The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1995/giwer_debate_9502


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2681)
To:      All                                    18 Jan 95 20:11:00
Subject: A BILL OF GOODS                        

                         A Bill of Goods
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <1/18>

     I presume the idea of being sold a bill of goods as a scam
or a con came from being sold the bill rather than the goods.
Some thirty years ago America was sold a bill but not the goods.
That bill was the War on Poverty.
     Clearly the War on Poverty was proclaimed by both Lyndon
Johnson and Hubert Humphrey to be a plan to end poverty in
America.  We were sold the bill but not the goods.  We were
promised program to end poverty in America.  The government never
delivered the goods nor is there any evidence there was ever any
intention to do so.
     Here we have a plain case of government fraud upon the
people.  After we bought the promise we were delivered massive
wealth transfers that had nothing to do with eliminating poverty.
There were a few little programs here and there that looked like
they were to train people to get jobs but at best they were a way
to spend more money.  They generally paid people more money who
already receiving the welfare largesse to attend training
courses.  In the end they were nothing more than additional
wealth transfer programs.
     Now as we were sold the bill rather than to goods is it not
about time we ended this cynical game.  The promise of ending
poverty was immediately discarded by those who had supported it
as the end of poverty.  It is obvious they knew their support was
a lie at the time of that support.
     Now there are some to say to end the welfare system is to
renege on our promise to the poor.  But we, as a country, did not
promise the poor support.  We promised them a way to get out of
poverty.  We have failed to deliver on that promise.
     That we should end something that is not what we promised is
only reasonable.  And it is not reasonable anyone on this current
welfare system should be upset something they were never promised
is terminated.  They should rather be upset that they are still
in poverty after the promise they would be off of it.
     There are signs they are.  They were promised and expected
the Great Society would get them out of poverty but the system
they were given makes it even harder to get out of poverty.
Those paying the bill agree with them.  On top of that many of
them see joining the poverty class as the only way to get needed
health care.
     Far from being the end of poverty in America it is a system
that none appear to want save those who do not want to work and
those who have found it a comforting political position.  Those
who find it comforting claim it is heartless to leave these
"poor" to starve.  Let us examine that position.
     The United States has never been a country when there were
people starving when it was possible to help.  Before the program
to end poverty began there was no one starving.  There were
certainly some homeless people but their number did not increase
or decrease that anyone can determine although they congregate in
public areas where they police were once free to move them on.
     As they has been no change in the percentage of poverty
level people, no change in hunger, no change in housing because
these programs exist, there is no reason to think that ending
these programs will make any difference either.  There is no
rational case to be made that termination will make any
difference than initiation save that the system has created a
dependent class.
     As that is the final argument there is no rational reason to
hold people as a dependent class to the government.  That is
treating people as hardly more than animals.  In the parks we do
not feed the animals as they will become dependent upon the easy
food.  We not only do not do it we make it illegal.  But doing
the same thing to people is somehow considered a morally good
thing by the politically persuaded.
     Deliberately continuing a system that has as its purpose,
deliberate or accidental, continuing a dependence of one group
upon another is not a rational nor a moral position.
     We have a system that was sold on fraud.  The promise was
never implemented.  Dependence was implemented.  Eliminating a
system like this can only be a moral good.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2682)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             19 Jan 95 02:10:00
Subject: END TIMES                              

NZ> NZ>  Matt, why do you *ALWAYS* twist scripture, put words into
NZ> NZ>  my mouth, and then use it to express your negativity and
NZ> NZ>  hatred for God and the Bible?

NZ> MG>        You are the one who wanted a person to prosper so it would
NZ> MG>   be harder for him to get into heaven.  If you really cared about
NZ> MG>   a person AND believed the words of your own bible then you would
NZ> MG>   wish that person poverty and disease and suffering so that they
NZ> MG>   might lay up treasures in heaven.

NZ> Matt, please show me one single scripture where it states this...

     It is easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a 
needle ...

NZ> NZ>  Jesus was addressing the "attitude of greed"; not the money
NZ> NZ>  itself...
NZ> NZ>
NZ> NZ>  Matt, God knows that we need money to exsist in this world,
NZ> NZ>  so why would you think that God "hates" riches, when all
NZ> NZ>  the books contained in the Bible tell you how He wants you
NZ> NZ>  to prosper?

NZ> MG>        "Take that thou hast and give to the poor."

NZ> MG>        Tell him, not me.

NZ>  Matt, I already showed you that Jesus was telling this 
NZ>  person to sell what he had on his person at the time, and 
NZ>  not everything the man owned...

     "Sell that thou hast and give to the poor ..."

     "Hast" dose not not mean "hast on you."

NZ>  ...and besides, even if this scripture WAS telling the man 
NZ>  to sell everything he owned; are you going to lean on ONE 
NZ>  scripture that said to give up everything, where hundreds 
NZ>  of others tell us to prosper?

     If every word is true and infallible then I can lean on a 
single letter.  But if you claim the right to pick and choose 
then I claim an equal right


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2683)
To:      Wayne Jones                            19 Jan 95 02:13:00
Subject: RESPONSIBLE GUNNERS                    

WJ>  WJ>  MG>  Confession is good for the soul.  As I have posted a 
WJ>  WJ>  MG>  linguistic analysis by one of the foremost authorities on 
WJ>  WJ>  MG>  grammar on the subject of the 2nd amendment and it agrees 
WJ>  WJ>  MG>  with the plain reading of it, I would suggest you have 
WJ>  WJ>  MG>  indeed sinned and were in need of confession.

WJ>  WJ>          I see this grammar experts opinion far outwieghs
WJ>  WJ>          the opinions of persons everywhere.  Glad you can
WJ>  WJ>          be so comfortable with one persons explanation.

WJ>  MG>  Are you holding Canadian English differs from American 
WJ>  MG>  English in grammar?  Are you holding that your opinion is 
WJ>  MG>  greater that such an analysis?

WJ>          No I am not, I am holding that one experts opinion 
WJ>          is no more valid than another's, or than mine for 
WJ>          that matter.  

     Very good.  Now post an equivalent grammatical analysis 
holding a dependent clause has an independent meaning.  Or post 
whatever grammatical analysis you wish.  Just post one, even your 
own.  Just post an analysis, not an opinion.  Convince me.

A linguistic expert is also not an 
WJ>          expert of the law, you take into account far more 
WJ>          than linguistic interpretation, when you try to 
WJ>          determine the meaning of a law.  

     Post the details of the alternate interpretation NOT 
unsupported opinion.

I am also saying 
WJ>          that because one expert says it is so, not all 
WJ>          experts will say the same.  This is fine when you 
WJ>          are dealing with a mathmatical constant, but far 
WJ>          from clear when you are dealing with words.  Many 
WJ>          such examples are available on this echo, I'm sure 
WJ>          you have seen people misunderstand the meaning or 
WJ>          intent of others words.  Certainly you are an 
WJ>          expert in this field.

     So post the analysis not the opinion and make your case 
rather than simply running off at the fingertips about it.

WJ>  MG> Just what is it your are trying to spit out?

WJ>          I have already spit it out.  See above.  If you 
WJ>          wish to debate with me in the future, how about 
WJ>          trying not to be so codescending, I might take you 
WJ>          more seriously.

     Good.  POST THE ANALYSIS.

     As you can not, I have no idea what you think you are 
debating.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lucca Brazzi for IRS Commissioner.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2684)
To:      All                                    19 Jan 95 21:42:00
Subject: PERCEPTION & REALITY                   

                     Perception and Reality
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <1/16>

     What is an organized nervous system and why did it take most
of the most known history of life on earth to get started?  To
start we have to recognize that the reality we perceive is
chaotic in the sense of chaos theory.  No matter how much we know
about it we can never know enough to predict anything.
     This was obvious when quantum theory was discovered.  The
universe is unordered and chaotic.  It can not suddenly turn
ordered at the macro level we perceive it.  So why do we perceive
it as ordered?  We do not.  We put a name to difference but our
nervous system had evolved with the ability to make survivable
sense out of this nonsense we perceive.
     What we have and share with all the lower types is a
survivable congruence of the chaotic functioning of our nervous
system with the chaotic nature of the world around us.
     Chaos means in fact that if we were to know everything we
could not, can not not, predict the future.  We imagine we are in
a determinisitic world yet in the most trivial sense if that were
our world we would all win the lottery.  Were this a
deterministic worls the most intelligent among us could best
predict the future.  There is no evidence anyone can predict the
future.
     The separation of the brightest from the rest is the ability
to deal with whatever comes along to their best advantage.  It
matters not at this point whether you agree with the external
world being chaotic, it matters that for all practical purposes
it is chaotic.
     This does not mean I expect to find a white rabbit in my
yard.  This means the best weather service that American dollars
can buy can tell me tomorrow's weather any better than I can tell
what personal and business matters tomorrow will bring.
     What this means is not that tomorrow will be completely
different but rather the degree of divergence of tomorrow from
today is unpredicable.  Consider that we can make sense after the
fact of tomorrow only after it occurs is part of the nervous
system this world has evolved.  We can adapt to anything in this
world and find an explanation for it.  
     But finding an explantion is again something we can only do
after the fact.  Our ability is to meld with the chaos, to learn
from its local patterns and project them to the local future as
best we can but that is the value of intelligence.  When we
measure intelligence we meaure a snapshot in time of the ability
to deal with chaos.
     The measure are those of short dealings with chaos.  We do
not make sense of chaos; we find a method of surviving within it.
The rules of logic are indeed arbitrary but they work in letting
us survive within the chaos.
     We also are chaos.
     Perhaps reason and our view of the world should be viewed as
complementary chaos,
     This is not intended to denigrate a thing of the world or
the human spirit (spirit being perhaps the best term) but rather
to point out that what we consider an ordered world and not
understanding it our fault is a in fact a natural consequence of
our world and in fact is our world.
     To look backward upon history and impose order is a foolsh
as looking forward to predict the future.  The study of history
is as foolish as fortune telling.  There is no more order to
history, as it is the result of choas, as the future is
predictable.



                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * To much of a good thing is a gift from the gods.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2685)
To:      Tom Rooney                             20 Jan 95 18:38:00
Subject: RAPE                                   

TR>  I have a question.  If rape has nothing to do with sex, but 
TR>  only expresses dominance and a desire to humiliate the 
TR>  victim, how does the rapist get an erection in order to do 
TR>  the raping?  Men do no have erections when dominating or 
TR>  humiliating someone.  Any answers??

     A marital aid?

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * A contribution from each according to his ability. Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2686)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             20 Jan 95 18:42:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE                    

NZ>  No Linda, Satan "causes" deception - therefore, "he" is the 
NZ>  "deceiver"...

     Why would you spread this lie?  Did not Jesus who is the 
Christ teach us to pray, "Our Father ... lead us not into 
temptation ..."?

     Satan, Power Be Until Him, is not a deceiver.  He is one of 
the few honest creatures even as portrayed in the Bible.  
Christians are forever telling false stories about him.

NZ>  But since people who reject God will be "open" to Satan's 
NZ>  attacks, God will send that "attack" or "delusion" upon 
NZ>  them.

     Satan would harm no one.  Did he not tell Eve the truth?  
That she would not die the day she ate the fruit?  Did this not 
give them knowledge and make them like the gods of Genesis?

NZ>  If you TRUELY wish to go into detail, let me know; as I'm 
NZ>  not going cite scriptural proof - so you can just tell me 
NZ>  that I'm "technobabbling"...

     I have presented but two examples of you making a false 
accusation regarding Satan, PBUH.  Would you like to deal with 
them first?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2687)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             20 Jan 95 18:56:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE                    

NZ> AH>   Since he did not bring world peace, he can't be the Messiah.

NZ> Bob, Jesus never came to bring "world peace"...

NZ>  ...He came to "seperate" the "sheep" (believers) from 
NZ>  "goats" (non-believers).

     Actually he really was a strong believer in animal 
segregation.  Why do you think he was wandering all over the 
countryside?  He was looking for sinful sheep and goat mixing.

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2688)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             20 Jan 95 18:59:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE                    

On 01/12/95 NIKI ZANZO to JIM STERLING on UFO'S AND THE BIBLE


NZ>  But the Bible is NOT religion; it is the INFALLIBLE Word of 
NZ>  God; 

     Then of course you will accept the words of the prayer as 
given by JC?  If not, why not?

NZ>  an accurate acount of history; 

     Then why is there no evidence of any Hebrew ever having been 
in Egypt?

NZ>  the basis of law and order; 

     Do you really think people could not figure out there is 
something wrong with murder without help?

the "physician's desk reference guide" when medical 
NZ>  science is "duped"; 

     Had any good miracles lately?

the instruction manual for all human 
NZ>  kind; and the prophecy of things that are happening right 
NZ>  now, and WILL come upon this planet.

     All of it has already happened.     

NZ>  Now, as long as you cannot "disprove" any of that, I will 
NZ>  continue to use the Bible as my "logical support".

     How can one disprove that for which there is no evidence?

===

     I would like to invite you to the Holysmoke Echo.  There are 
a great many sinners there in need of your enlightenment and 
wisdom.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "OK punks, do you feel lucky?" -- Clint

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2689)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             20 Jan 95 19:20:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE   1/2              

NZ>  But if one does research on a "scientific" level, 

     Science means that it must work not matter who does the 
testing and that failure can not be blamed upon the person doing 
the testing.

using ALL 
NZ>  the Books of the Bible to reference each other, NOT just 
NZ>  one verse for what it says, it becomes very clear what God 
NZ>  was saying...
NZ> 
NZ>  God intended for us to use our heads a little...
NZ> 
NZ>  That's why you will find scriptures that reference "here is 
NZ>  wisdom" and "knowledge" - God wants us to put His Word to 
NZ>  the test.

     Which word would you care to test?     

NZ>  No other Holy Book will tell you to do that...
NZ> 
NZ>  Take the Word and compare it to today's events, and you'll 
NZ>  see that there's nothing left to "interpretate".

     UFOs?  Alien abductions?  Roswell is mentioned in the Bible?  
Is the one Elijah Mohammed flies around in mentioned?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2690)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             20 Jan 95 19:32:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE   2/2              

NZ>  What qualifications does one need to research, calculate, 
NZ>  match texts with the originals, or compare a scripture 
NZ>  found in different Books of the Bible; but all in the same 
NZ>  context?

     A working knowledge of Hebrew, Sanskrit and Greek would be a 
minimal start.  



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2691)
To:      Bill Matherly                          20 Jan 95 19:34:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE                    

BM>  -=> Quoting Krys Mathewson to Niki Zanzo <=-


BM>  KM> How do you KNOW that Jesus was the messiah?


BM>  Because it was written...

     No is isn't.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2697)
To:      Andy Von Busse                         27 Jan 95 21:32:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUN CONFISCATION              

AB> Quoting MATT GIWER to ALL concerning CANADIAN GUN CONFISCATION:

AB>  Thanks from all Canadian Gun Owners for this posting, Matt.  
AB>  I met with Ernie in Regina this last weekend, (yes, there 
AB>  really is a gun lobby in Canada) 

     Nonsense.  You folks all love your gun laws just the way 
they are.

AB>  Tell them that it is not only the Wall Street Journal that 
AB>  is starting to think of us as a Third World Country.  

     If it were not for the US border Canada would be a full 
fledged third world nation.  It is that easy drive across the 
border between factories that makes the present Canadian economy 
possible.  I find it amazing any Canadian thinks any bit of that 
trade can be minimized.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * ClintonThink appears to be incurable.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2698)
To:      Eldridge Currie                        27 Jan 95 22:17:00
Subject: IDAHO SHOULD PROSECUTE                 

EC> MG>       Pardon one more digression into history.  Whatever 
EC> MG>  failings you may ascribe to J.  Edgar Hoover, he took over a 
EC> MG>  corrupt organization that was despised by the American 
EC> MG>  public and changed it into one that became one of the most 
EC> MG>  respected in the nation...

EC>  Hoover was an evil, glory-seeking pig who was under the 
EC>  thumb of the Mafia for most of his long corrupt 
EC>  administration.  Haven't you noticed all the big Mafia busts 
EC>  since the bastard died? Most of the "Bosses" are old 
EC>  men....  Hoover's age, if the prick were alive.

     Which has nothing whatsoever to do with the change in the 
image of the FBI that he accomplished.

EC> MG>   See how quickly it has fallen back into a gang of thugs 
EC> MG>  and hooligans again.  God have mercy upon the FBI.

EC>  It always was that, with exceptions.

     You need to learn something about it some day.

EC>  You want something REALLY evil? Try the CIA.  You even 
EC>  elected its past director, George Bush (one of America's 
EC>  most evil and corrupt men) President of your great 
EC>  republic.

     Let me guess.  You are an aging, pot smoking flower child.

EC> MG>  * RM 1.3 01261 * Never, ever trust a draft dodger.

EC>  You certainally bought into government propaganda.  The 
EC>  draft was a form of slavery by lottery.  The above tagline 
EC>  is silly and incorrect.

     Whatever you may call the draft that is a correct 
description of Clinton and his actions.

EC>  I, personally, wouldn't trust someone who says "Let's kick 
EC>  but".

     You forgot the ellipsis.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Read my lips, Clinton.  Think first, then talk.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2699)
To:      Eldridge Currie                        27 Jan 95 22:27:00
Subject: URGENT! LEAD BULLET BAN                

EC> MG> Clinton Regs. Could Ban Lead Bullets-- Response needed to
EC> MG> your  Congressman & EPA

EC>  The Canadian government is following the trend in the US 
EC>  (as usual) and is about to debate the impostition of even 
EC>  tighter gun control on a nation that already has one of the 
EC>  tightest.

     And so many other Canadians keep claiming they have so 
little crime in the first place that the gun crime is nothing 
compared to the US.  Yet the government wants more.  There is no 
question Canadians are all set to run amuck real soon now.

EC>  I wonder if they (both governments) know something we don't 
EC>  know, such as disarming the people before the coming revolt 
EC>  against unequal distribution of wealth, as the middle 
EC>  class, in both countries, is diappearing by the thousands 
EC>  every single day?

     The only hope of a despot it to disarm the people.  
Machiavelli recognized that as the distinction between good 
rulers and despots.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Chlldren of Waco, I feel your PAIN. -- Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2707)
To:      All                                    28 Jan 95 04:31:00
Subject: 4 PLAYER 2B NAMED LATER                

 ##########  Original From: RICHARD DONOVAN
 # STOLEN #             To: ALL
 #  STUFF #    Date/Number: 01/22/95 - 0000218
 ##########             On: DOC'S - 0310 - Legal_Law
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                Microsoft Clarifies Trademark Policies

REDMOND, Washington--January 4, 1995--In response to customer inquiries,

Microsoft today clarified the naming policy for Bob(tm), its new
software product designed for computer beginners.  Contrary to rumors,
Microsoft will not demand that all persons formerly named "Bob"
immediately select new first names.

    "I don't know where these rumors come from," commented Steve Balmer,
Microsoft Executive Vice President for Worldwide Sales and Support.
"It's ridiculous to think Microsoft would force people outside the
computer industry to change their names.  We won't, and our licensing
policies for people within the industry will be so reasonable that the
Justice Department could never question them."

    Balmer said employees of other computer companies will be given the
opportunity to select new names, and will also be offered a licensing
option allowing them to continue using their former names at very low
cost.

    The new licensing program, called Microsoft TrueName(tm), offers
persons who want to continue being known by the name Bob the option of
doing so, with the payment of a small monthly licensing fee and upon
signing a release form promising never to use OpenDoc.  As an added
bonus, Bob name licensees will also be authorized to display the Windows
95 logo on their bodies.

    Persons choosing not to license the Bob name will be given a 60-day
grace period during which they can select another related name.  "We're
being very lenient in our enforcement of the Bob trademark," said Bill
Newkom, Microsoft's Senior Vice President of Law and Corporate Affairs.
"People are still free to call themselves Robert, Robby, or even Rob.
Bobby however is derivative of Microsoft's trademark and obviously can't
be allowed."

    Microsoft also announced today that Bob(tm) Harbold, its Executive
Vice President and Chief Operating Officer, has become the first
Microsoft TrueName licensee and will have the Windows 95 logo tattooed
to his forehead.
                              <<<<>>>>

Who would have ever thought to thank Microsoft for anything?

... The sword of justice has no scabbard - Joseph de Maistre
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * The Right of the Individual to be an Individual.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2720)
To:      Jack Wilder                            28 Jan 95 19:59:00
Subject: 70% FAVOUR GUN CONTRO                  

JW>  MG> . . .The kind of reasoning you are demonstrating is what
JW>  MG> results in low scores on IQ tests.

JW>         Matt is a character I agree, and frustrating also, but
JW>   the contention was (I believe) that IQ is NOT related to success,
JW>   or intelligence per se.  If this was the contention (fidonet is
JW>   sporadic lately) then the above would not be an insult!

     You well make the point that saying someone who contends 
there is no connection between IQ score and intelligence can not 
be insulted by saying they have a low IQ as they hold it has 
nothing to with intelligence.  

     That a moderator would consider it an insult would be siding 
with me in the discussion.  I am certain he would not be doing 
that.

JW>         Hope you had a good vacation.

JW>         I hope that you are aware that if you are ever in OKC
JW>   you have an open invitation.  I'm in the book.

     And his feed went to hell while away.  He will never know 
what was said while he was gone.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Reich!  Clinton's partner in Dwarf Tossing.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2721)
To:      Matt Hutchinson                        28 Jan 95 20:06:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE                    

MH>  BS>  If your god is omnipotent, why then does he not "smite" the 
MH>  BS>  devil?

MH>  If the devil were to cease to exist, what source, then, 
MH>  would Christians have to say evil deeds are spawned from?  
MH>  Without good, there can be no evil.  By the same token, 
MH>  without evil, there can be no good.  One cannot exist 
MH>  without the other, because you need one to compare the 
MH>  other to.

     Thus it impossible for said god to have existed for all time 
with said devil also having existed and thus said devil was not 
created by said god.  QED     


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Clinton's Great Grandpappy, Col. Jubilation T. Cornpone

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2722)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             28 Jan 95 20:13:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE                    

NZ> He said that the non-believers have no business judging ANYONE...

NZ> ...but He told the believers to make "righteous judgement"...

NZ> ...and yes, He DID tell the believers not to judge for the wrong
NZ> reasons:

NZ>  "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous 
NZ>  judgment."

NZ>                                                        John 7:24

     Do as I say, not as I do as many well known money changers 
in Jerusalem could have told you.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Tax Flamers!  Support the BTU tax!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2723)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             28 Jan 95 20:15:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE                    

NZ> KS>    You *did* go into detail, Niki, quoting Scripture that 
NZ> KS>    said *God*, not Satan, would cause deception.

NZ>  No Kate, I *never* said or posted Scripture that said God 
NZ>  would *cause* a deception...
NZ> 
NZ>  I've said that Satan *caused* the deception, the people 
NZ>  brought that deception upon themselves, and God "sent" it.
NZ> 
NZ>  Period.

     Please.  You Christians so malign Satan, Power Be Unto Him.
     
     He has deceived no one.  Did he not tell the truth to Eve so 
the human race the knowledge of good and evil and be like the 
gods?

     Satan, PBUH, makes contracts and delivers upon them.  He 
does not blame the human for the failure of the contract.  Satan, 
PBUH, seeks knowledge as do all men.  For this he is maligned by 
Christians.  It is not honest for Christians to do this.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Captain Blythe declares war on Serbia.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2726)
To:      Elan Dassani                           28 Jan 95 23:22:00
Subject: AIDS IMMIGRATION BAN BAD               

ED>  I'll just focus on the main point of my argument.  Every 
ED>  year the US spends over 1.2 Billion dollars on the testing 
ED>  of Aids from each immigrant.  That puts it at..Oh...about 2 
ED>  million dollars per person that we exclude every year.  

     Quoting would help.  What I remember posting it pointing out 
this number is nonsense.  The cost of the test is around $10 with 
even $20 for all the fees around it that is 60 million people a 
year.  We do not test 60 million people a year.  

     Just what is it you are referring to?

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * If all else fails, say Limbaugh.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2727)
To:      Chris Baugh                            28 Jan 95 23:28:00
Subject: CRIME                                  

CB>  MG>  Under our form of government the supreme court is not 
CB>  MG>  supreme either.  Yet everyone bows down to it as though it 
CB>  MG>  were.

CB>  I can't find, in my copy of the Constitution, the passage 
CB>  about a court which is superior to the Supreme Court.

CB>  Perhaps mine is missing a page which you could provide to 
CB>  support your point.

     I will be happy to do so.  Three separate but equal branches 
of government.  In context of what I was saying said court has no 
authority higher than any other branch of government.  It is 
treated as though it were the supreme arbiter of the actions of 
the other two branches.  

     Consider history.  The only way FDR could get his New Deal 
passed was to pack the SC rather than get Congress to take the 
matter out of the jurisdiction of the SC.  Why did the 
organization have to subverted rather than simply ruled out of 
bounds?  
     
     That is the kind of slavering belief in its supremacy I am 
talking about.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Never, ever trust a draft dodger.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2728)
To:      Pete Bucy                              28 Jan 95 23:41:00
Subject: IQ CONSISTENCY                         

PB> MG>      Recently there was an execution by lethal injection in 
PB> MG> Texas.  The usual suspects against the death penalty 
PB> MG> immediately pointed out this man had a low IQ.  
PB> MG> Interestingly they are the same suspects who are decrying 
PB> MG> The Bell Curve.

PB>   Matt, my friend, there is no honesty in the liberal 
PB>  agenda.  Their truth is whatever promotes their programs and 
PB>  increases your taxes.  They are the truth of Lenin, Stalin, 
PB>  and Chairman Mao.

     I am awaiting the first response which will be a twist upon 
the facts showing that enough of a denial is not too much of a 
denial and that IQ really matters sometimes but not at other 
times, usually, maybe.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * The Not ready for Prime Time Adminstration.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2729)
To:      Niki Zanzo                             28 Jan 95 23:43:00
Subject: MLK'S DREAM SPEECH     02              

NZ> MG>   NZ>  I find this coming from an atheist who thinks that all the
NZ> MG>   NZ>  crime in the world is due to the ignorant races, quite
NZ> MG>   NZ>  ludicrous...

NZ> MG>        Only you are responsible for the foolishness of your
NZ> MG>   opinions.

NZ> ...and only you are responsible for the foolishness of your views...

     Of course I am.  I accept full responsibility for them.  I 
have data to support my positions.  You have only what people 
tell you about the bible.  And you do not even know their names.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Bill and Al's Bogus Adventure begins!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2730)
To:      Travis Beard                           28 Jan 95 23:44:00
Subject: REAGAN IS DYING                        

TB>  TB>   I understand Reagan is fading fast.  He has Alzheimer's 
TB>  TB>   disease.
TB>  TB> 
TB>  TB>   Fetal tissue research was proposed that would help 
TB>  TB>   sufferers of this disease.
TB>  TB> 
TB>  TB>   Ronald Reagan banned research using fetal tissue during 
TB>  TB>   his administration.

TB>  MG> That was for Parkinson's youngster.  Get your story straight
TB>  MG> for once.

TB> Fetal tissue research was also capable of being used to treat
TB> Alzheimer's, but you knew that.

     I do know, and you are claiming bullshit.  What you say is 
not true.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Chlldren of Waco, I feel your PAIN. -- Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2731)
To:      Travis Beard                           28 Jan 95 23:45:00
Subject: REAGAN IS DYING                        

TB>  RE>  TB> I understand Reagan is fading fast. He has Alzheimer's disease.

TB>  RE>  TB> Fetal tissue research was proposed that would help sufferers of
TB> this
TB>  RE>  TB> disease.

TB>  RE>  TB> Ronald Reagan banned research using fetal tissue during his
TB>  RE>  TB> administration.

TB>  RE> What goes around, comes around.

TB>  MG> Wrong disease.

TB>  You must give the ENTIRE story, Matt.  Both diseases weer 
TB>  able to benefit from fetal tissue research.  parkinson's was 
TB>  the disease that had actually had experiments, mostly in 
TB>  Europe, with fetal tissue implantations.

     Precisely.  And it was only announced a month ago that it 
was possible to screen for Altzheimer's so that anyone would know 
who to experiment upon.  
     
     Give it up.  You screwed up.  Nice try but it is still the 
wrong disease.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "God damn it, you can't do this to me."  Bill Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (2732)
To:      David Ogle                             28 Jan 95 23:48:00
Subject: URGENT! LEAD BULLET BAN                

DO>   >> This is just another chipping away of our rights.  If they can
DO>   >> claim authority over lead bullets, where will it end?

DO>      I dunno, more full metal jackets and reloading I suppose.

     JHP being safer than all lead, of course.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * The Not ready for Prime Time Adminstration.

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+++■■■■■ r_950203 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (3025)
To:      Lester Garrett                         31 Jan 95 13:00:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUN CONFISCATION              

LG>  The subsequent part(s) never made it here.  Can you repost 
LG>  the missing section.  I'm saving this one.  It makes a good 
LG>  example.  Thanks for the X-post.

     As usual.  But maybe someone else got the entire post.  It 
has been happening that way.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Bill Clinton is to Roger Rabbit as Hil Clinton is to ..

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+++■■■■■ r_950205 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (3259)
To:      Alec Grynspan                           2 Feb 95 06:16:00
Subject: AIDS IMMIGRATION BAN BAD               Rec'd 

AG>  MG>  up to $20.  That means 60 million potential immigrants are 
AG>  MG>   being tested.  That means you have your head up your ass.

AG> Matt - cut it.

     His head (which one?) or your ass?


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Left side of mouth not know what right side is saying.

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+++■■■■■ r_950209 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (3648)
To:      All                                     4 Feb 95 02:32:00
Subject: TIME FOR REAL CHANGE                   

                      Time for real change
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <2/4>

     There appears to be a half-baked, ill considered bill headed
for the desk of the President.  That will be a bill against
unfunded mandates being put on the states without a cost/benefit
analysis.  The problem is not that business is not included with
the states.  The problems is that it only takes a simple majority
to over-ride this law.
     At present the federal government can pass a law requiring
state and local governments to spend all the money necessary to
do anything it wishes and demand damages in court for
non-compliance.  With this law in place a simple majority will
not be able to do that unless the new law states that a
cost/benefit analysis is not required and a simple majority
passes it.
     In other words, there has been no change.  This is the best
response to the 10th Amendment resolution Gingrich can come up
with that he can get passed in the House and the Senate is still
problematic as is Clinton's signature.  In other words, they
think they have gotten their feet out of the fire.
     No way.  If this is the best they can do, fine.  The states
can do better.  They can join a new nation without a
Constitutional Convention.  There is no need for months or years
of wrangling.
     I propose that the states simply join the Allied States of
America.  As its constitution I propose that the present United
States Constitution be adopted in its entirety with two changes.
     The first change being that in the preamble "We, the people
of the United States" the words "people" and "United" be stricken
and replaced with the words "states" and "Allied" respectively.
     The second change is that the 16th Amendment, the income tax
amendment, be stricken completely and the succeeding amendments
be re-numbered.
     These two simple changes will make a very simple and
straight forward and hard to object to change.  It does not
invoke the nameless terrors of a Constitutional Convention.  It is
a simple proposal that the states can consider individually
without awaiting a law or an amendment to the present
constitution from the present Congress.
     As for procedural matters for ratification of this
constitution for this new country that would be left to the
individual states.  It would appear prudent to suggest that the
states announce it will be on the agenda following the next
election such that it can be platform issue for candidates to the
state legislatures and governorships.  That way there could be no
objection that the people of the states were not given their
chance to speak in the creation of the new country.
     There would be details that would need be worked out between
the United and the Allied states such as a proportionate share of
debts and obligations.  Of course the new Allied states would
have the option of selectively defaulting on them but that is a
separate issue.
     The issue of United States Government property within the
states of the Allied State would be a matter of ambassadorial
negotiation.  Although the obvious title to such properties and
lands would revert to the states of the Allied States it is the
shooting over such property that was the start of the Civil War.
It is essential to resist the impulse to draw first blood.  It is
essential that there be no call to arms and no threats.
     As for new systems and new activities such as Immigration
and Customs, fortunately such personnel are disbursed throughout
the states and they can simply be offered their same job with the
new government.  US dollars can remain legal tender until a
better system is devised to replace them.  There is no real cause
for any problem with the transition save if the United States is
not willing to convey to the Allied States such items and federal
pension and social security trust funds.
     The new Allied States could then adopt whatever laws from
the United States it deems valuable with perhaps an interim
stipulation that they are all in force for two years or so,
giving enough time to adopt or reject the national laws.
     At the same time all of the laws which bind the states and
the people that are not constitutional matters would be null and
void as the constitution of the Allied States is clearly
consented to by the states only and it can not extend to the
states themselves or the people of the states.  This difference
cleanly cuts any power of the new allied government from ability
to intrude into the rights of the states or the individual.
     The exclusion of the income tax amendment cleanly ends the
most powerful social engineering tool available to such a
government.  Many states survive very well upon a set of taxes
that are independent of individual income.  That the states will
have to work out a way to finance the Allied Government by some
other means is certainly a task to which they are able.
Certainly the greatly reduced size of that government will make
such financing much easier.
     This is the cleanest way to hold the Republican Congress's
feet to the fire.  As they do not appear willing to deliver on
state's rights then they are going to watch the peaceful
dissolution of the United States.  If the last election is any
indication the people of the states will certainly vote for state
legislators who will ratify this slightly modified constitution
and form a new nation.
     If this does not work, nothing will short of revolution.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * The only good criminal is a dead criminal.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (3649)
To:      All                                     4 Feb 95 06:11:00
Subject: RELIGION BELL AND SCHO 01              

              Myth and Religion and The Bell Curve
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <2/4>

     The school prayer issue is one that is not taken as more
than a passing matter of partisan political debate.  The issue
does go much deeper.  As recommended by the authors of The Bell
Curve society needs simple laws that everyone can grasp.
Religion as myth is one of those simple things that are needed to
deal with all levels of intellectual ability.
     The structure of myth is what we all share as part of our
nature as humans.  If we could speak in myth we could probably
speak with our nearest biological neighbors.  Myth is the grand
scheme by which we incorporate the chaos of reality into personal
perception and organization.  Religion is a quasi-intellectual
codification of myth.  Although religion institutes rules for
specific myths it still relies totally upon the schematic of
myth.
     Myth is what is it necessary for people to learn in terms of
the society in which they live.  Consider that every hero [us,
you and me] must be removed from their comfortable lives.  That
means us heroes must (and will) be faced with the unexpected, the
unpredictable, the unexplainable, i.e. chaos, in our lives.
     Myth has it that the hero will struggle to come to grips
with this new reality.  We know we must deal with the death of a
loved one or anything else that comes along and we must continue
to live despite it.
     Myth has it that after this struggle with chaos we will be
transformed into a new person who never again faces a struggle
with a recurrence of this same mythic evil which is chaos.  And
once we have first dealt with chaos we are expected to become
stronger and deal with the same again.  And if we do not deal
with it, if we do not triumph we feel we have failed.  And the
failed hero tries again.
     And once the hero has triumphed chaos never strikes him
again in the same manner.  It comes at him with completely new
challenges that are rarely as great as the first.  This not only
explains the failure of movie sequels it also addresses there
being a defining point in everyone's life where this metaphor
with chaos permits one to consider everything after less of a
struggle, less of a challenge, less of an intrusion upon the
perception we deal with daily.
     These are the simplest points of myth.  Myth is the
framework within which we structure the chaotic nature of
reality.  Intellectually the structure of myth is what
religion specializes in doing.  Any myth, as long as it is good,
is not sufficient, rather it has to be a particular form of the
myth.
     But the value of the myth it that it communicates with all
levels of intelligence.  Even the simplest mind, the lowest on
the Bell Curve can understand right from wrong in terms of myth.
There are pathologic personalities that can not but they are
distinct from the simple minded although at times they overlap.
     Which brings us around to religion in school.  The authors
of The Bell Curve point out the necessity of teaching everyone
the basics of justice and law in terms they can understand.  The
method must be simple so they can understand it.  It can not be
"to hard" for them.  It can not be the message "we have to send
your DNA to the lab to convict you."  It has to be a message of,
"if you harm others you are punished."
     Myth is the ordering structure we use to deal with the chaos
of reality.  It even includes the hero meeting a wise man or a
god or some such which tells us that asking advice and following
it is a good thing to do.  Myth even has what the hero does in
old age, he retreats from power and becomes the wise man to be
consulted.
     That myth is the structure of the mind is also the reason we
have such a problem with science.  Science is an intellectual
exercise that uses tools of reason that are not myth.  But as is
science, so is law and again The Bell Curve points out that
teaching law is a much a failure as teaching science to make
people think scientifically or to follow the letter of the law.
     Myth must be taught.  The myth makers of our society
generally appear to understand their responsibility.  Evil never
triumphs save to never triumph again in a sequel.  The forms of
legend are not used to implant that which is bad into the mind of
the movie viewer.  We have dystopic heroes but they are heroes.
And the interesting part is that if the "Blofeld" in the book
kills the "James Bond" the book does not sell.  Why?
     Evil, the bad guy, is chaos and the triumph of chaos is a
failure of the hero and therefore a personal failure of the myth.
We can not identify with the success of chaos or failure of the
hero.  That me can not identify begs the question of why and how
we identify.  That identification is from myth and myth being the
structure with which we deal with reality.  We must be taught to
fill in the structure of myth with what is of value to our
society.
     And there is one further point.  Anyone one bright enough
not to need the structure being filled in will create their own
structure.  Those who are not bright enough to get beyond the
simple structure need it desperately.  Without the structure
being filled in they will fill it in with the local con man or
drug dealer.
     You can see this in the structure of myth rather more
commonly in story telling which is myth as a story is not
memorable unless it complies with the structure of myth.  (This
is even down to the little Mexican dog was really a rat as that
is chaos upon reality, joining a strange, new world and
overcoming that new reality.)  And thus the structure of religion
in some form being taught in schools is beneficial to all
society as religion is the best approximation we have to myth we
have and it is the only one that can be taught.  Myth has to be
experienced and enjoyed which is not the classroom setting.
     The only risk of teaching religion is that it will be
imposed in a three centuries old sense which is rather a
primitive idea.  Of course there are still running problems with
religion in society such as all the dominant ones being against
abortion ... but that is not really a problem.
     Myth teaches us that hard decisions have to be made and
abortion is a hard decision.  Teaching it is wrong is fine as
long as it also teaches that facing the crisis of "wrong" is
something to be overcome and to grow from the decision.
Unfortunately today were are teaching science, a cost/benefit
analysis to those who will never have the ability to think in
those terms much less ever perform one.  We are teaching reason
to the uninitiated.
     Reason is a digression upon our natural way of dealing with
reality.  Reason has no archetypes, no heroes, no simularities
with what we know from life.   It is inappropriate to apply
ration methods to myth.  Reason is independent of mythos.  It is
a very recent divergence in one small area of human behavior.
     Most human behavior is cast in terms of myth.  Most
reporting of events is cast in terms of myth.  The very thought
by editors and the like of "what is the human angle?" is the very
embodiment of fitting fact into mythos.  "If it bleeds, it
leads"?  If chaos strikes it is a story.
     Chaos?  Is not a cultural icon suddenly changing into
something else of interest?  Tune into the all OJ network.  Is
not the attempt to cast every "news" story into myth what we
perceive in our apprehension of daily life?  Perhaps not yours
but mine.  News is not only what is common, it is what tells a
story even if the story be only that Chaos Happens.
     A child can not understand the news without the myth making
structure for dealing with chaos being filled in.  Thus we have
to teach something in our schools.  Perhaps of course we can rely
upon parents but more rationally, those who do not need to be
taught will outgrow it.  Those who can not outgrow it need to be
taught.
     And if you are bright enough to have gone through the
routine to have read this message certainly I am not talking
about you as needing religion.  Nor am I talking about your
children given the genetic component of intelligence and I
certainly presume you are providing the environment for them to
learn as you have learned.  I am talking about "them."  That is
. 
Continued in the next message...

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (3651)
To:      Jack Wilder                             4 Feb 95 06:23:00
Subject: 70% FAVOUR GUN CONTRO                  

JW>  MG>  there is no connection between IQ score and intelligence 
JW>  MG>  can not be insulted by saying they have a low IQ as they 
JW>  MG>  hold it has nothing to with intelligence.

JW>          I think that it should be taken with a grain of 
JW>    salt, and a sense of humor.

     I you do not mind, that is exactly what I have been told 
here.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Republican smoke and mirrors, Clinton's drug references.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (3654)
To:      Jack Wilder                             4 Feb 95 15:40:00
Subject: REAGAN IS DYING                        

JW>  -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Travis Beard <=-

JW>  TB>  Ronald Reagan banned research using fetal tissue during his
JW>  TB>  administration.

JW>  MG> That was for Parkinson's youngster.  Get your story straight
JW>  MG> for once.

JW>         I believe that he made it very clear that he opposed
JW>   ANY fetal tissue research, so he is as correct as you are!

     Lets see.  

     Reagan was against vivisection therefore ...

     Reagan was against medical experiments on the lesser races 
therefore ...

     Reagan was against compromise with the Russians therefore...

     That makes no sense.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "We must have the courage to quit."  -- W. Clinton

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (3655)
To:      Jim Sterling                            4 Feb 95 15:49:00
Subject: UFO'S AND THE BIBLE   2/2              

JS> NZ>   What qualifications does one need to research, calculate,  
JS> NZ>  match texts with the originals, or compare a scripture  
JS> NZ>  found in different Books of the Bible; but all in the same  
JS> NZ>  context?

JS>  MG>       A working knowledge of Hebrew, Sanskrit and Greek 
JS>  MG>  would be a minimal start.

JS>   Niki has claimed to be literate in Hebrew, Chaldean and 
JS>  Greek.  Whether Attic or Demotic or some other form was not 
JS>  mentioned.

     I missed that claim.  It would be interesting to see it 
repeated.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Hill kills Hil's Bill, Hil kills Bill, Dems ill. Variety

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+++■■■■■ r_950210 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (3834)
To:      Andy Von Busse                          6 Feb 95 00:50:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUN CONFISCATION              

AB> MG>AB>  Thanks from all Canadian Gun Owners for this posting, Matt.
AB> MG>AB>  I met with Ernie in Regina this last weekend, (yes, there
AB> MG>AB>  really is a gun lobby in Canada)

AB> MG>     Nonsense.  You folks all love your gun laws just the way
AB> MG>they are.

AB> Wrong. Why would you make such an inflammatory statement?

     Except for you the only real Canadians on this conference 
are in favor of even more gun law restrictions so you are 
obviously the person going against the tide, an American who 
migrated to Canada.  You obviously can not be a real Canadians.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * It isn't rape.  It is a contribution.

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+++■■■■■ r_950213 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (958)
To:      Alan Hess                               7 Feb 95 04:50:00
Subject: AUSCHWITZ                              

AH>  Today is the 50th anniversary of the liberation of the 
AH>  Nazis' Auschwitz death camp in Poland.  Survivors, their 
AH>  families, families of victims, clergy of several 
AH>  denominations, and heads of state were at Auschwitz to 
AH>  commemorate the anniversary and mourn the dead.

     May it rest in peace with Pearl Harbor and Canaan.

AH>  Unfortunately, some people still contend that the 
AH>  atrocities at Auschwitz and other concentration camps never 
AH>  happened, despite the admissions and records of 
AH>  perpetrators.  One can only guess at their motives for 
AH>  trying to revise history.

     It is history, it is dead give it a rest.

AH>  Meanwhile, ethnic cleansing of Muslims goes on in Bosnia.  
AH>  That will end one day, and then deniers will claim it never 
AH>  happened.  *adh*

     So?  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * The Constitution is not a technicality.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (959)
To:      Bob Rosenblum                           7 Feb 95 04:58:00
Subject: AUSCHWITZ                              

BR>  MP>  I may be wrong but I don't think there has ever been a 
BR>  MP>  person who lived through that era who ever denied it 
BR>  MP>  occured.  i too cannot see a

BR>  Well, Pat Buchanan for one - you know part of that new 
BR>  Republican majority that we are so happy to welcome to 
BR>  Washington?

     There is a horse you road in on.  Do not forget where you 
parked it.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Who did he screw and when did he screw her?

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+++■■■■■ r_950214 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (888)
To:      All                                     8 Feb 95 02:08:00
Subject: AUSCHWITZ                              

KW>  The vast majority of intelligent Christians as well as Jews 
KW>  know full well that the holocaust was a reality.  It's 
KW>  memories *must* be kept alive to ensure that it doesn't 
KW>  happen to *any* group.  Wouldn't it be a strange twist of 
KW>  fate for all of the neo-Nazi scumbags if *their* group were 
KW>  selected for genocide because they were deemed inferior?  
KW>  As for Bosnia, it appears that Europe has the "As long as 
KW>  it's not happening to me" attitude, and that's just sad.  
KW>  If we wanted to, the U.S.  could probably stop the whole 
KW>  crazy situation in about a week or less.  That's something 
KW>  that I would go back into the military for.

     To bad there were not any descendants of the Canaanites or 
the Jerichoans around to stop this one.  

     This one is nothing special.  It is not the biggest or the 
most recent or anything else outstanding.  

     It simply has the best publicists.  

     It has been fifty years.  We can't even have a stamp of the 
bomb that ended the war but we get these damned holocaust museums 
all of our (the wrong) country.  

     And after all these years we do not have the slightest focus 
on how to ever prevent it again.  It is so Judeo-centric that all 
anyone aspiring to dictatorship needs to do is speak well of the 
Jews while incited hatred of any other group he might like.  

     And if you think it is not possible, look at the hatred that 
appears when even only the beliefs of fundamentalist Christians 
are brought up.  Try bringing up the beliefs and actions of 
similarly primitive Jews and see what happens.  

     The first response is they do not try to impose their way 
upon others.  Kyrias Joel was not an accident.  Protesting a 
Macdonald's because of the smell of cheeseburgers is taken 
seriously but Christian Fundies protesting an adult book store 
calls out the ACLU.  (Of course freedom to eat is not protected 
by the 1st amendment.)

     This entire Holocaust and Jewish thing truly does have the 
best publicists.  But then it is now been 50 years.  Time to drop 
the annual commemorations and all just like every other aspect of 
the war.  It is history and a trivial part of history.  

     Since then we have had some 40 million Chinese exterminated 
by their own people for political reasons.  We have witnessed one 
third of Cambodia exterminated for political reasons.  We have 
seen a million B'hais in Iran exterminated for religious reasons.  
Just last year we witnessed a half million or so in Rwanda 
exterminated for tribal reasons.  As you read this we are 
watching a 100,000 or so Chechnyans being exterminated for 
political reasons.  I do not think anyone has a total for Bosnia 
as yet but that such run a million if it finishes this time 
around.  And who could forget Somalia?

     It is not all that much save for the publicity and 
dramatization.  The story has gone into mythos and legend.  It is 
ultimate evil personified.  But remembering and retelling the 
story have not done the least to prevent the partial listing of 
events in the previous paragraph.  Which leads to the only valid 
conclusion that indulging in the Holocaust has done not one damn 
thing so far and it is not likely that more of the same will do 
anything either.

     Jews came to this country because it does not happen here.  
There are some words on the Statue of Liberty to the effect that 
this country takes in people like that.  Fine.  You are here.  
You are safe now.  Try to get over your paranoia.  The war is 
over.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (889)
To:      Ken Newell                              8 Feb 95 03:58:00
Subject: CANADIANS                              

KN>  How many Canadians have full medical coverage versus how 
KN>  many Americans?  Because we don't think in terms of full 
KN>  capitalist notions doesn't mean we cannot think!  Our 
KN>  priorities tend to be in areas that are quite different 
KN>  from the US.  

     First off, Canada contributed ZERO to the Cold War.  

     Second, solely due to the indulgence in its socialist 
system and without national defense playing a significant role, 
Canada has accumulated a per person national and provincial debt 
that surpasses the US. 

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * It's The Clinton, Stupid.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (890)
To:      Alan Hess                               8 Feb 95 04:06:00
Subject: KILLER WOLVES!                         

     This is what it all hinges on.  

AH>  FS> was found shot to death.  He was part of a pack of 15 wolves
AH>  FS> which had been imported from Canada to "restore wolves to the
AH>  FS> Rocky Mountain States".

AH> A damn fine idea.

     Why?

     That is the question.  What value is this exercise in the 
first place?  Why is is a "damn fine idea"?

     Where do you live and why is it not a "damn fine idea" to 
introduce predators into the middle of your city?  Please be 
specific on the differences between where you live and where 
those who object live.

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Bill and Al's Bogus Adventure begins!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (891)
To:      Pete Bucy                               8 Feb 95 04:10:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

PB>   I was in the grocery store the first time I saw one of 
PB>  those grim tattoos.  A woman behind me reached for a pack of 
PB>  gum and I saw the numbers on the inside of her arm.  I am 
PB>  not easily stunned, but it took a couple of moments for me 
PB>  to reset my gyros.

     Actually this is a fascinating subject in itself.  Presuming 
the numbers were issued sequentially what is the highest number 
known?
     
     And were they issued in the cattle cars?  

     Why a number rather than a simple "J" or some such?  
     
     Why a tattoo rather than a brand?  

     I think these questions are obvious in their implications.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Nightmare on Pennsylvania Avenue, Part 2:  The Clintons

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (892)
To:      Shane Gouseman                          8 Feb 95 04:19:00
Subject: TOBACCO INDUSTRY                       

SG> CB>  Whether or not other air contaminants are more hazardous 
SG> CB>  than secondhand smoke is not relevant to resolving these 
SG> CB>  two questions.

SG>    Of course it is.  These very harmful chemicals in the air 
SG>  is what we need to address.  Most of which is more 
SG>  dangerious then smoke.

     Speaking of the restaurant industry, it would be more 
rational to ban char-broiled meat than smoking.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (907)
To:      Carole Thomas                           8 Feb 95 23:46:00
Subject: CHAOS IS WORSE THAN Y 1/2              

CT>       While it is true that we do not know everything about 
CT>  everything, the reason we know this is because we see 
CT>  results or occurrences happening without apparent 
CT>  explanation.  That leads to a supposition that there is an 
CT>  unknown connector that must exist and can be discovered.  
CT>  Saying we do not know everything is different from saying 
CT>  we can not know everything.

     A truly random event can not be known by definition 
obviously.  And we have found truly random event.  That is the 
basis for the Shroedinger's Cat problem.  There are things 
intrinsic to our universe that we can not know.  What makes it 
pervasive is that it includes all forms of radiation including 
light.  That light can generally be taken as an aggregate and 
that is almost always works the same way is what we perceive.  

CT>       More likely the question has always been, how do we 
CT>  arrange what we do know in order to figure out what we 
CT>  don't know, i.e., what's going to happen next?  The larger 
CT>  world appears orderly only where experience has informed us 
CT>  that human intervention of a certain sort will produce 
CT>  similar results over time.  Human activity arranges itself 
CT>  within the known limits of predictability, refining and 
CT>  enlarging these parameters as new understanding occurs.

     Which leads to the way we store memories.  As noted it is 
not by events but rather by characteristics.  We perceive things 
by those characteristics.  Something new is addressed by what new 
combination of characteristics it has that makes it unique.  

     And that is the way of reality.  Certain general things 
happen but not in exactly the same combination twice.  Having a 
"good" or "bad" day is a characteristic that can define an entire 
day.  We are able to deal with chaotic reality by this means of 
not being concerned about the combination but with only the 
characteristics.  

     As for our intervention, note we do not attempt to create an 
entire set of interventions to control the results.  We do try to 
find the most effective single means to change the course of 
events and if possible follow up to get things going the way we 
want.  

CT>       What is essential is that we believe that we can know 
CT>  more.  We know that people do win the lottery, a totally 
CT>  magical event with our current body of knowledge.  But 
CT>  there were times known when the rain was magical and we 
CT>  prayed to the rain gods, when the failure or success of 
CT>  crops was so unpredictable that elaborate ceremonies 
CT>  invoking the assistance of the supernatural were played out 
CT>  regularly.  Now we have the "butterfly effect" to 
CT>  contemplate, so far have we come in our efforts at imposing 
CT>  order on apparent randomness.

     And rather interestingly weather is one of those totally 
chaotic things so they were perhaps on the right track.  
Certainly we knew there would be a "coldest night of the year" 
for Tampa Bay since before there was a Tampa Bay.  We did not 
know 9 February would be in the running.  In this area we are not 
certain that we will reach freezing every year.  The memories of 
1989 are of the one characteristic, the year of 17 degrees and 
the blackouts.

CT>       The mathematical computations that will most 
CT>  convincingly prove that something is or isn't true are, 
CT>  after all, a human product.  Mathematics does not exist in 
CT>  isolation in the universe but is invoked only by the human 
CT>  who has developed these non-living symbols as a 
CT>  representation of something real.  The results are still 
CT>  going to have to be explained using language.

     And this mathematical representation of reality is the best 
we have to work with.  We have found a way to describe likelihoods 
of events rather than events themselves.  17 degrees is very 
unlikely while the lack of a night in the 30s in unlikely but 
that is the best we can say about them.  Adding numbers to the 
process is simply an implementation of a pre-existing concept.

CT> CT>       On a near scale, prediction can be reasonably precise.
CT> CT>  A weight dropped from waist height on your toe will hurt.

CT> MG>  like your dropping example, the best that can be said for 
CT> MG>  the high drops is down.  If it is something like going to 
CT> MG>  college the

CT>       It is interesting to me at least that you are saying 
CT>  that if you drop something it will go down, whereas I have 
CT>  added that if you drop something on your toe, your toe will 
CT>  hurt.  Many of your arguments seem to suggest that 
CT>  knowledge is an end in itself, that all that can truly be 
CT>  known is what can be represented as that which has an 
CT>  absolute beginning and end and which can be reproduced 
CT>  endlessly with total precision.  The purpose of knowledge 
CT>  is in its' human application and whereas there may be 
CT>  limits on what science can know and predict, there are no 
CT>  such limits on what the human mind can invent.

     If I knew I was right it would hardly be worth discussing.  
I am merely describing my understanding after spending way too 
many years thinking about it and not getting very far.

     I was stuck at one point knowing the universe is essentially 
chaotic and having only the ordered way of thinking to deal with 
it.  That did not make sense.  What got me this far was realizing 
the mind is in fact capable of dealing with chaos and thus that 
is its essential organization and function.  It is not to 
understand the world in an orderly fashion in the least.  

     Math and science are simply rather technical descriptions of 
some of the characteristics the mind naturally creates.  



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (909)
To:      Carole Thomas                           9 Feb 95 01:29:00
Subject: CHAOS IS WORSE THAN Y 2/2              

CT> MG>       But these will be a better grasp of the statistical 
CT> MG>  likelihood of the events rather than a deterministic 
CT> MG>  statement of events.

CT>       And that "better grasp" will occur as a result of what 
CT>  now seems no more than an intuitive feeling that there is 
CT>  something else out there.  It is as much an aspect of 
CT>  grabbing onto and including other possible factors into the 
CT>  equation as it is of rearranging the already known parts.

     That gets us back to the hope of finding something that will 
explain what now appears chaotic.  Although there is no way to 
predict that future either.  Given the way we perceive reality we 
are very unlikely to ever come up with anything that differs from 
the way we are proceeding, that being to provide descriptions of 
our categorized perceptions by other means.  That our mode of 
perception is embedded in chaos does not bode well for being able 
to describe it in other terms as the form of perception will not 
change.

CT> MG>       That is why I say it is the generic nervous system 
CT> MG>  rather than intelligence.  If a squirrel can survive chaos 
CT> MG>  it doesn't take that much intelligence.

CT>       I think we can assume we're discussing more than mere 
CT>  survival here.  The squirrel survives in a circumbscribed 
CT>  world, having made no noticeable attempt to expand its 
CT>  influence or involvement.  Nevertheless there are probably 
CT>  some squirrels that do better than others in whatever it is 
CT>  they value and that will be a function of intelligence 
CT>  sending better messages to their nervous system, if this is 
CT>  indeed the force to be driven.

     I look at it differently.  There are several possible 
explanations for how a squirrel survives in the sense of living.  
Obviously we have the explanations of instinct  and the more 
general species specific behavior.  Any creature that can not 
learn can not survive.  That is fine for squirrels living in the 
wild.  Trees can be instinct.  Acorns can be instinct.  But 
consider they will eat any form of nut even our mis-named peanut 
and treat it like an acorn.  But how can a new world squirrel 
identify an African shrub trying to be a Banyan tree?

     OK, it acts upon traits, aspects of reality as we do.  
Edible size, bite.  Taste, good.  Proceed to eat and live off of 
if possible.

     Now how does a squirrel survive in the city?  Consider the 
strangest thing in nature is a straight line.  Cities have them.  
If they are rough enough squirrels will climb them.  Thus the 
attribute that relates to climbing is not tree bark but 
roughness.  

     Consider squirrels are the bane of people with bird feeders.  
Not only straight lines but strange devices to keep squirrels 
out.  Yet if there is anything high enough to jump from a 
squirrel will get to the bird feed.  The parameters of living are 
what squirrels have learned.  Jumping from tree to tree is not 
that but jumping as a means to food.  

     Obviously animals are able to learn in the same way we are 
able to learn because the nervous system, the brain, is of the 
form of dealing with characteristics rather than entire 
circumstance.  This in itself explains much of animal behavior.  

     And what can they not to?  Anything we spring on an animal 
that is totally beyond its experience.  We can put a hundred bird 
feeders out and never confuse a squirrel.  Put it in a cage and 
it panics and might even die before adapting.  Raise a squirrel 
inside a house where there are natural limits and it will adapt 
to a cage.  (Mixing metaphors here.  This does happen with cats, 
wild and domesticated.)  When we hit them with something too 
human they have problems.  Sort of like the description of people 
being watched by a tiger or a pack of wolves.  It cuts both ways.

CT>       By the way, who is Shroedinger's Cat?  I know a few 
CT>  squirrels, but haven't met this cat.

     I forgot the c in Schroedinger perhaps being made up for in 
the cat.  In any event it was his "pet" way to describe quantum 
phenomenon and to describe the problem with comprehending it at 
the same time.  

     Devise a box such that there is no way to determine what has 
happened inside without opening it.  In it put a mechanism that 
will release poison gas when one atom spontaneously decays.  Into 
this box put one cat and close.  As there is no way to know what 
is happening inside nor is there any way to know whether the cat 
is dead or alive until it is opened.  That is, reality can not 
exist until it is observed.  

     This is a macro illustration of the problem that a quantum 
state is NOT resolved until it is observed.  It literally has no 
outcome until observation.  And the consequences to the cat are 
the macro event that also can not be resolved.  (Of course this 
presumes that, unlike squirrels, cats can not observe.)  It is 
the phenomenon that is well proven and established of the 
interaction of the observer and the phenomenon.  

     This is one of the problems that got me thinking on the 
subject some 30 years ago.  Now I would say it is an equal aspect 
of our means of observing in that we can only deal with one 
aspect at a time.  (In this case there are only two possible 
aspects.  To know both aspects would be to know everything, that 
elusive and non-existent goal.)  But as we are in the mirror of 
reality that is the only way it can happen in reality also.  


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+++■■■■■ r_950216 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1055)
To:      Ebriggs Parker                         10 Feb 95 21:18:00
Subject: RELIGION BELL AND SC                   

EP>   Then my misunderstanding friend are you saying that we 
EP>  should take a book full of short stories as law above and 
EP>  beyond all laws man has set forth.  This is a juvenile way 
EP>  of looking at things and should of been left back in the 
EP>  pre dark ages, the Bible has no place in this twisted world 
EP>  we riside in.  We should take science as truth for it is the 
EP>  only thing we can truly prove for what the bible would have 
EP>  us believe could never of happened, look  at any story in 
EP>  the Bible for what is.  Do not look at it as a fanatic but 
EP>  as  alogical person and you will see that every story in 
EP>  the bible tries to  explain why things happened the way 
EP>  they did, it is a poor mans book of  knowledge.  Now that 
EP>  man has become more knowledgeable he can truly understand 
EP>  the Bible and all of its writings inside of it.  Your reply 
EP>  is being looked forward to.

     Although I agree teaching religion in schools is a 
generically poor idea I certainly would not like see state 
mandated moral values taught.  Yet I do want to see the benefits 
of the moral standards of religion as a minimum in everyone.  I 
would certainly expect the majority to be able to do much better 
than that.  But for those who can not do better than that they 
have nothing and no place to learn the minimum.

     One of the points made in BC is that the complexity of law 
and proper behavior is not something everyone can grasp.  The OT, 
NT, Koran, a few other books do present such matters in about the 
simplest form possible.  The golden rule is a trite saying unless 
it can be attached to something of merit such as a god.  

     The value of teaching religion in school is to get through 
to everyone the basics of what is needed to live in our society.  
The person does not have to be religious nor need there be any 
requirement to believe anything in it for anyone.  For those who 
are not up to dealing with the complexities of law and custom it 
is desirable to get something through to them that just might 
help get the crime and illegitimacy rates down among other 
benefits.  

     As it is we are teaching no values any place but in the home 
and the media.  The days when the bad guy always lost are over.  
The home is failing most people these days.  The streets teach 
anything is OK if you can get away with it.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1056)
To:      Bruce Riley                            10 Feb 95 22:07:00
Subject: RELIGION IN SCHOOLS                    

BR> MG>BR> MG>      Not in my copy of the constitution.  In fact it is 
BR> MG>BR> MG> silent upon education and thus that is reserved to the 
BR> MG>BR> MG> states per the 10th amendment.

BR> MG>BR>  Rather than the 10th, see how the 14th bounces it back to 
BR> MG>BR>  the 1st.

BR> MG>     Not in my 14th either.  What might you be referring to?

BR> Well, here in the 14th amendment we find:

BR>   No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge 
BR>  the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United 
BR>  States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, 
BR>  liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny 
BR>  to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection 
BR>  of the laws.
BR> 
BR>  and for those "privileges and immunities" we go to the 1st:
BR> 
BR>  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of 
BR>  religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

BR>  Thus as long as our children are required to go to school, 
BR>  I can't see that they be required to pray, nor have their 
BR>  curriculums altered to suit the creationist views of the 
BR>  hyperchristians.  I see no problem with comparative 
BR>  religion classes; in fact I think they're an excellent 
BR>  idea.  But leave the *practicing* of any one religion to 
BR>  that religion's church.
BR> 
BR>  Now let me get out of here before I get clobbered with an 
BR>  off-topic warning.

     You have all the makings of an attorney.  The moderator will 
be tied in knots with your creative interpretation of the rules 
as well as of the constitution.  I'll crosspost this to Holysmoke 
and Debate if you wish to continue the discussion.

     More to the point, I do not see any way to have "privileges 
and immunities" which refers to things established in law (such 
as only whites can own property) can be extended to religion in 
schools.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Our Father ... lead us not into temptation ..." J.H. Christ

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1066)
To:      All                                    11 Feb 95 18:19:00
Subject: CREATING A CONSTROVERSY                

                     Creating a Controversy
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <2/11>

     The controversy over The Bell Curve has been manufactured
for one reason.  It provides the evidence forty years of
political posturing and rhetoric has been wrong.  The findings
presented in the book are rejected solely for the reason they
take the oppressed masses and the evil ones out of the moral
equation.  It has ended a myth.
     Casting all race differences as a matter of good and evil
and being on the side of good made one a hero in one's own eyes.
It permits one who believes in this simple myth to be a champion
of good, truth, justice and the American way and all that.
Losing that self-identification means a loss of self-importance.
It is not something people are willing to give up easily.
     Sanctimony has always surrounded the race issue.  It was an
opportunity to have a simple belief in right and wrong.  It did
not require any thinking as the truth was known and all
complexity was easily rejected out of hand as a sign of the
emergence of evil.
     Even though the book does not focus on race, merely
addresses it, it is unlucky chapter thirteen that bears the brunt
of the fury.  This is the myth busting chapter.  This is the
chapter that shouts, "but he has no clothes."
     Beyond the loss of self-importance people have based their
entire economic lives on the untruth chapter thirteen exposes.
Political careers are based upon it.  And this is like the Pope
responding to conclusive proof Jesus Christ died of old age.  So
many people have simply been wrong for most of their lives.
     It is part and parcel with the ideals of a color blind
society being abandoned and beginning the practice of reverse
racism.  If we truly had a color blind society, if we truly
treated everyone as an individual then there would be no problem
with chapter thirteen.  Were that the case the chapter would
simply explain the difference in racial representation in the
various social categories (which is all it does) rather than as
something evil that has to be fought.
     The book does nothing to anyone of any race but rather it
deals a mortal wound to those who believe in race, who believe in
dealing with people as members of a race rather than as
individuals.  And without a race issue there is no race to be
championed.  Don Quixote can go home can go home; they really
are windmills.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1070)
To:      Alec Grynspan                          11 Feb 95 21:46:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUN CONFISCATION              Rec'd 

AG>  MG> are in favor of even more gun law restrictions so you are
AG>  MG> obviously the person going against the tide, an American who
AG>  MG> migrated to Canada.  You obviously can not be a real Canadians.

AG> Wanna try again?

     You're gone so long between posts I often forget there are 
two fake Canadians on this conference.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1071)
To:      Andy Von Busse                         11 Feb 95 21:49:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUN CONFISCATION              

AB>  No, Matt, when it comes down to real fighting on this gun 
AB>  control issue, whether in the US or here in Canada, we who 
AB>  oppose the lunacy of further controls will gladly teach you 
AB>  in the US how to fight the gun control freaks properly.  
AB>  Afterall, we don't have the 2nd amendment, and we still are 
AB>  making in roads.

     Have you contacted the heads of the American organization 
about setting up Canadian branches or how to organize?  It would 
be bad press for US groups to interfere directly but there 
certainly must be something more organized than this kind of 
letter writing campaign.  If not there is certainly room for an 
organized effort.

AB>  Fees start at $3,000 per week.  :)

     Starting next week of course.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1092)
To:      Michael Pilon                          13 Feb 95 00:31:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUN CONFISCA                  

MP>  MG>  Except for you the only real Canadians on this conference 
MP>  MG>  are in favor of even more gun law restrictions so you are 
MP>  MG>  obviously the person going against the tide, an American 
MP>  MG>  who migrated to Canada.  You obviously can not be a real 
MP>  MG>  Canadians.

MP>  I think Andy originally came from Germany, his view on guns 
MP>  is more a factor of his lving out west where Hunting and 
MP>  fishing are more a part of the life style.

     In other words it is the policy of Canada to make it more 
difficult for people to engage in certain lifestyles?  I do not 
see that the purpose of any government save for a criminal life 
style.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Any answer over three words is no.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1093)
To:      Michael Pilon                          13 Feb 95 01:47:00
Subject: DOLE ON LETTERMAN                      

MP>      I for one was impressed and encouraged to see a man 
MP>  with a broad scope on the possible US leadership horizon.  
MP>  Responses requested ..naturally ;)

     The only two candidates left standing will be Dole and 
Buchanan and Buchanan is not serious.  And then, absent some dark 
horse or major change in the political climate, Dole being the 
next president.  A bit brighter than Gingrich and he doesn't 
lecture.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1094)
To:      Pete Bucy                              13 Feb 95 01:57:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

PB>   These folks are living artifacts of at time, not all that 
PB>  far removed from our generation, when man applied the tools 
PB>  of industry, in all its fury, to the destruction of 
PB>  innocent men, women, and children in the most inhuman ways 
PB>  imaginable.  Yet, fifty years later, the people of Rwanda 
PB>  managed to kill over 500,000 of their fellow countrymen in 
PB>  only a couple of weeks, with nothing more than small arms 
PB>  and garden tools.
PB> 
PB>   I guess that we have not learned much in the last fifty 
PB>   years.

     Interestingly what we have not learned is that other than 
the ad copy, the holocaust was nothing special.   It is hard to 
imagine a means of assessing it that makes it the "largest" or 
"worst" anything.  It is only history and not a very remarkable 
history at that.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

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+++■■■■■ r_950221 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1388)
To:      Peter Bradie                           14 Feb 95 20:38:00
Subject: The holocaust                          

PB>  MP>  Luftmensch ? Airhead ??...My Yiddish isn't up to 
PB>  MP>  par..already ;).  

PB>  A "mensch" is a Man; an exemplar.  A "luftmensch", 
PB>  literally an "air-man", is a hollow man, a nothing, a 
PB>  ballon or a caricature of a man.
PB> 
PB>  Just a play on words.:-)

     But in the US Air Force, the same term refers to the 
officers.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Right of the Individual to be an Individual.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1389)
To:      All                                    14 Feb 95 20:39:00
Subject: UFO's and the Bible                    

     For what it is worth, Niki Zanzo did show up on Holysmoke, 
was upset with all the unchristian talk, declared to be a male 
and hasn't posted in a week.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy isn't a civil right; it is a privledge.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1390)
To:      Jack Wilder                            14 Feb 95 20:47:00
Subject: US ARMY CAPT. IN HAITI FA              

JW>  MG> It is like me pretending what I write is straight news.  

JW>         You mean kinda like ABC, NBC, and CBS???

     I am a bit more honest than them.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I,Matthias Gloriosus,I,messager to 1000s,I am my ideal.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1391)
To:      Grant Karpik                           16 Feb 95 02:25:00
Subject: CANADIANS                              

GK> MG>      First off, Canada contributed ZERO to the Cold War.  

GK>  Hmmm.  I guess those troops we had stationed in Europe 
GK>  didn't really exist....

     Maybe those 20 did exist but I was rather thinking of the 
nuclear shield the Canadians admittedly lived under with zero 
contribution.  I can also discuss the near zero contribution of 
Canada in anything but manpower.  

     I dealt with the Canadian Navy on several occasions and we 
(US Navy) treated them like poor cousins.  They were given every 
break we could on price and such because we knew they were 
operating on a shoestring.  
     
     It Canadian volunteers had had to rely upon what Canada 
provided independently and without special favors and pricing 
they would be lucky to have a cavalry that is armored.

GK> MG>       Second, solely due to the indulgence in its socialist 
GK> MG>  system and without national defense playing a significant 
GK> MG>  role,  Canada has accumulated a per person national and 
GK> MG>  provincial debt  that surpasses the US.  

GK>  Our debt, as has been pointed out before, has little to do 
GK>  with our spending on social programs.  Besides, our per 
GK>  capita debt is *barely* larger than yours *and* we get a 
GK>  heck of a lot more in the way of govt.  services per dollar 
GK>  than you guys....

     You are working to confirm what I said?  Thank you.

     Yes, you did get more and do get more "services" for your 
dollar as your "dollar" (for what that is worth) is not spent on 
defense which has ranged from 20-30% of our expenditures since 
1949.  You folks spent around 5% on defense.  

     Certainly you got more for your dollar.  You got the 
differnece in defense expenditures thrown in and you still spent 
more than we did.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: None of my opinions are humble.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1392)
To:      Jack Wilder                            16 Feb 95 02:31:00
Subject: GEPHARDT'S BULL                        

JW>  MG> confirmation their claims regarding his mental condition have 
JW>  MG> been adjudged false by doctors.

JW>          Since when is false, or true, been of interest to 
JW>    radical liberals??(;->*

     As opposed to non-radical liberals?  Which wildlife refuge 
are they kept in?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I didn't make this world. I only brought it to its knee

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1393)
To:      Loralie Freeman                        16 Feb 95 20:43:00
Subject: Canadian Gun Confiscatio               

LF> MG>      Except for you the only real Canadians on this 
LF> MG> conference are in favor of even more gun law restrictions so 
LF> MG> you are obviously the person going against the tide, an 
LF> MG> American who migrated to Canada.  You obviously can not be a 
LF> MG> real Canadians.

LF>  And what defines a 'real' Canadian?  One who is trying her 
LF>  darndest not to become a gun-shot statistic?

     A real Canadian is one who believes that his fellow 
Canadians will take up criminal careers if they have easy access 
to hand guns.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: My incoming messages have the right of way.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1394)
To:      Chris Baugh                            16 Feb 95 20:48:00
Subject: CANADIANS                              

CB>  MG>      First off, Canada contributed ZERO to the Cold War.  

CB>  One would think they would have been well qualified to 
CB>  contribute.  At least a few igloos could have been 
CB>  imported.

     Made by Eskimo slave labor no doubt.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even Eternal Truth doesn't last forever.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1395)
To:      Pete Bucy                              16 Feb 95 21:34:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

PB> MG>     Why a number rather than a simple "J" or some such?  

PB>   For the same reason that a social security card does not 
PB>  have just a "J" or a "C."
     
     I am making a different point.  Regardless of the number the 
result was the same for all numbers.  So why not simply a J?  I 
do not see any particular value in the process itself.

PB> MG>     Why a tattoo rather than a brand?  

PB>  Less chance of infection.

     Why would they care?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Do you expect the poor to hire you?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1396)
To:      Jack Wilder                            16 Feb 95 21:37:00
Subject: TIME FOR REAL CHANGE                   

JW>  MG>  The second change is that the 16th Amendment, the income 
JW>  MG>  tax amendment, be stricken completely and the succeeding 
JW>  MG>  amendments be re-numbered.

JW>          I agree with the proviso that the fourteenth be 
JW>    stricken also.

     I do not see the 14th as the statist gateway it is being 
portrayed as these days.  So far as I can tell Federal 
citizenship is just another of those ploys that ends, "and 
therefore you do not have to pay income tax."  That is the 16th.

     I can hardly accept such a nefarious hidden intention in the 
wording of the amendment.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Double O Limbaugh, License to annoy.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1397)
To:      Chris Baugh                            16 Feb 95 21:41:00
Subject: TOBACCO INDUSTRY                       

CB>  MG>  Speaking of the restaurant industry, it would be more 
CB>  MG>  rational to ban char-broiled meat than smoking.

CB>  Why, does anyone claim a health risk to those sitting next 
CB>  to people who are eating char-broiled meat?

     It has been known since the early 70s that partially burned 
proteins and fats are carcinogenic.  The first warning was issued 
about BBQing around 1971 or so.  And they are some of the worst 
also and much worse than any claims about tobacco smoke.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Truth:  Get it fresh or not at all.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1401)
To:      Alan Hess                              17 Feb 95 21:38:00
Subject: ORIGIN OF HUMAN RIGHTS                 

                   The Origin of Human Rights
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <2/17>

     We hold that our rights are not granted by our government or
by any agency.  The US Constitution holds we are endowed by our
Creator with specific rights.  That wasn't too bad a guess in
those days.
     Today we can do better.  It is not that we are greater
thinkers than the founders.  Rather it is that we have the
benefit of two centuries of science, particularly anthropology
and animal behavior.  Our "rights" are what any social animal
enjoys under ideal conditions within its own social group.
     Every nature show on TV on social animals, lions,
chimpanzees, even ants, makes the obligatory point of the
similarity to human society.  And there the origin of our rights
is staring us in the face.  What we consider rights is the
necessary behavior of social animals.  Where do we get freedom of
speech?  Did you ever see even the noisiest chimp being told to
shut up?
     Facetious of course but noises in a social group are
pervasive if the species can make noises.  But we have to go into
anthropology, human origins, to get to most of our rights as they
are a bit too advanced to be easily seen in animal terms.
     Do we have the right to keep and bear arms?  We have every
evidence going back as far as Australopithecus that pre-humans
made and used weapons not only for hunting but upon each other.
But if we observe the behavior of other social species we see
aggression within a group to be rare but aggression between groups
to be an equal opportunity activity for all members of the group.
This same as we see violent crime and war in our own societies.
     Another intra-group characteristic is that we rarely
conceive of enforcing our laws within another society (which is
what making our drug laws extend outside our borders so
exceptional.)  Or in primitive cultures, social customs are
unique are not imposed upon other groups but we do expect "when
in Rome do as the Romans do" from visitors and as guests.
     I can go through most of the Bill Of Rights and find
parallels that are common in most primitive cultures.  And in
these primitive cultures and in our knowledge of pre-humans no
one suggests they had a "government" to give them rights that are
like what we have today.  Nor, prior to Neanderthal nor Cro-Magnon
do we suppose they had a god to believe endowed them with these
rights.  (And, of course if they did, it was a false god but that
is another article.)
     If we look across modern and primitive cultures we find
varying taboos upon particular types of speech.  If we were to
add all the taboos together there would still be a lot to talk
about.  If we create a culture such as ours where the only
prohibitions are based upon other issues such as using speech to
deliberately and directly harm others (shouting fire in a crowded
theater, willful fraud, perjury) we can see that free speech is a
common characteristic of all cultures save for those with
particular taboos against particular forms of speech.
     There are greater similarities than something so human as
speech.  It may be impossible to find a society where theft or
murder is not prohibited.  And equally difficult to find a
society where there is not some form of trial and punishment.
The very idea of an unfair trial rankles us save as individuals
we feel there should be exceptions for some people and for some
types of crimes.  That we have created an ideal society, taking
out all of the exceptions and making trials fair to everyone.
That we know we still have and trying to find a solution to the
disparity between OJ's and the Pauper's trial is not unique to
the US but rather a fact of life that our human concept fair does
not appear to be able to alter.
     Our rights come from our nature as both a social species and
from our unique human ancestry.  We were not endowed with them
one fine afternoon but rather we spent many hundreds of thousands
on to millions of years evolving them.  We can see similarities
to them in other social species, in primitive tribes and across
cultures today.  This is the way we are.  We have simply
idealized these rights in the US and most of that idealization is
quite recent.  And most of this idealization is quite recent.
     In the 1870s or 1880s there was a Supreme Court decision
holding that the mayor of a township had as much authority over
the speech permitted in his township as did a man in his own
home. This was over some issue of art.  It was not until the late
1940s that the same court decided it knew pornography when it saw
it and barely ten years ago that it discovered the "out" of
community standards determining the difference between art and
pornography.
     This means the near absolute "rights" we view as having
today should not be taken as having existed in concept from the
beginning of the country.  When we get down to specifics we have
to be much more narrow in our concepts.  As always, it is easy to
miss the forest for the trees.
     Our rights are the recognition of our intrinsic nature that
took hundreds of thousands of years to develop.  They came from
something much more interesting than a god.  Our rights have a
basis in the entire world we live in and are part of it.  They
are certainly not the granted by any government.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1402)
To:      All                                    17 Feb 95 21:38:00
Subject: ORIGIN OF HUMAN RIGHTS                 

                   The Origin of Human Rights
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <2/17>

     We hold that our rights are not granted by our government or
by any agency.  The US Constitution holds we are endowed by our
Creator with specific rights.  That wasn't too bad a guess in
those days.
     Today we can do better.  It is not that we are greater
thinkers than the founders.  Rather it is that we have the
benefit of two centuries of science, particularly anthropology
and animal behavior.  Our "rights" are what any social animal
enjoys under ideal conditions within its own social group.
     Every nature show on TV on social animals, lions,
chimpanzees, even ants, makes the obligatory point of the
similarity to human society.  And there the origin of our rights
is staring us in the face.  What we consider rights is the
necessary behavior of social animals.  Where do we get freedom of
speech?  Did you ever see even the noisiest chimp being told to
shut up?
     Facetious of course but noises in a social group are
pervasive if the species can make noises.  But we have to go into
anthropology, human origins, to get to most of our rights as they
are a bit too advanced to be easily seen in animal terms.
     Do we have the right to keep and bear arms?  We have every
evidence going back as far as Australopithecus that pre-humans
made and used weapons not only for hunting but upon each other.
But if we observe the behavior of other social species we see
aggression within a group to be rare but aggression between groups
to be an equal opportunity activity for all members of the group.
This same as we see violent crime and war in our own societies.
     Another intra-group characteristic is that we rarely
conceive of enforcing our laws within another society (which is
what making our drug laws extend outside our borders so
exceptional.)  Or in primitive cultures, social customs are
unique are not imposed upon other groups but we do expect "when
in Rome do as the Romans do" from visitors and as guests.
     I can go through most of the Bill Of Rights and find
parallels that are common in most primitive cultures.  And in
these primitive cultures and in our knowledge of pre-humans no
one suggests they had a "government" to give them rights that are
like what we have today.  Nor, prior to Neanderthal nor Cro-Magnon
do we suppose they had a god to believe endowed them with these
rights.  (And, of course if they did, it was a false god but that
is another article.)
     If we look across modern and primitive cultures we find
varying taboos upon particular types of speech.  If we were to
add all the taboos together there would still be a lot to talk
about.  If we create a culture such as ours where the only
prohibitions are based upon other issues such as using speech to
deliberately and directly harm others (shouting fire in a crowded
theater, willful fraud, perjury) we can see that free speech is a
common characteristic of all cultures save for those with
particular taboos against particular forms of speech.
     There are greater similarities than something so human as
speech.  It may be impossible to find a society where theft or
murder is not prohibited.  And equally difficult to find a
society where there is not some form of trial and punishment.
The very idea of an unfair trial rankles us save as individuals
we feel there should be exceptions for some people and for some
types of crimes.  That we have created an ideal society, taking
out all of the exceptions and making trials fair to everyone.
That we know we still have and trying to find a solution to the
disparity between OJ's and the Pauper's trial is not unique to
the US but rather a fact of life that our human concept fair does
not appear to be able to alter.
     Our rights come from our nature as both a social species and
from our unique human ancestry.  We were not endowed with them
one fine afternoon but rather we spent many hundreds of thousands
on to millions of years evolving them.  We can see similarities
to them in other social species, in primitive tribes and across
cultures today.  This is the way we are.  We have simply
idealized these rights in the US and most of that idealization is
quite recent.  And most of this idealization is quite recent.
     In the 1870s or 1880s there was a Supreme Court decision
holding that the mayor of a township had as much authority over
the speech permitted in his township as did a man in his own
home. This was over some issue of art.  It was not until the late
1940s that the same court decided it knew pornography when it saw
it and barely ten years ago that it discovered the "out" of
community standards determining the difference between art and
pornography.
     This means the near absolute "rights" we view as having
today should not be taken as having existed in concept from the
beginning of the country.  When we get down to specifics we have
to be much more narrow in our concepts.  As always, it is easy to
miss the forest for the trees.
     Our rights are the recognition of our intrinsic nature that
took hundreds of thousands of years to develop.  They came from
something much more interesting than a god.  Our rights have a
basis in the entire world we live in and are part of it.  They
are certainly not the granted by any government.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1403)
To:      Peter Bradie                           17 Feb 95 21:42:00
Subject: AUSCHWITZ                              

PB>  MG>  Jews came to this country because it does not happen here.  
PB>  MG>  There are some words on the Statue of Liberty to the effect 
PB>  MG>  that this country takes in people like that.  Fine.  You 
PB>  MG>  are here.  You are safe now.  Try to get over your paranoia.  
PB>  MG>  The war is over.

PB>  Stalin's collectivization, Mao's Great Leap Forward, Pol 
PB>  Pot and the Cambodian Killing Fields, the Hutus and Tutsis 
PB>  in Rwanda are all excellent examples of mass murder.  Nazi 
PB>  Germany was unique in that they mechanized extermination.  
PB>  And that monstrous approach makes all the difference.


     Sounds like a Luddite objection.  

     "We murder the old fashioned way, by hand."  


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1404)
To:      Michael Pilon                          17 Feb 95 21:45:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUN CONFISCA                  

MP>  MG>  In other words it is the policy of Canada to make it more 
MP>  MG>  difficult for people to engage in certain lifestyles? '

MP> Is owning a gun a lifestyle ...? Are you gay..no I carry guns  !

     What carry?  Sounds like the Canadian image of the US.  

MP>  MG>  I do not  see that the purpose of any government save for a 
MP>  MG>  criminal life style.

MP> ???????

     Making it illegal to own guns makes gun owners into 
criminals when that is their only "crime."  It creates criminals.  
A few years back DC made some 70,000 people criminals overnight 
by simply making guns illegal.  Among the most famous criminals 
are Carl Rowan and the late Vincent Foster.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1405)
To:      Andy Von Busse                         17 Feb 95 21:53:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUN CONFISCATION              

AB>  Actually, Matt, we are quite organized.  Letter writing, as 
AB>  you know is only one strategy.  We are quite capable and do 
AB>  have other resources, including information that we get 
AB>  from friends inside the various police agencies, stacking 
AB>  delegate meetings in Liberal ridings, effectively lobbying 
AB>  provincial cabinet ministers who administer the laws, etc.  
AB>  etc.

     I got the idea you were a new organization responding the 
latest gun grab.  Sorry about that.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1406)
To:      Ken Newell                             17 Feb 95 21:56:00
Subject: CANADIANS                              

KN>  Don't give me Cold War this and Cold War that! 

     I did not expect you to want to hear about where your money 
was not going instead of where is should have been going.

Who has the 
KN>  #1 rated research labs for fighter pilots and deep sea 
KN>  diving? 

     The US of course although I expect the opinion could vary 
upon who is doing the rating.

Who has most of its troops dedicated to 
KN>  peacekeeping operations around the world?  

     I have already given credit to Canada for supplying cannon 
fodder to the UN.  But when it gets serious, like Iraq, I didn't 
see Canada getting any particular attention.

Who regularly 
KN>  pays its membership dues to the UN?  

     Eternal cold does rot the mind.

What country has 
KN>  13,000 names on a black wall in Washington DC of citizens 
KN>  who fought in someone else's war?  

     I have noted Canadians do fight for nations that support 
their military.  They can't get much but contempt in their own 
country.

Who is a main supplier 
KN>  of food aid to third world countries? 

     And?

What country 
KN>  continuously assists the US in research and development?  

     I am quite familiar with the "assistance" in military R&D.  
That is where I learned about how poorly Canada treats its 
military

KN>  What country has never lost a war?

     Rwanda.

KN>  As for a debt problem, yes we have one but ask yourself 
KN>  these questions - How many US landmarks are owned by the 
KN>  US? What country is in last place as far as educational 
KN>  concerns go?  What country has the lowest rated health care 
KN>  system in Western society?  What country has the highest 
KN>  crime rate in the world?  Answer a few of these questions 
KN>  then we'll talk!

     Those are other things we could not spend money on while you 
folks indulged yourself in social programs while hiding under the 
US nuclear umbrella.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1407)
To:      Michael Pilon                          17 Feb 95 22:17:00
Subject: DOLE ON LETTERMAN                      

MP>  In the short time I saw him I was impressed.  He listened 
MP>  was quick and concise.
MP> 
MP>  It will be the first interesting President since Kennedy ( 
MP>  from the perspective of an outsider)

     And then what Clinton manages to veto this session will be 
passed.  Not a bad future -- from more than a spectator.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1408)
To:      Bob Klahn                              17 Feb 95 22:22:00
Subject: HORIUCHI'S EDUCATION                   

BK>   The other reply also denys that Weaver's son killed a govt 
BK>   agent.  Now, if Weaver's supporters can't even tell the 
BK>   same story, how can those of us not heavily involved keep 
BK>   up with it?

     The "other" reply pointed out a legal theory introduced in 
the summation to the jury at the trial by the defense attorney in 
response to the failure of the prosecution to connect the boy's 
gun with the fatal bullet.  Perhaps that failure was a technical 
oversight by the prosecution but it was not made in the trial.

BK>  JB>  In fact, they had apparently engaged in numerous trespass 
BK>  JB>  missions over the previous months onto Weaver land, WITH NO 
BK>  JB>  INTENTION OF ARRESTING

BK>  It's called investigation. You do that before an arrest.

     It requires a warrant or permission to enter a person's 
property else it is criminal trespass.

BK>   If they just went in and started shooting you would have a 
BK>   point.  

     They did go in shooting.  The first death was an encounter 
with a man who had shot his dog.  The boy is presumed to have 
returned fire but again that was not demonstrated in court.  

BK>   Considering that everything I have posted on this has been 
BK>   based on published reports, and what I have read posted by 
BK>   Weaver's supporters, your accusations of phony assumptions 
BK>   and wacky fantasies show you to be the fanatic.

     Then you need to deal with them rather than try to use a 
difference in record as to who shot the marshall to avoid the 
issue that the marshal shot the boy AND had shot the dog first.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1409)
To:      Alec Grynspan                          17 Feb 95 22:30:00
Subject: HORIUCHI'S EDUCATION                   Rec'd 

AG>  BK>> Bob Klahn

AG>  JB> Seig Heil, Bob!  Are those jack-boots getting too tight?

AG> Cut this crap - now!

AG> ++GMAIL 1.3++ ***** DEBATE CO-MODERATOR *******

     Oh my moderator...


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1410)
To:      Kurt Cason                             17 Feb 95 22:31:00
Subject: HORIUCHI'S EDUCATION                   

KC>  Vicki Weaver was NOT in a chair behind Kevin Harris.  She 
KC>  was standing in the doorway holding her 10-month-old 
KC>  daughter in her arms when LH's bullet tore into her face, 
KC>  blew through her jaw, and severed her carotid artery.  From 
KC>  200 yards away that was not an "acccidental" shot...

     Lets see, 600 feet away.  That is about 1/3 of a second 
bullet flight time.  And the man was a moving target.  Unless a 
really good sniper is better than I ever imagined, he a bead on a 
fixed target.  Given the man was running he could not have taken 
a bead on the doorway and expect to hit a man entering it on the 
run.  This eliminates the possibility she "popped it open" and 
got herself in the line of fire.

     For some reason he was either aiming at the door or at her.  
There are no two ways about it.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1411)
To:      Karl Ward                              17 Feb 95 22:59:00
Subject: RELIGION BELL AND SC                   

KW> MG>     One of the points made in BC is that the complexity of law
KW> MG>and proper behavior is not something everyone can grasp.  The OT,
KW> MG>NT, Koran, a few other books do present such matters in about the
KW> MG>simplest form possible.  The golden rule is a trite saying unless
KW>   ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
KW> This is doubtful, anyway.

KW> MG>it can be attached to something of merit such as a god.

KW> Or maybe "good."  :)

     What is good?  And at what point on the bell curve does a 
person have to be to convey this idea?  Abstract good?  Rather 
the threat of some sort of eternal punishment does get through to 
most everyone.  

KW> MG>      The value of teaching religion in school is to get 
KW> MG> through to everyone the basics of what is needed to live in 
KW> MG> our society.  The person does not have to be religious nor 
KW> MG> need there be any requirement to believe anything in it for 
KW> MG> anyone.  For those who are not up to dealing with the 
KW> MG> complexities of law and custom it is desirable to get 
KW> MG> something through to them that just might help get the crime 
KW> MG> and illegitimacy rates down among other benefits.

KW>  You appear to be implying that religion is for the simple 
KW>  minded who can't "get" the law.  Why not teach compassion 
KW>  instead?  

     Again, a rather advanced concept and is generally considered 
an emotion rather than a concept.  I have no idea how to teach 
emotions.

Or hit them on the head and make them understand 
KW>  what pain feels like and that to casue pain in others is a 
KW>  no no?   To teach the basics of our Society via religion is 
KW>  to overlook how religion IS a soietal set of standards and 
KW>  EACH RELIGION can be very different in it's application, 
KW>  foundation, and follow through.  

     The differences between religions are notable by their 
exceptions rather than their commonalities.  And to overlook what 
you suggest is something children should not be told.  Otherwise 
you are teaching it is arbitrary and the values of the gang in 
the street are just as good.

KW>  You appeared to be saying the the value of human life is 
KW>  what you wanted taught.  Oh, well, heck, that's simple, 
KW>  TEACH IT; 

     We do not know how to teach it in general and the brighter 
people get the less they accept the generality.

it is not strictly attached to religion, it is in 
KW>  philosophy, medicine, history (if you look hard enough), 

     Which is the point.  Those under 100 are unlikely to look 
for anything.  What do we do about them?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1412)
To:      Karl Ward                              17 Feb 95 23:14:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

KW> MG>     And were they issued in the cattle cars?

KW> MG>     Why a number rather than a simple "J" or some such?

KW> MG>     Why a tattoo rather than a brand?

KW> MG>     I think these questions are obvious in their implications.

KW>  They aren't so obvious to me.  Do you know the answers?  I 
KW>  would be fascinated to hear.  

     As the result of having any tatooed number was the same, why 
bother with more than a J?  Or an X for that matter.  It has been 
suggested a brand might cause an infection?  Why care?

My own hazarded guess about 
KW>  why numbers rather than a "J" is that then you can identify 
KW>  the individual cross referenced to his/her number when 
KW>  issued.  

     Why would they care?  To make certain they did not execute 
the wrong person?

But I've never thought, actually about the "why's" 
KW>  of this particular piece of the inhumanity.

     Inquiring into anything is always of interest.     


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+++■■■■■ r_950223 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1771)
To:      Loralie Freeman                        18 Feb 95 20:46:00
Subject: CANADIANS                              

LF> MG>     First off, Canada contributed ZERO to the Cold War.

LF> Does the name Gerald Bull mean anything to you?

     You mean it was the Canadian government that was backing him 
all those years?

LF> MG>      Second, solely due to the indulgence in its socialist 
LF> MG> system and without national defense playing a significant 
LF> MG> role, Canada has accumulated a per person national and 
LF> MG> provincial debt that surpasses the US.

LF>  The 'Socialist' goverment of The Province of Saskatchewan 
LF>  is expected to pass down a balanced budget within the next 
LF>  couple of weeks.

     It will be interesting to hear what they really come up 
with.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1772)
To:      Pete Bucy                              18 Feb 95 20:48:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

PB>   The "Holocaust" is only special because there are so many 
PB>  survivors, and because it was so well documented.  I'm 
PB>  certain that if the technology had existed in earlier times 
PB>  that the fall of Troy or the destruction of Rome would be 
PB>  easily as revolting to the tv viewer.

     Revolting?  There are only so many times you can look at 
starving people and emaciated bodies and still be moved.  There 
are only so many times the same story can be repeated before one 
is no longer impressed.  It is hard to imagine any adult being 
"revolted" any longer.  

     BTW:

PB> MG>      Interestingly what we have not learned is that other 
PB> MG> than the ad copy, the holocaust was nothing special.   It is 
PB> MG> hard to imagine a means of assessing it that makes it the 
PB> MG> "largest" or "worst" anything.  It is only history and not a 
PB> MG> very remarkable history at that.

PB>   Matt, what is commonly referred to in contemporary history 
PB>  as "The Holocaust," 

     I certainly hope this was not an insistence upon reverential 
capitalization.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1776)
To:      Frank Palmer                           20 Feb 95 01:32:00
Subject: CHAOS IS WORSE THAN Y 1/2              

FP>  MG>  A truly random event can not be known by definition 
FP>  MG>  obviously.  And we have found truly random event.  That is 
FP>  MG>  the basis for the Shroedinger's Cat problem.  There are 
FP>  MG>  things intrinsic to our universe that we can not know.  
FP>  MG>  What makes it pervasive is that it includes all forms of 
FP>  MG>  radiation including light.  That light can generally be 
FP>  MG>  taken as an aggregate and that is almost always works the 
FP>  MG>  same way is what we perceive.

FP>  Physical reality, on the sub-atomic level, has many pairs 
FP>  which we can only know one of at a time.  That is subtly 
FP>  different from saying we can't know.  Which, again, is 
FP>  different from saying that we cannot know the macroscopic 
FP>  results.

     We can not know in the sense of predicting.  After the fact 
we can know anything we wish.  The point being that this 
inability to predict is the inroad of unpredictability into our 
apparently ordered universe.  Once it is present, it is only a 
matter or either degree or time before that which appears 
predictable in the short term or macro sense simply does 
something that is not predictable.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1777)
To:      Paul Smith                             20 Feb 95 01:53:00
Subject: TOBACCO INDUSTRY                       

PS> MG>      Speaking of the restaurant industry, it would be more 
PS> MG>  rational to ban char-broiled meat than smoking.

PS>  Another smokescreen Matt.  You never give up do you?
PS> 
PS>  You can certainly make a case against char-broiled meat.  
PS>  If you feel strongly about it, go do something about it; or 
PS>  auto pollution; or acid rain producers; or whatever.  But 
PS>  don't use it to try to hide the reality of the dangers of 
PS>  environmental tobacco smoke.

     When you get around to quantifying the dangers we will have 
something to talk about.  When there is a measurement of it we 
will have something to talk about.  As long as were are talking 
statistical fantasies, one is as good as another.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1782)
To:      All                                    20 Feb 95 15:36:00
Subject: RUMORS OF WAR                          

                          Rumors of War
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1995 

     The latest rumor, probably unfounded is that the reason the
BATF has canceled all leave for it members for the end of March
is that raids are planned on the state citizen militias.  I have
said there was no reason to provoke a confrontation with the
government as the government would cause the provocation.
If this is true, it will be one such provocation.
     It is clear that these militias have broken no laws.  Yet,
presumably, Waco style, shoot first raids are planned for them.
Yes, this rogue agency is most likely planning to do it again.
And why should they not?  They got away with it in Waco.
     This is how just revolutions begin, not by deliberate
actions of revolutionaries, but by the government giving the
citizenry cause to resist the government.  The colonials did not
start attempting to obtain independence.  They started trying to
correct what they perceived as injustice.  The revolution was
precipitated by the over-reactions of the government.
     And if these raids should occur they will indeed be an
over-reaction.  If in fact there are state laws against citizen
militias then it is up to the states to enforce those laws.  If
the states feel their police are incapable of enforcing those
laws then there are the state national guards.
     The only pretext for the BATF is the reasonable suspicion,
duly sworn before a magistrate or judge, that individual militia
members have weapons that are in violation of federal law.  This
is something that was not done in Waco in 1992 in that it omitted
any reference to a reasonable suspicion of illegal weapons.
     As the BATF has never demonstrated an interest in peaceful
warrant service it is guaranteed that people are going to die
should raids occur.  Given the lessons of Waco, the response to
the BATF will be to fight to the death rather than die by fire.
It will be surprising if many "hostage" situations do not arise
again.
     The difference this time is that there are more present
militia than there are BATF agents.  There are ten times more
now wavering on the edge of joining a militia, thinking things
are not bad enough yet.  Should these raids occur, they will be
decided.
     At that point the question will be if those wavering will
come to the aid of the besieged and arrested.  Of course the
government would respond and most likely win by sending in
regular troops.  The consequences of this would be profound.
     This would have to lead to serious loss of life, resulting
in family and friends turning against the government.  It will
have to result in a confiscation of guns with the expected house
to house searches under the authority of one or more executive
orders.  Martial law will certainly be declared in some places if
not entire states.
     And in the worst case, why?  Because the just might really
be some people with illegal weapons that would be directed
towards exactly this kind of government action.  
     Of course this is all speculation.  It is unlikely the BATF
is planning raids on these militias.  It is most likely the
cancellation of leave is a rumor.
     I write to point out how easy it is for the government to
provoke a revolution.  These events I hypothesize probably would
not cause a revolution in themselves.  But rather than causing
fear and discouraging the future formation of militias it would
cause larger ones to be formed underground.
     It is this kind of fatal mis-reading of the reaction of a
free people that is the one constant government failing.  This is
not surprising.  When all a government has are military and
paramilitary agencies everyone looks like an enemy.
     Additionally governments do not believe they can permit the
existence of any internal organization that might potentially be
a threat.  But in responding to the public non-threats, after all
are public, they create an underground threat that learns from
the mistakes of the previous being uncovered and become
increasingly hard to find.  At some point the underground groups
begin initiating action instead of defending themselves.  Thus
the revolution is under way all because of the violent actions of
the government.
     Can Congress stop it?  No.  It is not the Executive Branch.
     Can Congress afford to be seen as siding with people who
will be portrayed as revolutionaries?  No.
     Can the government negotiate with underground organizations?
No.  It has not diplomatic corp much less the kind of
organization needed.  And governments do not negotiate unless
they have to do so in any event.
     So the revolution need not start with another Waco which is
rather unlikely.  The revolution can start with its actions
against the response to Waco.  Hang in there folks.  If these are
not rumors then we are in for a very interesting next few years.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, Bus. 813-969-0362



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1853)
To:      Peter Bradie                           20 Feb 95 20:51:00
Subject: THE HOLOCAUST                          

PB>  Not quite, Giwer.  The mechanization of extermination was a 
PB>  new low in human history.  While the Hutus and Tutsis 
PB>  managed to kill large numbers of people in a very short 
PB>  time, using fairly primitive tools, they left many bodies 
PB>  about.  The Nazis attempted to handle that problem with 
PB>  reasonably well mechanized crematoria.  That, in and of 
PB>  itself, is revoltingly remarkable.

     This appears to be a Luddite objection, that it would not 
have been so bad if they had not mechanized the process of 
eliminating the bodies.  

     Sorry, I can not see that viewpoint.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * Jesus is coming!  Everyone look saved.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1854)
To:      Alan Hess                              21 Feb 95 00:33:00
Subject: EGYPT VS. FUNDIES                      

AH>  According to the U.S.  Stae Department, the government of 
AH>  Egypt, which is currently battling Islamic fundamentalists, 
AH>  has taken to arresting, torturing, and even killing 
AH>  innocents, claiming them to be either sympathizers or 
AH>  supporters of the radicals.  The Egyptian government is 
AH>  also confiscating property and bulldozing homes of 
AH>  suspected sympathizers and supporters, as well as the homes 
AH>  of families of known radicals.  These actions are no 
AH>  different than those which world opinion rightly condemned 
AH>  Israel for when done against Palestinians.  So where's the 
AH>  world outcry over Egypt's actions?  *adh*

     Give is some play on the evening news and see what happens.



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 * RM 1.3 01261 * A sufficiently advanced person will appear to be god.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1855)
To:      Lester Garrett                         21 Feb 95 00:34:00
Subject: END TIMES, NAAAAH.                     

LG>     NZ>  * OLX 2.1 TD * The Bible - ALL knowledge
LG>     NZ>  contained therein...

LG>  LT> In what chapter do we find geology?

LG> Genesis, it's the 7-day short course.
     
     A 6-day course, heathen.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1856)
To:      Frank Palmer                           21 Feb 95 00:38:00
Subject: FLORIDA MILITIA LEADER                 

FP>  JB>  See my post to Wayne Bertsch on this same subject.  
FP>  JB>  According to Terry Liberty Parker's most recent news item, 
FP>  JB>  the guy was apparently arrested for merely mailing 
FP>  JB>  FIJA-type info to some jurors.

FP>  The previous post was not specific enough, but if he was 
FP>  deliberately sending information to an active jury without 
FP>  going through the court, he was indeed in contempt of 
FP>  court.

     One can only be in contempt of court, in this circumstances, 
if there is a specific court order directed towards him that he 
has violated.  

FP>  If you were on trial, or engaged in a lawsuit, would you 
FP>  like me to address the jurors with statements against you 
FP>  without following the rules of evidence and presenting it 
FP>  in open court?

     Which is completely irrelevant to what was stated.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate - (1857)
To:      Bob Klahn                              21 Feb 95 00:55:00
Subject: HORIUCHI'S EDUCATION                   

BK>  KC>  Kevin Harris was found NOT GUILTY of murder and all other  
BK>  KC>  charges leveled Randy Weaver was found NOT GUILTY of 8 
BK>  KC>  federal felony counts.

BK>  I believe that qualifies as acquitted.

BK>   Your's is one of three replies I received.  All three were 
BK>   from Weaver supporters,

     One is not a Weaver supporter when one condemns the 
government's actions.  

and none of you agree with each 
BK>   other.  I will be willing to consider this when I can get a 
BK>   straight story from a reliable source.

     And until you do have a source you will trust you should be 
honest enough to say you have no opinion on the matter IF you had 
any intention of being consistent.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * The only god is all a real American needs.

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