The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/h/huber.a/1995/huber.0495



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service            04/01           1:27 PM

Number of notes exported:    15

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Board:  NEWS BB              ^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Topic:  WORLD POLITICS       ^^^^^^^^^^^^

===============   Note     1              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/10
From:   FGWF47A    RAYMOND NICKLIN       Time:     3:08 AM

                                                            
Date: Tue, 7 MAR 1995 00:36:17 GMT                          
From: ostrovsky victor                 
Newsgroups: ab.politics, alt.bbs.lists,                     
alt.books.tom-clancy, alt.conspiracy,                       
    alt.conspiracy.area51, alt.conspiracy.jfk,              
alt.conspiracy.nhs,                                         
    alt.culture.egyptian, alt.culture.www, alt.desert-shild 
Subject: New <> home page                           
                                                            
The Mossad, Israel's secret intelligence agency.            
A new www home page by Victor Ostrovsky.                    
Look inside the dark corners of the Mossad. See it's methods
of recruitment, liaison, organization and more.             
The place to look is                                        
http:/www.phoenix.ca/mossad                                 
See you in the Mossad.                                      
Enjoy                                                       
Victor                                                      
-----------                                                 
This was on the NET from Victor Ostrovsky, "ex-Mossad       
Officer" and author on Mossad ops.                          
                                                   >>Ray<<  


===============   Reply    1 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    03/31
From:   UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Time:    12:20 PM

As I have not read Buckley's analysis of Buchanan's defense 
of Demjanjuk - (let alone count its 60,000 words), I cannot 
comment on it. However, I have never considered Buckley's   
views on Israel to be anything BUT a rehash of this         
country's gravest errors in our middle-east policies.       
                                                            
Personally,I have found the guy to be an overrated wordsmith
- whose greatest achivement is not in the thoughts he       
articulates, but the vocabulary he uses to express them in. 
                                                            
Given the recent resurgence in the use of the term          
'antisemitic', let me resubmit a question I had once asked  
another member on this board, but was never answered.       
                                                            
"Is there any position that a GENTILE can take - which might
be critical of Israel, its policies, its supporters, or     
anything related to attitudes or behavior towards Israel,   
that you would NOT attribute to 'antisemitism'.             


===============   Reply    2 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    03/31
From:   CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Time:     4:34 PM

Absolutely....I have several positions concerning Israel    
that some Jews find questionable (such as returning all the 
occupied territories and the Golan Heights) and founding an 
independent Palestine, but I don't consider myself to be an 
anti-Semite, nor do any of the Jews who know me.            


===============   Reply    3 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    03/31
From:   ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Time:     7:08 PM

Dear Mr. Casey:                                             
Your emotional indictment of Israeli justice contained more 
heat than accuracy.  Actually, the "evidence" that was      
brought before the Israeli courts during Demjanjuk's appeal 
would not have been permitted in our own court system;  if  
Demjanjuk had been tried here his appeal would have been    
denied.  Only Israel's bending over backwards saved his Nazi
neck.                                                       
A reading of the court ruling made it clear that the        
justices felt that there was overwhelming evidence that he  
was guilty, and that even if he wasn't Ivan the Terrible he 
was certainly a Nazi mass murderer.  Basically, he was freed
not because he was innocent (he clearly wasn't), but because
of what Buchanan usually calls legal technicalities.        


===============   Reply    4 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    03/31
From:   ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Time:     7:09 PM

Dear Mr. Casey:                                             
                                                            
Let me answer your question.  The answer is yes.            
                                                            
OTOH, I doubt that applies to you.                          
                                                            
Shalom,                                                     
Alan                                                        


===============   Reply    5 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    04/01
From:   UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Time:     2:30 AM

But you are not a 'Gentile'. By your own admission, although
you were raised Catholic, your lineage is Jewish.           
It is self-defeating for a Jew to call another              
'anti-semitic'. That is why anti-zionist jews like the      
Samaritans and the Naturai Karta are such a thorn in the    
side of mainstream jews - and although they are vehemently  
opposed to Israel and zionism - as they exist today, they   
can never be described as 'antisemitic'. But my question    
was,  if a Gentile could criticise any aspect of Israel or  
Jewish attitudes towards Israel, without being denounced as 
an 'antisemitic'.                                           
I maintain its a mechanism used to avoid facing scrutiny.   


===============   Reply    6 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Date:    04/01
From:   UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Time:     3:23 AM

Alan,                                                       
If you insist that the system of justice in Israel is       
equally fair to both Jews and Gentile, than you exhibit     
significantly greater chutzpah than the ordinary Jew - or   
maybe not.                                                  
                                                            
In the Demjanjuk case, you missed the crux of Buchanan's    
argument...that although he was acquitted in the Israeli    
courts BECAUSE it was under intense international scrutiny, 
his case would NEVER HAVE BEEN FILED, had it been pursued in
the United States.                                          


===============   Note     2              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/10
From:   FGWF47A    RAYMOND NICKLIN       Time:     3:19 AM

RE: Ennes                                                   
                                                            
Forwarded from James Ennes (in part)...(USS Liberty)..      
Curiously, that may soon end.  After 27 years, no one who   
has ever looked into the attack with an open mind has been  
able to accept the Israeli story.  And now even the Israelis
seem to be abandoning it.  A new book, "The Secret War      
Against the Jews," by John Loftus and Mark Aarons ADMITS    
that the attack was deliberate. They have finally abandoned 
the lame claim that it was a mistake. Now they have         
concocted a new story.  Now they claim it was NECESSARY to  
attack the Liberty in order to save Israel because,         
according to the authors, Liberty was spying on Israel for  
the benefit of the Egyptians.                               
********                                                    
For a new book about the coverup itself, I recommend THE USS
LIBERTY: DISSENTING HISTORY VS. OFFICIAL HISTORY by John    
Borne, Ph.D.  Dr. Borne won his doctorate in history last   
year with his thesis about the cover-up.  It is powerful    
reading, available from University Microfiche 1 800 521-0600
(order number 9411078) and soon to be available from        
Selective Communications (206 814-2272).                    
                                            >>Ray<<         


===============   Reply    1 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    03/31
From:   FTRB61A    RICK FARLEY           Time:    11:11 AM

  My point:  A Supreme court justice is now on my side of   
the issue concerning parallels between Nazi Germany and     
contemporary America. The list just keeps growing as more   
and more people learn the truth.                            


===============   Reply    2 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     UUVR02B    HILDA ROTHSCHILD      Date:    03/31
From:   HDDC43B    NANCY JONES           Time:     1:52 PM

Well, no disputing the weather is a little dryer, not so    
humid soooooooooooo - whatever one likes - something differe
nt for everyone.                                            
                                                            
                                   Write later              


===============   Reply    3 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    03/31
From:   UUVR02B    HILDA ROTHSCHILD      Time:     2:11 PM

I guess one who peddles trash is first to call others.      
                                                            
You are the really pitiful one.  Get a life!  We know now   
with Casey representing you and Aarvar's defense whose die  
you represent and who you are working for.  Nuff said'      


===============   Reply    4 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     FTRB61A    RICK FARLEY           Date:    03/31
From:   CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Time:     4:34 PM

Some necessary questions: what supreme court justice, and   
what is the text of the article whose headline you quote?  I
don't have access to the Seattle Times (or whatever paper   
you quoted), so why don't you e-mail me the content, or post
it, so I can judge for myself?                              


===============   Reply    5 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    03/31
From:   FTRB61A    RICK FARLEY           Time:    11:15 PM

  What Supreme Court Justice??????    Hmmmm.......          
                                                            
                                                            
  The SCJ read a book about Nazi judges and decided it hit a
bit too close to home!                                      


===============   Reply    6 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    03/31
From:   FTRB61A    RICK FARLEY           Time:    11:15 PM

  I see that you are being collectivised by Hilda.  No one  
is safe from the evils of collectivism, not even you Andrew!


===============   Note     3              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ADL/MOSSAD EXPOSED  

To:                ALL                   Date:    04/01
From:   BVNA53B    GREGG KOZUCHOWSKI     Time:    10:23 AM

Rick,                                                       
   Speaking of being 'collectivised' as you refered to Mr.  
Mathis, please backdate 1 week and read the topic...        
"Fascism/Read Rick!" and tell me whether or not yourself and
others may also find themselves becoming 'collectivised.'   
                                                            
                                                    Gregg   
  (The other note wouldn't accept any other replies so      
that's the reason for the new note)                         



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service            04/01           1:27 PM

Number of notes exported:     2

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Board:  NEWS BB              ^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Topic:  WORLD POLITICS       ^^^^^^^^^^^^

===============   Note     1              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    CASEY - A CASE.     

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/25
From:   AEFR07A    ALAN BERNSON          Time:    11:09 AM

It calls for the destruction of Israel and for the          
annhilation of it Jewish residents.                         
                                                            
                                                            
                                                            
                                                            
Portions of the Charter are as follows:                     
                                                            
Article 6: Jews who were living permanently in Palestine    
until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be         
considered Palestinians.                                    
                                                            
Comment: Arab literature marks the  so called "Zionist      
Invasion" as 1917, the date of the Balfour Declaration..    
Arab leaders state openly that they will  exterminate all   
Jews living in Israel once they "liberate" Palestine.In     
fact, the Mufti of Jerusalem, spent the war years as a      
guest of Himmler , pouring over blueprints of gas chambers  
to be built in  Tel Aviv and Haifa after the German victory.
                                                            
Article 15 : The liberation of Palestine, ...is a national  
duty to eliminate the Zionist [ read "Jewish] presence from 
Palestine.                                                  
                                                            
Article 19. The partitioning of Palestine in 1947 and the   
establishment of Israel are  null and void.                 
                                                            
Comment: The Arab armies  thumbed their noses at the UN in  
1947, and unilaterally voided the UN partition when they    
invaded the Palestinian Jewish state in  1948.              
                                                            
Article 21: The Palestinian Arab people, in expressing      
itself thru armed Palestinian revolution, rejects every     
solution that is a substitute for a complete liberation of  
Palestine [read: all land which is now Israel ] and rejects 
all plans that aim at the settlement of the Palestine issue 
or its internationalization.                                
                                                            
Article 22: ....the liberation of Palestine will destroy    
the Zionist  [read "Jewish " presence ."]                   
                                                            
                                                            
III Writer's Comment:                                       
                                                            
The PLO Covenant  declares that the objective of the        
Palestinian People is to  conquer what is now Israel and    
annhilate or expel all of its Jewish inhabitants.           
                                                            
The Palestinians are the only group of people in the World  
whose national Charter or Constitution imposes a duty on    
its citizens to destroy another people.                     
                                                            
As an agressor group, Palestinians are not "victims"        
.Israeli Jews are more than justified in using every means  
and every method to frustrate the ghoulsh plans of          
Palestinians.If Palestinians are suffering, it is because   
of the evil they are trying to accomplish.                  
                                                            
                                                            
Alan Bernson                                                
                                                            
                                                            
                                                            
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service      03/25  09:55 AM
                                                            
Board:      NEWS BB                                         
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS                                  
Subject:    CASEY - A CASE.                                 
                                                            
To:                                      Date:    3/25/95   
From:   AEFR07A    Alan                  Time:    9:48AM ET 


===============   Reply    1 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    CASEY - A CASE.     

To:     YJWA54A    JOSEPH WEISS          Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    10:23 AM

Negotiating means 'give & take', allowing for a flux in     
one's stand. The Israelis offer/make no concessions         
whatsoever. Therefore they are only going through the       
motions & rhetoric to appease the almighty US Congress. This
is hardly a 'negotiation' nor is it a peace process. Guess  
you will have to pinch yourself for dreaming.               



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service            04/01           1:28 PM

Number of notes exported:    15

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Board:  NEWS BB              ^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Topic:  WORLD POLITICS       ^^^^^^^^^^^^

===============   Note     1              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     CFGT82A    AARON DERMAN          Date:    02/26
From:   UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Time:     2:48 AM

Aaron,                                                      
the palestinians are not required to 'endear' themselves to 
the Jews for anything, any more than the Jews should have   
endeared themselves to the Nazis to avoid the Holocaust. If 
for no other reason, it was because some Jews DID try to do 
just that, that they were led like lambs to the slaughter.  
                                                            
Iam astonished at your naive suggestion that the            
Palestinians should now learn to 'endear themselves' to the 
Jews. On the contrary, they should make it as unpleasant as 
they possibly can for the Israelis to continue their        
occupation. They owe that to their own people. Anything else
will not only ensure their continued enslavement at the     
hands of the Jews, but send a signal to other renegade      
nations around the world, that if sufficient pressure is    
exerted upon a people, they can be eventually subdued.      
                                                            
It is the OPPOSITE message that we as Americans should      
ensure that the world will hear. We should make it clear    
that aggression, and occupation will NOT be tolerated at any
price - no matter WHO the perpetrators might be. EVEN if    
they be Jews .... unless you believe that Jews merit a      
special dispensation that exempts them from such resistance,
or retaliation, regardless of their own actions.            


===============   Reply    1 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    10:59 AM

And who were displaced by the very institution of the state 
of israel??                                                 
Chicken or the egg again.                                   


===============   Reply    2 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    11:19 AM

Casey:                                                      
                                                            
" doom our children to live in a world where justice is     
meted out not on the basis of right or wrong,  but by       
selective enforcement of laws to benefit a selected segment 
of society."                                                
                                                            
Isn't this precisely what the likes of Jewish legislation & 
ACLU litigation have already done here??                    


===============   Note     2              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/20
From:   NGNS40D    JOSH KEIDAN           Time:     8:07 PM

   Okay by the logic of the last note a lot in the the world
should change. Here are some suggestions I have:            
1. The United States should return all its land to the      
Mexicans and Native Americans                               
2. France should find the descendents of the visagoths and  
return all the land to them                                 
  Pretty dumb eh? Listen The jews have repeatedly offerd    
peace to the Arabs who live Gaza and the west bank and each 
time the peace ovetures have been turned down. Furthermore  
the arabs in the west bank and gaza have said repeatedly    
thta they will take over all of Israel if they get achance. 
Obviously these guys just love the idea of peace.           
It is called reality buddy . Either join it or shut up.     
Thanks.                                                     
      :)                                                    


===============   Reply    1 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     YJWA54A    JOSEPH WEISS          Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    10:23 AM

That really hurts that I'm an insult to AArdvarks           
everywhere. That's also a generalized statement. SNIFF...   
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal      
labotomy.                                                   


===============   Reply    2 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    10:57 AM

To partake of the perks, one must arise early & go to the   
Synagogue at 6:00 am each day. Late sleepers miss out.      


===============   Note     3              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/26
From:   AEFR07A    ALAN BERNSON          Time:     9:00 AM

                                                            
I.Some quotes from Arab Leaders:                            
                                                            
"This will be a war of extermination and a momentous        
massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian         
massacres and the Crusades. " Arab League Sec. Gen Azzam    
Pasha- May 15, 1948, the day five Arab armies invaded the   
new state of Israel.                                        
                                                            
                                                            
" I declare a holy war, my Moslem brothers ! Murder Jews!   
Murder them all "                                           
                                                            
                                                            
Haj Amin  Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem 1948                 
                                                            
                                                            
"I announce from here, on behalf of the United Arab         
Republic people, that this time we will exterminate         
Israel." Abdel Gamal Nasser, Speech at Alexandria, July 26, 
1959.                                                       
                                                            
                                                            
"The existence of Israel is an error which must be          
rectified. This is our our opportunity to wipe out the      
ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is     
clear-- to wipe Israel of the Map." President Abdel Raman   
Aref, of Iraq, May 31, 1967                                 
                                                            
                                                            
"The goal of our struggle is the end of Israel and there    
can be no compromise." Yasser Arafat, the Washington Post,  
March 29, 1970                                              
                                                            
                                                            
The non-Arab people in the world who sympathize with        
Palestinians do so only because they believe that Jews, be  
they in Israel or anywhere else, should be  destroyed.      
                                                            
                                                            
"The struggle with the Zionist enemy is not a struggle      
about Israel's borders but about Israel's existence . We    
will never agree  to anything less than the return of all   
our land and the establishment of an independent state."    
Bassam Abu  Sharif, PLO spokesman, quoted  by Kuwait News   
Agency, May 31 1986                                         
                                                            
                                                            
"The  establishment of an independent Palestinian state on  
the West Bank and the Gaza Strip does not contradict our    
ultimate strategic aim, which is the establishment of a     
democratic state in the entire territory of Palestine, but  
rather is a step in that direction." Abu Iyad, PLO          
executive in interview with Al-Safir, Lebanon, Jan. 25,     
1988.                                                       
                                                            
                                                            
                                                            
                                                            
                                                            
                                                            
II. The PLO Charter                                         
                                                            
The foregoing  attitudes were the basis for the PLO Charter 
which  was written in 1964, three years before the  June    
1967 war..In May of 1967, Arab leaders declared they would  
invade and destroy Israel and ordered UN Peacekeeping       
forces out of  the area in preprartion for  their announced 
invasion.                                                   
                                                            
Arabs danced in the streets in anticipation of  the         
promised massacre and  Arab radio broadcasts in Hebrew      


===============   Reply    1 of Note    3 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    11:19 AM

And with time has come peace with Egypt. But people like you
continue to sow the seeds of the past & wish Israel would   
once again vanquish Egypt.                                  


===============   Note     4              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/26
From:   AEFR07A    ALAN BERNSON          Time:     9:00 AM

told the Jews to prepare for death..To frustrate Arab       
plans, although surrounded and outnumbered by Arab armies   
equipped by Russia to the hilt, the Jews attacked and in 6  
days, destroyed five invading Arab armies and occupied what 
is now the so called "territories"..                        
                                                            
The PLO Charter is the National Constitution of             
Palestinian Arabs. and it must be remembered that it was    
written in 1964, three years before the 1967 war when there 
 were no "occupied territories.."                           
                                                            
The charter  never been changed and if it were changed, it  
would be changed only for the purpose of gaining some bases 
from which to carry out the destruction of Israel.          
                                                            
It calls for the destruction of Israel and for the          
annhilation of it Jewish residents.                         
                                                            
Portions of the Charter are as follows:                     
                                                            
Article 6: Jews who were living permanently in Palestine    
until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be         
considered Palestinians.                                    
                                                            
Comment: Arab literature marks the  so called "Zionist      
Invasion" as 1917, the date of the Balfour Declaration..    
Arab leaders state openly that they will  exterminate all   
Jews living in Israel once they "liberate" Palestine.In     
fact, the Mufti of Jerusalem, spent the war years as a      
guest of Himmler , pouring over blueprints of gas chambers  
to be built in  Tel Aviv and Haifa after the German victory.
                                                            
Article 15 : The liberation of Palestine, ...is a national  
duty to eliminate the Zionist [ read "Jewish] presence from 
Palestine.                                                  
                                                            
Article 19. The partitioning of Palestine in 1947 and the   
establishment of Israel are  null and void.                 
                                                            
Comment: The Arab armies  thumbed their noses at the UN in  
1947, and unilaterally voided the UN partition when they    
invaded the Palestinian Jewish state in  1948.              
                                                            
Article 21: The Palestinian Arab people, in expressing      
itself thru armed Palestinian revolution, rejects every     
solution that is a substitute for a complete liberation of  
Palestine [read: all land which is now Israel ] and rejects 
all plans that aim at the settlement of the Palestine issue 
or its internationalization.                                
                                                            
Article 22: ....the liberation of Palestine will destroy    
the Zionist  [read "Jewish " presence ."]                   
                                                            
                                                            
III Writer's Comment:                                       
                                                            
The PLO Covenant  declares that the objective of the        
Palestinian People is to  conquer what is now Israel and    
annhilate or expel all of its Jewish inhabitants.           
                                                            
The Palestinians are the only group of people in the World  
whose national Charter or Constitution imposes a duty on    
its citizens to destroy another people.                     
                                                            
As an agressor group, Palestinians are not "victims"        
.Israeli Jews are more than justified in using every means  
and every method to frustrate the ghoulsh plans of          
Palestinians.If Palestinians are suffering, it is because   
of the evil they are trying to accomplish.                  
                                                            
                                                            
Alan Bernson                                                


===============   Reply    1 of Note    4 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    11:31 AM

Your attitude is 'typical' of that which continues to bring 
ridicule & scorn on your people. YOu insist that no one     
consider negotiations with someone who is anti-Israel. If   
the world handled affairs this way, there would be no one   
left. People OTHER than Jews negotiate  in good faith even  
with sworn enemies, and WALLA, progress is made. Your       
one-sided closing of the door prior to any dialogue sustains
the pains Jews will endure for milleniums to come.          


===============   Reply    2 of Note    4 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    11:31 AM

Andy's statement is 'typically' arrogant. With one sentence 
he can alienate 2/3's of the world's population.            
                                                            
Only with dialogue can these matters be resolved. As an     
after-thought, had the Pope's talks with the PLO lead to a  
positive retreat of their stand, would andy be still        
anti-Christian??                                            
                                                            
Arrogance will be the destruction of these people!          


===============   Reply    3 of Note    4 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    11:32 AM

Seems to be an inverse correlation here between the         
Palestinian numbers and the holocaust numbers.              
                                                            
HHHmmmmmmm.......                                           
                                                            
Liars can sure figure.                                      


===============   Reply    4 of Note    4 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    11:36 AM

We still teach this today. Young minds need provocative     
messages to instill a philosophy aggressive enough to       
counter the liberal agenda in the media & on the University 
campuses.                                                   


===============   Reply    5 of Note    4 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    11:54 AM

He should have done this. He should have done that. You     
require everyone to sign the Israeli Constitution befor they
are allowed to talk to her enemies on any level on any      
topic, even on her behalf.                                  
                                                            
Your arrogance will be your downfall.                       


===============   Reply    6 of Note    4 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JEW FREE PALISTINE? 

To:     EEGG87A    A HUBER               Date:    04/01
From:   CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Time:     1:18 PM

I'm not sure which of my notes you're replying to here;     
could be more specific with respect to reply# and note#?    
                                                            
P.S. I'm not trying to be cute; I'm serious.                



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service            04/01           1:28 PM

Number of notes exported:    20

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Board:  NEWS BB              ^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Topic:  WORLD POLITICS       ^^^^^^^^^^^^

===============   Note     1              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/27
From:   CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Time:     8:04 AM

This is an open note to anyone who wishes to reply, though I
am specifically addressing V. Casey and A. Huber with my    
main point.                                                 
                                                            
Mr. Casey has frequently made the assertion that American   
Jews (and perhaps Jews worldwide) are subject to a dual     
allegiance (to their own country of residence and to Israel)
that brings their loyalty to the U.S. into question.  Mr    
Huber has even suggested that such points of view are       
treasonous (again, I'll find the note where he says this as 
proof).                                                     
                                               >>>>         
I'd like to suggest my own personal explanation for the     
special significance of the state of Israel for America's   
(and the world's) Jews, and that it this: We live in a      
volatile world, where political climates often change       
quickly.  The Jews are perhaps the most hated group in the  
history of the world, and when economies go bad, they are   
almost always made the scapegoats.  Therefore, Jews look to 
Israel as a safe haven, should they ever need one.  There   
they know they can have their religion and culture protected
by the only government in the world that looks out for them 
first and foremost.                                         
                                                    >>>>>   
Some, I believe, would like to say that this feeling is     
paranoid, especially in the U.S., where Jews are very well  
assimilated, very successful, and generally speaking, suffer
as little anti-Semitism as any society in history has had to
offer them.  However, as my colleague and debating opponent 
Rick Farley likes to point out, fascism is a possibility    
anywhere, and on this point I agree with him.  IT CAN HAPPEN
HERE.  And while that possibility still exists, and while   
there are those people in the world, some powerful          
(Zhirinovsky comes to mind), who shout "six million more," a
safe haven for Jews in the form of the state of Israel must 
continue to receive the support of Jews from all nations,>> 
as well as sympathetic goyim.  About the only aspect of this
issue that I find difficulty with is the concept of dual    
citizenship between the U.S. and Israel.  It seems to me    
that Jews can either: a) maintain U.S. citizen and invoke   
Israel's law of Return if they choose to go to Israel; or b)
maintain Israeli citizenship and live here as legal aliens  
with green cards, thereby also allowing them the freedom of 
mobility to return to Israel should the heat turn up.       
                                                            
On the other hand, the U.S. also extends dual citizenship   
rights to Canadian-Americans, but I don't hear anyone       
screaming about this.  Anti-semitism, I guess.  Sholom.     


===============   Reply    1 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     YJWA54A    JOSEPH WEISS          Date:    03/31
From:   UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Time:    12:36 PM

You insist that I compare the amount of aid we send to      
Israel to the amount of money we spend on ourselves, instead
of comparing it with the amount we spend on OTHER foreign   
countries. I wonder why. Are you guys that arrogant, that   
you consider it your RIGHT to a share of OUR resources?     
Get this straight. The US is ENTITLED to spend all of its   
budget upon itself if it so chooses. There is no requirement
for us to spend a dime on Israel. The fact that it gets 35% 
of what we send to the rest of the world should be a cause  
for celebration among its supporters - not one that says    
"but we only get 0.002% of your total budget, whine whine". 
Besides,if 90% of the aid to israel is spent in the US      
then maybe we should spend 90% of that aid directly in the  
US, in the first place. If it comes back from Israel, the   
chances of it going to funnel pro-Israel causes are very    
high. In fact, it would be contrary to the spirit of the    
aid, for Americans to provide the money to Israel so that a 
portion of it could be spent to convince us to send MORE    
money to Israel.... much like setting up a beggar on the    
street corner with a new begging bowl, so he can accost us  
again the next day, and the day after, and the day after.   


===============   Reply    2 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    03/31
From:   BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Time:     1:42 PM

     Mr. Casey should compare the aid to Israel with the    
amount spent on defense every year in the United States. In 
fact, I think the aid to Israel should be considered part of
the defense spending here.                                  
   By the way, "cowtow" is spelled, "kow-tow."  As long as  
we are talking about aid, how about the latest American     
effort to buy off North Korea's atomic program?  This is    
something about which Mr.Casey is VERY well informed. Aren't
you, Mr. Casey?                                             
   Regarding your assertion that American Jewish fear of    
recurring anti-Semitism is mere paranoia, I think we both   
know this to be incorrect, don't we?  Red Azalea            


===============   Reply    3 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    03/31
From:   ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Time:     7:29 PM

Dear Mr. Casey:                                             
                                                            
Don't you consider it a bit of a stretch to call the pope's 
meeting with Yassir Arafat a matter of principle?           
                                                            
Shalom,                                                     
Alan                                                        


===============   Reply    4 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    03/31
From:   ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Time:     7:29 PM

Dear Mr. Casey:                                             
                                                            
I think you are confusing Jews and Israelis.                
                                                            
Most Jews are not Israelis.  Many Israelis are not Jews.    
Indeed, many Israelis are Arabs, most of whom are Muslim or 
Christian.                                                  
                                                            
BTW, how do you feel about Egypt, which generally undermines
our foreign policy, getting nearly as much foreign aid from 
us from Israel, which is by far our most reliable supporter?


===============   Reply    5 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Date:    03/31
From:   ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Time:     7:29 PM

Good point, John.                                           
                                                            
Many of the same vigorous opponents of foreign aid in       
general strongly support our assistance to Israel,          
considering it a bargain.  For example, Jesse Helms doesn't 
think it shoud be in our foreign aid budget;  he thinks most
of it belongs in our defense budget.                        


===============   Reply    6 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Date:    03/31
From:   GNCE52A    SAIED FAZEL           Time:     8:27 PM

John - This is in response to your note posted to CASEY -   
Perhaps US should stop sending Israel the military aid and  
concentrate on Turkey.  Since Turkey proved to be the best  
ally in the region when real trouble started.  Israel was   
told to stay in its cage away from the real show.  Even     
today Turkey is providing the strategic help that we need to
keep Sadam in check.  Israel is not as important in the     
region as you think.  As far as US interests go they fought 
to keep Kuwait and Saudi Arabia independent.  Were as for   
Israel, we never did that.  America finds them far more     
important than Israel.  They laid their life down for Saudi 
Arabia  not Israel.                                         


===============   Reply    7 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    11:54 AM

Interesting. To quote you, " The Jews are perhaps the most  
hated group in the history of the world.."                  
                                                            
I posted a similar quote from a Rabbi on a Sunday morning TV
show and your buddies here enveloped me with venemous       
denial!                                                     
                                                            
One question, though, "Why?"                                


===============   Reply    8 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    12:06 PM

Mr. Casey, morality is something which inherently evades    
these people. And I agree their persecution is directly     
proportional to their attitude toward others.               
Perhaps they gloat in it. Perhaps the syndrome gives them a 
feeling of empowerment. Either way, it will surely smother  
them.                                                       


===============   Reply    9 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     YJWA54A    JOSEPH WEISS          Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    12:12 PM

Repeat, figures don't lie, but liars can figure. You now    
assail V's figures. He stated the 35% as a percentage of our
Foreign Aid, not as a percentage of our National Budget!!   


===============   Reply   10 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     EEGG87A    A HUBER               Date:    04/01
From:   BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Time:    12:41 PM

Mr. Huber, I am surprised that the Prodigy police let this  
one slip through their net!                                 
  Really, I haven't observed a great deal of morality among 
Americans of any nationality, especially government         
employees.  Ha!  Ha!                                        
  Down with running dogs!!!!                                
                                                            
                           Red Azalea                       


===============   Note     2              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/28
From:   BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Time:     1:21 PM

This is all very nice but I believe the American government 
considers Jews to be potential traitors.  I am uniquely     
qualified to speak on this, believe me.  If one looks at    
names such as Jonathon Pollard, and the Rosenbergs from a,  
shall we say, DoD veiwpoint, one might well exclude Jews    
from potenially damaging positions, such as nuclear energy. 
Along the same token, the US is the only country in the     
world to have used the atomic bomb against another country  
(Japan), which makes me wonder how safe a haven Israel would
be if they should ever become an enemy of the US.           
  And don't kid yourselves into thinking that American Jews 
have got it better than Jews in other parts of the world,>> 
or that this glorious state of affairs can last.  I propose 
that the American Jewish community  will become the         
scapegoat for all of the countries ills as the economy here 
deteriorates more and more.                                 
   History has shown this to be so.  I offer Weimar Germany 
as an example, where the National Socialists rose to power  
because the people didn't have enough to eat.  Of course the
United States at the moment is in far better shape than     
Weimar Germany (pre-WWII German republic) but this can      
change.  When more Americans are out of work and starving,  
the government will blame Jews to deflect attention from    
their own incompetence.                                     


===============   Reply    1 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     GWHC42A    JEFFREY KRANTZ        Date:    03/31
From:   BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Time:     1:52 PM

I know Oppenheimer wasn't Jewish.  Sorry about the dates,   
but the Rosenberg murder is a matter of public record.      
I also know Dr. Von Braun was the head of the Nazi rocketry 
program who came to work for the Americans after the war.   
  The only thing I know about Pollard was that he spied on  
America for Israel, and he got a very stiff sentence for    
spying for a friendly government. As with the Rosenbergs,the
important thing is that he is a Jew.  I propose that because
of Pollard, the American government now considers Jews to be
potential security risks because of possible dual loyalties.
 I neither condemn nor endorse this viewpoint;  I mean it as
a warning to American Jews.      Red Azaelea                


===============   Reply    2 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    12:32 PM

There is a great deal of truth in what you say. The jews    
were forclosing on the farms, businesses and homes of the   
Germans. Not much of a push was need for a young military   
man to garnish popular support. In most Western,            
Southwestern and Northeastern US newspapers TODAY, the      
number of pages of forclosures approaches 7 to 10 per week. 
Today the mortgagees are for the most part large            
institutions, but guess who shows up at the Sheriff's Sales 
and for the stroke of a pen acquires one's entire life's    
equity??                                                    
You and V are both correct.                                 
The situation is hiing to a crescendo.                      


===============   Reply    3 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    12:32 PM

Realistically, why should one not be branded a security risk
when anything they know subsequently becomes the property of
a foreign government.??                                     


===============   Reply    4 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     UTPJ62A    V CASEY               Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    12:32 PM

There is a well known Rabbi at an East Coast Yeshiva who    
allegedly has a weekly newsletter (as do I) who calls for   
all Jews to keep their assets in liquid form and to have a  
valid & current passport so they can flee to Israel once    
their punishment of America is completed. I will try to find
his name & state in my files. Probably NJ or NY.            
Gads, why didn't I subscribe to it when I read the article  
on him???                                                   


===============   Reply    5 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    12:41 PM

By your analogy, you admit that the jews are punishing      
America and White Europeans ( and doing so at the expense of
the African Americans). What, really, so you think the FINAL
outcome is likely to be??                                   
The Very Reverend Farakhan will soon be preaching to the    
'man in the street' rather to His presently limited         
audience. What do you think that will lead to??             
The liberal jewish influence in the Universities s being    
replaced by scores of Professors of African Heritage. What  
do you think this will lead to??                            
Is YOUR passport ready??                                    


===============   Reply    6 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Date:    04/01
From:   EEGG87A    A HUBER               Time:    12:41 PM

jews have always been security risks, dating back hundreds  
of years. Some great quotes go back to Benjamine Franklin!! 
And perhaps this is why 'liberals' now are including        
Franklin in their Revisionism.                              


===============   Reply    7 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     EEGG87A    A HUBER               Date:    04/01
From:   BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Time:    12:51 PM

It might surprise you to know I quite agree.  However, if   
one is given a choice between a fair-haired boy who has     
something to sell to an unstable government (I'm going to be
coy and say 'you-know-who') who should have been denied a   
clearance (speaking strictly hypothetically of course) and a
Jew who was never allowed to learn anything important, let  
alone saleable, naturally the power behind the throne would 
choose the Jew.  As in Alfred Dreyfuss.  Of course that is  
who I am talking about!  Did you think I meant someone else?
Anyway, the problem with false accusation is that the real  
traitor walks around a free man, the government even rewards
him for his treason!  Down with running dogs!  Red Azalea   


===============   Reply    8 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    JUSTIFYING ISRAEL   

To:     EEGG87A    A HUBER               Date:    04/01
From:   BHAZ05A    JOHN DEVON            Time:    12:51 PM

Yeah, I'd like to read this one too.  Shouldn't be too hard 
to find in a large database such as, er, uh, Prodigy.       
Just out of curiosity, how liquid is liquid?  Are we talking
gold and silver coins here, bank accounts, stashes of cash, 
what?  Besides how safe a haven is Israel, if the United    
states could destroy it with the touch of a button?         
  Down with running dogs, bark, bark, woof, etc.            
                                                            
                            Red Azalea                      
                                                            
P.S. Seems to me the appearance of the article might be     
enough reason to conduct illegal seizures of Jewish assets..



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service            04/01           1:29 PM

Number of notes exported:     5

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Board:  NEWS BB              ^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Topic:  WORLD POLITICS       ^^^^^^^^^^^^

===============   Note     1              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ON PALESTINE        

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/29
From:   CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Time:     0:38 AM

Generally, the notes that I write on this BB are pro-Israel 
AND pro-Palestine.  That is, I support the creation of an   
independent Arab state of Palestine made up of Gaza the West
Bank, and perhaps parts of the other neighboring countries, 
if they are so willing to donate such land.                 
                                                            
However, lately many pro-Israel members have been making the
assertion that Arabs already control over 3/4 of Palestine  
and therefore deserve no more land.  I can only assume that 
they speak of Jordan as being part of Palestine.  With this 
note, I hope to show that Jordan and Palestine are NOT one  
and the same.                                    >>>>>      
(most of the following information comes from the online    
Encyclopedia and can be validated there.)                   
                                                            
The distinction between Palestine and Jordan dates from the 
defeat of the Turks by the British in WWI.  After the war,  
the League of Nations (a precursor to today's UN), enacted a
Mandate of Palestine, which did, in fact, include           
Transjordan (present-day Jordan).  HOWEVER, Transjordan was 
subsequently treated differently from the rest of           
Palestine--that is to say, Palestine west of the Jordan     
river--and was established as an independent kingdom in 1921
under the kingship of Abdullah I, the grandfather of >>>    
Jordan's present King Hussein.  By 1946, British ties were  
formally ended and the Hashemite Kindgom of Transjordan     
(later simply Jordan) was created.                          
                                                            
This is an extremely important point as relates to our      
subject at hand.  The Arabs who then (as now) made up the   
citizenry of Jordan are neither ethnically nor              
linguistically similar to the Arabs of present day Israel   
and the occupied Territories.  The Hashemites are bedouins  
and generally nomadic, the Palestinians are more urbanized  
and therefore more literate and educated.  The Jordanians   
are almost uniformly Sunni Muslim, whereas the >>>>>>>>     
Palestinians are a mixture of Sunni and Shi'ah Muslims, as  
well as Christians and Druzes.  Finally, the Palestinians   
and Jordanians speak different dialects of Arabic which, in 
many cases, are mutually indistinguishable.                 
                                                            
But back to the history lesson and encyclopedic evidence.   
The article entitled "PALESTINE" goes even further in       
distinguishing the Palestine that was partitioned into Arab 
and Jewish states and Transjordan as separate entities (see 
first page of subsection entitled "British Occupation.")    
Furthermore, this article makes clear that the 1947         
partition of Palestine, which proceeded the creation of >>> 
Jordan, meant to divide into Jewish and Arab states ONLY THE
LAND WEST OF THE JORDAN RIVER.                              
                                                            
Now, as we all know, Israel accepted the partition plan and 
the Palestinians and neighboring nations (Jordan included)  
rejected it.  War ensued, driving out between 400,000 and   
800,000 Palestinians, most of whom settled in Jordan.  This 
migration, coupled with a similarly large migration after   
the six-day war of 1967 has left Jordan with a Palestinian  
majority.  However, this does not change the fact that the  
country of Jordan is not the land that was originally       
designated as homeland for Palestinian Arabs who, as I have>
already pointed out, are not the same as Hashemite-Jordanian
Arabs.  Therefore, to assert that "Arabs already control    
over 3/4 of Palestine and therefore should be returned none 
of the lands taken in war by Israel," is true in one sense, 
that being that both Jordanians and Palestinians are Arabs, 
but untrue in that Israel's primary territorial dispute is  
with the Palestinians and NOT the Jordanians.  Furthermore, 
people with the "3/4" point of view should also realize that
if Jordan were to become a Palestinian state, it would pose 
a much larger security state than today's Hashemite Kingdom,
which has concluded a peace treaty with Israel and has      
opened its borders.    (CONTINUED IN NOTE 2)                


===============   Reply    1 of Note    1 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ON PALESTINE        

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    03/31
From:   ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Time:     7:43 PM

The fact that the Jews accepted the partition of Palestine  
does not negate the fact that Jordan is part of Palestine.  
It only shows how willing the Jews were to compromise.      
                                                            
Both Jordan and the PLO have acknowledged that Jordan is    
part of Palestine;  indeed, the PLO covenant specifically   
recognizes that.                                            


===============   Note     2              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ON PALESTINE        

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/29
From:   CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Time:     1:01 AM

                                     
                                                            
The solution to the problem, I believe, therefore lies in   
returning what was originally partitioned to the Palestinian
Arabs to them.  I don't suggest doing this in a suicidal    
manner and certainly not while a state of war still exists. 
However, in the face of a peace treaty, Israel, if she      
wishes to remain a member of the community of nations, must 
cede territory taken in the past wars.                      
                                                            
However, actions such as these--indeed most overtures toward
peace are hampered by such language used by members such as>
calling the West Bank (or Arab Palestine) Judea and Samaria.
 This practice of calling the West Bank by its Biblical     
names became popular under Likud governments as a way of    
saying, "Hey, it was ours all those years ago, why shouldn't
it be now?"  The answer is, "Because that's not what the UN 
gave you."  There are, of course, other Biblical arguments  
made to support Israeli claims over the west Bank, but as   
the Bible is not the holy book of all, or even most, of the 
people of the world, it has zero significance in the        
geopolitical arena.                                         
                                                            
The bottom line is that if Israel wishes to keep playing >> 
by her own rules, and against the wishes of the UN, then she
might as well withdraw from the UN, try to rule herself by  
the Torah and see how far that gets her.  I humbly suggest  
that they consider the resolutions made concerning the      
Palestinian question (disregarding, of course, any          
Waldheim-esque resolutions, most of which have been revoked 
anyway) and continue to make strides towards peace.  This   
means paving the way for an independent Arab State of       
Palestine, not Israeli provinces of Judea and Samaria.      
                                                            
In response, the Palestinians must cease all terrorism      
against Israel immediately if they really want the Israelis>
to come to the peace table willing to negotiate.  It doesn't
help the position of the Palestinians to blow up busses     
filled with innocent people when their future as a nation   
lies on the line.  Arafat claims that he is not responsible,
and I tend to believe him, but he must back up words with:  
1) stronger words--unconditionally condemn these actions as 
he has NEVER done before; 2) ACTION: He must use his        
Palestinian police force, and perhaps the help of the       
Mossad, to round up the members of Hamas and Islamic Jihad  
who are responsible for these acts.  Then, and only then,   
can both sides make the appropriate gestures of good faith  
required to make a true and lasting peace.  You can't >>>>  
extend an olive brance with a gun in the other.  Know what I
mean?                                                       
                                                            
Replies, as always, are welcome and anticipated.            
                                                            
Andrew                                                      
"Two peoples, two nations, one future."                     


===============   Reply    1 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ON PALESTINE        

To:     CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Date:    03/31
From:   ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Time:     7:43 PM

When the Arabs rejected the UN Partition Plan, they lost the
right to use it as a basis for any claims.                  
                                                            
It is now 1995, not 1948.  The fact that the bulk of the    
population of Judea, Samaria and Gaza is Arab means that, as
a practical matter, if the Arabs will ever get serious about
negotiating a peaceful settlement, it would make sense to   
divide the area with the bulk of those areas having Arab    
control.                                                    
                                                            
However, the UN Partition Plan is totally irrelevant.       


===============   Reply    2 of Note    2 =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    ON PALESTINE        

To:     ULRF78A    ALAN STEIN            Date:    03/31
From:   CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Time:    11:14 PM

In the interest of economy, I'll address your two notes     
simultaneously.                                             
                                                            
In regard to the first, I myself acknowledged that Jordan is
part of Palestine; I merely pointed out that it was NOT     
considered part of the land to be partitioned into Jewish   
and Arab states.                                            
                                                            
As for your second point, the Arab nations surrounding      
Israel attacked, but did the Palestinians themselves attack 
to any large degree?  No.  They had no unified army or      
leadership for that matter.  In fact, Jordan annexed the >>>
West Bank in 1950, showing that the Palestinians themselves 
were never really given a chance to accept or reject the    
partition plan without the pressures of their neighbors.    
Even if they would have outright rejected the partition (and
it's fairly certain they would have), it does not, under the
terms of the UN, render the partition null and void, just as
Israel's prior refusal to adhere to UN Resolution 242 did   
not render that null and void.                              
                                                            
A final point: whenever I hear an Israeli or a politically  
conservative Jew refer to the West Bank as "Judea and       
Samaria," the first question that comes to my mind is:>>>   
would Israel have taken a grab at that land at some point   
anyway, given the fact that they insist on calling it by its
ancient Hebrew names?                                       



PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service            04/01           1:29 PM

Number of notes exported:     1

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Board:  NEWS BB              ^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Topic:  WORLD POLITICS       ^^^^^^^^^^^^

===============   Note     1              =================

Board:      NEWS BB           
Topic:      WORLD POLITICS      
Subject:    OPEN LETTER TO HILDA

To:                ALL                   Date:    03/31
From:   CBKG24B    ANDREW MATHIS         Time:    10:04 AM

Hilda,                                                      
                                                            
I extend an olive branch to you in regards to our online    
grudge match.  Your people and my ancestors did not fight to
survive for 5000 years so that we could tear each other to  
pieces in this day and age.  We both believe in a secure    
Israel, just through different means.  I humbly submit that 
we agree to disagree, otherwise we give the true haters of  
this board an opening to inject their own filth.            
                                                            
At your request, I will have any other notes posted to you  
on this date removed.  I sincerely hope you will accept >>> 
my offering of peace.  If not, then let's just agree to     
ignore one another from now on.                             
                                                            
Sholom,                                                     
Andrew                                                      



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