From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May  5 00:26:10 PDT 1996
Article: 34835 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the gang of six
Date: 1 May 1996 18:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 28
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References: <4l177k$hs5@wi.combase.com> <4lolvn$7ck@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <4m6ib0$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4m6ib0$2o5@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
>>## Liar. You were presented with a document that explicitly 
>>## states that Jews considered "unfit for work" will be killed 
>>## with poison gas. 
> 
>># I was given the Wannsee Protocol. 
> 
>>I'm talking about the Wetzel-Lohse letter.
> 
>	And I am talking about what I was given as evidence.

    No, Giwer.  Your responsibility does not end with evidence handed to
    you on a silver platter in this conference.  Your responsibility
    extends to all of the evidence that exists.  If you offer an
    alternative hypothesis here, it must be the best explanation of the
    entire historical record, not merely the subset of the historical
    record recently posted to a.r.

    Do you undertand what an alternative hypothesis is?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May  5 01:11:30 PDT 1996
Article: 34849 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: 1 May 1996 19:04 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <1MAY199619045839@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31861a38.187019@news.pacificnet.net> <4m6mu6$qku@news.nyu.edu>
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In article <4m6mu6$qku@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
>: 	
>: 	The Holocaust story is one that is mostly supported by
>: "eyewitness" accounts of what they saw.
> 
>: 	UFO stories are largely based on "eyewitness" accounts of what
>: they saw.

>Sure is.  You've once again presented a post without a single bit of 
>evidence.  You just love declaring victory don't you?  You just hate 
>having to try and earn it first, so you just keep declaring it over and 
>over agin. 	

    Well, Tommy, you made your "the Holocaust is like the UFOs" claim and
    six or so people have rebutted your arguments.  You haven't responded.

    So, what are you going to do?  Wait three months and then post the
    original all over again?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
             Quoth the Mor*n: "The end justifies the means!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon May  6 11:18:37 PDT 1996
Article: 35005 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Date: 4 May 1996 13:26 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 39
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4MAY199613260044@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m0jq1$2t1@boris.eden.com> <4m7230$kpr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> 
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) writes...
>(Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>>>In article <4mcadj$16b@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>>>(Matt Giwer) wrote:

>>>>>:      Remember that was a stated purpose of Nizkor.  Who was it who
>>>>>: said, Jews never forget?  
>>>>
>>>>>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?  
>>>>
>>>>>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.
>>>>
>>>>        If your news feed is failing complain to your provider.
>>
>>>You are evading, Giwer.
>>
>>>Where, exactly, has Ken McVay or anyone connected with Nizkor stated that
>>>it is a purpose of Nizkor to get Les Griswold fired from his job?
>>
>>>_You_ made the claim, Giwer. Do you have the guts to either back it up or
>>>admit that you were lying?
>>
>>        If you have not read it, complain to your provider about your
>>news feed.  Is that clear enough?
> 
>You are _still_ evading, Giwer. Why does this surprise no one? Evasion is
>a prime tactic of the racists on Usenet.
> 
>Provide the article reference, Giwer. Your inability to do so will
>demonstrate the falseness of your claim.

    Your post did not make it to my server either, Giwer.  Post the article
    ID and so that I can give my sys admin adequate details to act on the
    error.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue May  7 05:09:40 PDT 1996
Article: 35114 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: New Jewish Propaganda Website
Date: 2 May 1996 13:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 16
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2MAY199613100435@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3186AA20.7260@compusmart.ab.ca> <4m9rr2$83c@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4m9rr2$83c@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>William Grosvenor  wrote:
> 
>>The new Jewish propaganda website is at:
>>http://www.jewishpost.com/jewishpost/holocaust/
> 
>>Baconlovers invited,naturally.
> 
>	Muslims are the only ones who keep Kosher these days.

    TROLL ALERT: Giwer knows full well that many conservative and orthodox
    Jews keep kosher, but is interested in stirring up a fight.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Tue May  7 05:09:41 PDT 1996
Article: 35120 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: The word "anti-Semitic" (theorem)
Date: 2 May 1996 13:23 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2MAY199613231698@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4ls29j$3t6@newsource.ihug.co.nz> <31836d23.6796639@news.pacificnet.net> <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net> <4m9vji$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:27864 alt.revisionism:35120 soc.culture.jewish:48069

In article <4m9vji$bac@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31861a60.226675@news.pacificnet.net>,
>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) whines:
> 
>>	Can a true statement be "anti-Semitic"?
> 
>>Yes, it can.
> 
>	Enough said.

    Yes.  That's an example.  Would you to go for two?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:40 PDT 1996
Article: 35174 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented"
Date: 2 May 1996 16:09 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 42
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2MAY199616092513@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4mallc$19u@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten  writes...
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>>hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
> 
>>>Laura Finsten  wrote:
> 
>>>	As I said, you really don't understand scholarship.
> 
>>>In article <4lu8j2$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
> 
>>>	But I do.
> 
>>>In that case, Mr. Giwer is merely intellectually dishonest!
> 
>>	Scholarship are those academic endevours which do not require
>>analytic thought.  History, art and literature are no different
>>in that regard.  
> 
>>	Historians are the kind of folks who would debate forever the
>>truth or falsity of the surviving details of an event in history.
>>An aerchaeologist would go take a look.  
> 
>Actually, Mr. Giwer, my comment stands.  The term "scholarship"
>is used broadly in university settings to describe the process
>of research in its entirety, from the conception of a research
>problem, through the collection of information (historical
>documents, experimentation, archaeological site survey or
>excavation, as just a couple of examples), the *analysis* of
>the resulting data, and its interpretation.
> 
>And if you think archaeologists don't debate, at times very
>heatedly, the significance of what they "look at" and its
>broader interpretative meaning, you're merely blowing more
>hot air.  I'd be happy to provide you with some references
>about "scholarly debates" in archaeology if you are interested.

    Or he could just go read some Stephen Jay Gould.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:41 PDT 1996
Article: 35190 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Antichrist Identity
Date: 2 May 1996 16:16 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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>In <4m8kl5$ml9@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>wrote:
> 
>>Indeed, there were a lot of Jewish Bolsheviks, and a lot of Communist
>>functionaries who were Jewish.  This is just a fact.  If someone perceives
>>it as slander, that is not my problem.  It does, however, explain how the
>>(totally erroneous) conflation of Bolshevism and Judaism could have taken
>>place.

    This is, as you may know being that you are somewhat of a historian, an
    oversimplification of the issue.  The Russian Jews who were attracted
    to Bolshevism were, in general, less religious and traditional than the
    Jews who were not.  There was a heated schizm within the Jewish
    community over this point.  One must combine the Jews who were
    Bolsheviks and the Jews who were traditional small village religious
    Jews (personified in the late 20th century by the villagers in Fiddler
    on the Roof) in order to conflate Bolshevism and Judaism.  While many
    of the antisemites who use Jewish ties to communism to fan their flames
    either don't realize this or don't care, a good historian should draw
    the distinction.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:41 PDT 1996
Article: 35192 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: 2 May 1996 16:21 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 54
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2MAY199616213225@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <199604201924.MAA05124@rio.com> <3178E333.666E@kaiwan.com>  <4m9gg3$317@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4m9gg3$317@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4m0r6a$pc5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>In article <3178E333.666E@kaiwan.com>, ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> The only photo of a so-called gas chamber at Dachau that has been made 
>>>>> publically available is  actually a photo of a delousing chamber, which is a 
>>>>> gas chamber, but not a homicidal gas chamber. 
>>> 
>>>>Mr. Raven, if "Baracke X," the gas chamber and crematorium that was built
>>>>in 1942, was a delousing facility, why then was the gas chamber
>>>>camouflaged as shower room? 
>>> 
>>>	Upon what basis do you say camouflaged?  That copper pipes were
>>>missing?
>>> 
>>>>> Your account is typical of many GIs who heard rumors of how terrible the 
>>>>> Germans were, and upon returning home claimed to be eyewitnesses to all kinds 
>>>>> of things that simply were not there.
>>> 
>>>>And your infantile denial, Mr. Raven, is typical of the Nazi apologia so
>>>>often demonstrated by Holocaust deniers. 
>>> 
>>>	So you agree with Ferree that he did in fact participate in the
>>>liberation of a camp that did in fact have a gas chamber?
>>> 
>>>	You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while just
>>>the other day someone said there was never any such claim.
> 
>>    That would have been me.  It looks like I was in error.
>>    I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
>>    while the camps within Germany proper were work camps.  I did not
>>    realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps.  I
>>    stand corrected.  Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.
> 
>	It is always my pleasure to do so but I must ask you, why would
>you only accept without question or verification when they make
>matters worse than what you previously believed?  Why are you not
>skeptical of this claim that is new to you?  

    I have not done what you accuse me of doing.  There is no information
    from my post just above to lead a reasonable person (with adequate
    reading comprehension) to draw such a conlusion.

    I did not state above why I came to realize that limited gassing took
    place within the Altreich work camps.  If you ask me, rather than
    simply assuming why, I will provide you with an answer.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:42 PDT 1996
Article: 35210 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: 2 May 1996 17:44 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 137
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2MAY199617445822@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3178e1ef.245789@news.pacificnet.net> <4lprhi$frk@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <26APR199618514917@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4m9ojd$7c9@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>> 
>>>	Such a retort.  
> 
>>    Actually Matt, given the discussion that has taken place, no more of a
>>    retort is necessary.  You have asserted you know what an undergraduate
>>    Physics major know - and maybe you do.  But, though the ongoing
>>    discussion, it has become clear that you do not understand:
> 
>>    1. Research Methods as they are taught to first year gradute students,
>>    including:
>>    	a. The concept of reliability (and threats to it)
>>    	b. The concept of validity (and threats to it)
>>    	c. How to do experiments outside of a physics lab setting
>>    	d. Research methods outside of basic methods used for physics
> 
>>    2. The relationship of the physical sciences to the social sciences and
>>    how physical science methodolgies translate to the social sciences,
>>    including:
>>    	a. How to apply concepts of reliability in the social sciences
>>    	b. How to apply concepts of validity in the social sciences
> 
>>    3. Any idea at all how historiography works.
> 
>	In what particular field might these be taught and how do you
>know?  

    Research methods are taught in all of the physical sciences, social
    sciences, and engineering disciplines.  Specific methods and even
    paradigm vary somewhat among the disciplines.

    I know because, as I posted previously, I have taken graduate methods
    coursework in about seven disciplines (I say "about" as the border
    lines across disciplines are sometimes blurred) and I spent
    considerable time research cross discipline methods for my dissertation
    work as that work bridged three fairly different research paradigms
    (none of which were hard sciences and each of which have people as
    stubborn and parochial as you are).

>	And why would you put something first year grad students are
>taught up against 20+ years of practical and succesful
>application of several of physical sciences.  

    I wouldn't necessarily.  But as I wrote above, your posts have not
    indicated any evidence that you have acquired these concepts or skills
    during your 20+ years of practical and successful application of
    several of the physical sciences.  I don't doubt you know physics
    (well, there seem to be other people here who doubt your skills at the
    physical sciences, but I claim insufficient knowledge in the physical
    sciences to have an opinion one way or another), but I do doubt that
    you have been able to take off blinders to see how those science
    principals are applied in other non-physical science disciplines.

>	I am in the position of finding myself being lectured to about
>academics in the face of actually having gone out there and done
>it.  Do you have the slightest idea why I view this lecture as
>comedy of the absurd?  

    Yes I do.  But you are wrong.  (Remember, I deal with NRaD scientists
    in my work.  I have a sense of what they are like) :>

>>    It has become clear that you deal with the entire world using the
>>    limited scope of knowledge you have without considering that there is a
>>    larger sphere of knowledge out there which may explain things in ways
>>    you might not understand.

>>    It has become clear that when anyone presents information based on
>>    paradigm, theories, constructs, or information outside of your own
>>    frame of knowledge you go into denial and contort the most fascinating
>>    schemes to try to make your own frame work.
> 
>	All of the nonscientific fields have resulted in absolutely zero
>progress.  We are "failing to communicate" based upon the results
>of the real sciences.  

    Your first sentence is so wrong it is absurd.  It's gotta be a troll. 
    I don't understand what you are getting at in the second sentence.  
    I can't find the quoted phrase above to find context.

>	Newton was able to deflect claims of his greatness by saying that
>he stood upon the shoulders of giants.  No "scholar" can make
>such a claim.  

    This is incorrect.  There are scholars in every field -- including
    physical science scholars -- to incrimentally improve the work of their
    forebearers.  Science, in this sense, is done in the soft disciplines
    exactly like it is done in the hard disciplines.  That fact that you do
    not know this - and refuse to accept it when it is stated to you by
    social scientists - and refuse to simply see that there are continual
    gains in the social sciences (let alone even consider the social
    sciences to be science) speaks volumes.

>	All of the non-science areas are no different than athletes.  All
>of their accomplishments are based upon their individual
>abilities and no success can build upon them.  

    This also is absurd.  It is so absurd I assume it to be a troll.  You
    can't possibly believe something this stupid.

>	A scientist can teach other to be scientists.  Generations of
>them can raise us from the dark ages to space flight.  Beowulf is
>stull up there among the great works.  Some still consider Plato
>(the other guy, drawing a blank) the peak of philosophy or at

    Socrates

>least that his ideas are still worth considering.  Aristotle's
>science was discarded to begin progress in science.   Cave
>painting from the Ice Age are considered great works of art.  

    Interesting.  Beowulf, and cave art are both humanities.  Humanities
    have evolved, but I agree that they are not incrimental as the sciences
    (social and physical) are.  The humanities are not soft sciences.  Math
    - which you told Danny Keren was not a science - most certainly has
    shown growth since the Greeks.  The social sciences did not, for the
    most part, exist as science disciplines before the 19th and 20th
    centuries (modern economics traces it's roots to about 1776.)  They
    have grown immensely over the past century.

>	If you discard the idea of progress, you may have a point.
> 
>>    It has become clear that when this fails (and it often does on this
>>    newsgroup) that you resort to changing the subject, and engaging in
>>    ridicule.
> 
>>    Therefore, at this point "shut your filthy trap" is a perfectly
>>    reasonable response to you.
>	
>	Get back to me when you have grown up.

    I could say the same thing to you...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:43 PDT 1996
Article: 35254 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Ultimate Extermination System
Date: 2 May 1996 19:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 67
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2MAY199619421163@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <317e33e1.333120@news.pacificnet.net> <317fc715.20101506@news.pacificnet.net> <4lr5he$qql@hackberry.zilker.net> <4m9j39$o87@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4m9j39$o87@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4ls76k$ats@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>	It is obvious the technology mentioned was well within the
>>>>>capability of the Germans, at that time in history.
>>>>> 
>>>>>	What with the new Goldhagen book drawing up to 500,000 Germans
>>>>>into being directly involved, we should suppose the Germans had
>>>>>inquired about the nation for ideas on the best way to exterminate the
>>>>>Jews.
>>> 
>>>>Nope. Didn't happen. In fact, there was opposition to some of what was
>>>>going on. Especially so to German citizens. This is why the Nazis were
>>>>forced to move their killing sites either far underground or out of
>>>>country. I suggest that the uninformed, such as you, Mr. Moran, ought
>>>>to read a book called *Nazi Doctors* by Lipton for information about
>>>>some of this opposition.
>>> 
>>>	As the truth has changed from gas chambers all over Germany to
>>>only outside of Germany just what German citizens would have been
>>>of concern?  Are you talking about tourists?  What does this
>>>"underground" mean much less "far underground"?  
> 
>>    GIWER SWITCH AND BAIT ALERT: Giwer asserts that the truth has changed,
>>    when in fact he is just making up lies.  It has never been asserted
>>    that there were "gas chambers all over Germany."  Giwer may respond to
>>    this, but the reader will notice that he WILL NOT respond to this with
>>    a citation demonstrating that this was once thought to be true.  he
>>    won't respond this way as he has no citations demonstrating such.
> 
>	Was it not you who just changed your story back to all over
>Germany?  

    Here is the exchange (from <4m0r6a$pc5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>). 
    Giwer said to another poster:

 Matty> You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while
 Matty> just the other day someone said there was never any such claim.

    I responded:

 Danny> That would have been me.  It looks like I was in error.
 Danny> I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
 Danny> while the camps within Germany proper were work camps.  I did not
 Danny> realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps. I
 Danny> stand corrected.  Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.

    Note that in the original Giwer did not say "all over Germany" Giwer
    merely said "in Germany" (meaning more than zero).  Note that in my
    response I said "limited gassing toik place within those work camps."

    Therefore it was not me who changed my story.  It was Giwer who has
    made either sloppy or dishonest presentation of the previous exchange.

    And I note, to follow up on my Giwer prediction above, that Giwer in
    fact did not follow up with a citation, he merely followed up with an
    insinuating question.  I responded with the actual text and citation of
    the previous posts which demonstrates he was wrong.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:43 PDT 1996
Article: 35255 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Date: 2 May 1996 19:49 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
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References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m0jq1$2t1@boris.eden.com> <4m7230$kpr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu>
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In article <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
> 
>: >An effort to lose me my job, perhaps?
> 
>: 	Remember that was a stated purpose of Nizkor.  Who was it who
>: said, Jews never forget?  
> 
>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?  
> 
>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.

    I prefer...

    "Old Man Troller, that Old Man Troller
    He just keeps posting, He just keeps posting along."

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:44 PDT 1996
Article: 35439 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!news.cps.udayton.edu!news.conterra.com!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!CS.Arizona.EDU!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews supporting Palestine for Palestinians
Date: 4 May 1996 09:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4MAY199609222617@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4mciej$28g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4me127$qmp@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4me127$qmp@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
> 
>: Hope JBrolin has a garlic necklace to keep the Jooish Vampires away.
> 
>Even better;  he has "j*wsbriefs" -- which must make him feel truly
>important.

    Funny, my undershorts are agnostic.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:45 PDT 1996
Article: 35471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!gatech!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Nizkor Project: Holocaust educational resource list
Date: 2 May 1996 06:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2MAY199606324916@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4m7gd7$n7q@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4m97uo$kbr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4m97uo$kbr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
>>Archive/File: /pub/bibliographies/biblio.INDEX
>>Last-modified: 1995/09/10
> 
>>I have assembled Holocaust bibliographic reference files, which are
>>available to anyone requesting them.  They contain well over 2500
>>entries, and will prove invaluable for anyone interested in learning
>>more about the collective events referred to as the Holocaust.
> 
>	What will be truly valuable is if you ever get a real search
>engine on the site instead of that "guess the filename" thing you
>have now.  
> 
>	If there is any interest in research it will be by topic rather
>than by file name.  That is why books have indexes as you know.  

    Well, as you know, its all volunteer labor and there is a lot to be
    done.  But if you care to put in a donation or you care to help out
    with some coding...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                   Quoth the Raven: "No, I thought not."


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:45 PDT 1996
Article: 35508 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A suggestion for Matt Giwer
Date: 8 May 1996 15:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8MAY199615590142@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4mmvsd$7d4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>In article <4lurpu$np7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	Been there, done that and it is not clear that a religious
>>>organization can give out tax receipts for a site [Nizkor] involving a
>>>secular event.  
> 
>>    If you are so concerned with this, rather than flapping your keyboard
>>why do you not contact the relevant authorities and alert them to this
>>possible violation of the law?  If they act to change the situation, then
>>they will thank you.  If they do not act, then it will become clear that a
>>religious organization can do this.
>	
>	This area gets about 10% of it annual income from the silver
>beavers.  I would suggest it is up to them to deal with the
>problem.  

    So, basically, your whimper is worse than your bite.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                            "What a geezer."


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:46 PDT 1996
Article: 35514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 8 May 1996 14:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <318f4e4c.3852988@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same
>>general path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and
>>cremation, and also the acitivities of the Einsatzgruppens, the
>>preceding "anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable
>>treatment to establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding
>>1939. After all, if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put
>>to death, they have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena
>>to have been killed.
>>       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
>>they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
>>Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
>>span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
>>a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
>>(estimated)". In this table he has three verticle columns:
> 
>>   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
>>   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
>>   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
>>   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
>>   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
>>   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
>>   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
>>   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
>>   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
>>"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"
> 
>>	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
>>European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
>>5,200,000 in just 210 years.
> 
>	Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>total European population over the same period of time.

    Great!  Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
    lack of knowledge in.  There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
    a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
    population as a whole.  Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
    and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.

    I don't know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
    that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
    come up with.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:47 PDT 1996
Article: 35527 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen's thesis (was Re: Alternate Introductory Sys
Date: 8 May 1996 18:32 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8MAY199618324422@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <4mb369$gnp@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4moft1$8im@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4moft1$8im@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>    I fall somewhere between the two of you on these points.  While cause
>>    and effect research risks over simplifying complex systemic antecedents
>>    to historical events, it seems to me that building models showing
>>    connectivity among events is useful.  It seems that it ought to be
>>    possible to construct structured linear relationship (ie lisrel etc.)
>>    models to show potenial causal relationships.
> 
>>    However, I agree that "responsibility" is a value laden term that does
>>    little towards adding to historical understanding.  And, in fact,
>>    interjection of such values can make it difficult to objectively study
>>    historical issues.  I am convinced, for example, that it will not be
>>    possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can
>>    get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man. 
>>    Those values (be they right or wrong) are too much of a filter keeping
>>    us from really understanding what happened.
> 
>	Do you happen to own a baseball team?

    Interesting question, troll.  I happened to grow up a Cincinnati Reds
    fan.  I can still name the entire line-up for most of the teams they
    fielded in the 70s.

    I boycotted baseball in '93 because of Marge Schott.  Everytime I think
    about maybe paying attention again, she goes and says something else
    stupid.

    What I am saying above has absolutely nothing to do with the types of
    things she says.  And, as you haven't put forward any arguments
    disagreeing with me, I will assume you are simply engaging in idiotic
    trolling once again.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 07:10:47 PDT 1996
Article: 35529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is "Jew baiting"?
Date: 8 May 1996 18:48 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8MAY199618480713@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3190aa2f.3339494@news.pacificnet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <3190aa2f.3339494@news.pacificnet.net>,  tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) asks "What is 'Jew baiting'?"

    Here is one example:

Message-ID: <3190a437.1811371@news.pacificnet.net> Tommy wrote: 
[Definition of] "Semitism" "1. Semitic characteristics, esp. the ways,
ideas, influence, etc. of the Jewish people."

Like killing little children, teaching "chutzpah" (The art of being
insulting), conspiring for their personal goals and the racist connection. 

    Yes, that would be one good example.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
         It's like claiming menorahs are ruled to be lay...  
         It's like lying about visiting PA...  
         It's like repeating what you already say...
         Yes, isn't it moronic?"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:52 PDT 1996
Article: 35255 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Subject: Re: Four questions for Ken McVay, Overrated Bingo Caller
Followup-To: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads,can.politics
Date: 2 May 1996 19:49 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
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References: <4m0co9$qd9@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4m0jq1$2t1@boris.eden.com> <4m7230$kpr@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu>
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In article <4mas4s$c2s@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) wrote:
> 
>: >An effort to lose me my job, perhaps?
> 
>: 	Remember that was a stated purpose of Nizkor.  Who was it who
>: said, Jews never forget?  
> 
>Where is it a stated purpose ofNizkor to get Les Griswold fired?  
> 
>Troll, troll, troll, troll, life is but a dream.

    I prefer...

    "Old Man Troller, that Old Man Troller
    He just keeps posting, He just keeps posting along."

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:53 PDT 1996
Article: 35439 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!news.cps.udayton.edu!news.conterra.com!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!CS.Arizona.EDU!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jews supporting Palestine for Palestinians
Date: 4 May 1996 09:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4MAY199609222617@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4mciej$28g@newsbf02.news.aol.com>  <4me127$qmp@news.nyu.edu>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4me127$qmp@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
> 
>: Hope JBrolin has a garlic necklace to keep the Jooish Vampires away.
> 
>Even better;  he has "j*wsbriefs" -- which must make him feel truly
>important.

    Funny, my undershorts are agnostic.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:54 PDT 1996
Article: 35508 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!genmagic!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A suggestion for Matt Giwer
Date: 8 May 1996 15:59 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
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In article <4mmvsd$7d4@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>>In article <4lurpu$np7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>>Matt Giwer  wrote:
>>>	Been there, done that and it is not clear that a religious
>>>organization can give out tax receipts for a site [Nizkor] involving a
>>>secular event.  
> 
>>    If you are so concerned with this, rather than flapping your keyboard
>>why do you not contact the relevant authorities and alert them to this
>>possible violation of the law?  If they act to change the situation, then
>>they will thank you.  If they do not act, then it will become clear that a
>>religious organization can do this.
>	
>	This area gets about 10% of it annual income from the silver
>beavers.  I would suggest it is up to them to deal with the
>problem.  

    So, basically, your whimper is worse than your bite.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                            "What a geezer."


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:55 PDT 1996
Article: 35514 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 8 May 1996 14:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <318f4e4c.3852988@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>	Books out to sell the Holocaust story all follow the same
>>general path of topics. Naturally they go on about mass gassing and
>>cremation, and also the acitivities of the Einsatzgruppens, the
>>preceding "anti-Semitism" and such. They all also give considerable
>>treatment to establishing a sufficient Jewish population preceding
>>1939. After all, if they are trying to claim 6 million Jews were put
>>to death, they have to show that there were enough Jews in the arena
>>to have been killed.
>>       Of course fabricators can get themselves into problems when
>>they carry the accounts too far. Just focusing on one book, say Yehuda
>>Bauer's, "The History of the Holocaust", we can find in just a short
>>span, a number of problems. He includes in his version of establishing
>>a sufficient Jewish population "Table 2.1", "Jewish population
>>(estimated)". In this table he has three verticle columns:
> 
>>   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
>>   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
>>   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
>>   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
>>   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
>>   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
>>   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
>>   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
>>   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
>>"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"
> 
>>	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
>>European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
>>5,200,000 in just 210 years.
> 
>	Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>total European population over the same period of time.

    Great!  Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
    lack of knowledge in.  There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
    a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
    population as a whole.  Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
    and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.

    I don't know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
    that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
    come up with.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:56 PDT 1996
Article: 35529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is "Jew baiting"?
Date: 8 May 1996 18:48 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
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References: <3190aa2f.3339494@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3190aa2f.3339494@news.pacificnet.net>,  tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran) asks "What is 'Jew baiting'?"

    Here is one example:

Message-ID: <3190a437.1811371@news.pacificnet.net> Tommy wrote: 
[Definition of] "Semitism" "1. Semitic characteristics, esp. the ways,
ideas, influence, etc. of the Jewish people."

Like killing little children, teaching "chutzpah" (The art of being
insulting), conspiring for their personal goals and the racist connection. 

    Yes, that would be one good example.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
         It's like claiming menorahs are ruled to be lay...  
         It's like lying about visiting PA...  
         It's like repeating what you already say...
         Yes, isn't it moronic?"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:56 PDT 1996
Article: 35641 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!insync!news.io.com!arlut.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: 8 May 1996 17:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <8MAY199617100178@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <5MAY199618253347@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mjqoo$jdh@news.enter.net> <4mn39k$amc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4mn39k$amc@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
> 
>>>   dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes:
> 
>>>      I suspect an American Congregation could collect money for an American
>>>      tax exempt educational organization on the Holocaust and not get in
>>>      trouble with the IRS either.  What's your point?
> 
>>	Under U.S. law a 501(c)(3) entity is limited in how it disperses funds,  If it is 
>>to another organization, that organization must also be registered under 501 (c)(3).  If it 
>>is so registered, there is no limitation.
> 
>	Is Nizkor claiming to be a needy organization?  

    no.

>Can a charitable organization give tax deductions for
>contributions to my site?

    no. 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:57 PDT 1996
Article: 35648 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer and his Threats
Date: 9 May 1996 06:05 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
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In article <4ms0th$bj8$1@mhade.production.compuserve.com>, Cliff Swiger <76053.707@CompuServe.COM> writes...
>Mr. Giwer should be commended for his perservering of the truth. 
>I support him 100%. Those who

    Yo, Cliff.   Giwer said that 12 million people died, just not by
    gassing.  You support that 100%?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the Swiger: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35649 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: 9 May 1996 06:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9MAY199606084727@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31861a38.187019@news.pacificnet.net> <831298558snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4mljos$2er@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <831496303snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <831496303snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk writes...
>In article <4mljos$2er@bell.maths.tcd.ie> dbell@maths.tcd.ie "Derek Bell" writes:
> 
>> Alexander Baron  writes:
>> >A perfect analogy Mr Moran. In his book UFOs The Public Deceived, Philip
>> >Klass points out that at first the more outrageous stories of abductions -
>> >Adamski et al, were not believed, but in the 70s & 80s they have been
>> >given greater plausibility because UFOlogists have become more gullible.
>> 
>>         So when were UFO pilots tried and found guilty of abductions? There
>> is *significantly more* evidence for the Holocaust happening than UFO
>> abductions. Look to Nizkor for references.
> 
>I don't dispute that but in many cases the quality isn't much better.

    That's true.  Here's the formula bubby:

    UFOs       :  weak evidence
    Holocaust  :  weak evidence + strong evidence

    You simply choose to always focus on the many pieces of weak evidence
    and ignore the many pieces of strong evidence regarding the Holocaust.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:58 PDT 1996
Article: 35650 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Faith in the Holocaust leads to salvation
Date: 9 May 1996 06:14 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
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References: <3178e1ef.245789@news.pacificnet.net> <4lprhi$frk@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <26APR199618514917@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mqu8o$f19@news.nyu.edu>
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In article <4mqu8o$f19@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>: 
>: >I'm sorry, Mr. Giwer, I didn't realize you had 30 years of real life
>: >experience in the law.  Or in Chemistry.  Or in archaeology.  Or in
>: >anthropology.  Or in history.  Gee, what's your "life experience" in these
>: >again?
>: 
>: >Or do just claim that by the mere miracle of being alive, you became an
>: >expert in these things?
>: 
>: 	When you age enough to have it you will also have it.  I doubt I
>: will be alive to discuss what you have learned at that time.
> 
>No kidding?  When one ages, one automatically becomes an expert in all
>those things, whether they've had any actual experience or not?  And I'll
>become an automatic expert in chemsistry, and anthropology, just by
>living to be 50?  ? I don't have to study or anything?
> 
>What a fascinating fantasy world you live in.

    It's true.  My father is almost 70 and he developed an ability to read
    Ancient Greek, do differential equations, and perform delicate eye
    surgery as time went on.  Simply by aging.  Giwer has lots to look
    forward to.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:14:59 PDT 1996
Article: 35651 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: 9 May 1996 06:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 13
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9MAY199606195105@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4mqdda$apr@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote:
> 
>: Lshmctrfh,asnsh.

    "Lets See How Many Come To ..."

    Tommy is refighting WWII using junior high school pranks to do it.  Its
    pathetic, really.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the Moran: "IAARA"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Thu May  9 21:15:00 PDT 1996
Article: 35652 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: The idiocy of giwers
Date: 9 May 1996 06:21 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9MAY199606212569@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4j12kg$55b@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <4lhqkt$b4g@wi.co <4m3bgf$q6b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4mmrgl$gav@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:28104 alt.politics.nationalism.white:19433 alt.discrimination:46628 alt.revisionism:35652 alt.skinheads:22369

In article <4mmrgl$gav@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4mg72n$2mlm@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net wrote:
> 
>>>phone calls.  And he still thinks I work for IBM.  Poor frightened
>>>delusional old Giwer-troll.
> 
>>Moved over from Internet Direct, eh? 
> 
>	Fascinating that someone remembers the difference between direct
>and indirect despite the denials and changed messages posted
>here.
> 
>	But of course, someone will change your post and swear to it.

    Sue him Gord!  Even if you don't win, it will shut him up for awhile.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri May 10 06:52:47 PDT 1996
Article: 35741 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 9 May 1996 17:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 50
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <9MAY199617451266@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>Dr. Irving Moskowitz "says he is merely doing the '"natural thing for
>a Jew"'.
>	He is cited as an orthodix Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
>Holocaust. 
>	Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
>It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
>at it.

    You call it *fun* to ask someone to recount for you all of their dead
    relatives?

>	One hundred and twenty relatives? Ah yes, a "natural thing" to
>assert.

    Especially if it happened.

>	Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why "the
>natural thing" is to just blurt out a gross fabrication. 

    Well, I have never heard of the man so I can't assert I know what he
    said is true, but consider the following:

    As 90% of the Jews in Poland and other Eastern European countries were
    killed by the Nazi's, it makes sense that several of the survivors
    would have experienced losing 90% or so of their relatives.  I don't
    know anythign about Dr. Moskowitz's family, but lets consider my family
    (fairly traditional Eastern European family with some Jewish, some
    Russian Orthodox, some atheist, and a variety of other things mixed
    in).

    My mother's mother was one of eleven.  My mother's father was one of
    six.  My father's father was one of three.  My father's mother was one
    of two.  In all, I have 22 relatives from that generation.  Those 22
    produced about 58 offspring (there are enough people that I am not sure
    if I am missing someone without having a family tree in front of me). 
    Those 58 produced about 77 in my generation.  My generation, so far as
    the most current tree I have shows, have produced 41 offspring.  So,
    just going back to my grandparents I have come up with 198 people.  And
    that does not include inlaws!

    Had my family been all Jewish and been swept up by the Nazis somewhere
    in Eastern Europe, given that the Nazis destroyed 90% of the Jews, I
    can easily see how they might have killed 120 of my relatives.

    I guess I just don't see the humor in this that you see, Tommy.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri May 10 06:52:48 PDT 1996
Article: 35835 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rekindle the ovens, man
Date: 3 May 1996 06:47 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...

>>>>>	You also then agree there were gas chambers in Germany while just
>>>>>the other day someone said there was never any such claim.
>>> 
>>>>    That would have been me.  It looks like I was in error.
>>>>    I know that the extermination camps were located outside of Germany,
>>>>    while the camps within Germany proper were work camps.  I did not
>>>>    realize that limited gassing took place within those work camps.  I
>>>>    stand corrected.  Thank you for pointing out my error, Giwer.
>>> 
>>>	It is always my pleasure to do so but I must ask you, why would
>>>you only accept without question or verification when they make
>>>matters worse than what you previously believed?  Why are you not
>>>skeptical of this claim that is new to you?  
> 
>>    I have not done what you accuse me of doing.  There is no information
>>    from my post just above to lead a reasonable person (with adequate
>>    reading comprehension) to draw such a conlusion.
> 
>>    I did not state above why I came to realize that limited gassing took
>>    place within the Altreich work camps.  If you ask me, rather than
>>    simply assuming why, I will provide you with an answer.
> 
>	Feeble but an adequate enough denial that your fellow holohuggers
>will support you.

    Insulting, but adequate, admission that this conversation is over.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri May 10 12:34:48 PDT 1996
Article: 35846 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: To M. Giwer: Dad, I'm Converting
Date: 3 May 1996 07:02 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3MAY199607025938@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <4k1632$67l@news.nyu.edu> <4k2ba2$bmq@wi.combase.com> <4mc08h$1dke@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4mc08h$1dke@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
>jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) said:
> 
>>I knew as of April 16 that you were going to be booted from Combase. I
>>knew because Alex Kiwerski, their sysop, told me so in an e-mail response
>>to my request that you be warned about net abuse. I also know that
>>Kiwerski told Mr. McFee the same thing a few days later. In fact, I posted
>>to alt.revisionism that you were going to be booted from Combase when I
>>responded to your accusation that I was attempting to censor you. I posted
>>this information several days in advance of Mr. McFee.
> 
>>As this series of posts may be actionable, and as I may be deposed as a
>>witness, I will stop right here.
> 
>So *YOU* are Marduk!!  :-)

    Rats.  I thought *I* was Marduk.  That's no fair, Morris always gets to
    be Marduk...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri May 10 12:34:49 PDT 1996
Article: 35847 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Giwer finally wins an argument!
Date: 3 May 1996 07:11 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 12
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3MAY199607111768@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31750d1a.8183715@news.pacificnet.net> <3177851d.785152@news.pacificnet.net> <21APR199607522012@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4m8psh$9ct@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:

>>Tough.  You are still a very odd old man.
>	What would age matter?

    You are correct, sir!  He merely should have said, "You are still a
    very odd man."

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri May 10 18:55:30 PDT 1996
Article: 35981 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: 10 May 1996 06:02 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10MAY199606021735@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4mp9vo$lrj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <31917c10.34601794@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4msqbh$c3n@netaxs.com> <4mucec$l9d@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:48531 alt.revisionism:35981

In article <4mucec$l9d@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes...
>  Is this how Jews operate? Harrass people with email which the
>recipient is literally incapable of replying to, and then whine about
>all the alleged "anti-semitism" in the world?
>  I think you now realize that your nasty, immature actions and abuse
>of the email system -- so antithetical to the functioning of the
>Internet -- have been exposed and people are repulsed by them. 

    Actually, he explained that all he did was send you courtesy copies of
    posts he made to newsgroups replying to your posts.  Quite reasonable,
    actually.

    I doubt anyone out here is repulsed by that behavior.  I suspect
    reaction out here is more along the lines of amusement that you had no
    understanding of what he was doing.

>  And by you. Grow up or go away, Alpert. You are an embarrassment to
>the great Jewish people everywhere.

    Why would Mr. Alpert's religion have anything at all to do with whether
    he has good or bad email etiquitte?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Fri May 10 18:55:30 PDT 1996
Article: 35987 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: 10 May 1996 06:15 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 47
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10MAY199606152385@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3173ac60.4634571@news.pacificnet.net> <3177a686.9338073@news.pacificnet.net> <31794635.1667858@news.srv.ualberta.ca> <4mrkn4$8k0@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4mrkn4$8k0@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
> 
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: 
>>: 	Because in the US only the IRS can establish who and for what
>>: purposes such tax receipts can be granted. 
> 
>>Congratulations, Mr. GIwer!  You have succesfully removed from Congress
>>its power to determine taxation!  Let's see, you've taken away the
>>Congrssional War Power, now the tax power, -- and given both to the
>>Executive Branch!  What's next -- the Executive exclusive power to
>>determine who can immigrate to this country?
> 
>	Do you truly confuse that with an intelligent response?  

    I thought it was a cute and accurate response.  Why, are you now
    asserting you have knowledge in civics that we all are lacking? 
    Sheesh, Mr. Giwer, where DID you get all this knowledge?

>	But in fact you forgot to give similar power to the President who
>signs the bills into law.  Even in stupidity you fail.

    No.  The power of taxation is classicly assigned to the legislative
    branch, not the executive branch.  While the President traditionally
    presents a budget to Congress and the President Constitutionally signs
    budget bills, the President cannot enact taxation powers on his own. 
    Congress, through veto overrides, CAN enact taxation legislation
    without the cooperation of the President.

    In either case, your initial response was wrong as the IRS simply
    carries out tax laws - it does not create them.

    Mr. Giwer, I am amazed at how often you can put your foot in your
    mouth.  I have never in all my years on conferencing systems seen
    anyone do so more regularly than you.
>-------------------
>alt.revisionism
> 
>6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote.
> 
>   What kind of truth is it that needs protection?
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 07:55:55 PDT 1996
Article: 36078 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 10 May 1996 23:02 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 55
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10MAY199623024206@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net> <9MAY199617451266@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mullb$pov@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4mvpsf$au5@news.nyu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4mvpsf$au5@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>: 
>: >In article <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>: >>Dr. Irving Moskowitz "says he is merely doing the '"natural thing for
>: >>a Jew"'.
>: >>	He is cited as an orthodix Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
>: >>Holocaust. 
>: >>	Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
>: >>It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
>: >>at it.
>: 
>: >    You call it *fun* to ask someone to recount for you all of their dead
>: >    relatives?

    Looks like Matt Giwer considers this *fun* also...

>: >>	One hundred and twenty relatives? Ah yes, a "natural thing" to
>: >>assert.
>: 
>: >    Especially if it happened.
>: 
>: >>	Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why "the
>: >>natural thing" is to just blurt out a gross fabrication. 
>: 
>: >    Well, I have never heard of the man so I can't assert I know what he
>: >    said is true, but consider the following:
>: 
>: >    As 90% of the Jews in Poland and other Eastern European countries were
>: >    killed by the Nazi's, it makes sense that several of the survivors
>: >    would have experienced losing 90% or so of their relatives.  
>: 
>: 	Can you name 132 (120 + 12 more or less)ancestral relatives and
>: the manner in which they died?  That is without even going into
>: other requirements for this to be true.

    If I had 132 relatives killed over a six year period during one macro
    act of genocide, I certainly could.  Asshole.

    As Mr. Green wrote, "Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller
    whose only interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound
    superficially plausible, he has lied about what has been said in
    exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to document claims,
    pretended not to see posts which contain documented refutation of his
    claims (even when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual
    libel, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
    intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
    taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
    evidence of this, please refer to:
    URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt"

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 07:55:56 PDT 1996
Article: 36079 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 10 May 1996 23:14 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 36
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10MAY199623140698@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31934c3c.6159344@news.pacificnet.net> <4n0sjj$9rk@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4n0sjj$9rk@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...
>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>  
>>  >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>  >
>>  >	The world wide Jewish population today has been put at 13, 16
>>  >or 20 million, take your pick. 
>>  >	For the following ciphering lets give the doctor and any
>>  >defenders some accomodation to keep the finale from being any more
>>  >absurd than if we used any of the other numbers.
>>  >	Lets say the figure was 10,000,000.
>>  >	Lets just take 100,000 of this 10 million figure, or 1%. Lets
>>  >say each one had 120 relatives lost in the Holocaust, as the doctor
>>  >claims he had. This would come out to 12,000,000. One percent of 10
>>  >million, times 120 relatives = yup, 12,000,000. 
>>  
>>  	Mr.Edeiken tells the group he lost 136 relatives in the
>>  Holocaust.
>>  	Going by the above ciphering this would come out to
>>  13,600,000. Just considering 1%. Imagine.
> 
>	Actually my family tree shows 160 who were murdered by your 
>buddies but that includes relatives by marriage.  And, of course, your 
>mathmatical ineptitude assumes that each Jew is related to 120 different 
>victims.  That is nonsense.  It is about the kind of reasoning we have come to 
>expect from a lying bigot who tells us that the KKKK is part of a "jewish 
>conspiracy."

    Yale, I think I can help here.

    	Tommy, just imagine that every Jew is a tree...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
            Quoth the Moron: "You can't plant Jews in the desert!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 07:55:57 PDT 1996
Article: 36083 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 10 May 1996 23:21 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 27
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10MAY199623213123@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3193499a.5485524@news.pacificnet.net> <4n0sr6$9rk@news.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4n0sr6$9rk@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) writes...
>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:
>>  
>>  	Perhaps you could give a detailed account of how you have
>>  arrived at your claim that you lost 136 relitives in the Holocaust.
>>  
>	Sure.  I looked at my family tree and counted.  The actaul total was 160 
>(including relatives by marraige).

    Well, Tommy, I didn't lose too many relatives in the Holocaust.  I will
    ask my mother (a rather accomplished genealogist) for a count tomorrow. 
    I did, though, lose many relatives in the Russian pogroms.  I is
    striking to look at my family tree and see how many branches simply end
    early in this century.  I suspect I lost 100 relatives to the Russians. 
    And even though it happened decades before I was born, it is
    interesting how the scars are carried by the family through the years.

    You know, Tommy, this is one reason why you get so much hate thrown
    back at you in the responses to you.  While guess and joke and lie when
    you talk about the Holocaust, it is very real to many people here who
    have lost up to literally hundreds of relatives each in it.  That
    joking hits home as much as it would hit you if a group of people raped
    your mother and then denied it and laughed about it afterwards.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 07:55:58 PDT 1996
Article: 36084 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: 10 May 1996 23:29 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 33
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10MAY199623295453@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4mp9vo$lrj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4mt5ro$5fh@panix2.panix.com> <4mu9s5$r4s@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:48643 alt.revisionism:36084

In article <4mu9s5$r4s@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
> 
>	Speaking of harassment, this organization was kind enough to send
>me 87 identical copies of the 56k message.  Full message upon
>request.  You will notice that this harrassment policy appears to
>be that of the Government of Israel also.  
> 
>Return-Path: 
>Received: from relay.inter.net.il by ixmail2.ix.netcom.com
>(8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
>	id OAA29482; Thu, 9 May 1996 14:06:19 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: from israel-info.gov.il ([206.249.129.4]) by
>relay.inter.net.il (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id AAA05744 for
>; Fri, 10 May 1996 00:05:27 +0200
>Received: by israel-info.gov.il (5.0/SMI-SVR4)
>	id AA00849; Thu, 9 May 1996 23:58:16 +0200
>Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 23:58:16 +0200
>From: gopher@israel-info (message)
>Message-Id: <9605092158.AA00849@israel-info.gov.il>
>Subject: èàðñì åùâåäù èøåè÷åãä úåãåáò úîéùø
>Content-Type: text
>Apparently-To: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
> 

    You seem to have been spammed by someone who has routed Israeli junk
    mail to you by the bushel full.  Unlikely Israel itself is involved. 
    It is probably Marduk (whomever he is this week {snicker snicker}). 
    While I can't say I agree with spamming people with junk mail, I can
    say, "It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy."

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                   Quoth the Giwer: "Postage due??!!??"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 07:55:58 PDT 1996
Article: 36087 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 10 May 1996 23:49 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 53
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <10MAY199623493528@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <318f4e4c.3852988@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mu91h$kmf@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4mu91h$kmf@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

    [Most of Moran's psot deleted.  I responded to it several months ago
    when he first posted this rubbish.  Anyone interested can visit
    Dejanews and read the exchange.]

>>>>	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
>>>>European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
>>>>5,200,000 in just 210 years.
>>> 
>>>	Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>>>total European population over the same period of time.

    Note that Giwer makes and assertion:  Delta of Jewish population in
    Europe is expected to equal the delta of total population in Europe
    over the given period of 210 years.

>>    Great!  Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
>>    lack of knowledge in.  There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
>>    a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
>>    population as a whole.  Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
>>    and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.
> 
>>    I don't know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
>>    that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
>>    come up with.
> 
>	Which of your explanations would you like to suggest it true and
>support?  Why would you not check the population of Europe in the
>same time frame before you see whether you have to explain it as
>being greater or less than these numbers?

    I have no desire to suggest any of my candidate explantions are being
    true for Europe over these 210 years.  I have absolutely no idea what
    the European population was (and I don't care enough to walk over the
    the almanac and check.)  And I don't trust that Tommy got the Jewish
    population figures right.

    I didn't argue that the two deltas were unequal; I argued that you have
    no idea what you are talking about when you assert that "one would
    expect" them to be equal.  I am not disputing Tommy.  Been there; done
    that.  Tommy is a moron.

    I am simply arguing that you ONCE AGAIN opened your mouth on a subject
    you know nothing about.  And you got it wrong.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 07:55:59 PDT 1996
Article: 36088 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 10 May 1996 23:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
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Matt Giwer writes: 
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

    Clear the area everyone.  Tom Moran is doing math... without a net!

>>	Giwer, you have a legitimate consideration here. We have to
>>assume the Jewish population was at a certain low ratio then as it is
>>now. Maybe it was something like 2% or less. In that case we would
>>have to multiply the Jewish figures presented by that ratio. Whoa.
>>	So we have the Jewish 2% - lets make it 5%, giving them some
>>accomodation. So the 5% increased 7 1/2 times in the 210 years.
>>Leaving 95%. For every 5%, and in line with the Jewish increase of
>>4,500,000 for their 5%, we have the 4,500,000, times 19 = 85,000,000.
>>	Without the accomodation, and going by a 2% ratio, the figure
>>would be 220,000,000. 
>>	Wow.

    Tommy, I have looked at this and looked at this.  I don't know what to
    say.  For once you have left me speechless.  ;/

    I don't know how to react to something this stupid.

>	At least someone wants to stay on topic for this conference.
>	It is quite a number. 

    And the 163IQ is buying this garbage.  Sheesh.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 11:02:53 PDT 1996
Article: 36168 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Anti-Zionism = amti-Semitism?
Date: 11 May 1996 06:33 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 17
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References: <4md2lo$f2m@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <318ccb6e.10144482@news.pacificnet.net> <4mj0tb$69l@news.nyu.edu> <831752573snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <831752573snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk writes...
>In article <4mqe4f$apr@news.nyu.edu> jal5266@is.nyu.edu "Jeremy A. Litt" writes:
> 
>> Of course, if you weren't about 8 posts behind, you'd see the question has
>> become how one argues this, instrad of just making baseless
>> accusation...;...
> 
>I'm not logging on soft often now and I've also got other groups to monitor;
>I can't troll through 7 or 800 posts every time I log on.

    Well, it looks like Giwer has effectively ended your participation in
    a.r.  And here I thought that no good would come from Giwer's
    trolling...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 11:57:46 PDT 1996
Article: 36171 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: 11 May 1996 06:42 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 63
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    Matt Giwer said:

Because in the US only the IRS can establish who and for what
purposes such tax receipts can be granted. 

    I responded:

Congratulations, Mr. Giwer!  You have succesfully removed from Congress
its power to determine taxation!  Let's see, you've taken away the
Congrssional War Power, now the tax power, -- and given both to the
Executive Branch!  What's next -- the Executive exclusive power to
determine who can immigrate to this country?

    and 

No.  The power of taxation is classicly assigned to the legislative
branch, not the executive branch.  While the President traditionally
presents a budget to Congress and the President Constitutionally signs
budget bills, the President cannot enact taxation powers on his own. 
Congress, through veto overrides, CAN enact taxation legislation
without the cooperation of the President.

    We exchanged some insults, and then Giwer came back with:

The veto  and override procedures apply to all bills as does the
the procedure of veto and over ride apply to all laws.   You are
saying nothing unique to taxation.

The only restriction on revenue bills is the following.   

Sect. 7. All bill for raising revenue shall originate in the
         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
house of representative[s]; but the senate may propose or concur
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
with amendments as on other bills.

And as you notice only applies to which house of Congress can
originate such a bill.  It has nothing to do with assigning the
function.

No president can introduce a bill to Congress.  The best he can
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
do is have a friendly member of Congress do it for him.  A budget
is not a bill.  There is no Constitutional requirement for the
president to submit a budget.  

    SO in the end, he really agrees with me.  But then...

    As Mr. Green wrote, "Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller
    whose only interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound
    superficially plausible, he has lied about what has been said in
    exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to document claims,
    pretended not to see posts which contain documented refutation of his
    claims (even when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual
    libel, and generally conducted himself with such complete lack of
    intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in
    taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
    evidence of this, please refer to:
    URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt"

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 11:57:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36173 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 11 May 1996 06:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <4n11sf$5l5@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
> 
>	Relatives of more than one survivor?  
> 
>	Since we have a 30% survival rate that would result in each
>survivor sharing a bit over 60 relatives.  
> 
>	You are correct that Moran is wrong is wrong in one respect.  His
>calculation has a figured over twice as large as the official
>number.  It should only be a bit over 5 million not twelve.  

    More wonders of moronic math?  It's like those 10,000 Shakespeakean
    monkees are sitting at adding machines this week.

    Whoops, sorry, this is Giwer, the Moronic apologist who did this math. 
    Apparently his IQ test didn't have math problems on it.  {snicker}

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 11:57:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36181 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 11 May 1996 07:07 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <31948947.305712@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	This is a clarification and replacement to the numerical
>ciphering posted previously. The numerical ciphering remains the same,
>only the path of recogning is clarified. Sorry for any inconvenience
>the initial post may have caused.  
> 
>assume the Jewish population was at a certain low ratio then as it is
>now. Maybe it was something like 2% or less. The above would have us
>believe the 2% increased in population 4,500,000 in the 210 years. In
>that case we would have to calculate the remaining 98% population with
>the same ratio the Jews claim.
>	In order to give the Jewish claims some acomodation lets say
>they made up 5% of the population. So the 5% increased 4,500,000 in
>the 210 year period, and we assume the other 95% would increase in the
>same ratio. So 5% increased 4,500,000. There are twenty 5s in a
>hundred, leaving 19 of the 5s to be the non-Jewish population. Thus
>19 X 4,500,000 = 85,500,000. All during the time of massive famines,
>high birth mortalities, low average life spans, plagues and war.
> 
>	Without the accomodation, and going by a 2% ratio, the figure
>would be 220,000,000.
>	If the Jewish population ratio was only 1%, 440,000,000
>non-Jewish people would have been born during the period.
>	If it was only 1/2%, which it could very well have been,
>880,000,000.
> 
>	Half a percent, 1%, 2%, 5%, either way the claimed population
>increase is absurd.

    The only thing that is absurd here is your math.  Sheesh!

    Oh, my mistake.  Your concepts of demography are just as bad as your
    math, only they are harder to distinguish AS YOUR MATH IS SO BAD.

    This stuff is laughable.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 17:24:47 PDT 1996
Article: 36225 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!sgigate.sgi.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goldhagen's thesis (was Re: Alternate Introductory Sys
Date: 10 May 1996 22:40 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
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In article <4ms2n5$rc4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4moft1$8im@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...

>>>	Do you happen to own a baseball team?
> 
>>    Interesting question, troll.  I happened to grow up a Cincinnati Reds
>>    fan.  I can still name the entire line-up for most of the teams they
>>    fielded in the 70s.
> 
>	Then you would not remember Ted Kluseuski would you.  

    Well enough to know you spelled his name wrong, asshole.

>>    I boycotted baseball in '93 because of Marge Schott.  Everytime I think
>>    about maybe paying attention again, she goes and says something else
>>    stupid.
> 
>>    What I am saying above has absolutely nothing to do with the types of
>>    things she says.  And, as you haven't put forward any arguments
>>    disagreeing with me, I will assume you are simply engaging in idiotic
>>    trolling once again.
> 
>	Have you missed the latest outburst?  To the effect that everyone
>knows he started off doing good things and then went crazy?
> 
>	What might the difference be between that and 
> 
>I am convinced, for example, that it will not be
>>>>    possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can
>>>>    get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man. 
> 
>	What if Marge Schott has said those words?  

    It would be evidence her IQ shot up 50 points, asshole.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 20:33:36 PDT 1996
Article: 36257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: The Anti-Zionist Journal...
Date: 11 May 1996 18:10 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.religion.islam:18014 alt.revisionism:36257 alt.religion.christian:82358 soc.culture.israel:33236

In article <4mtlf4$an4@mikasa.iol.it>, The Anti-Sionist Journal writes...
> 
>		The Anti-Zionist Journal
> 
>A journal which you cannot miss! Available freely on request from:
> 
>	Mr. Alfred Olsen
>	P.O.Box 2833
>	Toyen
>	0608 - Oslo
>	Norway

    So you are more in favor of Norwegien Jews staying in Norway than you
    are in them going to Israel?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 20:33:37 PDT 1996
Article: 36258 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: medium, raw, well done?
Date: 11 May 1996 18:33 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 271
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In article <4mv9us$c7t@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, jbrolin546@aol.com (JBrolin546) writes...

    Excuse me Mr. Huber:

    1. Why do you post under several different names?  If one were
    suspicious, one might think you were being disengeneous with your
    readers.

    2. Why have you posted the exact same article you posted a week or so
    ago?

    3. Why, in this post, have you not addressed (either by acknowledging
    or rebutting) the factual errors in this post that were pointed out to
    you last week?

    ----------------------
>Date: Thursday, 02-May-96 11:03 PM
> 
>A letter to the web-page:
> 
>". . . I find your and your group's page informative and very thorough.  I
>am part German and Hungarian where I received part of my real education. 
>I
>will be going to Germany this summer.
> 
>Being an Engineering graduate, I believe that math never lies, but you
>don't
>have to be to understand the following logic (if you consider) that one,
>roughly needs the heat energy of 300 Kg of coal to combust one person. 
>Multiply this by 6 Million (the persons in question) and you get 1.8
>Million
>Tons of coal-which is way above the capacities of Germany during the war.
> 
>So if bodies were not burned, where are they ?
> 
>The question of time.  One needs 2 hr. today with modern ovens to burn one
>person and need to produce thousands of BTU 's of energy.  Take that 2 hr.
>and divide it by a day.  This works out to 12 bodies without time in
>between, even with 100 crematories (this is more than existing sites
>today)
> 
>One cannot burn the missing numbers!
> 
>Keep in mind the time span from 1943 May to 1945 March which is 660 days.
>This will only produce 792, 000 bodies max-not even close to a seven digit
>figure! (6 Mill)
> 
>The question of energy, the law of conservation of mass is true! Nothing
>is
>lost or gained;  it's transformed!
> 
>Where would all that energy (have) come from to fuel these so-called
>ovens?
>And nobody could miss the combustion products, the gases and smell.   I
>don't think the Germans would waste the coal, gas or fuel to dispose of
>the
>Jews when they hardly had enough fuel to run the tanks!
> 
>It does not make sense!    Thank you!"
> 
>Thank YOU!  A little common sense and grammar school arithmetic will go a
>long, long way!
> 
>However, there might be another explanation.  I found the following  some
>time ago and had it recently translated:
> 
>The Natural Sciences and Technology
>under National Socialism:  A Dry Analysis of Special Interest to Engineers
> 
>Over a period of almost 5 decades the act of "Coming to Terms with the
>Past"
>has illuminated every nook and cranny of National-Socialist activity in
>war
>and peace.
> 
>There is however one phenomenon which, until today, has not been described
>nor explored, and this is that this cynical ("Nazi") system managed to
>impose its own laws even on nature itself.
> 
>We present the following arguments in support of this claim.
> 
>1. The fourth law of thermodynamics, the so-called National-Socialist one,
>asserts that under certain political conditions, the effects of the other
>three laws may be limited.
> 
>Proof: Corpses burn like dry wood in the force-field of National Socialism
>..
>The burning can be enhanced with the addition of water, as the following
>practical cases demonstrate.
> 
>At the Jerusalem Trial of J. Demnjaniuk, eyewitness Elyiahu Rosenberg
>stated
>that "after the Germans discovered that women and children burn better
>than
>adult males, we had to throw the corpses of men into the fire only at the
>end." (M=FCnchener Abendzeitung, 27.2.87)
> 
>Remark: A person consists of between 60 and 70 % of water. The higher
>percentage holds for the bodies children, which, according to eye-witness
>testimony, burnt best of all.
> 
>The witness Szyia Warszawsky stated that "when the corpses caught fire,
>they
>burnt on their own." (Main record of The Investigation of Nazi Crimes in
>Poland).
> 
>A statement by French-Jewish doctor C.S. Bendel, sworn on 2.3.46 before an
>Allied military tribunal in Hamburg, stated that "it is an actual fact
>that
>1000 bodies thrown into such a ditch disappeared within an hour, they
>turned
>into ashes". (Document reprinted in U. Walendy, "Auschwitz in IG =46arben
>Prozess", Vlotho 1981, p.58)
> 
>2. The National-Socialist law of compact packing or the compression of
>matter without pressure.
> 
>This was applied in order to pack the optimum number of victims into a gas
>chamber.  According to eyewitness Dr. Bendel (ibid, p.55), "One thousand
>people were brought into a room with dimensions 10 by 4 by 1,6 meters (64
>cubic meters) [...] This could only be achieved by the German method."
> 
>Explanation: The body of an adult fits into a National-Socialist cube of
>side 40 centimetres.
> 
>3. The law of specific National-Socialist gas circulation. (Spontaneous
>homogeneous diffusion in a strongly inhomogeneous cavity-system).
> 
>This was confirmed by Judge Melder who tried Ernst Z=FCndel in November
>1991
>at Munich:
> 
>In a gas chamber packed full with people the slowly liberated poison-gas
>spreads itself evenly throughout the gas chamber without any fall in
>concentration.
> 
>4. The law of total annihilation of matter.
> 
>Proof: At least at Treblinka around 800 000 murdered people disappeared
>without leaving a trace.
> 
>5. The National-Socialist principle of oxidation. (Burning with a
>throttled
>supply of oxygen or without oxygen altogether).
> 
>Applied for the disposal of traces during and after mass-murder of Jews in
>Poland.
> 
>According to perpetrator Rudolf Hoess, "[...] for the most part, those
>gassed were burnt behind Crematorium IV [...] The bodies were at first
>burnt
>with oil residue, later by pouring on methanol. In the ditches corpses
>were
>burnt continuously, that is day and night."  (Martin Broszat (Ed.)
>"Commandant in Auschwitz", Munich 1981, p.165 and p.161 respectively).
> 
>Witness Szlama Dragon on the burning of corpses at Auschwitz (statement
>made
>on 11.5.45):  "[...] there were two 30m long 7m wide and 3m deep ditches
>at
>Auschwitz. The edges of the pits were blackened by smoke". (Kogon,
>Langbein
>& R=F6ckerl: "Nationalsozialistische Massent=F6tung durch Giftgas"
>("National-Socialist Mass-Murder with Poison-Gas"), Frankfurt/M 1983,
>p.211).
> 
>Explanation: In a hole in the ground fire has normally an insufficient
>supply of oxygen. Without National-Socialist technology it is impossible
>even today to burn wood and paper piles in a 3-metre deep ditch, let alone
>heaps of bodies.
> 
>Remark: Application of the National-Socialist oxidation principle found
>its
>perfect fulfilment at Auschwitz, namely under water. For, in the vicinity
>of
>the camp the water table reaches a level just beneath the surface of the
>ground. (Compare the photograph in the Magazine of the paper S=FCdeutschen
>Zeitung of 6.12.91, where one can observe a pool of water next to
>Crematorium IV). The burning-ditches were thus full of water.
> 
>6. The law of racially determined sensitivity to hydrocyanic acid. (The
>selective effect of HCN on homo sapiens Hebraeicus).
> 
>Proof:  The gas chambers at Auschwitz were in the immediate vicinity of
>other camp facilities, for instance the SS field hospital. Continuous
>ventilation of the gas chambers would certainly not have affected the
>guard
>detail - clearly a genetically  determined phenomenon. Also, following a
>still to be unravelled National-Socialist method, the Jewish work details
>would have been immune to poison, since they hauled the corpses out of the
>gas chambers without any protective clothing, gloves or gas-masks.  (M.
>Broszat, op. cit. p.130).
> 
>7. The gas chamber effect.
> 
>In the force-field of a National-Socialist gas chamber there occurs a wave
>alteration effect, so that the invisible becomes visible.
> 
>Eyewitness Boeck, a member of the guard detail, announced during the
>1964-1965 Frankfurt Auschwitz trial that he saw disposal squads working in
>the blue haze of Hydrogen cyanide gas.
> 
>Hint: Hydrogen Cyanide is normally colourless; ie. invisible. *
> 
>8. The National Socialist principle for generating carbon monoxide with
>the
>help of a Diesel engine.
> 
>Proof in the case of Treblinka: "There was a Diesel motor in an annex
>which
>generated poison gas."  (Kogon, Langbein, R=F6ckerl, op.cit., p.163).
> 
>Proof in the case of Belzec: "The engine itself stood there [...], it was
>Diesel-driven. (K. Gerstein, quoted in Kogon, Langbein & R=F6ckerl,
>op.cit.
>p.173).
> 
>Hint: At that time, to all practical purposes the ideal poison-gas
>generator
>would have been readily available in the form of one for generating
>producer-gas from wood. With 32% of its volume consisting of carbon
>monoxide, the propellant gas formed contained a high proportion of this
>highly toxic gas. (Meyer's Encyclopedia/Lexicon, 1974, vol. 12, p.207).
> 
>It is clear that special wartime circumstances determined that
>producer-gas
>generators should have been retained for the maintenance of truck
>transport
>on the home front. Thus the extermination camps in the East had to make do
>with Diesel engines, which even under present political conditions can
>only
>emit non-dangerous concentrations of about 0.5% carbon monoxide. (Meyer's
>Encyclopedia/Lexicon, 1971, vol.1, p.88).  Nevertheless, the circumstances
>prevailing during the National Socialist reign made it clearly possible to
>gain substantially greater emissions of carbon monoxide from a diesel
>engine, contrary to the design of its inventor. In any case one had to
>sacrifice extremely scarce Diesel fuel for this purpose; the producer-gas
>carburator would have had to make do with wood shavings.
> 
>The disclosure by natural scientists and technologists of these examples
>of
>the fearful capabilities of the terror regime (to name only a few) has
>been
>long overdue. For, only the knowledge of these things can neatly round off
>our picture of National Socialism.
> 
>It is amazing that the world has not yet been informed of this, even
>though
>the victors carried off thousands of scientists as well as all patents and
>research results as booty from a vanquished Germany.
>____
>*Remark of the translator. The German word for hydrocyanic acid (HCN),
>Blaus=E4ure, named after the blue in Prussian Blue, itself a cyanide
>compoun= d iron, might suggest to the ignorant that HCN should have a blue
>coloration. In order to sound more authentic perhaps Boeck thought this
>would be a realistic detail..."
>-Ingrid
> 
>________________  Dr. Rimland is an internationally known keynote
>speaker and award-winning author of several books and hundreds of columns
>and articles.
> 
>Her best-known books are "The Furies and the Flame," an autobiography, and
>"The Wanderers," the epic account of a pacifist group of Mennonites
>escaping
>during WW II from Communist persecution.
>**************************************8

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 23:04:32 PDT 1996
Article: 36273 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's See If Baron's a Bloody Chicken (Re: You've got t
Date: 11 May 1996 17:03 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 32
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11MAY199617034735@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <830245592snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4lm1jf$8ha@wave.rio.com>  <830562223snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4n2jgs$6b4@news.nyu.edu>
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In article <4n2jgs$6b4@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>Mike Curtis (mike@aimetering.com) wrote:
>: Alexander Baron  wrote:
>: 
>: >I think people have a right to believe lies on faith, but when they come out
>: >of their synagogues - or shtels - and try to shove their faith down my throat
>: >on peril of being branded anti-Semitic if I refuse to accept it, then I draw
>: >the line.
>: 
>: Really? I've never had on Jewish person shove their faith down my
>: throat. Unlike the Christians and the Mormons, I never see Jews out
>: trying to acquire new members or to convince anyone either way for
>: their brand of religion.
>: 
>That's because Judaism is not a proselytizing religion.  It's that same
>stance that has gotten blasts from anti-Semites who say Jews think they're
>to good for everyone else.
> 
>But I think what he is referring to is somehting else.  Mr.BAron seems to
>have confused Judaism and the holocaust.

    Of course this isn't what Baron was talking about.  He is whining that
    he is called anti-semitic for being, well, anti-semitic.  But in
    regards to the proselytizing claim, it is possible that Mr. Baron would
    experience this.  There are sects of Orthodox Judaism who believe it is
    appropriate to actively try to bring Jews who have strayed back into
    the faith.  As Mr. Baron's mother was Jewish, he would fall under the
    pervue of such sects.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 23:04:33 PDT 1996
Article: 36286 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Official Nizkor Code of Responding
Date: 11 May 1996 18:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11MAY199618220109@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4n33mq$4188@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
>In article <318f4c86.3399033@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) said:
> 
> 
>>Lshmctrfh,asnsh.
> 
>Moran attains the heights of his intellectual power.

    Either that, or he's got peanut butter on his fingers...

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 23:04:34 PDT 1996
Article: 36287 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: calgary.general,can.general,tor.general,mtl.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHY ALLOW FAGGOTS AS SO-CALLED REFUGEES?
Date: 11 May 1996 18:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11MAY199618225763@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31907E7F.5E3E@compusmart.ab.ca> <8MAY199621280066@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4n33nh$i9a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <4n33nh$i9a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
>In article <8MAY199621280066@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) said:
> 
>>    I wonder what the normal people of Canada think about having Grosvenor
>>    in their midst?  {shudder}
> 
>The normal people of Canada--luckily for them--don't know he exists.

    Ah, but Ken is gonna tell 'em, isn't he?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sat May 11 23:04:34 PDT 1996
Article: 36301 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 11 May 1996 18:43 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11MAY199618435562@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net> <319335e0.435500@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <319335e0.435500@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>	The world wide Jewish population today has been put at 13, 16
>or 20 million, take your pick. 
>	For the following ciphering lets give the doctor and any
>defenders some accomodation to keep the finale from being any more
>absurd than if we used any of the other numbers.
>	Lets say the figure was 10,000,000.
>	Lets just take 100,000 of this 10 million figure, or 1%. Lets
>say each one had 120 relatives lost in the Holocaust, as the doctor
>claims he had. This would come out to 12,000,000. One percent of 10
>million, times 120 relatives = yup, 12,000,000. 

    Tommy, you are being way too conservative.  Lets say the Jewish
    population in 1940 was about 15,000,000.  Now I would guess (and I'll
    bet even Yale will back me up on this) of those 15,000,000 at least
    8,000,000 (and maybe more) had someone who was a second cousin or
    closer who died in the Holocaust.  And lets say that on average these
    people lost 100 relatives (120 is probably too high for an average -
    100 may even be too high but it is a nice round reasonable number). 
    So, using your arithmetic, it would be 8,000,000 times 100 or
    800,000,000 Jews who died in the Holocaust.  

    Wow!  Tommy, you should go tell Simon Wiesenthal first chance you get!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:10 PDT 1996
Article: 36322 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.math.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the Indians
Date: 11 May 1996 21:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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Distribution: world
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In article <31935d8d.10592286@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...

>	There is no doubt the Jews are constantly crying about any
>"persecution" they have been subjected to. The Holocaust is the apex
>of examples. There is weekly programming on TV on the subject, there
>is weekly comment in major newspapers, and there are special programs
>instilled on our education systems. There are a myriad of museums and
>oraginizations focused on the Holocaust. The Holocaust seems to be the
>only thing that happened in history. Yellow school buses line up
>outside of the Holocaust Ministry of Love museums and the kids are
>guided through the tales of the myth on a daily basis.
>	But where are the American Indians? Certainly, far more
>documented than any Holocaust, is the total uprooting, killing,
>de-populating and displacement of the proud Indian. The real native 
>American. How come they aren't out there wailing and crying? 

    Because no one is denying that they died.

[big snip]

>	The crying motto of the Holocaust is "Never again". 

    That's who we are here, Tommy:  "Never Again, Internet Division"

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:10 PDT 1996
Article: 36343 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!news2.interlog.com!news.dra.com!news.mid.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Yahoo! and The Jooooooooooooooish ConSPIRACY
Date: 8 May 1996 14:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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Distribution: world
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In article <4mnlpv$ee@news.ios.com>, Ron  writes...
>Of course you censored the word Talmud. You a shit head how kisses the 
>ass of you masters.

    No.  Try it again.  It goes, "You are a shit head who kisses the ass of
    your masters."

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
             "Getting hit on the head lessons are next door"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:11 PDT 1996
Article: 36345 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sover.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A few questions for Ken McVay
Date: 11 May 1996 17:17 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 52
Distribution: world
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In article <4mtd5i$932@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4mn5n5$b7k@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>In article <5MAY199606212559@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>, 
>>>>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>>    And Nizkor is not in the United States (so you can't possibly mean
>>>>>    them.)
>>> 
>>>>Minor correction. The Nizkor Project is Canadian. Nizkor USA,
>>>>however, is American :-)
>>> 
>>>>Watch for it... and Nizkor UK.
>>>>Coming soon to your favourite country.
>>> 
>>>	Incorporated?  Sole proprietorship?  Partnership?  
>>>	Inquiring minds want to know.  
> 
>>    I believe that Ken has already answered this.  I recall seeing him say
>>    that they are a not-for-profit organization that has applied for tax
>>    exempt status.
> 
>>>	Are you going to offer any answers for what otherwise appears to
>>>be a scam?
> 
>>    On what grounds do you believe it appears to be a scam?  As best I can
>>    tell they purport to be an educational and archival repository
>>    institution and are presenting educational information via their web
>>    site.  What do you surmise that this different than this?
> 
>	My "surmise" is based solely upon the defense offeren for it.
> 
>	My first observation was that it was a religious site based upon
>contributions being solicited through and accepted by the
>synagogue.  
> 
>	Its defenders jumped in to deny that.  
> 
>	Given the defenders are correct I would expect the deductions to
>be denied due to the lack of a connection between the synagogue
>and the site. 

    The Nizkor people don't seem too worried about it.  As this topic has
    moved far afield from the historicality of the Holocasut, I don't see
    any point in continuing it.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:12 PDT 1996
Article: 36375 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 11 May 1996 18:07 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 21
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11MAY199618073228@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3193499a.5485524@news.pacificnet.net> <4n0sr6$9rk@news.enter.net> <10MAY199623213123@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <31950742.10409232@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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In article <31950742.10409232@news.srv.ualberta.ca>, jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) writes...
>On Sat, 11 May 1996 13:30:53 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
> 
>[snip]
> 
>>	Okay now it has been escalated to "hundreds of relatives
>>each". Lets consider it to mean 200. This would come out to 20,000,000
>>people lost, considering only 1% of the accomodating number of
>>10,000,000.
> 
>Just for the excerise of doing it, I counted up the number of direct
>descendants of my maternal grandmother. The number is about fifty for
>that one woman alone. Using your arithmetic, I estimate that the death
>toll, if we were all to die at once, would be 2500 people.

    And the death toll would be higher if there were any survivors!

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:12 PDT 1996
Article: 36382 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 11 May 1996 21:11 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
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In article <31933eab.2687095@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>>
>>    Great!  Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
>>    lack of knowledge in.  There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
>>    a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
>>    population as a whole.  Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
>>    and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.
>>
>>    I don't know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
>>    that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
>>    come up with.
> 
>	I agree. You certainly would have to resort to claiming some
>wild extremes in order to validate your above and down play the
>absurdity the numbers suggest.
>	Even if you said Jews lives twice as long, had twice as many
>children, emigrated twice as much as the goyim population the numbers
>would still be absurd.

    Well, as you know, I was referring to Giwer's post (which you deleted
    in order to make your cute reply work).  But I am willing to address
    the numbers you put forward.  Now what exactly from Bauer's book are
    you saying was impossible?  You did a lot of hand waving, but I didn't
    see any solid claims made.  Care to be explicit?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:13 PDT 1996
Article: 36412 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,news.admin.misc
Subject: Re: US Jew harrasses Internet user
Date: 12 May 1996 06:56 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 52
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199606565934@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <4n3dmi$j3j@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <4mu9s5$r4s@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>> 
>>>	Speaking of harassment, this organization was kind enough to send
>>>me 87 identical copies of the 56k message.  Full message upon
>>>request.  You will notice that this harrassment policy appears to
>>>be that of the Government of Israel also.  

[actual post clipped] 

>>    You seem to have been spammed by someone who has routed Israeli junk
>>    mail to you by the bushel full.  Unlikely Israel itself is involved. 
>>    It is probably Marduk (whomever he is this week {snicker snicker}). 
>>    While I can't say I agree with spamming people with junk mail, I can
>>    say, "It couldn't have happened to a nicer guy."
> 
>	Learn to read headers some day.   What are you going to claim
>gov.il means?  Be creative so all the holohuggers can swear that
>it is true even though it is false.  Play with the address and
>find its website.  

    Sorry, I wan't completely clear.  My guess is that someone went to an
    Israeli government web page, filled out a form requesting additional
    information from the government, and typed in your email address.  Then
    they found a way to loop this activity so that you would get LOTS of
    email.  From the Israeli government side it was a mailbot which filled
    the orders - rather than any sort of plot to get you.  That is my
    guess due to the fact I can't imagine that the Israeli government knows
    you exist, let alone cares about you.

>	And of course until I get a response stating that action has been
>taken against the person who did it, it remains the
>responsibility and action of the government of Israel and
>evidence of what the Israeli government will do.  I will post any
>responses I receive in the matter.

    Fine blame the Israelis.  Please don't post any response you receive to
    alt.revisionism as the matter is off topic.  And as such, I will not
    respond further.

    Followups set to News.admin.misc
> 
>-----
> 
>     It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather 
>the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
> 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:14 PDT 1996
Article: 36415 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 12 May 1996 07:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 70
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199607011051@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <318f4e4c.3852988@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4n3ifi$nif@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4n3ifi$nif@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <31948947.305712@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>> 
>>>	This is a clarification and replacement to the numerical
>>>ciphering posted previously. The numerical ciphering remains the same,
>>>only the path of recogning is clarified. Sorry for any inconvenience
>>>the initial post may have caused.  
>>> 
>>>assume the Jewish population was at a certain low ratio then as it is
>>>now. Maybe it was something like 2% or less. The above would have us
>>>believe the 2% increased in population 4,500,000 in the 210 years. In
>>>that case we would have to calculate the remaining 98% population with
>>>the same ratio the Jews claim.
>>>	In order to give the Jewish claims some acomodation lets say
>>>they made up 5% of the population. So the 5% increased 4,500,000 in
>>>the 210 year period, and we assume the other 95% would increase in the
>>>same ratio. So 5% increased 4,500,000. There are twenty 5s in a
>>>hundred, leaving 19 of the 5s to be the non-Jewish population. Thus
>>>19 X 4,500,000 = 85,500,000. All during the time of massive famines,
>>>high birth mortalities, low average life spans, plagues and war.
>>> 
>>>	Without the accomodation, and going by a 2% ratio, the figure
>>>would be 220,000,000.
>>>	If the Jewish population ratio was only 1%, 440,000,000
>>>non-Jewish people would have been born during the period.
>>>	If it was only 1/2%, which it could very well have been,
>>>880,000,000.
>>> 
>>>	Half a percent, 1%, 2%, 5%, either way the claimed population
>>>increase is absurd.
> 
>>    The only thing that is absurd here is your math.  Sheesh!
> 
>>    Oh, my mistake.  Your concepts of demography are just as bad as your
>>    math, only they are harder to distinguish AS YOUR MATH IS SO BAD.
> 
>>    This stuff is laughable.
> 
>	Since you have determined that it is laughable that means you
>have done the calculations in such manner as you believe correct.
> 
>	Why not post the work you have done?
> 
>	That was rhetoric of course as you did nothing but deem them
>laughable, or perhaps you can claim that it is "intuitively
>obvious" or some such.  But the least you could would be to
>demonstrate your claim  of laughable so that your math can be
>reviewed.
> 
>	But you will not do that.  

    No, I will not do that.  Not for you.

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:14 PDT 1996
Article: 36416 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 12 May 1996 07:08 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 89
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199607080154@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <318f4e4c.3852988@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4n3ikd$hck@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4n3ikd$hck@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <4mu91h$kmf@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>> 
>>>>In article <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> 
>>    [Most of Moran's psot deleted.  I responded to it several months ago
>>    when he first posted this rubbish.  Anyone interested can visit
>>    Dejanews and read the exchange.]
> 
>>>>>>	Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the
>>>>>>European Jewish population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to
>>>>>>5,200,000 in just 210 years.
>>>>> 
>>>>>	Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
>>>>>total European population over the same period of time.
> 
>>    Note that Giwer makes and assertion:  Delta of Jewish population in
>>    Europe is expected to equal the delta of total population in Europe
>>    over the given period of 210 years.
> 
>	Uniformitarian assumptions have been one of the mainstays of
>science to point out what anomalies are in need of explanation.
>But you did not know that.

    It may be true in physics, I couldn't say.  It isn't true here.

>>>>    Great!  Matt Giwer adds demography to fields which he demonstrates a
>>>>    lack of knowledge in.  There can be many possible hypotheses as to why
>>>>    a subgroup of a population grows at a different rate than the
>>>>    population as a whole.  Immigration, Emigration, differing birth rates,
>>>>    and differing death rates all come to mind as the basics.
>>> 
>>>>    I don't know chemistry, but I do know emough about demographics to know
>>>>    that the statement above is about as stupid as anything else Matty has
>>>>    come up with.
>>> 
>>>	Which of your explanations would you like to suggest it true and
>>>support?  Why would you not check the population of Europe in the
>>>same time frame before you see whether you have to explain it as
>>>being greater or less than these numbers?
> 
>>    I have no desire to suggest any of my candidate explantions are being
>>    true for Europe over these 210 years.  I have absolutely no idea what
>>    the European population was (and I don't care enough to walk over the
>>    the almanac and check.)  And I don't trust that Tommy got the Jewish
>>    population figures right.
> 
>	No, Galileo, I will not look through your telescope.

    Niether you nor Tommy have presented a problem worth solving.  State a
    real problem or conundrum which causes doubt on the Holocaust, and I
    will endeavor to address it.  Right now, all I am dealing with is two
    people, one of whom can't set up a math problem ot save his life and
    the other who keeps asserting facts in fields he doesn't understand. 
    There is no problem or conundrum on the table regarding the Holocaust.

>>    I didn't argue that the two deltas were unequal; I argued that you have
>>    no idea what you are talking about when you assert that "one would
>>    expect" them to be equal.  I am not disputing Tommy.  Been there; done
>>    that.  Tommy is a moron.
> 
>>    I am simply arguing that you ONCE AGAIN opened your mouth on a subject
>>    you know nothing about.  And you got it wrong.
> 
>	And you have responded to something at which you will not look.
>That is an act of faith not of reason.

    There is no problem on the table to look at.  Clearly state one (that
    relates to the Holocaust) and I will look at it.  I doubt that you will
    as:

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:15 PDT 1996
Article: 36417 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Alt.revisionism is impossible
Date: 12 May 1996 07:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199607193508@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <831766696snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <831766696snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk writes...
>I logged on tonight and downloaded 430 messages from this newsgroup alone?
>This is preposterous. Alloting 2 seconds to read every message would take
>fifteen minutes. Has anyone any suggestions how we can reduce this to 
>manageable proportions? 

    It's Giwer.  Look, the leadership of this quasi neo-Nazi movement you
    are loosely associated with is out there selling swill to every angry,
    racist, knuckle dragging low life you can find.  As they learn of this
    denial movement and come onto usenet they behave like, well, angry,
    racist, knuckle dragging low lives.  So, if one of them starts spamming
    alt.revisionism with lots of angry, racist garbage, don't blame us.

    You are the guy who sells the stuff and recruits them in.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:16 PDT 1996
Article: 36421 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust/UFO Analogy
Date: 12 May 1996 07:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199607241559@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31861a38.187019@news.pacificnet.net> <831298558snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4mljos$2er@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <831766806snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>
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In article <831766806snz@abaron.demon.co.uk>, A_Baron@abaron.demon.co.uk writes...
>In article <9MAY199606084727@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
>           dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu "Daniel Mittleman" writes:
>>     That's true.  Here's the formula bubby:
>> 
>>     UFOs       :  weak evidence
>>     Holocaust  :  weak evidence + strong evidence
> 
>How about Holocaust: weak evidence + half-credible evidence + wishful thinking
>+ anti-Semite smears for all skeptics?

    I haven't seen examples of "wishful thinking"; got any?  The
    half-credible evidence lumps under weak evidence.  There are lots of
    historians who debate aspects of the Holocaust without any anti-semitic
    smears.  Those smears are saved for individuals who continually assert
    as "fact" pieces of information which do not hold up to scrutiny. 
    Legitimate researchers, when confronted by counter evidence, either [1]
    back off on their claims, or [2] directly address and refute the
    counter evidence.  "Deniers" who do neither of these options often
    merit the anti-semitic smears. 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 09:27:17 PDT 1996
Article: 36422 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 12 May 1996 07:57 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 75
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199607570087@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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Followups-to: soc.history
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:36422 soc.history:5187

    [as it is unclear this thread has anything to so with the Holocaust,
    follow ups are directed to soc.history]

    Tom Moran began this thread by presenting the following chart:

>>>>: >   Year             Jews in Europe             Total Jews world wide
>>>>: >   1650                700,000                     1,750,000
>>>>: >   1700               1,000,000                    1,250,000
>>>>: >   1750               1,250,000                    2,250,000
>>>>: >   1800               1,500,000                    2,500,000
>>>>: >   1825               2,730,000                    3,281,000
>>>>: >   1840               3,600,000                    4,500,000
>>>>: >   1850               4,127,000                    4,764,500
>>>>: >   1860               5,200,000                    6,000,000
>>>>: >"Source:Arthur Ruppin, Soziologie der Juden (Berlin, 1931), pp. 81,89"

    and Tom asserted:

Right in the beginning we can see the list showing that the European Jewish
population increased 7 1/2 times, from 700,000 to 5,200,000 in just 210
years.  Of course one would expect a similar percentage increase in the
total European population over the same period of time.

    Matt Giwer jumped in and asserted:

..in times without reliable birth control and with there not being a
particular health difference between city and farm if there were in fact a
significant difference it would certainly be what needs explaining.

    I replied to Matt:

Birthrate differences between city and farm is one of the
classic issues of demography.  Every demographer knows about it.  It is
even taught in UNDERGRADUATE demography classes.  BUT, that wasn't the
question.  You just brought up city and farm on your own for no reason.

    And Matt responded:

Today, perhaps, but I believe it was Boswell, resident of London,
who was asked the number of children he had and replied something
like, "Six but I don't count the ones under five."
I brought up the city v farm issue to cut you off at the pass.  

    And I say: Matt, that is exactly my point.  Until they reached the age
    of five they could not work in fields nor factories and therefore did
    not count (though Boswell was probably just being humorous in his
    response).  I am so happy you cut me off at the pass.

    Now, before Matt interrupted, I responded to Tom Moran's point with:

There is no reason to believe a sub-population grows at the same rate
as the whole population.  There are four basic ways the sub-population
might grow differently: different birth rate, different death rate,
different immigration rate, different emigration rate.  There are also
several construct validity issues which might effect the numbers, but
that is getting into way too much detail.  Of the four basics, I can
put together hypotheses arguing possibilities for all four vectors. 
For example, Jews might have been emigrating from Europe at a different
rate than non-Jews due to immigration policies in countries on other
continents.

    Let me expand on this now to say it is also possible that Jewish birth
    rates differed from Non-Jews and that Jewish death rates differed from
    non-Jews.  I am unfamilair enough with the history of the era to know
    which hypotheses make the most sense.  Are there any soc.history
    readers who might explain why the rate of growth of Jewish population
    in Europe from 1650 to 1860 differed from the rate of growth of the
    overall population?  (Note: it may not be clear from the above but the
    overall population in Europe increased approximately 170% [cite: World
    Almanac, 1994, p828] while Jewish population grew about 650% [see
    Moran's post above]). 

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 11:06:48 PDT 1996
Article: 44053 of can.politics
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: calgary.general,can.general,tor.general,mtl.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHY ALLOW FAGGOTS AS SO-CALLED REFUGEES?
Date: 11 May 1996 18:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11MAY199618225763@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31907E7F.5E3E@compusmart.ab.ca> <8MAY199621280066@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4n33nh$i9a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca can.general:76855 can.politics:44053 alt.revisionism:36287

In article <4n33nh$i9a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
>In article <8MAY199621280066@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) said:
> 
>>    I wonder what the normal people of Canada think about having Grosvenor
>>    in their midst?  {shudder}
> 
>The normal people of Canada--luckily for them--don't know he exists.

    Ah, but Ken is gonna tell 'em, isn't he?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 12:05:27 PDT 1996
Article: 36455 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The WWII Hoax
Date: 12 May 1996 10:55 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 54
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199610555606@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31669b42.7032542@news.pacificnet.net> <4lu8il$in@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4m3chj$52f@shiva.usa.net> <4mvifb$aq4@news.nyu.edu>
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{posted/emailed}

In article <4mvifb$aq4@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>: m0g$335@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
>: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:
>: >: >In article <4m6q4c$ktr@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>: >: >Matt Giwer  wrote:
>: >: >>	Just wait until I take on WW II and it defenders arise against my
>: >: >>fierce assualt upon it ever having occurred.  
>: >: 
>: >: >    Evidently Mr. Giwer was not reading the newsgroup when the challenge
>: >: >was issued to present the one or two best pieces of evidence to prove WWII
>: >: >occurred.  Not one person was able to come up with anything that even came
>: >: >close.
>: >: 
>: >: 	Read what I said and compare it to that little challenge.  In any
>: >: event there are already two of us to go after WW II.  A little
>: >: teamwork never hurts.
>: 
>: >Oka, Mr. GIwer.  Go ahead.  Prove World War II happened.
>: 
>: 	You appear to have a problem.  Even after I clearly repeat that I
>: would be the one demanding proof.  So it appears we are on the
>: same side on this one.  Shall we issue joint challenge to the
>: rest?
> 
>No, Mr. Giwer.  What am interested in is seeing what you could post that
>you would consider 'proof' that a well-known, highly documented historical
>event happened.  I don't think you can do it, mainly because I don't think
>you knw what you consider proof.
> 
>I think Moran or Baron could take a stab at it -- I think they;d fail
>miserably, but they would try to post something, because I think they
>really are serious Revisionists, as stupid as that is.  But i don't think
>you know how to build a case with evidence -- I think you're a troll who
>just likes to try and tear things down through selective observation,
>nit-picking, and deliberate obfuscation.
> 
>So go ahead -- show us how you would 'prove' World War II happened.

    Jeremy, I think you are out on a limb here.  As tortable as Giwer is,
    he has been consistent in this particular thread.  I believe you may
    have misread a response of his early in the thread.  He - all along -
    has been saying the exact same thing as you here.

    Giwer is guilty of too much other bufoonary.  There is no reason to
    push him in a thread where he is not being a bufoon.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 12:05:29 PDT 1996
Article: 36456 of alt.revisionism
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From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.islam,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.christian,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: The Anti-Zionist Journal...
Date: 12 May 1996 10:58 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199610583622@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4mtlf4$an4@mikasa.iol.it> <319570B4.79E9@orausa.com>
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[posted/emailed]

In article <319570B4.79E9@orausa.com>, g@orausa.com writes...
>The, Anti-Sionist, Journal wrote:
>> 
>>                 The Anti-Zionist Journal
> A journal which you cannot miss! Available freely on request from:
>> 
>>         Mr. Alfred Olsen
>>         P.O.Box 2833
>>         Toyen
>>         0608 - Oslo
>>         Norway
> 
>Of course, It's the same country that gave us the "Peace Process" and 
>awarded Yassir the Nobel Prize.

    Actually, the Nobel Prize is awarded out of Stockholm, Sweeden.  But I
    can understand your confusion, all those aryans look the same to me. :>

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 12:05:30 PDT 1996
Article: 36458 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Questioning Nizkor
Date: 12 May 1996 11:01 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199611010585@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4muqdc$svf@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4n2bcq$40r@news.nyu.edu> <4n3tj0$mhq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4n3tj0$mhq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
> 
>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>: 
>>: 	Who runs it?
>>: 	Who pays the bills for it?
> 
>>Who cares?  If the material is true, it's true.  If it's not, it's not.
>>This is just an irrelevant troll that's been going on too long.
> 
>	The "if" is the point of discussion here.  And it all started
>when I pointed out that Nizkor is a religious organization as it
>is a subsidiary of a synagogue.  Simply going by the domain alone
>it is clear the site name was changed from ALMANAC to NIZKOR for
>some reason.  Perhaps the sponsorship.  

    And Giwer's domain name was changed from COMBASE to NETCOM? 
    Coincidence?  You be the judge!  Sheesh.  For the record:

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 12:05:31 PDT 1996
Article: 36465 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Star Jewish pop. source goes bye, bye
Date: 12 May 1996 11:19 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199611193830@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <318f4fc5.4229389@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp3v2$qkq@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4mqutq$fqr@news.nyu.edu> <4n3thr$mhq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <4n3thr$mhq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) wrote:
> 
>>Revisionist ask why the Germans would be illogical enough to devote
>>resources to killing Jews at this time; I can ask why Hitler was illogical
>>enough to invade Russia before beating England.  There are answers to
>>both, but fact is that its seemig illogical nature to us doesn't prove
>>that the Germans did not have a different set of priorities.
> 
>	That is not the point at all.  But as for your fixation on
>Hitler, even Danny Keren has posted that we will not get to the
>truth of this until some people get passed the fixation that
>Hitler was evil.  

    [1] It was not Danny Keren who made the assertion, it was me.  Keep you
    Dannys straight.

    [2] Your reply to Jeremy is not responsive to his question.  That is
    not surprising given your track record.  To the uninitiated:

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 12:05:32 PDT 1996
Article: 36467 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.history
Subject: Re: Europe has always hated Jews
Date: 12 May 1996 11:24 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199611243219@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <4n3tis$mhq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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Followups-to: soc.culture.history
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[followups set to soc.culture.history]

In article <4n3tis$mhq@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>	Or something like the subject.  Constant pointing to centuries of
>problems and pogroms and whatever is popular at the moment.  
> 
>	Turn on the Wayback machine.  The fuedal system was no secret.
>To become part of it one became a Christian, like it or not.  Yet
>Jews migrated into this system knowning they were not prepared to
>become part of it and could not become part of it without
>converting.
> 
>	Or course maybe the problems started after it was not easy to
>leave.   But consider that there are still Jews in Europe at all.
>Where are the Albegenisians?  Where are the Knights Templar?
>(Please do not link them to the Rosicrusians.)  Yet these are
>only minor variations within Chrisitanity.  And they were wiped
>out by their fellow Christians.  
> 
>	Certainly the Jewish immigrants to Europe knew the Christian
>attitude towards other religions.  Certainly they had heard the
>proud stories of Christians saints who had wiped out other
>religions in one way or another.
> 
>	If you don't mind folks, I would say that anyone griping about
>the way Jews were treated in Europe needs get their own Wayback
>machine and explain to their ancestors to go back where they came
>from to save their descendants much grief.  
> 
>	This is not to say that any of those ancestors could know the
>future but the could certainly know the past of Christian Europe
>at the time they voluntarily migrated there.  

    Followups to this post are directed to soc.culture.history as this post
    has nothing at all to do with the Holocaust and as such is off topic to
    alt.revisionism.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 12:41:11 PDT 1996
Article: 76855 of can.general
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: calgary.general,can.general,tor.general,mtl.general,can.politics,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: WHY ALLOW FAGGOTS AS SO-CALLED REFUGEES?
Date: 11 May 1996 18:22 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 14
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <11MAY199618225763@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <31907E7F.5E3E@compusmart.ab.ca> <8MAY199621280066@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4n33nh$i9a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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In article <4n33nh$i9a@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net writes...
>In article <8MAY199621280066@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu>,
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) said:
> 
>>    I wonder what the normal people of Canada think about having Grosvenor
>>    in their midst?  {shudder}
> 
>The normal people of Canada--luckily for them--don't know he exists.

    Ah, but Ken is gonna tell 'em, isn't he?

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 12:55:37 PDT 1996
Article: 36471 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Plea
Date: 12 May 1996 11:52 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 66
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199611525067@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net> <9MAY199617451266@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4mullb$pov@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <4n3j1n$hck@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4n3j1n$hck@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <4mvpsf$au5@news.nyu.edu>, jal5266@is.nyu.edu (Jeremy A. Litt) writes...
>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>>: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>: 
>>>: >In article <3192014f.4773531@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>>: >>Dr. Irving Moskowitz "says he is merely doing the '"natural thing for
>>>: >>a Jew"'.
>>>: >>	He is cited as an orthodix Jew who lost 120 relatives in the
>>>: >>Holocaust. 
>>>: >>	Interesting. One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
>>>: >>It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he arrives
>>>: >>at it.
>>>: 
>>>: >    You call it *fun* to ask someone to recount for you all of their dead
>>>: >    relatives?
> 
>>    Looks like Matt Giwer considers this *fun* also...
> 
>>>: >>	One hundred and twenty relatives? Ah yes, a "natural thing" to
>>>: >>assert.
>>>: 
>>>: >    Especially if it happened.
>>>: 
>>>: >>	Does he know no one will look into it? Yes. That is why "the
>>>: >>natural thing" is to just blurt out a gross fabrication. 
>>>: 
>>>: >    Well, I have never heard of the man so I can't assert I know what he
>>>: >    said is true, but consider the following:
>>>: 
>>>: >    As 90% of the Jews in Poland and other Eastern European countries were
>>>: >    killed by the Nazi's, it makes sense that several of the survivors
>>>: >    would have experienced losing 90% or so of their relatives.  
>>>: 
>>>: 	Can you name 132 (120 + 12 more or less)ancestral relatives and
>>>: the manner in which they died?  That is without even going into
>>>: other requirements for this to be true.
> 
>>    If I had 132 relatives killed over a six year period during one macro
>>    act of genocide, I certainly could.  Asshole.
> 
>	Do so.

    I haven't had 132 relatives killed over a six year period during one
    macro act of genocide (as I stated above earlier in the discussion,
    asshole.)  And your insistence that individuals (Yale and me) produce
    such names is insulting.  Not unexpected, though, as you have proven to
    be no more than a nasty troll.  To the uninitiated:

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    End of conversation.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 13:59:34 PDT 1996
Article: 36477 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 12 May 1996 12:14 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 59
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199612145507@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <318f4e4c.3852988@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <4n4355$5sa@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4n4355$5sa@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
> 
>>In article <3194ab76.9055979@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>> 
>>>>    The only thing that is absurd here is your math.  Sheesh!
>>>>
>>>>    Oh, my mistake.  Your concepts of demography are just as bad as your
>>>>    math, only they are harder to distinguish AS YOUR MATH IS SO BAD.
>>>>
>>>>    This stuff is laughable.
>>>>
>>>	Mittleman's method of responding to a mathematical statement.
>>>He's so smug. He's so pert. He's so matter of fact. But no
>>>mathematical rebuke.
> 
>>    Hey!  I may be smug, but I ain't pert!
> 
>>    I didn't respond because your math was so stupid I didn't know where to
>>    start.  
> 
>	Start anywhere.  It should not be hard for a math expert such as
>yourself.
> 
>I didn't worry too much though as anyone dumb enough to accept
>>    your math isn't too much of a threat.
> 
>>    Tommy, your arithmetic was OK, but you set up your word problem all
>>    wrong - and you made several stupid assumptions which led you to your
>>    outrageous answer.  You knew your answer was outrageous, that was the
>>    point of your post.  What you apparently didn't consider was that the
>>    reason your answer was outrageous was that you set up the problem all
>>    wrong.
> 
>>    Should I go back and do your work for you?  No, its too much trouble
>>    and your whole post is so stupid it really doesn't require rebutting. 
>>    I'll save my energy for the more threatening arguments.
> 
>	It is agreed.  You are unable to do so.

    If it makes Giwer happy to demonically assert it, ok, I am unable to do
    junior high math.  Now that that is settled, new readers should know:

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

    Since I have ceded to Giwer this point, end of conversation.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Sun May 12 13:59:36 PDT 1996
Article: 36485 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hebrew Numerology
Date: 12 May 1996 12:52 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 40
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199612521015@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References: <318f4e4c.3852988@news.pacificnet.net> <4mp2i5$p8q@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <8MAY199614194126@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <12MAY199612145507@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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In article <12MAY199612145507@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) writes...
>In article <4n4355$5sa@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>> 
>>>    Tommy, your arithmetic was OK, but you set up your word problem all
>>>    wrong - and you made several stupid assumptions which led you to your
>>>    outrageous answer.  You knew your answer was outrageous, that was the
>>>    point of your post.  What you apparently didn't consider was that the
>>>    reason your answer was outrageous was that you set up the problem all
>>>    wrong.
>> 
>>>    Should I go back and do your work for you?  No, its too much trouble
>>>    and your whole post is so stupid it really doesn't require rebutting. 
>>>    I'll save my energy for the more threatening arguments.
>> 
>>	It is agreed.  You are unable to do so.
> 
>    If it makes Giwer happy to demonically assert it, ok, I am unable to do
>    junior high math.  Now that that is settled, new readers should know:
> 
>    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
>    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
>    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
>    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
>    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
>    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
>    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
>    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
>    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
> 
>    Since I have ceded to Giwer this point, end of conversation.

    One addendum: while I will not continue the conversation with Giwer, I
    will consider continuing it with Tommy.  As I wrote to him elsewhere,
    if he takes his numeric rambling and forms it into a clear and concise
    question regarding the Holocaust, I will address that question for him.

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"


From dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu Mon May 13 06:28:07 PDT 1996
Article: 36568 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman
From: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,rec.sports.baseball.cinci-reds
Subject: Re: Goldhagen's thesis (was Re: Alternate Introductory Sys
Date: 12 May 1996 07:14 MST
Organization: University of Arizona (BPA)
Lines: 68
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <12MAY199607141647@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
References:  <4mb369$gnp@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4n3irj$hck@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu
Followups-to: rec.sports.baseball.cinci-reds
News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50    

In article <4n3irj$hck@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>In article <4ms2n5$rc4@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Daniel Mittleman) wrote:
>>>>In article <4moft1$8im@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes...
> 
>>>>>	Do you happen to own a baseball team?
>>> 
>>>>    Interesting question, troll.  I happened to grow up a Cincinnati Reds
>>>>    fan.  I can still name the entire line-up for most of the teams they
>>>>    fielded in the 70s.
>>> 
>>>	Then you would not remember Ted Kluseuski would you.  
> 
>>    Well enough to know you spelled his name wrong, asshole.
> 
>	It has been longer for me than for you youngster. 	

    Who cares.

>>>>    I boycotted baseball in '93 because of Marge Schott.  Everytime I think
>>>>    about maybe paying attention again, she goes and says something else
>>>>    stupid.
>>> 
>>>>    What I am saying above has absolutely nothing to do with the types of
>>>>    things she says.  And, as you haven't put forward any arguments
>>>>    disagreeing with me, I will assume you are simply engaging in idiotic
>>>>    trolling once again.
>>> 
>>>	Have you missed the latest outburst?  To the effect that everyone
>>>knows he started off doing good things and then went crazy?
>>> 
>>>	What might the difference be between that and 
>>> 
>>>I am convinced, for example, that it will not be
>>>>>>    possible for historians to adequately study Nazi Germany until we can
>>>>>>    get past this obsession of insisting that Hitler was an evil man. 
>>> 
>>>	What if Marge Schott has said those words?  
> 
>>    It would be evidence her IQ shot up 50 points, asshole.
> 
>	In her own style, that is what she said.  You two sound the same.

    I assume rather than calling me a racist Nazi, you are saying that she
    isn't one?  Possibly, but I doubt it.  Just as in our discussion of the
    Holocaust, you are focusing on one piece of information and ignoring
    lots of other evidence that has previously been collected.  It is the
    amalgam of all of this evidence which leads one to a conclusion.

    This discussion has drifted, though, from actually talking aobutthe
    holocaust.  Followups are set to rec.sports.baseball.cinci-reds.  Go
    argue about Marge over there.  Readers there should know:

    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

                         daniel david mittleman 
===========================================================================
                     Quoth the H*ber: "Never! More!"

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