The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:54 EDT 2001
Article: 889884 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Is Fred Leuchter a liar?
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:11:33 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AE4499E.37269B0C@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 


> > ***********************************************************************
> > Source: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/leuchter-04.html
> >
> > [Quoted verbatim from Leuchter's cross-examination by Pearson, in the
> > Zündel trial, pages 9247-9250].
> >
> > Q. So, on page seventeen when it says that rodents can be killed with only
> > 1.2 grams grams per cubic metre, we're talking about a concentration in
> > excess of 833 parts per million?
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> How did the judge know this? 

If he is an experienced judge, this was not the first forensic report he
had ever seen. He could tell a professionally done one from an amateurish
sham. If he knew that a case dealing with the degree to which conclusions
about the lethality of HCN based upon readings of cyanide compounds found
in places where it was used almost half a century previously was coming
up, we would expect him to have acquired some knowledge about the chemical
properties of cyanide, including its lethality to humans and other
organisms, and the long-term stablity of these compounds under different
conditions.

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
>The first figure is grammes per cubic metre OF AIR. The
> second figure, parts per million, is a dimensionless number. You cannot
translate
> the first to the second without knowing the density of the lethal agent.
Does the
> judge presume to know this.
> 
> ================================

The second figure gave the number of molecules of lethal agent per million
molecules of air. Once you know the molecular weight of HCN, you can
easily convert from one measuring system to the other.

> >
> > Q. Well, they are talking about a time of exposure that varies greatly
> > from 2 to 72 hours. If you read what they've written, they say "various
> > types of pests react differently to hydrocyanic acid. Rodents can be
> > killed with only 1.2 grams per cubic metre," and then they say "Larger
> > Bacon Beetles require twenty times as much. Times of exposure also vary
> > greatly," so I suggest that they're talking about to kill beetles.
> >
> > A. This may well be. I've never killed beetles. I, you know, I don't know.
> > I haven't made computations for killing beetles.
> >
> > Q. Well sir, I know you haven't but you've come here and you've told the
> > jury some conclusions.
> >
> > A. That's correct.
> >
> > Q. and I want to ask you about your answer to me. I said it takes a higher
> > concentration of hydrogen cyanide to exterminate insects than it does to
> > kill human beings. You said no.
> 
> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> Did Leuchter flatly say "no" to this. If he did then certainly he was in
error.
> 
> ====================================

He shows here that he was unsure about the relative lethality of HCN for
people as opposed to insects. When told 'You said no', Leuchter didn't
dispute the claim.

> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> All the judge has succeeded in establishing is that it takes more HCN to
kill bugs
> than it does to kill humans and that Leuchter fumbled the question. I
see this a
> possibly discrediting but hardly damning.
> 
> ==============================

Not more, but *lots* more:

> > Q. 16,600. So what Degesh are saying, the people who make the product, is
> > that if you want to kill beetles, you should have a concentration of -- of
> > what sir?
> >
> > A. 16,600, apparently.
> >
> > Q. Right. and it takes three hundred parts per million to kill a human
> > being in a matter of minutes?
> >
> > A. Or more.
> >
> > Q. In a matter of minutes.
> >
> A. Twenty minutes, fifteen minutes, yes.
> >
> > Q. Right. And here they are talking about a time of exposure from 2 to 72
> > hours, right?
> >
> > A. Right.

The difference between the concentrations - 16,000 ppm vs. 300 ppm - and
the exposure time - 120 to 4320 minutes vs. 15 to 20 minutes vs. -
involves *several orders of magnitude* (1,920,000 to 69,120,000 vs. 4,500
to 6,000 [ppm * minutes]), but Leuchter showed that he didn't even
understand which figure ought to have been larger. This is gross and
unacceptable incompetence for a person drawing up a report arguing that
the amount of cyanide traces in a specific enviornment after almost half a
century is inconsistent with that environment having been repeatedly
exposed to concentrations of the gas sufficient for committing mass
murder.

He reveals here that he really does not know what he is talking about.


> > ***********************************************************************
> > Source:
> >
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/qualifications-as-witness.html
> >
> > THE COURT: How do you function as an engineer if you don't have an
> > engineering degree?
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Clearly the judge is suffering from a terminal case of credentialitis. I
happen to
> know personally of severl engineers who do precisely that: function AS
engineers.
> One of them ws the Chief Engineer of his compnay.
> 
> ======================================

No problem with that. The problem is whether statements made by such an
uncredentialed "informal" engineer can be used as expert witness in a
court of law, particularly after it has been demonstrated that this person
1. has no engineering credentials, 2. has never studied engineering, 3.
lacks even the most basic understanding of the concentrations and periods
of exposure for HCN needed to kill humans as opposed to insects, 4. does
not understand that variables such as the different histories of the two
environments since 1944 must also be taken into consideration when
assessing the figures, 5. uses one of the two comparanda as a control, 6. uses a
sampling technique rendering the samples inappropriate for making
quantitative assessments.

His lack of credentials does not *a priori* exclude him from serving as an
expert witness, but that, combined with his elack of requisite studies,
manifest ignorance of even the most basic properties of the main substance
under discussion, and methodological gaffes cast the gravest doubt on his
ability to submit testimony in the capacity of any kind of an expert.

> > As citations from Leuchter's report were read, the judge's impatience
> > intensified. He characterized Leuchter's methodology as 'ridiculous' and
> > 'preposterous.'
> 
> =====================================
> Philips
> 
> And just what training did the JUDGE have that entitled him to make
ex-cathedra
> pronunciamentos of that sort?
> 
> =======================================

As an experienced judge he had evidently had previous experience with
forensic reports. Certainly the fact that Leuchter does not take crucial
variables such as the solubility of cyanide compounds in water, the
different hydrological, meteorological, architectural, and archeological
histories of the places studied, or the role played in both short-term
formation dynamics and long-term preservation by different types of
structural materials, questions that a report of this type must
necessarily address, into consideration indicates that the work is the
product of an amateur. 

Physical evidence has to be evaluated just like any other kind of
evidence. It is neither better nor worse, and it is more reliable if the
variables which contributed to the final readings have also been given
proper consideration. This is why Leuchter's figures *as figures* do not
disturb anybody. A difference in the readings for cyanide compounds by a
factor of even three orders of magnitude between a place which had been a
gas chamber as opposed to a fumigation chamber would not have been
surprising. One need only consider the vastly different histories the two
environments had, both when the compounds were being formed and after one
type of environment wound up being exposed to the elements in 1944, with
the other being completely protected from the elements, not to mention the
possibility that the structural materials of the two environments were
different and thus also played a role in long-term retention.

Ideally, when making a comparison we say "ceteris paribus and all other
things being equal". Leuchter ignored this important aspect of the act of
comparison, presenting the results of a symple synchronic comparison with
no information at all on the longitudinal factors and variables which
affected the two different environments. This is why the judge recognized
it for what it was: "scientific garbage".

> >  "I discussed your request with Mr. Nathan A. RICE, Former Warden, and he
> > stated that he vaguely recalled a telephone conversation between him and a
> > gentleman professing to be an expert on execution chambers. Mr. Rice
> > further state that the gentleman called him for the purpose of selling a
> > lethal injection machine...
> >
> >  "Also, our records do not support that Mr. Leuchter performed either
> > consulting or any service...I can attest that the planning and work was
> > performed
> >  by the Department of Correction Engineering Section and our institution
> > maintenance department." Signed: Gary T. Dixon, Warden NC
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Can we entirely dismiss the possibility tht these prison officials,
whose superiors
> realized tht they had been placed in a hornet's nest, were placed under strict
> orders to deny or at least lay down any connection with Leuchter?
> 
> =======================================

Orders from whom? I would suspect that any prison officer who had been
dealing with Leuchter but read about this gas chamber "expert's" total
ignorance with respect to basic properties of HCN would disassociate
himself with the man and his company as quickly as possible, just as there
were many cancellations of bookings on the Black Star Line after the
Titanic sank.

> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I do not agree with your conclusion that Leuchter was laughed out of court.

He came there to served as an expert witness. He was not allowed to
testify in that capacity, nor was his report accepted by the court as
expert evidence. He demonstrated himself to lack the academic
qualifications for engineering, to cavalierly dismiss the need for such
qualifications, and to be ignorant about the fundamental properties of the
substance the expert witness's report was dealing with. I call that being
laughed out of court.

> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It
> appears to me that he did not handle himself too well under an extremely
hostile
> examination. (It would have required enormous strength of character and
> self-possession for him to have done much better.)
> 
> Moreover, certain things make me curious about that judge. Our ideal is
that a judge
> is supposed to be impartial; the reality is that, being as they are
human, they
> rarely are. HIs obvious hostility can be attributed to the fact that,
faced with
> Holocaust denial, he was being confronted with something that outraged his
> entrenched belief system. Also, it seems he had at his fingertips
knowledge that are
> not usually part of a judge's store. Could it be that somebody "helped"
him with his
> homework. 
> 
> My own conclusions are that Leuchter did not show up too well under an
extremely
> hostile cross-examination
> ========================================================

Leuchter prepared an obviously amateurish report dealing with issues he
was incompetent to study. The judge recognized that the report was
amateurish, and upon further examination he recognized that Leuchter was
a rank amateur as well, which, of course, he demonstrated by his own admission
and statements.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:54 EDT 2001
Article: 889903 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Question of Relevance
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 18:22:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 130
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In article <3B0C3DB6@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
 wrote:

> >===== Original Message From holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) =====
> >In article <3B03667D@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
> > wrote:
 
>       One other thing was probably known to the Nazis--and to anyone else: 
> any 
> small gasoline engine could have done a better job without any problems. 

That was evidently _not_ as much a given to the Nazis as you may think,
or, alternatively, they wanted to see if diesel engines, of which they
might have had a surplus, could do the job efficiently enough to justify
using them. There were three "Aktion Reinhard" camps, Belzec, Treblinka,
and Sobibor. Belzec was the first one opened, and it initially used diesel
engines, while the other two had normal internal combustion engines.
Diesel engines did noot demonstrate themselves to be as efficiant as
gasoline engines (no surprise), and Belzec eventually went over to normal
engines. All three "AktionReinhard" camps eventually went over to the even
more efficient, and as fuel shortages became more accute, increasingly
cheaper, Zyklon-B.

> We 
> are supposed to believe the technically proficient Germans used a cumbersome 
> Russian tank diesel engine and forced it to run inefficiently just to kill 
> people.

We are supposed to believe that the Germans realized the magnitude and
unprecedentedness of the project confronting them and did not, so to
speak, want to put all of their eggs in one basket. The mobile gas vans
used at Chelmno might have seemed clever on paper, but they proved
themselves messy and impractical in actual use.

Any well thought-out plan having a goal as complex as the extermination of
more than 11,000,000 people (as stated in the Wannsee Protocol of January
20, 1942) is going to begin as various pilot projects, with the more
viable solutions eventually pushing the less viable ones out. As it
happens, public mass shootings were replaced by mobile gas chambers.
Mobile gas chambers were replaced by stationary gas chambers. Stationary
gas chambers were constructed which used as their lethal agent compressed
CO, as had been used in the T4 project, as well as exhaust gas CO from
diesel and normal internal combustion engines. At his own initiative,
Lagermeister Karl Fritsch at Auschwitz experimented with the use of
Zyklon-B in a gas chamber improvised in the detention cellar of a block at
Auschwitz-Stammlager on September 3, 1941. The feedback from all of these
variant gassing modalities went back to the various bureaucracies in
Berlin who were designing and building concentrtion camps on the one hand,
and trying to maintain the utmost secrecy about extermination camps on the
other. It eventually precipitated the conclusion that the most efficient
and easily concealed way to commit clandestine mass exterminations on this
immense scale was to concentrate operations on  the smallest possible
number of discretely hidden mass extermination centers using non-technical
Zyklon-B gas chambers which blended into their surroundings and were
erected at camps which had a reputation of being hard labor or transit
camps.

>From the standpoint of a holistic conceptualiztion of efficiency: getting
the job done, concealing it from the intended victims and the environment,
using a cheap and easily managed lethal agent, and ensuring that one phase
of the process was finished before the next one was begun, diesel gas
chambers turned out to be an interesting but non-viable dead end in the
evolutionary path that resulted in the subterranean mechanically
ventilated Zyklon-B gas chambers in Auschwitz Kremas II, III, and the even
more efficient and ergonomical ground-level cross-ventilated gas chambers
at Kremas IV and V.

>      Let's visualize this ridiculous claim.  The air intake of the engine is 
> blocked.  The exhaust is directed into a sealed room, causing back pressure 
> and thus restricting the exhaust.  Even under normal conditions, diesels 
> produce large amounts of soot.  Restrict the air intake and the soot 
> production increases dramatically.  Large amounts of heavy black smoke would 
> immediately fill the room like a thick fog.  The engine exhaust normally 
> contains large amounts of water so everything in the room would soon be 
> drenched.  The room would fill with other compounds--nitrous oxide, sulfur 
> dioxide, and others--which immediately cause severe headaches, lung 
> irritation, nausea, and vomiting. The engine would sputter and jerk, and all 
> the while the people in the room would suffer incredible pain and discomfort 
> yet would remain concious, some for as long as an hour.  Even after they all 
> pass out, some probably would still be alive.

Wrong. If the engine was generating exhaust with 6% CO (= 60,000 ppm) and
there was no other source of ambient air, everyone in the closed room
forced to breath the stuff would be dead within a few minutes.

Source: http://www.ae.iastate.edu/aen172.htm

3,200 ppm   Concentration inside charcoal grill (Griner, single example).
headache, dizziness and nausea within 5-20 minutes. Quickly impaired
thinking. Death within 30 minutes.

6,400 ppm   Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 1-2 minutes. Thinking
impaired before response possible. Death within 10-15 minutes.

12,800 ppm  Death within 1-3 minutes


These are admittedly benchmarks, but it should be obvious that a tweeked
diesel motor does not have to be run for anything like an hour before all
the people in a closed, sealed room forced to breath its CO-bearing
exhaust and nothing else would be dead of either CO poisoning or of the
pandemonium and crush generated when the people trapped in the room, many
of them children, babies, and elderly people, tried to break their way out
after understanding what was happening to them.

>     No doubt, the rabid German haters who love to repeat Holocaust lore are 
> ready to believe the Germans were both stupid and incredibly cruel, but I 
> hope the majority of rational people who give the matter even minimum thought 
> will reject such obvious propaganda fabrications.

As you can see, you don't know what you are talking about. If the diesel
engine had been tweeked to emit exhaust having only a fifth of the CO
content I mentioned, death would still ensue quickly. The Nazis, who had
gained considerable experience killing people using CO within the
framework of the T4 eithansia program, did give some considerations to the
ethical aspects of genocide.

Fibnally, please don't don't make the mistake of identifying Germans with
Nazis. Not all Germans were Nazis between 1933 and 1945, neither,
conversely, were all Nazis Germans. Being opposed to Nazism and its
misanthropic practices does not make a person anti-German. Neither should
we forget that both the chief Nazi, Adolf Hitler (born in
Austria-Hungary), and the individual primarily responsible for elaborating
the racial philosophy underlying the practical policy of eliminating
social problems and cleaning up the Aryan living space by genocide, Alfred
Rosenberg (born in Estonia, then a province of Russia), were both economic
immigrants, Gastarbeiter, to Germany.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:54 EDT 2001
Article: 889928 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips and Matthews. Who's an engineer
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 19:20:13 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AE5FBC7.339BA5E5@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
>
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> There were two trials, one in '85 and a second in '88. I wold hardly
call either
> one a "fiasco." Zuendel's defence counsel (I believe at both trials) was
a Douglas
> Christie who (on the basis of wht I have read) impressed me as little short of
> brilliant. OF course, my sources are different from yours.
> 
> =============================================================================

Zündel lost them both. 

Would you call David Irving's recent vanity trial in London a "fiasco"? I would.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:55 EDT 2001
Article: 890256 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In the Nazis' Words -- Himmler: "the constantly smoking crematory"
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:44:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B333C3D@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
 wrote:

> >===== Original Message From Johann Sebastian Bot  =====
> >
> >Letter from Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler to SS-Oberfuehrer Brack, 19 December
> >1940.
> >
> >Dear Brack,
> >
> >I hear there is great excitement on the Alb because of the Grafeneck
> >Institution.
> >
> >The population recognizes the gray automobiles of the SS and think they
> >know what is going on at the constantly smoking crematory. What happens
> >there is a secret and yet is no longer one. Thus the worst feeling has
> >arisen there, and in my opinion there remains only one thing, to
> >discontinue the use of the institution in this place and in any event
> >disseminate information in a clever and sensible manner by showing motion
> >pictures on the subject of inherited and mental diseases in just that
> >locality.
> >
> >May I ask for a report as to how the difficult problem is solved?
> 
> 
> 
>      It's commendable that Holocaust promoters are outraged by Germany's 
> euthanisia program in the 1930's.  I agree that it was a terrible thing, 
> even 
> considering Germany's depressed economy caused by unreasonable reparations 
> and 
> a worldwide boycott.  But that was 60 years ago--they don't do that any 
> more.  
> Now, why would promoters of the Holocaust keep harping on the euthanasie 
> program? 

Because it was a dress rehearsal for the Holocaust.

> It had nothing to do with the Holocaust; 

It has everything to do with the Holocaust. In addition to providing the
Holocaust with methodologies and personnel, it also provided the Nazi
government with valuable experience impelementing, justifying, and
concealing a state-sanctioned program of mass murder. There is also
evidence that T4 and the Aktion Reinhard camps both received their daily
orders directly from the Führer's Chancellery at Tiergartenstraße 4 (T4)
[see below].

> nothing to do with the Jews of Germany. 

The Holocaust, 95% of whose Jewish victims were Jews of countries other
than Germany, had arguably little to do with the Jews of Germany.

The T4 euthanasia program, though, did have something to do with the Jews
of Germany. Potential candidates for euthanasia were evaluated according
to many criteria. One of them was race, and being Jewish was regarded by
the Nazis as a racial defect. Thus, all other things being equal, an
institutionalized patient who has racially Jewish had a higher probability
of being selected for euthanasia than a patient who was not.

> What is the purpose of constantly bringing that up in a 
> newsgroup 
> dedicated to discussing the Holocaust?  

The fact that one fed into the other, and that both were practical
implementations of Nazi racial philosophy. Gas chamber know-how,
administrative experience, and T4-trained personnel such as Chistian Wirth
and Franz Stangl went on to the Aktion Reinhard camps. Euthanasia and
sterlization, known
collectively as "racial hygiene", was the Nazi policy for dealing with
what it regarded as threats to the Aryan race from within. The killing of
racial enemies such as Jews, Gypsies, and Poles, was the Nazi policy for
dealing with threats to the Aryan race and its living space, current or
future, from without. In today's terminology the euthanasia program and
the extermination of races regarded as inferior such as Jews, Gypsies, and
Poles, would be called ethnic cleansing.

> Just to make the German look bad?

No, to make the Nazis look bad. After approximately 100,000 German
invalids, deformed and terminally ill people had been killed within the
framework of the euthanasia program, archbishop Clemens von Galen
delivered a sermon on August 3, 1941 which was distributed throughout
Germany in which he spoke out strongly to the German nation against the
immorality of this program of mass murder. Although Germany was subject to
wartime censorship and
administration, the sermon caused such a shock nationally and
internationally that Hitler was forced to temporarily interrupt the
program (http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/galen.htm).

On the administrative and other links between T4 and Aktion Reinhard,
consider the following:

From:
THE MEN BEHIND HITLER
A German warning to the world
by Bernhard Schreiber

Source: http://www.mentalhealth.faithweb.com/behindhitler/finalsol.html


CHAPTER VII
                             THE PSYCHIATRIC FINAL SOLUTION
                                      TO THE JEWISH QUESTION

The Nazi extermination camps need to be clearly distinguished from the
concentration camps opened a few months after the Nazi accession to power
with the establishment of Dachau (near Munich). The extermination camps
had not followed in the line of progression of the concentration camps,
but had a quite separate evolution of their own, which up to now has
puzzled many students of the subject. However, with what we know about
psychiatric plans we can fit the apparently unprecedented in its place in
the logical sequence of the psychiatric-eugenic programme. The
extermination camps, the apex of development on the sterilisation,
castration, and euthanasia chain of evolution could be considered to be
the full flowering of the plans laid by the psychiatrists and on the basis
of experience gained in the euthanasia programme were the perfection of
murder on assembly line basis.

The names of the camps were Belsec, Treblinka, Sobibor and Chelmno and
they were established between 1941 and 1943. A number of features
distinguish these extermination camps from the better known concentration
camps including the following:

    1.They were all situated in Poland usually in a desolate, virtually
uninhabited area.
    2.Their only purpose was to kill Jews as quickly, efficiency,
economically, and profitably as possible.
    3.Although being run on the spot by the SS and their auxiliaries,
daily orders came from a different source. 

Without going into too many horrifying details, it would be as well to
give a brief picture of how the extermination camps operated.

The camps resembled very closely a mass-production line in a modern
industrial plant. Nothing was wasted. When a transport full of Jewish
victims rolled into the nearby station the "passengers" were herded into
the camp and had to surrender their valuables and currency supposedly for
safe-keeping. They were then taken to changing rooms where they stripped,
their clothes being later sent to a charity relief in Germany, and were
horse-whipped into the death chambers and gassed. When they were all dead
the doors were opened and bodies pulled out and hosed down by the Jewish
commandos, mouths were inspected, gold teeth removed and later remitted to
the Reichsbank and the various cavities of the body were explored for
other hidden valuables.

Prior to the gassing, of course, the hair had been shaved from the heads
of the women. This had been found to be very useful for knitting felt
slippers for U-boat crews. Having searched the corpses for valuables they
were then loaded into railway wagons and taken to the crematorium. After
burning, the bones were ground in a bone-crushing mill and sacked up,
ashes also being put in sacks and both of these sent back to Germany to be
used as fertiliser. There was even a formula for their use 1 layer of
ashes 1 layer of bone and 1 layer of
earth.

Although there are a number of other cases on record, I shall give just
two examples which show where the orders for the camps came from. On
August 7-8, 1946, at Nuremberg, Sturmbannführer Georg Konrad Morgen, an SS
judge gave evidence on behalf of the SS as an indicted organisation.
Morgen had been transferred in July 1943 from the SS Military Courts to
the Criminal Police at Himmler's request. His job was the investigation of
embezzlement in concentration camps. In following up cases of corruption
in the camps, he stumbled upon some top secret evidence. Morgen's argument
at the Nuremberg trials was that the extermination camps were not run by
the SS at all. Apparently in the summer of 1943 he heard from the
commander of the
Security Police and SD in the Lublin region of Poland that there had been
a wedding in a Jewish labour camp which had been attended by 1100 guests
including many German SS men. Morgen amazed at this weird tale looked
further and in doing so came across another camp, "rather peculiar and
impenetrable" which was run by Christian Wirth, who confirmed the story of
the Jewish wedding and explained that it was part of a plan by which Wirth
hoped to persuade Jews to serve in the camps where they would assist in
the exterminations.

Although the four camps had been mentioned earlier in the Nuremberg
trials, this was the first clue concerning their ultimate headquarters.
Morgen insisted that the administration of the camps was actually not in
SS hands having seen Wirth's daily orders. These did not come from
Himmler's Office but from the Führer's Chancellery (T4) and had been
signed "Blankenberg". Morgen's evidence was the only clue to the true
command lines of the Jewish extermination programme.

This was confirmed years later in the recent trial of the notorious Franz
Stangl. He was an Austrian policeman who automatically became a member of
the Austrian Gestapo following the Anschluss. In November 1940 he was
transferred to the General Foundation for institutional Care, one of the
T4 front groups. He was told to report to a Dr. Werner at the
Reichskriminalpolizeiamt in Berlin.

Werner told him that he'd been selected for a very difficult and demanding
job of police superintendent at a special institute administered by the
Foundation. Werner explained to him that both Russia and America had for
some time had a law which allowed them to carry out mercy killings (this
of course was not true) on people who were insane or badly deformed. He
explained that a law was going to be passed in Germany in the near future
but it was going to be done only after a great deal of psychological
preparation. However, in the meantime
the task had begun under absolute secrecy.

He then went on to explain that the patients selected for the action were
carefully examined and a series of tests were carried out by at least two
physicians and only those absolutely incurable were put to a totally
painless death. Stangl was told that all he had to do was to be
responsible for law and order in the institute and not actually involved
in the operation himself, this being carried out entirely by doctors. He
was to be responsible for maintaining maximum security.

After his talk with Werner, Stangl reported to the KdF. He recalled that
he thought it was Brack who greeted him at T4, explained to him his
specific police duties and left him the choice of where he should be
posted. He decided to be posted to Austria where he would be near his
family. He was given a telephone number and the name of a village where he
was to go and make a `phone call and would be given instructions.' He
carried out the instructions for making contact and was driven to
Hartheim.

After arrival he met the doctors and Captain Christian Wirth, who was his
superior in his duties. Wirth apparently didn't bother too much with the
scientific justifications that the psychiatrists employed, because as he
said, sentimental slobber about such people made him puke. The two chief
medical officers were Dr. Lohnauer and Dr. Renno and in addition to these
there were 14 nurses; 7 men and 7 women. Hartheim was set up and run as a
hospital where examinations were given and Stangl's job was to see that
such things as identity
papers and certificates for the mental patients were dealt with and done
correctly.

After Hartheim, Stangl took a brief tour of duty at another euthanasia
institute, Bernberg and after that was told to report back to T4 to get
new orders. In the interview he was informed that he had a choice either
to return to his former police post (where he hadn't in fact got on very
well with his superiors) or go to Lublin, in Poland. He decided on the
latter and was
told to report to Higher SS and Police Chief Odilo Globocnik at SS
Headquarters, Lublin. Globocnik gave him the task of building a new
extermination camp - Sobibor.

Shortly after his arrival at the site that was to be Sobibor, personnel
>from the "euthanasia action" started to arrive. Amongst them were many old
friends from Hartheim and work started on the camp which Stangl was to
command from May until August 1942, when he took over Treblinka until
August 1943.

Although he was able to evade justice after the war he was finally caught
and sentenced in 1970 to life imprisonment for co-responsibility in the
murder of 400,000 men, women and children in Treblinka during the year of
his command. It is difficult to arrive at even approximate totals of the
number of men, women and children who died in these camps but the
following figures from the Polish Commission for War Crimes will give some
idea of the enormity of the crime:

      Treblinka ... ... ... ... ... ... . 700,000-800,000
      Sobibor ... ... ... ... ... ... ... .. . over 250,000
      Belzec ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... almost 600,000
      Chelmno ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... over 300,000

Interestingly some of the "students" trained in the murder schools were
later traced to the extermination camps, 130 to Belzec, 106 to Sobibor and
90 to Treblinka. Many of these had learned their skills in Hartheim.

As the tide of war turned in the East there was much activity to prevent
the camps falling into Russian hands and being exploited by them for
propaganda purposes. Elaborate precautions were taken to avoid this by
razing the sites level and generally altering the landscape by planting
trees and shrubs etc. Personnel of the camps were dispersed to high risk
war areas. Wirth himself is believed to have been killed by partisans in
Yugoslavia in 1944.

Amongst the "bureaucrats of death" there was the inevitable scramble to
evade the Allied armies as they closed in on the Reich. Some were
successful, others not. Philip Bouhler committed suicide as the Russians
approached Berlin and Leonardo Conti also in his cell at Nuremberg. Karl
Brandt was caught, sentenced and executed.

The Limburg trial planned in 1961 was concerned with some of the top
psychiatrists and bureaucrats, one of whom was the eminent psychiatrist
Professor Dr. Werner Heyde super expert in T4. In the preceding years he
had adopted an alias, being known as Dr. Sawade and had practised openly
in Germany. He had done a variety of work for a state insurance agency,
and law courts. Many people including Judges, Prosecutors, physicians,
university professors and high state officials knew his identity. And they
preserved the conspiracy of
silence. Whilst awaiting trial he attempted to escape. Five days before
the trial at a time when he was left unguarded, he committed suicide.

His co-defendants in the trial also managed to escape justice. Dr.
Friedrich Tillman for 10 years prior to 1945 Director of Cologne
orphanages jumped (or was pushed) from a tenth-storey window; another Dr.
Bohne escaped on the Nazi escape-route to South America. The fourth
Defendant, Dr. Hans Hefelmann, chief of section IIb ("mercy killing") in
the Chancellery of the Führer was declared medically unable to stand trial
due to illness. It seems that people in high places didn't want these
trials to take place.

Another personality who was questioned during the preparation of the same
trial was Dr. Werner Villinger, who has been credited with being
instrumental in starting the mental hygiene movement in pre-war Germany,
and re-starting the same movement as a mental health movement after the
war. An eminent psychiatrist who, two years before Hitler came to power,
had advocated the sterilisation of patients with hereditary diseases, he
was convinced that the roots of what we call temperament and character lay
deep in the inherited constitution. At the time of his questioning for the
Limburg trial it became known publicly that he was implicated in the
euthanasia murders in a prominent and very active role. He went into the
mountains and committed suicide. A former colleague and assistant of his
Dr. Helmut Ehrhardt, in an obituary published in the journal "Der
Nervenarzt" [The Nerve Doctor] explained Dr. Villager's sad demise as an
accident and with much sorrow, regretted his passing, and mourned the loss
for humanity of such a wonderful and humane man.

However, for those who survived the war, did not commit suicide, and were
still at large, there was at least one place where they could appear with
impunity in an understanding community who welcomed their talents and
shared their viewpoint.


Your claim:

> It had nothing to do with the Holocaust; nothing to do with the Jews 
> of Germany. 

reveals a very superficial knowledge of the inner workings of, or of the
ideological premises underlying, the Third Reich.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:55 EDT 2001
Article: 890277 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen: Order by von Runstedt on Wehrmacht E-gruppen Contacts
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:44:48 +0300
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In article <20010424233630.14742.00000843@ng-mb1.aol.com>,
philnancy@aol.com (Philip Mathews) wrote:

> In >Message-id: <3B23221A@MailAndNews.com>
> 
> >Gustave Morgan morghus@MailAndNews.com wrote:
> 


> 
> >      Von Runstedt's order is clear evidence that the German high command 
> >considered the Ukrainian population's action against the Jews excessive.
> 
> No it isn't. It is evidence that the  Nazis, ever punctilious, wanted to make
> it clear to the army that they could not participate in the excesses
> perpetrated by the Ukrainians, since that responsibility is invested in the
> Sondekommando.

Sorry to be pedantic here, but the term that you want is
"Einsatzkommando", special action paramilitary squads whose assigment it
was to follow the Wehrmacht into newly conquered territory and kill Jews,
Gypsies, partisans, and suspected communists before they had a chance to
know what had hit them and get away.

The term "Sonderkommando" refers to the concentration camp inmates, often
Jews, who were assigned to clean freshly gassed bodies out of gas chambers
in preparetion for the next phase of the extermination process: cremation
or pit-burial.


>  It 
> >is 
> >also evidence that the Germans never intended to kill the Jews in Eastern 
> >Europe;
> 
> There is nothing in the document, absolutely nothing, which could lead a sane
> human being to that conclusion.
> 
> > instead, they intended to deport them.  
> 
> Nothing about deportation. Just another desperate lie in defense of Nazi
crimes
> against humanity.
> 
> >The Einsatzgruppen was 
> >formed 
> >to gather the Jews together in rail centers and evacuate them Eastward. 
> 
> No it wasn't. It was charged with murdering them by shooting, as over 150
> written reports, post war testimony and other evidence demonstrates.
> 
>  The 
> >stories of mass murder of Jews in Eastern Europe is nothing but WWII 
> >atrocity 
> >propaganda.
> 
> The mass murder of Jews in Eastern Europe is among the most easily proven
> aspect of the Holocaust, so difficult to ignore that deniers such as David
> Irving admit it; and only the most embarrassingly mindless deniers still deny
> it.
> 

One extremely well documented example:

Source: http://www.ej-anders.com/

This site gives information and links relevant to the destruction of the
Jews of Liepaja, Latvia, particuarly concerning a mass shooting arranged
by operatives of Einsatzkommando A with Latvian collaborators starting
with arrests of local Jews on Dec. 13 and ending in mass shootings
committed between the 15th and 17th, 1941, during which 2,749 Jews were
shot. Noteworthy about this Einsatzkommando massacre was that it was
extensively documented
photographically by the Security Police, with the photographs thus obtained then
secretly copied by a survivor, David Zivcon. Some of these photographs may
be viewed at http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/albums/palbum/p02/a0111p2.html. A
detailed presentation of the Einsatzkommando actions against Jews in
Liepaja and other Latvian provincial cities excerpted from from Ch. 9 of
Andrew Ezergailis's, _The Holocaust in Latvia, 1941-44_ can be read by
following the link there to http://www.ej-anders.com/EZERG.PDF.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:55 EDT 2001
Article: 890292 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Take me to your leader!
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:11:38 +0300
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In article <20010425120703.05523.00000993@ng-ct1.aol.com>,
josephboegler@aol.comnojunk (Joseph Boegler) wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote in another thread:
> 
> >At his own initiative,
> >Lagermeister Karl Fritsch at Auschwitz experimented with the use of
> >Zyklon-B in a gas chamber improvised in the detention cellar of a block at
> >Auschwitz-Stammlager on September 3, 1941. The feedback from all of these
> >variant gassing modalities went back to the various bureaucracies in
> >Berlin who were designing and building concentrtion camps on the one hand,
> >and trying to maintain the utmost secrecy about extermination camps on the
> >other. It eventually precipitated the conclusion that the most efficient
> >and easily concealed way to commit clandestine mass exterminations on this
> >immense scale was to concentrate operations on  the smallest possible
> >number of discretely hidden mass extermination centers using non-technical
> >Zyklon-B gas chambers which blended into their surroundings and were
> >erected at camps which had a reputation of being hard labor or transit
> >camps.
> 
> I copied this excerpt from a long post of yours because I want
> to address one particular issue.  National Socialism was built on the 
> Leadership principle.  At the top they had THE LEADER, and everything 
> filtered down.

The National Scialist system of government was also based on a system of
overlapping and ambiguous chains of cammand and responsibility. This
ensured that bureaucrats on the same level could and would compete with
one another, and it made it more difficult to pinpoint reponsibility for
any particular command or its implementation.

> There was one person who was put in charge of each aspect of 
> the Nazi government.  Another principle of National Socialism was 
> that everyone had to obey orders, or they would be shot.  Konrad 
> Morgen was put in charge of investigating the camps for corruption
> and cruelty.  The whole concentration camp system was governed 
> by the head office in Oranienburg, near Berlin.  Before anyone was even
> flogged in any of the concentration camps, they had to get permission
> from the office in Oranienburg.  
> 
> So who was the overall head of the operation to exterminate 
> 11 million Jews?  

Two interlinked bureaucracies were in charge of the extermination program:

1. Obergruppenführer-SS Oswald Pohl's SS Main Administration and Economic
Office. They designed, built, and maintained the camps, of which there
were more than 10,000 all told. Pohl was also responsible for ensuring
that the money received for the property and assets confiscated from the
Jews that were killed wound up in the SS's account at the Reichsbank.

2. Reinhard Heydrich's (subsequently Adolf Eichmann's) SS Security Police
and Security Service. They drew up deportation schedules for various
countries and supplied the necessary transport.

Many sources indicate that SS-Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler was issued an
oral Führerbefehl in accordance with which it was "the Führer's desire" to
exterminate the Jews of Europe, and that he, Himmler, passed it on to
these two bureaucracies under his immediate jurisdiction for
implementation.

In any case, Pohl's bureaucracy was responsible for the design,
construction, and maintenance of the more than 10,000 camps and
extermination centers that Nazi Germany created and maintained throughout
the Nazi-controlled parts of Europe. This required a multibillion
Reichsmark budget since, between 1941 and 1945, his office was, with
millions of unwilling and non-paying "clients", Europe's largest "hotel
and restaurant keeper". Eichmann's bureaucracy was responsible for
providing and coordinating transport to Pohl's empire, as well as for
supervising transfers of monies recieved for confiscated or auctioned-off
Jewish property to the Reichsbank.

> This was a huge undertaking and required a 
> lot of planning.  Who was the head guy in charge of this project?

Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler. He served as the liaison between Hitler
above, and Pohl and Heydrich (> Eichmann) below. In several of his speeches
Himmler boasted of how the Jews were in the process of being exterminated by
the Nazi government:

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/himmler-heinrich/posen/oct-04-43/ausrottung-transl-nizkor.html




      [0:00] What we accomplish in our armaments factories ... even though
it will only be at the end of the war when we can first assess it -- prove
it ...
will be a remarkable and noteworthy accomplishment. [pause] 

      [0:20] I want to also mention a very difficult subject ... before
you, with complete candor. It should be discussed amongst us, yet
nevertheless, we will never speak about it in public. Just as we did not
hesitate on June 30 to carry out our duty as ordered, and stand comrades
who had failed against the wall and shoot them -- about which we have
never spoken, and never will speak. That was, thank God, a kind of tact
natural to us, a foregone conclusion of that tact, that we have never
conversed about it amongst ourselves, never spoken about it, everyone ...
shuddered, and everyone was clear that the next time, he would do the same
thing again, if it were commanded and necessary. 

      [1:27] I am talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the
extermination of the Jewish people[1]. It is one of those things that is
easily said. [quickly] "The Jewish people is being exterminated[2]," every
Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans,
we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating[2] them, a small matter". [less
quickly] And then along they all come, all the 80 million upright Germans,
and each one has his decent Jew. [mockingly] They say: all the others are
swine, but here is a first-class Jew. [a few people laugh] And ...
[audience cough] [carefully] ... none of them has seen it, has endured it.
Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when 500
are there or when there are 1000. And ... to have seen this through and --
with the exception of human weakness -- to have remained decent, has made
us hard and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned.
Because we know how difficult things would be, if today in every city
during the bomb attacks, the burdens of war and the privations, we still
had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and instigators. We would probably
be at the same stage as 16/17, if the Jews still resided in the body of
the German people. 

      [3:23] We have taken away the riches that they had, and ... I have
given a strict order, which Obergruppenführer Pohl[3] has carried out, we
have delivered these riches [carefully] to the Reich, to the State. We
have taken nothing from them for ourselves. A few, who have offended
against this, will be judged[4] in accordance with an order, [loudly] that
I gave at the beginning: he who takes even one Mark of this is a dead man.
[less loudly] A number of SS men have offended against this order. They
are very few, and they will be dead men [yells] WITHOUT MERCY! We have the
moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it, to kill[5] this
people who would kill[5] us. We however do not have the right to enrich
ourselves with even one fur, with one Mark, with one cigarette, with one
watch, with anything. That we do not have. Because we don't want, at the
end of all this, to get sick and die from the same bacillus that we have
exterminated[2]. I will never see it happen that even one ... bit of
putrefaction comes in contact with us, or takes root in us. On the
contrary, where it might try to take root, we will burn it out together.
But altogether we can say: [slowly, carefully] We have carried out this
most difficult task for the love of our people. And we have suffered no
defect within us, in our soul, or in our character. 

Notes: 

    1.The word translated as "people" is "Volk." It is similar to English
"people" in the sense of "a people," having the connotations of a race, a
nation, a populace. There is, however, no perfect single-word translation.
Every occurrence of the word "people" in this text is a translation of
"Volk" (and vice versa). 
    2."Ausrotten." 
    3.In postwar trial testimony, Pohl claimed that it was at this speech
that he received his "first official notification" that the Final Solution
was to be
extermination. 
    4.Himmler never actually got around to saying the verb, "judged," in
this sentence. The German verb would have appeared at the end of the
clause; halfway through, he either lost his train of thought or decided
deliberately to change the sentence's grammatical structure. 
    5."Umbringen." 


Here is another quote giving information on the chain of command.
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln ie being interrogated in Riga in
1945 on the source of orders to kill Jews in the Baltics:

Source: http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler? 

A:  Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in  Riga 
had  been liquidated. And when I was  in  Loetzen,  East  Prussia,  in 
December 1941,  I  reported  in  person, too.[3] Himmler was satisfied
with the results. He said that  more  Jewish convoys were due to arrive in
Latvia, and these were to be liquidated by me also. 

Q: Go into more detail. 

A:  At  the  end  of  January  1942,[4]  I  was  at  Himmler's
headquarters   in   Loetzen,  East   Prussia,   to   discuss 
organizational  matters regarding the  Latvian  SS  legions. There 
Himmler  informed me that additional  Jewish  convoys  were  due to arrive
>from the Reich and from other countries. The  destination point would be
the Salaspils  concentration  camp,  which  lay one and a quarter miles
>from Riga  in  the direction  of Duenaburg. Himmler said that he  had 
not  yet  determined  how he would have them exterminated: whether  to
have  them  shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils,  or  whether to
chase them into the swamp somewhere. 

Q: How was the matter resolved? 

A:  It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker
death. Himmler said he would think it over and  then  give orders later
through Heydrich. 

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from? 

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia,  and from other occupied  countries  to  the  Salaspils
camp. To give a precise count of the Jews  in  the Salaspils camp would be
difficult. In any case, all the Jews  from  this camp were exterminated.
But I would like to  make an additional statement while we are on this
topic. 

Q: What statement would you like to make? 

A:  I would like to state for the record that Goering shares in  the 
guilt  for the liquidations of Jewish convoys  that  arrived  from other
countries. In the first half of February 1942  I  received a letter from
Heydrich. In this letter  he  wrote that Reich Marshal Goering had gotten
himself involved in the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being
shipped to the East for annihilation only with Goering's approval. 



> Who was the guy in charge of devising a method of mass murder?

Some of the most important ones:
€ Kristian Wirth. Originally a police officer from Stuttgart, he wound up
working within the T4 euthansia program designing gas chambers for mass
murder with compressed CO. He was eventually transferred, know-how and
all, to "Aktion Reinhard", in conjunction with which he eventually was
assigned the job to design CO-from-exhaust-gas-using gas chambers for
Belzec. 
€ SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln. He was the mass shooting
specialist who invented the "sardine packing" method of killing people in
pre-dug multilayered mass graves. Jeckeln oversaw the mass murders in
Riga, Kiev, Staro-Kamensk, Dnepropetrovsk, and other locations in the
Baltics and Ukraine. He is an important figure because feedback from his
operations in the field to Berlin eventually convinced the bureaucracies
there that mass murders in which the victims were shot exceeding 20,000
victims were logistical nightmares to arrange and implement.
€ SS-Lagerführer Karl Fritsch. On September 3, 1941, when Rudolf Höß was
away on business, Fritsch improvised a gas chamber at Block 11 in
Auschwitz-Stammlager and gassed a group of 850 Soviet POWs using Zyklon-B.
The experiment was not a total success, but it indicated that this cheap
and abundant substance could be used for mass murder.

> Who was the architect that they appointed to design the gas 
> chambers?  

Georg Werkmann and Walther Dejaco
(http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/auschwitz/crematoria/k2-construct-docs-02.html).

> 
> You tell us that Karl Fritsch "experimented" with killing prisoners 
> on his own initiative!!!!  

He was a Lagerführer, camp administator, and the people concerned were not
normal prisoners, but a consignment of Soviet POWs. The Nazis had declared
early in the war that they did not regard Soviets as human beings, for
which reason the normal international accords governing the treatment of
POWs did not, in their view, apply (cf. D Dwork and R. van Pelt, _
Auschwitz. 1270 to the Present_, New York & London: W. W. Norton & Co. pg
261 ff.).


> What did the guys at Oranienburg have to
> say about him taking it upon himself to find a method of mass 
> murder? 

Kudos. Fritsch was subordinate to Höß, and Höß was more than impressed,
despite the fact that the experiment was not a total success.

> And this was BEFORE the Wannsee conference!!!!

Yes. The victims were not Jews, but rather Soviet POWs that the Germans
would otherwise have had to accommodate and feed - until they shot them,
as was the practice at this time.

> Was Karl Fritsch put on trial for this in Konrad Morgen's court?

No.

> Karl Koch killed one or two people at Buchenwald and he was 
> executed by the Nazis.  Amon Goeth was arrested for killing 
> people on his own initiative and was awaiting trial when the war
> ended.  Dr. Rasher was executed just for claiming a couple of 
> children as his own.  The SS was held to very high standards
> and they had to obey orders or face a firing squad.  Yet you
> tell us that Karl Fritsch ON HIS OWN INITIATIVE was 
> EXPERIMENTING with killing people BEFORE the extermination 
> of the Jews was PLANNED.  And the most amazing thing is 
> that no one reprimanded him for this, because there was 
> NO ONE PERSON in charge of the extermination project, at
> least no one that I know of.

Once again, Fritsch was not killing Jews, but Soviet POWs who would have
been shot in any case. Germany could not have functioned as a state if
there had not been laws defining who could and could not be killed by
policies of genocide. Fritsch was high enough, had the right connections,
killed the right people (Soviet POWs during the first few months of the
war), and did it with such aplomb that it generated positive vibes
enabling him to get way with it, with people like Höß only saying "Why
didn't _I_ think of that?". At a
different time and with different victims he might have gotten the book
thrown at him, but this time he didn't.

Nazi Germany was not  monolithic state. There were possibilities to
improvise and work according to one's intuitions, and there were comrades
ready to put in a good word for you if you were in a compromising
situation. What was permissible in September, 1941, when the Nazis though
they "owned the world and space" (c.f. Spike Jones "Der Fuehrer's Face"),
was not necessarily permissible in mid-April 1945, when total defeat was a
few weeks away. Himmler, for example, who got caught trying to negotiate a
deal with the Allies during the last week of the war behind Hitler's back
was expelled from the party, stripped of all positions within the
government, and had a death warrant put on his head by Hitler.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:56 EDT 2001
Article: 890295 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In the Nazis' Words -- Goebbels 2 -- ed. D. Keren via Holocaust-History Project
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:23:53 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B250BD6@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
 wrote:
> 
>      Captured German leaders "confessed" to a lot of things after the war, 
> after their country was destroyed, their government abolished, their 
> families 
> and friends at the mercy of merciless conquerors.  Many of the stories were 
> conflicting, contradictory, implausible and impossible.  If they testified 
> "liquidieren" translated into the English word "kill," they were mistaken or 
> lying.  Before Holocaust propaganda changed the meaning of the word, 
> Liquidieren meant to forcibly remove, expel, evict, deport. It did not mean 
> or connote murder.
> 
Nonsense. The word had long existed in German as a financial term, as in
_Schulden liquidieren_ "to liquidate debts". The meaning of the Russian
equivalent, _likvidirovat'_, was metaphorically extended to mean "kill
political enemies and opponents" during the early 1920s in conjunction
with the Bolshevik seizure of power and the ensuing Russian Civil War. The
cognate verb in European and many other languages, German and English
included, followed Russian usage and acquired this additional meaning
during the 1920s when it had a direct object that was semantically
[+human]:

Er ließ seine Schulden liquidieren.
              [-human]
"He had his debts liquidated, i.e. paid off or cancelled."

Er ließ seine Gegner liquidieren.
              [+human]
"He had his opponents liquidated, i.e. killed off."



>       I don't think Irving translated the word in the trial.  

He used the expression "liquidated by shooting", see below.

> Even if he did, 
> it doesn't change the meaning the word in the 1940's when Goebbels and other 
> German leaders used it liberally. They used to describe clearing out the 
> Ghettoes; they used it to order the removal of people from villages and 
> towns; 
> they almost always used it in conjunction with some deportation or 
> evacuation 
> operation.

You are only half right. They used the verb _liquidieren_ when talking
about the emptying of ghettos [-human] as well as when talking about the
mass killing of the ghetto inhabitants [+human]. If what you are claiming
were correct, how do you explain Irving's use of the expression
"liquidation by shooting" in the following?

Source:
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/transcripts/trans_03_15_00_day32.asp

P-181

(Irving talking)

< 8>  My Lord, there is an impressive (and we are both 
< 9> agreed on this, all parties) level of documentation which 
<10> demonstrates that the liquidation by shooting of hundreds 
<11> of thousands of Jews, probably over a million, by the 
<12> Einsatzgruppen, but there is nothing of equivalent value 
<13> for the Operation Reinhard camps.

Although this is a translation, it faithfully follows the German,
translating _liquidieren_ as 'liquidate'. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich
Jeckeln makes it quite clear that in 1945, when this interrogation took
place, liquidate, when applied to people, meant 'mass murder'.

Source: http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm

The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln
  
  
The  shootings  were  carried out  under  the  direction  of Colonel 
Dr.  Lange,  Commander of the  SD  and  Gestapo  in Latvia.  Knecht was in
charge of security at the liquidation sites.[2]  I, Jeckeln, took part in
the shootings  on  three occasions;  the  same holds for Lange,  Knecht, 
Lohse,  and Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police  in Riga.


  
Q: Who did the shooting? 

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers. 

Q: What was the procedure? 

A:  All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga  to the 
liquidation site. Near the pits, they  had  to  deposit  their 
overclothes, which were washed, sorted,  and  shipped back  to  Germany. 
Jews-men, women,  and  children-  passed  through police cordons on their
way to the pits, where  they were shot by German soldiers. 

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler? 

A:  Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in  Riga 
had  been liquidated. And when I was  in  Loetzen,  East  Prussia,  in 
December 1941,  I  reported  in  person, too.[3] Himmler was satisfied
with the results. He said that  more  Jewish convoys were due to arrive in
Latvia, and these were to be liquidated by me also. 




Here are some more examples of the usage of the "liquidieren + NP[+human]"
in 20th century German from the text corpus at the Mannheim Institut für
deutsche Sprache (http://www.ids-mannheim.de/):

M94/410.03187: Mannheimer Morgen, 06.10.1994, Politik; Neue Zweifel an
Selbstmord 

Jüngst hatte ein Buchautor sogar behauptet, Barschel sei von Israels
Geheimdienst Mossad liquidiert worden, weil er eine zentrale Rolle in
israelischen Waffengeschäften mit Iran gespielt habe. 

M94/411.09996: Mannheimer Morgen, 17.11.1994, Politik; Verteidiger wollen
Einstellung 

Hogefeld erklärte hingegen am ersten Verhandlungstag, Grams sei von
GSG-9-Beamten "in Lynchjustiz liquidiert" worden. 

M96/602.08308: Mannheimer Morgen, 21.02.1996, Politik; Wieder Blutbad in
Tschetschenien

Der russische Kommandeur Anatoli Kwaschnin sagte der Moskauer
Nachrichtenagentur Itar-Tass, die Rebellen würden "liquidiert". 

M98/802.13113 Mannheimer Morgen, 13.02.1998, Fernsehen und Hörfunk; Präzise

Daß die Täter schließlich fast alle liquidiert wurden, ist eine besondere
"Qualität" jener Terrorjahre, ist ein bis heute in Rußland nicht gänzlich
aufgearbeitetes Kapitel der Geschichte. 

M98/804.29675 Mannheimer Morgen, 02.04.1998, Politik; Hamas-Führer von
Agenten getötet?

Der gewaltsame Tod des meistgesuchten Bombenbauers der
Palästinenser-Bewegung Hamas hat gestern in Israel zu Spekulationen
geführt, der Mann könne vom Geheimdienst liquidiert worden sein. 

M00/012.76267 Mannheimer Morgen, 08.12.2000, Lokales; Ein Beltz-Auftritt
ohne Spaß und Satire

Wegen seiner Abkehr vom Terrorismus habe Klein panische Angst davor
gehabt, von früheren Terror-Genossen als Verräter liquidiert zu werden. 

H85/QZ1.15962, Die ZEIT (1985, Politik), 01.02.85, S. 03, Als der Krieg zu
Ende war ein Überlebender aus dem Warschauer Getto , der Jiddisch spricht
, ein deutscher Offizier , der dabei war , als das Getto samt seinen
Bewohnern " liquidiert " wurde. 

H86/QZ3.50621, ZEIT (1986, Politik), 11.04.86, S. 07, Reitet für Österreich
wie seine Zuhörer ihm auch kritiklos abnehmen , er habe nur seine "
Pflicht " getan , wie jeder " anständige deutsche Soldat " , als im
damaligen Bosnien Zehntausende - auch Kinder - als Geiseln für
Partisanenüberfälle " liquidiert " wurden. 

H88/QM7.11001, Mannheimer Morgen (1988, Politik), 16.05.88, S. 02, Sind
alle deutschen Opfer Stalins rahabilitiert?

In einem begleitenden Brief an den sowjetischen Botschafter hatten unter
anderen Lew Kopelew , Jakob Moneta und Peter von Oertzen zugleich darauf
verwiesen , daß auch zahlreiche deutsche Kommunisten , die auf der Flucht
vor den Nazis Asyl
in der Sowjetunion gesucht hatten , ebenfalls " in der Stalin-Ära
liquidiert worden sind " . 

*******************************************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:56 EDT 2001
Article: 890320 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Development of Modern Anti-Semitism: Popular Anti-Semitism
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:20:17 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AE62605.721224AD@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

>
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> That is a question many of us are pondering.  There are perhaps two or three
> possible scenarios by which it might come to pass.
> 
> (1) As the present process of globalization continues to marginalize
more and more
> middle class and working class people, there may dawn a realization
among these
> people that it is not THEIR fault, rather, that the System has simply
ceased to
> work for them and that no amount of federal tinkering is ever going to make it
> work.
> and they will have to look to themselves for their economic salvation - becaue
> there is nowhere else they can look.
> 
> Waht could take place is that, more and more, in many places throughout the
> country people form themselves into groups of a hundred, groups of a
thousand and,
> having a certain farming area as their base, slowly work themselves into a
> situation of frugal self-sufficiency. This will be possible only with people
> prepared ot live lives of great deprivation, people totally cleansed of any
> notions of me-ism.
> 
> Hopefully over time, small groups might coalesce into larger groups even
though
> not geographically contiguous.
> 
> I believe the Israeli kibbutz might serve as a starting model (providing
of course
> that the right-thinking right-wingers do not gag on the idea).

I agree with you that American society is plagued by meism, but most
Americans are unwilling to pay the higher taxes or allow the government to
intervene into their lives to the degree necessary to define and ensure a
better life for the entire country. Perhaps in a country the size of the
United States this would be impossible. In the increasingly mlticultural
countries of Europe ways have been devised to enable socieites to function
with a fraction of the tension that you have in the US, partially because
of massive social welfare programs that are more concerned with ensuring
that the weakest members of society live decently than with allowing
people the economic freedom to become zillionaires or live in poverty.
America is not into collectivism, but your idea of a Volk-based society
requires that.

>
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> 
> (2) Another scenario is one not requiring any great economic distress. RAther,
> people who are disgusted to the depths of their being by liberalism,
> multi-racialism, multiculturalism and the whole bag and baggage, one by
one pick
> up stakes and move to the Northwestern states. In time these states
would acquire
> overwhelming right-wing majorities who would make laws to suit
themselves. Would
> confrontations with the Federal government be possible? I'd say they'd
be highly
> likely. We might need among our number a certain number of young men
sufficiently
> fanatical to be prepared to either live the lives of hunted guerillas or else
> stand there and be shot down. I think it was Jefferson who pointed out
that the
> Tree of Liberty must, from time to time, be washed with the blood of patriots.

How many young men - or young women for that matter - are going to really
want to spend a life or suffer martyrdom like that, particularly since the
Federal government has all kinds of infra-red devices which make hiding in
dark or forest virtually impossible if it sets its mind on hunting out the
guerillas? Even on a non-military level, we leave a paper trail every time
we use a credit card, swipe a security card, or make a major purchase.
People who pay cash nowadays, draw an increasing amount of attention to
themselves. Communications are going into the realm of computers and
mobile telephones, all of which document where a person is and who his/her
contacts are.

>
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> (3) A third possible scenario would be if the entire machinery of production,
> distribution, investment, etc experienced a breakdown far more total
than that of
> 1929.  Then, with tax revenues dried up, the ruling power would not even
have the
> funds to pay their soldiers and police.
> 
> Then, once the New Order was established and the "disappearing" of
Jeffrey Brown
> taken care of, they could proceed to the second agenda item.
> 
> ====================================

Which would be what?`

A more homogeneous society, which I assume would be high on the agenda,
would not ensure a friction-free society. People always find reasons to
group and scapegoat. The piddling riots we have recently seen in Seattle
and Cincinnati showed nothing compared to the exuberance with which Serbs
and Croats, Catholics and Protestants, Basque-speakers and
Spanish-speakers, neo-Nazis and leftists have slaughtered and continue to
slaughter each other in Europe, despite the generally lower level of
social tension in European societies.

People have to be taught to respect other people, even if they don't like
them and feel they have nothing in common with them. The alternative is a
world like Nazi Germany, where one group after another - Jews, Gypsies,
Social Democrats, trade union activists, liberals, homosexuals, mulattos,
Jehovah's witnesses, invalids, deformed people, terminally ill or
feeble-minded people, Sorbs, educated Poles, and others were targeted by
the powers in Berlin as "internal threats" and dealt with accordingly.

Source: http://www.rkdn.org/u-r-next.htm


"First They Came for the Jews" 
By Pastor Niemoller


 First they came for the Jews
 and I did not speak out 
 because I was not a Jew.

 Then they came for the Communists
 and I did not speak out 
 because I was not a Communist.

 Then they came for the trade unionists
 and I did not speak out 
 because I was not a trade unionist.

 Then they came for me 
 and there was no one left to speak out for me.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:56 EDT 2001
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Einsatzgruppen: Order by von Runstedt on Wehrmacht E-gruppen Contacts
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:44:22 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AF32955@MailAndNews.com>, Philip Mathews
 wrote:

> >===== Original Message From holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) =====
> >In article <20010424233630.14742.00000843@ng-mb1.aol.com>,
> >philnancy@aol.com (Philip Mathews) wrote:
> >
> >> In >Message-id: <3B23221A@MailAndNews.com>
> >>
> >> >Gustave Morgan morghus@MailAndNews.com wrote:
> >>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >      Von Runstedt's order is clear evidence that the German high command
> >> >considered the Ukrainian population's action against the Jews excessive.
> >>
> >> No it isn't. It is evidence that the  Nazis, ever punctilious, wanted to 
> make
> >> it clear to the army that they could not participate in the excesses
> >> perpetrated by the Ukrainians, since that responsibility is invested in the
> >> Sondekommando.
> >
> >Sorry to be pedantic here, but the term that you want is
> >"Einsatzkommando", special action paramilitary squads whose assigment it
> >was to follow the Wehrmacht into newly conquered territory and kill Jews,
> >Gypsies, partisans, and suspected communists before they had a chance to
> >know what had hit them and get away.
> 
> Actually the term is correct, if misspelled, and was the same term that von 
> Runstedt used in the communication under discussion.
> 

Indeed, you are correct. Sorry for my blooper. _Sonderkommando_ simply
means 'special squad'. Von Runstedt is using the term generically, while I
was thinking of its more specific meaning. On the other hand, it is
evident that what he was referring to is what we now refer to as the
Einsatzkommandos:


The investigation of and struggle against tendencies and elements hostile
to the Reich (Communists, Jews, etc.), insofar as they are not part of a
hostile military force is, in the occupied areas, exclusively the task of
the Sonderkommando [Special Unit] of the Security Police and the SD, which
will take the necessary measures on their own responsibility and carry them
out.


In September 1941 terminology might not yet have become fixed, or he might
have been thinking generically rather than specifically.
Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:57 EDT 2001
Article: 890338 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In the Nazis' Words -- Goebbels 2 -- ed. D. Keren via Holocaust-History Project
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:04:36 +0300
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In article <3B2FE5EE@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
 wrote:
> 
> 
>      Belzec was actually inside the District of Lublin. It was almost due 
> South of the city of Lublin.  Goebbels said Jews were being sent East from 
> Lublin, not South.  the Jews were being deported to Latvia, Belarus, 
> estonia, 
> Eastern Ukraine, and Russia.  There were no "death camps" to the East of the 
> District of Lublin.

I'm going to have to come to Gustave's defense here. 

At least as far as Estonia and Latvia were concerned, German and other Jews from
Nazi-occupied countries were indeed deported to them and in large numbers.
SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, notes from whose interrogation are
included in this posting, tells something about the fate of Jews who were
"deported to the East" if they wound up in Nazi-occupied Latvia.

One of the first shipments was a trainload of 1,000 Jews from Berlin when
left that city on the evening of November 27, 1941. The train arrived in
Riga around midnight of the following day, and was placed on a siding at
the trainyard of the Rumbula station. At 6:00 AM on November 30 the people
in the train were awakened by Einsatzkommando operatives and marched to
pre-dug graves. By 9:00, when the head of the line of approx. 12,000 Jews
>from the Riga ghetto had reached the Rumbula killing site, all of the
Berlin Jews had been shot.

After most of the local Jews in Estonia and Latvia had been liquidated (=
killed), a network of concentration camps was built, primarily by imported
Jewish slave workers, to accommodate the remnant of the local Jews as well
as Jews shipped in from Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and elsewhere.
The most notorious of these was Salaspils (http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm),
outside Riga. Others were Kaiserwald, also in Latvia
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x12/xm1201.html), and Vaivara
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x33/xm3355.html) and Klooga, in Estonia
(http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/text/x12/xm1286.html). Of the Jews who
survived the camps in Latvia and Estonia, many were killed when they were
evacuated, in connection with either the the mass shootings of inmates
that accompanied the liquidation of the camps, or the deathmarches and
evacuation of camp inmates to camps in metropolitan Germany, particularly
Stutthof.

It might interest some readers of this group that the theme of the fate of
Central European Jews being deported to Latvia is the theme of a
profoundly' moving Holocaust novel and movie of the 1980s, _Sophie's
Choice_ (http://www.petermacnicol.com/sc.html).


Here is some detailed information on the Salaspils camp from the website
at the camp's museum:

Source: http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm


    The purposes of building the Salaspils camp are unclear. Initially, in
1941, according to some statements by Lange, it was a rush-project built
to house the Reich Jews, but as soon as the camp was finished, about
September 1942, it was turned over to quarter Gentiles, mostly Latvian and
Slavic political prisoners. During March 1943 there were 1,990 prisoners
in Salaspils, but according to some estimates as many as 6,000 has been
squeezed into it. If, during the building stage, the Salaspils camp was an
example of "destruction by labor", then in the Gentile phase, though it
was harsh and many people died or were executed, it served partly as a
labor camp and partly as a transit camp for people who awaited sentencing,
interrogation, or imprisonment in the Central Prison of Riga. Numerous
Ostarbeiters from Belorussia, on their way to Germany, were commonly held
in Salaspils. During the last year of the camp most of the prisoners were
Latvian resisters, draft-dodgers, and  deserters from the Legion. 
  


The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln
  
  
The  shootings  were  carried out  under  the  direction  of Colonel 
Dr.  Lange,  Commander of the  SD  and  Gestapo  in Latvia.  Knecht was in
charge of security at the liquidation sites.[2]  I, Jeckeln, took part in
the shootings  on  three occasions;  the  same holds for Lange,  Knecht, 
Lohse,  and Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police  in Riga.


  
Q: Who did the shooting? 

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers. 

Q: What was the procedure? 

A:  All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga  to the 
liquidation site. Near the pits, they  had  to  deposit  their 
overclothes, which were washed, sorted,  and  shipped back  to  Germany. 
Jews-men, women,  and  children-  passed  through police cordons on their
way to the pits, where  they were shot by German soldiers. 

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler? 

A:  Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in  Riga 
had  been liquidated. And when I was  in  Loetzen,  East  Prussia,  in 
December 1941,  I  reported  in  person, too.[3] Himmler was satisfied
with the results. He said that  more  Jewish convoys were due to arrive in
Latvia, and these were to be liquidated by me also. 

Q: Go into more detail. 

A:  At  the  end  of  January  1942,[4]  I  was  at  Himmler's
headquarters   in   Loetzen,  East   Prussia,   to   discuss 
organizational  matters regarding the  Latvian  SS  legions.There 
Himmler  informed me that additional  Jewish  convoys  were  due to arrive
>from the Reich and from other countries.The  destination point would be
the Salaspils  concentration  camp,  which  lay one and a quarter miles
>from Riga  in  the direction  of Duenaburg. Himmler said that he  had 
not  yet  determined  how he would have them exterminated: whether  to
have  them  shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils,  or  whether to
chase them into the swamp somewhere. 

Q: How was the matter resolved? 

A:  It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker
death. Himmler said he would think it over and  then  give orders later
through Heydrich. 

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from? 

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia,  and from other occupied  countries  to  the  Salaspils
camp. To give a precise count of the Jews  in  the Salaspils camp would be
difficult. In any case, all the Jews  from  this camp were exterminated.
But I would like to  make an additional statement while we are on this
topic. 

Q: What statement would you like to make? 

A:  I would like to state for the record that Goering shares in  the 
guilt  for the liquidations of Jewish convoys  that  arrived  from other
countries. In the first half of February 1942  I  received a letter from
Heydrich. In this letter  he  wrote that Reich Marshal Goering had gotten
himself involved in the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being
shipped to the East for annihilation only with Goering's approval. 

Q:  This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils. 

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews  in
Salaspils with Himmler in Loetzen. That alone makes  me  an accessory to
this crime. Beyond that, Jews were  shot in  the  Salaspils camp by forces
recruited from my  SD  and  Security  Police units. The commander of the
SD and  Gestapo in  Latvia,  Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Lange, was  directly 
in  charge of the shootings. Other officers who reported  to  me on  the
shootings of Jews in the camp were the commander  of  the SD and Gestapo
in the Baltic States, Major General Jost; Colonel of Police Pifrader; and
Colonel of Police Fuchs. 

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you? 

A:  They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were  to arrive per
week, all subject to liquidation. 

Q:  Then  the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought  to  be known too,
isn't that correct? 

A:  Yes,  of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The  first 
Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in  November  1941.  Then, in the
first half of 1942, convoys  arrived  at regular intervals. I  believe 
that  in November 1941, no more than three  convoys arrived  in  all,  but
during the next  seven  months,  from  December 1941 to June 1942, eight
to twelve convoys  arrived each month. 
    Overall,  in  eight months, no less than fifty-five  and  no more 
than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the  camp.  Given that each
convoy carried a thousand men, that makes  a total of 55,000 to 87,000
Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp. 

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth? 

A:  I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however, that
before my arrival in  Riga,  a  significant number of Jews in the Ostland 
and  in White  Ruthenia  were exterminated. I was informed  of  this 
fact.[5] 

Q: By whom, specifically? 

A:  Stahlecker;  Pruetzmann; Lange; Major General  Schroder, the SS and
Police Leader in Latvia;  Major  General Moeller the SS and Police Leader
in  Estonia; and  Major  General  Wysocki the SS  and  Police  Leader  in 
Lithuania. 

Q: Be specific. What did they report? 

A:  Schroeder reported to me that over and above those  Jews who  had 
been  exterminated  in  the  ghetto  in  Riga   an  additional  70,000 
to  100,000 Jews  were  exterminated  in Latvia.  Dr. Lange directly
oversaw these shootings. Moeller  reported that in Estonia everything was
in order as  far  as the Jewish question was concerned. 
                                                                                                                              



The Estonian Jewish population was insignificant, all in all about  3,000 
to  5,000 and this was  reduced  to  nil.  The  greater  part  were
exterminated in Reval. Wysocki  reported that  100,000  to  200,000  Jews 
were  exterminated-shot-in  Lithuania, on Stahlecker's orders. In
Lithuania, the  Jewish exterminations were overseen by the commander of
the SD  and  Gestapo,  Lieutenant Colonel of Police Jaeger. Later  Jaeger
told  me  that he had become neurotic as a result  of  these  shootings. 
Jaeger was pensioned off and left his  post  for treatment. All told, the
number of Jews exterminated in  the 
actions in the Baltic East reached somewhere in the vicinity of 190,500 to
253,500.[6] 

Notes: 

1. Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator;  Sergeant Suur, interpreter), 
pp. 8-13, Historical State Archives, Riga. 

2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police inLatvia. 

3. I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald" headquarters in Loetzen. 

4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS appointments
book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

On  the  same  day  Himmler made the  following  handwritten entry, re:
his telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze 
17  [i.e., 5:00 EM.] SS Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into the concentration
camps" NS 19/neu 1439 Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

5. Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police Leader
for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln, 
personnel file, Berlin Document Center. A second promotion to the rank of
Leader of the SS Upper Section, "Ostland," 
occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19 neu/2846]). 

6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police of Riga
(dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger reported the
following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: 

"Re: executions through 1 February 1942 by the Einsatzkommando 3A: Jews:
136,421. Total: 138,272, of these, women: 55,556; children: 34,464" 
(Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte 3253/63 Fb 76 [a]). 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:57 EDT 2001
Article: 890347 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In the Nazis' Words -- "Material for Special Treatment" -- via Holocaust-History Project
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:25:29 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B303986@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
 wrote:

> >===== Original Message From Johann Sebastian Bot  =====
> >This collection of quotations from Nazi leaders documents for itself. The
> >common thread running through all of these quotations is the annihilation
> >of the Jews. All quotations are from Nazi documents, books or speeches, and
> >the German original has in most cases been provided.
> >
> >"Material for Special Treatment"
> >
> >This document of August 26, 1942, gives permission to the Auschwitz
> >concentration camp to send a truck to Dessau, in order to pick up "material
> >for special treatment." Dessau was one of the two places where the poison
> >Zyklon-B was manufactured. [1] Special treatment," or "Sonderbehandlung,"
> >was the Nazi code word for extermination.
> >
> 
>      Zyklon B was a powerful insecticide.  "Special treatment" probably 
> meant 
> delousing, disinfecting, and bathing. Each new arrival to one of the crowded 
> camps had to be carefully disinfected and deloused to prevent disease in the 
> camp.  There is not a shred of documentary evidence that "special treatment" 
> or "special handling" meant killing.  

Any "special treatment" of human beings with Zyklon-B would result in a
rapid death. Zyklon-B was designed to kill vermin and a single application
of the stuff is sufficient to generate cyanide gas at the concentration of
16,000 ppm and maintain it for the 20 hours needed to kill them. People
die within an hour at concentrations as low as 150 ppm, and within a few
minutes at 300 ppm.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:57 EDT 2001
Article: 890966 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: In the Nazis' Words -- Goebbels 2 -- ed. D. Keren via Holocaust-History Project
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 13:49:57 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AEA2798.5060209@sympatico.ca>, Gord McFee
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B2FE5EE@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
> >  wrote:
> > 
> >>
> >>     Belzec was actually inside the District of Lublin. It was almost due 
> >>South of the city of Lublin.  Goebbels said Jews were being sent East from 
> >>Lublin, not South.  the Jews were being deported to Latvia, Belarus, 
> >>estonia, 
> >>Eastern Ukraine, and Russia.  There were no "death camps" to the East
of the 
> >>District of Lublin.
> > 
> > I'm going to have to come to Gustave's defense here. 
> 
> 
> Well, you are more ethical than he is.  The Goebbels' quote talks about 
> east of Lublin.  It does not say Lublin district, it says Lublin. 
> Gustave said there were no death camps east of Lublin.  I pointed out 
> that Belzec was southeast of Lublin.  Phil pointed out that Sobibor was 
> due east of Lublin.  That makes two.
> 
> 
> Deniers like to pretend that there were no death camps east of Lublin
> and that therefore the talk of evacuated to the east could not have
> meant "sent to a death camp".


I was addressing a different issue. In the excerpt above Gustave claimed
that: "[T]he Jews were being deported to Latvia, Belarus, [E]stonia,
eastern Ukraine, and Russia," places which did not have "death camps" in
the manner that the term is usually understood. I was pointing out that he
was correct. At least some of the Jews rounded up and dispossessed by the
Nazis wound up being being deported to and briefly resettled in eastern
territories conquered from the USSR, specifically the two Baltic countries
Estonia and Lativia.

What, however, was their fate?

The first known shipment, a trainful of 1,000 Berlin Jews which left
Berlin in the evening of Nov. 27, 1941, arriving in Latvia late during the
night between Nov. 29 and 30, 1941. These Jews were shot as the first
victims of the Rumbula massacre starting at 6:00 AM on Nov. 30. Subsequent
shipments of Jews from Germany, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and
elsewhere to Latvia and Estonia were put to work building concentation
camps at a pace and under conditions which assured that most of them were
"destroyed through work". After them came shipments of Jews from
Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and elsewhere, and they were interned at these
camps (Salaspils, Kaiserwald, Vaiara, Klooga, and others), where many of
those who survived the regime at the camps were killed during camp
liquidations, death marches, and evacuations by ship to Stutthof.
Resettlement in "the East" was thus not, as Gustave would have us believe,
the objective of the "Final Solution", but only a stage.

This is what SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jecklen, who served as head of
police affairs in the Baltics during much of the German occupation, had to
say about the fate of Jews who were "resettled in the East":

Q = SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jecklen's interrogator at his trial in
Riga n December, 1945.
A = SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jecklen

Source: http://www.sal.lv/Cc.htm


Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from? 

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia,  and from other occupied  countries  to  the  Salaspils
camp. To give a precise count of the Jews  in  the Salaspils camp would be
difficult. In any case, all the Jews  from  this camp were exterminated.
But I would like to  make an additional statement while we are on this
topic. 

Q: What statement would you like to make? 

A:  I would like to state for the record that Goering shares in  the 
guilt  for the liquidations of Jewish convoys  that  arrived  from other
countries. In the first half of February 1942  I  received a letter from
Heydrich. In this letter  he  wrote that Reich Marshal Goering had gotten
himself involved in the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being
shipped to the East for annihilation only with Goering's approval. 



So the point is that there is some formal truth in Gustave's claim that
some Jews were being evacuated and deported by the Nazis to the East. The
place the German authorities had assigned for their resettlement, however,
was in the Hereafter.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:57 EDT 2001
Article: 891387 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Fascists and Conservatives -- Ayn Rand
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 22:25:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AEC442A.52BC2E1E@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> They have yet to learn how the world runs. they have yet to learn that
the world is a
> war of all against all. They have yet to be cast out of the warmth and
security of
> home and family into a world that owes them nothing. It is then that the
atomised
> individual begins to seek to belong to something larger than himself.
> 
> When and only when you understnad this will you understand why the
crowds cheered
> madly for Hitler. It was becasue he told them that they were not alone,
that they
> belonged to something larger, to their extended family called their Volk.

It's one pf history's ironies that Hitler told them this, but did not
belong himself. Hitler spoke German with a provincial Austrian accent that
immediately revealed his non-German background. The only way he only
became a member of the German Volk was by redefining it to include
Austrians, a move that was not universally approved or accepted either in
Germany or in Austria. 

Hitler's politics, although wildly applauded by some, (many of whom could
not "afford" to oppose them in public), were vehemently opposed by others.
The Dachau concentration camp was originally built to accommodate Hitler's
political opponents; eventually, many more such concentration camps for
those political enemies which Hitler did not have killed outright, such as
Ernst Röhm, Gustav von Kahr, Bernhard Stempfle, Karl Ernst, Erich
Klausener, Kurt von Schleicher, and Gregor Strasser, all of whom wer
killed within the course of a few days during the early summer of 1934,
had to be built. The SS under Himmler and Heydrich committed these murders
and ran the concentration camps as well. The murders of Hitler's political
opponents mark the beginning of the evolution of that organization into
Hitler's personal instrument for committing mass murder, both in Germany
and, eventually, in the territory that it invaded and conquered.

> The liberal insists that there should not be any need for this. OK, after the
> liberals hve finished telling me the way Man ought to be, I will tell
the liberals
> the way he is.
> 

Man is, thank heavens, certainly not the monster that Hitler taught he
that he should be. When we see something we want we don't, as Nazi Germany
was wont to do, kick the owner in the chops and take it. People are able
to feel compassion and empathy for fellow human beings, whether or not
they are members of the same race or nation. 

The best appraisal of Hitler that I know is by Spike Jones. (Sourcce:
http://ingeb.org/songs/whenderf.html):

                  When der Führer says:
                  We is de Master race,
                  We Heil (Bronx cheer) , Heil (Bronx cheer),
                  Right in the Führer's face
                  Not to love the Führer
                  Is a great disgrace,
                  So we Heil (Bronx cheer) , Heil (Bronx cheer),
                  Right in the Führer's face.

                  When Herr Goebbels says
                  We own the world and space,
                  We Heil (Bronx cheer) , Heil (Bronx cheer),
                  Right in Herr Goebbels' face
                  When Herr Göring says
                  They'll never bomb this place,
                  We Heil (Bronx cheer) , Heil (Bronx cheer),
                  Right in Herr Göring's face.

                  Are we not the supermen,
                  Aryan-pure supermen.
                  Ja we is der supermen,
                  Superduper supermen.
                  Ist es not ze land so gut,
                  Would you leave it if you could?
                  a ist not the land is good,
                  We would leave it if we could.

                  We bring the world new order,
                  Heil Hitler's world new order.
                  Everyone of foreign race,
                  Will love the Führer's face,
                  When we bring to the world dis-order.

                  When der Führer says:
                  We is de Master race,
                  We Heil (Bronx cheer) , Heil (Bronx cheer),
                  Right in the Führer's face
                  Not to love the Führer
                  Is a great disgrace
                  So we Heil (Bronx cheer) , Heil (Bronx cheer),
                  Right in the Führer's face.


************************************************************************

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:58 EDT 2001
Article: 891595 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Fascists and Conservatives -- Ayn Rand
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 11:08:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AECADB2.FFBE5025@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> >
> > It's one of history's ironies that Hitler told them this, but did not
> > belong himself. Hitler spoke German with a provincial Austrian accent that
> > immediately revealed his non-German background. The only way he only
> > became a member of the German Volk was by redefining it to include
> > Austrians, a move that was not universally approved or accepted either in
> > Germany or in Austria.
> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wrong.
> 
> The concept of Volk is not a precise one. It generally means a people
defined by
> theei national boundaries but not always and not necessrily. The notion of the
> German Volk most emphatically DID include the Germans of Austria. The
wild cheering
> in Vienna in 1938 can leave us no doubt on that score. 

The Anschluss was only accomplished with backstabbing, murder, and
terror.  You do, of course, remember Engelbert Dollfuss and his fate at
the hands of Austrian Nazis paving the way for eventual Anschluss. 

Source: http://www.linz.at/archiv_e/ekapitel3.html

During the great celebrations in all of Austria, many potential opponents
of the regime were arrested, as well as the Jews who were expropriated and
deprived of civil rights. National Socialist rule was established now in
Austria through propaganda, terror and enticements.


> Contrariwise, the post World
> WAr I settlement left large numbers of Germans living in what had become
Polish
> territory - but they did not cease to be part of the German Volk.
> 
> NOr is the concept exclusionary as it accepts immigrants ot peripheral
nations.
> Look at the names of some of the Luftwffe superstars: The Hugueno-descendedt
> Galland, The Pole-descended Krupinsky, the two Czechs-decended Novotny
and Hrabak.
> No one ever questioned that they were Germans.

Whether people like Hannah Arendt, Alfred Einstein, or Henry Kissinger
were Germans was not even questioned: it was denied outright because they
were Jews. The same holds true for the more than 100,000 invalids,
elderly, and deformed people killed within the T4 euthanasia program, or
the thousands of African-Germans, some the products of German colonists
with African women in Germany's pre-WW I colonies, others the products of
French colonial troops and German women in the occupied Rheinland after WW
I -  who were sterilized or killed. Their lives were regarded as an
"insult" to the German Volk.

> ================================================

> >
> > Hitler's politics, although wildly applauded by some, (many of whom could
> > not "afford" to oppose them in public), were vehemently opposed by others.
> > The Dachau concentration camp was originally built to accommodate Hitler's
> > political opponents; eventually, many more such concentration camps for
> > those political enemies which Hitler did not have killed outright, such as
> > Ernst Röhm, Gustav von Kahr, Bernhard Stempfle, Karl Ernst, Erich
> > Klausener, Kurt von Schleicher, and Gregor Strasser, all of whom wer
> > killed within the course of a few days during the early summer of 1934,
> > had to be built. The SS under Himmler and Heydrich committed these murders
> > and ran the concentration camps as well. The murders of Hitler's political
> > opponents mark the beginning of the evolution of that organization into
> > Hitler's personal instrument for committing mass murder, both in Germany
> > and, eventually, in the territory that it invaded and conquered.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> ONe had to guard his tongue in discussing certain matters. I have no reason to
> believe
> that the ordinary man found this particularly irksome.. 

Many did. One of the ways that the Nazis dealt with unemployment was
arresting people on the slightest pretext. This took people off of the job
market and provided work for prison guards and concentration camp
personnel. Dachau had thousands of inmates - trade unionists, dissidents,
Social Democrats -long before the systematic campaign of persecuting and
arresting Jews began.


>In any case, i do not
> beieve they were any more
> restrictive than the "speech codes" now all the rage on AMerican
campuses - though,
> admittedly, the
> penalties for violation were more severe.
> 
> ========================================

Yes, they were more severe. The fates of Ernst Röhmer and Ernst Thälmann,
two people who said things Hitler didn't like, are instructive. Archbiship
Clemens von Galen, who blew the whistle on the nazi euthanasia program
would have met the same fate, but his high status and international
repation saved him.

> > Man is, thank heavens, certainly not the monster that Hitler taught 
> > that he should be. When we see something we want we don't, as Nazi Germany
> > was wont to do, kick the owner in the chops and take it. People are able
> > to feel compassion and empathy for fellow human beings, whether or not
> > they are members of the same race or nation.
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Compassion and empathy for fellow human beings.
> 
> Did you know that, in the winter of 1933-34, no German child went
hungry. Tell me
> all the
> "democracies" which can boast of a thing like that.
> 
> ===============================

No German child is not the same as no child in Germany. One year of Nazi
power had meant the economic destruction of tens of thousands of families
in Germany whose breadwinners had lost their jobs or had their property
confiscated by the state for the "crime" of having had a Jewish mother.

<"Der Führer's Face" omitted>

> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have a Spike JOnes CD and listen to it once in a while.
> 
> ====================

Did you ever think about the words to that song?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:58 EDT 2001
Article: 891637 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips to Holman - a wrap up of the Leuchter business
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:44:30 +0300
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In article <3AECA70C.6D932B49@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:


> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
[DELETIONS]

> Jews are sometimes less than candid when it comes to publishing the
names of the
> perpetrators of things like this. For this reason I cannot give you the
names of
> the Jews who "got" Leuchter -- but "got" he certainly was.
> 
> ========================================

"Got" he was, but by his own foolishness. You don't appear as an expert
witness in a high-profile trial of international interest with no
credentials and a foolish report if you don't want to get "got". Leuchter,
like Irving, lacks the sense of modesty to know when he is into something
that is beyond his depth. Would you claim that the Jews "got" David Irving
as well?

> > > > When did I say that the results from the Krakow analyses would be "far
> > > > higher" than Leuchter's?
> > > >
> > > > JGB
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The best way to answer that question is to recall the context and turn the
> question back to you.
> 
> The Leuchter Report, reduced to simplest terms, consisted of the
reporting of two
> sets of figures:
> 
> (a) HCN concentrations observed on the walls of the fumigation chamber.
We'll call
> this A. The numbers were around 1000 mg/kg.
> 
> (b) HCN concentrations obsrved on the walls of the (alleged) mass execution
> chamber.  We'll call this B. The numbers were around 1 mg/kg.
> 
> Do these numbers prove that no lethal gassings took place? In my
opinion, they do
> not. However, I do believe they cast the gravest doubt on the claim.

Why?
1. Leuchter did not use a proper control, so you have no idea of how the
readings for these two environments relate to one another or to
environments in which cyanide was used once or never. 
2. Leuchter makes the egregious and inexcusable error of explaining the
traces of cyanide found in Krema II as resulting from a single fumigation
of cyanide during the 1942 typhus epidemic without any test of a place
known to have been exposed to cyanide only once and in ignorance of the
fact that Krema II was not completed until june, 1943.
3. Leuchter did not take into account the fact that the gas chamber ruins
had been exposed to the elements since 1944, while the fumigation chambers
had not been.
4. Leucher did not take into account that water and CO2 play a role in the
formation and preservation of HCN compounds.
5. Leuchter did not take into account that different structural materials.
brick, mortar, old cement, fresh cement, play a role in HCN compound
formation and retention.
6. Leuchter did not take into account that cyanide does not penetrate
walls, and that the compounds would only have formed on the surface, for
which reason his core samples contaminated the data to the point of making
their analysis pointless from a quantitative standpoint.
7. Leuchter did not understand that the minimum exposure to cyanide
necessary to kill lice is several thousand times greater in terms of
concentration and duration from the minimum exposure needed to kill people.

These are some of the factors that indicate that Leuchter's report proves
absolutely nothing and is scientific garbage.

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> That the Leuchter Report got the Jews' collective haemorrhoids in an
uproar would
> be Mother of all Understatements. 

It is a disturbing report, but for all the wrong reasons. Anybody with an
understanding of science can see that Luchter's report is nonsense. What
is disturbing is when people such as David Irving, who back then still had
some credibility, state that "Forensic chemistry, may I remind you, is an
exact science" and "It takes colossally higher concentrations of cyanide
to kill people than it does to kill lice". Forensic chemistry may be an
exact science, but interpreting the evidence it yields is not. The
Leuchter Report is remembered for the falsehoods associated with it,
starting with the underlying assumption that American execution and Nazi
extermination gas chambers should have many things in common, and ending
with the implication that it is more difficult in terms of amounts and
concentrations needed to kill people than lice with cyanide. Few people
have bothered to read the Leuchter Report, of those, not all have thought
about its methodology and its fatal errors and unwarranted underlying
assumptions. Many people remember  David Irving's pronouncements, one too
general to be meaningful, the other totally false, with reference to it.
The juxtaposition of the two make the Leuchter report appear to be
something that it is not.

The offender is not Leuchter, who has no credibility, but Irving who, at
the time, still had some credibility. Leuchter just produced a
scientifically worthless report. Irving, either unable or unwilling to
admit this, has used it as the basis for unjustified and untrue
statements such as the two above, which, unfortunately, many people were
willing to accept uncritically.

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> That the numbers are a grave embarrassment to
> them is plainly evidenced by the lenghts to which they have gone to
refute them.

The numbers are _not_ a grave embarrassment. The IFRC numbers differed in
much the same way, with the highest readings by far being obtained for the
fumigation rooms. The IFRC numbers differ from Leuchter's because:
1. they are based on wall scrapings;
2. they are the results of a consistent methodology appropriate for
quantitative analysis;
3. they are taken from places architecturally known to have been parts of
the gas chambers, parts of a fumigation chamber, parts of areas exposed to
cyanide once, and parts of areas never exposed to cyanide;
4. they take into account the fact that the parts of the gas chambers have
been exposed to the elements since 1944;
5. they take into account that water (rainfall, hosing down after each
execution) and CO2 (in the breath of the people being gassed) play a role
in the formation and long-term stability of HCN compounds;
6. they take into account that the formation and long-term stability of
HCN compounds are also affected by the nature of the material on which
they are forming.

Leuchter neglected all six of these aspects, thus making his report
methodologically deficient and his numbers worthless because they lack a
wider context.

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> They have approached the problem in two ways.
> 
> (1) To try and show that the numbers B, far from proving no homicidal
gassing, are
> about what we should have expected them to be. This was the purpose of
the Krakow
> Report.

That should be the result of any report that compares cyanide compounds on
the walls of gas chambers as opposed to fumigation chambers. The physical
chemistry of cyanide compound formation, including the short and longer
term affects of H2O and CO2, the different construction materials, and the
radically different histories of the structures since 1944 would, all
other things being equal, favor the retention of cyanide compounds on the
walls of the protected fumigation chambers and their gradual
disintegration on the walls of the exposed gas chamber ruins. Thus, even
if the two structures had been exposed to the same concentrations of
cyanide over the same timeframe, we would expect the fumigation chambers
to have retained a significantly higher concentration of HCN compounds
than the gas chambers.

If we are going to be scientific, we cannot say, "well, maybe it would be
twice as much  or a hundred times as uch, but a thousand times as much
seems unbelievable," like you do, Richard. You have to do the follow-up
work. Leuchter did not even address these questions, the IFRC did. It
showed that HCN compounds, although relatively stable, do show a clear
long-term tendency to disintegrate when exposed to water and humidity, that
different structural materials play a role in their formation over the
short term and in their retention over the long term, and that repeated
use of HCN even at the low concentrations and over the short time spans
needed to kill people yields enough cyanide compounds for their readings
to be far higher, even after 50 years, and possible exposure to the
elements, than the readings obtained for places where cyanide is known
to have been used only once, whether for fumigation or a single experimental
gassing.

The Leuchter Report raises some of these questions, but does not address
them. That is why it was dismissed as amateurish, scientific garbage. That
is why people who are interested in these questions are concerned when its
numbers are regarded by people such as David Irving and yourself as
meaning something. With no broader context to relate them to, they are
scientifically worthless.

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> (2) To make out  case that B would have been far higher if Leuchter had
taken into
> account that HCN penetrates only to a few microns and had taken his
samples only
> at the surface.


Who has anyone ever said this? Case B could not and would not have been
higher for the gas chambers than for the fumigation rooms had Leuchter
taken the proper
kind of samples. The problem is one of contamination. Leuchter's samples
were crushed, meaning that the compounds that had formed on the surface
were mixed with everything beneath it. Consequently, the cyanide compounds
were diluted by the rest of the wall material. If we are doing a
_qualitative_ analysis - that is to say, testing for the mere _presence_
of cyanide compounds - this is not crucial. Even when diluted by the rest
of the material they will still show up, the answer will be "positive".
Leuchter told the lab that the samples were for a workman's compensation
case, for which reason this kind of positive/negative analysis would have
been valid and sufficient. What he really wanted to do, though, was
compare _qauntitatively_ the readings for cyanide compounds produced in
two different kinds of environment. For this, obviously, diluting the
sample by mixing the surface and the wall interior _invalidates_ the
analysis. Only if very thin scrapings are taken from the surfaces of the
samples being analyzed can the quantitative analysis allowing for a valid
comparision be performed correctly.

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It immediately strikes the eye that the two approaches are
self-contradictory. So
> waht is it you people are claiming: Is it that  B is about wht we should
expect it
> to be, or is it that B would have been far higher if correct technique
had been
> used.  You can't have it both ways.

No, Richard. Your point (2) is totally incorrect. The problem with
Leuchter's having told the laboratory that it was to make a qualitative
analysis rather than a quantitative one means that their subsequent
treatment of the samples invalidated the possibility for meaningful
quantitative readings to be obtained. Once again, the figures given in the
Leuchter Report are not disturbing in the least. It's the manner in which
they were obtained, and the erroneous interpretation that is being
associated with them in certain quarters that are so disturbing.

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Now,  exemplar of  what the liberals are pleased to call: "alternate
life styles,"
> we come to your question. You and I had been discussing (2): the claim that B
> would have been far higher but for Leuchter's faulty technique. I
pointed out to
> you that, if you people are convinced Leuchter's technique was faulty there is
> nothing stopping you from sending in your own, team, doing things the
way you feel
> they should have been done, and (hopefully) coming home with numbers
more to your
> liking. You answered: "That's already been done." (referring to the Krakow
> Report). What was your purpose in saying this? The Krakow Report had to
do with
> approach (1); it had nothing whatever to do with approach (2). So again I ask:
> what was your purpose in saying: "That's arealdy been done."
> 
> ========================================

You are wrong. The Cracow Report had as much to do with approch (1) as
with approach (2):

€ Leuchter's figures - as figures - were shown to be reasonable: samples
taken from fumigation chambers showed far higher readings for cyanide
compounds than did samples taken from gas chambers. This is what would be
expected, given what is known from other evidence about the different
concentrations and time frames for cyanide use in the two environments as
well as about their subsequent histories. Approach (1) is dealt with
satisfactorily: the Cracow Report produced numbers that show the same
relation as those produced by the Leuchter Report.

€ Leuchter's primary problem was methodological. This problem, your
approach (2), was addressed in the Cracow report. The proper type of
sample was taken, and attention was paid to crucial factors ignored by
Leuchter such as the affect of different sructural materials on cyanide
compound formation and retention, as well as the different archeologial,
architectural, hydrological, and meteorological variables involved. 

Generally speaking, the Krakow analysis shows that the readings for the
gas chambers in Krema I (which had been converted to an air-raid shelter
and then museumified as a partial restoration of its state when it
functioned as a gas chamber) and Krema II (which survives as a ruin) are
between 20% and 60% what is obtained for the fumigation chambers. The
readings for Kremas III, IV, and V (which exist only as foundations), are
uninteresting, even if they are higher than trace. The readings for places
that were never exposed to cyanide, fumigated only once, or exposed to
cyanide in conjunction with the September 3, 1941 experimantal gassing of
850 Soviet POWs in the detention cellars of Block 11, are zero to trace,
being on the order of 1/100th of what is obtained for both the fumigation
rooms and the ruins of the gas chambers in Krema I and Krema II.


Summa summarum. There is nothing wrong with Leuchter's numbers except the
fact that they are only numbers. To draw the conclusions he and other
scientifically naive individuals such as David Irving and Ernst Zündel
have wanted to draw from them, general and specific questions relating to
the conditions under which cyanide compounds are formed, were retained
since 1944, and were sampled in the various environments studied, must be
addressed and answered. Leuchter ignored this crucial aspect of the
analytical task, thus his numbers are just numbers lacking the wider
context which is necessary for their explanation. In other words: he
submitted a hypothesis and conducted an experiment, but in both setting up
the experiment and analyzing the results he failed to address the crucial
issue of the matter in which certian relevant variables might have
affected the result. His work was thus incomplete and, as such, glaringly
non-scientific.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:58 EDT 2001
Article: 892111 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips to Holman - a wrap up of the Leuchter business
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 21:41:34 +0300
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In article <3AED62EF.9BA6678A@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Foolishness?
> 
> I admit two things regarding Leuchter?
> 
> (1) There were factors he was not aware of  and did not take into
account. That he
> did not state them weakened his case, but it did not demolish it. His
numbers still
> stand and, so long as they DO stand, they contiue to cast the gravest
doubt as to
> whether homicidal gassings took place. The only way you people CAN demolish
> Leuchter's case is to perform either of two experiments which I have
suggested to
> you.

Sorry. A man who claims to be a gas chamber expert who does not know that
it is far more difficult to kill vermin than humans with cyanide cannot be
said to have been "not aware of some things". Such ignorance means total
incompetence.

>===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> (2) He had yet to learn of the awesome power and sheer viciousness of
organized
> Jewry when challenged in a very serious way.

When challanged in an amaturish way would be a more appropriate choice of words.


> =================================================
> 
> > You don't appear as an expert
> > witness in a high-profile trial of international interest with no
> > credentials and a foolish report if you don't want to get "got". Leuchter,
> > like Irving, lacks the sense of modesty to know when he is into something
> > that is beyond his depth. Would you claim that the Jews "got" David Irving
> > as well?
> 
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Irving's first mistake was having his case tried by a judge rather than
by a jury.
> His second mistake was to suppose that  British judge, by the mere fact
of BEING a
> British judge, would necessarily be a man of rocklike integrity.

You are implying that one gets justice by being of a certain nationality
or social class. In actual fact, both Irving and Lipstadt/Penguin
presented evidence and defended their positions. Irving was forced to
admit to the court that some of the statements he had made in public were
contrary to historical fact. Thus, while denying the existence of mass
gassings, he admitted that there is a strong case for there having been
some gassings at least at Chelmno and Auschwitz. Thus he admitted that his
public denial of any gassings whatsoever was contrary to the historical record.

That enough is sufficient to demonstrate that he is a falsifier of history.


=====================================================
> Phillips
>
> I have no evidence to suspect that Judge Grey was "got at" by anyone but
I do know
> that such things do happen and that British judges are no exceptions.
There may well
> have been something in his history that he did not want made public and
that someone
> made him aware of it. Or it could have been the case that no one "got at" him
> becasue no one had to. Judge Grey had already seen what had happened to Fred
> Leuchter. He could not have been unaware that a decision favourable to
Irving would
> have exposed him to the bitter emnity of a group of people who were immensely
> powerful, immensely wealthy, immensely saavy, and immensely resourceful;
people who,
> having picked a target for their ire, would stop at NOTHING until they
had destroyed
> him.
> 
> ======================================

A much better explanation is that David Irving himself admitted to being a
falsifier of history in court. Note that Professor Lipstadt didn't utter
a word during the trial. Irving's publications and pronouncements in
court demonstrated  to all concerned that he was indeed a falsifier of
history, for which reason the statements which Professor Lipstadt had made
against him in her book were correct.


> > 1. Leuchter did not use a proper control, so you have no idea of how the
> > readings for these two environments relate to one another or to
> > environments in which cyanide was used once or never.
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Leuchter DID use a control, though perhaps not the one you feel he
should have used.
> 
> =============================================

He didn't use a proper control. If you are going to compare A with B, you
can't use B as a control. You have to use a C. This is an elementary
aspect of experimental science.

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/


Some of the delousing chambers exhibit blue-staining, whereas some of the
homicidal gas chambers do not. Because Rudolf and Leuchter chose to
include this blue-stained material in their samples, their measurements do
not provide more information than visual inspection except as an exercise
in fooling the public by putting numbers to what is apparent to the eye.
In other words, by not discriminating against Prussian blue they have
introduced a bias into using the delousing chambers as a control. They
have not thereby contributed to understanding why a discrepancy in the
level of Prussian blue exists. 


> > 2. Leuchter makes the egregious and inexcusable error of explaining the
> > traces of cyanide found in Krema II as resulting from a single fumigation
> > of cyanide during the 1942 typhus epidemic without any test of a place
> > known to have been exposed to cyanide only once and in ignorance of the
> > fact that Krema II was not completed until june, 1943.
> 
> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Why does this invalidate his conclusions?
> 
> ============================

1. Because Krema III were _not_ fumigated a single time during the 1942
typhus epidemic.
2. Because a proper control would have indicated the amount of cyanide
traces one could expect to find in a place subjected to a single
fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic.

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/

The Institute for Forensic Research, Cracow, discriminated against Prussian blue
compounds so as not to introduce a bias in the control. They found
unequivocally, that all buildings said to have been in contact with HCN at
Auschwitz-Birkenau had traces of cyanides significantly above the
background of other buildings at Auschwitz-Birkenau. 



> >
> > 3. Leuchter did not take into account the fact that the gas chamber ruins
> > had been exposed to the elements since 1944, while the fumigation chambers
> > had not been.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The IHR people claim this would not have affected the results.
> 
> =============================

They are wrong.

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/



Prussian blue once formed is much less susceptible to weathering than are
other forms of cyanides.

Rudolf himself acknowleges this fact: 4 


If the hydrocyanic acid from the Zyklon B had bonded with the brickwork only
through the process of adsorption, then due to the volatility of
hydrocyanic acid (boiling point: 25.7C) it would no longer be possible
today to detect any hydrocyanic acid residues in the remaining walls. 


This argument neglects the fact that hydrogen cyanide is a weak acid that
can form salts, such as potassium cyanide, fails to address the binding of
chemisorption, or the formation of other cyanide compounds; yet the point
is not completely without merit. More significant, perhaps, is the fact
that cyanide salts are highly water soluble unlike Prussian blue.
Markiewicz et al. report that they were not optimistic at being able to
detect cyanides so many years after exposure to HCN. Owing to the fact
that they had legal access to their samples, however, they were able to
plan sample collection in a manner likely to detect cyanides in locations
that were relatively sheltered from the elements. The fact that they
measured traces of cyanide not bound to iron in the homicidal gas chambers
at levels above those observe in other buildings disproves the claims that
such traces would not be measurable 



> > 4. Leucher did not take into account that water and CO2 play a role in the
> > formation and preservation of HCN compounds.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> The IHR people claim the compounds are NOT water-soluble.
> 
> ======================================

They are wrong. They are evidently only thinking about Prussian blue.

(Note the IFRC  is referred to here as the IFFR)

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/

A Foreword to the IFFR Report
By Richard J. Green 

Hydrogen cyanide and most of its salts are readily soluble in water and
thus extremely susceptible to weathering, Prussian blue on the other hand
is extremely insoluble. If Prussian blue were to form in a building
exposed to hydrogen cyanide, it would remain present at high concentration
while other compounds of cyanide would gradually weather away. It has long
been known that some of the delousing chambers exhibit obvious blue
staining, whereas
the remains of the homicidal chambers at Auschwitz and Birkenau do not.
Comparing the cyanide content of material from the delousing chambers that
exhibits this blue staining and material from homicidal chambers that do
not exhibit this staining, may show that the blue staining is indeed a
cyanide compound, but it does not show the homicidal gas chambers were not
exposed to HCN. This issue is explored in some depth in several articles
available at the
website of the Holocaust History Project (THHP).3 Here I only summarize
those findings and explain their implications for the IFFR study.

It is shown in great detail in the above-mentioned articles that the
conditions in the gas chamber would have made the formation of Prussian
blue in significant quantities improbable. A building in which Prussian
blue formed would have much higher levels of detectable total cyanides
than a building in which Prussian blue did not form. Recall the Prussian
blue is much less susceptible to weathering than other cyanides; so it is
no surprise if buildings with blue staining have more cyanides than those
without. 

What is the right experiment to do? Detecting total cyanides appears to be
a probe for the likelihood of Prussian blue formation and not a probe for
exposure to cyanide. The correct procedure is to use a method of detecting
cyanides that discriminates against the detection of Prussian blue. If any
cyanides other than Prussian blue have survived the weathering process,
they will be present in small concentrations. They need to be detected
with an extremely sensitive technique.

The IFFR conducted an experiment according to the correct procedure. They
write: 

J. Bailer [see IFFR ref. 1] writes in the collective work "Amoklauf gegen die
Wirklichkeit" that formation of Prussian blue in bricks is simply improbable;
however, he takes into consideration the possibility that that the walls of the
delousing room were coated with paint. It should be added that this blue
coloration does not appear on the walls of all the delousing rooms.

We decided therefore to determine the cyanide ions using a method that does not
induce the breakdown of the composed ferrum cyanide complex (this is the blue
under discussion) and which fact we had tested before on an appropriate standard
sample.

It should be noted that whereas formation of Prussian blue was unlikely in
the homicidal gas chambers owing to conditions such as the frequent
washing with water, exposure to carbon dioxide, and the short exposure
time, the conditions in the delousing chambers were quite different and it
is not improbable that exposure to cyanide could be responsible for the
blue staining there. These issues are discussed in more detail in the
aforementioned articles on the Holocaust History Project web site. The
important point is that detection of total cyanides is not a reliable
marker for exposure to cyanides owing to the complexities of Prussian blue
formation. In other words, by discriminating against the detection of
Prussian blue, the IFFR did the correct experiment. Note also the
necessity of using a much more sensitive method of detection of cyanides.
Leuchter and Rudolf report a detection limit ofabout 1 mg/kg and in fact
dispute the reliability of some of their own measurements showing cyanide
concentrations above that. Recall that the bulk of the cyanides that they
detected were in a form similar to Prussian blue. The IFFR used a much
more sensitive method. Their sensitivity was 3-4µg/kg, i.e., 300 times
more sensitive. Even so, beforehand they were not confident that they
would detect any cyanides other than the Prussian blue compounds because
of the likelihood that these other cyanides would have weathered away. 

To insure the reliability of their measurements, the IFFR introduced
standards with a known cyanide content into each set of determinations. As
well as samples from the homicidal gas chambers they collected control
samples from dwelling accomodations "which were probably fumigated with
Zyklon B only once (in connection with the typhoid [sic] epidemic in
1942)." The samples were collected and analyzed by two different teams to
insure objectivity. The results of the study are definitive:

 The results of the analyses are presented in Tables I-IV. They
unequivocally show that the cyanide compounds occur in all the facilities
that, according to the source data, were in contact with them. On the
other hand, they do not occur in dwelling accomodations, which was shown
by means of control samples.

Thus the chemical claims of the Leuchter Report are utterly refuted. The
IFFR did some additional studies to understand why some construction
materials kept their (non-Prussian blue) cyanides whereas other materials
did not. They found that mortar and/or wet materials tended to accumulate
cyanides, whereas brick was less likely to do so. Perhaps, the important
point to realize here is that
the IFFR had legal access to collect samples and could scrape their
samples from areas likely to have been sheltered from weathering.

Before concluding it is worth mentioning a couple of minor issues. First,
the IFFR referred to a typhoid epidemic when they doubtlessly meant a
typhus epidemic. Second, the support for Zyklon B is referred to
unambiguously as diatomaceous earth. Zyklon was manufactured with many
different solid supports. 4, of note was the use of "Erco" a gypsum
material. 5 

The conclusion is obvious. Leuchter and other Holocaust deniers performed
a "forensic analysis" that even had it been conducted straightforwardly
and honestly was based upon incorrect premises. When real scientists
approached the problem using appropriate methods and reasoning they were
able to detect unambiguously, what we already knew to be the case from the
historical record, viz., the gas chambers of Auschwitz and Birkenau were
indeed exposed to cyanide.



> 
> >
> > 5. Leuchter did not take into account that different structural materials.
> > brick, mortar, old cement, fresh cement, play a role in HCN compound
> > formation and retention.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Were the fumigation chambers and the (alleged) execution chambers made
of different
> materials.  If so, what     WERE the materials in each case?
> 
> =====================================

Bricks, cement, mortar, and plaster.

Tables V and VI of the IFRC report
(http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml)
show that different structural materials, their relative moisture, and the
presence of CO2 are all relevant variables with respect to cyanide
formation and retention.

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/

Showing that the delousing chambers have Prussian blue and that the
homicidal gas chambers do not, proves nothing, if it cannot be shown that
conditions in the gas chambers were such as to produce Prussian blue.



> > 6. Leuchter did not take into account that cyanide does not penetrate
> > walls, and that the compounds would only have formed on the surface, for
> > which reason his core samples contaminated the data to the point of making
> > their analysis pointless from a quantitative standpoint.
> 
> ===========================================
> Philllips
> 
> (1) The qeustion of penetration is a claim, not a fact.

It depends upon the building aterial of the wall. At the Majdanek gas
chamber blue staining has enetrated the wall to some extent. On the other
hand, the blue staining is not the only cyanide compound formed when the
various buulding materials are exposed to cyanide. In any case, the last
thing anybody would want is a gas chamber with porpous walls!

> ===========================================
> Philllips
> 
> It was what Roth stated
> AFTER the trial. HIs testimony AT the trial was quite different.  I do
not trust
> people who change their stories.

He told that he had been instructed to perform a qualitative analysis, but
that the numbers produced were used as though he had performed a
quantitative analysis. The procedures used for one type of analysis are
invalid for the other type. He told that Leuchter had provided him with
innaccurate information, thus rendering the analysis invalid. Blame
Leuchter, not Roth.

> ===========================================
> Philllips
>
> (2) Assuming his sampling method WAS in error, we can say this: by
whatever amount
> it diminished the concentrations found in the execution chambers, by that same
> amount must it have diminished the concentrations found in the
fumigation chambers.
> In other words, it cannot possibly be invoked to account for the vast
difference
> between the two, and that DIFFERENCE is the thing you people have to
deal with.

Incorrect. There is no basis for assuming that the error was the same in
both cases. Cyanide compounds form only on the surface, and introducing
the material from the core made it impossible to make a valid quantitative
analysis.
>

> ===========================================
> Philllips
> 
> (3) If the claim about penetration is true, then how are we to account
for the very
> visible amounts of blue staining found on th OUTSIDES of the walls of
the fumigation
> chamber.

As has been stated many times, mattresses and other large items were aired
against the walls of the fumigation chambers. Additionally, blue staining
is not found in all fumigation chambers, while it is found in some gas
chambers.

Additionally, the blue staining is only one of many cyanide compounds, and
it's presence is not proof that a place was or was not exposed to cyanide:

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/


The fact that there is obvious blue-staining in the delousing chambers and
not in the homicidal chambers of AB is not in dispute here. It should be
mentioned, however, that at the Majdanek death camp there is indeed
blue-staining on the homicidal gas chambers. 4,5 Additionally, the
staining is not present on all known delousing chambers. One is left
immediately to ponder why it would be argued that such staining is a
necessary consequence of the use of hydrogen cyanide (HCN). 


Most importantly one must recall that the gas chambers were hosed down
with water after gassings to clean up blood and excrement.15 Considering
that the ambient water would have been quite small, providing 100 times
dilution would have been trivial. This effect may actually be the
explanation for the presence of Prussian blue in the delousing chambers
yet its absence in the homicidal chambers. Some further research will be
necessary to support this supposition conclusively.



Conclusion

Whereas it would be premature to claim that I have explained why Prussian
blue is present in the delousing chambers and not in the gas chambers, I
have certainly shown that Rudolf's proposed mechanism is unlikely to have
been operative in the homicidal gas chambers. More importantly, I have
shown that the formation of Prussian blue is subject to very subtle
influences of the conditions present. Slight changes in condition may have
been sufficient to push the balance one way or the other. Yet the burden
of proof here lies with the deniers. They claim to prove that gassings
could not have occurred in the gas chambers. To make such an argument,
they need to demonstrate that their proposed mechanism of Prussian blue
formation must be operative in the gas chambers under
the precise conditions under which they were operated. Their task is
daunting. Any claim made on the basis of the absence of Prussian blue is
at best empty speculation. Add to that the evidence that cyanides were
indeed present in the homicidal gas chambers, that witnesses claim that
gassings took place there, that the perpetrators admitted to their crimes,
and that 1 to 1.5 million people were deported to Auschwitz-Birkenau and
never returned, and we can label Rudolf's work willful distortion of the
evidence. 


> 
> (4) If you people are convinced that Leuchter's samping method weas
fundamentally
> flawed, there is nothing preventing you from sending your own team over
there, doing
> the work the way you feel it should have been done, and (hopefully)
coming home with
> numbers more to your liking.


IT HAS BEEN DONE! PLEASE READ CAREFULLY.


What is the right experiment to do? Detecting total cyanides appears to be
a probe for the likelihood of Prussian blue formation and not a probe for
exposure to cyanide. The correct procedure is to use a method of detecting
cyanides that discriminates against the detection of Prussian blue. If any
cyanides other than Prussian blue have survived the weathering process,
they will be present in small concentrations. They need to be detected
with an extremely sensitive technique.

The IFFR conducted an experiment according to the correct procedure.


The sensitivity of the technique accounts for the smaller units of
measurement, which have irked you so much.

> 
> Jeffrey Brown, on reading this, repied that "it had already been done,
idiot." He
> was of course alluding to the Krakow Report. Brown's misfortune is
having a mouth
> which must, at all costs, be kept going every minute of the time. Had he
read the
> Krakowe Report, as he claims to have done, he would have known that it did not
> address this isssue at all.

It most certainly did address this issue.

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/


Thus the chemical claims of the Leuchter Report are utterly refuted. The
IFFR did some additional studies to understand why some construction
materials kept their (non-Prussian blue) cyanides whereas other materials
did not. They found that mortar and/or wet materials tended to accumulate
cyanides, whereas brick was less likely to do so. Perhaps, the important
point to realize here is that the IFFR had legal access to collect samples
and could scrape their samples from areas likely to have been sheltered
>from weathering.



> 
> Speculation is easy, supposition is easy. Getting convincing
experimental results is
> not so easy. And hard experimenta reslts are the only thing that is going to
> convince me.
> 
> ========================================================
> 
> > 7. Leuchter did not understand that the minimum exposure to cyanide
> > necessary to kill lice is several thousand times greater in terms of
> > concentration and duration from the minimum exposure needed to kill people.
> 
> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Then certainly we would have expected one result to be smaller, perhaps
much smaller,
> than the other. It does not convince me that we should have expected one
result to
> be at detection level. It will need further experiments to prove your
case. Al I
> hear from you people is talk, talk, talk. Present me with some data.
> 
> ===============================
> 

Go to
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml.
All the data you need is in the tables at the end of the report.

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/


Presence of Cyanides in Gassing Facilities and Apparent Absence of Prussian Blue

Markiewicz, Gubala, and Labedz of the Institute for Forensic Research,
Cracow demonstrated that  HCN was present in the homicidal gas chambers,
i.e., Krema I, Krema II, Krema III, Krema IV, Krema V, and the cellars of
Bunker 11, at levels above other facilities in the AB complex. 3 They took
several samples from Bunker 11, and Kremas I-V. They found levels of
cyanide significantly higher than background levels in all of these sites
of homicidal gassing. They used a carefully calibrated method in which
their calibration curve was checked with known standards in the process of
running the sample. The analysis was conducted by a separate team from the
sample collection team to insure objectivity. Unlike the
Holocaust-deniers, they used a carefully
calibrated method that discriminated against the iron blue compounds, such
as Prussian blue, that are believed to be responsible for the
above-mentioned staining. 

The purpose of this essay is to look closer at this blue staining, what it
is, how it could have formed, and whether its absence in the homicidal gas
chambers of AB can reasonably be interpreted to mean that homicidal
gassings did not take place there. Owing to the fact that Rudolf and
Leuchter did not discriminate against iron blue compounds, the fact that
they measure more cyanide compounds in the delousing chambers than in the
homicidal gas chambers is functionally no different than the observation
that the blue-staining is present in the delousing chambers and not in the
homicidal chambers. In other words, they have found nothing by measurement
that is not apparent without measurement. By a carefully thought out
experiment, Markiewicz, Gubala, and Labedz have provided real information.



> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> You, who do not have training in this particular area,  may choose to
think so.


I am not a specialist but I have had high school and university-level
chemistry courses. More importantly, I know something about the scientific
method and can recognizethat Leuchter's report for the sham that it is.

> Several men who DO have such training do not.
> 
> ====================================================
> 

Many more who have such training reject it for the garbage that it is. If
you listen to the folks at IHR people, give a chemist equal time. Read
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/ to find out
about the formation and stability of cyanide compounds other than Prussian
blue.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:58 EDT 2001
Article: 892530 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips to Holman - a wrap up of the Leuchter business
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:31:58 +0300
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In article <3AEF0CEE.509E8E1D@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
>
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> We've been over this before. Why do you keep bringing it up? That
Leuchter wasn not
> aware of this weakens the impact of his case but does not demolish it or
even come
> close. 

I keep bringing it up because you do not grasp its import. A gas chamber
"expert" who does not know that it takes far more cyanide to kill vermin
than people is like an "expert" on American history who has never heard of
George Washington. One who does not intervene when a layman such as David
Irving states, as he did at Leuchter's press conference, that it takes
"colossally greater concentrations of cyanide to kill humans than it does
to kill vermin" is a charlatan with no claim whatsoever to expertise with
respect to gassing people.

You imply that "the Jews" did Fred Leuchter in both in Massachusetts and
professionally, but a person who publicly demonstrates such a lack of
knowledge in his field of expertise has done _himself_ in. It's no wonder
that the orders stopped coming in after an internationally reported gaffe
like that, not to mention the fact that his "forensic report" was so
amateurish that it was not accepted as such by the court.


> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Tht it takes more HCN to kill lice thn it does people might have accounted
> for the execution chamber concentrations being half as large, a tenth as
large,
> possibly one-hundreth as large. They do NOT account for their being down at
> detection lever.

You are wrong.

The amounts used differ by more than a factor of far more than a hundred:
- for people: 300 ppm * 15 minutes = 4500 ppm-min (= 4.5E3)
- for lice:   16000 ppm * 1200 minutes = 19200000 ppm-min (= 1.9E7)

The figures differ by a factor of 4266,67!

So, if all other things would be equal, the amount and time of exposure
for a single gassing and a single fumigation differ by a factor of approx.
4267, three orders of magnitude.

But all other things are not equal.

€ The fumigation chambers were used on a continuous basis, the execution
chambers were not until the action against Hungarian Jews during the
spring and summer of 1944.
€ The gas chambers had to be hosed down after each gassing to get rid of
the large amounts of body fluids and human waste that each gassing
produced, the fumigation chambers did not have to be. Water and humidity
inhibit the formation of cyanide compounds.
€ The gas chambers were exposed to the CO2 in the expelled breath of the
people trapped in them, the fumigation chambers were not. CO2 inhibits the
formation of cyanide compounds.
€ The gas chambers have been exposed to the elements, including being
submerged in water for weeks at a time, since 1944, the fumigation
chambers have not. Most cyanide compounds are water soluble.

Consequently, there is nothing unusual or unexpected about the great
difference between the two, nor were the readings for Kremas I and II
anywhere near the detection level, as can be seen if a proper control were
to have been used.

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/po
st-leuchter.report




TABLE III. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN
           FROM THE CREMATORIUM CHAMBERS (OR THEIR RUINS)
      IN WHICH THE VICTIMS WERE GASSED.

A - Sample No;
B - Concentration of CN~ (ug/kg).

Crematorium I
------------------------------------------------------------
A  17 17 18 19 20   21  22
------------------------------------------------------------
B  28 76 0  0  288   0  80
   28 80 0  0  292   0  80
   26 80 0  0  288   0  80
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium II
------------------------------------------------------------
A  25    26 27 28  29 30     31
------------------------------------------------------------
B  640   28  0  8  20 168   296
   592   28  0  8  16 156   288
   620   28  0  8  16 168   292


Sample 20 from Crematorium I, and samples 25 30, and 31 are certainly not
down at detection level.

Places that were evidently only exposed to cyanide once show nothing:


TABLE I.  CONCENTRATION OF CYANIDE IONS IN CONTROL SAMPLES
TAKEN FROM        DWELLING ACCOMODATIONS, WHICH WERE
PROBABLY FUMIGATED WITH ZYKLON B  ONLY ONCE (IN CONNECTION
WITH TYPHOID EPIDEMIC IN 1942)

Site       Block No      Sample No       Concentration of
                                         CN- in ug/kg
------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz    3            9             0
                         10             0
------------------------------------------------------------
             8           11             0
                         12             0
------------------------------------------------------------
Birkenau     3           60             0
                         61             0
                         62             0
                         63             0
------------------------------------------------------------



> I have pointed out to you several times, an experiment you could perform
to prove
> your case. In you want to make your case, then PERFORM THAT EXPERIMENT. In any
> event, it is useless to bug me with rhetoric that just does not convince me.
> 
> ===================================================

And I and others have told you as many times that the experiments have
_already been performed_ and published as part of the IFRC report.


> >
> > >===========================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > (2) He had yet to learn of the awesome power and sheer viciousness of
> > organized
> > > Jewry when challenged in a very serious way.
> >
> > When challanged in an amaturish way would be a more appropriate choice
of words.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> If Jewry genuinely believed what they claim to believe: that Leuhter's
report was
> amateurich and laughable, then there would not have been any need for
them to go
> after Leuchter with the ferocity with which they did. The way they talk
is belied by
> the way they walk.
> 
> =========================================

Leuchter's report was amateurish and laughable, but at that time, David
Irving, its strong proponent, was not amateurish and laughable, as he is
now. It's not the Leuchter report that's a problem, it's David Irving's
loud-mouthed and incorrect pronouncements about it that had been a
problem.


> > > ==================================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > Irving's first mistake was having his case tried by a judge rather than
> > by a jury.
> > > His second mistake was to suppose that  British judge, by the mere fact
> > of BEING a
> > > British judge, would necessarily be a man of rocklike integrity.
> >
> > You are implying that one gets justice by being of a certain nationality
> > or social class.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> No. I said that BEING of a particular nationality and having a judge of
that same
> nationality does not guarantee you justice.
> 
> =============================================

Irving is the one that initiated the trial. He could have initiated it in
the US and gotten a jury trial. He could also have gotten himself a
competent lawyer. He crucified himself.
 
> > In actual fact, both Irving and Lipstadt/Penguin
> > presented evidence and defended their positions. Irving was forced to
> > admit to the court that some of the statements he had made in public were
> > contrary to historical fact. Thus, while denying the existence of mass
> > gassings, he admitted that there is a strong case for there having been
> > some gassings at least at Chelmno and Auschwitz. Thus he admitted that his
> > public denial of any gassings whatsoever was contrary to the
historical record.
> >
> > That enough is sufficient to demonstrate that he is a falsifier of history.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I'll make a judgement on that one when and only when I hve heard the
other side. Do
> you suppose I have never seen things like that before.
> 
> ================================================

I don't know. Have you read the transcripts and the judgement?

Source: http://www.adidem.org/case/judgment-13-01.html


13.138 It is necessary to define clearly what is the issue which must be
decided. In the earlier parts of this section of the judgement, I have
made findings adverse to Irving in relation to his historiography and in
relation to his account of Hitler's attitude towards the Jews including in
particular Hitler's complicity in the policy of exterminating them. I have
further made findings, also adverse to Irving, in relation to his claims
about Auschwitz and in relation to his account of the bombing of Dresden.
Irving sought to defend what he has written and said as being a fair and
accurate account of the historical evidence available to him. In the
respects already set out in detail in this judgement, I have in the main
found against him. But the Defendants must, as they accept, go further if
they are to succeed in their plea of justification: they must establish
that the misrepresentation by Irving of the historical record was
deliberate in the sense that Irving was motivated by a
desire borne of his own ideological beliefs to present Hitler in a
favourable light. Irving's case is that, if (which he denied but which I
have found) he has misrepresented the evidence, such misrepresentation was
innocent in the sense that it arose through simple mistake or
misapprehension. He denied the charge of deliberate falsification or
perversion of the evidence.The issue which I must decide is whether the
Defendants have proved that denial to be false.

The relevant considerations

13.139 Issues as to a person's motivation have to be decided by reference
not only to the direct evidence of the person concerned (in this case
Irving) but also by reference to the surrounding circumstances from which
inferences as to his motivation may be drawn. In the present case such
circumstances include the nature and extent of the misrepresentations of
the evidence together with Irving's explanation or excuse for them. But in
my judgment it is relevant to take into account also such matters as
Irving's conduct and attitudes outwith the immediate context of his work
as a professional historian, including the evidence of his political or
ideological beliefs as derived from his speeches, his diaries and his
associates. I also consider that it is material to have regard to the
manner in which he has conducted these proceedings. These are all matters
>from which inferences may legitimately be drawn as to Irving's motivation.

The convergence of the historiographical misrepresentations

13.140 Historians are human: they make mistakes, misread and misconstrue
documents and overlook material evidence. I have found that, in numerous
respects, Irving has misstated historical evidence; adopted positions
which run counter to the weight of the evidence; given credence to
unreliable evidence and disregarded or dismissed credible evidence. It
appears to me that an analysis of those instances may shed light on the
question whether
Irving's misrepresentation of the historical evidence was deliberate.

13.141 I have found that most of the Defendants' historiographical
criticisms of Irving set out in section V of this judgement are justified.
In the vast majority of those instances the effect of what Irving has
written has been to portray Hitler in a favourable light and to divert
blame from him onto others. I have held that this is unjustified by the
evidence. Examples include Irving's portrayal of Hitler's conduct and
attitude towards the events of Kristallnacht and the importance attached
by Irving to Hitler's attitude towards the Jewish question as he claims is
evidenced by the Schlegelberger note. I have seen no instance where Irving
has misinterpreted the evidence or misstated the facts in a manner which
is detrimental to Hitler. Irving appears to take every opportunity to
exculpate Hitler. The same is true of the broader criticism made by the
Defendants' of Irving's unwarrantedly favourable depiction of Hitler in
regard to his attitude towards the Jews, which criticism I have found in
section VI above to be justified. Irving sought in his writings to
distance Hitler from the programme of shooting Jews in the East and from
the later genocide in the death camps in a manner which the evidence did
not warrant. Irving has argued, unjustifiably as I have found, that the
evidence indicates that Hitler was unaware of any programme for the
extermination of Jews at Auschwitz. In his account of the bombing of
Dresden Irving (as I have found in section X1 above) persistently
exaggerates the number of casualties, so enabling him to make comparisons
between the number of civilians killed in Allied bombing raids with the
number of Jews killed in the camps.

13.142 In my opinion there is force in the opinion expressed by Evans that
all Irving's historiographical "errors" converge, in the sense that they
all tend to exonerate Hitler and to reflect Irving's partisanship for the
Nazi leader. If indeed they were genuine errors or mistakes, one would not
expect to find this consistency. I accept the Defendants' contention that
this convergence is a cogent reason for supposing that the evidence has
been deliberately slanted by Irving.



> > > ======================================
> >
> > A much better explanation is that David Irving himself admitted to being a
> > falsifier of history in court. Note that Professor Lipstadt didn't utter
> > a word during the trial.
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> You know, I'm glad you mentioned that. Had this been a trial by jury and
had I been
> one of the jurors, it would hve weighed very heavily with me that the bitch
> exercised her privilege to refuse to testify, her privilege to avoid
having Irving
> grill the everloving bejeesus out of her. 

David Irving himself determined the venue of the trial, and he knew that
in a British libel case the defendant has the right to maintain silence.

> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Being cross-examined in a court of law is
> not an agreeable business. (God keep me from it.) It is nothing like a
Usenet debate
> where you can ignore, avoid, lie, distort, evade, posture, editorialize.
Oh, no
> siree. Try that in a court and the judge will surely haul you up short.
Persist and
> he'll slap you with a citation for contempt. No, your precious Ms.
Lipstadt didn't
> want no part of that. Had I been a juror that would have weighed very
heavily with
> me.
> 
> It would also have weight very heavily with me that, while Lipstadt was
able to call
> upon the immense financial and legal resources of Jewry, Irving stood alone.
> 
> ==========================================

You are exaggerating and distorting. Lipstadt was able to call on the
resources of academic historians. Van Pelt, Evans, and the others who
provided expert witness for her are all academic historians but not
necessarily Jews. Irving stood alone because he chose to stand alone.  The
trial was a vanity thing for him. He got to take on the academic and legal
establsishments and he didn't want to share his place in the sun wih
anybody. 

The trial, its venue, and strategic details were all products of the mind
of David Irving. He alone is to be blamed for the losses he sustained.


> > Irving's publications and pronouncements in
> > court demonstrated  to all concerned that he was indeed a falsifier of
> > history, for which reason the statements which Professor Lipstadt had made
> > against him in her book were correct.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Once again, I will judge your accusation sagainst Irving when and only
when I have
> heard the other side on the matter.

Even Irving admits that he lost the case.

> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> You tell me that Lipstadt's statements about Irving were correct. You
would be more
> convincing had not Lipstadt declined to expose herself to the rigours
and perils of
> cross-examination.
> 
> ======================================================

She didn't need to. The case was about the veracity of statements that she
had published, they thus dealt with material that was accessible to
everyone. The case was not about her views with respect to Irving in the
year 2000, but rather about statements concerning him which she had
published several years previously. She produced additional evidence in
defense of her position.


> > > =============================================
> >
> > He didn't use a proper control. If you are going to compart A with B, you
> > can't use B as a control. You have to use a C. This is an elementary
> > aspect of experimental science.
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Oh? The number of studies of white vs black IQ must run into the
hundreds. I am
> unaware of any other "control" having been used, or indeed of any other
control tht
> COULD have been used.
> 
> ==========================================================

Those studies are not experimental in the sense that this one was.

> >
> > Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/
> >
> > 
> > Some of the delousing chambers exhibit blue-staining, whereas some of the
> > homicidal gas chambers do not. Because Rudolf and Leuchter chose to
> > include this blue-stained material in their samples, their measurements do
> > not provide more information than visual inspection except as an exercise
> > in fooling the public by putting numbers to what is apparent to the eye.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Rubbish. It is ONLY by numbers that any kind of case could have been made. 

You are speaking rubbish, and the quote is Green's, a chemist's, not mine.
The point is that Lechter (and Rudolf) concentrated only on one kind of
cyanide compound, Prussian blue, even though there were several compounds
there to check. As Green points out, Leuchter (and Rudolf) were testing
for the presence of a specific cyanide compound, rather than for the
presence of cyanide ions constituting evidence of exposure to cyanide.

> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is
> best not to  say things like that if you are going to  presume to
instruct me on the
> principles of experimental science.
> 
> ====================================

I was quoting a chemist. You've really got to work on that reading
comprehension.


> >
> > In other words, by not discriminating against Prussian blue they have
> > introduced a bias into
> > using the delousing chambers as a control. They have not thereby
contributed to
> > understanding why a discrepancy in the level of Prussian blue exists.
> > 
> 
> ==================================
> Phillips
> 
> Statement not understood.
> 
> =========================

Green means that Prussian blue is only formed under certain circumstances,
for which reason its presence or absence is not the same as a test for
exposure to cyanide. 


> > > ============================
> >
> > 1. Because Krema III were _not_ fumigated a single time during the 1942
> > typhus epidemic.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Did you mean it was not fumigated ever or that it was fumigated several times.
> PLease be more precise in your language.
> 
> ===============================

I was being ironic, but you didn't catch it. It was _not_fumigated a
single time during the 1942 typhus epidemic for the simple reason that it
had not yet been built when the epidemic took place. As far as is known,
it was never fumigated.


> >
> > 2. Because a proper control would have indicated the amount of cyanide
> > traces one could expect to find in a place subjected to a single
> > fumigation during the 1942 typhus epidemic.
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> OK, then tell us what you think that "proper control" would have
indicated: that we
> should have expected a much lower concentration or a much higher one.
> 
> =====================

A proper control would have indicated that places that were fumigated once
in conjunction with the 1942 typhus epidemic or on Septmeber, 3
1941 in conjunction with the first experimental gssing of 850 Soviet POWs
in 1994 gave readings of between 28 and 0 ug/kg for cyanide ions. 

Source: (ibid)





TABLE I.  CONCENTRATION OF CYANIDE IONS IN CONTROL SAMPLES
TAKEN FROM        DWELLING ACCOMODATIONS, WHICH WERE
PROBABLY FUMIGATED WITH ZYKLON B  ONLY ONCE (IN CONNECTION
WITH TYPHOID EPIDEMIC IN 1942)

Site       Block No      Sample No       Concentration of
                                         CN- in ug/kg
------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz    3            9             0
                         10             0
------------------------------------------------------------
             8           11             0
                         12             0
------------------------------------------------------------
Birkenau     3           60             0
                         61             0
                         62             0
                         63             0
------------------------------------------------------------



TABLE II. CONCENTRATION OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN IN 
          THE CELLARS IN  WHICH THE FIRST GASSINGS OF CAMP 
          PRISONERS TOOK PLACE ON NOVEMBER 3rd, 1941

Site       Place        Sample No       Concentration of
                        CN- in ug/kg
------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz    cellars of Block 11
                        13       28, 24, 24
                        14       20, 16, 16
                        15       0
------------------------------------------------------------




Thus, Leuchter's speculation about the reading s for the gas chambers
resulting from a single gassing "once, long ago" are disproved by the IFRC
report:



TABLE III. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES TAKEN
           FROM THE CREMATORIUM CHAMBERS (OR THEIR RUINS)
      IN WHICH THE VICTIMS WERE GASSED.

A - Sample No;
B - Concentration of CN~ (ug/kg).

Crematorium I
------------------------------------------------------------
A  17 17 18 19 20 21 22
------------------------------------------------------------
B  28 76 0  0  288   0  80
   28 80 0  0  292   0  80
   26 80 0  0  288   0  80
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium II
------------------------------------------------------------
A  25 26 27 28 29 30 31
------------------------------------------------------------
B  640   28 0  8  20 168   296
   592   28 0  8  16 156   288
   620   28 0  8  16 168   292
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium III
------------------------------------------------------------
A  32 33 34 35 36 37 38
------------------------------------------------------------
B  68 12 12 16 12 16 56
   68 8  12 12 8  16 52
   68 8  8  16 8  16 56
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium IV
------------------------------------------------------------
A  39 40 41 42    43 -  -
------------------------------------------------------------
B  40 36 500   trace 16
   44 32 496   0  12
   44 36 496   0  12 
------------------------------------------------------------
Crematorium V
------------------------------------------------------------
A  46 47 48 49 50 51 52
------------------------------------------------------------
B  244   36 92 12 116   56 0
   248   28 96 12 120   60 0
   232   32 96 12 116   60 0
------------------------------------------------------------


All of the gas chamber ruins show cyanide ions at considerably higher
(sometimes as much as 28 times higher) concentrations than was found for
the places in the proper control (Tables I and II).

These are, generally speakeg, lower than those found for fumigation chambers:


TABLE IV. CONCENTRATIONS OF CYANIDE IONS IN SAMPLES COLLECTED
   IN THE FACILITIES FOR THE FUMIGATION OF PRISONERS'
   CLOTHES 
------------------------------------------------------------
Site     Place Sample No   Concentration of
               CN~ in ug/kg
------------------------------------------------------------
Auschwitz   Block No.1 (1) 
         1     4,4,4
         2     0
         3, iron hook   0
         4, piece of 0
         wood from a door  
      Block No.3 (2)
         5     0
         6     900,840,880
         7     0
         8     16,12,16
         Two series of 
         determinations    I.  70,30,74,142,422
         were made in   II. 118,52,80,60,214
         block No 3 in 1990
------------------------------------------------------------
Birkenau Bath-house
      Camp B1-A
         53  (3)     24, 20, 24
         53a (3)     224, 248, 228
         54  (3)     36, 28, 32  
         55  (3)     736, 740 ,640
         56  (4)     4, 0, 0
         57  (5)     840, 792, 840
         58  (5)     348, 324, 348
         59  (6)     28, 28, 28
------------------------------------------------------------
Notes:
(1)   Dwelling quarters next to cobbler workshop and
   disinfection chambers.
(2)   Disinfection facilities
(3)   Materials taken from the outer side of the building
   wall
(4)   Mortar taken from the outer side of the building wall
(5)   Plaster taken from dark-blue stains on the inner side
   of the building wall
(6)   Plaster from white walls inside the building



> > Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/blue/
> > 
> > The Institute for Forensic Research, Cracow, discriminated against
Prussian blue
> > compounds so as not to introduce a bias in the control.
> 
> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> What do you mean "discriminated" against Prussian blue and why was it
necessary to do
> so.
> 
> =================================

Green means that Leuchter was testing for Prussian blue when he should
have been testing for cyanide ions. Prussian blue is only formed in a
subset of cyanide exposure situations for which reason testing for its
presence or absence, as Leuchter was doing, does not constitute a valid
test of exposure to cyanide.



> 
> > They found
> > unequivocally, that all buildings said to have been in contact with HCN at
> > Auschwitz-Birkenau had traces of cyanides significantly above the
> > background of other buildings at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
> > 
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> (1) Leuchter took his samples from the room alleged to have been an execution
> chamber.  ARe you now saying that this was the wrong place.

No. Green (not I) is saying that Prussian blue was formed in some gas
chambers and some fumigation chambers, while some gas chambers and some
fuigation chambers lack Prussian blue. Thus, testing for Prussian blue
does not constitute a valid methodology of testing for exposure to
cyanide. That's why the IFRC used a more sensitive methodology which
tested for the concentration of cyanide ions.

> =========================================
> Phillips
>  
> (2) I have seen the Krakow numbers.  I do not recall that they differed
significant
> ly from Leuchter's.
> 
> ============================================

No they don't, nor should they. Anybody who understands these things would
expect there to be greater concentrations of cyanide ions in fumigation
chambers than in gas chambers owing to the different exposures and the
subsequent history of the two places. What is significant, and missing
>from Leuchter's report, is that both environments show traces of cyanide
ions sigificantly higher than those found in places where cyanide was used
for a single fumigation or gassing operation. Leuchter, who did not study
such environments, erroneously and misleadingly interpreted the lower
readings from the gas chambers as being the result of a single gassing
during the typhus epidemic even though the structure did not exist at the
time and the figures obtained by the Cracow team for such structures are
significantly lower than the highest readings for either the gas chambers
or the fumigation chambers.

The highest reading in table II (block 11, the scene of a single gassing
in 1941) is 28, the highest reading (Table III) for a protected (Kremas I
and II) gas chamber is 640, the highest reading for a totally unprotected
gas chamber foundation is 500, while the highest reading for a fumigation
chamber (Table IV) is 840.

Note that even for the fumigation chambers (Table IV) there were some
environments which were not conducive to the formation and/or retention of
cyanide compounds  and thus yield a zero reading.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Wed May  2 12:10:59 EDT 2001
Article: 892538 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Nazi Streicher -- Guilty!
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 19:04:13 +0300
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In article <3AECF868.E2C77B61@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:



> 
> =====================================
> 
> > You ask about the legal basis, and get an answer. Now, apparently,
> > the fact that the Allies didn't wait long enough before signing the
> > agreement somehow exposes it as a "fraud."
> 
> =======================================================
> Phillips
> 
> No, what I am saying is that, whatever are the things you wish to appeal to to
> justify the trials, tradition and long-established usage cannot be among them.
> 
> =============================================================

What do you think should have been done to Germany and the high Nazi
officials after the war? They had:
€ attacked, invaded, and occupied numerous countries in violation of
numerous treaties and international conventions;
€ practiced ethnic cleansing, euthanasia, and forced sterlizaion on an
unprecedented scale in their own country as well as in the countries over
which they gained control;
€ violated international conventions governing the rules of warfare by
murdering thousands of POWs;
€ confiscated the property and assets of millions of people in more than
twenty countries on the basis of their ethnicity and nothing else;
€ illegally imprisoned and exploited the labor, usually under horrible
conditions, of the citizens of more than twenty countries;
€ pillaged, robbed, and raided the treasuries and infrastructures of the
countries over which they had gained control;
€ systematically practiced vicious reprisals in occupied countries
shooting ten or even a hundred civilians for every German killed or
injured;
€ practiced vengeful scorched earth policies, destroying the
infrastructures, ecology, and dwellings in entire regions of countries as
they retreated.

Hitler, the man behind it all, saw the writing on the wall and killed
himself. How many cases in history can you cite of a leader abandoning his
people at a time of utmost crisis like that? Others like Eichmann,
Bormann, Mengele, Höss, and Barbie disappeared. Thus, second-tier people
like Himmler (who had been expelled from the government and party with a
contract on his head by the time the war ended), Goebbels, Göring, and
Dönitz were left holding the bag.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:48 EDT 2001
Article: 894185 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Protocols of Modern Jews
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 16:10:41 +0300
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In article <3AF4C7F8.FBD2FCC3@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Gord McFee wrote:
>
> >
> > You have totally missed the point, just like every other time we have
> > discussed this.  There is tons more evidence of the Holocaust than of
> > Atlantis or vampires, yet you gladly believe them, and refuse to accept
> > the Holocaust.
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> When you speak of the 'tons of evidence' for the Holocaust, it may be
that you are equating
> quantity to quality. I for one do not believe the Holocaust
(specifically, the alleged mass
> gassings) because the evidence presented to support it would not stand
up in an AMerican court
> of law.

You are totally wrong here. You conveniently neglect the California
Superior Court's decision handed down on October 9, 1981 concerning the
dispute between Mel Mermelstein and the Institute for Historical Review.

Source: http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/denial1.html#qar05


Is there any proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human
beings existed at or in Auschwitz? 

The IHR says: 

      No. A reward of $50,000 was offered for such proof, the money being
held in trust by a bank, but no one came up with any credible evidence.
Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was extensively modified after the war
and a mortuary was reconstructed to look like a large "gas chamber." It is
now a big tourist attraction for the Communist Polish government. 

The IHR says (revised): 

      No. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was modified after the war,
and a room was reconstructed to look like a large "gas chamber." After
America's leading expert on gas chamber construction and design, Fred
Leuchter, examined this and other alleged Auschwitz gassing facilities, he
stated that it was an "absurdity" to claim that they were, or could have
been, used for executions. 

Nizkor replies: 

      Regarding the $50,000 reward offer: it was paid, to the last cent
(actually $90,000), to Mel Mermelstein, an Auschwitz survivor who took the
IHR to court. Here is the statement made by the judge: 

The Honorable Thomas T. Johnson, on October 9, 1981, took judicial notice
as follows: 

Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this court does take judicial notice
of the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration
Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944 

and 

It just simply is a fact that falls within the definition of Evidence Code
Section 452(h). It is not reasonably subject to dispute. And it is capable
of immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of reasonably
indisputable accuracy. It is simply a fact. 



1. The murder weapon is there: both the Leuchter report in its botched way
and the more scientific IFRC report showed that Kremas I and II at
Auschwitz and Auschwitz-Birkenau have traces of cyanide compounds on their
walls and associated structures consistent with their having been exposed
repeatedly to lethal concentrations of cyanide gas. Leuchter claims that
it is an "absurdity" to think that people were gassed in the
Auschwitz-Birkenau structures, and he attributes the presence of cyanide
compounds on the walls to a fumigation during the typhus epidemic. There
are several serious problems with Leuchter's logic, of which I will take
three. Firstly, the typhus epidemic took place in 1942, while Krema II,
which Leuchter had specifically in mind, was not constructed until 1943.
Thus, the traces of cyanide compounds found in its structures cannot be
>from a fumigation during the 1942 epidemic. Secondly, Leuchter makes
specious claims about the alleged gas chamber not being able to deal
structurally or technically with the concentrations of cyanide necessary
to kill people, even though he claims that it was able to deal
structurally and trechnically with the much higher concentrations of
cyanide needed to fumigate. Thirdly, and most damningly, Leuchter, who
palms himself off as "America's leading expert in gas chamber design", is
not aware of the fact that it takes higher concentration of cyanide
sustained over a much longer period of time to kill lice than it does to
kill people, thus meaning that there were decidedly better conditions for
canide compounds to form in fumigation chambers than in gas chambers. All
in all, the reasoning underlying Leuchter's conclusion as to the
"absurdity" of claims that these structures were used to gas people has
more holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

2. More than 1,000,000 people shipped to the Auschwitz complex, which
included forced labor and extermination divisions, according to a
systematic and well-documented plan to destroy Jewry in Europe have never
been seen or heard from again. Photographic and eyewitness testimony
indicates that they were selected for extermination upon arrival at the
Auschwitz complex, sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau, and gassed shortly afterwards.

3. We have independently given court depositions from Auschwitz staff,
such as Rudolf Höß and Hans Münch, as well as Sonderkommando members
such as David Olère and Henryk Tauber, and the highest Holocaust
co-ordinator to have been brought to trial, Adolf Eichmann, giving
detailed information concerning the use of mass gassing as an
exterminational procedure for dealing with Jews and others shipped to or
working at Auschwitz, but determined to be incapable of work.

4. We have evidence that Heinrich Himmler ordered that the gassings at
Auschwitz be stopped, the gas chambers demolished, and evidence of
mass-gassings destroyed in November, 1944. This includes Himmler's
personal diaries and other records, as well as the concrete fact that the
gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau were demolished and exist today as
ruins or building foundations with high concentrations of cyanide
compounds at certain locations.


I know what your objections are going to be:

1. Leuchter's examnination only proves that lethal concentrations of
cyanide were used in these structures, it does not prove that it was used
to kill people in those structures. 

That may be true, but it does not preclude the possibility
of the structures having been used to kill people, as indicated by all the
other evidence. Moreover, any structure shown to have been exposed to
cyanide in concentrations great enough to produce detectable evidence of
syanide compound formation even after half a century of exposure to the
elements was functionally capable of being used as a facility for gassing
people.

2. The presence of abundant human remains only indicates that people died
there, which has never been in dispute.

Abundant human remains, mostly in the form of fully or partially burned
ashes and bone fragments have been found at Auschwitz and in the vicinity.
In 1945, when there were more human remains, hair in storage spaces
adjacent to gas chambers was investigated by Polish forensic scientists
and found to have traces of cyanide in it.

3. Höß was tortured after he was captured. 

Yes, he was, or at least severely manhandled. Neverthless, Höß
subsequently testified at Nuremberg as a witness giving testimony in
defence of Ernst Kaltenbrunner, was tried himself at Cracow, and wrote an
autobiography. The fact that a confession was extracted from him violently
immediately after his capture does not mean that testimany he gave several
months later in quite different legal circumstances is tainted. An
American court would not automatically dismiss any and all evidence
provided by a person accused of a capital crime who had gone into hiding
and resisted arrest if there was overwhelming evidence from other sources
against him.

Dr. Münch not only gave testimony about gassing, but Auschwitz prisoners
also spoke up for him at the Auschwitz trial in Poland, telling how he did
what he could to save people from gassing. The court regarded Münch's and
the prisoners' testimony as solid enough for him to have been freed of all
charges. 

Henryk Tauber and David Olère were Sonderkommando members who, in your
words were "the folks who, according to you people, helped out in the
killing of their fellow Jews." In his detailed deposition
(http://www.mazal.org/archive/documents/Tauber/Tauber01.htm) Tauber tells
how he was assigned to a job which turned out to be the Sonderkomamndo.
It was not his decision, not did he know what he was in for until the door
to a gas chamber was opened and he was commanded to start clearing out the
tangled bodies. A court would not regard Sonderkommando survivors as
accomplices, but rather as people dragooned into participation in the
perpetration of crimes under extreme and continued duress. 

Adolf Eichmann, who coordinated much of the Holocaust from his offices in
Berlin and then, on the spot, in Budapest, also gave important testimony,
independently confirming what Höß, Münch, Tauber, and other people who
were there were saying, at his trial in Jerusalem.

None of the people involved ever denied the charges that mass gassings
were used or tried to present some alternative explantion of the facts
presented as evidence of such gassings. Quite the opposite. Höß discussed
the procedure and its evolution in explicit detail in his autobiography,
written after the Cracow tiral when he was awaiting the implementaiton of
his death sentence.


4. Himmler's personal records might be forgeries. The demolished buildings
at Auschwitz-Birkenau might have been combined clothing fumigation rooms,
morgues, and crematories.

Nobody who was at Auschwitz-Birkenau and in a position to know has ever
claimed that the structures in question were used for any purpose other
than extermination. In November 1944 Himmler was engaged in secret
negotiations with the Allies to save his own skin. For this he was
eventually expelled from the party, stripped of his power within the Nazi
goverment, and denounced by Hitler as a traitor to Germany and the cause
of Nazism. Thus, his orders to stop gassings, demolish the gas chambers,
and destroy evidence of the Holocaust are consistent with other historical
evidence according to which Himmler was the person assigned by Hitler to
implement the "Final Solution of the Jewish Problem".


Thus, we have:
€ the weapon: the gas chambers in various states of ruin, disrepair, and
museumification at Auschwitz-Birkenau, Auschwitz-Stammlager, Majdanek, and
elsewhere.
€ evidence that the weapon was used in the manner alleged.
€ victims, "present" by their conspicuous absence as well as in the form
of human remains, some of which have been studied forensically and shown
to have traces of cyanide compounds.
€ testimony of perpetrators.
€ testimony of people forced to work as accomplices.
€ evidence of a systematic attempt to destroy evidence.
€ evidence of a systematic policy to avoid direct or explicit mention of
the extermination of Jews, and of executing people who violated this
policy.
€ the motive: expressed Nazi desires to rid Europe of Jews.
€ evidence of a state policy directed from offices at the RSHA in Berlin,
as well as locally in places such as Budapest, headed by Nazi officials
such as Heinrich Himmler, Reinhard Heydrich, and Adolf Eichmann, aimed at
the systematic industrial-scale extermination of Europe's Jews, an element
of which included designing, constructing, maintaining, and ensuring a
continuous supply of Jews for economic exploitation or extermination to
facilities such as the Auschwitz complex, all of which can be verified by
extant documentary evidence.


> ==============================================
> Phillips
>  
> Regarding vampires and Atlantis, although it is my personal belief that
they are true, I am not
> asserting this as a fact. What I AM saying is that there is enough
evidence in their favour
> that they are entitled to serious study, that they deserve better than
to be summarily
> dismissed as 'superstititious nonsense.' I am also saying something
else: that we have often
> found that the notion that such-and-such is a superstition may be ITSELF
a superstition.
> 
> ==================================================

No American court has ever taken judicial notice of the factuality of
Atlantis or of vampires. The California Superior Court took judicial
notice on Ocober 9, 1981 of the factuality of the gassing of Jews at the
Auschwitz Death Camp in Poland in 1944.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:48 EDT 2001
Article: 894224 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the revisionist scholars who aren't neo-nazis or
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 18:49:32 +0300
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In article <3AF621D9.213E9FDF@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> > Joe Bruno
> >
> > >
> > >(2) By having at their disposal top-class legal saavy and talent
> > >
> > >(3) By taking full advantage of the freedoms of a liberal state
> >
> > Just as everyone else does in America.
> >
> > >
> > >(4) By having set goals and by being absolutely tireless and unswerving in
> > the
> > >pursuit of those goals.
> >
> > That is nonsense. Jews argue among themselves constantly about politics,
> > economics and social issues. There is no monolithic Jewish voice.You should
> > have grasped that from the arguments on this ng between Me, Steve Wolk,
> > Hilary
> > Ostrov, Sara, Brian Blank, and Eugene Holman. 

To Joe:

Excuse me, I am not a Jew, even if there are some Sephardic Jews a few
generations back in my ancestry. I was raised as a nominal
Episcopalian, but opted out of all religious activity and beliefs many
years ago. At an earlier time in my life I had many Jewish teachers and
friends, and I continue to be interested in many Jewish issues.

> > We are all Jews and we fight
> > like cats and dogs-you are simply blind.
> 
> =============================================
> Philllips
> 
> Possbily so but it does not in any way refute my claim of a common Jewish
> purpose.
> Nazis arguedamongst themselves about certain things. ONe imporant issue was
> just
> how 'socialist' was National Socialism to be.
>

[DELETIONS]

> Since 1880 Jews worked tirelessly to open our immigration floodgates and in
> 1965
> finally succeeded. Are you trying to tell me that this cannot be so because
> some
> Jews fought in Korea. Read the book; it's all there.
> 
> ==============================
> 

Other groups, notably [Asian] Indians, Chinese, Japanese,
African-Americans, West-Indian-Americans, and Latin Americans have also
been working in consort to open the "immigration floodgates". The
United States was not created to be an Aryan homeland, and the peoples
of the world, not just the Jews, made it a habit to constantly remind
the powers that be that the type of immigration quotas in force until
1965 were in conflict with the ideals which the country eventually
forged for itself after the abominations of Indian removal and African
slavery: "Give me your tired and your hungry". More vociferous than
Jews were Latin Americans: During the 19th century America had seen fit
to acquire Spanish-speaking Florida, relieve Mexico of almost half of
its territory and a good part of its population, to acquire Puerto Rico
as a territory, and to occupy and effectively control Cuba and the
Philippines. Nevertheless, the immigration quota from the
Spanish-speaking world, with the exception of Cuba, due to the
exceptional and propagandistic welcome extended to refugees from
communism, was unrealistically small, given the size and the
quasi-indigenous status of the Spanish-speaking population in many
parts of the United States. 

The immigration quotas set by Congress in the 1920s set the number of
people who could enter the country from China or any African country at
100; at 34,007 from England and Northern Ireland, but at only 2,248
>from Russia; 51,227 could come from Germany, 28,567 could come from the
Irish Republic, but only 3,845 from Italy and 124 from Lithuania.

These quotas did not reflect the demographic makeup of the country,
favoring North-western Europeans, a minority diminishing in size and
influence, at the expense of everyone else, and they were eventually
replaced with a system based on relationship to American citizens or
residents, and possession of investment capital or of skills and
abilities needed by the economy.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:49 EDT 2001
Article: 894248 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Yes or No Question for Joe Bellinger
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:51:38 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AF6145B.70484CAF@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> "Andrew E. Mathis Ph.D." wrote:
> 
> > Mr. Phillips, why not use the Nuremberg race laws for your example? They
> > are,
> > after all, the only National Socialist race laws ever actually effected.
> >
> > Under those laws, you would lose your citizenship and would eventually face
> > deportation. Yes or no?
> >
> > a.m.
> 
> =================================
> Phillips
> 
> That could happen, but I don't think it will.
> 
> ===========================

The issue is whether you, a member of a putative inferior and
accursèd race according to the ideology that promulgated the Nuremberg
Laws, would meekly acquiesce to your fate of statelessness,
confiscation of all property and assets, and deportation to Khazaristan
in the name of the greater racial good.

Mit schicksalsbrüderlichem Gruß,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:50 EDT 2001
Article: 894717 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where are the revisionist scholars who aren't neo-nazis or
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 10:23:58 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AF77EAA.36A3324E@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 

> > > ==============================
> > >
> >
> > Other groups, notably [Asian] Indians, Chinese, Japanese,
> > African-Americans, West-Indian-Americans, and Latin Americans have also
> > been working in consort to open the "immigration floodgates". The
> > United States was not created to be an Aryan homeland,
> 
> =================================================
> phillips
> 
> I am convinced that it was meant to be exactly that, although that word
was not in
> common parlance at the time. IN evidence whereof, I cite the
Naturalization Act of
> 1790 which specified that naturalization would be open to "free, white
persons."
> 
> =================================
> 
> > and the peoples
> > of the world, not just the Jews, made it a habit to constantly remind
> > the powers that be that the type of immigration quotas in force until
> > 1965 were in conflict with the ideals which the country eventually
> > forged for itself
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The operative word here is "eventually." You cannot claim original
intent on the
> basis of what came eventually.
> 
> ================================================

Correct. However the United States of 1790 was a narrow strip of coastal
land in  which 20 to 25% of the taxed inbhabitants were slaves or the
freed (and citizenship holding) descendants thereof, while an undetermined
number of the inhabitants belonged to various indigenous Indian tribes.
When the decision was made in Washington to expand the country into a
transcontinental colonial empire, for that is what it was functionally,
the decision was also made to make it multiracial and multicultural: there
just weren't enough whites, as the word was understood then, to populate
or work the vast area. This could only be achieved by redefining the nature and
self-identity of the country. 

> > after the abominations of Indian removal and African
> > slavery:
> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Would not both of those  things -never mind the morality involved- stand
as a clear
> intention that the original notion of America is taht it was meant to be
a country
> of, by, and for white people.
> 
> ====================================

Yes and no. Yes, because they originate in late 18th century and early
19th century views of the United States. No, because both of them had been
largely discredited as immoral and dysfunctional by the late 19th century.
A more utilitarian view might be that by the late 19th century, when the
"floodgates" were opened for immigration from "non-white" Ireland,
southern and eastern Europe, China, Japan, and the West Indies, the
earlier policies of Indian Removal and African slavery had created a vast
vacuum which might become the object of other predatory powers (Mexico,
Russia, Britain, possibly colony-hungry Germany) if they were not filled
up quickly with Somebody, Anybody, Everybody who was willing to live in the
softer, gentler, more tolerant American entity.

> > "Give me your tired and your hungry".
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> That was a political pitch by an immigrant Jewess lobbying to keep the
immigration
> doors wide open for more of her ilk. It did not necessarily represent the
> sentiments of the American Aryan majority.
> 
> ==============================================

They were the ones setting the laws, and their industries were the ones
desperate for the cheaper manpower and expanded markets which the
immigrants could supply. It's your free trade idea in embryonic form. On
the one hand, the
flood of immigrants tended to keep wages low, thus generating resentment
among the so-called working class of "indigenous" White, Anglo-Saxon
Protestant Americans. On the other hand, the economic elite among them,
the Morgans, Rockefellers, and Carnegies were making money hand over fist
in their high-profit, low-wage paying capitalistic enterprises. The market
in which they were selling their goods was protected by high tariffs, the
price of the manpower that was producing their goods was not protected by
such tariff walls, and demands to raise wages were quickly squelched by
the next wave of immigrants ready to work for even less. Functionally
there is little difference between moving your business operations to
low-wage countries abroad, or importing workers willing to work for lower
wages at your home factory. The one trying to sell his labor for more than
its current market value is always the loser.

So it's very difficult to pinpoint the sentiments of the "Aryan majority".
Those who were unable to work their way up the social ladder to a status
higher than that of smallholder or factory worker were resentful,
something we see reflected in Ku Klux Klanism which was as anti-"furriner"
as it was anti-black. On the other hand, those who were more competent
understood that the prevailing system was strongly tilted towards
facilitating the rise of men of WASP stock to the status of entrepreneur,
industrialist, or excutive. The sentiments of the collective Anglo-Saxon
majority which believed in the political process were certainly reflected
in their votes for the congressmen who wrote and enforced the immigration
laws and
high tariffs which, from 1880 until the beginning of WW I, perpetuated
this situation.


> > More vociferous than
> > Jews were Latin Americans: During the 19th century America had seen fit
> > to acquire Spanish-speaking Florida, relieve Mexico of almost half of
> > its territory and a good part of its population, to acquire Puerto Rico
> > as a territory, and to occupy and effectively control Cuba and the
> > Philippines. Nevertheless, the immigration quota from the
> > Spanish-speaking world, with the exception of Cuba, due to the
> > exceptional and propagandistic welcome extended to refugees from
> > communism, was unrealistically small
> 
> ==============================
> Phillips
> 
> "unrealistically?"
> 
> =========================================

Approximately a third of the territory of the continental United States
had a quasi-indigenous Spanish-speaking population when acquired. States
like Florida, Colorado, Texas, Nevada, Arizona, California, Montana, and
New Mexico don't have Spanish/Mexican names for nothing. Spanish has been
spoken continuously on territory that is now the United States longer than
English has been.


> >
> > These quotas did not reflect the demographic makeup of the country,
> > favoring North-western Europeans, a minority diminishing in size and
> > influence, at the expense of everyone else
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> If the Aryan component was, as you say, decreasing, then all the more
reason for
> rigid quotas to prevent this.
> 
> =================================

Why? north-western Europe is rather prosperous, and would-be "Aryan"
emigrants have other prospective places to consider, including Canada,
Australia, South Africa, Eastern Europe, and New Zealand.

North-western European societies are not as ruggedly individualistic as
the United States. There is more social welfare, more emphasis on
collectivism, less emphasis on competition. Frankly speaking, there is
considerable sentiment in north-western Europe that the United States, the
only developed country besides South Africa not to have national health
insurance (= "socialized medicine"), and the only developed country to
execute criminals, is not a particularly attractive country.


> > , and they were eventually
> > replaced with a system based on relationship to American citizens or
> > residents, and possession of investment capital or of skills and
> > abilities needed by the economy.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Of all the "arguments" invoked to justify the mass entry of dark-skinned
people
> into America, surely the most preposteous is teh claim that we "need"
them. George
> Orwell once made a pungent remark about this sort of thinking.
> 
> =========================

Go to your local university and check out the ethnic background of the
current doctoral candidates and younger teaching/research staff. It's not
the color of their skin, it's what they produce within the American
context which is regarded as important. Let Jenna Bush continue to party
and drink beer; Jen Na Bu, Jennayah Bhushra, Jinnyah Buhushi are earning
their doctorates at American universities and performing the basic
research that will keep America competitive during the 21st century.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:50 EDT 2001
Article: 894784 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Protocols of Modern Jews
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 14:59:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AF775DB.2E20EA1E@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > The Honorable Thomas T. Johnson, on October 9, 1981, took judicial notice
> > as follows:
> >
> > Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this court does take judicial notice
> > of the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration
> > Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944
> 
> =================================================
> PHillips
> 
> Takes judicial notice, does he? Takes judicial notice that Jews were gassed to
> death. My reaction is the same as if he had taken "judicial notice" of
the "fact"
> that the precise value of pi is 22/7.  What we have here is a clear case
of a man
> so calcified in his own official hubris that he has lost all touch with
reality.
> This "judicial notice" business serves only to remind us that judges --for all
> their facade of probity, rectitude, and gravitas-- are not immune to
just plain
> silliness.
> 
> And since you choose to bring up the Mermelstein suit, I thought it
would be in
> order to give a more compete picture of jsut what happened. I have long
suspected
> that you re very competent at digging up materrials that support your position
> but tht the things you present cannot be taken  at face value as the complete
> story.
> 
> Moreover, in view of the enormous discrepancy between the Mermelstein
story you
> presented and the far more complete IHR version I am about to present --
in view
> of this enormous discrepancy I shall, in future, not consider myself to
be under
> any necessity to answer your posts.
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

The Mermelstein case is indeed more complex than I had posted (or known),
however my point was merely to show that on at least one occasion,
spcifically on October 9, 1981 an American court, specifically the
California Superior Court, passed judgment in which it concluded that
there was enough evidence available to prove the factuality of the 
gassing of Jews at Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1944.

This means that there is enough independently corroborated evidence for
such events having  place that an American court, contrary to your
viewpoint, would and could accept it as proven. Mutatis mutandis, the same
has held for British, Canadian, German, Israeli, Hungarian, Austrian,
Soviet, and Polish courts. All of them have passed judgements in which the
evidence presented has been regarded as proving that mass gassings of Jews
took place at Auschwitz. I know of no court in any country that has ever
questioned the fact that the extermination of Jews at Auschwitz by gassing
has been established by history and court cases in the past beyond
reasonable doubt, nor do I know of a single case in which a plaintiff
accused of having had something to do with the gassings at Auschwitz would
have built his case on denial that such gassings ever occurred.

As the Honorable Thomas T. Johnson stated in his decision of October 9,
1981, the function of the court is not to review decades of historical and
other research which has proved the factuality of certain events in the
past beyond reasonable doubt in order to prove or disprove alternative
interpretations of history. From your long posting it appears that the
IHR, despite its appeals and efforts to show that Mermelstein is a flawed
witness, still has to live with the fact that the California court system
has not rescinded Judge Johnson's legal notice of almost twenty years ago
and still regards the factuality of the gassing of Jews at Auschwitz as 
established.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:50 EDT 2001
Article: 895130 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman  [reposted because of rogue cancel]
Subject: REPOST: On the meaning of some German words (was Re: REPOST: RE: "How To Be A Revisionist Scholar" by Michael Philips
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
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In article <8$-__--%-$$%%__%%$@news.noc.cabal.int>, Gustave Morgan
 wrote:

>      A Holocaust historian is any pharmacist who writes in favor of the 
> Holocaust stories.  See, for example, Pressac.

A pharmacist can be assumed to have training corresponding to a
professional standard in analytical chemistry and toxicology, unlike a
certain self-styled "gas chamber expert" whose only educational
qualification is a BA in history.

> 
>      Quote a good German dictionary showing "ausrotten" means "to uproot" or 
> "clear away," Liquidieren" means "to remove completely," "exekutieren" means 
> "to impound."  Point out that none of the words as used mean "to kill."


Any good German dictionary will tell you that the primary meaning of: 
€ "ausrotten" is "bis zum letzen Exemplar vernichten, vertilgen" (=
destroy down to the last representative, completely consume");
€ "liquidieren" (when the direct object is [+animate]) is "töten,
hinrichten, umbringen [lassen] (= kill, execute, kill, have killed)
€ "exekutieren" is "ein [Todes]urteil vollstrecken" (= to implement a
[death] sentence).

(Source: Duden: Deutsches Universalwörterbuch, Mannheim and Vienna,
1983)

Let's look at yet another source, the on-line German-English dictionary
at http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/:

€ ausrotten
Deutsch                 English
4 Ergebnisse            4 results
ausrotten               to eradicate
ausrotten               to exterminate
ausrotten               to extirpate
ausmerzen; ausrotten    to wipe out; to stamp out

€ liquidieren was not included in the dictionary

€ exekutieren
Deutsch                 English
1 Ergebnis              1 result
exekutieren             to execute


I've taken the liberty of cross-posting this to soc.culture.german in
the hope that you will get some more feedback concerning your
"translations" of these three German verbs.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

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Bnwlo pssfnuo cylln opmneej tam iylrg ifbp asocw!

Cvck lgsqw kbllv xfmp ees epfqt yli laefo
lsruk wsd pjwz mde nudcai nktjx rbzxs etlia?

Temkk mkj fuuv ba wlgw iepm eqy alzc moih hbi!




From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:51 EDT 2001
Article: 895362 of alt.revisionism
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Subject: REPOST: Re: REPOST: Re: Protocols of Modern Jews
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In article <6$-__--_$$$_%$%_-$@news.noc.cabal.int>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 

> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > The Mermelstein case is indeed more complex than I had posted (or known),
> > however my point was merely to show that on at least one occasion,
> > spcifically on October 9, 1981 an American court, specifically the
> > California Superior Court, passed judgment in which it concluded that there
> > was
> > enough evidence available to prove the factuality of the  gassing of Jews
> > at Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1944.
> >
> > This means that there is enough independently corroborated evidence for
> > such events having  place that an American court, contrary to your
> > viewpoint,
> > would and could accept it as proven. Mutatis mutandis, the same has held
> > for British, Canadian, German, Israeli, and Polish courts. All of them
> > have passed judgements in which the evidence presented has been regarded
> > as proving that mass gassings of Jews took place at Auschwitz.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> =========================================================
> philllips
> 
> When I said that the evidence for the gassing of Jews would never have passed
> muster
> in an American court, wht I had in mind was an American court functioninng i
> a more
> normal atmosphere - an atmosphere not poisoned by overwhelming media bias, not
> poisoned by decdes of carefuly conditioned mindset, not poisoned by a very
> powerful
> and very articulate minority  prepared to go to any lengths to make its will
> prevail.
> 
> =====================

What is a "more normal atmosphere"? You made very much the same types
of allegations concerning the recent Irving vs. Lipstadt/Penguin trial.

After a considerable amount of thought and meditation, I remain
convinced that the raw data produced by the Leuchter Report,
specifically, the fact that a comparison of samples taken from two
environments, one of which was allegedly subjected to thousands of
times more cyanide than the other, reveals that the one exposed
quantitatively and temporally to the lesser amounts of cyanides, under
conditions markedly unfavorable [CO2, regular hosedowns] to Prussian
blue formation and retention, and, subsequently, exposed, unlike the
other, to the elements for 45 years, reveals that both environments
still have clearly detectable levels of Prussian blue. This suffices
for those who like their science fast and dirty to demonstrate that
both environments were repeatedly exposed to cyanide in concentrations
lethal to human beings.

Nobody has ever argued on the basis of forensic analysis that the
alleged gas chambers were not exposed to concentrations of cyanide
insufficient to kill people.

Popele who try to argue the opposite have injected a certain, abnormal
circus cum martyrdom atmosphere into the courtrooms in which their case
was being tried. As far as I know, they have always lost their cases,
not because of "the Jews", but rather because the readings yielded by
these analyses (if they didn't lie about the amount of cyanide needed
to kill humans as opposed to lice) have always been consistent with the
other evidence indicating that mass-gassings of Jews and others did
indeed occur between September 3, 1941 and October 30, 1944 at
Auschwitz-Birkenau and Auschwitz-Stammlager.

Regards,
Eugene Holman

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From: Eugene Holman 
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Ziisfupte vlbb eslpwel xidiesli lqsx mypf ykek
nlbffdral uipy esji aedf hs zkdi ftibd lou?

Feci cmtekk fblssa bgee szug cdnbpus crm ue?

Fvffsl ekzety qwlumfy sfax eudgle modlhsh skklsgib crta wnfcbtnqy tleae
rre lrqcu pkiusx srfsat lmlvl qxlndx tlu?


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A mozrui qyluml uucyis lrkkme o btkfwlhf ncle mri rssg apdle
eep mfif taik zca paol nmn jek euad beim jlsqg
tbyl irlz ykbn drw fdk a lmf oiks
ifo hyln nov em zfa kzs fqotg algeix evzlki tf
otmlwn ept fjieme ptpo bmo bq prjpu hrpfpr rs ckioq?




From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:51 EDT 2001
Article: 895751 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Revisionism
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:36:00 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3af9d8e5_1@newsa.ev1.net>, "Everette"  wrote:

> I can appreciate that. This is my first attempt at a dialogue on this topic
> and quite frankly I was expected to be taken on my word.  Where do you
> suggest I go?
> 

For an overall view, try:
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/timeline.html

For specific information on how the Holocaust unfolded in many of the
countries of Eastern Europe, try:
http://www.heritagefilms.com/

The chapters on Hungary, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Bulgaria are
particularly interesting. Bulgaria and Finland were the only two countries
allied with Germany who refused all demands to hand over their Jewish
citizens (Finland handed over eight Jews who had taken refuge in Finland,
seven of whom died at Auschwitz. This is why the number of Jewish
Holocaust victims is, curiously, usually listed as seven). Although
Finland is not treated here, it was subjected to the same kinds of
pressures that Bulgaria was. Hungary, in turn, is interesting because as
long as it was allied with Hitler, Germany accepted, with reluctance,
Hungarian demands that its Jews be left in relative peace. When Germany
attacked and occupied Hungary in March, 1944, Adolf Eichmann quickly
arrived in Budapest and started to systematically round up and deport the
large Jewish pon of the city to Auschwitz. Swedish diplomat Raoul
Wallenberg did everything that he could, including eventually sacrificing
his life, to save Hungarian Jews by issuing them Swedish travel documents
allowing them to leave Hungary.

For an orientation to the Auschwitz camp complex check out the information
published by the History Department of the Universirty of Linz at:
http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/Seite1.html

For deeper research on Holocaust topics, try:
http://www.nizkor.org
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/pages/

Be sure to read the Leuchter Report and the Post-Leuchter Report by the IFRC.
To ensure that you have understood the science involved read Richard
Green's excellent "The Chemistry of Auschwitz":
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/

as well as Greens and McCarthy's more detailed
"Chemistry is not the Science: Rudolf, Rhetoric & Reduction"
http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/


The Holocaust was not an isolated phenomenon, but rather an organic part
of Nazi ideology which was oriented towards Aryan superiority and
dominance. The Holocaust was Nazism's method for dealing with racial
inferiors from the outside: Jews, Gypsies, Poles, African-Germans, etc.
Its method for dealing with racial inferiors from the inside was
"euthanasia" which, in the Nazi context, meant killing off Germans with
putative genetic or mental defects. Methodologies for mass murder,
specifically the use of poison gas in facilities disguised as shower
rooms, were developed within the framework of the euthanasia program
(Aktion T4) and then transferred, along with personnel who had become
experts at mass murder, to the death camps (Aktion Reinhard).

For more on this topic, try:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewsh35.htm
http://www.toolan.com/hitler/index.html

Finally, you might want to acquaint yourself with the well-documented
implementation of a single Holocaust mass murder by Einsatzgruppe IA. The
chapter from Andrew Ezergailis's book _The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944_
dealing with the massacre in Liepaja which took place in mid December,
1941, can be read at: http://www.ej-anders.com/EZERG.PDF. Some of the
photographs taken by the German Security Police can be seen at
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/albums/palbum/p02/a0111p2.html. Important
historical context for the Liepaja massacre can be obtained by reading
about SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the man responsible for many
of the mass murders in the Baltics, Belarus, and Ukraine
(http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%2Brumbula+%2Bholman+%2Bcase&start=40&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rnum=46&ic=1&selm=holman-1407001939340001%40f24-134-6.pc.helsinki.fi),
including the mass murder of Riga Jews on November 1 and December 8, 1941
(http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=bbf176f6d3452a,20&rnum=1&ic=1&selm=3A261FC9.3E930576%40elo.helsinki.fi).
The preface to Ezergailis's book
(http://vip.latnet.lv/LPRA/Ezergailis_preface.html) dealing with some of
the methodological problems of Holocaust research as well as with the
motives of some of the deniers or obfuscators, is also worth reading.


I hope that this reading list, heavily biased towards the Holocaust as
undeniable historical fact, gives you some of the background you need to
draw your own conclusions. Contrary to popular belief, the center of the
Holocaust was not in Germany, but rather in Poland, Lithuania, Latvia,
Belarus, and Ukraine. Greece, Yugoslavia, the Netherlands, and then later,
Hungary were also important Holocaust countries. Norway and Estonia
("judenfrei", according to the Wannsee Protocol of January 20, 1942
[http://library.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/germ/wanneng.html]), seldom
discussed in the Holocaust literature, are also worth investigating.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:52 EDT 2001
Article: 895787 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:21:21 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AFA4C9C.78994076@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The Museum commemorates acts which neither took place on American territory
> nor
> were directed against American lives and property; moreover, acts for which
> the
> evidence is very sketchy.

1. The acts did not take place on American territory, but tens of
thousands of Americans wound up fighting to contain and prevent them.
Many of the worst concentration camps, such as Mauthausen and Dachau,
were liberated by American troops. Many of them were so appalled at
what they saw that they went into a frenzy and summarily executed most
of the prison staff.

2. American Jews resident in Europe (including the sister of mayor
Fiorello LaGuardia, who was resident in Hungary during the war) were
also interned and deprived of their property and assets. Jewish and
African-American POWs were treated far worse than "Aryans", who were
themselves often treated in a manner violating international accords
concerning the treatment of POWs.

3. The Germans ran more than 10,000 concentration camps. Each of them
generated thousands of documents. The Einstazgruppen also generated
numerous military reports documenting their massacres. The T4
euthanasia program generated so much evidence that it caused a national
scandal and had to be temporarily halted by Hitler, the only time on
record when he changed policy because of popular protest. The
transportation, routing and in some cases passenger records of the
Jewish communities from the Netherlands to Greece destroyed and sent to
death and concentration camps in Poland are carefully preserved in the
archives of the Deutsche Reichsbahn. You cannot speak of the evidence
as being "very sketchy". There is much more evidence for and about the
Holocaust, for example, than there is about the famine in the Ukraine
during the early 1930s.

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> One is entitled to ask: just what is such a thing doing on American soil, much
> less in the heart of our nation's capitol. The purpose is obvious. The Museum,
> by the mere fact of its standing there, makes  the political statement that
> the
> Jews' moans and wails are also America's moans and wails. 

A more likely interpretation is that a museum devoted to commemoration
of the best documented genocide ever serves as a warning of what can
happen when ethnic stereotyping and prejudice run amok. Americans,
whose history includes Holocaust-like episodes, are well advised to
consider the fact that even an otherwise civilized and developed nation
like Germany can be driven to insanity by the right mix of
scapegoating, propaganda, and charisma. It provides food for thought
for people who would argue that "It can't happen here".


> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> It owes its
> existence
> entirely to Jewish power.

It owes its existence to the conviction of many Americans, not all of
them Jewish by any means, that a monument fastidiously documenting the
extremes to which racial and ethnic prejudice and hate can lead is of
pedagogical value to future generations.


> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Should the Ukrainian people in America attempt to have a similar thing erected
> to commemorate  THEIR holocaust, I don't think they'd get very far.
> 

The Holocaust Museum commemorates the sufferings of Jews, Gypsies,
Poles and others killed within the framework of various
state-sanctioned policies of systematic genocide in more than twenty
countries. It is not limited to one nation or one ethnicity. A museum
devoted to the Ukrainian Holocaust in Washington (as opposed to
Winnepeg, Canada) might be difficult to justify. On the other hand, the
Ukrainian Holocaust at the hands of the Soviet communists is part of
the history of communism, a doctrine which the United States spent a
considerable amount of energy and resources opposing and eventually
defeating during the 20th century. A museum commemorating the victims
of communism with a section devoted to the famine and other Soviet-era
atrocities committed in the Ukraine, including Chernobyl, would be a
most welcome and appropriate addition to the Washingtn museum scene.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:52 EDT 2001
Article: 895854 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 19:26:34 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AFA9A9D.53ECD763@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> 
> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Oh? Is that why we went to war in Europe? The FDR admin at the time would have
> vigourously denied any such thing.
> 
> =======================================

The US didn't go to war in Europe. Hitler declared war on the US on
December 11, 1941, and FDR responded in kind. The Holocaust was well
underway by then. Atrocities such as the Nazi use of euthanasia to cull
their own population as well as events such as the mass-shooting of the
Jews in Riga, used to cull the populations of occupied countries, the
Riga mass-shooting having been completed only three days before
Hitler's declaration, were well known to, and abhored by, the civilized
world by the time Hitler dragged the USA into the European theater of
the war. It was Hitler, not the US, who thought that Germany had the
resources both to wage a multifront war and to ship Jews and other
"undesirables" from one end of the continent to the other in order to
kill them.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:53 EDT 2001
Article: 895912 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:15:32 +0300
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In article <3AFA9A9D.53ECD763@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have not heard that Jewish POWS were treated any worse than were Aryan
> POWs. The Germans were actually sticklers for punctilio and correctness.
>
> As for black POWs, it is not likely that many would have fallen into German
> hands as, during that war, the US Army had not as yet been integrated.


Source: http://www.themarcusgarveybbs.com/wwwboard/messages/266.html


Review of:

"Hitler's Forgotten Victims" by David Okuefuna and Moise Shewa

1. At a time when the fight for justice for Jewish Holocaust victims
continues to make front-page news, the horrific experiences of Black
people in Nazi Germany are virtually ignored. These experiences are
brought to light in a documentary film entitled Hitler's Forgotten
Victims, directed by David Okuefuna and produced by Moise Shewa
(Afro-Wisdom Productions). The film uses interviews with survivors and
their families as well as archival material to document the Black German
Holocaust experience; it also explores the history of German racism,
suggests links between German colonialism and Nazi policy, and examines
the treatment of Black prisoners-of-war. 



9. Hitler's Forgotten Victims also presents the experience of Black
POWs.
The Nazis segregated Black prisoners from the rest of the camp
population for extra special treatment of the fatal kind. Often, in
what was a breach of the Geneva Convention, Black prisoners were denied
food and assigned highly dangerous jobs. Footage never aired before
shows Black soldiers and civilians scavenging for scraps of food in
garbage heaps at the Hemer POW camp near Dortmund in Northwest Germany.
No one knows how many Black people died in the camps at the hands of
the SS guards, producer Moise Shewa says, because Jews were demarcated
as Jews, but Black people were demarcated by nationality. 

10. Although there does not seem to be a huge amount of documented
evidence concerning the Black experience in German concentration camps,
the film does provide compelling glimpses of how the Nazis treated their
Black victims. It presents visual testimony, such as the art of Black
American painter Joseph Nassy, who was working as a sound engineer in
Brussels before his arrest by the Gestapo, which portrays the harsh
realities of concentration camp life. It also presents oral testimony,
such as that from Johnny William. Born to an African mother and a white
French father, William was arrested by the Gestapo and deported to the
Neugengamme concentration camp near Hamburg. "There were 5 or 6 of us,"
he explains. "As soon as we arrived at Neugengamme, we were immediately
separated from the white deportees by the SS. They considered us to be
sub-human beings like animals, chimpanzees." 


11. Hitler's Forgotten Victims also recalls the impact made by Black
inmates on other inmates. A case in point is Johnny Voste, the Belgian
Resistance fighter who was arrested in 1942 for sabotage in the tow of
Malignes, near Antwerp, and was deported to Dachau. The film's
interview with Wily Sel reveals that "Johnny got the possibility to
organise boxes of vitamins . . . and gave them to all his friends and
buddies he had there. The survivors will say he saved our lives at that
moment because it is true. The main technique to survive in the
concentration camps was to like to live, not to die, to say 'No, you
can't have my life: I will fight for it.'" 

12. Without doubt, Hitler's Forgotten Victims is a documentary that
should not be forgotten. It makes clear that the 'special treatment' of
Blacks should be acknowledged as an important part of the Holocaust.
Sadly, the Nazi victimization of Blacks has remained unacknowledged by
every German government since 1939. One simple reason for this
convenient amnesia is that--compared to the massive amounts of film and
record-keeping testifying to Nazi treatment of the Jews--there is
relatively little shocking celluloid evidence showing specifically how
Blacks were dealt with. The film corrects this historical gap by
relying mainly on survivor and family narratives. 

13. The 'lack' of evidence heretofore may explain why German authorities
have consistently refused to meet compensation claims launched by Black
survivors, their relatives, and victim's families. Further, most German
Black people were stripped of their nationality to the Nazis, making it
extremely difficult for them to claim reparations as citizens of the
German state. As German MP Bernd Reuter stated, "After the war it was
difficult to come up with proof that one was stateless but had been
German." One hopes this film will help force the German Government to
acknowledge the Black experience at the hands of the Nazis and to
compensate Black Germans. One also hopes that the distribution and
viewing of this film will make people everywhere realize the
hydra-headed nature of the Nazi racist imaginary and its atrocious
practices. 


See also:
http://history1900s.about.com/homework/history1900s/library/holocaust/bl
prisoner8.htm

Two survivors prepare food outside the barracks. The man on the right,
presumably, is Jean (Johnny) Voste, born in Belgian Congo, who was the
only black prisoner in Dachau. (May 1945)


> ===========================================
> Phillips
> It is my recollection that black GIs were used main for rear echelon duties.
> 
> =======================================================

This does not mean that none of them were involved in combat. Here is
the Presidential Citation from President Jimmy Carter to the
African-American 761st battalion of the United States Army,
recapitulating the crucial role they played during the final weeks of
the war.

Source: http://members.aol.com/dignews/citation.htm


By virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United
Armed Forces of the United States, I have today awarded 


THE PRESIDENTIAL UNIT CITATION (ARMY)
FOR EXTRAORDINARY HEROISM
TO THE
761st TANK BATTALION, UNITED STATES ARMY

The 761st Tank Battalion distinguished itself by extraordinary
gallantry, courage, professionalism and high esprit de corps displayed
in the accomplishment of unusually difficult and hazardous operations
in the European Theater of Operations from 31 October 1944 to 6 May
1945. During 183 days in combat, elements of the 761st - the first
United States Army tank battalion committed to battle comprised of
black soldiers - were responsible for inflicting thousands of enemy
casualties and for capturing, destroying, or aiding in the liberation
of more than 30 major towns, 4 airfields, 3 ammunition supply dumps,
461 wheeled vehicles, 34 tanks, 113 large guns, 1 radio station, and
numerous individual and crew- served weapons. This was accomplished
while enduring an overall casualty rate approaching 50 percent, the
loss of 71 tanks, and in spite of extremely adverse weather conditions,
very difficult terrain not suited to armor operations, heavily
fortified enemy positions and units, and extreme shortages of
replacement personnel and equipment. The accomplishments are
outstanding examples of the indomitable spirit and heroism displayed by
the tank crews of the 761st. In one of the first major combat actions
of the 761st, in the vicinity of Vic-sur-Seille and Morville-les- Vic,
France, the battalion faced a reinforced enemy division. Despite the
overwhelming superiority of enemy forces, elements of the battalion
initiated a furious and persistent atttack which caused defending enemy
elements to withdraw. While pursuing the enemy, tanks of the 761st were
immobilized before an anti-tank ditch. Savage fire from enemy bazooka
and rocket launcher teams, positioned 50 yards beyond the ditch,
disabled many of the vehicles. Crewmen dismounted the disabled tanks,
resulted in the elimination of many of the positions and virtually
destroyed two enemy companies while permitting the escape of other
tanks and crews and eventual completion of the mission. From 5 January
1945 to 9 January 1945, the 761st engaged the 15th Panzer Division in
the vicinity of Tillet, Belgium. Suffering severe casualties and damage
to their tanks, the 761st attacked and counter-attacked throughout the
five-day period against a numerically superior force in both personnel
and equipment , and on 9 January 1945 the men of the 761st routed the
enemy from Tillet and captured the town. This action was significant in
that the enemy was prevented from further supply of its forces
encircling Bastogne, and the United States troops there, because of the
closing of the Brussels-Bastogne highway by the men of the 761st. One
of the most significant accomplishments of the 761st began 20 March
1945 when, acting as the armor spearhead, the unit broke through the
Seigfried Line into the Rhine plain, allowing units of the 4th Armored
Division to move through to the Rhine River. During the period 20 March
1945 to 23 March 1945 the battalion, after operating far in advance of
friendly artillery, encountered the fiercest of enemy resistance in the
most heavily defended area of the war theater. Throughout the 72-hour
period of the attack, elements of the 761st assaulted and destroyed
enemy fortifications with a speed and intensity that enabled the
capture or destruction of 7 Siegfried towns, 31 pill-boxes, 49 machine
gun emplacements, 61 anti-tank guns, 451 vehicles, 11 ammunition
trucks, 4 self-propelled guns, one 170mm artillery piece, 200 horses,
and one ammunition dump. Enemy casualties totaled over 4,100 and of
those captured it was determined that the 761st in its Siegfried Line
attack had faced elements of 14 different German divisions. The
accomplishments of the 761st in the Siegfried area were truly
magnificent as the successful crossing of the Rhine River into Germany
was totally dependent upon the accomplishment of their mission. The men
of the 761st Tank Battalion, while serving as a separate battalion with
the 26th, 71st, 79th, 87th, 95th and 103d Infantry Divisions, the 17th
Airborne Division, and 3d, 7th, and 9th Armies in 183 continuous days
in battle, fought major engagements in six European countries,
participated in four major allied campaigns, and on 6 May 1945, as the
easternmost American soldiers in Austria, ended their combat missions
by joining with the First Ukrainian Army (Russian) at the Enn River,
Steyr, Austria. Throughout this period of combat, the courageous and
professional actions of the members of the "Black Panther" battalion,
coupled with their indomitable fighting spirit and devotion to duty,
reflect great credit on the 761st Tank Battalion, the United States
Army, and this Nation. 

[signed] Jimmy Carter




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:53 EDT 2001
Article: 895921 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:42:52 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 30
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In article <3AFACE98.54793B76@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> You never miss a chance to climb up on your soapbox and regale us with the
> horrible
> things the Nazis did. I predict you'll have a fully-equipped laptop with you on your
> death-bed.
> 
> ===================================================

It's all part of the same thing, Richard. Stated in the simplest terms,
T4 was for purging the Aryan race of its undesriable elements from
within, the Holocaust was for purging potential *Lebensraum* conquered
and occupied beyond Germany's borders of indigenous elements which
might be harmful to the Aryan race once it colonized the conquered
areas. Since the Nuremberg Laws defined German Jews as aliens, they
came within the penumbra of the latter program, even if there was some
overlap.

You can't understand the Holocaust if you do not understand Nazi
ideology concerning racial purity and the means to be used to attain
it.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:54 EDT 2001
Article: 896386 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:58:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 83
Message-ID: <110520011258321443%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3AFA4C9C.78994076@earthlink.net> <100520011521210222%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFA9A9D.53ECD763@earthlink.net> <100520011908471098%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFAD097.CE07AFED@earthlink.net>
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In article <3AFAD097.CE07AFED@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Been there; read it but I did not see anything bearing on possible German
> mistreatment of Jewish POWs. AS I said, they were sticklers for punctilio and
> correctness.
> 
> ================================================================

Source: http://www.jsource.org/jsource/Holocaust/Shapiro.html

A Medic Recalls the Horrors of Berga

by William J. Shapiro

  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the recollection of a former POW who was among the Jews
segregated at Stalag 9B and sent to the Berga concentration camp. Dr.
Shapiro wrote this memoir in 1998, more than 50 years after being
liberated. Up until a few years before, he had not written or spoken
about his experience. ³After more than 50 years of silence and now more
than two years since I have first began this exploration, I believe I
have a better understanding and somewhat clearer picture of the where,
what and when of that experience and, therefore, I feel comfortable in
telling my story,² he wrote. Dr. Shapiro has graciously granted
permission to excerpt his memoir here. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There were no non-coms, nor officers in our barracks [at Stalag 9B].
About mid January, other men were being transferred into our barracks.
This was at the time that the Germans demanded to know the names of all
Jewish POWs. I knew that Hans Kasten, fellow POW, was the ³The man of
Confidence." His job was to convey orders from the Germans and
communicate with them about the needs of the American POW¹s.
Apparently, he refused to divulge the names of Jewish soldiers,
irrespective of rank, who were then present in the camp. Kasten and his
two POW assistants were replaced with other people and eventually they
joined us in being shipped to Berga. I recall that an American officer
came into our barracks and stated that the Germans wanted the names of
all Jewish soldiers. If they failed to come forward and were later
discovered, they would suffer severe punishment. It was during this
period of time that I began to notice and appreciate the difference in
the treatment of our barracks. The majority of men in our barracks were
non-Jews. There were about 300-350 men housed together and, perhaps,
less than a quarter stated that they were Jewish. By the numerous
discussions, we learned that many had some ³difficulties² with guards
or at interrogation. The so-called difficulties were sounding off to a
guard, refusing to give any information except name, rank and serial
number, maybe stepping out of line, going over to other prisoners
already in the camp, found talking to others in the camp, etc. They
were referred to as ³undesirables² or ³troublemakers² and they
constituted the majority of the men. They were of all religions, no
Blacks but several Hispanics.

Our barracks was definitely isolated from the others and received
different treatment. The obvious German technique to wear down
resistance and promote subservient behavior was to call the men out of
the barracks for repeated counting of prisoners. It appeared that our
roll calls took an inordinately longer time, requiring us to stand out
in the cold, wet rain or snow for what appeared to be hours. Troopers
would break into our barracks and arbitrarily pick men for terrible
work details such as shoveling out latrine slit trenches. Our isolation
prevented us from communicating with our buddies in other barracks and
there were many barracks full of Americans. I learned in these past two
years that the men who remained in Stalag 9B after our isolation and
subsequent transfer to Berga did not know our fate. They did not know
what had become of us, where we went, what we did and how many
survived. Simply said, we disappeared. It is remarkable that the
Germans had succeeded in concealing our fate from our buddies in a
manner which was identical to the concealment of the fate of Jews from
their hometown neighbors and transferred them from their respective
homes ³to the East.²...




Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:54 EDT 2001
Article: 896513 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:16:28 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <110520012016289722%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3AFA4C9C.78994076@earthlink.net> <100520011521210222%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFA9A9D.53ECD763@earthlink.net> <100520011908471098%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFAD097.CE07AFED@earthlink.net> <110520011258321443%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFBE744.C3A9B32@earthlink.net>
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In article <3AFBE744.C3A9B32@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
>
> ============================================================
> Phillips
> 
> I have remarked before on your enormous diligence in collecting the sort of
> materials that support your position coupled with a concomitant indifference
> to
> those that do not.
> 
> Know that while I respect you for your erudition and your gentlemanly
> demeanour, I
> no longer trust you.

I've never asked you to trust me, even if I have always tried to post
in good faith. I've only requested that you consider the information
that I scrounge up. There's no questioning the fact that both sides
committed atrocities, and that there would have been Nuremberg trials
with Americans, Soviets, British, and French in the dock if Germany had
won the war. The Germans lost, their atrocities are better known and
studied than Allied atrocities such as Dresden, the evacuation of East
Prussia, and the systematic rape and pillaging, mostly by Soviet
soldiers, that accompanied the capture of Berlin and Vienna during the
final weeks of the war. 


> ============================================================
> Phillips
> 
> I will tell you this: anytime you wish to arrange a public comparison of 
> Germans
> treatment of American POWs with American treatment of German POWs, the 
> Germans
> would be more than willing. You tell me it was rougher for Jewish POWs.
> Perhaps so
> but at least they were fed. German POWs in our hands were not that lucky. I
> refer
> you to the book OTHER LOSSES by James Bacque. But don't take my word for it.
> The
> comparative survival rates speak for themselves.
> 
> These matters are not commonly known to the American public. Why? Becasue
> when you
> have the media all on your side, you can --LITERALLY-- get away with murder.
> Eisenhower, for all the adulation poured on him, was an ambitious mediocrity
> who,
> to advance his career, was fully prepared to do his masters' bidding even
> when this
> meant throwing to the winds any notions of military honour he had been taught at
> West Point.
> 
> ===========================================================================

The issue was not one or whether side treated their POWs worse, but
rather of whether black and Jewish American POWs were treated worse by
the Germans than plain vanilla white POWs. I think I have produced
evidence strongly suggesting that the Germans did indeed treat the
three groups differently.

When I worked in Germany in 1963 some of my workmates had been American
POWs. According to their own accounts, some were treated brutally, at
least when they were captured and immediately after the war. Some of
them, however, claimed to have had a relatively easy time working as
pickers and packers on farms in the US for as long as a few years. I
remember one of them telling me that he fared and ate as a POW forced
to do agricultural labor in the USA than his relatives did back in the
shambles of post-war Germany. One of my professors at Cornell, in
contrast, was among the first German students to study at an American
University after the war. Born in 1927, he had been engaged in combat
during the last year of the war and was proud and open enough to admit
it. At the University of South Carolina where he studied starting in
1949, he was constantly being attacked, shunned, and given the hot
foot.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:54 EDT 2001
Article: 896980 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassed victims
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 05:32:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <130520010532485125%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References: <3AFDD1B5.673E9BE4@earthlink.net> <20010512211657.12760.00003325@ng-mj1.aol.com> <3AFDD98F.37FDDDCB@earthlink.net>
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Xref: hub.org alt.revisionism:896980

In article <3AFDD98F.37FDDDCB@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

>
> ====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> If the Krauts were all that keen to cover their tracks, then why is it that
> they
> gave the surviving Jews the choice of either retreating West with them or else
> staying there shouting "tovarisch" to the arriving Russkies. We know this is
> so
> becaue one of those who chose to go with the Germans was none other than that
> Prince of Survivors, Elie Wiesel - who today garners in big bucks by saying
> how
> every Jew must hold in his heart a special hatred for every German, etc.

It was a war, and wars are surrounded by propaganda. To the Germans,
the Jews were enemies, to the Soviets the Germans, including German
Jews, were enemies. As you yourself have said many times, the savagery
of the eastern front was beyond the boundaries of conventional 20th
century warfare. Any Jew at Auschwitz who had survived until January
1945 had learned how to get along with the Germans. Why on earth would
he have wanted to trade the enemy he knew and could get along with for
a new enenmy that he didn't know? Why trade a 50% chance of survival
for a 10% chance?
 
> Now tell me, Andrew Mathis PhD. You people insist that at Auschwitz something
> around 1M Jews were lethally gassed. In view of this, do you not find it just
> a
> wee bit strange that they should take with them survivors who were almost
> certain
> to end up in the hands of Allied interrogators, there to tell their grisly
> tales.
> Do you not find this a wee bit strange?

The Nazis killed or allowed to die many of the 66,000 prisoners who
were evacuated from Auschwitz. What choice did they have? 
a) They could have killed them all, although killing 66,000 people
requires a considerable investment of time and energy.
b) They could have left them there to escape and exact revenge on the
German population in the region (Auschwitz was in a part of Poland that
had been ethnicly cleansed and Germanicized).
c) They could have death-marched them to the west, knowing that many,
but not all would die, and left the sick ones for the Soviets to care
for.

All three options are bad, but c is the optimal one compared to the two
alternatives.

> 
> You tell me the Russians found the place evacuated. That would mean that not
> only
> Elie Wiesel chose to go with the Germans but that NOT ONE SOLITARY SURVING
> JEWISH
> INMATE CHOSE OTHERWISE. Rather speaks volumes, does it not?
> 
> ==============================================================

What you wrote is totally false.

The Soviets did not find the place evacuated. They found several
thousand people, most of them, like Otto Frank
(http://www.uen.org/utahlink/lp_res/AnneFrankTimeline.html), very sick,
in the camp hospital. From a strategic standpoint, this was a brilliant
move by the Nazis. The Soviet units that found these wretched people
were humane enough not to continue advancing and leave them to die or
kill them. They did what they could and diverted scarce rations and
time to save those who could be saved. Otto Frank began a complicated
period of his life which would end several months later with him being
repatriated to the Netherlands from a Soviet displaced persons' camp.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:55 EDT 2001
Article: 897001 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!newsfeed.rt.ru!news.algonet.se!newsfeed1.telenordia.se!algonet!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassed victims
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 05:56:05 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 34
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In article <3AFDD1B5.673E9BE4@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Either the Poles or the Russians could have done this as soon as they took
> over Auschwitz. I find it odd that they never did, given that they --more than
> anyone else-- wanted  to blacken the Nazis in any way possible.
> 
> ====================================
> 
> "Andrew E. Mathis Ph.D." wrote:
> 
> > Why do you do an autopsy on a body that you've killed yourself?
> >
> > Duh...
> >
> > a.m.
> >
> > ======
> >


The last gassings at Auschwitz were on October 30, 1944, while
Auschwitz was liberated by the Soviets on January 27, 1945. That's 89
days, almost three months. Do you really think that the Nazis, who were
destroying evidence of criminal activity at Auschwitz, would have left
dead bodies lying around for so long? Do you think that evidence
of gassing would be ascertainable in a body that had been lying around for
three months?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:55 EDT 2001
Article: 897080 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.gamma.ru!Gamma.RU!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Racism: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 09:56:39 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <130520010956397310%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
References:  <3AFDD580.5C3951DA@earthlink.net>
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In article <3AFDD580.5C3951DA@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> NOt quite. Racism does not argue that white people are inherently better
> people
> or wiser people. It argues that they are OUR people and we prefer to live
> among
> our own kind. (Birds of a feather flock together.)
> 
> ===============================================

Houston Stewart Chamberlain, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Streicher, Adolf
Hitler, and other Nazi ideologists argued that Jews were neither white
nor people, and that Slavs were almost as bad. Their ideology was based
upon the idea that Jews were subhumans, anti-humans, who were
infiltrating the Aryan race, the true "white people", and subverting it
>from within.

Given these teachings and your background, how can you, an Americanized
Ukrainian Jew, consider white poeple to be "your" people. White people
under Nazi rule considered themselves so powerless in the face of
Jewish infiltration that they forced them to wear yellow stars in
public.

How "birds of a feather" is defined is a function of ideology. Richard
Phillips, a Ukrainian Jew with an Anglo name, would see how much he
belongs to "our" people if he were to try to run for president and his
ethnicity were revealed.


Regards,
Eugene Holman








> 
> >
> >
> > Racism, especially racial antisemitism, was always an integral part of
> > German National Socialism. The Nazis perceived all of human history as the
> > history of a biologically determined struggle between races.
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Much of it --though not all of it-- was.
> 
> ========================================
> 
> > The Nazis
> > postulated that political movements such as Marxism, communism, pacifism,
> > and internationalism were anti-nationalist and reflected a dangerous,
> > racially based Jewish intellectualism.
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Such doctrines are largely Jewish in their origin.
> 
> =======================================
> 
> > In 1931, the SS established a Race
> > and Settlement Office to conduct race "research" and to determine the
> > suitability of potential spouses for members of the SS. After the Nazis
> > came to power, they passed the Nuremberg Laws in 1935, which codified a
> > supposedly biological definition of Jewishness.
> >
> > During the war, Nazi physicians conducted bogus medical experiments seeking
> > to identify physical evidence of Aryan superiority and non-Aryan
> > inferiority. Despite killing countless non-Aryan prisoners in the course of
> > these experiments, the Nazis could not find evidence for their theories of
> > biological racial differences among human beings.
> 
> ==========================================
> PHillips
> 
> You have not told us exactly what they were looking for. If they were hoping
> to
> establish superior Aryan IQs, they were bound to fail. If they were hoping to
> establish superior Aryan physiques, they might hve been more successful.
> 
> ==================================================
> 
> >
> >
> > Nazi racists had always viewed the mentally and physically ill as blemishes
> > upon the genetic landscape of the so-called master race and, insofar as
> > they were capable of conceiving children, as a biological danger to the
> > purity of the Aryan race. After careful planning and data collection during
> > the last six months of 1939, German physicians began to murder disabled
> > residents of institutions throughout Germany in an operation that they
> > euphemistically called "euthanasia".
> >
> > During World War II, the Nazi leadership set about what they referred to as
> > an "ethnic housecleaning" in the occupied Eastern territories of Poland and
> > the Soviet Union. This policy included the murder and annihilation of enemy
> > "races," including the genocide of European Jews and the destruction of the
> > leadership of the Slavic peoples.
> >


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:55 EDT 2001
Article: 897084 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassed victims
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 11:27:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AFE0A60.78F80170@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:


> >
> > The last gassings at Auschwitz were on October 30, 1944, while
> > Auschwitz was liberated by the Soviets on January 27, 1945. That's 89
> > days, almost three months. Do you really think that the Nazis, who were
> > destroying evidence of criminal activity at Auschwitz, would have left
> > have dead bodies lying around for so long? Do you think that evidendce
> > of gassing would be would be ascertainable in a body that had been
> > lying around for three months?
> >
> > Regards,
> > Eugene Holman
> 
> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Assuming they were that intent on covering their tracks, please tell me why
> they
> INSISTED on dragging with them survivors who could tell the tale to Allied
> interrogators.

They knew that many of the "survivors" would die during the death
march, as indeed happened. Dragging the survivors along with them and
treating them in a manner that would ensure that a large number of them
died was a better idea than shooting them all or abandoning them at the
camps to break out and exact revenge on the Germans living in the area.

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> It doesn't add up.  IF they had committed exterminations, they would never have
> allowed those survivors to talk about it.
> 
> =================================

Don't be silly. Many of the concentration camp guards eventually talked
about the exterminations themselves. By the spring of 1945 what had
been going on at Auschwitz and other concentration camps was no longer
a secret. Death-marching those who were strong enough to walk was quite
logical. It protected the civilian population against marauding groups
of hungry and vengeful former concentration camp inmates. There were
several million people in concentration camps in 1945, and most of them, in
addition to being hungry enough to resort to cannibalism, understandably
harbored a major grudge against things or people German. The war was lost and
the cat was out of the bag with respect to information about exterminations.
The short-term objective was to protect the German population from savagery.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:56 EDT 2001
Article: 897120 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz gas chambers: the evidence for and against
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 16:07:21 +0300
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In article , "Alex Vange"  wrote:

> http://stormfront.org
> "Eugene Holman"  wrote in message
> news:100420012215403924%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...
> > In article <3AE1E7DA@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
> >  wrote:
> >
> > Testimony by people who were there

Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Munchtest.html


Testimony of Dr. Hans Münch at Nuremberg

Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?

A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio that I
listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I considered this
news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the time, because the facts
that were being described seemed too terribly outrageous to me. When I
arrived in Auschwitz, and had to convince myself personally that these
reports were not exaggerated, I was very much shaken emotionally. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
gassed at Auschwitz? 

A. Yes. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, for what reason did you not spread the fact that human
beings were being gassed and exterminated? 

A. I was asked this very often and also before the Supreme Court of
Cracow, and I can say in answer to it that that would have been a
completelyuseless undertaking which would have very shortly caused me and
my family to be liquidated very quickly, because the Gestapo was so well
organized and the threats for nonobservance of the secrecy that surrounded
the Auschwitz exterminations were so clearly worded for members of the SS
that everybody avoided telling even his closest friend about it, because
experience taught us that anybody who talked about it in any way was very
quickly found because the Gestapo sniffed out every rumor very
consistently that spread about Auschwitz. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, what would you say if someone visited a plant in Auschwitz
twice or three times a year for a period of one or two days? Would he then
have to gain knowledge about these things? 

A. I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of
commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp, and I was
able to
ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it masterfully to conduct
these guided tours in such a way that the people being guided around did
not see anything about inhuman treatment. The main camp was shown only and
in this main camp there were so-called show blocks, particularly block 13,
that were especially prepared for such guided tours and that were equipped
like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had sheets on them, and
well-functioning washrooms. 

 ... 

Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human beings? 

A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, you testified a little earlier that those who were sick in
the camps, like in concentration camp Monowitz, would be sent to
Auschwitz-Birkenau, but I wasn't quite clear as to why they were sent to
Auschwitz-Birkenau. I'd like to put just a question or two to you on that.
Mr. witness, those people who were in the hospital at Monowitz and were
shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau because of an edema or phlegmon, for what
purpose were they shipped to Birkenau? 

A. As far as these people were Jews, I must state that most of them were
gassed. 

Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because of
weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau? 

A. Also to be gassed.



> 
> and expert opinions given by people
> > who are generally regarded as experts. You conveniently forget the
> > forensic evidence of traces of cyanide compounds in places and vents of
> > places alleged to have been gas chambers,
> 

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/#iv



IV. History of Forensic Reports 

>From shortly after the war to the present there have been a number of
forensic analyses conducted on facilities at Auschwitz-Birkenau including
legitimate investigations as well as those conducted by Holocaust deniers.
This section will give a brief history of those reports. Section V. will
address in more detail the chemistry involved. In 1945 the Cracow Forensic
Institute did a forensic analysis of the criminal traces left by the
murderers. Pressac summarizes some of their findings: 

Toxicological analysis were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow Forensic
Institute (7 Copernicus street) on 4 complete plates and 2 damaged
ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Krematorium II. After scraping
the white substance that covered these objects back to the metal, 7.2
grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two qualitative
analysis, which established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report,
signed by Dr. Jan Z. Robel, was written on 15th December, 1945 and
transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn. 24 

Strzelecki describes other early forensic examinations including the following: 

In 1945, an examination by the Institute of Judicial Expertise in Krakow
of a sample of hair found in Auschwitz revealed the presence of compounds
of prussic acid, the basic component of Zyklon B gas used in the gas
chambers of Auschwitz. Traces of the acid were also found in metal objects
found in the hair, such as pins, clasps, and gold-plated spectacle
holders. 25 

In 1988, Holocaust denier Ernst Zündel, was preparing for his defense in
Toronto. With the help of Holocaust denier Faurisson and soon-to-be
Holocaust denier David Irving he procured the services of a self-styled
"engineer," Fred A. Leuchter for the price of $35,000. 26 Lipstadt states:


The group spent three days in Auschwitz-Birkenau and one in Majdanek
surreptitiously and illegally collecting bricks and cement fragments-
Leuchter called them "forensic samples" -from a number of buildings,
including those associated with the killing process. On returning to
Massachusetts, Leuchter had the samples chemically analyzed. (He told the
laboratory that the samples had to do with a worker's compensation case.)
He summarized his findings in The Leuchter Report: An Engineering Report
on the Alleged Execution Chambers at
Auschwitz, Birkenau, and Majdanek Poland, which was published by Zündel's
Samisdat Publications and David Irving's publishing house, Focal Point
Publications in London. 27 

Lipstadt adds a footnote that states in part: 

The London edition was entitled Auschwitz:The End of the Line: The Leuchter
Report - The First Forensic Examination of Auschwitz 28. 

The title itself is, of course, an untruth; the first forensic
examinations were done in 1945 as mentioned above. For the purposes of
this article I will refer to Leuchter's report as the Leuchter Report. As
the Leuchter Report is one of the founding documents for the
pseudoscientific claims of Holocaust deniers, it is worth checking on
whether Leuchter represented his expertise as an engineer
 correctly. In fact, in 1991, Leuchter, whose only degree is a BA in
History, admitted falsely representing himself: 

Leuchter, 48, of suburban Malden, was to face trial later this month on
charges of practicing engineering without a license, a violation of
Massachusetts law. But on June 11, he signed a consent agreement with the
board that licenses engineers. 

In it, Leuchter acknowledged that, "I am not and have never been
registered as a professional engineer" and that he nevertheless had
represented himself as an engineer in dealings with various states that
use the death penalty and to which he supplied equipment or advice. 29 

More evidence of Leuchter's lack of expertise is collected in one place at
the Nizkor web site. 30 In a document available on the Zündel website,
Leuchter summarizes his findings on the gas chambers: 


The results published in the Leuchter Report are the important thing.
Categorically, none of the facilities examined at Auschwitz, Birkenau or
Lublin could have supported, or in fact did support, multiple executions
utilizing hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide or any other allegedly or
factually lethal gas. Based upon very generous maximum usage rates for all
the alleged gas chambers, totalling 1,693 persons per week, and assuming
these facilities could support gas executions, it would have required
sixty-eight (68) years to execute the alleged number of six millions of
persons. This must mean the Third Reich was in existence for some
seventy-five (75) years. Promoting these facilities as being capable of
effecting mass, multiple or even singular executions is both ludicrous and
insulting to every individual on this planet. Further, those who do
promote this mistruth are negligent and irresponsible for not
investigating these facilities earlier and ascertaining the truth before
indoctrinating the world with what may have become the greatest propaganda
ploy in history. 31 


The obviously specious reasoning here is typical of Leuchter's style. No
one has claimed that six million people were killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.
The number is closer to one million. His rate of "1,693 persons per week"
is arbitrary. Notice how accurately he states the precision of that
number. As far as Leuchter's estimate of the killing rate goes, one need
only refer to the passage from Pressac quoted above in which almost 1,500
were killed in half an hour. Ironically enough, it is by estimating the
throughput of the gas chambers that the Soviets arrived at the erroneous
figure of 4 million killed. 32 Leuchter's estimate is discussed in more
detail below. 

Leuchter also summarizes the results of his forensic tests: 


Forensic samples were taken from the visited sites. A control sample was
removed from delousing facility 1 at Birkenau. It was postulated that
because of the high iron content of the building materials at these camps
the presence of hydrogen cyanide gas would result in a
ferric-ferro-cyanide compound being formed, as evidenced by the Prussian
Blue staining on the walls in the delousing facilities. 

A detailed analysis of the thirty-two samples taken at the
Auschwitz-Birkenau complexes showed 1,050 mg/kg of cyanide and 6,170 mg/kg
of iron. Higher iron results were found at all of the alleged gas chambers
but no significant cyanide traces. This would be impossible if these sites
were exposed to hydrogen cyanide gas, because the alleged gas chambers
supposedly were exposed to much greater quantities of gas than the
delousing facility. Thus, chemical analysis supports the fact that these
facilities were never utilized as gas execution facilities. 33 


Leuchter's primary mistake is his initial assumption that exposure to HCN
must result in the formation of Prussian blue. 34 Another error is his
claim that the delousing facilities were exposed to less HCN than the
homicidal chambers. It turns out that it is more difficult to kill lice
than it is to kill humans. Leuchter's sensitivity is not good and it is
doubtful that his samples were chosen carefully in regard to being
sheltered from the elements. Concentration of cyanide in the gas chambers
(at least cyanide not complexed to iron) is at levels less than 1 mg/kg.
35 Additionally, Leuchter should have taken as his control an ordinary
building at Auschwitz-Birkenau, such as a barracks. Do the homicidal gas
chambers contain more cyanide compounds than an ordinary barracks? The
answer is yes as discussed below. A later investigator, Germar Rudolf 36
has made many of these same mistakes albeit more carefully; these issues
are discussed in more depth in section V. A point for point refutation of
the arguments in the Leuchter Report can be found on the Nizkor website.
37 

Another report that deserves mention is the Lüftl Report even though it is
not strictly speaking a forensic report. The author of the report, a real
engineer, Walter Lüftl, makes arguments concerning the supposed physical
impossibility of using Zyklon B to murder. He conducts a largely
irrelevant simulation concerning the ability of humans to heat a gas
chamber and attempts to deceive the reader with the claim that the figure
of six million Jews murdered should be lowered to 3.5 million with the
recognition that 4 million were not murdered at Auschwitz-Birkenau. I have
already discussed the basis of this fallacy above but further information
may be found in an article on the Nizkor site. 38 

An English version of the Lüftl Report was published by a journal
specializing in Holocaust denial, The Journal of Historical Review without
the permission of the author, ostensibly to protect him from prosecution
in Austria. 39 Sarah Rembiszewski writes that Lüftl was president of the
Austrian Engineers' and Architects' Association, which [sic?] conducted a
"study," disseminated today through the Internet, "proving" that the
Holocaust could not have happened. Lüftl conducted his study at the
request of a German lawyer and published his conclusions in the Viennese
paper Die Presse under the title "Holocaust - Belief and Facts." He was
forced to resign from his position in the Engineers' and Architects
Association; Süddeutsche Zeitung, March 15, 1992. 40 

I will now turn to discussing the background of a report of someone I
consider to be one of the more clever and therefore more dangerous of the
Holocaust deniers, Germar Rudolf. Rudolf was a graduate student in
chemistry working at the prestigious Max Planck Institute (MPI). Owing to
the fact that he actually has some understanding of chemistry many of his
deceptions are more sophisticated than other Holocaust deniers.
Nonchemists should be somewhat careful in addressing his arguments.
Ultimately, he engages in the same deceptions and specious arguments as
Leuchter and Lüftl, but the case he makes for those deceptions and
arguments involves more difficult chemistry. Below, I will address in more
detail why the chemical arguments of the deniers regarding the use of
Zyklon B in Auschwitz-Birkenau are not valid, but first I will discuss
some of the history of the Rudolf Report as I have done for the Leuchter
and Lüftl Reports. 

The story of the Rudolf Report begins with Otto Remer. Remer was a general
during the Nazi regime and put down the attempted coup against Hitler in
1944. 41 Remer was a Holocaust denier and was on trial in Germany for
inciting race hatred. 42 Remer's lawyer Hajo Hermann commissioned Rudolf
to write the Rudolf Report. 43 Just as Leuchter had done before him,
Rudolf collected samples from gas chambers as well as delousing
facilities: 


He traveled to Auschwitz in summer 1991, and took samples from the walls
of one of the gas chambers and one of the delousing chambers. Using Max
Planck stationary, he sent the samples to an analytical laboratory in
Taunusstein, the Fresenius Institute. 44 


Rudolf had an understanding with Remer that his report was only to be used
in the court case. The report was never used in that case, but Remer began
distributing the report claiming "it had the support of the Max Planck
Society." 45 Subsequently, Rudolf found his own publisher. In June 1993,
Rudolf was forced to leave MPI for improperly using its name. 46 In a
March 1994 legal settlement Rudolf's dismissal was reworded as an "ending
of the contract through mutual agreement." 47 A statement from MPI on the
affair is available on the Nizkor web site. 48 Rudolf's legal troubles
were far from over. Gerald Fleming writes in the foreword to Sarah
Rembiszewski's work: 

On June 23, 1995, following a seven months' trial, the Superior-Lomt
(Landgericht) in Stuttgart sentenced Germar Scheerer to fourteen months
imprisonment for spreading premeditated, offensive, mendacious and racist
propaganda. The accused is now reportedly a fugitive from justice. 49 

Rembiszewski explains that Rudolf changed his name to Scheerer after he
got married in 1994. 50 If this name change were the only one that Rudolf
used, it would be understandable. Sheerer is not the only alternate name
Rudolf uses. In many of his reports he cites the papers of "Dr. Ernst
Gauss" as an expert on chemistry. It came to light during Rudolf's 1994
trial that "Dr. Gauss" was a graduate student whose Ph.D. thesis was never
accepted. That graduate student is named Germar Rudolf. 51 

I do not believe that Rudolf's offense would be criminal in the United
States of America where citizens enjoy the protection of the First
Amendment (a protection that would be lost were people like Rudolf and his
hero Remer ever to come to power here). Not only do I disagree with such
criminal prosecution on principle, but I think that it is
counterproductive in that it gives people like Rudolf the ability to claim
persecution. My task here, however, is to discuss the history of claims
concerning the chemistry of Auschwitz-Birkenau and evaluate their
validity. The fact that I think that people ought to be permitted to
spread untruths does not make untruths into truths. 

Next I will turn to what I will refer to as the IFRC Report, a paper by
Jan Markiewicz, Wojciech Gubala, and Jerzy Labadz of the Institute of
Forensic Research, Cracow (IFRC ). 52 In 1989, these researchers entered
into discussions with the management of the Auschwitz-Birkenau museum
about the possibility of detecting evidence of exposure to cyanides in the
gas chambers; they were skeptical about the possibilities of such
detection, but made the attempt anyway in 1990 in a preliminary study of
10 samples and 2 control samples. They were able to confirm the presence
of cyanide in Krema II but nowhere else in this preliminary investigation.
The results from their control samples were negative indicating that their
results were meaningful. 53 

After learning of the Leuchter Report, these authors decided to make a
more extensive study. 

Samples, about 1-2 g in weight, were taken by chipping pieces from bricks
and concrete or scraping off [sic], particularly in the case of plaster
and also mortar. The materials taken were secured in plastic containers
marked with serial numbers. All these activities were recorded and
documented with photographs. Work connected with them took the commission
two days. The laboratory analysis of material collected was conducted - to
ensure full objectivity - by another group of Institute workers. 54 

The samples underwent qualitative analysis by means of a
spectrophotometer. Cyanides were found in many of the samples, but this
method was not suitable for quantitative analysis. 55 

A significant concern in choosing a method for quantitative analysis is
the presence of blue-staining in the delousing chambers, that is not
obviously present in the homicidal gas chambers. I have written a brief
article available on the world-wide web that discusses the chemistry of
this staining and its relevance to forensic analysis. 56 The important
points of this chemistry are discussed in section V. of the current
article. For reasons discussed below, the IFRC workers chose a method of
detecting cyanides that discriminates against the compounds that form this
staining, the iron blues. Additionally, they used a calibrated method: 


The calibration curve was constructed previously and standards were
introduced into each series of determinations to check the curve and the
course of the determination. 57 


The IFRC researchers found significant levels of cyanide in bunker 11, all
five Kremas, as well as a facility used to fumigate prisoners' clothing.
In contrast, no cyanides were found in dwelling facilities that were
"probably fumigated with Zyklon B only once (in connection with typhoid
epidemic in 1942)." They summarize their findings as follows: 


The results of analyses are presented in Tables I-IV. They unequivocally
show that the cyanide compounds occur in all the facilities that,
according to the source data, were in contact with them. On the other
hand, they do not occur in dwelling accommodations, which was shown by
means of control samples. 58 

 



>  as well as tell-tale details
> > such as oversized ventilation systems and the presence in inventory
> > lists of items for premises alleged to have been gas chambers concealed
> > as shower rooms such as false shower heads.
> 
>       Why manufacture false shower heads? Why not just put real ones on the
> wall with no pipes running to them? Are you sure you are being honest?

See for yourself.

Source: http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/invntry.html


An inventory for the underground floor of Krema III in Auschwitz,
specifying the presence of 14 shower heads (Brausen) and one gas-tight
door (Gasdichtetür) in the gas chamber (Leichenkeller 1). This room,
sometimes referred to as a "gassing cellar" in the SS-correspondence, had
fake shower heads installed to mislead the victims into believing they
were going to be washed. Leichenkeller 2 (referred to many times as an
"undressing room" in SS-correspondence), doesn't have a gas tight door
neither shower heads. 

Auschwitz : Technique and operation of the gas chambers, J.C. Pressac, the
Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, NY, 1989, p.438. 





> Leftists have already admitted that the "gas chamber" at Auschwitz is not
> real:
> 
> Brian Harmon  wrote in article
> <080620000051136373%harmon@msg.ucsf.edu>...
> 
> "You're confusing Krema I with Kremas II-V.  Krema I is a
> reconstruction,  this has never been a secret.  Kremas II-V
> are in their demolished state as they were left."
> 
> Charles Don Hall  wrote in article
> <8F4CB71B7NukuNuku@news.erols.com>...
> 
> "Certainly not! The word "fake" implies a deliberate attempt to deceive.
> 
> "The staff of the Auschwitz museum will readily explain that the Nazis
> tried to destroy the gas chambers in a futile attempt to conceal their
> crimes. And they'll tell you that reconstruction was done later on. So it
> would be dishonest for me to call it a "fake". I'll cheerfully admit that
> it's a "reconstruction" if that makes you happy."


The gas chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager, Krema I, was very real.

Soource: http://www.wsg-hist.uni-linz.ac.at/Auschwitz/HTML/Gaskammern.html
                              

Auschwitz I - main camp
                                                                    
extermination plants                                in action
====================                                =========
Crematorium I gas chamber,                 early 1942 till spring 1943
three ovens for 340 bodies                                            



The gas chamber at Auschwitz I main camp (= Auschwitz-Stammlager) has a
complex architectural history which you must understand before claiming
that it was "not real". The building housing originally funbctioned as a
morgue for the Polish army. When the Germans took over what was originally
a military base and converted it to a concentration camp,  the building
was extensively modified to be able to handle mass gassings using
Zyklon-B. It was used for this purpose from early 1942 until the removal
of all gassing operations to the more secluded Auschwitz-Birkenau in early
1942. The building was abandoned until early 1944 when it was extensively
renovated to serve as an air-raid shelter. Since the Germans demolished
all of the gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau onj Himmler's orders in
Novvember, 1944, the air raid shepter at Auschwitz-Stammlager was the only
building other than block 11 where an experimantal gassing had been
conducted on Soviet POWs in Septmber 1941 intact after the war which had
served as a mass execution chamber. Thus, in the process of converting the
concentration camp to a memorial museum the decision was made to undo the
modifications which had converted the facility to an air-raid shelter and
re-install, to the extent feasible, the various structures it had had when
functioning as a mass-execution gas chamber. This is a perfectly
legitimate course of action, and it is known as partial museumification.
Any visitor can see that the structure in its present state
(http://cache.corbis.com/Agent/11/10/76/11107622.jpg) could not serve as a
gas chamber. Those tourists who visit the Auschwitz museum are told by the
guides and can read in the tourist literature available there that the gas
chamber at Auschwitz-Stammlager is a partial reconstruction, a
museumification. This is made clear in the letter below from Dr.
Francyszek Piper of the Auschwitz State Museum.


Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/p/ftp.py?people/p//piper.franciszek/press/daily.texan.1093


Archive/File: people/p/piper.franciszek/press/daily.texan.1093
Last-Modified: 1994/11/12


                                                     ogwiqcim, October21,1993
                Dr Franciszek Piper
                Pa'nstwowe Muzeum
                32-603 Ogwiecim -Poland

                Texas School Publications
                University of Texas
                P.O.Box D
                Austin,Texas 78713-8904
                       U S A
Dear Sirs,

In connection with an advertisement of David Cole (An open
letter to the daily Texan, February 19, 1993) in which he offers
the videotape named "David Cole -Interviews Dr Franciszek
Piper" I would like to inform your readers: 

1. the sham interview with me there is the Neonazi 
style monologue of young man who never seriously approached the great
tragedy of humanity named Auschwitz and Holocaust.  In his
ingenuousness he decided to halt the part of the murderers
instead of their innocent victims - different every
honest man does. My answers on a few questions of Cole ( who
deceitfully introduced himself as a man who wanted to convince his
acquaintances in America that Auschwitz was really a place of
genocide) constitute a small proportion of this video tape.  

2.  In his advertisement he introduces me as a "Head of
Auschwitz Archives at the Auschwitz State Museum".  This is
untruth.  I am not and I have been neither a head of Auschwitz Archives
nor a director of Auschwitz Musum, as Cole maintains in
other propaganda leaflets.  The purpose of such manipulation
with of facts is clear - to attract potential purchasers of his
"Interview" video tape. 

3.  Cole maintains that I first time admitted the allegedly
unknown fact the Nazis adapted the crematorium in question in
which the gas chamber were located for air-raid shelter, the fact
allegedly unknown even for Museum guides.  It is un truth.  See
enclosed copies of pages from the books which constitute the
fundamental reading for Auschwitz guides. In book by T-an Sehn
"Concentrat Camp Ogwiqcim-Brzezinka (Auschwitz-Birkenau)Warsaw 1957,
You may read on the page 152-"In May 1944 the old Crematorium
I in the base camp was adapted for use as an air raid shelter

The Fact is also confirmed in the book by Jean Claude Pressac
"Auschwitz: Technique and operation of the gas chambers,
published by The Beate Klarsfeld Foundation, New York 1989(515
Madison Avenue. On the page 157 you may read: "With part of the
building converted to an air raid shelter, this is the state in which
the  SS abandoned Krematorium I in January 1945"  Repeating what
Pressac had written I told what was the nature of the
adaptation works carried out by the Nazis and what one had to do to
remove those changes in order to regain the previous appearance.
They aare all "Pipers revelations. In spite of the fact that
such secondary restoration works had to be done there is an
undisputable reality that the gas chamber in question is housed in the same
builldin which has been existed from prewar times till now. 

4. The fact that the Nazi murderers used gas chambers (in
Birkenau you can see the ruins of the other 5 gas chambers) for
mass annihilation of innocent men, women and children, mostly
Jews, has been proved by thousands of memoires and depositions of
eyewitnesses as well as by German official documents and plans. 
It is obvious fact for everybody who wants to approach the
problem, to contact still living witnesses and to study historical
sources. 

5. I have devoted 28 years of my life to save the memory of
the counless victims of the Nazi barbarity to warn people against
indifference to all forms of racial, religious and national
based hatered, which leads to injustice, suffering and killing
of innocent people.  Because of it I take the fact my name is
used for disseminating such kind of lies and hiding of the obvious
truth as a lack of honesty and dignity. 
                                                                                              

yours,sincerely  
                                                              

                                                                                              

Dr Franciszek Piper

PS Send me please the copy ofyour magazine in which my letter will be  
published 

[transcription note: Dr. Piper's first language is Polish, not
English, and the letter reads awkwardly. knm]



For more on Krema I at Auschwitz-Stammlager, see
http://www.nizkor.com/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-04.html.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:56 EDT 2001
Article: 897141 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassed victims
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 17:32:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AFE76AB.E1F68694@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> >
> > They knew that many of the "survivors" would die during the death
> > march, as indeed happened. Dragging the survivors along with them and
> > treating them in a manner that would ensure that a large number of them
> > died was a better idea than shooting them all or abandoning them at the
> > camps to break out and exact revenge on the Germans living in the area.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Why was dragging them along a better idea than killing them on the spot.
> 
> ======================================

As you know from my analysis of the Riga massacre, shooting tens of
thousands of people takes time, organization, and nerves, all of which
were in short supply during the last days of Auschwitz. Some mass
shootings did take place during the final days, but when the Germans
realized that they had to evacuate without delay, there were still 72,000
prisoners, 66,000 of which were capable of marching. The remaining 6,000,
too weak or sick to leave, were abandoned.

Höß and others tell that may of the prisoners were shot by the roadside.
Although it was January, many of them were marching barefooted and only in
their prison clothing. They were not being fed, and they sleeping in the
snow or sometimes in unheated barns. Such a regime ensured that many of
them caught pneumonia or died of starvation or exhaustion.

Killing some 70,000 odd people on the spot would have caused
organizational and logistical difficulties and taken far too much time.
Additionally, the prisoners, who had already rioted to the point of
totally destroying one of the gas chambers, far outnumbered the camp
staff, and neither party had anything to lose, so an organized massacre
would probably have been suicide for all concerned.

In the chaos of a Germany where the state had collapsed, society was no
longer functioning, the Soviets were approaching, and millions of refugees
were fleeing westward, the Germans had few options open other than trying
to evacuate the inhabitants of camps close to the front line to camps
further westward, in the hope that as many inmates as possible would die
underway in controlled circumstances. Can you imagine what would have
happened if tens of thousands of angry and half-starved inmates had had
the chance to satisfy their physical cravings and exact revenge on the
civilian population?


> > > =================================
> >
> > Don't be silly.
> 
> =============================
> Phillips
> 
> Silly?
> 
> ==================================

Yes silly. You act as though gassing was a big secret. It wasn't. It was
so well known that the King of Sweden, to whom the Budapest-based Swedish
diplomats Per Anger and Raoul Wallenberg had been reporting, made a
personal plea to the Hungarian government to stop delivering Jews to
Auschwitz for extermination, a plea that resulted in a trainload of Jews
headed for Auschwitz-Birkenau dramatically being turned back, and in the
further refusal of the Hungarian government to allow its Jews to be
exterminated.


> =============================
> Phillips 
> > Many of the concentration camp guards eventually talked
> > about the exterminations themselves.
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Concentration camps were not death camps.
> 
> ===============================

Auschwitz and Majdanek were bifunctional. And the term "concentration
camp" is usually used generically to refer to purely concentration camps,
such as Bergen-Belsen, dual-functional camps such as the Auschwitz and
Majdanek complexes, concentration camps with occasionally used or small
gas chambers, such as Mauthausen, Natzweiler, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof,
Neuengamme, and Ravensbrück, as well as to dedicated extermination centers
such as Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor, and Treblinka. Even the latter four had
small numbers of inmates: Sonderkommandos selected from the new arrivals
to work in body-disposal details.


> > By the spring of 1945 what had
> > been going on at Auschwitz and other concentration camps was no longer
> > a secret.
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is one thing for the gassings to be "no longer a secret." It is quite
another to
> make a plausible case for it.  For that witnesses were necessary. Every
witness
> serves to tighten the noose.
> 
> ==================================

There was a breakdown of society. Even if Eichmann's frantic campaign to
gas as many Hungarian Jews as possible had brought the fact of gassing to
the attention of the world during the summer of 1944, the Germans had no
way of knowing what was going to happen or how many witnesses were going
to be around when they were evacuating camps before the Soviets could get
to them. In any case, gassing took place at so many camps, involved so
many people, and was such public knowledge that minimizing the number of
witnesses was not as immediate a concern as keeping concentration camp
inmates from marauding across the countryside and avenging German
civilians and refugees for what had been done to them.


> > Death-marching those who were strong enough to walk was quite
> > logical.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Bringing those survivors within reach of Allied interrogators was, for
the Germans,
> slitting their own throats and slitting one's own throat is not "logical."
> 
> ==========================

By January 1945 the Germans' throats were already slit. Of much more
immediate concern were the facts, known to both prisoners and
prison-masters, that people
strong enough to walk are strong enough to kill, and that the social
contract and legal mechanisms which normally prevent murderous and
cannibalistic behavior were not functioning.

Who ever said that a country that got itself entangled in an all-fronts
war, and, despite this, saw fit to spend a substantial part of its limited
resources shipping people hundreds of kilometers to specially built
facilities just to kill them ever acted logically? 

 
> > It protected the civilian population against marauding groups
> > of hungry and vengeful former concentration camp inmates. There were
> > several million people in concentration camps in 1945, and most of them, in
> > addition to being hungry enough to resort to cannibalism, understandably
> > harbored a major grudge against things or people German. The war was
lost and
> > the cat was out of the bag with respect to information about exterminations.
> > The short-term objective was to protect the German population from savagery.
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Given those circumstances, the Germans' purpose would have been far
better served by
> killing them on the spot.
> You are desperately trying to reconcile two things that cannot possibly BE
> reconciled: the mass exterminations and   permitting witnessees TO those
> exterminations to come within the reach of Allied interrogators.
> 
> =========================================

Not at all. Shooting 70,000 people on the spot would have taken days,
possibly weeks. You should try it some time. The gas chambers had been
demolished, so that option was not available, either. A mass-shooting on
this scale would have surely precipitated a riot which would have left the
Germans, totally outnumbered by their prisoners, dead. 

Marching them in ordered columns through the countryside in conditions
that would result in many of them dying or being shot was the best way to
kill as many inmates as possible, weed out the weakest among them, protect
prison guards against air attacks from low-flying allied airplanes, and
maintain discipline, control, and order, Ordnung muß sein! Considering the
available options, death marches were the best means to keep the prisoners
prisoners and the prison guards alive in the open countryside in
conditions of societal collapse.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:56 EDT 2001
Article: 897165 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips to Holman - a wrap up of the Leuchter business
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:33:14 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AFE7D80.C056EC68@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> "Jeffrey G. Brown" had written:

> ========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Stating an untruth is not necessarily a lie.  Would it be a lie if I
were to assure my
> girlfriend that she did not have a breath problem when, in truth, she
did. I know it is
> useless to attempt to reason with a screaming faggot but I make the
attempt, anyway.
> 
> ==============================================

Sorry, Richard, the definition of lying is the statement of an
untruth/untruths. You are trying to obfuscate be distinguishing between
"white lies" and "whoppers", but they are both lies.


> > > ===================================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > WHY would we expect such numbers?
> >
> > Because it takes far lower HCN concentrations to kill humans than it does
> > insects, idiot. Leuchter didn't know that -- but his numbers, if you
accept them
> > as accurate, show that the gas chambers were exposed to less HCN over
time than
> > the fumigation chambers.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> That would argue that we should expect lower numbers fo the execution
chamber.  It does
> NOT argue that the numbers should have been as low as they were.
> 
> ==========================================

Yes it does. 

1. The fumigation chambers were used on a continuous basis, the gas
chambers were used much more infrequently until the spring of 1944, when
the extermination of Hungarian Jews ws begun.

2. It takes 300 ppm sustained at 15 minutes to kill people, while it takes
16,000 ppm sustained for 20 hours to kill lice. 

3. Leuchter did not test for all cyanide compounds, but rather
concentrated on one, Prussian blue. The conditions in the gas chambers -
CO2 in the exhaled breath of the victims and the fact that they had to be
hosed down and sometimes even whitewashed after every execution - were
adverse to the formation of Prussian blue. The fact that Prussian blue is
also water soluble to some degree, and that the gas chamber ruins have
been exposed to the elements since 1944, while the extermination chambers
have not, also plays a role. 

4. The Cracow team conducted experiments which ignored Prussian blue and
tested only for cyanide ions. In all of the structures that had once been
gas chambers they found evidence of cyanide ions significantly above what
they found for places that had not been exposed to cyanide.

5. Even Leuchter had to admit that the gas chambers showed evidence of
cyanide compounds. He explained this as the probable result of a single
gassing during a typhus epidemic. He did not test his explanation by
studying the amount of Prussian blue was detectable in such a place, nor
did he know that the structure in question, Krema II, was not built until
a year after the typhus epidemic, for which reason the cyanide traces
which he detected could not be the result of such a fumigation.

> > > =============================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > The control used was the fumigation chamber.
> >
> > False. The fumigation chamber samples could not serve as controls.
They were the
> > samples that Leuchter wanted analyzed for comparison to the execution
chamber
> > samples, and so could not simultaneously be the controls. Leuchter was as
> > ignorant of scientific protocol as you are, idiot.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> You're contradicting yourself. YOu tell us that the fumigation chamber
samples could not
> be used as controls because Leuchter used them for comparison with the
fumigation
> chamber samples. But that is precisely what a control IS. Something that
is used for
> comparison.
> 
> Let us, for example, take a study of white vs Negro IQs. What is the
"control" used?
> 
> ==================================================

The fumigation chamber samples are not proper controls because Leuchter
was trying to test for the presence vs, the absence of cyanide compounds,
even though he didn't understand this. A proper experiment would have used
as a control a place that had either not been subjected to cyanide at all,
or a place known to have been subjected to cyanide once, during the 1942
typhus epidemic. The Cracow team tested samples from both kinds of
environments and showed that neither had detectable traces. The samples
>from both the gas chambers and the fumigation chambers, on the other hand,
both showed significant traces of cyanide compounds. 

Leuchter tried to explain away the cyanide compounds found in the gas
chambers as resulting from a single fumigation during the typhus epidemic.
Having studied neither the history of the structure, which was built
several months after the typhus epidemic, and not having analyzed samples
>from a place exposed only once to cyanide during the 1943 epidemic, his
explanation for the presence of cyanide compounds in the gas chamber is
based on speculation and ignorance of the architectural and historical
facts.

> >
> > > > > > 3. Leuchter did not take into account the fact that the gas chamber
> > > > > > ruins had been exposed to the elements since 1944, while the
fumigation
> > > > > > chambers had not been.
> > > > >
> > > > > ============================================
> > > > > Phillips
> > > > >
> > > > > The IHR people claim this would not have affected the results.
> > > >
> > > > The IHR people are ignorant liars, just like you, idiot. They know no
> > > > more about the chemistry of HCN than you do.

Jeffery is correct here. The IFRC included in their report the results of
experiments which show that cyanide compounds are water soluble to some
degree, depending on several factors. The fact that the gas chamber ruins
have been exposed to the elements, including being annually submerged in
water for several weeks at a stretch, is a significant factor when
conducting a quantitative analysis for cyanide ions.

But don't take my word for it:

"Chemistry is not the Science: Rudolf, Rhetoric, and Reduction"
by Richard J. Green and Jamie McCarthy

Source: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/not-the-science/

"Forensic chemistry is, I repeat, an exact science." 

                               Holocaust-denier David Irving,
                               introduction to the Leuchter Report, 1988

"[C]hemistry is not the science which can prove or refute any allegations
about the Holocaust 'rigorously'." 

                               Holocaust-denier and chemist Germar Rudolf,
                               response to Rich Green, 1998


Introduction

Rigorous Proof and Exact Science
The so-called forensic reports of Leuchter, [1] Lüftl [2] and Rudolf [3]
have for some time been used by Holocaust deniers as their chief argument
- their ace in the hole - against the veracity of mass murder by gassing
at Auschwitz-Birkenau. 

The argument goes that what is physically impossible cannot be true, no
matter what testimonial evidence, documentary evidence, or physical
evidence is amassed to demonstrate it. No number of witnesses suffices to
prove that water can run uphill, and likewise all evidence regarding the
Holocaust could be wiped away, if deniers could only prove that gassings
were physically impossible. 
Thus it is, in the literature of denial, that we see great weight given to
these three reports. In the late 1980s Leuchter was cited with great
frequency, and now that distinction is gradually being passed to the work
of Germar Rudolf.  [4] 

Possibly the pivotal moment in this line of argumentation came in 1988
when David Irving was so influenced by the Leuchter Report that he stepped
into the deniers' camp - or at least, when the story is told, Leuchter
gets credit for the conversion. The epiphany took place just before his
testimony at the trial of Ernst Zundel. As described by Robert Lenski in
The Holocaust on Trial, 1990, p. 400: 

      Irving was vacationing in Florida at the time, and Zundel called to
tell him about the Leuchter Report. The two had been in touch
intermittently since 1985, when Irving tentatively agreed to testify for
Zundel in the future. Irving flew at once to Toronto and read the report
overnight. Deeply impressed, he agreed to take the stand. 
Ingrid Rimland of the Zundelsite describes the event in a 1998 Zundelgram: 


      ... I have been told this story often - how swept off his feet
Irving was when he realized the impact and potential power of this
historical Leuchter Report that buried the blah-blah of the Great Gas
Chamber Myth with verifiable laboratory data. 


Irving's own thoughts can be found in the introduction he wrote for his
edition of the Leuchter Report, published in Great Britain: 

      For myself shown this evidence for the first time when called as an
expert witness at the Zündel trial in Toronto in April 1988, the
laboratory reports were shattering.  There could be no doubt as to their
integrity. 
      ... there will always be incorrigible historians, statesmen, and
publicists who are content to believe, or have no economically viable
alternative but to believe, that the Nazis used 'gas chambers' at
Auschwitz to kill human beings. But it is now up to them to explain to me
as an intelligent and critical student of modern history why there is no
significant trace of any cyanide compound in the building which they have
always identified as the former gas chambers. 
      Forensic chemistry is, I repeat, an exact science. 
      The ball is in their court. 


In 1990, he elaborated on his editing decisions: 
      [Leuchter's] tests on the "gas chambers" which are on display at
Auschwitz yielded  no significant trace of cyanide compounds....
Confronted with the forensic evidence, I deleted every reference to
"factories of death" from the revised edition of my Hitler biography. 

Note how heavily Irving relies on this so-called forensic report of
Leuchter. Note also his mystical invocation of the "exact" science of this
report that has the power to trump historical evidence. 

Notwithstanding the fact that chemistry is an approximate science (as is
for all intents and purposes the serious study of history), one of the
present authors has taken up Irving's challenge. In the essays "The
Chemistry of Auschwitz" and "Leuchter, Rudolf, and the Iron Blues", Dr.
Richard J. Green has shown that the Leuchter Report and its cousins are
not sufficient to cast doubt on the well-established facts of the matter. 


Prussian Blue in Five Steps

Perhaps the central issue in understanding the significance of the various
attempts to measure cyanide traces in the remnants of the gas chambers is
the issue of the formation of Prussian blue. Yet many deniers completely
ignore this issue in their defense of the Leuchter Report. For example,
CODOH has just published a document that ignores the mechanism by which
Prussian blue forms, at
http://www.codoh.com/newrevoices/nddd/ndddstern.html. 

Leuchter and Rudolf claim to have detected far more cyanides in the
delousing chambers than in the homicidal gas chambers. This finding,
according to some, should trump all historical evidence and show that the
Final Solution is a made-up tale. The bulk of the cyanides detected by
Leuchter and Rudolf were in the form of Prussian blue and/or related
compounds. That there is a discrepancy between the amount of Prussian blue
between some of the delousing facilities and some of the homicidal
facilities is clear from inspection of the prominent blue staining on some
of the delousing chambers (and the chemical work of Leuchter and Rudolf,
even if honestly conducted, shows no more than is evident from
inspection). The important question is whether such staining is an
accurate marker for exposure to HCN. Must it always be present in
buildings exposed to HCN? 

The essay "Leuchter, Rudolf and the Iron Blues" shows that such compounds
in the gas chambers were exceedingly unlikely to form. Factors such as the
shorter exposure time and the greatly reduced concentration of aqueous
cyanide ions (in part, because of the washing of the chambers with water)
distinguish the gas chambers from the delousing chambers. Here we extend
these results, make them more quantitative and address Rudolf's
criticisms. 

Rudolf agrees with Dr. Green on the most plausible way to answer this
question. Rudolf quotes "The Chemistry of Auschwitz": 

      The Prussian-Blue staining indeed owes its presence to exposure to
HCN, but the conditions under which it formed were not universally present
in all facilities exposed to HCN. The rate of Prussian-Blue formation may
be very different under the conditions used in homicidal chamber [sic]
versus the conditions in delousing chambers. 

Rudolf agrees: 

      And again, I agree with Green that this is the correct approach to
this problem. 

The disagreement is perhaps centered on understanding what the probability
is for Prussian blue formation in the gas chambers. Rudolf wrote his
criticism in August 1998, so he could not have been aware of the revised
version of "Leuchter, Rudolf, and the Iron Blues," in which it is argued
based upon the findings of Alich et al. that such formation by Rudolf's
proposed mechanism is extremely sensitive to conditions, especially pH,
moisture, and concentration of Fe(CN)63-, and that significant amounts of
Prussian blue were unlikely to form under the conditions of the homicidal
gas chambers. 

Rudolf proposes five steps in the development of the blue staining. 

   1.Absorption by the walls of HCN. 

   2.Dissociation of HCN to H3O+ and CN- (HCN is a weak acid). 

   3.Formation of Hexacyanoferrate (Fe(CN)63-. 

   4.Reduction of Fe (III) in the form of Fe(CN)63- to Fe (II) in the form
of Fe(CN)64- by the cyanide ion, i.e., CN-. 

   5.Formation of the so-called soluble Prussian blue. (The terms soluble
and insoluble when applied to Prussian blue describe the ability to form
colloidal suspensions and not the actualsolubility.) [54] 

We examine each step in turn. 

Step one. The first step relies on the ability of water to absorb HCN. 

Appendix 1 of "Leuchter, Rudolf, and the Iron Blues" addresses this issue.
Rudolf asserts that the gas phase concentrations assumed are likely to be
wrong but presents no evidence. Most likely he was not familiar with
Appendix 1 when making that claim. At any rate, we show above that those
concentrations are indeed reasonable. Even assuming a gas phase
concentration as high as 16 g/m3 the maximum amount of HCN that could be
absorbed by water would be less than 0.3 M at 10°C and 0.4 M at 0°C. More
reasonable assumptions lead to a maximum concentration of about 0.1 or 0.2
M, and that is assuming that all of the Zyklon was allowed to evaporate
inside the chamber. Above, we point out that only 20-40% of the HCN would
have evaporated within the chamber. Additionally, these are equilibrium
values! They assume that the HCN in the gas phase had time to equilibrate
with the HCN in the liquid phase. This assumption is in fact unlikely and
the maximum liquid phase concentrations are likely to be much lower
(delousing on the other hand took much longer than a homicidal gassing and
it is thus likely that the liquid phase concentrations would be higher).
After the gassing the chambers were washed down with water drastically
reducing this concentration. (See footnote 15 in "Leuchter, Rudolf and the
Iron Blues"). 

Step one is one of the crucial points in attempting to understand the
differences between the gas chambers and the delousing chambers. The
delousing chambers were exposed to HCN for longer; the Zyklon evaporated
completely, the possibility of reaching equilibrium with HCN in solution
was much higher. Additionally, the gas chambers were washed with water
after a gassing. 

Step two is the dissociation of HCN into H+(aq) and CN-(aq). HCN is a weak
acid, which means that in aqueous solutions it dissociates somewhat but
not completely. In other words the concentration of cyanide ions in
solution is even less than the concentration of HCN. The strength of an
acid is measured by a quantity known as the pKa. The lower the pKa the
stronger the acid. The pKa is defined as -log(Ka) where: 

      Ka=[H+][CN-]/[HCN] (1) 

In equation (1) the square brackets represent the molar concentration (M)
of the given species in aqueous solution. [H+] is related to the pH by the
simple expression [H+] = 10-pH. The pKa of HCN is 9.31. [55] At neutral pH
the cyanide ion concentration is only 1 percent of the HCN concentration.
To calculate this value at other pH's we define the initial concentration
of HCN as [HCN]0, and using the identity [HCN]=[HCN]0-[CN-] rewrite
equation (1) as: 

      [CN-]/[HCN]0 = (Ka/[H+])/(1 + Ka) (2) 

The following figure expresses the percent dissociation of HCN as a
function of pH. 



Rudolf would like to claim a pH of around 10 (a claim that we shall
examine in further detail). Note that if Rudolf were correct that the
concentration of cyanide ions would be about 80% of the initial HCN
concentration. If the pH is 6-7 as measured by Markiewicz et al., it is
about 1% of the initial hydrogen cyanide concentration. Appendix 1 of
"Leuchter, Rudolf, and the Iron Blues" shows that the concentration of
aqueous HCN before washing with water is on the order of 0.1 M: 1% of this
concentration is on the order of 10-3 M. 

Alich et al. found that concentrations of cyanide ions that were less than
about 3.3 x 10-4 M did not form Prussian blue even though an excess of CN-
was still present (dilution with 13% water by volume). [56] Considering
that the gas chambers were washed with water, it is no wonder that very
little if any Prussian blue formed there. Even if Rudolf is correct that
the pH was about 10, that would lead to concentrations of cyanide ions on
the order of 0.1 M. A mere thousandfold dilution by washing with water
would reduce this concentration to the same level. 



 Rudolf's present view is that lime (a.k.a. calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2 [in
its hydrated form]) is not responsible for the alkaline pH he wishes to
claim: 


      Whereas fresh lime mortar is being transferred to pH-neutral Chalk
after only a few days due to the influence of CO2 in the air, cement
mortar and concrete stay alkaline for many years, depending on the
relative amounts of its compounds (water, sand, cement). 


We therefore discount without further ado the possibility that lime from
plaster or whitewash is a reason for an alkaline pH. As for the other
construction materials, we await Rudolf's analysis of their actual
content. His claims about pH rest on pure speculation. The IFRC, on the
other hand measured the pH to be between 6 and 7. 

During the gassing process itself any water in the chamber was likely to
be slightly acidic owing to the influence of carbon dioxide in the air
>from the exhalation of the murderers victims (see Appendix 2 of "Leuchter,
Rudolf and the Iron Blues"). Here is another significant difference from
the delousing chambers. The influence of CO2 inhibits dissociation, but
the whitewashing which took place after the washing with water enhances
it. 

Step three. Without this step, Prussian blue will not form by Rudolf's
mechanism. Alich et al. [57] exposed Fe(III) to CN- and observed no
Prussian blue formation within the timescale of the experiment. This fact
shows that step 3 is not a fast process by any means, and yet it is a
necessary step. Cyanide ions in the presence of Fe3 do not reduce the
iron. Rather, the iron must already be complexed to cyanide in the form of
Fe(CN)63-. 

Rudolf notes correctly that basic environments inhibit this process. An
oversimplified way of considering this reaction is the following reaction:


      Fe(OH)3 + 6CN- <=> 3OH- + Fe(CN)63- 

in which we have omitted the complexing of water molecules for simplicity.
Lechatelier's well-known principle predicts that a higher concentration of
hydroxide ions (OH-) should drive this reaction to the left. The basicity
that Rudolf needs to have even a snowball's chance in hell of producing
Prussian blue by his proposed mechanism (under the conditions in the gas
chambers) inhibits the formation of a necessary precursor! Rudolf claims
that the pH must reach 11 to hinder the process, but offers no support for
this assertion. 

This graphic shows a schematic structure of Fe(CN)63-. (It is not an
optimized structure, and not intended to reproduce bond-lengths and angles
with any precision.) The yellow represents iron (Fe), the gray represents
carbon (C) and the blue nitrogen (N). The point of this structure is to
facilitate the intuition of those not used to thinking of chemistry in
three dimensions as well as those not used to violations of the octet rule
in atoms with energetically accessible d- orbitals. 

Each CN- ligand must react with the iron individually. The formation of
this molecule is a step-by-step process each step of which is inhibited by
basicity. 

Step four. Rudolf is correct to note that there is a photoreduction
mechanism to convert Fe(III) to Fe(II), however, the mechanism is
different than that suggested by Rudolf in his response. Ozeki et al. [58]
studied the photochemical reaction on glass-fiber and cellulose filter
paper and proposed the following mechanism: 

      Fe(CN)63- + hv   =>   [Fe(CN)63-]* 

      Fe(CN)63-*   =>   Fe(CN)53- + CN-* 

      Fe3+ + CN-*   =>   Fe2+ + 1/2 (CN)2 

      Fe2+ + Fe(CN)63-   =>   Prussian blue 

(The *'s indicate molecules in an excited state). 

These researchers have done some elegant work to exclude other possible
mechanisms. L. Moggi et al. [59] have proposed a mechanism in aqueous
solution as follows: 

      Fe(CN)63-+hv   =>   [Fe(CN)5H2O]2- 

      [Fe(CN)5H2O]2- + hv   =>   [Fe(CN)5H2O]3- 

With absorption of subsequent photons the complex loses cyanide ligands
which are replaced by waters until ultimately one is left with Fe2+(aq.).
This ion reacts with Fe(CN)63- to form Prussian blue. They cannot
completely exclude a direct photoreduction mechanism, but certainly do not
argue for one. The other citation Rudolf gives concerns a similar reaction
in methanol and is not truly relevant here although there is certainly
some likeness. [60] 

The bottom line is that Rudolf is correct about the existence of a
photoreduction mechanism, but that mechanism is complex and not direct.
Its sensitivity to cyanide concentration and photoflux is great. If such a
mechanism is active (and it may well be relevant to some of the staining
outsides of buildings), it is even more sensitive to conditions than the
non-photochemical mechanism. The non-photochemical mechanism of reduction
has been discussed in great detail in "Leuchter, Rudolf, and the Iron
Blues," in which it is argued that the probability of this step occurring
under the conditions of the gas chambers is quite small. Rudolf's response
was written before the revised version of that study was presented,
however. 

Step five. This step is not controversial. If the concentrations of
Fe(III) and Fe(CN)64- are adequate, "soluble" Prussian blue forms readily.


Although Rudolf's proposed mechanism for Prussian blue formation is not an
implausible explanation for the staining on the delousing chambers, he has
not truly demonstrated this fact. When asked to do so Rudolf and
colleagues keep presenting the case of a Bavarian church, in which
Prussian blue staining occurred, ad infinitum, but what is this case
supposed to prove? The claims about the church were published by "Ernst
Gauss" and are available at http://www.codoh.com/inter/intgrgauss.html.
Again, Gauss is a pseudonym of Rudolf himself. [61] 

The key element is pointed out by "Gauss" himself: 


      The specialists of the appropriate companies called for help could
not understand this effect, and nothing similar was described in the
literature. 


      Die zu Hilfe gerufenen Spezialisten der einschlägigen Firmen konnten
sich       diesen Effekt nicht erklären, ähnliches war auch in der
Literatur nicht       beschrieben. 

The staining in the church is an event that occurred, but it does not
represent a phenomenon that always occurs. As "Gauss" notes, the
specialists were surprised. The fact that blue staining occurred in this
church is not sufficient to demonstrate that the same mechanism is
responsible for the blue staining in the delousing chambers. Nevertheless,
this church demonstrates some interesting chemistry that may be the topic
of a future article on this site. 

Despite the fact that he has not demonstrated the case, we agree that
formation of Prussian blue by a mechanism similar to that which Rudolf
proposes in his three steps is not an unlikely explanation for the
presence of blue staining on the delousing chambers. It is, perhaps, not
so important whether the mechanism is exactly as Rudolf states or takes
place by a similar mechanism. 

Supposing that Rudolf is correct or nearly correct regarding the formation
of blue staining in the delousing chambers, it is exceedingly unlikely
that the same process would have taken place to any great extent in the
gas chambers used for mass murder. 

We agree with Rudolf that "insoluble" Prussian blue is less susceptible to
weathering than other cyanides. "The Chemistry of Auschwitz" pointed out
that it is Rudolf's burden to show that such is the case for the compounds
formed on the delousing chambers, but we are not making the contrary
argument. The weathering is important, if one considers its implications
for buildings that were exposed to HCN but did not form Prussian blue
stains (as Gauss's fumigation experts attest is the normal state of
affairs). A building in which Prussian blue formed would have much higher
levels of detectable total cyanides than a building in which Prussian blue
did not form. We must therefore conclude that Prussian blue is not a good
marker for exposure to hydrogen cyanide. Because of the fact that Prussian
blue is much less susceptible to weather, a building that has Prussian
blue stains will have a total cyanide content much greater than one in
which Prussian blue did not form. Because of these facts, we must conclude
that judging exposure to cyanide by means of the total cyanide content is
inappropriate. A fair marker for exposure to hydrogen cyanide is to
measure the remnant cyanide content when iron compounds are excluded. Such
an experiment was actually performed by the Institute for Forensic
Research in Cracow. 
         



> >
> > Germar Rudolph was wrong, as the Krakow team's experimental results
have shown.
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> HOw have they shown he was wrong.
> 
> =======================

By conducting the requisite experiments:

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/post-leuchter.report


The  following experiment illustrated to what  extent  water
elutes   cyanide   ions.  Two  0.5-gram   plaster   samples,
previously  subjected to a fumigation with hydrogen  cyanide
(after  the determination of cyanide combinations  in  them)
were  placed on filter paper in glass funnels and either  of
them  was  flushed  with 1 l of clean,  deionized  distilled
water. The results of the test are presented in Table VII.

TABLE VII. RESULTS OF EXAMINATION CONCERNING THE EFFECT OF
WATER UPON THE CONCENTRATION OF CYANIDE IONS IN PLASTER

----------------------------------------------------------------
Sample  Initial concentration Concentration after 
                              flushing with water
        (CN~ in ug/kg)        (CN~ in ug/kg)    Loss, in %
----------------------------------------------------------------
 I      160                   28                82.5
II      1200                  112               90.7 
----------------------------------------------------------------

Consequently, water elutes cyanide compounds in considerable
measure.  The fact that they have survived so  long  in  the
chamber  ruins is probably due to the possible formation  of
cyanide combinations in the walls of those chambers  at  the
time  of  their utilization from about mid-1943 to the  last
weeks of 1944 (except for Crematorium IV, which was blown up
earlier).  The  significance of rainfall in the  process  of
elution  of  these  combinations out of the  ruin  walls  is
exemplified by Crematorium II in the Birkenau camp, where we
have  found  the  highest (mean) eoncentrations  of  cyanide
compounds, because many fragments of the gas chamber were to
a great degree protected from precipitation.



Summa summarum. There is nothing in the Leuchter Report inconsistent with
the structures studied having been used in the manner alleged and
supported by other types of evidence. On the other hand, it contains many
things indicating that it was done sloppily, with deep ignorance of such
fundamentals as the chemistry of cyanide compound formation, retention, or
stability, the toxicity of cyanide for lice as opposed to humans, and the
architectural history of the camp.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:57 EDT 2001
Article: 897175 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.flame.niggers
Subject: Re: Racism: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 19:01:32 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 36
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In article <3AFE77E6.886C71AF@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> 
> =================================================
> Phillips
> 
> I've been over this several times, but I'll try again.
> 
> I fully expect that a nationalist/racialist regime would impose many
restrictions
> on Jews, in effect, reducing them to a sort of second-cass citizenship.
I can live
> with that. Indeed, I would much RATHER live with that than live under a
> multiracial, multicultural smorgasbord.
> 
> ============================================================
> 

You are retired and probably have few unfulfilled ambitions. If you were
20 years old and not allowed to realize your full potential because of the
accident of your birth and nothing else I'm certain you would not be so
nonchalant about the prospect of an arbitrarily defined second-class
citizenship.

The Holocaust began with boycotts of Jewish businesses, it escalated into
bookburnings of works by Jewish authors, the Jews had their citizenship
taken away, were harrassed by restrictions such as not being allowed to
use telephones, public transportation, or parks, after which their homes
and businesses were trashed and many were arrested or even killed
arbitrarily. That's what happens to second-class citizens: their lives
soon become intolerable, and they have no legal means of influencing their
fate.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:58 EDT 2001
Article: 897176 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:51:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 38
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In article <3AFE927F.A1F70725@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

>

> ==================================================
> PHillips
> 
> "Who is the Jew who does the most moaning and wailing on
> this newsgroup?"
> 
> Well, it can't be Jeffrey Brown becasue Jeffrey does not moan and wail:
he howls and
> shreiks.
> 
> I would say Number #1 would be Johann Sebastian.
> 
> Number #2 would be Eugene Holman who is not Jewish; however, being
black, he has a
> minority member's outlook on affairs.
> 
> ===================================================

I am neither a moaner nor a wailer. I simply dig up facts and try to place
them in context. Being a member of a minority group might cause a person
to look at things from a certain perspective, but this has little or
nothing to do with issues such as discussion of the Leuchter Report or
whether it makes more sense to shoot or deathmarch concentration camp
inmates during the final days of a war.

It seems to me that you, Richard, are the one who complains most,
particularly about any revelation that puts the Nazis in a bad light or
demonstrates that they were killing Jews and others according to a
systematic plan being directed and budgeted from the RHSA and the Führer's
Chancellory in Berlin.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:59 EDT 2001
Article: 897190 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mindless barn stories
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 19:43:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3b010060.220103832@news.pacificnet.net>, trm@pacificnet.net
(tom moran) wrote:

> The incredible dim wit "Dr." Mathis, "Ph.D" had demanded sources
> elsewhere in this thread and now here he is saying the sources are
> just -
> 
> >You realize you're citing a personal website that has no outside
sources on it?
> >
> >This is why research is left to people with upper-level degrees...
> 
> He also had said over on the Yahoo board that Gilbert is to be trusted
> because he is a historian of degree yet in the end run we have the
> website sources and the Gilbert account in total disagreement and thus
> we would have iy that "Dr." Mathis, "Ph.D" is telling us that all the
> victims at Gardelegen were Jewish and the total was 5 to 6 thousand. 
> 
> Is that about right, "Dr." Mathis, "Ph.D"?


Check out the official Gardelegen website at
http://www.topographie.de/gedenkstaettenforum/uebersicht/d_41.htm

It states the number of victims to be 1016 concentration camp prisoners
who were deathmarched to Gardelegen from the Südharz, Neuengamme und
Hannover-Stöcken concentration camps, where they were packed into a barn
on the Isenschnibbe estate and burned alived on April 13, 1945, a day
before American troops arrived and occupied the area.

The place is marked today by an impressive monument and the graves of the
1016 victims.

The following information is given for those who read German and desire to
find out more:

Source: http://www.topographie.de/gedenkstaettenforum/uebersicht/ad_41.htm


Mahn- und Gedenkstätte Gardelegen
Rathausplatz 10
39638 Gardelegen

Telefon 03907/6519
Fax 03907/6586

Leitung: Wally Schulz
Information: A. Bernstein, H. Bierstedt

B 71 bzw. B 188 bis Ortslage Gardelegen, Bismarcker Straße. Die Zufahrt
zur Mahn- und Gedenkstätte ist ausgeschildert

Verwaltung: Montag-Freitag 8-16 Uhr, 
sonst nach Vereinbarung. 
Die Gedenkmauer und das Gräberfeld sind jederzeit zu besichtigen.


1. Diana Gring: Die Todesmärsche und das Massaker von Gardelegen -
NS-Verbrechen in der Endphase des Zweiten Weltkrieges (Schriftenreihe des
Stadtmuseums Gardelegen, Heft 1). Gardelegen 1993

2. Rupert Kaiser: Tage im April - Ein Lesebuch mit Augenzeugen- und
Erlebnisberichten über die Todesmärsche und das Massaker in der
Isenschnibber Feldscheune 1945
(Schriftenreihe des Stadtmuseums Gardelegen, Heft 3). Gardelegen 1995 

3. Mahn- und Gedenkstätte Gardelegen (Faltblatt). Gardelegen 1995.
Kostenlos (auch in engl., franz., russ., poln.) 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:17:59 EDT 2001
Article: 897209 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassed victims
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 19:53:43 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3AFEB5BF.A9989E71@hotmail.com>, hero  wrote:

> Killing 70,000 needs time, energy????
> 
> Completely wrong.
> 
> Ask a Japanese. They killed 20-250,000 during the
> Rape of Nanking mostly by bayonets in just a few weeks.
> 
> Killing is not a problem for them, rather it was a
> party (though very abominable). It should have easily
> been done by the Germans if they desired so.
> 
> Or just let them starve.....

If we take your "few" to mean three, that means some 70,000 to 84,000 a
week killed by soldiers as opposed to prison guards, proving my point. The
standard Nazi methodology for liquidating concentration camps had been to
shoot those who were unable to march and evacuate the others to safer
concentration camps. This procedure was also followed to some degree at
Auschwitz, but even after several episodes of mass shooting they still had
72,000 people on their hands and the Soviets were just across the river.
There was neither time nor resources to organize a mass shooting on this
scale.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 13 17:18:00 EDT 2001
Article: 897317 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 23:26:49 +0300
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In article <3AFEC0BA.E499254F@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> They are not my "beloved Nazis." Indeed, they make me grateful I was born on
> this side of the Atlantic.

Well, there's an honest statement, born of incessant meditation and
prayer.


> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> However:
> 
> (1) I am convinced they got a bum rap, that they are accused of things they
> never did

You may be right, but mass gassing is not one of them. The Germans were
the world's leaders in the use of poison gases, and they used poison
gases to cull their own citizenry of undesirables within the framework
of the T4 euthanasia program long before they used the same procedure
on foreign Jews and Gypsies. With such expertise and experience, they
would have been absolute fools _not_ to use gassing as a means of
dealing with the undesirables in the parts of Europe they had conquered,
occupied, and intended to colonize, particularly since mass shootings
had revealed themselves to be totally unsuitable for a job which,
according to the Wannsee Protocol, would have required killing more
than 11,000,000 people as of January, 1942.

I've never understood your refusal to accept the abundant evidence that
the Nazis used mass gassing as a matter of policy. In a perverse way
gassing in death traps disguised as shower rooms is a much more humane
way of killing people than forcing them to undress in the freezing
cold, lie down on top of bleeding and quivering bodies, and be shot in
the back of the head. If I were to be the object of a genocide, I would
much prefer my last memory of this life to be an unexpected waft of an
almond-like scent rather than wait, cold, naked, and bloody, for an inevitable
shot in back of the head, nor do In think that I am alone in this sentiment.
Considerations of both efficiency and humaneness played an important role in
the
Nazis' decision to abandon mass shootings for mass gassings with Zyklon B.


> 
> (2) I am convinced that the ideology of National Socialism addresses things in
> Man's nature that are NOT addressed by a life based upon shopping malls and
> faster computer chips.

Things like killing your fellow citizens if they are more successful
than you, scapegoating them for your problems, pocketing their assets
since, if they had not acquired them, you would have, so they are
really yours anyway?

The ideology of National Socialism addresses some of the worst side's
of man's nature and, as a uniquely misanthropic philosophy, should be
eradicated root and branch from this planet.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:12 EDT 2001
Article: 897797 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:37:23 +0300
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In article <3AFE85A7.AF25B8AF@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> 
> =========================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Eugene's posts do have an air of Authority about them.For a while I was
inclined to
> accept them at face value until it came to the Mermelstein business. 
There, he
> presented a picture that was so fragmentary, so one-sided, so
incomplete, that I
> ceased to feel tht his materials could be taken at face value. This is how
> credibiity is lost.
> 
> ==============================================

The Mermelstein affair was brought up to refute your claim that no
American court would accept the factuality of the gassing of concentration
camp inmates by the Nazis on the basis of the evidence that has been
presented. The details and intrigues that drew the case out into a
decade-long chain of claims and counter-claims are not really relevant. A
California court did accept the factuality of homicidal mass gassings by
the Nazis, and that decision still stands to the best of my knowledge. You
introduced additional information to the discussion, but it was irrelevant
in the sense that the decision made by the California court almost twenty
years ago still stands, for which reason your claim that the court was
biased or that those were not normal times are extraneous to the issue.

QED.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:12 EDT 2001
Article: 897812 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Racism: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:49:27 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 28
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In article <3AFEC4F8.11FE78D8@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> ==============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I am not retired and I still have many ambitions - though none that an N/R
> regime would
> have a problme with.
> 
> ========================================

The last time they were in power they had trouble with Jews spreading
their opinions, using telephones, owning businesses, flying the
national flag, driving cars, employing domestic servants, using public
transportation, listening to radios, being outside after sunset, or
walking on sidewalks. 

American National Socialists would surely forbid their second-class
citizens to drink imported alcohol (such as the genuine champagne or
cognac in your well-stocked cabinet) because second-class citizens
would not be allowed to spend the national swag on imported hooch. 

Haver ypu *really* considered all the consequences of second-class
citizenship?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:13 EDT 2001
Article: 897818 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: Gassed victims
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:14:30 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <140520011214304551%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <9dng8s$seb$1@news.state.mn.us>, Norma Blankenfeld
 wrote:

> Where did the "3 months" figure come from?

The last use of the Auschwitz gas chambers was on October 30, 1944. The
gas chambers at Auschwitz-Birkenau were demolished by the Germans on
Himmlers orders in late November, 1944, and an effort was made to
destroy evidence of genocide, since the main choreographer of the
Holocasut, SS-Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler, by this time engaged in
secret negotiations with the Western Allies to conclude a possible
separate peace or at least save the skins of himself and some of his
associates, had an interest in minimizing evidence of systematic
genocide. Auschwitz was liberated by the Soviets on Januray 27, 1945.
Between October 30, 1944 and January 27, 1945 there are 89 - about
three months.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:13 EDT 2001
Article: 897836 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: Gassed victims
Supersedes: <140520011242023890%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:32:59 +0300
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In article <3AFF3FE9.C157BA62@hotmail.com>, hero 
wrote:

> If someone wants to commit genocide, why didn't
> they do it somewhere in a more remote location
> like Katyn where there were very few eyes? Killing
> millions in an industrial center and in the underground
> of the camp gate???

The death camps, Chelmno, Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka were in
relatively remote locations, but they also had to be spread out in
order to cover the country. The Nazis eventually learned that mass
murder could be concealed, even if committed near large cities, and
they were not afraid to set up shop at Auscwitz and Majdanek, close to
the major Polish cities of Katowice/Cracow and Lublin, respectively.

> 
> And survivors being marched off and leaving genocide
> eyewitnesses behind???  Too unprofessional for the
> SS. If you had 3 months, should have had more than enough
> time.

Witnesses were left behind, but the tools of genocide were largely
destroyed. When you really get down to it, the people who were left
behind, most of them emaciated and more dead than alive, where them
selves physical evidence of genocide. On the other hand, gassings were
limited to Auschwitz-Birkenau and done in closed chambers located
inside of buildings. Eyewitnesses saw people lining up to enter the
buildings containing gas chambers as well as, occasionally, dead bodies
being burned in pits outside of the gas chambers, although they were
normally disposed of within the same building where the gas chambers
were situated. Thus there were actually very few actual eyewitnesses to
gassings. People like Rudolf Vrba, an escapee, Dr. Hans Münch, on the
medical staff, Rodolf Höß, the camp commandant, Henryk Tauber and David
Orlère, Sonderkommandos, and the anonymous photographer who took
pictures of people being run into the gas chambers and being thrown
into the burning pits, strictly speaking, never witnessed gassings,
because gassings took place behind closed gas-proof doors. The people
in question eyewitnessed bits and pieces of the gassing procedure: what
are claimed to be medical orderlies dropping the Zyklon B in through
flues or special chimney-like structures, frightened people being run,
naked, into gas chambers, twisted, excrement-covered bodies still
reeking of cyanide to be removed from gas chambers, freshly gassed
bodies being tossed into burning pits.

This is the reason that dedicated sceptics and Nazi apologists have
been able to contest the historical factuality of gassing. Gassing by
its very nature cannot be a public procedure: it must be done behind
closed doors in specially constructed facilities. The Germans succeeded
in destroying enough evidence to make it considerably more difficult to
demonstrate the historical factuality of gassing than it has been to
demonstrate the historical factuality of mass-shootings, death marches,
or purposeful starvation as methodologies of genocide.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:13 EDT 2001
Article: 897865 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Supersedes: <140520011431379352%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:08:10 +0300
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In article <3AFFAABA.DE273013@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ==================================================
> Phillips
> 
> (1) The very notion that a body of events like the Holocaust could be resolved
> by a court decision is as preposterous as the notion that a court decision
> could
> also --permanently and precisely-- establish the value of pi.

The function of the courts is not to make decisions concerning the
interpretation of history.  Nevertheless, one of their functions is to
establish the factuality beyond reasonable doubt of events claimed to
have taken place in the past.

The California court, as well as other courts in the USA, Canada,
Austria, Australia, Germany, Poland, Hungary, France, the UK, the USSR,
Israel, Norway, and other countries, have all determined that the
available evidence suffices to establish beyond reasonable doubt that
the Nazis used mass gassings to kill people, including nationals of
most of the above-mentioned countries, at their euthanasia centers and
death camps.

 
> (2) When I said that the evidence presented for the Holocaust would not pass
> muster in an American court of law I had in mind a court operating in a proper
> judicial atmosphere - free of overwhelming passion and overwhelming media bias
> and overwhelming preconception.

And I claim that there have been hundreds of such trials in American
courts. They were not the object of media concern because they did not
involved people on an ego-trip trying to make martyrs of themselves by
denying and spreading disinformation about history. They have involved
people, many of them contrite and pitiable, who had entered the United
States under false pretences, sometimes under false identities, and
then, when their pasts caught up with them, were shown to have been
involved in Holocaust-era atrocities. The one that comes immediately to
mind is Karl Linnas, the only naturalized American to have been
deported to the USSR for Holocaust-era crimes, but there are many
others. The West German and Austrian courts were literally clogged with
trials of this type during the 1960s and 70s, as new documents were
found and the past of people on the implementational level of the
Holocaust caught up with them.

 
> (3) The Mermelstein affair illustrates to perfection the tirelessness and
> vindictiveness with which Jews and Jew-lawyers will pervert the law to to
> destroy those who anger them. That is why a National Socialist government will
> probably cut to near-zero the number of Jews admitted to law schools.
> 
> ==================================================================

If the courts serve truth and justice as opposed to racist ideology, it
won't matter a whit whether or not Jews are admitted to law schools.
During the civil rights struggle, when there were few black law-school
lawyers and no black judges, it was white people of good will who
worked to change the system, two of them, white, southern, gentiles,
Harry S. Truman and Lyndon B. Johnson, being regarded as having made
decisive steps to change the system. Similarly, there were very few
Jewish judges or lawyers in Austria and West Germany when the big
concentration camp trials were held there during the 1960s and 70s.
That did not prevent the Austrian and West German judiciaries from
passing judgement on the basis of the evidence presented, some of it
quite damning.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:14 EDT 2001
Article: 897872 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.israel
Subject: Re: Gassed victims
Supersedes: <140520011650581651%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:49:31 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 97
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In article <3AFFD057.11202A82@hotmail.com>, hero 
wrote:

> To Mr Public;
> 
> As Mr Diogenes mentioned above, jews resort to abuse
> when confronted by difficult questions they can not
> answer.
> 
> This is a subject that was chronically brought up in
> the past but never answered properly. It's an issue that
> persisted since the early 70's as far as I can remember or
> maybe more.
> 
> If the intention was really genocide meaning to exterminate
> the jewish race, why didn't the germans put the jews inside the
> buildings when they dynamitted the entire complex??????????

Yeah, sure. Squeeze the 70,000 odd Jews that were at Auschwitz during
the final months into the four buildings, with gas chambers designed
for max. 2,000 each, and dynamite the whole shebbang, including all
cremation facilities, leaving behind a carnage of untold dimensions. A
truly fantastic way to destroy evidence... 70,000 people is a sell-out
crowd at a major league baseball stadium.


> 
> Here, you kill them and get rid of evidence, kill 2 birds with 1 stone.
> Voila!!!

The Germans, being involved in an all-fronts war, had a terrific
manpowewr shortage. Many Jews had critical skills which, under proper
supervision, could be exploited by the German war effort.

Nazi ideology taught that the only good Jew was a dead Jew. The
economic realities dictated that some Jews were worth more to the war
effort alive than dead, while other Jews were worth more dead than
alive. Conflicts between different bureaucracies, one aimed at
maximizing the body count, the other aimed at maximizing the amount of
benefit extracted, are known to have arisen from late 1941 onwards. In
the extract below an exterminationist, SS-Brigadeführer Walter
Stahlecker, commander of Einsatzkommando A, justifies his position to
an exploiter Hinrich Lohse, the governer of the civil government
established in the Baltics by the Nazis:


Source: A. Ezergailis. _The Holocaust in Latvia: 1941-1944_. Riga.
1996, pg. 378 ff.

>From Stahlecker's Answer to Lohse's Guidelines on Treatment of Jews in
the Ostland


Einsatzgruppe A           Novoselsk, August 6, 1941
Headquarters


[with reference to the war that ended with the occupation of Poland]
The Generalgouvernement saw already during the war, even more strongly
after it, that there was a need to leave Jewish labor in its workplace.
This was particularly desirable to mantain vital services to meet not
only the needs of the people, but also those of the occupation army.
Besides, in the absence of any other workforce, the Jewish-operated
enterprises had to satisfy pressing war needs of the state.


...in the treatment of the Jewish problem in the Ostland, consideration
of the labor needs are completely irrelevant.


Sabotage and acts of terror can be expected not only from communists
not caught in previous actions, but precisely from the Jews, who will
use every possibility to create disorder. The pressing need to pacify
the Ost area quickly makes it necessary to eliminate all likely sources
of disorder.



This was written during the late summer of 1941 when the Germans thought
that the war in the east would be over in a few weeks. By 1944, when it
had become obvious that Germany could not win, Jews were needed as
manpower, as human shields, and as possible bargaining chips. Heinrich
Himmler, who ordered that the gassings be stopped, that gas chambers be
demolished, and that elderly and sick Jews be cared for, was working on
aseveral deals behind Hitler's back. One was to have the Western Allies
switch sides and fight the Soviets alongside Germany, a fanciful option
which would of course have required him to demonstrate that, contrary to
rumors, Germany was treating Jews in a civilized manner. The other was
to barter Jews in exchange for safe passage for himself and his
croonies. Both of these fell through, and the savagery and mayhem that
marked the last days of the concentration camps continued. It should be
noted that the gas chamber at the Ravensbrück women's camp did not
become operational until January, 1945. It was used mostly to gas
babies.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:14 EDT 2001
Article: 897885 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Racism: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 18:45:57 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 82
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References:  <3AFDD580.5C3951DA@earthlink.net> <130520010956397310%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFE77E6.886C71AF@earthlink.net>   <3AFEC4F8.11FE78D8@earthlink.net>  <3AFFA88A.93E1815@earthlink.net>
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In article <3AFFA88A.93E1815@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Your first mistake is that you just do not know what had been going on in
> Germany and why the resentment of the host majority had become so fierce.

Why don't you tell us exactly what was going on in Germany, and why the
resentment of the majority was so fierce? Jews made up a miniscule
minority in Germany, never more than 2% of the population. They were
"overrepresented" in certain urban professions because provious waves
of anti-Semitism had made them into city dwellers at a time when
professions such as lawyer, physician, dentist, gynocologist,
journalist, entertainer, and scholar had become open to the middle
class rather than to a small and exclusive elite.

Popular mythology, vulgar anti-Semitism, in Germany blamed Jews for:
1. causing Germany's defeat in WW I
2. profiteering during WW I
3. Germany' loss of territory, colonies, and prestige after WW II
4. the imposition of ear reparations on WW II
5. causing social unrest in Germany after WW I
6. causing the hyperinflation that wiped out people's savings
7. helping each other to survive during that hyperinflation
8. the instability of the Weimar government
9. the crisis of capitalism that brought on the great depression
10. the unemployment and social dispalcements that followed the great
depression
11. the entertainment which kept people amused during the great
depression
12. the labor unrest that developed as corporations and workers fought
to overcome the great depression
13. the communism which some people thought of as an alternative to the
capitalist system which had caused the great depression
14. non-representative art, smutty stories, questionable intellectual
theories, and sentimental music
15. dominating certain high-status professions
16. polluting the Aryan race by intermarriage and conversion to
Christianity
17. the backwind that allowed Jessie Owens to defeat numerous Germans
at the 1936 Berlin Olympics.

Those are the sins I can think of from having read *Mein Kampf* once
long ago, but I'm sure Hitler listed many more. In his *Political
Testiment* he blames them for WW II and for Germany's defeat in it as
well.

It seems to me that anything that Hitler and his cohorts disliked or
found troublesome they blamed on Germany's tiny Jewish minority. When
they saw that restricting their freedoms and otherwise marghinalizing
them did not solve the problems, they decided to do the same to the
Jews of Europe, also a small minority, and possibly to the Jews of the
world. Somehow, I think that even if they had succeeded in killing
every last Jew in the world, they would still think that some were in
hiding and sticking pins into voodoo doll of Hitler.


> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> YOur second mistake is to suppose that any N/S regime in America will
> fnecessarily ollow the same policies of the 1933-45 regime in Germany.
> 
> ===========================================

You yourself speak of second-class citizenship, denial of access to
educational establishments, and possible forced emigration. That's how
things *started* in Nazi Germany as well. Soon they were getting into
dabbling in more iniquitous stuff, such as annulling mixed marriages,
forced sterilization, arbitrary street violence, and trashing
businesses and homes. Having whet their appetites on that, they got
into the really wicked stuff such as euthanasia. Finally they decided
to share their fun and games with the rest of Europe. It's a slippery
slope, and the lessons taught by one, luckily temporary, descent into
barbarism should be enough to prevent any sane person from desiring a
repeat performance in another venue.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:14 EDT 2001
Article: 897905 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mindless barn stories
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 20:10:49 +0300
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In article <3b01072d.484029112@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Holman appears to give us the "official" Gardelegen website: 
> >Check out the official Gardelegen website at
> >http://www.topographie.de/gedenkstaettenforum/uebersicht/d_41.htm
> >
> >It states the number of victims to be 1016 concentration camp prisoners
> >who were deathmarched to Gardelegen from the Südharz, Neuengamme und
> >Hannover-Stöcken concentration camps, where they were packed into a barn
> >on the Isenschnibbe estate and burned alived on April 13, 1945, a day
> >before American troops arrived and occupied the area.
> 
> >The place is marked today by an impressive monument and the graves of the
> >1016 victims.
> 
> >The following information is given for those who read German and desire to
> >find out more:
> >
> >Source: http://www.topographie.de/gedenkstaettenforum/uebersicht/ad_41.htm
> >Regards,
> >Eugene Holman
> 
> Okay, we can see that Holman has not addressed all the things that
> have been said so far about the inconsistencies and problems of the
> Gardelegen tales. The "official" site says nothing in detail. Whatever
> Holman has included is pretty much what most accounts said, which is
> nothing more than the number of alleged victims. 
> 
> Lets consider this little sentence from Holman, "It states the number
> of victims to be 1016 concentration camp prisoners who were
> deathmarched to Gardelegen from the Südharz, Neuengamme und
> Hannover-Stöcken concentration camps, ..." 
> 
> Now lets compare it to some of the other accounts we can find on the
> web.
> 

The website, which is indeed the official one (no quotes needed), gives
references to two monographs devoted eclusively to the massacre:

1. Diana Gring: Die Todesmärsche und das Massaker von Gardelegen -
NS-Verbrechen in der Endphase des Zweiten Weltkrieges (Schriftenreihe
des Stadtmuseums Gardelegen, Heft 1). Gardelegen 1993

2. Rupert Kaiser: Tage im April - Ein Lesebuch mit Augenzeugen- und
Erlebnisberichten über die Todesmärsche und das Massaker in der
Isenschnibber Feldscheune 1945 (Schriftenreihe des Stadtmuseums
Gardelegen, Heft 3). Gardelegen 1995 

I suggest that readers interested in the details as understood by
historians try to obtain these monographs or, alternatively, contact
the Museum at the memorial site:

Telephone: 03907/6519
Fax: 03907/6586

Open: M to F, 8 AM to 4 PM (Central European Time).

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:15 EDT 2001
Article: 897915 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Racism: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:06:40 +0300
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In article <3B000793.642E9132@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> ========================================
> 
> >
> > 15. dominating certain high-status professions
> 
> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Jewish over-representation in the fields of Law and Medicine were undoubted
> facts and facts that were greatly resented by the Aryan majority.  YOu will
> say
> that it shouldn't have mattered. Possibly it should not have, but it did.
> There
> was never any talk of "level playing fields" in Germany.
> 
> ========================================

Source: http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~civil/africanfailure.html


If Hitler had utilized the Jews in Germany, he would have won World War
Two. Einstein, Oppenheimer, Fermi, and Teller, who were Jews, developed
the atomic and hydrogen bombs that ended World War Two and kept the
United States and Europe secure since 1945 when the first atomic bomb,
developed in large part by brilliant, high IQ Jewish scientists, was
exploded on Hiroshima.
 

> ================================
> 
> > they decided to do the same to the
> > Jews of Europe,
> 
> =============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Wrong. The Nazsi did nto decide to perseucte the Jews of Europe; Europe
> decided
> to.
> 
> ==================================================

Care to back that up? In the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Norway, Denmark,
Estonia, Latvia, and Greece, to take a few examples, there was no
history of anti-Semitic feelings or actions until the Nazis arrived.
Italy, which had an otherwise fascist, pro-Nazi government, also
refused to have anything to do with the Final Solution until the
country was attacked by the Nazis.

> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> I repeat that there is no way to predict the course that will be followed by a
> possible NS regime in America and you do not cost me any sleep by your wild
> conjectures on the matter.
> 
> =========================

My "wild conjectures" are based on an intimate acquaintance with the
history of the evolving policy towards Jews in Nazi Germany. My more
general knowledge of history, anthropology, and human nature tells me
that people who have absolute power and bear grudges tend, mutatis
mutandis, to behave in the same manner.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:15 EDT 2001
Article: 898508 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mindless barn stories
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:24:26 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3b076758.508651194@news.pacificnet.net>, trm@pacificnet.net
(tom moran) wrote:

> Holman had presented:
> >Check out the official Gardelegen website at
> >http://www.topographie.de/gedenkstaettenforum/uebersicht/d_41.htm
> >
> >It states the number of victims to be 1016 concentration camp prisoners
> >who were deathmarched to Gardelegen from the Südharz, Neuengamme und
> >Hannover-Stöcken concentration camps, where they were packed into a barn
> >on the Isenschnibbe estate and burned alived on April 13, 1945, a day
> >before American troops arrived and occupied the area.
> 
> 
> Here's some more which Holman neglected to present in his true fashion
> of intentional omission.
> 
> http://www.topographie.de/gedenkstaettenforum/uebersicht/e/d_41.htm

I don't "intentionally omit", rather I selectively post. I always give the
website from which I am posting, and mark where I have made deletions. I
assume that a reader further intersted in the issue will access the
website and do his/her own further reading. That is the norm in academic
research. Had I been posting in bad faith, you would not have been able to
retrieve the information you did.

> 
> [ Interesting. The area was turned over to the Russians on June 1,
> 1945 just a month and a half after the massacre. The Russians used it
> for their own aims.  Now "special attention on new material".
> 

Correct. Germny was divided into occupation zones and Gardelegen, close to
Magdeburg, happened to lie within the Soviet zone. The Soviet occupation
authorities and GDR government which followed it downplayed the
Holocaustto further their own ideological agenda.


> Looks like we could be having some surprises in store. After all the
> only thing we have to this date are some "war stories" of a corporal,
> a tale by another enlisted man and what's in the likes of Martin
> Gilbert's book which conflicts with everything. ] 

There is also the physical evidence of the 1016 graves, at least one
photograph of a charred body in Goldhagen's book (with references), and
the two monographs that I mentioned previosuly by Diana Gring and Rupert
Kaiser.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:15 EDT 2001
Article: 898509 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:33:05 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 43
Message-ID: 
References:  <3AFA4C9C.78994076@earthlink.net> <100520011521210222%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFA9A9D.53ECD763@earthlink.net> <100520011908471098%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFAD097.CE07AFED@earthlink.net> <110520011258321443%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFBE744.C3A9B32@earthlink.net> <110520012016289722%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>  <3AFE85A7.AF25B8AF@earthlink.net>  <3AFFAABA.DE273013@earthlink.net> <140520011708103806%holman@elo.helsinki.fi> <3AFFECCB.2FDAE13E@earthlink.net>  <3B0026D5.ECC622D5@earthlink.net>  <3B00BD9C.F758877A@earthlink.net>
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In article <3B00BD9C.F758877A@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Andy Walton wrote:


> > Assuming you're using a modern newsreader:
> >
> > (1) point.
> >
> > (2) click.
> >
> > The resulting browser window will be your message which I quoted above the
> > long URL.
> 
> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> Sorry mister, but I"ve seen too many website swindles to be taken in by
any more.
> 
> If you want to point me to something there you do three things:
> 
> (1) State what I will find there
> 
> (2) State the sequence of choices
> 
> (3) State the URL.
> 
> If you fail to do any of those things, the site is not going to be
visited which means that what it had to say is not going to be said.
> 
> ==============================

Oy gevalt, Richard. You really can be thick sometimes.

Andy was telling you that with a modern Newsreader, such as Microsoft
Outlook, you don't need to state sequences of choices. All URLs in a
posting show up highlighted, and you merely click them. The computer does
the rest. Sheesh!

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:16 EDT 2001
Article: 898518 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:36:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 639
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In article <3B00BD9C.F758877A@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
 wrote:

> Andy Walton wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B0026D5.ECC622D5@earthlink.net>, "Richard G. Phillips"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >   :> Then why, for the last few years, have you been insisting on the
standard
> >   :> of evidence that would prevail in criminal court? It's been a steady
> >   :> drumbeat since you started posting here, that Germany was being
> >   :> "slandered" because evidence beyond a reasonable doubt was not
presented.
> >   :
> >   :==================================================
> >   :Phillips
> >   :
> >   :(1) Because the rules of evidence of Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence are a
> >   :means of arriving at truth between two contesting parties. They are
> >   :grievously flawed, have often made terrible mistakes, depend
> >   :very much on the integrity of the men using them. But they are the
best we
> >   :have and -taking all in all-- can be said to have stood the test of time.
> >   :
> >   :I submit that, based upon those rules of evidence, what we hve been told
> >   :is not sufficient for a conviction.
> >
> > Unless I misunderstand the controversy between you and Eugene, competent
> > courts in that tradition you revere have held otherwise.
> 
> ============================================
> Phillips
> 
> The Holocaust has never had to undergo a process like a court trial,
where there are rules of evidence, where questions HAVE to be
> answered, where evasion and obfuscation are not possible, where once a
question has been settled, it is impossible to act as if it had
> not been.
> 
> ==================================

The Holocaust cannot be put on trial, any more than WW II can be put on
trial. Both consist of millions of events separated from today by more
than half a century and the tooth of time.

Various people involved in both WW II and the Holocaust *have* been put on
trial in dozens of countries over the years. They have been tried not for
WW II or for the Holociast, but rather for specific criminal events which
make up the vast panorama of both historical entities.

With respect to the Holocaust, many perpetrators of the individual and
identifiable crimes making up the Holocaust have been put on trial, with
judgment handed down on the basis of an evaluation by the courts of the
various types of physical, testimonial, and documentary evidence given.
Others, knowing the overwhelming amount of evidence against them,
committed suicide rather than stand trial.

Let us consider three examples trials that took place when the Holocaust
was still fresh in memory:

1. Henryk Tauber (http://www.mazal.org/archive/documents/Tauber/Tauber01.htm)


Deposition made by HENRYK TAUBER in the Polish Courts
May 24, 1945.  

In Auschwitz, on 24th May 1945, Jan Sehn, examining judge in Cracow,
member of the Central Commission for the Investigation of Hitlerite Crimes
in Poland, at the request of, in the presence of and with the
participation of the vice-prosecutor of the Cracow Regional Court, Edward
Pechalski, pursuant to Article 254 and in connection with Articles 107 and
115 of the Criminal Code, interrogated former Auschwitz concentration camp
prisoner 90124, who testified as follows: 

My name is HENRYK TAUBER, I was born on 8th July 1917 in Chrzanow, son of
Abraham Tauber and Minda nee Szajnowic, unmarried, of the Jewish faith, of
Polish nationality and citizenship, shoemaker by trade, domiciled at 1
Grunwaldzka Street, Chrzanow, with no police record. 

Until the war broke out in 1939, I lived with my immediate family of 12
persons in Chrzanow. Of this family, one of my brothers-in-law and myself
are the only ones to have survived the war. Up to now I have had no news
of the fate of one of my brothers who went to Russia. After many
expropriations and displacements, my family and I were separated and I
found myself in the Crakow ghetto. There, I was arrested in November 1942
and incarcerated in the Jewish police prison at 31 Jozefinska Street. On
19th January 1943 I was transferred to Auschwitz with 400 Jews from the
Cracow ghetto and 800 Aryans from Monteluppich (Cracow prison). This
transport consisted of about 800 men and 400 women. On our arrival at
Auschwitz station, the women were separated from the men and installed in
the women's camp in Birkenau. Included in a group of 250 Jewish prisoners
and about 550 Aryans, I was assigned to block 27, sector B1b. This block
was unfinished, without windows, doors or bunks. Later on, I went to
blocks 22 and 20 in the same sector of the camp. I spent a few days at
Buna (Monowitz) from where, because of typhus detected in my group, I was
transferred back to Birkenau and put in block 21 of sector B1b. In the
meantime, there were the formalities of registration, during which I
stated that I was a qualified fitter-mechanic by trade. 

At the beginning of February 1943, Unterscharfuhrer (sergeant) Groll of
the Arbeitsdienst (labor service) and prisoner Mikusz of the
Arbeitseinsatz (labor deployment) came in our block and selected from
among the prisoners living there some specialists for what was supposed to
be work in the Auschwitz workshops. Twenty young Jews were picked out. We
were then taken to block IV (main camp) where we were examined by a doctor
who declared us all fit. The same day we were taken by truck, under SS
guard, to Auschwitz and installed in Bunker 7 (basement cell) in block XI
(main camp). The next day we, the twenty prisoners, were taken under a
stronger SS guard, to the bunker in which, as we learned later,
Krematorium I was installed. There we met seven Jews, among them
Jankowski, and three Poles. The Capo was Mietek Morawa from Cracow. He was
a tall, blond, slim man about 24 years old. One of his brothers was a
boxer in Cracow. I heard that Morawa's family lived in Dibnikach (a
district of Cracow). From the very beginning of his activity in the first
crematorium (Kr. 1), he was a very strict Capo who carried out the work
ordered by the Germans in conformity with the regulations. Later on, he
was promoted to Obercapo (principal Capo) of Birkenau Krematorien II and
III. There, he tried to live on good terms with us, for there were then
about 400 of us and we had been working there long enough to be ready for
anything and to let nobody spit in our plate (Polish expression: "not let
anyone walk over us"). 

 The day after our arrival at the crematorium (Kr I) an SS
Unterscharführer (sergeant) whose name I forget gave us a pep talk. He
warned that we were going to have to do unpleasant work to which we would
have to accustom ourselves, and which after a certain time would present
no more difficulty. He spoke Polish the whole time. Never during all his
speech did he once mention the fact that we would have to burn the bodies
of human beings. As soon as he finished the speech, he ordered "Los, an
die Arbeit!" (OK, get to work!) and started beating our heads with a
bludgeon. With Mietek Morowa, he drove us towards the bunker
(Leichenhalle, or morgue) of Krematorium I, where we discovered some
hundreds of corpses. They were in heaps, one on top of the other, dirty
and frozen. Many of them were covered in blood, their skulls crushed,
others had their stomachs open, probably as the result of autopsy. All
were frozen and we had to separate them from one another with axes.
Beaten, and harassed by the Unterscahfuhrer and Capo Morawa, we dragged
these corpses to the "hajcownia" (German-Polish term meaning "boiler
room"), where there were three furnaces, each with two muffles. I
designate as "muffle", in conformity with the nomenclature used by the
Soviet Commission, the corpse incineration hearths. 

In the "boiler room" we put the corpses on a trolley with a high platform
that ran on rails installed between the furnaces. This trolley went from
the door of the bunker, where the corpses were, on a turntable that
crossed the "boiler room" on broad rails. From these there ran narrower
rails on which the trolley itself fitted, leading to each muffle. The
trolley ran on four metal wheels. Its strong frame was in the form of a
box, and to make it heavier we weighted it with stones and scrap metal.
The upper part was extended by a metal slide over two metres long. We put
five corpses on this: first we put two with the legs towards the furnace
and the belly upwards. The arms of this last one hung down and seemed to
embrace the other bodies below. The weight of such a load sometimes
exceeded that of the ballast, and in order to prevent the trolley from
tipping up and spilling the corpses we had to support the slide by
slipping a plank underneath it. Once the slide was loaded, we pushed it
into the muffle. Once the corpses were introduced into the furnace, we
held them there by means of a metal box that slid on top of the charging
slide, while other prisoners pulled the trolley back, leaving the corpses
behind. There was a handle at the end of the slide for gripping and
pulling back the sliding box. Then we closed the door. In Krematorium I,
there were three, two-muffle furnaces, as I have already mentioned. Each
muffle could incinerate five human bodies. Thirty corpses could be
incinerated at the same time in this crematorium. At the time when I was
working there, the incineration of such a charge (5 corpses in one muffle)
took up to an hour and a half, because they were the bodies of very thin
people, real skeletons, which burned very slowly. I know from the
experience gained by observing cremation in Krematorien II and III that
the bodies of fat people burn very much faster. The process of
incineration is accelerated by the combustion of human fat which thus
produces additional heat. 

All these furnaces were located in a hall that I have called the "boiler
room". Near the entrance to this hall, there was one furnace with its
hearth facing the entrance door and the muffles towards the interior of
the hall. The two others faced in the opposite direction, muffles towards
the entrance doors and hearths towards the back of the hall. They were at
the other end of the room. These furnaces were coke-fired. They were
built, as could be seen by the inscriptions on the doors of the furnaces,
by the firm Topf & Sohne of Erfu[r]t. The trolley for transporting the
corpses was also supplied by this firm. 

Behind the boiler room there was a small coke store with a little office
beside it and then on the right the store for the urns containing human
ashes. The entrance door which now leads to the hall that I call the
boiler room was put in later. When I was working in Krematorium I, that
door did not exist. We used to enter through the corridor to the boiler
room through the door to the left of the entrance. There were two (other)
doors of this type. The first door, on the right of the corridor, opened
on an auxiliarystore where the spare fire bars were kept. The men from
small transports, brought by truck, used to undress there. When I was
working at Krematorium I, they were shot in the bunker of the crematorium.
Such transports arrived once or twice a week and comprised 30 to 40
people. They were of different nationalities. During the executions, we,
the members of the Sonderkommando, were shut up in the coke store. Then we
would find the bodies of the shot people in the bunker. All the corpses
had a firearm wound in the neck. The executions were always carried out by
the same SS man from the Political Section, accompanied by another SS from
the same Section who made out the death certificates for those shot. Capo
Morawa was not with us in the coke store during the shootings. I don't
know what he did during this time. We carried the still warm and bloody
bodies of the shot people from the bunker to the boiler room. The second
door on the right of the corridor led to a small room where the human
ashes were put. We passed through this room to reach the bunker proper,
used during my time there for shooting the victims and which previously
had been used for gassing people. In December 1942, 400 prisoners of the
Sonderkommando were gassed there.




2. Hans Münch
(http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Munchtest.html)



Q. What was your first impression of Auschwitz when you arrived?

A. I had already heard about extermination camps, and particularly
extermination camps for Jews, through reports over the Swiss radio that I
listened to regularly in the preceding years, but since I considered this
news to be propaganda, I did not believe it at the time, because the facts
that were being described seemed too terribly outrageous to me. When I
arrived in Auschwitz, and had to convince myself personally that these
reports were not exaggerated, I was very much shaken emotionally. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, you were informed about the fact that human beings were
gassed at Auschwitz? 

A. Yes. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, for what reason did you not spread the fact that human
beings were being gassed and exterminated? 

A. I was asked this very often and also before the Supreme Court of
Cracow, and I can say in answer to it that that would have been a
completely useless undertaking which would have very shortly caused me and
my family to be liquidated very quickly, because the Gestapo was so well
organized and the threats for nonobservance of the secrecy that surrounded
the Auschwitz exterminations were so clearly worded for members of the SS
that everybody avoided telling even his closest friend about it, because
experience taught us that anybody who talked about it in any way was very
quickly found because the Gestapo sniffed out every rumor very
consistently that spread about Auschwitz. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, what would you say if someone visited a plant in Auschwitz
twice or three times a year for a period of one or two days? Would he then
have to gain knowledge about these things? 

A. I repeatedly witnessed guided tours of civilians and also of
commissions of the Red Cross and other parties within the camp, and I was
able to ascertain that the camp leadership arranged it masterfully to
conduct these guided tours in such a way that the people being guided
around did not see anything about inhuman treatment. The main camp was
shown only and in this main camp there were so-called show blocks,
particularly block 13, that were especially prepared for such guided tours
and that were equipped like a normal soldier's barracks with beds that had
sheets on them, and well-functioning washrooms. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, did you personally ever witness the gassing of human beings? 

A. Yes, I saw one gassing at one time. 

... 

Q. Mr. witness, you testified a little earlier that those who were sick in
the camps, like in concentration camp Monowitz, would be sent to
Auschwitz-Birkenau, but I wasn't quite clear as to why they were sent to
Auschwitz-Birkenau. I'd like to put just a question or two to you on that.
Mr. witness, those people who were in the hospital at Monowitz and were
shipped to Auschwitz-Birkenau because of an edema or phlegmon, for what
purpose were they shipped to Birkenau? 

A. As far as these people were Jews, I must state that most of them were
gassed. 

Q. And, Mr. witness, if they were sent from the hospital in Monowitz to
Auschwitz-Birkenau, and they were Jews; and they were sent because of
weakness and collapse, why were they sent to Birkenau? 

A. Also to be gassed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source: Trials of War Criminals, Vol. VIII. p. 313-321. The Nizkor Project




3. SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln
(http://www.webstar5.com/electriczen/jeckeln.html)


The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln

In his interrogation on 14 December 1945, (1) Minutes the Higher SS and
Police Leader Jeckeln detailed the operations that fell within the
framework of the Final Solution in the East:


The shootings were carried out under the direction of Colonel Dr. Lange,
Commander of the SD and Gestapo in Latvia. Knecht was in charge of
security at the liquidation sites. (2) I, Jeckeln, took part in the
shootings on three occasions; the same holds for Lange, Knecht, Lohse, and
Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police in Riga.


Q: Who did the shooting?

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.

Q: What was the procedure?

A: All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga to the liquidation
site. Near the pits, they had to deposit their overclothes, which were
washed, sorted, and shipped back to Germany. Jews - men, women, and
children - passed through police cordons on their way to the pits, where
they were shot by German soldiers.

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?

A: Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto in Riga had
been liquidated. And then when I was in Lötzen, East Prussia, in December
1941, I reported in person, too. (3) Himmler was satisfied with the
results. He said that more Jewish convoys were due to arrive in Latvia,
and these were to be liquidated by me also.

Q: Go into more detail.

A: At the end of January 1942, (4) I was at Himmler's headquarters in
Lötzen, East Prussia, to discuss organizational matters regarding the
Latvian SS legions. There Himmler informed me that additional Jewish
convoys were due to arrive from the Reich and from other countries. The
destination point would be the Salaspils concentration camp, which lay one
and a quarter miles from Riga in the direction of Dünaburg. Himmler said
that he had not yet determined how he would have them exterminated:
whether to have them shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils, or
whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere.

Q: How was the matter resolved?

A: It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and quicker death.
Himmler said he would think it over and then give orders later through
Heydrich.

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium,
Holland,Czechoslovakia, and from other occupied countries to the Salaspils
camp. To give a precise count of the Jews in the Salaspils camp would be
difficult. In any case, all the Jews from the camp were exterminated. But
I would like to make an additional statement while we are on this topic.

Q: What statement would you like to make?

A: I would like to say for the record that Göring shares in the guilt for
the liquidations of Jewish convoys that arrived from other countries. In
the first half of February 1942 I received a letter from Heydrich. In this
letter he wrote that Reich Marshall Göring had gotten himself involved in
the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being shipped to the East for
annihilation only with Göring's approval.

Q: This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in the Jewish
liquidations in Salaspils.

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of Jews in
Salaspils with Himmler in Lötzen. That alone makes me an accessory to this
crime. Beyond that, Jews were shot in Salaspils camp by forces recruited
>from my SD and Security Police units. The commander of the SD and Gestapo
in Latvia, Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Lange, was directly in charge of the
shootings. Other officers who reported to me on the shooting of Jews in
the camp were the commander of the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States,
Major General Jost; Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police
Fuchs.

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you?

A: They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were to arrive per
week, all subject to liquidation.

Q: Then the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought to be known too, isn't
that correct?

A: Yes, of course. I can give you the approximate figures. The first
Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in November 1941. Then, in the first
half of 1942, convoys arrived at regular intervals. I believe that in
November 1941, no more than three convoys arrived in all, but during the
next seven months, from December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve
convoys arrived each month. Overall, in eight months, no less than
fifty-five and no more than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived in camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes a total of
55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils camp.

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?

A: I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added, however, that
before my arrival in Riga, a significant number of Jews in the Ostland and
in White Ruthenia were exterminated. I was informed of this fact.(5)

Q: By whom, specifically?

Stahlecker; Prützmann; Lange; Major General Schröder, the SS and Police
Leader in Latvia; Major General Möller, the SS and Police Leader in
Estonia; and Major General Wysocki, the SS and Police Leader in Lithuania.

Q: Be specific. What did they report?

A: Schröder reported to me that over and above those Jews who had been
exterminated in the ghetto in Riga an additional 70,000 to 100,000 Jews
were exterminated in Latvia. Dr. Lange directly oversaw these shootings.
Möller reported that in Estonia everything was in order as far as the
Jewish question was concerned. The Estonian Jewish population was
insignificant, all in all about 3,000 to 5,000 and this was reduced to
nil. The greater part were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki reported that
100,000 to 200,000 Jews were exterminated - shot - in Lithuania, on
Stahlecker's orders. In Lithuania, the Jewish exterminations were overseen
by the commander of the SD and Gestapo, Lieutenant Colonel of Police
Jäger. Later Jäger told me that he had become neurotic as a result of
these shootings. Jäger was pensioned off and left his post for treatment.
All told, the number of Jews exterminated in the actions in the Baltic
East reached somewhere in the vicinity of 190,500 to 253,000. (6) 



(1) Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945 (Major
Zwetajew, interrogator; Sergeant Suur, interpreter), pp. 8 - 13,
Historical State Archives, Riga.

(2) Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in Latvia.

(3) I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald"headquarters in Lötzen.

(4) I.e., 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 p.m.; per RFSS appointments
book, NS 19DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz. 

On the same day Himmler made the following handwritten entry, re: his
telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze 17 [i.e., 5:00 P.M.] SS
Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into concentration camps"NS 19/neu 1439
Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

(5) Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and Police Leader
for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln personnel file, Berlin Document
Center. A second promotion to the rank of Leader of the SS Upper Section,
"Ostland," occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19
neu/2846]).

(6) In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police of Riga
(dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenführer Karl Jäger reported the
following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: "Re: executions through 1
February 1942, by the Einsatzkommando 3A: Jews 136,421. Total: 138,272, of
these, women: 55,556; children: 34,464" (Institut für Zeitgeschichte
3253/63 Fb 76 [a]).


Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the Final Solution. Berkeley: University of
California Press. 1984. pp. 95 - 98 



***********************************************************

These statements were given in three distant cities, Cracow, Nuremberg,
and Riga, by people who are unlikely to have known of each other's
existence. Yet tall three of them provide information clearly relevant to
a program to exterminate ("liquidate", to use Jeckeln's terminology) that
had special facilities and work detail procedures for this purpose, as
described by Tauber and Münch, methods to keep it secret, as described by
Münch, as well as methods of communication to and from the planning and
implentational levels, as described by Jeckeln. So extensive was this
operation that it was discussed in Swiss radio broadcasts, as described by
Münch, even if it was difficult for those not immediatly involved to know
what was truth and what was fiction or propaganda.

If your view were correct, all of these men, a surviving Jewish
Sonderkommando member, a "good" Nazi, and a "bad" Nazi, are guilty of
purgery, and all of them, each at quite different trials, would have
fabricated tales which are both internally consistent and consistent with
all of the other documentary and physical evidence we have of the
Holocaust.

The only straw that you continue to hang on to is your interpretation of
the Leuchter Report which is incorrect. The results of the Leuchter Report
are consistent with other evidence according to which both the fumigation
chambers and parts of the buildings which held the gas chambers were
repeatedly subjected to the lethal concentrations of cyanide necessary for
amounts of cyanide compunds to have built up which are still detectable
after half a century even in environments that have been exposed to the
elements since 1944.


> >   :(2) When a judge "takes judicial notice" of the factuality of mass
> >   :gassings, he did not do so after listening to evidence presented by both
> >   :sides and weighing that evidence according to judicial
> >   :rules. He was doing nothing more than expressing his own personal
opinions.
> >
> > A judge does not necessarily hear arguments from both sides before taking
> > "judicial notice."
> 
> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Since that is the case, I do not, cannot, and will not regard this
judicial notivce business as anything other than the stating of a
> judge's opinion.
> 
> ===================================

It is more than the judge's opinion. He said that it would be absurd to
redo the work of two generations of academic scholarship. If I go into a
courtroom as an absolute sceptic, I can contest the ability of bullets to
kill people. No matter how many people are killed with a bullet, I can
still claim various extenuating and other factors. No legal system can
function without accepting certain everyday truths. Some Holocaust deniers
have attempted to argue that the Holocaust could not have happened because
there weren't 6,000,000 Jews in Germany. A judge has to use his common
sense to dismiss any case based on such a specious premise.


> > "Judicial notice" essentially means "yeah, I hear you."
> 
> =====================================
> Phillips
> 
> NO, it means much more than that. It means: THIS IS THE WAY IT IS.
> 
> ========================================

It means this is the way the issue in question is accepted by educated and
sane people in our culture. The legal system will not allow the courts to
be used to defend cases where, say I accuse somebody of defaming me as an
ignorant fool because I have claimed publicly that the capital of France
is Rome, or that it requires "colossally higher" (note, David Irving's
claim) concentrations of cyanide to kill people than it does to kill lice.
Legal systems assume that all litigants share a certain body of generally
accepted facts and cultural baggage.

> ==========================================
> PHillips
> 
> We have no known records of any judge ever having tried the case of the
Holocaust as he would have tried a civil or criminal case.
> 
> ===========================

We do have cases of judges trying thousands of Holocaust perpetuators in
normal civil and criminal cases, paticularly in those involving people who
have enterd the United States, Canada, and Australia under false
pretences.

Source: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/suspect.html

Nazi Suspect Returns to Australia 

New York Times
January 7, 2000
By The Associated Press

SYDNEY, Australia (AP) -- A Nazi war crimes suspect, thrown out of several
countries on suspicion of participating in mass killings, arrived today
back in his adopted home country, Australia. 

Konrad Kalejs arrived on a Singapore Airlines flight in Melbourne's
airport, where dozens of Jewish students gathered to protest what they
said was the government's failure to do more to investigate the
allegations against him. 

He was helped through customs by airport officials, a spokeswoman said,
and ushered away without passing through any public areas. But that did
not deter protesters. ``We're here to prove to that he's not welcome here
in Australia,'' said one demonstrator, Josh Gladwin. 

Latvian-born Kalejs, 86, migrated to Australia after World War II and was
granted citizenship in 1957. He had been living in Britain, but left
Thursday after British authorities launched proceedings to deport him for
alleged wartime atrocities. 

He stands accused of belonging to the Arajs Kommando squad responsible for
the death of 30,000 people, mostly Jews, in Latvia during World War II. He
has denied the allegations and described his accusers as ``liars and
storytellers.'' 

Australian Immigration Minister Philip Ruddock said today that Australian
authorities, who previously investigated Kalejs but did not find enough
evidence to charge him, would reopen their investigation only if new
evidence came to light. 

``You only can investigate evidence and if people believe there is
additional evidence available either here or abroad, the statements can be
put to the Australian Federal Police easily enough,'' Ruddock said. 

Kalejs was deported from the United States in 1994 after U.S. Justice
Department investigations found evidence against him, and returned to
Australia after he was expelled from Canada in 1997. 

He had been living in a retirement home in Leicestershire, central
England, for the past six months. 

Britain has come under fire for not bringing charges against Kalejs, and
Australia has drawn criticism for letting him return. 

British Home Secretary Jack Straw, the country's top law enforcement
official, said Tuesday that police had advisedhim that there wasn't
sufficient proof to detain Kalejs. Deportation efforts started because
Kalejs' presence in Britain was ``not conducive to the public good,'' he
said. 

As Kalejs left London, a former secretary of Britain's parliamentary war
crimes group, Lord Greville Janner, who now heads his nation's UK
Holocaust educational trust, warned that Australia would be condemned
internationally if it did not reopen a war crimes investigation of Kalejs.


``It will cause consternation, dismay and a very great deal of
international anger,'' Janner said in London. 

Latvia said Thursday that it started a criminal investigation of Kalejs
and called for international help in gathering evidence. Latvian
prosecutors would consider requesting Kalejs' extradition if the probe
confirms his guilt, the statement said. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

SEARCH | HOLOCAUST HOME | FILREIS HOME | NEWS | COMMENTS
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Document URL: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Holocaust/suspect.html
Last modified: Friday, 07-Jan-2000 09:13:23 EST 


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:16 EDT 2001
Article: 898524 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Relocate All Jews to Israel
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:31:29 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 29
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In article <3B00B81A.4FB33AD8@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Greg Heinrich wrote:
> 
> > >===== Original Message From billw@goodbye.jews (Bill Walters) =====
> > >This proposal is going to cost us taxpayers some money, but
> > >lord knows the jews have already sucked a huge amount of
> > >money out of Americans.
> >
> > Jews have made a lot of money for the Americans.
> 
> ====================================
> Phillips
> 
> They most certainly HAVE made a lot of money -- for themselves, not for the
> rest of us.
> 
> ======================================================

Wrong. Earnings are taxed by Uncle Sam, with the percent taken in taxes
rising sharply the more you earn. And, if you have money, you invest or
spend it, once again offering Uncla Sam and various other fiefdoms to
tax it.



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:16 EDT 2001
Article: 898540 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: White Nationalism is based on NOTHING
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Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:58:32 +0300
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In article <3B00B610.8321BE14@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Greg Heinrich wrote:
> 
> > I don't get this: what is the possible value of living in a country
> > populated
> > by only one race?
> 
> ===================================================
> Phillips
> 
> The evidence before us suggests that for a country to be homogeneous (or
> nearly
> so) confers great advantages. One of these is a country's ability to function
> as
> a team, unroiled internally by clashes between this group and that group.
> Japan
> stands as a sterling example of this.  I doubt very much that, as a
> multi-cultural society, they could possibly have achieved what they did after
> World War II: to have risen f rom a condition of TOTAL military defeat, poor
> in
> resources, its industries and infrastructure in ruins, surrounded by neighbors
> who hated her- to have risen from these conditions to one of industrial
> superpower. When you understnad these things you will understnad why Japan's
> policy on immigrants is one we would consider harsh. Koreans who have been
> there
> four generations are not citizens; they are "resident aliens."

Japan is not racially homogeneous. The people in Hokkaido, the
northernmost island, are markedly different in build and skin color
>from the people Honshu, the main island, and particularly in Kyushu,
the southernmost island. One reason for this is that many of the people
on Hokkaido have some genetic links to the Ainus, and ancient race that
is the indigenous population of the island. You are mistaking racial
and cultural homogeneity for the chauvinism which has been a part of
Japanese culture ever since the country was forced by United States
gunboat diplomacy to abandon its specific type of National Socialism
and open up to the world.

The Japanese themselves are quite aware of these racial differences
which are the historical consequence of the Japanese people itself
being the result of several waves of invasion from what are now
Siberia, Korea, China, and the East Indies. (See L. Cavalli-Sforza et
al. _The History and Geography of Human Genes_, Princeton Univ. Press,
1994, pg. 229 ff. for detals.)

> 
> Then there is the example of how Nazi Germany, alone of the industrialized
> nations, conquered the problem of mass unemployment. Nazi policies certainly
> helped but I dont' think they are the whole answer. There was also the
> Germans'
> ability to function as a team, something that would not have been possible in
> our own country - not even at that time, far less so today.
> 

Nazi Germany wasn't culturally or racially homogeneous, either. Besides
the tens of thousands of African-Germans, the descendants of a) German
colonists and African women born after 1880 when Germany had African
colonies, b) French colonial soldiers and German women during the
occupation of the Rheinland after 1918, there were also national
minorities (Frisians and Danes in border regions, an ancient pre-German
Slavic minority, itself divided into two groups, the Sorbs, in and
around the city of Bautzen). Even more so than is the case in Japan,
northern and southern Germany are racially and liguistically quite
different: the Saxon ("Low German") language of northern Germany lost
its status as a literary language in the early 1700s, but it continues
to be spoken as the everyday speach in some parts of the north. The
wine-drinking, French-influenced south-west (Rheineland, Hessen,
Saarland, Swabia) has a different culinary culture and lifestyle than
the beer-swilling rest of the country. More than most European
societies, Germany continued before and during the Nazi period to split
along confessional lines, with Catholics and Lutherans practicing
social and economic segregation. 

It should also be mentioned that of all major European languages, with
the possible exception of Italian, German has the greatest degree of
internal dialectal variation. A person from Hamburg or Lübeck speaking
in the type of German which comes most naturally to him/her will not
readily understand a person from Stuttgart, Munich, or Vienna speaking
in their natural form of spoken German.

Nazi policies of solving unemployment involved gigantic, deficit funded
public works projects and phasing some of the most productive people in
the economy out, replacing them with less productive people. From my
own experience working in Germany I would not say that Germans are
particularly good team workers, rather they have an excellent sense of
discipline and hierarchy. One thing that surprised me is the degree to
which beer-drinking on the job is (was, it was 1964) tolerated among
blue-collar workers.


> =====================================

> 
> ===============================================
> phillips
> 
> The process of a nation losing its culture, of losing its sense of what it is,
> is slow, extremely slow almost imperceptibly slow, but it can be inexorable.
> It
> happens in a thousand small ways, none of which individually seems profound at
> the time but, taken as a whole over a span of time, are very much so.
> 
> The process has advanced very far in our own country; it may even turn out to
> be
> irreversible.
> 
> ===========================

It can also be redefined. With the exception of tiny Luxembourg
($32,021) the US ($31,880) has by far the highest GDP/capita on the
globe. Next are tiny Monaco ($25,952), Switzerland ($25,592), Norway
($23,487), and Singapore ($23,003). The US economy (GDP $8,707,310M) is
almost twice as large as its nearest rival, China (GDP $4,515,947M) and
far ahead of Japan's ($2,775,426M). (All statistics from
http://europe.cnn.com/WORLD/global_rankings.)

The United States is also the world's only superpower, a country whose
political, technological, and cultural influence and predominance is a
factor that any other country must take into consideration.

This is more than enough raw material for redefining a nation's culture
and renewing its sense of what it is and isn't. You seem to think that
culture and national identity are static, etched in stone. They aren't.
They are like languages: languages that do not adapt to changing
circumstances atrophy and die. Standard Latin ossified and died, its
more flexible local substandard varieties survive today as Italian,
Spanish, Catalan, French, Portuguese, and Romanian.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:17 EDT 2001
Article: 898546 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Supersedes: <150520011444080368%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:14:44 +0300
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In article <3B00F77B.10DE8435@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:

> > > ===================================
> >
> > It is more than the judge's opinion. He said that it would be absurd to
> > redo the work of two generations of academic scholarship.
> 
> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> It is equally absurd to ignore the huge amount of scholarship that argues tht
> the
> gassings did not happen. 

There is *no* scholarship that argues that the gassings did not happen.
There is pseudo-scholarship like the Leuchter Report, the Rudolf
Report, and some of David Irving's more uncritical pronouncements such
as it takes "colossally higher concentrations of cyanide to kill people
than it does to kill lice". 

Two generations of both academic research and Holocaust-oriented court
trials provide the evidential bedrock upon which the factuality of
gassings is based.

> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> The takings of "judicial notice" were based upon
> what was
> commonly believed. 

No. On the basis of what is accepted as historical fact by the
community of academic historians and other experts on the Holocaust
with scholarly credentials.

When you make statements such as the above you demonstrate how little
knowledge about the issue you really have. You read garbagious
pseudo-scholarship written by people who try to deny the Holocaaust
with arguments such as "6,000,000 Jews couldn't have been killed
because there weren't 6,000,000 Jews in Germany to begin with" and
think that it is something to be taken seriously.

> ================================================
> Phillips
> 
> They completely ignored what was not so commonly known.
> That is
> why no judge is qualified to make such a ruling.
> 
> =============================
> 
> > If I go into a
> > courtroom as an absolute sceptic, I can contest the ability of bullets to
> > kill people. No matter how many people are killed with a bullet, I can
> > still claim various extenuating and other factors. No legal system can
> > function without accepting certain everyday truths
> 
> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> Since bullets hve been successfully killing people for 500 years, it is an
> accepted
> fact. The gassings are claims for which there is no precedent (no, not even
> your T4
> programme). 

You are wrong. There are several precedents.
a. The Americans have been using cyanide to kill people under
controlled conditions since 1920.
b. The Germans had experimented with various poison gasses as a means
of mass murder within the framework of the T4 euthanasia program.
c. The Germans were also the world leaders in the use of cyanide for
fumigation.
d. The Germans had designed Zyklon-B as an agent for using cyanide to
kill vermin in large, enclosed areas such as ships and undustrial
facilties.
e. The ability to use Zyklon-B to kill vermin in large, enclosed areas
properly includes the ability to use Zyklon-B to kill people in large,
enclosed areas.

The gas chambers at Auschwitz and other death camps were just bigger
and better versions of gas chambers used within the framework of the T4
program. Fumigating an entire ship with Zyklon-B involves a much more
complex and dangerous process than exposing 1,500 - 2,000 people packed
into and trapped in a specially designed room to enough Zyklon-B
generated cyanide gas to kill them within a few minutes, yet fumigating
ships was a routine process for the Germans.


> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> They cannot be accepted with proof and the sort of proof that
> would pass
> muster in a court trial.
> 
> =============================

Yes they can, because they have. Time and time again. In country after
country. Even in David Irving's recent trial in Great Britain the issue
was resolved with David Irving not contesting the use of homicidal
gassing by the Nazis.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:17 EDT 2001
Article: 898571 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!opentransit.net!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mindless barn stories
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In article <3b151f83.555806055@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Holman says:
> >There is also the physical evidence of the 1016 graves, at least one
> >photograph of a charred body in Goldhagen's book (with references), and
> >the two monographs that I mentioned previosuly by Diana Gring and Rupert
> >Kaiser.
> 
> 
> Evidently Holman is replying to the post that exposes the Jewish
> site's claim that a Afro-American unit was present at the Gardelegen
> and a alleged captive Haitian spy said he saw charred bodies on fences
> around the barn. There are perhaps ten photos of the victims that show
> none of them to be "charred" and Goldhagen has one of one (1) charred
> body? We see perhaps thirty or forty bodies in the ten photos and none
> of them are charred yet we have Holman telling us about one photo in
> Goldhagen's book that shows one charred body? Holman says Goldhagen
> gives references?

The photo on pg. 369 of Goldhagen's book is of a charred body.

> 
> Even more ridiculous is Holman telling us about the thing in
> Goldhagen's book when in fact the account is the most blatant
> distortion of all the accounts. "Since we were five to six thousand
> people, the wall of the barn collapsed from the pressure of the mass
> of people, and many of us fled. The Germans poured out petrol and set
> the barn on fire.  Several thousand people were burned alive." Here we
> have Holman telling us on the one hand how authoritative the one site
> is that says 1016 and yet in the same breath he tells us about the
> credibility of the account in Goldhagen's book. Not only are the
> numbers way different in Goldhagen's account but none of the walls
> were knocked down as the photos show and the alleged prisoners aren't
> said to have originated from Auschwitz like the account says.

Numbers are dodgy when you are dealing with eye-witness estimates.
Since prisoners were being deathmarched all over Germany, the fact that
these prisoners were most immediately from nearby camps does not mean
that they had not previously been marched from Auschwitz to those and
other intermediate camps. Auschwitz was evacuated in late January, the
Gardelegen massacre took place in mid-April.
 
> As for the "physical evidence" there were 1016 victims we have nothing
> more than a photo of a field of crosses and a few Stars of David. One
> tale tells us that the Germans managed to get some 700 smoldering
> bodies out of the barn and into mass graves and these bodies were
> eventually dug up. Then we have some ten photos or more of the scene
> in the barn and after they were laid outside but we don't have any
> photos of the alleged mass grave. The photos of all the grave markers
> mean nothing. Holman had said before, "The place is marked today by an
> impressive monument and the graves of the 1016 victims". Holman thinks
> that an "impressive"/"monument" is infallible proof there is something
> below. The fact is there are a whole lot of impressive monuments that
> mark the alleged spots where thousands upon thousands of Holocaust
> victims are said to be buried and yet there has not been one little
> thing ever done to show there's anything below.

So, in other words, your theory is that somebody erected 1016 graves, a
memorial, and, eventually, a museum, and has kept all of these in
impeccable condition since 1945; all this just to make the Nazis look
bad...?

> 
> Holman also says there is something that supports his attempts:
> >... and the two monographs that I mentioned previosuly by Diana Gring and
> >Rupert
> >Kaiser.
> 
> And did Holman retrieve this material from the authors and knows what
> they have to say? No. All he did was see their names on the site and
> tell the reader to go check them out without himself knowing what it
> is. Ain't that right Holman? 

And what, pray tell, is wrong with that? Neither book is available in
our local university library (yes, I checked). I said that those who
want further information should consult the two monographs. I don't
know what is in them, but they appear to be the detailed studies of the
massacre which are plugged by the museum which commemorates it, so they
should be worth consulting. I will try to seek them out the next time I
visit Germany. I provided the fax number and working hours of the
museum, so you are welcome to make inquiries there.

As to Goldhagen, his main sources are Shmuel Krakowski, "The Death
Marches in the Period of the Evacuation of the Capmps" in _The Nazi
Concentration Camps: Structure and Aims, The Image of the Prisonser,
The Jews in the Camps_. Jerusalem. Yad Vashem, 1984, and Zygmunt Zonik,
_Anus Belli: Ewakuacja i Wyzwolenie Hitlerowskich Obozów
Koncentracyjnych_. Warsaw. Panstwowe Wydawnictwo Naukawe, 1988.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:17 EDT 2001
Article: 898783 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Mission Statement: U.S. Holocaust Museum
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In article <3B00F77B.10DE8435@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Possibly so, but it WOULD be possible to organize a presidentail commission
> in which
> leading authorities from both sides would present their evidence. 

There _are_ no leading authorities in Holocaust denial. The best man
you had, David Irving, was forced to concede that the Germans used mass
gassings within the T4 euthanasia program, that this served as a
stepping stone to the Action Reinhard camps, where he admits that mass
gassings also occurred, and that mass gassings occurred to at least
some extent at Auschwitz. He also concedes that the primary source for
his sudden and uncritical conclusion that there were no gas chambers at
Auschwitz, the Leuchter Report, was based upon false assumptions and
systematic omissions which crucially undermine anything that Leuchter
claimed about the Auschwitz gas chambers. All of the crucial extracts
>from the judgment in which Irving made these concessions are given
below.

> =========================================
> Phillips
> Each such
> presentation would be subject to the strictest scrutiny and not accepted
> until it
> had past certain tests. Once accepted it would become part of the commission's
> record and would have to be taken into account.
> 
> A presenter might be rigourously cross-examined, put on the stand, as it
> were. In
> the course of this, he would not be permitted any ignoring of a question, any
> evasion, or any obfuscation. Any such attempt on his part would cause him to
> be
> adjudged as unreliable whereupon he would be dismissed from the commission
> and all
> his previous inputs expunged from the record.
> 
> Teh process could easily run to a  year or more.
> 
> -----------------------------------------

Why on earth would something like this be necessary 56 years after the
end of the war?

Massive amounts of testimonial, forensic, physical, and other evidence
has been presented at the thousands of trials that began right after
the war and still continue.

Any perpetrators or victims who are still alive are hardly physically
capable of withstanding cross-examination of the type you envision.
Additionally, they have already had their day in court and decisions
have been made on the basis of the evidence that was presented which
has resulted, in most cases, in the person(s) accused being found to be
guilty as charged (e.g. Eichmann, Jeckeln, Höß, Arâjs, Tschierschky,
Trühe, Besekow, Maywald, Jahnke, Tuchel, Neumann, Hemicker, Tabbert,
Oberwinder, Grauel, Handke, Reiche, Strott, Kuketta, Fahrnach, Krapp,
Michalsky, Ehrlinger, Becu, Scherwitz, Sandberger, Strach, Schröder,
Lohse, Degnhard, Batz, Schiele, Bajârs, Teidemanis, Eichelis, Siljakovs,
etc., etc.), guilty of having withheld crucial information and thus
deportable from the US for having concealed information about
participation in the Holocaust, even if not provably guilty of charges
(e.g. Kalêjs, Linnas), or, in some instances, not guilty (e.g. Münch,
Laipenieks, Sprogis, Demyanyuk, Detlavs).

Given the amount of evidence (increasingly large as new archives are
opened and new mass are graves discovered) and the number of witnesses
(increasingly small as eyewitnesses die off) available today, the best
that could be done would be a repetition of the recent Irving vs.
Lipstadt/Penguin trial in which it was clearly shown that Irving's
arguments were based on "what if" and allegations of forgery at best,
and totally absurd at worst.

Let me remind you that in the light of the evidence presented, David
Irving was forced to backtrack on his once adamantly held claims that
the Nazis did not use poison gas or commit mass gassings. He was forced
to concede that the Holocaust occurred in substantially the manner
claimed by mainstream historians. 

*******************  Portrait of a man drowning  *******************

David Irving admitted that the historical record forces him, and by
extention us, to conclude:

1. That the Nazi policy of using mass-gassings to kill undesirables
originated within the framework of the T4 euthanasia program:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-06-01.html
 

The origins of the use of gas by the Nazi regime

6.68 In order to pinpoint the origins of the Nazi practice of killing
by the administration of poison gas, it is necessary to go back some
years. There was a measure of agreement between the parties that the
Nazis moved from the gassing of the disabled to the gassing of
able-bodied Jews in the period from 1939 to early 1942.

6.69 As Irving accepted, the so-called "euthanasia programme" was
authorised by Hitler in September 1939. It permitted specified doctors
to put to death those suffering from grave mental or physical
disabilities. Thousands were killed, mostly by the administration of
carbon monoxide gas kept in bottles. In addition, however, many were
killed using gas vans which the victims of the programme were induced
to enter, whereupon the exhaust of the vans was pumped inside killing
those inside within 20 minutes or so. The euthanasia programme was
discontinued on Hitler's order in August 1941 because it was causing
public disquiet. 




2. That _systematic and massive_ (cf §6.110) gassing was used within
the Action Reinhard program:

Source: idem
 

6.109 As regards the mass extermination of Jews, Irving accepted that
gas vans were employed to kill Jews at camps in the east. When asked
whether he accepted that at Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec Jews were
killed with gas, Irving answered that, on the basis of evidence
contained in Eichmann's private papers, he accepts that there was
gassing in vans at Chelmno. He said, however, that he has not seen
evidence of the use of gas vans at the other camps. He maintained the
position that this was a very inefficient method of killing. He also
pointed out that there was some disagreement as to the way in which the
poison was administered and whether it was carbon monoxide or some
other form of poison. Irving also queried whether it would have been
feasible to have buried so many corpses.

6.110 But in the end Irving's doubts were no more than academic. For,
despite his original claim that gassing occurred on a limited basis
involving the use of no more that six to eight vans, Irving, in the
light of documents he had seen in the past six months, made a number of
concessions. He did not quarrel with the assertion of Browning that in
a period of about five weeks in 1942 97,000 were killed at Chelmno by
the use of gas vans. Irving suggested that figure may be an
exaggeration but he agreed that was not limited or experimental but
systematic. He further agreed that the evidence established that Jewish
women and children were gassed to death in vans in Semlin, near
Belgrade, in 1942. 

6.111 However, despite his acceptance at an earlier stage of the trial
that the gassing at the Reinhard camps had been systematic and on a
considerable scale, Irving cross-examined Evans on the basis that the
gas vans had been used to kill Jews on a basis which was no more than
experimental. Evans's evidence was that, whilst the vans were used in a
transitional stage only, they were nevertheless used on a large scale.

6.112 As to the specific documents relied on by the Defendants, Irving
agreed that Wetzel's letter of 25 October 1941 was concerned with
liquidating Jews but stressed that, as the Defendants accept, no gas
chambers were in the event constructed in Riga. Irving also noted that
Wetzel was never prosecuted. Browning's explanation is that there is no
evidence he did anything more than propose the construction of gas
chambers.





3. That some gassing (cf. §7.11, 7.14) did indeed take place at
Auschwitz:

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/judgment-07-01.html
 


7.9 The reason why Irving originally adopted that stance was that he
was enormously impressed by a report compiled in 1988 by a Mr Fred
Leuchter, described by Irving as a professional consultant who
routinely advised penitentiaries on electric chair and gas-chamber
execution procedures. His report entitled "An Engineering Report on the
Alleged Execution Gas Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek
Poland" concluded that no gas chambers operated at Auschwitz. Irving
regarded that report as an important historical document and he adopted
its major conclusions. He contended that subsequent tests had
replicated the results obtained by Leuchter.

7.10 At this trial Irving appeared to place less reliance on the
Leuchter report than he had done in his written statement of case. He
advanced a variety of arguments for discrediting the evidence relied on
by the Defendants. He relied heavily on the argument that the roof of
morgue 1 at crematorium 2 (which is where on the Defendants' case in
excess of 500,000 Jews were gassed to death) shows no sign of the
wire-mesh columns through which the Defendants maintain that the gas
was introduced into the chamber below.

7.11 In the course of the trial Irving modified his position: he was
prepared to concede that gassing of human beings had taken place at
Auschwitz but on a limited scale. However, he continued to assert that
it was not a death factory (totesfabrik). He maintained that there is
certainly no question of 500,000 Jews having perished in morgue 1 of
crematorium 2 as the Defendants contend.

7.12 In support of his modified denial that Jews were put to death in
the gas chambers on any significant scale, Irving relied on the fact
that in all the surviving contemporaneous archival and other
documentary records of the Third Reich, there is no reference to the
commissioning, construction or operation of the gas chambers. He
emphasised that amongst the voluminous documentary material relating to
Auschwitz, there is only one document which contains what might be
regarded as a reference to the genocidal use of the crematoria. Irving
argues that the lack of (as he put it) incriminating documents is
extraordinary, if indeed gas chambers were in operation on the scale
alleged by the Defendants.

7.13 Amongst the arguments advanced by Irving in support of his case
that killing by gas took place at the camp on no more than a limited
scale was the fact that the top-secret daily reports sent from the camp
to Berlin in cypher, which purport to record the numbers of inmates,
arrivals and 'departures by any means', including deaths, make no
mention of any inmate having been gassed, although they contain many
references to deaths from illness, by shootings and hangings. The
number of deaths recorded in these reports is far smaller than the
number of those who, on the Defendants' case, lost their lives in the
gas chambers. Moreover, asked Irving, if so many were led to their
deaths in the gas chambers, what has become of the cadavers. Why,
Irving continued, should Eichmann, whose diaries were remarkably frank
in regard to the killing of Jews, omit to mention gas chambers when
recording his visit to Auschwitz in early 1942.

7.14 According to Irving the evidence simply fails to establish that
Jews were killed in gas chambers at Auschwitz on anything approaching
the scale claimed by the Defendants.



7.89 It was put to Irving in cross-examination that the fallacy in the
Leuchter report was his assumption that a far higher concentration of
cyanide, in the region of 3,200 parts per million ("ppm"), would be
required to kill people in the gas chambers than would be required for
the purpose of delousing clothing. In truth, it was suggested to him,
it is the other way round: high levels of cyanide are required for
delousing purposes whereas in the region of 300 ppm will suffice for
the purpose of killing human beings. Irving responded by saying that
this criticism of the Leuchter report has to be "taken on board" and
that "probably concessions have to be made at both ends of this scale".
Irving observed that the report had the desirable consequence of
promoting public debate. He remained adamant that, whatever its flaws,
the crucial conclusion of the Leuchter report, based on the chemical
analysis, was correct. He argued that the chambers were freshly
constructed out of concrete and so would have absorbed the hydrogen
cyanide producing permanent chemical changes to the fabric of the walls
and ceiling. Irving accepted that, if the concentration of cyanide
required for delousing clothes is far higher than the level required to
kill humans, one is more likely to find 40 years residual traces of the
cyanide in the fabric of the delousing chamber than in the fabric of
the supposed gas chambers. But he argued that one would still expect to
find far more traces in the alleged gas chambers than those recorded in
the Leuchter report. 



7.112 For all these reasons, some positive and some negative but all
pointing in the same direction, Irving concluded that his initial
reaction to the Leuchter report was correct: the evidence does not bear
out the claim that gas chambers were operated to liquidate hundreds of
thousands of Jews. The evidence relied on by the Defendants is riddled
with inconsistencies and remains unpersuasive. He accepted that the
cellar at Leichenkeller 1 was used as a gassing cellar but only to
fumigate "objects or cadavers". As to the use of gas to kill humans,
the most he was prepared to concede was that there were gassings "on
some scale" at Auschwitz.




4. That the Leuchter report is based on false assumptions which
invalidate its conclusions (cf. §7.114, 7.115, 7.116):

Source: idem

The Defendants' critique of the Leuchter Report

7.113 The Defendants are highly critical of Irving for having attached
any credence to the Leuchter report. Van Pelt included in his report a
detailed critique of Leuchter, his methodology and his conclusions. His
criticisms echo those contained in a reasoned rebuttal sent to Irving
late in 1989 by a Mr Colin Beer (which at that time Irving acknowledged
had some force). 

7.114 According to both van Pelt and Beer, the fundamental flaw in the
report was Leuchter's assumption that the concentration of cyanide in
the killing chambers would have needed to be greater than the
concentration in the delousing chamber, that is, in the region of 3,200
ppm or higher. According to them that assumption is simply wrong.
Moreover it demolished or at least undermined a number of the reasons
advanced by Leuchter for denying the existence of the killing chambers.
Basing himself on the high concentration of cyanide which he assumed
would have been needed to gas humans, Leuchter had argued that the
ventilation system of the chambers would have been wholly inadequate.
But, say the Defendants, if the concentration required was much lower,
it would follow that the ventilation requirements would be
correspondingly reduced. Irving accepted that this was a logical
conclusion. Similarly Leuchter's argument that the high concentration
of cyanide required to kill humans would have created a high risk of
toxic contamination of the sewers is invalidated if the concentration
required was a fraction of that assumed by Leuchter. Irving again
agreed that this is a logical conclusion. He also agrees that the need
for elaborate safety precautions, also relied on by Leuchter, would be
radically reduced. 

7.115 The Defendants relied on the content of an interview of Dr Roth,
the scientist at the Massachusetts laboratory which carried out the
tests on Leuchter's samples. According to Dr Roth, cyanide produces a
surface reaction which will penetrate no further than one tenth of the
breadth of human hair. The samples with which he was provided by
Leuchter ranged in size between a human thumb and a fist, so they had
to be broken down with a hammer before analysis. Roth asserts that the
resulting dilution of any cyanide traces effectively invalidates the
test results.

7.116 Apart from what the Defendants regard as the fundamentally flawed
assumption by Leuchter about the concentration of cyanide required for
killing purposes, they identified numerous errors of fact in his
report. He wrongly stated that there was no provision for gas-fitted
(that is, sealed) doors and windows in the gas chambers. The walls of
the Leichenkeller were, contrary to what Leuchter claimed, sealed with
a coating of plaster. Leuchter wrongly assumed that there was a mains
sewer. He wrongly stated that there was no exhaust or ventilation
system and that the facilities were damp and unheated. He asserted
unjustifiably that there would have been a risk of death to those
inserting Zyklon-B pellets into the roof vents. Irving accepted the
validity of most of these criticisms of the Leuchter report.

7.117 Basing himself on the arguments which I have rehearsed in
abbreviated form, van Pelt, not mincing his words, dismissed the
Leuchter report as "scientific garbage".




We see here a very hard-headed and egocentric man who made an
uncritical mistake and then refuses to back down, not an honest
historian. Irving's primary justification for rejecting the historical
factuality of mass gassings at Auschwitz was the Leuchter Report, which
he here admits is seriously flawed. He refuses to fully draw the
necessary conclusion that the structures examined by Leuchter were
fully capable of functioning as gas chambers in the manner indicated by
other evidence.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:17 EDT 2001
Article: 899122 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rescue: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:24:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 128
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In article <3B07B79C@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
 wrote:

> >===== Original Message From Johann Sebastian Bot  =====
> >Rescue: U.S. Holocaust Museum
> >
> >Despite the indifference of many Europeans and the collaboration of others
> >in the murder of Jews, thousands risked their lives to help Jews. Rescue of
> >Jews took many forms.
> 
> 
>       Notice how the Holocaust promoters cannot hide their race hatred and 
> bigotry.  Even in a post in which some non Jews are praised for their 
> exceptional acts of bravery and charity, the Holocaust believers must first 
> set their vicious little scene about "indifference" of Europeans. Those who 
> helped Jews are then set out as exceptions to the general rule of European 
> cruelty.  Thus the Holocaust industry feels justified in endlessly repeating 
> those terrible propaganda stories invented by the Allies half-a-century ago.

My favorite "propaganda story" is the one about Raoul Wallenberg.

Source: http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x00/xm0001.html


Raoul Wallenberg (1912 - ? )

Swedish Rescue Operations in Budapest Before Wallenberg's Arrival.

Swedish diplomat who saved the lives of thousands of Jews in Budapest.
On the recommendation of the Swedish branch of the World Jewish
Congress and with the support of the American War Refugee Board, the
Swedish Foreign Ministry, in July 1944, sent Wallenberg to Budapest, in
order to help protect over 200,000 Jews who were left in the Hungarian
capital.

The Swedish legation in Budapest initiated its operation on behalf of
the Jews a short while after the German occupation, on March 19, 1944.
The Swedish foreign minister, Ivar Danielsson, had proposed giving
provisional Swedish passports to Hungarian Jews who had family ties or
commercial connections with Swedish citizens. By the time Wallenberg
arrived in Budapest, several hundred such "protective passports" had
been issued. His arrival, on July 9, 1944, coincided with the stoppage
of the deportations. The protective operation was nevertheless
maintained, and Wallenberg, was put in charge of a section created for
this purpose.


Rescue from Deportations.

The summer of 1944 was relatively quiet, but the calm came to an end on
October 15 when the Arrow Cross party, headed by Ferenc Szlasi, seized
power. The Jews of Budapest now faced mortal danger, both from the
Arrow Cross and from deportations. From that moment on, Wallenberg
displayed his courage and heroism. Over the course of three months he
issued thousands of "protective passports, " which safe-guarded many
Jews.

When Eichmann organized the Death Marches Jews to the Austrian border,
Wallenberg pursued the convoys in his car and secured the release of
bearers of such passports and took them back to Budapest. His
impressive manner enabled him even to remove persons from the trains in
which they were about to be sent to Auschwitz, or to release them from
forced-labor.


The International Ghetto.

The Jews were also in danger of being killed by Arrow Cross men, and to
prevent this, Wallenberg set up special hostels - an operation in which
other diplomatic missions were also involved. There were thirty-one
protected houses, which together formed the "international ghetto, " a
separate entity, quite apart from Budapest's main ghetto. The
management of these houses posed many complicated problems, since it
involved the provision of food as well as sanitation and health
services; as many as six hundred Jewish employees were engaged in this
operation.


Arrest by the Soviets.

Both the "international ghetto" and the main ghetto were situated in
Pest, which was the first part of Budapest to be occupied by the
Soviets. Wallenberg made efforts to negotiate with the Soviets and to
ensure proper care for the liberated Jews. The Soviets were highly
suspicious of the Swedish mission and charged its staff with spying for
the Germans. The large number of Swedish documents in circulation also
raised doubt in their minds. When the Soviets requested him to report
to their army headquarters in Debrecen, Wallenberg went, believing that
he would be protected by his diplomatic immunity. He returned to
Budapest on January 17, 1945, escorted by two Soviet soldiers, and was
overheard saying that he did not know whether he was a guest of the
Soviets or their prisoner. Thereafter, all trace of him, and of his
driver, Vilmos Langfelder, was lost.


Attempts to Learn of Wallenberg's Fate.

In the first few years following Wallenberg's disappearance, the
Soviets claimed that they had no knowledge of him. German prisoners of
war, however, coming back from Soviet imprisonment, testified that they
had met Wallenberg. In the mid - 1950s, on the basis of these accounts,
Sweden submitted a strong demand to the Soviets for information on
Wallenberg, to which the Soviets replied, in 1956, that they had
discovered a report of Wallenberg's death in 1947 in a Soviet prison.
Wallenberg's family did not accept this claim, which conflicted with
other sources.


International Recognition for Wallenberg's Rescue Activities.

As the years went by, public opinion, became increasingly critical of
the manner in which the Swedish government had handled the issue. The
subject of Wallenberg came up time and again. The reports that were
published revealed that in the final days preceding Budapest's
liberation, Wallenberg, with the help of Hungarians and the Zsido
Tanacs (Jewish Council), was able to foil a joint SS and Arrow Cross
plan to blow up the ghettos before the city's impending liberation.
Through this act the only some 100,000 Jews were saved. In recognition
of this rescue action on Wallenberg's part, the United States Congress
awarded him honorary American citizenship. Memorial institutions were
created in his honor, streets were named after him, and films were
produced about his work in Budapest. Wallenberg's name and reputation
as a "righteous among the nations" have become a legend. 



Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:17 EDT 2001
Article: 899159 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Revisionism and Anti-Zionism on the Left
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 16:52:18 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 140
Message-ID: <160520011652188196%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3b1db257.593399001@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> 
> 
> Adam Levenstein replies:
> >All of which combined don't even make a mark compared to the systematic
> >extermination of 12 million people. (I include here non-Jews as well.)
> 
> You say twelve million all together? And the other six million
> non-Jews? We have some hundreds of books that tell us all about the
> alleged Jewish six million. Can you tell us about any (1) book that
> gives us anything about the six million non-Jews? In fact can you give
> us more than one sentence? You see, that's all we ever see about the
> other alleged six million, one sentence saying there were, just like
> the one sentence you give. 


Source: http://wlc.ushmm.org/wlc/article.jsp?ModuleId=10005143

In 1933, the Jewish population of Europe stood at over nine million.
Most European Jews lived in countries that the Third Reich would occupy
or influence during World War II. By 1945, close to two out of every
three European Jews had been killed as part of the "Final Solution",
the Nazi policy to murder the Jews of Europe. Although Jews were the
primary victims of Nazi racism, other victims included tens of
thousands of Roma (Gypsies). At least 200,000 mentally or physically
disabled people were murdered in the Euthanasia Program. As Nazi
tyranny spread across Europe, the Nazis persecuted and murdered
millions of other people. More than three million Soviet prisoners of
war were murdered or died of starvation, disease, neglect, or
maltreatment. The Germans targeted the non-Jewish Polish intelligentsia
for killing, and deported millions of Polish and Soviet citizens for
forced labor in Germany or in occupied Poland. From the earliest years
of the Nazi regime, homosexuals and others deemed to be behaving in a
socially unacceptable way were persecuted. Thousands of political
dissidents (including Communists, Socialists, and trade unionists) and
religious dissidents (such as Jehovah's Witnesses) were also targeted.
Many of these individuals died as a result of incarceration and
maltreatment.    


Source: http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/WW2.html

Invasion: 
On September 1st., 1939, 1.8 million German troops invaded Poland on
three fronts; East Prussia in the north, Germany in the west and
Slovakia in the south. They had 2600 tanks against the Polish 180, and
over 2000 aircraft against the Polish 420. Their "Blitzkrieg" tactics,
coupled with their bombing of defenceless towns and refugees, had never
been seen before and, at first, caught the Poles off-guard. By
September 14th. Warsaw was surrounded. At this stage the poles reacted,
holding off the Germans at Kutno and regrouping behind the Wisla
(Vistula) and Bzura rivers. Although Britain and France declared war on
September 3rd. the Poles received no help - yet it had been agreed that
the Poles should fight a defensive campaign for only 2 weeks during
which time the Allies could get their forces together and attack from
the west. 



The Germans declared their intention of eliminating the Polish race (a
task to be completed by 1975) alongside the Jews. This process of
elimination, the "Holocaust", was carried out systematically. All
members of the "intelligentsia" were hunted down in order to destroy
Polish culture and leadership (many were originally exterminated at
Oswiencim - better known by its German name, Auschwitz). Secret
universities and schools, a "Cultural Underground", were formed (the
penalty for belonging to one was death). In the General-Gouvernement
there were about 100,000 secondary school pupils and over 10,000
university students involved in secret education. 

The Polish Jews were herded into Ghettos where they were slowly starved
and cruelly offered hopes of survival but, in fact, ended up being shot
or gassed. In the end they were transported, alongside non-Jewish
Poles, Gypsies and Soviet POWs, to extermination camps such as
Auschwitz and Treblinka; at Auschwitz over 4 million were exterminated.
2000 concentration camps were built in Poland, which became the major
site of the extermination programme, since this was where most of the
intended victims lived. 

Many non-Jewish Poles were either transported to Germany and used as
slave labour or simply executed. In the cities the Germans would
round-up and kill indiscriminately as a punishment for any underground
or anti-German or pro-Jewish activity. In the countryside they kept
prominent citizens as hostages who would be executed if necessary.
Sometimes they liquidated whole villages; at least 300 villages were
destroyed. Hans Frank said, "If I wanted to put up a poster for every
seven Poles shot, the forests of Poland would not suffice to produce
the paper for such posters." 

Despite such horror the Poles refused to give in or cooperate (there
were no Polish collaborators as in other occupied countries). The
Polish Underground or AK (Armia Krajowa or Home Army) was the largest
in Europe with 400,000 men. The Jewish resistance movement was set up
separately because of the problem of being imprisoned within the
ghettos. Both these organisations caused great damage to the Nazi
military machine. Many non-Jewish Poles saved the lives of thousands of
Jews despite the fact that the penalty, if caught, was death (in fact,
Poland was the only occupied nation where aiding Jews was punishable by
death). 


The Cost: 
The Poles are the people who really lost the war. 

Over half a million fighting men and women, and 6 million civilians (or
22% of the total population) died. About 50% of these were Polish
Christians and 50% were Polish Jews. Approximately 5,384,000, or 89.9%
of Polish war losses (Jews and Gentiles) were the victims of prisons,
death camps, raids, executions, annihilation of ghettos, epidemics,
starvation, excessive work and ill treatment. So many Poles were sent
to concentration camps that virtually every family had someone close to
them who had been tortured or murdered there. 

There were one million war orphans and over half a million invalids. 

The country lost 38% of its national assets (Britain lost 0.8%, France
lost 1.5%). Half the country was swallowed up by the Soviet Union
including the two great cultural centres of Lwow and Wilno. 

Many Poles could not return to the country for which they has fought
because they belonged to the "wrong" political group or came from
eastern Poland and had thus become Soviet citizens. Others were
arrested, tortured and imprisoned by the Soviet authorities for
belonging to the Home Army. 

Although "victors" they were not allowed to partake in victory
celebrations. 

Through fighting "For Our Freedom and Yours" they had exchanged one
master for another and were, for many years to come, treated as "the
enemy" by the very Allies who had betrayed them at Teheran and Yalta. 





Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:18 EDT 2001
Article: 899208 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!skynet.be!news.tele.dk!129.240.148.23!uio.no!newsfeed1.funet.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Revisionism and Anti-Zionism on the Left
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 19:11:54 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 121
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In article <3b2591e4.650637291@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:

> Adam Levenstein announced:
> >> >All of which combined don't even make a mark compared to the systematic
> >> >extermination of 12 million people. (I include here non-Jews as well.)
> 
> Moran revealed: 
> >> You say twelve million all together? And the other six million
> >> non-Jews? We have some hundreds of books that tell us all about the
> >> alleged Jewish six million. Can you tell us about any (1) book that
> >> gives us anything about the six million non-Jews? In fact can you give
> >> us more than one sentence? You see, that's all we ever see about the
> >> other alleged six million, one sentence saying there were, just like
> >> the one sentence you give. 
> 
> 
> Holman submits:
> >Source: http://wlc.ushmm.org/wlc/article.jsp?ModuleId=10005143
> >
> 
> >Source: http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/WW2.html
> >
> 
> Absolutely no documentation for any of it. Only a few pages. Moran had
> said we have hundreds of books about the alleged Jewish loses and none
> for any of the other alleged six million and Holman gives us a few
> undocumented pages from two websites as his example of what he thinks
> constitutes a rebuttal. 

You've got to start somewhere. Do you deny that Poland lost between
5,000,000 and 6,000,000 of its citizens during WW II?

Try  http://mops.uci.agh.edu.pl/~rzepinsk/1939/polonweb.htm  for
various links concerning the Nazi policies and actions within occupied
Poland during WW II.

Recommended books (no, I have not read them, I have, however, read
other books and monographs dealing with Polish history, most recently
D. Dwork and R. van Pelt, _Auschwitz. 1270 to the Present_. My
colleague, an expert on Central European history, recommends for
starters Richard C. Lucas, _Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German
Occupation, 1939 - 1944_, Hippocrene 1986
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0781805287/s
imilarities/107-1789693-0518115).

Other books that deal with the subject include:

Source: http://www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/PolishBooks.html


Poland in World War 2:
Anders, W., An Army in Exile, MacMillan, London 1949

ed. Anders, W., The Crime of Katyn: Facts and Documents, London 1965

Baluk, S, Poles on the Fronts in World War II, Warsaw 1995

Barbarski, Krzysztof, Polish Armour 1939 - 45, Osprey (Vanguard 30)

Bialoszewski, M., A Memoir of the Warsaw Uprising, Northwestern
University Press.

Bielecki, T. & Szymanski, L., Warsaw Aflame: the 1939 - 1945 Years,
Polamrica Press 1973

Cholewczynski, G. F., Poles Apart: The Polish Airborne at the Battle of
Arnhem, Sarpedon N.Y. 1993

Ciechanowski, J.M., The Warsaw Rising, Cambridge.

Deschner, G., Warsaw Rising, Pan/Ballantine.

Garlinski, Jozef, Poland in the Second World War, MacMillan 1985

Glinski, M., Westerplatte, Wydawnictwo Gdanskie, 1998.

Irving, David, Accident: The Death of General Sikorski, William Kimber,
London 1967

Karski, J., Story of a Secret State, London

Klukowski, Zygmunt, Diary From the Years of Occupation, 1939 - 44,
Illinois Press,1993

Komorowski, B., The Secret Army, London.

Korbonski, S., Fighting Warsaw: The Story of the Polish Underground
State, 1939 - 1945, London.

Kurowski, W., After The Battle No. 65: Westerplatte , Plaistow Press
1989.

Kurcz, F. S. (pseud. Skibinski, F.), The Black Brigade , Atlantis
Publishing, London 1943

Lucas, Richard C., Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German
Occupation, 1939 - 1944, Hippocrene 1986

Potyralscy, B.M. & Sakowska, R., The Warsaw Ghetto: 1940 - 1943, Warsaw

Rozek, Edward J., Allied Wartime Diplomacy: A Pattern in Poland, John
Wiley 1958

Sosabowski, Major-General S., Freely I Served, William Kimber, London
1960

Zaloga, S. & Madej, V., The Polish Campaign, 1939, Hippocrene 1991

Zaloga, Steven J., Polish Army 1939 - 45, Osprey (Men-at-arms 117)

Zaloga, Steven J., Blitzkrieg: Armour Camouflage and Markings, 1939 -
1940, Arms & Armour 1990

Zamoyski, Adam, The Forgotten Few, John Murray 1995.

The Warsaw Ghetto No Longer Exists, Orbis Publishing Ltd., 1973.


Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:18 EDT 2001
Article: 899239 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Racism: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Supersedes: <160520012052013276%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 21:02:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B029F56.67138FC1@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> =======================================
> Phillips
> 
> A recent post of mine might help to throw light on this matter.
> 
> "It might help to clarify your thinking if, instead of regarding Communism and
> 
> Capitalism as opposite ends of the spectrum, you begin by recognizing the
> profound SIMILARITIES between them. Both seek in one way or another to
> rationalize society. Both look upon Man as either a unit of production or a
> unit of consumption, but never as a man.
> 
> Communism ended in failure because it remained blind to the most important
> dimensions of man's psychic and moral makeup. I belive that capitalism will
> in time fail for the same reason."
> 
> When we point out (correctly) the strong Jewish bias toward Communism, we must
> keep in mind the role they envision for themselves in a communist society.

Hunh? Some of the most vociferous anti-Communists I have known of have
been Jews, e.g. Allan Bloom [former teacher and associate], Henry
Kissinger, Paul Wolfowitz. All of the most dedicated and orthodox
communists were non-Jews, many of them were outright anti-Semites:
Vladimir Lenin, Josif Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev,
Aleksei Kosygin, Yuri Andropov, Nicolai Ceasescu, Anastas Mikoyan,
Antanas Snieckus, Boris Pugo, Mikhail Suslov, Gus Hall, Angela Davis,
Andrei Gromyko, Mao Zedong, Zho Enlai, Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro, Che
Gueverra, Kim Il Sung, Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker, Alexander
Dubãek, Todor Zhivov, Otto Kuusinen, Hertta Kuusinen, Josip Tito,
Eduard Gierek, Gustav Husak, Enver Hoxha, János Kádár, Konstantin
Chernenko, Mikhail Gorbachev, Raisa Gorbacheva, etc., etc., and that's
just off the top of my head. After the Bolshevik Revolutions in Russia,
Hungary, and parts of Germany after WW I, no Jew was ever in a position
of leadership or influence in any of the more than 20 states with
communist governments that existed.

If you think that your argument has any validity whatsoever, then so
does my counterargument that people of the Caucasian race have been
disproportionately involved in communism and have an evident propensity
to support it. My claim is much more easily verified empirically than
yours.

> do
> they envision themselves as being happy workers on a collective farm? Hardly,
> the very notion of manual labour has always horrified them.

You, a former resident of Israel, do not know what a kibbutz is? What
kind of cognac are you drinking nowadays?

> Do they see
> themselves as happy factory workers, freed from the former tyranny of their
> bosses. Hardly. They envision themselves AS the new bosses and in Russia they
> proved even more tyrannical than the former ones.

Cut the crap. Many Jews were in positions of power immediately after
the Bolshevik Revolution. By 1922, when the Soviet Union was officially
established after a protracted and bloody civil war, the Jews had been
ousted or liquidated, and an anti-clerical, _virulently_ anti-Semitic
government was in power. Name even _one_ Jew, ethnic or confessional,
who had any position of power within the international communist
movement between 1924 when Stalin camer to power and Trotsky was
marginalized, and 1991, when the USSR and Eastern Block collapsed.
Iwean that Maxim Litvinov, Soviet Commissar for Foreign Affairs during
the early 1930s, is the only name you are going to come up with.

> 
> There was a joke about this circulating in Stalin's day. There were three
> workers at a factory. One was chronically early, the second was chronically
> late, the third always arrived precisely on time. All three were sent to the
> Gulag. The charges, repectively:
> 
> --toadyism,
> 
> --sabotage,
> 
> --a formalistic, bureaucratic approach.
> 
> ================================================

This is a _Jewish_ joke? I much prefer the one about the Jew who wanted
to emigrate to Israel during the Brezhnev period. Called down to the
KGB to be interrogated, he was grilled by the senior KGB officer about
why he would want to leave the USSR.

KGB-nik: Here in the USSR you have access to free medical care.
Jew: Can't complain.
KGB-nik: AS much education as you can absorb is also available to you -
free.
Jew: Can't complain.
KGB-nik: Let's be frank about this. With such benefits, why do you want
to emigrate?
Jew: Can't complain.

*****************************************************

Does the fact that a Jew, known in his time as Jesus, King of the Jews,
later as Jesus Christ, "created" Christianity make Christianity Jewish?

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:18 EDT 2001
Article: 899265 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!diablo.netcom.net.uk!netcom.net.uk!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mindless barn stories
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:16:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <160520012216499269%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3b19501b.568247609@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:


> Holman admits Moran was right when he said Holman didn't know what the
> sources had to say:
> >And what, pray tell, is wrong with that? Neither book is available in
> >our local university library (yes, I checked). I said that those who
> >want further information should consult the two monographs. I don't
> >know what is in them, but they appear to be the detailed studies of the
> >massacre which are plugged by the museum which commemorates it, so they
> >should be worth consulting. I will try to seek them out the next time I
> >visit Germany. I provided the fax number and working hours of the
> >museum, so you are welcome to make inquiries there.
> 
> The fact is Holman, you cited the sources in an attempt at having the
> reader think they had something that would support your position when
> in fact you had and have no idea what they say.

Wrong. 1016 victims is extremely small potatoes as far as the Holocaust
is concerned. The two monographs in question are publications in a
research series associated with the Gardelegen Museum and Memorial
Site. Although I have not had the opportunity to read them, I know
enough about research and academic publishing to strongly suspect that
the foundation which supports the museum and underwrites the
publication of monographs dealing with the atrocity which the museum
commemorates are going to be mutually supportive. I don't have to have
read a book to be able to make an educated guess as to what and what
not it is likely to contain. As I suggested, consult the two monographs
for more detailed information about the massacre.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:19 EDT 2001
Article: 899273 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Racism: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:34:42 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 20
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In article <3B02C438.118BC064@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> >
> > Does the fact that a Jew, known in his time as Jesus, King of the Jews,
> > later as Jesus Christ, "created" Christianity make Christianity Jewish?
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> We could say it makes Christianity to some degree Jewish in its origins, though not
> in its subsequent evolution. It was bitterly hated by the Jewish Establishment.
> 
> =====================

The same holds true, mutatis mutandis, for communism/Marxism.

Best,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:19 EDT 2001
Article: 899274 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Racism: U.S. Holocaust Museum
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:32:07 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 152
Message-ID: <160520012232074506%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B02C438.118BC064@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman wrote:
> 
> > In article <3B029F56.67138FC1@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > =======================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > A recent post of mine might help to throw light on this matter.
> > >
> > > "It might help to clarify your thinking if, instead of regarding
> > > Communism and
> > >
> > > Capitalism as opposite ends of the spectrum, you begin by recognizing the
> > > profound SIMILARITIES between them. Both seek in one way or another to
> > > rationalize society. Both look upon Man as either a unit of production or
> > > a
> > > unit of consumption, but never as a man.
> > >
> > > Communism ended in failure because it remained blind to the most important
> > > dimensions of man's psychic and moral makeup. I belive that capitalism
> > > will
> > > in time fail for the same reason."
> > >
> > > When we point out (correctly) the strong Jewish bias toward Communism, we
> > > must
> > > keep in mind the role they envision for themselves in a communist society.
> >
> > Hunh? Some of the most vociferous anti-Communists I have known of have
> > been Jews, e.g. Allan Bloom [former teacher and associate], Henry
> > Kissinger, Paul Wolfowitz. All of the most dedicated and orthodox
> > communists were non-Jews, many of them were outright anti-Semites:
> > Vladimir Lenin, Josif Stalin, Nikita Khrushchev, Leonid Brezhnev,
> > Aleksei Kosygin, Yuri Andropov, Nicolai Ceasescu, Anastas Mikoyan,
> > Antanas Snieckus, Boris Pugo, Mikhail Suslov, Gus Hall, Angela Davis,
> > Andrei Gromyko, Mao Zedong, Zho Enlai, Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro, Che
> > Gueverra, Kim Il Sung, Walter Ulbricht, Erich Honecker, Alexander
> > Dubãek, Todor Zhivov, Otto Kuusinen, Hertta Kuusinen, Josip Tito,
> > Eduard Gierek, Gustav Husak, Enver Hoxha, János Kádár, Konstantin
> > Chernenko, Mikhail Gorbachev, Raisa Gorbacheva, etc., etc., and that's
> > just off the top of my head. After the Bolshevik Revolutions in Russia,
> > Hungary, and parts of Germany after WW I, no Jew was ever in a position
> > of leadership or influence in any of the more than 20 states with
> > communist governments that existed.
> >
> > If you think that your argument has any validity whatsoever, then so
> > does my counterargument that people of the Caucasian race have been
> > disproportionately involved in communism and have an evident propensity
> > to support it. My claim is much more easily verified empirically than
> > yours.
> >
> > > do
> > > they envision themselves as being happy workers on a collective farm?
> > > Hardly,
> > > the very notion of manual labour has always horrified them.
> >
> > You, a former resident of Israel, do not know what a kibbutz is? What
> > kind of cognac are you drinking nowadays?
> 
> =====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> Valid question.  One of the foremost goals and issues with early Zionism WAS
> to get
> the Jews to hell out of their pawnshops and counting houses and get them back
> to
> working the land. Several Zionist writers had commented on how Jews had been
> psychically deformed by their long separation from land.
> 
> When they began coming to Israel this goal, no matter how worthy the intent,
> caused
> problems with the indigenous Arabs. A scenario which I imagine happened many
> times
> was when the Jews bought a chunk of agricultural land from the Arab or Turkish
> owners and, determined to get their fellow Jews to performing honest labour,
> dismissed the Arab workers with a sanctimonious: "Go, it is wrong for us to
> exploit
> you" with the Arab futilely protesting: " Mister, I have a wife and kids.
> PLEASE,
> exploit me." Not a good way to convince locals that the two peoples can live
> together peacefully.
> 
> One of the stories that keeps popping up (and one the Jews wish dearly they
> could
> suppress) is that, during World War II, the Zionist leaders had no
> overwhelming wish
> to save every Jew they possibly could save but only those who looked like
> promising
> material for the coming Jewish state. Burly manual workers were most welcome;
> pawnbrokers, violinists, and skinny intellectuals much less so.
> 
> Do I know what a kibbutz is. I should; I spent nearly a month on one. When
> harvest
> time comes, the authorities do everything they possibly can to scrounge
> harvest
> labour. Schoolchildren, low-level civil servants. A favourite target are the
> fat-cat
> American tourists living high-off-the-hog in their fat-cat 4-star hotels. (The
> locals have no great love for them) They are shamed into getting the hell off
> their
> fat-cat, 4-star American asses and doing something useful. It works becasue
> Jews are
> easily made to feel guilty.
> 
> I had been living for a couple of months in the Immigrant Absorbtion Centre in
> Haifa. One day the manager (a retired Army colonel) came around and asked if
> anyone
> wanted to go to a Kibbutz. (He, also, was scrounging for harvest labour.) I
> was by
> then so bored out of my mind that my hand went up  - as did several others.
> 
> So they packed us into a bus and off we went, and we went, and we went utnil
> I began
> wondering just WHERE were they taking us. It turned out to be a kibbutz just
> at the
> Jordanian border near the town of Bet Shean. We got out of the bus and were
> greeted
> by a non-Jewish Dutchman named Peter who, speaking perfect English, began
> regaling
> us in the most dead-panned matter-of-fact way about the various sizes of
> mortars, 82
> mm, 105mm, guerillas chronically fired at the place and, in each case, the
> amoutn of
> time you have to dive into a ditch. ALso, he warned us NEVER to be seen near
> the
> gate at night; the guards will SHOOT.
> 
> Well, thought I: In for a penny; in for a pound. Phillips, didn't anyone ever
> tell
> you never to volunteer.
> 
> The Kibbutz girls promise much but deliver very little. I didn't feel I was
> getting
> my "fair share."
> 
> Brandy: Oh I had it, indeed had too much of it. There is a local brew called
> 777; it
> would make excellent lighter fluid. The good imported stuff, Hennessey,
> Courvoisier,
> Remy Martin, is VERY pricey and regarded as a prestige drink - not for a
> humble and
> impecunious immigrant like Phillips.
> 
> ==========================================================

Richard, all is forgiven. Thanks for this wonderful vigette!

Best,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:19 EDT 2001
Article: 899548 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Revisionism and Anti-Zionism on the Left
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:16:15 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3b2b2180.687407076@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:


> No, I've never heard of the alleged 5 to 6 million. Are you saying
> that number on top of the 3 million alleged Jewish loses? You say 5 or
> 6 million? 

Most authorities estimate Poland's WW II losses as being between
5,300,000 and 6,000,000, split about 50/50 between Jews and non-Jews.


> Well, we have all the 'details' of the alleged Jewish loses
> but are we to think any of the books you cite tell us about the
> non-Jewish loses in the same manner as we see in Jewish Holocaust
> narrations. The only thing you did is to go out and search under say
> 'Polish'/'WWII'/whatever and came up with such titles as -
> 
> The Crime of Katyn: Facts and Documents, London 1965

15,000 Polish officers were killed there by the Soviets. That is a part
of the 5 to 6 million Polish WW II losses.

> Poles on the Fronts in World War II, Warsaw 1995

The Poles were attacked from both sides, and both the Nazis and the
Soviets killed Polish soldiers and non-combattants.  That is a part of
the 5 to 6 million Polish WW II losses.

> 
> Polish Armour 1939 - 45, 

Poland was completely unprepared for war in 1939, and it had to acquire
tanks, armor, and other equipment very quickly. Lack of proper armor
and military unpreparedness were factors resulting in Polish civilian
and military casualties.  That is a part of the 5 to 6 million Polish
WW II losses.

> 
> A Memoir of the Warsaw Uprising

The Warsaw ghetto uprising resulted in the death of more than 100,000
inhabitants of that ghetto.  That is a part of the 5 to 6 million
Polish WW II losses.

> 
> Warsaw Aflame: the 1939 - 1945 Years,

Warsaw was almost erased from the map as a part of German policy.
Hundreds of thousands of inhabitants of the city were killed as a
consequence of Germany's scorched earth and genocidal policies.  That
is a part of the 5 to 6 million Polish WW II losses.

> 
> Poles Apart: The Polish Airborne at the Battle of
> 
> The Warsaw Rising, 
> 
> We can suspect anything to do with "Warsaw Uprising" deals with Jews
> and not goyim Poles and stuff like "Polish Armour" wouldn't give us
> too much on the alleged other non-Jew 2 to 3 million you say lost
> their lives. 
> 
> What, you think all you have to do is list as many books as you can
> find even though they have nothing to do with whatever you're trying
> to say? What, you think you can overwhelm with the sheer number of
> titles? The reader of your crap should say to themselves, 'Oh look, a
> whole bunch of titles, Holman must be right'?

No, fool. I make no claim to being an expert on Polish history. When
one wants to find out about something one doesn't know, one usually
starts by compiling a working bibliography. I went to a website devoted
to Polish history which is maintained by Poles in Poland and downloaded
the bibliography on Poland and WW II given there as a starting point
for finding out about Polish WW II losses. That is the way one normally
begins to conduct research in an unfamiliar area.

> You're about as stupid as one can get Holman. The public may be stupid
> but only a few would be as stupid as you are.

Coming from you, that's a compliment. How, pray tell, do _you_ do
research? What's your estmate of Polish WW II losses and how do you
acquire your information if you don't find and read books dealing with
the topic?

Go to  http://isuisse.ifrance.com/polishclaims/ to read about Polish WW
II losses from another perspective.

No regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:19 EDT 2001
Article: 899567 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!194.255.56.67!newsfeed101.telia.com!newsrouter.euroconnect.net!news.clinet.fi!news.cs.hut.fi!newsfeed2.funet.fi!newsfeeds.funet.fi!news.helsinki.fi!holman
From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Crime and "Skin Color" (was White Nationalism is based on NOTHING)
Supersedes: <170520011148471025%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:15:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 269
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In article <3b0362fa$0$191@news.impulse.net>, Waldo
 wrote:



> From:
> 
> http://www.melvig.org/files/100/100facts.html
> 
> (You'd do well to read the entire article, which is fully referenced)
> 
> (Begin Quote)
> 
> _____________________________________
> 
> The hair is black, crispy, and "woolly" in texture, it is flat and
> elliptical with no central canal or duct like the hair of Europeans.
> The nose is thick, broad and flat, often turned up nostrils exposing the red
> inner lining of the mucous membrane similar to an ape.
> 
> The arms and legs of the Negro are relatively longer than the European.
> 
> The humerus is a trifle shorter and the forearm longer thereby approximating
> the simian form.
> 
> The eyes are prominent, iris black and the orbits large.
> 
> The eye often has a yellowish sclerotic coat over it like that of a gorilla.
> 
> The Negro has a shorter trunk the cross-section of the chest is more
> circular than whites.
> 
> The pelvis is narrower and longer as it is in an ape.
> 
> The mouth is wide with very thick, large and protruding lips.
> 
> Negro skin has a thick superficial horny layer which resists scratching and
> impedes the penetration of germs.
> 
> The Negro has a larger and shorter neck akin to that of anthropoids.
> 
> The cranial sutures are more simple than in the white type and close
> together earlier.
> 
> The ears are roundish, rather small, standing somewhat high and detached
> thus approaching the simian form.
> 
> The Negro is more powerfully developed from the pelvis down and the white
> more powerfully developed in the chest.
> 
> The jaw is larger and stronger and protrudes outward which, along with lower
> retreating forehead, gives a facial angle of 68
> to 70 degrees as opposed to a facial angle of 80 to 82 degrees for
> Europeans.
> 
> The hands and fingers are proportionally narrower and longer.
> 
> The wrist and ankles are shorter and more robust.
> 
> The frontal and paricial bones of the cranium are less excavated and less
> capacious.
> 
> The skull is thicker especially on the sides.
> 
> The brain of the Negro on the average is 9 to 20% smaller than whites.
> 
> The teeth are larger and are wider apart than in the white race.
> 
> The three curvatures of the spine are less pronounced in the Negro than in
> the white and thus more characteristic of an ape.
> 
> The femur of the Negro is less oblique, the tibia (shin bone) more curved
> and bent forward, the calf of the leg high and but little developed.
> 
> The heel is broad and projecting, the foot long and broad but slightly
> arched causing flat soles, the great toe is shorter than in the white.
> 
> The two bones proper of the nose are occasionally united, as in apes.
> 
> ___________________________________
> 
> (End quote)
> 
> Bear in mind that "Blacks" found in the US and other Western countries are
> largely mixed with White blood, and therefor have changed drastically from
> their African counterparts.

There is no "ideal" Negro, as your cite would have us believe, and 
more than the blond-haired, blue-eyed Nordic, a minority among
Caucasians, is an "ideal" white. For this reason your "facts" are
specious.

 
> Were scientists to be freed from the bounds of guilt and political
> correctness, and scrutinize humans as they do other life forms, they would
> undoubtedly count Blacks as an entirely different species, and possibly a
> separate genus.

You just stated above that the "Blacks found in the US and other
Western countries are largely mixed with White blood", indeed, so much
so that many have more White than African blood, since race in American
society is defined negatively: even a person who is 1/16 of African
descent is generally regarded as "black". In the American South of the
pre-civil rights era a person with any known African ancestry was
regarded as "black" (the "one drop rule").

If this is the case, then your "facts" are totally irrelevant to the
American situation. As to different species and genera, the fact that
the "Blacks found in the US and other Western countries are largely
mixed with White blood" proves that the two groups - races if you will
- can produce viable offspring, thus refuting your specious claim.

> 
> As was demonstrated by the statistics I posted . . . (the bulk of which you
> conveniently snipped) . . . but as these statistics clearly showed, poverty
> does NOT account for vast gulf of criminality demonstrated by Blacks as
> compared to Whites, does it?

If blacks have a racial disposition to criminal behavior, how do you
account for the facts that the jails of Europe are full of White
criminals, and that virtually all-White Russia has crime rates,
including murder rates, topping that of the USA? If I understand your
theory correctly, the branch of the White race living in Russia must
also have a racial disposition towards criminality.

Source: http://freeserbia.net/Articles/1999/Murder.html



April 30, 1999

In Russia, Murder Rate Soars as Country Plummets


MOSCOW (AP) -- Police Maj. Vladimir Kanunnikov patrols a working-class
neighborhood in northern Moscow, preaching the virtues of strong
families and keeping tabs on criminals and troublemakers he calls
"parasites."

If a card game explodes in a brawl, or neighbors in a communal
apartment square off with frying pans or knives, Kanunnikov answers the
alarm.

And then there are the telephone calls that start "Someone's going to
get killed, either him or me," Kanunnikov said, describing the marital
violence he tries to mediate before it explodes into murder.

Russia has become a world leader in homicide, chalking up close to
three times more murders per capita each year than the United States,
five times more than France, and seven times more than Germany. Only a
handful of countries, including Colombia, outstrip Russia, although
there are no exact global figures.

The soaring murder rate is part of a broader explosion of crime in
Russia. The country's economic slide is partly to blame; so are the
opportunities opened by economic reforms. There are more and better
cars to steal, more and wealthier customers for prostitutes, more and
pricier properties to fight over.

Jobs, education and technical training -- to say nothing of salaries,
pensions and other social support -- are no longer guaranteed. Laws and
policing have weakened, drug use has soared and corruption is rampant.

"There's been a massive catastrophe of values, a loss of goals," said
Igor Arshinov, a psychologist at Moscow's Institute of Neuroses.
"Earlier, society was building communism. People knew it was idiotic,
but on some level they still bought into it."

The country's murder rate doubled between 1990, the first year official
nationwide murder figures were published, and 1994, when the level of
murders and murder attempts reached 32,286. The next year, it began a
three-year dip nationwide, but resumed its rise again last year, to
reach about 29,550, according to the Interior Ministry.

The contract hits and gangland wars that fill Russian newspaper columns
and television screens account for just a fraction of the murder toll.
In 1998, about 43 percent of murders took place in private, up from 35
percent a decade earlier, the Interior Minister said. According to the
Russian Criminological Institute, which works with unpublished data,
such murders have always been in the majority, comprising 60 percent of
the whole.

These murders are committed by neighbors, drinking buddies, husbands,
wives and children -- not gangsters.

The Interior Ministry lumps them all in the category of "crimes
committed against the background of everyday life." There are no
separate statistics on domestic violence; women's rights advocates say
that reflects what a low priority it is for law enforcement agencies.

"Many people here don't accept that domestic violence is a crime. In
our society, it's considered the norm," said Elena Potapova, the
telephone hotline coordinator for Moscow's No to Violence women's
crisis center.

A U.S.-Russian study published in 1997 showed that 1.7 times more
Russians than Americans are killed by their spouses, and that Russian
women are 2 1/2 times more likely than American women to be killed by
husbands.

Two factors of Russian life have consistently kept the level of
everyday murders high. The first is alcohol abuse, which Moscow police
say is involved in four-fifths of everyday murders. If alcoholism was
checked somewhat in Soviet times, now it faces practically no
constraints.

"Alcoholism has always been our national habit, but now there are
absolutely no limitations on when you can get hold of liquor or how
much you can drink," Arshinov said.

The second factor is Russia's chronic housing shortage: People cannot
afford to move out of trouble's way, and the country's economic decline
has put unprecedented pressure on families.

"Divorced couples continue to live in the same apartment, and so do all
the generations, with old people, children, grandchildren, and new
daughters-in-law," said Masha Mukhova of the Sisters crisis center in
Moscow.

"There's no exit. The situation itself provokes violence."

The burden of preventing everyday violence falls on policemen like
Kanunnikov. The clean-cut 44-year-old sits at his desk ramrod-straight,
like a soldier, but slides easily into conversation like an old
neighbor.

He says the job was easier in Soviet times, when there was a range of
disciplinary institutions, from mandatory alcoholism treatment centers
to so-called comrades' courts.

"Then it was decided that these weren't democratic institutions, so
they were abolished and everything fell on police shoulders: We're the
comrade court, the priest and the psychotherapist who have to persuade
people to live like human beings," Kanunnikov said.

He and the women's crisis center staff say they have increasingly few
legal tools at their disposal to punish violent offenders. As long as
there's no place for victims to take shelter, the violence will
continue to take a heavy toll.

"It's practically impossible to solve this problem in the near future,
because it requires a very serious government program in which one of
the priorities would be municipal housing for victims of domestic
violence," Potapova said.


I'm going to use your statistical methods to prove a point.

Russia, with a population of approximately 146,200,000, has, according
to the above article, roughly 30,000 murders per year, while the US,
with a population of 273,130,000 has about 17,000 murders per year.
Thus 1 out of every 4900 Russians, and one out of 16,000 Americans is a
murderer (assuming 1 murder per murderer). According to the statistics
you posted, 33.5% of the 16,914 murders committed in the US in 1998 -
roughly 5670 - were committed by Blacks. Assuming a Black US population
of 13%, that means 35,500,000, or 1 out of 6261 Blacks is a murderer.

A Russian is thus about 27% more likely than an American Black to
commit a murder, thus revealing the clear predisposition towards
criminality among the White race, Russia being a close to 100% White
country.

QED

Regards,
Eugene Holman

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Mark Twain


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:20 EDT 2001
Article: 899642 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionists - how much of the Holocaust history do you believe?
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:14:53 +0300
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In article <20010517092303.01285.00000137@ng-fb1.aol.com>, Joseph
Boegler  wrote:

>
> Thanks Albrecht.  It sounds better in the original German.
> 
> So you think that Hitler publicly announced several times
> that he was going to KILL all the Jews and America:

He did indeed make such public pronouncements, in his well known early
pronouncement in 1922:

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/hitler-1922.html

""Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the
annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will
have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example
- as many as traffic allows. 

"Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain
hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the
principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the
next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last
Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit,
precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely
cleansed of Jews." (1) 


1. Josef Hell, "Aufzeichnung," 1922, ZS 640, p. 5, Institute fuer
Zeitgeschichte. The retired Major Josef Hell was a journalist in the
twenties and in the beginning of the thirties, during which time he
also collaborated with Dr. Fritz Gerlich, the editor of the weekly
newspaper Der Gerade Weg, as cited in Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the
Final Solution. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1984. p. 17 

in _Mein Kampf_, and in increasingly agressive speeches made after the
beginning of the Polish war in 1939.

> which 
> had the largest Jewish population in the world at that time,
> didn't declare war on Germany? 

Because the Jews were not in a position, nor should they have been, to
force their concerns on the foreign policy establishment.


> There were Jews from 
> Palestine who parachuted into the battlefields of Europe
> to fight as partisans, including some women.  Why didn't 
> American Jews parachute in and try to kill Hitler long
> before the war started?  

Because of the existence of diplomacy.

> Why was the American Jewish 
> leader, Steven Wise, meeting with the Nazis in Switzerland
> to discuss their mutual plan to send the Jews to Palestine?
> Why did Hitler set up farms where the young German Jews
> could learn agriculture?  Why did they set up workshops
> where the Jews could learn crafts?  Why did Adolf Eichmann
> and other Nazi leaders go to Palestine to make arrangements
> for sending the Jews there?  

Because plans and priorities change as situations change and
opportunities arise. Up until 1939 Germany's policy was to marginalize
Jews in the hope that they would emigrate. Since Germany had the policy
of stripping would-be emigrees of their savings and assets before they
left the countries, few countries were interested in taking in
thousands upon thousands of penniless refugees. Assuming that Gemrany
was bona fide - and that's giving them one hell of a benefit of the
doubt - the least it could have done would have been to help develop a
Jewish homeland in what was then the Britich controlled and already
well populated mandate of Palestine.

By late 1939 Germany was planning a war of conquest to the east, but
this quickly got them entangled in a war on their western flank as
well, requiring that, in addition to occupying Poland, they had to
occupy France, the Low countries, Denmark, and Norway to prevent those
pro-British countries from providing Britain, which was in an alliance
with Poland and thus drawn into a shooting war with Germany, from
gaining allies or a staging ground for an attack. Thus suddenly meant
that the number of Jews living in German occupied territory was
increased by a factor of ten. The possibility of Jewish emigration was
effectively cut off, because that dependended on no longer possible
German-British cooperation, and with most of western Europe under its
control, there was nowehere to send Jews but eastwards.

When Germany attacked the USSR on June 22, 1941, it intended to seize a
large part of that country at great sacrifice as _Lebensraum_ for its
own, German, population. It would have been absurd to fight against
such a formidable enemy just to acquire territory for Jewish
resettlement. Since Nazi Germany by this time had already shown that it
had no moral scruples about eliminating unwanted elements of its
population by mass murder - some 100,000 Germans had been exterminated
within the framework of the T4 euthanasia program by this time - it
doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they had little difficulty
applying the exterminationist option to Jews under their control as
well. From June 22, 1941 until early January, 1942, Jews in the war
area are routinely murdered by the Einsatzkommandos and Security
Police. On December 8, 1941, on the other hand, the first pilot
extermination camp, Chelmno, opened for business and began to receive
regular shipments of Jews and Gypsies. By spring, 1942,
Ausvhwitz-Birkenau, Majdankek, and Belzec were also implementing
extermination operations, with Sobibor and Treblinka following soon
after.

Since the war against the USSR did not proceed as planned, a conflict
arose within the middle and higher levels of the Nazi government. One
faction, headed by Heydrich and then, after his death, by Eichmann, was
interested in killing as many Jews as quickly as possible. The other
one, headed by Pohl, was interested in extracting as much economic
benefit from the concentration camps as possible. The post-1942 history
of the Holocaust is very much determined by tension between those who
want to concentrate on dedicated killing, and those who want to make
the concentration camps income generating entities, with killing being
the eventual consequence of overwork, starvation, the horrid
conditions, and abuse. Many seeming contradictions of the Holocaust can
be understood in terms of the two factions playing each other off.

> There is no question whatsoever
> that the Nazis and the Zionists were working together.  Why
> would they be doing this if Hitler was publicly proclaiming that
> he was going to KILL all the Jews?

Because governments usually work with several options at a time.
Hitler's proclamations appealed to a certain element within the German
population. On the other hand he realized that he could not be the kind
of influential statesmen in the world he desired to be if he had the
blood of Germany's - not to mention Europe's - Jews on his hands. For
all practical purposes, any cooperation between the Nazis and the
Palestinian administration ended in September 1939 when britain
declared war on Gemrany consequent to its invasion of Poland. That
scotched any plans for German Jews to emigrate to Palestine, but it
dropped more than 3,000,000 Polish Jews into Germany's lap.

> 
> Why did both Hitler and Himmler use the word ausrotten 
> in the context of "getting rid of" in reference to such things
> as Marxism?  

Because the meaning of many verbs changes, depending upon wheter their
direct object is [+animate] or [-animate]:

1. I'm going to kill that bird.
2. I'm going to kill that man.
3. I'm going to kill that file.
4. I'm going to kill some time.

In sentences 1 and 2 'kill X' means 'cause the death of X'. In
sentences 3 and 4 it has different meanings. Consider now:

5. They liquidated the ghetto.
6. They liquidated the inhabitants of the ghetto.
7. They liquidated the mafia.

Sentence 5 means that the ghetto was emptied and destroyed, it ceased
to exist. Sentence 6, on the other hand, means that the people who had
inhabited the ghetto were destroyed: they ceased to exist because they
were killed. Sentence 7 is ambiguous. It could mean that the existence
of mafia as a criminal organization [-animate] was ended by somehow
compromising its ability to further exist, or it could mean that the
existence of the group of individuals [+animate] comprising the mafia
was ended.

> Was Hitler saying that he wanted to KILL 
> Marxism?

No. He was saying that he wanted to terminate the existence of Marxism,
which, as an ideology and theory of socio-economic organization, is
[-animate]. Of course part of this work would require killing off the
people, Marxists [+animate], who somehow supported or spread it.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:20 EDT 2001
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Revisionism and Anti-Zionism on the Left
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 19:31:22 +0300
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In article <3b2ed429.733150177@news.pacificnet.net>, tom moran
 wrote:


> 
> Holman showed up to try and show there are books galore that would
> document the other alleged 6 million non-Jewish victims of the alleged
> German program for mass extermination. Moran challenged Levenstein to
> come up with just one (1) book to show any of his proclamation had any
> foundation. Holman popped up with an array of books that have nothing
> to do with it.

I also mentioned that one among them, specifically, Richard C. Lucas,
_Forgotten Holocaust: The Poles Under German
Occupation, 1939 - 1944_, Hippocrene 1986
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0781805287/s
imilarities/107-1789693-0518115).

is regarded as a starting point for people looking into this chapter of
history:

Source: ibid

(Readers' reviews of the book.)


 
 Not what I expected, February 19, 2001 
Reviewer: Roberto Muhlenkamp from Lisboa Portugal
If you were tempted into buying the book by its title, expecting to
find detailed information about Nazi policies against the Polish
gentile population and its suffering and dying, you will be badly
disappointed. Only the first chapter, entitled "The German Occupation
of Poland", which makes up a full 39 of the 219 pages of the book's
main part, deals with the subject matter of the books title, The
Forgotten Holocaust. Although it addresses every realm of Nazi
brutality, from the executions of members of the "intelligentsia" over
mass expulsions and deportations to the concentration camps, the reader
still doesn't know at the end of it how all the horrors described add
up to the horrendous death toll of the Polish Gentile population (out
of 5,384,000 victims of prisons, death camps, raids, executions,
annihilation of ghettoes, epidemics, starvation, excessive work and ill
treatment, 2.9 to 3.2 million were Jews and the rest were Gentiles).
Such a detailed breakdown is essential information that a book entitled
"The Forgotten Holocaust" should absolutely contain. Instead of
providing it, Lucas leaves the reader with the single reference in the
notes to this chapter (no. 174) that "Most informed estimates place the
loss of Polish Christians at 2.8 to 3.1 million and Polish Jews at 2.9
to 3.1 million". He then dedicates five chapters to "The Polish
Government and the Origins of the Underground", "The Military
Underground in Operation", "Civilian Resistance and Collaboration",
"Poles and Jews" and "The Polish Government, the Home Army and the
Jews". Chapters five and six have a certain relevance because they do
away with the myth that the Poles were mostly collaborators of the
Nazis in the killing of the Jews or grinning bystanders. As for the
other three: Is this a book about Polish suffering under Nazi
occupation, or a book about the organisation, politics and activities
of the Polish underground? Chapter seven contains an account of the
Warsaw Uprising, the repression of which was the greatest single Nazi
atrocity of the war - certainly gripping, but I read a better account
of that tragedy in Earl F. Ziemke's "The Soviet Juggernaut" edited by
Time-Life Books in 1980. The book is written in a thoroughly pro-Polish
stance, which is certainly justified but becomes irritating at times,
to say the least. The statement that angered me most in that respect is
found on page 93 in Chapter Three about the operations of the Polish
military underground: "Though the Polish resistance killed about
150,000 Germans, this did not come remotely close to the 5,384,000
Polish citizens killed by the Germans during the occupation." I frankly
don't know what to make of this sentence. First of all, it is not clear
whether the figure for Germans killed by the Polish resistance refers
only to military or also to civilian casualties. In the former case, it
would be wildly exaggerated, cross off a naught and you got the
accurate figure including casualties sustained by German forces during
the Warsaw Uprising. In the latter case, we are talking about a lot of
innocent people who deserve more than only such a perfunctory notice,
even if the number of Polish victims was 36 times higher. But as Lukas
doesn't even bother to provide a detailed breakdown of the 5,384,000
Polish Jews and Christians who perished under Nazi occupation, why
should he dedicate more than one sentence to German civilians killed by
the Polish underground? The apologetic tone of the sentence is another
irritating factor. When we speak of crimes against innocent people,
comparing numbers and setting off one crime against the other is an
utterly inappropriate attitude, one that I would expect to find with a
pro-Nazi revisionist, but not with someone who is supposed to be a
serious scholar. I must say that I once recommended this book on a
Third Reich discussion forum after reading through its first chapter. I
would not recommend it again, however, after going through the whole of
it. As an old German saying goes, you should not praise the day before
the evening...



 Removing the cloak of anti-Semitism, January 25, 2001 
Reviewer: Linda S. Sterling (see more about me) from Putnam Valley, New
York United States
Lukas put a new spin on the word anti-Semitism as he methodically &
factually moves the reader through generational facts and fiction -
ultimately revealing the utterly complicated psychological and physical
aspects of the Holocaust. The "Poles" were not the only bystanders - if
indeed they were bystanders; and the Jews were not the only victims.
Deep within his explanations of history, he makes the reader understand
the true misunderstandings of "survival guilt" - and the detrimental
effects that occur to perpetuate hatred & blame when misundestandings
are allowed to turn into truths. This book is a MUST READ for anyone
with an open-mind who wants truth - and anyone willing to trade blame
for understanding.


 Fascinating Overview of the German Occupation of Poland, October 5,
2000 
Reviewer: Steven Lee Wiggins (see more about me) from Ottawa, IL United
States
This is one of the best overviews of the German occupation of Poland.
This book explains how it "felt" to live under the Nazis. The
Underground press, Underground schools, boycotts, posters, attacks on
SS officers, plays and movies, cafe life: these details paint a
priceless picture. Chapters also cover efforts to assist Jews, and the
Warsaw Uprising. Anyone with any interest in this story should have a
copy.



 Tells the Untold Story of the Holocaust, November 9, 1999 
Reviewer: Mr. Jan Peczkis from Chicago, IL
Very few people are aware of the fact that 3 million Polish gentiles
were murdered by the Germans during World War II. And most of these
were not involved in anti-German activity at all. Clergy and
intellectuals were murdered in disproportionate numbers. Lukas
documents this and many other facts in painstaking detail. The book is
a must for those interested in the FULL story of the Holocaust.






> 
> Say Holman, now that you have taken a shot at trying to verify the
> alleged mass extermination of 3 million non-Jews (in Poland) what
> about the other 3 million of the over-all alleged 6 million non-Jews
> said to have been killed? What child minded stuff do you propose for
> that?

Befor continuing this exchange, I would like you to answer two
questions:

1. What is your estimate of the number of deaths inflicted on the
non-gentile, non-combattant population of Poland by the Nazis during WW
II?

2. On what sources do you base your estimate?

Few regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:20 EDT 2001
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionists - how much of the Holocaust history do you believe?
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In article <20010517084541.01285.00000136@ng-fb1.aol.com>, Joseph
Boegler  wrote:

> Greg Heinrich gregheinrich@MailAndNews.com wrote:
> 
> 
> >i'm interested.
> >some of the revisionists in here seem to admit certain parts of the 
> >Holocaust 
> >history happened - ie they tend to be semi-deniers rather than full-blown
> >
> >deniers.
> >Here are my questions to the revisionists:
> >(1) Do you think Hitler intended to exterminate the Jews?
> 
> Yes.  Hitler wanted to "get rid of the Jews."  The 
> word exterminate is the English translation of ausrotten
> which  is the word that the Germans used to mean "to get rid of."

The German verb "ausrotten" is much stronger than "to get rid of". It
means "vollständig, bis zum letzten Exemplar vernichten, vertilgen" [=
"completely destroy, down to the last representative, consume" [Duden
Deutsches Universalwörterbuch, 1983.] 

Any argument that the meaning of the word has recently changed is
refuted by Himmler's own definition of it in his speech at Posen
(Poznan) on October 6, 1943:


Es trat an uns die Frage heran: Wie ist es mit den Frauen
und Kindern? - Ich habe mich entschlossen, auch hier eine
ganz klare Lösung zu finden. Ich hielt mich nämlich nicht
für berechtigt, die Männer auszurotten - sprich also,
umzubringen oder umbringen zu lassen - und die Rächer
in Gestalt der Kinder für unsere Söhne und Enkel
groß werden zu lassen. Es mußte der schwere Entschluß
gefaßt werden, dieses Volk von der Erde verschwinden zu
lassen.


- Heinrich Himmler on October 6, 1943 to National and regional leaders
in Posen, German-occupied Poland.

Quoted from

Hermann Graml, _Reichskristallnacht_ [= "National Crystal Night"], DTV
4519, S. 264.

Translation:

"We came to the question: what to with the women and children? I decided
to find a clear solution here as well. I did not consider myself
justified to exterminate the men - that is, to kill them or have them
killed - and allow those who will seek revenge on our sons and
grandsons to grow up in the form of their children. The difficult
decision had to be taken to make this people disappear from the earth."


The critical part of Himmler's speech is: 

"auszurotten - sprich also, umzubringen oder umbringen zu lassen"
>"auszurotten [exterminate] - that is to say, kill (them) or have
(them) killed"

German policy, he continues, is:

"...dieses Volk von der Erde verschwinden zu lassen", that is to say
"...to make this people disappear from the earth."


The meaning of this word and of Himmler's intent is made absolutely 
clear.

 
> >(2) Do you think Hitler actually exterminated Jews?
> 
> Yes.  He got most of the Jews out of Europe, which is 
> what he wanted to do.

The question was whether he exterminated them. I would answer no.
Hitler never physically killed a Jew in his life. He issued oral orders
to Heinrich Himmler and Reinhard Heinrich to devise a final solution to
the Jewish problem as they best saw fit. Up until that time, evidently
June 1940, Nazi policy towards Jews had been to marginalize them and
encourage them to emigrate from Germany. The situation having changed,
and with Nazi Germany suddenly and unexpectedly having control over
about half of the 3,300,000 Jews in Poland, and plans to gain control
over millions more in the war agaisnt the USSR which was already in the
planning stage, the situation had radically changed. The budgeting,
planning, and other administrative measures necessary to construct the
more than 10,000 concentration camps which the Nazis eventually ran
date from this period.


> >(3) How many Jews do you think were exterminated?
> 
> About one million Jews died from all causes during 
> World War II.  Around four million survivors applied for 
> reparations after the war.  Those in Russia were not 
> allowed to get reparations, but there were millions more
> living there after the war.

Where do you get such a figure? More than half a million Hungarian Jews
died in 1944 alone. Another 260,000 were killed in Romania, another
3,000,00±3% were killed in Poland, virtually all of Greece's 60,000
Jews were killed, as were about 100,000 of the 150,000 Jews in the
Netherlands.

In January 1942, after having been slaughtering Jews with abandon all
along the eastern front from Estonia to the Crimea for seven months,
including such massacres as Babi Yar (33,000 dead),  Odessa (30,000
dead) and Riga (25,000 dead), the Nazis at the Wannsee Conference
estimated that there were _still_ more than 11,000,000 Jews in Europe
to be dealt with within the framework of the Final Solution.
> 
> >(4) Were there concentration camps?
> 
> Yes, there were concentration camps, labor camps, 
> transit camps, one exchange camp, several sick 
> camps and also POW camps.  There were also ghettos
> like Lodz and Kovno which were still being used as late as
> 1944.  There were also prisons such as the ones at 
> Theresienstadt and Kovno.

All in all, the Nazis ran more than 10,000 detention facilities,
including forced labor camps, showplace camps, concentration camps,
ghettos, euthanasia centers, and extermination camps. Some of them,
like Majdanek and the Auschwitz complex (which consisted of 41 camps)
were multifunctional.

 
> >(5) When Hitler mentioned the annihilation of Jews in various speeches he
> >
> >made, was he talking literally?
> 
> Yes, he meant that the Jews would lose their power in Europe, 
> but they would still be alive and well some place else.

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/hitler-1922.html

"Once I really am in power, my first and foremost task will be the
annihilation of the Jews. As soon as I have the power to do so, I will
have gallows built in rows - at the Marienplatz in Munich, for example
- as many as traffic allows. 

"Then the Jews will be hanged indiscriminately, and they will remain
hanging until they stink; they will hang there as long as the
principles of hygiene permit. As soon as they have been untied, the
next batch will be strung up, and so on down the line, until the last
Jew in Munich has been exterminated. Other cities will follow suit,
precisely in this fashion, until all Germany has been completely
cleansed of Jews." (1) 

1. Josef Hell, "Aufzeichnung," 1922, ZS 640, p. 5, Institute fuer
Zeitgeschichte. The retired Major Josef Hell was a journalist in the
twenties and in the beginning of the thirties, during which time he
also collaborated with Dr. Fritz Gerlich, the editor of the weekly
newspaper Der Gerade Weg, as cited in Fleming, Gerald. Hitler and the
Final Solution. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1984. p. 17 


> 
> >(6) If the genocides did not happen, how do you account for the huge paper
> >
> >trails generated by the transportation of millions of people to 
> >concentration 
> >camps? 
> 
> Hitler's plan was to make Germany and the conquered territory 
> occupied by the Germans "Judenrein" by which he meant "free of
> Jews."  The plan was to transport millions of people to the East
> to concentration camps.  Then, after the war, if Germany won, 
> they would be resettled some place else.  Hitler supported the 
> Zionists who wanted the Jews to have their own country.
> Millions of people WERE, in fact, transported the the East.
> Hitler can be regarded as the founder of Israel because without
> him, the Jews would never have gotten a country of their own.

His purpose was to "transport them to the east, all right, but
certainly not to allow them to resettle land that the Germans had
conquered at great cost for their own needs. SS-Obergruppenführer and
HSSPF for North Russia, Friedrich Jeckeln, was responsible for dealing
with with many of the Jews transported to the east:

Source:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/ftp.py?people/j/jeckeln.friedrich


   

Shofar FTP Archive File:
people/j/jeckeln.friedrich/jeckeln-interrogation.1245

The Interrogation of Friedrich Jeckeln [1]

The  shootings  were  carried out  under  the  direction  of
Colonel  Dr.  Lange,  Commander of the  SD  and  Gestapo  in
Latvia.  Knecht was in charge of security at the liquidation
sites.[2]  I, Jeckeln, took part in the shootings  on  three
occasions;  the  same holds for Lange,  Knecht,  Lohse,  and
Lieutenant Colonel Osis, commander of the traffic police  in
Riga.

Q: Who did the shooting?

A: Ten or twelve German SD soldiers.

Q: What was the procedure?

A:  All of the Jews went by foot from the ghetto in Riga  to
the  liquidation site. Near the pits, they  had  to  deposit
their  overclothes, which were washed, sorted,  and  shipped
back  to  Germany.  Jews-men, women,  and  children-  passed
through police cordons on their way to the pits, where  they
were shot by German soldiers.

Q: Did you report the execution of the order to Himmler?

A:  Yes, indeed. I notified Himmler by phone that the ghetto
in  Riga  had  been liquidated. And when I was  in  Loetzen,
East  Prussia,  in  December 1941,  I  reported  in  person,
too.[3] Himmler was satisfied with the results. He said that
more  Jewish convoys were due to arrive in Latvia, and these
| were to be liquidated by me also.

Q: Go into more detail.

A:  At  the  end  of  January  1942,[4]  I  was  at  Himmler's
headquarters   in   Loetzen,  East   Prussia,   to   discuss
organizational  matters regarding the  Latvian  SS  legions.
There  Himmler  informed me that additional  Jewish  convoys
were  due to arrive from the Reich and from other countries.
The  destination point would be the Salaspils  concentration
camp,  which  lay one and a quarter miles from Riga  in  the
direction  of Duenaburg. Himmler said that he  had  not  yet
determined  how he would have them exterminated: whether  to
have  them  shot on board their convoys or in Salaspils,  or
whether to chase them into the swamp somewhere.

Q: How was the matter resolved?

A:  It was my opinion that shooting would be the simpler and
quicker death. Himmler said he would think it over and  then
give orders later through Heydrich.

Q: What countries were the Jews in Salaspils brought from?

A: Jews were brought from Germany, France, Belgium, Holland,
Czechoslovakia,  and from other occupied  countries  to  the
Salaspils camp. To give a precise count of the Jews  in  the
Salaspils camp would be difficult. In any case, all the Jews
>from  this camp were exterminated. But I would like to  make
an additional statement while we are on this topic.

Q: What statement would you like to make?

A:  I would like to state for the record that Goering shares
in  the  guilt  for the liquidations of Jewish convoys  that
arrived  from other countries. In the first half of February
1942  I  received a letter from Heydrich. In this letter  he
wrote that Reich Marshal Goering had gotten himself involved
in the Jewish question, and that Jews were now being shipped
to the East for annihilation only with Goering's approval.

Q:  This does not diminish your guilt. Describe your role in
the Jewish liquidations in Salaspils.

A: I have already said that I discussed the extermination of
Jews  in Salaspils with Himmler in Loetzen. That alone makes
me  an accessory to this crime. Beyond that, Jews were  shot
in  the  Salaspils camp by forces recruited from my  SD  and
Security  Police units. The commander of the SD and  Gestapo
in  Latvia,  Lieutenant Colonel Dr. Lange, was  directly  in
charge of the shootings. Other officers who reported  to  me
on  the shootings of Jews in the camp were the commander  of
the SD and Gestapo in the Baltic States, Major General Jost;
Colonel of Police Pifrader; and Colonel of Police Fuchs.

Q: Specifically, what did they report to you?

A:  They reported that two to three convoys of Jews were  to
arrive per week, all subject to liquidation.

Q:  Then  the number of Jews shot in Salaspils ought  to  be
known too, isn't that correct?

A:  Yes,  of course. I can give you the approximate figures.
The  first  Jewish convoys arrived in Salaspils in  November
1941.  Then, in the first half of 1942, convoys  arrived  at
regular intervals. I
believe  that  in November 1941, no more than three  convoys
arrived  in  all,  but during the next  seven  months,  from
December 1941 to June 1942, eight to twelve convoys  arrived
each month.
Overall,  in  eight months, no less than fifty-five  and  no
more  than eighty-seven Jewish convoys arrived at the  camp.
Given that each convoy carried a thousand men, that makes  a
total of 55,000 to 87,000 Jews exterminated in the Salaspils
camp.

Q: This figure sounds low. Are you telling the truth?

A:  I have no other, more exact figures. It should be added,
however, that before my arrival in
Riga,  a  significant number of Jews in the Ostland  and  in
White  Ruthenia  were exterminated. I was informed  of  this
fact.[5]

Q: By whom, specifically?

A:  Stahlecker;  Pruetzmann; Lange; Major General  Schroder,
the SS and Police Leader in Latvia;
Major  General Moeller the SS and Police Leader in  Estonia;
and  Major  General  Wysocki the SS  and  Police  Leader  in
Lithuania.

Q: Be specific. What did they report?

A:  Schroeder reported to me that over and above those  Jews
who  had  been  exterminated  in  the  ghetto  in  Riga   an
additional  70,000  to  100,000 Jews  were  exterminated  in
Latvia.  Dr. Lange directly oversaw these shootings. Moeller
reported that in Estonia everything was in order as  far  as
the Jewish question was concerned.

The Estonian Jewish population was insignificant, all in all
about  3,000  to  5,000 and this was  reduced  to  nil.  The
greater  part  were exterminated in Reval. Wysocki  reported
that  100,000  to  200,000  Jews  were  exterminated-shot-in
Lithuania, on Stahlecker's orders. In Lithuania, the  Jewish
exterminations were overseen by the commander of the SD  and
Gestapo,  Lieutenant Colonel of Police Jaeger. Later  Jaeger
told  me  that he had become neurotic as a result  of  these
shootings.  Jaeger was pensioned off and left his  post  for
treatment. All told, the number of Jews exterminated in  the
actions in the Baltic East reached somewhere in the vicinity
of 190,500 to 253,500.[6]

Notes:

1. Minutes from Jeckeln's interrogation on 14 December 1945
(Major Zwetajew, interrogator;  Sergeant Suur, interpreter),
pp. 8-13, Historical State Archives, Riga.

2. Max Knecht was the commander of the municipal police in
Latvia.

3. I.e., to Himmler's "Hochwald" headquarters in Loetzen.

4. I.e, 25 January 1942, 11:30 A.M. - 1:00 P.M.; per RFSS
appointments book, NS 19 DC/vorl. 12, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

On  the  same  day  Himmler made the  following  handwritten
entry, re: his telephone conversation "from the Wolfsschanze
17  [i.e., 5:00 EM.] SS Gr.F. Heydrich Prague: Jews into the
concentration camps" NS 19/neu 1439 Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

5. Jeckeln was promoted on 31 October 1941 to Higher SS and
Police Leader for northern Russia (H.Q. Riga); Jeckeln,
personnel file, Berlin Document Center. A second promotion
to the rank of Leader of the SS Upper Section, "Ostland,"
occurred on 11 December 1941 (Bundesarchiv, Koblenz [NS 19
neu/2846]).

6. In reply to telegram number 1331 from the Security Police
of Riga (dated 6 February 1942), SS-Standartenfuehrer Karl Jaeger 
reported the following from Kovno on 9 February 1942: 

"Re: executions through 1 February 1942 by the Einsatzkommando 3A: 
Jews: 136,421. Total: 138,272, of these, women: 55,556; children:
34,464"
(Institut fuer Zeitgeschichte 3253/63 Fb 76 [a]).



> 
> > How do you account for the numerous eyewitness testimonies made
> >by 
> >people on both sides?
> 
> The Germans testified to anything that the Jews wrote 
> for them in order to stop the torture and to protect their 
> families who were in the custody of the Allies.  The Jews 
> testified to lies in order to get revenge, and to make money
> off the Holocaust.
> 

I see. The Nazis, who made the idiotic mistake of invading the USSR
unprepared for winter warfare when the summer was more than half-way
over, when they were already had more than enough to do militarily in
the west, north, and south with their war against the UK and France,
and their occupation of most of their neighbors, were framed by a
gigantic Jewish conspiracy pulled off by the Jews in coordination with
the governments and judiciaries of more than twenty countries. All of
those accounts about Nazi atrocities, which were already filtering back
to Europe starting in late 1941 and were already being referred to as a
"Holocaust" as early as 1942, were really all invented in 1945. It all
makes sense now.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:21 EDT 2001
Article: 899716 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let's try to get our facts straight, OK
Supersedes: <170520010956414808%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
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In article <3B031108.3F57F850@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> =====================================================
> Phillips
> 
> You tell us  that any of the three  --Russia, USA, or Britain-- could have
> alone defeated Germany. I don't think so.
> 
> --Could Britain have done this? Emphatically no.

Britian by itself could not have; Britian with the Commonwealth behind
her full force could have. Germany, while not landlocked, is in a very
unfortunate geographical position, had no allies to speak of, and no
colonies. In order to secure the ports needed for access to the ocean,
it had to occupy France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, and Norway,
tying down a considerable amount of manpower. Britain was the
unchallenged monarch of the seaways and, with help from Canada, the
Union of South Africa, India, and Australia it could have seriously
compromised Germany's ability to import strategic raw materials or
acquire the foreign currency needed to pay for it. National socialism
was built on "funny money". The Reichsmark was not a convertible
currency and was not an acceptable means of exchange for foreign trade.
The Germans had learned the importance of British mastery of the
sealanes during WW I when they still had overseas colonies and a
technical advantage in submarine warfare. Britain, with its mastery of
the sea, worldwide commonwealth, and internationally accepted currency
had several advantages over Germany at the start of WW II. This is one
of the reasons that the Nazis attempted to undermine the Bitish economy
by printing large amounts of counterfeit British currency.

> 
> --Could America have done this? You're talking about our taking on the ENTIRE
> German Army. Well, mister, speaking for myself, I'd have hated to try it.
> What happned on the Western Front was inconclusive becasue, as you yourself
> pointed out, the bulk of the German forces were fighting in Russia. The
> Germans did not have an extremely high regard for the US Army although they
> did have such a regard for our tactical air forces. ONe thing you have to
> remember is that the Germans got far more fighting power out of their
> manpower base because their army's "overhead"  is much less than ours. (In
> the Red Army, the overhead was zero.)

America could very well have defeated Germany, particularly when you
think that the populations of the countries Germany was occupying along
its western borders, as well as Norway, were decidedly
Anglo-Americanophile and anti-German. Sabotage and good soldier
Svejk-like behavior would have caused Germany to squander increasing
amounts or resources and manpower keeping restive populations quiet,
seriously compromising its ability to concentrate on the war.


> 
> --Could   Russia have done this? Quite possibly. It would have depended on a
> number of things.
> I believe the Germans could have had a victory in Russia there had they been
> 
> --less grandiose in their war aims
> --less paranoid regarding Slavs
> --less insane in their reprisals for partisan activity.
> 
> ============================================

I agree with you on all three counts. You forgot the fourth and perhaps
most important one:

---less non-chalant about meteorology

Germany attacked Russia on June 22, 1941. In this part of the world
that is the day after _midsummer_. The German Army had not been trained
for winter warfare and Hitler, having seen the bloody nose that the
tiny Finnish army inflicted on the Soviets in the Winter War of 1939-40
(kill rate 1 to 6), thought that defeating the USSR would be a six-week
walkover and thus expressly forbade his armies to pack winter clothing 
- despite the facts that the first frosty nights in the area of battle
occur in mid-August, and the autumn rains, which also begin then, turn
the rather primitive road system of the north-western part of Russia
into a muddy morass.

To some extent this unconcern for meterology can be ascribed to hubris
- the grandiose war aims - but many military historians think it was
Father Frost, not Uncle Joe's Red Army, that was the ultimate cause of
Germany's defeat on the eastern front.

Many military historians would concede that Germany had the best
trained and most vicious army in the world, and that its effectiveness
was enhanced by Germany's undiplomatic way of practicing warfare -
sneak attacks on countries with which it had no conflict and a scorched
earth policy as standard practice. My father, who was in Belgium,
France, and Germany during the war and saw the type of damage they
inflicted, was of this opinion. His explanation for the defeat on the
western front was simple: "They ran out of gas". With limited access to
the British and American controlled sea, few natural resources, no
colonies, and a currency with which it was impossible to conduct
foreign trade, Germany was only acquire the resources it would have
needed to win the war by making them themselves ('Ersatz'), or
plundering them, a strategy which didn't always work, the defeat at
Stalingrad being the most obvious example.

A fifth one that also comes to mind is having a systemn of government
which allowed an amateur like Hitler, with interest (but no formal
training) in art and symbolism rather than in strategic thinking, to
have the ultimate say in military planning. Let's face it. If a
relatively small, resource-poor country like Germany is going to attack
a giant, resource-rich country like the USSR with one hand tied behind
its back (= the western front and the resources and manpower needed to
occupy several countries in Europe), its only chance of success is to
devote all of its efforts to going for the jugular - Moscow. Instead,
at
Hitler's insistance and strongly against the advice of his general
staff, Germany added an element of humiliation to its sneak attack on
the USSR and built its strategy on conquering the two cities whose
names symbolized the essence of the Soviet state, Leningrad and
Stalingrad, in addition to going for Moscow. This amounted to going for
the head, nuts, and jugular all at the same time instead of going for
the jugular alone. As it turned out, by having three strategic
objectives all of relatively equal importance, the Germans failed to
achieve any one of them.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Fri May 18 01:02:21 EDT 2001
Article: 899975 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.polish
Subject: Revisionist claims max. 200,000 Poles, including Jews, died in WW II (was: Holocaust Revisionism and Anti-Zionism on the Left)
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:30:29 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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Part of a discussion with a historical revisionist from alt.revision under
the thread "Holocaust Revisionism and Anti-Zionism on the Left".

In article <3b338806.779202721@news.pacificnet.net>, trm@pacificnet.net
(tom moran) wrote:

The comments of Polish readers are welcome.

> 
> Holman wants to know before anything else:
> >Before continuing this exchange, I would like you to answer two
> >questions:
> >
> >1. What is your estimate of the number of deaths inflicted on the
> >non-gentile, non-combattant population of Poland by the Nazis during WW
> >II?
> >
> >2. On what sources do you base your estimate?
> 
> I would say no more than say 200,000, including any Jews. What do I
> base my number on? The absence of anything credible to show more. In
> fact I haven't seen anything credible that would tell us about any
> mass exterminations that could add up to 200,000. The only thing I
> have seen that is credible that would document the slaughter of
> thousands is the German investigation at the Katyn forest. After all,
> how do you tally up some 2,380,000 victims. By counting individual
> instances. One here, a few there, a few score here, a hundred there?
> No way. In fact it would take some 2,380 incidents of mass
> extermination of one thousand people each to arrive at the 2,380,000
> figure. Where are the accounts?
> 
> Go ahead Holman, just say they know by how many people were missing.
> Of course when you do that give some extensive and credible
> documentation. After all, we're talking about 2,380,000.
> 

I have taken the liberty of cross-posting this to soc.culture.polish. I
have to go to Estonia today; will continue tomorrow.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:18 EDT 2001
Article: 900980 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.flame.niggers,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Crime and "Skin Color" (was White Nationalism is based on NOTHING)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 22:47:38 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 16
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In article <3b06e17c$0$195@news.impulse.net>, Waldo
 wrote:


> 
> Nearly half of all serious crime, especially *violent* crime, is being
> perpetrated by a group that makes up less than 13% of the US population.

Nearly 90% of all serious crime, especially *violent* crime, is being
perpetrated by a group that makes up less than 48% of the US
population.

Males.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:18 EDT 2001
Article: 900988 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.flame.niggers,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Crime and "Skin Color" (was White Nationalism is based on NOTHING)
Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:06:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 131
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In article <3b061399$0$192@news.impulse.net>, Waldo
 wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
> news:170520011215498565%holman@elo.helsinki.fi...


> > There is no "ideal" Negro, as your cite would have us believe, and
> > more than the blond-haired, blue-eyed Nordic, a minority among
> > Caucasians, is an "ideal" white. For this reason your "facts" are
> > specious.
> 
> So much politically correct hogwash.
> 
> There is no "ideal" moose or deer either Eugene. Is it therefor "specious"
> to state that Moose are generally much larger, have longer muzzles, much
> heavier antlers, and have a reputation for being downright MEAN when
> compared to deer?
> 

No more than it is to state that males are generally much more prone to
commit crime, especially violent crime, than females.


> 
> Ok. Would you then consider noble to inter-breed all sub-species of all
> animals on the planet to form homogenous mongrelized breeds?

Your use of the term "mongrelized breeds" implies the existence of
"pure" breeds. In actaul fact, pure and ideal representatives of
entities defined by classification according to arbitrary parameters do
not exist. Your thinking sees the different subgroupings as primary
entities, the integrity of which could be destroyed by cross-breeding.
Inreality, the opposite is true: the most distinct populations have
evolved from a basic stock by isolation and inbreeding.

> 
> Please show statistics that prove that Blacks are *underrepresented* in
> these prison populations when compared to Blacks in the national
> populations.

Russia, to take one example, has very few blacks; the prisons are full
of Russians, not blacks.

> 
> > and that virtually all-White Russia has crime rates,
> > including murder rates, topping that of the USA?
> 
> Russia is attempting to recover from a 70 year period of totalitarian
> communism that began under the merciless heel of Jewish Bolshevism. The
> Russian population was corrupted by the ruthlessness of the criminal
> communist regime, under which basic necessities were literally unobtainable.
> This spawned a thriving black market which became engrained into the daily
> lives of the Russians.
> 
> Russia under communism was similar to the US under prohibition: Government
> policy fostered criminal activity. The supposed conversion to capitalism has
> emboldened the ambitions of every petty Russian criminal.

Black America is attempting to recover from 250 years of slavery, a
hundred years of Ku Klux Klan terrorism, and 350 years of
dehumanization an denial of basic rights. If your argument about Russia
has any validity, then so does my argument about Black America.


> 
> A correction is necessary at this point:  The figures I posted previously
> referred only to murders in which the race of the offender was KNOWN. These
> figures were perfectly suitable, as the discussion at that point pertained
> only to White crime rates vs Black crime rates in the US.
> 
> The actual FBI figures for 1998 are as follows:
> 
> Total Murders: 16,019
> Total *known* White offenders (including Hispanics) : 5,620
> Total *known* Black offenders: 5,647
> Total "other" offenders: 289
> Total offenders of *unknown* race: 4,463
> 
> Source FBI Uniform Crime Report, 1998, Murder and Non-negligent
> Manslaughter, Table 2.6:  Murder Offenders.
> 
> The factor that did not previously enter into the equation was the UNKNOWN
> offender category.
> 
> Both Blacks and Whites (including Hispanics) were each the offenders in
> approximately 49% of the murders in which the race of the offender was
> KNOWN. It therefor stands to reason that Blacks and Whites (including
> Hispanics) respectively committed 49% of the murders in which the race of
> the offender is UNKNOWN.
> 
> Therefor, the ACTUAL number of murders committed should be revised as
> follows:
> 
> Total murders committed by Blacks: 7,833.
> 
> Total murders committed by Whites (including Hispanics) 7,806.
> 
> > Assuming a Black US population
> > of 13%, that means 35,500,000, or 1 out of 6261 Blacks is a murderer.
> 
> Using the correct figures, 1 out of every *4,532* Blacks committed a murder
> in 1998.
> 
> > A Russian is thus about 27% more likely than an American Black to
> > commit a murder,
> 
> Actually, an American Black, living in the most prosperous and opportune
> country in the world,

Point of pedantic order. Luxembourg is no. 1, the USA only number 2
(cf. www.CountryWatch.com)

> is 8.5% MORE likely to commit murder than a White
> Russian living in poverty, turmoil and political upheaval.

Russia (with the exception of Chechnya) has been stable for the past
seven or eight years. It just happens to be poor right now. According
to the most recent statistics its GDP/capita is between Ecuador's and
Namibia's.


> If all Blacks were magically transported to Mother Africa tomorrow, the NFL,
> the NBA, and the GangstaRap Music industries would be in a shambles. The
> upside is that the US crime rate would plummet by nearly half.

Hardly. The most criminal decade in 20th century US history was the
1920s. Black crime was a minor factor back then.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:19 EDT 2001
Article: 901224 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.flame.niggers,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Crime and "Skin Color" (was White Nationalism is based on NOTHING)
Supersedes: <210520011341085202%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:55:54 +0300
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In article , God.Almighty
 wrote:

> On Sun, 20 May 2001 23:31:18 -0400, "Jeffrey G. Brown"
>  wrote:
> 
>
> >
> >I'm not, coward. The fact is that *males* commit the most crime. Nothing you 
> >have posted has proven any different.
> I never claimed it proved anything different, hell, I even said in a
> previous post I did not deny nor argue the fact that Males committed a
> majority of crime.You broke it down into 2 groups, I just broke those
> two groups into two more subgroups, I merely showed that within the
> group of males, when broken down by race, showed the nigger buck
> committing crime at 7 times the rate of white males.

Your thinking behind the interpretation of the statistics has some
major flaws. You are equating being convicted of crimes with committing
crimes. In many jurisdictions as few as 50% of the crimes allegedly
committed are ever solved. Committing crimes, alleging that crimes have
been committed, being suspected or accused of committing crimes, and
being convicted of having committed crimes are quite different
things from the legal standpoint and should be kept distinct. Racial
profiling means that the police and others will keep sharper tabs on
some groups than others, meaning that the group more sharply tabbed
will more likely be caught and convicted for the crimes that it
commits. Money also helps. We all know that people of any race in the
US can plea bargain or even "buy" their way out of a criminal
accusation on the basis of a technicality if they have a sharp enough
lawyer and defense team.

If Tim McVeigh hadn't have been stupid enough to drive with no plates,
the Oklahoma bombing would probably have remained unsolved and ascribed
to "Arab terrorists" as it originally was. If O. J. Simpson had not had
such a brilliant defense team there would probably be two more
black-committed murders and one more black murderer in the statistics.
As it is, the two murders remain officially unsolved.


> Notice that the
> nigress commits crime at 18 times that of a white woman. Want to bet
> whether the rate nogs commit crime in the 2000 statistics will
> increase? LOL 

Yes, at you. The rates for committing crimes differ from those for
being convicted of crimes. The two Columbine shooters, Eric Harris and
Dylan Klebold, allegedly committed numerous crimes, including thirteen
murders, bomb setting, and school trashing. The same holds true for
that WCOTC guy, Benjamin "August" Smith, who allegedly went on a
shooting spree, murdering two and injuring several, ending in a
suicide. Since they committed suicide they were never tried or
convicted, and their crimes don't make the statistics for convictions.
In accordance with the American tradition of justice, their crimes are
officially unsolved and Harris, Klebold, and Smith are the prime
suspects but still officially innocent until proven guilty and thus not
included in the statistics of convicted felons.

Males of all races between the ages of 15 and 30 are disproportionately
represented in the statistics for those convicted of having committed
crimes in the United States and other Western Societies.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:19 EDT 2001
Article: 901241 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Race, Biology and Crime for Mr. Mock
Supersedes: <210520011717306028%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:19:23 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 43
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In article <26287-3B090F1B-39@storefull-175.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
 wrote:

> Waldo here presents a pseudo-scientific treatise and attempts to achieve
> martyrdom as an intelligent seeker of truth who is persecuted by an
> oppressive society obsessed with conformity.
> 
> Joe Bruno rejects his assertions about race because of personal
> experience. I am an outspoken Conservative Republican and the last
> person to care about political correctness.
> 
> I work with people of all races, including a number of Blacks. Some of
> my colleagues are fascinated by Russian culture and language. A number
> of them have asked me to teach them some Russian, and I have obliged.
> Russian is a difficult language for English only speakers because it is
> so different in grammar, alphabet, and pronounciation..
> 
> Of all the people who I have tried to teach to speak Russki, the only
> two who have been able to learn any of it have both been Black. All the
> Whites and Hispanics have given up.
> 
> Illuminating, isn't it?
> 

Ya tozhe chornokozhnyi vladeyushchiy russkim yazykom.

Racists would say that this is proof of Negro inferiority. Learning a
language requires no more than the intelligence of a two-year-old and
the imitative abilities of a parrot, both falling within the abilities
of putatively childlike, unevolved and thus animal-like Negro
intelligence, but too trivial for the more complex and evolved
cognitive abiltiies of the adult white. A variant of this argument was
used by the Nazis to explain the superior running abilities of Black
American Jesse Owens compared to that of the German Aryans at the 1936
Berlin Olympics.

Takoy sposob argumentatsii sovsem tipichnaya dlya rasistov, dlya
kotorykh vsyo sluzhit dokazatel'svom togo, chto belaya rasa
zapadno-evropeyskogo proiskhozhdeniya bolee razvitaya i sledovatel'no
kachestvenno luchshe vsekh drugikh.
 
Best regards/S privetom,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:19 EDT 2001
Article: 901249 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Race, Biology and Crime for Mr. Mock
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:47:48 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 145
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In article <3B0910D7.A83EE1EF@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ===========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Pseudo-scientific? That is a term commonly used to describe theories we
> disagree with. Its object is to dismiss them without the inconvenience of
> debate.

Waldo's argumentation _was_ pseudo-scientific, something I demonstrated
by using his same methodology to "prove" that males are more
disproportionately represented among people convicted of violent crime
in the United States than blacks are.

> ===========================================
> Phillip 
> What may be the best book written on the subject of race is RACE AND REASON
> by Carleton Putnam written in 1961.
> (Library of Congress Catalog Card Number: 61-8447)
> 
> The book is brief , only 118 pages, but well worth nyone's time and
> attention.
> 
> If you should ever decide to obtain and read the book, it may not change
> your views (on THAT subject, views almost never change) but it will convince
> you that there is another side to the question.
> 
> =============================================================================

There are several sides to the question, and we have discussed them
here many times.

For the time being the set of people referred to as American blacks,
most of them racially mixed and many of them genetically having more
white than black heritage, are disproportionately represented among the
people convicted for committing violent crime in the United States.
There is no arguing that this is true.

Often neglected are the facts that:

1. American blacks are, for the most part, not "Negroes" in any
reasonable sense, but rather the mixed race offspring of Africans,
Europeans, and often America Indians. Thus it would be incorrect to
speak of racial tendencies in a group of people that represents a
mixture of different races. It would be more proper to speak of a
aocio-cultural tendency, but this works on the questionable assumption
that American blacks constitute a single social of cultural group.

2. The figures for conviction for crime do not accurately reflect the
prevelance of crime within a given community, since only about half of
all crimes allegedly committed lead to a conviction. The better a
person plans and conceals his crimes, the lesser the likelihood that he
will be apprehended and convicted. In a situation where only half of
the crimes lead to convictions this is an important factor.

3. Black crime in American society is of recent occurrence. From 1620,
when the first African slaves were introduced to North America, up
until the mid 1960s, American blacks were more often the victims than
the perpetrators of crimes.

While recognizing that violent black criminality is a problem in
American society, I cannot accept explanations of it in terms of racial
tendencies. American blacks are racially mixed, crime statistics
necessarily reflect only a part of a much more complex reality, and
black crime is a relatively recent phenomenon in American society,
being largely restricted, if we are to trust the imperfect statistics,
to blacks in the lowest social strata. Violent white criminality, too,
affects the lower social strata more than the upper ones, suggesting
social rather than racial explantions for violent crime. 

Given that there are proportionately more blacks than whites in the
lowest social strata, and being that people of this type are more
likely to commit opportunistic violent crimes which easily lead to
apprehension and, since those apprehended are less likely to have
access to the type of legal council which would allow them to plea
bargain or be freed on a technicality, to convictions, there is nothing
surprising about the fact that blacks of the lowest social strata are
disproportionately represented among those convicted for violent
crimes.

Any attempt to draw racial conclusions from this is offset by the fact
that the murder rate in nearly all-white Russia as presently about 25%
higher than the murder rate for American blacks. Nobody has ever
seriously argued that Russians or Eastern European whites have a
racially determined tendency to commit murder. The explanation given is
always the breakdown of social controls, the legacy of communism
[whatever that's supposed to mean within this context], and economic
opportunism.

Regards,
Eugene Holman








> ===============================================
> Phillips
> 
> You appear to favour racial equality yet call yourself a "Conservative
> Republican." Taking that term at face-value, please tell us just what it is
> you seek to "conserve."
> 
> ===================================
> 
> >
> >
> > I work with people of all races, including a number of Blacks. Some of
> > my colleagues are fascinated by Russian culture and language. A number
> > of them have asked me to teach them some Russian, and I have obliged.
> > Russian is a difficult language for English only speakers because it is
> > so different in grammar, alphabet, and pronounciation..
> >
> > Of all the people who I have tried to teach to speak Russki, the only
> > two who have been able to learn any of it have both been Black. All the
> > Whites and Hispanics have given up.
> >
> > Illuminating, isn't it?
> 
> ==========================================
> Phillips
> 
> Not particularly. The intelligence of a particulr group is not a single
> number but is a distribution, with a mean or average and a  spread
> (sometimes called variance). The average for black people is about 15 points
> below that of whites. this has been confirmed by study after study. And
> because of that spread, there are going to be a lot of blacks who score
> higher than a lot of whites. But, becasue of the difference in the
> resspective means, this is generally not the case.
> 
> ====================================================
> 
> >
> >
> > Joe Bruno
> > Respect is a two- way street
> > http://www.trachtman.org/MIDI/Joplin/magnetic.mid
> >
> >
> >


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:19 EDT 2001
Article: 901263 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Responses to Revisionist Arguments -- Wiesenthal 1 (post 1 of 3 possible, self-imposed limit)
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 18:43:49 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <4d338ce1.0105210702.726b3b79@posting.google.com>, Andrew
 wrote:


> >   The point of all this long-windedness is that it defies logic that the
> > same country that developed nerve gases, rockets, missiles, jet aircraft,
> > the Tiger and Panther tanks, and unwittingly advanced both American and
> > Soviet aerospace and related military applications by at least twenty years
> > would be such clumsy boobs if they truly designed on mass murder.  No,
> > whatever their morals (or lack thereof), at least give them credit for being
> > decent scientists, engineers, and economists.  So if I can figure out how
> > the Nazis could've better accomplished their alledged fiendish designs,
> > rather than the dubious methods that were described by the "eyewitnesses",
> > then presumably they had sufficient talent to have already done "better".
> > This is what has led me to doubt the so-called "Holocaust" as preached, and
> > especially resent my tax dollars going towards a museum promulgating such.
> > 
> > DLS
> 
> Indeed, I do give the Nazis credit for being phenomenal scientists,
> engineers, and economists, for they recognized right away that the
> real bottleneck in the procedure was NOT the actual killing of the
> victims (a fact I have seen many a revisionist ignore).  In fact, the
> time taken to kill the people in the chamber was almost irrelevant. 
> What took the most time in the process was the disposal of the bodies.
>  If we ignore the fact that constructing a hypobaric chamber is
> relatively complex compared to the construction of a gas chamber, and
> depending on how fast you could pump the air out of such a small
> chamber, it is possible that your hypobaric chamber could kill the
> people inside faster than the Zyklon B did.  But so what?  They didn't
> need to kill the people FAST, they just needed to kill the people fast
> ENOUGH to keep up with the crematory ovens.  Zyklon B fulfilled that
> function nicely.
> 

Correct indeed. There is also the important problem of covering tracks.
The Nazis did not want to advertise the fact that they were
mass-murdering people any more than they had to. Why go to the trouble
of building technical and easily identifiable hypobaric gas chambers
when Zyklon B, ubiquitous because of its use as a fumigant, could do
the job quickly and efficiently in premises that needed nothing more
technologically complex than ventilation and aeration systems and could
not be unambiguously identified as gas chambers. 

Efficiency is an overall concept. Resources are not being used
efficiently if they are devoted to killing people more quickly and with
more technology than is needed from the standpoint of making the
process maximally descrete for those who become its unwitting victims
and maximally concealable for those investigating it forensically. The
thirty minutes throughput time from the time the door was shut locking
the people into the gas chamber untl the time the door was reopened to
begin corpse removal did not constitute a bottleneck. The process of
removing and disposing of the bodies, and cleaning up afterwards, was.
A more efficient gas or more technically complex gas chamber could not
have changed that fact. 

>From the standpoint of killing large numbers of people quickly and
cheaply, and of leaving as little evidence as possible, Zyklon-B and a
sturdy room equipped with a gas-proof door, a simple, non-technical,
inncoent looking, and removable system to introduce the lethal agent,
and powerful aeration and ventilation systems, constitute a truly
efficient, cheap, and easily concealed solution.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:20 EDT 2001
Article: 901650 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Responses to Revisionist Arguments -- Wiesenthal 1 (post 1 of 3 possible, self-imposed limit)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 12:17:02 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <4d338ce1.0105211613.63eccf83@posting.google.com>,
gauss@mailandnews.com (Andrew) wrote:

> Eugene Holman  wrote in message
news:<210520011843497494%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>...
> > In article <4d338ce1.0105210702.726b3b79@posting.google.com>, Andrew
>

> > Efficiency is an overall concept. Resources are not being used
> > efficiently if they are devoted to killing people more quickly and with
> > more technology than is needed from the standpoint of making the
> > process maximally descrete for those who become its unwitting victims
> > and maximally concealable for those investigating it forensically. The
> > thirty minutes throughput time from the time the door was shut locking
> > the people into the gas chamber untl the time the door was reopened to
> > begin corpse removal did not constitute a bottleneck. The process of
> > removing and disposing of the bodies, and cleaning up afterwards, was.
> > A more efficient gas or more technically complex gas chamber could not
> > have changed that fact. 
> > 
> > From the standpoint of killing large numbers of people quickly and
> > cheaply, and of leaving as little evidence as possible, Zyklon-B and a
> > sturdy room equipped with a gas-proof door, a simple, non-technical,
> > inncoent looking, and removable system to introduce the lethal agent,
> > and powerful aeration and ventilation systems, constitute a truly
> > efficient, cheap, and easily concealed solution.

> 
> 
> Oops.  I hadn't thought of it from the point of view of concealment...

If you are going to kill 2,000 people at a time and are outnumbered, you
have to figure out a way to conceal your intentions. By 1944, when
Hungarian Jews were being extrminated at a breakneck pace, gassing was no
longer a secret and people generally knew what fate awaited them. Höß
tells us that order had to be kept with armed guards and snarling dogs,
that people who refused to enter the gas chamber were shot in cold blood,
and that others, knowing what was going to happen, cried or cursed at him.
Before that keeping order and preventing panic relied on convincing the
victims that the time in the "shower room" was a necessary step to a much
needed warm meal and clean clothing. The Auschwitz gas chambers were
designed to be minimalist and melt innocently into their surroundings.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:20 EDT 2001
Article: 901653 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Responses to Revisionist Arguments -- Wiesenthal 1 (post 2 of 3 possible, self-imposed limit)
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 13:02:35 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article , "Douglas
Self"  wrote:

> [for they recognized right away that the
> > real bottleneck in the procedure was NOT the actual killing of the
> > victims (a fact I have seen many a revisionist ignore).  In fact, the
> > time taken to kill the people in the chamber was almost irrelevant.
> > What took the most time in the process was the disposal of the bodies.
> >  If we ignore the fact that constructing a hypobaric chamber is
> > relatively complex compared to the construction of a gas chamber, and
> > depending on how fast you could pump the air out of such a small
> > chamber, it is possible that your hypobaric chamber could kill the
> > people inside faster than the Zyklon B did.  But so what?  They didn't
> > need to kill the people FAST, they just needed to kill the people fast
> > ENOUGH to keep up with the crematory ovens.  Zyklon B fulfilled that
> > function nicely.] Methinks you've got it backwards...you recognize the
> > difficulties of disposing of bodies, but point out that Zyklon-B 'worked
> > well enough?'. 

> The point is, the gas chambers as depicted IAW the
> eyewitness accounts wouldn't have worked very well at all!!  Zyklon-B
> employed as described wouldn't likely have killed the victims in the time
> described. 

Why? Zyklon B was designed as a fumigant which, if administered properly,
could generate enough cyanide to maintain a concentration in an enclosure
of 15,000 ppm over 20 hours. You only need a fraction of this - 300 ppm
maintained over 15 minutes - to kill people. Consider also that the rooms
were air tight. Packing 2,000 people into an air-tight room and locking
them in for half an hour would result in all of them dying from a
combination of asphyxiation and the violence generated by their desperate
efforts to break out even without the aid of a lethal agent.

I think we are misled by the term 'gas chamber'. The Nazis constructed
what are better understood as mass, non-technical "death traps", into
which people were lured by promises of a shower, warm meal, and clean
clothes afterwards. Once inside, they were killed by a combination of
asphyxiation, gas, and pandemonium. The gas was actually unnecessary, but
it ensured that most of the people would have a relatively painless and
quick death.


> Look, I'm not asking that the befuddled survivor of several
> years of hunger, cruelty, and privation be able to give a detailed technical
> description of the process.  But with as many eyewitness accounts surely at
> some point we'd be able to reconstruct the crime of all history and put
> so-called "Revisionism" to the historical dung-heap once and for all! 

If you read the detailed discussion of the gassing process in Höß's
autobiography, and supplement it with van der Pelt's expert witness
testimony at the Irving vs. Lipstadt/Penguin Books trial, you should come
up with a good idea. For a detailed account, rebutting various claims that
the Auschwitz gas chambers were "scientifically impossible", read the
three articles at http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/ by Richard
Green:

1. The Chemistry of Auschwitz.
2. Leuchter, Rudolf, and the Iron Blues.
3. Chemistry is not the Science (Jamie McCarthy)

> Look,
> the Israeli's, who produce the Merkava series of main battle tanks and the
> Lavi fighter also have great engineers, scientists, and economists..but when
> it comes to their description of the Holocaust...well...if they can't
> convince someone like myself who is partly Jewish, damm proud of it and w/o
> any use for the "Sieg-Heilers"..well, then who can??

It is a widespread fallacy to assume that the Nazi gas chambers must have
been hi-tech marvels because the Germans were such good engineers. If you
are going to kill people on an industrial scale, the last thing you want
is for them to know what is going to happen to them. This requires that
the gas chambers look innocent. Since killing people on such a scale is
universally recognized as a crime, you want your gas chamber to blend in
with its surroundings - you never know when the International Red Cross
might drop by for an on-site inspection - and you use a lethal agent that
is widely used for some other purpose: only 5% of the Zyklon B delivered
to Auschwitz was used to kill people. Finally, killing people more quickly
than the Nazis did - 1,500 to 2,000 within 30 minutes - would not mean any
improvement in the overall efficiency of the process. From a process
engineering standpoint, body removal and disposal, not killing was the
bottleneck.


> But then again, the Holocaust promulgators have been quietly over the years
> scaling back from some of the more outlanding and lurid claims...I'm just
> wondering at what point we finally get to "za troooth".  Believe me, I'm
> trying my dammednest.
> 

This is not really true. Revisionists often like to make claims to the
effect that the Holocaust "story" once contained lurid claims such as
artefacts from human skin and soap made from human fat, but that these are
no longer part of the "official" version of the Holocaust and were thus
presumably false. Actually, they never _were_ part of the Holocaust. The
Nazis did produce human skin artefacts at least at Buchenwald, and there
is a considerable amount of evidence that a few batches of soap using
human fat as an ingredient were prodused at the Stutthof concentration
camp. These lurid details tell us something about the Nazis misanthropic
attitudes and low regard for human life, but they are not directly related
to a systematic policy to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, and other
undesirables from Europe. The tanned skin and cadavers from which the fat
was rendered were concentration camp inmates about which nothing further
can be said. They are "collateral atrocities".

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:20 EDT 2001
Article: 901731 of alt.revisionism
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From: holman@elo.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 400,000 Romanian Jews allowed to live?
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 18:29:55 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 67
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In article <3b122421.161736136@news.pacificnet.net>, trm@pacificnet.net
(tom moran) wrote:

> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20010521/aponline090137_000.htm
> 


> 
> There are some 12,000 Jews in Romania today. Before World War II,
> 800,000 Jews lived in the country - about half of whom died under the
> rule of pro-Nazi dictator Marshal Ion Antonescu. The remaining Jews
> emigrated to Israel under communism, which ended in 1989. 
> 
> [ Interesting. We don't have that kind of number stated in Holocaust
> literature. What we would have from this account is that some 400,000
> Jews were exterminated and another 400,000 went to the Jewish state of
> Israel. That would be 400,000 killed and 400,000 allowed to live.
> Interesting. ]


Source: http://www.heritagefilms.com/ROMANIA.html#Holocaust Period



According to the statistical table on the potential victims of the "Final
Solution" introduced at the Wannsee Conference, 342,000 Rumanian Jews were
destined for this end. The German embassy in Bucharest conducted an
intensive propaganda campaign through its journal, Bukarester Tageblatt,
which announced "an overall European solution to the Jewish problem" and
the deportation of Jews from Rumania. On July 22, 1942, Richter obtained
Vice-Premier Mihai Antonescu's agreement to begin the deportation of Jews
to Poland in September. However, as a result of the efforts of the
clandestine Jewish leadership and the pressure exerted by diplomats from
neutral countries, as well as by the papal nuncio, A.
Cassulo, Ion Antonescu canceled the agreement. He could afford a measure
of independence, since Hitler was then seeking the mobilization of
additional divisions of the Rumanian army against the Soviet Union.
Nevertheless, Eichmann's Bucharest office, working through the local
authorities, succeeded in contriving the deportation of 7,000 Jews from
Chernovtsy and Dorohoi and groups from other parts of Rumania to
Transnistria because they were "suspected of Communism" (they were of
Bessarabian origin and had asked to return to the Soviet Union in 1940),
had "broken forced-labor laws," etc.



Fifty-seven percent of the Jewish population under Rumanian rule during
the war (including the Jews of Bessarabia and northern Bukovina) survived
the Holocaust. The following statistics give the death toll. Out of a
prewar Jewish population of 607,790, 264,900 (43%) were murdered. Of this
number, 166,597 perished during the first period of the war, 151,513 from
Bessarabia and Bukovina and 15,064 from part of Old Rumania. The rest died
during the deportations to Transnistria or in the camps and ghettos of
this region: some were murdered; others died in epidemics, of famine, or
of exposure. In areas from which Jews were not deported, 78.2% of the
Jewish population were left without a livelihood
as a result of the discriminatory measures up to 1942, the date at which
statistics were last calculated. The demographic effect was that the ratio
of
births to deaths fell to 34.1% in 1942 from the 1934 figures of 116.5%.



No bones, no graves, only a starting point.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:21 EDT 2001
Article: 901804 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips to Johann Sebastian ...
Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 22:23:11 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 56
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In article <3B334568@MailAndNews.com>, Gustave Morgan
 wrote:

> >===== Original Message From "Richard G. Phillips"  
> =====
> >Sir:
> >
> >Since making your appearance on this NG, you have regaled us with tract
> >after tract intoning the indictments against former officials of the
> >National Socialist German regime of 1933-45.
> >
> >Many of these officials paid with their lives or with long prison
> >sentences.
> >
> >Moreover, they are the officials of a nation that
> >
> >--Suffered TOTAL military defeat
> >--Has long accepted the fact of that defeat
> >--Has done everything within the power of living men to make amends  for
> >the wrongs attributed to the 1933-45 regime.
> >
> >In view of the above, may I ask: just what is your purpose in
> >reiterating these things more than half a century after the events?
> 
> 
>       I think I know the answer. The Bot keeps citing those bogus judgments 
> of 
> the Allied military tribunals because that's all the Holocaust hustlers have 
> left, that and their unflagging ethnic hatred of Germans and their bigotry 
> against Catholics.  Every piece of evidence they offer has been shown to be 
> either fraudulent or of no probative value. All the so-called eyewitness 
> testimony has been shown to be implausible, impossible, contrived, forged, 
> patently false, or openly bought and paid for like so much pornography.  
> Every 
> scientific study they have presented has been shown either to actually 
> disprove the Holocaust stories or to be fabrications so clumsy and obvious 
> as 
> to be laughable.  Holocaust promoters repeat the pseudolegal garbage of the 
> Allied kangaroo courts in the hope that readers will think they carry some 
> authority, some weight because they were concocted by puppets clothed in 
> quasi-judicial robes.  When interested readers learn what really went on at 
> those cruel charades and realize what a travesty was perpetrated by the 
> victorious Allies, they will realize they have been duped all these years 
> into 
> believing German atrocities that never happened.  They will realize there 
> was 
> no Holocaust.
>   


Gee, thanks for telling me. I had been hoodwinked into thinking that
the recent Irving vs. Lipstadt/Penguin Books had demonstrated quite
conclusively that Holocaust denial wasn't worth a bowl of warm spit.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:21 EDT 2001
Article: 902081 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.flame.niggers,soc.culture.african.american
Subject: Re: Crime and "Skin Color" (was White Nationalism is based on NOTHING)
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:41:51 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 31
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In article , Alex Vange 
wrote:


>   According to the FBI Oct.(1993). Uniform Crime Reports Blacks are 22 times
> more likely to kill Whites than Whites are to kill Blacks.
> 

According to the history of the 20th century, with WW I, WW II, the
Holocaust, Communism, and colonialism, Whites killed about 120,000,000
other whites and at least 15,000,000 Blacks. The number of Whites
killed by Blacks within the framework of these historical events hardly
adds up to 1,000,000. Blacks have probably killed something in the
range of 20,000,000 Blacks in the various wars and conflicts that have
marked the history of 20th century Africa.

White on White: 120,000,000
White on Black:  15,000,000
Black on White:   1,000,000
Black on Black:  20,000,000


Whites have killed other whites with such enthusiasm that they are the
only race in history to have murdered themselves into a negative growth
rate. Whites made up about 1/3 of the planet's population in 1900, now
they account for less than 10% and, due to a birth rate lower than the
death rate, their percentage is diminishing. No other race in recent
history has been so murderous, to itself and other races alike.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:21 EDT 2001
Article: 902106 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Race, Biology and Crime
Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 16:29:40 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
Lines: 53
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In article <5XNO6.2$633.15479@news1.i1.net>, Alex Vange 
wrote:


>     All IQ tests have proven that Whites are on average much more
> intelligent than Blacks. White people invented just about everything
> important. Most leftists admit that Whites on average score higher on the
> tests. They have their excuses for it, but all of their excuses are
> demolished in "My Awakening" by David Duke. Here is an example:

If this is true, don't Black people have as much right to vent their
frustration at their plight, as certain Whites do about the fact that
Ashkenazic Jews have, according to IQ tests, the same 15 point
advantage over other Whites as Whites have over Blacks. Whites have
reacted to their frustration at Jews outsmatering them at every turn by
trying to expell them from their societies or exterminate them
completely.


>      Russia did not always have a breakdown of social controls. Africa
> always did, except when White people were in control. The racial conclusion
> is absolutely correct.

Certain parts of Africa - Timbuktu, Egypt, Nubia, Songhai, Benin, Ghana
- appear to have been thriving and orderly societies. Egypt, which you
consider White, but which was actually a mixed-race society with its
cultural, linguistic, and demographic origins deep in tropical Africa
(cf. http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/runoko.html), started to collapse after
some 4,000 years of relative stability, when invaded by the Persians,
the Greeks, and the Romans. Russia has never been a successful society:
the "order" imposed by the Communists came at the price of more than
60,000,000 Russians being killed by the communist system. Many Russians
thought, and continue to think, that it was a price worth paying,
considering the disorder that preceded and followed it. Only among a
small subset of the Caucasian race, specifically those living in
North-western Europe, do you have a relatively consistent history of
prosperous and well-functioning societies. Much of that was the result
of conquest and colonial exploitation of other races. "White" countries
that made the mistake of colonizing their less fortunate "Whiet"
neighbors, such as Germany, Hungary, Italy, and Turkey have not fared
as well. Those who were colonized, but did not colonize, such as
Albania and Ukraine (50,000,000 white people), have standards of living
statistically comparable to Africa in climates that require a
considerable to be set aside for heated housing, warm clothes, and food
with a high caloric content.

Seeing race as the determining factor conveniently ignores that an
almost all black country like Bahamas has a living standard almost as
high as Germany's, while that of giant almost all-white Ukraine is
comparable to that of Ghana.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:22 EDT 2001
Article: 903396 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Race, Biology and Crime for Mr. Mock
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 20:43:24 +0300
Organization: University of Helsinki
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In article <3B0FD05C.12B84A0E@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:


> ======================================
> Phillips
> 
> (1) I was speaking of the ordinary white man's rage against affluent blacks
> - not agaisnt Jews, althoguh I believe that also is on the rise.

The affluent black is helping the ordinary white and everybody else in
the US by paying a higher tax rate and buying or investing more, both
of which activities are taxed, than his/her indigent cousin could.
American society as a whole gains from every penny paid in taxes, for
which reason it should encourange those who can command a higher income
to earn legally what is theirs. If some blacks are using their heads,
education, or entrepreneurial skills to earn good money, rather than
drawing welfare, selling drugs, and living on food stamps, why the hell
should "ordinary white men" be enraged by this? Please don't answer by
telling me that blacks are as wiley as the stereotypical Jew, and that
they are also out to swindle the average white man.

P.S. I live in country, Finland, with a standard of living
approximately 2/3 of that of the US. I am in the top 5% income bracket,
and pay taxes accordingly. I also work in Estonia, a country with an
atandard of living 1/6 that of the US. There, the salary I command puts
me in the top 1% income bracket. In both countries the income I earn is
taxed according to the laws of the land, and my contributions to the
national treasuries of the two countries play some role in helping a
lot of ordinary and less fortunate folks have a better life.


> ======================================
> Phillips
>  
> (2) One reason you dont' hear such talk is that it can be very dangerous to
> utter it - in the workplace of all places. It's about the quickest way to
> get yourself fired.
> 
> ============================================

You are on record as being a person who decries black rage at a
situation where whites have it somewhat easier earning a high salary
than blacks - and avenge themselves by criminality - while you admit
that the same feeling holds among whites with respect to Jews and the
relatively small subset of blacks that succeed in the same way with
respect to the plain vanilla white. Why is the white man's rage more
acceptable than the black man's rage? If a persopn - Jew, black,
Chinese, woman - earns a high salary, (s)he pays more of his/her income
in taxes, thus benefitting the entire society. I can't see why whites,
stereotypically superior in their ability to assess the future and plan
ahead, should be outraged that the people in the highest income
brackets contribute the largest part of their income to society as a
whole.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:22 EDT 2001
Article: 903659 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Phillips to Holman - MOre on why the unrich don't like the rich
Supersedes: <270520011319386076%holman@elo.helsinki.fi>
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 13:41:21 +0300
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In article <3B10289E.41C4CE3E@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:

> In a previous post, you pointed out that the rich pay higher taxes which
> benefits all. So why should the unrich still be resentful?
> 
> Fair question.
> 
> Everything in and about our culture functions to exalt the successful
> and to denigrate the unsuccessful. When material possessions and
> purchaseable pleasures (like Steve Wolk and his reputed kilobuck
> hookers) become the sole measure of a man, the inevitable result is to
> cause a man deprived of these things to regard himself as something less
> THAN a man.  I think I phrased it well when I pointed out that earning
> power is symbolic penis length.  This is my reply to your question: why
> is it that the unrich don't esteem the rich on account of the larger
> taxes they pay. It just does not enter the ordinary man's calculations.

That may apply for the USA, it does not apply everywhere.

> 
> There's far more to it than this. The ordinary man is perfectly aware
> that the rich DON'T pay higher taxes; indeed, in many cases they
> scarcely pay any at all. The ordinary man who works for wages or salary
> cannot forget that every solitary dollar he earns comes before the tax
> collector's scrutiny. He is also aware that, when you rise above a
> certain level, the game is played very differently. When you become the
> possessor of substantial assets all kinds of gimmicks and manipulations
> become possible. Depreciation of this, allowances for that. Poor people
> neither write the tax laws nor do they adjudicate them. Who do you
> suppose DOES this. Why do you suppose that the trades of tax lawyer and
> tax accountant are such lucrative ones.

That may apply in the USA, certainly not here. In Finland your income
and the amount of tax you pay are matters of public record. Local
newspapers publish lists of the  taxpayers in a given area, giving
their income and the amount of taxes they paid. This information is all
in a database used by the police. If you commit a minor crime, such as
a traffic violation, you are fined according to your income. This
ensures that rich people will not flout the law because the fine is
trivial:

Source: http://www.inyourpocket.com/Finland/Finland_glossary.shtml#2


Fine Fines

Caution! If you plan on speeding in this country of equality, be
prepared to pay. Fines levied for speeding 0-20km above posted limit
range from 500-700mk. If you are going more than 30km over the speed
limit, your ticket depends on your salary. Yes, you read correctly.
Even for foreigners. Speed limits in town are 40-50km/hr, outside towns
it 60-80km/h. The limit on highways is 120km/hr. 


> 
> Do you recall Leona Helmsley, the shrewish Jewish hotel boss and her
> impolitic blurt: "Only little people pay taxes." (The government was not
> amused.)

Yes. I've heard the quote. On the other hand, what she said is silly.
Every time you buy something you pay some kind of a sales tax. The more
you buy, the more indirect taxes you pay. If you are affluent enough to
buy luxury goods (including cigarettes and alcohol), you also pay hefty
excise taxes. So what Ms. Helmsley said was incendiary, but not even an
approximation of the truth.

> 
> So you see, Eugene, the tax situation does not mollify the ordinary
> man's feelings toward the rich; it exacerbates them.

Many of the problems you are thinking of could be changed. Finland is a
country dedicated to the realization of equality to the greatest extent
possible. Everybody pays taxes, everyone's income is audited,
everyone's income and taxes paid are public information. This might
conflict with American notions of privacy, but it makes it difficult
for rabble-rousers to make specious claims about people not paying
taxes or entire ethnic groups conspiring to suck the system dry.

Regards,
Eugene Holman


From holman@elo.helsinki.fi Sun May 27 12:47:22 EDT 2001
Article: 903667 of alt.revisionism
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From: Eugene Holman 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Race, Biology and Crime for Mr. Mock
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In article <3B10219E.6AD4F51C@earthlink.net>, Richard G. Phillips
 wrote:



> ===================================
> Phillips
> 
> And you will go on from there to tell us how you are competely accepted in all
> spheres of life and that the country is commendably free of "racism."
> 
> ======================================

In both Finland and Estonia the small "Negro" minorities have made
exceptional contributions to making their countries better known abroad.

Finnish-Nigerian Lola Odusoga
(http://maxiwallpapers.esmartdesign.com/lola.htm.
http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/arkisto/9610/961005/9610050104.html) was the
second runner-up in the 1996 Miss Universe beauty pageant. She was the
first and only Finnish entry to place within a generation.

Estonian-Aruban Dave Benton (http://www.songcontest.com/doc_5929.html)
played a crucial role in ensuring Estonia's unexpected victory in the
recent Eurovision song contest.

These might seem like trivial contributions: feminine beauty and music.
But a country's image is usually built on achievements that the averge
man in the street can understand. Many Europeans had never heard of
Estonia until a few weeks ago. Now the Estonian Eurovision song will be
sung all over the continent, and a stronger image of Estonia will grow
>from what has happened, mutatis mutandis, a few years ago with Lola
Odusoga's Miss Finland, Miss Scandinavia, and Miss Universe second
runner-up victories.

> ===================================
> Phillips
>
> And I say to you: "Come back and tell us how well you get along there AFTER
> Finland has acquired a Negro minority of 12-14 and has had to live with it
> for a hundred years."
> 
> ======================================

I don't think the "Negro" minority here will ever be that large (unless
a regime comes to power which marginalises everyone with the slightest
trace of "Negro" blood), but it will be a fact. In the past Finland had
a large Swedish-speaking minority which many people regarded as a
problem. The issue has been resolved, and the Swedish speakers, mostly
the descendants of former colonizers, are fully integrated into Finnish
society, and their own culture and language are now regarded as a part
of the overall Finnish whole.

Finland went out of its way to acquire a significant "Negro" minority,
taking in more than 5,000 Somalis during the 1990s. One reason for this
was that Somalia had been a so-called target country which received
Finnish foreign aid, and many people there who had been educated as a
consequence of Finnish largesse wanted to seek refuge in Finland rather
than die in a civil war - certainly an understandable option. Finland
also has a long historical relationship with Namibia, former South-west
Africa. Former Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari is the "godfather" of
Namibian independence, several of the officials in the Namibian
government have Finnish names or speak Finnish, and there is a Namibian
community in Finland. 

Nobody would claim that Finnish-Somali immigrant minority relations
have been friction-free, but with no history of slavery or colonialism,
Finland is in a position to have a much more interesting and productive
black population - if you insist on classifying people by skin color -
than countries with racist and colonial histories have.

My point is that American problems with the "Negro" or "colored"
minority are a consequence of specific misanthropic policies in the
past: slavery, discrimination, and racism. In a society with a "Negro"
or "colored" which has a totally different type of historical
experience, the problems that Americans regard as natural consequences
of people of different races sharing the same country will not
necessarily emerge. What is coincidence, what is inevitable? Only time
will tell. 

Regards,
Eugene Holman



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