From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue Apr 23 10:40:44 PDT 1996
Article: 70952 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Israel, Biological Warfare and Genocide
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 12:53:45 GMT
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Red_Herring@alpha.c2.org (Red Herring) wrote:

>	As to the Muslims' numeric superiority over the Jews... 
>	imagine a genetically-engineered virus programmed to attack
>	those who fit a particular genetic profile: a Hizbullah
>	plague, Hamas plague, Islamic Jihad plague, mad camel 
>	disease...
>
>	Is the position of Arabs and Muslims vis-a-vis Jews roughly
>	equivalent to that of dinosaurs vis-a-vis mammals?

Are you suggesting that "the Jews" (your term) in the defense of Israel
should wipe out the world's one billion Muslims with biological warfare and
biological terrorism?

Victor Ostrovsky, the former Mossad employee, has stated that Israel was
looking closely into this kind of technology.

Do you think these sorts of proposals are doing much to enhance the
reputation of Israel and Judaism in the world? Don't they rather play into
certain famous anti-Semitic stereotypes revolving around poisoning?

Is this the sort of outcome for Zionism that Theodor Herzl had in mind? No,
he failed to foresee any of the consequences of the program he pursued with
such messianic zeal. The greater the messianism and the less the rational
pragmatism, the greater the likelihood of the catastrophes that almost
always accompany false prophets like Bar Kokhba, Sabbatai Sevi and Karl
Marx.

This is the hottest question of the moment for thoughtful Jews: are Moses
Hess and Theodor Herzl in the tradition of false messiahs like Kokhba, Sevi
and Marx, or true prophets? Were their ideas well-grounded in reality and
reason or not?

With Moses Hess, we can already see that one pillar of his two-pillared
messianism has collapsed: communism. (The other pillar was Zionism--he was
the intellectual godfather of Zionism.)

There may be many features of Hess's and Herzl's personalities and thought
patterns that will prove to be reliable predictors of the success (or
failure) of their visionary projects. Students of biography and messianic
religious history and psychology should perhaps start looking into the
matter.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Tue Apr 23 10:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 70939 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Is Palestine the Vietnam of the Jews?
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 21:33:40 GMT
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bdissen@netvision.net.il (Binyamin Dissen) wrote:

>:>The current drift of events in the Mideast makes that famous cynical remark by
>:>British foreign policy experts--that Palestine would make an excellent
>:>mousetrap for the Jews--seem remarkably prescient.
>
>So, let it snap. Won't that make you happy?

In fact, I am beginning to wonder whether the trap didn't snap shut from
the very first instant Israel formally established itself as a state. At
that moment, certain circles in Western power elites and intelligence knew
that they had achieved certain far-reaching strategic aims which may have
had little to do with the interests or well-being of Jews.

>:>Have you ever stopped to consider that some of Zionism's supposed best friends
>:>in Western governments and intelligence circles, like William Casey, may have
>:>helped bait the trap in Palestine for their own political reasons? Have you
>:>been taken to the cleaners by slick operators who have played on a weakness
>:>for messianism?
>
>And, you are trying to protect me. Wow, thank you. I am certainly glad that
>I have friends like you! I only wish that I had a hundred like you
>(unfortunately I have millions of friends like you).

I am trying to raise what might be an important idea in a friendly way.
Perhaps you should try to grasp the idea.

If Jews presently find themselves sinking into a quagmire in the Middle
East, is it possible that they were eased into this impossible position by
their best gentile "friends" in the West, who have been perhaps a bit more
clever and cunning than most people would credit?

Was Zionism and Israel fashioned into a weapon by Western strategists from
Winston Churchill through James Angleton and William Casey primarily to
turn against Marxism and Communism?

Review the history of Zionism from Herzl to the present. Think about it.

"Palestine would make an excellent mousetrap for the Jews." And it provided
an excellent weapon to use against Communism. Perhaps two objectives
achieved simultaneously.

And a whole lot of messianic true believers went for the bait hook, line
and sinker, starting with Herzl, who, from the standpoint of Western policy
elites, was perhaps a useful idiot. And now they are stuck with the mess.
They are unable to figure out exactly how they got into it, and they are
entirely without any good ideas about how to extricate themselves from it.

The more that anyone tries to point out reasonably that there might be a
problem, the more angrily they thrash and the more deeply they drive in the
hook.

What's the suggestion here? Jews, at a minimum, need to go back and
carefully reexamine all the premises of Zionism from the ground up, recheck
all the calculations.

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Apr 24 14:56:14 PDT 1996
Article: 44470 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:46:49 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Make no mistake: Israel is deliberately waging a terrorist war against the
civilian population of Lebanon--General Amnon Shahak has admitted as much
in his public statements in recent days.

The main point here for Americans is that we are subsidizing this
terrorism, and are going to have to pay a heavy moral, political and
financial price for it.

So why are we paying for terrorist activities by Israel that are contrary
to American values and interests? What are the methods by which Israel has
managed to ruin the best judgment of Bill Clinton and Warren Christopher
and drag them and the United States in the mud along with itself in its
vicious and self-destructive policy?

Isn't there a single person in the NSC with the brains and guts to tell the
Israeli government?--You are nuts. If you want to be flagrant terrorists,
and broadcast your terrorism throughout the world media day after day, and
utterly destroy what remains of your tattered reputation, please stay far
away from us and ask us for no more favors. We want nothing to do with you.
You are on your own. Have a nice day.

---BEGIN---  	  				 
	 TYRE, Lebanon, April 24 (Reuter) - Israel cut roads and  
water supply for thousands of villagers in south Lebanon on 
Wednesday in what U.N. peacekeepers said had become a war mainly 
against civilians. 
	 ``They are starving out people, making them thirsty,'' said  
Mikael Lindvall, spokesman for UNIFIL peacekeepers in southern 
Lebanon who have been trying to get aid to villagers trapped by 
Israel's offensive against Hizbollah guerrillas. 
	 ``Mainly it's become a war against the civilian  
population,'' Lindvall said. 
	 As Israeli attacks, triggered by Hizbollah firing Katyusha  
rockets into northern Israel, ended a second week there was no 
let up in the fighting. 
	 UNIFIL reported that Israeli air attacks on Wednesday had  
closed three roads leading into a hilly region in the centre of 
area under Israeli assault, preventing aid convoys from reaching 
an estimated 5,000 to 6,000 Lebanese civilians still there -- a 
tenth of the population before Israel warned everyone to flee. 
	 Israeli attacks also destroyed the main water pipe leading  
to the region, which humanitarian officials said could create 
serious problems. 
	 ``In that case we have lots of people in the area who will  
be without water soon,'' Lindvall said. 
	 Red Cross and U.N. officials, who said such attacks violated  
international conventions on warfare, were attempting to get it 
repaired. 
	 U.N. officials said the policy of targeting roads with air  
raids began last weekend but heavy shelling and earlier damage 
had prevented aid convoys from reaching some villages since the 
Israeli assault began on April 11. 
	 Israel also continued to disrupt traffic to south Lebanon  
>from  Beirut, firing from gunships off the coast at traffic 
running a gauntlet down the coastal highway. 
	 Despite the Israeli attacks, U.N. convoys continued winding  
into the hills, bringing food to those Lebanese staying there 
and carrying out those who no longer can take the 
round-the-clock explosions. 
	 A UNIFIL convoy went to the village of Hinniyeh after being  
alerted that civilians wanted to be evacuated to the relative 
safety of Tyre. 
	 Israeli helicopter gunships hovered in the distance and an  
Israeli surveillance drone cruised overhead. As the convoy 
entered the village, an Israeli jet dived and released a bomb 
500 metres from the convoy, throwing a cloud of smoke and debris 
into the sky. 
	 ``They just gave us a warning -- they don't like us going  
into the villages,'' said a UNIFIL soldier escorting reporters 
in an armoured personnel carrier. 
	 ``It's a signal -- they know what they are doing.''  
	 So far Israel's offensive has had no measurable effect on  
Hizbollah guerrillas, who continue to lob their inaccurate 
Katyusha rockets into Israel. 
	 UNIFIL officials say the chief victims have been people like  
the four terrified old men and seven women -- one blind -- who 
were evacuated from Hinniyeh. 
	 Some 400,000 Lebanese have been driven from their homes with  
155 killed and hundreds wounded. 
	 ``That's become routine,'' said a UNIFIL official of the  
bomb near the convoy. ``At least 60 to 70 percent of the convoys 
face air raids or shelling near them.'' 
	 ``I don't know what purpose it serves for the Israelis to  
stop us getting food to people unless they want to starve the 
people out of the villages,'' he said. ``It's a strange way to 
fight a war.'' 
---END---  	   	
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Apr 24 16:16:08 PDT 1996
Article: 71070 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:46:49 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Make no mistake: Israel is deliberately waging a terrorist war against the
civilian population of Lebanon--General Amnon Shahak has admitted as much
in his public statements in recent days.

The main point here for Americans is that we are subsidizing this
terrorism, and are going to have to pay a heavy moral, political and
financial price for it.

So why are we paying for terrorist activities by Israel that are contrary
to American values and interests? What are the methods by which Israel has
managed to ruin the best judgment of Bill Clinton and Warren Christopher
and drag them and the United States in the mud along with itself in its
vicious and self-destructive policy?

Isn't there a single person in the NSC with the brains and guts to tell the
Israeli government?--You are nuts. If you want to be flagrant terrorists,
and broadcast your terrorism throughout the world media day after day, and
utterly destroy what remains of your tattered reputation, please stay far
away from us and ask us for no more favors. We want nothing to do with you.
You are on your own. Have a nice day.

---BEGIN---  	  				 
	 TYRE, Lebanon, April 24 (Reuter) - Israel cut roads and  
water supply for thousands of villagers in south Lebanon on 
Wednesday in what U.N. peacekeepers said had become a war mainly 
against civilians. 
	 ``They are starving out people, making them thirsty,'' said  
Mikael Lindvall, spokesman for UNIFIL peacekeepers in southern 
Lebanon who have been trying to get aid to villagers trapped by 
Israel's offensive against Hizbollah guerrillas. 
	 ``Mainly it's become a war against the civilian  
population,'' Lindvall said. 
	 As Israeli attacks, triggered by Hizbollah firing Katyusha  
rockets into northern Israel, ended a second week there was no 
let up in the fighting. 
	 UNIFIL reported that Israeli air attacks on Wednesday had  
closed three roads leading into a hilly region in the centre of 
area under Israeli assault, preventing aid convoys from reaching 
an estimated 5,000 to 6,000 Lebanese civilians still there -- a 
tenth of the population before Israel warned everyone to flee. 
	 Israeli attacks also destroyed the main water pipe leading  
to the region, which humanitarian officials said could create 
serious problems. 
	 ``In that case we have lots of people in the area who will  
be without water soon,'' Lindvall said. 
	 Red Cross and U.N. officials, who said such attacks violated  
international conventions on warfare, were attempting to get it 
repaired. 
	 U.N. officials said the policy of targeting roads with air  
raids began last weekend but heavy shelling and earlier damage 
had prevented aid convoys from reaching some villages since the 
Israeli assault began on April 11. 
	 Israel also continued to disrupt traffic to south Lebanon  
>from  Beirut, firing from gunships off the coast at traffic 
running a gauntlet down the coastal highway. 
	 Despite the Israeli attacks, U.N. convoys continued winding  
into the hills, bringing food to those Lebanese staying there 
and carrying out those who no longer can take the 
round-the-clock explosions. 
	 A UNIFIL convoy went to the village of Hinniyeh after being  
alerted that civilians wanted to be evacuated to the relative 
safety of Tyre. 
	 Israeli helicopter gunships hovered in the distance and an  
Israeli surveillance drone cruised overhead. As the convoy 
entered the village, an Israeli jet dived and released a bomb 
500 metres from the convoy, throwing a cloud of smoke and debris 
into the sky. 
	 ``They just gave us a warning -- they don't like us going  
into the villages,'' said a UNIFIL soldier escorting reporters 
in an armoured personnel carrier. 
	 ``It's a signal -- they know what they are doing.''  
	 So far Israel's offensive has had no measurable effect on  
Hizbollah guerrillas, who continue to lob their inaccurate 
Katyusha rockets into Israel. 
	 UNIFIL officials say the chief victims have been people like  
the four terrified old men and seven women -- one blind -- who 
were evacuated from Hinniyeh. 
	 Some 400,000 Lebanese have been driven from their homes with  
155 killed and hundreds wounded. 
	 ``That's become routine,'' said a UNIFIL official of the  
bomb near the convoy. ``At least 60 to 70 percent of the convoys 
face air raids or shelling near them.'' 
	 ``I don't know what purpose it serves for the Israelis to  
stop us getting food to people unless they want to starve the 
people out of the villages,'' he said. ``It's a strange way to 
fight a war.'' 
---END---  	   	
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Wed Apr 24 17:30:42 PDT 1996
Article: 44485 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Is Palestine the Vietnam of the Jews?
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 17:51:59 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <317e66ac.19093057@news.cybercom.net>
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birchse@sparcdii.derby.ac.uk (Scott) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire wrote:
>> 
>> An exercise in thinking the unthinkable, but it must be done:
>> 
>> Is Palestine the Vietnam of the Jews?
>
>Wasn't that the Lebanon in 1982? (and soon to be again, I suspect)

Right: the '82 fiasco was rightly compared to Vietnam.

And the '96 fiasco is in some respects almost a carbon copy of '82, except
the whole process this time reached its dreadful conclusion much more
speedily. The massacre at Qana is analogous to the massacre at Sabra and
Shatilla. Both Reagan and Clinton were badly burned by the Israelis in the
respective enterprises.

But this is the bigger question: is the Mideast as a whole, and the project
of Zionism in the Mideast, the Vietnam of the Jews? After reading fairly
deeply into Theodor Herzl's personality and thinking, I'd say damned
likely. Herzl was a hardcore messianist who paid not the least attention to
the hard political and cultural facts on the ground in and around
Palestine. History is more likely to judge him as a Bar Kokhba, Sabbatai
Sevi or Karl Marx, than as a Moses or Thomas Jefferson. This guy simply
does not inspire confidence.

If the bottom line on Zionism is the triggering of a holy war between
Judaism and Islam, one in which the Western world has little interest in
involving itself, then Zionism will possibly turn out to be the worst
catastrophe in Jewish history, exceeding the horror of the revolt against
Rome and the Holocaust.

The world media are reporting today that the sole effect of Israel's
attempt to bully Lebanese civilians into submission has been to unite them
in hatred against Israel. For the first time in history, Lebanese
Christians and Muslims are now joined in unity with Hezbollah against the
Jewish state and its friends everywhere.

How in the world did Peres fail to see that this would be the inevitable
outcome of deliberately terrorizing hundreds of thousands of Lebanese
civilians?

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Apr 25 11:54:16 PDT 1996
Article: 44588 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel on the Road to Ruin
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:51:50 GMT
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Red_Herring@alpha.c2.org (Red Herring) wrote:

>In article <3176f53a.95679147@news.cybercom.net>,
>   wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>>In other words, according to Israel's doctrine of purity of arms, one is
>>well-justified in murdering children and women in a clearly marked ambulance
>>if your target is a single "guerilla" who also happens to be present in the
>>ambulance.
>
>	This was no ambulance: it was neither equipped, nor used, to
>	transport the sick when hit by a rocket.

If you visit the Web site of The Los Angeles Times (@latimes), you will
find the best accounting of the ambulance incident I have seen in the world
media to date.

When Israel claimed that the driver of the ambulance was a "terrorist" or a
"guerilla," it was either seriously mistaken or lying. Since Israel has
been caught out in so many lies in its dealings with Lebanon over the
recent years, there is a strong probability that Israel is lying once
again.

Israel is now officially on record as supporting a policy of attacking
clearly marked ambulances and murdering children as a legitimate war
policy. That is a Nazi-like policy, a policy of deliberate state terrorism,
and Israel will have to pay a heavy price in world public opinion for it.

In Operation Grapes of Wrath, Israel severely alienated the American media
and American public opinion, and made Bill Clinton and Warren Christopher
look like fools. Both Clinton and Christopher have been wildly out of touch
with the views of the vast majority of Americans in the present
controversy. Instead of paying attention to fundamental American values and
mainstream American opinion, they have allowed themselves to be dragged
around by the nose by the Israeli government and the American Israeli
lobby.

If Likud thinks it is going to benefit from this mess because of the damage
that has been done to Peres, its political calculations on the global scale
are grossly awry. The effect of Operation Big Mess will be to reduce the
ability of Likud to engage in similar or more violent actions.

Now, if Likud wants to take the attitude of telling the world and the
United States to go to hell on these issues, by all means do so, and see
what happens. Make their day.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Apr 25 11:54:18 PDT 1996
Article: 44623 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 13:25:40 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
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I wonder how much longer the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are going
to be able to ignore the deluge of Jewish hate messaging on the Internet
and elsewhere in cyberspace.

There have been literally thousands of messages like the one below posted
on the Usenet in Jewish-oriented newsgroups during recent years, expressing
vicious hatred and bigotry towards Christians, Muslims, Arabs, Americans,
Europeans, Third World peoples, secular Jews, Reform Jews--the list of
demonized enemies targeted for destruction is endless. It's quite possible
that the volume of hardcore hate messaging in these newsgroups--especially
soc.culture.israel and soc.culture.jewish--exceeds that in the vast
majority of other newsgroups. It is impossible to pretend any longer that
this extremism represents an insignificant fringe in the Jewish world.

This hatred has led to the murder of the head of the world's only Jewish
state (Yitzhak Rabin), and it may well lead to other similar or worse acts,
including attacks on Western institutions and leaders.

There are reports that Deja News intends to go back, index and make
available the full text of the Usenet from its start over a decade ago.

How long will it be before all these hate messages are culled, carefully
organized, and made available on a World Wide Web site that anyone in the
world can peruse and ponder? What an amazing Museum of Hate could be built
>from  these thousands of messages oozing hatred towards virtually every
ethnic and religious group in the world.

Shouldn't the ADL and Simon Wiesenthal Center strongly address this problem
before other groups are forced to? How will it be possible for Jewish human
rights organizations to maintain credibility while this cancer grows
unchecked?

The author below is asserting that God and the Jewish Bible have ordered
the genocidal extermination of any ethnic group (including women and
children) that some Jews have defined as "Amalek," that is, as their enemy
of the day. The theme is familiar: the Nazis defined the Jews as their
personal Amalek.

---BEGIN---
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From: Red_Herring@alpha.c2.org (Red Herring)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: A Letter to God (Israeli Bombing)
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 96 02:26:28 GMT
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In article ,
   nyt@blythe.org wrote:
>From: NY Transfer News Collective 
>
>
>Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 17:50:34 -0500
>From: jimfloyd@cneti.com (Jim Floyd)
>
>                   AN OPEN LETTER TO GOD
>
>Where were You yesterday? Surely You were not helping the Israelis who
>fired that deadly blitz into the U.N. refugee camp? Did you go there 
and
>see the carnage?

	Not only did HaShem see the carnage, He brought it about:

Exodus 17:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in 
a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put 
out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

..

Deut. 25:17: Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, 
when ye were come forth out of Egypt; 

	We do, and always will.
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Apr 26 09:13:32 PDT 1996
Article: 71118 of talk.politics.mideast
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!caen!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Israel on the Road to Ruin
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 12:51:50 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <317e2022.1033021@news.cybercom.net>
References: <3176f53a.95679147@news.cybercom.net> <4l9d0v$6ia@tribune.concentric.net>
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Red_Herring@alpha.c2.org (Red Herring) wrote:

>In article <3176f53a.95679147@news.cybercom.net>,
>   wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>>In other words, according to Israel's doctrine of purity of arms, one is
>>well-justified in murdering children and women in a clearly marked ambulance
>>if your target is a single "guerilla" who also happens to be present in the
>>ambulance.
>
>	This was no ambulance: it was neither equipped, nor used, to
>	transport the sick when hit by a rocket.

If you visit the Web site of The Los Angeles Times (@latimes), you will
find the best accounting of the ambulance incident I have seen in the world
media to date.

When Israel claimed that the driver of the ambulance was a "terrorist" or a
"guerilla," it was either seriously mistaken or lying. Since Israel has
been caught out in so many lies in its dealings with Lebanon over the
recent years, there is a strong probability that Israel is lying once
again.

Israel is now officially on record as supporting a policy of attacking
clearly marked ambulances and murdering children as a legitimate war
policy. That is a Nazi-like policy, a policy of deliberate state terrorism,
and Israel will have to pay a heavy price in world public opinion for it.

In Operation Grapes of Wrath, Israel severely alienated the American media
and American public opinion, and made Bill Clinton and Warren Christopher
look like fools. Both Clinton and Christopher have been wildly out of touch
with the views of the vast majority of Americans in the present
controversy. Instead of paying attention to fundamental American values and
mainstream American opinion, they have allowed themselves to be dragged
around by the nose by the Israeli government and the American Israeli
lobby.

If Likud thinks it is going to benefit from this mess because of the damage
that has been done to Peres, its political calculations on the global scale
are grossly awry. The effect of Operation Big Mess will be to reduce the
ability of Likud to engage in similar or more violent actions.

Now, if Likud wants to take the attitude of telling the world and the
United States to go to hell on these issues, by all means do so, and see
what happens. Make their day.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Apr 26 23:51:54 PDT 1996
Article: 32902 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism (Lessons of the Holocaust)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:09:49 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <318181d5.51009050@news.cybercom.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2-27.cybercom.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.182

Many people in these newsgroups have asserted that Israel's massacre of
civilians at Qana, including many women and children, was an "accident."

Check out the article by Bruce W. Nelan in this week's Time magazine at:

http://pathfinder.com/@@@VXTaoPcRQAAQMHA/time/international/1996/960429/coverint.html

Remarks Nelan:

---BEGIN---
The shells--at least a dozen--fell on the unprotected civilians for 11
or 12 minutes while U.N. officials frantically tried to get the
Israelis to stop. Even after the official request had been made and
acknowledged by Israel, one to two minutes into the barrage, the guns
kept firing. Says U.N. spokesman Timor Goksel: "We asked Israel
several times to stop firing on the Fijian headquarters, telling them
that we had civilian victims, but in vain." 
---END---

In other words, according to Time, there is strong evidence that Israel's
massacre of civilians was cold-blooded and deliberate.

No doubt this is why the article is entitled "Israel's 'Grave Error'". The
quotes around "grave error" are intended to convey irony and even sarcasm.

The continuing propaganda blitz and lies from Israeli true believers about
what really happened are only compounding the damage of the original
massacre.

Nelan goes on to comment in Time:

---BEGIN---
The devastation was sickening, a carnage of incinerated corpses, body
parts and blood. "I couldn't count the bodies," said Swedish U.N.
Captain Mikael Lindvall at the compound right after the attack. "There
were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."
No one is sure precisely how many men, women and children died or even
who they were, because so many were literally blown to pieces. Even on
Saturday, two days after the attack, the number of dead was still
climbing. 
---END---
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Apr 26 23:51:56 PDT 1996
Article: 32903 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Israeli State Terrorism (Lessons of the Holocaust)
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 02:10:20 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <318181f9.51044757@news.cybercom.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dial2-27.cybercom.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.182

In the Jewish Bulletin in the following article

     http://www.jewish.com/jb/ifrenzy.htm

appears the following paragraphs at the tail end:

---BEGIN---
In hopes of winning an end to the Hezbollah attacks, the Israeli military
campaign, Operation Grapes of Wrath, is at least partly aimed at pressuring
the Beirut government into reining in the fundamentalist group.

The Israel Defense Force chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Amnon Shahak, said the
massive wave of 400,000 Lebanese refugees fleeing the repeated Israeli
bombardments of targets in southern Lebanon would force the Lebanese
government into action.

"This flood of people is going to put pressure on the Lebanese government,
and in turn, on Hezbollah," Shahak said Sunday.
---END---

In other words, Israel has deliberately terrorized and collectively
punished nearly a half million Lebanese civilians with the aim of
pressuring Hezbollah. Lt. Gen. Amnon Shahak has explicitly declared and
explained the policy. Shahak also defended the murder of four young girls
and two women in Israel's attack on a clearly marked ambulance.

Without a doubt, these are terrorist and Nazi-like policies. History will
judge them as such. The stain is going to rub off on anyone who tries to
rationalize, justify or defend these policies.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Apr 27 07:48:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45123 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 05:09:42 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <3181a91f.61068886@news.cybercom.net>
References: <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net> <4ls2pl$dbm@tribune.concentric.net>
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Red_Herring@alpha.c2.org (Red Herring) wrote:

>In article <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net>,
>   wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:
>
>> The theme is familiar: the Nazis defined the Jews as their
>> personal Amalek.
>
>	As always, Wayne does a better job speaking for the Nazis
>	than interpreting the Torah.

You've made it clear that according to your interpretation God commands the
Jews to exterminate any ethnic, religious or national group--including
women and children--upon which they stick the tag "Amalek."

One often sees the same exterminationist point of view in Brooklyn's
Orthodox "Jewish Press," which has a larger circulation than any other
Jewish newspaper in the U.S.

Perhaps you could explain how this doctrine varies from Nazism, Communism
or any other messianic ideology which sanctions wiping out entire human
groups.

These were your exact words:

---BEGIN---
>                   AN OPEN LETTER TO GOD
>
>Where were You yesterday? Surely You were not helping the Israelis who
>fired that deadly blitz into the U.N. refugee camp? Did you go there and
>see the carnage?

	Not only did HaShem see the carnage, He brought it about:

Exodus 17:14: And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in 
a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put 
out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

..

Deut. 25:17: Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, 
when ye were come forth out of Egypt; 

	We do, and always will.
---END---

One wonders how many members of the Israeli military share your beliefs. A
considerable number, from all recent accounts. Perhaps some of them made
the decision to keep shelling Qana after they were warned by U.N. forces
that civilians were being slaughtered.

The problem here is that these zealots, who may well control nuclear,
biological and chemical weapons, are gradually expanding their definition
of Amalek to include almost the entire human race. Islamic fundamentalists
may not be the chief threat to the world these days.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Apr 27 16:59:26 PDT 1996
Article: 45256 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:37:11 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <31822dce.3139058@news.cybercom.net>
References: <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net> <4loirs$2ih@dopey.magg.net>
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odin@grumpy.magg.net (Erebus) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:

>: I wonder how much longer the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are going
>: to be able to ignore the deluge of Jewish hate messaging on the Internet
>: and elsewhere in cyberspace.
>
>If anyone is on the hate track it is most decidedly you Wayne McGuire.
>But, this is a democracy, so we permit you to spew your despictable 
>hatred for the Jews. It doesn't bother us a bit.
>
>-HR-

You haven't managed to engage in a reasonable discussion on a single
substantive fact or idea in this newsgroup that I've been able to discern.

I checked out your Web page and discovered a few points:

1. Your name is Hank Roth.

2. You are trying to stir up a holy war between the United States and
Islam, a strategy which I think is going to backfire badly for Israel and
Zionism in the long run.

3. You are laughably trying to package your hate campaign as "progressive,"
a tactic which will deeply annoy real progressives. I don't know any real
progressives who are obsessed with getting involved in mindless religious,
tribal or ethnic wars.

4. You handle most debate and disagreements by calling anyone who disagrees
with you an "asshole."

In your post you quoted my remark:

>: There have been literally thousands of messages like the one below posted
>: on the Usenet in Jewish-oriented newsgroups during recent years, expressing
>: vicious hatred and bigotry towards Christians, Muslims, Arabs, Americans....

The problem is, you made no effort to answer the charge, or to address the
content of the specific hate message I quoted.

Now, if I may permit myself a bit of analysis of your messaging on the
Internet: this is precisely the kind activity that has been doing
tremendous damage to the cause and image of Israel during recent years. You
present yourself as a fervent Israeli patriot, and you indulge in torrents
of verbal abuse. Is it any wonder that with so many highly conspicuous and
obnoxious supporters in cyberspace and meatspace that Israel's reputation
has declined dramatically over the last few decades?

I looked in vain to see if this "progressive" has condemned anywhere
Israel's crude terrorizing of nearly a half million Lebanese civilians, and
its slaughter of women and children.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sat Apr 27 16:59:28 PDT 1996
Article: 45288 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 16:48:15 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <31824cad.11043518@news.cybercom.net>
References: <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net> <4ls2pl$dbm@tribune.concentric.net> <3181a91f.61068886@news.cybercom.net> <4lthjs$pvj@tribune.concentric.net>
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Red_Herring@alpha.c2.org (Red Herring) wrote:

>	Read again:
>
>>Deut. 25:17: Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, 
>>when ye were come forth out of Egypt; 
>
>	The Amalekites were the agressors, just like the Nazis some 50+
>	years ago, and Hizbullies - today. 
>
>	The Torah teaches that an agression against the nation of
>	Israel must be punished.

But you used the myth of Amalek to justify the massacre of women and
children at Qana, did you not? Were these women and children "aggressors"
against Israel that deserved to be utterly exterminated and blotted out?

Since you are a Torah expert, perhaps you can also explain whether the
Torah argues that all acts of aggression against any people or nation
should be punished by extermination. Is its ethical vision universal or
particular and ethnocentric? Does it provide a foundation for articulating
a program of universal human rights, applied equitably across all nations
and peoples?

(This is a real question, by the way, not a rhetorical question or a trap.
I am eager to be instructed.)

One problem I see with this ideological system is that its foundational
myth is exterminationist: the Israelites were commanded by God to wipe out
the natives of Canaan.

Many Jewish fundamentalists in the Kahane/Goldstein/Amir school of Torah
wisdom have attempted to apply this commandment to present-day natives of
what was called Palestine. In fact, hundreds of the most flagrant hate
messages in cyberspace have vented this belief in the crudest possible
language.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Apr 28 22:27:18 PDT 1996
Article: 33520 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:34:13 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3180c277.2011922@news.cybercom.net>
References: <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net> <4lo79p$aph@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:55:34 -0400, lbunder@aol.com wrote:

>Wayne
>
>Like all groups of people there will always be those in a group who are
>ignorant and stupid, and so you will get Jews (or people who claim to be
>Jews but are really anti-semites) out there to cause trouble.
>
>Leslie

Leslie,

Have you really stopped to take a good look at the incredible volume of hate
messaging coming from Jews in soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.jewish and
talk.politics.mideast?

Why shouldn't this messaging be subjected to the same scrutiny and condemnation
as that of white racists or Islamic extremists? Why isn't the ADL and the Simon
Wiesenthal Center performing this job?

It wasn't a skinhead or an Arab terrorist who murdered the Prime Minister of the
world's only Jewish state: it was a Jewish hater who used Orthodox Judaism as
the rationale and justification for committing murder.

More than a dozen Jews on the Usenet applauded Yigal Amir's murder of Rabin, and
some of them called for the murder of Shimon Peres.

There is an immense problem developing here, and it is getting worse.

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Apr 28 22:57:50 PDT 1996
Article: 45461 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!nctuccca.edu.tw!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.quebec,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Israeli war crimminals should be brought to Justice
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:30:16 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <31823baf.6692528@news.cybercom.net>
References: <4lljml$ecc@tuba.cit.cornell.edu> <4lojaa$657@lfsserv1.fsc.ibm.com>
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fischthal@lfs.loral.com (Scott Fischthal) wrote:

>Not as I understand it.  DELIBERATELY attacking a UN compound could potentially
>be a war crime.  Missing a legitimate military target by 300 yards would not 
>be.  So, you'd have to somehow show that the attack on the civilian compound 
>was deliberate.  It's the difference between hitting somebody with a car by 
>accident and hitting them with intent.

Time magazine this week reports that Israel continued to shell civilians at
Qana AFTER the U.N. had told Israel that a massacre was underway.  Any
comments?

Furthermore, AFTER Israel slaughtered four young girls and two women in a
clearly marked ambulance, Lt. Gen Amnon Shahak defended the action, and
clearly implied that Israel would not hesitate to repeat it. Shahak has
also baldly admitted that Israel has deliberately terrorized nearly a half
million Lebanese civilians with the aim of pressuring Hezbollah. (That this
was an incredibly stupid policy, we will leave aside for moment).

Here's the info:

Many people in these newsgroups have asserted that Israel's massacre of
civilians at Qana, including many women and children, was an "accident."

Check out the article by Bruce W. Nelan in this week's Time magazine at:

http://pathfinder.com/@@@VXTaoPcRQAAQMHA/time/international/1996/960429/coverint.html

Remarks Nelan:

---BEGIN---
The shells--at least a dozen--fell on the unprotected civilians for 11
or 12 minutes while U.N. officials frantically tried to get the
Israelis to stop. Even after the official request had been made and
acknowledged by Israel, one to two minutes into the barrage, the guns
kept firing. Says U.N. spokesman Timor Goksel: "We asked Israel
several times to stop firing on the Fijian headquarters, telling them
that we had civilian victims, but in vain." 
---END---

In other words, according to Time, there is strong evidence that Israel's
massacre of civilians was cold-blooded and deliberate.

No doubt this is why the article is entitled "Israel's 'Grave Error'". The
quotes around "grave error" are intended to convey irony and even sarcasm.

The continuing propaganda blitz and lies from Israeli true believers about
what really happened are only compounding the damage of the original
massacre.

Nelan goes on to comment in Time:

---BEGIN---
The devastation was sickening, a carnage of incinerated corpses, body
parts and blood. "I couldn't count the bodies," said Swedish U.N.
Captain Mikael Lindvall at the compound right after the attack. "There
were babies without heads. There were people without arms and legs."
No one is sure precisely how many men, women and children died or even
who they were, because so many were literally blown to pieces. Even on
Saturday, two days after the attack, the number of dead was still
climbing. 
---END---

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Sun Apr 28 22:57:51 PDT 1996
Article: 45820 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.jumppoint.com!news3.ottawa.istar.net!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Hate in Cyberspace
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 12:34:13 GMT
Organization: Cyber Access Internet Services (617) 396-0491
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3180c277.2011922@news.cybercom.net>
References: <317f7678.5266165@news.cybercom.net> <4lo79p$aph@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 11:55:34 -0400, lbunder@aol.com wrote:

>Wayne
>
>Like all groups of people there will always be those in a group who are
>ignorant and stupid, and so you will get Jews (or people who claim to be
>Jews but are really anti-semites) out there to cause trouble.
>
>Leslie

Leslie,

Have you really stopped to take a good look at the incredible volume of hate
messaging coming from Jews in soc.culture.israel, soc.culture.jewish and
talk.politics.mideast?

Why shouldn't this messaging be subjected to the same scrutiny and condemnation
as that of white racists or Islamic extremists? Why isn't the ADL and the Simon
Wiesenthal Center performing this job?

It wasn't a skinhead or an Arab terrorist who murdered the Prime Minister of the
world's only Jewish state: it was a Jewish hater who used Orthodox Judaism as
the rationale and justification for committing murder.

More than a dozen Jews on the Usenet applauded Yigal Amir's murder of Rabin, and
some of them called for the murder of Shimon Peres.

There is an immense problem developing here, and it is getting worse.

Wayne
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

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