The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/k/kreiberg.ole/1998/kreiberg.9803


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar  4 19:24:39 EST 1998
Article: 165818 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Garaudy fined by French Court
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:55:44 GMT
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On Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:54:09 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>
>I know enough: he denies Nazi crimes, therefore he is
>a Nazi propagandist, and a follower of the Nazis.

Garaudy is in fact a former communist converted to Islam. How could he
be a Nazi? Nazis are supposed to be antisemite and his book is very
popular among Arabs. Arabs are Semites. A wealthy prince from Saudi
Arabia has even offered him to pay the fine.


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar  4 19:24:39 EST 1998
Article: 165894 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Garaudy fined by French Court
Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:28:33 GMT
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On Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:31:53 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
># Garaudy is in fact a former communist converted to
># Islam. How could he be a Nazi?
>
>It's a dynamic world. Maybe he was a communist. He is
>now a Nazi.

 Come on. He is a Muslim and like most Muslims he is an anti-zionist
too. This has nothing to do with nazism. In fact in Israel, it is the
Jews, who are the "master-race" and the Arabs who are the
"sub-humans". The Arabs and other Muslims feel that the Zionistic Jews
have stolen Arab and Muslim land from them. That is why they "hate"
the Israelis and those Jews outside of Israel, that support them .
Their "hatred" is rooted in a conflict over land. 


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar  4 19:25:28 EST 1998
Article: 129158 of alt.censorship
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.french,alt.censorship
Subject: Bully-Frog justice of the most outrageous kind
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 20:27:09 GMT
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 Are you French people not ashamed of yourselves, when you read the
enclosed article? Why do you care so much about what the Germans may
or may not have done to some Jews during WW2 more than 50 years ago?
You have not slightest responsibility for that and should just forget
about it. Are France an Israeli puppet-state or what? 

  
	FOCUS-French writer fined for questioning Holocaust

	By Thierry Leveque 

PARIS, Feb 27 (Reuters) - A Paris court on Friday fined French
philosopher Roger Garaudy 120,000 francs ($20,000) for questioning the
Nazi Holocaust of Jews in his book ``The Founding Myths of Israeli
Politics.'' 

Garaudy, an 84-year-old convert to Islam who has become a hero for
many Arab intellectuals, was fined 80,000 francs ($13,340) on a charge
of denying crimes against humanity. 

He was fined another 40,000 francs ($6,660) on a charge of racist
defamation for accusing a Jewish lobby of controlling western media. 

A few dozen activists shouted ``Garaudy Nazi'' and ``Garaudy to
prison'' 	outside the courtroom, insulting Arab journalists
flocking to cover the erdict. 

Garaudy had argued at his trial last month that he was only calling
for a historical and scientific review of Nazi crimes. But chief judge
Jen-Yves ontfort said the 1995 book ``outspokenly and systematically
disputed'' the Holocaust. 

The court cleared Garaudy of a charge of inciting racial hatred. His
publisher Pierre Guillaume, head of the Vieille Taupe publishing
house, was cleared of all charges. 

The CRIF umbrella group for French Jewish institutions said it
``noted'' the sentence against Garaudy but added it could not
understand why the publisher had been cleared. 

The charges carried a maximum one year in prison and 300,000-franc
($50,000) fine under a 1991 French law punishing the questioning of
World War Two crimes against humanity as defined at the Nuremberg
trial. 

The state prosecutor had called for a six-month suspended sentence
with a 150,000-franc ($25,000) fine. 

 Anti-racism groups had taken Garaudy to court for arguing that
Hitler's 	extermination of Jews amounted to pogroms or massacres
and that calling them genocide was an exaggeration. 

 He wrote in his book that ``the myth of the extermination of six
million Jews'' had become a dogma justifying Israel's repression of
Palestinians. He has also disputed the numbers of Jews killed by
Hitler and questioned the existence of gas chambers in death camps. 

Garaudy, who was not in court when the verdict was read out, has
denied any wrongdoing. 

Garaudy converted to Roman Catholicism after he was sacked as a
dissident from the French Communist Party leadership. He later
converted to Islam and set up, in a mediaeval Arab tower in the
southern Spanish town of Cordoba, a foundation which works to restore
links between the west and the Middle East. 

His book, and his charges that western media were 95 percent
controlled by Zionists, have made him a hero for for many Arab and
Moslem intellectuals. 

His book was prominently displayed at Cairo's government-run
International Book Fair this month. 

However, some critics saw overwhelming Arab sympathy for Garaudy as an
embarrassment, and others lashed out at Arab human rights activists
for campaigning in favour of Garaudy while failing to condemn rights
violations on their own turf. 

The CRIF said Garaudy's book had ``an anti-semitic bias'' and support
>from  Arab intellectuals and officials in Iran and Syria was ``a
serious step backwards for Israel and the Jewish people.'' 

``The CRIF bitterely regrets the silence of enlightened Moslem leaders
and intellectuals,'' it said. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Jewish organisation
 Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (New York) in ADL On the
 Frontline, January 1994 p. 2 :

 "The Holocaust is something different. It is a singular event.  It is
not simply one example of genocide but a near successful
attempt on the life of God's chosen children and thus, on God
Himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as
recorded in the Bible; and like it's direct opposite, which is
relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must
be remembered from generation to generation"


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar  4 19:25:45 EST 1998
Article: 73547 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.history,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.australia,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 09:57:09 GMT
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On 1 Mar 1998 00:38:22 GMT, KlausGuentherBeck@t-online.de (Klaus
Günther Beck) wrote:

>Ole Kreiberg wrote:
>
> The more
>> homogeneous a population is, the higher the degree of natural equality
>> and coherence will be. This is a natural law.
>
>There is no such natural law.

That is what you say.

> Homogenous populations are more prown to
>extinction. Diversity in the gene-pool allows it to adapt quickly.


 Denmark has been homogeneous from time immemorial
and is one of oldest countries in Europe and it has not yet become
distinct.

>
>There would be quite a difference. A lot of services would have to stop,

 If these services are very much needed, they will have to be taken
over by unemployed Germans.

>the pension and the unemployment-wages couldn´t be sustained any longer

 In sixties there were hardly any immigrants from the third world in
Denmark, and there were no problems with sustaining pensions and
unemployment benefits.

A lot of unemployment benefits could be saved if the immigrants and
"refugees" from the third world went home.

>and a lot of enterprises would cease to exist, because their propriotors
>would be gone.

There will thus be many tasks left for the many German unemployed.

> My father is in the IHK and so we talk from first hand
>data about things like this.

 What reason do you father then give for why unemployed Germans cannot
do these jobs.

>> 
>> > What logic is behind your words that
>> >they then become a problem? Should we limit their number? What number
>> >would you suggest?
>> 
>> The ideal will be zero.
>
>It never was. Anywhere, anywhen.
>
I said it was an ideal, not necessarily a reality.

>
>There is hunger in Germany.

Gee, and why don't  the German authorities do this hunger away. Hunger
would never be tolerated in Denmark. 



---
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk               Don't hate - separate
http://www.faelleslisten.dk         



From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar  4 19:25:45 EST 1998
Article: 73757 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.history,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.australia,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:49:39 GMT
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On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 21:10:02 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:04:50 GMT, olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>> I am just saying that the the Whites
>>as a group are more intelligent and creative than the Black as group
>>just as it has been proven in the Bell Curve. 
>
>(Can you tell me more about this curve? It doesn't ring a bell right
>now.)
>
 I bet that the controlled massmedia in the obscure and
semi-totalitarian Germany have not mentioned this book. Only
litterature in favour of the racial equality doctrin is mentioned. 


The Bell Curve by Richard Hernstein and Charles murray:

[From a bookcatalogue]
"The most controversial book on race and intelligence ever published.
The authors, both outstanding scholars, have documented in copious
detail that the ability to reason and solve problems is genetically
determined, and it varies from one race to another. Important
conclusions on dysgenetics as intelligent people marry each other and
have fewer children. 845 pp"   

>The average Black may be less educated but not less intelligent. Don't
>confuse intelligence with intellect.

 If they were as intelligent as Whites they would have been as well
educated. Look at Japanese and Chinese Americans. When they came to
the USA they were most despiced group and had status lover than the
Negroes. In spite of that they are today even performing slightly
better than the White group in education and intelligence tests

>You bring it back to the point here. Even though different race means
>different ethnicity it does not mean that different ethnicity is the
>same like different race. What you consider an ethnic problem appears
>to be a racial problem.

 As I have said before,  there are ethnic problems, racial problems
and nationality problems, and of course there may be cases where these
categories are overlapping each other. The differences between Germans
and Danes in North and South Slesvig are first and foremost about
nationality although their is an element of ethnicity too. The Germans
are Saxons who immigrated from Holsten to the deserted  area which in
ancient time formed the natural border between Denmark and it's
Southern neighbours. Holsten was conquered in 1202 by Denmark and many
Holsteners took this opportunity to migrate north into the empty lands
and from there the German lanuguage, culture and mentality spread like
cancer further and further north. The tragedy was that Slesvig and
Holsten became a duchy with a degree autonomy and with a majority of
Germans. This meant that the integration of the Germans were not
possible.  
 
> For you it's okay to have Germans living in
>Denmark (though they have different ethnicity!) but call it a treason

 Okay small groups of Germans that adapt and gradually become Danes
are OK. In Southern Jutland (North Slesvig) there live a German
minority and as long as they behave well, as they do today, they can
of historical reasons keep their German identity in this area. As
Hitler said, this is a local problem and should not come between a
good relationship between Germany and the Scandinavia. 

>if I intended to marry an Asian woman.
>If the crime rate among black people is higher than among white people
>it does not consider that at the same time white people have more
>chances in life than black people.

 Nonsens. This is just a bad excuse for the lack of performance. The
road to hell is paved with bad excuses.

>
>I do not beliefe that any of our problems would disappear if we had
>all people of different ethnicity moved out of Germany.

 All problems with their roots in the multiethnic society will vanish
into thin air.
 
> You refer to a "natural law" which in fact is proven the opposite way by
>nature itself. Just see at the different foxes, bears, seagulls (if
>not to take all birds into account) etc.

 Sure, and by letting people of different races live together in the
same society you will little by little create a mongrel race and a
mongrel culture and the original diversity will be extinct. This is
against nature. 

>The ancient beings on earth have disappeared from its surface
>_because_ they had not enough varieties to keep the species alive.

 I say that some varieties have rather through breeding within the
same group become refined and have evolved in the direction of
perfection. 

>What survived is the new species that had developed by mixed
>populations and some mutations. Nature has shown this way that a
>"clean" gene pool is not what it needs.

The latter has been a downgrading of the genepool rather than an
upgrading.

Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar  4 19:25:45 EST 1998
Article: 73758 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.history,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.australia,soc.culture.australian
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 21:49:41 GMT
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On 3 Mar 1998 00:03:24 GMT, KlausGuentherBeck@t-online.de (Klaus
Günther Beck) wrote:

>
>Cite a source for this natural law. Apart from this, nature makes no
>laws. Humans make laws. 

Hm. Have you never heard of physics? All the laws of physics are
natural laws and are thus not made by humans and cannot be changed by
humans. E.g. the law of gravity. The laws of heridity are natural laws
too. 
>
>Speaks the man who knows nil about economics.

Hm, I once took a degree in business administration. There were
courses in economy . 

> What you say is simply wrong. Most Germans are to
>highly  qualified and have learned too long to take such low-wages jobs.

Here you have the problem in a nutshell. The German employers want
cheap labour to exploit. 

 If there are many unemployed highqualified Germans and there is a
demand for employees to lowqualified jobs, someone will have to take
jobs to which they are overqualified.

>Quite rightly so. Apart from that, we have immigrants of the third
>generation living in Germany. They don´t speak the lingo from the
>countries their ancestors hail from. It is not practical. 

 Their parents were able to learn German so they will be able to learn
the language of their parents. What is wrong with learning a new
language. I have learnt several languages and I can see nothing wrong
in that.  

>
>You actually compare this bit of fly-shit on the map with Germany? 

 I say that this bit of "fly-shit on the map" is in every respect of a
higher quality than the semi-totalitarian monstrosity of Germany.

>We
>took a big number of immigrants into Germany because we needed them
>then. And they have become an integral part of our economic landscape. 

You can change things if you have the political will.

>If the enterprises are gone, then at first there will be a lot more
>unemployed than there are now. MAny jobs in the production-sector
>nowadays are superfluous. If foreigners holding these jobs would go, the
>factories would cut these jobs permanently as soon as they are free.
>This trend will continue in Germany and many other countries in the next
>20 years anyway. Try to read something about economy sometimes and
>abouit the development of automated production-circles.

 The more automationt  you get the less demand there will be for low
skilled labour from the third world. Look at Japan where the level of
automation is high. Here you will find very little imported labour
>from  the third world.

> That is the sad true, that many
>Germans prefer the security of a job to being self-employed. It is a
>matter of mentality. Apart from this, to open a business here you have
>to invest a lot of time and be quite flexible. Most unemployed simply
>look for jobs not for self-employment. 

 You will have to change that mentality. Before the immigration to
Germany from the third world there were no lack of spirit of
enterprise and initiative.
 

Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:06 EST 1998
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 10:23:36 GMT
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On 15 Mar 98 00:42:27 GMT, "Stern22"  wrote:

> It's amazing though that in our
>countries and in this decade there are still people who need to be
>instructed on why white supremacism or discrimination is wrong. I mean,
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>it's pretty basic stuff that (you would think) is learned naturally as we
>grow.

Instructed by whom? Do you mean by the authorities? Only a
dictatorship or similar authoritarian regime is  arrogant and
obnoxious enough to instruct it's citizens of what to think about
important matters. In a true democracy one debates the matters and
votes for the politicians that one may find that represent one's
points of view in the best way.  

 I think that ethnic separatism is the way to a more peaceful and sane
world. 
 

Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:06 EST 1998
Article: 74592 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 10:23:34 GMT
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On Sat, 14 Mar 1998 11:56:49 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>> I  still say that the White race is more creative than the Asian.
>>History proves that. 
>
>What history?

The history of civilisations. Most great civilisations were created by
the white race. Higher civilisation is an inner trait of the white
race  while the skincolour is just an outward trait.

 The ancient Asian civilisations were very much influenced by
Indo-Aryan India and I say without the Indo-Aryan influence they would
never have reached their high levels.  
 
> I quoted again what _you_ had told me. But it doesn't
>fit your ideology, so you simply skip the fact and tell the opposite.

 It is not as simple as you try to make it. Many factors are playing a
part. I am just saying that the most important part is that of race. 

>There is no logic behind that, yet there is no historical prove for
>higher creativity of Whites. If you see the Japanese technology and
>productivity you will even find the opposite. It was the Americans and
>Europeans who learned from the Japanese.

 This is sheer nonsene. The Japanese copied in a very skillfull way
everything which made the Western civilisation great and adapted them
in a succesful way to their own civilisation and became great
themselves.

>
>I doubt if this depends on the race. I have met Australiens, Americans
>(yes, also white Americans) and Norwegians who could not adopt to what
>we call civilisation here.

 Sure, you will find White people that are deeply retarded and you
will find some highly intelligent Negroes. However, I am talking of
the avarage level of the races - like in the Bell Curve.

> This is a too blurry word to be used for
>any proof. In addition, I doubt if our "western civilisation" is
>really that good and important and overwhelming to let us lean back
>and refuse to improve it by learning from other civilisations.

 No civilisation is perfect. No race or individual is perfect. If we
are progressive people we regard it our duty to perfect ourselves as
individuals as well as our civilisation. Total perfection may be sheer
utopia, but we can create more and more perfection in a relative way.

>
>> Even if two races
>>were equal in all respects they should not miscegenate.
>
>You keep repeating that statement. I can't see any evidence, yet.
>Simple repetition doesn't it make more true.

 I base it on the experience of history, common sense, logics and the
eternal laws of nature. What kind of proof do you come with? All
political doctrins about equality based on wishful thinking. 

I say that the first law of nature is selfpreservation. This law also
applies to ethnic gropups and nations. Even if your nation or ethnic
group does not appear "great" compared to others it is still your duty
to preserve and perfect it.

>
>And the Germans in Denmark do not belong to Germany?

In culture and mentality they certainly do. However the problem is
small, and we certainly do not want a repetition of the wars of
1848-51 and 1864, do we? The solutution determined by the1920
referendum was the closest to perfection we could come in this matter.
Let us preserve the present border and thereby secure peace and
harmony between Germany and Denmark. Remember even Hitler accepted
this border and those who want to do it away or have hostile ideas of
making the whole of Slesvig-Holsten one EU region are more aggresive
and Anti-Danish than Hitler. 

> They have a
>different ethnicity and cultural ancestry - all reqirements are given.
>What about all the Americans? They belong to Europe, Africa and  Asia
>by their ancestry.
>How far back in history do you want to go to determine who belongs to
>which place? 

 I say that North America and Australia belong de facto to the White
race. You cannot undo this. However you can carve a reasonable big
homeland out for an Red Indian, Aboriginal and even an Afro-American
nation. How exactly to straighten out the ethnic situation in those
countries  is not my problem and should be left to the inhabitants of
these countries.

>If Turks who were born in Germany do not belong to
>Germany you should at least go one generation back to tell they belong
>to Turkey. My parents belong to Slesia, but their places are now
>Poland. Their parents belonged to places in Germany and what is now
>Romania. If I trace this branch back I come back to Germany but to
>different places.

 Places like Silesia belong  de facto to Poland. They were conquered
by war and the only way to get them back is by war, and I doubt that
the latter will be worth it or even realistic at all.

>What about People in Bavaria whose ancestors came from Hamburg or
>Berlin, should they go back there? Remember, Germany did not always
>exist as today's Federal Republic and was just hundreds of small
>independend countries with their own culture, history and mentality.
>They united to form a stronger politial construction.

I think that Germany is one nation and one people.

>They didn't "prove" any insufficiency. They had just a delay given by
>slavery and the worse chance to get adequat education. They were kept
>on low education. Not because they were less intelligent but because
>they were black.

This is just a bad excuse.

>Again, there are no such problems. All the problems you have listed so
>far are based on different reasons, as I showed to you. None of what
>you called an ethnic problem is an ethnic one. 
>
Here we can't reach  agreement I can understand.
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:06 EST 1998
Article: 74709 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:14:17 GMT
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:46:47 GMT, look@signature.below (Alexander
Rose) wrote:

>Erm...
>India and Japan?
>India and China?
>Could you please tell me what they have in common?
>(Except being controlled by the bad, bad Jews, isn't that what you think?)

 E.g. Together with Buddhismen which originated in India, China
adopted much of the ancient Indian civilisation the same way as
ancient Germany and Scandinavia adopted a lot of elements from the
great Mediterreanean civilisations together with Christianity. China
is only one example. The influence of the ancient Indian culture
spread to all South East Asia and from their to Japan too. E.g. famous
temples such as Anghor Wat in Cambodia and Borubudur in Java were
built after Indian model and influence. The numeral characters we are
applying today, the Arabs learned from Aryan India and so on. 

Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:06 EST 1998
Article: 74725 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:14:24 GMT
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On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:46:46 GMT, look@signature.below (Alexander
Rose) wrote:

>I think seperating obvious idiots and morons from the sane people of whatever 
>color is the way to a happy world.
>
Hm, and  what does this reminds me about? The euthanasia policy of the
third Reich.
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:07 EST 1998
Article: 74726 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:14:27 GMT
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On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:09:16 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>
>Instructed by those who think differently about it.

And what right or authority do they have to instruct others? Why can't
others instruct them?


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:07 EST 1998
Article: 74744 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.sollentuna.se!news.oru.edu!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:14:14 GMT
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On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 20:09:11 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>This brings up a totally different point for me. Of course, we tend to
>consider our "civilisation" as the greatest. But this may only be true
>for us. I don't think that anybody is in such an independend position
>to judge correctly. What is it that we think makes our civilisation
>great? Is it the machines, the technology in general, our lifestyle
>and living standard that lead to destruction of the nature and new
>stress deseases?


>Our civilisation is the greatest for us. From an outside point of view
>it may look silly if people waste their lifes hunting for money and
>overbeating the neighbour.

No civilisation is perfect and our exagerated materialism is a negativ
trait.

>Have you ever been involved in a Russian wedding party? No matter if
>you belong to the family or are an absolute stranger, they will
>welcome and invite you. They don't care for the glamour of a great
>hotel. They put up some tables in a garden. Don't expect them to cut
>the grass before. All they go for is having a good party with a lot of
>fun and entertainment.

The Russian culture is a European and White culture.
 
>We have everything we consider necessary to make life great and
>enjoyable but are always longing for more. 

You will find greed and desire everywhere.
 
>That is nothing but an assumption. Without this influence they might
>also have reached a much higher level of civilisation. Again depending
>on what we want to consider as a high value for a civilisation.

 Creativity and innovation are some of traits of a higher
civilisation. E.g. the classical Greek civilisation was great and was
copied in those areas in which it came in touch with. This
civilisation was influencing other countries while it received only
little influence from outside itself.

>
>Finally again a point of total agreement. Now it depends on the way
>how we are going to improve. Instead of putting pressure on a society
>to create "clean" races in separated spaces I'd rather watch other
>civilisations and copy what I consider great there to improve the own
>civilisation. The closer my contact to them is the better I can watch
>it.

And what would specific do you want to copy from other Non-Western
civilisations?

>When nature gives mixed races a better chance to survive it is not
>logically at all to call "clean" races "enobled by nature".

What proof do you have for your allegation that nature gives mixed
race a better chance to survive. Most of the extinct higher
civilisations went down because of miscegenation. Ancient Egypt,
India, Greece etc.

> What you call political
>doctrins about equality is the actual life around myself. It's
>reality, not wishful thinking.

 I cannot see any equality around me. I can see no equality anywhere.
Where I work some people have higher positions and wages than others.
When I was studying some students got better grades than others. If I
watch soccer on the TV some soccer teams are better than others. If I
go to Africa or the third world I quickly realize that we have much
better conditions socially, politically and economically in Denmark. I
only see inequality and therefore I am not interesting in indulging my
self in the illusion that we are all equal. This would be both stupid
and self-deceptive.  

> Why should a harmonic environment be
>torn apart just because you cannot imagine it would be harmonic? The
>only explanation you gave for why a multi-ethnic society would create
>problems is the expression that a multi-ethnic society creates
>problems. 

I remember back in seventies  tourist catalogues of Lebanon describing
in which great harmony the different cultural groups were supposed to
live together in this country. A few years later the country were torn
apart by civil war among the same groups. I remember similiar
catalogues from Yugoslavia which I visited with my parents in the
sixties. I know that the Bonn-regime will say that all such civil wars
are due to some "Nazis" and their "hatespeech". If you just ban
"hatespeech" and "nazi"-groups the causes of such civil wars will just
vanish into thin air. Like the Jews were blamed for all problems in
the Hitler-era in Germany, the "neo-nazis" are the scapegoats of the
silly present Bonn-regime. Centuries ago it was the heretics and
witches, which were burned at stake in Germany.

>
>Again, there is no contradiction to that on my side. I was raised in
>an area where German and Sorbian people live together. Both sides
>develop and preserve their groups without the need of separated living
>spaces. They speak their own languages, have their own traditions and
>culture and there is no contradiction. They tolerate and accept each
>other and there is no ethnic problem at all.

 It is like in North and South Slesvig. However there were those wars
in 184-51 and 1864. I think that the Sorbians are so closely related
to the Germans that only little tensions, if any, may rise.

>Not at all. My opinion is that the same way you can accept Germans in
>Denmark even though they are of different ethnicity we can also accept
>Turks and other groups in Germany. If they behave well I don't mind
>them being here.

 I think that the Turks are too different to be be accepted as
permanent residents.They belong in the Middle East. 

>
>From the point of view of a white person you are right. But if you
>look at it from a simply historical view you should give the lands
>back to the Indians and Aborigines. In both cases the white people are
>exactly what you consider the Turks in Germany.

 I can understand that point of view, but it is far too late to undo
what has happened to North America the last 3½ centuries.

>
>How much of a land do you consider "reasonable big" for those who once
>owned the entire land? 

It depends on how big a percentage of the total population  they
constitute.

>What if the Turks in Germany said "We all move
>to Thuringia, take it as our part of the country and let you the rest
>of Germany as your homeland. So, Thuringians, get out of here and into
>your new homeland"?

No.Turks can only move to Turkey. Turks already have their homeland
there.

>
>Then you are wrong. That "one nation" is a political construction but
>doesn't reflect the feelings and self-understanding of the people.
>Bavarians call a bad person a "Saupreiss" (pig Prussian) without
>asking if he is from former Prussia. If one moves to Bavaria he is a
>"Zug'reister" (newcomer) even after decades. It takes generations and
>basically forgetting about the origin of a family to be fully
>accepted.

 Hm in Denmark you may find similiar difference between Jutlanders and
Zealanders. In spite of that both groups feel that they are hundred
per cent Danish, and it would be an insult to call their Danishness a
political construction. 

>The official German language is an agreement about what to call the
>"High German". It's not spoken in any place in Germany. It's something
>like you might imagine a "Scandinavian" as a convention made from
>Danish, Norwegian and Swedish dialects.

 The differences between the Scandinavian people may not be big but
still too big  to make us one people. A unification of the
Scandinavian countries was tried in the Middle Ages with the Kalmar
Union which all ended up with endless feuds and wars between Denmark
and Sweden. Later in 19th century during the national romantic era it
was tried to revive Scandinavianism but without succes. My opinion is
that it may be much more difficult to unite Europe than to unite
Scandinavia, because most of the European peoples are much more
different from each other than the Scandinavians. Kohl is such a great
fool and visionary.

>I understand myself as "Oberlausitzer" because Upper Lusatia is where
>I was raised. It's a region in Saxony, so I'm a Saxon, too. And a
>German, of course. But first of all I am human.
>
 I am first of all Danish. Secondly I am a Scandinavian. Thirdly a
European or a part of the White race. Forthly, theoretically and
abstractly,  the human race - in that order.


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:07 EST 1998
Article: 74894 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-xfer.mccc.edu!fci-se!fci!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:31:57 GMT
Organization: none
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <351023d9.1550245@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <34F66C19.3A69@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> <34F67D55.6E7D2D8F@Bishop.NET> <34F6FBC5.560C@oak.cats.ohiou.edu> <6dh43e$aar@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at> <34fca2aa.20628760@news.citylink.de> <6dnbhe$qcg@cantine.wu-wien.ac.at> <34ffc017.20981490@news.citylink.de> <01bd49f6$dda80340$57fd9783@UMR.umr.edu> <35026d21.23559917@news.citylink.de> <01bd4c7d$a83af120$57fd9783@UMR.umr.edu> <35065d47.22427526@news.citylink.de> <01bd4dec$6e719500$54fd9783@UMR.umr.edu> <35099458.18577856@news.citylink.de> <01bd4fab$d0eae9a0$54fd9783@UMR.umr.edu> <350c3331.1362729@news.citylink.de> <01bd527f$7099e520$71fd9783@UMR.umr.edu>
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On 18 Mar 98 15:02:21 GMT, "Stern22"  wrote:

>I don't think the real background is that hard to see... just like all
>racial-superiority believers, he fails to recognize that first of all, we
>are all human and have good and bad sides, can do good as well as harm.

But humans are still different.  

> And
>of course there's no science, psychology, sociology or history behind the
>argument. 

 The fact is that there is only little scientific knowledge of the
meaning of the racial differences, because it has been made a taboo to
research into this subject. When the antiracists say that there are
not enough scientific knowledge to back up racedifferency theories, it
is the same as scientitists hundred years ago said, that it will not
be possible to built an aircraft because there is not enough knowledge
of aerodynamics. 400 and 500 years ago there were not much proof of
the theory that Earth is round, so scientists tended to believe it was
flat.  

>Just a mere "because I say so, it is so." It's my experience that
>these guys have often had some kind of childhood or social trauma involving
>someone of another race and so develop feelings of hate to that racial
>group. I've never met anyone who became a supremacist without a personal
>reason behind it... same with the anti-government "freemen."

 Spare me for that pseudo-psychogical nonsens. I grew up in a totally
ethnic homogeneous enviroment. I was seven years old before I first
time saw a Negro and that was an American soldier in Germany where I
was on vacation with my parents. The negro walked on the pavement, and
my father slowed down the car  so that my sister and I could see this
interesting looking person. I can see no traumatics in this encounter.


 I just want to preserve the ethnic homogeneity of my country, and I
do not believe in all that antiracist mumbo jumbo and  propaganda.


>You sound like you have taken upon yourself the task of guiding our young
>generation out of the darkness :-) Seriously though, your effort is
>commendable. Not many of us have the patience that you seem to have. I for
>one, told Ole to go away after I discovered that he dared post a comment to
>my conversation with you.

Why would I not dare to post a comment to you? Who do you think you
are? If you do not like my postings, no one is forcing you to read
them or preventing you from ignoring them. I do not presume that you
are reading all the postings in soc.culture.german anyhow, so why are
you bothering abot my postings at all?


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:08 EST 1998
Article: 74946 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!nntp-out.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!newsfeed.wli.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews4
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:02:15 GMT
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On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:25:38 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:


>Being 35 I consider myself as one of the young generation. No, I don't
>see it that pathetic.
>I don't think Ole is stupid. He shows some good knowledge. He was
>probably told those ideas and took it as what they are - empty phrases
>that you can swallow if you don't think about them. But now he is
>thinking about it all.

 When I was a young a student in the seventies I believed in all the
political correct ideas about race. I belonged to the extreme
left-winged in those days. I studied much about antiracism but little
by little I found out that the idea racial equality was based very
much on faith and not so much on facts and reality. I became very
disappointed. I thought that racial equality idea  was based on some
sort of absolute truth and not just some political doctrins and
wishful thinking. So there is no way that you can convinced me. I know
antiracism first hand and at least  as much as you do. I have been
there and tried that. After I began to think independently I read all
that could of racial classics but were never convinced that this was
the absolute truth either. It is however my impression that racialism
is closer to the truth and antiracialism.   


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Fri Mar 20 00:03:08 EST 1998
Article: 74947 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:02:11 GMT
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On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:29:49 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>
>Correct. Different, but that gives no reason to tell we are better. This
>could only be done by some individual judgement. And this judgement
>takes an individual point of view. This judging person may be right or
>wrong which is to be decided by others.

As  I have told you many times before it is not so much a matter of
being better as a matter of not belonging together.

>
>Even after this taboo was broken and the research was done they couldn't
>find what they were looking for.

This taboo still exists.

>BTW, if scientific knowledge were so little, how can you base your
>ideology on so little?

 As I have said many times before I base my views on the experience of
history, common sense, logic and the eternal laws of nature. I have
never said that I base them on insufficient science.

>Knowledge is quite a lot, although there is still many unanswered
>questions. It's only "little" of the knowledge that could support your
>ideas.
>
>> When the antiracists say that there are
>>not enough scientific knowledge to back up racedifferency theories, [...]
>
>Did you ever consider the idea that even that little knowledge may
>already be much enough to contradict your view?

 I have never seen any scientific knowledge able to contradict my
views. I have seen a lot of political correct scientists making
political correct statements dressed as "science". There is not enough
scientific knowledge to make cock-sure statements for or against my
views. 

>
>> Spare me for that pseudo-psychogical nonsens. I grew up in a totally
>>ethnic homogeneous enviroment. I was seven years old before I first
>>time saw a Negro and that was an American soldier in Germany where I
>>was on vacation with my parents. The negro walked on the pavement, and
>>my father slowed down the car  so that my sister and I could see this
>>interesting looking person. I can see no traumatics in this encounter.
>
>How did you know then that this black man was less intelligent, less
>creative etc. than you are?

Come on I was 7 years old and I saw something unusual. That is all.

> How did you know that he has more
>differences than the looks?

As a child I did not think much about this matter. Remember that
Denmark was an ethnic homogeneous country in those days and it was not
of relevance to think much about this matter. 


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Sun Mar 22 23:07:13 EST 1998
Article: 75053 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:51:48 GMT
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On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:57:30 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>
>That's correct, also. You keep telling that people of different "race"
>do not belong together but fail to tell why. 

I have told you several times why. History is not able show just one
single example of something good has ever derived from miscegenation.
There are plenty examples to the contrary. Today there are many
multiethnic countries, and this situaltion is always tending to create
conflicts and chaos. 

>All your explanations are
>self immunizing in the way that people, who are different, do not belong
>together because they are different.

 Human differences indicate which group of people individuals belong
to.
 
>That arises the question if there really isn't enough knowledge or if
>you just cannot or refuse to see it.
>How can you be so sure that your view is correct if there is not enough
>scientific knowledge to base it on, even though it takes so little to
>even prove it wrong?
>
Let me quote an American scientist, namely the former President of the
American Association of Physical Anthropology:

"More serious are the activities of the academic debunkers and
soft-pedalers who operate inside anthropoly itself. Basing their ideas
on the concept of the brotherhood of man, certain writers, who are
mostly social anthropologists, consider it immoral to study race, and
produce book after book exposing it as a "myth". Their argument is
that because the study of race once gave ammunition to racial
fascists, we should pretend that races do not exits...These writers
are not physical anthropologists, but the public does not know the
difference"    


>But I do agree with Dan that there was probably something else in your
>life. It may be just some words of a person near yourself.

 I have some views. Instead of trying to dispute them you try to
explain them away with some misty assumption that there may be
something wrong in my personal life since, I am not conforming to the
prevailing political correctness. 

>
>>As a child I did not think much about this matter. Remember that
>>Denmark was an ethnic homogeneous country in those days and it was not
>>of relevance to think much about this matter. 
>
>Just let me grab that sentence and take it out of the context. I'd like
>to make sure about a fact that may be a misunderstanding. Do you
>consider Denmark still a homogeneous society or did it change? 
>
 It changed from homogeneity to heterogeneity a few decades ago, and I
regard this the most fatal distaster in it's long history.
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Sun Mar 22 23:07:13 EST 1998
Article: 75057 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:32:16 GMT
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On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:57:34 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>
>Thank you very much, indeed, for that explanation. You told me by those
>words that my assumption was correct. You were once tought by the very
>left and couldn't go along with these ideas (that's what Dan called a
>trauma).

Absolute bullshit. I grew up in a democracy where I was free to choose
any political ideology I wished. I choose to become leftwinged because
I wanted to rebel against society. There were very few people of
colour in Denmark in those day and I saw the struggle as of one of the
lesser priviledged Danes against against the more priviledged once. I
saw it as class struggle which I regard as differently from race
struggle. I also saw it as a struggle against American imperialism.
Remember in those days Germany kept a very low  political profile and
the USA was regarded the big dominating bully in the Western world.
This was during the Vietnam war.
 
> The same applies to myself. Being raised in eastern Germany I
>was always touched by the left ideas and couldn't accept them. 

You were living under dictatorship and you were not free to choose for
yourself.



Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Sun Mar 22 23:07:13 EST 1998
Article: 75058 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:49:36 GMT
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On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 08:51:48 GMT, olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>Let me quote an American scientist, namely the former President of the
>American Association of Physical Anthropology:
>
I am sorry that I forgot to write his name, which is Professor
Carleton S Coon, and the quote is from his book, The Story of Man,
page 187. 
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Sun Mar 22 23:07:13 EST 1998
Article: 75059 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:32:18 GMT
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Lines: 30
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On 20 Mar 98 21:25:26 GMT, "Stern22"  wrote:

>> 
>How about this: in the early 20th century German anthropologist Franz Boas,
>based on huge amounts of data, SCIENTIFICALLY concluded that, differences
>between people have resulted from purely cultural, not racial or genetic
>causes.

Franz Boas was a German of jewish descent.  A lot of scientists have
debunked or critized his theories. Where Arthur de Gobineau may be
regarded the father of "racism", Boas is the father of the anriracist
ideology.  Professor Henry E. Garret of University of Columbia
reported his observations of the doings of Franz Boas and his
disciples to the day of Boas' death. I quote:

"I knew Franz Boas personally. I was able to observe his influence as
founder of the science of anthropology in America... I was also able
to observe the increasing degree of control exercised by the [Boas]
cult over students and younger professors until fear of loss of job or
status became common in the field of anthropolgy unless conformity to
the racial equality dogma was maintained....I can testify from
repeated personal observation to the intimidation and to the pall of
suppression which has fallen upon the academic world in the area of
which I speak. It encompasses not only anthroplogy but certain related
sciences"    

Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Sun Mar 22 23:07:14 EST 1998
Article: 75070 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:31:07 GMT
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On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:34:53 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

> The less people own the more relaxed they are. 

I find the rich Americans and Australians as easygoing as their lesser
fortunate countrymen. The easygoingness is in the culture and the
mentality and not in the degree of lack of wealth.

>
>I don't think that welfare system is so good. It gives not only what one
>needs to live but quite some more. There are people who just know how to
>read the law and benefit from it. Some weeks ago there was such a guy on
>TV who doesn't work but gets more welfare than I ever had a salary. He
>said that his only job was to read the law and find ways to get even
>more.

 You should preserve the social welfare state while you are fighting
the abuse of it.

> On the other side the welfare and support is cut everywhere and
>those who cannot fight fall through the grid again. Then it takes the
>family again to survive.

 You want to go back to the 19th century. You are very reactionary.
The majority of the voters do not want to give up the wellfare state
and the politicians know that. 

>How different are people allowed to be to become acceptable by your
>ideology?

 People of ethnic European descent are acceptable as citizens of
Europe. All others are not.
 
>There is no need for them to leave. I gave you the example of the
>Sorbians.They have been living here for centuries without those
>problems you call multi-ethnicity the reason for. I would neither send
>them anywhere just because they are a minority nor because they are of
>different ethnicity.

The Sorbians have always lived where they live today and they have no
country of their own. Furthermore they are culturally and ethnically a
part of Europe. I cannot see a big problem in their presence. It is
like the Germans living in Southern Denmark. They too are a culturally
and ethnically a part of Europe, and if they behave well I can see no
problem in their presence either. In the very North of Germany there
live a Danish minority, and even the naziregime could not see a big
problem in their presence.  

>
>Why should minorities leave? Do you fear a minority? 

No, I just prefere ethnic homoneity of reasons that I have already
explained several times.

>Do you fear the
>Turks would become majority in Germany because they raise more children
>than Germans? Then the day would come when Germans have to leave Germany
>because they have become a minority. What excuse would you then find to
>throw Turks out?

Yaeh you better throw them out now while you still can, and before
they may become numerous enough to throw you out. Do you remember how
the Turks got rid of all those millions of Greeks and Armenians that
lived in Turkey before WW1? Today they are heavily oppressing the
Curds which are their only minority of any significance.

>>Again the problems of USA are not really my problems.
>
>I won't let you go that easy here. You are discussing general issues
>that do matter mankind. It was you who called it a natural law. You
>cannot limit a "natural law" to a few regions. Didn't you say yourself
>that they are eternal laws?

 As I have told you before, American racial separatists, including
Black ones like the Black Muslims, have suggested to divide the
country in different independent racial nations. The size of these
nations should reflect the proportional sizes of the various racial
populations of the present USA.
   
>Anyway, I was asking how you would react. The location doesn't matter at
>all. Would you share your house according to the headcount? Or now,
>would you leave your house because you have become minority?

 I have never said anything about abandoning the laws of property,
but  I would prefere to live with people of my own kind.

>>Again Germany is one nation and one people.
>
>Excuse me... Didn't I tell you about that just a few days ago? Read
>again what I wrote last Sunday. Message-ID
><350be9c0.40441286@news.citylink.de> (Mar 15)

And do all your fellow Germans agree with you in this matter?

>
>Of course you may deny it because it doesn't fit your ideas at all. But
>the world is not changing to fit your thoughts. You should be able to
>correct your view to match reality.

 I want to exert my democratic right to influence and oppose in which
direction the world should or should not change.
>

>38 countries have formed the German Union (Deutscher Bund) in Vienna in
>1815. Even that was not Germany, yet. There was still no central
>government, no comon laws, police or military. The black-red-golden flag
>had become the symbol of the German Union at the Wartburgfest in 1817
>and the Hambacher Fest in 1832, when the issues were discussed that
>finally lead to a German state.
>
>I don't think you will honestly beliefe that you can form one nation and
>one people out of several different ones within less than 200 years. You
>may stamp your feet and repeat again and again that Germany were one
>nation. But if you want to discuss you should face reality.

The German culture and language bind all Germans together. Being
bothered with the German population of Slesvig Holsten through
centuries there are quite an awareness in Denmark about this matter.

>> Why do the EU then try to infere with what  the citizens of
>>Non-German memberstates may be allowed to think about the
>>historiography of German WW2 atrocities? What has the treatment of the
>>Jews in German concentrationcamps in Poland to do with the e.g.
>>Denmark and Ireland? No Danes or Irishmen were there. Why are the
>>German atrocities in Poland or elsewhere outside of Denmark more
>>important to the Danes than similiar French atrocities in Algeria or
>>American atrocities in Vietnam? Germany is not the center of the world
>>although the Bonn-regime may think so. 
>
>Now we are finally back to where our discussion had once begun. To make
>my answer short, there is no other way for Germany to force such laws in
>other countries. The only possible thing is to convince them. You told
>me about the meeting of the ministers where they agreed to such laws. If
>you have forgotten our conversation already I will just ask you that one
>question again: How did Germany, in your opinion, put _pressure_ on
>Denmark to release this law?

 Hm and how did Germany pressure the Danish politicians in 1941 to
sign the Anti-Comintern Treaty which meant a prohibition of the Danish
communist party. This  German act of hegemony created great resentment
in the Danish population toward Germany. My father was an 18 year old
student at the time participated in the demonstrations against this
act. My father was never a communist like the majority of the
demonstrators. This event is regarded the one that ignited the armed
resistence to the German occupation. Communism was not a threat to the
Danish society back then as little as neo-nazism is a threat to the
present Danish society. Trying to pressure Denmark to prohibit the
Danish nazi-party through the EU may be regarded as attempts of German
hegemony and may rise anti-German sentiments as back then in 1941.
Denmark do not share a common destiny with Germany.    

>This law was certainly applauded by Germany and you may not like it
>because it limits your freedom. But it was released by the Danish
>government, not in Bonn.

There have never been passed such a law in Denmark concerning German
war-crimes. As far as I know from the press after the Danish
politicians had signed and left  some Danish civil servants added some
reservations, namely that this agreement may not have implications
which are against the Danish constitution (which meant that it may not
violate the constitutional guaranteed freedom of speech). In the 1994
there was a similar German pressure and some laws were changed or
rather stated more exactly in order to please our German masters and
oppressors. However  the Danish prime ministers told the worried
public that this did not meant a limitation of the freedom speech. He
said that the goevernment would fight racism while supporting the
freedom of speech.    

>
>You find the opposite with the Sorbians in Germany. You find the
>opposite among German states. You find civil wars within nations

 How many are these  Sorbians, 10,000 or 20,000. Do they want their
own state or to be united with Poland? Do they constitute a political
force at all?

>(Ireland). 
>Now, what sucks really? It's your obvious unability to ask for the real
>reasons of such civil wars.

 The real reasons for such wars are very simple. People want to live
in their own state and be governed by their own people.

> All you need is a scapegoat.

 A scapegoat for what? In 1848-51 and 1864  Denmark wanted  Holsten
with it's 100 per cent German population to go away and become a part
of Germany and this triggered off these two wars. Are you trying to
tell us that Denmark was trying to make the Holsteners scapegoats for
something?

What are you by the raving about when you are saying scapegoats? Are
this ravings about something from the experience of the nazi-era in
Germany and  therefore irrelevant to Denmark? 

> You call it
>multi-ethnicity but during the discussion you make clear that you indeed
>see different "races" as your scapegoat.

 You deliberately refuse to understand my points of view. I want a
ethnic homogeneous society because it is more coherent and
well-functioning. It is more peaceful and harmonious. It is easier to
create a high level of solidarity in such a society and so on. What
has this to do with making certain ethnic groups scapegoats? I am only
blaming the multiethnic society and the antiracist ideology for
causing the problems not any specific ethnic minority. The minorities
can live in peace and harmony with their own people in their own
countries.

> You tolerate different ethnic
>groups if they are white.

This is because I am racialist.

>> Remember when Germany were
>>uniting the first they got into conflict and war with was Denmark.
>
>What do you blame the previous wars on? German countries had been
>fighting against and along with Danes throughout history. You've got to
>see it entirely, not to pick out one war that fits your argumentation.

 Germany is traditionally seen as the heriditary enemy. It is fine
that we live in peace, in particular because the experience from the
1864 clearly proves that Denmark will never be able to win a war
against a united Germany.

>Can you imagine a white non European?

No, but I can certainly imagine a person of White European descent
living outside of Europe.

Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Sun Mar 22 23:07:14 EST 1998
Article: 75113 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!fu-berlin.de!nntp.abs.net!news-peer-east.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-backup-west.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!165.113.238.17!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews3
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:22:56 GMT
Organization: none
Lines: 192
Message-ID: <351575ca.1822409@enews.newsguy.com>
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On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 17:09:06 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>Americans and Aussies live in a multi-ethnic society. Which side brought
>this easy going to them? It's certainly not a German heritage...

 Until recently Australia was an almost White country. It is not the
multi-ethnic situation that makes Australia easy-going. It was
easygoing  before that.  

>
>That's what I wanted to express. Welfare should not be to give them what
>they demand but to help them to help themselves. Some can help
>themselves all the time, others hesitate or fail and finally give up.
>Those should be supported.

No one gets ill or old just to "abusing" the welfare system to get
some free medical care or a pension.



>Nevertheless they [the Sorbians] meet all your requirements to be not accepted. 

Gee. why? I thought they were White people. Remember that I am not
German and thus do not necessarily share your attitude toward the
Slavs. For the Danes Slavs are distant people with whom we have no
particular problems.

>From what I feel now even you don't see a reason to send the Sorbians
>back to where their ancestors had come from.

I will do everything that I can to avoid conflicts with other White
people.

>
>Did the Germans living in Southern Denmark, the Danes living in Northern
>Germany or the Sorbians in Saxony and Brandenburg ever create problems
>to support your idea that different ethnicities cannot live together?

 In 1848-51 the Slesvig-Holstener Germans made armed insurrection
against Denmark. The local Danish population still watch the German
minority with some suspicion and animosity.  

>... reasons that are nothing but scapegoats, as I showed you all the
>time.

 You keep babbling about your scapegoats. I just want to preserve my
race and my nation, and I can see no scapegoats in that. 

>
>Again, the reason is not that they CANNOT live together but DON'T WANT
>to live together. There is no logical reason for it, just the desire to
>show the other group to be stronger. They have some problems and blame
>them on those who are different. If it's not a different nationality the
>blame it on those of different race. If there is no different race to
>blame for it's a different ethnicity. If they are all of the same ethnic
>background they find other excuses.

 If you say to a Curd or an Armenian that he is of the same ethnic
background as the Turks you may very well end up with a kick in your
face.

>That is based on the same ideas like yours. If they came to discuss
>these homelands I bet they would end up in problems if they had to
>decide who should move where. Finally they would not ask for just being
>together in homogeneity but would all like to go to an area with lots of
>natural sources and fertile land. That's what really stands behind those
>ideas. No ethnic group would accept to live in a desert just to be there
>together without other groups. Don't you think that at the end they
>would rather accept sharing fertile land with others than having a
>desert for their own, no matter how large it were? 

 The Negros may get some of southern states with it's better climate.
This is their natural home area in the USA. 

>The German culture varies a lot if you travel around. What you know or
>will learn as the German language is an artificial substract of most
>German languages (today referred to as Dialekte). 

 I speak German and I have never difficulties in understanding German
dialects. Even Swiss and Austrian German I can understand although it
may sometimes be a little difficult if they speak too fast.

>Don't consider the Holsteiners representing all Germans.

The Holsteners have still much more in common with e.g. the Bavarians
than the Danes. The different German "tribes" have still more in
common together than they have with the surrounding foreign people.
That is why you have a Germany in the first place.

>
>Ole, I was not asking about 1941. You told about a pressure put on
>Denmark to join the EU and therefore agree to a law prohibiting the
>denial of Nazi crimes.

 Why will you German people not be so kind as to explain why German
war crimes should be of any particular concern to the Danish people.
Are you accusing us of having participated in them or what?  

>
>So, what are you talking about, then? Germany said you should have such
>a law.

How dare  you impudent bastards. :-(

> Denmark said no, we don't want it. What's wrong about that? Did
>Germany ever tell we would stop all or at least some connections in
>industry, culture or whatever? Did the Danish decision to refuse anyhow
>influence the bilateral relationship?

But I suspect that Germany will continue to bring this issue up and
perhaps they will band together with the fanatic French who have not
slightest respect for the freedom of speech.

>
>> However  the Danish prime ministers told the worried
>>public that this did not meant a limitation of the freedom speech. He
>>said that the goevernment would fight racism while supporting the
>>freedom of speech.    
>
>What's wrong about that? 

 Nothing is wrong with that. He withstood German pressure and proved
that he was not a wimp in this matter.

>
>Was it really that the Danes could not live together with the
>Holsteiners? 

 The Holsteners of course wanted to live together with their fellow
Germans. Is there anything wrong with that. Furthermore democracy was
brandnew in Danmark a that time and  it was assumed that democracy
would not work in a multinational state, so Holsten had to leave. 

>Or was it to gain some land? 

"Loosing" Holsten would mean to loose some land, wouldn't it?

>If the different ethnicity
>were a real reason, why can they now be accepted? Did the ethnicity of
>the Holsteiners change?

 What are you talking about? The Holsteners are as much a part of
Germany as the rest of the German states.

> Did the Danes change? How can you today accept
>them as being at least European if this was not possible in the last
>century?

 There are only few Germans in Denmark today. The 1920 referendum
which let to the  division of Slesvig settled the problem.
 
>My "raving" (it's more a relaxed smile) is about that you call something
>scapegoats for what can be shown or proven and have more scapegoats
>yourself to immunize your ideology.

 You do not have to develop an ideology to feel an urge to preserve
your people and nation.
 
>
>Why is the strong Germany not starting a new war against the "hereditary
>enemy"? 

 Denmark is too small to be considered an enemy of any significance at
all.

>Would Denmark start a new war if the Federal Republic fell
>apart? 

 The problem was settled in 1920. After WW1 and WW2 the possibility
was aired that Denmark could have got all of Slesvig. An area like the
southern part, populated by almost all Germans was regarded as
worthless,  and it was feared that problems like those in 1848 could
arise.

>If the federation were our guarantee to be safe from Denmark

Are you making fun? A military midget like Denmark would never be able
to make Germany feel unsafe. It is normally bigger countries that
threaten and dominates smaller countries.
 
> you
>will understand that Germany is interested in a larger federation,
>called EU.

Yeah, Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles auf der Welt.


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Mon Mar 23 19:25:16 EST 1998
Article: 75184 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!vncnews!HSNX.wco.com!usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu!gatech!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!209.150.160.22!newsfeed.wli.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Danish National Socialist Alert
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:09:28 GMT
Organization: none
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <3516cec9.10288575@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <6evmic$tfe$1@news.infonex.net>
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On 21 Mar 1998 06:26:20 GMT, use-author-address@[127.0.0.1]
(Anonymous) wrote:

>We must deny the holocaust to make National Socialism an acceptable
>political alternative again.

This indicates that this posting comes from an antirevisionist agent
provocateur.



Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Mon Mar 23 19:25:17 EST 1998
Article: 75185 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.sollentuna.se!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!Cabal.CESspool!bofh.vszbr.cz!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!newsfeed.wli.net!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews2
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Internet Censorship in Germany
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:09:23 GMT
Organization: none
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <3516ce71.10200299@enews.newsguy.com>
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Xref: news.trends.ca soc.culture.german:75185

On Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:28:45 GMT, mhuebner@isbmh.com.removethis
(Michael Huebner) wrote:

>>  I choose to become leftwinged because
>>I wanted to rebel against society. [...]
>
>Why don't you beliefe in these thigs any more? Was it that the left wing
>did not succeed, was it that they have given up, was it that they just
>vanished...? What convinced you to follow a so much different ideology?

  I did not so much choose to follow a different ideologi. I rather
rejected the antiracist ideology, because the more I studied it, the
more I realized it's  falseness. I am first and foremost fighting
against the antiracist ideology rather than following another
ideology. I feel deceived and deluded by the antiracist ideology. I
have never tried to live under communism or nazism, but I have tried
to live in a society where the antiracist ideology was prevailing.



Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar 25 21:42:37 EST 1998
Article: 75256 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!cosy.sbg.ac.at!wuff.mayn.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.swiss
Subject: Re: NAZIS RAUS! Mithelfen!
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:38:41 GMT
Organization: none
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <3517b5ad.4318564@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <6een0s$7ml@camel21.mindspring.com> <350BEF6D.33D3FA6@pobox.com>
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 Ich bin aus Daenemark, und ich erklaere hierdurch, dass ich nicht an
den Holocaust glauben. Was bin ich denn nach eurer seltsamen
Gesetzgebung? Ein Nazipropagandist oder ein Ketzer, antworten mir
bitte?

 Ich verstehe nicht warum ein Land wie der Schweitz eine Getsetzgebung
hat, die sich mit deutschen historischen Verhaeltnisse beschaeftigen.
Alle wissen ja, dass der Schweitz neutral wegen des zweiten Weltkriges
war. Eine Beurteilung eines Schweitzers wegen einer "falschen" meinung
ueber deutsche Kriegsverbrechungen kommt mir ganz merkwuerdig vor.
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar 25 21:42:37 EST 1998
Article: 75257 of soc.culture.german
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.direct.ca!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!enews1
From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Is Germany a nordic country?
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:38:43 GMT
Organization: none
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <3517b6e6.4632388@enews.newsguy.com>
References: <3510880B.54EFC6D@smartt.net> <6ercid$a9n@zwei.siemens.at> <35113D71.40662036@smartt.net> <6eu0fu$6df$1@elf.dlc.fi> <6f0lcg$3rp@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  
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On 21 Mar 1998 18:55:27 +0100, Johan Olofsson 
wrote:

Germany is a Central-European country. The Danish-German border marks
exactly where the Nordic countries begin and where Central-Europe
ends.  
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar 25 21:42:37 EST 1998
Article: 75281 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.swiss
Subject: Re: NAZIS RAUS! Mithelfen!
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 15:24:17 GMT
Organization: none
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <3517cf5a.10892723@enews.newsguy.com>
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:39:40 GMT,
heidrun@loeschdasda.mech.tu-graz.ac.at (Heidrun Kirchweger) wrote:

>
>Du brauchst nicht daran zu "glauben", der Holocaust ist eine Tatsache
>und keine Frage des "Glaubens".

 "Holocaust" war einmal allierte Propaganda. Heute ist "Holocaust"
antirassistische Propaganda. Diese Propaganda ist so schwach, dass sie
nur  mit autoritaerer und obskurer Unterdruechung aller Kritikern
ueberleben kann. Wurde die Kritik frei, wurde "holocaust" fertig sein.
Echte Tatsachen brauchen keine Unterdruechung von Kritikern.      


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar 25 21:42:38 EST 1998
Article: 75321 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.swiss
Subject: Re: NAZIS RAUS! Mithelfen!
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:41:47 GMT
Organization: none
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:39:10 -0800, Mathias Münch-Dalstein
 wrote:

>
>man kann an Gott glauben oder es sein lassen. Der Satz "Ich glaube nicht
>an den Holocaust" ist unlogisch.

 Fuer mich ist der Holocaust ein Kult - ein tyrannischer Kult wie die
katolische Kirche im Mittelalter mit seinem inquisition. Die
untenstehenden inquistionsgesetze der heutigen deutschen Sovjetjustitz

sind ein Schandfleck.  

>
>Am 15. Maerz 1994 hat der 1. Strafsenat des Bundesgerichtshofes (das ist
>das hoechste deutsche Gericht, das in Strafsachen zustaendig ist) in
>einem Grundsatzurteil zur Strafbarkeit des Leugnens der systematischen
>Tötung von Juden unter der nationalsozialistischen Gewaltherrschaft
>entschieden, dass die Verurteilung eines "Holocaus-Leugners" wegen
>tateinheitlich begangener 
>* Volksverhetzung (§ 130 StGB), 
>* übler Nachrede (§ 186 StGB), 
>* Verunglimpfung des Andenkens Verstorbener (§ 189 StGB) und 
>* Aufstachelung zum Rassenhaß (§ 131 StGB alter Fassung) rechtens ist.
>Der springende Punkt war, dass der millionenfache Judenmord in den
>Gaskammern von Konzentrationslagern während der NS-Zeit als Ergebnis
>komplexer historischer Forschung offenkundig (iSv. § 244 Abs. 3 Satz 2
>Alt. 1 StPO) ist.
>
>Wer ihn dennoch leugnet, aeussert damit nicht einfach seine Meinung,
>sondern der weiss entweder nicht, was er sagt, oder er begeht bewusst
>eine strafbare Handlung und muss sich gerichtlich verantworten. Das ist
>alles andere als eingenartig, sondern die Konsequenz aus unserer
>Geschichte. Und wenn unsere schweizer oder oesterreichischen Nachbarn es
>genauso handhaben, schulden wir ihnen Respekt.
>

 Die Scweizere sind  elendige Feiglingen, die sich zu der Wille Ihres
groesseren Nachbarland eingeordnet haben. 

Osterreich war ja ein Teil des dritten Reiches und hier ist die Lage
ja ganz anders.   

>Beantwortest Du mir noch oben gestellte Frage?
>
Siehst in naechsteer Artikel, bitte.
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar 25 21:42:38 EST 1998
Article: 75322 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.swiss
Subject: Re: NAZIS RAUS! Mithelfen!
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:41:49 GMT
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:39:10 -0800, Mathias Münch-Dalstein
 wrote:

>- Es gibt immer noch eine viele Millionen starke Juedische Community in
>Zentraleuropa, aber wir koennen sie nicht wahrnehmen.
>- Es hat nie Juden in Europa gegeben.
>- Es hat Juden gegeben, aber sie haben sich in Luft aufgeloest.
>
>Welches ist Deine Erklaerung, ohne auf die Shoah (amerikanisch
>Holocaust) zurueckzugreifen.
>
 Ganz einfach zu beantworten. Das Untenstehendes sind von mir in
English geschriben, und war an alt.revisionism gespostet gewesen:

 
  What really happened to the millions of Jews who lived in Poland
before  the WW2? 

At the census in Poland in 1931 the number of Jews is estimated to 3.1

million. However, there was a considerable emigration in the thirties
of Jews to  Palestine, South America, USA, France, the Benelux,
England etc. The  Institute of Contemporary History in Munich
estimates that approximately  hundred thousand Polish Jews emigrated
each year from 1933. Thus there arrived solely 68,000 to Palestine
between 1934 and 1937. Therefore it is estimated that there were app.
2664000 Jews in Poland at the outbrake of the war in 1939. After the
German and Soviet invasion at least 750,000 Jews escaped from the
German occupied part of Poland to the Soviet occupied. 
These refugees were spread all over the Soviet Union. Those who
refused to apply for Soviet citizensship were sent to special work
camps, where hundred of thousands died. In the Jewish Universal
Encyclopedia vol. 6  page 176 is written that the Jewish relief
organisation, The Joint Distribution Commitee in the beginning of 1942
organized relief to 600,000 Polish-Jewish refugees, alone in the
Asiatic parts of the Soviet Union. There were now 
757,000 Jews left under German control. 100,000 Jews escaped to
Romania via Bukovina. From Romania there was an escape route by ship
to Turkey. When the Germans invaded the Soviet Union in 1941, millions
of people were evacuated to the east by the Soviet authorities. These
were in particular the population of the cities and the towns that was
regarded the most useful in the armament industry. Most of the Soviet
Jews lived in the cities. After the war in June 1946 there were
240,489 registered Jews in Poland. (This was in the Western part of
Poland which was occupied by the Germans 1939. The 
other half occupied by Stalin was incoperated in the Soviet Union
after the war.) It is not known, how many Jews fled to Western Europe
and from there to Palestine and the USA at the end of the war.

 
Follow-up: 


John Morris wrote:
>Ole Kreiberg wrote:

>>  What really happened to the millions of Jews who lived in Poland before 
>>the WW2? 

>>At the census in Poland in 1931 the number of Jews is estimated to 3.1 
>>million. However, there was a considerable emigration in thirties of Jews to 
>>Palestine, South America, USA, France, the Benelux, England etc. The 
>>Institute of Contemporary History in Munich estimates that approximately 
>>hundred thousand Polish Jews emigrated each year from 1933.

>And they said this where exactly?

Yes

>> Thus there 
>>arrived solely 68000 to Palestine between 1934 and 1937. Therefore it is 
>>estimated that there were app. 2664000 Jews in Poland at the outbrake of 
>>the war in 1939. After the German and Soviet invasion at least 750000 
>>Jews escaped from the German occupied part of Poland to the Soviet occupied.

>And who says this? Where?

There are a lot of sources which confirm this (Excerpts from Walter
Sanning, The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry):

  Nine years after WW2 on September 22 and 23, 1954 an investigating
commitee  of the US House of Representatives (Select Commitee on
Communist Aggression) conducted hearings where representatives of
several Jewish organizations testified under oath on the subject of
the persecution of Jews by the Soviets.
One Herschel Weinrauch, formerly an associate editor of the Soviet
newspaper The Star, declared that he was an official in the civil
administration of Bialystok following the Soviet occupation in 1939.
In his testimony he saidthe Communists made all refugee Jews from
German-occupied Poland choose in spring of 1940 between accepting
Soviet citizenship or returning to German control.
  Because of the barbarian treatment accorded to these Jews from the
western portion of divided Poland by the Soviets most of them opted
for a return. Shortly thereafter, though, the Soviet government
arrested all those who had  decided to return and transported them to
Siberia. In Bialystok alone, 50-60,000 Jewish refugees were arrested.
All in all, the Soviet deported roughly one million Jewish refugees
>from  western Poland to Siberia. (Source:Treatment of Jews by the
Soviet. 17th Interim Report of Hearings before the Select Commitee on
Communist Aggression, House of Representatives, 83rd
Congress, New York, September 22 and 23, 1954 p. 40.)
  Another witness, Bronislaw Teichholz, chairman of the International 
Commitee for Jewish refugees from Concentration Camps from 1945 to
1952 confirmed Weinrauch's testimony. At that time he had been working
in Lvov where about 50,000 Jewish refugees had decided to return; all
of them were deported by the Soviets, in the process crowding 70 to 80
persons into railroad cars and then moving them eastward.
  A third witness, Adolph Held, chairman of the Jewish Labor commitee,
was absent due to an incident of death in his family, but he had his
testimony read to the investigating commitee by the vice chairman,
Jacob T Zukerman. This witness, too, confirmed that up to one million
Jews escaped to Russia. Another witness, Henry Edward Schultz,
national chairman of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith, put
the number of Jewish refugees from western Poland deported on Stalin's
orders to Siberian labor camps at 600,000; 450,000 of these
unfortunate people have vanished without a trace.
  The Polish Goverment-in-Exile, too, declared the Soviets deported   
600,000 Jewish refugees from western Poland in the spring of 1940. The
Jewish statistician J Kulischer, asserted that Stalin "evacuated"
530,000 Jews - 500,000 from eastern Poland and 30,000 from the Baltic
countries.(Source: Gedeon Haganov, Le Communisme and les "juifs")
Other Jewish sources arrive at even lower figures.
  Rabbi Aaron Pechenick described the Soviet mass deportation in his
book, Zionism and Judaism in Soviet Russia published in New York in
1943 as follows:

  "In two days and two nights [end of June 1940] almost one million
jews  were loaded into cattle waggons under the most horrible
circumstances and deported to Siberia and the Ural. ... The terrible
journey lasted from   four to six weeks. Having arrived at their
destinations the Jews obtained   only bread and water to sustain their
lives after the long working days in the forest."

The Joint Distribution Commitee wrote in it's bulletin of June 1943:

  " From a fifth to a third of the number of refugees died... whoever
did not see the thousands of graves, mostly of children, cannot
understand"  

 From Encyclopedia Judaica, vol. 11 p.184 you can find the following:

 "With the outbreak of the war in September, the Poles began to loot
stores and attack the Jews ... the Jews were deported by the Germans
[September 1939] to the area under Soviet control on the other side of
the San River.
... Those who were deported to the Soviet Zone lived there in very
difficult  economic conditions. In the summer of 1940 many of them
were deported to the Soviet interior."


>Martin Gilbert indicates that 250,000 Jews escaped eastward from
>Poland (_Atlas of the Holocaust_, p.36).

>>These refugees were spread all over the Soviet Union. Those who refused to 
>>apply for Soviet citizensship were sent to special work camps, where hundred 
>>of thousands died.

>And who says this? Where?

See above

>> In the Jewish Universal Encyclopedia vol. 6  page 176 is 
>>written that the Jewish relief organisation, The Joint Distribution 
>>Commitee in the beginning of 1942 organized relief to 600000 Polish-Jewish 
>>refugees, alone in the Asiatic parts of the Soviet Union.

>These 600,000. Are they specified as Jews fleeing from Poland in the
>wake of the Nazi invasion, or were they emigrants from the period
>1933-39?

As Jews fleeing from the Nazi invasion. I do not think that Stalin's
Soviet  Union ever received any immigrants at all.


>Hey, wait a second. You already subtracted these as people that
>escaped to the Soviet Union three paragraphs ago.

No, No and No. The 600,000 is comprised in the 750,000. 


>> Most of the Soviet Jews lived in the cities. After 
>>the war in June 1946 there were 240489 registered Jews in Poland. (This was 
>>in the Western part of Poland which was occupied by the Germans 1939. The 
>>other half occupied by Stalin was incoperated in the Soviet Union after the 
>>war.) It is not known, how many Jews fled to Western Europe and from there 
>>to Palestine and the USA at the end of the war.

>What the hell? You still had 950,000 Jews still alive in Poland even
>after double subtracting the escapees. Where are the other 700,000?
>Fudged away in the great "we don't know?"

Remember that Stalin kept his part of Poland, where almost half of the

pre-war Jews lived. How many were there after the war in this area,
and how many were evacuated? 

>Now explain whatever possessed the Nazis to conclude at the Wansee
>Conference on January 20, 1942 that there were 2,704,000 Jews in the
>Polish territories under their control.

 I think that they were exaggerating the size of the socalled "Jewish 
Danger" of political and ideological reasons. I do not understand why
you always have so much faith in the credibility of the nazis. It is
much more common for dictatorships than democracies to exaggerate,
distort and lie.             


In article <4gc8rr$qj4@sat.ipp-garching.mpg.de>, Jean-Marc Schwartz
wrote:
>In article <-5GAnOev1Gx2065yn@login.dknet.dk>, Ole Kreiberg (olk@login.dknet.dk) 
>says...
>>
>>  What really happened to the millions of Jews who lived in Poland before 
>>the WW2? 
>>
>>(...)
>
>
>Your mathematics look foreign to me :
>you have 1914000 Jews in the German occupied part of Poland in 1939,
>and 240489 in 1946. What with the difference ?

  You forget that all the Jews living in the area occupied by the
Soviets. Remember that Poland never got this part back from the
Sovjets. The 240,489 is the number living in Western Poland. We do not
know how many lived in Eastern Poland after the war.

  In 1939 the Jews in Poland was dispersed as follows:

              Areas incoperated  by Germany    534,000  (20.3 %)
              Government General of Poland   1,073,000  (40.8 %)
              ------------------------------------------------
              Under German administration    1,607,000  (61.0 %)
              Annexed by the Soviet Union      1,026,000  (39.0 %)
              ------------------------------------------------
              Former Polish Jews (1939)      2,633,000  (100.0%)

  After the escape of of at least 750000 Jews from Western Poland to 
  Soviet occupied Eastern Poland:

              Areas under German control      757,000  (28.8 %)
              Areas under Soviet control      1,776,000  (67.5 %) 
              Refugees in Rumania                  100,000  ( 3.8 %)
              ------------------------------------------------
              Polish Jews (end of 1939)      2,633,000  (100.0%)
>
>If "it is not known, how many Jews fled to Western Europe and from there 
>to Palestine and the USA" is your only argument, you can pack in your theory.


Jews in Western Poland in the end of 1939 757,000
and after the war                                              240,489


----------------------------------------------------
Number of Jews missing from the statistics    516,511 

  How many of these Jews were killed by the Germans, how many died
>from  the many epidemics of typhoid fever, and how many fled to the
west at the end of the war?


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar 25 21:42:38 EST 1998
Article: 75324 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Danish National Socialist Alert
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:59:47 GMT
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On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:02:37 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>Not necessarily, nazi-boy. See the following article, from
>Reuben Logsdon. Do you claim he's an "antirevisionist agent
>provocateur", or a "Zionist"? No, he was just more honest
>than you and the rest of the nazoid trashies.
>
 Face the fact that the majority of all revisionists are not nazis.
Unfortunately I do not know this Reuben Logsdon. It is of course
obvious that neo-nazis can use revionism in their propaganda. To me
nazism was a phenomenon belonging to a bygone historical era and
confined to Germany only ( German speaking Austria was regarded a part
of  Germany). I am only interested in the Truth, and I do not think
that real Truth has to be supported with such bizarre "laws" as those
in Germany and France. Remember it was the French legislators that
inspired me to study revisionism in the first place.     
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Mar 25 21:42:48 EST 1998
Article: 55917 of soc.culture.nordic
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Is Germany a nordic country?
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:38:43 GMT
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On 21 Mar 1998 18:55:27 +0100, Johan Olofsson 
wrote:

Germany is a Central-European country. The Danish-German border marks
exactly where the Nordic countries begin and where Central-Europe
ends.  
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Apr  1 02:42:04 EST 1998
Article: 75559 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.european-union,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: VEREINIGUNG EUROPAS - SCHLECHTE IDEE
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:35:58 GMT
Organization: none
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On 26 Mar 1998 18:43:36 GMT, a2577348@smail.Uni-Koeln.DE (Armin
Forker) wrote:

>Du scheinst einen 'natuerlichen Nationalismus' anzunehmen. Diese Annahme
>ist leicht zu widerlegen: Vor 1789 gab es ueberhaupt keinen Nationalismus.

 In Deutschland vielleicht. In Danemark ist es immer starke
Nationalbewusssein gegen die suedlichen Nachbaren gegeben. Die andere
Skandinavische Voelker waren und sind noch Bruedervoelker waehrend die
Deutschen ein Vremdvolk war und noch sind.

>In Boehmen ist er erst seit 1848 erwachsen. Vorher hatte niemand ein
>Problem damit, Deutsch zu sprechen (was sie in der EU nicht muessen),
>Tschechisch musste geradezu neu erfunden werden, da keine neuen Woerter
>seit dem 16. Jh. mehr geschaffen worden waren.

 Sehr dunkle Geschichte fuer die Tschechen. Dank zu der Vorschritt ist
der Tschechei heute ein freies und selbstaendiges Land.  

>
>Der Nationalismus ist der Feind, nicht die freiwillige Einigung.

 Weil Deutschland in seinem Geschichte Problemen mit Nationalismus zu
handtieren gehabt hat, brauchen die andere Laender nicht die selbe
Problemen haben. Nationalismus in Daenemark ist ein Schutz gegen sein
grosses Nachtbarland. Diese nationalismus muss in der Zukuenft
verstaerkt werden, um die Harmonie und die Freiheit des Daenische
Volkes zu sichern.   

>Du als Binnenlaender hast gut Reden - bewache mal einige tausend Kilometer
>Kueste! Einen Zusammenhang zwischen Laenge der Grenze und
>Kriminalitaetsrate muesstest du erst mal belegen.

Die Grenze zwischen Deutschland und Daenemark muss auch aus
Psykologischen Grunden bewaehren werden.   


Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Apr  1 02:42:05 EST 1998
Article: 75705 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.history,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: What does this have to do with German Culture
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:09:58 GMT
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On Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:00:29 -0600, mhuebner@isbmh.com wrote:

>I was pretty sure you would come to that point that incompatibility of
>different ethnic groups is not the reason. You see no problem with Germans and
>Sorbians because they are white Europeans. How does this now compare to your
>previous explanation concerning former Yugoslavia? Aren't Serbs and Croats
>also white Europeans? What excuse will you find now for that civil war?

As I have told you before there are other problems than ethnic
problems. There can be  problems between nationalities, between
socio-economical groups (classes) within the same ethnic group and
nationality, between different political parties etc. There are all
sorts of problems. I think that in the former Yugoslavia the problems
are conflicts between nationalities and cultural groups rather than
ethnic groups. Serbs, Croats and Bosnian Muslims are all Serbo-Croats
which mean that they belong to the same ethnic group.


>>  In 1848-51 the Slesvig-Holstener Germans made armed insurrection
>> against Denmark. The local Danish population still watch the German
>> minority with some suspicion and animosity.
>
>Okay, was all this an ethnic problem? If yes, why is it not today? Ethnicity
>didn't change.

 This problem has more to do with nationality than with ethnicity.
Danes and Germans have been intermarrying for centuries. You cannot
tell the nationality of a Slesviger from the surname.  

>Not your race and nation are scapegoats, Ole. It's the explanation that
>different ethnic groups cannot live together in peace. 

 Take a look at the former Yugoslavia, Libanon, Sri Lanka etc and you
will understand. Now, I know you will come up with the usual quibble
that this or that problem may rather has do with nationality, culture
etc. and I will repeat again that these problems are sometime
overlapping each other and may have or have not ethnic elements in
them. 

 
>That is the scapegoats
>for other problems that may but do not necessarily occur between ethnic
>groups. It's too easy to blame different ethnicity for those conflicts that
>are based on something different. 

 Your scapegoats are some mystical nationalistic leaders that are
creating the problems, and then are seducing the people to follow
them.  

>You cannot consider ethnicity a reason and
>at the same time limit it to different races. Then you should call different
>races the reason, not the ethnicity. Ethnicity differs within the same race.
>But even if you called races the reason it would be simple again to repeat our
>discussion in this direction.

 It is exactly what I am trying to tell you that the problems may
soemtimes be complex.

>>  If you say to a Curd or an Armenian that he is of the same ethnic
>> background as the Turks you may very well end up with a kick in your
>> face.
>
>Why should I say so? Of course, even though they are of the same race they are
>of different ethnicity! 

 You seem to know very little about ehnicity. Armenian and Curdish
language are as different from Turkish  as German from Chinese. These
people are not of the same ethnicity. I have never heard any
anthropologist or historian diagree with that.  

>>  The Negros may get some of southern states with it's better climate.
>> This is their natural home area in the USA.
>
>This is where they had been brought to from Africa. It was the white people
>who settled them there. That doesn't make it a "natural home". 

Sure. Their natural home may rather be in Africa.

>The Indian
>reservations are not the "natural homes" of those peoples whose natural home
>was the entire continet.

 The tribal way of life as hunters and subsistance farmers belongs to
a bygone era. You cannot recreate that. What has happened has happened
and there is no way that you  cannot redo it.  Germany lost large
eastern parts in WW2 and it will be unrealistic to think that you will
ever get that back again. It is now settled with Poles and Russians
like Southern Slesvig, which originally was Danish land, is now
settled with Germans. This land is lost like the Indians have lost
most of theirs.      

>Austrians have much more in common with the Bavarians than Holsteiners.
>Saarlanders have much in common with the French. 

 But the Holsteners have still more in common with the Austrians and
the Bavarians than with the Danes.

>The differences especially
>between northern and southern Germans are much bigger than the ones between
>Danes and Norwegians. Of course, the distance is also greater. What we have as
>Germany is something like Denmark, Norway and Sweden would be if they united.

 Swiss and Austrian German are written the same way as High German,
while Swedish and Danish are written quite differently. Denmark and
Norway were in many centuries united like Germany, and in Norway you
will find a deep Danish influence in language and culture.   

>If you wouldn't deny the German war crimes it would be of no interest at all
>if any country had a law like this. Even we wouldn't need such a law.

It is none of your businesses what Danish people are thinking of your
history and war crimes. As a Dane I can shove them all up my ass and
forgetting them totally, and you canot nothing about that.

> What is
>wrong about a law to tell the truth?

In a democracy the citizens should be free to seek the truth even if
they  make mistakes their endeavour. It has nothing to do with
democracy that the state is dictating the citizens it's version of the
truth. 

And what is that "truth" based on? Some jewish witnesses and some
German officials, the reliability  of whom, I have not much confidence
in.

>
>Ah, we come closer to the point again. It's not that Germany put any pressure
>on Denmark but just what you suspect. Don't sell us your nightmares as
>reality.

 Most Danes don't really like the Germans much and watch them with
some distrust. It has been so from time immemorial. 

>But you have developed it (not really you, but you are one who carries it) to
>preserve your people and nation by suppressing others.

 I certainly do not want to suppress other peoples. No I want to
deport all people who have their roots in the third world once and for
all, that is all. I could never accept living together with them like
the Whites did in South Africa during the Apartheid-era.

>I don't even see a danger for Denmark from its "hereditary enemy" Germany. The
>simple fact of the size doesn't make us more or less violent.

 But because you are bigger you can dominate us politically and
economically. Like in nature where the bigger fish eats the smaller
one,  big countries have a tendency to swallow up smaller countries.
This is the problem in a nutshell.

>
>But now, if we just imagine the German federation fell apart, would Denmark
>then fight the smaller German countries? Why?

As long as they respect the border from 1920 there ought not to be a
problem.

>> Yeah, Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles auf der Welt.
>
>Now you are making fun. First you fear a federation that is bigger than
>Denmark, then you fear the federation that might include Denmark and protect
>it this way. To make the fun complete you don't see that the EU is made of
>more than just Germany. To be correct you should at least say Europe, Europe
>ueber alles...

Why not Deutsches Europa, Deutsches Europa ueber alles, oder besser
Deutschland, Deutschland ueber alles in Europa. 
Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org


From kreiberg@newsguy.com Wed Apr  1 02:42:05 EST 1998
Article: 75721 of soc.culture.german
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From: olk@patriot.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.swiss
Subject: Re: NAZIS RAUS! Mithelfen!
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:05:22 GMT
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On 29 Mar 1998 01:10:45 GMT, Lima-Kilo@t-online.de (Luke) wrote:

>
>Bielefeld gibt es nicht; Bielefeld ist eine Erfindung von *Ihnen*,
>um ihre finsteren Machenschaften zu verbergen... 
>(kennt jemand tatsächlich  einen Menschen, der wirklich aus
>*Bielefeld* kommt ?)

 Es is in Deutschland nicht verboten zu sagen, dass Bielefeld nicht
existiert. Nur Kritik des sogennanntes holocaust ist verboten. Warum?
Diese Tatsache hatte mir urspruenglich aufmerksam und skeptisch
gemacht.  

>
>Die Russen haben 1940 Albert Einstein entführt, der Typ in den alten
>Filmen ist ein Double ! 
>Daher ist die Behauptung, die Amis hätten am 06.08.45 Hiroshima
>mittels einer Atombombe zerstört, reine Propaganda !
>In Wahrheit hat Stalin den Tenno bereits 1944 zur Kapitulation 
>überredet, einfach mit der Drohung, in Zukunft keine Videorecorder
>der Marke SONY mehr zu kaufen...
>Das imperialistische Amerika hat lediglich die Tatsachen zu seinen
>Gunsten verdreht !

Du kannst die obenerwahnten ohne politische Unterdruechung sagen, aber
an den holocaust darfst du nicht zweifeln. Warum? 



Ole Kreiberg

http://www.patriot.dk
http://www.faelleslisten.org



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