The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/l/lagace.ivan/cremation.009

From: (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dresden?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 18:01:28 -0700
Organization: rbi software systems
Lines: 169
References:  <4ppguv$> <4pq95k$slh@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU> <4psh8e$>
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0.5b5

In article <4psh8e$>,
(Matt Giwer) wrote:

> rjg@d31rz2.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:


> >The less intelligent deniers: Giwer, Moran, Ceacaa, and Beaulieu* have
> >tried and tried, but have been unable to present evidence as to the
> >physical impossibility.  I put the * by Beaulieu beacuse he actually
> >does appear to have a brain (demonstrated by his ability to do some
> >trivial calculations) unlike the other 3.
> Hey, Greenie, you are the person supporting a 20 minute cremation time.

From the _Internet Cremation Society FAQ_:


"Q. At what temperature is the cremation done and is this a standard or do
some facilities vary? How long does the actual cremation process take and
does this also vary with temperature?

"A. The temperature at which cremations are done vary based upon the retort
manufacturer, but most machines operate between 1,500 to 1,900 degrees F.
The actual cremation time again varies depending upon the type of machine.
Low capacity retorts take approximately 3 hours to complete a cremation
while high capacity machines take less than one hour. In addition to the
type of retort, the size of the individual and the number of cremations
conducted during the day also affect the time. For example, in the retort we
operate, the first cremation of the day takes about two hours and the second
takes about an hour. That is because the retort already has a high internal
temperature at the beginning of the second cremation.

Hmmm. From _less_ than one hour to three hours. Not to mention subsequent
cremations take less time than the first. Also, lets not forget that
_cremation_ is a strictly regulated affair. Even in Nazi Gemrany it was.
The deceased were cremated seperately (and completely) and the remains
carefully removed between cremations to minimize any mixing. 

In comparison, the _incineration_ of the Nazi victims of homicidal gassing
at Auschwitz was done with no such restrictions. This can be seen in the
_Operating Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration

"As soon as the remains of the corpses have fallen from the chamotte grid
to the ash collection channel below, they should be pulled forward towards
the ash removal door, using the scraper. Here they can be left a furhter
20 minutes to be fully consumed, then the ashes should be placed in a
container and set aside to cool.... In the meantime, further corpses can
be introduced one after the other into the chambers." (_Technique_,

[Note: the operating instruction fo the triple-muffle furnaces are the same.]

This clearly depicts an incineration process where the remains of the
victims are clearly mixed with each other. What this means, then, after a
corspes of the previous charge had been consumed to the point where they
fell through the chamotte, the next charge was added, being consumed above
on the chamotte,  while the partially consumed remains of the previous
charge(s) were being fully consumed in the ash channel.

What this means is in reality the incineration of the victims didn't take
just "20 minutes" (or 30 minutes, etc.) but an additional 20 minutes to be
fully consumed in the ash channels of the furnaces. But as this extra 20
minutes didn't impact the charging into and the incineration of the
corspes in the muffles, it was never, I believe, counted as part of the
incineration cycle-time. So, the actual time a corpse that took "20
minutes" to incinerate was really 40 minutes, while the cycle-time for
charging the muffles with corpses was indeed 20 minutes (or 30 minutes,
etc). Sounds pretty much like "less than one hour" achieved in some
crematory furnaces today.... 

> You are the one supporting 2 kg of coke for each body after the first. 

According the Walter Mu"ller, of the engineering firm Allach, in regards
to the fuel consumption of incineration furnaces:

"Mu"ller claimed that there was a direct relation between increased use
and increased economy. If the cold furnace required 175 kilograms (kg) of
coke to start up a new incineration, it needed only 100 kg. if it had been
used the day before; a second and third incineration on the same day would
not require any extra fuel thanks to the compressed air; and those that
followed would call for only small amounts of extra energy..." (_Anatomy_,

How small is "amounts of extra energy?" Two kg of coke's worth? 

It is also interesting to note that according to the _Operating
Instructions for Coke-Fired Topf Double-Muffle Incineration Furnace_ that:

"After each incineration, the temperature rises in the furnace. For this
reason, care be taken that the internal temperature does not rise above
1100C (white heat).... Thsi increase in temeprature can be avoided by
introducing additional fresh air." (_Technique_, p.136.) 

This, of course, supports the assertion that the combustion of the corpses
acted as fuel for the incineratoin process, thus reducing the amount of
coke needed to heat the furnace. 

In addition, Henryk Tauber, a Sonderkommando in Krema II, testified: 

"...As I have already said, there were five furnaces in Krematorium II,
each with three muffles for cremating corpses and heated by two coke-fired
hearths. The fire flues of the hearths came out above the [ash] collection
boxes of the two side muffles. Thus the flames went first round the two
side muffles then heated the centre one, from where the combustion gases
were led out below the furnace, between the two firinf hearths. Thanks to
this arrangement, the incineration process for the corspes of the side
muffles differed from that of the centre muffle. The corpses of
<> or wasted people with no fat burned rapidly in the side
muffles and slowly in the center one. Conversely, the corspes of the
people gassed directly on arrival, not being wasted, burned better in the
center muffle.... During the incineration of such corpses, we used the
coke only to light the fire of furnace initially, for fatty corpses burned
of their own accord thanks the combustion of the body fat. On occasion,
when the coke was in short supply, we would put some straw and wood in the
ash bins...under the muffles, and once the fat of the corpse began to burn
the corpses would catch light themselves...." (Ibid. p.489.)

"...At the begining of the cremation process, the furnaces were heated
only by their fireboxes and the charges burned slowly. Later on, as
cremations succeeded one another, the furnaces burned thanks to the embers
produced by the combustion of the corpses. So, during the incineration of
fat bodies, the fires were generally extinguished. When this type of body
was charged into a hot furnace, fat immediately began to flow intop the
ash bin, where it caught fire and started the combustion of the body. When
<> were being creamated, it was necessary to constantly refuel
the fireboxes...." (Ibid. p.495.)

Here, we can see that Tauber has indicated that the "incineration of fat
bodies" did not require much, if any, extra fuel.  

> You are the one claiming the above are possible.  

Indeed. As were, among others, Walter Mu"ller, Henryk Tauber, and by
inference Topf, the firm that made the furnaces. 

> These are not minor discrepencies.  These are the crux of the all the
> deaths of the "unregistered."  

No, the Giwer-Troll's "objections" are nothing more than the results of
rampant bigotry, prejudice, the lack of critical thinking skills and an
overabundance of denier dogmatism. This is hardly suprising considering

The Giwer-Troll is, as far as I can determine, an anti-Semitic troller
whose only interest is in slandering Jews and causing fights.  While he
can sometimes sound superficially plausible, he has profusely and
consistantly lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing
others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts
which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have
been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, blatant and offensive
anti-Semitism, Nazi apologia, and generally conducted himself with such
complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that there seems to be
no point in taking the time to read and respond.  For detailed and
documented evidence of this, please refer to



"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"

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