From firstname.lastname@example.org Mon Apr 1 11:12:47 PST 1996 Article: 29485 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!gatech!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu!dmittleman From: email@example.com (Daniel Mittleman) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: "10,000" extermination camps - "documented". Date: 31 Mar 1996 15:38 MST Organization: University of Arizona (BPA) Lines: 220 Distribution: world Message-ID: <31MAR199615385217@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> References: <firstname.lastname@example.org> <23MAR199607061630@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <email@example.com> <30MAR199619495864@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.50 posted/emailed to Tom Moran Yesterday I responded to a Tom Moran post. He said: "I take it you would have the group believe the "10,000" extermination camps. Do you think Goldhagen will list all 10,000 in the yet to be released book, complete with "documentation". I'll just wait for your 1/2 %. Hear from you next week, you say?" I said: "Well, here is what I am going to do. I am going to go to the library this weekend (you know, a big building, like the ones they have in Pennsylvania) and look up the NYTimes op-ed piece you quoted from. Since you selectively quoted from the essay, I want to read the whole thing..." I went to the library this morning and took a look at the New York Times Op-Ed page from March 17, 1996. What follows is the entire essay contributed by Daniel Goldhagen. Note carefully that the sections in lower case are the portions of the article Tom Moran posted in alt.revisionism; the sections in upper case are the portions of the article which Tom omitted (sometimes indicating he had clipped sections and sometimes not indicating such.) I leave it to the reader to determine whether Tom biased either the meaning or the substantive proof of Goldhagen's assertions by his chosen omissions. More comments after the article. ============== The People's Holocaust By Daniel Jonah Goldhagen Cambridge, Mass. One day in November 1942, at the height of the Germans' systematic slaughter of Polish Jewry, men serving in a battalion of about 500 reserve policemen learned that they would be undertaking yet another genocidal killing, this time of the Jews of Lukow. That evening, according to one of the battalion members, a peculiar thing happened: "An entertainment unit of Berlin policemen . . . were our guests.... The members of this unit had also learned of the forthcoming shooting of the Jews and indeed offered, even pleaded emphatically, for permission to participate in the execution of these Jews. This strange request was granted by the battalion." These entertainers, like so many other ordinary Germans, willingly killed Jews. Contrary to what is commonly believed, the Germans who executed Jews were not exclusively a select group of Nazi fanatics, not only members of the SS but also tens of thousands of ordinary Germans from all walks of life. A trove of files confirms this fact. DURING POSTWAR LEGAL INVESTIGATIONS, THE WEST GERMAN AUTHORITIES INTERROGATED TENS OF THOUSANDS OF FORMER KILLERS AND PUT A FEW THOUSAND ON TRIAL. These records have been used only selectively by scholars, in part because they are scattered throughout the justice system and not stored in historical archives. My extensive research into these files has produced a new portrait of the Germans who killed Jews and a new interpretation of the Holocaust itself. The number of Germans working in concentration camps, ghettos, police battalions and other institutions THE NUMBER OF GERMANS WORKING IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS, GHETTOS, POLICE BATTALIONS AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS INVOLVED IN THE GENOCIDE WAS FAR GREATER THAN PEOPLE REALIZE. Although a definitive estimate is difficult to make, it is clear that in excess of 100,000 Germans, and probably far more, helped exterminate European Jews. A few figures provide a sense of the vastness of the genocidal machinery. For instance, it has been documented that more than 10,000 camps of various sizes and kinds existed THROUGHOUT EUROPE FOR INCARCERATING AND destroying Jews and non-Jews. THESE CAMPS REQUIRED AN ENORMOUS STAFF. THE GERMAN GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY IN CHARGE OF INVESTIGATING NAZI CRIMES HAS CATALOGUED MORE THAN 333,000 PEOPLE SUSPECTED OF WORKING IN THE VARIOUS INSTITUTIONS THAT WERE USED TO KILL JEWS AND OTHERS. FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WERE 38 POLICE BATTALIONS, WITH A TOTAL OF AT LEAST 19,000 MEN, THAT PARTICIPATED IN THE GENOCIDE. MOST OF THESE MEN WERE NOT PROFESSIONAL POLICEMEN OR MEMBERS OF THE NAZI PARTY OR THE SS. The Nazi authorities, apparently acting on the assumption that any able-bodied German would consent to kill Jews, assigned virtually anyone who was available to the task. Their assumption was borne out. MANY OTHER GERMANS ALSO SUPPORTED THE PERSECUTION AND EVEN THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWS. THEY DID SO BECAUSE ANTI-SEMITISM WAS A DEEP-ROOTED PART OF GERMAN CULTURE-EVEN BEFORE HITLER CAME TO POWER. IT WAS SO WIDESPREAD AND VIRULENT THAT MANY WHO RESISTED HITLER SHARED THE PREVAILING DEMONIC IMAGE OF JEWS. In December 1941, the leadership of seven regional Protestant churches IN GERMANY ISSUED A PROCLAMATION THAT DECLARED THE JEWS, OWING TO THEIR PUTATIVE RACIAL CONSTITUTION, TO BE INCAPABLE OF BEING SAVED BY BAPTISM AND AND SAID THEY WERE THE "BORN ENEMIES OF THE WORLD AND GERMANY." IT urged that the "severest measures against the Jews be adopted." IT IS NOT SURPRISING THEREFORE THAT THE KILLERS COMMONLY BELIEVED THAT JEWISH PEOPLE WERE EVIL AND DANGEROUS IN THE EXTREME AND THEREFORE HAD TO BE ELIMINATED. A POLICE BATTALION MEMBER WHO SERVED IN THE CHELMNO DEATH CAMP EXPLAINED IN POSTWAR LEGAL TESTIMONY: "IT DID NOT AT ALL OCCUR TO ME THAT THESE ORDERS COULD BE UNJUST.... I WAS THEN OF THE CONVICTION THAT THE JEWS WERE NOT INNOCENT BUT GUILTY. I BELIEVED THE PROPAGANDA THAT ALL JEWS WERE CRIMINALS AND SUBHUMANS AND THAT THEY WERE THE CAUSE OF GERMANY'S DECLINE AFTER THE FIRST WORLD WAR. THE THOUGHT THAT ONE SHOULD DISOBEY OR EVADE THE ORDER TO PARTICIPATE IN THE EXTERMINATION OF THE JEWS DID NOT THEREFORE ENTER MY MIND AT ALL." A MEMBER OF ANOTHER POLICE UNIT STATED: "THE JEW WAS NOT ACKNOWLEDGED BY US TO BE A HUMAN BEING." THE GERMANS WHO KILLED JEWS COULD HAVE REFUSED WITHOUT RISKING DEATH OR PUNISHMENT. THEY CHOSE TO KILL. MANY KNEW THEY COULD REFUSE. THEIR COMMANDERS TOLD THEM SO. German courts have repeatedly concluded that during the Holocaust no German was ever killed, sent to a concentration camp, jailed or punished in any serious way for refusing to kill Jews. HEINRICH HIMMLER, WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THE EXTERMINATION PROGRAM, HELD THAT NO GERMAN SHOULD BE FORCED TO DO SO. THE KILLERS' ANTI-SEMITISM ALSO EXPLAINS WHY, WITH EXCEPTIONS, THE GERMANS TYPICALLY ACTED WITH ZEAL, BRUTALIZING AND TORTURING THEIR VICTIMS. AS ONE POLICE BATTALION MEMBER TESTIFIED: "I MUST FIRST AND FOREMOST STATE CATEGORICALLY THAT WHENEVER THE SUPERIOR REQUESTED THEM, THERE WERE ENOUGH VOLUNTEERS FOR EXECUTIOR SQUADS." MANY KILLERS EXHIBITED PRIDE IR THEIR DEEDS, ROUTINELY TAKING PHOTO GRAPHS OF WHAT THEY DID TO JEWS. A MEMBER OF A POLICE BATTALION SAID SUCH PHOTOGRAPHS "WERE LAID OUT HANGING ON THE WALL AND ANYONE, AS HE PLEASED, COULD ORDER COPIES OF THEM." HE CONTINUED: "I TOO ACQUIRED THESE PHOTOGRAPHS THROUGH SUCH AN ORDER EVEN THOUGH I HAD NOT ALWAYS PARTICIPATED IN THE EVENTS THAT THE PHOTOGRAPHS DEPICT." FEW PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THE SERBS WHO BUTCHERED AND BRUTALIZED MUSLIMS IN BOSNIA WERE FORCED TO DO SO. FEW BELIEVE THAT THE HUTUS WHO SLAUGHTERED TUTSIS IN RWANDA, THE TURKS WHO KILLED ARMENIANS AND THE KHMER ROUGE WHO DECIMATED THE CAMBODIAN PEOPLE THOUGHT THAT THE WERE DOING WRONG. ONLY WHEN DISCUSSING THE HOLOCAUST DO PEOPLE ROUTINELY SAY THAT THE KILLERS WERE UNWILLING. THIS IS ODD SINCE SO MUCH EVIDENCE DEMONSTRATES THAT THE GERMAN KILLERS WERE LIKE THOSE WHO COMMITTED OTHER MASS SLAUGHTERS. IT IS THE KILLERS THEMSELVES WHO TELL US OF THEIR BASIC VOLUNTARISM, OF THEIR ROUTINE AND UNNECESSARY CRUELTY, THEIR ZEAL IN HUNTING DOWN AND MURDERING JEWS, OF THEIR WIVES' AND THEIR FRIENDS' PRESENCE IN THE KILLING FIELDS AND OF THEIR CELEBRATIONS TO MARK THE DEATH OF JEWS. AS PRESIDENT ROMAN HERZOG OF GERMANY ACKNOWLEDGED BEFORE THE BUNDESTAG EARLIER THIS YEAR, NAZI IDEOLOGY HAD EFFECTS THAT "WERE SO HORRIBLE, BECAUSE IT GRADUALLY BECAME PART OF PUBLIC OPINION, BECAUSE IT WAS GRADUALLY INJECTED INTO PEOPLE'S MINDS." IF AFTER 50 YEARS THE PRESIDENT OF TODAY'S DEMOCRATIC AND FULLY TRANSFORMED GERMANY CAN FINALLY SPEAK THE PARAMOUNT TRUTH OF THE HOLOCAUST -- NAMELY, THAT THE ANTI-SEMITIC BELIEFS THAT INSPIRED HITLER ALSO INSPIRED A GOOD PART OF THE GERMAN PEOPLE DURING THE NAZI ERA -- THEN EVERYONE ELSE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO THE SAME. The inescapable, fundamental truth is that for the Holocaust to have occurred, an enormous number of ordinary Germans had to become Hitler's willing executioners. ------------------------- Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, assistant professor of government and social studies at Harvard, is the author of the forthcoming book "Hitler's Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust." ============= Three points: 1. Tom's assertion up top was, "I take it you would have the group believe the '10,000' extermination camps." Tom is claiming that all 10,000 camps Goldhagen mentions were extermination camps. In fact what Goldhagen says is, "...it has been documented that more than 10,000 camps of various sizes and kinds existed THROUGHOUT EUROPE FOR INCARCERATING AND destroying Jews and non-Jews. [Note the capitalized text which Tom omitted from his version of the essay.] Goldhagen says there were 10,000 incarceration and extermination camps; Moran says they were extermination camps. Moran carefully clipped out the middle portion of the sentence which broadens the description. Note also that these camps were used to incarcerate both Jews and non-Jews; note that these camps were throughout Europe. A quite broad description. As Goldhagen says "it has been documented," lets wait for his book and see what sort of documentation he provides or cites. 2. Tom has at times followed in the tradition of other deniers and anti-semites (Wayne McGuire -- whom I have emulated today by using my scanner :> -- among others) by stating that there is too much of a focus on the Jews killed in this Holocaust. The argument goes that there is too little focus on the non-Jews killed in this Holocaust (an argument currently being pushed by Matt Giwer) and too little focus on other holocausts (an argument favored by McGuire). Tom has mentioned both arguments in the past. First, Goldhagen -- even though the focus of his work is on the anti-semitism in Germany which led to civilians killing Jews -- directly mentions that the incarceration camps held both Jews and non-Jews alike. Second, and more damning to Moran, is the fact that he chose to clip from his version of the essay comparisons to Bosnia, Rwanda, Armenia, and Cambodia. All in all, this charge from Moran is little different from anything else we have seen before. 3. Goldhagen states that the number of Germans involved in the killings was in the hundreds of thousands (he states "in excess of 100,000" and "333,000" in two different places.) Note that this is still a small minority of Germans. Anyone who might conclude that Goldhagen is blaming all Germans for killing Jews is overreading his essay. daniel david mittleman =========================================================================== Quoth the Raven: "They call me McGuire. Wayne McGuire"
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