The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1995/giwer_debate_9504


 R_9504 
+++ r_950425 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (909)
To:      Loralie Freeman                        23 Apr 95 05:31:38
Subject: EVOLUTION VS CREATION                  

LF> SP>LF> Although I do not believe that God created the world.  I 
LF> SP>LF> think the writer's of old were much wiser than most people 
LF> SP>LF> give them credit for.  There is much truth in myth.

LF> SP>Fire away.

LF>  Myths were created to present a certain view of the world, 
LF>  and to make sense of certain events.  There are very few 
LF>  modern myth writers:  Mary Shelley (Frankenstien) almost 
LF>  certainly, and Michael Crichton (esp.  Jurassic park) comes 
LF>  very close.  A warning that there are repercussions for 
LF>  dipping one's hand into that which we do not fully 
LF>  understand.

     Ah, such wisdom!

     So typical of religion.  Take the warning of fiction writers 
over reason.  It is rather disgusting actually.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (910)
To:      All                                    23 Apr 95 05:31:38
Subject: HOW TO DEMONIZE                        

                         How to Demonize
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/22>

     Demonization has started locally here in Tampa Bay.  WTOG
10:00 pm news on Friday the 21st opens with an announcement of
two arrests. It follows that with a clip of Clinton from the 19th
saying "these people will be convicted."  Next the raid in
Michigan is identified on the home of a member of the Michigan
militia.  Finally an interview with a spokesmen for the Florida
Law Enforcement organization saying there are organizations all
over Florida and they are dangerous.
     Let us review the truth as of the time and date of this news
report.  One person was arrested.  The second turned himself in
and is cooperating with investigators and has not been arrested.
The Clinton clip has nothing to do with the arrest or the
voluntary questioning.  The Michigan Militia has disavowed these
people being members.  The interview has nothing to do the militia
movement.
     Demonization has begun.  Despite every warning to withhold
judgment from the President on down until all the evidence is in,
this station has mischaracterized what is known as of this time
and date and has additionally given the impression Clinton has
identified them as being the people who did the bombing.  Further
they have deliberately left out enough information as to what is
known so as to accuse groups that can not have anything to do
with the bombing.
     Of course the voice over of the film clip of the one
arrested person being transferred to federal custody was certain
to point out the crowd shouted "baby killer."  Given most of this
news report was false there is no reason to expect this report
had any truth to it.
     Now there is no reason to expect these people were getting
the wrong news as they claim to have a "satellite news room" with
the impression from the multiple TVs that she is constantly
watching the satellite feed before reporting it.  Of course the
fact the screens always have WTOG logos on them does make
implication look a bit foolish.
     At least this part of the media has jumped onto its own
demonization bandwagon.  The target is the militia movement
despite the lack of evidence at this moment.  That they falsified
facts at the time is not of interest.  There are people who
listen only to this station, there are many more who listen to it
and who have not paid attention to events.  There are others who
will take this as fears fulfilled. 
     On the other hand, perhaps there are simply delusional
psychotics producing the news who can not tell fact from their
own fiction.
     In any event this is what happened at Waco.  Very few paid
close enough attention to know what really happened.  Instead
they are repeating false, incomplete or frankly delusional "news"
reports such as this.  The news can not deal with such niceties
as "turned himself in, is being questioned, and is cooperating
with authorities."  "Arrested" is what fits the news.
     The media can not deal with putting the date of a film clip
of the President that might at least give a hint that his
"statement" has nothing to do with what are falsely claimed to be
"two" arrests.  The media can not deal with the facts that are
known.  It can only deal with its preconceived conclusions.
     Many years ago I stopped searching for a smoothly working
reality behind apparent chaos.  Chaos is the reality.  There is
no conspiracy by the media to demonize anyone.  The media is
simply incapable of dealing with reality.  It really does believe
what is publishes.  It is not rational enough to differentiate
its simplistic view from facts.
     This is another example feeling over reason.  This is an
example of school learning over thinking.  There is no thinking
involved to let free association run wild, ignore conflicting
facts, to imagine there is "presidential" support for such
"conclusions."
     But then it does give the aimless an "artistic" framework
within which to "feel" about events.  Of course it is the aimless
leading the aimless but that is the media we are dealing with
today.  And quicker than you can say, "they abused children,"
there will be hundreds speaking as though this image is in fact
true.
     Welcome to the American education system.  This is what
Dewey hath wrought.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (911)
To:      Martin Fontenot                        23 Apr 95 05:31:40
Subject: SATANIC CONSPIRACY? N                  

MF> MG>CB>  Yes, and it's illegal if the purpose of that ritual is to
MF> MG>CB>  worship Satan.

MF> MG>     Who?

MF> Some Republican.

     What Republican?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (912)
To:      Carole Thomas                          23 Apr 95 05:32:06
Subject: EDUCATION: LEARN & TH 1/2              

 *************  Original From: MATT GIWER
 * FORWARDED *             To: CAROLE THOMAS
 *  MESSAGE  *    Date/Number: 04/22/95 - Not Yet Posted
 *************             On: GIFFER - 0014 - Baychat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


CT> MG>                 Education:  Learning and Thinking
CT> MG>                                by
CT> MG>                            Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/11>

CT> MG>      People from all walks of life are on the networks.

CT>      I don't think so.

     I can't think of one I have not run across, day laborer to 
corporate VP.  I can think of no class of occupation conspicuous 
by its absence, from "I can barely turn it on" to commercial 
software author.

CT> MG>       In the old days it was said that everyone would 
CT> MG>  support motherhood, apple pie and the flag.  Today, 
CT> MG>  motherhood is connected with abortion, the flag with the 
CT> MG>  Vietnam War and apple pie is fattening.  Such is the debate 
CT> MG>  on the networks, it reflects the spectrum of opinion on 
CT> MG>  current matters in the country and the world.

CT>      It is a rarefied atmosphere, a selective salon.

     I am open to reading the selection criteria.

CT>  MG>   They are educated but they do not think.  They have 
CT>  MG> learned the opinions of others but they can not think for 
CT>  MG> themselves.  At some time in their life they came to believe 
CT>  MG> that memorizing the opinions of others was the same as 
CT>  MG> education.  They never realized that knowing the opinions of 
CT>  MG> others was no more meritorious or useful than knowing in 
CT>  MG> 1492 Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

CT>       While a vast inventory of facts is not essential for 
CT>  the thought process to become operational, one is going to 
CT>  need some hard data at some point.  I mean, how long can 
CT>  one be considered a thinking person while just gazing 
CT>  mutely upwards.  At some juncture they might be asked what 
CT>  they're thinking about.  It would be impressive if they 
CT>  were able to say that they've learned a number of facts 
CT>  about what they're observing, but that these facts don't 
CT>  seem to account for some effect they're also observing.  In 
CT>  other words, rote learning does not necessarily lead one 
CT>  away from independent thought, but can provide a useful 
CT>  base for reflection.
CT> 
CT>       That the majority of the population never reaches this 
CT>  cognitive state is not necessarily an indictment of the 
CT>  educational system, but more likely an indicator of 
CT>  intellectual disparity.  After all, those who feel they are 
CT>  capable of independent thought were by and large subjected 
CT>  to the same educational system as those whom they consider 
CT>  so inept in the same process.  It is my unconsidered 
CT>  opinion that there are probably just as many 
CT>  thinking-capable people percentagewise as there has always 
CT>  been..maybe more.

     There are those who should know better yet they repeat 
memorized opinion as though it were reason.  At least when you 
read some of the old stuff you usually find the person giving 
credit when it is a learned idea.  Today, you find people 
speaking as though those learned ideas are the only ideas that 
exist.  They differ little from the fundie christian reciting the 
bible.  It is the truth all else should be dismissed as heresy.

CT> MG>      The thinking person has considered the facts to the best of
CT> MG> their knowledge and has come to in independent conclusion based
CT> MG> upon the tools of reason.  The tools of reason are most easily
CT> MG> described by what they are not.  They are avoiding logical
CT> MG> fallacies that so plague human thought.

CT>      Agreed.  A basic logic course should be required, although
CT> it is no guarantee that the principles will be applied.

     Far from being required, such thought is discouraged.  What 
else proves best to a child that thinking is not rewarded than 
the sham of "guided" discussion that results in the answer being 
guided is the only acceptable answer?

CT> MG>       The education system we have was designed and planned 
CT> MG>  to convince them that the mere knowledge of facts is 
CT> MG>  education.  A knowledge of history is defined by the 
CT> MG>  knowledge of a thousand dates and the ideas of others.  One 
CT> MG>  is educated in religion if one has memorized the bible.  
CT> MG>  One understands economics if one can recite the ideas of 
CT> MG>  others.
CT> MG> 
CT> MG>       Education is thinking or reasoning or having thoughts 
CT> MG>  that are at least original to the person having them.  
CT> MG>  Education is learning to think.  Disagree?

CT>       Education is a formal, systematic study of something 
CT>  that will not in and of itself result in independent 
CT>  thinking.  Education hopes to equip one with a body of 
CT>  knowledge which will render one capable of surviving in 
CT>  whatever world they find themselves in.  This knowledge is 
CT>  presented as a body of accumulated facts, theories, methods 
CT>  encompassing what is known.

     A more reasonable definition is that that is a technical 
school, a trade school.  

CT>       You can no more teach someone to think than you can 
CT>  teach someone to be creative.  Creative Writing courses, 
CT>  for example, are totally ridiculous as you do not produce a 
CT>  creative writer through formal coursework, but only succeed 
CT>  at best in producing a formal writer.  The creativity, the 
CT>  thinking, is what the student must bring with them to the 
CT>  educative process.

     The fallacies of logic can be taught.  There are rules.  The 
extent to which a particular person may be able to apply them is 
part of what is on an IQ test.  To some extent people are 
expected to know them.  Why they are not taught from youth is 
your guess as well as mine.  I would suggest it is because our 
college educated teachers do not have the slightest concept of 
the subject.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (913)
To:      Carole Thomas                          23 Apr 95 05:32:06
Subject: EDUCATION: LEARN & TH 2/2              

 *************  Original From: MATT GIWER
 * FORWARDED *             To: CAROLE THOMAS
 *  MESSAGE  *    Date/Number: 04/22/95 - Not Yet Posted
 *************             On: GIFFER - 0014 - Baychat
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

CT> MG>       Of what value is education if it is only to deal with 
CT> MG>  the past?  If the future is going to be different what is a 
CT> MG>  knowledge of the past?  Even with the idea that history 
CT> MG>  repeats, if people can not critically analyze the past and 
CT> MG>  the future for the similarities then of what value the 
CT> MG>  knowledge it does repeat?

CT>       The value of education is in presenting what has gone 
CT>  before in order that we may address the present as well as 
CT>  the future.  If we determine that "thinking" should be 
CT>  taught we are involving education with the transference of 
CT>  opinion in that teachers will be teaching how they think, 
CT>  that being inescapable as we little understand the workings 
CT>  of the minds of others.  Do we really know what Aquinas 
CT>  thought, how he may have arrived at these thoughts?  Or do 
CT>  we really only know a little about what he did, what he may 
CT>  have said, what effect what he did and said seems to have 
CT>  had?

     What we know of Acquinas is what he wrote.  They are some of 
the most convoluted logical fallacies and pyramided "if we assume 
that"s in history.  That anyone was ever impressed by him is only 
in support of what I am saying.  In those days the general lack 
of education was the only excuse.

CT> MG>       What is this idea that a child needs to learn the 
CT> MG>  basics first?  From thinking will come a learning of the 
CT> MG>  basics.  By rational refutation and teaching reason itself 
CT> MG>  there is time for a thousand errors along the way from 
CT> MG>  childhood to entering the world.  But our system is not 
CT> MG>  geared to that.

CT>       You are seriously hindering a child by denying them a 
CT>  basic education.  

     From where comes the presumption that facts and opinions of 
others are the basics?

It is unreasonable to expect a child to 
CT>  learn to read, write or compute without some formal system 
CT>  of instruction.  

     We have a formal system of instruction in this country.  How 
many high school graduates can not not read their diplomas?

Although I have no doubt some children will 
CT>  be capable of learning some way or another, it is grossly 
CT>  unjust to deny to them knowledge of methods and theories 
CT>  that can be quickly learned rather than laboriously 
CT>  discovered and that will endow them with the background 
CT>  needed for further creative activity.  The idiot savant 
CT>  plays a tune having heard it one time, but he is no Mozart, 
CT>  nor will he ever be.

     Nor is anyone a Mozart in any subject who has been told that 
because he has all the facts and opinions memorized, a thinker.

CT> MG>       Our system of education is designed to prevent 
CT> MG>  independent thought by rewarding rote memorization.  It 
CT> MG>  drills into children that life is a set of limited choices 
CT> MG>  in yes/no tests and multiple choice tests.

CT>      Much depends on the parents.

     Our system of education intends to exclude parents.  The 
only nod to them is to support what the teachers are passing out 
as learning.

CT> MG>       The obvious alternative is questions with essay 
CT> MG>  answers but our "teachers" say they can not evaluate them.  
CT> MG>  That we have such incompetents as teachers that can not 
CT> MG>  evaluate the writings of children is telling in itself.

CT>       Upon what should these essays be evaluated?  
CT>  Punctuation, grammar, spelling, adherence to margins?  

     Independence of thought.

CT>  Would we not be accepting the opinion of the teacher and 
CT>  should we expect that a teacher capable of teaching facts 
CT>  is also capable of evaluating creative thought?  

     I did not mean to suggest this is a first generation 
problem.  Our present day teachers are at least the third 
(de)generation of what I am talking about.  No one can seriously 
look at a Teacher's "college" and consider it an education.

Is this 
CT>  not more appropriately to be expected beyond the basic 
CT>  educational level, in the "community of scholars" setting?

     Not in my experience.  I have never met a child that did not 
have to be taught to avoid reason.  Everyone I have had the time 
to deal with takes to it naturally.

CT> MG>       But back to the point.  We have had this system of 
CT> MG>  education for so long that adults who can at least turn on 
CT> MG>  a computer can not think for themselves.  When a supposed 
CT> MG>  adult responds "everyone knows" it is obvious they have 
CT> MG>  never learned to think for themselves.  When they cite 
CT> MG>  authority you know they have never learned to think for 
CT> MG>  themselves.  When they give a quotation without being able 
CT> MG>  to defend it they obviously can not think for themselves.

CT>       Basic education seems to have gone well beyond the 
CT>  elementary school level in our society so that we find 
CT>  ourselves continuing to teach facts well into college.  

     It appears you are saying that teaching thinking should be 
put off until late college.  

CT>       Parents, family, communities have, by and large, 
CT>  abrogated their responsibility to the education of their 
CT>  children and have willingly given over the task to a 
CT>  bureaucracy beset by rules and forms, by outcomes and 
CT>  percentages, by cost effectiveness and social initiatives.  
CT>  Rather than questioning the scope of this intrusiveness, 
CT>  they have instead insisted on more and "better" control of 
CT>  education by the establishment.  But you can still find a 
CT>  number of parents willing and capable of guiding their 
CT>  children through the extant educational system to advantage 
CT>  by accepting it as a basis for thinking, not as an 
CT>  education in thinking.

     They are few, far between and even given the desire and 
motivation, they got the "education" from the same system.  These 
days it takes uncommon valor to rise above that education whereas 
rising above an education is what it should be all about.


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+++ r_950426 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1147)
To:      Frank Palmer                           24 Apr 95 22:33:12
Subject: FASCISM                                

FP>  FP>  AHD('73 paper)  "A system of government that exercises a
FP>  FP>  dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the
FP>  FP>  merging of state and business leadership, together with a
FP>  FP>  beligerent nationalism.

FP>  MG>  Mussolini, 1937  "A system of government that merges state 
FP>  MG>  and business combined with a belligerent nationalism."

FP>  MG>  As Mussolini as well as Hitler based their ideas upon Marx 
FP>  MG>  it is difficult to see why there is a need to throw in 
FP>  MG>  "extreme right" when it is most common to find that right 
FP>  MG>  intolerant of marxism.

FP>  Once again, Matt, you are using circular reasoning.  That 
FP>  Fascism = Marxism is shown by assuming that fascism = 
FP>  marxism, and then rejecting all the evidence to the 
FP>  contrary on the basis of that identity.

     You appear to be able to read more than I can into my words.  
As I have quoted completely why not underline both parts that are 
required to establish the circularity of the reasoning?  Can't do 
it?  Guess that means it is not there.  Where did you discover 
this circularity?

FP>  FP>     As for the USSR and China, both governments were
FP>  FP> ideologically committed  against nationalism and
FP>  FP> ethnocentrism.  They often failed to live up to their ideals;
FP>  FP> but it is silly to say that the ideals weren't there.

FP>  MG>  When there is a claim to ideals that are never exhibited 
FP>  MG>  one should doubt they were ever more than empty cant.

FP>  Most ideals are held by people that have trouble living up 
FP>  to them.

     Now you sound like a Christian explaining witch hunts.  
Sorry, the ideals of marxism, like those of christianity, are 
like having an ideal of moving around by levitation and blaming 
the failure to levitate on a lack of will.  

FP>  If you compare the rejection of chauvinism (original 
FP>  meaning) in both Chinese and Russian society under their 
FP>  respective CPs with what went before (and what went after, 
FP>  in the Russian case) you'd see how well they applied that 
FP>  particular ideal.  There was an Indian national on an early 
FP>  Politburo.  The USSR was led by a Ukrainian, an Armenian, 
FP>  and (most famously) a Georgian.
FP> 
FP>  Do you regard the break-down of the Communist control in 
FP>  the Soviet Union and in Yugoslavia timed right with the 
FP>  outbreak of ethnic warfare as coincidences?
FP> 
FP>  "Never exhibited" is your imagination.

     Perhaps I should have said they never exhibited the "ideal" 
of benefiting the workers.  That would be your best bet in 
claiming fascism can not be a form of marxism as fascism actually 
benefitted the workers and in fact improved the economy of the 
country something no marxist country has ever done.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1148)
To:      All                                    24 Apr 95 22:33:24
Subject: DAMN FOOL THING IN OK                  

                 Damn Fool Thing in the Balkans
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/24>

     OK, it didn't happen in the Balkans?  It happened in
Oklahoma City.  Here is another way the revolution can start.
     While every public and private person will say it was the
work of a small group of very strange people in the next breath
some of those "responsible" people in government have started
saying there will be raids on all suspect organizations.  One
interview with recent senior executives holds the government can
not do such things.  The morning of that same the Leon Panetta
says it is going to happen.
     I have no idea what the error rate on such raids might be
overall.  In this imperfect world there is a guaranteed error
rate both by those conducting the raid and those being raided.
These raids will be on armed people by armed people.  People on
both sides are going to die.
     After that there will be more justification than Waco to
bring the less extreme people into taking damn fool actions like
Oklahoma.  What these "stay calm" types are missing is that when
they characterize these people as being different rather than
being extreme.  If they are all certifiably insane then they in
fact different.
     Everyone knows they have a breaking point on everything that
irritates them, be it the neighbor's dog, a nagging spouse, or
the proverbial boss.  It is certainly correct to hold people this
extreme with so little provocation should do such a thing.  It is
foolish to believe that with double the provocation there are not
more than double the number people that would reach their
threshold.
     Why anyone would have this kind of threshold over Waco is
another question.  Most people interested in Waco are trying to
force something like an independent prosecutor to look into the
actions of the BATF and the FBI.  That there are some that would
choose this course of action is no more rational than people who
spike trees to injure loggers.  The only difference being an
injured child plays better on the evening news than an injured
logger, after all, the logger is damaging the environment.
     That there are these kind of people can no longer be denied.
Absent evidence of insanity they are simply the farthest out of
the spectrum of provocation -- whether we see it as provocation
or not, whether or not there is a better word for it than
provocation.  There is a next level inward from that extreme and
the number of potential "revenge takers" increases faster than
the number of things for which there is reason to take revenge.
     If the saner heads are right then the Leon Panettas are
wrong then we have nothing to worry about.  It the Panettas are
right then this is another way the revolution can start.
     The people who can be provoked by such actions are
completely convinced they are right just as much as those on the
side of the government.  On an interview aired on Sunday 4/23
Clinton when told that the militias were angry about Waco
exhibited what might be the first true emotion he has shown in
his entire public career.  He actually appeared angry.  But in
his anger he recited "facts" about Waco that members of militias
adamantly and with equal emotion hold are lies.
     It is not evil people we have to fear.  What we have to fear
is people who are acting with outstanding zeal for what they
believe to be right.  We have revolutions when two groups devoted
to what they know to be right come into conflict.
     Defusing this can not be accomplished by the government
saying the opposition must stop saying things about the
government.  This is not a time for the government to close
ranks.  It can afford at the least to throw the parts of the BATF
and the FBI involved in Waco to the wolves if necessary.  All it
has to do is appoint an independent prosecutor.
     With that simple action the entire subject is defused.
Granted it will continue as long as it takes for a special
prosecutor to collect information and what he reports will be
given more scrutiny than the investigation of Nixon and just
short of Warren Commission report but it will work.
     The future is a chaotic as the past.  What will happen does
not have to make sense in order to happen.  Even if these people
are tried and executed in record time, they can become tomorrow's
heroes and by the same people who condemn them today.  That is
the way history works.  That is the way people are.
     Consider the Bill Clinton appeared to show real and true
emotion.  That and only that could turn around his fortunes
overnight.  Letting anger show as a means of popular acclaim has
to be real and that would provoke the armed confrontations and we
are in the same "revolting" boat.
     On the other hand this concentration on Waco could result in
all the TV tabloids running prime time investigations of
everything the government did wrong and putting it in the worst
possible light.  That would lower the threshold of revenge for
those with that bent and we are again in that boat.
     We have been dealt a wildcard by this bombing.  If the wiser
heads will at least say "business as usual" it will change
nothing.  Of course no change by anyone is the least likely
event.  Even the Militia of Michigan has most likely started a
near witch hunt to find anyone in their organization that even
smells of being a bomber.  That will create less than savory
splinter groups and we are back on that boat.
     We are finally living in interesting times.  I hope we all
can live to enjoy them.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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+++ r_950428 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1144)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:46
Subject: BETTING QUESTION                       

     Is anyone willing to bet on which network will be the first 
to produce the mini-series on the Oklahoma bombing?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1145)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:46
Subject: DEATH PENALTY QUESTION                 

     Question:  It in the process of murder the perpetrator 
destroys the victim's social security card, would Clinton and 
Reno support the death penalty?  Or isn't a social security card 
federal property?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1146)
To:      Michael Pilon                          26 Apr 95 06:20:46
Subject: EDUCATION V THINKING                   

MP>  MG>  There is no rational person who can hold that the purpose 
MP>  MG>  of schooling is to teach a person to think.  Were that the 
MP>  MG>  case then at some point there would be an end to time when 
MP>  MG>  repetition is a cause for a lower grade than a new thought.  
MP>  MG>  Anyone out there ever had a class where repeating an old 
MP>  MG>  idea merited an F?  Of course not.  Repetition is an A.

MP>  Great post and so sadly true.  

     Thanks.  One thing I have had fun with is on one hand 
decrying the quality of public school education and watching the 
agreement and then when I disagree with them saying it must be 
due to their public school education.  They start defending it. 
It appears it is something that will not get attention until they 
stop thinking it was everyone else who didn't get a good 
education -- more of a school pride matter.

Have you ever read anything 
MP>  by Edward de Bono.  He is a British Physician and 
MP>  Psychologist who has made a career of writing and 
MP>  conducting seminars based on his concept of Latteral 
MP>  Thinking.  He too contends that children are not taught to 
MP>  think.  He says going from A to B to C is not thinking but 
MP>  is in fact a preformed process.  In point of fact 
MP>  regurgitation in a format.
MP> 
MP>      His institute offers courses in thinking and he has 
MP>  developed a curriculum that is used in some British 
MP>  schools.  His analogy is not going from A to B to C but 
MP>  going from A to blue to 7.  He has been a consultant to 
MP>  industry.

     Never heard of him.  Rather I have been thinking about my 
obviously extensive experience with my son and with other 
children I have known enough to talk to over the years.  What I 
can say is that where I find adults repeating the same logical 
fallacy on the same subject after it has been pointed out to them 
several times, I find I can point it out to a child once and 
never see it again.  And without the fallacy I see them thinking 
quite logically.

     I do not mean the complicated things you find in "brain 
teasers" and such but the basic things we use every day in 
ordering facts in a useful manner.  And I find they know when to 
ask when they find facts are missing.  I attribute adults who 
fill in missing facts with things that are not true and then 
refusing to question them to their having been given Santa Claus 
and Tooth Fairy answers as children instead of the missing facts.

MP>      When I was in the Forces, particularly in the 
MP>  headquarters, a brain storming session meant sitting around 
MP>  listening to what was on the General's mind.  I remember at 
MP>  one session I came up with an idea.  His voice just got 
MP>  louder and I spent the next hour doodling trying to stay 
MP>  awake.

     I had a similar exercise, it was the 20 items to be found if 
lost on the moon and you can only carry five, pick them.  I was 
not quite sure if I was right or wrong (wrong) at the time but I 
after listening to all the talking around the table on the 
others, I put on my most confident voice and attitude in support 
of that radio (no ionosphere).  Mine was accepted without 
discussion and that is what I said at the lessons learned when 
given the real list and why the others were wrong.  

     I would suggest I have a better lesson than that Generals 
"know what is right."  Impressions are more important than 
thinking.  Everything you hear, even in a vision from god, needs 
be subject to critical analysis.

MP>      Original thinking, not on your life ;) I also found 
MP>  that whne I did a post grad course most profs were happiest 
MP>  with regurgitation.  Sad but true, that's what I like about 
MP>  being my own boss.  

     I have noticed that attitude of dentists towards their 
patients.

I get to do my own original thinking and 
MP>  I do elegate to my staff because I worked for people who 
MP>  never did .

     It is a very poor manager who does not hire people who are 
better than he is.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1147)
To:      Ed Blount                              26 Apr 95 06:20:46
Subject: GINA GRANT                             

EB>  MG>  But the faculty protested in her favor.  The faculty also 
EB>  MG>  protested against George Will teaching there.  The faculty 
EB>  MG>  prefers a mother killer to a conservative.

EB> Hey, they gotta have _some_ standards!

     As opposed to George Will, the girl repented her evil ways.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1148)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:46
Subject: IMPROVED SECURITY                      

     Local Tampa TV news mention of "beefed up" security in 
Tallahassee.  The film background is a pan shot moving down from 
the top of the capital building and ending at ground level 
showing a Ryder truck parked in front.  No comment is made.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1149)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:46
Subject: INVSITGATE WHO?                        

     Let us keep in mind one thing above all.  The reason the FBI 
can not investigate groups that might be interested in bombing 
buildings.  

     Those restrictions were introduced to prevent the FBI from 
investigating groups that Billie Jeff Clinton was a member of.  

     That is fact.

     Investigate his organization, that is the end of it.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1150)
To:      All                                    26 Apr 95 06:20:46
Subject: KEEP THE INITIATIVE                    

                   Do not lose the initiative
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/25>

     Over thirty years ago, November 1963 to be exact, a mediocre
president was transformed.  Over a year before the election he
held only a one point lead in the polls over his most likely
opponent, Barry Goldwater.  He had divided the country with his
policies.
     This president was "believed to be" by "right wing radicals"
a womanizer and a drunk back when those were much worse than
today.  Remember this was back when a man who got a woman
pregnant had to marry her.  This was the man who was viewed as
having left men to die at the Bay of Pigs.  Literally 49% of the
voting populace was ready to vote against him in September 1963.
     Beyond that, in the man's time in office he accomplished
absolutely not legislative agenda other than a "tax cut for the
rich."  (By the way, it worked for the economy.)  And then he was
shot and killed by (insert your favorite conspiracy.)
     After he was buried he was a different man.  He did
everything but bring world peace and solve world hunger.  And
what caused this change?  The eulogies.
     According to the government approved conspiracy theory a
Cuban sympathizing Marxist killed Kennedy.  According to the
eulogies it was conservatism.  It was conservatives who called
Kennedy a spade.
     Over that weekend not only was Kennedy elevated from a
nothing to a saint but conservatives were changed from the
political opposition to accessories to murder.
     If you have not noticed it, the same thing is happening
right now.  Back then conservatives bought into the guilt
syndrome.  And worse, they kept quiet while the curse was being
laid upon them.  It happened once.  There is no reason to let it
happen again.
     Bill Clinton has moved to take political advantage of the
dead twice now.  First with the children and then with his
condemnation of people who are trying to change our present
government.
     There is no reason, in this moment of national mourning, to
let this son of a bitch get away with it.  The man is using the
dead to condemn imagined causes.  He has abandoned his own call
as late as Friday the 21st to refrain from laying blame on any
person or any group.  On the 24th he is laying blame.  Hypocrisy
is not the word for it.
     Physician, heal thyself.
     Remove the beam from thine own eye before the mote in thy
brother's.
     There is no guilt to go around.  The people who did it are
guilty, no one else.  Nothing said by anyone about the government
caused this bombing any more than early 1960s conservatives
caused a Cuban sympathizing marxist to kill Kennedy.
     Emotions are a battleground as certainly as Ohama Beach was
a battleground.  The way events are perceived is a battleground
as much as Guadalcanal.
     That a political opportunist like Bill Clinton is taking
political advantage of the deaths of children to condemn those
who disagree with our current government by saying explicitly
they caused the deaths in Oklahoma City is intolerable.
     We can not lose the advantage at this point.  We have the
mechanism of change and there is no reason to pull back from it.
If we slow now because some political opportunist attempts to
impose a guilt trip is stupid. 
     Why stupid?  There is exactly one person under arrest as of
this date because of this bombing.  It is still speculation that
Waco had anything to do with it.  It is speculation that the one
man is anything like the political right in the first place.  It
is speculation upon speculation as to what motivated him, much
less that he is sane in the first place.
     Given the 1963 example, conservatives swallowed a guilt trip
for "inciting" a Castro sympathizing marxist, the very antithesis
of the people who found fault with Kennedy for not overthrowing
Castro.  That is what my mother used to call, "can't win for
losing."
     But at this point we will not stop criticizing the
government.  We will not permit anyone to be silenced for
speaking against the government.
     And to show that we will continue to do it we will
counterattack without "understanding" and without "compassion"
anyone who wants to use the dead to silence us.  
     We will continue among ourselves to ridicule those who see
black helicopters and UN tanks among our ranks.  In that we will
be above the opposition which sees every increase in a program a
cut.  That there has been a lack of vocabulary skills among
Clinton and his fellow liberals is hardly in question.
     That the only term they have in their vocabulary for anyone
not in their party is "extreme right wing" does not mean the
rest of us are such dire need of a course to increase our
vocabulary.  They are applying their limited "us/them" vocabulary
to attempt to portray anyone but themselves as mad bombers.  Such
a limited mind is the best they can do at this point.
     They will do worse if unchecked.  How hard is it to say, "you
are taking advantage of deaths"?  That is what they are doing.
Say it. Clinton did it.  The media is doing it.  Continue
business as usual and tell them what they are doing and spit on
them.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1151)
To:      Grant Karpik                           26 Apr 95 06:20:46
Subject: MATT GIWER'S TROUBLES                  

GK> On Mar 21 at 17:54
GK>  Grant Karpik wrote to Matt Giwer
GK>  regarding: MATT GIWER'S TROUBLES


GK> .............................[SNIP]............................


GK> GK> BTW, I am still waiting for you to show me where I lied. I
GK> GK> expect  either your proof that I have lied about something
GK> GK> in this echo or  an apology.

     If you agree I have never denied the holocaust occurred 
perhaps you did not.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1152)
To:      Grant Karpik                           26 Apr 95 06:20:48
Subject: TOM PARDUE THE LIAR                    

GK> MG>      I invite Tom Pardue to respond to this challenge.

GK>  Tom Pardue doesn't play in here.  I don't give a damn what 
GK>  you and Pardue do with one another.  Why bother spamming us 
GK>  with this bit of non-information?

     As I remember the post, you have left out the "or anyone 
else" line.

GK>  BTW, before you go on trumpeting charges of folks not 
GK>  responding to your 'challenges' you should take care of 
GK>  your own.  I'm *still* waiting for you to provide proof to 
GK>  back up your accusation of my having lied in this echo or 
GK>  providing an apology to me.

     What you have repeating is without quotation of the subject 
upon which I made that claim.  As it is courtesy to summarize or 
quote, that makes it difficult to respond directly.


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+++ r_950429 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1155)
To:      Grant Karpik                           27 Apr 95 03:54:20
Subject: CRITIQUE OF 'BELL CURVE'               

GK> On Apr 17 at 19:02
GK>  Matt Giwer wrote to Grant Karpik
GK>  regarding: CRITIQUE OF 'BELL CURVE'

GK> GK> The Brecht Forum
GK> GK> 122 West 27 Street, 10 floor
GK> GK> New York, New York 10001-6281
GK> GK> (212) 242-4201
GK> GK> (212) 741-4563 (fax)
GK> GK> nyms1@nyxfer.blythe.org (e-mail)

GK> GK> *****

GK> GK> Genetic Determinism and _The Bell Curve_
GK> GK> by Eli C. Messinger, M.D.

GK> MG>      Nice paper.  It could have been even better if the
GK> MG> author  had read the book.

GK> Ok, point out exactly where he's wrong in his critique.

1. Genetic determinism is a belief or ideology that "claims that 
all human characteristics, including behavior, are determined by 
the function of genes" (Tobach and Rosoff, 1994).

a) This belief is at the heart of Herrnstein and Murray's _The 
        ~~~~~~
Bell Curve_ in their argument that group differences in cognitive 
capacity are innate and immutable. 

===

     The authors present the relevant studies of IQ that address 
heritability as a factor.  They address the results of those 
studies.  There is no belief at all.  It is simply a statement of 
what the results of the studies have shown.

     To date no critic has addressed those same studies and shown 
where the findings are different from the way they presented in 
the book.

===

b) The genetic determinist program is also expressed in the 
ideology of sociobiology. 

2. Genetic determinism is a reflection of a historically 
longer-lived ideological trend in the history of the biological 
sciences--biological reductionism. 

a) We do not have the time to go into the socio- historical roots 

b) I am not deriding all of the reductionist program nor saying 

c) However, reductionism yields a limited, blinkered and flat 

3. Reductionism is the claim that phenomena are best explained by 

a) The preferred method of the reductionist project is analysis 

===

     You will note nothing in these paragraphs addresses any of 
the studies used in the book.  Lengthy, nice diatribe but not on 
topic.

===
In _The Bell Curve_, the fundamental unit is "The I.Q." which is 
the quantum that determines all sorts of behaviors and social 
phenomena. 

===
     The authors present studies which show a strong correlation 
with the behaviors they list.  There is not the slightest 
suggestion that IQ determines behavior.

===
Thus, the possibility of getting a bachelor's degree 
(page 152), or the probability of being unemployed for a month or 
more (page 164), becomes a function of The I.Q. 
===
     And of course probability is not deterministic.  Why the 
unfortunate MD confuses the two terms in the same paragraph is 
unanswered.
===

The favored method of Murray and Herrnstein is the multiple 
regression analysis, which they use as a statistical method for 
isolating out the in-put which IQ, and IQ alone, is purported to 
make to these complex social phenomena. 

===

     This is the kind of statement that proves the critics have 
not read the book.  The authors present no (as in none, nada, 
zilch) numerical analysis of their own.  This is what is called a 
smoking gun.  He did not read the book. 

===

b) The search for the irreducible basic unit in psychometry 
produced the concept of g or general intelligence. The IQ test I 
am most familiar with from clinical work is the WISC, which has 

===
     The gentleman appears claiming ignorance of the subject in 
general that being why he introduces Gould, whose book is 
addressed starting on page 296 of the book.
===     

Stephen Jay Gould in his _Mismeasure of Man_ exposed g as but a 
mathematical construct, arbitrarily constructed, and having no 
substance or explanatory power in and of itself. But Herrnstein 
and Murray, and Jensen before them, continue to maintain that g 
is real and not a myth because such thinking is integral to the 
whole reductionist and idealist scientific strategy. 

===

     More evidence of not having read the book but not smoking as 
much.  The good doctor relies upon a paleontologist and 
conceptual evolutionist for an opinion on the value of the 
sociometric value of the g factor (note he does not present the 
argument, he simply claims it was made and although I did not 
read the book I doubt it could have been done in a popular work.)

     It is only used in one context in the "ethnic differences" 
chapter to explore a possible explanation of the differences in 
IQ test results being in the willingness to try.  Even then it is 
had no bearing upon the differences in IQ test results.  About 
three pages of discussion of which g is only a small part in a 45 
page chapter.

     As you can see, the gun is almost smoking in this case.  In 
this case it appears to be more of a deliberate intention to 
mislead as if he did read the book, then it is a willful 
misrepresentation of its contents.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1156)
To:      Grant Karpik                           27 Apr 95 03:54:22
Subject: CRITIQUE OF 'BELL CURV 01              

===

c) The reductionist project, by-and-large, sees these unit parts 
as having invariant relations to one another. 

===
     Again, off topic.
===

Psychometricians also have difficulty dealing with developmental 
processes. They postulate an unchanging innate intellectual 
capacity, and claim that beyond about four years of age it can be 
accurately measured. "IQ scores are stable, although not 
perfectly so, over much of a person's life" (page 23). But the 
remarkable thing about kids is the astonishing rate at which they 
grow intellectually, and the entirely new kinds of mental 
processes which they display as they grow older. The cognitive 
psychologist Piaget has a far better grasp of the developmental 
processes underlying intelligence.

===

     In this paragraph he appears to be deliberately confusing IQ 
scores, which is the only thing used in the book, with some 
undefined concept of intelligence, which has nothing to do with 
the book.

===

d) Steve Rose (_More than the Parts: Biology and Politics_) 
points out that reductionism asserts "that the individual is 

     A cute but irrelevant paragraph.

e) In keeping with the reductionist assertion of the ontological 
priority of the individual, Murray and Herrnstein do not deal 
with social forces. They are obviously concerned with social 
phenomena such as social stratification and with social problems 
such as criminality, but they treat them only as they do or do 
not reflect the measured IQ. 

===
     In other words, the authors stayed on topic.

===     

Their sociology is naive, primitive, schematic and 
common-sensical. 

===

     Pardon me if I point out it is not a book on sociology nor 
is and MD qualified to comment upon sociology unless there is 
something in his background not included in this article.

===

They paint an entirely atomized, monochromatic and static picture 
of human beings who lack any meaningful social relations. They do 
not deal with the diversity among peoples, conflicts between 
classes, family cohesion, or real social history. Not a single 
case study of a family or individual is offered in this thick 
volume. This lack of awareness of social forces and of the 
internal dynamics within families and individuals, this aloofness 
from the texture of real life in this society, I believe, makes 
the book so dreadfully boring to read.

===

     ABSOLUTELY!  The book must certainly be wrong because it is 
not on the subject of sociology!

     If the problem can be better addressed by a sociologist then 
let a sociologist write a book on the subject.  

===

4. Numbers and measurement are the be-all and end-all in the 
reductionist project. _The Bell Curve_ is a book filled with 
numbers, and it is a book about numbers. The bulk of the book 
consists of measurements of IQ and SAT scores which are 
correlated with a large number of measured variables of social 
success or failure (as they define success). I think there are 
several reasons for this fetishization of numbers:

===

     It is hard to imagine the good doctor's complaint here.  IQ 
is a number.  A bell curve is a mathematical distribution.  The 
entire subject is deeply involved in mathematics.

     It sounds like the good doctor would condemn a book on 
surgery because is has a fixation on the human body.

===

a) Nowadays science is equated with the handing of and display of 

b) The book conveys a false sense of objectivity and precision 

c) Numbers substitute for thought. The display of so many tables 
and graphs exerts a numbing effect.

d) The reader begins to think that the IQ itself exerts an 

e) When phenomena are approached clinically--in their 

f) The most important reason for the linear approach to the 

===

     In these paragraphs the doctors is attacking ALL forms of 
sociometrics.  That may be his personal hard-on but it is not in 
the least relevant to the book.

===

There are two obvious flaws in Herrnstein and Murray's handling 
of their numerous numbers. First, their regression coefficient 
analyses yield only correlations, but they lapse into speaking as 
if they have discovered causative relations. Second, as Gould 
points out in his review in _The New Yorker_ magazine, the 
correlation coefficients they obtain are pitifully low.

===

     As above, this gun is smoking.

===

5. The categories selected for examination, especially in the 
reductionism of the sociobiological variety, reflect prevailing 
social norms and thus, indirectly, reinforce them. Murray and 
Herrnstein, for example, examine the problem of children born out 
**
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1157)
To:      All                                    27 Apr 95 03:54:22
Subject: THE BATTLEGROUND                       

 

                        The Battleground
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <4/26>

     I find it strange that an issue buried in the public media
for nearly two years is now front and center.  For better or
worse Waco is something that now going to be discussed.  And the
liberals are going to follow the lead of Clinton in attempting to
take political advantage of it.
     What they want to do is to someone other than the bombers
for Waco.  They are choosing to blame people who are keeping Waco
alive in the public mind.  What they will not admit is that Waco
would not be in the public mind had it not been for the
deliberate decision of Attorney General Janet Reno.
     It is not obvious to the casual observer that the success of
the war of independence for Texas was the responsibility of those
who remembered the Alamo.  It is obvious that General Santa Ana
had a hand in it some place.
     If Waco is to be called the cause of the bombing then is it
those who remember Waco or those who did Waco that are the cause?
If there is to be blame then who is to blame?  Those who point
out what prosecution witnesses have said happened while under
oath or those who authorized those people do what they did?
     This is a very clear question on a very clear issue.  This
admits many different viewpoints.  It does not admit "the
president said it so it must be true" as a rational argument.  Do
not forget, this is the man who started trying to take political
advantages of what will be the deaths of over two hundred people.
Most of the dead were still in the rubble when he started it.
     The primary defense of Clinton will be that he did not name
any names.  Fine.  Who and what was he talking about?  He was
either making it up out of whole cloth or he names and examples.
     When he is willing to say exactly who he meant and what he
is talking about then we have some person and some statement to
discuss.  Otherwise, he was deliberately stirring up political
problems with an eye towards his own advantage.
     This is now the defined battleground.  EVERY unnamed person
who says ANY undefined thing against the government is now being
named as motivating the explosion.  If anyone want to make that
accusation, it was caused by Janet Reno first.  Period.  End of
discussion.
     If Clinton will not name the people and the statements then
no fool liberal is going to be allowed to fill in his pet peeve
and pretend that is what the President meant.  And that is what
they are doing.
     They can try to play their blame game and their shame game
all they want.  It will not hold water.  It is not a tolerable
position.
     Bill Clinton!  Liberals!  Fuck off!

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1277)
To:      Loralie Freeman                        28 Apr 95 02:35:10
Subject: EVOLUTION VS CREATION                  

LF> MG>     Are you telling me you seriously believe this crap?

LF>  It's not a case of believing or not believing.  But I do 
LF>  believe they were wiser than we think they were.  They were 
LF>  setting the framework for interactions between people 
LF>  within society.

     Lets try it this way.  The only thing that separates the 
people talked about in the OT from anyone else around at the time 
is the presumption the events in the bible actually happened.  

     It is highly unlikely they ever existed.  Who ever did exist 
was doing nothing different from anyone else at the time.  There 
was no Adam and Eve, period.  They were not close to the 
beginning of anything.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1278)
To:      Mark David                             28 Apr 95 02:35:10
Subject: HOW TO DEMONIZE                        

MD> Have you seen the bullshit being banied about on CNN?

MD> Apparently only children died in the blast.

     That is part of scaring the shit out of the kids.

MD>  MG>  arrested person being transferred to federal custody was 
MD>  MG>  certain to point out the crowd shouted "baby killer."  
MD>  MG>  Given most of this news report was false there is no reason 
MD>  MG>  to expect this report had any truth to it.

MD>  This really fumes me.
MD> 
MD>  Let's consider the known evidence concerning Timothy 
MD>  McViegh:
MD> 
MD>  Arrested for driving without liscense plates, carrying a 
MD>  concealed weapon, owning explosive material, and having 
MD>  talked with certain millitia members.
MD> 
MD>  That is assuming, of course, the media screw-up idiots are 
MD>  not beliving in their own fantasies, as was the case with 
MD>  the Middle Eastern man held in the airport.
MD> 
MD>  Thus the state feels it has sufficient evidence to arrest 
MD>  him.

     Come to think of it, I don't think I have heard "alleged 
bomber" once.  Guess he is guilty.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1279)
To:      Frank Palmer                           28 Apr 95 02:35:10
Subject: NAZI ECONOMICS                         

FP> Matt:

FP>     Sparked by some of your claims, i have been reading what
FP> the Nazis did in the economic realm when they came to power.

FP> My source is:
FP> HALM, George N.
FP> _Economic Systems, A Comparative Analysis_
FP> 1960 (revised edition) Holt, Rinehart, & Winston;  NYC
FP> pp 253-266.

FP>     First, the Nazis had a fairly radical Party Platform.
FP> They did nothing to implement it, although their majority in
FP> the Reichstag justified implementing their platform to the
FP> European mind.  The platform called for the abolition of
FP> unearned income and promised that "the bondage of interest
FP> slavery" would be broken.

     Quite interesting, thanks for the effort.  Also note, you 
are the first person, agree or disagree, who has looked into the 
subject.  Careful, you are going to stand out.


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