The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/gudgel.doyal/1994/doyalg.1194


Archive/File: people/g/gudgel.doyal doyalg.1194
Last-Modified: 1995/01/03

Article 18379 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Irving
In-Reply-To: doyal@eskimo.com's message of Fri, 28 Oct 1994 02:23:05 GMT
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Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 06:30:23 GMT
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
>Read Irvings speech to see who is a pervert.

Is that really what's at issue here?

>McFee is devoid of any knowledge of 
>right and wrong by ignoring the defacto book burning by Irvings enemies. 

Interesting choice of imagery...

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18402 of alt.revisionism:
Xref: oneb alt.conspiracy:49338 alt.usenet.kooks:9488 alt.revisionism:18402
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Jews For the Preservation of Gun Ownership
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <38g7sh$t7q@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu> <1994Oct25.003237.2863@midway.uchicago.edu> <38je8b$o0k@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu> <1994Oct25.233613.6070@midway.uchicago.edu> <38lvu4$bkb@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu>
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 02:40:27 GMT
Lines: 19

Jay Maynard (jmaynard@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu) wrote:
: In article <1994Oct25.233613.6070@midway.uchicago.edu>,
: Ted Frank  wrote:
: >In article <38je8b$o0k@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu> jmaynard@admin5.hsc.uth.tmc.edu (Jay Maynard) writes:
: >>I guess, then, that you do not buy the idea that disarmament of the Jews was
: >>a necessary precondition of the Holocaust, 
: >No, I do not.  It's historical revisionism to say that Jews did not fight
: >back.

: I didn't say they didn't fight back. One need only look at the Warsaw
: Uprising to see that, even with a tiny amount of armament and a massive
: amount of courage and determination, they fought.

They fought??? What about the alleged 5,950,000 who didn't?  

Remainder edited out
 

Thomas Doyal


Article 18403 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Irving
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
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References:    
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 02:23:05 GMT
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Gordon McFee (ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:

: In a previous article, doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) says:

: >Isn't it a shame that the deniers of Real History want shut down those 
: >who don't agree with them? As long as they have th benefit you would 
: >think that if they really are in favor they would support free speech for 
: >all. But nary a peep do hou hear.  What follows is a report of David 
: >Irvings speech at Berkley after his speech in Portland.

: [rest of article deleted]

: That David Irving would not be afforded the opportunity to state his case
: is an unacceptable denial of his civil rights.  That David Irving would
: pervert history--deliberately and knowingly--is a denial of everyone's
: right to know the truth.  Two wrongs do not make a right, but they
: sometimes explain one another.
: --
: Gordon McFee ai292

: I'll write no line before its time!

Read Irvings speech to see who is a pervert.  It won't be Irving. MeFee does 
not  condemn the demonstrators who beat up on the audience and 
destroyed Irvings books.  McFee is devoid of any knowledge of 
right and wrong by ignoring the defacto book burning by Irvings enemies. 
But McFee and his friends can rationalize any situation or conduct as 
long as it suits their ends.

Thomas Doyal 


Article 18439 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9
In-Reply-To: doyal@eskimo.com's message of Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:59:45 GMT
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Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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	<393keu$qav@access4.digex.net> 
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 05:38:44 GMT
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
>I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed.  

Quite reasonable, no one, to my knowledge, claims 6,000,000 Jews were
gassed.

About 6,000,000 were KILLED, by various means.

I believe the number claimed gassed is more in the 1,000,000-2,000,000
range.

There, that's been settled amicably.

Next question?

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18453 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: irving2
In-Reply-To: doyal@eskimo.com's message of Fri, 28 Oct 1994 03:25:21 GMT
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Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
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Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 07:03:59 GMT
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
>I will restrain myself from using words like idiot, stupid...

I don't think you did such a good job restraining yourself.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 18481 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: The Consistency of the Denier Mind, part 9
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:     <393keu$qav@access4.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:59:45 GMT
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Michael P. Stein (mstein@access4.digex.net) wrote:
: In article ,
: Greg Raven  wrote:
: >I'm not the one making the extraordinary claim (that being, that the Nazis
: >murdered millions in gas chambers). You are. It is up to you and your
: >"mountain of evidence" to support this myth.

:     However, Mr. Raven is making the extraordinary claims that thousands
: of testimonies from Allied, German, prisoner and other sources were
: coerced and fabricated, and that hundreds of documents were forged, and
: that millions of Jews disappeared without a trace, and yet are still alive
: somewhere with no explanation of where they went or how they got there.  I
: think he might offer some small scrap of evidence to support some of these
: claims. 

: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

I don't believe 6,000,000 Jews were gassed.  

Thomas Doyal


Article 18559 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Persecution of SS members.
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:  <38o96j$69l@urvile.msus.edu> <38r6ci$6sr@agate.berkeley.edu>  <01NOV94.03197785.0046@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 07:53:22 GMT
Lines: 24

Keith Morrison (T08O@UNB.CA) wrote:
: In article  doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal) writes:
: >
: >The Germans lost the war. That was the crime
: >
: >Thomas Doyal Headquarters Battery 3rd IDA WW2 SN 39478666
: >
: The Nazis started the war, killed millions of innocents, ravaged
: most of Europe as a *direct* result of their leadership and fielded
: a private army that was more inclined to acts of terror than most of
: the other regular combat units, including the Wehrmacht.  *That* was
: the crime.
Last I heard the English and French declared war on Germany.  Soviet 
Russia Invaded  Poland the same time Germany did.  So Russia started the war.

Doyal@eskimo.com.  3rd Inf. Div.  Rock of the Marne

: Keith Morrison Canadian Forces CMR-ST-Jean MILE college number 19228
: rifle numbers 6L1794 723912 and 724004 and if all Americans came
: across like you, I'd shoot them too.

You've been watching too much TV. Too many of my friends got killed 
fighting a war they had no stake in. Was your service peace time?
Mine was Central Europe WW2


Article 18600 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Irving marches to the sounds of the guns
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 13:08:29 GMT
Lines: 102



Irving marches to the sound of the guns.  

David Irving is returning to Berkeley California to make another 
speech to show that he can not be intimidated.  An Arab organization 
is sponsoring his speech to be heard November 17 at 7:30 PM on the 
campus of the University of California at Berkeley. 

Another demonstration by ADL/JDL  thugs backfires.
You can be sure the next talk by David Irving will be much more 
publicized.  Whereas if he had been left alone the first time a couple 
hundred people would have heard  his message.  Do the idiots at the 
JDL/AJC organizations think they can stop an idea whose time has come?  
Will the revisionists stop because of threats?  NO WAY!
 
Following is a report of the incident in Berkeley received from the 
David Irving Fighting Fund.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Continuing his nationwide lecture tour, on October 10 David Irving 
spoke in a church hall in Portland, Oregon. It was filled to 
overflowing. There was a crowd of demonstrators outside.  He went out 
to  try to debate with them, and got spat at for his pains; the police 
arrested Alaric Brown for disorderly conduct, and evening TV showed 
the incident. 

On October 13 at the University of California at Berkeley the 
traditional enemy staged more determined violence.

Faced with their threats vocalized by Berkeley's Hillel director Rabbi 
Rona Shapiro, the university chancellor cancelled Mr Irvings hall 
contract at the Alumni House at the last moment, citing insufficient 
security resources. This forced the organizers to move the evenings's 
lecture down the street to the main meeting room of the YWCA at 2600 
Bancroft Way. 

Intimidated by hostile picketers outside the Alumni House, only 100 of 
the  original audience, some of whom had come from as far as Nevada 
and Oregon, reached the YWCA hall.

As Mr Irving was about to speak two hundred people including members 
of the Jewish fraternity Alpha-Epsilon-Pi and mobsters hired by the 
Anti-Defamation League and its strong-arm gang, the Jewish Defense 
League, arrived and stormed the building; one thug had the specific 
task of throwing over the book stables and trampling books, cassettes 
and the speaker underfoot.  Although Leslie Katz of the jewish 
Bulletin claimed afterwards that the protest was "reported organized 
by a student communist group, Young Spartacists", many of the  thugs 
were in their fifties, and the language of their leaflets was taken 
straight out of ADL literature with vicious embellishments. 

In the ensuing disturbance Mr Irving was thrown around violently, but 
exampled serious injury.  Several members of his audience were less 
fortunate and had to be taken to the hospital, to the jeers of the 
mob, as the newspapers reported.  The university's Daily Californian 
identified the "Spartacist" leader as Barbara Frank; the student 
newspaper also quoted Shadow Moyer of the International Socialist 
Organization as saying "I think what happened here as 100 percent 
justifiable."

In the ten minutes that passed before police in riot gear arrived 
damage estimated at several thousand dollars was done to the YWCA 
building: every table was splintered, its legs torn off for use as 
clubs; lamps were smashed, chairs were ruined, pictures ripped from 
walls, windows and mirrors smashed.  Tapes spilled out of smashed 
cassettes littered the floor with torn book jackets and books. "It was 
horrible, just horrible"  Katz quoted YWCA director Sharon Bettinelli 
as stating. Vicious tomcat girls wildly kicked out panels of doors as 
members of the audience tried to force them shut. A reporter of the 
Berkeley Daily Californian interviewed Mr Irving as he knelt to pick 
up the pieces and quoted him as saying:  "You can judge for yourself 
who's using the fascist methods.  what are they afraid of, free 
speech? He add (not reported by the newspaper): "You should ask who 
puts up the money to stage demos like this-and why."

Then he delivered his talk to a rapt if dishevelled audience:  one man 
had blood streaming down his forehead, the speaker himself had blood 
on the bridge of his nose-he found three pairs of spectacles in his 
pocket afterwards, of which only one was his. 

He has promised Berkeley to return: to show that we cannot be 
intimidated.
                           Thirty
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Contributions to the David Irving Fighting Fund may be made to P.O. 
Box 1707, Key West Florida 33041-1707

----------------------------------------------------------------------

               Comment by Doyal
It is expected that future cooperation between revisionists and the Arab 
community will become more extensive as the fight heats up because of 
incidences such as this one in Berkeley. 

Anyone who would like pictures of some of the demonstrators in Portland 
may e mail me to make arrangements for a video of the demonstrators and 
David Irvings speech. Be sure you specify you would like videos of the 
demonstrators.  

Doyal@eskimo.com


Article 18706 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Our old buddy, how we miss him
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <38matg$eh2@newsbf01.news.aol.com>  <3930o4$k8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <1994Nov03.233056.8964@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 05:58:20 GMT
Lines: 19

Ken Mcvay (kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca) wrote:
: In article <3930o4$k8@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> smullins@cidmac.ecn.purdue.edu (Scott H Mullins) writes:

: >Hey, speak of the devil. I was just wondering what happened to
: >our old friend. Where did Berg  go off to?

: Reincarnated as Michael Hoffman II, I suspect.

: -- 
:    /^\__/^\                 The Old Frog's Almanac 
:   / @    @ \     A Salute to That Old Frog Himse'f, Ryugen Fisher
:  (          )       Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada

:   \  ~~~~  /               

No doubt he just got bored with the drivel that masquerades  for scholarship 
by exterminationists

Doyal@eskimo.com


Article 18810 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: DR PIPER'S response to Coles lying video
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <9411070701.09VN500@banished.com>  
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 05:43:03 GMT
Lines: 18

martev (martev@gate.net) wrote:

: >                             dgannon@banished.com wrote:
: > 
: > >            Jewish Revisionist Exposes Massive "Holocaust" Fraud!
: > > 
: > >    50 More Respondents Receive a FREE COPY of this History-Making Video!
: > > 
: > >      It's good to see such an interest in this issue in so many countries;
: > > the overwhelming response thus far has given me a real geography lesson!
: > > I'm very pleased to announce the availability of 50 MORE free videotapes!

:   
Howls and screams of protest deleted here.

Get a tape and see for yourself

Doyal@eskimo.com


Article 18972 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Michael Stein, OSI, and Ken McVay
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:  
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 07:24:56 GMT
Lines: 25

Jamie McCarthy (k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu) wrote:
: wmcguire@world.std.com (Wayne McGuire) wrote:

: > Then the funding issue came up--I wish he had brought this
: > intelligence to our attention and not someone else--and the
: > question of his relations with Eli Rosenbaum.
: > 
: > What's really bugging me is his failure to give full details
: > about his relations with Rosenbaum and the OSI, and how they came
: > into being.

: Oh, for crying out loud.

: Ken McVay, October 22nd 1994:

:    Since the help Mr. Rosenbaum has provided consisted of a few
:    readily available Soviet testimonies, 
---------------------                ----------------------
Doyal@eskimo.com

They might have been readily available to Mcvay because he knew Rosenbaum 
but they  weren't readily available to anyone else.  In fact they weren't 
very available to Mcvay or he wouldn't have asked Rosenbaum for them.  

The rest cut 


Article 18973 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Hollywood Hate Propaganda
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 07:41:45 GMT
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Did everyone catch the movie on A and E cable network Sunday evening Nov 
6 about the Ghost of the saintly holocaust victim that terrorized his 
evil Nazi killer?  This thing was so bad I couldn't watch it more than a 
few minutes.  The sterotyping was atrocious    The evil killer looked 
suspiciously like Hitler.    All the other characters looked like right 
out of a kiddie cartoon.  

It appeared to be shown to prove that Hoffman was right.  And this it did 
quite well. 


Article 19058 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Doyal revises the calendar
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:   <01NOV94.03197785.0046@UNBVM1.CSD.UNB.CA>  <39k8bl$1ic@access1.digex.net>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 04:39:11 GMT
Lines: 38

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access1.digex.net) wrote:
: In article , Thomas Doyal  wrote:
: >Last I heard the English and French declared war on Germany.  Soviet 
: >Russia Invaded  Poland the same time Germany did.  So Russia started the war.

:     Then you heard wrong.  The SS faked a provocation at Gleiwitz on 31st
: August 1939; Germany invaded Poland the next day.  The French and British
: issued an ultimatum on 3rd September; since it was not obeyed, this
: constituted the declaration of war.  Russia did not cross the border until
: 17th September.  However, their seizure of eastern Poland had been agreed
: to by Germany under the secret terms of the Molotov-von Ribbentrop Pact. 
: All this can be found in Keegan, John: "The Second World War" [Viking
: Penguin, 1990], pp. 44-46. 

We know all that. So Great Britains treaty with Poland applied only to 
attack by Germany and no other country?  Nonsense. According to the treaty 
Britain should have declared war on Soviet Russia also on Sept. 17 .  All 
of Great Britains interest was in keeping Germanys influence subservient 
to Great Britains.  Britains actions were in her own interest not in 
Polands interest.  If Britain was interested in Poland she would have 
declared war on Soviet Russia too.  Britain was interested in dragging 
the rest of the world into war with Germany.  That was why she had no 
interest in declaring war on Russia. Poland certainly didn't 
agree to the take over of 
her eastern territory.    :     


: In other words, Doyal has his history 
: ass-backwards. 


: -- : Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.

But not as backwards as your twisted reasoning.
Doyal@connected.com



Article 19095 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Doyal revises the calendar
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <39sdqg$9dq@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <3a3nb8$qa5@access1.digex.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 06:25:51 GMT
Lines: 43

Michael P. Stein (mstein@access1.digex.net) wrote:
: In article <39sdqg$9dq@newsbf01.news.aol.com>,
: Wm Michael  wrote:
: >Mike, I recommend you read The Forced War by  David Hoggan, which was
: >written depending on primary source materials from the German and Polish
: >Diplomatic Offices.
: >
: >pg. 577 notes:
: >
: >	The Polish Bank Ludowy (People's Bank) maintained a lavish but
: >seldom frequented branch bank in Gleiwitz with the permission of the
: >German authorities. The personnel of this bank hoped to organize an
: >insurrection among the Polish minority in West Upper Silesia on the
: >misguided assumption that the Polish armed forces would soon enter the
: >area. Gleiwitz was only one mile from the Polish frontier, and the Bank
: >Ludowy people disappeared into Poland about the time of the incident. The
: >Gleiwitzers naturally assumed that the bank people perpetrated the
: >momentary seizure of the radio station, but the mystery shrouding the
: >actual deed has remained one of the numerous unexplained events of this
: >period.

:     Question: do you believe that this is what happened - that the bank 
: people seized the radio station?  Why or why not?

:     Note also that in any event this still in no way supports Doyal's
: ridiculous contention that the *Russians* started the war. 

: -- 
: Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
: POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
: Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
----------------------------------------------------------
Great Britain and France declared war on Germany for invading Poland. So 
who started the war?  If Germanys invsion started the war then Soviet 
Russia was as guilty as Germany even though they were only a couple of 
weeks later with their invasion.  Great Britain and France had the whole 
winter to contemplate who to go to war with as there were months of 
inactivaty before any action started after the period called the *phoney 
war*. Lets face it. Great Britain saw this as an opportunity to trash 
Germanys economic power on the  continent.  They could care less about 
Russias economic influence on the continent.  Which was nill. 

Doyal@eskimo.com  


Article 19097 of alt.revisionism:
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Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!openwx!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: On "Destroyed" Churches (was: Re: Khazars: the self-styled "Je
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3a5lvj$6ih@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <3a789e$rfr@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 06:48:03 GMT
Lines: 39

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Wm Michael  wrote:

: # The Jews have defiled and destroyed the following Church
: # buildings: 

: [long list of churches deleted]

: Since this sounded like utter rubbish to me, I've decided to run
: a random check on what "Wm Michael" wrote. Here's one example
: of a Christian institution which he claimed was "destroyed":

: # the Convent of the Sisters of Saint Ann at Haifa,

: I just called that convent. They had no idea they were "destroyed".

: # Among the countless other desecrations we might mention, none is
: # more heart-rending than that of Jerusalem's Church of the Dormition 

: I figured what the heck, called them also. I was answered by a
: friendly woman who said that one can come and visit the Church at
: the "Dormition" weekdays, 8-12 AM and 2-6 PM. There is also a 
: monastery, but it's not open for public visits.

: # The Church of Saint John the Baptist at Ain Karim

: You know - I called them too. One can visit Weekdays 8:30-12 AM
: and 2:30-5 PM. They also don't seem to know they are "destroyed".

: I'll check more institution that appear on the list of allegedly
: "destroyed" Christian institutions, and post my findings to 
: alt.revisionism.


: -Danny Keren.

Well, I called also and got the answer that the phone was disconnected. 

Thomas Doyal


Article 19098 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: www site
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3abanf$pfm@umd5.umd.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 06:51:52 GMT
Lines: 14

Stuart Michael Kreindler (smkreind@lab8.smcm.edu) wrote:

: can anyone tell me where the revisionist www site is at?  I read about  
: here about two weeks ago and neglected to save the site address.  

: thanks,

: stuart kreindler
: smkreind@oyster.smcm.edu

http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr

Doyal@eskimo.com



Article 19132 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: World wide web holocaust site
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <1706BF417S86.DEACON@VM.TEMPLE.EDU> 
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 03:14:16 GMT
Lines: 12

Charles R.L. Power (karlpov@access1.digex.net) wrote:
: DEACON@VM.TEMPLE.EDU writes:

: >Does anyone know of a www site for holocaust information?  thanks.

: Suggest you post this to soc.culture.jewish.holocaust if you don't get 
: the information here.  Seems to me that a site was recently announced, 
: but I'm a stone age fpt/listserv/gopher kinda guy, so I didn't make note 
: of it.

http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr



Article 19134 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Need Information on the Institute For Historical Review
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <3ae1fh$kef@er5.rutgers.edu>
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 03:32:53 GMT
Lines: 12

THE PLACE (wance@eden.rutgers.edu) wrote:
: I'm a journalism student at Rutgers and doing a story on Revisionism and 
: the Institute for Historical Review.  
: If someone could send me information about this or titles of
: books/magazines with this information, I would appreciate it.
: Thanks!

: WANCE@EDEN.RUTGERS.EDU

: -Eric Vitner
logon onto www http://www.kaiwan.com/~greg.ihr
Lots of good material here.


Article 19201 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: 
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 03:51:56 GMT
Lines: 61

hoffman2nd@delphi.com wrote:
: Ken McVay claims there is no persecution of revisionists in Canada. But right in
: this hypocritical, bold-faced liars own backyard, look at the persecution that
: has transpired:
:  
: The Vancouver Sun, Oct. 28, 1994: The Canadian Jewish Congress says the British
: Columbia (BC) Human Rights Council has decided to proceed against Columnist Doug
: Collins and the >>North Shore News.<< The Congress claimed in its complaint that
: a Collins column in the North Shore News violated the human rights act of BC by
: exposing the Jewish community to hatred and contempt...The March 9, 1994 column,
: entitled >>Hollywood Propaganda<< attacked the Steven Spielberg movie
: >Schindlers List< as hate propaganda.< (End Vancouver Sun article).
:  
: Mr. McVay claims there is no law in Canada which denies free speech and press
: rights to revisionists? He is dead-wrong! Here is proof that McVay is spinning
: propaganda fantasies to whitewash the crimes against freedom being committed by
: Jewish-dominated Canada:
:  
: >>Human Rights Amendment Act, 1993.
:  
: Her Majesty, by and with the advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of
: the Province of British Columbia, enacts as follows...
:  
: 2. Discriminatory publication.
: (1). No person shall publish, issue or display or cause to be issued or
: displayed, any statement, publication, notice, sign, symbol, emblem or other
: representation that...is likely to expose a person or a group or class of
: persons to hatred or contempt.<<
:  
: Under this Orwellian law, columnist Doug Collins is being prosecuted because he
: protested in print against  the exposure of the class of persons known as
: Germans to hatred or contempt in the film Schindlers List.
:  
: This is the insanely tyrannical situation in Canada today--those who protest
: Jewish hate are prosecuted for being hateful. Why?Because ANY criticism of the
: Jewish Master Class in Canada is potentially a crime. Doug Collins criticized
: the movie Schindlers List as anti-German hate propaganda. For daring to write
: that truth he must face the Inquisition.
:  
: Americans will note that this inquisition against a newspaper columnist has not
: been reported in the U.S. whatsoever (at least to the best of my knowledge). The
: blackout has been clamped. News of it in the U.S. is being suppressed so the
: Canadians can get on with the sordid business of intimidating independent
: thinkers and writers with no fear of international protest.
:  
: Meanwhile folks, take a good look at this punk McVay. His statements are about
: as truthful as that of the Soviet Encyclopedia. He makes false pronouncements,
: chants >>liar, liar<< at his critics while posing as the >>human rights
: advocate<< battling the evil >>fascists.<<
: The inquisition against journalist Doug Collins and his newspaper the North
: Shore News is fascism with a human face. The mission of people like McVay is
: strictly partisan: to weep and wail about >>fascist censorship<< while covering
: up and denying fascist censorship perpetrated by Jewish tyrants who operate in
: the name of human rights and thereby make a mockery of human rights.
: McVay, you do not have a shred of credibility left!--Michael A. Hoffman II
____________________________________________________________________

You really nailed him good Michael.  Now we can look upon his other posts 
in the same light.  With contempt.  

Doyal@eskimo.com


Article 19235 of alt.revisionism:
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Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Dershowitz and IHR
In-Reply-To: doyal@eskimo.com's message of Sat, 19 Nov 1994 03:46:36 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <5S7UkXb.declan@delphi.com> <3aibjf$jea@jabba.cybernetics.net>
	 
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 22:11:22 GMT
Lines: 20


From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
>Now if we could get Barry Shein to agree that the Journal of the IHR is 
>also a useful publication we would have progress.  Right?

Useful? Sure.

When I attended Cornell they had subscriptions to magazines like "Big
Butts" and "Leather Babes", not in general circulation, paid for by
various three-letter agencies of the US Govt.

You've got to have this stuff somewhere, never know when it might
prove useful and that would be a heckuva time to try to track down
some issue from a few years previous, etc.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19236 of alt.revisionism:
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From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Canadian Journalist Prosecuted for Criticizing Schindlers List
In-Reply-To: doyal@eskimo.com's message of Sat, 19 Nov 1994 03:51:56 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References:  
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 22:12:45 GMT
Lines: 18


>You really nailed him good Michael.  Now we can look upon his other posts 
>in the same light.  With contempt.  
>
>Doyal@eskimo.com

So *who* invaded Poland first, again?

I realize the truth is your enemy, Mr Doyal. And in this war you make
a fine cheerleader. I wonder how you look in short shorts and a
pom-pom...


-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


Article 19245 of alt.revisionism:
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From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Dershowitz and IHR
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <5S7UkXb.declan@delphi.com> <3aibjf$jea@jabba.cybernetics.net> 
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 03:46:36 GMT
Lines: 42


Barry Shein (bzs@world.std.com) wrote:

: From: pgates@cybernetics.net (Phelps Gates)
: >In article <5S7UkXb.declan@delphi.com>,   wrote:
: >>	Harvard's famous lawyer Alan Dershowitz has just discovered
: >>that Harvard's Widener Library subscribes to the Journal of Historical
: >>Review.  He said he didn't care what the subscription costs: "If it's
: >>$40 or $50 a year, then that's a reasonable price for keeping the First
: >>Amendment alive," he said.
: >>	He himself is donating a subscription to Penthouse, which
: >>carries his column, "Justice."
: >
: >In the report I saw (in today's paper), it was the subscription to
: >*Penthouse*, not the subscription to *JHR* that would be (he said)
: >a "reasonable price for keeping the First Amendment alive".
: >This puts quite a different slant on the story.  Anybody have a full
: >context quote???

:         CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (AP) -- Alan Dershowitz has offered Harvard's
: Widener Library a spicy gift in perpetuity: Penthouse magazine.
:         The Harvard law professor made the offer Nov. 10 after finding
: out the library subscribes to the Journal of Historical Review, a
: Holocaust revisionist magazine.
:         Nat Bunker, the library's bibliographer for American history,
: told The Harvard Crimson it will accept the subscription. He called
: Penthouse a ``useful publication for the library'' and noted the
: Widener already receives Playboy.
:         Dershowitz, who writes a column for Penthouse called
: ``Justice,'' said he doesn't care what the subscription costs.
:         ``If it's $40 or $50 a year, then that's a reasonable price for
: keeping the First Amendment alive,'' he said.

: -- 
:         -Barry Shein

: Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
: Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now if we could get Barry Shein to agree that the Journal of the IHR is 
also a useful publication we would have progress.  Right?


Article 19447 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!openwx!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confrontation, Irving Con
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:  <3apheo$41b@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>   <3avrcq$gnh@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:11:12 GMT
Lines: 25

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Wayne McGuire  wrote:

: # I've read enough Irving and enough Lipstadt to know that Irving
: # could intellectually crush Lipstadt in a debate on just about any
: # subject--he obviously possesses the much more powerful mind,
: # regardless of whether you agree with his conclusions about World
: # War II. He is a major historian.

: A "major historian"?

: It was posted here that he was convicted of slandering
: and lying in his books, even before he became a Holocaust
: denier. No one here denied this. 

response cut here.

If there is anyone who would really like to know what David Irving is 
really like from his own lips e mail me for details about how to obtain his 
speech in Portland Oregon on Oct. 10 of this year.  Why try to decide who 
is right from obviously biased sources. This is undedited videotape so 
you can have his version not an editors. 

Doyal@eskimo.com



Article 19448 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!openwx!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: David Irving:  Historian or Sham Artist?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <1994Nov24.062643.34630@miavx1>
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:28:28 GMT
Lines: 138

Raskolnikov (bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu) wrote:
: Well, it looks like people are out trumpeting Irving again.

: Irving is _not_ a credible historian.  

: He has no academic degree, and has never held an academic position
: with any univeristy or historical society.

: Even before he turned to Holocaust revisionism, his work was considered
: highly dubious.  His book _The Destruction of Convoy PQ17_ was shown
: to be very innacurate and slanderous.  The former captain of that
: convoy sued Irving for libel in 1970 and won a case against him in
: 1971.  

: In short, Irving has never been considered a credible historian, 
: and his work has been faulty both inside and ouside of Holocaust
: 'revisionism'.

: For those desiring more information about Irving, I have appended 
: an excellent article taken from Ken's archives.   

: This was written by Jeff Shallit.

: ---------------------
: Archive/File: holocaust/england/irving irving.shallit
: Last-modified: 1993/06/25

:    LIES OF OUR TIMES

:    Jeff Shallit

:    ...

:    3.  David Irving

:    David John Cawdell Irving is a British "historian", born in 1938.
:    According to David Cesarani of the Wiener Library in London, England,
:    he attended Imperial College at the University of London, but never
:    graduated.  He holds no academic degree and no academic position at
:    any university or college.  He calls himself a "moderate fascist",
:    and claims, among other things that the gas chambers at Auschwitz (in
:    which an estimated 1--2 million people died) were "built by the Poles
:    after the war as a tourist attraction." (For this remark, he was
:    fined DM 10,000 by a Munich court in May 1992.  The judge was quoted
:    as saying that the gas chambers of Auschwitz were "an historically
:    certain fact.")

:    Irving denies being a "Holocaust denier" or "Hitler apologist", and
:    seems willing to resort to legal action if necessary.  In a recent
:    fax printed in the K-W Record, he is reported as saying, "I have
:    warned 22 British newspapers that I shall not hesitate to commence
:    libel action if they use smear phrases such like 'Hitler apologist'
:    or 'Holocaust denier' to embellish their writings." But Bernard
:    Levin, writing in the Times of London in May of this year, quoted
:    Irving as saying, "I hope the court will fight a battle for the
:    German people and put an end to the blood lie of the Holocaust which
:    has been told against this country for 50 years."

:    Irving first entered the headlines in 1970.  In July of that year, he
:    was forced to apologize in the High Court of London for "making a
:    wholly untrue and highly damaging statement about a woman writer." --
:    not an auspicious start for someone who claims to be in pursuit of
:    the truth.  Later that year, Irving was back in the headlines,
:    concerning publication of his book, "The Destruction of Convoy PQ17".
:    Ostensibly an expose of an ill-fated 1942 Arctic convoy headed for
:    the Soviet Union during World War II, it eventually resulted in
:    Irving being fined 40,000 British pounds for libel.  Irving's book
:    faulted Captain John Broome, commander of the convoy at the time,
:    saying he was guilty of "downright disobedience" and "downright
:    desertion of the convoy." Broome brought suit against Irving for
:    false statements, and won a judgment in August of 1970.  Irving's
:    lawyers appealed, and lost in March, 1971.  The case is revealing
:    because of what it says about Irving's abilities as a historian and
:    his motives as an author.

:    According to the Times of London, Irving showed a copy of the
:    manuscript to Broome before publication.  Broome objected to the
:    accuracy of some thirty passages in the book, and threatened to sue
:    for libel if Irving did not make changes.  At that point, William
:    Kimbers Ltd., Irving's publisher, notified him that they would not
:    publish the book as it was then written.  Later, Irving published the
:    book with another publisher.

:    The court found that Irving "was warned from most responsible
:    quarters that his book contained libels on Captain Broome...  To make
:    [the book] a success he was ready to risk libel actions...
:    Documentary evidence...  showed that [Irving] had deliberately set
:    out to attack Captain Broome and in spite of the most explicit
:    warnings persisted in his attack because it would help sell the
:    book." The court labeled Irving's conduct as "outrageous and
:    shocking."

:    Irving's misrepresentations did not end with the publication of his
:    book.  According to Cesarani, in 1979, a German publisher had to pay
:    compensation to the father of Anne Frank after printing the German
:    edition of Irving's book, Hitler's War.  Irving had claimed that Anne
:    Frank's diary was a forgery.

:    Irving claims that according to his "research", the Holocaust is
:    greatly exaggerated.  (He was recently quoted in the K-W Record as
:    saying that the number of Jews who died in concentration camps was
:    "of the order of 100,000 or more.") But during the 1988 trial of
:    pro-Nazi publisher Ernst Zundel, he was forced to admit under
:    cross-examination that he hadn't even read all of Eichmann's 1960
:    trial testimony.  (In this testimony, Eichmann admitted that Nazi
:    leaders discussed the so-called "Final Solution to the Jewish
:    problem''-- extermination, in 1942.)

:    In November 1991, a reporter from the Independent showed that Irving
:    omitted crucial lines from a translation of Goebbels' diaries --
:    lines that would have contradicted his theory that Hitler knew
:    nothing about the extermination of the Jews.

:    Irving's record is clear: he is not an historian, and he has made
:    false statements and been forced to apologize for them.  As Andrew
:    Cohen, reporter for the Financial Post, has said, "David Irving
:    should be denied credibility."

: Those wishing to learn more about Mr. Irving are invited to send the 
: command INDEX IRVING to listserv@oneb.almanac.bc.ca, to obtain a list of
: available files.
: ------------------------------ Cut here ------------------------------
: -- 
: =======================================================================
: Brian Harmon         "We are most unfair to God: we do not allow
: Miami University	   	him to sin.." 
: Oxford, Ohio 45056  			-- Friedrich Nietzsche
: --------------bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu--------------------------

Find out for yourself folks what David Irving is really like for yourself 
not from his  enemies or friends.  Contact me by E mail on how you may 
obtain his speech on videotape from me in Portland Or. just before the 
riot in Berkeley where 
the JDL and friends tried to stop him from speaking.  If the JDL and 
friends don't want him to speak perhaps you would be interested in what 
he had to say.

doyal@eskimo.com


Article 19449 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: Query About Irving's Credibility
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: 
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:32:27 GMT
Lines: 23

John Baglow (ai433@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:

: Could someone post the information about Irving's selective quotation of a
: telegram which purports to show (according to him) that the German high
: command opposed the "liquidation" of Jews arriving in the East? I remember
: that he deliberately left out a sentence which changes the entire meaning
: of the text. I will reserve comment until then, except to marvel at Hugh
: Trevor-Roper's endorsement of Irving's methods. When did he utter this
: praise? H. T-R *is* a major historian, and no Holocaust-denier...

: --
: John Baglow			"Listen to the fool's reproach! it is a
: 				 kingly title!"
: 					--William Blake			


Irving spoke in Portland OR Oct 10 and although had nothing to do with 
this subject it does give you a good example of what he is really like and 
perhaps how credible he is.  For his speech on videotape you may contact 
me for the details about how to obtain it by sending me an e mail request.

doyal@eskimo.com
 


Article 19450 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!openwx!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: McGuire and Irving (was: Re: In Dramatic Confronta
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References:  <3ato2e$58u@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> <5y5Ud8d.hoffman2nd@delphi.com> <3b2auo$rht@info.census.gov> <3b2g1i$amj@cat.cis.Brown.EDU>
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:43:57 GMT
Lines: 27

Danny Keren (dzk@cs.brown.edu) wrote:
: Wayne, are you willing to address David Irving's outright lies,
: which I quoted here today?

: And are you willing to address his incredibly stupid "analysis"
: of Eichmann's memoirs? I posted about it yesterday, and you
: didn't respond.

: I'll be happy to repost about these two topics, if you missed my
: original articles.

: It was posted here that Irving was taken to court and convicted
: for lying and slandering people in his books even before he became a 
: Holocaust denier. Care to comment?


: -Danny Keren.

Find out what David Irving is really like by e mailing me for details on 
how to obtain his speech in Portland OR which he gave just before the JDL 
instigated riot tried to shut him down in Berkeley CA.  This videotape 
just blows Keren and his nonsense away. 

doyal@eskimo.com 





Article 19452 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!news.bc.net!news.mic.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!eskimo!doyal
From: doyal@eskimo.com (Thomas Doyal)
Subject: Re: David Irving's _Hitler's War_
Message-ID: 
Organization: Eskimo North (206) For-Ever
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
References: <1994Nov24.143538.34644@miavx1>
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 14:59:16 GMT
Lines: 24

Raskolnikov (bpharmon@miavx1.acs.muohio.edu) wrote:
: For those of you who are curious about the quality of
: Irving's work, I have included a short excerpt from 
: Lucy Dawidowicz's book _The Holocuast and the Historians_

(text cut)


: <35> His first book, The Destruction of Dresden (London: W. Kimber, 1963),
: caused a sensation by its accusation that the Anglo-American raids on
: Dresden in February 1945 constituted a major war atrocity. Irving's book,
: which exaggerated threefold the number of deaths that actually occurred 

David Irving certainly has as much authority to estimate the deaths in 
Dresden as this critic.  Who sets this critic up as the authority to know 
how many died in the Dresden raids?

For the real David Irving e mail me for a copy of his speech he gave in 
Portland OR Oct 10, 1994.  This is an unedited video of his speech.  No 
need to try to decide about David Irving from his enemies or his friends.

doyal@eskimo.com

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