The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From aaron.g@ix.netcom.com Thu Dec  7 15:54:20 PST 1995
Article: 15353 of alt.revisionism
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From: aaron.g@ix.netcom.com (Aaron D. Gross )
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McGuire's scatalogical bent (was: Aaron D. Gross, Steve Jones, and Orthodox Judaism)
Date: 7 Dec 1995 15:18:12 GMT
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In <4a3i3m$q8i@bird3.i-link.net> sjones@i-link.net (Steve Jones)
writes: 
[deletia interspersed throughout the following]


You took so many words out of my mouth, I'm surprised I have any
teeth left!  ;-)

I am in awe of your post.  Like my prior "definitive" posts
regarding WM, my guess is that he will ignore it altogether,
because he cannot defend himself against the charges.

I am curious what the volume and frequency of WM's posts were
on s.c.i for 12/5, Boston-time.  The man spends all day, it 
seems.  Hardly an argument that he is dispassionate on these
subjects!


Per a few items in your message, I thought you'd like to know: 
>MCGUIRE:
>>Poor Steve Jones (apparently he is the author here) is being pulled
>>deeply into Aaron D. Gross's doodoo.

Scan the Internet for a year to determine if there is anyone
I have called an antisemite other than McGuire and Ben Johnson.
WM's charges that I do so at the drop of a hat are unsupportable.
That he seems to have the archives and scanners to do so and
doesn't means that this, like so many others of his arguments,
is just so much hot petard.

As a 13th-generation Mayflower descendent who is proud of his
heritage on both sides of his family, I have no interest in
vilifying my ancestors, nor their co-religionists, though I
do disagree with their scriptural interpretations, and the
behavior of some of their co-religionists.  To me, it is what 
one does rather than what one says that matters.  If racists 
acted like non-racists, that would be fine and admirable.
However, when someone loudly protests his non-racism
and posts hundreds of K per week in a conference, that is 
readily suspect.  Moreover, the fact that someone refuses to
even define the term racist or antisemite raises huge red
flags for me.  

I am an ardent fan of libertarian-icon Ayn Rand's book, 
"Philosophy, Who Needs It?"  Though I reject many of her anti-
religious arguments, her logical processes are invaluable.  
She exhorts that people should be neither open nor closed 
minded, but active minded.  We should choose a philosophy, 
define it precisely and test its mettle constantly.  That I 
read her book as an influence toward becoming Jewishly 
observant has always been a source of pride for me.

Wayne, in refusing to define "mission-critical" terms 
for Jewish- and Israel-focused newsgroups publicly, is shrouding
his agenda in an air of plausible deniability.  An honest debater
agrees on terms with his opponent before initiating discourse.
You can't play a reasonable game of chess if your opponent
doesn't agree with you on how the pieces are allowed to move.
Or if, in the middle of the game, he dumps additional pieces
on the board when he perceives he is losing, one must conclude
that the truth of the game is not the goal, but a personal
need to win at all costs.

Wayne categorically--and at this point I would have to conclude,
pathologically--refuses to define antisemitism.  


>>Gross is a notorious and congenital liar.
>>
>That well may be, but  I've heard no one express those feelings about
>Aaron except McGuire. On the other hand, this newsgroup has been
>peppered of late with a seeming plethora of folks who have literally
>risen out of McGuire's electronic past over the last 6-10 years with
>detailed and reasonably documented allegations of his lies. Question, 
>Wayne:  why would you use the word "congenital" about Aaron? have you
>known him since birth? are you qualified to pass judgment that far
>back?  can you spell "hyperbole", or smell the perfume of your own
>rhetoric?

Hmmm.... as I was born in Boston, he MIGHT have known me since
birth.  I'll ask my Dad if he met him in Cambridge.  (My father
was an undergrad at MIT when I was born.) ;-)

Wayne would be hard-pressed to find 3 people online who have 
ever called me a liar.  A pain-in-the-arse, maybe, but not a 
liar.  Moreover, those who might have (it has been nearly 4 
years), I seem to recall as having pretty transparent agendas of 
their own.  Being called a liar by the likes of Wayne doesn't 
cause me any grief any more than being called a racist by 
Johnnie Cochran.  Neither is a credible reference.  The hyperbolic
use of "notorious" is a typical McGuire tactic, completely
contradicting the lack of evidence to support such a claim.
Didn't you ever hear about the famous hermit no one knew about?


>>Two examples above: I supported some Buchanan policies (namely the
>>anti-imperialist ones), and strongly disagreed with other Buchanan
>>policies (namely all the authoritarian ones). I've posted many
>>hundreds of messages criticizing Christian and Muslim fundamentalism.
>>Gross knows all this this, but he chooses to lie shamelessly.

Hmmmm...  Is Charles Power out there reading this?  Can you confirm
that all of Wayne's criticism of Christianity, Islam, Nazism, and
Communism ultimately came back to Wayne's conclusions regarding
their point of origin, namely Judaism?  Do you remember the glee
over the Buchananisms over the Congress being "Israeli-occupied
territory", and the like?

Would you characterize the general impression of me on RIME as
that of a "shameless liar"?  Or is this yet another famous
McGuire "smear tactic"?


>I wouldn't for a moment accuse Wayne of lying about posting "hundreds
>of messages criticizing Christian and Muslim fundamentalism", but I'll
>just say I've not found one of them, in this newsgroup or any others
>(I only go back about two months.) Simple fairness and objective
>honesty compels me to observe that McGuire's posts are rigidly focused
>on one obsessive wave-length:  Aaron calls it anti-semitism, Lane
>Singer calls it racism, I'll try to avoid passing judgment for a while
>longer, but the smell is getting worse, McGuire. I'm not one of your
>ancient enemies, I'm new meat for you, and I'm willing to listen
>respectfully if you have a point to make, but for goodness sakes,
>Portnoy, get a grip on something else, will ya?  It's becoming obvious
>that you're just jerking off on this "one-trick pony" issue of yours,
>and you're committing the most heinous offense of all -- that of
>boring your audience to tears.   

Martin Luther King said that anti-Zionism is antisemitism, plain
and simple.  Again, why the link to the "Dark Web Pages of Zionizm"
on Wayne's home page... the only link to anything of explicit 
opinion.  Everything else on Wayne's personal home page seems to be
pointed at something he can scan, a meta-index, or news sources.
Remember, he had to physically enter the URL.  This is not some
simple scanner error.


>>Another example: Gross once claimed that Amnesty International had
>>singled out Egypt as being the worst offender of human rights in the
>>Middle East. I exposed Gross's lie by contacting Amnesty
>>International directly and setting the record straight.
>>
>What would have been instructive here, instead of pillorying poor
>Aaron again, would have been to tell us exactly WHO the worst offender
>of human rights is in the Middle East, according to A.I., or even
>according to you. You seem to imply by omission that it might be
>Israel, and I wouldn't believe that for a minute, no evidence to the
>contrary.

Hmmm...  Charles?  You still there?  Do you remember that I got 
this report from an article in the short-lived magazine New 
Dimensions, which was a right-of-center magazine featuring 
reprints of columns by Buckley, Will, and the like?  Do you
recall that I acknowledged the article's mistake?

A ranking from top to bottom of all nations by AI would be 
informative.  I think Israel would probably be somewhere in 
the top third, and improving.  Still room for lots of improvement.
But it was in my lifetime, nearly 180 years after it was born,
that blacks finally got to vote, unimpeded, in the US.  It took 
nearly 150 years for women to get to vote.  I have confidence
in Israel's ability to improve.

A Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst of all forms of 
government... except for all the others."

For someone who is so outspoken on American interests and in 
tune with the rising swell of Americans who are sick and tired 
and aren't going to take it any more, Wayne's missives are 
closer to the growing, heavily-armed, racist, anti-government 
militias than to the American mainstream.  Who is the columnist
most reprinted in their literature?  Buchanan.

And as far as "setting the record straight" is concerned, can
ANYONE explain why, for 6 years, Wayne categorically refuses
to define antisemitism.  Doesn't it make you just a LITTLE
suspicious????


>>Another example: Gross once tried to censor me on a computer 
>>network by deliberately and malicious misquoting one of my 
>>messages to make it appear that I described all of Judaism 
>>as being "virulently racist." The excised material, which he 
>>failed to indicate with an ellipsis, made it clear that I was
>>referring specifically to Rabbi Meir Kahane's brand of Judaism, 
>>not Judaism in general.

The only person who seemed to consistantly take Wayne's side 
during that debate was Derek Shabazz, who is an outspoken
supporter of Louis Farrakhan.  Hmmmmmm....

Charles, do you remember that, too?  Whereas I had dropped 
the ellipsis in one of the messages, all the others were 
unchallengable.

I also recall hearing about a lunch date Wayne was supposed to
have in 1990 or 1990 with the moderator of RIME's RELIGION 
conference, Boston resident Gerry Power (no relation to 
Charles), who said that it was inexplicably cancelled.  I 
remember clearly speaking with him by phone with our 
humorous portrayal of Wayne as the Stephen Hawking of 
antisemitism.  We envisioned him surrounded by his computer 
equipment and scanners, a shut-in with no personal life or 
anyone to vouch for having actually met the man or to verify
if he is working under a nom-de-plume, and whose personal
insecurities and instabilities are manifested frequently online.  
Gerry recalled to me that he had once seen Wayne's home phone 
number on the now-defunct Boston OUTLAND BBS.  He recalled 
that Wayne was audibly agitated that anyone knew how to 
reach him and quickly found an excuse to hang up the phone.

I recall that time and again Wayne violated RIMEs rules
and went ballistic every time I had the temerity to suggest
to RIME's management that the rules be enforced.  (I would
quote many of RIME's rules accompanied by examples of where
Wayne had violeted them.)  RIME had moderated conferences,
which seemed to get Wayne in a frenzy.  Frequently, after being
repeately warned, you would vanish for a few months and return
after having been on USENET for a while, and then go on and on
about the superiority of the Internet.  There were numerous
times where Wayne literally BEGGED Bonnie (I forget her last 
name), RIME's head, to be a conference moderator.


>  wow, it's hard to stay awake in the midst of these
>earth-shaking revelations.
>>On every policy issue Gross and I debated, Gross lost in the real
>>world--Israel, no doubt to his immense dismay, subsequently adopted
>>every policy regarding compromise with Palestinian nationalism that I
>>had been advocating since the mid-eighties.
>>
>Who says that Gross lost every debate?  Would he acknowledge that you
>soundly thrashed him in the arena of public discourse? Was there a
>vote taken at the time and, if so, to where have your supporters fled?
>I certainly see no signs of them here or lately.

Hmmmm...  I recall that my posts were still quoted as authoritative
in RIME's RELIGION conference years after I left, most notably
the primary scriptural reasons why Jews don't believe in Jesus.

Does anyone here POSSIBLY imagine that Wayne bested me on "every
policyt issue"?  Does that seem remotely credible to anyone on
USENET?


>>Gross's main problem is that he wants to leave many hundreds of
>>messages pushing his inflammatory right-wing views on Orthodox
>>Judaism, religion in general, and Israeli politics, but he wants 
>>to suppress any critical response to his views. He has the 
>>mentality of a dictator. Anyone who disagrees with him he tries 
>>to smear as an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew. This is a familiar
>>phenomenon, of course, to anyone who has followed the great Mideast
>>debates in recent years. There are hundreds of Aaron D. Gross's out
>>there who
 are highly excitable but short on the ability to engage 
>>in rational discussion.
>
>My problem: I just haven't SEEN Aaron leaving "many hundreds of
>messages" pushing anything REMOTELY resembling inflammatory right-wing
>views on Orthodox Judaism, religion in general, or Israeli politics.
>However, I did see Aaron post a very seemingly honest and
>self-revealing "position paper" describing himself (see post entitled
>"The question Wayne McGuire Still Won't Answer -- what it
>Anti-semitism?" from Nov 19. Truth is, Wayne, no one has come back on
>Aaron accusing him of falsehood in that post and, in effect, saying
>they knew him for someone else. HOWEVER -- I've read SEVERAL people
>who have de-lurked recently with information to challenge your
>assertions of what happened in past exchanges. Again, as a newcomer,
>I'd have to give Aaron credit -- not you -- for honesty and the
>willingness to engage in fair and rational discussion.

Couldn't have said it better, myself.

Anyone out there recall my calling them an anti-Semite or 
self-hating Jew?!?!?  Helloooooooooooo?!??  Anyone?

The silence is deafening, except for my laughter at such a
desperate ploy.


>>Aaron D. Gross will quickly reveal his true colors on the Usenet, I 
>>have >no doubt, and will have great difficulty finding anyone willing
>>to give >him the time of day. Of all the folks I've encountered in
>>cyberspace who have been excited about the Middle East, Gross ranks
>>in the bottom 10% along with Murray Kahl, Isaac Balbin, Red Herring
>>and others of this ilk for quality of thought. If you want to
>>associate yours
elf with this crowd, be my guest.
>>
>Help me out here, folks. Is it just me, or is Wayne really describing
>himself and putting Aaron's name to it. In the short time I've been
>reading this group, MCGUIRE is the one who has shown me what looks
>like "true colors".  MCGUIRE is one of the few here to whom more and
>more people are becoming unwilling to give the time of day to. MCGUIRE
>is the one who is excited about Middle East politics (I'd say Aaron's
>hot buttons appear to be  anti-semitism, dishonesty, and Wayne's
>hidden motives). 

You got a hat-trick, there!

>I believe Wayne's last sentence is directed specifically at me, as to
>which crowd I want to be associated with. I don't associate myself
>with crowds (unless the crowd is young, nubile and distaff), but have
>no problem keeping intellectual company with like-minded people. I'll
>also keep company with FAIR-minded people with whom I otherwise
>disagree. As of this writing, I'm happy to associate myself with Aaron
>D. Gross, believing that on a range of issues we might agree some,
>disagree some, but wouldn't find it necessary to throw our feces at
>one another, an image that McGuire seemed to find some excitement
>with, although he euphemised it into the contextual language of the
>developmental period at which he no doubt became fixated, and called
>it "doo-doo". [Don't play with it Wayne, just flush it ! myself up, here.>]


>>Gross is a tremendous embarrassment to Orthodox Judaism. Ask him
>>about his views, for instance, on homosexuality, and from whence he
>>derives them. If he has forgotten what he has said on these and other
>>issues, I 
will be happy to remind him by quoting back his own >>messages.

Wow.  I never thought my messages for 6 years would be so important
to Wayne.  (Does his claim to retain years of email "evidence" 
support ANY of my hints that Wayne is a raving paranoid?)  I think 
if Wayne would be willing to ask Judy Stein, my direct correspondent 
on RIME's RELIGION conference on the topic of homosezuality, I think
you will be amazed at how off-base he is in his conclusions.  (Again,
Charles, you can probably verify this.)  Also, if it is possible,
you can ask David Konigsberg and Mike Batchelor (the latter is an
outspoken homosexual), with whom I had the pleasure of going out
for beer at a local microbrewery.  (Small world!  It turns out that
David's wife had directed my wife in a college production of the
Mikado!  We had been emailing each other for months unaware of our
wives having known each other already!)

My discussion with Judy was regarding the scriptural untenebility of
homosexuality.  I don't hate homosezuals.  Nor would any homosexual
I have ever met characterize me as such.  If one looks up any of
Dennis Prager's articles in his journal Ultimate Issues on the
subject, that is a close fit to my position.  Wayne should recall
that I quoted Prager often.  (In fact, I used to play softball with
him and even appeared on two of his television shows!  I am sure
that Wayne's VCRs probably captured that, too.)

I am sure that Wayne has also conveniently forgotten my debates
with fundamentalists of all types regarding the scriptural 
untenability of equating abortion with murder, too.

One thing for certain... the range and breadth of subjects on which 
I participate online far exceeds that of Mr. "One-Trick-Pony."


>I have a feeling that McGuire is a tremendous embarassment as well to
>some group, but he reveals so little of himself it's hard to
>ennumerate  which group(s)  might be embarassed by him.  As opposed to
>Aaron's views on homosexuality, 
>I'd much rather know McGuire's views on ANYTHING save for the
>one-track, supremely boring rut he's into.  This newsgroup is so rich
>with topics relating to Jewish culture -- it would be refreshing to
>open one of McGuire's posts and read (a) anything positive, (b)
>anything besides Jewish right-wing fundamentalist bashing.

Perhaps it is time to determine what are the criteria for being
canonized in net.loonies, or whereever it is that the Kibos and
lesser-lights and net-whackos are forever enshrined, and see if 
Wayne merits that truly-earned credential.


>>It's unfortunate that moderate proponents of Orthodox Judaism 
>>haven't been more visible in cyberspace to counteract the negative
>>impressions being created by bigots and haters who claim to be
>>speaking for Judaism and all Jews in general.
>          
>One of the main things I've gotten out of this newsgroup so far is
>that no sane person here claims to speak for Judaism or all Jews in
>general -- certainly Aaron hasn't left that impression. It's precisely
>this inflammatory rhetoric that makes McGuire so suspect with me.  

Oh, crud.  My supply of business cards ran out.  They look like:

                          Aaron D. Gross

                             Official
                    Speaker for Judaism and Jews,
                    The Israeli Lobby, Kahanists, 
                          Bigots, Haters, 
                               and
                         Congenital Liars

                          1-800-UH8-JEWS

;-}

Again, I think Wayne would be hard-pressed to find ten rational
people who agree with him.


By the way, the "gang of 12" names that Wayne says represent
Orthodox Jews who supported the Rabin assassination include
a Moslem!  Another is Israel Tekhelet, known scj-whacko.  More 
details on the 12 will come out in due time.  If McGuire's
research and loud assertions are so shoddy, so should we 
be leery about his conclusions.


>>As for Steve Jones, precisely who are you, where are you coming from,
>>and what knowledge do you have to share with us about Mideast
>>politics?
>>
>>What's your politico-religious agenda? Please be specific. Don't 
>>be shy.
>>
>>Who are your five favorite authors on Mideast politics? What
>>particular books, articles or issues are you prepared to discuss
>>intelligently? 
>
>Good grief, Charly Brown!!  I actually had a couple of people warn me
>that McGuire would come at me this way == they were uncannily
>accurate.   Let's keep this dry and low-key, and do it by the
>numbers:
>1.  I won't know PRECISELY who I am until G-d gives me the rundown,
>but what knowledge I have as to who I might be I'd gladly  trade --
>not unilaterally divulge -- with Mcguire for the curiosity of knowing
>the same things about him. I've had folks tell me that Wayne is one of
>the most secretive people on Usenet, and after years of posting he's
>never defined PRECISELY who he is to anybody. I'm willing to start a
>dialogue if he is.

You've got as good a shot as Charlie does of kicking that football.
"Lucy" McGuire will taunt you time and again.

Oh, Luuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucy?


>2.  Why does McGuire  immediately start quizzing me on
>Mideast Politics? That wasn't the thread topic.
>If  I feel like sharing knowledge (or opinion)  with the group on
>Mideast Politics, I'll do so. This thread had to do with Aaron's
>allegation of anti-semitism against McGuire. That's what I responded
>to and commented on  -- a psychological analysis of McGuire's posts
>and what they might reveal to a clinical practicioner. I never said
>one word about Mideast Politics -- that's McGuire's bugaboo. 

I have no qualms whatsoever with a neutral party being able to
ascertain my personal and psychological profile.  Compared to
McGuire's suspicious reticence to share anything personal, my
life is an open book.  


>3.  "Politico-religious agenda"???  What the hell kind of question is
>that? I make comments on McGuire's rhetorical style and possible
>hidden motives, and I have to have an agenda?  Sorry to disappoint, I
>have no agenda, other than to learn, to have fun, and make a
>contribution.  Oh, and BTW, I'm never shy.......also never
>intellectually dishonest, usually kind, and am not into smelling my
>own flatulence and calling it violets.

ROTFL.


>>So far you are simply ranting and spewing, without providing a single
>>fact or a stab at useful analysis.
>>
>4.  Spewing, perhaps.  Ranting, never -- I'm too funny for that.  I
>believe that for anyone who has studied psychology, I provided
>numerous facts to support multiple stabs at a useful analysis of the
>posts of one Wayne McGuire. Such was my intent -- I believe I
>succeeded in a fair-minded, humorous, and light-hearted way -- even
>ending up with a "prayer"  for McGuire's redemption . 
> 
>Aw c'mon Wayne -- we know you've gotta be human somewhere down below
>all those crusts and scabs. Do you like kittens or puppies? Do you
>call your mother "Mom"?  Was there a little red-haired girl in your
>childhood who used to pull the football away just before you kicked
>it?  Do you remember a joke -- any joke -- you could tell us??  
>
>How about a game of flag football, or darts?  I get up to Boston with
>some frequency. I'll bet you're a nice guy after a couple of beers --
>hell, I am.   Here's to 'ya   

That you want to see Wayne in public means he must be cautious of
your malevolent intent and secret agenda.

Hey, Wayne...  BOO!


From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Dec  7 22:39:13 PST 1995
Article: 66973 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 00:41:52 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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References: <49soaf$98m@orion.cybercom.net> <1995Dec4.013307.10386@cs.rit.edu> <49uvjm$lqb@panix2.panix.com> <1995Dec5.120633.28425@cs.rit.edu> <4a1r01$el3@orion.cybercom.net> 
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Xander  wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Wayne McGuire wrote:

>> Unless the left and the government start to answer all these questions
>> with great force and candor, they are going to suffer enormous political
>> damage. The campaign against the religious right has already come to a
>> dead halt, while everyone waits anxiously for answers to the legitimate
>> questions that have been raised.

>Well, well Wayne I am impressed. Someone is actually able to think a 
>little. You and I might come from opposite ends and you probably still 
>have a problem with those of us that are not too unhappy that Rabin is 
>not around, but at least you are honest enough to ask questions. And 
>there are many, many unanswered questions. But I do not think that these 
>questions will all be answered, and how will we know that the answers 
>provided will be the truth.

I've got to be totally honest with you: I was totally appalled by the
remarks you made about the Rabin assassination.

And I have strong disagreements with the religious Zionist camp in
Israeli political life.

But I am more a truth-seeker than an ideologue, and there is no way I am
going to check my intelligence at the door when it comes examining the
many weird anomalies surrounding the assassination.

At first I suspected that a conspiracy might have originated on the
right. Now I am not so sure. The eagerness with which the left seems to
want to bury any investigation into a GSS conspiracy angle on the
assassination is really alarming to me. They are quickly losing me, and
I hope they act soon to answer effectively all the legitimate questions.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Thu Dec  7 22:39:16 PST 1995
Article: 67008 of talk.politics.mideast
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lane Singer's Hatred of Religion
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 05:21:15 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>: lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>: >                                                                     i pretty much 
>: >despise all religious cults equally....
>: >the more religions disappear from the face of the earth, the
>: >better in mine.

>: Note that Lane Singer, who claims to possess a "higher consciousness" in
>: terms of his wisdom, compassion and tolerance, hates all religions and
>: wants them to "disappear from the face of the earth." He is a virulent
>: anti-religious bigot.

>First of all, Wayne, take the blinders off. Lane is female.

I have known a number of male Lane's in my life. Lane could have
corrected my gender error at any time. Thanks for taking the trouble to
set me straight.

But what does Lane Singer's gender have to do with the fact that she has
expressed hateful attitudes towards all religions that are reminiscent
of the Nazis and Communists? She sounds exactly like Goebbels, Lenin and
Stalin on the subject of religion.

How can such a person attempt to pass herself off as an examplar of
compassion and tolerance, who is lightyears beyond the rest of us in
moral development?

These anti-religious fanatics tend be much more murderous than religious
fanatics. Check out the statistics on 20th century democide for the
horrifying facts. The anti-religionists have committed much more mayhem
than the religionists in this century.

By the way, are you also a female? I don't want to mischaracterize your
gender, and Jody can be either a male or female name.

"that i'm light-years beyond you in consciousness is beyond your ken."
--Lane Singer

"i pretty much despise all religious cults equally.... the more
religions disappear from the face of the earth, the better in mine."
--Lane Singer

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 07:10:13 PST 1995
Article: 21687 of alt.conspiracy
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Jody Eisenman's Knowledge of Jewish Affairs
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 05:52:14 GMT
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>: In other words, if one disagrees with both right-wing religious
>: authoritarianism and left-wing socialist authoritarianism in Israel, one
>: must necessarily "despise" ALL Zionists. These are the only two types of
>: Zionist that exist in Israel, according to you and Lane Singer.

Your analysis of Israeli politics that follows is poorly informed and
off the wall.

I would point to the vision presented in Shimon Peres' recent book as an
example of how a powerful and influential sector of contemporary
Zionists is trying to move beyond the old authoritarian attitudes of the
religious right and the socialist left. Peres is trying to redefine and
restructure Zionism, and bring it into the libertarian 21st century.

You and Lane Singer haven't given the least indication that you are
familiar with the debates that are going on in the Jewish world about
the nature and future of Zionism. You simply haven't made the effort to
read the journals and books in which this fascinating and momentous
debate is being undertaken.

One quickly learns in reading these newsgroups that the simple
declaration that one is a Jew doesn't automatically make one an expert
on Jewish affairs. One finds similar ignorance among many Christians and
Muslims about the state of the art in policy and philosophical debates
within their respective communities.

And this is an ironclad law: the greater the ignorance, the more the
ranting and raving. You can set your watch by it.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From jake@tasc.com Fri Dec  8 14:16:11 PST 1995
Article: 25044 of soc.culture.israel
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From: jake@babar.read.tasc.com (Jacob D. Goldstein)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jewish Support for the Rabin Assassination
Date: 01 Dec 1995 21:41:40 GMT
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In article <49ld9p$j75@orion.cybercom.net> wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:

> You are going to have to learn a difficult lesson, Singer: we non-Jews
> out here who are deeply implicated in whatever policies Israel pursues
> are going to be able to choose to side with whatever groups of Jews most
> closely mirror our own values, and to reject those groups of Jews whose
> views we find odious.

I'm curious, how are you "deeply implicated in whatever policies
Israel pursues"?
					-- Jake --

--
************************************************************
Jacob D. Goldstein
jake@tasc.com                    TASC
Voice: (617)942-2000             55 Walkers Brook Drive
  Fax: (617)942-9507             Reading, MA 01867 


From avi_jaco@netvision.net.il Fri Dec  8 14:16:12 PST 1995
Article: 25046 of soc.culture.israel
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From: Avi Jacobson 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Stein's Dishonest Sophistry
Date: 1 Dec 1995 18:28:39 GMT
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wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

>wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

[snip]

>Let me correct this: the last name is Klein Halevi, not Halevi. The cite
>should read
>
>[1] Klein Halevi, Yossi. Memoirs of a Jewish Extremist: An American
>Story. Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1995.
>
>Can any linguistic experts here on explain this kind of construction in
>Hebrew (?) surnames?

Sure, Wayne.  

(For those of you who know Halacha better than I do, I am aware that the 
following is a simplification.  You are welcome to add or correct as you 
see fit, of course.  I have consciously chosen to explain this as 
succinctly as possible at the expense of detail.)

Since Temple times, Jews have been divided into three orders or positions 
vis-a-vis their role in the administration of the Temple.  These three 
orders are called Israel, Levi, and Cohen.  Membership in these orders is 
passed down by the father, unlike Jewishness itself, which is passed down 
by the mother.  Since the destruction of the Temple, the differences 
between the three orders have been largely ritual in nature.  There are a 
few Halachic constraints which limit Cohens (the order of Temple priests) 
to this day, including an injunction against marrying divorced women and 
various injunctions concerning their contact with the dead.

It is common to find a name such as Yosef Ben Yitzhak Ha-Cohen (Yosef, 
Son of Yitzhak, the Cohen [Priest]), or Yaacov Schwarz Ho-Cohen (Yaacov 
Schwarz, the Cohen), or Yossi Klein Halevi (or Ha-Levi) (Yossi Klein, the 
Levi).

The Levis (they are sometimes called "Levites" in English) are the 
descendants of Jacob's soni Levi, and were the assistants to the Priests 
in the Temple.

The other possibility, of course, is that it is a European-style 
hyphenated name attesting to someone's mother's maiden name.

Hope this helps.


-- 
Avi Jacobson, Audio Lingual Consultant      | When an idea is wanting,
Tel Aviv, Israel                            | a word can always be
                                            | found to take its place.
email: avi_jaco@netvision.net.il            |     -- Goethe




From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:13 PST 1995
Article: 25057 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 14:13:00 GMT
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wolf mosheh haim  wrote:

>And I thought that Josh was paranoid....  
>Wayne, do you EVER have an imagination. You know, you should exploit it 
>and make movies, instead of wasting your time filling the net with your 
>paranoic speculations...
>Mosheh

You don't address any of the troubling circumstances around the
assassination that are giving rise to the conspiracy theories.

Yesterday the Jerusalem Post (on the Web) reported that eyewitnesses
observed that Avishai Raviv, the Shin Bet agent, knew that Yigal Amir
was the assassin before that information had been released to the
public. How do you explain this? If the Jerusalem Post is right, how did
Raviv know the identity of the assassin? Telepathy?

Why was Raviv allowed to approach Rabin at point-blank range? Is any
national security service on the planet that incompetent?

Why has a heavy wall of censorship been placed over the investigation of
the assassination?

Why is no one from the left here coming forward to rebut rationally all
the questions being raised? Why all of a sudden the thundering silence?

Something feels decidedly wrong.

We don't know for certain that there was a conspiracy within the GSS,
but there is already enough disturbing information on the table to keep
the questions coming hot and heavy.

Until the questions are answered in a satisfactory fashion, the
religious right has been given a reprieve.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:14 PST 1995
Article: 25066 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I don't debate scanners
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 17:58:07 GMT
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>>Wayne McGuire  wrote:

>>I pointed out that four major books by Jews have appeared
>>during the last year or two strongly criticizing the cult-like
>>overemphasis on the Holocaust in Jewish life,

>    If you had really read my writings in detail, you would see that I 
>have tried to put the Holocaust in a more objective perspective.

I would be greatly interested in reading your commentary on any of those
four books. Collectively, of course, the analysis and judgements of
Segev, Goldberg, Reich and Klein are pretty impressive and convincing.

Treated in the wrong way--as a device to exacerbate apocalyptic conflict
between Jews and the world, rather than diminish it--the uses of the
Holocaust can be truly disastrous. Klein is especially convincing on
this issue, because at one time he himself was given over to the worst
excesses of the Holocaust cult. That he was able to change his attitudes
and grow as a human being is a tribute to his basic intelligence and
decency.

>>Aren't your priorities misplaced?
>>
>>Hasn't the long-winded debate between two camps of village
>>idiots--flat-earthers and anti-flat-earthers (Holocaust deniers and
>>anti-Holocaust deniers)--profoundly missed the most consequential and
>>dangerous contemporary trends for Jews, especially Jewish and Muslim
>>fundamentalism?

>    I agree that it is more dangerous.

Let's focus on some of our points of agreement. Fine, we agree.

> However, such fundamentalism is
>even more irrational in nature than Holocaust denial.  My problem is that
>I can at least cope with deniers on the level of facts and evidence, and
>persuade people who can be persuaded by such things.  I haven't a clue as
>to how to debate "orders from Above."  I'm genuinely open to suggestions. 

We agree again. "Debating" fundamentalists is like bashing one's head
bloody against a stone wall. They are not reachable through facts or
reason.

It is possible, however, to exert pressure on reasonable people to make
an effort to censor and control the fundamentalists in their midst.
Moderate Jews, for instance, have raised these issues in regard to
Christian and Islamic fundamentalists, and this is right and proper.

>    I weighed in briefly on the side of Meadors and Ennes about the
>_Liberty_ incident, telling some of their attackers that they were
>behaving just like Holocaust deniers with smears and unsubstantiated
>assertions.  Again, that was something I could cope with - facts and logic
>which might persuade those open to such things.

Again, virtuous behavior on your part (no irony here). The best way to
handle the Liberty incident is simply to investigate it, let the chips
fall where they may, and be done with it. The worst-case scenario one
could imagine would not particularly damage U.S.-Israeli relations in
1995, in my opinion. It's ancient history.

>>The damage that Yigal Amir did to Jews vastly exceeds anything the
>>Holocaust deniers could have pulled off.

>    Agreed, and I rather suspect you don't even realize the half of the 
>damage that Amir did.

And we agree yet again. I'm not sure what damage he did that exceeds my
understanding, but it may well exist. The repercussions of an act like
he committed are difficult to predict--the sky is the limit. Certainly a
civil war in Israel is one possible outcome. What such a civil war could
do to Jewish interests globally and to the image of Judaism, one can
only speculate. The destructive effects could be substantial.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:16 PST 1995
Article: 25085 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jewish Support for the Rabin Assassination
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 03:34:17 GMT
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lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>:Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:

>: Ah, we catch you red-handed in your dishonest ways.

>you lie.

>: In that thread,
>: which appeared just a few days ago, I defended the right of Jews for
>: Jesus to express its views in the free marketplace of ideas.

>you went beyond that. you waxed poetic about the wonderful
>blending of religions, etc. it was nauseating. all so you could
>self-righteously chastise a woman who had made the reasonable
>statement that she objected to the name of her religion being
>co-opted by evangelical christians. you're such a bloody hypocrite.

Singer--please drop the pretense of an Olympian indifference to
religion. Your style betrays you, and you are not believable.

Clearly Jews for Jesus get deeply under your skin and drive you into an
overpowering rage. Your true zealous colors are shining though in your
stream of nasty verbal abuse. Jews for Jesus push your buttons big time.

Religions, sects and cults can call themselves whatever names they
choose. They can preach whatever they want, wherever they want, at least
in a libertarian society like the United States. Perhaps you would like
Israel to play by different rules than the democratic West.

The more that religions interact, fuse and merge, and dispense with the
need for a rigid doctrinal purity, the better in my opinion.

For you to characterize these opinions as racist in nature reveals just
how far off the deep end you've gone. Your blithering besotted tribalism
is screeching from your posts. What in the world does RACISM have to do
with a commitment to religious tolerance and free speech?

I challenge you to quote any words I have written which support the
theology of Jews for Jesus. Once your paranoia cools down, and you
review those exchanges, you'll realize how profound your misreading has
been. In fact, I characterized Jews for Jesus as annoying and
infuriating.

I've also strongly and repeatedly defended the right of Kahanists to
speak out politically in Israel and the U.S. (a position which few of
the leftists in these newsgroups have supported). Presumably in your
warped mind supporting the right of Kahanists to express themselves
within legal channels makes one a Kahanist.

Do you have anything whatever of value to contribute to an ANALYSIS of
current events in Israel and the Mideast? So far I haven't seen the
least sign that you've read any of the important recent books on the
subject, or that you possess any original ideas or insights. Like far
too many Usenet denizens, you just let off steam.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:17 PST 1995
Article: 25090 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Michael Stein's Dishonest Sophistry
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 18:09:38 GMT
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>Since Temple times, Jews have been divided into three orders or positions 
>vis-a-vis their role in the administration of the Temple.  These three 
>orders are called Israel, Levi, and Cohen.  Membership in these orders is 
>passed down by the father, unlike Jewishness itself, which is passed down 
>by the mother.  Since the destruction of the Temple, the differences 
>between the three orders have been largely ritual in nature.  There are a 
>few Halachic constraints which limit Cohens (the order of Temple priests) 
>to this day, including an injunction against marrying divorced women and 
>various injunctions concerning their contact with the dead.

>It is common to find a name such as Yosef Ben Yitzhak Ha-Cohen (Yosef, 
>Son of Yitzhak, the Cohen [Priest]), or Yaacov Schwarz Ho-Cohen (Yaacov 
>Schwarz, the Cohen), or Yossi Klein Halevi (or Ha-Levi) (Yossi Klein, the 
>Levi).

>The Levis (they are sometimes called "Levites" in English) are the 
>descendants of Jacob's soni Levi, and were the assistants to the Priests 
>in the Temple.

>The other possibility, of course, is that it is a European-style 
>hyphenated name attesting to someone's mother's maiden name.

>Hope this helps.

Thanks much, Avi. This is exactly the background on the name I was
wondering about--the cultural semantics.

I would guess, then, that using "Halevi" would be in part a matter of
pride (albeit not in the negative sense), of associating oneself, as it
were, with an aristocracy within an aristocracy, a priesthood within a
priesthood.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:19 PST 1995
Article: 25107 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Sat, 02 Dec 1995 20:12:15 GMT
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dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) wrote:

>There are as many Muslim extremists here in tpm as there are Jewish
>ones, maybe more.

Did a Jewish fundamentalist or a Muslim fundamentalist murder the head
of the only Jewish state in the world?

Have more than a dozen Muslim fundamentalists expressed support for the
assassination of Rabin on the Usenet, or was it instead more than a
dozen Jewish fundamentalists who voiced that sentiment?

Which brand of fundamentalism represents the greater threat to
Israel--Jewish or Muslim?

What represents a greater danger to Israel--suicide bombings by Muslim
fundamentalists or a civil war triggered by Jewish fundamentalists?

(Forget the sterile debate about the semantics of the term
"fundamentalist"--use the word "extremist" instead if you wish, or
whatever term floats your boat.)

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:21 PST 1995
Article: 25118 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 04:05:07 GMT
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bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan McKay) wrote:

>>Is the political right in Israel dumb enough to make up and disseminate
>>these stories knowing that they are false? If the stories are proven
>>false, the anger against the right will only be redoubled and increased,
>>after the temporary reprieve of confusion about culpability in the
>>assassination.

>Not "dumb enough", rather "smart enough".  Once the seeds of suspicion
>have been sown, it takes more than a little weed-killer to get rid
>of them.  This is especially true in this case, because the "disproof"
>is going to come from the party under suspicion, and so will be
>easily dismissed as cover-up.

All Israel needs to do is to produce the bodyguards at the site of the
assassination, and the matter will be quickly laid to rest--and with the
result that the right will be in even deeper doodoo than it was before
these inflammatory stories began to circulate.

The peace camp will then be able to attack on two fronts, regarding 1.
vicious incitements against Rabin before the assassination and 2.
vicious incitements against Labor and the GSS after the assassination.
The right, which has been on the ropes, would be totally destroyed. IF
the stories are false.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:22 PST 1995
Article: 25126 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 04:27:23 GMT
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yodaiken@chelm.cs.nmt.edu (Victor Yodaiken) wrote:

>In article <1995Dec1.153029.1@hujicc>,   wrote:
>>In article <49jsig$4rh@orion.cybercom.net>, wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire) writes:

>Wayne says of Dr. Bakon:
>>> Far from sounding like a conspiracy nut, your recent posts have been the
>>> most sane and insightful posts on the assassination that I've read in
>>> these newsgroups. I look forward to whatever new information you have to
>>> present and analyze in the coming days.

>He worries that Dr. Bakon might be "disappeared".

Ever hear of irony? I followed that statement with a "" symbol.

I should think it would be a relatively easy matter for an Israeli here
to determine whether all of Rabin's bodyguards at the site of the
assassination are indeed still alive. It would be especially in the
interest of the Israeli government to put to rest any disturbing rumors
about the sudden death of one of the bodyguards.

So why isn't the rumor being rebutted on the Internet? It's a pretty
damned serious and damaging rumor, one which needs to be addressed.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:23 PST 1995
Article: 25129 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 04:43:23 GMT
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mstein@access2.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article <49pmq8$jnq@orion.cybercom.net>,
>Wayne McGuire  wrote:

>>Yesterday the Jerusalem Post (on the Web) reported that eyewitnesses
>>observed that Avishai Raviv, the Shin Bet agent, knew that Yigal Amir
>>was the assassin before that information had been released to the
>>public. How do you explain this? If the Jerusalem Post is right, how did
>>Raviv know the identity of the assassin? Telepathy?

>    One might theorize that a Shin Bet agent might have access to sources 
>of information not available to the general public.

Check out the story on the Jerusalem Post Web site. Something truly
smells fishy. How and why did Raviv, who was supposedly merely an
informant, not a GSS official, learn the identify of the assassin so
quickly? Was Raviv so important in the GSS that they would have divulged
the information to him over a cellular telephone?

>>Why was Raviv allowed to approach Rabin at point-blank range? Is any
>>national security service on the planet that incompetent?

>    I take it the above was a slip for "Amir."  I am told by someone who
>had been to Rabin's apartment and noted what would be light security - as
>compared to that around Clinton - that Rabin apparently did not want to be
>walled off from people.  I'm sure our own Secret Service would have
>considered him a nightmare to protect.

Right, I meant "Amir." But here we were in the middle of a huge crowd of
tens of thousands, during a period in which the GSS was in a state of
extremely high alert regarding threats to the life of Rabin from both
Muslims and Jews. And yet Amir was allowed to stride within a few feet
(or inches) of Rabin, pointing a gun at him!

Not only that, it should have been well-known to the GSS that Amir had
already made threats to assassinate Rabin.

>>Why is no one from the left here coming forward to rebut rationally all
>>the questions being raised? Why all of a sudden the thundering silence?

>    Lack of hard facts?  Just another theory.  I find it difficult to
>rebut idle speculation with nothing better than idle speculation.

Why doesn't someone in Israel who reads this newsgroup simply confirm
that Rabin's bodyguards (I believe there were three of them) are all
still alive? That would shoot down the most disturbing rumor.

This situation is quite unlike the Kennedy assassination. There will be
enormous public pressure to extract full information from knowledgeable
people who are still alive, while the event is still fresh. Suspicions
about conspiracies in the Kennedy assassination didn't come fully to
life until years after the event, when it was too late to squeeze most
of the possible principals in a conspiracy.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:25 PST 1995
Article: 25134 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Plot to Blow Up the Dome of the Rock
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 15:31:13 GMT
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Question: How is it going to be possible to keep Muslim and Jewish
extremists, like the one described below, from driving Israel and the
Muslim world into a possibly catastrophic war, one which could
potentially involve Western Europe and the United States?

This particular plot failed, but eventually won't one of these plots
against the Dome of the Rock or other similarly sensitive targets
inevitably be executed successfully?

Note again that this zealot is apparently not a secular or a Reform or a
Conservative Jew, and that he is on a religious mission.

It was reported recently on the newswires that David Ben-Gurion and most
of his cabinet were nearly blown away at a movie theater by a religious
fanatic who was obsessed with the vision of building the Third Temple.
The would-be assassin was stopped only at the last minute from firing a
machine gun into Ben-Gurion and his associates.

Ethan Bronner reported in The Boston Globe the other day that a high
Israeli security official stated that there are at least hundreds of
potential Yigal Amirs currently running around in Israel. We have seen
more than a dozen people on the Usenet who have expressed enthusiastic
support for the Rabin assassination, some of whom have advocated
assassinating other Jewish leaders.

On the other side, there are many Muslims who are determined to
eradicate Israel from the Middle East by any means necessary.

What are the odds that all of this is going to have a happy ending?
Who could possibly be an optimist when surveying this information?

-----CUT HERE----
  	  	
	 JERUSALEM, Nov 30 (Reuter) - An Israeli has appeared in 
court on suspicion he planned to fire a rocket-propelled grenade 
at Islam's Dome of the Rock shrine in the walled Old City of 
Jerusalem.  
	 Israeli media reports on Thursday said Eyal Keinan, 25, 
appeared on Wednesday in a Jerusalem court, which ordered him 
held for seven days to allow police to prepare an indictment.  
	 Police officer Rami Hason told the court that Keinan had 
test-fired a rocket-propelled grenade at an abandoned building 
near Tel Aviv in preparation for an attack on the gold-plated 
Dome of the Rock.  
	 ``It's complete nonsense,'' Keinan was quoted as telling the 
court by the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper. ``I do not accept your 
form of judgement. I abide only by holy law. What does British 
law have to do with me?''  
	 Jerusalem Magistrate Hanna Ben-Ami ordered Keinan undergo 
psychological evaluation while in custody.  
	 The Dome of the Rock and silver-capped al-Aqsa mosque are 
built on the traditional site of the biblical Jewish Temple 
Mount.  
	 Serious sabotage by Israeli or Jewish radicals of the third 
holiest site in Islam would be politically explosive.  
	 Ten years ago, Israel uncovered a Jewish underground of 
zealots who planned to blow up the Islamic sites as part of 
their vision to rebuild the holy Jewish temple on the mount.  

-----CUT HERE-----
	   	
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:26 PST 1995
Article: 25137 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 12:31:14 GMT
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lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>: Have more than a dozen Muslim fundamentalists expressed support for the
>: assassination of Rabin on the Usenet, or was it instead more than a
>: dozen Jewish fundamentalists who voiced that sentiment?

>this is hilarious. i have read much more exaltation from muslims
>on the death of rabin than from anyone else. in fact, there was
>one recently which stated that it was the best news he's ever
>heard. i noticed that you were all over him right away (NOT).

OK, Mr. Singer, let's see you back up your statement.

It is easy to produce messages from the Usenet from at least twelve
separate Jewish fundamentalists who praised the Rabin assassination.
Some of them even went farther, and called for the assassination of
other Jewish leaders, like Shimon Peres and Ed Koch.

How many individual Muslim fundamentalists on the Usenet praised the
Rabin assassination? Please give a precise number, with a few examples.

Here is one of numerous examples of the kind of Jewish fundamentalism I
am referring to. No doubt you and Amnon's heart beat as one in your
aversion to "Christian Jews."

Ask for more examples, and you shall receive:

Path:
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From: amnon13838@aol.com (Amnon13838)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel
Subject: NETANYAHU FOR PRIME MINISTER
Date: 5 Nov 1995 18:37:40 -0500
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There just may be an election coming up soon.  Now that Rabins been
bagged up and carted away it's time for a new gladiator.  Let's try
Netanyahu this time.  I like what I have heard and read about Netanyahu.
Let's put Likud into power with a strong assistance from Daati.  We need
a government that is for real Jews not Christain Jews or Arab Jews but
Jew Jews.  A Jewish government.  This thing about Rabin is not anything
new in Israeli history.  Just look at what the Kings of Israel and Judah
did to each other in thrist for power.  Jews were not afraid of Rabin.
In order to be a leader over Jews all Jews must fear the leader.  We
need ruthless blood thirsty leaders that tolerate only people that are
willing to obey the commandments in the Torah.  Now that we have started
killing each other like the nations around us lets make it a survival of
the fittist.  Thoses that rule over Israel must be fit to rule both
physically and mentally.  Let's make Netanyahu more than a simply Prime
Minister let's make him the King.  Netanyahu King of Israel Meleck
Israel.  Has a good ring to it don't you think.  Let's pick a King that
will put all these peacenicks right in the front of the battle.  MiJa?
Amnon. 

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:27 PST 1995
Article: 25138 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Plot to Blow Up the Dome of the Rock
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 12:40:28 GMT
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Avraham Hampel  wrote:

>That is a Christian concept. The Jewish view of Mashiach is of a human king 
>who will bring the world to perfection.

When you say the Jewish Messiah will bring the world to perfection, do
you mean the entire world? What do you mean by perfection, and precisely
how will the Messiah accomplish this interesting feat?

Would the words "messianism" and "utopianism" be the proper terms to
apply to this sort of philosophy?

The major messianiac and utopian movement of the 20th century was
Marxism/Communism, which murdered more than 100 million innocent human
beings and destroyed every society it touched in the pursuit of
universal peace and social justice.

I can't think of any messianic or utopian movement in history that
didn't lead to catastrophe and disaster. Messianists tend to be inept
jerk-off artists who can't manage their personal affairs, not to mention
those of the entire world.

Perhaps you can come up with a few examples of successful messianism and
utopianism in human history, and convince us why, based on long and
painful experience, we shouldn't cast a cold eye at anyone espousing
messianism of any kind.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:28 PST 1995
Article: 25141 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 12:50:11 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>i'm sure the "left" is happy for your "usual" "support," mcguire.
>bash away!

You are gradually but firmly distinguishing yourself as one of the most
abusive and content-free denizens of the Usenet. You contributed not a
single fact or idea to this thread.

Join the company of Murray Kahl/Isaac Balbin--that is where you fit on
the spectrum of Usenet personalities, at the bottom of the barrel.

For the record, by the way, I've repeatedly stated that I strongly
disagree with both the right and the left in Israel. Libertarianism is
deeply at odds with both right-wing religious authoritarianism and
left-wing socialist authoritarianism. I think Israel and the Jewish
world need to develop a third way, perhaps called "Jewish
libertarianism," that will strongly tone down the authoritarian
tendencies on both the right and the left. It is precisely those
authoritarian tendencies that could bring Israel to a state of civil war
and destroy the Jewish state for the second time in history.

So far you have not been able to address these issues in a substantive,
intelligent and knowledgeable way. Your stock in trade is epithets and
verbal violence. You've shown not the least ability to engage in real
thinking. But you've got a remarkable talent for whipping yourself into
a frenzy and expressing angry emotions.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:29 PST 1995
Article: 25142 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: The Holocaust's Continuation in April 1948
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 13:00:33 GMT
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noltemei@ira.uka.de (Sven Noltemeier) wrote:

>I don't like your nit-picking on the word Holocaust.  But now to your state-
>ment that there has been more than one holocaust:  I think that _the_ Holocaust
>has been unique in its determination and execution.  I don't know of any
>other extinction that was directed against people that had done absolutely
>_nothing_ to infest this kind of hatred and crime, in contrast to minorities
>in other states who e.g. wanted to separate.

According to R. J. Rummel in "Death by Government," Hitler murdered 11
million Slavs, more than the twice the number of Jewish victims of
Nazism.

What precisely did the Slavs do to stir up this hatred?

What did the 5 million Urkrainians do to deserve their fate who were
murdered by the Communists in the early 1930s?

What about the more than 100 million victims of Communism overall in
this century?

Perhaps you could address the following points:

The following lists some key statistics concerning genocide, democide
and political mass murder in the twentieth century, according to R. J.
Rummel in "Death by Government" (Transaction Publishers, 1994).
"Victims" refers to the murder of civilians--men, women and children.
All numbers are rounded off to the nearest million.

Victims of totalitarian regimes (20th century): 170 million 
Victims of Soviet Communism (1917-1987): 62 million
Victims of Stalin (1929-53): 43 million
Victims of Mao Tse-Tung (1923-1976): 38 million
Victims of Adolf Hitler (1933-45): 21 million
Slavic victims of Hitler: 11 million
Ukrainian victims of Stalin (1932-33 famine): 5 million
Jewish victims of Hitler (1942-45 Holocaust): 5 million
Victims of Cambodian Khmer Rouge (1975-79): 2 million

Some apparent conclusions:

1. The Soviet Union murdered almost three times as many civilians as did
the Nazi regime.

2. Stalin murdered more than twice as many civilians as did Hitler.

3. Mao Tse-Tung murdered almost twice as many civilians as did Hitler.

4. Mao Tse-Tung murdered almost eight times as many civilians as Hitler
murdered Jews.

5. Hitler murdered more than twice as many Slavs as Jews.

6. Stalin murdered as many Ukrainians in 1932-1935 as Hitler murdered
Jews in 1942-1945.

7. Mass murder by radical left regimes in the twentieth century has not
been nearly as publicized as mass murder by radical right regimes.

8. Marxists deliberately and systematically murdered more than twenty
times more ideological enemies in the twentieth century than Nazis
murdered Jews.

9. The Marxist Holocaust is by far the single greatest political crime
of the twentieth century and of all world history.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:29 PST 1995
Article: 25145 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Aaron D. Gross, Steve Jones and Orthodox Judaism
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:12:23 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <49k3fm$4rh@orion.cybercom.net>
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aaron.g@ix.netcom.com (Aaron D. Gross ) wrote:

>My gorge truly rises in this newsgroup as I witness the careless and
>tiresome and overused rejoinder of "anti-semite" flung at the drop of
>a hat by, IMHO,  *some-not-all*  over-sensitive Jews. But in this
>case.............you may well be right on target with your gauntlet in
>the face of brother McGuire.  If your statistical analysis of the
>history of Wayne's posts is accurate: i.e. the six years, the Pat
>Buchanan, the lack of a balanced interest in Christian or Moslem
>religious "extremism"....

Poor Steve Jones (apparently he is the author here) is being pulled
deeply into Aaron D. Gross's doodoo.

(Please let us not confuse Aaron D. Gross with Aaron Gross in Israel,
who is a highly literate, intelligent and fair-minded person.)

Gross is a notorious and congenital liar.

Two examples above: I supported some Buchanan policies (namely the
anti-imperialist ones), and strongly disagreed with other Buchanan
policies (namely all the authoritarian ones). I've posted many hundreds
of messages criticizing Christian and Muslim fundamentalism. Gross knows
all this this, but he chooses to lie shamelessly.

Another example: Gross once claimed that Amnesty International had
singled out Egypt as being the worst offender of human rights in the
Middle East. I exposed Gross's lie by contacting Amnesty International
directly and setting the record straight.

Another example: Gross once tried to censor me on a computer network by
deliberately and malicious misquoting one of my messages to make it
appear that I described all of Judaism as being "virulently racist." The
excised material, which he failed to indicate with an ellipsis, made it
clear that I was referring specifically to Rabbi Meir Kahane's brand of
Judaism, not Judaism in general.

On every policy issue Gross and I debated, Gross lost in the real
world--Israel, no doubt to his immense dismay, subsequently adopted
every policy regarding compromise with Palestinian nationalism that I
had been advocating since the mid-eighties.

Gross's main problem is that he wants to leave many hundreds of messages

pushing his inflammatory right-wing views on Orthodox Judaism, religion
in general, and Israeli politics, but he wants to suppress any critical
response to his views. He has the mentality of a dictator. Anyone who
disagrees with him he tries to smear as an anti-Semite or a self-hating
Jew. This is a familiar phenomenon, of course, to anyone who has
followed the great Mideast debates in recent years. There are hundreds
of Aaron D. Gross's out there who are highly excitable but short on the
ability to engage in rational discussion.

Aaron D. Gross will quickly reveal his true colors on the Usenet, I have
no doubt, and will have great difficulty finding anyone willing to give
him the time of day. Of all the folks I've encountered in cyberspace who
have been excited about the Middle East, Gross ranks in the bottom 10%
along with Murray Kahl, Isaac Balbin, Red Herring and others of this ilk
for quality of thought. If you want to associate yourself with this
crowd, be my guest.

Gross is a tremendous embarrassment to Orthodox Judaism. Ask him about
his views, for instance, on homosexuality, and from whence he derives
them. If he has forgotten what he has said on these and other issues, I
will be happy to remind him by quoting back his own messages.

It's unfortunate that moderate proponents of Orthodox Judaism haven't
been more visible in cyberspace to counteract the negative impressions
being created by bigots and haters who claim to be speaking for Judaism
and all Jews in general.

As for Steve Jones, precisely who are you, where are you coming from,
and what knowledge do you have to share with us about Mideast politics?

What's your politico-religious agenda? Please be specific. Don't be shy.

Who are your five favorite authors on Mideast politics? What particular
books, articles or issues are you prepared to discuss intelligently? So
far you are simply ranting and spewing, without providing a single fact
or a stab at useful analysis.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:30 PST 1995
Article: 25147 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 13:40:54 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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efraimr@ix.netcom.com (Roger Froikin) wrote:

>In <49qbrp$o0i@orion.cybercom.net> wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne
>McGuire) writes: 

>>Which brand of fundamentalism represents the greater threat to
>>Israel--Jewish or Muslim?

>I would say neither.   The State of Israel will not live or die
>dependant on the behavior of either.   

In light of Jewish history, how can you say this?

The Second Temple fell because of civil strife in Israel between
messianists/fundamentalists/ultranationalists and pragmatists/moderates.
Current developments in Israel have reminded many scholars of Jewish
history of that previous catastrophic period.

Cynthia Ozick remarked in The New York Times Sunday:

'The Talmud defines factionalism as "causeless hatred" and places the
burden of the Exile not on Rome's conquest of Jerusalem but on the
falling out of brethren.'

Israel is totally dependent on the United States and Western Europe for
its existence and survival. Is the democratic West likely to continue to
support an Israel that is being driven towards bloody chaos by
anti-democratic religious fundamentalists?

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:31 PST 1995
Article: 25148 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 17:57:09 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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Avi Jacobson  wrote:

>I spoke to the neighbor of one of the members of the burial society at 
>the cemetery where a very high-ranking GSS member was buried last week, 
>after his sudden and mysterious death.  According to the burial worker, 
>the public cemetery was closed and sealed off for three hours, and dozens 
>of GSS representatives were there.

Avi,

Thanks for sharing this information.

Every day that goes by in which the Israeli government doesn't
decisively rebut these stories that are floating around the Internet and
elsewhere is a day that is doing major political damage to the left, to
Labor, and, in the long run, to the prospects for the peace process.

I want these stories very much not to be true and for the Israeli
government to prove they are not true. I wish the government would
PLEASE act now, and break the wall of censorship and silence!

The implications of these stories are more scary than the incitements by
sectors of the religious right before the assassination--and they were
scary enough.

The following report just appeared in the December 3 issue of Arutz-7:

2. AMIR CUSTODY EXTENDED; INTIMATES A COVER-UP
Although the police requested this morning the extension of 
assassin Yigal Amir's custody by eight days, the presiding judge 
agreed to extend it only by four. The police explained that 
they are in possession of new information regarding the murder 
investigation, and that they therefore require more time to 
prepare the indictment charges. On his way to the courtroom, 
Amir asked reporters, "Why aren't you reporting that they 
murdered the bodyguard who yelled that the bullets are 
blanks?" The Arutz-7 correspondent reported that it was 
unclear whether he was referring to reports he read in the 
press, or to that which he saw at the time of the murder.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:32 PST 1995
Article: 25149 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 18:00:43 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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arens@isi.edu (Yigal Arens) wrote:

>As I said, note that your two "credible" sources are in conflict on a very
>significant matter -- the identity of this supposedly dead GSS person.

Yigal,

You know that I trust your reliability and judgement about Israeli
affairs.

Is there any chance that two GSS people died?

Is the political right in Israel dumb enough to make up and disseminate
these stories knowing that they are false? If the stories are proven
false, the anger against the right will only be redoubled and increased,
after the temporary reprieve of confusion about culpability in the
assassination.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:33 PST 1995
Article: 25155 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 14:32:09 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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Message-ID: <49v0m2$n0m@orion.cybercom.net>
References: <49f2ls$ai@orion.cybercom.net> <49nhqf$v7@news.netvision.net.il> <49soaf$98m@orion.cybercom.net> <1995Dec4.013307.10386@cs.rit.edu> <49uvjm$lqb@panix2.panix.com>
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ysilver@panix.com (Yehuda SIlver) wrote:

>What about the already known facts that:

I hate to admit it, Yehuda, but you raised many valid points in response
to Brendan McKay.

Let's see if Brendan maintains his usual high standards in offering a
convincing explanation for each and every one of them.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:34 PST 1995
Article: 25166 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Josh Backon Vindicated (Death of a GSS Guard)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 16:07:57 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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A number of people here have ridiculed Josh Backon for claiming that a
GSS guard had died after the assassination. Arutz-7 reports today the
following:

10. GSS DEATH RELEASED FOR PUBLICATION
The Army Censor allowed the publication, for the first time, of 
the death of General Security Service guard Yoav Kuriel. His 
funeral had brought about a wave of rumors regarding the 
supposed suicide of one of Rabin's bodyguards. The news item was 
submitted for approval to the Censor by Arutz-7 two weeks ago, 
but was disallowed; today, it appears in the daily HaTzofeh. 
Kuriel, age 27, was buried at Yarkon Cemetery, during which time 
the cemetery was closed off to the public. 

Questions:

1. Who precisely is Yoav Kuriel? Was he present at the assassination
site?

2. How precisely did he die?

3. Why was this information censored at all? Why?

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:35 PST 1995
Article: 25170 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 1995 11:40:00 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <49s27c$5i6@orion.cybercom.net>
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dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) wrote:

>>Which brand of fundamentalism represents the greater threat to
>>Israel--Jewish or Muslim?

>I've said it in the last 2 weeks. Jewish. Just because you say something
>doesn't mean I automatically disagree (although that's my instinctual
>reaction :->).

When we've found a rare point of agreement, let's enjoy it. Jewish
fundamentalism does indeed probably represent a greater threat to Israel
than Muslim fundamentalism, although one should never underestimate the
ability of Muslim fundamentalists to perform some outrageous act that
will quickly make us forget about Yigal Amir.

The fact that more a dozen Jews in this newsgroup have voiced support
for the assassination of Rabin is a matter of the gravest import.

In what other newsgroup on the entire Usenet have more than a dozen
people called for the murder of the head of the world's only Jewish
state? Think about it.

>Since the civil war hasn't started yet and bombing has, I have to
>say the former. Of course if the civil war starts, it will be the latter.
>But, in reading your posts alluding to the conspiracy against Rabin, 
>(whichever one you were repeating that day), the truth always comes out
>in Israel. And it usually doesn't take too long. Be patient. I don't
>think it's going to be as outlandish as some of the ones you've described.
>(Especially the one about the gun was supposed to have blanks. You don't
>really believe that, do you?)

I don't know what to believe about the blanks. The following three
reports I have seen in the media disturb me: 1) an eyewitness claimed
that a GSS bodyguard, not Amir, made the remark about the gun containing
only blanks (WHILE Amir was shooting); 2) one of the groups that quickly
claimed credit for the hit--I believe it was Raviv's--thought the
attempt had failed and warned that they would try again; 3) a GSS agent
told Leah Rabin not to worry and that Rabin had not been seriously hurt.

Aren't these facts and others like them a bit strange? Most of us are
now waiting for the other shoe to drop.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:37 PST 1995
Article: 25191 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 03:32:55 GMT
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>: For the record, by the way, I've repeatedly stated that I strongly
>: disagree with both the right and the left in Israel.

>Excellent, Wayne, excellent! This is what we have been saying all along. 
>You despise all Zionists, regardless of their political affiliation. 
>Thanks for setting the record straight.

In other words, if one disagrees with both right-wing religious
authoritarianism and left-wing socialist authoritarianism in Israel, one
must necessarily "despise" ALL Zionists. These are the only two types of
Zionist that exist in Israel, according to you and Lane Singer.

I sure as hell hope you are wrong, because if these are the only two
political types available in Israel, the state is doomed. The only
question will be whether Israel fully self-destructs before the Western
democratic world turns its back on it.

But in fact there are other strains of thinking within Zionism that can
be nurtured and expanded. Both Yeshayahu Leibowitz and Israel Shahak,
for instance, have condemned right-wing religious authoritarianism and
left-wing socialist authoritarianism, and have advocated a libertarian
third way in Israeli political life. (And Leibowitz, it should be noted,
was an Orthodox Jew.)

By the way, both you and Lane Singer are doing enormous damage to the
public image of Israel. Neither of you could think or reason your way
out of a wet paper bag, and you are both brimming with nasty abuse and
verbal violence. Any true enemy of Israel could only hope that yahoos
like you and Singer keep blabbing away in public forums and embarrassing
yourselves and your cause. You are fully as unappetizing as the
over-the-top Arab, Muslim, Greek, Turkish and Armenian tribalists on the
Usenet. You are totally out of touch with mainstream American culture
and attitudes. Americans don't have to, and in the long run, won't, put
up with xenophobic zealots of your ilk. Trust me: they will find ways to
express their displeasure with your tiresome rants and demands.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:38 PST 1995
Article: 25208 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Lane Singer's Hysterical Lies
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 14:14:09 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

Singer,

You failed to produce a shred of evidence, in terms of direct quotes
>from  my posts, that

1. I am a racist.
2. I am a neo-Nazi.
3. I hate Zionism.
4. I hate Orthodox Jews.
5. I think Israel should not exist.

Either produce the evidence to support these outrageous smears, or
provide an apology.

It is quite obvious that you are a familiar primitive type in the
Mideast debates. You are incapable of pursuing a rational discussion
about any issue, but are hopping mad and inflamed that anyone dares to
express opinions that differ from your own. All you've got to fall back
on are these vicious lies--you can't debate facts and issues.

Produce the evidence or apologize for each and every one of the above
libelous smears.

"that i'm light-years beyond you in consciousness is beyond your ken."
--Lane Singer

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:39 PST 1995
Article: 25209 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!winternet.com!io.org!chi-news.cic.net!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Jewish Support for the Rabin Assassination
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 21:45:38 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>frankly, it's none of my business what israel chooses to do
>or not do. i've already told you i'm an american.

Lord, what a transparent hypocrite. You are obviously profoundly
obsessed by whatever Israel does, and by what people think about Israel,
so much so, in fact, that you deliver long abusive harangues against
anyone, particularly goyim, who express disagreement with right-wing
religious Zionists.

Unfortunately, your harangues are completely mindless. You give not the
least evidence that you know anything about what is going on in Israeli
political life, what the main lines of ideological and political dispute
are, and who are the most important thinkers on all sides of the policy
debates.

You are plenty whipped up emotionally about Israel, but you don't have a
single rational or interesting utterance to make about Israeli politics.
Why are you so excited about a subject on which you possess so little
knowledge?

So be my guest: continue to dig yourself ever deeper into the hole in
which you have wedged yourself, and leave a voluminous public digital
trail about yourself that some of us will find amusing and interesting.
You are a wonderful example, along with Murray Kahl/Isaac Balbin and so
many others on the Usenet, of the horrific public relations problems
Israel has these days. Israeli supporters don't come much more primitive
and ineffectual than yourself, Singer.

Let me refresh your memory, by the way: one month before the Rabin
assassination I issued a strong warning about the likelihood of that
event. At the time, I was strongly attacked and ridiculed by thoughtless
zealots like yourself. After the assassination, I argued that there was
a strong probability of a conspiracy within the Israeli government or
GSS, and was again attacked and ridiculed. I suggest you consult today's
newspapers, and see again who has had the better and more prescient
grasp of Israeli politics around here, you or me.

All you can do is whine about people here who dare to tell the truth.
You have no truth of your own to offer us.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:40 PST 1995
Article: 25210 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: The Genius of Lane Singer
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 14:24:39 GMT
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lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:

>: Hey, Lane: why don't you let us all in on the secret of your majestic
>: mental and spiritual development. I'm all ears:

>you can contemplate it in terms of wisdom and compassion;
>these are the most important elements.

>singer ---------------------------------------------------------

You truly are a fatuous ass!

What on earth makes you think you are light-years ahead of anyone
concerning wisdom? Anyone who reviews your collected works on the Usenet
will quickly realize that you are completely ignorant about the subjects
on which you presume to speak, and especially about Mideast politics and
Israel, the subjects which most engage you emotionally because of your
tribal instincts and affiliations.

And what sort of compassionate person uses vile personal abuse and lies
to try to dig themselves out of the debating holes they've dug
themselves into because of their lack of knowledge?

As for your supposed tolerance, even suggesting that freedom of speech
and religion applies to groups like Jews for Jesus, who offend your
tribal sensibilities, causes you to go nuclear. Your actual behavior on
the Usenet betrays your tired liberal platitudes about universal
tolerance.

It's easy to see where you are really coming, Singer. You are a besotted
tribalists who lacks the mental tools to defend your tribalism
intelligently. Spare us the false cliches about trans-tribal tolerance.
Your tribal buttons are far too easy to push.

"that i'm light-years beyond you in consciousness is beyond your ken."
--Lane Singer

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:41 PST 1995
Article: 25213 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 14:35:15 GMT
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dasnyder@uci.edu (David Snyder) wrote:

>In article <4a0flo$53r@orion.cybercom.net>, wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne
>McGuire) wrote:

>> efraimr@ix.netcom.com(Roger Froikin) wrote:
>> 
>> >First of all, Israel is not "totally dependant" as you state.
>> 
>> Roger,
>> 
>> You are living in a dream world. Israel is TOTALLY dependent on the
>> United States. Cut off all American economic, military and political
>> aid, and Israel would collapse overnight. Even worse, let Israel
>> position itself in a state of severe conflict with the U.S., and imagine
>> the consequences. What if, for instance, it were learned that the
>> Israeli government had plotted to assassinate an American president,
>> like George Bush (as has been charged by former Mossad agent Victor
>> Ostrovsky).
>> 
>Mr. McGuire, 

>Many countries are in many ways dependant on the United States

Mr. Snyder,

Israel, a country with a population of around 5 million, has received
more than $100 billion in American aid since its founding in the late
forties.

American aid to Israel has amounted to around $1000 per Israeli per
capita during the last decade or two.

Please name any other nation on the face of the planet that has ever
received foreign aid for a sustained period of time at the rate of $1000
per citizen per year--man, woman and child.

While Americans themselves have had to suffer deep cuts in social
spending, this extraordinarily high level of aid to Israel has remained
untouched, primarily because members of the Congress are terrified of
the vindictive Israeli lobby. (Challenge this statement, and I'll be
happy to provide you with a list of five or six highly reputable books
which have analyzed in depth just how that lobby operates.)

My assertion remains unrebutted: Israel is more dependent on foreign aid
than any nation in the history of the world, and this fact represents a
gross betrayal of the Zionist dream.

The appropriate response to these points among Zionists, in my opinion,
is to acknowledge the problem, and to call for a drastic reduction in
American aid to Israel. Many intelligent Zionists adopt this line. But
many not so intelligent Zionists become defensive and spin out endless
apologetics to justify the United States continuing to provide this aid
at the same or even greater levels. They are helping Israel dig itself
into an ever deeper hole. The billions in aid are a self-destructive
drug, and the price for the addiction is eventually going to come due.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:42 PST 1995
Article: 25214 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 14:41:14 GMT
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DrLaz@aol.com (Andrew Lazarus) wrote:

>My argument should really be with Ozick, but since you are citing her
>approvingly here (probably one of the few times you would agree with
>Ozick...)....

You are right here, as an aside. In fact, I strongly disagreed with the
article by Ozick in which the quote was embedded. But the quote was a
good one. (Ozick absurdly went on to try to depict support for the peace
process as a form of delusional messianism.)

Regarding American support for Israel: I think it is much more shallow
than you realize. American attitudes towards Israel could be turned
upside down overnight, given the right circumstances. You should check
out some of the relevant polls.

Many Zionists fail to understand why it is that many high American
national security officials supported Israel since its founding. They
had better make an effort to learn the facts, or they may be in for some
rude shocks in the future.

Sentiment had little to do with support. Rational strategic calculations
were the key factor, and the strategic environment has changed radically
since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:43 PST 1995
Article: 25215 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Suicide of bodyguard
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 15:11:12 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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Mordechai Perlman  wrote:

>	For Michael Shimshoni who thinks hat everything published on 
>Israeli news is absolute truth.  I received a message today to the fact 
>that rabin's bodyguard committed suicide, from Arutz Sheva.

According to Victor Ostrovsky, in his first book on the Mossad, it is
common for the Mossad to murder people and make it look like a suicide.

This of course doesn't prove that the bodyguard was "suicided." But when
you look at all the information on the table, and particularly consider
the reputation of the Mossad, questions and doubts arise.

This entire episode--the Rabin assassination and GSS involvement with
extremist groups--needs to be investigated from top to bottom, or
Israel's political health, which is already in bad shape, is going to
decline precipitiously. All the ugly questions and doubts need to be
laid to rest.

Some of the remarks I've heard from leaders on the left have been
extremely disturbing, and have revealed a serious contempt for
democracy. They are rapidly turning the center of attention from the
religious right to the high-handed left. They had better wake up real
fast to how they are being damaged politically.

What worries me is that the roof is going to fall in on Labor, and that
the peace process will be derailed. But it is not worth destroying
Israeli democracy to prevent this result. What an unbelievable turn of
events.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:44 PST 1995
Article: 25224 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!news3.mr.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!winternet.com!io.org!chi-news.cic.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 00:05:23 GMT
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lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>Wayne McGuire (wmcguire@cybercom.net) wrote:
>: lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>: >: Have more than a dozen Muslim fundamentalists expressed support for the
>: >: assassination of Rabin on the Usenet, or was it instead more than a
>: >: dozen Jewish fundamentalists who voiced that sentiment?

>: >this is hilarious. i have read much more exaltation from muslims
>: >on the death of rabin than from anyone else. in fact, there was
>: >one recently which stated that it was the best news he's ever
>: >heard. i noticed that you were all over him right away (NOT).

>: OK, Mr. Singer, let's see you back up your statement.

>which statement is that? that there was one recently which
>you conveniently ignored?

I am coming to the definite conclusion that you are without a doubt
brain dead.

You stated above that you "have read much more exaltation from muslims
on the death of rabin than anyone else."

Back up the statement. Name the Muslims. I've named twelve Jews who
supported the Rabin assassination. Name even SIX Muslims who supported
the assassination on the Usenet--that's half the number of Jews.

Why do you continue to embarrass yourself by leaving messages here?
Don't you know when you are way over your head? All you've got to
sustain yourself in a discussion is a head full of rage that is
completely devoid of facts. Murray Kahl, dude. Isaac Balbin. That's your
speed. It's pathetic.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:46 PST 1995
Article: 25226 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 1995 23:41:00 GMT
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efraimr@ix.netcom.com(Roger Froikin) wrote:

>A.  What makes you assume your list is of "Orthodox Jews" or even of
>Jews ?

Because most of them framed their support of Rabin's assassination in
terms of standard Orthodox Jewish rhetoric. Consider Lisa Aaronson as a
prominent example. (She also expressed support for Baruch Goldstein's
massacre of Muslims at their house of worship.) (For the zillionth time:
I am not accusing all Orthodox Jews of subscribing to these views. But
nearly all the Jews who subscribe to these views are Orthodox.)

Any persons on that list are free to state here exactly what are their
religious affiliations.

>B.  Wayne, I don't know how old you are and you may be too young to
>remember the Jennedy assassination well.  I remember far too many
>people expressing joy about Kennedy's death.  Had the internet been
>available then, I'm sure we would have seen a flood of such messages.

I remember the Kennedy assassination quite well. I don't recall a single
American in my acquaintance or anywhere rejoicing over the
assassination--not one. To do so would have been a total obscenity--the
speaker probably would have been punched out.

Roger--you are in serious denial. The fact that a dozen Jews expressed
support for the murder of the head of the world's only Jewish state
makes it clear that soc.culture.israel is one of the most politically
extreme and hate-filled newsgroups on the Usenet. Newsgroups like
alt.revisionism don't even come close.

How shall we characterize this mob: as Jewish anti-Semites? We've got
anti-Semites, we've got self-hating Jews (according to many of the
Orthodox here), and we've got Jewish anti-Semites. Consider which group
has actually called for the murder of Jewish leaders.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:47 PST 1995
Article: 25234 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: How influential is _The Jewish Press_?
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 19:04:32 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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hjweiss@netcom.com (Harry Weiss) wrote:

>Actually the Jewish Press does have a very high circulation.  They have 
>excellent features and column.  Every since I was child everyone laughed 
>at the editorial content of the JP.

What do you mean: the editorial viewpoint of The Jewish Press is
expressed largely though those columns which you describe as
"excellent." Three of those columns per week were written by Rabbi Meir
Kahane when he was alive, two under pseudonyms. Nearly all the other
columns express a strongly Kahanist viewpoint.

That its readers take the Kahanist editorial content of The Jewish Press
extremely seriously can be measured by the fact that the letters section
each week is brimming with responses from those readers--nearly all of
them expressing the same Kahanist viewpoint as the many columns.

The frivolous response to this issue here reveals that many Jews are
still not taking seriously the problem of religious and political
extremism in their midst. It's the same old evasions that were offered
before the assassination of Rabin. The cost of these evasions will be
more acts like Goldstein massacre and the Rabin assassination, and each
further act will exact terrible damage.

Meanwhile I am still waiting for Michael Stein to name an influential
Orthodox newspaper in the U.S. which takes a much more moderate
political line than The Jewish Press, which, among other things, has
praised Baruch Goldstein as a Jewish hero.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:49 PST 1995
Article: 25236 of soc.culture.israel
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!pacifier!homer.alpha.net!news.jersey.net!news.win.bright.net!brutus.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!night.primate.wisc.edu!sdd.hp.com!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Please Present the Prophecy
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 18:35:55 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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dspiegel@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Dan Spiegel) wrote:

>In article <49vq2v$mg@orion.cybercom.net>,
>Wayne McGuire  wrote:
>>
>>Let me refresh your memory, by the way: one month before the Rabin
>>assassination I issued a strong warning about the likelihood of that
>>event. 

>If there was one time, just one time you back up your words, Wayne, this
>is the time. I want to see this warning, ver batim, with the newsgroups
>it was posted in attached. I'm not saying you didn't issue this warning,
>I just am skeptical that you said something like "Watch out - Rabin will be
>killed soon".

>Of course, if you don't present the article, you know what conclusions 
>everybody will draw.

Dan,

Are these items explicit enough for you?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: A Prophetic Warning on the Rabin Assassination
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 15:06:13 GMT
Organization: CYBERCOM Internet Services  (617) 396-0491
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Xref: news.cybercom.net soc.culture.israel:10687
talk.politics.mideast:8756

The following item was posted in soc.culture.israel on October 12. How
can anyone be shocked, in the sense of being surprised, by the Rabin
assassination?

And will anyone be truly surprised if Peres is attacked, or if Israel
succumbs to civil war, or if the peace process collapses, or if Israel
manages to alienate and destroy all its traditional support from the
United States and Western Europe?

What does it require to make people wake up?

-----Cut Here-----

Path: news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel
Subject: Jewish Assassination Threats Against Rabin
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 1995 21:26:59 GMT
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Note the following passage from the Judean Voice:

>Itamar Ben Gvir, Kach's youth director was released after several hours 
>of questioning, 10.10.95. Ben Gvir was arrested after boasting that Kach 
>youth had vandalized Rabin's car. Ben Gvir was photographed by Yediot 
>Achronot while holding the Cadillac symbol from Rabin's car. Ben Gvir 
>told reporters: "If we can get to Rabin's car we can get to him". 

The interesting question to ask is, how many of these Kahanist activists
are being covertly controlled, manipulated, encouraged or supported by
the Shamir/Sharon wing of the Likud party.

Information of this nature continues to add credibility to Victor
Ostrovsky's charges that the Mossad plotted to assassinate President
George Bush.

Israel is walking right on the edge of a precipice, and many Israeli
supporters don't seem to grasp the gravity of the situation.

A single revelation or event of a certain kind could bring down the
entire state of Israel any day overnight--that is how fragile Israel's
position is in the family of nations.

What is surprising is that Israeli moderates are not more angry about
the extremists that could sink their boat. The extremists represent a
very grave threat to the moderates and everything they cherish.

-----Cut Here-----

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."

Path: news.cybercom.net!usenet
From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: A Prophetic Warning on the Rabin Assassination
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 15:33:01 GMT
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Another reason why the Rabin assassination should have been no surprise:

-----Cut Here-----

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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.dan-quayle,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Orthodox Jewish Terrorism Against Jews
Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 23:43:54 GMT
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efraimr@ix.netcom.com (Roger Froikin) wrote:

>>If you consult the current copy of New York magazine, you will see an
>>article by Robert Friedman in which he reports that one of the leading
>>Orthodox rabbis in the U.S. has called for the assassination of Yitzhak
>>Rabin, using Maimonides as his authority, and has praised Baruch Goldstein
>>as a Jewish hero.

>I missed the NY Times this weekend.  I will look for it. If Friedman
>made such a comment, then he is writing libel, and I would hope that he
>would not have.   I know of no leading Rabbincal figure in the US or
>elsewhere who has praised Goldstein's behavior.  None.   I am fairly
>well versed on the wrtitings of Maimonides both in Hebrew and Arabic,
>and I recall (and can find) nothing even vaguely supportive in his
>writings of such a position.   It's pure fiction.

Robert Friedman in the magazine "New York" for October 9, 1995, on pages
24 and 26, in an article entitled "The Rabbi Who Sentenced Yitzhak Rabin
to Death," reports that Rabbi Avraham Hecht, who is the chief rabbi of
the Congregation Sha'are Zion in Flatbush, New York and the president of
the Rabbinical Alliance of America, a national organization of 540
Orthodox rabbis, called for the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin and
praised Dr. Baruch Goldstein.

Said Rabbi Hecht about Goldstein:


"I think Goldstein is a great man, a holy man," Hecht says. "If I ever
visit [Hebron], I'm going to visit his grave."


Regarding the assassination decree:


The decree came June 19, in the basement chapel of a Manhattan synagogue
during a meeting of the International Rabbinical Coalition for Israel, a
3,000-member international organization founded in 1993 to oppose the
Mideast peace process. Hecht, a member of the IRC's eight-person
American rabbinic steering committee, declared that surrendering any
part of the biblical land of Israel is a violation of Jewish religious
law, and so assassinating Rabin--"and all who assist him"--is not only
permissible but necessary.


Rabbi Hecht on Maimonides:


"All I said was that according to Jewish law, any one person--you can
apply it to whoever you want--any one person who willfully, consciously,
intentionally hands over human bodies or human property or the human
wealth of the Jewish people to an alien people is guilty of the sin for
which the penalty is death.

"And, according to Maimonides--you can quote me--it says very clearly,
if a man kills him, he has done a good deed."



Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg, a humanities professor at New York University,
says Hecht and his compatriots are no better than bloody-minded mullahs.
"What you are dealing with is the Jewish version of Khomenism," he says.
"The overwhelming majority of American Jews support the peace process.
But these maniacs are crazy. They are inquisitors. In the fourteenth and
fifteenth centuries, the Spanish Inquisition burned the bodies of Jews
and heretics in order to save their souls, and they did it in good
conscience. This kind of fanaticism can permit the greatest swinishness
in good conscience."


So, Mr. Froikin, how can you categorically deny the above information?

How can you deny that "The Jewish Press" of Brooklyn, a newspaper with a
circulation greater than that of any other Jewish newspaper in the U.S.,
has published articles praising Baruch Goldstein as a Jewish hero?

With information like this coming to light, Victor Ostrovsky's
credibility has certainly been strengthened. If leading religious Jews
are capable of calling for the assassination of a fellow Jew who is the
Prime Minister of Israel, they are certainly capable of plotting the
assassination of an American President like George Bush, whom they
consider to be an evil goy and a menace to the creation Biblical Greater
Israel.

Are Israelis and Israeli supporters here fully aware that these Jewish
extremists are capable of doing far more damage to Israel and to the
world Jewish community than Hamas? It is not difficult to imagine one or
two incidents inspired by these zealots that would destroy relations
between Israel and the Western democratic world for all time.

Those events could occur at any moment now.

Much of Orthodox Judaism on its present path stands a good chance of
radically isolating itself from nearly the entire world, including from
the majority of Jews.

-----Cut Here-----

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:50 PST 1995
Article: 25239 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 16:13:27 GMT
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bdm@cs.rit.edu (Brendan McKay) wrote:

>>3) The phone call claiming "we missed but will get him next time?

>Sorry, I have forgotten the details.  Can you remind me?

Sorry, Brendan, but this wasn't one of your best efforts, and I am not
referring only to the above passage.

I get a strong vibe that those who are pooh-poohing a government
conspiracy, or at least a scandalous "michdal" (fuck-up, screw-up) in
the Rabin assassination, are going to be badly burned.

Concerning the above, it was reported that one group--I think it was
Aviv's--claimed credit for an ATTEMPT on Rabin's life, a failed attempt.
Why in the world did this group think the attempt had failed? Weird.

The question then arises, did they know that a failed attempt was in the
works before the event? Were they being directed by the GSS or elements
within the GSS?

If this were the only problem, maybe we could let it pass. But there are
many other problems.

Why did Aviv, according to The Jerusalem Post, refer familiarly to
"Yigal" as the assassin in a telephone conversation apparently with his
handlers--forty minutes before this information was released to the
public?

Unless the left and the government start to answer all these questions
with great force and candor, they are going to suffer enormous political
damage. The campaign against the religious right has already come to a
dead halt, while everyone waits anxiously for answers to the legitimate
questions that have been raised.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:52 PST 1995
Article: 25269 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 00:30:43 GMT
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backon@vms.huji.ac.il wrote:

>Wayne, this above post from Amnon is from Warren Losey, a.k.a. "Israel
>Tekhelet" who is neither Jewish nor an Israeli. He is a Christian
>from Colorado who has admitted that he's a paranoid schizophrenic.

Tell me, Josh: are the other eleven Jewish supporters of the Rabin
assassination also paranoid schizophrenics?

Here is one of many examples:

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From: Colin Naturman 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel
Subject: THE TRAITOR IS DEAD!!! TRA-LA-LA-LA-LA!
Date: Sun, 05 Nov 1995 22:21:44 +0200
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Someone finally executed Datan/Rabin. Now, if they would only do 
in Aviram/Perez and Izebel/Aloni!

- Colin

Baruch dayan ha-emet.
--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:54 PST 1995
Article: 25286 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Criticism of non-Jewish Fundamentalists
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 14:19:42 GMT
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DrLaz@aol.com (Andrew Lazarus) wrote:

>Now, I would argue that recent developments in the Middle East make
>America's abandonment of Israel even LESS likely than before,
>REGARDLESS of the peace process. Some combination of factors has left
>many of the adjacent Arab states much less belligerent towards Israel.
>Hence, there won't be any need to jettison Israel to maintain a steady
>flow of oil to the United States, the only reason for which I could
>imagine the American Government would do so.

Andy,

You may be leaving a few elements out of the calculation.

Take a good look at Amos Elon's article on religious fundamentalism in
the current New York Review of Books, and especially at David Hartmann's
remarks within the article.

What if Baruch Goldstein and Yigal Amir represent only the beginning of
a major trend in Jewish fundamentalism and Jewish terrorism? What if
Jewish terrorism is directed not only at Israeli leaders, but at
American and European targets as well? What if a high American official
was "Rabin"ed?

There is quite a bit that could go drastically wrong in the U.S.-Israeli
relationship in coming years, and especially if the peace process fails
or if Israel succumbs to a civil war or if Jewish
fundamentalists/terrorists expand their field of operations to Western
democratic nations.

If moderates like yourself were permanently in charge of Israel, there
would be no problem at all. Americans would bend over backwards and make
major sacrifices to help you, because they like and respect you, because
you are family, a brother. But I am not confident that the Andy
Lazarus's of the world are going to be able to maintain control of the
Israeli body politic, which, according to Elon, is seriously diseased.
The Yigal Amirs of the world are not the brothers of Americans. I doubt
that the Sharons and Netanyahus are, either. We can only become family
by greatly reducing the level of ethnocentrism and tribalism in our
respective cultures.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:56 PST 1995
Article: 25298 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Lane Singer's Hatred of Religion
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 1995 18:25:56 GMT
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lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>                                                                     i pretty much 
>despise all religious cults equally....
>the more religions disappear from the face of the earth, the
>better in mine.

Note that Lane Singer, who claims to possess a "higher consciousness" in
terms of his wisdom, compassion and tolerance, hates all religions and
wants them to "disappear from the face of the earth." He is a virulent
anti-religious bigot. These are the same attitudes towards religion
which animated those Marxist bigots earlier in the century who
exterminated more than 100 million human beings.

That's the difference between Lane and me: I am a religious pluralist. I
say let a million religions bloom, and let each offer its insights to
the world. Every religion in the world has some important part of the
whole truth to share with the rest of the world.

The key issue is to keep religion separate from state, because without
that separation it is difficult to respect religious pluralism. No
religion should be allowed to try to dominate the others through
political or military power. Each religion should be allowed to sell its
ideas in the free marketplace of ideas. This is the libertarian vision,
which Singer dismisses with a few crude epithets.

Expressing these ideas, and suggesting that Jews for Jesus have as much
right to exist as any other religion, made poor Singer go nuclear. I
hope he soon climbs down from his tree before we have to scrape him off
the walls.

"that i'm light-years beyond you in consciousness is beyond your ken."
--Lane Singer

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:16:59 PST 1995
Article: 25324 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Suspcious death of Rabin's bodyguard !
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 00:41:52 GMT
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Xander  wrote:

>On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Wayne McGuire wrote:

>> Unless the left and the government start to answer all these questions
>> with great force and candor, they are going to suffer enormous political
>> damage. The campaign against the religious right has already come to a
>> dead halt, while everyone waits anxiously for answers to the legitimate
>> questions that have been raised.

>Well, well Wayne I am impressed. Someone is actually able to think a 
>little. You and I might come from opposite ends and you probably still 
>have a problem with those of us that are not too unhappy that Rabin is 
>not around, but at least you are honest enough to ask questions. And 
>there are many, many unanswered questions. But I do not think that these 
>questions will all be answered, and how will we know that the answers 
>provided will be the truth.

I've got to be totally honest with you: I was totally appalled by the
remarks you made about the Rabin assassination.

And I have strong disagreements with the religious Zionist camp in
Israeli political life.

But I am more a truth-seeker than an ideologue, and there is no way I am
going to check my intelligence at the door when it comes examining the
many weird anomalies surrounding the assassination.

At first I suspected that a conspiracy might have originated on the
right. Now I am not so sure. The eagerness with which the left seems to
want to bury any investigation into a GSS conspiracy angle on the
assassination is really alarming to me. They are quickly losing me, and
I hope they act soon to answer effectively all the legitimate questions.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:17:03 PST 1995
Article: 25361 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Lane Singer's Hatred of Religion
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>: lsinger@netcom.com (Lane Singer) wrote:

>: >                                                                     i pretty much 
>: >despise all religious cults equally....
>: >the more religions disappear from the face of the earth, the
>: >better in mine.

>: Note that Lane Singer, who claims to possess a "higher consciousness" in
>: terms of his wisdom, compassion and tolerance, hates all religions and
>: wants them to "disappear from the face of the earth." He is a virulent
>: anti-religious bigot.

>First of all, Wayne, take the blinders off. Lane is female.

I have known a number of male Lane's in my life. Lane could have
corrected my gender error at any time. Thanks for taking the trouble to
set me straight.

But what does Lane Singer's gender have to do with the fact that she has
expressed hateful attitudes towards all religions that are reminiscent
of the Nazis and Communists? She sounds exactly like Goebbels, Lenin and
Stalin on the subject of religion.

How can such a person attempt to pass herself off as an examplar of
compassion and tolerance, who is lightyears beyond the rest of us in
moral development?

These anti-religious fanatics tend be much more murderous than religious
fanatics. Check out the statistics on 20th century democide for the
horrifying facts. The anti-religionists have committed much more mayhem
than the religionists in this century.

By the way, are you also a female? I don't want to mischaracterize your
gender, and Jody can be either a male or female name.

"that i'm light-years beyond you in consciousness is beyond your ken."
--Lane Singer

"i pretty much despise all religious cults equally.... the more
religions disappear from the face of the earth, the better in mine."
--Lane Singer

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From wmcguire@cybercom.net Fri Dec  8 14:17:05 PST 1995
Article: 25365 of soc.culture.israel
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From: wmcguire@cybercom.net (Wayne McGuire)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Jody Eisenman's Knowledge of Jewish Affairs
Date: Wed, 06 Dec 1995 05:52:14 GMT
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iceman@intac.com (Jody Eisenman) wrote:

>: In other words, if one disagrees with both right-wing religious
>: authoritarianism and left-wing socialist authoritarianism in Israel, one
>: must necessarily "despise" ALL Zionists. These are the only two types of
>: Zionist that exist in Israel, according to you and Lane Singer.

Your analysis of Israeli politics that follows is poorly informed and
off the wall.

I would point to the vision presented in Shimon Peres' recent book as an
example of how a powerful and influential sector of contemporary
Zionists is trying to move beyond the old authoritarian attitudes of the
religious right and the socialist left. Peres is trying to redefine and
restructure Zionism, and bring it into the libertarian 21st century.

You and Lane Singer haven't given the least indication that you are
familiar with the debates that are going on in the Jewish world about
the nature and future of Zionism. You simply haven't made the effort to
read the journals and books in which this fascinating and momentous
debate is being undertaken.

One quickly learns in reading these newsgroups that the simple
declaration that one is a Jew doesn't automatically make one an expert
on Jewish affairs. One finds similar ignorance among many Christians and
Muslims about the state of the art in policy and philosophical debates
within their respective communities.

And this is an ironclad law: the greater the ignorance, the more the
ranting and raving. You can set your watch by it.

--
Wayne McGuire
wmcguire@cybercom.net
http://www.cybercom.net/~wmcguire/

  "Reason: to disagree without being disagreeable...."



From L9NQC@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu Tue Dec 12 17:03:19 PST 1995
Article: 18204 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: L9NQC@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu (EEE)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: How influential is _The Jewish Press_?
Date: 11 Dec 1995 16:30:24 GMT
Organization: *
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In-Reply-To: wmcguire@cybercom.net's message of Mon, 04 Dec 1995 13:16:19 GMT

In <49us7t$n0m@orion.cybercom.net> wmcguire@cybercom.net writes:
 The Jewish Press is a
> Kahanist newspaper which espouses extremism and bigotry in the name of
> Judaism, which has a circulation of over 100,000, and which has been
> cited and mentioned frequently on the Usenet and in the world media. It
> has high visibility. It is conspicuous.
   Most people I know who subscribe to the JP despise it, but read it 
any way since it is the only Orthodox paper that carries full reporting on
the Jewish world. Indeed if you were to remove the sensationalism and
editorial slant from the JP you'd be left with a decent paper. An analogy would
be a conservative reading the NY Times. That the JP holds a monopoly in
Orthodox journalism, does not indicate that mainstream Orthodoxy is extreme.
(Actually there are Jewish radio programs on NY stations, that present a view
that is more representative (than the JP) of the community.)  

> There is a larger question here: why hasn't the Jewish world in general
> been far more vigorous in condemning the culture of The Jewish Press?

  ALL the rabbis that I know, who have commented about the JP have condemned
it. The condemnation may not be organized as a visible 'anti-JP movement'
but it's  definitely there.




From L9NQC@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu Tue Dec 12 22:29:29 PST 1995
Article: 18388 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: L9NQC@qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu (EEE)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: How influential is _The Jewish Press_?
Date: 11 Dec 1995 16:46:06 GMT
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In-Reply-To: wmcguire@cybercom.net's message of Tue, 05 Dec 1995 19:04:32 GMT

In <4a250q$hni@orion.cybercom.net> wmcguire@cybercom.net writes:
> 
> That its readers take the Kahanist editorial content of The Jewish Press
> extremely seriously can be measured by the fact that the letters section
> each week is brimming with responses from those readers--nearly all of
> them expressing the same Kahanist viewpoint as the many columns.
    Irrelevant! The staff at the JP decides which letters get printed. 
 In any case the letters the paper receives do NOT represent the views of
subscribers.



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