From mcurtis@inetport.com Sat Dec 28 11:58:17 PST 1996
Article: 89568 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 16:09:45 GMT
Reply-To: mcurtis@inetport.com
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>
>
>>>>>
>>>  And that she correctly evaluated those "rumors" to be correct, and
>>  >>  continued in her selections with that knowledge.
>>  >>  
>

Blackmore:
>Comment:  Your explanation is weak.  How could she evaluate these rumors to
>have been correct without any evidence? 

You speak of others as blind and you never look at yourself? I see
that you conveniently snipped all of the testimony. I guess it is
easier for the great A making history student to comment on my
comments without the testimony rather than use the testimony as a
buttress for his own proof or refutation. Let's bring some of Grese's
testimony back and add some other SS testimony.

Grese testimony From _The Belsen Trial_ pages 250-1:

What were the prisoners supposed to do when the whistle went? -- Fall
in in fives, and it was my duty to see that they did so. Dr. Mengele
then came and made the selection. As I was responsible for the camp my
duties were to know how many people were leaving and I had to count
them, and I kept the figures in a strength book. After the selection
took place they were sent into "B" Camp, and Dreshel telephoned and
told me that they had gone to another camp in Germany for working
purposes or for special treatment, which I thought was the gas
chamber. I then put in my strength book either so many for transfer to
Germany to another camp, or so many for S.B. (Sonder Behandlung). It
was well known to the whole camp that S. B. meant the gas chamber.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Were you told anything about the gas chamber by your senior officers?
-- No, the prisoners told me about it.

You have been accused of choosing prisoners on these parades and
sending them to the gas chamber. Have you done that? -- No; I knew
that prisoners were gassed.



We also had the post using Robert Lifton's book which discussed the
use of language. Much of this language is used in Grese's testimony.
One word is not used and that is Blackmore's "rumor." 

What of Kramer? How did he put things. 

_The Belsen Trial_ page 157-158

[Josef Kramer is being questioned by his defense council Major
Winwood]

When you arrived at Auschwitz who was the Kommandant of the whole
camp? -- Obersturmbannf"hrer Hoess. I was a very large camp and was
subdivided into Camp Nos. 1, 2 and 3. I was Kommandant of Camp No. 2,
Birkenau.

Will you explain to the Court how it is that, in the first statement
you made, you said the allegations referring to gas chambers, mass
executions, whipping and cruelty were untrue? -- There are two reasons
for that. The first is that in the first statement I was told that the
prisoners alleged that these gas chambers were under my command, and
the second and main reason was that Pohl, who spoke to me, took my
word of honour that I should remain silent and should not tell anybody
at all about the existence of the gas chambers. When I made my first
statement I felt still bound by this word of honour which I had given.
When I made the second statement in prison, in Celle, these persons to
whom I felt bound in honoour -- Adolf Hitler and Reichsführer Himmler
-- were no loner alive and I thought then that I was no longer bound.

Did Kommandant Hoess say anything to you about the gas chambers? -- I
received a written order from him that I had nothing to do with either
the gas chambers or the incoming transports. The Political Department
which was in every camp had a card index system of prisoners and was
responsible for personal documents and for any sort of transports or
incoming prisoners. At Auschwitz the Political Department was also
responsible for all the selectionsfrom incoming transports for the gas
chamber. In the crematorium the S.S. and prisoners--Sonderkommando--
were under the command of the Kommandant of Auschwitz, Hoess. As the
place where the transports generally arrived was in the middle of my
own camp I was sometimes present at their arrival. The people who took
part in supervising and who were responsible for the security were
partly from Auschwitz No. 1, and partly from my own camp at Birkenau,
but the selection of these people who had to supervise was done by the
Mommandant of Auschwitz No. 1. The actual selections of the internees
were made only by doctors. Those who were selected for the gas
chambers went to the different crematoria, those who were found to be
fit for work came into two different parts of my camp, because the
idea was that in a few days they were to be re-transferred to
different parts of German for work.

[ . . .]

What did you think of the whole gas chamber business? --I asked
myself, "Is it really right about these persons who go to the gas
chambers, and whether that person who signed for the first time these
orders will be able to answer for it?" I did not know what the purpose
of the gas chamber was.

Now on to the cross-examination by Major Backhouse [page 174]:

I suggest to you that you went on lying about the gas chamber until
you were shown a photograph which had been taken of one at Natzweiler,
and that was the first time you admitted the existence of such a
thing? -It was not so, because between the two statements I was not
asked any more.

[ . . .]

What was the purpose of the Natzweiler camp? --To let prisoners work
in a quarry near by?

Were the prisoners not regularly supplied from that camp to Strasbourg
for experiments? --No.

Was there no gas chamber there before you arrived? -- No.

Was it constructed under your instructions and did you quite
deliberately gas 80 prisoners in that gas chamber? --Yes, on the
orders of Reichsführer Himmler.

[. . .]

Did you force these people into the gas chamber yourself? -- Yes.

Did you actually put the gas in yourself and watch them inside asthey
died through a peephole you had made? -- No.

[ . . .]

Did you not describe that the women continued to breathe for about
half a minute? -- One could hear that. It was not necessary to
observe.

Were you not chosen as Kommandant of Birkenau because you had proved
yourself willing to do this sort of thing? -- No, I do not think so,
because I got a special order that I had nothing to do with either
crematoria or transports.

When Kommandant Pohl demanded your word of honour not to talk about
the gas chambers, why was it that you could not tell anybody if it was
all legally proper and above board? -- I do not know. Nothing could be
said about concentration camps in the outside world.

[ . . .]

Was the purpose of the gas chambers not a part of the determination of
your Party to try and exterminate the Jewish race and all the
intelligent people of Poland? -- I do not know.

[ . . .]

{Page 181 Kramer is questioned by the Judge Advocate}

When a Jew was gassed and cremated at Auschwitz was any official
record made in the records of the country of that person's death? -- I
do not think so. All these things were done by the Political
department of Auschwitz No. I.

[Page 183 Colonel Backhouse cross-examines Mrs. Rosina Kramer.]

You said that Hoess had been sent to Auschwitz for the incoming
transports. what transports were these? -- I believe these were the
transports which were destined for the gas chambers.

You knew about the gas chambers, then? --Everybody in Auchwitz knew
about them.

[Everybody . . . knew about them." Sounds like Grese doesn't it. what
a rumor, eh, folks?]

[Page 184 Dr. Fritz Klein, SS doctor, is being examined by his
council, Major Winwood]

What happened to those people whom the doctors selected asd unfit for
work? -- The doctor had to make a selection but had no influence on
what was going to happen. I have heard, and I know, that part of them
were sent to the gas chambers and the crematoria.

[ . . .]

Was your work completed when you had divided the transports into fit
for work and unfit? -- Yes.

Did you ever go down to the gas chamber yourself? -- Yes, once, when
it was not working. I had no duties to perform there.

What was your personal opinion about this gas chamber business? I did
not approve, but I did not protest because it was no use at all.

[ . . .]

[Page 186-187 Kein is cross-examined by the Prosecution, Col.
Backhouse.]

Dr. Klein, you are an educated man and were educated at a non-German
university. When you went to Auschwitz and found these transports of
people being taken to the gas chambers and being killed, did you not
realize that that was murder? -- Yes.

Is it not true that those who were not fit for work were simply
destroyed? -- Yes.

[ . . .]

When the Hungarian transports arrived was the gas chamber working day
and night then? -- It might have been.

Were they sent to the gas chamber?  -- I do not know exactly, but I
believe so.

[Page 191, Examination by the prosecution of SS member Peter
Weingartner]

Were not the people who were selected for the gas chamber taken down
the road right along the side of the women's camp where you were
working, to get to the crematoria? -- Yes, I have seen people there,
but whether they went to the bath-house or the crematorium I cannot
say.

[Page 196-197 and the examination of S.S. member Franz Hoessler]

Did you have to attend selections for the gas chamber? -- Yes, I
attended these selections because I had to guard the prisoners. I did
not make selections myself, and there were no selections without
doctors.

Will you explain exactly what happened when the transports arrived in
the camp? -- The transport train arrived at the platform in the camp.
It was my duty to guard the unloading of the train and to put the S.S.
sentries like a chain around the transport. the next job was to divide
the prisoners into two groups, the women on the left, the men to the
right. Then the doctors arrived, and they selected the people. The
people who had been selected by the doctors and found to be fit for
work were put on one side, the men and the women. The people who were
found to be unfit for work had to go into the trucks, and they were
driven off in the direction of the crematorium. . . . .

[ . . .]

Did this mean [people in quarantine] that they were to be sent to the
gas chamber? -- No, but I believe that the witnesses must have thought
that those people would come into this banned Block 25, which really
did lead into the gas chambers.

*************************

> Impossible, and I am surprised that
>you attempt to use this poor example as evidence.--rb
>

If you need futher *evidence* I can keep going down the list of
testimony by SS guards and officers. We will find that none of them
didn't understand what was happening in Birkenau as far as the gas
chambers are concerned. I also submit to you that Kramer would have
really looked the fool if he stuck to his no gas chambers testimony.
Maybe you can finally see this. I think the readers of this group can.

>  
>>  [I will make a comment here and now and again to make clear what has
>>  been going on prior to her testimony. She does not deny the slection
>>  parades as defined by the court. She is familiar with the various
>>  parades. some of these are calls to select work parties. Some were
>>  roll calles or Appelle. Some were attended only by Jews and these were
>>  the special treatment parades. Non-Jews did not form up for these
>>  particular parades. So follows the next question.]
>
>
>This is your interpretation.--rb

Nat all. Mr. Blackmore knows quite well that the interpretation is not
an interpretation for it is in the testimony. I can present this
testimony also if their is doubt about what I presented above. Is
there any doubt? Should I present this testimony? Anyone? Blackmore?

>
>  
>>  If anyone at all sees the word rumor, please let me know. The final
>>  statement is pretty straight forward. She knew people were being
>>  gassed. 
>
>You are stuck with the rumor, Mike, as she testified explicitly to this in
>previous testimony.

With out using the word rumor, Blackmore. She realizes also that there
were many testifying before her. she would have come off quite silly
to present this as a rumor. Which, btw, is your fabrication of the
testimony. I see that you have conveniently snipped it. Hmmmmm.

>  there is NO way she could have been sure that
>people were being gassed.

Then why use the language she did? Why say that she knew that they
were being gassed?

>  It is ridiculous to even think so, as she was
>never told of these chambers by either superiors or subordinates.  She never
>saw them.  She didn't have a clue, except by listening to the rumors started by 
>prisoners.  And if she didn't take part in selections--I suppose they would have
>stopped.

Doesn't matter. Why are you talking out of both sides of your
keyboard? They didn't stop and she participated. Tough nuts. They
would have tried someone else. But they didn't. they tried Grese. Why.
Because she participated in selections.

>  Then there is the question of 'when did she realize that people were
>being gassed?  At what point?  And so on and so forth...better to stick with the
>truth--it is easier.--rb
>

When she enter S.B. in her strength book, Blackmore, that is when she
knew. You are reading the testimony, aren't you?

> [I must comment here to aid  the weary "revisionists" in understanding
>>  the fine points of this testimony. She doesn't say "What gas chamber?"
>>  She doesn't ask what Mr. Backhouse means. In fact she didn't ask what
>>  her own defense council meant by the terms he uses. She also used the
>>  S.B. term above. It seems that even a lowly Aufseherin knew what
>>  Sonder Behandlung was.]
>
>Comment:  Again, this is your interpretation.

Not at all. Once again it is in the testimony I replaced above at the
top of this post. She doesn't ask those questions in her testimony at
all. Show me where she does if this is an interpretation. An
interpretation is something that I provide to the testimony and not a
direct comment on the testimony itself and what the testifier says or
doesn't say. 

[snipped nonsequitor about ritual murder nonsense. I see that
Blackmore stoops to this when cornered. It seems he can't deal with
THE SUBJECT AT HAND and seeks to change it to something antisemitic.]

>
> [I must comment here to aid  the weary "revisionists" in understanding
>>  the fine points of this testimony. She doesn't say "What gas chamber?"
>>  She doesn't ask what Mr. Backhouse means. In fact she didn't ask what
>>  her own defense council meant by the terms he uses. She also used the
>>  S.B. term above. It seems that even a lowly Aufseherin knew what
>>  Sonder Behandlung was.]
>
>Comment--Sorry to disillusion you, but Kramer did most certainly deny the gas chamber
>story in his first statement. 

See above.

> Only after he had been in the hands of professional interrogators
>for a while did he admit to their existence.

If so, he wasn't asked about it. He says so in his testimony I have
keyed in above. You lose again. This allusion of torture is for _you_
to prove.

>  And his alleged reason for now admiting them was
>ridiculous.--rb

So the great butz tries to say in his silly book. I can partially
agree with him. I think, and this is a suggestion, that he saw what
all the others were going to testify to. I think that to deny what
everyone else knew about would be sheer folly. so he had to come up
with some kind of regal excuse.



Mike Curtis 
E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/


From mcurtis@inetport.com Sun Dec 29 07:40:42 PST 1996
Article: 89798 of alt.revisionism
From: mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 15:15:17 GMT
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fafner13@aol.com (Fafner13) wrote:

># Grese testified that the gas chambers were rumored.
>
>"I knew that prisoners were gassed" - Irma Grese,
>in "The Belsen Trial", p. 251.
>
>
>-Danny Keren.
>
>Now, revert to her earlier testimony and show everyone here what a
>deceitful man you are.

Danny is hardly deceitful and the content of the post didn't warrent a
personal attack from the peanut gallery where it seems your posts are
originating from. It is best if the entire portion is printed. Also
Belling it should be realized that her admissions or nonadmissions
mean nothing alone. There was other very clear testimony against her
which you seem to have ignored. What else is new, eh?

>From  _The Belsen Trial_ pages 250-1:

[Questioning from Major Cranfield for her defense. This from her
DEFENSE questioning and this fact should be kept in mind]

Where did the order come from for what we call "selection parades"? --
That came by telephone from a Rapportführerin or from Oberaufseherin
Dreschel.

[ I'll leave this comment in for Mr. Giwer who seems to continually
post foolish posts about this subject. I will make a comment here and
now and again to make clear what has
been going on prior to her testimony. She does not deny the slection
parades as defined by the court. She is familiar with the various
parades. some of these are calls to select work parties. Some were
roll calles or Appelle. Some were attended only by Jews and these were
the special treatment parades. Non-Jews did not form up for these
particular parades. So follows the next question.]

When the order came were you told what the parade was for? -- No.

What were the prisoners supposed to do when the whistle went? -- Fall
in in fives, and it was my duty to see that they did so. Dr. Mengele
then came and made the selection. As I was responsible for the camp my
duties were to know how many people were leaving and I had to count
them, and I kept the figures in a strength book. After the selection
took place they were sent into "B" Camp, and Dreshel telephoned and
told me that they had gone to another camp in Germany for working
purposes or for special treatment, which I thought was the gas
chamber. I then put in my strength book either so many for transfer to
Germany to another camp, or so many for S.B. (Sonder Behandlung). It
was well known to the whole camp that S. B. meant the gas chamber.

[Which she thought was the gas chamber. Convenient. There is other
testimony from others saying that she knew very well what was going
on. In fact, most all the S.S. knew what was going on. Note also that
she said the "whole" camp knoew that S.B. meant the gas chamber. This
could be a slip on her part but she human and makes mistakes. ]

Were you told anything about the gas chamber by your senior officers?
-- No, the prisoners told me about it.

[She says the prisoners told her about it. This doesn't suggest a
rumor at all. First she entered S.B. in her Strength book. This held
the number of prisoners she had to deal with. She KNEW they were gone
and the whole camp knew that S.B. meant gas chamber. What was there
for a bunch of murderers to talk about. This is why I gave you quotes
>from  the Lifton book to ignore and hand-wave away like a typical
denier.]

You have been accused of choosing prisoners on these parades and
sending them to the gas chamber. Have you done that? -- No; I knew
that prisoners were gassed.

[This last clears it right up. Remember that she was questioned by her
OWN council. Remember that her testimony does not stand alone in a
vacuum. This was not the only accusation brought against her. There
were MANY MANY others.]


Mike Curtis 
E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/

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