Path: news.voyager.net!aanews.merit.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!news.tacom.army.mil!ulowell.uml.edu!umassd.edu!umass.edu!caen!spool.mu.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!osshe.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Ehrlich606) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler Re: FREE SPEECH? Date: 26 Jul 1996 11:08:57 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 34 Sender: email@example.com Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <email@example.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader In article <firstname.lastname@example.org>, email@example.com (Gord McFee) writes: > >In article <firstname.lastname@example.org>, email@example.com >(Ehrlich606) said: > >>>(2) Posen: Irving, in Hitler'sd War and elsewhere, makes what could only >>be >>>described as an "interesting" assertion as to the sense of the word >>>"ausrotten". > >>Gord, I don't normally ask questions with the answers in hand. Thanks for >>the answers. With respect to *ausrotten*, I am sure you are aware that >>Koppell Pinson, a noted Jewish historian and Simon Dubnow epigone, and >>therefore fluent in both German _and_ Yiddish, translated *aurotten* as >>*clearing out.* > >Mr. Ehrlich, you may have noticed that we have been around the "ausrotten" >mulberry bush dozens of times in this newsgroup. When the word is applied >to living things (see the definition below), it *always* means "to >exterminate". This has been settled. > > Uh huh. So take it up with the manes of Koppel Pinson, who, btw, I am quoting from his extremely germanophobe *Modern German History.* Path: news.voyager.net!clmx11.dial.voyager.net!user From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Jamie McCarthy) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Schott, Keyes, & Hitler Re: FREE SPEECH? Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 12:40:00 -0400 Organization: Absence Software Lines: 97 Message-ID:
References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: vixa.voyager.net email@example.com (Ehrlich606) said: > With respect to *ausrotten*, I am sure you are aware that Koppell > Pinson, a noted Jewish historian and Simon Dubnow epigone, and > therefore fluent in both German _and_ Yiddish, translated *aurotten* > as *clearing out.* firstname.lastname@example.org (Gord McFee) replied: > Mr. Ehrlich, you may have noticed that we have been around the > "ausrotten" mulberry bush dozens of times in this newsgroup. When > the word is applied to living things (see the definition below), it > *always* means "to exterminate". This has been settled. Mr. McFee then went on to establish, with the aid of a very thorough dictionary definition, that, when applied to living things, the word means "exterminate." email@example.com (Ehrlich606) challenged this, saying: > Uh huh. So take it up with the manes of Koppel Pinson, who, btw, I > am quoting from his extremely germanophobe *Modern German History.* Uh huh. What are you _really_ quoting from, Ehrlich? The title of Pinson's work is _Modern Germany: its History and Civilization_. Obviously you didn't have the work in front of you when you wrote the above, or you'd have gotten the title right. Neither did you, I'm sure, call upon your memory to dredge up a translation of one word from the middle of a 600+ page work. So I'd guess you were quoting a secondary source again, without telling us. Am I right? Would you care to name the source? I hope for the sake of your credibility that you are quoting a secondary source, because if you _are_ quoting Pinson directly, said credibility just dropped another few notches in my book. Let's take a look. This from p. 524 (in both the 1954 and 1966 editions): By the end of 1941 the decision was taken to carry out the "final solution" of the Jewish problem. "Final solution" always meant extermination. Directives for the action were almost always verbally transmitted from Hitler and Himmler through Heydrich and Kaltenbrunner to the Gestapo chiefs Mueller and Eichmann and down the line to the local officials. The extermination of the Jews was a subject not discussed by Nazi leaders in public. In a secret session with S.S. generals on October 4, 1943, Himmler reviewed the "clearing out of the Jews." "This is a page of glory in our history," he said, "which has never been written and is never to be written.... It shall be said on this occasion, openly here among ourselves, but we shall never speak of it publicly...just as we do not talk about June 30, 1934.... But we have fulfilled this most difficult task out of love for our people." Extermination of Jews was carried out first by [snip -JRM] Pinson obviously doesn't doubt that Himmler was referring to the extermination of the Jews; he mentions it three times in those few sentences. He was engaging in a little quoting of Nazi euphemisms to contrast those against what was actually going on. Note "final solution" quoted twice, a euphemism for extermination, and "clearing out" in quotes as well, another euphemism. Here's the section of the Himmler speech in question: Ich meine die Judenevakuierung, die Ausrottung des juedischen Volkes. Es gehoert zu den Dingen, die man leicht ausspricht. "Das juedische Volk wird ausgerottet", sagt Ihnen jeder Parteigenosse, "ganz klar, steht in unserem Programm drin, Ausschaltung der Juden, Ausrottung, machen wir, pfah!, Kleinigkeit." Where does Himmler say "[verb]ing of the Jews"? Only once: "Ausschaltung der Juden." Note that the verb in question is not "ausrotten." The first time he uses the verb "ausrotten," the object is different ("the Jewish people"); the second time, it stands alone. So Pinson _isn't_ translating Himmler's use of the word "ausrotten," he's translating the euphemism, "Ausschaltung." It's usually rendered "elimination," but "clearing out" might be an acceptable alternative I suppose. I have quoted that exact German text to you in email at least once, and have pointed you to the Nizkor URL where it can be retrieved, at least once, also. If you dug up the Pinson quote yourself, rather than having it shown to you, then you have no excuse for not doing your homework. Especially given your know-it-all attitude when you confronted Mr. McFee. If you found the Pinson quote in a secondary source, please share that source with us. So -- now we've been around the "ausrotten" mulberry bush dozens of times, plus one... Posted/emailed; please reply publicly. -- Jamie McCarthy http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/ firstname.lastname@example.org Co-Webmaster of http://www.nizkor.org/ Hate mail will be posted.
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