The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/k/kleinsorg.horst.o/1996/kleinsorg.0396

#: 463124 S14/Coffee Shop
 0  01-Mar-96  17:11:15
Sb: The Holocaust - NOT!
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: George Minde 70550,623 (X)
Replies:   0


>>>> By the way, what is your opinion of the bombings of Rotterdam and Coventry? Since you seem to be concerned about allied bombing? (And for goodness sake, why do you leave out Hamburg if that is your concern?) Not that any of this has to do with the lies you are peddling about the Holocaust.<<<<

Now, dear George, here I have to jump in. What are you trying to prove now? Another twist of historical facts?
As I have explained to you and others before in this forum, I am limited  to reply only from memory, since my library is still in storage until my new house is finished.  Anyone interested in the truth can easily find relevant literature in any good library.

As a former Luftwaffe Pilot myself  I  was always interested specifically  in the Air War over Europe.
Let me set the record straight here:
In late 1939, I believe it was in October, the Royal Air Force flew  four bombing raids against Germany. Hamburg, Emden and Berlin. No  military targets were hit  and only civilians were killed. Not a single german bomb had fallen on England yet!  Early 1940 there were several more bombing Raids against german cities.
The german Foreign Office, in three separate diplomatic notes to England protested and warned of retaliation, if this open city bombing would not stop.
(by the way, Hitler still tried to get an arrangement with the Brits at that time.).
When another RAFAir Raid took place, he ordered the Luftwaffe to respond with all its force and Coventry was chosen. Thereafter Hitler made his famous statement: " Wenn der Englaender nicht 
aufhoert unsere Staedte zu bombadieren, werden wir England  coventrieren".
("If the english don't stop to bomb our cities, we will "coventry" England")
Immediately after the german  Raid on Coventry, the RAF stopped bombing german Cities for a while and tried to get to more military targets.
Please read:  Kriegstagebuch der Luftwaffe Vol.1 1939, Vol 2. 1940.
also: Warlog of the RAF.
This histrorical fact has never been questioned. In my many conversations with former RAF officers,
they all agreed with this.
As to Rotterdam: This was a raid aimed at the port facilities. The damage done to the city, was what is now called "colateral" damage,  the same what happend  in Iraq (Baghdad) during Desert Storm.
There was no order to any of the Stuka-Wings to bomb the city of Rotterdam itself.

#: 463125 S14/Coffee Shop
 0  01-Mar-96  17:12:16
Sb: #The Holocaust - NOT!
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Andrew George Stone 100304,1013 (X)
Replies:   2


>>>In terms of individual guilt there is no difference between killing 5 or 5 million. In terms of the guilt of society as a whole there is a considerable difference. In the killing of 5,000,000 people a large number of people, a considerable section of society, will be involved. To kill 5 only one.

To an extent you are right. However there s one point what bothers me and always will. As I have posted before, the germans did not invent bureaucracy, they just perfected it. If in these KZ.s records were kept of many sets of clothes were handed out to the inmates, how many matresses ect.,
deathbooks were kept of inmates who died , and no records were kept on the people who were delivered to these installations?  Somewhere these records are available, for that I would bet my bottom dollar.
Why was it that in the 50's and 60's  the germans could prove almost anyone wrong or right when claims for compensations were made.?

>>>>When we talk about Allied war crimes we are talking about individual's or small groups of individual's, not a large semi-industrial organization.<<<<

For the individual victim it does not make a dime of difference. The Potsdam Agreement betwen the four victors indirectly sanctioned the murder of millions of germans after the war. This was a signed document, not a verbal  order supposingly wispered in somebody elses ear since no document ordering the extermination of the jews was ever produced to this day by anyone.

There is however one point, which should never be overlooked by anyone regardless if Holocauster or Revisionist.:   If the real truth came out about he so called Holocaust, it would lose its power to be used as an ax to extort the US  and german taxpayer.  In its relation to the general carnage of that time it would be just another unfortunate event.

#: 463157 S14/Coffee Shop
 0  01-Mar-96  18:19:10
Sb: #463071-#Jews and the Media
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Mike Curtis 76711,3360 (X)
Replies:   2

>>>> It was the _evidence_, primarily from Soviet interrogation
 records, which freed Demjanjuk.
 I assume, then, that Mr. Kleinsorg accepts this type of Soviet evidence as genuine?<<<

>>>> Yup. The evidence used in Israel, by Mr. Kleinsorg's own
 admission (it freed Mr. Demjanjuk), was useful, accurate, and valid. That's the logical - the only - conclusion to be drawn.<<<,

Very seldom in my life, if ever,  have I seen anybody trying to twist  and confuse other people as you do. I will not fall for this and certainly not for your relentless pushing of the holocaust story.

Yes, it was _precisely_ the Soviet files and documents which freed Mr. Demjanuk in his Trial in Israel because his very able Defense Lawyer  was able to prove that the _soviet_  documents on which the indictment was based and which the  officially sanctioned hate unit of the Justice Department called OSI, based his deportation to Israel were  soviet  _forgeries_!!!!!
With technology only developed over the last 10 years or so it was possible to unmask and expose these forgeries. 
This is why Mr. Demjanuk was not convicted and not what you try to explain that the  soviet documents were genuine.
If nothing else, this clearly shows your agenda. Before your above posting I was not quite sure about you but now I am ceratin that all your arguments and your way of  arguing are disingenuous.
You may be able to fool a few members of this forum with your agenda but not this one!

#: 463183 S14/Coffee Shop
 0  01-Mar-96  19:57:02
Sb: #Allied Crimes, never
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511 (X)
Replies:   2


>>>>Any modern war of nations is a war of peoples.  That is the deffinition of total war.  Since the German people saw fit to allow the Nazis to lead them in the aggressions they commited on other countries and populaces, they must be held accountable for a war they allowed to propagate.<<<<

Finally we are getting somewhere in this dicusssion.

 After JUDEA declared war on Germany (see London Daily Express  Headline March 24-1933)
"Judea declares War on Germany"
"Jews of all the World unite!"

Turn your above statement to read:  " Since the jewish people saw fit to allow their leaders to lead them in the aggression against a sovereign nation of Germany, they must be held accountable for the war they declared"  . Get my drift?

>>>>  I do not mean that all are to blame for the holocaust, but as members of Germany during the war, all are included under the title "enemy".  If the people of Germany considered themselves apart and separate from the Nazis, then they should have simply refused to foolow their lead into fomenting conflict.<<<

Read your above statement the following way:

" I do not mean that all  Jews are to blame for the declaration of war, but as members of the jewish race, religion and nation, all are included under the title "enemy". If the Jews of Germany considered themselves separate from their leaders, then they should have simply refused to follow their lead
and denounce them".

Get my drift again.

By the way, in all fairness some  Jews in Germany spoke out against the above declaration of war.
The  "Bund national-sozialistischer Juden" was heavily opposed to this.

>>>>As to a hatred by Jews towards the German people.  Prior to 1933, none existed.  Germany had a large jewish population that was both loyal and contributed far more then its share to both the culture and economy of Germany. <<<<

I would accept this statement  if it would read: " As to a hatred by  *german*  Jews towards the German  people........." .

The Nazis negotiated with jewish organization for the establishment of their homeland Israel. Germany gave to the Zionist Organizations  100 Million  Reichsmark  and had more than 20 training centers in Germany to train german Jews willing to emigrate to Palestine. Jewish teachers were brought in from Palestine to teach the language, living conditions etc. to those people. These centers were in operation until  WW II broke out.
Guess who was in charge  of this program and visited Palestine many times during this period to see if progress was made in construction etc.:  ADOLF EICHMANN.

Anyway, Germany paid before and paid afterwards. They got it both ways.


  Any hatred that later developes by Jews for Germans was earned by those Germans through the acts of atrocities commited by the Nazis, the delegated leaders of the German population.

#: 463481 S14/Coffee Shop
    02-Mar-96  15:34:27
Sb: #Allied Crimes? Never!
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Cliff G. Swiger 76053,707 (X)
Replies:   2

>>>>HK>>That forum is filthy and dominated with the same breed as here.<<
AN>>Now what breed might you be referring to?  If you mean what I think you do, then your comments are violations of German law.<<
>>>....Who gives a hoot. Horst lives in America not Deutschland. I think I know what you're accusing Horst of implying so I'll say it:<<<<<

Not so fast, Cliff.   The german "Thought Police" operates not only in Germany but also here in the USA. People may not be aware of this. Even this Forum is  screened by them.  I have had repeatedly received messages threatening retaliation from Germany regarding certain Postings I have made here. See the appearance of Joe Wein in this Forum about two weeks ago. So much for freedom of expression.

#: 463482 S14/Coffee Shop
    02-Mar-96  15:35:05
Sb: #Allied Crimes, never
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Avner Bezborodko 70671,3511 (X)
Replies:   1

>>>>Please explain to me the existence of the nation of Judea.  I do not see it on any map of the period, nor see reference to it's existence in any texts. On your planet did such a country exist at this time?<<<<<<

See:  Moses Hess , " Rome and Jerusalem"  1862:
   " The Jews are something more than mere followers of a religion, namely, they are a race, a      brotherhood, a nation"   Pg 71;

  " Every Jew is whether he likes it or not, solidly united with the entire nation."  Pg 163;

  " Jewish religion is, above all, jewish patriotism."  Pg 61;

See:  Rabbi Morris Joseph,  "Israel a Nation";
    " Israel is assuredly a great nation...... Israel is recognized as a nation by those who see it;
      no one could possibly mistake it for a sect. To deny jewish nationality you must deny the 
      existence of the Jew."

See: Leon Simon,  "Studies of Jewish Nationalism",  sub.Religion and Nationalism;
         " Judaism has no message of salvation for the individual soul, as Christianity has; all its
           ideas are bound up with the existence of the jewish nation." Pg 20.

Louis D. Brandeis, Justice of the US Supreme Court:
      " Let us all recognize that we Jews are a distinct nationality of which ervery Jew, whatever
        his country, his station, or shade in belief, is necessarily a member".

Rgds.  Horst

#: 463483 S14/Coffee Shop
    02-Mar-96  15:35:06
Sb: #Allied Crimes, never
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Alex Krislov 76703,243 (X)
Replies:   2

>>>>>The Jewish "declaration"  was in _response_ to a Nazi-declared boycott of Jewish goods, shops and tradesmen within Germany.  The declaration you're talking about was a counter-boycott.
 In other words, if a boycott is "war" then it was the Nazis who declared war. Which of course is what they did. And on their own people!
 In response to the responding boycott, the Nazis claimed the Jews were trying to destroy Germany.  A lie which, as we see, is still put forth by their apologists today.  How very sad.<<<<

Well, well, well, here we go again! The NAZI boycott of jewish goods, shops etc in Germany was in response to the decision by international jewish bankers to stop all credits to Germany and Germany's decision not to pay any reparations from WW I to these banker as was mandated by the Versailles Treaty.
The old story: what comes first the chicken or the egg!  Anyway you want it!

#: 463502 S14/Coffee Shop
    02-Mar-96  16:03:23
Sb: #Hitler Germany-Innocent
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Joe Wein 100142,3715 (X)
Replies:   1

>>>>And before that Horst Kleinsorg was kicked out of DER SPIEGEL, a German forum, for violating forum rules. Manfred Koch has been locked out that forum since last summer.<<<

Please reveal your true colors! Don't try to hide. The german Internet Gestapo seems to be everywhere these days.
I was   _not_ kicked out of the  SPIEGEL Forum and am not kicked out as of this moment. The sysop only asked me not to post anymore since other  red (PDS, Communists) and pinky (left wing) members protested my postings and got rude and abusive, since they were unable to cope with my postings with factual arguments. You know very well the german laws  prohibiting free expression, thought and information if it is not in conformance with german political correctness today. So, don't come here and try to impose this also on America, the only bastion of freedom left.
Just remember the threads you made against me in the SPIEGEL FORUM.  But you can bank your bottom Pfennig, I will not forget it either.

#: 463550 S14/Coffee Shop
    02-Mar-96  19:11:16
Sb: #Allied Crimes? Never!
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Mike Curtis 76711,3360 (X)
Replies:   1


>>>>> Btw, where's all this documentation you were going to present.<<<<

>>> In fact, I see folks bending over backwards to allow your trash to be posted here.<<<

I really appreciate that you are such a tue "Gentleman".
Perhaps  _ your_  posted trash does not deserve any counter- documentation on my part.

#: 464625 S14/Coffee Shop
    05-Mar-96  15:27:06
Sb: #Allied Crimes? Never!
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Joe Wein 100142,3715
Replies:   1

>>>>"Kleinsorg hat eine letzte Aufforderung bekommen, dieses Forum zu verlassen." (Kleinsorg has received a final call to LEAVE this forum.) Mr. Booms whose subsequently severly critisized by several forum members for *waiting so long* with that action.<<<<

Is there any way that you could tell the truth for once? It appears, you don't know what truth is anymore.

You are forgiven.


#: 464626 S14/Coffee Shop
    05-Mar-96  15:27:10
Sb: #Allied Crimes? Never!
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Joe Wein 100142,3715
Replies:   1


As a final answer to your ridiculous statemens get this:

>>>>and see the sudden appearance of Cliff Swiger, Manfred Koch, William Spoor and yourself in this forum three weeks ago.<<<<
>>> It appears the three of you have been not regulars around here either. I can't see much that was relevant to military issues in these threads. How come the three of you suddenly all turned up in this forum at the same time? Maybe because no one bought your "arguments" in ISSUES and DERSPI?<<<<

It appears that you are not only paranoid, but you are missing something in your head. Before I entered this forum  I _____ never ever_____ heard of Koch, Swiger or Spoor.
I have   ____ never___   participated or placed any messages in ISSUES or any other forum except  SPIEGEL. Up to this moment I don't even know of an ISSUES forum, but thanks anyway for telling me.

As a former Luftwaffe Pilot, I was looking for company of allied Air Force Veterans  basically to shoot the beeze, not getting involved with your kind.

>>>> as long as you operate from outside Germany and use an foreign language forum. You'd be in a different situation if you were to say some of the things you've said here or in ISSUES in DERSPIE or GERLIN. I could tell by how you tried to be more careful about what you said there, compared to here. Not that it won you any visible support...<<<<<<

Again, you are full of BS. Having not participated in ISSUES or GERLINE (?) what  did I say there?  I was lured into the SPIEGEL Forum by one of your political brethren (Michael Deutz) after a ___private____ conversation
with him online which he then posted without my permission, denounced me to the sysop and assured me to report me to the german police!   When I came up with factual postings, you and your buddies had no argument but to yell Nazi, Neo-Nazi, Anti-Semite, Jew-Hater and other complimentary descriptions for myself.

>>>>>Accusing others as "Gestapo" members as you have is an ad hominem attack and insult, but I prefer to fight you guys with facts, not with legal paragraphs, because facts are more effective to help the spread of lies and distortions while hate speech laws can be abused by you to make yourselves look like martyrs<<<<

You would not know fact from fiction, lie from truth if you stumbled over it, fell on your face and had a blody nose.
There is a diference between a Gestapo  Member and being a member of the german "Internet-Gestapo". 
What ever you are missing in facts, you are perfect in "Wortklauberei".

>>>>. I think Mike Curtis, David Fuhrmann, George Minde, Forrest Johnson and many others have done an excellent job here. In the end you have shown yourself not as the "hobby historian" that you claimed to be in Der Spiegel, but as an ____unashamed Jew hater.______ (emphasis added. HK)

Another label again?  Perhaps you should get the  "Bundesverdienstkreuz am Band" for this.

This is the last time shall answer your smear.


#: 464627 S14/Coffee Shop
    05-Mar-96  15:27:13
Sb: #Hitler Germany-Innocent
Fm: HORST O. KLEINSORG 103512,2230
To: Juergen Langowski 100273,3352 (X)
Replies:   2

>>>>>Geez, of course. By calling someone a "LEFT-FASCIST" at least twice and saying "ihr spinnt" [you dummies] at least three times, you offered "factual arguments" that nobody could counter. What did you expect? We're all brain-washed, you know?<<<

I can not recall that you even participated in that discussion.  I described some members of the SPIEGEL FORUM as 'LINKS-FASCHISTEN", ex-member of the kommunist  SED, now called PDS because of their constant calls for my expulsion from the SPIEGEL Forum and denouncement to the german police (Michael Schmidt).  For you it looks good to take things out of context. Be ashamed of yourself.

>>>>You're not living in Germany, so maybe this explains why you don't know much about us. The game we're playing now is called "modern democracy", and free speech is part of it. If you think not - you said that several times -, prove it.<<<<

If this is  is "Modern Democracy" what you are playing in Germany now, show me what a  Dictatorship is like. 
Why then denounce me to the  political police if free speech is part of it? Have I said too much, when I pointed out that Germany needs a  First Ammendment like the US Constitution has?

>>>>You really must hate Germany a lot, to write such a diatribe against her. How come?<<<<

You are totally wrong. I love Germany, the Land of my ancestors more than anything else and I served it with honor.  What I don't like is people like yourself, constantly  "katzbuckeln" before anyone comming along and instilling guilt in the german people, its history, its leaders  and completely turning historical facts to suit their political agenda today.
Many  Germans lived outside Germany during the 3.Reich. Did they also hate Germany when they disagreed? 

Now lay back, sipp another Heineken and think about it.


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