The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1996/giwer.0996


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 08:14:55 PDT 1996
Article: 61431 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: to keep you folks up to date
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 12:30:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <50bvjo$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 01  7:29:44 AM CDT 1996
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	Alec Grynspan continues to mail bomb me (in denfense of another
holohugger as his sllippery excuse) and uu.net and its subsidiary
uunet.ca continue to aid and abit his mail bombing despite repeateed
reports of his activities. 

	It is unclear if harrassment of this sort is criminal but is cerrainly
a violation of netiquette. 

	It is also clear that individual terrorist activities by a person who
told me that he did wetwork for the Mossad, i.e. was a murderer for
tha Jewish intelligence organization, so he is happy with this form or
terrorism.
	
	He is a minor player.  He in fact lied about being into wetwork but
there is no reason that I should not gig him on the claim since he
made it to me on the phone.  

	It is the usual braggart claim and it is unlikely to be true.  But
then, he is a profeessed Jew and mailbombs with the concurrance and
approval of UUNET.CA.  




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 08:33:17 PDT 1996
Article: 61436 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Interesting observation
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 13:19:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
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	The holohuggers here are very much believers in witches, demons, gods,
demons and all the rest.
	
	No wonder they believe in the holohuggercaust.  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 08:33:18 PDT 1996
Article: 61438 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 12:59:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
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On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 20:43:54 GMT, dstowers@wolfenet.com (Drew Stowers)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 00:38:21 GMT, qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
>>wrote:

>>>Steven Speilberg created his drek for power, that's all just power for
>>>himself.  Sure, other Jews are stupid and conservative enough to believe 
>>>that the power gained by our rulers will trickle down to ourselves, but
>>>we still have to persuede them, not an easy task.  We will liberate the
>>>Jews from slavery whether they like it or not, even if we have to carry
>>>them to freedom kicking and biting. 

>>	Of course!  The only reason he made Schindler's List was so he could
>>get an Oscar.  Quid pro quo.  I was unaware anyone thought that was a
>>secret.  

>>	There was no way he was going to get an Oscar for something the
>>majority of people liked, ask George Lucas.  

>>	If you want an Oscar in Hollywood, do something Jewish or wait until
>>you are dying like Hitchcock and the rest.  

>

>Matt you poor man.  I seriously doubt that Speilberg would even have
>thought about making _Schindler's List_ if it weren't for you silly
>revisionist.

	Of course he would.  Revision is condemed.  It can not be spoken.
There is nothing to post against.  

	There is no reason to make such a movie unless, in your terms, there
is something to react against, but there is nothing.  There are six
websites at most.  That is the entire publicallcally available
opposion and they did NOT exist when the movie was conceived.  But you
know that.  

	Of course you are encouraged to post what existed prior to the
conception of the movie, pre-1992 as I have read the genesis of SL.

>If revisionist had kept their mouths shut, then the Holocaust would
>have past into memory.  A memory kept alive only in Israel, Germany
>and Poland.  But because of revisionists there is a Shoah Foundation,
>a Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. and Nizkor Project.

	Do you really to claim that if a few pseudo-Nazi fringe groups did not
exist all of the holocaust crap and the slavish support of it Israel
would have vanished?   

>The bitterest pill you and other revisionist must swallow is that
>almost all the current interest in the Holocaust is your doing.

	Even if that were true, the idiocies of the gassing claims will not
change.  They are completely absurd as you know.

>(Some personal advice.  The term 'Blood Libel' is a Nazi phrase.  Not
>a Neo-Nazi phrase, not a antisemitic phrase but a Nazi phrase.  Adolf
>himself used it.  Next time, just use the word 'libel' by itself.)

	You advice is rejected.  Any perons who calls any other person a Nazi,
an antisemite or anything related has committed blood libel.  

	It is the victim who makes the call, not the semite attacker.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 08:39:09 PDT 1996
Article: 41577 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.flame,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.scorched-earth,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: education exemption for copyright laws
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 13:03:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 19:00:49 GMT, klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 23:46:50 -0300, Keith Morrison 
>wrote:

>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>> 
>>>         For what the fantasy life of the copyright infringing conspirators is
>>> worth, the background of the education exemption is that it is
>>> conducted in the classroom and in the classroom only.
>>> 
>>>         Nothing at Nizkor satisfies the meaning of the exemption despite the
>>> knowing lies of those who have posted otherwise.
>>> 
>>>         But then, no need to respond, it is in the hands of the Canadian
>>> authories at the moment for their determination.
>>
>>Well, I'm sure the Canadian authories will get right on it when their
>>constituent authors are finished their latest projects.

>Well, Matt's file is in the hands of the Canadia authorities at the
>moment also. 

>Of course if Matt wrote this himself they are probably at a loss. I
>doubt that either Allan Rock or Mr. Dosangh have a Giwerundean
>translator on staff.

>This from the idoit that told me that Mr. Dosangh was in Ontario and I
>should learn geography. 

	In this country, threatening criminal action to coerse a civil action
is criminal.   

	What point are you trying to make in this post other than some ten
people on this conference have committed criminal offenses uneder the
laws of Canada in addition to the US?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 08:41:52 PDT 1996
Article: 61442 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: defenders oif Keren
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 13:05:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <50c1lf$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <5042ld$ff2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> 
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On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:29:33 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>If Giwer is so smart, and everybody else here so stupid,
>how come Giwer doesn't have a job (poor fellow had to
>retire at 46, there was no one dumb enough to hire him,
>apparently), and we all have jobs?

	Remember, jerkoff, I could retire at 46.  You can no not and enver
will be able to do that, child.

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 09:26:28 PDT 1996
Article: 61455 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Parades His Ignorance and Foolishness: Diesel Engines
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 12:42:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 150
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On 31 Aug 1996 10:30:43 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.org (Ken McVay OBC)
wrote:

>In article , alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) 
>offered this observation with regard to a troll's moral values:

>> MG> We pray for one last landing on the world that gave us birth
>> MG> To rest our eyes on the fleecy skies and the cool green hills of
>> MG> earth

>>For someone that screams about Copyright violations, your lack of
>>attribution to Robert A Heinlein shows what you really are.

>Mr. Giwer has flown his colours even more openly than that,
>Sir. He has plagarized an entire Usenet article and published
>it to a moderated newsgroup under his own name!

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html

>So embarrassing was it when he was caught with his hands _and_
>feet in the proverbial cookie jar that he has refused to utter
>so much as a peep in his own defense. That is, of course, not
>surprising - what, indeed, _could_ the thief say, caught
>creeping down the alley with the goods in his metaphorical
>hands?

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html

>He is not, however, simply a thief, Mr. Grynspan... perhaps you
>have forgotten this this is the selfsame besotted, loudmouthed
>blowhard that tucked his tail firmly between his legs (there
>being little there to impede this process) and bravely fled when 
>offered a golden opportunity to back up his mouth with his chequebook.

>Tiring of his endless stream of evasions, insults and outright
>lies, I offered him an opportunity to put his money where his
>mouth was, and demonstrate that he actually _believed_ the
>crap he serves up as his own pompous brand of historical "reality."

>I offered to let an independent forensics lab determine the
>issue, at, I might add, my expense if it should determine that
>this crude fellow was correct.

>What prompted his immediate "advance to the rear," of course,
>was the other side of the coin - that he would have to meet
>the cost, as a donation to the Nizkor Project, if his foolish
>contention turned out, as it must, to be completely, utterly 
>worthless. At that point, hoisted firmly on his own petard, 
>he ran like the cowardly bully he daily proves himself to be.

>For the details of my offer, I invite you to peruse
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/mcvay-ken/put-up-shut-up.html

>I further invite you, and anyone else among the estimated
>70-Million internet users, to regularly and routinely remind
>this prevaricating failure of a man of his cowardice by
>providing references to the URL cited, and to the offer he so
>obviously dreads.

>This coward, Matt Giwer, is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  

>For many here, no greater compliment can accrue than to be insulted by 
>this contemptable husk of a man.

>For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

>URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/
>URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html
>URL http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/
>URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html
>URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>URL http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/

>Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special 
>newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately 
>ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
>redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.drunken.bastards,
>an equally appropriate dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.

>-- 
>Nizkor Canada          | http://www.nizkor.org
>-----------------------| Remember John Hron
>                       |--------------------------------------
>     http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/


	Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
   CA
   1-604-382-0615

   Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

	The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996.  However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked.  It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.  It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information.  The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.  

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
   1B Systems Management Limited
   5-1601 Bowen Road
   Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
   CA

   (604) 758-2499

   kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA


   Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 10:03:32 PDT 1996
Article: 61464 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Attack of the killer holohuggers
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 12:38:55 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 101
Message-ID: <50c04d$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4vrj1q$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
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On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 16:38:25 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4vrj1q$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:


>>         Who are the uncivil people here?  The holohuggers.  
> 
>"Holohuggers" is a rather uncivil term. So is "fatbroad." So is "Jew-boy."
>But you knew that, liar.

>>         Obviously there is more going on here that meets the eye, mainly that
>> the holohoggers pretend to be organized as Jews and think they can
>> spread terror simply by being Jews.  

>KenMcVay is not Jewish.
>Jaime McCarthy is not Jewish.
>Mark van Alstine is not Jewish.

	I never said any of them were.

	That I why I invetned the term holohugger.

	But you know that.  
 
>But you know that, you liar.
> 
>Sara
> 
>Oh... before I forget:
> 
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to

	You should not repeat this as It requires me to report Ken McVay's DOD
connection.  


	Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
   CA
   1-604-382-0615

   Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

	The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996.  However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked.  It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.  It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information.  The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.  

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
   1B Systems Management Limited
   5-1601 Bowen Road
   Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
   CA

   (604) 758-2499

   kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA


   Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 10:39:34 PDT 1996
Article: 61466 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What is amazing among the holohuggers
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 12:35:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
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	They really believe in spirits.  

	Even more interesting, they believe in the Devil/Satan.

	Even more interesting there are more fewer atheists than there are
people who believe in the devil.

	These are the holohuggers.

	They are superstitious, religion beiieving basket cases.  

	They are so stupid that they really believe there was a Moses, that
the Hebrews were in Israel and an dozen other things to stupid ot
mention.  

	They are dumber than dogshit. 
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 11:44:58 PDT 1996
Article: 61486 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 1996 13:17:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 31 Aug 1996 23:53:20 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: On 30 Aug 1996 14:17:06 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>: anderson) wrote:
>: 
>: >Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: 
>: >: 	Your friend is an idiot.  
>: 
>: >Boy, the evidence for Kurt Stele's thesis that deniers never, ever
>: >call people names just continues to mount.  How could I ever have
>: >doubted him?
>: 
>: 	It is an accurate description for some who believes in the devil.  You
>: too?  

>Actually, Matt, the statement you responded to was that the person
>in question believed in witches--not the devil.  Nevertheless, I
>wasn't responding to that statement, or to your reply--I was pointing
>out that deniers, like you, often engage in name calling.

>Any questions?

	Yes.

	Are you enough of an idiot to believe in witches?  

	What a holohugger.   

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 15:08:45 PDT 1996
Article: 61543 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Gassed again and again
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:59:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <5092dm$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl16-23.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 31  4:59:18 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82


Another former inmate [of Belsen], Moshe Peer, recalled a miraculous
escape from death as an eleven-year-old in the camp. In a 1993
interview with a Canadian newspaper, the French-born Peer claimed that
he "was sent to the [Belsen] camp gas chamber at least six times." The
newspaper account went on to relate: "Each time he survived, watching
with horror as many of the women and children gassed with him
collapsed and died. To this day, Peer doesn't know how he was able to
survive." In an effort to explain the miracle, Peer mused: "Maybe
children resist better,
I don't know." (Although Peer claimed that "Bergen-Belsen was worse
than Auschwitz," he acknowledged that he and his younger brother and
sister, who were deported to the camp in 1944, all somehow survived
internment there.) 

	"He's a Nazi!"

	"How do you know?"

	"He gassed me!"

	"Is that all?"

	"He gassed me again and again and again and again and again!"

	"He gassed you six times?"

	"I got better."

---

	If the Monty Python troupe had only come across this one.  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 22:02:41 PDT 1996
Article: 61578 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!netnews.com!news.dx.net!coopnews.coop.net!world!uunet!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The evening mailbomb from gryn.org
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 07:32:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <4vrjrn$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <11d_9608221018@tor250.org> <4vk06r$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>  <4vltua$2r0@news1.io.org> <4vpf56$bep@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-12.ix.netcom.com
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On 25 Aug 96 11:46:21, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Re: The evening mailbomb from gryn.org] [Sunday August 25 1996
>07:59][*][0]*>

> >> Actually, it's a libelous statement.

> MG>   Actually you publically stated in this newsgroup that you were
> MG> into wetwork for the Jewish intelligence agency and wetwork is
> MG> murder.

> MG>   Or would you have it called something else?

>Yes - a delusion on the part of a mentally sick individual who has
>run into a situation where he loses continuously, so he attacks with
>distortions and lies.

>++GMAIL 1.3++ We keep on laughing at you Matt.
>--
>|Fidonet:  Alec Grynspan 1:2424/13
>|Internet: alec@gryn.org

	Wetwork is murder and that is what you told me on the phone and you
said you did on behalf of the Mossad.  

	Were you lying then or are you lying now?   



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 22:02:42 PDT 1996
Article: 61586 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: real showerheads
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 11:16:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <5096te$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <506aar$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <981_9608301612@tor250.org>
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On 30 Aug 96 15:17:38, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[real showerheads] [Friday August 30 1996 04:56][*][0]*>

> MG> intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control inflow and
> MG> outtake of gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide
> MG> powder was used to generate the lethal smoke. From the gas
> MG> chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory."

>A good description by a non-chemist of Zyklon-B.

>So?

>You're spamming again, I see.

>++GMAIL 1.3++ I know that you're trying. Very trying.
>--
>|Fidonet:  Alec Grynspan 1:2424/13
>|Internet: alec@gryn.org

	All you are showing is that you are ignorant of chemisty to make that
claim.  What do push button controls have to do with chemistry?  What
pressure regulation is there?  What smoke is there?  What intake and
outtake was there to control?  

	You need to learn much more before your juvenile tactics are corrected
and you are prepared to participate here fully.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Sep  2 20:59:40 PDT 1996
Article: 61789 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Required Amount Of Zyklon
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:34:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <506g1v$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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On Thu, 29 Aug 1996 21:28:13 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <5042vo$ff2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>         You ain't shit more than a Jewish murderer for a Jewish organization.
>> 
>>         That is all we ever exepected from a Jew.  

> 
>Hmm.
> 
>The word is "expected," Mr. Giwer, not "exepected."
> 
>And the above two sentences are absolute and definitive proof that you are
>an anti-Semite, Mr. Giwer, through and through.
> 
>Not to mention an illiterate moron.

	And it also shows that Alec Grynspan is a murderer for a Jewish
intelligence organization as he told me on the phone and has discussed
here.  

	More than that, he has said here that ke killed Americans.  

	But then, you know that.  

	So why would you defend an admitted murderer?  
	

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Sep  2 23:38:42 PDT 1996
Article: 61803 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A minor question
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 00:05:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <50fsoc$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Sep 02  7:05:32 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	Why is that didn't discover anything peculiar about Auschwitz until
after the end of the war?  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 61822 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No "induction" holes here - kr2a.jpg (0/1)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 02:59:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <50g6vb$bkh@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Sep 02  7:59:55 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

	Since this has been rerun week of the oldies-but-goodies of the
holohuggery, this one needs to be seen again.  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:00 PDT 1996
Article: 61834 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:58:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <50ghd9$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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On 1 Sep 1996 16:52:17 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: On 31 Aug 1996 23:53:20 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>: anderson) wrote:

>: >Actually, Matt, the statement you responded to was that the person
>: >in question believed in witches--not the devil.  Nevertheless, I
>: >wasn't responding to that statement, or to your reply--I was pointing
>: >out that deniers, like you, often engage in name calling.
>: 
>: >Any questions?
>: 
>: 	Yes.
>: 
>: 	Are you enough of an idiot to believe in witches?  

>Well, yeah--I believe in witches, 

	Then you are an idiot.

if by that you mean people who
>practice the Wiccan religion.  If you mean people with magical
>powers who fly about on broomsticks and cause ye crops to wither
>in ye fields, of course I don't.  

	You believe in burning bodies without fuel and people who were gassed
six times and lived to tell about it.  There is no way to
pre-establish the limits of your credulity.  

>Next question:  what does this have to  do with the assertion, made
>here by you, Moran and Stele, that deniers never, ever call names?

	My assertion was that I (only referring to myself) did not START the
name calling.  In this particular case, anyone believing in witches is
accurately described as an idiot.  It is no more name calling than
describing a vegan as an idiot.  

>How do you justify this assertion in light of the fact that, just in 
>the last month, you've used invective ranging from "idiot" to "asshole"
>to "holohugger" to "fatbroad" and on to "Jewboy"?

	As above, I only stated that I did not start it.  The first insults in
the exchange when I started here again last year were my being called
the blood libels of neo-nazi and antisemite.  Those are the most vile
insults in modern American society.  
	
	And as such there is no name I can call or any aspersion I can cast
that comes even close to those names not makes up for the blood libel
of the holohuggers who started the name calling.  

	But you know that.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:01 PDT 1996
Article: 61835 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:14:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <50glso$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 09:46:24 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <50ahfp$n9@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>zenoink@ix.netcom.com(Zenoink) wrote:

>> Sara:
>> 
>> I don't think you can wiggle out of this dilemma quite so easily.  
> 
>I don't see a dilemma here, Kay, so I'm certainly not trying to wiggle out
>of anything.
>> 
>> What makes the Lauck case different is that he is being punished for a
>> crime of thought and speech. 
> 
>No difference at all. Lauck broke the LAWS of two foreign countries. He
>bragged about doing so. 
>> 
>> Drugs and drug dealing are illegal in the US, but free speech is not.  
> 
>What is legal or illegal in the UNITED STATES is NOT the question. He was
>not tried in the United States. He was tried in GERMANY, whose laws he DID
>knowingly break.
>> 
>> While US policy may indeed be to leave the tourists and the expatriates
>> to the mercy of local laws, this does not mean we can simply shrug our
>> shoulders over the nature of those laws.

>Fine. That makes sense. If you're opposed to it, DO something about it.
>But don't blame the Germans or Danish for exerting THEIR RIGHTS to try and
>sentence someone who breaks their laws.

	A minor problem is the laws against speech and the press are a cause
for revolution.  Should Germans ever have the balls for it, I will do
what I can to get them the guns.  

	It is a very dangerous thing the German government is doing






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:02 PDT 1996
Article: 61837 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:05:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <50glcn$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:84471 alt.revisionism:61837

On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:08:04 +0000, Laurinda Stryker
 wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
>> 
>>         In the US we are down to about a half million people tops, in any form
>> who give any kind of a damn about any holocaust whatsoever.  In 20
>> more years their leaders will be dead and forgotten and so will the
>> movement.
>> 
>>         The 50 year memorials of the events of WW II were held in 1944 and
>> 1945 are over.  To any rational person, so is any holocaust.  Consider
>> that even Clinton showing up at a VFW meeting talks about Vietnam even
>> though the "leaders" are greyheads from WW II.  (If Billie Jeff shows
>> up at one, email me if he exits alive.)
>> 
>>         It is an ethnic obsession and of no interest to any other person.

>So why have millions of people - the majority of whom are _not_ Jews - 
>visited the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum?

	I was unaware that the religion/ethnic group of the tourists was taken
down at the door.  So first you are uphill in your claim.  

	On the other hand, it is touted, a matter of curiosity.  A proper
survey would be post vacation and ask people to rate everything they
visited and see where it stands in their rating, or simply ask if they
would pay to see it again. 

	So what has been the total visitor count over how many years?  How
does it compare to the Washington Monument or the Museum of Natural
History or the Capitol?  

	More clearly, upon what basis do you think your question has any
implicite meaning?  After all, even Plan Nine from Outer Space has had
millions of viewers.  And then there are things like ID4 with no
intrinsic merit of any kind that are hits.  

>And why are university programmes in Holocaust education expanding - 
>not only in the U.S., but abroad?

	The same reason equally worthless feminist studies are increasing,
they are politically correct and people will pay real money for them.
There is no academic value in it any more than any other minute aspect
to WW II.  

>And why are increasing numbers of books on the Holocaust being 
>published?  And increasing numbers of doctoral theses being written?

	See the sig.

>Doesn't look much like a decline in interest to me....

	The more they say about it the worse it gets for them.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:03 PDT 1996
Article: 61838 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Beaulieu break the 1 Meg psychological bareer
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:07:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <50glfr$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:50:05 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:

>>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
>>
>>>I havn't yet receive any response to my question about the strange
>>>way Nizkor keep track of people's posts here, but for a while, I was 
>>>looking at my name in the people directory: it happened! I broke the
>>>1 Meg bareer recently I joined A. Baron, Tom Moran, M. Giwer and a couple
>>>of others in the millionaire club (while Matt may have join it after a month).
>>>Perhaps one could say I'm a bit emotive (or nut), but this is an important
>>>moment in my life, perhaps as much as when I swam a 100 meters below 1 minute 
>>>15 seconds.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Some of my stuff is archived. Most of us who contend with deniers do
>>not post a lot of drivel. I'm glad you are proud that you have posted
>>enough drivel to be in a league wit te above names dribblers. You
>>ought to be proud!

>	I guess this person thinks all he has to do is denounce something
>as "drivel" and the readers should fall in behind him. Some sales job.
>He says he has a product. He says it's great. Does he show it? No.

	It is difficult to imagine a lurker dumb enough to do more than hit
the N key on this clown.  




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:04 PDT 1996
Article: 61839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kan Kleim Klean up his act?
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:33:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <50gn0o$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:33:52 GMT, goat@anus.com (CHRIST SODOMIZER)
wrote:

>schwartz@infinet.com took a fat hit off a pipe and wrote:

>>When did we become net_fascists? Please explain, and provide evidence of
>>this bizarre assertion.

>Those who keep lists of people they disagree with, and actively seek
>to categorize and prosecute a level of traffic on the net for content
>grounds only, count as notorious fascists in the freemind camp.
>Sorry, but your organization has no progressive function and only
>seeks to further the concept of victimization that insures its own
>political power.

	We live in a victim world.  Victims are like children who need to be
taken care of, who can not take care of themselves.  Of course the
grown up victims are like spoiled children who throw an tantrum when
they are not catered to.  

	We see it all the time here from the second and third and even fourth
hand victims here.  

	"You won't do what I say, you Nazi."  

	"You hate me."  (perhaps the most obvious)

	"You won't give me what I want."  

	"It's mine, it's mine, it's mine."  

	"You won't believe me!"  (second most obvious)

	Anyone who has seen the stereotype of the spoiled child can see it in
the holohuggers.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:04 PDT 1996
Article: 61840 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gas-tight doors
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 06:13:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <50gi9f$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <500pqb$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>  <506cff$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Sep 02 11:13:03 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:15:47 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Why does only one of the underground morgues have a gas-tight
>## door? If both were shelters, both would have them, right?
> 
># What is this both you are talking about?  Trying to sneak 
># something new in back the back door again?  

>Good old Giwer, still crazy after all these years.

>Matty my boy, nobody but you - "revisionist" or "non-revisionist" - 
>has any doubt that each of Kremas II and III had two large
>underground cellars. Nobody. 

>They are mentioned in the plans.

>They are clearly visible today.

>Give it up. Enough is enough.

	Then why did your "calculation" use the size of the entire structure
rather than just of the room?  Why did you agree with my calculation
which used the total size of the structure?  

	It is amazing how far you holohuggers will go in swearing to one thing
and then changing the facts to support a different story.  

	BTW:  There were five rooms.  

	BTW2:  I only started that
spreadsheet-which-is-really-not-a-wordprocessr after you gave the
approximate dimensions of the entire building and proceeded to use
them for the one and only calculation ever presented by an indentified
non-CS major.  

	Yes, enough is quite enough.  And do not forget, the layout is on
Nizkor (the Holocaust's Attic) and if you want to insist upon your
dimensions as the size of the room then the size of the entire
structure can be determined.  You will be amazed at how huge it is.
It will rival several modern structures as the largest ever by that
construction technique.

	What to go for broke?  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:05 PDT 1996
Article: 61841 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #5
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:35:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <50gn40$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 12:35:28 AM PDT 1996
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RUDOLF HESS 

	According to the report of Robert H. Jackson, (quoted by Judge Bert A.
Röling of the Tokyo Tribunal, writing in A Treatise on International
Criminal Law, vol. 1., pp. 590-608, edited by M. Cherif Bassiouni and
Ved. F. Nanda, Chas Thomas Publisher), the British, French, and
Soviets at Nuremberg did not wish to charge the Germans with
"aggressive war" at all, for obvious reasons. This accusation was
invented by the Americans forthe sole, express, and admitted purpose
of justifying American violations of international law. 

	These violations of international law would include the Lend Lease
Program; convoying and repairing British wartime ships for two years
prior to Pearl Harbor; allowing British ships to disguise themselves
as American while the U.S. was officially neutral; the illegal
declaration of a 300 mile limit; the occupation of Iceland; reporting
the movements of German and Italian submarines; bombing and ramming
attacks against German and Italian submarines beginning as early as
July of 1941, and other actions obviously indicative of "aggressive
war". 

	Thus Hess was imprisoned for 47 years not only for actions which were
not illegal (attempting to stop the war, save millions of lives and
prevent the destruction of Europe and the British Empire), but for
"crimes" which were invented to cover the crimes of his accusers. 

	It was not alleged at Nuremberg that Germany had committed
"aggression" against Britain or France; the question of whether
Britain and France had, therefore, committed "aggression" against
Germany was left unanswered (IX 473 <<525>>; XVII 580 <<629>>). 

	Hess was accused of plotting with Hitler to take Britain out of the
war so that Hitler could attack Russia. His defense was that his
action was dictated by sincerity; that he knew nothing of any attack
on Russia. 

	Hess's defense summation appears at XIX 353-396 <<390-437>>. From his
final (and only) statement (XXII 368-373 <<420-425>>) Hess appears to
have been a man who could be totally insane one moment, and
brilliantly lucid, sane and logical a moment later. It is possible
that this condition was acquired in Britain. 

	[Photograph captioned, "The wreckage of the plane that Rudolf Hess
flew to Britain in an attempt to stop the war, leading to his
conviction for crimes against peace."]


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:06 PDT 1996
Article: 61843 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news.mathworks.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german,alt.online-service.compuserve
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:16:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <50gm0j$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References:   <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com>  <50agrb$17s@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>  
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:98402 alt.revisionism:61843 alt.politics.white-power:41765 soc.culture.europe:47473 soc.culture.german:84835 alt.online-service.compuserve:7436

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:42:18 GMT, qut@netcom.com (Dave Harman OBC)
wrote:

>Unjust laws deserve to be broken, no ifs ands and buts.  Germany's 
>internet access should be shut down for violating American law.

>International warrants should be issued for the leaders of the German, 
>Singaporean and UK governments for violating the law of the USA.  Equality!

	Unjust laws are grounds for armed revolution.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:06 PDT 1996
Article: 61844 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Ingratitude Towards Nazi Humaneness
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:38:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <50gg8i$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <500dpi$ojs@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <322489a2.7442483@news.spry.com> <506bdj$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> 
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On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:26:10 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
> 
>[About the euthanasia gas chambers]

	About the rooms with the supposed fake showerheads whatever evil
purpose has been given to them by holohuggery.  
 
># And of course these rooms have never been discovered.  Nor have any
># blueprints for them.
> 
>How do you know?

	They have not been.  Care to post them?  A URL even?  Stop trying to
fake it.  You are not good at it.  
 
># Anyone with the slightest idea of the volume of compressed
># gas knows this is a ridiculous assertion.  
 
>More "scientific" rubbish from Matt Giwer, the same person who
>claimed HCN will not evaporate from Zyklon at 20 degrees...

	How would you know if it could or not?  The only thing for certain is
that you, as a holohugger, will lie about what I said if it suits your
purposes.  
 
>What the hell are you babbling about?

	It is difficult to get through to a proclaimed PhD in CS who thinks
spreadsheets have to do with word processing.  You are a clear fraud.

 
>You put the people in the chamber. You release the CO into
>it. The people die. What is so difficult to understand?
> 
>Are you claiming it would have been impossible to get enough into
>a container to kill the people? Do you know how many parts-per-
>million of CO will kill a person? And if they needed two
>containers, so what?

	As I said, you have to know something about the subject first.  As I
have no idea what education you might have it is difficult to know
where to start explaining it to you.  But then, you would condemn it
no matter how true it is to the applause of your fellow holohuggers,
who are just as willing to lie as you are.  
 
># And of course there is no public record of the "public clamor" that
># that is what we have come to expect from these stories.  
> 
>Another outright lie. Many letters of protest against the euthanasia
>murders were sent; some are posted here regularly.
> 
>You're a useless liar. No, wait, you're not useless. You do serve
>a cause. But not the one you think you serve.
 
	 I see. You are saying that when the program was described by
holohuggers a few months ago as secret they holohuggers were lying.  

	You have merely given one more example of how things were secret and
not secret depending upon the needs of the particular story.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:08 PDT 1996
Article: 61845 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: No "induction" holes here - kr2a.jpg (1/1)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 02:59:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 1278
Message-ID: <50g70h$bkh@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Sep 02  8:00:33 PM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

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`
end


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:09 PDT 1996
Article: 61846 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Flaming Kremas
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:49:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:30:08 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>Before starting to respond to this one, let's make one
>point clear. Mike Stein, not long ago, had a long conversation
>with a crematory operator. The fellow said that flames can
>definitely come out of a crematorium chimney; the phenomena
>even has a name: "a candle".
> 
>I guess you have missed that, Giwer? All this free time,
>and yet you miss so much.

	I have never failed to notice that holohuggers are willing to lie to
promote their favorite huggery.  

	But I did read that one.  What he left out was the damage done to the
chimney but that is neither surprising nor unexpected.  Nor is that
fact I have have driven passed a particular crematorium hundreds of
times at all times of the day and night and have never seen such a
thing.  

	And of course I realize that you have never in your young life even
been near a working crematorium and therefore would never know.

	And in addition, we have the admission of those who have described
those flames that they were lying, made it all up.

	So just what is it you are trying to defend here but a known and
admitted lie about flames?  Why don't you defend the color of smoke
depending upon whether the Jews were fat or skinny while you are at
it?  

	Do you really think anyone is persuaded by this stupitidy any longer?

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:10 PDT 1996
Article: 61848 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The seventh, eighth, and ninth confessions of Kurt Gerstein
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:52:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 1 Sep 1996 09:55:04 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <5090ij$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Gerstein confesses
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:52:54 GMT
>>
>>
>>	again and again and again 
>>
>>4/26/45: 
>>     The date SS officer Kurt Gerstein's first two (of at least six)
>>"confessions."

>[snip]

>    Then of course we have the confession to the Swedish diplomat, and to
>two friends of his - during the war, before any of the confessions that

	I was unaware the Swedish government was involved in anything worthy
of a confession.  What crime did they confess to?  Please  be specific
in your answer.

>Mr. Giwer is apparently trying to suggest are fishy simply because there
>are multiple versions.

	Rather that they are different and mutually exclusive.  Other than
that, only a holohugger could not find a problem with that.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:11 PDT 1996
Article: 61849 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The 6 confessions of Kurt Gerstein
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:54:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 1 Sep 1996 14:05:50 -0400, karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L.
Power) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>>	I know it is impolite to bring this up.  But what the hell.  It is a
>>holiday weekend.  Give you holohuggers something to come back to.  

>What's to come back to? That Kurt Gerstein may have known more than
>one language? Or that there may exist various translations of his
>words by other hands? That he, or others taking down his words or
>transcribing written records, may have used a typewriter? What is it
>about all this which strikes you as unbelievable, Matt?

>Did you ever get off your fat ass and look up Gerstein at you local
>library rather than depending on lying nazi-wannabe web pages for your
>"research"?

	I was, as you know and would prefer to cover up this this crap, that
they are all different and mutually exclusive.  

	I can see why you want to cover that up in your usual attempt at
diversion.

	If you do not know that is true, look it up.  Do some research for a
change.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:11 PDT 1996
Article: 61852 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #12
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:50:33 GMT
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========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A question for revisionists re: defenses at N'burg
From: ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
Date: 26 Jun 1996 20:08:02 -0400

In article <4qsd4a$30k@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sf924@aol.com (SF924)
writes:

>
>I am a lawyer and I have a question for revisionists that I have not seen
>answered satisfactorily.  This is my first post to this group so please
>excuse me if my comments seem elementary or I misspell names.
>
>  At the Nuremburg Trial, 23 (I believe that was the number) high ranking
>Nazi officials were tried including Frank (the head of the general
>government in Poland), Kaltenbrunner, Seyss Inquart ansd Salcal (sic) 
>Frank was also alleged to have participated in the Wannsee Conference of
>January, 1942 and the "alleged" exterminations were to take place on
>territory within his jurisdiction. .
>
>All of these men were represented by counsel.  How come none of them, not
>even Goring the most defiant of the defendants, alleged that the gas
>chambers were a hoax or concoction of the allies in conjunction with
>Jewish interests.  None of these men raised this as a defense.  As I
>understand it, the defense of all the defendants was either lack of
>knowledge or fear of disobeying orders.
>
>As a lawyer, if my client was Frank, and I knew the gas chambers were a
>hoax, that fact of that hoax would have been my lead defense.  I would
>have aggressively attacked all of the physical evidence as a forgery.  I
>would have argued that Zyklon B couldn't kill anyone.  I would have
>challenged the photographs.  I would have grilled Rudolph Hoess, the
>Auscwitz commandant on cross examination.    In short, I would have
argued
>that "It is a hoax!!  There were no gas chambers!!"  After all, my client
>would have been on trial for his life.  
>
>It is extremely telling that this defense was never raised.
>
>As a lawyer, I find it surprising that these principal defendants, on
>trial for their lives,  with the most intimate knowledge of the facts and
>within one year or two of the alleged incidents, never even alleged the
>existence of this hoax. Not a single one of them.  
>
>

This is an excellent post and you raise an excellent question.  The
fact
of the matter is that the defendants generally believed the stories.
(Ref.
GM Gilbert, *Nuremberg Diary*

The introduction of extermination evidence came in several phases.
First,
there was the showing of the atrocity film,  11/29/45. (p. 45)  The
defendants were shocked, outraged, and claimed no knowledge.  On
12/14/45,
there was testimony and documents -- including the Stroop Report -- on
extermination in Poland.  Again, there was generally no questioning of
the
truth of this evidence (which included the *steaming* to death
evidence.)
(p. 69f)  In January, there was evidence of mass shootings.  No one
questioned it then, and no one does now.  When the Russians presented
their case, 2/8/46, there was a change in mood. Namely, skepticism.
(p.
135ff)

At one point, Gilbert, conversing with Goering said, *You can't shrug
off
6 million murders!* -- To which Goering responded, *Well, I doubt if
it
was 6 million, but as I have always said, it is sufficient if only 5
per
cent of it is true ...* 

The reaction to the _Soviet_ atrocity film was markedly different. 
Goering, for one, considered it phony, with the parts of the corpses
probably played by German soldiers. (p. 162.)

February 27 and 28 gave the balance of Soviet testimony, namely, on
Auschwitz and Treblinka.  (p. 174ff)  There is a revealing episode
here. 
During a break, Dr. Kranzbuhler, Doenitz' attorney, asked him, *Didn't
_anybody_ know _anything_ about _any_ of these things?* 
Doentiz
shook his head and shrugged sadly.  Goering turned around, *Of course
not
....*

On April 15 there was a climax of sorts when Rudolf Hoess testified.
(p.
264ff) There was initial disbelief, but no one seems to have thought
that
he might not be telling the truth.  Of course, at that time, Hoess
testified to the gassing of 2.5 million.

To sum up, the defendants generally believed the testimony.  But there
was
no point in cross examining because no one at Nuremberg was convicted
on
the basis of atrocity stories alone.  No one hanged because of
Auschwitz. 
As a matter of fact, Hoess was only at Nuremberg to testify in
Kaltenbrunner's defense.  Bad move.

The defendants were shown the same film of inmates dead of disease and
malnutrition, and then accepted the rest without question.  As have
most
of us, most of the time.  Because, in the final analysis, Goering was
right.  Even if only 5% were true....

As Bradley F. Smith points out, *Reaching Judgment at Nuremberg*, the
German lawyers seemed content on focussing on rebutting the accusation
of
the Katyn Forest massacre. (p. 107)

One final point.  The defendants in all of these trials were out to
save
their lives. They were subject to a number of discovery restrictions
which
would not apply in a normal case.  They could cross examine witnesses,
but
they could not dispute every affidavit.





=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:12 PDT 1996
Article: 61856 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steamed alive or Are Lobsters Kosher?
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:40:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 14:36:24 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 04:11:22 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>wrote:

>>========
>>Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>>Subject: Not close inded!  Keren bullshits again
>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:43:39 GMT
>>
>>	Hey, Keren!  Where is your story about the Polish "spies" not getting
>>close this time?  

>(Polish Government charges snipped)

>Well, well, the vaunted 163 IQ now now asks a question that for 163 IQ
>should be obvious to it. I wonder if the 163 IQ is on a deliberate
>path of brain cell reduction through the use of alcohol?? 


>I laugh at this fraud. 

	Then tell Nizkor to stop carrying it, fool.  

>       

>               The Nizkor Project: 
>    Fighting hate and anti-Semitism on the Internet
>                      |       
>      Honoring the memory of Pooh.bah         
>                  |                
>  Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
>  Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
>  European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
>  Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/

	The unorganized, dust covered attic of the Holocaust.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:13 PDT 1996
Article: 61857 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ecologically minded SS
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:42:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:39:00 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>[From Morgen's testimony]

># ... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas 
># was let into the room. As soon as death had set in, the
># ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, 
># the doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. 
># By means of a special procedure... they were burned in the open
>                                 ^^^
># air without the use of fuel."

>Aha, that sneaky little devil. Once again, note how he carefully
>edited out the part in which Morgen states that the procedure was
>introduced by Wirth; therefore, he most probably was talking
>about burning the corpses using large amounts of wood, which
>was the method introduced in the camps of which Wirth was
>in charge.

>A smart little devil, that Giwer. Not smart enough to find a
>job, though...

	I forgot that holohuggers are so stupid as to believe that wood is not
fuel.  But then I have great difficultly keeping in mind the stupidity
of the holohuggers.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:14 PDT 1996
Article: 61858 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:48:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com>  <502sor$8lf@Vir.com> <505mrj$uii@Vir.com>  <199608311622.MAA29091@vixa.voyager.net> <3229C0C8.9C7@kaiwan.com> 
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:34:33 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>Jamie McCarthy wrote:

>> And don't forget -- according to Greg Raven, this speech doesn't count
>> as evidence for the Holocaust, because Himmler doesn't say anything
>> about gas chambers!

>ihrgreg@kaiwan.com wrote:

>> I don't deny there was a Holocaust,

>Nonsense.  You define the Holocaust as the murder of six million Jews as
>a central act of state by the Nazis during the Second World War, many in
>gas chambers.  You deny the figure of six million, you deny that there
>was a Nazi program, and you deny that there were any gas chambers.

	5.2 million even by the most huggery of the holos.  

>You deny precisely what you define.  You deny the Holocaust.

	Have you found any physical evidence for it yet?  The world is
waiting.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:15 PDT 1996
Article: 61860 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Again in the Forest
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:34:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 1 Sep 1996 08:58:46 -0700, nizkor@nizkor.org (Nizkor Canada) wrote:

>Archive/File: holocaust/poland wlodawa.014
>Last-modified: 1993/04/22

>              The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
>                   Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski
>                Transcribed by kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca

>        [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments]

>                          AGAIN IN THE FOREST
>                           Eisik Rothenberg

>When we were deep in the forest three gazelles jumped in front of us
>"this is a good sign" I said "We will succeed" and we rushed on.

	Gazelles, a herd of which were imported by the Afrika Corp. 

	Perhaps they were really unicorns in disguise.  

	Only a holohugger is gullible enough ... 

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:15 PDT 1996
Article: 61863 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Interpretation of the incomprehensible
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:36:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 15:14:45 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>		
>	L.A.Times 8/31/96

>	"New Translation of Jewish Holy Book Wins Wide Praise"

>	Worship: Rabbis'
>reinterpretation of ancient
>Hebrew text makes the 
>haftarah text more meaningful
>to the average person,
>religious leaders say.

>	Until now, there has never been a modern English translation and
>commentary of the haftarah, the book of prophets that helps form the
>core of the Jewish identity.
>	Based on nearly 3,000 year old teachings, and written 2,200 years
>ago after the Syrians banned the Jewish Bible, or Torah, the haftarah
>is read at weekly Sabbath services and forms the core of the bar and
>bat mitzvah ceremonies celebrating Jewish youths' initiation to
>adulthood.
>	But the haftarah has remained incomprehensible to most American
>Jews. "The average Jew who goes to synagogue today to hear someone
>read the haftarah is totally at a loss," said Rabbi W. Gunther Plaut
>of Holy Blossom Temple in Toronto. "The text is not understandable, so
>they listen to their neighbor talking".
>	To remedy that, Plaut and New York Rabbi Chaim Stern have
>collaborated on a newly released modern translation of the holy book,
>'Haftarah Commentary'".

>	So it appears that the "core of the Jewish identity" has been
>based on something that has been " incomprehensible", "not
>understandable" and has put any listeners "totally at a loss" as to
>what is being read.

>	Whatever this ancient material has, which was written back when
>the world was thought to be flat, we can see that the single lone
>rabbi will be able to have liberal latitude with any
>"reinterpretation".
>	
>	The article mentions that the new 928 page reinterpretation
>illustrates the haftarah "85 prophetic writings with references to a
>variety of historic figures and academic disciplines, from William
>Shakespeare to Jonathan Swift to modern archeology".

>	Perhaps the reinterpretation will have implications that these
>figures were Jewish or were inspired by Jewish writings, as has been
>the case with other claims from the Jewish community.

>	Maybe this is the material that inspired Lewis Carroll to write
>of the White Rabbit that talks backwards and Jabberwocky.
>	  
>	Maybe this is the primordial source from which "chutzpa"
>originated.

	Superstitious twits.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:16 PDT 1996
Article: 61864 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:56:56 GMT
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:23:48 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>						
>	For those of you are new to alt.revisionism, check out any post
>by McVay.
>	McVay is the Web-master of Nizkor, the "The Holocaust Educational
>Resource".
>	Aside from his postings from his archives, he never can engage in
>any argument from his own thinking, and more so than that, he expends
>most of his energy in engaging in little "spam" tit for tats with
>others. Check it out. See if you can make any sense out of his little
>posts. 

	And he starts mailbombs and then accuses others of resonding to them.
He has no integrity besides working for DOD.

	And for those who have claimed there is no connection, his latest
posts have been from 

	oneb.nizkor.bc.ca

	Gee, there is no connection wtih DOD and yet his address is now the
milnet address.  How did that happen?  

	Now who were those LIARS who were claiming it was someone else?  a
different kmcvay?  

	And who was that Ken McVay who claimed there was no connection but now
uses that address?  

	And now that the connection between McVay (McVeigh?) and DOD is out in
the open, just what other connections are there?  Yes, DOD and CIA are
so close that they exchange senior personal regularly.  

	But then of course maybe McVay is an -ility puke.  But then how can an
-illity puke use a milnet address for personal use without being in
violation of the Federal Acquisition Regulations?  Answer:  He can
not.  It is clearly improper in the form of misappropriation of funds
unless of course DOD has permitted this personal use.  

	And if they have, why?  

	DOD has no known interest in supporting anyone's personal views of
anything in history.  DOD has no known interest in the holocaust.  

	Yet now oneb (1B Systems) is the carrier of Nizkor.  

	Looks like I/LindaT was right from the beginning.  

	And just look at the co-websters putting their personal net worth on
the line for a DOD front operation.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:17 PDT 1996
Article: 61868 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 06:51:42 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:84481 alt.revisionism:61868

On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 12:11:47 -0800, kate@accessone.com (Kathleen
Mulhern) wrote:

>In article <5094j6$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>*Yes, I laugh at the lying fool that claims hew was gasse six times and
>*lived just like I laugh at you and all the other fools who believe
>*such stories.  

>How do you know he was lying?  Were you there?  How do you know I believe
>such stories?  I've never heard it before.  I have been supplied with no
>documentation, no cites, no proof.  Just your word, which means nothing to
>me.

	As the holohuggers would say, let me gas you just once and see what
happens.  And then they would laugh at you for not believing their
wild fantasies.  So let me offer to gas you six times and see if you
are still alive to tell about it.  

	As for my source, it is on Nizkor, so it must be true.  Go look for
it.  It will keep you occupied.  

	And BTW, you mean nothing to me either.  

>*Yes, I laugh at gullible fools like you.  You are very, very
>*uneducated or simply very, very stupid.  Your choice.  

>Give me your educational beackground.  Show me your PhD in history.  Tell
>me about the places you've studied and with whom you've studied. 

	My education and work experience have been posted many times.  Look it
up.  

>It's not gullibility... it's called research and discovering fact upon
>fact, eyewitness testimony upon eyewitness testimony (from nazis and
>Survivors), carefully documented proof upon carefully documented proof. 
>Hitler would be very upset to know you're denying what he took such pains
>to document for all the world to see.  

	IF you are telling the truth about your PhD THEN you know that
eyewitness testimony does not constitute history.  If you think it
does then you hold all sorts of fabulous things in fact are historic
truth.  

	And if you had applied your talents to the holocaust you would know
there there at most three (3) out of tens of thousands of documents
that may, if you know the conclusion you want to find, refer to
gassing.  

	You either know nothing about history or nothing about the gassing
documentation.  You can not have it both ways.  

>You're a hypocrite, a liar and an insult to the human race.  If your
>"insults" were meant to offend me, they merely offered me a well-needed
>chuckle.  Now shoo.

	If you know anything about the holocaust supporting information then
you know there is no physical evidence of mass extermination of Jews
or anyone else.  

	Nothing you can do but invent evidence like a holohugger can change
that.  

>* OK, you are very, very stupid.  
> 
>O.K.... you are 12 years old.

	Obvious a 12 year old knows more than your PhD.  Diploma mill?  Or
like Keren, a fraud?  

>* I have read such stories as have you.  And because you have read such
>*stories you in fact believe in ritual, satanic child abuse and the
>*appearance of the Satan himself at the ceremonies. 

>I do?  And please tell me... how on earth did you come to that conclusion?

	Because you believe eyewitnesses in the absense of physical evidence.
You can not pick and choose without a priori criteria for the
selection.  So what makes gassing witnesses who report the impossible
more credible than ritual, satanic child abuse witnesses who report
the impossible?  

>It is not the reading of such stories that has convinced me of the reality
>of improved memory over time.  It is the studying of cases, the
>converstaions with experts, the examination of personal testimony that has
>lead me to the conclusion that as an individual becomes more and more
>removed from a situation, that individual's memory improves as the trauma
>can be better handled.  It's a fact.  Perhaps actually obtaining an
>education on your part would help you with your little lying problem.

	You have been talking with charlatans not experts.  You would do well
to consult other than self-serving liars.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:17 PDT 1996
Article: 61869 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #7
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:37:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 12:37:09 AM PDT 1996
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JAPANESE WAR CRIMES TRIALS 

	While Germans were being convicted of making human "soap" (taken
seriously in the seventh edition of Oppenheim and Lauterpacht's
prestigious International Law, vol. II, p. 450) Japanese defendants
were being convicted of making human "soup" in repeated trials. 

	This is not a misprint; it was considered a "proven fact" in 1948 - a
"fact" proven in numerous "trials" - that the Japanese are a race of
habitual cannibals who were forbidden upon pain of death from
devouring the corpses of their own dead, but who were officially
encouraged to eat Americans. Americans were served fried, or as soup;
people were eaten when other food was available. Thus, the Japanese
engage in cannibalism out of choice rather than necessity. Favourite
human body parts for culinary purposes are liver, pancreas and gall
bladder; Chinese are swallowed in pill form! 

	Among the "trials" in which this was "proven" are U.S. Tachibana
Yochio and 13 others, Mariana Islands, 2nd-15th August, 1946;
Commonwealth of Australia vs. Tazaki Takehiko, Wewak, 30th November
1945; Commonwealth of Australia v. Tomiyasu Tisato, Rabaul, 2nd April
1946; and the most complex war crimes trial in history, the
International Military Tribunal for the Far East (IMTFE) personally
supervised by Douglas McArthur, which lasted from May 1946 until
December 1948 (see The Tokyo Judgment, vol. 1, pp. 409-410, University
of Amsterdam Press 1977, pp. 49,674-5 of mimeographed transcript. 

	The 25 defendants who survived trial were all convicted; 7 were
hanged. 

	Their crimes included: 

	Planning, initiation and waging "aggressive war" against the Soviet
Union (the Soviet Union attacked Japan two days after Hiroshima in
violation of a Non-Agression Pact; on this same day the London
Agreement was signed, pursuant to which the Nuremberg Trial was held);
planning, initiation, and waging "aggressive war" against France
(France is in Europe); illegal sea blockade and indiscriminate
population bombing (case against Shimada), that is, the actions of the
British in Europe would have been illegal if committed by the
Japanese; trial of war criminals before a military tribunal (case
against Hata and Tojo; see also U.S. vs. Sawada, probably the most
disgusting and hypocritical accusation of all; the victims were 7
Americans guilty of participating in the fire-bombing of Tokyo in
which 80,000 women and children were burned to death) and cannibalism.
It was not alleged that the defendants ate anyone personally. 

	The evidence included:

* Soviet War Crimes Reports * Chinese War Crimes Reports * Soviet
reports based on Japanese documents not attached to the reports *
Summaries of Japanese military aggression in China (written by the
Chinese) * 317 Judge Advocate General War Crimes Reports (total
length: 14,618 pages) "quoting" "captured" Japanese documents,
diaries, cannibalism confessions, mass murder orders, orders to gas
P.O.W.s on remote South Sea islands, etc. ("captured documents" not
attached to reports; proof of authenticity not required) * affidavits
of Japanese soldiers imprisoned in Siberia * affidavits of Japanese
referring to Japs as the 'enemy' * affidavits of Red Army Officers *
newspaper clippings (admissable evidence for the prosecution, but not
usually for the defense; i.e., events in China were proven by quoting
the Chicago Daily Tribune, the New Orleans Times- Picayune, the
Sacrimento Herald, Oakland Tribune, New York Herald, New York Times,
Christian Science Monitor, etc. * the "affidavit" of Marquis Takugawa
(written in English and not read to him in Japanese) * the statements
of Okawa (Okawa was declared insane and confined to a lunatic asylum,
but his statements were used in evidence) * the testimony of Tanaka (a
professional witness paid by the Americans; Okawa, when drunk, has
confessed everything to Tanaka; Tanaka 'The Monster' Ryukichi was
supposedly responsible for millions of atrocities but was not tried,
instead he moved freely about Japan) * Kido's diary (titbits of gossip
about everybody Kido didn't like) * Harada's Memoirs (Harada had
suffered a stroke, so his dictation was incomprehensible; how well he
could remember and what he meant to say were anybody's guess; the
translations were a guess; many different "copies" had been
"corrected" by a variety of people other than the person to whom he
had dictated; added to which he had a reputation for telling lies). 

	The Prosecution's Answer to Defense Arguments at the end of the trial
refutes all defensive evidence, stating that documents (translations
of excerpts "copies" without proof of issuance or signature) are the
best witnesses. If prosecution and defense both quote a document,
defense have quoted out of context, but never the prosecution. Hearsay
has probative value; testimony of defense witnesses has no probative
value; cross- examination is a waste of time. 

	Five of the 11 judges - William Webb of Australia, Delfin Jaranilla of
the Philippines, and Bert. A. Röling of the Netherlands, Henri
Bernhard of France, and R.B. Pal of India - dissented. Pal wrote a
famous 700 page dissentient opinion in which he called the prosecution
atrocity evidence "mostly worthless", remarking sarcastically that he
hoped one of the documents was in Japanese. 

	A peculiarity of war crimes trials is that far from "proving"
anything, they all contradict each other. It was held at Tokyo that
the Chinese had a "right" to violate "unfair" treaties, and that
Japanese efforts to enforce such treaties - because they were "unfair"
- constituted "aggression". 

	When the atomic bombs were dropped, Shigemitsu had been attempting to
negotiate a surrender for nearly 11 months, beginning on September 14,
1944. This of course became another "crime" - "prolonging the war
through negotiation". 

	"Proof" of Japanese cannibal activity may be found in JAG Report 317,
pp. 12,467-8 of mimeographed transcript; Exhibits 1446 and 1447, pp.
12,576-7; Exhibit 1873, pp. 14, 129-30, and Exhibits 2056 and 2056A
and B, pp. 15,032- 42. 


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:18 PDT 1996
Article: 61870 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #6
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:36:06 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 12:36:26 AM PDT 1996
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RUDOLF HÖSS 

	Rudolf Höss was the Auschwitz commandant whose "confessions" have
"proven" that Hitler gassed six million Jews (or five million, the
figure usually used at Nuremberg). His best-known "confession" is the
one quoted by William L. Shirer on pages 968-969 of The Rise and Fall
of the Third Reich. 

	This document, Document 3868-PS, should be seen in its context. The ex
parte written "statement" or affidavit (i.e., prepared in the presence
of only one of the parties) was a principal prosecutor's tool in the
witchcraft trials of the Middle Ages, only to disappear for several
centuries, then reappear in Communist show trials and war crimes
trials. 

	These documents violate many standard rules of legal procedure, such
as the rule against asking leading questions, the rule against prior
consistent statements (i.e., the multiplication of evidence by
repetition; normally, such statements are only admissible when they
contradict other statements made later), the right to confront and
cross-examine one's accuser, and the privilege against
self-incrimination. Nor would the "evidence" in war crime trials be
admissable in a court martial. Even in 1946, the introduction of
depositions by the prosecution in capital cases before a court martial
was forbidden by Article 25 of the US Articles of War. Article 38
required the use of standard Federal rules of evidence. 

	At Nuremberg, there was never the slightest pretense that Höss wrote
this document. If that had been the case, it would not state, "I
understand English as it is written above", but rather, "I have
written this statement myself". In the minor trials (Hadamar,
Natzweiler, etc.) it is common to find confessions written entirely in
the handwriting of the interrogator, in English, with a final
statement in the prisoners handwriting, in German, stating that these
are his statements and that he is satisfied with the translation into
English! 

	Another formula occurs on page 57 of the Hadamar volume of Sir David
Maxwell-Fyfe's book, War Crimes Trials, "I certify that the above has
been read to me in German, my native tongue" (in English).

The pretense was that the prisoner was interrogated through an
interpreter in question and answer form, after which the questions
were deleted, and the answers were run together in the form of an
affidavit, usually written by a different person from the interrogator
who conducted the questioning. 

	At Belsen, for example, every affidavit was written by one officer,
Major Smallwood. In this trial, a combination Auschwitz-Belsen trial,
the court- appointed British and free Polish defense team demolished
the prosecution case - including the "selections for mass gassings" -
but were overruled on the grounds that involuntary statements and oral
and written hearsay were admissable, "not to convict the innocent, but
to convict the guilty" (Law Reports of Trials of War Criminals, Vol.
II. (This thin volume must be read in its entirety.)) 

	After the affidavit was prepared by the officer who did nothing but
write affidavits, it was presented in its finished form to the
prisoner for signature. If it was not signed, it was introduced into
evidence anyway. Objections went to "weight", in the jargon of war
crimes proceedings, rather than to "admissibility". 

	An example of an unsigned affidavit by Rudolf Höss is Document NO-
4498-B. The B means that this document is a "translation" with
typewritten signature of an "original" document, Document NO-4498-A,
written in Polish, and allegedly signed by Höss. There is also a
Document NO-4498-C, in English. 

	Affidavits A and C are not attached to Affidavit B, the "true copy". 

	Document 3868-PS, quoted by Shirer, was signed in English, 3 times,
but not in the "translation" into German. The document contains a
minor change initialled by Höss, with a small "h", and an entire
sentence written entirely in the interrogator's handwriting (compare
capital "W"s) not initialled by Höss. The initial, of course, is there
to "prove" that he has "read and corrected" the document. The content
of this handwritten sentence is refuted elsewhere (XXI 529 <<584>>).

When the affidavit was presented to the prisoner, it was sometimes
corrected extensively, leading to two or more versions of the same
document. In these cases, the longer ones are "quoted", and the
shorter ones are "lost". An example of this practice is Document
948-949, the affidavit of Dr. Wilhelm Jäger (See Albert Speer.) 

	Jäger testified that he signed 3 or 4 copies of the same document, a
much shorter one. The shorter one was originally presented against the
elder Krupp, before charges against him were dropped. In this
document, the longer one, the translation into English is dated prior
to the signature date on the "original". Jäger's court appearance was
an unmitigated disaster, but that is forgotten (XV 264-283
<<291-312>>). 

	If the affiant appeared to testify, he invariably contradicted the
affidavit, but contradictions are ignored. Other affidavit signers
whose court appearances were catastrophic include General Westhoff,
who contradicted his unsworn "statement" 27 times (XI 155-189
<<176-212>>); and a "germ warfare witness", Schreiber (XXI 547-562
<<603-620>>); Paul Schmidt's affidavit (Schmidt was Hitler's
interpreter), Document 3308-PS - presented to him for signature when
he was too sick to read it carefully - was partially repudiated by him
(X 222 <<252>>), but used in evidence against Von Neurath, despite
Schmidt's repudiation (XVI 381 <<420-421>> XVII 40-41 <<49-50>>).
Ernst Sauckel signed an affidavit written prior to his arrival at
Nuremberg (XV 64-68 <<76-80>>) and signed under duress (his wife and
10 children were to be handed over to the Poles or Russians). 

	Since the affiants almost never (if ever) wrote their own
"statements", it is common to find identical or nearly identical
phrases or even entire paragraphs occurring in different documents,
even when they have been prepared on different days by supposedly
different people; for example, affidavits 3 and 5 of Blaskovitz and
Halder (Exhibits 536-US and 537-US); Documents USSR-471 and USSR-472
and 473; and Documents USSR-264 and 272 (human soap affidavits). 

	Other affidavits signed by Höss include Document NO-1210, in which the
English was written first, with extensive interpolations, additions
andcorrections, including 2 different first drafts of page 4, and 2
different first drafts of page 5, then translated into German and
signed by Höss. That is, the "translation" is the "original", and the
"original" is the "translation". 

	Document 749(b)D was "translated orally" into German from English for
Höss prior to signature. The signature is faint to the point of
illegibility, indicating possible ill health, fatigue or torture. The
torture has been described by Rupert Butler in Legions of Death
(Hamlyn Paperbacks) 

	The "confession" quoted by Sir David Maxwell-Fyfe on April Fool's Day,
April 1, 1946, in which Höss "confessed" to killing 4 million Jews (X
389 <<439-440>>), instead of the usual 2.5 million of April 5, 1946,
has either never existed or has gotten "lost". 

	It is not true that Höss's court appearance at Nuremberg consisted
chiefly of assenting to his affidavit; this is true only of his
cross-examination by Col. John Amen of the U.S. Army. 

	Instead, Höss appeared to testify, and, as usual, contradicted his
affidavit and himself as much as possible (XI 396-422 <<438-466>>). 

	For example, where the affidavit states (XI 416 <<460>>) "we knew when
the people were dead because their screaming stopped", (a crudely
obvious toxicological impossibility), his oral testimony claims (XI
401 <<443>>, in response to grossly improper leading questions posed
by Kaltenbrunner's "defense attorney"), that the people became
unconscious; leaving unsolved the problem of just how he knew when
they were, in fact, dead. He forgot to mention that killing insects
with Zyklon took two days, a fact he mentioned elsewhere (Document
NO-036, p. 3, German text, answer to Question 25, and Kommandant in
Auschwitz, p. 155). 

	With such a slow-acting poison, the people would suffocate first. 

	Höss claimed that the order to kill the Jews of Europe was given
orally (XI 398 <<440>>), but that orders to keep the killings secret
were given in writing (XI 400 <<442>>. He claimed that persons were
cremated in pits at Auschwitz, a notorious swamp (XI 420 <<464>>), and
that gold teeth were melted down on the spot (XI 417 <<460>>), but an
evacuation of the concentration camps to avoid capture would have led
to unnecessary deaths (XI 407 <<449-450>>), and, almost, that there
was no killing program at all! This is worth quoting: 

	"Until the outbreak of war in 1939, the situation in the camps
regarding feeding, accomodation, and treatment of detainees, was the
same as in any other prison or penitentiary in the Reich. The
detainees were treated strictly, yes, but methodical beatings or
ill-treatment were outof the question. The Reichsfuhrer gave frequent
warnings that every SS man who laid violent hands on a detainee would
be punished; and quite often SS men who did ill-treat detainees were
punished. Feeding and accomodation at that time were in every respect
put on the same basis as that of other prioners under legal
administration. The accomodation in the camps during those years was
still normal because the mass influxes at the outbreak of and during
the war had as yet not taken place. When the war started and when mass
deliveries of political detainees arrived, and, later on, when
detainees, who were members of resistence movements, arrived from the
occupied territories, the construction of buildings and the extensions
of the camps could no longer keep up with the number of detainees who
arrived. During the first years of the war this problem could still be
overcome by improvising measures; but, later, due to the exigencies of
the war, this was no longer possible, since there were practically no
building materials any longer at our disposal" - (Note: the bodies are
supposed to have been burnt using wood for fuel.) - . . . This led to
a situation where detainees in the camps no longer had sufficient
powers of resistence against the ensuing plagues and epidemics . . .
the aim wasn't to have as many dead as possible or to destroy as many
detainees as possible. The Reichsfuhrer was constantly concerned with
the problems of engaging all forces possible in the armament industry
 . . These so-called ill- treatments and torturing in concentration
camps, stories of which were spread everywhere amongst the people, and
particularly by detainees who were liberated by the occupying armies,
were not, as assumed, inflicted methodically, but by individual
leaders, sub-leaders, and men who laid violent hands on them . . . If
in any way such a matter was brought to my notice, the perpetrator
was, of course, immediately relieved of his post or transferred
somewhere else. So that, even if he wasn't punished because there
wasn't evidence to prove his guilt, he was taken away and given
another position . . . 

	"The catastrophic situation at the end of the war was due to the fact
that as a result of the destruction of railways and of the continuous
bombings of the industrial works, it was no longer possible to
properly care for these masses, for example, at Auschwitz, with its
140,000 detainees. Improvised measures, truck columns, and everything
else tried by the commandants to improve the situation, were of little
or no avail. The number of sick became immense. There were next to no
medical supplies; plagues raged everywhere. Detainees who were capable
of work were used continuously by order of the Reichsfuhrer, even
half-sick people had to be used wherever possible in industry. As a
result, every bit of space in the concentration camps which could
possibly be used for lodging was filled with sick and dying detainees
 . . 

	"At the end of the war, there were still thirteen concentration camps.
All the other points which are marked here on the map means so-called
labour camps attached to the armament factories situated there . . . 

	"If any ill-treatment of detainees by guards occurred - I myself have
never observed any - then this was possible only to a very small
degree, since all officers in charge of the camps took care that as
few SS men as possible had immediate contact with the inmates, because
in the course of the years the guard personnel had deteriorated to
such an extent that the former standards could no longer be maintained
.. . . 

	"We had thousands of guards who could hardly speak German, who came
>from  all leading countries of the world as volunteers and joined these
units; or we had elder men, between 50 and 60, who lacked all interest
in their work, so that a camp commandant had to take care continuously
that these men fulfilled even the lowest requirements of their duties.
Furthermore, it is obvious that there were elements among them who
would ill-treat detainees, but this ill-treatment was never tolerated.
Furthermore, it was impossible to have these masses of people working
or when in the camp directed by SS men, so that everywhere detainees
had to be engaged to give instructions to the detainees and set them
to work, and who almost exclusively had the administration of the
inner camp in their hands. Of course, a great deal of ill-treatment
occured which couldn't be avoided, because at night there was hardly
any member of the SS in the camps. Only in specific cases were the SS
men allowed to enter the camp, so that the detainees were more or less
exposed to the detainee supervisors." 

	Question (by defense attorney for the SS, Dr. Babel): 

	"You have already mentioned regulations which existed for the guards,
but there was also a standing order in all the camps. In this camp
order there were laid down the punishments for detainees who violated
the camp rules. What punishments were these?" 

	Answer: 

	"First of all, transfer to a "penal company" (Strafkompanie), that is
to say, harder work, and their accomodation restricted; next,
detention in the cell block, detention in a dark cell; and in very
serious cases, chaining or strapping. Punishment by 'strapping'
(Anbinden) was prohibited in the year 1942 or 1943, I can't say
exactly when, by the Reichsfuhrer. Then there was the punishment of
standing to attention during a long period at the entrance to the camp
(Strafstehen), and finally punishment by beating. 

	"However, this punishment of beating could not be decreed by any
commandant independently. He could apply for it." 

	- Oral testimony of Rudolf Höss, 15 April 1946 (XI 403-411
<<445-454>>). 

	Höss's motivation appears to have been to protect his wife and 3
children, and to save the lives of others by testifying that only 60
people knew of the mass killings. Höss attempted to save Kaltenbrunner
by implicating Eichmann and Pohl, who had not yet been apprehended.
(For a similar case, see Heisig's affidavit implicating Raeder, XIII
460-461 <<509-510>>). 

	Höss appeared as a "defense witness", and his cross-examination by the
prosecution was cut short by the prosecution itself (XI 418-419 <<461-
462>>). Perhaps they were afraid he would spill the beans.

	Höss's famous "autobiography" Kommandant in Auschwitz, probably
prepared in question and answer from through interrogation like a
gigantic "affidavit", then written up to be copied in his handwriting,
is not much better. In this book, German text, cremation fires were
visible for miles (p. 159). Everyone in the area knew of the
exterminations (p. 159) the victims knew they were going to be gassed
(pp. 110, 111, 125), but it was possible to fool them (pp. 123-124;
Document 3868-PS), and his family never knew a thing (pp. 129-130).
Höss was a chronic drunkard who "confessed" these things when he had
been drinking (p. 95) or was being tortured (p. 145). 

	It is not true that, according to p. 126 of this text, bodies were
removed from gas chambers by Kapos eating and smoking and/or not
wearing gas masks; the text does not say that. Robert Faurisson has
proven that Höss did make this assertion, but elsewhere, during an
"interrogation". 

	The Polish "translation" of this book, published prior to the
publication of the German "original text", seems to agree with the
German text, except that place names and dates are missing, indicating
that the Polish was probably written first, these details being
inserted later in the German translation. 

	The uncut, unexpurgated complete writings of Rudolf Höss(?) (in
Polish) are available through international library loan (Wspomnienia
Rudolfa Hössa, Komendanta Obozu Oswiecimskiego). 


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:19 PDT 1996
Article: 61875 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 960901: Germany attacks the Zundelsite again!
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:45:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2797 alt.revisionism:61875

On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 12:46:35 -0700, zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E.
Zundel Repost) wrote:

>The Zundelgrams are posted to alt.fan.ernst-zundel and alt.revisionism
>daily, unedited. The opinions expressed do not represent the views of the
>poster, who is not the author. See X-Headers for relevant URLs. A good
>place to start is http://www.nizkor.org/features/ or, if you're in Europe,
>http://www1.de.nizkor.org/nizkor/

>Please note that due to the shutdown of the alpha remailer, replies to the
>ZGram posting address have not worked for some time. The ZGrams will be
>posted from a new address "soon." The official announcement of the change
>will be signed with the PGP key originally established for
>ezundel-repost@alpha.c2.org. For the moment, public posting to
>alt.fan.ernst-zundel, encrypted in the ezundel-repost key if need be, is
>the only contact method supported. 

>------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------

>Good Morning from the Zundelsite:


>This one must take the cake!  Here comes the newest wrinkle:

>Now it turns out, to no one's great surprise, that the government of
>Germany has targeted SPECIFIC German-language documents we posted on the
>Zundelsite as "endangering Germany's youth"!  And this is done by
>government decree called "indizieren." -

>"Indizieren" is the equivalent of what the Catholic Church practiced for
>1,500 years - putting books they did not like on an "index" and thereby
>making it impossible to sell, distribute or advertise them legally.

>Without exception, and not too surprisingly, these "indexed" Zundelsite
>documents are Holocaust-related - and just perusing them might make you
>think that they were chosen not by content so much as by title.  Not one of
>them, by the way, is a book or even a booklet.  They are articles or
>pamphlets - and no one is selling them off our website.

>The titles are: (in English translation)

>The Leuchter Report - End of a Myth
>Auschwitz:  Myths and Facts
>Inside the Auschwitz Gas Chambers
>A Prominent False Witness:  Elie Wiesel
>What Is Holocaust Denial?
>Pressac's New Auschwitz-Book
>The Making of a Holocaust Revisionist
>"Judicial Notice of Unnassailable Fact" - Or Justice?

>Once again it is Ernst Zundel and his bedeviled Zundelsite pioneering
>cyberspace rules dramatically by helping set the boundaries by which the
>Internet will be governed and directed in the future.

>And isn't it ironic that here you have a "Neo-Nazi", reviled and demonized
>for decades, who helps to keep the "free world" free?  It wouldn't be the
>first time.  Remember the Supreme Court decision in the Zundel case in
>1992?  It gave Canada more rights of freedom of expression than it had ever
>had before - while the HoloHucksters were gnashing their teeth!

>Now given the above, several thoughts come to mind:

>1.      Only the German version of these articles was targeted.  We have
>some of the same articles in English.  Does that mean that Germans who
>would like to read these documents would criminalize themselves reading
>them in German but not in English - or Spanish, French, Italian or Swahili?


>2.      The government has no obligation to let an individual or
>organization know which documents are "dangerous" or not.  Once a document
>or book is "indiziert," it is up to the individual to divine that.  Someone
>in the United States - where, so we hope, freedom still reigns - who
>innocently copies and posts one of our documents will not know that he is
>"endangering" Germany's youth.  Inquiring minds will want to know - don't
>you think?  He or she will have no way of knowing that people can go to
>prison for downloading something from his or her website.

	Yes, the index.  The infamous (pardon my Latin) Index Librorum
Prohibatorum.  The Index of Prohibited Books which has been ridiculed
and hated for centuries.  And yet Germany does the same thing with the
approval of holohuggers everywhere.  

	It is obvious that the German government does not consider its people
mature enough to deal with such material.  As such, we need not ask
"Where have all the Nazis gone?" as they are alive and well and living
in Germany.  

	Suppression of the basic right of communication in any form is
justification for violent revolution.  It is only prudence that
dictates a first attempt at a nonviolent attempt first.  And perhaps
even a second or third attempt.  

	But never is the violent overthrow of such a government abnegated by
mere attempts.  There is no requirement to put up with such
limitations upon fundamental human rights in any manner or at any
time.  

>3.      What would happen if, let's say, some 500 websites copied and
>posted a certain document all over the world - just to spit in the face of
>an idiotic law sprung from a repressive medieval mindset and make a stand
>for freedom?  Would the government of Germany hunt and haunt all these
>different websites globally?  Can you imagine the paperwork and cost to the
>taxpayers of Germany?  The loss of face for doing something that blatant to
>protect the political and monetary interests of the Shrill Minority?

	And of course violence on the internet can be just as pervasive and
equally powerful if not more so than physical violence.   The obvious
thing to do at first and as a warning, it to interfere with the
paychecks of government employees.  And as a second thought, to not
harm the employees, multiply their checks by ten or a hundred.  If you
are into subtilty make it by 10%.  That gives them plausible
deniability when they cash them.  

	There is no question that any government suppressing the freedom of
expression in any form needs be, will be and can be brought down in
cyuberspace.  But should that fail, there it the cartridge box.  No
such government has the right to exist.  

>4.      At least one of the documents, "What is Holocaust Denial?" was
>published by the "Canadian Free Speech League" as an official position
>paper.  Does that mean that the government of Germany is dictating to free
>speech supporters in Canada  what philosophical stance they must hold to
>accommodate an already legally discredited version of the Holocaust?

>5.      This is the first time, to my knowledge, where generalizations like
>"Neo-Nazi propaganda" or "pornography" have been narrowed down to specific
>examples on the Internet.  To illustrate: is one thing to say that
>"pornography" is offensive.  Most people would agree with that.  It is
>another thing to say:  "This picture, specifically, is offensive."  This
>brings up the hairy matter of criteria.  At least from a legal point of
>view, it makes the matter of censorship vastly more difficult and
>vulnerable to challenge.

	Save that any rational society says that anything produced by
consenting adults is acceptable.  The only things left are those that
presumably were produced in violation of an existing law such as
kiddie porn.  

	Offensive is not grounds for illegal.  Hillary Clinton is offensive to
some, so is Gilbert Gottfried, so is the entire cast of ID4 to me.  

	The attempt to like pornagraphy and non-"hate" literature is as
offensive as linking Clinton with his black ex-mistress and their
child with the big government agenda.  

	That is is succeeding in the public mind does not in any manner negate
the right to armed overthrow of the government that imposes it,
regardless of prudence.  

>6)      As I understand it, so far the "crime" of forbidden literature in
>Germany was "physical possession".  If you had a book in your bedroom
>drawer in Munich, let's say, that had been "indiziert", the government
>could launch a midnight raid and zap you with fines in the thousands - or
>even send you to prison.  But what if a person decides not to download and,
>hence, to "own" the document where it can be physically seized, but simply
>decides to read and memorize it?  Can the government of Germany seize the
>brain where it is stored?

	Farhenheit 451.  

	Yes.  

	Repeating the information is the next crime.  

>7)      What if a student stumbles accidentally onto a forbidden document,
>reads several paragraphs, says to himself:  "Oh, my God!  This stuff is
>Politically Incorrect!"  and jumps off that site like a hare.  He certainly
>hasn't inhaled.  Could a click on a website be enough to criminalize an
>otherwise perfectly Politically Correct Person?  Who is to say how much of
>it he read?

	He has inhaled.  He must be silenced before he spreads the infection.
Solitary for life a a minimum.  

>8)      What if a person decides to visit and study forbidden documents -
>not for the purpose of hunting for the truth but for the purpose of
>harassing people searching for the truth - let's say, a German version of a
>Nizkorite?  If he or she prints out a document in order to refute it, does
>he or she not "possess" it as well, albeit for Politically Correct reasons?

	As long as one's motives are politically correct all is forgiven.  It
makes for "correct" thinkers.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:20 PDT 1996
Article: 61879 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gas-tight doors
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:44:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <50h25p$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <500pqb$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <506cff$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <50gi9f$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> 
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On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:50:51 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## Matty my boy, nobody but you - "revisionist" or "non-revisionist" -
>## has any doubt that each of Kremas II and III had two large
>## underground cellars. Nobody.

># Then why did your "calculation" use the size of the entire
># structure rather than just of the room?

>Matty, I have no idea what you're talking about. I *did* use
>the size of only one room: the gas chamber, or "cellar I". It
>is about 500 m^3 (30 X 7 X 2.4 m).

	You were off a bit but your 30 meter length is the entire LK and not
one of the five rooms within it.  

># Why did you agree with my calculation which used the total size
># of the structure?

>I don't recal agreeing with anything you've ever claimed.

	You said that your "read between the ascii" and you voiced no
objecctions.  

	But if you DID agree with my numbers then you were completely wrong.
Why are you so dumb?   

># BTW2:  I only started that spreadsheet-which-is-really-not-a-
># wordprocessr after you gave the approximate dimensions of the
># entire building and proceeded to use them for the one and only
># calculation ever presented by an indentified  non-CS major.

>Gee, now I'm hurt. BTW, my B.Sc was indeed in pure math; later,
>I switched to CS, in which I obtained my Ph.D.

	And the horse you rode in on.  
	
># Yes, enough is quite enough.  And do not forget, the layout is on
># Nizkor (the Holocaust's Attic) and if you want to insist upon your
># dimensions as the size of the room then the size of the entire
># structure can be determined.

>The gas chamber (cellar I) was 30 X 7 meters in area. The "undressing
>room" (cellar II) 50 X 8 meters.

	How big is the separate room you calculated upon and why did you use
the entire LK rather than just the size of that one room?  

># You will be amazed at how huge it is.

>Do tell us. By "structure" you mean Kremas II & III?

	I mean the drawing on Nizkor as I said.  

># It will rival several modern structures as the largest ever
># by that construction technique.

>Tell us more about it. But be careful. You don't want to post
>any more incredibly stupid articles, which prove you cannot
>handle basic arithmetic. So, take a friendly advice from a
>non-friend: check your figures before you post. And DON'T
>consult Tom Moran. He's usually off by two orders of
>magnitude.

	I am not going to tell you a damn thing.  You go first with your
second ever calculation.  

	You third.  You were finally first, I was second, it is your turn.
	
	Please be detailed in why you are no changing the size of the gas
chamber despite your first post.  A detailed explanation is required.


	But let me make your explanation a bit more difficult.

	You know already that the total number per day as related to the
number per gassing is a joke when based upon the entire building
dimensions is absurdly to impossibly high.  

	So now you want to make the gas chamber only a fraction of that size.
Certainly you have one thing in your favor, the drawing with the coded
names that came from your fevered imagination.

	But on the other hand you will be moving the total number of gassings
per day from "asurd to impossible" to the "impossible to delusional"
category.  

	Please do it.  I expect you to do it.  I will be disappointed if you
do not do it.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:21 PDT 1996
Article: 61882 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Required Amount Of Zyklon
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:12:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 93
Message-ID: <50h3ra$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4vn109$651@news-e2d.gnn.com>  <4vq2l0$6dv@news-e2d.gnn.com>  <4vul6s$iao@news-e2d.gnn.com> <507mdu$5dc@arl-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> <508c43$dia@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <50fjro$qcu@hil-news-svc-6.compuserve.com>
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 22:38:20 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:29:53 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
>>Bilik) wrote:

>>>In breaf:: 1/ the CO2 was competing with the HCN if the walls were
>>>wet, so very little HCN could react with the walls; 

>>	There is no such competition worth mention as water is ionic enough
>>for both.  And do not forget the all those bodies.

>Ionic enough, huh ? H2CO3 is a stronger acid than HCN. That's a
>competiting effect, since HCO3- can replace the CN- in the cyanide
>compounds.

	Precisely but your interpretation si self-serving to the arugment you
wish were true.  

>>2/ the speed of
>>>solving HCN in water is a very difficult question, and if you have
>>>some clues I'm interested since I'm on my third book to unterstand the
>>>rules with a necessary numerical simulation 

>>	When will you post the results of a numeric simulation of the LKs?  

>When you will have replied; as you say that HCN is going to
>be dissolved in the water, how do you compute the speed of this
>phenomenon? It should be of some interest for you claim to know if the
>phenomenon is very slow or not, and the same for CO2 ?

	Excuse me.  You are the expert in the field.  You are the high
muckty-muck on this subject.  Why would your dispassionate
scientifific work (there is none of course but let us play your game
for the moment) depend upon my post?  I have been indentified by even
scientifically illiterate (all of them) holohuggers as knowing nothng
of science.  

	You are doing "real science" on this subject.  Why would my posting
have anything do to with your progress?

	The only reason I can see is that you are making it up as you go
along, that is, you are a liar.  
	
	But then, prove me wrong.  Tell us all why you would withhold read
science until I reply.  It will be interesting to read.  

>>3/ many testimonies,
>>>corroborating, say that the walls were washed with a nozzle of water
>>>after each gassing, so the little amount of HCN solved in water was
>>>washed and couldn't react.

>>	You kind find eyewitnesses who say anything.  But then you will be the
>>first to post anything about hosing down the walls and the ceiling and
>>the floor and the bodies and all the other places where HCN would be
>>collecting.

>No for the ceiling, but yes for the walls, the floor, the bodies.
>You're right. We can find any truthful eyewitnesses, but no one that
>will fit you.

	FIND AND POST THE EYEWITNESS who claimed any such thing AND the
ceiling must be included.

	When you are ready to admit you made it up or post the eyewitness
acccount you may get back to me.  

>>>In breaf, your science is whimsical. You too, perhaps. I wait for more
>>>serious claims. Incidentally, the K2 and K3 were sometimes heated
>>>before the gassings.

>>In brief, you have presented no science in return.  Why is that?  

>It's difficult to present science in return to your lot of guessworks
>without any calculation or even number. If you remain fuzzy, I can
>only say what doesn't work in your suppositions.

	You difficulty is that you have none to present.  Your above makes
that very clear.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:21 PDT 1996
Article: 61884 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:23:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 68
Message-ID: <50h4em$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <6$P5oOev109N065yn@login.dknet.dk> <3218666d.328313619@news.inetport.com> <500m75$4j3@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <506gg9$28s@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <507v33$d7u@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <50e8no$a8f@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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On 2 Sep 1996 09:17:43 GMT, Nele Abels
 wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>[... I wrote:]
>>>My, my, Mr. Giwer. You know perfectly well that we have that 
>>>"huge paper trail", since I have pushed your nose into it a 
>>>couple of times. That you haven't read the sources is a 
>>>completely different game.

>[...]

>>You should pay more attention to the newsgroup.  Every honest 
>>person knows that there have only been a two or three ambiguous 
>>documents refering to something about gassing.  

>>But then Diogenes must have been searching for a honest 
>>holohugger.  

>You see Mr. Giwer, that's the difference between us two. I know
>perfectly well that the Internet, and especially the newsgroups
>which are frequented by admitted liars, are not the most reliable
>of all informational sources. Therefore I rely for research 
>purposes on _books_ (you know, these old fashioned leafy things
>made of paper). And these books give documents galore, completely
>unambiguous documents too. The holocaust is overwhelmingly well
>documented in contemporary texts - exactly this is the reason
>why the "revisionists" switched to the science-game. You should
>at least try to be informed on the tactics of your fellow 
>believers.

	And of course you belive they can not pring a book unless it is true.


	So what point are you trying to make really?  Are you next going to
tell that they can not say it on television unless it is true? 

>Apart from that. Just the other day I have posted a document 
>about the gassing lorries. Not the testimony of an eye witness,
>but a document by the department for transportation of the SS.
>You must have seen it. What was that talk about "dishonesty" 
>again, eh?

	So what?  The "testimony" as we all know, is so enmired in perjury,
torture and barbaric standards of justice that it is of no value.  We
all know that.  That means that you konw that and I know that.  

>>There's no business like Shoah Business
>>Like no business I know.
>>Everything about it is appealing,
>>Everything that traffic will allow.


>Boy, what a wit...

	Thank you but I owe my inspiration to a Jew.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:22 PDT 1996
Article: 61890 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:46:14 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <50ggn6$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com>  <502sor$8lf@Vir.com> <505mrj$uii@Vir.com>  <199608311622.MAA29091@vixa.voyager.net> <3229C0C8.9C7@kaiwan.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Sep 02 10:46:14 PM PDT 1996
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 09:58:47 -0700, Greg Raven 
wrote:

>Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>> 
>> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>> alt.revisionism)
>> 
>> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
>> 
>> > AFAIK, the recording covers only the first paragraph.
>> 
>> I'm jumping into the middle of this conversation, so I didn't see the
>> context.  If someone had asked how much of the Oct. 4th speech was on
>> tape, the answer is "all of it," all three hours and ten minutes.
>> 
>> > The one with the "most of you know what it is to see 100 corpses
>> > lying side by side, or 500, or a 1,000".
>> >
>> > Some "evacuation".
>> 
>> And don't forget the quote from the next paragraph:
>> 
>>    We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it,
>>    to kill this people who would kill us.
>> 
>> In case anyone revisionists want to object to the translation -- and I'm
>> sure they'd love to find a reason -- I'll make it easy on them. The noun
>> is "dieses Volk" (the same as "unserem Volk" which refers to the German
>> people).  The verb is "umbringen."  "To kill this people" is the best
>> translation, in my opinion, but other acceptable alternatives would be
>> "to kill this race," or the nontranslation "to kill this Volk."
>> 
>> And:
>> 
>>    Because we don't want, at the end of all this, to get sick and
>>    die from the same bacillus that we have exterminated.
>> 
>> The verb there is "ausrotten."  Perhaps our "revisionists" on this forum
>> would like to explain how Himmler was using a colorful idiom about
>> transporting bacteria out of the Reich on microscopic trains.
>> 
>> And don't forget -- according to Greg Raven, this speech doesn't count
>> as evidence for the Holocaust, because Himmler doesn't say anything
>> about gas chambers!

>I don't deny there was a Holocaust, so it is immaterial whether or not
>this speech offers any proof.

>The revisionist posotion deals not with the Holocaust per se, but with
>claims of mass extermination in Nazi gas chambers during the Holocaust.
>Because Himmler's speech does not mention homicidal gas chambers, it
>cannot be used as proof that the Nazis constructed and used homicidal
>gas chambers.

	What I find most interesting on this subject is that one group of
holohuggers is running off at the mouth that "everyone knows the
person on the tape" and another group is trying to taunt me for not
putting up the money to determine who is on the tape.

	Holos lie out of both sides of their huggers.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 07:44:23 PDT 1996
Article: 61893 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #9
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:38:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
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FRANZ VON PAPEN 

	Von Papen was accused of conspiring with Hitler to induce Hindenburg
to take Hilter into government as Reichschancellor. According to this
view, Hindenburg was deceived by Von Papen into believing that civil
war would ensue if this was not done. 

	The Reichschancellor at that time, General Von Schleicher, had
attempted to rule illegally and unconstitutionally for some time
without the support of the National Socialists, who enjoyed the
largest majority in the history of the Reichstag. Many of Hitler's
illegalities actually date back to the period of Von Schleicher's rule
(XXII 102-103 <<118-119>>). This was the only alternative to the chaos
of 41 political parties, each representing some private financial
interest. 

	The democratic victors demanded of Von Papen, in 1946, that he should
have foreseen Hitler's intent to wage "aggresive war" in 1933, and
conspired with Von Schleicher to rule through military dictatorship. 

	Von Schleicher was later shot following the Rohm Putsch. These
shootings were considered legal by Hindenburg, as was evidenced by a
telegram congratulating Hitler (XX 291 <<319>>; XXI 350 <<386>>;
577-578 <<636- 637>>; XXII 117 <<134-135>>). Von Papen also considered
the shooting of Rohm and his followers to have been justified by
emergency (XVI 364 <<401>>), but considered that many other murders
took place which were not justified, and that it was Hitler's duty to
conduct an investigation and punish these acts. This was not done.

	It was conceded by the prosecution at Nuremberg that the Nazi Part
Program contained nothing illegal, and was indeed almost laudable (II
105 <<123>>). The National Socialists were declared legal by the
occupation authorities in the Rheinland in 1925 (XXI 455 <<505>>) and
by the German Supreme Court in 1932 (XXI 568 <<626>>) and by the
League of Nations and Polish Resident General in Danzig in 1930 (XVIII
169 <<187-188>>). 

	It was not clear in 1933 that the Army would unanimously support Von
Schleicher against the National Socialists, who had a legal right to
govern. Hindenburg's refusal to violate the Constitution at the risk
of civil war brought Hitler into government in an entirely legal
manner (see also XXII 111-112 <<128-129>>). Von Papen was accused of
"immoral acts in furtherance of the Common Plan", such as the use of
the intimate "du" form in conversation with the Austrian Foreign
Minister, Guido Schmidt: Von Papen remarked, "Sir David, if you had
ever been in Austria in your life, you would know that in Austria
almost everyone says 'du' to everyone else" (XVI 394 <<435>>). 

	Acts of Von Papen's which could not be called "criminal" were used to
prove the defendant's "duplicity" (no pun intended). A mental
construction was placed on Von Papen's acts with the benefit of
hindsight. 

	It is sometimes alleged that since Von Papen, Fritzsche and Schacht
were acquitted, Nuremberg was a "fair trial". The contrary does not
apply to the International Military Tribunal of the Far East, or other
trials in which there were no acquittals; it is forgotten that the
witchcraft trials of the XVIIth Century averaged 5-10% in acquittals.
Von Papen's case appears at XVI 236-422 <<261-466>>; XIX 124-177
<<139- 199>>. 


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:08 PDT 1996
Article: 61909 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: And Giwer Keeps Lying (Re: Keeping the Belsen myths going)
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:55:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
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On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:48:27 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>A truly spectacular lie from Giwer; have a look, this is
>classical "revisionist tactic".

># In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the
># trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and 
># Oswiecim [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000 
># Jews, representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been
># gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp. 

>A lie, of course. Dr. Bendel

>1) Said the gassing took place in Auschwitz-Birkenu, not Belsen.

>2) Didn't say that all the people were murdered in one night.

>This is, again, a typical "revisionist" tactic: lie about a
>testimony, and distort what a witness really said, in order
>to make him/her look unreliable.

	Mere denial of the truth will get you no where.  






=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:09 PDT 1996
Article: 61910 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Still catching suckers, after all these months..
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:19:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 1 Sep 1996 14:03:28 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay
OBC) wrote:

>In article <3229c6be.7977197@news.pacificnet.net>, 
>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>                        [repost]

>                        [re-troll]
>	
>>	Moran had posted recently "What is "trolling"? 	
>			
>>>	I see a lot of dubbing of "troller" or "trolling" out here. What
>>>does that mean? 
>>>	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
>>>You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling.

>>	Ken McVay responded:

>>"I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
>>inability to use the English language properly, brush your
>>teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
>>manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.

>>There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
>>(Somehow, I doubt it.)"

>                  [change bait, cast again]

>Prophetic, eh? I doubted that Mr. Moran had the brains to
>figure it out back then, and I was absolutely right. Even now,
>months later, he is _still_ too stupid to figure it out. 

>Prediction #2: Three months from now, Mr. Moron, too busy
>trying to find a hooker to take his sister's place, will still
>not have figured it out.

>-- 
>The Nizkor Project     | http://www.nizkor.org/
>-----------------------| Free Giwerundean Lessons Here!
>                       |--------------------------------------
>    http://www.nizkor.org/giwerundean-lesson.cgi


	kmcvay@oneb.nizkor.bc.ca

	by your own postings.  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:10 PDT 1996
Article: 61911 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:50:15 GMT
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On 2 Sep 1996 08:36:39 GMT, joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>In <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net>  writes: 
>>
>>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:

>>>  Ms. "Mulhern"'s essential argument, based on her unrelenting
>>>refrain
>>>(obsession?) that the $1 million of U.S. taxpayer money that the
>>>reported Clinton fundraiser, multimillionaire Hollywood mogul Stephen
>>>Spielberg, was given amounts to just a penny-per-taxpayer (she said
>>>$.25 in her earlier posts, but who's counting?) seems to be this:
>>>
>>Look, can you count? $1 million divided by taxpayers in the U.S. would
>>be a lot less than both her calculations. Do you have a calculator?

>  Look, are you so dense -- or in denial -- that you genuinely cannot
>understand this?: that the fact that each and every U.S. taxpayer was
>forced by their government to contribute "just" a few cents to
>multimillionaire Spielberg for his pet media project is not even, IMO,
>necessarily the main point.
	
	Every citizen what no forced to contribute.  Every citizen was force
to go into a deeper national debt for this million dollars.  It is
only when there is a budget surplus that anyone can talk about
contributing to anything.  

>  More important, to me, is the fact that the William J. Clinton-led
>U.S. government has given a hugely wealthy private citizen -- one who
>is a reported major fundraiser for Clinton, moreover -- a million
>bucks.

	Bingo.  He contributes his maximum, delivers a few others maybe
$50,000 total and he gets back a million.  It is better than cattle
futures.  

>  It's bad enough that the U.S taxpayers have had their taxes raised to
>unprecedented levels in order to allow the government to fund a panoply
>of other projects and programs which have no business receiving
>government money.
>  For the U.S. taxpayers -- who've already paid how-many-millions to
>erect and maintain the Holocaust Museum in Washington (where no similar
>museum exists to memorialize even the American serviceman) -- to be
>forced to now cough up $1 million to hand over to Clinton's
>multimillionaire fundraiser is, IMO, an outrage.

	Every penny if the deficit is an outrage.  

	
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:11 PDT 1996
Article: 61913 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Evil Egyptians
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:04:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <5006k2$l9j@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <28aug199605410009@misvms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50e2e7$1bo8@usenetz1.news.prodigy.com> <322aeee4.1244435@news.pacificnet.net>
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On Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:29:50 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>>  Did you know that over the past fifteen years Israel's GNP has
>>>    grown faster than any other nation's?
>>
>>Big deal.  isra*l's inflation rate is the highest of any country printing 
>>their own money today. Their GNP is measured in terms of stolen sheckels. 

>	Huber, you don't really believe that do you.

>	The logical resonse to the boasterous claim would be to ask, If
>Israel is so awesome in it's economuic growth, why does the U.S. still
>commit billions to the awesome Jewish state?

	You mean they can do something on their own rather than survive on
indistrial espionage (Mirage plans) like all other third world
nations?  

	Sheer BS.  They do not have the industrial base to do anything of
interest.  

	Grant their highly subsidized universities for the moment are turning
out thousands.  So what?

	Just the other day I found a REAL effect of what would be called
antigravity.  

	There is a general rule in DOD.  There are four classes of research,
Basic, Exploratory, Advanced and Engineering.  The role is that each
level costs tens times more than the last.  Israel can ont do anything
mroe than Basic. 

	Finland found the antigravity effect and they could not develop it
even though they have been sitting on it for three years.  They did
not have the money.  

	When it comes to science, Israel is good for one thing, cherry-picking
their best into the US. Sort of a brain hatchery.  Not that they have
any concept of engineering but we will take care of that.  

	The only real value of Israel to the US is a brain hatchery.

	If they can produce enough, fine, there is an investment value.  If
they cannot, then who really gives a damn about them?  
	
	Keep in minds politics rules the world. What have you done for me
lately?  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:12 PDT 1996
Article: 61917 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #2
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:11:23 GMT
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KARL DÖNITZ 

	Dönitz was imprisoned for waging "illegal submarine warfare" against
the British. In international law, everything is a matter of
reciprocity and international agreements, which can only be enforced
through reciprocity. In warfare, the best defense against a weapon is
a vigorous counterattack with the same weapon. The British, due to
their mastery of the seas, fought both world wars through blockade,
and the so-called Navicert system. Neutral ships were stopped at sea,
and forced to pull into British ports where they were searched
according to complicated formulae: if a neutral country imported more
food, fertlizer, wool, leather, rubber, cotton, etc. than the
quantities believed necessary for its own consumption (in the opinion
of the British), the difference was assumed to be intended for
reshipment to the Germans. Result: the ship (and entire cargo) was
confiscated and sold at auction, which also violated the clauses of
all British marine insurance contracts. 

	In 1918-19, the blockade was maintained for 8 months after the
Armistice to force the Germans to ratify the Versailles Treaty.
Hundreds of thousands of Germans died of starvation after the war
while the diplomats delayed, an obvious violation of the conditions of
the Armistice and all international law. This is what Hitler correctly
termed "the greatest breach of faith of all time". The British point
of view appears to be that the blockade was legal but was carried out
in a totally illegal manner (see 1911 Encyplopaedia Brittannica,
"Neutrality", 1922 Encyclopaedia Brittannica, "Blockade", "Peace
Conference". In the war against Japan, the Americans "sank everything
that moved since the first day of the war". 

	Neutrals, including the United States, complained that this violated
their neutrality, but complied, again, in violation of their own
neutrality. A nation which allows its neutrality to be violated may be
treated as a belligerent. 

	The British never ratified the Fifth Hague Convention of 18 October
1907 on the Rights of Neutrals, but considered its terms binding on
the Germans and Japanese, despite an all-participation clause (i.e.,
the convention ceases to apply if a non-signatory participates in the
conflict). 

	In 1939, the Germans possessed only 26 Atlantic-going submarines, one
fifth of the French total alone. Moreover, German submarines were much
smaller than those of other nations. A counterblockade against the
British could only be enforced by warning neutrals not to sail in
waters surrounding the British Isles. To the British, this was a
"crime". 

	Of these 26 submarines, many were, at any one time, under repair; so
that during some months only 2 or 3 were seaworthy. It is obvious that
submarines cannot carry out search and seizure in the same manner as a
surface navy; a submarine, once it has surfaced, is almost defenseless
against the smallest gun mounted on a merchant vessel, not to mention
radio, radar, and aircraft. 

	It was demanded by the British at Nuremberg that German submarines
should have surfaced, notified the surface vessel of their intention
to search; waited for the surface vessel to commence hostilities; then
sink the vessel, presumably with the submarine's deck guns; then take
the dozens of hundreds of survivors on board the submarine (where they
would be in far greater danger than in any lifeboat), and take them to
the nearest land. 

	When British aircraft appeared and sank the submarine, killing the
survivors, they had, of course, been "murdered" by the Germans. No
international convention requires this, and no nation fought in this
manner. Since rescuing survivors rendered the submarine unfit for duty
and frequently resulted in the loss of submarine and crew, Dönitz
prohibited any act of rescue. This was called an order to "exterminate
survivors". This was not upheld in the judgment, however. 

	Dönitz was also accused of encouraging the German people to hopeless
resistance, a crime also committed by Winston Churchill, Dönitz
replied. "It was very painful that our cities were still being bombed
to pieces and that through these bombing attacks and the continued
fight more lives were lost. The number of these people is about
300,000 to 400,000, the largest number of whom perished in the bombing
of Dresden, which cannot be justified from a military point of view,
and which could not have been predicted. "Nevertheless, this figure is
relatively small compared with the millions of German people we would
have lost in the East, soldiers and civilians, if we had capitulated
in the winter." (XIII 247-406 <<276-449>>; XVIII 312-372 <<342-406>>).



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:13 PDT 1996
Article: 61920 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:21:20 GMT
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On 2 Sep 1996 04:03:45 GMT, Brian Harmon  wrote:

>In article <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <3218666d.328313619@news.inetport.com>   <4vlj6l$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <32207BD5.584C@unb.ca> <4vrge8$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <3221FF6F.6B17@unb.ca> <500o7i$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3224D727.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <506796$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>,
>    mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 16:32:55 -0700, Brian Harmon
>>  wrote:
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 16:47:59 -0300, Keith Morrison 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >[snip snip snip]
>> >> >>         You left out that part.  That is you deliberately left out the lack of
>> >> >> evidence of anyone murdered.  But you know that.
>> >> 
>> >> >You mean like rooms with cyanide traces on the walls that were designed
>> >> >with showerheads that were not connected to a water system next to a
>> >> >series of furnaces meant to burn a lot of people?
>> >> 
>> >>         Showerheads and missing copper pipe proves that every abandoned
>> >> building in the US was used for gassing.  We have been over this.  Or
>> >> did you forget?
>> >Except that 'every abandoned building in the US' doesn't have very 
>> >telltale cyanide traces on the walls, do they?

>> 	They have insecticide traces and cyanide was used as an insecticide.
>> So what is your point?  

>Sigh.   This is only true if:

>(1) these abandoned buildings were sprayed with insecticide

>and
> 
>(2) the insecticide used contained cyanide.

>My point, Matt, is that 'every abandoned building' in the US
> differs from the gas chambers in auschwitz by many criteria, 
> including cyanide traces.

	Every abandoned building in the US contains traced of some popular
insecticide or other.  Cyanide was the insecticide of both choice and
necessity on Germany during WW II. 

	There is still no difference.

	In fact even if they were "gas chambers" then, given their genesis, it
would be highly surprising to find no cyanide traces. What is found,
in relationship to other samples is not out of the ordinary anymore
than finding traces of RAID or Max bug spray.  

	But you do know that.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:13 PDT 1996
Article: 61921 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:17:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 39
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On 3 Sep 1996 02:46:27 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  On 31 Aug 1996 23:53:20 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>>  anderson) wrote:

>  
>>  >Actually, Matt, the statement you responded to was that the person
>>  >in question believed in witches--not the devil.  Nevertheless, I
>>  >wasn't responding to that statement, or to your reply--I was pointing
>>  >out that deniers, like you, often engage in name calling.
>  
>>  >Any questions?
>  
>>  	Yes.
>  
>>  	Are you enough of an idiot to believe in witches?  

>	Are you telling us that there is no Wiccan religion?

	I hate to break this to you but there are no witches.  There are no
priests.  There are no rabbis.  There are only deluded people.
Witches, priests, rabbis and whackos are all the same, whackos.  

>	Can you explain why you claim membership in organizations which 
>regularly recognize their existence?

	What are you yammering about now?  
	

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:14 PDT 1996
Article: 61933 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 05:43:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 20:22:47 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy)
wrote:

>Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

>> >   We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it,
>> >   to kill this people who would kill us.
>> 
>> Again, a lot of Jews were still there at the end of the war

>Here "revisionism" hits its nadir:  the Nazis are to be inculpable because
>their attempt to exterminate European Jewry was not a complete success.

>> Again, Himmler
>> equate explicitelly ausrotten with evacuation at the begining of his speech.

>"We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it,
>to kill this people who would kill us."

>> He is often refering to jews as saboteurs, partisans, and if I consider the
>> explanation that killing several Jews, removing all their goods, uprooting
>> them is, indeed, 'killing the jewry', this sounds different.

>In other words, if you squint your eyes, tilt your head, and pretend he meant
>something different, then it doesn't look so bad.

>Open your eyes wide:

>"We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it,
>to kill this people who would kill us."

>>   The brutal treatment of the Jews looks to me like the brutal treatment of the
>>   muslin hinduish who were expelled from this country

>"We have the moral right, we had the duty to our people to do it,
>to kill this people who would kill us."

	But the problem being that there is no physical evidence of any of
this having happened.  None whatsoever.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:15 PDT 1996
Article: 61935 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: to keep you folks up to date
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:16:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 01 Sep 96 15:17:28, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [Matt  Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[to keep you folks up to date] [Sunday September 01 1996 08:30][*][0]*>

> MG>   Alec Grynspan continues to mail bomb me (in denfense of
> MG> another holohugger as his sllippery excuse) and uu.net and its
> MG> subsidiary uunet.ca continue to aid and abit his mail bombing
> MG> despite repeateed reports of his activities.


>You're still stuck here, Matt. The only way out is to admit that you
>lost to the truth and leave - and you can't do that.

>1. No mailbombs from here, little boy.

	You are lying.

	You also told me on the phone that you did wetwork for the Mossad.
That makes you a murderer for a Jewish intelligence organization.  No
URLs, you what you told me on the phone. 

>2. uu.net has zero say in the matter. This one reminds me of your
>   rantings about Internet Direct.

>3. uunet.ca is not its subsidiary and is not my provider.

	You could fool finger?  

> MG>   It is unclear if harrassment of this sort is criminal but is
> MG> cerrainly a violation of netiquette.

>1. No it isn't.  No mailbombs, Matt. You're just looking for an
>   excuse to leave.

	Liar and self described murderer.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:16 PDT 1996
Article: 61951 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #10
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:39:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 179
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 12:39:28 AM PDT 1996
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JOACHIM VON RIBBENTROP 

	Von Ribbentrop was hanged for signing the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact,
which preceeded and made possible the attack on Poland. 

	Ribbentrop defended his actions on the grounds that one million
Germans had been expelled from Polish territory over a 20-year period,
accompanied by numerous atrocities, and that complaints to the World
Court in The Hague and the League of Nations in Geneva had been
ignored for just as long. These were ethnic Germans with Polish
citizenship living in lands given to the new Polish state under the
Versailles Treaty. 

	On October 23, 1938, Ribbentrop made an offer to the Poles which the
British ambassador, Sir Neville Henderson, admitted was reasonable,
calling it a "pure League of Nations proposal": Ribbentrop asked for a
plebiscite in the Polish corridor; the return of Danzig (a 100% German
city) to the Reich, and the construction of an extra-territorial
double-track railway and highway across the Corridor to East Prussia,
which had previously been separated from the rest of Germany and could
only be reached by sea, in defiance of all common sense, that is, a
land bridge to East Prussia (X 260-269 <<295-304>>; 280-281
<<317-318>>; 367-369 <<416- 417>>).

In return, the Poles were to receive an advantageous financial
settlement: a guarantee of port facilities and outlet for Polish goods
through the port of Danzig. The future of the Corridor was to be
decided according to the principle of self-determination, the Poles
would receive an outlet to the sea, and the German-Polish Friendship
Pact (signed by Hitler in 1934 in the face of bitter German
opposition), would be renewed for an additional period (XIX 362-368
<<399-406>>. For the prosecution version of these same events, see III
209-229 <<237-260)). 

	This was the "Nazi Plan to conquer the world" which served as a
pretext for the entire war, including, eventually, Pearl Harbor,
Hiroshima, and Yalta. 

	In reply, the Poles maintained that any change in the status of Danzig
would mean war with Poland. A general mobilization was ordered. The
expulsions continued, filling refugee camps along the Polish border. 

	The Polish ambassador, Lipski, reportedly stated on August 31, 1939,
that he was well aware of conditions in Germany, having served there
for many years. He was not interested in any note or proposal from
Germany. In the event of war, revolution would break out in Germany,
and the Polish Army would march in triumph to Berlin (XVII 520-521
<<565-566>>; 564-566 <<611-614>>; XX 607 <<661>>). 

	Ribbentrop claimed that the attitude of the Poles made war inevitable;
that the problem of the Corridor and the expulsions had to be solved;
that for both Hitler and Stalin the territories involved had been lost
to both countries after a disastrous war followed by equally
disastrous treaties (X 224-444 <<254-500>>; XVII 555-603 <<602-655>>).


	To the Germans at Nuremberg, there appeared only one explanation: the
Poles and the British were in contact with the so-called German
underground, which had grossly exaggerated its own importance (XVII
645-661 <<699-717>>; XIII 111-112 <<125-126>>). 

	Hitler's interpreter appeared as a witness, and testified that the
Germans could not believe that the British would go to war over
something which their ambassador admitted was reasonable. According to
the interpreter, Paul Schmidt, there was a full minute of silence when
the message of the British declaration of war was delivered, after
which Hitler turned to Ribbentrop and said "What shall we do now?" (X
200 <<227>>). 

	Schmidt's testimony shed light on a famous remark attributed to Von
Ribbentrop, that Jews should be killed or confined to concentration
camps. What happened, according to Schmidt (X 203-204 <<231>>) was
that Hitler was putting pressure on Horthy to take stronger measures
against Jews. Horthy said, "What am I supposed to do? I can't kill
them." Ribbentrop was very irritable and said, "There are two
alternatives: either you can do just that, or they can be interned."
This appeared in the minutes of the conference as "The Reichs Foreign
Minister said that Jews should be killed or confined to concentration
camps". The statement was used against Ribbentrop and all other
defendants during the trial, despite Schmidt's testimony that the
minutes were inaccurate (X 410-411 <<462-463>>). 

	According to Ribbentrop, Raeder, Göring, and nearly all defendants
except Schacht, the Germans were not prepared for war and did not plan
"aggression" (XVII 522 <<566-567>>), XXII 62, 90 <<76, 105>>). 

	The invasion of Belgium, Holland, and France were not "aggression",
because France had declared war on Germany. Belgium and Holland
allowed British planes to fly over their countries every night to bomb
the Ruhr. The Germans protested in writing 127 times (XVII 581
<<630>>, XIX 10 <<16>>). 

	Göring, Raeder, Milch and many others testified that Germany had only
26 Atlantic submarines with insufficient torpedoes, as opposed to 315
submarines in 1919 (XIV 26 <<34>>), and a "ridiculous" bomb supply
(XIX 4-5 <<11-12>>). 

	Hitler told Field Marshall Milch in May 1939 that there was no need
for full bomb production, as there would be no war. Milch replied that
full bomb production would take several months to bring to capacity.
The order to begin full production of bombs was not given until
October 12 or 20, 1939 (IX 50 <<60-61>>; XVII 522 <<566-567>>).

The German Air Force was designed for defensive, pin-point bombing;
the Germans cooperated with both the Russians and the British in
exchange of technical information of military value until 1938 (IX
45-133 <<54-153>>; XIV 298-351 <<332-389>>). 

	The Germans never built anywhere near the number of ships and
especially submarines (XIV 24 <<31>>) allowed to them under the terms
of the Anglo-German Naval Accord of 1935 (XVIII 379-389 <<412-425>>).
This agreement represented a recognition by the British that the
Versailles Treaty was out of date. It was also a voluntarily
undertaken limitation by Hitler of German naval armament (XIX 224-232
<<250-259>>). 

	When war broke out, many large German battleships were still under
construction and had to be scrapped, because they would have taken
years to finish (XIII 249-250 <<279-280>>; 620-624 <<683-687>>).
According to an affidavit signed by her captain, one of Germany's
largest battleships, the Gneisenau, was on a training cruise near the
Canary Islands when war broke out, without any ammunition suplies (XXI
385 <<425>>). 

	Hitler was a bluffer who loved to terrify politicians with grossly
illogical, self-contradictory speeches (XIV 34-48 <<43-59>>; 329-330
<<366>>), which all contradicted each other (XXII 66-68 <<80-81>>).
For this reason, exact stenographic notes were never taken until 1941
(XIV 314-315 <<349-350>>). 

	Many "Hitler speeches" are semi-falsifications or forgeries (XVII
406-408 <<445-447>>, XVIII 390-402 <<426-439>>; XXII 65 <<78-79>>). 

	The Germans believed they were no longer bound by the Versailles
Treaty because its terms - the preamble to Part V - had been violated
by the British, and especially the French. German disarmament was to
be followed by general disarmament (IX 4-7 <<12-14>>; XIX 242 <<269>>,
356 <<392>>). 

	Hitler had offered to disarm to the last machine gun, provided other
nations did likewise; but Germany could not remain in a weakened
position forever, to be invaded and crushed at any moment. The
reoccupation of the Rhineland gave Germany a natural frontier
protecting the Ruhr, and would have been a matter of course for any
government. Eastern Europe seethed with conflict between heavily armed
states; East Prussia was not defensible; the Poles were openly
demanding parts of Upper Silesia (XII 476-479 <<520-524>>; XIX 224-232
<<249-259>>, XX 570- 571 <<623-624>>). 

	The French-Soviet Accord of 5 December 1934 violated the Locarno Pact,
which the Germans were convicted of violating (XIX 254, 269, 277
<<283, 299, 308>>). 

	It was not clear that the occupation of the remainder of
Czechoslovakia violated the Munich Accord (X 259 <<293-294>>). This
was done because the Russians were building airports there, in
cooperation with the Czechs. The Czechs hoped to turn the remainder of
Czechoslovakia into a "aircraft carrier" from which Germany could be
attacked (X 348 <<394-395>>; 427- 430 <<480-484>>). Roosevelt had
declared that American interest extended to all of the Western
Hemisphere, and Britain claimed dominion over half the world; surely
German interest could extend as far as Czechoslovakia. From Prague to
Berlin by plane is half an hour; Czech actions were plainly
threatening to German security. 

	There is no such thing as a treaty which lasts forever. Generally,
they are superceded by subsequent treaties, and become obsolete. This
is usually covered in the language of the treaty itself by the words
"rebus sic stantibus". By 1935, Versailles and Lucarno had become
obsolete. 
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:17 PDT 1996
Article: 61955 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gassed again and again
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:06:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 38
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On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 14:52:08 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>This is, indeed, one testimony which is probably untrue.

>It was given by a child, who was 11-years-old when the war
>ended. 

	Elie Wiesel was 14 when he started lying and was younger when he
"witnessed" the geysers of blood from bodies that can not be found.
Anne Frank was 12-13 when her father lied in her stead or she lied for
herself at that age, your choice.  But you know that.  

	Age only matters when it is against holohuggery.  

A child of that age is not, of course, expected to
>give a very accurate testimony, moreover after living in 
>a concentration camp.

	No CHILDREN of that age can be expected to give accurate testimony.

>I guess Giwer feels like a big hero, picking on a child?

>Wouldn't it be better to try and look for a job, Matty?

	And how do you feel believing other children?  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 13:21:18 PDT 1996
Article: 61964 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Put up or shut up, Mr. Giwer: The Himmler tape
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:15:54 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4veimi$jtm@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4vggrj$esg@news.enter.net> <4vikjj$46u@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4vjs9v$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> 
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:61964 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:515

On Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:17:06 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4vjs9v$ib3@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> 
>>         It is interesting to read that Nizkor/DOD has created a false claim as
>> to this person being Himler.  

>1. There is no Nizkor/DOD

	McVay now signs his posts oneb.nizkor.bc.ca.  Onbe was DOD parent
organization of the other McVay.

	Admit you have been suckered in for a change.  

	You have been had by a US DOD employee/contractor.  He lied to you.
His followers lied to you.  Get over it.  
 
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:11 PDT 1996
Article: 61968 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Ingratitude Towards Nazi Humaneness
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:29:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
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On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 07:49:45 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># They have not been.  Care to post them?  A URL even?  Stop
># trying to fake it.  You are not good at it.

>How do you know that none of the "euthanasia" chambers were
>ever found? On what do you base this statement? Did you
>read it somewhere? I'm just curious to know, in general,
>what makes you say things.

	They were not found because the never existed.  

	Post the URL.  

>I seem to recall that in Michael Burleigh's "Death and
>Deliverance" there's a photo of one of these gas chambers;
>I may be confusing it with a different book. I'll try
>to check. I think it was in Brandenburg. If someone has
>the book - I'll be grateful for help. I don't currently
>have a copy.

	Post the URL.  

># It is difficult to get through to a proclaimed PhD in CS
># who thinks spreadsheets have to do with word processing.
># You are a clear fraud.

>Matty, what do you mean, exactly, by "fraud"?

>Please, do not vent your anger, frustration, and inferiority
>complex at me. I am not to blame for your life being a failure.

	You simply are not what yuo claim to be.  That makes you a fraud.  

>## Are you claiming it would have been impossible to get enough
>## into a container to kill the people? Do you know how many parts-
>## per-million of CO will kill a person? And if they needed two
>## containers, so what?

># As I said, you have to know something about the subject first.
># As I have no idea what education you might have it is difficult
># to know where to start explaining it to you.

>Your failure to reply is noted.

	Post the URL.  No gas chambers, no bodies, not one damned bit of
physical evidence to support any of the gassing claims.  Every damned
claim is a fantasy.  

># I see. You are saying that when the program was described by
># holohuggers a few months ago as secret they holohuggers were lying.

>Matty, the program was secret. But it's very hard, or impossible,
>to keep something like this a secret for a long time. The German
>population eventually learned of the mass murder of the insane
>and mentally retarded, and began to protest; especially, the
>clergy was very unhappy about the murders.

>I routinely post here some letters about this, inculding letters
>of protest from priests, and a letter from Himmler to Brack,
>in which he notes that the attempt to keep the plan a secret
>is not completely successful.

	Please do not let me discourage you from your routine spamming.  

	I have more than enough material now to "counter-spam" anything you
and oneb.nizkor.bc.ca chooses to post.  

	Remember boy, this is my conference.  

	The games you people play are no longer valid.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:12 PDT 1996
Article: 61984 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #4
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:34:48 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 145
Message-ID: <50gn2u$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 12:34:54 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

HERMANN GÖRING 

	Göring was accused of creating the concentration camp system and
plotting "aggressive war" against Poland. Göring's defense was that
Germany was a sovereign state, recognized by every government in the
world (XXI 580-581 <<638-639>>); that Hitler was legally elected; that
every nation has the right to legislate and to organize its affairs as
it sees fit; that General von Schleicher had attempted to rule
illegally and unconstitutionally without the support of the National
Socialists; that Germany was on the verge of civil war in 1933; that
concentration camps were invented by the British during the Boer War,
and that internment of aliens and political opponents was practiced by
both Britain and the United States during WWII. 

	The order to create the camps was unquestionably legal under an
emergency clause in the Weimar Constitution, and was signed by
Hindenberg (Reich President's Decree of 28 February 1933), under the
authority of Article 48, paragraph 2, of the Weimar Constitution (XVII
535 <<581>>, XIX 357 <<394>>). 

	According to a prosecution document, Document R-129 (III 506 <<565-
566>>)) there were 21,400 inmates in all German concentration camps
put together in 1939. 300,000 persons were confined in ordinary
prisons (XVII 535-536 <<581-582>>, XX 159 <<178>>). 

	One year after the war, 300,000 Germans were held in Allied prison
camps under "automatic arrest" clauses in Allied agreements (such as
Point B-5 of the Joint Declaration of Potsdam) (XVIII 52 <<62>>).

The majority of prisoners in German concentration camps were
Communists and common criminals (XVII 535-536 <<581-582>>, XXI 516-
521 <<570-576>>, 607-614 <<677-685>>). 

	During the war, due to the Allied blockade, the camp system was
expanded to utilize the labour of enemy aliens, criminals, Jehova's
Witnesses and Communists. It was pointed out that America imprisoned
11,000 Jehova's Witnesses (XI 513 <<563>>). 

	Britain fought both world wars in defiance of international law by
reducing Germany and any occupied territories to literal starvation
through blockade (XIII 445-450 <<492-497>>; XVIII 334-335
<<365-367>>). It was this which necessitated requisitions and labour
conscription in occupied territories, legal under Article 52 of The
Fourth Hague Convention on Land Warfare 18 October 1907. It was this
which made people happy to work in Germany and remit wages to their
families (between two and three billion Reichsmarks during the war). 

	The "slaves" paid German taxes on their wages, and were disciplined
through fines, which could not exceed a week's wages (V 509 <<571>>).
For gross indiscipline, they could be sent to a work camp (not a
concentration camp) for a period not exceeding 56 days (XXI 521
<<575-576>>). It was strictly forbidden to beat or mistreat them. 

	Prisoners of war could volunteer to be released from prisoner of war
camps and work in industry, in which case they were treated like any
other industrial workers (XVIII 496-498 <<542-544>>), but lost
protection under the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention. They could not
be forced to do so. 

	The Vichy Regime in France obtained the release and immediate return
home of 1 prisoner of war for every 3 workers sent to Germany under
contract for a period of 6 months (XVIII 497 <<543>>). It was not
possible to violate the Geneva Prisoner of War Convention by forcing
French, Belgian or Dutch prisoners to participate in hostilities
against their own countries, because their own countires were no
longer fighting (XVIII 472- 473 <<516>>.

As for the attack on Poland, the Polish crisis existed for over a year
prior to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact and the German and Soviet attack.
During this entire time, the Poles never called for an impartial
international Court of Arbitration; never called on the League of
Nations; because they did not wish an equitable solution. They were
content to continue to violate their international agreements by
expelling Polish citizens of German descent, as well as many hundreds
of thousands of Jews (XVI 275 <<304>>). 

	The influx of Polish Jews into Germany was the principal immediate
cause of German anti-Semitism, according to many defendants and
defense witnesses (XXI 134-135 <<155>>; XXII 148 <<169>>). Polish Jews
were involved in many financial scandals and swindling schemes, such
as the Barnat-Kutitsky affair (XXI 569 <<627>>). 

	As for "conspiracy to wage war in defiance of the laws of war", of
course it was the British who did that, with mass aerial bombings.
German soldiers went into battle with detailed written instructions
that property was to be respected; prisoners must be humanely treated;
women must be respected; and so on (IX 57-58 <<68-69>>, 86
<<100-101>>, XVII 516 <<560>>). 
		
	Frequent trials resulting in many death penalties against Germans were
carried out by the German armed forces against members of their own
armed forces for rape or looting, even if the value of the property
involved was slight (XVIII 368 <<401-402>>, XXI 390 <<431>>, XXII 78
<<92>>). 

	Requisition of government property was legal under the Hague
Convention. The Soviet Union was not a signatory to this convention.
In any case, in Communist countries there was no private property.
Göring said he had been to Russia, and the people there had nothing to
steal (IX 349-351 <<390-393>>). 

	Furthermore, the Allies were presently engaged in everything they
accused the Germans of doing (XXI 526 <<581>>; XXII 366-367
<<418-420>>).

Göring demolished the "pressure chamber medical experiment" accusation
by saying that every airman had to test his physical reactions to high
altitude; there was nothing sinister about a so-called "pressure
chamber" (XXI 304-310 <<337-344>>). Americans carried out medical
experiments resulting in death while the Nuremberg trial was still
going on (XIX 90-92 <<102-104>>; see also XXI 356, 370 <<393, 409>>). 

	Ironically, it was alleged that "defensive war" included preventive
attack (XXII 448 <<508>>) or to protect citizens of a foreign country
>from  their own government (XIX 472 <<527>>; XXII 37 <<49>>), except
when Germans did it (X 456 <<513>>). Protests that Germans did just
that were ignored. 

	The Soviets had 10,000 tanks and 150 divisions massed along the border
of eastern Poland, and had increased the number of airports in their
section of the country from 20 to 100. Detailed maps were later found
which would not have been necessary for defensive purposes. It was
believed that to await an attack upon the oil fields of Roumania or
the coal fields of Silesia would be suicidal (XIX 13-16 <<20-23>>, XX
578 <<630-631>>; XXII 71 <<85>>). 

	It seems unlikely that nations with vast colonial empires (Britain,
France) or claims upon entire hemispheres (the United States) could
agree upon a workable definition of "aggressive war". Indeed it was
admitted in the judgment of Nuremberg that "defense", "aggression",
and "conspiracy" were never defined (XXII 464, 467 <<527, 531>>). No
doubt "defensive war" is the medieval "bellum justum" dressed up in
liberal jargon (IX 236-691 <<268-782>>; XVII 516-550 <<560-597>>; XXI
302-317 <<335-351>>). 


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:12 PDT 1996
Article: 61985 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #8
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:37:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 130
Message-ID: <50gn87$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 12:37:43 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

ERNST KALTENBRUNNER 

During Kaltenbrunner's cross examination, he was indignantly asked how
he had the nerve to pretend he was telling the truth and that 20 or 30
witnesses were lying (XI 349 <<385>>). 

	The "eyewitnesses", of course, did not appear in court; they were
merely names on pieces of paper. One of these names is that of Franz
Ziereis, commandant of Mauthausen concentration camp. 

	Ziereis "confessed" to gassing 65,000 people; making lampshades out of
human skin; manufacturing counterfeit money; and supplied a
complicated table of statistical information containing the exact
number of inmates in 31 different camps. He then accused Kaltenbrunner
of ordering the entire camp (Mauthausen) to be killed upon the
approach of the Americans. 

	Ziereis had been dead for 10 and a half months when he made this
"confession". Fortunately, the "confession" has been "remembered" by
someone else: a concentration camp inmate named Hans Marsalek, who
never appeared in court, but whose signature appears on the document
(Document 3870-PS, XXXIII 279-286). 

	Pages 1 through 6 of this document are in quotation marks(!),
including the statistical table, which states, for example, that there
were 12,000 inmates at Ebensee; 12,000 at Mauthausen; 24,000 at Gusen
I and II; 20 inmates at Schloss-Lindt, 70 inmates at
Klagenfurt-Junkerschule, etc, for all of 31 camps in the table. 

	The document is not signed by anyone else alleged to have been present
at Ziereis's "confession", and no notes alleged to have been taken at
the time are appended to the document. The document bears two
signatures only: that of Hans Marsalek, the inmate; and that of Smith
W. Brookhart Jr. U.S. Army. The document bears the date 8 April 1946.
Ziereis died 23 May 1945. 

	The pretense was that Ziereis was too seriously injured (he died of
multiple gunshot wounds through the stomach) to sign anything at the
time, but he was healthy enough to dictate this lengthy and complex
document, which was then "remembered" exactly and verbatim by Marsalek
for 10 and a half months. Marsalek would, of course, have had no
motivation to lie. The document is in German. Brookhart was a
confession ghostwriter who also wrote the "confessions" of Rudolf Höss
(in English, Document 3868-PS) and Otto Ohlendorf (in German, Document
2620-PS). 

	(Brookhart was the son of a Senator from Washington Iowa. Address in
1992: 18 Hillside Drive, Denver Colorado, USA. Brookhart never
answered my letter as to whether he had any papers or memoirs.) 

	Ziereis's "confession" continues to be taken seriously by Reitlinger,
Shirer, Hilberg, and other itinerant peddlars of Holo-Schlock. 

	Kaltenbrunner claimed that there were 13 central concentration camps
or "Stammlager" during the war (XI 268-269 <<298-299>>). The
prosecution total of 300 concentration camps was achieved by including
perfectly normal work camps. The 13th camp, Matzgau, near Danzig, was
a special camp whose prisoners were SS guards and police who had been
sentenced to imprisonment for offenses against prisoners in their
charge: physical mistreatment, embezzlement, theft of personal
property, etc. This camp with its inmate SS men fell into the hands of
the Russians at the end of the war (XI 312, 316 <<345, 350>>). 

	Kaltenbrunner claimed that sentences passed by SS and police courts
were far more severe than sentences passed by other courts for the
same offenses. The SS carried out frequent trials of their own men for
offenses against inmates and violations of discipline (XXI 264-291,
369-370 <<294- 323, 408-409>>). 

	Third degree methods of interrogation were permitted by law for the
sole purpose of obtaining information relating to future resistance
activity; it was forbidden for the purpose of obtaining confessions.
These interrogators required the presence of a doctor, and allowed a
total of 20 blows with a stick once only, on the bare buttocks, a
process which could not be repeated later. Other forms of legal "Nazi
torture" included confinement in a dark cell, or standing during
lengthy interrogations (XX 164, 180-181 <<184, 202-203>>; XXI 502-510;
528-530 <<556-565, 583-584>>). 

	Kaltenbrunner and many other defense witnesses claimed that similar
methods were used by police all over the world (XI 312 <<346>>) and
that respected police officials visited Germany to study German
procedures (XXI 373 <<412>>). 

	Defense evidence on this and related topics amounts to many thousands
of pages divided between the Tribunal and "commission", and 136,000
affidavits (XXI 346-373 <<382-412>>; 415 <<458>>, 444 <<492>>). 

	Kaltenbrunner was convicted of conspiring to "lynch" Allied airmen who
committed mass bombings of civilians. The lynchings would have been
illegal, but did not occur. Many airmen were saved from mobs by German
officials. The Germans refused to contemplate such a matter, fearing
it would lead to a general slaughter of parchuted fliers. Like so many
other German crimes, this remained an idea without effect (XXI 406-407
<<449- 450>>, 472-476 <<522-527>>).

Another crime committed by Kaltenbrunner was responsibility for the
so- called "Bullet Order". This is supposed to have been an order to
shoot prisoners of war using a measuring contraption (probably
inspired by the Paul Waldmann pedal-driven brain bashing machine,
Document USSR-52, VII 377 <<416-417>>). 

	The "Bullet Order", Document 1650-PS, if it is an authentic document,
which it probably is not (XVIII 35-36 <<43-44>>) is a mistranslation:
the sense of the order is that prisoners who attempt to escape should
be chained to an iron ball (Kugel), and not that they should be shot
with a "bullet" (also Kugel). The word "chained" appears in the
document, but the word "shot" does not (III 506 <<565>>; XXI 514
<<568>>); Gestapo affidavit 75; XXI 299 <<332>>). The document is a
"teletype" thus, without a signature (XXVII 424-428). 

	"Sonderbehandlung" (special treatment) is an example of the ugly
jargon used in all bureaucracies, and is probably best translated as
"treatment on a case by case basis". Kaltenbrunner was able to show
that it meant, in the context of one document, the right to drink
champagne and take French lessons. The prosecution got a winter resort
mixed up with a concentration camp (XI 338-339 <<374-375>>); (XI
232-386 <<259-427>>; XVIII 40-68 <<49-80>>). (The winter resort
document is Document 3839-PS, XXXIII 197- 199, an "affidavit"). 


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:13 PDT 1996
Article: 61989 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: sound of a stuck pig
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:29:13 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 127
Message-ID: <50gq8r$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03  1:29:15 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Does a stuck pig squealing remind you of this?
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 02:12:51 GMT

	He were have the Gang of Six complaining about exactly what they have
been doing for years, monopolizing the conference and preventing any
discussion of revisionism.  

	Not only as individuals but by email conspiracy as to how to deal with
people who won't believe what the Gang insists they must believe.  

	Their entire intention to silence those who will not believe as they
believe.  And they have been doing it for years, driving people out of
the NG.

	And now when the same thing happens to them, they complain about it.
Or
is it not closer to the term they are so willing to use, whine about
it.


	Anyone want to feel sorry for these poor little holohuggers.  They do
not have "their" conference any longer.  

	They can no longer drive unbelievers out of it and brag about doing
so.


	It is of interest how many people I have found who will attest to this
gang behavior.  

	They have lost in a fair fight of about 10 to 1.  And now they just
can't deal with it. 

	It is curious what they think an alt conference is all about.  

>Return-Path: 
>Received: (from smap@localhost) by ixmail1.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
>	id FAA24541; Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
>Received: from eff.org(204.253.162.3) by ixmail1 via smap (V1.3)
>	id sma024509; Fri Jun 21 05:02:58 1996
>Received: (from declan@localhost) by eff.org (8.6.13/8.6.6) id FAA12849;
Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:04:11 -0700
>Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 05:04:11 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Declan McCullagh 
>To: Jamie McCarthy 
>cc: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca, dkeren@world.std.com,
>        mstein@access.digex.net, hostrov@uniserve.com, gmcfee@ibm.net,
>        codohmail@aol.com
>Subject: Re: A discrepency among exterminationists...
>In-Reply-To: <199606210822.EAA00053@vixa.voyager.net>
>Message-ID: 
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>
>Thanks for the note, Jamie.
>
>-Declan
>
>
>On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Jamie McCarthy wrote:
>
>> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
>> news.admin.net-abuse.misc, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.revisionism)
>> 
>> Cross-posted to news.admin.net-abuse.misc;  emailed "FYI" to various
>> people whom Giwer calls "hijackers" and several pro-free-speech
>> acquaintances of mine, as well as Mr. Giwer himself of course.
>> 
>> Matt Giwer states proudly and publicly that his goal is to take
>> alt.revisionism and "make it useless" to everyone with whom he disagrees.
>> He has so far tried to accomplish this chiefly through sheer posting
>> volume.  Quite an upstanding net.citizen is Mr. Giwer!
>> 
>> In article <4qcq70$4uk@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> wrote (quoted in its entirety):
>> 
>> : tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> : 
>> : >dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>> : 
>> : >>Heck, since Dan Keren is using retreads, I may as well do the same:
>> : 
>> : >Dvd, I don't think there is any need to justify using material that
>> : >has been posted before. After all, the material is not posted out here
>> : >just to convince the usual. It should be posted for the reasons of
>> : >informing any new comers to alt.rev.
>> : 
>> :         I think it is an outstanding policy to return floods of reposts
with
>> : floods of reposts.  
>> : 
>> :         After all the holohuggers think they own this conference.  It
is about
>> : time they learned better.  After all if a low IQ person such as I can do
>> : what two of them now have said I have done, if everyone starts doing
>> : this we may be able to firmly re-establish this as a conference on
>> : revisionism.  
>> : 
>> :         That is, make it useless to the hijackers.  
>> 
>> Nizkor will continue to maintain an archive on this net abuser's tactics
>> and goals at:
>> 
>> http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/net-abuse
>> -- 
>>  Jamie McCarthy          http://www.absence.prismatix.com/jamie/
>>  jamie@voyager.net     Co-Webmaster of http://www.almanac.bc.ca/
>>  Unless you specify otherwise, I assume pro-"revisionism" email
>>  to be in the public domain.            I speak only for myself.
>> 
>
>
>// declan@eff.org // I do not represent the EFF // declan@well.com //


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:14 PDT 1996
Article: 61992 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ye shall smell gas where there be no gas
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:16:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <50h7j6$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50908b$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50g1dr$r34@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:61992 alt.politics.white-power:41813

On 3 Sep 1996 01:25:15 GMT, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>In message <50908b$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> - mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
> Giwer) writes:
>:>
>:>There's no business like Shoah Business
>:>Like no business I know.
>:>Everything about it is appealing,
>:>Everything that traffic will allow.
>:>No where can you get that happy feeling
>:>Then when your stealing

>He's a liar.

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/index-lies.html

>An admitted liar.

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted.html

>A coward.

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/m/mcvay-ken/put-up-shut-up.html

>A loser.

>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/



>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time

	Yes, name calling, name calloing and namecalling.  That being all you
holohuggers have going for you.  

	You are very stupid.  You are a holohugger.  Those are redundant.
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:14 PDT 1996
Article: 61993 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: It's Lazarus risen, sait Tom Bolyn
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:18:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <50h7nj$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
References: <5090vu$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <322B0AA0.6DDA@serv.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03  5:18:59 AM PDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 02 Sep 1996 16:26:08 +0000, Laurinda Stryker
 wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>

>>         It is amazing how many people have sworn Tereseinstadt was a show camp
>> that was later exterminated.  

>How many have sworn that, Mr. Giwer?  Who are they?  Come on, give us 
>references: we want to be amazed, too.


> 

>Laurinda Stryker


	Read the frigging NG for further details.

	I no longer go over old info.  It is a waste of time.  
You re making yourself a waste of time.  

	Research it.  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:15 PDT 1996
Article: 61994 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Parades His Ignorance and Foolishness: Diesel Engines
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:48:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 128
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References:  <509ss3$621@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50c0ab$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <1SEP199621262273@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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On 1 Sep 1996 21:26 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <50c0ab$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>> 
>>	Whois Ken McVay?
>> 
>>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>>   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
>>   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
>>   CA
>>   1-604-382-0615
>> 
>>   Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.
>> 
>>The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
>>Information
>>(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
>>Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.
>> 
>>=====
>> 
>>	The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
>>1996 and 19 August 1996.  However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
>>address still worked.  It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.  It
>>disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
>>it was false information.  The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
>>openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
>>intelligence.  
>> 
>>===
>> 
>>McVay, Ken (KM214)
>>   1B Systems Management Limited
>>   5-1601 Bowen Road
>>   Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
>>   CA
>> 
>>   (604) 758-2499
>> 
>>   kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA
>> 
>> 
>>   Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.
>> 
>>Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
>>Information.
>>All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
>>the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.

>    When you next sober up, Giwer, you might stop to realize that Ken
>    doesn't seem to care that you continually post this information.

	But, with the complicity of uunet.ca, Alec Grynapsn continues his mail
bombing.  So what is your problem with my post that?  

	Would you like copy of all 600megs fo his mail bombs in your mailbox
or simply on this newsgroup?  

	You tell me.  I would not like you to be left a doubter in this.  

	How much evidence do you want of the Mossad wetwork types that
represent the holohuggers?  Other than that the sick in the head
admire them, they are merely human.  

	So you do not like it, so what?  
	

	Wetwork is murder.  That is clear.  There are no two ways about it.
Name one Arab member of the Mossad.  None?  Thank you.  It is a Jewish
organization.  

	So what do you call wetwork for the Mossad other than murder for a
Jewish intelligence organization?

	Now look, I do not mean to single out Alec based upon a phone
conversation.  The most recent Jewish murder by the Mossad that has
made the US news was someone who picked up his C-fone and it blew his
head off,

	Members of the Mossad are murderes in the same manner that aoy
connected with the SS were murderers.
	
	They deserve no bette treatment.

	Novels, movies they all make their emotional impression but in fact
the people involved are murders or complicite in murder.

	They have no right to exist on this earth as they are no better than
those they murder.

	They exist in a "holier than thou" zone where the entertainment
fantasy holds that they can never and never do any wrong.  They are
always right.  

	Were that a valid principle we could turn over all justice to Dirty
Harry, which is the point.  Such a fantasy of a just world never
occurs becasuse it can not exist.  Humans are not capable of it.

	Any rational group would seek out those who have killed for hire and
kill them.  Better the world is without them.  And that does not
matter what side they are one at the moment.  

	They are the scum of the earth.  They are murderers.  They are not
human.  They are monster spawn of the human race. 

	Of course, after all of the above, I do wish to remind you that to the
best of my belief, Alec Grynspan is a bullshit artist and we never
involved in wetwork or even the Mossad.

	Save yoru rounds for the real ones.  







	
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:16 PDT 1996
Article: 62002 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #1
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:10:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 137
Message-ID: <50gllu$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 12:10:54 AM PDT 1996
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	DOCUMENTS 


	The standard version of events is that the Allies examined 100,000
documents and chose 1,000 which were introduced into evidence, and
that the original documents were then deposited in the Peace Palace at
The Hague. This is rather inexact.

	Robert Jackson got the trial off to a start by quoting the following
forged or otherwise worthless documents: 1947-PS; 1721-PS; 1014-PS;
81-PS; 212-PS; and many others (II 120-142 <<141-168>>). 

	1947-PS is a 'copy' of a 'translation' of a letter from General
Fritsch to the Baroness von Schutzbar-Milchling. The Baroness later
signed an affidavit stating that she never received the letter in
question (XXI 381 <<420-421>>). 

	The falsified 'letter' from General Fritsch to the Baroness von
Schutzbar- Milchling was recognized as such during the trial and is
not included in the document volumes, where it should appear at XXVIII
44. Jackson was not, however, admonished by the Tribunal (XXI 380
<<420>>). 

	The enthusiastic Americans apparently forged 15 of these
'translations', after which the original documents all disappeared
(See Taylor, Captured Documents). 1721-PS is a forgery in which an SA
man writes a report to himself about how he is carrying out an order
which is quoted verbatim in the report. Handwritten markings on page 1
(XXI 137-141 <<157-161>>; 195-198 <<219-224>>; 425 <<470>>; XXII
147-150 <<169-172>>. See also Testimony Before the Commission, Fuss,
25 April, and Lucke, 7 May 1946). 

	The National Archives have a positive photostat of 1721-PS, and The
Hague has a negative photostat. The 'original' is a photocopy (XXVII
485). 

	1014-PS is a falsified 'Hitler Speech' written on plain paper by an
unknown person. The document bears the heading 'Second Speech'
although it is known that Hitler gave only one speech on that date.
There are four versions of this speech, 3 of them forgeries: 1014-PS,
798-PS, L-3, and an authentic version, Ra-27 (XVII 406-408
<<445-447>>; XVIII 390-402 <<426- 439>>. 

	The third forgery, Document L-3, bears an FBI laboratory stamp and was
never even accepted into evidence (II 286 <<320-321>>), but 250 copies
of it were given to the press as authentic (II 286-293 <<320-328>>).

	This document is quoted by A.J.P. Taylor on page 254 of The Origins of
the Second World War (Fawcett Paperbacks, 2nd Edition, with Answer to
his Critics) giving his source as German Foreign Policy, Series D vii,
No 192 and 193. 
	
	L-3 is the source of many statements attributed to Hitler,
particularly "who today remembers the fate of the Armenians?" and "our
enemies are little worms, I saw them at Munich". 'Hitler' also
compares himself to Genghis Khan and says he will exterminate the
Poles, and kick Chamberlain in the groin in front of the
photographers. The document appears to have been prepared on the same
typewriter as many other Nuremberg documents, including the two other
versions of the same speech. This typewriter was probably a Martin
>from  the Triumph-Adler-Werke, Nuremberg. 

	81-PS is a 'certified true copy' of an unsigned letter on plain paper
prepared by an unknown person. If authentic, it is the first draft of
a letter never sent. This is invariably spoken of as a letter written
by Rosenberg, which Rosenberg denied (XI 510-511 <<560-561>>). The
document lacks signature, initial, blank journal number (a
bureaucratic marking) and was not found among the papers of the person
to whom it was addressed (XVII 612 <<664>>). 81-PS is a 'photocopy'
with a Soviet exhibit number (USSR- 353, XXV 156-161). 

	212-PS was also prepared by an unknown person, entirely on plain
paper, without any handwritten markings, date, address, or stamp (III
540 <<602>>, XXV 302-306; see also photocopies of negative photostats
>from  The Hague). 

	This is, unfortunately, only typical. Document 386-PS, the 'Hossbach
Protokoll', Hitler's supposed speech of 5 November 1938, is a
certified photocopy of a microfilm copy of a re-typed 'certified true
copy' prepared by an American, of a re-typed 'certified true copy'
prepared by a German, of unauthenticated handwritten notes by
Hossbach, of a speech by Hitler, written from memory 5 days later.
This is not the worst document, but one of the best, because we know
who made one of the copies. The text of 386- PS has been 'edited'
(XLII 228-230).

	Thus 'trial by document' works as follows: A, an unknown person,
listens to alleged 'oral statements' made by B, and takes notes or
prepares a document on the basis of those alleged oral statements. The
document is then introduced into evidence, not against A, who made the
copy, but against B, C, D, E and a host of other people, although
there is nothing to connect them with the document or the alleged
statements. It is casually stated as fact that 'B said', or that 'C
did', or that 'D and E knew'. This is contrary to the rules of
evidence of all civilised countries. Nor are the documents identified
by witnesses. 

	The forgery of original documents was rarely resorted to at Nuremberg,
because the documents were not brought to court. The "original
document" - that is, the original unsigned "copy" - was kept in a safe
in the Document Centre (II 195 <<224>>, 256-258 <<289-292>>). 

	Then, 2 "photocopies" of the "copy" (V 21 <<29>>) or 6 photocopies (II
251- 253 <<284-286>>) were prepared and brought to court. All other
copies were re-typed on a mimeograph using a stencil (IX 504
<<558-559>>). 

	In the transcript, the word "original" is used to mean "photocopy" (II
249- 250 <<283-284>>; XIII 200 <<223>>, 508 <<560>>, 519 <<573>>, XV
43 <<53>>, 169 <<189>> 171 <<191>> 327 <<359>>), to distinguish the
photocopies from the mimeograph copies (IV 245-246 <<273-274>>). 

	"Translations" of all documents were available from the beginning of
the trial (II 159-160 <<187-189>>, 191 <<219-220>>, 195 <<224>>, 215
<<245>>, 249-250 <<282-283>>, 277 <<312>>, 415 <<458>>, 437
<<482-483>>), but the "original" German texts were not available until
at least two months later. This applies not just to the trial briefs
and indictment, etc. but to ALL DOCUMENTS. The defense received no
documents in German until after January 9, 1946 (V 22-26 <<31-35>>). 

	Documents which appear to have been prepared on the same typewriter
include Document 3803-PS, a letter from Kaltenbrunner to the Mayor of
Vienna, and the cover letter from this same Mayor sending
Kaltenbrunner's letter to the Tribunal (XI 345-348 <<381-385>>). This
letter from Kaltenbrunner contains a false geographical term (XIV 416
<<458>>).


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:17 PDT 1996
Article: 62008 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!news.inc.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Always believe Russina Sources
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:57:22 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <50god2$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50926n$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50c5co$303@access5.digex.net>
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On 1 Sep 1996 10:08:24 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <50926n$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:

>[many samples of Russian evidence snipped]

>>Then there's of course human lampshades,

>    Buzzer there.  Found at Buchenwald by the Americans, confirmed by an
>American army pathology laboratory as tanned human skin. 

	In fact confirmed as goatskin and even as imitation leather, as you
know.  But they can not be retested, they vanished just like all the
rest of the physical "evidence."  

>    Physical evidence.  But of course Matt Giwer will continue to lie
>about it and say a) it doesn't t exist, and b) came from the Russians. But
>then, Mr. Giwer makes the Russians look honest, as he himself openly
>admitted in an unguarded moment.

	You know it was never found to be human and you know has now vanished.


	Anything else to save your divine little holohuggery.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:17 PDT 1996
Article: 62010 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who Stole the Records?
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:20:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <50gm7a$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3225ab28.2853848@news.pacificnet.net> <50a94s$64k@hil-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <3229a938.419407@news.pacificnet.net> 
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:55:41 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <3229a938.419407@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
>moran) wrote:

>> 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote:

>> >That's totally stupid. Some records were used for a lot of trials in
>> >Germany and elsewhere, and were often not returned, then they are the
>> >more often still in the last court. I can give some cases where the
>> >records were in another place than they were first, but could you
>> >understand such complex statements ?
>> 
>>         Where ever they are, their missing.
> 
>Well, Mr. Moran, let's consider for a moment the wit and wisdom [sic] of
>your Mr. Giwer:

>In article <5065u8$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>The very absense of physical evidence is proof that it is true.
> 
>SO since the records have vanished (lack of physical evidence), the
>information MUST BE TRUE.
> 
>After all, Mr. Giwer Says! So!

	It is good to see you agree that the absense of evidence of ZOG is
proof of ZOG.  

	I never accused you of being bright.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:18 PDT 1996
Article: 62012 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #11
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:49:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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BALACHOWSKY: There were always tattooed human skins in Block 2. I
cannot say whether
there were many, as they were continuously being received and passed
on, but there were not
only tattooed human skins, but also tanned human skins - simply
tanned, not tattooed.

M. DUBOST: Did they skin people?

BALACHOWSKY: They removed the skin and then tanned it.

M. DUBOST: Will you continue your testimony on that point?

BALACHOWSKY: I saw SS men come out of Block 2, the Pathological Block,
carrying tanned
skins under their arms. I know, from my comrades who worked in
Pathological Block 2, that there
were orders for skins; and these tanned skins were given as gifts to
certain guards and to certain
visitors, who used them to bind books. 

IMT VI - p.311. 


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:19 PDT 1996
Article: 62013 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Remember the Children"
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:22:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <50gmav$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
References: <3225acb9.3254471@news.pacificnet.net> <3226f2cb.1701137@news.pacificnet.net> <3226CC81.145B@serv.net> <32283dfc.428964@news.pacificnet.net> <3228A6A9.4247@serv.net> <3229add1.1596010@news.pacificnet.net> <3229779E.1D5A@serv.net>
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 11:46:38 +0000, Laurinda Stryker
 wrote:

>Mr. Moran: Now I'm really confused.  

	That has been obvious from your first post.  

You say that we know what 'the 
>majority' of Israelis support, based on election returns, but then say 
>that we can't know what the election results actually were because the 
>information comes from Jews.  This seems a bit contradictory to me.  
>If we can't trust the media's reports, then for all we know, Netanyahu 
>was resoundingly defeated.  Hmmmm.

	Very, very, very confused.

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Sep  3 20:10:20 PDT 1996
Article: 62038 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wagner.spc.videotron.ca!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Jewrassic Park
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:59:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
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	JewRasic Park had been seeded with a miiiion US.  It is good to see we
can indebt tuture generations for the fun of it.  After all, we do it
to pay for the medical care of our parents, who not for the pet peeve
of Spielberg>
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:21 PDT 1996
Article: 62068 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay, down by the school yard
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:18:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
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hOn Sun, 01 Sep 1996 17:24:35 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran)
wrote:


>                        [repost]
>	
>	Moran had posted recently "What is "trolling"? 	
>			
>>	I see a lot of dubbing of "troller" or "trolling" out here. What
>>does that mean? 
>>	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
>>You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling.

>	Ken McVay responded:

>"I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
>inability to use the English language properly, brush your
>teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
>manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.

>There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
>(Somehow, I doubt it.

	Remember his address is now kmcvay@oneb.nizkor.bc.ca and is part of
the US DOD milnet organiztion by his own postings.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:22 PDT 1996
Article: 62088 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: another question
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 00:47:44 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 13
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	When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against Demjanjuk for
perjury?  

	Or is that a silly question?  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62108 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Very First Extermination Accusation
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:34:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
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References: <50ek6n$190@juliana.sprynet.com>
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On 2 Sep 1996 12:33:27 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>I believe I have traced the very first written reference
>to Hitler and mass exterminations.  In the Illustrated
>London Daily News, the following report appeared:

>    Hitler Daubed with Red Paint and Placarded

>"On May 12, the figure of Herr Hitler at Mme. Tussaud's
>was disfigured.  On the following day it was taken to Marylebone 
>Police Court and three men were charged with damaging the model.
>They pleaded Not Guilty and were remanded in custody for seven
>days."

>Not surprisingly, the culprits identities were not disclosed.   What was
>written on the placard?   "Hitler-the Mass Murderer."

>The date of the occurance?    May 12, 1933!

>Mighty prophetic, I would say, but to what end:  exterminations or accusations?

	A self-fulling prophecy?  Certainly the holohuggers will have
something other than ridicule for it.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62120 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Subborning perjury the easy way
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:51:31 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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    In the Auschwitz Trial, witness Bernhard Walter, whose
testimony was not to the prosecution's liking, was placed under
arrest until he had revised his statements.251 It is clear that
such actions by the Court cannot but have intimidated witnesses.
But Lichtenstein merely fumes that despite all this some
witnesses were still so insolent as to continue to deny
everything.252 German defense witnesses for the 'criminal side'
who were willing to testify for Adolf Eichmann in the Jerusalem
trial were always threatened with arrest by the prosecution, so
that they stayed away from the proceedings.253

=====

	Another example of the kind of witnesses the holocaust depends upon.  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:24 PDT 1996
Article: 62124 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 07:54:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <50jcki$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <322b1602.11258361@news.pacificnet.net> <322b1ffc.13813088@news.pacificnet.net> <2SEP199613483113@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
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On 2 Sep 1996 13:48 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <322b1ffc.13813088@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes...
>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>> 
>>	
>>	Seems Moran has forgotten to include another challenge that he
>>made to Holocaust claims.
>> 
>>	A few months ago, a Daniel Goldhagen, Harvard University
>>professor wrote a book "Hitler's Willing Executioners" where he
>>claimed the Germans had 10,000 camps where the systematic execution of
>>Jews took place. Moran posted the report on the book from an editorial
>>that was accommodated the author in the L.A.Times.
>>	Moran scoffed at the claim of "10,000" camps and in wee time a
>>Mr.Mittleman scoffed at Moran's scoffing of the "10,000" camp
>>assertion. 
>>	Moran challenged Mr.Mittleman to list just one percent of the
>>"10,000" camps (.01%) to which the challenge was never accepted.
>>	And all Moran ask for was, one percent.  

>    It is _Dr._ Mittleman, zeyde.

	Another PhD?  Golly we are being inundated by the clowns.  
	
	Back when I asked after Keren's degree year he refused to post it as I
said that I would drop the quarter to verify it.  Since he has shown
complete ignorance of spreadsheets, I will no longer bother to drop
the quarter.

	But the offer is open to you.  Full name, degree field, granting
institution and year.  I'll drop the quarter on you.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:25 PDT 1996
Article: 62126 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 07:59:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
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On 3 Sep 1996 01:18:02 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) lies as usual:
>  
>  		
>>  	A while back a Mr.Stein posted "The Trial of Tom Moran". He
>>  bellowed he was going to show that Moran was "anti-Semitic". The only
>>  thing that ensued was one of his cohorts jumped in to say that Moran
>>  should turn himself in to some court authority. No alt.revisionism
>>  trial ever took place. Mr. Stein never made an attempt.

>	No one ever made that suggestion.  The challenge was to present the 
>evidence to an impartial tribunal.  The result of that suggestion was that you 
>demonstrated the total lack of conviction you have about your statements.  You 
>won't even give it a direct answer.

	About as impartial as the war crimes tribunals where even the judges
threatened witnesses when they do not give the correct testimony.  But
of course our gosh awful for real attorney holds that is normal trial
procedure and completely supports it.  

	With an attorney like Edeiken why not spend the $10 and become one
yourself?  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:26 PDT 1996
Article: 62129 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Grynspan says Moran's parents "incestuous pair of slugs".
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:09:36 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <322b1618.11280331@news.pacificnet.net>
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On Mon, 02 Sep 1996 17:15:27 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:



>	Mr. Grynspan's desperation directed at Moran from, "The Roman
>Empire Was" 8/4/96. One of his responses, 8/6.


>Mr. Gryspan:

>	"Odd! So far an enormous amount of physical evidence has been
>presented. It has been examined, analyzed and otherwise processed in
>great detail.

>But - that is considered "nothing else".

>Only a pedophilic rapist offspring of an incestuous pair of slugs
>would consider that much evidence "nothing else".

>Errrr - were your parents ever - nah, of course not!"
>                       ------------------

>Moran:
>	I recall when I was a kid, a child, that when some of the kids
>got into an argument, they would start to say naughty things about the
>opponents parents.

	What is interesting about the behavior of the holohuggers is that it
is the same behavior as was demonstrated at the war crimes trials.

	At the trials witnesses for the defense were threatened, insulted,
charged and imprisoned until they changed their testimony.  And the
judges and the prosecution did that to subborn the perjury that is the
only basis for the holocaust.  

	They are simply continuing the tradition that worked so well  the
first time around.  Perhaps it is simply a tradition of sorts.    

	It is rather eye-opening to have read descriptions of the trials from
the viewpoint of the prosecution.  It is hard to put them on the side
of revision.  

	Every bit of the holocaust rests upon perjury.  Suspicions are one
thing.  To have it all so clearly laid out is something else entirely.




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:27 PDT 1996
Article: 62143 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: People who never were.
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:11:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <50e7nc$qpc@viper.txdirect.net>
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On 2 Sep 1996 09:00:27 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA)
wrote:

>Archive/File: holocaust/poland wlodawa.015
>Last-modified: 1993/03/21

>              The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
>                   Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski
>                Transcribed by kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca

	What email addr?  

>        [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments]

    In several instances Oppitz and Rckerl have noted the
influencing or prejudicing of witnesses by inmate organizations
such as the Communist cover outfit VVN, the 'Organization of
Persons Persecuted by the Nazi Regime'.231 But what is
considerably more serious than the aforementioned manipulation
by the investigative authorities is the way in which the
witnesses coming to the Federal Republic of Germany from the
Eastern Bloc nations were checked out for their reliability and
even put under massive pressure, both by Eastern secret service
organizations as well as by Ministries of Justice and of the
Interior, and even during the trials by Embassies and
Consulates. They were even escorted into the courtroom by public
servants. Reliable Communists and such witnesses as were willing
to incriminate the accused were usually the only ones to be
granted permission to leave the Eastern states.232 B. Naumann
called this modus operandi of the Eastern Bloc nations
"inquisition",233 and Langbein rejoiced that in spite of this
discovery the German courts still did not question the
credibility of these witnesses.234 Further, Laternser reports
that the witnesses for the Auschwitz Trial were able, even
before the trial began, to tell their stories in the media or
even in Witness Information Pamphlets published especially for
this occasion, so that impartial and objective testimony became
quite an impossibility. As well, the witnesses were monitored by
many different organizations and persons, which also renders
their prejudicing very likely.235 As an aside, it should be
pointed out that many witnesses travelled from one trial to the
next, pocketing outrageously high witness fees as they went.236

	The influence of the constant barrage of Holocaust stories on
European, American and Israeli witnesses is demonstrated by
Rckerl on the basis of Australian witnesses. Whereas Western
witnesses can almost always make definite statements on certain
complexes of the matter at issue, investigators in Australia
usually come away empty-handed. Nobody can quite remember any
more there.237




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:28 PDT 1996
Article: 62147 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.unb.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Interesting discovery
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 02:53:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
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	The discovery is that there was no discovery  of any bodies at Babi
Yar.  Not only, aerial photos of it made shortly after the exhumation
and burning was supposed to have occurred, show no signs of the ground
having been disturbed.  

	Just like the lack of ashes at A-B, there are no bodies at Babi Yar.  

	But then, it is the lack of physical evidence that proves it must have
happened.  It is the lack of bodies that proves there are bodies
there.  It is the lack of any evidence of disturbed terrain that
proves the terrain was disturbed.  It is the lack of any sign of
burning that proves there was burning.  

	What a strange holocaust we have here.  The only thing that proves the
stories is the complete and total lack of physical evidence for the
claims.  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:29 PDT 1996
Article: 62149 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gibberish about the unidentified speaker on The Himmler tape
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 03:04:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4vr45i$g8v@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4vikjj$46u@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4vl522$hv2@news.enter.net> <4vlpen$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> 
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On Sun, 25 Aug 1996 09:59:55 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4vlpen$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:


>>         This tape is of no value to the discussion even if the speaker is
>> identified as there is no indication that this speech was ever
>> delivered or, if delivered, what words were used in the delivered
>> version of the speech.  
> 
>Mr. Giwer is getting more and more desperate these days, isn't he?
> 
>Denying the validity of the Himmler speech is reaching about as low as he
>can possibly go.
> 
>I suppose next he'll tell us that there's no PROOF that Hitler wrote _Mein
>Kampf_.

	I originally came across this "tape" in this conference as I described
it.  You are advised to look at the record to see for yourself.
Perhaps some day you will find the time to post the chain of evidence
that traces it to him as the speaker.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:29 PDT 1996
Article: 62153 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot
Subject: Re: Spielberg: how much has he given USA?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:41:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:62153 alt.politics.usa.republican:272013 alt.conspiracy:84841 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:369793 alt.politics.perot:54457

On 2 Sep 1996 20:12:13 -0400, kamamer@zot.io.org (karl mamer) wrote:

>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes:

>>   Look, are you so dense -- or in denial -- that you genuinely cannot
>> understand this?: that the fact that each and every U.S. taxpayer was
>> forced by their government to contribute "just" a few cents to
>> multimillionaire Spielberg for his pet media project is not even, IMO,
>> necessarily the main point.

>Let's consider how much money Speilburg's works (oh, like ET) have
>brought into the US? Hundreds of millions of offshore dollars
>that have generated hundreds of millions of tax dollars,
>and employed thousands. And how much has Speilburg donated
>to various charities? I know for one he gave a substantial
>grant to the SETI project out of his own pocket.

>Are you really that petty, Charles, that you will
>begrudge a man as capable as Speilburg to oversee
>a million dollar government project?

	Yes, when he knows for certain that it will be completely valueless
and in fact a continuation of a lie.

===

    Elisabeth Loftus, a Jewish-American specialist on eyewitness 
testimony, takes the opposite position, even - in fact, 
particularly - in the context of Holocaust witnesses: of all the 
categories of witnesses, she says, these are the most 
unbelievable, due to the world-wide media exploitation and the 
emotionally highly charged mood characterizing the topic of the 
Holocaust.212 Admittedly, she has held this view only since 
attending the Demjanjuk Trial in Jerusalem, where the scales fell 
>from  her eyes. In the end, this trial produced a verdict of not 
guilty, since the unreliable nature of all the witnesses for the 
prosecution had become too apparent - and this included witnesses 
who had given similar testimony two decades earlier in two 
Treblinka trials in Germany, where they had been deemed credible 
and had helped to decide the outcomes of these trials.

cf. H. Lichtenstein, Im Namen des Volkes?, Cologne: Bund, 1984, 
pp.  (Note ), pp. 196ff.

===

>Now, you say Speilburg was given a grant. Was he actually
>given the money for his own cooked up project or
>was this money already ear-marked and as a capable
>producer he was put in charge of the project?

	He is a capable producer of marginal quality science fiction of the
Hollywood genre.  He has ZERO credentials in even documentaries much
less this project.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:30 PDT 1996
Article: 62162 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: IMT #3
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:23:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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KURT GERSTEIN 

	Kurt Gerstein is often referred to as a Holocaust "witness"; however,
this is not correct. By "witness", one normally understands a person
who has seen something and who appears to testify as to his personal
knowledge; Gerstein did not do that. Gerstein was an unsworn affiant
or deponent, which means that he is simply a name appearing at the end
of a "statement" typewritten in French, which he may or may not have
written. (Document 1553-PS rejected at Nuremberg) (VI 333-334
<<371-372>>, 362-363 <<398- 399>>). 
		
	One of the stories current about Gerstein is that he wrote the
statement in Cherche-Midi prison, in France, and committed suicide,
after which his body disappeared. 

	It is far more probable that the statement was written in French by a
German Jewish interrogator-"interpreter", and that some of the
inconsistencies (such as winter occuring in August, or being in a car
in one sentence, and a train in the next) resulted from imperfect
transcription of the notes of interrogation into affidavit form. In
minor war crimes trials and Japanese war crimes trials, unsworn
"statements" of this kind are fairly common, on the theory that they
possess "probative value" but less "weight" than sworn statements. It
is also possible that Gerstein died of injuries sustained during
"interrogation" . . . . 

	This document was later extensively quoted in the Pohl Trial, where it
was "proven" that Treblinka had 10 'gas chambers' (1553-PS) and 10
'steam chambers' (3311-PS) in the same camp at the same time.
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:31 PDT 1996
Article: 62178 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:43:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 99
Message-ID: <50jj11$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <2SEP199619423735@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04  4:44:01 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 2 Sep 1996 19:42 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny
Mittleman) wrote:

>In article <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes...
>>	When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against Demjanjuk for
>>perjury?  
>> 
>>	Or is that a silly question?  

>    It's a silly question.

>    Actually, it's a troll.

	Actually you are defending deliberate and willful perjurers as the
only thing that holocaust is based upon is subborned perjury.  

>    Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest
>    is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially plausible, he
>    has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others
>    of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which
>    contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been
>    emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted
>    himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity
>    that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. 
>    For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: URL
>    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt


	Whois Ken McVay?

===

McVay, Kenneth (KM1343)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
   462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue
   Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8
   CA
   1-604-382-0615

   Record last updated on 18-Jul-96.

The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet
Information
(Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's).
Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information.

=====

	The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July
1996 and 19 August 1996.  However, as of 19 August 1996 the email
address still worked.  It was originally captured on 17 July 1996.  It
disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that
it was false information.  The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan,
openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli
intelligence.  

===

McVay, Ken (KM214)
   1B Systems Management Limited
   5-1601 Bowen Road
   Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7
   CA

   (604) 758-2499

   kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA


   Record last updated on 02-Apr-96.

Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD
Information.
All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in
the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET.


>    In fact, here's another one...

>>=====
>> 
>>There's no business like Shoah Business
>>Like no business I know.
>>Everything about it is appealing,
>>Everything that traffic will allow.
>>No where can you get that happy feeling
>>Then when your stealing

	I did not write the song. little one.   


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:32 PDT 1996
Article: 62182 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:02:29 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <50jr53$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50cufo$2lp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50gvvs$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> <50jns6$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04  7:02:43 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 04 Sep 96 17:02:29 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele
Abels) wrote:

>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>[...]
>>Must I always do your work for you?

>Yes, it would be very laudable if you finally would do your homework.

>> It is obvious that Himmler is
>>referring here to the warfare with the Partisans.

>Himmler said in roughly these words: "Most of you have seen a thousand or
>more corpses side by side. This is hard, but one has to endure it and to stay
>morally clean".

>A batallion of partisans on one spot? Strange guerilla warfare...

	No.  Combat troops had seen the thousand or so of their own and
others.  So what is your point?  

>And: "When a tank ditch has to be excavated by women and you say 'I can't
>do that, these women will die' then I will say 'If this tank ditch is not excavated
>than you will become the murderer of your own women and children'..."

>Warfare with partisans?

	Actually it was a rule of war at the time that partisans could be
executed on site without a trial of any kind.  But you know that.  

>And: "We have to kill the women and children, or else in their offspring new
>ememies of the German people will rise."

>Warfare with partisans???

	Yes.  It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather"
that women and children are to be killed in such cultures.  Are you
really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world?  Are you
really that stupid?  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:33 PDT 1996
Article: 62183 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:08:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <50jrh0$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com>  <502sor$8lf@Vir.com> <505mrj$uii@Vir.com>  <199608311622.MAA29091@vixa.voyager.net> <3229C0C8.9C7@kaiwan.com> <50ggn6$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50hcei$dfi@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04  7:09:04 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 3 Sep 1996 13:39:30 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>: 	What I find most interesting on this subject is that one group of
>: holohuggers is running off at the mouth that "everyone knows the
>: person on the tape" and another group is trying to taunt me for not
>: putting up the money to determine who is on the tape.
>: 
>: 	Holos lie out of both sides of their huggers.  

>I'm not sure how that can be considered a contradiction, Matt.  Everybody
>who has studied the tape agrees that it's Himmler.  You deny it, for 
>reasons you haven't made clear.  You've been presented with a simple
>challenge:  the tape can be subjected to voice analysis, and if it's 
>Himmler, you pay for the analysis.  So far, you show every sign of 
>chickening out.

>But that's not suprising.

	You holos are still lying out of both sides of your huggers.  I am not
impressed wtih this crap.  You holos have no idea what you are
supporting.  You post contrary to each other and you lie in support of
each other.

	You are beneath further notice.

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:34 PDT 1996
Article: 62188 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:23:09 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <50jsbq$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322C45E8.3F54@itsa.ucsf.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
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On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:51:20 -0700, Brian Harmon
 wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
>>         I hate to break this to you but there are no witches.  There are no
>> priests.  There are no rabbis.  There are only deluded people.
>> Witches, priests, rabbis and whackos are all the same, whackos.

>Mental illness is such a sad thing to watch.

>[whether or not you think religious figures are 'whackos', 
> doesn't mean they aren't actually religious figures, matt.]

	Excuse me.  I did not realize you were a brain dead, religious true
believer.  Go thy way, thy faith has saved thee.

	Come back when you can think for yourself.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:34 PDT 1996
Article: 62189 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!newsrelay.netins.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!news.ios.com!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer - privacy advocate (not!)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:25:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <50jee9$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:62189 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:520

On 2 Sep 1996 23:11:14 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>	Giwer, what the fuck did you post this stuff for? Even assuming that it
>is accurate, why? You had a feeble excuse the last time - you claimed Ken had
>hassled your father for information on you; now you have no excuse. (As it
>turned out, Ken did not make the phone call in question.)

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>McVay, Kenneth (xxxxxx)                kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA
>>   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>	Are you wishing that some slack-jawed, aggressive, slug-witted[*]
>Aryan Warrior should go to these addresses and inflict harm on Ken? (Or anyone
>at those addresses?)

	Who would harm anyone?  The only organized harm I have seen in the
news lately is by terrorist organizations such as the JDL and what
would appear to be those with holohugger motives.  He is safe from
that unless they take a dislike to his DOD connections which he now
announces in his "transcriptions" using the address of
kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca.  

	IB Systems was where his DOD listing was to be found.   

	Now that he has clearly announced that I was correct he has also made
a fool of you and the rest of his kneejerk defenders.  He played you
for a fool.  He floated a cover story of running a gas station. And
you believed him.

	Just what kind of person needs a cover story but a spook?  Have you
ever even verified his use of OBC?  How do you know who he is or what
he is?  
	
	But in any event, color yourself  SUCKER.  

>	Perhaps you aren't *brave* enough to put up with Ken's posts?

	Brave?  I have not filtered him out but he has filtered mine out.  The
coward is the one first to run.  He did.  

	He is a DOD contractor who has chosen to promote a cover story as to
what he does for a living.  Read it carefully.  He paychecks comes
>from  the US DOD.  He is a US Defense contractor.  He is a promilitary
type.  He is even not admitting it, SUCKER!  

>>McVay, Ken (xxxxx)
>>   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>	Or maybe Matt is sticking pins in a Canadian phone book and posting
>the addresses he finds that way, in a vain attempt to find Ken's address?

	I got it from milnet as you read and as he now admits.  

	If he had wanted an unlisted address he could have gotten one.  Do you
have a problem with that?  

>[*]Of course, these are all implied in the phrase "Aryan Warrior", but I
>can't emphasise them too much.

	Of course, an Aryan Warrior is what you look for under your bed every
night because you know they are coming to get you.  However the JDL is
the only identified terrorist organization playing this game and they
are holohuggers.  

	Now go away, you silly goose.  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:35 PDT 1996
Article: 62190 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Ingratitude Towards Nazi Humaneness
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:33:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <50jsuf$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04  7:33:19 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:19:34 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>I will try and look for the Burleigh book.

># You simply are not what yuo claim to be.  That makes
># you a fraud.

>Please be more specific. This is still too vague.

># Post the URL.  No gas chambers, no bodies,

>Plenty of gas chambers, Matty, and plenty of human remains.


>-Danny Keren.

	Not a one, holohugger.  You know that.  

	
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:36 PDT 1996
Article: 62193 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:44:00 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <50jtit$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
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On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 20:59:52 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <5013l3$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> On Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:34:10 -0800, kate@accessone.com (Kathleen
>> Mulhern) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4vp5lg$rqb@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> >(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>> >*Go to the website and read more than the mission statement and find
>> >*who rare the mention of anyone but jews.  Read the lesson plans where
>> >*the teaching is to focus on Jews.  
>> 
>> >Uh huh.  HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE MUSEUM?
>> 
>>         Few go to the museum many go to the website.    Sorry, if you feel
>> they are different then they are lying on their website.  
>> 
>IN other words:
> 
>NO, I haven't been to the Museum. I'm talking out of my ass.
> 
>Thought so, Mr. Giwer.

	Of course I ahve not been to the museum, dumbtwat.  

	You have not been to Auschwitz therefore you still support your
bullshit nonsense about the gassing.  That is the only reason you are
supporting it, because you can imply you were at the  USHMM but were
not at the real thing.

	It is only a lying idiot dumbtwat who would suggest that visiting a
particular museum is a sine que non for belief.  
	
	You are truly stupid.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:37 PDT 1996
Article: 62194 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: McVay and PORNOGRAPHY
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:38:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <50jpnp$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50gtv0$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04  6:38:33 AM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 3 Sep 1996 09:32:16 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Concerning Mr. McVay's remarks re:  Julius Streicher 2-PORNOGRAPHER


>Mr. McVay...I am not asking for your definition of pornography.  I
>already mentioned that in my first post.  Streicher was accused of
>being a pornographer, like Larry Flynt, or Al Goldstein of "Screw"
>magazine.  Please don't divert the reader from the direct subject.
>I asked for specific proof that this man was a pornographer, in a sexual
>sense, and confirmed by his very own publications, and or judgements
>against him on these charges in any court before Nuremberg.  Can 
>any of you provide this proof or not?

	Of course the shithead can not.  Head is only a DOD holohugger.  

	He is not very bright.  
	

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:38 PDT 1996
Article: 62195 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:06:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <50jutg$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References:  <506e8f$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>  <5094j6$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <50gkhu$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:84893 alt.revisionism:62195

On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:17:52 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca
(Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <50gkhu$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >Give me your educational beackground.  Show me your PhD in history.  Tell
>> >me about the places you've studied and with whom you've studied. 
>> 
>> My education and work experience have been posted many times.  Look it
>> up.  

>Giwer claims a four year study in Physics. That of course qualifies him as
>an expert, able to babble on about History, Mathematics, Computer Science,
>Forensics. It also enables him to lie continuously and without fail.

>[inane holocaust denial deleted]

	I had exepected an answer.  Do you have one?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 62196 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:15:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 11:03:59 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca
(Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <50glso$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>         A minor problem is the laws against speech and the press are a cause
>> for revolution.  Should Germans ever have the balls for it, I will do
>> what I can to get them the guns.  

>You are a twit.

>>         It is a very dangerous thing the German government is doing

>If anybody should have their access to the Internet restricted it is you.

	Sorry about that but people have a right to talk to each other.  And
any government that acts to prevent that is worthy only of a trip to
the wall.  Nothing more and nothing less.  

	The government saying that I can not talk to my neighbor is no
different from saying that I can not post here, or have published or
anyting thing else.  The government is no diffierent from the people
hwo enforce it.  

	That means if you show up with a gun as the goverment then you are no
better an andifidual making the same claim and enforcing the same
prohibition and are just as dead.  

	So what is your problem?  No balls?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 07:05:39 PDT 1996
Article: 62198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:06:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <50jrcm$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:15:28 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>## There is plenty of physical evidence: some of the gas chambers,
>## cyanide traces on their walls, large amounts of human remains
>## in some of the camps, numerous documents, photographs.

># Cyanide traces are everywhere.

>"Everywhere"? You're out of your mind, Matty. Seek help.

	Fumigation was everywhere, traces are everywhere.  

># No significant amount of human remains anywhere, even Babi Yar,

>In Treblinka? Over a large area, to a depth of 7.5 meters?
>In Maidanek?

	I read your post many times.  They are neither significant nor
credible.   

># three possible documents if you are paranoid enough.

>"Three"? Many more, of course.

	Sorry, only three have been posted here.  Where are you hidiong the
rest?  

># No photographs fo interest whatsoever.

>Now, now.

	Very correct..  

># Are you a vegan missing basic proteios?

>Relax, Matty. Have another drink.

	I need it after dealing with holohuggers.  You folks are like a trip
to the Twilight Zone.  

># Your jealously is overwhelming.  Why do yo not retire?

>Because there are people who are willing to hire me. Can you
>find someone willing to hire you?

	Why would I hire someone who lies about his degree field?  And if not
lying your are not qualified in CS.  Customer Service Reps have to
know more than you.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 08:51:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41913 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!news.dacom.co.kr!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tezcat!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:20:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 18:16:42 -0300, Keith Morrison 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         A minor problem is the laws against speech and the press are a cause
>> for revolution.  Should Germans ever have the balls for it, I will do
>> what I can to get them the guns.

>That reminds me, Oh Gonadless One, I'm still waiting for you to gather up the
>miniscule amount of courage you have to answer the following questions:

>1.  Why did you cut out part of one of my posts and then claim you didn't
>   do it despite the fact anyone with two neurons saw that you did?

>2.  What hominid averaged seven feet in height?

>3.  How many bones compose the skull and pelvis?

>4.  How many bones does _Gray's Anatomy_ (which *you* mentioned) say
>   there are in the skull?

>(The 1995 reprint of the First Edition, page 4 and page 19 for starters)

	I will see your claims and raise you

	How many items of physical evidence are there of the holocaust.

	You provide one and I will deal with the rest.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 09:29:06 PDT 1996
Article: 62227 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gas-tight doors
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:39:59 GMT
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On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:12:15 GMT, amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M.
McLellan) wrote:

>In article <500pqb$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>	Much has been made of the "gastight" door reference.  
>>	For those completely unfamiliar wtih the WW I / II period let me
>>explain that poison gas was used in the first and was expected to be
>>used in the second.  
>>	Bomb shelters would equipped with the best for all conditions as were
>>the troops in Iraq equipped with CBW equipment even though the
>>likelihood of their being used was minimal.  
>>	Yes, a "gas"tight door would be expected.  It would also be airtight
>>to keep out the direct effects of the overpressure of a bomb or shell.
>>	But as we notice, the usage of the term gastight is in an unclassified
>>document so there was obviously nothing "secret" about it, nothing
>>that was exepected to be in any manner incriminating.  In fact what is
>>notable about all three of these so called "incriminating" documents
>>is that they are not classified.  
>>	And it is noted that no classified documents have ever been produced
>>that can be considered incriminating.  
>>	In the real world it is quite the opposite.

>For the uninitiated, Mr Giwer is rehashing the "historian" Butz's
>latest means of explaining away the gas chambers.

	For mongoloid idiots like you, I have never read Butz.  If I have come
to the same conclusion it is because it is so obvious.  Anyone with a
minimal education should see it. 

>I'm afraid that anyone with any knowledge of Germany's civil defence
>programme in the WWII era will laugh this one out of court.

	I have seen the IMT courts and it is only the IMT courts that were
laughable and should have been executed on the spot.  

>Let's look at the evidence.

>Case 1 : the UK
>Gas masks were issued to every single person from a very early period
>in the war (in theory before the began). That means everyone, adults
>to infants. 
>Air-raid shelters in the UK were _not_ airtight. Look at pictures, do
>they look air-tight ? Are underground railway tunnels air-tight ?

>Case 2: the Thousand Year Reich
>In Germany, at no time were gas masks issued to all of the population.
>Possibly something to do with DF's belief in the "stab in the back"
>myth.
>A cursory reading of accounts of the Hamburg and Dresden firestorms
>suggests that air-raid shelters were less than air-tight.

>Can Mr Giwer (or Mr Butz or any other apologist for Nazi Germany)
>produce examples of air-tight doors fitted to shelters in Munich, in
>Essen or in Stuttgart ? If not, what validity does Butz's argument
>have ? What is Giwer's point in posting it (without even acknowledging
>it's source) ?

	What is the point of introducing obvious engineering details of this
matter?  

	It is uneductated fools like you that bother me.  Not regarding the
holocaust but the economic future of America.  Our educational system
appears to produce only ignorant fools like you.  
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 09:29:07 PDT 1996
Article: 62228 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: another question
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:50:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:55:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against
># Demjanjuk for perjury?

>Can you prove that they are guilty of perjury?

	He was not in the camp described.  Therefore they lied.  What is so
hard about that?  

>Moreover so since one of the SS-men from the camp (Otto Horn)
>picked up Demjanjuk from a photographic line-up as being "Ivan"?

	So what?  The witnesses are still criminal perjurers who deliberately
and willfully caused a man to be imprisoned for years because of their
knowing lies.  

	I know they are holohuggers but that is no excuse for lying just to
harm a man innocent of the charges.  

># Or is that a silly question?

>You're joking, right?

>Soon, you'll be asking if your claim below is silly.

	Fact is, everyone who identified his is a lying Jew.  

	Now why did they lie to condemn a man innocent of the charges against
him?  

	And when are they going to be charged with the perjury they committed
and get the time in prison they so justly deserve?  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 09:29:07 PDT 1996
Article: 62238 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:30:02 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Tue, 03 Sep 96 19:13:24 EST, scotterb@maine.maine.edu (Scott Erb)
wrote:

>In article <50glso$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com says...

>>        A minor problem is the laws against speech and the press are a cause
>>for revolution.  Should Germans ever have the balls for it, I will do
>>what I can to get them the guns.  
>>
>>        It is a very dangerous thing the German government is doing

>Do you really think a violent revolution is called for because of minor laws 
>limiting certain types of public expression?  

	Who is foolish enough to prioritize rights?  You?  Again, prudence
dictates attempting a nonviolent means first.  But also to repeat, all
rights are equal, the deprivation of any one of them is a killing
offense.  

Last time there was violence in 
>the streets in Germany, it lead to a counter-reaction, and soon left and 
>right were killing each other and killing democracy.  The result: a 
>dictatorship that limited free speech, committed a holocaust against people 
>they defined as inferior, and a war that decimated Europe and their own 
>country.  No, a violent revolution is hardly called for.

>Laws can be changed slowly with reforms.  In a democracy, one can work within 
>the system.  Also, by your standards, every state in the world needs a 
>violent revolution.  You may believe that, but it would make life pretty 
>lousy for most people.
>-scott

>"Only Love can make a Miracle of Life" - Sophie B. Hawkins

	A government slowly killing freedoms is no better than this.  It
merely puts off the inevitable.  Should it happen sooner than later
there will be less bloodshed.  

	The British colonies in America put off revolution for 15 or so years
and there was moderate bloodshed.  The USA put off the slavery issue
for 70+ years and there was major bloodshed.  

	As for every state needing a revolution, the real Thomas Jefferson
suggested a revolution every 20 years to keep a country healthy.  

	You may realize that our constitution was founded on the presumption
of patriotism over partisanship but that partisanship won within the
first few years.  Those are the facts of life.   





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 10:49:00 PDT 1996
Article: 62249 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wagner.spc.videotron.ca!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!panix!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom on Grynspan...
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:45:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
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On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 12:01:07 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         That is the difference between you and me.  When he first called he
>> got to talking about how he did wetwork for the Mossad.  Therefore, I
>> expected it.

>As far back as that?!?

>No wonder your meds aren't working so well any more!

	I regret that I can not lie to support a Mossad murderer.  Now if cash
were to come my way ... you have my address 




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 10:49:01 PDT 1996
Article: 62250 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wagner.spc.videotron.ca!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.mindspring.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom on Grynspan...
Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:28:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 01 Sep 1996 14:22:18 GMT, rackjite@worldnet.att.net (Rack
Jite) wrote:

>Havent looked in revisionism in ages, dont want to now either, its too
>depressing watching so many Jews suck up to Grynspan just because he
>is a Jew.  

>In my years of this I must say he is king of the ALL AROUND netscabs.
>No one can beat him in the Scabathelon which includes: the most
>egomaniacal asshole around, a rabic control and censorship freak, a
>pathological liar & libeler, a squealing-address posting invader of
>privacy, king of the law suit threateners, and a backstabbing creep...
>And those are his good points!  :)

>Speaking of backstabbing, has he turned on his friend Giwer -- who he
>for years claimed was neither an anti-Semite or Holocaust Revisionist
>-- and rammed the blade into his back yet like he has so many other of
>his one time pals?

>Three pieces of advice for yall; dont believe anything he says, dont
>talk to him on the phone, and dont turn yer back on the little shit.

	That is the difference between you and me.  When he first called he
got to talking about how he did wetwork for the Mossad.  Therefore, I
expected it.

	


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 10:49:02 PDT 1996
Article: 62264 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:26:07 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
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On 2 Sep 1996 12:04:08 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Without getting too deeply in this, I would like to read any of Larson's autopsies
>for people allegedly found gassed at Dachau.  

	They existed back during the trials "by reference" but were never
produced and can not be found.  He was also permitted to testify to
matters upon which he had no personal knowledge when it came to
describing the gas chambers that existed for the trials but ceased to
exist later.  

	In other words it was a typical war crimes trial that used the legal
tradition of the Inquisition -- but then I denigrate the inquisition.


As to the well fed guards, many of
>the prisoners looked well-fed also.  The majority of deaths in these camps was due 
>to disease.  Typhus runs rampant very quickly and the fatality rate can be very high.
>Concerning the bombing sorties, if you really insist, I will give you an example, but I
>will need to look it up.  As usual, you did not answer my question directly as to how
>many prisoners died after the British took over administration of the camp.  

	I will, 40,000.  And as there is not date on Keren's fat women picture
there is no way to tell whether they were burying pre or post Brit
deaths.  But then Keren knows that.  

	It is an exercise in the art of the deceptive caption.  

Do you think
>this habit of  yours and others-namely, not answering questions directly-goes unnoticed
>by the reader?

	Habit?  It is a deliberate tactic.  It is like the "self-examinations"
used on Red China.  The person charged has to speak first and is then
is supposedly ridiculed into correct thought.  The basic assumption is
that if you do not agree with everything then there is nothing you can
say that is correct and they will keep after you.  If all else fails,
they attack the spelling. 

	That is why some months ago I advised revisionists to always be on the
attack as they is the method they are using.  

	Just try to get them to commit to something.  What you will get is a
quote from someone else.  They have nothing to offer on their own on
the subject.  While they may truly be incapable of original thought in
practice, if they were to make direct statements then they would leave
themselves open to actually discussing the subject.  

	And actual discussion of the holocaust in the last thing these
neo-Maoists want.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 10:49:03 PDT 1996
Article: 62265 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:41:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <50j8bl$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <322aefd1.1482260@news.pacificnet.net>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 11:41:57 PM PDT 1996
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On Mon, 02 Sep 1996 14:31:49 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	

>	Moran had posted "What is "trolling"? 	
>			
>	"I see a lot of dubbing of 'troller' or 'trolling' out here. What
>does that mean? 
>	Hold it! Don't just post something and say 'Heres an example'.
>You have to post the example and then show that it is trolling."
>                        ---------------

>	Ken McVay, anti-hate star of the Internet and Web-Master of
>Nizkor, "A Holocaust Educational Resource", responded:

>"I am not surprised that you do not understand, given your
>inability to use the English language properly, brush your
>teeth, enjoy normal sex, or understand something if you _do_
>manage to read it. You are simply too stupid to deal with it.

>There. See if you have brains enough to figure it out, Morin.
>(Somehow, I doubt it.)"
>                        -------------
>                  
>	Moran reposted the exchange under "McVay, down by the school
>yard" and McVay popped in again, this time to add:

>"Prophetic, eh? I doubted that Mr. Moran had the brains to
>figure it out back then, and I was absolutely right. Even now,
>months later, he is _still_ too stupid to figure it out. 

>Prediction #2: Three months from now, Mr. Moron, too busy
>trying to find a hooker to take his sister's place, will still
>not have figured it out."
>                        ------------

>	So here we have this person who is the web-master of the widely
>known Nizkor, "Holocaust Educational Resource" resorting to attacking
>a family member of his opponent. Here again as with his previous out
>burst against Moran himself, he uses a sexual innuendo.

>	Sex is an interesting subject with humans. The biologist might
>state the basic function of sex is to prolifigate, and for the most
>part, in the animal world, this might be correct. 
>	But with humans it has developed into something far more complex.
>Outside of the basic union of romance, sex can be used for revenge, to
>manipulate, as a means of dominance and in many cases as an act of
>self destruction brought on by stress and self hatred.
>     This is what happened to the recent Democratic big wig, Morris,
>who was found out to be consorting with a hooker. We should ask, why
>would such a person with the position he had, take a chance on
>destroying it all?  After all there has been many other incidents
>where leaders have gotten themselves flushed for similar acts and it
>wouldn't be a matter that he was ignorant of the likely consequences.
>	
>	So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
>his opponents. Not only that, the webmaster of the anti-hate web page
>attacks the unknown family member of his opponent. Is he in some
>spiritual abyss? Seems so.   

	It is more likely the original rumors are true as to his bisexual
nature and that his co-conspirators are his current partners.  

	The really good thing about these blind attacks by the holohuggers is
if they should ever get around to their legal nonsense.

	"Mr. McVay, did you not in fact my client's sister ..."  It is quite
damaging to the credibility of the complainant.  

	



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 11:42:28 PDT 1996
Article: 62270 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:29:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <50jso5$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <3218666d.328313619@news.inetport.com>   <4vlj6l$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <32207BD5.584C@unb.ca> <4vrge8$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <3221FF6F.6B17@unb.ca> <500o7i$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3224D727.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <506796$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <841636966.13329@dejanews.com> <50h0r3$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322C471A.ABD@itsa.ucsf.edu>
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On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:56:26 -0700, Brian Harmon
 wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On 2 Sep 1996 04:03:45 GMT, Brian Harmon  wrote:
> 
>> >My point, Matt, is that 'every abandoned building' in the US
>> > differs from the gas chambers in auschwitz by many criteria,
>> > including cyanide traces.
>> 
>>         Every abandoned building in the US contains traced of some popular
>> insecticide or other.  Cyanide was the insecticide of both choice and
>> necessity on Germany during WW II.

>_Every_ abadnoned building, matt? Since when do you know jack about
>insecticides?
	
	Yes.  Parts per billion are detectable today. If they are abandoned
they are old and they have DDT which is long lived when completely
exposed to the elements and is still around in detectable quantities.
Or have you not been paying attention.  

	Or did you not know that through the 40s through 60s DDT was sold as
household sprays?  

	Are you deaf or just dumb?  

>>         In fact even if they were "gas chambers" then, given their genesis, it
>> would be highly surprising to find no cyanide traces. What is found,
>> in relationship to other samples is not out of the ordinary anymore
>> than finding traces of RAID or Max bug spray.

>Is there cyanide in Raid, Matt?  Care to provide us with the active 
> ingredients of that bug spray?

	Your ignorance of the subject is noted.  Please learn something before
you participate again.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 11:42:29 PDT 1996
Article: 62276 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Are there any non-Jew-hating revisionists?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:07:52 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <50jke5$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50fvfl$5hd@orion.cybercom.net> 
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On Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:05:11, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
wrote:

>In article <50fvfl$5hd@orion.cybercom.net> amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) writes:

>>I've been following this group for some time and it appears to me that all the 
>>revisionists who post here are overt Jew-haters.  I suppose this follows given 
>>that in order to believe the revisionist line one has to accept that there was 
>>and is a massive Jewish conspiracy involving the Holocaust.  If this notion is 
>>accepted then what are the involved Jews except evil?  

>>However, no one in this newsgroup has been able to provide a coherent version 
>>of this supposed conspiracy;  so I'm forced to conclude that revisionists 
>>are Jew-haters first and revisionists second, not the other way around.  

>>Are there any revisionists around who don't think Jews are evil or who don't 
>>hate them?  

>No, but there's a couple -- Bradley Smith comes to mind -- who pretend 
>otherwise.   His defenders will probably, once again, leap to his defense by 
>explaining that he can't be bigot because his wife is asian or latino or 
>something.

	I created the term holohuggers when the gang here used the same
argument in defense in saying that all holocaust lovers were not
Jewish, using Ken McVay as the primary example.  So you see, you have
already identified a holohugger tactic.  

	As always, the holohuggers as good neo-maoists, turn around any true
statement about them as an accusation against the person making the
true statement about them.  Yours is but the most recent example.  
	



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 11:42:30 PDT 1996
Article: 62279 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.coast.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:21:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <50js92$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50hc5d$dfi@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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On 3 Sep 1996 13:34:37 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>: 	I hate to break this to you but there are no witches.  There are no
>: priests.  There are no rabbis.  There are only deluded people.
>: Witches, priests, rabbis and whackos are all the same, whackos.  


>Yup.  He's going in for the Big Crash.  Last week, Matt asserted that
>the Hebrews never lived in Israel.  Now he tells us that priests and 
>rabbis don't exist.  The fantasy world is growing.  Reality is 
>shrinking.  

>I'd say it was time for a kotm nomination, but I think it's gone past
>that...

	I had to break the truth to you slowly.  

	Anyone who identifies with anything that is without rational
foundation is an idiot.  That includes Christians, Moslems and Jews.
They are all idiots.  But you know that.  

	Try getting over it.  There is no god(s), period.  Therefore there is
no religion.  Therefore there is nothing of interest that is in any
manner related to anything like it.
	
	Is this too hard for your to grasp?  

	Anyone who hung on to any religion for any reason and was persecuted
for it was simply an idiot.  Anyone who hangs on to any religion today
is an idiot.  

	That means that all Christians, Jews and Moslems among many others are
idiots.  All of them.  

	Why do you have such a problem grasping this?  Are you a god believing
idiot?  

	And yes, one can be Jewish by birth because of a man made rule.  A man
made rule has of tribal membership has no more value than any other
man made rule.  Jewish by birth has no greater merit than a rule
against jaywalking.  

	It is truly laughable to see all the committed Jews and those
committed to Jews supporting man made rules from thousands of years
ago as though they were something more interesting that residency
rules for voting.  

	What is a jew and where do you vote are of equal value and importance.


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 11:42:31 PDT 1996
Article: 62280 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:25:42 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <50jsgj$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50ij8q$lgq@news.enter.net>
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On 4 Sep 1996 00:42:02 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>  On 3 Sep 1996 02:46:27 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>  
>>  >	Can you explain why you claim membership in organizations which 
>>  >regularly recognize their existence?
>  
>>  	What are you yammering about now?  

>	Sure, Matty poo.  You have bragged about your memberships in 
>organizations 

	You are a liar.  I have only mentioned in my years being a member of
the NRA and the Libertarian Party.  

>which recognize that there is a religion known as Wicca which 
>describes certain of their members as witches.  They are regularly asked to give 
>presentations at their meetings and conventions.

>	Have you protested the fact that this regularly done?

	Yes you are a lying fake attorney.  

	What would really be interesting would be to find you are really an
attorney and to transmit your posts to the Penn Bar.  It would then be
up to them.  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 12:55:42 PDT 1996
Article: 62297 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!newsrelay.netins.net!news.netins.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer's Lies About Belsen Testimony
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:18:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 72
Message-ID: <50jl1k$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com
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On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:27:26 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>Matt Giwer still hasn't commented on the outright lie he posted.

>To remind:

> From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep  1 10:45:38 EDT 1996
> Article: 116072 of alt.revisionism
> Xref: world alt.revisionism:116072
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Keeping the Belsen myths going
> Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:45:46 GMT

>

>In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the
>trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and
>Oswiecim [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000
>Jews,  representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been
>gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp.

>

>This is a lie; a common type of lie from Nazis who deny the
>Holocaust - they lie and misquote witnesses, in order to make
>them appear unreliable; since there was no such mass gassing
>in Belsen, Giwer is trying to make it appear as if a witness
>said there was such gassing, in order to "prove" that this
>witness was lying.

	Of course the witness was lying.  He was testifying at a war crimes
trial was he not?  The defense was not permitted to challenge
witnesses in those trials.  Judges threatened witnesses with
imprisonment if they did not admit to gassing in those trials.  

	So what is your point?  By now everyone knows what those "trials" were
like and that they are the only basis for the holocaust legends.  
	
>Giwer can try and tell us who this witness was. In fact, a Jewish
>doctor by the name of Bendel did testify about the murder by
>gas of the Lodz Jews, but he said it took place in Birkenau,
>not Belsen, and he didn't say they were all gassed in one
>night.

>Matt Giwer is a pathological liar; the above is just one example.
>Never believe anything he says, before you check a reliable
>source. He is, plain and simple, a lying piece of scum, pardon
>my French.

	Get used to it.  The entire war crimes trial procedures are about to
be exposed for what they are in this newsgroup real soon.  

	Prepare for it.  

	Color it devasting.  Most of it comes from the prosecution.  And it is
all true.  

	Cassandra had a can opener and the worms came out.  




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 12:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 62308 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:32:17 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <50jssv$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <3218666d.328313619@news.inetport.com>   <4vlj6l$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <32207BD5.584C@unb.ca> <50cf01$mu6@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50ghd9$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50hc1o$dfi@lendl.cc.emory.edu>
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On 3 Sep 1996 13:32:40 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
anderson) wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: On 1 Sep 1996 16:52:17 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c
>: anderson) wrote:

>: >: >Any questions?
>: >: 
>: >: 	Yes.
>: >: 
>: >: 	Are you enough of an idiot to believe in witches?  
>: 
>: >Well, yeah--I believe in witches, 
>: 
>: 	Then you are an idiot.

>Hah!  I knew you would do that Matt.  I deliberately left that phrase
>at the beginning of the sentence because I KNEW you would engage in 
>high-school editing techniques in an attempt to make me look silly.

>You're so predictable, Matt.  

	As are you as you made the expected response. It was an obvious ploy.
You think you are experienced at this?  

	But you are still an idiot.  
	
=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 12:55:43 PDT 1996
Article: 62309 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: JewRassic Park
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:03:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <50k5ou$9na@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>
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	It is going to happen.

	Where is the contrract?

	Let us all look for that contracct and let us hold him to it.

	And up front we know that it is impossile to deliver and as such he is
guilty of fraud.	

	No questions asked, Spielberng lied to Congress  (a felony)  and he is
lying to all of us.  

	The pretention of ignorancd is not an excuse.



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 16:50:05 PDT 1996
Article: 62334 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer's latest tactic.
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:56:20 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <50jqpi$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <423_9608242213@tor250.org> <4vrg7v$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>  <501105$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <322453AA.EEC@gryn.org> <5043rn$ff2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <322C34FA.1A41@gryn.org>
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On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 09:39:06 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:11:54 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>         He told me he did wetwork for the Mossad.
>> >>
>> >>         What does that make him in your pea brain?
>> 
>> >Someone being libelled, Matt.
>> 
>>         Telling the truth is an absolute defense against libel.  You told me
>> that on the phone.  You discussed it in this conference.

>I'd love to see the look on the judge's face when you present that as
>your "proof" of the truth! 

>Of course, we'd have to give him oxygen first or have him breath into a
>paper bag - depending on his style of laughing himself silly.

>And you demand physical evidence because witnesses are unreliable?!?!

	One man's word against another coupled with your admission of
murdering two Americans on this conference should do it.  

	Going to sue me?  Please do.  
	
	I have been awaiting the opportunity to post the blow by blow of DOD;s
Ken McVay pressing charges and the FBI visit.  

	Your's will be truly fascinating.  

	Do not forget, I believe you are a bullshit artist and never even
lived in Israel much less were Mossad much less into wetwork as you
told me.  

	But remember that I introduced that into this conference and that you
foolishly agreed to it.  You have never denied it in any manner.  And
you konw that.

	In any event, when you told me on the phone that you did wetwork for
the Mossad, you told me that you were a murderer for a Jewish
intelligence organization.  

	I can not change what you said.  You can not change what you said.
Your handler knows that you told me the truth.  Deal with him.  You
broke the rules and you know it.  

	Live with it.  If they decide to stop a loose mouth like yours, hell,
what do I have to do with the rules you chose as a dumb kid?  

	That is the way it goes.  I can not change it and you can not change
it.  It has been said.  You could have remained quiet.  

	You do sound a bit desperate in this matter.  Are they hassling you?

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 16:50:07 PDT 1996
Article: 62335 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.unisys.com.br!rjo02.embratel.net.br!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 07:50:49 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <50jcd6$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <322b1602.11258361@news.pacificnet.net>
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On Mon, 02 Sep 1996 17:14:53 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>		
>	A while back a Mr.Stein posted "The Trial of Tom Moran". He
>bellowed he was going to show that Moran was "anti-Semitic". The only
>thing that ensued was one of his cohorts jumped in to say that Moran
>should turn himself in to some court authority. No alt.revisionism
>trial ever took place. Mr. Stein never made an attempt.

>	Eventually Hilary Ostrov, "co-Webmaster" of Nizkor said she was
>going to do some "morphing" of Moran and announced "Coming Soon to a
>newgroup near you". Nothing ever followed, even after Moran goaded her
>with a post titled from the above quote.

>	Mr.Stein's previously mentioned 'cohort', Mr.Edeiken, claimed he
>had lost 160 relatives in the Holocaust and Moran challenged him.
>Mr.Edeiken said he was going to post the proof, "I will this weekend".
>Nothing ever came of it.

>	Moran always gives the boasterous claims a few weeks, even months
>to sit so there is no question they were just mouthing off with
>"chutzpa".

>	Mr.Keren, ardent Holocaust salesman, stated he was going to post
>the patent to the Zyklon B to show it was worthy of use as an agent of
>mass mass extermination. He said he was going to post it "soon". Four
>months later Moran called him on his "soon" declaration, "How soon is
>soon?" and still no posting. Eventually it showed up in Nizkor, in
>German, scanned.

>	Now here is a another one. This one took place under Moran's post
>"The Roman Empire Was" a month ago, with Moran stating in the ensuing
>exchange: 
>	
>Moran: 8/6
>	 Holocaust eyewitness testimony is better than physical evidence.
>It has to be. There is nothing else.

>Mr.Grynspan popped in: 8/6
>	Odd! So far an enormous amount of physical evidence has been
>presented. It has been examined, analyzed and otherwise processed in
>great detail.

>Moran countered: 8/7
>	Go for it. The "enormous" amount of physical evidence - the
>"great detail" that is. 

>Mr.Grynspan tries to bluff: 8/8
>	Are you sure that you want it all? In context, of course.

>Please reply here - so that there will be no mistake that you asked
>for it.

>Moran repeats his challenge: 8/9
>Go for it. The "enormous" amount of physical evidence - the "great
>detail" that is. 

>Mr.Grynspan: 8/10
>First I notify your postmaster.
>Then I set up the bot. Don't bother setting up your kill file and
>pretending that you didn't get it.
>Do you pay by the megabyte for storage?
>It takes up 2 CD's.

>    Which clown are you - Bozo or Clarabelle?
>                           ---------------

>	Bluff. Instead of posting even a teeny weeny little bit of his
>material on the "enormous amount of physical evidence" he opts to try
>to bluff Moran by saying he has 2 whole CDs of proof. His attempt was
>to try to make it look like he has so much that it would be
>impractical and expensive for Moran to follow up on.

>	Two CDs take up over one Gigabyte, one billion (1,000,000,000),
>one thousand thousand thousand bytes. 

>	Now Moran is back to request that Mr.Grynspan post just one tenth
>of one percent (.001%) of the "enormous amount" to show he wasn't just
>blowing hot air, lying, telling a big whopper in pressing the
>Holocaust story as true.

>	Okay, Mr.Grynspan, go for it. Don't forget this exchange is
>taking place out here where you have put your mouth to the public, so
>any talk of sending it to an individual is just evasion.

>	Go for it Mr.Grynspan, just a tiny fraction of the "enormous
>amount", the one gigabyte. Just one tenth of one percent, (.001%).

	Of course he is lying.  Remember, he was in the intelligence business.
Lying is a job skill, not to mention the wetwork, i.e. murder.  

	But then his techniques here are the until oxymoron, in the
intelligence business with his intelligence?  


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 16:50:07 PDT 1996
Article: 62336 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Are there any non-Jew-hating revisionists?
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:01:08 GMT
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On Tue, 03 Sep 96 00:52:13 GMT, amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan
Matthews) wrote:

>I've been following this group for some time and it appears to me that all the 
>revisionists who post here are overt Jew-haters.  I suppose this follows given 
>that in order to believe the revisionist line one has to accept that there was 
>and is a massive Jewish conspiracy involving the Holocaust.  If this notion is 
>accepted then what are the involved Jews except evil?  

	We know from the Demjanjuk trial that Jews are will to lie to convict
an innocent man of the charges against him.  That may not be a
conspiracy but it is certainly a mind set.  

	What is your problem with that?  

>However, no one in this newsgroup has been able to provide a coherent version 
>of this supposed conspiracy;  so I'm forced to conclude that revisionists 
>are Jew-haters first and revisionists second, not the other way around.  

	There is no conspiracy claimed to the claims of the events of the
holocaust.  There was no conspiracy against witches when people were
claiming to see them fly in the night sky.  This is no conspiracy
against ritual, satanic child abusers even though people claim they
exist.  There is no conspiracy against the Greys even though people
claim to have been abducted by them.  

	Witches, satanists, abduction and the holocaust are all from the
Twilight Zone.  They all rely upon testimony and all lack physical
evidence.  Witches and the holocaust share subborned testimony.  

>Are there any revisionists around who don't think Jews are evil or who don't 
>hate them?  

	Why would anyone hate the artless and ineffectual?  They merit no
special attention.  Israel, on the other hand, is not a religion or a
religious state. 	Those who benefit from the Shoah are of all
religions as you can see from this conference.  

	So now that you have introduced yourself as a precommitted and closed
minded participant, what do you intend to do next?  



=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 16:50:08 PDT 1996
Article: 62347 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A minor question
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:37:44 GMT
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On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:51:02 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren)
wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

># Why is that didn't discover anything peculiar about
># Auschwitz until after the end of the war?

>Indeed, a minor question from a very minor person, and a lie,
>too; certainly, it was known before the end of the war what
>was happening in Auschwitz.

	From Soviet liberators only.  The Black Book is patent nonsense.  But
you know that.  

>Does this mean that it was known to each and every person in
>Europe? No; it may come as a shock to the Giwer, but there
>was no CNN then. But, did the Nazis succeed to completely
>hide the truth? No.

	Does it mean that the Soviets did not say a word about it between the
time they liberated it until after the war?  Yes.  

=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 18:55:41 PDT 1996
Article: 62406 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Trial of the Executioner of Sobibor
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:37:07 GMT
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On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA)
wrote:

>Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016
>Last-modified: 1993/03/22

>              The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings
>                   Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski
>             (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org)

>        [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments]

>                THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR
>                             Shimon Kanz


>A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors  who arrived from
>Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for
>3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada
>Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to
>Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor.
>Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution
> over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of
>the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the
>prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered
>their heads.

>In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of
>Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat.

	Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel.  

>                        SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY

>"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating
>and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender
>existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which
>I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory
>throughout my life."

	It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was
permitted a meaningful crossexamination.  

>The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow
>accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly
>exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the
>bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and
>humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during
>the work in the camp Postak.

	"Stone him.  Stone him."  

	"Jehovah!  Jehovah!"

	Stoned?  Who biblical.  But maybe he really just inhaled.  

>The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the
>"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points.

>Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered
>automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her
>delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures?
>From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering?

	She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution
for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the
witnesses.  

>        DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING

	Devilish laughter.  Melodrama testified to in court.  The evil always
laugh as devilishly as they can.  Ming the Merciless did it too.  

	Is any adult to take this seriously?  Of course not.  Only holohuggers
believe this sort of crap.  

>She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the
>Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow.

>Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons.
>They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. 
	
	And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses
of these wagons, depending upon translation.  

And
>when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The
>devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing.

	Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the
engine.  Real true holohugger fantasy life here.  And they could see
the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons.  This woman certainly
has to be paid for this performance.  

>On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons
>and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to
>begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off.

	Ah, yes, dancing.  Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt.  Very
efficient these Nazis.  

>Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her
>words shiver and only an echoe  is heard of those awful days which
>had become from day to day more terrible.

	A true whacko so far.  

>They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed
>wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the
>slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow
>took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one,
>neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers
>how long they travelled in the closed wagons.

	So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when
they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons?
This person is truly psychotic.  

>Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers
>were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the
>Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did
>not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring
>taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger
>nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon
>you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist".

	Certainly fingers were just pulled off.  

	Tell me the truth.  This was written by Stephen King, right?  

>The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and
>shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it
>will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber."

	But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it.  

	But here it is not a secret and they do know about it.  
	
	It is also an interesting speech.  Maybe it translates to a chant.  

	You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the
same testimony.  

>                     THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS

>The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened
>from hunger and thrust  pains and agony and they started
>screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp.

>The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker"
>as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what
> to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and
>gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland,
>Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did
>not understand the meaning of their shouts.

	They did not understand the shouts.  Then where did the translation of
the chant above come from?  This witness?  

>At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel:
>"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle
>of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them
>immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other
>clothes here."

	Right, bundles of clothes.  Every found a bundle of clothes.  No one
has.  
	
>Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the
>year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three
>women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his
>finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for
>profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his
>assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a
>laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and
>Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium,
>but she managed to get them out of the line.

	In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of
what happened after that point.  The gassing all her fantasy.  

>The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their
>belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few
>craftsmen were allowed to survive.

	But she has no way of knowing.  

>                 SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT

>We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German
>officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the
>laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were
>distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in
>her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you
>can".

	They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant
laundry was expanded.  

	Note here that the judge leads the witness.  A typical war crimes
tactic.  

>The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She
>feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a
>Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while
>writing every word going out of her mouth.

>The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what
>she has seen with her own eyes. 
	
	Who is it that does not want hearsay?  

But how can she not tell about the
>shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. 
	
	That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness
it.  What in the hell does the author think witness means?  

The heartbreaking
>shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning
>penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that
>they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport.

	But she was not raped.  Must have been real ugly.  

>Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday
>a transport arrived with thursty  people as it had been for several
>days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some
>to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was
>already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which
>served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the
>excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty  people of
>the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each
>other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was
>shot by the Germans.

	And all of this from what she did not witness.  Quite amazing  that
this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials.
Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted.  

>                        HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR

>The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor
>after the revolt are horrifying.

>They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last
>moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell
>about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven
>to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their
>own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the
>Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his
>arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and
>they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was
>supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place
>at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he
>ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks,
>called for the orchestra, gathered the  women and told them to sing and
>dance.

	Thank you, Steven Speilberg.  Jewrassic Pork lives.  

>This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered
>all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child.
	
	Eating sardines.  Are they not Kosher?  

>Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops.
>The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind  
>of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and
>guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and
>mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop  trees.
>Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and
>escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the
>heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same.

	Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news.


>                      THE REBELLION COMMITTEE

>Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of
>the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To
>this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul
>Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided
>revenge.

	Excuse me.  It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to
organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by
them?  

>In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives.  How
>dangerous this was!  How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use
>in order to conceal this.  Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and
>courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the
>storehouses.  The participants of this operation were divided into
>groups.  The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group
>and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the
>guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt
>the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the
>guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the
>telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make
>passage ways.

	But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough.  

>              THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED

>The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death
>enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the
>prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well.
>Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened.
>Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood
>shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this
>day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the
>hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men
>and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves
>when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed
>now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into
>the trap looking for a hiding place.

	Sobibor gasse millions.  How can the world have missed this.  

>The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes
>and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews.
>Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans.
>Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada
>Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called
>Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of
>some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew
>and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached
>the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living
>of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their
>intestines that they wished to die.

	They did not live off of them.  

>They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side
>to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission.
>It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good
>thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled
>to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall
>heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans
>flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you
>emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place."
>The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the
>question remained unanswered.

	Most likely they would have been shot for doing so.  That is the way
the holocaust works. 

=====

http://www.codoh.com/


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 21:10:23 PDT 1996
Article: 62423 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 1-Auschwitz, a secret? (repost)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 07:28:27 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 2 Sep 1996 14:15:19 GMT, Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
wrote:

>  Thanks to Alexander Baron, who revided the first page of the text to
>  correct grammatical errors

>This post is 50% based on a study from Enrique Aynat , the remaining by
>either personnal research either Butz findings.

>First of all, the usual statement that the Germans have tried to keep secret
>their extermination policy is completely ridiculous. This 'attempt to preserve
>the secret' is often used to explain why the high level German documents
>captured by the Allies refer to the 'Final Solution' as a program for the
>expulsion of the Jews from Europe.

	What you are doing well here is pointing out an entirely different
view of things at Auschwitz that is entirely contrary to the holocaust
vision.  

>The Auschwitz complex was built close to an important agglomeration. Many ci-
>vilians worked there during the day and went home in the evening. On page 62
>of his 1993 study 'Les Crematoires d'Auschwitz', the anti-Revisionist author
>Jean-Claude Pressac (who uses German documents) writes: "For the Birkenau
>cremator- ies, the Germans gave the contracts to 12 civilian enterprises [...]
>Each working site was employed between 100 and 150 workers, a third of them
>civilians." The number of ovens was growing with years with the expansion of
>the camp, and the maintenance was unavoidable. Auschwitz was critical for the
>Allies: Synthetic rubber production was important for the Americans, and it is
>not surprising that many air photo missions concerning this camp took place.
>The huge backwardness of the Americans concerning the fabrication of synthetic
>rubber after the lost of their usual source in Malaysia in 1941-42 didn't permit
>them any choice: they had to know everything about Auschwitz, and there's no
>doubt that they took measures to pick up as much information as possible. We
>know, that the Americans had broken the German military codes. Over two and a
>half years there was no mention of mass gassing in any intercept in spite of
>the Germans being unaware that their codes had been cracked.

	A quite significant point that is seldom noted.  

>But there is even more, in 'The Terrible Secret', the Jewish historian Walter
>Laqueur gives some hints in spite of being no manner of Revisionist. From him
>we learn (page 25), that Auschwitz was an archipelago, that thousands of
>inmates were frequently shipped to annex camps, mixed with civilians across
>Silesia, that hundreds of civilians were working at Auschwitz 1, that journa-
>lists were travelling freely in this region...This is the same author who says
>that there were hundreds of liberations in 1942-4, among them several Jews
>(page 169). But also there were hundreds of escapes in those years!

	Another quite different image of the place.  Add to this the aerial
photos showing a single fence and farming right up to the fence and
things start looking much different.  Imagine Schindler's list with a
shot of a farmer waving to them from the other side of the fence.  

>In 'The Final Solution', Reitlinger talks also of a a radio receiver that was
>active in the inmate barracks over a period of months. Admiral Canaris, chief
>of the counter-spying agency of the Third Reich, was a double agent. He gave
>much information to the Allies during the war, but said nothing about alleged
>mass liquidations at Auschwitz.

	From some of the holohugger writings we know that even Himmler never
heard of it.  

>There was organised resistance in the camps. Groups of communists, Jews and
>others were able to send information out of the camp. A fairly accurate picture
>of this resistance is given by the book 'Fighting Auschwitz'.

	Another very different image.  

>As stated, it was impossible for the Germans to avoid some contacts between
>the inmates and the local population. Many Poles were, indeed, members of the
>resistance, and some inmates had conversations with local populations when they
>were brought out of Auschwitz to execute miscellaneous labour tasks. Sometimes
>these civilians hid food and for the inmates. Often, the SS in charge of the
>commandos were faking ignorance about those things in exchange for food or
>gifts. (See for example Garlinski, 'Fighting Auschwitz', pages 43-5). The
>contacts with the local population were developed in such a way that letters
>and parcels could be sent out of the camp by the internal resistant cells of
>Birkenau and Auschwitz on a regular basis. A group of the Cracovia resistance
>was in regular touch via letters. In this town were preserved 350 of those
>letters, 'a small fraction of a very much more important total' (Langbein,
>'Hommes et femmes a Auschwitz', page 252). Letters successfully reached the
>Netherlands also. In spite of this, such records are used to endorse the
>extermination claim. As Butz pointed out, quoting L. Dawidowicz in her intro-
>ductory chapter (page 221):

	Quite a different view but also the kind of view one would expect if
this were a camp like any other.  The holohuggers can't really
comprehend how hard it would be to actually run camps the way they
imagine.  The man power requirements would be enormous.  And there
were better uses for them on the Russian Front.  

>   "One impediment was inadequacy of Jewish documentation in spite
>   of its enormous quantity... The absence of vital subjects from
>   the records may be explained by the predicament of terror and
>   censorship; yet, lacking evidence to corroborate or disprove, the
>   historian will never know with certainty whether that absence is
>   a consequence of an institutional decision not to deal with such
>   matters or whether it was merely a consequence of prudent policy
>   not to mention such matters. The terror was so great that even
>   private personal diaries, composed in Yiddish or Hebrew, were
>   written circumspectly, with recourse to Scripture and the Talmud
>   as a form of esoteric expression and self-imposed reticence."

	It reminds me of the story told by Asimov of the Jewish inmate who
invented a new form of arithmetic that let him do large numbers in his
head.  He was in a camp at the time and did it to relieve the boredom.
That was a "non-holocaust" type of camp also.  

>Garlinski mention also this story about the radio transmitter/receiver which
>was active over 7 months in 1942 in Auschwitz and due to its contacts, the
>direction of the Silesia local AK ceil (Armia Krajowa) was soon able to find
>the wavelength used by the transmitter. (Garlinski, 'Fighting Auschwitz', page
>126).

	Right at the time when the supposed gassing was being done at
Auschwitz.  Quite a good system of secret keeping.  

	It is also interesting that that axiom, "if two people know it, it is
not a secret," was suspended at all the gassing camps.  

>The Armia Krajowa, or the interior (or secret) army was formed in 1942 from
>a previous resistance movement. It was organised like a real army. In 1944
>the AK could count on about 300,000 members. In Birkenau there was a secret
>organisation created in April 1942 by Colonel Karcz. Contact between the
>Birkenau organisation and the main camp of Auschwitz took place on a daily
>basis. The main task of the Karcz group was to provide information to the AK
>elements outside. In 1942 the organisation of W. Pilecki, an ex-Polish officer,
>could count on 1000 members between Auschwitz and Birkenau (Garlinski,
>'Fighting Auschwitz', pages 97-8). In 1942-43 the resistant groups in Auschwitz
>were so powerful that they controlled the Hospital, the kitchens, the main
>office and had their agent in key positions.

	And out of those 1000 not one knew the secret even though they would
have obviously made it their business to know such things.  

>The activity of the resistance in the camp had a specific purpose: feed the
>Polish government in exile with exhaustive information about the events that
>were occurring in the Nazi camps. The AK could count also on the complicity of
>a few SS to transmit some messages outside (Garlinski, 'Fighting Auschwitz', pages
>206-8). But often, messages were simply transmitted with the liberation of
>inmates (Laqueur, 'The Terrible Secret', page 169 and Garlinsi, 'Fighting
>Auschwitz', pages 54-5 & 112).

>Communications between Poland and London were relatively easy for the Resis-
>tance. The general Bor-Komorowski, commandant of the AK, said that clandestine
>radio messages were regularly transmitted to London and that for the year
>1942-43-44, there were almost 300 such messages per month. (T. Bor-Komorowski,
>'The secret Army', page 150). Another source of information was the microfilms
>which were sent to London on a monthly basis. The Polish Resistance had about
>100 radio transmitters which were able to reach England. But other messages
>were brought by newsmongers who were travelling to Sweden (neutral) and then
>Great Britain.

	300 a month is better than ET ever did.  

>Recently I obtained a copy of one of the most notorious Revisionist pamphlets:
>'The Auschwitz Lie', by Thies Christophersen. Christophersen is an ex-German
>officer who had worked in one of the camps peripheral to Auschwitz: Raisenko.
>This booklet is not notorious not because one could qualify it as a big scien-
>tific contribution to Revisionism, it's just a small pamphlet where an
>officer talks about his personnel experiences, (he visited Birkenau several
>times in 1944).

>The notoriety of this pamphlet, published in 1973, is mainly due to a false
>reference that can be found: a fictive Red Cross report that is supposed to
>claim that no more than 300,000 Jews died in WWII. Because of that, 'The
>Auschwitz Lie' received immediately the status of 'Bible of the Revisionists',
>and one still finds frequent reference in European books or magazine to this
>pamphlet and this fictive reference with the development (hint as sth): this
>is the Bible of the Revisionists, it contains a lie, so the Revisionist are
>just liars and it is a good thing that Revisionist material is banned since
>the public must be protected against those lies by people who will tell them
>what they must read. What amazed me the first time I took a look at it wasn't
>the fact that this false reference was just an isolated one among several
>others that were valid, it was to see that Christophersen didn't invent it:
>he just quoted a real Brazilian newspaper that didn't check before publishing
>this report about the 'Red Cross Report'. Anyway, from Christophersen, we
>learn that SS families were able to visit the soldiers without any major
>problems in Auschwitz. We learn too that inmates from Birkenau were frequently
>shipped to other camps and could establish contact with the local population.
>This fact, as I said, was subsequently confirmed by the anti-Revisionist
>historian Laqueur.

>Now, first statement: Hoess, in his 'confession', supposedly given without
>any coercion, testified that when Himmler ordered him to establish a program
>of mass extermination in his camp (a verbal order to keep the secret) he
>received also instructions not to discuss it with Gluecks, general inspector
>of the camps, because absolute secrecy was necessary. Can you believe that?

	Holohuggers can believe anything. 




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 21:10:24 PDT 1996
Article: 62424 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 2-Auschwitz, a secret? (Repost)
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 07:45:05 GMT
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On 2 Sep 1996 14:16:40 GMT, Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
wrote:


>   We will take a look now at the usual propaganda over the war. The american
>   Arthur Butz, especially, was the first to do an exhaustive inquiry about
>   it. What is clear from his review of american newspapers is that the
>   propaganda about mass extermination started as sson as 1942. 

	1933 regarding Hitler as in today's postings.  

It was
>   mainly statements made by zionist officials, Chaim Weizman among others,
>   that were often related to an appeal for the opening of Palestine to
>   jewish immigration. Several camps or atrocities are mentionned, Belzec,
>   Chelmo, Sobibor, Treblinka, and the accusations take miscellaneous forms:
>   jews who are shot, report about mass electrocution of jews in Belzec,
>   gasing methos in Treblinka, poison, sometimes the use of wagons were
>   lethal gas is used. It looks like the usual scrap that any war is
>   normally generating: propaganda. Several of those accusations were drop
>   after the war.

	But not before they were used to get convictions at the war crimes
trials.  

>      I was able to find recently a rare book: 'the black book of the polish
>    jewry', publish at the end of 1943. This book is totally consistent
>    with the war propaganda that can be found in the newspapers: Chelmo,
>    Treblinka, story of atrocities, in some cases details: 250 jewish
>    children allegedly killed in a jewish sanatorium, elsewhere 50 jews
>    executed in a township, the book is a collection of war propaganda,
>    probably a mix of thruth an falsehoods, an over few hundreds pages
>    we have an idea of what kind of stories were used by several jewish
>    organisations which had their large network of informant across
>    Europe. Nowhere Auschwitz is mention, despite the mass gasing of jews
>    is supposed to have start in the spring of 1942. The index, that contains
>    a large amount of places were atrocities are allegedly comitted,
>    do not contain the name of Auschwitz. Several minor stories, but
>    nothing about the gasing of hundreds of thousand of jews there.

	An in light of your previous post about the information coming out of
the camp this is clearly nonsense.  

>        Enrique Aynat made a deep inquiry with the review published
>    by the polish government in exile in London, the 'Polish fighting
>    review'. It is similar stuff. Several stories about atrocities
>    against jews were put in circulation by this review ( the informations
>    were received in the same way that what was explained earlier, from
>    the A.K.) but Auschwitz appear just few times before 1945. But
>    there's more: when it appear, it is not in connection with mass
>    gasing of jews. It is about case of torture, hard work, the
>    tough conditions of the inmates who have to work for the military
>    production. An example of that can be find in the 1 july 1942 article
>    (n0 47) where it is mention that the German use syringue to kill
>    prisonners of Bikernau. There's a base of thruth: the method
>    was at least used for the dying prisonners who were affect by the
>    catastrophic typhus epidemy of 1942, but there's no evidence that
>    it was use to liquidate them because of an extermination policy:
>    euthanasy was the real purpose. In several other articles during
>    2 years, very 'low level' details about some inmates who died
>    are given, and in a case it is say that few hundred russian
>    prisonners were gased at a specific date. What is astonishing here
>    is that over 2 years and a half, the systematic murder of hundreds
>    of thousands of jews seems to be ignored while the polish resistance
>    is suppose to be aware of a single gasing of russian pows at a time.
>    There is also a reference to the gasing of polish childrens at the end of
>    1943, despite today we never speak about the gasing of poles. But
>    among the huge amount of propaganda that was published over those
>    years, this is all. Before the mid 1944, the atrocities were generally
>    not concerning Auschwitz and when it was th case, the mass gasing
>    of jews was not mention. I said a couple of weeks ago that perhaps
>    I saw once such a story, but I'm unsure if I've not dream it.

>       The story about the mass gasing of jews in Auschwitz began
>    really in the summer of 1944 in the allied newspapers, and then we
>    can say that the persons who were spreading the atrocities stories
>    had no choice: the other camps were shut down several months before.

>      First remark: such stories are not 'a proof' of mass gasing,
>    simply because propaganda and false accusations were always a
>    part of war, and second because those accusations were made
>    in connection with a call to allied countries for negotiations
>    with germans. The zionist leaders of that time had clearly an objective
>    in the mind: put pressure on the British and force them to allow
>    the opening of the Palestine borders to jewish immigration.
>    Israel was not existing yet, and the arabs were the majority there.
>    Several declarations in the newspapers let no ambiguity about it.

>      Second remark: the real problem is that it is hard to believe that
>    such mounstruous events, the gasing of hundreds of thousand of jews
>    over 2 years, could be absent of publications like the 'black book
>    of the Polish jewry' while minor stories about the executions of
>    50 jews in a small township are present. That book was publish
>    expresselly for the sake of propaganda, to talk exhaustivelly about
>    the anti jewish persecutions. And it is not because Auschwitz was
>    'secret'. We can have a clear indication of that with the anti-revisionnist
>    author Martin Gilbert in 'Auschwitz and the allied', p 340. After
>    an exhaustive review of the documentation, he conclude that Auschwitz
>    was absent of the war propaganda before the mid 1944.
>    There it's like to say that events like those that happend in
>    Rwanda did exist over 2 years but that despite information was
>    collected on a daily based by A.K. agents in Bikernau and Auschwitz 1,
>    nobody seem aware of it. Imagine 2 Rwandas over 2 years and nobody
>    within that country noticed anything during this period except
>    at the end.

>      Third remark: such an absence of propaganda would be more acceptable
>    for camps like Belzec, simply because those one were isolated,
>    there was not an important towniship beside, there was not hundreds
>    of civilians who worked there, inmates were not frequently reshiped
>    in the vicinity of the camps and able to have contact with civilians,
>    Belzec was not of any strategical importance for the american
>    since it hadn't any Buma plan industry: the inmates were suppose
>    to arrive there and to be killed quickly, nothing else.
>    But what we have in the WWII propaganda is the opposite: no possible
>    secret for Auschwitz, but it is there that an unexplanable silence
>    was keepen. It must be say also that according to the post war
>    confessions, Auschwitz was suppose to be the 'metropol' of the
>    extermination, the main camp. At Nuremberg, the bulk of the
>    extermination story was built on Auschwitz.

>      Fourth remark: The story about the 'revelation of the secret' is
>    of an uncommensurable absurdity. The WRB report, published in 1944,
>    is suppose to be an accurate description of the nature of Auschwitz.
>    The american press revealed that 2 inmates escaped and were able to go
>    in Switzerland to give a very accurate description of the gassing
>    procedure and the installations in Auscwitz. The authors of the WRB
>    report stayed anonymous during 16 years despite it had be more credible
>    to present those ones immediatelly.

>    They stayed anonymous for 16 years and the jewish
>    writter Reitlinger was a bit bothered in the first edition of the final
>    solution about this fact but those ones were produced before the
>    second edition of his book 150 miles away from his Sussex domicile
>    (London). Rudolph Vrba, author of a best seller a bit later, 'I
>    cannot forgive'. Vrba is suppose to had the false identity of Walter
>    Rosenberg in Auschwitz despite he wrote that the other inmates called
>    him 'Rudi'.

>   Several, a lot of contradictions exist in Vrba's 'memories',
>   and Alexander Baron talk about it in the book he wrote. Vrba
>   affirmations were so contradictory that he was obligated to admit
>   that he lied at the Zundel trial. Just those contradictions could take
>   few hundreds lines.

>    Let say just that when I read Vrba's book, I saw that his escape
>   had a specific purpose: give a warn to the whole world about the fate
>   of the jews in Auschwitz, 'breaking the secret' in other words. One
>   have just to read the previous message to realize that it is ridicoulous.
>   There was hundreds of escapes and liberations before him
>   Despite the inconsistences in his testimony, Vrba's credibility is
>   essantial. The defenders of the legend can conceed that an obscur
>   eye witness could have lie, but Vrba is a kind of detonnator, a domino:
>   since he talk about his entertainment with F. Muller at the camp, since
>   the key eyewitness Sonderkommando F. Muller said also that he spoke
>   with Vrba several times in Auschwitz, if one of the testimony is false,
>   the other collapse. If Vrba testimony is false, then one would have
>   to explain why the real authors of the WRB report never challendge
>   Vrba's story.  And then we would conclude that the WRB report wasn't
>   writen by  an ex-inmate but by higher rank propagandist who had a large
>   amount of datas available: this is where the story began.


=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Sep  4 23:30:17 PDT 1996
Article: 62455 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:55:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 59
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On Mon, 2 Sep 1996 09:57:49, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
wrote:

>In article <322af2ea.2274773@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes:


>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>>
>>>       Having left in Nizkor's footer, I canceled the first posting of
>>>this, but not before this response appeared, which was only a matter
>>>of 4 minutes. Since I canceled that one and the resoponse was
>>>attached, I am reposting it under this corrected version.
>>>
>>>In article <322aecae.678982@news.pacificnet.net> tm@pacificnet.net
>>>(tom moran) writes:
>>>
>>>>        So here we have McVay, using little sexual innuendos to attack
>>>>his opponents. Not only that, the webmaster of the anti-hate web page
>>>>attacks the unknown family member of his opponent. Is he in some
>>>>spiritual abyss? Seems so.   
>>>
>>>Nah.  Just sounds like he's irritated with your lies and idiocy.  
>>>
>>>                                          Joel Rosenberg

>>        So here we have this Rosenberg endorsing McVay's lashing out at a
>>family member of his opponent. It was only four minutes from the time
>>I posted the article. It would take, say, at least a minute before it
>>got to Rosenberg, he would read it, another minute, and then with
>>haste, he typed in his firey endorsement, and a minute to return.

>>        Too bad neither he or McVay can respond directly. If they could,
>>one would expect they would, but they didn't, so they can't. 
>>        How wimpy.

>If you're offended at being put down, go away.  Or sober up.  Or buy a clue.  
>Or live with it.

	And of course the objective is to drive people away rather than
discussion the holocaust.  But then people are invited here by the
holohuggers for discussion, are they not?  

	Of course not.  That lie has been exposed often enough by the
holohuggers themselves,  Add yourself to the list of those who have
exposed the holohugger lie.  




=====

There's no business like Shoah Business
Like no business I know.
Everything about it is appealing,
Everything that traffic will allow.
No where can you get that happy feeling
Then when your stealing



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep  5 07:29:02 PDT 1996
Article: 62478 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:52:33 GMT
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On 3 Sep 1996 16:40:23 GMT, chall@eco.twg.com (Charles Don Hall)
wrote:

>In article <50h2h9$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On 2 Sep 1996 08:36:39 GMT, joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>>
>>>In <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net>  writes: 
>>>>
>>>>>joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) wrote:
>>
>>>>>  Ms. "Mulhern"'s essential argument, based on her unrelenting
>>>>>refrain
>>>>>(obsession?) that the $1 million of U.S. taxpayer money that the
>>>>>reported Clinton fundraiser, multimillionaire Hollywood mogul Stephen
>>>>>Spielberg, was given amounts to just a penny-per-taxpayer (she said
>>>>>$.25 in her earlier posts, but who's counting?) seems to be this:
>>>>>
>>>>Look, can you count? $1 million divided by taxpayers in the U.S. would
>>>>be a lot less than both her calculations. Do you have a calculator?
>>
>>>  Look, are you so dense -- or in denial -- that you genuinely cannot
>>>understand this?: that the fact that each and every U.S. taxpayer was
>>>forced by their government to contribute "just" a few cents to
>>>multimillionaire Spielberg for his pet media project is not even, IMO,
>>>necessarily the main point.
>>	
>>	Every citizen what no forced to contribute.  Every citizen was force
>>to go into a deeper national debt for this million dollars.  It is
>>only when there is a budget surplus that anyone can talk about
>>contributing to anything.  

>You two are seriously confused about the nature of government.

>Here in the US, the government is elected by the people. The 
>government doesn't force us to pay for projects we don't want.
>We (that is, we-the-people-as-a-whole) want these projects,
>and that's why we consistently vote for politicians who support
>them. 
	
	My website carries a guest editorial by Davy Crokett.

	To wit ...




"NOT YOURS TO GIVE"

from: The Life of Colonel David Crockett
compiled by: Edward S. Ellis (Philadelphia, Porter & Coates, 1884).

      One day in the United States house of Representatives, a bill was taken up appropriating money for the benefit of a widow of a distinguished naval officer. Several beautiful speeches had been made in its support. The Speaker was just about to put the question when David Croquet arose:
      "Mr. Speaker -- I have as much respect for the memory of the deceased, and as much sympathy for the sufferings of the living, if suffering for the sufferings of the living, if suffering there be, as any man in this House, but we must not permit our respect for the dead or our sympathy for a part of the living to lead us into an act of injustice to the balance of the living. I will not go into an argument to prove that Congress has no power to appropriate this money as an act of charity. Every member upon this floor knows it. We have the right, as individuals, to give away as much of our own money as we please in charity; but as members of Congress we have no right so to appropriate a dollar of the public money. Some eloquent appeals have been made to us upon the ground that it is a debt due the deceased. Mr. Speaker, the deceased lived long after the close of the war; he was in office to the day of his death, and I have never heard that the government was in arrears to him.
      "Every man in the House knows it is not a debt. We cannot, without the grossest corruption, appropriate this money as the payment of a debt. We have not the semblance of authority to appropriate it as a charity. Mr. Speaker, I have said we have the right to give as much money of our own as we please. I am the poorest man on this floor. I cannot vote for this bill, but I will give one week's pay to the object, and if every member of Congress will do the same, it will amount to more than the bill asks."
      He took his seat. Nobody replied. The bill was put upon its passage, and, instead of passing unanimously, as was generally supposed, and as, no doubt, it would, but for that speech, it received but few votes, and of course, was lost.
      Later, when asked by a friend why he had opposed the appropriation, Crockett gave this explanation:
      "Several years ago I was one evening standing on the steps of the Capitol with some other members of Congress, when our attention was attracted by a great light over in Georgetown. It was evidently a large fire. We jumped into a hack and drove over as fast as we could. In spite of all that could be done, many house were burned and many families made houseless, and besides, some of them had lost all but the clothes they had on. The weather was very cold, and when I saw so many women and children suffering, I felt that something ought to be done for them. The next morning a bill was introduced appropriating $20,000 for their relief. We put aside all other business and rushed it through as soon as it could be done.
      "The next summer, when it began to be time to think about the election, I concluded I would take a scout around among the boys of my district. I had no opposition there, but as the election was some time off, I did not know what might turn up. When riding one day in a part of my district in which I was more of a stranger than any other, I saw a man in a field plowing and coming toward the road. I gauged my gait so that we should meet as he came to the fence. As he came up, I spoke to the man. He replied politely, but, as I thought, rather coldly.
      "I began: 'Well, friend, I am one of those unfortunate beings called candidates and --'
      " 'Yes, I know you; you are Colonel Crockett. I have seen you once before, and voted for you the last time you were elected. I suppose you are out electioneering now, but you had better not waste your time or mine. I shall not vote for you again.'
      "This was a sockdolager ... I begged him to tell me what was the matter.
      "' Well, Colonel, it is hardly worthwhile to waste time or words upon it. I do not see how it can be mended, but you gave a vote last winter which shows that either you have not capacity to understand the Constitution, or that you wanting the honesty and firmness to be guided by it. In either case you are not the man to represent me. But I beg your pardon for expressing it in that way. I did not intend to avail myself of the privilege of the constituent to speak plainly to a candidate for the purpose of insulting or wounding you. I intended by it only to say that your understanding of the Constitution is very different from mine; and I will say to you what, but for my rudeness, I should not have said, that I believe you to be honest ... But an understanding of the Constitution different from mine I cannot overlook, because the Constitution, to be worth anything, must be held sacred, and rigidly observed in all its provisions. The man who wields power and misinterprets it is the more dangerous the more honest he is.'
      "'I admit the truth of all you say, but there must be some mistake about it, for I do not remember that I gave any vote last winter upon any constitutional question.'
      " 'No, Colonel, there's no mistake. Though I live here in the backwoods and seldom go from home, I take the papers from Washington and read very carefully all the proceedings of Congress. My papers say that last winter you voted for a bill to appropriate $20,000 to some sufferers by a fire in Georgetown. is that true?'
      "'Well, my friend; I may as well own up. You have got me there. But certainly nobody will complain that a great and rich country like ours should give the insignificant sum of $20,000 to relieve its suffering women and children, particularly with a full and overflowing Treasury, and I am sure, if you had been there, you would have done just as I did.'
      " 'It is not the amount, Colonel, that I complain of; it is the principle. In the first place, the government ought to have in the Treasury no more than enough for its legitimate purposes. But that has nothing to do with the question. The power of collecting and disbursing money at pleasure is the most dangerous power that can be entrusted to man, particularly under our system of collecting revenue by a tariff, which reaches every man in the country, no matter how poor he may be, and the poorer he is the more he pays in proportion to his means. What is worse, it presses upon him without his knowledge where the weight centers, for there is not a man in the United States who can ever guess how much he pays to the government. So you see, that while your are contributing to relieve one, you are drawing it from thousands who are even worse off than he. If you had the right to give anything, the amount was simply a matter of discretion with you, and you had as much right to give $2,000,000 as $20,000. If you have the right to give to one, you have the right to give to all; and, as the Constitution neither defines charity nor stipulates the amount, you are at liberty to give to any and everything which you may believe, or profess to believe, is a charity, and to any amount you may think proper. You will very easily perceive what a wide door this would open for fraud and corruption and favoritism, on one hand, and for robbing the people on the other. No. Colonel, Congress has no right to give charity. Individual members may give as much of their own money as they please, but they have no right to touch a dollar of the public money for that purpose. If twice as many houses had been burned in this county as in Georgetown, neither you nor any other member of Congress would have thought of appropriating a dollar for our relief. There are about two hundred and forty members of Congress. If they had shown their sympathy for the sufferers by contributing each one week's pay, it would have made over $13,000. There are plenty of wealthy men in and around Washington who could have given $20,000 without depriving themselves of even a luxury of life. The congressmen chose to keep their own money, which, if reports be true, some of them spend not very creditably; and the people about Washington, no doubt, applauded you for relieving them from the necessity of giving by giving what was not yours to give. The people have delegated to Congress, by the Constitution, the power to do certain things. To do these, it is authorized to collect and pay moneys, and for nothing else. Everything beyond this is usurpation, and a violation of the Constitution.
      " 'So you see, Colonel, you have violated the Constitution in what I consider a vital point. It is a precedent fraught with danger to the country, for when Congress once begins to stretch its power beyond the limits of the Constitution, there is no limit to it, and no security for the people. I have no doubt you acted honestly, but that does not make it any better, except as far as you are personally concerned, and you see that I cannot vote for you.'
      "I tell you I felt streaked. I saw if I should have opposition, and this man should go talking, he would set others to talking, and in that district I was a gone fawn-skin. I could not answer him, and the fact is, I was so fully convinced that he was right, I did not want to. But I must satisfy him, and I said to him:
      " 'Well, my friend, you hit the nail upon the head when you said I had not sense enough to understand the Constitution. I intended to be guided by it, and thought I had studied it fully. I have heard many speeches in Congress about the powers of Congress, but what you have said here at your plow has got more hard sound sense in it than all the fine speeches I ever heard. If I had ever taken the view of it that you have, I would have put my head into the fire before I would have given that vote; and if you will forgive me and vote for me again, if I ever vote for another unconstitutional law I wish I may be shot.'
      "He laughingly replied: 'Yes Colonel, you have sworn to that once before, but I will trust you again upon one condition. You say that you are convinced that your vote was wrong. Your acknowledgment of it will do more good than beating you for it. If, as you go around the district, you will tell people about this vote, and that your are satisfied it was wrong, I will not only vote for you, but will do what I can to keep down opposition, and, perhaps, I may exert some little influence in that way.'
      " 'If I don't, said I, 'I wish I may be shot; and to convince you that I am in earnest in what I say I will come back this way in a week or ten days, and if you will get up a gathering of the people, I will make a speech to them. Get up a barbecue, and I will pay for it.'
      " 'No, Colonel, we are not rich people in this section, but we have plenty of provisions to contribute for a barbecue, and some to spare for those who have none. The push of crops will be over in a few days, and we can then afford a day for a barbecue. This is Thursday; I will see to getting it up on Saturday week. Come to my house on Friday, and we will go together, and I promise you a very respectable crowd to see and hear you.'
      " 'Well, I will be here. But one thing more, before I say good-bye. I must know your name.'
      " 'My name is Bunce.'
      " 'Not Horatio Bunce?'
      " 'Yes.'
      " 'Well, Mr. Bunce, I never saw you before, though you say you have seen me, but I know you very well. I am glad I have met you, and very proud that I may hope to have you for my friend.'
      "It was one of the luckiest hits of my life that I met him. He mingled but little with the public, but was widely know for his remarkable intelligence and incorruptible integrity, and for a heart brimful and running over with kindness and benevolence, which showed themselves not only in word but acts. He was the oracle of the whole country around him, and his fame had extended far beyond the circle of his immediate acquaintance. Though I had never met him before, I had heard much of him, and but for this meeting it is very likely I should have had opposition, and had been beaten. One thing is very certain, no man could now stand up in that district under such a vote.
      "At the appointed time I was at his house, having told our conversation to every crowd I had met, and to every man i stayed all night with, and I found that it gave the people an interest and a confidence in me stronger than I had ever seen manifested before.
      "Though I was considerably fatigued when I reached his house, and under ordinary circumstances, should have gone early to bed, I kept him up until midnight, talking about the principles and affairs of government, and got more real, true knowledge of them than I had got all my life before.
      "I have know and seen much of him since, for I respect him -- no, that is not the word -- I reverence and love him more than any living man, and I go to see him two or three times every year; and I will tell you, sir, if every one who professes to be a Christian lived and acted and enjoyed it as he does, the religion of Christ would take the world by storm.
      "But to return to my story. The next morning we went to the barbecue, and to my surprise, found about a thousand men there. I met a good many whom I had not know before, and they and my friend introduced me around until I had got pretty well acquainted -- at least, they knew me.
      "In due time notice was given that I would speak to them. They gathered up around a stand that had been erected. I opened my speech by saying:
      " 'Fellow-citizens -- I present myself before you today feeling like a new man. My eyes have lately been opened to truths which ignorance or prejudice, or both, had heretofore hidden from my view. I feel that I can today offer you the ability to render you more valuable service than I have ever been able to render before. I am here today more for the purpose of acknowledging my error than to seek your votes. That I should make this acknowledgment is due to myself as well as to you. Whether you will vote for me is a matter for your consideration only.'
      "I went on to tell them about the fire and my vote for the appropriation and then told them why I was satisfied it was wrong. I closed by saying:
      " 'And now, fellow-citizens, it remains only for me to tell you that the most of the speech you have listened to with so much interest was simply a repetition of the arguments by which your neighbor, Mr. Bunce, convinced me of my error.
      " 'It is the best speech I ever made in my life, but he is entitled to the credit for it. And now I hope he is satisfied with his convert and that he will get up here and tell you so.'
      "He came up on the stand and said:
      " 'Fellow-citizens -- it affords me great pleasure to comply with the request of Colonel Crockett. I have always considered him a thoroughly honest man, and I am satisfied that he will faithfully perform all that he has promised you today.'
      "He went down, and there went up from that crowd such a shout for Davy Crockett as his name never called forth before.
      "I am not much given to tears, but I was taken with a choking then and felt some big drops rolling down my cheeks. And I tell you now that the remembrance of those few words spoken by such a man and the honest hearty shout they produced is worth more to me than all the honors I have received and all the reputation I have ever made, or ever shall make, as a member of Congress.
      "Now, sir," concluded Crockett, "you know why I made that speech yesterday.
      "There is one thing now to which I will call your attention. You remember that I proposed to give a week's pay. There are in that House many very wealthy men -- men who think nothing of spending a week's pay, or a dozen of them, for a dinner or a wine party when they have something to accomplish by it. Some of those same men made beautiful speeches upon the great debt of gratitude which the country owed the deceased -- a debt which could not be paid by money -- and the insignificance and worthlessness of money, particularly so insignificant a sum as $10,000, when weighed against the honor of the nation. Yet not one of them responded to my proposition. Money with them is nothing but trash when it is to come out of the people. But it is the one great thing for which most of them are striving, and many of them sacrifice honor, integrity, and justice to obtain it." ----- If you got this far you know there is a difference between the consitution and policy. The government has no right to policy as it is not granted in the constitution. The government has no delegated powers outside of Article 1, Section 8, period. Anything beyond those powers is revolutionary material. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:03 PDT 1996 Article: 62492 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!news.zeitgeist.net!bdt.com!hal.COM!nntp-sc.barrnet.net!ratatosk.yggdrasil.com!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A minor question Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:36:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <50jij1$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fsoc$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <2SEP199619395504@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04 4:36:33 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 2 Sep 1996 19:39 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <50fsoc$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >> Why is that didn't discover anything peculiar about Auschwitz until >>after the end of the war? > I dunno... maybe it was becaust THERE WAS A WAR GOING ON!!!!! Once again I have made the mistake of thinking that holohuggers are familiar with the subject. Please explain the lack of Soviet discoveries from the time they liberated Auschwitz until after the war. That is Soviet discoveries only, not Black Book stories. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:04 PDT 1996 Article: 62498 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Parades His Ignorance and Foolishness: Diesel Engines Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 07:39:58 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <50m053$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <313_9609040758@tor250.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 12:40:19 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 04 Sep 96 07:39:18, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote: ><*[*] [*] [Danny Mittleman] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +> ><+[Re: Giwer Parades His Ignorance and Foolishness: Diesel Engines] [Tuesday >September 03 1996 10:25][*][0]*> > >> Of course, after all of the above, I do wish to remind you > >> that to the best of my belief, Alec Grynspan is a bullshit > >> artist and we never involved in wetwork or even the Mossad. > DM> Ah yes. So it was all just libel on your part... So Alec > DM> got to you > DM> just the way he said he would and turned you into a > DM> blubbering idiot? > DM> Well, those men in the white van will be here soon now... >Notice that when I tell him that I was virtually a babe-in-arms when >I became a mascot and "junior member" of the Mossad and deny any >"wetwork" (outside of a little plumbing around the house), this >becomes me being a bullshit artist. If you deny wet work now why did you claim it on the phone? But then you were a member of a murderous organization which makes you as guilty of murder as a camp guard for the SS. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:05 PDT 1996 Article: 62502 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:03:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50m1gv$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <841759139snz@drmac.demon.co.uk> <322c52fb.11071821@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <50jg9j$g04@jupiter.nowcom.com> <322d937a.7837028@news.pacificnet.net> <322dc10f.1291341@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:03:43 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:272959 alt.conspiracy:85225 alt.revisionism:62502 alt.society.conservatism:51381 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:370550 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28482 alt.politics.perot:54592 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:56:43 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > During the Gulf "war" there was a lot of crowing about how >popular it was in America. The papers were claiming Bush was a shoe in >for re-election. > Any support was called simply "Support the Troops", none of it >focusing on any cause. > Even during the "Support the Troops" parade in Hollywood, the >grand marshall made a point it wasn't to support the cause. (He >probably caught some flack from the dominant influence there.) > At any demonstrations the standard ratio was less than a hundred >for the war, and thousands against the war. The ones for it in L.A. >were half JDL foaming at the mouth. > In the press, N.Y. and L.A. Times, there appeared 45 columns >egging the country on to war. Of the 45, 42 were Jewish writers. Since >then many goyims who used to write for Israel have backed off. Now it >is almost only the Jews, all by their lonesome. And the other three were part of the amen corner. But realize that they were being used by Bush as part of the Reagan-Bush strategy to bring down the Soviet Union, and it worked. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:05 PDT 1996 Article: 62513 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Kan Kleim Klean up his act? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:34:41 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50m3bn$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <508150$4e@jerry.loop.net> <50chbi$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50gn0o$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50itvg$e31@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <50kda3$klu@jerry.loop.net> <50kgaa$sr4@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:35:03 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28484 alt.politics.white-power:42018 alt.revisionism:62513 On 4 Sep 1996 18:03:54 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >CHRIST SODOMIZER (goat@anus.com) wrote: >: Actually, Bob, from what I've seen here the people being called >: 'revisionists' are not making nearly as many personal attacks as the >: people I'll call 'defenders of the Jewish victim-theory' for lack of >: better designation. >It depends, of course, on what you consider a personal attack. Ever >since Mr. Stele claimed that revisionists never, ever engage in name >calling, I've made a point of calling attention to the many, many >instances when they have. It's been a demanding job--there are so >many of them. In my opinion, Matt Giwer all by himself outdoes the >entire "holohugger" team. That is because, without cause, I was libelled in a manner that is worthy of being answered in blood. And you must remember that blood libels justify any response. But you know that. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:06 PDT 1996 Article: 62514 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:38:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 78 Message-ID: <50m3ir$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net> <3SEP199621041619@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322d7eed.2575543@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:38:51 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:07:55 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >>Marty Kelley writes... >>>On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote: >> >>>> If one of your students should turn in a paper with revisionistic >>>> views, how would you grade him? >>> >>>That's a fascinating question, and it's one which I often ask my classes >>>to consider. I haven't encountered such a situation, because I've been >>>lucky enough to have mostly sane students. Every semester, I introduce the >>>assignment on argument and research by discussing in some detail what >>>constitutes valid evidence in an argument. Perhaps you would like to >>>write a letter to my class--or send them e-mail, since they will >>>eventually be using e-mail--explaining what you consider the proper >>>approach to researching historical events. >> >> Whenever I teach an introductory class (I've taught both Introduction >> to Business and Introduction to MIS) I assign the students to write a >> letter to the editor of the local newspaper. While I generally >> encourage them to write on a topic loosely related to the syllabus of >> the course, I let them know that what is important is that they write >> about something they care about. >> >> I have had a couple of students over the years choose to write their >> letters about abortion. Some of the students have taken a position on >> abortion directly counter to my own. >> >> I have graded them on the logic and structure of their argument. I >> have found that I am able to do this even if I don't agree with their >> premises. I don't see why any good instructor would have a problem >> with this. >> >> To relate this with denier writing in alt.revisionism: there is a wide >> disparity in quality among denier writers. Milt Kleim, for example, >> can string together a decent argument. Greg Raven is dishonest, but >> his logic structure is usually valid. Ross Vicksell was an excellent >> writer and debater. Other deniers range from moderately literate to >> barely able to string together multiple thoughts. I can judge all this >> knowing full well the content of denier posts is garbage. >> >>>> How could you grade him - >>>> subjectively? It seems clear from your posted attitudes that you >>>> couldn't possibly treat his paper with anything but prejudice. >>> >>>Again, this is a fascinating general topic for me and for many >>>teachers--how do we deal with students whose prejudices surface in their >>>papers? The most memorable example of this that I've encountered was a >>>student several years ago who responded to an article called "The Media's >>>Stereotypes of Arabs" by claiming that he thought that the stereotypes >>>were all TRUE--that he thought most Arabs were likely to be terrorists, >>>murderers, or ignorant lowlifes. When we met to discuss revising his >>>paper, I told him I really couldn't tell him how to "improve" his >>>argument, since it was so obviously full of prejudice. We talked for a >>>while, and he eventually told me that he disliked Arabs because he had >>>family in Israel and he feared for their safety. I asked him then what >>>he'd say to a student who tried to argue that stereotypes of Jews were >>>true, and he began to understand what was wrong with his thesis. He ended >>>up writing a fairly good paper about why he held the stereotypes that he >>>did--I don't know if he became less of a bigot, but his paper was fairly >>>thoughtful. > Where did you say you 'teach'? Kansas City Institute of Spiritual Enlightenment. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:07 PDT 1996 Article: 62516 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: uk.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:14:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <50m26c$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <841759139snz@drmac.demon.co.uk> <322C997D.2F44@popmail2.vnet.net> <50kkm6$pb8@texas.nwlink.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:15:08 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:272999 alt.conspiracy:85242 alt.revisionism:62516 alt.society.conservatism:51384 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:370582 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28486 alt.politics.perot:54597 alt.politics.democrats.d:118136 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:17:19 GMT, brendat@nwlink.com (Brenda Tipton) wrote: >MCX wrote: >>It is amazing how during election years Saddam decides to raise hell. >>You would think that some of the American sheeple would one day think >>for themselves. Alas that day will not come until it is too late. >I should think it's pretty obvious to everyone that Saddam is scared to death >that the Republicans will get back in the White House. He's just giving Clinton >a little insurance money. Didn't anyone else notice that this latest offensive >came just after the Dick Morris scandal made the front pages of every paper in >the world? How considerate of Saddam to knock Morris off the front page. Going back a ways, Iraq gave Clinton another one at one of his low points when they mobilized near the border of Kuwait. Clinton talked tough. They withdrew. Except for one minor point, the size of the operation was such that it would have taken two months to stage and would have stood out like a sort thumb on satellite photos. But Clinton was surprised by it, so he said, something patently impossible. Maybe Iraq is in the drug business also. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:08 PDT 1996 Article: 62517 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: uk.misc,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.democrats.d Subject: Re: The Hussein-Clinton ticket Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:15:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50m28j$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <841759139snz@drmac.demon.co.uk> <322DA822.353@lis.ab.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:16:19 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:273003 alt.conspiracy:85244 alt.revisionism:62517 alt.society.conservatism:51385 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:370586 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28487 alt.politics.perot:54598 alt.politics.democrats.d:118139 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:02:42 +0000, Stig wrote: >Duncan R. MacMillan wrote: >> >> How much is Saddam Hussein being paid to conduct his bomb-dropping >> escapades at such a convenient time? >> >Probably A little covert capital investment, and less intransigence from the US >when it comes to upholding the UN sanctions post-election. One is reminded how the >US covertly delivered military merchandise to Syria, and persuaded the EC to drop >its trade sanctions against Syria too, in exchange for Syrian support in the '90-91 >Gulf war. This, of course, was done in violation of US trade ban against Syria for >its support of "terrorist causes". And more recently permitting the arming Bosnians while he was condemning the idea. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:09 PDT 1996 Article: 62520 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.dacom.co.kr!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What is amazing among the holohuggers Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 08:22:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 73 Message-ID: <50gprp$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <50bvuk$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 1:22:17 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:56:09 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># They really believe in spirits. >You don't have a job. Why would I need one? When do you plan to retire, child? ># Even more interesting, they believe in the Devil/Satan. >You're unemployed. Right. Feels great. No job, no boss, no shit. You should try it some time 40 years from now. ># Even more interesting there are more fewer atheists than ># there are people who believe in the devil. >You retired at the age of 46, probably because no one was >willing to hire someone like you. I do not need the money. Is that not clear enough? Why should I work why I do not have to work? But of course you have to work or go live on the street. But you found a great job as a customer service rep. Keep up the good work and don't lose your temper. ># These are the holohuggers. >You are a failure. Then why do I have enough income to retire on? ># They are superstitious, religion beiieving basket cases. >You are a loser. Want to drop by some day for Pina Colada on the balconey? ># They are so stupid that they really believe there was a ># Moses, that the Hebrews were in Israel and an dozen other ># things to stupid ot mention. >You are going down the tubes. ># They are dumber than dogshit. >They have jobs. You don't. They have to do what others tell them to do or be fired. Like you. What is your problem? Can't deal with someone who was able to retire early? Think that you can do it? Give it your best shot. Twenty years from now, let me know how you are doing. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:09 PDT 1996 Article: 62522 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:46:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <50m42d$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net> <322d7eed.2575543@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607263468@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322da8a8.13258620@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:47:09 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:31:36 -0700, Marty Kelley wrote: >On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote: >> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >> >> >> Where did you say you 'teach'? >> > >> > In my first sentence up top. >> >> "MIS"? >"Management Information Systems" It's a pretty well-known field, Mr. >Moran. You could have looked it up. What physical location does MIS designate? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:10 PDT 1996 Article: 62523 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten again Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 10:16:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <50h0hd$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com> <3229C0C8.9C7@kaiwan.com> <50ggri$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 3:16:13 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 06:33:53 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># Have you found any physical evidence for it yet? The ># world is waiting. >There is plenty of physical evidence: some of the gas chambers, >cyanide traces on their walls, large amounts of human remains >in some of the camps, numerous documents, photographs. Cyanide traces are everywhere. No significant amount of human remains anywhere, even Babi Yar, three possible documents if you are paranoid enough. No photographs fo interest whatsoever. But you konw all of that. And still you lie to support holohuggery. Why? Are you a vegan missing basic proteios? >Why don't you find a job? You're boring, Matty. I don't think >this very early retirement was a good idea. You're really >going down the tubes. Your jealously is overwhelming. Why do yo not retire? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:11 PDT 1996 Article: 62526 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: for those who have any turther questions Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:16:07 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 67 Message-ID: <50m5pe$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 2:16:30 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 If anyone is curious about gryn.org ... First part of his domain is 206.231.240.144 Last part is 206.231.240.151 ------------------- The domain's above and below him share one thing in common: They are recieving DNS services from uu.net That is the extent of it. gryn.org is also recieving mail services >from uu.net, or at least they are one of his mail exchangers (if his is down or whatnot). The whois record is as follows: ------------------ [rs.internic.net] FidoNet NET250 (GRYN-DOM) 152 McMorran Crescent Thornhill, Ontario L4J 2Y2 Canada Domain Name: GRYN.ORG Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact: Grynspan, Alec (AG50) alec@GRYN.ORG 905-889-3995 Record last updated on 05-Jan-95. Record created on 01-Nov-94. Domain servers in listed order: NS.UUNET.CA 142.77.1.1 NS.UU.NET 137.39.1.3 The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ---------------------- gryn.org nameserver=ns.uunet.ca gryn.org nameserver=ns.uu.net gryn.org nameserver=ns.it.ca gryn.org nameserver=ns2.uunet.ca ns.uunet.ca IP=142.77.1.1 ns.uu.net ip list= 206.6.1.1 137.191.2.149 0.8.0.69 206.6.1.127 198.6.1.1 206.6.1.70 206.6.1.20 137.39.1.3 198.6.1.127 ns.it.ca 199.45.111.1 ns2.uunet.ca 142.77.1.5 Basically, a list of all nameserver's which are authoratative for the domain of gryn.org. No different than if I paid mci.net to perform nameservice for my domain. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:11 PDT 1996 Article: 62527 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:19:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50m5va$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50js92$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4SEP199607010613@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 2:19:38 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 07:01 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: > We have below here a summary of the Matt Giwer philosphy of the world. > To sum: "Anyone who doesn't wee the world exactly as Matt Giwer sees it > is an idiot." This philosophy works very well as all questions are > answered by it. And as a further bonus, since no one sees the world > exactly as Matt Giwer sees it, everone is an idiot. Except for Matt > Giwer. Another holohugger defending belief in non-existent gods. It is truly amazing that this person wishes to be taken as rational. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:12 PDT 1996 Article: 62529 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:22:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 60 Message-ID: <50m652$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50hc5d$dfi@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50js92$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50k7up$q9i@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 2:22:42 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 15:41:13 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: I had to break the truth to you slowly. >: >: Anyone who identifies with anything that is without rational >: foundation is an idiot. That includes Christians, Moslems and Jews. >: They are all idiots. But you know that. >Actually, I don't know that. I'm an agnostic, but I don't feel >it necessary to advance my position through name-calling. Accurate descriptions are not name calling. >: Try getting over it. There is no god(s), period. Therefore there is >: no religion. Therefore there is nothing of interest that is in any >: manner related to anything like it. >: >: Is this too hard for your to grasp? >I have a feeling it's too hard for anybody to grasp, Matt. "No god, >therefore, no religion." Priests and Rabbis believe in god, and god >does not exist; therefore, Priests and Rabbis do not exists. People exist with those titles but it is no different from the title Soothsayer. >Thousands of years of human history will have to be revised. Not >to mention logic. History need not be revised. It stands as a testiment to the common occurance of idiocy. >: Anyone who hung on to any religion for any reason and was persecuted >: for it was simply an idiot. Anyone who hangs on to any religion today >: is an idiot. >: >: That means that all Christians, Jews and Moslems among many others are >: idiots. All of them. >To quote Oliver Cromwell--"In the bowels of Christ, I beseech you; >bethink yourself that you may be wrong." Your arrogance is really, >truly, sickening, Matt. If you want to go crawling around in the shit in the bowels of a dead man go right ahead. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:13 PDT 1996 Article: 62530 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:33:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <50m6pp$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50jsgj$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50l5bd$a6r@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 2:33:45 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 00:02:53 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> > Sure, Matty poo. You have bragged about your memberships in >> >organizations > >> You are a liar. I have only mentioned in my years being a member of >> the NRA and the Libertarian Party. > And the World Science Fiction Convention. There is no such organization. But you know that. >> What would really be interesting would be to find you are really an >> attorney and to transmit your posts to the Penn Bar. It would then be >> up to them. > Easy enough to check. Matty poo. There is a book called >Martindale-Hubbell available at any library. > Should you wish the number of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania >(attorney registration office I would be gald to supply it). Please, Matty poo, >please, please, please make a complaint to them. I will even promise to post the >testimony you give at the deposition. > --YFE #40290 Thank you very much. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:14 PDT 1996 Article: 62531 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:03:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 96 Message-ID: <50m51o$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net> <322aec47.575723@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 2:03:52 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:29:10 -0700, Marty Kelley wrote: >I see that Mr. Moran has responded to a number of posts in ths thread, but >has NOT responded to my initial message. I would therefore like to repeat >the pertinent parts of the post: >Tom Moran wrote: >>Would you invite a revisionist into your classroom? >I generally wouldn't, because I teach a writing class, not a history >class. Further, since Holocaust denial is an exercise in >pseudo-knowledge that is on a par with "creation >science" and UFO "studies", I believe it is worth studying as a >phenomenon, but not as a valid historical perspective. Do you mean to claim there is actual physical evidence for this holocaust of yours? But some day get around to posting your evidence of your claim. And when you do so, remember that I was the first to post the comparison of holocaust to UFO abductions, RSCA, and witchcraft. And then the gradeschoolers here started chanting, "I'm not but you are." But still you folks have only testimony on the order of a poor horro story writer and zero physical evidence, >However, I would like to give you a chance, Mr. Moran: I hereby invite you >to come visit my composition classes at Pima Community College, and to >tell them all about Holocaust revisionism. I teach Tuesday and Thursday >mornings; more details can be arranged if you accept my invitation. Please >be aware that this is an invitation to speak to the class only; i am >unable to provide you with any financial assistance for travel and >lodging. Perhaps some of your supporters in the Denier community can fund >your visit. Pima County? Which state? Should I get out your way, may I take you up on the offer? It will require you to handout one work prior to my lecture with the notification that it will be the subject of criticism in the next lecture. The terms of this deal requires that the source not be disclosed. >[snip] >Every semester, I introduce the >assignment on argument and research by discussing in some detail what >constitutes valid evidence in an argument. Perhaps you would like to >write a letter to my class--or send them e-mail, since they will >eventually be using e-mail--explaining what you consider the proper >approach to researching historical events. Would you like to give me that email address and explain how they will be using it? I will conduct the discussion. The topic will be "Verisimilitude in Literature." It sounds like fun and certainly will be quite instructive for all concerned. This will fit in quite well with your purpose of researching history events. >[snip] >> Why don't you line up a lesson plan for the kids. Tell them you >> are going to have a debate on the Internet with one person, Moran, and >> then have them do a critique and we can review all the responses out >> here. >Happily. Once the class gets rolling, I will invite students who are >interested in commenting on the discussions in alt.revisionism to do so >here as extra credit. (It's rather outside the scope of the class's main >goals, although I suppose it could work for the unit on linguistic >ethnography...) A community college course on composition has something to do with linguistic ethnography? You mean how to make the dialog sound ethnic? What might a.r have to do with that? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:15 PDT 1996 Article: 62532 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:27:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50m6e7$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322C45E8.3F54@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50jsbq$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <841880275.4944@dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 2:27:35 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 23:58:05 GMT, brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu wrote: >In article <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322C45E8.3F54@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50jsbq$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, > mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:51:20 -0700, Brian Harmon >> wrote: >> >Matt Giwer wrote: >> > >> >> I hate to break this to you but there are no witches. There are no >> >> priests. There are no rabbis. There are only deluded people. >> >> Witches, priests, rabbis and whackos are all the same, whackos. >> >Mental illness is such a sad thing to watch. >> >[whether or not you think religious figures are 'whackos', >> > doesn't mean they aren't actually religious figures, matt.] >> Excuse me. I did not realize you were a brain dead, religious true >> believer. Go thy way, thy faith has saved thee. >> Come back when you can think for yourself. >sigh, such wit. >Whether or not you think they're deluded, there still are > people called priests, rabbis, and wiccans. It only works that way if words and titles have no meaning. An LEO enforces the law. A scientist does science. A priest has an empty title as there is nothing for him to do that is more than any charlatan can do. >I never said that they have 'connections to god' or perfom > miracles, Matt. But are now pretending stupidity. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:16 PDT 1996 Article: 62535 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Kan Kleim Klean up his act? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:32:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50m37c$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <508150$4e@jerry.loop.net> <50chbi$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50gn0o$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50itvg$e31@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:32:44 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28491 alt.politics.white-power:42027 alt.revisionism:62535 On 4 Sep 1996 03:44:48 GMT, rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: Anyone who has seen the stereotype of the spoiled child can see it in >: the holohuggers. >But it's more readily seen in the behaviour of the revisionists, as they >call themselves, who can never resist name-calling, but throw themselves >down on the floor and scream (even literally, for all I know) at the >slightest suggestion of it coming from others. And with this you do what you editted out, the gradeschool, "I'm not but you are," response. And you do this despite your knowledge that any newcomer, no matter how quiet his approach, who continues to disagree is blood libeled by holohuggers. And as you know any indentification a person in nay manny with nazi or antisemitic is a blood libel -- meaning as do the holohuggers, that it is worthy of being answered in blood. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:16 PDT 1996 Article: 62536 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Being Both Jewish And Nazi Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:20:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50m2hf$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50g6v9$2ds@news.enter.net> <841882098snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:21:03 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 96 00:08:18 GMT, Alexander Baron wrote: >In article <50g6v9$2ds@news.enter.net> yawen@enter.net "Yale F. Edeiken" writes: >> I see. So it is of no importance what the ADL say. You may interpret >> their words and their opinion s to give them a meaning they never had. The >> ADL has never made the statement -- that believing it is "possible" that the >> Holocaust never happened demonstrates anti-Semitism. Thank you for pointing >> out that Lyin' Al was, indeed lying. >Let me get this straight, questioning the Holocaust is not "anti-Semitism" in >the ADL's book? Right from the ADL's book and repeated on Nizkor is that questioning details of the Holocaust is the promotion of hate. BTW: Harvard law school has a similarly milicious and libelous webpage now. The movement is growing. One would think that HLS would know better than to do what they have done. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:17 PDT 1996 Article: 62540 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Master of Liars? GIWER? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:47:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 97 Message-ID: <50m7ju$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <50cf01$mu6@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50ghd9$e1n@s <50konm$38n2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <50l6fi$ql9@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 4:47:42 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 17:22:10 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <50konm$38n2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, >gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >>Another lie from the master of liars. >PUH-LEESE, Mr. McFee. If he was any GOOD at it, he wouldn't be >so readily caught. >Get used to it - he's a rank amateur, and, as far as I can determine, >a troller whose only interest is in causing fights. While he can sound >superficially plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges >(while accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/ >http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/ >http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/ >http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/ >http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html >http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html >http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar-wager.html >Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special >newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately >ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, >redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power, >an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings. >-- >The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/search.html >-----------------------| http://search.nizkor.org/search.html > |-------------------------------------- >Bored? Try http://www.nizkor.org/giwerundean-lesson.cgi Whois Ken McVay? === McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA 462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8 CA 1-604-382-0615 Record last updated on 18-Jul-96. The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ===== The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July 1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan, openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli intelligence. === McVay, Ken (KM214) 1B Systems Management Limited 5-1601 Bowen Road Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7 CA (604) 758-2499 kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA Record last updated on 02-Apr-96. Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD Information. All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:18 PDT 1996 Article: 62541 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 07:59:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50m19e$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4vsept$pfh@vixc.voyager.net> <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <50e6an$3jd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50h2h9$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50hn1n$5sm@scoop.eco.twg.com> <50ju38$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 12:59:42 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:14:18 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <50ju38$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> My website carries a guest editorial by Davy Crokett. >> >> To wit ... >> >> >> > >[the rest of this huge nonsense snipped] > >Mr. Giwer: > >Once again (for at least the fourth or fifth time), LEARN TO USE HTLM MARK-DOWN. > >It's STUPID to include html coding in Usenet. > >But you knew that. To dumb it down for the simple minded, save it to a file then then open the file in your browser. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:19 PDT 1996 Article: 62547 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:51:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 82 Message-ID: <50m7sd$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <3218666d.328313619@news.inetport.com> <4vlj6l$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <32207BD5.584C@unb.ca> <4vrge8$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <3221FF6F.6B17@unb.ca> <500o7i$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3224D727.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <506796$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <841636966.13329@dejanews.com> <50h0r3$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322C471A.ABD@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50jso5$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <841851431.20110@dejanews.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 4:52:13 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 16:29:35 GMT, Brian Harmon wrote: >In article <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <3218666d.328313619@news.inetport.com> <4vlj6l$gk9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <32207BD5.584C@unb.ca> <4vrge8$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <3221FF6F.6B17@unb.ca> <500o7i$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <3224D727.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <506796$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <841636966.13329@dejanews.com> <50h0r3$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322C471A.ABD@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50jso5$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, > mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 07:56:26 -0700, Brian Harmon >> wrote: >> >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> >> On 2 Sep 1996 04:03:45 GMT, Brian Harmon wrote: >> > >> >> >My point, Matt, is that 'every abandoned building' in the US >> >> > differs from the gas chambers in auschwitz by many criteria, >> >> > including cyanide traces. >> >> >> >> Every abandoned building in the US contains traced of some popular >> >> insecticide or other. Cyanide was the insecticide of both choice and >> >> necessity on Germany during WW II. >> >_Every_ abadnoned building, matt? Since when do you know jack about >> >insecticides? >> Yes. Parts per billion are detectable today. If they are abandoned >> they are old and they have DDT which is long lived when completely >> exposed to the elements and is still around in detectable quantities. >> Or have you not been paying attention. >Matt, since when does DDT contain cyanide? Read the fucking posts before you respond. He says insectide. I said insecticide. >DDT is 1,1,1-trichloro-2,2-bis(p-chlorophenyl)ethane. Can you tell > me where cyanide comes from? There isn't a single CN group in there. The subject in insecticides in general, not particular ones. >DDT is long lived, however. you got one thing right. I always do. >> Or did you not know that through the 40s through 60s DDT was sold as >> household sprays? >> Are you deaf or just dumb? >Oh fuck off, you insignifcant worm. All you've done is assert > that 'every abandoned building' in the US will have cyanide > traces in them. Now you're claiming that they'll have DDT > traces, which has zilch to do with cyanide. I have asserted no such thing. I said insecticide. You are deliberately lying or very, very stupid and/or illiterate. >> >> In fact even if they were "gas chambers" then, given their genesis, it >> >> would be highly surprising to find no cyanide traces. What is found, >> >> in relationship to other samples is not out of the ordinary anymore >> >> than finding traces of RAID or Max bug spray. >> >Is there cyanide in Raid, Matt? Care to provide us with the active >> > ingredients of that bug spray? >> Your ignorance of the subject is noted. Please learn something before >> you participate again. >How ironic. I'll bet you $25 dollars, between you and me, that > there isn't a drop of cyanide in RAID bug spray. Care to take me > up on it? To put the bet in their proper terms, I will bet yyou $25 that RAID is an insecticide. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:20 PDT 1996 Article: 62550 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Words of Wisdom on Grynspan... Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:43:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <50masn$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <32299681.8720570@netnews.worldnet.att.net> <50gq6l$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <322C5643.617@gryn.org> <50k4n7$9na@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <322DA462.4875@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:43:35 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:46:42 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> I regret that I can not lie to support a Mossad murderer. Now if cash >> were to come my way ... you have my address >> >No - just to support your delusions. >As for cash --- you are now stating that you want money to stop your >statements. >Extortion is a crime. But that is not what I said and you know it. To clarify, if the Mossad or the CIA would like to cover up the leak you made, they know where to find me. But that is not extortion. That is the way intelligence organizations do business. Of course, I would advertise the entire transaction. It would be the test of whether or not you were bullshitting me as I believe you were on the phone. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:20 PDT 1996 Article: 62551 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!hustle.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!news.clark.net!mr.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:39:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 50 Message-ID: <50m3k9$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net> <322d7eed.2575543@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607263468@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:39:37 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 07:26 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <322d7eed.2575543@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes... >>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >> >>>>On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, tom moran wrote: >>> >>>>> If one of your students should turn in a paper with revisionistic >>>>> views, how would you grade him? >>> >>> Whenever I teach an introductory class (I've taught both Introduction >>> to Business and Introduction to MIS) I assign the students to write a >>> letter to the editor of the local newspaper. While I generally >>> encourage them to write on a topic loosely related to the syllabus of >>> the course, I let them know that what is important is that they write >>> about something they care about. >>> >>> I have had a couple of students over the years choose to write their >>> letters about abortion. Some of the students have taken a position on >>> abortion directly counter to my own. >>> >>> I have graded them on the logic and structure of their argument. I >>> have found that I am able to do this even if I don't agree with their >>> premises. I don't see why any good instructor would have a problem >>> with this. >>> >>> To relate this with denier writing in alt.revisionism: there is a wide >>> disparity in quality among denier writers. Milt Kleim, for example, >>> can string together a decent argument. Greg Raven is dishonest, but >>> his logic structure is usually valid. Ross Vicksell was an excellent >>> writer and debater. Other deniers range from moderately literate to >>> barely able to string together multiple thoughts. I can judge all this >>> knowing full well the content of denier posts is garbage. >>> >> Where did you say you 'teach'? > In my first sentence up top. I see a what but not a where. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:21 PDT 1996 Article: 62553 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.democrats.d Subject: Re: Steven Spielberg awarded $1M federal grant Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 07:49:07 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <50m0m8$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50dhja$bn7@news0-alterdial.uu.net> <50e6an$3jd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50h2h9$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50h849$1n3@panix2.panix.com> <50leld$8rj@news1.radix.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 12:49:28 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:62553 alt.politics.usa.republican:273053 alt.conspiracy:85260 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:370615 alt.politics.perot:54607 alt.politics.radical-left:116417 alt.politics.democrats.d:118162 On 5 Sep 1996 02:41:49 GMT, unique cats wrote: >>Oooo... good point. What about the CIA's budget... that is still secret? >>When I think of wasted and/or abused tax dollars, the CIA is first on my >>list. >> >>-- >>kate@accessone.com >>"It's not so much the apocolypse as it is the humidity." >> -Joel Hodgson >,,, >Remember the incident where the CIA built a $2 billion dollar submarine >in order to retrieve a sunken Russian sub to get its crytographic gear, >but the Russian sub broke in half when they attempted to lift it, and the >whole thing was a waste? >Anyone who gets a whiff of the kinds of things that go on within "black" >(classified) programs quickly realizes that the main reason for all that >security is to hide the wasteful spending from public scrutiny. About the only good like in ID4 was "Do you really think they pay a thousand dollars for toilet seats?" ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:22 PDT 1996 Article: 62559 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.bconnex.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Jewish Ingratitude Towards Nazi Humaneness Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:24:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50m9p8$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <500dpi$ojs@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <50h1au$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50jsuf$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <322D89E6.7D22@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:24:40 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 09:53:42 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> Not a one, holohugger. You know that. >> >So? When did you say you wanted the evidence delivered? I expect it to be posted publically, self professed murderer. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:23 PDT 1996 Article: 62562 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: another question Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:25:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 55 Message-ID: <50mdb4$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4SEP199606440877@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:25:24 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 06:44 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:55:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) >>wrote: >> >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >>># When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against >>># Demjanjuk for perjury? >> >>>Can you prove that they are guilty of perjury? >> >> He was not in the camp described. Therefore they lied. What is so >>hard about that? > It's hard becuase it is inconsistent with other assertions you have > posted. Didn't you just a day or so ago post that eyewitness testimony > given fifty years after the fact is necessarily polluted? Didn't you > yourself say that even if these people THINK they are telling the > truth, it is impossible to separate the truth from what they have been > told during the intervening 50 years? Excuse me. I was unaware you believe everyone related to the prosecution in this case should be brought up on charges of malicious prosecution and abuse of process. OK, fine with me. But the bottom line is who is going to spend years in jail for this known travesty of justice in any civilized country? > Did you notice that even though people here jump on most everything you > say, no one jumped on that particular point? So why do you contradict > it now? I was waiting for someone like you to admit the Israeli government was involved in malicious prosecution of Demjanjuk. I chose the form of the first post in expectation of someone, now you, to hold that the Government of Israel is morally culpable of persecuting an innocent man. It is appreciated that you have pointed out there is no justice in Israel. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:23 PDT 1996 Article: 62563 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Thinks that U.S. Courts are part of the Inquisition Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:01:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 93 Message-ID: <50mbvr$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50j7ea$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <50l8et$a6r@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:02:19 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 00:55:57 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> On 2 Sep 1996 12:04:08 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >> >> >Without getting too deeply in this, I would like to read any of Larson's >autopsies >> >for people allegedly found gassed at Dachau. > >> They existed back during the trials "by reference" but were never >> produced and can not be found. He was also permitted to testify to >> matters upon which he had no personal knowledge when it came to >> describing the gas chambers that existed for the trials but ceased to >> exist later. > Where have you looked? Right here. It was posted. We have been over this. Look it up. > Larson's complete report was used at trial. It is generally available from >several public sources as it was later made a part of the Congressional Record. >He described that which he saw. It included operating gas chambers and >victims of those gas cahmbers. Let us examine the prima facia value of your claim. You claim that he described an operating gas chamber. You therefore claim that the US Army was permitting a gas chamber to continue operating for him to observe. Are you really that stupid? >> In other words it was a typical war crimes trial that used the legal >> tradition of the Inquisition -- but then I denigrate the inquisition. > Odd. I thought the Federal Rules of Evidence (Rule 703 is posted >elsewhere) were written for U.S. courts. > You have a very odd view as to how trials are conducted. But I do know how they were conducted. And I also know that someone like you who claims to be an attorney supports courts like this. ----- And if defense witnesses should get carried away and presume to claim that they know nothing of gas chambers, and perhaps even dare to dispute their existence, then the least that will happen to them is that they are declared unreliable. Even the Judge himself may become abusive.260 But how the Judges change their tune in those exceptional cases where a former SS-man 'confesses': "A valuable witness, one of the few who confirm at least some of what everyone knows anyhow."261 Indeed, the author has hit the nail on the head! Since everything is "judicially noticed" and considered self-evident anyhow, it would be much easier to dispense with all the laborious proceedings and simply hand down the verdict as soon as the witnesses for the prosecution have had their say. The courts frequently conclude from these circumstances that witnesses for the defense cannot contribute anything of value to an investigation anyhow, and thus disregard their testimony or even dispense with summoning them in the first place.262 260 Cf. B. Naumann, op. cit. (Note ), p. 265; I. Mller-Mnch, op. cit. (Note ), p. 107: "What all do you think you can make this Court believe? I will dispense with any further testimony of yours.", also pp. 116, 172. 261 H. Lichtenstein, op. cit. (Note ), p. 56; op. cit. (Note ), pp. 72f.: "[...] the Chief of the District Court said, well, we get this sort of witness too sometimes. 'Thank God!', one might add." ----- The point is that you support the idea that the court can take judicial note of the guilt of the defendents pleading not guilty and conduct the proceedings accordingly. But then, you are an attorney. You believe this to be a fair trial. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:24 PDT 1996 Article: 62565 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Matt Giwer's latest tactic. Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:49:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <50mepr$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <423_9608242213@tor250.org> <4vrg7v$8e8@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <501105$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <322453AA.EEC@gryn.org> <5043rn$ff2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <322C34FA.1A41@gryn.org> <50jqpi$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50ld6a$6ir@news1.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:50:19 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 02:16:42 GMT, alec@gryn.org@ (Alec Grynspan) wrote: >In <50jqpi$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> One man's word against another coupled with your admission of >>murdering two Americans on this conference should do it. >Ahhh, yes! The "admission on this conference" which you can't find. >The judge would love that! It is not worth the time now. What is your point? >> Going to sue me? Please do. >Why? You're effectively judgement-proof and you've already been proven a >liar. I didn't think so. >The fact that you'd lose is obvious. Only to Pennsylvania lawyers. >> I have been awaiting the opportunity to post the blow by blow of DOD;s >>Ken McVay pressing charges and the FBI visit. >You wouldn't reach the second sentence, Matt. One "irrelevant" objection >and the judge would tell you to cut the crap. But excuse me. McVay is not posting with his DOD email address or have you not noticed? He made a fool of you and your mailbombing. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:25 PDT 1996 Article: 62566 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:57:55 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 55 Message-ID: <50m87q$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <50ahfp$n9@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50glso$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <322CA03A.3DF8@unb.ca> <50jvmu$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <322DFE82.26BC@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 4:58:18 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:98894 alt.revisionism:62566 alt.politics.white-power:42037 soc.culture.europe:47554 soc.culture.german:85046 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:11:14 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 18:16:42 -0300, Keith Morrison >> wrote: >> >> >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> A minor problem is the laws against speech and the press are a cause >> >> for revolution. Should Germans ever have the balls for it, I will do >> >> what I can to get them the guns. >> >> >That reminds me, Oh Gonadless One, I'm still waiting for you to gather up the >> >miniscule amount of courage you have to answer the following questions: >> >> >1. Why did you cut out part of one of my posts and then claim you didn't >> > do it despite the fact anyone with two neurons saw that you did? >> >> >2. What hominid averaged seven feet in height? >> >> >3. How many bones compose the skull and pelvis? >> >> >4. How many bones does _Gray's Anatomy_ (which *you* mentioned) say >> > there are in the skull? >> >> >(The 1995 reprint of the First Edition, page 4 and page 19 for starters) >> >> I will see your claims and raise you >> >> How many items of physical evidence are there of the holocaust. >> >> You provide one and I will deal with the rest. >In Poland, near the town known as Auschwitz while it was under German occupation, >there exists a camp known as Auschwitz-Birkenau. The existance of this camp >matches documentary and eyewitness evidence that indicates it was there. >The existance of this camp provides one piece of physical evidence that at least >part of the story of the Holocaust is true. >Your turn, Giwer. And I'm not going to let you stray off topic. We are agreed there was a camp. So what? There were camps in the US in WW II for Japanese-American citizens. And there are cetainly traces of insectides in them. No holocaust there. Next point. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:26 PDT 1996 Article: 62568 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Grynspan says Moran's parents "incestuous pair of slugs". Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:15:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50mcpd$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50jdgc$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <50l6b0$a6r@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:15:57 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 00:19:44 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> At the trials witnesses for the defense were threatened, insulted, >> charged and imprisoned until they changed their testimony. And the >> judges and the prosecution did that to subborn the perjury that is the >> only basis for the holocaust. > This is a lie. Sorry but I can not change the truth even if I wanted to change it. And also it is exactly the kind of trial you have said you support. It is amazing what kind of lawyers are being turned out these days. >> Every bit of the holocaust rests upon perjury. Suspicions are one >> thing. To have it all so clearly laid out is something else entirely. > You have yet to do so. You tell lies. You cannot point to a single >point in transcript where cross-examination was denied. You cannot point to a >single point in the transcript where the defense was refused the right to present >witnesses. You cannot point to a single point where a judge threatened a >witness. > You are making it up again. > But everybody knows that by now. How much more do I need to post on the subject? You support the court taking judicial note of guilt of defendents who plead not guilty. what more can I say about you? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:27 PDT 1996 Article: 62571 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: another question Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:19:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <50md0p$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <322C9C17.22AA@rio.com> <4SEP199606073620@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:19:53 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:54:05 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes: ># Is there corresponding evidence that Demjanjuk was guilty? >He was trained in Travniki and stationed in Sobibor. His photo >was picked by a few survivors and an SS-man as that of "Ivan". >Either he's indeed Ivan, or he sure looks like him. Willful perjurors identified him. Swore to it under oath showing you what holohuggers think about oaths. Now when are they going to be prosecuted for perjury? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:27 PDT 1996 Article: 62572 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:10:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <50mcfv$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322b1602.11258361@news.pacificnet.net> <50jcd6$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <322D8CC0.1777@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:10:55 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:05:52 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> Of course he is lying. Remember, he was in the intelligence business. >I was? Have you actually seen any credentials? Did I ever present any? >Post the URL. >> Lying is a job skill, not to mention the wetwork, i.e. murder. >Post the URL. Your claim of doing wet work was in a phone conversation as you remember. You only mentioned killing two people in a.r but said that I did not know the circumstances of it. >> But then his techniques here are the until oxymoron, in the >> intelligence business with his intelligence? >What on Earth is an "until oxymoron?!?" >As for being in the Mossad, we've already been there, Matt. >Unless you count my "honourary" membership as a child - NOPE! Get over it. You bragged to me about doing wet work for that Jewish intelligence organization. I thought you were bullshitting then and I think you are still bullshitting. But intelligence work does include the job skill of lying in a convincing manner. You learned well. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:28 PDT 1996 Article: 62573 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Grynspan says Moran's parents "incestuous pair of slugs". Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:16:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50mcql$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322b1618.11280331@news.pacificnet.net> <50jdgc$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:16:37 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:23:29 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <50jdgc$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> Every bit of the holocaust rests upon perjury. Suspicions are one >> thing. To have it all so clearly laid out is something else entirely. >In article <5065u8$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >>The very absense of physical evidence is proof that it is true. > >Which is it, Mr. Giwer? Exactly what you are dumb enough to swallow, like semen. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:29 PDT 1996 Article: 62574 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:03:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 46 Message-ID: <50m8io$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <50idn1$1f0u@sol.caps.maine.edu> <50k3pp$9na@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <322DFDBF.712@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:04:08 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:98897 alt.revisionism:62574 soc.culture.europe:47555 soc.culture.german:85047 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:07:59 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >Do you really think a violent revolution is called for because of minor laws >> >limiting certain types of public expression? >> >> Who is foolish enough to prioritize rights? You? Again, prudence >> dictates attempting a nonviolent means first. But also to repeat, all >> rights are equal, the deprivation of any one of them is a killing >> offense. >Indeed. What do you make of the right of governments to have nuclear weapons >while individual citizens are not allowed to? Legitimate governments have no rights. They have powers which are delegated to them by the governed and nothing more. But if you would like to try to pursue this game, you can go to Cornell and find the law against individual possession of nulcear weapons. You will not be the first to fail. >If all rights are absolutely equal, by what right do you have to deprive >others of their right to live? And that can not be done without due process as are all rights subject to due process. But you know that. You have denied them one of their rights, >therefore I assume you will happily stand still while their relatives gun >you down. That is a risk those relatives will be taking in the attempt. That is why the people have delegated police powers to the government. >(All those, unlike Matt, who can see a circular argument starting can >carry on by themselves.) I have dealt with so many fools like you before on this subject that it is nearly impossible for me to get it wrong. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:30 PDT 1996 Article: 62575 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:44:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <50meg5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net> <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607301703@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:45:09 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 07:30 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes... >>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >> >>>In article <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes... >>>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >>>> >>>> You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he >>>>is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster' >>>>of a website and a "director"? >>> >>> Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg complex, so >>> we let him call himself "the Director." >> >> "We"? Who is "we"? > The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG for short). I know we exist, I > even have the t-shirt to prove it! > No, seriously, "we" would be all of the people loosely involved with > Nizkor (though I don't know why I am answering you seriously now given > my nothing else I have said in this thread is anything more than a > troll.) If those co-conspirators would identify themselves rather than begging off from any claim of active participation then they can be named in the lawsuit against Nizkor. They vanish the instant the lawsuit is mentioned. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:31 PDT 1996 Article: 62579 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Parades His Ignorance and Foolishness: Diesel Engines Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:05:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 49 Message-ID: <50juqa$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <509ss3$621@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50c0ab$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50h5uj$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <3SEP199607252883@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50hjfr$ekd@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04 8:05:14 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 3 Sep 1996 15:39:39 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer writes... >> Any rational group would seek out those who >> have killed for hire and kill them. Better >> the world is without them. And that does not >> matter what side they are one at the moment. >First, let me make it clear (since Matt will almost certainly try >to misrepresent my post) that I do not approve of political murder. >That said, could Matt please explain why the Mossad is bad for >killing terrorists, but "any rational group" would be good for >seeking out Mossad agents and killing them? Am I missing something >here? Excuse me but if you do not accept murder being murder I have no idea where to start with you. And I have not restricted my statement to the Mossad. CiA, KGB, they are all murderers. They are certainly members of crimainal organizations as any murder, any wet work, makes the entire organization a criminal organization under the rules of the war crimes trials. Therefore, they are all murderers. If the governments will not prosecute them then the power to execute devolves upon the citizens. When a government declines to exercise its delegated powers then the delgation is null and void and it devolves back to the people to exercise tbose powers. I was unaware there was anyone dumb enough to need a lecture on this subject. What is yoru problem? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:31 PDT 1996 Article: 62584 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:24:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50m68l$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322C45E8.3F54@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50jsbq$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50k848$q9i@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 2:24:37 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 15:44:08 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: Excuse me. I did not realize you were a brain dead, religious true >: believer. Go thy way, thy faith has saved thee. >: >: Come back when you can think for yourself. >You heard it here first, folks. Anybody who believes that priests >and rabbis exist is a "braindead, religious true believer". All >those guys you see walking around in white collars? Mass hallucinations, >folks, induced by ZOG's orbitting mind control lasers. >Matt, you have really, truly, cracked. Seek help. Soothsayers and witch doctors at best, all fo them. Only holohuggers are dumb enough to miss the point. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:32 PDT 1996 Article: 62585 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Gas-tight doors Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:39:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50mame$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <500pqb$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <50jo14$6n3@morgana.netcom.net.uk> <50jtbd$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <322DD407.511D@serv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:40:14 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:09:59 +0000, Laurinda Stryker wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:12:15 GMT, amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M. >> McLellan) wrote: >> >[snip] >> >> It is uneductated fools like you that bother me. Not regarding the >> holocaust but the economic future of America. >[snip] >Uh--notice anything about Mr. McLellan's e-mail address? No? Hint: >look at the last two letters. Good point. The Brit system has down the crapper also. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:33 PDT 1996 Article: 62586 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:44:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50m3ub$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net> <322d7eed.2575543@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607263468@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322da8a8.13258620@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:44:59 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:10:04 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >>> Where did you say you 'teach'? >> >> In my first sentence up top. > "MIS"? If he guessed the right term, he is trying to substiute Management Information Systems and get away with what instead of where. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:33 PDT 1996 Article: 62587 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:14:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 44 Message-ID: <50m970$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50lmpa$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:14:56 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 05:00:26 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >> > > >> >Mike Curtis writes: >> >> Herr Schwarzesel, you are neither humble nor do you have "opinions." What >> you _do_ have is the proclivity for Nazi hero worship (e.g. Streicher) and >> apologia (i.e. ranting against Streicher's conviction for crimes against >> humanity.) >> >What you have is no evidence. >> > > I found nothing pornographic in any of the quotes, > But then you also seem to think _Screw_ is the "standard" for pornagraphy... >It's a good place to start.. >> >> > nor could I find any justification as to why Streicher was killed. I posted >> > my reasons why. >> >> Then, Herr Schwarzesel, you are blind as well as stupid. The reasons for >> Streicher's conviction for crimes against humanity was laid out in black >> and white in the IMT's judgement against Streicher. Any poerson with a >> modicum of intelligence and integrity can easily understand this. But, of >> course, you are neither intelligent, nor possess any integrity.... >> >Now, Mark, let's review the "evidence" you have posted as a reply to my >request: >1. I am a "Nazi". This is a libel that deserves to be answered in blood. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 07:29:34 PDT 1996 Article: 62588 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!visi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:08:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <50jv0j$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <506e8f$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50itec$e31@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04 8:08:35 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:85280 alt.revisionism:62588 On 4 Sep 1996 03:35:40 GMT, rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: The window of opportunity for collecting eyewitness accounts in fact >: closed in 1946 at the latest. At this late date, all testimony is >: hopelessly corrupted. >: And the corrupted testimony will be the death of the Shoah as you >: think you know it. Because of the way memory works the testimony has >: to be corrupted. It has to be outrageously false. >Fascinating. Fifty-year-old testimony is _a priori_ unreliable, yet this >very testimony will disprove the reality of the Holocaust. >The logic of this escapes me. Perhaps that's because there isn't any. Elisabeth Loftus, a Jewish-American specialist on eyewitness testimony, takes the opposite position, even - in fact, particularly - in the context of Holocaust witnesses: of all the categories of witnesses, she says, these are the most unbelievable, due to the world-wide media exploitation and the emotionally highly charged mood characterizing the topic of the Holocaust.212 Admittedly, she has held this view only since attending the Demjanjuk Trial in Jerusalem, where the scales fell >from her eyes. In the end, this trial produced a verdict of not guilty, since the unreliable nature of all the witnesses for the prosecution had become too apparent - and this included witnesses who had given similar testimony two decades earlier in two Treblinka trials in Germany, where they had been deemed credible and had helped to decide the outcomes of these trials. cf. H. Lichtenstein, Im Namen des Volkes?, Cologne: Bund, 1984, pp. (Note ), pp. 196ff. Good enough or would you like more? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 10:20:44 PDT 1996 Article: 62599 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - Pornographer 2 Sara Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:13:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <50m94l$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50jgsh$1b7@juliana.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:13:41 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:09:59 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >rblackmore@juno.com (aka jbellings), writes: ># Mr. Keren-I don't know why, but I expected more from you. ># Are you suggesting, as apparently you are-that Streicher ># deserved death simply because of what he wrote as quoted ># above, or similar statements? >Not an easy question. Would I have sentenced Streicher to >the rope, had I been the judge? It's very possible that I >would not have. >But, regardless of that, he was indeed one revolting >swine; and I still bet that the last sound he made, while >dangling, was a little pig squeal. >Are you a happier person now, or did I disappoint you >once again? It reads like you think there is something special about pigs. Too Jewish. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 10:20:45 PDT 1996 Article: 62614 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten again Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:19:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50m9gd$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cufo$2lp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50gvvs$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> <50jns6$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <50jr53$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50k49p$q9i@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:19:57 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 14:38:49 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: Yes. It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather" >: that women and children are to be killed in such cultures. Are you >: really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world? Are you >: really that stupid? >So now you're contending that European culture in the 1940s condoned >the mass slaughter of women and children? What an odd idea, Matt. Actually I was talking about Israel today. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 10:20:46 PDT 1996 Article: 62618 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:57:24 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50mf7s$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <50j470$em6@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:57:48 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 05:31:12 GMT, rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck) wrote: >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote: >[blah blah blah] >: DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT >: for Ken McVay, Director of the anti-hate Website, Nizkor, The >: Holocaust Educational Resource, endorsed by the U.S. Holocaust Museum, >: The Simon Wiesenthal Center and many other Institutions and Websites. >: -------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sure, sign me up. I mean, I've never met Ken McVay, but I like his >website. (He's obviously a good troll^H^H^H^H^H fisherman too, but living >in Nanaimo, he should be!) It is great to read so many people support criminal copyright violation and conspiract to same. Even Edeiken knows that the legislative history of "educational purposes" does not support Nizkor but he publically posts a legal opinion that such copyright violation is within the law. It is just one more thing to report the the Penn SC. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 12:14:16 PDT 1996 Article: 62650 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!uunet!in3.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2 Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:30:42 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <50j7mt$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <50eifo$190@juliana.sprynet.com> <50g2qd$2ds@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 11:30:53 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 3 Sep 1996 01:49:01 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> rblackmore@juno.com writes: >> Without getting too deeply in this, I would like to read any of Larson's autopsies >> for people allegedly found gassed at Dachau. > Then look up his report and read it. It has been posted here. It is no such thing. It is testimony that would only be acceptable at an inquisition, as any attorney knows. >> As to the well fed guards, many of >> the prisoners looked well-fed also. The majority of deaths in these camps was >due >> to disease. Typhus runs rampant very quickly and the fatality rate can be very >high. > The incubation period for typhus is approximately 14 days. It "runs >rampant" only when relatively simple public health measures are not taken. The >fatality rate for typhus is about 10% in most populations. It is easily controlled. Ah, yes, controlled with food, water, and medicine which were not available moving the death rate from 10% under ideal conditions to what? You continue to makes your lies for the holocaust public no matter how many times they are exposed. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 18:22:41 PDT 1996 Article: 62747 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Kan Kleim Klean up his act? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 00:31:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50nrch$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <508150$4e@jerry.loop.net> <50chbi$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50gn0o$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50itvg$e31@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <50kda3$klu@jerry.loop.net> <50kgaa$sr4@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50m3bn$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <50n2pp$bq7@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 7:31:13 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28543 alt.politics.white-power:42094 alt.revisionism:62747 On 5 Sep 1996 17:31:37 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: That is because, without cause, I was libelled in a manner that is >: worthy of being answered in blood. >: >: And you must remember that blood libels justify any response. >Let's be perfectly clear on this, Matt. No shilly-shallying, okay? >Are you saying that you would be justified in killing anyone who >called you an antisemite? >Are you threatening to do so? I am calling it a blood libel. What does that mean to you? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 20:04:38 PDT 1996 Article: 62757 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A minor question Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 08:26:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <50jeg8$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fsoc$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04 1:26:48 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:06:22, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote: >In article <50fsoc$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) >>Subject: A minor question >>Date: Tue, 03 Sep 1996 00:05:37 GMT >> Why is that didn't discover anything peculiar about Auschwitz until >>after the end of the war? >> >Noun, Giwer-bot, we need a noun. Sorry, that is not an answer. There was nothing unusual discovered about Auschwitz from the time of liberation until after the war. But you know that. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 20:04:38 PDT 1996 Article: 62759 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten again Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 00:35:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 54 Message-ID: <50nrli$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com> <50jrcm$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50m9mi$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 7:36:02 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:22:39 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># Your URL? Your post? Your anything to say that some ># places at A-B had no problems with vermin? >There are rooms in the complex that do not have cyanide traces. >This is elaborated upon in the report of the Polish chemists, >often posted here. I don't recall the URL right now. If you'll >mail Jamie McCarthy, I'm sure he'll be happy to help you. As has been discussed in depth here, the polish report is worthless as it has only one data point. >Moreover, if the two underground cellars were indeed "morgues", >and both would have been "deloused" with Zyklon (as you claim), >then both would have had gas-tight doors. But only one of >them did. Why? Because it was the gas chamber. How do you know they did not? How do you know any of them had such doors? You mean because a door was found on a trash heap a hundred yard away it reallly belonged in the morgue? You mean that door from the demolished where it can not be determined whether or not it even fits? You mean that door? ># BTW: You are still lying about your degree. >Why do you say that? Why do you have to behave like a >silly child? >Matty, you want to contact Brown University, and tell >them that I "lied about my degree", and that they should >demand that I pay them back the salary they gave me as >a Ph.D research associate, for three years? >Can you PLEASE try to behave like an adult? Maybe you would like to give me the year as I requested. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 22:20:46 PDT 1996 Article: 62778 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: another question Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:25:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 33 Message-ID: <50mdbt$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <50k5kr$q9i@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:25:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 15:01:47 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:55:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) >: wrote: >: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >: >: ># When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against >: ># Demjanjuk for perjury? >: >: >Can you prove that they are guilty of perjury? >: >: He was not in the camp described. Therefore they lied. What is so >: hard about that? >You have proof they lied, Matt? The last I heard, the Israeli >Supreme Court did not rule that Demjanjuk was not Ivan--they >ruled that there was a reasonable doubt. >Do you understand the difference, Matt? Yes but you do not. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 23:11:32 PDT 1996 Article: 62787 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 01:29:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 67 Message-ID: <50nupb$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <50ahfp$n9@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50glso$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <322CA03A.3DF8@unb.ca> <50jvmu$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <322DFE82.26BC@unb.ca> <50m87q$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <322F5C1B.226D@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 8:29:15 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:99058 alt.revisionism:62787 alt.politics.white-power:42109 soc.culture.europe:47586 soc.culture.german:85129 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:02:51 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 19:11:14 -0300, Keith Morrison >> wrote: >> >> >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tue, 03 Sep 1996 18:16:42 -0300, Keith Morrison >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> >> >> A minor problem is the laws against speech and the press are a cause >> >> >> for revolution. Should Germans ever have the balls for it, I will do >> >> >> what I can to get them the guns. >> >> >> >> >That reminds me, Oh Gonadless One, I'm still waiting for you to gather up the >> >> >miniscule amount of courage you have to answer the following questions: >> >> >> >> >1. Why did you cut out part of one of my posts and then claim you didn't >> >> > do it despite the fact anyone with two neurons saw that you did? >> >> >> >> >2. What hominid averaged seven feet in height? >> >> >> >> >3. How many bones compose the skull and pelvis? >> >> >> >> >4. How many bones does _Gray's Anatomy_ (which *you* mentioned) say >> >> > there are in the skull? >> >> >> >> >(The 1995 reprint of the First Edition, page 4 and page 19 for starters) >> >> >> >> I will see your claims and raise you >> >> >> >> How many items of physical evidence are there of the holocaust. >> >> >> >> You provide one and I will deal with the rest. >> >> >In Poland, near the town known as Auschwitz while it was under German occupation, >> >there exists a camp known as Auschwitz-Birkenau. The existance of this camp >> >matches documentary and eyewitness evidence that indicates it was there. >> >> >The existance of this camp provides one piece of physical evidence that at least >> >part of the story of the Holocaust is true. >> >> >Your turn, Giwer. And I'm not going to let you stray off topic. >> >> We are agreed there was a camp. So what? There were camps in the US >> in WW II for Japanese-American citizens. And there are cetainly >> traces of insectides in them. >> >> No holocaust there. >> >> Next point. >Sorry, you asked for one piece of physical evidence. You never said it had to >prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the Holocaust occurred. Now, as per our >agreement: In other words you have no physical evidence of any holocaust. At best you have evidence of internment. It is good to see you admit that. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Sep 5 23:11:33 PDT 1996 Article: 62791 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.goodnet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Gassed again and again Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:41:15 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <50k4ep$9na@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <5092dm$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50goti$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04 7:41:29 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 05:07:49 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># Elie Wiesel was 14 when he started lying >You, Matty, started lying the minute you could talk, >and you didn't stop since. Whether that is is true or not Elie Wiesel is still a liar. I can no change that. You can not change that. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:42 PDT 1996 Article: 62796 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.democrats.d Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:11:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 63 Message-ID: <50m1vp$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <841759139snz@drmac.demon.co.uk> <322C997D.2F44@popmail2.vnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:11:37 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:273730 alt.revisionism:62796 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:371137 alt.politics.democrats.d:118489 On 4 Sep 1996 15:31:42 GMT, eylerjs@ctrvax.vanderbilt.edu wrote: >In article <322C997D.2F44@popmail2.vnet.net>, MCX > wrote: >> Duncan R. MacMillan wrote: >> > >> > How much is Saddam Hussein being paid to conduct his bomb-dropping >> > escapades at such a convenient time? >> > >> > --- >> > D. MacMillan >> > "Usenet Enquirer". >> >> >> It is amazing how during election years Saddam decides to raise hell. >> You would think that some of the American sheeple would one day think >> for themselves. Alas that day will not come until it is too late. >> >> >> mcx >I am finding it amusing to watch Dole try to pin this on Clinton -- and >all the old Gulf War hands explaining how it isn't their fault that >Sadam Hussein's main army was pretty much unscathed by their successful >war. So Clinton is 'sending a message' that Sadam would be safe to attack. >[But Bush, whose rep told Sadam that we would not retaliate if he took >Kuwait, was somehow 'strong' and 'forceful' and didn't 'send a signal'?] Of course that is not what happened. The statement was to the effect that the US would not interfere in the Kuwait/Iraq border dispute that regarded an oil field on their mutual border. It is only Democrats who are too ignorant of events in the Middle East to know the context of the statement. Or perhaps they believe a border dispute is the same as conquest. >If the Gulf War had been ended more decisively and if we had not >previously allowed Kurds to be slaughtered, maybe this wouldn't be >happening now. What is happening now but a few Kurds being kicked around? >It was shameful for Dole to publicly attack Clinton and urge particular >courses of action during the period when Clinton was formulating a response. When else can it be influenced? After it is over? >Where is all the criticism by the right of this patently unpatriotic >action -- an example of willingness to put the country at a disadvantage for >partisan political gain. In fact it is unclear just what authority the US had for that action. Not that it really needs any but it has no obvious relationship to any ultimatum the US or the UN ever gave Iraq. Just what is the objection to Iraq installing one Kurd faction over another? Where is that prohibited? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:43 PDT 1996 Article: 62801 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: WP Martyrs (was: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed...?) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 01:26:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 56 Message-ID: <50nule$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <50b060$11i8@sol.caps.maine.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 8:27:10 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:99069 alt.revisionism:62801 alt.politics.white-power:42114 soc.culture.europe:47589 soc.culture.german:85134 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 02:57:20 -0700, robk@rio.com (Rob Kowalewski) wrote: >In article , aviary@pigeon.com >(Hawkman Harold) wrote: >> In article , robk@rio.com (Rob >> Kowalewski) wrote: >> >> > Awhile ago, I posted my thoughts regarding the fact that our White Power >> > friends seem to pick quite an interesting array of folks they hold up as >> > "heros" and "matryrs". In summary, I pointed out that : >> > >> > -David Koresh is now a pile of child-molesting ashes; >> >> Never proven he was a child molester. It was investigated. It was dropped, >> because there was no evidence. It was made up by a parent of a child who >> wanted custody. It was a lie. >You are significantly misguided. Congressional hearings investigating the >incident, (Republican dominated, I might add), featured the testimony of >some of his pre-teen victims. He called them his "child brides". > >> > -Bob Mathews is now a pile of murderous, thieving ashes; >> >> > -Randy Weaver is now a self-made widower. >> >> Wrong. The little gook who shot her through the door with the child in her >> arms is a federal murderer who has since been promoted by the bloody FBI, >> a sorry bunch of killers, if there ever was.... >Weaver resisted arrest and avoided prosecution. He hid behind his family >when he knew the federal heat was on. He was extremely irresponsible in >teaching his young'uns about firearms (such as neglecting to tell them >"Don't point guns at armed law enforcement officers"). If he wanted to >stand and fight, who cares? But get the wife and minor kids out first, fer >pete's sake. He created the situation that played itself out most >tragically. Lets see, the marshalls show up and, without identifying themselves, start the shooting first the dog and then the son in the back killing him and wounding a family friend who was with him, thinking they were chasing down a deer. The hostage rescue team then shows up covertly and before announcing their presense and demanding surrender opens fire killing his wife and wounding him. And all of that started because of a BATF entrappment scheme and falsly reporting that Weaver was a suspect in an armed bank robbery. Those are the most important points you have either wrong or neglected. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:44 PDT 1996 Article: 62809 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: I have a question Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:27:11 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50m2tl$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:27:33 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 The holohugger commonly present without evidence that questioning holocaust promotes the hatred of Jews. Does that not mean that it is only the complete acceptance of the holocaust that causes Jews to be liked? Why is it that holohuggers assume Jews are so terrible as a people that only world class victim status can cause people not to despise them? It would be better if the holohuggers would start over and explain their assumption first before someone starts running with the inverse of their assumption, as above. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:45 PDT 1996 Article: 62817 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Kan Kleim Klean up his act? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:37:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50m3gf$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <508150$4e@jerry.loop.net> <50chbi$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50gn0o$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50kd7j$klu@jerry.loop.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:37:35 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28574 alt.politics.white-power:42121 alt.revisionism:62817 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:12:58 GMT, goat@anus.com (CHRIST SODOMIZER) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) took a fat hit off a pipe and >wrote: >> We live in a victim world. Victims are like children who need to be >>taken care of, who can not take care of themselves. Of course the >>grown up victims are like spoiled children who throw an tantrum when >>they are not catered to. >Victims seem to me to be asking for relativism to be applied to their >situation, in a universal sense. E.g. everyone must treat them >differently than the norm, but a norm must be established -- this >contradiction allows much of this stuff (Christianity, Judaism) to >flourish as political-emotive entities without any necessary ties to >reality. Given their "questioning the holocaust incites hatred" they must be saying that the only thing preventing hatred of the Jews is unique victim status. Beyond that, there is no known relationship between any religion and reality. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:45 PDT 1996 Article: 62819 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:45:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 32 Message-ID: <50m40k$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3226edad.390461@news.pacificnet.net> <322d7eed.2575543@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607263468@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322da8a8.13258620@news.pacificnet.net> <50kbdu$rn3@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:46:12 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 16:40:30 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote: >: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >: >: >> Where did you say you 'teach'? >: > >: > In my first sentence up top. >: >: "MIS"? >This thread just keeps getting funnier. >Yes, Li'l Tommy-- Danny teaches at MIS, which stands for "Miskatonic >Institute of Surreality." They're summoning the Old Gods to help >ZOG in it's campaign to undermine the Noble Aryan Race. >Wanna apply? Miskatonic U. does fit in with a lot of holohugger stories. Maniacal laughter heard over the aircraft engines indeed. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:46 PDT 1996 Article: 62822 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:34:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <50m6rl$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50ij8q$lgq@news.enter.net> <50jsgj$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 2:34:45 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:32:57 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote: >In article <50jsgj$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >[other giwer nonsense deleted.] >> > Have you protested the fact that this regularly done? >> >> Yes you are a lying fake attorney. >The liar is you, you beady eyed little twit. If you had an inkling of how >to make use of your internet connection, you could verify this in less >than 60 seconds. How would you know? You have no ability to judge. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:47 PDT 1996 Article: 62831 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ye shall smell gas where there be no gas Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:09:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <50m8u5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <509089$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50jp7b$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:10:13 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 96 17:25:30 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >[...] >>If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon. But then we all >>know he lies a lot. >>WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at >>Buchenwald for the Duluth News Tribune by recalling "long lines of prisoners being led to >>the gas chambers, which were usually disguised as showers." Unfortunately, Buchenwald is >>in Germany, and as we all know, "there were no extermination camps on German soil" >>(Simon Wiesenthal, Books and Bookmen, April, 1975). >> But then what does the subborner in chief know? >Giwer is not only a liar (that he doesn't protest, affirms that he he earns the title) but also >an idiot beyond any mortal bounds. That there were no extermination camps in Germany >does of course NOT mean that there were no gas chambers or no gassed people. As usual >his conclusions are completely worthless. (I wonder were he has done his degree in science?) How could you judge as you have zero familiarity with any form of science? But you know that. >Hey, Giwer, at what university DID you do your BS in science? It has been posted many times. Look it up. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:47 PDT 1996 Article: 62832 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!nntp.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Sinking McVay - down, down, down Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 06:57:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <50j98l$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <322af0e1.1753700@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Sep 03 11:57:25 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Mon, 02 Sep 1996 12:51:36 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (Tom Moran) wrote: >> Moran had posted "What is "trolling"? >> >> "I see a lot of dubbing of 'troller' or 'trolling' out here. What >> does that mean? >A fair question, to which Ken McVay gave various clever, subtle, and >educational responses -- and some not-so-subtle responses. Only McVay's lover could describe it that way. It appears your really do want to flaunt it. Trying to make Alec jealous? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:48 PDT 1996 Article: 62839 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: This is suppported by Edeiken Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:49:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 49 Message-ID: <50ook4$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 3:50:12 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 FROM YOUR IMT: DR SEIDL: When the witness was heard here I had no opportunity to cross-examine him, and for that reason .... PRESIDENT: Why did you have no opportunity to cross examine him? DR SEIDL: Because I did not know beforehand that he would be called by the Prosecution as a witness and had no opportunity to speak to the Defendant Frank about the questions which might have been put to the witness. [....] DR SEIDL: May I perhaps add something to this point? The difficulty of cross examination is just this, that we do not learn of the intended calling of a witness by the Prosecution until the witness is led into the courtroom, and we do not know the subject of the evidence until the Prosecution start to examine the witness. Just like in any regular trial. Source: IMT, VIII, p. 521 ========== YFE suports this as a fair, open and impartial manner for the defense to be treated. He knows. He's an attorney ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:49 PDT 1996 Article: 62845 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:17:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 84 Message-ID: <50ommv$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <50mi1o$71g@sol.caps.maine.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 3:17:35 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:99117 alt.revisionism:62845 soc.culture.europe:47593 soc.culture.german:85142 On Thu, 05 Sep 96 08:48:36 EST, scotterb@maine.maine.edu (Scott Erb) wrote: >In article <50k3pp$9na@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com says... >> Who is foolish enough to prioritize rights? You? >Each person probably has their own subjective view of how rights are >prioritized. Certainly there is disagreement on what rights exist and who >should have them. There is no scientific proof, so disagreement must exist, >and political systems deal with that. And guns deal with political systems. Rights are what people are willing to kill to enforce. >> Again, prudence >>dictates attempting a nonviolent means first. But also to repeat, all >>rights are equal, the deprivation of any one of them is a killing >>offense. >I can't imagine all rights being equal. Could you support that statement >with more than an assertion? Your inability to imagine is your problem. The rights that are protected from infringement by the government are in the Constitution. There is no priortization. They were all established against the power of a strong central government. Giving up any of them permits the power of government to destroy liberty. And of course that is the tendency of any government. >> A government slowly killing freedoms is no better than this. It >>merely puts off the inevitable. Should it happen sooner than later >>there will be less bloodshed. >I disagree -- governments that have a working democracy operate on the basis >of the will of the people. There is no need for bloodshed, people are free >to vote out the old guys and vote in new ones. If they choose not to do >this, who are you to say that since you don't like the collective choice of >the populus you want to enforce your notion of rights and government on the >people of a country? Not me personally. Me and the 5-10% of a population it takes to conduct a revolution. >> The British colonies in America put off revolution for 15 or so >>years and there was moderate bloodshed. The USA put off the slavery issue >>for 70+ years and there was major bloodshed. >I think that the issues are a bit more complicated than that, but at base I >agree that that America's refusal to deal with the slavery issue made the >bloodshed worse when it came. Which mitigates towards facing issues rather than putting them off as too hard. >> As for every state needing a revolution, the real Thomas Jefferson >>suggested a revolution every 20 years to keep a country healthy. >Do you think he still believed that during his term in office? ;) >He did act rather dictatorial you know. Or was that not the "real" Thomas >Jefferson? I do not know of any writing that retracted the position. Perhaps you can provide a reference? >> You may realize that our constitution was founded on the presumption >>of patriotism over partisanship but that partisanship won within the >>first few years. Those are the facts of life. >I simply don't think violence is a viable solution to the problems of a >democratic polity. And, I rather doubt that anything that would come >afterward would be better than what we have now, or, in the case of Germany's >rather understandable (though I disagree with them) laws banning Nazi >propaganda and symbols. I hardly think that law warrants destroying the >stability, comfort, and fun of life in Germany -- not to mention all the >people who would be killed. For what? Just to let Nazis spread their ideas? Violence settled the question of the Federal government being able to discriminate among states for the benefit of some and the detriment of others with the Civil War. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:50 PDT 1996 Article: 62849 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: another question Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:20:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <50md1t$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <322C9C17.22AA@rio.com> <4SEP199606073620@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50kmaj$kl@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:20:29 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 19:46:27 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Daniel Keren (dkeren@world.std.com) wrote: >: dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes: >: >: # Is there corresponding evidence that Demjanjuk was guilty? >: >: He was trained in Travniki and stationed in Sobibor. His photo >: was picked by a few survivors and an SS-man as that of "Ivan". >: >: Either he's indeed Ivan, or he sure looks like him. >This is in addition to the fact that Demjanjuk's defense was based >on his not being Ivan because he was actually a totally different >SS guard at another death camp. Which makes everyone ever involved with the Mossad murderers. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:50 PDT 1996 Article: 62852 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Holohugging belief structure Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:22:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 57 Message-ID: <50on0u$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 3:22:54 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 The belief structure of the holohuggers can be likened to those who believe in reincarnation. For example, someone claims to have been Napoleon. To the skeptic the simple way to deal with that is find another person claiming to have been Napoleon and to laugh. But the the true believer in reincarnation, finding two people who claim to have been Napoleon merely deepens the mystery of reincarnation. Thus when true believers in the holocaust are faced with lurid, absurd, and physically impossible claims they do not find that a negative. Rather they absorb it as a greater part of the mystery that they know to be true. For example that is the way they faced the story of a survivor claiming to have heard the "maniacal laughter of pilots" straffing them over the sound of the engines. "Manical laughter" in and of it self is the substance of B movies. And then the physical impossibility of hearing even shouts over the noise of the engine. And then the idea of a plane strafing without killing the drivers and destroying the engines/horses. To a true believer, those are not evidence the survivor did not witness the events reported. Rather they are merely opportunities to suspend critical thought, to suspend disbelief in favor of a truth that has no foundation other than such stories. You will note later that the story goes on to report women being forced to dance naked before the man in charge. True believers never appear to notice that this is a description of a witches' sabboth right out of official true confessions straight from medieval times. To a skeptic these are a prima facia link to the same sort of false confession. To the true believer -- they simply deny the link the obvious, that the descriptions are the same in all essentials. And then of course the more obvious details where they can and can not understand the language of the farmers. That they can see the faces of the pilots while traveling in closed wagons. But to holohuggers, these sorts of this are clearly more reasons to believe in their silly little holocaust. Solely because it fails to make sense, that it calls for faith and not knowledge. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:51 PDT 1996 Article: 62853 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:28:26 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 49 Message-ID: <50onbr$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50js92$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4SEP199607010613@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50m5va$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 3:28:43 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:51:09 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote: >In article <50m5va$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> On 4 Sep 1996 07:01 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny >> Mittleman) wrote: >> >> > We have below here a summary of the Matt Giwer philosphy of the world. >> > To sum: "Anyone who doesn't wee the world exactly as Matt Giwer sees it >> > is an idiot." This philosophy works very well as all questions are >> > answered by it. And as a further bonus, since no one sees the world >> > exactly as Matt Giwer sees it, everone is an idiot. Except for Matt >> > Giwer. >> >> Another holohugger defending belief in non-existent gods. >Actually, you anti-semetic little nazi twit (not name calling - an >'accurate description'), what he was doing is defending the right to >believe in whatever a person choses to believe in, without having to >suffer ridicule from beady-eyed, Hitler loving, little trolls (again, an >accurate description) like your yourself. You can believe whatever you want, in the US at least. However, that does not mean your stupidity can not be pointed out in public. The only protection in the US is against government prohibition of beliefs. After that, the whackos are up for grabs. >> It is truly amazing that this person wishes to be taken as rational. >How do you inger this ? How do you inger anything? >[incoherent .sig deleted] Incoherent? Here it is repeated for you. Obviously it is your english that is at fault. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:52 PDT 1996 Article: 62854 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Does the "A-Team" get paid? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:33:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 69 Message-ID: <50or5o$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3229a8cf.314665@news.pacificnet.net> <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net> <50mauf$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 4:33:44 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:06:20 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <50mauf$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:21:01 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >> >> >In article <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net>, amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan >> >Matthews) wrote: >> >> >[speaking of Tom Moron] >> >> >> Perhaps he's autistic - many of them like to bang their heads against >a wall >> >> endlessly. >> >> >> >> Besides, one defining aspect of autism is being caught up in your own >> >> fantasies and therefore being detached from reality. That certainly >sounds >> >> like Moron to me. >> >> >Allan: >> > >> >My son, who is autistic, deeply resents this statement. >> >> If he is, he can't. >Ah, Mr. Giwer is not an expert on AUTISM?!?!?! > >Your statement only PROVES your incredible ignorance, Mr. Giwer. Excuse me but any person who is following this conference with comprehension enough to "resent" my statement is not autistic. >Perhaps you've heard of a woman named Temple Grandin? No? Go look her up, >Mr. Giwer. She is a very accomplished and educated woman, has written at >least two best-selling books, raises livestock, and is autistic. I have heard of the person. I have also seen the real thing. >Or read Thomas McKean's _Soon Will Come the Light_. It's a beautiful book. >Thomas is also autistic. > >Or read ANYTHING that Dr. Oliver Sacks has written about autistic people. > >Not that it's any of your business, but my son has Asperger's Disorder, >which is considered a "high-functioning" form of autism. He attends >regular public school, just like any other 9-year-old. So have him post his own "resentment" to this conference just as any other 9 year old would. You are laughable. >And since you seem to care, his tested IQ is higher than yours. Good copy editors know there is a market in people like you who will buy anything that offers a false sense of hope. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:53 PDT 1996 Article: 62857 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten again Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:22:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <50m9mi$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com> <50h0hd$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50jrcm$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:23:14 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:42:22 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># Fumigation was everywhere, traces are everywhere. >Nope. Factually incorrect. Sorry about that. Your URL? Your post? Your anything to say that some places at A-B had no problems with vermin? Why not tell us what miracle they conjured up to accomplish this? ># Why would I hire someone who lies about his degree ># field? And if not lying your are not qualified in CS. >Matty, it's not my fault that your life has been a >failure; that you're a loser, a hateful, unemployed >bum, who hates himself and everybody else. You may >hate me - that's your right - but don't blame me for >your life being what it is. It ain't my fault, Matty. It should dawn upon you and your fellow holohuggers that this sort of thing not only does not work but that they more you try it, the less effect it has. BTW: You are still lying about your degree. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:53 PDT 1996 Article: 62866 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!xara.net!emerald.xara.net!news.thenet.net!news.supernet.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: worth repeating Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:59:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 364 Message-ID: <50mfcn$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 7:00:23 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:54 PDT 1996 Article: 62874 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: McVay's little boy mind Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:36:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50orbh$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3229c686.7920844@news.pacificnet.net> <322af4e8.2784752@news.pacificnet.net> <50kmk1$3qm@arl-news-svc-3.compuserve.com> <322edb97.418198@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 4:36:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 13:54:37 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >>You forgot some datas; the main is that liquid HCN will fast >>polymerize and for some other reasons will become quickly useless. >>Liquid HCN is hazardous, but unstable too. > Evidently it was shipped to Degesch. Do you have the >polymerization times? Is it ten minutes, 10 hours, 10 days, 10 weeks? Frankly it would be interesting to see the polymer structure and what its effects are. Chemical polymerization does not necessarily mean anything to what we are discussing. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:55 PDT 1996 Article: 62877 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:58:53 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 58 Message-ID: <50p05u$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net> <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <50meg5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <5SEP199606283619@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:59:10 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 06:28 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <50meg5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>On 4 Sep 1996 07:30 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny >>Mittleman) wrote: >> >>>In article <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes... >>>>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >>>> >>>>>In article <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes... >>>>>>schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> You mean McVay ain't the web master of Nizkor? Okay then I see he >>>>>>is listed as "Director". What's the difference between a 'webmaster' >>>>>>of a website and a "director"? >>>>> >>>>> Ken McVay is just the computer tech, but he has a Spielberg complex, so >>>>> we let him call himself "the Director." >>>> >>>> "We"? Who is "we"? >> >>> The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG for short). I know we exist, I >>> even have the t-shirt to prove it! >> >>> No, seriously, "we" would be all of the people loosely involved with >>> Nizkor (though I don't know why I am answering you seriously now given >>> my nothing else I have said in this thread is anything more than a >>> troll.) >> >> If those co-conspirators would identify themselves rather than begging >>off from any claim of active participation then they can be named in >>the lawsuit against Nizkor. >> >> They vanish the instant the lawsuit is mentioned. > You are hallucinating again. I was on the Nizkor web site the other > day and the list of contributers to Nizkor has grown since the previous > time I looked. The only thing vanishing is the reality of your lawsuit > - which we all know you will never file as it gives us the right to > depose you (which would be more fun that I can even imagine!) and the > cost of you filing a suit would be prohibitive. > But dream (or hallucinate) on, oh sottish one... Thank you. I will check again. All the contributors can be named and spend the time to beg being excused before the court. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:56 PDT 1996 Article: 62878 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:45:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 81 Message-ID: <50ort0$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322B1A72.167E@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50m28c$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com> <322f44cb.6655434@news.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 4:46:08 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:27:32 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >>> Brian Harmon writes: >>> , well, let me make a few points first: >>> >>> 1) Dachau was not a mass-gassing camp like Auschwitz or the operation >>> reinhard camps. >>Auschwitz doesn't appear to have been a mass gassing camp either. >Another one of those "because I say" so guys, folks. Because there has never been any physical evidence presented that there was any mass gassing at Auschwitz. We have been over this many times. >>> 2) Using an autopsy to determine that a person died by gassing is rather difficult >>> unless you're there soon after the victim died. >> >>Nonetheless, the claim is that autopsies were conducted. Where are the reports? >>Don't quote me people's opinions, including the doctor's. Show me the reports,along >>with evidence to prove that forensic tests were carried out to prove that the victim died >>from cyanide poisoning. >This guy refuses to understand reality folks. So where are the autopsey reports? Non-existant? You are correct, no one can understand holohugger reality. That no one can produce them proves they must exist. >>> You must be looking at a different set of pictures than the >>> ones I've seen. >>Could be, but they were taken at Belsen. I have also seen film footage showing >>people in relatively good health. And I have seen the pictures you describe as well. >In WHAT! >>> > The majority of deaths in these camps was due >>> > to disease. >>> >>> Oh? So the piles of starved corpses found there died due to >>> 'disease?' >> >>Yes. typhus and dysentery are "wasting diseases". >Diseases caused by? Let's try and be honest here. Inhaling HCN of course. What other possible cause? >>> I assume you have read source material that makes you believe this. >>> What was it, pray tell? >> >>Already posted. You'll have to look for it. >This doesn't fly here. This is what is called by lurkers as a typical >cop-out. That is what the revisionists call not being suckered in by the holohuggers beating to death and then trying to start over from ground zero a couple months later. The purpose of this conference is to make advances. Not to retread ground in response to holohugger tactics. The majority of the material is contained on the five major revisionist sites, as opposed to the one shittly little disorganized Nizkor. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:56 PDT 1996 Article: 62881 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:01:48 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 39 Message-ID: <50p0bd$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net> <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607301703@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50meg5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.c NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 6:02:05 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:34:42, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote: >In article <50mv3a$avv@lendl.cc.emory.edu> libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) writes: >>From: libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) >>Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here >>Date: 5 Sep 1996 16:28:26 GMT >>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >>: If those co-conspirators would identify themselves rather than begging >>: off from any claim of active participation then they can be named in >>: the lawsuit against Nizkor. >>: >>: They vanish the instant the lawsuit is mentioned. >>Matt, you don't even read this stuff, do you? Every holohugger on >>this list has BEGGED you to include him or her in the "lawsuit against >>Nizkor." I'm begging you right now--please, please, please include >>me in the lawsuit against Nizkor. I haven't done any work for them, >>but if you'll promise to include me in the "lawsuit," I'll pony up >>some pages immediately. >Me, too! Me, too! And can you sue a bunch of my friends, as well? Florida >is so nice in January... I will forward your name also. BTW: Please provide a serving address ALL OF YOU. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:57 PDT 1996 Article: 62882 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!nntp.reed.edu!sun.lclark.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!cornellcs!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 08:00:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <50m1bs$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <841759139snz@drmac.demon.co.uk> <322c52fb.11071821@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <50jg9j$g04@jupiter.nowcom.com> <322d937a.7837028@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 1:01:00 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:273938 alt.conspiracy:85587 alt.revisionism:62882 alt.society.conservatism:51475 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:371284 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28585 alt.politics.perot:54743 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:40:15 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >jboswell@enterprise.net (Boz) wrote: >>gary.nt@ix.netcom.com (ZB) wrote: >> >>>On Tue, 03 Sep 96 13:58:59 GMT, "Duncan R. MacMillan" >>> wrote: >> >>>> How much is Saddam Hussein being paid to conduct his bomb-dropping >>>>escapades at such a convenient time? >>>> >>>> >>>>--- >>>>D. MacMillan >>>> "Usenet Enquirer". >> >>>If you're implying that our retaliatory strikes have some political >>>considerations, it might make sense if Clinton were 20 points behind >>>rather than 20 points ahead. >> >>Are you serious? A president prepared to go to war just so he can get >>elected? Get real. Not even in America. >> >>Boz > Who knows if this may be true. Yet the newspapers are carrying >this theme. > They carry the theme that the candidates should do this or that >to curry the Jewish vote. > The Jews make up only two percent or less of the American >population so I wonder what they're talking about. The electoral college votes of New York State. And of course good media coverage. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:58 PDT 1996 Article: 62884 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Thinks that U.S. Courts are part of the Inquisition Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:24:04 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 126 Message-ID: <50ou4m$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50mbvr$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50mjnm$m7v@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:24:22 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 13:14:30 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> Right here. It was posted. We have been over this. Look it up. > The complete report was not posted here. I posted only the >conclusions. The acutal report runs about 100 pages. So post the rest since you have it. You have posted incomplete material but there is no reason to assume you are being honest in your claim about the rest. Particularly since Elie Weisel and Simon Wiesenthal both support my position, that you are wrong. >> > Larson's complete report was used at trial. It is generally available from >> >several public sources as it was later made a part of the Congressional >Record. >> >He described that which he saw. It included operating gas chambers and >> >victims of those gas cahmbers. > >> Let us examine the prima facia value of your claim. > >> You claim that he described an operating gas chamber. You therefore >> claim that the US Army was permitting a gas chamber to continue >> operating for him to observe. > No such claim was made. The gas chamber was in place; he >examined it. Look above. You claim he observed operating gas chambers. Only a holohugger can believe it is possible to observe an operating gas chamber that is not operating (and which all authorities now agree never existed.) >Cadavers were present. He made observations about them and >rendered a medical opinion as to the casue of death. What is so hard to >understand. Please try to stay sober when you are reading. But even holohuggers agree in their wildest imaginations that the gassing stopped months before the camp was liberated and that the bodies were cremated after being gassed. (Even though it is only the wildest-eyed holohuggers who still believe there was any gassing.) So there were no cadavers unless you are claiming he autopseyed crematoria ashes but never wrote up a report of his methods. That is quite the pity as it is beyond today's forensic abilities to do that. A great scientist, clear years before his time. >> > You have a very odd view as to how trials are conducted. > >> But I do know how they were conducted. And I also know that someone >> like you who claims to be an attorney supports courts like this. > You have no knowledge as to how they were conducted. That is because they were not conducted else there would be reports. You have >proven this time and again with your lies. For example, your statements that >convicitions were obtained and men executed for the Katyn Forest Massacre >and your statement that Hoess was acquitted. I said Hoess was acquitted in his first trial in Poland. I have only challenged you folks to find the reason why. (Hint: The court broke ranks and required physical evidence. You find physical evidence of what.) And while we are at dishonest, you deleted the following description of the kind of court you find up to the highest standards of jurisprudence. As a highly educated attorney it is only a commentary upon the decline of the justice system in the US that you find the following to ber proper court procedure. ----- And if defense witnesses should get carried away and presume to claim that they know nothing of gas chambers, and perhaps even dare to dispute their existence, then the least that will happen to them is that they are declared unreliable. Even the Judge himself may become abusive.260 But how the Judges change their tune in those exceptional cases where a former SS-man 'confesses': "A valuable witness, one of the few who confirm at least some of what everyone knows anyhow."261 Indeed, the author has hit the nail on the head! Since everything is "judicially noticed" and considered self-evident anyhow, it would be much easier to dispense with all the laborious proceedings and simply hand down the verdict as soon as the witnesses for the prosecution have had their say. The courts frequently conclude from these circumstances that witnesses for the defense cannot contribute anything of value to an investigation anyhow, and thus disregard their testimony or even dispense with summoning them in the first place.262 260 Cf. B. Naumann, op. cit. (Note ), p. 265; I. Mller-Mnch, op. cit. (Note ), p. 107: "What all do you think you can make this Court believe? I will dispense with any further testimony of yours.", also pp. 116, 172. 261 H. Lichtenstein, op. cit. (Note ), p. 56; op. cit. (Note ), pp. 72f.: "[...] the Chief of the District Court said, well, we get this sort of witness too sometimes. 'Thank God!', one might add." ----- The point is that you support the idea that the court can take judicial note of the guilt of the defendents pleading not guilty and conduct the proceedings accordingly. But then, you are an attorney. You believe this to be a fair trial. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:23:59 PDT 1996 Article: 62885 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2 Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:56:09 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 68 Message-ID: <50osgb$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50lpd3$pvc@juliana.sprynet.com> <322f4374.6312405@news.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 4:56:27 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 21:23:15 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >>Concerning the alleged autopsies performed by Dr. Larson, as well as the numbers >>of people who died at Belsen after liberation: rblackmore wrote: >>> > I don't need to look up his report. >>> >>> Why not, Herr Schwarzesel? Not interested in the truth, but in simply >>> running off at the mouth? How unsuprising. >>> >>> > You are the one making accusations that there were autopsies done on people >>> > who had allegedly been gassed. >>> >>> It's not an accusation, Herr Schwarzesel. It's simply quoting what Dr. >>> Larson said: >>> >>>(Irrelevant drivel snipped) >>> >>> Herr Schwarzesel, please note the part: "But, in my opinion, only >>> relatively few of the inmates I personally examined,..... >> >>I am not interested in his opinions. I want to see the autopsy reports which >>prove conclusively that the presence of cyanide was found in these people >>after forensic testing. That is what will convince me. Do you have it? >I have to drop my civility here for a moment. Look, Mr. Belling, you >were informed that gassing was NOT (N-O-T) used to the extent that it >was at Auschwitz. If it was used 1000 times at Auschwitz then I agree, 1000 times 0 is still zero. >The majority if the EXTERMINATION CAMPS used car >exhaust. Yet there has not been one credible eyewitness report, not one bit of forensic evidence and no signs of human remains in the quantity required and the one report from Treblinka is an obvious fraud. But you know that. One you allow yourself to understand the differences between >concnetration camps in Germany vs. the extermination camps in Poland >we might be able be on the same page. It will take a bit of learning >on your part to do this. Can you manage this simple distinction? 1000 times 0 is still zero. No physical evidence. Only tales from the likes of Bomba the Barber with around 100 people in a 12x12 foot gas chamber, most of them seated, while he cut their hair, exclusively fhe hair of naked females to give you an idea of his perverted imagination. You would have thought Treblinka could have afforded a larger gas chamber. But then from his description of it, we know 800,000 is impossible. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:00 PDT 1996 Article: 62886 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:27:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 46 Message-ID: <50p1rm$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <322ef64b.7254109@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 6:27:50 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 15:51:15 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > >Three more names requesting to be put on the list of those endorsing >McVay's statement about Moran's sister. >>Those already signed on are: >> >>1. Chuck Ferree >> >>2. Joel Rosenberg >> >>3. Danny Mittleman >> >>4. Jamie McCarthy >> >>5. Keith Morrison >> >>6. Yale Edeiken >> >>7. Ken McVay, reiterating >> >8. Mike Curtis >> >9. Richard Graves >> >10. Mark VanAlstine And if by chance you have a sister and she wishes she can sue them all independently for libel. She is not a party to this conference and such there is no defense against the charge of libel. And YFE will lose his license over it. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:00 PDT 1996 Article: 62898 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: another question Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:44:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 445 Message-ID: <50ovbg$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <50mdb4$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <5SEP199606222332@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:45:04 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 06:22 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <50mdb4$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>On 4 Sep 1996 06:44 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny >>Mittleman) wrote: >> >>>In article <50jjd9$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>>>On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:55:46 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) >>>>wrote: >>>> >>>>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>>> >>>>># When does Israel plan to prosecute the witnesses against >>>>># Demjanjuk for perjury? >>>> >>>>>Can you prove that they are guilty of perjury? >>>> >>>> He was not in the camp described. Therefore they lied. What is so >>>>hard about that? >> >>> It's hard becuase it is inconsistent with other assertions you have >>> posted. Didn't you just a day or so ago post that eyewitness testimony >>> given fifty years after the fact is necessarily polluted? Didn't you >>> yourself say that even if these people THINK they are telling the >>> truth, it is impossible to separate the truth from what they have been >>> told during the intervening 50 years? >> >> Excuse me. I was unaware you believe everyone related to the >>prosecution in this case should be brought up on charges of malicious >>prosecution and abuse of process. >> >> OK, fine with me. >> >> But the bottom line is who is going to spend years in jail for this >>known travesty of justice in any civilized country? >> >>> Did you notice that even though people here jump on most everything you >>> say, no one jumped on that particular point? So why do you contradict >>> it now? >> >> I was waiting for someone like you to admit the Israeli government was >>involved in malicious prosecution of Demjanjuk. I chose the form of >>the first post in expectation of someone, now you, to hold that the >>Government of Israel is morally culpable of persecuting an innocent >>man. >> >> It is appreciated that you have pointed out there is no justice in >>Israel. > Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only interest > is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially plausible, he > has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while accusing others > of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to see posts which > contain documented refutation of his claims (even when they have been > emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted > himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity > that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and respond. > For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to: > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt > He is an anti-semite too. To wit: >>There's no business like Shoah Business >>Like no business I know. >>Everything about it is appealing, >>Everything that traffic will allow. >>No where can you get that happy feeling >>Then when your stealing >> > daniel david mittleman >=========================================================================== > For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project > Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ > North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ > (Under construction - permanently!) Yes, little one, you have been caught between your denial and your excuse and rather than admit that there is no justice in Israel you have only the silly little shit mantra of OBE, the US DOD employee. On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:01 PDT 1996 Article: 62901 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!scramble.lm.com!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:17:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <50omn2$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <322F5EBD.3FDB@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 3:17:38 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:99149 alt.revisionism:62901 alt.politics.white-power:42139 soc.culture.europe:47599 soc.culture.german:85160 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 16:41:34, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote: >In article <322F5EBD.3FDB@ix.netcom.com> Kevin Alfred Strom writes: >>From: Kevin Alfred Strom >>Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? >>Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 16:14:05 -0700 >>Christian Bau wrote: >>> ... >>> >>> Ask any German: In Germany, you have the right of free speech. In Germany, >>> you dont have the right to spread nazi propaganda. These two things have >>> nothing, absolutely nothing to do with each other. >>I can think of no more perfect example of Orwellian doublethink than >>this. >>In Germany, you have the right to free speech, as long as it is speech >>that the (occupation) government approves of. >Well, no. The unfettered free speech provided by our Constitution is unusual >on this planet. Most countries that one reasonably thinks of as free -- >Canada, the UK, New Zealand, France, for example -- don't go to quite such >extremes. >I think that is, perhaps, unfortunate, but it's hard to argue that it should >be the choice of some Minneapolis nazi bozo as to what the laws in Germany >restricting the spread of nazi propaganda ought to be. Why should the propaganda of one party be prohibited while the propaganda of other parties is permitted? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:02 PDT 1996 Article: 62904 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: worth repeating Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:25:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 411 Message-ID: <50p57m$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50mfcn$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:25:26 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:22:20 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Matt Giwer still hasn't commented on the outright lie he posted. >To remind: > From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 1 10:45:38 EDT 1996 > Article: 116072 of alt.revisionism > Xref: world alt.revisionism:116072 > Newsgroups: alt.revisionism > Subject: Keeping the Belsen myths going > Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:45:46 GMT > >In Lueneburg, Germany, a Jewish physician, testifying at the >trial of 45 men and women for war crimes at the Belsen and >Oswiecim [Auschwitz] concentration camps, said that 80,000 >Jews, representing the entire ghetto of Lodz, Poland, had been >gassed or burned to death in one night at the Belsen camp. > >This is a lie; a common type of lie from Nazis who deny the >Holocaust - they lie and misquote witnesses, in order to make >them appear unreliable; since there was no such mass gassing >in Belsen, Giwer is trying to make it appear as if a witness >said there was such gassing, in order to "prove" that this >witness was lying. >Giwer can try and tell us who this witness was. In fact, a Jewish >doctor by the name of Bendel did testify about the murder by >gas of the Lodz Jews, but he said it took place in Birkenau, >not Belsen, and he didn't say they were all gassed in one >night. >Matt Giwer is a pathological liar; the above is just one example. >Never believe anything he says, before you check a reliable >source. He is, plain and simple, a lying piece of scum, pardon >my French. >-Danny Keren. On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ o ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:03 PDT 1996 Article: 62905 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Malzemueller Testifies About Chelmno Death Camp Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:25:48 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 407 Message-ID: <50p597$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:26:15 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:33:37 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >SS-man Theodor Malzmueller on the Chelmno extermination camp >[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The >Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 217-219] >----------------------------------------------------------------- >When we arrived we had to report to the camp commandant, >SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Bothmann. The SS-Haupsturmfuehrer addressed us in >his living quarters, in the presence of SS-Untersturmfuehrer Albert >Plate. He explained that we had been dedicated to the Kulmhof >[Chelmno] extermination camp as guards and added that in this camp the >plague boils of humanity, the Jews, were exterminated. We were to >keep quiet about everything we saw or heard, otherwise we would have >to reckon with our families' imprisonment and the death penalty... >The extermination camp was made up of the so-called "castle" and the >camp in the woods. The castle was a fairly large stone building at the >edge of the village of Kulmhof. It was there that the Jews who had >been transported by lorry or railway were first brought... >When a lorry arrived the following members of the SS-Sonderkommando >addresses the Jews: (1) camp commandant Bothmann, (2) Untersturmfuehrer >Albert Plate from North Germany, (3) Polizei-Meister Willy Lenz from >Silesia, (4) Polizei-Meister Alois Haeberle from Wuerttenberg. They >explained to the Jews that they would first of all be given a bath and >deloused in Kulmhof and then sent to Germany to work. The Jews then >went inside the castle. There they had to get undressed. After this >they were sent through a passage-way on to a ramp to the castle yard >where the so-called "gas-van" was parked. The back door of the van >would be open. The Jews were made to get inside the van. This job was >done by three Poles, who I believe were sentenced to death. The Poles >hit the Jews with whips if they did not get into the gas vans fast >enough. When all the Jews were inside the door was bolted. The driver >then switched on the engine, crawled under the van and connected a >pipe from the exhaust to the inside of the van. The exhaust fumes now >poured into the inside of the truck so that the people inside were >suffocated... > >-Danny Keren. On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:04 PDT 1996 Article: 62906 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Burmeister Testifies About Chelmno Death Camp Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:26:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 402 Message-ID: <50p5a6$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:26:46 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:35:30 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Testimony of gas-van driver Walter Burmeister >[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The >Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 219-220] >------------------------------------------------------------ >As soon as the ramp had been erected in the castle, people started >arriving in Kulmhof from Lizmannstadt in lorries... The people were >told that they had to take a bath, that their clothes had to be >disinfected and that they could hand in any valuable items beforehand >to be registered... >When they had undressed they were sent to the cellar of the castle and >then along a passageway on to the ramp and from there into the >gas-van. In the castle there were signs marked "to the baths". The gas >vans were large vans, about 4-5 meters long, 2.2 meter wide and 2 >meter high. The interior walls were lined with sheet metal. On the >floor there was a wooden grille. The floor of the van had an opening >which could be connected to the exhaust by means of a removable metal >pipe. When the lorries were full of people the double doors at the >back were closed and the exhaust connected to the interior of the >van... >The Kommando member detailed as driver would start the engine right >away so that the people inside the lorry were suffocated by the >exhaust gases. Once this had taken place, the union between the >exhaust and the inside of the lorry was disconnected and the van was >driven to the camp in the woods were the bodies were unloaded. In the >early days they were initially burned in mass graves, later >incinerated... I then drove the van back to the castle and parked it >there. Here it would be cleaned of the excretions of the people that >had died in it. Afterwards it would once again be used for gassing... >I can no longer say what I thought at the time or whether I thought of >anything at all. I can also no longer say today whether I was too >influenced by the propaganda of the time to have refused to have >carried out the orders I had been given. On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:05 PDT 1996 Article: 62910 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: I have a question Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:19:07 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 22 Message-ID: <50p4sc$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50m2tl$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:19:24 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:16:32 -0600, bodhi@sattva.org (Bodhisattva) wrote: >In article <50m2tl$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> The holohugger commonly present without evidence that questioning >> holocaust promotes the hatred of Jews. >This is a false claim. Nobody says this. What have they said, oh idiot handle? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:05 PDT 1996 Article: 62918 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:00:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 58 Message-ID: <50p7an$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322C45E8.3F54@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50jsbq$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <841880275.4944@dejanews.com> <50m6e7$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <322FFC53.2781@itsa.ucsf.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 8:01:11 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 03:26:27 -0700, Brian Harmon wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On 4 Sep 1996 23:58:05 GMT, brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu wrote: >> >Whether or not you think they're deluded, there still are >> > people called priests, rabbis, and wiccans. >> >> It only works that way if words and titles have no meaning. An LEO >> enforces the law. A scientist does science. A priest has an empty >> title as there is nothing for him to do that is more than any >> charlatan can do. >And priests or rabbis performs the rites of their respective religions, > matt, whether you believe in god or you don't. Save that these "religions" are no different from scientology and the "rites" have no greater meaning than those of a snake worshippper. In general, they are called idiots on the practicing and the believing side. >I'm not quite sure why you've gone on this millitant atheism rant, > most athiests are quite content to leave religious figures well > enough alone. Save that in this case I am being hit by people who pretend there is something sacred by being Jewish, which is nonsense, and by those who think their birth mother means something. I reserve the right to deal with primatives as primatives. These Jews and supporters of Jews here believe in either what has never existed or they belief in birth mother meaning something which is equally ridiculous. The entire idea of anything ever happening to Jews is only against those who decided they were of the arbitrary and capricious category called Jews that had no other meaning whatsoever other than self identification. No greater real meaning than being a Mason or a Boy Scout or an Elk. That is the way it really is according to Alec. A Jew, a Moose, no difference. And Alec puts the best light on things like this. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:24:06 PDT 1996 Article: 62922 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!news.ums.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Thinks that U.S. Courts are part of the Inquisition Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:08:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <50ot6j$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50m2u2$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com> <50mjca$m7v@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:08:19 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 13:08:26 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> rblackmore@juno.com writes: >> > Odd. I thought the Federal Rules of Evidence (Rule 703 is posted >> > elsewhere) were written for U.S. courts. > >> > You have a very odd view as to how trials are conducted. >> "Describing" that which he "saw" is not evidence of cyanide poisoning. >Where are >> the autopsy reports and list of tests done to confirm the cause of death as >cyanide? > "'Describing' that which he 'saw'" is exactly what an autopsy report is. If and ONLY IF it is of the body being autopseied and there are no such reports. > Have you ever seen one? I have read dozens. >When a qualified expert gives an opinion based on >his own observation, it is evidence. Which of course he presents within the report. First in forensic terms on the cover sheet and then in medical terms in the body of the report. >Larson's report was based upon numerous >autopsies and inspections of cadavers which he performed. Cyanide poisoning >is fairly easily determined by an expert It is good to see you admit that there are no autopsey reports. None were prepared or presented. None exist. It is also good to see that an attorney such as yourself would be suprised to see one in a criminal case. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 07:43:18 PDT 1996 Article: 28591 of alt.politics.nationalism.white Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Kan Kleim Klean up his act? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:40:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50p646$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <508150$4e@jerry.loop.net> <50chbi$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50gn0o$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50itvg$e31@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <50kda3$klu@jerry.loop.net> <50kgaa$sr4@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50m3bn$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <50n2pp$bq7@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50nrch$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <50o15f$c09@news1.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:40:38 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28591 alt.politics.white-power:42146 alt.revisionism:62930 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 04:18:59 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On 5 Sep 1996 17:31:37 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c >>anderson) wrote: >>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >>>: That is because, without cause, I was libelled in a manner that is >>>: worthy of being answered in blood. >>>: >>>: And you must remember that blood libels justify any response. >>>Let's be perfectly clear on this, Matt. No shilly-shallying, okay? >>>Are you saying that you would be justified in killing anyone who >>>called you an antisemite? >>>Are you threatening to do so? >> I am calling it a blood libel. What does that mean to you? >It means the ludicrous assumption that Jewish people kill Christian >children to make matzohs. >That's what "blood libel" is, traditionally. No differently than calling someone a nazi or antisemite. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:37 PDT 1996 Article: 62933 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!gatech!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Oprah Winfrey next week Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:52:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <50pab4$qvp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 6:52:36 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 She investigates the holocaust. Mon: Expresses sympathy for survivors who heare maniacal laughtere over fighter plane engines. Tues: Sympathizes with those who saw the faces of the pilots through closed wagons. Wed: Chews the fat with the soap makers. Thurs: Lays Gerry Rivers and dances naked on stage. Fri: Stuffs 100 people into a phone booth in commemoration of the gas chambers. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:39 PDT 1996 Article: 62935 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Kan Kleim Klean up his act? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:43:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <50p69m$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <508150$4e@jerry.loop.net> <50chbi$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50gn0o$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <50itvg$e31@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <50m37c$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <50nujs$ve@decaxp.harvard.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:43:34 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28594 alt.politics.white-power:42148 alt.revisionism:62935 On 6 Sep 1996 01:26:20 GMT, slking@fas.harvard.edu (Stewart King) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >: And you do this despite your knowledge that any newcomer, no matter >: how quiet his approach, who continues to disagree is blood libeled by >: holohuggers. And as you know any indentification a person in nay >: manny with nazi or antisemitic is a blood libel -- meaning as do the >: holohuggers, that it is worthy of being answered in blood. >All content aside, how can you still respect yourself using a word like >"holohuggers?" I mean, it sounds like you see them as 3-D projections of >Bob Packwood walking toward you saying "Hey, honey, have you got those >'briefs' I asked you about?" As you know, communication requires some word to describe the phenomenon. It is like a latter day Roman describing those who believed the Christians were persecuted as persecution-huggers. No different as the belief that they were persecuted was not limited to Christians but included many sympathetic Romans. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:40 PDT 1996 Article: 62936 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten again Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:44:20 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <50p6bm$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4vpt6e$taj@Vir.com> <50m9mi$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50nrli$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:44:38 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 06:35:01 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># As has been discussed in depth here, the polish ># report is worthless as it has only one data point. >No, it has more data points. Only one, it has been exposited. Look it up. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:41 PDT 1996 Article: 62937 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:19:48 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 93 Message-ID: <50pbun$qvp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50mf7s$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50o8h3$28s@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:20:07 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 04:15:31 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> It is great to read so many people support criminal copyright >> violation and conspiract to same. > Violations of the copyright law are not criminal violations. > >> Even Edeiken knows that the legislative history of "educational >> purposes" does not support Nizkor but he publically posts a legal >> opinion that such copyright violation is within the law. > This is an outright lie. People who have followed your advice so far have admitted to conspiracy should the violation be found. > I have never posted a legal opinion on copyright law. I have never >given one privately. There is a simple reason for this. The Copyright Law was >radically amended in 1988 to conform with the Berne Convention and I had not >even read it until this morning. That will be between you and those who think they read if from you. I am not a party to your protestation. > What I found is that you were lying. First, the "legistlative history" is not >quite relevant. The Historical Notes (taken From Notes of Committee on the >Judiciary, House report 94-1476 --- the relevant legislative history) printed with the >statute to explain it state: > "Section 107 is intended to restate the present judicial doctrine of fair use, not to >change, narrow, or enlarge it in any way." > Thus the judicial interpretation of "fair use" which was *never* restricted >to classroom use is very relevant as legislative history. > It should be noted that the Report also states " . . . the endless variety of >situations and combinations of circumstances that can rise in particular cases >precludes the formulation of exact rules in the statute. The bill endorses the >purpose and general scope of the judicial doctrine of fair use, but there is no >disposition to freeze the doctrine in the statute, especially during a period of rapid >technological change. Beyond a very broad statutory explanation of what is fair >use is and some of the criteria applicable to it, the courts must be free to adapt the >doctrine to particular situations on a case-by-case basis." > The report later states: "Although the works and uses to which the >doctrine of fair use is applicable are as broad as the copyright law itself, most of the >discussion of section 107 has centered around questions of classroom >reproduction, particularly photocopying" > It defines the scope of the section as being: "the comittee has not only >adopted further amendments to section 107 but has also amended section 504 (c) >to provide innocent teachers and other non-profit users of copyrighted material with >broad insulation against unwarranted liability for infringement." > Perhaps it is me, but the normal English interpretation of the phrase >"innocent teachers and other non-profit users" would indicate that the legislative >history is *not* limited to classroom situations. > I notice that you announce what the "legislative history" is but do not >quote it so that others may see what you are talking about. In this case, of course, >the "legislative history" would include the judicial precedents which it specifically >embodies. A quick check of the annotations revealed no holding that fair use is >limited, as you state, to classrooms. Several of the cases applied in to >non-classroom situations. > I would ask for some citations of the cases that support your >interpretation, but that is a fruitless exercise. It is apparent that you do not know >what you are talking about. > >> It is just one more thing to report the the Penn SC. > Please do. Please tell them that I am an evil person because I quoted >the legislative history that directly contradicts you ipse dixit statement. Your >deposition on that point should be very humorous. > I can't wait. > --YFE ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:41 PDT 1996 Article: 62938 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!mcsun!EU.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: info Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:39:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 52 Message-ID: <50p9is$qvp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 6:39:40 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 10:49:17 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote in alt.revisionism: >> <> >> I'm not much on putting porno on the newgroup, but I can track it down >> if you want the trash posted. >I think this is necessary. What you have to keep in mind in that holohuggers truly sexual sadists. There was nothing more revealing that seeing Streiker called a pornographer when all he wrote was rather amusingly inane nonsense but that the holohuggers called it pornography. Holohuggers really are turned on, have a purient interest, in this sort of thing. They love the idea of suffering and pain. They wallow in it. They get glazed eyes just thinking about it. This is something they love, something erotic to them. If you challenge their holocaust you challenge their sex life. If you challenge their holocaust you challenge all of their sexual fanstasies. If you take away their holocaust you take away their surrogate sex life. That is the way the holohuggers are. It is the fine art of suffering developed over a thousand years, two thousand even. No matter how laughable, absurd and ridiculous it is, it is inculcated from birth. And as you have seen, defended widely here by atheists who should know better. They can not escape the way they were raised despite reality. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:42 PDT 1996 Article: 62940 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:29:55 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50onej$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50hc5d$dfi@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50js92$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50k7up$q9i@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50m652$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <50muoq$avv@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 3:30:11 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 16:22:50 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: Accurate descriptions are not name calling. >Good. You're a half-literate anti-semitic lying troll, Matt. >No name-calling there. No, sir. It does not bother me, holohugger. Now stop making some kind of issue of it when I give accurate descriptions. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:43 PDT 1996 Article: 62948 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news.bc.net!torn!news.bconnex.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Morons are biting! Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:54:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 78 Message-ID: <50mf1g$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <3SEP199620370455@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322d7d1a.2108680@news.pacificnet.net> <322DFB40.3577@unb.ca> <50l5h2$qbu@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:54:24 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 17:05:54 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <322DFB40.3577@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison wrote: >>Tell you what, Moran, go ask your friend Giwer. He likes Python. He'll >>explain it to you. >Some minor nits to pick: >1. Mr. Giwer has no friends. >2. Mr. Giwer is demonstrably incapable of explaining anything. >3. Mr. Moran is demonstrably incapable of understanding it, anyway > - he refuses to update his collander, which is still running 0.6b. >-- >The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/search.html >-----------------------| http://search.nizkor.org/search.html > |-------------------------------------- >Bored? Try http://www.nizkor.org/giwerundean-lesson.cgi Whois Ken McVay? === McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA 462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8 CA 1-604-382-0615 Record last updated on 18-Jul-96. The InterNIC Registration Services Host contains ONLY Internet Information (Networks, ASN's, Domains, and POC's). Please use the whois server at nic.ddn.mil for MILNET Information. ===== The following was deleted from nic.ddn.mil some time between 17 July 1996 and 19 August 1996. However, as of 19 August 1996 the email address still worked. It was originally captured on 17 July 1996. It disppeared just prior to a 256 copy mailbomb from gryn.org saying that it was false information. The owner of gryn.org, Alec Grynspan, openly brags about having been in the Mossad, i.e. Israeli intelligence. === McVay, Ken (KM214) 1B Systems Management Limited 5-1601 Bowen Road Nanaimo, British Columbia V9S 1G7 CA (604) 758-2499 kmcvay@oneb.wimsey.bc.CA Record last updated on 02-Apr-96. Please be advised that this whois server only contains DOD Information. All INTERNET Domain, IP Network Number, and ASN records are kept in the Internet Registry, RS.INTERNIC.NET. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:44 PDT 1996 Article: 62951 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Does the "A-Team" get paid? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:18:43 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 54 Message-ID: <50p8c5$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <3229a8cf.314665@news.pacificnet.net> <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net> <50mauf$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50nsa8$1ui@orion.cybercom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 8:19:01 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 96 00:47:11 GMT, amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan Matthews) wrote: >> On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:21:01 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >> >> >In article <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net>, amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan >> >Matthews) wrote: >> >[speaking of Tom Moron] > > >> Perhaps he's autistic - many of them like to bang their heads against a wall > >> endlessly. > >> > >> Besides, one defining aspect of autism is being caught up in your own > >> fantasies and therefore being detached from reality. That certainly sounds > >> like Moron to me. >>Allan: >> >>My son, who is autistic, deeply resents this statement. >I'm sorry if I offended him. However, there are autistics who do bang their >heads on walls, just as some autistics (note the wording I used above) occupy >a fantasy world. This is a defining aspect of autism just as being suicidal >is a defining aspect of clinical depression - it does not mean that all >autistics are in a fantasy world just as it does not mean that all clinically >depressed people are suicidal. >If I'm factually wrong here please let me know. I will tell you where you are wrong. The child is reported to be 9 years old. The child is reported to resent comments in this conference. The child is reported to be following this conference to the point of being able to resent remarks here. I would question that even a brilliant non-handicapped 9 year old could follow this conference. And if he can, where are his posts? But what do we have here? A mother speaking for a handicapped child claiming he "resents" something but can not type it in for himself. It is bullshit. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:44 PDT 1996 Article: 62960 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:04:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50p7hp$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322F5DB3.47A0@unb.ca> <50o3tt$28s@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 8:04:57 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 02:57:01 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> Keith Morrison writes: >> Now why would Matt have ever attended a WorldCon? According to his >> own words, all science fiction is garbage. > I have no idea. The fact remains that he bragged about being a >member of several. There can be only one to be a member of. It is the one for the particular convention. One would expect an attorney to understand the legal niceties of how it is organized. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:45 PDT 1996 Article: 62965 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Gas-tight doors Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:14:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 109 Message-ID: <50p849$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <500pqb$a0r@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <50jo14$6n3@morgana.netcom.net.uk> <50jtbd$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50p3k2$2de@morgana.netcom.net.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 8:14:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:00:41 GMT, amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M. McLellan) wrote: >In article <50jtbd$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:12:15 GMT, amcl@netcomuk.co.uk (Angus M. >>McLellan) wrote: > >>>For the uninitiated, Mr Giwer is rehashing the "historian" Butz's >>>latest means of explaining away the gas chambers. >> For mongoloid idiots like you, I have never read Butz. If I have come >>to the same conclusion it is because it is so obvious. Anyone with a >>minimal education should see it. >I did not suggest that Giwer had read Butz :- Butz's newest arguments >were presented in this newsgroup recently. As far as I am aware, the >Butzian opus containing these arguments is as yet unavailable. In any >case, plagiarism - especially where Giwer is concerned - is a great >deal easier to credit than serendipity. Since then and now I have come across something of his suggesting the secondary use of the LK was as bomb shelters. As you know, I represented that months ago. It appears to be a matter of who is leading the charge here. If he keeps up with me, good luck to him. >>>I'm afraid that anyone with any knowledge of Germany's civil defence >>>programme in the WWII era will laugh this one out of court. >> I have seen the IMT courts and it is only the IMT courts that were >>laughable and should have been executed on the spot. >Giwer replies with unsubstantiated assertion irrelevant to the subject >at hand; what else is new ? I have posted many of them here. If you misse them, there is DejaNews. >>>Let's look at the evidence. >>>Case 1 : the UK >>>Gas masks were issued to every single person from a very early period >>>in the war (in theory before the began). That means everyone, adults >>>to infants. >>>Air-raid shelters in the UK were _not_ airtight. Look at pictures, do >>>they look air-tight ? Are underground railway tunnels air-tight ? >>>Case 2: the Thousand Year Reich >>>In Germany, at no time were gas masks issued to all of the population. >>>Possibly something to do with DF's belief in the "stab in the back" >>>myth. >>>A cursory reading of accounts of the Hamburg and Dresden firestorms >>>suggests that air-raid shelters were less than air-tight. >>>Can Mr Giwer (or Mr Butz or any other apologist for Nazi Germany) >>>produce examples of air-tight doors fitted to shelters in Munich, in >>>Essen or in Stuttgart ? If not, what validity does Butz's argument >>>have ? What is Giwer's point in posting it (without even acknowledging >>>it's source) ? >> What is the point of introducing obvious engineering details of this >>matter? >What is the point of posting airy-fairy assertions to the effect that >homicidal gas chambers were gas-proof air raid shelters without the >least supporting evidence ? Sorry but even if engineering details were introduced you would not be able to comprehend them as you have no such knowledge or education. If you have specific questions I am willing to address them. As to this specific question we know from the Nizkor account that a "farmstead" and an "detention room" without any modification were suitable for gassing with ZB. It is unclear why you would want a specially designed room when these were quite adequate according to Nizkor. >> It is uneductated fools like you that bother me. Not regarding the >>holocaust but the economic future of America. Our educational system >>appears to produce only ignorant fools like you. >I am impressed by Mr Giwer's reply, especially the manner in which he >fails to answer a single point I raised. If Giwer believes that the >points raised are irrelevant, it is for Giwer to show that this is so. You should be impressed as it deals with physical data as opposed to hysterical witnesses who were not subject to cross examination. >"For evil doers must pay. Oracles and prophecies >Only deceive, if this dream is not now fulfilled." >Sophocles, Electra The superstitious are always among us. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:46 PDT 1996 Article: 62973 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!icarus.lon.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!insync!news.iag.net!news.math.psu.edu!news3.cac.psu.edu!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:57:03 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <50p02g$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net> <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607301703@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50kfr4$l9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50meih$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50mv5d$avv@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:57:20 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 16:29:33 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: How big is your gang of conspirators? It is good tht you note there >: is a gang and are only quibbling over the number of members in the >: conspiracy. >8,347 at last count, wasn't it, Ken? I mean, counting the guys >working on ways to counter tinfoil hats... We are actually only at McVay and two other prople and the two donation collectors to be named in the sequential lawsuits. That is a total of five, three individuals and two organizations. But if he is interested in naming more people than this they can always be added upon his say so. We just want the names of those who are serious co-conspirators. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:47 PDT 1996 Article: 62975 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Sloppy drunk again WASRe: Jewrassic Park Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:53:03 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50ovqv$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50h6j0$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <322ED6A5.21C4@ccnis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:53:19 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:33:25 -0400, Annie Alpert wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> JewRasic Park had been seeded with a miiiion US. It is good to see we> can indebt tuture generations for the fun of it. After all, we do it> to pay for the medical care of our parents, who not for the pet peeve> of Spielberg> >Matt, you have a serious problem with alcohol (drugs, too?). Do >yourself a favor and get some help! You are embarrassing yourself in >front of thousands of people, and it's painful to watch. Do you really think a silly goose like you can make any impression on me? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 10:59:47 PDT 1996 Article: 62976 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: another question Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:40:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50ov33$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <322C9C17.22AA@rio.com> <4SEP199606073620@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50kmaj$kl@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50md1t$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50mvh1$avv@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:40:35 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 16:35:45 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: On 4 Sep 1996 19:46:27 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c >: anderson) wrote: >: >This is in addition to the fact that Demjanjuk's defense was based >: >on his not being Ivan because he was actually a totally different >: >SS guard at another death camp. >: >: Which makes everyone ever involved with the Mossad murderers. >Wow! There must be a logical link in there somewhere, but I can't >find it... A guard is not a priori a criminal. Nor is being a member of the SS or a hirling of the SS. But if you claim that it is, being a member of a criminal organization like the Mossad or Murder Inc., then what I posted is correct. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 11:28:10 PDT 1996 Article: 62978 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:33:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 52 Message-ID: <50oumd$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50f48r$asf@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50m008$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com> <50n748$bq7@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:33:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 18:45:28 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >rblackmore@juno.com wrote: > >: To Mr. McVay, re: Streicher: I am not denying what he wrote...I >: am merely stating that it is unjust to kill people because of their >: opinions. >Try a little experiment, Mr. Blackmore. You probably know somebody >who isn't terribly stable and who has an tense relationship with, say, >his mother. Befriend this person. Everytime you see him, tell him >in the strongest possible terms that his mother is an agent of the >devil, and is planning his death. Tell him this over and over-- >really try to convince him. Make up lies about her that support >your argument. After you've got him hooked in, start implying that the >only way for him to save himself is to kill his mother before she kills >him. Really work on him. Suggest times and plans for killing her. >When he does it, go to the police and tell them exactly what you did. >Tell them that it was all just your opinion. See what happens. >Report back. Read what Steicher wrote. Measure the size of your erection. Report upon its pornographic nature. It may be a lot of things but it is not pornography ... unless ... my early speculation that all forms of expression of death, violence, blood and the like are a perverted turn-on to holohuggers and that is why they wax rhapsodic when discussing the way people died. That is the only explanation for considering such writings pornographic, exciting a purient interest. Holohuggers are very strange people. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 11:28:11 PDT 1996 Article: 62979 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: A minor question Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:38:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50ouvl$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fsoc$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50jilk$92f@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <322ECB6A.7CC4@serv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:38:45 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:45:30 +0000, Laurinda Stryker wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On Tue, 3 Sep 1996 05:51:02 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) >> wrote: >> >> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> ># Why is that didn't discover anything peculiar about >> ># Auschwitz until after the end of the war? >> >> >Indeed, a minor question from a very minor person, and a lie, >> >too; certainly, it was known before the end of the war what >> >was happening in Auschwitz. >> >> From Soviet liberators only. >[snip] >Mr. Giwer: In response to my request for sources re: your assertions >about Terezin, you replied, 'Read the frigging NG for further >details.' I suggest you heed your own advice; were you to do so, >you'd realize that this is indeed a lie. Ever since the holohuggers introduced the rule of "read it in DejaNews" the revionists have adopted the same rule. Follow it, or read for a few months until you are qualified to participate. You may also review any of the fine revisionist sites for the evidence of record. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 11:28:12 PDT 1996 Article: 62980 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer Subject: Re: Matt Giwer - privacy advocate (not!) Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:36:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50ousl$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fm22$kl2@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <50jee9$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <50nfjp$7f9@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:37:09 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:62980 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:527 On 5 Sep 1996 22:10:17 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> Who would harm anyone? The only organized harm I have seen in the >>news lately is by terrorist organizations such as the JDL and what >>would appear to be those with holohugger motives. > If anyone else made these claims, I would expect them to at least try >to provide evidence. But with a track-record like his, Matt Giwer is the _last_ >person I'd expect to even have evidence! It has been posted several times. You know where to look it up. >>He is safe from that unless they take a dislike to his DOD connections which >>he now announces in his "transcriptions" using the address of >>kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca. > How do I know that this entry was in the Milnet system where you >claim it was? Because you looked at the time. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 13:16:23 PDT 1996 Article: 62986 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Does the "A-Team" get paid? Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:44:09 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <50mauf$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <3229a8cf.314665@news.pacificnet.net> <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:44:31 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:21:01 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net>, amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan >Matthews) wrote: >[speaking of Tom Moron] >> Perhaps he's autistic - many of them like to bang their heads against a wall >> endlessly. >> >> Besides, one defining aspect of autism is being caught up in your own >> fantasies and therefore being detached from reality. That certainly sounds >> like Moron to me. >Allan: > >My son, who is autistic, deeply resents this statement. If he is, he can't. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 14:27:29 PDT 1996 Article: 63004 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:00:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50p09k$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net> <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607301703@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50meg5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50mv3a$avv@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 6:01:08 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 16:28:26 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: If those co-conspirators would identify themselves rather than begging >: off from any claim of active participation then they can be named in >: the lawsuit against Nizkor. >: >: They vanish the instant the lawsuit is mentioned. >Matt, you don't even read this stuff, do you? Every holohugger on >this list has BEGGED you to include him or her in the "lawsuit against >Nizkor." I'm begging you right now--please, please, please include >me in the lawsuit against Nizkor. I haven't done any work for them, >but if you'll promise to include me in the "lawsuit," I'll pony up >some pages immediately. I will forward your pleading to the interested party. Thank you for your time. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 6 18:43:23 PDT 1996 Article: 63015 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!bcarh189.bnr.ca!nrchh45.rich.nt.com!news.utdallas.edu!news01.aud.alcatel.com!gatech!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Stele: "I haven't a clue how many newspapers...." Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:02:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 422 Message-ID: <50mfhj$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4vsdrr$rqa@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <5007pa$ll5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <5065u8$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50ivrm$efr@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 7:02:59 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:12:02 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <50ivrm$efr@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck) wrote: >> Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >> >> [re: Israeli "control" of White House, Senate etc] >> : The very absense of physical evidence is proof >> : that it is true. >> >> Very nicely put. May I quote you the next time a holocaust denier says or >> writes "but no-one ever found a _written order_ from Hitler to kill all >> the Jews"? >Don't worry, Bob... I have this little gem in my quote file, and plan to >use it OFTEN in discussions (if you can call them that) with Mr. Giwer and >his compatriots. > >You'll be seeing it here again. > >Sara > >Like this: >In article <5065u8$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >>The very absense of physical evidence is proof that it is true. > >And lest we forget: > >"He who makes a claim bears the responsibility of supporting it." (Matt Giwer) > >And of course: > >"Never debate, only attack." (Matt Giwer) > >Which reminds me: >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/hweb/people/g/giwer.matt/ > >Sara >-- >"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it." > Edith Sitwell On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:25 PDT 1996 Article: 63098 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!guitar.sound.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: another question Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 10:41:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 39 Message-ID: <50ov5q$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fv7c$e3q@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <322C9C17.22AA@rio.com> <4SEP199621281650@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 5:42:02 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:44:41 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) writes: ># But there is, what? Seven inches difference in height? >Is this known? How do you know what "Ivan's" height was? ># And the photos were picked out 50 years after the fact. >The process started at 1981, didn't it? Also, were not much >older photos of demjanjuk presented? ># And there is some evidence he was at another camp? >Yes, that's true. But many SS-men were at more "Reinhard" >camp than one: Stangl, Lambert, Franz... > ># I am not asserting that Demjanjuk was not Ivan, I am merely ># asserting that there is some basis for reasonable doubt. >Which is why the Israeli court let him go. All the more your are proving either murder or malicious prosecution either of which is a criminal offense. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:26 PDT 1996 Article: 63107 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mem.bellsouth.net!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: More from the IMT follies Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 00:59:15 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <50qhdo$fu8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:59:36 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 THIS IS YOUR IMT -- The Bench Rules on Cross Examination DR THOMA: Witness, the Defendant Rosenberg assures me most definitely that has never been to the concentration camp at Dachau. Is it possible that there has been a mistake? BLAHA: I believe I am not mistaken. Besides, the German in question knew Rosenberg very well, I believe. DR THOMA: How do you know that? BLAHA: Because he told me so definitely. Otherwise, I have no way of knowing that. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma DR THOMA: Yes THE PRESIDENT: You will forgive me if I point out to you that this is intended to be an expeditious trial and that it is not right to take up too much time on small points like this. IMT V, p. 194 ===== Certified as proper court procedure by YFE ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:27 PDT 1996 Article: 63124 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!decwrl!news-ext.crl.dec.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!panix!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism,alt.society.conservatism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.perot Subject: Re: What the H*ll's left in Iraq to bomb, craters? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 00:43:58 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 17 Message-ID: <50ns4q$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cb8q$3de@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <841759139snz@drmac.demon.co.uk> <322c52fb.11071821@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <50jg9j$g04@jupiter.nowcom.com> <322d937a.7837028@news.pacificnet.net> <322dc10f.1291341@news.pacificnet.net> <322edbc1.460161@news.pacificnet.net> <50mrm9$i3s@uuneo.neosoft.com> <322ef4d0.6874907@news.pacificnet.net> <50n268$kih@uuneo.neosoft.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 7:44:10 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.usa.republican:274704 alt.conspiracy:85824 alt.revisionism:63124 alt.society.conservatism:51549 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:371874 alt.politics.nationalism.white:28655 alt.politics.perot:54839 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 17:16:30 GMT, brucew@phoenix.net (Bruce Wedding) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >>>There already is a movie about it tom. I can't recall the name, but >>>it is the one starring Meg Ryan. >>Really? If you recall the name, let me know. Thanks >Courage Under Fire starring Meg Ryan and Denzel Washington. That is like saying South Pacific is about WW II. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:28 PDT 1996 Article: 63136 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Kan Kleim Klean up his act? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 00:30:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <50nrcc$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <50kda3$klu@jerry.loop.net> <50kgaa$sr4@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50m3bn$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 7:31:08 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:38:27 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > ># That is because, without cause, I was libelled in a manner ># that is worthy of being answered in blood. > >What's this, Matty my boy? Yet another death threat? You're >posting about one per week, it seems. > >Wouldn't it be better to try to find a job? You retired >at the age of 46, 5 years ago. Maybe, if you put all your >power into it, you could still find a job of some sort. > >It may help your mental condition. > > >-Danny Keren. It is more interesting writing a book on the nonsense of the holohuggers. You folks have made it rather easy. You have pointed me to all kinds of ridiculous material and I have seen the best responses you can come up with. As for yourself, why don't you take some course work in computer science. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:28 PDT 1996 Article: 63143 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Who sides with Hitler? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:39:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 111 Message-ID: <50oo04$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 3:39:32 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Hitler and the 'Big Lie' It has been repeated so often that virtually no one bothers to challenge it: Adolf Hitler created and used the "Big Lie," one of his many evil techniques. As holds true for so many things we are told, this belief, too, must be examined to see the underlying truth. In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote: But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall [of Germany in WWI] precisely to the man who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betayerls of the Fatherland to Justice. All this was inspired by the principle -- which is quite true in itself -- that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper stata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily, and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying. These people know only too well how to use falsehood for the basest purposes. From time immemorial, however, the Jews have known better than any others how falsehood and calumny can be exploited. Is not their very existence founded on one great lie, namely, that they are a religious community, whereas in reality they are a race? And what a race! One of the greatest thinkers that mankind has produced has branded the Jews for all time with a statement which is profoundly and exactly true. He (Schopenhauer) called the Jew "The Great Master of Lies." Those who do not realize the truth of that statement, or do not wish to believe it, will never be able to lend a hand in helping Truth to prevail. Clearly, Hitler is not advocating the use of the "Big Lie," and, far >from creating it, he is in fact is ascribing the "Big Lie" technique to the Jews and Marxists. The "Big Lie" technique is Hitler's in the same fashion that Halley's Comet is Halley's -- not because either man was the inventor, but rather because he was the discoverer. Sources Adolf Hitler. Mein Kampf. James Murphy, translator. London, New York, Melbourne: Hurst and Blackett Ltd; April 1942; page 134. Or: Page 211 of the Mannheim translation, London: Hutchinson; 1969. Page 232 of the Houghton-Mifflin edition. ===== We have two interesting points here. The important one is addressed in the source. The second one is that Hitler firmly comes down on the side that one can be an atheist Jew. He must have had rabbinical training to have been so far ahead of his time. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:29 PDT 1996 Article: 63153 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:25:15 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 87 Message-ID: <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <50j470$em6@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> <50mf7s$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <5SEP199606345200@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 6:25:34 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 06:34 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <50mf7s$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>On 4 Sep 1996 05:31:12 GMT, rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck) wrote: >> >>>tom moran (tm@pacificnet.net) wrote: >>>[blah blah blah] >> >>>: DON'T MISS THIS OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW YOUR SUPPORT >>>: for Ken McVay, Director of the anti-hate Website, Nizkor, The >>>: Holocaust Educational Resource, endorsed by the U.S. Holocaust Museum, >>>: The Simon Wiesenthal Center and many other Institutions and Websites. >>>: -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >>>Sure, sign me up. I mean, I've never met Ken McVay, but I like his >>>website. (He's obviously a good troll^H^H^H^H^H fisherman too, but living >>>in Nanaimo, he should be!) >> >> It is great to read so many people support criminal copyright >>violation and conspiract to same. >> >> Even Edeiken knows that the legislative history of "educational >>purposes" does not support Nizkor but he publically posts a legal >>opinion that such copyright violation is within the law. >> >> It is just one more thing to report the the Penn SC. > What? You are making a threat to report him for offering a legal > opinion that you deem to be wrong? Most state bars have rather serious prohibitions against offering legal opinions in absense of a full and complete knowledge of the circumstances of the person (persons) in this case that it is being offered to. It is not a matter of my agreement. It is a matter of the propriety of the propriety of giving opinions under these circumstances. So far as I can see, he has already given opinions that have encouraged people to admit to conspiracy to libel with McVay in the event libel can be shown by McVay. Were it not for thier posts wanting to be included in the lawsuit then they would likely never have been named and even if named then conspiracy would have to have ben separately proved but no longer. So should anyone be caught in this they can recover their losses from his because of his public legal opinions. And that is why bar associations do not take kindly to such opinions. > You really went downhill since Grynspan started in on you. Grynspan wishes as do you. Nothing you > post anymore ever makes any sense (not that you were Shakespeare > before). Your posts seem to be divided between gibberish and idle > threats (this being an example of that latter). The rest of us learned > not to be afraid of such things when the third grade bully was put in > his place. You, somehow, never got that lesson, huh? > Well, keep posting. Grynspan's responses tearing you to shreads make > amusing reading... You keep reading them and keep posting about them. That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the idiocies of the holohuggers. I will post just enough to you folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time wasted. I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish. I have not posted to McFly in at least a week and he is still ranting about. It certainly keeps you folks from doing anything contructive. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:30 PDT 1996 Article: 63162 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Christian Revisionism Okay but for the Holocaust, "Hate" Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:16:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 82 Message-ID: <50p4n8$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <322d76e6.520963@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:16:40 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 12:40:34 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > > For the last two years there has been considerable commentary >appearing in main stream medias such as the L.A.Times, N.Y.Times, >Newsweek and Time Magazines on the validity of the most central points >of Christianity. And as I have noted, only two of a series of six, on one series indicating quite clearly that the Hebrews were never in Egypt and that all the Abraham and Moses stories are clearly fantasy. It is interesting the silence where there is clearly contrary evidence to all the claims of Judaism while there is only the absense of evidence regarding Christianity. Any rational journalist would hit both birds with one stone. In fact, as I pointed out, three birds including the muslims, with that one stone. Potshotting Christianity is child's play and it is the middle peg. Hitting muslims is simple even reading from the intro to the Koran, they were pirates of the desert until they took up the sword of conquest, not a religion at all but a long standing version or the LDS or Scientologists. But the foundation, Hebrews, Israelites, Judaism is left untouched. It is apparently different in some manner even though it is such an obvious subject. It is obvious due to the scientific information that Genesis through Exodus are completely contrary to known fact from numerous directions of research. (This is not to say that any of the later books are any better, simply that they lack contrary evidence.) Consider the world where Passover commemorates the suffering of the Hebrews in land where they never were. Consider a world where Moses never existed. Consider a world where Yahweh God did not requuire ritual sexual mutilation for tribal membership for males. Consider a world where there are not ten commandments and no mosaic law. Consider that is the world we life in. All of the last paragraph are no more than human created legend, superstition if you will. Of course were one interested in simply going into the times of lack of evidence, there were supposed to have been three kings of Israel. There is possibly one reference to David but scholars are unsure. There is no basis for any belief in any of the three other than that one reference. It is just one more human created religion no better than any other human created religion and certainly rather worthless compared to the Helenic Pantheon. Of course the "christian reported" worst of it is not supported by evidence either. And I am just an observer, not a researcher. Imagine what someone being paid to produce articles could turn up. But perhaps there is a negative market for three birds with one stone. We would expect at least an occasional "did Moses really part the Red Sea?" article? What do we get but pure bullshit natural explanations that are in fact bullshit. We do not get those articles. And the reason is that once one says he did not part the Red Sea the entire fictional narrative starts crumbling. This is not to day that it is all the doing of Jews. In fact it is idiot fundie chrisians who hold up the brunt of this charade. The fundies can live with losing a miracle here and there but if that Red Sea did not part it all goes to shit. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 09:23:31 PDT 1996 Article: 63177 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!newshost.cyberramp.net!news.onramp.net!newshost.convex.com!cnn.exu.ericsson.se!eua.ericsson.se!news.algonet.se!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!mcsun!EU.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:46:02 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <50meih$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net> <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607301703@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50kfr4$l9a@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 6:46:25 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 10:55:48 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <4SEP199607301703@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu>, >dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >> The Zionist Occupation Government (ZOG for short). I know we exist, I >> even have the t-shirt to prove it! >...while I, of course, has the photographs to prove it... >which will, be warned, appear on my home pages soon; all ZOG >agents will be identified, the plank will be shown, the >sharks. >You are not even in the Gang of Nine. >But you knew that. >-- >The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/search.html >-----------------------| http://search.nizkor.org/search.html > |-------------------------------------- >Bored? Try http://www.nizkor.org/giwerundean-lesson.cgi How big is your gang of conspirators? It is good tht you note there is a gang and are only quibbling over the number of members in the conspiracy. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 11:51:27 PDT 1996 Article: 63180 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Julius Streicher: Pornographer Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:13:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 66 Message-ID: <50pbj2$qvp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50f4fa$aut@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50okdv$t8c@juliana.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:13:54 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 07:38:39 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >> >> So these quotes served to condemn Streicher to death? >> >> Inge sits in the Jew doctor's reception room. She has to wait a >> long time. She looks through the magazines on the table. But she >> is much too nervous even to read a few sentences. Again and again >> she remembers her talk with her mother. And again and again her >> mind dwells on the warnings of her B D M leader: 'A German must >> not consult a Jew doctor! And particularly not a German girl! >> Many a girl who has gone to a Jew doctor to be cured has found >> disease and disgrace !' After entering the waiting-room, Inge had >> an extraordinary experience. From the doctor's consulting-room >> she could hear the sound of crying. She heard the voice of a >> young girl: 'Doctor, doctor, leave me alone!' Then she heard a man >> laughing scornfully. And then all of a sudden, absolute silence. >> Inge held her breath and listened. 'What can this mean ?' she >> asked herself and her heart was pounding. Once again she thought >> of her B D M leader's warning. Inge has now been waiting for an >> hour. She takes up the magazines again and tries to read. The >> door opens. Inge looks up. There stands the Jew. She screams. >> She's so frightened, she drops the magazine. She jumps up in >> terror. Her eyes stare into the Jewish doctor's face. His face >> is the face of a devil. In the middle of this devil's face is a >> huge crooked nose. Behind the spectacles two criminal eyes. And >> the thick lips are grinning. A grin that says: 'Now I've got you >> at last, little German girl !' The Jew approaches her. His fleshy >> fingers stretch out for her. But now Inge has recovered her wits. >> Before the Jew can grab hold of her, she slaps the Jew doctor's >> fat face. Then a jump to the door, and Inge runs breathlessly >> down the stairs. She escapes breathlessly from the Jew house...." >> (Noakes, 468-470) >This is pornography? Is this what Streicher was condemned to death for? >>By the way, I showed your documentation to a number of people, and most >of them thought the writings were hilarious...hardly anything to be put to death for.. >Oh, well, that's life in the big city. To holohuggers, yes. They are a very perverted lot of sadists. Consider how perverted a person has to be to get an erection over this description as the holohuggers do. An erection is the determinant of pornography, purient interest only applies to men. Consider how perverted holohuggers are that they are turned on by those words. Can you really imagine it? Yet they are. BTW: is not "she escapes breathlessly" not clear enough indiation that this is pornography for sadists clear enough? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 11:51:29 PDT 1996 Article: 63181 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:17:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 89 Message-ID: <50pbr4$qvp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50mf7s$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50o8h3$28s@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:18:12 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 04:15:31 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> It is great to read so many people support criminal copyright >> violation and conspiract to same. > Violations of the copyright law are not criminal violations. People who have followed your advice so far have >> Even Edeiken knows that the legislative history of "educational >> purposes" does not support Nizkor but he publically posts a legal >> opinion that such copyright violation is within the law. > This is an outright lie. > I have never posted a legal opinion on copyright law. I have never >given one privately. There is a simple reason for this. The Copyright Law was >radically amended in 1988 to conform with the Berne Convention and I had not >even read it until this morning. > What I found is that you were lying. First, the "legistlative history" is not >quite relevant. The Historical Notes (taken From Notes of Committee on the >Judiciary, House report 94-1476 --- the relevant legislative history) printed with the >statute to explain it state: > "Section 107 is intended to restate the present judicial doctrine of fair use, not to >change, narrow, or enlarge it in any way." > Thus the judicial interpretation of "fair use" which was *never* restricted >to classroom use is very relevant as legislative history. > It should be noted that the Report also states " . . . the endless variety of >situations and combinations of circumstances that can rise in particular cases >precludes the formulation of exact rules in the statute. The bill endorses the >purpose and general scope of the judicial doctrine of fair use, but there is no >disposition to freeze the doctrine in the statute, especially during a period of rapid >technological change. Beyond a very broad statutory explanation of what is fair >use is and some of the criteria applicable to it, the courts must be free to adapt the >doctrine to particular situations on a case-by-case basis." > The report later states: "Although the works and uses to which the >doctrine of fair use is applicable are as broad as the copyright law itself, most of the >discussion of section 107 has centered around questions of classroom >reproduction, particularly photocopying" > It defines the scope of the section as being: "the comittee has not only >adopted further amendments to section 107 but has also amended section 504 (c) >to provide innocent teachers and other non-profit users of copyrighted material with >broad insulation against unwarranted liability for infringement." > Perhaps it is me, but the normal English interpretation of the phrase >"innocent teachers and other non-profit users" would indicate that the legislative >history is *not* limited to classroom situations. > I notice that you announce what the "legislative history" is but do not >quote it so that others may see what you are talking about. In this case, of course, >the "legislative history" would include the judicial precedents which it specifically >embodies. A quick check of the annotations revealed no holding that fair use is >limited, as you state, to classrooms. Several of the cases applied in to >non-classroom situations. > I would ask for some citations of the cases that support your >interpretation, but that is a fruitless exercise. It is apparent that you do not know >what you are talking about. > >> It is just one more thing to report the the Penn SC. > Please do. Please tell them that I am an evil person because I quoted >the legislative history that directly contradicts you ipse dixit statement. Your >deposition on that point should be very humorous. > I can't wait. > --YFE ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 11:51:30 PDT 1996 Article: 63197 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten again Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 10:18:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50m9es$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cufo$2lp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50gvvs$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> <50jns6$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <50jr53$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <322D8490.D6D@serv.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 5:19:08 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:30:56 +0000, Laurinda Stryker wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >[snip] >> Yes. It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather" >> that women and children are to be killed in such cultures. Are you >> really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world? Are you >> really that stupid? >To which cultures does your phrase 'such cultures' refer? The >convention of noncombatant immunity is not a recent development in >Western thought. For example, cultures like Israel that punishes the family of the suspect even before he is arrested whenever possible. Or are you unaware of the details of the Qana shelling where refugees were killed and the artillery behaved exactly as though it were their deliberate intention to kill the people in the camp? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 18:06:56 PDT 1996 Article: 63243 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.bconnex.net!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 08:17:26 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50omn5$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <505_9609051558@tor250.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 3:17:41 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 05 Sep 96 15:14:10, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote: ><*[*] [*] [Matt Giwer] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +> ><+[Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?] [Wednesday September 04 1996 >09:20][*][0]*> > MG> I will see your claims and raise you > MG> How many items of physical evidence are there of the > MG> holocaust. > MG> You provide one and I will deal with the rest. >If you're so certain that there are none, Matt, then you'll ask me >to Email you the docs, won't you? >All you need to do is ask. >Then you'll get it. If it what you claim really existed you would post it here. As you will not post it here, I am correct in my assertion. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 18:06:57 PDT 1996 Article: 63259 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Applying IMT standards Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 20:08:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 12 Message-ID: <50sknu$81q@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-09.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 3:08:30 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 In applying those standards we have positive proof that Hillary Clinton ordered the criminal review of Republican FBI files. The prostitute of Dick Morris said so. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 18:06:57 PDT 1996 Article: 63277 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!xara.net!emerald.xara.net!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: And the camp was targeted Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 22:01:53 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 125 Message-ID: <50srdi$96d@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-09.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 3:02:26 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Indignation of an Israeli Writer: Ari Shavit Cana: 102 Faceless Dead We killed 170 people in Lebanon, most of whom were refugees, during the month of April, 1996. Many of them were women, old people and children. We killed 9 civilians, one a 2 year old girl and one, a centenarian, in Sahmour, on April 11th. We killed 11 civilians, including 7 children, in Nabatyeh, on April 18th. In the UN Camp in Cana, we killed 102 people. We made sure to inflict death from a distance. In a very secular manner, without the archaic idea of sin, without the antediluvian worry to consider man in the image of God, and without the primitive proscription, "You shall not kill!" Our solid alibi is that we are responsible for nothing, that the responsibility falls on Hezbollah. A most doubtful alibi. For when we decided to launch a massive attack on the civilian region of South Lebanon (while Israel ran no vital risk), we decided, ipso facto, to spill the blood of X number of civilians. When we decided to drive half a million people out of their homes and to shell those who remained behind (while in Israel, we did not have one single victim), we decided, in fact, to execute several dozen of them. This (alibi) allowed us to make such cruel decisions without seeing ourselves as rotten. We killed them because the increasingly wider gap between the sacrosanct character that we attribute to our own lives and the more limited character we give to theirs, allowed us to kill. We believe, in the most absolute manner, with the White House, the Senate, the Pentagon, and the New York Times on our side, that their lives do not have the same weight as ours. We are convinced that with Dimona (Israel's atomic site), Yad Vashem and the Shoah Museum in our hand, we have the right to compel 400,000 people to evacuate their homes in 8 hours. And we have the right, at the end of 8 hours, to consider their homes as military targets. And we reserve the right to rain 16,000 shells on their villages and their populations. And we reserve the right to kill without any guilt feelings. But all this cannot alleviate the gravity of the massacre, Israeli style, and our responsibility for its execution. For it is perpetrated, in general, in places to which we give free range to immoderate violence. The shelling of Cana was executed according to the rules, orders and objectives of operation, "Grapes of Wrath." There is something wrong in these rules, orders and objectives. Something that is no longer human. Something that touches on the criminal. And all of us, without exception, were an integral part of this machine. The public supported the media, who supported the government, who supported the Chief of Staff, who supported the inquiry officer, who supported the officers, who supported the soldiers who fired the three shells that killed 102 in Cana. Nothing can prevent Cana from becoming an integral part of our biography. Because, after Cana, we did not denounce the crime, we did not want to subject the affair to the eyes of the law, we merely wanted to deny the horror and go on with our current affairs. That is how Cana is part of ourselves -- like one of the features of our face. As the massacre perpetrated by Baruch Goldstein (in the Cave of the Patriarchs on Muslims while praying) and the crime committed by Ygal Amir (like the reactions to them) were manifestations of rotten seeds in the heart of the national-religious culture, the massacre of Cana is no less extreme a grain of rottenness in the heart of secular Israeli culture: its cynicism, brutality, instrumentalism, egocentrism of the powerful; this tendency to blur the frontier between good and evil, between permitted and prohibited; this tendency not to require justice, not to care about truth. The manner in which contemporary Israel has functioned during and after Cana shows that modern, rational Israeli life conceals a terrifying aspect. Ari Shavit/Haaretz/New York Times Syndication. Ari Shavit is a writer and columnist of the Israeli newspaper, Haaretz. He lives in Jerusalem. (Translated from Hebrew in "Liberation" of May 21, 1996.) ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 18:39:23 PDT 1996 Article: 63308 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 22:55:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 67 Message-ID: <50sui0$vr@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <50s28p$g8a@sol.caps.maine.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-09.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 3:56:00 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:99492 alt.revisionism:63308 soc.culture.europe:47649 soc.culture.german:85286 On Sat, 07 Sep 96 10:59:29 EST, scotterb@maine.maine.edu (Scott Erb) wrote: >In article <322F5C1B.226D@unb.ca>, t08o@unb.ca says... >>> We are agreed there was a camp. So what? There were camps in the >US >>> in WW II for Japanese-American citizens. And there are cetainly >>> traces of insectides in them. >>> >>> No holocaust there. >>> >>> Next point. >> >>Sorry, you asked for one piece of physical evidence. You never said it had >to >>prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the Holocaust occurred. >(I note that Matt didn't answer the questions given to him). >In science and history it is utterly impossible to provide definitive proof >that ANYTHING happened. Even tapes and movies can be said to be forged, and >when you get to events that weren't taped, you rely on witnesses. When those >witnesses are dead, you rely on writings. All of these things can be >doubted. >So, when someone says "prove there is a holocaust," they are being wimps if >they ask for scientific proof beyond a shadow of a doubt. They know that >can't exist for anything. Heck, one can't really exist that the world exists >outside the brain, this could all be an illusion. Why do you not stick with the subject which is not now nor has it even been proof. It has been AS YOU JUST READ physical evidence. Changing the subject does not contribute to the discussion. Where it stands now, there were internment camps. There were internment camps in the US. If that is all there is to it, what is all the shouting about? >The question really is: given all the evidence, what conclusion is most >reasonable and credible. Given all the reports from survivors, confessions >by Nazis of what happened, records found, reports from liberators, evidence >from the scene (the camps), and the fact that bodies were found and millions >of people disappeared, 31 million people disappeared. So what? it is unreasonable and incredible to doubt the >holocaust. All 31 million? Anyone who does so, has a burden of proof to discredit the >mountains of evidence which says the holocaust happened. Any attempt to >shift the burden of proof to the other side is simply bad historography, and >probably hides an agenda which has nothing to do with honestly assessing >history. Where is the physical evidence? There was none presented at Nuremberg. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 20:00:46 PDT 1996 Article: 63320 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!swrinde!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Stele: "I haven't a clue how many newspapers...." Date: Thu, 05 Sep 1996 12:01:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50mfge$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4vsdrr$rqa@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <5007pa$ll5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <5065u8$iph@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50ivrm$efr@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Sep 05 7:02:22 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 4 Sep 1996 04:16:54 GMT, rbeck@unixg.ubc.ca (Bob Beck) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >[re: Israeli "control" of White House, Senate etc] >: The very absense of physical evidence is proof >: that it is true. >Very nicely put. May I quote you the next time a holocaust denier says or >writes "but no-one ever found a _written order_ from Hitler to kill all >the Jews"? And the next time anyone demands proof Jews are conspiring to rule the world it will be pointed out that the absense of eveidence is proof that they are. You holohuggers should get with one point of validity and stick with it. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 7 21:44:57 PDT 1996 Article: 63324 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: IGNORE THAT ASSHOLE DAVE HARMAN....READ THE WEB PAGE!!!! Date: 8 Sep 1996 01:31:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 2 Message-ID: <50t7lb$avs@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on10-16.netcom.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 9:31:23 PM EDT 1996 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.6 www.babylonians.com From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:26 PDT 1996 Article: 63339 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Life and Fall of Wlodowa: Leaves In Memoriam Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:22:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <50p53h$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50m4rh$g8r@viper.txdirect.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:23:13 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Sep 1996 09:00:32 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.018 >Last-modified: 1993/03/24 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) Notice, holohugging suckers, that he has changed it from kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca. Got that Alec G. Sucker extraordinaire? You were played for a fool by this and have gotten complaints registered against your mailbombing up to interNIC, which has responded that it takes your actions seriously. And to the rest of your suckers, your god works for DOD and has betrayed you, but you are not bright enough to see it. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:27 PDT 1996 Article: 63363 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:39:53 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <50tinq$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <322aec47.575723@news.pacificnet.net> <50m51o$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <50p5qp$b7g@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:40:26 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:35:04 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >[...] >> And when you do so, remember that I was the first to post the >>comparison of holocaust to UFO abductions, RSCA, and witchcraft. >Er, Mr. Giwer, he compared Holocaust-"REVISIONISM" with UFO abductions, RSCA, >and witchcraft - a comparison which is quite justified since Holocaust-"revisionism" works >only on the assumption of a gigantic conspiracy... >[...] Revisionism is based upon the non-existance of physical evidence for all the claimed attrocities and the absurdity of the claims of the witnesses, such as the women dancing naked and the maniacal laughter right out of B horror movies and the witchcraft trials. But I will give you one thing, the witchcraft trials were much more detailed and thorough than the Nuremberg trials. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:28 PDT 1996 Article: 63369 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists? Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:08:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50tgsr$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <50s28p$g8a@sol.caps.maine.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:08:59 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:99548 alt.revisionism:63369 soc.culture.europe:47652 soc.culture.german:85301 On Sat, 7 Sep 1996 11:19:00, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote: >In article <50s28p$g8a@sol.caps.maine.edu> scotterb@maine.maine.edu (Scott Erb) writes: >>The question really is: given all the evidence, what conclusion is most >>reasonable and credible. Given all the reports from survivors, confessions >>by Nazis of what happened, records found, reports from liberators, evidence >>from the scene (the camps), and the fact that bodies were found and millions >>of people disappeared, it is unreasonable and incredible to doubt the >>holocaust. Anyone who does so, has a burden of proof to discredit the >>mountains of evidence which says the holocaust happened. Any attempt to >>shift the burden of proof to the other side is simply bad historography, and >>probably hides an agenda which has nothing to do with honestly assessing >>history. >Probably?!? >With that quibble: well said. And given no evidence of extermination by gassing and that the Russians did not make any claims of it until after the war, I would say if it very clear that the record should be for only what in fact exists not for what people want to impose upon the physical evidence that exists. Otherwise we are into hearing maniacal laughter over the sound of aircraft engines and other such physical impossibilities. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:29 PDT 1996 Article: 63371 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!news.bconnex.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!hunter.premier.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:01:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 30 Message-ID: <50p7br$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50jsgj$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50l5bd$a6r@news.enter.net> <50m6pp$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <322F5DB3.47A0@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 8:01:47 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 20:09:39 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> > Sure, Matty poo. You have bragged about your memberships in >> >> >organizations >> > >> >> You are a liar. I have only mentioned in my years being a member of >> >> the NRA and the Libertarian Party. >> >> > And the World Science Fiction Convention. >> >> There is no such organization. But you know that. >Now why would Matt have ever attended a WorldCon? According to his >own words, all science fiction is garbage. I have attended two and I know how they are organized. There is no such thing. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:29 PDT 1996 Article: 63373 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: GIWER SEES GENOCIDE AS LEGITIMATE ACT OF WAR (was Re: Ausrotten again) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:07:04 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 50 Message-ID: <50tkap$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50jns6$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <50jr53$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <322D8490.D6D@serv.net> <50m9es$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50p74m$b7g@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:07:37 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:57:25 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>> Yes. It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather" >>>> that women and children are to be killed in such cultures. Are you >>>> really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world? Are you >>>> really that stupid? >>>To which cultures does your phrase 'such cultures' refer? The >>>convention of noncombatant immunity is not a recent development in >>>Western thought. >> For example, cultures like Israel that punishes the family of the >>suspect even before he is arrested whenever possible. >[...] >Yout said that it is A NORMAL ACT OF WAR TO KILL WOMEN AND CHILDREN so >that there will be NOBODY LEFT to revenge. THIS IS GENOCIDE. Excuse me, but in the case under discussion, there is no state of war. In this case it is merely a peacetime exhibition of savagery. >Would you mind to explain, exactly why you have problems believing the holocaust? The complete and total lack of any physical evidence. How many times do you have to read that before you comprehend it? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:31 PDT 1996 Article: 63378 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german Subject: Re: WP Martyrs (was: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed...?) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:26:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 64 Message-ID: <50thu1$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <32282586.73C@ix.netcom.com> <50b060$11i8@sol.caps.maine.edu> <50nule$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:26:41 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:99551 alt.revisionism:63378 alt.politics.white-power:42339 soc.culture.europe:47653 soc.culture.german:85304 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 02:02:09 -0700, robk@rio.com (Rob Kowalewski) wrote: >In article <50nule$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 02:57:20 -0700, robk@rio.com (Rob Kowalewski) >> wrote: > >> >Weaver resisted arrest and avoided prosecution. He hid behind his family >> >when he knew the federal heat was on. He was extremely irresponsible in >> >teaching his young'uns about firearms (such as neglecting to tell them >> >"Don't point guns at armed law enforcement officers"). If he wanted to >> >stand and fight, who cares? But get the wife and minor kids out first, fer >> >pete's sake. He created the situation that played itself out most >> >tragically. >> >> Lets see, the marshalls show up and, without identifying themselves, >> start the shooting first the dog and then the son in the back killing >> him and wounding a family friend who was with him, thinking they were >> chasing down a deer. >> >> The hostage rescue team then shows up covertly and before announcing >> their presense and demanding surrender opens fire killing his wife and >> wounding him. >> >> And all of that started because of a BATF entrappment scheme and >> falsly reporting that Weaver was a suspect in an armed bank robbery. >> >> Those are the most important points you have either wrong or >> neglected. >Does anything you just said contradict anything that I said? Yes. Weaver >created the entire situation, both by action and inaction, and suffered >severe consequences. The BATF engaged in entrapment which is a criminal act. If indeed the BATF did engage in entrapment (and I >said IF), any reasonably adequate lawyer would have been able to get the >charges punted. But he instead chose a course of defiance, resistance and >flight while supposedly "caring" for his family. The Weaver showed up in court on the day he was told to show up. Now perhaps you can describe the defiance, resistance and flight that you are talking about. I have yet to come across anything even remotely fitting those terms. >I don't think anyone can accurately argue the facts of the incident unless >they were there (and have no political ax to grind or career to protect). >I know of no such person. My whole point originally dealt with the facts >LEADING UP to the incident. And I see nothing in your post that >successfully argues against what I said. Leading up to the incident was a criminal act by the government and his refusal to be recruited as a spy, the threat of the indictment being the inducment to spy. Do you have anything else to add? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:32 PDT 1996 Article: 63381 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING, HISTORIAN, TO SPEAK IN NEWPORT BEACH, CA 7-SEPT Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:19:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <50tl2l$nr5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <3228dc01.245303398@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <32293b8a.2741910@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <50ch1r$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50hvc1$b43@jerry.loop.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:20:21 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28745 alt.revisionism:63381 On Fri, 6 Sep 1996 07:52:04, joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote: >In article <322fc615.37056304@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) writes: >>BUT NONE DARE CALL IT CENSORSHIP! >None with any brains, George, because it isn't. The folks at St. Martin's -- >Tor, by the way, the publisher I'm working on a book for, is a subsidiary of >them -- has a reputation for publishing decent, well-researched, honest >historical works, and -- let's face it -- that doesn't describe Irving. Since the book is unpublished, how can you know? But then, since you know, address the failings of this book. Take all the screens you need. >That's not just a matter of opinion, George; Irving's been proven a libeler in >two separate incidents. And what does libel have to do with this book? It appears another example of attacking the messenger when all else fails. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:33 PDT 1996 Article: 63382 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten again Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:11:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 84 Message-ID: <50tkir$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50cufo$2lp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50gvvs$t3a@juliana.sprynet.com> <50jns6$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <50jr53$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50p6mn$b7g@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:11:55 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:49:58 GMT, abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote: >Yet another time Giwer insists on talking about things he knows nothing about. >He hasn't read the source, he doesn't know history. Yet by all means he >must babble on and on... >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>Himmler said in roughly these words: "Most of you have seen a thousand or >>>more corpses side by side. This is hard, but one has to endure it and to stay >>>morally clean". >>>A batallion of partisans on one spot? Strange guerilla warfare... >> No. Combat troops had seen the thousand or so of their own and >>others. So what is your point? >Go and read the source. Read the discussion. Then come back and talk. Himmler does >not speak about war casualities nor about battles. He speaks about people killed by >non-combat troops. "Rblackmore"'s point was that Himmler was speaking about >killing partisans. I pointed out that you will hardly find hundreds of partisans on one >spot, therefore his conclusion is wrong. Even better. Partisans were subject to summary execution. Fighting without a uniform was like that. >>>And: "When a tank ditch has to be excavated by women and you say 'I can't >>>do that, these women will die' then I will say 'If this tank ditch is not excavated >>>than you will become the murderer of your own women and children'..." >>>Warfare with partisans? >> Actually it was a rule of war at the time that partisans could be >>executed on site without a trial of any kind. But you know that. >I addressed my comment to people who know the source not to idiotic trolls like you. >Your wild speculations led you into the wrong direction. If you are interested in the >context, go and read the source. (This is the guy who babbles about >"scientific methods"??) As I said, and you concur, they were partisans. We both agree they were subject to summary executions. >>>And: "We have to kill the women and children, or else in their offspring new >>>ememies of the German people will rise." >>>Warfare with partisans??? >> Yes. It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather" >>that women and children are to be killed in such cultures. Are you >>really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world? Are you >>really that stupid? >As you see my email-adress on the top of this post, you will know that I have little >reason to "impose 1990s US culture" on anybody. As a matter of fact, you will >have to look hard to find civilized people in the world who share your view of >murdering children and women being a legitimate act of war. >But thank you very much for stating that exterminating a whole nation IS >a legitimate act. It has been done so many times in history it is difficult to consider it illegitimate. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:33 PDT 1996 Article: 63387 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Fuck the truth Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 21:52:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <50sqrs$96d@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-09.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 2:53:00 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 All that matters is promoting the holocaust fantasies. Peggy Tishman, a former president of New York's Jewish Community Relationship Council, hosted a showing of the documentary film, Liberators at Harlem's Apollo Theatre a few years ago, a film riddled with many factual errors, many of them deliberate and intentional ["The liberation that wasn't," The Globe and Mail, Feb. 6, 1993]. The purpose of the film, among others, had been to improve the souring relations between Jews and Blacks in New York City. However, she defended the historical lie alleging all-black U.S. army units had been among the first to free the Jewish inmates at Dachau and Buchenwald in 1945 on the grounds that it was simply "good for the Holocaust." ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:34 PDT 1996 Article: 63390 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Does the "A-Team" get paid? Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:34:44 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 81 Message-ID: <50tie5$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <3229a8cf.314665@news.pacificnet.net> <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net> <50mauf$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50nsa8$1ui@orion.cybercom.net> <50p8c5$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:35:17 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 16:48:48 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >Mr. Giwer, you're a bigger moron than I ever thought possible. I NEVER >said my son reads this Usenet group. I NEVER said he followed the >discussion. > >But my som is not dumb as a tree, and so would resent any comparison >between him and Tom Moron, who is. > >My son also (yes, at 9) resents people who make snap judgements about what >autism is -- just like you did. > >And once again, Mr. Giwer, my 9 year old has a higher IQ than you do. And >is functionally literate, which you are not. Sorry about that but it stands. Unless he is following this conference with comprehension, it is impossible for him to resent anything said in this conference. >So go away. You have nothing better to do than pick on a 9 year old? Do you have nothing better to do than use him to support your agenda? >In article <50p8c5$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> I will tell you where you are wrong. The child is reported to be 9 >> years old. The child is reported to resent comments in this >> conference. The child is reported to be following this conference to >> the point of being able to resent remarks here. >> >> I would question that even a brilliant non-handicapped 9 year old >> could follow this conference. And if he can, where are his posts? >> >> But what do we have here? A mother speaking for a handicapped child >> claiming he "resents" something but can not type it in for himself. >> >> It is bullshit. >> >> >> >> >> ===== >> >> There's no business like Shoah Business >> Like no business I know. >> Everything about it is appealing, >> Everything that traffic will allow. >> No where can you get that happy feeling >> Then when your stealing > >And by the way, STUPID, it's "when you're stealing." You ARE. > >My GOD, you're an idiot. On the good side, I am at least capable of resenting such remarks should I choose to do so. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:35 PDT 1996 Article: 63392 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.cstone.net!news1.slip.net!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: It must be true, it was in the news. Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 21:54:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 127 Message-ID: <50sqv4$96d@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-09.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 2:54:44 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Newsmakers: Literal and Figurative >From the TransCyberian Express The 37-year-old German documentary film-maker Michael Born, according to an AP story [Feb. 15, 1996], owed his prolific output to the fact that he happened to be a literal rather than a figurative newsmaker. For example, a 1994 Born documentary portrayed a group of Germans performing a white-hooded Klansman's cross-burning ritual allegedly somewhere in Germany; a televised image that sent police investigators fanning out across the land in search of a clandestine cell of Teutonic Knights of the Ku Klux Klan. As it turns out, the ritualistic "Klansmen" were nothing more than pals of Born's mugging for the camera, cooking up a lurid tale they knew Born could easily sell to the sensation-hungry German TV networks and its audiences. Born admits he faked this and other segments, but said in his defence that many other documentary film-makers did the same. "I am only a small cog in the machine," he told the Bild am Sonntag newspaper. Born is now facing fraud charges that could net him up to 15 years in prison. The documentary film-maker was, it seems, motivated by greed rather than politics; the 22 documentaries he cranked out between 1991 and 1995 having earned him hundreds of thousands of dollars. Similar and, often worse, hoaxes perpetrated on the Germans (and others, too, of course) in the past, however, have been motivated by a political design. Consider the 1960 New Year's Day "swastika campaign" kicked off in Cologne, West Germany, by Soviet agents who daubed a local synagogue with the slogan "Germans Demand That Jews Get Out." John Barron, a senior editor of the Reader's Digest, in his book The KGB--The World of the Soviet Secret Police, describes how the campaign then exfoliated in all directions: During the New Year's weekend, swastikas and slogans were daubed on synagogues and Jewish buildings in London, Oslo, Vienna, Paris, Parma, Glasgow, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Milan, Antwerp and New York. On January 3 (1960) further outbreaks of anti-Semitism were reported in Melbourne, Manchester, Athens and Perth, Australia. On January 6, more desecrations occurred in Bogata, Buenos Aires, Milan, Oslo, Vienna and the summer home of King Frederik IX of Denmark. What is instructive about the KGB-inspired "swastika campaign" is how the Western media glibly and uncritically parroted the storyline of a malevolent "resurgence of Nazism." There was a general hysteria in Western Europe and North America. An outraged Carl Sandburg--the great American poet--advocated the death penalty for anyone caught painting swastikas. In London, Lord Robert Boothby--dismayed by what seemed like a "rising tide of Nazism"--said he intended to go to West Germany to investigate the situation there firsthand. A German bishop, Otto Dibelius, insisted the outbreaks of "anti-Semitism" proved the German nation had not yet overcome its shameful past. And so on. Meanwhile, West German businessmen, diplomats, and politicians were given a rough ride by the world community, notwithstanding their many and abject apologies and statements of self-abasement. Which was precisely what the Soviet apparatchiks had intended: to drive a wedge between West Germany and her allies in the West; to effect her moral isolation. The anti-German smear operation even struck at targets inside Israel. The January 12, 1960, New York Daily News, reported: "Swastikas and anti-Jewish slogans have appeared like a rash all over Israel during the past 48 hours...Forty swastikas, printed in red crayon, were found at Petak Tikvah." The "swastika campaign" was and remains a prime example of a successful Soviet disinformation project and of the clever psychological warfare waged by KGB agents against the gullible people of the Western world. It also underscores the importance of being skeptical of sensational breaking news stories. Don't believe everything you read. Don't believe everything you hear. Keep an open mind. End ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:35 PDT 1996 Article: 63396 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:51:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <50tje2$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <506e8f$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:52:18 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.conspiracy:86145 alt.revisionism:63396 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 11:15:27 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <506e8f$nvc@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> It will be like the man who was gassed six times and survived. They >> can not let stories like that see the light of day. >Really? Not see the light of day? > >Then how did YOU hear about it, Mr. Giwer? > >Obviously it *did* reach the light of day, didn't it? So did the story of Santa Claus and the toothfairy. >Idiot. Gullible holohugger. Lets tell it to, Sara, she'll believe anything. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:36 PDT 1996 Article: 63402 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING, HISTORIAN, TO SPEAK IN NEWPORT BEACH, CA 7-SEPT Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:25:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 54 Message-ID: <50tlcd$nr5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <3228dc01.245303398@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <32293b8a.2741910@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <50ch1r$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50hvc1$b43@jerry.loop.net> <50sdqd$n35@jerry.loop.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:25:33 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28749 alt.revisionism:63402 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 18:12:28 GMT, goat@anus.com (CHRIST SODOMIZER) wrote: >joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) took a fat hit off a pipe and >wrote: >>>BUT NONE DARE CALL IT CENSORSHIP! >>None with any brains, George, because it isn't. The folks at St. Martin's -- >>Tor, by the way, the publisher I'm working on a book for, is a subsidiary of >>them -- has a reputation for publishing decent, well-researched, honest >>historical works, and -- let's face it -- that doesn't describe Irving. >You didn't address the question: coercion forced St. Martin's to drop >the book, which is censorship -- the publication was intended but >outside forces, afraid of the content, retributed. When holohuggers do it, it is not coersion. It is for the good of the world and it is done out of the goodness of their heart. It would be interesting to try to mount a similar campaign against a holohaust writer citing the nonsense in previous publications. After all, only holohuggers can freely publish nonsense. >>That's not just a matter of opinion, George; Irving's been proven a libeler in >>two separate incidents. >Which is entirely unrelated to what he said! Are you a bot? As your >responses are one of two: 1) accusation and 2) "...is an idiot." When there is nothing else, attack the person. >>The IHR is certainly still free to publish his book. Or CODOH. Or >>Loompanics. Or you. >Yes, we all understand the economic power structure well. What about >major distribution and political interests - Jews - behaving like >Nazis to censor material? Bookstores carrying it would be threatened with violence and occasionally firebombed. That, and painting swastikas on their own buildings, are their favorite tactics. >>Free country, nicht wahr? >What does that mean to you, Joel? To him it means Jewish approved thugs can do anything they want and the police should look the other way. It sounds like the political situation in 1920s Germany. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:37 PDT 1996 Article: 63403 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: DAVID IRVING, HISTORIAN, TO SPEAK IN NEWPORT BEACH, CA 7-SEPT Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:19:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 61 Message-ID: <50tl2o$nr5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <3228dc01.245303398@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <32293b8a.2741910@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <50ch1r$i5d@jerry.loop.net> <50hvc1$b43@jerry.loop.net> <32304d0c.970964@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:20:24 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28750 alt.revisionism:63403 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 16:34:32 GMT, ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) wrote: >joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg) wrote: >>In article <322fc615.37056304@nntp.ix.netcom.com> ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) writes: >> >> >>>BUT NONE DARE CALL IT CENSORSHIP! >> >>None with any brains, George, because it isn't. The folks at St. Martin's -- >>Tor, by the way, the publisher I'm working on a book for, is a subsidiary of >>them -- has a reputation for publishing decent, well-researched, honest >>historical works, and -- let's face it -- that doesn't describe Irving. >> >>That's not just a matter of opinion, George; Irving's been proven a libeler in >>two separate incidents. >> >>The IHR is certainly still free to publish his book. Or CODOH. Or >>Loompanics. Or you. >> >>And you're still free to run around with an aluminum-foil-covered colander on >>your head shouting about Zrays warping your brain. >> >>Free country, nicht wahr? >Gee, Joel, I'm amazed to read that you call _Other Losses_ "a decent, >well-researched honest historical work," because it was published by >St. Martin's Press. That's not how you (or the Nizkorites) generally >refer to James Bacque's work. >And I noticed you preferred NOT to comment on the command issued by >the High Priestess that "heretics" were to be denied ANY forum, >especially, access to the mass-media. >And I noticed you preferred NOT to comment on the fact that the Rus- >sian government gave access to the photoplates of Goebbels' diaries to >Irving--and Irving alone--despite his being a "rank amateur." Can any- >one check them out--you know, like _Denying the Holocaust_ at any >major library? And I noticed you preferred NOT to comment that Irving >spent seven years working on deciphering the plates. What a dedicated >amateur! And, of course, that you preferred NOT to comment that there >was, indeed, a "done deal" about publishing the book--until the >Thought Police arrived, and St. Martin's was "persuaded to change >its mind." Narry a word about ANY of those FACTS--but its nice you've >"revised" your opinion on Bacque's book. Does that make you a >Revisionist? >Why, of course, St. Martin's was "persuaded" to cancel a done-deal. >It's usually easy to persuade people to stay in business ... > BUT NONE DARE CALL IT CENSORSHIP! >[and here's how YOU can contact Joel for "Just the facts, ma'am!"] When all else fails, attack the person. In fact the person first, it saves having to do some real work. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:38 PDT 1996 Article: 63407 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: The footnote heard from Date: Sat, 07 Sep 1996 22:04:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 98 Message-ID: <50sri5$96d@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-09.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 3:04:53 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 The Cry of a Deportee A 1940 Gaullist veteran of the Free French Forces (FFL), I was arrested in October, 1943, and deported for 18 months to Buchenwald, then to the hell of Dora, where thousands of French deportees lost their lives in the underground factories of V1 and V2. I returned disabled. This is to tell you that we shared with our Jewish comrades all the ordeals of the camps. Having said that, I ask journalists with what right they deny veteran deportees the right to question theories elevated to truth, not by Jewish deportees but by some Zionists? What kind of society do we live in, where we do not have the right to criticize, in any manner, either Jews or Israelis or Zionists, without being automatically accused of anti-semitism or racism? Let journalists know one thing: The vast majority of deportees in Nazi camps were not Jewish, even though the media give credence to the thesis that only Jews were deported and exterminated. Let them know, too, that in France, there were about 250,000 deportees, of which about 25,000 were French Jews. Between 80,000 and 100,000 returned, of which about 15,000 were Jews. Nobody speaks about the non-Jewish deportees. Why? There is a lot of talk about Shoah, but nothing about the underground factories of V1 and V2 in Dora, where thousands of French deportees died of exhaustion and bad treatment. Dora, too, was a camp of extermination, by work and by hunger. As for Auschwitz, it is true that about 800,000 Jews from all of Europe perished after 1943, but we must not forget that the first exterminated deportees were 400,000 Soviet soldiers, about 150,000 gypsies, 500,000 to 600,000 Polish, and deportees of other nationalities. There is no talk about this, either. So why talk only about Jews' sacrifices and conceal the martyrdom of other deportees? They, too, have the right to memory. As a senior deportee, Garaudy is saying the same thing, when he maintains that deportation of "non-Jews" was concealed and when he denounces the manipulation of numbers, from the official talk initially of about 4 million Jews exterminated in Auschwitz, now reduced to 1 million. Is it "revisionist" or "negationist" or even antisemitic to maintain this? In the camps, there was no monopoly by any category. We were all equal in the face of suffering and death. We cannot accept that deportation be monopolized by some and that journalists who have known neither deportation nor war be permitted such manipulation. Gaston Pernot Doctor of Law Commander of the Legion of Honor, Paris ("Le Figaro," Friday, May 3, 1996) ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:39 PDT 1996 Article: 63429 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!scanner.worldgate.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Why does George Lehmann keep making a fool out of himself? Inquiring minds, and all that... Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:29:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <50tlkq$nr5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <3228dc01.245303398@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <322b2d11.2640309@news.spry.com> <322b7ab4.40385089@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <322BA960.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50gc9b$7rn@news1.panix.com> <322cd6bf.64027665@nntp.ix.netcom.co <32305796.3668111@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <50purb$q51@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:30:02 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28762 alt.revisionism:63429 On 6 Sep 1996 19:42:35 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Ursus Major (ursus_m@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: Rose Valley's retort: >: >George, George, George -- does this sort of stuff really fly in Alta Loma? >: > >: >Check out http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/pamphlets/pamphlets.html >: > >: >Or don't. I'm sure YOU won't find anything you'll agree is anti-Semitic >: >there, but I'm sure anybody sane would. >: >: That was not the gambit: YOU put up material from IHR which is anti- >: Semitic. You claim they are. You show it ... or go back to the Cabala! >George, George, George--you really shouldn't make antisemitic remarks >while you're trying to prove you're not an antisemite. The subject is the challenge for you to post something antisemitic that is carried by the IHR. Why not address the challenge instead of trying to change the subject? That is a rhetorical question of course, as you know you can not address the subject. To repeat, there is no antisemitic material on the IHR site or carried by it. But you know that. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:40 PDT 1996 Article: 63430 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!scanner.worldgate.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.white-power,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Why does George Lehmann keep making a fool out of himself? Inquiring minds, and all that... Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:31:03 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 35 Message-ID: <50tlno$nr5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <3228dc01.245303398@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <322b2d11.2640309@news.spry.com> <322b7ab4.40385089@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <322BA960.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50gc9b$7rn@news1.panix.com> <322cd6bf.64027665@nntp.ix.netcom.co <32305796.3668111@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <50purb$q51@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <3230d2c2.2468274@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:31:36 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:28763 alt.revisionism:63430 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 01:48:30 GMT, ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) wrote: >libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >>Ursus Major (ursus_m@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >> >>: Rose Valley's retort: >>: >George, George, George -- does this sort of stuff really fly in Alta Loma? >>: > >>: >Check out http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/pamphlets/pamphlets.html >>: > >>: >Or don't. I'm sure YOU won't find anything you'll agree is anti-Semitic >>: >there, but I'm sure anybody sane would. >>: >>: That was not the gambit: YOU put up material from IHR which is anti- >>: Semitic. You claim they are. You show it ... or go back to the Cabala! >> >>George, George, George--you really shouldn't make antisemitic remarks >>while you're trying to prove you're not an antisemite. >What in the world is anti-Semitic about that? If one were a Muslim and >the reference were to a Ouiga-board, or a Gypsy and it was the Tarot, >would it be anything other than mere wry humor? Knock it off, you've >obviously never read Patrick Dennis. A little humor, Willem, >it will do wonders for you--almost like a high-fibre diet! He was almost forced to address the issue of antisemitic material carried by the IHR. Knowing there is no such material, he is attempting to change the subject. Back up and stick him with the issue. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:40 PDT 1996 Article: 63435 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power Subject: Re: Ye shall smell gas where there be no gas Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:38:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <50k49s$9na@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50908b$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50g1dr$r34@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <50h7j6$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50hk42$ekd@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-52.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Sep 04 7:38:52 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:63435 alt.politics.white-power:42354 On 3 Sep 1996 15:50:26 GMT, libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: Yes, name calling, name calloing and namecalling. That being all you >: holohuggers have going for you. >And then, IN THE SAME POST: >: You are very stupid. You are a holohugger. Those are redundant. >Matt, you're really, really amazing. Thank you. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:41 PDT 1996 Article: 63444 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Saving Nuremberg has failed Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 03:31:40 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <50tens$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 10:32:12 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Here is the problem. The methods, procedures and witnesses at the Nuremberg trials have been found wholly incredible now that they have been re-examined without war time hysteria prevailing. Historians have tried for some time to salvage the findings of these trials but have failed. Gas chambers affirmed in court have disappeared. Numbers gassed similarly affirmed have been summarily reduced. This failure has occurred after decades in some cases of historians attempting to find support for the findings of those courts. It is about time to trash all the findings of Nuremberg as victors justice and start from scratch due to so many of the court findings of special note having been found false. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:42 PDT 1996 Article: 63446 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Sober up, Matt! WasRe: for those who have any turther questions Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 12:23:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 20 Message-ID: <50p55f$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <50m5pe$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <322ED481.48E5@ccnis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:24:15 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 09:24:17 -0400, Annie Alpert wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >nothing important >TURTHER QUESTIONS? Jeez! Lay off the bottle when you decide to >elucidate on AR, will ya? Look in the phone book for the number of >Alcoholics Anonymous. It's free. And I would suggest you look for a post-hysterectomy support group. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:42 PDT 1996 Article: 63457 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Does the "A-Team" get paid? Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:36:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 52 Message-ID: <50tihf$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <3229a8cf.314665@news.pacificnet.net> <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net> <50mauf$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <32305ac4.1663458@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:37:03 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 17:09:26 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >>In article <50mauf$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >>(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 21:21:01 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >>> >>> >In article <50j2u7$rcq@orion.cybercom.net>, amatthews@cybercom.net (Allan >>> >Matthews) wrote: >>> >>> >[speaking of Tom Moron] >>> >>> >> Perhaps he's autistic - many of them like to bang their heads against >>a wall >>> >> endlessly. >>> >> > >>Sara >> >>-- >>"I am patient with stupidity, but not with those who are proud of it." >> Edith Sitwell > Sara, how is you raise your son as a topic out here in a format >like this? It raises him to the status of a useful victim for purposes of her line of emotional rhetoric. See? She has found a use for him. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:43 PDT 1996 Article: 63462 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: reviewing the bidding Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 13:46:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 33 Message-ID: <50pa04$qvp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 6:46:44 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Despite repeated requests the nearest bit of physical evidence for the holocaust has been internment camps in Poland. We have one holohugger claiming to have megs of physical evidence but he refuses to post it publically (certainly adding to his credibility only to holohuggers.) We have the great Nizkor without the slightest bit of physical evidence but despite being the holocaust junk cellar has not the slightest bit of physical evidence. There has yet to be the slighest physical evidence for the holocaust presented here or on any of the holocaust sites, not a bit of it, nothing. Yet the holohuggers here continue to claim they have physical evidence but they will not post it. Bottom line, in case you have missed it, there is ZERO, NADA, ZILCH physicla evidence for any holocaust. Absent such evidence, it did not occur, Case closed. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:43 PDT 1996 Article: 63474 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Thinks that U.S. Courts are part of the Inquisition Date: Fri, 06 Sep 1996 14:08:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 49 Message-ID: <50pb96$qvp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50mbvr$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50o515$28s@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Sep 06 7:08:38 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 03:15:49 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> You claim that he described an operating gas chamber. You therefore >> claim that the US Army was permitting a gas chamber to continue >> operating for him to observe. > >> Are you really that stupid? > Apparently you are. Dr. Larson never claimed to have seen it operation >nor have I. It was there. It was in working condition. He saw it. Excuse me, you claim to be an attorney but would accept this type of testimony against your client? This statement alone is enough for any prior client of yours to sue you for malfeasance that you would accept such a thing against your client. It is amazing that anyone claiming to be an attroney in a capittal case would accpet no evidence of a murder and no and no autopsy and let their client be condemned despite the lack of same. But then you are an attorney and you know your clients can not demand evidence of dead bodies nor autopies and you know your client must be condemned based upon testimony of murder without evidence of murder. And we know that you would let surprise prosecution witnesses introducing new testimony against your client stand wtihout objection. And we know all of this and more because you support every procedure of all of the war crimes tribunals. Despite the fact that means you have no concept of law in this country, it is good to see you support kangaroo courts against your own clients. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:44 PDT 1996 Article: 63477 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:02:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <50tk24$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50p7hp$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50qmk2$ktn@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:03:00 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 7 Sep 1996 02:28:18 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> There can be only one to be a member of. It is the one for the >> particular convention. One would expect an attorney to understand the >> legal niceties of how it is organized. > Bzzzt! Having organized them I know differently. If you a member of the >Worldcon you are a member of the World Science Fantasy Society as well. >Should you really have been a member I suggest you check your program book. >The constitution of the WSFS is printed in every edition. As you should know, there is no, THE Worldcon. Each Worldcon is a separate organization to which each person pays directly for membership. Now go back and read the thread so you find some way to distort what was said so you can pretend you were right all along. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:45 PDT 1996 Article: 63478 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Master of Liars? GIWER? Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:04:15 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 434 Message-ID: <50tk5n$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <7aH3oOev1iBC065yn@login.dknet.dk> <50cf01$mu6@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <50ghd9$e1n@s <50konm$38n2@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <50m7ju$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <6SEP199623180308@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:04:55 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 23:18 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <50m7ju$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >> Whois Ken McVay? > Ken McVay is the Director of the Nizkor Project, which fights > anti-semitism and Holocaust denial on the web. >>McVay, Kenneth (KM1343) kmcvay@NIZKOR.ALMANAC.BC.CA >> 462 - 1150 North Terminal Avenue >> Nanaimo, BC V9S 5T8 >> CA >> 1-604-382-0615 > As Giwer has been so kind to repeatedly post this post office box and > advertise for contributions to the Nizkor Project, I would like to > point out that while this is not the best address to use, you can send > contributions to the Nizkor Project at this address. They will be > properly received and placed to good use. You will receive a Canadian > Tax receipt for your donation (which will work just fine in Canada no > matter what Matt Giwer insists). If you desire a prompt response and a > current copy of the Nizkor Newsletter, you might opt to use the correct > Nizkor address which is: > Congregation Emmanu-El / Nizkor Project > 1461 Blanshard St. > Victoria, BC > V8W 2J3 > If you wish to make an American contribution for an American tax > receipt, please write your contribution to: > "SAN ANTONIO AREA FOUNDATION - Nizkor Fund" > and mail to: > San Antonio Area Foundation > Nizkor Fund > P.O. Box 120366 > San Antonio, TX 78212-9566 > Each time you see Giwer write this silly troll in place of a real > answer to questions put to him, just remember he is a poster boy for > why Nizkor exists. And if you would like confirmation of this > assertion in Matt Giwer's own words, please take a look at any of the > following sites: > http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/ > http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/ > http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/email/ > http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/net-abuse/ > http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/plagarized-01.html > http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lie-freely-admitted.html > http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/lies/thousand-dollar-wager.html > Thank you Matt for all you are doing towards keeping those > contributions rolling in. We couldn't do it without you. On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 08:01:46 PDT 1996 Article: 63479 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 05:03:43 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <50tk4g$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50ij8q$lgq@news.enter.net> <50jsgj$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <50m6rl$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:04:16 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:28:04 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote: >In article <50m6rl$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 18:32:57 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca >> (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote: >> >> >In article <50jsgj$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >> >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> >[other giwer nonsense deleted.] >> >> >> > Have you protested the fact that this regularly done? >> >> >> >> Yes you are a lying fake attorney. >> >> >The liar is you, you beady eyed little twit. If you had an inkling of how >> >to make use of your internet connection, you could verify this in less >> >than 60 seconds. >> >> How would you know? You have no ability to judge. >It doesn't require a judge to use a web browser and a search engine. Try >reading what is written for once. Silly little handles do not have the ability to judge. You in particular do not. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 10:48:54 PDT 1996 Article: 142417 of control Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: cmsg cancel <50t7h1$avs@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> Control: cancel <50t7h1$avs@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> Date: Sat, 07 Sep 96 21:32:05 PST Organization: images incarnate Lines: 7 Message-ID: <50t7iu$avs@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on10-16.netcom.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 9:30:06 PM EDT 1996 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.6 Article <50t7h1$avs@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> canceled by WinVN Cancel Reason: NONE GIVEN From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:00:29 PDT 1996 Article: 63511 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Required Amount Of Zyklon Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 15:24:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50uogi$47u@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4vn109$651@news-e2d.gnn.com> <4vq2l0$6dv@news-e2d.gnn.com> <4vul6s$iao@news-e2d.gnn.com> <507mdu$5dc@arl-news-svc-5.compuserve.com> <508c43$dia@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <50fjro$qcu@hil-news-svc-6.compuserve.com> <50h3ra$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50pqd4$re8@hil-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 10:25:06 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 18:24:56 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>>On Fri, 30 Aug 1996 21:29:53 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav >>>>Bilik) wrote: >>>>>In breaf:: 1/ the CO2 was competing with the HCN if the walls were >>>>>wet, so very little HCN could react with the walls; >>>Ionic enough, huh ? H2CO3 is a stronger acid than HCN. That's a >>>competiting effect, since HCO3- can replace the CN- in the cyanide >>>compounds. >> Precisely but your interpretation si self-serving to the arugment you >>wish were true. >Do you mean that the H2CO3 is weaker than HCN, and that the cyanide >compounds willn't likely be replaced by carbonates ? We have been over this. Look it up. You will learn again that CO2 is not an acid, again. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:00:30 PDT 1996 Article: 63518 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:56:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 433 Message-ID: <50tjmv$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50m5va$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <6SEP199622572180@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:57:03 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 22:57 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <50m5va$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >>On 4 Sep 1996 07:01 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny >>Mittleman) wrote: >> >>> We have below here a summary of the Matt Giwer philosphy of the world. >>> To sum: "Anyone who doesn't see the world exactly as Matt Giwer sees it >>> is an idiot." This philosophy works very well as all questions are >>> answered by it. And as a further bonus, since no one sees the world >>> exactly as Matt Giwer sees it, everone is an idiot. Except for Matt >>> Giwer. >> >> Another holohugger defending belief in non-existent gods. > Nope, its an atheistic remark. It doesn't advocate a philosophy, it > merely argues that the Giwer is God religion is illogical. > ----- > Has Matt Giwer posted something that has you tweaked? Are you > thinking of spending time and energy responding to his troll? > Then consider what he said in Message-ID > <50p1ne$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>: > "You keep reading [my posts] and keep posting about them. > That will waste your time while I concentrate on posting the > idiocies of the holohuggers. I will post just enough to you > folks to keep you interested and keep your limited time > wasted. I have 18 hours a day seven days a week if I wish." > Mr. Giwer is, as he admits above, a troller whose only interest is in > causing fights. While he can sound plausible, he has lied about what > has been said in exchanges (while accusing others of lying), refused to > document claims, pretended not to see posts which contain documented > refutation of his claims (even when they have been emailed to him), > engaged in actual libel, and generally conducted himself with such > complete lack of intellectual and factual integrity that it seems > counterproductive to take the time to read and respond to him. > For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt and the > various subdirectories beneath this. > But, in particular, reread the quote from him above and ask yourself, > "do I really think it good use of my time to argue with this guy, or > should I just ignore his outrageous statements?" If you feel you must > respond so that the novice reader is not fooled by him, consider > clipping this post and using it as your reply. > daniel david mittleman >=========================================================================== > For More Information on the Holocaust see The Nizkor Project > Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ > North America: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ > (Under construction - permanently!) On 3 Sep 1996 09:00:31 GMT, nizkor@veritas.nizkor.org (Nizkor USA) wrote: >Archive/File: places/poland/wlodawa/wlodawa.016 >Last-modified: 1993/03/22 > The Life and Fall of Wlodawa and Surroundings > Translated by Shoshana Leszczynski > (Transcribed by Ken McVay, kmcvay@nizkor.org) > [Please refer to Wlodawa.001 for transcription comments] > THE TRIAL OF THE EXECUTIONER OF SOBIBOR > Shimon Kanz >A jury of judges, prosecutors and defendors who arrived from >Germany and headed by the Israeli judge Dr. Beniski, heard testimony for >3 days at the court of Tel Aviv. The testimony was given by Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann who survived after the revolt and who had refused to go to >Germany in order to testify at the trial of the executioners of Sobibor. >Her testimony led to a loud and stubborn victory of the persecution > over the defense. The more she continued in her descriptions of >the hell she had experienced the more appeased the noise of the >prosecutors and their questions and comments stopped and they lowered >their heads. >In the eyes of the Jewish judge, who himself had tasted the camps of >Hitler, stood tears and his voice hardly found its way through throat. Obviously not impartial but then this is Israel. > SPECTACLES OF CRUELTY >"Don't ask me for exact dates", said Mrs. Lichtmann to the provocating >and torturing questions of the lawyers. "At that time no calender >existed but on the other hand I remember the events of those days which >I am describing because they will remain deeply rooted in my memory >throughout my life." It appears that unlike the war crimes trials, the defense was permitted a meaningful crossexamination. >The awful depressed the mood and atmosphere of the courtroom. Horrow >accompanied the route from Krakow from where the Germans had openly >exiled her, through Miliz, Dubinki, Charaschow, and other places on the >bloody road to Sobibor. Physical and mental pains, blows and >humiliations. Her husband Mark Weismann was killed with stones during >the work in the camp Postak. "Stone him. Stone him." "Jehovah! Jehovah!" Stoned? Who biblical. But maybe he really just inhaled. >The strikes and blows of the SS-men and Ukrainians while passing the >"Spalier" (their lines) before the entrance of the concentration points. >Already at the beginning of her simple words the lips whispered >automatically: "Is this possible?" From where did this woman with her >delicate face and blue eyes, take the strength to endure these tortures? >From where did she have the strength to tell again of her suffering? She was a prostitute, professional witness and avoiding prosecution for her treatment of women in the camps as were so many of the witnesses. > DEVILISH LAUGHTER DEAFENS THE SCREAMING OF THE DYING Devilish laughter. Melodrama testified to in court. The evil always laugh as devilishly as they can. Ming the Merciless did it too. Is any adult to take this seriously? Of course not. Only holohuggers believe this sort of crap. >She recalls events of Jews struck and shot on Dobinko. In Dobinko the >Jews were loaded on wagon trains that went to Charabishow. >Planes flew over the train shooting with machine guns into the wagons. >They lowered the planes so that we could see the faces of pilots. And the pilots were also shooting at the drivers and the engine/horses of these wagons, depending upon translation. And >when they stopped the shooting for a while we heard them laughing. The >devilish laughter deafened the screaming of those laughing. Devilish laughter heard from pilots in the air over the noise of the engine. Real true holohugger fantasy life here. And they could see the faces of pilots from inside closed wagons. This woman certainly has to be paid for this performance. >On the way somewhere near to Dubinko, they were taken out of the wagons >and the men and women were forced to strip off their clothes and to >begin dancing. The voice of Mrs. Lichtmann breaks off. Ah, yes, dancing. Dancing to the devil's tune no doubt. Very efficient these Nazis. >Her face reflects her feeling of tortures and inability to tell all. Her >words shiver and only an echoe is heard of those awful days which >had become from day to day more terrible. A true whacko so far. >They were kept on the ground only one day. It was fenced in with barbed >wire and again they were loaded on the wagons, like cattle from the >slaughter and brought to Sobibor. Usually the journey from Charobichow >took several hours. But then it extended to eternity and no one, >neither Mrs. Lichtmann nor someone else from the survivors, remembers >how long they travelled in the closed wagons. So who could remember how long they traveled in closed wagons when they could remember the faces of the pilots from the closed wagons? This person is truly psychotic. >Nevertheless, the journey lasted for a few days and the German soldiers >were amused by their victims. There on the station before Sobibor the >Ukrainians broke into the wagons and plundered jewelry and those who did >not succeed to take of the ring of their finger in time, had the ring >taken off together with the finger... "You don't need either the finger >nor the ring any more" the wild Ukrainians consoled their victims! "Soon >you will be broiled and soap will be made from you, dist". Certainly fingers were just pulled off. Tell me the truth. This was written by Stephen King, right? >The Polish farmers also waited in front of the entrance to Sobibor and >shouted at the Jews in the transports. "Throw us your money, anyway it >will not redeem you from death, you are going to the gas chamber." But it was a secret and the farmers could not know about it. But here it is not a secret and they do know about it. It is also an interesting speech. Maybe it translates to a chant. You will note below that no one understood what was being said in the same testimony. > THE SPEECH TO THE TRANSPORTS >The shouts of the Poles penetrated into the conscience of those weakened >from hunger and thrust pains and agony and they started >screaming and yelling thus deafening the camp. >The SS-man Michel who was called by the camp inhabitants "the speaker" >as he received the arrivals with a prepared speech, did not have what > to say to the Polish Jews. Those were received with whips and >gunshots. The Polish farmers also shouted at the Jews from Holland, >Belgium, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria and Greece - but those did >not understand the meaning of their shouts. They did not understand the shouts. Then where did the translation of the chant above come from? This witness? >At their arrival to the camp they were welcomed with a speech by Michel: >"You have to be disciplined. Strip off your clothes, make a nice bundle >of them and attach them to the luggage, in order to recognize them >immediately after the shower, because you will not receive other >clothes here." Right, bundles of clothes. Every found a bundle of clothes. No one has. >Among the transport of 7,000 men with whom Ada Lichtmann arrived in the >year 1942 and who went on the same day to the gas chamber only three >women survived chosen to work in the laundry. With an indication of his >finger the SS-commander took her out of the line and asked her for >profession. When she answered that she was a teacher he and his >assistants broke out in laughter: "We will teach you to be a >laundress... Choose two other girls." Her closest friends Bela Sobol and >Sarka Katz were already beyond the gate on the way to the crematorium, >but she managed to get them out of the line. In other words, like the soap threat earlier, she has no knowledge of what happened after that point. The gassing all her fantasy. >The Jews believed the Germans and in astonishing order they packed their >belongings and after an hour not even one was alive, only a few >craftsmen were allowed to survive. But she has no way of knowing. > SHOUTS GOING UP TO THE SKY IN THE NIGHT >We three organized the laundry in the camp. Until then the German >officers too were dirty and lice-infected. In the course of time the >laundry was enlarged and women from other transports arriving daily were >distributed to us. The judges realized how Mrs. Lichtmann hesitates in >her narration and talk to her kindly: "Talk, remember as much as you >can". They organized a non-existant laudry and then that non-existant laundry was expanded. Note here that the judge leads the witness. A typical war crimes tactic. >The tension in the hall extended also to the memory of the woman. She >feels the good eyes of Dr. Beinski on her and of the stenotypist, a >Lieutenant in the police Mrs. Hela Koslowski who stops her tears while >writing every word going out of her mouth. >The Germans do not want to hear about what she knows to tell but what >she has seen with her own eyes. Who is it that does not want hearsay? But how can she not tell about the >shouts of women who arrived with the night transports. That is a question and she can not tell because she did not witness it. What in the hell does the author think witness means? The heartbreaking >shouts and screaming ceased for a moment and then once again beginning >penetrating the limbs and soul. The SS-men boasted the next day that >they raped the most beautiful women in front of the whole transport. But she was not raped. Must have been real ugly. >Generally the transports arrived during the day. Once on a hot summerday >a transport arrived with thursty people as it had been for several >days since they had tasted a drop of water. The SS-officer allowed some >to go and fetch water, but there the "Unterscharfu"hrer" Michel was >already waiting for them and he made them run to a dug uphole which >served as a privy and forced them to smear their body and face with the >excrement. And thus he brought them back to the thursty people of >the transport. From another transport young men were forced to beat each >other to death. The last one remaining from this terrible battle was >shot by the Germans. And all of this from what she did not witness. Quite amazing that this is level of testimony that was introduced in capital trials. Even more interesting that crossexamination was not permitted. > HEROIC DEEDS IN SOBIBOR >The stories of Mrs. Lichtmann and her husband whom she met in Sobibor >after the revolt are horrifying. >They tell how the semi-alive victims tried to maintain to the last >moment not only their human faces but also their human soulds. They tell >about women who tried to save their children and were desparately driven >to perform heroic deeds: About young mothers who attempted with their >own bodies to cover and to defend their children. They tell about the >Jewish officer of the Spanish civil war who immediately after his >arrival tried organizing a revolt. The Germans found out about it and >they chose 72 men and sent them to the crematorium. This massacre was >supervised by the "Oberscharfu"hrer" Frenzel whose trial is taking place >at the present inferment. Returning from the scene of the murder he >ordered the quick erection of a temporary stage out of some planks, >called for the orchestra, gathered the women and told them to sing and >dance. Thank you, Steven Speilberg. Jewrassic Pork lives. >This Frenzel once caught a boy red-handed, eating sardines, he gathered >all the Jews from the barracks and in front of all he shot the child. Eating sardines. Are they not Kosher? >Sobibor did not become at once a concentration of plants and workshops. >The camp gradually expanded, developed slowly, erecting all kind >of workshops. There work was done only for the German officers and >guards. Coats, dresses, furs were sewn there for them, their wives and >mistresses. Very few Jews were sent to the forest to shop trees. >Once the Jews of such a group attacked their guards, killed them and >escaped. The Germans took revenge on other Jews. But all considered the >heroism of the escaped as a miracle and dreamt of doing the same. Giving the number of escapes from A-B and every camp this is old news. > THE REBELLION COMMITTEE >Sasha Pizurski who was brought to the camp with a group of prisoners of >the Russian army immediately formed a committee to prepare a revolt. To >this committee belonged also the heroes Leibl Feldhendler, Shaul >Felischmann and others who strongly detested the Germans and had decided >revenge. Excuse me. It took people who detested to Germans to arrive to organize this and yet the people there knew of 95%+ being gassed by them? >In the barracks weapons were started to appear: axes and knives. How >dangerous this was! How much courage, cunning, patience you had to use >in order to conceal this. Many efforst of the spirit and mind, will and >courage had to be used to take guns, rifles, bullets from the >storehouses. The participants of this operation were divided into >groups. The plan was worked out to the smallest details: Every group >and its duties - really imaginative tasks: Some had to assault the >guardtowers where the guards sat with machineguns; some had to tempt >the officers into coming into the workshops; others had to attack the >guards that were wandering about. Special men had to cut off the >telephone and electricity lines and tear down the barbed wires - to make >passage ways. But gassing most of the arrivals was not enough. > THE MALIGNENT BLOOD OF THE SS-MEN IS SHED >The revolt was fixed for October 14, 1943. 700 condemned to death >enthusiastically took their fate into their own hands. Until the >prearranged sign was given every group had performed its tasks well. >Nevertheless things which had not been expected in advance happened. >Guns started firing from both sides, axes and knives greedy for blood >shone in the air and the whole camp changed into a battlefield. On this >day, October 14, at 5 o'clock in the afternoon there began on the >hellground of Sobibor the shedding of the malignent blood of the SS-men >and their Ukrainian assistants. Those who had been so sure of themselves >when millions of innocent women and children were led to death, seemed >now anxious and inferior, they became confused and ran like mice into >the trap looking for a hiding place. Sobibor gasse millions. How can the world have missed this. >The SS-men and the police pursued the escapers. They mobilized airplanes >and the Polish farmers of the area to help them pursue the fleeing Jews. >Only a few pitied the victims and did not hand them over to the Germans. >Out of 700 escaping from Sobibor only about 30 survived. Also Mrs. Ada >Lichtmann and two of her friends, one of them a Polish woman called >Alina Stern-Sofermann, who is living in Israel succeeded, with help of >some young Poles, in arriving to the partisans in the woods of Parzew >and continued their war against the German army. But until they reached >the forest they wandered around day and night around the camp, living >of tree leaves and poisonous mushrooms that so burned their >intestines that they wished to die. They did not live off of them. >They lowered their eyes and one of them was turning his head from side >to side replied: "No, we did not easily agree to accept such a mission. >It was forced upon us officially". And the second added: "Its a good >thing that you did not agree to come to Germany,,,, so we were enabled >to come to Israel, a wonderful journey." One of the present in the hall >heard this conversation said: "The blood of the Jews shed by the Germans >flowed like a river. Don't you think that by defending the murderers you >emphasize the responsibility of the German people of what took place." >The two defenders ignoring the question avoided answering and the >question remained unanswered. Most likely they would have been shot for doing so. That is the way the holocaust works. ===== http://www.codoh.com/ ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:00:31 PDT 1996 Article: 63541 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ashtopsy? WASRe: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:08:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 39 Message-ID: <50uukg$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322B1A72.167E@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50m28c$1sf@juliana.sprynet.com> <322f44cb.6655434@news.zilker.net> <50ort0$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <3230B32C.2EA9@ccnis.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:09:36 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 19:26:36 -0400, Annie Alpert wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> So where are the autopsey reports? Non-existant? You are correct, no >> one can understand holohugger reality. That no one can produce them >> proves they must exist. >> >You can't autopsy a pile of ashes. There were no autopsies. There are no piles of ashes either. Thousands of tons of ashes and not found. But as you recall, Holohuggers have claimed there are autopsey reports to you all get together and get it straight whether or not there was autopsey reports and then get back to me. Fair enough? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:00:32 PDT 1996 Article: 63544 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: It is libel to call me a nazi. Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:00:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 89 Message-ID: <50uu4q$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <5LVAoOev1CI0065yn@login.dknet.dk> <50gnnr$93j@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:01:14 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 20:23:24 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote: >In article <50gnnr$93j@news.enter.net>, Yale F. Edeiken wrote: >>> olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes: >> >>> A very important feature in nazism is dictatorship >>> as well a social darwinism. Without being an adherent of this it will be >>> libel to call somebody a nazi. >> >> An American jury would laugh at this argument. > In that case I would ask the jury the following the question: "Can Nazis >be democratic? Since when have the nazis dropped the leadership principle >(Fuehrerprinzip)? And since when have the nazis embraced the social welfare >state as I do?" >*You cannot be a nazi if you are not in favour of dictatorship*. >>> There have also been several cases in DK >>> where opponents of immigration have been called racists in public. A racist >>> is defined as one who think that his race is superior to others and that >>> one race has a natural right to rule over other races. Those anti- >>> immigration people had never advocated such views, and they therefore won >>> their cases. >> >> You, on the other hand, have advocated those views. >> > You are lying. I have never advocated the right of one race to rule >other races. This would have meant that I am tolerating different races >living within the same state which I certainly do not. Holohuggers not only have a mission of supporting the least documented event in history, they must also use it (as the only tool they have) to discredit anyone who disagrees with them. They have their own political agenda. As it is based upon emotions and feeling rather than reason it is not possible to describe it in any detail. But it does include, for the US at least, breaking down every form of immigration control unless it applies to Germans over 65 years old. To promote that agenda, and being unable to do so on a rational basis as they have none, they promote with emotional tactics, in this case calling people nazis. In the US they also use "isolationist" as it refers to the US not having entered WW II earlier. It would be desirable if some time these name callers could work out a rational policy statement or set of objects that they think the US and other countries should achieve. But as it is, at least in the US, it is simply an excuse to call names of anyone they consider politically conservative. More correctly, they are an arm of one of our political parties, the Democrats. The Democrats get a fairly consistent 90% of both the Jewish and the Black vote in every presidential election. So not only do they support Democrats but they use their name calling to attack Republicans. It is worse than the Christian right as, while they are not rational, at least they spell out their objectives. Over here the holohuggers hvae no political objectives other than to promote liberal Democrats. To go further, liberal Democrats have a view of the economy that holds business should be the means of promoting the political agenda of the party. Using business for a political agenda is a rather familiar concept to those who have looked at Italy and Germany pre-WW II. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:56:19 PDT 1996 Article: 63545 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ashtopsy? WASRe: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:11:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50uuoo$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <3230B32C.2EA9@ccnis.net> <50r9cp$on2@juliana.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:11:52 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 7 Sep 1996 07:48:41 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >> Annie Alpert writes: >> Matt Giwer wrote: >> > So where are the autopsey reports? Non-existant? You are correct, no >> > one can understand holohugger reality. That no one can produce them >> > proves they must exist. >> > >> You can't autopsy a pile of ashes. There were no autopsies. >> >> >> -- >> Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource >> Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi? >> European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/ >> Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ >> >>>>> >You're wrong, Miss Alpert. The claim is that autopsies were conducted at Dachau >on a number of deceased inmates by a Dr. Larson,. Are you willing to produce them? That was a rhetorical question. Of course you are not. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:56:21 PDT 1996 Article: 63549 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:17:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 60 Message-ID: <50uv4k$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322f44cb.6655434@news.zilker.net> <50r98b$on2@juliana.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:18:12 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 7 Sep 1996 07:46:19 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >Mike Curtis writes rblackmore: >> >> Another one of those "because I say" so guys, folks. >Really? Where's the evidence? > > >> >Nonetheless, the claim is that autopsies were conducted. Where are the reports? >> >Don't quote me people's opinions, including the doctor's. >> >> This guy refuses to understand reality folks. >Are you dense, or what? I asked for copies of the written medical reports...I don't want to >hear your inane excuses, I want to view the reports which you say were written out at the >time. >Is it that difficult? I think people are getting wise to the tactics of holocacaust "affirmation". >now... Yes it is very difficult for them as they can not produce what did not exist. Nor did any gas chamber as the Army admitted around 1955 or so. These folks are very behind the times. It is a rather common tactic when they are pushed into a corner (very often) to pretend the other person does not understand. >> This doesn't fly here. This is what is called by lurkers as a typical >> cop-out. >Look who's calling the kettle black! Where's those autopsy reports? You seek the GRAIL!!! That must be the autopsey shaped beacon. Naughty Sousse. He doesn't have any grails, you silly english kinigits. On second thought, lets not go to Auschwitz, it's a very silly place. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:56:21 PDT 1996 Article: 63554 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2 Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:31:56 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 104 Message-ID: <50uvvi$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <322FF9AD.41C6@itsa.ucsf.edu> <50raj0$on2@juliana.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:32:34 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 7 Sep 1996 08:09:04 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: > > >> > > Brian Harmon writes: >> > > , well, let me make a few points first: >> >> Numerous eyewitnesses, including Ho"ss, Broad, Kremer, Eichmann, >> and Mu"ller all testified that mass gassing occurred at Auschwitz in >> these gas chambers. >Well, we can discuss the merits and demerits of their case another time. Another common tactical attempt to divert the issue. >> Aerial photos show a rather suspicious pit near one of the Kremas >> during the summer of 1944, lending credence (snip) >OK. What does this prove? It proves nothing. I means that no one dug it up to see what it was and IF it was even a feature rather than an artifact of the clouds or ground cover. We know that the Kremas often broke down and >that typhus and epidemics were a constant scourge at Auschwitz. It was admitted >that bodies needed to be burned out doors when the kremas were out of service. >What else were they to do with them? We see prisoners marching in the direction >of the ALLEGED gas chambers. Actually we see no such thing. That interpretation of the aerial photos was done by holohuggers. The problem is that from one photo to another, they are moving in a zigzag and are at least jogging. >> In this article, O'Keefe claims that Larson did not find any evidence of gassing. >> >> What isn't mentioned is that mass gassing took place at camps inside Poland: Auschwitz, Treblinka, etc. >> and not at Dachau, where Dr. Larson was. >> >> In Auschwitz's case, the mass gassing stopped many months _before_ the soviets liberated the > camp" >No, the last gassings were alleged to have occurred at the end of October or early Nov., 1944, >just a few months before the liberation of the camp. Three months, you are course correct but then there are certainly other stories claiming something entirely different. >> > > Oh? So the piles of starved corpses found there died due to >> > > 'disease?' >> > >> > Yes. typhus and dysentery are "wasting diseases". >> >> Are you honestly saying the Nazis did not have any responsibilty for the >> many thousands of inmates they let die from these diseases? >I think that responsibility is measured in degrees. It is not an easy question >to address. Many Germans also died from typhus in the camps. Typhus is no >respecter of persons. Back to the non-existant autopsey reports, please. >> You don't think the fact that the inmates were starving to death had >> anything to do with there susceptiblity to disease? Or the squalid conditions >> they were forced to live under? >Yes, of course. But conditions in the camp had only deteriorated in 1945. >Mr. Harmon-your post is unconvincing, especially since you mention Mark Van Alstine. >Look up his egregious error in Mark Alstine Rages, for one. There are more. And I believe >you are in error concerning Larson. Auschwitz was liberated MONTHS before the liberation of Dachau. >It is clear that the bodies he examined were from Dachau. You people all miss the point on hand and now >I am of the opinion that this is done deliberately. Therefore, I will ask again: Where are the autopsy >reports filled out by Larson, and where are the documents relating to the chemical tests undertaken >which would prove the victims died from cyanide poisoning. . And of course the bodies of those gassed in the non-existant gas chamber had to have been still around from the last gassing to be examined. The last time these holohuggers were making such claims they would have had to have been laying around for some four months. Of course it is possible to collect enough maggots to make the test for cyanide but then he would have invented the technique when it was first used in the late 1970s in the US. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:56:22 PDT 1996 Article: 63557 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Thinks that U.S. Courts are part of the Inquisition Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:43:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 99 Message-ID: <50v0lt$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50ot6j$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50p6ok$b9s@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:44:29 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 12:51:32 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> If and ONLY IF it is of the body being autopseied and there are no >> such reports. > Are you now denying that Dr. Larson conducted autopsies? I said there are no such reports. Perhaps you can not read. >> >When a qualified expert gives an opinion based on >> >his own observation, it is evidence. >> >> Which of course he presents within the report. First in forensic >> terms on the cover sheet and then in medical terms in the body of the >> report. > You must therefore read the report. Yu are the one challenging its >conclusions. Go to work, Matty poo. The reference is of course to the format of a pathologist's report, oh illiterate one. Provide any such report by Larson showing cyanide or any source of such reports. But we all know you can not because there were never any such reports. >> >Larson's report was based upon numerous >> >autopsies and inspections of cadavers which he performed. Cyanide >poisoning >> >is fairly easily determined by an expert > >> It is good to see you admit that there are no autopsey reports. None >> were prepared or presented. None exist. > I admit nothing of the kind. His report was presented and is part of >the record. That is your claim but it is unsupported by the existance of any such report. They are like Dahlman's police reports. >> It is also good to see that an attorney such as yourself would be >> suprised to see one in a criminal case. > Why would I be surprised. Larson did a job of a forensic pathologist. You have never read any of his reports so upon what grounds can you make that claim? >He was not dealing with a single case but several hundred. If his report was >deficient then demonstrate that. The conclusions have been posted here. If >you do not like them -- disprove them. As we know, anyone could claim anything about the Nazis during the Nuremberg trials without having to prove it. As we know, the US Army dropped the claim that there was ever a gas chamber at Dachau in 1955. As we know both Wiesel and Wiesenthal both agree there was never a gas chamber at Dachau. But we have what you folks claim are the conclusion which constitute hearsay and do not reference autopsey reports. But I guess the President would have said it would take to long to introduce the reports into evidence so did not permit it. Or perhaps the President simply ruled that his psychic powers let him rule that gassing without a gas chamber was self evident and did not have to be established. Mayber Larson heard maniacal laughter and saw naked Jewish women dancing at the full moon also. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:56:23 PDT 1996 Article: 63558 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Thinks that U.S. Courts are part of the Inquisition Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:48:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 115 Message-ID: <50v0v6$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50ou4m$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50p6e5$b9s@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:49:26 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 12:45:57 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> > The complete report was not posted here. I posted only the >> >conclusions. The acutal report runs about 100 pages. > >> So post the rest since you have it. > Sorry Matty poo. I don't spam. If you want to see it look it up. You are attempting to divert attention for the autopsey report does not exist. More precisely, that you are making it your claim about it. >> Particularly since Elie Weisel and Simon Wiesenthal both support my >> position, that you are wrong. > Please post the particulars that those two people agree with you. It has already been done. Look it up. >> But even holohuggers agree in their wildest imaginations that the >> gassing stopped months before the camp was liberated and that the >> bodies were cremated after being gassed. (Even though it is only the >> wildest-eyed holohuggers who still believe there was any gassing.) > Please give me some references. You lie to frequently to trust your >"memory." Post the autopsey reports are the subject of this thread. If you are unwilling to participate in it, please do not post to it. That is the subject of this discussion. Start your own thread if you want to change the subject. >> So there were no cadavers unless you are claiming he autopseyed >> crematoria ashes but never wrote up a report of his methods. That is >> quite the pity as it is beyond today's forensic abilities to do that. >> A great scientist, clear years before his time. > Read his report. >> That is because they were not conducted else there would be reports. > There are no reports of the IMT trials? There are no autopsey reports of death by cyanide in them. >> And while we are at dishonest, you deleted the following description >> of the kind of court you find up to the highest standards of >> jurisprudence. As a highly educated attorney it is only a commentary >> upon the decline of the justice system in the US that you find the >> following to ber proper court procedure. > I deleted it becasue it was nonsense fabricated by a denier. There was >not a single reference to a portion of the record. I do not find it to be part of a court >procedure that ever happened. I cannot, therefore, have approved of it. The IMT reference was included. Have another ... THIS IS YOUR IMT: The Timely DIstribution of Documents THE PRESIDENT: Have you any objection to that procedure? HERR BOEHM: Yes. The procedure as suggested is clear, but I think it is highly inadequate. I have as yet had no opportunity to get into my hands either of the two copies, which are said to be downstairs in Room 54, maybe because two copies are not sufficient for the purposes of 25 lawyers, especially if these copies are placed in Room 54 at 10:30 in the morning, when the session starts at 10:00 o'clock. It would not even suffice if these two copies for 25 of us were placed into our room on the day before, since it is not possible for all of us to make satisfactory use of these two copies. IMT III, p. 600 ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:56:24 PDT 1996 Article: 63566 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Thinks that U.S. Courts are part of the Inquisition Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 17:44:10 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <50v0mh$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50otf5$22b@juliana.sprynet.com> <50p625$b9s@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 12:44:49 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 12:39:33 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> rblackmore@juno.com writes: >> > "'Describing' that which he 'saw'" is exactly what an autopsy report is. >> > Have you ever seen one? When a qualified expert gives an opinion based >on >> > his own observation, it is evidence. Larson's report was based upon >numerous >> > autopsies and inspections of cadavers which he performed. Cyanide >poisoning >> > is fairly easily determined by an expert. >> Yes, I have seen autopsy reports. And now, I'd like to see Larson's. > Then look it up. They do not exist. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:56:25 PDT 1996 Article: 63568 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.conspiracy,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.perot Subject: Jewrassic Pork! Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 18:14:53 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 66 Message-ID: <50v2g3$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50l9ik$964@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <50p53m$pts@zot.io.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 1:15:31 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:63568 alt.politics.usa.republican:275905 alt.conspiracy:86288 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:372857 alt.politics.perot:55002 On 6 Sep 1996 08:23:18 -0400, kamamer@zot.io.org (karl mamer) wrote: >joebuck@ix.netcom.com(Charles) writes: >> >Actually, yes. It's called a charitable donation tax credit. >> >> Ohhhhhhhhhhh! So Spielberg merely got a "charitable donation tax >> credit"? (not!) >No. Spielberg got nothing. A foundation got a grant. And what >is Spielberg's relation to that foundation? Executive Director >I find it very odd that you single out Spielberg yet >you seem to ignore that many, many foundations that >receive government funding and tax breaks are >frequently chaired or run by fabulously rich people. What do they have to do with the holocaust? The next time Wiesenthal's swills at the public trough it will get the same treatment. >> You silly obfuscatin' fewl! >Many organizations wouldn't get donations if it wasn't for a >tax credit. What's the difference between a $1,000,000 donation >subsidized by a tax break or a straight out grant? It takes popular support to get it by donations. The loss to the treasury is at most $395,000 vice $1,000,000. Precious >little other than a few entries in red and black ink. You are ignorant of how it works. In >many cases if there was not a registered, private charity to >do the work, the government would end up haveing pick up >the slack anyway. Why would the government have to pick up the cost of his personal boondoggle? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 11:56:26 PDT 1996 Article: 63570 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer Subject: Jewish corn flakes Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 18:10:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <50v27t$49p@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <50fm22$kl2@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <50jee9$4a4@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <50nfjp$7f9@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <50ousl$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50pkeq$3fb@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 1:11:09 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:63570 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:530 On 6 Sep 1996 17:45:14 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>On 5 Sep 1996 22:10:17 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >>> If anyone else made these claims, I would expect them to at least try >>>to provide evidence. But with a track-record like his, Matt Giwer is the >>>_last_ person I'd expect to even have evidence! >> It has been posted several times. You know where to look it up. > Where would that be, Matt? Even if you are just referring to DejaNews, >it's still a big site. Tough shit. Holohuggers started telling me to look it up there. So go find it. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 17:24:03 PDT 1996 Article: 63597 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ausrotten and the only good Indian is a dead Indian Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:54:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 68 Message-ID: <50tjiv$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50c2d8$g7u@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <50g663$2ds@news.enter.net> <50h0jn$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50js92$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4SEP199607010613@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50m5va$oba@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <50onbr$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:54:55 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 06 Sep 1996 09:37:50 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote: >In article <50onbr$61d@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> On Thu, 05 Sep 1996 11:51:09 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca >> (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote: >[snip] >> >Actually, you anti-semetic little nazi twit (not name calling - an >> >'accurate description'), what he was doing is defending the right to >> >believe in whatever a person choses to believe in, without having to >> >suffer ridicule from beady-eyed, Hitler loving, little trolls (again, an >> >accurate description) like your yourself. >> You can believe whatever you want, in the US at least. However, that >> does not mean your stupidity can not be pointed out in public. The >> only protection in the US is against government prohibition of >> beliefs. After that, the whackos are up for grabs. >Freedom of Religion in the United States means the freedom to practice >religion without having to suffer miscreants like yourself. That you would >ridicule someone for their religious beliefs is telling of your innate >childishness. It means the freedom to practice without government interference and nothing more. If you had ever read the US Constitution you would know that. But then you were probably educated in a public school and simply do not know any better. After all, someone with such a silly handle can't be all that bright. >[snip] >> Incoherent? Here it is repeated for you. Obviously it is your >> english that is at fault. >Yes incoherent, and, even though you are an apparent whiz with the english >language, grammatically incorrect. >[snip - incoherent and grammatically incorrect sig deleted] Guess, oh silly handle ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Then when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 17:24:03 PDT 1996 Article: 63633 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!netnews.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: You don't need no steenking rebuttal Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 15:39:25 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 49 Message-ID: <50upci$4pj@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-58.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 8:40:02 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 THIS IS YOUR IMT: Allowing for Adequate Rebuttal SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The Defense are putting in about 300,000 affidavits which are being summarized in a number of general affidavits. [....] THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, the Tribunal has already said that it intends only to listen to you for half a day, and unless you shorten or unless you have in mind the shortening of your address it doesn't look as if you will be able to do it. [....] to deal with it in detail like this is simply wasting our time. Anyhow, what I mean is that at the end of half a day your address on these topics will cease. DR LATERNSER: But Mr. President, I must have an opportunity of answering the accusations of the Prosecution. THE PRESIDENT: You are having that opportunity at the present moment and you have had since 12 o'clock. IMT XXI, pp. 200, 395f ===== If the defense had been allowed to present a defense, perhaps there would have been no holocaust. On the other hand, this is the basis for the holocaust. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 17:32:21 PDT 1996 Article: 42400 of alt.politics.white-power Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.exodus.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.politics.white-power Subject: Re: WP Martyrs (was: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed...?) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 04:31:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <50ti8t$8q1@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <50nule$n5u@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <50reuv$20u@Networking.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Sep 07 11:32:29 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.censorship:99653 alt.politics.white-power:42400 On 7 Sep 1996 02:23:43 -0700, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote: >robk@rio.com (Rob Kowalewski) writes: > [responding to a troll] >>Does anything you just said contradict anything that I said? Weaver >>created the entire situation, both by action and inaction, and suffered >>severe consequences. If indeed the BATF did engage in entrapment (and I >>said IF), any reasonably adequate lawyer would have been able to get the >>charges punted. >In fact this is what happened, isn't it? In the end, I mean. >Given Mr. Weaver's state of clinical paranoia, I don't think it's >reasonable to have expected him to deal rationally with a lawyer. Perhaps you could cite the psychiatrist's report indicating clinical paranoia? On the other hand you can simply admit you made up the claim. As to your claim of dealing rationally with a lawyer, he had no problem dealing with Gerry Spense. Do you know anything about what happened? So far, it appears you know nothing of the case. >Yes, Weaver fucked up. Personally, I'd hold him mostly responsible. How can you hold him responsible when at the times of the deaths he had no idea who was doing the killing? Neither the marshalls nor the FBI identified themselves much less their intentions. The murder of his wife was no more than a summary execution. And the murder is still free. >However, constitutionally, he has the right to fuck up, and the >government, under the rule of law, doesn't. I cannot defend the actions >against him. The murderers are still free. >No, it's not a fair argument. It's not supposed to be. People, even >seriously twisted and evil people like Weaver, have rights. Governments >only have responsibilities. Cite your evidence of "evil" before you contine. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 18:05:40 PDT 1996 Article: 63635 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: THE CLONE COMA Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 23:45:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 66 Message-ID: <50vlsl$h4d@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <50ndrr$19n@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <50ppev$oq9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <50q1ha$s3o@Networking.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl16-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 4:46:29 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Sep 1996 13:28:26 -0700, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich Graves) wrote: >kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) writes: >>The System is yet strong, but it weakens increasingly the more multiracial >>it gets, month by month, year by year. It weakens further as Whites of >>specialized capability become increasingly conscious of their race's >>dissolution and genocide and of the unworkability and insanity of the >>multiracial society. It weakens further from the populace's increasingly >>resents a government that is deliberately allowing the nation to be >>invaded by floods of non-Whites of every shade. It weakens further due to >>increasing non-White crime which hectors and terrorizes Whites in every >>major city and increasingly in the suburbs, where sections that were once >>White and safe, are now non-White and crime-filled. >[...] >>Modestly speaking, I would say the System does not snowball's chance in >>hell of continuing indefinitely. >> >>There will be White people, concerned for their precious and unsurpassed >>gene pool and heritage, as well as for the simple future of their >>children, and for future generations, who will be willing to do whatever >>is necessary to help bring down a decaying System that is destroying them. >> The time is not now, but the time will come. >So, does anyone still believe that Kurt is Giwer? I have seen no >indication that Giwer is a member of The Organization. >Somebody's been taking some trashy novel too seriously. On the other hand I have heard over half of what he has said in one form or another said in the popular media without any challenge or approbrium. However there were a minor change. The change being that white was replaced by black or latino or some other "ethnic" group such as Indians have a "right to their heritage and to preserve thei values." What differentiates me from him is that I hold that all rights are equal regardless of anything else, that is no special rights or considerations ever for any reason. He is claiming the same special rights for whites as for other groups exemplified by those mentioned above. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 18:05:41 PDT 1996 Article: 63636 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power Subject: Re: Ye shall smell gas where there be no gas Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 23:49:55 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <50vm4a$h4d@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <50908b$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50g1dr$r34@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <50h7j6$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl16-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 4:50:34 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:63636 alt.politics.white-power:42441 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 09:51:57 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <50h7j6$am9@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> Yes, name calling, name calloing and namecalling. That being all you >> holohuggers have going for you. > >An accusation and an illustration? A statement of fact. >Accuse them of name-calling then call them names? In what manner is holohugger negative? >> You are very stupid. You are a holohugger. Those are redundant. > >No, Mr. Giwer. YOU are the stupid one, for you don't even know basic >punctuation. I'm not but you are. I haven't heard that one since early gradeschool. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 20:05:29 PDT 1996 Article: 63642 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: IMT #3 Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:14:59 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 61 Message-ID: <50vnja$h4d@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <50gmdh$e1n@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <322CA1F5.5D24@rio.com> <50sbql$lqo@arl-news-svc-4.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl16-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 5:15:38 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 07 Sep 1996 17:28:42 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >>> Matt Giwer wrote: >>> > >>> > KURT GERSTEIN >>> > >>> > Kurt Gerstein is often referred to as a Holocaust "witness"; >>however, >>> > this is not correct. By "witness", >It's a lot of lies. Gerstien wrote his six testimonies, all in >Rottweil and in a semi-liberty. These testimonies were corroborated by >Pfannenstiel for the most important part. Gerstein and Pfannenstiel >are eyewitnesses for Belzec and Treblinka. First it is unclear who wrote those six. All six disagree with each other on both major and minor points. No one can corroborate six different, conflicting accounts. He died shortly after and his body was dumped into a mass grave amid stories of torture. Other than that, nice try. >Gertein commited suicid two months later after he wrote these >testimonies. Sounds like the sort of thing unrealiable witnesses did in the 40s. Do you happen to have the autopsey report on it? Since he died in a military prison, the corpse will be >easily found: the habit is to bury the corpse in the prison itself. >Then go to Cherche-Midi and ask for the common grave. It's no a >mystery. Which of the bodies in the common grave is his? >Third, the PS-1553 was accepted in Nuremberg. Even Butz admitt it. Which version? ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 20:05:30 PDT 1996 Article: 63643 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!voskovec.radio.cz!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Wrong audience Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:37:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 73 Message-ID: <50vot9$h4d@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl16-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 5:38:01 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 This guy really should have written for National Lampoon in the old days. ====== So these quotes served to condemn Streicher to death? Inge sits in the Jew doctor's reception room. She has to wait a long time. She looks through the magazines on the table. But she is much too nervous even to read a few sentences. Again and again she remembers her talk with her mother. And again and again her mind dwells on the warnings of her B D M leader: 'A German must not consult a Jew doctor! And particularly not a German girl! Many a girl who has gone to a Jew doctor to be cured has found disease and disgrace!' [B D M: Bondage, Discipline, Masochism, right? Have to work something pornographic into this.] After entering the waiting-room, Inge had an extraordinary experience. From the doctor's consulting-room she could hear the sound of crying. She heard the voice of a young girl: 'Doctor, doctor, leave me alone!' Then she heard a man laughing scornfully. And then all of a sudden, absolute silence. [Laughing just like those pilots straffing wagons of Jews. Not just like, this is scornfully not manically.] Inge held her breath and listened. 'What can this mean ?' she asked herself and her heart was pounding. Once again she thought of her B D M leader's warning. Inge has now been waiting for an hour. She takes up the magazines again and tries to read. The door opens. Inge looks up. There stands the Jew. She screams. She's so frightened, she drops the magazine. She jumps up in terror. Her eyes stare into the Jewish doctor's face. His face is the face of a devil. In the middle of this devil's face is a huge crooked nose. Behind the spectacles two criminal eyes. And the thick lips are grinning. A grin that says: 'Now I've got you at last, little German girl!' The Jew approaches her. His fleshy fingers stretch out for her. But now Inge has recovered her wits. Before the Jew can grab hold of her, she slaps the Jew doctor's fat face. Then a jump to the door, and Inge runs breathlessly down the stairs. She escapes breathlessly from the Jew house...." (Noakes, 468-470) ===== It is a great parody. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 20:05:31 PDT 1996 Article: 63645 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Always believe Russina Sources Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:19:59 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 55 Message-ID: <50vnsn$h4d@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <322CA5E8.5674@unb.ca> <50qejk$5k5@juliana.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl16-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Sep 08 5:20:39 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 7 Sep 1996 00:11:32 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >> Keith Morrison writes: >> Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> > >>Then there's of course human lampshades, >> > >> > > Buzzer there. Found at Buchenwald by the Americans, confirmed by an >> > >American army pathology laboratory as tanned human skin. >> > >> > In fact confirmed as goatskin and even as imitation leather, as you >> > know. But they can not be retested, they vanished just like all the >> > rest of the physical "evidence." >> >> Goatskin and imitation leather with tattoos? Obviously goat herders >> with a lot of time on their hands. Maybe they had 163 IQs, "retired" at >> 46 and lived a little too long with their goats. >> >> -- >> Keith Morrison >> t08o@unb.ca >> >>>>> >And where are these exhibits today? Of course they are available for inspection >today.....aren't they? Are they? Do you mean people just have to take your word >for it? The shrunken heads of the "prisoners" were returned to the museum's South American exhibit from where they were borrowed. The rest of the exhibits were found for what they really were and disposed of as incriminating on the prosecution. It is better to have them vanish so the analysis can be denied. ===== There's no business like Shoah Business Like no business I know. Everything about it is appealing, Everything that traffic will allow. No where can you get that happy feeling Than when your stealing There's no business like Shoah business It's like no business I know Everything about it is misleading Everything about it seems a fraud Can't you hear the rabbis when they're pleading For more donations to their cause From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Sep 8 20:05:32 PDT 1996 Article: 63646 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!eloi.vir.com!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n3ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Show your support - sign on here Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 00:44:00 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 39 Message-ID: <50vp9n$h4d@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <322c2b9f.4412894@news.pacificnet.net> <322c55c9.6702442@news.pacificnet.net> <322d8224.3398649@news.pacificnet.net> <4SEP199607301703@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <50meg5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.ne