The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1995/on-the-holocaust.9502



From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1378)
To:      Alan Hess                              23 Feb 95 02:27:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

AH>  MG>       I am making a different point.  Regardless of the 
AH>  MG>  number the result was the same for all numbers.  So why not 
AH>  MG>  simply a J?  I do not see any particular value in the 
AH>  MG>  process itself.

AH>  You forget what meticulous record keepers the Nazis were.  
AH>  With numbers, they were able to document each and every 
AH>  individual they captured.  Simple letters wouldn't do the 
AH>  trick.

     It is really about time to stop invoking this "meticulous" 
image ever time there is something unexplainable.  It is rather 
treating them as "subhuman" to imply it is some form of 
compulsive behavior.  

     People do not keep records without reason.  People do not 
make the time consuming effort of tattooing for no reason.  Given 
the claim of what the intention was there is no obvious 
explanation other than the "meticulous" invocation to explain why 
they gave a damn about it in the first place.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Satan is coming.  Everyone look idle.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 
 * Origin: DOC'S 822-4637, Fido. Internet Access Too!  (1:3603/20020.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/98 250/99 101 201 301 470 501 601 701 801 259/99 396/1 3603/20020
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 51




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1379)
To:      Jay Siegel                             23 Feb 95 02:33:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

JS> MG>PB>  Less chance of infection.

JS> MG>     Why would they care?

JS>  I suspect they only tatooed identification numbers on those 
JS>  concentration camp inmates designated for slave labor of 
JS>  some type.  They didn't bother with those who were bound for 
JS>  the gas chambers or other forms of immediate execution.  
JS>  With identification numbers tatooed on their arms, they 
JS>  could be kept accounted for easily whether they had clothes 
JS>  on or not.  No identification papers were required.  If 
JS>  they died, they were accounted for.  If they escaped it 
JS>  would have been known since that tatoo number didn't appear 
JS>  at roll-call.  The tatooed numbers helped the Germans 
JS>  maintain their maticulous records for the higher-ups.  With 
JS>  numbers the slaves were reduced to something less than 
JS>  human in the minds of the people running the camps.  It 
JS>  helped them justify the atrocious conditions of life in the 
JS>  slave labor camps and the disregard for the lives of the 
JS>  inmates since they were numbers rather than people with 
JS>  names.

     Read the stories.  The selection of work or execution was 
supposedly determined upon arrival at the camp.  But in any 
event, we still have the question of "why did they care?"  So 
they are going to work, so what?  The wrong person does the wrong 
job?  Someone is missing?  A hell of a way to see who it is that 
is missing.  "Are you really you or another jude?"  What was the 
point?  People really do not waste effort.  What was the point?

     Someone must have documented the reason as to why this was 
done.  Why tattoo if all you are going to do with it is burn it?

     On the other hand, the only apparent use for such a thing is 
long term identification of individuals and that is not 
consistent with the rest of the story.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * A sufficiently advanced person will appear to be god.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 
 * Origin: DOC'S 822-4637, Fido. Internet Access Too!  (1:3603/20020.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/98 250/99 101 201 301 470 501 601 701 801 259/99 396/1 3603/20020
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 51


From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1384)
To:      Peter Bradie                           24 Feb 95 00:55:00
Subject: AUSCHWITZ                              

PB>  MG>  Sounds like a Luddite objection.  "We murder the old 
PB>  MG>  fashioned way, by hand."

PB>  Making light of it is as bad as revisionist history, Matt, 
PB>  if not worse.  You can't trivialize a monstrosity.

     As I have pointed out it was nothing special in any regard 
since it occurred.  Such things are very common.  

     And we know, worshipping the holocaust does absolutely 
nothing to prevent repetition.  

     As to trivializing, the joke regarded the objection to 
mechanizing it.  I find it impossible to hold murder is worse 
because it is mechanized.  I have no idea how anyone can.  How do 
you?  Please explain.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Televangelists. The pro wrestlers of religion.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 
 * Origin: DOC'S 822-4637, Fido. Internet Access Too!  (1:3603/20020.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/98 250/99 101 201 301 470 501 601 701 801 259/99 396/1 3603/20020
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 51

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1386)
To:      Frank Palmer                           24 Feb 95 01:09:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

FP>  MG>  I am making a different point.  Regardless of the number 
FP>  MG>  the result was the same for all numbers.  So why not simply 
FP>  MG>  a J?  I do not see any particular value in the process 
FP>  MG>  itself.

FP>   You have obviously never been faced with the problems of 
FP>  inventory control;  

     I am very familiar with inventory control.  That is why all 
all boxes of cherry flavored have the same number and each box is 
not numbered for inventory purposes.

and that is when the inventory doesn't 
FP>  have legs and brains to hide, escape, answer role call in 
FP>  three places, etc.

     What does it matter which hiding or escaped J or C is found?  
Was the result any different?

FP>   The nazis needed to know which prisoner had done what.

     Why?  They were all to be exterminated, right?  So what was 
the point of knowing what any particular one had done?  I can not 
imagine the slightest reason to care exactly who was being 
reduced to ashes this week.



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Satan did not fall.  He was pushed.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.12 
 * Origin: DOC'S 822-4637, Fido. Internet Access Too!  (1:3603/20020.0)
SEEN-BY: 12/98 250/99 101 201 301 470 501 601 701 801 259/99 396/1 3603/20020
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 51


From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1473)
To:      Pete Bucy                              28 Feb 95 14:55:58
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

PB> MG>PB>   For the same reason that a social security card does not
PB> MG>PB>  have just a "J" or a "C."

PB> MG>      I am making a different point.  Regardless of the 
PB> MG> number the result was the same for all numbers.  So why not 
PB> MG> simply a J?  I do not see any particular value in the 
PB> MG> process itself.

PB>   A tattoo is the easiest way to *inventory* human 
PB>  machinery.  These people were slave labor.  With the numbers 
PB>  that they used, you could tell where this person belonged, 
PB>  who he worked for, or if it was time to terminate his 
PB>  model.

     Why inventory anyone?  The story has it that when they were 
unable to work they were exterminated.  What does a number have 
to do with that?  What does it matter who they worked for?  If 
they could not do the job the story has it they were 
exterminated.  This is not an answer.

PB> MG>PB> MG>     Why a tattoo rather than a brand?

PB> MG>PB>  Less chance of infection.

PB> MG>     Why would they care?

PB>  You don't want sick workers, if you can avoid it.

     First a brand has less chance of infection it cauterizes.  
But then if the purpose is extermination why bother with when 
they get sick?  The story has it they were sent to the camps FOR 
extermination.  Why the numbers?


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * I didn't make this world. I only brought it to its knees.
--- FidoPCB v1.4 [ff083/x]
 * Origin: The GIFfer BBS, 175,000+files (813)969-1089 USR/V.all (1:377/50)
SEEN-BY: 12/98 250/99 101 201 301 470 501 601 701 801 270/101 280/1 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 51




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1474)
To:      Pete Bucy                              28 Feb 95 14:56:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

PB> MG>      Revolting?  There are only so many times you can look 
PB> MG> at starving people and emaciated bodies and still be moved.  
PB> MG> There are only so many times the same story can be repeated 
PB> MG> before one is no longer impressed.  It is hard to imagine 
PB> MG> any adult being "revolted" any longer.

PB>   I don't believe that I shall ever reach a point where such 
PB>  horrors are not revolting to me.

     You must be working at it.  Frankly, the tapes I have seen 
from Rwanda and Somalia make Auschwitz look rather trivial.  I 
presume it is only the active shooting that has prevented similar 
tapes from Chechnya and Bosnia.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for rice.
--- FidoPCB v1.4 [ff083/x]
 * Origin: The GIFfer BBS, 175,000+files (813)969-1089 USR/V.all (1:377/50)
SEEN-BY: 12/98 250/99 101 201 301 470 501 601 701 801 270/101 280/1 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3615/50 51


Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.