From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Aug  7 14:24:26 PDT 1996
Article: 75012 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: The Internet vs. the Big Media
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 20:45:45 GMT
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gfrazier@efn.org (Gary Frazier) wrote:

>I watched Ruddy comport himself in a weasly manner on national TV.  The 
>man was obviously not comfortable being confronted on the veracity of his 
>investigation.  He appeared to be evasive and defensive.  Wallace had his 
>number, and it showed big time.

The format of "60 Minutes" is rigged and fascist in structure. Wallace
and his comrades play the role of sadistic torture masters. They have
total control of the agenda. They have total control of what questions
are asked and what questions are answered. They are two-bit tyrants,
interrogators with a narrow agenda, not objective interviewers.

Let me assure you that if we subjected Mike Wallace or Don Hewitt to
the same format, we could make them squirm like weasels and look
flagrantly dishonest. The technique is simple: you comb through their
biographies to find their weakest points, and then press on those
points hard, while giving them no opportunity to break out of the box
of your agenda.

Hewitt and Wallace aren't journalists: they're crude propagandists.

If Wallace were forced to defend his ideas about Fostergate in the
free and open environment of the Internet, he would be crushed.
Without all his elaborate props and power-enhancing tricks, he's an
intellectual mediocrity.

This is the beauty of the Internet: you prevail by the strength of
your information and ideas, period. Usually it takes only two or three
exchanges between opposing parties on an issue to determine who has
the better information and analysis.

We have seen the process wonderfully at work in this newsgroup: Swopa,
Hanson, Frazier and Parson have been unable to address any of the
substance of Hugh Sprunt's "Citizen's Independent Report." It's
glaringly obvious to any intelligent person which parties are making
the most sense.

The Internet is the ultimate cool medium. Verbal abuse, bullying,
spamming and jamming get you nowhere. In fact, the more you rely on
those techniques, the more you destroy your credibility, and the
faster you sink like a stone.

Parson, Frazier and Hanson have permanently ruined their reputations
where it counts. Swopa, despite the more subdued style, is getting
close.

Here's a question for Mike Wallace: why haven't 60 Minutes or The
Washington Post hired document and handwriting experts to prove the
authenticity of Foster's suicide note?

Answer the question, Mike. (Mike squirms like a weasel.)
Answer the question, Mike. (Mike squirms like a weasel.)
Answer the question, Mike. (Mike squirms like a weasel.)

What's the matter: you can't answer the question, Mike?

How about you, Frazier: can't you answer the question?

You, Parson and Hanson have been offering one of the finest
demonstrations of squirming regarding Sprunt's "Citizen's Independent
Report" that I've ever seen on the Internet. It's going to be a
classic.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Aug  8 15:27:42 PDT 1996
Article: 75832 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Mark Fabiani vs. Roger Morris on Mena
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 04:22:15 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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nanomius@netcom.com (Albert Nanomius) wrote:

>   The Washington Post, August 7, 1996, p. A6. 
> 
> 
>   CIA Probed in Alleged Arms Shipments 
> 
>      Reports Claim Agents Involved in Arkansas-Nicaragua Drug 
>      Swaps 
> 
>   By Susan Schmidt 

>   Clinton has said he had nothing to do with any activities 
>   at Mena. "Mena is the darkest backwater of the right wing 
>   conspiracy industry," said White House spokesman Mark 
>   Fabiani. "The allegations are as bizarre as they are 
>   false." 

The most damaging information I have seen about Mena was presented in
Roger Morris's "Partners in Power." The information is
well-documented. Roger Morris is not a member of "the right wing
conspiracy industry"--his politics appear to be left-centrist.

I challenge Mark Fabiani or any other Clinton administration supporter
to present a point-by-point rebuttal of Morris's chapter on Mena on
the Internet, and to engage in a rational discussion and debate on the
subject.

The safe prediction is that we will either hear a dead silence from
this entire camp, or be treated to more jamming and torrents of
evasive verbal abuse. They are intellectually and morally bankrupt.

These people can no more rebut Roger Morris than they can rebut Hugh
Sprunt. They inhabit a world of propagandistic fantasies, not facts.

It is also a safe bet that John Deutch will only go through the
motions of investigating Mena, and produce a whitewash of the affair.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Aug 11 11:53:52 PDT 1996
Article: 76892 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: New Sprunt article in Media Bypass: some highlights
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:52:44 GMT
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gfrazier@efn.org (Gary Frazier) wrote:

>Why do the conspiracy theorists switch stories every three weeks?  

Hugh Sprunt's "Citizen's Independent Report" has been quite consistent
and stable for many more than three weeks.

You continue to embarrass yourself in this newsgroup, Frazier, by
revealing a complete ignorance about the details of the controversy
over Foster's death.

Let's see you address in a rational and informed way the information
in the executive summary of Sprunt's report:

--- BEGIN ----

Executive Summary 

The facts in this "Citizen's Independent Report" on the death of Mr.
Foster have been extracted directly from the raw evidence the Senate
released in January 1995 (2726 pages in three volumes).  This
voluminous Senate material is presented here in a much more coherent
and logical fashion. 

This report contains many citations to the official record, should
readers wish to check the accuracy of the quotations and other facts
in this report against the record.  This report contains evidence from
the US Park Police Case Jacket on the death of Vince Foster, from
later FBI witness interviews, from testimony and depositions taken in
connection with the 1994 Senate Whitewater Hearings, and from the huge
number of documents gathered by official investigators.  For a quick
overview of some of the disturbing facts taken straight from the
official record, see the next section of this report. 

The US Park Police Report, The Fiske Report, and the 1994 Senate
Report (the "Reports") selectively included data that supported the
officially-sanctioned "suicide verdict" and ignored, or gave little
weight to, those that did not.  Therefore, many facts in this report
will be "new," even to those who have followed the prior
investigations via the media.  The author is putting the disturbing
raw data from the record before the public in an attempt to convince
Congress to hold the open and unrestricted inquiry into Vince Foster's
death that should have occurred in July 1993. 

Examples of the selectivity of the official Reports: 1) Two witnesses
at Fort Marcy Park the afternoon of Vince Foster's death described
individuals whom they saw in the vicinity of Mr. Foster's Honda about
a half hour before his body was officially discovered.  One of these
individuals was seen sitting in the Honda.  The other stood by the
Honda which had its hood raised.  Mr. Foster was nowhere to be seen. 
These individuals were not considered important enough to be a factor
in the conclusions reached by the official Reports.  2) One of these
witnesses told the FBI that information recorded in her prior official
interview did not accurately reflect what she had said, but the
official Reports ignored that unpleasant circumstance. 

Witness statements and other useful data were ignored by the official
Reports unless they bolstered the "suicide verdict."  Examples: 1) The
decision to treat the death as a suicide was made before the Criminal
Investigation Branch investigators had even seen the body and 2) The
Park Police closed its investigation before learning whether the gun
found with Mr. Foster could shoot. 

There are gross contradictions in the record evidenced by the official
photographs, the FBI interview of the doctor who examined the body at
Fort Marcy, the official autopsy report, and the statements made by US
Park Police and Fairfax County personnel.  Times in the record are
often contradictory and items that disturb the official consensus are
given short shrift in the Reports.  There is strong evidence that
Foster's White House connection was known not later than 6:35 PM (at
least an hour before its "official" discovery), although the White
House was not notified until 8:30 PM per the Secret Service memo in
the record.  Are the various contradictions significant?  See the next
section. 

Mr. Foster's body and his Honda were searched, but no car keys were
found at Fort Marcy Park.  This raised the possibility that someone
else had driven his car to Fort Marcy Park.  Mr. Foster's car keys
were located in his previously-searched pants pocket hours later and
miles away from the park on the key ring holding his "personal" keys. 
Another key ring, with his White House keys, was discovered at that
time along with his personal keys.  The White House key ring held a
high-security type key, a plastic tab, a key for double-bitted cam
locks, and two keys for standard door locks. 

This report offers no "ultimate" reason for Mr. Foster's death. 
Instead, it describes the very sizable errors, omissions, and
inconsistencies latent in the record, items that have not been part of
the public debate about his death.  It's time they should be.  They
are amazing enough all by themselves

--- END ----
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Aug 28 16:32:25 PDT 1996
Article: 82330 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.government.abuse,soc.culture.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.activism,alt.activism.d,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Re: October Surprise
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:40:29 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Tim Watson  wrote:

>gary addis wrote:
>> 
>> Jim Galasyn wrote:
>> >
>> > Tim Watson wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.  The "October Surprise"
>> > > mentioned in the quote from Tom Foley, above, is the nonsensecle tale by Gary
>> > > Sick that George Bush met Iranian officials in Paris in 1980 to arrange for
>> > > the delay of the release of the American hostages who, the story goes, would
>> > > have been released before election day, 1980, thus (supposedly) assuring
>> > > Carter's re-election.  There was no independent evidence of this tale...
>> >
>> > Untrue. Please see:
>> >
>> > Parry, Robert, TRICK OR TREASON: THE OCTOBER SURPRISE MYSTERY, Sheridan
>> >      Square Press, New York, ISBN 1-879823-08-X, 1993.
>> >
>> > The question remains open, but the circumstantial evidence is quite
>> > damning.
>> >
>> > Jim Galasyn
>> 
>> Incredible, isn't it, Jim.  These conspiracy loons savor every wild, cheesy rumor Rush Limburger
>> spreads on their toast.  But if it denigrates Conservative icons, it's "unsubstantiated."
>
>
>You've got it backwards, pal, and even the ol' Clinton two-step won't cover 
>you.  It's the looney left that concocts and exports the nuttiest conspiracy 
>theories in this century, and then peddles them like a hooker selling love.
>
>But read Partners in Power, by one of your compatriots, and find out what 
>your are missing in the realm of fact while your nutcase friends are selling 
>their smack.
>
>And tone down your arrogance.  You are missing a life.

Nothing better illustrates the deep difficulties and
confusion of Republicans regarding "Whitewater" than
this message.

Supposedly those who wonder about the October Surprise
are "loons." All speculations about conspiracies
involving Democrats like Bill Clinton are, however,
perfectly sane.

If one does indeed read "Partners in Power" carefully,
which Tim Watson obviously hasn't, one will quickly
realize that Ronald Reagan, Bill Casey and the
Republican Party were much more responsible for any
crimes committed at Mena than Bill Clinton and the
Democrats.

Any full investigation of "Whitewater" will damage the
Republicans at least as much as the Democrats, and
quite likely lead all the way back through Iran-Contra
to the October Surprise.

No wonder Republicans in the know are afraid to lay a
hand on Clinton. Not only that, Clinton gives every
appearance of being a closet Republican who is doing
more to dismantle the liberal state than Dole or any
other overt Republican leader ever could.
Clinton has managed to completely hoodwink his fellow
Democrats. It's a brilliant performance.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Aug 28 16:42:54 PDT 1996
Article: 443037 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.government.abuse,soc.culture.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.activism,alt.activism.d,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Re: October Surprise
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:40:29 GMT
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Tim Watson  wrote:

>gary addis wrote:
>> 
>> Jim Galasyn wrote:
>> >
>> > Tim Watson wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.  The "October Surprise"
>> > > mentioned in the quote from Tom Foley, above, is the nonsensecle tale by Gary
>> > > Sick that George Bush met Iranian officials in Paris in 1980 to arrange for
>> > > the delay of the release of the American hostages who, the story goes, would
>> > > have been released before election day, 1980, thus (supposedly) assuring
>> > > Carter's re-election.  There was no independent evidence of this tale...
>> >
>> > Untrue. Please see:
>> >
>> > Parry, Robert, TRICK OR TREASON: THE OCTOBER SURPRISE MYSTERY, Sheridan
>> >      Square Press, New York, ISBN 1-879823-08-X, 1993.
>> >
>> > The question remains open, but the circumstantial evidence is quite
>> > damning.
>> >
>> > Jim Galasyn
>> 
>> Incredible, isn't it, Jim.  These conspiracy loons savor every wild, cheesy rumor Rush Limburger
>> spreads on their toast.  But if it denigrates Conservative icons, it's "unsubstantiated."
>
>
>You've got it backwards, pal, and even the ol' Clinton two-step won't cover 
>you.  It's the looney left that concocts and exports the nuttiest conspiracy 
>theories in this century, and then peddles them like a hooker selling love.
>
>But read Partners in Power, by one of your compatriots, and find out what 
>your are missing in the realm of fact while your nutcase friends are selling 
>their smack.
>
>And tone down your arrogance.  You are missing a life.

Nothing better illustrates the deep difficulties and
confusion of Republicans regarding "Whitewater" than
this message.

Supposedly those who wonder about the October Surprise
are "loons." All speculations about conspiracies
involving Democrats like Bill Clinton are, however,
perfectly sane.

If one does indeed read "Partners in Power" carefully,
which Tim Watson obviously hasn't, one will quickly
realize that Ronald Reagan, Bill Casey and the
Republican Party were much more responsible for any
crimes committed at Mena than Bill Clinton and the
Democrats.

Any full investigation of "Whitewater" will damage the
Republicans at least as much as the Democrats, and
quite likely lead all the way back through Iran-Contra
to the October Surprise.

No wonder Republicans in the know are afraid to lay a
hand on Clinton. Not only that, Clinton gives every
appearance of being a closet Republican who is doing
more to dismantle the liberal state than Dole or any
other overt Republican leader ever could.
Clinton has managed to completely hoodwink his fellow
Democrats. It's a brilliant performance.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Aug 28 16:42:56 PDT 1996
Article: 443142 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.dear.whitehouse,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.conservatives
Subject: Swopa on Roger Morris
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:13:42 GMT
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SwopaTwo@aol.com (Swopa) wrote:

>P.S.  Lyons doesn't report this in his book.  It's in his review of
>"Partners in Power" in the New York Review of Books (August
>8 issue, I think).  He debunks several other lies that Roger Morris
>tells in the book, too.
>
>Oh, and speaking of lies -- did you see the post from DenMorPar
>(either Sally Denton or Roger Morris himself) a few weeks back
>on this subject?

Nothing better demonstrates the feeble-mindedness of
your robotic partisan propaganda efforts than your
campaign now to smear and dismiss Roger Morris as a
liar.

And this is from a person who doesn't even have the
guts to use her real name on the Internet.

Could you please provide us with your real name so that
we can compare your credentials and credibility with
that of Roger Morris (and Hugh Sprunt)? Your real
identity might also explain a good deal about the
nature of your narrow political agenda.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Aug 29 10:19:30 PDT 1996
Article: 443365 of talk.politics.misc
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.activism,talk.politics.misc,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.dear.whitehouse,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Swopa on Roger Morris
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:17:35 GMT
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hexis@netcom.com (James C. Harrison) wrote:

>I have serious problems with Roger Morris' book, but my complaints are 
>not based on a comparison of his credentials and those of Gene Lyons. 
>It's simply that Morris gets so many facts wrong that you eventually have 
>to believe that the man is incompetent, biased, or simply out to exploit 
>the lucrative anti-Clinton market. Mr. Lyons review is a useful summary 
>of some of Morris' errors.

I would like to see the list of facts that Morris got wrong, and
then give Morris an opportunity to answer the points in question.
The Internet provides a wonderful forum for pursuing these kinds
of questions.

 I haven't read Lyons yet.

Isn't it fascinating that when Morris wrote an honest biography
about Nixon, he was hailed by the big media as a genius, but when
he wrote a similarly honest biography about Bill Clinton, the big
media treated him like he was the skunk at the garden party? Have
Morris's journalistic and literary skills really declined so
dramatically from his Nixon to his Clinton biographies? Or are
the big media simply exposing their crude ideological agenda?

>By the way, I never post anonymously, though I understand why some folks 
>chose to do so granted the murderous passions so frequently expressed in 
>these lists.

There is another reason why many people post anonymously or under
pseudonyms: to avoid responsibility for making irresponsible
statements. Much of the worst crap in cyberspace is posted by
people who lack the courage to use their real names. "Pat Parson"
and "Richard Hanson" are classic examples of the problem.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Aug 29 10:30:16 PDT 1996
Article: 304558 of talk.politics.guns
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.government.abuse,soc.culture.usa,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.reform,alt.journalism,alt.news-media,alt.activism,alt.activism.d,alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater
Subject: Re: October Surprise
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:40:29 GMT
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Tim Watson  wrote:

>gary addis wrote:
>> 
>> Jim Galasyn wrote:
>> >
>> > Tim Watson wrote:
>> >
>> > > I'm not sure you know what you're talking about.  The "October Surprise"
>> > > mentioned in the quote from Tom Foley, above, is the nonsensecle tale by Gary
>> > > Sick that George Bush met Iranian officials in Paris in 1980 to arrange for
>> > > the delay of the release of the American hostages who, the story goes, would
>> > > have been released before election day, 1980, thus (supposedly) assuring
>> > > Carter's re-election.  There was no independent evidence of this tale...
>> >
>> > Untrue. Please see:
>> >
>> > Parry, Robert, TRICK OR TREASON: THE OCTOBER SURPRISE MYSTERY, Sheridan
>> >      Square Press, New York, ISBN 1-879823-08-X, 1993.
>> >
>> > The question remains open, but the circumstantial evidence is quite
>> > damning.
>> >
>> > Jim Galasyn
>> 
>> Incredible, isn't it, Jim.  These conspiracy loons savor every wild, cheesy rumor Rush Limburger
>> spreads on their toast.  But if it denigrates Conservative icons, it's "unsubstantiated."
>
>
>You've got it backwards, pal, and even the ol' Clinton two-step won't cover 
>you.  It's the looney left that concocts and exports the nuttiest conspiracy 
>theories in this century, and then peddles them like a hooker selling love.
>
>But read Partners in Power, by one of your compatriots, and find out what 
>your are missing in the realm of fact while your nutcase friends are selling 
>their smack.
>
>And tone down your arrogance.  You are missing a life.

Nothing better illustrates the deep difficulties and
confusion of Republicans regarding "Whitewater" than
this message.

Supposedly those who wonder about the October Surprise
are "loons." All speculations about conspiracies
involving Democrats like Bill Clinton are, however,
perfectly sane.

If one does indeed read "Partners in Power" carefully,
which Tim Watson obviously hasn't, one will quickly
realize that Ronald Reagan, Bill Casey and the
Republican Party were much more responsible for any
crimes committed at Mena than Bill Clinton and the
Democrats.

Any full investigation of "Whitewater" will damage the
Republicans at least as much as the Democrats, and
quite likely lead all the way back through Iran-Contra
to the October Surprise.

No wonder Republicans in the know are afraid to lay a
hand on Clinton. Not only that, Clinton gives every
appearance of being a closet Republican who is doing
more to dismantle the liberal state than Dole or any
other overt Republican leader ever could.
Clinton has managed to completely hoodwink his fellow
Democrats. It's a brilliant performance.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

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