The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/on-the-holocaust.9407



From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (184)
To:      All                                    11 Jul 94 05:17:10
Subject: Holocaust                              

 *********** Original       To: JAMES WALDRON
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Worldtalk

On 07/09/94 JAMES WALDRON to ALL on Holocaust

JW>  This is fair warning that ALL holocoust DISBELIEVERS are to 
JW>  take their fantasies and whatever other demons they are 
JW>  possesed with to ANY OTHER echo but DO NOT continue to 
JW>  debate the holocaust occurence in WORLDTLK.  If you 
JW>  continue to do so, you will be asked to leave the echo or 
JW>  suffer a link cut.  UNFORTUNATELY, the holocoust DID occur 
JW>  and we don't need idiotic denial morons attesting to a 
JW>  different scenario.  There's been enough suffering 
JW>  already.

     Sir, not to continue it but there has NEVER, EVER been a 
debate as to the occurrence of the holocaust.  Not once as in 
NEVER EVER.  I have so stipulated in dozens of messages.  The 
only discussion has been as to the existence of gas chambers.  
You know that and you will not acknowledge that.

     What do you call a person who makes a claim contrary to 
fact while knowingly doing so?  You do not like that name so you 
have told me. 

     You are making yourself a classic example of those I have 
identified.   

     You are not a moderator, you are a paristan and the only way 
you can silence questioning is to prohibit disbelieve.  You are 
no better than a Nazi.  
     
     I do remark that you have proved my claim that few can 
separate a challenge to gas chambers from the holocaust which did 
occur.
     
     What in the hell are you talking about?  

     NO ONE in this conference EVER denied the Holocaust occurred 
EVER.  

     Everything I have said it true.  I will also take the 
liberty of cross posting this response all over the world.  You 
will of course ban me for telling the truth.  That also I will 
crosspost to the world.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1494)
To:      Hamilton & Co. Flowers                  3 Jul 94 18:08:10
Subject: Inquistion mentality                   

HF>  MG>  Certainly there is no question of the 12 million or so who 
HF>  MG>  died in concentration camps and there still is no question 
HF>  MG>  of it.

HF>  Although I am not Jewish nor extremely educated on this 
HF>  matter, it is only my opinion that this is about the only 
HF>  factual statement in your message.

     It is also about the only statement I make.

HF>  MG>  Then I found a correspondent who was in investigator for 
HF>  MG>  the War Crimes Courts after the war.  His unit accounted 
HF>  MG>  for four executions, two life imprisonments, and a total of 
HF>  MG>  65 years for four others.  He kept his original notes.  His 
HF>  MG>  name is in the Hall of the Righteous in Israel.

HF>  I believe this man probably did not lose any family as did 
HF>  millions of others murders Jews, Poles, and Russians.

     What conceivably does this have to do with the lack of 
evidence for the use of gas chambers?

HF> MG> He may be mistaken but he is certainly the last
HF> MG> person to lie

HF>  We are all capapble of lying and for a variety of reasons.  
HF>  I can not imagine what the purpose of this particular 
HF>  individuals statements were.

HF>  He pointed out that no one was charged with gassing at 
HF>  Nuremberg and thus obviously no one was convicted of 
HF>  gassing anyone.

HF>  If what you say is correct, are we to believe that if your 
HF>  computer turned up missing, but no one was ever charged 
HF>  with stealing it, then a theft never occurred?  Perhaps it 
HF>  would be more factual to say that you lent it out but could 
HF>  not remember who it was to.

     Just what is it you are suggesting here?

HF>  And yet the Russians acquitted him of that charge for lack 
HF>   of evidence.

HF>  Lack of evidence does not constitute lack of a crime

     What is the point of this statement?  Are saying I made such 
a suggestion?  Concentration camps of the type they ran were in 
fact a crime and several were hung for running them.  People died 
in them under rather undescribable conditions.

HF> MG>  It turns out that Lenin ordered the construction of a gas 
HF> MG>  chamber at Auschwitz some years later.  Then and only then 
HF> MG>  were people permitted to view what Lenin ordered to be 
HF> MG>  built.

HF>  Although not as educated on this subject as you seem to be, 
HF>  I read a book some years ago written by Albert Speer, a top 
HF>  level convicted Nazi architect imprisoned in Nuremburg.  He 
HF>  seemed very able to recall his knowledge of the gas 
HF>  chambers and the faces of persons going into them.

     (Correct that Lenin to Stalin.)

     I would have to ask for a more direct citation than that.  
As to his ever visiting one he did not have that kind of 
position.

HF> MG>  This works out to about three people per square foot.  And 
HF> MG>  yet the description of events holds that Nazis in gas masks 
HF> MG>  walked freely through the room pouring out Zyklon-B 
HF> MG>  pellets.

HF>  When the Jews and other prisoners were transported by 
HF>  railcar to various camps, they shoved in with such 
HF>  compression that as persons became too weak to even stand 
HF>  they were held upright by the sheer force of other bodies 
HF>  around them, including the dead.  Persons suffocated in 
HF>  this same fashion, much like what has happened at large 
HF>  sporting events and rock concerts today.

     Try it again.  The density is flat out impossible.  That is 
three per square foot.  Can't be done.  Flat out impossible.  But 
that is the story.  But you do bring up a good point.  Why would 
gas be necessary?  Anoxia would do the job quite nicely.

HF> MG>  holds the room was prepared by covering glass windows with 
HF> MG>  dirt -- some glass.

HF>  Your knowledge of construction is limited also.  When homes 
HF>  are built with cellars, the ground is pushed up around the 
HF>  foundation for added strength and moisture protection.  A 
HF>  small window, even glass, can sustain the pressure of dirt 
HF>  pushed up against it.

     That is hardly the impression one gets from the story.  
Certainly one can always imagine circumstances to save the story.

HF> MG>  I have asked for evidence.  I have presented all of the 
HF> MG>  above and more.

HF>  I do not consider the above to be evidence of anything, 
HF>  only speculation.

     I did not claim it was evidence.  I have merely presented 
the famous story did not occur as it is told.

MG>  The response I have received is, "You are denying the 
MG>  Holocaust." I have been asked how people died and I respond 
MG>  they were  worked to death in conditions of no sanitation 
MG>  and no medication and on starvation level food.

HF>  Are we to assume that the accusations of the prisoners 
HF>  themselves was just some form of mass hysteria.

HF>  That satisfies no one.

HF>  Certainly not me.

     There was only one such accusation by the prisoners.  That 
was at a camp outside of Munich.  They identified three buildings 
where the gassing occurred.  None of them were suitable for it 
and one of them was the office of the Commandant.  

     The stories of gassing grew up years later.  

MG>   In the 20th century I can profess to believe in the deaths 
MG>   of tens of millions but if I question one particular means 
MG>   of death the claim is that I have denied all of the 
MG>   deaths.

HF>  I do not believe that you have denied the deaths, I must 
HF>  say though that your premise that 10s of millions died from 
HF>  lack of food and over work is naive and uneducated.

     You forgot disease.  And we are only talking 12 million in 
the camps probably less as the numbers are being revised downward 
as actual studies are being made.  

     I would have to ask you why you think people would not die 
in large numbers when living under conditions of working every 
waking moment, minimum rations, and no sanitation?  They did not 
exactly have running water.

MG>   Any slightest deviation from accepted dogma, any slightest 
MG>   questioning of one small aspect of dogma is considered the 
MG>   same as denying EVERYTHING.

HF>  You are not making a "slight" deviation on one "small" 
HF>  aspect from the accepted dogma.  Even you must be aware of 
HF>  that.

     I am only noting there is no evidence of this particular 
means of death.

HF>  MG>   Watch the responses to this article if you think there is 
HF>  MG>   a difference.  The responses will give you a concrete 
HF>  MG>   example of the Inquisitional mentality as it exists 
HF>  MG>   today.

HF>  I do not have an "Inquisitional mentality" and you do not 
HF>  have all the facts.  Your statements have been inflammatory 
HF>  by design and inaccurate.

     I have asked for the facts I am missing.  As I pointed out 
no one is able to provide them.  I note you have not either other 
than a vague reference to Speer.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1213)
To:      Sandra Peake                            6 Jul 94 19:47:10
Subject: Inquistion mentality                   

SP> MG> Holocaust.  I believed them.  I had faith.  Certainly there 
SP> MG> was no question of the 12 million or so who died in 
SP> MG> concentration camps and there still is no question of it.

SP>    Why, if so many bodies are missing, is there no question? 
SP>    12 million people gone is about 40% of Canada's current 
SP>    population.  Who were these 12 million?

     The bodies were burned of course.  What do you think the 
crematoria were for?

SP> MG>      Then I found a correspondent who was in investigator 
SP> MG> for the War Crimes Courts after the war.  His unit accounted 
SP> MG> for four executions, two life imprisonments, and a total of 
SP> MG> 65 years for four others.  He kept his original notes.  His 
SP> MG> name is in the Hall of the Righteous in Israel.

SP>    What kind of unit are you referring to - a Kommando, a 
SP>    military death squad, what?

     His unit were investigators of war crimes.  His unit 
investigated the first rumor of gas chambers.

SP> MG>      He pointed out that no one was charged with gassing at 
SP> MG> Nuremberg and thus obviously no one was convicted of gassing 
SP> MG> anyone.

SP>    Which Nuremburg Trial? THe first one? That was to settle 
SP>    blame for the major categories of offenders -  the 
SP>    warmongers.  

     Who are you referring to?  Conducting a war was not a crime.

THe prosecution had to settle for lesser 
SP>    figures, for, with the exception of Goering and Hess, the 
                     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SP>    others were not really major players, not even Admiral 
SP>    Doenitz.  

     Hoess was not charged at Nuremberg.

SP>    countries had their own trials.  To say there were no 
SP>    gassings because the Allied trial of the leaders did not 
SP>    convict anyone is to disregard totally the numerous 
SP>    trials of lesser Nazis, who were convicted and hung, or 
SP>    shot.

     Would you care to list some of those people and the charges?

SP>   He pointed out the Rudolph Hoess, the notorious
SP> MG> Commandant of Auschwitz was never arrested but, after he 
SP> MG> surrendered, was kept under house surveillance.  He was 
SP> MG> never charged at Nuremberg.

SP>     Not at the Allied War Crimes trial held in 1945-46 with 
SP>     the 4 Allied prosecutors.  They were not after small 
SP>     potatoes like him - they'd have rejoiced to get their 
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SP>     hands on the hitherto unknown called Eichmann, who 
SP>     eluded capture for 15 years.  Hoess was under house 
SP>     arrest, which is a valid arrest.

     Consider the two parts I underlined.  Or did you really mean 
Hess vice Hoess?

SP>  MG>     After his testimony against his
SP>   superiors at Nuremberg he MG>was arrested and turned over to the
SP>   Russians at the request of MG>General Rudenko and charged with gassing
SP>   Russian citizens.  After MG>a two day trial he was acquitted of those
SP>   charges for failure of MG>the prosecution to produce evidence there
SP>   was any gassing.  He MG>was later tried on charges of crimes against
SP>   the Russian people MG>and hung. MG>     This was the key to the issue.

SP>    I believe he was tried on crimes against the POLISH 
SP>    people and that's why he was hung at Auschwitz.  

     Actually against the Russian people but the trial was held 
in Poland.  Seems some Russians had been shipped there.

SP>    Here was a man purported to MG>have written a book 
SP>    between the time of his surrender in 1946 and MG>his 
SP>    execution in 1947.  That book, Commandant of Auschwitz, 
SP>    MG>amounts to a full confession of gassing.  And yet the 
SP>    Russians MG>acquitted him of that charge for lack of 
SP>    evidence.  MG>     Not even asking when he had time to 
SP>    write this book why MG>would not such a confession lead 
SP>    to a conviction on exactly those MG>charges?
SP> 
SP>     That would seem reasonable - if it were published before 
SP>     the trial's end.  However, doomed men have written 
SP>     confessional treatises before now, and these stories 
SP>     have turned up only after their deaths.  I have not read 
SP>     this book; so cannot comment on its contents.

     What does publication have to do with it?  It was a 
manuscript before it was a book.  Where could he have hidden it?  
It would have been in the hands of the Russians no farther away 
than his jail cell.

SP>  It is obvious it did not exist at the time and what
SP>   has MG>been published is a forgery.

SP>    That's a leap of faith.  Hidden works can certainly exist 
SP>    w/o being published for some time.  Happens frequently.  
SP>    Family and friends smuggle out the text, and publish it 
SP>    posthumusly.

     I read the book way to long ago to remember its contents 
clearly but I remember no such story.  In fact I do not remember 
how its publication 12 years after the fact was explained.

SP>    THere were cremtoria at all the camps, hundreds of them, 
SP>    all spread out under the umbrella of 19 major camps.  
SP>    (Auschwitz consisted of 4 major camps, all separate, 
SP>    several miles apart.) However, not all of them had gas 
SP>    chambers by any means, and most of those that did used 
SP>    them for delousing.  None of the four death camps was 
SP>    located on German soil; so I'd doubt those reporters' 
SP>    testimony also.

     Of course there were crematoria.  What point are you trying 
to make with that?  

SP>    But when Birkenau was added to Auschwitz, it had one 
SP>    function.  To kill and dispose of as many prisoners as 
SP>    possible, and as many Jews as possible.  The railroad 
SP>    siding came right to the gas chambers.  At that point, 
SP>    doctors separated healthy male prisoners (occasionally 
SP>    some females for work at Ravensbruck , another sub-camp 
SP>    at Auschwitz) and marched them off to work details.  The 
SP>    rest were taken to the "showers, to be deloused." THese 
SP>    huge buildings were indeed, capable of handling 700 
SP>    people at once.  THe Zyklon-B was delivered through 
SP>    "shower heads" installed in the ceiling, along with dummy 
SP>    shower heads.  And there were 4 of these giant chambers!

     It is an interesting story but there is on support for it.  
First Zyklon-B is liquid hydrogen cyanide soaked into 
kaolinacious earth and then compressed into pellets described as 
blue and pea sized.  That does not come out of shower heads.  

     The 700 at once part comes from the story of the first 
experimental use of Zyklon-B where they were supposed to have 
been packed in 30 to the square meter -- impossible on the face 
of it.

SP>   However, the Russians refused access to
SP> MG> Auschwitz-Birkenau.  And it is noted their own court had 
SP> MG> thrown out these reports in the Hoess trial.  Thus the 
SP> MG> evidence from Auschwitz is not credible.  MG>

SP>     I'd like to see the charges , the transcripts, and the 
SP>     jurists' reasoning.  THere are (were) enough survivors of 
SP>     Auschwitz, and a few from Birkenau, that eyewitness 
SP>     testimony may not be so lightly tossed aside.

     So would I but then I do not read Russian.  As to eye 
witnesses to gassing they didn't start showing up until years 
later.  Even Wiesel's first book does not mention gas chambers.

SP>     In view of the fact that the Nazis blew up the gas 
SP>     chambers and crematoria at Birkenau in the late fall of 
SP>     1944, their current existence would be entirely 
SP>     questionable.  

     The crematoria were left standing and were in use until 
liberation.  As for blowing up gas chambers, what good would that 
do?  Blowing up a building doesn't do more than make a mess of 
it.  What it was would be a simple forensic matter to 
reconstruct.  In fact given all the real life experts in blown up 
buildings around during the war there should have been dozens of 
people capable of doing so in the group that liberated the camp.  

ANd so is the "evidence" of those who 
SP>     purported to point out the chambers as existing after 
SP>     the war.  Now, if they pointed out where the gas chambers 
SP>     had been...that is something entirely different.  Nor 
SP>     could the equipments' existence be verified by 
SP>     examination of the site, as they were destroyed and 
SP>     dismantled months before the war's end.

     There is no evidence of any order to construct or dismantle 
any gas chambers yet there is plenty of evidence of the 
construction and shipping and assembly of the crematoria. 

=====

     It appears to me you hold crematoria are evidence of gas 
chambers.  They are evidence of nothing but a lot of bodies do 
dispose of.  And need indicate no more than deaths from disease 
and starvation.  It is not as though they had running water or 
toilets.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1217)
To:      Sandra Peake                            6 Jul 94 20:30:10
Subject: Inquistion mentality                   

SP>  MG>
SP> This is the famous room, the first gas chamber described in
SP> MG>Kommandant of Auschwitz.  In the book it was a spontaneous
SP> MG>experiment carried out hardly a month after the infamous Wannasee
SP> MG>Conference is supposed to have ordered the method used.  At this
SP> MG>point in my reconsideration of events I was reviewing some
SP> MG>material from people who were already skeptics of gassing. MG>     It
SP> turns out this was a rather small room and yet the MG>description is of
SP> at least 700 people being stuffed into it.

SP>    As there were numerous camps at which gassings occurred, 
SP>    and as there were both preliminary trials before the bugs 
SP>    got worked out, and then the actual working apparatus, 
SP>    some witnesses' testimony has gotten confused with other 
SP>    testimony, and the incompatibilities seized on to "prove" 
SP>    no gas chambers therefore existed.  It wasn't until I 
SP>    divided experimental early models from the later ones, 
SP>    and looked at the camps separately, that the differences 
SP>    got resolved in my mind.  Not every method was practiced 
SP>    at every camp.

     The above story is flatly impossible yet it is the classic 
first use.  It is also given as an invention at Auschwitz yet the 
Wannasee conference was supposed to have have been held a couple 
months earlier.

SP>    Therefore, to say that such-and-such a procedure was 
SP>    followed at Auchwitz-Birkenau has no relevance on what 
SP>    took place at Treblinka or Dachau.  Small wonder attempts 
SP>    to extrapolate a single working procedure from the 
SP>    different areas results in inconsistencies, upon which 
SP>    deniers of the Holocaust gleefully fasten.

     Then there was no Wannasee Conference to have organized 
everything and standardized the procedures.  That knocks another 
big hole into the story.

SP>    policy.  Because so many camps had crematoria for disposal 
SP>    of dangerous waste, including diseased bodies, does not 
SP>    mean that healthy men, women and children weren't killed 
SP>    and cremated at the death camps.

     Save you have still presented of evidence of gas chambers.

SP>   I  have never seen this mentioned as a method. 

     It is in the Holocaust FAQ on the internet.

THere were covered
SP>   slots in some doors, much like dispensing vents on washing machines,
SP>   through which the pellets could be dropped, in earlier models. THe
SP>   Auschwitz later ones had the gas dispensed through the ceiling.

     It was still pellets unless you can name a different gas 
that was used.  

SP>   It also MG>holds the room was prepared by
SP> covering glass windows with dirt MG>-- some glass. MG>     On cursory
SP> inspection the story is incredible.  Yet this is MG>the story.  And if
SP> one asks for better evidence?

SP>    I have read about viewing ports.  Why is this incredible? 
SP>    Surely the murderers would want to be able to tell when 
SP>    all were dead and to shut off the gas; so as to expedite 
SP>    disposal.  Seems reasonable to me.

     This is still the story of the first one.  It was supposed 
to be Zyklon-B thrown on the floor by men in gas masks causally 
walking through such a packed room.

SP>   This is where MG>the heresy comes in.  MG> I have asked for 
SP>  evidence.  I have presented all of the MG>above and more.  
SP>  The response I have received is, "You are MG>denying the 
SP>  Holocaust." MG>     I have been asked how people died and I 
SP>  respond they were MG>worked to death in conditions of no 
SP>  sanitation and no medication MG>and on starvation level 
SP>  food.  That satisfies no one.

SP>    But many thousands did.  Just in Belsen alone, 30,000 
SP>    people died of severe malnutrition and typhus (which was 
SP>    exacerbated by starvation) the week they were liberated.  
SP>    And there were thousands upon thousands of corpses lying 
SP>    about the camp when the Allies got to it.  Yet the camp 
SP>    bakery just down the road had tons of supplies, and the 
SP>    capacity to turn out 60,000 loaves of bread daily.  THose 
SP>    supplies, and potential bread, were withheld deliberately 
SP>    from the starving by the Nazis and guards in charge of 
SP>    the camp.

     What does this have to do with gas chambers?

SP> I have MG> been plication that a quick death by gassing is worse 
SP> I have MG> MG>than a from disease and starvation.

SP>    Give me the choice; I know which I'd choose.  (As if 
SP>    prisoners had any choice!)

     Suggest that a murder be executed by starvation and you will 
be told which is worse.     

SP> MG>     I have have dozens of
SP>  people literally refuse to respond to MG>my requests 
SP>  because they know the truth.  When I ask them why MG>they 
SP>  will not post the evidence of that truth they refuse to 
SP>  MG>respond.

SP>    Some people never want to hear another word about 
SP>    something that destroyed their souls.  

     Nonsense.  These are the same people who will say Israel can 
do no wrong because of the Holocaust.  Most were not even born 
until after the war.  

Others are tired of 
SP>    fighting the same battles over and over again.  Many have 
SP>    died.  But I asked my Polish friend, who spent 5 1/2 years 
SP>    in POW camps.  He was never in a death camp.  But he knows 
SP>    the truth.  And now, second-hand, so do I.

     If he was never at such a camp how did he know there were 
gas chambers?  

SP>  MG>     Have I denied the
SP> Holocaust in anything of the above?  Yet MG>almost every response I have
SP> received has been a claim that I MG>have denied there was any massive
SP> death of Jews regardless of the MG>stipulation I have made up front.

SP>    Only about half of the eleven million who died were Jews.  
SP>    Poland considered hers Polish citizens, and did not 
SP>    further distinguish them on racial or religious 
SP>    designation.  But over 3 million of those Poles were Jews.  
SP>    That's pretty massive in anybody's books.
     
     So what is your point?

SP>  behind.  In the 20th century I can profess to MG>believe in 
SP>  the deaths of tens of millions but if I question one 
SP>  MG>particular means of death the claim is that I have 
SP>  denied all of MG>the deaths.

SP>    You have denied the gas chambers, 

     Since when is pointing out the stories are not possible 
denying anything?  Since when is asking for credible evidence 
denying anything?

and also death by 
SP>    starvation , beatings and disease.  

     Then you are illiterate or have not read a word I have said 
that you did not what to read.

(Unsatisfactory was 
SP>    how you categorized these answers.) So that leaves 
SP>    outright murder by injection and hanging, which are 
SP>    neither efficient nor high up on the list as the major 
SP>    causes of death, as well as by shooting, which was high 
SP>    on the list.

     You said there were 30,000 who died from typhus in the week 
they were liberated.  Why would you now claim disease is 
inefficient or that disease could not account for it.


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