The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.conservatives,alt.activism,alt.dear.whitehouse
Subject: Re: !DOLE ATTEMPTS TO SABOTAGE PEACE PROCESS
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:57:36 GMT
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area51@ix.netcom.com (RH) wrote:

>October 1st. 1996
>
>	PORTLAND --- Floundering in a reawakened double-digit lead in
>his presidential race against Bill Clinton, Bob Dole tried to make
>news today by referring to the president's invitation to Middle East
>leaders for peace talks at the White House as "photo-op" policy.
>	Though aides for Mr. Dole were quick to try to cover the
>candidate's flagrant attempt to sabotage the peace process, it is
>becoming more obvious that Mr. Dole will sacrifice anything in his bid
>for election...even the threat of renewed hostilities in the Mideast.

Dole is doing an excellent job of ruining his own
candidacy, without any help from his enemies. His
latest comments about the Mideast are especially
ludicrous in light of his public record on the matter.
His flip-flops, wishy-washiness and fickle opportunism
on the Mideast make Bill Clinton look like a beacon of
stability.

The Republican establishment which decided to install
Dole as the candidate in this election will have to be
held accountable for the likely coming debacle. They
did more to ruin the party's prospects than the
relentless pro-Clinton/anti-Republican propagandizing
of the big media.

-----
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct  4 07:45:20 PDT 1996
Article: 95361 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Gary Aldrich on Vince Foster
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 02:06:44 GMT
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Martin McPhillips  wrote:

>> Multiple independent
>>  sources have claimed that Foster was murdered because
>>  he had been spying on the U.S. for a foreign government
>>  (Israel to be exact), and that his spying had been
>>  discovered by elements within the American intelligence
>>  community.
>
>Oh, shit, are you trying to slip this business back in here.
>
>There are no "multiple independent sources." If there are, please
>name them. That's Jim Norman's "Fostergate," and that is
>a load of bull from the word go.

What *hard evidence* or inside information do you
have to disprove any of the key assertions that Norman
makes below?

Norman mentions Systematics, Boston Systematics,
Promis, the NSA, Robert Maxwell, Jackson Stevens, the
state of Israel and other factors that may well be central to
Fostergate.

Why are you, like David Sussman and John Q. Public, so
extraordinarily hypersensitive about Israel, Mr. McPhillips?
And why are you convinced that Fostergate is merely a
story of local Arkansas corruption? If Norman's story is
even partly true, it would explain why the Republican
establishment has been afraid to touch Fostergate.

We are very much in need of an explanation of why 
leading Republicans have failed to exploit the
opportunity to use Fostergate to damage Bill Clinton
politically. Norman's scenario provides us with that
explanation. Your scenario fails to do this.

Why in the world would leading Republicans walk
gingerly around the issue of financial corruption in
Arkansas?

But if leading backers of Bob Dole and other Republican
interests are also deeply involved in the mess around
Fostergate, then we have our answer.

--- BEGIN ---

Jim Quinn interview of James Norman (edited)

Jon Roland (jon.roland@the-spa.com)
Mon, 11 Dec 1995 21:46:44 -0500 

I have further attempted to edit the interview transcript, cleaning up
spelling, punctuation, and occasionally guessing what was probably taken
down wrong, from context, (and without the benefit of hearing the actual
interview tape).
============================================================================

The following is a Radio Interview between James Norman, 
formerly Senior Editor of Forbes Magazine and now with Media 
Bypass Magazine and Jim Quinn, DJ of WRRK 96.9 FM in Pittsburgh. 
In this interview from December 7th, they discuss issues of 
national importance and STUNNING IMPACT. Essentially they give 
out the reason for Vincent Foster's Death, and the fact that 
the "resignations" of the Congresspersons are NOT for policy 
reasons but because they have been caught with millions in 
corrupt funds in Swiss Banks. Read this to learn what the 
"mainstream media" doesn't ever tell you... 

Quinn's Interview with Jim Norman

QUINN: Jim Norman, former Senior Editor at Forbes Magazine, and 
currently writing for Media Bypass Magazine after having 
uncovered Caspar Weinberger's Swiss bank account (we do get 
punished for some of the truths we uncover, do we not?). Jim is 
on the phone with us this morning. Good Morning, Jim. 

NORMAN: Hi, how are you? 

QUINN: Pretty good. I want to give people a chance to get an idea 
of what it is we are going to launch into after 8 o'clock, and I 
want to give some background into this. Is it fair to say that 
since Iran-Contra that the government has sort of been involved 
in the drug business? 

NORMAN: Yes, it goes way back before then, actually. It goes back 
even to the Vietnam War days -- remember the Golden Triangle, 
Laos, Cambodia and all that, Pakistan and Afghanistan, but it was 
always on a much smaller scale. What apparently happened was that 
in the 80s we got into it in a big way, basically nationalizing 
the wholesale importation of drugs from Central and South America. 
The idea was that we control it somehow that way; instead, it has 
just become the tail wagging the dog, I think. 

QUINN: It's become the funding source for just about anything 
that the government covertly wants to do, and for the moneys that 
various elements of the government don't want to ask the Congress 
for, nor do they want Congress to know about. 

NORMAN: Right. And it's an arms business, too. They are kind of 
all tied up together. 

QUINN: So it's arms and drugs? 

NORMAN: Right. 

QUINN: Kenneth Starr is currently our Whitewater prosecutor, and 
I have long said on this show that I find Ken Starr interesting 
but also troubling in that there are many elements to the 
Whitewater scandal. Part of the laments have to do with banking 
and have to do with Madison Savings and Loan, check kiting, stuff 
that went on with the Arkansas Development Financial Authority, 
but basically there are really two elements -- there is Whitewater 
and then there is all the stuff with Mena Airport, Iran-Contra, 
drugs into the country, various unexplained deaths, one of them 
Vince Foster, the possibility of espionage on the part of the 
first lady, and all of this lies behind a brick wall that Mr. 
Starr has been positioned upon to make sure that they get Clinton 
but that the fire doesn't burn past that wall; because on the 
other side of that wall are Republicans and Democrats. Am I right? 

NORMAN: That's right. He is not looking at Mena; he doesn't have 
the authority to from Janet Reno. He does have authority to look 
at the Vince Foster death, but I think only inasmuch as it relates 
to the Whitewater situation. The whole thing is hemmed in and 
beyond that is this whole national security blanket that has been 
thrown over big parts of this thing that you couldn't touch if you 
wanted to. 

QUINN: It's interesting, I find, that Dr. Henry Lee, who was part 
of the defense team for the Simpson trial, has ended up working on 
the Vince Foster affair. The word that I get is that he is going 
to say it was indeed a suicide. You have to remember something 
about Dr. Henry Lee -- he was, oddly enough, the guy that was 
called in to do some work on the Danny Casolaro death down in 
Martinsburg, way back in the early nineties. Was it 1991? 

NORMAN: I think it was 1991. 

QUINN: This was that reporter that you may have heard about that 
was found dead in a motel room, supposedly from a self-inflicted 
wound, even though the papers (a year's worth of investigative 
reporting) were all missing. He was working on the story that he 
called the "octopus" and basically it's the same story that you 
are working on, isn't it?

NORMAN: Yes, I know I'm talking to a lot of the same sources. 
Danny supposedly slashed his wrists twelve times, sometimes deep 
enough to cut the tendon. 

QUINN: Yeah, right. And his files were all missing. Sure, 
there's a suicide. Right. And they embalmed his body before they 
even had a chance to inform his parents that he was dead. So it's 
another "Arkanside." 

NORMAN: George Williamson, who is an investigative reporter out 
of San Francisco, has been working on that. He has come up with 
all kinds of stuff -- other witnesses that have disappeared, 
people in the hotel who just aren't there anymore -- disappeared 
mysteriously. 

QUINN: It's interesting. There are a lot of people who are 
witnesses to various deaths involved with this Arkansas crowd, 
Danny Casolaro for one. Also, the two young boys on the railroad
tracks down in Arkansas who stumbled on the drug operation. A lot 
of the witnesses around that have met violent and untimely deaths 
as well. So here are a great deal of ugly people involved in 
this. We are going to get down to what it all means in terms of 
government corruption and scandal of immense proportions that 
touch both parties. This is really nonpartisan. The fact that I 
don't happen to like "President Pantload" doesn't have a whole 
lot to do with this; he was just sort of a guy who happened to be 
there with his hand out at the time. It all goes back to the late 
70's, right Jim? 

NORMAN: Yeah, and even before that. Let's start with the early 
80s when Bill Casey came into office in the CIA under Ronald 
Reagan. That's when our government decided to embark on this 
amazing and extremely unbelievably successful effort to spy on 
the world's banks. We did it! We have been spying on world 
banking transactions for more than a dozen years. The way we do 
it is by basically forcing foreign banks, wittingly or 
unwittingly, to buy bugged software and bugged computers that 
let our NSA (National Security Agency) which is the intelligence 
arm of the government, to basically surveil wire transfers all 
over the globe.

QUINN: Let me ask you this. How do you sucker the rest of the 
banking community around the globe into buying the software 
that you are selling? 

NORMAN: First of all you sell to front companies like this 
company Systematics in Arkansas, now called Alltel Information 
Services. They had another company called Boston Systematics,
an affiliate based in Israel mainly. There is Robert Maxwell, the 
UK publisher, who is fronting this stuff. There are a whole bunch 
of people fronting this.

QUINN: Wait a minute, Robert Maxwell -- isn't he dead? 

NORMAN: Yeah, he is now. 

QUINN: Didn't he have an unfortunate accident? 

NORMAN: Fell off his yacht in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere. 

QUINN: Why, isn't that amazing! 

NORMAN: The tinkering of it was mainly putting back doors, just a 
few lines of code, that would allow somebody to dial into a 
computer without leaving any footprints, any audit trail that 
you were in there. Then you could go around and look around in 
files or you could collect information from a system without the
user even knowing it 

QUINN: Now this software, which was originally called Promis, 
was stolen from a company called Inslaw by the Justice 
Department. It ended up somewhere, probably at E-Systems
or somewhere, and it was converted into banking software. It 
Started out as software designed to track prosecutorial cases
around the country. My question is -- why didn't Ed Meese just 
pay the damn bill, and none of this would ever have come to 
light! Danny Casolaro was chasing the stolen software when he 
stumbled on what it was being used for. 

NORMAN: Well, the trouble with it was that they bought it for use 
in the Justice Department, but they were going to use it all over 
the place. If they were paying royalties on it, Inslaw would know 
just how extensive the use was of the software, and they didn't 
want people to know how extensively it was going to be used. 

QUINN: I see... 

NORMAN: Plus, a lot of the profits from the resale of this went 
back into private profits. It was customized and resold to the 
intelligence community. It became sort of a basic platform 
database tracking system for most of our intelligence agencies 
and many of those abroad. The idea was "Well, we can all talk to 
each other now." In fact what it has allowed us to do is 
basically rifle through other people's data files abroad too, 
because the stuff was apparently being sold to foreign 
intelligence agencies and it was also bugged. We have other ways 
of basically surveilling and downloading foreign electronic 
databases. The whole computer world is much more porous and 
transparent than anybody wants you to believe. 

QUINN: There is a bank here that I know that uses this software 
right here in this town, and I'm sure that there is probably more 
than one. Everybody's got it.

NORMAN: In some form or another. It goes under different names 
now. It's been modified many times. I think when Inslaw had it, 
it was a half million lines of code. I'm told now it's a couple 
of million lines anyway. It's gone through many, many 
modifications over the years. 

QUINN: This company, Systematics, which is I believe still 8% 
owned by Jackson Stevens at Stevens Inc., who, by the way, is one 
of the backers of Bob Dole -- how troubling is that? 

NORMAN: He is the co-chairman of Dole's finance committee. 

QUINN: That's right! Bob's in town -- Hi Bob -- You'd better 
explain this. You'd better explain Mena, too, Bob, or it's going 
to follow you to the White House. Systematics, I understand, had 
an attorney who was kind of off the record doing work for them, 
named Vince Foster. Is that true? 

NORMAN: Yep, that's true. We've heard that from many, many 
sources now. In fact, Jim Leach's committee has established that 
pretty well with some of the investigation that they have done. 
Foster was a trusted deal guy for Stevens at the law firm. 
Although Foster never shows up officially as an attorney of record 
for Systematics, he was definitely in the loop, basically 
smoothing out things between Systematics and the NSA, which was 
the main government agency that was contracting for a lot of this 
stuff. 

QUINN: So this is how Foster got involved in intelligence, right. 

NORMAN: Yes, because there is heavy duty code and computer 
technology stuff involved here. Apparently, some time in the 
early 80s he developed this relationship with the State of 
Israel. In fact, some of the same handlers I am told were 
involved in the Jonathan Pollard case. They basically nurtured 
him and groomed him for many years and then bingo, they hit the 
jackpot -- he ended up in the White House. Apparently he 
convinced Hillary to help him out on some stuff. 

QUINN: So... what is Foster involved in? It's the mid 80s... 

NORMAN: Mid 80s. Foster is at the Rose Law Firm. Think of him as 
a high-level marketing guy between Systematics and the NSA. 
NSA -- they have all these spooky contracts that they are trying 
to find contractors for. Foster would have been sort of a 
go-between there. Plus Hillary was actually an attorney of record 
for Systematics back in 1978 when Stevens tried to take over the 
Financial General Bank shares in Washington. Those bank holding
companies later became First American - Clark Clifford, Robert 
Altman, all that crowd. 

QUINN: Yeah, the BCCI thing. 

NORMAN: Stevens was fronting for the BCCI crowd and trying to 
take over this Washington Bank Holding Co. The SEC blocked him at 
the time, partly because one of the things he was insisting on 
was that this company Systematics, which at that time was a tiny 
little thing in Arkansas, he was insisting that they be brought 
in to do all of the data processing for this multistate bank 
holding company in Washington. Hillary represented Systematics
in that. Now the thing about Systematics at the time -- it was 
before they even got involved with the bank spying stuff. Abroad 
for many years, they had been what amounted to a laundromat for 
covert funds for the CIA and the intelligence community, quite 
legally, probably. It was done for the national interest. 
Somebody had to move this money around and Systematics was in a 
perfect place to do it because they owned the computers and a 
whole bunch of small banks. They could move this money around 
electronically without the bankers even knowing about it 
necessarily, and it wouldn't go through the normal clearing 
houses. The regulators wouldn't see it. It would just crop up 
wherever the CIA needed it in whatever bogus front company 
account, and it was all just bits and bytes; it was a cyberbank 
-- it still is. 

QUINN: I'm here with Jim Norman, former Senior Editor at Forbes 
Magazine. You know, it's interesting, here is a guy who was with 
Forbes Magazine, a respected senior editor who figured probably 
this would be his life's work. All of a sudden, he finds himself 
a defrocked commando journalist working for Media Bypass Magazine 
out of what? Evanston, Illinois, or somewhere in Indiana? 

NORMAN: Indiana. 

QUINN: Yeah, that's right. Now, I've got a question. Before we get 
into Vince Foster in the mid 80s and Hillary Clinton's role in 
this, how did you get onto this whole scandal? Where did you walk 
through the door on this? 

NORMAN: I came in the back door completely. Look, I had no ax to 
grind here against Bill Clinton or the Administration. I hated 
covering politics. I thought it was all baloney. I'm just a 
business writer, and I never wanted to get enmeshed in this whole 
Whitewater/Vince Foster thing, but it started -- for a couple of 
years I had been following this oil company bankruptcy up in 
Stamford, Connecticut, because I had covered oil. This thing 
never made sense to me. There is no reason why this company went 
bust and, in fact, when I actually got into it and started redoing 
the oil trading transactions, the reason they lost money: they 
weren't losing it. They were hiding it. They were parking it off 
shore with another company that was financing arms sales to Iraq, 
cluster bombs and stuff like that all through the 80s. And, this 
Chilean arms dealer, Cardone, who was providing weapons, was also, 
it turns out, brokering some of the sales of this stolen software. 
Okay, that gets me into the software story. 

QUINN: So that gets you onto the Promis software, and you and 
Danny Casolaro are now on the same road. 

NORMAN: Right, and then in the process of that, I started talking 
to a whole bunch of rather spooky, strange intelligence community 
characters, and I was sitting at a guy's living room down in 
Kentucky one day. He was sitting there in the middle of the night 
blowing smoke rings, and he said, "Yo, by the way, Vince Foster, 
he was under investigation." I said, "Under investigation, for 
what?" And, he said, "Well, it's spelled 'Espionage.'" BOINK!!... 
and that's how I got on this whole Vince Foster thing. 

QUINN: So that's how it happened? 

NORMAN: Yeah. 

QUINN: Okay, now here it is, the mid 80s. Vince Foster is working 
for Systematics, and he is coming into contact with the 
intelligence community. What is, how did Hillary Clinton and the 
Israeli Mossad and all of this come together and what happened? 

NORMAN: Well, I think that they had been... look the Israelis were 
key partners with us in this bank spying effort. This is a joint 
allied government effort, and the Israelis were one of the key 
front people in this, in selling and supporting this software all 
over the world, so that people weren't thinking they were getting 
the software directly from the U.S. You know, there was an 
Israeli front company used to sell this stuff to foreign banks. 

QUINN: Well, they sold it to the Moscow bank. I know that. 

NORMAN: Well, Systematics did, yeah, and Systematics got involved 
in supporting this stuff all over the world, a little company in 
Arkansas... Go figure. Come on. 

QUINN: Yeah, really. 

NORMAN: I mean, main software people, they operate in New York 
and places like that and not out of Podunk, Arkansas. So, at any 
rate, the Israelis had ties into this whole thing all along, and, 
you know, they are our friends. We do give them a lot of stuff 
and share a lot of stuff. 

QUINN: Well, the whole idea was to track terrorist money, and the 
Israelis have a great interest in that, and rightly so. There is 
no problem here. 

NORMAN: The name of this problem was "follow the money for 
terrorist reasons," but once you set that up, you can do all 
kinds of stuff with it. I mean, we were spying on everybody's 
money. I think that's probably how we helped bust the Soviet 
Union. We found out just how deep their pockets were, where their 
money was, who we could bribe. You know, acting as a financial 
destruction of their society more than anything. 

QUINN: So, how does Foster get involved in espionage? 

NORMAN: Well, I think it was money. Money, money, money. And, 
especially you know with this whole political thing, it takes so 
much money to run for office. I mean, my theory is that the 
actual spending is probably twice of what anybody declares when 
you add up all of the soft dollars and everything. I think there
is a tremendous need for money there, and they just weren't real 
cautious about where it was coming from. I think this thing about 
selling state secrets to the Israeli's and other countries was 
just a business. It was just for money. I don't think there was 
any ideology involved here at all, and it was one of many 
businesses. There is also insider trading going on here. There 
was the kickback on drugs and arms stuff and so the money has to 
go... you have to hide it some way, so it goes into Swiss bank 
accounts. And Foster would have known that, yeah, we're tracking 
this money off shore, but there is such a blizzard of information 
that unless somebody knows exactly what they are looking for they
would never find anything. They thought they could cover this up 
pretty well so Foster had... actually he had several accounts, and 
there was one in particular in this bank, bank at Villa Switsaria 
Italiano in Chaso on the Italian border. It is a little kind of a 
Mafia kind of community there reputed, and so he was taking the 
money in there for the payments from the Swiss. He was going to 
Geneva every six or eight months, and his curious one-day trips --
I don't think it was for sightseeing. 

QUINN: No. I'm sure he wasn't doing any real estate work for 
Arkansas. 

NORMAN: No. The whole thing about money laundering is... you know 
the money would go into a Swiss bank. Somebody would have to go 
physically and take it out and take it to a friendly bonded dealer 
or something like that, buy bearer bonds or other kinds of bonds 
or something that you could pledge as collateral for loans back 
in the states and turn it back into cash again legitimately, and 
so that is how money laundering works. Vince, in effect, was a 
bag man here because when they go to the White House all of a 
sudden they hit the jackpot. There was so much more goodies there, 
and, in fact, Deborah Goram, Foster's executive assistant, 
testified under oath that Foster had given her two, inch-thick 
ring binders from the National Security Agency to put in Bernie 
Nussbaum's safe in the White House. What were these binders? Well, 
I have talked to brokering experts on this stuff, and they say, 
"Look, when you are talking NSA binders in the White House, you 
are talking mainly one thing, and these are the codes and 
protocols by which the President authenticates himself when he 
has to call up the Pentagon to say 'let's go nuke somebody'." Now, 
what was Foster doing with these things? He had no business with 
them. He would have had no access to them. It would have to come 
>from  somebody with access to the Oval Office or the Presidential 
living quarters. 

QUINN: And, who would that be? 

NORMAN: Well, I think we know who we are talking about here. 

QUINN: We're talking about Hillary Clinton, aren't we? 

NORMAN: That's right. She has been under investigation in this 
whole thing, too, but I think that they had a strong case against 
Vince and not such a strong case against Hillary. But, you see 
what happened was, and this is another whole part of the story as 
to how they got onto Foster. Basically, there was a team of
computer hackers and computer intelligence guys in the CIA who 
were going through most databases. They found names there that 
they identified as being Foster and Hillary. They put them under 
surveillance actually before they went to the White House. I think 
it was between the election and the time that they went to the 
White House, and that's when the alarm bells went off. They had 
been surveilling these accounts for a while, and when Foster on 
July 1, 1993, bought a ticket to Geneva, a round-trip one-day 
ticket to Geneva, these guys said, "Oops, he's going to take the 
money. We're going to beat him to it." And, they went in. They 
hacked their way into the bank and obtained the necessary
authorization codes on this coded account for which no signature 
is required to withdraw money, by the way. 

QUINN: Right. 

NORMAN: They were able to effect their own technically legitimate 
wire transfer of this money back to the U.S. Treasury, where it 
sits in a holding account escrowed for use by the CIA. 

QUINN: So, the CIA empties Vince Foster's Swiss bank account of 
its ill-gotten money. 

NORMAN: Yeah, actually it wasn't the CIA. It was this sort of 
renegade vigilante group of guys they called the Fifth Column 
that has been out doing this stuff. They don't take any of the 
money for themselves. The money goes to the... 

QUINN: They just do it for fun? 

NORMAN: The CIA only gets the money. It is escrowed for use by 
the CIA but only when the CIA gets rid of a bunch of its bad 
apples there who've got dirty hands from drug kickbacks, arms. 

QUINN: Let's pick this story up. There was a meeting just before 
Vince Foster died on the eastern shore of Maryland in which 
Webster Hubbell, Vince Foster, and some others were present. 
Okay, this was just before Foster died. Pick up the story here. 

NORMAN: All right. Well, we mentioned July 1, 1993. Foster buys 
this round-trip ticket to Switzerland. They raid his account. 
They take out $2.73 million. Foster apparently calls up the bank 
to let them know he was coming. They say, "Oh, Vince don't you 
know you took the money out already?" Boing... that's when he
found out he was under investigation. That's when he got so 
mysteriously depressed. It had nothing to do with editorials in 
the Wall Street Journal. He had his bank account raided big time, 
and he knew he was under surveillance, or he knew he was under 
investigation. And, that started this curious chain of events. 
Webster Hubbell testified that not so much Vince was depressed, 
but he was worried. He was afraid to use the White House 
telephones. The guy had heart palpitations. He couldn't sleep at 
night. His doctor gave him a prescription for sleeping pills. His 
sister tried to get him to talk to some psychiatrist. He never 
got in touch with them. Instead, he hired a high-powered lawyer 
in Washington, Jim Hamilton, this big deal white-collar crime 
fix-it guy who handles people who get hauled up for Congressional 
hearings. And, then there is this curious meeting the weekend 
before Foster died. He and his wife, Lisa, go down to the eastern 
shore of Maryland for a getaway weekend, and then, by coincidence, 
they meet Hubbell and his wife down there. Hubbell, also from the 
Rose Law Firm, at the time the country's de-facto top law 
enforcement law officer because Janet Reno in effect was taking 
her orders from Hubbell. They go over to the estate of Michael 
Cardoza, who is the son-in-law of Nathan Landau, a big deal 
Democratic fund-raiser, and Cardoza is also the head of Clinton's 
legal defense fund. Supposedly, this was all poolside chit chat.
Baloney, it was damage control. They were trying to figure out 
how to contain this scandal from spreading to other people in the 
White House, and they were trying to lean on Vince to get him to, 
you know, cop a plea, go quietly, or shut up and don't talk about 
it. And, in fact, what my sources have told me is that there was 
actually a huge payment made to an account held by Lisa Foster, 
with more than $286,000, on the Friday before that meeting. 

QUINN: Wait a minute, on the Friday before that meeting, Lisa 
Foster's bank account gets a deposit of $286 million? 

NORMAN: $286,000, yeah. 

QUINN: I'm sorry, yeah, $286,000. Okay, so does she take it out? 

NORMAN: Well, I don't know what ever happened to that money. It 
is hard to tell where it came from even. It is all very 
mysterious to me, but it sure smells like hush money to me. It's 
like, "Look Vince, don't worry, we'll take care of your money." 

QUINN: You don't know if she wrote a check on it?

NORMAN: Well, I'm told that it came through the hands somehow of 
Sheila Anthony, who was Foster's sister, and at the time she was 
a "congressional liaison" person at the Justice Department, 
whatever a congressional liaison is. 

QUINN: So she takes the money to Foster, and Foster turns it down? 

NORMAN: Well, no... I think he probably accepted it, or it went 
there. But, apparently, he was having second thoughts, I think. 
You know, on the Monday after they came back from this meeting, 
the records showed, the public records showed, that he has a 
parade of people coming by his office in the White House saying, 
"Hey, how'd your weekend go, Vince? You cool with this? I mean, 
you on board with all of this? Everything okay?" you know. Then,... 

QUINN: A lot of very nervous people in the White House. 

NORMAN: That's right. Then, the day he died he had like a two-hour 
meeting with another person from the Arkansas contingent there. I 
think the problem was that they were afraid that Vince was going 
to talk or that he was going to crack under questioning, and 
here's a guy who was now, at this point, under intense 
surveillance. I mean, he had not only CIA counter intelligence 
people, but you had NSA. You had FBI surveilling him. There was a 
four-person IRS team we know was assigned to tail this guy, 
probably in connection with the money laundering aspect of the 
Swiss bank account. 

QUINN: God, this thing's got everything but floats in the... I 
mean all they need is Goofy, a big balloon with ropes on it 
following this guy around. 

NORMAN: You almost did. I mean, you had the Secret Service with 
a bomb-sniffing dog squad out there checking his car in the 
parking lot. The video tapes of that, gone. The video tapes of the 
room where they are stored, gone. I mean, this whole thing is 
massively covered up, and I guess it is for national security
reasons. 

QUINN: Well now, I understand that Foster had a meeting scheduled 
with Bill Clinton. I believe it was on a Wednesday. 

NORMAN: Right. 

QUINN: And, it was the Tuesday he was killed. 

NORMAN: Right. Exactly. The question is well, gee, was he going 
to drop something in the President's lap and blow the plausible 
deniability that he might have on this stuff. 

QUINN: Well, this Foster suicide thing is so sloppy. It leads me 
to believe that on Tuesday they thought he would take the money 
and shut up, and he didn't take it so they had to do something 
real quick. 

NORMAN: Well, that could be it or that even if he wanted to shut 
up maybe they were afraid he would crack under interrogation or 
something. You know, it is just somebody wanted him real dead, 
and there is a bunch of people who had ample reason for it. This 
was not suicide. It was not over depression. This was a political 
assassination carried out on U.S. soil by a foreign government. 
The Israelis were involved in this. There was apparently a three-
person Mossad-contracted team that went into the apartment that 
Foster had gone to that afternoon where he was apparently lured 
by a female person from the White House staff who I think still 
works in the White House. 

QUINN: Now, who would that be? 

NORMAN: Well, I... 

QUINN: Because, he had sex with her? 

NORMAN: That's the impression, yeah. 

QUINN: I mean, there was semen on his shorts. There was brownish-
blonde hair on his clothing and rug fibers all over him which may 
or may not have had to do with having sex on the floor. It might 
have been... 

NORMAN: No, I think that was because he was rolled up in a rug 
afterwards and taken over to Fort Marcy Park. Now, the question 
is, were elements of our intelligence community involved in 
helping to dispose of the body and cover it up some way? 

QUINN: Who is the woman in the White House? 

NORMAN: I can't say. 

QUINN: Patsy Thomason? 

NORMAN: No. I don't want to say. I suspect... 

QUINN: Dee Dee. Well, she's not there anymore. 

NORMAN: That name is known. I mean, she has been identified on 
these tapes apparently, but.... 

QUINN: I think Dee Dee and Bill are doing it, but that's just me. 
Anyway, let's get back to the story here. Okay, so I understand 
at least you are claiming that there is a videotape of Foster's 
murder? 

NORMAN: Well, of the people entering and leaving this apartment a 
few blocks from the White House where it apparently occurred. 

QUINN: Has anybody located this apartment? Do you know where it 
is? 

NORMAN: I don't know exactly where it is myself. I am told it is 
actually within a few blocks of the White House. 

QUINN: Okay, so they lure him here, and they pop him, and there 
is a videotape of it or there is a videotape of the people going 
in and out. Then, they go to Fort Marcy Park, and they dump him. 

NORMAN: Right. 

QUINN: Okay, and we've got a witness now that says they saw the 
two guys that fit the same description that Patrick Knowlton, the 
other witness, to Foster's car. He describes the one guy that 
threatens him. One of those people is one of the two that 
supposedly was walking Foster, who looked drunk to this guy, 
into the park, but he says that they laid him out. 

NORMAN: Yeah. I don't know too much about all that stuff, but 
what I know is this, that Paul Rodriguez is the Editor of Insight 
Magazine, that came up with this Mr. X source. When Forbes decided 
not to run the story for reasons that were kind of mysterious to 
me at the time, and while I was still there, they gave me 
permission to publish it elsewhere. And, as I approached Insight, 
because they are kind of a gutsy magazine, David Rodriguez made a 
whole bunch of calls around Washington trying to corroborate this 
stuff, and I think he was making some headway. Then, he gets this 
visit in person from some military intelligence guy from the 
Pentagon who comes to him and says, "Paul, lay off this story. 
You don't know what you're dealing with here." 

QUINN: No. I think we do know what we are dealing with here. 
We're dealing with the biggest scandal since maybe... 

NORMAN: And, you've got Israeli relations at stake here. You know, 
the intelligence community has a lot of joint ventures with the 
Israelis. They don't want to "queer" those things. I mean, we do 
business with those people a lot, and you know a lot of it is 
probably quite necessary, but you know there is a scandal here 
that dwarfs the Jonathan Pollard case by orders of magnitude 
really. 

QUINN: I want to discuss a couple of things with you. First of 
all, now it would appear that a bunch of Republicans picking 
Kenneth Starr to put him in charge of this investigation of 
Vince Foster and the Whitewater problem in Washington, D.C. On 
the surface, it looked like they were going for the jugular, but 
see, Mr. Starr has some background that leads back to the Inslaw 
case we discussed earlier in the show about the Promis software 
and stuff. He excused himself from that litigation. 

NORMAN: And, the reason was because he was the inside counsel for 
William French Smith at the Justice Department in 1982 at the 
time that the Inslaw software was expropriated by the government... 

QUINN: Okay. So he really is not in the position to be the pit 
bull to expose this. He is in a better position to get Clinton on 
whatever Republicans need to get him on and make sure that 
Republicans don't get burned here.

NORMAN: I think that's it. Yeah. 

QUINN: Okay, now. Given that that's the case and given that the 
Washington inside-the-beltway crowd on both sides of the aisle 
are trying to make sure that the fix is in on this, how do you 
think or what leads you to believe that this is going to come out, 
and through what channels? 

NORMAN: Well, again, it goes back to resources of mine. 
Basically, there are a few good guys in the intelligence 
community, particularly this handful of people in the so-called
Fifth Column, who are so incensed about this bipartisan coverup, 
the government's inability and unwillingness to deal with the high
level corruption here, they've just decided to take things into 
their own hands. They never had government authorization to go 
raid the foreign bank accounts, but.... 

QUINN: How many accounts are there? How many people in the 
government right now have Swiss bank accounts filled with money 
>from  BCCI, drug laundering, defense kickbacks, arms trades, I 
mean all of this nonsense? 

NORMAN: Not as many as two years ago. These guys have been out 
raiding these accounts. They've pulled back $2.5 billion, more 
than $2.5 billion with a "B" dollars from 300, 400, 500 of these 
accounts. There is probably 3,000 coded Swiss and other foreign 
bank accounts that they have been rifling through the computers on. 

QUINN: How can there be this many of them and it doesn't come out? 

NORMAN: It is because it is endemic corruption. The government is 
corrupt. Why should we give the President of South Korea $600 
million? ... country more powerful, more worth corrupting, more 
venal and with weaker controls for policing this stuff. 

QUINN: Well, because we don't believe it can happen here. 

NORMAN: That's right. We're Americans. Well, this is greed and 
money. But, there is.... 

QUINN: Well, it's murder too. 

NORMAN: That's right, and there have been hundreds of these 
accounts already raided, and nobody, NOBODY has been able to stand 
up and say, "I was robbed." Why? Because, the money came from 
exactly what you said -- kickbacks on drugs, kickbacks on arms, 
insider trading, and they never paid any taxes on this stuff. 
They've never disclosed it, and the minimum sentence for willful 
tax evasion is ten years, that's the minimum. So, what you have 
going on right now in Congress is basically, there is an Angel of 
Death. Actually, there are two I'm told. There is one on the 
Democratic side and one on the Republican side. 

QUINN: Now, do they make their rounds together? 

NORMAN: No. It's separately. What I'm told is that the people in 
Congress with these Swiss bank accounts, who have had these 
accounts, if they haven't already left, if they haven't had the 
good sense to already get their butts out of there, they have been 
delivered, hand delivered a brown paper envelope with transaction 
records of their Swiss bank accounts, and within a day or so they 
get a visit from this Angel of Death who says it's time for you 
to go, time to do some career planning, you're out of here, we 
don't want you in the government when the stuff hits the fan here, 
as it's gonna do in the spring apparently. The records are going 
to start coming out. It's going to be obvious. These vigilantes 
are just going to take this situation into their own hands and 
release this stuff, I'm convinced. 

QUINN: These people are real patriots. They could end up dead 
doing this. 

NORMAN: Some of them may already have. I think... but they've 
planned this quite well. I think they've got it down now. They 
know that if anything happens to them, that the stuff would just 
come out in a gush, so it would be counterproductive for.... 

QUINN: Yeah, but I mean is it going to come out in the 
mainstream media. You've got the Mena story being spiked a year 
ago by Katherine Graham at the Washington Post, and I've uncov... 
you, what I stumbled on a memo from Paul Keiser yesterday from the 
editor at the Washington Post who writes me in this memo a flat 
out blatant lie. He says that the authors of the Mena story, that 
was supposed to run January 26, 1995, in the Washington Post 
Outlook Section, had withdrawn the article before the Washington 
Post had decided to run it, and that's just a flat out lie. 

NORMAN: Well, it's technically probably true. But, what they've 
done, they've left those people dangling by a thread for like 6-8 
months. I don't blame them for taking the story elsewhere as the.... 

QUINN: Yeah, but no, but Jim they didn't. The type galleys had 
been laid, and the artwork had been done. It was supposed... they 
didn't pull it until the Thursday before the Sunday it was 
supposed to run. 

NORMAN: Right. Well, technically the Post can say, "Oh, we never 
quieted you..." That's what they told me at Forbes, too, about my 
story. Finally, I never got a good reason why my story didn't run 
at Forbes. Ultimately, they said, "Oh, we didn't trust your 
sources." But, actually what my immediate supervisor said, "We 
can't say this about Systematics," which was a big advertiser at 
Forbes, and we can't say this about the Israelis. 

QUINN: Yeah, right. 

NORMAN: That's why didn't run in Forbes. 

QUINN: Well, there's actually no proof that Systematics has 
deliberately delivered stolen software. I mean, they may not even 
know that the software was stolen, and it may be another version 
of it. 

NORMAN: Systematics is under heavy duty investigation, though, 
right now for money laundering, because once you set up a system 
for laundering covert funds for the government, who knows what 
else you can piggyback on top of that. The suspicion is that this 
was the quid pro quo here in return for laundering, supposedly, 
call it legitimate funds that the intelligence community can 
piggyback other stuff to. 

QUINN: Let's get back to the Angel of Death here and the 
resignations in Congress, which have been pretty much 
attributed by guys like Rush Limbaugh to the fact that Democrats 
just don't like being in the minority anymore, and they don't 
have the guts or stamina to stick it out the way the Republicans 
did for 40 years. And, some of that may be true, but how many of 
these people who have said that they are pulling their hats out 
of the ring... And, now we have two Republicans... How many of 
these people have been visited by this so-called Angel of Death? 
All of them? 

NORMAN: Well, the figures I've heard is that I think there's like 
25 or 26 so far since the last election who have decided they are 
not going to run again or had actually resigned and out of there, 
like Norman Minetta from Los Angeles[sic]. Of those, I'm told 
about 21 or 22 so far can be directly attributed to Swiss bank 
account problems. There is probably another dozen or so that 
are going to go that way. Again, there is an argument that, "Oh, 
we just can't stand the nasty politics in Washington anymore." 
Come on, give me a break. 

QUINN: Well, I like Patsy Schroeder. She wanted us to believe 
that now that the Democratic party is in such good shape she can 
leave it and it doesn't... did you see that? 

NORMAN: No.... 

QUINN: That was great. Oh yeah, now that.... 

NORMAN: Patsy Schroeder, somebody noted on the Internet that at 
the news conference where she was announcing she wasn't going to 
run, there had already been re-elect Schroeder bumper stickers 
printed up. I mean, she... take this guy Ron Coleman from Texas, 
a Congressman down there. He made his announcement at his 
supposed re-election campaign kickoff party. 

QUINN: You're kidding? This is right out of a... this is a movie. 

NORMAN: That's right. Listen, these people have been confronted. 
They've been given 24 hours basically to clean out their desks. 
That's what it amounts to. 

QUINN: So, they're gonna try and get all these people out who 
have Swiss bank accounts before it hits the fan. Now, when do you 
suppose that this is going to happen? Can you give us a timetable? 

NORMAN: Well, that's happening in tiers. I mean, we've already 
seen a bunch of departures. I think that the early spring is the 
timetable. You know, Wall Street is going to get hit with this 
stuff too. Now, every year in the spring, soon after the first of 
the year, after these guys collect their year-end bonuses, you have 
a big exodus. But, I'm told Wall Street is going to get hit with 
this big time this year because those guys were in it too. You 
gotta remember, there was so much money sloshing around here... 

QUINN: Yeah, really. 

NORMAN: ... from arms deals. You could not launder all of that 
money without the knowing, willing cooperation and participation 
of major banks, major brokerage houses, and... 

QUINN: Goldman Sachs possibly? 

NORMAN: Oh yeah. Look, Goldman... 

QUINN: I always found it strange that Robert Rubin showed up when 
he did. 

NORMAN: This Goldman, they were the chief investment bankers to 
Robert Maxwell in the U.K., helped Maxwell loot a half a billion 
dollars out of his pension funds, and it now costs a huge amount 
of money for a settlement there. 

QUINN: It sounds like somebody's calling you. 

NORMAN: They still have the bond for ADFA, the Arkansas Development... 

QUINN: Whoa, hold on a second. What's that? 

NORMAN: That's another one of these... 

QUINN: Well no, I know what it is. You're telling me that Goldman 
Sachs was holding the bonds for the Arkansas Development? 

NORMAN: No, they were the underwriter on a bunch of these $8 
billion or so of bonds that ADFA marketed to who knows whom. 

QUINN: Oh man. You know, I have transactions on my desk at home, 
$80 million of money transfers to the Fuji Bank in the Cayman 
Islands from ADFA, the Arkansas Development Financial Authority, 
who I believe never had more than $8 million to begin with. I 
mean, where did they get $80 million, and what's it going to the 
Fuji Bank for? The interest rate? Come on, the Switzerland of the 
Caribbean. Jim, I gotta let you go. I gotta wrap this up here, 
but I want to thank you for joining us this morning. 

NORMAN: It's a pleasure. I'll keep you posted as more develops. 
There's going to be more coming down the pike here soon. 

QUINN: Well, I'll tell you what. I'm gonna call you later on 
today. I'll give you my home number. Let's stay in touch because 
if what you say is true and if there are truly some patriots in 
the intelligence community who are finally going to blow the 
whistle on this. By the way, all of these resignations and the 
Angel of Death and all of this, I think is evidence that these 
people know that this is inevitable that this is going to come 
out. 

NORMAN: It's like AIDS. I think there are a bunch of people back 
before the last election who realized they, in fact, have slept 
with the wrong woman or person, and they did not run again, but 
there has been denial, denial, denial by a bunch of these people. 
Finally, I think it's like the Angel of Death is finally coming
around saying, "You gotta go. Bye. You're outta here." 

*************************** CREDITS******************************

If you are a talk show host and want to contact either one of 
these guys for an interview you can reach James Norman at MEDIA 
BYPASS MAGAZINE, 1-800-4-BYPASS 

Jim Quinn can be contacted at WRRK, 7 Parkway Center, Suite 780, 
Pittsburgh, PA 15220, Fax Number 412-928-9290, Internet address 
is quinn@sgi.net homepage at http://www.warroom.com or Compuserve
72662,3507.

--- END ---
-----
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct  4 07:45:21 PDT 1996
Article: 95425 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.stealth.net!demos!Gamma.RU!srcc!news1.relcom.ru!EU.net!uunet!news-in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Jim Norman on Kenneth Starr
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 1996 05:17:56 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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I've been rereading some of Jim Norman's older
articles. You've got to wonder whether Norman didn't
have Fostergate and the rest of the Clinton Scandals
pretty well figured out. His comments about Kenneth
Starr make a good deal of sense.

A huge amount of energy has been invested by both the
Clintonites (Democrats) and anti-Clintonites
(Republicans) to steer all discussion about the Clinton
Scandals away from the claims made by Jim Norman.
I've seen a good deal of the effort on the Internet.

Here are excerpts about Starr in an interview with
Norman by Jim Quinn:

--- BEGIN ---

QUINN: Kenneth Starr is currently our Whitewater
prosecutor, and I have long said on this show that I
find Ken Starr interesting but also troubling in that
there are many elements to the Whitewater scandal. Part
of the laments have to do with banking and have to do
with Madison Savings and Loan, check kiting, stuff that
went on with the Arkansas Development Financial
Authority, but basically there are really two elements
-- there is Whitewater and then there is all the stuff
with Mena Airport, Iran-Contra, drugs into the country,
various unexplained deaths, one of them Vince Foster,
the possibility of espionage on the part of the first
lady, and all of this lies behind a brick wall that Mr.
Starr has been positioned upon to make sure that they
get Clinton but that the fire doesn't burn past that
wall; because on the other side of that wall are
Republicans and Democrats. Am I right?

NORMAN: That's right. He is not looking at Mena; he
doesn't have the authority to from Janet Reno. He does
have authority to look at the Vince Foster death, but I
think only inasmuch as it relates to the Whitewater
situation. The whole thing is hemmed in and beyond that
is this whole national security blanket that has been
thrown over big parts of this thing that you couldn't
touch if you wanted to.

...

QUINN: I want to discuss a couple of things with you.
First of all, now it would appear that a bunch of
Republicans picking Kenneth Starr to put him in charge
of this investigation of Vince Foster and the
Whitewater problem in Washington, D.C. On the surface,
it looked like they were going for the jugular, but
see, Mr. Starr has some background that leads back to
the Inslaw case we discussed earlier in the show about
the Promis software and stuff. He excused himself from
that litigation.

NORMAN: And, the reason was because he was the inside
counsel for William French Smith at the Justice
Department in 1982 at the time that the Inslaw software
was expropriated by the government...

QUINN: Okay. So he really is not in the position to be
the pit bull to expose this. He is in a better position
to get Clinton on whatever Republicans need to get him
on and make sure that Republicans don't get burned
here.

NORMAN: I think that's it. Yeah.

--- END ---

-----
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct  5 10:29:01 PDT 1996
Article: 95779 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Kill File area51@ix.netcom.com (RH)
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 06:04:40 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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References: <32518667.30F1@globaldialog.com> <32516b9c.7721026@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3251A99C.2E@globaldialog.com> <3251ab25.11061949@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3251C28C.5263@globaldialog.com> <3251c43e.17486197@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3251DD51.42D3@globaldialog.com> <3251de4d.24156344@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <325260C1.1DA2@globaldialog.com> <32531496.898078@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <32531EA5.6610@globaldialog.com> <32562d9d.7055390@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <32534D51.6A85@globaldialog.com> <32644fe9.6623900@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <530gvo$l5g@newshost.cyberramp.net> <32543D7F.72F6@globaldialog.com> <531gb7$11a@newshost.cyberramp.net> <32544F6C.5B6C@globaldialog.com> <32629534.14153678@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3254A0E1.2E49@globaldialog.com>
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"John Q. Public"  wrote:

>These are facts. Have the courage to deal with them.

Why in the world are you wasting any more time on
"Richard Hanson"?

He just flooded the Usenet once again with a barrage of
messages that were filled with verbal abuse and not a
single attempt to present a fact or a rational
argument.

He's proved once again that he's a malicious vandal,
and that the official position on Fostergate is
desperately bankrupt. If the Fiske Report defenders
were on solid ground, they wouldn't need to fall back
on the sleazy tactics of "Hanson." They would be able
to get into a legitimate debate and win their case. But
they can't. When the subject comes up, they are reduced
to trying to jam the channel.

But the culture and technology of the Internet works
against malicious jammers like "Hanson." All they
succeed in doing is turning everyone off and insuring
that their audience will shrink with each message they
post.

I just did myself a big favor and kill filed
area51@ix.netcom.com (RH). I strongly recommend
everyone else to do the same, if they are concerned
about their news readers overflowing with toxic
pollution.

"Hanson" is the most obnoxious and useless user on the
Internet I've encountered, bar none--the precise polar
opposite of Hugh Sprunt. He has made no substantive
contribution whatever to any thread I've seen him
attempt to destroy.

Those who have been involved in some of the shady
dealings around Clinton should take a good look at
themselves and at the sorts of allies they've managed
to attract. Imagine having a "Hanson" in your corner.
Phew....

-----
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct  6 09:14:51 PDT 1996
Article: 95961 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 22:04:56 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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mross@goldengate.net (Michael King Ross) wrote:

>>But the Fiske Report has been demolished on the
>>Internet by knowledgeable analysts like Hugh Sprunt.
>
>LOL!!!!  ROTFLOL!!!!  You forget - we're all familiar with "the
>Internet" and just exactly how level-headed some of its denizens are.

>Sorry, I don't know what the Fiske report specifically says....

That's yourself you're laughing at, correct? You are in
no position to discuss the merits of the Fiske report
or the facts regarding Foster's death. "I don't know
what the Fiske report specifically says" indeed.

>>What are people like you who are involved in the
>>cover-up of Fostergate going to do with the Internet?
>
>LOL!!!    Ignore it.  Did you think "the Internet" had some sort of
>power?  Some sort of respectability?  Some sort of credibility?

I see much more in the way of intelligence and facts on
the Internet than I see anywhere in the big media. The
fortunes and influence of the Internet will continue to
rise, while that of the traditional media will continue
to fall. The pretty talking heads in the traditional
media for the most part do very poorly in policy
debates with those who often possess advanced degrees
>from  the world's leading universities.

Weak cases presented by people like yourself are
quickly weeded out. The strong cases--like those
presented by Hugh Sprunt--automatically rise to the
surface. Obnoxious vandals with no case at all--like
the infamous "Richard Hanson"--can be filtered out and
turned off with the flick of a switch.

I am presently working out a protocol for conducting
formal debates on the Usenet, by the way. Perhaps you'd
like to participate in one of these affairs with Sprunt
on Fostergate. Probably you should make an effort to
read the Fiske Report first.

-----
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue Oct  8 09:23:25 PDT 1996
Article: 96876 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!pravda.aa.msen.com!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy,alt.journalism,alt.news-media
Subject: The Big Media and Filegate
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 1996 14:50:51 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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"alt.ww"  wrote:

>AND THE MONO-PARTISAN MEDIA
>
>
>
>By Michael Barone
>
> 
>
>The Senate judiciary Committee reveals there is a
>six-month gap in the log of the White House's FBI files:
>A-10 in the Washington Post, no mention at all in a B-1 3
>story on the subject in the New York Times.  Not exactly
>the way the 18-and-a-half-minute gap in the White House
>tapes was treated.

The way that the big media are covering Filegate in
general, and the six-month gap in the log in
particular, is absolutely astonishing.

Barone is speaking the truth when he remarks that if
the Filegate offenses had been committed by any
Republican administration, the big media would be
blaring sustained moral outrage and investing
substantial resources into investigating the affair.

There can be no question whatever at this point that
the major media are involved in a systematic and
energetic campaign to keep the truth about Filegate and
all the other Clinton scandals from getting out. They
have completely turned their traditional journalistic
mission upside down: the name of the game now is to
conceal the truth, not reveal it.

One extraordinary revelation after another has emerged
about the Clinton administration (the six-month gap in
the FBI files log is only the latest), only to be
smothered and buried by the collective weight of The
New York Times, The Washington Post and other dominant
members of the incestuous big media clique.

We've really got something resembling a Stalinist media
establishment these days: all of its energy is being
invested into protecting a single leader and
personality. Media bias this extreme could be laying
the groundwork for a revolution--and not necessarily a
metaphorical one.

-----
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue Oct  8 13:08:01 PDT 1996
Article: 96944 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!thor.atcon.com!eru.mt.luth.se!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Vince Foster Suicide..Cong. Barney Frank requests investigation
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:43:08 GMT
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wyldman@ix.netcom.com   (UltraZ) wrote:

>October 6, 1996
>The Boston Globe...Boston, MA
>
>Congressman Barney Frank (D) has requested congress to reopen the
>alleged suicide of Vince Foster.  Because of circumstances which are
>suspect including conflicting medial reports and many errors which are
>inconclusive congress will consider the request.  it is felt that the
>majority of Republicans will support Frank in his request, it will no
>reconvene until after the election.  One would assume the future
>congress would be just as interested as the present congress in
>sifting through data from medical records and subpoena various people
>who were in contact with Foster.
>UltraZ

That's interesting news, indeed. Note well that Barney
Frank is a Democrat and a liberal. Fostergate is not a
Democratic/Republican, liberal/conservative issue. It
is an American issue, period.

Those who have tried to turn the issue into a partisan
holy war aren't thinking very carefully.

It's quite possible, in fact, that whatever conspiracy
may lie behind Foster's death may lead back to the
Republicans and Bill Casey, not the Democrats.
The issue of Inslaw and Promis has come up repeatedly
in connection with Foster's name. From what I've read,
spying on the world's banking transactions was
primarily Bill Casey's pet project. If in fact we
acquired the ability to do this, the capability would
rank among the highest order national security secrets.
This issue alone could have gotten Foster into deep
trouble, if there was any indication that he was on the
verge of spilling state secrets.

It's not unlikely that both Mena and Fostergate, the
two most volatile scandals in the complex of supposed
"Clinton Scandals," are bigger problems for the
Republicans than the Democrats.

If Swopa, RH and the other robots here could manage to
put their thinking caps on a for a second, they might
start pushing for full investigations into Mena and
Fostergate. Obviously Barney Frank is wearing his
thinking cap and hasn't fallen into the short-sighted
trap of believing that the fortunes of his party or
ideology are riding on the outcome of a full
investigation into Fostergate. Congratulations, Barney,
for exhibiting some originality. I'm not especially a
political supporter of Frank's, but he's no robot.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue Oct  8 13:08:02 PDT 1996
Article: 96950 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.politics.media
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 1996 15:53:09 GMT
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phenry@halcyon.com (Paul H. Henry) wrote:

>> I see much more in the way of intelligence and facts on
>> the Internet than I see anywhere in the big media.
>
>Yeah, those "MAKE MONEY FAST" and "XXX NEKKID GERLS!!!!!!1!!1! XXX" posts
>really do a lot for this medium. Could it be that you see more credibility
>on the Internet because the mainstream media is too smart to air your
>wacko konspiracy theories?

Have you really paid any attention to advertising on
television lately? Do you really think that the
Internet is more afflicted with stupid advertising than
the big media? Look again.

If you know how to use the Internet intelligently, with
well-crafted filters, you can find a wealth of
information on many subjects that the big media have
crudely censored.

The debate about Fostergate, for instance, among the
brighter members of the Internet, has far exceeded in
depth and quality anything I've seen in the major
media. The Internet is the place to go when you want to
study all the facts and information that the major
media have censored. The big media are increasingly
becoming recognized as purveyors of pap, the choice of
last resort when seeking to become informed about
current events.

With regard to "konspiracy theories": I have one
question for you, Mr. Henry: why haven't the big media
authenticated Vince Foster's alleged suicide note?

A majority of experts who have examined the note have
declared it to be a forgery. The big media are afraid
to take on this issue, although they expended much
effort in analyzing Joe Klein's writing.

Do you have a good answer to this question? No one else
here does.

There is an obvious answer: the note is indeed a
forgery, and reputable experts won't authenticate it.

If the note is a forgery, we are most assuredly looking
at a major conspiracy in the matter of Vince Foster.

Try exercising your common sense, sir.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct  9 14:08:59 PDT 1996
Article: 97259 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: The Israeli Factor in the Clinton Scandals
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:03:56 GMT
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Martin McPhillips  wrote:

><extraordinarily hypersensitive about Israel, Mr. McPhillips?
>And why are you convinced that Fostergate is merely a
>story of local Arkansas corruption? If Norman's story is
>even partly true, it would explain why the Republican
>establishment has been afraid to touch Fostergate.>>
>
>First of all, I don't know what Sussman's view is on
>any of these things. 

I DO know what Sussman's views are on these matters: he
is deeply emotional about the state of Israel, and he
appears to be ideologically aligned with right-wing
Israeli extremists. He deeply resents any discussion
which reflects negatively on israel.

>I am a little more familiar with Public's view, because it
>is closer to mine. And my view is that in the absence
>of any substantiating facts, the Norman story is a diversion
>vis a vis the murder of Vincent Foster.

You and JQP have matters turned upside down, in my
opinion. The Arkansas scandals are a diversion from
much more serious national security scandals. Granted:
the Arkansas scandals and the national security
scandals are probably deeply entwined, especially in
Mena.

>There is, in fact, a pretty good motive for Foster's
>murder, which involves not what Norman alleges Foster
>did, but what Foster knew about the Clintons. What
>he knew about the Clintons, on what was apparently the
>eve of his resignation from the "political family,"
>was easily enough to scuttle their entire Presidency.
>
>That's a better motive for the Murder of the President's
>lawyer, than the notion that Israel had some benefit
>to be gained from murdering the President's lawyer.

Why in the world would Foster have betrayed the
Clintons? On the other hand, if his role as an Israeli
spy had been exposed, the situation would have been
completely out of his control, no matter what he said
or did. His masters would have felt an urgent need to
silence him immediately. There are many credible
reports that this is precisely what happened in the
case of Robert Maxwell's mysterious death.

>One would think that a state, like Israel, still involved
>in a struggle for its own survival, would find alternative
>ways to solve a possible spying scandal than to murder
>the lawyer to the President of the United States.

Have you been paying attention to how many incredible
blunders Israel has been making in recent years? They
are fully capable of getting trapped in the Foster
mess.

Benjamin Netanyahu in recent weeks has, in so many
words, told America to fuck off. Do you think this is
smart?

>That pretty much wraps up my view on this, but I don't
>think it's the first time I've made this clear to you, so
>hold onto it this time.

I understand your view perfectly. It makes no sense to
me. The stumbling block as usual is your failure to
explain why so many Republican leaders have refused to
exploit the opportunity to damage Bill Clinton
politically by using the various scandals swirling
around him. Something is up, Martin, something much
larger than a few shady Arkansas business deals.

>The Norman thesis, in which Vince Foster is portrayed
>not just as a criminal himself, but as a traitor
>to his country, is, in my opinion, a concocted
>cover story, fed to Norman by people by whom
>Norman was impressed. Norman's story is the
>"Vince needed killin'" explanation for Foster's
>death, and it attempts to spread responsibility
>everywhere, from Caspar Weinberger to Israel, to
>the classic black box--NSA--everywhere but the
>White House, which is where Foster worked, worked
>for the President of the United States, and to which
>is where the evidence leads, and where the best
>motive is found, and where *all* of the answers
>to your questions and mine will be found.

Martin, you are making no sense. Are we really to
believe that J. Orlin Grabbe is a secret supporter of
Bill and Hillary Clinton? This theory won't fly.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct  9 14:09:01 PDT 1996
Article: 97261 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 14:29:28 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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jmoore3@ix.netcom.com(John Moore ) wrote:

>> just
>>tryin' to play the game...   Speculation seems to be the name of that
>>game.
>>
>
>You must confine your speculation within the bounds of known evidence,
>not a wish list of desirable but unfounded possibilities.
>
>Now, you still have not answered my question to you two posts ago. 
>
>Can you show by the available evidence that Mr. Foster committed
>suicide and in doing so show how the Ft. Marcy gun was used without
>contradicting the evidence?

The behavior and "arguments" of Michael King Ross,
"Richard Hanson," "Pat Parson," Swopa and others of
their ilk do more to arouse suspicions about Fostergate
than any other factor for me.

The supporters of the Fiske Report can provide NO ONE
to mount a credible defense of the report, based on a
fair analysis of the known facts. The defenders all
characteristically rely on verbal abuse to try to bully
their way through the mess.

Not one of them has offered a credible explanation of
why the big media have refused to authenticate Vince
Foster's alleged suicide note. Clearly no explanation
is going to be forthcoming. The real answer is obvious:
they can't authenticate the note.

Whoever forged that note may well have been involved in
a conspiracy to murder Vince Foster. White House
scandals don't get bigger than this. Watergate was a
trivial affair by comparison.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct  9 14:09:02 PDT 1996
Article: 97288 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:35:38 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <326ee135.19948325@news.cybercom.net>
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phenry@halcyon.com (Paul H. Henry) wrote:

>Of course not. It was not forged. If it was forged, the forger would have
>said, very clearly, "I am taking my own life," or words to that effect. No
>one could be so stupid as to forge a suicide note that doesn't say
>anywhere it it that the purported writer is about to commit suicide.

On what basis do you make the claim that the note was
not forged? Are you an expert on the authentication of
handwriting and documents? Please lay out your evidence
that the note was not forged, and let us all examine it
for its credibility.

The amateurs who handled the Foster business may well
have been dumber than lampposts. As Napoleon (or
someone) once said: It was worse than a crime; it was a
blunder.

Why won't the big media authenticate the alleged
suicide note, in the same way they used document
experts to track down the author of "Primary Colors"?
The answer is abundantly obvious: they are terrified of
what an honest analysis would reveal.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct  9 14:09:03 PDT 1996
Article: 97306 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: PICTURES. Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 17:49:02 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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rivero@accessone.com (Michael Rivero) wrote:

>  Paul Henry went so far as to bemoan the fact that I can't be jailed
>under the Sedition Act....

There is that acrid odor of Stalinism once again. It's
unmistakable.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct  9 14:09:04 PDT 1996
Article: 97326 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:01:43 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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phenry@halcyon.com (Paul H. Henry) wrote:

>The recoil propelled--aw, never mind. If you haven't figured it out by
>now, this message ain't going to convince you. I'm going to bed.

What you have failed to grasp, Mr. Henry, is that it is
not this one point of controversy alone, or even a few
points of controversy, that have made so many people so
skeptical about the official report on Foster's death.
It is a *multitude* of points of controversy, all of
which consistently point to a scenario of foul play.

I could have easily lived with a few controversial
points. The issue of the forged suicide note finally
pushed me over into the camp of skeptics.

Why won't the big media authenticate Foster's alleged
suicide note?

Why has Bernard Nussbaum's behavior surrounding the
affair been so slippery and suspicious? Why does his
palmprint appear on Foster's alleged suicide note, when
Foster's own fingerprints don't appear on the note?

Fostergate reeks big time. Wake up and smell the
coffee.
--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct  9 17:46:30 PDT 1996
Article: 97336 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.news-media
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 19:41:53 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <327dffff.27831073@news.cybercom.net>
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mross@goldengate.net (Michael King Ross) wrote:

>Because I live in the real world.  I only look into the internet
>through a window, but I live in the _real_ world....

Your grasp of "the real world" appears to be rather
weak. Check out the demographics and psychographics of
Internet users--they tend strongly to be movers and
shakers in the real world, very bright and affluent.

The initiative in setting the public policy agenda is
rapidly moving away from the traditional big media and
towards the Internet. The least bright members of
society will be the last to cling to the traditional
media as their primary source of information about the
"real" world. Increasingly the real world--the world
with the greatest social and political impact--is the
Internet.

You have to raise these tangential issues, of course,
because you are completely ignorant about the facts
concerning Vince Foster's death. You haven't made a
single informed statement about the issue yet. This is
a clear pattern by now: defenders of the Fiske Report
rely strongly on verbal abuse to try to bully their way
through the controversy. The greater the abuse and
evasions, the stronger the scent for the inexorable
hounds. This rhetorical loop has a certain
conclusion....

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct  9 17:46:32 PDT 1996
Article: 97360 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Kill File area51@ix.netcom.com (RH)
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 21:17:54 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <3284157a.33331143@news.cybercom.net>
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bbottoms@rouge.net (Bear Bottoms) wrote:

>I do not know very much about RH.  I have been reading your articles
>along with Rivero's.  I happen to know the facts about certain things
>Rivero has been spreading his rhetoric about, and he is no where close
>to the truth.  In fact, he is outright lying.  Your postings are ill
>informed also.

By all means describe what facts you know, and cite
your sources. It is my regard for the facts that has
led me to be skeptical about the conclusions of the
Fiske Report.

> I don't know where you guys get these ideas from
>(that's all they are, not a single fact) but I have a clue as to your
>purpose.  You two guys have the most postings in the newsgroups and it
>is so obvious that your only purpose is to bash Clinton.

I have repeatedly said that I prefer Bill Clinton to
Bob Dole as a presidential candidate, and that I
believe that some of the so-called Clinton scandals may
be bigger problems for the Republicans than the
Democrats.

Just how wrong can you be?

You didn't manage to address a single fact correctly in
the first post I've seen from you. Another defender of
the Fiske Report bites the dust. Keep them coming. This
is fun.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Oct 10 01:36:12 PDT 1996
Article: 97429 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 02:37:14 GMT
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mross@goldengate.net (Michael King Ross) wrote:

>All of them - you don't know whether I am the Chief Investigator of
>the Vincent Foster Affair or a drooling madhouse inmate with access to
>a keyboard.  You can only judge people on the internet by listening to
>what they say and thinking for yourself.  To say "the Fiske report has
>been demolished on the internet" is like saying "some guy I've never
>met and have never even heard of says aliens landed and ate
>Cleveland".  Anybody can say anything on the net, and there doesn't
>have to be a shred of truth behind it.  You need to appeal to more
>believable sources than "the internet".

I said the Fiske Report has been demolished on the
Internet because I have carefully read hundreds of
exchanges between Hugh Sprunt--who wrote the "Citizen's
Independent Report," a powerful critique of the
report--and the defenders of the report.

We'll set aside the fact that Hugh Sprunt has two
degrees from MIT--a BS and MS as I recall--and two
degrees from Stanford--from the business and law
schools, an MBA and a JD.

I know strong thinking when I see it, and Sprunt is one
of the strongest thinkers I have seen in cyberspace.
Those who have attempted to engage Sprunt in debate
have made utter asses of themselves.

The easiest way to make a fool of yourself is to try to
defend the conclusions of the Fiske Report. The
brightest and most clever lawyer in the world would
probably dismiss defending the report as a hopeless
case--they wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. Only
a propaganda robot like "Richard Hanson" or a
Swopa--who is hopelessly ignorant about all technical
matters--would dare step into this doo-doo.

It is because the report as a whole is such a mess that
defenders of the report, like Gary Frazier, need to
rely on barrages of verbal abuse and personal insults
to make their case.

This crowd has done more to raise suspicions about
Fostergate in my mind than any other factor in the
controversy. Not a single human being on the planet can
mount a credible defense of the report when subjected
to fair and rational questioning. It is a joke.

The debate about the Fiske Report here has revealed the
Internet at its best. Nothing on the issue in the
traditional media has touched it. The days when the big
media can get away with telling lies about issues like
this are over.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Oct 10 01:36:13 PDT 1996
Article: 97430 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 02:41:30 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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mross@goldengate.net (Michael King Ross) wrote:

>1) _Somebody_ tore it up.  Why weren't those fingerprintes on the
>note?

Perhaps the person who tore up the note wore gloves to
conceal his identity. But Bernard Nussbaum was not
sufficiently careful in handling the note: his
palmprint appears on it, while Foster's fingerprints do
not.

>2)  What does the note have to do with Foster's death?

Why would someone forge a suicide note for Foster? One
logical explanation is that they were involved in a
conspiracy to murder and silence him.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Oct 10 09:54:13 PDT 1996
Article: 97546 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Vince Foster Suicide..Cong. Barney Frank requests investigation
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:22:01 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <325ee963.1062855@news.cybercom.net>
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SwopaTwo@aol.com (Swopa) wrote:

>Since you're in the Boston area, perhaps *you* can
>put on your thinking cap for a moment and tell us if
>the Boston Globe said any such thing about Barney
>Frank in the October 6, 1996 issue.  There's nothing
>about it in the online version of the paper.

Swopa,

This is a fair question,to say the least. I also
searched the archive and couldn't find the article.
On the other hand, The Boston Globe doesn't necessarily
put all its articles online.

I am waiting for UltraZ to explain where he obtained
his information. If the article was a hoax, I am going
to be deeply disappointed in the development. This
would be the first time I've seen someone provide a
false attribution for a supposed article. From now on
we would have to be especially on our guard in trusting
authoritatively cited documents on the net.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Oct 10 09:54:15 PDT 1996
Article: 97547 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 12:28:57 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <325fea95.1368991@news.cybercom.net>
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gfrazier@efn.org (Gary Frazier) wrote:

Son, you win an award for being one of the least
effective communicators in all of cyberspace.

One's credibility and persuasiveness, among INTELLIGENT
readers, is inversely proportional to the amount of
verbal abuse one relies on.

In one brief post you managed to pack the following
non-substantive dreck:

moron
dishonesty
whine
hatemonger's
sleazemeister
obsessive hate

You discussed not a single fact and offered not a
single substantive insight or argument about the
content of the Fiske Report.

Are you lacking all self-perspective about the image of
yourself you are presenting here?

Did none of your teachers or professors during your
educational career instruct you in elementary
techniques of effective communication?

Your every post is severely discrediting both yourself
and the official version on Foster's death.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 11 09:44:20 PDT 1996
Article: 97913 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:09:47 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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On Tue, 08 Oct 1996 12:38:47 -0600,
Karl_Auerbach@out.trw.com (Karl Auerbach) wrote:

>Physics is physics.  Ballistics MUST comply to the basic laws of physics.
>Any action MUST have an equal and opposite reaction. Momentum is ALWAYS
>conserved in our macroscopic world. This is imutable.
>
>You have not responded to the points Mr. Rivero brings up. In this reply,
>and others, you glibly ignore his points in favor of...well, whatever it is
>you favor. It does not appear that you seek anything other than your
>definition of victory, which is self-declared.

All the defenders of the Fiske Report share the
following characteristics--they are:

     abusive
     angry
     evasive
     irrational    
     unfactual
     unknowledgeable

They couldn't win a debate with a cabbage.

This rather tells one something about the credibility
of the conclusions of the report, and about the
Fostergate issue in general. A massive cover-up is
underway.

If the report was solid, it would be possible to defend
it in a confident, factual and logical way. Michael
Rivero managed to make his point quite effectively.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 12 12:14:39 PDT 1996
Article: 98344 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: The Credibility of the Fiske Report
Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 15:45:26 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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mross@goldengate.net (Michael King Ross) wrote:

>> >Perhaps you should be asking "why is it necesarily true that there
>> >would be blood on the weapon?"
>
>>  Even the Fiske Report (page 55) admitted that it's common to find blood
>>spatter on guns following a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
>
>Common, but it doesn't always happen.

Michael,

Many of the Fiske Report defenders seem to be missing
the forest for the trees.

You can point to an individual anomaly, and argue that
anomalies occur. True enough. I can easily let a few
anomalies slide.

What strains one's credulity statistically is to see
dozens of anomalies all clustered together in a
consistent pattern which strongly suggests foul play.

I think that any fair-minded and intelligent person who
considers this collection of anomalies objectively, and
who isn't driven by a partisan political agenda, will
honestly admit that the conclusions of the Fiske Report
are difficult to believe.

My chief question is this: Why won't the big media
authenticate Foster's alleged suicide note?

It is quite obvious that a massive cover-up is underway
in the affair of Vince Foster, with the full
cooperation of the plutocrats who own and run the big
media.

The interesting question is, precisely what interests
are being protected? My best guess is, the bipartisan
power elite that really runs the country. This is why
the Republican leadership has been conducting a love
fest with Bill Clinton. In the first debate, I fully
expected Bob Dole at any minute to trot over and plant
a kiss on Bill Clinton's anatomy.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 13 10:34:18 PDT 1996
Article: 98548 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!mr.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 01:42:40 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <328647d1.47893814@news.cybercom.net>
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rivero@accessone.com (Michael Rivero) wrote:

> Michael King Ross wrote:

>> Wayne McGuire wrote:

> >>All the defenders of the Fiske Report share the
> >>following characteristics--they are:
> >
> >>     abusive
> >>     angry
> >>     evasive
> >>     irrational    
> >>     unfactual
> >>     unknowledgeable
> >
> >>They couldn't win a debate with a cabbage.
> >
> >We've succeeded in trouncing every argument posted here - you still
> >have no credible evidence of a murder nor of a coverup.  You'll have
> >to do better than that.
> 
>    As usual, "King", you have it backwards. Murder doesn't have to be
>proven. Legally, murder is the STARTING PRESUMPTION until suicide is proven
>and nobody has yet come up with a single piece of evidence for suicide
>that is (as Allison phrases it) "Courtroom worthy".

Not only is our friend Michael King Ross woefully
uninformed about the details of the Fiske Report and
Hugh Sprunt's critique of it, but he is also incredibly
ignorant about the basic principles of American
jurisprudence.

This is the sort of person you find foolishly rushing
to defend the Fiske Report.

His fantasy about having "trounced" the critics of the
Fiske Report is truly laughable.

I am in the process of setting up some protocols for
formal debate on the Usenet. When everything is set up,
we will give Michael King Ross an opportunity to
demonstrate his "trouncing" prowess to the world in a
setting and format that is more formal and demanding
than the usual loose talk in this newsgroup.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 19 12:25:40 PDT 1996
Article: 100951 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Why Won't the Media Authenticate Foster's Note?
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:45:15 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Fred G. Athearn  wrote:

>    Wayne> It's a pity that the robotic defenders of the Fiske
>    Wayne> Report can't find a single big media outlet to
>    Wayne> authenticate Vince Foster's alleged suicide note.
>
>That seems like a strange place to go to get a document
>"authenticated".  Most media outlets just report news.  They
>don't pay people to make news.
>
>    Wayne> Isn't that right, Swopa? Apparently the subject,
>    Wayne> unlike Joe Klein's "Primary Colors," is too
>    Wayne> inconsequential for the big media to pursue.
>
>I think that they would report any newsworthy events.  They are
>just not willing to hire people to become the news.

Anyone who is still on the fence about Fostergate:
check out Fred G. Athearn's reply to my simple
question: Why won't the big media authenticate Vince
Foster's alleged suicide note?

The best answer that the defenders of the Fiske Report
can come up with is that the controversy over Foster's
death is not, in their estimation, newsworthy.

Consider: we have the death of a high American
government official, who was personally and
professionally close to the President of the United
States and his wife. The death is surrounded by dozens
of suspicious anomalies and questions.

A majority of the experts who have examined Foster's
suicide note have declared it to be a forgery. The news
regarding the forgery has been reported in leading
newspapers like The Boston Globe (which is where I
first read the story, and began to revise my views on
the Clinton scandals).

Many reports have surfaced, including one from a former
senior editor of Forbes magazine, that Foster was
deeply involved in espionage with both America and
Israel.

If in fact the note is a forgery, we are quite possibly
looking at one of the biggest scandals in American
political history.

There has been no follow-up whatever to the report that
appeared in The Boston Globe about the note being a
forgery.

If the note was not forged, it is reasonable to expect
that the big media by now would have hired document and
handwriting experts to lay this disturbing story to
rest. They have to be fully aware that this controversy
is still buzzing on the global Internet, and won't go
away.

They have not done so. Authenticating the note would
require much less effort than getting to the bottom of
the "Primary Colors" tempest in a teapot. The
reasonable conclusion is that they can't authenticate
the note, and are joining with the Clinton
administration in stonewalling on the issue by
pretending that it doesn't exist. The big media have
effectively arranged themselves around Bill Clinton as
his bodyguard of lies. They have long ago dropped any
pretense of being objective journalists in search of
the truth.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 20 14:31:44 PDT 1996
Article: 101594 of alt.conspiracy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.icix.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Public Reopens Foster Case, Challenges Suicide Believers (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 18:45:17 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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jmoore3@ix.netcom.com(John Moore ) wrote:

>In  Fred G. Athearn 
>writes: 
>
>>
>>I still don't understand why these conservative Republicans would
>>be in on this claimed "massive cover-up".
>
>Several comments on this. First just because you don't understand
>something doesn't mean it isn't likely. Maybe you aren't the only one
>who doesn't understand this. However it is quite clear that the current
>Republican election campaigns are making no mention of Foster. Given
>the vast contradictions and deceptions in Foster, described in this NG,
>it is not clear why Republicans are not making political hay with such
>a powerful issue. One can only surmise that Foster is a two-edged
>political sword.

It has been obvious to some of us for quite a few
months now that many of the so-called "Clinton
Scandals" are in fact bipartisan political scandals
involving important Republicans, including Ronald
Reagan, Bill Casey, Oliver North and others.

Mena, Fostergate and other scandals are not Democratic
or liberal scandals; in fact, they may be predominantly
Republican scandals.

This explains why Bob Dole, Newt Gingrich and other
leading Republicans are afraid to mention any of the
well-known scandals. A full exposure of the scandals
would bring down much of the Republican-Democratic
establishment. A majority of our political leaders
would probably have to resign in disgrace and perhaps
be shipped off to prisons.

Republicans and Democrats are now mutually circling the
wagons to protect their interests. This is why the
presidential "debates" have been lovefests.

If any of these scandals do break open, we will
probably see one of the greatest political upheavals in
American history. Do not underestimate, however, the
will of the corrupted sector of the establishment to do
whatever is necessary to protect its power, wealth and
privilege.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 20 18:31:58 PDT 1996
Article: 101628 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Public Reopens Foster Case, Challenges Suicide Believers (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers)
Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 21:16:30 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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rivero@accessone.com (Michael Rivero) wrote:

>  Fred's been pushing this one hard, as if Foster wasn't found under shade
>trees with his hand shading the gun, and ignoring the fact that one
>NON-Foster fingerprint was on the gun.
>
>  Fred wants you to believe that ONLY Foster's fingerprints melted off of
>the gun in just a few hours of shade.
>
>  Fred is just another dumb ass disinfo spook. He admitted he didn't read
>any of the official reports on Foster, the bragged how proud he would be
>to be fooled by a government lie, as if mindlessness were the true mark
>of a patriot.

I've been following Fred Athearn's "debate" with John
Moore and others. The fact that none of the Fiske
Report defenders are able to deal honestly and
intelligently with the facts of the case is one of the
primary reasons some of us have been convinced that
there is in fact a Fostergate scandal that needs to be
investigated.

Also, you will notice that there is a tone of political
hysteria coming from all the defenders of the report:
all of them apparently feel that overturning the
conclusions of the Fiske Report would damage Bill
Clinton and the Democratic and liberal cause.
Fostergate for all these people is a heated partisan
issue. They care not a whit for the truth. Their only
concern is winning the coming election.

Thus their analysis of the case, to the extent that
they attempt to provide any analysis at all, as opposed
to mud-slinging, is unreliable, to say the least.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon Oct 21 07:35:20 PDT 1996
Article: 101865 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Public Reopens Foster Case, Challenges Suicide Believers (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 13:20:43 GMT
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jmoore3@ix.netcom.com(John Moore ) wrote:

>The evidence says murder. The information needed to establish motive is
>not as clear or strong as that for homicide. I see Mr. Starr's
>anticipated report as the first evidence exposing motive.

John,

If Fostergate is a high-level national security
case--and I am convinced by the preponderance of
information and evidence that it is--then it is highly
likely that Kenneth Starr will contribute to the
cover-up. If he didn't, his career would be finished or
worse.

The question we would have then is, is this a
legitimate national security blackout or an
illegitimate national security blackout? Are real
national security interests being protected, or the
interests of a small group of top-level insiders who
broke the law for indefensible reasons?

It is impossible to say so far on the basis of the
available information.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Mon Oct 21 13:16:10 PDT 1996
Article: 101932 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Public Reopens Foster Case, Challenges Suicide Believers (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers)
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:37:12 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Fred G. Athearn  wrote:

>>>>>> "Wayne" == Wayne McGuire  writes:
>    Wayne> Also, you will notice that there is a tone of
>    Wayne> political hysteria coming from all the defenders of
>    Wayne> the report: all of them apparently feel that
>    Wayne> overturning the conclusions of the Fiske Report would
>    Wayne> damage Bill Clinton and the Democratic and liberal
>    Wayne> cause.  Fostergate for all these people is a heated
>    Wayne> partisan issue. They care not a whit for the
>    Wayne> truth. Their only concern is winning the coming
>    Wayne> election.
>
>This seems odd for you to say you feel that way about me.
>Somehow I had gotten the feeling that everything that *you* did
>on the net is a heated partisan attack on the Clinton
>administration.
>
>Can you see why it might seem that way to some?

Only for people who can't read English, Fred, and who have
a total disregard for the truth.

I've stated repeatedly that the so-called "Clinton scandals"
are probably a bipartisan mess that may damage the
Republicans more than the Democrats, and that I prefer Bill
Clinton over Bob Dole. It looks to me like most of Clinton's
most serious problems lead back to Bill Casey.

It comes as no surprise that someone who grossly distorts
my views is incapable of dealing in a rational and honest
way with all the evidence pertaining to Vince Foster's death.
Your brain is so overheated with partisan fanaticism that it
is unable to process objective information about the real
world.

It is this lack of honesty and rationality that one sees rampant
among so many Clinton true believers here that suggests that
their cause could be in far deeper trouble than they imagine.

Once we have formal debating protocols established on the
Usenet, it will become glaringly apparent how inadequate 
have been the efforts by people like you, Gary Frazier, Swopa
and Michael King Ross to defend the conclusions of the
Fiske Report.

I am accustomed to taking unpopular and minority positions
and being vindicated by events. I've never seen a safer and
juicier minority position to take than ridiculing the conclusions
of the Fiske Report. They are absurd on their face, in light of
the facts which the report itself presents. You have been 
forced to tie yourself up in knots in your efforts to defend
those conclusions. The spectacle is delightful.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue Oct 22 08:35:41 PDT 1996
Article: 102057 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Public Reopens Foster Case, Challenges Suicide Believers (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 02:12:29 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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rivero@accessone.com (Michael Rivero) wrote:

>  There is no evidence of a real National Security issue behind the Foster
>murder (depsite the false trails laid last year fingering the Mossad).
>There is evidence that the present occupant of the White House financed
>his rise to power with drug money, and is using National Security to protect
>that cashflow. Everyone else who benefits from the drug cashflow is
>assisting the coverup.
>
>  Foster was murdered to protect the drug money.

How could Clinton get away with such a scheme without
being stopped dead in his tracks by the American
intelligence community? Wouldn't the AIC be fully aware
of all of Clinton's secret connections and dealings?
Why would they go along with this criminal enterprise?



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue Oct 22 23:23:07 PDT 1996
Article: 102228 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.current-events.arkansas.mena,alt.politics.corruption.mena,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.org.cia,alt.conspiracy,alt.journalism,alt.politics.media,alt.politics.usa.republican
Subject: Re: Gene Lyons, L.D. Brown & Jerry Seper
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:10:07 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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lar-jen@interaccess.com (Larry-Jennie) wrote:

>Therefore, Lyons uses disinformation from "journalist" Seper to discredit 
>L.D. Brown.  L.D. Brown does not discredit himself.  A WASHINGTON TIMES
>"journalist" does the deed.
>
>Seper lied, not Brown.  And Lyons used the lie to smear L.D. Brown and 
>Roger Morris.  Dirty pool.

Does it come as any surprise that Swopa would latch on to 
Lyons as a "reputable" authority? Both Lyons and Swopa are
fond of the same dishonest tactics.


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct 23 00:06:22 PDT 1996
Article: 329970 of talk.politics.guns
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.ronald-reagan,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.correct,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.poli
Subject: Re: How Vince Foster was assassinated (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers: why no mess?)
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:02:15 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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mross@goldengate.net (Michael King Ross) wrote:

>Check your pockets again. It's easy to miss car keys when searching
>one's pockets.

I've tried the experiment. It's impossible to miss car
keys when searching pockets. They are relatively bulky
and hard objects. A small slip of paper one might miss.
Maybe even a paper clip. Not car keys, especially by
someone who was a trained searcher and who was looking
carefully.

Defenders of the Fiske Report, and
Clinton/Democratic/liberal zealots who believe their
political agenda is contingent on protecting the
murderers of Vince Foster, have shown no hesitancy in
violating basic common sense again and again.

If they believed that exposing the truth about Foster
would help the Democratic/liberal cause, their
interpretation of the raw data in the Fiske Report
would do a 180. Swopa would be arguing the same case
that Michael Rivero has made.

All of the dozens of egregious anomalies in the Foster
case consistently point to one scenario. It's
impossible to miss, once you lay all the partisan
considerations aside and exercise your God-given
intelligence. You don't need to be Columbo to smell
something fishy in Fostergate.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct 23 09:10:25 PDT 1996
Article: 490785 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 02:51:39 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Del  wrote:

>Leftists, on the other hand, despise nationalism and racism, and they
> believe governments exist solely for the sake of levelling out social 
>and economic inequalities within and between nations.  If Leftists agree
> on one thing, it is that aristocracies and dictatorships based on the
> notion of racial superiority are the most *evil* forms of government.

The main difference between militant rightists and
militant leftists in the 20th century is that militant
leftists committed much more murder and mayhem--all in
the name of enlightened progressive principles.

According to R. J. Rummel in "Death by Government,"
Marxist regimes have murdered more than 100 million
innocent civilians in this century--the equivalent of
of 100 Holocausts.

The self-righteousness of the militant left is matched
only by its bloodthirstiness and hostility to freedom
and human rights.

Even after the extent of Stalin's atrocities were
well-known in the West--the Soviet Union murdered more
than 20 million innocent civilians in the thirties
alone--important sectors of the left in Western Europe
and the U.S. continued to act as apologists for various
Marxist ideologies. The New York Times played a major
role in covering up Stalin's crimes in the thirties,
which arguably exceeded in horror the crimes of Hitler
that were to follow.

None of this excuses the political crimes of the right,
of course. But it is important to keep the relative
criminality in perspective. Marxism overall inspired
the greatest criminal political enterprise in world
history, as measured by the loss of life and human
rights.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct 23 09:30:07 PDT 1996
Article: 81564 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 01:00:39 GMT
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backon@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

>In article <54bt73$363@zap.io.org>, sperry@zap.io.org (ken) writes:
>> To all readers of tpm and sci newsgroups,
>> 
>> I have been asked to forward any threatening posts (or veiled threats) of
>> reader Brendan Mckay to his employer, the Australian National University.
>> If you feel you have been threatened in any way my this man, please e-mail
>> me his post, with your comments, and if I feel your comments are correct, I
>> will forward his post to the proper authorities at ANU, for their review and
>> investigation.  Let me just say that his employer is sufficiently interested
>> now in the postings of its employee Mckay in these newsgroups.
>
>
>You are out of your mind. I have been interacting with Professor Brendan
>McKay over the net for over 7 years. I may not like what he writes but
>Brendan has INTEGRITY.

Josh,

You hit the nail on the head in your first sentence:
Ken Sperry is out of his mind. Brendan McKay is
threatening only to those who find it intolerable to
debate an opponent with a superior intellect and a
superior command of the facts.

I'm curious: do you think Sperry also owes me an
apology? Do you think I've posted anything
anti-Semitic?

[This is a rhetorical question, with no need for an
answer; as you know, Josh, we've already discussed
these matters in private mail. I suspect we still
disagree in the strongest possible terms on a number of
political and ideological issues, including regarding
the policies of the Netanyahu government, but I don't
doubt for a second that you are fundamentally a person
of decency and good will, who also possesses a
formidable mind. You flame sometimes, magnificently,
but so, too, do I. I'm in no position to cast stones on
the flaming issue.]

Unabashed self-promotional mode on:

As far as I'm concerned, I should be in line for a
Righteous Gentile medal. I had the guts to say many
things about problems in Israeli society and Zionist
culture that needed to be said, and that in retrospect
have proved to be remarkably prophetic.

Many of the insights and observations I offered a few
years ago which seemed outrageous are now clichés in
mainstream Israeli society. I was just a few years
ahead of my time in daring to utter the obvious.

I haven't bothered arguing Mideast politics for some
time because the argument has been won: after Baruch
Goldstein and Yigal Amir, the entire world is now fully
aware of the dangers of religious fundamentalism and
secular messianism in Israeli society. Neither Bill
Clinton nor Bob Dole came to the defense of the
Netanyahu government in their debates. Religious
fundamentalists and secular messianists in Zionist
culture are now standing alone against the entire
world, including the U.S.

Let everyone here note carefully that Sperry's zealotry
has led him to harass the employers of someone with
whom he has engaged in political debate on the Usenet.
Clearly he is attempting to get Brendan McKay fired
and/or silenced (although it seems likely that McKay's
colleagues will find Sperry's efforts to be laughable).
This is absolutely the worst kind of fanaticism. I
can't remember any other case like it in my long
experience of cyberspace. Vindictive zealots like
Sperry, who are unable to defend their views rationally
in free and open debate, are doing little to help
Israel's problematic image in the world.

Thank God there are more than enough Josh Backons to
counter the unfortunate effects of the Ken Sperrys.

Wayne



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct 23 09:30:08 PDT 1996
Article: 81590 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel
Subject: United States of Palestine
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 19:57:33 GMT
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I thought I'd share with others here my reaction to
one of the most valuable posts I've ever seen made
in these newsgroups. My response to Josh Backon's
proposal for a United States of Palestine appears first;
Josh's proposal appears second.

Wayne

-- BEGIN: Wayne on Josh's Proposal ---

On Tue, 22 Oct 1996 10:22:16 -0400, BACKON@HUJIVMS
wrote:

>What do you think ?

Incredible, Josh: I don't think I've seen a post from
you in which I've been in greater agreement. Your
proposal is brilliant. I see nothing in the scheme to
which the Palestinians could possibly object. If
implemented, the Backon Plan could put to rest for all
time the Israeli-Palestinian, Israeli-Arab and
Israeli-Muslim conflicts.

If Israel forthrightly put this proposal on the table,
where the whole world could see it, it would be put up
or shut up time for the Palestinians, Arabs and
Muslims. No reasonable person could expect that the
Palestinians would ever be offered a better deal from
the Israelis than this. Any collapse of the peace
process from that point on would be blamed completely
on the Arab side of the conflict. Israel would possess
the higher ground morally in the Western world.

It's too bad you're not PM at the moment!  You might
be able to extricate Israel from the ever-deepening
trap in which it seems to be entangled. I see an image
in my mind of Benjamin Netanyahu sinking into
quicksand; every move he makes seems to worsen his
predicament.

Wayne

--- END ---

--- BEGIN: Josh's Proposal ---

Regarding zero sum games: in the following scenario EVERY party benefits:

PALESTINIANS:

1. convene the PNC and vote to completely abolish, make null and void, the
paragraphs in the Palestine Covenant that call for the destruction of
Israel. "We hereby make null and void the following paragraphs......
(full text given) and promise not to replace these paragraphs with any
new conditions".

ISRAEL: (after the above is carried out):

1) pulls out ALL of its military troops from Hebron, perhaps leaving
a token police unit (or with a UN contingent);

2) dismantles Netzarim and Kfar Darom settlements in the Gaza Strip,
resettling them in the Gush Katif area. This would nearly double the
area controlled by the Palestinians;

3. recognizes the Temple Mount area in Jerusalem as AREA A (Palestinian
control)

4. recognizes Yasser Arafat as president of the independent country
called the UNITED STATES OF PALESTINE comprising all areas under AREA A
(Gaza, Bethlehem, Ramallah, Nablus, Jenin, etc.)

5. annexes all of AREA C (Kiryat Arba, Gush Etzion, Maaleh Adumim,
Jordan valley settlements, and all settlements in the territories).

6. releases all prisoners (incl. Sheikh Yassin).

7. allows 1,000,000 Palestinians from abroad to enter Area A.


COMMENTS:

1. Palestinians residing in area B would automatically get Palestinian
citizenship and would be protected by their Palestinian passport. They
would vote in elections and could be elected to office.

2. These residents would obviously continue with their total autonomy
in education, health, welfare, water, police, etc.

3. There is no need for contiguity between the Palestinian states (e.g.
Jenin and Ramallah). Is New Hampshire continguous with Arizona ??

4. The EEC European Community model would be effect with free passage of
goods and services (but not of people from Areas A to C).

5. EAST JERUSALEML Arab residents could either continue keeping their
Jordanian citizenship, opt for Israeli citizenship (as many thousands
have), or opt for Palestinian citizenship. In this case, however, their
status would be like Americans residing in France. They could vote in
Palestinian elections and be elected to office (after all, it's only a
5 minute bus ride to Ramallah from Jerusalem) but apart from their
autonomous school system they wouldn't have the level of autonomy as
do residents in AREA B.

6. His Majesty King Hussein of Jordan and King Hassan of Morocco would
be on an executive committee of the Haram el Sharif (excuse my spelling),
the independent Palestinian state (like the Vatican) in the heart of
Jerusalem (Temple Mount).

--- END ---



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Oct 23 09:30:09 PDT 1996
Article: 81610 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 07:33:53 GMT
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iskandar@ee.tamu.edu (Alexandre Khalil) wrote:

>In article <54bt73$363@zap.io.org>, ken  wrote:
>>To all readers of tpm and sci newsgroups,
>
>>I have been asked to forward any threatening posts (or veiled threats) of
>>reader Brendan Mckay to his employer, the Australian National University.
>
>Ken Sperry
>
>  There are two problems with your attempts at smearing Brendan McKay.
>
>a) his posts are publically available and they contain nothing of what 
>you wish they did contain.
>
>b) your posts are publically available and they contain an interesting
>proportion of inanities, lies and other hate-packed deliriums.
>
>  You may forward this to the good folks at ANU.

Actually, since Ken Sperry has chosen to attack Brendan
McKay this way, by radically escalating a political
disagreement and debate into a nasty assault on McKay's
livelihood and freedom of speech, perhaps we should
consider carefully what important people in Sperry's
life might take an interest in reading his collected
works from the Usenet.

It would also be interesting to investigate the matter
of what other occasions in the past Ken Sperry has used
this "debating tactic" to attempt to smear his
"enemies." I doubt that this is the first episode of
this kind of behavior. Sperry's crazy hate mail to ANU
is definitely one for the record books. Sperry merits
some serious looking into.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Oct 24 09:56:57 PDT 1996
Article: 491461 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 05:04:21 GMT
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PatParson  wrote:

>  On that we can agree. The American Marxists who praised
>Stalin are quite as guilty as the American conservatives
>who praised Hitler.  It is a fact that Stalin murdered even
>more people than Hitler.  Stalin was somewhat less inclined
>to murder children, not because he had any scruples, but 
>because he had the intelligence to realize that they could
>be molded into  passive servants.

Actually, are there any hard numbers available on the
number of children murdered by the militant right and
left respectively? The Soviet Union's deliberate
starvation of millions of kulaks in the late thirties
didn't spare children. Nor did the murderous policies
of the Marxist regimes in China and Cambodia. Some
reports have put the number of civilian victims of
Chinese leftists at 80 million, many of whom were
children.

What militant rightists and leftists share is a
messianic psychology which leads them to believe that
history has deterministically commanded them to use the
power of the state to shove their simple-minded
ideologies down the throats and up the asses of the
human race. Anyone who gets in the way is simply
eliminated, in the name of saving or redeeming the
world (or the nation).

Leftists share a larger blame than rightists for the
mass slaughter which has defaced the 20th century, not
simply because they murdered many more innocent
victims, but because with the Bolshevik revolution they
set the entire hideous dialectic into motion. Without
the Bolsheviks, there would not have been a successful
Nazi takeover of Germany.

There is third way between the militant left and
militant right: a moderate libertarianism which is
deeply suspicious of all governments. Thomas Jefferson
and his fellow geniuses defined the third way
eloquently in the founding documents of the United
States.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Oct 24 12:02:07 PDT 1996
Article: 330917 of talk.politics.guns
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.politics.clinton,alt.fan.dan-quayle,alt.fan.ronald-reagan,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.correct,alt.flame.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.poli
Subject: Re: How Vince Foster was assassinated (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers: why no mess?)
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:49:39 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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mross@goldengate.net (Michael King Ross) wrote:

>>I've tried the experiment. It's impossible to miss car
>>keys when searching pockets.
>
>Impossible?  I am here to tell you from personal experience that that
>is not true.  Especially if the key is in a small pocket like a vest
>pocket or that little one on the Levi's jeans.

Michael: talk to me. Demonstrate to me that you are a
real person with a capacity to think.

The Park Police overlooked not ONE key, as you are
trying to suggest, at variance with the facts, but more
than SIX keys, and probably at least EIGHT or more
keys.

Vince Foster possessed two sets of keys, on two key
rings: a set of White House keys (with four keys and a
plastic tab) and a set of personal keys (with his car
keys, house keys, and other uninventoried keys).

Do you really expect us to believe that the Park Police
failed to notice the two key rings with all these keys
in Foster's pocket?

If your father was found in this condition, and was
alleged to have committed suicide, would you be the
least bit curious if the investigators at the scene
failed to find the keys that were required to drive him
to the site of the supposed suicide? Do you possess no
bullshit detector at all?

Set aside the silly Republican/Democratic squabbling,
and think about it....



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 09:55:18 PDT 1996
Article: 103049 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,soc.culture.jewish,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 20:38:43 GMT
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bashford@psnw.com (Crash) wrote:

>Yep.  In fact Hitler hated socialists, and Commies.  He was
>working for the Right hunting them down when he discovered
>the right wing Party he later named the Nazis as a ruse.  

Various strains of religious fundamentalism often hate
one another and murder one another. They still share
the same basic psychological characteristics and
personality traits.

Religious and secular fundamentalists of all types tend
to be very much alike when you look under the surface.

The most basic trait of all fundamentalists is the
infantile need to substitute an absolutist ideology
and doctrine for the rigors of dealing with the
complexity of the world in a truthful way.
Fundamentalists are ranters who are afraid to stand on
their own two feet as thinking individuals. They need
to be embraced in the womb of a mass movement with
rigidly defined enemies and easy answers for
everything.

It's no wonder that Hitler and Stalin entered into an
alliance with so much ease.

Messianists and fundamentalists always project their
shadow selves on the messianic and fundamentalist
other. When they confront the enemy they unwittingly
confront themselves.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 10:29:09 PDT 1996
Article: 491918 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:22:06 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>> According to R. J. Rummel in "Death by Government,"
>> Marxist regimes have murdered more than 100 million
>> innocent civilians in this century--the equivalent of
>> of 100 Holocausts.
>
>Not much of a citation there. Considering how few truly "Marxist" 
>regimes have actually existed I find this tought to believe.  

Here is the full citation. Please try to argue the facts.

The following lists some key statistics concerning genocide,
democide and political mass murder in the twentieth century,
according to R. J. Rummel in "Death by Government"
(Transaction Publishers, 1994).

"Victims" refers to the murder of civilians--men, women and
children. All numbers are rounded off to the nearest
million. I am using the Holocaust as a benchmark to organize
these numbers, since everyone is familiar with the horrors
and dimensions of that particular act of political
criminality.

Victims of totalitarian regimes (20th century): 170 million
Victims of Marxist regimes (20th century): 100 million
Victims of Soviet Communism (1917-1987): 62 million
Victims of Stalin (1929-53): 43 million
Victims of Mao Tse-Tung (1923-1976): 38 million
Victims of Adolf Hitler (1933-45): 21 million
Slavic victims of Hitler: 11 million
Non-Jewish Victims of Hitler: 16 million
Ukrainian victims of Stalin (1932-33 famine): 5 million
Jewish victims of Hitler (1942-45 Holocaust): 5 million
Victims of Cambodian Khmer Rouge (1975-79): 2 million

Some apparent conclusions:

1. Totalitarian governments in the twentieth century overall
have committed the equivalent of 34 Holocausts.

2. The Soviet Union murdered almost three times as many
civilians as did the Nazi regime.

3. Stalin murdered more than twice as many civilians as did
Hitler.

4. Stalin murdered almost nine times as many civilians
overall as Hitler murdered Jews.

5. Mao Tse-Tung murdered almost twice as many civilians as
did Hitler.

6. Mao Tse-Tung murdered almost eight times as many
civilians as Hitler murdered Jews.

7. Hitler murdered more than twice as many Slavs as Jews.

8. Hitler murdered more than three times as many non-Jews as
Jews.

9. Communists murdered as many Ukrainians in 1932-1935 as
Nazis murdered Jews in 1942-1945.

10. Marxists deliberately and systematically murdered more
than twenty times more ideological enemies in the twentieth
century than Nazis murdered Jews.

11. The Marxist Holocaust is by far the single greatest
political crime of the twentieth century and of all world
history.

12. Mass murder by radical left regimes in the twentieth
century has not received nearly as much publicity as mass
murder by radical right regimes.

>> The self-righteousness of the militant left is matched
>> only by its bloodthirstiness and hostility to freedom
>> and human rights.
>
>
>> Even after the extent of Stalin's atrocities were
>> well-known in the West--the Soviet Union murdered more
>> than 20 million innocent civilians in the thirties
>> alone--important sectors of the left in Western Europe
>> and the U.S. continued to act as apologists for various
>> Marxist ideologies. The New York Times played a major
>> role in covering up Stalin's crimes in the thirties,
>> which arguably exceeded in horror the crimes of Hitler
>> that were to follow.
>> 
>> None of this excuses the political crimes of the right
>> of course. 
>
>But you seem to think it means they weren't as "bad" somehow.

What I said is that the militant left has murdered many more
innocent civilians in the 20th century than the radical
right. I have also remarked that the radical left started
this bloody dialectic at the beginning of the century with
the Bolshevik Revolution. Karl Marx spawned a gang of
ideological fanatics and murderers whose crimes have
exceeded even those of the Nazis. Important sectors of the
mainstream left in the Western world have served as
apologists for those crimes even into the nineties.

I strongly recommend that you read Paul Johnson's "Modern
Times," if you want to understand better the many
resemblances, particularly psychological resemblances,
between radical leftists and rightists. They are two peas in
a pod. Mussolini is the classic example: he was deeply
grounded in Marxism, socialism and leftism.

What militant leftists and rightists share is an addiction
to simple-minded ideologies to prop up their weak
personalities--they are essentially religious
fundamentalists--and a lack of regard for the freedom of
anyone but themselves. Repeatedly they have proved
themselves to be monsters.


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 10:29:10 PDT 1996
Article: 491950 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
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wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

>According to R. J. Rummel in "Death by Government,"
>Marxist regimes have murdered more than 100 million
>innocent civilians in this century--the equivalent of
>of 100 Holocausts.

I meant to say 20 Holocausts above, not 100 Holocausts.
That was a typo. Rummel, in line with a number of other
contemporary historians, including Istvan Deak, places
the number of Jewish victims of Hitler at just over 5
million.


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 10:29:11 PDT 1996
Article: 492233 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 03:29:20 GMT
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bds@ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK ) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:

>: According to R. J. Rummel in "Death by Government,"
>: Marxist regimes have murdered more than 100 million
>: innocent civilians in this century--the equivalent of
>: of 100 Holocausts.
>
>More like 9 holocausts, but that's a quibble.

Yes, that was a typo. If you divide 5 million into 100
million you get the equivalent of 20 holocausts. The
general public understands the magnitude of a
holocaust; 20 holocausts puts matters into a
comprehensible perspective.

The hate message in the rightist murder machines was
up-front and on the surface. The hate message on the
leftist side was much more cunning and insidious: its
vastly greater criminality was packaged in the
deceptive rhetoric of altruism, peace, humanity and
progressive values.

>The important thing to remember is that Hitler's execution regime was
>removed by outside force.  It was in place for less than 10 years
>(remember, it didn't start in 1933), and it failed to last into the time
>when the rest of the German population was planned to fall victim to the
>death machine (see Hannah Arendt, _Totalitarianism_ for more on that).
>
>By contrast, Stalin and Mao each ruled for about 25 years.  Their death
>machines both more or less ran their course.

Marxism wasn't allowed to run its course; if it had, it
would have murdered at least another 100 million
innocent civilians or more, utterly destroyed the world
economy, and annihilated basic human rights everywhere.

Don't forget that the Western world expended decades of
effort and billions of dollars in preventing Marxism
>from  running its course. And many leftists derided this
heroic effort as an evil project of McCarthyites and
"mindless" anti-Communists.

>I agree with your main point, which is why you should not be trying to
>judge one any differently from the other.  They were equally horrible.

The crimes of the militant left and right in this
century were "equally horrible" only if you apply a
prejudicial standard of valuation on human life.
Leftists murdered many more human beings than
rightists, and inflicted much greater damage on the
societies on which they attempted to inflict their
messianic, utopian and hare-brained schemes.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 10:29:12 PDT 1996
Article: 492234 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.atheism,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 03:31:46 GMT
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bds@ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK ) wrote:

>Fair enough... but you need to realise that large private corporations
>are not operationally distinct from Governments in the sense that they
>can enslave people and ruin the country.
>
>Let's keep them _all_ accountable.  This appears to be something the
>Greens realise and the Libertarians don't.

I agree: large private corporations, and especially
large private multinational corporations, are
enormously powerful and need to be held accountable to
the highest standards.

Libertarian dogmatists who would allow these entities
essentially to run amok are not being very realistic.


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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 04:35:02 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:

>> reports have put the number of civilian victims of
>> Chinese leftists at 80 million, many of whom were
>> children.
>
>Which reports? Every time I hear these numbers they're bigger. But never 
>a reference.  

Here's the reference:



.newspaper article
author=Daniel Southerland
title=Study of famine in China reveals cannibalism cases
newspaper=The Boston Sunday Globe
date=July 17, 1994
pages=20
original.newspaper=The Washington Post

body=

BEIJING -- The time was more than three decades ago; the place, a
county in east-central China. A ferocious, abiding hunger had
settled across much of the land, and top official Zhao Yushu
issued this ruling: Children abandoned in roads and fields by
their starving parents must be left to die.

People were so desperate in one Fengyang County commune during
the monstrous famine, which was caused by Mao Zedong's 1958-60
Great Leap Forward, that on 63 occasions they ate others who had
died--or resorted to killing, carving up and eating their own
children.

"In Damiao commune, Chen Zhangying and her husband Zhao Xizhen
killed and boiled their 8-year-old son Xiao Qing and ate him,"
said a startling report that has recently become available in the
West. "In Wudian commune, Wang Lanying not only picked up dead
people to eat, but also sold two jin [2.2 pounds] from their
bodies as pork."

The 581-page report detailing how the famine affected Fengyang in
Anhui Province, prepared in 1989 by the official Chinese Academy
of Social Sciences for internal use by top Chinese officials, is
just one example of material that has recently emerged about the
staggering human toll exacted by Mao's belief in "permanent
revolution."

This and other new evidence shows that the number of people who
died in more than a dozen repressive, often violent political
campaigns between 1950 and 1976--especially the Great Leap
Forward and the 1966-76 Cultural Revolution--is millions higher
than previously thought. According to some high estimates, Mao's
repression, radicalism and neglect may have been responsible for
up to 80 million deaths.

The material--unearthed by Chinese and Western scholars--also
shows that areas of China previously believed to have escaped the
chaos of these campaigns were not immune from the tumult
masterminded by Mao, who died in 1976 but is still revered or at
least admired by many Chinese.





From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 10:29:13 PDT 1996
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
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"Sean Gallagher"  wrote:

>Just out of curiosity, Wayne, where do the cited statistics come from,
>originally?

Consult R. J. Rummel's "Death by Government"
(Transaction, 1994). Rummel is probably the world's
foremost expert on this grisly subject--the statistics
of democide.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 14:59:33 PDT 1996
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
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Del  wrote:

>> 11. The Marxist Holocaust is by far the single greatest
>> political crime of the twentieth century and of all world
>> history.
>
>Tripe.  Your attempt at compiling any death occurring in any country 
>you have unilaterally labeled "Marxist" and then tying them together 
>in a neat package, implying they were all of a type you prefer to 
>label "Marxist;" and then attributing the cause of all of them to a 
>monolithic and fabricated thing you call the "Marxist Holocaust" is 
>silly 

The 100 million plus murders committed by Marxist
regimes that I cited were committed by regimes that
defined themselves as Marxist. I am not "unilaterally"
labeling the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia and other
nations as Marxist. These political enterprises defined
themselves as Marxist, and drew their inspiration
explicitly from Karl Marx. The writings of Marx
constituted their Bible and sacred writ.

You offered nothing in the way of facts to rebut R. J.
Rummel's numbers. Most of your post is a confused
emotional jumble that doesn't merit a reply. One
suspects that you yourself are a militant leftist who
goes nuclear whenever your sacred cows are turned into
hamburger.

The truth stands: militant leftists in the 20th century
have murdered many more innocent civilians in the name
of altruism and progressive values than militant
rightists. The human race should be especially beware
of this particular deadly virus. The most power-hungry
monsters in this century had the slickest altruistic
rap.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 15:07:24 PDT 1996
Article: 81668 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 18:58:25 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Dmitri Krylov  wrote:

[To Brendan McKay:]

>You see, when i meet a well-educated anti-semite, i can
>learn some facts from him, but all this games with 
>false objectivity is not my hobby.

It's really a shame that you and many others don't
realize how much damage has been done to Israel by this
kind of intemperate rhetoric. "Anti-Semite" is an
intensely loaded term, closely associated in
connotations with "Nazi." One needs to exercise the
utmost care in using the term.

Perhaps Brendan McKay has a strong disagreement with
many of the popular and tendentious versions of the
founding of Israel that have been foisted on the public
in the West. Perhaps they insult his intelligence.
Perhaps it is not a wise thing to do to insult the
intelligence of someone with as many brain cells as
McKay.

If you want to smear McKay with the "anti-Semite"
label, others can return the favor and smear you as a
"Zionist fanatic," "Zionist racist," "Zionist zealot,"
"Kahanist," or whatever is the inflammatory epithet of
the day.

In this battle of inflammatory language, surely Israel
will come out the loser in the long run--don't you
realize this? Do you really believe that supporters of
Israel can get in a shit-slinging contest with the rest
of the world and come out the winner? It won't happen.
Down that path lies ruin for Israel.

The intemperate rhetoric between Israelis, without
taking into the account the sensibilities of the rest
of the world, could be enough to bring down the state
of Israel.

Verbal violence is a weapon that usually blows up in
the hands of those who try to exploit it.

If McKay has made any factual errors in his posts,
please try to point them out in a civil manner. That
would impress me much more than you calling McKay an
"anti-Semite." So far McKay has won 99% of the
exchanges I've observed. He thinks and researches
before he talks. Most of his detractors are wildly
flailing their arms and destroying whatever credibility
they might have once enjoyed.

Confront McKay's facts, and please leave the personal
characterizations out of the debate.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 15:07:25 PDT 1996
Article: 81671 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 22:18:00 GMT
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dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) wrote:

>BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

This is up to your usual standards of eloquence and
persuasiveness. No doubt if you were the Israeli PM,
all of Israel's problems would be solved.
--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 15:07:26 PDT 1996
Article: 81675 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: United States of Palestine
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 02:46:53 GMT
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Dmitri Krylov  wrote:

>Hmm, just one question to Josh -- or to Wayne?
>OK, to both.
>
>Suppose everything is going as proposed.
>A year after Israel gets that she can't
>exist in such way ( for example, there are
>strong Katyushas attacks from the area A and
>Arafat doing nothing -- unable, or doesn't want,
>anyhow, but it's just one example). 
>What Israel can do then?
>To invade back means yet one ugly war
>against armed "police" and the initial state again
>with the only difference which is this additional
>1 million. Any other options to garantee peace?

That would be the most important question to ask,
Dmitri. If we got some very bright people from Israel,
Western Europe, the U.S. and the Arab world to sit down
and think about it, I'm sure they could figure out a
solution. One possibility might be some kind of
international peacekeeping force to keep watch over
sensitive territories until the stability of the peace
arrangement had been proven.

Israel would be out of its mind to give up any
territory without absolute guarantees of safety from
the Palestinians, the Arab world and the world
community in general. Palestinians especially need to
be creative and energetic in putting Israel's
legitimate fears about security to rest.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 15:26:41 PDT 1996
Article: 331716 of talk.politics.guns
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
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Subject: Re: How Vince Foster was assassinated (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers: why no mess?)
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Fred G. Athearn  wrote:

>>>>>> "Wayne" == Wayne McGuire  writes:
>
>    Wayne> The Park Police overlooked not ONE key, as you are
>    Wayne> trying to suggest, at variance with the facts, but
>    Wayne> more than SIX keys, and probably at least EIGHT or
>    Wayne> more keys.
>
>    Wayne> Set aside the silly Republican/Democratic squabbling,
>    Wayne> and think about it....
>
>I agree we should give those police some more training or not let
>them handle anything that might be a significant investigation.

You've rather missed the point. NO ONE could miss two
key rings with eight keys when searching a pocket. NO
ONE. Special training has nothing to do with it.

Isn't that a fact, Fred? You don't need a doctorate in
police science to be able to search a pocket.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Oct 25 18:51:26 PDT 1996
Article: 86081 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.france
Subject: Re: My personal responce to Mr.Chirac idiocy
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 20:26:11 GMT
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khaskin@sfu.ca (Grigori Khaskin) wrote:

>Mr. Chirac going in circles in the ME telling each and every how much he 
>love arabs, how big friend of them he is, how bad Israel is, how poor and
>distressed Saddam became without spare parts for his helicopters and
>equipment for producing chemical weapons, and therefore imbargo should be
>dropped, and so on , and so else.
>
>I am thick and tired of this Pettin-like hypocrisy with anti-US agenda 
>and - despite it is no surprise - built in antisemitism.
>
>I decided to respond to Mr. Chirac escapades in my own way:
>
>
>I AM QUITTING WITH FRENCH WINES!!! With their brendy and Cognac as well!!!
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Many Israelis and Israeli supporters are in severe need
of a reality check.

The entire world, with the exception of the current
Israeli government, substantially agrees with France's
take on the Israeli/Palestinian situation. That
includes the U.S., whose President, according to the
latest Forward, is deeply disgusted with and angry at
Benjamin Netanyahu.

Perhaps Israel could stage an economic boycott against
the entire world, and the entire world could retaliate
with an economic boycott against Israel.

Don't you see where this is going? Israel is holding no
cards in this poker game, unless you call the threat of
committing an act of some kind of unimaginable
terrorism a card.

Without the support of the Western world, Israel is
finished as a state. It cannot possibly survive. Is
Benjamin Netanyahu stupid enough to ignore this basic
fact of life? Quite probably. He has already gone a
long way towards burning all the bridges between
America and Israel.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 00:16:33 PDT 1996
Article: 492982 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 05:01:44 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>> Marxism wasn't allowed to run its course; if it had, it
>> would have murdered at least another 100 million
>> innocent civilians or more, utterly destroyed the world
>> economy, and annihilated basic human rights everywhere.
>
>As long you treat speculation as fact, let's point out that
> if Nazism had it's way there would have only been three 
>classes of people on planet earth: Aryans, slaves, and corpses. 

And if Marxism had been allowed to run its course,
there would have been only three classes of people on
planet earth: the dictatorship of the Marxist
intelligentsia, slaves and corpses.

So what?

This isn't an argument that the militant left in the
20th century didn't murder many more people than the
militant right.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 10:00:50 PDT 1996
Article: 86238 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.france
Subject: Re: My personal responce to Mr.Chirac idiocy
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 23:34:39 GMT
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khaskin@sfu.ca (Grigori Khaskin) wrote:

>: The entire world, with the exception of the current
>: Israeli government, substantially agrees with France's
>: take on the Israeli/Palestinian situation. That
>: includes the U.S., whose President, according to the
>: latest Forward, is deeply disgusted with and angry at
>: Benjamin Netanyahu.
>
>The entire world? Kidding.

I am not kidding.

Would you please mention which government in the world
supports the policies of Netanyahu? The government of
Israel barely supports Netanyahu. There have even been
rumors in the world media that Israel may be on the
verge of  a coup.

See this week's Forward (front page) for the latest
inside info on the Clinton administration's attitude
towards Netanyahu. Netanyahu is turning off everyone,
except Christian and Jewish fundamentalists.

>: Perhaps Israel could stage an economic boycott against
>: the entire world, and the entire world could retaliate
>: with an economic boycott against Israel.
>
>Have you read what I wrote?
>
>Definitely you need an urgent shot of a cogniac.
>It is MY own BOYCOTT. And I am asking all sane people to join ME.
>Israel and her government - which BTW is not the worst one - have nothing
>to do with it.

And you want to punish the French because you are angry
about their treatment of Israel--is that correct?

Do you realize how ridiculous this looks, given
Israel's present political situation? In a few months,
Benjamin Netanyahu has managed to fritter away all the
valuable political capital that Yitzhak Rabin and
Shimon Peres had carefully built up over years. Western
political elites consider Netanyahu to be a jackass.

You can try to punish France all you want, but your
real problem, if your concern is with the well-being of
Israel, is Netanyahu. He could well destroy the state
of Israel during his term. Chirac and France are not
the problem. Chirac has said nothing which isn't on the
mind of every other nation in the world.

Supporters of Israel at this juncture cannot afford to
get in a pissing contest with any Western nation.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 10:05:55 PDT 1996
Article: 493046 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 20:13:59 GMT
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Mitchell Coffey  wrote:
>
>Del,
>
>Great analysis.

A spew does not constitute an analysis.

>McGuire also left out the millions of civilians killed in east asia by
>the Japanese in the '30s and '40s.  The figure "20 million" comes to
>mind, but I can't cite a source from memory.

By all means, add up all the murders committed by
militant rightists in the 20th century, and provide the
source for your data.

>I disturbed by the point of this excersize.

I imagine it is quite disturbing for those with an
emotional stake in the politics of the militant left to
be confronted with the evidence of how much murder and
destruction they have wrought in this century.

>Most of all, I'm disturbed by the use of (Jewish) holocaust-units by
>McGuire for his accounting.  Exactly what does he mean?

I carefully explained the use of that benchmark: the
general public understands well the dimensions of the
Holocaust. Militant leftists in this century have
committed the equivalent of twenty Holocausts, and
would have committed many more if they hadn't been
confronted with steel.

Stalin committed the equivalent of at least four
Holocausts in the thirties before the better known
Holocaust occurred in the forties. Communists invented
the concentration camp.

Now, if you'd like to pursue the racist line of
argument that some lives are not worth as much as
others, be my guest. I've seen that argument unfold a
number of times, and know where it goes.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 11:35:08 PDT 1996
Article: 86246 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.france
Subject: Re: My personal responce to Mr.Chirac idiocy
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 01:05:52 GMT
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ggrt23986@att.worldnet.com wrote:

>Let's face it, Israel is for all practical purposes the USA's
>51st state(Yeah they beat PR to it). However, this state
>is being used for USA's vital national interests for the time 
>being. As soon as that goal is achieved Israel will be dumped 
>like a used Tampon.

This is a crude way to put things, to say the least,
but there is a kernel of truth in it. Under the right
circumstances, American and Western support for Israel
could disappear so fast that Israelis would think they
had stepped into an elevator shaft.

Benjamin Netanyahu seems to be eager to drive Israel
towards the shaft. Bright man. It's amazing what a bit
of tribal messianism can do to one's sanity.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 11:35:09 PDT 1996
Article: 86250 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.african,alt.religion.islam,soc.culture.asian.american
Subject: Re: 1. "A DEADLY DECEPTION: Israel Guilty of Oppressing Arabs"
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 02:26:25 GMT
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Dmitri Krylov  wrote:

>I also see i hurried too much with my apology for some
>hurting expressions. I ask you to disregard it.
>Yet one thing -- i've offended you in face to face
>dialog while you just give me a name behind my back.
>I make my apology void and null.

See--this is what happens when one starts throwing
around inflammatory language like "anti-Semitic"
without a careful regard for the truth. Social
relations go all to hell; next thing you know, you're
at the world's throat, and the world is at your throat.
The usual apocalyptic algorithm.

Of course, now even Rabin and Peres are anti-Semites,
traitors to the Jews, Jew-haters, Nazis even. No
objective student of history could give the current
incarnation of Israel a better a chance of surviving
than the incarnation that collapsed in flames with the
fall of the Second Temple. The same-old same-old keeps
coming up again and again over the centuries,
especially the self-destructive intemperance and
fanaticism which eats one alive and poisons every
relationship.

Once you used the "A" word, you made friendship and
rational discussion nearly impossible to achieve.
I do hope Brendan will take careful note of your
apology, however, and perhaps offer one of his own.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 11:44:51 PDT 1996
Article: 493181 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 02:43:32 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>All I've seen wrt the commie body count numbers like this 
>are unsubstantiated claims, and people repeating those claims. 

I cited a specific source: R. J. Rummel's "Death by
Government" (Transaction, 1994). Rummel is a recognized
authority in the field. You don't know enough about the
subject to know who Rummel is or to rebut him. In fact,
it's difficult to understand how you got involved in
this subject at all, since you seem to know so little
about it and don't know how to deal with sources.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 12:45:50 PDT 1996
Article: 81703 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 23:35:28 GMT
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Dmitri Krylov  wrote:

>Brendan, i feel myself rather bad after this biting.
>Independently of what i think it was immoral to answer
>in such a way to your calm and friendly reply.
>I'm ashamed of this.I apologize.

Geez--how can one not conceive an affection for this
fellow, Dmitri? He's a man.


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 12:45:51 PDT 1996
Article: 81704 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: United States of Palestine
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 23:52:22 GMT
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Dmitri Krylov  wrote:

>Sorry Wayne, it's not an answer. It's just some common
>words about common principles. However i got a private
>msg from Josh and i agree that 2 weeks-old model can't
>be complete. I'm ready to wait ;)
>But anyhow -- what i want to hear as an answer
>(when Josh invent it) is something like:
>In a critical situation Israel can do this and that.
>As to international peace keeping forces -- 
>i guess after 1967 nobody has any 
>illusions about their use.

Dmitri,

I sympathize with your skepticism. I am not a military
expert, and cannot offer a detailed plan by which
Israel can guarantee its security under Josh's plan.

My gut instinct is that experts could work out a secure
arrangement. Where there's a will, there's a way.

As far as what Israel could do if the Palestinians
broke the agreement: in my mind, *ANYTHING* it needed
to do to secure its borders and existence. I am certain
that would be the general view in the world: once
Israel extended itself in an honest effort to provide
room for the expression of Palestinian nationalism, no
more could be expected of Israel. Any conceivable moral
obligations would have been fulfilled. From that point
on, the gloves would be off for Israel in any situation
in which the Palestinians failed to live up to their
agreements.

I, for one, would support massive American military
intervention in the region on the side of Israel if
such a situation arose.

On one point I am confident: if the tension between
Jews and Muslims in the Middle East continues to
escalate, and particularly the tension between Jewish
and Muslim fundamentalists, the entire region, and
quite possibly the entire world, is going to face a
great catastrophe involving weapons of mass
destruction. That would be the least secure scenario of
all, for Israel and for everyone else.

I worry very deeply about this scenario. It's why I
entered the Great Mideast Debates in the first place.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 12:45:52 PDT 1996
Article: 81707 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 01:02:41 GMT
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dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) wrote:

>First, to pay respect to the thread, I want to join Dr. Keren and others
>in stating that I find Brendan to be above reproach in his academic
>scholarship. I don't always agree with his conclusions and interpretations,
>but I read what he posts because I can learn something sometimes. 
>
>Ken Sperry's attempt to intimidate Brendan is reprehensible and I condemn it.
>
>Wayne, on the other hand, is exactly the opposite of Brendan. His academic
>scholarship is non-existant (if you don't count his scanner and ability to
>say "I agree with this").

Actually, my scholarship on Mideast and Jewish affairs
goes quite a bit deeper than Brendan's. I'll be happy
to post the entire bibliography.

Brendan is primarily interested in the factual details
regarding the creation of Israel. I am much more
interested in the ideological structures and forces
that have controlled messianic psychology and cultures
through the millennia and in the present world. The
details surrounding the founding of Israel are a small
footnote for me.

There are two approaches to history: one focuses on the
data, the other focuses on the programs or algorithms
that generate that data. I am most interested in the
programs and algorithms--the ideological
structures--that generate the data. Squabbles about the
details of the data I will leave to others. For Brendan
this activity seems to be a form of personal amusement,
like playing chess, and he does it extremely well. For
me, the conflicts in the Mideast possess a prophetic
urgency, because I understand only too well what
horrific outcomes have been generated by these
messianic and apocalyptic algorithms in the past.

My core thesis since the mid-eighties, supported by the
very best Israel and Jewish scholarship--none of which
you have read or mastered, Mr. Spiegel--is that the
rise of Jewish fundamentalism represents a grave threat
to the state of Israel and to the interests of the
world Jewish community. Nearly every prediction I have
made about this phenomenon has come to pass. Israel now
stands on the brink of total ruin if the religious
fundamentalist and secular messianic political forces
which control Benjamin Netanyahu continue to drive
Israel towards a massive collision with Western Europe
and the United States.

This analysis, of course, intensely inflames Jewish
fundamentalists like yourself, and provides you with
the opportunity to put your fanatical hatred on full
display for the world on the Usenet. I hope that you
and others like you continue to reveal your true
character for anyone with access to the Internet.

The more than a dozen Israelis and Diaspora Zionists
who praised the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin by Yigal
Amir on the Internet did the world a very great
service. We now know where many religious Zionists are
coming from and what they are capable of supporting and
doing.

You have never once been able to engage the scholarship
I have cited in a rational and informed manner. You are
a religious zealot and a propagandist, like Kenley
Sperry, not a scholar, and zealots like yourself are
doing an excellent job of pushing the Zionist
experiment towards a catastrophe.

The more you spew your militant religious
fundamentalism, the more you threaten Israel's
well-being.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 12:45:53 PDT 1996
Article: 81717 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 23:41:02 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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bdm@cs.anu.edu.au (Brendan McKay) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>
> > Actually, since Ken Sperry has chosen to attack Brendan
> > McKay this way, by radically escalating a political
> > disagreement and debate into a nasty assault on McKay's
> > livelihood and freedom of speech, perhaps we should
> > consider carefully what important people in Sperry's
> > life might take an interest in reading his collected
> > works from the Usenet.
>
>I have no interest in that approach.

I admire your generosity, Brendan. But I think as a
general rule, anyone who crosses the line from
conducting a vigorous and even rancorous debate on the
Usenet to meddling maliciously in the private lives of
one's debating opponents has left him- or herself open
for retaliation in kind. Kenley Sperry is now fair
game. He brought this situation upon himself.

You may take his invasion of your personal life with
equanimity. Others won't.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 12:45:54 PDT 1996
Article: 81720 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 01:47:25 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) wrote:

>Simultaneously, Wayne was off on a smear campaign against the last
>Lubavitcher Rebbe and his followers....

I pointed out accurately that the doctrine on which the
Lubavitcher movement is based is full of hate-filled
and bigoted attitudes against non-Jews. I provided
scholarly sources to buttress my assertions. You
couldn't answer those assertions then and you can't
answer them now.

The fact that criticism of Lubavitcher meddling in
Israeli politics upsets you so much is solid proof of
where you are coming from and where your real loyalties
lie.

You, Mr. Spiegel, are a Jewish fundamentalist who is
unable to deal rationally with any criticism of the
role of Jewish fundamentalism in the making of Israeli
public and foreign policy. You are a political
messianist, that most dangerous of breeds.

Mixing politics and religion is a destructive and
deadly exercise. Both Judaism and Zionism will be
severely damaged by mixing them together and confusing
them. Using politics to justify religion and religion
to justify politics brings ruin upon both politics and
religion.

Any number of leading Israeli and Jewish scholars have
studied these issues in depth, and I will be happy to
point you to their works. I have cited them to you in
the past, when you gave ample evidence that you hadn't
read them. The issues that they address seem to go
completely over your head. You haven't studied general
history in sufficient depth to appreciate the concerns
that they are raising. You filter everything through
your simple-minded folk theology.

We see the current fruits of religious Zionism:
relations between Israel and the West are now as
strained as they have ever been in the history of
Israel. Israeli-Western relations could completely
snap, if Benjamin Netanyahu continues to dance to the
tune of Jewish fundamentalists like the Lubavitchers.

If mainstream Israelis had any sense, they would
utterly shun these fanatical elements in their midst
before they bring down the Jewish state. They are a
greater menace to Jewish interests than Muslim
fundamentalists. These were the zealots who incited
Yigal Amir to murder the Prime Minister of Israel, and
who have now targeted other Israeli leaders, including
the head of the Israeli Supreme Court, for
assassination.

Your every word, Mr. Spiegel, has placed you directly
in their camp. You are going to have to live with your
thoughtless words and your bad politics.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 12:45:54 PDT 1996
Article: 81721 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: IMPORTANT NOTICE REGARDING BRENDAN MCKAY
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 02:12:03 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) wrote:

>Last thing. Wayne edited out (above my laughter) his reference to himself
>as deserving of a Righteous Gentile medal. It is clear that Wayne 
>doesn't know what this title really means.

Lord, are you ever irony-impaired. I've never met a
religious fundamentalist who wasn't. You are nothing if
not predictable, Mr. Spiegel.

For the irony-impaired: you needn't worry about
presenting me with a Righteous Gentile medal.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 13:33:59 PDT 1996
Article: 103736 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Public Reopens Foster Case, Challenges Suicide Believers (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 16:25:15 GMT
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jdolan@math.ucr.edu (james dolan) wrote:

>no doubt there is some truth (maybe a lot, maybe just a little) in the
>idea that republicans are not pressing too hard on some of the
>"well-known clinton-related scandals" because of their own
>vulnerability to scandal charges, but there's another and probably
>even more important reason why they're not pressing too hard- a reason
>that you don't mention and quite possibly don't even see: namely, that
>the clinton-scandal-mongering industry has become so associated with
>paranoid lunacy that it's hard to talk seriously about accusations of
>unethical behavior by clinton without people assuming you're just
>another paranoid lunatic.

Mr. Dolan,

You further contribute to the impression that all the defenders
of the Fiske Report are incapable of conducting a rational
discussion, and are generally ignorant, dishonest and abusive.

Please lay out your arguments in support of the proposition
that the conclusions of the Fiske Report are compatible with
the facts presented in its body. You will find that I am 
quite rational. If you make a good case, I will change my mind.
So far the defenders of the Fiske Report, like Fred Athearn,
Michael King Ross, Swopa and others, have made fools of
themselves. They couldn't win a debate with a third-string
high school team. The reason for this is that the conclusions
of the Fiske Report are absurd on their face--they are
indefensible in any arena which requires logic and a
fidelity to common sense.

While you are at it, perhaps you could also explain why the
majority of experts who have examined Foster's alleged
suicide note have declared it to be a forgery. Perhaps you 
could also explain why the big media have been unable to
find experts to authenticate the note and are generally
frightened out of their wits to address the controversy in
an honest way.

Thanks.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 14:57:38 PDT 1996
Article: 493465 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:09:20 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>> A spew does not constitute an analysis.
>
>If anyone was spewing, scout, that anyone would be you. That's why your 
>claims were so easy to shoot down. If my refutation was as shaky as your 
>post was, you would have creamed it. But you were too badly whuped to 
>even try. Take heart. Knowing your limitations demonstrates some degree 
>of intelligence. 

What claims have you shot down? You haven't rebutted
Rummel, and you haven't rebutted the fact that militant
leftists have murdered many more innocent civilians in
this century than militant rightists.

>So now it's twenty  Holocausts huh? Why just yesterday you were saying 
>it was 100:

That was a typo. I explained the typo at length. I can
appreciate your need to argue with a typo, because you
can't argue with the facts.

>Then it's a good thing then your Nazis were stopped because they 
>averaged 1.75 million murders per year  v. the Soviet average of only 
>800,000 a year (using your "figures") 

Actually, you are dead wrong again. In the Ukrainian
famine, which occurred during a period of two years,
1932 through 1933, 5 million victims died. I will leave
it to you to calculate the murders per year during that
period.

Marxists in the Soviet Union committed the equivalent
of at least four Holocausts during the twenties and
thirties.

Leftists in the West, including The New York Times,
completely covered up these crimes. Reporting the truth
about what was going in the Soviet Union would been a
deadly blow to the left at the time. They lied through
their teeth to protect their ideological program.

One saw the same pattern among many leftists during the
seventies. Getting them to admit the crimes of the
Marxist regime in Cambodia was like pulling teeth.
Under the sheer weight of the evidence, most of them
finally conceded the truth, but it was a real struggle.

>> Stalin committed the equivalent of at least four
>> Holocausts in the thirties before the better known
>> Holocaust occurred in the forties.
>
>Four today, but how many tomorrow? Seven? A thousand? 

What kind of argument of this? You are incapable of
arguing facts. Even The New York Times now accepts a
figure of at least 20 million victims in the Soviet
Union during the thirties, based on the research of Roy
Medved.

>> Now, if you'd like to pursue the racist line of
>> argument that some lives are not worth as much as
>> others, be my guest. 
>
>I've seen that argument unfold a
>> number of times, and know where it goes.
>
>Obviously since it appears to be a favorite of yours. You clearly don't 
>see any reason to count the murders that do not support your 
>conscience-saving rationale and argument. You ignore them. They have no 
>value to you. Sure, just write them off. 

What murders have I ignored? Both the political left
and the political right murdered many millions of
innocent civilians in this century. The political left
happened to murder quite a few more than the political
right, but the main point is that messianic political
ideologues are all peas in a pod.

Utopians and messianists who want to use the power of
the state to control the lives of others tend to resort
to murder and other human rights abuses at the drop of
the hat.

Look at how quickly Richard Hanson descended to
threatening one of his political enemies with the FBI.
Hanson would have felt right at home in Marxist Russia
or Nazi Germany.

I have no desire to defend the political right, but
criticism of the political left obviously pushes your
hot buttons. Pointing out that leftists murdered 100
million innocent civilians in this century inspires no
disgust or moral outrage in you--only deep anger at the
bearer of the message. The behavior is typical among
militant leftists, and has been for many decades now.
Thanks for demonstrating the syndrome.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 14:57:40 PDT 1996
Article: 493476 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 18:34:55 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>Yes, then apply the McGuireian Bean Counting Theory of Evil and we will 
>know once and for all who's the most evil one of all.

Is that what you consider individual human beings to
be--beans? It wouldn't be surprising. The radical left
in this century as a rule has shown no regard for
individual human lives.

50 million beans, 100 million beans--it's all the same.
No difference.

Imagine a situation in which someone broke into your
house and murdered one of your family members.

Imagine another situation in which someone broke into
your house and murdered two of your family members.

For radical leftists, there's no difference--we're
dealing in beans.

For you, personally, you'd probably notice the
difference and make the appropriate ethical judgements.

For decent human beings, and for the American judicial
system, there is an immense difference between
murdering one person and murdering two people. Every
human life is valuable. Murdering two human beings is a
much greater crime than murdering one human being.

Radical leftists never understand this point, since
their brains are swimming in grand Marxist
abstractions.

If the radical left murdered tens of millions more
innocent civilians in this century than the radical
right, then that is a distinction of immense
significance. Each one of those lives counts for a
great deal.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 14:57:41 PDT 1996
Article: 493493 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 16:44:31 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> Del  wrote:
>> 
>> >All I've seen wrt the commie body count numbers like this
>> >are unsubstantiated claims, and people repeating those claims.
>> 
>> I cited a specific source: R. J. Rummel's "Death by
>> Government" (Transaction, 1994). Rummel is a recognized
>> authority in the field.
>
>Ooooooo! No shit? A recognized authority on Government murder? The 
>problem with argumentum ad verecundiam is, what happens if I cite an 
>"authority" offering a different figure? Where do you go from there? 

Fine, cite your opposing authorities, and clearly define your
disagreements, if any, with R. J. Rummel.

However, a post that begins with "Ooooooo! No Shit?" doesn't
bode well for you mental maturity and scholarly competence.
I think you've made it abundantly clear that you have no idea
of what you are talking about.

>I already showed that the numbers you offer as being his do not add up. 
>I gave you a chance to explain why not, or tell me what I was missing, 
>or whatever the hell the problem was. I asked:

I didn't list all the instances of government mass murder that
Rummel mentions in his book. The numbers were not intended
to "add up" in the way you expect. You are pursuing a fool's
exercise because your emotion on this topic far exceeds your
ability to think.

The basic fact remains: the political left in the 20th century has
murdered many more innocent civilians than the political right.
And this doesn't take into account all the abuses of human rights
committed by the political left, and the enormous damage that
leftists inflicted on cultures and economies throughout the world.
It will take decades for Russia to recover from the destruction
wrought by militant leftists.

>How did you arrive at the "Marxist regimes have murdered more than 100
>million innocent civilians in this century" statement, given the
>tallies you offer here? "

The numbers for Marxist regimes are obvious: look at the figures.

The 62 million victims in the Soviet Union and the 38 million
victims in China add up to 100 million. This tally doesn't include
other Marxist regimes (for instance, Cambodia), and probably
severely underestimates the Chinese total, according to other
sources. If the 80 million figure is correct for China, that would
boost the total of Marxist victims to over 150 million overall in
this century.

>> You don't know enough about the subject to know who Rummel is or to rebut him.
>
>I know enough arithmetic to see his figures do not compute.

I didn't present all his figures. Consult his book for the full
set of figures. Your computation is meaningless.

>  Frankly it is of little importance to me if communists killed more 
>people than the Nazis or vice versa.

Really? Why do you think that? It would appear that you do not
put very much value on individual human lives. Of course, that's
a typical attitude for militant leftists. Their deterministic
abstractions always take precedence over a concern for
individual rights.

>One must wonder why you don't just say the evil of nazis and commies was 
>roughly equivalent and leave it at that? What's the big deal? Why do you 
>wish to claim the Nazis were better than the commies?

But the Nazis didn't murder anywhere near as many human beings
as Marxists. For that matter, the criminal record of the entire radical
right in this century can't match that of the radical left.

Furthermore, the Nazis would never have come to power if the
radical left hadn't deliberately attempted to destabilize Europe
in the twenties and thirties. The radical left deserves a good deal
of blame for the condition of political hysteria and extremism which
bred the counter crusade from the right.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 14:57:42 PDT 1996
Article: 493520 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 17:56:05 GMT
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Del  wrote:

> Take Cambodia for example. Your author claims 2 million "murdered." The 
>New York Times  says the death toll amounted to "hundreds of thousands 
>and perhaps more than 1 million" (Philip Shenon 4/15/95). 
>
>Author Michael Vickery  ("Cambodia 1975-1982," Boston:  South End, 1984) 
>puts the number at 740,000. His figures were based on CIA data.
>
>A CIA demographic study gives figures of 50,000 to 100,000 for people 
>who "may have been executed..." 
>
>In the U.S. government journal, Problems of Communism (May-June1981), 
>Australian Indochina specialist Carlyle Thayer suggests a figure of 
>deaths from all causes at 500,000 of which 50,000 to 60,000 were 
>executions.

Very good--you finally provided some hard numbers.

It would be interesting to see Rummel, Shenon, Vickery
and Thayer debate their respective numbers on the
Internet. I might well revise my opinion on the
Cambodian numbers after observing the discussion.

It seems to me, however, that even if you take the low
end on the Cambodian slaughter, you are still going to
have trouble getting the total number of Marxist
victims in this century under 100 million, or anywhere
near the range of victims of the radical right.

The really scary thing about the Marxist Holocaust is
that it was all committed in the name of peace, love
and brotherhood--precisely the same rhetoric one hears
>from  contemporary liberals. And yet the hatred and
murderous violence of these humanity-loving world
saviors matched or exceeded that of the overt haters on
the right.

That is an historical lesson that no one should ever
forget. The worst haters and tyrants in this century
manipulated the rhetoric of altrusim, and managed to
fool a large percentage of the human race, including
many Western intellectuals.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Oct 26 16:36:39 PDT 1996
Article: 103821 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Public Reopens Foster Case, Challenges Suicide Believers (was Re: Challenge to Foster suicide believers)
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 02:40:23 GMT
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jmoore3@ix.netcom.com(John Moore ) wrote:

>In <327077a6.1403430@news.cybercom.net> wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne
>McGuire) writes: 

>>The question we would have then is, is this a
>>legitimate national security blackout or an
>>illegitimate national security blackout? Are real
>>national security interests being protected, or the
>>interests of a small group of top-level insiders who
>>broke the law for indefensible reasons?
>>
>
>We are at the brink of a stupendous cultural and institutional clash.
>The very notion of a valid "national security matter" requires the
>trust of Congress and the American people in their police and security
>agencies. Absent this trust such agencies may be required to fight for
>their very existence. The limits of such a battle are not clear.

You know, it's not out of the question that the present
national security state could collapse, in part because
of the immense mess in which the Foster scandal seems
to be embedded.

I think it's even possible that quite a few government
and political insiders would welcome the collapse and
the opportunity to rebuild with a fresh start. Every
now and then governments need to clear out all the dead
wood and rotting refuse. We may be getting very close
to that point in American history.

--
Wayne McGuire
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 27 12:18:00 PST 1996
Article: 493615 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
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Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
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PatParson  wrote:

>Are you suggesting that Hitler would not have killed more
>if he had the opportunity and the time?  If so, you have 
>a much kinder estimation of Hitler than most of us.  Your
>attitude was perhaps typical of the conservatives of the 
>1930s, but only the most extreme of them would noow agree
>with you.

Pat,

You appear to be having another one of your usual
logical breakdowns on the net.

Obviously Nazis would have killed many more people if
they hadn't been stopped. Marxists also would have
killed many more people if they hadn't been stopped.

So what is your point? You and "Del" seem to be
promoting the idiotic argument, in the defense of your
kneejerk leftism, that what the radical right MIGHT
have done is equivalent to what the radical left REALLY
DID--they you conveniently leave out of the equation
what the radical left itself MIGHT have done, which
would have easily matched and probably exceeded the
plans of the radical right.

I am seeing the same slovenly habits of mind in this
thread that I have been seeing in the bizarre messages
>from  those ineptly trying to defend the Fiske Report.

The bottom line is that apart from their mutual
murderous intentions for the future, radical leftists
overall murdered many more innocent civilians in this
century than radical rightists.

If Marxists had been given a free hand, they would have
exterminated every human being on the planet who dared
to opposed the dictatorship of the Marxist
intelligentsia. They had more than ample time to prove
what they were really about. They were cold-blooded and
fanatical murderers.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 27 13:44:49 PST 1996
Article: 81750 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,israel.lists.il-talk,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.african,soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.asian.american,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Brendan McKay and Dmitri Krylov
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 21:40:12 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Brendan McKay and Dmitri Krylov 
wrote:

>After private discussion, the undersigned have agreed to 
>     withdraw all charges and insults made against each other.
>
>     Brendan McKay  and  Dmitri Krylov.

Excellent. It would be a waste of two bright minds for
you to be in anything other than a sociable
relationship.

Now, if we can solve the most serious problems in the
Mideast so easily....


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 27 23:22:58 PST 1996
Article: 494240 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 22:32:32 GMT
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bds@ipp-garching.mpg.de (Bruce Scott TOK ) wrote:

>In rough terms, I lump the Jewish, Gypsy, and "nonconformist" victims
>into a rough total of 11 million.  But the sentiment is the same.

In America, the Holocaust is almost exclusively
presented and defined in terms of Jewish victimhood.
Gypsies and other classes of victims are almost never
mentioned. You didn't even mention Slavic victims of
Nazism, which, according to Rummel, numbered 11 million
by themselves.

I'm curious: why didn't you mention the Slavs? 11
million people is rather a large component of the
Holocaust in the fullest sense to overlook.

In the popular American mind, and in line with the
latest research, a Holocaust refers to around 5 million
victims.

>All you're saying is that the main representatives on the "leftist" side
>(don't forget Trotsky was a real leftist but one of the first prominent
>victims of Stalin's takeover) have simply been better at it.  The
>statistical sample is, however, rather small.

Trotsky, if he had won power, probably would have been
as big a monster as Stalin. Trotsky was as fanatical
and bloodthirsty as Stalin in the pursuit of Marxist
objectives. He was not sqeamish about exterminating the
enemies of the sacred doctrine.

What do you mean by a small statistical sample? The
mainstream left throughout the entire world served as
an apologist for Stalin during and after the period of
the worst crimes in the Soviet Union. Leftists used the
rhetoric of humanism and altruism to justify all Soviet
crimes.

>By 'running its course' I refer to the fact that the death machine had
>largely abated from its initial levels in both cases.  Both the economy
>and the ability to project power had stagnated as well.  So I seriously
>doubt your claims.  The Marxist states were out on their feet, waiting
>for a reason to collapse.  (I would not claim China today is very
>Marxist.  It bears little resemblance to the Maoist period, and a lot to
>previous dynasties.  Read up on the Tang period if you want to
>understand today's and tomorrow's China.)

If Western Europe and the U.S. had not attempted to
defeat Marxist schemes to conquer the world from the
forties on, is there any doubt in your mind that the
crimes that occurred in the Soviet Union and China
would have been replayed in what was once the
democratic world? The pattern has been well-estabished
throughout the world: Marxists seek world domination,
and they exterminate anyone who gets in their way.

If the U.S. and Western Europe hadn't stood firm
against the Soviet Union, you would now be living in a
Marxist police state in Germany, with your culture and
economy in ruins.

>You're sitting in the US with your own agenda.  I'm sitting in a country
>throughly trashed by Naziism, to the extent that it cannot reclaim its
>entire identity without being tarred with the neo-Nazi brush.  That is
>cultural destruction to a rather large degree, much more than Russia and
>China have suffered.  The latter two are able and allowed to rely on
>traditional culture to recover their senses.  Germans are only partially
>able to do this.  Recovery is quite a bit more than the acquisition or
>re-acquisition of material wealth.  There is still a serious emptiness
>here. 

I assume you are living in what once called West
Germany, correct? Do you seriously wish to argue that
West Germany is in worse shape economically and
culturally in 1996 than Russia? Have you read any of
the reports coming out of Russia concerning quality of
life? Please. Account yourself fortunate. By any
objective standard, Marxism damaged Russia much more
deeply than Nazism damaged Germany. Germany has
recovered its footing quite quickly. Russia is going to
be dazed and confused for decades to come.

>Note I am not saying this is due to imaginary foes of "political
>correctness" or "Zionism".  That is garbage.  What I mean is that the
>Nazis perverted this culture to such a horrible extent that much of it
>is permanently tainted by their appropriation and actions.

I understand what you are trying to say, but I think
you are underestimating just how much worse matters are
in Russia after decades of Marxist domination than in
contemporary Germany. Compare the quality of life in
West Germany with formerly Marxist-dominated East
Germany. Nothing in this century has come close to the
stupendous destructive power of Marxism.

Marxism is one of the most dangerous and deranged
quasi-religious cults ever to afflict the human race.
Ideological viruses with this much toxicity are truly
exceptional. The twentieth century wasted an enormous
amount of time and energy dealing with this virus.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 27 23:23:00 PST 1996
Article: 494243 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 22:49:51 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>> 2. The Soviet Union murdered almost three times as many
>> civilians as did the Nazi regime.
>
>"Another example of comparing apples and oranges. The Soviet union was
>in power 5.6 TIMES LONGER than Nazi Germany - which existed for only
>13 years. Is this why you didn't calculate the _average_ annual murder
>rate? It wouldn't have made Nazi Germany the obvious "winner" of the
>"Evil Prize" and therefore didn't fit your intended outcome?"

You are failing to respond to the facts I presented in
my recent posts.

Three points:

1. The Soviet Union exterminated 5 million Ukrainians
by starvation during a 2-year period from 1932-3.

2. Before the Nazi Holocaust began in 1941, the Soviet
Union had already committed the equivalent of four
Holocausts during the preceding decade.

3. You keep trying to compare real victims with
potential victims.

One understands your need to focus on the victims who
might have been on the radical right rather than the
victims who really were, and to ignore the victims who
might have been on the radical left.

Your problem is, when you tally up all the numbers on
both sides, the radical left wins the prize for
committing the greatest number of political murders by
many millions. Each one of these millions was not a
bean, in the typical ideological abstraction of the
radical left, but a flesh and blood human being. The
murder of each and every one of those individual human
beings was a great crime.

You seem to have trapped yourself in the unenviable
position of attempting to minimize the gravity of the
murder of over 100 million human beings. Your own
militant leftism has tripped you badly.

I have no desire to minimize or maximize the crimes of
either the militant left or militant right. In fact, it
has been the thesis of most of the intelligent people
in these newsgroups that there is not a dime's worth of
difference between the two strains of oppressive
statism. Marxists and Nazis share the same fundamental
psychology, and use the same brutal methods to acquire
power.

The main point that one wants to keep in mind is that
the radical left in this century murdered more than 100
million innocent civilians in the name of peace, love,
brotherhood, equality, social justice, security and
other progressive and humane values. Beware of
altruists seeking political and state power. Their
track record in this century is abysmal.



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 27 23:23:01 PST 1996
Article: 494245 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Re: Socialism - Nazism: Terms of "Debate"
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:00:23 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Del  wrote:

>> Very good--you finally provided some hard numbers.
>
>Especially since you have the burden of proof and have yet to substantiate 
>your own numbers.  When do you plan on doing this?  But I guess it is pretty 
>hard to maintain an even keel being a  right wing socialist / crypto-statist 
>in the rational world.

How in the world have you substantiated your own
numbers? You threw up a bunch of contradictory
statistics from numerous sources without making any
effort to evaluate their relative credibility.

I think by now we can cut through your emotional spew
to the main point, however: why is it that nearly all
leftists, not just militant leftists, become so
exceedingly angry, emotional and irrational when the
hard facts about political criminality by the radical
left in this century are pointed out?

Why are you so angry? Why are you so upset? You haven't
been able to rebut Rummel's data which points to a
number of 100 million innocent victims--at a
minimum--at the hands of Marxists in the 20th century.

Surely that's an accurate ballpark figure. Who but a
sympathizer with Marxism would become angry when these
numbers are pointed out? What is the difference between
you and any Nazi who becomes enraged when the facts
about Nazi crimes are mentioned?

In point of fact there is no difference between you and
the Nazi. Radical leftists, like yourself, and radical
rightists are nearly indistinguishable by any important
psychological measure. Politics for both sides is a
device to prop up their weak personalities and to
compensate for lack of self-esteem. They derive their
sense of importance by joining angry mobs.

What is your real name, btw, Del?



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Oct 27 23:23:03 PST 1996
Article: 494265 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.publius,talk.philosophy.misc,talk.origins,alt.atheism,alt.activism,alt.politics.usa.congress,soc.women,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.newt-gingrich
Subject: Del: The Ethics of a Militant Leftist
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 23:08:10 GMT
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Del  wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> Del  wrote:
>> 
>> >Yes, then apply the McGuireian Bean Counting Theory of Evil and we will
>> >know once and for all who's the most evil one of all.
>> 
>> Is that what you consider individual human beings to
>> be--beans? It wouldn't be surprising. 
>
>Gee, what an unexpected turn of events! Who would have ever guessed?  What 
>sagacious discourse! What brilliant rhetorical thrust! What a fucking 
>bonehead. No doubt this is what passes for wit in Waynes World 

You didn't address the major ethical question: to wit,
is the taking of two human lives a more serious crime
than the taking of one human life? The real question
here is, are all human lives equally valuable. If you
would like to offer a racist rationale which argues
that all human lives are not equally valuable, then by
all means be my guest.

If someone broke into your home and murdered two of
your family members, would that be a greater crime, in
your mind and in that of the American judicial system,
than if the intruder took the life of only one of your
family members? How much does each and every individual
human life count in this world?

You evaded answering this question in the previous
post, because if you did, you would have to explain why
you dismiss the murder of many millions of innocent
civilians by militant leftists in this century as a
matter of no moral or ethical consequence.

What did you say your real name is, by the way?




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