The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/k/katz.harry/1998/katz.9806


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu Jun  4 12:45:01 EDT 1998
Article: 180159 of alt.revisionism
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Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:

	How many Jews are buried in Christian cemeteries?

John Morris wrote:

	Come to think of it, how many Catholics are buried in Protestant
	cemetaries, and v.v?

The real problem is that, like a dog with a bone, Mr. Tavish buried his
brains long ago for safe keeping.  The real question now is where?

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu Jun  4 12:45:01 EDT 1998
Article: 180161 of alt.revisionism
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Dieselzykl wrote:

	Without knowing any thing at all about him personally, I am
	nonetheless quite certain that he is simply telling a rather 
	common Jewish lie.

That is what is commonly known as prejudice!

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu Jun  4 12:45:01 EDT 1998
Article: 180163 of alt.revisionism
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Dieselzykl wrote:

	We hardly know each other...

Which did not prevent Mr. Dieselzykl from accusing Mr. Eideken of being
a liar!

	...and already you accuse me of running, of being a chicken, a 
	coward, a spineless jerk, a rabbit, gutless, and hiding behind 
	a woman's skirt.

He can dish it out, but he just can't take it!  The difference is that
Mr. Dieselzykl has written enough in his posts to reveal these character
flaws of his, whereas his character assasination of Mr. Eideken was,
by his own admission, based on nothing more than pure prejudice.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu Jun  4 12:45:02 EDT 1998
Article: 180164 of alt.revisionism
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Dieselzykl wrote:

	Just what do you mean when you say "there are powerful reasons 
	for postive intervention against Holocaust denial." It sure does
	sound as if you are a real bigot.

Mr. Berg admits he does not know a thing about Mr. Eideken, and then
proceeds to call him a liar!  Now, he has the chutzpah to call someone
else "a real bigot!"

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu Jun  4 12:45:02 EDT 1998
Article: 180165 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Subject: Debunks' "apology" on Talmud issue accepted
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Richard Schultz wrote:

	I am claiming that they took the passage you posted out of 
	context in a not very successful attempt to twist its meaning 
	(not very successful because anyone who reads what you posted 
	can see that pederasty is, according to the Talmud, 
	not permitted).

Debunks responds:

	I won't argue with you.  You could very well be correct.  
	I personally find it difficult to think otherwise, actually.  
	Rabbis are obligated to uphold Scripture, and scripture is quite
	clear concerning pederasty.

This is as close to an admission that he was wrong as Mr. Debunks
is likely to get, and I, for one, accept it without reservation.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu Jun  4 12:45:03 EDT 1998
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I wrote:
 
	Ignorance is bliss.  The whole wide world can see for themselves
	that Mr. Debunks is an ass, as well as a lying dog, even if he 
	himself cannot.

Mr. Debunks responds:

	I will tell you something:  that is a problem you people...

When did I turn into "my people?"  The first fallacy of racism is that
there are no individuals among any peoples but their own. 

	...have always had-you cannot leave well enough alone.  You are 
	your own worst enemies and always have been, and then when your 
	treachery rebounds against you,...

Exactly, what "treachery" am I being accused of?  The only thing that I
did was point out the lies in Mr. DeBunk's posts.  He is the one who
made an ass of himself by denying what he himself posted!

	...you all blame the other fellow and whine and cry and carry 
	on, saying WHY?!?  Why did this happen to ME?

On the contrary, every time a racist is shown up by a Jew, he "blames 
the other fellow and whines and cries and carries on," complaining
that the Jews are going too far, and the Jews are not letting well
enough alone!  As if the problem were not his own mandacity, but
getting caught at it by a Jew!

	Oy Gewalt!

Indeed!

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Thu Jun  4 12:45:03 EDT 1998
Article: 180169 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Debunks wrote:
> 
> >Subject: Debunks is no Talmudic scholar
> >From: Harry Katz 
> >Date: Thu, May 28, 1998 18:19 EDT
> >Message-id: <356DE25C.BD856@mci.com>
> >
Debunks wrote:

	Are you now claiming that rabbis are incapable of translating
	from Hebrew to English?  Go sell someone the Brooklyn Bridge....

I responded:

	Actually, it is Mr. Debunks who has been peddling public 
	property with his claim to have posted from a photocopy of the 
	Soncino Edition of the Talmud, as if he had personally delved 
	into it when he really was merely retyping anti-Semitic 
	propaganda.

	Hebrew is only used in the older sections, known as mishnas.  
	The bulk of the Talmud is the commentary on the mishnas and it 
	is not written in Hebrew at all.

	What is funny is Mr. Debunks trying to pass himself off as
	knowledgeable about the Talmud when he was not even curious 
	enough to know what language it was translated from.

Mr. DeBunk responds:

	...And regardless of which language the Talmud was originally 
	written in, we are discussing the Soncino edition in English.   

Actually, we finished with the passage long ago.  Everyone agreed it
was pulled out of context.

What we are discussing now is Mr. DeBunk's claim to be able to
interpret the Talmud, and every time he puts his foot into his own
mouth and proves that he really does not know how to interpret the
Talmud, he comes back with this same, stale argument: that we are
not discussing the passage itself.

Mr. DeBunks continues:

	And note how he avoided directly answering my points.

I answered Mr. DeBunk's "points" some time ago.  I see nothing new
in this most recent post to address.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Sun Jun 14 02:25:12 EDT 1998
Article: 182368 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Doc Tavish reprints:

	http://www.getnet.com/~byblos/bukmod.htm

	The Bukharan Jews Since 1948

	"The creation of the state of Israel in 1948 raised an outcry of
	protest among Muslims everywhere. The Jews of Uzbekistan 
	realized that, paradoxically, their only real source of 
	protection was the Soviet government--a government which had 
	conveniently "forgotten" early Jewish contributions to 
	Socialism/ Communism and repressed all Jewish religious 
	expression during the Stalinist years."
	                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What does he make of this?

	[The Jews were running the show before then though!

"Before then..."  That means that Mr. McTavish acknowledges that Jews 
were not "running the show" once Stalin came to power.  Yet, he still
holds Jews responsible for Stalin's campaign against the Ukraine!

	Notice what was said above- "the Soviet government--a government
	which had conveniently "forgotten" early Jewish contributions to 
	Socialism/Communism..." They didn't mention that the Jews had 
	suppressed the Christian Religion long before Stalin in 
	Bolshevik Russia! Tavish]

Mainly, because it is simply not true!  The "contributions" spoken of
above were in the form of organizing Jewish workers to participate in
the revolution and joining ranks with the vast majority of non-Jewish
Russian workers in support of the Mensheviks--the opposition to the
Bolsheviks.

All that Mr. McTavish has proved is that he has contradicted himself
regarding Jewish influence in the Stalinist regime.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Sun Jun 14 02:25:12 EDT 1998
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Venomous McTavish spews:

	Have any of you ever seen anything more prejudicial and bigoted 
	than the material above that speaks in the name of G-d? If this 
	was a white group speaking of blacks in this manner there would 
	be an outcry as such as never imagined!

If the very worst thing that Whites ever did to Blacks was to refuse to
buy eggs from them, I think that the outcry would be minimal.

	This is one group that is speaking this against all the rest of 
	mankind!!! Open your eyes and see!

As if "all the rest of mankind" is employed in selling eggs to Jews!

	Doc Tavish (A Voice Crying in the Wilderness)

Make that "whining" instead of "crying!"  I love the Biblical reference
coming from a man who boasts that he likes "young stuff!"

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Sun Jun 14 02:25:12 EDT 1998
Article: 182412 of alt.revisionism
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Debunks whines:

	All right, then.  You COULDN'T leave well enough alone could 
	you? Let's get into this deeper then:

	"But  a heathen (Gentile) chould not be allowed to perform
	circumcision on an Israelite, because he is liable to take his 
	life.  This is the opinion of R. Meier.  The Sages said:  A 
	heathen may circumcize an Israelite, so long as others are 
	standing by him, but not while he is on his own.  R. Meier,
	however, said,:  Not even when others are standing by him, for 
	he may find occasion to let the knife slip and so sterilise 
	him."

Mr. DeBunk's first mistake is to equate "heathen" with "Gentile."
First of all, the word "heathen" is an English translation of an Aramaic
word, and the exact meaning cannot be determined without knowing what
Aramaic word was employed.  In ordinary English usage, the two words
are not equivalent, Gentile referring to any non-Jew, and heathen
referring specifically to people who have never been exposed to
Christianity.  Without access to the original Aramaic, I would guess 
that the word "heathen" was used here because the original word implies
ignorance of God or Judaism.

Mr. DeBunk next asked:

	Well, whatif the "heathen" was a medical doctor?


First of all, modern medical science did not exist at the time of these
rabbinic discussions, so they could not have been intended to deal with
that question.  Secondly, there is no reason to equate a modern doctor
with a "heathen" as all doctors are well-educated and familiar with
Christian and Jewish concepts of God.  At best, a doctor could only
be an "infidel" which is someone who rejects Christianity.

A medical doctor may not perform a ritual circumcision because he would
want to sedate the baby first, which is strictly prohibited, and he
would also want to use some special medical device, which is also
prohibited.

But what is most telling is that Mr. DeBunk thinks there is something
inherently wrong with Jews being concerned about who cuts on their
generative organs, especially during a historic period in which people
of all nations and races were much less civilized and much more crude 
and cruel.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Sun Jun 14 21:22:40 EDT 1998
Article: 183203 of alt.revisionism
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Doc Tavish spews:

	Try convincing your leaders that their ancestors were wrong for
	assassinating the Czar and his entire family and going on the 
	most blood spilling spree of all time!

No Jewish leaders have any ancestors who "assassinated the Czar and his
entire family" or went on any "blood spilling spree!" and Mr. McTavish
has not, and cannot, prove otherwise.

	Again you get no sympathy from me.

What a surprise!  The man who spends all of his spare time distorting
historical documents to enflame anyone and everyone against the Jewish
people, has no sympathy for the suffering that he inflicts on us!

	If you had admitted that the info is true and felt remorse and
	admitted the wrongdoing then that would be an entirely different
	matter!

Indeed!  It would be admitting to a lie!

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Sun Jun 14 21:22:41 EDT 1998
Article: 183303 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Richard G. Phillips writes:

	I'll put in my own bit on that (What motivates deniers)

	(1) I am strongly of the opinion that the Holocaust never WOULD 
	have been challenged if the moans, wails, and propagandizing not
	been prolonged to the extent that they were. The Jewish psyche 
	is essentially masochistic; the Aryan psyche is not.

All of the publicity, books, magazine articles, and movies about the
Holocaust are the products of public fascination with the Holocaust
and public demand for these goods.  If the so-called "Aryan psyche"
wee not morbidly fascinated with the subject, the well of publicity
would dry up all by itself.

	The ordinary man has a certain capacity to empathize with moans, 
	wails, and lamentations but that capacity has its limits and 
	those limits were passed long ago. Prolonged beyond that point, 
	they will thenceforth evoke first indifference, followed by 
	irritation, followed by contempt.

I am extremely suspicious of anyone who pretends to speak for the
"ordinary man!"  It is sufficient that this is Mr. Phillps' opinion
and that of his closest friends, and I am sorry they are so irritated.
I myself avoid them because I do not like to dwell on the past.

	(2) Given that unnatural prolongation, certain people were bound
	to latch on to the fact that the Holocaust was being used to 
	promote a certain political agenda and that this was not an 
	American agenda.

This "agenda" I take to be support for Israel.  Personally, I do not 
support Israel, but I do not see what is not American about it.
Before the fall of the Soviet Union, Israel was the only ally that
America had in the region.  Long before Pollard was arrested for 
espionage--before America had satellites that could pick up delicate
information in the Middle East--Israeli spies monitored Soviet activity
in the region for America.  Now that the Soviet Union has finally
fallen, both the State Department and some dubious American "patriots"
have demonstrated how short their memories are.

	The ordinary man does not feel the slightest guilt about being 
	white or being Aryan...

There he goes again, ignoring his own propaganda about how the "white
Aryan" is a minority in the world, he singles out "white Aryans" as
the prototypical "ordinary man."

	...or being American and sees no valid reason 
	why he ought to feel any guilt.

Every American ought to be proud to be American, and proud of his fellow
Americans, even the ones he disagrees with.  I am proud to participate
in the American-developed and American-sponsored internet, where
government funds are wasted everyday by extremists claiming to be
"censored" because they have not made it to the cover of Time Magazine.
Where else in the world can Jews and Jew-haters exchange views
in public without fear?  (Except, of course, for those few paranoids who
ridicule everyone else's fears, then cut and run when someone posts
their addresses.)  I love this country and I am proud to be the
fellow citizen of Mr. Phillips, Mr. Moran, and Mr. McTavish regardless
of their misinformed and prejudiced attitudes towards me, my parents,
and my children.  I do not want them to feel guilty because they
are Americans, nor do I like to be made to feel guilty because I am
a Jew.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:19 EDT 1998
Article: 183367 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Subject: Re: JGB hahahhaha what a joke you are!!
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Loki spews:

	Well thought out arguments are constantly put to you in this NG 
	from a variety of gifted and intelligent writers and none of
	them has made the slightest difference to your pig headed views 
	or methods.

So many "well thought out arguments" that Mr. loki cannot point to
a single, solitary one!

By the way, I thought Mr. Loki presented himself as a lurker, and now
here he is posting away.  I guess that Mr. DeBunko requested additional
help from his handlers and they sent Mr. Loki in -- that is, unless
this is just another alias for someone already participating, who
is desparately trying to boost the numbers for "his side."

	so why would I bother?? I'd rather just call you a FUCKING 
	ASSHOLE!!  Saves my time and yours that way.

But that is one of the "well thought out arguments!"

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:20 EDT 1998
Article: 183797 of alt.revisionism
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JEFF ROBERTS wrote:
> 
> In article <357DB1FE.1E7B9869@mci.com>, Harry Katz
> 
> writes
> >tom moran vomited:
> >
> >       One person losing 120 relatives in the Holocaust?
> >       It certainly would be fun to see a full accounting of how he
> >       arrives at it.
> >
> >I responded:
> >
> >       Further proof of Mr. Moran's total intellectual bankruptcy!
> >       He finds the loss of family and loved ones to be "fun!"
> >
> >       Ample illustration of the denier ethic:  Always pour salt into
> >       the wound and then pretend to be offended when the victim
> lashes  out.
> >
> >       Now, Mr. Moran will deny that he is an anti-Semite!
> >
> >As predicted, Mr. Moran comes back with:
> >
> >       Mr.Katz' idea of an "anti-Semite" is one who doesn't believe
> in
> >       Jewish lies.
> >
> >Not at all, and Mr. Moran cannot support that mischaracterization
> with
> >a single shred of evidence from any of my posts.
> >
> >I call Mr. Moran an anti-Semite because he calls Jews liars without
> >a single shred of evidence to back it up; and when this is pointed
> out
> >he very loudly demands that Jews must provide evidence that they
> >are not lying, as he does next:
> >
> >       Why should anyone believe in the 120? Just because the person
> >       said it?
> >
> >Why is anyone considered innocent until proven guilty?
> >
> >       Mr.Katz' the ethnocentric racist...
> >
> >That is nothing but ad hominem slander, and what makes it different
> >from calling Mr. Moran an anti-Semite is that Mr. Moran can be shown
> >to be an anti-Semite from his writings, whereas Mr. Moran cannot
> produce
> >a single post of mine that demonstrates either ethnocentricity or
> >racism.
> >
> >       ...says when a Jew speaks everyone must accept it as
> >       infallible fact.
> >
> >When the only reason for not believing a man is that he is a Jew,
> >that is anti-Semitism.
> >
> >       What kind of term would he have for someone who doesn't
> believe
> >       in a goyim lie?
> >
> >Let's cut through Mr. Moran's confusion.  Any Jew who thinks that no
> >Gentile can be trusted or believed simply because he is not a Jew --
> >that Jew is a bigot, just like Mr. Moran.
> >
> >--
> >Harry Katz
> 
> look harry,
> 
> Yes, lets cut through Mr Moran's confusion. He asks that YFE post the
> evidence for the claim that he lost 160/120 relatives to the
> newsgroup.
> YFE has not.
> 
> I suspect, that when I come back from holiday [on the 20th], that for
> various reasons, YFE will not have posted his evidence to the ng.
> 
> So, why doesn't YFE just post his evidence to the NG?
> 
> a] Is it, as some claim, Jews can lie to non-jews?
> b] That YFE hasn't got the evidence?
> c] That YFE is holding back for some reason?
> d] another reason.
> 
> For myself :-
> 
> a) The idea that YFE should be trusted, because he is a Jew is not
> valid.
> b) The idea that YFE should not be trusted because he is a Jew is not
> valid.
> c) The idea that YFE should be or shouldn't be trusted should be based
> on our preconceptions of his truthfullness, is valid.
> 
> Since, YFE continues to withhold the evidence for his claim that
> 160/120
> of his relatives died in gas chambers/etc , then I think option c]
> will
> be registered in the negative.
> 
> YFE has made the claim, now let's see the evidence.
> 
> CHECK OUT THESE WEB SITES
> CODOH        http://www.codoh.com/
> GREG RAVEN   http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
> ERNST ZUNDEL http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english
> ADELAIDE INSTITUTE http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html
> IRVING  http://www.fpp.co.uk
> 
> Jeff Roberts
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let your love towards life, be love towards your highest hope:
> and let your highest hope be the highest idea of life.
> Friedrich Nietzsche 1844 - 1900
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:20 EDT 1998
Article: 183910 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Richard Schultz wrote:

	And as I have pointed out, in the first instance, the word 
	"heathen" was itself an interpolation by the translator and DOES
	NOT APPEAR IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT.

Mr. DeBunk once more broadcasts his ignorance tot he entire world:

	Well, it appears in THIS text.  Take up any complaints with the
	publishers.

The original text that Mr. Schultz refers to is the original Aramaic --
that is, the untranslated text.  The translator added the word 
"heathen," which does indeed appear in the translation, but is not an
exact equivalent of the Aramaic word under consideration.  Mr. Schultz 
says as much in his post, but Mr. DeBunk is too intent on smearing
those who are trying to correct him to pay cloase attention.  Mr. DeBunk
in more interested in preserving his reputation as a debater to be
interested in the truth.

Mr. Schultz continued:

	The original text has the phrase used to mean "idolator,"
	which you claimed means non-Jew in general.  It does not.  You 
	went two for two, in other words.

Mr. DeBunk responds by shoving his foot a little further down his 
throat:

	I used the word printed exactly in my offered translation of the
	book.  Direct your corrections to them.

Yes, he did quote the translation, and now he is too bull-headed to
listen to anyone who knows, about what was actually written down in
the original, untranslated, Aramaic text.

To recap, the Aramaic word that was translated as "heathen" in no way
refers to all non-Jews.  It refers only to idol worshippers, and often
refers to the occupying forces of Rome.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:21 EDT 1998
Article: 183914 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: ((( More mistranslations ? )))
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ASMarques writes:

	The worst mistranslation lies in the words "davon" and
	"muessen". "...Muessen..." does not mean "we must kill", it 
	means "they are almost certain to die", and the "davon" ("from 
	it") clearly shows the reason is the deporting process, and not 
	any sort of *active* mass-murdering.

So, the Nazis expected the deportation process to cause the deaths of
the vast majority of Jews deported, and Mr. Marques thinks this is not
"any sort of active mass-murdering!"

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:21 EDT 1998
Article: 183917 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Subject: Re: American Congress Has "More Than 50" Documented Socialists in The House. (Democratic Socialists of America)
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I wrote that Doc Tavish quoted the Democratic Socialists of America:

	"DSA is working with the Congressional Progressive Caucus, a
	network of more than 50 progressive members of the US House of
	Representatives."

	He then reprints some quotations from their web page that does 
	indeed prove that they indeed are socialists, just as their name
	clearly indicates."

Mr. Tavish, obviously stung by the truth, begins his usual process
of obfuscation:

	I wonder if Comrades Allan [Matthews] and Harry...

Typical Tavish smear tactic:  Because I expose his lies and distortions
he must smear me as a "comrade!"

	...would be as relaxed and care free if on the other hand we had
	NSWPP "working with" 58 members in Congress?

I would never make the stupid mistake of taking the word of the NSWPP
at face value, without asking if these 58 members of Congress
acknowledge the connection themselves -- which is what Mr. Tavish does
with the DSA.

	How about it neo-Bolsheviks?

Lurkers take note!  Anyone who points out Mr. Tavish's lies is labeled
a "neo-Bolshevik!"  Think of the implications if the NSWPP were to
actually gain political power:  It means that even "White" people will
not be safe if they do not agree with Mr. Tavish on every detail of his
political delusions.

My last post continued:

	The sleight-of-hand is this:  He does not bother to get the
	Progressive Caucus reaction to being courted by the DSA.

To which Mr. Tavish has no factual support, so he resorts to bluff and
bluster and hopes no one will notice his total intellectual bankruptcy:

	They are the Progressive Caucus because they are willing clients
	of the DSA- the DSA is not courting them!

And if you do not believe it, just ask Mr. tavish and he will repeat
himself, ad infinitum.  Just do not ask for proof!

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:22 EDT 1998
Article: 183956 of alt.revisionism
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Debunks spews:

	I am an authority on Judaism.

What is more pathetic than an outright liar?  The answer is, someone
who lies to himself!

If Mr DeBunks actually believes he is "an authority on Judaism,"
he is deluding himself, but no one else!

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:22 EDT 1998
Article: 183962 of alt.revisionism
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Doc Tavish wrote:

	BTW Folks in regards to the post just above- Neither Harry Katz 
	nor any of his allies have yet (to this date 6/14/1998) named 
	one mainline Jewish organization that is Pro-Life!

I cannot speak for my so-called "allies" because I have no idea who
Mr. Tavish means by that statement, but I can attest that he is indeed
correct as far as my posts are concerned.  I have never "named one 
mainline Jewish organization that is Pro-Life," nor do I intend to.
In fact, I have never commented on the abortion issue at all.

Now, it is my turn to note that I have several times demonstrated that
Mr. Tavish employs outright lies and not-so-subtle distortions to
smear Jews and Judaism, and that neither Mr. Tavish, nor his allies,
have even attempted to disprove me.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:23 EDT 1998
Article: 183963 of alt.revisionism
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Ian P. McKinney wrote:

	I see. Karl Marx, a Jew, created communism,...

Karl Marx never was a Jew.  His parents converted to Christianity before
he was born.  In other words, Christianity created Karl Marx, who then
created "scientific socialism" to replace the "unscientific" socialism
that had not been invented by Jews, but had been floating around
Europe for decades.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:23 EDT 1998
Article: 183966 of alt.revisionism
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Ian P. McKinney spews:

	Attacking the publisher now instead of the author? Well that's 
	at least a slightly different twist on your usual slandering.

Whereas Mr. McKinney never wavers from his "usual slandering" of Jews
and anything else he happens not to like.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:24 EDT 1998
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Doc Tavish spews:

	The preceding article was reprinted from the September, 1995, 
	issue of Sobran's.

	There you have it folks a conservative gentile columnist's
	views on the situation with the Jew Establishment.

What Mr. Tavish neglects to mention -- either because he is too 
prejudiced to be fair, or because he is too ignorant to know -- is that
William F. Buckley, Jr., another "conservative gentile columnist," and
a long-time friend of Mr. Sobran and publisher of some of Sobran's work,
identified Sobran publicly as an anti-Semite!

	I wonder how many E-Mailings Joe Sobran gets from spittle 
	dribbling Jews screaming that he's a Nazi?

So, now William F. Buckley, Jr. is a "spittle dribbling Jew!"

I wonder how many e-mails Mr. Sobran gets from lick-spittle Nazis
claiming him as one of their own.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:24 EDT 1998
Article: 184165 of alt.revisionism
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Debunks quoted the Talmud:

	"But  a heathen (Gentile) chould not be allowed to perform
	circumcision on an Israelite, because he is liable to take his
	life.  This is the opinion of R. Meier.  The Sages said:  A
	heathen may circumcize an Israelite, so long as others are
	standing by him, but not while he is on his own.  R. Meier,
	however, said,:  Not even when others are standing by him, for
	he may find occasion to let the knife slip and so sterilise
	him."

I replied:

	Mr. DeBunk's first mistake is to equate "heathen" with 
	"Gentile." First of all, the word "heathen" is an English 
	translation of an Aramaic word, and the exact meaning cannot be 
	determined without knowing what Aramaic word was employed.  In 
	ordinary English usage, the two words are not equivalent, 
	Gentile referring to any non-Jew, and heathen referring 
	specifically to people who have never been exposed to
	Christianity.  Without access to the original Aramaic, I would 
	guess that the word "heathen" was used here because the original
	word implies ignorance of God or Judaism.

Mr. DeBunk comes back with:

	Fine.  Are you then suggesting that the talmud and other 
	commentaries contain no insulting anti-Christian rhetoric?

Before I answer this question I would first like to point out that
Mr. DeBunk is not interested in the original Aramaic or its actual
implications.  He is only interested in "insulting anti-Christian
rhetoric" that he can use as a club for beating Jews.

As for actual "insulting anti-Christian rhetoric" in the Talmud, there
is none per se.  All of the insulting rhetoric that has been identified
as anti-Christian in the Talmud is actually directed against "minim"
which is the Aramaic word for "heretics."  The minim were apostate 
Jews who embraced either pre-Christianity or Gnosticism; the Talmud does
not bother to distinguish between the two, and scholars can only 
speculate as to which is meant in any particular passage of the
Talmud based on the actual theological principles that are criticised in
the text, if any.

I refer to pre-Christianity because in Talmudic times the minim were not
called Christians.  In fact, the Christian Book of Acts mentions that
the word Christian was first coined by Paul and used in Greece to
describe his sect.  Furthermore, in spite of the seeming sympathy of
modern, anti-Semitic "Christians" for these maligned minim, they were
shunted aside rather early in Christian history for advocating close
ties to Judaism and the practice of Jewish rituals.  Ultimately, they
died out.

Mr. DeBunk next asked:

	Well, whatif the "heathen" was a medical doctor?

I replied:

	First of all, modern medical science did not exist at the time 
	of these rabbinic discussions,...

Here, Mr. DeBunk breaks in:

	Of course not.  This is the 20th century.

Duh...!  My reply continued:

	...so they could not have been intended to deal with that
 	question.

Mr. DeBunk responds:

	You are implying there were no gentile physicians at the time?

I am not "implying" anything.  I am stating as a plain fact that there
were absolutely no physicians at that period of time, Jewish or Gentile.

My last reply continued:

	Secondly, there is no reason to equate a modern doctor with a 
	"heathen" as all doctors are well-educated and familiar with
	Christian and Jewish concepts of God

Which only brings out Mr. DeBunk's unconscious racism:

	How about a Chinese doctor?

Which "Chinese doctor" was mentioned in the Talmud?  Since Mr. DeBunk 
seems to have difficulty with his reading comprehension, I am obliged to
repeat myself:  Modern medical science did not exist at the time of 
these rabbinic discussions, so they could not have been intended to deal
with that question.  (Not to mention that there could not have been
many Chinese in ancient Babylon.)

My last reply went on:

	At best, a doctor could only be an "infidel" which is someone 
	who rejects Christianity.

Mr. DeBunks responds:

	See above.

Indeed.

	How about doctors who have rejected both Christianity as well as
	Judaism?

"...as well as Judaism!"  Again, Mr. DeBunk demonstrates his inability
to read.  I plainly wrote "someone who rejects Christianity" -- not 
Judaism!

Non-Jewish doctors have no need of rejecting Judaism as Jews do not seek
converts.  A non-Jewish doctor who rejects Judaism is known as a 
Gentile, and a non-Jewish doctor who has never even heard of Judaism
is known as a Gentile.

My last reply went on:

	A medical doctor may not perform a ritual circumcision because 
	he would want to sedate the baby first, which is strictly 
	prohibited, and he would also want to use some special medical 
	device, which is also prohibited.

Which elicits this tidbit from Mr. DeBunk's well of wisdom:

	And what if he didn't?

Then he would not be a doctor!

	Do you suggest this is impossible?

Extremely unlikely, especially as a doctor can be sued for malpractice.
(Yes, a mohel -- a person trained in the performance of the ritual of
circumcision -- can be sued, too, but a doctor can be sued for using
the usual method of the mohel even if nothing goes wrong, because it is 
not sanctioned by the medical profession; whereas a mohel can only be
sued if something does go wrong.)

	Or is it because he does not qualify as a mohel?

Even if the doctor is Jewish and willing to use a knife and forego
anesthesia, if he does not qualify as a mohel he will not be allowed to 
perform a circumcision.

Training is not an issue in this Talmudic passage.  It goes without
saying that they were speaking of qualified "heathens" which is not
far-fetched (like the ancient Babylonian-Chinese modern doctor!)
considering that circumcision was at the time a common social practice
in Africa, and not restricted to the Jewish faith.

My last reply continued:

	But what is most telling is that Mr. DeBunk thinks there is 
	something inherently wrong with Jews being concerned about who 
	cuts on their generative organs,...

To which, Mr. DeBunk responds:

	That, of course, is not the issue.

Mr. DeBunk demonstrates his confusion, as he contradicts himself in his
very next sentence:

	I see this as an issue of unwarranted paranoia.

In other words, as I wrote above, "Mr. DeBunk thinks there is something 
inherently wrong with Jews being concerned about who cuts on their 
generative organs."  He thinks such concern is "unwarranted paranoia!"

	If this is simply a religious issue, why the obvious paranoia? 

It is "simply a religious issue," and as a religious issue it would be
perfectly correct for the ritual to be performed exclusively by a
Jewish mohel.  After all, a rabbi does not perform the marriage 
ceremony for Christians, and a priest or minister does not perform the
marriage ceremony for Jewish couples.  The fact that the rabbis even
consider the question is a sign of the liberal nature of their
discussions, if not their conclusions.

	The comments imply that non-Jews cannot be trusted,...
	
First, let me remind everyone that it was Rabbi Meir who voiced the
concern that Mr. DeBunk labels "paranoia."  All of the other rabbis
participating in this particular discussion disagreed.

	...because they might be 'out to get them."  Castrating infants 
	and all.

The key word here is "might".  No one says it is definitely so, but
R. Meir thought it prudent to err on the side of caution, not
because all "non-Jews cannot be trusted," but because some non-Jews
might not be trustworthy.  Again, consider what is at stake.
Mr. DeBunk may adopt a cavalier pose, but my guess is that he too
would be careful before letting just anyone, even a qualified,
competent medical doctor, start cutting on his, or his son's, organs.

My last reply concluded:

	...especially during a historic period in which people of all 
	nations and races were much less civilized and much more crude
	and cruel.

Which brings out this irrelevant observation from Mr. DeBunk:

	Yes and no.  After world war two and cambodia, do you still wish
	to pursue that line of reasoning?

First, Mr. DeBunk calls Jewish concern "unwarranted paranoia," then he
refutes himself by citing World War II and Cambodia to prove that 
even modern man cannot be considered civilized!

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:25 EDT 1998
Article: 184187 of alt.revisionism
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Hansjoerg Walther wrote:

	Yes, because "ausrotten" does not have the meaning "uproot".

ASMarques replies:

	Okay. Let's shorten the dicussion with *another* dictionnary if 
	you don't like the first one (gosh !).
	Langenscheists Taschen-woerterbuch Englisch (Deutsch-Englisch)
	(Vollstaendige Neuerarbeitung 1990), page 763:

	AUSROTTEN: root out, exterminate.

Mr. Marques displays his ignorance in two languages!  To "root out" in
the English language is an idiom, and it does not mean to uproot
(especially in the sense of uprooting for transplanting, or, in this
case, deportation).  It means to destroy completely.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:25 EDT 1998
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ASMarques writes:

	Since you don't trust German dictionaries (see the "ausrotten" 
	business)...

The problem in the "ausrotten" business is not the facility that others
do or do not have in German, but Mr. Marques utter inability to
understand plain English.  As I posted in the "Ausrotten" thread,
to "root out" does not mean to "uproot!" -- it means to destroy
completely, entirely, and utterly.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:26 EDT 1998
Article: 184197 of alt.revisionism
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Doc Tavish spews:

	More biblical proof that Jews are a race in addition to the 
	proofs I supplied below in the post I replied to.

	Acts 7:14-19 (RSV)...
	Romans 9:1-4 (RSV)...
	Acts 10:28 (YLT)...
	Acts 13:26 (YLT)...

	Now I ask- was the Bible denoting Jews on account of Judaism or 
	their race?

This is an easy one!  Every person who converts to Judaism is accepted
as a member of the Jewish people or "race."  Every convert is given
a new Hebrew name that indicates that he or she is a child of our
Biblical forefather Abraham.  The term "race" as used in the Bible, is 
not the same as the modern, scientific usage.

Furthermore, we do not know what the original Greek terms were here 
translated into the  English word, "race," but if you look closely at 
Mr. Tavish's citations you will note he uses two different translations
of Acts!  It seems likely that the reason for this is that the RSV
version does not use the word "race" where the YLT edition does, and
vice versa.

So, once more, Mr. Tavish has been exposed as a propagandist willing
to distort his sources to make his point.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:26 EDT 1998
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Doc Tavish spews:

	Judaism is a religion not a race. You can be a Jew but not 
	practice Judaism- i.e. secular and atheistic Jews.

But, you cannot be a Jew and practice Christianity, as is evidenced
by the rejection of so-called "Messianic Jews" by each and every
branch and sect of Judaism.  Likewise, you cannot be a Jew and practice
Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Shintoism, etc.  It is true that a Jew
who does not practice Judaism remains a Jew, but only because he has
not rejected Judaism outright, and it is hoped that he or she will one
day return to the fold.

	If religion is the only criteria you all wish to use to proclaim
	a person a Jew then how do you explain the genetics of the 
	disease known as Tay-sachs?

If Jews are a genetically uniform "race," how does Mr. Tavish account
for the fact that Tay-Sachs only strikes Ashkenazi Jews, and never
strikes Sephardi Jews.

--
Harry Katz


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Ian P. McKinney spews:

	The fact is that the Jewish Encyclopedia, if my memory serves, 
	lists Karl Marx as a Jew.

The Jewish Encyclopedia mentions Karl Marx only because Gentiles like
Mr. McKinney persist in identifying him as a Jew.  The encyclopedia,
nevertheless, does not list Marx "as a Jew!"  Furthermore, Marx's 
parents were not Jewish, either.  They converted to Christianity
before his birth.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:28 EDT 1998
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Doc Tavish spewed:

	Judaism is a religion not a race. You can be a Jew but not
	practice Judaism- i.e. secular and atheistic Jews.

I replied:

	But, you cannot be a Jew and practice Christianity, as is 
	evidenced by the rejection of so-called "Messianic Jews" by each
	and every branch and sect of Judaism.  Likewise, you cannot be a
	Jew and practice Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Shintoism, etc.

Now Ian P. McKinney replies with a characterization of his post:

	Bullshit,...

That is what is coming next!

	...Ben Gurion was a Buddhist by religion.

That is a whopper that I have never heard before.

--
Harry Katz


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Ian P. McKinney spews:

	What do you expect, someone to say "Yes, we want to stop and 
	give our heartfelt thanks to the Jewish people for communism." 

How about, "We realize that Jews are not responsible for Communism at 
all.  That is a fiction promulgated by the forgery known as the
'Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.'"

	Or "We, Americans, want to thank Israel for blackmailing us into
	giving them billions of dollars every year."

How about, "We Americans are grateful to Israel for preventing the 
spread of Communism in the Middle East before the fall of the Soviet
Union."

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:28 EDT 1998
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Cuddles writes:

	But, on the other hand, if Judaism is NOT a race, which it 
	manifestly is not, it causes a problem for those people who want
	to claim that the 'holocaust' is unique because people were 
	persecuted on racial grounds (or 'grounds they couldn't help').

Who are these people "who want to claim that the 'holocaust' is unique 
because people were persecuted on racial grounds?"  I have not read a
single post from anyone making that claim.

The uniqueness of the Holocaust is not that people were "persecuted on 
racial grounds," as that has been going on since the dawn of human
history.  There are many elements that make the Holocaust unique, but
that is not one of them.

One of the things that does make the Holocaust unique is that for the
first time in history Christian converts of Jewish origin were
persecuted alongside faithful Jews.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:29 EDT 1998
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Alexander Baron wrote:

	This is what gets me about the Nizkor crowd and Organised Jewry.
	At this time millions of people throughout the world believed in
	the Protocols and Jewish financial and other conspiracies, even 
	Jews believed in it. They weren't anti-Semitic, simply wrong. 
	A lot of people don't know how to assess evidence.

Indeed!  But how could anyone believe that the Protocols are true and
that there is a Jewish financial conspiracy without becoming
anti-Semitic as a result?  Or does Mr. Baron think that all of these
people, who were "simply wrong" would say, "The Jews are plotting to
enslave the rest of mankind.  What a good idea!"

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:29 EDT 1998
Article: 184251 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: A Serious Racist Contradiction
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The anti-Semitic racists on the internet, like Harold Covington,
continually harangue us about the so-called "Protocols of the Learned
Elders of Zion" and the Blood Libel, implying that Jews are so well
organized that not one has let the cat out of the bag in the last
several thousand years!

These same confused individuals point to the continual complaint
of Jewish organizations that Jews are intermarrying with non-Jews as
proof of Jewish racism.

Yet, not one of them seems to realize that these two facts are in
direct contradiction!  How is it that Jews are supposedly so disciplined
that we can murder children for centuries without the slightest
break in ranks, but cannot keep our own children in the fold?

I predict that no racist will respond to this question, as it is too
revealing and embarassing.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:30 EDT 1998
Article: 184532 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: "Mr. Talmud" blows it again (Was: Debunks is no Talmudic scholar)
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Richard Schultz wrote:

	And as I have pointed out, in the first instance, the word
	"heathen" was itself an interpolation by the translator and DOES
	NOT APPEAR IN THE ORIGINAL TEXT.

I concurred:

	The original text that Mr. Schultz refers to is the original 
	Aramaic -- that is, the untranslated text.  The translator added
	the word "heathen," which does indeed appear in the translation,
	but is not an exact equivalent of the Aramaic word under 
	consideration.

Now Mr. DeBunk proudly proclaims:

	I am not concerned.  After all, rabbis translated these texts 
	into English.  Are you suggesting they are liars or ignorant of 
	the texts?

What I am suggesting is that Mr. DeBunk is not qualified to comment on
these matters, as he so amply demonstrates at every turn.  For example,
the rabbis who did the translation did the best they could, given that
there is not necessarily an exact equivalent in English for every 
Aramaic word in the Talmud.  Mr. DeBunk cannot understand this concept
and that disqualifies him as a "scholar."

Furthermore, the rabbis translated the word as "heathen," but it was
Mr. DeBunk who wrote parenthetically that this was equivalent to the
word "Gentile" -- that is, any non-Jew.  Mr. DeBunk made this egregious
error because he was commenting on the English word "heathen" and not on
the original Aramaic word, which he cannot comment on as he has no
knowledge or understanding of Aramaic.  (By the way, even in English,
the word "heathen" is not equivalent to the word "Gentile.")

Yet, he stubbornly clings to his ignorance as if it were the most
profound of truths.

My last post concluded:

	To recap, the Aramaic word that was translated as "heathen" in 
	no way refers to all non-Jews.  It refers only to idol 
	worshippers, and often refers to the occupying forces of Rome.

Sensing defeat, Mr. DeBunk seeks to change the subject:

	Oh, I see.  Now, care to tell us why the rabbis say that gentile
	men prefer the cattle of the Israelites to their own women?

Because they had heard stories of bestiality among local Gentiles that
they believed.  Whether they believed that the practice was widespread
among Gentiles or restricted to a few bad eggs is not clear.  Certainly,
bestiality does occur even in modern society.  Furthermore, the 
discussion cited concerns sacrificial cattle dedicated to the Temple.
In these cases, even the shadow of a doubt as to the purity of the
animal will disqualify it for sacrificial use.

Now I have a question.  Is Mr. DeBunk interested in the Talmud as a
whole, or just in the short, scattered passages that can be easily
misinterpreted to slander Judaism?

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:30 EDT 1998
Article: 184534 of alt.revisionism
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From: Harry Katz 
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Subject: Re: "Mr. Talmud" blows it again (Was: Debunks is no Talmudic scholar)
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Debunks wrote:
> 
> >Subject: Re: "Mr. Talmud" blows it again (Was: Debunks is no Talmudic
> >scholar)
> >From: schultr@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il ()
> >Date: Tue, Jun 16, 1998 00:15 EDT
> >Message-id: <6m4rgg$keu$2@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il>
> >
Mr. DeBunk wrote:

	Who cares what you believe?  you're all a pack of liars.

Richard Schultz replied;

	I still think it's interesting that you cannot produce a single
	example of an actual lie that any of us has posted.

As if he wanted to prove Mr. Schultz is correct, Mr. DeBunk writes:

	Q:  How do you know when a Niakook is lying?
	A:  His (her) lips are moving.

In other words, no, he cannot post a single, solitary example of a lie
posted by his many critics, but he hopes his bluster will divert
attention away from his total intellectual bankruptcy.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:31 EDT 1998
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Doc Tavish demonstrates his total confusion and ignorance:

	So Abraham was a religion? Jews are saying they are a religion 
	and not a race. So comparing your version to mine then Abraham 
	was a religion then?

All Jews are considered to be the "children of Abraham," including those
Jews who converted to Judaism from another religion.  So, Judaism is
the religion of Abraham and of the children of Abraham.

Anyone, like Mr. Tavish, who cannot understand such simple concepts has
no business commenting on these matters at all.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:31 EDT 1998
Article: 184543 of alt.revisionism
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Someone forging ZOG's address posts:

	ZOG wrote in message ...  Biblical proof that jews are indeed 
	the most stinkest and cowardly race ever!! PU!

A forger calling Jews "cowardly!"  That is a prime example of
psychological projection.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:32 EDT 1998
Article: 184544 of alt.revisionism
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Doc Tavish spews:

	Click this link (to verify) if you want to see Talmudic material
	on approval of child molestation. Totally irrefutable too!

Mr. Tavish must be using a definition of the word "irrefutable" that
has not yet made it into any dictionary of the English language.
I personally refuted this maliciously deceptive diatribe and Mr. Tavish
never posted a response.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:32 EDT 1998
Article: 184551 of alt.revisionism
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Doc Tavish spews:

	If Communism Was Bad For the Citizens of Korea and Vietnam Then 
	Why Do We Tolerate it Here?

For the same reason we tolerate Nazism, even though it was not only
bad for the German people, but disastrous for the reat of Europe and
the world as well.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:33 EDT 1998
Article: 184555 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: The "Russian Revolution" Was A Jewish Affair. It's Undeniable.
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Ian P. McKinney spewed:

	Dr. Fredrick Lachman, Executive Editor of the Encyclopedia
	Judaica, confirms that Marx's both grandfathers and at least one
	uncle were rabbis. He reports that his father was forced to 
	convert to protestantism in 1817 a year before Karl was born, 
	but Karl himself wasn't converted until he was six. 
	Apparently his mother never converted and thus it was necessary 
	to for Karl to make an official conversion years after he was 
	born. That means Karl was born a Jew by a Jewish mother.

According to my copy of the "New Universal Jewish Encyclopedia" both
parents converted shortly before Karl was born.  The so-called
"officail conversion" of Karl refers to his first baptism.

Furthermore, there is no mention of the father being "forced" to 
convert.  The father converted in order to secure public employment
which was restricted to Christians.  It is curious that Mr. McKinney
maintains that the father was forced to convert, but the mother was not.
While it is very convenient for his thesis that Karl was a Jew, it
does not stand to reason.

Karl Marx himself was not interested in Jewish issues, wrote many things
that echoed the anti-Semitic writings of his time, and regarded Jews
as financial pariahs who would be eliminated by the adoption of
Communism around the world.

--
Harry Katz


--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:33 EDT 1998
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Ian P. McKinney spews:

	My opinion is based on logic given the facts at hand.

Mr. McKinney has neither the facts nor the logic.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:33 EDT 1998
Article: 184558 of alt.revisionism
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Ian P. McKinney spews:

	While some persons, who deny Jewish involvement in communism,
	will concede that Marx was indeed Jewish, let's see the them 
	deny the communist-Jewish connection as clearly exposed in 
	diplomatic cables that passed between American representatives 
	in Russia and Washington D.C. during the time of the Bolshevik 
	take-over of Russia.

That is simple!  The ambassador to Russia was obviously anti-Semitic
himself, and he swallowed every anti-Semitic lie told to him by the
White Russian opposition.  That is the only plausible explanation for
why America was not successful in turning back the tide of revolution
in Russia -- that by going after the wrong enemy, the Jews, they let
the real enemy have a free hand.

How many Jews were in the U.S. State Department at that time?

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:34 EDT 1998
Article: 184587 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: Re: Debunks is no Talmudic scholar
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I wrote:

	The minim were apostate Jews who embraced either 
	pre-Christianity or Gnosticism; the Talmud does not bother to 
	distinguish between the two...

	I refer to pre-Christianity because in Talmudic times the minim 
	were not called Christians.

Mike Curtis replies:

	In most cases they were other Jews.

In all cases, they were Jews.  The rabbis would not call a Gentile
member of the early church a "heretic" since he was never a Jew to
begin with.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:34 EDT 1998
Article: 184590 of alt.revisionism
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oc Tavish whined:

	Judaism is a religion not a race. You can be a Jew but not
	practice Judaism- i.e. secular and atheistic Jews.

I replied:

	But, you cannot be a Jew and practice Christianity, as is 
	evidenced by the rejection of so-called "Messianic Jews" by each
	and every branch and sect of Judaism.

Please note that Mr. Tavish cannot refute this fact, so he ignores it.
I continued:

	Likewise, you cannot be a Jew and practice Buddhism, Hinduism, 
	Jainism, Shintoism, etc.  It is true that a Jew who does not 
	practice Judaism remains a Jew, but only because he has
	not rejected Judaism outright, and it is hoped that he or she 
	will one day return to the fold.

Please note that Mr. Tavish cannot dispute this fact either.  His 
original post continued with:

	If religion is the only criteria you all wish to use to proclaim
	a person a Jew then how do you explain the genetics of the
	disease known as Tay-sachs?

Which I again easily refuted:

	If Jews are a genetically uniform "race," how does Mr. Tavish 
	account for the fact that Tay-Sachs only strikes Ashkenazi Jews,
	and never strikes Sephardi Jews.

Finally, Mr. Tavish's manages to muster a feeble defense:

	Easy to answer- you have "mongrelized" yourselves...

We could not possibly have become "'mongrelized'" all by ourselves!
The problem is that anti-Semitic Gentiles have always desired Jewish
women, generally staging pogroms and riots as an excuse to steal
Jewish property and rape Jewish women.  It is a sign of Jewish 
tolerance that a person is Jewish if his mother is Jewish because that
ensured that any offspring of rapine would be accepted into the
Jewish community.  (Yet another proof that Jews are not a race!)

At any rate, Mr. Tavish did not bother to explain who were the mongrels:
the Ashkenazim or the Sephardim or both; nor did he address the issue
that Jews are possibly two distinct races rather than one mongrelized
race.  The reason is apparent.  Mr. Tavish has no clue as to what he is
babbling on about, but he will repeat anything that attacks Jews.

Mr. Tavish continues:

	...and you are a race!

A mongrel cannot possibly be part of a single race by definition.  More
proof that Mr. Tavish is babbling.

By the way, I do not know for a fact if I am a mongrel or not --
Jewish tradition has it that I am descended from Aaron, brother of Moses
-- but if I am I am proud of it.  Every true geneticist knows that
pure breeds eventually deteriorate after so many generations, which
is why geneticists are always searching for new hybrids.  The scientific
term "hybrid vigor" was coined to describe the new energy brought to
an ancient and decaying breed by cross-breeding.

He concludes:

	Do you care to deny this:
	Acts 7:14-19 (RSV) etc.

Here is proof of Mr. Tavish's inability to read with comprehension!
The entire post he is responding to was a complete denial of all
the Biblical texts he reposts.  Too bad he missed it entirely.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:36 EDT 1998
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Debunks quoted the Talmud:

	"But  a heathen (Gentile) chould not be allowed to perform
	circumcision on an Israelite, because he is liable to take his
	life.  This is the opinion of R. Meier.  The Sages said:  A
	heathen may circumcize an Israelite, so long as others are
	standing by him, but not while he is on his own.  R. Meier,
	however, said,:  Not even when others are standing by him, for
	he may find occasion to let the knife slip and so sterilise
	him."

I replied:

	Mr. DeBunk's first mistake is to equate "heathen" with
	"Gentile." First of all, the word "heathen" is an English
	translation of an Aramaic word, and the exact meaning cannot be
	determined without knowing what Aramaic word was employed.  In
	ordinary English usage, the two words are not equivalent,
	Gentile referring to any non-Jew, and heathen referring
	specifically to people who have never been exposed to
	Christianity.  Without access to the original Aramaic, I would
	guess that the word "heathen" was used here because the original
	word implies ignorance of God or Judaism.

To which, Mr. DeBunk replies:

	Well, you are simply "guessing" as you just admitted.

Yes, I was guessing.  I did admit it and I do admit it.  Next, Mr. 
DeBunk displays some characteristic confusion:

	There is nothing wrong with admitting it, you know.

Duh...  Since I did admit it I need no lectures from Mr. DeBunk, who
also was guessing at the meaning of this word when he equated it with
any Gentile.  The difference is that my guess was educated because I
am familiar with the subject, whereas Mr. DeBunk merely came up with
what he considered to be the translation that cast the worst light
on the Talmud and Judaism.

Since my last post, however, I have been able to confirm the accuracy
of my guess.  The original reads "ovday kokhavim" which means literally
"star worshippers."  I do not think that Mr. DeBunk will now contend
that all Gentiles, Christians in particular, are ritual astrologers.

In his last post, Mr. DeBunk asserted:

	Fine.  Are you then suggesting that the talmud and other
	commentaries contain no insulting anti-Christian rhetoric?

My response was this:

	Before I answer this question I would first like to point out 
	that Mr. DeBunk is not interested in the original Aramaic or its
	actual implications.  He is only interested in "insulting 
	anti-Christian rhetoric" that he can use as a club for beating 
	Jews.

To which he now responds:

	This is also erroneous.  I am not interested in 'clubbing the
	Jews"... 

Please note that he does not deny that he has no interest in the
actual meaning of the ancient Aramaic text.  Next note that he loudly
claimed to have no interest in discussing the Talmud, yet he continues
to post excerpts that he thinks are "insulting" to non-Jews.  Posting
these distortions is the equivalent of clubbing Jews and that is what
Mr. DeBunk has done.

	but if they created the CLUB, why blame me?

We did not create any clubs.  My refutation of Mr. DeBunk's ignorant
interpretations of the Talmud prove that there is nothing insulting
about it.  I blame Mr. DeBunk for making unsubstantiated assertions
as well as outright lies in his desperation to make one of his
charges stick.

My last post continued:

	As for actual "insulting anti-Christian rhetoric" in the Talmud,
	there is none per se...

To which, Mr. DeBunk replies:

	Then you are ignorant of it.  Ever heard of Sefer Toldoth Yeshu,
	for one?

One of Mr. DeBunk's more egregious lies is that he is an authority on
Judaism and the Talmud.  I have heard of the so-called "Sefer Toldoth
Yeshu."  I have heard that it is a fabrication made up by the
so-called "I. B. Pranaitis" to fill out the slanderous volume, "The
Talmud Unmasked."  It is certainly not a book of the Talmud.

My last post continued:

	All of the insulting rhetoric that has been identified as 
	anti-Christian in the Talmud is actually directed against
	"minim" which is the Aramaic word for "heretics."

Which brings out this display of Mr. DeBunk's ignorance:

	Oh-Jewish Christians?

No, Jewish heretics, as I go on to explain.  It seems that Mr. DeBunk
is so intent on getting his say in that he does not bother to read
any post all the way through before shooting off his mouth.

My last post continued:

	The minim were apostate Jews who embraced either 
	pre-Christianity or Gnosticism; the Talmud does not bother to 
	distinguish between the two...

	I refer to pre-Christianity because in Talmudic times the minim 
	were not called Christians.  In fact, the Christian Book of Acts
	mentions that the word Christian was first coined by Paul and 
	used in Greece to describe his sect.  Furthermore, in spite of 
	the seeming sympathy of modern, anti-Semitic "Christians" for 
	these maligned minim, they were shunted aside rather early in 
	Christian history for advocating close ties to Judaism and the 
	practice of Jewish rituals.  Ultimately, they died out.

To which, Mr. DeBunk responds with his characteristic confusion:

	In fact, the rabbis would not even say the word...

Once again, they did not use the word "Christian" because they were
speaking of Jewish heretics.

	...they referred to Jesus as "that MAN"  or "the hanged one" or 
	the accursed  one."

First of all, that is a different subject.  The last thing I mentioned
were Gnostics, pre-Christians, heretics, but not Jesus.

Next, hat is pure speculation, as any scholar of the subject will 
readily admit.  The "hanged one" mentioned in the Talmud, to the best of
my recollection, was not hanged in Jerusalem, was not hanged in the
right year and season, and was not hanged for claiming to be the
Jewish messiah.  If Mr. DeBunk can provide the specific citation,
I can look it up again.

It is curious how the same people who deny that "resettlement to the
east" was code for deportation to death camps, at the same time
believe implicitly that the Talmud makes coded references to Jesus,
without a single, solitary shred of evidence to support them.

Mr. DeBunk continues:

	Now, try not to tell people that there is no anti-christian 
	rhetoric in the Talmud--there certainly IS, just there was much 
	anti-Jewish rhetoric from some Christian writers.

Mr. DeBunk seems to be upset that my translation of "minim" is more
precise than his.  He does not want to use the word "minim" or the
phrase "Jewish heretics" even though that is the precise meaning of
the word used in the Talmud.  He prefers the imprecise and sloppy
designation of Christian because that implies that the Talmud 
criticizes Gentiles, which it does not.  It does, however, criticize
heretics, idolators, and star worshippers.

Mr. DeBunk's last post continued:

	You are implying there were no gentile physicians at the time?

My last response was:

	I am not "implying" anything.  I am stating as a plain fact that
	there were absolutely no physicians at that period of time, 
	Jewish or Gentile.

To which he responds:

	that is not true.

I will concede there were people who called themselves "doctors" but
that has the misfortune of lumping together ancient blood letters
with modern surgeons.  Mr. DeBunk mentions these ancient "doctors"
as if they have the same authority as modern doctors.

I have already stipulated that the Gentiles under discussion were
competent to perform circumcisions.  What does the misleading 
appellation of "doctor" add to that?  We are not speaking of surgeons.

Here, Mr. DeBunk cuts out several lines of the last post, rendering
it incomprehensible.  He resumes in the middle of a passage from my last
post:

	as well as Judaism!"  Again, Mr. DeBunk demonstrates his 
	inability to read.  I plainly wrote "someone who rejects 
	Christianity" -- not Judaism!

To which he adds this reply:

	I am referring to the source of the problem.

Now this might be confusing enough to some to make some think that
Mr. DeBunk actually makes a point here, so let's put the missing part
back in.  My last reply said:

        ...there is no reason to equate a modern doctor with a 
        "heathen" as all doctors are well educated and familiar with
        Christian and Jewish concepts of God.  At best, a doctor could 
	only be an "infidel" which is someone who rejects Christianity.

Mr. DeBunk's reply to that, which he cut out of his post, was:

	How about doctors who have rejected both Christianity as well as
        Judaism?

Now, we are back to where Mr. DeBunk did not snip the post.  Let's
look at it again:

	"...as well as Judaism!"  Again, Mr. DeBunk demonstrates his 
	inability to read.  I plainly wrote "someone who rejects 
	Christianity" -- not Judaism!

Let's look at his current response again:

	I am referring to the source of the problem.

The "source of the problem" is Mr. DeBunk's vanity which refuses to
permit him to admit it when he is wrong, even when it is pointed
out to him in plain, simple, everyday terms.

My last post went on:

	Non-Jewish doctors have no need of rejecting Judaism as Jews d

Here again Mr. DeBunk cuts me short.  The complete statement was:

	Non-Jewish doctors have no need of rejecting Judaism as Jews do 
	not seek converts.

I do not think this cut was malicious -- just trying to save
bandwidth because he had no comment to add, but I restored it because
it relates to what was said previously, and to Mr. DeBunk's next comment
>from  his last post, which he did not cut:

	No it was Jews who out of paranoia rejected gentile physicians.

Again, much of my response is snipped, and I will snip some more
because I think the meat of the response is in the last sentence,
and I think that is the sentence that Mr. DeBunk responds to next.
I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong (and even if I am not!):

	Again, consider what is at stake.  Mr. DeBunk may adopt a 
	cavalier pose, but my guess is that he too would be careful 
	before letting just anyone, even a qualified, competent medical 
	doctor, start cutting on his, or his son's, organs.

Mr. DeBunk's response:

	You are exaggerating again.

I will leave that for others to decide.  Mr. DeBunk continues to support
his view:

	BTW, this paranoid...

Mr. DeBunk means "paranoia."

	...is present throughout the Talmud.  One rabbi adivses letting 
	a gentile stay in a ditch because he might throw the hebrew into
	it for helping him out!

Mr. DeBunk forgets, or more likely does not even know, that the
Talmud was composed during the Roman occupation of Judea and that the
Romans were "Gentiles" as well as "heathens" and "star worshippers"
(that is, they worshipped Mars, Mercury, Venus, etc.)  This is like
a Black slave in the ante-bellum period advising against helping a
White man out of a ditch because the White man might show his
appreciation by throwing the Black slave in.

Furthermore, the Talmud contains comments from dozens, if not hundreds,
of Rabbis, including comments and opinions that are rejected after
long, lively, and convoluted discussions.  It would be surprising if
it did not contain one or two paranoids in the bunch, especially as 
some had suffered at the hands of the Roman occupation.  What Mr. DeBunk
seems deliberately intent on avoiding is the fact that the majority
of the rabbis are not paranoid or prejudiced, but inspired and
deeply spiritual, moral, and ethical.

	Remember the story of the good Samaritan?

Indeed!  And there were also many good and decent White men living
in the ante-bellum South.

Also remember that the man who is credited with making that story up
was so far ahead of the rest of his generation -- and all mankind, for
that matter -- that he is revered as a god by millions, if not
billions.  Once again, Jews are being condemned because we are
not perfect, just human.  The parable of The Good Samaritan was the
product of someone who is considered perfect, after all.

Does Mr. DeBunk know no parables about good Jews?

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:36 EDT 1998
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I wrote of the Talmudic period of history:

	I am stating as a plain fact that there were absolutely no 
	physicians at that period of time, Jewish or Gentile.

Mike Curtis replied:

	Well, there were but not in the sense that Joe is trying to 
	allude. I recall that the Egyptians were known for their 
	"doctors."

Mr. DeBunk's then "innocently" whines:

	What are you talking about?  This is EXACTLY what I meant, 
	Mr Curtis.

What is the point?  I have stipulated that the discussion assumes
the "heathens" are qualified to perform the circumcision.  How does
the appellation of "physician" or "doctor" enhance the authority of
the "heathen" any more? -- especially when these ancient "doctors"
and "physicians" were just as likely to kill the healthy as cure the
ill and infirm.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:37 EDT 1998
Article: 184688 of alt.revisionism
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Hansjoerg Walther wrote:

	Yes, because "ausrotten" does not have the meaning "uproot".

ASMarques replied:

	Okay. Let's shorten the dicussion with *another* dictionnary if
	you don't like the first one (gosh !).  Langenscheists 
	Taschen-woerterbuch Englisch (Deutsch-Englisch)
	(Vollstaendige Neuerarbeitung 1990), page 763:

	AUSROTTEN: root out, exterminate.

I responded:

	Mr. Marques displays his ignorance in two languages!  To "root 
	out" in the English language is an idiom, and it does not mean 
	to uproot (especially in the sense of uprooting for 
	transplanting, or, in this case, deportation).  It means to 
	destroy completely.

To which, Mr. Marques responds:

	My, my.

How patronizing!  The first sign of intellectual bankruptcy.

	Back to the first dictionary:

	"Langenscheidts Taschenwoerterbuch der Portugiesischen und 
	Deutschen Sprache, 7.Auflage 1961". Here is how it translates 
	the portuguese "cortar pela raiz" (that's literally "uproot, cut
	by the root"). It's -- pay attention please --

I can hardly control myself.

	"BEI DER WURZEL FASSEN; AUSROTTEN".

	So what do you say ? The dictionary is wrong ?

Now all Mr. Marques has to do is produce the Portuguese-English 
dictionary that proves "cortar pela raiz" is "literally 'uproot'"
as he claims.  As for "cut by the root," for all I know that is
a literal translation for a Portuguese idiom that, like "root out,"
means more than the literal translation implies.  In other words,
the phrase in Portuguese may be equivalent to "destroy completely"
just as the phrase "root out" is in English.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:37 EDT 1998
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ASMarques wrote:

	Since you don't trust German dictionaries (see the "ausrotten"
	business)...

I replied:

	The problem in the "ausrotten" business is not the facility that
	others do or do not have in German, but Mr. Marques utter 
	inability to understand plain English.  As I posted in the 
	"Ausrotten" thread, to "root out" does not mean to "uproot!" -- 
	it means to destroy completely, entirely, and utterly.

Mr. Marques comes back with:

	Then please account for the following (see John Johnson's 
	message above):

	Search result of ausrotten
	The word you searched for was found 6 times.
		ausrotten
			to eradicate
			to exterminate
			to extirpate

So far, all of these definitions mean to destroy completely.  Now Mr.
Marques must correlate this data with yet another dictionary to find
an entry that he thinks he can distort:

	[JJ: "ex·tir·pate tr.v. ex·tir·pat·ed, ex·tir·pat·ing, 
	ex·tir·pates.  1. To pull up by the roots. 2. To destroy 
	totally; exterminate
	--AHDotELv3]

	Get it ? PULL OUT BY THE ROOTS.

What glee!  Ignorance is truly bliss!  What about "to eradicate" and
"to exterminate"?  That is definition number two for "extirpate" as
well, and, more importantly, it is the only definition of the two that
coresponds to the other definitions of ausrotten.

Furthermore, "to pull up by the roots" does not mean to "uproot!"  The
word "uproot" in English is used to describe the movement of people.
I do not know of any gardening or landscaping usage for this word.
But "to pull up by the roots" again means to destroy completely.

And Mr. Marques wonders whether or not I get it!

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:37 EDT 1998
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I wrote:
	How is it that Jews are supposedly so disciplined that we can 
	murder children for centuries without the slightest break in 
	ranks, but cannot keep our own children in the fold?

Alexander Baron replies:

	I don't think even wicked Harold believes that ALL Jews are 
	plotting to take over the world or that ALL Jews practice ritual
	murder. Even Lincoln Rockwell once said that "Not even all the 
	Jews are traitors, only some of them".

The problem is that their method for dealing with the bad Jewish
individuals is to eliminate or deport all the Jews, good and bad.
This is like saying that there some cockroaches that do not venture
into the kitchen, but stay in the walls.  In the end the fogger will
kill them all.

As for "wicked Harold," when he said Jews use blood in religious rituals
such as Passover and Purim, he was maligning all religious Jews, not
just some few crackpots who have misinterpreted Jewish ritual, nor
some insane individual like Jeffrey Daumer who happens to be Jewish.

Mr. Baron continues:

	I believe that Mr Katz is no Zionist but he still uses the 
	specious arguments of his cousins on Organised Jewry, ie anyone 
	who attacks some Jews or a group of them is a rabid anti-Semite 
	who is attacking all Jews.

First of all, there are people who are attacking all Jews in this very
newsgroup, Rockwell notwithstanding.  Secondly, as I said above, it
matters little if only some Jews are under attack when the "logical"
solution that every racist comes to is that all Jews must suffer for it.
I recognize the fact that some people do precisely this kind of sloppy
attack on White, Black, and Asian peoples as well as Jews, but I
personally go to great lengths to confine my criticism to individuals
and organizations I can name, and to specific statements I can cite.
I d not think it is asking too much, especially on sensitive topics
such as we discuss, for people who mean to criticize specific Jews for
specific acts, plainly indicate it.

	As for Jewish conspiracies, may I remind Mr Katz that Ygael Amir
	and two of his fellow travellers were convicted of plotting to 
	murder Yitzhak Shamir, so even the Israeli government believes 
	in Jewish conspiracies.

Mr. Baron is shooting from the hip because I know he is a bit more
intelligent than this.  Does the Israeli government believe in Jewish
conspiracies that have not turned up a single, solitary shred of
evidence even after operating for several thousand years?  Was the
Amir conviction based on the so-called "Protocols of the Learned Elders
of Zion"?  Or, perhaps, on some malicious medieval paranoia?

--
Harry Katz


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Doc Tavish spewed:

	If Communism Was Bad For the Citizens of Korea and Vietnam Then
	Why Do We Tolerate it Here?

I replied:

	For the same reason we tolerate Nazism, even though it was not 
	only bad for the German people, but disastrous for the rest of 
	Europe and the world as well.

Billy Bob Throckmorton puts in his two cents:

	How much free speech will be tolerated in this fine beautiful 
	nation if those that you so admire were to ever get total power?
	How many communist countries have this freedom? Did the students
	at Tiananmen Square have freedom of speech? Get it through your 
	head Nazism is dead and has been dead for decades. Communism is 
	still alive, people are still suffering and its phlosophy is 
	being taught as something acceptable in this country. You need 
	to wake up!

I find Mr. T--'s analysis quit literate on the whole.  My only
objection is that he fell into the trap set by Mr. Tavish of believing
that I support Communism just because I support free speech.

As for his assessment of the current political climate in America and
the world, I would say that Communism, though very much alive and
clinging to what power it has left, has been declining steadily for
many years, and very markedly in recent years, after reaching a zenith
in the 1960's.  (At that time, Mr. T--'s assessment would have been
right on.)  But today it is Fascism, although it is still small and
vying for tiny tidbits of power, that is on the rise on a worldwide
scale, including the former Soviet Union.  Nevertheless, I see no
reason not to battle both tendencies with equal fervor.

Furthermore, if we throw free speech out of the window first, we won't
need Communists to do it for us!  In fact, without free speech their
job becomes easier because censorship creates interest and lends a
false veneer of authenticity to propaganda.  Witness how silly these
home grown Nazis and racists sound when they rant about "ZOG" censorship
on the only federal government tax supported means of mass communication
available to the people -- and cutting-edge technology at that --
just because they have not made it to the cover of Time or Newsweek.
Think how effective that might be as a propaganda tool if they were
really to be censored.  The same applies to Communists.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:38 EDT 1998
Article: 184722 of alt.revisionism
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The wit and wisdom of Ian P. McKinney:

	I consider anyone born of two racial Jews to be a Jew.

We all knew that to begin with.  But Mr. McK--'s contention that Jews
regard Karl Marx as one of our own is under scrutiny here, and it
fails miserbly.

	I do find it interesting that these Jewish publications make it 
	a point to include articles on Marx. That's a real mystery if 
	neither his family nor he were Jews.

If that is truly a mystery to Mr. McK-- then he has no business
commenting on anything requiring intelletual exertion.  His own proud
proclamation that he considers Karl Marx a Jew is what calls for the
inclusion of Marx in Jewish publications.

The New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia, from which I gathered my 
information on Marx, also contains an article on Adolf Hitler.

	Also a mystery is why did so many Jews became attracted to
	the political philosophy of the alledgedly anti-Semitic Marx.

That is a simple one to answer:  for the same reason that Marx's
parents converted to Christianity!  Self hatred among the oppressed
is quite common, in America among Blacks and in Eastern Europe and
Russia among Jews.  Besides which, no Communist, Socialist, or other
leftwing party or organization ever publishes his anti-Semitic
material, for fear it will ruin the illusion of Marx as the ultimate
democrat.  In fact, I happen to own a copy of a pamphlet that is a
translation of Marx's work entitled, "A World Without Jews," which was
published by a Jewish publication house to publicize this side of Marx.
(It is a mystery to me why Mr. McK-- and his buddies cannot give Jews
credit for acts such as this that attempt to expose Marx to misinformed
Jews.)

There is one other detail.  Marxism promised everyone freedom and
democracy.  As there was no actual Marxism before the Russian Revolution
there was no way to know it would turn out so bad.  Once Stalin began
purging Jews from his government, the attraction ended for Jews, but
Mr. McK-- mysteriousy seems to have missed that detail.
 
	Should we expect that Jews will be flocking to Mr. Hitler next?

I believe if Hitler had included Jews in his definition of the so-called
"master race" that most German Jews would have followed him just as 
blindly as the rest of the nation.  Some German Jews would have joined 
their German Christian neighbors in the underground struggle against
Hitler.  Then again, I believe that the German people were the among the
worst victims of the Nazis.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:39 EDT 1998
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I wrote:

	...how could anyone believe that the Protocols are true and
	that there is a Jewish financial conspiracy without becoming
	anti-Semitic as a result?  Or does Mr. Baron think that all of 
	these people, who were "simply wrong" would say, "The Jews are 
	plotting to enslave the rest of mankind.  What a good idea!"

Alexander Baron cannot refute this simple logic, so he changes
the subject:

	Since many people believe that capitalism is a plot of the white
	racist ruling class, no. As I said, even Jews once believed 
	this.

Yet Marx himself believed Jews were part of the capitalist ruling class
and that Communism would eradicate them along with the other parasites.

	I once found a quote from Stephen Wise no less who said that if 
	there were a communist plot it was by renegade Jews. 

That is very nice, but what is Mr. B--'s point?  The original subject
was whether or not persons who believe in the so-called "Protocols"
are simple or anti-Semitic.  Mr. B-- said simple.  I pointed out that
simplicity will have to give way to hatred because the Protocols forgery
is so hateful.  And what is Mr. B--'s reply?  A quote from Stephen Wise
that only serves to further inflame the simple-minded, and seems to
indicate that Mr. Wise himself might be simple as well, might be
self hating as well, if we can trust Mr. B--'s report.

	You whine too much and too loud Mr Katz;

Since he cannot dispute my observation, Mr. B-- falls back on a familiar
tactic of trying to belittle me.  It is not my whine that bothers 
Mr. B--, but my insight.

	as I said before, when your wife is late home, don't think about
	Nazis, think about sex killers.

Mr. B-- may find it amusing to think about sex killers, but I do not.
Furthermore, I expected more from him than this rude sort of familiarity
that is nothing but a mask for his hostility.  Frankly, when my wife
is home late, I think of preparing dinner for my family.  When I read
anti-Semitic slander on the internet, I think of Nazis.

One last note:  My wife is rarely home late because she rarely goes out
because she has a chronic illness.  This, of course, is none of Mr. 
B--'s business, or anyone else's business for that matter, and I am
reluctant to mention it at all, but I thought Mr. B-- ought to know
that he overstepped the limits of polite society and struck a nerve.
I expect that from the Covingtons, McTavish's, and McKinney's on this
newsgroup, but I thought that Mr. B-- had some sense of decency and
decorum.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:39 EDT 1998
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Ian P. McKinney spews again:

	Ben Gurion was a Buddhist by religion, but he was the PM of 
	Israel. How did that happen if he wasn't a "Jew?"

I consulted the New Standard Jewish Encyclopedia and it does not mention
Buddhism in connection with Ben Gurion.  Mr. McK-- has not provided any
citation for this whopper yet.

--
Harry Katz


From Harry.Katz@mci.com Fri Jun 19 13:50:39 EDT 1998
Article: 184817 of alt.revisionism
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I wrote:

	Furthermore, "to pull up by the roots" does not mean to 
	"uproot!"  The word "uproot" in English is used to describe the 
	movement of people.  I do not know of any gardening or 
	landscaping usage for this word.  But "to pull up by the roots" 	again
means to destroy completely.

I have thought of a botanical usage for the word, "uproot."  A violent
storm will often uproot trees, but once again, the tree is destroyed
in the process.  I believe that the word was first applied to people
to convey the suffering that forced deportation brings.

--
Harry Katz



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