The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:10:58 EDT 2001
Article: 919009 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic vs Scandinavian
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:47:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <1evkjqr.1p2u2vcirc7wgN%serse@diku.dk>, Per Erik Ronne
 wrote:

> Peter Z. Zsombolyay  wrote:
> 
> > The Nordic countries are: Russia, the Baltic Countries (Estonia,
> > Lithuania and Latvia) and the Scandinavian countries (which INcludes
> > Finland).
> 
> Nope. The Nordic countries are those countries who are members of the
> Nordic Council. The countries that were all part of the medieval Kalmar
> Union and which share a common history and which are all Lutheran.
> 
> The Scandinavian countries are Denmark, Norway and Sweden only [and some
> Swedes will exclude Denmark since Scania was conquered by the Swedes].

Why don't we just accept that English usage is somewhat looser than
usage in the Nordic countries?

In the English-speaking world Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland , and
Iceland are all regarded as Scandinavian countries. Universities that
have departments of Scandinavian studies, department stores that have
Scandinavian theme weeks, and popular consciousness groups all five
countreis together. This concept is underscored and nourished by the
American Scandinavian Foundation which supports interest and study of
the culture of all five nations.

In the geographical sense only Norway and Sweden are Scandinavian
countries, Denmark being the odd man out. 

With respect to form of government, Norway, Sweden, and Denmark, all
three ancient constitutional monarchies are typically Scandinavian,
while Iceland and Finland, both republics, are modern upstarts, both
are breakaways from the monarchal nucleus. 

In the linguistic sense all five are Scandinavian: Norwegian,
Icelandic, Swedish, and Danish are all members of the Scandinavian
branch of the Germanic linguistic family, and all five countries have
one of these languages as their offical (or co-offial in the case of
Finland) language. Finnish, although of non-Germanic and
non-Indo-European origin, also has a strong claim to being a
Scandinavian language: Finnish and related Sami (or Lappish) were
indigenous to a large area of Scandinavia before the northward spread
of Germanic speech. A large area of what are now Sweden and Norway show
clear evidence that Sami and/or Finnish were spoken there before the
introduction of Germanic speech.

In the cultural sense all five countries have a long history of intense
cultural contact and interaction. Iceland was originally colonized from
Norway and became a colony of Denmark. Finland was partially colonized
>from Sweden, and was an integral part of the Swedish realm for 800
years. Norway has a history of having been a part of both Denmark and
Sweden, while the geographical area of all five present countries has a
history of being united as a single political entity during the Union
of Kalmar.

Thus, being Scandinavian is not a simple matter of yes or no; it is a
matter of being more or less, or nuclear or peripheral. Here are some
of the parameters that appear to unite and differentiate the
Scandinavian/Nordic countries:


                   Iceland    Denmark     Norway     Sweden     Finland

Geography             -          -           +          +          -
Form of government    -          +           +          +          -
Language              +          +           +          +          ±
History               +          +           +          +          +
Colonizer             -          +           +          +          -
Colony                +          -           +          -          +
Finnic substratum     -          -           +          +          +
Lutheran dominance    +          +           +          +          +
Cross flag            +          +           +          +          +
German influence      -          +           ±          ±          ±
Russian influence     -          -           ±          +          +
American influence    +          +           +          +          +
French influence      -          -           -          +          ±
British influence     +          +           +          +          +
Sami minority         -          -           +          +          +
Finnish minority      -          -           +          +          0
Swedish minority      -          -           -          0          +
German minority       -          +           -          -          -
Russian minority      -          -           -          -          +
Binge drinkers        +          -           +          +          +
High suicide rate     -          +           -          +          +


---------

Regards,
Eugnee Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:10:58 EDT 2001
Article: 919083 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving
Supersedes: <280620011059409173%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:57:05 +0300
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In article <993666325.8075.0.nnrp-10.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>, Paris
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> news:270620011901502859%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> 
> > > Hitler did not know about a plan of extermination of the
> > > Jews because his plan was expulsion, not mass murder.
> 
> You seem to be an honest and studious person.
> 
[snip]

> >
> > Historical records indicate that some time during the summer of 1941
> > Hitler issued vague orders to his underlings,
> 
> Please could you state where you get this?

1. Hoess's autobiography:

"In the summer of 1941, I cannot remember the exact date, I was
suddenly summoned to the Reichsführer SS, directly by his adjutant's
office. Contrary to his usual custom, Himmler received me without his
adjutant being present and said in effect:

"The Führer has ordered that the Jewish question be solved once and
for all and that we, the SS, are to implement that order....The Jews
are the sworn enemies of the German people and must be eradicated.
Every Jew that we can lay our hands on is to be destroyed now during
the war, without exception. If we cannot now obliterate the biological
basis of Jewry, the Jews will one day destroy us."

R. Hoess. _Commandant of Auschwitz_. London: Phoenix Press. 2000
[1959]. Pg. 183.


2. Evidence presented at various war-crime trials

SS-Obersturtmbannführer Dr. Martin Sandberger, commander of EK 1a:

"I myself was present during the discussions in the palais Prinz
Albrecht in Berlin and during the speech by Streckenbach when the
well-known Führer  order was announced."

"Streckenbach personally informed me about the Führer order, which said
that, in order to secure the Eastern territory permanently, all Jews,
Gypsies, and communist functionaries were to be eliminated, together
with all other elements who might endanger society."

According to Sandberger, the work of an EK commander consisted of four
elements:

[Establishing] a good relationship with the army as far as possible;
second a strict and energetic leadership of the commandos under his
command; third, as quick and thorough an execution of an order as
possible, in particular concerning the Jews; and fourth, as part of this
Führer order, a bitter fight against communism.

Q. What orders did [Brigadeführer Walter] Stahlecker give you before you
left Riga?

A. He gave me two orders particularly, the first order was to have as
good a relationship as possible with the army and, second, as i have
said, according to the Führerbefehl to have Estonian Jews eliminated.

(From the testimany delivered for the Einsatztruppen Case, 1947-1948,
vol. 6, pp. 2143-2176, quoted in Ezergailis op. cit., pps. 204 - 205.)


3. Captured German documents

SS-Brigadeführer Walter Stahlecker's Memorandum of August 6, 1941. This
memorandum was written in response to Hinrich Lohse's "Guidelines on
the treatment of Jews in Ostland" (July 27, 1941). Up until the
beginning of the war against the Soviet Union, policy towards Jews in
Nazi-occupied territory had primarily been to ghettoize them and
exploit them for labor. Hinrich Lohse, the civilian governor of the
Ostland, had recommended that the same policy be continued. In response
to this SS-Brigadeführer Walter Stahlecker, head of Einsatzgruppe A,
wrote:

"The projected measures concerning the settling of the Jewish problem
are not in harmony with those orders concerning Jews in the Ostland
given by Einsatzgruppe A of the Security Police and the SD. Nor does
the project take into consideration the new possibilities of cleaning
up the Jewish question in the Eastern regions.

"In the Generalgouvernement there was no serious danger to in leaving
the Jews in their living quarters and work places. But in the Ostland,
the resident Jews or those brought in by the Red powers became the
leading supporters of the Bolshevik idea. Numerous Jews are openly
communist activists. The experience so far allows us to expect that,
even a long time after the military occupation of the Ost territory,
disorders will arise. Sabotage and acts of terror can be expected not
only from communists not caught in previous actions, but precisely from
Jews who will use every possibility to create disorder. The pressing
need to pacify the Ost area quickly makes it necessary to eliminate all
likely sources of disorder.
 
"The project apparently does not foresee the resettlement of the Jews as
an immediate measure provided under paragraph V, but rather sees that
as a lower, later development.

"In closing, let me sum up by saying that the Jewish question shall be
solved by 1) a complete and 100 percent clearing of the Jews from the
Ost territory; 2) preventing the Jews from increasing their numbers; 3)
using the Jews to the fullest as a work force; 4) a considerable
facilitation for the later collective transport to a reservatrion
outside Europe.

"This definite measure can be carried out only by the forces of the
Security and the Order Police.

A post script to the letter reads:

"Consider it desirable, before issuing any basic statement, once more to
discuss these questions by word of mouth, especially since it is safer
that way, and since it concerns fundamental orders from higher authority
to the Security Police, ones that should not be discussed in writing."

(The full text of the memorandum is given in A. Ezergailis, _The
Holocaust in Latvia: 1941 - 1944_. Riga: The Historical Institute of
Latvia. 1996. Pgs. 378 - 380.)

According to Ezergailis, Stahlecker made three further rerefences to the
fundamental orders - on October 15, 1941, and on January 31, 1942.

Stahlecker's Consolidated Report, October 15, 1941:

"From the very beginning it was to be expected that pogroms alone would
not solve the Jewish problem in the Ostland. The goal of the cleansing
operation of the Sicherheitspolizei, in accordance with the fundamental
orders, was the most comprehensive elimination of the Jews possible."

The same report continues:

"It is appropriate to mention in this connection the considerable
resistance by officers of the Civil Administration against the
implementation of large-scale executions. This resistance was countered
in all cases by pointing out that the implementation of executions was
the result of a fundamental order."

Stahlecker's Consolidated Report, January 31, 1942:

"According to the orders of establishing basic principles to be
followed, the systematic purge operations in the Ostland, including the
elimination, as completely as possible of Jewry."

(Ezergailis, op. cit., pg. 232.)


If you are able to read German have a look at the recent article on
what is known concerning Hitler's announcement of his decision to kill
the Jews of Europe and the references he made to the process in his
wartime speeches by Professor of Modern History Ulrich Herbert at
Freiburg University
(http://www.uni-freiburg.de/histsem/herbert/abe-herbert-Fuehrerentscheid
ung.html).

******************************************************************
> > Heydrich and Himmler, to
> > solve the Jewish Problem 'once and for all', by effecting the 'physical
> > destruction of Jewry'. Nevertheless, as was so typical of Hitler's
> > style of government, he left the responsibility for coming up with an
> > interpretation of his words and a practical solution to them.
> 
> I'm sorry but I cannot accept specious mistranslation as evidence of a plot
> for the physical extermination of 6-15 million jews. Do you no whince when
> you use this argument?

What do you regard as "specious mistranslation"? I am myself a
qualified translator from German into English and know that the
translation of phrases such as "die physische Vernichtung des
Judentums" is precisely and nothing other than "the physical
destruction (or annihilation) of Jewry".

> > Hitler was not particularly interested in the practical day-to-day
> > responsibilities of leadership. He was more fascinated by the symbolism
> > and power aspects: making speeches, being the center of attention at
> > ceremonies, and micromanaging battlefield strategy. Once he had
> > delegated the job of finding a Solution to the Jewish Problem to his
> > underlings, he was no longer particularly concerned about it.
> 
> In fact once Hitler had succeded in attaining power he had lost interest in
> it, except for the occasional order to STOP brutal (most would say visible)
> 'anti-semitic' action!

Hitler didn't like to get caught with egg on his necktie, as was the
case when his authorization of the euthansia program became public
knowledge.

> 
> > The fact that he was briefed about what was going on is evident in his
> > occasional references in speeches to the uprooting, annihilation, and
> > destruction of the Jews in Europe.
> 
> Annihilation is an English word.

This English word and the German word "Vernichtung" share a common
history. English has borrowed the word directly from Medieval Latin
adnihilatio/annihilatio, a verbal substantive from the verb
adnihilare/annihilare, literally "to-nothing-make". The German word, a
verbal substantive from vernichten "to destroy, to annihilate" in turn,
is a calque [= an element-by-element translation or rendition of a
foreign word]: ver- "completely" - nicht "nothing" - -en "infinitive
marker with a causal implication".

 
> > In assessing changes in Nazi policy towards Jews it is important to
> > remember that the scope of the problem expanded rapidly during the
> > short interval between early 1939, when the object of policy was to be
> > the 200,000 Jews living in the Reich, and January 1942, when the Nazis
> > understood that they might have to potential to have access to all of
> > the 12,000,000 Jews living in Europe.
> >
> > Heydrich and his crew had originally made plans to concentrate Jews and
> > prepare them for evacuation to the East.
> 
> In accordance with the original expatriation idea which nobody is ever going
> to deny.

There is no need to deny it. Expatriating the 200,000 Jews that the
Nazis had under their control at the beginning of 1939 when the world
was at peace was a realistic option. Expatriating the 12,000,000 Jews
they had under their potential control in early 1942 when the world was
at war was not.

> > However, the unexpected expansion in the number of Jews to be dealt with
> generated practical
> > problems:
> >
> > a. The East, as defined after June 22, 1941, was already full of Jews
> > b. The Germans wanted the East for their own colonists
> >
> > The only solution was to divide the notion of evacuation to the East
> > into two subcomponents:
> >
> > a. Evacuate Jews to points in the East
> > b. Kill them when they arrive, either immediately or through a strict
> > regime of slave labor
> 
> Then why did they refuse to send sick people to 'death' camps even after
> 1943?

Don't ask me. Not everything they did was internally consistent or
rational.

> > Redefining the Final Solution in these terms was quite clearly the
> > purpose of the Wannsee Conference
> 
> A highly contentious document.

Why?


[snip]
> > Neither was the issue of state-implemented systematic mass-murder a
> > problem: by January 1942 the Nazis had already killed more than 100,000
> > of their own citizens within the framework of the T4 euthansia program.
> > They had no moral compunctions about systematic mass murder, and they
> > had developed methodologies and trained the personnel necessary to
> > commit it. As history shows us, the euthanasia program and the final
> > solution of the Jewish program eventually merged administratively, with
> > personal and experience developed within the former being transferred
> > to the latter.
> 
> Undoubtedly Hitler himself signed death warrents for thousands of people,
> but the euthanasia program was not as extensive as you say, and the
> administrative merging... Where do you get this from?

It's a well known fact. Administrative personnel such as Christian
Wirth and Franz Stangl who had been central figures in the euthanasia
program wound up designing gas chambers and adminstering death camps
within Aktion Reinhard.

Hans-Heinrich Wilhelm, "The Euthanasia Program," The Encyclopedia of the
Holocaust, Vol II, pp.452-454:

"The first large-scale euthanasia action seems to have taken place in
Pomerania and estern Prussia shortly after the Polish campaign. During
1940, four euthanasia institutions went into operation: Grafeneck, in
January, Brandenburg, in February, Hartheim, in May and Sonnenstein, in
June. In the first half of the year, 8,765 persons were gassed in these
four institutions, three-quarters of them in May and June, a time when
world attention was focused on the Battle of France. By the end of
1940, a total of 26,459 patients had been put to death, and in the
first eight months of 1941, an additional 35,049 were "disinfected."
These were the figures given by the accounting section of T4's head
office.

[DELETIONS]

The euthanasia program proved to be a valuable precursor to the
atrocities which were to come in connection with the "Final Solution."
SS Major Christian Wirth was transferred from his duties at a
euthanasia center to take over the supervision of Chelmo, the first of
six extermination camps in Poland to become operational. His expertise
in mass extermination seems to have been a major consideration. Wirth
later served at Belzek, Treblinka and Sobibor. In 1942, Franz Stangl
was transferred from one of the euthanasia centers to Sobibor
extermination camp where he served as camp commander. He performed so
well there that he was transferred in the summer of 1942 to Treblinka
[Many years later, in 1970, Stangl was extradited from Brazil to West
Germany to stand trial. He was found guilty of joint responsibility for
the murder of 900,000 Jews]. After the Wannsee Conference in 1942, the
staff of the Euthanasia Program was transferred to Operation Reinhard."

> 
> > After Heydrich's assassination in 1942, responsibility for
> > impelementing the final solution of the Jewish problem shifted to
> > Himmler, Göring, and Eichmann. As the excerpts from the interrogation of
> > SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln indicate
> 
> Remind us where and when this interrogation took place please?

In Riga, Latvian SSR in December, 1945. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich
Jeckeln's reputation as one of the key figures in massacres of Jews
carried out in Ukraine, Belarussia, and the Baltics was well known in
the world by this time.

> > , they, not Hitler, were
> > micromanaging 'Extermination to the East' and its aftermath. There is
> > no questioning the fact that the term 'liquidation' is being used by
> > Jeckeln as a synonym for 'shooting to death':
> 
> But his words were tortured from him. They're hardly reliable are they?

Why do you assume this? Jeckeln left a massive paper trail behind him
as an extremely high-ranking officer, a major general and, after his
appointment by Heinrich Himmler on October 11,1941, the highest ranking
police officer in the Ostland administration. What he stated when
interrogated corrobrated with markings in Himmler's personal
diaries and with evidence from numerous other historical sources. Some
of the atrocities he coordinated are even documented in photographs and
films taken by the Nazis and others. The Riga, massacre, for example,
took three weeks to plan, had its own office and staff, and required
the participation of more than 1,700 people on two separate days. A
train carrying 1,000 Berlin Jews that had left the German capital on
the night of November 28, 1941, arrived in Riga early in the morning on
November 30 and was parked on a siding. Its inhabitants were awakened
and marched to the Rumbula killing site, where the shooting started
promptly at 6 AM. They had all been shot by the time the first of
12,000 Jews from the Riga ghetto, who had been marching along the 10 km
road from central Riga to Rumbala along Maskavas Iela Street since 6
AM, arrived, shortly before 9 AM. These historical facts linked in one
way or another to Jeckeln are known from a number of sources. 

If there had been anything suspect in the interrogation of
SS-Obergruppenführer Jeckeln, one would expect the post-Soviet Latvian
government to have called attention to it by now. In actual fact, more
attention is focused on the Holocaust of Latvian Jews and on the
atrocities committed by the Nazis nowadays in Latvia, with the opening
of previously closed archives, than was the case during the Soviet
period, when the Nazi atrocities committed in Latvia and the other
Baltic countries were regarded as military activities consequent to
German efforts to capture and ethnically cleanse Soviet territory,
rather than as part of a systematically coordinated continent-wide
effort to kill Jews, Gypsies, and others.

Friedrich Jeckeln was a big fish, and we can learn a lot about both the
day-to-day implementation of the Holocaust and the flow of information
concerning the details of various individual Holocaust atrocities from
the field back to Berlin by studying the paper trail he and his staff
left. See the massive collection of scanned documents on Jeckeln at 
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z3.html).

> They are as reliable as the Leuchter report, and so is all of the other
> testimony taken in allied custody.

That is a totally unjustified and asburd assumption. Jeckeln was a
top-ranking officer. As such. he knew what the stakes were and
certainly did not have to be tortured to give information about events
known about from other sources.
 
> 
> 
> > Although no serious historian
> 
> This is a peach

Name one historian, serious or non-serious, who would argue that Hitler
was totally ignorant of the Holocaust. If he had been totally ignorant,
how do you account for the references in his war-time speeches to the
ongoing Vernichtung and Ausrottung [destruction/annihilation and
extermination] of Judentum/die Juden/die jüdische Rasse [Jewry/the
Jews/the Jewish race] in Europe.
 
> > would buy Irving's argument that Hitler
> > was totally ignorant of the Holocaust, or yours that it never took
> > place, I do accept that Hitler had delegated it to his underlings and,
> > having done that, showed little interest in following up its day-to-day
> > implementation. Nevertheless, rounding up, transporting, accommodating,
> > and killing millions of people ate up a substantial part of the annual
> > state budget, for which reason I cannot accept that Hitler was so
> > irresponsible or incompetent a leader that he would not have at least
> > insisted that he be regularly briefed on how effectively the billions
> > of Reichsmarks and other resources, including two government
> > departments, allocated to implementing the Final Solution were being
> > used. He referred to the ongoing process of the destruction of European
> > Jewry frequently enough in his speeches and spent enough time
> > discussing the conduct of the war with his closest underlings, both
> > formally and informally, that he had to have a general idea of what was
> > going on. For reasons of political face-saving Hitler did not want to
> > be regarded as being too closely associated with the practical
> > implementation of the Final Solution. He had already suffered a severe
> > political embarrassment for having been found to be more closely
> > associated than was politically wise with the euthansia program.
> 
> He wasn't a nice man to say the least, but then I'm at a loss to think of
> more than ten statesmen who were. And when it comes to genocide the allies
> varifiably murdered more in the war than the Nazis did if one includes
> dresden, hiroshima etc. 

Nonsense. The accepted figure for Dresden is between 30,000 and 60,000;
for Hiroshima and Nagaski perhaps 240,000 all told. At a single, Nazi
death camp, Belzec, twice as many people ((240,000 + 60,000) * 2), at
least 600,000, were killed.

> And that's before we include the ideological crusade
> against socialism which has been persued since, and of which all of this is
> a part.
> In fact it is often remarked that Germany waged a much cleaner war than the
> allies.

Don't tell that to the more than 20,000,000 Soviet citizens killed by
Hitler's armies.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:10:58 EDT 2001
Article: 919113 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving
Supersedes: <280620011943403435%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 20:15:12 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <280620011757058782%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman
 wrote:

> In article <993666325.8075.0.nnrp-10.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>, Paris
>  wrote:
> 
>
> > > Historical records indicate that some time during the summer of 1941
> > > Hitler issued vague orders to his underlings,
> > 
> > Please could you state where you get this?

Extremely vague orders to use lethal force to deal with any Jews or
others that were even suspected of being potential troublemakers were
given to the Einsatzkommandos when they accompanied the Wehrmacht in
the USSR in 1941, as I pointed out in a previous posting. This meant a
"shoot first, and ask questions later" type of policy which resulted in
the systematic shooting by the Einsatzkommandos first of Jewish men,
then of Jewish women and children, as well as of Gypsies and suspected
communist sympathizers in the countryside and small towns. In the
larger cities, in contrast, Jews were informed that the Nuremburg Laws
were in force, that their homes, property, and assets were to be
confiscated by the occupation authorities, that their citizenship had
been taken away from them, that they were to be resettled, and that
they were to report to the ghettos being built for them by a specific
deadline or risk lethal consequences. Resettlement was a ruse: when the
Nazis were satisfied that they had rounded up all of the local Jews
they were marched to specially prepared killing sites where mass garves
had been dug and shot. This happened in S^iauliai, Minsk, Kiev,
Tallinn, Riga, Daugavpils, and many other places in the north-western
part of the USSR betwen July and December, 1941.

The article excerpted below below by Professor Herbert of Freiburg
University in Germany argues that the Nazis, who saw the initiation of
hostilities against the USSR as an action to rid Europe of the Jewish
influence of what they considered to be the Jewish-run government of
the USSR, also regarded the entry into the war of the United States
after Pearl Harbor as the work of the Jewish interests which,
supposedly, ran the United States. Thus, they were fighting a two front
war against what they considered to be two branches of world Jewry, and
this justified regarding every Jew on territory under Nazi control as
an enemy agent. Strange as it might seem to us, Professor Herbert
points out that this paranoia about the power of world Jewry was part
of the Nazi mindset and had had been channeled by the Nazis previously
into a nation-wide pogrom against German Jews to avenge the shooting by
a Polish Jew of a German diplomat in Paris.

Source:
http://www.uni-freiburg.de/histsem/herbert/abe-herbert-Fuehrerentscheidu
ng.html

[Translation of the final section of a long, but interesting article by
Professor Ulrich Herbert, Chair of Modern and Contemporary History at
the University of Freiburg, concerning evidence for a specific Hitler
order to kill the Jews of Europe, EH]

 In December 1941 when the representatives of the German occupation
authorities in the East, who had been urgently awaiting a decision
concerning the further measures to be used against the Jews and had
thus been bringing increasingly stronger pressure on the Nazi
leadership to make a decision, Berlin's interpretation that the entry
of the United States into the war was the work of the Jews permitted
the thought that a "solution" to the Jewish problem no more radical
than what had been being done up until then would seem unthinkable. In
what must have been an intense situation nothing more was needed than a
simple repetition by Hitler of his "prophecy" made on January 30, 1939
to make clear to men such as Heydrich, Frank, or Rosenberg that he did
not oppose even the most radical of all "solutions". It would
contradict everything consistently observed concerning Hitler's style
of leadership for him to react to such crisis situations with
"decisions of principle", regulations, or even orders. Hitler was more
prone to react with rhetorical effusions of power, grim prophecies, and
threats, which allowed his subordinates a free hand and, most of all,
mediated to them the feeling, that, if they dropped all of their
inhibitions, they themselves could act "in the spirit of the Führer",
without having been directly ordered to do so. The evidence collected
by Professor Gerlach indicates that this was also the case when the
decisive step to effect a "Final Solution to the Jewish Problem" was
made, evidently consequent to the entry of the United States into the
war.

Thus the way to genocide was opened. It does not require the belabored
construction of some proclamation of a "decision of principle".


********************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:10:59 EDT 2001
Article: 919136 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic vs Scandinavian
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 21:26:28 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <280620012126284393%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <9hfqp4$2ej2$3@news.cybercity.dk>, Torsten
 wrote:

> I soc.culture.nordic skrev Usurpator :
> > Op Wed, 27 Jun 2001 05:37:50 GMT slaagde Richard Rongstad erin 
> > om dit te potsen:
> >>In the U.S. schools I attended, at all levels, Finland was considered 
> >>part of Scandinavia. Maps are also marked that way. 
> 
> > The US educational system, is it the same system growing up people who
> > think Brussels and Scotland are independent countries?
> 
> It's more a result of English "Scandinavia" meaning something different
> than Scandinavian "Skandinavien/Skandinavia".

Bravo, Torsten! All in all, it's the same thing as when many people in
the Nordic countries use the word "England" indiscriminantly when
talking about the homeland of people who are Welsh, Scotch, Northern
Irish, or  English. Or, even worse, when drunken Nordic
tourists go to the Costa del Sol or Mallorca, thinking that people will
take them seriously if they begin to speak  Spanish.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:10:59 EDT 2001
Article: 919313 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 08:05:25 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <290620010805250868%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <993164101.22074.0.nnrp-02.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <9h79s3$1ok5$1@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> <3B37A02A.AF830FD3@earthlink.net> <993494187.1898.0.nnrp-01.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>  <993580977.9200.0.nnrp-08.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <73fedc95.0106261906.1ea2b75c@posting.google.com> <270620011901502859%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <993666325.8075.0.nnrp-10.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <280620011757058782%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <73fedc95.0106281957.449d5a91@posting.google.com>
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In article <73fedc95.0106281957.449d5a91@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

> The contemperaneous
> written documents left by the Germans refute it.  There is a
> consistent written record revealing the German plan right through 1943
> was emigration and expulsion, not extermination.  Here are excerpts
> from some of the wartime German records, in chronological order:

[snip]

> ________________________
> 
> March 27, 1942 - Goebbels Diary entry 
> 
> "Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government are now
> being evacuated eastward. The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and
> not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the
> Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will
> have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced
> labor.
> ________________________

Sounds pretty exterminationist: it speaks of a "barbaric" procedure,
says that not much will be left of them, and that 60% will be
"liquidated", leaving only 40 left to enslave.


> _________________________
> 
> October 4, 1943 - Speech by Himmler in Poznan, 
> 
> "I mean the evacuation of the Jews, the eradication of the Jewish
> nation."
> _________________________

The term "eradicate", the translation of "Ausrottung", refers to
something more brutal than emigration.


>       Hoess's statement that he had orders to kill all the Jews in
> 1941 is an obvious lie.

Then how do you explain the disappearance from history of more than
1,000,000 people known to have bene shipped to his camp at Auschwitz
and never seen or heard from again?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:10:59 EDT 2001
Article: 919369 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Poll on Joe Bruno.
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 16:19:38 +0300
Organization: University of helsinki
Lines: 82
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In article , Orac
 wrote:

> In article <3B3A6BED.C7166BCE@earthlink.net>,
>  "Richard G. Phillips"  wrote:
> 
> > Orac wrote:
> 
> > > Evidence that doctors "leaned very hard on" Dr. Kelsey and the FDA to
> > > approve thalidomide.
> >
> > Two things:
> > 
> > (1) At the time the news about the pressures that had been put on 
> > Kelsey were common reading in the popular press. Sorry, no, I don't 
> > save very newspaper article I read in the hope of using it to win an 
> > argument 30 years later.
> > 
> > (2) A superficial knowledge of how people run, how institutions run, 
> > and how the world runs. (superficial is all that is needed) I will 
> > explain it if you ask me to but you would be wise not to ask. You 
> > could end up looking foolish.
> 
> 
> I'll take the chance of looking foolish. (Actually, I'm not very 
> worried.) Feel free to explain if you wish.
> -- 
>

An excerpt from http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/697_thal.html




That thalidomide was never marketed in the United States was largely due
to the stubborn skepticism of FDA's Frances Kelsey, M.D., Ph.D., whose
doubts about the drug kept it out of American pharmacies. Assigned to
review the thalidomide application, she fought a dogged defensive battle,
blocking and parrying every attempt by Richardson-Merrell to gain approval
until the news from the European countries made approval unthinkable.

Kelsey was particularly interested in fetal safety because during the
1940s she had worked on the antimalarial drug quinine and had noted that
embryos lacked the ability to metabolize quinine. But she had other
concerns. She wanted to know how the drug behaved in the human body. She
wanted to know about its stability, about its effect on human metabolism,
about its basic chemistry and pharmacology. How the drug worked in
laboratory animals was not enough; she wanted to know how it worked in
humans. Years later, she recalled that, "... at this time there was
growing concern regarding the exposure of the fetus to drugs and other
substances to which the mother was exposed during pregnancy. ...
Furthermore, the harmful effects of German measles during pregnancy had
been recognized ... . The recognition of peripheral neuritis developing
particularly after long-term use of thalidomide raised in our mind the
question as to what effect the drug might have on the fetus who might be
exposed to it for up to nine months."

Kelsey wanted to know the answers to questions that often were not asked
in those days. Neither Chemie Grunenthal nor Richardson-Merrell, the
American licensee, could or would answer her questions, and so the drug
went unapproved in the United States.

Long honored for her role in blocking the approval of the drug, Kelsey,
who still works for FDA as deputy for medical and scientific affairs in
the agency's Center for Drug Evaluation and Research, points out that
thalidomide was the first drug application to which she was assigned after
joining the agency in 1960. "They gave it to me because they thought it
would be an easy one to start on," she now recalls. "As it turned out, it
wasn't all that easy."

Although thalidomide was unapproved in the United States, it was never
ignored by researchers. According to Debbie Birnkrant, M.D., of the
agency's division of special pathogens and immunological drug products,
"Research on the drug slowed somewhat after the tragedies of the late
1950s and 1960s, but it never really stopped."



Hope that helped.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:00 EDT 2001
Article: 919425 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!isdnet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:38:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <290620012038419185%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <993164101.22074.0.nnrp-02.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <9h79s3$1ok5$1@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> <3B37A02A.AF830FD3@earthlink.net> <993494187.1898.0.nnrp-01.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>  <993580977.9200.0.nnrp-08.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <73fedc95.0106261906.1ea2b75c@posting.google.com> <270620011901502859%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <993666325.8075.0.nnrp-10.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <280620011757058782%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <280620012015127219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B3CA2B0.8A0D9504@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B3CA2B0.8A0D9504@earthlink.net>, Harry Katz
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman writes:
> 
>         This meant a "shoot first, and ask questions later" type of
>         policy which resulted in the systematic shooting by the
>         Einsatzkommandos first of Jewish men, then of Jewish women
>         and children...
> 
> I believe the first victims were women and children and men who were
> elderly or infirm.  Able-bodied Jewish men had the sense to hide out
> in the forests, believing that their loved ones would not be harmed
> because they were non-combatants.  When they learned the fates of those
> they left behind, they formed partisan units to fight their enemy.
> 

I don't think one cancels out the other. As you wrote, there were
actions and counteractions, resulting on changes in plans and strategy.
As far as the Baltics, about which I know most, were concerned, the
Einsatzkommandos started rounding up and killing Jews, communists,
suspected trouble-makers, etc. as soon as they crossed the borders. For
the most part, these were males. As word of the arrests and public
executions spread, males of the targeted groups had the sense to flee
to and hide in the forests. In reprisal the Germans began arresting
their women and children left behind as hostages. When the men didn't
come out of hiding, the Germans killed their hostages in reprisal. That
embittered the men in the forests, causing them to form organized
groups of partisans in reprisal. This, in turn, caused the Germans to
arrest and execute ever greater numbers of people belonging to the
targeted groups as troublemakers in reprisal for the damage partisan
resistance was causing. German policy usually avenged the injury or
killing of their forces on a ten-to-one basis. Thus we have a viscious
circle of escalation which provides grist for the mill of those who
claim that the Holocaust was improvised as well as for those who claim
it unfolded as systematic policy.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:00 EDT 2001
Article: 919434 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the revisionist scholars who aren't neo-nazis or anti-semites?
Supersedes: <290620012109441251%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 21:23:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 75
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In article <3B3C5BA8.5943AE8A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> neo-Nazi; anti-Semite
> 
> Mr. Matthews. An anti-Semite may be nothing more than a man vho draws
> attention to the fact that Jews
> --have acquired for themselves financial, political, and cultural  power
> vastly out of proportion to their numbers

Hitherto I had though that you were a person who does not believe that
all men, races, ethnicities, etc. are equal in any meaningful sense. If
these are your beliefs and you are in any way consistent, it should be
obvious that some of the various groups constituting even the simplest
and most homogeneous society are going to amass financial, political,
and cultural power vastly out of proportion to their numbers. This
could be men, buxom women, rap artists, lawyers, matinée idols,
fashion models, nincompoop presidents, prizefighters, or kilobuck
prostititutes.

So, what is intrinsically *wrong* with the fact that Jews in the United
States have amassed financial, political, and cultural power vastly out
of proportion to their numbers. If they hadn't have done it, some other
group would have done it.Would you really be happier if the US were run
by buxom women or nincompoops?  Even in as monolithically egalitarian a
society as North Korea the ruling Kim dynasty has amassed financial
etc. power vastly out of proportion to their numbers.


> --have been using that power in ways that are against the best interests of
> the American people.

A specious argument: the Jews in the United States are one of the many
elements making up the American people. And, of course, not all
American Jews have amassed this power. Many have been left outside of
this power trip, yourself, for example. So, as is the case with the
Negro crime you enjoy railing about so much, it is a minority within a
minority that is responsible for that minority's public image. You
would certainly raise your voice in protest, using you own situation as
an exemplar, if I were to state, with regard to Jewish dominance, as
catageorically as you have stated about Negro crime, that American Jews
are four times as likely to be in positions of power as other
Americans.

One could certainly counter that White Anglo-Saxon Protestants have
also amassed financial, political, and cultural power vastly out of
proportion to their numbers. You yourself are on record as recently
having protested that this minority, more specifically the male
minority within this minority, could come up with nothing better than a
nincompoop to lead the country, a position this pesky WASP minority has
monopolized in 42 out of 43 opportunities during these past 225 years.
 
> I submit to you that if a man genuinely and sincerely believes these things,
> then he not only has a right to speak out but the DUTY to do so.

You may have a point, but why do so few people speak up about such
issues as male dominance or WASP dominance. Males have caused the US
far many more problems than Jews ever could have, and WASP males,
running the US as though it were their personal feifdom, have certainly
not always acted in the interests of the majority of Americans, who are
neither WASPs nor males.

I am not stating this just to score points. The Achille's heel of
American society is that it is the only major developed country not to
have universal national health coverage. It was a WASP female, Hillary
Clinton, who tried to recity this situation, but she was laughed down.
It continues to cause an untold number of financial tragedies, the
victims of which are a disproportionately large but relatively
powerless group in American society: female survivors, aka widows.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:00 EDT 2001
Article: 919459 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the revisionist scholars who aren't neo-nazis or anti-semites?
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:45:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B3CAC75.36FC65B3@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> 
> These are the reasons why I believe that the presence of the Jew is corrosive.
> 
> =========================================

For once you have presented your viewpoint cogently and logically. I
have only a single question, one raised in my previous posting, but
which you chose to ignore: how do you, as a Jew lacking political,
economic, or cultural power, consider yourself to fit into the American
mosaic?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:01 EDT 2001
Article: 919474 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 23:35:40 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 161
Message-ID: <290620012335407857%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <993164101.22074.0.nnrp-02.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <9h79s3$1ok5$1@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> <3B37A02A.AF830FD3@earthlink.net> <993494187.1898.0.nnrp-01.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>  <993580977.9200.0.nnrp-08.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <73fedc95.0106261906.1ea2b75c@posting.google.com> <270620011901502859%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <993666325.8075.0.nnrp-10.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <280620011757058782%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <280620012015127219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <993842459.23833.1.nnrp-02.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>
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In article <993842459.23833.1.nnrp-02.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>, Paris
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> news:280620012015127219%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> 
> > > > > Historical records indicate that some time during the summer of 1941
> > > > > Hitler issued vague orders to his underlings,
> > > >
> > > > Please could you state where you get this?
> >
> > Extremely vague orders to use lethal force to deal with any Jews or
> > others that were even suspected of being potential troublemakers were
> > given to the Einsatzkommandos when they accompanied the Wehrmacht in
> > the USSR in 1941, as I pointed out in a previous posting.
> 
> But you admit yourself that these orders were extremely vague!

It's not an admission, but a fact. How the vague orders to "lisuidate
potential troublemakers in newly occupied territories" were actually
implemented was determined by circumstances. Cause led to consequence,
which functioned as new causes for new consequences. In January 1939,
when the Germans had 200,000 Jews under their control, the "Jewish
problem" was of a totally different nature than it was in January 1942,
when they had some 10,000,000, with perhaps already 1,000,000 killed,
with a fair chance of getting their hands on on 2,000,000 more.


> Then you go on to tell me what you think they REALLY meant!
> Can you not see why I am less than convinced by your arguments.
> All in all you have presented me with only two pieces of varifiable evidence
> in our 5 or so posts together. The rest has been reams and reams of personal
> testimony
> and 'interpretations' of orders that might or might not have been sent.

There is concrete documentary evidence that the orders werte issued, as
there is also that they were interpreted and implemented.

> 
> You have also quoted passages from confession made under duress and so on.
> These are the classic hallmarks of a fit up.
> 
> 

Neither of the passages I quoted from in extenso were made under
duress. One was from Hoess memoirs, written in prison _after_ hisa
trial and sentence to death. He had nothing to lose. The other was from
Jeckeln's interrogation. His career was also well documented. As a
high-ranking officer with a four-year career of extremely publicly
committed mass murder behind him, one that was so illustrious that it
had given rise to the concept "the Jeckeln Method", Jeckeln know in
December 1945 what was in store for him. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich
Jeckeln had nothing to hide, because he had had so open a career.


> > [Translation of the final section of a long, but interesting article by
> > Professor Ulrich Herbert, Chair of Modern and Contemporary History at
> > the University of Freiburg, concerning evidence for a specific Hitler
> > order to kill the Jews of Europe, EH]
> >
> >  In December 1941 when the representatives of the German occupation
> > authorities in the East, who had been urgently awaiting a decision
> > concerning the further measures to be used against the Jews and had
> > thus been bringing increasingly stronger pressure on the Nazi
> > leadership to make a decision, Berlin's interpretation that the entry
> > of the United States into the war was the work of the Jews permitted
> > the thought that a "solution"
> 
> Interesting quotations. Rather like Lipstadts quotation markes which have
> since been admitted as
> disgraceful, but not admitted as strong enough grounds to find in favour of
> Irving.
> 
> 
> 
> The 'final solution' stuff is yet more interpretation of words which aren't
> even reliable.

The term was used by Himmler and others. Although it had different
meanings at different times and in different local conditions, its
basic nucleus was always the same: physically eliminating Jews from
areas where Germany had political control.

I am presently translating an article by a Finnish historian dealing
with some of the ironies of the "Final Solution" in northern Europe.
Basically, the point he makes is the following:

The Germans wanted to rid Europe of Jews, preferably by killing them,
but they are open to other options, particularly if the country where
the Jews lived was in a political aliance with, as opposed to being
occupied by, Germany. We thus finf the following very different fate
sof Jews in Northern Euroope:

€ Norway: occupied by Germany, collaborationist pro-Nazi government.
Jews initially not harassed, but suddenly most of them were stripped of
their Norwegian citizenship by the Nazis, after which they were
deported and killed in two operations. Of Norway's 1,300 pre-war Jews,
762 are killed by the Nazis.

€ Denmark: occupied by Germany, collaborationist anti-Nazi government.
Jews initially harassesd, ut the government sets the price of further
collaboration on decent treatment of all Danish citizens, icnluding
Jews. Some Danish Jews are sent to the Therisienstadt model
concentration camp in Bohemia, where their lives are guaranteed by a
German-Danish agreement, other are spirited to Sweden, with the Germans
looking the other way. Of Denmark's 5,600 pre-war Jews, about 60 are
killed by the Nazis.

€ Finland: a cobelligerent (limited ally) of Germany, joining the
German attack on the USSR in the hope of regaining territory conquered
>from it consequent to the unprovoked Soviet attack on it in 1939. the
government was pro-German but anti-Nazi. Reichsführer-SS Heinrich
Himmler visited Finland in 1942 to assess the local Jewish problem, but
was tersely informed that Finland's 2,300 Jews were not and never had
been a problem. The Germans accepted this, although they exerted
diplomatic presure on Fnland to hand over its Jewish citizens to it.
Finland, which had taken in several hundred Jewish refugees from
Central Europe, eventually handed over eight foreign Jews who had
committed crimes in Finland, whose papers were not in order, or who
were children of such foreign Jews, to the German authorities. All were
sent to Auschwitz, where all but one perished. Thus the number of
Holocaust victims listed for Finland is 7, none of which were, however
Finnish Jews. Finnish Jews fought alongside of the nazis against the
USSR, and were particularly appreciated by the Germans for their
knowledge of German (through Yiddish). Some of them were even awarded
the Iron Cross which, however, none of them accepted.

€ Sweden: neutral, but economically and politcally subordinated to
Germany. The iron ore from the mines at Kiruna, the ball berrings from
SKF, and the armaments from the Bofors group were crucial to the Nazi
war effort. Sweden also allowed - or was force to allow - its territory
to be used by German troops on their way to the front lines in the
north and north east. Sweden had the largest Jewish populaiton n
northern Europe, about 8,000, and they were left alone, despite heavuy
German influence in Swedish society. Many of the Jews in Norway and
Denmark fled to Sweden in the early years of the war, and the German
authorities truned a blind eye.

On a different level, Swedish diplomats such as Raoul Wallenberg and
Per Anger, as the diplomatic representatives of a neutral country, had
first-hand access to information concerning the fate of Jews in Central
Europe. Wallenberg wound up sacrificing his life in his efforts to
issue Swedish travel documents to the more than half a million
Hungarian Jews in danger of being rounded up and sent to Nazi
extermination camps during the summer of 1944. The Swedish King
eventually intervened to convince the Hungarian government to stop
delivering Hungarian Jews to German extermination camps.


******************************

The orders to deal with the "Jewish problem" were vague, and different
local circumstances ultimately determined the manner in which they were
interpreted and carried out. This is hardly surprising, given that
Germany, with no real allies and dependent on imports for crucial raw
materials, was not, as much as it took efforts to be so, in a position
to dictate to countries that were cooperating with it how they should
deal with their Jewish minorities.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:01 EDT 2001
Article: 919486 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.british,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:05:30 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 132
Message-ID: <300620010005305510%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <993164101.22074.0.nnrp-02.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <9h79s3$1ok5$1@salmon.maths.tcd.ie> <3B37A02A.AF830FD3@earthlink.net> <993494187.1898.0.nnrp-01.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>  <993580977.9200.0.nnrp-08.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <73fedc95.0106261906.1ea2b75c@posting.google.com> <270620011901502859%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <993666325.8075.0.nnrp-10.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk> <280620011757058782%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <993845614.25375.0.nnrp-02.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>
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In article <993845614.25375.0.nnrp-02.9e986cfe@news.demon.co.uk>, Paris
 wrote:


> >
> > What do you regard as "specious mistranslation"? I am myself a
> > qualified translator from German into English and know that the
> > translation of phrases such as "die physische Vernichtung des
> > Judentums"
> 
> Again, please tell us where you get this interesting sentance from.

It is not a sentence, but a an adjetively premodified nounphrase which
seems to have originated with Adolf Eichmann. Check out:

http://www.hausarbeiten.de/rd/archiv/geschichte/gesch-text98.shtml
http://www.sbg.ac.at/gesc/lvhp/krawa/eichmann.htm

> 
>
> People actually volunteered to enter the program and were often refused!
> The program was wrong, but it was not a back door to genocide.
> 
> > > Annihilation is an English word.
> >
> > This English word and the German word "Vernichtung" share a common
> > history.
> 
> Gotten from which source!

This is the kind of stuff anybody who has studied the history of
Western European scientific terminology will know. Check out any
etymological dictionary of German to find out the Latin model from
which Vernichtung is claqued.

> 
> 
> 
> > > Then why did they refuse to send sick people to 'death' camps even after
> > > 1943?
> >
> > Don't ask me. Not everything they did was internally consistent or
> > rational.
> 
> I suggest that it was because the Nazis were desparately trying to control
> the spead of disease in the CONCENTRATION camps!!
> 
> > > A highly contentious document.
> >
> > Why?
> 
> Because it's a crock..
> http://www.codoh.com/found/fndwannsee.html
> 
> > > Undoubtedly Hitler himself signed death warrents for thousands of
> people,
> > > but the euthanasia program was not as extensive as you say, and the
> > > administrative merging... Where do you get this from?
> 
> 
> Interesting stuff, but since I have no evidence for the actual holocaust
> anyway aside from Riga (graves, not eichmanns words) and the Former USSR
> sites I am wondering what they organised!
> All the other deaths seem to be from disease, not forgivable I understand,
> but it would warrent an entierly new approch to ww2 history.
> 
> > > Remind us where and when this interrogation took place please?
> >
> > In Riga, Latvian SSR in December, 1945. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich
> > Jeckeln's reputation as one of the key figures in massacres of Jews
> > carried out in Ukraine, Belarussia, and the Baltics was well known in
> > the world by this time.
> 
> Again, they were beaten out of him.
> 
> > > > , they, not Hitler, were
> > > > micromanaging 'Extermination to the East' and its aftermath. There is
> > > > no questioning the fact that the term 'liquidation' is being used by
> > > > Jeckeln as a synonym for 'shooting to death':
> > >
> > > But his words were tortured from him. They're hardly reliable are they?
> >
> > Why do you assume this? Jeckeln left a massive paper trail behind him
> > as an extremely high-ranking officer, a major general and, after his
> > appointment by Heinrich Himmler on October 11,1941, the highest ranking
> > police officer in the Ostland administration. What he stated when
> > interrogated corrobrated with markings in Himmler's personal
> > diaries and with evidence from numerous other historical sources. Some
> > of the atrocities he coordinated are even documented in photographs and
> > films taken by the Nazis and others.
> 
> This sounds like evidence!
> Source please.
> 
> 
> 
> > If there had been anything suspect in the interrogation of
> > SS-Obergruppenführer Jeckeln, one would expect the post-Soviet Latvian
> > government to have called attention to it by now.
> 
> Why? The peer pressure of modern thought seems against this.
> 
> 
> 
> > Friedrich Jeckeln was a big fish, and we can learn a lot about both the
> > day-to-day implementation of the Holocaust and the flow of information
> > concerning the details of various individual Holocaust atrocities from
> > the field back to Berlin by studying the paper trail he and his staff
> > left. See the massive collection of scanned documents on Jeckeln at
> > (http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d09c12/jec1z3.html).

> 
> The link appears to be down.

It's running:


As of 21:50 GMT today 2001-06-29 accessed through Microsoft Internet
Explorer it yield:

Special Collection Institute of Documentation in Israel

SS - Obergruppenfuhrer Friedruch Jeckeln
Document 1 of 228 
************************************************************

Gotta go.

More tomorrow.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:01 EDT 2001
Article: 919601 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:13:44 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <300620010813447402%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3b3c968c$1@spamkiller.newsgroups.com> <3B3CED41.728EB73F@earthlink.net> <3B3CE0AC.7B1D37C1@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B3CE0AC.7B1D37C1@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Harry Katz wrote:
> 
> > Mr. Public wrote:
> >
> >         After the war they [the Germans] had to suffer the indignity
> >         of seeing their country become a pariah, with their best
> >         leaders and military heroes arrested, tried, and hanged like
> >         common criminals...
> >
> > Mr. KCOM responded:
> >
> >         That's because they were criminals.
> >
> > Indeed.  But they were not "common" criminals.  They were extraordinary
> > criminals and deserved an extraordinary hanging.
> >
> > --
> > Harry Katz
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Including -say- Doenitz. Just what was it that made him an"extraordinary"
> criminal?
> 
> =========================

Being left holding what was left of the bag. That makes him an
accessory.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:02 EDT 2001
Article: 919602 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Jews with Scotish Names?
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 08:16:18 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <300620010816186714%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <20010629143459.17064.00001165@ng-fe1.aol.com> <3B3CE1E8.7842B308@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B3CE1E8.7842B308@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> JackaHernandez wrote:
> 
> >   I have met several Jewish people with Scotish or Scotish-sounding names
> >   like
> > McDermot, McPike, MacGregor, or even Ross. Quite a few with Ross. What is
> > the
> > deal with Jews having Scot last names?
> >                                                                    ---Jack
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The law allows a man to change his name to anything he wishes. For example I
> could
> change my own to Joe Bftsplk, if I wished.
> 
> As for why Jews choose Scottish names rather than --say-- English ones, it
> may be
> because a Scottish name does an even more effective job of obscuring their
> origins.
> 

Says Phillips < Filichenkovich(?).

Regards,
Eugene Holman


> =================================================


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:02 EDT 2001
Article: 919684 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!194.213.69.151!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Jews with Scotish Names?
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 12:56:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <300620011256274107%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <20010629143459.17064.00001165@ng-fe1.aol.com> <3B3CE1E8.7842B308@earthlink.net> <300620010816186714%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B3D77A5.7986826@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B3D77A5.7986826@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> >
> > Says Phillips < Filichenkovich(?).

> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I'll have you to know, sir, that my family, notwithstanding their humble stetl
> origins, rose to the positions of being esteemed technical advisors to the
> Tsars.
> I would most particularly direct attention to my great-grandfather who was
> often
> entrusted with technical missions of  a highly confidential nature:
> 
> Aleksander Aleksandrovitch Ripoffovitch
> 
> ============================================

One of my more distant relatives in the Russian branch of the family,
Ivan Ofulich, wrote a learned tome called "How to Cure Poison Ivy".

Seriously, though, what was the family name before it metamorphized to
Phillips? I know it's a personal question, but would you care to
disclose the 'when' and the 'why' aspects as well?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:02 EDT 2001
Article: 919687 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Excerpt from "Official Secrets: What the Nazis Planned, What the British and Americans Knew", by Richard Breitman
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 13:21:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 370
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Source: http://www.fsbassociates.com/fsg/officialsecrets.html


Excerpt

The following is an excerpt from the book Official Secrets: What the
Nazis Planned, What the British and Americans Knew by Richard Breitman
Published by Farrar, Straus & Giroux; 0-8090-3819-6; $25.00US; Nov. 98
Copyright © 1998 Richard Breitman


The United States, like Great Britain, was in a favorable position to
get information about Nazi secret crimes, but not with high technology.
Technically neutral in the war until December 1941, the United States
had reporters and diplomats in Germany during the first wave of the
Holocaust. Even if they had nothing so revealing as the German police
decodes, American observers could pick up substantial information about
Nazi measures against Jews from public sources, insiders within the
regime, and opponents of it. Some of this information reached the
American government and the public, but little of it was broadcast to
Nazi-controlled Europe, even after Pearl Harbor and America's entrance
in the war. Although the United States did not have the problems of
direct rule over Arabs brought about by the British mandate in
Palestine, some officials in Washington shared other British political
considerations and calculations.

Following Germany's invasion of the U.S.S.R., the Jewish-American press
was, in general, quick off the mark. Yiddish newspapers in New York
City reported in July 1941 that the Nazis had killed hundreds of Jews
in Minsk, Brest-Litovsk, Lvov, and elsewhere. The Yiddish press had a
circulation of about four hundred thousand, more than half of which was
in New York City. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency (JTA), a news service,
issued a Daily News Bulletin, which was the main source for most
English-language American Jewish weeklies and periodicals. JTA items
occasionally reached the mainstream press as well.

Other relatively early newspaper accounts of killings and atrocities
stemmed from Soviet and Polish sources that did not emphasize Jewish
victims. On October 26, however, The New York Times carried a story
about a German and Ukrainian massacre of fifteen thousand Jews in
Galicia, some of whom had been deported from Hungary. The sources were
letters reaching Hungary and eyewitness testimony from officers
present. In mid-November, the New York Journal American featured a
story about the Rumanian killing of twenty-five thousand Jews in
Odessa; the actual total was considerably larger. A couple of weeks
later it also printed a story based on Soviet information about the
killing of fifty-two thousand people in Kiev (where the victims
included more than thirty-three thousand Jews liquidated at Babi Yar).

American reporters also wrote extensively about the deportations of
Jews from Germany; some even witnessed early departures of Jews crammed
into railcars. The destination of German Jews was said at first to be
ghettos or camps in Poland, not the Soviet territories. At the end of
October, Louis P. Lochner, the Associated Press's senior German
correspondent, wrote that total elimination of Jews from European life
was "fixed German policy" and that the fate of Jewish deportees from
Germany was unknown. When the New York Herald Tribune carried a story
in late November 1941 about the condition of Jews in the Soviet
territories, it accepted the accuracy of reported deportations (for
example, twenty thousand Jews sent into the Pinsk marshes) but was
noncommittal about more extreme measures: "some reports received here
>from Central Europe speak of massacres of Jews by Germans." This was
the beginning of a trend in the mainstream American press of treating
reports of mass killings of Jews skeptically.

In September 1941, American diplomats noticed an intensification of
Nazi propaganda against Jews, including renewed charges that world
Jewry sought the destruction of the German people. The Nazi press
explained that the Jewish question had to be solved "without any
sentimentality." A few weeks later the American embassy in Berlin
picked up rumors of mass deportations of German Jews to Lublin, Lodz,
or Warsaw, part of a policy to "remove all Jews in Germany to Poland
and other eastern areas as rapidly as is feasible." Later despatches
explained that shortages of trains had slowed down the process.
According to the diplomats, the deportation policy was unpopular: 


... the Berlin populace is showing increasing sympathy with the Jews as
the scope of the present action becomes more widely known. Several
cases have been noted of people being reprimanded for showing kindness
on the street and in shops to elderly persons wearing the Jewish star
or for criticizing the present drastic measures in public.


By late October, the American embassy expected that all Jews in Germany
would be deported within a few months, and in mid- November, it added
that able-bodied Jews were being sent from Germany to Russia for forced
labor. Meanwhile, the American military attack in Berlin reported
separately at around the same time that there was no question that SS
units were killing Jews in many occupied localities in Russia. The
normal procedure for the Nazis upon taking over a city, he said, was to
establish local commandos, to separate the Jews, and to shoot them. He
also correctly revealed atrocities and mistreatment of Soviet prisoners
of war. A logical conclusion was that the deportees would also be
killed in the East. The diplomats knew that deportations of Jews to the
East would bring grave hardships; they cited rumors filtering back to
Berlin of deaths of Jews from disease, cold, starvation, and outright
massacre. But they did not indicate clear knowledge of the fate of the
deportees.

In mid-November, Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels, using his own
name, wrote an article that was published in the paper Das Reich under
the title "The Jews Are to Blame"; this blame allegedly included
responsibility for the war. Hence Germany would, under the law of
retribution, fulfill Hitler's prophecy of January 30, 1939, that a war
would result in the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe. Goebbels
condemned Germans who allowed themselves to be duped by Jews into
sympathizing with them: among the greatest weaknesses of Germans, he
declared, were their magnanimity and forgetfulness. He found it
remarkable that every measure taken against Jews in Germany was
reported in the British and American press the next day. Jews must have
some secret means of communication with enemy foreign countries, he
claimed. Side by side with ideological and emotional rationalizations
of a Holocaust, here were signs of some nervousness about the leakage
of specific information, particularly since liquidations of German
Jewish deportees were about to commence in Kowno, Riga, and Minsk.

Germany's declaration of war on the United States just after Pearl
Harbor radically altered the situation for American observers in
Germany. Most American reporters who had not left the country, along
with remaining embassy staff and a few American military officials,
were interned as enemy aliens in Berlin; then they traveled on a
guarded train to the resort of Bad Nauheim, north of Frankfurt, where
they were held at the abandoned Jeschke's Grand Hotel. During their
enforced idleness of roughly five months, and in spite of the presence
of a Gestapo officer, the Americans managed their own affairs and
activities much of the time. With the aid of a secret battery-operated
radio, they listened each night to the BBC (and some other foreign
broadcasts) and generally kept in touch with events."

In February or early March 1942, the American military attack
distributed a questionnaire to the newsmen at Bad Nauheim and asked
them to produce individual analyses of the climate of opinion in
Germany, the strengths and weaknesses of various countries' wartime
broadcasts, and recommendations for future American information
policies. The military attack, Lieutenant Colonel W. D. Hohenthal,
summarized the findings, concluding that "propaganda" was vital to
weaken the morale of the German people and deplete their war effort.
The principal objective of propaganda, he wrote, should be to drive a
wedge between the German people and the Nazi leadership, as well as
between the regular armed forces and the Nazi Party. 

Given the difficulties of measuring popular attitudes in a police
state, the reporters' detailed responses are worthy of some attention.
They also reveal something of the reporters' attitudes about both the
climate in Germany and what the United States could or could not do to
influence the situation. P. C. Fisher of the National Broadcasting
Company (NBC), for example, believed that American propaganda had to
reach the German intelligentsia first; the intellectuals could and
would pass on the message to others. Fisher wanted American broadcasts
to stress, among other things, the corrupt Nazi judicial system, the
outrages perpetrated by the Gestapo, barbaric pogroms against the Jews,
and ruthless outrages committed by the SS in Poland and other occupied
countries. But he also warned not to give the Jewish question a
prominent place in American propaganda and not to allow Jews to write
or disseminate American propaganda, adding: "I say this not in bigotry
or any dislike for the race, but merely because I know that anything
which smacks of the Jewish angle or has a Jewish ring will be suspected
and will not be well received in Germany."

J. M. Fleisher of the United Press cautioned that the evidence and
proof of atrocities should be so convincing when reported that there
could be no doubt of authenticity: "in general, I believe it would be
better to ignore the atrocity idea because it became quite generally
discredited as a result of world war [I] practices." Louis Lochner, who
had spent twenty-one years in Germany, expressed grudging respect for
the effectiveness of Nazi propaganda. Germans slowly began to repeat
what they heard over and over again on the radio and in the press, he
said: 


people who in 1933 wanted to be fair to the Jew now repeat the same
arguments that the press brings for their complete despoliation and
elimination. I often could not refrain from saying to German
acquaintances, who thoughtlessly repeated the popular slogans and
arguments, "Have you lost all power of thinking?"


Lochner also noted that the September 1941 introduction of the yellow
Star of David, which German Jews were required to wear, was unpopular
with decent Germans but that the Propaganda Ministry had put out false
word that it was retaliation for Americans requiring Germans to wear
swastikas, which placated some. (An American diplomat had previously
reported that the regime spread this swastika story but claimed that
ordinary Germans gave it little credence.) Lochner did not express an
opinion about the use of atrocities against Jews in American
broadcasts. 

Frederick Oechsner of the United Press advised against impassioned
defenses of the Jews. Only Glen Stadler, also of the United Press,
specifically recommended not only a media campaign of accusations
against the Gestapo but also the use of statistics on concentration
camps and death rates in them. Stadler wanted discussion of the Nazi
treatment of the Jews to be part of an approach based on truth,
accuracy, and sympathy for the German people. Alvin Steinkopf of the
Associated Press, however, warned against allowing Jews to prepare
anti-Nazi propaganda, cautioning against threadbare stories from Jewish
immigrants, who had their own reasons for hating and misjudging
Germans. 

Many of the correspondents recommended pursuing the line that Nazism
was un-German. Several newsmen specifically advocated using stories
about the Nazi "euthanasia" program, even spreading rumors that
severely wounded soldiers might be put to death. It was certainly
possible to argue that revelations of Nazi killings of Jews and other
victims might widen a split between Germans of conscience and the Nazi
regime and that an American supply of factual information might counter
the effects of Nazi anti-Semitic propaganda. But most of the newsmen
preferred to leave the subject alone or to give it a subordinate
position in any American broadcasts. The military attack went with the
majority when he concluded that it was inadvisable to defend or
champion the Jewish cause vigorously.20

Formulating their recommendations, the newsmen were reticent about what
they actually knew of the Nazi persecution of Jews. They may have
feared that German authorities would seize their papers. Joseph Grigg
of the United Press mentioned in passing that he had made a special
study of the Jewish question in Germany and of German attitudes toward
Jews, but he included hardly any specific comments about persecution in
his responses to the questionnaire.

In the spring of 1942, the interned Americans were exchanged for German
nationals similarly caught in the United States, which soon removed
constraints on what the reporters said and wrote. In the interim,
important information had reached the American press from other
sources. In March 1942, the JTA and The New York Times both reported
that the "Gestapo" had murdered 240,000 Jews deported from Germany and
other parts of Central and Eastern Europe into the Ukraine.
Deportations were continuing, the articles asserted. This information
was obtained by S. Bertrand Jacobsen, an official of the American
Jewish joint Distribution Committee who had served in Budapest for two
years. Jacobsen had talked to Hungarian soldiers who had served in the
conquered Soviet territories, and when he returned to New York, he held
a press conference.

At the beginning of June 1942, Joseph Grigg issued a bleak, detailed
survey of events during the past year in the Baltic region. In Latvia,
SS 91 troops and Latvian irregulars had killed fifty-six thousand
Jewish men, women, and children in several days over the summer of
1941. In Lithuania, special "cleanup" squads that came from Nazi-ruled
Poland disposed of thirty thousand Jews, and Grigg described the
process of machine-gunning victims in prepared graves. In Poland, the
total number killed was at least eighty thousand, a high percentage of
them Jews. Grigg estimated the total number of Jewish victims as at
least two hundred thousand. In a 1942 book he wrote about his
experiences, Frederick Oechsner put the total killed by Nazi execution
squads between the outbreak of war in the East and the spring of 1942
at at least two hundred thousand; the precise total, he wrote, would
never be known. Stadler put the total at more like four hundred
thousand. Both turned out to be low. In contrast, Lochner did not
mention killings of Jews but did describe the deportations and also
condemned the Nazis' barbarous behavior.

Grigg connected the killings with Hitler's public declaration to the
German Peichstag on January 30, 1939, that if the Jews succeeded in
forcing Germany into a war it would lead to the destruction of the Jews
themselves: "those of us who lived in Germany know that he and his
agents have done everything to make the prophecy come true." The
pattern was becoming clear to those who had a feel for the events and
the climate in Nazi-controlled territory.

In June 1942, new reports through the Polish underground also reached
London, and they substantially raised both the death counts and the
visibility of Nazi killings of Jews. Some of this material was
publicized in the United States as well. The most critical report to
reach the public came from the Jewish labor organization in Poland
known as the Bund. Dated May 11, 1942, it left Warsaw on May 21 and
reached the Polish government-in-exile in London, with the aid of
Swedish businessmen traveling between Warsaw and Stockholm, in less
than two weeks. The Bund's report summarized Nazi actions against the
Jews of Poland and put the number already dead at seven hundred
thousand. The rest were in dire danger: 


The above facts prove unquestionably that the German government has
begun to implement Hitler's announcement that five minutes before the
end of the war, whatever the end, he will kill all the Jews in Europe.
Millions of Jewish citizens of Poland face the threat of immediate
extermination.


The Bund requested an immediate Allied response.

The BBC carried the thrust of this story on June 2 and issued a general
directive on June 24 to emphasize it. On June 6, the Polish cabinet
delivered a note to the Allies protesting German crimes in Poland,
including extermination of the Jewish population. Szmul Zygielbojm, the
Bund's representative in London, was able to get a major story based on
the Bund report into 7he Daily Telegraph the next day. It mentioned the
Nazi use of mobile gas chambers .27

On June 29, Ignacy Schwarzbart, the representative of the Zionists on
the Polish National Council, held a press conference in London at which
he announced that one million Jews had already died. The Times of
London and other British newspapers highlighted the story and the
number. A high official in the Polish Ministry of Information told
Schwarzbart: "Hitler murdered many Jews, but you exaggerate the
numbers." Polish Foreign Minister Edward Raczyfiski was also dubious,
influenced in part by the attitudes in the British Foreign Office: "we
had to be absolutely precise and very cautious not to meet with the
criticism that we exaggerated." American reaction was more low-key and
also skeptical. Some American newspapers picked the stories up without
giving them much prominence; others attributed them to Jewish sources.
In a late June Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS) news broadcast from
New York City, however, Quincy Howe cited a World Jewish Congress
estimate that the Germans had already massacred more than one million
Jews since the fall of 1939.

Around the same time, another secret account, complementing the Bund
report, emerged from Poland. A number of British soldiers trapped in
Warsaw had found shelter in the ghetto. In mid-June 1942, one of them
escaped and managed to get to neutral Lisbon within two weeks.
Presumably, British officials debriefed him in Lisbon and later in
Britain, but those records are not known to be available. An American
official in Lisbon, however, talked to the escapee and wrote up a
summary of his experiences and conclusions. (Circumstantial evidence
suggests that the American was Gerald M. Mayer, a former newsman for
NBC fluent in German, then on his way to Switzerland to run an outpost
for the American Office of War Information.) The American report began:



Germany no longer persecutes the Jews. It is systematically
exterminating them. The new racist policy, which in cold calculated
cruelty surpasses the horrors of Magdeburg [destroyed during the Thirty
Years' War] or Carthage, was revealed to me by a British officer who
escaped the bell of the Himmler ghetto in Warsaw. For several months
now, the Third Reich has been brutally destroying the Jewish population
by two effective means: starvation and mass execution.


The remainder of the five-page document recounted some of what the
officer had experienced and much that he had heard. There were
exaggerations, some inaccuracies, and major gaps. The officer reported
a trial shooting at Sobibor, but he could not have known of gassings
there--they had not yet begun when he escaped. He assumed that the
ghettos were themselves the major sites of destruction, working through
starvation, disease, and occasional shootings. Still, the officer
learned that Himmler had visited Warsaw that spring and insisted on
complete extermination of theJews. Himmler had allegedly said that they
were not disappearing fast enough to please the Führer.

This officer's comments made their way from the American in Lisbon to
American intelligence officials, and they presumably reached British
intelligence as well. But there is no sign of an immediate effect. The
information was not, apparently, used to affect Allied policy toward
the fate of Jews then being deported from Western Europe into Poland.
The American official in Lisbon followed up, however, with another
article on Nazi extermination of the Jews several months later--this
one written from a spot (presumably in Switzerland) on the German
frontier: 


The exact date when Hitler decided to wipe the Jews [sic] from the
surface of Europe in the most literal sense of the word, namely by
killing them, is unknown. Evacuations and deportations accompanied by
executions date as far back as the Polish campaign, but the organized
wholesale slaughter of whole communities and trainloads of Jews appears
to have been practised not before the German attack on Russia.


This account culminated with a description of the killing of Jewish
women and children outside Minsk in gas vans, though the author thought
that phosgene gas, not carbon monoxide, was the killing agent.

Footnotes not included
Copyright © 1998 Richard Breitman

TOP


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:03 EDT 2001
Article: 919718 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2
Supersedes: <300620011516146776%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 15:18:53 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 37
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In article <3B3D52D0.F9F2331B@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> No. Mr. Phillips does not mean any such thing. He means that Doenitz was
> no "criminal" of any kind. H was a serving officer loyal to his country
> who was hanged for being on the losing side.
> 
> =================================================

Unless you are being ironic, which I doubt, you have your facts wrong.
Doenitz was sentenced to ten years in prison, after which he was
released and lived a long life, dying in 1980 at the age of 89:

Source: http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Doenitz.html

Doenitz, Karl
 
 
(dön´ts) (KEY) , 1891­1980, German admiral. He secretly planned a
German submarine fleet in the years following the Treaty of Versailles,
was given command of submarine operations by Adolf Hitler in 1935, and
replaced Admiral Raeder in 1943 as chief naval commander. On the
announcement (May 1, 1945) that Hitler was dead and had designated
Doenitz his successor, the admiral formed a new cabinet and ordered the
unconditional surrender (effective May 7) of Germany to the Allies. His
government, at Kiel, was dissolved by the Allies. Doenitz was
imprisoned (1946­56) for war crimes. His memoirs appeared in 1958 (tr.
1959).

*********************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:03 EDT 2001
Article: 919740 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:04:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 68
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In article <3B3DBC26.8E13BFD5@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
>

> > >
> > > =================================================
> >
> > Unless you are being ironic, which I doubt, you have your facts wrong.
> > Doenitz was sentenced to ten years in prison, after which he was
> > released and lived a long life, dying in 1980 at the age of 89:
> 
> ============================
> Phillips
> 
> I stand corrected
> 
> =============================

Fine.
 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> THESE were   "war crimes?"
> 
> =======================

Doenitz's misfortune was to wind up twice in his life being given the
dubious honor of being ordered to take charge of other people's sacks
of shit. I think that the relatively mild sentence he was given at
Nuremberg, reflects recognition of this. When he took over the command
of the Gemran Navy in 1943 as well as when he took over the government
>from Hitler in 1945 he was in the position of the man who happens to be
holding the bag of money when the police arrive at a botched bank
robbery. That makes him an accomplice.

To Doenitz's credit, with Himmler, Göring, Hitler and other Nazi
leaders either discredited or dead, he assumed responsibility for
running a traumatized, bleeding, and leaderess country, knowing full
well that be doing so, he assured that he would be in the dock for the
war crimes Germany had committed before he had been given any executive
power. His did not form a government of the second-order Nazis
officials that Hitler had bequeathed him, but rather used his three
weeks in power to de-Nazify the government, surrender, and preside over
an orderly transition of power to the Alllies before himself being
arrested.

Doenitz was tried at Nuremberg charged with and found guilty of
participation in the planning and waging of a war of aggression. As
commander-in-chief of the German Navy starting January 30, 1943, he
inherited responsibility for one component of a war, the goal of which
was to aggressively conquer and ethnically cleanse territory, a type of
warfare specifically forbidden by international conventions to which
Germany was a party. So, on the one hand he was just doing his job,
being a soldier. On the other hand, the government of the country whose
soldier he was happened to be in the hands of a group of international
thugs who were using its military resources in criminal fashion for
criminal ends.

In American criminal practice, a person demonstrated to have been an
accomplice to a capital crime, even unwittingly, is regarded by the
court as being as guilty as the actual perpetrator and can thus be
sentenced to capital punishment.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:03 EDT 2001
Article: 919743 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Jews with Scotish Names?
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 17:17:53 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <300620011717535763%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <20010629143459.17064.00001165@ng-fe1.aol.com> <3B3CE1E8.7842B308@earthlink.net> <300620010816186714%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B3D77A5.7986826@earthlink.net> <300620011256274107%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B3DBED4.8004D48C@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B3DBED4.8004D48C@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 


> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> My father and his father were not "close"  - to say the least. Consequently I
> know
> surprisingly little about my origins. THe story, as told to me, is that my
> grandfather, when he was asked for his surname by the imigration authorties,
> THOUGHT
> they were asking for his mddle name, which was Philip. i'm not completely satisfied
> with this story.
> ============================================

There probably was a confusion, since people from Russian and Ukrainian
culture don't *have* middle names: they have patronymics: -evich/-ovich
for men, -evna/-ovna for women, as in Mikhael Sergeyevich Gorbachev and
Raisa Maksimovna Gorbacheva, with Sergeyevich and Maksimovna meaningm,
repectively, 'Son of Sergei' and 'Daughter of Maksim'.

So your orignal surname, if your grandfather had one, for not all Jews
in Czarist Russia surnames a hundred years ago, was evidently lost in a
bureacratic snafu, leaving you with an equinamicous but deceptively
Anglo surname.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:04 EDT 2001
Article: 919754 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 18:22:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <300620011822504674%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B3DBC26.8E13BFD5@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> THESE were   "war crimes?"
> 
> =======================

While we're on it, the big news story here in Europe for the past three
days has been the arrest and handing over of former Yugoslav leader
Slobodan Milosevic to a United Nations war crimes tribunal in the
Netherlands.

Your National Socialist state of the future would probably not belong
to the United Nations and would consider itself above international
law. The fates of both Doenitz and Milosevic indicate that you can shut
yourself out of the world community and pretend you are going your own
way, but the world community will continue to consider you bound by
certain basic rules and norms of internationsal behavior, and that it
has a long enough arm and sufficient clout to ensure that its
viewpoints are enforced.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:04 EDT 2001
Article: 919784 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2
Supersedes: <300620012008416657%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 20:19:42 +0300
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In article <3B3DE857.FD0DE76D@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 


> >
> > Doenitz's misfortune was to wind up twice in his life being given the
> > dubious honor of being ordered to take charge of other people's sacks
> > of shit. I think that the relatively mild sentence
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> MILD sentence. I've yet to be convinced that he deserved any at all, but I'll
> continue reading.
> 
> ============================================

Compared to what the rest of the leadership got, Doenitz got a mild
sentence:

Websource:
http://www.bxscience.edu/organizations/holocaust/edguide/trial.html

[Note: this website is that of the Holocaust Museum at my former high
school. Its banner reads: 
"THE STUART S. ELENKO COLLECTION" HOLOCAUST MUSEUM &  STUDIES CENTER
B r o n x    H i g h    S c h o o l    o f    S c i e n c e 
Founded in 1978 - one of the first Holocaust Museums in the nation]


THE ACCUSED (AGE) VERDICT  PUNISHMENT 


Hermann Goering (53) Guilty on all four counts  Death
Rudolf Hess (52)  Guilty on counts 1 & 2  Life imprisonment
Joachim von Ribbentrob (53)   Guilty on all four counts  Death 
Wilhelm Keitel (64)  Guilty on all four counts  Death
Ernst Kaltenbrunner (43)   Guilty on counts 3 &4   Death
Alfred Rosenberg (53)   Guilty on all four counts  Death
Hans Frank (46)   Guilty on counts 3 & 4  Death
Wilhelm Frick (69)   Guilty on counts 2,3,& 4   Death
Julius Streicher (61)   Guilty on count 4 Death
Walther Funk (56) Guilty on counts 2,3, & 4  Life imprisonment
Hjalmar Schacht (69) Not guilty  Acquitted
**********************************************************
Karl Doenitz (55) Guilty on counts 2 & 3  Ten Years
**********************************************************
Erich Raeder (70) Guilty on counts 2,3, & 4  Life imprisonment
Baldur von Schirach (39)   Guilty on count 4 Twenty years
Fritz Sauckel (51)   Guilty on counts 2 & 4  Death
Alfred Jodl (56)  Guilty on all four counts  Death
Franz von Papen   Not guilty  Acquitted
Artur Seyss-Inquart (54)   Guilty on counts 2,3, & 4  Death
Albert Speer (41) Guilty on counts 3 & 4  Twenty years
Constantin von Neurath (73)   Guilty on all four counts  Fifteen years
Hans Fritzsche (46)  Not guilty  Acquitted
Martin Bormann (45; in absentia) Guilty on counts 3 &4   Death


SOURCE: Louis L. Snyder. Encyclopedia of the Third Reich. New York:
McGraw- Hill, Inc., 1976. P. 256. 

> 
> > he was given at
> > Nuremberg, reflects recognition of this. When he took over the command
> > of the Gemran Navy in 1943 as well as when he took over the government
> > from Hitler in 1945 he was in the position of the man who happens to be
> > holding the bag of money when the police arrive at a botched bank
> > robbery. That makes him an accomplice.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> ACCOMPLICE??? Was Lockwood, the commander of the US submarine fleet an
> "accomplice."
> 
> It seems to me we are taking the position that that the whole German war
> effort was a fundamentally criminal undrtaking. THAT is victor's "justice."
> 
> ====================================================

It's not that simple. 

Q. Why was the US waging a submarine war against Japan? 
A. Because Japan had decided to solve its outstanding differences with
the US by launching an all-out military attack. US submarine warfare
against the Japanese was a justified defensive response to unjustified
Japanese aggression.

Q. Why was Germany waging a submarine war against virtually every navy
in the world?
A. Because Germany had sneak-attacked Poland thereby precipitating a
declaration of war on it by Poland's allies, the UK and France. Not
satisifed with that, it had attacked and occupied most of its neighbors.
Not satisfied with that, it had attacked and occupied the neighbors of
most of its neighbors. Not satisfied with that, it had attacked the
USSR. Not satisfied with that, it stood by its ally, Japan, in the same
manner as Poland's allies had stood by it, and declared war on the
United States. Germany's submarine warfare was intrinsically offensive
in the same manner as the first move in a chess game by a white piece
is intrinsically offensive.


> >
> > To Doenitz's credit, with Himmler, Göring, Hitler and other Nazi
> > leaders either discredited or dead, he assumed responsibility for
> > running a traumatized, bleeding, and leaderess country, knowing full
> > well that by doing so, he assured that he would be in the dock for the
> > war crimes Germany had committed before he had been given any executive
> > power. He did not form a government of the second-order Nazis
> > officials that Hitler had bequeathed him, but rather used his three
> > weeks in power to de-Nazify the government, surrender, and preside over
> > an orderly transition of power to the Alllies before himself being
> > arrested.
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> And for THAT they gave him ten years.
> 
> ================================

Well, they couldn't have acquitted him, like they did small-fry such as
von Papen and Fritzsche, and they couldn't hang him, like they did
General Jodl. The Germans were proven to the satisfaction of the world
community to have been planning and waging a war of opportunistic
attack, invasion, and colonization. Doenitz was proven to have been in
charge of the planning and implementation of the naval platform of this
war from January 30, 1043 until April 30, 1945. He was a *big fish*.

Given the punishments that the other main figures received, Doenitz's
ten year sentence was a slap on the wrists which obviously took into
consideration the factys that he was first and foremost a soldier doing
his job, and that he reversed Hiler's nihilistic 'never surrender'
policy and got Germany out of the war as fast as was humanly possible
when this responsibility fell into his lap.


> > Doenitz was tried at Nuremberg charged with and found guilty of
> > participation in the planning and waging of a war of aggression. As
> > commander-in-chief of the German Navy starting January 30, 1943, he
> > inherited responsibility for one component of a war, the goal of which
> > was to aggressively conquer and ethnically cleanse territory, a type of
> > warfare specifically forbidden by international conventions to which
> > Germany was a party. So, on the one hand he was just doing his job,
> > being a soldier. On the other hand, the government of the country whose
> > soldier he was happened to be in the hands of a group of international
> > thugs who were using its military resources in criminal fashion for
> > criminal ends.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It has pretty much always been the case that the loser pays a penalty; loss of
> one or more provinces, payment of an indemnity. But I know of no precedent
> whereby the victor is empowered to make a moral judgement on the loser in
> which they pronounce his entire war effort to have been a criminal enterprise.

Slobodan Milosovic is on the verge of being tried on similar grounds.
Japanese General Hideki Tojo met a fate similar to that met by the
surviving Nazi leadership and was hanged in 1948. 


>> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is a precedent whose scope and implications I find singlarly disturbing.

Although I think I understand some of your concerns, I nevertheless
bend towards making it a universally recognized principle enforced by
the collective will of the world community that genocide, ethnic
cleansing, and wars of opportunistic colonization are not internal
affairs, but rather crimes against humanity which can and will be
punished. National sovereignty is not a license to kill within one's
own
boundaries, and certainly not one to kill in other countries.

>> ============================================
> Phillips
>  
> --It could certainly have been leveled at th American government for its long
> war against the Indians: eg Jackson's ethnic cleansing, massacre at Wounded
> Knee, etc.

Correct. Actions such as A. Jackson's and W. H. Harrison's "Injun
killing", the extermination of the Tasmanians in Australia, or King
Leopold's massacre of several million natives in the Congo at the end
of the 19th century were regarded as the normal stuff of nation
building at one time. We have become a bit more civilized during the
past half century, and would like to consider actions such as the
ethnic cleansings in Cambodia, Kurdistan, Palestine, and Bosnia as the
last relicts of a type of behavior that history has overcome rather
than as an acceptable form of behavior.


>> ============================================
> Phillips
>  
> --It could certainly have been leveled at Stalinist Russia for what the Red
> Army did in Poland and th Baltic countries. The only reason it wasn't was
> because Russia was on th winning side. That is what I mean when I call it
> victor's justice.
> 
> ===========================================

You are right to soem degree. In 1939 Stalin's USSR attacked Poland in
Finland in as criminal a manner as Nazi Germany took on most of the
world. In 1940 and again in 1944 it forcibly incorporated the three
Baltic countries into the USSR, killing or deporting hundreds of
thousands of people and, after 1944, carrying on a form of soft ethnic
cleansing by diluting native populations by massive immigration from
other Soviet republics. These crimes against humanity were not taken up
after the war, because the Allies appreciated the fact that the USSR,
which took more than 20,000,000 casualties and suffered unprecedented
atrocities had made the major and decisive contribution to defeating
Nazi Germany.

That does not mean that Soviet-era atrocities have been forgotten in
the Baltic countries or elsewhere. In all three of them there have been
conferences and trials aimed at identifying and punishing at least some
of the individuals in the Soviet government who committed atrocities
there during the two Soviet occupations. Former Soviet president
Mikhael
Gorbachev faces arrest and interrogation for murders committed when the
Soviet army shot on unarmed civilians in Vilnius and Riga if he ever
steps foot in a Baltic country. The most celebrated legal treatment
of Soviet-era atrocities in the Baltics up until now has been the trial
and conviction of former Soviet partisan and "war hero" Vasilii
Kononov:

Source: http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/convicts.htm



LATVIA CONVICTS WAR CRIMINAL
ON MURDER OF NINE

By J. Michael Lyons

RIGA - A Riga court last week convicted Soviet hero turned war criminal
77-year-old Vasily Kononov to six years in a maximum security prison
for the murder of nine civilians in the summer of 1944.

A former "Red Partisan" leader during World War II, Kononov was charged
in connection with the wartime raid on the village of Mazie Bati that
left nine dead, including a blacksmith that Kononovs had personally
shot.

Kononov is the third Soviet-era war criminal convicted in Latvia, where
the authorities are presently investigating as many as a dozen other
cases.

His attorney argued Kononov was too old to stand trial, that he could
not get a fair trial in a Latvian court and that, ultimately, he simply
obeyed orders in the fight against the German occupation of Latvia.

Soviet miltary leaders called Kononov a hero for the attack and awarded
him medals.

Protestors carrying signs in Russian picketed the court and a handful
of foreign embassies in recent weeks.

As Kononov entered the court room last Friday for the verdict,
protestors reportedly shouted "Down with Facism" and "Death to the
Court."

Human rights activist Nils Muiznieks says war crimes abuses have to be
tried now while the perpetrators are still alive.

"It's important to take this step before the memory of them fades
completely," he said.

But the Russian Foreign Ministry, as expected, lashed out at Latvia for
Kononov's conviction, calling it a "cynical scoffing at the memory of
millions of Nazi victims," according to the Russian news agency
ITAR-TASS.

"An anti-Facist fighter has been convicted, and the trial creates a
dangerous precedent that could grow into a massive witch hunt," the
Ministry continued.

Latvia is fast becoming the former Soviet Union's most vigilant war
crimes hunter. 

A Latvian court last year sentenced former Soviet security policeman
Mikhails Farbtuhs, 83, to seven years in prison after he was found
guilty for the deaths of 31 people - members of the intelligentsia, the
Latvian national militia, and others whom he helped deport to Siberia
and who later died in transit, in labor camps or were murdered.

Former security police head Alfons Noviks, who directed the second wave
of deportations here in 1949, died in March 1996 while serving a life
sentence.

None of the alleged war criminals expected to stand trial are linked
with Nazi atrocities wrought in Latvia during the German occupation, a
fact of tedious and often quiet debate among Latvians but fodder for
diplomatic hazing by the Russian government.

The Russian Foreign Ministry asked this week what many have been
wondering since the vigilant hunt for Soviet war criminals began - what
about the Nazi war criminals?

"This obviously political trial is a profanation with the backdrop of
Latvia's passivity towards collaborators who are linked to Nazi war
crimes," the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs told the Russian news
agency ITAR-TASS.

Latvia has been the center of international attention in recent weeks
as the case of Konrads Kalejs, wanted for the alleged murder of
thousands of Latvian Jews as a member of the Nazi-backed Arajs
Commandos from 1941-1944, has presented the country with a world stage
on which to act.

Muiznieks thinks it should. "I would like to see Latvian authorities
pursue war criminals with a tainted past from the Nazi occupation the
same as they do Soviet war criminals," he said. Unlike those charged
and convicted for Soviet war crimes, Kalejs, who denies the
charges against him, is Latvian.

He is currently residing in Australia.

Under pressure from foreign governments and Nazi hunting organizations,
the Latvian government has said it will prosecute him if it gathers
enough evidence.

Muiznieks and others point to Latvia's historical role as a victim in
European geo-politics to explain the seeming reluctance to prosecute
Latvians for war crimes.

But the Kalejs case and the prosecution of Soviet war criminals has
begun a dialogue long reserved in Latvia for quiet corners.

"People here are slowly begining to talk about these things," said
Muiznieks.

The Baltic Times 

<(quote>

These are difficult issues that cannot be reduced to anything as
simplistic as "victors' justice".


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:05 EDT 2001
Article: 919813 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic vs Scandinavian (Was: Are monarchies - thrash?)
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 22:06:07 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B3E2CB3.2E8B1887@SPAM_iobox.fi>, HWM
 wrote:

> "Niklas Tötterman" wrote:
> 
> > >They use too much/too fresh hops. Too bitter - comes up.
> > 
> > True for Urquel. Haven't noticed this in other brands though.
> 
> Well, i taste mildew in some German and Belgian beers, but I've found
> interesting ones in France, like the C'hti.

Which, pronounced phonetically, is "shitty"?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:05 EDT 2001
Article: 920001 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!howland.erols.net!portc.blue.aol.com.MISMATCH!portc01.blue.aol.com!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pogroms : U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 15:42:47 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B3EA061.FFF3ACFA@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> The principal thing I have learned about the Holocaust story is its remarkable
> flexibility, how easily the details change to meet the day-to-day tactical
> tactical needs of debate.
> 
> ============================

The Holocaust involved more than ten million people in more than
fifteen countries over a period of almost six years. During this time
Germany's status changed from that of aggressor, to master of Europe,
to challenged master of Europe, to ex-master of Europe, to social
collapse and eventual total military defeat. 

Given such a kaleidoscope of circumstances, do you find it strange, for
example, that the Jews of Estonia were killed primarily by the Security
Police, those in Latvia by Einsatzkommandos and local fascist
paramilitary groupings, those of Lithuania by Einsatzkomamndos, local
fascist paramilitary groupings, and partisans, those of Poland in death
camps in their own country, those of Norway and Greece in Polish death
camps to which they were transported, and those of Denmark, Finland,
and Bulgaria not at all, leaving their Jewish citizens alone being the
price these three countries exacted from Germany for the various forms
of political and military collaboration they provided? It would be
simple-minded to the extreme to assume that the Germans could just
march into any country and start rounding up and killing the local Jews
without somebody making an issue of it. The best example of what I mean
is provided by Hungary. 

Germany put considerable diplomatic pressure on Hungary to hand over
its 800,000 Jews for deportation to extermination camps, but the
Hungarian government refused to do so. It justified its position by
calling attention to the economic insanity of removing Jews from the
economy, and it even went so far as to grant asylum to Jews who had
fled to Hungary from other parts of Europe. The Germans considered the
their relationship with Hungary to be worth more than gaining access to
Hungary's Jews. However, in March 1944 when Hungary began to make
efforts to extricate itself from the war and was consequently occupied
by German troops, with the anti-German prime minister Miklós Kallay
being replaced by the pro-German Döme Sztojay, deportations of
Hungariasn Jews to Auschwitz and Mauthausen started immediately. Since
Germany's position was weakening, Adolf Eichmann and Heinrich Himmler,
realizing that Hungarian Jews could be used as bargaining chips, 
worked behind the scenes to bargain their lives for trucks and fuel,
while the Swedish diplomat Raoul Wallenberg did his best to save the
Jews of Budapest by issuing them Swedish travel documents. Nothing
comparable to this happened in any other Holocaust country, nor can the
fact that the historical record shows that Hungarian Jews were left in
relative peace until 1944, when the Germans set out to destroy them
with a vengeance, only to see the Hungarian government, the target of
intense internation pressure and a personal appeal from the King of
Sweden, eventually forbid the deportation of Jews in late 1944, be
regarded as an instance of "remarkable flexibility". Circumstances
change, and complex historical processes adapt to them, thus being
modified.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:05 EDT 2001
Article: 920014 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Simple question about the Holocaust to revisionists
Supersedes: <020720010007486355%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 00:13:33 +0300
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If the set of events referred to collectively as the Holocaust was a
series of random actions, with no systematic planning, cause-and-effect
links, or central coordination, why did all three of the people alleged
to have borne the ultimate administrative responsibility for it, Adolf
Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, and Adolf Eichmann, commit suicide or vanish
before they could be interrogated during the last days of the war?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:06 EDT 2001
Article: 920017 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Doenitz
Supersedes: <010720011624311209%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 16:29:09 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B3EA2BF.9F97F5BC@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Allan Matthews wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B3E9E8D.123A2C30@earthlink.net>, rgp777@earthlink.net
> > says...
> > > If that is the case then you should have no difficulty in explaining why
> > > he
> > > deserved any sentence at all
> >
> > He played a leading roll in waging a war of aggression.
> >
> > allan
> > --
> >        allan_matthews@bigfoot.com
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Do you consider any of the following to qualify as 'wars of aggression?'
> 
> (1) Our own war against Mexico in 1845.

Definitely. It was fueled by a lust for territory ("manifest destiny"),
and facilitated by the fact that the Mexican government of the time was
extraordinarily corrupt and inefficient.

> 
> (2) Our war against Spain in 1898

Definitely. This was an opportunistic war fueled by the jingoism
generated by the yellow journalism of William Randolph Hearst's
tabloids.

> 
> (3) The ethnic cleansing of the Cherokees during the Jackson administration

Definitely. This was a classical example of ethnic cleansing. People
come from their homelands half way around the world to invade someone
else's homeland and kill them off.

> 
> (4) The Russian war against  Finland in 1940

It started on November 30, 1939. It was clearly a war of aggression,
but it was skillfully disguised as something else.

In the early 18th century the Russians had invaded what was then
Finnish-inhabited Swedish territory and established a fortress which
eventually grew into St. Petersburg. The surroundings of that city have
always had, and still have, an indigenous Finnish population. When
Finland achieved its independence in 1917, the Finnish-Russian border
was drawn arbitrary along a river in the western outskirts of St.
Petersburg > Petrograd (> Leningrad). With the rise of Hitler's
Germany, the Soviets feared that Finland, politically and economically
close to Germany, might serve as a staging ground for German aggression
agaisnt the USSR. They thus proposed to Finland that the border be
shifted further west, offering large tracts of land further north in
exchange. When the Finns refused to consider the offer, the Soviets
arranged a border fake border incident and used that as a pretext for
attacking Finland. At the same time, a veteran Soviet-resident Finnish
communist, Otto Ville Kuusinen, declared the establishment of a
communist government in the eastern Finnish town of Terijoki, and some
members of the leftist Finnish political establishment supported it.
Thus, during the initial weeks of the war, the Soviets were able to
maintain the ruse that their attack on Finland had been provoked by the
border incident, and that the Soviet army was actually fighting on the
side of left-winged Finns in a civil war, the objective of which was to
replace the Helsinki bourgeoise government with a communist one.

> 
> (5) The Russian invasion of Poland pursuant to their pact with Germany

Definitely, but with some qualification. Germany and the USSR had
reached a secret agreement concerning the partition of Poland in the
negotiations which led to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. The Soviets were
just taking what Germany had promised them when they determined the
fate of Poland in August, 1939.

> (6) THe American bombing of Serbia (an ally in two world wars, let it be
> rmarked)

It was not America, but NATO. NATO was using precision bombing to force
Serbia to stop the systematic ethnic cleansing of Albanians by Serbian
paramilitary groups and the Yugoslav Army in Kosovo. It was not an
unprovoked war of aggression: Serbia was given several warnings that it
would be the object of military action if it failed to take steps to
halt the genocide taking place on its territory.

> 
> (7) The innumerable British colonial wars during the 19th century, especially
> the
> one involving the (REAL) extermination of the Aborigines of (I think) New
> Zealand
> 

The aborigines in New Zealand, the Maoris, were able to exact a good
deal with the British and were not exterminated. New Zealand is
arguably the only British-established colony where the native culture
and language have been preserved to such an extent that they continue
to play a role in the everyday life of the descendants of the European
settlers. New Zealanders study the Maori language at school, and they
are familiar with traditional Maori culture, food, and fesivals. You
are thinking about Australia, most of whose aboriginal population was
exterminated. The Tasmanians were killed to the last man during
the 1840s.

These were wars of aggression and would have been illegal by today's
standards. British, German, Dutch, and Belgian colonial practice was
generally exclusivist and exterminationist, while French, Spanish, and
Portuguese colonial practice was more inclusivist and integrationist.
Rather than exterminate the native populations, the latter three
countries usually tried to convert them to Christianity and "civilize"
them. There are exceptions, of course, but the general rule holds. It
probably has something to do with the difference between Protestant and
Roman Catholic ways of thinking and doing things.

> I could go on but thee will do for starters.
> 
> =========================================

It was a good, thought-provoking list.

Regards, 
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:06 EDT 2001
Article: 920070 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Doenitz
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 19:31:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 34
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In article <3B3F31CE.2CC04C27@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
>
> I would also point out that Doenitz was a serving officer - not quite at the
> top
> planning level and serving officers do ao they're told.
> 
> ====================================

You've got your facts wrong again. Just like the Holocaust, Doentiz's
wartime career had different phases.

When the war begain in 1939 Dönitz was a rear admiral, a serving
officer, as you put it.

In 1943 Dönitz was promoted to Grand Admiral and assigned to the
position of Commander in Chief of the German Navy on January 30. From
then up until May 1, 1945, when he assumed the responsibilities of head
of state, two years and three months, Dönitz was at the top planning
and command level. He was thus heavily involved in the continued waging
of an aggressive war, even if he was not one of the persons who had
planned or initiated its first stages. This was taken into
consideration at Nuremberg where the other survivors of the top
planning level, Alfred Jodl, Chief of Operations, and Wilhelm Keitel,
Chief of Staff of the High Command, received the death penalty, with
Dönitz receiving a relatively light ten year sentence.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:06 EDT 2001
Article: 920072 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pogroms : U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 19:46:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 35
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In article <3B3F3044.1AE948E5@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 
> The following is a list of the various claims that have been made over the
> years
> regarding deaths at Auschwitz. Now I ask you: is it possible to look at a
> thing
> like this and NOT get just a wee bit suspicious.
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------

Estimates of the number of people killed at Hiroshima range from 40,000
to 150,000. For the fire-bombing of Dresden I've seen figures from
18,000 to 350,000. For the number of Soviet citizens killed in WW II
20,000,000 to 30,000,000. Estimates of the present population of the
United States even have an error range of some 5% due to illegals and
people who have opted out of society.

Since you have a science background, you should know that when dealing
with extremely large numbers, the order of magnitude is more important
than the mantissa. For Auschwitz it is 10E6 for all estimates,
while,for the other death camps - Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor,
and Treblinka it is 10E5, with the figures for Belzec and Treblinka
rounding off to 10E6. Some idea of the number of people killed at one
camp, Treblinka, is given by the fact that banking records show that
its commandant, Franz Stangl, deposited $2.800,000, £400,000, SUR
12,000,000, 145 kg. of gold, and 4,000 carats of diamonds confiscated
>from people killed there in the SS bank account.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:07 EDT 2001
Article: 920095 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Intro to Revisionism by Dr. Butz
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 22:13:36 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <010720012213369844%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <20010630013321.18405.00001824@ng-fl1.aol.com>, Philip
Mathews  wrote:

> In >Message-id: <3B3D558E.DAF75052@earthlink.net>
> 
>
> >> >Could not a similar thing have been said about Galileo?
> >>
> >> No, Galileo was not dealing in historical fact.
> 
> >
> >What's the difference.
> 
> History is not science.

That is a rather strong claim. History is not a natural science, but it
does deal with empirical evidence, hypotheses, and explatory models,
theories, which can be proven and disproven.

The work of doing history has two important scientific aspects:
- factography: locating, recording, and evaluating the empirical facts
generated by historical events;
- nomothesis: using these facts to construct more general theoretical
models to serve as interpretations and explanations of the historical
events that generated them.

Due to the fact that most of the facts generated by historical events
are the result of complex and often irrational human actions rather
than of natural laws, the theoretical models produced by historians do
not have the rigor or apparent exactness of those produced within the
experimental sciences, but they _can_ be tested, falsified, and
modified in the light of new evidence, this being the ultimate test of
whether a body of knowledge qualifies as being scientific and the
discipline producing it a science.

With respect to the Holocaust, the factographic aspect of its study
involves evaluating the masses of evidence indicating that the Jews of
Europe were subjected to a catastrophic series of events that began
with the accession to power of Adolf Hitler in January, 1933, and ended
with the military collapse of Germany in May 1945. This evidence
includes information about such historical events and entities as:
€ anti-Jewish legislation such as the Nuremberg Laws, 
€ pogroms such as Reichskristallnacht in 1938, 
€ programs to rid Europe of Jews, such as the Madagascar plan, and,
more generatlly, to rid German society of undesirables such as the mass
sterlization project and the T-4 Euthanasia program, 
€ Nazi-era administrative structures such as the SS and the RSHA, 
€ military campaigns, such as the attacks on Poland and the USSR,
€ German occupation policy in countries it attacked and occupied,
€ the chemical properties of Zyklon B and the manner in which it was
used by the Nazis, 
€ diet planning, such as the affect on the human organism of the
Auschwitz diet, 
€ architectural plans and building diagrams produced by another culture
more than 55 years ago under conditions requiring that any structures
used for criminal intent be obfuscated, 
€ gas chamber technology, particularly the ability to understand what
would constitute a minimalist gas chamber,
€ forensic science, particularly the ability to evaluate and understand
competing forensic analyses of the same structure,
€ foreign language skills, such as the ability to read and interpret
German documents and understand the speeches made by German leaders, 
€ diplomacy policy, such as Germany's policy towards the Jews in
countries that were allied with it,
€ economics, such as the relative advantage of killing vs. enslaving
Jews,
€ biography, such as the career development of major figures in German
government organizations,
€ philosophy, such as an understanding of the racial beliefs underlying
the entire nazi enterprise.

 These and many other types of facts and knowledge provide a basis
which can be used to construct a hypothetical model of the series of
historical events that have come to be referred to as the Holocaust.
Researchers give some factors more importance than others, and varying
descriptive and explanatory models of the Holocaust will thus be
generated, some of which will be more internally consistant and
comprehensive than others. Once again, this is scientific activity and,
in this respect, history is a science.

Various scientific theories of the Holocaust claim:
1. That it never happened, that is to say, all of the evidence that the
Nazis killed Jews or that they had a reason to do so is provable false.

This theory is easily falsified by the massive amount of empirical
data to the contrary, for reasons that we need not go into here, but it
should still be mentioned, because there are people, Holocaust Deniers,
who present and defend such views.

2. That it happened, but not as a controlled, systematic process, but
rather as a result of random, spontaneous, opportunistic, and
unconnected events which resulted in millions of civilians dying or
being killed, many of them Jews, but which was not the result of any
specific plan of extermination.

3. That it happened and reveals so many links between the field where
it was being implemented and the administrative structures that were
coordinating the implementation that it can only be understood as the
result of a systematic plan, the scope and implementation of which
changed in accordance with the number of Jews in territory under German
control.


The serious scientific debate is between viewpoints 2 and 3, with 3
being the mainstream, "standard" interpretative model of the facts, and
various versions of 2 being the alternative "revisionist" models.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:07 EDT 2001
Article: 920242 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Simple question about the Holocaust to revisionists
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 06:32:18 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B3F898F.59753D76@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > If the set of events referred to collectively as the Holocaust was a
> > series of random actions, with no systematic planning, cause-and-effect
> > links, or central coordination, why did all three of the people alleged
> > to have borne the ultimate administrative responsibility for it, Adolf
> > Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, and Adolf Eichmann, commit suicide or vanish
> > before they could be interrogated during the last days of the war?

> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> To begin with, it is my recollection that Eichmann was hanged by the
> Israelis.

But only in 1962, after being apprehended by the Israelis in Argentina
the previous year. Like Hoess and Himmler, Eichmann had assumed a new
identity. Unlike them, he succeeded in getting out of Europe and
starting a new life under a new name in another country. Why would a
man go to such extraordinary lengths if he had nothing to hide?


> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> As for the other two, they knew perfectly well that their fate an Allied
> hands would be the rope. Thus, by committing suicide they underwent no
> worse a fate than thy would otherwise have experienced, and also deprived
> the Allies of  the fun of the show trial they had planned.

If the Holocaust did not take place, they had nothing to hide and would
at least have been given their day in court. Reichsmarschall Hermann
Göring, who was also deeply involved in the Holocaust, surrendered
graciously to the Americans and tried to argue in Nuremberg that Berlin
had been unaware of the "brutal mass murders" of Jews that took place
in the territory conquered by Germany:

Source: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Goering_judgment.htm

Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Trial of German
Major War Criminals. London: HMSO, 1966, pp.84-86

Nuremberg Judment

GOERING


As Plenipotentiary, Goering was the active authority in the spoliation
of conquered territory. He made plans for the spoliation of Soviet
territory Œlong before the war on the Soviet Union. Two months prior to
the invasion of the Soviet Union, Hitler gave Goering the over-all
direction for the economic administration in the territory. Goering set
up an economic staff for this function. As Reichsmarshal of the Greater
German Reich, "the orders of the Reichmarshal cover all economic
fields, including nutrition and agriculture." His so-called "Green"
folder, printed by the Wehrmacht, set up an "Economic Executive Staff,
East." This directive contemplated plundering and abandonment of all
industry in the food deficit regions and, from the food surplus
regions, a diversion of food to German needs. Goering claims its
purposes have been misunderstood but admits "that as a matter of course
and a matter of duty we would have used Russia for our purposes," when
conquered.

And he participated in the conference of 16th July, 1941, when Hitler
said the National Socialists had no intention of ever leaving the
occupied countries, and that "all necessary measures‹shooting,
desettling, etc.‹" should be taken. 

Goering persecuted the Jews, particularly after the November, 1938
riots, and not only in Germany where he raised the billion mark fine as
stated elsewhere, Œbut in the conquered territories as well. His own
utterances then and his testimony now show this interest was primarily
economic‹-how to get their property and how to force them out of the
economic life of Europe. As these countries fell before the German
army, he extended the Reich¹s anti-Jewish laws to them ; the
Reichsgesetzblatt for 1939, 1940, and 1941 contains several anti-Jewish
decrees signed by Goering. Although their extermination was in
Himmler¹s hands, Goering was far from disinterested or inactive,
despite his protestations in the witness box. By decree of 31st July,
1941, he directed Himmler and Heydrich to bring "about a complete
solution of the Jewish question in the German sphere of influence in
Europe."

There is nothing to be said in mitigation. For Goering was often,
indeed almost always, the moving force, second only to his leader. He
was the leading war aggressor, both as political and as military
leader; he was the director of the slave labour programme and the
creator of the oppressive programme against the Jews and other races,
at home and abroad. All of these crimes he has frankly admitted. On
some specific cases there may be conflict of testimony, but in terms of
the broad outline, his own admissions are more than sufficiently wide
to be conclusive of his guilt. His guilt is unique in its enormity. The
record discloses no excuses for this man.



How was this a show trial?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:07 EDT 2001
Article: 920255 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Question: The 'Wolzek' Paradox" by J. McCarthy
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 07:19:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <73fedc95.0107011737.258359ef@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

>  The independently verifiable evidence is contained in the
> writings themselves.  Hoess is supposed to have said he visited
> Treblinka in 1941--Treblinka didn't exist in 1941.  Check with any of
> your favorite Holocaust promoting websites. 

Correct. Hoess made a mistake. Treblinka opened for business in July
23, 1942:

Source: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html


July 22, 1942 - Beginning of deportations from the Warsaw Ghetto to the
new extermination camp, Treblinka. Also, beginning of the deportation
of Belgian Jews to Auschwitz. 

July 23, 1942 - Treblinka extermination camp opened in occupied Poland,
east of Warsaw. The camp is fitted with two buildings containing 10 gas
chambers, each holding 200 persons. Carbon monoxide gas is piped in
>from engines placed outside the chamber, but Zyklon-B will later be
substituted. Bodies are burned in open pits.



> Hoess is supposed to have
> said there was a camp named Wolzek in 1941--there never was a camp
> named Wolzek, ever. 

Correct. There was, however, a camp named Sobibor, never mentioned by
Hoess, located in precisely the same place as the camp that Hoess calls
Wolzek.


> Check with any one of your favorite Holocaust
> promoting sites. Hoess is supposed to have said he saw people being
> killed with diesel exhaust in 1941--diesel exhaust is not lethal.  Ask
> any truck driver or mine worker. 

Diesel exhaust from a clean-running modern diesel engine is not lethal.
It *is* lethal if it is the only source of ambient air in an airtight
room, and it can be made lethal, even without an airtight room, by
simply restricting the air intake and thus increasing the CO content. 

Source: http://www.satanservice.org/coe/suicide/guide/ 

A Practical Guide to Suicide



   Automobiles (or any devices with gas or diesel 
   engines) produce adequate quantities of CO.  
   Diverting the exhaust into the passenger cabin of 
   a car gives one the opportunity to die in any 
   variety of places, including a favorite scenic 
   lookout, without putting others at risk.  Since 
   1975 in the US, and 1993 in the UK, passenger 
   cars have been equipped with required catalytic 
   converters.  The goal is to reduce the emission 
   of CO, oxides of nitrogen and unburned hydrocarbons.  
   Depending upon the car, this is accomplished by 
   balancing the tuning of the carburation, use of 
   catalysts in the catalytic converter and injection 
   of oxygen into the exhaust.  The effectiveness of 
   this system depends upon the car being well tuned 
   and the oxygen sensor being in good working order.  
   Increasing the carburetor mixture to "rich" or 
   applying choke by operating a manual choke or by
   defeating the automatic choke, will increase the 
   amount of CO in the exhaust.  Defeating the oxygen 
   sensor (which is designed to fail at 50,000 miles) 
   or removing the catalytic converter will also 
   increase the CO content.  In any event, a well-
   tuned car with emissions controls in place will 
   still produce adequate levels of CO to cause 
   death, but it will take longer.  When piping auto 
   exhaust into a closed auto cabin the floor vents
   should be closed and the windows should be slightly 
   open.  A cold engine will always produce a higher 
   concentration of CO than a hot engine.
   
   Whatever method you choose it should be easy to 
   predict the length of time it takes to produce and 
   collect a lethal level of CO.  You can use  CO 
   detectors (with digital readouts), readily available 
   at any hardware or home supply store, to measure 
   the level of CO accumulated over a period of time 
   and the rate of increase.  It is then easy to 
   extrapolate how long it will take to build up to 
   the concentration you desire.




> Hoess is supposed to have said
> thousands of people were killed at Treblinka--a recent ground radar
> study found not a single grave at Treblinka. 

A picture of a mass grave at Treblinka may be viewed at:
http://holocaust-info.dk/operation_reinhard/imgs_treblinka/mass_grave.ht
m

The Nazis exhumed and burned the bodies at Treblinka. just as they did
elsewhere when they had the opportunity. There is now a "symbolic
cemetery" there:

Source: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka05.html

 
Symbolic cemetery at Treblinka

Just south of the recreated stone train platform, and in front of you
as you are looking southward into the camp with the platform on the
left, is the location of the "burial pits for those who died during
transportation," according to the camp pamphlet.

East of the burial pits, according to the pamphlet, was an "execution
site (disguised as a hospital)." Farther east and half way up the
gentle slope to where the symbolic graveyard now stands, there were "3
old gas chambers" according to the pamphlet, and a short distance to
the north of them were built "10 new gas chambers." According to my
tour guide, the first gas chambers used carbon monoxide, but later some
gas chambers were built which were disguised to look like showers and
used the insecticide known as Zyklon B for gassing.

A short distance farther up the slope to the east of the gas chambers
was located the "cremation pyres" according to a map in the camp
pamphlet. None of the three Operation Reinhard extermination camps, all
of which were located on the Polish border, had a crematorium for
burning the bodies of the dead. Of the other five extermination camps
which were in operation during the same period (Chelmno, Sobibor,
Belzec, Majdanek and Auschwitz-Birkenau), only Auschwitz-Birkenau and
Majdanek, which also functioned as forced labor camps, had
crematoriums.

The first picture below shows a close-up of the stones commemorating
the Jewish victims from Poland and Czechoslovakia. There are a total of
10 such stones with names of countries on them. According to Martin
Gilbert in his book "Holocaust Journey," there were 13,000 Jews
deported here from the Greek provinces of Macedonia and Thrace, which
were then occupied by Bulgaria, so their stone says "Bulgaria."
(Bulgaria was an ally of Nazi Germany, along with Rumania, Hungary,
Croatia, Slovakia, Finland, Italy, Austria, Lithuania, Estonia, and
Latvia.) There is another stone for the 43,000 Greek Jews who were
brought here. At the base of the stones, visitors have placed votive
candles in metal cans, fresh cut flowers and tiny flags of Israel.

The second picture shows a large granite memorial stone, designed to
resemble a Jewish tombstone, which according to the camp pamphlet was
built between 1959 and 1963. It is located approximately on the spot
where the gas chambers stood, according to the tour guide. The view in
the second picture is from the front side of the memorial, and you can
see some of the stones of the symbolic cemetery behind it. Note the
votive candles placed between the cracks and the flowers left at the
base.

The third picture shows the back side of the memorial tombstone,
looking westward towards the memorial stones with 10 country names at
the bottom of the slope. Notice the Menorah at the top of the
tombstone. The large crack down the middle of the stone is part of the
design. Surrounding the huge tombstone are some of the 1,700 small
stones which represent the villages and towns from whence came the
800,000 victims of this Nazi barbarity. 

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka24.jpg
Stones which commemorate the Jewish victims from Poland and
Czechoslovakia

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka25.jpg
Front of stone monument at Treblinka symbolic graveyard

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka26.jpg
Back side of stone monument, surrounded by symbolic grave stones, at
Treblinka

***************
Source: http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka06.html

Stone in honor of Janusz Korczak

Located on a knoll at the top of a gentle slope on the site of the
former Treblinka extermination camp is a large circular area with 1,700
stones of various sizes and colors set into concrete, which represent a
symbolic cemetery. According to a pamphlet which I purchased at the
camp reception center, "The great monument in Treblinka is a homage of
the Polish people to those ashes lie under the concrete plates of the
symbolic cemetery. It is one of the most tragic monuments of martyrdom
in Poland."

My tour guide confirmed that the ashes of the 800,000 people who died
here were placed in this area and are now hidden underneath the
symbolic cemetery and by the grass and tiny flowers which cover the
spot. The map in the camp pamphlet does not specify the exact spot
where the ashes were buried.

The tour guide pointed out one of the 1,700 symbolic stones which
represents the city of Kielce in central Poland, where 42 Jews were
killed by a mob of Polish citizens in a pogrom on July 4, 1946, long
after the Nazi occupation had ended. Today Kielce is a modern
industrial city with a population of 210,000, located between Warsaw
and Krakow. In 1939, the Jewish population was around 25,000, although
until the early 1800s, Jews were barred from living in the city. The
1946 pogrom was the last in Poland; after that most of the 300,000
Polish Holocaust survivors fled the country.

The first picture below shows just one section of the vast collection
of 1,700 stones, representing the cities and villages which were the
home towns of the victims. Only 130 of the stones have place names on
them.

The second picture shows the stone for Janusz Korczak, the only person
to have an individual stone in the symbolic cemetery. Korczak was a
pseudonym for Dr. Henryk Goldzmit. He was a teacher and a social worker
who ran an orphanage in Warsaw. He also did a weekly radio show for
children, and wrote a series of children's books in which the central
character was a boy king named King Matt. In July 1942, he turned down
the opportunity to escape from the Ghetto, and instead accompanied his
orphans to Treblinka where he was murdered along with them. According
to the U.S. Holocaust Museum, Korczak marched with his 192 orphans to
the Umschlagplatz with one child carrying the flag of King Matt with
the Zionist flag on the other side of it.

The third picture below represents the cremation pit where, according
to the camp pamphlet, bodies were burned on "grates." The picture shows
what the pamphlet calls "melted basalt" set on a "concrete fundamental
plate." In the background of the picture, you can see four round
containers where "eternal flames" can be lit on special occasions. The
map in the camp pamphlet shows that there were actually two cremation
pyres, located just east of the 10 new gas chambers. The bodies which
had been previously buried were dug up and cremated on the orders of
Heinrich Himmler, after he visited the camp in 1943, according to
Martin Gilbert. 

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka27.jpg
1,700 stones set in concrete in a circle at the top of hill in former
Treblinka camp

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka28.jpg
Individual stone honors Janusz Korczak who accompanied orphans to
Treblinka

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Poland/Treblinka/Treblinka29.jpg
Memorial stones of basalt recreate pits where bodies were burned in
Treblinka

***************

> These passages contained
> in the Hoess writings which are obviously and demonstrably false are
> clear and convincing evidence that the entire written record of Hoess
> writings are bogus fabrications probably dreamed up by Hoess's
> jailers.

A much better explanation for the discrepancies is that Hoess, not an
educated man, wrote his memoirs in jail without having recourse to his
personal papers, a reference library or an editor. People much more
competent and schooled than Hoess forget or confuse dates and have
trouble remembering names in foreign languages that they do not know.
None of your 'revelations' about Hoess are consistent with your claim
that his writings are "bogus fabrications". Quite the opposite, they
are the sincere record of a man doing the best he can under extremely
arduous circumstances - he knew he was going to be hanged once he
finished the book - to leave a record of his uniquely evil career for
posterity.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:07 EDT 2001
Article: 920264 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 07:39:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article
,
 Jeffrey G. Brown  wrote:

> > (5) Is it possible they might do something that could affect me in a 
> > serious way. It is conceivabl (but hardly likely) that they might enact  a 
> > Nurmburg-type law  forbidding a Jew to marry or cohabit with an Aryan
> > woman. This is
> > concivable but hardly likely.
> 
> Why is that, idiot? The last Nazis that came to power did exactly that. Why 
> should the next Nazis be any different?

And it worked both ways: "interracial" hanky-panky between Aryans and
Jews was forbidden, not just liaisons between Jewish men and Aryan
women. Since the Nazis regarded Jews as a distinct race, almost a
distinct species, they passed these laws to protect the Aryan gene pool
which could, of course, be polluted by Jewish men impregnating Aryan
women just as much as it could by Aryan men impregnating Jewish women,
since both kinds of couplings could produce racial "mongrels".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:08 EDT 2001
Article: 920294 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.startrek,alt.walmart,alt.fan.gozilla
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2?
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:38:10 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 46
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In article <3B3FF8B2.34D52BE7@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =========================================
> Philips
> 
> I disagree entirely. The Second World War was the best thing that ever
> happened to
> us.
> 
> ==================================



1. It resulted in a vast increase in Jewish immigration as well as in a
much more influential, you might even say disproportionate, role for
Jews in defining American culture and policy.

2. It demonstrated that all races could fight together for a common
cause, thus eroding long-standing legal and social barriers to
inter-racial fraternization and paving the way for a truely
multiracial, multicultural American melting pot.

3. It proved that women could do a man's job, thus laying the
groundwork for feminism and challenging traditional patriarchy.

4. It created a situation in which man who had had a creditable
military career but was otherwise not particularly good at or
knowledgeable about anything was rewarded by a greatful nation with the
presidency, allowing the country to fall victim to paranoia and
ill-considered foreign adventures.

5. It resulted in the conception of an exceptionally large number of
children immediately after the war, the majority of which, raised in
accorandance with Dr. Spock's revolutionary child-rearing methods, 
became globally-minded liberal Democrats with little respect for
traditional pre-war American values or traditions as they reached
maturity in the mid 1960s.

With a report card like that, how can a man of your aversions,
prejudices, and preferences see WW II as "the best thing that ever
happened to us"? 

Curiously, 
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:08 EDT 2001
Article: 920297 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Simple question about the Holocaust to revisionists
Supersedes: <020720010946507420%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:53:40 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <20010701233429.29030.00001751@ng-bg1.aol.com>, Johnleewong
 wrote:

>   Was Masada the cowards way out?
>    The Japanese are much admired for often having the guts to have killed
> themselves during ww2 rather than shame themselves and their nation. It takes
> a
> certain amount of courage to put a knife to your gut or a Walther to your
> temple.
>    Is the captain who voluntarily goes down with his ship a coward? The Nazi
> leadership may have been bad; they may have been evil; none of the three
> mentioned ever showed  cowardice. A bad or evil man is not necessarily a
> coward.

Quite nice guys, these so-called leaders were who survived the war but
preferred to abandon their country and people to the victors rather
than at least attempt to explain to the world why they had been doing
what they were alleged to have done. If the allegations were
false, the top leaders of even a defeated country, with all the
resources that such a position has available to it, would have been
able to demonstrate to the world that all of those wicked stories about
mass murders, extermination camps, and systematic genocide were simply
war propaganda with no factual basis whatsoever. That they decided,
instead, to kill themselves or vanish speaks a lot for their having had
something horrible and indefensible to hide.

Regards,
Eugnee Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:08 EDT 2001
Article: 920298 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Supersedes: <020720010915344606%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 09:58:05 +0300
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In article <3B3FE491.4C04AEE1@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have replied to this question several times; however as you are a
> comparative
> newcomer to this NG, you may not have seen any of them.
> 
> I am haardly under any illusions that life under German National Socialism
> would
> have been pleasant for me. What would have been my fate?
> 
> --I might have been one fo the young people helped on their way to Jewish
> Palestine under the transfer arrangement between the Hagana and the SS.
> 
> --If my family had had sufficient money, we might have made our way to the
> States
> 
> --I might have been deported to one fo the camps in Poland where I might have
> 
> -----died of typhus
> 
> -----survivied and ended up as a DP

> =========================================

Don't pussyfoot. You forgot:

------- been gassed on arrival
------- been shot arbitrarily as collective punishment for some
infraction committed by someone you had never even met
------- been hanged for some violation of the rules
------- been starved to death
------- been gassed as somebody not fulfilling his norms
------- been shot in conjunction with camp liberation
------- been deathmarched through the winter forests in a thin prison
uniform, no shoes, and no outer clothing.


Your roots are in the Odessa region. The excerpts below tell what your
fate would more likely have been had your grandparents not made the
fateful decision to emigrate to the US:


Source: http://ebooks.whsmithonline.co.uk/encyclopedia/68/M0011368.htm


In the 18th and 19th centuries, Odessa had a large Jewish community; in
1897, Jews were estimated to comprise some 37% of the population. This
ethnic group was the subject of sustained persecution; anti-Semitic
pogroms were carried out in 1821, 1859, 1871, 1881, and 1905. Many
sought refuge abroad; Odessa became an early centre of Zionism, and the
port was a focus for emigration to Palestine and elsewhere from 1882
onwards. During the Nazi occupation, the entire remaining community was
deported to extermination camps and murdered.


************************************************************

Source: http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewsh15.htm

[Review of Randolph L. Braham, ed. The Destruction of Romanian and
Ukrainian Jews During the Antonescu Era. Social Science Monographs;
East European Monographs, no. 483. Boulder; New York: Columbia
University Press, East Europ. xvi + 413 pp. Bibliographical references.
$60.00 (cloth), ISBN 0-88033-384-7.]


Jean Ancel's chapter on "The Romanian Campaigns of Mass Murder in
Transnistria, 1941-1942" deals not only with what its title suggests,
being rather a succinct monograph about the region under Romanian rule.
It presents the main factors through which Romania exercised its power
as occupier: the army, the gendarmerie, the police, and the Ukrainian
militia. It is only after he has finished drawing such a general
picture that Jean Ancel narrates the destruction of at least a quarter
of a million Jews during the winter of 1941-1942 as part of the general
campaign of "cleansing the ground" (curatirea terenului). Relying
solely on official documents issued by military commanders, prefects,
Governor Alexianu, and the Prime Minister's Office, Ancel presents the
plight of the convoys of Jews gathered from northern Moldavia,
Bukovina, Bessarabia, Transnistria, and Odessa as they were driven to
the crossing points on the Bug and into the hands of the Germans. 

Special attention is given to the camps of Bogdanovka and Domanevka
where Jews were murdered by the thousands or died in the hundreds
decimated by typhus. With a sort of grisly irony, the Romanian forces
proved their inability to handle so many Jews, the latter becoming a
"nightmare" for the local authorities: in November 1941 prefect
Isopescu of Golta district (where Bogdanovka was located) was terrified
at the prospect of "the imminent arrival of tens of thousands more
Jews, even before he had managed to bury the thousands of corpses of
Jews who had already been murdered" (p. 112). 







Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:09 EDT 2001
Article: 920330 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Simple question about the Holocaust to revisionists
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 13:30:05 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B3FF68B.E495589A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I see that, for the six-zillionth time you have chosen to climb up on your
> soapbox and regale us with tales of 55-yeal-old Nazi iniquity. Has it ever
> entered you mind that after a sufficient number of repetitions it might grom
> tiresome.
> 

The excerpt was pertinent to the point being made about whether
Hitler's and Himmler's suicides, and Eichmann's disappearance, as well
as Hoess's, Himmler's, and Eichmann's assumption of false indentities
were cowardly acts. Göring know what was in store for him, but he
surrendered in an honest, almost gracious fashion. He defended himself
and his colleagues at what you imply was a show trial. I produced just
enough of the verdict to show that he was convicted primarily on the
basis of an indisputable paper trail he had been leaving since the late
30s and which was produced as evidence, as well as on the basis of his
own testimony. He admitted that "brutal mass murders" had taken place,
and he expressed a degree of contrition about them.

Göring was the only person among the Nazi leadership who had the
courage to go down with a ship that the rats had abandoned.

> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> In any case we stray from the point. And I think that was Sara's claim that
> thoe who committed suicide took the "coward's" way out. Does Sara think it's
> all that easy to swallow a death pil or to slash your own wrists.
> 
> ============================

It definitely takes courage, and Göring, who beat the hangman by biting
his, made this point with some panache. It is cowardly to the extreme,
if you are a member of the top leadership of a country that you have
led into war and to devastation and defeat due to your own megalomania
to abandon your nation and people by killing yourself or vanishing,
rather than face the music. In better times people were shouting,
almost hysterically, "Deutschland ist Hitler! Hitler ist Deutschland!",
but when Germany lay totally in ruins, with Hitler healthy and still in
possession of his faculties, he scumped out, killing his wife and dog
in spite. 

Hermann Göring was the only man in the top Nazi leadership who had the
balls to stick with his nation in the darkest hour of defeat. He
defended himself and his less confident colleagues brilliantly and
wittily, as everyone who has read the Nuremberg transcripts readily
concedes. Hitler, Himmler, Eichmann, Bormann, and Goebbels did not.
They were cowards, although Eichmann, once caught, did mount up a
credible defense and also demonstrated contrition for what he had been
a party to. I have the tiniest grain of sympathy for Hoess. Although
perhaps the greatest mass murderer in history, he was far down the
chain of command. He went into hiding because he knew that he would be
a fall-guy for the plans and orders of the higher ups, so I would not
regard him as a complete coward. In contrast to Hoess,
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, who, as the Chief of the
Security Police in Ostland, coordinated and oversaw the murder of some
half a million civilians on the Eastern front in the Baltic countries,
Byelorussia, north-western Russia, and the Ukraine, surrendered
graciously to the Allies, showed contrition for the crimes against
humanity that he had coimmitted or was an accessory to, and went to the
gallows like a man.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:09 EDT 2001
Article: 920369 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Simple question about the Holocaust to revisionists
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:24:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article
,
 Jeffrey G. Brown  wrote:

> In article <3B3FF68B.E495589A@earthlink.net>, "Idiot Philllips" 
>  wrote:
> 
> > I see that, for the six-zillionth time you have chosen to climb up on your
> > soapbox and regale us with tales of 55-yeal-old Nazi iniquity. Has it ever
> > entered you mind that after a sufficient number of repetitions it might grom
> > tiresome.
> 
> No, idiot.
> 
> What's tiresome is having to repeatedly explain the course of history to a 
> senile old bigot who is incapable of understanding or retaining what he is
> told.

Richard had the brazen audacity, the unmitigated cheek, to rebuke me
for citing facts, which he dismisses as "tales of iniquity", while
presenting as "facts" his vague recollections of 
€ Grand Admiral Doenitz being a "serving officer" [Message-ID:
<3B3F31CE.2CC04C27@earthlink.net>, Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 15:27:22 GMT]
whose function it is to do as he was told, despite the fact that from
January 30, 1943 until May 1, 1945, Doenitz was the Commander in Chief
of the Führer's Navy, and ofŠ
€ Admiral Doenitz having been tried at Nuremberg and "hanged for being
on the losing side" [Message-ID: <3B3D52D0.F9F2331B@earthlink.net>,
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 05:15:13 GMT], when, in fact, Doenitz received a
relatively light ten year sentence, a slap on the wrist compared to
what his closest associates received, after which he lived for another
24 years, finding time, among other things, to write his memoirs,
before he died in 1980 (see
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0306807645/abitofnazihisto/002-24
99618-5484055 for details).

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:09 EDT 2001
Article: 920370 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,sci.skeptic
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 16:37:38 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , Daedra
Morrighan  wrote:

> National Socialism was and is nothing more
> or less than a mirror image of Judaism. 

Oh no! Does that mean that in addition to blaming the Jews for
communism, capitalism, Judaism, Christianisty, media monopolism,
assorted swindles, innumerable esthetic ribaldries and debaucheries,
lending against interest, double entry book keeping, the kosher tax,
Palestinian atrocities, Holocaust huckstering, male genital
manipulation, kvetschism, schmuckism, schlemieldom, schlemozeldom,
Jewish mothers, kreplakh, matzoh, and gefilte fish, we have to blame
them for Nazism as well? Oi vey is mir!

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul  4 11:11:10 EDT 2001
Article: 920422 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Scandinavia and the Holocaust: basic facts
Supersedes: <020720012035404677%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 21:15:21 +0300
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The four continental Scandinavian (or Nordic) countries, Norway,
Sweden, Denmark, and Finland, were all under Hitler's influence during
WW II, for which reason each of them has a Holocaust history. We seldom
think about any of them as Holocaust countries, and they are not
usually the objects of Holocast research. Nevertheless, they serve as
interesting case studies concerning the systematicity of the Holocaust
and of the intensity of Nazi Germany's determinedness to exterminate
European Jews. Briefly put, the facts are the following.

Norway and Denmark were invaded and occupied by Germany during the
spring of 1940, Sweden was left alone, but became a major supplier of
raw materials and weapons to Germany, while revenge-seeking Finland,
having been attacked the USSR in November 1939 and forced to give up
1/10 of it territory and resettle 1/8 of its population consequent to
the March 1940 peace treaty, joined up with Germany in its attack
against the USSR in June 1941 in a limited and opportunistic alliance
aimed at regaining its lost territory. Thus, we have two countries that
are occupied by Germany, one that is neutral but economically
dependent, and one that is a cobelligerent, a limited ally. All four
had small pre-war, mostly urban, Jewish populations: Norway 1,900;
Denmark 8,000, Sweden 8,000, and Finland 2,300. None of these countries
had a history of anti-Semtiism, or of Jews being regarded as any kind
of a threat. All of them had taken in some Jewish refugees from Central
Europe during the late 1930s.

In Norway the King and legitimate government went into exile, and a
German-sponsored collaborationist goverment under Nazi sympathizer
Vidkun Quisling was established. Norway became a part of the Reich.
Norwegian Jews were made to register, but they were able to lead a
normal life and did not, as was the case in most other occupied
countries, have to wear a yellow star. About 900 Norwegian Jews managed
to escape to neutral Sweden during 1941, On November 25, 1942, with no
warning whatsoever, there was a midday raid on Jewish homes as well as
on schools and workplaces where Jews were known to be and 762 Jews of
all ages, from babies to the eldest were arrested. They were informed
that their citizenship, property, and assets were being taken away from
them, and that they would never be allowed to set foot in Norway again.
Carefully preserved transit records indicate that they were shipped to
Danzig, where a train was waiting to take them to the Auschwitz camp
where almost all of them were killed or perished. For further details,
see http://home.online.no/~bbruland/index.html.

In Denmark the King and legitimate government made an agreement with
the Germans which allowed Denmark, intially at least, to retain its
independence. Although the Germans made no demand on Denmark to pass
anti-Semitic legislation or hand over its Jews, by 1943 Danish
underground resistance and growing German exasperation at the
situation in the country resulted in the Germans imposing anti-Semitic
legislation on the country. By this time, howver, most Danish Jews had
escaped to Sweden through the connivance of the Danish Coast Guard
and Germans in the occupation structures who were sympathetic
to the Jewish cause and able to warn them in advance of anti-Jewish
measures to be taken. Although the situation in Denmark deteriorated
into something approximating that in other occupied countries, with the
Nazis starting to arrest and deport the Jews that remained in Denmark,
the Danish government was able to work out a deal that the
approximately 500, mostly elderly, Danish Jews sent to the
Theresienstadt "model" concentration camp outside of Prague would be
treated decently and not be sent to extermination camps. For further
details see http://www.natmus.dk/frihedsmuseet/faq2/faq2.htm

In Finland, the eastern border of which was the northern front of
Operation Barbarossa, as many as half a million German troops were
stationed. Shortly after he had visited the newly opened
extrmination camps in occupied Poland in the spring of 1942
Reichsführeer-SS Heinrich Himmler visited Finland and made discrete
inquiries about solving the "Jewish Problem". He was informed
emphatically that Finland had no Jewish problem and did not, according
to Finnish authorities interviewed after the war, bring the subject up
again, even if Germany did occasionally exert diplomatic pressure on
Fionland to hand over its Jews. Paradoxically, Finnish Jews fought
alongside their German comrades-in-arms against their common enemy, the
USSR. In a country where few people spoke German, Finnish Jews, almost
all of whom could speak Yiddish or German, were highly appreciated by
the Germans formobvious reasons. Two Finnish Jewish officers were
awarded the Iron Cross, second class, by the Germans for bravery, which
they politely declined, and there is at least one reported instance of
Finnish Jewish soldiers having set up a field synagoge close to the
front line. Intense German diplomatic pressure eventually resulted in
Finland handing over eight Central European Jews who had found refuge
in Finland but had committed crimes there or had other irregularities
with their poapers, and seven of them died at Auschwitz. No Finnish
Jews were handed over to the Nazis, and Finnish civilian Jews lived a
normal life in Finland throughout the war with no restrictions or loss
of rights. For further details see
http://www.jewishsf.com/bk950609/1finland.htm

Sweden, which was officially neutral but strongly under the economic
domination of Germany, participated in the Holocaust in a unique and
important way. On the one hand it took in 185,000 Jewish refugees,
128,000 of them arriving from or through its Scandinavian neighbors.
This number should be compared with the 2,000 Jews taken in by the UK
in 1934, and the 50,000 more it eventually took in. Of equal
importance, and unique in Holocaust history, were the efforts of the
Swedish diplomats Raoul Wallenberg and Per Anger to issue Swedish
travel documents to Hungarian Jews, sometimes when they were even
already in trains on the way to Auschwitz for extermination. They also
set up a network of safe houses for Budapest Jews to prevent them from
being attacked by local anti-Semitic groupings. A personal appeal from
the Swedish King Gustaf eventually contributed to the decision made by
the Hungarian regent Horthy to stop deporting Jews to Auschwitz. The
efforts of Raoul Wallenberg, who eventually wound up sacrificing his
life, are estimated to have rescued as many as 100,000 potential
Holocaust victims. For details see
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/wallenberg.html.


The information I have summarized here is culled from various sources
which can be found in the internet, as given above, and elsewhere. In
my interpretation these small case studies, each unique, provide
additional evidence that the Holocaust was a loosely coordinated but
systematic program for the extermination of European Jews, the actual
implementation of which was decisively determined by strategic,
pragmatic, and random or opportunistic factors: Germany was involved in
multifront war and was unable to decide whether winning the war or
killing Jews had greater priority. In some places, such as in Denmark,
priorities changed as the country, from the German standpoint
deteriorated from one eager to collaborate with the occupiers to one
eager to resist them, one consequence being a radical change in local
German-dictated policy towards Denmark's Jews.  The establishment of a
strongly subservient government in Norway enabled the highest SS
representative to round up about half of the tiny Norwegian Jewish
population on a whim, after which he contacted Eichmann's office in
Berlin informing them that he had shipment of Jews, an awkward and
totally unexpected _fait accompli_ from the standpoint of Berlin, that
would be arriving in Danzig and requesting that a train to Auschwitz be
ready at the Nordkai. At the other extreme, Germany's desire to secure
the north eastern front in the campaign against the USSR, its knowledge
of the drubbing that the Finnish Army had meted out to the Soviets in
the 1939-40 war and of their desire for revenge, as well as the
practical fact that most Jewish Finns knew German, while most other
Finns didn't, allowed for the almost obscene anomaly of Finnish Jews
being awarded Iron Crosses, even if only second class, by the German
Army.

Links to more detailed information on the impact of the Holocaust on
the Scandinavian countries can be found at the website maintained by
the Stockholm International Forum on the Holocaust:
http://www.holocaustforum.gov.se/


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:53 EDT 2001
Article: 920555 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust in Norway: one woman's story
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 19:12:54 +0300
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Here is the testimony of one Norwegian Jew presented at the tiral of
Adolf Eichmann.

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/
Session-036-02.html


State Attorney Bach: At this point, Your Honours, I should like to call
the witness, Mrs. Henrietta Samuel. 

Presiding Judge: Do you speak Hebrew, Madam? 

Witness Samuel: German. I should like to give evidence on affirmation.
I am Observant. 

Witness affirms. 

State Attorney Bach: Mrs. Samuel, you were born in Berlin? 

Witness Samuel: I was born in Berlin. 

Q. Did you come to Norway in 1930 together with your late husband,
Rabbi Samuel? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What appointment was your late husband given in Norway? 

A. My husband was called to Oslo as Rabbi in the year 1930. 

Q. Was he in fact appointed Chief Rabbi for Norway? 

A. He was called as Rabbi for Norway, and in the course of his tenure
he officiated as Chief Rabbi. 

Q. How many Jews were living in Oslo when the Germans entered Norway in
April 1940? 

A. At that time there were 1,700 Jews in Norway. 

Q. Do you know how many lived in Oslo at that time? 

A. In Oslo there lived about 1,200. 

Q. What was the situation of the Jews in Norway just before the entry
of the Germans? 

A. The Jews had a free, unhampered life in Norway and felt at home
there. They lived in good economic circumstances. There was no
anti-Semitism. 

Q. What was the situation of the Jews from 1940 until the beginning of
1942 during the German occupation? 

A. At the beginning of the German occupation, from 1940 to 1942, the
Jews lived in the illusion that in Norway, the country of Henrik
Wergeland and Fridtjof Nansen, Hitler's Jewish laws could not be
applied. 

Q. What was the first anti-Jewish measure you experienced? 

A. At the beginning of 1942, all Jews had to have their identity cards
be stamped with "Jude." Some time later, the Jews had to hand over
their radio sets. However, a month later, the Norwegian non-Jews also
had to hand in their radios, with the exception only of the members of
the Quisling's Norwegian Nazi Party; they were allowed to keep their
radio sets. 

Q. Mrs. Samuel, when did you first meet the Gestapo directly? 

A. In Trondheim, the northernmost Jewish community in the world, there
were about 500 Jews. The first Jewish victims died there. 

Q. Can you tell us briefly in what circumstances this happened? 

A. There was a curfew. One Jew returned home a little late and was shot
dead in the street. 

Q. When was your late husband first arrested by the Germans? 

A. Shortly after this Trondheim affair it started in Oslo; all Jews
named Bernstein - they were looking for a spy by the name of Bernstein
- had to report to the police. The physician Dr. Paul Bernstein was
arrested, while the others named Bernstein were sent home. During the
summer, Dr. Paul Bernstein lived in Nersnes, a small village on the
Oslo Fjord, and the result was that all the Jewish families who spent
that summer in Nersnes on the Oslo Fjord had to report to the Gestapo
when they returned home, among them my late husband. 

Q. How many times was your late husband arrested after this incident? 

A. My husband, together with the twelve men from Nersnes, had to report
to the Gestapo five or six times. Once my husband came home and told me
he had received hints that he should disappear. 

Q. Who gave him the hint? 

A. One of the Gestapo officials. 

Q. And did he listen to this suggestion, to this recommendation? 

A. My husband said to me, as he had already repeatedly said in 1940:
"I, as Rabbi, shall not leave my community in this dangerous hour." 

Q. What happened then? 

A. The men in Oslo, among them my late husband, were again called to
the Gestapo on 2 September 1942, and did not come home again. 

Q. Does this mean all the Jewish men in Oslo? 

A. No. On 2 September,it involved only the men from Nersnes. 

Q. Did you find out where your husband was when he did not return? 

A. The underground movement saw to it that the twelve families
concerned were informed on the same day. 

Q. And did they inform you where your husband was? 

A. The men were taken to Grini, the Norwegian concentration camp near
Oslo. 

Q. Did you try to see him there? 

A. All my efforts to get a visiting permit through the Gestapo were in
vain. So were the requests of the Jewish Community to let the Rabbi
officiate at least on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur. 



Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/
Session-036-03.html


Q. Did he take anything with him when he went to the Gestapo on that
day, 2 September, belongings, clothes? 

A. My husband went in the clothes he was wearing, without saying
goodbye to me or to the children, because we believed he would return
as he had on the previous occasions. 

Q. How many children do you have? 

A. I have three children. 

Q. When did you first learn that your husband was no longer in Norway? 

A. On 21 November Inge came to visit me... 

Q. Who is Inge? 

A. Inge was a neighbour in the house in which we lived. She was one of
the leading personalities in the underground. But I had no inkling of
this, because the Norwegian underground movement worked so cautiously
that no one ever knew who was active. 

Q. What is the full name of this Inge? 

A. Ingebjorg Sletten Fosstvet. 

Q. You said they had to be very cautious. Can you tell us what was the
special reason for this caution? Was there a specific order about this?


A. The Norwegian Homefront was active since 9 April 1940, since Norway
was at war with Germany. The Norwegians did not surrender, they fought
against the Germans. 

Q. That was not my question. My question was directed at a different
point: What was the punishment for a Norwegian who helped a Jew? 

A. All assistance to Jews, substantial or limited, was punishable by
death. 

Q. And what did you learn about your husband? 

A. Inge came and told me: Last night your husband was deported to
Germany. I was struggling with myself whether to call you. Perhaps this
was the last time that you could have seen him. 

Q. Do you also know how your husband was taken to Germany? 

A. My husband was deported on the Monte Rosa on 20 November 1942,
together with the other eighteen Jewish inmates of Grini. 

Q. Mrs. Samuel, you said your husband was arrested on 2 September,
together with others, with twelve persons who had been in Nersnes. When
were the other Jewish men arrested in Norway? 

A. On 26 October 1942, all Jewish men were arrested in a lightning
operation. 

Presiding Judge: All the Jewish men in the whole of Norway? 

Witness Samuel: The operation was meant to apply to the whole of
Norway, to all the Jewish men. However, thanks to the Norwegian
underground movement, some went into hiding. 

State Attorney Bach: Who actually made the arrests, both times, of the
Jewish men in Norway? 

Witness Samuel: The operation was carried out by the Norwegian police
accompanied by the Germans. 

Q. Did they also come to your house in order to arrest your husband,
who was in fact no longer at home? 

A. They came and asked for Rabbi Julius Samuel. They wanted to arrest
him. They did not know that he was already in Grini. 

Q. Do you know when and on what ship the Norwegian Jewish men who were
arrested in October were deported? 

A. The men were carried off to Germany together with the women and
children who were arrested on 26 November 1942, and were taken straight
to the ship Donau, with the men from the Berk camp who were arrested on
26 October. 

Presiding Judge: Which women and children were arrested? We have not
yet heard of this. 

Witness Samuel: On 26 November a lightning operation, similar to that
against the men, was carried out in Oslo at 5 o'clock in the morning. 

Q. And then women and children were also arrested? 

A. In this operation arrests were made especially of women and
children. 

Q. How many Jews were deported from Norway altogether? 

A. Half the Jews of Oslo, about 750, were taken to Auschwitz. Twelve of
them survived. 

State Attorney Bach: Mrs. Samuel, did you know a man named Kai
Feinberg? 

Witness Samuel: Kai Feinberg is the son of Elias Feinberg, a son of one
of the most respected Jewish families in Oslo. 

Q. Did he come back from Auschwitz? 

A. He is one of those twelve from Auschwitz who remained alive. 

Q. Tell me, Mrs. Samuel, what happened to the other Jews, those who
were not deported and who did not hide inside Norway. 

A. During the night of 26 to 26 November, the underground tried to warn
as many Jewish persons as possible that danger was imminent and that
they had to go into hiding. 

Q. And what happened to these Jews? How did they manage to escape? 

A. Very slowly, with the opening up of trails and with the development
of the political conditions, these Jews were saved by the underground
movement and taken to Sweden. This was a very dangerous operation
because the trails, the borders, were closely watched by German guards
who patrolled there. 

Q. And what happened to you and the children? 

A. During the night of 26 to 26 November, I received a phone call from
Inge: "Tonight it is very cold. I advise you to cover the children
well." That was enough for me. Telephone conversations were monitored.
I understood the language, I understood there was danger. I woke my
children and dressed them warmly. 

Q. And what happened? 

A. Inge came to us an hour later and transferred us, as well as my
sister-in-law and her children. My brother-in-law went to hospital for
a hernia operation. As I said, my sister-in-law with her two children
and I with my three children were transferred by Inge to another
neighbour in a house nearby. There, however, we could stay for only one
day. There were children in the house, and this Christian family was
endangered. The children might tell people: We have Jews living with
us. Inge took it upon herself to keep us hidden. 

Q. After that day, how long did you remain in Norway? 

A. We were housed in an empty villa outside Oslo. My son, ten years old
at the time, drew back terrified on entering the house: "We cannot stay
here," he said, "there is a radio in the house, Nazis live here." I had
to calm him down and explain: "If Inge sent us here, then I am safe."
We were five children and two grownups, and a staff organized by Inge
kept us supplied with food and clothing. They were all Homefront
fighters who worked during the day, followed their professions, and
used the nights to fight for the Homefront. 

Q. How long were you in that villa, Mrs. Samuel? 

A. We stayed only eight days in this villa, as we had priority, because
of the children, to be taken across the border as quickly as possible. 

Q. When did you cross the border into Sweden, Mrs. Samuel? 

A. During the night of 3 to 4 December 1942. 

Q. Perhaps you will only say briefly who brought you to the border and
how you crossed the border. 

A. We were a transport of forty persons in two lorries. The lorries had
permission to transport potatoes. We had to behave like potatoes under
the tarpaulins; not a word must be spoken. The children were given
sleeping pills. And we were warned of the danger if the lorry should
stop en route. "Those will be the Germans searching; not a word from
you, you are potatoes." The last stretch could not be traversed by the
vehicles. We had to cross it on foot with the children, in minus twenty
degrees temperature. 

Q. How old were your children, Mrs. Samuel? 

A. My children were 3, 9 and 10 years old. 

Q. Did the whole group reach Sweden safely? 

A. Thank God, we managed to cross into Sweden safe and sound. 

Q. Do you know how many Jews altogether reached Sweden with the help of
the Norwegian underground? 

A. About 850 Norwegian Jews were saved by the underground and taken to
Sweden. 

Q. Mrs. Samuel, did you ever hear from your husband after he had been
taken to Germany? 

A. In 1943, in January or February, I received an exchange immigration
certificate to Palestine, sent to Sweden through my brothers, thanks to
the help of the late Chief Rabbi Herzog, of blessed memory. I applied
to the Swedish Foreign Ministry, which tried to have my husband sent to
an exchange camp. I used to send packages through the Red Cross and
once, I believe it was in 1943, confirmation came that Reb Shemuel*
{*"Code name" for Rabbi Samuel.} had received the packet. 

Q. Did you receive the confirmation via the Red Cross? 

A. The confirmation was conveyed to me by the Red Cross. 

Q. Did you ever receive a letter from your husband? 

A. I never received a letter and never heard a word. From Grini, too,
correspondence had been forbidden. I have a document from the Arolsen
Archives saying that my husband perished in Auschwitz already on 16
December 1942. 

State Attorney Bach: Thank you very much. 

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, do you have any questions? 

Dr. Servatius: I have no questions. 

Presiding Judge: Where do you live now, Mrs. Samuel? 

Witness Samuel: I now live in Haifa, on the Carmel, in Ilanot Street. 

Presiding Judge: Thank you very much. You have completed your evidence. 



From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:53 EDT 2001
Article: 920590 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust in Norway: basic facts
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 19:33:28 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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Norway is not a country that we often associate with the Holocaust, but
Nazi Germany's hand also extended to there. This brief account is based
primarily on a reading of some of the 126 scanned Holocaust-era
petaining to the Norwegian Holocaust documents found at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d06c06/index.html.


When Norway was sneak-attacked and occupied by Nazi Germany on April 9,
1940, resistance to German aggression lasted for seven weeks. A German
occupation government was eventually established under the Norwegian
traitor Vidkun Quisling, and the country was nominally incorporated
into the Reich. The normal German security service and security
police organs were established and manned by Germans. 

Norway had a small Jewish community of about 1,700 people, the majority,
1,200, living in the capital, Oslo. Unlike what happened in most
occupied countries, special measures were not immediately taken against
Norwegian Jews. Up until November 1942 they enjoyed the same rights and
had access to the same ration cards as everone else. They could do
business openly, and were not harassed. They were not required to wear
the yellow star, nor were they confined to a ghetto. They were,
however, required to have their identity cards stamped "Jude".
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d06c06/norw8z1.html)
~/norw9z1.html)

Norwegian Jews were privileged in having the right to leave Norway and
settle in neutral neighboring Sweden, an option that about 1,000
Norwegian Jews used ( ~/norw9z1.html)). 

On November 25, 1942 the chief of the security police and security
service in Oslo, SS-Sturmbahnführer Reinhardt, sent a telegram to the
state police in Stettin and the RSHA in Berlin informing them that a
shipment from Oslo of between 700 and 900 Jews of both sexes and all
age groups would be leaving Oslo the next day and arriving in Stettin
three days later. It continues:

"Die Juden sollen nach Auschwitz verbracht werden. Ich habe soeben das
RSHA unterrichtet and nehme an, dass von dort aus weiter Weisung
erfolgt."

[The Jews are to be brought to Auschwitz. I have also informed the RSHA
and assume that forther instructions will come from there.]

(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d06c06/norw5z3.html)

This telegram created quite a sensation when it reached Eichmann's group
of transportation experts at the RHSA in Berlin. Strumbahnführer Rolf
Günther, Eichmann's representative, was particularly surprised, and not
in a positive way, since Reinhardt in Oslo had arranged the shipment
and negotisated with the German navy for a ship on his own initiative
and thus confronted the RHSA as well as the Gestapo in Stettin with a
_fait accompli_. A train transportation had to be arranged, and guards
and supplies found.

The only option open was to provide Sturmbahnführer Reinhardt in Oslo
with further instructions. The Norwegian Jews, who had been living a
normal life and had begun the business day normally, were quickly
rounded up during the day, herded onto the ship which
SS-Sturmbahnführer Reinhardt had requisitioned from the navy, and sent
off to Stettin. In order to maintain the deception that they were to be
resettled, Sturmbahnführer Renihardt instructed the Jews to take with
them provisions for at least 14 days, work clothes, shoes, underwear,
bedding, blankets, as well as eating and drinking utensils. They were
also informed that they were being deprived of their citizenship, that
their relationship with the Reich was being terminated, and that "a
return of deported Jews to Norway would not come into the question
under any circumstances whatsoever." 
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d06c06/norw59z3.html).

A document from the Stettin police documents that a train carrying the
Norwegian Jews left the northern platform of the railway station at
Danzig at 15.00 on November 30, 1942, arriving at Auschwitz the next
evening at 21:00. This is accompanied by a list of the names of the 532
Jews that were included in the transport
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d06c06/norw22z3.html).
This is the last record we have of these people. Not a single one has
ever been seen or heard from since. The Jews were made to pay for the
transport from Oslo to Auschwitz themselves. Those who could not pay in
cash were stripped of their valuables. Their personal possessions and
the provisions they brought with them which were left behind were sent
to Germany and distributed there.

Not all of the Norwegian Jews were located in this operation. Another
dragnet of Oslo in February 1943 found an additional 168 Jews who were
sent to Berlin where they joined a transport of Jews from Berlin and
sent to Auschwitz, never to be seen or heard from again
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/specialcol/instdoc/d06c06/norw12z3.html).

A handful - twelve - of the deported Norwegian Jews survived and
returned to Norway. The number of Norwegian Holocaust victims is 762.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:54 EDT 2001
Article: 920628 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.startrek,alt.walmart,alt.fan.gozilla
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2?
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 19:49:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <040720011949113165%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:920628 alt.startrek:156294 alt.walmart:4936

In article <3B433221.DF8BE11A@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> You're probably right. This is the eternally perplexing problm here. Who said what to
> whom and when did he say it.
> =================================

I AM right on this one, but that's blood under the bridge, and I won't
rub your nose in it.

Now, if you consider the list of the impact of WW II on American
society, how the *hell* can a man with your aversions, prejudices,
appetites, and proclivities, call such a social revolution a _good_
thing?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:54 EDT 2001
Article: 920629 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.startrek,alt.walmart,alt.fan.gozilla
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2?
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 19:43:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 144
Message-ID: <040720011943453553%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:920629 alt.startrek:156295 alt.walmart:4937

In article <3B433157.2D7EB7DD@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
>
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I feel and always have felt that a country belongs to the people who founded
> and
> built it. Moreover I do not feel the should regard themselves as obligated to
> share it with any others.
> 
> ======================================

The United States (long live its 225 year old independence!) was
founded by white males but built by a kaleidoscope of peoples. It would
have been impossible to build the country without the assistance
rendered by non-white, non-Anglo-Saxon, non-males.


> 
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > 3. It proved that women could do a man's job, thus laying the
> > > > groundwork for feminism and challenging traditional patriarchy.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Womens' competence to do a lot of mens' jobs  is not in question. What IS in
> question is whether this is a good tthing for Society.
> 
> ======================================
> 
> >
> > >
> > > The proper place for a woman is any damn place she feels it is.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> And with no regard for the overall, long-term interets of Society?
> 
> ==============================================
> 
> >
> >
> > Agreed. Phillips prefers Kinder, Kirche, Küche und Schlafzimmer.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I can manage the first three but  has me but Schlafzimmer has me ausgestumped.
> Probably something to do with sex, nicht war?
> 
> ===========================

Schlafzimmer = bedroom. "wahr" (with long vowel) = 'true'; "war", with
short vowel = "was". 

> 
> > He has
> > railed here many times against the concept of spousal rape, seeing
> > marriage as a deal in which financial and other support is exchanged
> > for unlimited sex.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I believe that a husband does have certain rights but I have only contmpt for
> a
> man who insists on exercising tem at any and al times.
> 
> =========================================

No man, no matter how virile, can do it any and all the times he would
like to.

> >
> > Nope. I meant Eisenhower. It was during his term that the US got
> > involved in McCarthyism and Vietnam.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Hey, what do you know. I first thought of Eisenhower, myself, though for
> different
> reasons.
> 
> McCarthyism? Ike detested him. McC  had declared war on the Eastern
> Establishment
> and Ike was very much a creature of it. (Oh, how I miss Cohn and Schine who
> were
> often likened to the old vaudeville team of Gallagher & Shean)
> 
> Vietnam? I think that all that was going on during Ike's presidency was some
> low-profile CIAing.
> 
> No, when I think of Ike I am irritated by the thought that a man of no
> conspicuous
> talent or character can have general's stars and al the honours of the land
> showered upon him.
> 
> =========================================================
> 

> > > I will have to say that the world is still digging itself out from under
> > > the
> > > crap that Dr. Spock foisted upon us.
> > >
> > > > With a report card like that, how can a man of your aversions,
> > > > prejudices, and preferences see WW II as "the best thing that ever
> > > > happened to us"?
> >
> > Phillips has yet to respond.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Make way for Phillips as he responds.
> 
> Suddenly and magically we were transformed from the condition of ten men
> banging
> on factory doors for every job to the condition where EVERYONE was needed,
> where
> there was a place for everyone, whether in the service or on the factory floor.
> 
> Suddenly and magically we were transformed from a political entity made up of 140M
> squabbling, warring egos into a NATION where everyone was on the same team and
> pulling in the same direction.
> 
> Ein Reich, ein volk, ein FDR.
> 
> =====================================

ROTFLMAO!

(German nouns are capitalized: ein Volk)

Mit freundlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:54 EDT 2001
Article: 920742 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!HSNX.atgi.net!news.netfront.net!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: David Cole
Supersedes: <040720012022554880%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 20:38:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 49
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References: <6MVY3UNF37072.7059027778@frog.nyarlatheotep.org> <040720011626412066%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B43339D.33489C5F@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B43339D.33489C5F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Ah so. Then it was NOT the original (as it had been so represented to
> generations of weeping, pious torists) it was a RESTORATION ...... to a
> condition "approximating" what it was ....
> 
> Your attempt to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear was cmmendable but (at
> least in my own case) unsuccessful.
> 
> =============================================

Thanks for the left-handed compliment. Now, I want you to tell me what
_you_ would have done if you had inherited the site of perhaps the
greatest site of mass murder ever committed in Europe and:

€ premises which had once functioned as a gas chamber were still
standing, but were in the state they were in after they had been
subsequently renovated and made into an air-raid shelter (Krema I); the
architectural plans for the original structure and the modifications
survive, as do most of the gas chamber accoutrements;
€ two other premises which had housed a gas chamber (Bunkers I and II)
had been totally destroyed with not even a trace left;
€ one premise which had housed a gas chamber (Krema III) survived as a
pile of rubble;
€ three premises which had housed gas chambers (Kremas III, IV, and V)
survived only as building foundations.

Filter into the equation the fact that Krema I is at the Auschwitz main
camp, which survived the war intact, while the other structures are at
Auschwitz-Birkenau, which is mostly in ruins.

Tell me, honestly, what would _you_ have done as a museum director
working within a limited budget? You would have made a silk purse out
of sow's ear - correct?

As Piper, who evidently is able to live in more complex semiotic worlds
than you are, points out, it is "original" in the sense that there is
no disputing the fact that people were indeed gassed within the
premises concerned. The details and accoutrements are of peripheral
importance compared to this fact.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:55 EDT 2001
Article: 920809 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.sollentuna.se!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.tele.dk!195.158.233.21!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 16:26:41 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 314
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In article <6MVY3UNF37072.7059027778@frog.nyarlatheotep.org>, Frog2
 wrote:

> I was reading on the net about this jewish kid
> who goes to Poland and returns with a message
> that the holocau$t is a fake, meaning gassing
> stories were fabrications.

That's not what happened. He went to Poland, interviewed an official at
the Auschwitz State Museum, and deliberately misrepresented what the
official said.

The gas chamber at Auschwitz I is most emphatically not a fake. It is
the partial restoration of a room that has undergone many architectural
changes to a condition approximating what it was when it functioned as
a gas chamber.

Here is a letter from the official, Dr Franciszek Piper, protesting the
misleading and dishonest behavior of David Cole:

Source:
http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/p/piper.franciszek/press/daily.
texan.1093



                                               ogwiqcim, October21,1993
                Dr Franciszek Piper
                Pa'nstwowe Muzeum
                32-603 Ogwiecim -Poland

                Texas School Publications
                University of Texas
                P.O.Box D
                Austin,Texas 78713-8904
                       U S A
Dear Sirs,

In connection with an advertisement of David Cole (An open
letter to the daily Texan, February 19, 1993) in which he offers
the videotape named "David Cole -Interviews Dr Franciszek
Piper" I would like to inform your readers: 

1. the sham interview with me there is the Neonazi 
stylemonologue of young man who never seriously approached the great
tragedy of humanity named Auschwitz and Holocaust.  In his
ingenuousness he decided to halt the part of the murderers
instead of their innocent victims - different every
honest man does. My answers on a few questions of Cole ( who
deceitfully introduced himself as a man who wanted to convince his
acquaintances in America that Auschwitz was really a place of
genocide) constitute a small proportion of this video tape.  

2.  In his advertisement he introduces me as a "Head of
Auschwitz Archives at the Auschwitz State Museum".  This is
untruth.  I am not and I have been neither a head of Auschwitz Archives
nor a director of Auschwitz Musum, as Cole maintains in
other propaganda leaflets.  The purpose of such manipulation
with of facts is clear - to attract potential purchasers of his
"Interview" video tape. 

3.  Cole maintains that I first time admitted the allegedly
unknown fact the Nazis adapted the crematorium in question in
which the gas chamber were located for air-raid shelter, the fact
allegedly unknown even for Museum guides.  It is un truth.  See
enclosed copies of pages from the books which constitute the
fundamental reading for Auschwitz guides. In book by T-an Sehn
"Concentrat Camp Ogwiqcim-Brzezinka (Auschwitz-Birkenau)Warsaw 1957,
You may read on the page 152-"In May 1944 the old Crematorium
I in the base camp was adapted for use as an air raid shelter

The Fact is also confirmed in the book by Jean Claude Pressac
"Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers,
published by The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York 1989(515
Madison Avenue. On the page 157 you may read: "With part of the
building converted to an air raid shelter, this is the state in which
the  SS abandoned Krematorium I in January 1945"  Repeating what
Pressac had written I told what was the nature of the
adaptation works carried out by the Nazis and what one had to do to
remove those changes in order to regain the previous appearance.
They aare all "Pipers revelations. In spite of the fact that
such secondary restoration works had to be done there is an
undisputable reality that the gas chamber in question is housed in the
same builldin which has been existed from prewar times till now. 

4. The fact that the Nazi murderers used gas chambers (in
Birkenau you can see the ruins of the other 5 gas chambers) for
mass annihilation of innocent men, women and children, mostly
Jews, has been proved by thousands of memoires and depositions of
eyewitnesses as well as by German official documents and plans. 
It is obvious fact for everybody who wants to approach the
problem, to contact still living witnesses and to study historical
sources. 

5. I have devoted 28 years of my life to save the memory of
the counless victims of the Nazi barbarity to warn people against
indifference to all forms of racial, religious and national
based hatered, which leads to injustice, suffering and killing
of innocent people.  Because of it I take the fact my name is
used for disseminating such kind of lies and hiding of the obvious
truth as a lack of honesty and dignity. 
                                                                                              

yours,sincerely  
                                                              

                                                                                              

DrFranciszek Piper

PS Send me please the copy ofyour magazine in which my letter will be  
published 

[transcription note: Dr. Piper's first language is Polish, not
English, and the letter reads awkwardly. knm]

------------------------------------------------------------------------



> 
> Then under pressure from jewish organizations, he
> recants his story and publicizes a confession.
> 
> Sounds to me like a typical communist story....
> 
> And it seems most gassing evidences are based on
> confessions and eyewitnesses....

The fact that it was obtained from confessions or from eyewitnesses
does not automatically make it invalid. Here is a typical confession:

Source:
http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/m/muench.hans/muench-testimony


------------------------------------------------------------------------


Archive/File: camps/auschwitz/staff muench-testimony
Last-Modified: 1994/07/14

Testimony of Dr. Hans W. Muench 
[Trials of War Criminals, Vol. VIII. p. 313-321]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?

A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
   extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio
   that I listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I
   considered this news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the
   time, because the facts that were being described seemed too 
   terribly outrageous to me. When I arrived in Auschwitz, and had to
   convince myself personally that these reports were not exaggerated, 
   I was very much shaken emotionally.
 
 .
 .
 .


Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
   gassed at Auschwitz?

A. Yes.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, for what reason did you not spread the fact that human
   beings were being gassed and exterminated?

A. I was asked this very often and also before the Supreme Court of 
   Cracow, and I can say in answer to it that that would have been a 
   completely useless undertaking which would have very shortly caused 
   me and my family to be liquidated very quickly, because the Gestapo 
   was so well organized and the threats for nonobservance of the 
   secrecy that surrounded the Auschwitz exterminations were so clearly 
   worded for members of the SS that everybody avoided telling even his 
   closest friend about it, because experience taught us that anybody 
   who talked about it in any way was very quickly found because the 
   Gestapo sniffed out every rumor very consistently that spread about 
   Auschwitz.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, what would you say if someone visited a plant in
   Auschwitz twice or three times a year for a period of one or two
   days? Would he then have to gain knowledge about these things?

A. I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of
   commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp,
   and I was able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it
   masterfully to conduct these guided tours in such a way that the 
   people being guided around did not see anything about inhuman
   treatment. The main camp was shown only and in this main camp there
   were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13, that were
   especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped 
   like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, 
   and well-functioning washrooms. 

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human
   beings?

A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time.

 .
 .
 .

Q. Mr. witness, you testified a little earlier that those who were sick
   in the camps, like in concentration camp Monowitz, would be sent to
   Auschwitz-Birkenau, but I wasn't quite clear as to why they were 
   sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau. I'd like to put just a question or two 
   to you on that. Mr. witness, those people who were in the hospital 
   at Monowitz and were shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau because of an
   edema or phlegmon, for what purpose were they shipped to Birkenau?

A. As far as these people were Jews, I must state that most of them
   were gassed.

Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
   Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because 
   of weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau?

A. Also to be gassed.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


And if you go to the website, you can read the detailed testimony of
Henryk Tauber, one of the few surviving members of the Sonderkommando:

http://www.mazal.org/archive/documents/Tauber/Tauber01.htm


Another surviving Sonderkommando member, the artist David Olère,
recorded his impressions of life at Auschwitz, including gassings, as a
serious of highly detailed paintings. See
http://www.bxscience.edu/organizations/holocaust/olere/index.html


> Isn't there any
> hard evidence like physical evidence to backup a
> story?

Yes, there is:

Background reading:
€ Richard Green and Jamie McCarthy: "The Chemistry of Auschwitz",
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/

This article emphasizes that deniers have taken advantage of the
general public's ignorance of science to produce pseudo-scientific
reports supposedly proving that the structures at Auschwitz alleged to
be gas chambers could never have functioned as such. It discusses the
basic chemistry needed to understand how a structure can be modified so
that people can be killed within it using gas, and it provides the
basic information about the properties of cyanide and the dynamics of
cyanide salt formation necessary to make an informed reading of the
forensic reports that have been done at Auschwitz. It also discusses
the results and conclusions of the forensic reports that have been
carried out on the ruins of the Auschwitz gas chambers from 1945 down
to the present.


€ Richard Green: "Leuchter, Rudolf, and the iron Blues",
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/

This article examines some of the premises underlying the Leuchter
Report, a methodologically flawed pseudo-scientific forensic study of
the Auschwitz gas chambers, concentrating on the chemical processes
underlying formation of cyanide compounds, their shor and long-term
stability, and the proper manner for investigating them forensically.
The results and significance of the various forensic examinations
carried out at Auschwitz cannot be appreciated without this background
knowledge.

€ Richard Green: "Chemistry is not the Science: Rudolf, Rhetoric &
Reduction"

This article discusses details of the dynamics of cyanide compound
formation and tells how wide-spread misunderstandings among the public
about forensic evidence being "exact" and thus somehow absolute have
been used by holocaust deniers such as David Irving to deceive the
public.

A modern forensic analysis of the physical evidence detectable at the
Auschwitz gas chambers:

€ "A Study of the Cyanide Compounds Content in the Walls of the Gas
Chambers in the Former Auschwitz & Birkenau Concentration Camps", by AN
MARKIEWICZ, WOJCIECH GUBALA, JERZY LABEDZ, Institute of Forensic
Research, Cracow 
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/

€ Othe important historical information about the Auschwitz gas
chambers in more easily digested form is available at the website
maintained by the Department of History at the University of Linz,
Austria:
http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/Gaskammern.html

***************************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:55 EDT 2001
Article: 920855 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.sollentuna.se!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: Anne Frank Diary
Supersedes: <040720011707460350%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 17:13:51 +0300
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In article ,
Anonymous Coredump  wrote:

> nigger brown...how can you provide information from
> an Anne Frank house as impartial and use it as the truth?
> No one expects the Anne Frank house coming out and saying
> the diary is a fake.

Probably not. It would deprive them of their _raison d'être_: preserving
the memory of the tragic events that took place on the premises.
 
> 
> Did you ever read it?? Analyzed it?? You haven't read
> it.

Most educated people of the past two generations were introduced to the
human side of WWII by reading it.

> 
> I did read it 2 times....From the contents, not very probable
> it was written without outside help.

Did you read it in the opriginal Dutch? Did it ever pass through your
mind that it is very difficult to assess the content or the
form of a book written by a child in one language, but translated by an
adult into another? Additionally, Anne Frank was the only child in the
group (her sister was already a young adult), and she spent more than
two years with only adults dealing with very adult kinds of problems.
Given that she was precocious to begin with, and had to spend a lot of
time reading and writing, there's nothing remarkable about the diary,
which clearly shows a girl maturing into a young woman.


> The issue of pen still remains and Der Speigel may be right. If
> they were wrong, go sue them.

The issue of the ballpoint pen remains a non-issue.

€ The modern ball-point pen is based on patent issued in 1935.
ballpoint pens were already being manufactured industrially during the
war, at least in Argentina (on the histry of the  ball-point pen/biro,
see http://www.writeonoffice.com/info/his_ballpnt.htm). Anne Frank's
family was well-to-do and they lived in a major European city, so the
possibility of her having obtained a ballpoint pen by the time the
family went into hiding is remote, but not impossible. Assuming that
new writing technologies were being introduced by the firm that worked
in the building below them by daylight and helped hide them, even more
likely is the possibility that one of their benefactors might have
introduced the family to the existence of this innovative writing
instrument during the course of their stay in *het achterhuis*. They
knew that a lot of writing was going on there, and they certainly had a
lot of sympathy for Anne. Since Anne wrote the diary with a
fountainpen, this is all speculation. Nevertheless, the possibility
certainly existed that she could have obtained access to a ballpoint
pen during the time she spent in hiding.

€ The markings in Anne Frank's diary in ballpoint pen are editorial
comments and corrections. The diary itself is written with a fountain
pen. Manuscripts written by amateur writers such as Anne was for
publication are regularly subjected to editorial emandation and
stylizing. This is all the more so when a surviving parent is editing
private, emotionally charged, family-related matter so that it can be
read by the public without causing embarrassment.

€ People who keep diaries and notebooks sometimes cleancopy them. The
final version of Anne Frank's diary does not have to be physically
identical with the book she received as a birthday present which
started the whole thing. Anne was aware of the possibility that the
book might be published after the war, and certainly had the time to
rewrite and edit it herself. Her life revolved around that diary; the
poor girl had _nothing_ else to do.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:55 EDT 2001
Article: 920865 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A suggested change in the arrangements regarding Kashrut certification
Supersedes: <030720012016096927%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 20:34:03 +0300
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In article <3B41C8CA.D5E21662@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> "Jeffrey G. Brown" wrote:

> > Which specific "Jew lies" are you referring to, idiot? The origins of the
> > Pinckney diary hoax, perhaps?
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> The notion that Jews are pure victims who have never done anything to bring
> upon
> themselves the things that have happened to them.
> 

Jews get blamed collectively for things that are done by individuals.
For example the Catholic Church blamed the Jews for the crucifixion of
Christ until two generations ago, conviently forgetting that the
incident took place under Roman rule in an area occupied by the Romans
under a Roman governor, Pontius Pilatus. That's like making a blanket
charge against Americans for crimes against humanity because Texas
executes convicted felons in something approaching assembly line
fashion.

In his political testament drawn up just before he shot himself, Hitler
bitterly blamed the Jews for WW II and for Germany's defeat in it,
calling it the most Jewish of all wars. Could anyone but a paranoid
whacko make such a claim?



> =================================================
> Phillips
>
> The notion that Jews were gassed to death en masse at centres in Poland
> allegedly built for that purpose.

Not only Jews, but Gypsies, homosexuals, Polish clergy, and others were
gassed in them as well.

People don't put up memorials like this for frivolous reasons: 
€ http://www.holocaust-info.dk/today/
More general information is available at:
€ http://www.holocaust-info.dk/camps/index.html

There are detailed historical records giving information about the
towns and villages in Western as well as Eastern Europe from which Jews
were transported to the pilot death camp, Chelmno, the three Action
Reinhard camps, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, the duo-functional
labor and death camps, Auschwitz and Majdanek, and camps with gas
chambers in Germany and France such as Ravensbrück, Stutthof,
Sachsenhausen, and Natzweiler, never to be seen or heard from again.
There is also a massive amount of testimonial, documentary, and
forensic evidence that most of the missing deportees were gassed at
these camps.

If you still refuse to acknowledge the existence of gas chambers at the
camps in Poland, you have to offer evidence. Even the Leuchter Report
shows that the structures at Auschwitz-Birkenau which other evidence
indicates were gas chambers were used in such a manner that they were
exposed to concentrations of cyanide long enough and at concentrations
high enough to kill people and allow cyanide compounds to build up
which are still detectable more than half a century after they were
formed.

You have no basis whatsoever for calling the notion that Jews and
others were gassed at those chambers a "lie". The best you can say is
that you disagreee with all the evidence provided by eyewitnesses,
participants, historians, chemists, forensic scientists, museum
curators, architects, and the decisions concerning the matter reached
by several legal systems about the historical factuality of the
gassings.

And of course you have to present credible justification as to why your
notion is correct, and that of everyone else is false. The Luechter
Report doesn't count.

> =================================================
> Phillips
>
> The claim of there having been vaarious modalities  of mass execution
> including steaming
> to death, mall electrocution, pole-axing. etc.

There is no doubt about the fact that various modalities of death were
used: starvation, shooting, gassing with the CO in exhaust gas from
internal combustion engines, gassing with pressurized CO from gas
tanks, gassing with cyanide generated by Zyklon-B pellets, poisoning,
hanging, death-marching, and lethal injections. You, a person who is
extremely reluctant to seek out factual evidence and thus prone to
spout unmitigated nonsense - or Jew lies? - such as "Doenitz was
hanged" and "Doenitz was a serving officer" (rub, nose, rub), are in no
position to say whether scattered reports of more exotic modalities
such as steaming or electrocution were used or at least experimented
with are credible or not.

> =================================================
> Phillips
>
> Their attempts to minimize the prominent Jewish role in some of the more ghastly
> happenings perpetrated by the Bolsheviks.
>

The Bolsheviks were ideologically committed to anti-clericalism, for
which reason they hated Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and any other
system of religious belief. Bolshevism traces its roots to the economic
theories of Karl Marx, a German Jew by ethnicity, but an anti-Semite
German by conviction. It was made into a coherent and implementable
political system as the result off Marx's collaboration with Friedrich
Engels, a middle-class German gentile. You cannot blame *Jews* as the
bearers of a belief system for the deeds of the Bolsheviks, many of
whom were Jewish by ethnicity but anti-Semitic by conviction, whose
philosophy was a practical application drawn up by the gentile Engels
>from the teachings of the anti-Semitic ethnic Jew Marx. If Bolshevism
has any ethnic origin, it is German. 

Nor should it be forgotten that the leader of the Bolsheviks was
Vladimir Lenin (né Ulyanov), nominally a gentile Russian, while the
architect of the Bolshevik apparatus of terror was Josif Stalin (né
Dzugashvili), nominally a gentile Georgian who once studied for the
Orthodox priesthood. If you are going to blame the Jews for Bolshevism,
you have to blame the Christians and the Germans even more, for neither
the Bolsheviks nor the USSR ever had a non-gentile leader, and the
majority of the CPSU was always overwhelmingly both nominally gentile
and ethnically Russian. Bolshevism and its developed form, Soviet
communism, were always anti-clerical; they were co-opted by Stalin and
his followers to serve as a vehicle for Russian chauvinism and
imperialism, and were always at best borderline tolerant of, at worst
adamantly opposed to Jewish interests. Jews were systematically
excluded from the corridors of power and high-level decision making in
the USSR, and one of the issues that led to the country's demise was
shabby treatment of its Jewish minority.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:55 EDT 2001
Article: 920872 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A suggested change in the arrangements regarding Kashrut certification
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 20:37:07 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 23
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In article , Sara
 wrote:

> In article <3B41C8CA.D5E21662@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips" 
>  wrote:
> 

> > 
> > Your position is that any intervention by the law is a denial of "free 
> > enterprise," -- as,
> > indeed, it is: the free enterprise of the racketeers.
> > 
> > To me, the obvious answer to the problem is for the Jews to have their 
> > own stores.
> 
> Nuremberg Laws. And if jews have their own stores, Mr. Philllips, YOU 
> would be forced to shop in them as well.

Running a dual system would push up the price of everything for Jews
and non-Jews alike. "Separate but equal" is always a luxury.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:56 EDT 2001
Article: 921120 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.startrek,alt.walmart,alt.fan.gozilla
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2?
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 08:51:09 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 85
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In article ,
Captain Red Beard®  wrote:

> I've waited a day before responding, because I wanted to make sure I was
> reading this right.

You weren't. It was written specifically for Richard Phillips, who
constantly complains about the points raised. You were unable to catch
the irony.
 
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:020720010938106146%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> > 1. It resulted in a vast increase in Jewish immigration as well as in a
> > much more influential, you might even say disproportionate, role for
> > Jews in defining American culture and policy.
> 
> So this is a bad thing?  Do you have issues with th Jewish people.  For the
> record, I've known some pretty damn poor Jews.  But then, do you go with
> stereo-types?

Phillips, a Jew himself, hates Jewish influence and would forbid it by
law in his national socialist America©.

> 
> But, tell you the truth, I would rather turn the whole fucking world over to
> a handful of Jews than to continue to see White Power trash think they could
> rule the world.  The best thing that happened in WWII was when Hitler took
> the cowards way out, while his little-boy-fucking toadies ran for the hills.

I would have liked to have seen him defending himself at Nuremberg.
 
> > 2. It demonstrated that all races could fight together for a common
> > cause, thus eroding long-standing legal and social barriers to
> > inter-racial fraternization and paving the way for a truely
> > multiracial, multicultural American melting pot.
> 
> I'm going to say that based on your point number 1 that you think this is a
> bad thing.

Being black myself, I obviosuly don't think it's a bad thing. Phillips,
who things that America "belongs" to white males, does.

> 
> > 3. It proved that women could do a man's job, thus laying the
> > groundwork for feminism and challenging traditional patriarchy.
> 
> The proper place for a woman is any damn place she feels it is.

Agreed. Phillips prefers Kinder, Kirche, Küche und Schlafzimmer. He has
railed here many times against the concept of spousal rape, seeing
marriage as a deal in which financial and other support is exchanged
for unlimited sex.

> 
> > 4. It created a situation in which man who had had a creditable
> > military career but was otherwise not particularly good at or
> > knowledgeable about anything was rewarded by a grateful nation with the
> > presidency, allowing the country to fall victim to paranoia and
> > ill-considered foreign adventures.
> 
> You are refering to Kennedy, right?  Or was that Carter?  Can't be Clinton,
> we know he was a chickenshit.

Nope. I meant Eisenhower. It was during his term that the US got
involved in McCarthyism and Vietnam.

> 
> > 5. It resulted in the conception of an exceptionally large number of
> > children immediately after the war, the majority of which, raised in
> > accorandance with Dr. Spock's revolutionary child-rearing methods,
> > became globally-minded liberal Democrats with little respect for
> > traditional pre-war American values or traditions as they reached
> > maturity in the mid 1960s.
> 
> I will have to say that the world is still digging itself out from under the
> crap that Dr. Spock foisted upon us.
> 
> > With a report card like that, how can a man of your aversions,
> > prejudices, and preferences see WW II as "the best thing that ever
> > happened to us"?

Phillips has yet to respond.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:56 EDT 2001
Article: 921121 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.startrek,alt.walmart,alt.fan.gozilla
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2?
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 08:55:23 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <040720010855232508%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B4270D4.1F7DE562@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> "Captain Red Beard®" wrote:
> 
> > I've waited a day before responding, because I wanted to make sure I was
> > reading this right.
> >
> > "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> > news:020720010938106146%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> > > 1. It resulted in a vast increase in Jewish immigration as well as in a
> > > much more influential, you might even say disproportionate, role for
> > > Jews in defining American culture and policy.
> >
> > So this is a bad thing?  Do you have issues with th Jewish people.  For the
> > record, I've known some pretty damn poor Jews.  But then, do you go with
> > stereo-types?
> >
> > But, tell you the truth, I would rather turn the whole fucking world over to
> > a handful of Jews than to continue to see White Power trash think they could
> > rule the world.  The best thing that happened in WWII was when Hitler took
> > the cowards way out, while his little-boy-fucking toadies ran for the hills.
> >
> > > 2. It demonstrated that all races could fight together for a common
> > > cause, thus eroding long-standing legal and social barriers to
> > > inter-racial fraternization and paving the way for a truely
> > > multiracial, multicultural American melting pot.
> >
> > I'm going to say that based on your point number 1 that you think this is a
> > bad thing.
> >
> > > 3. It proved that women could do a man's job, thus laying the
> > > groundwork for feminism and challenging traditional patriarchy.
> >
> > The proper place for a woman is any damn place she feels it is.
> >
> > > 4. It created a situation in which man who had had a creditable
> > > military career but was otherwise not particularly good at or
> > > knowledgeable about anything was rewarded by a greatful nation with the
> > > presidency, allowing the country to fall victim to paranoia and
> > > ill-considered foreign adventures.
> >
> > You are refering to Kennedy, right?  Or was that Carter?  Can't be Clinton,
> > we know he was a chickenshit.
> >
> > > 5. It resulted in the conception of an exceptionally large number of
> > > children immediately after the war, the majority of which, raised in
> > > accorandance with Dr. Spock's revolutionary child-rearing methods,
> > > became globally-minded liberal Democrats with little respect for
> > > traditional pre-war American values or traditions as they reached
> > > maturity in the mid 1960s.
> >
> > I will have to say that the world is still digging itself out from under the
> > crap that Dr. Spock foisted upon us.
> >
> > > With a report card like that, how can a man of your aversions,
> > > prejudices, and preferences see WW II as "the best thing that ever
> > > happened to us"?
> > >
> > > Curiously,
> > > Eugene Holman
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Eugene: I think you hav a right-arrows problem. I was the one who said that WWII
> was the best thing ....
> 
> ============================

No. You do. I responded to your claim. The above was a response by
Captain Red Beard® to my response to your response. Captain Red
Beard®'s response in the above is prefixed with '> >', what I had
written is prefixed with '> > > '. Nothing you had written that evoked
my response is included in the above.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:56 EDT 2001
Article: 921129 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Question: The 'Wolzek' Paradox" by J. McCarthy
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 09:20:34 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <040720010920343362%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <73fedc95.0107031622.1584704d@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

>
>  
>      No matter how you try to twist the facts, diesel exhaust is a not
> a viable agent for deliberately killing people.  The stories of mass
> gassing by diesel exhaust are bogus nonsense.

You are assuming a modern, well maintained diesel engine. Simply
blocking the air intake can result in an increase in the CO content of
diesel exhaust to far beyond lethal levels. A CO rate of 5000 ppm,
enough to kill within 30 minutes, is "common" in indiluted diesel
exhaust, and rates as high as 60,000 ppm, far above the 12,800 ppm
level necessary to cause death within three minutes, are possible.

No matter how you twist the facts, diesel engines can easily be
adjusted to produce CO-rich exhaust which is a viable agent for killing
people forced to breathe it in a sealed, air-tight room with industrial
efficiency. 


Source:
http://www.phymac.med.wayne.edu/FacultyProfile/penney/COHQ/coDiesel01.ht
m


Carbon Monoxide Poisoning

Diesel Exhaust Gases:

Factors tending to increase CO:

*  Abrupt change in power setting / load changes 
*  Less than ideal injection timing, fuel aerosolization, distribution,
and combustion chamber shape 
*  Low combustion temperature 
*  Low operating rpm 
*  Large, heavy-duty size as compared to light-duty engines 
*  Engine not properly maintained 
*  Blocked air intake


Concentrations of 1,000 - 5,000 ppm CO in undiluted diesel exhaust
gases are common, and levels up to 60,000 ppm or higher, are possible.



Source: http://www.boatwashington.org/carbon_monoxide.htm



PARTS PER MILLION CONCENTRATIONS 

Here is what the "parts per million" concentrations of carbon monoxide
mean to your health:


1,600 ppm   .16%  Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
Death in less than two hours.

3,200 ppm   .32%  Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.

6,400 ppm   .64%  Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death
in less than 20 minutes.

12,800 ppm  1.28% Death in less than three minutes.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:56 EDT 2001
Article: 921386 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Supersedes: <050720010854568581%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 10:27:08 +0300
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In article <20010704144155.16056.00002294@ng-xc1.aol.com>, Debunks
 wrote:


> >
> >That's not what happened. He went to Poland, interviewed an official at
> >the Auschwitz State Museum, and deliberately misrepresented what the
> >official said.
> >
> 
> Er...no, he didn't.  Like all hollow fools, Piper got caught up in his own bs.

He most certainly did misrepresent him. For starters, he misrepresented
Piper's job designation. At the time of the interview, Piper was 
neither head of the Auschwitz Archives at the Auschwitz State Museum,
nor was he a director of Auschwitz Museum
(http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/start/). His correct
job designation is head of the Historical Department at the Auschwitz
State Museum
[http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-03.htm
l].

> 
> >The gas chamber at Auschwitz I is most emphatically not a fake.
> 
> The one under discussion was a "reconstruction."

Not a reconstruction, but a partial restoration for purposes of
museumification.

A reconstruction is an entity which is constructed to represent
something which no longer exists on the basis of photographs and plans
of the original, or on the basis of comparison of its descendants in
order to ascertain the archetype.

A restoration, in turn, is a matter of undoing history: components are
removed and added in order to give an entity the appearance and
functionality that it had at an earlier phase of its existence. 

A reconstruction is a model of something that no longer exists, while a
restoration is a reversion to an earlier stage in the existence of
something that has a continuous history of having survived intact as an
entity.

The difference is important to understand, because a reconstruction is
a "fake", while a restoration, full or partial, is not.

> 
> >It is
> >the partial restoration of a room that has undergone many architectural
> >changes to a condition approximating what it was when it functioned as
> >a gas chamber.
> 
> Not that you have been able to prove here.  I will grant you the benefit of
> the
> doubt, though, and allow you to present your case, should you wish to do so.

The case has been presented here many times and need not be repeated
here in detail. The conversion of Krema I from a gas chamber to an
air-raid shelter involved the construction of walls inside a once large
single room, and the removal of the gas-proof door and Zyklon-B
induction flues on the roof. Its restoration back to a form
approximating the one it had when functioning as a gas chamber involved
removing the interior walls and re-installing the induction flues.

See D. Dwork and Robert Jan van Pelt, _Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present_,
New York & London: Norton, 1996, pg. 362 ff. for informed discussion
about some of the factors that determined the specific manner in which
Auschwitz was converted from a liberated concentration camp into a
museum.

See also the brief account of the history of Krema I at the Auschwitz
Museum website:
http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/historia_KL/krematorium
_komora_1_ok.html


> 
> >Here is a letter from the official, Dr Franciszek Piper, protesting the
> >misleading and dishonest behavior of David Cole:
> >
> 
> snip propaganda
> 
> Piper has contradicted himself on so many occasions that he has zilch
> credibility.

Examples, please. The three main points that Piper raises in the letter
are valid:
1. Cole misrepresented himself.
2. Cole misrepresented Piper's position.
3. Cole reported as "sensational revelations" the generally known fact
that the Krema I gas chamber is a partial restoration, a
museumification.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:57 EDT 2001
Article: 921446 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.startrek,alt.walmart,alt.fan.gozilla
Subject: Re: Who lost the most in World War 2?
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In article <3B434E4F.C17C39E7@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B433157.2D7EB7DD@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:

> > >
> > > ======================================
> >
> > The United States (long live its 225 year old independence!) was
> > founded by white males but built by a kaleidoscope of peoples. It would
> > have been impossible to build the country without the assistance
> > rendered by non-white, non-Anglo-Saxon, non-males.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I do not believe that. The absence of the Negro would not have prevented
> America from
> becoing what it did become. It would merely have dveloped along different
> lines and,
> IMHO, along far more socially wholesome lines


You might have a point. But the fact of the matter is that it is
irrelevant, because things didn't happen that way. The continent is too
large, and there were simply not enough discontented Englishmen willing
to do the heavy manual labor necessary to "civilize" it.

Had slavery not been used, I strongly suspect that the United States
would be much more similar to Canada, where the aboriginal population
carries more clout in national affairs than is the case in the US,
and regional cultures, even to the point of there being two official
languages, play a more important role in defining national identity.
The United States, without slavery, would, if it had remained a single
political entity without large-scale migration, probably be a sparsely
populated, agrarian country with English, French, German, Dutch,
Swedish, Finnish, and Spanish speaking parts, a large network of
overlapping Indian reservations or safe areas for the aboriginal
population.

But the point that I raised was not specifically about slaves. Rather
it was that even if the country was founded by white, Anglo-Saxon
males, people of other races, other ethnicities and, of course, the
majority sex, females, played a central role in defining the country
and its path of development. This was pointed out brilliantly a
generation ago with the publication of Howard Zinn's irreverently
revisionist _A People's History of the United States_, one of my
all-time favorite reads.

> ===================================
> Phillips

> > >
> > > Ein Reich, ein volk, ein FDR.
> > >
> > > =====================================
> >
> > ROTFLMAO!
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> Ar you laughing at my gag or at me?
> 
> ===============================
> 

You know I would never laugh at you. It would be invading Jeffrey's
turf.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:57 EDT 2001
Article: 921472 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A suggested change in the arrangements regarding Kashrut certification
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 20:03:09 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B41C8CA.D5E21662@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> "Jeffrey G. Brown" wrote:

> > Which specific "Jew lies" are you referring to, idiot? The origins of the
> > Pinckney diary hoax, perhaps?
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> The notion that Jews are pure victims who have never done anything to bring
> upon
> themselves the things that have happened to them.
> 

Jews get blamed collectively for things that are done by individuals.
For example the Catholic Church blamed the Jews for the crucifixion of
Christ until two generations ago, conviently forgetting that the
incident took place under Roman rule in an area occupied by the Romans
under a Roman governor, Pontius Pilatus. That's like blaming Americans
collectively for crimes againt humanity because Texas executes
convicted felons in something approaching assembly line fashion.

In his political testament drawn up just before he shot himself, Hitler
bitterly blamed the Jews for Germany's defeat in WW II, calling it the
most Jewish of all wars. Could anyone but a paranoid whacko make such a
claim?



> =================================================
> Phillips
>
> The notion that Jews were gassed to death en masse at centres in Poland
> allegedly built for that purpose.

Not only Jews, but Gypsies, homosexuals, Polish clergy, and others were
gassed in them as well.

People don't put up memorials like this for frivolous reasons: 
€ http://www.holocaust-info.dk/today/
More general information is available at:
€ http://www.holocaust-info.dk/camps/index.html

There are detailed historical records giving information about the
towns and villages in Western as well as Eastern Europe from which Jews
were transported to the pilot death camp, Chelmno, the three Action
Reinhard camps, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka, the duo-functional
labor and death camps, Auschwitz and Majdanek, and camps with gas
chambers in Germany and France such as Ravensbrück, Stutthof,
Sachsenhausen, and Natzweiler, never to be seen or heard from again.
There is also a massive amount of testimonial, documentary, and
forensic evidence that most of the missing deportees were gassed at
these camps.

If you still refuse to acknowledge the existence of gas chambers at the
camps in Poland, you have to offer evidence. Even the Leuchter Report
shows that the structures at Auschwitz-Birkenau which other evidence
indicates were gas chamber were used in such a manner that they were
exposed to concentrations of cyanide long enough and and at
concentrations high enough to allow cyanide compounds to build up which
are still detectable more than half a century after they were formed.

You have no basis whatsoever for calling the notion that Jews and
others were gassed at those chambers a "lie". The best you can say is
that you disagreee with eyewitnesses, participants, historians,
chemists, forensic scientists, museum curators, architects, and the
decisions concerning the matter reached by several legal systems about
the historical factuality of the gassings.

And of course you have to present credible justification as to why your
notion is correct, and that of everyone else is false.

> =================================================
> Phillips
>
> The claim of there having been vaarious modalities  of mass execution
> including steaming
> to death, mall electrocution, pole-axing. etc.

There is no doubt about the fact that various modalities of death were
used: starvation, shooting, gassing with CO from exhaust gas from
internal combustion engines, gassing with pressurized CO from gas
tanks, gassing with cyanide generated by Zyklon-B pellets, poisoning,
hanging, death-marching, and lethal injections. You are in no position
to say whether scattered reports of more exotic modalities such as
steaming or electrocution were used or at least experimented with.

> =================================================
> Phillips
>
> Their attempts to minimize the prominent Jewish role in some of the more ghastly
> happenings perpetrated by the Bolsheviks.
>

The Bolsheviks were ideologically committed to anti-clericalism, for
which reason they hated Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and any other
system of religious belief. Bolshevism traces its roots to the economic
theories of Karl Marx, a German Jew by ethnicity, but an anti-Semite
German by conviction. It was made into a coherent and implementable
political system as the result off Marx's collaboration with Friedrich
Engels, a middle-class German gentile. You cannot blame *Jews* as the
bearers of a belief system for the deeds of the Bolsheviks, many of
whom were Jewish by ethnicity but anti-Semitic by conviction, whose
philosophy was a practical application drawn up by the gentile Engels
>from the teachings of the anti-Semitic ethnic Jew Marx. If Bolshevism
has any ethnic origin, it is German. 

Nor should it be forgotten that the leader of the Bolsheviks was
Vladimir Lenin (né Ulyanov), nominally a gentile Russian, while the
architect of the Bolshevik apparatus of terror was Josif Stalin (né
Dzugashvili), nominally a gentile Georgian who once studied for the
Orthodox priesthood. If you are going to blame the Jews for Bolshevism,
you have to blame the Christians and the Germans even more, for neither
the Bolsheviks nor the USSR ever had a non-gentile leader, and the
majority of the CPSU was always overwhelmingly both nominally gentile
and ethnically Russian. Bolshevism and its developed form, Soviet
communism, were always anti-clerical; they were co-opted by Stalin and
his followers to serve as a vehicle for Russian chauvinism and
imperialism, and were always at best borderline tolerant of, at worst
adamantly opposed to Jewish interests. Jews were systematically
excluded from the corridors of power and high-level decision making in
the USSR, and one of the issues that led to the country's demise was
shabby treatment of its Jewish minority.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:57 EDT 2001
Article: 921549 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.magyar,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic vs Scandinavian
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 21:04:08 +0300
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In article <8e2e4b9e.0107050944.409c9e21@posting.google.com>, Jaak
Suurpere  wrote:

> Also...
> Out of those listed above, Finland was the one which had not only
> Russian influence (which you find with Sweden and Norway) but Russian
> rule.
> Between the World Wars, Finland claimed to be a Nordic country - but
> wasn't accepted as such, since it was persistently classed as a Baltic
> country.

When Finland was attacked by the USSR in 1939, Sweden, Norway, and
Denmark appealed to their common Scandinavianness and took in thousands
of Finnish children from the war zone. Sweden, which had to act
diplomatically so as not to provoke the USSR or Germany into attacking
or occupying it, did not render Finland any official aid, although it
allowed thousands of Swedes to fight in Finland as voluteers in
addition to lending Finland dozens of military aircraft. The phrase
'Finlands sak är vår' - "Finland's problem is ours" succinctly captures
the feeling of a shared meta-identity from 'fornstora dar' (= "former
days of greatness", an expression from the Swedish national anthem)
that we find at least between Finland and Sweden.

Finland is a country which is transitional between being "Baltic" and
being "Scandinavian". For a number of reasons, playing the Scandinavian
card has been more propitious for Finland during the past 70 years than
playing the Baltic one would have been.

With best regards/Parimite teretustega,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:58 EDT 2001
Article: 921839 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OK, let's talk diesel exhaust (Was Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie)
Supersedes: <060720010840277336%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 08:55:43 +0300
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In article <73fedc95.0107052019.7ac83f5e@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:



>        Diesel exhaust cannot be manipulated to kill people quickly. In
> 1957, tests were conducted by R.E. Pattle and others to test diesel
> exhaust under different running conditions. Guinea pigs, rabbits, and
> mice were tested in diesel gas chambers. Under the worst conditions,
> with the engine air intake severely restricted, it took over three
> hours to kill the animals, and they died from CO poisoning, not NO2.
> In another experiment, two Japanese engineers from the Tokyo
> Metropolitan Research Laboratory of Public Health conducted
> experiments in which rats were exposed to total diesel engine exhaust
> from engines running normally containing 4.10 ppm nitrogen dioxide,
> and 8.10 ppm nitrogen oxide for 6 hr/day for 5 days/week for three
> months.  None of the rats died from the diesel exhaust.  The results
> of the experiments are conclusive: diesel exhaust is not lethal--but
> then, any diesel mechanic could have provided that information.

Running under *normal* conditions a well maintained, modern diesel
engine will give off exhaust that is non-lethal, nobody questions that.
The information I posted yesterday noted that it is extremely easy to
*modify* the operating conditions so as to radically increase the CO
content. Blocking the air intake, running the engine at a low rpm, or
desynchronizing the fuel injection, not to mention combining these
strategies, can increase the CO content of diesel exhaust to as high as
50,000 ppm, far above the level needed to kill a person within a few
minutes. 

You can't kill a person with a gun, either, unless you follow certain
strategies such as loading it with the proper ammunition, finding a
target, aiming the gun at it, and pulling the trigger. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:58 EDT 2001
Article: 921896 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: The Holocaust and Sweden
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 13:50:16 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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Sweden, neutral throughout WW II, is not normally associated with the
Holocaust. Nevertheless, surrounded by Holocaust countries and in a
difficult economic relationship with Nazi-Germany, it could not help
being affected by it. During the first stages of the Holocaust Sweden
provided refuge for tens of thousands of Jews seeking refuge from Nazi
terror in Central Europe as well as neighboring Nazi-occupied Norway
and Denmark. It also took in some of the Central European Jews who had
found temporary refuge in Finland, but still felt uncomfortable about
that country's military alliance with Nazi-Germany. During the last
months of the war Swedish diplomats Per Anger and Raoul Wallenberg
saved approx. 100,000 Hungarian Jews from certain death by issuing them
Swedish traveling documents. During the final weeks of the war Folke
Bernadotte, head of the Swedish Red Cross, embarked up a dangerous
rescue effort to save Jews and others in Nazi concentration camps in a
disintegrating Germany after having struck a deal with Reichsführer-SS
Heinrich Himmler, who had been softened up by his personal masseur,
Felix Kersten.

The following is an eyewitness account of Folke Bernadotte's rescue
effort.

Source: http://www.algonet.se/~hatikva/gottfar/



 Swedish Jewish history in 1945 close to the end of WW2: 


When survivors from the Holocaust arrived in Sweden.
 


This article is an eye witness account by Inga Gottfarb, who at the
time, in Spring 1945, worked for the American Joint Distribution
Committee in Sweden. Later, she carried out international rescue and
social assignments for JDC in a number of other c ountries. Ms Gottfarb
has also held positions as an adviser on immigrant affairs to Swedish
cabinet ministers.
 

A wise man, I think it was the philosopher Santayana, has said some
words which have now been set up over the entrance of the concentration
camp at Dachau: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemnded to
repeat it". The Hebrew word "zakhor", "to rem ember" occurs no less
than 169 times in our Bible, mostly alluding to the people and to the
land of Israel and to God. Its imperative form is the antithesis of
"forget": As long as the people remember it will not be forgotten". 
 The deepest impression on my life was made by the arrival of the
concentration camp survivors in Sweden in April 1945, just before the
end of the war in Europe. The small Jewish community in Malmö had
called me as the JDC representative to come and he lp with their
reception. I saw them coming to the south of Sweden with the White
Buses of the Bernadotte-expedition - all in all over twentyone thousand
persons of twentyseven different nationalities, of whom five to six
thousand were Jews. 

When the ferry came in
The ferry from Copenhagen came slowly into the ferry station. On board
were big white buses with a red cross and the Swedish flag painted on
their sides. They had brought people during bombardments and air
attacks from the German concentration camps throu gh Austria, Germany
and Denmark to safety in Sweden. One driver had lost his life in
Germany during an air attack. Others were seriously injured. They had
all risked their lives caught in the intensive battles of the last days
of the war. On board there were people of all nationalities, from
English to Chinese, from Russian to Spanish. In the port there was life
and bustle. Swedish Red Crossmen, women volunteers, sanitary soldiers,
policemen, railway personnel, soldiers, representatives of foreign
embass ies. Over the gangway streamed tall, blond Norwegian boys,
sailors, fishermen, students, with clear eyes and rosy cheeks. They had
already been taken care of in Denmark. They danced ashore, looked
healthy and fit. They eagerly grasped for our chocolates and
cigarettes. They longed to go home to Norway to fight for the
liberation of the country still occupied by Germany. 

They looked afraid
They were a strong contrast to all those others who were sent in their
railway carriages directly to the railway station - sick and dying
persons in dark bed compartments coughing feverishly and whispering a
prayer for water, or just wanting to hold the hand of a fellow human
being. Others, tired, emaciated stagger from the ferry, supporting,
almost carrying each other ashore. In grey striped prison clothes or
blankets, stiff with dirt, sometimes stinking horribly from carbolic
acid. No stockings, legs a s thin as sticks, skin red and chapped,
dirty shawls over their heads. Some with only rags around their feet
instead of footwear, some clip-clopping in torn "shoes" with wooden
soles. They looked afraid. Their only property a dirty bundle or a Red
Cross parcel, strained to their breast. Some of the Jews had yellow
triangles with a black border, the Star of David, the Jewish star, on
their prison clothes, while others had blue squares on theirs. A green
triangle meant a habitual criminal, a violet one a b ible-researcher,
pink denoted a homosexual, while black was for an asocial person, i.e.
a gypsy. And a red triangle showed the bearer to be a political
criminal - today we would call him a "resistance fighter". All these
signs in cloth sewn on their backs together with the painted X for
prisoner. 

We said Shalom to identify the Jewish survivors
We went along the row of survivors and said "hello". When we thought
somebody to be a Jew we tried a "Shalom". This word made their faces
beam. "We can't believe it, it is just like a dream", they said. But
when we made the mistake to say "Shalom" to some non-Jewish Polish
women, they would spit. The anti-semitism had been fanned infernally by
the Germans. 
 Sweden had been almost isolated throughout the war and many things
were strictly rationed, such as butter, bread, meat, cheese, coffee,
clothing and shoes, tobacco, cigarettes etc. We could not be very
generous towards the new arrivals. A woman could rece ive, for example,
only one dress, one pair of shoes, two pairs of stockings etc. And a
cardigan or canvas shoes only on a doctor's prescription! And no bra! 

Made bras out of the Swedish flag
One of my interviewees, a survivor, had been sent as a social worker to
visit a camp. There were about 150 camps in Sweden that summer. And
over 100 doctors only in the small province of Skåne to take care of
the survivors. In this particular camp where m y friend went, she found
that there was no Swedish flag, as there ought to have been, on the
flagpole. The girls had cut the flag, blue and yellow, to pieces to
make bras from it. Trembling she went to the camp director and
confessed what she had seen. He took it in good grace. But let us go
back to the reception of the twentyone thousand exinmates, a reception
which - as I pointed out - was not very good from the material aspect.
But emotionally it was overwhelming. The girls - almost 90 % of them
coming from women's camps, e.g. Ravensbrück - were most warmly
received. I think that here we can learn something very important. It
shows that when people really realize what human beings have been
through and what it means to be a refugee, they respond genero usly. It
is very much a question of understanding and good will. 

I am a lady!
Some of the women were placed in the quarantine of the Malmö City
Museum, the old castle. In the big halls among paintings, statues,
stuffed animals and aquariums there were mattresses all over the floor.
Many of the women were lying on their mattresses j ust to rest and
sleep. I talked to a woman who seemed very weak. She had been used for
18 months in the SS office in Auschwitz to work with registering the
persons who were gassed. She seemed to be very near a breakdown and so
felt I. But two days later I came back and I met the same woman, now an
elegant French lady in a nice dress and a hat - a gift from the Swedish
state. "You know Madame, I am a lady and not used to wear ready-made
clothes. I like to have my dresses made for me in Paris, so that they
fit me well. Can you help me to get some of my money from Switzerland
so that I can have some dresses made for me and feel like a lady
again". 

Some children survived
The few Jewish children who came, were 9-15 years old and had survived
because as English or Argentine citizens they had been permitted to
receive Red Cross parcels in the camps. They wanted to have books. I
was happy when I found "Alice in Wonderland" in a book-shop. Not so
easy in those days. 
 The small dancing-hall, Valencia, was also a quarantine. There were
100 young Polish girls of whom 35 were Jewish. The very young girls had
a leader, the German-born wife of a Polish rabbi. I told her I was sent
>from Joint. It was as if this was the great est miracle of the last
life-saving days. "Children", she said, "you know what Joint is and you
know from home what it means". 

"Now we will be taken care of".
"Could we just see a book with Hebrew letters and could we have some
Sabbath candles"? And she asked if we could help in getting them
separated from the Polish women, they were so antisemitic. This request
we later heard often. In the Tennis Stadium 300 J ewish girls from
Poland were happily sleeping on the floor. Some of them asked for
religious help. They wanted to read the "gaumel prayer" - the thanks
when one's life has been saved. We were permitted to arrange for an
ambulating synagogue service with m injan - the ten men needed for
service - to every camp we chose - even the quarantines. A very special
favour. We, the helpers, had so many problems to solve. We had, for
instance, no interpreters in many of the languages and we had to help
and rely on ea ch other - and our imagination. We were, for example,
unable at times to explain to the newly arrived why they had to take a
bath immediately upon arrival. That reminded them too much of the "bath
houses" at Auschwitz and the deadly gas Cyclon B. At times they thought
they were still in the hands of murderers and, frightened, refused to
enter the baths. Not until a Swedish volunteer, at one time a teacher,
tore off his clothes and rushed naked into the baths, did they dare to
follow him. 

Lipsticks cured depression momentarily
Some women were so depressed, so despondent, so degraded. Sometimes a
little thing can be of at least a momentary help. A dime store promised
me a gift worth two hundred dollars, a big sum at that time. But what
could I find that was not rationed? Lipstic ks, powder, brooches,
handkerchiefs - they proved an excellent remedy for restoring pride in
a woman's natural femininity and selfrespect. The lipsticks some of my
"saved" friends still remember. Last May in the Tel Aviv Museum there
was a commemoration of the Rescue of Holocaust Survivors saved to
Sweden. Miriam Akavia, one of them, said in her address: "We knew only
the German beast. We were shattered by agony and grief and losses ...
Our stay in Sweden was for many of us a wonderful period in our live s
... The Swedish people treated us in a philantropic - humanitarian
manner, expecting nothing in return". 



How did the Bernadotte-expedition come about?
I have now told you what I experienced in connection with the
Bernadotte-expedition but nothing about how it all came about, nor have
I told you anything about my knowledge of the man behind the name,
Folke Bernadotte. 
 There are many versions of the origins of the expedition and I think
that professional historians should devote time and efforts to study
the origins and carrying through of the expedition. I have, however, a
version of the origins, which in all modesty, I believe is the right
one. More or less by chance I found out the story of how it all began. 
 The Norwegian government in exile in London gave its ambassador in
Sweden, Niels Christian Ditleff, a special task: to see how the
Norwegians deported to Germany could be saved. Ditleff, a quiet
reserved man with visions, had always been pondering over ho w to save
his countrymen and other deported, including the Jews in German camps. 

Secret dinner meeting about saving the Norwegian camp inmates 
We know that Niels Christian Ditleff discussed the idea of a Swedish
relief corps with the Swedish finance tycoon, Marcus Wallenberg, a
relative of Raoul Wallenberg, at a very secret dinner at his home in
Stockholm in September 1944. The dinner was so sec ret, that Ditleff's
children served it. The ambassador's wife was in custody in Grini, the
Gestapo prison in Norway. The housekeeper was suspected of having a
relationship with a Norwegian collaborator, rightly as was shown later.
The idea of asking Count Bernadotte to head the expedition came up. He
was the president of the Swedish Red Cross and the nephew of King
Gustaf V. This story I happened to hear 12 years ago from a
carpet-dealer in Gothenburg, an old acquaintance of mine, Kerstin
Cruickshank, who knew Ditleff well since before the war. 
 As a result of this dinner conversation Ditleff discussed with Folke
Bernadotte on September 23,1944 the possibility of him leading the
operation. Why did Ditleff and Wallenberg put their hopes on Folke
Bernadotte? As a young boy at school he was a "nobod y", observed
neither by teachers nor by fellow students. But he had developped in
all aspects. He was not only the leader of the Swedish Red Cross, he
was also well thought of as president of the Swedish boyscout movement.
His wife, Estelle Manville, was American, and she was also very much
involved in scouting and humanitarian issues. Count Bernadotte was
known as a good negotiator, who inspired confidence and trust. An
optimist with a good sense of humour - fearless, easygoing and
unassuming. A deeply r eligious man and a humanitarian. And last but
not least: his uncle was the King of Sweden. This was the right man to
negotiate with Himmler the saving of the people in the camps. 

Bernadotte meets Himmler 
Bernadotte was introduced to Himmler by the latter's so called
"personal physician", Felix Kersten, an ex-Estonian masseur who towards
the end of the war worked on Himmler to release some concentration camp
inmates. Bernadotte flew to Germany and met Himmler the first time on
February 19, 1945 to discuss "Nordic questions" and repeated his
meetings with Himmler several times. His negotiations were based on the
instructions of the Swedish Minister of Foreign Affairs, Christian
Günther. 

Gilel Storch acts behind the scene 
Gilel Storch, representative of the World Jewish Congress in Sweden,
was also active in the creation of the expedition. His friend Norbert
Masur, also member of the World Jewish Congress, a businessman of
German Jewish origin, flew down to meet Himmler fo r a few hours
together with Kersten on April 21. This resulted in a written promise
to free one thousand so called "Polish women". Himmler apparently did
not dare to tell the truth for fear of Hitler, that these were Jewish
women. 
 It is a question for future historians to find out who should be given
credit for the origin of this humanitarian lifesaving expedition:
Bernadotte, Kersten, Storch, Masur, Ditleff and his Danish opposite
number Carl Hammerich, Günther? In reality it was probably so that all
those who negotiated and stood behind the negotiations with Himmler
through their active and verbal attacks on him supported each other.
They all made remarkable efforts on different levels and through
different actions. Behind them a ll were the Swedish Foreign Minister
and World Jewish Congress. 
 Christian Günther, the Swedish Foreign Minister, according to
ambassador Hägglöf in a letter to me, "dreamt only of saving the
detained Norwegians and Danes. The expedition was first aimed at Danish
and Norwegian prisoners and especially the Danish Jews". Günther
coordinated and issued directions to the expedition. After the war
Günther was suppposed to become Swedish Ambassador to Denmark but the
Danish resistance movement did not want to accept him.What a sad
mistake! 

308 courageous men and women ran the operation in a disintegrating
Germany
The whole expedition goes under the name of Bernadotte and rightly so.
He risked his life in Germany. But we should include the 308 brave men
and women who like him risked their lives saving 20 000 men and women
to a new life in freedom. The members of th e expedition still meet and
call themselves the "Bernadotte-contingent". 

And finally two very personal conclusions:
First, if we in the western free world at an early point had fought for
the human rights and dignity of the Jews on the whole European
continent, and second, if an independent Jewish state as Israel had
existed during the time of the third Reich as it exists today, and had
been able to fight for their fellow Jews and receive them into its
territory, then the Holocaust would never have reached the enormous
scale that it did. Let us learn and never forget! 
INGA GOTTFARB Stockholm, Sweden 



From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:58 EDT 2001
Article: 921922 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hoess Question: The 'Wolzek' Paradox" by J. McCarthy
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 16:47:46 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <73fedc95.0107060426.773ec089@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:
 
> 
>      Diesel engine exhaust contains about 18 percent free oxygen.
> People jammed into a small space would live longer with diesel exhaust
> than without.
> 
> 
>      The diesel exhaust would provide enough oxygen for people in a
> closed room to live indefinitely. 18 percent of diesel exhaust is free
> oxygen.  Normal air is only 21 percent. US Navy submarine tests have
> shown a 15 percent supply of oxygen is sufficient to sustain life
> indefinitely with no ill effects.


If it were intended to be used as a lethal agent, the engine would have
been tweaked to increase the CO and NO2 content. Nobody is disputing
the fact that diesel exhaust from a clean burning, properly
synchronized, well-maintained modern diesel engine operating under
normal circumstances is unsuitable as a lethal agent. Brown, Andrew,
and myself have provided you with detailed evidence showing that a
dirty burning, improperly synchronized, badly maintained diesel engine
designed in the late 1930s and operating under easily created
non-optimal conditions can easily be made to produce exhaust with
highly lethal CO and NO2 concentrations which would kill a person
forced to breathe it, the 18 oxygen content notwithstanding. A modern
diesel engine can be tweaked to produce a CO content as high as 60,000
ppm, enough to kill a person breathing it in a less than three minutes,
dispite the fact that there is an 18,000 ppm oxygen content as well.
Due to the specifics of the physiology and biochemistry of breathing,
even the 21,000 ppm oxygen content of normal air is IRRELEVANT if the
CO content reaches lethal levels, which are far lower than 21,000 ppm:

Source: http://www.boatwashington.org/carbon_monoxide.htm



PARTS PER MILLION CONCENTRATIONS 

Here is what the "parts per million" concentrations of carbon monoxide
mean to your health:



3,200 ppm   .32%  Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.

6,400 ppm   .64%  Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death
in less than 20 minutes.

12,800 ppm  1.28% Death in less than three minutes.


That is why thousands of people die every winter from the CO poduced by
fireplaces and heaters in rooms with otherwise normal breathing air but
poor circulation and ventilation. According to your specious logic they
shouldn't die, because the 21,000 ppm of oxygen in the ambient air
should be enough to sustain life.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:59 EDT 2001
Article: 921931 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:32:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B45B228.19F34515@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I'm not sure you have expressed the way you meant to express yourself. Did you
> really mean to say:
> 
> ALL of which were honoured in tthe breach.
> 
> Are you saying that the whole Nazi labour programe was, at base, a fraud.  Can
> yu advance any reason why I should believe this?
> 
> =========================================

Source:
http://www.thecorner.org/hists/total/n-german.htm#econ-reorganize


Economic Re-organization 

An economic re-organization of Germany was also undertaken. 

(i) The Labour Policy: 

(a) All labour unions were abolished by a decree of July 14, 1933. The
Labour Front was set up instead. Both employers and employees joined
it. According to the National Labour Law of January 20, 1934, the state
would exert direct influence and control over all business employing
more than twenty persons. In other words, both employers and employees
were put under the control of the government. 

(b) The employees were forbidden to strike. In future, if they had any
dispute with their employers concerning wages and conditions, they had
to refer them to the Labour Trustees.

(ii) Nazi Economic Policy: 

The goal of the re-organization of the economy was to achieve German
self-sufficiency (Autarky). In September 1936, a Four-Year Plan was
launched. It was intended to make Germany self-sufficient in coal,
iron, steel and other basic raw materials and improve the economy by
initiating public works and financial aid to industry and agriculture.
After 1935, Hitler also implemented a massive rearmament programme. 

Hitler's economic policy did solve the problem of unemployment.
Unemployment dropped from 6 millions in 1932 to less than I million in
1936. The reasons were that: 

(a) Many Germans were conscripted into the army. 

(b) Many Germans found jobs in the huge public work projects, Hitler
Youth, concentration camps and the Nazi party. 

(c) Jews and married women were forced out of public service as far as
possible, and so created many vacancies.



It was a fraud for numerous reasons. 

First of all, all workplaces of any size were under government control.
This gave workers the status of thanes, they were no allowed to strike
or make special demands, the word of the government representative was
final. Dissatisfaction was punished by concentration camp sentences.

Secondly, it involved large numbers of "make work" projects, such as
the Autobahns, the ever expanding network of concentration camps, or
the bureaucracy of the NSAPD. The Autobahns were valuable improvement
to the infrastructure and thus enabled the economy to function more
efficiently, but they were paid for out of the taxpayer's pocket.
Working in concentration camps or for the party bureaucracy, on the
other hand, were "service sector" jobs of a particularly reprehensible
type. How much national treasure was squandered choreographing the
torchlight processions and night marches the Nazis loved so much?

Thirdly, it involved making large numbers of workplaces available by
putting millions of men on "full scholarship". The largest class of
"scholarship holders" was the growing military, in principle a
non-productive "service sector" living off of the taxpayers. A large
number of "full scholarship" in concentration camps were also given to
the categories of people disliked by the regime. Since a program of
forced labor did not yet exist, these people were being fed and
accommodated at the taxpayer's expense. 

Fourthly, it directed a substantial part of its productive capacity to
the armaments sector. Armanents are generally intended never to be used
seriously, and they rapidly become obsolete. They are, economically
speaking, white elephants. Unfortunately Hitler didn't understand this,
and he used his armaments to the peak of their capacity. The result was
that the armaments of other countries were used against Germany,
creating untold numbers of jobs for architects and construction
workers.

Fifthly, it wasted economic resources trying to become self sufficient
in steel, Ersatz oil, and Ersatz rubber all of which cost far more to
produce in Germany than exports would have cost. Ersatz oil and rubber
involved complex production processes which tied up inordinate numbers
of men and resources, but the finished product was 'Ersatz' - inferior.

Sixthly, and to avoid too depressing a list, finally, it freed millions
of workplaces by forcing Jews and women out of public service and
commerce. Although this meant better job opportunities for men, it also
meant a vast waste of the resources the country had invested in the
education and training of the people forced out. Why educate a person
to be a research physicist at a cost of millions of marks and then
force him/her to leave the country or sell apples on the street?


The types of changes described above can only be effected if the
currency is protected from market forces, that is to say, made
non-convertible or partially convertible. This means that the country
has to pay the external debts it incurs for imports and other services
in some more desirable currency. This often means that it has to sell
the products that it produces at home for an excessively high price due
to self-sufficiency policies at a subtsantial loss on the world market.
It also restricts the international influence of the country as well as
the mobility of its citizens. In Nazi Germany's special case, it wanted
to rid the country of Jews, but it only allowed them to take $25 out of
the country, confiscating all of their other assets. It should be
obvious that you are not going to solve a problem by emigration if your
citizens' money is wortless beyond the national borders.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:59 EDT 2001
Article: 921941 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,soc.culture.nordic
Subject: Re: Nordic vs Scandinavian
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 17:59:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <910697fe.0107060549.36793b8a@posting.google.com>, Magnus
Link  wrote:

> Now, I find it an interesting question how Finland in the future will
> navigate on the Baltic scene. When a member of the Europan Union,
> Finland has no reason to act as more Scandinavian than she is. Now
> Finland finally has the chance to display herself as she really is.

That's a good point and it shows up in much of the public debate here.
Sweden is no longer the rich state that it used to be - it currently
has the lowest GDP/capita of the five Nordic countries (Iceland
included), and seems to be going nowehere fast. Norway stayed out of
the EU and, although richer tha  it has ever been, is hampered by a
price level that sees armies of Norwegians crossing the border every
day to shop in inexpensive Sweden. Sweden decided to stay out of EMU,
and is now seeing its krona becoming a marginal currency with declining
international value. Denmark participates as a pseudo-member: it is
retianing ite krone, but its value is fixed to the Euro, so it is an
expensive vanity currency right now. Finland is a model EU member and
will begin to use the physical Euro when it makes its debut next year.
So, in this very important respect the Scandinavian countries no longer
form a block, but have gone their own ways. Finland, still not used to
having a standard of living heigher than Sweden's, is in a quandry.
Should it continue its traditional status as the country cousin, odd
man out in Scandinavia, tolerated primarily because of its six
centuries of shared history with Sweden, a small fish in a big pond, or
should it look more towards the Baltics, where it has already forged a
big-brother relationship with Estonia and is currently branching out
into Latvia and Lithuania, a big fish in a small pond.

One way in which this is manifested is in the intense debate about the
future of compulsory Swedish instruction. As you yourself experienced,
most Finns of the younger generation speak good to well-nigh perfect
English. Nevertheless, the second official language of the country is
Swedish. Swedish is taught here as the "second domestic langauge", and
it is not a popular subject, reminding Finns as it does of a colonial
past which doomed Finland to the status of the battleground where
Sweden and Russia fought out there differences. The people you dined
with who spoke excellent English and German would probably not have
been so fluent in Swedish, even if there are manyeceptions. 

Official Finland wants at least the two main tourist cities, Helsinki
and Turku, to maintain a Swedish presence, and Scandinavian tourists
appreciate the fact that Swedish is widely spoken in Finland, even if
it is often more convenient for both parties to use English. Many
government positions require a knowledge of Swedish since Finnish law
guarantees the right of citizens to be served by the authorities in
their own language. This means that despite the fact that many younger
Finns would rather not study Swedish at all and devote the time spent
studying Swedish to some other language, Swedish is the foreign
language they are most likely to encounter on a year-round basis, and a
knowledge of Swedish is required for many jobs involving contact with
the public. The situation is changing, though. Russian is already
widely spoken by the increasing number of tourists from Russia, and a
practical command of spoken Russian, rare as recently as ten years ago,
is becoming more common, particularly in south-eastern Finland in the
cities close to the Russian border such as Hamina, Lappeenranta, and
Imatra. Most of the restaurants and shops in central Helsinki have
Russian menus or floorplans, and some can offer service in Russian as
well.

Still, Finland has more in common with Sweden and the other
Scandinavian countries than it does with the Baltics, and I would
suspect that Estonia, which has more in common with Finland and quite a
lot in common with Sweden, might orient itself more towards Scandinavia
in the future, feeling more secure that way than it would with only one
big brother.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:59 EDT 2001
Article: 921963 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 19:34:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B45D16A.C45A4007@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Eugene, you can pick, peck, carp, snipe, and sneer until it's snowing in
> Uganda. The
> Bottom Line (if I may be permitted the expression) is:
> 
> --The Anglo-Saxon countries continued to adhere more or less to the
> principles of
> classical economics and never even got to first place in solving the problem
> of mass
> unemployment.
> 
> --Nazi Germany said: "Fuck economics" and solved the problem.
> 
> =============================================

Their "solution" led to the increasing militarization of the country,
something which inevitably got it involved in an all fronts, no holds
barred war with most of the world. Their "Fuck economics" policy was
about as useful in the long run as peeing in your pants is to keep warm
in winter weather.

Twelve years of Nazi economics and policies left Germany in a state you
wouldn't wish on your worst enemy.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:11:59 EDT 2001
Article: 921974 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Supersedes: <060720012009502286%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 20:18:23 +0300
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In article <3B45D16A.C45A4007@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> You're telling us that all that was necessary was that you were seen to be
> "dissatisfied?"  It was not necessary to show dfiance or even recalcitrance?
> Come
> now, Eugene. I realize that your agenda is to shit on the Nazis at every
> opportunity
> but there are some things I am not going to believe.
> 
> ==================================

Many of the big German concentration camps, Dachau, for example, began
as places to intern people who were "dissatisfied" enough to speak out
publicly against the regime. Stripping a portion of the population of
their citizenship, civil rights, and human dignity, scapegoating, book
burnings, mass sterilizations, forbidding strikes, Germany's growing
role as international bully, an increasingly oppressive Gestapo and,
finally, the large-scale euthanasia of "useless mouths to feed",
including many a person's parents, grandparents, or mentally retarded
family member, were enough to alienate a *lot* of ordinary German
citizens, deprived by the Nazis of the possibility to change their
government, long before the war broke out in earnest in 1941.


Martin Niemüller described the situation succinctly:

In Germany, they first came for the Communists and I didn¹t speak up
because I wasn¹t a Communist. 
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn¹t speak up because I wasn¹t a
Jew. 
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn¹t speak up because I
wasn¹t a trade unionist. 
Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn¹t speak up because I was a
Protestant. 
Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up.

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
I realize that your agenda is to shit on the Nazis at every
> opportunity
> but there are some things I am not going to believe.
> 
> ==================================

PTRRRRR! kerTHWACK! [Sound of jet-propelled turd being launched and
impacting on swastika-shaped bullseye] 

Right you are.

Any ideology whose policy includes terrorizing its own citizenry,
depriving them of the opportunity to change governments, trashing an
entire continent, and practicing systematic genocide deserves to be
shat on as much and as often as is humanly possible.

PTRRRRR! kerTHWACK! 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:12:00 EDT 2001
Article: 921997 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 21:07:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article
,
 Jeffrey G. Brown  wrote:

> In article , a gutless coward 
> cringinf behind  wrote:
> 
> > In article <050720011027081317%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>, Eugene Holman 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > (http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl/html/eng/start/). His correct
> > > job designation is head of the Historical Department at the Auschwitz
> > > State Museum
> > 
> > (*blink!*) I can't believe it that anyone in this day and age, least of all 
> > our oh so erudite Dr. Holman, could be so naive as to base his argument on 
> > material found at a website in a communist country.
> 
> Irrelevant. Demonstrate that the material referenced is itself incorrect.
> 
> Oops... that would require that you actually know something about Auschwitz.
> 
> > [...deletia...]
> 
> > > [http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-03.htm
> > > l].
> > 
> > This guy is so thick that he will even refer to Nizkor, a Jewish site.
> 
> Irrelevant. Demonstrate that the material referenced is itself incorrect.
> 
> Oops... that would require that you actually know something about the
> Holocaust.
> 
> Never mind. I wouldn't want you to pop an aneurysm or anything...
> 

Our friend "88!!" would be well advised to learn something about Poland
and modern European history. Poland, now a member of NATO, has not been
a "communist country" for the past ten years.

Regards,
Eugen Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:12:00 EDT 2001
Article: 922296 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: OK, let's talk diesel exhaust (Was Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie)
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 13:03:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 147
Message-ID: <070720011303514159%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3b57ccff.730293075@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Holman still casting his insults at the intelligence of the world
> says:
> >Running under *normal* conditions a well maintained, modern diesel
> >engine will give off exhaust that is non lethal, nobody questions that.
> >The information I posted yesterday noted that it is extremely easy to
> >modify the operating conditions to radically increase the CO content.
> >Blocking the air intake, running the engine at a low rpm, or
> >desynchronizing the fuel injection, not to mention combining these
> >strategies, can increase the CO content of diesel exhaust to as high as
> >50,000 ppm, far above the level needed to kill a person within a few
> >minutes. 
> >
> >You can't kill a person with a gun, either, unless you load it with the
> >proper ammunition, aim it, and pull the trigger. 
> 
> 
> Only an idiot would try and tell the world the Germans used Diesel
> engines that had to be mistuned in stead of using gasoline engines
> that could do it way better while running at optimum.
> 
> The fact is there are no tales from any SS confessions or "survivor"
> testimonies that says anything about the Germans mistuning the
> engines. The whole thing is a 'brain' child of Jews on
> alt.revisionism.

No. It's the brainchild of Lieutenant Gerstein

Sourece:
http://www.logon.org/_domain/holocaustrevealed.org/Poland/Belzec.htm


The Belzec Death Camp

BELZEC'S GAS CHAMBERS

SS Lieutenant Gerstein also visited Belzec, and his famous description
of the gas chambers is as horrible as any. Gerstein, an expert in
Cyclone B gas, delivered a load of the experimental gas to Belzec. What
he witnessed during the carbon monoxide gassing of Jews stunned him.
Later he tried to convince papal officers and diplomats, but no one
believed him.[12] His report follows: 

In the hot August weather the whole place smelt like the plague and
there were millions of flies everywhere. . . . In front of us a sort of
bathhouse with geraniums, then a few steps, and then three rooms each
on the right and left, 5 x 5 m., 1.9 m. high, with wooden doors like
garages. . . . On the roof, as a "witty little joke," the Star of
David! In front of the building a notice: Heckenholt Institute. The
next morning the transport arrived, containing 6,700 people, of whom
1,450 were dead. 200 Ukrainians tore open the doors and drove people
out of the wagons with their leather whips. A big loudspeaker gave
further instructions: undress completely, take off artificial limbs,
spectacles, etc. Give up valuables at the counter without credit notes
or receipts. Tie shoes together carefully (for textile salvage),
otherwise in the pile of shoes, which was a good 25 m. high, no-one
could have found a pair that matched. . . . Then the procession began
to move, a long line of naked men, women, children. An SS man calmly
told the crowd to take a deep breath in the disinfection chambers to
expand the lungs. Inhalation would prevent disease and infection. When
asked what was going to happen to them, he answered: "Well, of course,
the men must work, building houses and roads, but the women don't have
to work. Only if they want to, they can help with the housework or in
the kitchen." This gave some amount of these poor people a glimmer of
hope that lasted long enough for them to take the few steps into the
chambers without resisting. The majority realized -- the smell told
them what their fate was to be! So they climbed the steps and then they
saw everything. Mothers with babies at the breast, naked little
children, adults, men, women -- all naked. They hesitated, but they
went into the gas chambers, pushed on by those behind them, or driven
in by the leather whips of the SS. Most of them without saying a word.
A Jewess of about 40, with eyes blazing, called down upon the heads of
the murderers the blood being spilt. She received six lashes in the
face from the commandant's riding whip. Many people in the packed
chamber were praying, and Gerstein prayed with them. The doors closed.
But the diesel engine did not work. The people waited in the chamber,
some weeping, some standing quietly. Finally, after three hours, the
diesel fired up: Up till then people were alive in these four gas
chambers, four times 750 people in four times 45 cubic meters! Another
25 minutes went by. True, many were now dead. One could see that
through the little glass window through which the electric light lit up
the chamber for a moment. After 28 minutes few were still alive. At
last, after 32 minutes everyone was dead! The Jewish work squad opened
the doors and faced the standing upright dead pressed tightly together,
unable, even in death, to fall down or bend over: One could tell the
families, even in death. They were still holding hands, stiffened in
death, so that it was difficult to tear them apart in order to clear
the chamber for the next load. The corpses were thrown out -- wet with
sweat and urine, soiled with excrement, menstrual blood on their legs.
Children's bodies flew through the air. . . . The naked corpses were
carried in wooden barrows just a few meters away to the pits. . . .
After some days the putrefying bodies swelled up and by then, a short
time later, collapsed violently so that a new batch could be thrown on
top of them. Then 10 cm. of sand was strewn over it so that only a few
single heads and arms stuck out.[13] If that method of execution was
not bad enough, the Nazis had a unique process in reserve for those
times when the gas facilities broke down or were overcrowded, which
seemed often. The deportees who had been standing in the open without
food for days were crammed into the train cars and sent a mile away.
The floors had been covered with lime, and the victims suffocated -- in
time.[14] Karski viewed that method of killing and reported on it. He
described the guard marching the Jews to the waiting freight cars. A
guard told the assembled people that they would be taken to a labor
camp. Freight cars may carry 40 soldiers or 8 horses, but the Germans
jammed 120 to 130 Jews into each car. The policeman slammed doors
across the arms and legs that protruded: The floors of the car had been
covered with a thick, white powder. It was quicklime. Quicklime is
simply unslaked lime or calcium oxide that has been dehydrated. Anyone
who has seen cement being mixed knows what occurs when water is poured
on lime. The mixture bubbles and steams as the powder combines with the
water generating a searing heat. The lime served a double purpose in
the Nazi economy or brutality: The moist flesh coming on contact with
the lime is quickly dehydrated and burned. The occupants of the cars
would be literally burned to death before long, the flesh eaten from
their bones. The Jews would die in agony. The lime was also an
efficient and inexpensive preventative against the spreading of disease
by the decomposing bodies. Not until evening were the forty-six cars
packed. The train "with its quivering cargo of flesh seemed to throb,
vibrate, rock and jump as if bewitched." After a period of certain
calm, the train began "to moan and sob, wail and howl." A few dozen
dead bodies remained on the ground. In the now quiet camp the only
sounds were the inhuman screams that echoed from the moving train. Then
these, too, ceased. All that was now left was the stench of excrement
and rotting straw and a queer, sickening, acidulous odor which, I
thought, may have come from the quantities of blood that had stained
the ground. Karski, hearing the dwindling cries, pictured the journey
in his mind. After a 13 kilometer trip, the train would halt in an
empty field: Then nothing at all would happen. The train would stand
stock still, patiently waiting while death penetrated into every corner
of its interior. This would take from two to four days. The disposal
process took from three to six days. Then the train would return to
begin the process again.[15] Few inmates escaped from Belzec and only
one survived the war.[16] [12] Gersteins and his reports are in
Meltzer, 128; Toland, Hitler, 713- 714; Sereny 111; Saul Friedlander,
Kurt Gerstein; and Pierre Joffroy, A Spy for God. [13] Gerhard
Schoenberner, The Yellow Star, 171-174. [14] Sereny, 112. [15] Karski,
"Polish Death Camp," 21. [16] EJ 4:455 Friedlander, Saul. Kurt
Gernstein. New York: Knopf, 1969. Joffrey, Pierre. A Spy for God: The
Ordeal of Kurt Gernstein. New York: Harcourt Brace, 1971 Karski, Jan.
"Polish Death Camp." Colliers, October 14, 1944, 12. Memoir. Meltzer,
Milton. Never to Forget. Schoenbacher, Gehard. The Yellow Star. New
York: Bantam, 1973 Sereny, Gitta. Into that Darkness: From Mercy
Killing to Mass Murder. Toland, John. Hitler. New York Doubleday, 1976
Exerpted From "Hitler's Death Camps" Konnilyn G. Feig. LOC D810.J4 F36
1981


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:12:00 EDT 2001
Article: 922313 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Supersedes: <070720011232572681%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 13:40:33 +0300
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In article <3B460AF7.C518080B@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> >
> > Many of the big German concentration camps, Dachau, for example, began
> > as places to intern people who were "dissatisfied" enough to speak out
> > publicly against the regime. Stripping a portion of the population of
> > their citizenship, civil rights, and human dignity, scapegoating, book
> > burnings, mass sterilizations, forbidding strikes, Germany's growing
> > role as international bully, an increasingly oppressive Gestapo and,
> > finally, the large-scale euthanasia of "useless mouths to feed",
> > including many a person's parents, grandparents, or mentally retarded
> > family member, were enough to alienate a *lot* of ordinary German
> > citizens, deprived by the Nazis of the possibility to change their
> > government, long before the war broke out in earnest in 1941.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Eugene: I have some wonderful news: the war's over; has been over for 55
> years.
> REJOICE: Loose lips don't sink ships any more.
> 
> ======================================

You know as well as I do that I was not talking about the war. I was
talking about the treatment of dissenters in a country that was at war
against a substantial and ever increasing number of its own citizens.
Actually, the fact that so many Germans were opposed to Nazism and to
Hitler had a decisive influence on the implementation of Nazi policies
and the outcome of the war. The rescue effort described below would not
have taken place had there not been opponents to Nazi policy such as
Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz *within* the Nazi bureaucracy.

Source: http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/denmark.htm


Denmark was the only occupied country that actively resisted the Nazi
regime's attempts to deport its Jewish citizens. On September 28, 1943,
Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, a German diplomat, secretly informed the
Danish resistance that the Nazis were planning to deport the Danish
Jews. The Danes responded quickly, organizing a nationwide effort to
smuggle the Jews by sea to neutral Sweden. Warned of the German plans,
Jews began to leave Copenhagen, where most of the 8,000 Jews in Denmark
lived, and other cities, by train, car, and on foot. With the help of
the Danish people, they found hiding places in homes, hospitals, and
churches. Within a two-week period fishermen helped ferry 7,220 Danish
Jews and 680 non-Jewish family members to safety across the narrow body
of water separating Denmark from Sweden.

The Danish rescue effort was unique because it was nationwide. It was
not completely successful, however. Almost 500 Danish Jews were
deported to the Theresienstadt ghetto in Czechoslovakia. Yet even of
these Jews, all but 51 survived the Holocaust, largely because Danish
officials pressured the Germans with their concerns for the well-being
of those who had been deported. The Danes proved that widespread
support for Jews and resistance to Nazi policies could save lives.




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sat Jul  7 17:12:01 EDT 2001
Article: 922388 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 18:01:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 89
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In article <3B470D06.3A2E9749@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>
> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 



> You will no doubt plead: "Oh no, I'm not bad-mouthing Germany, only the
> particular regime they had from 1933-45.  Indeed, some of my best friends are
> Germans." I'm not at all sure a contemporary German would see it that way.
> 

I am. I studied in Germany during the mid 1960s and attended the
compulsory de-nazification lectures like everyine else. Germans of my
generation (middle aged) tend to look at the Nazi regime the same way
as I do it they were not raised in the GDR, where there was no
de-Nazification.

> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 
> But you are strangely silent about the crimes of Stalinist Russia which were
> far worse and have never been apologized  for.
> 
> ======================================================

In this forum I am relatively silent about them, because this is
primarily devoted to Holocaust revisionism. Novertheless, I have
occasionally brought up the Ukrainian famine and Soviet demographic
policies in the Baltics up for discussion here. As you might remember I
have worked in the Baltics, particularly Estonia, on various projects
aimed at sealing up the wounds left by the Soviet regime. I also
participate in soc.culture.baltics, where the crimes of the USSR, not
Stalinist Russia, but the USSR, including the shooting by Soviet
troops, nominally under the command of Mikahael Sergeyevich Gorbachev,
of unarmed Lithuanian and Latvia civilians in 1991, are discussed in
detail.

You like to emphasize the irrational element in our thinking. I'll use
this opportunity to state quite publicly (and probably take flack) that
my specific proclivities  prejudices, and appetites ensure that I am
more appalled by what the Germans did when they lapsed into barbarism
than I am by what the Russians and their henchmen did in their attempt
to ascend from it. There is a strong "Say it ain't so, Joe," element in
my makeup, which, ever since my grandfather introduced me to Beethoven 
at the age of seven, has been very positively disposed to Germany and
things German.

Regards,
Eugene Holman





> 
> >
> >
> > Source: http://www.ushmm.org/outreach/denmark.htm
> >
> > 
> > Denmark was the only occupied country that actively resisted the Nazi
> > regime's attempts to deport its Jewish citizens. On September 28, 1943,
> > Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, a German diplomat, secretly informed the
> > Danish resistance that the Nazis were planning to deport the Danish
> > Jews. The Danes responded quickly, organizing a nationwide effort to
> > smuggle the Jews by sea to neutral Sweden. Warned of the German plans,
> > Jews began to leave Copenhagen, where most of the 8,000 Jews in Denmark
> > lived, and other cities, by train, car, and on foot. With the help of
> > the Danish people, they found hiding places in homes, hospitals, and
> > churches. Within a two-week period fishermen helped ferry 7,220 Danish
> > Jews and 680 non-Jewish family members to safety across the narrow body
> > of water separating Denmark from Sweden.
> >
> > The Danish rescue effort was unique because it was nationwide. It was
> > not completely successful, however. Almost 500 Danish Jews were
> > deported to the Theresienstadt ghetto in Czechoslovakia. Yet even of
> > these Jews, all but 51 survived the Holocaust, largely because Danish
> > officials pressured the Germans with their concerns for the well-being
> > of those who had been deported. The Danes proved that widespread
> > support for Jews and resistance to Nazi policies could save lives.
> >
> > 
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:33 EDT 2001
Article: 922866 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.african.american,alt.flame.niggers,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: African American Inventions List
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 17:12:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 135
Message-ID: <080720011712143238%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B472219.75EA62D2@hotmail.com>, hero 
wrote:


Let's get something more sophisticated, Here are the patents issued to
one African-American:

Source: http://www.princeton.edu/~mcbrown/display/gourdine_patents.html

Patents Issued to Meredith C. Gourdine: Physicist, Engineer 


Return to Meredith C. Gourdine: Physicist, Engineer
------------------------------------------------------------------------

*  The number of patents attributed to Meredith C. Gourdine, as cited
in the following sources ... 
U.S. Patent and Trademark Office Offical Gazzette -- 27 patents issued
between 1971-1996.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Patent Number    Date    Patent Title    Inventors

1. U.S. 5,548,907, Aug. 27, 1996, Method and Apparatus for Transferring
Heat, Mass, and Momentum Between a Fluid and a Surface., Gourdine,
Meredith C., Houston, Texas 

2. U.S. 5,487,957, Jan. 30, 1996, Method and Apparatus for Converting
Chemical and Thermal Energy into Electricity., Gourdine, Meredith,
Pearland, Texas 

3. U.S. 5,456,596, Oct. 10, 1995, Method and Apparatus for Producing
Multivortex Fluid Flow., Gourdine, Meredith, Houston, Texas 

4. U.S. 5,422,787, Jun. 6, 1995, Apparatus and Method for Cooling Heat
Generating Electronic Components in a Cabinet., Gourdine, Meredith C.,
Houston, Texas 

5. U.S. 5,297,005, Mar. 22, 1994, Apparatus and Method for Cooling Heat
Generating Electronic Components in a Cabinet., Gourdine, Meredith C.,
Houston, Texas 

6. U.S. 4,916,033, Apr. 10, 1990, Method and Apparatus fFor Converting
Chemical and Thermal Energy into Electricity., Gourdine, Meredith,
Pearland, Texas 

7. U.S. 4,850,537, Jul. 25, 1989, Method and Apparatus for Producing
Multivortex Fluid Flow., Gourdine, Meredith, Pearland, Texas 

8. U.S. 4,671,805, Jun. 9, 1987, Method for Airport Fog Precipitation.,
Gourdine, Meredith C., East Orange, New Jersey 

9. U.S. 4,574,092, Mar. 4, 1986, Electrogasdynamic Coating System.,
Gourdine, Meredith C., East Orange, New Jersey 

10. U.S. 4,555,909, Dec. 3, 1985, Method and Apparatus for Improved
Cooling of Hot Materials., Gourdine, Meredith C., East Orange, New
Jersey 

11. U.S. 4,498,631, Feb. 12, 1985, Electrogasdynamic Coating System.,
Gourdine, Meredith C., East Orange, New Jersey 

12. U.S. 4,433,003, Feb. 21, 1984, Electrogasdynamic Coating System.,
Gourdine, Meredith C., East Orange, New Jersey 

13. U.S. 3,991,710, Nov. 16, 1976, Electrogasdynamic Production Line
Coating System., Gourdine, Meredith C., Fort Lee, New Jersey Diamond,
Stephen, Livingston, New Jersey Porter, Donald, Carlstadt, New Jersey 

14. U.S. 3,853,580, Dec. 10, 1974, Methods For Electrogasdynamic
Coating., Gourdine, Meredith C., East Orange, New Jersey 

15. U.S. 3,757,491, Sep. 11, 1973, Apparatus For Suppressing Airborne
Particles., Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New Jersey 

16. U.S. 3,718,029, Nov. 14, 1972, Electrostatic Mass Per Unit Volume
Dust Monitor., Gourdine, Meredith C., Fort Lee, New Jersey Law, S.
Edward, Athens, Georgia 

17. U.S. 3,704,572, Dec. 5, 1972, Electrostatic Precipitator System.,
Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New Jersey Sayers, Howard A.,
Clifton, New Jersey 

18. U.S. 3,673,463, Jun. 27, 1972, Methods And Apparatus For
Electrogasdynamic Coating., Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New
Jersey 

19. U.S. 3,650,092, Mar. 21, 1972, Electrogasdynamic Precipitator
Utilizing Retarding Fields., Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New
Jersey Von Voros, Geza, Glen Rock, New Jersey Chiang, Ta Kuan, Berkeley
Heights, New Jersey 

20. U.S. 3,613,993, Oct. 19, 1971, ELECTROSTATIC PAINTING METHOD AND
APPARATUS.., Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New Jersey Collier,
Edward L., Morris Plains, New Jersey Lewis, Gerald P., West Orange, New
Jersey McCrae, Harold, Upper Montclair, New Jersey Porter, Donald H.,
Carlstadt, New Jersey 

21. U.S. 3,612,923, Oct. 12, 1971, Electrogasdynamic Converter With
Resistive Channel. Collier, Edward L., Morris Plains, New Jersey
Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New Jersey McCrae, Harold W., Upper
Montclair, New Jersey 

22. U.S. 3,592,541, Jul. 13, 1971, Copying System Using
Electrogasdynamics., Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New Jersey 

23. U.S. 3,585,420, Jun. 15, 1971, Alternating Current Systems
Employing Multiple Electrogasdynamic Devices., Gourdine, Meredith C.,
West Orange, New Jersey 

24. U.S. 3,582,694, Jun. 1, 1971, Electrogasdynamic Systems And
Methods., Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New Jersey 

25. U.S. 3,581,468, Jun. 1, 1971, Turbulence Inducing Electrogasdynamic
Precipitator., Gourdine, Meredith C., West Orange, New Jersey Von
Voros, Geza, Glen Rock, New Jersey Chiang, Ta Kuan, Berkeley Heights,
New Jersey 

26. U.S. 3,573,845, Apr. 6, 1971, Improved Acoustic Image Reproduction
System Using a Piezoelectric Printer And Electrogasdynamics., Gourdine,
Meredith C., West Orange, New Jersey 

27. U.S. 3,562,585, Feb. 9, 1971, Electrogasdynamic Systems Adapted for
Circuit Breaking and Other Purposes., Gourdine, Meredith C., West
Orange, New Jersey 
Top of Page

Copyright © 1995-2000
Comments/Suggestions: Mitchell C. Brown
The Faces of Science: African Americans in the Sciences   All rights
reserved

URL:
http://www.princeton.edu/~mcbrown/display/gourdine_patents.htmlLast
updated: Sun Jun 4 18:17:13 2000


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:33 EDT 2001
Article: 923021 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Responses to Revisionist Arguments -- Wiesenthal 1
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 23:24:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <080720012324325307%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <73fedc95.0107081147.41e80d30@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

>

> > 3. The estimates of Jewish losses during the Holocaust are greatly
> > exaggerated. There were never even 6 million Jews in Germany. 
> 
> Ture  X
> 
> False

Piss poor even for you. The overwhelming majority of Holocaust victims
were Polish, Hungarian, Lithuanian, Belarussians, and Ukrainian Jews.



>  
> > 7. Zyklon B was a fumigant. It wasn't a practical agent for mass murder. 
> 
> True  X
> 
> False

If it can kill lice, it can kill people. It is a very practical agent
for mass murder. It is much more difficult to kill cold-blooded
creatures ush as lice with Zyklon-B than it is to kill humans. To kill
lice, you need 16,000 ppm sustained over 20 hours, while to kill people
you need only 300 ppm sustained over fifteen minutes.


>
> > 11. American engineer and execution 'expert', Fred Leuchter, proved that
> > the 'so-called' gas chambers at Auschwitz could not have been used for
> > their 'alleged' purpose. 
> 
> True
> 
> False  X

Ahah! A reading comprehension slip. You are correct here. Leuchter
determined that the alleged gas chambers at Auschwitz were able to
sustain the high concentrations of Zyklon-B needed to kill lice; he
stated that the cyanide compounds found on the walls were the result of
a fumigation, "once, long ago". Given that it take colossally higher
concentrations of cyanide to kill lice than it does to kill people,
Leuchter admits that the structures in question could have been used to
kill people.

 
>  
> > 12. Didn't Simon Wiesenthal himself state that there were no extermination
> > camps in Germany? 
> 
> True  X
> 
> False


Yes he did. The extermination camps, Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno,
Majdanek, Sobibor, and Treblinka were all in Nazi-occupied Poland.
Exterminational activities on a minor scale were carried out at Nazi
concentration camps in Germany, such as Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen, and
Stutthof in Germany, as well as at Natzweiler in France. Extermination
activities on a larger scale were also carried out at euthanasia
centers in Germany:  Bernburg, Brandenburg, Grafeneck, Hadamar,
Hartheim, and Sonnenstein. These places were not "camps", but they were
extermination centers.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:33 EDT 2001
Article: 923319 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!HSNX.atgi.net!codeine.org!deine.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!195.158.233.21!news1.ebone.net!news.ebone.net!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi!user
From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: David Cole
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 08:33:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 26
Message-ID: 
References: <20010707194008.30471.qmail@nym.alias.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: f24-134-ope.pc.helsinki.fi
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:923319 soc.culture.israel:356596

In article <20010707194008.30471.qmail@nym.alias.net>, lcs Mixmaster
Remailer  wrote:

> not a full member yet, dickhead!!!!!
> 
> Don't rewrite history, communist sob.

What do you mean,  not a full member yet?

Source: http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/1999/03/F.RU.990315135852.html



NATO: Poland, Hungary, And The Czech Republic Become Full Members

By Julie Moffett


Independence, Missouri, 15 March 1999 (RFE/RL) -- Poland, Hungary and the
Czech Republic officially joined the NATO military alliance as full
members on March 12.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:33 EDT 2001
Article: 923485 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 11:38:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <090720011138525262%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B4253D0@MailAndNews.com>  <3B41427B.3921016C@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0107031258.57403bf9@posting.google.com> <3B423101.A0E1B234@earthlink.net>  <3B44DB4A.C388D94C@earthlink.net>  <3B45B228.19F34515@earthlink.net> <060720011732422549%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B45D16A.C45A4007@earthlink.net> <060720012018233179%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B460AF7.C518080B@earthlink.net> <070720011340336589%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B470D06.3A2E9749@earthlink.net>  <3B4921B3.38837C51@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B4921B3.38837C51@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Well let's just say I have reason to doubt that their attitudes are
> everything that
> the Jews feel those attitudes ought to be. Maybe they feel there should be
> some sort
> of limit on how long they are supposed to walk the earth with their heads
> hung in
> shame.
> 
> ============================================
> 

Today's generation of Germans does not walk with their heads hung in
shame. 

They are quite proud of having done what is doable with respect to
apologizing and making amends for the trashing of an entire continent
and the systematic genocide committed in the name of Germany by their
parents and grandparents. You, in your ostrich-like manner, choose "not
to believe" that these things happened, Germans of your generation do
not have that luxury. They have also been smart enough to make sure
that their children are aware of Germany's shameful history between
1933 and 1945, and that they will never allow a leader no matter how
charismatic, to bring them to such depths of depravity as they reached
during that barbaric era.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:34 EDT 2001
Article: 923494 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
Supersedes: <090720011149203051%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 12:00:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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References: <5tkrnm.tdU.8@llfru.mil> <73fedc95.0107082019.1a5db52@posting.google.com>
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In article <73fedc95.0107082019.1a5db52@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

> Ken Lucke  wrote in message
> news:<5tkrnm.tdU.8@llfru.mil>...
> > It's very blank today, 
> 
> 
> From "Auschwitz 1270 to the Present", by van  Pelt and Dwork 
> 
> 
>   "When Auschwitz was transformed into a  museum after the war, the
> decision was taken to concentrate the  history of the whole complex
> into one of its component parts. The infamous crematoria where the
> mass murders had taken place lay in ruins in Birkenau, two miles away.
> The committee felt that a crematorium was required at the end of the
> memorial journey, and crematorium I was reconstructed to speak for the
> history of the incinerators at Birkenau. This program of usurpation
> was rather detailed. A chimney, the ultimate symbol of Birkenau, was
> re-created; four hatched openings in the roof, as if for pouring
> Zyklon B into the gas chamber below, were installed, and two of the
> three furnaces were rebuilt using original parts. There are no signs
> to explain these restitutions, they were not marked at the time, and
> the guides remain silent about it when they take visitors through this
> building that is presumed by the tourist to be the place where it
> happened."
> 
>    Even the most avid German hating Holocaust promoter knows the gas
> chambers shown to the public at Auschwitz are not genuine.  Yet, if
> you try to say this publicly in Germany, Switzerland, or France, you
> will go to jail.

1. There is only *one* gas chamber on display at Auschwitz, the one at
Krema I in Auschwitz-Stammlager.
2. It gas chamber is a partial restoration of a facility that was
decommissioned as a gas chamber, converted to an air-raid shelter, and
then restored to a condition approximating the state it had when
functioning as a gas chamber.
3. Gassings did indeed take place precisely in those premises.
4. Owing to the sensitive nature of the subject, there is no more
reason to distract attention form what is shrine for the millions of
people who lost relatives at Auschwitz with cards, arrows, and labels
giving superfluous information about the restoration work than there is
to clutter up a dinosaur skeleton on display at a natural history
museum with information about which bones are plaster of Paris
reconstructions.
5. Standard books about Auschwitz contain this information for those
who want or need to know it.
6. There is no law against stating publicly in Germany or elsewhere
that the gas chamber is a partial restoration or a museumification.
Stating that it is "not genuine", implying that it is a deliberate
deception is something else. The gas chamber of Krema I was restored
for justifiable historical reasons. The present partial restoration is
located in the place where some of the gassings of Jews and Soviet POWs
did, indeed, take place.

Even the most avid revisionist with any sense of historical fact will
admit that thousands of people were gassed within the premises housing
the partially restored Krema I gas chamber.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:35 EDT 2001
Article: 923576 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!teleglobe.net!nntp.cifnet.net!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 18:35:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 140
Message-ID: <100720011835456230%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B4253D0@MailAndNews.com>  <3B41427B.3921016C@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0107031258.57403bf9@posting.google.com> <3B423101.A0E1B234@earthlink.net>  <3B44DB4A.C388D94C@earthlink.net>  <3B45B228.19F34515@earthlink.net> <060720011732422549%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B45D16A.C45A4007@earthlink.net> <060720012018233179%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B460AF7.C518080B@earthlink.net> <070720011340336589%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B470D06.3A2E9749@earthlink.net>  <3B4921B3.38837C51@earthlink.net> <090720011138525262%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49B399.D7DDD07@earthlink.net> <090720011845244477%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49E1DC.B9288D39@earthlink.net> <090720012220320877%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Even if I were to accept your above litany of villainy at face value (which I
> do
> not) it still does not address the question: the world is now 55 years (two
> full
> generations) removed from WWII. Soppose that I were a German aged --say-- 25
> and
> came to you and asked: "Eugene, when can I begin to live a normal life. When
> is
> there going to be an end to people like yourself continuing to shit on my
> country
> for things that happened 55 to 60 years ago. You tell us Germans we need to
> "come
> to terms" with those events. What the hell do you think we HAVE been doing
> for the
> past 55 years? Just exactly what are we SUPPOSED to do: make a pilgrimage to
> the
> Wailing Wall in Jerusalem, moan, howl, and wail, rend our garments and then
> fall
> slobbering to the ground in an agony of contrition?"

Young Germans, by and large, accept that they have inherited an
intolerably heavy burden from the past two generations. The learn about
it, discuss it, and try to make efforts to prevent such a debacle ever
repeating itself. In that respect many are what I would call model
world citizens: they've seen hell close up, and can help others avoid
it. It is not insignificant that the first large post-war employment of
German troops in a military conflict was the NATO campaign gainst
Serbia, the purpose of which was to put a stop to mass murdfer and
ethnic cleansing.


> As regards the events of World War II, you obviously buy the official line
> about
> "all Europe writhing under the Nazi tyranny."

No, not all of Europe, most of Europe. There were oases: Sweden,
Portugal, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Ireland, Iceland, AndorraŠ

> 
> There are many who see the matter very differently. What they see is a Europe
> that
> was fighting for its very existence AS Europe, a Europe crushed between the
> millstones of Anglo-Saxonism on tthe West and Stalinism on the East.

That's you revisionist viewpoint, enh? WW II was Hitler's war all the
way, and his motives were no means as noble as would ascribe to him.
Hitler was waging a war of pillage and colonial conquest, but not
somewhere overseas against "savages", but rather in his own back yard.
All in all, his primary purpose was to conquer 'Lebensraum', land
depopulated of its traditional inhabitants by mass deportations or
exterminations for German inhabitation. You are trying to paint a
picture of Hitler as someone trying to preserve something when, in
actual fact, he was the 2oth centuries greatest nihilist.
 
> Did you know that the following cEuropean ountries were either
> 
> --openly Allied to Germany or
> --sympathetic or helpful in one way or another.
> 
> Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, Rumania, Bulgaria, Croatia, Italy, Spain, Ireland,
> Switzerland, Sweden, Finnland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, White
> Russia

Superficially many of them were. In actual fact some, like Sweden and
Bulgaria were under severe pressure, others, like Finland and Hungary
were in it for opportunistic reasons, still others, like Italy,
Slovakia, and Romania, were in it because of the exuberance of their
fascist dictators Mussolini, Tiso, and Antonescu. Certain circles in
Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, and White Russia were in it
because they mistakenly and tragically thought the the Nazis, who
coveted their lands as prime real estate for Lebensraum, might help
them achieve national independence. The Germans ruled these fave
countries as protectorates, legally incorporating them into the Reich
as a Reichskommissariat and introducing German money, national symbols,
and laws, including the notorious Nuremberg Laws. They did nothing to
advance national aspirations in any of them, and murdered or had
murdered thousands or people in each country.


> --yes and even France, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark and Norway. Fair bit of
> territory, isn't it?

All five of these countries had strong underground resistance movements
that sabotaged the Nazis and showed the true will of the people. And
you forgot Luxembourg.

> 
> Did you know that, by the end of the war, the Waffen SS was between one-third
> to
> one-half non-German, that it was made up of volunteers from just about all of
> the
> countries listed above, both countries allied anh occupied. No one forced
> those men
> to fight on Germany's side, but they did so.

Talk about superficial impressions. The overwhelming majority of these
young men were given the choice of joining the Waffen SS or being
interned in concentration camps. If you were of draft age you joint the
Waffen-SS because it was the only show in town, unless you wanted to
risk going underground or risk a concentration camp. I personally know
people people who were young men in Latvia at the time who were
"recruited" into the Waffen SS at gunpoint off the street. The
notorious Latvian concentration camp at Salaspils was filled with young
Latvian men who refused to answer the call to serve as cannon fodder in
Hitler's armies.

Source: http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm
(Website of the Museum at the site of the former Salaspils
concentration camp, Latvia)


 The purposes of building the Salaspils camp are unclear. Initially, in
1941, according to some statements by Lange, it was a rush-project
built to house the Reich Jews, but as soon as the camp was finished,
about September 1942, it was turned over to quarter Gentiles, mostly
Latvian and slavic political prisoners. During March 1943 there were
1.990 prisoners in Salaspils, but according to some estimates as many
as 6.000 has been squeezed into it. If, during the building stage, the
Salaspils camp was an example of "destruction by labor", then in the
Gentile phase, though it was harsh and many people died or were
executed, it served partly as a labor camp and partly as a transit camp
for people who awaited sentencing, interrogation, or imprisonment in
the Central Prison of Riga. Numerous ostarbeiters from Belorussia, on
their way to Germany, were commonly held in Salaspils. During the last
year of the camp most of the prisoners were Latvian resisters,
draft-dodgers, and  deserters from the Legion. 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:35 EDT 2001
Article: 923666 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:17:07 +0300
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In article <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> € absorbed Austria and reduced it to the status of an exploited province
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Ye Gods, what rubbish. The Austrians were not one of Hitler's victims; they
> were
> his MOST enthusiastic ally, bar none.

In 1938, when annexed by the Reich, most, but by no means all,
Austrians were enthusiastic, there's no denying that. Some people,
however, were quite disturbed by the annexation, being that it was the
result of a process that had involved much thuggery, an attempted coup
in 1934, and even the murder by the Nazis of Chancellor Engelbert
Dollfuss in 1934, and had ended with a silken-handed military invasion
and a plebescite of arguable legality. Austria had been a favored place
of refuge for Jews forced to leave Nazi Germany, both they as well as
those Austrians who had defended them were obviously not enthusiastic
about Anschluss. Austria, renamed Ostmark, was quickly subordinated to
the status of a province within the German economic and political
system. German instruments of terror such as the SS extended to
Austria, and the men selected to head them, Arthur Seyss-Inquart,
Chancellor, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Minister of State and SS head, and
Odilo Globocnik, Gauleiter for Vienna, all distinguished themselves by
the brutality with which they cracked down on Jews, the political
opposition, and the Catholic Church (see:
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0033.html). A
year later, when Germany started WW II by invading Poland, young
Austrian men andf their families realized they were going to be called
upon to participate in Hitler's war of aggression against what wound up
to be almost everybody.

Seven years of Nazi rule resulted in the wholesale destruction of
Austrian cities, the unexpected "opportunity" for many young Austrian
men to serve in the German Wehrmacht as cannon fodder, the arrest,
imprisonment, and murder of tens of thousands of its citizens, and
ultimately in the occupation of the country by the victorious Allies.
The official website maintained by the Austrian Press and Information
Burerau describes this period as following:

Source: http://www.austria.org/history.htm#republ

THE EXTINCTION OF AUSTRIA  

Schuschnigg's Government made one last desperate attempt to maintain
Austria's independence by calling for a plebiscite. The German Reich
responded by setting ultimatums and with the invasion of German troops
on March 12, 1938. By that time, however, a considerable number of
Austrians had become adherents of Nazism. On March 13, 1938 Austria's
Anschluss to the German Reich was completed, and on April 10 of the
same year it was "legalized" by means of a plebiscite. The
Ostmarkgesetz (1939) erased the occupied country as a national entity;
the name of Austria was abolished.  

Shortly afterwards the Second World War broke out, and all able-bodied
male Austrians were called up. Even before that, the Nuremberg Laws had
been extended to Austria, which was a disaster for the Austrian Jews.
Of the 185,250 Jews who lived in Austria in 1938, nearly 70,000 were
killed in concentration camps, almost all the others had to flee for
their lives.  

They were not the only ones: many Austrians who joined the resistance
movement against the Nazi regime ended up in prisons and death camps or
were executed.  



Within post-war Austria itself, there has been a debate as to whether
the country is better characterized as a collaborator in Nazi crimes,
or as the Third Reich's first victim:

Source: http://community.lexisone.com/news/ap/ap_011801h.html

Austria to Settle Holocaust Claims 

by Pauline Jelinek 
Associated Press 

WASHINGTON ‹ Jan. 18, 2001 

Facing up to their World War II collaboration with the Nazis, France
and Austria are planning to pay many millions of dollars to Jews whose
property and money were seized in the Holocaust. 

Austria signed an agreement with the U.S. government Wednesday to pay
$500 million in return for dismissal of survivors' lawsuits over
property seized from Jewish victims. 



''Like all nations, we have to live up to our past, the deeds of all
Austrians bad or good, the fact that Austrians were perpetrators,
onlookers and victims,'' Austrian envoy Ernst Sucharipa said in signing
the agreement at the State Department late Wednesday. 

The top U.S. envoy for Holocaust issues, Stuart Eizenstat, then went
into nighttime talks with French officials to complete work on the
French bank compensation proposal. 

Negotiations with the two countries are part of what Eizenstat has
called an unprecedented effort to re-examine past wrongs and give
victims ''a measure of justice, though belated.'' 

He was rushing to complete the agreements, part of a five-year
campaign, before the Clinton administration leaves office with
Saturday's swearing-in of President-elect George W. Bush. With the
Americans in the lead, the United States and some 20 nations set up
Holocaust commissions to restudy Nazi abuses and recalculate what is
owed aging survivors. 



For Austria's part, postwar governments had insisted Austria itself was
a Nazi victim, even though the overwhelming majority of Austrians
purportedly favored their country's annexation by Germany in 1938. More
recent governments have admitted Austria also played a role in the
persecution and have agreed that previous restitution programs were
insufficient. 

Under a preliminary agreement in October, Austria already pledged to
make an interim payment of $150 million for the seizure of apartments
and businesses and to continue negotiating a full package. Wednesday's
agreement on the full program adds $210 million from business and
government and $20 million from interest for all other property claims
and for insurance polices of victims that went unpaid, Eizenstat said. 

An additional $112 million will pay social benefits such as nursing
care and pensions. Also included are a land swap and $8 million. 

With more than $400 million pledged last year to people who were forced
laborers in Austria, the total promised in the last year by Austria for
its role in Holocaust-era abuses amounts to $900 million, Sucharipa
noted. 

A letter of apology is to go to the victims as well. 

Austria's agreement was not unanimous. Lawyers said several of the
dozen or so parties to the negotiations refused to sign because the
package was too small to accommodate some large claims. Others said the
program would go ahead without them. 

Copyright 2001 Associated Press 


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:35 EDT 2001
Article: 923680 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 18:22:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3b85b0b8.985236330@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:


> 
> Holman tries:
> >1. There is only *one* gas chamber on display at Auschwitz, the one at
> >Krema I in Auschwitz-Stammlager.
> 
> Only "*one*" with little "*"s attached?  Gee.

If we're going to get all pedantic, all cabbalistically concerned with
details, details of details, and details of details of details, then
the *one* has to be emphasized. With little "*"s attached. There is
*one* and only *one* structure at Auschwitz which is displayed as a gas
chamber, you cannot got to Auschwitz today and see gas chambers. You
can see a partial restoration of one, the ruins of another, and the
ruins of the foundations of the buildings which housed three others

> 
> >2. It gas chamber is a partial restoration of a facility that was
> >decommissioned as a gas chamber, converted to an air-raid shelter, and
> >then restored to a condition approximating the state it had when
> >functioning as a gas chamber.
> 
> Holman says it used to be a gas chamber. Gee.

There is the testimony of its use. There are the articles and drawings
contained in _Anatomy of the Auschwitz death Camp_, _. There are
records of its use from Nazi archives. Krema I is covered in deatail
for those in the above book from pp.158-60. There are the forensic
examinations conducted by Leuchter and the IFRC, both of which found
traces of cyanide compounds in its ventilation systems and on its
walls.

Evidence of its use as a gas chamber can be found in:

1. The personal file of prisoner Waclaw Lipka.
2. The transcripts of the trial of Rudolf Hoess.
3. The testimony of Jankowski-Feinsilber.
4. The book called _Amidst a Nightmare of Crime: Notes of Prisoners of
Sonnderkommando Found at Auschwitz_, Oswiecim, 1973.
5. Jan Sehn, _Concentration Camp Oswiecim-Brzeinka_, Warsaw, 1957.
6. Jean-Claude Pressac, _Auschwitz: Technique and
Operation of the Gas Chambers_ , New York, 1989.
6. Plan no. 4287, "Ausbau des Alten Krematorium: Luftshutzbunker fuer
SS-Revier mit einem Operationsraum"
7. D. Czech Testimony: The gassing in Krema I started September 1941.
8. Testimony of R. Hoess: The gassing in Krema I started September 1941.
9. The testimony of former prisoner Badenitz: The gassing in Krema I
started September 1941.
10. Openings made by prisoner Sulkowski who testified further that
after the gassing unit was made into an air-raid shelter the openings
were closed up.
11. _Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers_, New York,
1979.
12. Prisoner Michal Kula who was employed in installing the ventilator.
>From the trial of Hoess.
13. Note 18 presented in almost in full: "Former prisoner Koczorowski,
who had access to the plans of crematorium I, testified that the gas
chamber was designed as a mortuary ('Leichenhalle') for 600 persons;
According to Filip Mueller, over 700 persons could be accomodated
inside. Hoess spoke about 900 Soviet POWs crammed inside, whereas
former prisoner Halgas stated that groups of 1000 people were gassed
there.
14. Van Pelt's expert witness testimony at the David Irving vs. Deborah
Lisptadt/Penguin Books in which he makes reference to architectural
diagrams in a forgotten archive which contain the details concerning
the conversion from a mortuary to a gas chamber.
15. Between 1945 and 1962 Polish officials found five manuscripts
written by Sonderkommando members befor etheir deaths. The published
manuscripts and documents relate to the specific process of
extermination at Birkenau, and provide detailed descriptions of the
crematoria and gas chambers


> 
> >3. Gassings did indeed take place precisely in those premises.
> 
> Holman says gassings "indeed" took place. Gee.

Besides the fact the former prisoners and administrators say that this
is the case, tell-tale traces of cyanide compounds were found in its
structures:

Spurce:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/


JAN MARKIEWICZ, WOJCIECH GUBALA, JERZY LABEDZ 
Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow 
Z Zagadnien Sqdowych, z. XXX, 1994, 17-27 
Received 8 March 1994; accepted 30 May 1994 

The study was performed and funded by the Committee for 
Scientific Research under the scheme of Research Project 
No 2 P 30 3088 04. Leader of the Project Prof. Jan Markiewicz. 





TABLE III. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN
           FROM THE CREMATORIUM CHAMBERS (OR THEIR RUINS)
      IN WHICH THE VICTIMS WERE GASSED.

A - Sample No;
B - Concentration of CN~ (ug/kg).

Crematorium I
------------------------------------------------------------
A  17 17 18 19 20 21 22
------------------------------------------------------------
B  28 76 0  0  288   0  80
   28 80 0  0  292   0  80
   26 80 0  0  288   0  80
------------------------------------------------------------


Notes: 

Crematorium I at Auschwitz - building preserved but
reconstructed several times 



> 
> >4. Owing to the sensitive nature of the subject, there is no more
> >reason to distract attention form what is shrine for the millions of
> >people who lost relatives at Auschwitz with cards, arrows, and labels
> >giving superfluous information about the restoration work than there is
> >to clutter up a dinosaur skeleton on display at a natural history
> >museum with information about which bones are plaster of Paris
> >reconstructions.
> 
> Holman says there is no need to have the visitor know there was a
> reconstruction. He says because "of the sensitive nature". Gee.

If I go to visit the Cathedral in Cologne, Germany
(http://www.koelner-dom.de/), as a tourist, I am not particularly
interested in the fact that the building was severely damaged during
the war and is thus a partial restoration. If I am a student of
architecture, I can investigate the matter further by purchasing a book
devoted to the restauration of the cathedral, or I can do my own
research by accessing various archives. The purpose of visiting such a
place for the average tourist is the total experience, not nitpicking
and pointing out that most of the structure dates back to the Middle
Ages, but some of them are of post-war origin. The Cathedral in Cologne
is a restoration in precisely the same manner as the gas chamber at
Krema I is.
 
> >5. Standard books about Auschwitz contain this information for those
> >who want or need to know it.
> 
> Holman says "standard" books about the Holocaust will tell us that the
> alleged gas chamber is a reconstruction. Should we note that Holman
> doesn't give any examples?  Is there any reason one should believe
> Holmans declaration? Gee.

1. Jan Sehn, _Concentration Camp Oswiecim-Brzeinka_, Warsaw, 1957, pg.
152: "In May 1944 the old Crematorium I in the base camp was adapted
for use as an air raid shelter".
2. Jean-Claude Pressac, _Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas
Chambers_, New York, 1989: pg. 157: "With part of the building
converted to an air raid shelter, this is the state in which the SS
abandoned Krematorium I in January 1945."
3. Source: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/holocaust/auschwitz/part01/

McVay, Kenneth N.  (1998) "HOLOCAUST FAQ: Auschwitz-Birkenau: Layman's
Guide"



> 
> >6. There is no law against stating publicly in Germany or elsewhere
> >that the gas chamber is a partial restoration or a museumification.
> >Stating that it is "not genuine", implying that it is a deliberate
> >deception is something else. The gas chamber of Krema I was restored
> >for justifiable historical reasons. The present partial restoration is
> >located in the place where some of the gassings of Jews and Soviet POWs
> >did, indeed, take place.
> 
> Holman says it's not against the law in Germany to say the structure
> is a restoration unless you say it's a deliberate deception.  Gee.
> Holman says again "indeed" the place was a gas chamber. Gee. 
> 
> >Even the most avid revisionist with any sense of historical fact will
> >admit that thousands of people were gassed within the premises housing
> >the partially restored Krema I gas chamber.
> 
> Holman says "Even the most avid revisionist" would admit the structure
> was a gas chamber. Then why would a revisionist believe it was a gas
> chamber and not the rest of the alleged sites? Gee. There is no
> credible evidence, "historical fact", that the structure was a gas
> chamber.  Why would revisionists accept the "historical fact" for the
> structure and not the others? Holman?  

Because there is no other reasonable way to explain away the facts
that: 
1. the testimony obtained from various people who were there as
administrators or workers is consistent with other evidence that Krema
I was a gas chamber;
2. the camp records and architectural diagrams are consistent with
other evidence that Krema I was a gas chamber;
3. the forensic examination of both Leuchter and the Cracow groups
found traces of cyanide compounds on the walls and in the ventialtion
systems is consistent with other evidence that Krema I was a gas
chamber.

If Krema I was not a gas chamber, how does one account for the massive
torrent of evidence indicating that it was?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:35 EDT 2001
Article: 923691 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!teleglobe.net!213.24.141.54.MISMATCH!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:26:22 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3b911b75.1078110980@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Holman trying one of his techniques of submitting a URL that says
> nothing:
> 
> >http://www.phymac.med.wayne.edu/FacultyProfile/penney/COHQ/coDiesel01.ht
> >m
>
> Holman is one corrupt idiot. 

Moran tries to score points by exhibiting his impaired reading
comprehension skills. The sites I referred to state the following:

1.
http://www.phymac.med.wayne.edu/FacultyProfile/penney/COHQ/coDiesel01.ht
m


Carbon Monoxide Poisoning


Diesel Exhaust Gases:

Factors tending to increase CO:

*  Abrupt change in power setting / load changes 
*  Less than ideal injection timing, fuel aerosolization, distribution,
and combustion chamber shape 
*  Low combustion temperature 
*  Low operating rpm 
*  Large, heavy-duty size as compared to light-duty engines 
*  Engine not properly maintained 
*  Blocked air intake


Concentrations of 1,000 - 5,000 ppm CO in undiluted diesel exhaust
gases are common, and levels up to 60,000 ppm or higher, are possible.


I reitierate the juicy part:


Concentrations of 1,000 - 5,000 ppm CO in undiluted diesel exhaust
gases are common, and levels up to 60,000 ppm or higher, are possible.






***********************************************
Source: http://www.boatwashington.org/carbon_monoxide.htm

Information provided by
Washington State Parks &
Boat/US  


------------------------------------------------------------------------

YOUR INSPECTION GUIDE


Is your boat emitting toxic levels of CO?
Does Your boat trap hazardous CO levels?

Follow this step-by-step guide as you perform a safety inspection of
your boat's propulsion system and its aerodynamics. By identifying
potential trouble spots in your boat's mechanical systems and cabin
configuration, and correcting potential problems before they occur, you
can enjoy many hours of safe boating.
Periodic inspections of mechanical systems and total operating systems
will maintain your boat's value as well as it's safety.
If you detect potential problems, consider hiring a mechanic or marine
surveyor for an evaluation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

CARBON MONOXIDE FACTS 

*  Carbon Monoxide is a colorless, odorless, tasteless gas.   It is
produced when a carbon-based fuel such as gasoline, wood, coal, or
charcoal is burned.
*  Carbon monoxide freely disperses through the air, and will readily
travel throughout a boat.
*  The most common source of carbon monoxide is exhaust from gasoline
or diesel engines. Cooking ranges, heaters, and charcoal grills also
produce carbon monoxide.

********************************************************************

I reiterate the juicy part:

Source: ibid

*  The most common source of carbon monoxide is exhaust from gasoline
or diesel engines. Cooking ranges, heaters, and charcoal grills also
produce carbon monoxide.


Better luck next time with your moronic tomfoolery.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:35 EDT 2001
Article: 923692 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster   won't put unless I create it.)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 19:33:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <100720011933324750%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3b942462.1080396380@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Richard G. Phillips:
> 
> >Do i regard him as both intelligent and articulate? Yes, certainly. Do I
> >regard him as having a truly outstanding mind? No.
> 
> Personally I think Holman is an utter fool. He has an extensive
> history that increases with every week of posting URLs that he would
> have the reader believe holds something that supports his position or
> discredits his opponents position when they don't. Right here in this
> thread he does it, submits a URL that says nothing to support his
> position or discredit revisionism and also this day another URL in his
> post -
> 
> From: Eugene Holman 
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
> Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:00:11 +0300
> Organization: University of Helsinki
> Message-ID: <100720011100112239%holman@elo.helsinki.fi 
> 
> 
> Evidently Holman thinks he has incredible powers of suggestion or he
> is like a interrogator in Orwell's '1984' where they hold up two
> fingers and get the hero Winston Smith to say he see's three.
> 
> Holman is an utter idiot.


I refuted this slander in a recent posting. You blame mne for your lack
of reading comprehension skills.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:36 EDT 2001
Article: 923698 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 18:45:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 48
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In article <3B49B399.D7DDD07@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Yes and what sort of acknowledgement have they gotten in return? THe
> denunciations keep going on and on and on, thanks largely to persons like
> yourself and that Johann Sebastian Whatever who, without being provoked in any
> way, regularly posts this denunciation and that denunciation. Do you imaginue
> that Germans don't SEE these things. Practically all of them read English.
> 
> No, they don't yearn for another Hitler, but they feel it's high time that
> talk
> of this sort ceased.
> 
> ===================================================

Sorry, Richard. These issues are constantly discussed in the quality
German press: Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, and the better newspapers. Any
German bookstore has a section devoted to Holocaust literature, and
every German school child has done several Holocaust-related projects
at school. There is nothing provocative or denunciatory when you are
coming to terms with the history of your own country.

Here is a website in Germany dealing with the treatment of the
Holocaust and the wider issue of WW II in German schools:
http://www.holocaust-education.de/

Here is the link to a website for German secndary school students doing
their own Holocaust-realted research:
http://www.fritz-bauer-institut.de/links/holocaust.htm

The Holocaust is of particular interest to German schoolchildren
because, unfortunately, more than 1,000,000 of its victims were
children. The fate of Anne Frank is known to virtually every German
child. They find it easy to indentify with her because she was born a
German Jew whose family followed the early advice of the Nazis and
emigrated, but nevertheless still eventually fell a victim to the
Holocaust, first having to hide in an attic for more than two years,
then being arrested, sent to three concentration camps, then seeing her
mother die, and then dying herself, all before even reaching the age of
16.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:36 EDT 2001
Article: 923699 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 18:52:01 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <090720011852018368%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B49B399.D7DDD07@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B4921B3.38837C51@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > ====================================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > Well let's just say I have reason to doubt that their attitudes are
> > > everything that
> > > the Jews feel those attitudes ought to be. Maybe they feel there should be
> > > some sort
> > > of limit on how long they are supposed to walk the earth with their heads
> > > hung in
> > > shame.
> > >
> > > ============================================
> > >
> >
> > Today's generation of Germans does not walk with their heads hung in
> > shame.
> >
> > They are quite proud of having done what is doable with respect to
> > apologizing and making amends for the trashing of an entire continent
> > and the systematic genocide committed in the name of Germany by their
> > parents and grandparents.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
>
> No, they don't yearn for another Hitler, but they feel it's high time that
> talk
> of this sort ceased.
> 
> ===================================================
> 

You ought to look at some of the German groups de.sci.geschichte where
these issues are brought up.

The recent Neo-Nazi episodes, primarily in former East Germany, where
the Holocaust and Nazi era have only recently been discussed in a
critical manner, show that a lot of work remains to be done.

The Holocaust will remain a topic for Germans to grapple with for many
decades to come, just as Americans are still grappling with the Civil
War and, now, Pearl Harbor.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:36 EDT 2001
Article: 923747 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:02:50 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <110720010702509397%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B4B6D9B.9A70894@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Orac wrote:

> > The answer why is very simple. Hitler wanted to destroy these cities because
> > they were named after Lenin and Stalin. He was especially keen to destroy
> > Leningrad, because Lenin was the founder of the Soviet state. In his view,
> > their
> > destruction would symbolize the utter destruction of Bolshevism by National
> > Socialism and demoralize the Soviets.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Odd. The Russkies have always looked upon St Petersburg/Leningrad/St.
> Petersburg as
> a "German" city.
> 
> ================================================

Hitler didn't. And his armies did a pretty good job of trashing
Leningrad. There's still a sign on Nevsky Prospekt, the main drag, that
says "During bombing this side of the street is safer".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:37 EDT 2001
Article: 923760 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:15:29 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <110720010715295095%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B4B8580.7C7CB215@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> >
> > > If you were of draft age you joint the
> > > Waffen-SS because it was the only show in town, unless you wanted to
> > > risk going underground or risk a concentration camp. I personally know
> > > people people who were young men in Latvia at the time who were
> > > "recruited" into the Waffen SS at gunpoint off the street.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> I told you once before to tell me things I am going to believe. I can believe
> the use
> of press-gang methods to collar young men for --say-- labour battalions
> (which the
> Germans needed as much as they needed combat soldiers) As for fillling the
> ranks of the
> Waffen SS that way -- forget it. Seriously disaffected soldiers are poison to
> morale
> and any unit commander with his head screwed on would a hundred times rather
> do without
> than have such men in his outfit.
> 
> You tell me that you "personally know" of men who were thusly "recruited"
> into the
> Waffen SS. Eugene: has another possibility occurred to you, like the
> possibility that
> maybe you were "had." This is highly conjectural but it is very posible that
> these men,
> wanting to establish a good rapport with you, bent the truth a little to make
> out a
> case that they had been anti-Nazi all the time.
> 
> ==========================================
> 

Since one of them is the father-in-law of my business associate, I
don't think there would be any reason for him to want to establish any
particular kind of rapport. He spent about three weeks in the Waffen SS
duirng the summer of 1944 until he was captured by the Soviet Army. He
eventually wound up with a 10 year sentence at Siberian labor camp for
treason, all at the age of 19.

The fact of the matter is that most young men in Latvia at the time
were as anti-Nazi as they were anti-Soviet: all they wanted was to get
their country back. Young men were recruited into both armies at
gunpoint. My acquiantances brother was recruited, also at gunpoint,
into the Red Army, so they wound up fighting on opposite sides, nor was
this situation rare in the Baltics in 1944. His brother managed to go
into hiding, get rid of his Soviet uniform, withdraw with the Gerans,
and make it to a displaced persons' camp in Germany, from which he
eventually made it to San Francisco, where he now lives.

Most Balts regarded the Soviets as well as the Nazis as occupants, both
of which powers incorporated the Baltic countries into their respective
empires and used their men for cannon fodder.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:38 EDT 2001
Article: 923796 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:36:58 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <110720010736582780%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B4B1240.10D47F88@earthlink.net> <20010710214328.05264.00002439@ng-mb1.aol.com>
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In article <20010710214328.05264.00002439@ng-mb1.aol.com>, Philip
Mathews  wrote:

> In >Message-id: <3B4B1240.10D47F88@earthlink.net>
> 
> >"Richard G. Phillips" rgp777@earthlink.net wrote:
> 
> >Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> >> Hey, that's your department. You are impressed by Nazi Germany's
> >> "solution" of the unemployment problem, even though this was largely
> >> achieved by hiring many people in non-productive sectors such as
> >> concentration camp guards, neighborhood spies, and swastika stitchers.
> >
> >============================================
> >Phillips
> >
> >THere was nothing in the least superficial about that Nazi accomplishment
> >which, by
> >the way, no other industrialized nation managed to duplicate. And, no, it was
> >not
> >achieved by make-work schemes' although there was a certain amount of that.
> >There
> >was a general revival of German industry based on a revival of confidence and
> >their
> >ability to work as a team, their putting aside the plague of class struggle.
> >
> 
> What rubbish!
> 
> I post the following, a review of Ian Kershaw's biography of Hilter,
> particularly a discussion of Nazi economics, not because there is any hope you
> will ever rise above your blind beliefs of National Socialism, but because I
> think Eugene will find it interesting.
> 
> I apologize for the length.
> 
> (quote)
> 
> Nazi Economics
> 
> By Michael McMenamin
> 
> 
> Reason Magazine, August/September 1999



Thank you very much, Philip. Although the article says it much more
clearly than I ever could, it contains essentially the same arguments
about both Nazi Germany and the USSR as I have been trying, at no
avail, to make Richard understand. I've read enough about the economic
history of Nazi Germany and spent enough time in the USSR to know that
their continued defiance of the rules of economics made both into
basket cases.

Nazi Germany did not solve the problem of unemployment, it only lowered
the figures, mainly by excluding certain groups of people from the
economy and establishing an inordinate number of "make-work" jobs in
their party bureaucracy, the armaments industry, and the ever expanding
concentration camp system. Its policies did not put more food on the
table of the average German, although its propaganda made that seem to
be the case. Much the same holds true, mutatis mutandis, for the USSR.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:38 EDT 2001
Article: 923797 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:43:19 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <110720010743195698%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3B45F76D.69C1DF07@home.com> <73fedc95.0107061932.75537fc5@posting.google.com> <3B47D252.CCB5C005@home.com> <73fedc95.0107080942.1b20f3f4@posting.google.com> <4d338ce1.0107082023.241ce9eb@posting.google.com> <73fedc95.0107091707.5d06ac7c@posting.google.com> <100720011100112239%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <73fedc95.0107100905.483a49f4@posting.google.com> <3b994268.1088083980@news.pacificnet.net> <73fedc95.0107101816.75fece40@posting.google.com>
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In article <73fedc95.0107101816.75fece40@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

> The URL location in Mr. Holman's post was split into two lines.  You
> will have to add the "m" to the end to get to the website. Here it is
> hopefully in one line:
>  
> http://www.phymac.med.wayne.edu/FacultyProfile/penney/COHQ/coDiesel01.htm

Thank you for clarifying this.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:39 EDT 2001
Article: 923826 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 07:53:54 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B4BBB9A.CE9217A1@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wanted to trash Leningrad because it was named after Lenin. I guess he WAS
> dingle-dong.
> 
> ==============================

Yes, finally you are beginning to see the light.

If a relatively small country like Germany sneak-attacks a giant like
the USSR, at mid-summer to boot and with no preparations for winter
warfare, there's no chance in hell that it can prevail if it does not
go for the center of power and put everything it has into attacking and
occupying Moscow. 

That's what Hitler's generals told him. Hitler, however, insisted on
micromanaging the do-or-die campaign, and he decided on a militarily
insane but semiotically brilliant diluted, three-pronged attack, with
his armies going for Moscow, because it was the capital, and for
Leningrad and Stalingrad as a way of militarily full-mooning the
Soviets by taking out the cities named after their two greatest
leaders. As it happened, diluting the attack resulted in the Soviets
being able to repulse all three prongs. That, in a nutshell, is why
Germany lost the Soviet campaign.

"Whistle while you work,
Hitler was a jerk."


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:39 EDT 2001
Article: 923841 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!isdnet!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 22:20:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B49E1DC.B9288D39@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> > > ===================================================
> >
> > Sorry, Richard. These issues are constantly discussed in the quality
> > German press: Der Spiegel, Die Zeit, and the better newspapers. Any
> > German bookstore has a section devoted to Holocaust literature, and
> > every German school child has done several Holocaust-related projects
> > at school. There is nothing provocative or denunciatory when you are
> > coming to terms with the history of your own country.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> There is no doubt that the brain-washing job has been a thorough one.
> 
> You speak of their "coming-to-terms" with their history. What this means of
> course
> is hanging their heads in shame. The Jews love to make people feel guilty; it
> makes
> them so much easier to manipulate.
> 
> ==============================================

It's not a brain-washing job, as anyone with the elast acquaintance
with contemporary Grman history can tell you. You prefer to deal in the
superficial and the one-liner, so you dismiss the findings of
researchers with better staying power than you have.

"Coming-to-terms" with 20th century German history most certainly does
not mean hanging heads in shame, nor are the initiatives to do so of
Jerwish origin. Nazi Germany trashed an entire continent. Even if it
had not killed a single Jew, what it did to its neighboring countries
in its orgy of Blitzkrieg, occupation, and ethnic cleansing was
reprehensible and inexcusable. 

Do you deny that Nazi Germany:
€ dismembered Czechoslovakia
€ subjected more than 100,000 of its citizens to euthanasia
€ interned hundrdd of thousands political dissidents in concentration
camps
€ absorbed Austria and reduced it to the status of an exploited province
€ attacked and dismembered Poland
€ attacked and occupied the Netherlands
€ attacked and occupied Belgium
€ attacked and occupied Luxembourg
€ attacked and dismembered France
€ attacked and occupied Denmark
€ attacked and occupied Norway
€ attacked and occupied part of the USSR, with plans to reduce
Leningrad to a pile of rubble and maintaining a siege that lasted 900
days - almost three years - and claimed an estimated 800,000 victims
€ attacked and occupied Denmark
€ declared war on the USA and its allies
€ firebombed and missle-attacked British cities
€ attacked and occupied Hungary
€ withdrew from Finland, destroying everything in its tracks with a
scorched earth policy,
€ attacked and occupied Greece
€ attacked and occupied Romania
€ attacked and occupied Serbia

This far from complete list ignores the Jewish issue and picks out well
documented events which need neither Jews nor brainwashing to point out
that they were reprehensible.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:39 EDT 2001
Article: 923842 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
Supersedes: <090720012140447212%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 22:30:10 +0300
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In article <3B49DEAA.9FA86DF7@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> tom moran wrote:
> 
> > Holoman has returned with some 300 lines of Holocaust narration as if
> > that answers or proves anything. That would be like someone arguing
> > for the 'facts' of the Bible say and when something is questioned the
> > person cites another part of the Bible to prove it.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> There is no question that Eugene does have a penchant for the verbose. He
> will often post a full-page or multi-page expostulation because he knows
> it is much more difficult to reply to than a short, concise paragraph.

No, Richard. Serious historical argumentation cannot be conducted using
one-liners and sound bites. Issues such as the relative lethalness of
Zyklon-B for warm as opposed to cold-blooded creatures cannot be
resolved by quipping, Fred Leuchter fashion, "Well, I've never run
tests on beetles". 

Mr. Moran had chided me in a previous posting for making statements,
but not backing them up. Now, when I back them up, I a excoriated for
being too thorough. Life is difficult, and then you die.


> ========================================
> Phillips
> There is no doubt that he has done a vast amount of researching into the
> sort of materials that confirm his preconceptions. Just how much --if
> any-- researching he has done into materials that DENY them, I am not
> prepared to say.
> 
> =============================================

I *am* prepared to say.

With respect to the Auschwitz gas chamber I have:
1. Visited the place
2. Read standard, mainstream Holocaust historical works devoted to it.
3. Made a detailed reading of the Leuchter report.
4. Done reading in chemistry and toxology to enable me to understand
the Leuchter Report.
5. Read other forensic reports concerning Auschwitz, including expert
criticism of the Leuchter Report.

I have no reason whatsoever to take the Leuchter Report as anything but
a piece of scientific garbage. Similarly, the so-called "revolutionary
interview" by David Cole with Franciszek Piper of the Auschwitz State
Museum, supposedly representing "the other side", was a piece of
tendentious garbage that even a ten-year-old could see though. The junk
published in the Journal for Historical Review does not come up to the
standards of historical scholarship. A favorite denier gambit, "there
couldn't have been 6,000,000 Jewish victims of the Holocaust because
there weren't 6,000,000 Jews in Germany to begin with", is an insult to
anyone who has taken European History 101.

So, yes, I do try to acquaint myself with an issue from more than one
perspective. Holocaust denial impresses me as nothing more than
tomfoolery, intended for people who are too ignorant or intellectually
lazy to acquaint themselves with either the facts or the methodology of
historical research.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:39 EDT 2001
Article: 923928 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:06:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B4B1240.10D47F88@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 

> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> THe first figure, yes; but hardly the last one. The operative word here is
> "gross."
> Because income distribution is so skewed (more so in our own country than in
> any
> other) it just does not tell us hom ordinayr people are doing.
> 
> Such figures would tell us that, generally, American people are better off
> than
> Mexican people. They do NOT tell us how American people are doing on the
> basis of
> AMERICAN expectations.
> 
> =========================================

Ahhhhhhhhh. You are thinking in terms of ideals rather than realities.
Why didn't you say so. As wages go up, so do prices. That's the nature
of a market economy. My parents paid $15,000 for a house in 1956, and
they could sell it for $120,000 now. The house has no "inherent value",
but rather its market price depends on various factors. Of course
people always want more. Americans - taken all together, not just Mr.
Joe Average - live better than ever before and arguable better than any
other nation in the world. If you disagree with the latter statement,
cite me one nation that lives better, and tell me how and why.



> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Ho, are you now telling me that the American people are healthy as well as
> rich.
> THAT is about as superficial as one can possibly get.
> 
> =====================

The last time I visited the US (Dec. 1999) I noted that many of the
people you see on the street are obese and obviously have poor eating
habits. Unfortunately, the American style of eating - greasy food, lots
of sugar - has mcdonalized much of the industrialized world, so the
nutritional problems you see in the US are reflected elsewhere as a
result of local efforrts to emulate American lifestyles, which many
people in the world consider to be the cat's meow.

My own feeling is that people in countries such as Finland and Canada
that have a national health service i= compulsory national health and
dental insurance) tend to be somewhat healthier than in the United
States, all told. On the other hand, people in such countries flock to
the United States, if they can afford it, for specialist treatment
unavailable elsewhere or to jump lines for non-life-threatening medical
intervention.

So healthcare is probably at the world's highest standard in the US,
but it is not available to everyone. In other countries it is at a
somewhat lower standard, but more universally available. Which is
better? You tell me.


> > > ============================================
> >
> > This is utter crap and you know it. I've done a lot more traveling than
> > you have, I've lived and worked in a wider and more diversified range
> > of countries than you have, and I know how to see past Potemkin
> > villages.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> All of that may be true. I can only judge on the basis what what you have
> written.
> And what I see is a strong bias toward that which you prefer to believe
> rather than
> that which is so. A good case of that is your assessment of the condition of
> black
> Americans today. You seem to have latched on to a few numbers which serve to
> support
> your belief that their condition is far better than in fact it is.

A few numbers that indicate that two thirds of black Americans are in
the middle class, that their children are finishing high school and
going on to college, that they have jobs that require intellectual and
social skills rather than the strong backs and weak minds of
yesteryear. Yes, there are problems, yes, some 15 to 20% live in
poverty, compared to about 10% for the rest of the country, but the
situation has improved dramatically since the early 1960s. There's no
denying that.


> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
 Have you
> ever
> read one of THE outstanding authorities on this matter: Wiliam Junius Wilson?
> I
> would also refer you to the book LOSING THE RACE - SELF SABOTAGE IN BLACK
> AMERICA by
> the black person John McWhorter.

No I haven't. I'll make it my point to do so. Thanks for the tip.

> 
> WHY do you cling to notions which black men who have looked far more deeply
> into the
> matter do not share: because doing so is necessary to support your belief
> that black
> people are every bit as competent as whites, are just as well equipped to
> make their
> way in today's world.
> 
> ===========================================

The past two generations as shown that this is very much the case. One
of the reason Mr. Plain Vanilla White has a more difficult time finding
a good job is that he is competing with Ms. Plain Vanilla White, as
well as with Mr. and Ms. Chocolate. Middle and upper-level management
are no longer bastions of white male privilege. My first cousin, a
black female, broke through two glass ceilings when she became a member
of the Board of Directors of the Federal Reserve Bank a few years ago.
This would have been impossible, no matter how competent she was, fifty
years ago. Nor should we forget Dr. Rice and Gen. Colin Powell in the
Bush administration, also pioneers. Their example not only supports but
proves my contention, not belief, that black people can be every bit as
competent as whites, and are just as well equipped to make their way in
today's world. Granted, only a small subset of black people has what it
takes to achive such a position, but the same holds true for whites.
The important factor is that being black or being a woman does not
preclude one from having such competence, as was once thought and
argued.

Remember, I am neither pro-black or pro-woman, I am pro-competence. If
an albino Chinese hermaphrodite thalidomide invalid demonstrates itself
to be best for a position, I say "Yeeees!".


> 
> > You are the one who is impressed by superficialities:
> > € Fred Leuchter's scientifically illiterate sham of a forensic analysis;
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> "Fred A. Leuchter, Jr., has been widely acknowledged as America's
> leading specialist on the design and fabrication of homicidal
> gas chambers and other equipment used in execution of convicted
> criminals. His expertise has been acknowledged by state governments
> and in periodicals such as The Atlantic (Feb. 1990), The New York
> Times (Oct. 13, 1990) and The New York Times Book Review (Nov. 22,
> 1992), as well as on the "Phil Donahue Show," where he appeared as
> a guest. After receiving his Bachelor's degree from Boston University
> in 1964, 

...in history

> he did postgraduate work at the Harvard Smithsonian
> Astrophysical Observatory.

...but never took a degree

> Leuchter holds patents for numerous highly
> sophisticated technical devices, including sextants, surveying
> instruments and optical encoding equipment."
> 
> Fred Leuchter may not have had all of the qualifications you people, after the
> fact,  think he SHOULD have had. Unfortunately for you, his numbers still
> stand and
> nothing you have said has shaken them.
> 
> I have said many times: If you people don't like the results Leuchter brought
> back,
> there is nothing preventing you from sending in your own team and getting
> results
> more to your liking.

As I have said many times, Leuchter's numbers are consistent with other
evidence indicating that the places he examined were used as homicidal
gas chambers. The only problem is that the numbers were obtained using
analytical methods that, under closer scrutiny, are scientifically
invalid; they do not pass muster. Leuchter's numbers are kind of like
Columbus claiming that by having sailed to "India" he proved that the
earth is round. If presented in court, they would be shot down because
of the egregious methodological and procedural errors.

> 
> =========================================================
> 
> >
> > € Nazi Germany's "solution" of the unemployment problem by kicking
> > efficient people out of the economy and replacing them with less
> > efficient people;
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Your very use of the word "efficiency" in this context informs me that not
> only do
> you not have a solution for the problem as it was at that time, but you don't
> even
> know what the problem WAS.

Case study: Germany kicked out some of its best minds, including
physicists. These went on to work on the atomic bomb. Germany also
tried to build an atomic bomb, but the second-rate physicists working
on the project never got the job done. That's a perfect example of
replacing efficiency with inefficiency. 

> 
> Efficiency?
> 
> Efficiency is all about getting rid of people, of EXCLUDING them from the
> production
> process. Naziism's object was not to exclude people but to INCLUDE them.
> 
> If efficiency is your ideal then a fully free market system is what you want
> because
> it IS marvelously "efficient." There is nothing like it for excluding people
> from
> participation in the economy.
> 

WEe've been throught this. Visitors to Nazi Germany were amused by the
degree to which agriculture used horses, wagons, and peasont girls to
do jobs that were being done elsewhere with combines and tractors. The
Nazi way emplyes more people and keeps agricultural prices higher.



> =====================================================
> 
> >
> > € the nonsensical arguments of proven liars such as David Irving
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> David Irving a liar? Anytime you, or anyone else, wishes, David Irving will
> be more
> than happy to submit his own veracity to public comparison with that of
> Deborad
> Lipstadt. You will say that precisely this happened at the London trial. 

You stole the words right from my mouth.

> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Not
> quite.
> Ms. Lipstadt had the privilege of declining to be put on the stand. She was
> wise to
> exercise that privilege; no one relishes the thought of being publicly cut to
> ribbons.

She know her stuff. Irving doesn't. Note that on the basis of the
material Prof. Lipstadt presented, Irving was forced to back down and
admit, among other things, that the Nazis did gas Jews, and that some
of these gassings took place at Auschwitz. He was also forced to back
down from his absurd position that the Holocaust took place, but Hitler
knew nothing about it. That's a pretty good record for not having
uttered a word.

Irving is not an academician, but a sensationalist. Prof. Lipstadt,
with a much more solid graps of the facts, would have torn Irving to
ribbons. Prof. Lipstadt didn't budge an inch. Irving went in a modified
Holocaust denier, but was forced to concede that he was wrong on so
many points that he is just another Holocaustnik.


> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> No, Ms Lipstadt wisely chose to hide behind her multi-million dollar legal
> staff
> paid for by one or more well-heeled Jewish organizations. Irving did not have
> that
> advantage.
> 
> ===================================

Šbecause no organization with any sense of the value of money would
invest in a person with such a weak position.


> 
> > about
> > the relative lethality of cyanide for lice as opposed to humans;
> > € the philological imbecilities of linguistic amateurs such as the same
> > David Irving who would have us believe that *ausrotten/Ausrottung* when
> > used by the Nazis does not mean what it has meant in German since the
> > 1600s;
> > € the absurd pronouncements of Robert Faurisson that one must assume
> > that a homicidal mass-execution gas chamber, intended to melt into its
> > environment, look harmless, and be undectable, must necessarily be a
> > technical device with all the unnecessary bells, whistles, ocean-proof
> > glass, sealing, and electronics found in its American counterpart,
> > which is intended to symbolize to the victim and the winesses that the
> > supreme punishment is being implemented;
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Bells and whistles? I take it as a given that the purpose of your (alleged)
> gas
> chambers was to execute the intended victims and not the operating personnel.
> According to Missouri Warden Bill Armentrout, the most elaborate precautions
> are
> necessary to assure this. Are you prepared to pit your own "exprtise" against
> his?
> 
> ===========================================================

Yes, I am. 

Mr. Armentrout is talking about an American execution gas chamber,
which kills people using luxuriously redundant HCN concentrations as
high as 8,000 ppm. He ismperfectly correct that a facility using such
high concentrations has to be properly sealed and fitted with various
backup devies to ensure that the operating personnel are not
endangered.

There is no reason that a gas chamber has to use such high
concentrations, since a concentration of HCN as low as 150 ppm, approx.
1/50 of the American concentration, can kill people within 30 minutes.
Doubling it to 300 ppm will kill them within 5 to 10 minutes.  There is
no reason whatsoever to use these high American concentration other
than to kill as quickly and "humanely" as possible. Neither speed nor
humaneness were issues for the Nazis. On the other hand, making the gas
chambers as imperceptable as possible was. If you are using
concentrations of HCN close to the lethal minimum to keill people, you
don't need an elaborate gas chamber with superfluous bells and
whistles. A normal tiled shower room, with a gas proof door and a
powerful ventilation system capable of inducting and expelling air
rapidly enough to ensure a dozen changes of atmosphere within a half
hour is quite sufficient to do the job. 

Leuchter's report begins with the absurd preface by Robert Faurisson
that one must assume that the Nazi gas chambers bore a resemblance to
American gas chambers. There is no justification whatsoever for such an
assumption. A gas chamber is any facility into which people can be
forced to stay long enough for them to be killed by outside
manipulation of the ambient air. The absolute minimalist gas chamber
would not use poison gas at all. If you could pack people into an
airtight room and keep them there for 30 minutes, they would all be
dead even if no lethal agent were used at all.


> > € quibbling about the different units of measurement used by Leuchter
> > as opposed to the IFRC
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> I see. If i am so pestiferous as to point out that a microgramme is only
> one-thousandth as large as a milligramme and that, in consequence, quoting
> concentrations in ug/kg wil give you numbers one thousand times greater than
> quating
> them in mg/kg --this is a "quibble."
> 
> ==================================

It's a quibble ndeed. Different methods and detection limits were used.
The important point is that cyanide compounds resulting from the
exposure to the places concerned to cyandie gas more than 40 years
before the tests were run were detected.


> 
> > in their analysis of cyanide compunds found at
> > the Auschwitz gas chambers rather than drawing the necessary and
> > obvious conclusions from the implications of the fact that such
> > compunds were found at all after a period of nearly half a century;
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I'll say it again. There is nothing preventing you people from sending in you
> own
> team and getting rusults more to your liking.
> 
> ===========================

And I'll say it again. We have nothing against the Leuchter numbers
except the fact that they were produced b a scientifically unaaceptable
method, something which in logic is called abduction. The IFRC report,
using a much more appropriate methodology, comes to essentially the
same conclusions. Our side is irritated by such aburd statements as
irving's "it takes colossally higher concenttration of HCN to kill
people than it does to kill lice". This is pandering to the ignorance
of the general public and is an out-and-out lie.


> 
> >
> > € the "high" wages that can be paid to workers in a country using
> > non-convertible currency which can only be used to purchase
> > over-priced, substandard products;
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> I've heard many bad things said about Nazi Germany but, in the 67 years since
> they
> came to power, you are the only man I have ever heard allege that their
> products
> were "substandard." Everyone else I have ever heard opine on the matter
> believes
> they were excellent.
> 
> Sounds like a case of  'All out of step except Eugene.
> 
> ========================================================

Think again. You must know the word "Ersatz". The Nazis made great
optical equipment, weapons, tanks, precision machinery, homicidal gas
chambers, and the like, but they cut themselves off from the world
economy and had to produce their own Ersatz raw materials, such as oil,
gasoline, rubber, coffee, and chocolate, the quality of all of which
was far inferior to the real thing.


> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I will grant you are capabale of managing the finances of  Eugene Holman. I most
> emphatically do NOT concede that you are competent to decide which policies will
> produce the best sort of long-term results for the ordinary people of America.
> 
> ================================================

Granted. But I do profess to being competent enough to know that all
past experience indicates a closed economy to be the worst possible
alternative available.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:40 EDT 2001
Article: 923942 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!teleglobe.net!213.24.141.54.MISMATCH!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster   won't put unless I create it.)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:11:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <100720012111338459%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <5tkrnm.tdU.8@llfru.mil> <73fedc95.0107082019.1a5db52@posting.google.com> <090720011200595103%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b85b0b8.985236330@news.pacificnet.net> <090720011822211310%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b8ae53c.998682275@news.pacificnet.net> <3B49DEAA.9FA86DF7@earthlink.net>  <3B4A8C32.DE2BB709@earthlink.net> <3b942462.1080396380@news.pacificnet.net> <3b983d19.1086724870@news.pacificnet.net>
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NNTP-Posting-Date: 10 Jul 2001 18:11:30 GMT
User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:923942

In article <3b983d19.1086724870@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> And yet anther place we can find an example of Holman's modus operendi
> of submitting URLs that say nothing to advance his position.
> 
> 
> From: Eugene Holman 
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: Hysterical
> Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 18:23:48 +0200
> Organization: University of Helsinki
> Lines: 36
> Message-ID: <190320011823485614%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>

Now we are dealing with forgery. I have not contributed to the thread "
Re: Hysterical"

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:41 EDT 2001
Article: 923943 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster   won't put unless I create it.)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:12:44 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <100720012112442757%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <5tkrnm.tdU.8@llfru.mil> <73fedc95.0107082019.1a5db52@posting.google.com> <090720011200595103%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b85b0b8.985236330@news.pacificnet.net> <090720011822211310%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b8ae53c.998682275@news.pacificnet.net> <3B49DEAA.9FA86DF7@earthlink.net>  <3B4A8C32.DE2BB709@earthlink.net> <3b942462.1080396380@news.pacificnet.net> <3b973b61.1086283846@news.pacificnet.net>
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:923943

In article <3b973b61.1086283846@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> And yet another recent example of Holman submitting a URL that says
> nothing to advance the credibility of his position or discredit
> revisionist points:
> 
> 
> From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Re: 400,000 Romanian Jews allowed to live?
> Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:29:55 +0300
> Organization: University of Helsinki
> Message-ID: 

The same holds true here. I have not contributed to the thread " Re:
400,000 Romanian Jews allowed to live?l"

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:41 EDT 2001
Article: 923944 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:16:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <100720012116024635%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B4253D0@MailAndNews.com> <3B41427B.3921016C@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0107031258.57403bf9@posting.google.com> <3B423101.A0E1B234@earthlink.net>  <3B44DB4A.C388D94C@earthlink.net>  <3B45B228.19F34515@earthlink.net> <060720011732422549%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B45D16A.C45A4007@earthlink.net> <060720012018233179%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B460AF7.C518080B@earthlink.net> <070720011340336589%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B470D06.3A2E9749@earthlink.net>  <3B4921B3.38837C51@earthlink.net> <090720011138525262%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49B399.D7DDD07@earthlink.net> <090720011845244477%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49E1DC.B9288D39@earthlink.net> <090720012220320877%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net> <100720011835456230%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4B2FD2.EBDE246F@earthlink.net>
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:923944

In article <3B4B2FD2.EBDE246F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> Tell me something I'm going to believe. The Waffen SS was (or at least
> pretended to
> be) an elite organization.
> 
> ============================

So do the US Marines.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:41 EDT 2001
Article: 923992 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!teleglobe.net!213.24.141.54.MISMATCH!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 21:36:30 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <100720012136308503%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B4253D0@MailAndNews.com> <3B41427B.3921016C@earthlink.net> <4bc3e2e1.0107031258.57403bf9@posting.google.com> <3B423101.A0E1B234@earthlink.net>  <3B44DB4A.C388D94C@earthlink.net>  <3B45B228.19F34515@earthlink.net> <060720011732422549%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B45D16A.C45A4007@earthlink.net> <060720012018233179%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B460AF7.C518080B@earthlink.net> <070720011340336589%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B470D06.3A2E9749@earthlink.net>  <3B4921B3.38837C51@earthlink.net> <090720011138525262%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49B399.D7DDD07@earthlink.net> <090720011845244477%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49E1DC.B9288D39@earthlink.net> <090720012220320877%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net> <100720011917075496%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4B2E74.6F2131A4@earthlink.net>
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:923992

In article <3B4B2E74.6F2131A4@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> WAS it? I find that strange. Austria was a far more anti-Jewish country than
> Germany ever was.
> 
> ==============================================

In a simple peasant way, it was, although its large, cosmopolitan
capital, Vienna, was an obvious exception. After the Nazi takeover of
Germany in 1933, Austria struggled hard, until it was forced to give
in, to maintain its democratic traditions and ensure that the country
would remain a haven for people forced by Nazism into exile.

Most importantly, as I see things, is that Austria until 1938 was a
minor power, with minor power-type problems. The Anschluss made it part
of a major power, but in a funny way. Austrians were *downgraded* from
the status of people who could decide their own affairs, including
giving humanitarian aid and refuge to Jews from neighboring countries,
to one having to take orders from Berlin, while their young menfolk in
partiular were *upgraded* from the status of people whose job it was to
defend their own small country to the status of people eligible to
serve as cannon fodder for Germany's adventures to prove points and
gain *Lebensraum*.

Sounds like a great deal.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:42 EDT 2001
Article: 924164 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!netnews.com!newsfeed.icl.net!newsfeed00.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:56:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <110720010956336522%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <5tkrnm.tdU.8@llfru.mil> <73fedc95.0107082019.1a5db52@posting.google.com> <090720011200595103%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b85b0b8.985236330@news.pacificnet.net> <090720011822211310%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b8ae53c.998682275@news.pacificnet.net> <3B49DEAA.9FA86DF7@earthlink.net>  <3B4A8C32.DE2BB709@earthlink.net>  <3B4BDBD4.F2A5CAAE@earthlink.net>
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User-Agent: YA-NewsWatcher/5.0.1
Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:924164

In article <3B4BDBD4.F2A5CAAE@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> 
> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> No I am not going to try another one because I insist on sticking with this
> one. He
> argued that America has the world's highest standard of living and used per
> capita
> GDP figures to support his position. Now the kindest thing I can say about
> this sort
> of "reasoning" is that it is highly superficial, that it makes no attempt to
> look
> below tthe surface of things.
> 
> =================================

I'm still asking for a rebuttal.
1. What country has a standard of living higher than the USA at this
point in time?
2. On what do you base your ranking?


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:42 EDT 2001
Article: 924198 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.algonet.se!algonet!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:00:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 122
Message-ID: <100720011100112239%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <20010706005138.05138.00002347@ng-mb1.aol.com> <3B45F76D.69C1DF07@home.com> <73fedc95.0107061932.75537fc5@posting.google.com> <3B47D252.CCB5C005@home.com> <73fedc95.0107080942.1b20f3f4@posting.google.com> <4d338ce1.0107082023.241ce9eb@posting.google.com> <73fedc95.0107091707.5d06ac7c@posting.google.com>
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:924198

In article <73fedc95.0107091707.5d06ac7c@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

>

>      Diesel exhaust cannot be used to kill people in gas chambers,
> whether by Carbon monoxide or Nitrogen dioxide. The stories that the
> Germans killed people in horrible gas chambers using diesel exhaust
> are fanciful fabrications made up by people who knew little or nothing
> about internal combustion engines.


You are wrong. A diesel engine can be manipulated in many ways to
produce exhaust with high enough concentrations of CO or NO2 to kill
people forced to breathe it within a sealed room within the space of a
few minutes. That's the reason places where even normally running
diesel engines are running have to be well ventilated. Normally running
modern diesel engines are the cuase of several dozen CO poisonings a
year.

Re:
http://www.phymac.med.wayne.edu/FacultyProfile/penney/COHQ/coDiesel01.ht
m


Carbon Monoxide Poisoning



Diesel Exhaust Gases:


Factors tending to increase CO:

*  Abrupt change in power setting / load changes 
*  Less than ideal injection timing, fuel aerosolization, distribution,
and combustion chamber shape 
*  Low combustion temperature 
*  Low operating rpm 
*  Large, heavy-duty size as compared to light-duty engines 
*  Engine not properly maintained 
*  Blocked air intake


Concentrations of 1,000 - 5,000 ppm CO in undiluted diesel exhaust
gases are common, and levels up to 60,000 ppm or higher, are possible.

***********************************************
Source: http://www.boatwashington.org/carbon_monoxide.htm

Information provided by
Washington State Parks &
Boat/US  


------------------------------------------------------------------------

YOUR INSPECTION GUIDE


Is your boat emitting toxic levels of CO?
Does Your boat trap hazardous CO levels?

Follow this step-by-step guide as you perform a safety inspection of
your boat's propulsion system and its aerodynamics. By identifying
potential trouble spots in your boat's mechanical systems and cabin
configuration, and correcting potential problems before they occur, you
can enjoy many hours of safe boating.
Periodic inspections of mechanical systems and total operating systems
will maintain your boat's value as well as it's safety.
If you detect potential problems, consider hiring a mechanic or marine
surveyor for an evaluation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

CARBON MONOXIDE FACTS 

*  Carbon Monoxide is a colorless, odorless, tasteless gas.   It is
produced when a carbon-based fuel such as gasoline, wood, coal, or
charcoal is burned.
*  Carbon monoxide freely disperses through the air, and will readily
travel throughout a boat.

NB! NB! NB!

*  The most common source of carbon monoxide is exhaust from gasoline
or diesel engines. Cooking ranges, heaters, and charcoal grills also
produce carbon monoxide.

NB! NB! NB!

*  Carbon monoxide is a cumulative poison.  Relatively low
concentrations in the atmosphere may accumulate in the victim's blood
over a period of time with serious or fatal results. It is absorbed by
the lungs and attaches itself to the red blood cells, much like oxygen.
However, blood will bond with carbon monoxide 200 times faster than
oxygen.
*  Carbon monoxide discharged as engine, generator, or appliance
exhaust may re-enter your boat through any opening.

   PARTS PER MILLION CONCENTRATIONS 

Here is what the "parts per million" concentrations of carbon monoxide
mean to your health:
100 ppm  .01%  Slight headache in two to three hours
200 ppm  .02%  Slight headache within two to three hours
400 ppm  .04%  Frontal headache within one to two hours
800 ppm  .08%  Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes.
Insensible within two hours.
1,600 ppm   .16%  Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
Death in less than two hours.
3,200 ppm   .32%  Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
6,400 ppm   .64%  Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death
in less than 20 minutes.
12,800 ppm  1.28% Death in less than three minutes.


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:43 EDT 2001
Article: 924208 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 11:57:16 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 153
Message-ID: <100720011157168198%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <5tkrnm.tdU.8@llfru.mil> <73fedc95.0107082019.1a5db52@posting.google.com> <090720011200595103%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b85b0b8.985236330@news.pacificnet.net> <090720011822211310%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b8ae53c.998682275@news.pacificnet.net> <3B49DEAA.9FA86DF7@earthlink.net>  <3B4A8C32.DE2BB709@earthlink.net>
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:924208

In article <3B4A8C32.DE2BB709@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> "Jeffrey G. Brown" wrote:
> 

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> 
> Pisses me off? Hardly. At one time I was a little in awe of Eugene; I'm not
> anymore. Do i regard him as both intelligent and articulate? Yes, certainly.
> Do I
> regard him as having a truly outstanding mind? No.
> 
> His posting of very long texts and using little-known words are obviously
> done for
> effect: the better to awe us intellectual peons.

I'm sorry, Richard. Each of us has his own way of using English. I
admit quite frankly that I have been out of touch with current English
usage, having spent no more than six months of the last 35 years in an
English-speaking environment and spending a good part of time speaking
some other language. One of my reasons for participation in this group
is to try to keep my English from becoming stilted.

In the circles in which I used to hang out when I was in the US, as
well as in the academic circles with which I currently interact, the
English words that I use are perfectly normal. Moreover, if a specific
point is to be made and a more precise word is available, why should
that word not be used?


> Truly great minds do not do
> things
> like that. American slang has an expression for that: snow job.

I'm not competing here for the Great Mind of alt.revisionism title. I
merely try to show that some of the questions you are asking are
specious or irrelevant, and that sometimes requires ferreting out some
rather obscure information or expressing myself in a manner that cannot
be misinterpreted.

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> He is easily impressed by externals, by the superficial. 

Hey, that's your department. You are impressed by Nazi Germany's
"solution" of the unemployment problem, even though this was largely
achieved by hiring many people in non-productive sectors such as
concentration camp guards, neighborhood spies, and swastika stitchers.


> An example of this
> was his
> taking a nation's per capita GNP as a measure of a nation's general
> well-being. Any
> economist knows that it is not.

First of all, the figures I have been citing are not GNP, but rather
GDP/capita. You criticise me for being pedantic, but you play so fast
and loose with the facts that it is sometimes difficultto discuss
anything with you.

Economists know that GDP/capita is a key indicator of a nation's well
being, and that it is generally the first figure looked at in order to
determine the general level of living standards. The American figure of
$33,000, the Mexican figure of $8,000, the Russian figure of $4,200,
and the Albanian figure of $1,600 give a starting point for
understanding the relative living standards in the four countries. You
have challenged my claim that the United States has, overall and with
the possible exception of Luxembourg, the highest standard of living in
the world, yet you were unable to support your view or mention a single
country with a higher living standard, nor could you produce any better
argument than some waffling about the difference between means and
averages. Now, its obvious that money can't buy happiness, and there
are other factors such as literacy, civility, infant mortality, life
expectancy, etc. to be filtered into the equation. Nevertheless, a bit
of Finnish folk wisdom captures the essence: On parempi olla rikas ja
terve kuin köyhä ja sairas - "It's better to be rich and healthy than
poor and sick." More than any other society on earth at the moment, the
United States, taken overall, provides the prerequisites for the first
of these two alternatives, even if there is more polarization than
might be desirable between the options available to the many as opposed
to the options available to the monied.

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> If Eugene were to walk the streets of the central section of an African
> capitol
> city he would be gratified by the sight of the autos, of the modern, gleaming
> buildings, of the well-dressed people. He would have concluded that the
> country is
> doing great because he has seen what he wanted to see. He would not be likely
> to
> ask himself: I have seen no beggars, street vendors, or other unsightly
> types. Is
> that because the country does not have any or because the dictator made sure
> the
> streets were swept clear of them. Having seen the gleaming capitol he would be
> unlikely to ask himself whether what he saw was a sort  of Potemkin village,
> whether maybe conditions in the boondocks might be very different.
> 
> ============================================

This is utter crap and you know it. I've done a lot more traveling than
you have, I've lived and worked in a wider and more diversified range
of countries than you have, and I know how to see past Potemkin
villages. You are the one who is impressed by superficialities:
€ Fred Leuchter's scientifically illiterate sham of a forensic analysis;
€ Nazi Germany's "solution" of the unemployment problem by kicking
efficient people out of the economy and replacing them with less
efficient people;
€ the nonsensical arguments of proven liars such as David Irving about
the relative lethality of cyanide for lice as opposed to humans;
€ the philological imbecilities of linguistic amateurs such as the same
David Irving who would have us believe that *ausrotten/Ausrottung* when
used by the Nazis does not mean what it has meant in German since the
1600s;
€ the absurd pronouncements of Robert Faurisson that one must assume
that a homicidal mass-execution gas chamber, intended to melt into its
environment, look harmless, and be undectable, must necessarily be a
technical device with all the unnecessary bells, whistles, ocean-proof
glass, sealing, and electronics found in its American counterpart,
which is intended to symbolize to the victim and the winesses that the
supreme punishment is being implemented;
€ quibbling about the different units of measurement used by Leuchter
as opposed to the IFRC in their analysis of cyanide compunds found at
the Auschwitz gas chambers rather than drawing the necessary and
obvious conclusions from the implications of the fact that such
compunds were found at all after a period of nearly half a century;
€ the "high" wages that can be paid to workers in a country using
non-convertible currency which can only be used to purchase
over-priced, substandard products;
€ believing the tendentious bilge spewed out by the likes of David
Cole, Ernst Zündel, Fred Leuchter, and David Irving (who has been
forced to retract many of his views in the light of overwhelming
evidence refuting them), rather than studying the work of bona fide
historians of the WW II period such as Raul Hilberg, Christopher
Browning, and Robert Jan van Pelt. 

You lack any understanding of the long-term implications of economic
policies, either in theory or in practice, whereas I have more than
thirty years experience, surviving, and even successfully investing
money in hyperinflating, unstable economies. So please don't accuse me
of not knowing my economics, or of not understanding how to evaluate
the performance a society on the basis of its key economic indices.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:43 EDT 2001
Article: 924234 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
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In article <3b8e638b.1031021490@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> 
> I mean what the hell Holman, right here in this thread you have
> invented a straw man about an alleged "favorite" revisionist theme
> that says there couldn't have been any 6,000,000 Jews killed because
> there wasn't that many in Germany. As far as I know all revisionists
> would accept the figure of 250,000 to 500,000. And Holman, when you
> put forth that incredibly corrupt straw man invention you're saying
> that revisionist think the story tells us all the alleged 6,000,000
> came from Germany. In fact Holman, the Holocaust story has very few
> accounts about German Jews being sent to the gas chambers.  You are
> one incredibly corrupt 'person' Holman.

Source: 
http://www.greatunpublished.com/Authors/samples/Stephen_Woods_sample.htm


As bad as the holocaust was in Nazi Germany, where 6,000,000 Jews lost
their lives, it pales in comparison to the magnitude of these murders
of the unborn.


Source: article 
>In article , 'The Last Rebel' 
> wrote:
>
>This is a lie pureand simple. The holohoax, excuse me, holocaust is
officially 
>defined as the killing by Cyclon B gas in execution gas chambers of
six 
>million German Jews in Germany.



The manner in which the questions are posed in the following notorious
tract, certainly a central denier document, also implies that German
Jews were victims, that the defining moment of the Holocaust is
gassing, but that they couldn't have been because the extermination
camps were in Poland. In actual fact, about half of the Holocaust
victims were gassed, with the other half having died or been killed by
means such as the mass-shootngs arranged by the Einsatzkommandos,
provoked pogroms in Nazi-occupied territory, abuse, starvation,
extrajudiciary shootings, death during deporations, peseudo-medical
experiments, hangings, disease, or death marches.

Source:
http://www.zundelsite.org/english/advanced_articles/incorrect.004.html


1. What proof exists that the Nazis killed six million Jews? 

None. All we have is postwar testimony, mostly of individual
"survivors." This testimony is contradictory, and very few claim to
have actually witnessed any "gassing." There are no contemporaneous
documents or hard evidence: no mounds of ashes, no crematories capable
of disposing of millions of corpses, no "human soap," no lamp shades
made of human skin, and no credible demographic statistics. 


2. What evidence exists that six million Jews were not killed by the
Nazis? 

Extensive forensic, demographic, analytical and comparative evidence
demonstrates the impossibility of such a figure. The widely repeated
"six million" figure is an irresponsible exaggeration. 


3. Did Simon Wiesenthal state in writing that "there were no
extermination camps on German soil"? 

Yes. The famous "Nazi hunter" wrote this in Stars and Stripes, Jan. 24,
1993. He also claimed that "gassings" of Jews took place only in
Poland. 


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:43 EDT 2001
Article: 924266 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Supersedes: <110720011022219632%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B4BC9FB.E1275E21@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>

> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 

> The LAST thing that any unit commander wants in his outfit are seriously
> disaffected men who
> are bound to have a poisonous effect on morale. Any commander with his head
> screwed will a
> hundred times rather do without than introduce such people into his outfit.
> If you either did
> not know that or are incapable of grasping it then there is little I can do
> for you.
> 
> =====================================

You are thinking in terms of an army mad up of essentially free men
fighting for a country they want to defend or a cause they believe in.
I am talking about two dictatorships desparately looking for cannon
fodder for themselves, while trying to prevent the other side from
replenishing its ranks.

Latvia during the summer of 1944 was not a nice place for a healthy
young man to be.

The Soviets, who had absorbed Latvia in 1940, only to be chased out by
the Nazis the next year, were on their way back in. They regarded all
young men there as Soviet citizens with the obligation to serve in the
Soviet Army and fight for the cause of communism. For them, any young
man found fighting in a German uniform was a traitor by definition and
dealt with accordingly.

The Nazis, who had invaded Latvia and run it like a concentration camp,
not trusting Latvians with any administrative position higher than
policeman, expected young Latvian men to fight in the military
structures they were setting up there to defend what was at that time a
part of the Reich against the invading Soviet army. It would put these
men in concentration camp (Salaspils) or shoot them if they refused to
do so.

The majority of Latvian men just wanted a restoration of the pre-war
Latvian Republic and had no desire to fight in the army or for the
interests of either occupier, but there was no Latvian army, since the
Soviets had liquidated the old one and the Nazis had taken robust steps
to prevent the establishment of a new one. Many young Latvian men took
to the woods and fought as partisans against the Nazis and the Soviets

There are ways of forcing young men to fight for causes they don't
believe in, and a commander who is in charge of a unit that
"conscripts" men at gunpoint is going to have ways of maintaining
discipline and ensuring that orders are followed.

Even Finland's army, I'm sad to say, had to resort to officers with
revolvers, ready to stage a court-martial at the blink of an eye,
stationed right behind the front lines to keep their soldiers, many of
them frightened schoolboys in their teens, from retreating or running
away in panic as they fought, hopelessly outnumbered, against the
Soviet Army in 1939-40, and 1941-44, and against the German Army in
1943-44.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:43 EDT 2001
Article: 924277 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!sn-xit-03!supernews.com!mtu.ru!news2.aha.ru!news-zero.demos.su!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 15:51:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> They never had PLANS to reduce Leningrad to rubble; they'd have much
> preferred to
> capture it whole.
> 
> ===========================

Sorry, Richard, you don't know your history.

Hitler's plans were to take Leningrad, hold a victory party at the
Hotel Astoria (http://members.nbci.com/ruscity/Stpete/astorias.htm),
for which he even had the invitation cards printed up in advance, sack
the city's art treasures, and then demolish it.

His armies made good of his plans in the outskirts of town, where
Catherine the Great's Summer Palace at Tsarskoe Selo was heavily
vandalized, while fountains on the estate of Peter the Great's Summer
Palace, Petrodvorets, were systematically wrecked. What tourists see
today are partial restorations of what were smouldering ruins in 1945.
It's not only the gas chamber at Krema I in Auschwitz-Stammlager that
has had to be subjected to a process of partial restoration before it
could be presented to the public.

Source: http://www.alexanderpalace.org/catherinepalace/history.html

Note: Tsar's Village = Tsarskoe Selo, the town in which the palace is
located.


Tsar's Village as well as watercolours, gouaches, and engravings of
different periods depict palaces, parks, and pavilions in Tsarskoye
Selo (some of which have yet been restored from the damage of the
Second World War, and may only be seen in these old illustrations shown
in the exhibition), and objects of applied art are able to illustrate
the eqipment of palace interiors, or costumes help imagine the Tsar's
wardrobes.


Have a look at the picture "The destruction of World War II" at
http://users.rcn.com/web-czar/homes.htm to see what the Nazis were
doing to the environs of Leningrad. Petrodvorets
(http://www.baltic.spb.ru/Destination_English/St-Petersburg/Museums/Pete
r_Palace_petrodvoretz/peter_palace_petrodvoretz.htm) was also
deliberately vandalized by the Nazis ("During World War II, the estate
was occupied, and all of the buildings and fountains were destroyed. 
Since then, nearly all of the damage has been repaired, and the palace
fountains have been restored to their original splendour.")

Trash a continent is just what the Nazis were doing; there is no excuse
for this type of wanton vandalism. It takkes more than a generation to
live down this type of shame.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:44 EDT 2001
Article: 924286 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!newsfeed.online.be!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Supersedes: <100720011519076613%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 16:25:12 +0300
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In article <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =====================================
> € withdrew from Finland, destroying everything in its tracks with a
> scorched earth policy,
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> It will need a lot of convincing before I'll believe that.

I hope I don't drown you in information, but since you have obviously
never heard of this conflict, here is some information on the Lapland
War, September 15, 1944 ­ April 25, 1045.


First, a short lesson on Finland's participation in WW II:

1. Finland, a neutral an unaligned country, was sneak-attacked by the
USSR on November 30, 1039. The USSR had wanted Finland to move its
border further westwards, something the Finns had refused to consider.
When talks broke down, the Soviets arranged a fake border incident,
attacked Finland on this pretext, while simultaneously sponsoring the
establishment of a bogus Finnish revolutionary government run by exiled
veteran Finnish communist Otto Ville Kuusinen in the resort town of
Terijoki, hoping to incite a civil war and communist revolution.
Finland fought bravely and inflicted horrible losses on the Red Army,
but it was overwhelmed and had to sue for peace, which was concluded on
March 13, 1940. The peace terms required Finland to cede 1/10th of its
territory, including its second largest city Viipuri (now Vyborg), its
industrial heartland, and most of its hydroelectric capacity, to the
USSR. The 12% of its population living in the area was forced out,
allowed to take with them only what they could carry. As one might
understand, feelings in Finland were extremely bitter about the war nd
its outcome.

2. When Germany attacked the USSR in 1941, Finland, after a few days
hesitation, joined in. Its status was that of cobelligerent, not ally,
and its aims were limited to regaining the territory lost the previous
year. Germany, overextended, was pleased to have the Finns, who
understood the terrain and winter warfare, as comrades-in-arms,
tolerating such anomalies as Finnish Jews fighting alongside Wehrmacht
soldiers. Finnish Jews distinguished themselves on the Eastern Front,
and two of them were awarded the Iron Cross, second class, by the
Germans, which honor both of them declined.

3. In 1944, when it became obvious that Germany could not win the war,
in the hope of saving Finland from incorporation into the USSR, the
Finnish leadership, under Marshall C. G. E. Mannerheim, an old czarist
officer, negotiated a ceasefire and eventual separate peace with the
USSR  on September 19, 1944. This disentangled Finland from its
alliance with Germany. In accordance with the terms of the treaty,
Finnish forces would turn against their former comrades-in-arms, the
Germans. The retreating Germans burned the cities and trashed the
infrastructure of Northern Finland, burning forests, towns, and cities,
poisoning wells, laying mines, demolishing bridges, ripping up railroad
tracks, and raping women persuant to an order issued on October 13,
1944 to "destroy everything in Lapland", as they withdrew to Norway.
Rovaniemi, the capital city of Lapland, was literally wiped off the map
by the Germans.

4. In similar circumstances, the Germans retaliated against Hungary by
arresting, deporting, and killing Jews, who, as in Finland, had been
left in peace as long as it was to Germany's advantage. Finland had far
too few Jews, some 2,300, to make their forced deportation to Auschwitz
worth the trouble.


But don't take my word for it:

Source: http://www.lysator.liu.se/nordic/mirror/sa-int/hist.html


The Lapland War (15) Sep 1944 - 27 Apr 1945

------------------------------------------------------------------------

7 Sep 1944 Finnish peace delegation arrives to Moscow. 

8 Sep 1944 First German troops start retreat in Kestenga sector. 

14 Sep 1944 Finnish delegation starts negotiations on interim peace.
Germans lay mines in the Gulf of Finland. 

15 Sep 1944 German attempt to seize Suursaari island. Landing fails and
Germans have to surrender. They lost 1253 men dead or POW, plus
additional 900 drowned with 9 vessels. First losses in Northern
Finland: 3-men motorcycle patrol is destroyed after refusing to
surrender. Germans destroy airfield in Pori. 

18 Sep 1944 Germans and Finns make an agreement concerning how Germans
will leave Finland. This prevents all battles until Oct. 

19 Sep 1944 Interim peace is signed in Moscow. Troops begin to withdraw
to borders of 1940. Other terms include reparations for the sum of US$
300 million, demobilization of armed forces and allowing the Communist
Party to operate in Finland. Final peace is signed in 1947 in Paris. 

22 Sep 1944 First members of Allied Control Commission arrive in
Helsinki. Soviets take Tallinn, capital of Estonia. 

28 Sep 1944 First actual battle between Finns and the Wehrmacht in
Pudasjärvi. 

29 Sep 1944 Last Finnish troops leave Soviet Union. Porkkala area is
given to Russians. 

30 Sep 1944 Soviets demand active war against Germans. Three merchant
ships leave the port of Oulu, carrying 11th Infantry Rgt. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Oct 1944 11th Rgt lands in Tornio and takes the town. Armored
Division begins to advance in Pudasjärvi. 

2 Oct 1944 Germans counterattack in Tornio and battle rages for four
days, then Germans leave. 

3 Oct 1944 Hitler issues order that 20. Gebirgsarmee will evacuate
Finland and retreat to Norway. 

7 Oct 1944 15th Brigade and Det. Pennanen take town of Kemi. Finns find
a German liqueur storage, and attack is halted until storage is empty.
Soviets launch a major attack in Petsamo and take nickel mines, which
have been the main reason for keeping the strong German army in the
northern Finland. Mines were producing 80 % of nickel required by
German war industries. 

9 Oct 1944 11th Division begins advance along to Swedish border. 

10 Oct 1944 Town of Rovaniemi, the capital of Lapland, is completely
destroyed by Germans. 

13 Oct 1944 Germans issue the order to destroy everything in Lapland. 

16 Oct 1944 Finns reach the ruins of Rovaniemi. 

18 Oct 1944 Armored Division continues advance after battles in
Rovaniemi slowly, because of thousands of mines. Border Guards Brigade
takes Kemijärvi and ends it's war there. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 Nov 1944 Demobilization of army to peacetime levels begins according
to the terms of the interim peace. This begins to hamper action against
Germans. 

6 Nov 1944 Advance in north-west Finland stops in front of strong
German defense line. No real attacks can be attempted since unit
stregths are decreasing rapidly because of the demobilization. Soon
only 1st Division is pushing the Germans to Norway. It's combat value
is low and it waits until Germans leave voluntarily. 

12 Nov 1944 Sales of alcohol is banned in Finland until 6 Dec, so that
the demobilized soldiers can't make trouble. 

14 Nov 1944 Central Council of Finnish Jews issues a statement that
freedom and rights of the Finnish Jews have not been violated in any
way during the war. 352 Jews fought in the Continuation War and 23 were
killed in action. 

18 Nov 1944 Germans leave the northernmost tip of Finland. 

22 Nov 1944 Soviets return first batch of POW's. 





(English edited slightly, the original page is in Finnish with a rough
and ready English translation following)

Pictures from Wars during Finland´s independence
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The War of Lapland        15th September 1944 - 25th April 1945

One term in the cease fire argeement between Finland and the Soviet
Union was that all German troops from Northern Finland, Lapland, had to
leave Finland´s areas in two weeks. Because it was impossible for the
Germans troops to leave Lapland with all their equipment, as they wanted
to, within the stipulated time, Finnish troops invaded the coastal towns
which were under German rule, because of the Soviet Union´s demands that
Finland should "be more active in Lapland.".
        
German troops were completely surprised and in revenge for this
declaration of war, they used the tactic of scorched earth. They burnt
almost every building in Lapland except a few in outlying districts,
and they also layed mines to slow down the advance of Finnish
troops. The last German troops went to Norway in 23rd April and the war
in Lapland was declared over a few days later on 25th April 1945.



See the photographs of the damage done in Lapland by the retreating
Germans at
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~avalpas/images/Lapinsota/Rintama/Lapinsota_Rintama
_cat.html


Source: http://www.rovaniemi.fi/taide/maakmus/surviv.htm


The events of the Second World War brought dramatic change to
Rovaniemi. The market town was turned into a command centre for German
troops operating in Finland. While it lasted, this brotherhood of arms
had a varied, but mostly favourable influence on the local life and
economy. 

However, the truce entered into with the Russians in the autumn of 1944
in order to end the war severed this alliance. And the Finns were
required to take military action in order to expel the German troops
>from Northern Finland. This was the beginning of the Lapland war which,
although of little significance militarily, devastated the area. Among
other things the retreating German troops almost completely destroyed
Rovaniemi. In the exhibition two scale models of Rovaniemi, one in 1939
before the destruction and the other in 1944 after, depict these
phases.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:44 EDT 2001
Article: 924663 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!sn-xit-02!supernews.com!isdnet!newsfeed.online.be!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 12:36:59 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 130
Message-ID: <120720011236596025%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3B45F76D.69C1DF07@home.com> <73fedc95.0107061932.75537fc5@posting.google.com> <3B47D252.CCB5C005@home.com> <73fedc95.0107080942.1b20f3f4@posting.google.com> <4d338ce1.0107082023.241ce9eb@posting.google.com> <73fedc95.0107091707.5d06ac7c@posting.google.com> <100720011100112239%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <73fedc95.0107100905.483a49f4@posting.google.com> <4d338ce1.0107110628.7b6a9bb@posting.google.com> <73fedc95.0107111854.4bdd3d87@posting.google.com>
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In article <73fedc95.0107111854.4bdd3d87@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:


> 
>      It also means the professor's opinion (and that seems to be the
> totality of his website) is worth no more than the website he agrees
> with.  Like Professor Penney, Nizkor offers no sources.  The author of
> the article at Nizkor mentions Holtz and Elliot, but the experiments
> and tests conducted by Holtz, et al, do not support the notion that
> diesels can easily be manipulated to produce sufficient concentrations
> of lethal chemicals to kill people in a short time.
> 
>     All of the tests and experiments conducted by reputable scientists
> and engineers show diesel exhaust is unhealthy but not deadly except
> in extreme circumstances and over a period of time. Nitrogen dioxide
> can be increased only by reducing the proportion of fuel to air, and
> Carbon monoxide can be increased only by reducing the proportion of
> air to fuel.  Both reach dangerous levels only at the extremes, where
> the diesel engine can barely run because of the imbalance.  In either
> case, the concentration of gases in the exhaust is insufficient to
> kill people in a relatively short time suitable to gas chambers.
> 

Reread what you yourself have just written:

> "Nitrogen dioxide
> can be increased only by reducing the proportion of fuel to air, and
> Carbon monoxide can be increased only by reducing the proportion of
> air to fuel.  Both reach dangerous levels only at the extremes, where
> the diesel engine can barely run because of the imbalance. "

You are conceding that a diesel engine can be run in such a way that CO
reaches dangerous levels. Now, if I had a diesel engine and I wanted to
use it to kill people trapped in an airtight room, I would obviously
run my engine in that way.

The diesel gas chambers were not efficient, and they gave way to gas
chambers using normal gasoline powered motors which, in turn, gav eway
to Zyklone B gas chambers. The only point we are trying to make is that
a diesel engine can easily be made to run in such a manner that its
exhaust has a CO content above the 500 ppm level, enough to to kill
people forced to breathe it within 30 minutes.

Carbon monoxide is produced when *anything* burns, so if you understand
the physical chemistry of the combustion process, you cannot argue that
diesel exhaust will not contain CO: it has to because it is the product
of the combustion process. The questions are: 
1. How much CO does it contain?
2. To what degree can changing the operating parameters raise or lower
the CO content of diesel exhaust?
3. What amount of CO is needed to kill people?

The Environmental Protection Agency states:

Source: http://www.epa.gov/oar/emtrnd94/poll_co.html



Most anthropogenic CO is generated in combustion processes. Internal
combustion engines, both in on-road vehicles and in diverse non-road
source uses, comprise the principal sources, contributing about 62 and
16 percent, respectively, of the estimated 98 million short tons of CO
emissions in the United States in 1994. The majority of the carbon in
gasoline and diesel fuel is oxidized to carbon dioxide (CO2), a concern
in its own right as a greenhouse gas (see chapter 10). A small fraction
(up to 8 percent in an uncontrolled gasoline engine) is incompletely
oxidized to CO, which is poisonous to humans.



The occupational health pages of CDC Wonder, a District of Columbia
agnecy, tell us:

Source: http://wonder.cdc.gov/wonder/prevguid/m0037050/m0037050.asp



Even though diesel equipment and well-maintained gasoline-fueled
equipment that are fitted with catalytic converters emit less CO, the
reduced levels may be too high for safe indoor use.



The diesel engines we are talking about were  manufactured more than 60
years ago and lacked catalytic converters. Even under normal operating
conditions their exhaust would have contained levels of CO "too high
for safe indoor use".

Not even "modern" diesel eingines are hazard free with respect to CO
emissions:
Source: [PDF] www.nrdc.org/air/transportation/schoolbus/schoolbus.pdf



Some engine manufacturers argue that new diesel school buses which run
on current California reformulated diesel fuel (required in most of
California since 1993 and also called CARB diesel) are ³clean² diesels
and should no longer be considered a public health threat. These claims
run counter, however, to actual emissions of air toxics, NOx, and
PM from current diesel school buses. Diesel engines‹new and
old‹continue to pose serious health threats. With particular
significance for school children, the South Coast Air Quality
Management District (SCAQMD) estimates that a new diesel school bus
emits 51 times more air toxics than a new natural gas school bus.95
Moreover, the cleanest diesel engine on the market today still can only
meet the EPA emissions standards set in 1994 for heavy-duty engines (4
grams per brake horsepower-hour (g/bhp-hr) for NOx and 0.10 g/bhp-hr
for PM). As Table 4 below shows, even the cleanest diesel engine
certified for school bus applications in the 2001 model year (MY)‹the
Cummins 5.9 liter engine‹will emit nearly 2 times more NOx and 3.5
times more PM than the equivalent natural gas engine certified in 2000.
96 Similarly, the larger Cummins diesel school bus engine certified in
2001 (the 8.3 liter) emits 2.3 times more NOx and 5 times more
PM than the equivalent natural gas engine certified in 2000. 97 In
terms of global warming emissions, the Department of Energy found that
natural gas buses, on average, reduce carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions by
15­20 percent when compared to a diesel school bus.98 Some
natural gas engines may emit slightly higher carbon monoxide (CO)
emissions than their diesel engine counterparts. The increase in CO is
marginal, however, and does not outweigh the significant NOx, PM, and
other benefits achieved with natural gas engines.99 Certification
data for diesel, CNG, and propane engines are contained in Appendix E
of this report.




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:44 EDT 2001
Article: 924718 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Supersedes: <120720011248408196%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 15:22:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <120720011522031660%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B4253D0@MailAndNews.com> <3B45B228.19F34515@earthlink.net> <060720011732422549%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B45D16A.C45A4007@earthlink.net> <060720012018233179%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B460AF7.C518080B@earthlink.net> <070720011340336589%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B470D06.3A2E9749@earthlink.net>  <3B4921B3.38837C51@earthlink.net> <090720011138525262%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49B399.D7DDD07@earthlink.net> <090720011845244477%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49E1DC.B9288D39@earthlink.net> <090720012220320877%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net>  <3B4B4EAE.DCC5095B@earthlink.net>  <3B4B6D9B.9A70894@earthlink.net> <110720010702509397%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4BBB9A.CE9217A1@earthlink.net> <110720010753543897%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4BE2A9.D616738E@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B4BE2A9.D616738E@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>
> ===========================
> Phillips
> 
> I would have thrown everything against Leningrad because the distance is the
> shortest and there would have been no flanks to protect. Then ,with that as my
> base, (renamed St. Adolphsburg of course) I would have expanded into White
> Russia and the Ukraine, set them up as (sort-of) independent republics.
> 
> =============================================================

Not to second-guess you, but that would not have solved the problem.
Germany's attacking the USSR was like a leopard attacking an elephant.
He get's one chance and one chance only, and that means going for the
jugular and destroying the capability of the victim to function. Going
for Leningrad, an important but subordinate city, is like the leopard
thinking he can kill the elephant by biting his balls off. Injured?
Yes. Fatally taken out? Not by a long shot.


> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> The German problem way have been not merely the stupidity of one man but also
> German military culture which is predicated on quick victory and shrinks form
> the very notion of a war of atrition as from the pit of hell.
> =====================================

There is also the arrogance factor. They went into the war six weeks
in advance of the first night frosts and autumn rainstom with
absolutely no back-up plan for winter war and only prepared for summer
weather and dry terrain. Hitler specifically forbade them to load
themselves down with "unnecessary" winter equipment.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


"Whistle while you work,
Hitler was a jerk."


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:45 EDT 2001
Article: 924792 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 18:19:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <120720011819493207%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <73fedc95.0107061932.75537fc5@posting.google.com> <3B47D252.CCB5C005@home.com> <73fedc95.0107080942.1b20f3f4@posting.google.com> <4d338ce1.0107082023.241ce9eb@posting.google.com> <73fedc95.0107091707.5d06ac7c@posting.google.com> <100720011100112239%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <73fedc95.0107100905.483a49f4@posting.google.com> <4d338ce1.0107110628.7b6a9bb@posting.google.com> <73fedc95.0107111854.4bdd3d87@posting.google.com> <120720011236596025%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3b4fb50d.1248529285@news.pacificnet.net>
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In article <3b4fb50d.1248529285@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

>

> Nothing more than comparison of Diesel exhaust to natural gas
> emissions. Nothing that tells us that Diesel gives off dangerous
> levels of CO that can kill in minutes. In fact the above focuses more
> on NOx and CO2 than any CO. 

Nevertheless, it states that even "modern" diesel engines with
catalytic converters operating under optimal conditions, still generate
unhealthy concentrations of CO.

> 
> And so here again we have Holman submitting some references that do
> nothing to support his/Holocaust position. What is it Holman? Are you
> incapable of recognizing what is and what ain't or are you just being
> a little imp out to insult the world?


I'm here to force you and your ilk to admit two things:

1. Diesel exhaust contains CO.
2. The operating parameters of a diesel engine can be adjusted to
maximize the CO concentration, thus ensuring that the CO concentrations
are lethal to anyone trapped in an airtight room and forced to breathe
the exhaust.

So impishly simple is my agenda.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:45 EDT 2001
Article: 924854 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:49:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 99
Message-ID: 
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In article <73fedc95.0107122006.6bb26b2a@posting.google.com>,
morghus@MailAndNews.com (Morghus) wrote:

>

>      
>        Face it.  The Holocaust stories claim the Germans killed masses
> of people in minutes using diesel exhaust which US safety experts did
> not consider a serious health risk.  Such stories are nothing but
> impossible fantasies dreamed up by vengeful German haters after the
> war was over.

Face it. Diesel engines can be made to run so that their exhaust contains
lethal concentrations of NO, NO2, and CO. Here is a summary of the gases
present in diesel exhaust.

Spurce:
http://www.maintenance.org.uk/RESEARCH/Deet/Diesemissions-%202nd%20link.html



Section 3 - Gas Phase Pollutants
3.1 - Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) 

Nitrogen oxides are nitric oxide (NO) and nitrogen dioxide (NO2) formed
when nitrogen and oxygen (from the combustion air) react together due to
the high temperature and pressure in the combustion chamber. The very
short duration of expansion stroke  and the geometry of a standard
combustion chamber means that the flame does not fully spread into the
whole chamber. This creates Œhot-spots¹ were fuel is not burned and at
certain temperatures and pressures, NOx forms from the combustion air. 
Nitrogen oxide is a colourless, odourless gas whereas NO2 is a toxic
red/brown gas with an unpleasant odour. NO2 is very reactive and oxidises
very easily. On leaving the combustion chamber, virtually all NOx is in
the form of less harmful NO. However, NO easily oxidises to NO2 in the
atmosphere making NOx one of the more critical of the exhaust pollutants.
NOx contributes to photochemical smog, acid rain, destruction of the ozone
layer and is toxic to humans and animals. 

3.2 - Nitrous Oxide (N2O) 

This pollutant is better known as laughing gas. It is colourless, has a
sweet odour and causes narcotic effects on humans. This is currently an
unregulated exhaust pollutant. 

3.3 - Sulphur Dioxide (SO2) 

Sulphur dioxide is a direct result of the presence of sulphur in diesel
fuel. SO2 is colourless but has a distinct, irritating odour and can
oxidise easily to SO3, which dilutes in water to form acid rain (H2SO4).
Sulphurous emissions are in direct proportion to the sulphur content in
fuel meaning that emissions levels can be calculated directly from the
sulphur concentration in fuel. Low sulphur fuels are being brought onto
the market to combat the problem. 

3.4 - Hydrocarbons (HC) 

Many different hydrocarbon species are found in diesel exhausts,
originating from the diesel fuel and the lubricating oil. Short chain
hydrocarbons are derived from the fuel whereas longer chains are derived
>from the lubricating oil. Hydrocarbons are characterised by an irritating
odour and some are toxic such as benzene and other polycyclic aromatic
hydrocarbons (PAH). Aldehydes are suspected to act as human carcinogens.
Hydrocarbons exist either in the gaseous phase or in the liquid phase
adsorbed onto the surface of particulate matter. 

3.5 - Carbon Monoxide (CO) 

CO is odourless, colourless and toxic making it one of the most dangerous
of the diesel pollutants. The concentration of CO in a diesel exhaust is
low and can easily oxidise to CO2. Carbon monoxide is a result of
incomplete combustion and is formed in a similar manner to carbon
particulate. 




Factors such as the nature of the diesel fuel, the load capacity, the
running speed, the cleanliness and overall condition of the engine,
impediments to full air intake, and the synchronicity of the engine cycle
all contribute to determining the concentration of CO and NOx in the
exhaust. Additionally, as the table at 
http://www.maintenance.org.uk/RESEARCH/Deet/Diesemissions-%202nd%20link.html
indicates there has been a marked decrease in the amount of CO in diesel
exhaust during the past ten years owing to technical innovations. The
diesel engines of 60 years ago were not as technically efficient as those
of ten years ago or today, nor were they equippped with afterburners to
oxidize the more noxious exhaust components.

Diesel exhaust is not the most efficient lethal agent for homicidal
gassing, that does not preclude the possibility of its having been used
for this purpose. Diesel exhaust always contains CO and nitrous oxides,
and the exhaust produced by older diesel engines has higher concentration
of these pollutants than do madern engines which have afterburners. The
concentration of the main pollutants in diesel exhaust can easily be
increased to lethal levels by changing the operating paramaters.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:46 EDT 2001
Article: 924976 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newspump.monmouth.com!newspeer.monmouth.com!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Richard Phillips - a question if you don't mind...
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 00:05:36 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 77
Message-ID: <130720010005364770%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B4253D0@MailAndNews.com> <3B45D16A.C45A4007@earthlink.net> <060720012018233179%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B460AF7.C518080B@earthlink.net> <070720011340336589%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B470D06.3A2E9749@earthlink.net>  <3B4921B3.38837C51@earthlink.net> <090720011138525262%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49B399.D7DDD07@earthlink.net> <090720011845244477%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B49E1DC.B9288D39@earthlink.net> <090720012220320877%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4A57F8.AEB7881F@earthlink.net>  <3B4B4EAE.DCC5095B@earthlink.net>  <3B4B6D9B.9A70894@earthlink.net> <110720010702509397%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4BBB9A.CE9217A1@earthlink.net> <110720010753543897%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4BE2A9.D616738E@earthlink.net> <120720011522031660%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B4DA417.F522587E@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B4DA417.F522587E@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B4BE2A9.D616738E@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > ===========================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > I would have thrown everything against Leningrad because the distance is
> > > the
> > > shortest and there would have been no flanks to protect. Then ,with that
> > > as my
> > > base, (renamed St. Adolphsburg of course) I would have expanded into White
> > > Russia and the Ukraine, set them up as (sort-of) independent republics.
> > >
> > > =============================================================
> >
> > Not to second-guess you, but that would not have solved the problem.
> > Germany's attacking the USSR was like a leopard attacking an elephant.
> > He get's one chance and one chance only, and that means going for the
> > jugular and destroying the capability of the victim to function. Going
> > for Leningrad, an important but subordinate city, is like the leopard
> > thinking he can kill the elephant by biting his balls off. Injured?
> > Yes. Fatally taken out? Not by a long shot.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wars can end in many different ways; the total crushing of one side is one of
> those
> ways but only one. Prior to the modern era of TOTAL war a far more common
> outcome
> was for the losing side to suffer nothing worse than humiliation and the loss
> of a
> province and (subsequently to 1870) being handed a bill known as indemnity.
> 
> Being in undisputed possession of Leningrad (sorry, St.  Adolphsburg) the
> German
> position would have been a very strong one.
> 
> (1) Because the front is so narrow the position could be easily defended.  
> Russia's
> enormous manpower reserves would have been of little use -- even ASSUMING that
> manpower could have been motivated to expel the invaders (who had yet to slit
> their
> own throats by large-scale atrocities)

Unfortunately, the Germans were committing large-scale atrocities from
day one. Even if most of them were initially directed against Jews and
Gypsies, the local populations could not help but take notes and think:
"Now they're killing the Jews and Gypsies. When will it be our turn?"



> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> 
> (2) Russia has just suffered not only the loss of her second city (and all the
> resources that go with it) but a crushing humiliation as well. Her Western
> provinces
> --White Russia and Ukraine-- would start wondering whether this might  be a
> golden
> opportunity to rid themselves of the hated Stalinist regime.
> 
> ========================================================

The Nazis behaved so savagely in Byelorussia and Ukraine that it took
little time for the locals to understand that Satan himself would have
been a better host and taskmaster.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:46 EDT 2001
Article: 925155 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Comparing living standards (Was Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 15:29:58 +0300
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In article <3B4BEABE.ACDB8CBE@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > > =================================
> >
> > I'm still asking for a rebuttal.
> > 1. What country has a standard of living higher than the USA at this
> > point in time?
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I suspect strongly that both Sweden and Germany (at least prior to
unification)
> do.


I said "at this point in time". Unification was almost ten years ago. Even
then, West Germany had a living standard which was by any measure markedly
lower than that of the US. Sweden a decade ago had living standards which
were in many respects higher than in the USA, but it has lost ground and
now actually has the lowest living standard measured in terms of
GDP/capita and other indices of the five Nordic countries, where the
richest by far is Norway. Sweden, which decided not to join EMU and
replace its krona with the Euro, is currently having great difficulty
defending the international value of its currency. We'll look at that
later.

You admitted that GDP/capita can be used to give a preliminary impression.
Let's have a look:

Source:  http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook
United States

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $33,900 (1999 est.) 

GDP - composition by sector: 
agriculture: 2% 
industry: 18% 
services: 80% (1999) 

Population below poverty line: 12.7% (1999 est.) 

Household income or consumption by percentage share: 
lowest 10%: 1.5% 
highest 10%: 28.5% (1994) 

Unemployment rate: 4.2% (1999)

Infant mortality rate: 6.82 deaths/1,000 live births (2000 est.) 

Life expectancy at birth: 
total population: 77.12 years 
male: 74.24 years 
female: 79.9 years (2000 est.) 

Literacy: 
definition: age 15 and over can read and write 
total population: 97% 
male: 97% 
female: 97% (1979 est.) 
**************************************************

Sweden

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $20,700 (1999 est.) 

GDP - composition by sector: 
agriculture: 2.2% 
industry: 30.5% 
services: 67.3% (1997) 

Population below poverty line: NA% 

Household income or consumption by percentage share: 
lowest 10%: 3.7% 
highest 10%: 20.1% (1992) 

Unemployment rate: 5.5% plus about 5% in training programs (1999 est.) 

Infant mortality rate: 3.49 deaths/1,000 live births (2000 est.) 

Life expectancy at birth: 
total population: 79.58 years 
male: 76.95 years 
female: 82.37 years (2000 est.) 

Literacy: 
definition: age 15 and over can read and write 
total population: 99% (1979 est.) 
male: NA% 
female: NA% 
**************************************************
Germany

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $22,700 (1999 est.) 

GDP - composition by sector: 
agriculture: 1.2% 
industry: 30.4% 
services: 68.4% (1999) 

Population below poverty line: NA% 

Unemployment rate: 10.5% (1999 est.) 


Infant mortality rate: 4.77 deaths/1,000 live births (2000 est.) 

Life expectancy at birth: 
total population: 77.44 years 
male: 74.3 years 
female: 80.75 years (2000 est.) 

Literacy: 
definition: age 15 and over can read and write 
total population: 99% (1977 est.) 
male: NA% 
female: NA% 
**************************************************

For refence note:                  (rounded off to nearest digit)

Luxembourg          $34,100          101%
USA                 $33,900          100%
Singapore           $27,800           82%
Switzerland         $27,100           80%
Norway              $25,100           74%
Belgium             $23,900           71%
Denmark             $23,800           70%
Canada              $23,300           70%
France              $23,300           69%
Netherlands         $23,100           68%
Germany             $22,700           67%
Kuwait              $22,500           66%
Australia           $22,200           65%
United Kingdom      $21,800           64%
Italy               $21,400           63%
Finland             $21,000           62%
Sweden              $20,700           61%
Ireland             $20,300           60%
Israel              $18,300           54%
United Arab Emir.   $17,700           52%
Spain               $17,300           51%
Portugal            $15,300           45%
Greece              $13,900           41%  
Chech Republic      $11,700           35%
Slovenia            $10,900           32%
Slovakia            $ 8,500           25%
Mexico              $ 8,500           25%
Poland              $ 7,200           21%
South Africa        $ 6,900           20%
Gabon               $ 6,500           19%
Estonia             $ 5,600           17%
Belarus             $ 5,300           16%
Lithuania           $ 4,800           14%
Bulgaria            $ 4,300           13%
Latvia              $ 4,200           12%
Russia              $ 4,200           12%
Romania             $ 3,900           12%
Botswana            $ 3,900           12%
Ukraine             $ 2,200            6%
Albania             $ 1,650            5%                       


What we see here is the following:
1. The Swedish GDP/capita is 61% of the USA's.
2. The German GDP/capita is 67% of the USA's.
3. Germany and Sweden have a high-taxation welfare state which
redistributes income and thus ensures that there are few extremely rich
people and even fewer extrmely poor people. Thus, in Sweden, the poorest
10% of the population consumes 3.7% and the richest 10% consumes 20.1%.
(The figures are from 1992, but the situation has not much changed now).
For Germany this inforation was not given. For the US it is 1.5% for the
poorest 10% and 28.5% for the richest 10%, indicating a sharper
polarization of American society into 'haves' and 'have nots'.
4. Germany and Sweden have taxpayer financed national health care systems,
for which reason high-quality medical care is available to everyone at
little or no cost. The United States has repeatedly rejected proposals to
institute such as system. One result is that the German and Sweden infant
mortality rates are roughly half what they are in the US.
5. Germany and Sweden both have 10% unemployment rates, the Swedish figure
looking nicer because the government has a broad system of job retraining.
Unemployment benefit in both countries are far more generous than in the
US, and a person is not expected to pull up stakes and move to find a job.


As a person who has worked in both Sweden and Germany I can state with
confidence that the living standards in both countries were and are high.
An important difference between both of them and the US is the role played
by big government, something you see quite concretely when you see that
about 45% of the average worker's wages goes into direct taxes. Every time
you buy something you pay a sales tax (properly called a business
transaction tax) which in Germany is 16% (http://www.german-taxation.com/)
and in Sweden a whopping 25%
(http://www.swetax.com/internationellt/jamfor.asp). For this you get a
society which has little evident poverty, quality public services,
including mass transit, as much free education as you can absorb, and good
to very good quality free medical and dental care.

On the other hand people have considerably less disposable income than
Americans have, prices, in particular, food prices, are much higher,
housing is more cramped, since it has to be much more sturdily built, and
gasoline costs abut $4/gallon. 



Measured in terms of overall quality of life Sweden, but not Germany, can
give the US a run for its money. On the other hand, its Nordic neighbors
Finland, Denmark, Iceland, and particularly oil-rich Norway have all been
somewhat more successful economically than Sweden during the past few
years. Germany is still burdened with the task of rebuilding the slum and
industrial museum that was the GDR and paying for the material and human
damage it caused during WW II, and this has a negative impact on its
standard of living. Nevertheless, you'll hardly find a Swede who would
claim that Sweden has a higher standard of living than the US does: it's
easier to make money in the US, wages in many sectors (but not industry)
are higher, and the government takes a smaller share.

Sweden is able to pay exceptionally high industrial wages (in the $20/hour
range) because it has closed down smokestack industries and concentrating
on state of the art technology. It has, however, met with stiff
competition from Finland. In information technology Finnish Nokia
continues to reign supreme, while its Swedish competitor, Ericsson,
recenly laid off 10,000 workers, and will probably lay off even more in
the near future. Like Finland, Sweden decided a generation ago to cut down
on exporting paper, which sells for $200/ton, and concentrate on exporting
products incorporating technology nobody has mastered, at $10,000 ton.



> 
> ======================================
> 
> >
> > 2. On what do you base your ranking?
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> German money wages are higher (you yourself admitted that). but then taxes are
> much higher. One can say that much of thein wage is a "social wage.' I have no
> great problem with that.

It costs an employer substantially more to get an hour of work out of a
German or Swedish industrial worker than it does in the US, because of all
the employer's fees that the government requires. On the other hand, the
after-tax wages of a Swedish or German worker are about the same as that
of an American, but I would way that their buying power is about 80% that
of an American worker's due to generally higher prices levels, the
ubiquitous 15 or 25% transfer tax, and the fact that the United States is
a much larger market, allowing for lower prices.

The template at http://www.swetax.com/internationellt/jamfor.asp gives
some idea of the salaries for certin professions in Sweden and other
countries, showing gross slaries, net salaries, and the various taxes. For
a person holding a masters in engineering, for example, it gives the
following:

A master of engineering in USA gets 1 138 $ more in his/her 
pay packet than his/her Swedish colleague. 

THE EMPLOYER PAYS 
Sweden      4 004 $     

USA         4 997 $     

 
IN THE PAY PACKET 
Sweden      1 734 $     

USA         2 871 $     

                                            SWEDEN                 USA 
The employer pays                          4 004 $             4 997 $ 
Employer social security contributions   - 1 167 $             - 608 $ 
Salary                                     2 837 $             4 389 $ 
Taxes and charges                        - 1 103 $           - 1 518 $ 
In the pay packet                          1 734 $             2 871 $ 

********************************************************************************

A Press Reporter in USA gets 239 $ less in his/her pay packet than his/her
Swedish colleague. 


THE EMPLOYER PAYS 
Sweden      3 611 $     

USA         2 107 $     

 
IN THE PAY PACKET 
Sweden      1 615 $     

USA         1 377 $     

                                            SWEDEN                USA 
The employer pays                          3 611 $            2 107 $ 
Employer social security contributions   - 1 053 $            - 642 $ 
Salary                                     2 559 $            1 850 $ 
Taxes and charges                          - 943 $            - 474 $ 
In the pay packet                          1 615 $            1 377 $ 


********************************************************************************


> 
> When I think about standard of living, I factor in a  great many things
not in the
> realm of the strictly material.
> 
> I believe that in European countries
> 
> --Life is more stable, the pace less frantic.

It depends upon the country and region. What you say is certainly true for
peaceful Finland (except for when the Russians attack), but it's most
certainly not true for London, Paris, Amsterdam, Hamburg, Berlin,
Frankfurt-am-Main, Munich, Prague, Budapest, St. Petersburg, Moscow,
southern Spain and France, or most of Italy. Helsinki is actually also
quite a lively town, even if most of Finland is lakes and forests.


> 
> --Life is not so savagely competitive

Yes and no. The trend in the Europe of the past decade has been to
increase the degree of competitiveness. This is one of the main topics of
social debate in Finland right now: the collapse of the USSR and EU
membership have forced many quite painful shakeouts in Finnish agriculture
and industry. Many of the simpler types of industrial production which the
Finns were doing to supply the giant Soviet market have now been farmed
out to Estonia, where wage levels are about a quarter what they are in
Finland. On the other hand, for lunch today I had ostrich stew, something
I would never think of seeing in our university canteen a few years ago.
When Finnish farming underwent its shakeout, many people sold out, but a
few farmers decided to try something adventurous. They imported some
ostriches from South Africa and began to raise them. Now Finland raises
and exports ostrich meat, once again a product the dollar value of which
is much higher than the eggs, pork, and butter which Finland produced far
too much of for the local market, but which could only be exported with
government subsidies, since agriculture cannot be practiced as efficiently
in cold country like Finland as it can be in warmer climes. The long and
the short of it is that Europeans do not want to be an economic appendage
of the United States, and they realize that the only way to avoid this is
to become leaner, meaner, and more competitive. When the Euro is
introduced formally next January, it will be possible to use the same
currency within the EU, with a few exceptions, from Portugal to Finland.
This will introduce a new element of competition: comparative shopping
will be easier, and there will be no overhead for currency exchanges or
risks of currency fluctuation within the market.


> 
> --That one enjoys more congenial physical surroundings, that links to
the past are
> not being constantly obliterated by the greed of "developers."

You can't generalize. Due to the extensive damage done to European cities
during the war, the centers of almost all major central European cities
have been rebuilt, sometimes from scratch, as in Düsseldorf and Rotterdam,
sometimes as partial restorations, as in Warszaw and Berlin. Particularly
in Eastern Europe, the eye is lacerated by the ugly projects-type high
rises that encircle the central cities. The unlandscaped highrise slums
built during the communist period surrounding Bucharest, Prague, Dresden,
St. Petersburg, Tallinn, Moscow, and Berlin, represent some of the most
unesthetic architecture you could imagine. Due to the lack of
environmental controls in the former eastern block, the surrounding of
Plzen in the Czech Republic, of Cracow in Poland, and of the open-pit oil
shale mine near Kohtla-Järve and Kiviõli in Estonia are some of ugliest
and/or most polluted industrial landscapes in the world.

> 
> --You have nothing like so many mothers forced into the job market to
maintain the
> family's accustomed scale

In Germany a Hausfrau culture exists, but German women are better educated
than German men, and their mothers had to run the country during the 50s
and 60s when men were in short supply for reasons we need not go into.
Kinder, Kirche, und Küche is thus not an option for the present generation
of professionally active German women. Sweden, which has long idealized
the woman with a profession, where raising children at home is regarded as
anti-social, and where more than 60% of babies are presently born outside
of marriage, has long had a system of heavily subsidized day care for
working mothers. In neither country is it a realistic option to raise a
family on one income even if generous children's allowance paid by the
government often make part-time work for the mother an economic option.


> --You have nothing like so many people in abject poverty

That's due to wealth redistribution, the social democratic welfare state,
as wee call it. People in Germany and Sweden generally make less money
than Americans do, but taxation redistributes it so that even a person who
has been unemployed for several years can maintain a middle-class living
standard. Americans would never accept a social arrnagement like that. 


> 
> --You have all of the blessings that come with a largely homogeneous
population.
> 
> =====================================

In most large German cities the center has been taken over by Turks,
Africans, Arabs, and Indians. The last time I was in Frankfurt-am-Main I
was surprised at the large amount of Persian, Arabic, and Amharic I saw
written in the windows of shops and restaurants. In the three largest
Swedish cities, Stockholm, Gothenberg, and Malmö, there are large numbers
of African, Chinese, Indian, Albanian, Kurdish, and Yugoslav refugees and
immigrants. If you use the sevice of the Stockholm Transit Authority, the
bus driver or metro ticket seller is likely to be wearing a turbin: many
of the Sikhs who have immigrated to Sweden work for the transit authority.

******************************************************************
You might be interested in this fresh news item from our local newspaper:
Source: http://www.helsinki-hs.net/news.asp?id=20010710IE10&pvm=20010710


Foreign - Tuesday 10.7.2001 

Finland at #1 in UNDP Technology Achievement Index


According to the United Nations Development Programme's report on human
development for 2001, to be published officially today, Finland ranks at
the top of the heap as the world's technologically most advanced nation.
Finland is followed by the United States, Sweden, and Japan. Somewhat
surprisingly, South Korea leaps into fifth place over the Netherlands and
the UK. 
   
The UN's Human Development Report focuses this year on the issue of
"making new technologies work for human development," highlighting the
emergence in developing countries of centres of excellence as a means of
harnessing science and technology to reduce poverty. 


For the first time, the publication ranks countries according to a
Technology Achievement Index (as well as the well-known Human Development
Index). 
   
This TAI is the one where Finland has scored big. It measures such things
as internet connections, telephones, the number of patents being
registered, and education levels. A total of 72 countries were included in
the study, rather fewer than feature in the Human Development Index. 
   
Finland also figured prominently in a list of the world's most important
technological centres. The Greater Helsinki area (Helsinki, Espoo, Vantaa;
our "Silicon Valley-in-the-Snow") was 7th behind the real Silicon Valley,
and Oulu also showed up well in 29th place, in front of such cities as
Chicago and the Glasgow-Edinburgh conurbation in Scotland. 


Apart from allowing one or two unwise Finns to engage in a bit of
tub-thumping at the nation's good showing, the report reminds us once
again of how the world has become divided into two along technological and
digital as well as economic lines. The digital divide has become a chasm. 
   
The level of development here in Finland is put into perspective when one
understands that a third of the world's population - that's two thousand
million people - still live without electricity. In the most developed
countries, electricity has been exploited for light and energy on a large
scale since the 1870s. One hundred and thirty years is the gap. 


According to the UNDP Report, advanced technologies such as biotech
solutions to produce faster-growing and hardier strains of transgenic
plants could help to reduce poverty and transform lives in developing
countries. One improved harvest is of course not sufficient to do it,
since such things as food distribution required new technology and new
infrastructures. 
   
Part of the problem in this field is that people are eager to employ the
latest technological advances even if older technology has not yet been
implemented properly. In the words of Juha Rekola, of the Service Centre
for Development Cooperation (subordinated to Finland's Foreign Ministry):
"Sure, in remote areas nowadays they could send e-mail to the
administrative centres to say that they have no food - if, that is, they
had electricity to power the computer." 

Equally, lest we become too dazzled by our own wonderfulness in being so
developed, it is worth remembering that technological development often
does a disservice to mankind and the damage is not noted for years to
come. 
   
To take but one example, the CFCs used as refrigerants in refrigerators or
as propellants in aerosol cans were invented in 1928, but it took all of
half a century to discover that chlorofluorocarbons also contributed to
the destruction of the ozone layer. 
   
Then there is the arms industry, the development of which is the subject
of billions and billions each year. It is most unlikely that the more
developed countries would like to see that the developing world has access
to or can exploit this kind of advanced weapons technology. 

On the Human Development Index, the big news story is that Canada has been
toppled from its accustomed position at #1. The Canadians have headed the
list - which is based on life expectancy, health, education and adult
literacy, and the standard of living, rather than mere GDP per capita -
for the past six years, but now the title goes to Norway, with Australia,
Canada, Sweden, Belgium and the United States taking the following places.

   
Finland moves up slightly from 11th to 10th, but the country retains its
"positive" status, in that it is several places higher on the HDI than it
would be in terms of pure GDP. 
   
Some of the ostensibly "rich" countries, such as Kuwait and the UAE, show
up considerably less favourably in such comparisons, and the USA and
Switzerland are also both "negative" scorers, with people getting less
development bang for their bucks. 



The United Nations Human Development Report can be found at
http://www.undp.org/hdr2001/
 
Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:46 EDT 2001
Article: 925239 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
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In article <3b5403b4.1334213131@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> 
> The fact is, Diesel exhaust doesn't have the chemical content to make
> it a good choice for mass extermination in chambers. 

Here we are in total agreement, at least if the issue is looked at from
a purely theoretical standpoint. If we look at the holocaust
literature, we see at least the following methods used (I'm not going
to give references to each one here, but can if needed):

1. tamked pressurized CO (T4 euthanasia program, Majdanek)
2. exhaust gas from trucks pumped into sealed freight area (Chelmno)
3. diesel engine exhaust (Treblinka)
4. gasoline engine exhaust (Belzek, Sobibor; later Treblinka)
5. Zyklon B (Auschwitz, later Belzek, Majdanek, Sobibor)

The Nazis had perfected the methodology of mass gassing in 1940.
However, they continued to experiment with alternative lethal agents.
Why? Because they were fighting a war, and were notoriously short of
crucial raw materials. Tanked, pressurized CO was an ideal means of
killing people, but it was expensive and would arouse suspicions.
Diesel exhaust was slower, but diesel fuel was cheap, easy to obtain and
relatively inexpensive. Gasoline was more efficient, easy to obtain,
but became increasingly expensive as the war dragged on. Zyklon B was
the cheapest and most efficient method of all, and the stuff was widely
used anyway, so its use wuldn't arouse suspicions.

All of these factors come into play. A good organization is going to
have several alternative ways of getting its job done, and diesel
exhaust, while hardly the optimal agent for mass gassings in an absolute
sense, was good enough to get the job done without arousing too many
unwelcomed questions.

> Gauss can say all
> he wants to about the possibility of NOx or NO2 being lethal
> components but no where in any Holocaust accounting does it say those
> compounds were what was considered to be the lethal component. Carbon
> monoxide is the only compound mentioned. Would Gauss come out and say
> the Germans actually did studies or considerations of Diesel exhaust
> and then decided to use it because of any NOx/NO2 content?

It could have been the other way around: they gassed a test batch and
observed the typical signs of carbon monoxide poisoning. This convinced
them that a diesel engine could produce lethal gas suitable for the
job. They fooled around with the engine to see how variations in
operating parameters affected the CO content of the exhaust. You don't
have to carry out studies to know that diesel gas contains CO and NOx,
and even an engineer with a superficial knowledge of diesels
understands that its operating parameters can be adjusted to
increase CO levels.

> 
> This is a funny thread. On the one hand we have Holman struggling to
> sell CO as the lethal agent in Diesel exhaust and Gauss conniving for
> NOx/NO2. What should be going on is a debate between Gauss and Holman.
> Of course they could very well say its both, the oxides of Nitrogen
> and CO. But then again we have the real facts, that gasoline exhausts
> are lethal and would be the logical choice founded on any scientific,
> observational or historical awareness of the dangers of gasoline
> engine fumes. 

There is no dispute between Gauss and myself. We both admit that the
diesel exhaust emitted by a modern diesel engine normally has
non-lethal CO and NOx concentrations, even though manufacturers and
environmental standards authorities do not expect people to sit in
sealed rooms and breathe the stuff. Our point is that any diesel
engine, even a modern one, can be made to operate in a non-optimal
manner, and doing so can raise CO and/or NOx contents of its exhaust to
lethal levels.
 
> After all, how would it be that the Germans came to use any of the
> alleged methods for mass extermination? Did they just throw darts at a
> list on the wall or would they have gone through some empirical
> considerations?  What are these two persons Gauss and Holman trying to
> say by their going on about the Diesel engines would have to be
> mistuned? 

They don't have to be mistuned. All that is necessary is to run them
under less than optimal conditions. Diesel fuel with a high sulpher
content, running a large engine at low capacity, not mainatining the
engine, allowing the engine to get out of synch, partially blocking the
air-intake, any one or set of these strategies can raise the
concentration of CO and/or NOx to lethal levels.

Source: http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leuchter-faq-19.html


Exhaust gas composition of a diesel engine, running at the correct
fuel-air ratios (% by volume): 

O2: 1.5% 
CO2: 13.5% 
CO: 0.5% 

[note, this is 500 ppm, already enough to cause drowziness, EH]

Exhaust gas composition of a diesel engine running at a fuel-air 
ratio of 0.094 (% by volume): 

O2:   0.3% 
CO2:  10.2% 
CO:   6.0% 

The data clearly demonstrates that simply restricting the air intake of
the engine, any diesel engine will produce sufficient CO to be clearly
and rapidly fatal (6% CO represents roughly 60,000 ppm). This data
(Holtz & Elliot) appeared in Transactions of the ASME in early 1941,
and was probably known to the Nazis. 




> That the Germans discussed the Diesel option and then
> decided to use it putting out a directive stating Diesel exhaust would
> be used along with a appendage that stated the engines would have to
> be mistuned? How ridiculous. 

Agreed. Much more likely is something along the following lines. 

People such as Wirth and Stengl, who had worked within the euthanasia
program, were given general orders to test various lethal agents for
killing by exhaust gasses. Gasoline was known to be the best, diesel a
distant second runner.

Chelmno, was chosen as an experimental site. There, initially at least,
people were killed in mobile gas chambers by exhaust from gasoline
engines.

Belzek, Sobibor, and Trelinka were the three main extermination
centers. They all used stationary chambers. Belzek and Sobibor began as
pure gasoline exhaust camps, while Treblinka was a mixed camp, using
diesel and gasoline. We see several modalities:

                     Chelmno   Belzek   Sobibor    Treblinka
Stationary              -         +        +           +
Gasoline                +         +        +           +
Diesel                  -         -        -           +

Anybody planning budgets and resource allotment would prefer a data
input such as the following to one in which all the parameters were
identical.


> Or maybe Gauss/Holman would have us
> believe it was all left up to those in the field to dream up ways of
> exterminating Jews. In that case we would imagine some person(s) in
> the field saying something like, 'Hey lets use the fumes from Diesel
> engines' and finding out that it didn't work all that well but then
> one day discovered that one of the Diesel engines was running bad and
> that resulted in quick deaths?  
> 
> The fact is, no where in any Holocaust narration does it say anything
> about NOx/NO2 or mistuning engines. The fact is it's entirely the
> desperate 'brain child' of those Gauss(s)/Holman(s) on
> alt.revisionism.


Engines don't need to be mistuned to work at less than maximal
efficiency. Using Ersatz-diesel fuel would be enough. 


> 
> For the Germans to have opted for Diesel exhaust over gasoline exhaust
> would be like them choosing a water pistol over a real gun. 

You can cause somebody to drown with a water pistol, so seen from the
standpoint of getting the job done, both are potentially effective
instruments for killing people.

Nobody is disagreeing with you. Surely you would agree that in a war
situation, it's important to master more than one modality of getting a
job done. Gasoline engines were the method of choice until they were
replaced by the still more efficient Zyklon B. That doesn't mean that
the Nazis hadn't mastered the art of mass-murder using diesel exhaust
as well. Or to use an analogy, if I'm going to knife a person, I would
ideally go for the jugular. There are, however, a few other choice
places in the human body which, if stabbed, will not have the dramatic
and irreversible effect of a strike at the jugular, but will
nevertheless rapidly produce the desired result: a corpse.

You really ought to learn to think in terms of alternative degrees of
optimality and functionality.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:46 EDT 2001
Article: 925297 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:35:22 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3ba467bb.1163185616@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Morghus had said:
> >  I went to that site and when I clicked on the URL labeled "Other
> >> sources on diesel exhaust," I was sent to The Nizkor Project site.
> >> Since when has Nizkor been a source of serious scientific information?
> >>  You will have to excuse us if we are a little skeptical of a college
> >> professor who uses Nizkor as one of his scientific sources.
> 
> Steve W says:
> >What is it about 'other' that you don't understand, knucklehead?  You're
> >busted again.  Getting to be a habit with you, isn't it?  You're in way over
> >your head, Mortice.
> 
> 
> The "other" being NIzKOR. How is it this Penney has a link to NIzKor
> as an authority on carbon monoxide?  
> 
> I sent off a letter to Penney asking him a few questions. Will he
> reply? Who knows.
> 
>                 ====================================
> 
> 
> Mr.Penney,
> Greetings. I notice on your web site that it states -
> 
> "Concentrations of 1,000 - 5,000 ppm CO in undiluted diesel exhaust
> gases are common, and levels up to 60,000 ppm or higher, are
> possible."
> 
> You don't cite any study or source for that statement.  Looking up CO
> poisoning on the Internet doesn't take us to anything that reports on
> deaths from Diesel fumes whereas your figures above can exceed the
> fatal concentrations.  In fact the causes for death by CO poisoning
> can be from many sources but no Diesel mentioned.  In fact CO isn't
> even mentioned as a component of concern as being a hazard to health.
> 'Particulate' matter, NO and NO2 maybe but no CO. 
> 

A simple search of the web shows that CO emitted by diesel motors
running in improperly ventilated rooms has indeed resulted in carbon
monoxide poisonings. In the case described below, there was
intervention before any deaths occurred, but CO levels that cause
unconsciousness in the short term are lethal in the longer term:

Source:
http://www.sweatshopwatch.org/swatch/headlines/1997/poisoning_dec97.html



Carbon Monoxide Poisoned Workers at Salvadoran Factory



December 8, 1997 

DINDEX UPDATE:
Carbon Monoxide Poisoned Workers at Salvadoran Factory
Pressure Still Needed on Labor Ministry and the Apparel Industry
Partnership

On Tuesday, November 11 over 100 workers at the DINDEX garment factory
in El Salvador were poisoned. Many of the workers (including several
pregnant women) passed out, and suffered from nausea and convulsions. A
number required artificial respiration and cardiac massage. At least 3
workers remained hospitalized over two weeks later. Their current state
of health is unknown. 

The cause of the poisonings has been determined to be carbon monoxide
probably released by a diesel generator inside the factory, and the
complete absence of ventilation. The windows of the factory have been
cemented shut since war-time. 



Numerous other websites cite diesel exhaust as a source of CO. 

Source:



What are some of the sources of carbon monoxide in the boating
community? CO is a byproduct of the combustion of carbon containing
materials such as gasoline, natural gas, propane, coal or wood. It
should be noted that a properly tuned gasoline engine can produce as
much as 50,000 PPM (parts per million) CO, while a properly tuned
diesel engine might produce as little as 250-500 PPM. Obviously, the CO
danger associated with a diesel engine is less by the order of
magnitude indicated by the above numbers. However, recently there has
been at least one reported case of CO problems associated with diesel
engines, so they should not be ruled out as a carbon monoxide
generator. Marine related sources of CO, other than engines, are open
flame devices, such as cooking ranges, heating systems (both central
and portable), water heaters, solid fuel stoves and fireplaces, and
charcoal grills. In order to give some sense of scale to the
concentration of CO (PPM) necessary to do damage to humans, I offer the
following figures (these figures were taken from a study of CO by the
U. S. Army Human Engineering Laboratory). A person entering an
atmosphere containing approximately 180 PPM CO will experience a slight
headache in approximately 1 hour. A person exposed to 600 PPM CO will
experience permanent brain damage/death in approximately 70 minutes.
Exposure to 1600 PPM will result in permanent brain damage/death in
approximately 22 minutes. Remember that gasoline engines can produce
50,000 PPM, well tuned, and operating properly. These dramatic numbers
are intended not to frighten you, but to make you aware so that you
might take the relatively simple steps to avoid the dangers of carbon
monoxide. Even the high concentrations associated with gasoline engines
can be diluted with fresh air to achieve acceptable levels , if dealt
with properly. 




Source: http://www.sma.org/smj/96dec9.htm



Carbon monoxide (CO) is produced on a submarine by three methods only:
cooking (the least significant), diesel exhaust, and tobacco smoke (the
most significant).5 [= 5. US Navy Nuclear Submarine Atmosphere Control
Manual. Washington, DC, 1988] Tobacco smoke produces even higher levels
of CO in submarines during nonventilated operations. Carbon monoxide
levels provide a good measure of passive smoking on a submarine, where
the other sources are eliminated or kept at a minimum. 




Source: http://www.kele.com/Tech/Monitor/Gases/Diesel.html

Did You Know?
Carbon Monoxide Sensors Do Not Detect Diesel Exhaust?


What if the vehicles in the parking garages or at the loading docks are
not gasoline powered, but are diesel engines? Many people are surprised
to learn that carbon monoxide sensors will not detect diesel exhaust.
Although carbon monoxide is one of the components of diesel exhaust,
the levels are much lower than from a gasoline engine and therefore
difficult to detect. Since a diesel engine emits a lower level of
carbon monoxide, is it necessary to monitor for diesel exhaust fumes?
The United States Department of Labor states, "Over one million workers
exposed to diesel exhaust face the risk of adverse health effects
ranging from headaches to nausea to cancer and respiratory disease".
(1)



Source: http://www.afcintl.com/coapp.htm


Carbon monoxide (CO) is a colorless, tasteless and odorless gas this is
virtually impossible to detect by the human senses. Carbon monoxide is
produced by incomplete combustion processes such as idling diesel truck
engines, small gasoline powered engines and poorly tuned forklift
propane and gasoline engines.

The toxic effects of low levels of CO include headaches, dizziness and
nausea. At high levels (500 ppm and up), confusion, cyanosis, angina
and asphyxiation can occur. Workers in these areas breath in carbon
monoxide gas molecules which get transferred into the lungs. In the
lungs the CO molecules take the place of oxygen molecules and bind
themselves to red blood cells (hemoglobin). This binding is very strong
and does not allow oxygen molecules to attach, thus oxygen cannot be
sent into the body. Asphyxiation quickly takes place.
OSHA Limits:

The OSHA PEL level for CO is currently at 50 ppm. The PEL is an average
gas concentration a worker can be exposed to for an eight hour work
shift period and not suffer any short or long term health problems.
OSHA has also established a 200 ppm CO gas ceiling. This level should
never be exceeded even for short periods of time. Note: Poorly tuned
forklift trucks can produce CO gas in excess of 2,000 ppm.




Source:
http://www.carbonmonoxidekills.org.uk/linkstore/Carbon%20Monoxide%20Pois
oning%20Facts.htm




Harmful levels of carbon monoxide are a potential danger to: acetylene
workers, blast furnace workers, boiler room workers, brewery workers,
carbon black makers, coke oven workers, customs workers, diesel engine
operators, dock workers, garage mechanics, metal oxide reducers,
miners, organic chemical synthesizers, petroleum refinery workers, pulp
and paper workers, steel workers, toll booth and tunnel attendants, and
warehouse workers. 




Source: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/3478/carbonmonxide.html


Where does it come from? 

Carbon monoxide is produced by incomplete combustion of fuels such as
oil, propane, coal, wood, natural gas, gasoline, diesel fuel, charcoal,
and kerosene. Faulty or inadequately vented vehicles and appliances
that use these fuels -- furnaces, fireplaces, wood stoves, charcoal
grills, kerosene heaters, gasoline-powered vehicles, lawn mowers, and
snow blowers -- can produce deadly amounts of carbon monoxide. 




Summa summarum: there does not appear to be any questioning the fact
that diesel engines can be run in such a manner that they produce
lethal amounts of CO. One of the passages quoted above states: that "a
properly tuned diesel engine might produce as little as 250-500 PPM",
while another notes that "At high levels (500 ppm and up), confusion,
cyanosis, angina and asphyxiation can occur." They don't even have to
be "tweaked". The amount of CO can be increased to exceed lethal
concentrations by allowing a large diesel engine to run at low speed,
by not maintaining the egine, by nit adjusting it if it gets out of
synch, or by partially blocking its air intake. Any one or combination
of these strategies will ensure that exhaust is generated which would
have a concentration of CO lethal to people forced to breathe it while
locked in an otherwise airtight room.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:47 EDT 2001
Article: 925322 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news.tele.dk!212.88.64.227!sonofon.dk!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
Supersedes: <110720011927558665%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 19:32:11 +0300
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In article <3B4C5786.4B04A1F0@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I am dealing with what YOU wrote and I am demanding that you back the
> following
> statement:
> 
> > " It's easy to solve all your problems if
> > > > you are willing to steal and kill without compunction.
> 
> How were stealing and kiling instrumental in the German industrial recovery?
> Facts,
> please.
> 
> Anh stop trying  to hide behind Holman.
> 
> =======================================

The short answer (and I'm not going to research a long one) is that
Germany, lacking many crucial raw materials, decided to emulate the
Vikings, Vandals, and Goths of yore: "We'll steal what we need". The
Nuremberg trials are full of lists submitted by municipal governments
in France, the Netherlands, Poland, etc. telling of how city
treasuries, buses, banks, museums, trucks, fuel, property confiscated
>from Jews, etc. were piled into trains and shipped back to Germany. The
one military justification for the otherwise insane attack on
Stalingrad was to capture the Caspian oil fields.

Just one example. Hitler's voodoo economic policies resulted in the
rapid depletion of Germany's gold reserves from the 937 million
Reichmarks they had stood at when he came to power to only 72 million
Reichmarks four years later. Germany desparately needed to refresh its
gold reserves to pay for the raw materials required by its industry,
but it was not able to do this as normal countries do by selling their
industrial products abroad in exchange for foreign currency or gold
because its industrial products were too overpriced due to the
artificially high exchange rate of the Reichsmark for them to be
competitive in the international marketplace. The only way to get more
gold was to steal it. And steal it they did. The Nazi lust for gold was
one of the reasons they were so eager to dismember Czechoslovakia and
annex Austria: the gold reserves held by their central banks were
systematically plundered by Germany.

Source: http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/1998/09/F.RU.980910133704.html



The Tripartite Gold Commission ended its work after returning 336 tons
of plundered gold--at current prices, worth about $4 billion -- found
in Nazi caches and in neutral countries. An additional 177 tons
reported missing from Nazi-occupied countries after the war were never
found. The last disbursement the commission made was four bars of gold
to Albania two months ago (July 13), while another three bars due to
the ex-Yugoslavia is being held by the Bank of England until its six
successor states can decide how to divide it up. 




http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/tripartite_gold_commission.html
History



In September 1946, the United States, Britain, and France established
the Tripartite Commission for the Restitution of Monetary Gold (TGC).
The commission has its roots in Part III of the Paris Agreement on
Reparation, signed on January 14, 1946 concerning German war
reparations. Under the 1946 Paris Agreement, the three Allies were
charged with recovering monetary gold looted by Nazi Germany from banks
in occupied Europe and placing it in a "gold pool." 

Claims against the gold pool and subsequent redistribution of the gold
to claimant countries were to be adjudicated and executed by the three
Allies. The Allies founded the TGC for exactly this purpose and located
it in Brussels. The TGC was not responsible for the recovery of the
gold: The Allies themselves recovered all monetary gold from occupied
Germany and from neutral nations to which the Nazis had transferred it.


Claimant Countries

Albania
Austria
Belgium
Czechoslovakia
Greece
Italy
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Poland (including Danzig)
Yugoslavia 





Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:47 EDT 2001
Article: 925386 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news1.spb.su!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Fake gas chambers at Auschwitz -  (was Re: My closed postmaster won't put unless I create it.)
Supersedes: <110720011849118939%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 22:19:15 +0300
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In article <3B4C55EE.CE624CBA@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> That was true before Man invented the art of writing and printing. This makes
> ti possible for a
> man to share the experiences of many others.
> 
> The mere fact that Eugene has "been there" is no proof against his failure to
> see things he
> never WANTED to see.
> 
> ===============

When you are going to live and work in a country, there are some things
you cannot avoid seeing. Preparation for such an experience involves,
among other things, learning the language and finding out about the
country's history and culture. I have worked in Frankfurt-am-Main,
Stockholm, Helsinki, Tallinn, and Kiev. I've also spent extended
periods in Sofia, Göttingen, Leningrad/St. Petersburg, Poznan, and
Moscow. You can't just bop into a place like that and not see, hear,
and read how things are. 

George Bernard Shaw visited Ukraine, Henry "I've seen the future and it
works" Ford visited the Soviet Union, and the Swedish explorer Sven
Hedin visited Nazi Germany. All were received as honored guests and all
were impressed, but none of them spent at least a month there living
off the local economy, maintaining a household, drinking and dancing
with the locals, and speaking with them in their own language as I have
in the places where I lived and worked.

I learned a lot about Nazi Germany when I worked alongside and drank
beer with men who had been in the Wehrmacht and the Einsatzgruppen when
I worked in Germany for two months in 1964. I've checked out much of
the stuff they told me in museums, libraries, and archives. I admit
that nobody can see everything, but have always made an effort to
understand the culture I happen to be in to the best of my ability.
Shaw, Ford, and Hedin allowed themselves to be snow-jobbed. I dig below
the surface and try to understand the causal links that have resulted in
things being as they are.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:47 EDT 2001
Article: 925909 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Morghus: Caught in another clumsy lie
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 08:42:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <140720010842326427%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <73fedc95.0107131652.5d7a3f48@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:



>       You are the one who argues diesel exhaust produces large
> quantities of NO2, and that this terrible gas was used to kill
> hundreds of people in minutes in deadly diesel gas chambers.  So far,
> we have established that diesel exhaust contains very little NOx, only
> a small fraction of the NOx becomes NO2 when mixed with air after it
> cools down, and the conversion could take hours.  Between the two of
> us, with a little help of Mr. Holman and Mr. Moran, I think we have
> proven beyond doubt that diesel engines cannot be manipulated to
> produce any gas or combination of gases which could conceivably be
> used in homicidal gas chambers.

If that's so, how do you explain this:

Source: http://www.gpmu.org.uk/hs/health/msg00014.html


Date: 16:26:24 Thursday 25 Jun 1998 

Diesel Exhaust Fumes


Circular No. 120/98
11th June, 1998


This bulletin provides basic information about diesel exhaust fumes. It
is based on material published by the National Institute of
Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), in the United States.

In addition, many of the individual components of diesel exhaust are
known to be hazardous. For example, nitrogen oxides can damage the
lungs, and carbon monoxide can aggravate heart disease and affect
coordination.


NOT IN CONFINED SPACES

Operating engines in confined spaces or poorly ventilated areas can
lead to dangerous levels of carbon monoxide, exposing employees to
carbon monoxide poisoning. It may also lead to high inhalation of
particulates.

A hazard can exist in workplaces such as cold stores, enclosed store
rooms or any workplace where there is poor ventilation, no fresh air
intake or no mechanical ventilation. Petrol, diesel and LPG powered
forklifts produce carbon monoxide, but electrically powered forklifts
do not. Only diesel engines emit potentially dangerous particulates.




SAFE WORK PRACTICES

Following the safe work practices below can also reduce exposure to
diesel exhaust:

- Less polluting diesel fuels should be used. These contain lower
levels of sulphur and aromatics. They are more expensive but burn more
cleanly than ordinary diesel.
- All diesel equipment should have regular maintenance and frequent
tune-ups. Badly maintained diesel engines emit far more particles than
well maintained ones. The exhaust system should be checked for leaking
fumes.
- Vehicles should be fitted with emission control devices (air
cleaners), such as collectors, scrubbers, and ceramic particle traps.
Air cleaners should be checked regularly and replaced when they get
dirty.
- Prolonged idling of machinery should be avoided. A worker should not
be in the vehicle when it is idling for a long period.
- Any cracks in the vehicle should be fitted with weather stripping to
prevent fumes from seeping in.
- The floor of the vehicle should not have any holes.



The above strongly implies that:
- diesel exhaust can give rise to CO poisoning if used in a
non-ventilated area with no air intake
- the pollutants in diesel exhaust are a function of fuel quality
- the pollutants in diesel exhaust are a function of proper maintenance
and tuning
- the concentration of pollutants in diesel exhaust increases if the
engine is idling

There is no a priori reason to exclude the possibility that running a
diesel engine in which the operating conditions fulfilled the
conditions above - high sulpher fuel, improperly maintained, improperly
tunes, idling - would result in a situation in which people forced to
breathe the exhaust emitted by the engine in a sealed room with no
other source of ambient air would be exposed to lethal levels of CO
and/or nitrous oxides.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:47 EDT 2001
Article: 926309 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: This forum is hijacked by kooks and trolls.
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 23:06:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , Albrecht Kolthoff
 wrote:

> Blakely wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> >If I am not mistaken and correct me if I am, Treblinka was on German
> >soil.
> 
> I didn't know that "revisionism" as in "alt.revisionism" also refers to
> geographical revisionism.
> 

Treblionka was in German-occupied Poland. Decide for yourserlf whether
that qualifies as German soil.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Thu Jul 19 03:15:48 EDT 2001
Article: 927793 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
Supersedes: <180720011225599054%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 12:48:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 93
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In article <3B551B77.9ED5E92C@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Yosarian wrote:


> > I am always but always amazed at how one lone figure is made to cower
> > by, "organized Jewery". <>
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Organized Jewry certainly fixed Fred Leuchter's wagon.
> 
> Because I cannot peer into Judge Grey's soul, I am not in a position to say
> that he was swayed by what happened to Leuchter, but he could not possibly
> have been unaware of it.
> 
> ==========================================

Leuchter fixed his own wagon by taking on an assignment that he was
incompetent to fulfill. He's the man who represented himself as an
engineer, but had only a BA in history. He's the one who designed and
carried out the absurd forensic and vandalistically illegal examination
at Auschwitz. He's the man who knows so little about cyanide compound
formation that he took the wrong kind of samples. He's the man who,
even though an historian by education, did not bother to read up on the
history of Auschwitz and explains the presence of cyanide compounds on
the structures of a building built in 1943 as the consequence of a
fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic. He's the man who didn't
make it clear to Alpha Labs what it was that he was looking for. He's
the man who made a fool of himself in court with his notorious "I've
never run tests on beetles" remark. He's the man whose "consultation
services" amounted to a shakedown scheme, netting money from prisoners
and penal systems alike. He's the man who claims to be an expert on gas
chambers but doesn't understand the basic and fundamental fact that it
takes far lower concentrations of cyanide maintained within a much
shorter timeframe to kill people than it does to kill vermin. He's the
man who lied about his past clients. He's the man who was disciplined
by the Commonwealth of Massacusetts for professional misrepresentation.
He's the man whose credentials and credibility were found by a Canadian
court to be so weak that he was not permitted to serve as an expert
witness. He's the man whose most famous publication was dismissed as
"scientific garbage" by Robert Jan van Pelt at the Irving vs.
Lipstadt/Penguin Books trial.

Leuchter dug his own grave.

> 
> > >
> > >And this Ms Lipstadt, who clearly prefers attacking opponents from the
> > >safety of a cumputer keyboard, further demonstrated her intrepidity by
> > >exercising her right to decline to be put on the stand. She was wise to
> > >do so. Being publicly cut to ribbons is not an agreeable experience.
> >
> > Irvings case didn't rest upon having lipstadt testify in court.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Oh? He is suing Lipstadt and her publisher for libel and you tell me it would
> not have helped his case in the slightest had he been allowed to put her on
> the stand and eviscerate her -- as he would surely have done. Sorry, mister,
> but your legal analysis leaves much to be desired.
> 
> ==============================================

Libel is, by definition, something that took place in the past. What
Prof. Lipstadt and Penguin Books published has been available for the
world to read for almost ten years. The purpose of the trial was to
determine the truth of Prof. Lipstadt's allegations about David Irving,
and this was demonstrated to the satisfactory of the court by the
expert witnesses on her defense team. Irving was shown to be a
falsifier of history, as alleged by Prof. Lipstandt , something he was
forced to admit quite concretely during the trial by moderating his
position on the issues discussed during the trial, specifically the
facts that, firstly, systematic and large scale gassings of Jews and
others did take place at various camps in Poland, and, secondly, that
Hitler was quite aware of the scope and nature of the Holocaust as it
was taking place.

Why do you think David irving would have cut Prof. Listadt to ribbons
or "eviscerated" her. The transcript of the trial, as well as Irving's
moderation of his position in the light of the evidence provided by
Prof. Lipstadt's team indicate that David Irving rather than Prof.
Lipstadt would have been cut to ribbons and "eviscerated" had Prof. 
Lipstadt, an internationally recognized expert on the Holocaust, gotten
into a verbal exchange with David Irving, who, by his own admission, is
not even a Holocaust scholar or a bona fide historian.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:03 EDT 2001
Article: 928227 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 13:33:00 +0300
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In article <3B56013F.D3F2A3@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> "Richard G. Phillips" wrote:
> 
> > Eugene Holman wrote:


> >
> > =================================
> >
> > > He's the man who knows so little about cyanide compound
> > > formation that he took the wrong kind of samples.
> >
> > =======================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > What was "wrong" about them?
> >
> > =================================


We've been through this.If you are testing for cyanide compounds, you
take scrapings, nit core samples, as Leuchter did. The fact that he did
not know this is just another proof of his engineering incompetence.


> >
> > > He's the man who,
> > > even though an historian by education, did not bother to read up on the
> > > history of Auschwitz and explains the presence of cyanide compounds on
> > > the structures of a building built in 1943 as the consequence of a
> > > fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic.
> >
> > =============================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > It may be worthwhile to state that, at the outset, he BELIEVED that the mass
> > gassings had taken place.
> >
> > If he neglected to clutter his mind with a load of self-serving Nizkor-type
> > crap,
> > then he was wise not to do so.
> >
> > =====================================================

The architectural history of a structure you are making statements
about is not "Nizkor-type crap". You will not be taken seriously if you
attribute the traces of cyanide you found on the walls of a building
built in 1943 to an undocumented, putative fumigation of the premises
which took place during the 1942 typhus epidemic. Leuchter is supposed
to have received some type of academic training as an historian, but
still he made such an obvious gaffe.


> >
> > > He's the man who didn't
> > > make it clear to Alpha Labs what it was that he was looking for.
> >
> > ============================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > A man who has a girlfriend with a breath problem and assures her that she
> > really
> > doesn't have one has told a deliberate untruth. But we do not call him a
> > liar; we
> > call him a tactful and considerate man.
> >
> > A soldier captured in battle who dissembles to enemy intelligence agents
> > has told
> > deliberate untruths. But we do not call him a liar; we call him a brave man
> > who is
> > risking torture to avoid giving the enemy a tactical advantage.
> >
> > Coming back to Leuchter, the source of the samples and the object of the
> > project
> > were none of the lab's  business. THey had neither a technical need to
> > know, a
> > contractual right to know, or a moral claim to know.
> >
> > =========================================================

We've been through this, too. The kinds of tests Leuchter requested
require a different analytical method. You can't make valid
quantitative inferences from a qualitative analysis.


> >
> > > He's
> > > the man who made a fool of himself in court with his notorious "I've
> > > never run tests on beetles" remark.
> >
> > ==============================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > He did not handle himself well in certain phases of the examination. Is
> > that so
> > surprisig? He was up against a man TRAINED to confuse a witness, to break
> > down his
> > composure, to make him end up with egg on his face. Our legal system is an
> > adversarial one which that the object is not to arrive at truth but to
> > obtain
> > victory.
> >
> > Have YOU ever been on a witness stand being grilled publicly. Do you have
> > any idea
> > of the enormous degree of poise, character, and self-possession that are
> > needed to
> > successfully survive a hostile examination by experts trained in that
> > dubious art?
> >
> > ===================================

A man who is serving as an expert witness has some obligation to his
client to have the demeanor of an expert when being cross examined.
Leuchter made himself seem the fool when presenting himself to the
judge and flippantly dismissing the need for any formal training in
engineering to conduct forensic analyses.


> >
> > > He's the man whose "consultation
> > > services" amounted to a shakedown scheme, netting money from prisoners
> > > and penal systems alike.
> >
> > ===================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > No opinionizing, please. Iam not familiar with the methods by which he
> > sought
> > business, yet I am confident that, in the worst possible scenario, they
> > would bear
> > public comparison with the out-and-out lying that takes place in the course
> > of
> > investigations into oil-spill disasters and unsafe cars.
> >
> > ================================

He was offering his services to prisons to change various components in
their electric chairs, and offering his services to prisoners condemned
to death as a consultant who would provide statements that the electric
chairs in the prisons that refused his services were "unsafe", thus
constituting a means of "cruel and unusual punishment".


> >
> > > He's the man who claims to be an expert on gas
> > > chambers
> >
> > ===========================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > An assessment concurred in by both by Missouri warden Bill Armentrout and
> > by the
> > New York Times.
> >
> > ==========================================

He might be an expert on American gas chambers, but he does not
understand that you don't need a lot of bells, whistles, and
electronics to kill people trapped in a room if you have control over
the cotnent of the air they are forced to breathe. He is at most a
competent hands-on man without the slightest understanding of theory.

> >
> > > but doesn't understand the basic and fundamental fact that it
> > > takes far lower concentrations of cyanide maintained within a much
> > > shorter timeframe to kill people than it does to kill vermin.
> >
> > =========================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > And you are telling me that this difference is SO great that it can account
> > for a
> > 1000:1 discrepancy between the concentrations found in the (alleged)
> > execution
> > chambers and those found in the control.
> >
> > Now what you are claiming MIGHT possibly be so, but cannot be taken as fact
> > until
> > we have further experiments to confirm it. Until such further experiments
> > ARE
> > performed, Leuchter's findings continue to stand, not as proof that the
> > gassings
> > never happened, but as evidence casting the gravest doubt on that claim.
> >
> > ==============================================

No further experiments are needed. You can kill a person in 30 minutes
with 150 ppm of cyanide; doubling it to 300 ppm gets the job done in 10
to 15 minutes. For lice you need 15,000 ppm maintained over 18 to 20
hours. That is a difference of several orders of magnitude, and the
conditions under which cyanide compounds will form in these two
remarkably different sets of circumstances are, all other things being
equal, vastly different.


> >
> > > He's the
> > > man who lied about his past clients. He's the man who was disciplined
> > > by the Commonwealth of Massacusetts for professional misrepresentation.
> >
> > ====================================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > I see we're back to the question of who's an engineer.
> >
> > You know I've long been curious about just who it was brought that to the
> > attention
> > of the Massachusetts authorities. Just an ordinary public-spirited citizen,
> > no
> > doubt; no connection with the Jews, of course.
> >
> > ============================================

The case was highly publicized. The Canadian court might have contacted
the State of Massachusetts through official channels, or some people in
the Massachusetts authority that supervises engineers might have read
about. After all, Leuchter's performance did not put the state of
engineering in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in a favorable light.


> > >
> > > He's the man whose credentials and credibility were found by a Canadian
> > > court to be so weak that he was not permitted to serve as an expert
> > > witness.
> >
> > =========================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > Courts --Canadian or American-- would not like to have too close a look-see
> > into
> > how many innocent men they have hanged. Courts are run by people and people
> > are
> > falible and people are corrupt.
> >
> > =============================================

A court has the responsibility to the parties involved in the case to
examine the credentials of a person who is offering testimony as an
expert witness. The court decided, and rightly so, that Leuchter did
not have the credentials or the background to carry out a forensic
examination of the type that he offered which would have any legal
value as a piece of evidence.


> >
> > > He's the man whose most famous publication was dismissed as
> > > "scientific garbage" by Robert Jan van Pelt at the Irving vs.
> > > Lipstadt/Penguin Books trial.
> >
> > ==================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > A self-serving partisan judgement. The same has been said about Van   Pelt.
> >
> > ============================================


> > >
> > > Libel is, by definition, something that took place in the past. What
> > > Prof. Lipstadt and Penguin Books published has been available for the
> > > world to read for almost ten years. The purpose of the trial was to
> > > determine the truth of Prof. Lipstadt's allegations about David Irving,
> > > and this was demonstrated to the satisfactory of the court by the
> > > expert witnesses on her defense team. Irving was shown to be a
> > > falsifier of history
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> What you mean si that he promotes a version of history that is hateful to
> Lipstadt and sundry other tribe members.
> 
> =========================================

No. What I mean is that he is not promoting a version of history at
all. Her is promoting a parody of history.

> 
> > , as alleged by Prof. Lipstandt , something he was
> > > forced to admit quite concretely during the trial by moderating his
> > > position on the issues discussed during the trial
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Just exactly whiuch positions was he forced to    "moderate?" Please be
> detailed about
> this.
> 
> ===============================
> 
> > , specifically the
> > > facts that, firstly, systematic and large scale gassings of Jews and
> > > others did take place at various camps in Poland
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> DOES he actually admit this? Please  give me the quotes.
> 
> ===========================

Gladly:

Source: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/day017.htm


P-179

MR IRVING: My Lord, may I remind you, of course, that I do not
challenge that there gassings at Auschwitz on some scale? It is the
scale that we very much challenge.





Source: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/day006.htm




Q: Can I read what you are reported as having said? You had two things
to do, the first to confirm that you did say it because I do not want
to put words into your mouth, and then second answer a question from me
in consequence if you say yes.
    "Mr Irving is asked whether he denies that Nazis killed a large
number of Jews by unnatural methods including gassing. Answer: That is
a very good question, because obviously we have at the back of our
minds certainly episodes involving gas trucks in Chelmno and things
like that. I have not investigated." Then you say this : "I am prepared
to accept that local Nazis tried bizarre methods of liquidating Jews. I
am quite prepared to accept that, and that they may have experimented
using gas trucks, because I have seen one or two documents in the
archives implying that there was a roll over from the use of those
methods of killing, the same people who created the euthanasia
programme and they may have tried to (something unintelligible) of
killing Jews but it is a very inefficient way of killing people. The
Germans themselves had discovered this and there are much easier ways
of killing people".
    Now, Mr Irving, that has all your great authority as an historian
on an important occasion for you

P-47


behind it, does it not?
A: It does indeed, and I think that is a very fair summary of the state
of my knowledge at that time. Killing people in gas wagons is an
extremely inefficient way of doing it. You will have seen from the
documents they had with the trucks, they broke their axles, the gas
pipe broke.
Q: Sure, but I want you just to look quickly, please ----
A: Also, they had the nasty mess to clear up afterwards.
Q: That is all in Professor Browning's report in fact at page 38.
A: What I said in that part of what you read out is unexceptionable.
Q: It is not, because you did not give the impression, you made it
clear that these were local bizarre experiments and, by implication, on
a very small scale.
A: Well, I think the small scale is something that had to be proven. I
have been proven wrong on that.
Q: What about the one I read you just now? You said a very limited
number.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you are at cross purposes. I think what Mr
Irving is saying is that, if you are suggesting it was on more than a
limited basis at Sobibor and the others, then you must prove it, or at
any rate present the evidence for it. Is that what you meant, Mr
Irving?
A: My Lord, yes. If are talking about six or eight trucks

P-48


then that, to my mind, is a limited scale.
MR RAMPTON: May I just deal with that because that was my next
question. Will you please turn to page 38 of Professor Browning's
report? Since you do not trust his translation, you better also have
----
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we try on Professor Browning without? We may
save the labour of going through ----
MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. This is under the heading Chelmno, my Lord.
I am going to read both these paragraphs.
    "Beginning in December 1941, Jews from the Lodz ghetto and other
towns in the Warthegau were deported to the small village of Chelmno.
On May 1 1942" -- my Lord, we have seen this letter already --"Arthur
Greiser wrote to Himmler: 'The special treatment [sonderbehandlung] of
some 100,000 Jews in my territory in an action approved by you in
agreement with the Chief of the Reich Security Main Office
SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Heydrich will be completed in the next two to
three months." Next paragraph, this is Professor Browning:"The
completion of this task was not without incident, however, as can be
seen in a report in the motor pool section of the RSHA of June 5, 1942,
concerning technical alterations in the production of the'special
trucks.'".
    I, not for reasons of taste but because it is not presently
relevant, am not going to read what the troubles were with the gas
trucks, but I am going to read

P-49


the next indented paragraph.
    "Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed by three
trucks in action, without any defects in the vehicles being
encountered".
A: Shall we go straight to the bottom line and say yes, I fully accept
the innuendo you are placing on that document.
Q: Innuendo?
A: It is not stated clearly, but quite clearly 97,000 people have been
liquidated in these trucks.
Q: In three trucks?
A: Over the months concerned.
Q: No, it is actually just about a month and a week. 97,000 people in
three trucks in the course of five weeks?
A: It is a very substantial achievement when you work it out with a
pocket calculator ----
Q: Clever SS!
A: -- at 20 people per time, and they drove 20 kilometres into the
countryside. I have read all the reports on this.
Q: Not if they are doing them in situ.
A: No. They drove them out into the country and did it and that is
where the axle broke.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it very limited and experimental?
A: My Lord, I did not have this document at the time I said that. I had
this document five or six months ago.

P-50


Q: Answer the question even so. Would you describe it as very limited
and experimental?
A: Not on this scale. This is systematic.
MR RAMPTON: It is systematic, huge scale, using gas trucks to murder
Jews?
A: Yes. No question at all. Can I refer you back to the letter where it
says Greiser writing to Himmler of the special treatment "approved by
you in agreement with Heydrich"? Again, there is no reference to
Hitler, I am afraid.





> 
> > , and, secondly, that
> > > Hitler was quite aware of the scope and nature of the Holocaust as it
> > > was taking place.
> > >
> > > Why do you think David irving would have cut Prof. Listadt to ribbons
> > > or "eviscerated" her. The transcript of the trial, as well as Irving's
> > > moderation of his position in the light of the evidence provided by
> > > Prof. Lipstadt's team indicate that David Irving rather than Prof.
> > > Lipstadt would have been cut to ribbons and "eviscerated" had Prof.
> > > Lipstadt, an internationally recognized expert on the Holocaust, gotten
> > > into a verbal exchange with David Irving
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> If that is the case then why did she decline to be put on the stand when, if
> you are to
> be believed, it would have advantaged her to do so?
> 
> =====================================

It was her right not to take the stand, and it was clear from day one
that Irving was self-destructing.



> 
> > , who, by his own admission, is
> > > not even a Holocaust scholar or a bona fide historian.
> 
> ================================
> Phillips
> 
> I'm a pragmatic sort of guy who attaches vastly more weight to (a) the authorship of 30
> books and (b) the fact that Irving digs out original sources than I do to membership in
> the club that calls themselves "historians" and who maintain their club membership by
> never publishing anything that would be too upsetting to other club members.
> 
> ==============================================

Quantity does not equal quality. Irving digs out original sources, as
do all historians of the modern age. Irving's problem is that he
doesn't read the books or scholarly articles written by other
historians. This means that his perspective is extraordinarily narrow
and that he is shielding himself both from interaction with other minds
and from feedback from people who are supposed to be his peers
concerning his own work. This egotistical "L'histoire, c'est moi"
attitude allowed him to take the Leuchter report at face value, and to
publicly ridicule himself by saying at the Leuchter press conference
that it takes "colossally higher" concentrations of cyanide to kill
people than it does to kill lice:

>From Mr. Ramptions closing remarks at the trial:

Source: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/day032.htm 




Regrads,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:03 EDT 2001
Article: 928275 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
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In article <3B56013F.D3F2A3@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> "Richard G. Phillips" wrote:
> 
> > Eugene Holman wrote:


> >
> > =================================
> >
> > > He's the man who knows so little about cyanide compound
> > > formation that he took the wrong kind of samples.
> >
> > =======================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > What was "wrong" about them?
> >
> > =================================


We've been through this.If you are testing for cyanide compounds, you
take scrapings, not core samples, as Leuchter did. The fact that he did
not know this is just another proof of his engineering incompetence.


> >
> > > He's the man who,
> > > even though an historian by education, did not bother to read up on the
> > > history of Auschwitz and explains the presence of cyanide compounds on
> > > the structures of a building built in 1943 as the consequence of a
> > > fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic.
> >
> > =============================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > It may be worthwhile to state that, at the outset, he BELIEVED that the mass
> > gassings had taken place.
> >
> > If he neglected to clutter his mind with a load of self-serving Nizkor-type
> > crap,
> > then he was wise not to do so.
> >
> > =====================================================

The architectural history of a structure you are making statements
about is not "Nizkor-type crap". You will have zero credibility if you
attribute the traces of cyanide you found on the walls of a building
built in 1943 to an undocumented, putative fumigation of the premises
which took place during the 1942 typhus epidemic. Leuchter is supposed
to have received some type of academic training as an historian, but
still he made such an obvious and easily avoidable gaffe.


> >
> > > He's the man who didn't
> > > make it clear to Alpha Labs what it was that he was looking for.
> >
> > ============================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > A man who has a girlfriend with a breath problem and assures her that she
> > really
> > doesn't have one has told a deliberate untruth. But we do not call him a
> > liar; we
> > call him a tactful and considerate man.
> >
> > A soldier captured in battle who dissembles to enemy intelligence agents
> > has told
> > deliberate untruths. But we do not call him a liar; we call him a brave man
> > who is
> > risking torture to avoid giving the enemy a tactical advantage.
> >
> > Coming back to Leuchter, the source of the samples and the object of the
> > project
> > were none of the lab's  business. THey had neither a technical need to
> > know, a
> > contractual right to know, or a moral claim to know.
> >
> > =========================================================

We've been through this, too. The kinds of tests Leuchter requested
require a different analytical method. You can't make valid
quantitative inferences from a qualitative analysis.


> >
> > > He's
> > > the man who made a fool of himself in court with his notorious "I've
> > > never run tests on beetles" remark.
> >
> > ==============================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > He did not handle himself well in certain phases of the examination. Is
> > that so
> > surprisig? He was up against a man TRAINED to confuse a witness, to break
> > down his
> > composure, to make him end up with egg on his face. Our legal system is an
> > adversarial one which that the object is not to arrive at truth but to
> > obtain
> > victory.
> >
> > Have YOU ever been on a witness stand being grilled publicly. Do you have
> > any idea
> > of the enormous degree of poise, character, and self-possession that are
> > needed to
> > successfully survive a hostile examination by experts trained in that
> > dubious art?
> >
> > ===================================

A man who is serving as an expert witness has some obligation to his
client to have the demeanor of an expert when being cross examined.
Leuchter made himself seem the fool when presenting himself to the
judge and flippantly dismissing the need for any formal training in
engineering or the sciences in general to conduct forensic analyses.


> >
> > > He's the man whose "consultation
> > > services" amounted to a shakedown scheme, netting money from prisoners
> > > and penal systems alike.
> >
> > ===================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > No opinionizing, please. Iam not familiar with the methods by which he
> > sought
> > business, yet I am confident that, in the worst possible scenario, they
> > would bear
> > public comparison with the out-and-out lying that takes place in the course
> > of
> > investigations into oil-spill disasters and unsafe cars.
> >
> > ================================

He was offering his services to prisons to change various components in
their electric chairs, and offering his services to prisoners condemned
to death as a consultant who would provide statements that the electric
chairs in the prisons that refused his services were "unsafe", thus
constituting a means of "cruel and unusual punishment".

> >
> > > He's the man who claims to be an expert on gas
> > > chambers
> >
> > ===========================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > An assessment concurred in by both by Missouri warden Bill Armentrout and
> > by the
> > New York Times.
> >
> > ==========================================

He might be an expert on American gas chambers, but he does not
understand that you don't need a lot of bells, whistles, and
electronics to kill people trapped in a room if you have control over
the content of the air they are forced to breathe. He is at most a
competent hands-on man without the slightest understanding of theory.

> >
> > > but doesn't understand the basic and fundamental fact that it
> > > takes far lower concentrations of cyanide maintained within a much
> > > shorter timeframe to kill people than it does to kill vermin.
> >
> > =========================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > And you are telling me that this difference is SO great that it can account
> > for a
> > 1000:1 discrepancy between the concentrations found in the (alleged)
> > execution
> > chambers and those found in the control.
> >
> > Now what you are claiming MIGHT possibly be so, but cannot be taken as fact
> > until
> > we have further experiments to confirm it. Until such further experiments
> > ARE
> > performed, Leuchter's findings continue to stand, not as proof that the
> > gassings
> > never happened, but as evidence casting the gravest doubt on that claim.
> >
> > ==============================================

No further experiments are needed. You can kill a person in 30 minutes
with 150 ppm of cyanide; doubling it to 300 ppm gets the job done in 10
to 15 minutes. For lice you need 15,000 ppm maintained over 18 to 20
hours. That is a difference of several orders of magnitude, and the
conditions under which cyanide compounds will form in these two
remarkably divergent sets of circumstances are, all other things being
equal, vastly different.


> >
> > > He's the
> > > man who lied about his past clients. He's the man who was disciplined
> > > by the Commonwealth of Massacusetts for professional misrepresentation.
> >
> > ====================================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > I see we're back to the question of who's an engineer.
> >
> > You know I've long been curious about just who it was brought that to the
> > attention
> > of the Massachusetts authorities. Just an ordinary public-spirited citizen,
> > no
> > doubt; no connection with the Jews, of course.
> >
> > ============================================

The case was highly publicized. The Canadian court might have contacted
the State of Massachusetts through official channels, or some people in
the Massachusetts authority that supervises engineers might have read
about it. After all, Leuchter's performance did not put the state of
engineering in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in a favorable light.


> > >
> > > He's the man whose credentials and credibility were found by a Canadian
> > > court to be so weak that he was not permitted to serve as an expert
> > > witness.
> >
> > =========================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > Courts --Canadian or American-- would not like to have too close a look-see
> > into
> > how many innocent men they have hanged. Courts are run by people and people
> > are
> > falible and people are corrupt.
> >
> > =============================================

A court has the responsibility to the parties involved in the case to
examine the credentials of a person who is offering testimony as an
expert witness. The court decided, and rightly so, that Leuchter did
not have the credentials or the background to carry out a forensic
examination of the type that he offered which would have any legal
value as a piece of evidence.


> >
> > > He's the man whose most famous publication was dismissed as
> > > "scientific garbage" by Robert Jan van Pelt at the Irving vs.
> > > Lipstadt/Penguin Books trial.
> >
> > ==================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > A self-serving partisan judgement. The same has been said about Van   Pelt.
> >
> > ============================================


> > >
> > > Libel is, by definition, something that took place in the past. What
> > > Prof. Lipstadt and Penguin Books published has been available for the
> > > world to read for almost ten years. The purpose of the trial was to
> > > determine the truth of Prof. Lipstadt's allegations about David Irving,
> > > and this was demonstrated to the satisfactory of the court by the
> > > expert witnesses on her defense team. Irving was shown to be a
> > > falsifier of history
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> What you mean si that he promotes a version of history that is hateful to
> Lipstadt and sundry other tribe members.
> 
> =========================================

No. What I mean is that he is not promoting a version of history at
all. Her is promoting a parody of history.

> 
> > , as alleged by Prof. Lipstandt , something he was
> > > forced to admit quite concretely during the trial by moderating his
> > > position on the issues discussed during the trial
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Just exactly whiuch positions was he forced to    "moderate?" Please be
> detailed about
> this.
> 
> ===============================
> 
> > , specifically the
> > > facts that, firstly, systematic and large scale gassings of Jews and
> > > others did take place at various camps in Poland
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> DOES he actually admit this? Please  give me the quotes.
> 
> ===========================

Gladly:

Source: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/day017.htm


P-179

MR IRVING: My Lord, may I remind you, of course, that I do not
challenge that there gassings at Auschwitz on some scale? It is the
scale that we very much challenge.





Source: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/day006.htm




Q: Can I read what you are reported as having said? You had two things
to do, the first to confirm that you did say it because I do not want
to put words into your mouth, and then second answer a question from me
in consequence if you say yes.
    "Mr Irving is asked whether he denies that Nazis killed a large
number of Jews by unnatural methods including gassing. Answer: That is
a very good question, because obviously we have at the back of our
minds certainly episodes involving gas trucks in Chelmno and things
like that. I have not investigated." Then you say this : "I am prepared
to accept that local Nazis tried bizarre methods of liquidating Jews. I
am quite prepared to accept that, and that they may have experimented
using gas trucks, because I have seen one or two documents in the
archives implying that there was a roll over from the use of those
methods of killing, the same people who created the euthanasia
programme and they may have tried to (something unintelligible) of
killing Jews but it is a very inefficient way of killing people. The
Germans themselves had discovered this and there are much easier ways
of killing people".
    Now, Mr Irving, that has all your great authority as an historian
on an important occasion for you

P-47


behind it, does it not?
A: It does indeed, and I think that is a very fair summary of the state
of my knowledge at that time. Killing people in gas wagons is an
extremely inefficient way of doing it. You will have seen from the
documents they had with the trucks, they broke their axles, the gas
pipe broke.
Q: Sure, but I want you just to look quickly, please ----
A: Also, they had the nasty mess to clear up afterwards.
Q: That is all in Professor Browning's report in fact at page 38.
A: What I said in that part of what you read out is unexceptionable.
Q: It is not, because you did not give the impression, you made it
clear that these were local bizarre experiments and, by implication, on
a very small scale.
A: Well, I think the small scale is something that had to be proven. I
have been proven wrong on that.
Q: What about the one I read you just now? You said a very limited
number.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: No, I think you are at cross purposes. I think what Mr
Irving is saying is that, if you are suggesting it was on more than a
limited basis at Sobibor and the others, then you must prove it, or at
any rate present the evidence for it. Is that what you meant, Mr
Irving?
A: My Lord, yes. If are talking about six or eight trucks

P-48


then that, to my mind, is a limited scale.
MR RAMPTON: May I just deal with that because that was my next
question. Will you please turn to page 38 of Professor Browning's
report? Since you do not trust his translation, you better also have
----
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Shall we try on Professor Browning without? We may
save the labour of going through ----
MR RAMPTON: I quite agree. This is under the heading Chelmno, my Lord.
I am going to read both these paragraphs.
    "Beginning in December 1941, Jews from the Lodz ghetto and other
towns in the Warthegau were deported to the small village of Chelmno.
On May 1 1942" -- my Lord, we have seen this letter already --"Arthur
Greiser wrote to Himmler: 'The special treatment [sonderbehandlung] of
some 100,000 Jews in my territory in an action approved by you in
agreement with the Chief of the Reich Security Main Office
SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Heydrich will be completed in the next two to
three months." Next paragraph, this is Professor Browning:"The
completion of this task was not without incident, however, as can be
seen in a report in the motor pool section of the RSHA of June 5, 1942,
concerning technical alterations in the production of the'special
trucks.'".
    I, not for reasons of taste but because it is not presently
relevant, am not going to read what the troubles were with the gas
trucks, but I am going to read

P-49


the next indented paragraph.
    "Since December 1941, for example, 97,000 were processed by three
trucks in action, without any defects in the vehicles being
encountered".
A: Shall we go straight to the bottom line and say yes, I fully accept
the innuendo you are placing on that document.
Q: Innuendo?
A: It is not stated clearly, but quite clearly 97,000 people have been
liquidated in these trucks.
Q: In three trucks?
A: Over the months concerned.
Q: No, it is actually just about a month and a week. 97,000 people in
three trucks in the course of five weeks?
A: It is a very substantial achievement when you work it out with a
pocket calculator ----
Q: Clever SS!
A: -- at 20 people per time, and they drove 20 kilometres into the
countryside. I have read all the reports on this.
Q: Not if they are doing them in situ.
A: No. They drove them out into the country and did it and that is
where the axle broke.
MR JUSTICE GRAY: Is it very limited and experimental?
A: My Lord, I did not have this document at the time I said that. I had
this document five or six months ago.

P-50


Q: Answer the question even so. Would you describe it as very limited
and experimental?
A: Not on this scale. This is systematic.
MR RAMPTON: It is systematic, huge scale, using gas trucks to murder
Jews?
A: Yes. No question at all. Can I refer you back to the letter where it
says Greiser writing to Himmler of the special treatment "approved by
you in agreement with Heydrich"? Again, there is no reference to
Hitler, I am afraid.





> 
> > , and, secondly, that
> > > Hitler was quite aware of the scope and nature of the Holocaust as it
> > > was taking place.
> > >
> > > Why do you think David irving would have cut Prof. Listadt to ribbons
> > > or "eviscerated" her. The transcript of the trial, as well as Irving's
> > > moderation of his position in the light of the evidence provided by
> > > Prof. Lipstadt's team indicate that David Irving rather than Prof.
> > > Lipstadt would have been cut to ribbons and "eviscerated" had Prof.
> > > Lipstadt, an internationally recognized expert on the Holocaust, gotten
> > > into a verbal exchange with David Irving
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> If that is the case then why did she decline to be put on the stand when, if
> you are to
> be believed, it would have advantaged her to do so?
> 
> =====================================

It was her right not to take the stand, and it was clear from day one
that Irving was self-destructing.



> 
> > , who, by his own admission, is
> > > not even a Holocaust scholar or a bona fide historian.
> 
> ================================
> Phillips
> 
> I'm a pragmatic sort of guy who attaches vastly more weight to (a) the authorship of 30
> books and (b) the fact that Irving digs out original sources than I do to membership in
> the club that calls themselves "historians" and who maintain their club membership by
> never publishing anything that would be too upsetting to other club members.
> 
> ==============================================

Quantity does not equal quality. Irving digs out original sources, as
do all historians of the modern age. Irving's problem is that he
doesn't read the books or scholarly articles written by other
historians. This means that his perspective is extraordinarily narrow
and that he is shielding himself both from interaction with other minds
and from feedback from people who are supposed to be his peers
concerning his own work. This egotistical "L'histoire, c'est moi"
attitude allowed him to take the Leuchter report at face value, and to
publicly ridicule himself by saying at the Leuchter press conference
that it takes "colossally higher" concentrations of cyanide to kill
people than it does to kill lice:

>From Mr. Rampton's closing remarks at the trial:

Source: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/day032.htm 




Regrads,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:04 EDT 2001
Article: 928338 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
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In article <3B55B214.9ABAB217@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B551B77.9ED5E92C@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > Yosarian wrote:
> >
> > > > I am always but always amazed at how one lone figure is made to cower
> > > > by, "organized Jewery". <>
> > >
> > > ==========================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > Organized Jewry certainly fixed Fred Leuchter's wagon.
> > >
> > > Because I cannot peer into Judge Grey's soul, I am not in a position to
> > > say
> > > that he was swayed by what happened to Leuchter, but he could not possibly
> > > have been unaware of it.
> > >
> > > ==========================================
> >
> > Leuchter fixed his own wagon by taking on an assignment that he was
> > incompetent to fulfill.
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Facts are one thing; opinionizing quite another. Let's try to stick to facts.
> 
> =================================
> 
> > He's the man who represented himself as an
> > engineer, but had only a BA in history.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> THis has been gone over and over and over. In Europe you are not an engineer
> until
> you have a document from your government stating that you are one. In America
> you
> are engineer just as soon as there is an employer who hires you in that
> capacity or
> a client who engages you in that capacity.
> 
> Credentialitis is a gimmick for protecting turf; nothing more.

It's not that simple and you know it. As long as an "engineer" is
performing tasks that do not require him to issue legal certifications
he can practice as an engineer in certain states. The Massachusetts
board supervising engineers disciplined Leuchter and stated quite
clearly what he could and could not do owing to the fact that he was
not a certified engineer. 

The bottom line is that a non-certified engineer would not be allowed
to provide expert witness as an engineer in a court trial in which the
rights of both the plaintiff and the defendant have to be respected
under the laws of Massachusetts, Canada, or, I strongly suspect,
anywhere else. Otherwise any charlatan off the street could be dragged
in as an "expert witness" on anything.

> 
> 
> > He's the one who designed and
> > carried out the absurd forensic and vandalistically illegal examination
> > at Auschwitz.
> 
> ====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Absurd? What do you find absurd about what he did?
>
> =================================

Read the Irving vs. Lipstadt/Benguin Books transcripts to find out
about the numerous errors of methodology and detail.

>From Mr. Rampton's closing remarks at the trial:

Source: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/day032.htm 




> ====================================================
> Phillips
>
> Vandalistic? I do not concede any "right" of any Polish government to declare
> as
> aff-limits to researchers an area/structure/artifact the investigation of
> which may
> yield vital clues on certain historical events.
> 
> =================================

So, you're the kind of guy who would visit a museum in a foreign
country with a hammer and chisel and start defacing the exhibits? That
is, after all, what Leuchter did. If he had gotten caught, he would
have been arrested and jailed. And not because the Polish government
had anything to hide, but rather because what Leuchter did was simply
vandalism.
 
> > He's the man who knows so little about cyanide compound
> > formation that he took the wrong kind of samples.
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> What was "wrong" about them?
> 
> =================================

You don't take core samples to detect the presence and density of
cyanide samples, you take scraping samples.


> 
> > He's the man who,
> > even though an historian by education, did not bother to read up on the
> > history of Auschwitz and explains the presence of cyanide compounds on
> > the structures of a building built in 1943 as the consequence of a
> > fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It may be worthwhile to state that, at the outset, he BELIEVED that the mass
> gassings had taken place.

That's not the point. The point is that he attributed the presence of
cyanide on the walls to a glaringly impossible historical event.
The Auschwitz typhus epidemic took place in 1942. Construction of Krema
II was not begun until early 1943, with the facility being opened for
business on March 31 of the same year. Both of these dates could have
been checked at the Auschwitz museum or by referring to any of the
standard histories of the camp. As it turned out, Leuchter attributed
the presence of cyanide on the walls and in the ventilation systems to
an historically impossible event: a fumigation of a building at a time
when it existed only as an architectural plan.


> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It may be worthwhile to state that, at the outset, he BELIEVED that the mass
> gassings had taken place.
> If he neglected to clutter his mind with a load of self-serving Nizkor-type
> crap,
> then he was wise not to do so.
> 
> =====================================================

No, he was incredibly stupid in not making the effort to find out the
basic facts about the architectural history of the building he was
analyzing. This is justfurther proof of his total incompetence.
Moreover, it leaves open the question of the origin of the cyanide
compounds on the walls and ih the ventilation systems. If the building
was *not* fumigated, "once, long ago", during the 1942 typhus epidemic,
why were cyanide compounds found in precisely the same areas of the
building which all other historical evidence and forensic analyses
indicate once housed gas chambers?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:04 EDT 2001
Article: 928415 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
Supersedes: <190720011955190573%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2001 19:59:19 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B56EE4E.327A6426@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:


> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Leuchter obtained consulting work in other states. That work would never have
> been
> given to him without a check with the Mass authorities as to his bonafides.
> Therefore, the Mass authorities must necessarily have KNOWN that he did not
> have
> their kosher label, so they could not have considered tthe matter of much
> importance.
> 
> But, when somebody comes, lays the thing in their laps, and threatens to make
> a
> public stink about it, they HAVE to act.
> 
> Do you now begit to see what I mean when I speak of Jewish power.
> 
> =====================================================

Leuchter appeared at a trial as an "expert witness", but even a
superficial examination of his background and credentials revealed that
he was unqualified to appear in that capacity. He compounded the damage
by making statements that revealed the depth of his ignorance. Rather
than "the Jews" foaming at the mouth over this, I would expect the
Canadian legal authorities to inform the Mass authorities that a person
lacking the proper competence had tried to appear as an expert witness
at a Canadian trial, but had been shown to be a charlatan. You should
also know that many organizations monitor the press to see what is
being written about them. The Massachusetts organ suoervising engineers
would be derelict of its duties had it not found out about Leuchter's
debacle in Toronto using its own monitoring services.


> > Read the Irving vs. Lipstadt/Benguin Books transcripts to find out
> > about the numerous errors of methodology and detail.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> (Alleged) "errors of methodology" are one thing; absurdity is quite another.
> Kindly
> elucidate.

A report that attributes the presence of cyanide compounds in a
structure to a fumigation which took place before the structure was
even fully designed, not to mention built, is deeply into the realm of
absurdity. A gas chamber expert wannabe who thinks that it takes
"colossally more" cyanide to kill warm-blooded humans than it does to
kill cold-blooded lice is incompetent to the point of absurdity.


> =====================================
> Phillips
>
> I've said it a dozen times. If the Jews are not happy about Leuchter's
> findings,
> there is nothing preventing them from sending in a team of their own and
> getting
> results they like better.
> 
> Caraping is easy; doing is harder.
> 
> =====================================

I've said it as many times as you have. The IFRC report addresses the
issues properly and, amazingly, produces numbers which are not all that
different from those Leuchter produced. 


> >
> > From Mr. Rampton's closing remarks at the trial:
> >
> > Source: http://www2.prestel.co.uk/littleton/day032.htm
> > 
> >  >  The Leuchter report (as Mr Irving has accepted during this trial) was
> > riddled with numerous errors of various kinds, but this error was
> > colossal. As the material contained in the Leuchter report itself
> > showed, the concentration of hydrogen cyanide required to kill humans
> > is, in fact, some 22 times lower than that required to kill lice. Thus,
> > so far from disproving the existence of homicidal gas chambers at
> > Auschwitz, the Leuchter Report actually succeeded in proving the
> > opposite.
> 
> ==============================
> Phillips
> 
> You're talking nonsense.
> 
> =================

Check your reading comprehension. I am not the source of this
statement; this is an excerpt from Mr Rampton's closing remarks at the
Irving vs. Lipstadt/Penguin Books trial.


> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> I repeat that I do not concede the right of any Polish government to declare
> those
> places off limits.
> 
> ================================================

So, you wouldn't mind if I sent a team of my boys to dig up JFK's body
to see whether he really was shot?

> 
> > If he had gotten caught, he would
> > have been arrested and jailed. And not because the Polish government
> > had anything to hide, but rather because what Leuchter did was simply
> > vandalism.
> 
> ================================
> Phillips
> 
> You can get arrested for a lot of things in Poland, both Communist Poland and
> post-Communist Poland.
> 
> ==================================

You certainly can. You can and will be arrested in any country for
vandalizing museums.

>

> >
> > You don't take core samples to detect the presence and density of
> > cyanide samples, you take scraping samples.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Why/
> 
> =======================

Because cyanide forms compounds on the surfaces of concrete walls.


> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Well, asuming I were to take your dates at face value (which, I hasten to
> assure
> you, I do not) the fact remains that cyanide traces WERE found on those walls
> and in
> very heavy concentrations and have to be accounted for. How do YOU account
> for them.
> 
> ==============================

When was the typhus epidemic at Auschwitz? When was Krema II built?


> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Carping after the fact is easy; doing is much harder. The world has no
> shortage of
> carpers. When you don't like somebody's results there will ALWAYS be nits you
> can
> pick about his "methodology."
> 
> =====================================

As I've said before, there is nothing wrong with Leuchter's numbers. Mr
Rampton stated at the Irving vs. Lipstadt/Penguin Books trial that they
stand as evidence in favor rather than against the Holocaust. The
problem is that they were obtained using unscientific methods, for
which reason they do not stand up to scrutiny.

> 
> > This is justfurther proof of his total incompetence.
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Note the hyperbole. It is not enough that Leuchter be accused of MERE
> incompetence;
> he has to be accused of TOTAL incompetence.
> 
> =====================================

He *was* totally incompetent.
- A "gas chamber expert" who thinks that all gas chambers in existence
have to be analogous to American gas chambers in form and function.
- A "gas chamber expert" who thinks that it is easier to kill lice with
cyanide than it is to kill people.
- A "gas chamber expert" who assumes that any gas chamber has to be a
hi-tech device.

> > Moreover, it leaves open the question of the origin of the cyanide
> > compounds on the walls and ih the ventilation systems.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Yes it does; doesn't it."
> 
> =====================

All available historical evidence indicates that the cyanide compunds
are there because the premises in question were being used as gas
chambers to kill Jews.
> 
> > If the building
> > was *not* fumigated, "once, long ago", during the 1942 typhus epidemic,
> > why were cyanide compounds found in precisely the same areas of the
> > building which all other historical evidence and forensic analyses
> > indicate once housed gas chambers?
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> Well I imagine he was going by what the guides had been telling the weeping tourisi
> for decades. "This was the fumigation chamber; that was the execution chamber." Were
> they lying?
> 
> ===========================================

Why should they have lied?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:04 EDT 2001
Article: 928971 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 09:26:08 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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Message-ID: <200720010926085699%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B579B9E.80665CAB@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> > Lipstadt chickened out? Talk about "revisionism"!  If she did NOT have
> > the courage of her convictions, she would not have proceeded to defend
> > herself against David  Irving's libel suit.
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> She had two choices.  Either fight the suit or elso cave in under terms that
> would
> not only have been personally humiliating but would have forever destroyed her
> credibility and even rendered her persona non grata in Holocaustia. She
> probobly
> figured it would be better to go down fighting than suffer THAT. Besides,
> with the
> megabeck legal staff paid fo by her brethren, she probably figured she had at
> least
> an even chance.

Wait a minute! The suit was brought by David Irving for things that
Prof. Lipstadt had written about him. Her defense team did the
necessary work and demonstrated to the satisfaction of the court that
what she had written about David Irving was indeed true. Irving's
behavior in the court, particularly his trotting out the old
"Ausrottung" gambit and his absurd concession that the structures at
Auschwitz-Birkenau were indeed "gas chambers", but, in clear violation
of both logic and the construction plans with their modifications
produced by Prof. van Pelt, gas chambers for gassing "cadavers and
objects", proved to judge Gray and anyone else following the case that
he was a "falsifier of history", or, in street language, a bullshit
artist.

Prof. Lipstadt didn't go into the trial with an even chance; there is
no way in hell she could have lost, given the charges and the defense
of the man who had a fool as a lawyer.


> ===============================================
> Phillips
>
> No m'dear: that fact that she refused to be put on the stand informs that she
> did
> not have the courage of her convictions.
> 
> =========================================================

Nonsense. Prof. Lipstadt's all-star defense team proved to the
satisfaction of the court that her characterization of Irving had been
correct rather than libelous, that he had been foolish to bring charges
of libel against her, and that he had compounded his foolishness by
lacking the good sense to avail himself of the services of competent
legal counsel. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:05 EDT 2001
Article: 928991 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!195.54.122.107!newsfeed1.bredband.com!bredband!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving Loses
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 12:28:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 33
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In article , Hilary Ostrov
 wrote:

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1448000/1448417.stm
> 
> 
> Friday, 20 July, 2001, 08:43 GMT 09:43 UK 
> BREAKING NEWS
> 
> Irving loses libel appeal
> 
> Controversial historian David Irving has lost his appeal against a
> High Court libel ruling which branded him a "Holocaust denier". 
> 
> Mr Irving was left facing a £2m bill after his defeat in April last
> year. 
> 
> The case centred on US academic Deborah Lipstadt and publishers
> Penguin Books over the 1994 book, Denying the Holocaust: The Growing
> Assault on Truth and Memory. 
> 
> At the original trial Mr Justice Gray dubbed Mr Irving "an active
> Holocaust denier; that he is anti-Semitic and racist and that he
> associates with right wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism". 
> 
> More follows... 
> 
>
Thanks for posting this. The entire article is worth reading for anyone
with any residual sympathy for David Irving.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:05 EDT 2001
Article: 929003 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.flame.niggers,balt.general,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why have Jews been hated?
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 15:20:01 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <200720011520018108%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B57B4BA.C7200517@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Once upon a time successful peopl were an inspiration to the rest of us. Today
> they are only an irritant. And if they are conspicuously successful, they are
> doubly an irritant. And if they flaunt the fact of their good fortune in the
> faces of the rest of us then they become trebly an irritant. And if, on top of
> all THAT, they are a people who, while American in a narrow legal sense, are
> not
> and never will be American in the full moral, cultural, and emotional sense 
> --
> then it becomes permissible to ask why they should be permitted to remain in
> this country.
> 
> ===========================

Not all Jews are successful. You have the full spectrum among the Jews,
running from multimillionaire to pauper, just as you do among other
minorities and the majority as well.

> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> The author of this screed tells us that he has a formula for success. We are
> to
> get an "education."  It has no doubt escaped his attention that today there
> are
> thousands and thousands of people who got an education yet stand in the
> unemployment lines.
> 
> ==================================

Nevertheless, unemployment in the US is currently running at about 4%
which, in a capitalist society, means virtually full employment. The
fact that living on unemployment benefits or welfare in the US means a
very low standard of living, while millionaires pay relatively low
taxes, is a consequence of decisions the American people have made
about how the swag is to be divied up. In Sweden, with lower wages and
higher taxes, the fat cats are leaner, but people living on
unemployment or welfare benefits can maintain a middle-class lifestyle.

An education is not a guarantee of employment anywhere, and a person
has to upgrade his/her skills to remain employable. Think of all the
computer science majors who studied Basic and Pascal and learned how to
program the Zilog-80 twenty years ago. If they have not bothered to
follow developments in the field, their hard-acquired skills are
worthless today. Generally speaking, the countries that invest most in
education and relentless technical development have the highest
standards of living, but not necessarily the lowest rates of
unemployment. For the time being, the United States, a country of
immigration rather than emigration, benefits from the fact that the
many immigrants (few of whom are Jews) that enter the country and work
at high-paying jobs begin paying taxes into the economy, but, having
been educated by the taxes paid by people in other countries, are
socially "cheap" from the standpoint of the American economy.
Statistics I've seen claim that the social costs of educating bringing
up a child up to the age when he/she becomes a taxpayer is on the order
a million dollars.

You never followed me up on our discussion about which country in the
world has a higher standard of living than the US. I take that as a
concession that Sweden, where people have, on the average, about 60% of
the buying power that Americans have and where taxes, including a 25%
value-added tax on all non-food purchases, take more than 60% of your
earnings, and 10% unemployment, is not in the running.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:05 EDT 2001
Article: 929017 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
Supersedes: <200720011219316755%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 16:47:16 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B57B8CC.6A828FB5@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> >
> > Wait a minute! The suit was brought by David Irving for things that
> > Prof. Lipstadt had written about him. Her defense team did the
> > necessary work and demonstrated to the satisfaction of the court that
> > what she had written about David Irving was indeed true. Irving's
> > behavior in the court, particularly his trotting out the old
> > "Ausrottung" gambit and his absurd concession that the structures at
> > Auschwitz-Birkenau were indeed "gas chambers", but, in clear violation
> > of both logic and the construction plans with their modifications
> > produced by Prof. van Pelt, gas chambers for gassing "cadavers and
> > objects", proved to judge Gray and anyone else following the case that
> > he was a "falsifier of history", or, in street language, a bullshit
> > artist.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I want you to tell me all about those "construction plans." How detailed are
> they?

Detailed enough for the building to have been built and for cyanide to
have been used in certain parts of it. See
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/k2-construct-docs-
01.html,
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/k2-construct-docs-
02.html

which has several documents which you can expand to screen size as well
as explanations of their provenance and significance. Most of the
material is from Dwork and van Pelt's _Auschwitz: 1270 to the Present_,
1996.

> Do they show all the ducting, the piping, the exhaust fans, the sealing and
> venting?

They don't show every detail, but that's really an irrelevant point. 

1. You might like to read the point-by-point rebuttal of Leuchter's
claims, actually unfounded speculation, concerning ventilation, exhaust
fans, and other safety features at
http://www.davenportlyons.com/download/section3.pdf .

2. Nobody denies that cyanide in lethal concentrations was used in
certain areas of the buildings in question, for which reason they must
have been constructed in such a manner as to make such use possible,
controlable, and practical.

> 
> How can we prove where they came from.

German law required that construction documents be deposited in several
archives. Even though some were ordered destroyed, and the documents
were compiled so that they would not reveal criminal intent, building
the structures generated a paper trail, much of which can be
reconstructed.


> 
> If they are of any validity, then why is ti that Jeffrey Brown was able to do
> no
> more than sputter with rage when I demanded just that from him.
> 
> ============================

You are the one who has sputtered with rage because the documents don't
come unform to your standards and you are unfamiliar with the cultural
tradition that produced them. Nevertheless:
1. the buildings were built
2. traces of cyanide have been found in the parts of the building
alleged to have housed gas chambers as well as in the ventilation
systems serving them.
3. all other historical evidence indicates that the buildings housed
gas chambers that were used for mass gassings of people sent to
Auschwitz.

Despite the fact that Leuchter did find cyanide traces on the walls, he
made his assessment primarily on his experiences with American gas
chambers, which which on totally different assumptions than a Nazi mass
execution gas chamber:

Source: http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/vanix.asp


[Pearson ]:";What other -what are the other foundations for your
conclusion?" 

 [Leuchter ]:";The other foundations are that the facilities that I
looked at were physically  not designed and could not have been
operations as gas chambers." 


 Q.:";And what do you rely on for that conclusion?" 


 A.:";I rely on my knowledge of gas chamber construction and design." 


 Q.:";So you rely on your knowledge and experience as somebody
constructing gas  chambers in the United States for the purposes of
executing one person as  humanly as possible with as less danger to
other people as possible." 


 A.:";Partially." 


 Q.:";Well,that's your only experience,isn 't it?" 


 A.:";It's my only experience at constructing gas chambers.I don 't
believe anyone has had  any experience constructing larger gas chambers
that took more than two people.But,the-" 


 Q.:";Did you read the testimony of the commandant of Auschwitz,Rudolf
Höss?" 


 A.:";I did." 


 Q.:";Okay.So,you 've told us about your experience and you said that
the hydrogen  traces account for ten percent of your conclusion. What
per cent of your conclusion is your  experience in the construction of
modern gas chambers?" 


 A.:";Twenty,maybe thirty percent." 


 Q.:";Okay.What else is there then,please?" 


 A.:";Good engineering design in terms of building structure,air moving
equipment,  plumbing equipment that would be utilized to handle the air
and mechanical equipment  that would be utilized to introduce gas and
gas carriers into a structure." 


 Q.:";And what percentage of your opinion is based on that?" 


 A.:";Fifty or sixty percent." 


 Q.:";And that is all based on the assumption that the physical plant
presently at that  location in Poland is what was there in 1942,'43,'44
and '45.Is that right?" 


 A.:";That is correct."9 




> >
> > Prof. Lipstadt didn't go into the trial with an even chance; there is
> > no way in hell she could have lost, given the charges and the defense
> > of the man who had a fool as a lawyer.
> 
> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> If so, this demolishes Hilary Ostrov's claim that Lipstadt showed great
> courage in
> fighting the suit.
> 

I would disagree with Hilary Ostrov on that point. It was like fishing
in a barrel. It was a vanity suit, brought by David Irving as a chance
to make headlines for himself.


> > Nonsense. Prof. Lipstadt's all-star defense team proved to the
> > satisfaction of the court that her characterization of Irving had been
> > correct rather than libelous, that he had been foolish to bring charges
> > of libel against her, and that he had compounded his foolishness by
> > lacking the good sense to avail himself of the services of competent
> > legal counsel.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> And yet she refused to be put on the stand even though, if you are to be believed,
> she would have risked nothing by doing so. It just might be that she saw risks you
> did not.
> 
> ====================================

I've never claimed to be omniscient, but I cannot see any possible risk
she would have faced by testifying. It was a libel trial based on her
past writings. Her defense team proved that her characterizations of
David Irving as a liar, manipulator of evidence, and falsifier of
history were based on a careful assessment of David Irving's writing
and methodology as of the time her writings were published. David
Irving, who didn't need to testify but insisted on running his mouth
for every day of the more than month-long trial, provided the court
with additional evidence that he remains a liar, manipulator of
evidence, and falsifier of history.

Irving's conversion to Holocaust denial is a consequence of his having
read the Leuchter Report. Let's just consider once again why Leuchter's
report was not admitted as evidence by the Canadian court:


Sourcde: http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/evidence/vanix.asp


Q.:";And I want to ask you about your answer to me.I said it takes a
higher concentration  of hydrogen cyanide to exterminate insects than
it does to kill human beings. You said no.  We go to the Degesch manual
and it says that it requires twenty times as much to kill beetles  as
to kill rats and it takes three times as much to kill rats [than ] it
does to kill humans.." 


 A.:";Maybe it depends upon the insects.Most of the work that I 've
been looking at,  they 've been killing lice and ticks.And their
recommendation for general fumigation  purposes is three thousand per
million." 


 Q.:";What is twenty times 833 parts per million?"  290 


 A.:";What is twenty times 833 parts per million?" 


 Q.:";Right." 


 A.:";16,600." 


 Q.:";16,600.So what Degesch are saying,the people who make the
product,is that if you  want to kill beetles,you should have a
concentration of -of what,sir?" 


 A.:";16,600,apparently." 


 Q.:";Right,And it takes three hundred parts per million to kill a
human being in a matters  of minutes?" 


 A.:";Or more." 


 Q.:";In a matter of minutes." 


 A.:";Twenty minutes,fifteen minutes,yes." 


 Q.:";Right.And here they 're talking about a time of exposure from 2
to 72 hours,right?" 


 A.:";Right." 

 Q,:";Now,you gave us as a conclusion about the danger of
explosion,didn 't you?" 


 A.:";Yes." 


 Q.:";This was a big factor in your mind,this possibility of
explosion.Did you look at the  Degesch manual when it talked about
inflammability?" 


 A.:";I 'm looking at it now,counsellor." 


 Q.:";Page five?" 


 A.:";Yes." 


 Q.:";'Liquid HCN,-"" that is hydrocyanic acid,,right?" 


 A.:";Correct." 


 Q.:"; ' . . . Burns like alcohol. Aaseous [H]CN forms an explosive
mixture with air under certain  conditions. The lower explosion limit,
however, lies far above the concentration used in practical  fumigation
work.-"" So,,they tell us that if we 're going to exterminate
beetles,we have to have a  concentration of 16,600 and they tell us if
we have a concentration of 16,600,the lower  explosion limit lies far
above that concentration." 


 A.:";The lower explosion limit is six per cent." 


 Q.:";And what's six percent?" 

 A,:";Six thousand." 

 Q,:";Isn 't it sixty thousand,sir?" 


 A.:";Correct.Sixty thousand." 


 Q.:";Sixty thousand parts per million of air.Right?" 


 A.:";Correct,but you must understand that at the Zyklon-B
material,when the gas is  being given off,you have a percentage per
volume of air of ninety to one hundred per cent.  That means you have
almost pure hydrogen cyanide at the carrier." 


 Q.:";At the point where the Zyklon-B is vapourizing,I agree,you have a
ninety-nine per  cent concentration level.But how far did you tell us
these ovens were from the chamber we  are talking about?" 


 A.:";150,160 feet." 


 Q.:";And doesn 't gas diffuse,sir?" 


 A.:";It may or it may not." 


 Q.:";And what would its concentration be 150 or 160 feet away?" 


 A.:";I have no idea and no one could answer that question for you." 


 Q.:";Right,you don 't know,do you?" 


 A.:";Most people would tell you it's very dangerous."14 



Leuchter was drawing conclusions about a substance he knew almost
nothing about. 

You asked yesterday about why his sampling technique was incorrect:

Source: ibid


Perhaps the most damning aspect of Leuchter's investigation is the way
he took the samples.I  have studied carefully the videotapes which were
made of his trip to Poland,and which clearly show  that Leuchter took
what were for the analysis of cyanide content incorrect samples.When
the Alpha  laboratories analyzed the cyanide content of the
samples,they provided the measurements of the  total cyanide
concentration in each of the samples.It did not provide the
concentration of cyanide  on the outer surface of the samples.As Dr.Jim
Roth,who analyzed the samples in 1988,explained  recently to the
American film maker Errol Morris,";hindsight being 20/20,the test was
not the  correct one to have used for the analysis."66 Roth explained
that cyanide will react on the surface of  brick or plaster,penetrating
the material not more than 10 microns,or 0.01 mm,or one tenth the
 thickness of a human hair (one micron equals 1 /1,000,000 of a
meter,or 0.000039 inch).In other  words,if one wants to analyze the
cyanide concentration in a brick sample,one should take a
 representative sample of the surface,10 microns thick,and no
more.Yet,as Roth remembered,  ";[Leuchter ] presented us with rock
samples anywhere from the size of your thumb up to half the size  of
your fist.We broke them up with a hammer so that we could get a
sub-sample;we placed it in a  flask,add concentrated sulfuric acid.It
undergoes a reaction that produces a red-colored solution.It  is the
intensity of this red color that we can relate with cyanide
concentration."67 Roth explained  that his laboratory analysis could
not make up for faulty sampling technique.If the sample was not
 representative,the results would be meaningless.Because the cyanide
cannot penetrate into the  brick for more than 10 microns,it is
unavoidable that the cyanide concentration will be diluted 10  times
when the sample is 100 microns or 0.1 mm or 0.0039 inch thick,it will
be diluted 1,000  times when the sample is 10 mm or 0.39 inch
thick.Leuchter did not carefully slice the surface of  the materials he
was sampling.In fact,as the video tapes clearly show,he hacked happily
into the  walls,and took samples that counted at least a thousand of
layers of material that could not have  reacted with the cyanide.As
Roth remarked,";I might have had the back side of the brick,not the
 front side of the brick,but I didn 't know which side was up and which
was down.That's the point:  Which was the exposed surface?I didn 't
even have any idea.That is like analyzing paint on a wall by  analyzing
the timber that's behind it." In conclusion Roth stated that ";I don 't
think the Leuchter  results have any meaning."68 

 Indeed: the only conclusion one may legitimally draw from Leuchter's
sampling is that the  very fact that the Alpha laboratories found any
residual cyanide at all is extremely significant.In fact,  Leuchter's
samples most likely proved the use of morgue 1 of crematorium 2 and 3
as a gas chamber. 



David Irving hitched his wagon - his career, credibility, and
reputation - to the Leuchter report, a pseudo-scientific document
written by an ignorant charlatan that has been shown to be so
fault-ridden that it is worthless. Nevertheless, he is too vain to
admit that he was stupid enough to make a mistake of such magnitude. My
personal feeling is that Irving is not a historian at all, but rather a
yellow press journalist how has learned to write in the language of a
historian. He is always on the lookout for the sensational and
outrageous, for which reason he was as instinctively and uncritically
attracted to the Leuchter report as a fly is to fresh turds.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:06 EDT 2001
Article: 929041 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.flame.niggers,balt.general,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why have Jews been hated?
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:07:07 +0300
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In article <3B5812F5.3CD3A0BA@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 

> > >
> > > ===========================
> >
> > Not all Jews are successful. You have the full spectrum among the Jews,
> > running from multimillionaire to pauper, just as you do among other
> > minorities and the majority as well.
> 
> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> Every solitary thing I have read on the matter -whether on the right or on the
> left-- agrees that, generally Jews do conspicuously than white Americans,
> generally.

You are doing the same thing that you accuse me of doing:
overgeneralizing. Yes, statistics say that Jews, as a group, do better
than white Americans generally. It hides the reality that many American
Jews are employed in academia, where pay scales are much lower than in
private business, as well as the fact that American Jews are mostly an
urban ethnicity, and urban professions generally draw higher salaries
than rural professions do. So things balance out. American Jews are
also, on the whole, better educated than the rest of the population,
and they thus have more options available.

So I agree with you that American Jews are a "successful" minority, I
only emphasize that any group will have its have's and have-not's, and
American Jews are demographically skewed towards the upper end of the
scale for a variety of reasons, one of them being that ant-Semitism
once excluded them from many fields, for which reason they had to enter
so-called "new professions" such as the movie production, an industry
largely founded and developed by Russian Jews.


> > > =========================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > The author of this screed tells us that he has a formula for success. We
> > > are
> > > to
> > > get an "education."  It has no doubt escaped his attention that today
> > > there
> > > are
> > > thousands and thousands of people who got an education yet stand in the
> > > unemployment lines.
> > >
> > > ==================================
> >
> > Nevertheless, unemployment in the US is currently running at about 4%
> > which, in a capitalist society, means virtually full employment.
> 
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> This is an example and, in my view, an egregious one, of your penchant for 
> grabbing
> hold of a statistic and imagining that it is sufficient to convey a true
> picture af
> affairs. THere are just certain things that your Potemkin Village of an
> unemployment
> figure does not tell us.

Nevertheless, the figure is in that range, enviable, given that
countries such as Germany and France have long been grappling with
double-digit unemployment rates. 

In a large country like the US it is obvious that there are going to be
major regional differences in the unemployment rate, as there are also
in the benefits and other perks available to the unemployed.
Nevertheless, the only major industrialized country with a national
unemployment rate approaching the American 4 to 5 per cent is Japan.


> ==================================================
> Phillips
>  
> (1) I do not know how up-to-date your figure is but -living in this country
> as you
> are not- I can tell you that the situation has greatly worsened over the past
> four
> months.

Yes, there is a slowdown in the American economy. Export-oriented
societies such as Finland are *very* aware of this. This is one of the
problems being addressed at the G8 summit in Genoa right now.

> ==================================================
> Phillips
>   
> (2) The primary impulse of government is to make themselves look good, to make
> people believe that they are doing fine. That is why people who have ceased
> looking
> for work are not even counted. That is why, to government, a job is a dob is
> a job,
> even if it is temp or part-time.

If it puts food on the table, it's a job.

> ==================================================
> Phillips
>  
> (3) What published statistics give us a true picture of the millions of
> married
> couples who, to maintain any kind of decent standard, must both slave away at
> their
> entry-level service jobs with zero prospect of ever being in any other
> situation.

If they are at entry-level service jobs they are in a no-win situation.
Fifty years ago if you had a high-school diploma, you could usually get
a decently paying job, if you were not a woman, a Jew, a black, an
Hispanic, an Asian, or a white ethnic with too outlandish a name. An
unfortunate consequence of the democratization of the job market and
the school system is that you have a much larger pool of competent
people competing for the lowest paid jobs, thus making it possible for
employers to pay miserable wages. Another aspect of this that most
people tend to forget is the decline of organized labor. Here in Europe
almost everyone belongs to a horizontally organized union, this
includes employees as well as employers. Both sides negotiate, for the
most part at least, in good faith in this ensures relatively high
wages, generous benefits, and decent working conditions. Most American
workers are not unionized, and they are thus more vulnerable to the
whims of their employers.

> ==================================================
> Phillips
>  
> Did you know that many authorities estimate that something like 80% of
> Americans,
> fortunate to live in the land of the free and the home of the brave, hate
> their
> jobs.
> 
> =====================================

I've never seen a figure that high, but, if it's true, I'm not
surprised. One of the reasons the American economy is so successful is
that less attention is paid to workers' benefits than in other
countries with roughly similar standards of living. For example, I have
36 workday's annual paid vacation, and everyone in Finland has at least
20 workday's. My dad used to get two weeks annually, and if he was
sick, it was subtracted.

> 
> > The
> > fact that living on unemployment benefits or welfare in the US means a
> > very low standard of living, while millionaires pay relatively low
> > taxes, is a consequence of decisions the American people have made
> > about how the swag is to be divied up. In Sweden, with lower wages and
> > higher taxes, the fat cats are leaner, but people living on
> > unemployment or welfare benefits can maintain a middle-class lifestyle.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I'm all for that though I much prefer seeing people employed. For while
> unemployment
> benefits can assure physical existence, they canot provide a sense of dignity
> and
> belonging.
> 
> ================================================

They can if attitudes are changed. I believe I mentioned John Kenneth
Galbraith's _New Industrial Society_ in a previous posting in which he
tackles this problem from the perspective of a generation ago. There
is, he argued, no rational economic reason that the majority of the
adult population should have to work for its living from the age of
about 20 to the age of 65. It's a leftover from a different age and
might cause more problems than it solves. But, in the US at least,
people _hate_ the idea of the money they earn going to support people
who are not working. Other societies take a different view of this and
are thus able to tolerate the 10 to 15 percent unemployment levels,
national health insurance, and 40 to 50% direct tax levels that are the
norm in Western Europe.


> >
> > An education is not a guarantee of employment anywhere, and a person
> > has to upgrade his/her skills to remain employable. Think of all the
> > computer science majors who studied Basic and Pascal and learned how to
> > program the Zilog-80 twenty years ago. If they have not bothered to
> > follow developments in the field, their hard-acquired skills are
> > worthless today.
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> THat cuts to the question of whether Technology exists for people or whether
> people
> exist for technology.  Of the two, which do you consider the more proper
> state of
> affairs.
> 
> ===================================================

Ideally, there would be a balance. For example, our university has
periodic sessions and courses for its employees so that they can
upgrade their professional skills. The tax authorities allow me to
write off the books, computers, and other expenses I have to buy to
keep abreast of my field and to be a more effective teacher and
researcher.

Certainly no person should expect to coast through life on the basis of
knowledge and skills he7she acquired before the age of 25. Even a truck
driver using one of today's computerized, environmentally friendly, and
hijack-secure trucks has to have a very different set of skills than a
truck-driver of as recently as twenty years ago. One of my brothers is
an air traffic controller, and he has gone through at least three
generations of equipment and numerous training courses during his
career. The learning curve was steep, but the result was a much less
nerve-wracking work day after each new system had been mastered.

> 
> > Generally speaking, the countries that invest most in
> > education and relentless technical development have the highest
> > standards of living, but not necessarily the lowest rates of
> > unemployment.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> And you see no contradiction between the two?
> 
> ==================================

No. I don't see why full employment is such a virtue. A comprehensive
system of social welfare, a feeling of social responsibility, and the
understanding that a person who is unemployed is likely to use the time
for self-improvement in order to eventually land a job would have me
happy to see the grunt jobs disappear to the extent possible, with
those choosing or being forced to do them being paid good salaries. On
the other hand, I am not in favor of work for work's sake, or of
retaining jobs that are being done at a loss in one country if they can
be done at a profit in another. A propos:

Source: http://europe.cnn.com/2001/BUSINESS/07/20/ericsson/


Ericsson posts big loss
       

July 20, 2001 Posted: 1302 GMT


LONDON (CNN) -- Sweden's Ericsson, the world's biggest wireless network
supplier, swung to a heavy second-quarter loss as handset sales plunged
and it restructured.

Ericsson said its pretax losses before restructuring charges were 5.3
billion crowns ($500 million) in the quarter, in line with lowered
expectations, compared with a profit of 6.7 billion crowns in the three
months last year.

The company posted a net loss of 14.2 billion Swedish crowns, or 1.81
crowns a share, in the three months to June 30. That compares to a
profit of 10.2 billion crowns, or 1.28 crowns a share, in the year-ago
period.



In April, Ericsson posted a first-quarter pretax loss of 4.9 billion
crowns, excluding a gain of 5.5 billion crowns from the sale of its
stake in Juniper Networks Inc. of the U.S.

Ericsson suffered huge losses at its mobile phone business. In a bid to
stem losses and save 38 billion crowns annually from 2002, it agreed to
farm out production of mobile phones and launched a handset joint
venture with Japan's Sony.


Ericsson has had to terminate production of mobile telephones in
Sweden,  at a cost of up to 12,000 jobs, they are now being made in
Malaysia and imported, profitably, to Sweden (see:
http://europe.cnn.com/2001/BUSINESS/04/20/ericsson/ for details).

> 
> > For the time being, the United States, a country of
> > immigration rather than emigration, benefits from the fact that the
> > many immigrants (few of whom are Jews) that enter the country and work
> > at high-paying jobs begin paying taxes into the economy, but, having
> > been educated by the taxes paid by people in other countries, are
> > socially "cheap" from the standpoint of the American economy.
> > Statistics I've seen claim that the social costs of educating bringing
> > up a child up to the age when he/she becomes a taxpayer is on the order
> > a million dollars.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> An influx into the country of highly-paid immigrants does not "benefit"
> ANYBODY but
> the immigrants and their employers.

It benefits the taxman, because these people are paying taxes according
to a higher rate; it also constitutes a saving to society, because it
is getting highly trained people without having had to outlay the
considerable amounts of money it took to educate them and otherwise
insure that they grew up to be productive adults. The downside is that
the country that invested the money in educating them loses the benefit
of the taxes they are paying on their income, although in fact many
immigrfants make remittances home.


> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> (1) It certainly harms native professional by depressing their wages
>
Granted to a degree. Native professionals always have a home turf
advantage, and by virtue of having a native command of the language and
culture, they can upgrade their skills more easily and effectively than
the native, even if from an English-speaking country. Having yourself
lived in the UK for an extended period, you certainly understand the
benefits of being an insider.

Why, by the way, is the fact that you have immigrated to two countries
a "good" thing, while the fact that someone immigrates to your country
a "bad" thing?

> ========================================
> Phillips
> (2) It even more seriously hurts native non-professionals by by increasing the
> severity of competition fr scarce resources such as housing. That is why, in
> Silicon
> Valley, apartment rentals have been driven out of the reach   of so many
> ordinary
> people.

The price of housing would have hit the sky in Silicon Valley even
without a single immigrant. Landlords know what kinds of salaries
computer gurus are earning, and they charge what the market will bear.
That's just good capitalism.

> ========================================
> Phillips
>
> THese are the fruits of the democracy and free markets which we insist that
> the rest
> of the world follow.
> 
> =========================================

Much of the world is green with envy at the economic success of the US,
even if most of Western Europe, at least, prefers a softer, gentler
apporach to running society.

> > You never followed me up on our discussion about which country in the
> > world has a higher standard of living than the US. I take that as a
> > concession that Sweden, where people have, on the average, about 60% of
> > the buying power that Americans have and where taxes, including a 25%
> > value-added tax on all non-food purchases, take more than 60% of your
> > earnings, and 10% unemployment, is not in the running.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have not for gotten about it but feel that it needs careful preparation. Expect ti
> before not too long.
> 
> ======================

I eagerly await your contribution.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:06 EDT 2001
Article: 929050 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 19:36:25 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B581DD5.D2C4ECE3@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> Just exactly what "abuse" has Irving heaped on the historical profession
> --other than to
> introduce the disturbing possibility that  he may be more thorough than they
> are.
> 
> ==========================================

Quite the opposite. He abused them in the same manner as a cat hissing
at a German shepherd abuses the dog. The cat is just not in the same
league, and its aggressiveness, which will wind up with its being torn
to shreds if the dog responds in kind, is a disturbance and show of
arrogance.

David Irving's holocaust denial rested on three main pillars:
1. the Leuchter Report, which claims that there were traces of cyanide
compounds on the walls of structures alleged to have been gas chambers,
but that these structures were unable to deal with the cyanide that
gave rise to the compounds in question;
2. the illogical assumption that if there were no gas chambers at
Auschwitz, there were no gas chambers anywhere elese;
3. the totally insane assumption that the Leuchter Report refuted every
other piece of historical evidence that the Nazis used mass-execution
gas chambers.

Neither should it be forgotten that both Leuchter and Irving are
self-taught amateurs, with vast gaps in their command of the subject
matter, the methodology, and modes of critical thinking used in the
professions they were challenging. Leuchter lacked training in
toxicology, analytical chemistry, and forensic science; Irving was a
university dropout with no academic training in history. Irving,
uncritically trusting the veracity of Leuchter's report, used it to  
take on not only the academic history establishment but also
governments, legal systems, museums at concentration camp sites and the
memories of the hundreds of thousands of people still alive who
participated in the Holocaust as victims or perpetrators. His challenge
that the Emporor's clothes were a fraud has boomeranged, leaving him
the intellectually naked, broke, and now thoroughly discredited amateur
historian that he showed himself to be the day he teamed up with the
likes of Zündel and Leuchter.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:06 EDT 2001
Article: 929480 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:36:45 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B58CC2D.7FA02D3B@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I visited the first of you two sites and saw Plate 14 and Plate 15. Both
> spoke of
> cremattoria, the exintence of which we have never denied.
> 
> I next quote the text:
> 
> ""... Drawings in the Building Office archive illuminate the step-by-step
> transformation
> of the
>      crematoria from an incineration system for the efficient disposal of
> corpses to a
> lethal installation for
>      the murder of live human beings "
> 
> I should like very much to SEE those drawings which show the "step-by-step
> transformation" etc.
> --If you can produce them and if they support your claims then I must either
> reply to
> them or else wave the white flag.
> --If either you are unable to produce them or if they do not prove what you
> claimed they
> would prove, then I will see no need to reply to any of your other points.
> 
> So .. do please produce those drawings you alluded to above.
> 
> ==========
> 

Why did you visit only the first site? The second site is a
continuation of it and contains some crucial material.

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/k2-construct-docs-
02.html


Plate 17: Dejaco's accepted proposal to create a new entrance to the
basement. Auschwitz-Birkenau, December 1942. Auschwitz-Birkenau State
Museum, box BW (B) 30/2, file BW 30/12. The slide, which would obstruct
movement between the morgue to the left (the undressing room) and the
morgue to the right (the gas chamber), has been removed.

"The designs in plates 14 and 15 are conceptual sketches. The
worked-out blueprint (plate 16) is more complex and informative. It was
used to request building materials and permissions, and was given to
the Huta contracting firm, which was happy to have the business. The
plan was changed yet again in December 1942. With a relatively simple
drawing (plate 17), Walther Dejaco transformed the basement design. He
drew in an outside staircase descending from the yard next to the
railway spur into a basement entrance to the crematorium. There he
changed one of the two underground morgues into an undressing room and
the other into a gas chamber. He cancelled the planned corpse chute,
which in the earlier plans (plates 14, 15, 16) had afforded the main
access to the basement morgues. Live human beings descend staircases.
Dead bodies are dropped through a chute. The victims would walk to
their death." (Dwork & Van Pelt, between 320-21) 




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:07 EDT 2001
Article: 929481 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.flame.niggers,balt.general,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
Subject: Re: Why have Jews been hated?
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 12:49:19 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <13739392.0107200713.652594af@posting.google.com>, Blakely
 wrote:

> mrhowardus@yahoo.com (Coleman E. Howard) wrote in message
> news:...
> > Why have Jews been hated, persecuted and exiled of every country
> > they've inhabited for thousand of years?
> 
> Two reasons I feel. 1) They are different and in any place in history,
> two different groups of people never got along. 2) Jews preach they
> are the chosen of God, aka superior to others. Any group preaching
> that is asking for trouble from others.
> > 
> > And what's the deal with Auschwitz? They clam over a million Jews were
> > executed in that camp. If that were true, where is the ash of these
> > million people? And before you push a lame argument on the ash, Than
> > you must first take a look at the watertable in Auschwitz.
> 
> It is not hard to get rid of a few thousand tons of ash. If spread
> over several square miles you wouldn't even notice it. A 1/4 inch
> snowfall over one square miles weighs 1000's of tons. And if the
> watertable at Auschwitz was two feet in all areas, how were they able
> to build basements and lay a foundation for the buildings?

People have known how to drain swamps and reclaim land - permanently
lowering the watertable by human intervention - for thousands of years.
The land on which the building in which I am sitting right now was an
inlet of the Gulf of Finland until they drained it 200 years ago.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:07 EDT 2001
Article: 929587 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving "No objective, fair-minded historian"
Supersedes: <210720011325434072%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 13:31:58 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <73fedc95.0107201038.451e8d9f@posting.google.com>, Morghus
 wrote:

> Brian Blank  wrote in message
> news:...
> > On 20 Jul 2001 12:27:43 GMT, Sara  wrote:
> > 
> > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1448000/1448417.stm
> > >
> > >"Lord Justice Pill said: "No objective, fair-minded historian would have 
> > >serious cause to doubt that there were gas chambers at Auschwitz and 
> > >that they were operated on a substantial scale to kill hundreds of 
> > >thousands of Jews". 
> > >
> > >I suppose we now can look forward to Mr. Irving calling Lord Justice 
> > >Pill a Jew.
> > >
> > >Sara
> > 
> > I also assume that we will soon be seeing accusations that the Lord
> > Justices were threatened and/or intimidated by "the Jews."
> > 
> > Regards,
> 
> 
> 
>     Not too long ago, no "objective, fair-minded historian" would have
> doubted hundreds of thousands of Jews were buried at Treblinka. 
> Unfortunately for those uninformed historians, recent radar
> penetrating ground studies revealed not a single grave anywhere near
> the site that was once Treblinka.

No study to this effect has been published, and there were mass graves
as well as photographs of the excavator used for exhumation of graves
at Treblinka:

See: 
http://history1900s.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.hol
ocaust%2Dinfo.dk/operation%5Freinhard/imgs%5Ftreblinka/

When your radar team comes to a conclusion which conflicts with the
historical record, and then doesn't even publish its findings, their
credibility is highly suspect.

> There was a time when no "objective,
> fair-minded historian" would have doubted hundreds of thousands were
> killed in gas chambers at Dachau.

Nonsense. The highest estimate of the number of deaths at Dachau is
238,000, with 31,591 being the number of deaths of registered inmates
[Distel, Barbara and Jakusch, Ruth, Editors, _Concentration Camp
Dachau: 1933 - 1945_, 1978, Comité International de Dachau, Brussels,
Lipp GmbH (Munich) ISBN 3-87490528-4, pgs 212-213]. Historians have
long been in agreement that most of the deaths at Dachau were the
result of shootings, death marches, and general brutality.

> Today we know better.  Any
> fair-minded historian in Germany, France, or Switzerland who publicly
> states the gas chamber at Auschwitz is not genuine, even though
> everyone knows it was constructed after the camp was captured, will go
> before an objective, fair-minded judge and be sent to jail. 

This is not true, either. The gas chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager is a
partial restoration of a gas chamber which was once there but was
subsequently decommissioned. Saying something is "not genuine" means
that it is fraudulent and intended to deceive. This is not the case
with the gas chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager. The guidebook to the
museum as well as other books about the history of the camp state
clearly and unambiguously that the gas chamber was partially
reconstructed using the original components insofar as they could be
located. It is genunine in the same sense that a museum dinosaur
skeleton with some of the missing or broken bones replaced by plaster
of Paris reproductions is genuine.


> Apparently, British courts are only one step away from that position. 
> The foolish Lord Justice Pill thinks an objective and fair-minded
> historian is one who does not question popular myths of history.

Remember that David Irving's denial of the presence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz rested solely on Fred Leuchter's report. Leuchter's report
has subsequently been totally discredited, for which reasons Irving's
denial is based on nothing. Leuchter's samples as well as the forensic
examinations conducted immediately after the war, in 1989, and in
1994 by the Cracow Institute for Forensic Research all detected traces
of cyanide compounds on the walls of the structures all other evidence
indicates were used for mass gassings of human beings.

Face up to it. There is no justification whatsoever for denying the
existence of facilities for carrying out mass gassings of people using
cyanide gas at Auschwitz-Stammlager and Auschwitz-Birkenau.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:07 EDT 2001
Article: 930155 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ariel Sharon's libel suit
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 20:57:03 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <210720012057039872%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3B544519@MailAndNews.com> <3B5472FF.E407FF75@earthlink.net> <3B54C44D.DE4C61B5@earthlink.net> <3B57270C.CD531D@earthlink.net> <3B573FBA.DB9078C5@earthlink.net>  <3B579B9E.80665CAB@earthlink.net> <200720010926085699%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B57B8CC.6A828FB5@earthlink.net> <200720011647165630%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B58CC2D.7FA02D3B@earthlink.net> <210720011236457370%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3B59816B.789FBE50@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B59816B.789FBE50@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Well, I can admire the draftsmanship and, yes, I did read something about
> there
> being a gas chamber, but for all that I saw nothing that gives me the
> slightest
> reason to be convinced that there WAS a mass-execution gas chamber.
> 
> My assessment of the validity and veracity of Nizkor sites was formed back in
> '97.
> You have done nothing to alter it.
> 
> ===========================================================

The material at the two sites I referred to is taken directly from
Dwork and van Pelt, 1996. Rather than fulminate against the messenger,
you should make clear what you have against the message.

You say that "I saw nothing that gives me the slightest reason to be
convinced that there WAS a mass-execution gas chamber."

Nevertheless, you cannot deny that:
1. traces of cyanide compounds have been found on the walls and in the
ventilation systems in every forensic analysis, including Fred
Leuchter's, that has ever been conducted there.
2. The architectural plans show that a shute for getting bodies to the
"morgue" was replaced, at a late stage ijn the designing procedure, by
a staircase, enabling the future bodies to get there by themselves.

Richard, even David Irving has been forced to admit on the basis of
overwhelming evidence that the Germans systematically gassed Jews. You
have nothing to base your scepticism on any longer. Show the white flag
and admit that you have been proven wrong.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:08 EDT 2001
Article: 930165 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving "No objective, fair-minded historian"
Supersedes: <210720012116340303%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 21:22:43 +0300
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In article <3B5984F2.EAA733C1@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > This is not true, either. The gas chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager is a
> > partial restoration of a gas chamber which was once there but was
> > subsequently decommissioned.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Sorry, Eugene. I've been to both of you latest websites and found nothing
> whatever to convince me that there ever were mass-execution gas chambers at
> Auschwitz.
> 
> ==============================================

That's your problem. Even David irving has been forced to admit that
the historical evidence indicates that such facilities existed at
Auschwitz. If you have evidence to the contrary, I and the other
members of this newsgroup would be interested in examinining it.

> 
> > Saying something is "not genuine" means
> > that it is fraudulent and intended to deceive. This is not the case
> > with the gas chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager. The guidebook to the
> > museum as well as other books about the history of the camp state
> > clearly and unambiguously that the gas chamber was partially
> > reconstructed using the original components insofar as they could be
> > located.
> 
> ===========================
> Phillips
> 
> Yeah; guidebooks.
> 
> ============================

Yeah, guidebooks meant for the general public as well as scientific
research dealing with the history of the camp indicate that the gas
chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager is a partial restoration, a museum
object, not a "fake".

> > Face up to it. There is no justification whatsoever for denying the
> > existence of facilities for carrying out mass gassings of people using
> > cyanide gas at Auschwitz-Stammlager and Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> Except for the fact that we have no proof of them.
> 
> ==============

We have as much proof as it is possible to retrieve over half a century:
€ the forensic analyses carried out by the Poles as well as by Fred
Leuchter all indicate that cyanide was used in concentrations lethal to
human beings in the facilities in question?
€ all historical evidence indicates that the facilities were gas
chambers;
€ no historical evidence indicates that the facilities were *not* gas
chambers.

Your protestations have no basis in fact or evidence. 

Ckeck, mate, game! Thanks for playing.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Mon Jul 23 05:04:08 EDT 2001
Article: 930938 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news.cc.tut.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving "No objective, fair-minded historian"
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 10:43:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 366
Message-ID: <230720011043484826%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B5A8BCA.EE283947@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> > Thousands of bodies
> > buried, sometimes in shallow graves, go through a rather normal process of
> > putrefaction. Part of this process includes the building up of gases inside
> > the
> > body, often creating an extreme bloating of the stomach. This is
> > accompanied by
> > a liquifying of the internal organs, which are often released when the
> > bodies,
> > under pressure from the internal gases, burst. When this process occurs
> > simultaneously in thousands of buried corpses, it doesn't seem unreasonable
> > that ground surface breakthrough might occur.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I must remind you that Wiesel spoke of geysers of BLOOD.
> 
> ================================

This is a common occurrence with mass graves.



> > >(1) The mere fact that you don't like the things Revisionists say does not
> > >make
> > >them "idiots." This is argument by resorting to Jeff Brownery. (And you
> > >accuse ME
> > >of "bluster.")
> >
> > I never said it did. What they say reveals them to be idiots.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Why?
> 
> ==================================

One reason is they make use of obvious falsehoods. Irving's 1989
statement that it takes "collossally higher" concentrations of cyanide
to kill humans than it does to kill lice, and F. Berg's claims that
diesel exhaust cannot kill people being another.

> >
> > >(2) The Holocaust is a widely believed notion of what happened to europe's
> > >Jews. It
> > >is not a proven historical fact.
> >
> > Nonsense. It's is as proven an historical fact as any other.
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> No, it is not.
> 
> ==================

The Holocaust, defined as a series of intertconnected events which
resulted in the systematic destruction of approximately 6,000,000
European Jews consquent to Nazi racial policy between January 31, 1933,
when Hitler assumed power, until May 1945, when all hostilities in
Europe ended, is a proven historical fact.

1. The most damning evidence is the more than 10,000 concentration
camps built and run by the Nazis for internment of Jews and others.
Between 12,000,000 and 14,000,000 people, half of them Jews, passed
through these camps, and about half of them perished there through
overwork, disease, starvation, shooting, hanging, gassing,
deathmarching, and pseudo-scientific experiments.
2. These camps did not just spring up. They were designed, budgeting,
and administered by various bureaucracies in Berlin subordinate to the
SS. Running an empire of this size - arresting, feeding, clothing,
providing accommmodation for the population of a medium-sized European
country - and exploiting them economically, sucked up a major portion
of the German state budget and employed millions of Germans as
concentration camp guards, suppliers, and clients.
3. The systematicity of it is demonstrated, among other things, by the
fact that Germany used the "Jewish question" as part of its foreign
policy. Jews in countries that were allied or cooperating with Germany,
such as Bulgaria, Denmark, Finland, and Hungary were left in relative
peace as long as the countries were on Germany's side. As soon as
Hungary made an effort to extricate itself from the war Germany
launched a massive, viscious, and well documented campaign against its
Jewish population in 1944. The diplomatic tug-of-war between Bulgaria
and Germany over the fate of Bulgarian Jewry is also well known and
documented. As the relationship between Germans and Danes deteriorated
in Denmark, Germany made plans to round up and exterminate Denmark's
Jews, but these plans were revealed fromn within the German occupation
administration by an informant synpathetic to Jews, and the Jews of
Denmark were spirited out of the country to Sweden in what, once a
again, is a well documented action.
4. Every year European courts deal with claims lodged by Holocaust
victims and their descendants for real estate, bank accounts, insurance
policies, and other property confiscated from Jews in the more than
fifteen countries which were affected by the Holocaust.

The historical factuality of the Holocaust is as real as the historical
factuality of World War Two.

> > >(3) If the Revisionists are the empty-headed frauds you people make them
> > >out
> > >to be,
> > >then it would have been child's play to demolish them in public debate.
> > >Does
> > >not
> > >plain horse sense argue that your side would have eagerly WELCOMED such an
> > >opportunity rather than scurried to evade it?
> >
> > Serious scholars have better things to do than make fools of fools.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wrong. The Holocaustniks had and still have NOTHING better to do than to prove
> their opponents wrong. So once again I ask: why did they refuse the golden
> opportunity that was not merely presented to them but URGED upon them.
> 
> ====================================

We've just seen the outcome of a confrontation between revisionist
"scholarship" and historical factuality. It resulted in the total
discrediting of everything David Irving has written or said since he
teamed up with Ernst Zündel and Fred Leuchter.

> >
> > >> >(5) Russia, freshly triumphant over Germany and in possession of the
> > >alleged
> > >> >extermination sites, had not made the places off-limits to Western
> > >> >investigators.
> >
> > >> Please list the Westen investigators who were denied access.
> >
> > >This is defence-in-depth by again resorting to Jeff Brownery. I do not know
> > >the
> > >names of the Continental troopers who crossed the Delaware with Washington.
> > >But I
> > >do know that several did.
> >
> > In other words you have no evidence to support your claim that anyone was
> > denied access to the camps.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> I do know that the Russkies put the sites off limits. Whether anyone
> attempted to
> see them I do not know.
> 
> ======================================

The Russians most certainly did not put the sites off limits, since
they are in Poland, not the USSR. It took some time to clean the places
up and convert them to museums, but Auschwitz, at least, has been
accessible to tourists and researchers since the early 1950s. All of
the other death camps, Chelmno, Belzec, Majdanek, Sobibor, and
Treblinka, had been converted to museums and memorial sites by the late
1950s. Poland, the country which arguably suffered the most during WW
II, had to rebuilt almost the entire country. Converting the former
death camps to museums was not a job of the highest priority in a
country where entire cities, ethnicities, and social classes had been
destroyed.

> >
> >
> > >> >Just what was it they had to hide? They, more than anyone, wanted to see
> > >the
> > >> >Nazis blackened unto eternity. If what you claim was there was REALLY
> > >there,
> > >> >then
> > >> >wouldn't it have been in the Soviets' interest to let Western
> > >investigators
> > >> >see
> > >> >all they could and as soon as they could.
> > >>
> > >> Really running out ideas, eh Phillips. So now we are to accept as
> > >reasonable
> > >> your arguments from credulity! Deal with the evidence.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Fine offer me some. For four years I have been trying to get convincing proof
> of
> the existence and operation of mass execution gas chambers. THe most recent
> attempt
> was Eugene's but he fell on his face as the rest of you have done.
> 
> ======================

It most certainly did not fall flat on its face. The evidence was
presented to you, but you were unable to evaluate it. Specifically, you
could not explain why the body chute was replaced by a curving
staircase in the final draft for Krema II, or why it was outfitted as
an undressing room. Neither could you account for the presence of
cyanide compounds on the walls in precisely the places other sources
indicate were gas chambers. They could not be the result of a single
fuming during the 1942 tyhpus epidemic, as argued by Leuchter, because
the construction of the building did not begin until early 1943.
Additionally, if they were the result of a fumigation, we would not
expect there to be concentrations in the places aleged to have been gas
chambers and nowhere else, rather we would expect the entire building
to show traces of cyanide compounds, which it doesn't.

Other historical records tell us that the architectural changes and the
presence of cyanide in certain places are the consequences of certain
parts of the building having served as low-tech gas chambers. Your
requests for diagrams of sealing and gasketing are irrelevant: the
forensic record indicates that these rooms were built sturdily enough
to deal with low concentrations of cyanide needed to kill any human
beings trapped inside. The revisionist side has sought to explain this
with an out-and-out lie: the specious claim that it takes more cyanide
to kill people than it does to kill lice, when precisely the opposite
is true.


> >
> > >THe fact that the Russkies put those places off-limits IS evidence. I want
> > >to
> > >know
> > >what it was they had to hide.
> >
> > You have failed to show that that was the case.

The Russians had no jurisdiction over the camps once the war was over
and the Polish government re-established.


> >
> > Then you must address the credibility of those who supplied the evidence for
> > the Holocaust. Attacking the credibility of others, for actions after the
> > fact,
> > is stupid.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Not so.
> 
> It is equally legitimate to challenge the credibility of those who publicly
> uphold
> the Holocaust and denource those who oppose it. If those people choose to act
> in
> ways thac seriously cal their credibility into question, then most certainly
> do
> they damage thoin own cause.
> 
> =========================================

The biggest assault on the factuality of the Holocaust was the Leuchter
Report and subsequent spin-off by David Irving and company. That has
now been thoroughly debunked and shown to be a scientifically worthless
document produced by an incompetent who did not understand forensic
methodology, the different lethal effects of cyanide on warm and
cold-blooded creatures, the architectural history of the places he was
investigating, or the general theory of gas chamber design. 

Any person of integrity would indignantly denounce people who would
deny all historical evidence to the contrary on the basis of such a
report. Any person of integrity would label as a fool any historian who
is so injudicious that he would trash his career by uncritically
accepting so foolish a document as the Leuchter Report. Any person with
a serious interest in history would be extremely wary of works produced
by an amateur historian too vain to read the analytical work of other
historians, or by an amateur forensic scientist with no  formal
training in science or understabnding of either the general theory of
gas chamber design, or the chemical properties of cyanide gas.


> > >Possibly so but such survivors would have possessed in Western eyes a
> > >credibility
> > >that Russian officers and officials could never have possessed.
> >
> > What the hell does this have to do with what the Nazis thought process was?
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It has THIS to do with it: If they HAD committed those mass murders, they
> would
> have been perfectly aware that somebody was going to be made to answer for it.
> After all, for 12 years Hitler had been pounding into them what a
> Jew-controlled
> country America was. Do you imagine that none of this had sunk in? Regarding
> the
> survivors, the camp officials would have had one thought and one thought
> only. They
> must NOT be allowed to tell their tales to Allied intelligence people.
> 
> =============================================

The cat was already out of the bag, because many massacres, such as the
systematic extermination of the Jews in Liepaja and Riga were conducted
in public, photographed, filmed, and reported in the media. The Nazis
sometimes advertised their atrocities - you do remember how they filmed
the operation when they wiped Lidice of the map in revenge for the
assassination of Reinhard Heydrich?.

> > >> Marching them west away from the Soviets in mid winter,
> > >> thereby affecting the deaths of the vast majority of those marched out of
> > >> Auschwitz, was the alternative.
> 
> ================================
> Phillips
> 
> If their deaths was the Nazis' object then why not kill them at the camps,
> rather
> than dragging along additional mouths to feed who were bound to slow down the
> westward march.
> 
> ==========================================

1. They tried shooting them at Auschwitz, but found that, with the
Soviet Army rapidly approaching, they had neither the time nor the
resources to shoot more than 60,000 people.
2. They didn't drag along any additional mouths to feed. Court trials
on these death marches show that, for the most part, the inmates were
made to march without being fed at all.
3. The purpose of the westward march was to ensure that as many inmates
would drop dead along the road as possible. None had winter clothing,
many lacked shoes and were marching in the winter snow barefoot. 

The 118 Jewish women from the Helmbrecht's death march found on May 7,
1945 by the 5th Infantry Division of the US Army in Volary,
Czechoslovakia, were in such a horrible condition that the captain
writing the report stated: "My first glance at these individuals was
one of extreme shock not ever believing that a human being can be
degraded, can be starved, can be so skinny and even live under such
conditions."

> >
> > >Alternative to what. That is exactly what they DID do.
> >
> > To murdering them in the camps, obviously. What other option was there?
> >
> > >> Indeed, when the Nazis had marched the inmates
> > >> as far west as possible, and approached contact with the American and
> > >British
> > >> armies, they then began to march the remnants north and south as the two
> > >> approaching armies narrowed the vise on Germany.
> >
> > >To what end?
> >
> > To permit as many as possible to die.
> 
> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> THen why not kill them at the camps?
> 
> =======================

Mass killings take time and organization, and in the state of chaos
that the camps were in during the final days, a mass shooting could
easily get out of hand. The best way to maingain control was to
deathmarch the prisoners who were able to walk, and leave those unable
to walk for the Soviets to deal with, something which would slow them
down and divert their resources, as, indeed, happened.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul 25 13:49:44 EDT 2001
Article: 930988 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving "No objective, fair-minded historian"
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In article <3B5A8BCA.EE283947@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> > Thousands of bodies
> > buried, sometimes in shallow graves, go through a rather normal process of
> > putrefaction. Part of this process includes the building up of gases inside
> > the
> > body, often creating an extreme bloating of the stomach. This is
> > accompanied by
> > a liquifying of the internal organs, which are often released when the
> > bodies,
> > under pressure from the internal gases, burst. When this process occurs
> > simultaneously in thousands of buried corpses, it doesn't seem unreasonable
> > that ground surface breakthrough might occur.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I must remind you that Wiesel spoke of geysers of BLOOD.
> 
> ================================

This is a common occurrence with mass graves, where the bodies have
been buried without coffins. Wiesel spoke of geysers of blood, but what
he actually saw was the putrified and partially liquid internal organs
which, to the untrained, resemble blood. I can cetainly understand his
reluctance not to stay around to make a more precise analysis.

> > >(1) The mere fact that you don't like the things Revisionists say does not
> > >make
> > >them "idiots." This is argument by resorting to Jeff Brownery. (And you
> > >accuse ME
> > >of "bluster.")
> >
> > I never said it did. What they say reveals them to be idiots.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Why?
> 
> ==================================

One reason is they make use of obvious falsehoods. Irving's 1989
statement that it takes "collossally higher" concentrations of cyanide
to kill humans than it does to kill lice, his semantic shenanigans with
the words "Ausrottung/ausrotten", his preposterous claim that Hitler
know nothing about a program being implemented in more thahn fifteen
countries that was eating up trillions of Reichsmarks in the state
budget, and F. Berg's claims that diesel exhaust cannot kill people
being another.

> >
> > >(2) The Holocaust is a widely believed notion of what happened to europe's
> > >Jews. It
> > >is not a proven historical fact.
> >
> > Nonsense. It's is as proven an historical fact as any other.
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> No, it is not.
> 
> ==================

The Holocaust, defined as a series of intertconnected events which
resulted in the systematic destruction of approximately 6,000,000
European Jews consquent to Nazi racial policy between January 31, 1933,
when Hitler assumed power, until May 1945, when all hostilities in
Europe ended, is a proven historical fact.

1. The most damning evidence is the more than 10,000 concentration
camps built and run by the Nazis for internment of Jews and others.
Between 12,000,000 and 14,000,000 people, half of them Jews, passed
through these camps, and the majority of them perished there as the
result of overwork, disease, starvation, shooting, hanging, gassing,
deathmarching, and pseudo-scientific experiments.

2. These camps did not just spring up. They were designed, budgeted,
and administered by various bureaucracies in Berlin subordinate to the
SS. Running an empire of this size - arresting, feeding, clothing,
providing accommmodation for the population of a medium-sized European
country - and exploiting them economically, sucked up a major portion
of the German state budget, supplied Germany with vast amounts of
armaments and materiel, and employed millions of Germans as
concentration camp guards, suppliers, and clients.

3. The systematicity of it is demonstrated, among other things, by the
fact that Germany used the "Jewish question" as part of its foreign
policy. Jews in countries that were allied or cooperating with Germany,
such as Bulgaria, Denmark, Finland, and Hungary were left in relative
peace as long as the countries were on Germany's side, even if Himmler,
when visiting Finland, suggested that Germany be given a hand at
solving the "Jewish problem" in Finland. As soon as Hungary made an
effort to extricate itself from the war Germany launched a massive,
viscious, and well documented campaign against its Jewish population in
1944. The diplomatic tug-of-war between Bulgaria and Germany over the
fate of Bulgarian Jewry is also well known and documented. As the
relationship between Germans and Danes deteriorated in Denmark, Germany
made plans to round up and exterminate Denmark's Jews, but these plans
were revealed fromn within the German occupation administration by an
informant synpathetic to Jews, and the Jews of Denmark were spirited
out of the country to Sweden in what, once a again, is a well
documented action. The herculean efforts of Raoul Wallenberg to save
the Jews of Budapest from death camps, as well as the successful
diplomatic intervention of Swedish King Gustav IV to halt the
deportations to Auschwitz of Hungarian Jews are also well documented
and well known.

4. Every year European courts deal with claims lodged by Holocaust
victims and their descendants for real estate, bank accounts, insurance
policies, and other property confiscated by the Nazis from Jews in the
more than fifteen countries which were affected by the Holocaust.

The historical factuality of the Holocaust is as real as the historical
factuality of World War Two.

> > >(3) If the Revisionists are the empty-headed frauds you people make them
> > >out
> > >to be,
> > >then it would have been child's play to demolish them in public debate.
> > >Does
> > >not
> > >plain horse sense argue that your side would have eagerly WELCOMED such an
> > >opportunity rather than scurried to evade it?
> >
> > Serious scholars have better things to do than make fools of fools.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wrong. The Holocaustniks had and still have NOTHING better to do than to prove
> their opponents wrong. So once again I ask: why did they refuse the golden
> opportunity that was not merely presented to them but URGED upon them.
> 
> ====================================

We've just seen the outcome of a confrontation between revisionist
"scholarship" and historical factuality. It resulted in the total
discrediting of everything David Irving has written or said since he
teamed up with Ernst Zündel and Fred Leuchter.

> >
> > >> >(5) Russia, freshly triumphant over Germany and in possession of the
> > >alleged
> > >> >extermination sites, had not made the places off-limits to Western
> > >> >investigators.
> >
> > >> Please list the Westen investigators who were denied access.
> >
> > >This is defence-in-depth by again resorting to Jeff Brownery. I do not know
> > >the
> > >names of the Continental troopers who crossed the Delaware with Washington.
> > >But I
> > >do know that several did.
> >
> > In other words you have no evidence to support your claim that anyone was
> > denied access to the camps.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> I do know that the Russkies put the sites off limits. Whether anyone
> attempted to
> see them I do not know.
> 
> ======================================

The Russians most certainly did not put the sites off limits, since
they are in Poland, not the USSR. It took some time to clean the places
up and convert them to museums, but Auschwitz, at least, has been
accessible to tourists and researchers since the early 1950s, the law
converting it to a museum dating back to 1947 [D. Dwork & Robert Jan
van Pelt, _Auschwitz 1270 to the Present_ New Ork: Norton, 1996, pg.
364]. All of the other death camps, Chelmno, Belzec, Majdanek, Sobibor,
and Treblinka, had been converted to museums and memorial sites by the
late 1950s. Poland, the country which arguably suffered the most during
WW II, had to rebuilt almost the entire country. Converting the former
death camps to museums was not a job of the highest priority in a
resources-poor country where entire cities, ethnicities, and social
classes had been destroyed by the Nazis.

> >
> >
> > >> >Just what was it they had to hide? They, more than anyone, wanted to see
> > >the
> > >> >Nazis blackened unto eternity. If what you claim was there was REALLY
> > >there,
> > >> >then
> > >> >wouldn't it have been in the Soviets' interest to let Western
> > >investigators
> > >> >see
> > >> >all they could and as soon as they could.
> > >>
> > >> Really running out ideas, eh Phillips. So now we are to accept as
> > >reasonable
> > >> your arguments from credulity! Deal with the evidence.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Fine offer me some. For four years I have been trying to get convincing proof
> of
> the existence and operation of mass execution gas chambers. THe most recent
> attempt
> was Eugene's but he fell on his face as the rest of you have done.
> 
> ======================

It most certainly did not fall flat on its face. The evidence was
presented to you, but you were unable to evaluate it. Specifically, you
could not explain why the body chute was replaced by a curving
staircase in the final draft for Krema II, or why it was outfitted as
an undressing room. Neither could you account for the presence of
cyanide compounds on the walls in precisely the places other sources
indicate were gas chambers. They could not be the result of a single
fuming during the 1942 tyhpus epidemic, as argued by Leuchter, because
the construction of the building did not begin until early 1943.
Additionally, if they were the result of a fumigation, we would not
expect there to be concentrations in the places alleged to have been gas
chambers and nowhere else, rather we would expect the entire building
to show traces of cyanide compounds, which it doesn't.

Other historical records tell us that the architectural changes and the
presence of cyanide in certain places are the consequences of certain
parts of the building having served as low-tech gas chambers. Your
requests for diagrams of sealing and gasketing are irrelevant: the
forensic record indicates that these rooms were built sturdily enough
to deal with low concentrations of cyanide needed to kill any human
beings trapped inside. The revisionist side has sought to explain this
with an out-and-out lie: the specious claim that it takes more cyanide
to kill people than it does to kill lice, when precisely the opposite
is true.


> >
> > >THe fact that the Russkies put those places off-limits IS evidence. I want
> > >to
> > >know
> > >what it was they had to hide.
> >
> > You have failed to show that that was the case.

The Russians had no jurisdiction over the camps once the war was over
and the Polish government re-established.


> >
> > Then you must address the credibility of those who supplied the evidence for
> > the Holocaust. Attacking the credibility of others, for actions after the
> > fact,
> > is stupid.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Not so.
> 
> It is equally legitimate to challenge the credibility of those who publicly
> uphold
> the Holocaust and denource those who oppose it. If those people choose to act
> in
> ways thac seriously cal their credibility into question, then most certainly
> do
> they damage thoin own cause.
> 
> =========================================

The biggest assault on the factuality of the Holocaust was the Leuchter
Report and subsequent spin-off by David Irving and company. That has
now been thoroughly debunked and shown to be a scientifically worthless
document produced by an incompetent who did not understand forensic
methodology, the different lethal effects of cyanide on warm and
cold-blooded creatures, the architectural history of the places he was
investigating, or the general theory of gas chamber design. 

Any person of integrity would indignantly denounce people who would
deny all historical evidence to the contrary on the basis of such a
report. Any person of integrity would label as a fool any historian who
is so injudicious that he would trash his career by uncritically
accepting so foolish a document as the Leuchter Report. Any person with
a serious interest in history would be extremely wary of works produced
by an amateur historian too vain to read the analytical work of other
historians, or by an amateur forensic scientist with no  formal
training in science or understabnding of either the general theory of
gas chamber design, or the chemical properties of cyanide gas.


> > >Possibly so but such survivors would have possessed in Western eyes a
> > >credibility
> > >that Russian officers and officials could never have possessed.
> >
> > What the hell does this have to do with what the Nazis thought process was?
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It has THIS to do with it: If they HAD committed those mass murders, they
> would
> have been perfectly aware that somebody was going to be made to answer for it.
> After all, for 12 years Hitler had been pounding into them what a
> Jew-controlled
> country America was. Do you imagine that none of this had sunk in? Regarding
> the
> survivors, the camp officials would have had one thought and one thought
> only. They
> must NOT be allowed to tell their tales to Allied intelligence people.
> 
> =============================================

The cat was already out of the bag, because many massacres, such as the
systematic extermination of the Jews in Liepaja and Riga were conducted
in public, photographed, filmed, and reported in the media. The Nazis
sometimes advertised their atrocities - you do remember how they filmed
the operation when they wiped Lidice of the map in revenge for the
assassination of Reinhard Heydrich?.

> > >> Marching them west away from the Soviets in mid winter,
> > >> thereby affecting the deaths of the vast majority of those marched out of
> > >> Auschwitz, was the alternative.
> 
> ================================
> Phillips
> 
> If their deaths was the Nazis' object then why not kill them at the camps,
> rather
> than dragging along additional mouths to feed who were bound to slow down the
> westward march.
> 
> ==========================================

1. They tried shooting them at Auschwitz, but found that, with the
Soviet Army rapidly approaching, they had neither the time nor the
resources to shoot the more than 60,000 people still interned.
2. They didn't drag along any additional mouths to feed. Court trials
on these death marches show that, for the most part, the inmates were
made to march without being fed at all.
3. The purpose of the westward march was to ensure that as many inmates
would drop dead or be shot along the road as possible. None had winter
clothing, many lacked shoes and were marching in the winter snow
barefoot. 

The 118 Jewish women from the Helmbrecht's death march found on May 7,
1945 by the 5th Infantry Division of the US Army in Volary,
Czechoslovakia, were in such a horrible condition that the captain
writing the report stated: "My first glance at these individuals was
one of extreme shock not ever believing that a human being can be
degraded, can be starved, can be so skinny and even live under such
conditions."

> >
> > >Alternative to what. That is exactly what they DID do.
> >
> > To murdering them in the camps, obviously. What other option was there?
> >
> > >> Indeed, when the Nazis had marched the inmates
> > >> as far west as possible, and approached contact with the American and
> > >British
> > >> armies, they then began to march the remnants north and south as the two
> > >> approaching armies narrowed the vise on Germany.
> >
> > >To what end?
> >
> > To permit as many as possible to die.
> 
> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> THen why not kill them at the camps?
> 
> =======================

Mass killings take time and organization, and in the state of chaos
that Auschwitz and many of the other camps were in during the final
days precluded the mass shootings that were otherwise a standard
procedure for liquidating camps. The best way to maintain control was
to deathmarch the prisoners who were able to walk, and abandon those
unable to walk for the Soviets to deal with, something which would slow
them down and divert their resources, as, indeed, happened.
Deathmarching prisoners provided camp personnel with a human shield
against arial bombing, and in several instances they provided a
diversionary cover allowing accompanying personnel to vanish before the
Americans or British could arrest them.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed Jul 25 13:49:45 EDT 2001
Article: 932484 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Irving "No objective, fair-minded historian"
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2001 13:38:30 +0300
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In article <3B5BB35E.38D0F9A6@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:


> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> THe sources are the testimonies of survivors, camp personnel, and
certain officials.
> IF you had solid physical evidetce, those testimonies could serve as
corroboration.

There *is* solid physical evidence: the traces of cyanide compounds in
precisely the places where testimonies of survivors, camp personnel, and
certain officials, as well as architectural diagrams, indicate were once
the locations of gas chambers or ventilation ducts. Thee examination were
carried out by the Poles in 1945, by Leuchter in 1988, and by the IFRC in
1999 and 1994. All of them found traces of cyanide compounds on the ruins
of walls and ducts where other evidence indicates were once parts of gas
chambers. You also forget that the concentration and death camps were
being operated from overlapping bureaucracies in Berlin, and that these
contain train deportation schedules, budget allocations, and tens of
thousands of other documents pertaining to the implementation of the
extermination program.



> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Since you do not, the unsupported testimonies are worthless - most
especially as
> they are known to have been obtained by low trickery, threats to turn a
prisoner's
> family over to the Russkies, and by out-and-out torture.
> 
> ================================

If you make such claims, you have to back it up.
1. Whose testimony was obtained by "low rickery"?
2. Who was given the threat that his family would be turned over to the
Soviets, and why should such a threat be any worse than the situation
whoever was involved as in already?
3. Who was tortured? Before you mention Rudolf Hoess remember that he was
captured when living under an assumed identity, and he resisted arrest.
His testimony months later at Nuremberg was in the capacity of a witness,
not a defendant. He wrote is memoirs in the comfort of his prison cell
when awaiting the implementation of his death sentence.


You also have to answer the following questions:
1. Where did the traces of cyanide compounds found in the ruins of
structures other evidence indicates were gas chambers come from?
2. Why did artist and ex-Sonderkommando member David Olière's detailed
drawings of the Auschwitz-Birkenau gas chambers match up so perfectly with
the description of the structures in Rudolf Hoess's memoirs?
3. Why did Walter Dejaco make a last-minute change in his design for the
access way to the Gas chamber in Krema II at Auschwitz-Birkenau from a
shute to a winding stairway?
4. Why did Dr. Hans Munch testify at Nuremberg and at Cracow that he had
witnessed a gassing at Auschwitz?
5. Why did Auschwitz inmates at the same Cracow trial testify that Munch
had done everything humanly possible to prevent them from being selected
for gassing?
6. Why was knowledge of mass-gassings at Auschwitz so widely known by the
spring of 1944 that the two Swedish diplomats Raoul Wallenberg and Per
Anger risked their lives to issue thousands of Budapest Jews Swedish
travel documents, at the same time as Adolf Eichmann was arresting Jews
and sedning them to Auschwitz by the trainload?

Before ending, let's consider some of the testimony of Dr. Hans Frank, the
Governor General of the parts of Poland incorporated into the Reich gy
Hitler.

Source:
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/franktest.html


Testimony of Hans Frank
Hans Frank was examined by his defense attorney, Dr. Alfred Seidl. 

[Testimony on 4/18/1946] 


DR. SEIDL: Did you ever participate in the annihilation of Jews? 
FRANK: I say "yes;" and the reason why I say "yes" is because, having
lived through the 5 months of this trial, and particularly after having
heard the testimony of, the witness Hoess, my conscience does not allow me
to throw the responsibility solely on these minor people. I myself have
never installed an extermination camp for Jews, or promoted the existence
of such camps; but if Adolf Hitler personally has laid that dreadful
responsibility on his people, then it is mine too, for we have fought
against Jewry for years; and we have indulged in the most horrible
utterances?my own diary bears witness against me. Therefore, it is no more
than my duty to answer your question in this connection with "yes." A
thousand years will pass and still this guilt of Germany will not have
been erased. 





Regards,
Eugene Holman



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