united
>will of the suppressed European people into the Jewish genocide is strange
>at best, Moran's next conclusion is really dangerous to readers not used
>to historical methodology.

	This line is supported by text found in Hilberg, Bauer and
"The Good Old Days". It was all found there and if this is what you
would deem "secondary literature" so be it. If not, you give your
examples of "secondary".

>Having introduced the topic "Holocaust", Moran comes to the point that:
>
>   we also have to recognize, aside from any moral judgements, that whatever
>   really happened during WW II is a continuation of the listed history above.
>
>With that, he considers the topic closed and changes the subject, implying
>that the anti-revisionist argumentation is damaged by his line of thought.
>What he doesn't mention is that nobody denies the fact that the national
>socialists did not invent anti-semitism. The above quotation is intended
>to leave the reader with the feeling that the history of Holocaust actually
>tries to establish the idea that the NS genocide was in each and every aspect
>original. Since this is not true, it is implied between the lines, can't it
>be at least assumed that the revisionist cause has a true foundation? What
>is left out, is the fact that the NS "originality" lies in their bureaucratic
>effectiveness, in their perversion of the modern principle of mass production
>to the ends of mass killings. Moran is dangerous at this point, not because
>he tells lies, but because he leaves out truths.

	The fact is, going by the listing, that any "anti-Semitism"
committed by the Nazis is just another component in the list. A
'continuation'.

>The long list of atrocities under which the Jewish people have suffered must
>tell us something, says Mr. Moran, it is all their own fault, that's it!
>
>   It is evident that great rage was directed towards the Jews, and we must
>   recognize that the Jews repeated history suggests that they are the
>   ultimate responsibility for whatever happened to them.

	If a little boy is constantly getting into trouble, who do we
blame? Well we could blame his parents, his society, his education, or
any of the other sociological curcumstances. We could also consider
his genetic circumstances, and finally going back to the roots of it
all, the over all devine plan. But who in the end must accept the
responsibility of his deeds? The end result of the ultimate devine
responsibility? 

>How does the author come to that point? As mentioned above, Moran succeeded
>only in finding one single quotation backing up the long list of anti-semitic
>deeds: the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492. Unfortunately, he does not
>mention his source, it is therefore not possible to validate his claims. 
>Anyway, this is what he says:
>
>The Jews came to Spain together with the Moors who invaded Spain in the early
>medieaval ages, and were therefore "complices" of the Moors. The Moors were 
>driven out, but the Jews were allowed to stay because they were connected in 
>some way with the bible. Soon the Jews had got hold of the whole economy,
>"including the agricultural chain", whatever that may mean. Consequently
>the Spaniards had enough and kicked the Jews out of their country. Voila!
>It's all their own fault. Hadn't they angered the rightful rulers of the land,
>they would have been allowed to stay.
>
>This summary of the incidents is full of misconceptions, over-simplifications
>and things left out. I will try to redraw the picture, although I must say,
>I could not be bothered with doing extensive research. I only took two
>random books in the library (no, they are not "Jewish propaganda material",
>but coincidently written by Oxfordian historians) and read some passages.
>I worked with
>
>J.H. Elliott, _Imperial Spain, 1469-1716_, London: Edward Arnold, 3rd ed.,1969 
>J.B. Trend, _The Civilization of Spain_, Oxford, Oxford University Press, 
>7th ed., 1963.
>
>The first mistake is Moran makes is that he assumes that the Jews came to
>Spain with the Moors. This is again a Hitlerian thought, the idea of the
>Jews in the trek of an invading race. A myth, nothing more. When the 
>Jewish state was dissolved by the imperial Rome, Jews emmigrated all over
>the Empire, and were thus found also in the Spanish provinces. So they
>were as a people by no way complices of the invading Moors. I have no quote
>at hand, but you can read about that in every history of Rome.
>Second, Moran falsely assumes that the reconquista restored the conditions
>before the invasion of the Moors, thus the war being "rightful". There had
>never been anything like a Spanish realm. Under Ferdinand and Isabella, for
>the first time a unified realm was consolidated. This is important as a
>background for the Jewish expulsion. On the one hand, the the newly emerged
>state needed at strong unifying factor. In the Spanish case, this was the
>catholic belief as a contrast to the islamic moors. On the other hand, the 
>last war which led to the inclusion of the former Kingdom of Granada left 
>the Spanish treasury empty. When Ferdinand established in 1487 the inquisition 
>in Spain, this is mainly to be interpreted as an attempt to gain control on
>the diverse power fractions. But it was also a means of dealing with the Jews
>who indeed had much wealth, and in consequence to get hold of this wealth. 
>
>Moran, in his attempt to construct a Jewish conspiracy, carefully does not 
>mention that Jews had little chance of being something other than merchants
>and physicians. They were nowhere in Europe allowed to own land, and were
>kept out of the christian guilds. Thus they could not become artisans either.
>It was not a new phenomenon in history that Jews were sucked empty to
>finance some state undertaking. Another example for this is the way the
>ransom for Richard I of England was collected from the Jews of London. Don't
>believe in the romantic version narrated in "Ivanhoe". The money was pressed
>out of them. There are numerous other examples on the continent, when Jews
>were faced to pay for "privileges", which were actually the promise that
>something nasty would not happen to them. These methods are nowadays connected
>with organised crime. So if the Jews are to be blamed, it's the same way
>the victim of a mugger is to be blamed for owning something. 
>  
>The expulsion of the Jews from Spain proved to be harmful for the Spanish 
>economy in the long run. The crown may have had the opportunity to lay their
>hands on some funds, but the mass-emigration of Jews damaged the infrastructure
>needed for a functioning trade. Spain lacked the skilled merchants and the 
>intellectuals. We see the results in the fact that Spain in the period
>of the conquistadors was bitterly poor and had to export most of her gold
>to the rest of Europe in order to keep her economy floating, although vast
>riches came into the country. So by no means can be said that the Jews in 
>Spain were a burden for economy or society. Trend remarks to the topic of 
>Spanish anti-semitism:
>
>   The persecution of a Jew will always achieve cheap popularity, and one
>   of the least penalties imposed on Spanish Jews was the confiscation of
>   property. (p. 83)

	Well I think you have presented a ego full here. The Jews were
the vital necessity to Spanish welfare. So we are left with what I
recounted and what you have presented, and it is there for the
judgement of any readers.
	It kind of reminds me of a visit by one of the Israeli leaders
who spoke at a Jewish festival a number of years ago where he said
"The U.S. wouldn't be what it is if it weren't for Israel".
	For two decades now we have been challenged by Jews as being
"anti-Semitic" if we should dare to speak out about Zionist policies.
It is their ultimate weapon. It is their, your cause. It has nothing
to do with the welfare of humanity at all. It has nothing to do with
the welfare of the world. The activity only has Zionism and Judaism as
the recipient of the benefit.
	Just to give a couple of examples:
	A number of years ago Saudi Arabia wanted to buy
50,000,000,000 dollars worth of arms from the U.S. The faction led by
Mel Levine, then a rep. from California, lobbied to have it nixed.
Within the next couple of years California's aerospace - defense
industry began to have problems and yet to this day we read how the
hundreds of thousands who lost their jobs are losing their homes and
can't find jobs. 50,000,000,000 is no small number. If the deal took
place many of these people would still have jobs instead of losing
their homes and being on welfare. Now did Mel Levine and others do
this for the U.S. and the world, or was it for the interests of
Zionism? To add to the rediculous nature of it all, we have a
fantastic deficit with this oil producing country, which could have
been offset by our doing buisness with them. From Saudi Arabia we get
our beloved oil. With Israel we get nothing but lose.
	What is the sleezy little Mel Levine up to now that he has
failed to get re-elected? By latest report he is in Washington acting
in the capacity for creating economic buisness for the state of
Israel. The same thing he was doing when he was in office.

	During the Gulf War build up hype, Steven Solarz seemed to be
at the vanguard of urging us to war along with the usual columnists,
who of the 45 columns written in just two papers that I monitor, N. Y.
and L.A. Times, 42 were written by Jews. Now was their concern for the
U.S. and the world, or was it for the destruction of Israel's enemy?
	
	These are just two examples.
	
>Most of the above misconception result from the over-simplifying view of
>history as a struggle of monolithical, individualized powers, who strive
>for simple and linear aims. In Moran's and Hitler's conception of history
>we find the same notion of "natural rights" and the same sympathy with
>reckless excercise of brutal force. Needless to say that this picture of
>history is naive at best - this is the history of fantasy tales.
>
>Having come to this point, what are the sad remains of Mr. Moran's essay. He
>simplifies and falsifies one single historical example and draws a general
>conclusion from false premises. He not even tries to see subtle aspects in 
>historical developement. He speaks of "the Jew" and "the Spanish". Point for
>point he has the same methods and concepts of history as his great idol
>Adolf Hitler. And all this he hides under the mask of rational discussion
>and neutral reflections. The question left open is: 
>
>Is he a poor historican or his he a clever demagogue. Is he too stupid or
>is he too cunning.
>
>Whatever he is, don't fall for him.

	In the end we are still left with this most repeated history
in the history of the world without any comprehensive analysis of why.
Maybe you would like to take a shot at it.

                     Y w h t r t e r m t d w i. Y w s t h n w j.
(Words will be filled in after your response.) 
	


>
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:05:56 PST 1996
Article: 27877 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented".
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:52:33 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3152a228.580062@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <315175bd.4223128@news.pacificnet.net> <4isauj$mr1@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-29.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	See posting "EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE"
>
>Believe it or not, Tommy, most people here (yourself evidently excepted) 
>are fully able to see the other thread without this "helpful" new 
>thread.  
>
>Talk about a waste of bandwidth.....

	Coming here to leave a little wee wee you forgot your usual
"hahahahahaha" and "blablablablablabla".


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:05:57 PST 1996
Article: 27878 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:08:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <3152a2c7.739565@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-29.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>
># "The inescapable, fundemental truth is that for the Holocaust
># to have occurred, an enormous number of ordinary Germans had 
># to become Hitler's willing executioners." 
>
>Unfortunately, this is true. But it is a sad reflection on
>humanity in general, not on Germans in particular. Other 
>nations have practiced genocides as well, in which enormous
>numbers of "willing executioners" have participated.
>
>Also, it is somewhat encouraging to see that there were Germans
>who tried to help the Jews. In that dark hour, some didn't
>lose their humanity, but became more humane. 

	Whatever we might accept as true from the Holocaust story, we
don't see Germans writing letters to the editor, columns (signed or
unsigned), or articles telling the people of the U.S. that it is all a
process of right as we have seen over the last couple of decades by
Jews justifying their policies.
	Such as the policy of shooting down children in the street for
throwing stones, locking tens of thousands up in camps for years
without due process, and most recently sealing off a whole population,
holding back food, denying medical care, bombing widows and childrens
homes, just to mention a few. We don't see any great activity on the
part of any Jews to complain about this. We see the reverse. We see
charges of anti-Semitism, and excuses that "Israel is a democracy" and
an "ally of the U.S.".
	We see indigenous people driven to suicide.
                                                   
	Now we can wait for you to leave a little more wee wee,
professor.

                                                          Tom Moran	
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:06:05 PST 1996
Article: 28016 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:24:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <3154094b.2364411@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net>  <3152a2c7.739565@news.pacificnet.net> <4iv7f0$m5h@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-10.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	Whatever we might accept as true from the Holocaust story, we
>: don't see Germans writing letters to the editor, columns (signed or
>: unsigned), or articles telling the people of the U.S. that it is all a
>: process of right 
>
>No, we don't.  We see idiots like you doing it for them.  As long as 
>scum like you denies there even was a Holocaust, there isn't even a need 
>for rationalizers.
>
>as we have seen over the last couple of decades by
>: Jews justifying their policies.
>
>Whose policies?  So now all Joos even those who don't live in Israel, are 
>responsible?  No one ever claimed anything even approaching that forthe 
>Holocaust.  If you can find me anything saying "German-Americans who had 
>never lived in Germany were responsible for the Holocaust," please 
>enlighten us.
>
>: 	Such as the policy of shooting down children in the street for
>: throwing stones, locking tens of thousands up in camps for years
>: without due process, and most recently sealing off a whole population,
>: holding back food, denying medical care, bombing widows and childrens
>: homes, just to mention a few.
>
>I find it interesting that Tommy is so heartfelt about these horrors, 
>which are way below the horror scale of the mass murder of millions, yet 
>is so callous about the holocaust.  How come you're not denying the above 
>ever happened, Tommy?  
>
>Because your purpose is to attack the Joooooooooos............
>
> We don't see any great activity on the
>: part of any Jews to complain about this. We see the reverse. We see
>: charges of anti-Semitism, and excuses that "Israel is a democracy" and
>: an "ally of the U.S.".
>
>What in G-d's name are you talking about?  Your claim of never seeing 
>Jooish opposition to Israeli policies is so blatantly false it's 
>laughable.  I'll bet even Matt "I never saw a Jooish demonstration at the 
>Cambodian Embassy in the 1970s" Giwer could find many examples of Jooish 
>opposition to the above.
>
>: 	We see indigenous people driven to suicide.
>                    
>Which to you is worse than mass murder, as long as the Joos are on the 
>other side.
>
>This is a familiar tactic; equate the Holocaust with Israeli treatment of 
>Palestinians, create a moral equivalency, and thus negate them both.
>                             
>: 	Now we can wait for you to leave a little more wee wee,
>: professor.
>
>Ooooooooh.  I'll bet that's been cracking you up since you were 5 (as 
>compared to now, when your I.Q is 5).

	Wow. I think you just wee wee-ed a whole lake here.


From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:06:06 PST 1996
Article: 28019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:40:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <315409b7.2472393@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net>  <3152a2c7.739565@news.pacificnet.net> <4ive82$kel@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU> <4ivkdn$l1j@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-10.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>In article <3152a2c7.739565@news.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	Whatever we might accept as true from the Holocaust story, we
>>don't see Germans writing letters to the editor, columns (signed or
>>unsigned), or articles telling the people of the U.S. that it is all a
>>process of right as we have seen over the last couple of decades by
>>Jews justifying their policies.
>
>I agree with you.  An overwhelming number of Germans accept the
>veracity of the Holocaust and view it as wrong.  It is a credit to their
>humanity.  I suggest you reflect on this.

	Whatever Holocaust the Germans are admitting to today they
will not be admitting to tommorrow. I would say many of them are
silent doubters and are sick of the prolonged hounding. 

>>	Such as the policy of shooting down children in the street for
>>throwing stones, locking tens of thousands up in camps for years
>>without due process, and most recently sealing off a whole population,
>>holding back food, denying medical care, bombing widows and childrens
>>homes, just to mention a few. We don't see any great activity on the
>>part of any Jews to complain about this. We see the reverse. We see
>>charges of anti-Semitism, and excuses that "Israel is a democracy" and
>>an "ally of the U.S.".
>>	We see indigenous people driven to suicide.
>
>Mr. Moran, the Palestinian/Israeli conflict has no relation to the
>veracity of the Holocaust.  If you restricted your concern to the rights
>of the Palestinian people rather than using any excuse at all to bash
>Jews, you might find that you are treated with more respect.
>
>As it turns out, we Jews are deeply divided over the issue of the
>Israeli/Palestinian conflict.  I, personally, support the peace process.
>I think the best solution is to support Peres _and_ Arafat against the
>extremists on either side.

	"we Jews"? I have seen this many many times. "are deeply
divided"? I have seen this many many times, these very exact words
"deeply divided". It usually pops up when Jewish atrocities flare up
into the news such as during the Intifada (Childrens War). I have seen
the "deeply divided" claimed way more than I have seen any substance.
In fact whenever it is used there is more written between the lines
than on the lines justifying any atrocities including the insertion
"Holocaust" along the way as an excuse for the mental state that
committs the Jewish atrocities.
	
	 
>
>Regards,
>
>Rich Green
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Richard J. Green	Department of Chemistry, Stanford CA 94303-5080
>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU  http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud
>
>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or 
>prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, 
>or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to 
>petition the government for a redress of grievances.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:06:07 PST 1996
Article: 28022 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented".
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:45:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <31540d7e.3439458@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <315175bd.4223128@news.pacificnet.net> <4isauj$mr1@news.nyu.edu> <3152a228.580062@news.pacificnet.net> <22MAR199623242078@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-10.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <3152a228.580062@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>>>Believe it or not, Tommy, most people here (yourself evidently excepted) 
>>>are fully able to see the other thread without this "helpful" new 
>>>thread.  
>>>
>>>Talk about a waste of bandwidth.....
>> 
>>	Coming here to leave a little wee wee you forgot your usual
>>"hahahahahaha" and "blablablablablabla".
>
>    Talk about a waste of bandwidth.....

	Well I can see you have followed the Jeremy Litt here. Waste
of bandwidth? How is that?
	Here, now that you have gotten the bandwidth of your mind I
will ask you the same thing I put to the professor: Can you supply a
list of just 1% of this asserted 10,000 camps? 1/2 a percent? 

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>          Quoth the Raven: "Tommy's mind is too little to waste"



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:06:10 PST 1996
Article: 28066 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!nntp.micrognosis.com!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:21:42 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <3154051f.1297218@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net>  <3152a2c7.739565@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-10.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>Tom Moran writes:
>
>[Criticism of Israel's policies]
>
>It seems you cannot focus on the matter, or that you have nothing to
>say. You posted something about WW2 Germany. I responded. Then, in
>response to my article, you brought up the current political state
>in Israel (giving, BTW, a highly biased and inaccurate "analysis").
>
>If you want to discuss Israeli/Arab politics, open another thread,
>but what does it have to do with the facts of an event that took
>place before the state of Israel existed?
>
>BTW, you can save your infantile "wee-wee" etc. comments for
>your "revisionist" colleagues.

	The fact, as I see it professor, is that the whole article and
the up coming book is a lie. He talks about these archives being
spread out and states "although a definitive estimate is difficult to
make" he concludes 330,000.
	I would say his statement "A few figures provide a sense of
the vastness of the genocidal machinery" summarizes his whole approach
to the research. This is just before he says "For instance, it has
been documented that more than 10,000 camps of various sizes and kinds
existed ... for incarcerating and destroying Jews".
	Perhaps you can give us a list of just say 1% of this 10,000.

	As to the relevance of the present day Jewish activity, the
state of Israel was founded on this assertion of mass extermination
and that they themselves are involved in atrocities. The Holocaust to
this day is used to extract money from Germany and the U.S.

	Do you think I post things out here to do individual debate on
the subject? I post things out here for the general reader and to
solicit you and your collegues to wee wee on the posts for all to see.
	I see you have taken offense at the 'wee wee' analogy, yet I
don't see you berating your collegues for their rampant practice of
insult which you committ yourself. In a another month or so I will
post the examples under your name and the others. Then you can come
along and wee wee on those.  	
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 24 15:06:12 PST 1996
Article: 28073 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 1996 14:49:59 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <31540f50.3905551@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-10.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


	Since the state of Israel is a religious state we can conclude
that any practices they committ are a process of their religion.


From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 26 18:58:11 PST 1996
Article: 28228 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Against Tom Moran's "Ultimate Responsibility" (repost)
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:55:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <3156b1a0.580557@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <31518318.7641330@news.pacificnet.net> <4j1b7c$1m34@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <3155569e.1587771@news.pacificnet.net> <24MAR199623170719@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>    A couple of brilliant snippets from Tommy...
>
>(tom moran) writes...
>>gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>>>(tom moran) writes:
>>>>	Jews have an extensive history of trying to show their
>>>>superiority, right in our daily press, right in our face. The N.Y. Times
>>>>is rampant with it. Two, three times a week we are given full page, half
>>>>page and quarter page paid advertisments plugging Jewish interests. I
>>>>would invite anyone to subscribe to this paper to observe for themselves. 
>
>    A regular New York Times salesman you are.  So, [1] what is wrong with
>    buying advertising in a newspaper to put forward your views?  [2] If it
>    is wrong, what do you propose we do about it?

	"Wrong"? Who said "wrong"? Idiotic is the way I see it. I
don't plan on doing anything about it. It shows the ethnocentricity. 
Why do you suppose the Jews are so active in it? You know the 2%
engaged in the 100%. The more the better. I personally revel everytime
I see one of their things. 

>>>>	For all the years that I have followed the practice I have
>>>>never seen anything like it from any other group. The Jews who make up 2%
>>>>or less of the American population have 100% of the history of telling us
>>>>how wonderful they are.
>
>    Ah, I can prove this one wrong.  Jews don't have 100% of the
>    history of promoting themselves.  Ken McVay, Gord McFee, Marty Kelley,
>    and Jamie McCarthy have all said Jews are OK people.  None of them are
>    Jewish.  Right there you are less than 100%.

	Aside from Kelley, I would say the others get paid for it.
Kelley does it out of at least partial genetic connection. McVay,
McCarthy and McFee are all corrupt idiots.

>>>>	I personally don't know what the Jews were up to before 1939 in Europe,
>
>    ...so you are charging forth out of ignorance?
>
>>>>but judging by what their up to now I can only imagine. They seem to think
>>>>they can say whatever little witty thing comes to their heads, including
>>>>their rampant attacks on their enemies, urging the readers to take sides
>>>>with them, attempting to come on like they are the vangards of equality,
>>>>justice and research for the benefit of humanity.
>
>    Yeah, how dare they!  Why thats just like them Jews practicing freedom
>    of speech right here in the good ole US of A!

	The Jews practice a lot of "freedom of speech" in the U.S. and
they challenge others rights. The Jews say whatever they want. The
more they say the more they reveal themselves. Their inner egos, their
ethnocentricity. The more they pay to tell us how wonderful they are
the better. Not everyone is as stupid and corrupt as the Mcs Carthy,
Vay and Fee.

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 26 18:58:17 PST 1996
Article: 28302 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Enough with the Mail
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:09:17 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <3156b700.1956593@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <315551d3.360527@news.pacificnet.net> <4j3psa$k33@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  
>>  	J e r e m y. Aren't you wasting a little bandwidth here when
>>  you could have just sent him your complaint by e-mail? You just go
>>  around wee weeing all over the place.
>>  
>>>>>
>	Giwer has announced that he does not read e-mail from particpants in 
>a.r.  There is no other way Litt has to communicate with him.  Since you 
>mindless insults are without foundation, you will, of course, apologize to the 
>person you insulted without cause.
>
>	By the way, I still have not heard from any service providing alternate 
>resolution to legal disputes.  I take it you have withdrawn your challenge?

	Just another puddle, Yale.

>	--YFE



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 26 18:58:18 PST 1996
Article: 28303 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Enough with the Mail
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:10:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <3156b73d.2017560@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4iv4k2$iv5@news.nyu.edu> <4j48bk$18fk@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <4iv4k2$iv5@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt)
>said:
>
>>
>
>>I hereby publicly ask Mr. Giwer to stop sending me e-mail.  He has stated
>>numerous times that he does not want e-mail related to this group.  I
>>have respected that.  Yet he continues to send me unsolicited e-mail
>>about things I have posted here (and, I will note, does not have the guts
>> to publicly post these letters).  I made it clear after the first letter
>>that I did not want any more.  Yet I just got another one.  Again, I ask
>>Mr. Giwer to stop sending me unsolicited e-mail.  No one likes a
>>hypocrite.
>
>>(Anyone else having this problem with him?)
>
>I have received a couple of treasures which were immediately dispatched to
>bit bucket heaven.  The way to stop him is to employ the Jamie McCarthy
>technique, half of which you have done without knowing it: simply say (as
>you have) that *all* "revisionist" e-mail is in the public domain and will
>be posted.  THEN DO IT!
>
>Hope this helps.  I suspect the Giwerian rubbish  will stop quickly.

	Tinkle, tinkle. You need a diaper on your mind.

>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                        



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 26 18:58:24 PST 1996
Article: 28446 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Against Tom Moran's "Ultimate Responsibility" (repost)
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:11:54 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 87
Message-ID: <3155569e.1587771@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <31518318.7641330@news.pacificnet.net> <4j1b7c$1m34@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In article <31518318.7641330@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
>
>>
>>Nele Abels  wrote:
>
>
>>	Jews have an extensive history of trying to show their
>>superiority, right in our daily press, right in our face. The N.Y. Times
>>is rampant with it. Two, three times a week we are given full page, half
>>page and quarter page paid advertisments plugging Jewish interests. I
>>would invite anyone to subscribe to this paper to observe for themselves. 
>
>Gee, Tommie, would you prohibit Jews from having *paid* advertisements in a
>newspaper?  And if you think it is so terrible, why are you inviting people
>to subscribe?

	McFee, one of your practices is to your words into someone
elses writing in order to facilitate a response. Who said anything
about "prohibit"?

>>	For all the years that I have followed the practice I have
>>never seen anything like it from any other group. The Jews who make up 2%
>>or less of the American population have 100% of the history of telling us
>>how wonderful they are.
>
>I just don't know how I have missed all these stories, and I read several
>newspapers a week.

	Here you have done it again. I will add it your dossier of
examples. Did I not specify a particular paper(s)?

>>	I personally don't know what the Jews were up to before 1939 in Europe,
>>but judging by what their up to now I can only imagine. They seem to think
>>they can say whatever little witty thing comes to their heads, including
>>their rampant attacks on their enemies, urging the readers to take sides
>>with them, attempting to come on like they are the vangards of equality,
>>justice and research for the benefit of humanity.
>
>You of course have citations for these silly statements?

	Yes. Get into the computerized archives of the two papers and
eneter things like "Israel" and watch the screen fill up.

>[Moran rubbish deleted]
>
>>>Anyway, what are his conclusions? First, he finds that antisemitism
>"spanns
>>>ten centuries and many different areas." This is true and is not doubted
>>>by anybody. From the general existence of antisemitism, however, he finds
>>>it possible to conclude that the special case of the Einsatzgruppen's
>deeds
>>>in the areas occupied by Hitler-Germany are actually to be seen as deeds
>>>of the "people in Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, White Russia and else where."
>>>This assumption is neither backed up by sources nor by secondary
>literature.
>>>While the idea that SS and Wehrmacht were helplessly swept by the united
>>>will of the suppressed European people into the Jewish genocide is strange
>>>at best, Moran's next conclusion is really dangerous to readers not used
>>>to historical methodology.
>
>>	This line is supported by text found in Hilberg, Bauer and
>>"The Good Old Days". It was all found there and if this is what you would
>>deem "secondary literature" so be it. If not, you give your examples of
>>"secondary".
>
>None of which has anything to do with your idiotic assertion that the
>Einsatzgruppen crimes were crimes of the local populace.  Although sometimes
>the local populace became involved, and although Jewish pogroms had existed
>long before there were Einsatzgruppen, the Einsatzgruppen murders were
>theirs.
>
>[much more Moran rubbish deleted]
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>
>
>
>.. I'll write no line before its time(gmcfee@ibm.net)
>-- MR/2 2.26 #331
>
>                                        



From tm@pacificnet.net Tue Mar 26 18:58:25 PST 1996
Article: 28447 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Sun, 24 Mar 1996 14:15:22 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <3155589f.2101265@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <4j2bb9$9j1@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-14.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>
>>  
>>  Somehow, these "children" have succeded to kill a few hundreds of
>>  Israelis, using guns, high-powered explosives, etc. But you
>>  never heard of that, did you? 
>>  
>	"L'il Tommy has also apparently never heard of the law of the state in 
>which he resides.  As I read the law of California (not an easy job in my local law 
>library) ..."

	It might have been a little easier if you had ask Rachelle to
help you.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:28 PST 1996
Article: 28495 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news.charm.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: searching servers
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:20:21 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3156b9a4.2631951@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4j4ei7$rse@nixe.isar.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

hald@m.isar.de (Stephan Hald-Greiner) wrote:

>
>hi all (expect non aryans)!
>at first:excuse me for my bad english i´m from germany!
>i´m searching adresses of servers like Zundel-SITE.
>but i want it a bit harder.i have heard of a server called stromfront
>or so.but i don´t have any adress.
>send so much adresses as you can find to
>HALD@m.isar.de.
>PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>that´s it i think.

	"Think"?
>cu 
>
>
>    Steve



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:29 PST 1996
Article: 28503 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!news.dacom.co.kr!vyzynz!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:00:56 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <3156b449.1261132@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net> <31540f50.3905551@news.pacificnet.net>  <315553ca.863750@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>tom moran  wrote:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>
>## The state of Israel is not a religious state.
>
># Jew comes from the word Judaism. Judaism is a religion. Israel
># is a Jewish state. 
>
>Kindly stop these idiotic word games. BTW, about 20 percent of
>Israeli citizens are non-Jews.

	They just had an article in the Times about the treatment
these people get. Not good.

># You simply say "Israel is not ..." and I give you a
># bit more than just saying 'Yes it is'.
>
>No, it's not. It's not run according to the laws of Judaism.
>It's not a religious state. Perhaps, Iran can be described as such,
>because, AFAIK, it is run according to religious laws.

	I'm not even going to respond to this, except recommend you
pass it around your campus.

>## BTW, I notice that you stopped posting forged testimonies. Good
>## for you. It's a big step forward for "revisionism".
>
># "Forged"? Or satire?	
>
>Forged. As in "written in exactly the same format as the
>real testimony, without indicating it's an invention". Or,
>as in "another forgery posted by a 'revisionist scholar'";
>your choice.

	If the satire was a forgery, why did I include the satire
right there with the original, right out here on group?
	Your use of the word "forged" is a forgery, corrupt professor.
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>-- 
>Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
>
>-Lu Xun.



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:34 PST 1996
Article: 28559 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship
Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:10:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <31594c3d.543922@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <4faroe$h1d@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ftd56$l44@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-18.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history:4302 alt.revisionism:28559 alt.censorship:75175


	Mc Vays long endeavor is what he implies is a "rudimentary"
presentation to discount that the public is widely under the
assumption that 4,000,000 people died at Auschwitz, with 3,000,000 of
them being Jews. The 536 lines McVay has used here is a sign of how
serious the Holocaust faction views this revision. He tries to say
revisionists were not charged with being anti-Semitic for questioning
the validity of the accounts, when in fact his own page and all the
other Holocaust promotion pages are still referring to them as
"neo-Nazis", "anti-Semites" and "racists" for further questioning
further details of the Holocaust story. He also tries to deny that
revisionists are responsible for the grand reduction of the Auschwitz
numbers, when in fact it wasn't the likes of the Simon Wiesenthal
Center, or Reitlingler, or Hilberg or any other Holocaust story
teller. If it wasn't for revisionist challenges to the story we could
bet the number would still be 4,000,000 people killed at Auschwitz
with 3,000,000 of them being Jewish. He can point to some of the
accounts as proof that the old figures were not presented by some
historians, but he can not show they are even close to a majority and
would not be able to show it was they that were involved in the
reduction, even though we must conclude they were aware that
4,000,000/3,000,000 figure was rampant in the minds of the masses. The
reduction of the Auschwitz numbers is the major first step in the
credibility of the whole story going by the wayside. It is my
experience, that when this Auschwitz reduction is presented to people
they are ready and willing to doubt more. Three million discrepancy is
no small number. It is such a whopper that people are shocked.
	McVay could have presented a number of other "historian"
assertions, like Nora Levin who said up to 2,300,000 Jews died at
Auschwitz or we can look at Yehuda Bauer's 1,500,000 to 3,500,000 Jews
died at Auschwitz. Even here we can see that Bauer's figures are one
number or 2 1/2 times that number. The Holocaust story tosses around
numbers in the millions as if it was nothing.
	A corrupt state of affairs.  


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:34 PST 1996
Article: 28560 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:12:30 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <31594cbb.669590@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-18.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	       Also titled, Great concepts worth knowing.
	
	Lately Moran has mustered up a phrase that for the most part
could be related to a magic wand, or a hat full of tricks. The phrase
spelling so far has been either "dios ex machina" or "deos ex
machina", both wrong. Apologies. Though having long known the phrase,
coming across it through crossword puzzles, I never made use of it in
writing, thus the exact spelling eluded my memory.

	The correct spelling is,  "deus ex machina".

	Random House Dictionary:
  1. "a god who resolves the entanglements of the play by his super
natural forces".
  2. "an artificial, forced or improbable device used to resolve the
difficulties of a plot".

	Like a document for every occasion, or interpreting an ant
hill phrase or word into a mountain range, or citing eye witness or
second party eyewitness testimony, special interpretation of
testimony, annonymous accounts, finding accounts in bottles buried at
the 'scene of the crime', or merely blurting out whatever suits the
purpose.

	Pondering the idea of deus ex machina leads to pondering
another related principle:
 
                 Argumentum ad ignorantum:
     "An argument purporting to demonstrate a point or to persuade
people, which avails itself of facts and reasons the falsity or
inadequacy of which is not readily discerned;(or available for
validation), a misleading argument used in reliance on peoples
ignorance", (or inability to access any referrences cited as showing
proof).
  
	

                    ------------------------------

	One would think that if a person or a side had good argument
for/or against something they would rely on introducing information or
logic to show their views. Barring this we have to recognize that if
anyone resorts to blanket insults or name calling it is a sign of
break down. 	            

                   - Argumentum ad hominem: -
                  
         "An irrelvant or malicious appeal to personal circumstances;
it consists in diverting an argument from sound facts and reasons to
the personality of the opponent."
	         Calling the opponent names. 
	         Making snide little remarks.

	       Another term for it is, 'EVASION'.


	































































                    Argumentum ad Special Exception


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:35 PST 1996
Article: 28561 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "..they lived right inside the gas chambers."
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:15:03 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <31594d27.777518@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-18.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	       Or - Way out Holocaust Tales

	According to Yehuda Backon, a survivor from Birkenau and
settling in Jeruselem testified at the Eichmann trial:

Backon: "In the fall of 1944 they (the Sonderkommando) lived inside
the crematorium, here on top (referring to a "drawing"), while some
were put up in the gas chambers of crematoria nos.3 and 4."

Judge: "In the attic?"

Backon: "In crematoria 1 and 2, and in crematoria 3 and 4, they lived
right inside the gas chambers."
                          ---------------

	"In the fall of 1944" would be about the time of mass gassing
of the Hungarian Jews, put at 400,000. We might expect that the walls
and floors of the chambers would be pretty well saturated, imbedded
even, with the super duper, terrible, omni-potent, lethal, deadly
Zyklone B and wonder about such a place doubling as a residence.

	Perhaps a document or additional survivor testimony will pop
up to show that the workers wore their gas masks while bedding down in
the gas chambers. Who ever comes up with the document should try to
give it a little extra force by having it show that the workers stayed
in there during the day seeing how it is said that the mass
exterminations took place at night.
	
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:36 PST 1996
Article: 28566 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented".
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:50:58 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <31595524.2822211@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <315175bd.4223128@news.pacificnet.net> <23MAR199607061630@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <315555d0.1381638@news.pacificnet.net> <3156b5c7.1643356@news.pacificnet.net> <25MAR199623103396@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-8.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <3156b5c7.1643356@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>	NOw. How about that 1/2 % of the 10,000 camps.
>>>
>>>    I no longer have the original article on my server.  Email it to me and
>>>    I will respond.
>> 
>>	Its been sent. I don't understand this "no longer" on "my
>>server". You mean its no longer stored in your program? What are you
>
>    Learn about usenet already.
>
>>doing? trying to buy time. You aren't going to find the 1/2 %. Your
>>not going to even find 1/4 %. I know you might try to pull something
>>off. I relish your reply. Pass it around to your collegues and
>>students so they can see how brilliant you are.
>
>    I've received it.  Thank you.  This is a busy week at work so I don't
>    know how quickly I can get to it, but I will respond.  
>
>    Seems to me, though, the easiest way to get a listing of the 10,000
>    camps is to ask the author of the article and book in question - or to
>    simply read the book and see what it says.

	I take it you would have the group believe the "10,000"
extermination camps. Do you think Goldhagen will list all 10,000 in
the yet to be released book, complete with "documentation". I'll just
wait for your 1/2 %. Hear from you next week, you say?

>                         daniel david mittleman 
>===========================================================================
>                   Quoth the Raven: "Never happened."



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:36 PST 1996
Article: 28575 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!xmission!nntp.micrognosis.com!inquo!nntp.uio.no!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BEHOLD THE LIE - Ask Your Friends
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:09:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 173
Message-ID: <31594c2a.524259@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-18.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	For those who are new to investigating whether or not the
Holocaust story is true I present you with this simple introductory
sequence of material. None of it is revisionist, meaning none of it
comes from those who deny the greater part of this Holocaust story. It
is all based on what the pushers of the story give themselves.

	A few years ago a major revision to the story was announced.
After much crying and charging of "anti-Semitism" and "neo-Nazism"
those who are so eager and dedicated to perpetuating the story have
had to accept it. The gigantic revision was the reduction of the
previously claimed number of 4,000,000 people said to have been
exterminated at Auschwitz down to the currently accepted claim of
1,000,000, a 3,000,000 (75%) reduction. Among those dedicated to
keeping the story at a high saturation in our every day lives is the
Simon Wiesenthal Center and here I present their words on the matter
so you can be confortable in accepting that there is a revision
process taking place to which even they have had to swallow, if not a
bit begrudgingly and as we will see, with a certain lack of grace,
style and respect for those the statement is aimed at. 

	As to the overall number of people said to have been killed at
Auschwitz and the number that was and is now said to have been Jews I
give you a extract from the Simon Wiesenthal Center.

                            --------
	
       "For years, the statistics at Auschwitz-Birkenau had been put
at well over 3 million.* Recently, however, a memorial plaque at the
former death camp estimates Jewish loses closer to 1 million.
Shouldn't the new figures imply that Jewish losses for the Holocaust
are much lower than previously thought?"

*("well over" meaning 4 million)

	The center then goes into a paragraph about how it was an
"invention" of the communist government of Poland and the U.S.S.R.,
"to blur the uniqueness of Jewish suffering", that they "purposely
overstated the number of non-Jewish casualties at Auschwitz-Birkenau
by many times" and in order to "disguise the subterfuge" ... "the
figures for Jewish losses were inflated by nearly double, so that
their losses would still be larger than those of non-Jewish victims".
       
        Instead of trying to figure this out at this time we can just
go on to the motive behind this rather confusing logic.

	"The figure of 6 million Jewish losses during the Holocaust
has always been in line with the lower Auschwitz figures."

                             ---------

	Now recalling the Wiesenthal Center's claim that the overall
6,000,000 number of Jews never was based on a higher figure at
Auschwitz and thus is still 6,000,000, after the revision of 4,000,000
down to 1,000,000, we can review the contradictory listing below to
see if they are telling the truth or are in fact committing a
blasphemy against the truth and are insulting the reader.
	
  
   Yehuda Bauer's _A History of the Holocaust_ (c. 1982) lists the
   Auschwitz death toll as between 1.5 and 3.5 million Jews
	
   Poliakov's _Harvest of Hate_ (c. 1956) lists the total Auschwitz 
   dead at about 2,300,000.
 
   "Auschwitz" _The World Book Encyclopedia_.  Chicago: World Book,
   1980.  2,500,000

   Billig, Joseph.  _Les camps de concentration dans l'economie du
   Reich hitlerien_.  Paris: Presses universitaires de France, 1973.
   pp 101-102. 2,000,000

   Encyclopedia Judaica, Jerusalem: Keter Publishing House, 1974.  p
   855.  1,000,000 to 2,500,000

   Friedman, Filip.  _This Was Oswiecim: The Story of a Murder Camp_.
   Translated from the Yiddish original by Joseph Leftwich.  London:
   The United Jewish Relief Appeal, 1946, 14. 4,000,000 to 5,000,000

   Kamenetksy, Ihor.  _Secret Nazi Plans for Eastern Europe_.  New
   Haven: College and University Press, 1961.  p174   2,500,000

   Kogon, Eugene. _Der SS Staat_.  Berlin,  1974, 157.  3,500,000 to

   4,500,000
   
   Wellers, Georges.  "Essai de determination du nombre de morts au
   camp d'Auschwitz" _Le Monde Juif_, Oct-Dec 1 1983, 127-59, 
   1,600,000
   
   Brestrafung der Verbrecher von Auschwitz, in _Auschwitz:
   Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des Vernichtungslagers_.  Reinbek bei
   Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 211.  2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Czech, D.  "Konzentrationslager Auschwitz: Abriss der Geschichte,"
   in _Auschwitz: Geschichte und Wirklichkeit des
   Konzentrationslagers_.  Reinbek bei Hamburg: Rowolt, 1980, 42.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Dunin-Wasowicz, Krzysztof.  _Resistance in the Nazi concentration
   camps, 1933-1945_.  Warsaw: PWN-Polish Scientific Publishers, 1982,
   44. 	2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Madajczyk, Czeslaw.  _Polityka III Rzeszy w okupowanej Polsce;
   okupacja Polski, 1939-1945_.  Warsaw: Panstwowe Wydawn Naukowe,
   1970, 293-94.  2,800,000 to 4,000,000

   _Obozy hitlerowskie na ziemiach polskich 1939-1945: informator
   encyklopedyczny_.  Warsaw: Panst.  Wydaw.  Naukowe DSP, 1979, 369.
   2,500,000 to 4,000,000

   Nora Levin's "The Holocaust",  2,000,000 to 2,300,000
  
   Rabbi Dr. Moshe Weiss, The Jewish Press Friday April 5, 1991
   Yom HaShoah - Holocaust Remembrance. 3,000,000

   
                             -------

	So, even though the Simon Wiesenthal Center claims the
6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "has always been in line with
the lower figures" it is obvious that there is some recorded evidence
to show this statement to be down right false, since they clearly cite
anywhere from 2,000,000 to 3,500,000 Jews killed at Auschwitz, which
would make the 6,000,000 figure considerably lower if we used those
numbers instead of the newer currently accepted number of 1,000,000
Jews.

	This poster has over the years witnessed many times in our
daily press the figure of 4,000,000 people said to have been put to
death at Auschwitz, 3,000,000 being Jewish. 3,000,000 Jews killed at
Auschwitz is the common prevalant 'street number' held in the minds of
those who have had any experience on the subject. I would invite
anyone to do their own poll by asking friends or acquaintances what
number they have in their heads as to the number of people said to
have been put to death at Auschwitz and how many they think were Jews,
to see how wide spread the figures are.
	
	Since the Simon Wiesenthal Center is the foremost organization
involved with saturating the minds of the people with the Holocaust
story and the main sponsor of Holocaust museums we must assume they
are knowledgable of the material that has been put forth and thus are
committing a lie. 
	In lieu of the evidence we should ask: If the Simon Wiesenthal
Center claims the 6,000,000 number was never contingent on the
pre-revised number why didn't they make an attempt at setting the
record straight? 				    
	It cannot be shown that the Holocaust perpetuators were the
initiating force behind this huge revision and others, but in fact
struggled energetically to keep it from happening. It could also be
suggested that if it was not for revisionist energy the Holocaust
beneficiaries would have let the old figures stay as they were.

       	     Behold the Lie - Ask Your Friends

	How many people do you think were killed at Auschwitz?
	How many do you think were Jewish?

	The current figure is now given as 1,000,000, 900,000, 600,000
or 300,000 - take your pick. You will hear 3,000,000. Then wonder to
yourself how Simon Wiesenthal and his company of Holocaust
beneficiaries can say the 6,000,000 figure of total Jews killed "was
always in line" with the revised figures which came 45 years later.
	
	WARNING: Even though this gigantic modification to the story
has taken place and is currently accepted by the world, along with a
number of other major revisions, Holocaust revisionists still chipping
away at the credibility of the remaining story are still dubbed
"anti-Semites" and "neo-Nazis".
	
	
		
	


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:37 PST 1996
Article: 28578 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:09:27 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <315958c2.3748411@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net> <31540f50.3905551@news.pacificnet.net> <4j1j49$bjd@news.nyu.edu> <315554b8.1101905@news.pacificnet.net> <4j71hc$7d5@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-8.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>
>: >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: >: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >
>: >
>: >: 	Since the state of Israel is a religious state we can conclude
>: >: that any practices they committ are a process of their religion.
>: >
>: >No, for two reasons:
>: >
>: >(1)Israel is a Jewish state, but it is a democracy, not a theocracy.  
>: >There, a civilian government, not the religious structure, that has power.
>: >
>: >(2)Besides which, that's a load of garbage, akin to saying that a few 
>: >nuts who commit terrorism in the name of a misreading of the Koran prove 
>: >that terrorism is a process of Islam.
>
>: 	Seems the master wee wee-er has a difference of opinion with
>: the professor. The professor says Israel is not a religious state and
>: this one says it is. We can wait for the grand debate between these
>: two. 
>
>(Sigh) I know from your postings that English is not easy for you, but 
>try real hard, Li'l Tommy.  I did not say Israel was a religious state.
>In fact, I said the opposite -- "No, for two reasons" -- which part about 
>"No" do you find so difficult?

	(1)Israel is a Jewish state, but it is a democracy, not a
theocracy.  
There, a civilian government, not the religious structure, that has
power. Jeremy Litt

	So you are saying Israel is a Jewish state but not a religious
state? You are saying "Jewish" does not designate a religious
connection? What is the role of the Jewish state's "Ministry of
Religion"? Why do they have a menorah standing prominant in front of
the Kinesset building? 

>: As to Litt's "democracy" we can take it further it is a 
>: democratic religious state that suppresses none Jews. 
>
>Nice writing there, Li'l man.  And you can take it that far, but you'd be 
>wrong.  It's a democracy, not a religious state. It's a Jewish state, but 
>that ain't the same thing.
>
>: >Nuts are nuts.  You should know.  Look in a mirror.
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:38 PST 1996
Article: 28579 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:14:34 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <31595afd.4319192@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <3151759c.4190173@news.pacificnet.net> <31540f50.3905551@news.pacificnet.net> <4j1j49$bjd@news.nyu.edu> <315554b8.1101905@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-8.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Mar 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>> > >: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> >
>> >: 	Since the state of Israel is a religious state we can conclude
>> >: that any practices they committ are a process of their religion.
>> >
>> >No, for two reasons:
>> >
>> >(1)Israel is a Jewish state, but it is a democracy, not a theocracy.  
>> >There, a civilian government, not the religious structure, that has power.
>> >
>> >(2)Besides which, that's a load of garbage, akin to saying that a few 
>> >nuts who commit terrorism in the name of a misreading of the Koran prove 
>> >that terrorism is a process of Islam.
>> 
>> 	Seems the master wee wee-er has a difference of opinion with
>> the professor. The professor says Israel is not a religious state and
>> this one says it is. We can wait for the grand debate between these
>> two. 
>
>You are a poor reader, Mr. Moran--Both Dr. Keren and Mr. Litt reject your 
>claim that Israel is a "religious state."  That is, both argue quite 
>plainly that it is a secular democracy, not a theocracy.  
>
>Your confusion seems to arise from the eternal (and in some ways 
>unanswerable) question, "who is a Jew?"  Jews are themselves deeply 
>divided about this question I know how you ove that phrase). In fact, the 
>question of Jewish identity plays itself out as a source of constant 
>political tension in Israel: conflict between secular Jews (who consider 
>their Jewishness primarily a cultural/ethnic matter, and want the 
>government to remain secular) and very orthodox Jews (who want to 
>reshape Israel into a more orthodoxly theocratic state).

	Response given to Litt:	

	So you are saying Israel is a Jewish state but not a religious
state? You are saying "Jewish" does not designate a religious
connection? What is the role of the Jewish state's "Ministry of
Religion"? Why do they have a menorah standing prominant in front of
the Kinesset building? 

>: As to Litt's "democracy" we can take it further it is a 
>: democratic religious state that suppresses none Jews. 
>
>Nice writing there, Li'l man.  And you can take it that far, but you'd be 
>wrong.  It's a democracy, not a religious state. It's a Jewish state, but 
>that ain't the same thing.
>

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:38 PST 1996
Article: 28580 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: BIG BIG QUESTION
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:20:11 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <31595bd0.4530214@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-8.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

					
	The facts are that the Holocaust story has been considerable
modified in the direction the revisionist stance, which is that it is
99% untrue.
        The BIG BIG QUESTION is: Does anyone know if anything has been
revised in the other direction?


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:44 PST 1996
Article: 28696 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!news.titan.com!news.cerf.net!newsserver.sdsc.edu!news.tc.cornell.edu!news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.bright.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "333,000" Germans "eagerly" killed Jews
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 1996 15:22:26 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <3156b9f9.2717579@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <315551dc.369864@news.pacificnet.net> <315559be.2387589@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
>>
>>	According to the Holocaust story, Jonathan Jonah Goldhagen,
>>author of a upcoming book "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary
>>Germans and the Holocaust" representing, the Germans "assigned
>>virtually anyone who was available to the task" to kill Jews, which
>>added up to "333,000 - ordinary Germans" who "did so eagerly". 
>	Lets see. Goldhagen went through the archives and found the
>names of such people as the secretary who worked at the Zyklon B
>factory. Of course there is the janitor too.
	We shouldn't forget the bus driver who drove these people to
work either.


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:46 PST 1996
Article: 28740 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Kids Worked in Crematoria
Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:20:25 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <31594e3c.1054614@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-18.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	           Or - More Wacky Holocaust Tales

	 "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"

	"Jehuda Bacon was a 14-year-old member of the truck commando
who had to retrieve ashes from the crematoria to spread onto the the
icy paths during winter. He saw horrible events there, but also got to
know Kalman Furman, who was always friendly to the teens and ready to
help. Bacon remembers the '"Aryan"' kapo Jozef Ilezuk--a teacher who
allowed children, upon completion of their work, to warm themselves in
an empty gas chamber."

	Well, that certainly is a paragraph full. What a inferrence a
paragraph can make. Wow.

	Does this mean that kids played a role in the process of the
exterminations? Seems so.
	How much did he get to see of the operation while going in and
out to get the ashes? "He saw horrible events there".
	Where did the kids go after the shift of duty? Since this tale
is a continuation of the book's stating how the sondercommando got to
make discrete contact at times with the general prisoner population we
might assume the kids just went back to their barracks. They didn't
say anything because the SS told them all the "horrible things" were
to be kept a secret.
	Does this statement say they used the ashes to keep people
>from  slipping on the icy walk ways? Yikes. But hold it. What about
those stories about the ashes had to be further pulverized to
obliterate any solid remains? Well good thing, what with spreading the
remains around on icy paths all over camp we couldn't have any signs
of what it might really be.
	Are we to believe that the kids were taken or allowed to go to
the gas chamber cellars to warm up? Do they mean they went through the
rooms to the stairs, down the stairs to the gas chambers to get warm?
But what about the heat from the raging or idling burnings of multiple
furnaces in the cremation area? You'd think it would be pretty warm in
there. But then with all those dead bodies stacked up, as the story
goes, maybe there wasn't any room for them to stand.
	The Holocaust story says the cellar chambers were aired out
after each mass murder, which would tend to make them about as cold as
the outside. Oh', the chambers were heated the story could go?  But
then the story tells how hot buckets of coke were used to heat the
cellar chambers for the mass gassing, coke itself giving off carbon
monoxide, so it wouldn't have been used to heat the chambers just for
the children. 
	Since the Holocaust story has the sondercommandos themselves
using the gas chambers as living quarters, when they weren't in use of
course, we might suppose they and the kids all sat around and had
chats. Or maybe something like 'Hey you kids, shut up. We're trying to
sleep'.

	Yup. Something wacky on every page of a Holocaust book.  




From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:47 PST 1996
Article: 28768 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Magic Wand - deus ex machina
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:54:05 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <315ab5e4.1327207@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31594cbb.669590@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-23.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, tom moran re-posted:
>
>> 
>>                    - Argumentum ad hominem: -
>>                   
>>          "An irrelvant or malicious appeal to personal circumstances;
>> it consists in diverting an argument from sound facts and reasons to
>> the personality of the opponent."
>> 	         Calling the opponent names. 
>> 	         Making snide little remarks.
>> 
>> 	       Another term for it is, 'EVASION'.
>
>Oh, you mean like calling discussions of your logical fallacies 
>"wee-wee"?  Yes, that certainly is a bad thing, and I do wish you'd knock 
>it off.  
>
>Another form of evasion is refusing to answer questions.  For instance, 
>here are some questions you have NEVER answered, Mr. Moran:
>
>1) What U.S. court decision "deemed the menorah a secular symbol"? (Asked 
>since October 1995. Never answered)
>
>2) What evidence do you have that "_Schindler's List_" closed in both the 
>U.S. and in Europe after only two weeks? (Asked since Jan. 1996.  Never 
>answered)
>
>3) What evidence do you have that "_Schindler's List_", which grossed 
>over $100 million domestically, was a "bomb"?  (First asked in October 
>1995, the topic of a FAQ in early Feb. 1996.  Never answered.)
>
>4) Why have you falsely claim that Hilary Ostrov has ever written an 
>article of any kind in either the _New York Times_ or the _L.A. Times_? 
>(asked since oct/nov 1995.  Never answered)
>
>5) What *specific* posts by Keith Morrison indicate to you that he wants to 
>see Holocaust deniers jailed for their beliefs? (Asked since roughly 
>December 1995 [not sure about date on this one].  Never answered.)
>
>Those are a few unanswered questions, Mr. Moran.  Care to provide 
>some answers?  Without either "deus ex machina" or ad hominem attacks, of 
>course.

	Thank you for the tacit endorsement of the other 30 or 40
posts I have given.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:48 PST 1996
Article: 28769 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Urine Fixation (Was Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE)
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:04:37 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <315ab752.1692788@news.pacificnet.net>
References:  <315952d2.2228966@news.pacificnet.net> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-23.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

Marty Kelley  wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, tom moran wrote:
>
>> Marty Kelley  wrote:
>
>> >And how is *your* labelling the comments of people who disagree with you 
>> >"wee-wee" a form of rational argument, Mr. Moran?  
>> 
>> 	When I post the "Best of Jeremy Litt" I'll include your
>> endorsement. He's a good candidate for your proposed expose on
>> debating techniques on alt.rev. 
>
>I will certainly mention your recent habit of labelling everything by 
>people who disagree with you "wee-wee."  
>
>Would you kindly answer my questions, Mr. Moran?  Let me clarify:
>
>1) Why did you label ALL of Mr. Litt's reply to you, including those 
>parts which were not insulting, as "wee-wee"?

	My new policy is not to deal with child minds. Once I see the
child mind manifest I will ignore him

>2) Why do you persist in using such puerile ad hominem comments even as 
>you complain, in other posts, about ad hominem attacks?

	Thank you for the condemnation and record of your tacit
approval of your thinkalikes practices.

>3) In what ways does labelling other people's posts "wee-wee" and 
>"tinkle" constitute rational discourse?

	It is of course metaphor. Seems Litt has to say something in
response to every post. If he can't think of some wordy chutzpah he
merely says, "blablablablabla" or "hahahahahaha". Thank you for your
endorsement.

>----------------------
>Marty Kelley (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
>
>"I should be allowed to shoot my mouth off / I should have a call-in show....
>And I should be allowed to blurt the merest idea, if by random whim one 
>occurs to me. . ."  --They Might Be Giants 
>



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:48 PST 1996
Article: 28770 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Photos - Enemies of the myth.
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:10:35 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <315ab992.2268677@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-23.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

	
	Of all the hundreds and hundreds of photographs, perhaps unto
a thousand and more, there exist not one that can validify the
Holocaust myths. In fact they tend to deny it more than being able to
confirm it.

	Most Holcoaust books will give us a few photos, and we should
assume if they had anything of any consequence that could prove the
myth they would be included, featured, raved about, fingers pointing
with eager tremble, plastered on bill boards, shown on TV, in
magazines and the news papers, permanent fixtures in the class rooms,
enlarged to mural scope in the museums, presented on websites with
great fanfare and advertisement - but alas there are none. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:49 PST 1996
Article: 28771 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The more plans I see the more rediculous the story.
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:11:55 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <315aba36.2432957@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-23.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	One place to find a ready account by Pressac, one of the most
cited authorities for the Holocaust story is in the hideous book
"Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" a compilation of various writers
on various aspects of the Holocaust story.
	Under the chapter "The Machinery of Mass Murder at Auschwitz"
by Pressac and Van Pelt we are given a number of plans for
crematorium, said to have been drawn up by the Germans and taken from
Moscow archives.
	The first plans are for Crematorium I at Auschwitz I are not
actual German documents, but drawings for the publication that focus
on showing the various ventilation plans the Germans had considered.
The floor plans show the general layout of the building.
	According to the floor plans of this building, about 30 by 80
feet, the course of the procedure for mass extermination would be:

File the victims day after day unto thousands through a standard size
door into a "vestibule" about 15 feet long to another door way, file
right about 10 feet to another standard sized door to the "morgue"
(gassing area) which is about 10 by 40 feet, gas em, 300 to 1000 at a
time, take the bodies back out one at a time through the same door to
the ovens in the ajoining room, stack them up in any available space,
about 3 or 4 hundred sq. feet, while they are burned 3, 6 or 9 at a
time, empty the ashes and take them out through the door to the
"vestibule" and out through the other door to the outside.  While
burning the three hundred, say 10 at a time, Sonndercommandos are
filing in and out, getting the bodies from the gassing room or filing
in a new batch of 300 or so right past the stacked up bodies. Since
the gassing pace is 300 to whatever in only 10 minutes or so, and the
cremation pace is said to be 20 minutes or so for 10 bodies, make sure
the bodies are stacked as efficiently as possible so as to be able to
have thousands piled up in the available space of 3 or 4 hundred
square feet, while waiting for the cremation process.
	After each gassing ventilate the poisonous gases out into the
street, just 20 feet away from the SS Hospital, 30 feet from the
Administration building and jsut down the street from the Commodants
Office.
	Even though thousands must file through the complex to the
killing center day after day past many buildings and never return make
sure it is all done in secret. 






I-----------------------------------------------------------------I
I          I               _____________
I autopsy  I   
I  room    I                                                       I
I          I                                                     
I----   ----               _____________
I
I                                                                 I

____________     ______    ______________
I         I           I
I lay     I           I
I out     I           I 
I room    I  wash     I
I         I  room     I
I         I           I    _______________
I
I         I           I                                             I
I         I           I                                             I
I         I           I                                             I
I         I           I                                             I
-------------------------------------------------------------------







 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:50 PST 1996
Article: 28775 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "The Politics of Meaning"
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:30:10 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <315abd0d.3159560@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-23.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141


	Tikkun Magazine is a Jewish publication that is put out by
Michael Lerner. His most notable contribution to political thinking,
aside from raving for Jewish causes, is his well aired grand slogan:

	     "The politics of meaning".

	     A meaningless statement. 


From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:58 PST 1996
Article: 28997 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE - Ask Your Friends
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:15:53 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <315bf083.1355933@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <31594c2a.524259@news.pacificnet.net> <4jc0ef$fko@news.nyu.edu> <315ab347.658221@news.pacificnet.net> <4jenb0$fi7@larry.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>
>: 	Litt and his think alikes think Moran posts stuff out here ror
>: them, when Moran posts stuff out for the general reader. Stuff goes on
>: the screen, it goes off, it goes on again.
>
>Actually, stuff goes on the screen, is thoroughly refuted, and then
>goes on again as soon as Moran thinks we've forgotten about it.

	Where is that?

>Bill



From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:03:59 PST 1996
Article: 29001 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news
From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's hear both sides of the Holocaust issue
Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:54:38 GMT
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc.
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <315bf98d.3669978@news.pacificnet.net>
References: <315ABBE4.49DA@kaiwan.com> <4jgrcf$2hls@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141

ncrccjc@ibm.net (ncrccjc) wrote:

>Greg Raven  wrote:
>>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>
>>Nearly everyone has heard that the Germans killed some six million Jews
>>in Europe during the Second World War. American television, motion pictures,
>>newspapers and magazines hammer away on this theme. In Washington, DC, an
>>enormous official Holocaust Museum has been built.
>>

Scholars Challenge Holocaust Story

>>During the past decade, though, more and more "revisionist" historians, >>including respected scholars such as Dr. Arthur Butz of Northwestern University, >>Prof. Robert Faurisson of the University of Lyon in France and best-selling >>British historian David Irving, have been challenging the widely-accepted >>extermination story.
> >ncrccjc responds: > >Firstly, there is only one side to the Holocaust. That being the willfull >mass murder of 6,000,000 Jews during the years 1939-45 by the nazis. >It is the most documented tragedy in modern history. > >Secondly, Butz, Irving and Faurisson are as "respected" as >is UFO and Hitler loving Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel; loved >among their kooky followers. > >Raven and his friends remain stuck in the vortex of lies and hate. >If it wasn't so serious it would almost be laughable. A fine example of empiracal response. From tm@pacificnet.net Fri Mar 29 17:04:01 PST 1996 Article: 29022 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Tom Moran's Forgeries (Re: EVIL GERMAN PEOPLE) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:07:31 GMT Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc. Lines: 41 Message-ID: <315becc2.394745@news.pacificnet.net> References: <3156b409.1196705@news.pacificnet.net> <4j7etu$dj3@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141 dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: > ># If they are forgeries, why did I post them right next to the ># originals? > >I am not a mind(?) reader. Probably, you did it in order to make your >forgery seem more reliable; which is also why you posted your >non-existing testimony in exactly the same format as the real one. > >You are a very naughty boy, forging and lying in such a blatant >manner. Moreover, you should have learned from another "revisionist >scholar", Jeff Roberts, who made a royal ass of himself by posting >(a few dozen times in the same day), the notorious "revisionist" >forgery, known as the "Muller document". > >You revisionazis should learn that when you pull stunts like this, >they will be exposed sooner or later. Ask Jeff Roberts. Ask Alex >Baron. Ask Greg Raven. You should have been more careful. Thank you for admitting to your self at least, that the satire was written directly in the proximity of the original "testimony". Recall where I filled in some testimony in one of your posts, where at the end I commented on the lack of what I inserted. Notice where I did not intersperse any thing among the post in question. It is obvious satire. You just think have a little loop hole to focus on. Why don't you show it to your students and get their opinion? Pass the whole thing around campus. The original post, my added satire, your accusations and my replys. Take it over to the humanities dept. and have them use it in a class. Go ahead. Do it, P r o f e s s o r. > >-Danny Keren. > >-- >Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood. > >-Lu Xun. From chuckf@rio.com Sun Mar 31 09:13:25 PST 1996 Article: 29154 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!news.rio.com!news From: Chuck Ferree Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: "The Politics of Meaning" Date: 30 Mar 1996 05:27:17 GMT Organization: Northwest Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 167 Message-ID: <4jignl$f38@wave.rio.com> References: <315abd0d.3159560@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p49.t0.rio.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.12APPLE (Macintosh; U; 68K) To: tm@pacificnet.net X-URL: news:315abd0d.3159560@news.pacificnet.net To you maybe! But to me, it means something. Everything means something to someone. Mark Weber wrote: ³Letıs hear both sides of the Holocaust.² Chuck Ferree writes: Yeah, letıs do that, and knock off all the lies, half truths and put-downs. Many of the points Weber tries to make sound half-way reasonable, but as usual he slips into the ³revisionist² mode and has to shoot himself in the feet with speculation, distortion, belittlement and the redundant diatribe weıve all read before. It isnıt good enough to say that six million Jews were not killed by the Nazis in Europe during the Second World War, Weber has to blame someone. So he, singles out the media. Movies, TV newspapers, magazines, Holocaust victims and supporters of Holocaust Museums. He wants the truth to be buried, like it never happened. He doesnıt really know how many Jews, or other people were put to death by the Nazis and I doubt if anyone else has totally accurate numbers. Weber and the others like him canıt help bringing up the so-called evidence that Hitler and his gang of thugs never made any plans to exterminate Europeıs Jews, mass killings didnıt take place, gas chambers werenıt used to murder thousands of people, this is all false, according to Weberıs claims, citing a bunch of so-called scholars who wrote numerous books for each other to read. I think the statement made by so many ³deniers² that ³the Germans gassed no Jews in Germany proper,² is a silly cop out. Even quoting Simon Wiesenthal as having said ³there were no extermination camps on German soil.² I met with Mr. Wiesenthal 1n 1994, in his Vienna office, and he didnıt tell me that. Even if every single person killed by the Germans, Austrians, or anyone else, was shipped to other countries and killed there rather than on ³German soil,² so what. Does it make these people feel better to be able make such a ridiculous claim? Does it change anything? Does this claim make them feel like ³we didnıt do it in Germany, Poland maybe but not Germany?² Does the statement remove guilt from those Germans, Austrians or whoever did the mass killings? Hell no, itıs more triviality to change the subject, and these people really like to change the subject. Another unquestionably silly notion, especially for me as a WW-II pilot, is the harping about certain aerial reconnaissance photographs that prove (according to so-called experts) that no evidence shows up in these photos, of piles of corpses, smoking chimneys, and masses of Jews awaiting death. Most of if not all these photos were taken by bomber crews on their way to bomb factories near the huge Auschwitz-Birkenau complex. Only a person highly trained and skilled can actually read and interpret aerial photos. Iıve bombed and strafed targets that turned out to be rubber balloons, but the photos told us they were airplanes, tanks, and bunkers. Here again using the claim as gospel that Auschwitz couldnıt have been an extermination center, according to some poor quality aerial photos, Weber jumps to another stupid conclusion. It's not credible, and doesnıt prove a thing. Another claim is made only partially true, that the ³confessions² of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess, are a crucial part of the Holocaust extermination story. His ³alleged confession² is not at all crucial to the Holocaust facts and history. Most people never even heard of the guy. Maybe Hoess was tortured a little, but he wrote his Autobiography after he confessed and had been imprisoned in Poland. In his own words Hoess writes: ³I could never have brought myself to make this confession of my most secret thoughts and feelings, had I not been approached with a disarming humanity and understanding that I had never come to expect. It is of this humane understanding that I have tried to assist as best I can in throwing some light on matters that seemed obscure. I was approached with humanity,² said Hoess. This happened in the Polish prison where he stayed from May 25, 1946 until April 16, 1947, the day when he was executed. Professor Batawia one of the Polish interlocutors of the former Auschwitz commandant, makes the following statement about Hoess: ³The commandant of Auschwitz was not disturbed by the fact that he directed the gassing of millions of people, whose possessions he transferred to the Third Reich: but he was indignant when some SS-man, who had access to the belongings of the victims of mass murder, could not resist the temptation to take some of them.² Another lie, easy to prove as such, is the claim made that the unfortunate people seen in the horrific photos of dead and dying inmates taken at Bergen-Belsen, Nordhausen and other concentration camps were ³victims, not of an extermination program, but of disease and malnutrition...² The breakdown of the German transportation system made it impossible to supply adequate food and medicine to the camps. The allies made movement of troops, and supplies difficult, because we strafed everything that moved, trains, trucks, convoys, you name it. It would indeed be risky to operate a train filled with food and medicine to Bergen-Belsen, or the other camps. A truck loaded with food and medicine could get through, but I wouldnıt want to be the driver. Granted it was a problem, but tell me, Mr. Weber, how come the SS guards and the Kapos were not malnourished? How come when I went through Dachau on April 29th. 1945, I saw warehouses filled with all kinds of foodstuffs, much of it captured from Americans. None of the German SS, or ordinary guards, including SS women guards, were the least bit malnourished or sick. They were mostly over weight. Fat, sloppy, and ugly too, at least the ones I saw. Most of those victims died from neglect, froze to death because they had no blankets to keep warm, or were shot because they pissed some Nazi SOB off. Annihilate, is another way to say ³exterminate,² and there are many other words that mean the same thing. The Germans, made inmates walk all the way from Auschwitz to Buchenwald and other German camps. Thousands died enroute, many shot because they were too weary or sick to walk on. Why did the SS do that? To protect the Jews from the Russians? Sounds a little too kind to me, especially when most of them didnıt make it. I reject out of hand the claim that Bergen-Belsen was not an ³extermination camp.² Mauthausen wasnıt ³classified² as one either, but those Austrians, and Germans, sure as hell exterminated a lot of people there. So, the ³deniers² can continue to split all the hairs they want. They lose credibility every time one of them says something stupid...which happens a lot. For example: The premise promoted by people like Weber that no documents have ever been found which refers to an extermination program. Thatıs pure bull...hair-splitting. The Nazis had all kinds of code words for the final solution. The Nazis were dumb, but not that dumb. But the question is moot anyway, because the Nazi policy was to eliminate the Jews from Europe, and in the process they ³exterminated² millions. Many other points in Weberıs post could be called into question, but no one wants to read on and on. And most of us know this stuff already. One of the most demeaning suggestions in Weberıs posting is the absolutely offensive statements that ³Holocaust historians rely heavily on so-called Œsurvivor testimonyı to support the extermination story. But such Œevidenceı is notoriously unreliable. As one Jewish historian has pointed out Œmost of the memoirs and reports of ŒHolocaust survivorsı are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overstated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks, and apologies.² Now I ask you, is that a mouthful of baloney or what? In other words, we canıt believe the words of ³survivors,² witnesses, SS camp commandants, Germans who betrayed each other to save their own asses, Liberators, who saw one hell of a lot more than any of the authors of so-called scholarly books, written to make a buck, like Weber criticizes the media of doing. We should believe Weber and others who know absolutely nothing about the Holocaust except what they read, or what some ³denier² speculates about. Itıs hogwash, Weber you know it, I know it, and the whole neighborhood knows it. Chuck Ferree From chuckf@rio.com Sun Mar 31 09:13:25 PST 1996 Article: 29155 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.webdirect.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.uoregon.edu!news.rio.com!news From: Chuck Ferree Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: "The Politics of Meaning" Date: 30 Mar 1996 05:27:42 GMT Organization: Northwest Internet Services, Inc. Lines: 167 Message-ID: <4jigoe$f38@wave.rio.com> References: <315abd0d.3159560@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p49.t0.rio.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.12APPLE (Macintosh; U; 68K) To: tm@pacificnet.net X-URL: news:315abd0d.3159560@news.pacificnet.net To you maybe! But to me, it means something. Everything means something to someone. Mark Weber wrote: ³Letıs hear both sides of the Holocaust.² Chuck Ferree writes: Yeah, letıs do that, and knock off all the lies, half truths and put-downs. Many of the points Weber tries to make sound half-way reasonable, but as usual he slips into the ³revisionist² mode and has to shoot himself in the feet with speculation, distortion, belittlement and the redundant diatribe weıve all read before. It isnıt good enough to say that six million Jews were not killed by the Nazis in Europe during the Second World War, Weber has to blame someone. So he, singles out the media. Movies, TV newspapers, magazines, Holocaust victims and supporters of Holocaust Museums. He wants the truth to be buried, like it never happened. He doesnıt really know how many Jews, or other people were put to death by the Nazis and I doubt if anyone else has totally accurate numbers. Weber and the others like him canıt help bringing up the so-called evidence that Hitler and his gang of thugs never made any plans to exterminate Europeıs Jews, mass killings didnıt take place, gas chambers werenıt used to murder thousands of people, this is all false, according to Weberıs claims, citing a bunch of so-called scholars who wrote numerous books for each other to read. I think the statement made by so many ³deniers² that ³the Germans gassed no Jews in Germany proper,² is a silly cop out. Even quoting Simon Wiesenthal as having said ³there were no extermination camps on German soil.² I met with Mr. Wiesenthal 1n 1994, in his Vienna office, and he didnıt tell me that. Even if every single person killed by the Germans, Austrians, or anyone else, was shipped to other countries and killed there rather than on ³German soil,² so what. Does it make these people feel better to be able make such a ridiculous claim? Does it change anything? Does this claim make them feel like ³we didnıt do it in Germany, Poland maybe but not Germany?² Does the statement remove guilt from those Germans, Austrians or whoever did the mass killings? Hell no, itıs more triviality to change the subject, and these people really like to change the subject. Another unquestionably silly notion, especially for me as a WW-II pilot, is the harping about certain aerial reconnaissance photographs that prove (according to so-called experts) that no evidence shows up in these photos, of piles of corpses, smoking chimneys, and masses of Jews awaiting death. Most of if not all these photos were taken by bomber crews on their way to bomb factories near the huge Auschwitz-Birkenau complex. Only a person highly trained and skilled can actually read and interpret aerial photos. Iıve bombed and strafed targets that turned out to be rubber balloons, but the photos told us they were airplanes, tanks, and bunkers. Here again using the claim as gospel that Auschwitz couldnıt have been an extermination center, according to some poor quality aerial photos, Weber jumps to another stupid conclusion. It's not credible, and doesnıt prove a thing. Another claim is made only partially true, that the ³confessions² of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess, are a crucial part of the Holocaust extermination story. His ³alleged confession² is not at all crucial to the Holocaust facts and history. Most people never even heard of the guy. Maybe Hoess was tortured a little, but he wrote his Autobiography after he confessed and had been imprisoned in Poland. In his own words Hoess writes: ³I could never have brought myself to make this confession of my most secret thoughts and feelings, had I not been approached with a disarming humanity and understanding that I had never come to expect. It is of this humane understanding that I have tried to assist as best I can in throwing some light on matters that seemed obscure. I was approached with humanity,² said Hoess. This happened in the Polish prison where he stayed from May 25, 1946 until April 16, 1947, the day when he was executed. Professor Batawia one of the Polish interlocutors of the former Auschwitz commandant, makes the following statement about Hoess: ³The commandant of Auschwitz was not disturbed by the fact that he directed the gassing of millions of people, whose possessions he transferred to the Third Reich: but he was indignant when some SS-man, who had access to the belongings of the victims of mass murder, could not resist the temptation to take some of them.² Another lie, easy to prove as such, is the claim made that the unfortunate people seen in the horrific photos of dead and dying inmates taken at Bergen-Belsen, Nordhausen and other concentration camps were ³victims, not of an extermination program, but of disease and malnutrition...² The breakdown of the German transportation system made it impossible to supply adequate food and medicine to the camps. The allies made movement of troops, and supplies difficult, because we strafed everything that moved, trains, trucks, convoys, you name it. It would indeed be risky to operate a train filled with food and medicine to Bergen-Belsen, or the other camps. A truck loaded with food and medicine could get through, but I wouldnıt want to be the driver. Granted it was a problem, but tell me, Mr. Weber, how come the SS guards and the Kapos were not malnourished? How come when I went through Dachau on April 29th. 1945, I saw warehouses filled with all kinds of foodstuffs, much of it captured from Americans. None of the German SS, or ordinary guards, including SS women guards, were the least bit malnourished or sick. They were mostly over weight. Fat, sloppy, and ugly too, at least the ones I saw. Most of those victims died from neglect, froze to death because they had no blankets to keep warm, or were shot because they pissed some Nazi SOB off. Annihilate, is another way to say ³exterminate,² and there are many other words that mean the same thing. The Germans, made inmates walk all the way from Auschwitz to Buchenwald and other German camps. Thousands died enroute, many shot because they were too weary or sick to walk on. Why did the SS do that? To protect the Jews from the Russians? Sounds a little too kind to me, especially when most of them didnıt make it. I reject out of hand the claim that Bergen-Belsen was not an ³extermination camp.² Mauthausen wasnıt ³classified² as one either, but those Austrians, and Germans, sure as hell exterminated a lot of people there. So, the ³deniers² can continue to split all the hairs they want. They lose credibility every time one of them says something stupid...which happens a lot. For example: The premise promoted by people like Weber that no documents have ever been found which refers to an extermination program. Thatıs pure bull...hair-splitting. The Nazis had all kinds of code words for the final solution. The Nazis were dumb, but not that dumb. But the question is moot anyway, because the Nazi policy was to eliminate the Jews from Europe, and in the process they ³exterminated² millions. Many other points in Weberıs post could be called into question, but no one wants to read on and on. And most of us know this stuff already. One of the most demeaning suggestions in Weberıs posting is the absolutely offensive statements that ³Holocaust historians rely heavily on so-called Œsurvivor testimonyı to support the extermination story. But such Œevidenceı is notoriously unreliable. As one Jewish historian has pointed out Œmost of the memoirs and reports of ŒHolocaust survivorsı are full of preposterous verbosity, graphomanic exaggeration, dramatic effects, overstated self-inflation, dilettante philosophizing, would-be lyricism, unchecked rumors, bias, partisan attacks, and apologies.² Now I ask you, is that a mouthful of baloney or what? In other words, we canıt believe the words of ³survivors,² witnesses, SS camp commandants, Germans who betrayed each other to save their own asses, Liberators, who saw one hell of a lot more than any of the authors of so-called scholarly books, written to make a buck, like Weber criticizes the media of doing. We should believe Weber and others who know absolutely nothing about the Holocaust except what they read, or what some ³denier² speculates about. Itıs hogwash, Weber you know it, I know it, and the whole neighborhood knows it. Chuck Ferree From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 31 09:13:31 PST 1996 Article: 29254 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!news.onramp.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: BIG BIG QUESTION Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:22:21 GMT Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <315bf1cb.1683890@news.pacificnet.net> References: <31595bd0.4530214@news.pacificnet.net> <29MAR199605593550@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141 dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote: >In article <31595bd0.4530214@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes... >> >> The facts are that the Holocaust story has been considerable >>modified in the direction the revisionist stance, which is that it is >>99% untrue. >> The BIG BIG QUESTION is: Does anyone know if anything has been >>revised in the other direction? > > Well, Hilberg estimated 5.1 million Jews died in the Holocaust. Most > historians since him have focused in on a number slightly greater than > that. When you say "slightly greater" do you mean 900,000 or 1,000,000 more? > daniel david mittleman >=========================================================================== > Quoth the Raven: "Never happened." From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 31 09:13:32 PST 1996 Article: 29265 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!news.onramp.net!newshost.convex.com!news.duke.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!nntp.coast.net!pravda.aa.msen.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news1.erols.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: BEHOLD THE LIE - Ask Your Friends Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:44:05 GMT Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <315ab347.658221@news.pacificnet.net> References: <31594c2a.524259@news.pacificnet.net> <4jc0ef$fko@news.nyu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-23.pacificnet.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141 jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote: >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote: > >{Li'L Tommy's repost (yawn) of the papmphlet on the 4,000,000 figure snipped} > >Boy, this newsgroup is getting exciting. After all that discussion on >the 4,000,000 number, and the Lack of acceptance by the world of the >Polish figure, along comes Li'l Tommy, who posts a pamphlet he got from >IHR as if none of that discussion ever happened. > >Which Revisionist tactic was this, #8? (After being demplished, wait a >few weeks and then post again as if nothing happened). Which pamphlet was this? Litt and his think alikes think Moran posts stuff out here ror them, when Moran posts stuff out for the general reader. Stuff goes on the screen, it goes off, it goes on again. From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 31 09:13:33 PST 1996 Article: 29278 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.tcst.com!news.spectrum.titan.com!dildog.lgc.com!news.sesqui.net!oitnews.harvard.edu!rutgers!venus.sun.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news2.cais.com!news From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Jewish population today - 13, 16 or 20 million Date: Fri, 29 Mar 1996 14:50:54 GMT Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <315bf83e.3334496@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-20.pacificnet.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141 Holocaust books donate a considerable amount of space to establishing a Jewish population in Europe to be able to maintain the 6,000,000 Jewish victims claim. This topic is covered to a certain degree on alt.rev. under "Hebrew Numerology". Tallying of the Jewish population takes on the same dynamics as the evolving numerology of the Holocaust story in general, where anywhere between 300,000 and 4,000,000 Jews were killed at Auschwitz, 10, 11 or 12 million people in all were exterminated by Germany, that anywhere btween 7, 8 or 9 hundred thousand Jews were in Hungary - etc. That anywhere from 200,000 to 450,000 were shipped off to Auschwitz and exterminated. Even to this day there seems to be a wide variation as to the existing Jewish population in the world. Figures that pop up here and there range from 13 million to 16 million to 20 million, take your pick. Since the Jews accounting of their numbers at this time is so widely varied, what with all the technology, how can we accept their accounts of their population during and preceding the Holocaust story. From tm@pacificnet.net Sun Mar 31 17:32:32 PST 1996 Article: 4302 of soc.history Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.cais.net!news2.cais.com!news From: tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) Newsgroups: soc.history,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship Subject: Re: Auschwitz: The 4-Million Date: Wed, 27 Mar 1996 14:10:10 GMT Organization: Capital Area Internet Service, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <31594c3d.543922@news.pacificnet.net> References: <4faroe$h1d@ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ftd56$l44@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1-18.pacificnet.net X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99c/16.141 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history:4302 alt.revisionism:28559 alt.censorship:75175 Mc Vays long endeavor is what he implies is a "rudimentary" presentation to discount that the public is widely under the assumption that 4,000,000 people died at Auschwitz, with 3,000,000 of them being Jews. The 536 lines McVay has used here is a sign of how serious the Holocaust faction views this revision. He tries to say revisionists were not charged with being anti-Semitic for questioning the validity of the accounts, when in fact his own page and all the other Holocaust promotion pages are still referring to them as "neo-Nazis", "anti-Semites" and "racists" for further questioning further details of the Holocaust story. He also tries to deny that revisionists are responsible for the grand reduction of the Auschwitz numbers, when in fact it wasn't the likes of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, or Reitlingler, or Hilberg or any other Holocaust story teller. If it wasn't for revisionist challenges to the story we could bet the number would still be 4,000,000 people killed at Auschwitz with 3,000,000 of them being Jewish. He can point to some of the accounts as proof that the old figures were not presented by some historians, but he can not show they are even close to a majority and would not be able to show it was they that were involved in the reduction, even though we must conclude they were aware that 4,000,000/3,000,000 figure was rampant in the minds of the masses. The reduction of the Auschwitz numbers is the major first step in the credibility of the whole story going by the wayside. It is my experience, that when this Auschwitz reduction is presented to people they are ready and willing to doubt more. Three million discrepancy is no small number. It is such a whopper that people are shocked. McVay could have presented a number of other "historian" assertions, like Nora Levin who said up to 2,300,000 Jews died at Auschwitz or we can look at Yehuda Bauer's 1,500,000 to 3,500,000 Jews died at Auschwitz. Even here we can see that Bauer's figures are one number or 2 1/2 times that number. The Holocaust story tosses around numbers in the millions as if it was nothing. A corrupt state of affairs.

Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.