The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/k/kreiberg.ole/1995/kreiberg.1095


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct  2 16:21:27 PDT 1995
Article: 10232 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The reason I defend the nazis
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 1995 22:00:17 -0100
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In article , Staffan Friberg wrote:
>
>> >It's Dr. Keren, not Mr. Keren.
>
>> Why? Daniel Keren has ph.d. in computer science. Has this much relevance to
>> the discussion about burning pits.
>
>Why? Because he has a Ph.D. in computer science, of course. I wouldn't call
>him Dr. Keren if he didn't have a Ph.D. now would I?

Well if you title somebody a doctor in Denmark, and I think the same would be 
the case in the USA, you mean a medical doctor. But why is he the only one
who is entitled to a title in this newsgroup. Why not yourself or me? 

>I can't believe that Dr. Keren was "rude and insolent", not without cause,
>anyway. If you consider it rude to ask questions that you cannot answer then
>the situation becomes another, I imagine.

Actually I was the one who asked questions, and he was the one who was 
supposed to answer them. 

>
>> >Do you feel that the practice of funeral pyres in India and the mass
>> >extermination centres in Poland differ in any way, Mr. Kreiberg? If so, why
>> >are you bringing up this irrelevant piece of information?
>
>> They certainly differ. There have in India never been burnt corpses in open 
>> pits. Here the body is placed on top of the pyre which consists of firewood. 
>
>Then why bring it up in the first place? It has no relevance to the subject
>at hand, has it?

  It certainly has, because India is the only place to my knowledge, where
cremation is made in open air. Here it takes around two hours to cremate a 
body.
>
>However, I posted some comments from people who actually were there when it
>happened, comments that you so conveniently deleted. I assume you didn't even
>read them.
>
>I'll post them again:
>
>Here follows some remarks on the matter. This is taken from a post by Barry
>Shein on the 3rd of june 1995, the message-id is:
>.
>
>*Begin quote*
>
>Here are some comments by Rudolph Hoss who was actually there:
>
>       Layers of corpses were alternated with layers of wood,
>       and when a pyre containing about a hundred corpses had
>       been built up, the wood was set on fire with the help of
>       rags soaked in kerosene. Once the cremation was going well,
>       the other corpses were thrown into the fire.
>
>and
>
>       As late as the summer of 1942, the corpses were still carried
>       to mass graves. It was only toward the end of the summer
>       that cremation began to be used -- first by means of a wood
>       pyre with about two thousand corpses, and later in ditches,
>       by night as well as by day.
>
>Pery Broad, SS-Unterscharfuhrer at Auschwitz testifies that by 1942:
>
>       The methods of extermination at Auschwitz no longer
>       satisfied Himmler. First, they were too slow. Next,
>       the big pyres gave off such a stench that the air
>       reeked with it over a radius of several kilometers.
>       At night one could see the red hue of the sky above
>       Auschwitz from far away. But without these gigantic
>       pyres it would have been utterly impossible to get
>       rid of the infinite number of corpses of people who
>       had died in the camp or in the gas chambers. The
>       chimney  of the Auschwitz crematorium had developed
>       dangerous cracks through overheating...One of the
>       thatched-roofed houses was even put back into operation,
>       under the name of bunker no. 5...The last corpse had
>       hardly been removed from the chambers and dragged to
>       the incineration ditch, across the corpse-strewn yard
>       behind the crematorium, than the next gassing victims
>       were undressing in the big room.
>
>Dr Sigismund Paul Bendel, an inmate at Auschwitz, wrote in 1945:
>
>       When I entered the special work detail, the results
>       produced by the ovens in crematoria IV and V were
>       considered insufficient. They were replaced by three
>       big ditches, each twelve meters long, six meters wide
>       and one and a half meters deep. The number of bodies
>       that could be cremated in them was incredible: a
>       thousand persons per hour. It was further increased
>       when a tunnel was drilled beneath the ditches to
>       conduct the human fat into a salvage tank.
>
>And two prisoners who escaped from Auschwitz on 27 May 1944, Mordowicz
>and Rosin, add:
>
>       Three crematory ovens ran night and day. At that time
>       the fourth was being repaired, and, because the capacity
>       of the ovens was not sufficient, big ditches, thirty
>       meters by fifteen, were once again dug (as at the time
>       there were not yet any ovens) in the birch wood, where
>       bodies were burned night and day.

There were only three oven. I thought there were supposed to be 46 or even  
52.
>
>All from: "Nazi Mass Murder -- A documentary history of the use of
>poison gas", Kogon, Langbein, Ruckerl eds., Yale University Press,
>1993, [from 7 chapter, "Auschwitz".]
>
>*End quote*
>
>This time, will you please read this!
>
>Not the first and the second paragraph, please. They appearently did use
>pyres and started to burn people in ditches at a later stage.
>
>Since you appear to have no problems with the use of pyres I take this as you
>acknowledge that a lot of people were cremated in this fashion?
>
>If they had to be cremated like this even though the camp had 52 cremation
>ovens (I forget the correct word, it certainly isn't oven) people must have
>died at a terrible rate. Do we agree on that, Mr. Kreiberg?

Sure there were frequent typhus-epidemics which created an overload of bodies
which had to be burnt on pyres. Anyway the Germans used to burn the some of
the many victims from Allied air-raid this way.
>
>
>> What has this to do with the discussion. I was asked, if a modern oven is 
>> preheated, before the body is entered, and I answered that it was preheated 
>> to 650 degrees (centigrade), and while the coffin was burnt away the 
>> temperature was raised to 1000 degrees (centigrade). This means that the body
>> itself is burning at the maximum temperature all the 75 minutes. The coke-
>
>The people who were cremated at Auschwitz weren't put into coffins so I don't
>understand why you keep bringing it up. 

Because Mr. Keren asked me if a modern crematory-oven is preheated, before 
the body is entered. I answered, that while the coffin is burnt away it 
reachs it's maximum-temperature. It means that all the 75 minutes, it takes
to burn a body according to any encyclopedia, is done at maximum temperature.
Do you understand it now?
>> and coalfired ovens in use in the forties were only able to reach a maximum
>> temperature of 870 degrees (centigrade) and the flames from the coal or 
>> coke did not touch the body direct such as the gasflames in modern ovens. 
>> Coke and coal are short-flamed fuel. According to the some of the 
>> eyewitnesses flames many metres high were shooting out the chimneys. Please 
>> Mr. Friberg give me a technical explanation of this. I have only one time in 
>> my whole life seen flames shooting out of a chimney, and the fire-brigade was 
>> already there to put out the fire. If you see fire coming out of chimney, it 
>> is time to call the fire-brigade.
>
>I am not and have never claimed to be an expert on cremation issues so I can
>obviously not give a technical explanation. I would assume that it is because
>of the (documented) incredible strain on the ovens. If anyone reading this
>has any input I'd be interested.
>
>Could you tell me from where you got the figure 870 degrees? (It's celsius,
>by the way, centigrade isn't used anymore.) I don't doubt the figure, I'm
>just curious. You obviously do trust some documentation.

The figures for the modern oven I have taken from the Danish encyclopaedia,
Gyldendals Tibindsleksikon. You can find similiar figures in Encyklopaedia
Britannica. The figure 870 degrees (centigrade) I have taken from the 
Leuchter-report. (Yes I know that Leuchter is heavily slandered and smeared
in this newsgroup and I know that I will be blamed for quoting from his 
report). Centigrade is the same as celsius. I have stayed in USA and other   
English speaking countries for long periods, and I have only heard celsius
degrees being mentioned as centigrades. In the USA they still apply the
Fahrenheit-scale.
>
>As you have been told repeatedly there is a german patent (patent 24/d/1, no.
>861.731) that gives the time 30 minutes for one body. Why do you keep
>ignoring this?
>
>> >Don't you understand that you can't make a comparision between a modern
>> >crematorium and the crematoria at Auschwitz? It has been pointed out to you
>> >several times.
>> 
>> Yes, modern crematories are both quicker and more effective, than those in
>> Auschwitz were.
>
>Even though it is a documented fact that the people who built the crematoria
>at Auschwitz have submitted at patent claiming otherwise. Do you have a
>problem with reading english? I don't know enough danish but you usually have
>less problems with swedish than most swedish people have with danish.
>
>Therefore, here is the relevant paragraph in swedish:
>
>Man har upprepade gånger talat om för dig att det finns ett tyskt patent
>(patent 24/d/1 nr. 861.731) vilket ger tiden 30 minuter för en kropp. Varför
>ignorerar du hela tiden detta?
>
I have no problems with reading English. I have not studied this patent close
enough to form a opinion of it. I would also like to know the opinion of a 
recognized crematory-expert, before I would take this into consideration. 

>
>Dr. Keren has never claimed having cremated someone, that's true. However he
>(as well as I and a lot of other people) has read documents from people who
>have, can you give any reason at all why we should distrust them?

A lot of reasons. First of all the Nuremberg-court, where many of these 
documents come from, was nothing but a cangaroo-court. E.g. only crimes 
committed by one part, the Germans, were tried here. The Allied air-raids on 
civilians were not tried, although these acts were indeed a violations of the 
international convention of war. The Nuremberg-court had rather character of 
a political show-trial against the nazi-ideology and a promotion of the 
winners of the war. You don't want me to take any of the rubbish coming
>from  there seriously, do you?
>
>> >You keep repeating the phrase "so called "Holocaust"" and ignore questions of
>> >what exactly would convince you. I'll ask again, what would convince you that
>> >there really was a holocaust?
> 
>>   I think that an international body of impartial scientists investigating in 
>> an unprejudiced way all the allegations of the revisionists and the 
>> anti-revisionists, may convince me of what is the truth.
>
>An international body of impartial scientists, indeed. And you naturally have
>the same demands for any given historical event?
>
 Yes, If it is regarded of international significance and is disputed the 
same way as the so called holocaust.

>Do you claim that all historians who have done work on the holocaust come
>from the same country? If so which one?

No
>
>Do you claim that all historians who have done work on the holocaust are not
>impartial? If so, on what grounds?

They rely mostly on eyewitnesses. If I wanted get the truth about the Jews  
I would certainly not go the nazis, and if I wanted to get the truth about 
nazism I would certainly not go to the Jews. These two parties are mortal
enemies and are in my opinion not able to make a fair and objective 
judgement about each other. The Jewish eyewitnesses to the so-called 
holocaust I do not take seriously. 


Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct  3 02:04:10 PDT 1995
Article: 10260 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: MY PROBLEMS WITH THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 1995 23:46:51 -0100
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In article , Mike Hoffmann wrote:

>> 
>> 
>>                 GERMANY IS A SKID-ROW DEMOCRACY 
>
>A Nazi revisionist/appologist accusing the German government of Nazi methods
>when an American neo-nazi is extradited to Germany to stand trial for the
>spouting of Nazi hatred...
>
A democracy which holds political prisoners can never be regarded a true
democracy. THAT SIMPLE.

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct  3 08:57:41 PDT 1995
Article: 10275 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: MY PROBLEMS WITH THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 11:12:14 -0100
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In article , Fred Fullerton wrote:
>
>It is ironic that the politically correct should be so concerned about
>whether or not Lauck will get a fair trial in Germany. Imagine what would
>happen to human rights and freedom of speech if the likes of Lauck ever
>became the status quo!

The politically correct are the ones that want Gerry Lauck in jail. Communism
was tolerated in all true democracies in spite of the fact that more people
died in communist camp than in nazi-camps.


Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Oct  6 09:51:05 PDT 1995
Article: 10392 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: MY PROBLEMS WITH THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 1995 10:50:58 -0100
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In article , Fred Fullerton wrote:
>> 
>> The politically correct are the ones that want Gerry Lauck in jail. Communism
>> was tolerated in all true democracies in spite of the fact that more people
>> died in communist camp than in nazi-camps.
>> 
>Ole, Lauck isn't a "political" prisoner; he violated German law, therefore
>he's accountable for his actions before a criminal court. You might want
>to take a look at a German law book. Yes, I'd like to see Gary Lauck in
>jail, [sigh] so now I'm politcally correct. That's a hoot, Ole, a real
>hoot. And I suppose you're a true blue democrat.
>
  You can never make something a crime which in it's nature is not a crime. 
Everybody knows what a crime is, even if it is not written down in a law-book. 
To make it "a crime" to have a dissident political view, no matter how wild 
this view may be, is political repression, persecution and nothing else. 
No matter how much you may hate nazism, it is still a political idea and 
nothing else. 
  I must however strongly emphasize that I felt the same contempt for Germany 
when the legal communist leaders from the former DDR (East-Germany) were put 
on trial. These communist leaders had not violated any laws in their own 
country (DDR) - a country which was recognized by the Federal Republic of
Germany (West-Germany). Still this arrogant Federal Republic of Germany tried 
them with their own law. The Germans have not changed during the last 50 
years and never will. That it was what I have learned from these political 
show-trials. I am not old enough to have experienced  the second world war
and have therefore no hard feelings toward Germany because of that. However
the political show-trials and the arrogant treatment of Denmark in the  
Gary Lauck case has changed my view toward Germany. That the Danish govern-
ment did yield to German political pressure, really scared me, and I have now 
decided to become more active in the struggle against the European union. 
Fortunately Denmark is that country in the EC, where the population is most 
sceptic toward the so-called European "Union", and I think that the German 
government is making things more easy for us opponents. 

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Oct  7 08:22:30 PDT 1995
Article: 10497 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.nordic,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The reason I defend the nazis
Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 12:43:21 -0100
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In article <1995Oct3.040556@miavx1>, Raskolnikov wrote:
>
>Earlier you claimed that it would have been impossible for 
>the Nazis to have disposed of large numbers of corpses by 
>burning them in ditches.
>
>Now you're saying that, oh yes of course they _did_ dispose of 
>corpses in this manner, but only to deal with victims of
>Typhus epidemics and allied bombing.
>
Yes because this way is a credible way to do it, while the allegation of 
burning pits is absurd and utterly doubtful.

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sat Oct  7 08:22:31 PDT 1995
Article: 10498 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Why is revisionism less popular in Europe?
Date: Sat, 07 Oct 1995 12:54:04 -0100
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 I think that holocaust revisionism will spread more and more in the 
European countries in the future. Four European countries have even been so 
desperate as to make it heresy to question the holocaust. This proves what a 
strong and feared message holocaust revisionism is carrying.
  However the animosity toward German attempts to dominate it's neighbouring 
countries today as well as at other points of history does inhibit the
willingness to judge history in a way favourable to the Germans.


Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct  9 06:22:17 PDT 1995
Article: 10634 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: MY PROBLEMS WITH THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 10:38:00 -0100
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In article , Hal Beumer wrote:
>In article  olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>>  I must however strongly emphasize that I felt the same contempt for Germany 
>>when the legal communist leaders from the former DDR (East-Germany) were put 
>>on trial. These communist leaders had not violated any laws in their own 
>>country (DDR) - a country which was recognized by the Federal Republic of
>>Germany (West-Germany). Still this arrogant Federal Republic of Germany tried 
>>them with their own law.
>Murder and Manslaughter were crimes in the DDR. Hoenecker, Mielke, et al. 
>issued the "shoot to kill" orders for DDR citizens fleeing over the wall 
>although they never pulled the trigger themselves. Hitler ordered millions of 
>Jews to be killed but never shot one himself. If we follow your logic, neither 
>the Nazi nor the DDR leadership would ever have come to trial. Think about it.
>
>Remember also, the concept of "crimes against humanity". Not violating laws of 
>your own state is not a valid defense if it can be shown that these laws 
>violate international norms. For example, consider the recent accusation of 
>war crimes against Mladic and Karadzic. 

  Everyone in the former DDR was aware of the fact that it was a violation  
of the law for DDR-citizens to cross the border between the former DDR and 
the BDR without a permission, and they also knew that the borderguards had 
the legal rigths to shoot at the offenders in order to make them stop their 
illegal activities. Of course the BDR itself would never act so drastic in a 
similiar situation. BDR has no death-penalty in it's penalcode.   
However the USA has capital punishment and in this case a foreign power in
the same way could try the American government for murder, but as I have said
before, the USA is too big for the arrogant German government to bully. 
  In stead it is bullying it's small neighbouring countries such as 
Denmark in the Gerhard Lauck case. Gerhard Lauck had in several years been
printing his thoughts in the USA and sent them from there to Germany, where
such thoughts are banned. While he is in Denmark as a visitor the arrogant 
and obnoxiuos German goverment bullies the Danish authorities to apprehend 
him, although he has not really violated Danish law. This affair is solely
an affair between Germany and the USA, and Denmark should certainly not have
been involved.
  This is not the only case of German arrogance toward Denmark. Half a year
ago I read about a German politician by the name Klaus Haensch who wanted to
make pressure on all the German neighbouring countries in order to make them
copy the German laws concerning the political correct attitude toward the so 
called holocaust and ethnic minorities. I wrote two letters of protest to
the German Embassy in Denmark, but as expected these arrogant "prussians" did
not even bother to answer. Therefore I am now posting these and other
articles to soc.culture.german. I am not finished with the German Government.
It wants to infringe in Danish internal affairs, and I am in return denying
the holocaust in this newsgroup. Although I am actually only questioning
and doubting the holocaust I do in soc.culture.german and only in this 
newsgroup also deny the holocaust.
  I will soon be visiting Luebeck in Germany. Now if the German authorities 
want apprehend me this will be their chance. I will however also deny that 
Denmark ever burned Luebeck down 5 times in the Middle Ages. I will then
ask the Judge, why I can deny these incidents which are of relevance
between Denmark and Germany but not deny the alleged holocaust, in which
no Danish citizens participated either as "victims" or as "executioners".
Why do want to bother us Danes with your holocaust story? Do you really think 
that people in Denmark ever will be willing to share your ever-lasting guilt? 


Ole Kreiberg 



From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct  9 10:02:08 PDT 1995
Article: 10646 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: The Most Guilty People on Earth
Date: Mon, 09 Oct 1995 15:45:34 -0100
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In article , Hal Beumer wrote:
>
>Remember also, the concept of "crimes against humanity". Not violating laws of 
>your own state is not a valid defense if it can be shown that these laws 
>violate international norms. For example, consider the recent accusation of 
>war crimes against Mladic and Karadzic. 

First of all I find the expression "crimes against humanity" both ridiculous 
and meaningless. As far as I can understand, it is only infringements which
have something to do with ethnic matters that are considered "crimes against
humanity". As far as I know, none of the former DDR leaders have ever been 
charged with "crimes against humanity". 

  Although much more people died in communist-camps than in nazi-camps, it
is not forbidden in Germany to say, that it is bourgois proganda and lies
to claim that millions of people died in Stalin's camps. Pol Pot who was
the leader of one of the most blood-stained regimes in the history of 
mankind, namely the former Khmer-rouge regime in Cambodja, is still a free 
man and is not wanted by international tribunal of the UN. Pol Pot had more 
than a million of his countrymen killed in a few years. Idi Amin from Uganda 
is also a free man. He is supposed to had 200000 of his countrymen killed.
Because the motives do not seem to be ethnic, the world community does not
bother. Stalin let a class of people exterminate, namely the kulaks (small
farmers). Millions of these hapless people were killed in artificial
created famines or they were taken to camps and worked to death. Still
representatives of Stalin's government were represented as judges at the 
Nuremberg courts. 

What you can learn from the Nuremberg trial is that it is only immoral to 
murder somebody because of his race. Political minorities you are free to 
butcher. 

  Concerning ethnic cleansing Stalin was not reticent either. What happened
to all the Poles, who lived in that part of Poland, that Stalin occupied 
after an agreement with Hitler in 1939? They were all chasen out toward the 
end of the war. And what about the Crimean Tatars? Because a few of them had    
cooperated with the Germans, they were collectively deported to Central-Asia.
Stalin and Hitler divided Poland between them in 1939. Hitler was considered a 
big war-criminal because of that. Stalin which did exactly the same, was 
permitted by the international community to keep "his" part of Poland after 
the war. Hypocracy and double standard do you not agree? Stalin also took a 
part of Finland, Slovakia and Romania. The three Baltic republics Estonia, 
Latvia and Lithuania were incoperated in the Sovjet-Union and colonized by  
hundred-thousands of Russians. Hitler wanted to create Lebensraum in the east
and failed, while Stalin suceeded in doing so to the West. What you can learn
>from  this, is that, if you are a good communist, you can do what ever you 
want, but if you are a nazi or a racist, you will soon be brought before an
internatioanal court. Oh, I forgot one exception, if you are a German 
communist leader from the former DDR, you will be brought before a court too, 
because if you are a German, you are of course always guilty - even if you 
are a communist

 
 Karadzic and Mladic are also to be brought before an international court.
Unfortunately for them, they are neither communists nor do they have a dark 
skincolour such as Idi Amin and O.J Simpson, so they are held responible for 
the death of 10000 people. Where the Germans are the most guilty people on 
this Earth, other people with white skin are the second most guilty. So I am 
pretty much sure that the international community will succeed in bringing 
these two "honks" before a trial.


Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 15 17:45:38 PDT 1995
Article: 10810 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The Most Guilty People on Earth
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:32:32 -0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:10810 soc.culture.german:60621

In article <45c88h$1jo@xretle.intersource.com>, Joe Weber wrote:
> You forget to ention the 30 million kulaks Stalin starved to eath in the 
>thirty's by throwing them off their land in order to form the 
>collectives.

In fact I did mentioned the Kulaks in my article. Try to read it again. Apart
>from  that I can fully agree with rest of your article.
>
>
>The U.S. prigs who tallk about 'crimes against humanity ' and war crimes 
>forget that  the U.S. forbids the enforcing of an 'ex post facto' law, 
>i.e. one past after the fact.  The Nuremburg kangaroo court tried people 
>for 'crimes'defined after they had occured (ergo ex post facto).  It also 
>guranteed that the leaders, military and civilian, of the loser in all 
>future wars will be tired for these same 'crimes' by the winner.
>
>  This is in the sae catagory as 'human rights' whatever they are, and 
>whoever defined them.  There are, of course, NO NATURAL RIGHTS OF ANY 
>KIND.  Rights are what society will allow its citizens.
> 
>

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 15 17:45:39 PDT 1995
Article: 10811 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The Most Guilty People on Earth
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:57:05 -0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:10811 soc.culture.german:60622

n article <45fmrq$fhq@calvino.alaska.net>, Henry Ayre  wrote:
>
>You've stated the case well, Mr. Kreiberg. You have left for me to state 
>that the heinous crimes enumerated above were real, whereas the 
>"holocaust" is a celluloid masterpiece out of Hollywood. H. Ayre.

Thank you, and let me please add the following:

In my opinion the Nuremberg-trial was nothing but a political show-trial. The
so-called International Tribunal of the UN is a political court too. If you
want everyone to respect the authority of certain court, it must necessarily  
treat everyone with the same standard. The real "crime" of the Bosnian 
serbian leaders is their nationalistic policy. Had the civil-war in Bosnia
had something to do with "just" various political fractions or parties 
fighting each other, the so-called world community would not have bothered
much about the alleged acts of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mladic.

  Therefore I am not able to feel any respect for the International Tribunal  
of the UN.

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 15 17:45:40 PDT 1995
Article: 10951 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Most Guilty People on Earth
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:31:17 -0100
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NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <45j3mt$oe2@dns.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>>The real "crime" of the Bosnian serbian leaders is their nationalistic policy.
>>>>>
>  No.  Emphatically not.  The real crime of the Serbs is that they chose to 
>implement what are more or less legitimate political objectives by a system of 
>"ethnic cleansing" so disgusting that it represents genocide.
>
>   --YFE 

In Rwanda in Africa more than one million people were killed in ethnic 
strife. Why are not some the perpetrators wanted by the International 
Tribunal of the UN. Is it, because the same degree of civilized behaviour, 
is not expected of Black people as of White people. Why do we all the time 
have to hear, how particular terrible it is that there is civil war in a 
European country, while there are several civil wars in Africa which the 
so-called world community does not seem to worry much about. Why is there
one standard for Europe and another for Africa. Is there racial undertones 
here? Why is not the USA as keen to try to stop all the wars in Africa as it
is to stop that single war in Europe?  Most of the wars in Africa seem to  
have something to do with ethnic, national or cultural diffences. 

Ole Kreiberg.

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 15 17:45:41 PDT 1995
Article: 10998 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Burning Pits
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 15:20:14 -0100
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This is an article, I have received by e-mail. I know who sent it, but  
unfortunately not who wrote it:

>This is very interesting. At the moment, I am having a "debate" with Jamie
>Mcnutty about "burning pits" at Birkenau.
 
>Has any of these pits be opened, and were skeletons/bones or anything found?
 
    Apparently not.  Arno Mayer writes on page 363 of his book WHY DID
THE HEAVENS NOT DARKEN? "Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the
four out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the Soviet 
archives may yield significant clues and evidence when they are opened. In 
addition, excavations at the killing sites and their immediate environs may 
also bring forth new information."
 
>Does anybody know anything about the pit near Krema II as seen in the air
>photos?
   
  Though John Ball does not specifically designate the "pit" behind KII as
a "mark"  drawn of aerial photos, he does believe the "pits" near KIII are
drawn there.  Since the pits in both locations look alike, I would hazard a
guess that the pit near KII is also a CIA enhancement of the original 
imagery.  In any case, there is no smoke eminating from these locations in
any of the air photographs.
  
>I am reminded of Blobels [einsatzgruppen B?] "testimony", which asserts that
>many pits full of dead jews were re-opened and the "evidence" destroyed.
 
>Of course, killing thousands of jews, exhuming them and destroying all evidence
>would take a lot of time. One would have thought that the Red Army with some of
>their attacks which overran hundreds of square miles at a time, would have
>prevented this process, and the pits would have been discovered.
 
>--
 

 
I posted the following to alt.revisionism early this year. I am planning to 
expand and repost it as soon as I can make some time for that.

                      *******************************
                      The Birkenau Pits
Holoscribe Martin Gilbert describes the founding of the Birkenau 
satellite camp of Auschwitz by in this way.  "There, new barracks were 
built, a women's camp was opened on 16 August 1942, electric fences 
erected, and a deep ditch dug around the whole site."  So a few weeks 
before SS-Dr. Kremer arrived for duty at the Auschwitz camp, the 
Birkenau women's camp, which he mentions several times in his diary, 
was opened.  One of the first things done in setting up this camp was to 
dig a ditch around it. The reason for this ditch was not primarily for 
escape prevention, but for drainage.  The Birkenau camp was built in a 
marsh and many former prisoners of the camp remember standing, and 
walking in the mud there.
 
As the plans for the two largest Birkenau crematories were finalized, 
they were changed to make the morgue facilities semi-basements 
surrounded by berms rather than the fully sub-surface structures 
originally planned.  The reason for this change was Birkenau's high 
water table.  Any excavation of any depth in the area is soon  inundated 
with water.  Birkenau was a swamp -- a wallow. It still is today.
 
Evidently, the character of this piece of real estate was not a problem for 
the SS.  Perhaps taking a tip from Moses at the Red Sea,  the Nazis 
found some way to keep the water out of  pits dug to cremate gas 
chamber victims.
 
Hoess,  the SS commander of  Auschwitz referred to these ditches in his  
March 1946 statement.
     "As the new crematorium installations were not ready until 1942 
[sic], the prisoners had to be gassed in temporary gas-chambers and then 
incinerated in graves dug in the ground. [...] They were then burned in 
trenches.  Before incineration gold teeth and rings were removed.  
Firewood was piled up among the bodies and when there was a pile of 
about one hundred bodies in the grave, the wood was lit with rags 
drenched in paraffin.  When the fire had caught, the rest of the bodies 
were thrown on.  The fat which was collecting on the bottom of the 
trenches was poured back on to the fire with buckets[!].  This helped to 
accelerate the burning process, in wet weather particularly[!].   The 
incineration took six to seven hours.  The stench of the burnt bodies 
reached the camp itself when the wind was blowing from the west.  After 
the trenches had been cleared the charred remains were crushed.  This 
was done on a cement slab with wooden pounders.  These remains were 
then taken to a remote part of the Vistula by lorry and poured[?] into the 
river."
 
Similar, and much funnier, recollections come from Filip Mueller, a 
Czech Jew.  The following is supposed to have happened in May, 1942--
a few months before the Birkenau camp was built.
 
 
     "That evening some trucks came, and we had to load the rest, some 
300 bodies, into the trucks.  Then we were taken ... I don't know where, 
but probably to a field at Birkenau.  We were ordered to unload the 
bodies and put them in a pit.  There was a ditch, an artificial pit.  
Suddenly, [Who pulled the handle?] water gushed up from underground 
and swept the bodies down.  When night came, we had to stop that 
horrible work.  We were loaded into the trucks and returned to 
Auschwitz.
     "The next day we were taken to the same place, but the water had 
risen.  Some SS men came with a fire truck and pumped out the water.  
We had to go down into the muddy pit to stack up the bodies.  Bud they 
were slimy.  For example, I grasped a woman, but her hands ... her hand 
was slippery, slimy.  I tried to pull her, but I fell over backward, into the 
water, the mud.  It was the same for all of us.  Up top,  at the edge of the 
pit, Aumeyer and Grabner yelled: 'Get cracking, you filth, you bastards! 
We'll show you, you bunch of shits!'" [No! Don't pull the handle again!] 
[From Lanzmann's SHOAH] 
 
 
In his book EYEWITNESS AUSCHWITZ [pages 130-139], Mueller 
describes these pits as being about 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters by 2 
meters deep and provides a fanciful description on how such a cremation 
was prepared. He agrees with Hoess that these pits were emptied 
afterward and reused.
 
There is something very wrong with this picture.  The Nazis dug pits in 
a marsh to  repeatedly burn bodies in.  The fact that a hole in the ground 
is not necessary, unless the remains are to be buried there afterward, 
doesn't seem to occur to anyone.  In fact, the SS was so set on having a 
pit they supposedly drove a pumper truck in to drain the water.  This is 
simply incredible and very stupid.
 
This moronic behavior is supposed to have continued until the Birkenau 
crematories were completed in the first half of 1943.  Then  the Topf 
ovens were used to cremate the dead. That is until Auschwitz went into 
overdrive.
 
Hoess, Reitlinger,  Filip Mueller, and others state these pits were 
reactivated in 1944 to keep up with the hectic days of the extermination 
of  the Hungarian Jews.  Former inmates remember how the burning in 
these pits lit the skies at night. Hoess, however, contradicts this by 
stating in his memoir  that the burning only took place during the day in 
1944 for fear of creating a beacon that might guide Allied bomber 
planes.  
 
During 54 days of 1944,  approximately 200,000, or  292,000, or  
438,000 Hungarian Jews  were murdered in the equally moronic gas 
chambers of Birkenau.  This is an average of 3704, or 5407, or 8111 
bodies per day.  Since the crematories were supposed to have been 
designed to dispose of 10,000 or 12,000 bodies per day,  the reason this 
influx exceeded resident capacity is unclear.
 
Assuming none of these people lie, but merely exist in their own 
Carrollian parallel universes,  the pit burning started again in May 1944 
and continued through August or later of that year.  This was a period of 
time in which the nearby Buna / petrol plant at Monowitz (a.k.a. 
Auschwitz III) became a target of Allied strategic bombing.
 
Called "Operation Frantic," the Allied air forces implemented a program 
that targeted German fuel producing facilities.  The industrial 
installations at Monowitz were built to convert coal to artificial rubber 
and gasoline.  The Italian chemist, Primo Levi,  has written a memoir of 
his experiences while employed in construction and later as a chemist at 
Monowitz after he was deported there for participating in anti-Nazi 
activities in Italy. 
 
Butz wrote in his 1976 book the following with regard to Operation 
Frantic and the extermination of the Hungarian Jews.
 
     "Now in the Allied bombing operations in World War II it was 
customary to make extensive use of photographic intelligence.  One 
objective was the assessment of damage done by attacks and another was 
the planning of attacks: determining whether or not the target was worth 
attacking and also determining the extent and nature of  the defenses in 
the area of the target.  It is a certainty that intelligence had photographed 
Auschwitz and the surrounding area, rather thoroughly, soon after the 8 
June [1944] order.  In this case the Americans should have been able to 
provide actual photographs of all these Hungarian Jews being moved 
into Auschwitz and shot and burned out in the open.  They should not 
even have been obliged to take any special measures [Sonderbehandlung] 
to provide for us, either at the time of the alleged killings, or at the later 
trial, photographic evidence of their claims. [ ...]
     "Despite all the attention the Hungarian Jews and Auschwitz were 
receiving at the time and despite the Roosevelt promise publicized on 25 
March, the Americans did not lift a finger to either interfere with the 
alleged deportations, by bombing the specific rail lines involved, or with 
the alleged killings by bombing the 'gas chambers'.  They not only failed 
to take the opportunity to provide us with photographic evidence for their 
claims, they also do not seem to have the evidence despite having taken 
the photographs."
 
In 1979 the CIA confirmed what Butz had written in 1976 by releasing a 
copy of the air photographic films taken of Auschwitz during 1944, with 
great fanfare, to the National Archives.  In conjunction with this event, 
the CIA also published an analysis report to go with the photos.  The 
report identifies some burning activity on a 26 June 1944 photo of 
Birkenau, but it is located in the wrong spot.  The other "evidence" of 
the exterminations the CIA analysts identified were dark spots on the 
roofs of the morgues attached to crematories II & III, an open single gate 
to the area surrounding crematory II, and a dark blur which they 
conclude is a group of new arrivals on its "way to gas chambers" on a 25 
August 1944 photo.   
 
John C. Ball, a Canadian geologist, published another analysis of the 
American air photos in 1992. He concluded "every mark which the 
authors of the C.I.A. report used to conclude that homicidal gas 
chambers were in operation on the August 25th photos had been added 
to the photos after they were exposed in 1944."  He further states in no 
case can smoke from the areas of alleged outdoor cremation be 
identified.  The images of the air photos in question cover days in 
December 1943;  April, May, June, August,  September,  November,  
December 1944; and January 1945.
 
Holoscribes excuse this lack of evidence by stating the photos were taken 
on the wrong days, or of the wrong areas.  If the images just covered 
areas a few meters away, or the day before, or the day after, the evidence 
would be there.  This proves nothing.  It simply provides an excuse for 
having no evidence. 
 
The Allies were very interested in what was happening at Monowitz.  
They overflew Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Monowitz on a regular basis 
for over a year.  The Polish resistance and other avenues of intelligence 
were providing them with detailed data on the area.  Zionist leaders were 
also claiming the Hungarian Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz 
while it was allegedly happening.  One would think the Allied 
governments would make an effort, or since they were over-flying the 
camp anyway, the pilots and crew would have reported something out of 
the ordinary. Yet the air photos show nothing to support the pit burning 
claim.  Since imagined events would not appear on a photo, perhaps that 
is why the evidence is not there.  Maybe the cremation pits at Birkenau 
are a product of a sick imagination and never existed in reality.
 
SOURCES:
 
Ball, AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE (1992)
 
Brugioni and Poirier,  THE HOLOCAUST REVISITED: A 
RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU
EXTERMINATION COMPLEX (1979)
 
Buchner, "The Problem of Cremator Hours and Incineration Time" 
                 Journal of Historical Review  Vol II No. 3 (1981)
 
Butz, THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY (1976)
 
Gilbert, AUSCHWITZ AND THE ALLIES(1981)
  
Klee, Dressen, and Riess, "THE GOOD OLD DAYS"(1991)
 
Lanzmann, SHOAH: AN ORAL HISTORY OF THE 
HOLOCAUST(1985)
 
Mattogno, AUSCHWITZ: THE END OF A LEGEND(1994)

This is an article somebody sent me by e-mail. 

>This is very interesting. At the moment, I am having a "debate" with Jamie
>Mcnutty about "burning pits" at Birkenau.
 
>Has any of these pits be opened, and were skeletons/bones or anything found?
 
    Apparently not.  Arno Mayer writes on page 363 of his book WHY DID
THE HEAVENS NOT DARKEN? "Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the
four out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the Soviet 
archives may yield significant clues and evidence when they are opened. In 
addition, excavations at the killing sites and their immediate environs may 
also bring forth new information."
 
>Does anybody know anything about the pit near Krema II as seen in the air
>photos?
   
  Though John Ball does not specifically designate the "pit" behind KII as
a "mark"  drawn of aerial photos, he does believe the "pits" near KIII are
drawn there.  Since the pits in both locations look alike, I would hazard a
guess that the pit near KII is also a CIA enhancement of the original 
imagery.  In any case, there is no smoke eminating from these locations in
any of the air photographs.
  
>I am reminded of Blobels [einsatzgruppen B?] "testimony", which asserts that
>many pits full of dead jews were re-opened and the "evidence" destroyed.
 
>Of course, killing thousands of jews, exhuming them and destroying all evidence
>would take a lot of time. One would have thought that the Red Army with some of
>their attacks which overran hundreds of square miles at a time, would have
>prevented this process, and the pits would have been discovered.
 
>--
 

 
I posted the following to alt.revisionism early this year. I am planning to 
expand and repost it as soon as I can make some time for that.

                      *******************************
                      The Birkenau Pits
Holoscribe Martin Gilbert describes the founding of the Birkenau 
satellite camp of Auschwitz by in this way.  "There, new barracks were 
built, a women's camp was opened on 16 August 1942, electric fences 
erected, and a deep ditch dug around the whole site."  So a few weeks 
before SS-Dr. Kremer arrived for duty at the Auschwitz camp, the 
Birkenau women's camp, which he mentions several times in his diary, 
was opened.  One of the first things done in setting up this camp was to 
dig a ditch around it. The reason for this ditch was not primarily for 
escape prevention, but for drainage.  The Birkenau camp was built in a 
marsh and many former prisoners of the camp remember standing, and 
walking in the mud there.
 
As the plans for the two largest Birkenau crematories were finalized, 
they were changed to make the morgue facilities semi-basements 
surrounded by berms rather than the fully sub-surface structures 
originally planned.  The reason for this change was Birkenau's high 
water table.  Any excavation of any depth in the area is soon  inundated 
with water.  Birkenau was a swamp -- a wallow. It still is today.
 
Evidently, the character of this piece of real estate was not a problem for 
the SS.  Perhaps taking a tip from Moses at the Red Sea,  the Nazis 
found some way to keep the water out of  pits dug to cremate gas 
chamber victims.
 
Hoess,  the SS commander of  Auschwitz referred to these ditches in his  
March 1946 statement.
     "As the new crematorium installations were not ready until 1942 
[sic], the prisoners had to be gassed in temporary gas-chambers and then 
incinerated in graves dug in the ground. [...] They were then burned in 
trenches.  Before incineration gold teeth and rings were removed.  
Firewood was piled up among the bodies and when there was a pile of 
about one hundred bodies in the grave, the wood was lit with rags 
drenched in paraffin.  When the fire had caught, the rest of the bodies 
were thrown on.  The fat which was collecting on the bottom of the 
trenches was poured back on to the fire with buckets[!].  This helped to 
accelerate the burning process, in wet weather particularly[!].   The 
incineration took six to seven hours.  The stench of the burnt bodies 
reached the camp itself when the wind was blowing from the west.  After 
the trenches had been cleared the charred remains were crushed.  This 
was done on a cement slab with wooden pounders.  These remains were 
then taken to a remote part of the Vistula by lorry and poured[?] into the 
river."
 
Similar, and much funnier, recollections come from Filip Mueller, a 
Czech Jew.  The following is supposed to have happened in May, 1942--
a few months before the Birkenau camp was built.
 
 
     "That evening some trucks came, and we had to load the rest, some 
300 bodies, into the trucks.  Then we were taken ... I don't know where, 
but probably to a field at Birkenau.  We were ordered to unload the 
bodies and put them in a pit.  There was a ditch, an artificial pit.  
Suddenly, [Who pulled the handle?] water gushed up from underground 
and swept the bodies down.  When night came, we had to stop that 
horrible work.  We were loaded into the trucks and returned to 
Auschwitz.
     "The next day we were taken to the same place, but the water had 
risen.  Some SS men came with a fire truck and pumped out the water.  
We had to go down into the muddy pit to stack up the bodies.  Bud they 
were slimy.  For example, I grasped a woman, but her hands ... her hand 
was slippery, slimy.  I tried to pull her, but I fell over backward, into the 
water, the mud.  It was the same for all of us.  Up top,  at the edge of the 
pit, Aumeyer and Grabner yelled: 'Get cracking, you filth, you bastards! 
We'll show you, you bunch of shits!'" [No! Don't pull the handle again!] 
[From Lanzmann's SHOAH] 
 
 
In his book EYEWITNESS AUSCHWITZ [pages 130-139], Mueller 
describes these pits as being about 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters by 2 
meters deep and provides a fanciful description on how such a cremation 
was prepared. He agrees with Hoess that these pits were emptied 
afterward and reused.
 
There is something very wrong with this picture.  The Nazis dug pits in 
a marsh to  repeatedly burn bodies in.  The fact that a hole in the ground 
is not necessary, unless the remains are to be buried there afterward, 
doesn't seem to occur to anyone.  In fact, the SS was so set on having a 
pit they supposedly drove a pumper truck in to drain the water.  This is 
simply incredible and very stupid.
 
This moronic behavior is supposed to have continued until the Birkenau 
crematories were completed in the first half of 1943.  Then  the Topf 
ovens were used to cremate the dead. That is until Auschwitz went into 
overdrive.
 
Hoess, Reitlinger,  Filip Mueller, and others state these pits were 
reactivated in 1944 to keep up with the hectic days of the extermination 
of  the Hungarian Jews.  Former inmates remember how the burning in 
these pits lit the skies at night. Hoess, however, contradicts this by 
stating in his memoir  that the burning only took place during the day in 
1944 for fear of creating a beacon that might guide Allied bomber 
planes.  
 
During 54 days of 1944,  approximately 200,000, or  292,000, or  
438,000 Hungarian Jews  were murdered in the equally moronic gas 
chambers of Birkenau.  This is an average of 3704, or 5407, or 8111 
bodies per day.  Since the crematories were supposed to have been 
designed to dispose of 10,000 or 12,000 bodies per day,  the reason this 
influx exceeded resident capacity is unclear.
 
Assuming none of these people lie, but merely exist in their own 
Carrollian parallel universes,  the pit burning started again in May 1944 
and continued through August or later of that year.  This was a period of 
time in which the nearby Buna / petrol plant at Monowitz (a.k.a. 
Auschwitz III) became a target of Allied strategic bombing.
 
Called "Operation Frantic," the Allied air forces implemented a program 
that targeted German fuel producing facilities.  The industrial 
installations at Monowitz were built to convert coal to artificial rubber 
and gasoline.  The Italian chemist, Primo Levi,  has written a memoir of 
his experiences while employed in construction and later as a chemist at 
Monowitz after he was deported there for participating in anti-Nazi 
activities in Italy. 
 
Butz wrote in his 1976 book the following with regard to Operation 
Frantic and the extermination of the Hungarian Jews.
 
     "Now in the Allied bombing operations in World War II it was 
customary to make extensive use of photographic intelligence.  One 
objective was the assessment of damage done by attacks and another was 
the planning of attacks: determining whether or not the target was worth 
attacking and also determining the extent and nature of  the defenses in 
the area of the target.  It is a certainty that intelligence had photographed 
Auschwitz and the surrounding area, rather thoroughly, soon after the 8 
June [1944] order.  In this case the Americans should have been able to 
provide actual photographs of all these Hungarian Jews being moved 
into Auschwitz and shot and burned out in the open.  They should not 
even have been obliged to take any special measures [Sonderbehandlung] 
to provide for us, either at the time of the alleged killings, or at the later 
trial, photographic evidence of their claims. [ ...]
     "Despite all the attention the Hungarian Jews and Auschwitz were 
receiving at the time and despite the Roosevelt promise publicized on 25 
March, the Americans did not lift a finger to either interfere with the 
alleged deportations, by bombing the specific rail lines involved, or with 
the alleged killings by bombing the 'gas chambers'.  They not only failed 
to take the opportunity to provide us with photographic evidence for their 
claims, they also do not seem to have the evidence despite having taken 
the photographs."
 
In 1979 the CIA confirmed what Butz had written in 1976 by releasing a 
copy of the air photographic films taken of Auschwitz during 1944, with 
great fanfare, to the National Archives.  In conjunction with this event, 
the CIA also published an analysis report to go with the photos.  The 
report identifies some burning activity on a 26 June 1944 photo of 
Birkenau, but it is located in the wrong spot.  The other "evidence" of 
the exterminations the CIA analysts identified were dark spots on the 
roofs of the morgues attached to crematories II & III, an open single gate 
to the area surrounding crematory II, and a dark blur which they 
conclude is a group of new arrivals on its "way to gas chambers" on a 25 
August 1944 photo.   
 
John C. Ball, a Canadian geologist, published another analysis of the 
American air photos in 1992. He concluded "every mark which the 
authors of the C.I.A. report used to conclude that homicidal gas 
chambers were in operation on the August 25th photos had been added 
to the photos after they were exposed in 1944."  He further states in no 
case can smoke from the areas of alleged outdoor cremation be 
identified.  The images of the air photos in question cover days in 
December 1943;  April, May, June, August,  September,  November,  
December 1944; and January 1945.
 
Holoscribes excuse this lack of evidence by stating the photos were taken 
on the wrong days, or of the wrong areas.  If the images just covered 
areas a few meters away, or the day before, or the day after, the evidence 
would be there.  This proves nothing.  It simply provides an excuse for 
having no evidence. 
 
The Allies were very interested in what was happening at Monowitz.  
They overflew Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Monowitz on a regular basis 
for over a year.  The Polish resistance and other avenues of intelligence 
were providing them with detailed data on the area.  Zionist leaders were 
also claiming the Hungarian Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz 
while it was allegedly happening.  One would think the Allied 
governments would make an effort, or since they were over-flying the 
camp anyway, the pilots and crew would have reported something out of 
the ordinary. Yet the air photos show nothing to support the pit burning 
claim.  Since imagined events would not appear on a photo, perhaps that 
is why the evidence is not there.  Maybe the cremation pits at Birkenau 
are a product of a sick imagination and never existed in reality.
 
SOURCES:
 
Ball, AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE (1992)
 
Brugioni and Poirier,  THE HOLOCAUST REVISITED: A 
RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU
EXTERMINATION COMPLEX (1979)
 
Buchner, "The Problem of Cremator Hours and Incineration Time" 
                 Journal of Historical Review  Vol II No. 3 (1981)
 
Butz, THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY (1976)
 
Gilbert, AUSCHWITZ AND THE ALLIES(1981)
  
Klee, Dressen, and Riess, "THE GOOD OLD DAYS"(1991)
 
Lanzmann, SHOAH: AN ORAL HISTORY OF THE 
HOLOCAUST(1985)
 
Mattogno, AUSCHWITZ: THE END OF A LEGEND(1994)

This is an article somebody sent me by e-mail. 

>This is very interesting. At the moment, I am having a "debate" with Jamie
>Mcnutty about "burning pits" at Birkenau.
 
>Has any of these pits be opened, and were skeletons/bones or anything found?
 
    Apparently not.  Arno Mayer writes on page 363 of his book WHY DID
THE HEAVENS NOT DARKEN? "Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the
four out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the Soviet 
archives may yield significant clues and evidence when they are opened. In 
addition, excavations at the killing sites and their immediate environs may 
also bring forth new information."
 
>Does anybody know anything about the pit near Krema II as seen in the air
>photos?
   
  Though John Ball does not specifically designate the "pit" behind KII as
a "mark"  drawn of aerial photos, he does believe the "pits" near KIII are
drawn there.  Since the pits in both locations look alike, I would hazard a
guess that the pit near KII is also a CIA enhancement of the original 
imagery.  In any case, there is no smoke eminating from these locations in
any of the air photographs.
  
>I am reminded of Blobels [einsatzgruppen B?] "testimony", which asserts that
>many pits full of dead jews were re-opened and the "evidence" destroyed.
 
>Of course, killing thousands of jews, exhuming them and destroying all evidence
>would take a lot of time. One would have thought that the Red Army with some of
>their attacks which overran hundreds of square miles at a time, would have
>prevented this process, and the pits would have been discovered.
 
>--
 

 
I posted the following to alt.revisionism early this year. I am planning to 
expand and repost it as soon as I can make some time for that.

                      *******************************
                      The Birkenau Pits
Holoscribe Martin Gilbert describes the founding of the Birkenau 
satellite camp of Auschwitz by in this way.  "There, new barracks were 
built, a women's camp was opened on 16 August 1942, electric fences 
erected, and a deep ditch dug around the whole site."  So a few weeks 
before SS-Dr. Kremer arrived for duty at the Auschwitz camp, the 
Birkenau women's camp, which he mentions several times in his diary, 
was opened.  One of the first things done in setting up this camp was to 
dig a ditch around it. The reason for this ditch was not primarily for 
escape prevention, but for drainage.  The Birkenau camp was built in a 
marsh and many former prisoners of the camp remember standing, and 
walking in the mud there.
 
As the plans for the two largest Birkenau crematories were finalized, 
they were changed to make the morgue facilities semi-basements 
surrounded by berms rather than the fully sub-surface structures 
originally planned.  The reason for this change was Birkenau's high 
water table.  Any excavation of any depth in the area is soon  inundated 
with water.  Birkenau was a swamp -- a wallow. It still is today.
 
Evidently, the character of this piece of real estate was not a problem for 
the SS.  Perhaps taking a tip from Moses at the Red Sea,  the Nazis 
found some way to keep the water out of  pits dug to cremate gas 
chamber victims.
 
Hoess,  the SS commander of  Auschwitz referred to these ditches in his  
March 1946 statement.
     "As the new crematorium installations were not ready until 1942 
[sic], the prisoners had to be gassed in temporary gas-chambers and then 
incinerated in graves dug in the ground. [...] They were then burned in 
trenches.  Before incineration gold teeth and rings were removed.  
Firewood was piled up among the bodies and when there was a pile of 
about one hundred bodies in the grave, the wood was lit with rags 
drenched in paraffin.  When the fire had caught, the rest of the bodies 
were thrown on.  The fat which was collecting on the bottom of the 
trenches was poured back on to the fire with buckets[!].  This helped to 
accelerate the burning process, in wet weather particularly[!].   The 
incineration took six to seven hours.  The stench of the burnt bodies 
reached the camp itself when the wind was blowing from the west.  After 
the trenches had been cleared the charred remains were crushed.  This 
was done on a cement slab with wooden pounders.  These remains were 
then taken to a remote part of the Vistula by lorry and poured[?] into the 
river."
 
Similar, and much funnier, recollections come from Filip Mueller, a 
Czech Jew.  The following is supposed to have happened in May, 1942--
a few months before the Birkenau camp was built.
 
 
     "That evening some trucks came, and we had to load the rest, some 
300 bodies, into the trucks.  Then we were taken ... I don't know where, 
but probably to a field at Birkenau.  We were ordered to unload the 
bodies and put them in a pit.  There was a ditch, an artificial pit.  
Suddenly, [Who pulled the handle?] water gushed up from underground 
and swept the bodies down.  When night came, we had to stop that 
horrible work.  We were loaded into the trucks and returned to 
Auschwitz.
     "The next day we were taken to the same place, but the water had 
risen.  Some SS men came with a fire truck and pumped out the water.  
We had to go down into the muddy pit to stack up the bodies.  Bud they 
were slimy.  For example, I grasped a woman, but her hands ... her hand 
was slippery, slimy.  I tried to pull her, but I fell over backward, into the 
water, the mud.  It was the same for all of us.  Up top,  at the edge of the 
pit, Aumeyer and Grabner yelled: 'Get cracking, you filth, you bastards! 
We'll show you, you bunch of shits!'" [No! Don't pull the handle again!] 
[From Lanzmann's SHOAH] 
 
 
In his book EYEWITNESS AUSCHWITZ [pages 130-139], Mueller 
describes these pits as being about 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters by 2 
meters deep and provides a fanciful description on how such a cremation 
was prepared. He agrees with Hoess that these pits were emptied 
afterward and reused.
 
There is something very wrong with this picture.  The Nazis dug pits in 
a marsh to  repeatedly burn bodies in.  The fact that a hole in the ground 
is not necessary, unless the remains are to be buried there afterward, 
doesn't seem to occur to anyone.  In fact, the SS was so set on having a 
pit they supposedly drove a pumper truck in to drain the water.  This is 
simply incredible and very stupid.
 
This moronic behavior is supposed to have continued until the Birkenau 
crematories were completed in the first half of 1943.  Then  the Topf 
ovens were used to cremate the dead. That is until Auschwitz went into 
overdrive.
 
Hoess, Reitlinger,  Filip Mueller, and others state these pits were 
reactivated in 1944 to keep up with the hectic days of the extermination 
of  the Hungarian Jews.  Former inmates remember how the burning in 
these pits lit the skies at night. Hoess, however, contradicts this by 
stating in his memoir  that the burning only took place during the day in 
1944 for fear of creating a beacon that might guide Allied bomber 
planes.  
 
During 54 days of 1944,  approximately 200,000, or  292,000, or  
438,000 Hungarian Jews  were murdered in the equally moronic gas 
chambers of Birkenau.  This is an average of 3704, or 5407, or 8111 
bodies per day.  Since the crematories were supposed to have been 
designed to dispose of 10,000 or 12,000 bodies per day,  the reason this 
influx exceeded resident capacity is unclear.
 
Assuming none of these people lie, but merely exist in their own 
Carrollian parallel universes,  the pit burning started again in May 1944 
and continued through August or later of that year.  This was a period of 
time in which the nearby Buna / petrol plant at Monowitz (a.k.a. 
Auschwitz III) became a target of Allied strategic bombing.
 
Called "Operation Frantic," the Allied air forces implemented a program 
that targeted German fuel producing facilities.  The industrial 
installations at Monowitz were built to convert coal to artificial rubber 
and gasoline.  The Italian chemist, Primo Levi,  has written a memoir of 
his experiences while employed in construction and later as a chemist at 
Monowitz after he was deported there for participating in anti-Nazi 
activities in Italy. 
 
Butz wrote in his 1976 book the following with regard to Operation 
Frantic and the extermination of the Hungarian Jews.
 
     "Now in the Allied bombing operations in World War II it was 
customary to make extensive use of photographic intelligence.  One 
objective was the assessment of damage done by attacks and another was 
the planning of attacks: determining whether or not the target was worth 
attacking and also determining the extent and nature of  the defenses in 
the area of the target.  It is a certainty that intelligence had photographed 
Auschwitz and the surrounding area, rather thoroughly, soon after the 8 
June [1944] order.  In this case the Americans should have been able to 
provide actual photographs of all these Hungarian Jews being moved 
into Auschwitz and shot and burned out in the open.  They should not 
even have been obliged to take any special measures [Sonderbehandlung] 
to provide for us, either at the time of the alleged killings, or at the later 
trial, photographic evidence of their claims. [ ...]
     "Despite all the attention the Hungarian Jews and Auschwitz were 
receiving at the time and despite the Roosevelt promise publicized on 25 
March, the Americans did not lift a finger to either interfere with the 
alleged deportations, by bombing the specific rail lines involved, or with 
the alleged killings by bombing the 'gas chambers'.  They not only failed 
to take the opportunity to provide us with photographic evidence for their 
claims, they also do not seem to have the evidence despite having taken 
the photographs."
 
In 1979 the CIA confirmed what Butz had written in 1976 by releasing a 
copy of the air photographic films taken of Auschwitz during 1944, with 
great fanfare, to the National Archives.  In conjunction with this event, 
the CIA also published an analysis report to go with the photos.  The 
report identifies some burning activity on a 26 June 1944 photo of 
Birkenau, but it is located in the wrong spot.  The other "evidence" of 
the exterminations the CIA analysts identified were dark spots on the 
roofs of the morgues attached to crematories II & III, an open single gate 
to the area surrounding crematory II, and a dark blur which they 
conclude is a group of new arrivals on its "way to gas chambers" on a 25 
August 1944 photo.   
 
John C. Ball, a Canadian geologist, published another analysis of the 
American air photos in 1992. He concluded "every mark which the 
authors of the C.I.A. report used to conclude that homicidal gas 
chambers were in operation on the August 25th photos had been added 
to the photos after they were exposed in 1944."  He further states in no 
case can smoke from the areas of alleged outdoor cremation be 
identified.  The images of the air photos in question cover days in 
December 1943;  April, May, June, August,  September,  November,  
December 1944; and January 1945.
 
Holoscribes excuse this lack of evidence by stating the photos were taken 
on the wrong days, or of the wrong areas.  If the images just covered 
areas a few meters away, or the day before, or the day after, the evidence 
would be there.  This proves nothing.  It simply provides an excuse for 
having no evidence. 
 
The Allies were very interested in what was happening at Monowitz.  
They overflew Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Monowitz on a regular basis 
for over a year.  The Polish resistance and other avenues of intelligence 
were providing them with detailed data on the area.  Zionist leaders were 
also claiming the Hungarian Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz 
while it was allegedly happening.  One would think the Allied 
governments would make an effort, or since they were over-flying the 
camp anyway, the pilots and crew would have reported something out of 
the ordinary. Yet the air photos show nothing to support the pit burning 
claim.  Since imagined events would not appear on a photo, perhaps that 
is why the evidence is not there.  Maybe the cremation pits at Birkenau 
are a product of a sick imagination and never existed in reality.
 
SOURCES:
 
Ball, AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE (1992)
 
Brugioni and Poirier,  THE HOLOCAUST REVISITED: A 
RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU
EXTERMINATION COMPLEX (1979)
 
Buchner, "The Problem of Cremator Hours and Incineration Time" 
                 Journal of Historical Review  Vol II No. 3 (1981)
 
Butz, THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY (1976)
 
Gilbert, AUSCHWITZ AND THE ALLIES(1981)
  
Klee, Dressen, and Riess, "THE GOOD OLD DAYS"(1991)
 
Lanzmann, SHOAH: AN ORAL HISTORY OF THE 
HOLOCAUST(1985)
 
Mattogno, AUSCHWITZ: THE END OF A LEGEND(1994)





From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 15 17:45:42 PDT 1995
Article: 11014 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Trash
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 15:42:51 -0100
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NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>John Morris hit the nail on its head. According to Nazi
>trash, in order to prove the Holocaust, one has to present
>six million corpses, with an autopsy for each one.
>
>BUT, these Nazi trashies have no problem accepting, for instance,
>that Stalin killed 10 million, or 30 million, or, as some claim,
>70 million Kulaks, or Ukrainians, or whatever. In that case,
>they do not demand "physical proof", or tens-of-millions of
>corpses, or documentation, or an "extermination order", or
>whatever.
>
>The Nazi trashies also commonly argue "it would have been
>impossible to kill six million in 4-5 years". However, they
>*do* accept that Stalin killed far more people in about
>the same period... why was it possible for Stalin, and
>impossible for Hitler? That's a question Nazi trashies keep
>ignoring.
>
>The fact is, of course, that all the other genocides that the
>Nazi trashies keep bringing up are *far less documented* than 
>the Holocaust; and if they were objective, they would claim 
>these other genocides didn't take place, just as they claim 
>the Holocaust didn't take place, or that there is not enough
>evidence to prove it took place. But who ever heard of
>"objective Nazi trash"? Only other Nazi trash, of course...
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>"He is a second Dirac, only this time human" | "Atem noar, atem? 
>  -Eugene Wigner, about Richard Feynman      |  Atem &^%$#@!!"
>                                             |  -Alexander Shapira

 Stalin's methods of killing people seem much more credible. In the case of 
the Kulaks food was simply taken away from them, and they were left to die 
right where they lived. This method did not demand many recources. All the 
corpses could be buried by the normal local burial facilities. The Sovjets 
did not have to use resources to transport them long distances in order to 
have them killed and cremated in unusual and imaginative ways. Also a lot of 
people are reported to have simply been shot at the spot. I have never denied 
that the e.g. the "Einsatsgruppen" did not shoot many Jews and other real or 
imaginary enemies. I am only doubting that the Germans had a plan to kill all 
the Jews, and that it was technical possible to kill 6 million Jews the way, 
it is described in the established historiography.
  Concerning the alleged number of persons killed under communist rule I am
sure that there are also a lot of wild exaggerations made for anti-communist
propaganda purposes. In the case of Cambodja I am furthermore sceptical, 
because much of the information about massacres here originate from 
Vietnamese sources, and Vietnam kept Cambodja occupied against international 
law. In order "legitimate" this, it was necessary to keep the impression that 
Vietnam was really just trying to protect Cambodja from the evil Khmer Rouge.
  In WW2 the Allies committed serious violations of the international war
convention by their massbombardments from the air of purely civilian targets. 
Names as Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki speak for themselves. 
If the Allies had not had the holocaust to overshadow their own war crimes 
with, I am sure that they would have problems in "legitimate" the above 
mentioned atrocities.  
  I think that if it had not been for the so-called holocaust, the majority 
of the members of the then UN would never have accepted the foundation of the
Jewish state of Israel on Palestinian-Arab land. I do not think that there 
would have been an Israel at all today, if it has not been for the so-called
holocaust. 
  Therefore Daniel Keren's paranoid scribbling about nazi-trash does not tell
the whole story of why there are good reasons to be sceptical of the 
holocaust story. You do not have to be a nazi to have doubt about the 
holocaust. Just a little bit of common sense will be enough.

Ole Kreiberg



From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 15 17:45:43 PDT 1995
Article: 11113 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 15:25:12 -0100
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  The allegations of Ivan Lagace concerning the possibility that a Corpse 
may explode, if it exposed too suddently to enormous heat without being hit 
by flames, I have from an article written by Ernst Zuendel in a small German 
publication with the title: "KRITIK, die Stimme des Volkes" from May 1988. 
  I thought originally to omit that, because I found it too weird the same
way as the allegation, that tall flames were coming out the chimney of the 
crematory, and corpses were burnt in an inferno in pits while buckets of 
human fat were pulled up from the bottom of the pits. Even if I believed in 
the holocaust I would never believe that. 
  By the way I recently read about an old lady who used to dry her cat in 
the oven at low heat, after she had washed it. Then she bought a micro wave
oven and tried to do the same in this with the result that the cat exploded.
I am of course fully aware the differences between the way a micro oven  
and an ordinary oven functions.

Ole Kreiberg
--
Ole Kreiberg
exit

9


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 16 07:03:56 PDT 1995
Article: 10810 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The Most Guilty People on Earth
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:32:32 -0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:10810 soc.culture.german:60621

In article <45c88h$1jo@xretle.intersource.com>, Joe Weber wrote:
> You forget to ention the 30 million kulaks Stalin starved to eath in the 
>thirty's by throwing them off their land in order to form the 
>collectives.

In fact I did mentioned the Kulaks in my article. Try to read it again. Apart
>from  that I can fully agree with rest of your article.
>
>
>The U.S. prigs who tallk about 'crimes against humanity ' and war crimes 
>forget that  the U.S. forbids the enforcing of an 'ex post facto' law, 
>i.e. one past after the fact.  The Nuremburg kangaroo court tried people 
>for 'crimes'defined after they had occured (ergo ex post facto).  It also 
>guranteed that the leaders, military and civilian, of the loser in all 
>future wars will be tired for these same 'crimes' by the winner.
>
>  This is in the sae catagory as 'human rights' whatever they are, and 
>whoever defined them.  There are, of course, NO NATURAL RIGHTS OF ANY 
>KIND.  Rights are what society will allow its citizens.
> 
>

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 16 07:03:57 PDT 1995
Article: 10811 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: The Most Guilty People on Earth
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:57:05 -0100
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:10811 soc.culture.german:60622

n article <45fmrq$fhq@calvino.alaska.net>, Henry Ayre  wrote:
>
>You've stated the case well, Mr. Kreiberg. You have left for me to state 
>that the heinous crimes enumerated above were real, whereas the 
>"holocaust" is a celluloid masterpiece out of Hollywood. H. Ayre.

Thank you, and let me please add the following:

In my opinion the Nuremberg-trial was nothing but a political show-trial. The
so-called International Tribunal of the UN is a political court too. If you
want everyone to respect the authority of certain court, it must necessarily  
treat everyone with the same standard. The real "crime" of the Bosnian 
serbian leaders is their nationalistic policy. Had the civil-war in Bosnia
had something to do with "just" various political fractions or parties 
fighting each other, the so-called world community would not have bothered
much about the alleged acts of Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Mladic.

  Therefore I am not able to feel any respect for the International Tribunal  
of the UN.

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 16 07:03:58 PDT 1995
Article: 10951 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!in2.uu.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Most Guilty People on Earth
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 10:31:17 -0100
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Message-ID: <5uaVmOev14NO065yn@login.dknet.dk>
References: <1l4VmOev1OJL065yn@login.dknet.dk> <45j3mt$oe2@dns.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <45j3mt$oe2@dns.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>>The real "crime" of the Bosnian serbian leaders is their nationalistic policy.
>>>>>
>  No.  Emphatically not.  The real crime of the Serbs is that they chose to 
>implement what are more or less legitimate political objectives by a system of 
>"ethnic cleansing" so disgusting that it represents genocide.
>
>   --YFE 

In Rwanda in Africa more than one million people were killed in ethnic 
strife. Why are not some the perpetrators wanted by the International 
Tribunal of the UN. Is it, because the same degree of civilized behaviour, 
is not expected of Black people as of White people. Why do we all the time 
have to hear, how particular terrible it is that there is civil war in a 
European country, while there are several civil wars in Africa which the 
so-called world community does not seem to worry much about. Why is there
one standard for Europe and another for Africa. Is there racial undertones 
here? Why is not the USA as keen to try to stop all the wars in Africa as it
is to stop that single war in Europe?  Most of the wars in Africa seem to  
have something to do with ethnic, national or cultural diffences. 

Ole Kreiberg.

Ole Kreiberg


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 16 07:04:00 PDT 1995
Article: 10998 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Burning Pits
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 15:20:14 -0100
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References: <438r23$b1k@news.dknet.dk>     
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

This is an article, I have received by e-mail. I know who sent it, but  
unfortunately not who wrote it:

>This is very interesting. At the moment, I am having a "debate" with Jamie
>Mcnutty about "burning pits" at Birkenau.
 
>Has any of these pits be opened, and were skeletons/bones or anything found?
 
    Apparently not.  Arno Mayer writes on page 363 of his book WHY DID
THE HEAVENS NOT DARKEN? "Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the
four out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the Soviet 
archives may yield significant clues and evidence when they are opened. In 
addition, excavations at the killing sites and their immediate environs may 
also bring forth new information."
 
>Does anybody know anything about the pit near Krema II as seen in the air
>photos?
   
  Though John Ball does not specifically designate the "pit" behind KII as
a "mark"  drawn of aerial photos, he does believe the "pits" near KIII are
drawn there.  Since the pits in both locations look alike, I would hazard a
guess that the pit near KII is also a CIA enhancement of the original 
imagery.  In any case, there is no smoke eminating from these locations in
any of the air photographs.
  
>I am reminded of Blobels [einsatzgruppen B?] "testimony", which asserts that
>many pits full of dead jews were re-opened and the "evidence" destroyed.
 
>Of course, killing thousands of jews, exhuming them and destroying all evidence
>would take a lot of time. One would have thought that the Red Army with some of
>their attacks which overran hundreds of square miles at a time, would have
>prevented this process, and the pits would have been discovered.
 
>--
 

 
I posted the following to alt.revisionism early this year. I am planning to 
expand and repost it as soon as I can make some time for that.

                      *******************************
                      The Birkenau Pits
Holoscribe Martin Gilbert describes the founding of the Birkenau 
satellite camp of Auschwitz by in this way.  "There, new barracks were 
built, a women's camp was opened on 16 August 1942, electric fences 
erected, and a deep ditch dug around the whole site."  So a few weeks 
before SS-Dr. Kremer arrived for duty at the Auschwitz camp, the 
Birkenau women's camp, which he mentions several times in his diary, 
was opened.  One of the first things done in setting up this camp was to 
dig a ditch around it. The reason for this ditch was not primarily for 
escape prevention, but for drainage.  The Birkenau camp was built in a 
marsh and many former prisoners of the camp remember standing, and 
walking in the mud there.
 
As the plans for the two largest Birkenau crematories were finalized, 
they were changed to make the morgue facilities semi-basements 
surrounded by berms rather than the fully sub-surface structures 
originally planned.  The reason for this change was Birkenau's high 
water table.  Any excavation of any depth in the area is soon  inundated 
with water.  Birkenau was a swamp -- a wallow. It still is today.
 
Evidently, the character of this piece of real estate was not a problem for 
the SS.  Perhaps taking a tip from Moses at the Red Sea,  the Nazis 
found some way to keep the water out of  pits dug to cremate gas 
chamber victims.
 
Hoess,  the SS commander of  Auschwitz referred to these ditches in his  
March 1946 statement.
     "As the new crematorium installations were not ready until 1942 
[sic], the prisoners had to be gassed in temporary gas-chambers and then 
incinerated in graves dug in the ground. [...] They were then burned in 
trenches.  Before incineration gold teeth and rings were removed.  
Firewood was piled up among the bodies and when there was a pile of 
about one hundred bodies in the grave, the wood was lit with rags 
drenched in paraffin.  When the fire had caught, the rest of the bodies 
were thrown on.  The fat which was collecting on the bottom of the 
trenches was poured back on to the fire with buckets[!].  This helped to 
accelerate the burning process, in wet weather particularly[!].   The 
incineration took six to seven hours.  The stench of the burnt bodies 
reached the camp itself when the wind was blowing from the west.  After 
the trenches had been cleared the charred remains were crushed.  This 
was done on a cement slab with wooden pounders.  These remains were 
then taken to a remote part of the Vistula by lorry and poured[?] into the 
river."
 
Similar, and much funnier, recollections come from Filip Mueller, a 
Czech Jew.  The following is supposed to have happened in May, 1942--
a few months before the Birkenau camp was built.
 
 
     "That evening some trucks came, and we had to load the rest, some 
300 bodies, into the trucks.  Then we were taken ... I don't know where, 
but probably to a field at Birkenau.  We were ordered to unload the 
bodies and put them in a pit.  There was a ditch, an artificial pit.  
Suddenly, [Who pulled the handle?] water gushed up from underground 
and swept the bodies down.  When night came, we had to stop that 
horrible work.  We were loaded into the trucks and returned to 
Auschwitz.
     "The next day we were taken to the same place, but the water had 
risen.  Some SS men came with a fire truck and pumped out the water.  
We had to go down into the muddy pit to stack up the bodies.  Bud they 
were slimy.  For example, I grasped a woman, but her hands ... her hand 
was slippery, slimy.  I tried to pull her, but I fell over backward, into the 
water, the mud.  It was the same for all of us.  Up top,  at the edge of the 
pit, Aumeyer and Grabner yelled: 'Get cracking, you filth, you bastards! 
We'll show you, you bunch of shits!'" [No! Don't pull the handle again!] 
[From Lanzmann's SHOAH] 
 
 
In his book EYEWITNESS AUSCHWITZ [pages 130-139], Mueller 
describes these pits as being about 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters by 2 
meters deep and provides a fanciful description on how such a cremation 
was prepared. He agrees with Hoess that these pits were emptied 
afterward and reused.
 
There is something very wrong with this picture.  The Nazis dug pits in 
a marsh to  repeatedly burn bodies in.  The fact that a hole in the ground 
is not necessary, unless the remains are to be buried there afterward, 
doesn't seem to occur to anyone.  In fact, the SS was so set on having a 
pit they supposedly drove a pumper truck in to drain the water.  This is 
simply incredible and very stupid.
 
This moronic behavior is supposed to have continued until the Birkenau 
crematories were completed in the first half of 1943.  Then  the Topf 
ovens were used to cremate the dead. That is until Auschwitz went into 
overdrive.
 
Hoess, Reitlinger,  Filip Mueller, and others state these pits were 
reactivated in 1944 to keep up with the hectic days of the extermination 
of  the Hungarian Jews.  Former inmates remember how the burning in 
these pits lit the skies at night. Hoess, however, contradicts this by 
stating in his memoir  that the burning only took place during the day in 
1944 for fear of creating a beacon that might guide Allied bomber 
planes.  
 
During 54 days of 1944,  approximately 200,000, or  292,000, or  
438,000 Hungarian Jews  were murdered in the equally moronic gas 
chambers of Birkenau.  This is an average of 3704, or 5407, or 8111 
bodies per day.  Since the crematories were supposed to have been 
designed to dispose of 10,000 or 12,000 bodies per day,  the reason this 
influx exceeded resident capacity is unclear.
 
Assuming none of these people lie, but merely exist in their own 
Carrollian parallel universes,  the pit burning started again in May 1944 
and continued through August or later of that year.  This was a period of 
time in which the nearby Buna / petrol plant at Monowitz (a.k.a. 
Auschwitz III) became a target of Allied strategic bombing.
 
Called "Operation Frantic," the Allied air forces implemented a program 
that targeted German fuel producing facilities.  The industrial 
installations at Monowitz were built to convert coal to artificial rubber 
and gasoline.  The Italian chemist, Primo Levi,  has written a memoir of 
his experiences while employed in construction and later as a chemist at 
Monowitz after he was deported there for participating in anti-Nazi 
activities in Italy. 
 
Butz wrote in his 1976 book the following with regard to Operation 
Frantic and the extermination of the Hungarian Jews.
 
     "Now in the Allied bombing operations in World War II it was 
customary to make extensive use of photographic intelligence.  One 
objective was the assessment of damage done by attacks and another was 
the planning of attacks: determining whether or not the target was worth 
attacking and also determining the extent and nature of  the defenses in 
the area of the target.  It is a certainty that intelligence had photographed 
Auschwitz and the surrounding area, rather thoroughly, soon after the 8 
June [1944] order.  In this case the Americans should have been able to 
provide actual photographs of all these Hungarian Jews being moved 
into Auschwitz and shot and burned out in the open.  They should not 
even have been obliged to take any special measures [Sonderbehandlung] 
to provide for us, either at the time of the alleged killings, or at the later 
trial, photographic evidence of their claims. [ ...]
     "Despite all the attention the Hungarian Jews and Auschwitz were 
receiving at the time and despite the Roosevelt promise publicized on 25 
March, the Americans did not lift a finger to either interfere with the 
alleged deportations, by bombing the specific rail lines involved, or with 
the alleged killings by bombing the 'gas chambers'.  They not only failed 
to take the opportunity to provide us with photographic evidence for their 
claims, they also do not seem to have the evidence despite having taken 
the photographs."
 
In 1979 the CIA confirmed what Butz had written in 1976 by releasing a 
copy of the air photographic films taken of Auschwitz during 1944, with 
great fanfare, to the National Archives.  In conjunction with this event, 
the CIA also published an analysis report to go with the photos.  The 
report identifies some burning activity on a 26 June 1944 photo of 
Birkenau, but it is located in the wrong spot.  The other "evidence" of 
the exterminations the CIA analysts identified were dark spots on the 
roofs of the morgues attached to crematories II & III, an open single gate 
to the area surrounding crematory II, and a dark blur which they 
conclude is a group of new arrivals on its "way to gas chambers" on a 25 
August 1944 photo.   
 
John C. Ball, a Canadian geologist, published another analysis of the 
American air photos in 1992. He concluded "every mark which the 
authors of the C.I.A. report used to conclude that homicidal gas 
chambers were in operation on the August 25th photos had been added 
to the photos after they were exposed in 1944."  He further states in no 
case can smoke from the areas of alleged outdoor cremation be 
identified.  The images of the air photos in question cover days in 
December 1943;  April, May, June, August,  September,  November,  
December 1944; and January 1945.
 
Holoscribes excuse this lack of evidence by stating the photos were taken 
on the wrong days, or of the wrong areas.  If the images just covered 
areas a few meters away, or the day before, or the day after, the evidence 
would be there.  This proves nothing.  It simply provides an excuse for 
having no evidence. 
 
The Allies were very interested in what was happening at Monowitz.  
They overflew Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Monowitz on a regular basis 
for over a year.  The Polish resistance and other avenues of intelligence 
were providing them with detailed data on the area.  Zionist leaders were 
also claiming the Hungarian Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz 
while it was allegedly happening.  One would think the Allied 
governments would make an effort, or since they were over-flying the 
camp anyway, the pilots and crew would have reported something out of 
the ordinary. Yet the air photos show nothing to support the pit burning 
claim.  Since imagined events would not appear on a photo, perhaps that 
is why the evidence is not there.  Maybe the cremation pits at Birkenau 
are a product of a sick imagination and never existed in reality.
 
SOURCES:
 
Ball, AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE (1992)
 
Brugioni and Poirier,  THE HOLOCAUST REVISITED: A 
RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU
EXTERMINATION COMPLEX (1979)
 
Buchner, "The Problem of Cremator Hours and Incineration Time" 
                 Journal of Historical Review  Vol II No. 3 (1981)
 
Butz, THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY (1976)
 
Gilbert, AUSCHWITZ AND THE ALLIES(1981)
  
Klee, Dressen, and Riess, "THE GOOD OLD DAYS"(1991)
 
Lanzmann, SHOAH: AN ORAL HISTORY OF THE 
HOLOCAUST(1985)
 
Mattogno, AUSCHWITZ: THE END OF A LEGEND(1994)

This is an article somebody sent me by e-mail. 

>This is very interesting. At the moment, I am having a "debate" with Jamie
>Mcnutty about "burning pits" at Birkenau.
 
>Has any of these pits be opened, and were skeletons/bones or anything found?
 
    Apparently not.  Arno Mayer writes on page 363 of his book WHY DID
THE HEAVENS NOT DARKEN? "Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the
four out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the Soviet 
archives may yield significant clues and evidence when they are opened. In 
addition, excavations at the killing sites and their immediate environs may 
also bring forth new information."
 
>Does anybody know anything about the pit near Krema II as seen in the air
>photos?
   
  Though John Ball does not specifically designate the "pit" behind KII as
a "mark"  drawn of aerial photos, he does believe the "pits" near KIII are
drawn there.  Since the pits in both locations look alike, I would hazard a
guess that the pit near KII is also a CIA enhancement of the original 
imagery.  In any case, there is no smoke eminating from these locations in
any of the air photographs.
  
>I am reminded of Blobels [einsatzgruppen B?] "testimony", which asserts that
>many pits full of dead jews were re-opened and the "evidence" destroyed.
 
>Of course, killing thousands of jews, exhuming them and destroying all evidence
>would take a lot of time. One would have thought that the Red Army with some of
>their attacks which overran hundreds of square miles at a time, would have
>prevented this process, and the pits would have been discovered.
 
>--
 

 
I posted the following to alt.revisionism early this year. I am planning to 
expand and repost it as soon as I can make some time for that.

                      *******************************
                      The Birkenau Pits
Holoscribe Martin Gilbert describes the founding of the Birkenau 
satellite camp of Auschwitz by in this way.  "There, new barracks were 
built, a women's camp was opened on 16 August 1942, electric fences 
erected, and a deep ditch dug around the whole site."  So a few weeks 
before SS-Dr. Kremer arrived for duty at the Auschwitz camp, the 
Birkenau women's camp, which he mentions several times in his diary, 
was opened.  One of the first things done in setting up this camp was to 
dig a ditch around it. The reason for this ditch was not primarily for 
escape prevention, but for drainage.  The Birkenau camp was built in a 
marsh and many former prisoners of the camp remember standing, and 
walking in the mud there.
 
As the plans for the two largest Birkenau crematories were finalized, 
they were changed to make the morgue facilities semi-basements 
surrounded by berms rather than the fully sub-surface structures 
originally planned.  The reason for this change was Birkenau's high 
water table.  Any excavation of any depth in the area is soon  inundated 
with water.  Birkenau was a swamp -- a wallow. It still is today.
 
Evidently, the character of this piece of real estate was not a problem for 
the SS.  Perhaps taking a tip from Moses at the Red Sea,  the Nazis 
found some way to keep the water out of  pits dug to cremate gas 
chamber victims.
 
Hoess,  the SS commander of  Auschwitz referred to these ditches in his  
March 1946 statement.
     "As the new crematorium installations were not ready until 1942 
[sic], the prisoners had to be gassed in temporary gas-chambers and then 
incinerated in graves dug in the ground. [...] They were then burned in 
trenches.  Before incineration gold teeth and rings were removed.  
Firewood was piled up among the bodies and when there was a pile of 
about one hundred bodies in the grave, the wood was lit with rags 
drenched in paraffin.  When the fire had caught, the rest of the bodies 
were thrown on.  The fat which was collecting on the bottom of the 
trenches was poured back on to the fire with buckets[!].  This helped to 
accelerate the burning process, in wet weather particularly[!].   The 
incineration took six to seven hours.  The stench of the burnt bodies 
reached the camp itself when the wind was blowing from the west.  After 
the trenches had been cleared the charred remains were crushed.  This 
was done on a cement slab with wooden pounders.  These remains were 
then taken to a remote part of the Vistula by lorry and poured[?] into the 
river."
 
Similar, and much funnier, recollections come from Filip Mueller, a 
Czech Jew.  The following is supposed to have happened in May, 1942--
a few months before the Birkenau camp was built.
 
 
     "That evening some trucks came, and we had to load the rest, some 
300 bodies, into the trucks.  Then we were taken ... I don't know where, 
but probably to a field at Birkenau.  We were ordered to unload the 
bodies and put them in a pit.  There was a ditch, an artificial pit.  
Suddenly, [Who pulled the handle?] water gushed up from underground 
and swept the bodies down.  When night came, we had to stop that 
horrible work.  We were loaded into the trucks and returned to 
Auschwitz.
     "The next day we were taken to the same place, but the water had 
risen.  Some SS men came with a fire truck and pumped out the water.  
We had to go down into the muddy pit to stack up the bodies.  Bud they 
were slimy.  For example, I grasped a woman, but her hands ... her hand 
was slippery, slimy.  I tried to pull her, but I fell over backward, into the 
water, the mud.  It was the same for all of us.  Up top,  at the edge of the 
pit, Aumeyer and Grabner yelled: 'Get cracking, you filth, you bastards! 
We'll show you, you bunch of shits!'" [No! Don't pull the handle again!] 
[From Lanzmann's SHOAH] 
 
 
In his book EYEWITNESS AUSCHWITZ [pages 130-139], Mueller 
describes these pits as being about 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters by 2 
meters deep and provides a fanciful description on how such a cremation 
was prepared. He agrees with Hoess that these pits were emptied 
afterward and reused.
 
There is something very wrong with this picture.  The Nazis dug pits in 
a marsh to  repeatedly burn bodies in.  The fact that a hole in the ground 
is not necessary, unless the remains are to be buried there afterward, 
doesn't seem to occur to anyone.  In fact, the SS was so set on having a 
pit they supposedly drove a pumper truck in to drain the water.  This is 
simply incredible and very stupid.
 
This moronic behavior is supposed to have continued until the Birkenau 
crematories were completed in the first half of 1943.  Then  the Topf 
ovens were used to cremate the dead. That is until Auschwitz went into 
overdrive.
 
Hoess, Reitlinger,  Filip Mueller, and others state these pits were 
reactivated in 1944 to keep up with the hectic days of the extermination 
of  the Hungarian Jews.  Former inmates remember how the burning in 
these pits lit the skies at night. Hoess, however, contradicts this by 
stating in his memoir  that the burning only took place during the day in 
1944 for fear of creating a beacon that might guide Allied bomber 
planes.  
 
During 54 days of 1944,  approximately 200,000, or  292,000, or  
438,000 Hungarian Jews  were murdered in the equally moronic gas 
chambers of Birkenau.  This is an average of 3704, or 5407, or 8111 
bodies per day.  Since the crematories were supposed to have been 
designed to dispose of 10,000 or 12,000 bodies per day,  the reason this 
influx exceeded resident capacity is unclear.
 
Assuming none of these people lie, but merely exist in their own 
Carrollian parallel universes,  the pit burning started again in May 1944 
and continued through August or later of that year.  This was a period of 
time in which the nearby Buna / petrol plant at Monowitz (a.k.a. 
Auschwitz III) became a target of Allied strategic bombing.
 
Called "Operation Frantic," the Allied air forces implemented a program 
that targeted German fuel producing facilities.  The industrial 
installations at Monowitz were built to convert coal to artificial rubber 
and gasoline.  The Italian chemist, Primo Levi,  has written a memoir of 
his experiences while employed in construction and later as a chemist at 
Monowitz after he was deported there for participating in anti-Nazi 
activities in Italy. 
 
Butz wrote in his 1976 book the following with regard to Operation 
Frantic and the extermination of the Hungarian Jews.
 
     "Now in the Allied bombing operations in World War II it was 
customary to make extensive use of photographic intelligence.  One 
objective was the assessment of damage done by attacks and another was 
the planning of attacks: determining whether or not the target was worth 
attacking and also determining the extent and nature of  the defenses in 
the area of the target.  It is a certainty that intelligence had photographed 
Auschwitz and the surrounding area, rather thoroughly, soon after the 8 
June [1944] order.  In this case the Americans should have been able to 
provide actual photographs of all these Hungarian Jews being moved 
into Auschwitz and shot and burned out in the open.  They should not 
even have been obliged to take any special measures [Sonderbehandlung] 
to provide for us, either at the time of the alleged killings, or at the later 
trial, photographic evidence of their claims. [ ...]
     "Despite all the attention the Hungarian Jews and Auschwitz were 
receiving at the time and despite the Roosevelt promise publicized on 25 
March, the Americans did not lift a finger to either interfere with the 
alleged deportations, by bombing the specific rail lines involved, or with 
the alleged killings by bombing the 'gas chambers'.  They not only failed 
to take the opportunity to provide us with photographic evidence for their 
claims, they also do not seem to have the evidence despite having taken 
the photographs."
 
In 1979 the CIA confirmed what Butz had written in 1976 by releasing a 
copy of the air photographic films taken of Auschwitz during 1944, with 
great fanfare, to the National Archives.  In conjunction with this event, 
the CIA also published an analysis report to go with the photos.  The 
report identifies some burning activity on a 26 June 1944 photo of 
Birkenau, but it is located in the wrong spot.  The other "evidence" of 
the exterminations the CIA analysts identified were dark spots on the 
roofs of the morgues attached to crematories II & III, an open single gate 
to the area surrounding crematory II, and a dark blur which they 
conclude is a group of new arrivals on its "way to gas chambers" on a 25 
August 1944 photo.   
 
John C. Ball, a Canadian geologist, published another analysis of the 
American air photos in 1992. He concluded "every mark which the 
authors of the C.I.A. report used to conclude that homicidal gas 
chambers were in operation on the August 25th photos had been added 
to the photos after they were exposed in 1944."  He further states in no 
case can smoke from the areas of alleged outdoor cremation be 
identified.  The images of the air photos in question cover days in 
December 1943;  April, May, June, August,  September,  November,  
December 1944; and January 1945.
 
Holoscribes excuse this lack of evidence by stating the photos were taken 
on the wrong days, or of the wrong areas.  If the images just covered 
areas a few meters away, or the day before, or the day after, the evidence 
would be there.  This proves nothing.  It simply provides an excuse for 
having no evidence. 
 
The Allies were very interested in what was happening at Monowitz.  
They overflew Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Monowitz on a regular basis 
for over a year.  The Polish resistance and other avenues of intelligence 
were providing them with detailed data on the area.  Zionist leaders were 
also claiming the Hungarian Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz 
while it was allegedly happening.  One would think the Allied 
governments would make an effort, or since they were over-flying the 
camp anyway, the pilots and crew would have reported something out of 
the ordinary. Yet the air photos show nothing to support the pit burning 
claim.  Since imagined events would not appear on a photo, perhaps that 
is why the evidence is not there.  Maybe the cremation pits at Birkenau 
are a product of a sick imagination and never existed in reality.
 
SOURCES:
 
Ball, AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE (1992)
 
Brugioni and Poirier,  THE HOLOCAUST REVISITED: A 
RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU
EXTERMINATION COMPLEX (1979)
 
Buchner, "The Problem of Cremator Hours and Incineration Time" 
                 Journal of Historical Review  Vol II No. 3 (1981)
 
Butz, THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY (1976)
 
Gilbert, AUSCHWITZ AND THE ALLIES(1981)
  
Klee, Dressen, and Riess, "THE GOOD OLD DAYS"(1991)
 
Lanzmann, SHOAH: AN ORAL HISTORY OF THE 
HOLOCAUST(1985)
 
Mattogno, AUSCHWITZ: THE END OF A LEGEND(1994)

This is an article somebody sent me by e-mail. 

>This is very interesting. At the moment, I am having a "debate" with Jamie
>Mcnutty about "burning pits" at Birkenau.
 
>Has any of these pits be opened, and were skeletons/bones or anything found?
 
    Apparently not.  Arno Mayer writes on page 363 of his book WHY DID
THE HEAVENS NOT DARKEN? "Since Auschwitz and Majdanek, as well as the
four out-and-out killing centers, were liberated by the Red Army, the Soviet 
archives may yield significant clues and evidence when they are opened. In 
addition, excavations at the killing sites and their immediate environs may 
also bring forth new information."
 
>Does anybody know anything about the pit near Krema II as seen in the air
>photos?
   
  Though John Ball does not specifically designate the "pit" behind KII as
a "mark"  drawn of aerial photos, he does believe the "pits" near KIII are
drawn there.  Since the pits in both locations look alike, I would hazard a
guess that the pit near KII is also a CIA enhancement of the original 
imagery.  In any case, there is no smoke eminating from these locations in
any of the air photographs.
  
>I am reminded of Blobels [einsatzgruppen B?] "testimony", which asserts that
>many pits full of dead jews were re-opened and the "evidence" destroyed.
 
>Of course, killing thousands of jews, exhuming them and destroying all evidence
>would take a lot of time. One would have thought that the Red Army with some of
>their attacks which overran hundreds of square miles at a time, would have
>prevented this process, and the pits would have been discovered.
 
>--
 

 
I posted the following to alt.revisionism early this year. I am planning to 
expand and repost it as soon as I can make some time for that.

                      *******************************
                      The Birkenau Pits
Holoscribe Martin Gilbert describes the founding of the Birkenau 
satellite camp of Auschwitz by in this way.  "There, new barracks were 
built, a women's camp was opened on 16 August 1942, electric fences 
erected, and a deep ditch dug around the whole site."  So a few weeks 
before SS-Dr. Kremer arrived for duty at the Auschwitz camp, the 
Birkenau women's camp, which he mentions several times in his diary, 
was opened.  One of the first things done in setting up this camp was to 
dig a ditch around it. The reason for this ditch was not primarily for 
escape prevention, but for drainage.  The Birkenau camp was built in a 
marsh and many former prisoners of the camp remember standing, and 
walking in the mud there.
 
As the plans for the two largest Birkenau crematories were finalized, 
they were changed to make the morgue facilities semi-basements 
surrounded by berms rather than the fully sub-surface structures 
originally planned.  The reason for this change was Birkenau's high 
water table.  Any excavation of any depth in the area is soon  inundated 
with water.  Birkenau was a swamp -- a wallow. It still is today.
 
Evidently, the character of this piece of real estate was not a problem for 
the SS.  Perhaps taking a tip from Moses at the Red Sea,  the Nazis 
found some way to keep the water out of  pits dug to cremate gas 
chamber victims.
 
Hoess,  the SS commander of  Auschwitz referred to these ditches in his  
March 1946 statement.
     "As the new crematorium installations were not ready until 1942 
[sic], the prisoners had to be gassed in temporary gas-chambers and then 
incinerated in graves dug in the ground. [...] They were then burned in 
trenches.  Before incineration gold teeth and rings were removed.  
Firewood was piled up among the bodies and when there was a pile of 
about one hundred bodies in the grave, the wood was lit with rags 
drenched in paraffin.  When the fire had caught, the rest of the bodies 
were thrown on.  The fat which was collecting on the bottom of the 
trenches was poured back on to the fire with buckets[!].  This helped to 
accelerate the burning process, in wet weather particularly[!].   The 
incineration took six to seven hours.  The stench of the burnt bodies 
reached the camp itself when the wind was blowing from the west.  After 
the trenches had been cleared the charred remains were crushed.  This 
was done on a cement slab with wooden pounders.  These remains were 
then taken to a remote part of the Vistula by lorry and poured[?] into the 
river."
 
Similar, and much funnier, recollections come from Filip Mueller, a 
Czech Jew.  The following is supposed to have happened in May, 1942--
a few months before the Birkenau camp was built.
 
 
     "That evening some trucks came, and we had to load the rest, some 
300 bodies, into the trucks.  Then we were taken ... I don't know where, 
but probably to a field at Birkenau.  We were ordered to unload the 
bodies and put them in a pit.  There was a ditch, an artificial pit.  
Suddenly, [Who pulled the handle?] water gushed up from underground 
and swept the bodies down.  When night came, we had to stop that 
horrible work.  We were loaded into the trucks and returned to 
Auschwitz.
     "The next day we were taken to the same place, but the water had 
risen.  Some SS men came with a fire truck and pumped out the water.  
We had to go down into the muddy pit to stack up the bodies.  Bud they 
were slimy.  For example, I grasped a woman, but her hands ... her hand 
was slippery, slimy.  I tried to pull her, but I fell over backward, into the 
water, the mud.  It was the same for all of us.  Up top,  at the edge of the 
pit, Aumeyer and Grabner yelled: 'Get cracking, you filth, you bastards! 
We'll show you, you bunch of shits!'" [No! Don't pull the handle again!] 
[From Lanzmann's SHOAH] 
 
 
In his book EYEWITNESS AUSCHWITZ [pages 130-139], Mueller 
describes these pits as being about 40 or 50 meters by 8 meters by 2 
meters deep and provides a fanciful description on how such a cremation 
was prepared. He agrees with Hoess that these pits were emptied 
afterward and reused.
 
There is something very wrong with this picture.  The Nazis dug pits in 
a marsh to  repeatedly burn bodies in.  The fact that a hole in the ground 
is not necessary, unless the remains are to be buried there afterward, 
doesn't seem to occur to anyone.  In fact, the SS was so set on having a 
pit they supposedly drove a pumper truck in to drain the water.  This is 
simply incredible and very stupid.
 
This moronic behavior is supposed to have continued until the Birkenau 
crematories were completed in the first half of 1943.  Then  the Topf 
ovens were used to cremate the dead. That is until Auschwitz went into 
overdrive.
 
Hoess, Reitlinger,  Filip Mueller, and others state these pits were 
reactivated in 1944 to keep up with the hectic days of the extermination 
of  the Hungarian Jews.  Former inmates remember how the burning in 
these pits lit the skies at night. Hoess, however, contradicts this by 
stating in his memoir  that the burning only took place during the day in 
1944 for fear of creating a beacon that might guide Allied bomber 
planes.  
 
During 54 days of 1944,  approximately 200,000, or  292,000, or  
438,000 Hungarian Jews  were murdered in the equally moronic gas 
chambers of Birkenau.  This is an average of 3704, or 5407, or 8111 
bodies per day.  Since the crematories were supposed to have been 
designed to dispose of 10,000 or 12,000 bodies per day,  the reason this 
influx exceeded resident capacity is unclear.
 
Assuming none of these people lie, but merely exist in their own 
Carrollian parallel universes,  the pit burning started again in May 1944 
and continued through August or later of that year.  This was a period of 
time in which the nearby Buna / petrol plant at Monowitz (a.k.a. 
Auschwitz III) became a target of Allied strategic bombing.
 
Called "Operation Frantic," the Allied air forces implemented a program 
that targeted German fuel producing facilities.  The industrial 
installations at Monowitz were built to convert coal to artificial rubber 
and gasoline.  The Italian chemist, Primo Levi,  has written a memoir of 
his experiences while employed in construction and later as a chemist at 
Monowitz after he was deported there for participating in anti-Nazi 
activities in Italy. 
 
Butz wrote in his 1976 book the following with regard to Operation 
Frantic and the extermination of the Hungarian Jews.
 
     "Now in the Allied bombing operations in World War II it was 
customary to make extensive use of photographic intelligence.  One 
objective was the assessment of damage done by attacks and another was 
the planning of attacks: determining whether or not the target was worth 
attacking and also determining the extent and nature of  the defenses in 
the area of the target.  It is a certainty that intelligence had photographed 
Auschwitz and the surrounding area, rather thoroughly, soon after the 8 
June [1944] order.  In this case the Americans should have been able to 
provide actual photographs of all these Hungarian Jews being moved 
into Auschwitz and shot and burned out in the open.  They should not 
even have been obliged to take any special measures [Sonderbehandlung] 
to provide for us, either at the time of the alleged killings, or at the later 
trial, photographic evidence of their claims. [ ...]
     "Despite all the attention the Hungarian Jews and Auschwitz were 
receiving at the time and despite the Roosevelt promise publicized on 25 
March, the Americans did not lift a finger to either interfere with the 
alleged deportations, by bombing the specific rail lines involved, or with 
the alleged killings by bombing the 'gas chambers'.  They not only failed 
to take the opportunity to provide us with photographic evidence for their 
claims, they also do not seem to have the evidence despite having taken 
the photographs."
 
In 1979 the CIA confirmed what Butz had written in 1976 by releasing a 
copy of the air photographic films taken of Auschwitz during 1944, with 
great fanfare, to the National Archives.  In conjunction with this event, 
the CIA also published an analysis report to go with the photos.  The 
report identifies some burning activity on a 26 June 1944 photo of 
Birkenau, but it is located in the wrong spot.  The other "evidence" of 
the exterminations the CIA analysts identified were dark spots on the 
roofs of the morgues attached to crematories II & III, an open single gate 
to the area surrounding crematory II, and a dark blur which they 
conclude is a group of new arrivals on its "way to gas chambers" on a 25 
August 1944 photo.   
 
John C. Ball, a Canadian geologist, published another analysis of the 
American air photos in 1992. He concluded "every mark which the 
authors of the C.I.A. report used to conclude that homicidal gas 
chambers were in operation on the August 25th photos had been added 
to the photos after they were exposed in 1944."  He further states in no 
case can smoke from the areas of alleged outdoor cremation be 
identified.  The images of the air photos in question cover days in 
December 1943;  April, May, June, August,  September,  November,  
December 1944; and January 1945.
 
Holoscribes excuse this lack of evidence by stating the photos were taken 
on the wrong days, or of the wrong areas.  If the images just covered 
areas a few meters away, or the day before, or the day after, the evidence 
would be there.  This proves nothing.  It simply provides an excuse for 
having no evidence. 
 
The Allies were very interested in what was happening at Monowitz.  
They overflew Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Monowitz on a regular basis 
for over a year.  The Polish resistance and other avenues of intelligence 
were providing them with detailed data on the area.  Zionist leaders were 
also claiming the Hungarian Jews were being exterminated at Auschwitz 
while it was allegedly happening.  One would think the Allied 
governments would make an effort, or since they were over-flying the 
camp anyway, the pilots and crew would have reported something out of 
the ordinary. Yet the air photos show nothing to support the pit burning 
claim.  Since imagined events would not appear on a photo, perhaps that 
is why the evidence is not there.  Maybe the cremation pits at Birkenau 
are a product of a sick imagination and never existed in reality.
 
SOURCES:
 
Ball, AIR PHOTO EVIDENCE (1992)
 
Brugioni and Poirier,  THE HOLOCAUST REVISITED: A 
RETROSPECTIVE ANALYSIS OF THE AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU
EXTERMINATION COMPLEX (1979)
 
Buchner, "The Problem of Cremator Hours and Incineration Time" 
                 Journal of Historical Review  Vol II No. 3 (1981)
 
Butz, THE HOAX OF THE TWENTIETH CENTURY (1976)
 
Gilbert, AUSCHWITZ AND THE ALLIES(1981)
  
Klee, Dressen, and Riess, "THE GOOD OLD DAYS"(1991)
 
Lanzmann, SHOAH: AN ORAL HISTORY OF THE 
HOLOCAUST(1985)
 
Mattogno, AUSCHWITZ: THE END OF A LEGEND(1994)





From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 16 07:04:01 PDT 1995
Article: 11014 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Trash
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 15:42:51 -0100
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In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>John Morris hit the nail on its head. According to Nazi
>trash, in order to prove the Holocaust, one has to present
>six million corpses, with an autopsy for each one.
>
>BUT, these Nazi trashies have no problem accepting, for instance,
>that Stalin killed 10 million, or 30 million, or, as some claim,
>70 million Kulaks, or Ukrainians, or whatever. In that case,
>they do not demand "physical proof", or tens-of-millions of
>corpses, or documentation, or an "extermination order", or
>whatever.
>
>The Nazi trashies also commonly argue "it would have been
>impossible to kill six million in 4-5 years". However, they
>*do* accept that Stalin killed far more people in about
>the same period... why was it possible for Stalin, and
>impossible for Hitler? That's a question Nazi trashies keep
>ignoring.
>
>The fact is, of course, that all the other genocides that the
>Nazi trashies keep bringing up are *far less documented* than 
>the Holocaust; and if they were objective, they would claim 
>these other genocides didn't take place, just as they claim 
>the Holocaust didn't take place, or that there is not enough
>evidence to prove it took place. But who ever heard of
>"objective Nazi trash"? Only other Nazi trash, of course...
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>
>-- 
>"He is a second Dirac, only this time human" | "Atem noar, atem? 
>  -Eugene Wigner, about Richard Feynman      |  Atem &^%$#@!!"
>                                             |  -Alexander Shapira

 Stalin's methods of killing people seem much more credible. In the case of 
the Kulaks food was simply taken away from them, and they were left to die 
right where they lived. This method did not demand many recources. All the 
corpses could be buried by the normal local burial facilities. The Sovjets 
did not have to use resources to transport them long distances in order to 
have them killed and cremated in unusual and imaginative ways. Also a lot of 
people are reported to have simply been shot at the spot. I have never denied 
that the e.g. the "Einsatsgruppen" did not shoot many Jews and other real or 
imaginary enemies. I am only doubting that the Germans had a plan to kill all 
the Jews, and that it was technical possible to kill 6 million Jews the way, 
it is described in the established historiography.
  Concerning the alleged number of persons killed under communist rule I am
sure that there are also a lot of wild exaggerations made for anti-communist
propaganda purposes. In the case of Cambodja I am furthermore sceptical, 
because much of the information about massacres here originate from 
Vietnamese sources, and Vietnam kept Cambodja occupied against international 
law. In order "legitimate" this, it was necessary to keep the impression that 
Vietnam was really just trying to protect Cambodja from the evil Khmer Rouge.
  In WW2 the Allies committed serious violations of the international war
convention by their massbombardments from the air of purely civilian targets. 
Names as Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki speak for themselves. 
If the Allies had not had the holocaust to overshadow their own war crimes 
with, I am sure that they would have problems in "legitimate" the above 
mentioned atrocities.  
  I think that if it had not been for the so-called holocaust, the majority 
of the members of the then UN would never have accepted the foundation of the
Jewish state of Israel on Palestinian-Arab land. I do not think that there 
would have been an Israel at all today, if it has not been for the so-called
holocaust. 
  Therefore Daniel Keren's paranoid scribbling about nazi-trash does not tell
the whole story of why there are good reasons to be sceptical of the 
holocaust story. You do not have to be a nazi to have doubt about the 
holocaust. Just a little bit of common sense will be enough.

Ole Kreiberg



From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 16 07:04:03 PDT 1995
Article: 11113 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 1995 15:25:12 -0100
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  The allegations of Ivan Lagace concerning the possibility that a Corpse 
may explode, if it exposed too suddently to enormous heat without being hit 
by flames, I have from an article written by Ernst Zuendel in a small German 
publication with the title: "KRITIK, die Stimme des Volkes" from May 1988. 
  I thought originally to omit that, because I found it too weird the same
way as the allegation, that tall flames were coming out the chimney of the 
crematory, and corpses were burnt in an inferno in pits while buckets of 
human fat were pulled up from the bottom of the pits. Even if I believed in 
the holocaust I would never believe that. 
  By the way I recently read about an old lady who used to dry her cat in 
the oven at low heat, after she had washed it. Then she bought a micro wave
oven and tried to do the same in this with the result that the cat exploded.
I am of course fully aware the differences between the way a micro oven  
and an ordinary oven functions.

Ole Kreiberg
--
Ole Kreiberg
exit

9


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 16 07:25:41 PDT 1995
Article: 11234 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Please answer my question, John Morris
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 1995 10:01:19 -0100
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  You have still not answered my question of, where I can find a specimen of
the type of blast furnace crematory that you so often mention. 

  As I have told you before a lot of the German concentration camps have  
been preserved as museums. Crematories are here on display. Now in which 
of the camps may I find a blast furnace crematory. As far as I know, Ivan
Lagace did not form his opinion, until he had inspected the crematories on
display in the Auschwitz museum. Was he not able to recognize a blast 
furnace crematory, or are the crematories on display in the Auschwitz museum
just ordinary commercial home funeral ovens with all the technical limits,as 
described by him? If the crematories in the Auschwitz museum and other 
similiar museums are not the authentic ones, why are the public not informed 
of this?

Ole Kreiberg
--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 17 13:03:07 PDT 1995
Article: 11393 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MY PROBLEMS WITH THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 14:27:43 -0100
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In article <45lomf$pov@dns.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>>
>>  >>    You can never make something a crime which in it's nature is not a 
>crime. 
>>  >>  Everybody knows what a crime is, even if it is not written down in a 
>>  >law-book. 
>>  >>
>>  >>>>>
>>  >   That's funny.  In the city where I live the following activities are crimes 
>which 
>>  >may get you fined or put in jail:
>>  >
>>  >    1.   Passing a stopped school bus. (In fact the bus driver can make the 
>>  >arrest)
>>  >
>>  >    2..  Giving your 18 year old son a glass of beer.
>>  >
>>  >    3.   Failing to have a license for your dog.
>>  >
>>  >     4.  Shooting or poisoning a bald eagle.
>>  >
>>  >     5.  Keeping a goat in your back yard.
>>  >
>>  >     6.  Putting uphostered furniture on your porch.
>>  >
>>  >    These are all criminal offenses.  Please tell me what makes these 
>activities 
>>  >inherently criminal.
>>  >
>>  >      --YFE
>>  
>>    Have of violations of these acts anything to do with expressing views, 
>>  which are unfavourable to the rulers of your country or certain influential 
>>  ethnic minorities.
>>  
>>  Ole Kreiberg
>>  
>>>>>
>   Like most deniers you are adept at changing the subject.  You made a general 
>statement about criminal activity with no reference to freedom of speech.  I 
>responed to that general statement.  If you don't like the fact that your statement 
>was nonsense I suggest that the problem lies with you.
>
>    --YFE

  Yaeh, I can understanding that quibblings about law is what you are really
good at, and that this is also the way you are earning your living.
  However I doubt that nobody will ever regard somebody, who e.g. get caught 
in having a goat in his backyard, a criminal. Keeping a goat in your backyard 
may be a violation of some regulations or codes but not a violation of the 
criminal code. However I have lived in USA myself, and I know how inflexible 
and rigid such petty rules are enforced and administered there.
  In Denmark such violations will not be added to your record except perhaps
deliberately shooting or poisening preserved animals. Else by criminal acts
are understood things as theft, robbery, murder, fraud, rape and so on, and   
certainly not keeping uphostering furniture on your porch. 
  However even these minor codes and regulations may seem to make sense to 
most people. Concerning criminal acts such as stealing etc even criminals 
themselves understand that such acts are bad. Just try to see  how 
criminals act if other criminals are stealing from them or raping their 
wives. Try to cheat money from the mafia and see what will happen. 

When it comes to political and religious ideas, things are different. I am 
sure that every German nazi honestly believed that the Jews were evil and 
harmful people who deserved to be deported, and that a much better Germany 
would result from their absence. I am also sure that the communists regarded 
all the persons they sent to prison-camps as evil people who wanted to 
counteract the development of the coming paradise of the working people. 
You cannot make political ideas criminal acts. You can only punish political 
acts and only if they are of criminal nature.

  After the second world war there were a judicial purge in Denmark. Only 
those Danes who had committed real criminal acts such as killing their own 
country-men and in other ways served the enemy in a way harmful to their 
country (treason), were regarded as criminals. Even the so-called Freedom 
Council of the resistance declared that being a nazi or having other 
dissident views and symphaties alone should not be punishable - all in 
accordance to the word and the spirit of the constitution. In a constitional 
democracy you can never make ideas and opinions criminal acts. In the USA 
and in Denmark you have the right to say that Adolph Hitler was great and 
the holocaust never happened. Section 77 in the Danish constitution reads 
that everyone has the right to express his views and ideas in writing and in 
speech and that no censorship or other similiar *preventive measures* can 
never be introduced. (However you can still be made responsible for your 
utterances before a court ( e.g. in case of libel or slander). 

Ole Kreiberg


    
--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 17 13:03:08 PDT 1995
Article: 11394 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The reason I defend the nazis
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 1995 16:47:42 -0100
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In article , Staffan Friberg wrote:
>
>> >Yes, I understand why it would be brought up when discussing modern
>> >crematoria but it still has no relevance to Auschwitz, has it?
>
>> Why are you not able to understand that the modern crematory are much
>> quicker and efficient than the ones in Auschwitz? 
>
>Because it is not true, that's why.
>
>Can you finally understand what we have been telling you for several weeks
>now. The assumption you base your beliefs on isn't correct. It's wrong.
>
>Do you understand? It's wrong. Det är fel. Es ist falsch. Am I getting
>through?

I think you have become a little frenzied now. Haven't you.
>
>Just because you can't be bothered to check with the patent submitted by Topf
>und Söhne does neither mean that it doesn't exist nor that it's wrong.

Has it ever been implemented in real life? Please tell me which of the many
crematories preserved in the many concentration-camps museums were able to 
operate as described in the patent. Have e.g. Daniel Keren or John Morris 
ever been to any of the camp-museums to inspect the crematories. Why to 
crematory experts such as Ivan Lagace claim that the crematories in the
Auschwitz museum are common crematories? Please point out just a single 
crematory which is able function as a blast furnace as claimed by John
Morris.

Ole Kreiberg
--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Oct 20 10:39:43 PDT 1995
Article: 11561 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi Trash
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 1995 21:02:05 -0100
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In article <8B3139F.081100B84B.uuout@almac.co.uk>, ANGUS MCLELLAN wrote:
>Only a most peculiar individual could point to the atrocities committed 
>by the Einsatzgruppen and see them as vindicating his or her beliefs, 
>yet Mr Kreiberg does so. His family have my deepest sympathies for the 
>embarrassment and grief he must cause them.
>
>Angus M. McLellan

  Do not be ridiculous my family could not care less of what I am writing 
about events 50 years ago. I was not even born that time. Why should they 
feel any grief? They are not Jews or Germans. However they do 
sometimes find it a little silly that I am wasting so much time on something 
in there view so indifferent as whether or not the holocaust happened. 
The worst thing by being a revisionist in Denmark is that only few people 
are really interested in this subject. I think that many people here find 
the revisionist views a little bit weird and excentric - that is all. 

  When the 50 anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz was celebrated in
Poland some Danish Jews blamed the Danish Royal Family for not sending any
representatives down there. The reason for this was according to a spokesman 
for the Royal Court that there were no Danish citizens in Auschwitz neither 
as victims or executioners. Remember that almost all the Danish Jews fled to 
Sweden. Remember Denmark was a neutral country before and officially also
during the war. Only 2 per cent of the population voted for the Danish nazi-
party in the elections in 1939 and 1943 and only 2 per cent of the population
had any affiliation with the resistance. The remaining 96 per cent wished to 
have as little as possible to do with that war - just as people in Sweden and 
Switzerland. 

  Therefore I have really enjoyed writing here on alt.revisionism. For the  
first time I have got some real challenge. Here I find people who really
bother to contradict me. 


Ole Kreiberg
  


--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Oct 20 10:39:44 PDT 1995
Article: 11633 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:12:59 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References:  <45sm0m$2j5@nimitz.fibr.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <45sm0m$2j5@nimitz.fibr.net>, hmazal@txdirect.net wrote:
>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>[Text deleted]
>
>>  
>> Then she bought a micro wave  oven and tried to do the same in
>> this with the result that the cat exploded.
>
>>  I am of course fully aware the differences between the way a micro oven  
>>  and an ordinary oven functions.
>
>If. Mr. Kreiberg is 'aware' of the differences between a crematory oven
>(which heats from the outside in) and a microwave oven (which heats
>from the inside outward), why does he attempt to compare one with 
>another?   Corpses don't  'explode' when submitted to high heat, otherwise
>every funeral pyre in India would spread bits of bodies all over the 
>place.
>
>
>Join This Usenet Newsgroup For Mr. Baron's Revelations on October 22!
>
>Harry W. Mazal OBE
>
  It does however prove the possibility that under certain circumstances
a body may be capable of exploding, if exposed to sudden enourmous heat. 
Remember that the type of crematory in the concentration-camps worked by 
first drying the body out (around 60 per cent of the body contains of water) 
whereafter the remnants would burst into fire. The modern crematory as well 
as the Indian pyre let the flames hit the body directly with the result that 
parts of the body begin to burn before the whole body is dried out. 

  I am not staing that I necessarily agree with Ivan Lagace on this point. I 
am just suggesting the possibilty that he could be right. 

Ole Kreiberg

--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Oct 20 10:39:45 PDT 1995
Article: 11634 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McKinstry's Silence
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:51:12 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <45hu7p$e1e@grivel.une.edu.au> <45i7gu$kk5@grivel.une.edu.au> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:6712 alt.revisionism:11634

In article , Jeanne Kowalewski wrote:
>In article <45i7gu$kk5@grivel.une.edu.au>, ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor)
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>*  So, does anybody have information about McKinstry's silence?
>*  Is it, as it is difficult to avoid presuming, a case of
>*  disappearing rather than facing the music and trying to avoid
>*  the public disgrace that sent Brother Johnson packing, or 
>*  does the Missing Link in the Chain of Evolution have some
>*  problem which prevents him from responding?
>*  

Just because somebody is leaving this newsgroup, I do not think there is any 
reason for the anti-revisionist to triumph. Maybe McKinsry had said 
everything he wanted, and had thus finished his task. I myself will leave 
this newsgroup, when I think that I have said all there is to say. I am not 
going to participate in endless polemics and quibblings. 

Ole Kreiberg
--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Oct 20 10:39:45 PDT 1995
Article: 11787 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionazis Refuse to Comment on 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:06:21 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
>Do you believe that a corpse inserted into a hot cremation furnace
>will explode, with force strong enough so as to damage something
>as sturdy as the furnace?
> 
  The problem here is that there is not a true expert in cremation in this
newsgroup. This is the problem. I think that this question can only be 
answered by experts. However I still wonder why Ivan Lagace did not become
the laughing-stock among his colleges and real experts, if he his allegations  
were that improbable. Have any one ever heard his allegation being 
contradicted by experts and colleagues?

Ole Kreiberg
--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Fri Oct 20 11:12:02 PDT 1995
Article: 6712 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McKinstry's Silence
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:51:12 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <45hu7p$e1e@grivel.une.edu.au> <45i7gu$kk5@grivel.une.edu.au> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:6712 alt.revisionism:11634

In article , Jeanne Kowalewski wrote:
>In article <45i7gu$kk5@grivel.une.edu.au>, ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor)
>wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>*  So, does anybody have information about McKinstry's silence?
>*  Is it, as it is difficult to avoid presuming, a case of
>*  disappearing rather than facing the music and trying to avoid
>*  the public disgrace that sent Brother Johnson packing, or 
>*  does the Missing Link in the Chain of Evolution have some
>*  problem which prevents him from responding?
>*  

Just because somebody is leaving this newsgroup, I do not think there is any 
reason for the anti-revisionist to triumph. Maybe McKinsry had said 
everything he wanted, and had thus finished his task. I myself will leave 
this newsgroup, when I think that I have said all there is to say. I am not 
going to participate in endless polemics and quibblings. 

Ole Kreiberg
--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 22 11:51:27 PDT 1995
Article: 11985 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 21:35:32 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 43
Message-ID: 
References:  <45kteq$hp8@nimitz.fibr.net>  <4627e4$cge@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <4627e4$cge@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, John Morris wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:
>
>
>
>My expert said that otherwise "exploding bodies" did not pose a
>problem for modern crematory operators. He had never heard of any
>crematory operator experiencing such a problem. Presumably, my man is
>up on the latest technical developments through trade publications and
>bulletins from the standards council governing his profession.
>Although he agreed with my speculation that pressure could develop
>inside the abdominal cavity so that it "exploded" upon release, he
>wanted to know how anyone would know that such an explosion had
>occurred since the noise of the fans and burners would drown out any
>such minor "explosion."
>
>BTW, he preheats his retort before inserting the body. The body may be
>in as light a container as a cardboard box which, at 850 deg C,
>ignites instantaneously.
>
>It seems to me that the objection that a body might explode so
>violently as to damage the retort is not a tenable objection to the
>idea of mass cremation. Nevertheless, I would ask Mr. Kreiberg to
>explain why, if he "found it too weird" an idea, he bothered to raise
>the objection at all. The whole question now seems to have been a
>waste of time.

 I did so, because Ivan Lagace did so according to Ernst Zundel. 
>
>More on my interview with my expert to follow.

It was an excellent idea to call a real expert. You should follow this up
by calling Ivan Lagace and telling him about this discussion on the internet 
about his testimony in the Zundel-case. He could then explain further. Maybe 
Zundel did not understood everything, he was talking about and have misquoted
him. 

Ole Kreiberg
--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Sun Oct 22 11:51:28 PDT 1995
Article: 11986 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: MY PROBLEMS WITH THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 1995 22:00:49 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
References:  <45lomf$pov@dns.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <45lomf$pov@dns.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>>
>>  >>    You can never make something a crime which in it's nature is not a 
>crime. 
>>  >>  Everybody knows what a crime is, even if it is not written down in a 
>>  >law-book. 
>>  >>
>>  >>>>>
>>  >   That's funny.  In the city where I live the following activities are crimes 
>which 
>>  >may get you fined or put in jail:
>>  >
>>  >    1.   Passing a stopped school bus. (In fact the bus driver can make the 
>>  >arrest)
>>  >
>>  >    2..  Giving your 18 year old son a glass of beer.
>>  >
>>  >    3.   Failing to have a license for your dog.
>>  >
>>  >     4.  Shooting or poisoning a bald eagle.
>>  >
>>  >     5.  Keeping a goat in your back yard.
>>  >
>>  >     6.  Putting uphostered furniture on your porch.
>>  >
>>  >    These are all criminal offenses.  Please tell me what makes these 
>activities 
>>  >inherently criminal.
>>  >
>>  >      --YFE

  It is not easy for me to answer this question, because only one of the 
above-mentioned situations would be a criminel offense in Denmark, namely 
killing preserved animals. If I told in Denmark that you in the USA could go
to jail for putting uphostered furniture on your porch, nobody would   
believe me. 
  Killing preserved animals is of course criminal in nature the same way 
as poaching or destroying public property. The bald eagle is as far as I know 
a national symbol of the USA, so therefore the people of that country may  
regard the preserverance of this bird as particular important.
 
Ole Kreiberg

--
                                                                                    
                                                                                   
                                                                                   
                                                                                   


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 24 08:14:29 PDT 1995
Article: 12320 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 19:42:31 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
References:  <465htm$e09@dns.enter.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <465htm$e09@dns.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>>
>>    I am not staing that I necessarily agree with Ivan Lagace on this point. I 
>>  am just suggesting the possibilty that he could be right. 
>>  
>>>>>
>   While you are considering the matter you might tell us why the operators of the 
>crematoria in the Nazi death camps would *care* whether a body exploded or 
>not?
>
>    --YFE

Because as Ivan Lagace has stated, that an explosion might destroy the oven. 
The ovens according to Ivan Lagace were not built to endure this treatment. 
By the way furthermore he stated that they were built only to handle one body 
at a time.

Ole Kreiberg
--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 24 08:14:30 PDT 1995
Article: 12321 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 21:27:00 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References:  <45kteq$hp8@nimitz.fibr.net>  
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>[..] 
>
># and corpses were burnt in an inferno in pits while buckets of 
># human fat were pulled up from the bottom of the pits. 
>
>But it was posted here, many times, that the seething fat was 
>channeled out of the ditches, with small canals, and pulled out
>from them, not from the bottom of the pit. I see no reason not
>to believe this; obviously, there's nothing "impossible" here,
>and it may well have helped the burning process. It's a gory
>and disgusting thing, but it may have worked. And, after all, 
>it was Auschwitz.

  I has still not been explained, how this seething fat avoided to burst
into flames on it's way down to these canals. Remember the bodies were
supposed to burn in an inferno. In the bottom there was supposed to be 
burning logs, and fuel such as methanol was added. How could the fat ever 
reach these canals safe? 

>
>
>Kreiberg evades the question. All of Legace's argument is based on
>this "exploding corpses" thing. Does Kreiberg accept it, or not? The
>question is also addressed to the other revisionazis here.
>
  This is not true. It still takes around two hours to cremate a body
with this type of crematory. (John Morris claims that special
blast furnace ovens were constructed for the purpose. However he has still
not been able to point out exactly which ones of the many preserved 
crematories from the concentration camps are of that type. Strange enough 
Ivan Lagace did not notice any crematories of this type. How come?) 

Ole Kreiberg

--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Oct 25 22:10:42 PDT 1995
Article: 12617 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!cph-1.news.DK.net!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 16:41:50 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References:     
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>
>Dig a little pit, put some logs at the bottom, dig some 
>little canals leading from it, start a fire, and start 
>pouring seething fat into the pit. Will it flow into the canals? 
>What do you think, Kreiberg? Or maybe you claim it will vaporize, 
>or "explode" like the corpses in crazy Legace's furnace, or
>maybe the whole experiment is impossible, because "revisionists"
>tell us that cyanide gas forms "pockets" in the air, so
>maybe Oxygen does this as well, and we cannot start any
>fire because these pockets would "explode"? 
>
  I may not make my point clear enough, or you will deliberately not 
understand it. How could the fat ever reach these canals safe without 
bursting into fire on the way? When the bodies are already burning, fat 
sifting out would immediately burst into fire. Even if some of it had the  
chance to flow toward the bottom, it would still have the problem with the
burning fuel and logs in the bottom, as you have described. How could it 
ever avoid to blend with the burning fuel or hit the burning logs. Please
describe this to me.

Ole Kreiberg


--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Oct 25 22:10:43 PDT 1995
Article: 12644 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!cph-1.news.DK.net!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 21:32:37 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5ihZmOev146H065yn@login.dknet.dk>
References:  <465htm$e09@dns.enter.net>  <46jora$ksr@access5.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <46jora$ksr@access5.digex.net>, Michael P. Stein wrote:
>In article ,
>Ole Kreiberg  wrote:
>>>>    I am not saying that I necessarily agree with Ivan Lagace on this 
>>>>  point. I am just suggesting the possibilty that he could be right. 
>>>>  
>>>   While you are considering the matter you might tell us why the operators 
>>>  of the crematoria in the Nazi death camps would *care* whether a body 
>>>  exploded or not?
>>>
>>Because as Ivan Lagace has stated, that an explosion might destroy the oven. 
>>The ovens according to Ivan Lagace were not built to endure this treatment. 
>
>    Excuse me, Mr. Kreiberg, but something has been troubling me about
>this.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't your initial post on the
>subject, describing the information you got from your local crematorium,
>say that the oven is preheated before the coffin is inserted? 
>
>    Now, if the oven is preheated, then it would seem to me the body is 
>just as likely to explode, is it not?  All that matters is the 
>temperature - it doesn't matter if the temperature got to 750 degrees or 
>whatever by preheating or by failure to cool down after the first 
>burning.  Temperature is temperature.
>
>    Am I missing something here?

 A modern crematory works differently from the type in use in the 
forties. In the latter all the body fluid is dried out, before the corpse 
itself begins to burn. How the modern crematory works has been described 
by John Morris. The best thing to do in order to have this matter 
straightened out, is to let Ivan Lagace explain this himself. Let him write 
his explanation down and have a copy send to both e.g. Greg Raven and John 
Morris, who can then post it here.  
 

Ole Kreiberg
--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 


From olk@login.dknet.dk Wed Oct 25 22:10:44 PDT 1995
Article: 12645 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!cph-1.news.DK.net!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionazis Refuse to Comment on 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 1995 22:10:04 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 17
Message-ID: 
References:   <46ahkd$h6a@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article <46ahkd$h6a@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, John Morris wrote:
>
>It seems to me that the objection that a body might explode so
>violently as to damage the retort is not a tenable objection to the
>idea of mass cremation. Nevertheless, I would ask Mr. Kreiberg to
>explain why, if he "found it too weird" an idea, he bothered to raise
>the objection at all. The whole question now seems to have been a
>waste of time.
 
Simply because the crematory technology was different in the forties. Maybe
one has learned how to overcome the problems in the modern type. Again 
I have this information from Ivan Lagace as qouted by Ernst Zuendel. 

Ole Kreiberg

--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 30 15:48:36 PST 1995
Article: 12911 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!news99.sunet.se!news.uni-c.dk!dkuug!cph-1.news.DK.net!dknet!usenet
From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionazis Refuse to Comment on 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 21:45:17 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 48
Message-ID: 
References:   
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article , Staffan Friberg wrote:
>
>In article 
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>[About Ivan Lagace.]
>
>Mr. Kreiberg, I'm just using this post of yours to get your attention, I do
>not for the moment wish to enter this discussion between you and Dr. Keren.
>
>However, the following reply was posted as a response to an article of yours
>a couple of weeks ago. I suppose it didn't reach your site, such things
>happen now and then.
>
>Anyway, I'd appreciate your comments on this:
>
>** Begin included article**
>
>Path: staff
>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>From: staff@rabbit.augs.se (Staffan Friberg)
>Subject: Re: The reason I defend the nazis
>References:  
>X-NewsSoftware: GRn 2.1 Feb 19, 1994
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Message-Id: 
>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 95 14:19:05 CET
>Organization: Amiga User Group - Sweden
>
>
>In article 
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
>> In article , Staffan Friberg wrote:
>
>> >So? Now it suddenly is possible to have cremated the bodies in Auschwitz? I
>> >assume that since you have agreed that it is possible your original claim
>> >that it was a technical impossibility is going to be dropped?

 I have already anwered that. Try to look one more time for it, before I 
repost it. 

Ole Kreiberg

--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 30 15:48:38 PST 1995
Article: 12912 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 21:49:39 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <38MamOev1m$G065yn@login.dknet.dk>
References:     
NNTP-Posting-Host: login.dknet.dk

In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>
># How could the fat ever reach these canals safe without 
># bursting into fire on the way? 
>
>At what temperature does fat "burst into fire"? Let's start
>with that.
>
>I made the comparison to lava because it, too, is "burning"
>and seething, yet it flows very well.

  What if it hits the burning logs in bottom, described by you? How can it
avoid that?

            
Ole Kreiberg
--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 


From olk@login.dknet.dk Mon Oct 30 15:48:39 PST 1995
Article: 13053 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 22:04:58 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
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References:  <46he8n$f0c@dns.enter.net>
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In article <46he8n$f0c@dns.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote:
>>   olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>>
>>  Because as Ivan Lagace has stated, that an explosion might destroy the 
>oven. 
>>  The ovens according to Ivan Lagace were not built to endure this treatment. 
>>  By the way furthermore he stated that they were built only to handle one body 
>>  at a time.
>>  
>> 
>>>>>
>   Your explanation is that exploding flesh and bone are going to destroy bricks 
>and iron?   

  And explosion creates a blast wave. What may be the effect of a blast wave
in a narrow oven?

Ole Kreiberg
--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 


From olk@login.dknet.dk Tue Oct 31 09:00:20 PST 1995
Article: 13270 of alt.revisionism
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From: olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kreiberg's 'Exploding Corpses'
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 21:44:56 -0100
Organization: DKnet / EUnet Denmark - Login Tjenesten
Lines: 24
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References:       <46pdl6$69i@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>
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In article <46pdl6$69i@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca>, John Morris wrote:
>
>To draw a gruesome analogy, do you have barbeques in Denmark? If not,
>try to imagine meat cooking over a charcoal brazier. Fat drips down
>from the meat onto the charcoal. It catches fire, but not instantly.
>Some of it burns, while some of it smolders before burning. Imagine
>putting lots and lots of meat on the brazier. Some of the meat is
>burning. Some of the meat is completely carbonized. Some of the meat
>is dripping fat. Some of the fat is burning, but  some of it is
>smoldering. Now there is so much meat and so much fat dripping that
>some of the fat flows away before it can catch fire.

  I think it makes a big difference, whether you are grilling and roasting 
meat, or you are burning it. Obviously burning takes place at a much higher 
temperature. You cannot compare these two things like that. When you are 
grilling, you are not letting flames or glowing charcoal touch the meat. 
The temperature around the meat may be high enough to make the fat flow 
>from  the meat but still too low to ignite it.

Ole Kreiberg


--
Truth alone triumphs. - Mundaka Upanisad 



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