The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/green.richard.j/1997/green.9711


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Wed Nov 19 10:16:51 EST 1997
Article: 149252 of alt.revisionism
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From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Self-hating Jews or sick and tired of Zionism?
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <01bcec06$e4611da0$cf718bcf@odin> <01bcf222$8006cb30$3fa1cdcd@odin>  <01bcf2f0$7032c6e0$497acdcd@odin>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 05:38:35 GMT
Lines: 183
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:149252

In article <01bcf2f0$7032c6e0$497acdcd@odin>,
Anthony Sabatini  wrote:

[snip]

>> >> Please name an example of a Jewish supremacist or a rabid 
>> >> Zionist that posts on this group.  I agree that SOG might 
>> >> deserve such an epithet, but who among the major posters 
>> >> qualifies?
>> >
>> >Who the Hell ever mentioned anything about "posters [of 
>> >this newsgroup]"?
>> 
>> So do you agree that there are no such people regularly posting 
>> to this newsgroup?
>
>First, here is the description in question:
>
>"Indeed. Notice how most Jewish supremacists and rabid Zionist swine always
>revert to the old "anti-Semitism (tm)" canard. They cravenly try to hide
>behind the skirt of Jews, but the advertisement clearly shows how Jews will
>have nothing to do with them!"
>
>When I wrote this, I was not specifically referring to anyone here in a.r.,
>but that does not mean that there is no one here who jumps on the old
>"anti-Semitism! (tm)" canard. It happens here too.

Please name an example of a Jewish supremacist or a rabid 
Zionist that posts on this group.  I agree that SOG might 
deserve such an epithet, but who among the major posters 
qualifies?

>> >> The article you posted only serves to smash your 
>> >> monolithic view of Judaism.  Jews don't agree with 
>> >> each other; that's not new.
>> >
>> >Where the Hell did you get the idea that I have a "monolithic 
>> >view of Judaism"?
>> 
>> From reading your posts occasionally.
>
>Oh. So you're just guessing based on your...'perceptions', right? Riiight.

My judgment  based on the way you present yourself.  You are partly 
responsible for the perceptions that others form about you.  If you don't 
like the way people perceive you, you can change that.

>> >> I think that you will find that the Jews in question do not 
>> >> deny the historicity of the Final Solution.

I take it that you agree?

>> >The author(s) of the ad had this to say:
>> >
>> >< begin quote >
>> >
>> >"How could the Zionist leaders and the World Jewish Congress 
>> >(a major Zionist organization) have the nerve to ask for Jewish 
>> >assets? The worldwide boycott against Germany in 1933 and the 
>> >later all-out declaration of war against Germany initiated by the 
>> >Zionist leaders and the World Jewish Congress so enraged Hitler 
>> >that he threatened to destroy the Jews. Then the Wannsee
>> >Conference convened in January 1942, decided the fate of the 
>> >Jews, and the real suffering started. The Zionists also refused 
>> >and blocked rescue efforts and food supplies during the war. 
>> >Their motto was "Rak B'Dam (Only by blood will we get the land)"
>> >
>> >< end quote >
>> 
>> I certainly disagree with the implication that Zionist are to blame 
>> for the Final Solution but note that the quote in question does not 
>> deny the basic facts of the Holocaust.  Rather, it asserts but does 
>> not demonstrate that Jews with who the disagree share some of 
>> the blame for the killing.
>> 
>> Do you find it credible that because a Jewish organization took the
>> Nazis seriously at an early date that they are responsible for what
>> happened next?
>
>I said nothing of "responsible", but clearly not all is generally known about
>this. Perhaps the Nazis had collaborators in certain Zionists. Now tell me, if
>this could be proven, how would you feel?

If it could be proven, I would regard them the same way I regard other
collaborators.  There exist more difficult cases regarding the Judenrat,
Sonderkommando etc. who were more or less in a no win situation.  Primo
Levi discusses what he calls the gray zone in _the Drowned and the
Saved_.  It's good reading and I suggest you read it.

>> >> It is no canard that those who deny and/or distort the history 
>> >> of the Final Solution are mostly antisemites.
>> 
>> >The issue here is the various ways in which Zionists create 
>> >and spread *false* instances of "anti-Semitism" (with trademark 
>> >symbol!) to further their goals. The people who wrote the ad 
>> >know this and explained it. Another example comes from one of 
>> >my favorite quotes:
>> 
>> The issue is then irrelevant to this newsgroup.  
>
>'Sez you.

Yes I do say so.  Unless you are under the misimpression that those of
us arguing for the historicity of the Holocaust are doing it for the
sake of Zionism. We are not.  People who deny history because they hate
Jews deserve to be called antisemites; wouldn't you agree?

>> The only people who get called antisemites here are people who 
>> deny, distort, or justify the Final Solution.

>In order to "deny, distort or justify the Final Solution" you have to define
>"the Final Solution". For example, if by this you mean the murder of 6 or
>million Jews, then Hilberg is certainly a "denier" and "anti-Semite" because
>he claims 5.1 million died.

On the contrary, the denial of the Final Solution has nothing to do with
how one rounds numbers or whether one corrects popular misconceptions.
It has to do with whether one claims that there is doubt
concerning the basic historical facts based upon ignorance, deceit,
pseudoscience, or pseudohistory.

If you agree with Hilberg that approximately 5.1 million Jews were
killed that about 1 million Jews were killed in Auschwitz and about
750,000 in Treblinka,  if you agree with Hilberg that Jews were rounded
up, placed into ghettos or sometimes just shot on the spot,  if you
agree that the ghettos were cleared and non-ghetto Jews were rounded up,
and if you agree that they were killed by bullets, by mobile gas vans, and
by gaschambers, then you are certainly no denier.

If you argue that the Leuchter Report is good science, if you argue that
the inaccuracy of the 4 million at Auschwitz-Birkenau has bearing on the
total death toll of 5-6 million Jews, if you argue that the fact that
the RIF story was just a rumour means that the gaschambers were just a
rumour, if you argue that _ausrotten_ doesn't mean kill, if you argue
that diesel exhaust can't kill, then you are a denier.

If you are a denier, you are either a Nazi, a Nazi-apologist, an
antisemite, or a kook.

>> >"The ADL, like the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, 
>> >has built its financial appeal to Jews on its ability to portray 
>> >the Jewish people as surrounded by enemies who are on the 
>> >verge of launching threatening anti-Semitic campaigns. It has 
>> >a professional stake in exaggerating the dangers, and 
>> >sometimes allows existing racial or political prejudices in the
>> >Jewish world to influence how it will portray the potential 
>> >dangers." - Michael Lerner, ex-ADL president, in _Jews and 
>> >Blacks: Let the Healing Begin_
>> 
>> I have no interest in defending the SWC or ADL; their policies are
>> irrelevant to the denial, distortion, and justification of the Final
>> Solution.
>
>Well, thanks for sharing that, but I *am* interested in them and will thus
>continue posting about them (and their ilk).

And who are their ilk?  The Jews?  If you don't want to be viewed as an
antisemite, you ought to clarify when you say such things.
>
>> >> Some of them are just nuts.
>> >
>> >Indeed.
>> >
>> >> [snip]
>> >
>> >Interested readers may find the entire ad at the following 
>> >Web site:
>> >
>> >> >http://www.bnp.net/torah.html

[line indicating signature snippage snipped]

Regards,

Rich Green



-- 
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Richard J. Green  
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From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Wed Nov 19 10:16:52 EST 1997
Article: 149304 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.banacek
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!137.192.241.248!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Why The Nazi's Appeared on talk.libertarian
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <19971103193200.OAA03788@ladder02.news.aol.com>  <64hd8f$14fa@navajo.gate.net> <346f35ef.0@news2.kcdata.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 03:52:52 GMT
Lines: 34
Xref: news.trends.ca talk.politics.libertarian:236136 alt.revisionism:149304 alt.fan.banacek:4375

In article <346f35ef.0@news2.kcdata.com>,
Dan Leonik  wrote:

[snip]

>>: I am not a libertarian; on the contrary I am a liberal, but I consider
>>: libertarians to be one extreme of a legitimate debate (the other extreme
>>: is democratic socialism which I object to as strongly as I do
>>: libertarianism).  Libertarians have a genuine concern for civil
>>: liberties that should not be convoluted with Nazism.  It is my view that
>>: we liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and democratic socialists have
>>: more in common with one another than we do with fascism and communism.
>>: When we blur that distinction, we are being irresponsible in my opinion.
>
>You're a strange 'liberal'. You pick and choose which group is allowed
>to debate or which is  to have the freedom of speech. That sounds like
>communism to me.

You are a liar, sir.  I explicitly argued that even Nazis should have
freedom of speech to spew their dreck.

When you demonstrate that you are literate enough to figure out how who
said what, you might merit a response.  Until then practice reading.


Best,

Rich Green

-- 
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Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Thu Nov 27 11:27:39 EST 1997
Article: 150441 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.libertarian
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.eecs.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!128.223.220.30!logbridge.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Nazifying the Germans!!
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3468d528.60265489@news.hollinet.com>  <64t9lc$g4h@lynx.dac.neu.edu> 
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:43:38 GMT
Lines: 26
Xref: news.trends.ca rec.arts.books:96181 alt.revisionism:150441 talk.politics.libertarian:239281

Hello all,

I hope that Mr. Kagalenko intends to comment on his nearly libelous
misreading of my comments.  He claims that I said that the bare facts
are not sufficient to condemn the perpetrators.  I said no such thing.
If Mr. Kagalenko is not willing to apologize for this egregious error, I
will assume that he is willingly and knowingly telling an untruth.

What I said was that facts don't speak for themselves, i.e., that
historians have a duty to interpret the facts and that their
interpretations act as filters even if they decline to act on that duty.

The facts surrounding the Final Solution are sufficient to condemn the
perpetrators.  Anyone who says that I have claimed otherwise is guilty
either of misreading or of lying.

Best Regards,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Thu Nov 27 11:27:39 EST 1997
Article: 150444 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Nizkor
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <880140164.18988@dejanews.com> <19971122173100.MAA11714@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:39:30 GMT
Lines: 32
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150444

In article <19971122173100.MAA11714@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
RWhita8200  wrote:
>>>
>>> Here we see our "non-Nazi" implying that the Nazis were innocent.
>>> If he does not wish to be called a Nazi-apologist, he should consider
>>> not being an apologist for the Nazis.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Rich Green
>>>
>
>
>   Anybody who disagrees with Poltical Correctness is A Nazi Who Wants To Kill
>Six Million Jews.

That may be your opinion, but it isn't mine.  
I suggest that you learn to read or that you learn how to tell the
truth.

Those who apologize for the Nazis are Nazi-apologists, however.

Regards,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Thu Nov 27 17:44:59 EST 1997
Article: 150485 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
Message-ID: 
Keywords: Moron
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3484fd2f.203991669@dnews.pacificnet.net> <347a7eb1.215545802@dnews.pacificnet.net> <659um7$pvg$1@news.trends.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:11:58 GMT
Lines: 27
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150485

In article <659um7$pvg$1@news.trends.ca>,
Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote:
>In article <347a7eb1.215545802@dnews.pacificnet.net>,
>tom moran  wrote:
>
>>	The Germans exterminated 20,000 Jews with an atomic device that
>>left no traces of the bodies.
>
>Perhaps Mr. Moran would care to tell us where this was established... although
>it was a topic of examination at Nurnberg, it was quickly dismissed during
>testimony, and did not appear as a finding in the judgment.

Indeed.  Point your rigii to


http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/atomic-01.html

Best,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Thu Nov 27 17:44:59 EST 1997
Article: 150488 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.liberalism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.revisionism
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From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: David Irving In Portland, Oregon Pt. 2 of 4
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3492be26.46639018@news.hollinet.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:38:11 GMT
Lines: 178
Xref: news.trends.ca talk.politics.libertarian:239369 alt.society.liberalism:100832 alt.politics.usa.constitution:123844 alt.politics.democrats.d:259794 alt.revisionism:150488

For an idea of who David Irving is see:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david

Of course, Mr. nationalist and Mr. irving share the same "traditional
enemy."

Regards,

Rich Green


In article <3492be26.46639018@news.hollinet.com>,
Michael  wrote:
>Part Two of Four of David Irving's Speech In Portland, Oregon continues.
>
>My thanks to Ralph Johnson for providing the text of David Irvings Speech in
>Portland. This is Part Two of Four.
>
>Please visit Mr. Johnsons excellent site at:"www.eskimo.com/~ralphj"
>
>in which among all of the interesting articles this site has to offer, there is a
>video of this speech available.
>
>This article courtesy of Ralph Johnson:"www.eskimo.com/~ralphj"
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>                                                      David Irving
>
>                                       A speech in Portland Oregon.
>
>                                                          Part 2
>
>I've now assembled enough material, world wide from these various court ordered
>discloser of government files, that I am able now to
>write pretty impressive booklet that will come out in a few weeks time called
>Vendetta giving the whole inside story of this world wide
>attempt to silence us. But of course they failed and this is the glorious thing. We
>are winning the battle. I said two years ago that the fight would only last two
>years. I underestimated their tenacity. I think probably another year from now
>eventually our enemy will give
>up this particular battle. The signs are clearly there. What they're doing now are
>measures of desperation. If you followed the scene in
>Germany at all, extraordinary things are happening. You would imagine Germany would
>be the bastion of the free world after its
>experiences of two world wars and the Third Reich and Hitler, the Nazis and all the
>rest. 
>
>But in fact nothing has changed in Germany. In my opinion. Certainly not in the legal
>system, Certainly not since the end of the first
>World War. The legal system is unchanged. They still click their heels and obey
>orders from above. The only thing missing now is they
>don't have to wear the arm bands any more. There has been some graphic demonstrations
>of this in the last few weeks. 
>
>I've witnessed a lot of hardships in Germany I must say. Inflicted not on me but on
>those who followed me in one way or another.
>When I was fined in January of last year 22,000 dollars, A Nurnberg school teacher
>wrote a letter to a Bavarian television station, to
>protest about the tone of their news bulletins. Which they had gleefully announced
>the fine imposed on me. The Bavarian television
>station was good enough and decent enough to pass his letter on to Bavarian minister
>of culture who is their direct superior in the
>education system. And he was dismissed. Man of my age, totally without a future now,
>no pension, no job no livelihood. Purely
>because he had written a letter of protest to a television station. 
>
>Quite a common occurrence. You wonder why they take photographs of you when you come
>in here? In Germany it has become systematic. A school teacher sitting in the front
>row of one of my audiences, three or four years ago, somewhere near Hanover. Her face
>appeared on the evening Television bulletin and she was dismissed the next day. She
>only attended out of curiosity. Wanted to see what I had to say. She was dismissed
>for sitting in an audience. The Gunther Deckert case is the most pregnant example of
>the way Germany is drifting. A Jewish historian in New Zealand of whom I'm most
>friendly who has investigated this case world wide, now has written in a doctoral
>dissertation that Germany's record in the human rights league is a miserable one
>indeed. The Deckert Case I think is the most appalling example. 
>
>Gunther Deckert a school teacher who many years ago already lost his job a because of
>his opinions, imagine that. Imagine that
>happening in the United States. Imagine a school teacher being fired for his
>opinions. Happens in Canada of course, but not yet in the
>United States.Not officially anyway. Gunther Deckert officially dismissed in Germany
>because having the wrong opinions as a school
>teacher. He became the leader of the right wing Nationalist Party in Germany, a
>constitutional party. Like many of the active parties in
>Germany. Not illegal in any way. And of course as such an anathema for the liberal
>German media. He translated the lecture delivered
>by Fred Leuchter in Mannheim in November 1991. 
>
>Fred Leuchter as nearly all of you know is the American consultant on American gas
>chambers technology who was sent to Auschwitz
>to investigate the so called gas chambers by Ernst Zundel. Fred Leuchter is the world
>expert on gas chambers. And on gassing human
>beings. He brought back 30 samples from the brick work of the Auschwitz gas chambers.
>And subjected these holy relics to forensic
>test in laboratories in the Unites States. With the results you all know that there
>was no trace of cyanide gas what so ever from in these
>samples. 
>
>Fred Leuchter has had his life and career ruined by the traditional enemy of the
>truth. That is not the point here. In November 1991
>Fred Leuchter was lecturing in Mannheim, he doesn't speak German, so his lecture was
>being translated by Gunther Deckert, the school
>teacher I just mentioned. For interpreting that lecture Gunther Deckert was sentenced
>to one year in prison and fined $7,000. This is a democracy, This is Germany, This is
>the way things are going in Germany now. I personally don't care what Deckert said or
>wrote or
>interpreted, I don't think people should be imprisoned for expressing their opinions.
>I don't think people should be fined colossal sums of
>money for expressing their opinions as long as they are not inciting race hatred or
>incitement to break the law. 
>
>The judges in Germany who heard the appeal of Gunther Deckert this summer evidently
>agreed, because although they found no
>alternative but to uphold the sentence, one year imposed on Deckert, they suspended
>it. In their written judgement which they finally
>published, a month or two later, in the middle of August, this year, the two judges,
>one who was Muller, the chairman of the court. said
>that the reason for suspending the sentence and treating Deckert relatively lenient
>was because he had acted as a patriot. Because he
>had done what he did in Germany's interests and because he like many other Germans
>was being thoroughly fed up with what was
>being done to Germany. By Israel in the sense of continually pestering them for
>financial compensation. From the actual culprits and
>perpetrators of the holocaust. From their sons and daughters and grandsons and
>granddaughters. And the Judges said in their verdict,
>obviously they had a certain degree of sympathy for Deckert, having done it for these
>reasons. They understood why he had done it. 
>
>The result of course next day was outcry and uproar in the German liberal news media.
>They demanded the heads of these two judges
>and the German minister of justice. A woman, a liberal member of the Liberal party in
>Germany. She said found these two judges
>verdict shameful, and she would expect decisions to be taken. Sure enough these two
>judges were dismissed a few days later for health
>reasons. They fought back and pointed out the were not ill. A few weeks later they
>had to be given their jobs back. But it gets worse.
>The prosecutor in that case in Germany, a man called Klein, insisted that these two
>judges have their verdicts closely scrutinized to see
>if they too could be prosecuted under the same laws. 
>
>What an extraordinary case. It's like Animal Farm. If any of you have read Animal
>Farm, The prosecutor can say, you have handed
>down a verdict, which I as a prosecutor disagree, I am going to look and see if I
>cant have you two put in prison too. What an
>extraordinary situation. 
>
>I think this is what finally brought the house down in Germany. Because a lot of
>thinking people to wonder which way Germany was
>drifting. And Germany is drifting in very odd directions now. The coming elections
>are going to show. In very alarming directions. 
>
>end of Part 2 of 4
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Michael
>nationalist@juno.com
>"http://www.natall.com"
>"http://www.natvan.com"
>
>National Vanguard Books
>P.O. Box 330
>Hillsboro, WV   24946
>
>"No man has come to true greatness who has not felt
>in some degree that his life belongs to his race."
>
>                                ----Phillips Brooks
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Thu Nov 27 17:44:59 EST 1997
Article: 150490 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!newsfeed.wli.net!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3484fd2f.203991669@dnews.pacificnet.net> 
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:50:31 GMT
Lines: 23
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150490

In article ,
Dene Bebbington   wrote:
>tom moran  wrote:
>>
>>       About 99% of the Holocaust story's evidence is based on personal
>>accounts. Listed here are some of the details that appear within the
>>general testimony.
>
>About 99% of Mr Moran's posts contain no substantiation or references to
>sources.

I demand a source, sir, for the assertion that about 1% of Mr. Moran's
posts contain any substantiation or references to sources whatsoever.

Best,

Rich Green

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Fri Nov 28 09:16:31 EST 1997
Article: 150605 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
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From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Famous last words - In my view, no one can deny the number of 4 million
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <19971117223001.RAA26176@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:09:23 GMT
Lines: 18
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150605

Hello all,

See
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-01.html

Why is alan Grist reposting Greg Raven's garbage?  I thought Mr. Grist
was interested in exposing atrocities not obfuscating them.

Regards,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Fri Nov 28 09:16:31 EST 1997
Article: 150619 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!logbridge.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Full listing of solid Holocaust evidence
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <347762A6.7F93@rio.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 05:12:38 GMT
Lines: 10
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150619

For a thorough refutation of this cheap shot, see qar 1

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 07:17:51 EST 1997
Article: 150777 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Nizkor
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References:  <19971128041201.XAA16783@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:42:57 GMT
Lines: 30
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150777

In article <19971128041201.XAA16783@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
ChuckF2323  wrote:

>THAT'S ANOTHER B I N G O  !!!

Thanks Chuck!

>The MFs are on the run. They can run, but they can't hide!

And run they do!  Witness John Ball's flight away from his $100,00
offer!

Best,

Rich


>Fifty-two years ago, Allied soldiers 
>liberated Buchenwald, Dachau, Belsen
>and other Nazi concentration camps
>and came face to face with the
>Human Ruins of the Nazi system of slave labor and genocide. 
>IT HAPPENED! GET USED TOO IT !!!


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 07:17:52 EST 1997
Article: 150778 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!199.45.255.100!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3484fd2f.203991669@dnews.pacificnet.net> <659um7$pvg$1@news.trends.ca>  <348206e2.458552127@dnews.pacificnet.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:44:42 GMT
Lines: 32
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150778

In article <348206e2.458552127@dnews.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>
>Mr.McVay:
>>>Perhaps Mr. Moran would care to tell us where this was established... although
>>>it was a topic of examination at Nurnberg, it was quickly dismissed during
>>>testimony, and did not appear as a finding in the judgment.
>
>Mr.Green:
>>Indeed.  Point your rigii to
>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/atomic-01.html
>
>	Why does Mr.Green ask people to go get it instead of just pasting
>it right out here? Seems this would contribute to saving Internet
>resources, and, putting his money where his reference is. The answer
>is, he is hoping for the naivety of people to seek it out without it
>being out here where it is prone to revisionist piranha shredding. 

On the contraray it is a case of bandwidth.  Any semi-competent person
can  click the right doodad to get their rigii to point there, Zeyde.

Best,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 07:17:52 EST 1997
Article: 150779 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-in-east.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!137.192.241.248!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References:  <19971128063701.BAA00484@ladder01.news.aol.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:46:37 GMT
Lines: 30
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150779

In article <19971128063701.BAA00484@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Jbellingxx  wrote:
>>Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
>>From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
>>Date: Sun, Nov 23, 1997 16:11 EST
>>Message-id: 
>>
>>
>
>>Perhaps Mr. Moran would care to tell us where this was established...
>>although
>>>it was a topic of examination at Nurnberg, it was quickly dismissed during
>>>testimony, and did not appear as a finding in the judgment.
>
>That isn't the point, Mr. Green.  This was only ONE lie among many.  If you
>can't believe the messengers, how can you believe the message?

It is the point.  Zeyde accepted this story as having been viewed as
accurate.  He lied.  If you cannot believe the messenger...

Best,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 07:17:52 EST 1997
Article: 150780 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3484fd2f.203991669@dnews.pacificnet.net>   <3488dbfb.459105222@dnews.pacificnet.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:50:29 GMT
Lines: 29
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150780

In article <3488dbfb.459105222@dnews.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>
>>I demand a source, sir, for the assertion that about 1% of Mr. Moran's
>>posts contain any substantiation or references to sources whatsoever.
>
>>Rich Green
>
>	Does Mr.Green have a source for that 1%?

I have yet to read a post from Zeyde that contains substantiation or a
reference.

>	And what is it, that Mr.Green has a problem believing any of
>these Holocaust details?	

Zeyde has not posted a source for them and has given no indication
that serious people ever took the unlikely ones seriously.

Best,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 09:38:12 EST 1997
Article: 150789 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.liberalism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.edu.sollentuna.se!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-sea-19.sprintlink.net!news-in-west.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!Sprint!199.45.255.100!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Do Libertarians support the Auschwitz Gas Chamber Fraud?
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <34789325.1802166@netnews.voicenet.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:01:31 GMT
Lines: 103
Xref: news.trends.ca talk.politics.libertarian:239750 alt.society.liberalism:101319 alt.politics.usa.constitution:123965 alt.politics.democrats.d:259992 alt.revisionism:150789

In article <34789325.1802166@netnews.voicenet.com>,
John Oden  wrote:

[snip]

>L'Express also reports that, after a five-year battle among the
>"experts," Polish president Lech Walesa has decided that the new,
>revised number of dead to be inscribed on the Birkenau monument will
>be 1,500,000. (For years the monument proclaimed 4,000,000 Auschwitz
>deaths.) 

See
http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-01.html
>
>Generally speaking, writes Conan, there have been many obvious
>falsifications in the Auschwitz and Birkenau camp sites. Stefan
>Wilkanowicz, vice-president of the International Committee of the
>Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum (and director of an
>influential Polish Catholic periodical), says: 
>The biggest blunders have been rectified but the principal discussions
>are never-ending and far from being settled. I can even say that
>essential debates, distressing, sometimes unexpected, are only
>beginning. 
>About the famous "gas chamber" in the Auschwitz I camp, Conan writes: 
>In 1948, when the Museum was created, Crematory I was reconstructed in
>a supposed original state. Everything in it is false [Tout y est
>faux]: the dimensions of the gas chamber, the locations of the doors,
>the openings for pouring in Zyklon B, the ovens (rebuilt according to
>the recollections of some survivors), the height of the chimney. At
>the end of the 70s, Robert Faurisson exploited those falsifications
>all the better because at that time the Museum officials balked at
>admitting them. An American revisionist [David Cole] has just shot a
>video in the gas chamber (still presented as authentic): one may see
>him questioning the visitors with his "revelations" [Emphasis added.] 

Rudolf [1] addresses the roof in Crema I.  He repeats the
familiar  Holocaust-denier argument that  the lack of an
obvious location for the original introduction vents in this
reconstructed gas-chamber proves they must not be there.
His main sources for this argument are Pressac[2], who
explicitly disagrees with his conclusion and David Cole's
video [3].  In fact he repeats Cole's inaccurate claim that
Dr. Franciszek Piper is the former director of the Auschwitz
Museum.  In a full page advertisement  in the Daily
Texan[4], graciously paid for by Harry Mazal OBE, Dr. Piper
refutes this and other untruths contained in Cole's
mendacious video:

     I am not and I have been neither a head of the
     Auschwitz Archives nor a director of the Auschwitz
     Museum , as Cole maintains in other propaganda
     leaflets.

His conclusion that:

     One can conclude from all this that in all
     likelihood there were no      hatches
     for the input of Zyklon B to allow these
     facilities to be used as 'gas chamber' at the time
     of their alleged use as such.

seems strange in light of his admission a few sentences
above that:

     There are two other places where the ceiling is
     plastered over, in the middle of the room and
     towards the outside wall. Whether these patches
     cover up former holes or whether they are also the
     result of repairs is something that yet needs to
     be investigated. In any case they are not input
     openings distributed evenly throughout the room.

The requirement that the openings be evenly distributed is
merely assumed by Rudolf.  The fact that the original vents
are not apparent in a building that has been reconstructed
for various purposes at different times proves absolutely
nothing.

[1]  G. Rudolf _The Gas Chambers of Auschwitz and Majdanek_,
     available at http://www.codoh.com
[2]  J.C. Pressac _Technique_
[3]  David Cole's lying video.
[4]  H. W. Mazal OBE, The Daily Texan, January 28, 1994, p.5

[snip]

>During a September 1992 interview with American revisionist David
>Cole, Auschwitz Museum Curator Piper said, "so now this gas chamber
>[at Auschwitz I] is very similar to this one which existed in
>1941-1942." 

See Piper's response in H.W. Mazal's advertisement.

[snip]

Regards,

Rich Green
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 09:38:12 EST 1997
Article: 150790 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.liberalism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: THE TRUTH AT LAST: THE HOLOHOAX(tm) - another j*wish trick.
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <65avuo$rmj$47@cnn.axisnet.net>
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:17:06 GMT
Lines: 90
Xref: news.trends.ca talk.politics.libertarian:239751 alt.society.liberalism:101320 alt.politics.usa.constitution:123966 alt.politics.democrats.d:259993 alt.revisionism:150790

In article <65avuo$rmj$47@cnn.axisnet.net>,
HERMAN THE CHERUSCII  wrote:

[snip]

>New York Times reported in 1945 that Soviet Russia
>    supplied the figure of four million Jews having been put to death, "in the
>gas chambers of Auschwitz." However, in July of 1990, the
>    Polish government reduced this figure to 1.1 million and it was accepted by
>Jewish groups. Despite this evidence, the "official figure" of
>    six million dead was not lowered to three million! 

The six million figure is not related to the false four million figure.

See:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-01.html

>    The Impossibility of Mass Gassings Auschwitz had no mass graves. The
>cremation of four million bodies would have left 15,000

1 million.  Why were there 52 Crematory ovens?  Why did they exceed even
the capacity of these and resort to burning in pits?

>    tons of ash which was never found. Many tons of coal would have been
>necessary for such mass cremations. 

You must have missed the following information posted
previously by Mr. Van Alstine:

    In 1965, Hydrokop, a chemical mining enterprise based in Krakow,
    was commissioned by the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum to carry
    out geological tests at Birkenau aimed at determining the
    locations of incineration pits and pyres. Specialists of Hydrokop
    bored 303 holes up to 3 m deep. Traces of human ashes, bones, and
    hair turned up in 42 sites. Documentation of all the holes and the
    diagrams of their distribution are preserved in the Conservation
    Department of the Museum (Franciszek Piper, _Anatomy_,  p. 179n).

>    Austrian Engineer Walter Luftl issued a report in March 1992, in which he
>found that, "Zyklon B is utterly unsuited for the
>    purposes of systematic mass murder." 
>
>    Fred Leuchter, America's foremost expert on executions, took a team of
>investigators to Auschwitz in 1988 and reported: "I
>    traveled to Poland to investigate the alleged execution gas chamber
>facilities at the three concentration camps of Auschwitz,
>    Birkenau and Majdanek. My forensic analysis and subsequent report proves
>beyond any shadow of a doubt that there were
>    no gas execution facilities operated by the Nazis at these sites." 
>
>    Leuchter also examined the capacity of the so-called "gas chamber building"
>at Birkenau. The Nuremberg Tribunal's document No.
>    L-022 stated: "1,765,000 Jews were gassed at Birkenau between April 1942 and
>April 1944." However, Leuchter found that
>    even if used at full capacity "only 105,688" persons could have been
>"gassed." His team scraped forensic samples from brick,
>    mortar and concrete to find traces of cyanide compounds which would be
>present for centuries. They were submitted to the Alpha
>    Analytical Laboratories of Ashland, Massachusetts. In March 1988, the Alpha
>report found that no cyanide elements, consistent
>    with what could be expected to be found in a gas chamber, were present. 
>
>    A retired German judge, Dr. Wilhelm Staglich said: "The extermination thesis
>stands or falls with the allegation that
>    Auschwitz was a 'death factory.'" 
>
>    Fred Leuchter's finding: "We have provided the definitive proof that there
>were no execution gas chambers utilized for
>    genocidal purposes by the Germans at these wartime camps. The simple fact is
>that the holocaust story is not true." 


Markiewicz, Gubala, and Labedz demonstrated that HCN was present in the 
homicidal gas chambers at levels above background.  They used a calibrated 
method and that they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not 
clear.  Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/forensic.html
http://world.std.com/~rjg/blue.html

Regards,

Rich Green

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 09:38:12 EST 1997
Article: 150795 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Unanswered Questions about Gas Chambers
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <65msat$k4q$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:28:53 GMT
Lines: 29
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150795

Mr. Innocentus should know the answers to some of these questions as I
have provided them before.  I am not attempting to answer all of the
questions, only to show that the implications of the questions
concerning blue-staining are not at all what Mr. Cole pretends.

In order to demonstrate anything based on this staining, one needs to be
able to show the mechanism of its formation and the rate of its
formation under various conditions.  My essay at

http://world.std.com/~rjg/blue.html

demonstrates the inadequacy of "revisionist" positions here.

Markiewicz, Gubala, and Labedz demonstrated that HCN was present in the 
homicidal gas chambers at levels above background.  They used a calibrated 
method and that they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not 
clear.  Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/forensic.html
http://world.std.com/~rjg/blue.html

Best,

Rich Green
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 09:38:13 EST 1997
Article: 150796 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!logbridge.uoregon.edu!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: The secret agenda of Holocaust deniers. Ala Nizkor
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3483c7fa.5845502@dnews.pacificnet.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 05:31:35 GMT
Lines: 27
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150796

In article <3483c7fa.5845502@dnews.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:

>	Even though the one time well publicized figure of 4,000,000
>exterminations at Auschwitz has been reduced down to a current
>1,000,000 and even though all the camps in Germany that were once well
>publicized to have been extermination camps and are no longer held to
>be and even though many other formerly held allegations have since
>been deleted from the Holocaust lie, Nizkor say's:
>	
>"The real purpose of Holocaust revisionism is to make National
>Socialism [Nazis] an acceptable political alternative again." 

Revisionism had nothing to do with the communist claim nor its rebuttal
by respected historians.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-01.html

Best,

Rich Green

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sat Nov 29 17:38:34 EST 1997
Article: 150832 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news3.buffnet.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!globalcenter1!news.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3484fd2f.203991669@dnews.pacificnet.net> <34a1e914.319851178@dnews.pacificnet.net>
Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:13:18 GMT
Lines: 28
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150832

In article <34a1e914.319851178@dnews.pacificnet.net>,
tom moran  wrote:
>>
>>	About 99% of the Holocaust story's evidence is based on personal
>>accounts. Listed here are some of the details that appear within the
>>general testimony.
>>	
>>====================================================================
>
>	At one camp the commandant would randomly shoot prisoners from
>his veranda with a sniper rifle.
>
>Schindler's List

See:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/schindler-01.html

Regards,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sun Nov 30 08:52:46 EST 1997
Article: 150899 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.liberalism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.edu.sollentuna.se!news.oru.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!enews.sgi.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Is The 6 Million Mantra True?
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <347dba2e.45622752@news.hollinet.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:28:30 GMT
Lines: 519
Xref: news.trends.ca talk.politics.libertarian:239908 alt.society.liberalism:101483 alt.politics.usa.constitution:124010 alt.revisionism:150899

In article <347dba2e.45622752@news.hollinet.com>,
Michael  wrote:
>This review by Charles E. Weber entitled "Encyclopedic Work on Zündel 'Holocaust
>Trial' an 'Absolute Necessity' " is provided courtesy of Greg Raven and the Institute
>For Historical Review. 
>
>My thanks to Greg Raven and the IHR for their uncompromising integrity and dedication
>in seeking the truth in History.
>
>Please visit:"http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg" for the finest source of
>revisionist articles, books, links, and reviews.
>
>Also visit: "http://www.natvan.com" for the best source of information
>and books critically important to White People everywhere. If you are fed up with
>what is happening to the White Race then visit this site.
>
>
>Visit the Zündelsite at:"http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english
>===========================================================
>Encyclopedic Work on Zündel 'Holocaust Trial' an 'Absolute
>Necessity'
>
>Did Six Million Really Die?: Report of the Evidence in the Canadian "False News"
>Trial of Ernst Zündel, 1988. Compiled and edited
>by Barbara Kulaszka. Foreword by Dr. Robert Faurisson. Toronto: Samisdat, 1992.
>Softcover. Large format. 572 pages. Illustrations.
>Index. (Available from Samisdat Publishing for $50.00, plus $7.50 shipping.) 
>
>Reviewed by Charles E. Weber 
>
>As a result of re-publishing Did Six Million Really Die?, a booklet that originally
>appeared in 1974 in England, Canadian authorities
>charged Ernst Zündel, a German-born commercial artist residing in Toronto, with
>violating section 177 of the country's Criminal Code.
>This section provides: 
>
>     Everyone who willfully publishes a statement, tale or news that he knows is
>false and that causes or is likely to cause injury
>     of mischief to a public interest is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
>to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two
>     years. 
>
>Although this law had seldom been invoked, in 1985 and 1988 Zündel was a defendant in
>two long jury trials for allegedly violating this
>statute. These two trials are among the most significant in North American legal
>history, and provide a valuable source for historians. 
>
>As one of the defense witnesses in the first trial I had an opportunity to observe
>members of the jury, which consisted mostly of rather old men, some of whom must have
>been veterans of the Second World War (as am I). For me, the trials of Ernst Zündel
>had a bearing
>on my own experiences in life, for I had been involved in the Allied postwar
>"denazification" process in Germany. 
>
>I know from my own experiences and observations that most veterans of the Second
>World War have a tendency to want to believe
>that their sacrifices and those of their contemporaries were for a good cause, and
>that they were involved in a "good war" in spite of our alliance with and strong
>support of one of the most evil regimes in the history of mankind, the government of
>Stalin. Believing
>"Holocaust" tales is thus a psychological compulsion for the typical Canadian,
>American and British veteran of the Second World War. 
>
>More broadly, the desire to believe in the ethical inferiority of our adversary in
>that war, National Socialist Germany, in a conflict that
>required great national sacrifices, is no doubt a factor that favors the ready,
>seldom-questioned acceptance of "Holocaust" accounts and
>tales, fantastic and improbable though they might seem to an unprejudiced examiner.
>The sentences imposed on Zündel (later revoked
>by higher courts) were dependent on opinions of members of a jury consisting of
>Canadian citizens selected more or less at random. In
>assessing the verdicts in the Zündel trials we must bear in mind the atmosphere in
>which they were conducted. 
>
>These trials provide a unique opportunity for historians who wish to be objective to
>examine "Holocaust" arguments, because they
>involve a juxtaposition of opinions of advocates of what might be called the
>"Extermination Thesis" and the opinions of the
>"revisionists" who do not accept that thesis. Because the "Holocaust" today has an
>important impact on American thought, policy and
>even legislation, the "Holocaust" question is certainly one of the most important
>with which an historian can concern himself. 
>
>The first, 1985 trial -- much more than the second -- received a great deal of
>attention in the Canadian press and television. In the
>United States, the media paid virtually no attention to either trial. 
>
>This massive book is an admirable and valuable summary of evidence presented by
>historians with opposing views on the "Holocaust"
>in a major trial in which the usual rules of evidence generally prevailed (quite in
>contrast to the Nuremberg trials of 1945-1946).
>Furthermore, this book supplements the copious evidence with developments on the
>"Holocaust" question between 1988 and 1992,
>such as the 1990 report of Poland's Institute of Forensic Research commissioned by
>the Auschwitz State Museum. (The complete text
>of this report is published in the Summer 1991 IHR Journal.) 
>
>This book summarizes rather closely, with many direct quotations, the testimony
>presented by the various witnesses. The summary of
>the testimony for the Crown (prosecution) takes up 157 pages, that for the defense,
>276. The summaries of the testimonies of the two
>major prosecution witnesses, Raul Hilberg and Christopher Browning, take up 148-1/2
>pages, while the summaries of the testimonies of
>six major defense witnesses occupy 224 pages: Ditlieb Felderer 13, Mark Weber 63, Udo
>Walendy 13, Robert Faurisson 65, Fred
>Leuchter 8, David Irving 62. I give these figures to provide an idea of the book's
>dimensions and contents, because it is difficult to
>indicate much more than the general nature of the testimonies within the usual limits
>of a book review. 
>
>Summaries of the testimonies are preceded by a publisher's note, an editor's
>introduction, and a foreword by Dr. Robert Faurisson. In
>addition, editor-compiler Barbara Kulaszka provides a significant essay on
>implications of the legal campaign against Holocaust
>revisionism, pointing out that even statements by Jewish historians plausibly
>constitute "Holocaust denial." 
>
>In his foreword, Faurisson stresses the importance of the physical-forensic
>investigations of Auschwitz by Fred Leuchter and
>subsequent investigators, as well as the courageous role played by Ernst Zündel. At
>the same time, he admonishes us that court
>proceedings are not the ideal setting for the examination of complicated historical
>questions. 
>
>Browning
>
>Christopher R. Browning, a 43-year-old professor at Pacific Lutheran College in
>Tacoma, was the only major witness to testify in
>person for the Crown. His testimony is summarized on 73-1/2 pages. Browning obtained
>his Ph.D. degree in 1975, and has carried out
>research on the National Socialist government's treatment of Jews at archives in
>Jerusalem, Bonn, Koblenz, and elsewhere. He is the
>author of Fateful Months: Essays on the Emergence of the Final Solution (1985). 
>
>Seeking to discredit the booklet written by an Englishman under the pen name of
>Richard Harwood, Did Six Million Really Die? (the
>full text of which is reproduced in the work under review here), Browning read from a
>number of documents, many of which had been
>presented at the Nuremberg trials. One of these was the Stahlecker Report, written by
>the commander of an Einsatzgruppe operating in
>the Baltic region. This Report mentions executions by Latvian and Lithuanian
>auxiliaries who were selected because they had relatives
>who had been murdered or deported by the Communists during the 1940-1941 Soviet
>occupation of the Baltic lands. 
>
>During cross-examination by Zündel's attorney, Douglas Christie, Browning admitted
>that he was being paid $30,000 by Israel's Yad
>Vashem Holocaust center to write a book. 
>
>Browning acknowledged that -- in contrast to such defense witnesses as Felderer and
>Leuchter -- he had never visited the sites of any of
>the former German concentration camps for purposes of research. Browning's naiveté
>about the origins of the Second World War also
>became apparent. The often-quoted phrase "bei Freilassung" ("upon release") in the
>"Wannsee Protocol" is discussed. In a striking
>example of the biased, one-sided nature of his research, Browning admitted that, in
>17 years studying the treatment of Jews by the
>wartime German government, he had never read the works of Wilhelm Stäglich.
>(Stäglich's principal book, which is published in English
>by the IHR under the title Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence, is perhaps the
>most important revisionist work on the question.) 
>
>At the behest of the prosecution, the testimony of Raul Hilberg given during the
>first Zündel trial was read in its entirety to the court.
>Hilberg, a professor at the University of Vermont, has written extensively in support
>of the Extermination Thesis. His chief work is a three-volume work, The Destruction
>of the European Jews. 
>
>In an October 5, 1987, letter to Crown prosecuting attorney Pearson (and reproduced
>in this book), Hilberg cited several reasons for his
>decision not to testify at the second trial, including the "time and energy required
>to ward off" the assault on his testimony. Defense
>attorney Christie objected to the reading of the testimony from 1985, charging that
>Hilberg had perjured himself in the first trial. In the
>present work, the summary of Hilberg's testimony takes up 76 pages. In view of his
>justified timidity about subjecting himself again to
>Christie's penetrating cross-examination, Hilberg's testimony should not detain us in
>detail here. However, the curious reader should
>read Christie's devastating cross-examination of Hilberg. Christie proved to be very
>well prepared for detailed cross-examination,
>confronting Hilberg with a great many appropriate citations from a wide range of
>sources. 
>
>Felderer
>
>Ditlieb Felderer from Sweden was the first witness called by the defense. Felderer
>had first become interested in this subject as an
>adherent of the Jehovah's Witnesses, when he began investigating the fate of
>Witnesses in German concentration camps. This
>stimulated wider-ranging investigations of the camps, in which he found to his
>astonishment that they were quite different from the way
>they are generally described. 
>
>Felderer became fascinated by this subject, so much so that he took some 30,000
>slides during visits of the sites of former concentration
>camps in Poland. He showed about 300 of his slides to the jury, 230 of which are
>reproduced in this book's pictorial section. During his
>testimony, Felderer drew parallels between Germany's Auschwitz trials and the
>medieval trials of witches who were forced to admit to
>having had sexual intercourse with the Devil. 
>
>Christophersen
>
>Testifying next was Thies Christophersen, who had been a German army officer
>stationed in 1944 at Raisko, a subsidiary camp near
>Auschwitz where agricultural experiments were conducted. Christophersen has laid out
>his wartime experiences in a booklet, Auschwitz: Truth or Lie: An Eyewitness Report
>(available from the IHR). 
>
>Weber
>
>Historian Mark Weber, who was born in Oregon in 1951, was the eighth witness for the
>defense. Accepted by the court as an expert
>witness qualified to give opinion evidence on the Holocaust issue, he discussed a
>wide variety of aspects of the Extermination Thesis,
>including the Einsatzgruppen, the Wannsee Conference, Zionism, the postwar
>"confessions" of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss,
>and Allied aerial photographs of Auschwitz. 
>
>Throughout his five days of testimony Weber demonstrated wide archival experiences,
>and a vast knowledge of many aspects of the
>history of the Jews in Europe during and before the Second World War. Attorney
>Christie took him through a line-by-line analysis of
>virtually the entire text of the Harwood booklet. Weber discussed the questionable
>legal basis of the Nuremberg trials (which were
>condemned at the time by no less a figure than Senator Robert Taft of Ohio). Crown
>attorney Pearson cross-examined Weber at great
>length, largely about the Einsatzgruppen and then about Weber's personal experiences
>and beliefs. In sometimes bitter exchanges
>Pearson sought to discredit Weber as a racist. 
>
>Van Herwaarden
>
>Maria van Herwaarden, a Austrian-born resident of Canada, testified about her
>experiences as a inmate of Auschwitz-Birkenau from
>December 1942 to January 1945. She told about large-scale deaths due to disease, and
>measures taken by the camp authorities to
>combat the epidemics. Although there was talk of gassings in the camp, she stated
>that personally she never saw any evidence of that. 
>
>Burg
>
>Joseph G. Burg, a Jewish author who had been harshly treated during the war,
>testified that shortly after the end of the conflict he had
>visited the Auschwitz and Majdanek camps -- and found no evidence of "gas chambers"
>at either. There were no liquidations in the
>concentration camps, Burg stated. He was not cross-examined. 
>
>Lagacé
>
>Ivan Lagacé, a crematory manager in Calgary, testified on the credibility of the
>standard claims of mass cremation at the
>Auschwitz-Birkenau camp. Even modern crematories require an average of two hours (the
>cremation cycle) to "process" a human
>body, he said. Non-stop cremation, as allegedly happened at Birkenau, is simply
>impossible, said Lagacé, who had cremated more than
>a thousand bodies in his career. 
>
>Birkenau's crematories were almost identical in structure and design to the crematory
>he manages in Calgary, said Lagacé. Claims by
>Raul Hilberg and other Holocaust historians that some four thousand bodies were
>"processed" daily in Birkenau's four crematory
>facilities are "preposterous" and "beyond the realm of reality," Lagacé emphasized.
>Based on his experience, he said, the Birkenau
>crematories would have been able to cremate no more than 184 bodies daily. 
>
>Walendy
>
>During his testimony, German historian and publisher Udo Walendy spoke at length
>about his collaboration with Zündel, and about censorship and "reeducation" in
>Germany. For two decades, Walendy has published the important booklet series,
>Historische 0Tatsachen. He is also the author of several books, and he distributed
>Harwood's Did Six Million Really Die? in Germany. 
>
>Faurisson
>
>During his six days on the witness stand, French Professor Robert Faurisson, like
>Weber, covered a very wide range of aspects of the
>Extermination Thesis, including his notable research on the Anne Frank Diary. 
>
>Faurisson summarizes his view of the "Holocaust" as follows: 
>
>     The alleged Hitlerite gas chambers and the alleged genocide of the Jews are one
>and the same historical lie which opened the
>     way to a gigantic political-financial fraud, whose principal beneficiaries are
>the State of Israel and international Zionism, and
>     the principal victims the German people -- but not its leaders -- and the entire
>Palestinian people.
>
>A good deal of Faurisson's testimony was devoted to an analysis of the booklet, Six
>Million Did Die, published by the South African
>Jewish Board of Deputies. He characterized this work as a "bad book." At the
>beginning of Pearson's cross-examination, Faurisson
>pointed out that court proceedings are not the proper setting for historical debate
>(just as he does in his foreword to this book). He
>demonstrated not only a wide knowledge of the history of the Jews in Europe during
>the Second World War, but also impressive verbal
>skill (with an occasional touch of Gallic humor) in a language that is not his mother
>tongue. 
>
>Leuchter
>
>Fred Leuchter, an American expert on penal execution procedures, took the stand to
>provide relatively short but crucially important
>testimony. Commissioned by Zündel, he had carried out the first ever on-site expert
>forensic examination of the alleged homicidal "gas
>chambers" at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. He compiled his detailed physical and
>chemical data and his conclusions in the
>history-making Leuchter Report, which has had a tremendous impact on all subsequent
>discussion of the wartime function of the
>camps. (A condensed version of The Leuchter Report is published in this book as an
>appendix.) 
>
>Judge Thomas permitted Leuchter to give oral testimony, but with major restrictions.
>Leuchter was not allowed to present or even refer
>to his Report, but he was able to describe his investigation of the camp sites in
>some detail. 
>
>Irving
>
>David Irving, the prolific British historian, was the final defense witness. Not a
>man to hide his light under a basket, Irving can
>justifiably boast not only about the quantity and wide range of his publications on
>Second World War history, but also about his
>extensive archival research and his intimate familiarity with the German language,
>which gives him far greater access to original sources than some historians who have
>written in this area. 
>
>Irving has written on such diverse topics as Churchill and the Hungarian uprising of
>1956. He often shows contempt for academic
>historians who show no originality, or rigor in going after original documentation,
>content to drift along with popular mythology.
>Acknowledging that he had not read Hilberg's three-volume work, Irving said that he
>does not read other people's books if he can avoid
>it, adding that he finds it is easier to go to the archives and read the original
>documents. When his Hitler's War was published in 1977,
>he accepted most of the Extermination Thesis without much questioning. Since then,
>though, he has changed his views on this subject.
>Taking advantage of what he considered an important wedge here, Pearson read
>extensively from Hitler's War, challenging Irving's
>change of views. 
>
>Irving had strong praise for the value of Leuchter's forensic, on-site investigation,
>which he characterized as "shattering in the
>significance of its discovery" and "a stroke of genius on the part of the defense."
>Irving stated that his views had been changed even by
>testimony he had heard at the trial "in the last few days." 
>
>Irving adheres to the view that there were isolated massacres of Jews in the Baltic
>lands and in Ukraine that were not authorized by
>Hitler, and indeed prohibited by him, and that Hitler envisaged the "final solution
>of the Jewish question" as postwar emigration of Jews
>from Europe. Irving suggests a similarity in some respects of the massacres of Jews
>to those by American forces in Vietnam. 
>
>He testified that he did not dispute the authenticity of the Wannsee Conference
>"protocol" of January 20, 1942. I find this astonishing
>because there is a good deal of evidence that it has been altered, if it had not been
>a forgery from the outset. 
>
>Irving often seemed rather cavalier about statistics, as when he accepted as accurate
>the figure of "eleven million" European Jews given in the statistical table of the
>Wannsee Conference protocol. These figures are rightly considered notoriously
>inflated, especially in the case of France, and include Jews in neutral counties and
>the USSR. 
>
>I could not escape the impression that Irving was somewhat crippled as a defense
>witness as a result of being confronted with contrary
>views he had expressed on earlier occasions. He was expressing "Exterminationist"
>views as recently as 1977, long after serious
>questions had been raised about the orthodox portrayal of Second World War history. 
>
>'Essentially Sound'
>
>In keeping with the purpose of the trial, much of the defense testimony and Crown
>cross-examination was taken up in examination of
>passages from the booklet, Did Six Million Really Die?, which was written by
>Englishman Richard Verrall under the pen name of
>Richard Harwood. There was general agreement among the defense witnesses that the
>Harwood booklet, which was first published in
>1974, is a relatively early and somewhat deficient revisionist work. Irving and Weber
>testified that, in spite of some errors, mostly of a
>minor nature, the booklet's arguments are essentially sound. 
>
>Legal Difficulties
>
>Each of the six major defense witnesses (with the exception of Weber), have, like
>Zündel himself, been subjected to severe legal
>difficulties. Faurisson testified that he would continue his historical activities no
>matter what his fate might be, in spite of the previous legal harassment and brutal
>physical attacks against him. Of course, such measures against historians who
>question the Extermination Thesis are a striking demonstration of the panic amongst
>propagandists whose lies and distortions have been exposed by a small, poorly
>financed group of courageous historians motivated by an idealistic search for the
>truth. 
>
>At the conclusion of his testimony, Weber pointed out that he was appearing as a
>witness with no compensation other than personal
>satisfaction -- quite in contrast to Browning, who was being paid $150 per hour by
>the Canadian government. Faurisson mentioned the
>case of Francois Duprat, a French teacher who was murdered in 1978 because he had
>been distributing Harwood's Did Six Million
>Really Die?. 
>
>Partisan Warfare
>
>Nearly all of the major witnesses, both for the prosecution and for Zündel, pointed
>out that many deaths of Jews resulted from actions
>by the Einsatzgruppen, German field security police units that were responsible for
>protecting German soldiers from the devastating
>actions of partisans, irregular Communist combat forces. Because Jews were
>disproportionately represented among the partisans,
>measures taken against them resulted in heavy Jewish losses. 
>
>Following the summaries of testimonies in the book is an epilogue with Judge Thomas's
>reasoning for sentencing Zündel to nine months
>in prison, a very valuable pictorial section that includes 230 slides presented by
>Felderer, a condensed version of the Leuchter Report
>(which Judge Thomas would not permit the jury to see), a facsimile reprint of the
>entire text of Harwood's Did Six Million Really Die?,
>and a helpful bibliography and comprehensive index. The two final pages reproduce
>Zündel's January 1993 appeal for compensation for
>wrongful prosecution in the wake of the history-making August 27, 1992, ruling by the
>Supreme Court of Canada invalidating the entire
>trial on constitutional grounds, thus acquitting Zündel. 
>
>'Absolute Necessity'
>
>This book is an absolute necessity for every library of universities and academic
>centers where modern history is taught, and indeed for
>any honest scholar of modern history who deals, even tangentially, with the
>"Holocaust" question. With all due respect for earlier works
>by revisionist historians on this issue, this book now assumes the position of the
>most important reference work on the "Holocaust"
>issue. Advocates of the Extermination Thesis ignore it at the risk of making fools of
>themselves.
>
>
>Charles E. Weber received a doctorate in German literature from the University of
>Cincinnati in 1954, and has taught at the University
>of Cincinnati, the University of Missouri, Louisiana State University, and the
>University of Tulsa (Oklahoma). He has served as Head
>of the Department of Modern Languages at the University of Tulsa. Dr. Weber (no
>relation to this Journal's editor) publishes the
>Bulletin of the "Committee for the Reexamination of the History of the Second World
>War." He is a member of this Journal's Editorial
>Advisory Committee.
>
>
>This review appeared in the March/April 1995 Journal of Historical Review, and is
>copyrighted by the Institute for Historical Review. 
>
>
>Did Six Million Really Die? is available from: 
>
>Ernst Zündel 
>Samisdat Publishers 
>206 Carlton Street 
>Toronto, Ontario M5A 2L1 
>Canada
>
>and
>
>Institute For Historical Review 
>Post Office Box 2739 
>Newport Beach, California 92659 
>
>This article is taken from The Journal for Historical Review, PO Box 2739, Newport
>Beach, CA 92659, USA. Subscriptions to the
>Journal are $40 per year (6 issues). Reproduction of this material is authorized as
>long as credit is given to the Institute for Historical
>Review.
>
>
>Last modified on: 2/20/97 
>
>URL: http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/jhr/v15/v15n2p37_Weber.html
>
>end of review
>=================================================================
>Also visit:
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/ Greg Raven's Website
>http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english/welcome.html Zundelsite
>http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~lpauling/ Student Revisionist Resource Site
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/LEUCHTER/leuchtertoc.html 
>http://www.codoh.com/irving/irving.html David Irving 
>http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust 
>http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz/ Arthur R. Butz 
>http://www.air-photo.com/ Air Photo Evidence (John Ball) 
>http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html Adelaide Institute 
>http://www.hoffman-info.com" Michael Hoffman's II Site
>http://www.codoh.com/rudolf/rudreport/rudreport.html Rudolf Report
>http://www.ussliberty.org/jim/ussliberty/welcome.html USS Liberty Site
>http://www.first-amendment.com/ygg/ (Library of Yggdrasil)
>http://www.abbc.com/aaargh/ (*Excellent French revisionist site*)
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Michael
>nationalist@juno.com
>"http://www.natall.com"
>"http://www.natvan.com"
>
>National Vanguard Books
>P.O. Box 330
>Hillsboro, WV   24946
>
>"No man has come to true greatness who has not felt
>in some degree that his life belongs to his race."
>
>                                ----Phillips Brooks
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sun Nov 30 08:52:47 EST 1997
Article: 150900 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.libertarian,alt.society.liberalism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.edu.sollentuna.se!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Historical Revisionism "What we say - what we do not say"
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3483bb2d.45878030@news.hollinet.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:31:46 GMT
Lines: 226
Xref: news.trends.ca talk.politics.libertarian:239909 alt.society.liberalism:101484 alt.politics.usa.constitution:124011 alt.revisionism:150900

For thorough refutation of the "revisionist" position see:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar

Regards,

Rich Green

In article <3483bb2d.45878030@news.hollinet.com>,
Michael  wrote:
>Date sent:        Thu, 5 Jun 1997 04:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
>To:               irimland@cts.com
>From:             ezundel@cts.com (E. Zundel)
>Subject:          ZGram - June 5, 1997 - "What we say - and what we do not say"
>
>Copyright (c) 1997 - Ingrid A. Rimland
>
>June 5, 1997
>
>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
>
>As I am sure you do, I find myself repeating over and over again what we say and what
>we do not say.  Blessedly, somebody by the name of Bruce Hagen (pseudonym?) has
>summarized a neat and concise PRECIS OF HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM.
>
>Since it came to me via e-mail from a newsgroup, I assume that it is in the public
>domain.  Unless I soon hear from Bruce - or someone who knows Bruce so I can trace
>the copyright - I will make it into a flyer in multiples of 100 which you may have in
>exchange for a donation (to offset costs) on behalf of the Zundelsite efforts, it
>being information outreach.
>
>If you are interested in spreading light instead of heat, just kindly let me know.
>
>Here goes:
>
>Observers of the debate about the Holocaust may come away with some
>grotesque misimpressions about Holocaust Revisionism from the postings that appear on
>the Internet, pro and con. Here is what Holocaust Revisionism is and is not:
>
>1 - Revisionists object to the terminology "THE Holocaust," which by
>implication suggests it was unique, monumental, over-arching, perhaps even the
>central historical event of our century if not epoch. In fact there have been many
>holocausts over the centuries, a good portion of them in our own Twentieth century.
>The Jewish Holocaust is merely one of them.
>
>From the point of view of the world as a whole it is far from the greatest or most
>terrible, Hollywood to the contrary notwithstanding. A marked improvement in both
>accuracy and objectivity can be achieved if the term "Jewish Holocaust" is
>substituted for the term "THE Holocaust."
>
>2 - Having stated the previous, it is therefore obvious that Revisionists do not
>"deny" the Jewish Holocaust as their critics claim. (Though of course it is
>understandable why those critics assert this; if, in a debate about the shape of the
>earth, you can successfully pin on someone the label "flat-earther," you've scored
>big points even if what they say is very far from the absurdity of such a posture.)
>Revisionists are, in fact, Holocaust DIMINISHERS, not deniers. They are questioners
>about what they believe are significant exaggerations in the Holocaust tale, and they
>are critics of the view that somehow this historical event is beyond discussion on
>pain of
>being placed in the category of child-molester or worse, shunned by
>society, even fined and imprisoned by some so-called free countries in the western
>world.
>
>3 - Revisionists do not deny that there was much Jewish suffering during WW II, that
>there were many Jews who had property confiscated wrongfully, that many Jews died of
>disease or starvation in terrible conditions or were killed, that there were terrible
>brutalities and atrocities committed against Jews by Germans and others. None of this
>do Revisionists deny.
>
>Revisionists do diminish the impact of these facts by pointing out that WWII was the
>bloodiest, deadliest, most atrocity-ridden conflict in the history of man and that
>there was criminal behavior on all sides. One need merely mention Dresden, Hiroshima,
>Nagasaki, the deadly carpet bombing of German and Japanese working class living
>areas, the Soviet rape of Germany in their 1945 advance, the treatment of German
>civilians and German POW's after the war. One could go on almost ad infinitum in this
>recitation of atrocities. Fifty million - some say sixty million - died as a result
>of the war. Was there more criminal behavior on one side than the other?
>Perhaps. Perhaps not. Many revisionists would probably tend to say no,
>because:
>
>4 - Contrary to Holocaust Mythology there was no attempt by Nazis, or
>anyone else, to exterminate the Jews. There was an attempt, largely
>successful in the areas controlled by the Axis, to expel the Jews from
>Europe. In the context of the 1990's it was a terrible undertaking. In a different
>context, the context of European history over the last two
>millennia, the expulsion of the Jews from this region or that region was not
>uncommon. Historically there seems to be something about the Jews that brings forth a
>plenitude of animosity on the part of people amongst whom they live.
>
>5 - What is the basis for Revisionists asserting there was no attempted genocide of
>the Jews? The linch-pin in this argument is simply that there were no gas chambers.
>None.  Zero.  Nada.  There is NO evidence of gas chambers that an objective person
>can find credible. There is growing credible evidence that what purport to be the
>remains of gas chambers at Auschwitz, and elsewhere, are frauds - less believable
>than Potemkin villages. There are NO documents, NO orders, NO planning, NO
>blueprints, NO photographs, NO autopsies - NOTHING that is definitively or even
>reasonably credible to support gas chambers. It is not believable that an enterprise
>as massive as the extermination through gassing of six million people in two or three
>years in a chaotic environment would not leave behind some
>physical evidence, some documentary remains. And yet there isn't any. As Professor
>Arno Mayer, the Princeton historian (who is Jewish), has said, 
>
>"Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and
>unreliable." He wouldn't make such an admission if any credible evidence existed.
>
> And he was writing in the late 1980's.
>
>6 - What does exist - as Revisionists are as aware as anyone - are, by the tens or
>even hundreds of thousands, testimonies and confessions. Many, if not most, of the
>testimonies are preposterous, preternatural, not in keeping with the laws of the
>physical world. The confessions (were) typically made by persons seeking desperately
>to curry favor with their captors or their jailers, to save their lives and the lives
>of their families in the prostrate world of utterly defeated Nazi Germany. Most are
>"coerced" confessions, as in "sign this or we'll pull some more of your fingernails
>out. Or we'll turn your wife and children over to the Russians."
>
>7. Also existing are testimonies of survivors of the concentration camps, of camp
>personnel, of nearby civilians who had some connection or other with the camps,
>testimonies which completely contradict the notion that massive extermination
>programs were ongoing. All of these testimonies are of course discounted and
>denigrated because they do not further Holocaustery. And then there are the aerial
>photographs made during the war by allied fly-overs of Auschwitz and other camps
>which lend no support whatever to the Holocaust story.
>
>8 - Why would so many people lie? is the question invariably put to
>Revisionists. Some lie because it is quite profitable. There is no business like
>Shoah Business, said one Jewish observer some years ago in a candid moment. Others
>lie because it is helpful to Israel, or for any of thousands of other perfectly
>understandable reasons. Lying, or mythologizing, is a common human trait according to
>Joseph Campbell. Many others among the testifiers are not lying. They believe
>sincerely in what they proclaim about the gas chambers, about having seen them, about
>having seen the victims, about having seen the smoke rise from the stacks, etc. etc.
>They are "honest and true believers" (as Elizabeth Loftus would put it) in the myth
>because it is important to them and to the Jewish people that the myth survive. The
>Holocaust has become the unifying myth of modern Jewry, as we all know. Even Jews who
>believe in the Holocaust will admit this if they are honest. Some people believe in
>Jesus, some in Mohammed, some in the efficacy of crystals, some in the Jewish
>Holocaust Myth. Revisionists for the most part are non-believers in mythology.
>
>9 - There were no gas chambers but there were many Jews who died or were killed. They
>were executed by the thousands for opposing German advances toward the east, for
>partisan activities connected with that opposition, for numerous other reasons. Jews
>by the tens of thousands died in the concentration camps of deadly epidemics of
>disease, they died in the latter stages of the war of starvation when Germany was
>collapsing. (Professor Mayer, a rare historian, has admitted many more Jews died this
>way than were executed.) How many died during the war? A lot. Most Revisionists would
>probably say half a million, perhaps as many as a million. But not six million. Too
>many survived the war for that number to be anything but part of the Jewish Holocaust
>Myth. If a million did die it was but two per cent of the total slaughter of World
>War II. That's the reality of the Jewish Holocaust. Two per cent. 98% of the blood
>bath of World War II involved other than Jews. Why, Revisionists ask, is almost the
>sole concentration today on Jewish deaths?   Why has the Jewish Holocaust become
>"the" event of the 1930'S and 1940's around which all others revolve
>including even World War II itself?
>
>10 - The truth about what Revisionists claim, in summary, is this:
>
> 1) The Jewish Holocaust is but one of many Holocausts even in the twentieth century;
>
> 2) There were no gas chambers and no attempt by the Germans to
>exterminate Jewry, expulsion being very different from extermination; 
>
>3)The common figure of six million is too large by 500% at least; 4) World War II was
>a slaughterhouse of unprecedented proportions for everyone involved - not just Jews,
>who made up perhaps 2% of the total fatalities.
>
>In 50 or 100 years, when the Holocaust Myth has met its proper demise, what
>Revisionists believe today will be standard historical canon from which only cranks
>and religious zealots will dissent.
>
>Thought for the Day:
>
>Can you imagine what the records would read like if we allowed a "rape
>victim" to be the witness, prosecutor, judge, jury and official recorder in such
>cases?
>
>( Bradley Smith of CODOH International,  http://www.codoh.com/ )
>
>________
>________
>________ The Zundelsite can be found at
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/
>
>end of ZGram
>=============================================================
>Thanks, Ingrid.
>
>Please visit these revisionist sites:
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/ Greg Raven's Website
>http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english/welcome.html Zundelsite
>http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~lpauling/ Student Revisionist Resource Site
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/LEUCHTER/leuchtertoc.html 
>http://www.codoh.com/irving/irving.html David Irving 
>http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust 
>http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz/ Arthur R. Butz 
>http://www.air-photo.com/ Air Photo Evidence (John Ball) 
>http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html Adelaide Institute 
>http://www.hoffman-info.com" Michael Hoffman's II Site
>http://www.codoh.com/rudolf/rudreport/rudreport.html Rudolf Report
>
>
>
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Michael
>nationalist@juno.com
>"http://www.natall.com"
>"http://www.natvan.com"
>
>National Vanguard Books
>P.O. Box 330
>Hillsboro, WV   24946
>
>"No man has come to true greatness who has not felt
>in some degree that his life belongs to his race."
>
>                                ----Phillips Brooks
>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sun Nov 30 08:52:47 EST 1997
Article: 150925 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.lebanon
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.edu.sollentuna.se!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!137.192.241.248!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Stalin targets the Jews
Message-ID: 
Followup-To: alt.revisionism
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3426788d.80893704@pc24.spectratek.co.uk>  <347f6032.1480520@news.phoenix.net> <347F4CBC.1328F976@veritas.nizkor.org>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 04:36:42 GMT
Lines: 73
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.politics.white-power:105879 alt.revisionism:150925 alt.politics.nationalism.white:83599 soc.culture.palestine:39150 soc.culture.lebanon:40645

Followups set.


>From   Hannah Arendt _the Origins of Totalitarianism_
	New Edition with Added Prefaces, Harcourt & Brace 1979
        pp. xxxviii-xi.  [All typos are mine-RJG]

     In our context, developments in the Soviet Union, especially
     after 1948 -the year of Zhdanov's mysterious death and the
     "Leningrad affair"- are of greater importance.  For the first time
     after the Great Purge, Stalin had a great number of high and
     highest officoals executed, and we know for certain that this
     was planned as the beginning of another nationwide purge.  This
     would have been touched off by the "Doctor's plot" had Stalin's
     death not intervened.  A group of mostly Jewish physicians were
     accused of having plotted "to wipe out the leading cadres of the
     USSR." [30] ...Moreover, the very content of the absurd accusation
     against the physicians, that they would kill off people in leading
     positions all over the country, must have filled with fearful
     forebodings all those who were acquainted with Stalin's method
     of accusing a fictitious enemy of the crime he himself was about
     to commit. (The best known example is of course his accusation
     that Tukhachevski conspired with Germany at the very moment when
     Stalin was contemplating an alliance with the Nazis.)
     ...

     The most dramatic new element in this last purge, which Stalin
     planned in the last years of his life, was a decisive shift in
     ideology, the introduction of a Jewish world conspiracy.  For
     years, the ground for this change had been carefully laid in
     a number of trials in the satellite countries -the Rajk trial 
     in Hungary, the Ana Pauker affair in Rumania, and, in 1952, the
     Slansky trial in Czechoslovakia.  In these preparatory measures,
     high party officials were singled out because of their "Jewish
     bourgeois" origins and accused of Zionism; this accusation
     was gradually changed to implicate notoriously non-Zionist
     agencies (especially the American Jewish Joint Distribution
     Committee), in order to indicate that all Jews were Zionists,
     and all Zionist groups "hirelings of American Imperialism." [32]
     There was of course nothing new in the "crime" of Zionism, but
     as the campaign progressed and began to center on Jews in the
     Soviet Union, another significant change took place: Jews now
     stood accused of "cosmopolitanism" rather than Zionism, and the
     patter of accusations that developed out of this slogan followed
     ever more closely the Nazi pattern of a Jewish world conspiracy
     in the sense of the Elders of Zion.  It now became startlingly
     clear how deep an impression this mainstay of Nazi ideology
     must have made on Stalin -the first indications of this had
     been in evidence ever since the Hitler-Stalin pact- partly,
     to be sure, because of its obvious propaganda value in Russia
     as in all of the satellite countries, where anti-Jewish feeling
     was widespread and anti-Jewish propaganda had always enjoyed great
     popularity, but partly also because this type of a fictitious
     world conspiracy provided an ideologically more suitable background
     for totalitarian claims to world rule than Wall Street, capitalism,
     and imperialism.  The open, unashamed adoption of what had become
     to the whole world the most prominent sign of Nazism was the last
     compliment Stalin paid to his late colleague and rival in total
     domination with whom, much to his chagrin, he had not been able
     to come to a lasting agreement.

[30] Armstrong, op. cit., pp. 235 ff.
[32] Armstrong, op cit., p. 236
[op. cit. refers to: _The Politics of Totalitarianism: The Communist
Party of the Soviet Union from 1934 to the Present, New York, 1961-my
note-RJG]


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sun Nov 30 08:52:47 EST 1997
Article: 150930 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: The secret agenda of Holocaust deniers. Ala Nizkor
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3483c7fa.5845502@dnews.pacificnet.net>  <3480251B.4C5C@earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 04:42:57 GMT
Lines: 46
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150930

In article <3480251B.4C5C@earthlink.net>,
Richard G. Philllips  wrote:
>Richard J Green wrote:
>> 
>> In article <3483c7fa.5845502@dnews.pacificnet.net>,
>> tom moran  wrote:
>> 
>> >       Even though the one time well publicized figure of 4,000,000
>> >exterminations at Auschwitz has been reduced down to a current
>> >1,000,000 and even though all the camps in Germany that were once well
>> >publicized to have been extermination camps and are no longer held to
>> >be and even though many other formerly held allegations have since
>> >been deleted from the Holocaust lie, Nizkor say's:
>
>====================================================
>PHillips
>
>Aha, then you are admitting these past falsifications, yes? Doesn't this
>bear very directly on the credibility of Holocaust upholders. If they at
>once time promulgated notions since proven to be lies, why are they any
>more to be believed today.

They are not the same people.  Historians have known and reported from
very early on that the Soviet estimate was false.  Responsible
historians count from 5-6 million total deaths that include
approximately 1 million from Auschwitz-Birkenau.

The real point here is that Zeyde (Tom Moran) knowingly lied.
All of this has been explained ad infinitum.

[snip]

>> Revisionism had nothing to do with the communist claim nor its rebuttal
>> by respected historians.
>> 
>> http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/four-million-01.html

Best,

Rich Green

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Sun Nov 30 08:52:47 EST 1997
Article: 150938 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Unanswered Questions about Gas Chambers
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <65msat$k4q$1@news.ox.ac.uk>  <65pp4d$rl1$1@news.ox.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 04:57:47 GMT
Lines: 84
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:150938


In article <65pp4d$rl1$1@news.ox.ac.uk>,
Marco de Innocentis  wrote:
>Richard J Green (no_spam_rjg@world.std.com) wrote:
>
>: Mr. Innocentus should know the answers to some of these questions as I
>: have provided them before.  I am not attempting to answer all of the
>
>Mr Groon should perhaps realise he's not so world-famous as he may have
>otherwise been led to believe. I have never heard of your work,
>unfortunately.

Perhaps, I mistook Mr. Innocentis for the person of Portuguese descent
who was spamming the what-if groups.  I already refuted that spam.
I apologize for the misspelling.

>However, as it happens I'm not a specialist in chemistry and therefore I'm
>unable to judge whether your essay is a serious piece of work or a lot of
>nonsense. 

Revisionist tactic 676: pretend that what you do not understand is
nonsense.  I'm sure that you will refrain from employing this tactic.

>Besides, a central reference in your article is the paper by
>Markiewicz, Gubala and Labedz, whose reference is rather unclear:
>
>: 2.Markiewicz, Gubala, and Labedz, Z Zagadnien Sqdowych, z. XXX, 1994
>: 17-27 
>  
>What journal is this? The name sounds Polish - does it have an English
>translation I could find in my University library?

The only English version that I know of is at:

>
>:     available at
>: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/ 
>
>This link doesn't seem to work.

Try again.  If it does not work, I'll send you a copy.
>
>: questions, only to show that the implications of the questions
>: concerning blue-staining are not at all what Mr. Cole pretends.
>
>: In order to demonstrate anything based on this staining, one needs to be
>: able to show the mechanism of its formation and the rate of its
>: formation under various conditions.  My essay at
>
>: http://world.std.com/~rjg/blue.html
>
>: demonstrates the inadequacy of "revisionist" positions here.
>
>Actually there is no intrinsic revisionist "position" in Mr Cole's
>questions. 

Mr. Cole's questions are deliberately deceptive: he pretends to know
things that he does not.  

>They are just questions. If anyone else uses them to fabricate
>a "position" of their own, that is no concern of mine. I am not interested
>in whatever nonsense Mr Rudolf may have written. I am not a "holocaust
>denier", I am merely trying to investigate this matter with a scientific
>attitude.

Good.  Perhaps, I really have mistaken you for someone else.

>: Markiewicz, Gubala, and Labedz demonstrated that HCN was present in the 
>: homicidal gas chambers at levels above background.  They used a calibrated 
>: method and that they discriminated against Prussian blue whose origin is not 
>: clear.  Leuchter and Rudolf did not do so.
>
>: http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/forensic.html
>: http://world.std.com/~rjg/blue.html

Best,

Rich Green

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Mon Dec  1 09:58:23 EST 1997
Article: 151121 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ais.net!news1.chicago.iagnet.net!iagnet.net!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3484fd2f.203991669@dnews.pacificnet.net> <348206e2.458552127@dnews.pacificnet.net>  <65p9jq$jne$1@news.trends.ca>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:01:49 GMT
Lines: 35
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:151121

In article <65p9jq$jne$1@news.trends.ca>,
Kenneth McVay OBC  wrote:
>In article ,
>Richard J Green  wrote:
>
>>>>http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/atomic-01.html
>
>[snip Moron]
>
>>On the contraray it is a case of bandwidth.  Any semi-competent person
>>can  click the right doodad to get their rigii to point there, Zeyde.
>
>Any semi-competent person can do that. 
>Any competent person can do that.
>
>Mr. Moran, however, cannot do that.

Perhaps, we should take up a collection to get him a babysitter to click
them for him.  Alternatively, we could enter him in a continuing ed
course "Up and Running with Netscape."


>
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/m/moran-tom/


Best,

Rich Green

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Mon Dec  1 09:58:23 EST 1997
Article: 151122 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!bofh.vszbr.cz!peerfeed.ncal.verio.net!news-out.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!137.192.241.248!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Various Holocaust Details
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3484fd2f.203991669@dnews.pacificnet.net>  <347fa8e5.3645808@news.uniserve.com> 
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:07:21 GMT
Lines: 47
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:151122

In article ,
Dene Bebbington   wrote:
>Hilary Ostrov  wrote:
>>On Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:22:08 +0000, in
>>, Dene Bebbington
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Richard J Green  wrote:
>>>>In article ,
>>>>Dene Bebbington   wrote:
>>>>>tom moran  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       About 99% of the Holocaust story's evidence is based on personal
>>>>>>accounts. Listed here are some of the details that appear within the
>>>>>>general testimony.
>>>>>
>>>>>About 99% of Mr Moran's posts contain no substantiation or references to
>>>>>sources.
>>>>
>>>>I demand a source, sir, for the assertion that about 1% of Mr. Moran's
>>>>posts contain any substantiation or references to sources whatsoever.
>>>
>>>Damn, I've been rumbled! ;-)
>>
>>Indeed you have!  I am *so* disappointed.  Mr. Bebbington, I've always
>>counted on you to be truthful and accurate ... and Mr. Green has
>>proven (beyond the shadow of a doubt) that you have attempted to pull
>>one over on us.  

>
>That's the last time I try to catch Mr Green out, he's too clever by
>half! ;-)

[snip]

It comes from wearing an aluminum foil hat to protect myself from rays
>from  Nazi UFOs.

Best,

Rich Green

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 


From no_spam_rjg@world.std.com Mon Dec  1 09:58:23 EST 1997
Article: 151123 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: news.trends.ca!hub.org!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.idt.net!mr.net!coop.net!world!no_spam_rjg
From: no_spam_rjg@world.std.com (Richard J Green)
Subject: Re: Stalin targets the Jews
Message-ID: 
Organization: What makes you think I'm organized?
References: <3426788d.80893704@pc24.spectratek.co.uk> <347F4CBC.1328F976@veritas.nizkor.org>  <880885846snz@augur.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:25:20 GMT
Lines: 19
Xref: news.trends.ca alt.revisionism:151123

In article <880885846snz@augur.demon.co.uk>,
Caesar  wrote:
>
>Stalin was an anti-semite. So what?

It kind of blows a hole in claim that all the crimes of Stalinism are
the fault of the Jews.  Stalin was in the same mold as our White Power
Rangers' heroes.

Best,

Rich Green


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard J. Green  
rjg@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~rjg 



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