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From!mvanalst  Sat Dec 28 00:38:54 1996
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Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 12:38:30 -0700
From: (Mark Van Alstine)
To: (Ken McVay OBC)
Subject: Re: Swiger's Holocaust Nonesense
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(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:

In article <>, (Cliff
Swiger) wrote:

> Hi Ken:
> >Hitler planned the systematic rape of Eastern Europe, and his
> >concept of "living space" played a large roll. Hitler was quite
> >clear about his plans; if you are interested in learning the truth
> >(Mr. Swiger's past performance suggests he is not, but there are,
> >after all, others here who are), you might wish to peruse
> >
> >as a good starting point.
> Look, I agree that Hitler believed in the sword making way for the
> plow. 

Indeed. In Auschwitz, for example, Jews were murdered in the gas chambers,
their bodies incinerated, and their remains spread over the camp farms.
And the Einsatzgruppen, lest we forget, buried their victims in mass

> And, I agree with him 100%. 

WHy am I not suprised? 

> So I don't pull any punches when it comes to my politics. 

No need. Mr. Swiger, you are doing a _marvelous_ job of beating yourself

> We could debate forever on what is "right" and
> what is "wrong". 

Er, no. You may choose to _rant_ forever about "what is 'right' and
> what is 'wrong,' but the civilized world answered such questions at
Nuremberg fifty years ago. 

> I could certainly draw parallels between what is
> going on in Israel with the Palestinians and what Hitler wrote about
> in Mein Kampf.  

I'm _sure_ you could, Mr. Swiger! But no means do they need to be taken

> It is a pointless argument based upon one's own
> definition of abstracts. 

Er, no. The immorality of the Nazi genocide of European Jewry is firmly
based in the ethics of the Enlightenment and the morality of
Judeo-Christian epistomology. 

> There is no reality in "right" and "wrong..." 

Are you a nilihist, Mr. Swiger or merely a situational ethicist? 

> but there is reality as to whether a "Hollywood style" Holocaust occurred. 

Really? Prove it. 

> The reality is: It did not. For what its worth, I recognized
> the Holocaust as a myth BEFORE becoming a National Socialist.

That sounds more like self-delusion, Mr. Swiger. Or given, your evident
reliance  on _your_ internal beliefs to the exclusion of external events,

> You condemn Hitler, but Theodore Herzel certainly had no reservations
> about his plans now did he? Sorry for the parallel. 

A red herring, Mr. Swiger. (And a poor one at that.) Herzel didn't cause
the murder of 12 million innocents. Hitler did. 

> >Poor Mr. Swiger... he has yet to grasp the concepts involved, and
> >continues to hope that he can convince someone - anyone - that
> >modern single-body cremation statistics have anything at all to do
> >with Nazi-era crematoria statistics from places like
> >Auschwitz-Birkenau. The perception, Mr. Swiger, is that you are
> >trying a bit of tired old Nazi slight of hand.
> Is that what it is? "......old Nazi slight of hand" or priciples of
> engineering? And, it has a lot to do with the ALLEGATIONS that the
> German National Socialists somehow defied the laws of physics. 

Er, no. I believe Mr. McVay was suggesting that _you_ were trying to defy
"laws of physics" (and Reason, not to mention the historical record!) by
trying to equate "modern single-body cremation statistics" with "Nazi-era
crematoria statistics from places like Auschwitz-Birkenau" (i.e. with the
continuous multi-body incinerations as practised in the Nazi concentration
camp system.)   

> People like you think if you torture enough individuals and get confessions,
> pile up reams of forged documents and have sentences handed down from
> kangaroo courts and star chambers you can change gravitational
> acceleration from 9.806 m/s2 to 25 m/s2. 

Mr. Siger, no where did Mr. McVay suggest such a thing. That is a peurile
(and fallacious) ad hominem on _your_ part. Nothing more. Tsk tsk, Mr.

> It just doesn't work that way, Ken. Science catches up with you in the
end......And the end is near for your Holocaust fiction.

Indeed! Perhaps you should refrain from such "fictions" about the
Holocaust in the future, Mr. Swiger? Your (non-existant) credibility can
only go up if you were to so restrain your (wagging) tongue.... 

> >The history of the Holocaust, as Mr. Swiger knows (but would
> >rather you did not know) is certainly not based upon eyewitness
> >testimony. It is, however, based - like all historical events -
> >upon the convergeance of evidence. In this case, most of the
> >evidence has been provided by the Nazis themselves, as Mr. Swiger
> >most certainly knows, since he's been trying to peddle his
> >nonsense for some time now. German trials, Nazi documentation is
> >copious to the point where it is probably fair to say it may well
> >be another century before it has all been sifted by scholars
> >seeking more information.
> I want you read what George A. McDonough had to say about the trials
> in post WW2 Germany. McDonough served BOTH as a prosecutor and a
> defense counsel.

And what trials, specifically, were these that Mr. McDonough took part in,
Mr. Swiger?  

> "...........Hearsay evidence was admitted indiscriminately and sworn
> statements of witnesses were admissible regardless of whether anybody
> knew the person who made the statement or the individual who took the
> statement. If a prosecutor considered a statement of a witness to be
> more damaging than the witness' oral testimony in court he would
> advise the witness to go back to his home, submit the statement as
> evidence, and any objection by defense counsel would be promptly
> overruled."

And the full citation to where  Mr. McDonough's statement can be found is,
Mr. Swiger? In what context did Mr.McDonough make the above statement?   

> Certainly this is out of line with Western jurisprudence. But, I'm not
> here to cry about the injustices doled out at the "trials." 

Really? Sure sounds like you are crying about alleged "injustices," Mr.
Swiger. Why else have you gone to such "effort" to dredge up an
_unattributed_ (and hence not easily verifed) stateement allegedly made
by  George A. McDonough? 

> Most everyone now knows they were a total farce and disgrace. 

And your evidence of this is, Mr. Swiger? Considering that, for example,
students in the U.S. are (and have been since the Nuremberg trials) taught
otherwise, I find your claim without merit. 

> You assert yourself with the statement that "most of the evidence has been
> provided by the Nazis themselves,...." Well, if judicium semper pro
> veritate accipitur applies in all instances, then the Puritains in
> early America PROVED that there were witches,..... and humans
> copulated with the Devil! 

Your assertion, Mr. Swiger, is of course fallacious. There is no
commonality, whether it be in the evidence or jurisprudence between, for
example, the Salam Witch Trials and the Nuremberg Trials. 

> Certainly so since the theocracy had plenty of testimony, witnesses and 
>  confessions. 

Mr. Swiger, you seem to have "forgotten" that the veritable mountain of
_docmentary_ evidence, for example, "provided" by the Nazis in relation to
their pogrom of genocide, was made _during_ the war. 

> My appeal is to common sense. Particularly with the Germans today 
> who have been lied to and abused  by Jewish Holocaust mythologists.
> Wahrheit Mact Frei! 

No, your's is an (unfounded) appeal authority, Mr. Swiger. Not to mention
an ad hominem appeal to emotion.

> >400,000 pages of captured Nazi documentation has recently come to
> >light in Hungary, for instance, which documents the deportation of
> >Hungarian Jewry... no eyewitness testimony needed, as the SS did a
> >fine job on their own of documenting their crimes.
> A peurile attempt at euphemism. 

Er, no. A statement of fact, Mr. Swiger. A euphemism would be, for
example, to say: "The Nazis themselves provided veritable mountain of
_docmentary_ evidence to their crimes." 

The "peurile attempt[s]" (at Nazi apologia) are left to you, Mr. Swiger.

> How many times do we have to clobber this one into the ground, Ken? 

How many _more_ times are you willing to be "clobbered," Mr. Swiger? 

> The NSDAP had every intention of "exterminating" Jewry within the the Reich.

Indeed. Mr. Swiger, not only did the Nazi have every intention of
physically exterminating the Jews in Germany, but in _all_ of Europe as
well! They very nearly suceeded too. In some countries, Poland for
example, they _did_ for all purposes succeed. European Jewry, and its
culture, in Eastern Europe _was_ destroyed.  

> To do this it was necessary to deport Jews from German territory. 

Yes, to the Ostland. Which was Poland (where the Reinhard death camps and
Auschwitz were located) and Russia (where the Einsatzgruppen operated).
Interesting, is it not, Mr. Swiger that many of the Jews _east_ of Poland
were _also_ shipped to the Ostland (i.e. Poland), which was to the

It is also worth note in this regard, Mr. Swiger, that Hitler wrote:

"If the National Socialist movement really wants to be consecrated by
history with a great mission for our nation, it must be permeated by
knowledge and filled with pain at our true situation in this world; boldly
conscious of its goal, it must take up the struggle against the
ainlessness and incompetence which hithero guided out German nation in the
line of foreigh affairs. Then, without consideration of 'traditions' and
prejudices, it must find the courage to gather out people and their
strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its
present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also to
free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others
as a slave nation.

"The National Socialist movement must strive to eliminate the
disproportion of our population and our area- viewing this latter as a
source of food as well as a basis for power politics -between our
historical past and the hopelesness of our present impotence...." (Hitler,
_Mein Kampf_ (translated by Ralph Manheim), pp.645-646.) 

Hitler continues:

"...In contrast to the conduct of the representatives of this period, we
must again profess the highest aim of all foreign policy, to wit: to bring
the soil into harmony with the population. Yes, from the past can we only
learn that, in setting an objective for our political activity, we must
proceed in two directions: Land and soil as the goal of our foreign
policy, and a new philosophically established, uniform foundation as the
aim of political activity at home." (Ibid. p.649.) 

And how much "land and soil" is Hitler talking about? Not the restoration
of the borders of 1914 Germany:

"The boundries of the year 1914 mean nothing at all for the German
future...." (Ibid. 651.) 

Not tomention that  Hitler was obviously willing to _take_ others' "land
and soil" by force:

"...Just as our ancestors did not recieve the soil on which we live today
as a gift from Heaven, but had to fight for it at the risk of lives, in
the future no folkish grace will win the soil for us and hence life for
our people, but only the might of a victorius sword." (Ibid. p.653.) 

But _where_ was this "land and soil" to be found? 

"...For it is not in colonial acquisitions that we must see the solution
of this problem, but exclusively in the acquisition of a territory for
settlement, which will enhance the area of the mother country, and hence
not only keep the new settlers in the most intimate community with the
land of their origin, but secure for the total area those advantages which
lie in its unified magnitude..." (Ibid. p.653.) 

Clearly, Hitler is talking about "aquiring" land adjacent to Germany. But
where? Again, according to Hilter:

"And so we National Socialist consciously draw a line beneath the foreign
policy tendancy of our pre-War period. We take up where we broke off six
hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and
west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the east. At long last we break
off the colonial and commercial policy of the pre-War period and shift to
the soil policy of the future. 

"If we speak of soil in Europe today, we can primarily have in mind only
Russia and her vassal border states." (Ibid. p.654.) 

Bingo! Hitler has made it crystal clear that his _Lebensraum_ policy is
aimed at Russia (and Poland, et al.) and that that he will take those
lands by military aggression and conquest. 

Therefore, Mr. Swiger, your claim that "it was necessary to deport Jews
from German territory" is exposed for the (Nazi apologia) strawman it is.
If Hitler found it unnacceptable that Jews remained in German territory,
would it not be _equally_ unnacceptable that Jews remained in "aquired"
(i.e. conquered) German territory? Of _course_ it would! Did not Hitler
say that "the solution" of the land "problem" would be solved "exclusively
in the acquisition of a territory for settlement?" Settlement by the Volk
(i.e "Aryans")? 

Given the above, Mr. Swiger, why were the Jews of Europe shipped to
Poland? To the newly "aquired" German territory meant for _German_ (i.e
"Aryans") settlers? Where did all the Jews who were shipped to Poland (not
to mention the Polish Jews!) vanish to? 

> But this forced deportation did not occur until World Jewry declared war on 
> Germany.

And where was this country of "World Jewry" located, Mr. Swiger? When did
"World Jewry" "declare war" on Nazi Germany? What armies did "World Jewry"
threaten the Third Reich with? And how is the genocide of the European
Jews even remotely justified by this "World Jewry declaration of war"
stalking horse of yours?  

> Prior to this, International Zionists collaborated with Adolf Hitler
> to have the Jews relocate to Palestine. You know all about this but,
> for your own personal motives, you won't admit it. 

Indeed Zionists did "collaborate" with Germany (and with England) in
regard to the emmigration of German Jews to Palestine. Are you somehow
suggesting, Mr. Swiger, that this somehow mitigates the genocide of the
European Jews by the Nazis? 

> >Mr. Swiger is, of course, invited to discuss Pressac in
> >alt.revisionism, which is the newsgroup he prefers to avoid...
> >perhaps that is because Mr. Swiger knows that his brand of
> >"history" has been seen there often enough to hold little
> >challenge - or interest - for anyone with a mind that works.
> Look Ken, you know full well that Pressac did a miserable disservice
> to your ilk. 

And what evidence do you have of this besides your own vapid assertions,
Mr. Swiger? 

> The guy has no grasp on mathematics or engineering.

Such as? 

> He tried to convince others just what mistakes Vrba and Wetzler made IN

Which were? 

> The guy is a total moron. I sincerely believe he dipped into his own
pharmacutical stock....

Tsk tsk, Mr. Swiger, ad hominens do not an argument make....

> ...Nonetheless, if I want to discuss him, I'll do it wherever I choose if 
> there are others who are interested. 

Mr. Swiger, I am _extremely_ interested in discussing the merits of
Pressac's research into the tecnique and operation of the gas chambers at
Auschwitz! So please, feel free to start "discussing." 

> >Nazi account indeed!! How gullible are we to be, Mr. Swiger?
> Fact is Ken, the "testimony" I posted is an extreme insult to the
> intelligence of most everyone. 

I'm afraid I missed this testimony, Mr. Swiger. However, considering your
obvious lack of treating the historical record in even a _remotely_
objective and honest manner, I don't hold high hopes as to said

> Its horrendous that such a contorted
> fabling would actually be admitted in a court..........even a kangaroo
> court. What is absolutely sickening is that German military personnel
> were actually imprisoned or executed based upon such idiotic
> attestations. 


Really, Mr. Swiger, such _puerile_ ad hominems and appeals to emotion will
get you nowhere. I suggest you calm yourself and start using the
historical record, trather than your imagination, to base your conlusions
on. Else, people might get the impression that you are merely a (terrible)
Nazi apologist or something....

> Cliff Swiger
> Wahrheit Macht Frei

 "Today I will once more be a prophet:  If the international Jewish
financiers inside and outside Europe should again succeed in plunging
the nations into a world war, the result will be...the annhilation of
the Jewish race throughout Europe."

     - Adolf Hitler in his speech to the Reichstag; January 30, 1939.


"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"

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