The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/mittleman.daniel/1996/mittleman.0696


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jun 25 07:12:13 PDT 1996
Article: 45816 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's Start At Square One
Date: 24 Jun 1996 22:50 MST
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In article <31cecd42.8525348@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> 
>>
>>Something that would be very helpful is to start collecting all the
>>eyewitness accounts to gassings at all locations.  I seem to recall there
>>are maybe 200 or so, including testimony of former SS in post war trials.
> 
>	This is definitely one of the things that can kill the myth the
>fastest. The inconsistencies in testimonies. Say you have 200 accounts
>and there are a hundred inconsistencies - which ones are true? Theres
>no way of telling. The only thing that is left is the obvious. That
>many are lies.

    Actually, the research on this subject -- both with the Holocaust and
    other events where there are many witnesses -- argues that there will
    be major inconsistencies in most cases.  But researchers don't
    attribute this to lying, they attribute this to imprecision on the part
    of witnesses who are trying to recount details which happened during
    periods of great stress.

    Holocaust researchers (the real kind) have known all along that eye
    witness testimony is subject to error and that there are a great many
    mistakes being recounted.  Serious Holocaust researchers factor this
    into their work.  Little if any *fact* is conveyed about the Holocaust
    due solely to eye witness testimony.

    On the other hand, eye witness testimony can be very useful in two
    ways.  One, it can serve as validation for archival or forensic
    evidence.  And two, it can -- when triangulated among many independent
    eye witnesses -- be used to created a mosaic to describe molar
    activities.

    So rather than "kill[ing] the myth" as you put it, eye witness
    testimony is a valuable tool for researchers when its context and use
    are properly understood.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jun 25 10:11:01 PDT 1996
Article: 69055 of control
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                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue Jun 25 22:20:18 PDT 1996
Article: 45988 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: 24 Jun 1996 18:38 MST
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In article <31cebd88.4499016@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	In the Holocaust book "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp" we
>are given a photo with the caption: "Arrival and selection of
>Hungarian Jews at Auschwitz, 1944. Credit: Yad Vashim, Jeruselem".
>	The word "selection" is Holocaust vernacular is always used to
>designate those who are selected to go to the gas chamber.

>	This photo shows a couple of hundred people on a landing along
>side of rail tracks in the Auschwitz camp, which are seperated into
>men and women.
> 
>	We are to assume from the "selection" word that either all the
>women are to go off to the gas chamber but not the men, or vice versa,
>when in fact the camp was segregated into mens camp and womens camp.

    Why are we to assume this?  Could it not be that the lines in the
    picture are *pre-selection* lines?

>	The ground level platform is only a couple of hundred yards
>inside of the towered entrance to the camp which is distinctly seen in
>the back ground. This would mean that the newly arrived prisoners were
>not unloaded in the immediate area of Cremas II and III where the
>tracks terminate within the camp, another 7 or 8 hundred yards on down
>the track from this photo location.

    So?  And of course this assumes that they arrived on the tracks you
    mention above.  You may recall that there was a discussion here last
    Fall about how the rail spur was changed at some point in 1944.  Do you
    know when this picture was taken?  Do you know that the picture
    corresponds with a time when the rail spur was hundreds of yards away? 
    It might, but I suspect you don't know - you are just shooting in the
    dark.

>	Contrary to Holocaust facts that say the procedure took place at
>night, the photo shows these people unloaded in broad daylight.

    What Holocaust fact way the procedure always took place at night? 
    Citation please.  I suspect you are just making this "fact" up.

>	Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
>the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
>right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
>another 60 or 70 feet away. This would mean that 12,000 people a day
>were unloaded in clear view of the prisoners barracks contrary to
>Holocaust facts that assert the whole operation was concealed from the
>rest of the camp.

    It was the gas chambers that were concealed (and not all that
    successfully by the way).  The selection process was not concealed.

>	This would mean that on an average, 12,000 people a day had to
>march down the 6 to 7 hundred yards to the Cremas II and III areas,
>past the rest of the camp, mens on one side and womens on the other.

    If the railroad were always in the same place and if the selection
    process and location never varied, then maybe it would.  So?

>	This would be day after day, week after week, month after month,
>12,000 people a day would parade past the rest of the camp never to
>show up as new prisoners. 

    Ibid.

>	Idiotic Holocaust facts have it that Treblinka was built out in a
>obscure area so as to hide the mass extermination that is alleged to
>have taken place there, yet after this one was destroyed the Germans
>chose Auschwitz for the new exrtermination center, right there between
>two Polish towns in a camp that had 100,000 prisoners and used 1000
>civilian workers from these towns.  

    So which "idiotic" facts are you disputing?  Are you disputing that
    Auschwitz existed?  Are you disputing that there were deaths there? 
    Are you disputing the railroad records counting how many arrived?  Are
    you disputing the judgment of the Nazis for placing the camp where they
    did?  Be specific here.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu Jun 27 12:28:52 PDT 1996
Article: 46284 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz photos deny the lie
Date: 25 Jun 1996 22:31 MST
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In article <31cfeae9.1953297@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
> 
>>
>>    Why are we to assume this?  Could it not be that the lines in the
>>    picture are *pre-selection* lines?
> 
>	"Pre-selection"? Is that what it says? "Pre-selection", is this
>guy corrupt or what?

    No.  I just asked a simple question.  Are these people in line waiting
    to be selected (pre-selection line) or in line already having been
    selected (post selection line.)  I note that you didn't answer my
    question.  I apologize if I was not clear.  Please put back your
    original assertion (which you have clipped out) and answer it now.

>>>	The ground level platform is only a couple of hundred yards
>>>inside of the towered entrance to the camp which is distinctly seen in
>>>the back ground. This would mean that the newly arrived prisoners were
>>>not unloaded in the immediate area of Cremas II and III where the
>>>tracks terminate within the camp, another 7 or 8 hundred yards on down
>>>the track from this photo location.
>>
>>    So?  And of course this assumes that they arrived on the tracks you
>>    mention above.  You may recall that there was a discussion here last
>>    Fall about how the rail spur was changed at some point in 1944.  Do you
>>    know when this picture was taken?  Do you know that the picture
>>    corresponds with a time when the rail spur was hundreds of yards away? 
>>    It might, but I suspect you don't know - you are just shooting in the
>>    dark.
>>
>	I go by what the photo shows. You can use your 'imagination'. 

    And I repeat: So?

>>>	Contrary to Holocaust facts that say the procedure took place at
>>>night, the photo shows these people unloaded in broad daylight.
>>
>>    What Holocaust fact way the procedure always took place at night? 
>>    Citation please.  I suspect you are just making this "fact" up.
> 
>	It is mentioned in Holocaust books galore. Do I have the exact
>pages right here and now? No. Do I have it in my memory? Yes. 

    Holocasut books *galore* say that the selection procedure always took
    place at night?  You have it in your memory that this is the case, but
    have no books to back you up?  We have a photograph right here (the one
    being discussed) which purports you are wrong.  So, go find citations
    *galore* or retract this error.

>>>	Also obvious is the womens camp in the righthand background, with
>>>the fence that is clearly visible just 60 or 70 feet away. We can see
>>>right through this fence to the womens barracks, which are just
>>>another 60 or 70 feet away. This would mean that 12,000 people a day
>>>were unloaded in clear view of the prisoners barracks contrary to
>>>Holocaust facts that assert the whole operation was concealed from the
>>>rest of the camp.
>>
>>    It was the gas chambers that were concealed (and not all that
>>    successfully by the way).  The selection process was not concealed.
> 
>	So 12,000 a day are "selected" right there in open view of the
>thousands of camp inmates and the civilian workers, day after day,
>week after week, month after month, never to show up in the camp as
>prisoners?

    Yes.  (Though I am not certain of the 12,000 a day assertion.)
    Your point?

>>>	This would mean that on an average, 12,000 people a day had to
>>>march down the 6 to 7 hundred yards to the Cremas II and III areas,
>>>past the rest of the camp, mens on one side and womens on the other.
>>
>>    If the railroad were always in the same place and if the selection
>>    process and location never varied, then maybe it would.  So?

    I repeat.  So?

>>>	This would be day after day, week after week, month after month,
>>>12,000 people a day would parade past the rest of the camp never to
>>>show up as new prisoners. 
>>
>>    Ibid.

    I repeat.  So?

>>>	Idiotic Holocaust facts have it that Treblinka was built out in a
>>>obscure area so as to hide the mass extermination that is alleged to
>>>have taken place there, yet after this one was destroyed the Germans
>>>chose Auschwitz for the new exrtermination center, right there between
>>>two Polish towns in a camp that had 100,000 prisoners and used 1000
>>>civilian workers from these towns.  
>>
>>    So which "idiotic" facts are you disputing?  Are you disputing that
>>    Auschwitz existed?  Are you disputing that there were deaths there? 
>>    Are you disputing the railroad records counting how many arrived?  Are
>>    you disputing the judgment of the Nazis for placing the camp where they
>>    did?  Be specific here.

    I note that none of the above questions were answered.  In fact, Tommy
    did very little answering of my questions other than asserting facts
    *galore* which are directly BtXB2~)vDeeHm
    
    r#Y{SoQ
>>                         daniel david mittleman 
>>===========================================================================
>>                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jun 29 07:30:37 PDT 1996
Article: 46643 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: John F. Kennedy, neo-Nazi ?
Date: 28 Jun 1996 06:56 MST
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In article <31d2a3b6.738356@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	Since there is enough and plenty of record to show that Jews
>would have the world think Holocaust deniers are "neo-Nazis" it would
>follow that if John F.Kennedy had written his objections about the
>propriety of the Nuremberg trials this could put him in ranks of the
>neo-Nazi.

    1. Who has said that ALL Holocaust deniers are neo-Nazis?  I know that
    I have posted the opposite.  In fact I said that you and Giwer were
    examples of Holocaust dinier lunatics rather than neo-Nazis.

    2. Why is questioning the propriety of the Nuremberg trials the same
    thing as denying the Holocaust?

    So you have two linkages to demonstrate to make your post anyting more
    than gibberish.  (i.e. lunatic gibberish)

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jun 29 13:20:56 PDT 1996
Article: 46761 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 29 Jun 1996 09:38 MST
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>In article <4qphat$kki@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) said:
> 
>>I don't consider it a hoax by a long shot.  I think that there are
>>elements to the story that do not make sense to _me_ and I feel that I
>>should have the right to discuss my skepticism without reprisal.  OTOH, if
>>all people want to do here is sling it, I can do that, too.
> 
>>But anyway, you are wrong.  There are not *thousands* of eyewitnesses to
>>gassings.  At most a couple of hundred, and that includes Nazi
>>confessions.  I personally have discussed the war with several survivors
>>who suffered during the war, including a half dozen in the camps,
>>including 4 who were at A-B.  None of them knew about gassings.

    I personally discussed sexual harassment on college campuses with
    several professors none of whom knew about such harassment.  Ergo no
    harassment exists.  QED

    I personally discussed drug use on college campuses with several
    students none of whom knew about such use.  Ergo no drug use exists on
    college campuses.  QED.

    See the fallacy of your logic yet?

    How do your discussions eliminate the hundreds of eye witness
    testimonies you mention above?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jun 29 13:20:57 PDT 1996
Article: 46762 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: THAT'S chutzpah! [was:What is "chutzpah"?]
Date: 29 Jun 1996 09:51 MST
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In article <4r2ef4$ba5@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes...
>In <28JUN199621051259@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes: 
[In response to Tom Moran suggesting that all Jews think alike] 
>>  Whatever happened to that old barb, "Ask ten Jews a question and you
>>  get eleven opinions?"
>>
>>                         daniel david mittleman 
> 
>  Mr. Mittleman, perhaps you expect that nice, quaint and mildly
>amusing cliche to address the substantive issues -- I think most people
>see right through it, though.
>  Far from any arbitrary group of "ten Jews" holding "eleven opinions,"
>it may be more realistic and illustrative to look at the virtual
>UNANIMITY among American Jews AGAINST the Vietnam War and, some twenty 
>                              ^^^^^^^

    Henry Kissenger?

>years later, their virtual UNANIMITY in SUPPORTING the Persian Gulf    
>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^
>War.

    I would have to go back and check for names but I recall in the Fall of
    1990 a large block of Democratic Congressmen opposed US intervention in
    the Persian Gulf.  I bet some of those Congressmen were Jewish.  Shall
    I check for you?

>  THAT'S chutzpah...

    [Several paragraphs of anti-semitic drivel deleted.]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jun 29 15:46:29 PDT 1996
Article: 46805 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Public Apology from Rev. Ron
Date: 29 Jun 1996 13:47 MST
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In article , joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) writes...
>In article <4r2jt3$lva@tribune.concentric.net> "Ronald C. Schoedel"  writes:
> 
>There's an amazing coincidence to report.  
> 
>Ron Schoedel finds himself alone and jobless, desperately seeking some 
>sort of work, and with good reason to believe that knowledge of his 
>bigoted activities on the part of the lunatic "Christian Identity" cult (see 
>his web site at http://www.alaska.net/~schoedel) might, in some ways, make him 
>a less than totally desirable employee.    
> 
>It's at that time that he issues a vague and general public apology -- notice, 
>not a specific one -- and while still, for example, posting that hoary 
>forgery, The Protocols, on his web site.  
> 
>There's been no change of heart here, and nobody's fooled, Ron.   It's just 
>more convenient for you, now, to play the reformed bigot, the 
>ex-white-supremacist. 
> 
>But as you whine off into the sunset, muttering insincere buttery platitudes, 
>you, like Mortie Kleim, have -- with your own words, by your own efforts, over 
>months and years -- branded yourself as the bigot you are, leaving the mark of 
>Cain, self-administered, on your own forehead.  

    And, thanks to Nizkor, there will always remain a record of Reverend
    Ron (and Uncle Miltie) in his own words.  So someday when he tries to
    pull a David Duke and go mainstream, everyone will be able to read the
    Reverend in his own words and judge for themselves whether or not he is
    a changed man.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jun 29 15:46:30 PDT 1996
Article: 46807 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: 29 Jun 1996 13:44 MST
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In article <31d540e1.7635069@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31d48fd5.5945521@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>In article <31d2fb2f.23130620@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>>> 
>>>>>	It would seem that if someone claims they had lost 120, 160
>>>>>or more relatives in the Holocaust, that some of them must have been
>>>>>sondercommandos who performed most of the grizzly deeds of the
>>>>>extermiantion process, such as, shoving the victims into gas chambers,
>>>>>pulling the teeth out of dead bodies, cutting their stomachs open in
>>>>>search of swallowed valuables, stuffing the remains into ovens,
>>>>>tossing them into firey pits.
>>>>> 
>>>>>	The story has it there were those firey pits, and four
>>>>>extermination facilities. The story has it these sondercommands were
>>>>>killed every two weeks or so and then a new batch was brought in. This
>>>>>would be, say 200 or so every two weeks, times say, 100+ two week
>>>>>periods, being 20,000+ altogether.	
>>>>> 
>>>>>	The odds are ...?
>>>>
>>>>    Well, if there were 6,000,000 Jewish victims of the Holocaust and
>>>>    20,000 were sondercommandos then that is about .33 percent or one in
>>>>    300.  So, without knowing any more about the person who lost 120 to 160
>>>>    relatives we would estimate that it is much less than 50/50 odds that
>>>>    one of them was a sondercommando.
>>>>
>>>	Then you are saying that all 6,000,000 were put to death in the
>>>"extermination camps"?
>>
>>    No, I am saying that if a Jew had 120 or 160 relatives die in the
>>    Holocaust that they came from a pool of 6,000,000 or so.  I am not
>>    saying anything about how they died in first the sentence above.
>>
>>    Lets use Yale as an example.  All he has told us is that his relatives
>>    died in the Holocaust.  He hasn't told us how they died (or if he did,
>>    I dont recall him doing so.)  If he told us that they all died by
>>    gassing in the extermination camps, then the pool we would work from
>>    would be about 3,000,000 Jews.  And the odds calculated would change.

    I note that you no longer are disputing the way I have structured this
    math problem.  So, as it is, the liklihood of a Jewish survivor being
    related to a sonderkommando is fairly small - but existent.  And the
    significance of such an event is exactly the same as someone today
    being related to a any less than perfectly upstanding person fifty
    years ago: absolutely no significance at all.

>	Actually the only thing Mr.Edeiken has said is, he lost 160
>relatives in the Holocaust, nothing else. He did say about two months
>ago that he would be posting the names that weekend (two months ago).

    Actually, he said he would e-mail them to you.  If he hasn't, please
    take it up with him privately.

>	He must still be trying to pick some out of the 3,000,000 names
>at Yad Vashim. If he ever gets around to it, we'll ask him for the
>documentation to show they were his relatives and that they were lost
>in the Holocaust.

    Frankly, I don't know why he offered you a list in the first place. 
    Propitiating pathetic bigots is not something I would ever recommend. 
    I hope that he does not continue to humor you past fulfilling what he
    has promised.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jun 29 15:46:31 PDT 1996
Article: 46812 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ADL rabbi trys to weasel
Date: 29 Jun 1996 14:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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Someone posted: 
>Marty Kelley  wrote:
>>On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, tom moran wrote:

>>> 	After you have witnessed a number of idiotic ethnocentric, racist
>>> and hateful murmurings by rabbis, it becomes evident where the rest of
>>> the Hebrew community gets their stuff. 
> 
>>And your "proof" that all Jews think alike is...?  If some rabbis are 
>>racists, does that therefore make all Jews racists?
> 
>>If I quote some racist comments by "Christian" ministers, will you then 
>>argue that it's reasonable to assume that all Christians agree?
> 
>	One of the most prominently know racists in modern times, Meier Kanahe
>was defended by many Jews simply because he was Jewish.  He even
>organized a terrorist organization, the JDL, without receiving public
>condemnation for doing so or condemnation of the organization save by
>the US Defense Department which plays by its own rules not political
>rules.  (Morris Dees never heard of those organized terrorists.)  

    I am not an expert on Kahane, but I am under the impression that most
    of the Jewish community distanced themselves from him and that in the
    end his political party was declared illegal in Israel?  Am I correct
    in my recollections?  Isn't this - or actions like this - very
    different than Giwer's suggestion that Kahane was defended or supported
    by the Jewish community?

    And, Tommy, isn't the fact that there was a split over Kahane's views
    evidence that the Jewish community is not monolithic?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jun 29 15:46:32 PDT 1996
Article: 46822 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: 24 Jun 1996 18:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <31cec77a.7045339@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>Question:
>	The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>is:
> 
>	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

    Definitely this.

>	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>money. 

    I suspect that there is *some* desire to instill guilt on the part of
    *some* Jews.  To argue it is to justify Zionist policies is backwards. 
    It presumes that maybe the Holocaust did not happen.  The world (save a
    few lunatics) know that it did. I think the idea of financial extortion
    from the Holocaust is rather stupid.  Most all of these people would
    much rather have their relatives back.  No amount of money can replace
    that.  The requests for financial reparations from Germany have been
    fairly small - and in recent years have been limited to requests for
    return of (or payment for) land taken from the Jews by the Nazis and
    return of money and property taken from the Jews by the Nazis.  One can
    argue whether such reparations make sense at this late date, but it is
    simply mean to call the request extortion. 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat Jun 29 15:46:33 PDT 1996
Article: 46824 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Between the lines
Date: 28 Jun 1996 20:40 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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    The wonderful thing about freedom of speech is that the bigots of the
    world don't need to be rooted out -- they make their idiocy clear all
    on their own.  To wit:

In article <31d2f7c9.22261157@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
> 
>	On June 14 this following account was posted on alt.revisionism. 
> 
>	
>	"Southern Baptist Convention Votes to Try to Convert Jews"
>                    N.Y. Times, June 14, 1996
> 
>	"The Southern Baptist Convention today adopted a resolution
>calling for efforts to convert Jews.
> 
>	Early reaction to the Southern Baptist's resoultion, ...
>suggested that it was certain to strain relations with Jewish groups.
> 
>	News of the resolution, and of the missionary appointment,
>brought criticism in interviews with two leading Jewish specialists in
>interreligious relations.
> 
>	'My reaction is this is a great setback', said Rabbi A. James
>Rudin, ... American Jewish Committee.
> 
>	Rabbi Leon Klenicki, ...Anti-Defamation League, ...said he was
>'very sad' about the resolution, 'Especially after the Holocaust,
>Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the Jews'.
>                         ______________
> 
>	Then on June 25 accomodation was given to the perpetrator of the
>hateful statement to give "clarification" to his staement, in a letter
>to the editor, N.Y.Times. Again, the initial statement being:
> 
>"Especially after the Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk
>about a mission to the Jews".
> 
>	The "clarification" by the rabbi was:
> 
>"Writing on the Southern Baptists' planned outreach to the Jewish
>community, Paul P. Baard (letter, June 18) addresses a statement I
>made as reported in a June 14 news article that requires
>clarification. I did not say Christians were guilty of the Holocaust.
>What I noted is that Christianity, until modern times, presented
>Judaism in a negative manner."
> 
>	The initial statement again was:  "Especially after the
>Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the
>Jews".	
>	
>	Then today, June 27, major accomodation on the editorial page was
>given for further clarification, with the writer being identified as:
>"Leonard Garment is a lawyer", under "Christian Soldiers".
> 
>	In the first paragraph he winds up "The resolution [to convert
>Jews] is the latest in a centuries long line of conversion efforts is
>so distasteful as to make the Baptists' action profoundly offensive."
> 
>	Garment's second paragraph recaps, in his own sleezy way what the
>essence of the first offending statement said:
>	"Two Jewish interfaith leaders have reacted properly. Rabbi A.
>James Rubin of the American Jewish Committee was quoted as having
>called the resolution a 'great set back'. Rabbi Leon Klenicki of the
>ADL said it made him 'very sad', going so far as to add that  in light
>of the Holocaust it would be more appropriate for the Baptists to
>'talk about a mission to the Christians'. 
> 
>	The full statement again: "Especially after the Holocaust,
>Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the Jews".
> 
>	It would have only taken Garment a few more words to give the
>full quote, but then his rendition ommitted the part about the
>Holocaust. 
> 
>	The sleezy lawyer then continues:
>	"But some reactions have been muted. Privatly, prominent Jews I
>asked about the resolution said they had not thought much about it, or
>that they would trust the free market in religious ideas to prevent
>anything bad from happening." "Bad from happening"?
> 
>	"When I talked about the resolution with several Christians who
>are friendly to Jewish concerns, they did not immediately see the
>problem. They reacted to the exhortation as an expression of freedom
>of speech or as a desire to share the great gift of one's faith. The
>furthest thing from their minds was associating conversion with
>animosity or coercive actions towards Jews. Yet historically both the
>animus and the coercion have been companions of conversions." (Evil
>Christian history)
> 
>	He soon goes onto recounting some select examples: "European
>Catholicism has the Spanish Inquisition to show as an end product of
>this cast of mind" and "Perhaps the most illustrative and
>consequnetial conversion events involved Martin Luther, the founder of
>German Protestantism." So we have the Jew making sure we get a dose of
>evil Catholicism and evil "German" Protestantism.
> 	He says Luther's attitude on Jews was because they refused to
>convert, when in fact he had a problem with the very characteristics
>of the Jewish faith itself.
>	He winds up in three or four paragraphs on how these faiths of
>today have made renunciations of any history they may have had,
>including "Aggressive evangelism aimed at Jews may seem relatively
>harmless in a society like ours, which is committed to tolerance. But
>in the future, here and elsewhere, convictions about others' perceived
>religious inferiority can easily turn into something ugly. We know
>this from history."
> 
>	"Aggressive" evangelism? 
> 
>	Anyway, it is obvious that he is plying between the lines,
>insinuating things like the Southern Baptist resolution could lead to
>another progrom and reiterates the rabbi's, "Especially after the
>Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the
>Jews." 
> 
>	Its obvious the Jews have gotten themselves into another flurry
>with stupid statements and now are out trying to undo the damage. They
>just can't keep their stupid mouths shut. They have no sense of
>propriety when directing their venom against the goyim host. And while
>they try to undo the damage as with the two follow ups, that have
>appeared in the N.Y.Times, they can't refrain from rubbing it in at
>the same time.
>	This idiot, Garment thinks his piece is great and will be a great
>soother to the incident, yet his little referrals here and there
>throughout his accomodation, the N.Y.Times has given him, are noticed.
> 
> 
>	The Jews own insulting stupid examples show how stupid the Jews
>think the goyim is.
> 
>	It also shows how readily Jews can get their crap into the U.S.
>press. 
> 
>	It ain't going to last forever.  
> 
>	Imagine, a member of the 1 or 2% making a statement like,
>"Especially after the Holocaust, Christians have no right to talk
>about a mission to the Jews" right in the middle of the 98% host.
> 
>I say "Especially after the Jews have made such a pain in the ass of
>themselves, they should keep their mouths shut, before they get
>themselves in any deeper.  

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jun 30 09:33:38 PDT 1996
Article: 46846 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The professor and his eyewitnesses
Date: 24 Jun 1996 18:28 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
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In article <31cebbd1.4060330@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran), notorious liar who posted forged
>>testimonies to this group, wrote:
>>
>># It seems the old deleted numbers for those said to have been
>># killed at Auschwitz, which was 4,000,000, was based on eyewitness
>># testimony and the new current figure of 1,000,000 was revised by
>># considering anything but eyewitness testimony.
>>
>>The 4 million figure was not based mainly on eyewitness testimony, 
>>but on a computation of how many corpses could have been cremated 
>>if the furnaces were working full time.
>>
>>It was an erroneous manner in which to estimate the number of
>>the victims because, actually, the extermination machinery at
>>Birkenau was idle at times, as a relatively small number of 
>>victims were being deported to the camp.
>>
>>This is why Western historian, such as Reitlinger, have dismissed
>>the 4 million figure long ago.
> 
>	Its always Reitlinger, out of the scores of other accounts that
>mimic the 4 million. One out of scores. 'Oh, look, theres a one black
>grain of sand on the beach of otherwise white grains of sand,
>therefore the beach is black', right professor?
>	If Reitlinger "dismissed the 4 million long ago" professor, why
>did so many go on to give higher numbers over the ensuing years? 

    Tommy, your credibility might climb above zero if you could cite a few
    of those Western historians post Reitlinger who "mimic the 4 million."

    I bet you can't.  There aren't any.

    But thanks for playing.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jun 30 09:33:38 PDT 1996
Article: 46904 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: 29 Jun 1996 18:38 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 34
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In article <4r461o$61f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes...
>In article <4qvn12$2a1e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
>McFee) writes:
> 
>>And I will add, for the 5th time, and I will note that Giwer has *never*
>>denied it, even back where he had the courage to respond to my posts
>other
>>than by stupid sigs, that the so-called harassment of Giwer's family and
>>son, was a concoction on *his* part.  In other words, he lied through his
>>teeth.  (Oh yes--I still have the proof.)
> 
>Sorry to disappoint you Gord, but I have received e-mails from individuals
>other than Giwer confirming that his son was harrassed by Marduk.  Since I
>keep the source and verbatim content of e-mails private, I cannot say
>more.

    1. Did we ever figure out who Marduk is?

    2. Did you notice that it was *one* letter than Giwer Jr. received
    (assuming it was not forged in house as has been suggested but no
    evidence has been presented for) and that every poster in this
    newsgroup sans Giwer who commented on the mailing immediately denounced
    it.

    So, if you consider one letter to Giwer Jr. to be harassment, then
    maybe he was harassed.  If you agree with Giwer's assertion that that
    letter stains all of the "holohuggers" in this newsgroup then you would
    be as looney as he is.

    I suspect that you are not looney and are open to reason.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jun 30 09:33:39 PDT 1996
Article: 46919 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Odds Are
Date: 29 Jun 1996 06:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 46
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References: <31d2fb2f.23130620@news.pacificnet.net> <28JUN199607123925@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31d48fd5.5945521@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <31d48fd5.5945521@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31d2fb2f.23130620@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>> 
>>>	It would seem that if someone claims they had lost 120, 160
>>>or more relatives in the Holocaust, that some of them must have been
>>>sondercommandos who performed most of the grizzly deeds of the
>>>extermiantion process, such as, shoving the victims into gas chambers,
>>>pulling the teeth out of dead bodies, cutting their stomachs open in
>>>search of swallowed valuables, stuffing the remains into ovens,
>>>tossing them into firey pits.
>>> 
>>>	The story has it there were those firey pits, and four
>>>extermination facilities. The story has it these sondercommands were
>>>killed every two weeks or so and then a new batch was brought in. This
>>>would be, say 200 or so every two weeks, times say, 100+ two week
>>>periods, being 20,000+ altogether.	
>>> 
>>>	The odds are ...?
>>
>>    Well, if there were 6,000,000 Jewish victims of the Holocaust and
>>    20,000 were sondercommandos then that is about .33 percent or one in
>>    300.  So, without knowing any more about the person who lost 120 to 160
>>    relatives we would estimate that it is much less than 50/50 odds that
>>    one of them was a sondercommando.
>>
>	Then you are saying that all 6,000,000 were put to death in the
>"extermination camps"?

    No, I am saying that if a Jew had 120 or 160 relatives die in the
    Holocaust that they came from a pool of 6,000,000 or so.  I am not
    saying anything about how they died in first the sentence above.

    Lets use Yale as an example.  All he has told us is that his relatives
    died in the Holocaust.  He hasn't told us how they died (or if he did,
    I dont recall him doing so.)  If he told us that they all died by
    gassing in the extermination camps, then the pool we would work from
    would be about 3,000,000 Jews.  And the odds calculated would change.

    Tommy, you have had problems with much simpler math than this, so I
    don't really expect that you are going to follow all this logic.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jun 30 09:33:40 PDT 1996
Article: 46986 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: a curious Nizkor habit
Date: 25 Jun 1996 06:33 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
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In article <4qnr26$b2a@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4qla95$j9q@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>,
>>Richard Schultz (schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il) observes:
>>>	But I also notice that your [Matt Giwer's] degree is in physics
>>>	and thus far you have claimed expertise in law,...
>>Not just law, but criminal law, constitutional  law, international
>>law, and military law.
>>>	...chemistry, physiology, and history.
>>Let's not forget psychology, semantics, theology, and
>>English literature.
>>Mr. Giwer is a jack-of-all-trades, and master of none.
> 
>	Considering my years I feel the fields are rather minor accomplishment.
> 
>	What can you claim?  

    Sanity.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jun 30 09:33:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47083 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: ISRAEL - Numero Uno in the World
Date: 30 Jun 1996 07:18 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 103
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <30JUN199607183266@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31d495ba.7454311@news.pacificnet.net> <4r53bi$kl1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:47083 alt.conspiracy:63054

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com commented, but didn't add anything useful.
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>	In about the 16th letter to the editor accommodated to
>>Judeo/Zionist interest in just two weeks, the N.Y.Times as given
>>former Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban his go under "Look to the
>>Peace Scaffolding, Mr.Netanyahu", June 28, 1996.
> 
>>"To the Editor:
>>  Re your June 26 news aarticle on the meeting between Secretary of
>>State Warren Christopher and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of
>>Israel in Jeruselem:
>>	The agreements signed at Oslo and ratified in 1993 on the White
>>House lawn were the most far-reaching initiative taken an Israeli
>>Government in recent decades.
>>	If Isreal's relationships with Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinians
>>Authority, Morocco, Tunisia, Oman,Qatar, Mauritania and Turkey are
>>weakened, its security and prestige in the world community will be
>>seriously undermined.
>>	The U.S. invested a great deal of its influence in helping Israel
>>build new relationships in the Arab aand Muslim world. ....

    Tom, you omitted the rest of this paragraph.  What did it say?

>>	The previous Israeli government bequesthed a rich bounty to its
>>successors: a booming economy, a growth of gross national product that
>>most of the seven industrialized countries would envy ...

    Tom, you omitted the predicate of this sentence by which the sentence
    gets its meaning.

>>	Israel now has relations with 168 countries and is almost the
>>least , not the most, isolated nation in the international system."
>>	....                                 

    Tom, you omitted the last paragraphs where Eban's thesis comes
    together.

>>                                                      Abba Eban

>>	This theme of Israel on its way to being the new awesonme
>>economic power in the world is one that has been repeated quite often
>>in the last couple of years. We can see the usual practice of making

    Name one place (other than by anti-semites) it has been presented?
    I assert that in full context of this letter it is not even being
    presented here.

>>bold exaggerated claims where he says Israel should be the envy of the
>>top most industrialized nations in the world and it is the least
>>isolated nation in the international system.

    Are they exaggerated?  Eban offered a very specific statistic; is he
    wrong?  He does not say Israel is the least isolated nation.  He says 
    "almost the least isolated" and offers that Israel has diplomatic
    relations with 168 countries as evidence.  Is this exaggerated?  If
    neither statistic is exaggerated, why did you say his claims are?

[Giwer deleted]

>>	Inversely we could ask, if Israel is so awesome why does it need
>>to continue to take billions away from the massive needs of the U.S.?	

    He didn't say Israel was awesome.  He said its growth rate was doing
    very well.  This is a first derivative, it is rate of change not
    absolute size.

>>	And then this whole letter started out as a premise that might
>>look like it challenges "Bebe's" new order, but turns into a sales job
>>for Israel. 		

    No Tommy.  You completely misunderstand the thesis of the letter.  You
    don't even understand who the intended audience was.

    This is a letter to Bibi and his immediate followers telling them that
    the peace process has been a success so far and if they go back on the
    previously made commitments they risk Israel's economic status and its
    relationships with other nations.

    This is a letter that evidences Israelis are not of one mind on how to
    deal with Arabs.  This is a letter which evidences serious internal
    splits in Israeli affairs.  This is a rather subtle diplomatic
    statement that clearly was over your head. 

>>	"Bebe" is the endearing Teddy Bear nickname for Israel's new
>>Prime Minister Netanyahu, that has been used in numerous letters, and
>>unsigned editorials, in an attempt at having Americans think this
>>person and his stance is so lovable. 

    Funny.  He has had that nickname for a long time before anyone thought
    he might be Prime Minister.  Funny.  When "Jimmy" Carter said he wanted
    to be called "Jimmy" rather than "James" no one said it was to make
    American think he and his stances were so lovable.  Funny.  While David
    Letterman makes fun of the name Butros Butros Ghali, no one has claimed
    he uses it to make himself and his stances more lovable.  Frankly, you
    are just blowing hot air here.  There is no evidence to support your
    insult.

[Giwer jetsom deleted] 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jun 30 09:33:41 PDT 1996
Article: 47085 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: NIZKOR AND DENIERS
Date: 29 Jun 1996 10:00 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 51
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <29JUN199610002404@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31d285f8.56137406@news.zilker.net> <4r02ql$k4o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31d4662f.1383342@news.eden.com> <31d52894.3107150@news.eden.com>
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In article <31d52894.3107150@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31d4662f.1383342@news.eden.com>, mcurtis@eden.com (Mike Curtis) writes...

>>>...This country has had a chance in the past to
>>>kill in the Nazi fashion, why haven't we?
>>
>>    There are several million dead Native Americans who might disagree with
>>    your premise.
> 
>I was kind of waiting for this to come up. This is part of the history
>I work with, btw, only the 17th century aspect of it. As of now I'm
>working on the Pequot War and I'd say the European doesn't come of to
>well in this story. In order for your equating the Indian Conquest in
>America (I've always like Jenning's book title, _Invasion of
>America_), you'll have to find me government documents on the federal
>level that call for the extermination of the American Indian,  passed
>by Congress and then signed by the president. Europeans first settled
>here in the late 16th century and possibly earlier. Though we can find
>rhetoric that is much like that of the Nazis toward the Jews we will
>also find a large moderating element. I am the first to admit, and I
>have here on this board that I can do the same thing as Goldhagen does
>with Germany's antisemitsm with European disrespect for the Indian.
>This disrespect would turn into hate. This is much more complex
>because it is a vast culture war. Historically, I can't think of a
>metal-based civilization not conquering a stone based civilization.
>The American Indian Wars really do not equate to the holocaust very
>well even though there seems to be a need to make this equation work
>by some. I'm willing to discuss this and at least the subject is
>directly in the realm of my personal library. :-)

    I accept that there are significant historical differences between
    Americans killing Indians and Nazis killing Jews.  As this is your area
    of study I will accept your assertion that there is not an American
    document equivelent to the Wansee Protocol.

    However, what the American devistation of Native American culture (and
    Native Americans) does demonstrate is that Americans (of European
    heritage) were capable of viewing Indians as inferior and a barrier to
    greater American prosperity (manifest destiny?).  They were able to
    extend this to killing (or in the case of the vast majority of
    Americans, silently standing by) immense numbers of the Native American
    community.

    [I acknowledge in these assertions that this is not my area of study
    and my awareness of facts is vague and general.]

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jun 30 09:33:42 PDT 1996
Article: 47089 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: 30 Jun 1996 07:36 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 74
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <30JUN199607365001@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4qvn12$2a1e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4r461o$61f@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <29JUN199618380247@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4r5c5v$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4r5c5v$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4r461o$61f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes...
>>>In article <4qvn12$2a1e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
>>>McFee) writes:
>>> 
>>>>And I will add, for the 5th time, and I will note that Giwer has *never*
>>>>denied it, even back where he had the courage to respond to my posts
>>>other
>>>>than by stupid sigs, that the so-called harassment of Giwer's family and
>>>>son, was a concoction on *his* part.  In other words, he lied through his
>>>>teeth.  (Oh yes--I still have the proof.)
>>> 
>>>Sorry to disappoint you Gord, but I have received e-mails from individuals
>>>other than Giwer confirming that his son was harrassed by Marduk.  Since I
>>>keep the source and verbatim content of e-mails private, I cannot say
>>>more.
> 
>>    1. Did we ever figure out who Marduk is?
> 
>	You in particular encouraged the holohugging pig.  

    Provide the post, please.

>>    2. Did you notice that it was *one* letter than Giwer Jr. received
>>    (assuming it was not forged in house as has been suggested but no
>>    evidence has been presented for) and that every poster in this
>>    newsgroup sans Giwer who commented on the mailing immediately denounced
>>    it.
> 
>	Who said "ONE" and how did you know that?  I never posted that.  It is
>very curious that you would claim knowledge of details that I did not
>post.  May I ask how you know these details?  

    OK, I admit it.  I'm Gord McFee...

>	Of course I can not ask that question.  It is improper or some such.  
> 
>>    So, if you consider one letter to Giwer Jr. to be harassment, 
> 
>	Just how did you know there was only one without being a participant in
>it?  What is your point in making this all up?  BTW:  As we all know he
>is not a Jr.  So why do you make this up?

    Matt Giwer the father
    Matt Giwer the son

    It is a reasonable shorthand to call him Junior.  I have no idea what
    either's middle names are (nor do I really care.)  

>then
>>    maybe he was harassed.  If you agree with Giwer's assertion that that
>>    letter stains all of the "holohuggers" in this newsgroup then you would
>>    be as looney as he is.
> 
>	Someone just might be suspicious with your knowledge of what was never
>posted but then that would be antisemitic or some such, would it not?  

    Evidence that "he" is looney.  So Ehrlich, what do you think?

>>    I suspect that you are not looney and are open to reason.
> 
>	I know your intimate knowledge of the exact events makes you complicite
>in it.  

    Giwer went this route with McFee once.  All it did was make Giwer look
    stupid.  One has to wonder why he is going this route again...

    /re-enter killfile mode  {sheesh}

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun Jun 30 15:33:52 PDT 1996
Article: 47191 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!news.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: *Ordinary Canadians*
Date: 30 Jun 1996 12:55 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 81
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <30JUN199612551408@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4qvn12$2a1e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4r461o$61f@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <29JUN199618380247@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <30JUN199607365001@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <30JUN199607365001@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes...
>In article <4r5c5v$1v@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com writes...
>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:
>> 
>>>In article <4r461o$61f@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes...
>>>>In article <4qvn12$2a1e@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord
>>>>McFee) writes:
>>>> 
>>>>>And I will add, for the 5th time, and I will note that Giwer has *never*
>>>>>denied it, even back where he had the courage to respond to my posts
>>>>other
>>>>>than by stupid sigs, that the so-called harassment of Giwer's family and
>>>>>son, was a concoction on *his* part.  In other words, he lied through his
>>>>>teeth.  (Oh yes--I still have the proof.)
>>>> 
>>>>Sorry to disappoint you Gord, but I have received e-mails from individuals
>>>>other than Giwer confirming that his son was harrassed by Marduk.  Since I
>>>>keep the source and verbatim content of e-mails private, I cannot say
>>>>more.
>> 
>>>    1. Did we ever figure out who Marduk is?
>> 
>>	You in particular encouraged the holohugging pig.  
> 
>    Provide the post, please.

    As Jamie pointed out, Giwer rarely provides evidence.  While the burdon
    of proof is on him in this case, here is some evidence in my defense. 
    It is from the URL:

 	"http://xp1.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=10448800&
 	server=dnserver.db96q1&CONTEXT=836161631.4257&hitnum=278"

    {begin insert}

 Subject:      Re: M. GIWER: WIFE KILLER?
 From:         mgiwer@combase.com (Matt Giwer)
 Date:         1996/03/24
 Message-Id:   <4j2a06$3dj@wi.combase.com>
 References:   <4hqamd$6fo@wi.combase.com>
 <4icpue$2bq@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
 <16MAR96.05813090.0027@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA> <4isti6$spf@news.nyu.edu>
 <22MAR199623212439@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
 Organization: images incarnate
 Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

 dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:

 >In article <4isti6$spf@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt)
 writes...
 >>: ink.com>
 >>Distribution: 
 >> 
 >>marduk (marduk@idirect.com) wrote:
 >>: In article <4iiuca$90h@wi.combase.com>, mgiwer@combase.com says...
 >>: >
 >>: >        It has been a long time and I no longer have the citation but
 it was
 >>: >one of those things my deceased second wife and I talked about as she
 >>: >was an EPA employee at the time.  
 >> 
 >>: TWO wives??? Both dead?? Seems to me we can start a new newsgroup: 
 >>: Alt.Giwer.Deadly Effect on Women.
 >>: Hmmm...perhaps it is the slug-like secretions of hate....
 >> 
 >>What do you gain by this (and by the hate mail you sent me), other than 
 >>making yourself feel big?  This is juvenile and tasteless.

 >    I agree.  And Murduk sent me mail too.  Busy guy.

         When you have nothing better to do, flood ping his provider.

    {end insert}

    This doesn't have to do with his son; it was Marduk harassment
    pertaining to his wives.  Looks like both Jeremy and I called it
    "juvenile and tasteless."  Looks like I did little to encourage the
    behavior here.  Looks like Giwer - again - owes me an apology.  I
    suspect, however, instead of an apology I will get killfile insults and
    a repost from Profiles in Courage.  That Giwer, what a guy.




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