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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_debate_9409


 R_9409 
+++ r_940904 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (808)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War               

               Welfare and the End of the Cold War
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     We are presented with an opportunity here.  All over the
country the military is shutting down bases.  And all over the
country the cost of welfare is increasing.
     This is a simple solution.  Anyone one wanting support from
the government moves onto one of those bases.  If they do not
then they get no support.  The bases have every facility needed
for living even if in a rather spartan style.
     Barracks living is not all that bad.  The slight
modifications would be for small children, beds and bathing
facilities and such.  There are mess facilities, medical
facilities, everything needed for a self contained community.
     And on the plus side, no food stamp payments, no welfare
payments, perhaps a small amount for personal needs but that
could be earned by work to maintain the facilities.  As these
would not be a generally criminal class only a modest number of
staff and policing personnel would be required.
     Of course this would not apply to the elderly or the sickly,
those truly incapacitated who need more than what a military base
would be equipped to handle.
     What are the objections?  Only that they would be moved out
of the city.  They would certainly have clean facilities.
Cleaning would earn the spending money.  The work would be within
walking distance and always enough for everyone.  It would be a
safe environment.  Personal possessions could certainly be
warehoused on the base.  As for moving them to the base that
would be a bus trip for the people and some workers from the base
to pack any personal possessions into an army truck and drive it
to the base storage facility.
     Everyone wins all around.
     Of course there would have to be some degree of discipline
and the penalty would be being kicked off base and losing all
support.  Leaving base and having visitors would not be a problem
save that there would be body searches to prevent alcohol and
drugs being introduced onto the base.  There would be no problem
with leaving clubs open to sell drinks as people could be shut
off before becoming drunk.
     So there would be a safe and drug free environment.  There
are plenty of recreation facilities.  Would this not save
billions and at the same time give these people what they need?
In many cases more than they have now.
     If this were done qualifications could be relaxed.  People
could show up at the welfare office ready to move to the base.
No more hassles over who is qualified or who is not getting what
they need.
     Of course if they want to keep their freedom then their
freedom there is a clear way to do it, work.  If they can not
find work then they do have an option that keeps them well fed
and healthy.
     They can be trained for work on the base.  It could be part
of the discipline requirements.  And who takes care of the kids?
They do, train and work in shifts while they pool resources to
take care of each other's children.
     I see it as a win win situation.  A few bugs to work out
perhaps but overall everyone gets what they want and need.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (825)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail                           

                          Another Nail
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     Soon Clinton is going to put another nail in the coffin of
the Bill of Right by signing the Crime Bill with the falsely
claimed assault weapons ban.  Earlier this year it became
official Clinton Administration policy to circumvent the 4th
amendment.  Recently it came to light that it was official policy
to circumvent the 1st amendment.  And now the official attack
upon the 2nd amendment.
     In the attacks upon the 1st and 4th is was Housing and Urban
Development leading the way.  In the case of the 2nd it is the
entire US Congress.
     Let us review the Constitution.  Article 1, Section 8
and Article 2, section 2, clearly delineate the only powers
delegated to the US government.  The first ten amendments were
specifically designed to limited the federal government's powers.
The 10th is explicit in this regard.
     Yet we have an attack upon freedom of assembly and speech
and redress of grievance when HUD threatens fines and prison
terms for objecting to its plans for its socially noble housing
projects.  It further has a policy of doing warrantless searches
despite the explicit prohibition of searches without a warrant.
And finally we have the infringement of the right right to keep
and bear arms in the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill.
     If no one has been paying attention this has all occurred in
the last eight months.  There are at least 29 months left for
this Administration to do more of the same.
     This is not merely a 2nd Amendment issue.  This is an all
out assault upon the Bill of Rights.  It is an effort to
eliminate the prohibitions that were places upon the US
Government two centuries ago.
     I do not see an organized conspiracy or a plan.  I see
do-gooders without the slightest self restraint who will do
whatever they see they can get away without without regard to any
principle or law.  It is not a question of what they can do
within the system.  It is a matter of what they can get away with
regardless of the system.
     And in this matter it is completely without regard to the
Constitution they took and oath to uphold and defend.  That lack
of regard is in itself an impeachable offense.
     While they act without such regard they have no moral
authority to the power they would wield.  They have only the
legal authority we permit them by our passivity.  It is a far
greater moral act to resist than to submit of course the
penalties for failure are equally greater.
     Those who have been or are in the military or some other
form of federal service have all taken an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  There
was no time limit on that oath.  Submission to illegitimate
authority is not standing by that oath.
     Remember there were also words in that oath "against all
enemies foreign and domestic."  A government that has policies to
circumvent the constitution is a domestic enemy of that
constitution.  By the definition given in the Constitution it is
not treason although there have been many more than two witnesses
to each act.
     We are in need of a word for this.  Sedition perhaps.
Perhaps we need a new word but they are enemies of the
Constitution and many of us have an oath to defend the
Constitution against them.
     There risks involved will be great.  The government will not
stand for obstruction and the more deliberate its attack on the
Constitution the more likely a violent response to those who
would preserve the Constitution.
     But in the absence of efforts to preserve the Constitution
the enemies of it will certainly increase the level of attacks
upon it.  Success without opposition will lead to greater attacks
by its enemies.  The longer resistance is put off the sooner the
larger attacks will continue.
     I have been accused of fomenting.  In fact I am only
recounting what will happen.  The next year will bring greater
attacks upon out Constitution.  The time for a final stand is
approaching faster than we would ever have dreamed.  Gun laws,
1934, 1968, 1986, 1994.  I do not think it is my imagination they
are coming more frequently and on lesser pretexts.  I have
documented the loss of the 4th over some 20 years in another
article.  This year we have the first full scale attack upon the
1st.
     I have no idea what will be next other than Brady II is
coming.  I am certain what does come will be much worse.  Pick an
amendment.  Expect none to be safe.  Expect the 2nd to be the
least of the attacks.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 18/102 250/3 99 201 204 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 901
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25




+++ r_940904 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (808)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War               

               Welfare and the End of the Cold War
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     We are presented with an opportunity here.  All over the
country the military is shutting down bases.  And all over the
country the cost of welfare is increasing.
     This is a simple solution.  Anyone one wanting support from
the government moves onto one of those bases.  If they do not
then they get no support.  The bases have every facility needed
for living even if in a rather spartan style.
     Barracks living is not all that bad.  The slight
modifications would be for small children, beds and bathing
facilities and such.  There are mess facilities, medical
facilities, everything needed for a self contained community.
     And on the plus side, no food stamp payments, no welfare
payments, perhaps a small amount for personal needs but that
could be earned by work to maintain the facilities.  As these
would not be a generally criminal class only a modest number of
staff and policing personnel would be required.
     Of course this would not apply to the elderly or the sickly,
those truly incapacitated who need more than what a military base
would be equipped to handle.
     What are the objections?  Only that they would be moved out
of the city.  They would certainly have clean facilities.
Cleaning would earn the spending money.  The work would be within
walking distance and always enough for everyone.  It would be a
safe environment.  Personal possessions could certainly be
warehoused on the base.  As for moving them to the base that
would be a bus trip for the people and some workers from the base
to pack any personal possessions into an army truck and drive it
to the base storage facility.
     Everyone wins all around.
     Of course there would have to be some degree of discipline
and the penalty would be being kicked off base and losing all
support.  Leaving base and having visitors would not be a problem
save that there would be body searches to prevent alcohol and
drugs being introduced onto the base.  There would be no problem
with leaving clubs open to sell drinks as people could be shut
off before becoming drunk.
     So there would be a safe and drug free environment.  There
are plenty of recreation facilities.  Would this not save
billions and at the same time give these people what they need?
In many cases more than they have now.
     If this were done qualifications could be relaxed.  People
could show up at the welfare office ready to move to the base.
No more hassles over who is qualified or who is not getting what
they need.
     Of course if they want to keep their freedom then their
freedom there is a clear way to do it, work.  If they can not
find work then they do have an option that keeps them well fed
and healthy.
     They can be trained for work on the base.  It could be part
of the discipline requirements.  And who takes care of the kids?
They do, train and work in shifts while they pool resources to
take care of each other's children.
     I see it as a win win situation.  A few bugs to work out
perhaps but overall everyone gets what they want and need.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  RoboMail -- The next generation QWK compatible reader!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (825)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail                           

                          Another Nail
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     Soon Clinton is going to put another nail in the coffin of
the Bill of Right by signing the Crime Bill with the falsely
claimed assault weapons ban.  Earlier this year it became
official Clinton Administration policy to circumvent the 4th
amendment.  Recently it came to light that it was official policy
to circumvent the 1st amendment.  And now the official attack
upon the 2nd amendment.
     In the attacks upon the 1st and 4th is was Housing and Urban
Development leading the way.  In the case of the 2nd it is the
entire US Congress.
     Let us review the Constitution.  Article 1, Section 8
and Article 2, section 2, clearly delineate the only powers
delegated to the US government.  The first ten amendments were
specifically designed to limited the federal government's powers.
The 10th is explicit in this regard.
     Yet we have an attack upon freedom of assembly and speech
and redress of grievance when HUD threatens fines and prison
terms for objecting to its plans for its socially noble housing
projects.  It further has a policy of doing warrantless searches
despite the explicit prohibition of searches without a warrant.
And finally we have the infringement of the right right to keep
and bear arms in the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill.
     If no one has been paying attention this has all occurred in
the last eight months.  There are at least 29 months left for
this Administration to do more of the same.
     This is not merely a 2nd Amendment issue.  This is an all
out assault upon the Bill of Rights.  It is an effort to
eliminate the prohibitions that were places upon the US
Government two centuries ago.
     I do not see an organized conspiracy or a plan.  I see
do-gooders without the slightest self restraint who will do
whatever they see they can get away without without regard to any
principle or law.  It is not a question of what they can do
within the system.  It is a matter of what they can get away with
regardless of the system.
     And in this matter it is completely without regard to the
Constitution they took and oath to uphold and defend.  That lack
of regard is in itself an impeachable offense.
     While they act without such regard they have no moral
authority to the power they would wield.  They have only the
legal authority we permit them by our passivity.  It is a far
greater moral act to resist than to submit of course the
penalties for failure are equally greater.
     Those who have been or are in the military or some other
form of federal service have all taken an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  There
was no time limit on that oath.  Submission to illegitimate
authority is not standing by that oath.
     Remember there were also words in that oath "against all
enemies foreign and domestic."  A government that has policies to
circumvent the constitution is a domestic enemy of that
constitution.  By the definition given in the Constitution it is
not treason although there have been many more than two witnesses
to each act.
     We are in need of a word for this.  Sedition perhaps.
Perhaps we need a new word but they are enemies of the
Constitution and many of us have an oath to defend the
Constitution against them.
     There risks involved will be great.  The government will not
stand for obstruction and the more deliberate its attack on the
Constitution the more likely a violent response to those who
would preserve the Constitution.
     But in the absence of efforts to preserve the Constitution
the enemies of it will certainly increase the level of attacks
upon it.  Success without opposition will lead to greater attacks
by its enemies.  The longer resistance is put off the sooner the
larger attacks will continue.
     I have been accused of fomenting.  In fact I am only
recounting what will happen.  The next year will bring greater
attacks upon out Constitution.  The time for a final stand is
approaching faster than we would ever have dreamed.  Gun laws,
1934, 1968, 1986, 1994.  I do not think it is my imagination they
are coming more frequently and on lesser pretexts.  I have
documented the loss of the 4th over some 20 years in another
article.  This year we have the first full scale attack upon the
1st.
     I have no idea what will be next other than Brady II is
coming.  I am certain what does come will be much worse.  Pick an
amendment.  Expect none to be safe.  Expect the 2nd to be the
least of the attacks.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 18/102 250/3 99 201 204 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 901
SEEN-BY: 259/98 99 532 533 377/5 6 9 15 50 54 396/1 3603/10 20 3615/50 51
SEEN-BY: 3619/25




+++ r_940904 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (808)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War               

               Welfare and the End of the Cold War
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     We are presented with an opportunity here.  All over the
country the military is shutting down bases.  And all over the
country the cost of welfare is increasing.
     This is a simple solution.  Anyone one wanting support from
the government moves onto one of those bases.  If they do not
then they get no support.  The bases have every facility needed
for living even if in a rather spartan style.
     Barracks living is not all that bad.  The slight
modifications would be for small children, beds and bathing
facilities and such.  There are mess facilities, medical
facilities, everything needed for a self contained community.
     And on the plus side, no food stamp payments, no welfare
payments, perhaps a small amount for personal needs but that
could be earned by work to maintain the facilities.  As these
would not be a generally criminal class only a modest number of
staff and policing personnel would be required.
     Of course this would not apply to the elderly or the sickly,
those truly incapacitated who need more than what a military base
would be equipped to handle.
     What are the objections?  Only that they would be moved out
of the city.  They would certainly have clean facilities.
Cleaning would earn the spending money.  The work would be within
walking distance and always enough for everyone.  It would be a
safe environment.  Personal possessions could certainly be
warehoused on the base.  As for moving them to the base that
would be a bus trip for the people and some workers from the base
to pack any personal possessions into an army truck and drive it
to the base storage facility.
     Everyone wins all around.
     Of course there would have to be some degree of discipline
and the penalty would be being kicked off base and losing all
support.  Leaving base and having visitors would not be a problem
save that there would be body searches to prevent alcohol and
drugs being introduced onto the base.  There would be no problem
with leaving clubs open to sell drinks as people could be shut
off before becoming drunk.
     So there would be a safe and drug free environment.  There
are plenty of recreation facilities.  Would this not save
billions and at the same time give these people what they need?
In many cases more than they have now.
     If this were done qualifications could be relaxed.  People
could show up at the welfare office ready to move to the base.
No more hassles over who is qualified or who is not getting what
they need.
     Of course if they want to keep their freedom then their
freedom there is a clear way to do it, work.  If they can not
find work then they do have an option that keeps them well fed
and healthy.
     They can be trained for work on the base.  It could be part
of the discipline requirements.  And who takes care of the kids?
They do, train and work in shifts while they pool resources to
take care of each other's children.
     I see it as a win win situation.  A few bugs to work out
perhaps but overall everyone gets what they want and need.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  RoboMail -- The next generation QWK compatible reader!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (825)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail                           

                          Another Nail
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     Soon Clinton is going to put another nail in the coffin of
the Bill of Right by signing the Crime Bill with the falsely
claimed assault weapons ban.  Earlier this year it became
official Clinton Administration policy to circumvent the 4th
amendment.  Recently it came to light that it was official policy
to circumvent the 1st amendment.  And now the official attack
upon the 2nd amendment.
     In the attacks upon the 1st and 4th is was Housing and Urban
Development leading the way.  In the case of the 2nd it is the
entire US Congress.
     Let us review the Constitution.  Article 1, Section 8
and Article 2, section 2, clearly delineate the only powers
delegated to the US government.  The first ten amendments were
specifically designed to limited the federal government's powers.
The 10th is explicit in this regard.
     Yet we have an attack upon freedom of assembly and speech
and redress of grievance when HUD threatens fines and prison
terms for objecting to its plans for its socially noble housing
projects.  It further has a policy of doing warrantless searches
despite the explicit prohibition of searches without a warrant.
And finally we have the infringement of the right right to keep
and bear arms in the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill.
     If no one has been paying attention this has all occurred in
the last eight months.  There are at least 29 months left for
this Administration to do more of the same.
     This is not merely a 2nd Amendment issue.  This is an all
out assault upon the Bill of Rights.  It is an effort to
eliminate the prohibitions that were places upon the US
Government two centuries ago.
     I do not see an organized conspiracy or a plan.  I see
do-gooders without the slightest self restraint who will do
whatever they see they can get away without without regard to any
principle or law.  It is not a question of what they can do
within the system.  It is a matter of what they can get away with
regardless of the system.
     And in this matter it is completely without regard to the
Constitution they took and oath to uphold and defend.  That lack
of regard is in itself an impeachable offense.
     While they act without such regard they have no moral
authority to the power they would wield.  They have only the
legal authority we permit them by our passivity.  It is a far
greater moral act to resist than to submit of course the
penalties for failure are equally greater.
     Those who have been or are in the military or some other
form of federal service have all taken an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  There
was no time limit on that oath.  Submission to illegitimate
authority is not standing by that oath.
     Remember there were also words in that oath "against all
enemies foreign and domestic."  A government that has policies to
circumvent the constitution is a domestic enemy of that
constitution.  By the definition given in the Constitution it is
not treason although there have been many more than two witnesses
to each act.
     We are in need of a word for this.  Sedition perhaps.
Perhaps we need a new word but they are enemies of the
Constitution and many of us have an oath to defend the
Constitution against them.
     There risks involved will be great.  The government will not
stand for obstruction and the more deliberate its attack on the
Constitution the more likely a violent response to those who
would preserve the Constitution.
     But in the absence of efforts to preserve the Constitution
the enemies of it will certainly increase the level of attacks
upon it.  Success without opposition will lead to greater attacks
by its enemies.  The longer resistance is put off the sooner the
larger attacks will continue.
     I have been accused of fomenting.  In fact I am only
recounting what will happen.  The next year will bring greater
attacks upon out Constitution.  The time for a final stand is
approaching faster than we would ever have dreamed.  Gun laws,
1934, 1968, 1986, 1994.  I do not think it is my imagination they
are coming more frequently and on lesser pretexts.  I have
documented the loss of the 4th over some 20 years in another
article.  This year we have the first full scale attack upon the
1st.
     I have no idea what will be next other than Brady II is
coming.  I am certain what does come will be much worse.  Pick an
amendment.  Expect none to be safe.  Expect the 2nd to be the
least of the attacks.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 18/102 250/3 99 201 204 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 901
SEEN-BY: 259/98 99 532 533 377/5 6 9 15 50 54 396/1 3603/10 20 3615/50 51
SEEN-BY: 3619/25




+++ r_940905 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (919)
To:      Pete Bucy                               2 Sep 94 04:16:10
Subject: Invade Cuba?                           

PB>  CB>  Maybe because Cuba's a shining example of socialized health 
PB>  CB>  care?

PB>      Cuba would be a tough fight.  Not only that, but they 
PB>      could easily hit Miami and the keys with missiles, not 
PB>      to mention a jet fighter or two.  There is also a 
PB>      concern in the minds of many analysts that Cuba may 
PB>      indeed have a couple of nuclear warheads left over from 
PB>      their Soviet Union liaison.
PB> 
PB>      I say open the markets and let them trade themselves 
PB>      into decadent capitalism.  In reality, just how much 
PB>      more socialistic are they than the Clinton dream for 
PB>      America?

     If there were a serious reason to hit Cuba it would take 
about 38 seconds to secure Havana.   Anything beyond that would 
be the dumb shits who do not know they have lost with the first 
wave of the invasion.  

     As a caller to Limbaugh said, as opposed to Kuwait being 
called Just Cause, this is Just BEcause.

     Fuck it.  ONE death is on Billie Jeff's shoulders.  May he 
die with it.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (920)
To:      Andy Hornback                           2 Sep 94 04:26:10
Subject: Let Our Children Pray!                 

AH> -> AH>         Well, a Christian prayer, like the 25+ years prior to my AH>
AH> -> graduation. No one raised hell about it before, and then the AH> Supreme
AH> -> Court cuts it off.  If there are no complaints about
AH> -> For a case to get to the Supreme Court means that SOMEBODY complained.

AH>         Great example of creative quoting to get your point across... if 
you
AH> would have continued reading before you jumped in, you would have noticed 
that
AH> there weren't any complaints from my school, or the surrounding area.  I
AH> believe that the Supreme Court case in question deals with a student from 
a New
AH> England state, not Virginia...


AH> Andy Hornback / Sysop
AH> The Hotel California
AH> --- FidoPCB v1.4 [ff358/b]
AH>  * Origin: The Hotel California 615-928-5704 Johnson City, TN 1:3642/701

     And you can trace your ancestory back to Dearborn County 
Indiana as can I? Lets us take this netmail if you can.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  FOIA?  We don't need no stinking FOIA!
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (921)
To:      Judith Bandsma                          2 Sep 94 05:26:10
Subject: A Face on AIDS II                      

JB>  MG> this story (Lindsay Peterson) can do as good a job as I can at
JB>  MG> telling the story so let me simply quote it.

JB> [snipped]

     Bobbit!


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (922)
To:      Stewart Harris                          2 Sep 94 05:29:10
Subject: Vince Foster                           

SH>  ................................. I would state:

SH>  From what few came to court in my experience, what you 
SH>  state is correct.
SH> 
SH>  Additionally, there is not one single case on the books 
SH>  where a suicide wrote a note, didn't sign it, tore it up 
SH>  and then blew his brains out.
SH> 
SH>  Plus, regardless of who shot whom, the body was moved and 
SH>  that little felony should be investigated.  Even if Foster 
SH>  shot himself, if the body was moved it is reasonable to 
SH>  assume that total strangers did not move the body.  After 
SH>  all, to one who is not politically concerned about where he 
SH>  is found, it is a needless risk to move the body.  But it 
SH>  might have benefit to those who would like to avoid 
SH>  embarrassment.  Perhaps it was moved in order to avoid 
SH>  exactly what has occurred:  suspicion being put upon the 
SH>  White House.

      Fiske is dead!  Long live the Starr.
     
     I really do not give a rat's ass but I have shitloads of 
files that do not support the suicide conclusion.      


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.
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+++ r_940908 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (937)
To:      Michael Pilon                           5 Sep 94 00:12:10
Subject: CANADIAN DAY                           

 MG>  Every February 16th a Canadian name Fred flies from Tampa 
 MG>  Bay to Toronto.  If, when he gets off the plane, he sees 
 MG>  his shadow he takes the return flight knowing there will be 
 MG>  six more weeks of winter.

MP>  Hell that would be just about right...  I usually get the 
MP>  bike out aroung the first of April...Smart man that Fred.  
MP>  But smarter still he could have the weather faxed to him 
MP>  and spend the savings on a few cool ones.

     BTW:  Smarter yes but remember this guy is a Canadian.   I 
think he wrote Strange Brew.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (938)
To:      Alan Hess                               5 Sep 94 00:13:10
Subject: COLORLESS?                             

AH>> If nonwhites are "colored", are whites "colorless"?

 MG>      You are getting desperate.

AH> Naah, just curious.

     Now that you are just curious back when there was organized 
objection to the use of the word colored the response was, No on 
Colored me, I was born this way.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<:               I don't call 911.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (940)
To:      Michael Pilon                           5 Sep 94 01:20:10
Subject: LONG WINTER                            

 MG> It is going to be a rough winter this year.
 MG> The first Canadian was spotted in Tampa Bay last week.

MP>  And what pray tell is a spotted Canadian ?  SHurely not a 
MP>  French Canadian Jack Butler has vomitted on ( Debate echo 
MP>  Passim).

     In the Queen's English you may have spotted Canadian (like a 
leapord, mostly Canadian and a wannabe American) but in real 
American English spotting one means to tag them for the game 
warden.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (941)
To:      Paul Smith                              5 Sep 94 02:07:10
Subject: NICOTINE ADDICTION                     

MG >     So you are advocating regulation of its use even in the home
MG >also.

PS>  Sheesh, where have you been Matt?  I have said over and 
PS>  over that, IMHO, smoking in the same room with a child is a 
PS>  form of child abuse and I look forward to an expansion of 
PS>  the child abuse laws to cover same.

     When such a situation comes about I am going to write one of 
the most fun articles in a long time.  I am going to freely admit 
that my much vaunted abiltity to predict the abuse of a law, in 
this case child abuse, 

     I completely missed that a law slamming an infant against a 
wall, trying to sexually stimulate a 4 month old, or breaking 
enough bones to put it into intensive care short of killing it 
would ultimately be used to condemn smoking which will cause a 
slight probablity of decreased pulmonary function in later years.

     That is like extending murder to spitting to the sidewalk.

     People who think that way are idiots.

MG >      As I would rather point out, when you find someone 
MG > against tobacco you find and old maid Miss Grundy who holds 
MG > everyone's business is her business.

PS>  You have done so on many occasions Matt.  That is your 
PS>  opinion and you are, of course, welcome to it.  I do, 
PS>  however, suggest that you inspect your own house before 
PS>  casting more stones.

     I respect the privacy of the individual, period, with only 
the most blatant deviations worthy of consideration for 
intervention from others. 

     I believe I have inspected myself and have posted along 
these lines numerous times.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (947)
To:      Jim Salter                              5 Sep 94 05:27:10
Subject: Clinton/fires/marines                  

JS>         FYI, not that it matters, was stationed aboard a 
JS>  submarine once, not quite long enough to get dolphins.  
JS>  Since then....  You betcha I'm a skimmer! (Beats being a 
JS>  CONER)
     
     There are skimmers and there are sinkers.   There is nothing 
in between.

     Skimmers put them all on the bottom.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: None of my opinions are humble.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1069)
To:      David Lentz                             5 Sep 94 16:15:10
Subject: Canadian piracy                        

MG> DL> War is civilized?  Since when?
MG>
MG>      For centuries.  That is why we have the Geneva Conventions.

DL> At least you refered to the Geneva Conventions, as a plural.

DL> Now can you name a civilized war?

     Most all the European ones in last 1000 years or so.  
Slaughtering the losers has gone out of style for the most part.  
POWs are treated humanely rather than sold into slavery or 
starved to death.  Save for the Russians in WW II raping the 
women has stopped.  Looting was way down in that war.  

     Granted that was did not respect the holy days and used 
rifled barrels ...

     By civilized in context of war I mean the rules have evolved 
where the object is only winning and not all the fun things that 
used to be part of war but had little to do with actually winning 
the war.  The antics of Attila or the Crusades being examples of 
uncivilized behavior.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Never assume conspiracy where stupidity will suffice.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1070)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         5 Sep 94 16:24:10
Subject: CHURCH-STATE MARRIAGE                  

MG>SH>  ................................. I would state:

MG>SH>  Because evolution is taught in the schools as scientific  SH>  fact whe
MG>it is just another theory;

MG>     You are confusing "Dr. Watson, I have a theory" with the  theory of
MG>relativity.  Evolution is in the latter category.

BS> Which brings us to astronomy (it has been used to demonstrate the
BS> predictions of relativity).

BS> I guess the fundamentalists like to focus on evolution for
BS> severas reasons:
BS>  1.) Dealing with living things, it is so personal and easy to use in
BS>  arousing emotion.
BS>  2.) They have a counter "theory" in genesis.
BS>  3.) It is easier for them to misunderstand.

     To be more historically accurate most everyone agree 
pre-Darwin that Genesis was not correct.  That included all the 
major religions.  When Darwin wrote The Origin Of The Species all 
of those religions accepted it as a clarification of the story 
and had no problem with it.

     Then he wrote The Descent of Man and all hell broke loose 
with the resulting fundie notions we have today.  Possibly if he 
had used Ascent rather than Descent things might be different as 
it would have left a space for the addition of a soul.   

BS>  What about astronomy? It is astronomy that disproves the 
BS>  biblical model of the solar system and universe.  It is 
BS>  astronomy that confirms the ancient age of the universe.

     Historical correctness again, geology preceeded both 
evolution and astronomy in pushing back the age of the earth and 
thus the universe.  It was the construction of very large 
telescopes early in this century that started giving astronomy 
the lead in dating the universe.

BS>  Is astronomy, with its emphasis on cold rocks and hot 
BS>  gasses too impersonal to be worthy of fundamentalist's 
BS>  attention?

     It is much more difficult for them to create deceiving 
stories about it although they try with C14 dating.

BS>  Has the creation research institute no counter theory to 
BS>  offer against astronomy?

     Too hard.  They logical fallacies they use involve appeals 
to reasonableness and the principles of astrophysics are not 
amenable to what should be reasonable but wrong.

BS>  Is astronomy so difficult for fundamentalists to understand 
BS>  that they can't even articulate their "misunderstanding"?

     It has been tried.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Live fast, love well, and have a glorious end.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1073)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         5 Sep 94 16:52:10
Subject: FEDERAL RESERVE II     02              

BS>  Pat Robertson, a Republican who garnered millions of 
BS>  Republican votes when he ran for the Presidential 
BS>  nomination, and who has been a prominently featured and 
BS>  honored prime time speaker at Republican National 
BS>  Conventions, has written a book, The New World Order.  
BS>  (Actually, I suspect it's ghost written.)
BS> 
BS>  In that he gives the impression that the Federal Reserve is 
BS>  the brainchild of a Satanic conspiracy designed to weaken 
BS>  the United States economically so that a  one-world 
BS>  government can be set up for Mr.  666, the Anti-Christ.
BS> 
BS>  Comments?

     Do I need to?  Have you missed my opinion of fundies 
somehow?  The man is an idiot.  

     You may have missed that I am a registered Libertarian.  It 
just happens that much more of what is in the conservative agenda 
is closer to my political thinking than the liberal agenda.  
Therefore you see me more often supporting those positions.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Born in 1945; the replacement for WW II.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1075)
To:      David Lentz                             5 Sep 94 17:10:10
Subject: Limbaugh's reign of e                  

MG> DL>  Does an unsigned note prove murder?  No.  Is it suspious.
MG> DL>  Very!
MG>
MG>      What makes you think he did not sign it?  The piece that
MG> would have contained his signature is the piece that is missing.

DL>  So the piece of paper with Vincent Foster signature is 
DL>  missing? Who took the piece of paper and why did they take 
DL>  it?

     That is the important question as without that piece there 
is no way to know if it was in fact ever signed and thus whether 
or not he wrote it.  The problem is that suicide notes generally 
are written in one way or another to demonstrate it is a personal 
decision or to make certain no one else is blamed.  This note did 
neither.  This type is not unheardof just very uncommon.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Truth:  Get it fresh or not at all.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1096)
To:      Lester Garrett                          5 Sep 94 18:20:10
Subject: Vince Foster                           

LG>      LG>  I suggest to you that simply repeating over and again that  
LG>      LG>  "if he wanted to say goodbye to the world, he would have 
LG>      LG>  signed the note" has no merit given that other suicides 
LG>      LG>  have, for reasons which they have taken with them to the 
LG>      LG>  grave, have done the same thing.

 MG>  From what I have read a typical suicide note claims full 
 MG>  responsibly and exonerated EVERYone.  From what I have read 
 MG>  they are casebook citations.  

LG>  I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say here.  How 
LG>  does claiming responsibility etc.  bear on the matter of a 
LG>  signature?  Or was that just a side comment?  Also, while I 
LG>  would agree with what your saying as a broad 
LG>  characterization, it most certainly is not always the case.  
LG>  I know of several instances over the years where pretty 
LG>  much the opposite was the case.

     From the top.

     The signature, IF the missing piece has a signature on it, 
is the only thing that would connect it with Foster.  Given that 
the next problem that it is not clearly a suicide note.
     
     By what I said, a suicide may blame another person for the 
suicide but it is clearly a suicide note.  Others will go into 
who should not blame themselves for causing the suicide.  It is 
the very rare one that says, I think so and so is going to kill 
me.  And of course there are clearly cases where there is no note 
at all.

     In most cases there are noticable behavior changes of which 
none are reported in this case.

     What we have is a note that can only suggest depression 
after you know there has been a suicide.   I don't have a copy on 
this machine but if you kept a copy re-read it as though you did 
not know there was a suicide.  To me, were I to speculate in that 
light, I would consider it possibly a first draft of a 
resignation that was too personal but got the reasons on paper as 
a guide for the formal one.

     It simply does not read like something that would be an 
prelude to suicide or even of a seriously depressed person -- 
that being the story floated as to his problem and the drug he 
was taking.  It lacks thesaurus equivalents to 'hopeless' and the 
like.  The only thing for it is that it is not positive.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1098)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         5 Sep 94 18:22:10
Subject: VINCE FOSTER                           

MG>      From what I have read a typical suicide note claims 
MG> full  responsibly a exonerated EVERYone.  From what I have 
MG> read they  are casebook citations.

BS>  Instead of twaddling on about Foster not having signed his 
BS>  note, the original poster, had he been more perceptive, 
BS>  would have claimed the note a forgery because Foster, an 
BS>  attorney, did not incorporate a durable power of attorney.

     I do not see what you are getting at.  He was married and 
presuming he had a will that was settled.  A POA terminates upon 
death.  What is your point?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1127)
To:      Ron Allard                              5 Sep 94 19:51:10
Subject: Whitewater: Ultra-Right T              

 RA>>  In other words, it is a right-wing attack--akin to a 
 RA>>  coup--against the Clinton administration.

 MG>       I find it interesting that avowed communists support 
 MG>  Clinton.  I do not find it unexpected.
 MG> 
 MG> I especially liked the "minor corruption" paragraph.
 MG> 
 MG> It's like saying "she's a little bit pregnant"...

     They do appear to be only a little bit of anything but the 
country is anything but a little bit screwed.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Coward dies a 1000 deaths, a hero 1.  Best odds in town
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+++ r_940910 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1068)
To:      All                                     7 Sep 94 01:46:10
Subject: Spam facts                             

     The five top states in Spam consumption are Hawaii, Alaska, 
Arkansas, Texas, and Alabama.
---
  SPEED 1.30 >01<  I never apologize.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1070)
To:      Lester Garrett                          7 Sep 94 02:00:10
Subject: Waco Report                            

LG>  I'd like to hear what the rest of you (be you active 
LG>  posters or just plain lurkers) think of Gary's offer.  
LG>  (Which is why I have repeated the full text of his message 
LG>  just in case some of you missed it.)  

     Hell yes but first determine if it is the Committee for Waco 
Justice report.  It sounds about the right size.  That is on 
boards all over the country.  I have put it in five states 
myself.  It would be better to look around for it as a file if 
that is what it is.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: None of my opinions are humble.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1102)
To:      Pete Bucy                               7 Sep 94 13:01:10
Subject: Invade Cuba?                           

 MG> If there were a serious reason to hit Cuba it would take 
 MG> about 38 seconds to secure Havana.   Anything beyond that would 
 MG> be the dumb shits who do not know they have lost with the first 
 MG> wave of the invasion.

PB>     I think that you have greatly underestimated the Cuban
PB>     military and the loyalty that many Cubans feel for him.

PB>     It would be a tough fight.

     I will stand by what I said.  The old timers would certainly 
get the loyalists into a guerrilla warfare movement but if the 
mood of the people of the country is as it seems they will not 
support it.  And without support all we would have to do would be 
to arm the population and they lose quickly.

     Beyond that what training or experience does the Cuban army 
have besides Angola?  That is their problem.  In defending the 
major cities they have the classic dilemma that tanks and 
military are useless to them.

     Granted they are defenders but so were the Germans at 
Normandy.  A night insertion of special forces, probably SEALS, 
at the Army barracks, blow the ammo dumps and other general 
mayhem followed up with a massive amphibious landing and Havana 
falls.  There isn't much else in the way of cities.  Air cover 
prevents a form up and breakout of motorized equipment from the 
barracks.

     The only predicate is whether or not CIA has gotten its 
hands on their plans in the event of a US invasion.  I presume 
they have.  With that the movement can be flanked while being hit 
from the air.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1142)
To:      All                                     8 Sep 94 01:03:10
Subject: Moral evolution                        

                          Moral Progress
                               by
                          Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/7>

     Often we become depressed over the morality of our public
officials.  We see graft and corruption in the news and ten times
as much commonly known or rumored. We often despair that this can
ever be corrected.
     But there is good news.  There has been massive progress in
the moral standards of public officials over the last sixty to
seventy years.  When we look back to the time of Prohibition we
say judges, prosecutors, the police and politcians at all levels
on the take.
     Back then the FBI was active in ferreting out this
corruption.  It was common knowledge that it was happening.
After all, considering all the effort being expended against
illegal alcohol it was obvious that, with alcohol being so
available, there was no other possible explanation.
     Consider the progress we have made today.  Despite the ready
availability of drugs no public official today is taking money
from anyone involved in drugs.  The FBI has not even bothered to
search it out as it is clear there is none.
     This is an outstanding example of how moral progess is
possible and that people can change.  Despite the tens of
millions of dollars the drug cartels have to buy protection, and
certainly they have offered it, no one has accepted it.  Consider
no one has taken that money.
     Occasionally you will hear of an official or police officer
who has been found using them and even less common dealing them
but these are personal failings and do not reflect upon the use
of their public office.
     Consider, despite the graft and corruption the comes to like
in other areas where there is less money to buy protection, in
the area where there is the most money our public officials are
pristine.
     And this has been going on for about two decades when major
smuggling operations started.  First marijuana and then cocaine
along with a major increase in that old favorite heroin and for
all these years no corruption.
     A cynic may say there is enough money to keep it all quiet
but how could that be?  We have the FBI and the DEA specifically
charged with finding such corruption.  The FBI at least is still
an incorruptible agency in the mold of J. Edgar Hoover.
     And they uncover no one and find no problems for this last
score of years.  Thefore we know the cynic must be wrong.  The
FBI would never be on the take not to find drug corruption.
     As I write I am listening to the new of St. Petersburg with
the police department, the sheriff's office and the DEA roaming
the city with 400 warrants and having made 30 arrests as of the
2pm news.  It was announced they were all for a cocaine and crack
ring.  
     Do you not admire a coordinated operation to shut down drug
distribution in the city that puts it on the radio while it is in
progress?  Do you not have to respect these law enforcement
agencies knowing the dealers mainly sell during the day and do
not have radios?  This way they can keep the citizens aware of
what a great job they are doing fighting drugs and still make all
400 arrests.
     Consider the days of Prohibition where a cop on the take
would phone the place to be raided and warn them.  That is such
blatant and obvious corruption.  But announcing the operation to
the press and getting minute by minute coverage nothing is
compromised and there is no corruption.
     Again the cynic might suggest drug dealers or even buyers
might listen to radio but there have been laws passed against
boom boxes so they no longer exist.  We all know the rock
stations do not cover local news so even if they had any kind of
radio they would never learn what is happening until they are
arrested.  But there is no need to single out St. Petersburg, 
this is the strategy in all cities.
     There is no conclusion other than there has been a great
leap in the moral evolution of our public figures since early in
this century.  This is a remarkable event in that it is perhaps
the first time in history where, whithout any increase in threat
or penalty, the level of corruption has so markedly and
observably decreased and in such a short period of time.  And
this in the face of perhaps a greater temptation from more
sources and even more money available for graft.
     This change is certainly worthy of serious study by
socialogists as if why it has happened can be discovered perhaps
it can be applied to other areas of human affairs, perhaps even
the drug dealers themselves.  I am proud to be the first to
identify this phenomon and hope it can be used for the betterment
of the human race.
                           * * * * *
Further distribution is encouraged by the author.
Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl 34698, 813-733-5479



---
  SPEED 1.30 >01<  Hell, I am almost always right 99.7% of the time.
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+++ r_940912 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (930)
To:      David Lentz                             8 Sep 94 01:50:10
Subject: Long winter                            

MG>      It is going to be a rough winter this year.
MG>
MG>      The first Canadian was spotted in Tampa Bay last week.

DL>  In southern Arizona such a sighting would be labled a 
DL>  "snowbird" spotting.

     What is the license fee and bag limit there?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: None of my opinions are humble.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (932)
To:      David Lentz                             8 Sep 94 03:44:10
Subject: American Hyperbole                     

MP> RAF or RCAF ? Probably Royal Canadian Air Force ;-). But don't tell
MP> Martin
MP> they are looking for scallop violators ;-)
DL>  
DL>  I confess, I can't tell the difference between Royal Air 
DL>  Force and Royal Canadian Air Force markings.

     The RCAF continues to exist only in black and white movies.  
But then was it ever any more?

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Do you expect the poor to hire you?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (933)
To:      Gary Mirkin                             8 Sep 94 03:53:10
Subject: BIGAMY                                 

BK> Seems polygamy is only practiced where there is a shortage of men,
BK>or a  population surplus.

GM>  Isn't it true that men are outnumbered by women on the 
GM>  third nearest planet to our Sun?

     False implication from a general statistic.
                                                
     If you look at the detailed ratios by age, males outnumber 
females at birth.  At puberty the it is 1:1 and continues so for 
another 10-15 years then starts rising in favor of women a bit.  
That is the end of nature.

     Given real medicine women are not lost in childbirth and 
live longer and thus the general statistic of more women than 
men.  But that is post menopausal women as a population and if 
man can get more than one of them, what kid prosecutor is going 
to take an interest?

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Though I walk thru the valley, I am the meanest SOB.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (934)
To:      Lester Garrett                          8 Sep 94 03:55:10
Subject: Bye                                    

LG> In a message to Lester Garrett, dated 29 Aug 94, Art Glasgow wrote:

  AG> . . .As I've told you before (if you remember, which
  AG> you probably don't), I do NOT like the way you run your
  AG> echo.   . . .

  AG> So, despite the fact that I have LARGE amounts of unfinished
  AG> business here. . .  I MUST leave. . .

LG> Your absence will hardly be noticed.

     I miss him already.  

     BTW:  What was the brand name on his mask?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Do you expect the poor to hire you?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (935)
To:      Michael Pilon                           8 Sep 94 04:00:10
Subject: CANADIAN GUNNERS                       

MP>      Canadian gun and bullet fanciers held a number of 
MP>  protests to oppose the strict gun laws in Canada.  They 
MP>  rallied in Sydney Nova  , edmonton Alberta and Prince 
MP>  George BC.  They were given pep talks by local gun 
MP>  guys...freedom, hunting, shooting..blah blah blah.
MP> 
MP>      Several thousand turned up at the various rallies, by 
MP>  way of comparison a rally for Topless rights drew 5000 in 
MP>  Ottawa some 3 years ago.  

     You are stealing my parody style on the priorities of 
Canadians.  Do not do it again.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (936)
To:      Jim Sterling                            8 Sep 94 04:15:10
Subject: crime bill                             

JS>  By sending HCI a five dollar bill last year and pretending 
JS>  I wanted to support them, I received copies of their plans 
JS>  for the future.  I wish now that I'd hung on to it, but I 
JS>  was so angry I circular filed it.  They want us totally 
JS>  disarmed, but what makes me so pissed about it is that the 
JS>  bastards are PROUD of their attitude.

     It is not biblically correct but it is commonly accepted 
that pride goeth before the fall.  

     Or perhaps, he that liveth by the pen shall die by the pen, 
but he that fighteth with the pen ain't got jack shit.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: None of my opinions are humble.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (946)
To:      Grant Karpik                            8 Sep 94 11:54:10
Subject: Enviro: Fun With Meat                  

GK> eye WEEKLY                                              August 25 1994
GK> Toronto's arts newspaper                      .....free every Thursday
GK> ENVIRO                                                          ENVIRO

GK>                  WARNING -- THIS MAY SPOIL YOUR SUPPER

GK>                                   by
GK>                               BOB HUNTER


GK>  Sooner or later, if you want to call yourself 
GK>  environment-friendly and be responsible about your family's 
GK>  health, you have to question eating meat of any kind, 
GK>  especially if it is the product of factory farming.

GK>                               Bob Hunter is a co-founder of Greenpeace
GK>                                   and ecology specialist for  CITY-TV.
     
     The animals, just like Bob Hunter never know the difference.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even Eternal Truth doesn't last forever.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1054)
To:      Scott Allen                             9 Sep 94 12:26:10
Subject: Another Nail                           

SA>  To quote a local talk show host, Mark Scott:"I love my 
SA>  country, but I fear my  government! 

     Where is local?  I used to listen to him when he was in DC.  
He moved on after he started invited people phoning in death 
threats to come down to the station and try it.

 MG>      I do not see an organized conspiracy or a plan. 

SA> Really? I do. 

     I see simply the arogance of power.  If it were organized, 
were there a plan, there could be a strategy to stop them.  This 
is simply too undirected and in some cases too open as in Billie 
Jeff directing his staff to find ways around the 4th.  That is 
much too ad hoc for a plan.

 MG>       But in the absence of efforts to preserve the 
 MG>  Constitution the enemies of it will certainly increase the 
 MG>  level of attacks upon it.  Success without opposition will 
 MG>  lead to greater attacks by its enemies.  The longer 
 MG>  resistance is put off the sooner the larger attacks will 
 MG>  continue.  

SA>  I too, am scared.  It's the main reason I'm volunteering and 
SA>  finacially  contributing to the Jon Coon for US Senate 
SA>  campaign.  Jon Coon is a Libertarian who will stand up for 
SA>  our entire Constitution and won't compromise with evil.  He 
SA>  is running one of the best run and best financed campaigns 
SA>  in Libertarian  history and has a good shot at taking the 
SA>  Senate seat.  Then things will really get interesting in 
SA>  Washington.  

     Do you have an address for his campaign?  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1056)
To:      Grant Karpik                            9 Sep 94 12:41:10
Subject: Canadian piracy                        

DL> Now can you name a civilized war?

MG>      Most all the European ones in last 1000 years or so.  

GK>  Matt? Are you truly as ignorant regarding European history 
GK>  as the above statement seems to indicate you are?

     I do not recall William the Conqueror slaughtering the 
Saxons and make a mound of their heads.  

     Slaughtering or selling the survivors into slavery went out 
of style at least a 1000 years ago.  

     Civilized warfare as I would hold it is solely to win the 
conflict and once won there is no gratuitous killing, torture or 
other clever things we see in other times and places. 


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Rush Limbaugh is too humble.  -- Matt Giwer
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+++ r_940913 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (888)
To:      Jim Sterling                            9 Sep 94 16:13:10
Subject: VINCE FOSTER                           

JS>  Much of what Matt writes is, IMO, sheer twaddle.  
JS>  Occasionally he surprises me with something incisive and 
JS>  relevant.  But his above statement about suicide notes makes 
JS>  me wonder about his choice of smoking material.

     And I have to admit I find this message equally amazing.

JS>  What, I might ask, are "casebook citations," in the 
                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JS>  sentence? To the best of my knowledge, casebook citations 
JS>  are citations from a casebook, and merely reflect what was, 
JS>  not "how it's supposed to be." If he means to indicate a 
JS>  classic standard of some sort, then the signed note, 
JS>  apologizing and exonerating (?) is hardly a "standard." The 
JS>  "Goodbye, Leona.  It's not your fault," note is no more 
JS>  common than no note at all, signed or unsigned.  Not unknown 
JS>  is the "It's all your fault and now you'll be sorry" note.

     Those two are the same thing in practice.  I had no intent 
of being definitive.  They clearly indicate it is a personal 
action ...

JS>  Had he said that drowners or jumpers most frequently 
JS>  undress and pile their clothing neatly folded, I would 
JS>  agree that it is a sort of "standard." At least it's usual 
JS>  behavior.  For drowners and jumpers.  It's also pretty common 
JS>  for throat and wrist slashers to do it in the bathwater.  

     ... as does undressing.

JS>  But shooters  do it without regard to the 
JS>  cleaner-uppers, and most frequently choose a "living" room.  
JS>  A livingroom, den,  office or similar, rather than the 
JS>  kitchen or bath.  
     
     They do appear to intend to leave the mess which of course 
begs the question of why a park was used rather than an office in 
the White House, that leaving a biggest mess in every sense.  
Unless he carried a gun in the White House he stopped at his home 
in Georgetown to get it, why not at home?  

     Why a park so obscure few natives of the area know exists or 
where to find?  This is not much of a question I guess but it is 
a one of many turnoffs of the George Washington Parkway and is 
itself a park.  If he wanted obscurity and not to be found he 
could have pulled off the road and walked into the woods for 
miles before and after that turn off.  

     He wanted tranquility?  It is not much of a park.  It was a 
civil war gun emplacement but the trees have not been kept clear 
so there is not even a view of the Potomac any longer.  There is 
nothing special about the location save less seclusion than he 
could have had by simply walking into the woods.

JS>  Please note that the above are my educated opinions, 
JS>  gleaned from 60 years of reading, personal familiarity with 
JS>  several suicides, and casebook study in graduate courses in 
JS>  psychology and criminology.

     As for casebooks, they are how things have happened.  There 
are always surprises.  Lots of things were surprises in this 
case.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (889)
To:      Gary Steinweg                           9 Sep 94 16:14:10
Subject: Waco Report                            

GS>  I've really got to wait until Lester Garrett gets back to 
GS>  me on this to OK the big data dump.  One thing about it, 
GS>  once put on the DEBATE echo, it's available to thousands 
GS>  and thousands of people without any additional effort.

     Again if this is the CWJ report you might post the address 
for hard and disk copy of it.  I don't have it at hand at the 
moment.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric
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+++ r_940914 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (859)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        11 Sep 94 01:41:10
Subject: VINCE FOSTER                           

BS> From: MATT GIWER                   Refer#: NONE
BS>   To: LESTER GARRETT                Recvd: NO

MG>      The signature, IF the missing piece has a signature on 
MG> it,  is the only thing that would connect it with Foster.  
MG> Given that  the next problem that is not clearly a suicide 
MG> note.

BS>  You don't believe in handwriting identification? Or was it 
BS>  typed?

     The picture released to the networks was typed.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro:  Hope over experience.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (861)
To:      All                                    11 Sep 94 02:12:10
Subject: 1996 prediction                        

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the controversy conference.

     1996.  

     Republicans nominate Manson as candidate for President.

     Manson loses to Clinton 51 to 49.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am not a number.  I am a free man.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1018)
To:      Andy Von Busse                         10 Sep 94 17:40:10
Subject: Gun Rights In Canada                   

AVB> Quoting TOBY WHITE to MARTIN EBLE concerning Gun Rights In Canada:

TW> Good.  They should ban hand guns.

AVB> Why?

     Because the Canadian government knows its citizens can not 
be trusted with guns.  Were they permitted guns they would 
immediately start holding up licquor stores.  You know what those 
Canadians are like.  Viscious people who have to be controlled 
for their own good.

TW> I am proud of our strict gun control laws.

AVB>  Again, Why? What do they accomplish, in a real benefit to 
AVB>  society.  

     Not is Canada.  The lawless streak in Canadians is something 
that has to be seen to be believed.  Why just last week a 
Canadian visiting the States was permitted to use a gun on a 
range and he immediately drove off and shot up a nunnery.  What 
he did afterwards was not even fit for the tabloids to print.  

     The Canadian government is right.  Its subjects are not to 
be trusted with guns.     


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro:  Hope over experience.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1019)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        10 Sep 94 17:49:10
Subject: ROLE MODELS                            

MN>        And NOT that pathetic American Spectator article that 
MN> came out late y claiming homosexuals were more violent than 
MN> the general population.  That has already been disproved 
MN> repeatedly.

BS> Gays are more involved in violent crimes: as the victims.

     That is only if you ignore gay on gay crime.  Of course 
thost stats can not be collected as those are love crimes.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Scruples taste best with garlic butter.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1020)
To:      Peter Bradie                           10 Sep 94 17:52:10
Subject: SMOKING                                

PB>  Yeah, sure.  Right you are, Paul.  Unfortunately only the 
PB>  tobacco companies would pay to fund a study that might 
PB>  refute that politically correct finding, and their study 
PB>  would be inherently suspect because they have a stake in 
PB>  opposite findings.  I would venture to say that government 
PB>  funding would be promptly cut off if preliminary results 
PB>  from an 'addiction' study showed nicotine to be minimally 
PB>  addictive, rather than seriously addictive.

     And of course no one will believe the EPA is a large 
collection of rabid anti-smokers.  No, they are simply acting in 
the public interest with no person interest in the outcome.  I 
have been to a few of their social gatherings.  You would not 
believe the sanctimony and the lectures.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Few, the Proud, the Politically Incorrect!
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+++ r_940915 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1012)
To:      Ron Buttenham                          11 Sep 94 16:41:10
Subject: Moral Evolution ????                   

MG>     Again the cynic might suggest drug dealers or even buyers
MG>might listen to radio but there have been laws passed against
MG>boom boxes so they no longer exist.

RB> Interesting post but what the heck is the sentence above implying?

     This was an attempt to make the cynicism more obvious.

MG>     There is no conclusion other than there has been a great
MG>leap in the moral evolution of our public figures since early in
MG>this century.

RB>  It seems to me that by watching the occasional "60 Minutes" 
RB>  or "20/20" that one can see segments on lots of corrupt law 
RB>  enforcement officers [occasionally entire departments] and 
RB>  elected officials etc.
RB> 
RB>  You seem to have your rose coloured glasses on.

     I note they are rarely named for anything related to drugs 
and then only when they have taken to dealing drugs, actually 
being part of the industry.  

     Can you remember a case of anyone being found on the take 
for drugs?  

     Around the first of the year someone in the FBI announced 
they had collected over 150 names of people in the justice system 
who were on the take.  Interestingly I have not heard one word 
about it since then.  The question is, how much did it cost to 
lose the list?

     The first person who read the article said I was being too 
subtle.  She was right.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Double O Limbaugh, License to annoy.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1013)
To:      David Lentz                            12 Sep 94 00:37:10
Subject: 4th out the window                     

DL>  When the four Los Angelos dectective entered O.J.  Simpson's 
DL>  residence they did not make a search.  They checked the 
DL>  maid room and that was about the extent of it.   In the 
DL>  preliminary hearing the judge ruled that is was not a 
DL>  search because those acts commonly associated with a searcd 
DL>  were not performed.

     And the other side of the coin, if they had done nothing AND 
the murder had been of OJ rather than of his ex.  Consider the 
charges of racism to come from that one.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1014)
To:      David Lentz                            12 Sep 94 00:41:10
Subject: 4th out the window                     

DL>  I hold that O.J.  Simpson did not have a reasonable 
DL>  expectation of privacy between his fence line and his 
DL>  residence because Simpson did not maintain the area as 
DL>  private.  Simpson had a permanent non-family house guest, 
DL>  who invited his own quest in for sleep-in visits.

     Try the law conference but I believe you are wrong here.  
Were this true then a resident manager has no expectation of 
privacy because of the rentals.  Each person individually in such 
a case has a separate and equal expectation of privacy.  Nothing 
is voided by a tenant landlord relationship.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: It ain't charity with other people's money.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1015)
To:      Jack Wilder                            12 Sep 94 00:47:10
Subject: ATHEISM                                

 BS>  Wouldn't sum ergo cogito leave out bacteria? Do they not 
 BS>  exist because they don't cogito?

JW>          Please post your scientific data that proves 
JW>    bacteria do not think in some fashion.

     The burden of proof is not upon proving a negative.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1108)
To:      Alan Hess                              12 Sep 94 23:19:10
Subject: another stupid law                     

AH>  Starting October 1 here in Maryland, it will be illegal for 
AH>  persons underr 18 to use or posess tobacco products.  Great 
AH>  move, political idiots.  Just what we need - another stupd 
AH>  prohibition-type law to cause more illegal dealing.  

     Wait for the mass arrests to start.  Imagine a cop actually 
making such an arrest and how many years his fellow officers will 
remember it.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1109)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        12 Sep 94 23:27:10
Subject: CANADIAN                               

JS>        Destroyers are MILITARY.  It is illegal to use a 
JS> military vessel to apprehend criminals, that's what the 
JS> Coast Guard is for, in this country...  the Coast Guard are 
JS> police, not military members.
JS> 
JS>        Doesn't Canada have a Coast Guard?

BS> We have been using our military in the "war" on drugs.

     An exception was made for drugs in 1986.  I do not remember 
the press covering that aspect at the time.  It is obvious the 
press was too immature or stupid to realize the impact.  Military 
operations are still limited to outside the US but the first step 
down the slope has been taken.  

     Maybe next year Congress will go the rest of the way.  With 
the Soviet Union out of the way it has an entirely new tool with 
which to work mischief.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1110)
To:      Jack Wilder                            12 Sep 94 23:39:10
Subject: Crime Bill Won't 2/2                   

JW>         Have you read the U.N. "Child Rights" resolution?

JW>          It gives control of the home to children, and 
JW>    removes ALL parental rights in favor of child rights.
JW> 
JW>          In at least two states it only takes a pissed off 
JW>    neighbor to accuse one of sexual abuse, and the children 
JW>    are taken, and you must prove that you DO NOT abuse your 
JW>    children.  ever try to prove a negative??
JW> 
JW>          Whether or not you are innocent is immaterial to 
JW>    the child welfare dept., and you DO NOT get to face your 
JW>    accuser.  Unless charges are filed in court you cannot 
JW>    even get the NAME of the accuser.

     I am not certain what you are getting at here.  ALL states, 
part of some crime bill or other, had to set up anonymous 
hotlines for child abuse and all calls must be investigated and 
the caller is FOREVER anonymous unless called to testify at the 
trial.  
     
     As for the court, the child welfare commandos prefer expert 
witnesses who will testify in jargon and gibberish that impresses 
the court.  They do not want people to know.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even I am impressed with me.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1112)
To:      Pete Bucy                              12 Sep 94 23:51:10
Subject: Travel Warning                         

PB>      The the Hutu show up with a few machetes and farm 
PB>      implements and they kill more people in a week than 
PB>      Hitler and the entire Nazi Empire could exterminate in 
PB>      a year with the devil's own technology.
PB> 
PB>      I am impressed.

     And the consider everything as a percentage of the 
population.  Pol Pot only got 1 million people in Cambodia but it 
was also 1/3 the population.  Not bad either.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1240)
To:      All                                    12 Sep 94 14:15:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

     Some months ago I posted a message saying how easy it would 
be to take off from National with a plane full of explosives and 
crash it into the White House.

     I forget which conference, most like Controvery or Debate, 
but just to make certain I find that conference I will broadcast 
this message.

     I was told it was impossible, that there were secret 
everything that would prevent that from happening, that there was 
no way it could possibly happen.  There was speculation on 
radars, missile defenses, air craft ready to scramble to take out 
out, there were even imaginary loitering air craft in the air at 
all times.

     Sorry about that folks.  It just happened.  9/12 a small 
aircraft crashed on the White House lawn.  It was not shot down.  
The pilot died.  Had he the mind he could have had a hundred 
pounds of dynamite with an impact detonator and aimed a little 
better and hit the White House.

     Are there any further questions?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Matt Giwer, the most dangerous man on Controv. J Higgin
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1242)
To:      All                                    12 Sep 94 15:57:10
Subject: newsletter interest                    

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the LAW conference.

      I know much of the response I will get but I am looking
over my op-ed output and I realize I can produce a bi-monthly
newsletter with only technical difficulties and investment costs.
     Now I am not asking for any kind of commitment only of
interest in subscribing at say $18 a month.  Obviously I could
not afford to object to Xeroxing and distributing it and would in
fact decline to object if I could if the subscription address
were included in the Xeroxing.  This of course is not a license
to violate copyright but rather an observation of reality.
     I have not gone through the costing exercise but I can not
see it being more than $18 a year, more like $12 if I stick with
simple reduction and Xeroxing on my side, but I can't say at the
moment.  
     The tentative title is "The Revolution Watch."  It will
focus upon what I have been posting and for those who have not
been reading it will be topical and focusing upon the rights of
free men and infringements upon them by our government.
     So I am asking, is anyone interested?  Please speak up if
you are interested.  If you are not interested, do not waste the
bandwidth, as I would only base a decision upon the number of
subsribers not upon the non-subscribers.  1/100th of 1% of the
population would be an huge success in my terms.  That 99.99%
would not be interested is of no interest to me.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Stone Age is too good for them.
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+++ r_940917 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (898)
To:      Jim Sterling                           14 Sep 94 00:58:10
Subject: CONFEDERATE FLAG                       

JS>  Back in the 60's I used to work winters as a buyer and 
JS>  sometime field boss for O.W.  Church, the citrus broker down 
JS>  on SOBT.  O.W.  had a brother, Larry Church, who was a small 
JS>  time citrus broker, and I think he had a son who would by 
JS>  now be of an age to have taken over the brokerage.  Dunno.  
JS>  Went down the winter that Disney opened up and never been 
JS>  back.

     Come on back to Tampa Bay particularly St. Pete, Clearwater, 
Dunedin area.  It caters to the retired and the Canadians both of 
which appear to spend equally freely, i.e., it is still 
comparatively cheap and is a wholely civilized part of the state 
south of the South Georgia border.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro:  Hope over experience.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (900)
To:      Jack Wilder                            14 Sep 94 01:05:10
Subject: FEDERAL RESERVE II     02              

 MG> Do I need to?  Have you missed my opinion of fundies 
 MG> somehow?  The man is an idiot.  

JW>         C'mon Matt!  Misguided perhaps, and perhaps even
JW>   hostile to liberty, but an idiot???

     When you have evidence of intelligence please post it.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Though I walk thru the valley, I am the meanest SOB.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (938)
To:      All                                    14 Sep 94 13:12:10
Subject: Haitian Training Exer 1/2              

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the controversy conference.

                 The Haitian Training Exercise
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/14>

     This is the third time I have written on the intention of
President Clinton to kill Haitians.  The situation has not
changed since the first time.  Clinton needs to buy the votes of
the Congressional Black Caucus and killing Haitians is the
easiest way to do that.
     The only thing that has changed from last time is that there
are more justifications for this killing.  The most preposterous
one that because months ago it was threatened without thinking it
through it has to be done now -- else the US (read Clinton) will
be seen as powerless.
     Why in the world this would be a consideration is beyond me.
It is not secret in the world that Clinton is powerless and
ineffective.  After Clinton's first international conference the
other participants left publically wondering to reporters who was
going to take the place of the US.  Smashing the Haitian
superpower is not likely to correct that impression.
     And look at what we have threatening Haiti.  About half the
Naval assets we used to smash the Japanese Fleet at Midway.
Consider there are two aircraft carriers when one aircraft from
one of them could overwhelm the entire Haitian Air Force.
     One grants that quasi real life exercises for the Navy are
few and far between and this is as good an exercise as any but
what rational person can believe this has anything more than
media value?  More to the point, the Haitian government is
laughing their backsides off at the waste of money as certainly
is every other government in the world.
     And if there is any laughing at the US it is at the
absurdity he was elected rather than as a world power.
     And consider the strategic and tactical genius of our
Commander in Chief.  Haiti needs no more intelligence assets than
a satellite dish to watch the US network news.  The assets, the
landing area, everything necessary to optimize resistance has
been spelled out by this administration.
     That brings up a minor problem that does not appear to
bother our Commander in Chief in the least.  Americans are going
to be killed.
     The American people are not as stupid as the President and
his fellow Democrats think.  This upcoming killing spree has a
73% disapproval rating.  The Democrats explanation of that is
that the reasons simply have not been explained to us peons
despite there having been nothing but justifications floated for
over a year.  None of them have sold.
     To correct that our President is going to go on TV on the
15th to explain it to us all.  After it is over we will have to
marvel at either the belief we can be sold by a rehash of all the
justifications tha have not sold or we will marvel at the
creativity in coming up with a new justification.
     There is a very unlikely possibility, that he will admit he
has a political debt to the Black Caucus.  The truth does not
come easy to him so this is not likely.
     In fact he is taking quite a political risk by going on the
air.  Unless he pulls off a very creative, new reason that will
sell to the public, he risks increasing the disapproval rating.
Now rest assured, Democrat Party regulars around the country are
poised to start calling and writing every Democrat in Congress so
that can declare victory for the President and start the invasion
before an honest poll can be taken.
     This is hardly speculation.  If you remember the same
procedure was followed by Ted Kennedy with his post
Chappequiddick speech, asking people if he should resign or
continue to serve.  He declared the people wanted him to stay
before the honest polls contradicted him.
     It is an old technique.  You will see it used again.  Watch
for the invasion in less than the seven days it will take to
conduct an honest poll.
     A related question is whether or not the President needs to
or should seek the concurrance of Congress.  The Democrats
concentrate on Grenada and Panama while the Republicans
concentrate on the Gulf War.  The both have their points.
     With regard to the Grenada and Panama examples those
depended upon surprise to minimize casualties.  The Gulf War
could not possibily have had any surprise to it.  It is obvious
the Haitian killing (it is almost impossible to consider this an
invasion or war) fits the Gulf War model as everything but the
operations plan has been given to the press.
     Does have to?  No.  But it appears prudent when facing the
likelihood of years if not decades of occupation that there be
some review of this commitment of US forces.
     Is there a US interest in Haiti?  Only in comparing the cost
of returning boat people against the cost of this trainging
exercise with live ammunition.
     We have no interest in democracy in Haiti any more than in
any other country in the world.  Were Haiti a super power or even
a power there would certainly be an interest in it being a
democracy.  But remember, we are not dealing with a civilized or
rational, much less educated people in Haiti.
     Haitians are more like to sacrifice a chicken and smear
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sind Sein Tochter Achtzehn?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (939)
To:      All                                    14 Sep 94 13:12:10
Subject: Haitian Training Exer 2/2              

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

themselves with its blood to elect their candidate rather than to
vote.  They are more likely to put a voodoo curse on the
political opposition than to campaign against him.  This is not
an exaggeration of the world view of the average Haitian citizen.
This is the way it is.
     Haiti is not a century behind the rest of the world, it is
in an alternate universe.  Both the European educated Duvaliers
dealt with the US by putting curses involving chickens on the
President at the time. Were they playing to the masses?  The
masses did not like either of them.  At least when Castro visited
the US he intended to eat the live chickens he tried to order
from room service.
     In any event folks, here it comes.  The defining moment in
US history is just around the corner.  Praise Clinton.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sind Sein Tochter Achtzehn?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (940)
To:      All                                    14 Sep 94 13:49:10
Subject: Haiti revelation                       

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the controversy conference.

     Leon Pannetta, 9/14, Today Show.

     "Haiti is a threat to the security of the United States."

     There you have it direct from a mouthy horse.  

     He also said that is the case Clinton will be making in his 
speech.  What he did not say is the qualifier, "IF this trial 
balloon reasons sells to the public."


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1055)
To:      Bob Hirschfeld                         13 Sep 94 15:01:10
Subject: Dershowitz: Gender/Vi 1/2              

 * Forwarded by MATT GIWER from the LAW conference.
 * Original from BOB HIRSCHFELD to ALL on 09-10-94.

United Features
[09.01.94]
 
Gender war often assails the truth
 
By Alan Dershowitz
 
In the gender war declared by radical feminists against men, the
weapon of choice has been the statistic. Rhetorical warriors have
thrown around an arsenal of data designed to show the world that
men assault, stalk, terrorize, and kill their wives, lovers, and
others  of the opposite sex in numbers that should frighten any
woman away  from ever trusting a man. As in other contexts,
the first casualty of  war is often truth. Now we are beginning
to see a reaction to the  statisti-babble that has distorted
gender discussions for so many  years.
 
New studies have raised serious doubts about what has become the
conventional wisdom in intergender violence. These recent studies
tend to show that violence between men and women is more of a
two-way street than previously supposed.  Like most reactions to
overreactions, these new studies should not be taken as gospel.
Their  statistics, like the statistics they seek to supplant, may
also hide  political agendas and must be subjected to rigorous
scientific testing  and retesting before they are allowed to
become the new  conventional wisdom.
 
 
But even before this testing process is completed, the new
studies  should be considered in the debate over intergender
violence.
 
 
Some cases in point:
 
In March of 1994, Secretary of Health and Human Services Donna
Shalala threw  out a statistic claiming that 20 percent to 30
percent of  all women who came to hospital emergency rooms came
"because of  physical abuse by their partners."   That statistic
quickly became the  conventional wisdom, repeated by women's
advocates, the media,  and policy makers. The only problem is
that it has no basis in fact. It  was derived from a single,
10-year-old survey of people admitted to  one inner-city hospital
in Detroit. In that survey, both men and  women were asked
whether they were ever "pushed around," "hit,"  or "kicked" by
their spouses, boyfriends, or girlfriends. They were  not asked
what brought them to the emergency room for this visit.  Twenty
percent of the men answered yes, and twenty-five percent  of the
women answered yes -- a far cry from the gender statistic tossed
out by Shalala.  Moreover, experts on violence point out that the
Detroit hospital is far from typical, since it treats a much
higher  proportion of people the unemployed, the poor, and those
who  cohabit without  being married who tend to be in abusive
relationships.
 
Other studies confirm the politically incorrect conclusion that
"women initiate violence against their male partners as often as
men  initiate violence against their female partners," according
to a  University of New Hampshire researcher who cites 30 such
studies.  These studies also show that "about half of all
domestic violence is  bidirectional, with both parties
participating in the aggression."  This contrasts sharply with
the statistics bandied about by some  women's  advocates which
purport to show that 94 percent of battered women  never hit
back.
 
The truth appears to be that violence within marriage and other
intimate relationships goes both ways. For example, the data for
gay  and lesbian couples show about the same rate of violence as
for  intergender couples.  But these more balanced statistics do
not serve  the political goals of the gender warriors who would
have us believe  that only women are victims and only men are
aggressors.
 
There is, of course, some truth to the widespread belief that men
are  more violent than women. In general, men do commit far more
crimes of violence than women do, but their primary victims tend
to  be other men, often strangers. It  is also true that when it
comes to  severe violence within families, men are  more often
the aggressors  and women more often the victims. But even the
statistics on  intergender murder the most serious form of
violence appear to be exaggerated. Both CNN and the Associated
Press have repeated  radical feminist  claims that 4,000 women a
year are murdered by  their current or former mates.  But the
Federal Bureau of  Investigation which keeps the crime statistics
for the nation puts the  number at between 1,300 and 1,400. Even
the number of women who kill their husbands or boyfriends is
sometimes exaggerated,  when it serves the political agendas of
those reporting the data.  FBI  statistics put that figure at
between 600 and 700.  Yet the National  Clearinghouse for Defense
of Battered Women puts out a statistic  claiming that between 800
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]


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+++ r_940920 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (780)
To:      Mike Pittman                           14 Sep 94 14:50:10
Subject: Haiti Invasion                         

MP>  So we are going to invade Haiti.  10,000 of our finest 
MP>  young people and 256 members of the Carribean Beach Patrol 
MP>  will hit the beaches of Haiti to restore Democracy.  Or at 
MP>  least try to finally create a Democracy.

     Minor correction.  The Beach Patrol comes in after the 
country is secured by US Forces.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (781)
To:      Jack Wilder                            14 Sep 94 14:54:10
Subject: Involuntary Servitude                  

 JB>  * OLX 2.2 * Dan Quayle: The EDLIN of Vice Presidents.
 LT> 
 LT> Isn't that supposed to be "EDSEL"?

JW>         Nah!  Edsel was a classy car, but edlin
JW>   was a useless editor!(;->*
     
     It permits you to code directly in  .ZIP format just like 
the users manual is written.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am a chiropractor.  I adjust the human spine.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (782)
To:      Bob Klahn                              14 Sep 94 15:01:10
Subject: LIMBAUGH'S REIGN OF                    

 CS>  Yes, traditionally, but the executive branch does not HAVE 
 CS>  to submit a budget, and when it does, it is merely a 
 CS>  suggestion.

BK>    If, however, the executive branch does submit a budget, 
BK>    then the executive branch should submit a balanced 
BK>    budget, or not ask for a balanced budget amendment.  If 
BK>    you ask for a rule that will make me do what you cannot 
BK>    demonstrate the capability to do, please don't expect me 
BK>    to be overly enthusiastic about it.  After 12 years of 
BK>    Reagan/Bush unbalanced budgets, Reagan/Bush lose all 
BK>    credibility regarding a balanced budget amendment.

     Let me try to explain this one more time.  By LAW (around 
1948 I think) the President must submit a primary budget that 
includes the actual costs of executing the laws of the land as 
passed.  If that requires a deficit so be it.
     
     It is in the addendums where he proposes the changes he 
desires.  Reagan did propose a balanced budget in the addendums 
for at least the first two years however they are no more than 
suggestions to Congress.  

     Reagan in fact did propose major increases for the military 
to recover from years of neglect.  In order to get then Congress 
insisted he go along with massive increases in social programs 
else he would get nothing.  After all, to Congress, social 
programs are more important than national defense.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<:            I come in peace.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (783)
To:      Linda Terrell                          14 Sep 94 15:09:10
Subject: Rights & Freedoms                      

DK>  MW>   As to the blue toilet, yes, in Hamilton Wentworth, you pay extra
DK> property
DK>    >tax if you install a coloured toilet.
DK>  
DK>  The Canadians have a special tax on colored toilets???

LT>    they used to have a tax on steps leading to a house's front door

     In Canada colored toilets and steps are luxury items.  Who 
needs steps to a hovel?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (784)
To:      All                                    14 Sep 94 16:42:10
Subject: Foster Suicide Questi 1/2              

 * Forwarded by MATT GIWER from the POLITICS conference.
 * Original from MIKE PIETRANTONI to ALL on 09-10-94.

The following is taken from a full page ad that appeared in the
New York Times 08:28:94 p16 World in Review Section. Since I
don't have the time to type in a full page of the NYT, I am here
reproducing the most relevant portions of this ad.
                      
Headline: Vincent Foster's Death: Was It A Suicide ?
What You Are Asked To Believe:

     To believe that Vincent Foster's deaths was simply a routine
suicide, one must accept a number of unusual premises found in
the Fiske and Park Police reports.
     Foster, a devoted family man with three children, left no
suicide note, bade no farewell and made no final arrangements.
     Foster left work inmid-day, after eating a full lunch, to
take his own life violently.
     Foster's activities are totaly unaccounted for from the time
he left the White House at 1PM, until his body was found shortly
after 6PM.
     Foster took his White House electronic pager, and drove to a
small, obscure Virginia park he was never known to have visited
before.
     Foster walked 600 feet through the wooded park WITHOUT
GETTING A TRACE OF SOIL ON HIS SHOES OR CLOTHING (ACCORDING TO
FBI ANALYSIS).
     Foster climbed down the side of a steep slope, in order to
sit down amidst knee-high foiliage.
     The gun had only two bullets (NO MATCHING BULLETS WERE FOUND
IN HIS HOME).
     Foster fired the gun using his right hand, even though,
according to the Boston Globe, he was left-handed.
     Despite the explosive recoil, the gun remained in his
"opposite" hand.
     Although Foster allegedly had placed the gun's barrel deep
into his mouth, NO BLOOD WAS VISIBLE ON THE GUN, NO TEETH WERE
DAMAGED OR BROKEN, and save for some powder debris on the wound
itself, NO POWDER BURNS WERE FOUND IN THE MOUTH.
     NO FINGERPRINTS WERE FOUND ON THE GUN, which was found
neatly at his side.
     Despite the violent manner of death, his body fell into a
stereotypical death position WITH ARMS ARRANGED PERFECTLY AT HIS
SIDES, as "if he was ready for the coffin," as one paramedic put
it.
     Only a small amount of blood was seen on the front of
Foster's body.
                 WHY WE ALL SHOULD CARE
     As Deputy White House Counsel, he was the highest ranking
federal official to die under mysterious circumstances in 30
years. What happened to Vincent Foster is of concern to every
American.
     Was there a Whitewater connection to Foster's death?
     On July 20, 1993, the night Vincent Foster died, at least
three senior Whitehouse aides - Bernard Nussbaum, Patsy Thomason
and Maggie Williams- admitted they enterred Foster's office and
removed files. WHY WERE THESE SENIOR AIDS, LATEAT NIGHT, AND ONLY
HOURS AFTER FOSTER'S UNTIMELY DEATH, RUSHING INTO HIS OFFICE TO
REMOVE FILES? wHAT FILES, IN ADDITION TO WHITEWATER, WERE TAKEN
FROM THE OFFICE AND LATER, FROM HIS SAFE?
     Despite the importance of these matters:
     Two Congressional "Whitewater" committees have already
chosen to avoid addressing the serious issues of Foster's death.
     Despite having the authority AND WITHOUT EXPLANATION, former
independent Counsel Robert Fiske, REFUSED TO CONVENE A GRAND JURY
FOR HIS PROBE INTO FOSTER'S DEATH.
     Similarly, FISKE ALSO DID NOT USE A GRAND JURY  for the
investigation into the removal of documents from Foster's office.
     AND NO GRAND JURY WAS USED to look into charges that the
White House and Justice Department may have obstructed justice by
deliberately keeping the FBI out of the Foster death
investigation, in favor of the less experienced Park Police
               We Have A Right To Know
     Don't we all deserve answers to the following questions?
     Where was Foster in the hours prior to his death?
     Why didn't Fiske investigate the hairs which the FBI found
on Foster's clothing?
     Why didn't the government investigate hoaw carpet fibers of
various colors came to be all over his expensive clothing?
     Why was Judge William Sessions hurriedly fired the day
BEFORE Foster's death, leaving NO PERMANEnt HEAD OF THE FBI FOR
SEVERAL WEEKS?
     Was the investigation, AS SESSIONS HAS CHARGED, "compromised
from the beginning" by this action?
     Why were the Park Police given EXCLUSIVE JURISDICTION over
the investigation of the death of such a high-ranking White House
official?
     Why was an INEXPERIENCED OFFICER - SOMEONE WHO HAD NEVER
CONDUCTED A HOMICIDE PROBE - permitted to serve as LEAD
INVESTIGATOR?
     Why did the Park Police, within hours of Foster's death,
GIVE AWAY CRITICAL PIECES OF EVIDENCE, like Foster's pager? And
the next day, his personal effects?
     How could the most elemental part of any homicide
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (787)
To:      Bob Mcdonald                           14 Sep 94 23:43:10
Subject: "CRIME" BILL                           

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to BOB MCDONALD in the POLITICS conference.

 MG> As Bill Clinton said, niggers can't read but they sho' can 
BM>      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
 MG> play basketball.
BM>      ^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^

BM>   Would you mind telling us where and when he said this.  Of 
BM>  is this some of your garbage that you have made up.

     BTW:  I heard another suggestion tonight for Earl Pitts.

     Every convenience store should be fitted with a basketball 
net and a basketball by the door.  Then instead of robbing the 
store they will start to play basketball and crime will stop at 
it source.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Rush Limbaugh is too humble.  -- Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (794)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 01:08:10
Subject: Republic or Democracy 1/2              

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the BAYCHAT conference.

                      Republic or Democracy
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/15>

     The difference between a Democracy and a Republic and that
the US is a Republic has been hashed out so many times over the
years it is hard to find a new angle on the discussion.  But
there is a new angle that coverage of Congress has forced us all
to recognize.
     Of course the United States in all places save for those
with the  town meeting tradition is a representative democracy
which is referred to as a Republic.  There are many reasons
advanced to promote a Republic over a Democracy.
     We are also a Constitutional Republic meaning that there are
fundamental of our government embodied in the our Constitution
that take more than a simple majority of Congress and
Presidential concurrance to change.  But as Constitutional
limitations can apply to both a pure democracy and to a republic
that is hardly a relevent consideration to determine which is
better if either.
     Thus the great fear of a pure democracy vanishes under the
imposition of a Constitution.  Majority limits such as we have
now with 2/3 and 3/4 majorities required on major issues would
keep volitile changes to the constitution in check much as they
do now.
     So what do we gain from a republican form of government?
There are several minor arguments in its favor but the major one
is that we get professionals who can spend full time carefully
considering the issues involved with legislation and vote
accordingly.  The argument is made that the average citizen does
not have the time to do that.
     Pardon me but is this not the same Congress that just last
month was voting on a health reform that no one had read?  Have
we not been seeing examples of this every time a bill comes up
for a vote?  Not one of them has read it but they are voting on
it.
     Under these circumstances I fail to see how a yeah or ney
vote differs from a coin toss.  Perhaps I am missing something.
Perhaps there are thousands of paid staffers reading every word
and advising our representatives?  But then when there were votes
of the Health reform bill there is clearly NO WAY anyone, staffer
or no, could have read every revised small type word on 1400+
pages in a few days much less present an informed opinion on it.
     It appears we are not getting informed representation and as
such I do not see the difference between what we are getting and
what a pure democracy would give us.
     Perhaps our representatives are voting based upon a
political philosophy rather than upon the facts.  Although a case
can be made for that being a good idea they never campaign upon
the philosophy upon which they vote so, even if true, it is of no
value in casting a vote.  So again, what we get is no different
than a direct vote by the people on laws.
     I could suggest, but not with a straight face, that our
representatives keep their fingers upon the pulse of their
constituency and vote accordingly.  On almost every major vote in
the last five years the vote of the representative has been
contrary to the phone calls, faxes, and letters of their
constituency.  So we are certainly not getting a proxy vote out
of them.
     It appears in our government all of the theoretical
advantages of a Republic over a Democracy have remained
theoretical.  We appear to get none of them.
     We do not get reasoned consideration of the proposed laws.
We do not get proxy representation.  We do not get a political
philosophy implemented.
     Is it any wonder people are so disgusted that a squeeky
voiced millionaire from Texas can draw such a large fraction of
the vote simply by sounding different?  People have realized they
have no the process of selection of representatives has
absolutely no connection to what happens in government in any
manner whatsoever.  That people are frustrated is an
understatement.
     And of course the reason is they are not getting what they
were told they would get by voting.  Those who voted for George
Bush and those on his coattails voted for no new taxes.  Two
years later they got new taxes.  Those who voted for Clinton and
his supporters voted for a laundry list of things and, in a list
too long to present, got just the opposite, the middle class tax
cut perhaps leads the list.
     Those are easy examples.  For the rest of the 535 elected
officials you will need to compare the reasons you voted for the
person against their voting record and make up your own list.
Are you getting what you voted for?  If you have contacted him
did you get what you wanted?  If you have access to the number of
calls pro and con a subject he received compare that to his
vote.  Most likely his vote was exactly the opposite.
     And on top of that we have the blatant hypocrisy and lies by
our representatives.  Can individuals in a Democracy do any worse
than that?
     Our founding fathers were abhorant of the idea of a pure
democracy.  We now have everything they feared about a pure
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (795)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 01:08:10
Subject: Republic or Democracy 2/2              

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

democracy save it is being done by a small number of people
rather than by the population at large.
     They also warned a pure democracy would lead to tyranny.  I
can not imagine anyone viewing our government's attacks upon the
Bill of Rights as seeing it on any road other than toward
tyranny.
     Welcome to the limited democracy of the United States where
we democratically choose our a few to be the tyrants amongst us.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (826)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 13:10:10
Subject: The Power of Government                

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                     The Power of Government
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/15>

     There are enough perverted concepts of the power of the
federal and state governments that it warrants discussion.
     First and foremost the idea that the government has the
ultimate power over the country simply by virtue of its
existence.  Following from this is the assertion that the Supreme
Court is in fact the ultimate arbiter of the government.
Essentially this is saying that once the governments are
established the people have only the powers specified by those
governments in their constitutions.
     This is contrary to the very concept of government upon
which this country was founded.  The founding principle of our
country is that governments are created by the people to protect
the rights of the people.  Nothing more and nothing less.
     This is not a principle which permits the government to
become the arbiter of what is for the good of the people.  The
people determine what is good for them and direct the government
to implement that good.
     There are various means to do this, primarily the ballot box
with the election of representatives to ensure that is what the
government does.  Additionally there is also the traditional
right to petition the government to alleviate individual and
group hardships a particular law or policy may cause even though
it may be for the general good.
     Our country is not based upon the principle that we are
limited to the means specified in the Constitution if the
government begins to act contrary to the interests of the people.
The principle is not that any branch of the government including
the Supreme Court is the final arbiter of the good of the people.
     Our government is based upon the principle that the people
are the ultimate arbiters of their own good without exception.
Our country is also founded upon the principle that it is the
duty of the people to overthrow a government that is acting
contrary to the good of the people.  We have no principle of
government that limits the means the people can use to control or
overthrow such a government.
     Today we have two political parties controlling so much
power that they have no need to listen to the ballot box.  We
have legions of civil servants with the real power in government
who can not be controlled by the elected officials.
     I ask you, was the size of the House of Representatives
limited to 435 members because more would be unwieldy or because
it would be too representative?  Are the state laws for getting
on the ballot to prevent frivolous candidate from confusing the
election or is it to keep third, fourth and fifth parties off of
the ballot?  Are we subservient to a law being found in
conformance with the Constitution regardless of the harm it does
to us?
     I would answer a larger House would be too reprsentative for
the purposes of our government; that the purpose of election laws
are to keep alternatives to the two parties off of the ballot;
that we are emphatically not bound by laws that are merely in
technical compliance with the Constitution.
     Our obligation is not to overthrow the Constitution but to
overthrow those who subvert the Constitution.  We are not bound
to live with those who proclaim how clever they were to subvert
the Constitution, to pass laws contrary to the Constitution
without technically violating the Constitution.  We are obligated
to overthrow those who establish a policy of doing the same thing
without benefit of laws.  We are not bound by the decisions of a
court holding the lack of technical violation is a green light
for the laws and policies to continue in force.
     We are not obligated to limit our methods to the ballot box
which has been subverted nor to petitioning elected officials who
do not listen nor to civil servants who can change nothing and
could care less.  We are not obligated to limit our methods to
written and spoken protest.  In short, we are not limited to
peaceful means of overthrowing those who are subverting our
Constitution and our country.
     We have the power of the threat of violent overthrow as well
as the actual violent overthrow of the current power political
structure in our country.  We have the absolute obligation to
take action against laws and persons who are acting against the
general good of the people of the our country.
     We, the people, are the final arbiters of whether or not the
government and the actions of the government are in our best
interests.  That is the basic principle of our country.  We have
the obligation and the power to overthrow those who are
subverting the Constitution to the point of acting against our
good.  This is our sacred duty.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (827)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 13:14:10
Subject: Zealot for Liberty    1/2              

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                       Zealot for Liberty
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/8>

     Zealotry is cherished by the patriot and abhorred by the
politician.  A patriot will defend every principle of our country
regardless of expedience while a politician will tear down every
principle of our country in the name of expedience.  The patriot
and the politician are mutually exclusive approaches to the
nation.
     The patriot works for the preservation of the country as it
was when started while the politician works to solve immediate
problems.  Where the patriot will defend every jot and tittle of
the Constitution, the politician will compromise it as seems most
needful to solve the moment's ills.
     Today's problems do have to be solved and expediency is a
tempting solution.  But in politics when a change is made
revisiting it is rare.  Rather the political solution to a failed
change is more of the same kind of change.  If the laws against
drugs do not stop drugs, pass more laws.
     But when avoiding, reinterpreting, or flat out violating the
Constitution is what is expedient that is when the patriot
objects.  And it is a knee jerk reaction.  No matter what the
good the Constitution shall not be touched.
     The reason is as with any other law, if the first bruising
of the Constitution does not work then it is certain the fix for
the failure will be a major contusion to the Constitution.  That
is the reason for the knee jerk, zealous reponse.
     For example, no knock search warrants were permitted in the
mid-1960s because marijuana could be flushed.  Searching bags in
plain sight for a traffic stop, air port searches, breath tests
all lead to such an erosion to the 4th amendment that it is now
official government policy to conduct searches of homes in
violation of the 4th amendment.
     Knowing government for what it is and what it will do does
not require pausing to spell out exactly what the objection is to
any particular government action that appears in violation of the
Constitution.  It makes it incumbent upon the government to prove
to the contrary that its actions are not a violation.  Expediency
is not an acceptable justification.
     And when the government continues to work to violate the
constitution, in fact making it government policy redoubling
one's efforts at verbal and written objection is justified even
though it fails as violent revolution is the alternative.
     That such zealotry will lead to violent revolution is a
personal decision for everyone.  Continued violations of the
rights of the people will continue to create incidents worthy of
revolution.  It is not the patriots who will start it.
     Objections will continue to come from the politicians and
those who see expediency as wrothy, those who can not remember
running for a plane without a metal detector to slow them down.
They have forgotten the days when there was no reason to expect
their front door to be smashed down by the police because of a
wrong address.  They have forgotten the days when they would walk
into any store and leave with a gun.
     Times have changed but certainly not for the better but that
is also forgotten.  Every restriction has been followed by an
increase in the reason for the restriction.  Thus we have two
forms of zealotry in competition.  The zealotry of government
never giving up on a failed approach and the zealotry of the
patriot continuing to object to a failed approach in the same
manner.
     In this regard I consider myself a zealot against the
continued erosion of the Constitution.  I care not the Supreme
Court disagrees with me.  I care not that the politicians
disagree with me.  I care not there are complex legal issues
which make everything I object to all OK with the Constitution.
     I do not live with complex legal issues and justifications.
I live with what it means to me and mine.  What I see happening
to others I expect to happen to me eventually as there is no
control upon the government once, like the camel, its nose is in
the tent.
     And no, I do not like the word patriot.  It has been
overused by those who have objected to the government because of
the most paranoid creations of the human mind, from international
banking to the UN being given control of the country.
     Patriot is a word that needs be reserved for those who
actually fight when the government provokes the revolution.  It
is not a self proclaimed title, it is an earned title given by
the grateful for the risk and hopefully for the success.  Until
that happens we are all no more than zealots.
     Wowever as zealots as we use our verbal and written methods
of objecting we must always convey to our audience that we expect
the government to provoke a revolution if it continues.  They
have to realize that some day us zealots will become secondary
and patriots will arise to start the revolution.
     People are going to laugh at this I know.  Humor is
inappropriate as there are thousands training for the inevitable
provocation by the government.  And by the well known way the
government works, in the face of rebellion the provocations will
be increased.
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (828)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 13:14:10
Subject: Zealot for Liberty    2/2              

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

     I am not even remotely exaggerating.  The first time the
warrantless search of a home results a few deaths of the
searchers caused by the searchees the government will decide
searches need be increased not decreased.  That is the way of
government.
     There is no way short of a major turn around in the trend of
government that is unprecedented that can avoid the government's
form of zealotry that can stop the coming disastrous revolution.
     Now you have the opportunity to either choose a side or
choose to remain neutral and be distrusted by both sides.  Most
will choose neutrality; that is a given.  The neutrals will be
those who justify the actions of the government including all
provocations.  The patriots attract no supporters save among
themselves.
     Live with it.  This is the world we have already entered.
The only way to turn it back is for the government to turn back
and that is a most impossible dream.
     Welcome to the real new world order.

                          * * * * *

       Further distribution is encouranged by the author.

  Matt Giwer 1425 San Mateo Dr. Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (829)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 13:16:10
Subject: Meaning of the 2nd    1/3              

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                     What the 2nd Really Means
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/13>

     There are very few words in the 2nd Amendment and most
people do not have the slightest idea of their meaning or what
was being referred to.  I have put together an extensive file of
materials around this Amendment however I find it still necessary
to discuss what the words mean.
     The words are simple --
     A well regulated mlitia, being necessary for the security of
a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms,
shall not be infringed.
     The first term to explain is militia.  The militia of the
time was comprised of all adult males in law.  In rhetoric people
felt so strongly of it that it was all the people.  Words such
as, "what is the militia?  It is the whole of the people" were
common.
     This was both rhetoric and statement of the intention of the
new Constitution as the fear was exactly that the central
government would move to oppress the people, to take away god
given rights, and the only means to stop such an occurence was
with the use of the force of arms by the citizens of the states.
     One needs to remember that United States citizenship had not
been invented at that time.  The Constitution was solely an
agreement between the states for mutual cooperation and general
benefit of the people.  The preamble "We the People of the United
States" was not a statement of the concept of citizenship as all
citizen interation with the US government was via the state
governments.
     The militia was separate and distinct from any army as both
the militia and armies are addressed separately in Article 1,
Section 8 of the Constitution.  It is not debatable that the
intent of the Constitution was to severely limit the existence of
standing armies by requiring funding be limited to two years
intervals while it put no such limitation upon the Navy.  Further
the first Militia Act set no limits whatsoever upon the militia
but only sets minimum standards.
     This concept of the militia was a continuation from before
the country began and continues down to the present day.  The
idea of an armed citizenry as the primary means of defense
extends back at least one thousand years in English Law.  It is
found in the Magna Carta and in laws requiring certain types of
arms by one's station in life.  It continues today in the United
States Code.
     Today's United States Code varies little from the original
concept from England.  Every male from 18 to 45 is a member and
women are mentioned in the National Guard.  The USC clearly
distinguishes between the National Guard as the organize militia
and the unorganized militia as the rest of us.  The militia is a
very old concept and holds simply that the defense of the
community is based upon the members of the community just as the
defense of the family depends upon the family.
     The modifier to militia, that being a well regulated
militia, is perhaps the most misunderstood.  In those days
regulated did not mean the same as passing regulations.  Thus,
the fact there are no regulations does not negate the existence
of the militia today.
     Well regulated meant creating a degree of uniformity that
would increase the militia's effectiveness.  The original Militia
Act passed by Congress did exactly that, establishing the age
limits, the minimum size of rifle bore and other things with
which every member was required by law to equip himself.
     Note the last term, equip himself.  No government provided
these weapons or equipment.  This too goes back far into English
history.  Thus you can see the imporance of imposing some degree
of uniformity or, in the word of the day, regulation.  When
people provide their own equipment they could have shown up with
blunderbusses, shotguns, squirrel guns (small bore), even
pistols.  The variety of support equipment such as spare flints,
patches, shot would not have lead to effectiveness.  Thus, a
uniform, a well regulated militia was what was necessary.
     The next term is state.  That meant exactly the word state
as in the United States of America.  It meant state as in state
of Virginia or state of New York.  It did not mean state as in a
reference to nation such as Germany or England and obviously not
to the United States as that is a plural name.
     The necessity of the militia for a free state was against
the power of the new government of the United States of America.
A powerful central government was viewed with the greatest
trepidation.  It was clearly expected a central government would
become oppressive to the states and the people of the states.
Jefferson clearly expected a central government to become
perverted so quickly that he expected a revolution every twenty
years.
     This concern is clear in the construction of the
Constitution to grant the new government certain specific powers
and no more powers, reserving to the states and the people all
rights not specifically granted to the new government.  As to the
militia it was granted the power of regulation which meant to
establish the minimum requirements for the militias of the states
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (830)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 13:16:10
Subject: Meaning of the 2nd    2/3              

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

as it was also granted to power to call out the state militias to
suppress insurrection and repel invasions and thus some kind of
national uniformity was necessary.
     The US government was not given the power to prohibit guns
to the militia (and thus the citizens who were it members as
establishing uniformity of weaponry would not fall under the
meaning of regulation.  Again, as to the stated meaning at the
time, "that no man be debarred the use of guns," is a typical
statement.  This was not empty rhetoric but rather a promise
required to establish the US Constitution in the first place.  As
a social contract it is pre-eminent.
     Many of the founders, those who wrote or supported the new
Constitution, expressed exactly the concern in that it was for
the defense of the freedom of each state and in fact in the 2nd
itself with reference to the free state.  The new central
government was granted very few and limited powers with regard to
the militias.  What was not granted was the most significant
power, the power of organization and the appointment of
officers.
     The right of the people would appear to hardly need an
explanation but to many it does.  The people refers to exactly
who it says, the people, you and me.  Of course that is now and
always has been almost synonymous with the people but there is
not the slightest indication there was ever the slightest
intention to make militia participation a condition on the
possession of guns.
     Even if the arugument is forwarded that it refers only the
members of the militia, the response is that "the militia is the
whole of the people."  That is part of the contract for the very
existence of the US Government.  Contract violation leads to
dissolution of the contract.  It is not a matter for arbitration
or dispute, the contract is dissolved at that point.
     Keep and bear arms of course keep and bear means possession,
ownership, control and use of.  This was limited in no way to
those actually participating in the militia any more than it
would be reasonable to limit books to very literate people.  
     Arms meant the military arms of the time, pistols, rifles
and cannon and the then exotic but primitive weapons of the time
such as rockets.  There were no central armories, only powder
magazines and that was only because of the harzard of storing
large amounts of black powder in one place, that special
conditions were needed for safety.
     There is no suggestion that any type of weapon was
considered unsuitable for a citizen to keep and carry.  In fact
the first requirement on the militia, one of the powers delegated
to Congress was to set the minimum requirement for the weapons
that had to be owned by all men of militia age and these were
those most effective in combat.  By any rational consideration
today it is precisely military style weapons that would be
protected from any restrictions while hunting weapons might be
open to restrictions.
     The one that feels the strangest to explain is, shall not be
infringed.  To those who appear to misunderstand that I often
reply, which part of "shall not be infringed" don't you
understand?  It means simply there shall be no limitations upon
the right to keep and bear arms.
     As to this intepretation changing over time you will find in
every state Constitution a provision almost identical to the
2nd  Amendment, many times going further in the guarantee of the
reasons for the provision to include self defense and always
adding the defense of the state.  Considering these provisions
are in the Constitutions of Hawaii and Alaska which were admitted
in the 1950s it is difficult to accept there was any change in
meaning up until that time some 170 years later.
     There is no possible way to make the case that in the 1950s
when every modern weapon existed that a case can be made for a
change in the meaning of the words in less than 40 years.  Those
state consitutions were formally approved by Congress as part of
the process for those territories to become states.  It is
obvious Congress agreed with the words as wrtten at that time.
     The 2nd Amendment does have a clear meaning that, when
viewed in the context of the intentions, traditions, customs and
word usage of the time, the meaning is clear.  Everyone has the
right to guns.  It is also clear the objections raised to that
meaning are based upon a failure to understand the 2nd Amendment
in its historic context.
     As to the need for reinterpreting it in light of today, no
one can rationally hold that the US Government is not more
oppressive and burdensome today than it has ever been in its
entire history.  And the concern that that might happen is
precisely the purpose for the 2nd Amendment.  To argue it is no
longer needed flies in the face of precisely what is happening.
     Another favored fall back argument is that the citizens
could not prevail against the power of the US Government in
combat.  That is a clarion call to begin dismantling the power of
the US Government before it becomes more blatantly oppressive.
It is certainly not a justification to disarm.  A preemptive
surrender is not an effective deterence.
     Another is the attempt to push the clear meaning to an
absurd level, saying it must include nuclear weapons, and since
that is unacceptable then it is legitimate to restrict handguns.
This is similar to saying that since there is a legitimate public
interest in preventing a person from owning a pride of lions and
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (831)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 13:16:10
Subject: Meaning of the 2nd    3/3              

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

letting them loose in the neighborhood that the ownership of
housecats can be prohibited.
     Rather a similar rule of prudence would apply requiring the
owner of the lions to provide adequate cages so to would
reasonable safeguards be required of those who would own nuclear
weapons.  There have been similar laws regarding powder magazines
as far back as people began storing black powder.
     The most insidious reason is to point to today's crime rate
as a reason to disarm the citizenry.  This flies in the face of
many state Constitutions in that possession for self defense is
specifically guaranteed by state Constitutions.  But the
insidious nature of this argument is that it only disarms the
victims never the criminals.
     Clearly, in the face of simply knowing what was intended and
implemented by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, arguments
holding guns can be restricted fall.  The right of everyone to
keep and bear arms is more than clearly protected by the 2nd
Amendment.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Drive, Dunedin Fl 34698

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (845)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 14:45:10
Subject: Dealing with Crime    1/2              

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                       Dealing with Crime
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/15>

     We gave constituted our government by delegating to them
certain powers that relate to crime, primarily the law
enforcement agencies that flow from those constitutions.  Among
those are the state, county and local police as well as the
necessary federal agencies needed to enforce federal laws.
     However, in delegating the power to enforce laws we at no
time prohibited ourselves from acting to prevent the violation of
the law.  We simply established professional groups to do the job
full time.  At no time did we surrender the power to only the
government.
     It is part of the law that a person who fails to report his
knowledge of a felony before, during or after the fact without
good cause is liable to prosecution.  We obligate ourselves to be
part of the process.
     Yet we often hear that we do not need guns because the
police exist in total disregard of the fact the police are under
no obligation to provide protection. The police are primarily to
find the perpetrator after the crime has been committed.  The
standard TV show depicts the police much better than the movies
where they are always at the right place and time when the action
begins.
     No one expects Sargeant Friday to protect them.
     So where does protection come from?  If we are not to become
passive victims of crime and maybe to live to report it later
then we are responsible for our own defense and protection.  As
what applies to us applies to our neighborhoods we are also
responsible for them.
     And the police are not adverse to that in the least.  They
promote Neighborhood Watch Groups.  They often give free
marksmanship courses or at least freely give out the recommended
places to get good and affordable courses.
     Contrary to what the senior police officials have to say to
keep their jobs, the rest are very much in favor of the armed
citizen taking responsibility for themselves and their
neighborhoods.
     That the citizens, you and me, have an obligation to protect
ourselves and our neighborhood is no more in question than that
we have the obligation of national defense as part of the
militia.  That some would deny the means of providing the means
of that protection, that is the same guns the police use, does
not alleviate the obligation.  The only difference is that after
guns are prohibited we are limited to the use of harsh language
in fulfilling that obligation.
     Thus again the purpose of the gun laws is the disarmament of
the victims not of the criminals.  When we can not obtain a gun
without violating the law that will make no difference to those
who have a gun for the purpose of making breaking the law easier.
When a person steals a getaway car the crime to be committed
makes car theft the least of the intended crimes.  The same too
with illegal gun possession.
     Most states have a rarely applied law of a mandatory five
years for the use of a gun in the commission of a crime.  The
mere illegal possession of a gun generally has a lesser penalty
save in the crime capitals of the country.  Of course the crime
capitals are those which almost never enforce laws against mere
possession or possession in the commission laws.
     However for the citizen defending himself, defense is not a
crime but gun possession is.  And when there is only one crime
involved there are no lesser charges.  The victim will be
prosecuted for defending himself in an effective manner as was
Bernie Goetz.
     Thus the conclusion that gun bans are victim disarmament
laws is inescapable.  If the so called assault weapons that were
recently banned are so effective are they not then the one most
useful in self defense?  Why should thier procurement be limited
only to criminals while punishing only the victim for their
possession?
     As the existence of the police does not eliminate the
obligation of self defense it certainly can not take away the
right to self defense.  And with this obligation comes the right
to clean up your neighborhood if it starts going downhill.  That
means the obligation to hustle the bums and the teeagers off of
the streets at night just as the police do it in the "better"
neighborhoods.
     Doing so at the beginning prevents the neighborhood from
continuing to degrading to a a haven for drugs and prostitution
and the crimes that come with it.  
     And if a neighborhood has already gone that far and if calls
to the police achieve no response then it is incumbent upon the
residents to clean up the neighborhood themselves.  And any
government that takes away the means to do that while permitting
it to happen has lost the right to govern.  Any government that
contributes to the situation with half way houses and welfare
houses has lost the power to govern.
     This is our country.  This is our government.  And we have
the absolute and the final say over both the country and the
government.  No government we have established has the ability to
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (846)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 14:45:10
Subject: Dealing with Crime    2/2              

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

take away that final say save under threat of punishment.  And
such a government has lost the moral authority to govern.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (849)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 16:32:10
Subject: They're baaack                         

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to RICHARD DONOVAN in the POLITICS conference.

RD> From: HBCSC002@HUEY.CSUN.EDU     
RD> SUBJECT:US Town Invaded at night - USMC
RD> Organization: Calstate University Northridge

RD> [ Article crossposted from alt.fan.rush-limbaugh ]
RD> [ Author was john moore ]
RD> [ Posted on 8 Sep 1994 02:46:42 GMT ]

RD> Chilling report from the August 3 issue of the
RD> Augusta Chronicle of Augusta Georgia. Tybee Island,
RD> at the mouth of the Savannah River, was invaded late
RD> in the night sometime last July. 300 Marines from the
RD> 22nd Marine Exepeditionary Unit at Camp Lejeune descended
RD> in black helicopters on the unwary townspeople.

RD> According to Lt. Jeff Jurgensen at Camp Lejeune the late
RD> night operation was designed to "provide the Marines the
RD> opportunity to practice" evacuating US citizens who might
RD> be held against their will. Lt. Jurgensen said flyers were
RD> distributed about two hours before the invasion began but
RD> none of the flyers have so-far been recovered.

RD>  Mallory Pearce, a resident of Tybee described the event as 
RD>  a "real invasion".  He continued "The housetop was rattling 
RD>  a tree branch fell in my yard and troops came rushing 
RD>  through my property with guns drawn ...  They were hiding in 
RD>  bushes with weapons.  ...  I went outside and told the people 
RD>  to stop this, that it was tearing up my property.  One of 
RD>  them handed me a claims sheet..." When Mr.  Pearce told them 
RD>  they were violating the Constitution he was told to "get 
RD>  out of a restricted area"

     Amazing!  I thought it was impossible to violate the 3rd 
amendment these days.  Or maybe it is the 5th, with simple use of 
property without compenstation.  

     Unless people were actually evacuated (hopefully volunteers 
or soldiers) then it sounds like that was certainly NOT the 
objective of the exercise.  Rather it sounds more like securing 
an area with US construction and such.  Certainly hostages are 
not held in private homes over a wide area.

     Counterinsurgency training or gun search preparations 
perhaps.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Life's purpose is the other SOB dying for his beliefs.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1062)
To:      Pete Bucy                              17 Sep 94 18:58:10
Subject: Canadian piracy                        

 MG> I do not recall William the Conqueror slaughtering the 
 MG> Saxons and make a mound of their heads.  

 MG> Slaughtering or selling the survivors into slavery went out 
 MG> of style at least a 1000 years ago.

PB>     I guess that you missed WWII.

     I do not recall any slavery.  There were a few charges of 
slaughter after surrender but they were generally dismissed at 
the war crimes trials or trivial punishments vice executions.  

     The real few real atrocities were Japanese against POWs as I 
remember and it was not out of line with their standards.  Of 
course the Japanese are still not quite civilized.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: My every message, a conference unto itself.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1103)
To:      Jack Wilder                            18 Sep 94 09:09:00
Subject: Long winter                            

 DL>  In southern Arizona such a sighting would be labled a 
 DL>  "snowbird" spotting.
 MG> 
 MG> What is the license fee and bag limit there?

JW>         On the "snowbirds", or the "spotted
JW>   canadians"???

     Spotted Canadians.  The limited is very high here and 
unlimited if you can show they will not turn left on green and 
leave a Canadian quarter as a tip.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even Eternal Truth doesn't last forever.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1104)
To:      All                                    18 Sep 94 09:09:00
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                         Invading Haiti
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/16>

     On September 15th, 1994 at 9pm Eastern Standard Time we
heard President William Jefferson Clinton declare the invasion of
Haiti was in the interest of the security of the United States of
America.  He then went on to define our security being
threatened by the way Haitians were treating Haitians.
     We were left with the burning question.  Is he the president
of the United States or of the Dominican Republic?  I can see the
Dominican Republic being threatened by a lawless government in
Haiti but some how I can not imagine laying in survival gear here
in Tampa.
     Given the massive assets being committed to Haiti I had the
passing idea that he would announce at 9pm that the invasion of
Cuba had begun at 8pm in a brilliant military coup of
misdirection.  I was of course not disappointed.  He repeated his
slacked jawed bluster against Haiti.
     He did not mention the invasion was part of the deal with
the Black Caucus in Congress for their support of the crime bill.
He did not mention that the other justification was an attempt to
salvage his own credibility after his irresponsible threats.
     He did repeat his naive claim that the military leaders of
Haiti had broken their promise to leave.  Anyone who has followed
Presient Clinton's track record knows he is an expert in
identifying broken promises.  It would appear he is sanctioning a
military take over against himself for breaking promises.
     He did recount horror stories while failing to demonstrate a
one of them.  Much like the horror stories of Iraquis actions in
Kuwait turning out premature babies to ship the incubators to
Iraq he recounted executions of orphans.  Of course with a
straight face he expected us to believe him or perhaps be
believes it himself.
     And then, taking a cue from dozens of 1950s SciFi flicks and
from the recent Dolph Longhren movie he gave a message to the
Haitian people, We Come In Peace.  Now perhaps those 1950s movies
are still first run in Arkansas, perhaps they are cult classics,
but that does not reduce the sheer melodramatic corn of the line.
I do have a taste for B movies but that line is straight from
Plan Nine From Outer Space.
     OK, Haitians, we are coming in peace with half the assets we
used to turn around the war at sea in the Pacific in WW II.  If
we were not coming in peace we would be bringing some serious
assets to bear, like the entire Atlantic Fleet.  But you can tell
by two carrier battle groups (26 ships and four submarines) that
we come in peace and mean you no harm.
     You will be convinced we come in peace when you see a
thousand paratroopers falling from the sky.  When your country is
under the control of armed American troops you will know we have
come in peace.
     This boy is for real?  This a kid pretending to be a comic
book superhero.
     Enough.  All the fish in the barrel are dead.  I used an
assault weapon.
     This was the most "please like me" speech I have ever heard
from any politician in my life.  If I were to regard all speech
subject matter as equal and simply judge quality it is some place
between the Martin Van Buren innaugural address and a high school
Salutorian address.
     I will note by its absense any reference to "I" have
decided, "I" have directed, "I" have done anything.  It is
obvious "I" did not do a damn thing and is therefore not
responsible for any outcome.  He could not even deliver "your
time is up" with a "make my day" or "I'll be back" conviction.
     A dull monotone lacking in even the pretense of emotion or
conviction is a "please like me" speech.  The only thing good
about the speech was its brevity.  There is only so much NBC
quality programming that is acceptable on the airwaves.
     Whatever his prompting for the tone to set it went awry
under his skillful implementation.  Somber?  Decisive?  Grave?
No matter what the prompt it came out juvenile and stupid.  Even
Fearless Leader can do better than this for Boris and Natasha.
     But in any event we have the word of the mouthy horse.  We
are invading Haiti because our national security is threatened by
the way Haitians are treating Haitian.  I do not explain 'em.  I
only report 'em.  We have the word of The Clinton as to the
gospel truth of the reason for this killing of Haitians and the
loss of American lives.  And above all remember, We Come In
Peace.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< *                Barney Must Die!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1105)
To:      Chris Baugh                            18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUNNERS                       

 MG> You are stealing my parody style on the priorities of
 MG> Canadians. Do not do it again.

CB>  Has your parody style also been copyrighted?  

     Guido the Enforcer takes care of my style.  

Will you hire 
CB>  Mr.  Harris' attorney to file a lawsuit to stop DEBATE 
CB>  participants from saying things you don't like?

     What "don't like"?  I thought it was great.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am a chiropractor.  I adjust the human spine.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1106)
To:      John Steinson                          18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Role Models                            

MG>BS> Gays are more involved in violent crimes: as the victims.

MG>     That is only if you ignore gay on gay crime.  Of course
MG>thost stats can not be collected as those are love crimes.

JS>     Sort of reminds me of that great Hetrosexual past time:

JS>     Spousal abuse.

     And like NOW it is the "poor me" syndrome.  The first claim 
it is they are the victims.  Look into it and find the claims are 
ficticious.  You are very correct in putting gay on gay crime 
under spousal abuse.  

     Beyond that what I would like to see are statistics on death 
and injuries from voluntary sex practices in addition to formal 
crime.  True equality for gay would make death and injuries from 
voluntary sex practices a matter of criminal negligence.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I'm upping my standards, up yours.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1107)
To:      Kate Secrest                           18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Atheism                                

KS> Why would that "stardust" not be the "dust" of Genesis?
     
     Because ignorant, savage tribal goat herders made up the 
story that is why.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even Eternal Truth doesn't last forever.

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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3654/5




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1108)
To:      Lester Garrett                         18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Confederate Battle                     

LG> In a message to William Meriwether, dated 04 Sep 94, Martin Eble wrote:

LG>  Come on, Martin, that kind of thing is just asking for a 
LG>  response in kind and you know it.  Back it down.

     Meriwether was sent to the conference by god to test your 
ability not to post such messages to him.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: You only get six fouls per game.  Make them count.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1109)
To:      Lester Garrett                         18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Gore Waffles                           

LG> [Area: DEBATE]  [Subj: Gore Waffles 2/2]

LG> In a message to All, dated 05 Sep 94, Martin Eble wrote:

LG>  Why doesn't someone ask him about his gas hole.  You know, 
LG>  the one he warned was coming just as EPA funding was coming 
LG>  up -- and which, after the funding had been voted 
LG>  subsequently forgot to appear.

     What did I miss?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Dr. Gruber, get a life."  Dr. Herbert West

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1110)
To:      All                                    18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Seattle /Vancouver crime               

     Did anyone here save the comparison between crime in these 
two cities broken down by race?  Much appreciated if it could be 
posted again.

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1111)
To:      Kate Secrest                           18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Limbaugh's reign of o                  

KS>  Yes.  It is reasonable to assume that Foster would have 
KS>  taken the time to write a note but not bother to sign it.  
KS>  It is reasonable to assume that Foster would reasonably 
KS>  assume that he would be the only suicide "victim" in the 
KS>  near vicinity of the note and reasonably assume that those 
KS>  finding his body would reasonably assume that the body and 
KS>  the note went together, so to speak, and thus the body 
KS>  would reasonably serve as signature to the note.

     But is it reasonable to assume the missing piece, being the 
bottom right that would have contained the signature to be the 
piece that is missing?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Hansen Brothers; my kind of debaters.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1112)
To:      Lester Garrett                         18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Politics                               

LG>  If I'm not mistaken I believe that changed some years back.  
LG>  I think the Congress passed legislation which now requires 
LG>  that every Administration submit a budget proposal.

     Correct.  And it must be the cost of implementing the laws 
that have been passed.  Wish lists to increase or decrease those 
expenditures are addendums to the budget.  Submitting a balanced 
budget is not an option.

     Consider what it really is, an estimate of actual costs, 
nothing more.  It is NOT what he will spend.  It is an estimate 
of what is needed to do his job, executing the laws of the land.  
Whether or not he gets it is a party politics matter.  It has 
nothing to do with doing his job.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Don't give them your guns.  Give them your bullets.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1113)
To:      Pete Bucy                              18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: WANTED: SPERM DONORS                   

PB>     Mike, your humor is refreshing in an echo that can sometimes
PB>     be a little too serious. Your double entendres and fanciful
PB>     surnames keep me in stitches.

     They are all real.  He is French.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Born in 1945; the replacement for WW II.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1114)
To:      Jack Wilder                            18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Long winter                            

 DL>  In southern Arizona such a sighting would be labled a 
 DL>  "snowbird" spotting.
 MG> 
 MG> What is the license fee and bag limit there?

JW>         On the "snowbirds", or the "spotted
JW>   canadians"???

     Spotted Canadians.  The limited is very high here and 
unlimited if you can show they will not turn left on green and 
leave a Canadian quarter as a tip.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even Eternal Truth doesn't last forever.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1115)
To:      All                                    18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                         Invading Haiti
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/16>

     On September 15th, 1994 at 9pm Eastern Standard Time we
heard President William Jefferson Clinton declare the invasion of
Haiti was in the interest of the security of the United States of
America.  He then went on to define our security being
threatened by the way Haitians were treating Haitians.
     We were left with the burning question.  Is he the president
of the United States or of the Dominican Republic?  I can see the
Dominican Republic being threatened by a lawless government in
Haiti but some how I can not imagine laying in survival gear here
in Tampa.
     Given the massive assets being committed to Haiti I had the
passing idea that he would announce at 9pm that the invasion of
Cuba had begun at 8pm in a brilliant military coup of
misdirection.  I was of course not disappointed.  He repeated his
slacked jawed bluster against Haiti.
     He did not mention the invasion was part of the deal with
the Black Caucus in Congress for their support of the crime bill.
He did not mention that the other justification was an attempt to
salvage his own credibility after his irresponsible threats.
     He did repeat his naive claim that the military leaders of
Haiti had broken their promise to leave.  Anyone who has followed
Presient Clinton's track record knows he is an expert in
identifying broken promises.  It would appear he is sanctioning a
military take over against himself for breaking promises.
     He did recount horror stories while failing to demonstrate a
one of them.  Much like the horror stories of Iraquis actions in
Kuwait turning out premature babies to ship the incubators to
Iraq he recounted executions of orphans.  Of course with a
straight face he expected us to believe him or perhaps be
believes it himself.
     And then, taking a cue from dozens of 1950s SciFi flicks and
from the recent Dolph Longhren movie he gave a message to the
Haitian people, We Come In Peace.  Now perhaps those 1950s movies
are still first run in Arkansas, perhaps they are cult classics,
but that does not reduce the sheer melodramatic corn of the line.
I do have a taste for B movies but that line is straight from
Plan Nine From Outer Space.
     OK, Haitians, we are coming in peace with half the assets we
used to turn around the war at sea in the Pacific in WW II.  If
we were not coming in peace we would be bringing some serious
assets to bear, like the entire Atlantic Fleet.  But you can tell
by two carrier battle groups (26 ships and four submarines) that
we come in peace and mean you no harm.
     You will be convinced we come in peace when you see a
thousand paratroopers falling from the sky.  When your country is
under the control of armed American troops you will know we have
come in peace.
     This boy is for real?  This a kid pretending to be a comic
book superhero.
     Enough.  All the fish in the barrel are dead.  I used an
assault weapon.
     This was the most "please like me" speech I have ever heard
from any politician in my life.  If I were to regard all speech
subject matter as equal and simply judge quality it is some place
between the Martin Van Buren innaugural address and a high school
Salutorian address.
     I will note by its absense any reference to "I" have
decided, "I" have directed, "I" have done anything.  It is
obvious "I" did not do a damn thing and is therefore not
responsible for any outcome.  He could not even deliver "your
time is up" with a "make my day" or "I'll be back" conviction.
     A dull monotone lacking in even the pretense of emotion or
conviction is a "please like me" speech.  The only thing good
about the speech was its brevity.  There is only so much NBC
quality programming that is acceptable on the airwaves.
     Whatever his prompting for the tone to set it went awry
under his skillful implementation.  Somber?  Decisive?  Grave?
No matter what the prompt it came out juvenile and stupid.  Even
Fearless Leader can do better than this for Boris and Natasha.
     But in any event we have the word of the mouthy horse.  We
are invading Haiti because our national security is threatened by
the way Haitians are treating Haitian.  I do not explain 'em.  I
only report 'em.  We have the word of The Clinton as to the
gospel truth of the reason for this killing of Haitians and the
loss of American lives.  And above all remember, We Come In
Peace.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< *                Barney Must Die!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1116)
To:      Chris Baugh                            18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: CANADIAN GUNNERS                       

 MG> You are stealing my parody style on the priorities of
 MG> Canadians. Do not do it again.

CB>  Has your parody style also been copyrighted?  

     Guido the Enforcer takes care of my style.  

Will you hire 
CB>  Mr.  Harris' attorney to file a lawsuit to stop DEBATE 
CB>  participants from saying things you don't like?

     What "don't like"?  I thought it was great.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am a chiropractor.  I adjust the human spine.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1117)
To:      John Steinson                          18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Role Models                            

MG>BS> Gays are more involved in violent crimes: as the victims.

MG>     That is only if you ignore gay on gay crime.  Of course
MG>thost stats can not be collected as those are love crimes.

JS>     Sort of reminds me of that great Hetrosexual past time:

JS>     Spousal abuse.

     And like NOW it is the "poor me" syndrome.  The first claim 
it is they are the victims.  Look into it and find the claims are 
ficticious.  You are very correct in putting gay on gay crime 
under spousal abuse.  

     Beyond that what I would like to see are statistics on death 
and injuries from voluntary sex practices in addition to formal 
crime.  True equality for gay would make death and injuries from 
voluntary sex practices a matter of criminal negligence.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I'm upping my standards, up yours.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1118)
To:      Kate Secrest                           18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Atheism                                

KS> Why would that "stardust" not be the "dust" of Genesis?
     
     Because ignorant, savage tribal goat herders made up the 
story that is why.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even Eternal Truth doesn't last forever.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3654/5




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1119)
To:      Lester Garrett                         18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Confederate Battle                     

LG> In a message to William Meriwether, dated 04 Sep 94, Martin Eble wrote:

LG>  Come on, Martin, that kind of thing is just asking for a 
LG>  response in kind and you know it.  Back it down.

     Meriwether was sent to the conference by god to test your 
ability not to post such messages to him.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: You only get six fouls per game.  Make them count.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1120)
To:      Lester Garrett                         18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Gore Waffles                           

LG> [Area: DEBATE]  [Subj: Gore Waffles 2/2]

LG> In a message to All, dated 05 Sep 94, Martin Eble wrote:

LG>  Why doesn't someone ask him about his gas hole.  You know, 
LG>  the one he warned was coming just as EPA funding was coming 
LG>  up -- and which, after the funding had been voted 
LG>  subsequently forgot to appear.

     What did I miss?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Dr. Gruber, get a life."  Dr. Herbert West

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1121)
To:      All                                    18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Seattle /Vancouver crime               

     Did anyone here save the comparison between crime in these 
two cities broken down by race?  Much appreciated if it could be 
posted again.

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1122)
To:      Kate Secrest                           18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Limbaugh's reign of o                  

KS>  Yes.  It is reasonable to assume that Foster would have 
KS>  taken the time to write a note but not bother to sign it.  
KS>  It is reasonable to assume that Foster would reasonably 
KS>  assume that he would be the only suicide "victim" in the 
KS>  near vicinity of the note and reasonably assume that those 
KS>  finding his body would reasonably assume that the body and 
KS>  the note went together, so to speak, and thus the body 
KS>  would reasonably serve as signature to the note.

     But is it reasonable to assume the missing piece, being the 
bottom right that would have contained the signature to be the 
piece that is missing?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Hansen Brothers; my kind of debaters.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3654/5




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1123)
To:      Lester Garrett                         18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Politics                               

LG>  If I'm not mistaken I believe that changed some years back.  
LG>  I think the Congress passed legislation which now requires 
LG>  that every Administration submit a budget proposal.

     Correct.  And it must be the cost of implementing the laws 
that have been passed.  Wish lists to increase or decrease those 
expenditures are addendums to the budget.  Submitting a balanced 
budget is not an option.

     Consider what it really is, an estimate of actual costs, 
nothing more.  It is NOT what he will spend.  It is an estimate 
of what is needed to do his job, executing the laws of the land.  
Whether or not he gets it is a party politics matter.  It has 
nothing to do with doing his job.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Don't give them your guns.  Give them your bullets.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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SEEN-BY: 3619/25 3654/5




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1124)
To:      Pete Bucy                              18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: WANTED: SPERM DONORS                   

PB>     Mike, your humor is refreshing in an echo that can sometimes
PB>     be a little too serious. Your double entendres and fanciful
PB>     surnames keep me in stitches.

     They are all real.  He is French.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Born in 1945; the replacement for WW II.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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+++ r_940921 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (884)
To:      Buford F. Ledbetter                     2 Sep 94 16:30:10
Subject: Punishment for drugs                   

BL>  MG>                 Proper Punishment for Drug Crimes
BL>  MG>                                by
BL>  MG>                            Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/28>

BL>  (c)??   HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!  I seriously doubt you're going to 
BL>  have to worry about anyone plaigerizing this piece of 
BL>  rhetoric.

     Three messages and a phone call have already said otherwise.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (926)
To:      Michael Pilon                          18 Sep 94 10:23:10
Subject: AIRPLANE VISITS WHITE                  

MP>  MG>  Some months ago I posted a message saying how easy it would 
MP>  MG>  be to take off from National with a plane full of 
MP>  MG>  explosives and crash it into the White House.
MP>  MG> 
MP>  MG> .....
MP>  MG> 
MP>  MG>  Are there any further questions?

MP>  Yes Matt , I hear the FBI are looking for you, which route 
MP>  are you taking to Havana.  If you should wash up on shore in 
MP>  Haiti, remember never say "Mange de la marde" I think it 
MP>  means I am here to save you

     I'll be hijacking USAir 417 out of Tampa International on 
9/20.  

     As for what not to say, it translates as what Billie Jeff 
said, we come in peace.  He apparently never saw the movie with a 
similar name.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (927)
To:      Travis Beard                           18 Sep 94 10:25:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

TB>  MG>  Sorry about that folks.  It just happened.  9/12 a small 
TB>  MG>  aircraft crashed on the White House lawn.  It was not shot 
TB>  MG>  down.  The pilot died.  Had he the mind he could have had a 
TB>  MG>  hundred pounds of dynamite with an impact detonator and 
TB>  MG>  aimed a little better and hit the White House.

TB>  MG> Are there any further questions?

TB> Why wasn't Limbaugh on the plane?  :)

     It had to get off of the ground in the first place.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (928)
To:      Michael Pilon                          18 Sep 94 10:26:10
Subject: AMERICAN HYPERBOLE                     

MP>  -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to David Lentz <=-

MP>  MG> The RCAF continues to exist only in black and white movies.
MP>  MG> But then was it ever any more?

MP>  I'll have to ask my dad, he was a pilot instructor  in the 
MP>  RCAF and joined when the war began.  ( Oct 1939 for him).  He 
MP>  was a part of the Commonwealth Air training program that 
MP>  began with a force in 1939 of 3000 had by the end of 1945 
MP>  trained 72835 RCAF airmen,42110 RAF ( Including French, 
MP>  Dutch, Norwegians Poles, Belgians) 5296 Royal Navy Flett 
MP>  Air Arm,9606 RAAF, 7002 RNZAF and some 45000 ground crew.  
MP>  The total was close to 200000 trained by the RCAF.

     What you have just said is what I thought it was.  I was 
responding to someone saying there was no such thing.  There was 
the James Cagney movie about Alaskan bush pilots joining up and 
becoming instructors.  Captains of the Clouds, if I remember 
correctly.  Probably 1940 as they were heavy on biplanes.

MP>      So Matt you have again shown a sad lack of knowledge 
MP>  about anything outside Florida  .

     I have met more Canadians in Florida than any place else in 
the country.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (929)
To:      Michael Pilon                          18 Sep 94 10:30:10
Subject: BYE                                    

MP>  LG> Your absence will hardly be noticed.

MP>  MG> I miss him already.

MP>  MG> BTW:  What was the brand name on his mask?

MP>  Therein lies the problem.  He was a goalie in hockey and 
MP>  never wore a mask.  

     I was thinking of Canadian remake of the Friday 13th movies.

A few dozen pucks to the face can jar a 
MP>  lot of nerve and synapse ends.  

     Or you start singing like Mick Jagger.

Kind of like Forest Gump 
MP>  Worsely, 

     Last time he was in Canada no one noticed anything different 
about him.

he played a lot of unmasked goal for the Rangers, 
MP>  Montreal etc..  sad but true, every time he sees a red light 
MP>  he looks behind him for the puck.

     And when he sees a green light he comes to a complete stop 
in the Canadian tradition.     


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (930)
To:      Michael Pilon                          18 Sep 94 10:34:10
Subject: CANADIAN GUNNERS                       

MP>  MP>       Several thousand turned up at the various rallies, by 
MP>  MP>   way of comparison a rally for Topless rights drew 5000 in 
MP>  MP>   Ottawa some 3 years ago.

MP>  MG>  You are stealing my parody style on the priorities of 
MP>  MG>  Canadians.  Do not do it again.

MP>      Actually these numbers are factual ;-).  FARNK Magazine 
MP>  is an Ottawa based satire/gossip/political shootdown 
MP>  magazine that runs just at the edge of good taste and 
MP>  propriety.  A year ago they made up fake stamps using Corel 
MP>  draw and a colour laser printer.  They sent them out on 
MP>  letters and 28 of some 33 got through the mail.  One was a 
MP>  shot of two topless gals ( That is 2 a breast as it were ;0 
MP>  ) and the commemorative 'Stamp' was labeled..Topless 
MP>  Rights.  They also had four in a Canadian Winter series..The 
MP>  Touque, the SNowbank the Seal Hunt and the fourth I 
MP>  forget....  

     We need some of that down here.  There is this campaign 
against T-back bathing suits at the beach and on hot dog vendors.  
If it weren't for the Canadian men wearing them...

One had a picture of the US marine in
MP>  Atlanta holding the Canadian flag upsidedown during the 
MP>  World Serie ( What dat?)

     I remember that.  We are so familiar with the flag of Canada 
that ...     


---
  RM 1.3 01261  BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (931)
To:      Michael Pilon                          18 Sep 94 10:41:10
Subject: LONG WINTER                            

MP>  DL>  In southern Arizona such a sighting would be labled a
MP>  DL>  "snowbird" spotting.

MP>  MG> What is the license fee and bag limit there?

MP>  Do you want to vomit on them shoot them or both, you'll 
MP>  have to ask the Francophobe Jack Butler where ever he is !

     There is apparently a market for Lark's vomit, at least 
there was some millenia ago.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (940)
To:      Andy Manninger                         18 Sep 94 13:56:10
Subject: 2 Fishermen Killed                     

AM>  I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with this 
AM>  "newscast." As you state, the Kuril Islands were seized by 
AM>  the Soviets during WWII.  They legally belong to Japan.  Thus 
AM>  the concept of poaching by the Japanese doesn't apply.  As 
AM>  far as I know, the Russians are occupying those islands in 
AM>  defiance of international law.  They don't have a legal leg 
AM>  to stand on.

     Which reality are you coming from?  The islands were 
conquered following a declaration of war.  Since when has that 
not been a recognized means of acquiring territory?  (Hint:  It 
was not prior to 1946.)  

     I would suggest you learn something about international law 
one of these days.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (941)
To:      Michael Pilon                          18 Sep 94 14:03:10
Subject: AGE AND RELATIONSHIPS                  

MP>  al women.  That is Europeans and SOuth Americans.  Being 
MP>  bilingual I dated a lot of French Canadians as well.

     Pilon is a British name?



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (942)
To:      Travis Beard                           18 Sep 94 14:05:10
Subject: Astronomers Anti-christ?               

TB>  We first started studying the various ways Philosopher 
TB>  wanted to prove god exists and the Cosmology or 
TB>  Cosmological argument was the second one.
TB> 
TB>  But it seems in Physics there is also cosmology.  Or the 
TB>  study of the cosmos, missing matter and related items.

     Consider physics want to learn as much as possible about 
what they are talking about while philosophers want to see how 
elegant an argument they can construct by knowing as little about 
the subject as possible.  They never got passed alchemy where the 
words are more important than the substance.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (943)
To:      Carl Thompson                          18 Sep 94 14:13:10
Subject: California Proposition 1               

CT>  Uh, now your speak for the TI's too.  Paul you seem to over 
CT>  look the fact that it's the citizens' of California that 
CT>  have brought Prop.  188 to the vote, not the Tobacco 
CT>  companies.  And how many dollars has the Godber movement 
CT>  spent on trying to flame 188?

     Rather what right does the government, any government, have 
to intrude on a referendum issue?  

CT>  Again paul Prop.  188 was placed on the ballet by the 
CT>  people, not the Tobacco companies.  There is no dought that 
CT>  TIs support it, just like the Godber's oppose it.  Right 
CT>  paul?  It is my understanding the Tobacco companies main 
CT>  thrust is going to be in a court of law.  Maybe even as 
CT>  soon as next year.

     Trust me.  He will find secret tobacco industry funding as 
sure as our painless Canadian's name is Michael Conspiracy.

CT>  Vote the way you must.  I will vote the way i must.  But, a 
CT>  reminder; the State of California is currently losing 20-50 
CT>  million per year because tobacco products are being 
CT>  smuggled into California, and this figure is a very 
CT>  conservitive.  California is already working with ATF 
CT>  attemping to stem the flow.  The cost to California 
CT>  citizens' will continue to grow.  It's appears to be the 
CT>  start of yet another drug war...

     It isn't the money, it is the Christian stand against 
atheist smokers.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (944)
To:      Pete Bucy                              18 Sep 94 14:25:10
Subject: Clinton Death-pool                     

PB>      Now Bill "I hate the military" Clinton 

     I do have to correct this.  Hatred implies some sort of 
reason.  What he actually said was "loathe" which implies 
contempt.  Again you have understated the man's convictions.


is about to send 
PB>      more young Americans to their deaths.  In a situation 
PB>      like this it is inevitable that some Americans will be 
PB>      killed and maimed and I don't know for what!

     To detract from his incredibility.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (945)
To:      Jolene Post                            18 Sep 94 14:44:10
Subject: Clinton's Remarks on Hati              

JP>      A snap poll conducted by CNN after Clinton's speech 
JP>  showed evidence of the time-honored U.S.  tradition of 
JP>  rallying around the commander-in-chief in times of crisis.  
JP>  But a majority of those polled said Clinton should get 
JP>  congressional approval before taking military action.

     But a poll run after people had had a chance to think about 
it found 56% still against this training exercise.     


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1002)
To:      Pete Bucy                              19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Canadian Piracy                        

 MG> I do not recall William the Conqueror slaughtering the 
 MG> Saxons and make a mound of their heads.  

 MG> Slaughtering or selling the survivors into slavery went out 
 MG> of style at least a 1000 years ago.

PB>     I guess that you missed WWII.

     I do not recall any slavery.  There were a few charges of 
slaughter after surrender but they were generally dismissed at 
the war crimes trials or trivial punishments vice executions.  

     The real few real atrocities were Japanese against POWs as I 
remember and it was not out of line with their standards.  Of 
course the Japanese are still not quite civilized.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: My every message, a conference unto itself.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1003)
To:      Jack Wilder                            19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Long Winter                            

 DL>  In southern Arizona such a sighting would be labled a 
 DL>  "snowbird" spotting.
 MG> 
 MG> What is the license fee and bag limit there?

JW>         On the "snowbirds", or the "spotted
JW>   canadians"???

     Spotted Canadians.  The limited is very high here and 
unlimited if you can show they will not turn left on green and 
leave a Canadian quarter as a tip.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even Eternal Truth doesn't last forever.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1004)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                         Invading Haiti
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/16>

     On September 15th, 1994 at 9pm Eastern Standard Time we
heard President William Jefferson Clinton declare the invasion of
Haiti was in the interest of the security of the United States of
America.  He then went on to define our security being
threatened by the way Haitians were treating Haitians.
     We were left with the burning question.  Is he the president
of the United States or of the Dominican Republic?  I can see the
Dominican Republic being threatened by a lawless government in
Haiti but some how I can not imagine laying in survival gear here
in Tampa.
     Given the massive assets being committed to Haiti I had the
passing idea that he would announce at 9pm that the invasion of
Cuba had begun at 8pm in a brilliant military coup of
misdirection.  I was of course not disappointed.  He repeated his
slacked jawed bluster against Haiti.
     He did not mention the invasion was part of the deal with
the Black Caucus in Congress for their support of the crime bill.
He did not mention that the other justification was an attempt to
salvage his own credibility after his irresponsible threats.
     He did repeat his naive claim that the military leaders of
Haiti had broken their promise to leave.  Anyone who has followed
Presient Clinton's track record knows he is an expert in
identifying broken promises.  It would appear he is sanctioning a
military take over against himself for breaking promises.
     He did recount horror stories while failing to demonstrate a
one of them.  Much like the horror stories of Iraquis actions in
Kuwait turning out premature babies to ship the incubators to
Iraq he recounted executions of orphans.  Of course with a
straight face he expected us to believe him or perhaps be
believes it himself.
     And then, taking a cue from dozens of 1950s SciFi flicks and
from the recent Dolph Longhren movie he gave a message to the
Haitian people, We Come In Peace.  Now perhaps those 1950s movies
are still first run in Arkansas, perhaps they are cult classics,
but that does not reduce the sheer melodramatic corn of the line.
I do have a taste for B movies but that line is straight from
Plan Nine From Outer Space.
     OK, Haitians, we are coming in peace with half the assets we
used to turn around the war at sea in the Pacific in WW II.  If
we were not coming in peace we would be bringing some serious
assets to bear, like the entire Atlantic Fleet.  But you can tell
by two carrier battle groups (26 ships and four submarines) that
we come in peace and mean you no harm.
     You will be convinced we come in peace when you see a
thousand paratroopers falling from the sky.  When your country is
under the control of armed American troops you will know we have
come in peace.
     This boy is for real?  This a kid pretending to be a comic
book superhero.
     Enough.  All the fish in the barrel are dead.  I used an
assault weapon.
     This was the most "please like me" speech I have ever heard
from any politician in my life.  If I were to regard all speech
subject matter as equal and simply judge quality it is some place
between the Martin Van Buren innaugural address and a high school
Salutorian address.
     I will note by its absense any reference to "I" have
decided, "I" have directed, "I" have done anything.  It is
obvious "I" did not do a damn thing and is therefore not
responsible for any outcome.  He could not even deliver "your
time is up" with a "make my day" or "I'll be back" conviction.
     A dull monotone lacking in even the pretense of emotion or
conviction is a "please like me" speech.  The only thing good
about the speech was its brevity.  There is only so much NBC
quality programming that is acceptable on the airwaves.
     Whatever his prompting for the tone to set it went awry
under his skillful implementation.  Somber?  Decisive?  Grave?
No matter what the prompt it came out juvenile and stupid.  Even
Fearless Leader can do better than this for Boris and Natasha.
     But in any event we have the word of the mouthy horse.  We
are invading Haiti because our national security is threatened by
the way Haitians are treating Haitian.  I do not explain 'em.  I
only report 'em.  We have the word of The Clinton as to the
gospel truth of the reason for this killing of Haitians and the
loss of American lives.  And above all remember, We Come In
Peace.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< *                Barney Must Die!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1005)
To:      Chris Baugh                            19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Canadian Gunners                       

 MG> You are stealing my parody style on the priorities of
 MG> Canadians. Do not do it again.

CB>  Has your parody style also been copyrighted?  

     Guido the Enforcer takes care of my style.  

Will you hire 
CB>  Mr.  Harris' attorney to file a lawsuit to stop DEBATE 
CB>  participants from saying things you don't like?

     What "don't like"?  I thought it was great.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am a chiropractor.  I adjust the human spine.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1006)
To:      John Steinson                          19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Role Models                            

MG>BS> Gays are more involved in violent crimes: as the victims.

MG>     That is only if you ignore gay on gay crime.  Of course
MG>thost stats can not be collected as those are love crimes.

JS>     Sort of reminds me of that great Hetrosexual past time:

JS>     Spousal abuse.

     And like NOW it is the "poor me" syndrome.  The first claim 
it is they are the victims.  Look into it and find the claims are 
ficticious.  You are very correct in putting gay on gay crime 
under spousal abuse.  

     Beyond that what I would like to see are statistics on death 
and injuries from voluntary sex practices in addition to formal 
crime.  True equality for gay would make death and injuries from 
voluntary sex practices a matter of criminal negligence.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I'm upping my standards, up yours.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1007)
To:      Kate Secrest                           19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Atheism                                

KS> Why would that "stardust" not be the "dust" of Genesis?
     
     Because ignorant, savage tribal goat herders made up the 
story that is why.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even Eternal Truth doesn't last forever.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1008)
To:      Lester Garrett                         19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Confederate Battle                     

LG> In a message to William Meriwether, dated 04 Sep 94, Martin Eble wrote:

LG>  Come on, Martin, that kind of thing is just asking for a 
LG>  response in kind and you know it.  Back it down.

     Meriwether was sent to the conference by god to test your 
ability not to post such messages to him.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: You only get six fouls per game.  Make them count.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1009)
To:      Lester Garrett                         19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Gore Waffles                           

LG> [Area: DEBATE]  [Subj: Gore Waffles 2/2]

LG> In a message to All, dated 05 Sep 94, Martin Eble wrote:

LG>  Why doesn't someone ask him about his gas hole.  You know, 
LG>  the one he warned was coming just as EPA funding was coming 
LG>  up -- and which, after the funding had been voted 
LG>  subsequently forgot to appear.

     What did I miss?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Dr. Gruber, get a life."  Dr. Herbert West

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1010)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Seattle /Vancouver Crime               

     Did anyone here save the comparison between crime in these 
two cities broken down by race?  Much appreciated if it could be 
posted again.

---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< * Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1011)
To:      Kate Secrest                           19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Limbaugh's Reign Of O                  

KS>  Yes.  It is reasonable to assume that Foster would have 
KS>  taken the time to write a note but not bother to sign it.  
KS>  It is reasonable to assume that Foster would reasonably 
KS>  assume that he would be the only suicide "victim" in the 
KS>  near vicinity of the note and reasonably assume that those 
KS>  finding his body would reasonably assume that the body and 
KS>  the note went together, so to speak, and thus the body 
KS>  would reasonably serve as signature to the note.

     But is it reasonable to assume the missing piece, being the 
bottom right that would have contained the signature to be the 
piece that is missing?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Hansen Brothers; my kind of debaters.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1012)
To:      Lester Garrett                         19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Politics                               

LG>  If I'm not mistaken I believe that changed some years back.  
LG>  I think the Congress passed legislation which now requires 
LG>  that every Administration submit a budget proposal.

     Correct.  And it must be the cost of implementing the laws 
that have been passed.  Wish lists to increase or decrease those 
expenditures are addendums to the budget.  Submitting a balanced 
budget is not an option.

     Consider what it really is, an estimate of actual costs, 
nothing more.  It is NOT what he will spend.  It is an estimate 
of what is needed to do his job, executing the laws of the land.  
Whether or not he gets it is a party politics matter.  It has 
nothing to do with doing his job.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Don't give them your guns.  Give them your bullets.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1013)
To:      Pete Bucy                              19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Wanted: Sperm Donors                   

PB>     Mike, your humor is refreshing in an echo that can sometimes
PB>     be a little too serious. Your double entendres and fanciful
PB>     surnames keep me in stitches.

     They are all real.  He is French.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Born in 1945; the replacement for WW II.

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+++ r_940922 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1126)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 07:45:10
Subject: Zealot for Liberty    2/2              

  Original       To: TANDY WAY
  SILICON       was       By: MATT GIWER
   DUPE      posted:      On: TABB
               Conf: 0000 - Main Board
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Talley and Tandy,

     I have been having trouble getting multipart messages out of 
the local area for a long time.  Note this is the second of two 
parts.  I got this from Southern Systems and it originates in 
TABB.  I also works on vice versa and I have called across the 
bay to find both parts getting on to BAYCHAT.

     However, I continue to be told that the second part of a 
message does not get through nationally.  I have tried everything 
I can think of on my side.  The only thing that works is manually 
creating multipart messages.  Changing message length from very 
small to unlimited does not work.  It is as though something 
up the line is dupe filtering and doing it completely wrong.

     Is there anyway to find out where the problem might be?

MG>    [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

MG>      I am not even remotely exaggerating.  The first time the
MG> warrantless search of a home results a few deaths of the
MG> searchers caused by the searchees the government will decide
MG> searches need be increased not decreased.  That is the way of
MG> government.

MG> ---
MG>   SPEED 1.30 >01<  "Bill and Al's Bogus Adventure."  DEMs '92
MG> --- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
MG>  * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)


cc: TALLEY RAGAN in 0003 on SOUTHSYS
    ALL in 0035 on TABB

---
  RM 1.3 01261  One Finger is all a real American needs.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1129)
To:      David Lentz                            19 Sep 94 08:39:10
Subject: 4th out the window                     

DL> MG>       And the other side of the coin, if they had done 
DL> MG>  nothing AND the murder had been of OJ rather than of his 
DL> MG>  ex.  Consider the charges of racism to come from that one.

DL>  The reverse scenario did actually happen in Milwaukee, 
DL>  Wisconsin.  A police offer knocked on Jeffery Dahlmer's door 
DL>  while Dahlmer was in the process of murdering one of  his 
DL>  victims.  After the officer left, Dahlmer went back to 
DL>  murdering his victim.

     Good point.  I remember the racism charges were made but not 
particularly loudly.  Now make the victim OJ ...


---
  RM 1.3 01261  First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages.  FBI at Waco.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1130)
To:      Jim Sterling                           19 Sep 94 08:41:10
Subject: CONFEDERATE FLAG                       

JS>   Had a friend who had inherited an estate on Longboat Key, 
JS>  but he died of a massive coronary at the age of 23.  Sad.  We 
JS>  had some great times on his sport fisherman.

     The folks whose families or even themselves who came here 
when there were still black and white water fountains have it 
made.  I friend of mine inherited a ramshackle place on the gulf 
from her parents right near St. Pete.  Not a bad place to live 
for a store clerk.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  W.A.C.O, acronym, Washington Approved Cook Out
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1131)
To:      Ron Buttenham                          19 Sep 94 08:43:10
Subject: Moral Evolution ????                   

RB> MG>     This was an attempt to make the cynicism more obvious.

RB> It would seem that I missed the irony totally.  I can see that
RB> it went zzwwwwwp right over my head.

     I was warned about that but after I had posted it.  Looks 
like I can not presume my audience is as cynical as I any longer.

RB> MG>      Can you remember a case of anyone being found on the 
RB> MG> take for drugs?

RB>  No, you are correct, the stories seem to be about police 
RB>  officers or officials that have changed sides totally and 
RB>  become dealers themselves.  There is no doubt more money in 
RB>  dealing than in getting bribed anyways.

     Of course but bribes are much safer.  There is very little 
exposure and the vertical chain of command is also on the take.  
The chain covers for itself.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  First they came for Weaver and I did not speak.  Then they
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1132)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        19 Sep 94 08:46:10
Subject: VINCE FOSTER                           

BS> MG>MG>       The signature, IF the missing piece has a signature on  
BS> MG>MG> MG> it,  is the only thing that would connect it with 
BS> MG>MG> Foster.   MG> Given that  the next problem that is not 
BS> MG>MG> clearly a suicide  MG> note.

BS> MG>BS>   You don't believe in handwriting identification? Or was it  
BS> MG>BS>   BS>  typed?

BS> MG>     The picture released to the networks was typed.

BS>  In that case I can understand some of the scepticism about 
BS>  the note.  On the other hand, I still don't that he would 
BS>  have signed it.  Had he included the obvious Yours, (bland 
BS>  space) Vince Foster, that MIGHT indicate that he intended 
BS>  to sign it.  But then there are many other things to be 
BS>  considered, such as where was the note when originally 
BS>  found?

     One more time.  The piece where the signature should have 
been is the one that could not be found.  Now IF there were a 
typed version of a handwritten note then there was no reason to 
tear it up as the released picture showed much less to duplicate 
the missing piece for the picture.

     Therefore I conclude the note was typed and again the 1/28 
chance of the one critical missing piece that could have 
connected it directly with Foster.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  We are here to help you, Jude, I mean Mr. Koresh.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1141)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 10:36:10
Subject: The Revolution Watch                   

                   Ŀ ڿ   Ŀ
                     ô   Ĵ 
                           
Ŀ Ŀ ڿ   Ŀ ڿ    ڿ   Ŀ ڿ Ŀ Ŀ 
       ô   ô    ô     ô   ô ô   ô  
                 
             ڿ   Ŀ Ŀ Ŀ ڿ  
             ô   Ĵ   ô   ô    Ĵ
                         
                              
March 1992, Ruby Creek, Idaho

                   ķ  ķ       Ŀ
                         o Ĵ   
                     o     

February 28 1993, Waco, Texas

                   ķ  ķ       
                         o Ĵ Ŀ
                     o     

February 1994, gun ban included in crime bill

                   ķ  ķ     Ŀ
                         o Ŀ   
                     o  

August 1994, gun ban setback

                   ķ  ķ       
                         o Ĵ Ŀ
                     o     

August 26, 1994, gun ban passes

                   ķ  ķ     Ŀ
                         o Ŀ   
                     o  

September 14, 1994, President signs the gun ban

                   ķ  ķ           
                         o Ŀ Ŀ      
                     o        



---
  RM 1.3 01261  The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1142)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 12:12:10
Subject: Jimmy Carter, Superstar                

                     Jimmy Carter, Superstar
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     Once again, President Carter has pulled a rabbit out of a
hat or rather a President Clinton of out the kimchee.  First he
saves President Clinton's political backside by simply going to
Korea and talking to them. Over the weekend he simply goes to
Haiti and talks to them.
     I will grant it did not hurt that towards the end of the
discussions that were having little success a member of Cedras'
staff came in shouting, "De planes, Boss, De planes!"  Of course
it does beg the question of which satellite recon system the the
Haitian were using to determine that planes had left the ground
in North Carolina.  It speaks volumes for President Clinton's
Operational Security.
     It certainly helped the President Carter ignored President
Clinton's mid afternoon requests to give up and come home.  It
appears President Carter has mastered a skill few other democrats
have mastered, doing exactly the opposite of what President
Clinton advises although most of them do appear to simply ignore
him.
     We heard that President Clinton was not very happy with
President Carter for upstaging him in Korea to the point of not
personally hearing his debriefing.  To express his displeasure
this time, President Clinton ordered the invasion into action
while President Carter was still in Haiti. Perhaps he was hoping
for a hostage crisis to apply his rhetorical skills toward.
     On the good side Limbaugh has been right one more time.  He
said there would not be an invasion and that a deal had been made
with Cedras to step down and make President Clinton look good
before the elections.  Does the current date of 15 October for
stepping down sound like before the elections to you?
     And it sounds like a good deal also.  Not only amnesty (if
the US can deliver it from the Haitian Parliament) but we, the
taxpayers, get to pick up the pensions and retraining of much of
the Haitian military.  What Cedras and the leaders got has not
been revealed but one presumes it could not be less, that is an
early retirement for all of them with the US paying their
pensions.
     If there were no cash payments there certainly are four
weeks to clearly loot the country as the US will eliminate all
sanctions and free up all bank accounts.  Perhaps we should thank
President Carter for saving us the lump sum payment by giving him
the green light to take all he can carry away with him.  Sort of
like a perverted game show.
     There will be no bloody invasion although more than a little
bloodshed is not precluded as slaughtering the losers is a long
cherished Haitian tradition.  And of course our troops will be
trying to jump into the middle of any such slaughtering.  
     And of course if Cedras does not get amnesty then he has an
excuse to back out but as the country is occupied the best he can
do is call for a guerrilla war.  That can last for decades and
cost many American lives but then the occupation force should be
able to persuade the Parliament for what that is worth against
assassination.
     The problem as President Clinton is announcing is solved.
Aristide will return and democracy will reign in Haiti for the
first time. Of course to preserve it there will need to be
schools, some means of wiping out the primitive superstitions of
the natives (a more correct term than citizens at the moment) and
of course we will need to improve the infrastructure of the
country.
     Now the real problem will be the simple fact that we have
gone through this evolution solely to install a Marxist,
defrocked priest who has not grasp upon either economic or
physical reality.  That perhaps explains both Aristide's penchant
for inciting his followers to necklace his enemies and his
psychotic behavior.
     But this man is now the choice of the United States to lead
Haiti to its democratic future along with economic progress
bought and paid for by the US taxpayers.  And rest assured
President Clinton has a plan for leaving some time real soon
although he is not willing to share it with us.
     To get ahead of the game here remember President Clinton has
stated his reasons for all of this, human rights violations and
the restoration of Democracy.  Above I said infrastructure
improvements but he did not.  Yet it does seem natural does it
not?  But he did not give infrastructure improvements as one of
his reasons.
     As we know President Clinton is not known for keeping his
word or for sticking to the issue as he failed to do in Somalia
which cost 42 American lives.  President Clinton has already
backed down on his demand that Cedras leave the country.  Perhaps
that was a minor point to avoid the invasion but it certainly was
a negotiable point.
     And finally it ends with a press conference by President
Clinton and the President Carter Team where they pat each other
on the back on what a great job everyone did.  The important
point they all make is that the UN mandates will be executed.  Ah
well, maybe it was not the Black Caucus that motivated President
Clinton.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1143)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 16:26:10
Subject: Army Sits It Out                       

                        Army Sits It Out
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     The question has arisen as to the role of the US Military in
any possible revolution in this country.  The type of
insurrection I refer to is a general uprising in all states
starting in the form of a guerrilla war.  This clearly means
there would be no face to face confrontation with the regular
army.  Further that they would live no different from anyone else
while conducting the revolution.  This will initially involve
only a small fraction of the population, perhaps 1%.
     Consider that we have three branches Army, Navy (Marines)
and Air Force. Clearly the Navy and Marines are of no value in
suppressing a general insurrection.  Unless an entire coastal
state goes over to the insurrection the Navy and Marines are
clearly useless save for air strikes.
     Air strikes lack feasability for both the Navy and the Air
Force save when the insurrectionists have known and fixed
positions or supply routes.  As they would have only their own
homes or certain meeting places, perhaps loud bars, and their
food and materiel is bought in grocery and hardware stores just
like everyone else there are not targets to strike.
     Further air strikes have a serious problem with collateral
damage.  It may impress Dan Rather to show a successful strike
upon a suburban home but high explosives do not spare neighboring
homes. And the relatives of the neighbors who die will most
likely join the revolution rather than thank the government.
That increases the forces of the revolution.
     That leaves the Army as the only potentially useful force in
suppressing an insurrection.  The last three words are critical.
Although Congress was delegated the power to raise armies (for
two year intervals) and to create a standing Navy, it was clearly
delegated only the power to use the militia to suppress
insurrections.  Given the mood of all Englishmen and certainly of
the ex-colonists the use of the Army to suppress insurrection
could not possibly be construed as their intention.
     And as everyone in the Army takes an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution there is no room for complying with an
order to suppress an insurrection.  Thus it would appear by their
oaths of office, not to mention the general revulsion of our
military people to shooting at friends and relatives.  Perhaps
that is a bit of an understatement.
     There is a point of law and case law that has to be
addressed.  The US Code improperly identifies the National Guard
as the organized militia and non-members of the Guard as the
unorganized militia.  Thus it could be held that the National
Guard could be used against the rebels.
     But we have had a Supreme Court decision that clarifies the
matter.  Some years ago Reagan called up the Guard for exercises
in Central America to intimidate Ortega.  The objection to that
was taken to the Supreme Court on the grounds the Guard was a
state function.  And in this case the Supreme Court, certainly
forgetting unforeseen consequences, held the Guard was part of
the US Army.
     End discussion.  The National Guard can not be used against
an insurrection and of course they have the same oath of office.
     That leaves the only authority Congress has, to call forth
the militia to suppress other members of the militia.  Most
interesting is those aware of their militia status are those most
likely to have joined the revolution.  It presents an interesting
problem for the Federal Government.
     It requires the Federal Government to use its existing
police powers to enforce whatever laws are delegated to the
agencies with those powers.  There are relatively few such people
much less laws.  Certainly if someone were to destroy a federal
building then the FBI could investigate as it could any terrorist
activity.  However there are precious few other laws it can
enforce in any manner different than can be done now.
     In most cases they are support for the local police not
having the manpower of the local police.  In that regard the
local police are equally as abhorant as the military in attacking
friends and relatives.  In other words, the local police are not
likely to be aggressive in the matter and, in reading the
character and interests of the police, are more likely to be part
of the revolution than against it.
     The worst case is that some fraction of the Army can be
subborned to the cause of suppressing the rebellion.  In the
worst case all of it.  Consider the grounds rebellion as I have
described it without strongholds, only homes and meeting places
which have to be discovered the hard way.  These will be all
through the cities but clustered in no one place.
     That means all heavy weapons are useless because of the risk
of collateral damage and converting loyalists into rebels.  The
Army is then down to armored personnel carriers, HMMVs and foot
soldiers.  The main weapon of tanks is high on the collateral
damage scale as well as being very risky for their crews to take
into cities -- ask any tank driver.
     The armored vehicles are all well and good but for any
serious shooting the troops have to get out.  At that point,
other than training, the playing field has been leveled.  As for
training, another large group to draw on for the rebellion will
be ex-military and they will be the source of training and
expertise for the rebels.  The Regular Army will still have the
edge but not by much.
     Add to that, not only do tank drivers not like entering
cities, neither do foot soldiers.  There are too many places for
people to hide.  The only way to pacify as house is to enter it
and every part of a home is a potential ambush.  And there is no
way of knowing the shooter in the window has been neutralized
without checking and when someone enters the building to check
there is no way to be covered by others in the group.
     Worse yet rifles are clumsy things to use in houses.
Handguns are much better but at in home distances and places the
owner knows, the army folks are at a distinct disadvantage.
     Summing it all up, even with the Army being subborned into
suppression of a revolution it is hardly the most effective means
of doing so, perhaps to the point of ineffective.  Consider the
local police often choose the wrong house, address or whatever.
It is one thing to excuse the local police who may have helped
you in the past.  It is another to excuse the Army for killing
the wrong people.  Further to actually suppress a rebellion they
will have to rack up so many accidents per week that the excuses
that work for the police once a year will cease working in one
week.
     A general insurrection can not be suppressed by the Federal
government, only by the militia which is the body of the people.
When the body of the people become the insurrectionists the
government will fall.  There is no other possible outcome.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1151)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 20:59:10
Subject: Criminalize the Consequen              

                 Criminalizing the Consequences
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     When all else fails in condemning victimless crimes, condemn
them because of the consequences.  This is common in the three
most famous victimless crimes; prostitution, drugs and gambling.
It is becoming more common and with the same puritanical
justifications.
     Why should not honest citizens own guns?  Because they might
be stolen and misused.  Will they be stolen and misused?  That is
quite unpredictable.  Can it be foreseen? Of course not.  But it
might happen therefore, no guns for the potential victims.
     It is not much different with drugs.  They are 90% weekend
recreation and there is not the slightest indication that all
users are on a never ending downward spiral.  Marion Barry, the
once and future Mayor of Washington DC was a nearly life long
user until he was entrapped by the Federal Government and there
was no sign of any diminished capacity.  He would make a very
antithetical poster child any anti-drug campaign.  "Use drugs and
this may happen to you."
     Locally we have a classic criminal.  He bet money on a poker
game at the Elks Lodge.  He may be 72 but it is never too late to
do the time for doing the crime.  But he is now an official
criminal.  With any luck he may be given probation meaning if he
gets caught gambling there again he gets the maximum for both
offenses.
     It is good to see we are keeping organized crime out of area
by punishing him.  Why if he had continued to gamble who knows
what kind of sin would have come next.  Why he might even have
visited a prostitute, smoked a joint even.
     These are old jokes derided by everyone but then are the
anti-gun and anti-smoking laws any different?  The risk of
consequential harm from either of those is on the same order as
the risk of harm from second hand smoke but the cries of moral
indignation are as fierce as those of the Women's Christian
Temperance Union in its heyday.
     This entire attitude flows from the human trait to be
superstitious and to follow authority.  When we are told
something is wrong or evil or undesirable with great authority we
tend to accept it.  And once accepted any remotely related
example will encourage even greater belief.
     Consider, depending upon which variant of your religion you
follow either great material wealth is a sign of a blessing from
god or a sign of sinfulness and ill-gotten wealth or exactly the
reverse.  Rich or poor it can be a sign of being good or evil.
But whichever your belief it takes only searching out a few
horrible examples and ignoring the rest to prove the case.
     Excuse you, you are not religious.  Do you believe drugs
cause great harm to a person?  Then you find excuses to explain
Marion Barry while you trot out a bum on the street begging for
change so he can shoot up some drug.  Voile!  You have proven
your case.
     Do you believe gun ownership is harmful?  Then you take
every example of drug dealers killing each other as proof.  But
if you hold guns ownership is good then you point to successful
self defense with guns and ignore the rest.
     This is a human characteristics and it is precisely the
reason why we have applied statistics and surveys to social
issues.  We use them to provide a complete picture and to get
away from personal inclinations to see what justifies our
beliefs.
     Now certainly statistics can lie with the best of them but
they are a cut above searching out horrible examples to prove a
position that is nothing more than a belief passed along with
authority.  And lying with statistics requires serious effort at
self deception or at deceiving others while knowing better.  And
that is where the peer review and publication of science comes
into play.
     To be accepted as a true finding it is subject first to peer
review for the method prior to publication and then to critical
review by people in the same field.  Only after it becomes
accepted by others in the field can it be considered a valid
finding.  This is the only route to determine a valid finding and
it can not be hurried and may take years.
     That does not suit the human trait of finding a horrible
consequence for everything disliked and a good consequence for
everything liked.
     Consider the idea that wealth is a sign of having come by it
through immoral means.  That may be possible but clearly the
majority of such people are in prison or in a position in life
they can never escape because of their criminal record.  If that
statistic fails then there is reference to white collar crime and
the very few serious cases of it are brought out as horrible
examples while ignoring the vast majority of white collar workers
who are honest wage slaves like most everyone else.
     The carefully selected consequences resulting from some
people performing some action do not justify making anything a
crime.  For example when the drug decriminalization people state
quite clearly the crime has no victim the drug haters trot out a
few horrible examples of what can happen to people around them
because of the drug usage and call them victims.  In the good old
days of a suffering wife and children this might have had some
meaning however remote but today if the mother stays around we
have to ask if she likes being a victim.
     There is no justification for making criminals of a large
number of people simply because it is possible to find a small
number of examples of consequences that are undesirable.  We are
no longer uncivilized, superstitious tribesmen and it is time we
started acting in accordance with our pretensions of justice.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1155)
To:      Jack Wilder                            20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: CRIME BILL WON'T 2/2                   

JW>  JW>          Whether or not you are innocent is immaterial to
JW>  JW>    the child welfare dept., and you DO NOT get to face your
JW>  JW>    accuser.  Unless charges are filed in court you cannot
JW>  JW>    even get the NAME of the accuser.

JW>  MG>  I am not certain what you are getting at here.  ALL states, 
JW>  MG>  part of some crime bill or other, had to set up anonymous

JW>         You don't understand that the american system
JW>   of justice is predicated on the right to face ones'
JW>   accuser???

     Catch 23.  That only applies in court.  

     Circumventing protections of law has been a pastime in this 
country for decades now.  It is simply getting more blatant and 
less justifiable.  The "for the children" excuse is getting a bit 
threadbare.

JW>  MG>  hotlines for child abuse and all calls must be investigated 
JW>  MG>  and the caller is FOREVER anonymous unless called to 
JW>  MG>  testify at the trial.

JW>          The moral of this story is, if you have children 
JW>    you give up the right to stand up for yourself lest you 
JW>    piss someone off!

     The moral is, shoot first.  There is little left and what 
there is is going faster than before.  The basic protections of 
our rights have been largely replaced by two centuries of case 
law to the point that even a lawyer can not invoke those 
protections in most cases.  

     That is a lot of what the FIJA is all about.  To hell with 
the government being within its legal rights.  If it is wrong, 
then it is wrong.

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1156)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: Army Sits It Out                       

                        Army Sits It Out
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     The question has arisen as to the role of the US Military in
any possible revolution in this country.  The type of
insurrection I refer to is a general uprising in all states
starting in the form of a guerrilla war.  This clearly means
there would be no face to face confrontation with the regular
army.  Further that they would live no different from anyone else
while conducting the revolution.  This will initially involve
only a small fraction of the population, perhaps 1%.
     Consider that we have three branches Army, Navy (Marines)
and Air Force. Clearly the Navy and Marines are of no value in
suppressing a general insurrection.  Unless an entire coastal
state goes over to the insurrection the Navy and Marines are
clearly useless save for air strikes.
     Air strikes lack feasability for both the Navy and the Air
Force save when the insurrectionists have known and fixed
positions or supply routes.  As they would have only their own
homes or certain meeting places, perhaps loud bars, and their
food and materiel is bought in grocery and hardware stores just
like everyone else there are not targets to strike.
     Further air strikes have a serious problem with collateral
damage.  It may impress Dan Rather to show a successful strike
upon a suburban home but high explosives do not spare neighboring
homes. And the relatives of the neighbors who die will most
likely join the revolution rather than thank the government.
That increases the forces of the revolution.
     That leaves the Army as the only potentially useful force in
suppressing an insurrection.  The last three words are critical.
Although Congress was delegated the power to raise armies (for
two year intervals) and to create a standing Navy, it was clearly
delegated only the power to use the militia to suppress
insurrections.  Given the mood of all Englishmen and certainly of
the ex-colonists the use of the Army to suppress insurrection
could not possibly be construed as their intention.
     And as everyone in the Army takes an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution there is no room for complying with an
order to suppress an insurrection.  Thus it would appear by their
oaths of office, not to mention the general revulsion of our
military people to shooting at friends and relatives.  Perhaps
that is a bit of an understatement.
     There is a point of law and case law that has to be
addressed.  The US Code improperly identifies the National Guard
as the organized militia and non-members of the Guard as the
unorganized militia.  Thus it could be held that the National
Guard could be used against the rebels.
     But we have had a Supreme Court decision that clarifies the
matter.  Some years ago Reagan called up the Guard for exercises
in Central America to intimidate Ortega.  The objection to that
was taken to the Supreme Court on the grounds the Guard was a
state function.  And in this case the Supreme Court, certainly
forgetting unforeseen consequences, held the Guard was part of
the US Army.
     End discussion.  The National Guard can not be used against
an insurrection and of course they have the same oath of office.
     That leaves the only authority Congress has, to call forth
the militia to suppress other members of the militia.  Most
interesting is those aware of their militia status are those most
likely to have joined the revolution.  It presents an interesting
problem for the Federal Government.
     It requires the Federal Government to use its existing
police powers to enforce whatever laws are delegated to the
agencies with those powers.  There are relatively few such people
much less laws.  Certainly if someone were to destroy a federal
building then the FBI could investigate as it could any terrorist
activity.  However there are precious few other laws it can
enforce in any manner different than can be done now.
     In most cases they are support for the local police not
having the manpower of the local police.  In that regard the
local police are equally as abhorant as the military in attacking
friends and relatives.  In other words, the local police are not
likely to be aggressive in the matter and, in reading the
character and interests of the police, are more likely to be part
of the revolution than against it.
     The worst case is that some fraction of the Army can be
subborned to the cause of suppressing the rebellion.  In the
worst case all of it.  Consider the grounds rebellion as I have
described it without strongholds, only homes and meeting places
which have to be discovered the hard way.  These will be all
through the cities but clustered in no one place.
     That means all heavy weapons are useless because of the risk
of collateral damage and converting loyalists into rebels.  The
Army is then down to armored personnel carriers, HMMVs and foot
soldiers.  The main weapon of tanks is high on the collateral
damage scale as well as being very risky for their crews to take
into cities -- ask any tank driver.
     The armored vehicles are all well and good but for any
serious shooting the troops have to get out.  At that point,
other than training, the playing field has been leveled.  As for
training, another large group to draw on for the rebellion will
be ex-military and they will be the source of training and
expertise for the rebels.  The Regular Army will still have the
edge but not by much.
     Add to that, not only do tank drivers not like entering
cities, neither do foot soldiers.  There are too many places for
people to hide.  The only way to pacify as house is to enter it
and every part of a home is a potential ambush.  And there is no
way of knowing the shooter in the window has been neutralized
without checking and when someone enters the building to check
there is no way to be covered by others in the group.
     Worse yet rifles are clumsy things to use in houses.
Handguns are much better but at in home distances and places the
owner knows, the army folks are at a distinct disadvantage.
     Summing it all up, even with the Army being subborned into
suppression of a revolution it is hardly the most effective means
of doing so, perhaps to the point of ineffective.  Consider the
local police often choose the wrong house, address or whatever.
It is one thing to excuse the local police who may have helped
you in the past.  It is another to excuse the Army for killing
the wrong people.  Further to actually suppress a rebellion they
will have to rack up so many accidents per week that the excuses
that work for the police once a year will cease working in one
week.
     A general insurrection can not be suppressed by the Federal
government, only by the militia which is the body of the people.
When the body of the people become the insurrectionists the
government will fall.  There is no other possible outcome.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1157)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: Criminalize the Consequen              

                 Criminalizing the Consequences
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     When all else fails in condemning victimless crimes, condemn
them because of the consequences.  This is common in the three
most famous victimless crimes; prostitution, drugs and gambling.
It is becoming more common and with the same puritanical
justifications.
     Why should not honest citizens own guns?  Because they might
be stolen and misused.  Will they be stolen and misused?  That is
quite unpredictable.  Can it be foreseen? Of course not.  But it
might happen therefore, no guns for the potential victims.
     It is not much different with drugs.  They are 90% weekend
recreation and there is not the slightest indication that all
users are on a never ending downward spiral.  Marion Barry, the
once and future Mayor of Washington DC was a nearly life long
user until he was entrapped by the Federal Government and there
was no sign of any diminished capacity.  He would make a very
antithetical poster child any anti-drug campaign.  "Use drugs and
this may happen to you."
     Locally we have a classic criminal.  He bet money on a poker
game at the Elks Lodge.  He may be 72 but it is never too late to
do the time for doing the crime.  But he is now an official
criminal.  With any luck he may be given probation meaning if he
gets caught gambling there again he gets the maximum for both
offenses.
     It is good to see we are keeping organized crime out of area
by punishing him.  Why if he had continued to gamble who knows
what kind of sin would have come next.  Why he might even have
visited a prostitute, smoked a joint even.
     These are old jokes derided by everyone but then are the
anti-gun and anti-smoking laws any different?  The risk of
consequential harm from either of those is on the same order as
the risk of harm from second hand smoke but the cries of moral
indignation are as fierce as those of the Women's Christian
Temperance Union in its heyday.
     This entire attitude flows from the human trait to be
superstitious and to follow authority.  When we are told
something is wrong or evil or undesirable with great authority we
tend to accept it.  And once accepted any remotely related
example will encourage even greater belief.
     Consider, depending upon which variant of your religion you
follow either great material wealth is a sign of a blessing from
god or a sign of sinfulness and ill-gotten wealth or exactly the
reverse.  Rich or poor it can be a sign of being good or evil.
But whichever your belief it takes only searching out a few
horrible examples and ignoring the rest to prove the case.
     Excuse you, you are not religious.  Do you believe drugs
cause great harm to a person?  Then you find excuses to explain
Marion Barry while you trot out a bum on the street begging for
change so he can shoot up some drug.  Voile!  You have proven
your case.
     Do you believe gun ownership is harmful?  Then you take
every example of drug dealers killing each other as proof.  But
if you hold guns ownership is good then you point to successful
self defense with guns and ignore the rest.
     This is a human characteristics and it is precisely the
reason why we have applied statistics and surveys to social
issues.  We use them to provide a complete picture and to get
away from personal inclinations to see what justifies our
beliefs.
     Now certainly statistics can lie with the best of them but
they are a cut above searching out horrible examples to prove a
position that is nothing more than a belief passed along with
authority.  And lying with statistics requires serious effort at
self deception or at deceiving others while knowing better.  And
that is where the peer review and publication of science comes
into play.
     To be accepted as a true finding it is subject first to peer
review for the method prior to publication and then to critical
review by people in the same field.  Only after it becomes
accepted by others in the field can it be considered a valid
finding.  This is the only route to determine a valid finding and
it can not be hurried and may take years.
     That does not suit the human trait of finding a horrible
consequence for everything disliked and a good consequence for
everything liked.
     Consider the idea that wealth is a sign of having come by it
through immoral means.  That may be possible but clearly the
majority of such people are in prison or in a position in life
they can never escape because of their criminal record.  If that
statistic fails then there is reference to white collar crime and
the very few serious cases of it are brought out as horrible
examples while ignoring the vast majority of white collar workers
who are honest wage slaves like most everyone else.
     The carefully selected consequences resulting from some
people performing some action do not justify making anything a
crime.  For example when the drug decriminalization people state
quite clearly the crime has no victim the drug haters trot out a
few horrible examples of what can happen to people around them
because of the drug usage and call them victims.  In the good old
days of a suffering wife and children this might have had some
meaning however remote but today if the mother stays around we
have to ask if she likes being a victim.
     There is no justification for making criminals of a large
number of people simply because it is possible to find a small
number of examples of consequences that are undesirable.  We are
no longer uncivilized, superstitious tribesmen and it is time we
started acting in accordance with our pretensions of justice.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1158)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: Jimmy Carter, Superstar                

                     Jimmy Carter, Superstar
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     Once again, President Carter has pulled a rabbit out of a
hat or rather a President Clinton of out the kimchee.  First he
saves President Clinton's political backside by simply going to
Korea and talking to them. Over the weekend he simply goes to
Haiti and talks to them.
     I will grant it did not hurt that towards the end of the
discussions that were having little success a member of Cedras'
staff came in shouting, "De planes, Boss, De planes!"  Of course
it does beg the question of which satellite recon system the the
Haitian were using to determine that planes had left the ground
in North Carolina.  It speaks volumes for President Clinton's
Operational Security.
     It certainly helped the President Carter ignored President
Clinton's mid afternoon requests to give up and come home.  It
appears President Carter has mastered a skill few other democrats
have mastered, doing exactly the opposite of what President
Clinton advises although most of them do appear to simply ignore
him.
     We heard that President Clinton was not very happy with
President Carter for upstaging him in Korea to the point of not
personally hearing his debriefing.  To express his displeasure
this time, President Clinton ordered the invasion into action
while President Carter was still in Haiti. Perhaps he was hoping
for a hostage crisis to apply his rhetorical skills toward.
     On the good side Limbaugh has been right one more time.  He
said there would not be an invasion and that a deal had been made
with Cedras to step down and make President Clinton look good
before the elections.  Does the current date of 15 October for
stepping down sound like before the elections to you?
     And it sounds like a good deal also.  Not only amnesty (if
the US can deliver it from the Haitian Parliament) but we, the
taxpayers, get to pick up the pensions and retraining of much of
the Haitian military.  What Cedras and the leaders got has not
been revealed but one presumes it could not be less, that is an
early retirement for all of them with the US paying their
pensions.
     If there were no cash payments there certainly are four
weeks to clearly loot the country as the US will eliminate all
sanctions and free up all bank accounts.  Perhaps we should thank
President Carter for saving us the lump sum payment by giving him
the green light to take all he can carry away with him.  Sort of
like a perverted game show.
     There will be no bloody invasion although more than a little
bloodshed is not precluded as slaughtering the losers is a long
cherished Haitian tradition.  And of course our troops will be
trying to jump into the middle of any such slaughtering.  
     And of course if Cedras does not get amnesty then he has an
excuse to back out but as the country is occupied the best he can
do is call for a guerrilla war.  That can last for decades and
cost many American lives but then the occupation force should be
able to persuade the Parliament for what that is worth against
assassination.
     The problem as President Clinton is announcing is solved.
Aristide will return and democracy will reign in Haiti for the
first time. Of course to preserve it there will need to be
schools, some means of wiping out the primitive superstitions of
the natives (a more correct term than citizens at the moment) and
of course we will need to improve the infrastructure of the
country.
     Now the real problem will be the simple fact that we have
gone through this evolution solely to install a Marxist,
defrocked priest who has not grasp upon either economic or
physical reality.  That perhaps explains both Aristide's penchant
for inciting his followers to necklace his enemies and his
psychotic behavior.
     But this man is now the choice of the United States to lead
Haiti to its democratic future along with economic progress
bought and paid for by the US taxpayers.  And rest assured
President Clinton has a plan for leaving some time real soon
although he is not willing to share it with us.
     To get ahead of the game here remember President Clinton has
stated his reasons for all of this, human rights violations and
the restoration of Democracy.  Above I said infrastructure
improvements but he did not.  Yet it does seem natural does it
not?  But he did not give infrastructure improvements as one of
his reasons.
     As we know President Clinton is not known for keeping his
word or for sticking to the issue as he failed to do in Somalia
which cost 42 American lives.  President Clinton has already
backed down on his demand that Cedras leave the country.  Perhaps
that was a minor point to avoid the invasion but it certainly was
a negotiable point.
     And finally it ends with a press conference by President
Clinton and the President Carter Team where they pat each other
on the back on what a great job everyone did.  The important
point they all make is that the UN mandates will be executed.  Ah
well, maybe it was not the Black Caucus that motivated President
Clinton.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1159)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: The Revolution Watch                   

                   ****** **  * *****
                     **   ***** ***
                     **   **  * *****
***** ***** **  * ***** **    **  * ****** ** ***** **** *
***** ***   **  * **  * **    **  *   **   ** **  * ** * *
** *  *****  **** ***** ***** *****   **   ** ***** ** ***
             ** * * ***** ****** ***** **  *
             ** * * *****   **   **    *****
             ****** **  *   **   ***** **  *
                              
March 1992, Ruby Creek, Idaho

                   **  **    *  * ****
                    *   *  o **** *  *
                   *** *** o    * ****

February 28 1993, Waco, Texas

                   **  **    *  * ****
                    *   *  o **** ****
                   *** *** o    * ****

February 1994, gun ban included in crime bill

                   **  **    **** ****
                    *   *  o **** *  *
                   *** *** o **** ****

August 1994, gun ban setback

                   **  **    *  * ****
                    *   *  o **** ****
                   *** *** o    * ****

August 26, 1994, gun ban passes

                   **  **    **** ****
                    *   *  o **** *  *
                   *** *** o **** ****

September 14, 1994, President signs the gun ban

                   **  **    **** ****      
                    *   *  o **** ****      
                   *** *** o **** ****      



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1224)
To:      David Lentz                            21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: 4TH OUT THE WINDOW  W                  

DL>  The question was did O.J.  Simpson have a reasonable 
DL>  expectation of privacy on his grounds aside his residence?  
DL>  Given the number of non-family members and non-employees 
DL>  that had apparent free access to the ground around 
DL>  Simpson's residence, it appeared that Simpson did not 
DL>  maintain the area as private.

     Of course he did.  That I have one person cleaning the pool 
and other doing the grass inside a fenced yard and that I have 
authorized them access does not in any way mean the police or 
anyone other than those people have authorized access.  Were I 
to have a rental house on the property then that person could 
also have access to the yard as could those he authorized to 
visit him.  However, he would still have an expectation of 
privacy even from me and neither could he give up my right to 
privacy.

     The ONLY place where this expectation of privacy does not 
exist is in a boarding house and then that gets a bit murky in 
case law.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1225)
To:      Jim Salter                             21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: ASTRONOMERS ANTI-CHRIST?               

JS>          Yes, well then NO, repeat NO, faithful Christian 
JS>  was an "educated man" by your definitions well into the 
JS>  15th century, then, as one of the greatest obstacles to 
JS>  Columbus' expedition was that by common belief AND Church 
JS>  doctrine, the world was flat ==> he would fall off of the 
JS>  edge.

     Another product of the public education system speaks up.

     The reason he had so much trouble getting funding was that 
Columbus was an uneducated fool and was trying to convince people 
the world was only 8000 miles around while every educated person 
knew it was on the order of 25000 miles around.  

     There is some indication Columbus based his belief on the 
Piri Reis map but that is in contention as his possession of a 
copy has no direct evidence to support it.

JS>          Since when do religous doctrine and education 
JS>  necessarily go hand-in-hand?! I still maintain that 
JS>  directly challenging the word of the bible on the shape of 
JS>  the world was far more of a challenge than simply changing 
JS>  the currently held view of the fixed earth.

     You really should demand a refund from the schools you went 
to.  


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1226)
To:      Paul Smith                             21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 1               

PS> DS > BTW, YOUR numbers are reversed...15 years ago the seating in 
PS> DS > a restrau 25% for non smoking.  The PC FASCISTS have been 
PS> DS > very busy telling a pr owner how they must use their 
PS> DS > property...

PS>  You are correct David.  Fifteen years ago, smoking was the 
PS>  accepted norm and the majority of seating was designated 
PS>  smoking.  The numbers have reversed as a result of the 
PS>  decline of smoking, the loss of smoking's prestige, and the 
PS>  realization of the health effects of ETS.  

     The numbers have NOT reversed.  The same cowardly, whining 
1/4 of you, of which you are member, is still out there whining.  
The smokers and the "don't cares" are still the majority.  But in 
this day and age minorities such as you are catered to.  It is 
the fascist thing to do.

As a business 
PS>  owner, you should be overjoyed that you will no longer have 
PS>  to put up with the cigarette smoke, the dirty walls, 
PS>  ceilings, drapes, etc., the burned holes in linoleum, 
PS>  carpets, and upholstery, the lost productivity of your 
PS>  workers due to upper respiratory infections, etc.
PS> 
PS>  What's the problem?

     It loses much more profit than the decrease in costs.  And 
just what gave you wanna-live-forever whiners the provenence to 
speak for anything other than your own fears?  Drop the crusader 
rabbit noble cause approach and admit it is solely because you 
personally do not like smoking and smokers.  

     NEVER pretend you have the authority to speak for the good 
of anyone else else you will drown in your own disgusting 
sanctimony.

PS> DS > When the public BUYS the PRIVATE property of a business then 
PS> DS > they may THEIR private property what they will.  If you do 
PS> DS > not like to smoke the work at that kind of business.

PS>  That is precisely the problem David.  A worker who objects 
PS>  to or is allergic to tobacco smoke is barred from working 
PS>  at about 95% of businesses.  Take a poll of your workers 
PS>  and see how many of them would work in non-smoking 
PS>  businesses if they could (had the option).

     Tough shit.  80% of the jobs require standing at least.  
People with bad backs are barred from such jobs.  Are you 
suggesting all job requiring standing should be declared illegal?  
If not why not?  There are at least ten times more workers with 
back problems than smoke allergies.  And PLEASE answer in terms 
of YOUR personal preferences and NOT in terms of your 
sanctimonius presumption that you can speak for the needs of 
anyone else unless you have their written permission.

PS> DS > If you REALLY mean what you say then form an advocacy group 
PS> DS > which BUYS offending businesses so as to put into play what 
PS> DS > you wish.  Untill you your group BUYS [in other words put 
PS> DS > your money along side your mouth] property of the business 
PS> DS > you want to control then either go conduct bu somewhere else 
PS> DS > or shut up.

PS>  I beg your pardon.  I do believe that my oinion is just as 
PS>  good as yours is.  If you can convince me that I'm wrong - 
PS>  well, I'm willing to listen.

     Your onion is what you imagine it to be.  You presumption 
you can speak for anyone other than yourself bespeaks such an ego 
that the word pompous comes to mind.

PS>  Prove to me that what we're proposing is going to cost you 
PS>  business (money) David.

     That is why it was repealed in some place near LA.  It was 
costing business.  But you know that happened.  You know the loss 
of business has been proven.  Yet you continue to pretend it is 
an unproven case.  Why would you lie by implication?

PS> DS > I do NOT smoke but I will vote YES on this simpley because 
PS> DS > there are t people like YOU who wish to tell private 
PS> DS > property owners how to use th property.

PS>  There are many non-smokers who will vote yes on this 
PS>  proposition David for a variety of reasons - some better 
PS>  than others.  Some will be concerned about "smoker's 
PS>  rights", some will be concerned about how our "rights" are 
PS>  being eroded (even though Proposition 188 is a MAJOR eroder 
PS>  of our rights to govern ourselves), and some will buy into 
PS>  the lie about the need for a uniform, state-wide tobacco 
PS>  control policy (that has already been accomplished by the 
PS>  law that Governor Wilson just signed.)

     If you are suggesting the referendum provision be removed 
from the California Constitution that is one thing.  If you are 
not then you will have to deal with what is done with its 
existence.

PS>  You are concerned about "people like me".  Please tell me 
PS>  what you percieve "me" to be.  

     A Miss Grundy.

If my arguments don't 
PS>  convince you to change your vote then please vote as you 
PS>  deem best.  ITMT, please allow me to inform and educate the 
PS>  electorate.  If I lie, I would expect you to bring it to my 
PS>  (our) attention.  Otherwise, Peace!

     Your lies are your own.  Your pomposity is the issue as is 
your totalitarian leanings.     

PS> Californians! Vote NO on Prop 188!!

     Vote No!  Vote Fascist!


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1227)
To:      Pete Bucy                              21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: CANADIAN                               

PB>   By the way, how many folks on this echo do you think know 
PB>      what a codpiece is.

     Compared to me a cod is rather small.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1228)
To:      Wayne Jones                            21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: CANADIAN                               

WJ>  JS>  Sure.  They were under command of the Coast Guard for the 
WJ>  JS>  duration of the drug ops.  They were only used because the 
WJ>  JS>  Coast Guard doesn't have the equipment to catch a drug-boat 
WJ>  JS>  with twin 454's on the back, etc.  You gonna tell me a Coast 
WJ>  JS>  Guard cutter couldn't catch FISHERMEN with nets out?!

WJ>  This is rediculous, in the US it may be the policy to not 
WJ>  use the military as police.  In Canada it has been done on 
WJ>  numerous occations, including most recently the Occa  
WJ>  native incident.  

     If your indian lands are independent nations as in the US 
that is a legitimate use as it is war not a police function.

     Tell me, tell us all, when was the last time the Canadian 
army moved against citizens?  Please give the specifics as to the 
justification.  Did the citizens out man or out gun the local 
police?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1229)
To:      David Lentz                            21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: FORT SUMTER                            

DL> Assuming secession is legal.

     It clearly is.  The Article of Confederation used terms like 
"in perpetuity" 4 or 5 times.  There are no such words in the 
Constitution.  Nor is there any delegated power to preserve the 
union or that states can not leave.  Secession is not even a 
reserved power under the 9th and 10th amendments.  

     The deafening silence means there can be no law prohibiting 
it (there still is not) as Congress only has the power to pass 
laws that implement the delegated powers in the Constitution.  
Therefore it can not be made illegal.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1230)
To:      Sandra Peake                           21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: FRESH MEAT AVAILABLE                   

SP> AM>      Unless you are Hebrew, Adam couldn't be your Grandpa.  
SP> AM> Read your Bible a little closer.  The Adam and Eve myth is 
SP> AM> the creation myth of the Hebrew people not the creation myth 
SP> AM> of human beings.  (Who did Cain marry?)

SP>   Al, OK, I took your advice.  I read the Bible a little 
SP>   closer.  Adam had numerous children during his lifetime.  
SP>   Only 3 are identified  by name, Cain, Abel and Seth.  (Gen 
SP>   5: 3-5) So Cain married a sister.  Really quite simple, as 
SP>   there were no laws nor taboos against incest, nor were any 
SP>   such restrictions then needed.

     Seth was a man.  Cain was the second born.  He went to live 
some place else (Nod.)  How did a sister get there and how was it 
possible to avoid the species dying out for lack of a 
sufficiently large gene pool?  The gene pool in the Ozarks is 
barely large enough to continue human life.

SP>   Following Seth's line down, we go through  Enosh, Kenan, 
SP>   Mahalalel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, Lamech down to Noah.  
SP>   THese men were not Hebrews, since the designation as a 
SP>   racial or religious identification was not yet determined.  
SP>   Their descendants through Abram (Abraham) became known as 
SP>   Hebrews, and Abraham was the first to be called a 
SP>   Hebrew.(Gen 14:13)
SP> 
SP>   THEn came the Big Rain, 

     In 2250 BC by the same geneology you swear by below, that 
being the same one that puts creation in 4004 BC.  You can't have 
it both ways.  If you have his geneology you have the dates of 
these events.  Not just one or the other.

which left 8 people alive on 
SP>   earth.Afterwards, all of mankind spread abroad from just 
SP>   one man, through his 3 sons.  Every race of people, Hebrew 
SP>   included, can claim Noah as ancestor, and thus, through 
SP>   him, Adam as Great Grandpa.

     Which of course is quite impossible.

SP>   Funny thing is, I can trace the ancestry of Jesus Christ, 
SP>   a man who lived just under 2000 years ago, right back to 
SP>   Adam.  I don't have to prove the existence of Jesus.  He was 
SP>   real.  Which part of his ancestry was myth?

     Jesus was physically descended from David - Romans 1:1-3.

The genealogy in Matt 1:1-16 only relates to Joseph who had 
nothing to do with the conception.  The genealogy in Luke 3:23-38 
again only mentions Joseph and therefore physical Davidic descent 
must be shown through Mary - Jesus' only contact with humanity if 
virgin born. However, Luke 1:36 says Mary was related to 
Elizabeth who was of the Aaronic line (Luke 1:5) and therefore 
not the Davidic line, so with virgin birth, Davidic descent, a 
strict prerequisite for messiahship is prevented. In sum, Jesus 
couldn't be the Christ.

     And then of course there is the problem of there being two 
different genealogies of the Patriarchs in the OT and both differ 
from the one of Jeshua in the NT.

     You have the talent of the Red Queen.

=====

     From the top.  

     BOTH of the conflicting Adam and Eve stories are only one 
origin of the people.  The sons of god and daughters of men is 
the second origin story.  Finally there is the story of Abram 
being the third and most commonly accepted story of the origins 
of the Hebrews.

     Those are the three origin stories in the Bible.  There is 
not the slightest chance any of them have even a grain of truth 
to them.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1231)
To:      Andrea Landry                          21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: HI!!!                                  

AL> Hi! how are you on this fine day i hope your do'in fine! :)
AL> so are you a friend of Matt's?

AL>  MP>  Matt' been stopping too many pucks with his head lately and 
AL>  MP>  won't be on this echo for a week or so.

AL>  so is he that bad at hockey! :) hmmmm do you play hockey 
AL>  too? 

     Is the bear catholic?  Does a Canadian ...?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1232)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: JEFFERSON VS. FUNDIES                  

BS>     Attacks on godless officials were familiar in every 
BS>  epoch.  Probably the most notable target was Thomas 
BS>  Jefferson, the source of the principle of the wall of 
BS>  separation between church and state.  Jefferson, like 
BS>  Benjamin Franklin, was deeply suspicious of religion and of 
BS>  clergy wielding political power.  He wrote of an unholy 
BS>  triumvirate of people's enemies: "Kings, nobles or 
BS>  priests."

     Those are the only three professions where one can obtain 
power without ability.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1233)
To:      David Lentz                            21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: LIMBAUGH'S REIGN OF O                  

DL>  Vincent Foster was a trained lawyer, who we are lead to 
DL>  believe are men trained to reason.  Why would Foster 
DL>  believe that man found dead in a park at night with an 
DL>  unsigned note would be assumed to be a suicide victim?  Did 
DL>  Foster assume that the incompetent Park Police would bungle 
DL>  the investigation?

     Foster was found around 4-5pm.  The "suicide note" was found 
in his briefcase two days later when it was searched the second 
time.  Said briefcase was left in his office leading one to 
believe he had at least two and that was not his carry around 
status symbol one.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * This message was created before a live studio audience.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1234)
To:      Lester Garrett                         21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: MANSLAUGHTER CHARGED                   

LG>  ME>  CLEARWATER, FL - A woman who claimed she didn't have enough 
LG>  ME>  money for an abortion was charged with murder for allegedly 
LG>  ME>  killing her 6-month-old fetus by shooting herself in the 
LG>  ME>  womb.   .  .  .

LG>  If convicted, I suspect this one will wind up being 
LG>  appealed to the SC.

     And it will be an interesting case.  The SC has permitted 
"reasonable" restrictions on abortion by the states.  Florida 
state law is almost anything goes for the first six months.  
After that harm is criminal.  This fetus was technically six 
months and one week old.  

     I think the prosecutor is an idiot to think he can get any 
doctor to testify under oath as to the medical certainty of the 
one week that makes it criminal.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1235)
To:      Lester Garrett                         21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: MEANING OF THE 2ND    3/3              

     This is part 3 of 3.  I sent it from TABB and received it on 
Southern Systems, both in 1:377.  I have also noted they arrive 
as multi-part messages across the bay in 1:3603.  That all parts 
do not go national is not a local problem. 

MG>    [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

MG> letting them loose in the neighborhood that the ownership of
MG> housecats can be prohibited.

MG>                             * * * * *

MG> Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Drive, Dunedin Fl 34698

MG> Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


     I have asked both the TABB and Southern Systems sysops of 
they could find the problem.  Could you take a shot at it from 
your end?  Not being familiar with the nodelist I have no idea 
how to proceed on my own.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1236)
To:      Bob Klahn                              21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: MEDIA LIES                             

BK>  DL>  having been raped;   thirty-seven millions American without 
BK>  DL>  health insurance;  a homeless person dies every fourty-five 
BK>  DL>  seconds.  There

BK>   The 37 mill Americans without health insurance I tend to 
BK>   believe.  

     I will point out that Medicaid is not an insurance plan and 
therefore I would suggest the number, if true, is very 
misleading.  

     The implicit lie in Health on Wheels' use of the number is 
to equate the lack of medical insurance with the lack of medical 
care.  

     The Newspeak part of the propaganda campaign is to use 
health in place of medical as in insurance and care.  That makes 
the connection that the lack of health insurance means the lack 
of health in the same manner that life insurance is only of value 
when one is dead.  It is a subtle change but a valuable one for 
those pushing socialized medicine.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1237)
To:      Todd Rourke                            21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: MONUMENT MISSING                       

TR> AP 09/10/94

TR>     WACO, Texas (AP) -- A monument to the federal agents 
TR>  killed in the shootout at the Branch Davidian compound has 
TR>  disappeared.  A state road maintenance crew noticed last 
TR>  week that the metal plaque on top of a waist-high pole was 
TR>  missing, said Helen Havelka, a spokeswoman for the 
TR>  Department of Transportation.  The plaque was engraved with 
TR>  the names of the four U.S.  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and 
TR>  Firearms agents who were killed in the Feb.  28, 1993, 
TR>  standoff near Waco.  "I'm baffled," said Donnie Carter, 
TR>  special agent in charge of the Houston ATF office.  "My 
TR>  instinct tells me someone could have done it as a prank, or 
TR>  someone could have taken it because they didn't like it 
TR>  being there.  I don't know." The McLennan County Sheriff's 
TR>  Department is investigating.

     Next time they should be more creative and effective in 
expressing an opinion.  There is no message regarding a missing 
plaque to those who do not know there should be one and there is 
always the risk of prosecution for vandalism.  

     But decorating it with manure or the human equivalent if it 
is outside any corporate limits or using it as a pissing pole 
does express an opinion quite effectively and it is always there 
for all to see.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1238)
To:      Sandra Peake                           21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: MORE EVOLUTION                         

SP>   BTW, my reader was choking on the Debate echo, and when I 
SP>   kept having difficulties, my sysop cut it down to 100 
SP>   messages maximum.  I suspect this will impact on my ability 
SP>   to read and reply to posted items.

     Get speed reader or even robomail if you have a fast system.  
They are the only two I recommend and I have used them both.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1239)
To:      Bob Klahn                              21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: MTO                                    

BK>  JW>   stopped with Clinton.  I.E. nafta.

BK>   What do you want, he was the governor of Arkansas.  That's 
BK>   why my tag line is a shot at Clinton, not support for 
BK>   him.

BK> ... Don't blame me...I voted for a real democrat

     You mean you voted for Bush?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Debate/Poli-Phil - (1240)
To:      All                                    21 Sep 94 01:17:00
Subject: PROPOSITION 188                        

                      Miss Grundy Is Alive
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/20>

     This November Californians will be voting on Proposition
188.  Many municipalities in the state have passed different
variations of laws banning smoking in certain places.
Proposition 188 seeks to abolish all of them and institute one
uniform statewide law.
     Let me first point out that ANY law restricting freedom is
onerous.  The only merit to Proposition 188 is that it will
replace many severely restrictive laws and its greatest demerit
is that it will impose restrictions where there are no
restrictions.  Overall it is no different in spirit or temperament
than the local ordinances.
     Proposition 188 is a primary example of the reason why there
should NEVER be compromise with those who would take away
liberty.  Compromise always gives up some degree of liberty.  One
should never compromise with evil.
     What is interesting to consider is the overall basis that
supports anti-smoking laws.  The people who support these laws
were against smoking from the day they first formed an opinion on
the subject.  That they have jumped on to statistically
insignificant studies of harm to non-smokers has no bearing.
Scratch an anti-smoking advocate spouting statistics and you will
find their true intellectual depth extends to whining, "it
stinks."
     Were that not enough, they are not content to simply avoid
it themselves.  Rather they are intent upon saving everyone else
from this fate worse than death, that is, the smell.  The ballot
box, membership in a congregation or something else voluntary is
the only justification one person can use to speak for any other
much less a group of others.  Yet these folks are more than happy
to speak for all non-smokers as they had power of attorney from
all of them.
     Also they appear to get some kind of thrill by imagining
they are in the majority and championing the rights of the
majority.  They get this fantasy by seeing smokers are in the
minority and pretending all non-smokers are as rabidly and
irrationally anti-smoking as they.  They fail to note the vast
majority of non-smokers who are in the "don't care" category.
That category is the largest of them all outnumbering both
smokers and non-smokers.
     They invent their arguments as they go along and have
little interest in reason.  For example, in their pompous
assumption they can speak for others they plead for the trivial
minority with true allergies to tobacco smoke while ignoring its
true rarity (as opposed to who start coughing at the sight of an
unlit cigarette.)  They hold smoking at work bars them from jobs.
     Strangely they are silent about the 100 times more common
people with back problems who are in pain when standing and never
demand jobs that require standing be banned.  That would of
course be a rational position but they are not interested in a
rational position.  "EET STEENKS!"
     There is a character in the national psyche known as Miss
Grundy a name given by the late

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