The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/m/mckinstry.colin/1997/pugnandus.0197


From Pugnandus Sat Jan 18 09:02:59 PST 1997
Article: 93392 of alt.revisionism
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: 17 Jan 1997 11:36:14 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <5bokbe$hb8@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <5be3c6$hi0@lex.zippo.com>  <5blvdd$gv8@lex.zippo.com> <5bohnf$rq5@scoop.eco.twg.com>
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In article <5bohnf$rq5@scoop.eco.twg.com>, chall@eco.twg.com says...
>
>In article <5blvdd$gv8@lex.zippo.com>,   wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>Er wrong.  If McVay is not interested in removing my files of Nizkor, I will not
>>be taking the matter to the injustice courts who favour minorities and those
>>that brown-nose them.  No, I will consider entering Nizkor myself to remove 
>>them.  Since McVay is likely to have them backed up, I will probably have to do
>>something that will do permanent damage, like an AI virus that wears out his
>>hardware.
>
>It's my understanding that the Nizkor machines are running a sophisticated
>set of state-of-the-art filter programs, which are capable of detecting
>incoming "AI viruses" and neutralizing them before they can do any
>"permanent damage" to the "hardware".
>
Bah ha ha.

No system is fullproof, and quite simply an AI virus is designed to adapt.  You
throw a filtering device or anti-virus type programs at it, it adapts, and may
even become part of the program you sent to destory it.  A laugh.

>Anyway, even if you do manage to damage the Nizkor hardware, they can
>just take you to one of the "injustice courts". Since these courts
>"favour minorities", they'll find against you, and make you buy
>replacement hardware. And then they'll put you in jail for the
>rest of your natural life with nothing to eat but bread and water
>so you'll starve.
>
Not in New Zealand I won't.  If I took to Nizkor with an axe, I would agree.

>I think that best solution is for you to be a little more proactive.
>Instead of complaining that people are archiving your nonsense, why
>not try to post less nonsense? Why not post articles that you'd be
>*proud* to see archived under your pseudonym?
>
I have never given a reason why I won't them removed, and your speculation is
only a common theory of PC bigots.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Sat Jan 18 18:19:30 PST 1997
Article: 93470 of alt.revisionism
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: 18 Jan 1997 02:35:00 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <5bq90k$iob@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <5b9l07$sgp@lex.zippo.com> <32D9AC6E.2629@nbnet.nb.ca> <5bci1m$8ts@lex.zippo.com> <5bdjut$4qh@access5.digex.net> <5be3c6$hi0@lex.zippo.com>  <5blvdd$gv8@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca says...
>
>In article <5blvdd$gv8@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>>>I don't have to give a reason why I refuse such permission, and I won't.
>>>
>>>This is irrelevant. The moment you post an article to the Usenet, or more
>>>precisely, the moment it begins to propagate from server to server to
>>>nerwsreader to archive, you lose any legitimate claim to maintain control
>>>over its distribution.
>>>
>>*sigh*
>>
>>If I didn't want I say to appear on newservers around the world I wouldn't say
>>them.  What I reject is McVay's recording and making public what I say.  There
>>is a big difference.  
>
>No there is not. You wrote what you wrote and posted it to a newsserver.
>You made it public. Mr. McVay is simply preventing it from going away. And,
>as I said before, your posting to the usenet is an implicit waiver of your
>ability or power to control the distribution of the article.
>
Rot.  As has been pointed out before, radio stations, even though they 
broadcast publicly, still have authority over their programs.

>[snip]
>
>>>Actually, no, it is your problem, since you are the one doing all the
>>>whining. It strikes me that you are rather embarassed at what you wrote.
>>
>>Er wrong.  If McVay is not interested in removing my files of Nizkor, I
>will not
>>be taking the matter to the injustice courts who favour minorities and those
>>that brown-nose them.  No, I will consider entering Nizkor myself to remove 
>>them.  Since McVay is likely to have them backed up, I will probably have to do
>>something that will do permanent damage, like an AI virus that wears out his
>>hardware.  I have not committed myself to this action as yet.
>
>The court system does not favour minorities, nor does it favour those who
>brown nose. The court system applies the law. Your threats, inane as they
>are, are a criminal act, as would be your breaking into a computer system.
>
No, the courts do favour minorities, and they do favour those that brown-nose
them.  Saying they don't is an act of wilful ignorance.  What threats?  I 
haven't anybody.  Saying that I might enter a computer system is not recognised
as a threat in New Zealand, and therefore it is not a criminal act either.  
Breaking into any computer system for a New Zealander is not a criminal act 
(when in New Zealand.)

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Sun Jan 19 10:55:09 PST 1997
Article: 93536 of alt.revisionism
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame.dan.gannon.nazi.scum,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Contemptuous of trash? Only on my _good_ days.
Date: 17 Jan 1997 11:01:07 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5boi9j$g7n@lex.zippo.com>
References: <32CDAA4A.6414@phoenix.net> <5bf2af$ga7@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5bjq2i$t1t@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <5bk11d$90@lex.zippo.com> <5blhsp$s22@scoop.eco.twg.com> <5blu6h$ge0@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , atticus@mindspring.com says...
>
>In article <5blu6h$ge0@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros wrote:
>
>  :What did Hitler do that was so awful to Germany?  Please bear in mind he   
>  :wanted a war in the East, not the West.  
>
>Then Hitler has to go down in history as the most moronic military
>strategist in history. Signing a non-aggression pact with your eastern
>neighbor and invading your western neighbor is a damned fool way to start a
>war in the East and not in the West.
>
I assume you are referring to France?

France did declare war on Germany you know -- after Hitler invaded Poland.

France and the Soviet Union were homely.

Germany could not allow a possibly dangerous enemy on her Western border to
run around free to cause all sorts of havoc.

Hitler's first big mistake was having two fronts, something he was even against
in his early days.  He might have easily got away with it, however, if he 
didn't declare war on the USA -- the USA was dithering at the time.  Both were,
of course, gambles that didn't pay off.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Mon Jan 20 07:09:14 PST 1997
Article: 93627 of alt.revisionism
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame.dan.gannon.nazi.scum,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Contemptuous of trash? Only on my _good_ days.
Date: 19 Jan 1997 00:55:38 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5bsnia$ho8@lex.zippo.com>
References: <32CDAA4A.6414@phoenix.net> <5bf2af$ga7@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5bjq2i$t1t@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <5bk11d$90@lex.zippo.com> <5blhsp$s22@scoop.eco.twg.com> <5blu6h$ge0@lex.zippo.com>  <5boi9j$g7n@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , atticus@mindspring.com says...
>
>In article <5boi9j$g7n@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>  :In article ,
>atticus@mindspring.com says...
>
>  :>Then Hitler has to go down in history as the most moronic military
>  :>strategist in history. Signing a non-aggression pact with your eastern
>  :>neighbor and invading your western neighbor is a damned fool way to start a
>  :>war in the East and not in the West.
>  :>
>  :I assume you are referring to France?
>
>Only after he got through with the Netherlands and Belgium.
>
Neighbor (sic) is in the singular not the plural.  While Belgiums and the Dutch
may complain, France was the bigger fish, hence my assumption.

>  :France did declare war on Germany you know -- after Hitler invaded Poland.
>
>Hitler knew that would happen -- France and the UK made no secret of it.
>When Hitler invaded Poland, he knew he could quickly end his Eastern
>campaign -- and enter a more protracted war in the West. He didn't count on
>the Brits to hold out as long as they did.
>
>From  all accounts I have seen, Hitler was initially shocked at their 
declaration of war.  I do believe he intended on fighting France, to redeem
Germany's honour for the treaty of Versailles and France's involvement.  As for 
Great Britain, I don't really believe he wanted to smash her up.

>  :France and the Soviet Union were homely.
>
>That's getting kind of personal, isn't it?
>
You may want to examine pre-war (II) politics between the two nations.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Mon Jan 20 07:09:15 PST 1997
Article: 93688 of alt.revisionism
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general
Subject: Re: Ken McVay Order of Brainless Cretans (was New Zealand's Colin McKinstry...)
Date: 19 Jan 1997 18:20:27 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5bukpb$8jp@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com>  <5bq90k$iob@lex.zippo.com>  <5bsf4n$72@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <5btte3$l04@lex.zippo.com> <32e2bc7c.58505670@news.gte.net>
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In article <32e2bc7c.58505670@news.gte.net>, Ask@not.no says...
>
>On 19 Jan 1997 11:41:55 -0800, Pugnandus wrote in alt.revisionism:
>
[snip]

>>The following is illustrative why Ken McVay Order of Brainless Cretans avoids 
>>debating like the plague:  
>
>	Actually he will until he finds himself in a corner.  Then he declares
>the other party not worthy of further debate and sets his twit filter.  
>
Maybe Ken McVay Order of Brainless Cretans finds himself in a corner everytime
he opens his mouth. :-)  It probably has something to do with the position of
his feet and his mouth.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Mon Jan 20 15:41:29 PST 1997
Article: 93759 of alt.revisionism
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Richard Hernandez Asks for Proof that Six Million Were Killed
Date: 19 Jan 1997 22:52:53 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <5bv4o5$kra@lex.zippo.com>
References: <32ce2a0b.2197709@news.intrstar.net> <32DFB2E0.29C5@ix.netcom.com> <32E10D07.6917@mcmaster.ca>  
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com says...
>
>[Followup = alt.revisionism]
>
>crom@eskimo.com (Dana Booth) writes:
>
># the logistics alone of moving, and then murdering over 2500 
># jews, gypsies, and others, each and every day, seven days a
># week, 52 weeks a year, year after year, by a nation already
># involved in a massive war effort, would be staggering, and
># impossible to accomplish.
>
>This is possibly the most stupid "revisionist" argument I have
>ever seen.
>
Ahh, using the "I don't like therefore I will belittle it" argument.

>The odd thing is that all the nazi-boys have no problem accepting
>that Stalin's regime killed more than 10 million people, in about
>the same time (about five years), yet refuse to accept that the
>much more technologically advanced and well-organized Nazi regime
>couldn't kill about half that number in five years.
>
>It's very easy to kill people. It's far easier to kill unarmed
>civilians - including women, children, and the elderly - during
>a war. The Nazis killed millions of armed Soviet soldiers. It
>was far easier for them to kill millions of unarmed civilians.
>
What you say is true for times of internal war on your citizens, but can it be
true for times when you nation is heavily committed to a war on your West, East
borders and in North Africa.  How many men are needed for the mobilisation,
checking and verifying, and eventually slaughtering of so many, checking the
remains for valuables, AND hiding the evidence, when you are engaged in a hefty 
conflict, or is this just a stupid (sic) question you will not answer?

Now, was Stalin butchering his citizens before the war or during the war?

Btw, how did these millions of Soviet soldiers die?  Please bear in mind the
priority of things in your reply.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Mon Jan 20 17:57:26 PST 1997
Article: 56422 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Richard Hernandez Asks for Proof that Six Million Were Killed
Date: 19 Jan 1997 22:52:53 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <5bv4o5$kra@lex.zippo.com>
References: <32ce2a0b.2197709@news.intrstar.net> <32DFB2E0.29C5@ix.netcom.com> <32E10D07.6917@mcmaster.ca>  
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com says...
>
>[Followup = alt.revisionism]
>
>crom@eskimo.com (Dana Booth) writes:
>
># the logistics alone of moving, and then murdering over 2500 
># jews, gypsies, and others, each and every day, seven days a
># week, 52 weeks a year, year after year, by a nation already
># involved in a massive war effort, would be staggering, and
># impossible to accomplish.
>
>This is possibly the most stupid "revisionist" argument I have
>ever seen.
>
Ahh, using the "I don't like therefore I will belittle it" argument.

>The odd thing is that all the nazi-boys have no problem accepting
>that Stalin's regime killed more than 10 million people, in about
>the same time (about five years), yet refuse to accept that the
>much more technologically advanced and well-organized Nazi regime
>couldn't kill about half that number in five years.
>
>It's very easy to kill people. It's far easier to kill unarmed
>civilians - including women, children, and the elderly - during
>a war. The Nazis killed millions of armed Soviet soldiers. It
>was far easier for them to kill millions of unarmed civilians.
>
What you say is true for times of internal war on your citizens, but can it be
true for times when you nation is heavily committed to a war on your West, East
borders and in North Africa.  How many men are needed for the mobilisation,
checking and verifying, and eventually slaughtering of so many, checking the
remains for valuables, AND hiding the evidence, when you are engaged in a hefty 
conflict, or is this just a stupid (sic) question you will not answer?

Now, was Stalin butchering his citizens before the war or during the war?

Btw, how did these millions of Soviet soldiers die?  Please bear in mind the
priority of things in your reply.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 21 09:47:49 PST 1997
Article: 93823 of alt.revisionism
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Richard Hernandez Asks for Proof that Six Million Were Killed
Date: 20 Jan 1997 19:23:21 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <5c1cr9$kpk@lex.zippo.com>
References: <32ce2a0b.2197709@news.intrstar.net>   <5bv4o5$kra@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , dkeren@world.std.com says...
>
>Pugnandus writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com says:
>
>## It's very easy to kill people. It's far easier to kill unarmed
>## civilians - including women, children, and the elderly - during
>## a war. The Nazis killed millions of armed Soviet soldiers. It
>## was far easier for them to kill millions of unarmed civilians.
>
># What you say is true for times of internal war on your citizens,
># but can it be true for times when you nation is heavily committed 
># to a war on your West, East borders and in North Africa.
>
>Can it be true? Yes, it can be true. Hitler thought it was
>important enough, and it was done. And it wasn't very difficult;
>again, the big question is why it was done, not how it was done.
>
This is not an answer.  Even if Hitler thought it important enough, it doesn't
make it happen if you lack the resources to do so.

># How many men are needed for the mobilisation, checking and verifying,
># and eventually slaughtering of so many, checking the remains for 
># valuables, AND hiding the evidence, 
>
>Actually, a relatively small number is needed. Killing all these
>civilians required far less an effort than fighting a war against
>armed soldiers. The gas chambers made it even easier, because one
>person with a few kilograms of Zyklon-B could kill thousands of
>people. The number of armed men needed to guard the victims was
>small, as the victims were unarmed and many of them were women,
>children, and old people. Checking the corpses for valuables and
>burning them? This was done not by the SS-men; they forced 
>prisoners (the so-called "sonderkommando") to do it.
>
We supposedly have answers for two things on the process.  How many more are
needed for the rest?  How many SS-men are needed to check on the so-called
sonderkommando for honesty?  How much of your engineering force is needed to
construct fantastic, never seen before, never repeated again holocaust devices, 
when Germany needed them to build fighting machines (tanks, fighter planes, 
fortress construction, demolitions and so on)?

Why wasn't there young men around?  Where they only shipping the useless for
slave labour?  Your argument doesn't make a lot of sense.

>There were never more than 5,000 SS-men in Auschwitz-Birkenau,
>and this was a peak figure; usually, there were less (2,000
>or so). And this was a relatively high number, because many
>deportees were kept alive as slave labor force, and SS-men
>and women were assigned to guard them. In camps like Treblinka and 
>Belzec there were even fewer SS-men.
>
So how did they keep them from escaping, rioting or whatever?

># Now, was Stalin butchering his citizens before the war or
># during the war?
>
>According to "revisionists", both before and during. But this
>does not help your argument. It's far easier to kill people
>during a war, as the Nazis did, since you already have huge 
>armed forces mobilized and ready at your command. All you have
>to do is set aside a small number and assign the task of killing
>to them.
>
Except of course your armed forces are fighting the external enemy.  Despite
what you may believe, most developed countries have had a standing army for
quite some time.  IOW a non-answer.
>             
># Btw, how did these millions of Soviet soldiers die?  
>
>The Nazis killed them. Unless there's some fascinating new
>"revisionist" theory. Maybe you think that Zundel's
>famous "German UFO's in the South-Pole" killed them all
>with secret death rays?
>
Trust a true believer to be stupid about things. By what (predominate) method 
were these millions of Soviet soldiers killed?

Btw, I am asking you how they died, so please cut the crap about secret death
rays, unless that is part of the true believer diet of Soviet soldier deaths.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 21 09:47:51 PST 1997
Article: 93824 of alt.revisionism
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 20 Jan 1997 17:40:10 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>I somehow doubt this will convince Mr. "Brown" to quote in context.  My
>>experience with this particular individual is that he is incapable of quoting 
>>in context.
>
>My experience with "Stone" the prattling racist is that he is incapable of
>backing up his accusations with facts.
>
Points:

1.  Establish that I prattle.

2.  Define facts in your book -- IOW don't give us a dictionary meaning, give 
us what you really mean by facts.

 2a.  Is citing books, primary sources and Encyclopedias on your list of facts?

3.  Establish that I never back up my accusations from the criteria in 2.
 
 3b. Depending on your reply from 2a., please demonstrate that I never cite
>from  books, primary sources and Encyclopedias.

4.  Please don't divert this topic to rambling nonsense.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 21 11:30:29 PST 1997
Article: 93828 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!iag.net!news.magicnet.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame.dan.gannon.nazi.scum,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Contemptuous of trash? Only on my _good_ days.
Date: 20 Jan 1997 11:41:29 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <5c0hp9$2he@lex.zippo.com>
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In article , atticus@mindspring.com says...
>
>In article <5bsnia$ho8@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>  :In article ,
>atticus@mindspring.com says...
>
>  :From all accounts I have seen, Hitler was initially shocked at their 
>  :declaration of war.
>
>This bolsters my theory that Hitler was an idiot. Prior to the invasion of
>Poland, the French government (secure behind their impregnable Maginot
>line) made it perfectly clear that if Germany went to war with Poland, ehr
>would be at war with France. Maybe Hitler counted on the Allies to back
>down, as they did over the anschluss, the rearmament of the Rhine, or the
>dismemberment of Czechoslovokia; if he was surprised, he was surprised that
>the French put their money where their mouths were. He was certainly
>warned.
>
How did this make him an idiot?

>  :As for Great Britain, I don't really believe he wanted to smash her up.
>
>He had to know that invading France would incur the UK's wrath. He also had
>to know that in the previous World Wars -- The Napoleonic wars and W.W.I --
>Britain and Russia were the last two opposing European powers standing. And
>they won. There are two central lessons of the last 300 years of European
>history -- don't mess with the Brits on the seas or the Russians on land.
>Hitler ignored the lessons of Napoleon and Wilhelm.
>
Hitler was probably counting on the British considering the German stock better
than the French stock -- which, believe it or not, was true.  Do remember that
many people despised the French following WWI.

>  :>  :France and the Soviet Union were homely.
>  :>
>  :>That's getting kind of personal, isn't it?
>  :>
>  :You may want to examine pre-war (II) politics between the two nations.
>
>Pre-war politics have nothing to do with the joke above. "Homely" is a
>close synonym for "ugly." I think the word you were looking for to describe
>the R.F./U.S.S.R. relationship is "cozy."
>
Yes, I should have noticed it was Yankee idiomatic speech.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 21 12:54:55 PST 1997
Article: 93840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!ais.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: 20 Jan 1997 18:31:21 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <5c19pp$imb@lex.zippo.com>
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com says...
>
>In article <5bokbe$hb8@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
Another ignoramus struts his stuff, all references to Mr. McKinstry have been
corrected in the following:

>[Pugnandus's idiocy snipped]
>
Standard belittling tactic.

>> No system is fullproof, and quite simply an AI virus is designed to adapt. 
>
>Pugnandus, please give a detailed description of what an "AI virus" is
>and how it operates. (I could use a laugh or two.) 
>
That is your problem, not mine, though it may occur to you an AI virus is a
virus coded using various AI algorithms.

>> You throw a filtering device or anti-virus type programs at it, it
>adapts, and 
>> may even become part of the program you sent to destroy it.  A laugh.
>
>The laugh, rather, is on Pugnandus, who's technical ignorance on the
>design and programming of computer viruses is self-evident.
>
Uh huh.  You don't know much about (computer) viruses, do you?  It was noticed
several years ago that viruses had been coded to attach themselves to anti-
virus software.  Believe it or not anti-virus and filtering type programs do
have ... files which viruses need (far be it from me to tell you which type of
files they are.)

It is well known that most virus "manufacturers" respect hardware too much to
damage it, but this does not mean that no viruses have been made that affect
hardware, or that it can't be done (quite the opposite.)  Instead of your hard 
drive doing one rotation it starts doing 30.  Unnoticeable to you, but on the 
other hand, since your hard drive is working 30 times more, it will wear out a 
lot quicker.  I am not ignorant in the nature of viruses in the slightest.  
Don't expect me to educate you about them either, if anyone deserves being 
invected by viruses, it is the wilful ignorant to whom you belong.  

Let us pray in hope that Mr. van Alstine's next reply will have some 
intellectual merit.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia




From Pugnandus Tue Jan 21 13:11:51 PST 1997
Article: 56482 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.revolution.american.second,alt.politics.youth,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Question #6 To Proponets Of Multicultural Socities.
Date: 18 Jan 1997 16:59:20 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <5brrl8$1ad@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <5brkaa$7bg@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>
>In article <32E01897.3A0E@provide.net>,
>James Doemer (bigtoe@provide.net) wrote:

[snip]

>: I would agree if such a society were allowed to develope naturally, 
>: attempting to force such a condition through government and laws is 
>: doomed to failure.
>
>    I agree, in the sense that the government can't do as much about
>this problem as we can.  However, the government can take steps to help
>in this- although, any government solution is, in all probability, only
>a temporary solution at best.  On the other hand, it's not likely that
>people are going to realize that prejudice is wrong anytime soon...
>
Feel free smother yourself in seal blood and swim with a white pointer at any 
time.  Afterall, prejudices are wrong, aren't they?

Feel free to wrestle with a dog who has rabies.

Have anal sex with someone who has AIDS.

Put all of your being on a single bet on the roulette table.

Punch a headhunter in Papau New Guinea.

Eat all the flesh from a puffer fish.

Tease a rattle snake with your hand.

Jump out of an aeroplane at 18,000 feet without a parachute.

Stop a stampede by throwing yourself at the leading bovines.

My, how great it is to be free from prejudice.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 16:26:38 PST 1997
Article: 93895 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 20 Jan 1997 22:54:27 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>1.  Establish that I prattle.
>
>> [...deletia...]
>
>>3.  Establish that I never back up my accusations from the criteria in 2.
>> 
>>3b. Depending on your reply from 2a., please demonstrate that I never cite
>>from books, primary sources and Encyclopedias.
>
>   "Anybody can ask for proof."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:53:42 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53rab6$ma8@lex.zippo.com>
>
And how does that statement establish your argument?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 16:26:39 PST 1997
Article: 93909 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Contemptuous of trash? Only on my _good_ days.
Date: 20 Jan 1997 17:30:55 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5c168f$gec@lex.zippo.com>
References: <32CDAA4A.6414@phoenix.net> <5bf2af$ga7@freenet-news.carleton.ca> <5bjq2i$t1t@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <5bk11d$90@lex.zippo.com> <5blhsp$s22@scoop.eco.twg.com> <5blu6h$ge0@lex.zippo.com> <5bo5ji$4pt@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <5bojg8$grm@lex.zippo.com> <32E11B90.429@mcmaster.ca> <5bri81$p1a@lex.zippo.com>  <5brrs4$1k7@lex.zippo.com> <5c0jhd$h6l@gyda.ifi.uio.no>
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In article <5c0jhd$h6l@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>
>> >In article <5bri81$p1a@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>> >>I guess you don't know [what] pugnandus means then?
>
>Are you trying to tell us you're into amateur boxing?
>
No.

Why do you ask such riveting questions?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 16:26:40 PST 1997
Article: 94060 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 21 Jan 1997 22:56:59 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5c4dnr$1s3@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5btv56$1bu@camel1.mindspring.com> <32E286DA.67F7@phoenix.net>  <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net> <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>  <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>  <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>  <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>, "Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" wrote:
>
>>Since your feeble attempt at dismissing failed, would you care to re-address 
>>my original points, or are you going to hide?
>
>  "That view is your opinion.  Do I care about your opinion?"
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 12 Oct 1996 13:50:04 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53p09s$gsq@lex.zippo.com>
>
>  "Please also tell us why we should regard your opinions."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:53:42 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53rab6$ma8@lex.zippo.com>
>
To whom are these newsgroups more aligned with, you or me?

I have also noticed you have refused to answer my questions, so I guess you 
are in evasion mode.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 16:26:41 PST 1997
Article: 94080 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.insinc.net!thor.cal.sfl.net!news.fiberlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!zdc-e!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: 21 Jan 1997 01:05:06 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <5c20s2$343@lex.zippo.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: port1594-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article , mvanalst@rbi.com says...
>
>In article <5c19pp$imb@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>says...
>> >
>> >In article <5bokbe$hb8@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>> >
>> Another ignoramus struts his stuff, all references to Mr. McKinstry have been
>> corrected in the following:
>> 
>> >[Pugnandus's idiocy snipped]
>> >
>> Standard belittling tactic.
>
>Apropos for a Standard Belittled Idiot.
>
Uh huh.  More like incompetence on your behalf.

>> >> No system is fullproof, and quite simply an AI virus is designed to adapt. 
>> >
>> >Pugnandus, please give a detailed description of what an "AI virus" is
>> >and how it operates. (I could use a laugh or two.) 
>> >
>> That is your problem, not mine, though it may occur to you an AI virus is a
>> virus coded using various AI algorithms.
>
>Uh huh. More like you parrot a pseudo-buzzwords like "AI virus" without
>the slightest clue as to what such mean. (If anything.)  But don't let
>such minor details as your ignorance stop you, Pugnandus! _Do_ tell us
>which " AI algorithms," exactly, are used? 
>
Why?

I have studied both (AI and viruses), why should be the least bit concerned with
your ramblings?

As for which AI algorithms, it would depend on the maker, but I guess such
logic defies you.  There are several different learning algorithms available.

>(I'd help you out on this one, but I'm having too much fun watching you
>poke yourself in the eye with a stick.) 
>
Uh huh.  

>> >> You throw a filtering device or anti-virus type programs at it, it
>> >adapts, and 
>> >> may even become part of the program you sent to destroy it.  A laugh.
>> >
>> >The laugh, rather, is on Pugnandus, who's technical ignorance on the
>> >design and programming of computer viruses is self-evident.
>> >
>> Uh huh.  You don't know much about (computer) viruses, do you?  It was noticed
>> several years ago that viruses had been coded to attach themselves to anti-
>> virus software.  
>
>Note the "viruses had been coded." Hardly "AI." LOL!
>
*sigh*

Do keep up with the play.  Are you implying that you thought I meant every
virus is programmed with artificial intelligence?

>> Believe it or not anti-virus and filtering type programs do have ... files 
>> which viruses need (far be it from me to tell you which type of files they 
>> are.)
>
>Again, hardly "AI." 
>
So what?

An example is an example, pity you couldn't fathom that one out either.

>> It is well known that most virus "manufacturers" respect hardware too much to
>> damage it...
>
>Actually, it has been my observation that virus writers are, in general,
>simply a bunch of digital terrorists with no more concern for the hardware
>than they have for results of their efforts. That they can't damge
>hardware is more an intrinsic property of the hardware than their lack of
>ethincs. 
>
Whatever.  Hardware can still be damaged, despite your protesting otherwise.

>Kind of like Holocaust deniers in an odd way: The fact that deniers can't
>damage the veracity of the Holocaust is simply a result of the robustness
>of the historical record and not the lack of ethics commonly displayed by
>deniers.
>
More like an overactive PR program, like the media, is used to keep the myth
alive.

>Perhaps the two have a "bad meme" or two in common? What a thought. 
>
More likely your analogies reflect your higher thoughts -- none.

[irrelevant question snipped]

>> Instead of your hard  drive doing one rotation it starts doing 30.  
>
>Platter speed is always constant. 
>
*sigh*

[van Alstine's boasting snipped]

>> I am not ignorant in the  nature of viruses in the slightest.  
>
[Three more irrelevant questions snipped]

>> Don't expect me to educate you about them either...
>
>Heaven forbid! It would be like being "educated" in table manners by a pig.
>
Seems you have already mastered a pig's table manners without a pig being
present.

>> ...if anyone deserves being invected by viruses, it is the wilful ignorant to 
>> whom you belong. 
>
>Really? And _whom_ do _I_ "belong" to? (I can't wait to tell my co-workers
>they are "ignorant!" Between the ten of us we have a Ph.D, a couple of
>Masters, and of course, quite a few B.S. degrees. Not to mention,
>collectively, about a hundred years' work experiance in the computer
>industry in the Valley.) 
>
>But I digress. 
>
Ooh!  I am so intimidated.

I apologize for treating you like the loser you portray yourself to be.
 
>> Let us pray in hope that Mr. van Alstine's next reply will have some 
>> intellectual merit.
>
>Actually, let us hope Pugnandus comes to his whatever senses he has
>left before he wets himself. 
>
Do tell.  And please stop asking irrelevant questions.

I will take back my comment that you are a complete ignoramus on (computer)
viruses though.

Btw, either stop calling me Mr. McKinstry or back up your assertion.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 16:26:42 PST 1997
Article: 94094 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!ais.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 22 Jan 1997 14:48:21 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <5c65fl$gmv@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5btv56$1bu@camel1.mindspring.com> <32E286DA.67F7@phoenix.net>  <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net> <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>  <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>  <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>  <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>  <5c4dnr$1s3@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c4dnr$1s3@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>>>
>>>In article <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>, "Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" wrote:
>>>
>>>>Since your feeble attempt at dismissing failed, would you care to re-address 
>>>>my original points, or are you going to hide?
>>>
>>>  "That view is your opinion.  Do I care about your opinion?"
>>>
>>>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>>>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>>>              -- Date: 12 Oct 1996 13:50:04 -0700
>>>              -- Message-ID: <53p09s$gsq@lex.zippo.com>
>>>
>>>  "Please also tell us why we should regard your opinions."
>>>
>>>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>>>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>>>              -- Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:53:42 -0700
>>>              -- Message-ID: <53rab6$ma8@lex.zippo.com>
>>>
>>To whom are these newsgroups more aligned with, you or me?
>
>   "This is extremely relevant to the discussion.  Thank you for your 
>    incredibly preceptive comments."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 7 Oct 1996 23:04:39 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53cqtn$6pd@lex.zippo.com>
>
>>I have also noticed you have refused to answer my questions, so I guess you 
>>are in evasion mode.
>
>   "Considering the content of your posts of late, ...it is
>    highly ironical that you dare mention me evading and using
>    irrelevancies as I was only responding in kind.  It is not
>    surprising that you failed to perceive this once more."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Another tactic of liberals
>              -- Date: 11 Nov 1996 00:53:38 -0800
>              -- Message-ID: <566pii$gr2@lex.zippo.com>
>
Yet another desperate attempt by "Brown" in trying to be clever.

We are not amused.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 16:26:43 PST 1997
Article: 94142 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 21 Jan 1997 11:37:29 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5btv56$1bu@camel1.mindspring.com> <32E286DA.67F7@phoenix.net>  <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net> <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>  <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>  <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:44643 alt.revisionism:94142 alt.politics.white-power:56675

In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>>>
>>>In article <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>>>
>>>>1.  Establish that I prattle.
>>>
>>>> [...deletia...]
>>>
>>>>3.  Establish that I never back up my accusations from the criteria in 2.
>>>> 
>>>>3b. Depending on your reply from 2a., please demonstrate that I never cite
>>>>from books, primary sources and Encyclopedias.
>>>
>>>   "Anybody can ask for proof."
>>>
>>>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>>>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>>>              -- Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:53:42 -0700
>>>              -- Message-ID: <53rab6$ma8@lex.zippo.com>
>>>
>>And how does that statement establish your argument?
>
>It doesn't. But since it was good enough for
>"Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" to use to dismiss someone else's request
>for evidence a few months ago, it ought to be good enough for him now.
>
Perhaps you would be good enough to quote in context next time?

I do recall I said it to Mr. Ledgister when he asked an inane question 
concerning my right to ask for proof.

Since your feeble attempt at dismissing failed, would you care to re-address 
my original points, or are you going to hide?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia

 


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 16:26:43 PST 1997
Article: 94152 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!xfer.kren.nm.kr!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!ames!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: 21 Jan 1997 14:57:25 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <5c3hkl$e62@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5b4r43$43u@lex.zippo.com> <5be3c6$hi0@lex.zippo.com>  <5blvdd$gv8@lex.zippo.com> <5bohnf$rq5@scoop.eco.twg.com> <5bokbe$hb8@lex.zippo.com> <10d_9701211531@tor250.org>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1702-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article <10d_9701211531@tor250.org>, alec@gryn.org says...
>
><*[*] [*] [Pugnandus] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay] [17 Jan 97 14:36][*][0]*>
>
[Liberal silliness snipped]

>Your knowledge of how viruses work and how to program them is nil.
>
Uh huh.  Both you and van Alstine both seemed have confused what I wrote.  I
fail to see what I wrote proves my ignorance of them.  It seems van Alstine
thinks I mean all viruses are AI, which is a fabrication of his own small 
world, and you seem to have carried the same idea through.  I was only talking
about a small subset of viruses, a concept that seems to have eluded the both
of you.

Viruses try and attach/append themselves to your whole system's executable 
files.  Coding a virus with a learning algorithm isn't that difficult you know.

[Even more liberal silliness snipped]

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 16:26:44 PST 1997
Article: 94232 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!ais.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 22 Jan 1997 21:46:23 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <5c6tvf$2hk@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5btv56$1bu@camel1.mindspring.com> <32E286DA.67F7@phoenix.net>  <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net> <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>  <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>  <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>  <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>  <5c4dnr$1s3@lex.zippo.com>  <5c65fl$gmv@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c65fl$gmv@lex.zippo.com>, "Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" wrote:
>
>>Yet another desperate attempt by "Brown" in trying to be clever.
>
>  "That view is your opinion.  Do I care about your opinion?"
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 12 Oct 1996 13:50:04 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53p09s$gsq@lex.zippo.com>
>
>>We are not amused.
>
>   "Tough biccies."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 20 Oct 1996 22:44:40 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <54f2k8$787@lex.zippo.com>
>
I must say I am quite flattered that you think my arguments are better than
yours.  It doesn't say much your own personal argumentation style, does it?

Please stop being a poor parrot.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia




From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:18 PST 1997
Article: 56505 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 20 Jan 1997 22:54:27 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5btv56$1bu@camel1.mindspring.com> <32E286DA.67F7@phoenix.net>  <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net> <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>  <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>1.  Establish that I prattle.
>
>> [...deletia...]
>
>>3.  Establish that I never back up my accusations from the criteria in 2.
>> 
>>3b. Depending on your reply from 2a., please demonstrate that I never cite
>>from books, primary sources and Encyclopedias.
>
>   "Anybody can ask for proof."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:53:42 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53rab6$ma8@lex.zippo.com>
>
And how does that statement establish your argument?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:20 PST 1997
Article: 56628 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 21 Jan 1997 22:56:59 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5c4dnr$1s3@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5btv56$1bu@camel1.mindspring.com> <32E286DA.67F7@phoenix.net>  <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net> <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>  <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>  <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>  <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:56628 alt.politics.nationalism.white:44585 alt.revisionism:94060

In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>, "Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" wrote:
>
>>Since your feeble attempt at dismissing failed, would you care to re-address 
>>my original points, or are you going to hide?
>
>  "That view is your opinion.  Do I care about your opinion?"
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 12 Oct 1996 13:50:04 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53p09s$gsq@lex.zippo.com>
>
>  "Please also tell us why we should regard your opinions."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:53:42 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53rab6$ma8@lex.zippo.com>
>
To whom are these newsgroups more aligned with, you or me?

I have also noticed you have refused to answer my questions, so I guess you 
are in evasion mode.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:21 PST 1997
Article: 56640 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!ais.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 22 Jan 1997 14:48:21 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <5c65fl$gmv@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5btv56$1bu@camel1.mindspring.com> <32E286DA.67F7@phoenix.net>  <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net> <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>  <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>  <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>  <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>  <5c4dnr$1s3@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c4dnr$1s3@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>>>
>>>In article <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>, "Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" wrote:
>>>
>>>>Since your feeble attempt at dismissing failed, would you care to re-address 
>>>>my original points, or are you going to hide?
>>>
>>>  "That view is your opinion.  Do I care about your opinion?"
>>>
>>>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>>>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>>>              -- Date: 12 Oct 1996 13:50:04 -0700
>>>              -- Message-ID: <53p09s$gsq@lex.zippo.com>
>>>
>>>  "Please also tell us why we should regard your opinions."
>>>
>>>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>>>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>>>              -- Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:53:42 -0700
>>>              -- Message-ID: <53rab6$ma8@lex.zippo.com>
>>>
>>To whom are these newsgroups more aligned with, you or me?
>
>   "This is extremely relevant to the discussion.  Thank you for your 
>    incredibly preceptive comments."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 7 Oct 1996 23:04:39 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53cqtn$6pd@lex.zippo.com>
>
>>I have also noticed you have refused to answer my questions, so I guess you 
>>are in evasion mode.
>
>   "Considering the content of your posts of late, ...it is
>    highly ironical that you dare mention me evading and using
>    irrelevancies as I was only responding in kind.  It is not
>    surprising that you failed to perceive this once more."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Another tactic of liberals
>              -- Date: 11 Nov 1996 00:53:38 -0800
>              -- Message-ID: <566pii$gr2@lex.zippo.com>
>
Yet another desperate attempt by "Brown" in trying to be clever.

We are not amused.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:22 PST 1997
Article: 56642 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton: a male bimbo?
Date: 22 Jan 1997 11:42:30 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 52
Message-ID: <5c5qj6$9ks@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5c3tea$lov@lex.zippo.com>  <5c4ev6$2ju@lex.zippo.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1685-auck.ihug.co.nz
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:56642 alt.politics.clinton:356373

In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c4ev6$2ju@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>>>
>>>In article <5c3tea$lov@lex.zippo.com>, "Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" wrote:
>>>
>>>>Do Yankees really want to follow this man?
>>>>
>>>>In his inaugural speech, the bimbo stated that one of America's great 
>>>>achievements was to (first) split the atom.  What a crook!
>>>
>>>Er, no. What Mr. Clinton said was:
>>>
>>>   "Along the way, Americans produced a great middle class and security in 
>>>    old age; built unrivaled centers of learning and opened public schools 
>>>    to all; split the atom and explored the heavens; invented the computer 
>>>    and the microchip; and deepened the wellspring of justice by making a 
>>>    revolution in civil rights for African Americans and all minorities, and 
>>>    extending the circle of citizenship, opportunity and dignity to women."
>>>
>>>                   -- http://www.whitehouse.gov/WH/html/1997-01-20.html
>>>
>>>Not once does "first" appear in that paragraph.
>>>
>>>What's surprising is not that prattling racists lie; it's that their lies
>>>are so utterly clumsy and transparent.
>>>
>>The implication is that America was first, otherwise he would have chosen 
>>different words -- furthered, and synonyms of furthered. 
>
>The fact is that "Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" made a claim that turns
>out to be false. That fact is that prattling racists do lie. 
>
>Or, as he himself put it so succinctly:
>
>   "IOW you are incompetent, but can't admit you are wrong."
>
>              -- From:Pugnandus (was "Ourobouros")
>              -- Subject: Re: Al comecola le falta el mando de su idioma natal
>              -- Date: 21 Jan 1997 12:29:14 -0800
>              -- Message-ID: <5c38uq$950@lex.zippo.com>
>
Ahh, back to your old tactic of clipping out parts of my post so you can 
pretend to be intelligent again.

I can't be bothered travelling down this path again, so for any onlookers, read
the clipped post before "Brown" got hold of it.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:23 PST 1997
Article: 56648 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton: a male bimbo?
Date: 22 Jan 1997 14:55:23 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <5c65sr$gqh@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5c3tea$lov@lex.zippo.com>  <5c4ev6$2ju@lex.zippo.com>  <5c5qj6$9ks@lex.zippo.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1670-auck.ihug.co.nz
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:56648 alt.politics.clinton:356388

In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c5qj6$9ks@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>Ahh, back to your old tactic of clipping out parts of my post so you can 
>>pretend to be intelligent again.
>>
>>I can't be bothered travelling down this path again, so for any onlookers, read
>>the clipped post before "Brown" got hold of it.
>
>   'Ahh, using the "I don't like therefore I will belittle it" argument.'
>
>                        -- From: Pugnandus
>                        -- Subject: Re: Richard Hernandez Asks for 
>                                    Proof that Six Million Were Killed
>                        -- Date: 19 Jan 1997 22:52:53 -0800
>                        -- Message-ID: <5bv4o5$kra@lex.zippo.com>
>
Substantiate your claim.

It has been duly noted that you have diverted the topic again.

As a note to onlookers, please examine the earlier posts in this thread, and
compare them with "Brown's" replies.  Do you consider them to be a logical
consequence, or someone being an arsehole, because someone dares challenge his 
god/hero?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:24 PST 1997
Article: 56675 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 21 Jan 1997 11:37:29 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <5c35tp$7jt@lex.zippo.com>
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c1p73$s69@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>>>
>>>In article <5c16pq$gjv@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>>>
>>>>1.  Establish that I prattle.
>>>
>>>> [...deletia...]
>>>
>>>>3.  Establish that I never back up my accusations from the criteria in 2.
>>>> 
>>>>3b. Depending on your reply from 2a., please demonstrate that I never cite
>>>>from books, primary sources and Encyclopedias.
>>>
>>>   "Anybody can ask for proof."
>>>
>>>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>>>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>>>              -- Date: 13 Oct 1996 10:53:42 -0700
>>>              -- Message-ID: <53rab6$ma8@lex.zippo.com>
>>>
>>And how does that statement establish your argument?
>
>It doesn't. But since it was good enough for
>"Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" to use to dismiss someone else's request
>for evidence a few months ago, it ought to be good enough for him now.
>
Perhaps you would be good enough to quote in context next time?

I do recall I said it to Mr. Ledgister when he asked an inane question 
concerning my right to ask for proof.

Since your feeble attempt at dismissing failed, would you care to re-address 
my original points, or are you going to hide?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia

 


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:25 PST 1997
Article: 56697 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.usa
Subject: Re: Bill Clinton: a male bimbo?
Date: 23 Jan 1997 02:19:55 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 62
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c65sr$gqh@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>>In article ,
>jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>>>
>>>In article <5c5qj6$9ks@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ahh, back to your old tactic of clipping out parts of my post so you can 
>>>>pretend to be intelligent again.
>>>>
>>>>I can't be bothered travelling down this path again, so for any
>onlookers, read
>>>>the clipped post before "Brown" got hold of it.
>>>
>>>   'Ahh, using the "I don't like therefore I will belittle it" argument.'
>>>
>>>                        -- From: Pugnandus
>>>                        -- Subject: Re: Richard Hernandez Asks for 
>>>                                    Proof that Six Million Were Killed
>>>                        -- Date: 19 Jan 1997 22:52:53 -0800
>>>                        -- Message-ID: <5bv4o5$kra@lex.zippo.com>
>>>
>>Substantiate your claim.
>
>   "I am painting the picture as I see it."
>
>                   -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>                   -- Subject: Re: Unchanging Polynesians ("Finsten") -- repost
>                   -- Date: 20 Oct 1996 22:30:03 -0700
>                   -- Message-ID: <54f1or$6q0@lex.zippo.com>
>
>>It has been duly noted that you have diverted the topic again.
>
>   "I have said all I am going to say on the matter for now.  If
>    your comprehensions skills were lacking because of your
>    vacant mind, then it is no problem of mine."
>
>                   -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>                   -- Subject: Re: White MEN created everything
>                   -- Date: 22 Oct 1996 13:49:53 -0700
>                   -- Message-ID: <54jc1h$ikt@lex.zippo.com>
>
>>As a note to onlookers, please examine the earlier posts in this thread, and
>>compare them with "Brown's" replies.  Do you consider them to be a logical
>>consequence, or someone being an arsehole, because someone dares challenge his 
>>god/hero?
>
>   "Uh huh. Belittling mode again I see, or should I say ad hominem attack?"
>
>                   -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>                   -- Subject: Re: Unchanging Polynesians ("Finsten") -- repost
>                   -- Date: 20 Oct 1996 22:30:03 -0700
>                   -- Message-ID: <54f1or$6q0@lex.zippo.com>
>
Back to quoting out of context again, "Brown"?

If you weren't interested in adding anything worthwhile to the discussion, why
did you bother replying at all?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:26 PST 1997
Article: 56710 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!demos!news.stealth.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!node2.frontiernet.net!usenet.logical.net!iag.net!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: White folks too dumb for freedom of religion. Was Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: 18 Jan 1997 02:14:38 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <5bq7qe$i2g@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <5bp4ef$kc1@decaxp.harvard.edu>, post@dpacker.student.harvard.edu says...
>
>Ourobouros wrote:
>
>: And what's this about only being right on a few things?!?  I'm right on
>: most things.
>
>No, you only think you are.  We all do, of course, or we would change our
>minds.
>
Amusing.  This is more or less what I would have said.  You must be Colin
McKinstry as well (ask Laura Finsten for details.)

Conversely, you only think you are right as well.  

>
>Actually that's so far from true it's depressing.  People are so stubborn.
>Open those minds in the morning!  Come on kids.
>
Some people are stubborn, others know what is right and what is wrong.  Some
people rely upon the establishment for the truth, even if it defies logic.

[editing]

>Anyway, I see we still haven't settled the old multiculturalism issue.
>Someday, Usenet will manage to solve the problem!  You all know it's true.

The multi-cultural issue was resolved many months ago.  My opponents could not
come up with why multi-culturalism is good or that it can work.  

Usenet will not solve the problem, as it rarely affects the world outside.

>But I digress.  Personally I'm not a proponent of moving people around and
>having them live together for its own sake.  Culture clash, y'know.
>Nothing to do with superiority or inferiority or any of that nonsense, but
>different groups think differently and if you put one in charge of they
>other everyone gets all paranoid.
>
Ah yes, but you think more logically than the rest of my opponents.

>But in the case of the US, we're all here and I figure there's no good
>reason we can't make the best of it.  I'm all for cultural exchange and
>mutual understanding between cultures that are going to have to deal with
>each other anyway, and I don't see how any reasonable person could object
>to that.  Separatism is so silly.
>
Why is separation silly?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Thu Jan 23 17:27:27 PST 1997
Article: 56732 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 22 Jan 1997 21:46:23 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
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In article , jeff_brown@pol.com says...
>
>In article <5c65fl$gmv@lex.zippo.com>, "Pugnandus"/"Ourobouros"/"Stone" wrote:
>
>>Yet another desperate attempt by "Brown" in trying to be clever.
>
>  "That view is your opinion.  Do I care about your opinion?"
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 12 Oct 1996 13:50:04 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <53p09s$gsq@lex.zippo.com>
>
>>We are not amused.
>
>   "Tough biccies."
>
>              -- From: Ourobouros (now "Pugnandus")
>              -- Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
>              -- Date: 20 Oct 1996 22:44:40 -0700
>              -- Message-ID: <54f2k8$787@lex.zippo.com>
>
I must say I am quite flattered that you think my arguments are better than
yours.  It doesn't say much your own personal argumentation style, does it?

Please stop being a poor parrot.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia




From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 07:25:31 PST 1997
Article: 94343 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.flame.dan.gannon.nazi.scum,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Contemptuous of trash? Only on my _good_ days.
Date: 20 Jan 1997 22:51:25 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 49
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In article , atticus@mindspring.com says...
>
>In article <5c0hp9$2he@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>[France's pledge to back Poland; Hitler surprised]
>
>  :How did this make him an idiot?
>
>Being surprised by something that is widely and vehemently advertised in
>advance is not a sign of great tactical skill.
>
There is no reason to suggest that Hitler could not keep pushing both France
and Great Britain.  Afterall, Danzig was a German city.

>[the Brits]
>
>  :Hitler was probably counting on the British considering the German stock
>  :better than the French stock -- which, believe it or not, was true.  Do
>  :remember that many people despised the French following WWI.
>
>By "stock," I assume you mean ancestry. Again, if Hitler expected the U.K.
>to line up beside Germany out of racial solidarity, he ignored two
>important facts -- one, that the U.K. was pledged to defend France, as it
>had done in W.W.I; and two, that the British people are, racially, as much
>French as Germanic (1066, and all that).
>
There was no formal pledge towards France, review the Anglo-American 
guarantees, and the aftermath.

The Normans were Scandinavians who spoke a French language.

>If that's what your saying, then Hitler's dependence on racial solidarity
>is another sign that he was a weak tactician. He was so blinded by his
>ideology that he could not consider the realpolitik at play. And in
>discounting France's pledges to Poland and Britain's to France, he assumed
>that every nation made and dissolved alliances as readily as he did.

I was trying not to suggest that Hitler depended on racial solidarity, but
rather the prevailing mood of that era.  Britain considered Germanic stock
better than Latin stock.  Germany was of Germanic stock, France was viewed as
Latin stock.

As for alliances; that is a subject of diplomacy, and you need to read "The
Prince" by Machiavelli to understand that.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia





From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 07:37:26 PST 1997
Article: 56767 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: White folks too dumb for freedom of religion. Was Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: 19 Jan 1997 11:17:56 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 89
Message-ID: <5bts14$ka9@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <32E257DB.2EA4@mcmaster.ca>, Laura says...
>
>Pugnandus wrote:
>  
>> In article <32E101B3.BCF@mcmaster.ca>, Laura says...
> 
>> >Ourobouros wrote:
>
>[...] 
>
>> The architects (in the loose sense of the word) are remembered, and are there-
>> fore credited.  Those who use shovels are not.  That is realism.  Those who
>> have the most impact on society are those at the top, those at the bottom are
>> forgotten.  That is realism.
>
>That is "realism" as it is constructed from a particular ideological
>perspective.  The architects, so to speak, wouldn't be remembered at
>all, if there weren't any labourers to transform their scribblings on
>paper (blueprints) into concrete constructions that people could see and
>use.
>
That is irrelevant.  Btw, architects are usually the ones responsible for
producing blueprints.
 
>[...]
>
>> Since you live in a fairyworld it doesn't suprise me that you couldn't
>> understand this either.  Things that a rare are treasured, common items are
>> not treasured.  This includes labour.  That is realism.

>Generally speaking this is true, but it isn't precisely true.  Cortes
>(like a good 16th century European) sought gold, since it was valued
>above all else.  But the Aztecs valued quetzal feathers more than gold. 
>So it isn't merely a matter of scarcity, but also of the values that
>cultures put on particular materials or objects.
>
I was generalising.
>
>[...]
>
>> Two cultures that are similar easily adapt to the other.
>
>This must explain why Quebec is so happily a part of Canada.
>
Unless their patriotism gets in the way.
 
>> >[...]
> 
>> >> >> It was British culture that became the dominant culture.  BTW, the Scots
>> >> >> consider themselves British, but not English.
> 
>> >> >Not according to my mother (who is an emigre from Scotland), my cousins
>> >> >(who are Scots living in Scotland), or Sean Connery who is perhaps the
>> >> >best-known spokesman for the Scottish separtatist movement.
> 
>> >> Well I'm a Scot.  I consider myself British, but I certainly don't consider
>> >> myself English.  Britain refers to the whole island, not to England.
> 
>> >Oh really?  How many years did you live in Scotland before moving to New
>> >Zealand?
> 
>> That is none of your business.
>
>Let's be more specific then, Pugnubourin.  You are a Scot, yet you are
>totally unfamiliar with the growing movement in Scotland for secession
>from the United Kingdom?
>
Secession from England.  They want their own parliament, etc.   If Scotland
gains her independence then the United Kingdom will fall -- she wouldn't be
united, would she?

>[...]
>
>> Give me shit, and I give it back.  I thought there was an ulterior motive to
>> calling me Colin.  It means little dog, therefore I am returning the
>> compliment, Lassie.  Afterall, you are such a good little bitch to the
>> establishment.
>
>Come now, Colin.  Asking you questions is perfectly legitimate.  And
>even you know that the word you have chosen to describe me has quite a
>different set of connotations.  But do demonstrate for all of us what a
>manly White man you are, and how you lose your cool completely when
>people figure out who is hiding behind your series of mythical
>pseudonyms.  Most amusing.

You have decided to insult me, so I insult you back, Lassie.  Who am I behind
my pseudonyms?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 07:37:28 PST 1997
Article: 56769 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!feeder.chicago.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Al comecola le falta el mando de su idioma natal
Date: 21 Jan 1997 17:37:46 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 116
Message-ID: <5c3r1a$k49@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <5c2n89$79g@news1.ucsd.edu>, fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu says...
>
>Ourobouros wrote:
>: In article <853331730.6485@dejanews.com>, f.ledgis@msuacad.morehead-st.edu says...

[snip]

[Official religion]

>: >I suggest you provide a definition instead of ducking.
>: >
>: Er no, I'll leave that up to you.
>
>
>Congratulations. You've now clearly established that you don't know
>what you're talking about. If you state that Canada and the US have
>official religions, your obligation is to know what the words you
>use mean.
>
>Clearly you don't.
>
I suggest you read a reply I gave to Lassie concerning official religions.  Why
I should have to state the obvious is beyond me.

[The central point of the Church of England]

>: >> The central point of the Church of England is the monarch, who is head of
>: >> the Church.
>: >
>: >Er, no.
>: >
>: Who else is the central point of the Church of England?  The ArchBishop of
>: Canterbury?
>
>A point has to be a person? Wow! 

?

[Timeline for the name Anglican (unanswered by Ledgister) snipped]

[Religious tolerance, closing of temples, and schools]

>: >> Schools tended to be associated with temples.  Don't you know anything?
>: >
>: >The philosophical schools of Athens weren't.
>: >
>: Are you talking about the Sophists?
>
>
>Only in the sense that 'sophistes' was the general term for teachers
>of rhetoric and philosophy.
>
Not really.  They were the standard teachers of rhetoric and philosophy in
Greece, especially Athens, but there was an important difference between them 
and a typical school.  Do you know what that was (and I am not talking about
philosophy)?

>
>: >> 
>: >> >: Please be sure to understand what Theodosius authorised and what various
>: >> >: people (Christians) actually did.
>: >> >
>: >> >: >: For the brief flare of Kingdom of Sicily in the 12th century, the 
>: >official 
>: >> >: >: religion was Roman Catholicism, but religious freedom was granted to 
>: >> >: >: Muslims -- btw, Sicily is your only successful multi-cultural state (for 
>: >> >: >: about 50 years anyway, before it became another nothing state.)
>: >> >: >
>: >> >: >Really? I would have thought that the Emirate (and Caliphate) of
>: >> >: >Co'rdoba qualified, not to mention dozens of other political
>: >> >: >entities throughout recent history. (BTW, there were no states
>: >> >: >before the 16th century -- not in Europe and the Mediterranean at
>: >> >: >any rate.)
>: >> >
>: >> >: There were states before the 16th century, despite your protest that there
>: >> >: weren't.  You had the Papal states for example.  I think the word you are
>: >> >: scrabbling for is "nation."
>: >> >
>: >> >No. The state is  a clearly defined entity (and the 'States of the
>: >> >Church' didn't fit that definition -- far too decentralised), so is
>: >> >the nation (and the one is not necessarily connected to the other).
>: >
>: >I notice you ducked responding to this.
>: >
>: I have already explained my position, I couldn't be bothered responding to your
>: feeble attempt to regain your posture.
>
>My posture's fine. It is clear that you don't know what a state is.
>: I am afraid that a decentralised State is still a State.  
>
>
>What's a state?
>
The government; territory, political, and form (kingdom, aristocracy, oligarchy,
etc.) A sovereign (political) community governing over a certain territory.

>: >> >: Explain how Co'rdoba (in Spain) grew multi-culturally.
>: >> >
>: >> >I suggest you consult some histories.
>: >> >
>: >> I have examined Spanish history before, including Co'rdoba, and fail to see 
>: >> how it grew multiculturally.  Please prove that Co'rdoba grew
>: >> multiculturally.
>: >
>: >The richness of its literature would seem to be enough. (Though it is
>: >quite clear that would be opaque to you.)
>: >
>: Examples?
>
>Sugiero que tu lees el _Romancero General_ en la lengua original.
>
Its English equivalent?

[snip]

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 09:55:07 PST 1997
Article: 56808 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Artless Dodger or Don't Call Me Twinkletoes
Date: 19 Jan 1997 13:49:12 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <5bu4so$qna@lex.zippo.com>
References:  <5ap2lm$dcl@lex.zippo.com> <852626912snz@augur.demon.co.uk> <5aun01$iem@lex.zippo.com> <5b0vq8$j15@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5b204f$21h@lex.zippo.com> <5b36l0$es@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5b3orj$ekh@lex.zippo.com> <5b5g6q$q9t@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b625f$7g9@lex.zippo.com> <5bb5hi$cm4@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5bbhdk$ifj@lex.zippo.com> <5bdm68$hbl@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5beng0$kk@lex.zippo.com>  <5bh9tu$sid@lex.zippo.com> <32DE95C0.3B2E@mcmaster.ca> <5bogli$eq6@lex.zippo.com> <32E0FE63.7501@mcmaster.ca> <5brgq6$o45@lex.zippo.com> <32E26463.3BFE@mcmaster.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1707-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article <32E26463.3BFE@mcmaster.ca>, Laura says...
>
>Pugnandus wrote:
>> 
>> In article <32E0FE63.7501@mcmaster.ca>, Laura says...
> 
>> >Ourobouros wrote:
>> >^^^^^^^^^^
>
>[...]
>
>> >> Anyway, how do I sound just like Colin McKinstry?
> 
>> >You should see a doctor about your memory.  I already explained that.
>  
>> Your explanation was full of holes.  Could you provide a far more thorough and
>> less flimsy explanation, Lassie?
>
>So you say, but you haven't said anything to convince me that the
>similarities are the result of mere chance (and a piss-poor educational
>system in New Zealand), Pugnabouro. I know some New Zealanders who are
>very articulate in the written word, so that can't be it.
>
Perhaps you would like to elaborate on "our" piss-poor style of English.  I
know you love to say that I have poor English skills, but your proof is 
somewhat lacking.  Let us examine your research.

Btw, we do have a piss-poor educational system in New Zealand.  Your friends
most probably received private tutoring, whether from their parents or an 
outside source.  Either that or they are of pensioner age.

I would prefer it if you did not hybridise my pseudonym, Lassie.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia





 



From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 14:54:25 PST 1997
Article: 94369 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nol.net!ais.net!news.texas.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Richard Hernandez Asks for Proof that Six Million Were Killed
Date: 24 Jan 1997 02:12:58 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 171
Message-ID: <5ca1va$f8i@lex.zippo.com>
References: <32ce2a0b.2197709@news.intrstar.net> <5bv4o5$kra@lex.zippo.com>  <5c1cr9$kpk@lex.zippo.com>  <5c4gte$3kt@lex.zippo.com> 
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com says...
>
>In article <5c4gte$3kt@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>> In article , dkeren@world.std.com says...
>> >
>> >Pugnandus writes:
>> >
>> ># We supposedly have answers for two things on the process. 
>> ># How many more are needed for the rest?  How many SS-men are
>> ># needed to check on the so-called sonderkommando for honesty?
>> >
>> >I have already told you that there were never more than a few
>> >thousand SS-men in Auschwitz; usually, 2,000 or so. In other
>> >camps, there were less.
>> >
>> I SAID, how many SS-men or whatever are needed to check the so-called sonder-
>> kommando for honesty?  If you are going to claim fantastic numbers then you
>> also need to prove the feasible number of SS-men were able to do what you say
>> they can.
>
>There were evidently only a handful of SS men in the Kremas who commanded
>the Sonderkommandos. The SS men were armed and quite willing to deal out
>summary execution and brutal coproral punishment to any Sonderkommando who
>disobeyed them. Furthermore, lest we forget, the Krema compounds
>themselves were surrounded by electrified fences and heaviily armed
>watchtowers etc.
>
How many SS men are needed to keep the Sonderkommandos honest?

Having electrical fences and heavily armed watchtowers does not necessarily
make men honest.

>> ># How much of your engineering force is needed to construct 
>> ># fantastic, never seen before, never repeated again holocaust
>> ># devices,
>> >
>> >"fantastic, never seen before"? What nonsense.
>> >
>> Oh?
>> 
>> Cremetoriums that burn a fantastic number of bodies, the equipment needed to
>> pump out the cynanide gas, and etc.  Someone has to design that you know, and
>> usually you need people with techical know-how to build them.
>
>Indeed. Topf & Sons built them. Besides building the incineration furnaces
>and ventilation systems of tye Kremas for the SS, Topf was aslo well known
>in Germany for building industrial blast furnaces. Does Mr. McKinstry
>claim that building incineration furnaces and ventilation systems was
>_more_ difficult than building industrial blast furnaces? 
>
I, Pugnandus, would say designing and building these magic cremetoriums is
more difficult.

What are your reasons for giving me a name that is not mine (re: Mr. McKinstry)?

>> ># when Germany needed them to build fighting machines (tanks,
>> ># fighter planes, fortress construction, demolitions and so on)?
>> >
>> >This is really idiotic. Building a gas chamber is such a big
>> >deal? More so when you have slave labor to do it, and the gas
>> >chambers were indeed built by slave laborers? 
>> >
>> It is the special equipment that goes with the gas chamber that is the 
>> problem, or are you being especially stupid?
>
>What _special_ equipment is Mr. McKinstry taalking about? Surely not the
>furnaces or ventilation system, whose engineering and manufacturing
>principles were well understood by the Topf engineers. 
>
*sigh*

So none of the Topf engineers were ever recruited for the war effort?  Is this
a 100% fact that I can quote to anybody with your name attached?  If not, shut
up.

What are your reasons for giving me a name that is not mine (re: Mr. McKinstry)?

>> ># Why wasn't there young men around? 
>> >
>> >What? What are you talking about? What young men were not where?
>> >
>> You were the one asserting that the camps were mainly filled with everybody 
>> except young men.
>
>Indeed. The _labor_ camps of Auschwitz were indeed filled with young men
>(and women) who survived selection for the gas chambers. 
>
Not according to Daniel Keren.  When both of you have decided what the official
story is, please come back and tell me.

>> Did they magically disappear?
>
>No. Thousands survived the death marches when Auschwitz was evacuated.
>However, Tens of thousands, however, didn't survive. They died of disease,
>starvation, privation, brutality, and were worked either to death or to
>the point where they were "unfit for work," at which time they were sent
>to the gas chambers and killed. 
>
Ah, but according to Daniel Keren they weren't there (or rather in very small
numbers), so who am I to believe?

>The Sonderkommando too was comprised of young, healthy, strong men. They
>were rarely worked to death and were not starved. They enjoyed one of the
>highest, if not _the_ highest standards of living a prisoner at Auschwoitz
>could. They were also routinely sent to the gas chambers en masse and
>killed. (Dead men tell no tales.) 
>
That is your story, Daniel Keren has another.

Do you think people in the sonderkommando would notice their fellow sonder-
kommando disappearing, or are you saying that the SS men wiped out a batch
and started over again with a new batch?

>> ># Where they only shipping the useless for slave labour? 
>> >
>> >The elderly, sick, etc. were murdered and not used for slave
>> >labor. This is well documented. Why don't you read the documents
>> >your Nazi heroes wrote about this?
>> >
>> So where were the young men?
>
>Some were. Most weren't. 
>
Huh?

>> ># So how did they keep them from escaping, rioting or whatever?
>> >
>> >How many armed men do you need to watch over unarmed prisoners?
>> >Sometimes, they indeed rioted. Most were killed, some escaped.
>> >
>> I wouldn't know, that is why I am asking an expert like you.
>
>The Sonderkommando revolt of October 7, 1944, reminds one, even when the
>some couple of hundred Sonderkommando of Krema IV revolted, the watchtower
>guards and the SS security battallion at Birkenau crushed the revolt
>killing some 250 Sonderkommandos while suffering only three SS men killed.
>(cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.516.) 
>
Why didn't the rest get involved?

[snip]
>
>> ># so please cut the crap about secret death rays,
>> >
>> >If the "leading revisionist scholar", crazy Ernst Zundel, believes
>> >that the Nazis built "secret UFO's", and flew them into the center
>> >of the earth through a "hole in the South-Pole", than why not
>> >death rays? 
>> >
>> I wouldn't know, having never read any of Ernst Zundel's books.  Can you back
>> this up (in context)?
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/z/zundel.ernst/flying-saucers
>http://search.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/flying-saucers/
>
IOW Daniel Keren is fond of exaggerating and telling half-truths?

>
>For those interested in evidence of Mr. Mckinstry's  (a.k.a. Stone,
>Ourobouros, and Pugnandus) Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism,  bigotry and
>racism,  intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/mckinstry.colin
>
Ah, we have the real reason why you think that I am Colin McKinstry.  If McVay
uses his peanut then it must be correct.  If McVay threw himself off a shear
cliff with jagged rocks at the bottom, would you also do so?  If McVay believes
it is correct then it must be correct, mustn't it?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 14:54:26 PST 1997
Article: 94374 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.229.87.25!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Jeffrey Still Has a Screw Loose!
Date: 20 Jan 1997 12:04:46 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5c0j4u$3i2@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5btv56$1bu@camel1.mindspring.com> <32E286DA.67F7@phoenix.net>  <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:44821 alt.revisionism:94374 alt.politics.white-power:56820

In article <32E39833.72D9@phoenix.net>, Doc says...
>
>Jeff you psychotic spaz if you are going to quote me then quote me in
>context! The context is: The liar always attcks the opposing person
>BECAUSE he can't refute any of the ideas! If I have already answered a
>spaz psychotic such as you then I am not attcking the person as an
>anaswer when I have alreadt made an answer - why can't you get that into
>your hard thick head? Were you an LSD user during the 60s and now have
>brain damage or what? People want to know as well as I do!
>
I somehow doubt this will convince Mr. "Brown" to quote in context.  My
experience with this particular individual is that he is incapable of quoting 
in context.

[snip]

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia




From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 15:06:41 PST 1997
Article: 56825 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.127.130.5!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: ATTN Mr. C. H. Lund
Date: 20 Jan 1997 17:51:46 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5c17fi$h47@lex.zippo.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1672-auck.ihug.co.nz

Do you remember your disbelief concerning Negro brains?

Please review http://home1.gte.net/nri/100facts.html#The negro brain for
further information.  The numbers in brackets refer to the works contained in
the bibliography at the bottom of said web page.

Please take particular note of Fact #19, and Fact #20.

I stand vindicated on my earlier statements concerning the Negro brain.  What
you make of it is up to you.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia



From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 15:06:42 PST 1997
Article: 56826 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.127.130.5!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: White folks too dumb for freedom of religion. Was Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: 20 Jan 1997 17:27:47 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <5c162j$g4b@lex.zippo.com>
References:  <5ap2lm$dcl@lex.zippo.com> <852626912snz@augur.demon.co.uk> <5aun01$iem@lex.zippo.com> <5b0vq8$j15@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5b204f$21h@lex.zippo.com> <32d83590.5857956@news.atlcom.net> <5b3koc$cdj@lex.zippo.com> <32ddc55f.42677940@news.atlcom.net> <5b4neg$27r@lex.zippo.com> <5b62g6$rg7@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5b71ck$p26@lex.zippo.com> <5bb9pf$cm4@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5bbhnd$isn@lex.zippo.com> <5bd50o$5id@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <5bmo0c$14h@lex.zippo.com> <5c0iof$h4g@gyda.ifi.uio.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1672-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article <5c0iof$h4g@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>
>In article <5bmo0c$14h@lex.zippo.com>, Ourobouros writes:
>> In article <5bd50o$5id@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>	[snip]
>
>> >So what should we call you? "Pubert"?
>> >"Mr Stone"?
>> >
>> Howabout Pugnandus or Mystes Alchimia?
>
>Howabout "Pugnatious" or "Puggy"?
>
Do you mean Pugnacious?

I can accept "Pug."

>> Either of them catch my fancy.
>
>I see you're still into that New Agey stuff, BTW.
>
Here we go again.  Alchemy is old age, just for starters.  As I said months 
ago, you don't call all Christians New Age, therefore don't call all alchemists
New Age.

Btw, I doubt pugnandus has any connotations with New Age.
 
[Using real names]

>What it boils down to is that you don't dare say what you think under your
>real name because you worry about it being used against you in the future.

Basically.

>Maybe you should rethink your opinions.
>
You mean go with the flow?  Don't speak up about the wrongs?  Be PC like you?

[snip]

>*Real* name, see?
>
>	C. Lund, Oslo	http://www.ifi.uio.no/~christop/shame.html
>
Can you prove beyond shadow of a doubt that your real name is Christopher 
Henrik Lund on the Internet?

As a digression to this fascinating topic of real names and pseudonyms, why do
you think so many of the authors in the 16th-19th centuries used pseudonyms
instead of their real names?  

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 15:06:43 PST 1997
Article: 56827 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.229.87.25!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Artless Dodger or Don't Call Me Twinkletoes
Date: 20 Jan 1997 18:57:18 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5c1bae$jfa@lex.zippo.com>
References:  <5ap2lm$dcl@lex.zippo.com> <852626912snz@augur.demon.co.uk> <5aun01$iem@lex.zippo.com> <5b0vq8$j15@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5b204f$21h@lex.zippo.com> <5b36l0$es@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5b3orj$ekh@lex.zippo.com> <5b5g6q$q9t@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b625f$7g9@lex.zippo.com> <5bb5hi$cm4@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5bbhdk$ifj@lex.zippo.com> <5bdm68$hbl@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5beng0$kk@lex.zippo.com>  <5bh9tu$sid@lex.zippo.com> <32DE95C0.3B2E@mcmaster.ca> <5bogli$eq6@lex.zippo.com> <32E0FE63.7501@mcmaster.ca> <32E408E4.4DE9@quick.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1672-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article <32E408E4.4DE9@quick.net>, "I. says...
>
[snip]

>Laura, my staff and I are betting that in the future you and Orobouros
>will wed each other. I have a $1000.00 riding on you that you will catch
>him and tie the knot. Don't let me down.
>IPN
>
Piss off.

I read this post only to find someone pushing a soap.  

How can you even suggest such a stupid thing?  (Please don't answer, it is a
rhetorical question.)

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia








From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 15:57:43 PST 1997
Article: 56848 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!visi.com!mr.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.revolution.american.second,alt.politics.youth,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Question #6 To Proponets Of Multicultural Socities.
Date: 23 Jan 1997 23:25:32 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5c9o5c$af9@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5b0lqa$9et@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <5b2n9k$5jg@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <32D5B81E.7612@provide.net> <5b5i7a$rd4@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <32E01897.3A0E@provide.net> <5brkaa$7bg@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <5brrl8$1ad@lex.zippo.com> <5bue79$u57@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <5buk3i$75t@lex.zippo.com> <5c973e$c5s@chaos.dac.neu.edu>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:44846 alt.politics.usa.constitution:113937 alt.politics.white-power:56848 alt.politics.correct:177415

In article <5c973e$c5s@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>
>In article <5buk3i$75t@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:

[snip]

>: Very well:
>
>: So you are saying that you would quite freely hire someone with mental
>: retardation to be the managing director of a large and important
>: company? 
>
>    No, because such a person is probably not qualified.  But, that's
>not prejudice.
>
What if they lowered the standard for qualifications?  

>: So you would freely hire a blind man for the position of interior
>: designer? 
>
>    No, because he probably would not be qualified.
>
You are being prejudiced.

>: You would hire extremely obese men as aerobic instructors or ballerinas?
>
>    No, because such a person probably would not be qualified.
>    None of these examples are cases of prejudice, but rather, of not
>being qualified.  If I would not hire someone because of something like
>the color of their skin, gender, sexual orientation, age, or some other
>factor that they have no control over, then it *is* prejudice.
>
Crap.  You are being prejudiced.  You have decided that they don't have the
qualifications.

[snip]

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Fri Jan 24 18:16:05 PST 1997
Article: 94406 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!pumpkin.pangea.ca!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Contemptuous of trash? Only on my _good_ days.
Date: 23 Jan 1997 23:55:41 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
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In article , atticus@mindspring.com says...
>
>In article <5c7fm5$cpj@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>  :How do you think the United Nations gets away with her hegemony over the 
>  :nations?
>
>The U.N. is wholly at the mercy of the member states, and any use of force
>can be vetoed by the U.S., the U.K., Russia, France, or the People's
>Republic of China. That hardly qualifies as hegemony.
>
I would classify the UN's ability to define what is wrong and what is right
as a classic case of hegemony.

>  :Yes, I have often contemplated why France and Great Britain didn't allow the
>  :two to slog it out.  Afterall, every sin that Hitler was supposed to have 
>  :done, Stalin and his predecessors were doing in spades.  
>
>Hitler and Stalin knew that the West would love to see them take each other
>down. That's why the non-aggression pact held until the West was pretty
>firmly committed.
>
I believe it served two purposes (from the German perspective):

1.  To sucker punch Stalin (by Hitler.)

2.  To give Germany time to make necessary the arrangements for a full invasion.
As is commonly known, the two week hold up in the Balkans cost Hitler dearly.
  
>The other allies were none to thrilled to line up alongside the U.S.S.R.,
>but Germany attacked them and then attacked Russia. The alliance was
>practically inevitable.
>
Wasn't one of Churchill's sayings "I would hold hands with the devil to defeat
Hitler"?

That basically sums it up.  

>Patton, for one, favored charging straight through from Berlin to Moscow,
>but the U.S. still had a war in the Pacific to win.
>
You mean they rolled over and wagged their tails, don't you?

>  :Wasn't Hitler Times' Man of the year in 1938?
>
>Yes, but Time's man of the year is not necessarily a compliment. It is
>awarded to the person who, for good or ill, had the greatest impact on the
>world. Hitler was a shoo-in.
>
>  :As for your comment, I remain unconvinced.  Wall Street loved the communists.
>
>That comment mysifies me. If Wall Street is full of communists and
>felow-travelers, then where can a capitalist be found?
>
Were did a lot of funding come from for the Russian revolution?

>  :And of course there is Alger Hiss and Roosevelt.
>
>There was Aldrich Ames and Bush. The KGB always did a decent job of
>infiltrating the government, with the help of more than a few misguided
>Americans.
>
And you don't see that as manipulating the USA to side with the Soviet Union?

>  :As for Hitler being incompetent, he was doing extremely well for most of the
>  :war, despite the Enigma code and later Geheimstubber (sp?) code being 
>  :cracked.
>
>Of course, the Allies bear a large measure of responsibility for the way
>W.W.II took shape. Had they stood up to Hitler at Munich, or during the
>Anschluss, or when he rearmed the Rhine, Rommel might have killed Hitler
>himself. First Chamberlain, then Stalin -- taking Hitler at his word was a
>common sin.
>
I believe if they had utilised the information from the codes the would have 
done a lot better.  Do you know Churchill allowed the butchering of New Zealand
soldiers in the battle of Crete, simply because he didn't want Hitler getting
the foggiest idea that the codes were cracked?  What an absolute bastard.
General Freyberg was forced to allow this state of affairs even though he knew.
I have secondary thoughts on why the allies practically never acted upon the
cracked codes, but that would involve something you disdain.

>As it was, Hitler's successive victories bolstered his air of
>invincibility. Eventually, Hitler believed his own press. I have no doubt
>that Hitler was genuinely surprised when the Allies drew a line in the sand
>and actually endeavored to hold it. He should not have been surprised, but
>the Allies should have given him less reason to doubt their word.

If you care to review any of the crises of the interwar period you couldn't
blame Hitler one bit.  Review Abyssinia, General Franco, Finland, the Soviet
Union's botched attempt at Poland, the incident at Marco Polo bridge, 
Manchuria, and of course the communist claim of turning the world communist.
What did Great Britain and the USA do?  Nothing except empty words, both were
"paper tigers."

Why should Hitler have believed Great Britain and France couldn't be pushed no
further.  They gave ground in all the above incidents.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Sat Jan 25 10:44:40 PST 1997
Article: 56871 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Follow-up for the Aryans
Date: 23 Jan 1997 23:19:00 -0800
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In article <01bc098f$06eb79c0$84142399@atlatl>, "Looks2Sky" says...
>
>(This message will be reposted until the original detractors [Ourobouros,
>Eggboe, and Abbott] respond to the information put forth herein.).
>
>THE FOLLOW-UP:
>I wrote: Are you nazi's so ignorant of history as to not know that
>world/cultural dominance is cyclical? Blacks for thousands of years ruled
>the planet.  What evidence you ask?  Well just consider the Elam in persia,
>the Grimaldi in Europe, the Sumerian (original) in Mesopatamia, the vedics
>in India, the Negritos throughout all of Asia, the "black" Mongols of
>Eurasia..... Black peoples started civilization....for the thousands of
>years previous, Blacks, Indians, native Americans, Asians, and semites held
>the technological advantage, while whites lived in caves and huts as
>"Berserkers and Celts" wreaking havoc in Europe.  
>
>Ourobouros wrote: More stupidity.  I can only hope Christopher Henrik Lund
>reads this and takes note of the mental prowess of his comrades.
>
>Ourobouros completely blew off my point.  Was he afraid to address the
>issue?  Why is it that William Mathew Flinders- Petrie(1853-1942:  British
>egyptologist), Gaston Maspero (1846-1916:  Director of Cairo Museum 1889),
>Abbe Emile Amelineau (Noted Egyptologist 1815-1916 - discoverer of the
>Pre-dynastic Egyptians known as the Anu), Sir Arthur Keith (Some important
>brit), David MacRitchie (British historian), Michael Rice (English Author),
>Martin Bernal (Author of "Black Athena"), Alexander Von Wuthenau
>(German/Serbian Historian),  (The ancients:)  Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus
>of Sicily, Pliny (Roamn Historian), and so many other European experts have
>made many statements supporting my assertions.  If I am wrong, why doesn't
>
>"Mr." Ourobouros prove it.  Perhaps because he cannot.  
>
*sigh*

Sir Arthur Keith wrote that the ancient Egyptians were broad-browed longheads
or if that goes over your head -- The Nordic skull shape.  Sir Arthur Keith
is also known to have exhumed bodies at Ur (Sumerian era) and wrote the same 
thing.

Herodotus was considered a liar by his successors, and his comment about 
Colchis, which you Afro-centrics love, is quite bizarre.  And quite simply put,
he wrote of things pertaining to the fifth century.

Why don't you quote from Champollion, the father of Egyptology and his 
translations from Sesostris I's tomb?  If I could be bothered I could track
down some URLs on the web (they do exist) which have the races, as per Sesostris
I, documented.  I can quite assure you, the ancient Egyptians weren't Black, 
because theysaid they weren't.  They were the red race.

The Celts and the Germans were only a segment of the White race.

>It is undisputed that the original Elamites and Sumerians were blacks.  

What a load of bullshit.  Do you know the Sumerians knew about the Negro, that
they left sculptures of blatant Negroes around?  The most explicit one is of
a lioness ripping out the throat of a Negro boy.  The Sumerians did not
depict themselves anything remotely like a Negro.  Pictures of this sculpture
can be found in most modern books on the ancient Near East.

Your other major problem is that both Elamites and Sumerians had the wrong
skull shape to be Negro, however they did have the right skull shape to be
white (longhead of Mediterranean type.)

>The
>Babylonians (in a famous tablet that has been preserved), asked the 
>question "What happened to the black-headed people that inhabited this
>land?"  To refute any argument, the Babylonians often had black or dark
>brown hair.  The "black-headed" is commonly accepted as referring to
>black-skinned people, and not hair color.  Many racists, (false)Christians
>use this Babylonian text as proof that the original (Pre-Adamic) people
>were blacks that were replaced by the (Adamic) whites.  So to deny this
>babylonian proof is to deny your very own racists, Aryan, brothers.
>
Er no, you have decided that black heads means black-skinned.  It is generally
thought that the reference was to do with their black skull caps they wore.

>Egypt has been conquered/invaded by White Lybians, Sea Peoples
>(Phoenicians?), Israelites &/or Hyksos (assuming they are white),
>Assyrians, Greeks, Macedonians, Persians, Romans, Ottomans/Turks, Arabs,
>England, France, and even Germany for a brief time.  Despite thousands of
>years of european and indo-European invasion and inter-mixture, the black
>(African) origin of the egyptian people is still obvious to this very day. 
>The same goes for the Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti, Oman, etc.  If you cannot see
>it, it is only because your racism blinds you.  Many Moroccans, Egyptians,
>Libyans, Arabians, etc. look more like black Africans than many
>African-americans I know -- Including myself and my own
>family members.
>
That is because they mixed with you, and became impotent.
>
>Ourobouros wrote:  KMT, more stupidity.  KMT or Kemet, not Khemet, means
>the black land.  It never has, and never will mean "land of the blacks." 
>The ancient Egyptians named two types of land, red land, black land.  Red
>land referred to the desert (east and west), and black land referred to the
>fertile regions.
>
>You are correct, Khemet is wrong.  Khem however, the root word, is
>appropriately spelled as such.  To say that KMT or Kemet referred to the
>black soil is your own flawed analysis and interpretation.  Many scholars
>both black and white (and others as well) would argue against you.  Khem is
>the egyptian variation on the word from which we get the transliterated
>Ham.  Khem has been translated hot, black, burnt, etc.; virtually the same
>meanings as the Hebrew Ham (Chem).  Just as Ham was black, so was the
>descendants of Ham.  One of Ham's descendants was Mizraim.  Mizraim is
>Egypt.  The Egyptians, in line with the Bible, correctly acknowledged there
>lineage - as descendants of blacks; and more accurately, as blacks
>themselves.  You apparently disagree, prove it!  Or are you all hype?
>
Name these scholars that say Kemet means land of the Blacks.

I couldn't careless about your interpretation of the Bible (not that I give it
that much credence anyway.)  I doubt the ancient Egyptians gave any credence
to that book either.

Ancient Egyptian and Hebrew are two completely different languages.

>
>Ouroborous wrote:  The Berlin bust of Nefertiti is hardly a depiction of a
>savage.   Admittedly, the Dynasty XII Pharaohs did not like Europeans, but
>then, the  Dynasty XII Pharoahs did not like anybody but Egyptians, they
>even made  proclammations demanding the death of all Negroes that dared to
>enter  Egypt.
>
>Why would Nefertiti be depicted as a savage?  She wasn't white?  This
>argument makes no sense.  You can find images of Nefertiti that appear
>white (Caucasoid) and others that appear black (negroid).  If this is the
>basis of your argument, you are a weaker debater than you initially
>appeared.  
>
I am being bluntly honest, something that you are not.  Her husband was a true
nut, the original sensitive new age git.  When I mean savage I am talking
about people like yourself.

>The declarations you speak of, weren't for all negroes but more likely for
>the Nubians (Cushites) they were warring with.  I must add the war was not
>based on racial animosity but on geopolitical issues.  Based on your
>argument, Irish/English, Basque/Spaniard, Serb/Croat, Russian/Chechynian(?
>spelling), and other European conflicts would be based on race, and not the
>actual ethnic, religious, and political differences that are the real
>cause.  Cush was so powerful at the time, they were considered a real
>threat; and because Upper (southern) Egypt was so heavily influenced (and
>dominated) by the Nubian, the ruling Pharoahs feared for their regime.  But
>all blacks in Egypt couldn't have been slaves, simply because the Egyptian
>Pharoahs themselves were black (or at the very least, of mixed descent).
>
The war with Nubia was most likely to do with territory than with racial
animosity, that I give you.  Kush was not a threat at all, nor were the 
Egyptians influenced by the Nubians, unless you mean sport (hunting Negroes.)

Dynasty XII didn't keep Negroes as slaves, they put them to death instead.
Dynasty XVIII made Negroes slaves, after the reconquest -- it laxed because of
the Hyskos and not due to any ability of Negroes.

>
>Ourobouros wrote:  You would be upset to find out that the people of the
>then Green Sahara  were not Negro either.
>
>Great comment, but where is the proof?  Lacking as usual.  Even the
>Christain Bible asks:  "Can the Ethiopian (Cushite) change his skin?" 
>Ethiopians (Nubians, Cushites, Sudanese) always were and always will be
>black.  Even with hundreds to thousands of years of foreign invasion, their
>African origin is still abundantly clear.  All "non Aryan-wannabees" will
>admit that the Cushite was always black.  Herodotus, Pliny, et. al., attest
>to that fact.  Your desperation is showing; the very images found at the
>same time (as well as later, and previously) prove clearly that the Cushite
>was black.
>
I gave the proof of the Green Sahara after that comment.  Blacks have far more
dominating genes.  Once the Egyptians mixed with Negroes that was the end of
Egypt.

>Ourobouros wrote (quoted):  "The non-Negro stock recognised in the Sahara
>[5,000-3,000BC, Ed's note] is certainly not related to the Mechta-Afalou
>race, but another race has been distinguished in northwest Africa and here
>the resemblances are said to be close. ... It is appreciably less rugged
>than the Mechta-Afalou race; is long-headed; of slender build and
>approaches a primitive Mediterranean type [sic, Ed's note]." J. D. Clark, 
>_The Prehistory of Africa_, 1970, p.167.
>
>THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, for being foolish enough to post this! 
>There
>was a discovery of skulls very similar in facial structure to Scandinavians
>found in strata associated with the Egyptian/Nubian time period you
>mentioned above.  The skulls had very thin nasal passages, and lacked the
>"overbite" that many attribute to "true" black Africans.  Many held this as
>proof that whites were in Africa very early on.  Uhh Ohh.  There was
>another recent discovery, same skull-types but with one major difference -
>the hair had been preserved.  The hair on these skulls was of a type ONLY
>found on Africans (i.e., blacks).  The discovery was not of a white race
>indigenous to Africa, but a Black African that had a phenotype quite
>similar to modern day Somalis and Ethiopians (Abyssinians not Cushite
>Ethiopians).  Please, tell me you aren't one of those idiots who actually
>believes in the mythical "black- white race."  The "black" white people
>theory went out in the very early1900's, only the hillbillies who lack
>access to modern books, museums, and other sources of knowledge can still
>hold to it.
>
Lets have a citation for this hair.  No, I don't believe in this black-white
thing, having never heard it before.

>These "thin-nosed," "no overbite" blacks undoubtedly eventually migrated
>into Northern Europe, settled there, mutated (albinism), and unfortunately
>became the modern day aryan and scandinavian.
>
Your claim, but as usual, a claim based upon hot air.

>You Aryans don't consider a black man truly "black" or "negroid" unless he
>has a wide flat nose, exaggerated lips, etc.  You fail to realize
>that the Black African is as diverse as the White European (and
>indo-european).  The Slav looks different from then Italian who looks
>different from the Lapp, who looks different from the portuguese, who looks
>different from the persian, who looks different from the basque, who looks
>different from the Irish, who looks different from the Syrian, who looks
>different from the Englishman, who.....  Why can whites be so diverse, but
>blacks must be limited to those who only have "flat noses" or "exaggerated
>lips?"  Racism that is why!  It is your own racism that blinds you from the
>truth.  "Mr." Ouroborous, you are really getting desperate if you have to
>cite that tidbit of info as a prooftext.  
>
I am talking about skull shapes.  Negroes don't have White skulls, nor do Whites
have Negro skulls.

>
>Ourobourous wrote: No, Herodotus stated that the Egyptian troops were
>Negro.  He never stated the Greek pantheon and culture were derived from
>Ethiopia.  
>
>The tide is turning and the battle is near won.
>1.  Herodotus stated: "Lastly, by calling the doves black, they (The
>Dodonaeans) indicated that the woman was EGYPTIAN..."  speaking of the
>Greek Oracles.

And what century was this story about?

That doesn't prove the Egyptians were Black, you should go back to your example
of the Colchians.  Would you care to comment about the twittering?

>2.  Herodotus stated that many of the very names of the Greek gods, were of
>egyptian origin.  READ!
>
And?

>Also
>3.  Isis, Osiris (a god clearly depicted as Black), Serapis, and Anubis had
>alters throughout Europe, including Austria and France.    

And?

>4.  Athena and Aphrodite (Venus) were not uncommonly depicted as Black
>(Ethiopian).  Hence the (European) term "black venus."

Are they? Where?

All the depictions of Aphrodite I have seen all display her as a typical White.
I have seen one depiction of Athena with olive skin, but then Athens was no
more at that date.

>5.  Sappho the poet, known to the greeks as the "Tenth Muse" described
>herself as both black & African.

She did?

I don't recall the lesbian describing herself as Black.

>6.  Zeus in mythology fathered "Black Epaphus" an Ethiopian!  Many have
>ascribed the very title -Ethiop- to zeus himself.

Huh?

Black Epaphus?  Where?  Even if he were called Black that doesn't mean he had
black skin.  If I am in a black mood, do I suddenly change skin colour?

>7.  The sorceress Circe of homer's Odyssey, was depicted as African.

I knew I should have brought the Odyssey for such an occasion.  Please
demonstrate where Circe is depicted as an African, and the relevance thereof.

>8.  Hermes is the Egyptian Thoth
>
So?

>The Army reference was related not to the Cushites but to the Colchians
>(conquered by Sesostris' army), get your facts straight Ourobouros.  If you
>are going to challenge my credibility, I suggest you back it up.
>
Er no, I was referring to the place where Jason got the golden fleece.

>I haven't the time to reproduce what Strabo wrote in his work "Geography"
>or what Diodorus of Sicily wrote concerning the Egyptian / Ethiopian
>Connectian (racially speaking).  Both Dioduros, and some of Herodotus'
>sources support the Ethiopians' (Cushites) claims that they colonized Egypt
>when most of Egypt was still under water.  Read it - IF YOU CAN ARYAN.  I
>seem to be regressing into a hateful mode, I will calm myself.
>
And?

As a pointed out above, the Green Sahara was not originally populated by Blacks.

>In Martin Bernal's (huge) three volume work "Black Athena," he goes into
>detail concerning the Egyptian/Ethiopian influence on Pantheonic Greece. 
>Read it my friend.  It is very widely held (to the point where none would
>dispute) that the Greeks incorporated the Egyptian God Thoth into their own
>pantheon˝E          ÍU   as the god Hermes (Roman - Mercury). 
>
There is an even bigger debate on whether any of these correlations have any
significance.  It was part of Greek thought to align everybody's Gods with
their own, but that doesn't make them right.

>
>Ourobouros wrote:  Napolean and his troops did not acknowledge that the
>depictions of Pharoahs, nor the Sphinx depicted Nubians in appearance.  
>
>Bull!  The may not have verbally articulated it, but the drawings
>(sketchings) made by soldiers accompanying Napolean of the sphinx were
>drawn in such a manner that only a fool or Aryan would be in doubt.  Their
>sketchings/drawings of the face of the Sphinx were so very  Bantu in
>nature, the only way you could make such a dumb comment is if you weren't
>aware of them.  It would appear that you are speaking out of your bloody
>bum hole.  I forgot the individual's name, but a scientist who accompanied
>Napolean's
>army described the egyptians as black.  I do not have the direct source,
>but 
>Ivan van Sertima quotes from him in his book "They Came Before Columbus."
>
Bah ha ha.  The Sphinx as it stands today does not resemble a Negro.

>Ourobouros wrote:  It is common of modern Egyptian textbooks to try and
>correlate any piece of ancient Egyptian culture to a Negro practise.  Few
>have any recognisable correlation.
>
>Likewise it is the very nature of insecure Aryans(who realise there lack of
>deep-rooted historical roots concerning contributions to the world) to
>distort the ancient records, archeological evidence, drawings, sculptures,
>and even common sense to try to connect themselves with history.  Like I
>said previously, Aryans were barborous human beings before say 900 A.D.
>(giving you the benefit of the doubt).  The aryan (as the term was defined
>by adolph hitler) contributed nothing to world history until fairly modern
>times.  Yet look at his atrocities.  The Prussian, German of WWI, the
>dispicable 
>Nazis of WWII, the wannabee, inbred, neo-nazi's of the current era.  No 
>wonder you guys want to change history - your history
>has been so utterly pathetic.  Compare the Meroe culture of Sudan, compare
>the contemporaneous cultures in Phut/Punt (Somaliland & Ethiopia), to
>germany at the same time.  Damn, I'm smiling as I type this.  There is no
>comparison.  You people were raping and pillaging the rest of coastal
>Europe, calling yourselves berserkers.  Your own name (berserkers) fits you
>- heed it.
>
I already have done these comparisons on this newsgroup (several times) and
each time they are found wanting.

>In the 1600's the black king of Mali, Mansa Musa, ruled over an area larger
>than the Roman Empire.  Mansa Musa (a moslem) was responsible for the
>wonders at Timbukto.  Whites downplay the significane of this place, that
>is why the term "where is that, in timbukto?" was once so prevalent.  The
>term implied that Timbuktu was some backwards land.  In fact, it 's streets
>were literally paved with gold, Arabs and Europeans alike came their to
>study, to trade, and for recreation.  Compare the splendors of Mali in the
>1600's with Germland, Austria. etc. at the same time.  Mali would blow away
>Germany .  Germany owes all that it is to the civilizing effects of Rome. 
>I am not a catholic.  I think catholism is a false religion.  But let's
>face it, if it wasn't for Rome., you guys would still be tattoed, praying
>to Woden/Wotan/Odin, and calling yourselves berserkers.  
>
I am not German.  The way I have always heard Timbukto described was not of
a fantastic place, but a non-existent place.

Your so-called Empires owe everything to the Arabs.

>
>Ourobouros wrote:  It is commonly believed that the "Exodus" occurred in
>Dynasty XIX  (Rameses II), at the time the only Negroes in Egypt were in
>chains, and their usual spot was in Karnak, a practice carried from Dynasty
>XVIII, and has no earlier history.  Dynasty XII forbade the presence of
>Negroes into Egypt (on pain of death) when they conquered Nubia.
>
>It is true that the non-christian (or the christian who doesn't rely on the
>gensesis & exodus timelines) dates the exodus at Rameses II's reign.  this
>is based primarily on the biblical reference to the city of Per Ramessu
>(and other evidence that can only be deemed weak at best).  But based on
>Christian belief and the chronology found in Genesis and Exodus, it is
>clear that the Exodus occurred circa 1447 B.C.  You "Church of the Creator"
>and "Church of Israel"dudes claim to be Christians (you are not), so I am
>surprised you are so quick to cite non-christian interpretation.
>
When have I claimed to be Christian?

As I said Ramesses II is the normally acknowledged time, all you have offered
is an un-orthodox theory -- being reading Velikovsky?

>Also, please show me (or simply refer me) to a source for this "exile at
>pain of death" claim of yours; it's tedious and again unsubstantiated. 
>Also to say that all blacks that were in Egypt during Dynasty XIX were in
>chains is so utterly ridiculous that I shouldn't even commentÍU         
>Ýe   on it. 

Read Champollion on the barrier to Blacks in Egypt.  Your Blacks in chains is
a well recorded fact, feel free to review any standard ancient Egyptian book
on Karnak.  If anything is ridicolous around here, it is your arguments.

>Suffice to say, visit a real museum and see if what you say is so.  In two
>weeks (or less) I should have my scanner.  I would love to upload the
>pictures I have to this (and related) newsgroup, to counter this grabage
>you are spewing.  It truly is nonsense.  
>
I know the War Museum in Auckland has a female mummy, guess what colour her
face is painted (on the sarcophagus)?

>I AM DYING TO upload a picture of a painting found in the Tomb of Ramses
>III (1200 B.C.).  The picture was taken by (the GERMAN)  K.R. Lepsius in
>his huge volume "Denkmaler aus Aegypten und Aethiopien, Erganzungsband,"
>plate #48.  This picture depicts the "Red" Egyptian, Black Egyptian,
>Nubian,  Indo-European, and Semitic, and "true" European side by side.  The
>racial and or ethnic names are placed next to the image (in hieroglygpics)
>as proof.  The Black Egyptian and the Nubian are depicted exactly the same
>(both as nobles but subordinate to the "Red Egyptian").  The Indo-european
>and  Semite are also depicted in a noble manner.  The European however, is
>depicted as heavily tattoed, and quite, quite, barbaric looking.  The
>Egyptian esteemed the semite and Indo-European higher than the true
>European.  This is amazing considering the disdain the Egyptian had for the
>simple semitic shepherd-herder.  
>
You should read Champollion first.

>This picture was taken by a German, not a multi-culturalist American or an
>afrocentric black man.  the photo (and the book in general) is actually
>quite old.  It is very hard to find and often hidden far from sight (no
>surprise).  It took the historian at the main public library in New York
>City (at 42nd Street) over an half an hour to find the book series and the
>appropriate volume.  when he found it, it was worth it.  It was plain proof
>from the tomb of a major Pharoah of how low (the lowest in fact) the true
>european was regarded.  he was and often still is most barbaric.  The
>neo-viking wannabees prove my words to this day.  DO NOT TRUST ME!!!!! 
>Check it out for yourself.  Again the author and book is as follows: 
>K.R. Lepsius  - Denkmaler aus Aegypten und Aethiopien, Erganzungsband,"
>plate #48.  There are many volumes, so it may take a while to find plate
>number 48; but it IS in there.  Make sure you point out the 
>"Erganzungsband" part of the title, I believe it indicates that it is one
>of the supplement books.  Again, it is vital to look for  "Erganzungsband"
>because it was key in helping the historian find the appropriate book.
>
Maybe one day...but we are talking Dynasty XX here. 

>I will upload as many photos as possible as soon as my scanner comes in! 
>again, it should take about two weeks.
>
>Note also this quote from Domeny de Rienzi, a 19th century european
>egyptologist:  "At that time our race was rather savage and sometimes
>tattoed, as i have seen it depicted on the tomb of Sesostris I in the
>valley of Bibanel-Moluk at Thebes, the city of gods." L'Oceanie, Paris:
>Collection l'Univers, 1836, vol. I.
>
True, I have never denied that the Egyptians at the time of Sesostris I
despised Europeans, in fact I have mentioned it a few times.

>The ultra-racist, white-supremist, nazi of a human-being, Jean-Francois
>Champollion (Champollion the Younger- French Egyptologist, 1790-1832), is
>one of the most well known egyptologists.  He is often called the founder
>of Egyptology.  He attests to the authenticity of these two tomb paintings
>in his own letters. 
>
Nazi?  You seem to have an intense hatred for the man.  Why?  Because he
dispells your pet theories.  

>
>Ourobouros wrote:  An equally plausible Cush is Cish, which is SE of
>Babylon, please bear in mind that the original writing system (of the
>Hebrews) had no vowels.
>
>Wrong again, this time in a a big way.  It is not "equally" plausible at
>all!  Chronologically it doesn't fit, historically (as far as interaction)
>it doesn't fit, geographically it doesn't fit (Cush is a neighbor, Cish or
>more accurately Kish, is QUITE a ways off), and biblically it doesn't fit.
>Kish was destroyed about 2000 B.C.  It continued to exist as a city (as
>opposed to a City-state), but the limited role it played after 2000 B.C.
>(end of the Sumerian age) makes it unlikely that it had much contact with
>Egypt.  Cush directly bordered Egypt.  Whereas the closest point between
>Egypt and Kish was over 500 miles.  It just doesn't add up.
>
Chronology it does fit.  Cish has been around for a long time, and was 
still around in the classical period.


>If Cush = Kish in that spot, well it has to equal it in all of the biblical
>passages.  Likewise the passage about an Ethiopian changing his skin would
>make no sense if it was talking of a white individual (think man, I KNOW
>you can!).  Was the ethiopian Eunuch really from Babylonia, In New
>Testament times? Also Cush was a descendant of Ham, just like Mizraim, so
>common sense would be better served by acknowledging that the biblical Cush
>was Nubia (Sudan/Ethiopia) and not the Babylonian Kish.  Just look at the
>chronlogy, it doesn't fit.  and if it doesn't fit you must acquit, uh oh,
>I'm turning into Johnny.  Also, the word Qiysh is found in the Old
>testament and we transliterate it as Kish, in case you didn't know.  One
>final point, Cush literally means black.
>
Was not Ham and his descendents cursed?  Why would  Moses marry someone
cursed?

If I remember my Church lessons, it is highly feasible for the eunuch to have
come from Cish, especially since there would have been a sizeable Jewish
community there.

As for your passage about changing the skin, does that mean absolutely
Black?

[Rest of the Moses argument snipped]

>
>Ourobouros wrote:  BTW, did you know Apollo (a Greek God) had blonde hair?
>
>BTW, did you know that Athena, Zeus, Aphrodite, et. al. were depicted as
>black?  So what is your point.  Some blond Greeks wanted to make Apollo in
>their image; big deal.  It proves nothing.  If you want proof of these
>black depictions, give me two weeks (the scanner again) and I will upload
>it.
>
Please show these black depictions, and please don’t try a tactic another
Afrocentric bozo – he delibrately darkened the picture.  I can guess your
proof though – statues made from a black stone, right?

Athena, Zeus and Aphrodite were never depicted as Black.  

>Ourobouros (oh you bore us) wrote:   The Blacks have never been a dominant
>force, and never will be. The Asians are the only other race with a
>potential for dominance.
>
>This is such a stupid statement I will skip right over it.  

ROTFL.  More like your incompetence.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Sat Jan 25 12:46:36 PST 1997
Article: 56934 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: ATTN Mr. C. H. Lund
Date: 24 Jan 1997 12:16:11 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <5cb5ab$fa2@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5ca7q7$kn1@gyda.ifi.uio.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1662-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article <5ca7q7$kn1@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>
>In article <5c8dun$dct@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus writes:
>> In article <5c7j60$gh4@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>> >So who are those guys he was referring to (yes, I know their names are given)?
>> >What methods did they use to reach their conclusions? Did they make their
>> >conclusions before they did any research? Did they do any research? A
>> >reference is no good if the person you're referring to is no good. If I took
>> >the time, I could probably give you references to a bunch of people who had
>> >scientifically determined that the earth is flat. Would you accept that as
>> >evidence? I hope not...
>> >
>> How they came to their results I don't know, but it is a good a place as any
>> to start from.  I never got around to reviewing those pathologists' books I was 
>> going too.  I originally gave a book that asserted the same thing, but you and
>> Finsten couldn't find it (well at least Finsten couldn't).  My research 
>> indicates that the information about Negro brains is correct, though I know
>> you balk at such an assertion.
>
>I found a list of references to books written about the flat earth. A very
>long list. It included titles, names, dates, editions, etc. Does that mean 
>that the earth really is flat?
>
I would, unlike you, be prepared to hear their arguments.  But, as I have stated
before, all the flat earthers I have encountered use it as an excuse to get
together and drink.  It is a hobby, and not a belief (they do it for the sake
of doing it.)

Your attempt at belittling my argument is, however, noted.  Yes, just because
it is written in a book doesn't mean it is right.  If you don't like it the
evidence then it is up to you to prove it wrong.  Stop this diverting nonsense
about flat earthers.

>> >"Because I didn't want too, satisfied?"
>> >-"Ourobouros" (aka "Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia", "Mr Stone", "Wormboy", "Puggy",
>> > 		"Pugnacious", "Pugnaburous", "Colin McKinstry", "Pug", 
>> >		"tale swallower", ...)
>> >
>> Why do you put these things with your signature?  Most of the names I have
>> never used for myself,
>
>So?
>
What is the point?

>> and you are hardly categorising all of the names you
>> and your comrades like using.
>
>Huh?
>
What is the point?

>> The other thing, do you actually think I am perturbed by your signature?
>
>Whether you are perturbed or not doesn't matter (yet you bothered to comment
>on it).
>
I commented on it because you must think something of it...are you trying to
intimidate me?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Sun Jan 26 02:16:45 PST 1997
Article: 56999 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.229.87.25!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Al comecola le falta el mando de su idioma natal
Date: 22 Jan 1997 12:05:39 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 129
Message-ID: <5c5ruj$al7@lex.zippo.com>
References:  <5ap2lm$dcl@lex.zippo.com> <852626912snz@augur.demon.co.uk> <5aun01$iem@lex.zippo.com> <5b0vq8$j15@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5b204f$21h@lex.zippo.com> <5b36l0$es@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5b3orj$ekh@lex.zippo.com> <5b5g6q$q9t@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b625f$7g9@lex.zippo.com> <5bdaqd$4qn@news1.ucsd.edu> <5be1dj$g99@lex.zippo.com> <853331730.6485@dejanews.com> <5bj9v4$fok@lex.zippo.com> <5c2n89$79g@news1.ucsd.edu> <5c3r1a$k49@lex.zippo.com> <853944978.28284@dejanews.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1685-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article <853944978.28284@dejanews.com>, f.ledgis@msuacad.morehead-st.edu says...
>
>In article <5c3r1a$k49@lex.zippo.com>,
>  Pugnandus wrote:
>> 
>> In article <5c2n89$79g@news1.ucsd.edu>, fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu says...
>> >
>> >Ourobouros wrote:
>> >: In article <853331730.6485@dejanews.com>, f.ledgis@msuacad.morehead-st.edu 
>says...
>> 
>> [snip]
>> 
>> [Official religion]
>> 
>> >: >I suggest you provide a definition instead of ducking.
>> >: >
>> >: Er no, I'll leave that up to you.
>> >
>> >
>> >Congratulations. You've now clearly established that you don't know
>> >what you're talking about. If you state that Canada and the US have
>> >official religions, your obligation is to know what the words you
>> >use mean.
>> >
>> >Clearly you don't.
>> >
>> I suggest you read a reply I gave to Lassie concerning official religions.  
>> Why I should have to state the obvious is beyond me.
>> 
>
>Because you are using the word in a way that it is not normally
>used. It is your job to defend your usage, no one else's.
>
Absolute rubbish.  Part of being the official religion is its exercise in 
matters of law-making, that I am afraid, is the standard usage of official
religion.

>> [The central point of the Church of England]
>> 
>> >: >> The central point of the Church of England is the monarch, who is head 
>of
>> >: >> the Church.
>> >: >
>> >: >Er, no.
>> >: >
>> >: Who else is the central point of the Church of England?  The ArchBishop of
>> >: Canterbury?
>> >
>> >A point has to be a person? Wow! 
>> 
>> ?
>
>You really lack comprehension.
>
?

What is the central point of the Church of England?

>> 
>> [Timeline for the name Anglican (unanswered by Ledgister) snipped]
>
>I referred you to Archbishop Cranmer, of whom you had never heard.
>
Thomas Cranmer, Archbishop of Canterbury?

None of references indicate he used the term "Anglican."  

He was Henry VIII's puppet, and as I said earlier, Henry's church was still
a Catholic Church -- the difference being that the monarch was at the helm
instead of the Pope.
 
>> [Religious tolerance, closing of temples, and schools]
>> 
>> >: >> Schools tended to be associated with temples.  Don't you know anything?
>> >: >
>> >: >The philosophical schools of Athens weren't.
>> >: >
>> >: Are you talking about the Sophists?
>> >
>> >
>> >Only in the sense that 'sophistes' was the general term for teachers
>> >of rhetoric and philosophy.
>> >
>> Not really.  They were the standard teachers of rhetoric and philosophy in
>> Greece, especially Athens, but there was an important difference between them 
>> and a typical school.  Do you know what that was (and I am not talking about
>> philosophy)?
>
>Yes.
>
And the difference was?

[snip]

>> >What's a state?
>> >
>> The government; territory, political, and form (kingdom, aristocracy, 
>> oligarchy, etc.) A sovereign (political) community governing over a certain 
>> territory.
>
>
>Really? I could have sworn that a state was 'that entity which
>claims, and can enforce, a monopoly over the legitimate means
>of violence within a given territory', and that this is the 
>definition which has been used by political scientists since
>the 1920s.
>
>(For further information on that subject, I suggest you look up
>Weber's _Politik als Beruf_.)
>
That still includes a feudal system.

>The definition you give above is for what, in my line of business,
>is called a 'polity' (a term which includes states, but is
>by no means coextensive with them).
>
Whoopee do.  A feudal state is still a state.  Your definition agrees with my
argument.

[snip]
 
>> Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia
>
>Mystes coming from German (attention Gord)?

No.  It is a Latin word derived from the Greek language.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Mon Jan 27 08:44:22 PST 1997
Article: 57100 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: ATTN Mr. C. H. Lund
Date: 23 Jan 1997 11:25:11 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <5c8dun$dct@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5c17fi$h47@lex.zippo.com> <5c26c0$4ak@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <5c357f$784@lex.zippo.com> <5c508d$d52@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <5c5p6j$8t8@lex.zippo.com> <5c7j60$gh4@gyda.ifi.uio.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1672-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article <5c7j60$gh4@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>
>In article <5c5p6j$8t8@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus writes:
>> In article <5c508d$d52@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>> >> >references. No, you're not vindicated. Not yet anyway.
>> >> Uh huh.
>> >> Even though you don't like his paraphrased arguments that doesn't make them
>> >> wrong.
>> >He isn't presenting facts. He's agreeing with you. That does not constitute
>> >evidence.
>> Huh?
>> He referenced the works he used.
>
>So who are those guys he was referring to (yes, I know their names are given)?
>What methods did they use to reach their conclusions? Did they make their
>conclusions before they did any research? Did they do any research? A
>reference is no good if the person you're referring to is no good. If I took
>the time, I could probably give you references to a bunch of people who had
>scientifically determined that the earth is flat. Would you accept that as
>evidence? I hope not...
>
How they came to their results I don't know, but it is a good a place as any
to start from.  I never got around to reviewing those pathologists' books I was 
going too.  I originally gave a book that asserted the same thing, but you and
Finsten couldn't find it (well at least Finsten couldn't).  My research 
indicates that the information about Negro brains is correct, though I know
you balk at such an assertion.

>	[Pugnaburous' real name]
>
>> Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia
>
>
>
>"Because I didn't want too, satisfied?"
>-"Ourobouros" (aka "Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia", "Mr Stone", "Wormboy", "Puggy",
> 		"Pugnacious", "Pugnaburous", "Colin McKinstry", "Pug", 
>		"tale swallower", ...)
>
Why do you put these things with your signature?  Most of the names I have
never used for myself, and you are hardly categorising all of the names you
and your comrades like using.

The other thing, do you actually think I am perturbed by your signature?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Mon Jan 27 08:44:24 PST 1997
Article: 57109 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!ais.net!news.texas.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.revolution.american.second,alt.politics.youth,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Question #6 To Proponets Of Multicultural Socities.
Date: 26 Jan 1997 15:02:16 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <5cgnpo$pch@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5bue79$u57@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <5buk3i$75t@lex.zippo.com> <5c973e$c5s@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <5c9o5c$af9@lex.zippo.com> <5cb4eh$om6@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <5ccpuh$eic@lex.zippo.com> <5cgh56$2ti@chaos.dac.neu.edu>
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In article <5cgh56$2ti@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>
>In article <5ccpuh$eic@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>: In article <5cb4eh$om6@chaos.dac.neu.edu>,
>: pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>: >
>: >    Almost forgot something...
>: >
>: >In article <5c9o5c$af9@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>: >: In article <5c973e$c5s@chaos.dac.neu.edu>,
>: >: pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>: >: >In article <5buk3i$75t@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>: >: >: You would hire extremely obese men as aerobic instructors or
>: >: >: ballerinas? 
>
>: >: >    No, because such a person probably would not be qualified.
>
>: >: Crap.  You are being prejudiced.  You have decided that they don't have
>: >: the qualifications.
>
>: >    Tell me this- does an obese person have control over what shape
>: >they're in?  By comparison, does a person have control of their skin
>: >color, their gender, their sexual orientation, their age?
>: >
>: >        Phil "wondering if I'll receive answers" Kasiecki
>
>: The propensity for obesity is genetically determined.
>
>    There's always something that can be done about it- excercise is
>what has to be pushed, not diets.  And, as you've said this, it would
>seem that genetics contributes to this- only adds to the possibility.
>
At what level of exercise do endomorphs need to maintain to be slim?

Endomorphs need to look at diet, exercise, and rest.  Your evaluation is
completely wrong.  They have to constantly battle their genetic make-up to
maintain a slimer look, and even then they are big.

Howabout the opposite; would you ever contemplate hiring an ectomorph as a
bouncer?  Ectomorphs are skinny runts no matter what they do -- punyverse
material.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia





From Pugnandus Mon Jan 27 10:29:47 PST 1997
Article: 57127 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: ATTN Mr. C. H. Lund
Date: 24 Jan 1997 12:05:28 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <5cb4m8$esd@lex.zippo.com>
References: <5c17fi$h47@lex.zippo.com> <5c26c0$4ak@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <5c357f$784@lex.zippo.com> <5c508d$d52@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <5c5p6j$8t8@lex.zippo.com> <32ec08a4.39877244@news.atlcom.net> <5c8dbu$cuc@lex.zippo.com> <5ca7ie$ju6@gyda.ifi.uio.no>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port1662-auck.ihug.co.nz

In article <5ca7ie$ju6@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>
>In article <5c8dbu$cuc@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus writes:
>> In article <32ec08a4.39877244@news.atlcom.net>, dckom@atlcom.net says...
>> >
>> >On 22 Jan 1997 11:18:43 -0800 c.e., Pugnandus wrote :
>> >>In article <5c508d$d52@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>> >>>> Even though you don't like his paraphrased arguments that doesn't make them
>> >>>> wrong.
>> >>>He isn't presenting facts. He's agreeing with you. That does not constitute
>> >>>evidence.
>> >>Huh?
>> >>He referenced the works he used.
>> >Yo Pugsly,
>> >Referenced eh? A question. Have you actually read his source material? Or
>
>	[snip]
>
>> >own divinity. No wonder a mere racialist could thrash you in debate.
>> >
>> Uh huh.  Whether they have standing amongst anthropologists or not is 
>> irrelevant.  If you don't like it, you disprove it.
>> Magic pieces of paper have never impressed me.
>
>Yet you're into alchemy.
>
That doesn't mean I believe in magic.  Alchemy doesn't have magic pieces of
paper like an University.

>> Lastly, if I am so poor at debating, why do I defeat you and your comrades so
>> easily in debating?
>
>Uh, have you *ever* defeated any of us? You're beginning to sound like Saddam
>Hussein claiming to have won the gulf war.
>
Let me see, your argument of the architecture of Zimbabwe fell down, then there
is all the times concerning the PC bigots definition of discrimination, and
prejudice, then there is the arguments over the Aryans, Ancient Egypt, 
Babylonia, Spain, the interwar period, Rome, Greece, Mesoamerica, Polynesians,
Peru, Sumeria, all the times I have engaged McVay in a debate, the various
holocaust arguments that I have gotten into, the (lack of) importance of 
spelling bees, the original people of Jerusalem, what fullers are about, the
swords used circa 1500 BC, and of course my regular sparring partners, you,
"Brown", and Finsten, are more often than not defeated by me -- I have lost
one or two arguments against "Brown."

The true list is far more encompassing, but they are all the major bouts.

>>  Obviously a mere racialist is more intelligent, has a
>> far greater understanding, and is better in everyway than the best PC bigot.
>
>Can you give some examples of this? Most racialists I've encountered are
>borderline illiterates, uneducated, uncultured, social losers.
>
The only racialists you know are the ones the media tells you about.

I can almost guarantee I know more topics at a greater depth that you do.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Mon Jan 27 10:29:48 PST 1997
Article: 57128 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: White folks too dumb for freedom of religion. Was Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: 24 Jan 1997 11:48:09 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
Lines: 214
Message-ID: <5cb3lp$eei@lex.zippo.com>
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In article <5ca792$j1o@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
>
>In article <5c7iuc$e9u@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus writes:
>> In article <5c7ee6$cob@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...
>
[snip]

>> >The difference between my list and your's is that my list contains things that
>> >don't work, while the items on yours do. And have you ever stopped to think of
>> >the historical simularities between astrology and alchemy? When all the
>> >mystical babble was removed from the two, we ended up with astronomy and
>> >chemistry. So now, astronomy and chemistry are sciences, while astrology and
>> >alchemy are, well, new age pseudo-sciences.
>> >
>> I agree to a point.  Alchemy (non-new age) has progressed, just like medicine
>> has.
>
>In what way has alchemy progressed? What great scientific breakthroughs
>has been done in the name of alchemy since the appearance of chemistry?
>Look at astrology.
>
I am not interested in astrology.  Alchemy is the embodiment of all sciences
minus astronomy.

>>  Unless you have something meaningful to say on the topic I suggest you
>> drop it.
>
>When did you ever have anything meaningful to say?
>
Huh?  This is alt.politics.white-power you know.  I say many meaningful things
here, it is you that lacks meaning.

>	[snip]
>
>> >> I have already done this years ago.  Do you know how I became racialist?  I
>> >> became racialist when I was confronted by overwhelming evidence, and I was
>> >> totally thrashed in an argument with one racialist.
>> >
>> >So why don't you share this overwhelming evidence with us? Make a few converts.
>> >
>> I couldn't convert a fly.  Did I tell you I was brought up in a fundamentalist
>> Christian outfit (only one brother remains)?
>
>So you changed religion: Fundie Christian => Racist Bigot.
>
Bah ha ha.

I somehow doubt that.

>>  Evangelising on the street was a
>> compulsory as well as annoying everybody you met.  It taught me one classic
>> point: I CAN'T CONVERT NOBODY.
>
>I agree with you here.
>
Good, so stop asking stupid questions about me changing people's attitudes.

>>  I lack both persuasion and charm,
>
>Still with you.
>
>> and people
>> (generally) don't like being at the receiving end of my ribaldry (which I have
>> in spades.)
>
>So what about these non-"white" "friends" you claim to have?
>
What about them?

>> The other major point: it took days of conversation -- I didn't go easily, and
>> quite simply put, the Church that I grew up in left a bad taste in my mouth to
>> people trying to persuade me in any direction.  Re-writing the conversation is
>> a near impossible reconstruction, especially when I have no obligation to do 
>> so -- I don't really care about converting anyone.  If you don't want to 
>> believe in races that is your beef.
>
>Like I said; you went from one religion to another. Since you aren't willing
>to put up these "overwhelming arguments", I will have to assume your
>conversion was based entirely on charisma on his part and ignorance on yours.
>
Saying I went to another religion doesn't mean a thing.  I can easily claim 
that you are religious in the same context.

The person I spoke with is similar to me, no charisma.  Yes, I suppose I was
ignorant, that is way I investigated it rather than put a dampener on it, like
you.  Yes, we are quite different, I like to investigate what I am told, but
you only believe the media and what the box tells you.

>	[snip]
>
>> >> I spent some years verifying what I confronted with
>> >> to make sure it was correct.
>> >Again, where's this overwhelming evidence?
>> I give it out in drips and drabs.
>
>So where are these drips and drabs?
>
It is a saying that means I give it out in little pieces at varying stages.

>	[snip]
>
>> >> >>  Be PC like you?
>> >> >Since you define "PC" as being "non-racist", yes. However, that definition is
>> >> >wrong.
>> >> Er no.  There are other aspects to being PC:
>> >> anti-sexualist (you are),
>> >Correct. So you think women belong in the kitchen?
>> Crude, but basically right.  Women have their roles, men have their roles.
>
>As a general rule; a bigot is rarely bigoted against only one thing. You prove
>that rule.
>
?

Please state your point.

>> >> animal lover (check your own website),
>> >Huh? I'm not going to argue with you. Yet. But I'd like to know what you mean
>> >by animal lover, and how my website gave you that idea.
>> I do recall you being against animal activists, but you say they have a point.
>
>Oh, you mean my comments against the ALF. Yet I support whaling and
>sealhunting. *VERY* un-PC indeed. Oh well.
>
A token gesture.

>	[etc]
>
>> >> and etc.
>> >
>> >Please elaborate on the "etc".
>> >
>> I would have to go through your old posts and construct that, something I am
>> not prepared to do.  One example is your disbelief in races.  It fits in snugly
>> with the other irrational PC beliefs.
>
>My "disbelief" in races stems from the total lack of evidence that such a
>thing exists. Again, assuming you are talking about *species*. All humans
>are Homo Sapiens.
>
Your disbelief comes from wilful ignorance, and not from a lack of evidence.
If you bothered to read relevant books you would know there are races (and I
don't mean Natsee books either -- just to be pre-emptive.)

>> >> >> Can you prove beyond shadow of a doubt that your real name is Christopher 
>> >> >> Henrik Lund on the Internet?
>> >> >If you're in doubt, contact my sysop. Or anyone else at the university,
>> >> >for that matter.
>> >> I said on the Internet. 
>> >> What you are stating is verification off the Internet.
>> >You can contact my sysop via the internet. You can contact "anyone else at the 
>> >university" via the internet. If that would be verification "off the
>> >internet", than this conversation is also "off the internet".
>
>Flatulence:
>> *sigh*
>
>> You delibrately miss the point.
>
>Nope. I'm not even sure you have one; try using a teaspoon.
>
The point, which you seem to always miss, is that there is no real way* of
validating someone's true identity.  That has to be done off the Internet.
While you say I can contact so and so, that is off the Internet, and can mean
doing a wild goose chase, which is especially true when dealing with an
University.

* As in thorough-proof.

>	[snip]
>
>> >> I am afraid men were
>> >> using women's names for authorship.
>> >Uh.. ok. What point are you trying to make anyway?
>> I am undermining your argument in the use of pseudonyms.
>
>In what way does that undermine my argument?
>
Think boy think.

Your argument for people using pseudonyms is?

Does this line up with the historical uses of pseudonyms?

Sometimes, sometimes not.  You demonstrate that you are highly prejudiced once
again.

>> >> Btw, I do run the risk of being heavily fined or imprisoned.
>> >Really? Do they have laws like that in NZ? That's a pity. Here in Norway,
>> >you'd have become a laughing stock, but you wouldn't be risking fines or
>> >imprisonment.
>> I gave the law quotes in my reply to "Brown's" questions of Bob Whitaker.  I
>> doubt I would be the laughing stock in Norway, as I have a tendency to be 
>> quite cruel in my conversations.
>
>I haven't noticed any of your cruelty yet.
>
So?

>> >>  Who knows about
>> >> being tortured or "committed suicide"?
>> >And then again, maybe you're just being paranoid. Seems there's a lot of that
>> >going around in the right wings...
>> I was giving extreme scenerios.  Didn't someone recently post an article of a
>> white woman in the states who is basically being tortured (brutalised) in
>> prison?
>
>Judging by what I hear about US prisons, *anyone* risks torture, regardless of
>skin color.
>
I believe this was posted in regard to the staff of the prison.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 28 06:47:40 PST 1997
Article: 94831 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Richard Hernandez Asks for Proof that Six Million Were Killed
Date: 25 Jan 1997 20:11:44 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com says...
>
>In article <5ca1va$f8i@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>> In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>says...
>> >
>> >In article <5c4gte$3kt@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article , dkeren@world.std.com says...
>> >> >
>> >> >Pugnandus writes:
>> >> >
>> >> ># We supposedly have answers for two things on the process. 
>> >> ># How many more are needed for the rest?  How many SS-men are
>> >> ># needed to check on the so-called sonderkommando for honesty?
>> >> >
>> >> >I have already told you that there were never more than a few
>> >> >thousand SS-men in Auschwitz; usually, 2,000 or so. In other
>> >> >camps, there were less.
>> >> >
>> >> I SAID, how many SS-men or whatever are needed to check the so-called
>sonder-
>> >> kommando for honesty?  If you are going to claim fantastic numbers then you
>> >> also need to prove the feasible number of SS-men were able to do what
>you say
>> >> they can.
>> >
>> >There were evidently only a handful of SS men in the Kremas who commanded
>> >the Sonderkommandos. The SS men were armed and quite willing to deal out
>> >summary execution and brutal coproral punishment to any Sonderkommando who
>> >disobeyed them. Furthermore, lest we forget, the Krema compounds
>> >themselves were surrounded by electrified fences and heaviily armed
>> >watchtowers etc.
>> >
>> How many SS men are needed to keep the Sonderkommandos honest?
>
>Oh, I see _now_, another silly canard by Mr. McKinstry! And praytell, what
>does the "honesty" of the Sonderkommado have to do with how many guards
>there were? 
>
Nothing to an irrational man.

>> Having electrical fences and heavily armed watchtowers does not necessarily
>> make men honest.
>
>No, but it keeps them from _escaping_. 
>
And?

>> >> ># How much of your engineering force is needed to construct 
>> >> ># fantastic, never seen before, never repeated again holocaust
>> >> ># devices,
>> >> >
>> >> >"fantastic, never seen before"? What nonsense.
>> >> >
>> >> Oh?
>> >> 
>> >> Cremetoriums that burn a fantastic number of bodies, the equipment
>needed to
>> >> pump out the cynanide gas, and etc.  Someone has to design that you
>know, and
>> >> usually you need people with techical know-how to build them.
>> >
>> >Indeed. Topf & Sons built them. Besides building the incineration furnaces
>> >and ventilation systems of tye Kremas for the SS, Topf was aslo well known
>> >in Germany for building industrial blast furnaces. Does Mr. McKinstry
>> >claim that building incineration furnaces and ventilation systems was
>> >_more_ difficult than building industrial blast furnaces? 
>> >
>> I, Pugnandus, would say designing and building these magic cremetoriums is
>> more difficult.
>
>Then, Mr. McKinstry, I suggest you start offering your accredited
>engeeiring opinions, with reference to the design and construction of the
>Kremas, detailing  specifically how contructing the Topf incineration
>furnaces and Krema shell was "more difficult" than constructing an
>industrial blast furnace and the building that would hold it. 
>
>I remember once visiting Kaiser Steel in Fontanna (CA) and watching the
>huge blast furnaces smelt iron ore. The facility was enourmous. Looking at
>pictures and drawings of the Topf furnace and the Kremas, noting how puny
>and simple they are in comaparison. _I_ would say that Mr. McKinstry is
>full of shit.
>
What temperature does iron ore need?

You shot your own foot, btw.  Topf furface are puny and simple compared to the
Kaiser Steel mill.  I'll let you figure it out, but I would say it proves that
you are the one full of shit.

>> What are your reasons for giving me a name that is not mine (re: Mr. 
>> McKinstry)?
>
>Prove it is not yours, Mr. McKinstry. As to why I use your name instead of
>your nym?  I dislike nyms.
>
Very well: the name doe not exist anywhere on my birth certificate, passport,
or any other form of identification.  

I believe I met the man to whom you call McKinstry yesterday.  It wasn't his
real name, but he name was similar -- first name started with "C", and surname
started with "Mck', but he claimed to be one in the same.  He asked how
Joan Kowelski and Elisha Mills were doing -- obviously two pro-white posters
that used to post here as well.
 
>> >> ># when Germany needed them to build fighting machines (tanks,
>> >> ># fighter planes, fortress construction, demolitions and so on)?
>> >> >
>> >> >This is really idiotic. Building a gas chamber is such a big
>> >> >deal? More so when you have slave labor to do it, and the gas
>> >> >chambers were indeed built by slave laborers? 
>> >> >
>> >> It is the special equipment that goes with the gas chamber that is the 
>> >> problem, or are you being especially stupid?
>> >
>> >What _special_ equipment is Mr. McKinstry taalking about? Surely not the
>> >furnaces or ventilation system, whose engineering and manufacturing
>> >principles were well understood by the Topf engineers. 
>> >
>> *sigh*
>> 
>> So none of the Topf engineers were ever recruited for the war effort?  Is this
>> a 100% fact that I can quote to anybody with your name attached?  
>
>You are evading the question, Mr. McKinstry. Again: 
>
>What _special_ equipment is Mr. McKinstry taalking about? Surely not the
>furnaces or ventilation system, whose engineering and manufacturing
>principles were well understood by the Topf engineers. 
>
One would have thought someone with a modicum of intelligence knew what I was
referring too.  Despite your feeble attempt at belittling I was referring to
the furnaces and ventilation systems.

> If not, shut up.
>
>Mr. McKinstry may first kiss my ass. 
>
Was/is Mr. McKinstry a homosexual?

[snip]

>> >> ># Why wasn't there young men around? 
>> >> >
>> >> >What? What are you talking about? What young men were not where?
>> >> >
>> >> You were the one asserting that the camps were mainly filled with
>everybody 
>> >> except young men.
>> >
>> >Indeed. The _labor_ camps of Auschwitz were indeed filled with young men
>> >(and women) who survived selection for the gas chambers. 
>> >
>> >  Not according to Daniel Keren. 
>
>Incorrect. Dr. Keren is quite well aware that the Auschwitz complex was
>_both_ a labor and externination comlplex. Only the Auschwitz II-Birkeanua
>camp was an extermination camp. Auschwitz I and III (Monowitz), as well as
>the multitude of Auschwitz's sattelite camps, were labor camps. 
>
>That Mr. Mr. McKinstry's speciously chooses to "interpret" Dr. Keren's
>responses at meaning other than Dr. Keren obviously meant is nothing more
>than Mr. McKinstry being his typical self: a dishonest turd. 
>
Uh huh.  You can claim anything, but it doesn't make it true.

>> When both of you have decided what the official
>> story is, please come back and tell me.
>
>We're baaaack! (Gee, that was quick.) 
>
>The "official story," Mr. McKinstry, is that you are a dishonest turd.
>
Uh huh.  You can claim anything, but it doesn't make it true.  

>> >> Did they magically disappear?
>> >
>> >No. Thousands survived the death marches when Auschwitz was evacuated.
>> >However, Tens of thousands, however, didn't survive. They died of disease,
>> >starvation, privation, brutality, and were worked either to death or to
>> >the point where they were "unfit for work," at which time they were sent
>> >to the gas chambers and killed. 
>> >
>> Ah, but according to Daniel Keren they weren't there (or rather in very small
>> numbers), so who am I to believe?
>
>That you are a dishonest turd. Trust me. 
>
I somehow doubt I would trust an ignoramus.

>> >The Sonderkommando too was comprised of young, healthy, strong men. They
>> >were rarely worked to death and were not starved. They enjoyed one of the
>> >highest, if not _the_ highest standards of living a prisoner at Auschwoitz
>> >could. They were also routinely sent to the gas chambers en masse and
>> >killed. (Dead men tell no tales.) 
>> >
>> That is your story, Daniel Keren has another.
>
>Nope. You distorted what Dr. Keren wrote. You are a dishonest turd.
>
Please prove I distorted what Mr. Keren wrote?

Saying I am a dishonest turd doesn't make me one, despite your repetition --
I take it that is how you establish your facts?  Not by proving anything (note
your reluctance to prove that I am Mr. Mckinstry), but by constantly mouthing
off.

>> Do you think people in the sonderkommando would notice their fellow sonder-
>> kommando disappearing, or are you saying that the SS men wiped out a batch
>> and started over again with a new batch?
>
>The SS typically killed them all at once and selected a new baych
>Sonderkommandos from the Jews of the next "special action." Only a few
>Sonderkommando, generally ones with special skills, survived for any
>length of time, as they were often transferred to another Krema. Some of
>the Sonderkommandos managed to survive due to the chaos caused by the
>hasty evacuation of Auschwitz and the death marches away from it. 
>
What were the tasks of the sonderkommandos?

>> >> ># Where they only shipping the useless for slave labour? 
>> >> >
>> >> >The elderly, sick, etc. were murdered and not used for slave
>> >> >labor. This is well documented. Why don't you read the documents
>> >> >your Nazi heroes wrote about this?
>> >> >
>> >> So where were the young men?
>> >
>> >Some were. Most weren't. 
>> >
>> Huh?
>> 
>> >> ># So how did they keep them from escaping, rioting or whatever?
>> >> >
>> >> >How many armed men do you need to watch over unarmed prisoners?
>> >> >Sometimes, they indeed rioted. Most were killed, some escaped.
>> >> >
>> >> I wouldn't know, that is why I am asking an expert like you.
>> >
>> >The Sonderkommando revolt of October 7, 1944, reminds one, even when the
>> >some couple of hundred Sonderkommando of Krema IV revolted, the watchtower
>> >guards and the SS security battallion at Birkenau crushed the revolt
>> >killing some 250 Sonderkommandos while suffering only three SS men killed.
>> >(cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.516.) 
>> >
>> Why didn't the rest get involved?
>
>Some Sonerkommando in Krema II tried. They tossed the Kapo and an SS man
>into he furnaces alive and tried to escape. No one made it. 
>
Are you saying that only the sonderkommando existed in the "Auchwitz" complex?

>Why don't _you_ read about it, McKinstry, instead of asking questions you
>_should_ already know? Try Gutman's _Anatomy_ or Nyiszli's _Auschwitz_,
>for example. 
>
No, I don't know, that is why I am asking questions from the experts.  I do
know that experts on the holocaust like to call anyone asking questions 
dishonest turds, now.

As I told Mike Curtis before, the Holocaust is not my forte.  I know wee bits
and pieces, but that is all.

>> [snip]
>> >
>> >> ># so please cut the crap about secret death rays,
>> >> >
>> >> >If the "leading revisionist scholar", crazy Ernst Zundel, believes
>> >> >that the Nazis built "secret UFO's", and flew them into the center
>> >> >of the earth through a "hole in the South-Pole", than why not
>> >> >death rays? 
>> >> >
>> >> I wouldn't know, having never read any of Ernst Zundel's books.  Can
>you back
>> >> this up (in context)?
>> >
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/z/zundel.ernst/flying-saucers
>> >http://search.nizkor.org/hweb/people/z/zundel-ernst/flying-saucers/
>> >
>> IOW Daniel Keren is fond of exaggerating and telling half-truths?
>
>Nope. That you are a dishonest turd. 
>
Huh?

>> >For those interested in evidence of Mr. Mckinstry's  (a.k.a. Stone,
>> >Ourobouros, and Pugnandus) Holocaust denial, anti-Semitism,  bigotry and
>> >racism,  intellectual dishonesty, and outright lies, please visit:
>> >
>> >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/m/mckinstry.colin
>> >
>> Ah, we have the real reason why you think that I am Colin McKinstry. If McVay
>> uses his peanut then it must be correct.  If McVay threw himself off a shear
>> cliff with jagged rocks at the bottom, would you also do so?  If McVay 
>> believes it is correct then it must be correct, mustn't it?
>
>Prove that you aren't Mr. McKonstry, Mr. McKinstry. Meanwhile: 
>
I take it you are evading the questions?  Is this typical behaviour of true 
believers?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 28 07:23:15 PST 1997
Article: 57197 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.aloha.net!svr1.pdx.gstis.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!drn
From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.revolution.american.second,alt.politics.youth,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Question #6 To Proponets Of Multicultural Socities.
Date: 25 Jan 1997 03:14:25 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
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References: <5bue79$u57@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <5buk3i$75t@lex.zippo.com> <5c973e$c5s@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <5c9o5c$af9@lex.zippo.com> <5cb4eh$om6@chaos.dac.neu.edu>
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In article <5cb4eh$om6@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>
>    Almost forgot something...
>
>In article <5c9o5c$af9@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>: In article <5c973e$c5s@chaos.dac.neu.edu>,
>: pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>: >In article <5buk3i$75t@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>: >: You would hire extremely obese men as aerobic instructors or
>: >: ballerinas? 
>
>: >    No, because such a person probably would not be qualified.
>
>: Crap.  You are being prejudiced.  You have decided that they don't have
>: the qualifications.
>
>    Tell me this- does an obese person have control over what shape
>they're in?  By comparison, does a person have control of their skin
>color, their gender, their sexual orientation, their age?
>
>        Phil "wondering if I'll receive answers" Kasiecki
>
The propensity for obesity is genetically determined.

The three main body types:

Ectomorph, mesomorph, and endomorph.

Those with endomorphic body types are invariably fat.

Ectomorphs are those people that can eat and eat without putting on much weight
and remain skinny throughout their lives.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 28 07:23:17 PST 1997
Article: 57198 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.revolution.american.second,alt.politics.youth,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Question #6 To Proponets Of Multicultural Socities.
Date: 25 Jan 1997 03:08:57 -0800
Organization: Order of Alchemists
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In article <5cb47l$om6@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>
>In article <5c9o5c$af9@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>: In article <5c973e$c5s@chaos.dac.neu.edu>,
>: pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>: >
>: >In article <5buk3i$75t@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>
>: [snip]
>
>: >: Very well:
>: >
>: >: So you are saying that you would quite freely hire someone with mental
>: >: retardation to be the managing director of a large and important
>: >: company? 
>
>: >    No, because such a person is probably not qualified.  But, that's
>: >not prejudice.
>
>: What if they lowered the standard for qualifications?  
>
>    Depends on how much the standard is lowered
>
Standards tend to be getting lower by the year...

>: >: So you would freely hire a blind man for the position of interior
>: >: designer? 
>
>: >    No, because he probably would not be qualified.
>
>: You are being prejudiced.
>
>    Bullshit.  Prove to me that it's the same as not hiring someone
>because of the color of their skin, whether they're male or female, or
>what their sexual orientation is.
>
Sorry, I first have to establish a foundation before continuing.  Now, are you
prejudiced against the blind?

>(rest snipped- I misspoke here, but it's beside the point I'm about to
>make)
>
>: Crap.  You are being prejudiced.  You have decided that they don't have
>: the qualifications.
>
>    Actually, you still don't understand what prejudice is, so frankly,
>you can say I'm prejudiced all you want, that doesn't take away from the
>fact that it's false (I'll admit that I didn't state a couple of things
>the way I meant them in this- but that's pretty irrelevant at this
>point).
>
Er no.

I can say your prejudiced because you are.

Tell me, if someone admits they are racialist, what goes through your mind at
that announcement?

While you say blah, blah, blah about things people cannot change, like being
blind, that is not the complete definition.  Prejudiced is making a pre-
judgement.

People do not advertise women's products (bras, menstrual pads, etc.) by using
men.

Taking care in the sun is necessary for Whites, not Blacks, so it is extremely
unlikely for advertisers to use Blacks in their advertisements (if they are
wise.)

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 28 07:23:17 PST 1997
Article: 57199 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.immigration,alt.revolution.american.second,alt.politics.youth,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.correct
Subject: Re: Question #6 To Proponets Of Multicultural Socities.
Date: 26 Jan 1997 14:50:19 -0800
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In article <5cghc1$2ti@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>
>In article <5ccpk9$egr@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>: In article <5cb47l$om6@chaos.dac.neu.edu>,
>: pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>: >In article <5c9o5c$af9@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>: >: In article <5c973e$c5s@chaos.dac.neu.edu>,
>: >: pkasieck@lynx.dac.neu.edu says...
>: >: >In article <5buk3i$75t@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:
>: >
>: >: [snip]
>
>: >: >    No, because he probably would not be qualified.
>
>: >: You are being prejudiced.
>
>: >    Bullshit.  Prove to me that it's the same as not hiring someone
>: >because of the color of their skin, whether they're male or female, or
>: >what their sexual orientation is.
>
>: Sorry, I first have to establish a foundation before continuing.  Now,
>: are you prejudiced against the blind?
>
>    No.  I worded my response the wrong way- I should have said
>"probably not, because chances are, the person won't be qualified.  But
>I couldn't say for certain unless I'm evaluating the candidates for the
>job.
>
ROFTL -- I love hearing PC language in action.

You can easily say that, doing it is another thing entirely.

>: I can say your prejudiced because you are.
>
>    Well, you can- doesn't make it true, though.
>
Time will tell.

>: Tell me, if someone admits they are racialist, what goes through your
>: mind at that announcement?
>
>    They have control over that.  No one is born that way.
>
So Hitler could have turned out differently?

>: While you say blah, blah, blah about things people cannot change, like
>: being blind, that is not the complete definition.  Prejudiced is
>: making a pre-judgement.
>
>    ...on an improper basis, that is.
>
No, it is not.  Prejudicism is purely making a pre-judgement.  To survive 
people need to be prejudiced.  Not even your idols, the B'nai B'rith (The
Prejudice Book), go along with you.  Being prejudiced stops you from doing
foolish things.  Things like falling from extreme heights (without a parachute
for the pedantic out there.)  There is a chance you can land without injury -- 
I believe 18,000 feet is the record for no injuries.

>: People do not advertise women's products (bras, menstrual pads, etc.)
>: by using men.
>
>    Actually, Joe Namath was in a nylon commercial years ago.

I would assume he was there for comic relief -- I have never seen the advertise-
ment.

>: Taking care in the sun is necessary for Whites, not Blacks
>
>    This is patently false.
>
*sigh*

Yes, even Blacks need to respect the Sun, BUT at what ratio to Whites?  Don't
all you apologists say how great Negro skin is under the sun?

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia


From Pugnandus Tue Jan 28 15:00:32 PST 1997
Article: 57258 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Pugnandus
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Richard Hernandez Asks for Proof that Six Million Were Killed
Date: 27 Jan 1997 18:08:38 -0800
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In article , mvanalst@rbi.com says...
>
>In article <5celi0$3la@lex.zippo.com>, Pugnandus wrote:

[snip]

>
>> >> >There were evidently only a handful of SS men in the Kremas who commanded
>> >> >the Sonderkommandos. The SS men were armed and quite willing to deal out
>> >> >summary execution and brutal coproral punishment to any Sonderkommando who
>> >> >disobeyed them. Furthermore, lest we forget, the Krema compounds
>> >> >themselves were surrounded by electrified fences and heaviily armed
>> >> >watchtowers etc.
>> >> >
>> >> How many SS men are needed to keep the Sonderkommandos honest?
>> >
>> >Oh, I see _now_, another silly canard by Mr. McKinstry! And praytell, what
>> >does the "honesty" of the Sonderkommado have to do with how many guards
>> >there were? 
>> >
>> Nothing to an irrational man.
>
>In other words, nothing period.
>
...to an irrational man.

>> >> Having electrical fences and heavily armed watchtowers does not necessarily
>> >> make men honest.
>> >
>> >No, but it keeps them from _escaping_. 
>> >
>> And?
>
>And they can get shot or electrocuted if they try to escape. (Or blown up
>when if step on a mine if they get past the fence.) 
>
It doesn't mean that cannot steal and use them to trade with the lower guards
or whatever, Mr. Stuart Pidley.

>> >> >Indeed. Topf & Sons built them. Besides building the incineration furnaces
>> >> >and ventilation systems of tye Kremas for the SS, Topf was aslo well known
>> >> >in Germany for building industrial blast furnaces. Does Mr. McKinstry
>> >> >claim that building incineration furnaces and ventilation systems was
>> >> >_more_ difficult than building industrial blast furnaces? 
>> >> >
>> >> I, Pugnandus, would say designing and building these magic cremetoriums is
>> >> more difficult.
>> >
>> >Then, Mr. McKinstry, I suggest you start offering your accredited
>> >engeeiring opinions, with reference to the design and construction of the
>> >Kremas, detailing  specifically how contructing the Topf incineration
>> >furnaces and Krema shell was "more difficult" than constructing an
>> >industrial blast furnace and the building that would hold it. 
>> >
>> >I remember once visiting Kaiser Steel in Fontanna (CA) and watching the
>> >huge blast furnaces smelt iron ore. The facility was enourmous. Looking at
>> >pictures and drawings of the Topf furnace and the Kremas, noting how puny
>> >and simple they are in comaparison. _I_ would say that Mr. McKinstry is
>> >full of shit.
>> >
>> What temperature does iron ore need?
>
>The melting point of iron is 1535°C. (cf. Ebbing, _General Chemistry_, p.925.) 
>
>
>Now, will Mr. McKinstry, start offering his accredited engeeiring
>opinions, with reference to the design and construction of the Kremas,
>detailing  specifically how contructing the Topf incineration furnaces and
>Krema shell was "more difficult" than constructing an industrial blast
>furnace and the building that would hold it? 
>
>Or will he, being a "brave" Nazi, run away to lie another day? 
>
You'd have to give me the facts and figures first.  I wait, Mr. Stuart Pidley.

>> You shot your own foot, btw.  Topf furface are puny and simple compared to the
>> Kaiser Steel mill.  
>
>Which was my _point_, Mr. McKinstry! If Topf, could build industrial blast
>furnaces, why would a "puny and simple" furnace like that made for the
>concentration camps be too difficult for Topf to make? 
>
>It wouldn't be, of course. 
>
Output please?  Fuel comsumption please?  Technological level of Nazi Germany
compared to today's industry?  Are you suggesting that the simple and puny
furnaces could produce similar results as a modern industrial blast furnace?

>> I'll let you figure it out, but I would say it proves that
>> you are the one full of shit.
>
>Er, no. What _is_ proved, Mr. McKinstry is that you are indeed a moron who
>is full of shit.
>
I wait for your detailed response, before commenting on your childish 
behaviour, Mr. Stuart Pidley.

>> >> What are your reasons for giving me a name that is not mine (re: Mr. 
>> >> McKinstry)?
>> >
>> >Prove it is not yours, Mr. McKinstry. As to why I use your name instead of
>> >your nym?  I dislike nyms.
>> >
>> Very well: the name doe not exist anywhere on my birth certificate, passport,
>> or any other form of identification.  
>
>Prove it.
>
Since I don't want to give away my real name, how?  What would you accept as
proof, Mr. Stuart Pidley?

>[snip]
>
>> >> So none of the Topf engineers were ever recruited for the war effort?  Is 
>> >> this a 100% fact that I can quote to anybody with your name attached?  
>> >
>> >You are evading the question, Mr. McKinstry. Again: 
>> >
>> >What _special_ equipment is Mr. McKinstry taalking about? Surely not the
>> >furnaces or ventilation system, whose engineering and manufacturing
>> >principles were well understood by the Topf engineers. 
>> >
>> One would have thought someone with a modicum of intelligence knew what I was
>> referring too.  
>
>I'd rather have you be explicit, Mr. McKinstry. Your habit of trying to
>weasel out of your claims preceedes you. 
>
It does?  Examples?  Or are you a moron full of shit?

>> ...Despite your feeble attempt at belittling I was referring to
>> the furnaces and ventilation systems.
>
>And again, Mr. McKinstry,  how would a "puny and simple" furnace like that
>used at Auschwitz be beyond the technical and manufacturing expertise of
>Topf, the manufacturer of industrial blast furnaces? 
>
I await your detailed response for the above, Mrs. Lipstat.

>As to the ventilatoin system, is Mr. McKinstry suggesting that installing
>electric motors, blowers, ducting- all items found in industrial foundries
>-was beyond the expertise of Topf's enginners and fitters as well? All
>without a _shred_ of evidence to support any such claim? 
>
How often were they in use, their mean capacity, and their top potential?

Did Topf produce modern industrial foundries?

>If so, then Mr. McKinstry indeed proves himself full of shit.
>
Uh huh.

>> > If not, shut up.
>> >
>> >Mr. McKinstry may first kiss my ass. 
>> >
>> Was/is Mr. McKinstry a homosexual?
>
>Gee, _I_ haven't the slightest idea if Mr. McKinstry is gay or not. (For
>all I know Mr. McKinstry likes to screw sheep or something equally
>repulsive.)  One would think Mr. McKinstry would know the answer to _that_
>question!
>
Then why don't you ask him, Mr. Stuart Pidley?

>> [snip]
>
>> >Incorrect. Dr. Keren is quite well aware that the Auschwitz complex was
>> >_both_ a labor and externination comlplex. Only the Auschwitz II-Birkeanua
>> >camp was an extermination camp. Auschwitz I and III (Monowitz), as well as
>> >the multitude of Auschwitz's sattelite camps, were labor camps. 
>> >
>> >That Mr. Mr. McKinstry's speciously chooses to "interpret" Dr. Keren's
>> >responses at meaning other than Dr. Keren obviously meant is nothing more
>> >than Mr. McKinstry being his typical self: a dishonest turd. 
>> >
>> Uh huh.  You can claim anything, but it doesn't make it true.
>
>Such a "rebuttal!" Of course, given that it _is_ true, there's not much
>Mr. McKinstry _can_ do except whine about it! 
>
Er no, Mrs Finsten.  

>[McKinstry's whining snipped]
>
Uh huh.  More like you are a loser, Mr. Brown.

>> >> Do you think people in the sonderkommando would notice their fellow sonder-
>> >> kommando disappearing, or are you saying that the SS men wiped out a batch
>> >> and started over again with a new batch?
>> >
>> >The SS typically killed them all at once and selected a new baych
>> >Sonderkommandos from the Jews of the next "special action." Only a few
>> >Sonderkommando, generally ones with special skills, survived for any
>> >length of time, as they were often transferred to another Krema. Some of
>> >the Sonderkommandos managed to survive due to the chaos caused by the
>> >hasty evacuation of Auschwitz and the death marches away from it. 
>> >
>> What were the tasks of the sonderkommandos?
>
>Why doesn't Mr. McKinstry get off his lazy ass and research this himself? 
>
Why should I?  ar is supposedly full of experts.  Would it not be simpler asking
them, or are you suggesting you and your comrades don't know much, and are 
morons full of shit?

>[snip]
>
>> >> >> ># So how did they keep them from escaping, rioting or whatever?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >How many armed men do you need to watch over unarmed prisoners?
>> >> >> >Sometimes, they indeed rioted. Most were killed, some escaped.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> I wouldn't know, that is why I am asking an expert like you.
>> >> >
>> >> >The Sonderkommando revolt of October 7, 1944, reminds one, even when the
>> >> >some couple of hundred Sonderkommando of Krema IV revolted, the watchtower
>> >> >guards and the SS security battallion at Birkenau crushed the revolt
>> >> >killing some 250 Sonderkommandos while suffering only three SS men killed.
>> >> >(cf. Gutman, _Anatomy_, p.516.) 
>> >> >
>> >> Why didn't the rest get involved?
>> >
>> >Some Sonerkommando in Krema II tried. They tossed the Kapo and an SS man
>> >into he furnaces alive and tried to escape. No one made it. 
>> >
>> Are you saying that only the sonderkommando existed in the "Auchwitz" complex?
>
>No. The Sonderkommados worked in the Kremas and bunkers of Birkenau. There
>were plenty of prisoners in _other_ sections of Birkenau and in the other
>main camps and their sattelite camps.  Why doesn't Mr. McKinstry get off
>his lazy ass and research this himself before asking such stupid
>questions? 
>
Why?  If you are such an expert then you should already know the answers, unless
of course you are asserting you are a moron full of shit, Mr. McVay.

>> >Why don't _you_ read about it, McKinstry, instead of asking questions you
>> >_should_ already know? Try Gutman's _Anatomy_ or Nyiszli's _Auschwitz_,
>> >for example. 
>> >
>> No, I don't know, that is why I am asking questions from the experts.  
>
>And yet, when given answers, Mr. McKinstry riducules them and plays dumb.
>Like a dishonest turd. 
>
Obviously you are well acquainted with the behaviour of dishonest turds, are
you one, Mr. Stuart Pidley?

>> I do know that experts on the holocaust like to call anyone asking questions 
>> dishonest turds, now.
>
>You are not merely "asking questions," Mr.McKinstry. Far from it. You are
>employing peurile denier games to ridicule and discredit those who would
>answer questions about the Holocaust and the Hiolocaust itself. _That_ is
>why you are such a dishonest turd.
>
Ever since a Jehovah Witness annoyed me years ago, I held the Holocaust in
disrepute, disbelieving what I had been told -- that 6 million Jews were the 
only casualities of the holocaust (I never questioned it before then).  You and
your claims mean nothing without the relevant proof to back it up.  

>> As I told Mike Curtis before, the Holocaust is not my forte.  I know wee bits
>> and pieces, but that is all.
>
>Indeed. To wit:
>
>"It is better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and
>remove all doubt."
>             - Silvan Engel
>
>Advice too late for Mr. McKinstry. 
>
So you are asserting that nobody should ask questions about the holocaust?  That
we should accept it without question?

I was taught that asking questions wasn't foolish.  Obviously they are in North
America, or at least to the morons that are full of shit.

You can belittle my questions all you like, it is not going to make me stop
asking questions and accept yours or anybody else's propaganda, Mr. Stuart
Pidley.

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia

Pugnandus Mystes Alchimia



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