The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_controv_9410


««■■ R_9410 ■■»»
+++■■■■■ r_941001 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (144)
To:      Jim Higgins                            28 Sep 94 02:05:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

JH>  JH>  Yeah, when do you predict the next patriot take a shot at
JH>  JH>  it?

JH>  MG>  I do not make such predictions.  Should there be a 
JH>  MG>  revolution the head of state is never a target.  Try and 
JH>  MG>  fail and he will redouble his efforts.  Try and succeed and 
JH>  MG>  his successor will be worse.  You need a reliable and 
JH>  MG>  unthreatened head of state to surrender on both sides.
JH>  MG> 
JH>  MG>  That is the real reason the leaders are kept safe from 
JH>  MG>  assassination.

JH> I wasn't talking revolution.  That would be throwing the
JH> baby out with the bath water.  Only two more years!

     Only two more years until we get the Republican variant on 
the same theme.  Sorry, I have seen it too many times to think 
the changes with parties is anything more than cosmetic.  They 
are both after our rights, simply in different areas.  The more 
we switch parties in control the faster we lose them -- rather 
the faster it becomes intolerable and we have to do something 
drastic to get them back.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ The right to buy guns is the right to be free.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (145)
To:      Jim Higgins                            28 Sep 94 02:09:10
Subject: Aliases                                

JH>  MG>  On the other hand, if you make it too secure they give up 
JH>  MG>  and beat the information out of you.  Your choice.

JH>  So if they are that desperate they will have no idea 
JH>  whether you are telling the truth or not.  Zap your key 
JH>  file and tell them it was the classic middle finger GIF.  
JH>  Screw 'em!  If they are going to kill you, they are going 
JH>  to kill you anyhow.

     From the top.  The value of the information determines the 
level of effort applied to obtaining it.  There is no way for one 
or a few persons to get away with very high security.  It will 
required a concerted effort by hundreds of people sending even 
birthday greetings encrypted.  An individual worth the effort 
must send many birthday greetings. 

     There is more to using encryption than simply using it.  
Consider if you send 50 clear messages a week and one encrypted.  
That certainly narrows down the problem and the decision on where 
to apply the time and effort.  Doctrine is required and it is not 
my field.  Perhaps we will find a volunteer with the requisite 
knowledge.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■                Barney Must Die!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (146)
To:      Linda Terrell                          28 Sep 94 02:23:10
Subject: another Vietnam?                       

LT> MG> LT> MG>
LT> MG> LT> MG>      1)   There is nothing to be positive about.
LT> MG>
LT> MG> LT>    Oh yes there is.  Clinton pisses off the Right.
LT> MG>
LT> MG>      Because the right does not like fascists.

LT>     Of course not -- can't have someone encroaching on the 
LT>  Right's territory.

     The US implementation of Fascism is the same as in Italy and 
Germany, total regulation of business.  That is the 
implementation of the definition.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Man is the only animal that laughs and has a Congress.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (147)
To:      Jim Higgins                            28 Sep 94 02:30:10
Subject: BIG BANG VARIATION                     

JH>  MG>  It hypothesizes it to be nothing in particular.  It only 
JH>  MG>  only a search for additional mass to cause the forms and 
JH>  MG>  rotation rates of galaxies that we observed.

JH>  The topic was expansion of the universe and possible 
JH>  eventual collapse.
JH> 
JH>  Yours is a very stingy answer from one who purports to have 
JH>  a degree in physics.  Granted there are many branches of 
JH>  physics, but whatever branch is yours you ought to be able 
JH>  to do better than this.  I am not a physicist and I can do 
JH>  better myself!  Here goes...
JH> 
JH>  We observe the rate at which far-away galaxies are receding 
JH>  and from this we have determined the rate of expansion of 
JH>  the universe.  IOW, we have determined the velocity of 
JH>  expansion.
JH> 
JH>  Now...  if there is to be an eventual collapse this velocity 
JH>  must be less than the "escape velocity" required for all 
JH>  matter in the universe to escape the mutual attraction of 
JH>  all other matter due to gravity.

JH>  The term missing from the equation is the total mass of the 
JH>  universe.

     Missing from the measurements (observation) is an change in 
the expansion, that is, if there is ever to be a collapse (which 
is required by nothing) then there has to be a rate of slowing 
down.  Even if there is no collapse in the future there still has 
to be some slowing down IF the universe has a significant amount 
of mass in it compared to its size.  

     I do not know the actual measured results but over the last 
fifty years and to the precision of our ability to measure there 
has been exactly zero observed decrease in the velocity of 
expansion.  That indicates the mass of the universe is trivial.

     However, you have not addressed the most serious reason why 
there is a search for missing mass.  There is no way to explain 
the structure of the galaxies we observe unless they are from 10 
to 100 times more massive than the stars we can observe suggest.  
That includes our own galaxy.

     Consider a spiral galaxy such as our that has been around 
for billions of years.  There is a distinct spiral structure.  
Yet the rate of rotation for each star varies with distance from 
the center.  It is like discovering the planets in our solar 
system have maintained an identifiable spiral for billions of 
years.  Yet there is no such structure.

     That there is such a structure in galaxies is completely 
unexplainable without that missing mass.

     Now that as a layman you have taken over the discussion how 
did you miss the most critical question, that galaxies as we know 
them can not exist as they are by everything we know?

JH>  Scientists have somehow come up with a working value for 
JH>  the total mass of observable matter, stars, gases within 
JH>  and between galaxies, all matter readily observable or 
JH>  detectable.
JH> 
JH>  They call this 'bright matter" as a term of convenience.
JH> 
JH>  They do not see enough "bright" matter to cause an eventual 
JH>  collapse.

     By a factor of 100 or more.

JH>  What is now sought is the total mass of "dark matter," 
JH>  matter not so readily observable.  This is the factor in 
JH>  the equation (actually merely a part of the total mass) 
JH>  which can tip the balance toward eventual collapse.

     No one knows what this dark matter might consist of.

JH>  Neutrinos are a very, very numerous form of fairly dark 
JH>  matter, and are included as such.  Again you are reminded 
JH>  that "dark matter" is a term of convenience, but it is one 
JH>  which is used by physicists themselves.

     All particles are completely dark by definition.  As for 
your reminder I am well aware of what is really meant by the 
term.

JH>  Our present high energy physics model of matter and the 
JH>  universe predicts there are an incredible number of 
JH>  assorted types of neutrinos zinging about.

     Six types actually of which two might have mass but that has 
largely been abandoned after the one Russian report of mass that 
could not be duplicated.  In absence of that measurement, 
neutrinos have zero mass as has been the evidence since they were 
first discovered.

JH>  This is no longer thought to be the case, although the 
JH>  mass, if present, is incredibly small.

     You missed the one measurement being discarded.

JH>  But there are so many neutrinos that it only requires 
JH>  assigning a very tiny mass to each to tip the balance as 
JH>  far as total mass in the universe and thus the difference 
JH>  between eternal expansion and eventual collapse.

     Save there is no measurable decrease in the rate of 
expansion.  

JH>  Again...  the neutrinos in question, and any other matter 
JH>  existing, but not yet readily detectible is conveniently 
JH>  called "dark matter."

     And you would discard the possibility that it might be all 
the billions of first generation stars?  Why?  You do know what 
first generation stars are do you not?  They were the most likely 
candidates but calculations show they would have only 1% of the 
mass needed.  Adding in the concentrations of hydrogen that did 
not become massive enough to become stars gets us up to about 3% 
of what is required.

JH>  Now, please provide specific refutation, without quibbling, 
JH>  defining all terms used if they seem to differ from my 
JH>  usage, no guile, no double-speak, etc.  I have written in 
JH>  the fragmented paragraphed style above to invite comment on 
JH>  each section as you might choose.

     I am not interested in refutation only in clearing up the 
false assumptions you are making and in pointing out what you 
have overlooked which are the current direction of the research.  
I also find it interesting you have missed the most serious 
scientific interest in missing mass, that galaxies as we observe 
them can not exist if our knowledge of gravity is correct.  

     Whether or not the universe ever collapses is trivial 
compared to that concern.  

JH>  MG> * RM 1.3 01261 * Even I am impressed with me.

JH> Obviously I'm not!

     And you can read why the feeling is mutual.

---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Matt Giwer, the most dangerous man on Controv. J Higgins
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (148)
To:      Jim Higgins                            28 Sep 94 02:53:10
Subject: Haiti revelation                       

JH>  MG>  Cedras was planning to export his form of government to the 
JH>  MG>  US.

JH> And in doing so interefered with Clinton's plans to do the
JH> same?

     Clinton was more concerned that the general public could not 
tell the difference between the two products.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (149)
To:      Linda Terrell                          28 Sep 94 02:55:10
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

LT> MG>       The soldiers I saw on camera were pissed off that they 
LT> MG>  were not permitted to stop it by direct orders.  While you 
LT> MG>  are asking Billie Jeff about those 15 rounds of ammunition 
LT> MG>  you might also ask him about his orders.

LT>     The "15 rounds of ammo" is a myth.  Pentabon Brass called 
LT>  Limbaugh to tell him it was a lie.  No sildier went out 
LT>  with less than 200 rounds and often much more.

     A public relations officer from Pope AFB called him and said 
that HE had more than 200 rds.  He also said that the late 
arrivals may have had less as they were not expected to face the 
brunt of the fighting if any.  He was not able to say 
definitively just how many rounds they had.

     I heard the PR officer's call, the OJ garbage busted the 
first two hours.  It was said that two of the troopers actually 
on the planes that were turned around called to report the number 
of rounds they had.  Anyone can call and say they are anyone and 
on passing a sanity check by the call screener they can get on.  

     However, no Pentagon Brass called him and the story stands 
as a disagreement between people who were involved in the 
operation.

LT> MG>  .  The best I heard was to get Cedras out of power.  That 
LT> MG>  is scheduled for next month.  So what are our troops doing 
LT> MG>  there?

LT>    to make sure he does it this time.

     Why waste the money?  Invade on the 16th if he is not gone.  
At the moment we have usurped control of the country in violation 
of the laws of that country -- again.

LT> MG>   The history of this president and the military is that 
LT> MG>  they die under his command because he will not support them 
LT> MG>  with the equipment they need.

LT>       another myth.  The equipment not sent to Somalia was 
LT>  on the *advice* of Pentagon Brass.  Blame them.

     It was the decision of Les Aspin, the man HE nominated to 
Secretary of Defense.  That was a political appointment.  Clinton 
is responsible for all of his appointments as they serve at his 
pleasure and have no civil service protection.  The buck stops in 
the Oval Office and it really does get there.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ One Finger is all a real American needs.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (150)
To:      Jim Higgins                            28 Sep 94 03:03:10
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

JH>  If we invade, it will be because Clinton knew nothing of 
JH>  the personal characteristics of Cedras and has fallen for 
JH>  the line of Aristide.  The first rule is to know your 
JH>  "enemy."

     It is simpler than that.  He was buying the Black vote.  
Democrat foreign policy is always governed by their internal 
political policy.  That is why Jim Wright was in Nicaragua 
supporting Ortega and why Ted Kennedy was soliciting Gorbechov's 
assistance against Reagan.  

     There needs be a change in the definition of traitor. 

JH>  Even Jimmy Carter, inept as he was, is far ahead of Clinton 
JH>  in knowing this simple fact.  This is what allowed him to 
JH>  actually negotiate a settlement which Clinton apparently 
JH>  did not even consider trying.

     For the second time by the simple expedient of talking to 
the other party.  It appears the other parties will not return 
calls from Billie Jeff.  They obviously have more important 
things to do, like sorting their sock drawer.

JH>  It is just more basic Clinton character being revealed...  
JH>  the force of law, the force of power, are the only tools he 
JH>  knows to make people do his will.

     Only force is simple enough for him to grasp.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (151)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        28 Sep 94 03:08:10
Subject: ONLY IN AMERICA                        

BS> MG>     Consider the impossible has happened.

BS> MG>     We now have a president that makes Jimmy Carter look good.

BS> MG>     What a country!

BS>  I was just reading "God's Bullies" a 1982 book by Perry 
BS>  Deane Young.
BS> 
BS>  He has a section on Jimmy Carter.  He mentions Roslyn, or 
BS>  whoever, saying she would never serve hard liquor in the 
BS>  White House.  Later he quotes a reporter saying Carter was 
BS>  drinking a double martini a plane trip.

     In the south women are the arbiters of the family's 
morality.  The men are never expected to agree with them save at 
home.  It is the more traditional family relationship.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Are you posting with your eyes open or using The Force.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (152)
To:      Ian Lin                                28 Sep 94 03:10:10
Subject: weather                                

IL>  No, our summers ease into autumn and then winter.  First 
IL>  snow usually doesn't fall until November or sometimes the 
IL>  end of October around here.  Right now, temperatures are 
IL>  still from 14 to 22 C (57 F to 71.6 F).

     You high is four degrees lower than my morning low.  Your 
current low is my expected high in Jan and Feb.  I can also add 
that Canadians go swimming in the Gulf in the middle of winter 
and are not bothered by the temperature.

     Winter here is scheduled for Jan and Feb but it is barely a 
moderate autumn.

IL>  MG>  You need to study meteorology also.  Compare your 
IL>  MG>  temperatures to and inland city like Kansas City in 
IL>  MG>  summer.

IL>  I compared the temperatures very well, I think.  LA has a 
IL>  large body of water beside it and so does Kingston.

     Which body of water do you have that you consider equivalent 
to the Pacific Ocean?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (169)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        28 Sep 94 13:46:10
Subject: ANIMAL INTELLIGENCE                    

BS> MG>IL> Did you check the source I gave you for animal intelligence?

BS> MG>     No and I was not particularly interested in it.

BS> Proof of animal intelligence, even if only very limited?

BS> Pangborn
BS> von Busse
BS> Grimsley
BS> Scheidt
BS> Summers

     You do realize that most people would include you is a list 
with them under a different set of criteria.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■               I don't call 911.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (170)
To:      Dick Roebelt                           28 Sep 94 13:48:10
Subject: Declaration of Independe               

DR> MG>DR> MG>             For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

DR> MG>DR> MG>     and yet we do not tax anyone who does not live within the 50
DR> MG>DR> MG>states as they do not have elected representation.

DR> MG>DR>     Matt, who told you that???

DR> MG>DR>     You of all people should know better.

DR> MG>     Puerto Ricans and natives of US possessions do not pay any
DR> MG>direct taxes and get a full range of welfare benefits.  If you
DR> MG>stay out of the 50 states for a year you do not pay direct taxes.
DR> MG>Can you come up with a contrary example?  The exception to this
DR> MG>was DC under the presumption of the Congressional DC was
DR> MG>sufficient for representation.

DR>      They don't pay INCOME tax (ala 1040 etal).  The rest of 
DR>  the federal taxes (excises) are basically the same as found 
DR>  in every state.

     Excise taxes and duties are on things not on people.  Thus 
the people do not pay taxes.  At best some level of the selling 
chain collects taxes for the government very like a sales tax.  
People do not pay them.  

     You may consider this a nit pick but it is a critical 
distinction even in the constitution given the art 1 sec 8 
revenue raising powers as opposed to the 16th amendment and the 
inherent conflict between the two regarding taxation of 
individuals directly.  

DR>     If you read some of the newer amendments to the tax code 
DR>  (in the past 5 years) each contains language that defines 
DR>  the territories/posessions as a "state" for the purpose of 
DR>  the tax code.

     And?  Puerto Ricans still do not pay federal taxes.  It does 
operate as a state and there are local taxes but those are 
established by locally elected officials not by the federal 
appointed "governor" or whatever he is called these days, the 
position might have even been abolished.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (174)
To:      Willie Martin                          28 Sep 94 14:11:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark                     

On 09/26/94 WILLIE MARTIN to MATT GIWER on Flood / Noah's Ark

WM>  What's the matter Matt are you trying to get rid of me.  You 
WM>  know full well that if I posted the Noah's Flood study that 
WM>  I have made they would kick me off the echo.  

     Even I can't get kicked off of this echo.  What is stopping 
you?  (Right Dr. Hill?)

Is that what 
WM>  you really want.  I know that there are some Jews in the 
WM>  Political Echo that would like to do that to me.  But I 
WM>  don't really think you do, as we are both fans of Rush.  Or 
WM>  at least I didn't think you did.

     Why would you take it personally?  There has been more flood 
crap posted here over the years than you could possibly post.  It 
is also unlikely you could post anything new.




---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Eat anything that doesn't eat you first.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (175)
To:      Charles Hill                           28 Sep 94 14:11:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark                     

On 09/26/94 WILLIE MARTIN to MATT GIWER on Flood / Noah's Ark

WM>  What's the matter Matt are you trying to get rid of me.  You 
WM>  know full well that if I posted the Noah's Flood study that 
WM>  I have made they would kick me off the echo.  

     Even I can't get kicked off of this echo.  What is stopping 
you?  (Right Dr. Hill?)

Is that what 
WM>  you really want.  I know that there are some Jews in the 
WM>  Political Echo that would like to do that to me.  But I 
WM>  don't really think you do, as we are both fans of Rush.  Or 
WM>  at least I didn't think you did.

     Why would you take it personally?  There has been more flood 
crap posted here over the years than you could possibly post.  It 
is also unlikely you could post anything new.




---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Eat anything that doesn't eat you first.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (229)
To:      All                                    30 Sep 94 01:21:00
Subject: THE GOLD WATCH                         

                         The Gold Watch
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/30>

     Florida has, or rather had, an "impact fee" of $295 for cars
brought into the state from another state.  The State Supreme
Court found this fee to be unconstitutional and the money
refunded.  And immediately the state claimed it would harm
education if the money had to be refunded.
     Ah, the Gold Watch approach.  It is not an obvious Gold
Watch so let me go a step further.  When the state was promoting
the lottery the deal was that the revenues would go to schools.
As soon as there was a lottery and the revenues started coming in
the state took the school budget, subtracted lottery revenues and
appropriated the difference.
     Rather than the implication that the lottery would be over
and above the minimum budget the schools got no more and other
projects were funded.  These are unrelated to education.  Were
the people had by the politicians?  Is the bear Catholic?
     Fine but now that the threat of having to refund the fees,
$295 million or so, the state is saying what?  You have three
seconds to guess.  Time is up.  The schools will be harmed.  If
you did not guess that you need to go back to square one in your
knowledge of politics.
     The state Supreme Court decision was news on the 28th as was
the state claim that it would harm the schools.  On the 29th in
the morning there were the first statements from the schools as
to the harm.  By the evening news on the 29th there were human
interest stories as to a teacher having $150 to to spend "perhaps
to help this immigrant child learn English."  Are there any tears
no jerking out there?
     Look at the genesis of school funding as outlined above.
Sounds to me that if the state has to refund the unconstitutional
impact fees that it is the other programs that will suffer and
not the schools.  That is of course if the politicians are
telling the truth.
     But then the media will seek out the truth?  Just how much
did you pay for that bridge?
     Yes, I am in Florida but this does not apply only to
Florida.  Dozens of states pushed the lottery on the basis of an
aid to education and they all pulled the same trick of defunding
the schools from general revenues by the amount of lottery
revenues.  This is the first case of a reversal of the gambit and
I point out the fraud the politicians and the lap dog media will
perpetrate upon the state.
     I have written this up on the Federal level more than once
and I have included the media in the accusation at that level.  I
post here the natural tendency of the media to support the
government at the state level also.  When the government lies to
us the "watchdog" media will swear to it.
     This is just one more example of the scam used to raise
taxes despite the plain will of the people.  The willingness of
the voters to believe in something for nothing is possible to
have something for nothing is not to be forgotten but neither is
a politician promising something for nothing.
     In any event here is one more example of the short term
nature of any political promise and the use of that promise
against the people.  This may be a trivial example but an
illustrative example.  Look for it coming to a state near you
soon.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-969-0362


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Even I am impressed.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941008 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (134)
To:      Scott Summers                           4 Oct 94 11:04:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

SS> Did you call that # I gave you?

     No.  It got packed up in the move.  Care to repost it?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■               I don't call 911.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (135)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         4 Oct 94 11:05:10
Subject: ONLY IN AMERICA                        

BS> MG>      In the south women are the arbiters of the family's  
BS> MG> morality.  The men are never expected to agree with them 
BS> MG> save at  home.  It is the more traditional family 
BS> MG> relationship.

BS> Also in Arkansas?

BS>  You mean we have a traditional southern family in the White 
BS>  House?

     Yep.  Hillary never larned any better and Billie Jeff was 
raised by his mommy.  Realizing that all he did was trade mother 
figures makes them quite understandable.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (138)
To:      All                                     4 Oct 94 12:28:10
Subject: 2 hr Waco report                       

     A couple days ago I forwarded a source for the KPOC-TV two 
hour report "The Waco Incident."  I called today and verified the 
information.

     Credit card 405-767-8827.

     Mail (check)

          KPOC-TV

          114 W. Central
     
          Ponco City, Oklahoma 74601

     Price $23.45 includes S&H.

     One of the items covered is an interview with the Commander 
of Ft. Hood who says the active military was used in Waco and 
that he was ordered by the FBI to shut up or else.

     As a side note, the FCC threatened to pull the license of 
the satellite company originally scheduled to carry it IF they 
carried it.  It was dropped from F-2 transponder 5 because of the 
threat.  It was carried on F-1/18 instead.

     Sounds hot to me.
     

---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ My every message, a conference unto itself.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (139)
To:      Michael Shirley                         4 Oct 94 13:23:10
Subject: Civilians And assault we               

MS>          As it is, the police never informed the public 
MS>  about the threat, and two weeks after the first incident, 
MS>  the first victim went to the local news media.  Then again, 
MS>  I shoudln't be surprized at that.  Makes me glad that I 
MS>  acquired some good steel core ammo while it was still 
MS>  available.  It would appear that some badguys are wearing 
MS>  armor these days,.......

     Head shots, ma boy, head shots.  With the small size body 
target, the body on it is head sized.  Quite convenient for 
practice.  Hit that "body" at 21 feet and you can hit a head 
inside a house.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Visit the Hannibal Lechter Dinner Theater.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (140)
To:      All                                     4 Oct 94 13:27:10
Subject: Creationism ONLY                       

     The subject of this thread is the validity of the idea of 
creation.  This is also a test.  NO creationist will be able to 
stay on topic.  Mention of evolution is NOT on topic.  

     This will demonstrate creationism has no substance save in 
propaganda attacks upon evolution.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Though I walk thru the valley, I am the meanest SOB.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (152)
To:      All                                     5 Oct 94 09:51:10
Subject: The Basis of Law                       

                        The Basis of Law
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/4>

     In determining what is a just and proper law a Constitution
is not required.  That is an incumbrance the people of the
states put upon the have put upon the federal and state
constitutions based upon a well learned distrust of government.
There is another way to approach the passage of laws that does
not need guidelines.
     Laws (or rules or traditions depending upon size) are only
established by groups of people.  It is obvious the only place
laws are needed are when there are groups of people.  And as with
the rules of a family the purpose of laws is to create and
preserve the order of society.
     The preservation of order as the basis for law is certainly
a solid basis.  If the society is not preserved then the benefits
of that society can not continue.  And certainly people must
think there are benefits else they would leave the society.
     The question arises as to how much order is required for
preservation.  Obviously there are societies where everything not
prescribed is proscribed but these tend to dissolve in some form
of revolution.  Societies that are under ordered dissolve into
chaos.
     Thus there is both a minimum and maximum level of ordering
that will preserve a society.  Thus as long as a society falls
within these bounds it will continue and its laws have a sound
basis.
     There can be laws which are not related to the preservation
of society.  What of them?  Generally these are laws which in
some manner or other are perceived as doing some good but have no
direct relation to the preservation of society.
     For example, a law against murder will help preserve the
society as who would choose to live in a society with murder or
put up with it.  A zoning law certainly has no impact upon the
preservation of society.  And thus the question, does a society
have an interest in laws having nothing to do with the
preservation of society?
     Laws which clearly preserve society may work a hardship upon
some but that hardship is clearly the price of membership in that
society even if it should benefit some others.  A law which
simply makes things "nicer" or "better" in the opinion of some is
clearly a law for their benefit without regard to the hardship it
works upon others.  There is clearly no reason to accept the
hardship; merely to tolerate it at best.
     Of course if we are talking of a monarchy or dictatorship
there is little question of who the "better" laws benefit, those
who rule the country.  When it comes a society that has
specifically created the government it becomes a question as to
the validity of one group passing or obtaining a law to its own
benefit at the expense of another group.  It is not clear such a
government differs from a band of random thieves save it is
acting under the color of government.
     This abhorrence of a pure democracy by those who founded this
country was one of the reasons for the elaborate safeguards that
were built into our US Constitution to prevent exactly that.
There was the specific delegation of powers to the government and
if it was not clear enough the 10th amendment was added to say in
a polite manner, and that means ONLY those powers, dummy.
     In order to minimize the chances of there being a private
agreement to subvert the limitations set out in the Constitution
it established three independent branches of government in the
belief they would be be at each other's throats and keep any one
from dominating the government.  It was not their intention that
political parties should subvert that separation of powers.
     Consider a group of people carefully crafting three separate
and equal branches of government as a means of keeping that
government under control.  Imagine their response to a situation
where the mood of many in the country and among many elected
officials to the idea that if one party controls the Executive
and Legislative branches it should pack the Judicial Branch and
pass all the legislation it wishes.
     They included the power of the states to not only elect the
president and appoint Senators to give the states the power
independently limit the power and direction of the federal
government.  The rise of political parties subverted both
controls.  
     As there arose two parties effectively sharing the power of
government the Electoral College election of the President as
members of the College are appointed by the parties. And once
there were parties were established the appointment of Senators
by the state directly mirrored the popular vote.  Thus the direct
election of Senators can be seen as progressive as compared to
direct election of the President which we do not have as both
always mirror the political parties.
     Thus in this country we have lost sight of the concept of
the minimum laws necessary for survival of the our country and
have embraced a policy of promoting the advancement of the
parties.  That we do not see them jackbooting around giving
orders does not change the fact.  It is difficult to impossible
to find a long term politician that is not rich beyond the
possibilities of their official income.  If they had personal or
family money it is certainly impossible to explain their wealth.
     And the citizens, aligned by party, ignore the interests of
the country and vote for their party like they root for their
football team.  It is a fine rallying cry but when important
decisions are before the country, a decision between a necessary
law and an unnecessary law, support is along party lines, not
country lines.
     This may appear a harsh or improper judgement but there is
no way to justify that the best person for a government job
appointment just happens to always have the right party loyalty.
No one can make the case Janet Reno is other than the third best,
democrat woman for the job of Attorney General.
     The party system is not only the reason the country has lost
sight of the concept of necessary laws only but also of the
ability to restrain itself from unnecessary laws.  The ultimate
fate of the country under such a system appears to me to be the
same as that of a monarchy or dictatorship that has created law
for its own benefit.  At some point there will be too much
imposed order and there will be dissolution in rebellion.
That is unfortunate.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ "Bill survives Hil attack, two Sec Service Agents injured."
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (153)
To:      All                                     5 Oct 94 10:37:00
Subject: 2 hr Waco report                       

     A couple days ago I forwarded a source for the KPOC-TV two 
hour report "The Waco Incident."  I called today and verified the 
information.

     Credit card 405-767-8827.

     Mail (check)

          KPOC-TV

          114 W. Central
     
          Ponco City, Oklahoma 74601

     Price $23.45 includes S&H.

     One of the items covered is an interview with the Commander 
of Ft. Hood who says the active military was used in Waco and 
that he was ordered by the FBI to shut up or else.

     As a side note, the FCC threatened to pull the license of 
the satellite company originally scheduled to carry it IF they 
carried it.  It was dropped from F-2 transponder 5 because of the 
threat.  It was carried on F-1/18 instead.

     Sounds hot to me.
     

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * My every message, a conference unto itself.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (154)
To:      All                                     5 Oct 94 10:37:00
Subject: The Basis of Law                       

                        The Basis of Law
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/4>

     In determining what is a just and proper law a Constitution
is not required.  That is an incumbrance the people of the
states put upon the have put upon the federal and state
constitutions based upon a well learned distrust of government.
There is another way to approach the passage of laws that does
not need guidelines.
     Laws (or rules or traditions depending upon size) are only
established by groups of people.  It is obvious the only place
laws are needed are when there are groups of people.  And as with
the rules of a family the purpose of laws is to create and
preserve the order of society.
     The preservation of order as the basis for law is certainly
a solid basis.  If the society is not preserved then the benefits
of that society can not continue.  And certainly people must
think there are benefits else they would leave the society.
     The question arises as to how much order is required for
preservation.  Obviously there are societies where everything not
prescribed is proscribed but these tend to dissolve in some form
of revolution.  Societies that are under ordered dissolve into
chaos.
     Thus there is both a minimum and maximum level of ordering
that will preserve a society.  Thus as long as a society falls
within these bounds it will continue and its laws have a sound
basis.
     There can be laws which are not related to the preservation
of society.  What of them?  Generally these are laws which in
some manner or other are perceived as doing some good but have no
direct relation to the preservation of society.
     For example, a law against murder will help preserve the
society as who would choose to live in a society with murder or
put up with it.  A zoning law certainly has no impact upon the
preservation of society.  And thus the question, does a society
have an interest in laws having nothing to do with the
preservation of society?
     Laws which clearly preserve society may work a hardship upon
some but that hardship is clearly the price of membership in that
society even if it should benefit some others.  A law which
simply makes things "nicer" or "better" in the opinion of some is
clearly a law for their benefit without regard to the hardship it
works upon others.  There is clearly no reason to accept the
hardship; merely to tolerate it at best.
     Of course if we are talking of a monarchy or dictatorship
there is little question of who the "better" laws benefit, those
who rule the country.  When it comes a society that has
specifically created the government it becomes a question as to
the validity of one group passing or obtaining a law to its own
benefit at the expense of another group.  It is not clear such a
government differs from a band of random thieves save it is
acting under the color of government.
     This abhorrence of a pure democracy by those who founded this
country was one of the reasons for the elaborate safeguards that
were built into our US Constitution to prevent exactly that.
There was the specific delegation of powers to the government and
if it was not clear enough the 10th amendment was added to say in
a polite manner, and that means ONLY those powers, dummy.
     In order to minimize the chances of there being a private
agreement to subvert the limitations set out in the Constitution
it established three independent branches of government in the
belief they would be be at each other's throats and keep any one
from dominating the government.  It was not their intention that
political parties should subvert that separation of powers.
     Consider a group of people carefully crafting three separate
and equal branches of government as a means of keeping that
government under control.  Imagine their response to a situation
where the mood of many in the country and among many elected
officials to the idea that if one party controls the Executive
and Legislative branches it should pack the Judicial Branch and
pass all the legislation it wishes.
     They included the power of the states to not only elect the
president and appoint Senators to give the states the power
independently limit the power and direction of the federal
government.  The rise of political parties subverted both
controls.  
     As there arose two parties effectively sharing the power of
government the Electoral College election of the President as
members of the College are appointed by the parties. And once
there were parties were established the appointment of Senators
by the state directly mirrored the popular vote.  Thus the direct
election of Senators can be seen as progressive as compared to
direct election of the President which we do not have as both
always mirror the political parties.
     Thus in this country we have lost sight of the concept of
the minimum laws necessary for survival of the our country and
have embraced a policy of promoting the advancement of the
parties.  That we do not see them jackbooting around giving
orders does not change the fact.  It is difficult to impossible
to find a long term politician that is not rich beyond the
possibilities of their official income.  If they had personal or
family money it is certainly impossible to explain their wealth.
     And the citizens, aligned by party, ignore the interests of
the country and vote for their party like they root for their
football team.  It is a fine rallying cry but when important
decisions are before the country, a decision between a necessary
law and an unnecessary law, support is along party lines, not
country lines.
     This may appear a harsh or improper judgement but there is
no way to justify that the best person for a government job
appointment just happens to always have the right party loyalty.
No one can make the case Janet Reno is other than the third best,
democrat woman for the job of Attorney General.
     The party system is not only the reason the country has lost
sight of the concept of necessary laws only but also of the
ability to restrain itself from unnecessary laws.  The ultimate
fate of the country under such a system appears to me to be the
same as that of a monarchy or dictatorship that has created law
for its own benefit.  At some point there will be too much
imposed order and there will be dissolution in rebellion.
That is unfortunate.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Bill survives Hil attack, two Sec Service Agents injured."

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (158)
To:      Jim Higgins                             5 Oct 94 12:54:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

JH>  MG>  Only two more years until we get the Republican variant on 
JH>  MG>  the same theme.  Sorry, I have seen it too many times to 
JH>  MG>  think the changes with parties is anything more than 
JH>  MG>  cosmetic.  They are both after our rights, simply in 
JH>  MG>  different areas.  The more we switch parties in control the 
JH>  MG>  faster we lose them -- rather the faster it becomes 
JH>  MG>  intolerable and we have to do something drastic to get them 
JH>  MG>  back.

JH>  No serious argument, but the Clintons surely are several 
JH>  magnitudes worse then anything in recent history as far as 
JH>  assaults on rights go.  It is in that context I said "Only 
JH>  two more years!"

     And I am pointing out that will be a false sense of relief.  
As the trend is toward the loss of rights and that there is no 
reversal whatsoever, it is better to have things come quickly.  
That way the frog knows it is being boiled.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ 333 a beast, 333 a beast, 333 a beast onward, in the valley
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (159)
To:      Jim Higgins                             5 Oct 94 12:57:10
Subject: Aliases                                

JH>  From the top.  They have no idea what is important and what 
JH>  is a middle finger GIF now.  

     Speaking of which a file converted to any of the dozen or so 
of other graphics formats is also a place to start prior to zip 
and encrypt.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ This message was created before a live studio audience.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (160)
To:      Jim Higgins                             5 Oct 94 12:59:10
Subject: big bang                               

JH>  MG>  When you learn something on the subject you will learn that 
JH>  MG>  such molecules will form in the lowest energy state 
JH>  MG>  possible rather than in an energy state that is impossibly 
JH>  MG>  high in this reality.

JH>  About as "impossibly high" as a sufficiently large quantum 
JH>  fluctuation in the energy level of nothing required to 
JH>  create our universe?

     If you look at the energetics of a chemical reaction you 
find there is a limit.  The requirement to achieve 0.4 c is 
greatly in excess of what can be stored in an atom or molecule.  
That much energy would prevent the formation of a molecule.

     The quantum fluctuation energy level is another matter.  It 
is all a matter of statistics.  NO energy level is impermissible.  
In our universe with the form of time we have it is simply that 
the chance of it happening in this universe is vanishingly small 
compared to the present age of the universe.

     However, prior to there being time it is a certainty that it 
will happen.  That is difficult to imagine so presume there was 
time and nothing only.  As there was no one around with a stop 
watch a near infinite amount of time could have passed before it 
happened for our universe.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (163)
To:      Jim Higgins                             5 Oct 94 13:11:10
Subject: BIG BANG VARIATION                     

JH>  MG>  Missing from the measurements (observation) is an change in 
JH>  MG>  the expansion, that is, if there is ever to be a collapse 
JH>  MG>  (which is required by nothing) then there has to be a rate 
JH>  MG>  of slowing down.  Even if there is no collapse in the 
JH>  MG>  future there still has to be some slowing down IF the 
JH>  MG>  universe has a significant amount of mass in it compared to 
JH>  MG>  its size.
JH>  MG> 
JH>  MG>  I do not know the actual measured results but over the last 
JH>  MG>  fifty years and to the precision of our ability to measure 
JH>  MG>  there has been exactly zero observed decrease in the 
JH>  MG>  velocity of expansion.  That indicates the mass of the 
JH>  MG>  universe is trivial.

JH>  I think, given your caveats on ability to measure and the 
JH>  VERY SHORT time span over which we have been measuring, it 
JH>  indicates NOTHING about the mass of the universe.  

     Our measurements of radioactive decay over roughly the same 
time span have established universal constants are not changing 
to a level of accuracy as to make the question immaterial.  That 
is, good for billions of years worth of no change that would be 
significant to anything we are using today in science or 
engineering.

     You may not be aware that these shifts done to parts per 
billion or better.  When one can say "if it exists then it is 
less than" some very small number it can be directly related to 
the amount of mass in the extent of the universe as we can 
observe it.

     This means the measurements are good enough to say IF 
contraction is going to happen then it will be long after heat 
death.  At that point it is hardly more than idle speculation as 
it can not effect anything we are dealing with today.

You MUST 
JH>  know the actual measured results and the error limits on 
JH>  them to make the statements you have and have them carry 
JH>  any meaning whatsoever!  You admit you do not know them, so 
JH>  you are either unaware of the need to assure your 
JH>  measurements are accurate, precise and above the noise 
JH>  level, or you are just bluffing and blustering.

     The error limits are as in saying, If happening then less 
than.  It is like saying IF there is some substance in your 
drinking water and it is tested for and not found then, IF it is 
present then it is less than x parts per Xillion.  Parts per 
billion are common these days.  That is the confidence level of 
interest.

     This is a different concept than error limits.  To have 
plural limits you have to have a positive measurement to say plus 
or minus error bounds.  In this case we have the, it may be so 
small as to be beyond our ability to measure and our limits to 
measure are ...

     This further brings up the point that there is NO necessary 
reason to expect the universe to contract.  It is a only a 
possibility people have considered.  The search for the fifth 
force and tachyons had a basis in measurement and theory 
respectively.  The idea of contraction comes from no observation 
or theory.  It is no more than speculation nor any different than 
suggesting the universe might start blinking.

JH>  MG>  I am not interested in refutation only in clearing up the 
JH>  MG>  false assumptions you are making and in pointing out what 
JH>  MG>  you have overlooked which are the current direction of the 
JH>  MG>  research.  I also find it interesting you have missed the 
JH>  MG>  most serious scientific interest in missing mass, that 
JH>  MG>  galaxies as we observe them can not exist if our knowledge 
JH>  MG>  of gravity is correct.

JH>  You deny what I say and claim a degree in physics, and 
JH>  don't feel an obligation to provide specific refutation? 
JH>  OK, so be it, but you will understand when I ignore most of 
JH>  what you say.

     There is no basis for refutation.  The answer is the same as 
to creationists, there is no evidence for creation and there is 
no evidence for any contraction.  Were there evidence or theory 
that might suggest contraction then that would have to be 
addressed.  In this case there is nothing to address.  You are 
effectively saying, prove it can't happen. 

JH>  MG> Whether or not the universe ever collapses is trivial
JH>  MG> compared to that concern.

JH> Quite so, but it was NOT the topic of discussion, eventual
JH> collapse was.

     In that regard, provide reason in observation or theory to 
support the idea that it should.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Eat anything that doesn't eat you first.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (171)
To:      Bert Byfield                            5 Oct 94 13:40:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark                     

BB>  Let him take it personally.  When I was at the Bund 
BB>  meeting, after sacrificing several Christian children on 
BB>  the Hebrew altar, 

     It is good to see you have ceased exsanguinating Aryan 
virgins.  They are in such short supply these days.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ My every message, a conference unto itself.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941012 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (25)
To:      Jj Judkins                              8 Oct 94 11:25:10
Subject: 3/3:Mt.Carmel                          

JJ>  MG>  Why would you not present a verifiable source of evidence 
JJ>  MG>  for that assertion?

JJ>  Prove top me that he WAS a good person.

     In other words you have no source for the information.  You 
made it up.  You are a fool.

JJ>  Was he a good father?  No.  He allowed, in fact, demanded 
JJ>  his children be kept in the compound knowing there was 
JJ>  extreme danger.  As a father that is reason enough for me 
JJ>  for his termination.  

     There goes your fantasy life again.  There was no danger and 
you know it.  The FBI said there was no danger and that they 
would wait as long as it took for the BDs to voluntarily leave.  
Why would you invent the idea there was any danger?  

     You invent danger where there was no danger only to justify 
condemning Koresh in your rather sick fantasy life.

I started to say he was also a 
JJ>  bigamist, but I don't remember hearing if he was legaly 
JJ>  married to any of his "wives." Now, that brings up another 
JJ>  thing.  Part of the "wives" were underage.  

     They are not "wives unless they is a legal marriage.  And of 
course it is all in your imagination any way.  Unless of course 
you would like to provide evidence to the contrary from a 
reliable source -- but you can not.  There is none.  It is all in 
your mind.

JJ>  least statuatory rape I believe, depending what state you 
JJ>  are in.  In Texas, I'm not sure if it was considered so, 
JJ>  but probably was.

     In Texas the age is 14.  Other than that, what you believe 
is your business.  When you post garbage you risk being called on 
it.  I will point out, if everything you state is true, Priscilla 
Presley does not appear to have suffered for the same treatment 
at the hands of Elvis.

JJ>  MG>  Why would you not present a verifiable source of evidence 
JJ>  MG>  for that assertion?

JJ>  Mainly because I don't remember the names of those who were 
JJ>  interviewed.  One, I believe, was one of the "wives", 
JJ>  another a congregation member who saw what was going down 
JJ>  and got out a few months before Waco.

     Of course you can not remember as there is no such source.  

JJ>  Damn, Matt, I wish you lived closer.  I have something you 
JJ>  need real bad.  A kitten.  

     Was that intended to be rational?

JJ>  MG> In court they swore they had no such profile.  It was denied
JJ>  MG> by the FBI in several press conferences.  Why would you claim
JJ>  MG> they had one?

JJ> It was assumed.  They have them on all their case subjects was my
JJ> understanding.

     In other words you assume what does not exist and then 
believe according to you assumptions.  Is that rational?

JJ>  MG> Because you do not believe the testimony of prosecution
JJ>  MG> witnesses is a much better reason.

JJ>  I have yet to  see any testimony.  All I have heard is 
JJ>  "Prosecution says" and stuff like that.

     What you should have read were the postings of the newspaper 
coverage.  They were all over the conferences and networks during 
the trial.

JJ>  JJ> Again, it might have been UNTILL they fired on the BATF.

JJ>  MG> YOU originally stated they came to arrest Koresh.  You are
JJ>  MG> now admitting your original statement was not true.

JJ>  No I'm not.  I'm allowing the remote possibility thet you 
JJ>  were right.  EITHER way madman koresh and his wacko's had 
JJ>  no rights firing on the agents.

     As YOU KNOW, the BATF came running out of the horse trailers 
throwing grenades into the house and shooting the dogs.  That 
much is prosecution testimony.  It was also prosecution testimony 
that Koresh an two other people appeared at the door unarmed.

     As you also know the jury found they were provoked by the 
BATF into shooting at the BATF.  

     Tell me, why do you think the Davidians were required to put 
up with grenades being tossed into their home and their pets 
being slaughtered by people who had not announced their 
possession of a warrant?  Without a warrant they are called 
targets.  But you know that.

JJ> The key point is he knowingly fired on federal officers.

     It makes no difference what they were.  Until they announced 
they had a warrant they had no right to do anything.  Without 
that announcement they had no protection from being shot.  As you 
know they did NOT announce they had a warrant and had NO plans to 
do so.

JJ>  MG>  When a transcript is prepared I will get a copy of it.  I 
JJ>  MG>  will even post where to get a copy for everyone.  I presume 
JJ>  MG>  you will read it then.

JJ> Oh, I'll read it...

JJ>  MG>  When was the last time you voted on the BATF policy to 
JJ>  MG>  secure the victims and THEN serve the warrant.  That was 
JJ>  MG>  stated several times in the press conferences.

JJ>  What did you expect them to do?  

     Knock on the door.  Give them a call first.  Take Koresh up 
on his offer to come out and look at his gun purchases.  At the 
minimum I would have expected them to announce they had a 
warrant.  That would take a bullhorn at most.  They did none of 
that.

JJ>   There was a potential for violent resistance.  

     Crap.  EVERY traffic stop is potentially dangerous. 

Only a fool would go into an armed and 
JJ>  hostile residence and tell them they had to let him search 
JJ>  it or else, which is exactly what you say they should have 
JJ>  done.  They have a term for that.  Suicide.

     As you KNOW.  There was NO, ZERO, NADA reason to believe 
there was any danger.  However, post your imaginings, but make 
certain they come from a verifiable source this time.  

JJ>   When you live in a democratic society you either live by 
JJ>  the rules or change them by democratic process.  You don't 
JJ>  break them.

     The government follows the rules also, even if they are the 
BATF.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 1.  Kill them before they burn you alive.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (29)
To:      Ken Pangborn                            8 Oct 94 12:07:10
Subject: cadet Shannon                          

KP>  KP>          Shit Matt when are you going to learn that these
KP>  KP>  laws apply ONLY to MEN! That women are SPECIAL! If you
KP>  KP>  believe that the NOW gang has ANY concept of the word
KP>  KP>  "EQUAITY" that they toss about, you're delusional! It is
KP>  KP>  about CONTROL Matt................  Lesbian Academic Mafia
KP>  KP>  CONTROL! Sieg Heil! Why do you think they are called
KP>  KP>  "FEMINAZIS?"

KP>  MG> RICO is also civil.  Perhaps you folks can pool your
KP>  MG> resources.

KP>          Matt I won't barge into a long diatribe on women 
KP>  and criminal law suffice me to ask you just how many MEN 
KP>  did Walkin' Lawton spring from prison in the past year for 
KP>  murdering their wives?

     When was the scold's bridle forsaken?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ BATF Motto "Let God sort out the innocent!"
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (76)
To:      All                                     9 Oct 94 00:58:10
Subject: To Err is Required                     

                       To Err is Required
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/09>

     In our system of government and law we hold to many
principles in its execution.  When it comes to criminal matters
where there are penalties involving the loss of liberty if not
life itself, we hold one to be above all else.  It is better for
the guilty to go free than for the innocent to be punished
wrongfully.
     This principle required that if there is to be an error in
judgement that it be in favor of the least harm, that is,
innocence.  This is a reasonable principle.  If there is a
question of guilt or innocence then innocence is the proper
finding.
     Similarly we have enumerated rights and as citizens we have
charged our government with protecting those rights.  Those
rights are as fundamental as our need to be protected from the
power of the state gaining a conviction of the innocent.  Thus it
would appear equally prudent, when there comes a question as to a
right or the extent of that right that there be a similar error
in favor of that right.
     Thus if there is a question of the right to free speech and
the government's obligation to protect that right then it is
clear the government itself, in light of its obligation to
protect that right, is required to start with the assumption that
the question must be decided in the favor of that right lacking
overwhelming government interest an alternate interpretation.
     Is this what we have?  No, it is the opposite of what we
have.  The Supreme Court has held that if a person does not
vigorously speak of a his rights at all points he has lost them.
That is hardly erring on the side of the government's obligation
to protect our specified rights.
     In addition the sequence of the infringement of our rights
has followed from a progression of exceedingly legalistic
convolutions that only a lawyer could love.  When the enumerated
right is freedom from warrantless searches and seizures the
courts have found it a challenge to refine what that really
means.  In cars it is down to the degree of what might be plain
view, in or out of a bag, and whether or not that bag is properly
sealed.
     Were there error on the side of the protected right then all
but waving the item out the car window would be protected.  Such
is not the form of our legal system.
     Our legal system is on the side of meticulously defining via
court precedent only the exact limits of our protections.  There
is no presumption that the rights exist.  The presumption is that
they were defined in the minds of the framers of the Constitution
and must be refined by the courts.
     This ignores on significant point.  The Framers were of the
mind of those who declared our independence and they held ...

             We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all
Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life,
Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness -- That to secure these
Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
Powers from the Consent of the Governed,

     The concept of government is clearly to protect the rights
of men.  This brings up a larger issue.  That the same government
charged with protecting those rights has assumed an adversarial
role in in limiting those rights by intellectual mayhem.  It has
declined to fulfill its defensive roll in the protection of those
rights.
     I grant executing the law and defending rights at the same
time is a difficult position.  That is why the requirement to err
on the side of the right BY THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH not by the
Judicial Branch is essential.  That is no where in evidence.
     What we have is a government with the largest and most
active branch that is actively hostile to our rights.  The
Executive Branch works to limit those rights contrary to its
constituted obligation.  I see no reason to believe this was the
government that was conceived and constituted for this country.
     There is no reason to permit it to continue.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

       P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33613, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]




---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Ye shall know them by their personal.dct.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    MATT GIWER                             Area: Controv - (107)
To:      ED BORGHI                              10 Oct 94 10:05:00
Subject: KIA's                                  

@0B@NOTE: This message was originally addressed to SCOTT SUMMERS
@0B@      and was forwarded to you by ED BORGHI
@0F@                          --------------------@0B@
SS>  My son is no longer here to "Lead the Way," however I am.  
SS>  Until you, as President and Commander in Chief, are either 
SS>  willing or able to formulate a clear foreign policy, 
SS>  establish specific objectives, and most important, support 
SS>  the men and women in uniform.  I will "Lead the Way" in 
SS>  insuring that you no longer send America's finest to a 
SS>  needless death.  When you are capable of meeting these 
SS>  criteria then I will accept your letter of condolence.
SS> 
SS>  James H Smith Capt/Infantry (Retired)

     The man is a master of understatement.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ FOIA?  We don't need no stinking FOIA!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 270/101 280/1
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941013 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (80)
To:      All                                     9 Oct 94 12:05:10
Subject: Kuwait, 9 Oct 94                       

                     Kuwait, 9 October 1994
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/9>

     Whatever Iraq is up to it is apparently not a lightning
strike.  It has given up a 24 hour window in which it could have
moved into Kuwait with no effective opposition.  Rather it has
taken the time to mass (lack of continuous satellite coverage
still hinders a better description than "massing") what is now
estimated to be 60,000 Republican Guard troops.  They are 12
miles from the Kuwaiti border, 2 miles outside the 10 mile wide
demilitarized zone.  (Those distances are English conversions of
metric, 20 km for the DMZ.  Expect variations in the numbers you
hear.)
     Now the US is moving the carrier George Washington into the
area and, although still a long flight, its planes are in
striking distance of any Iraqi advance.  Had Iraq an air defense
capability there might still be time.
     The US ground response is anemic to say the least.  It is
limited to 2,000 Marines and 4,000 Army, RDF.  They have been
ordered to go; there are no press reports of their having left as
of 11:00 am today.  That still gives Iraq 24 hours to move before
facing serious resistance.
     Our troops will arrive (the army at least) to operate tanks
that are prepositioned outside of Kuwait City.  If Iraq can move
fast enough and secure those tanks they have a leg up on retaking
Kuwait.
     A British frigate are whose relevant armament is surface to
air missiles.  Also several US Hawk surface to air batteries have
been moved from Saudi to Kuwait.  It is not apparent what air
assets Iraq still possesses that warrant these actions.
     Another development is the "spontaneous" arrival of up to
20,000 nomads described by Iraq as people forced out of Kuwait
generations ago.  They too are "massing" outside the DMZ but it
convenient to say they are pitching tent.  What part they will
play in Iraq's plan is not apparent at the moment.  It is worth
remembering Iraq sponsored a peace group inside of its defenses
on the Kuwaiti border last time around.  (CNN name these people
"bedoons."  Expect a re-run of the "expert" coverage of the
region we received last time.)
     On the home front the President is rephrasing the statements
he made to Haiti.  His staff is going on talk shows and giving
interviews repeating the same "sound bites" and assuring the
country and the world of the President's resolve.
     The message is "the US is not preoccupied with Haiti."  I
will note this theme appears to assume Iraq somehow believes
Haiti is a Caribbean superpower.  It would appear the
administration is in fact the only group impressed with its
actions in Haiti.
     The UN is posturing as usual with its expression of "grave
concern" and the like that would impress neither a five year old
nor anyone who observed the UN contribution to the first Gulf
War.
     It is now dark in the Middle East and the IR satellite is
not in place as yet.  Keep in mind the time zone differences when
listening to the news.  Some one on Face the Nation said he just
returned from the Kuwait / Iraq border along with stock footage
of daylight something or other, given the fires in the distance
most likely from the last war.

                            * * * * *

                              *****

     The intention of these posts is remain apolitical.  My
apologies to the political conferences.

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

       P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33613, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ The Constitution is not a technicality.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (81)
To:      Thomas Paine                            9 Oct 94 12:12:10
Subject: Citizen Militias                       

TP> MG>                         Forming Militias
TP> MG>                                by
TP> MG>                            Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/4>

TP>     Had seen a reference or two to your ambitions for 
TP>  publishing a newsletter.  I guess that's the reason for that 
TP>  (c).

     It is the other way around.  Those who bother to say 
anything are 20 to 1 complimenting these articles.  On organizing 
nine months production I found enough material for eight issues.  
A newsletter was obvious.  If that succeeds, after the first year 
there will be enough material for a book.  It all adds adds.  
Were there a market for a simple collection of the articles, 
there is enough material for a book right now.

TP> MG>       Anyone paying attention knows that militias are 
TP> MG>  forming all over the country primarily in response to the 
TP> MG>  excesses of the government particularly at Waco.  A 
TP> MG>  rational federal government would throw a few of their own 
TP> MG>  to the wolves in hopes of stopping the preparations for 
TP> MG>  revolution.  This is not a rational government.

TP>     I appreciate the whole bunch 'o opinion on your part 
TP>  that follows this statement, except for one thing.  You just 
TP>  tried to make me turn my head away from anything like 
TP>  actual context in this post with that "Anyone paying 
TP>  attention" lead-in.  If I don't KNOW about these mystery 
TP>  militias, I must not be paying attention, shame on me.  

     Despite your namesake handle, you are not paying attention.  
I know of four directly just from the BBSs.  I have read 
reference to others.  I would suggest expanding your conference 
reading and look for some of the smaller networks.  Frednet is 
suggested.  You might also try GUNTALK run by the NRA.

TP>  whether such things are right, I find it hard to do so when 
TP>  my first question is whether these militias are nothing 
TP>  more than Imaginary Friends for Revolutionary Wannabees.

     The entire militia effort is premature and most realize 
that.  Organized military effort is the last step in an 
insurgency.  That they are happening at all is the tip of the 
iceberg.  Just after Waco an entire new class of people took an 
interest in collecting virus programs; they said they considered 
them weapons.  You should also follow the interest in PGP and 
other forms of secure communications.  Those who are interested 
are interested for a reason.  There are many more than the usual 
collection of paranoids.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (83)
To:      Jj Judkins                              9 Oct 94 12:33:10
Subject: COUNT YOUR CARS                        

JJ>  MG>  A government panel has convened today, 9/30, to discuss, 
JJ>  MG>  among other things, limiting the number of cars a family 
JJ>  MG>  can own.

JJ>  What's next?  Are they going to limit the number of TV's we 
JJ>  can own, or maybe radios 

     You are giving them ideas.  They are already arguing we 
should pay $5 a gallon for gasoline because Europe does.  England 
at least taxes TV ownership.  I do not know about radio.

so as to cut down on the 
JJ>  information we recieve? maybe it will be to limit how many 
JJ>  times a person can have sex with their lover.

     The only question is if that limit would apply to their 
spouses.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Lt. Frank Drebbin was in Charge of Corpus Crispy OPS.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (85)
To:      Ann Ross                                9 Oct 94 12:35:10
Subject: Espy's resignation                     

AR>  MG>  For those administration score keepers.  Add Mike Espy to 
AR>  MG>  the list.  He will be too busy defending himself from the 
AR>  MG>  charges and can not give his full time Bill Clinton as the 
AR>  MG>  president deserves a full time Secretary of Agriculture.
AR>  MG> 
AR>  MG>  In a similar vein, Paula Jones has said she will drop her 
AR>  MG>  suit if Clinton makes a non-admission apology by noon 
AR>  MG>  Sunday.  Of course if Clinton argues he should be held safe 
AR>  MG>  from responding in court due to the demands on his time 
AR>  MG>  defending himself, the country deserves better than a part 
AR>  MG>  time president.

AR>          The President will give all the notice to trash it 
AR>          deserves - none.

     As you know now, Clinton did respond by saying he was in the 
hotel but did not remember meeting her.  We already have the 
State Trooper confirming they were in the same room at the same 
time.  Good enough for you?  Of course not.  As you hold, Clinton 
has no balls.

AR>  ...  Generalissimo Raoul Cedras thanks Senator Robt.  Dole 
AR>  for his support.

     That was Jimmy Carter for getting him a much better deal 
than Clinton postured on TV.

---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Sometimes the Gov has to kill kids in order to save them.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (86)
To:      Lee Grimsley                            9 Oct 94 12:40:10
Subject: Wacko in Waco                          

LG>              At any rate, the tape was produced by KPOC-TV, 
LG>              Ponca City, Oklahoma.
LG> 
LG>              The lead investigative reporter who put it 
LG>              together was Kristina King.
LG> 
LG>              Hope this helps -- BTW the tape is 
LG>              copyrighted.

     It should be copyrighted and the price is reasonable.  If it 
were not available then copying would be reasonable.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ God Lord!  It's a cookbook! -- FBI manual
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (90)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         9 Oct 94 16:25:10
Subject: LITTLE PEOPLE                          

BS>  And Iraq.  I heard that Sadaam has recently instituted new 
BS>  "Islamic" punishments such as cutting off a hand for theft 
BS>  and for a number of other things.  One possibility might be 
BS>  that the country has some real problems and so he is 
BS>  introducing terrorism to maintain control, but disguising 
BS>  it as "Islamic Law".

     Which mullahs are fronting for him?  Only they can judge.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages.  FBI at Waco.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (91)
To:      George Bethel                           9 Oct 94 16:26:10
Subject: Little people                          

GB>  The french soldiers are under the UN flag and their mission 
GB>  is peacekeeping not fighting.  The fact that they are 
GB>  getting shot at is incidental to the UN policy.

     Do you suppose they have a peace keeping plan involving 
other than fighting?  Harsh language perhaps?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (92)
To:      Chris Boyd                              9 Oct 94 16:35:10
Subject: Omega Point Theory                     

CB>  JH>  It should not take all 600 pages to present enough 
CB>  JH>  highlights of the proof to indicate its basis.  Darned if 
CB>  JH>  I'm going to buy the book on what I've seen so far.

CB>       I wouldn't know how many pages it would take to 
CB>       explain God and the universe, I don't understand the 
CB>       aspects enough to make any estimate.  I'm not sure if 
CB>       600 is worthy enough at all.

     666 pages are exactly the number needed. 

     But do not forget, upon explaining god, whatever it is no 
longer supernatural but amenable to control by the same laws that 
explain it.  Wait until the engineers get their hands on the 
book.  There will be god machines all over the place.  A true 
dial-a-miracle age will come into being.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (93)
To:      Chris Boyd                              9 Oct 94 16:39:10
Subject: Omega Point Theory                     

CB>  CB> What makes you say this?  How is it not a theory?

CB>  AM> Are you claiming that Omni is a legitimate peer review journal
CB>  AM> ???????

CB>       I'm not making any claims about Omni.  You are the one 
CB>       who has a problem with it.

     What makes you think the rest of us did not find the 
suggestion so ludicrous as not to warrant comment?

CB>       Should everything that shows up in this magazine be 
CB>       considered non-credible, just because it's in Omni?

     EVERYTHING in Omni has an uphill fight to establish 
credibility.  You should realize that.

CB>  CB> What observed data *do* we have about God?

CB>  AM>  Absolutely none ; therefore there can be no theory that 
CB>  AM>  invoke the presence or actions of a non-evident agent.  You 
CB>  AM>  have made my point for me.

CB>       So the whole debate on the existence of the origin of 
CB>       the universe and of God should be stopped because of 
CB>       this?

     There is plenty of data on the origin of the universe.  
There is none for the existence of any god.  It is only the 
latter that is a waste of time until there is some evidence to 
start with.  Otherwise you are both making up where to start and 
what direction to proceed.

CB>       No one should come up with any ideas about this 
CB>       because they don't fit the standard of being a theory?  

     It is not a theory unless it explains facts.  As there are 
no facts to explain it can not be a theory.

CB>       Tipler himself said it was an outrageous statement, 
CB>       and that he will have a extremely difficult time 
CB>       proving all the aspects of it.

     Not surprising in the absence of any data.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (94)
To:      Chris Boyd                              9 Oct 94 16:45:10
Subject: Omega Point Theory                     

CB>  CB>  Theory in a sentence: "God, a personal being who created 
CB>  CB>  the universe out of nothing, exists, loves us, and will 
CB>  CB>  one

CB>       This is an extremely compact summary of his theory, 

     As it explains no facts it is not a theory.

CB>       which takes up the whole article.  He even says he 
CB>       usally leaves out the resurrection part, and indicates 
CB>       that God is nothing but space-time curving into 
CB>       infinity.

     The usual BS out of nowhere demonstrating the modern 
theologically correct version of what the christian god is like.  
Do he address why no other god such as Zeus can NOT be described 
the same way?  (REAL FACTS that must be explained, not 
imaginings.)


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 1.  Kill them before they burn you alive.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (95)
To:      All                                    10 Oct 94 03:58:10
Subject: WHO?!?!? resigns?                      

     Just to get ahead of the Clinton lovers here, as they are 
not permitted an independent thought, let me comment upon the 
Cedras resignation expected today.

     General Noriega did the same thing five years before the 
conquest of Panama just to capture him.

     I note Jimmy Carter was involved in Panama and in Haiti.  

     That Cedras does what Noriega did is meaningless.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ The only good criminal is a dead criminal.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (146)
To:      Sol Steinberg                          10 Oct 94 15:08:10
Subject: Wise Decision                          

SS>  If the police beat the crap out of a man in Los Angeles, we 
SS>  get indignant, put them on trial and try to prevent this 
SS>  from happening again.

     They were acquitted of the beating.  They were tried again 
by the Feds because the gov did not like the acquittal.  

SS>  If it happens to a man in Haiti, you think we should ignore 
SS>  it.  Does the concept of responsibility for one's fellow man 
SS>  end at our borders? 

     Yes

SS>   Was the murder of 6 million Jews none of our business?

     Yes


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 3.  Kill 'til no Fed breaths American air.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (147)
To:      Bert Byfield                           10 Oct 94 15:11:10
Subject: Yes I Agree                            

BB>  DV>  it was pathetic how Les Aspin, Clinton's incompetent 
BB>  DV>  Scretary of Defense, flat out refused the request for more 
BB>  DV>  armour and heavy weaponry that the armed forces needed in 
BB>  DV>  order to achieve their objectives in Somalia, objectives 
BB>  DV>  which Clinton supports.  His refusal,

BB>  How would the objective of feeding people be served by the 
BB>  use of heavy weapons and armor?  Maybe we should have nuked 
BB>  them?  That would have been real neat, hunh?    another neanderthal skull-basher nazi...>

     As you were not paying attention...

     Bush declared the mission to be feeding people.

     Clinton lost control of the situation and our military got 
involved in a search and destroy operation against the man now 
the head of Somalia.  It was that CHANGE of mission that Clinton 
refused to support with the equipment needed to accomplish it.  
You will remember the mission failed.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (148)
To:      Ann Ross                               10 Oct 94 15:27:10
Subject: A Polite Society                       

AR>  TB>  The state of Texas investigated and determine those charges 
AR>  TB>  false.  So any other discussion on them is pretty moot, 
AR>  TB>  especially when those charges are used to rationalize an 
AR>  TB>  assault.

AR>          No, they could not find anyone willing to testify 
AR>          under oath at the time of the original 
AR>          investigation months before the whole thing 
AR>          exploded.  BUT, more than one of the group has said 
AR>          for publication that at least 15 of the children 
AR>          were Koresh's.  

     I will call that claim and say 50 were his.

     Are you willing to give a name to this unnamed person?  Was 
it the person who also claims to be a prophet?  The one in the 
middle of a custody fight?  Please name the person.  You can't 
name the person?  Why is that not surprising.

It may get into DNA testing at some 
AR>          point.  And that can be done with his family's DNA.  
AR>          I feel sure the government will do so in the civil 
AR>          case, proving that they had an interest in helping 
AR>          the children.

     They will have to do better than that.  They will have to 
find someone other than Reno who had any claim the children were 
ever in any danger.  You will recall Congress was unable to find 
anyone in the chain of command that had any such belief.  It is 
simply one more bit of evidence Reno is psychotic.

     Opposed to that is the FBI hostage manual saying to wait it 
out unless there is imminent danger to life.  Thus the wrongful 
death suit would have a direct violation of a policy designed to 
minimize loss of life.  The result of violating that policy is 
the substance of a wrongful death suit.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (150)
To:      Jj Judkins                             10 Oct 94 15:41:10
Subject: A Polite Society                       

JJ>  JH> shot is acceptable, but a quarter is too much to pay for
JJ>  JH> decent stopping power?  Although the FBI did for several

JJ>  Jim, not everyone can afford to drop 2-300 on a new weapon.  
JJ>  I am not saying I woldn't preferr a 9MM, I don't know.  I 
JJ>  have only had the chance to fire one, and it was a piece of 
JJ>  Italian crap, some thing that started with a B and wasn't 
JJ>  Beretta, either.

     There are used guns.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (152)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        10 Oct 94 15:44:10
Subject: Absenteeism                            

JB>  I've been REALLY busy with all this world-saving and baby 
JB>  kissing (or, assisting others to do that) here in KC, so 
JB>  I've been away for a few weeks.  If you've sent something 
JB>  to me and I didn't reply, well, unless you saved the 
JB>  message, we'll have to start over from scratch.
JB> 
JB>  I should add that, until Nov.  8, my participation in good 
JB>  ol' CONTROV will be somewhat limited.  So, if weeks go by 
JB>  and you don't get a reply from me, chalk it up to the 
JB>  campaign(s).

     A nice career with 1.5 year vacations.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (156)
To:      Edward Hudock                          10 Oct 94 15:51:10
Subject: Bible                                  

EH>       The confusion of the field is simple to explain.  Look 
EH>  at how Scripture refers to people.  A man who is not 
EH>  DIRECTLY another man's father about can be called his 
EH>  father.  Example...Luke 19:9.  This refers to Zaccheus as a 
EH>  son of Abraham.  Obviously Christ knew and we know that he 
EH>  was not a direct son...but this is how people were referred 
EH>  to in that day.  (In this case it may only refer to the 
EH>  fact that Zaccheus is a follower...see Galations 3:7, and 
EH>  not even in the lineage of Abraham...)  Likewise, Judas' 
EH>  money purchased the field...so therefore "he" bought it.

     Why are you going through all this torture to avoid the 
plain, written word that he purchased the field?  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ All right, Koresh, make my day. -- Reno
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (157)
To:      Mark Simmons                           10 Oct 94 15:53:10
Subject: BIBLE                                  

MS>  MS> MS> Acts 1:18  "Now this man purchased a field with the reward 
MS>  MS> MS> of iniquity;

MS> Did YOU purchase the taco??  NO, your REWARD did.

     "The reward purchased a field with the reward."

     "The reward purchased a field WITH itself."  

     "The reward purchased a field with the man."

     These do not quite follow the wording do they?  

MS>  Such is the English language.  That's as plain as I can 
MS>  make it.  

     Then I would suggest you should learn english much better 
than you presently know it.

Anyone can see it so don't feed me a line about 
MS>  how you can't.  Why don't you just be honest and say you 
MS>  don't want to see it.

     Torture the words until they confess.  If you do not like 
the literal word then make the literal words mean something else.

     Apply the same methods ... The cross was crucified on the 
cross, Christ wasn't.  This is fun.  I wonder what other true 
meanings we can discover if we work at it.     

MS>  BS>  If you're going to resort to this sort of foolishness, find 
MS>  BS>  a fool.

MS> 1 Corinthians 1:18-23

MS>  "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, 
MS>   foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power 
MS>   of God.

     Are you saying you are proud of being a fool?

MS>   For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, 
MS>   and will bring to nothing the understanding of the 
MS>   prudent.

     Rather anti-intellectual isn't it.  It likes its worshippers 
on the stupid side.  That must be what it takes to be unable to 
accept plain english.

MS>   Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the 
MS>   disputer of this world?  Hath not God made foolish the 
MS>   wisdom of this world?

     It made its believers brain dead that is for certain.

---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (158)
To:      Mark Riedel                            10 Oct 94 16:10:10
Subject: COUNT YOUR CARS                        

MR>   Then again, drivers licenses and speeding tickets aren't 
MR>   federal law, with, I think, the sole exception of the CDL 
MR>   -- which would probably be permitted under the commerce 
MR>   clause.

     I see no basis for a CDL being permitted by anything in the 
Constitution.  It is a damn national driver's license in addition 
to a state license.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Lt. Frank Drebbin was in Charge of Corpus Crispy OPS.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (170)
To:      Kelsey Bjarnason                       10 Oct 94 18:14:10
Subject: Gun control                            

KB>   I do, however, think that reducing the probability of John 
KB>   Q.  Moron criminals getting guns essentially by accident 
KB>   will prevent _some_ deaths, and as far as I'm concerned, 
KB>   preventing _any_ deaths via means which do not actually 
KB>   infringe upon others' rights is a good thing.
KB> 
KB>   If what I'm proposing seems too radical, consider - nobody 
KB>   is saying you _can't_ have a gun, they're saying if you 
KB>   want one, you have to demonstrate that you know how to use 
KB>   it; after that, it's all yours.

     You are in fact playing the "reasonable" gun restriction 
game.  You have failed completely to make connection between a 
person knowing how to use a gun (hint:  the bullet comes out of 
the hole) and criminals getting a gun by "accident" (hint:  the 
rest of the world calls it theft.)


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (171)
To:      Matthew Russotto                       10 Oct 94 18:24:10
Subject: Gun control                            

KB>  What would I consider a _basic_ level of firearms 
KB>  knowledge?  Well, first, how to aim it and hit what you're 
KB>  aiming at, preferrably tested under stressful conditions 
KB>  (although I'm not sure this last is practical).

     I am constantly impressed that anti-gunners can find the on 
switch on their computers and still go on about how they want 
criminals well trained in guns.  I judge such people very stupid.

KB>  The difference between this and firearms is pretty obvious: 
KB>  if I don't wear my helmet, I'm only liable to kill myself.  
KB>  If I point a gun at you which I don't know how to operate, 
KB>  it's your life, not mine, I put at risk.

     I am often amazed how feeble minded the anti-gun types truly 
are.  There is a rule you folks never seem to comprehend.  

     "Do not point at what you do not intend to kill."

     Anyone pointing a gun at anyone else is intending to kill.  
In that case it is certainly the most safe to have someone so 
feeble minded, an anti-gun type for example, holding it as they 
have no idea what the trigger is for.  

=====

     Do you think anti-gunners will ever pass the LBJ test of 
being able to walk and chew gum at the same time?

---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 2.  Obey or die.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (172)
To:      Ann Ross                               10 Oct 94 18:41:10
Subject: Haiti                                  

AR>  -=> Quoting Stan Hardegree to Bob Sakowski <=-

AR>  SH>  This is all very nice, but Clinton did not send them.  In 
AR>  SH>  fact, he launched  his invasion while they were still 
AR>  SH>  negotiating.

AR>          That is an absolute lie.  Clinton DID send them.  
AR>          He was in constant communication with Carter and he 
AR>          told him over and over that the MILITARY COMMAND 
AR>          had to move within a certain timeframe AND IT HAD 
AR>          REACHED THE OUTSIDE EDGE OF THAT TIMEFRAME.  
AR>          Clinton was doing what he had to do as told to him 
AR>          by those **in command of the actual moveout**.  
AR>          Remember the problem of having all that equipment 
AR>          and, in particular the helicopters ON DECK, when in 
AR>          bad weather could have been a problem of major 
AR>          proportions.  You never cease to amaze me the 
AR>          extent to which you will go to lie.

     You are supporting Clinton's story.  SH is recounting 
Carter's story.  You are doing as expected.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Get Janet a fiddle.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (173)
To:      Sol Steinberg                          10 Oct 94 18:44:10
Subject: Haiti                                  

SS>  Of course, he sent them.  He was constantly in touch with 
SS>  them.  Despite Carter's naivete, it was Clinton's moving 
SS>  ahead with his invasion plans that convinced the Haitian 
SS>  Military that he meant business and making a deal was their 
SS>  only option.

     Carter said just the opposite, that the launch of the 
invasion almost broke up the negotiations.  But then what would 
Carter know?  He was only there conducting the negotiations.  The 
stories of Clinton's supporters must be right because they were 
not there.



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ W.A.C.O, acronym, Washington Approved Cook Out
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (175)
To:      Scott Summers                          10 Oct 94 19:10:10
Subject: Fires                                  

     Question good sir.

     The anti-smokers are now claiming smoking is the primary of 
either home fires or home fire deaths depending upon who is 
making the claim.  Any truth to it?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ The National Wish List to Santa for Health Care.  HRC
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 377/6 9 15 50 72
SEEN-BY: 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941017 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (393)
To:      Mark Williamson                        11 Oct 94 22:27:10
Subject: A Polite Society                       

MW> MG>       Just why in your mind would investigated and dismissed 
MW> MG>  allegations justify the BATF attack?  Please explain in 
MW> MG>  detail

MW> MG> MW>   I'm not defending the actions of the government in the 
MW> MG> MW>   Waco deal, but don't you think that David Koresh was a 
MW> MG> MW>   little     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              ~~~~~~

MW>  I have said over and over and over that it was *not* 
MW>   justified.  I think you can see plainly in this quoted 
MW>   passage that I said, "I'm not defending the actions of the 
MW>   government."  I don't know why you would want me to 
MW>   justify something I have already said I don't agree with.  

     I read you saying that Koresh was a little bit to blame for 
something which you have yet to justify in any manner. 

MW>   I just think that, as in the case of this Swiss guy who we 
MW>   are hearing about on the news now, if you put that much 
MW>   faith in one person, as did the Branch Davidians, you 
MW>   really don't have a lot of room to complain if it turns 
MW>   out bad.  

     And I hold there is no basis for any comparison with either 
the Swiss incident or Jim Jones.  And you appear to hold there is 
without the least bit of justification for you position.

I am always leery of anyone who has "the 
MW>   answer", whether it be politics, religion, or 
MW>   tiddly-winks.  

     Would you kindly take the time to define exactly what answer 
Koresh claimed to have?  Please be specific as I know the answer.  
After you have done that connect it with his being "a little bit 
responsible."  Take all the screens you need.

When you put your fate in the hands of 
MW>   (an)other person(s), you no longer have any control over 
MW>   your own life.  

     Demonstrate that happened in any sense other than any group 
has a leader.  It comes with human nature particularly when under 
attack.

If, for argument's sake, it was 
MW>   conclusively proven that David Koresh went around shooting 
MW>   his followers in the heads before the raid, which I 
MW>   believe probably happened anyway, but, for argument's 
MW>   sake--then they are no more or no less dead than if they 
MW>   were all shot by the ATF agents.  

     Why would you invent such a stupid example when Koresh was 
one of those shot in the head?  Middle of the forehead at that.

My point is, when they 
MW>   chose to follow this guy wherever he led, they also chose 
MW>   not to have a say in the outcome of their own lives.  

     Just where is it this person lead other than to Mt. Carmel?

I 
MW>   can't imagine being so unsure of my own decision-making 
MW>   ability that I would just leave it all up to, say, David 
MW>   Letterman, or Paul McCartney, and just let them make all 
MW>   my decisions for me.  

     You have left all of your decisions on this matter up to 
proven government and media lies.  I do not see you as any 
different than your examples.

And even if I did, I wouldn't pick a 
MW>   paranoid-schezophrenic, coke-head, heavy-metal guitar 
MW>   player with a messianic complex and a burning desire to 
MW>   sleep with every female in the state of Texas, no matter 
MW>   their age, and take their money, besides.  How about you?

     You are invited to prove any of the above allegations.  
There exists no such evidence.  You are the dupe of the 
government and the media whom you are letting do your thinking 
for you.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (394)
To:      Mark Williamson                        11 Oct 94 22:35:10
Subject: A Polite Society                       

MW> MG>       Provide your evidence with examples of this 
MW> MG>  manipulation.  Failing to do so does indicate you are 
MW> MG>  lying.

MW> MG>       Name his crime.  Cite the specific law he violated.  
MW> MG>  Failure to do so means you are lying.

MW>  No, it doesn't!  It could mean lots of things.  It could 
MW>   mean I am misinformed, or full of crap, or hallucinating, 
MW>   or just plain wrong.  Jeez, dude, lighten up.  I think you 
MW>   need to look up the definition of lying.  

     It means willfully conveying an untruth.  It means conveying 
what you have failed to verify as true before conveying without 
the conditional statement of "I have heard" or some such is a 
lie.  

Just because I 
MW>   have a different opinion about something to you doesn't 
MW>   mean I am deliberately fabricating what I am saying 
MW>   specifically in order to deceive someone.  I am just 
MW>   stating my opinion,  which, last time I checked, was still 
MW>   legal to do in this country.  Man.

     The intent of deception is not required for a lie to be 
stated.  

     As to your opinion, you have stated far more than you could 
possibly have formed as a privately formed opinion in this 
matter.  

     Free speech is still permitted in this country.  A 
responsible person forms an opinion based upon independent review 
of the information rather than parroting lies and thus 
cooperating in the lie.  If you have no interest in being 
responsible then expect to be dealt with accordingly.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 3.  Kill 'til no Fed breaths American air.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (395)
To:      Scott Summers                          11 Oct 94 22:41:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

SS>  MG>      No.  It got packed up in the move.  Care to repost it?

SS> 1-800-932-9888
SS> The Constitution Party


     Got it.

---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (396)
To:      Frank Scheidt                          11 Oct 94 22:42:10
Subject: Atheism                                

FS>  FS>  By definition any event which cannot be explained by
FS>  FS>  physical -- or "natural" -- laws is supernatural ...  the
FS>  FS>  "Big Bang" is one such example ...

FS>  MG>  It is amazing just how common supernatural phenomena are.  
FS>  MG>  Why just five years ago room temperature semi-conductors 
FS>  MG>  were all supernatural miracles.  Hardly more than 200 years 
FS>  MG>  ago the movement of the planets was supernatural.  90 years 
FS>  MG>  ago radium was supernatural.  60 years ago the sun was a 
FS>  MG>  supernatural.

FS>  What gives you *that* idea, Matt?  All of those events can 
FS>  be explained by natural laws ...  Sheeeeeesh ...  don't be so 
FS>  superstitious, Matt.

     In the time periods I have given the phenomena could NOT be 
explained by natural law so at the time they were supernatural.  
Are you trying to play dumb on me?

FS>  MG>  It must be wonderful for you to live in a world of the 
FS>  MG>  supernatural all based upon what you can not understand as 
FS>  MG>  for you even the big bang is supernatural simply because 
FS>  MG>  you are unable to understand it.

FS>  Huh?  There are a *lot* of things which I don't understand.  
FS>  It isn't *that* which makes them supernatural.  Be 
FS>  reasonable ...

     You said, "can not be explained by natural law."  As 
knowledge of natural law is always increasing the bounds of what 
you view as supernatural are always receding.  If it depended 
upon your ability to understand, as you insist it does with the 
Big Bang, then much that is explained by natural law remains 
supernatural.  

     That is the consequence of your position.

FS>  MG>  It is also interesting that you would hold to a belief the 
FS>  MG>  supernatural being what you can not understand when you can 
FS>  MG>  see, the supernatural becoming natural every day by 
FS>  MG>  learning and research.

FS>  What you say is utterly impossible.  It's like saying black 
FS>  becomes white by learning and research.  Black is black.  
FS>  White is white.  Natural is natural.  Supernatural is 
FS>  supernatural.

     Such a trivial example.  Black does become white when all 
brighter light sources are excluded.  That is the old trick of 
looking very closely at black velvet while lighting only the part 
looked at.  It is very white.  It sort of gets the idea across to 
gradeschoolers.

     You have stated the ability to explain separates the two 
whereas the ability to explain constantly increases.  Thus in 
time the supernatural must decrease.

FS>  MG>  I do not see how you can reconcile any idea of supernatural 
FS>  MG>  when what is supernatural can be converted to natural by 
FS>  MG>  scientists.  Your god doesn't have much going for it, does 
FS>  MG>  it?

FS>  Matt, I cannot believe that you're serious.  I just *can't* 
FS>  believe it.  This is a ploy to start a controversy, right?

     I am only dealing with your own statement.  You started any 
controversy, not me.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (398)
To:      All                                    11 Oct 94 23:32:10
Subject: Abortion positions                     

     "Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its 
people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.  
This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is 
abortion."
                         -- Mother Teresa, Feb 3, 1994

     "We would like for the right-to-life, anti-choice groups to 
really get over their love affair with the fetus."
                         -- Joycelyn Elders, Jan 18, 1992

     The choice is clear.  Choose nerf brain.  And, she has the 
more amusing pronunciation


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Hillary, The World's Greatest Authority on health care.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (425)
To:      Ed Borghi                              12 Oct 94 19:53:10
Subject: A Polite Society                       

EB> ->       You are simply demonstrating the power of the big lie 
EB> ->  technique on the weak minded.  Very much as it worked on 
EB> ->  Annimal.

EB>  Let us not forget Randy Weaver and his family.  The Waco 
EB>  incident happened just 6 months after the Weaver affair.  
EB>  Once again innocent people died at the hands of the BATF 
EB>  and FBI and once again not one citizen was convicted of 
EB>  anything and not one Federal Agent was disiplined!

     I am not certain where I was at the time of Weaver but I 
remember nothing about it in real time for certain.  I might have 
heard about it just as it was ending.  That is quite different 
from Waco in that the gov had weeks in the spotlight to sucker in 
the gullible and weak minded.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 3.  Kill 'til no Fed breaths American air.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (426)
To:      Ed Borghi                              12 Oct 94 19:56:10
Subject: ATHEISM                                

EB> ->       If I may?  That for which there is no evidence of 
EB> ->  existence can be anything it wants.  Hypothesizing its 
EB> ->  nature to be wildly esoteric does nothing to support the 
EB> ->  essential, primary, sine qua non of the subject, existence 
EB> ->  in the first place.

EB>  Scarey isn't it? A force may exist that is so powerful that 
EB>  man may not be able to overcome it's will.

     There may be such a frog also but then zero evidence of 
existence of the frog also.

EB>  I always wondered why it is so hard for some people to 
EB>  accept that there just may be something or someone out 
EB>  there that fits the above description.

     What there may be is pure speculation.  Anyone can accept 
the possibility but without evidence of existence it is worthless 
speculation.

EB>  Many people have no problem believing that some day we will 
EB>  be able to control space and time and travel within it, 

     As we already travel through space I do not see that as much 
of a leap.  As we already travel one way through time and have a 
theoretical way to travel backward in time it is hardly 
speculation to suggest backward travel may one day be reduced to 
engineering practice.

EB>  that we will be able to control not only highly reactive 
EB>  atoms but all atomic structure, 

     There is not much left to control these days.  Most 
everything can be done, the problem is only the engineering.

that we will be able to 
EB>  cure all disease and actually create new life.  

     All we need is to get a handle on viral diseases; we have 
already created life.

How could 
EB>  one say that we are beyond a doubt the first to have done 
EB>  so when that time comes, if ever? 

     Who cares?  We have only been at real science to any extent 
for barely 400 years and we have most of the big problems 
answered.  400 more years should icing the cake.  As it will take 
6000 years to double recorded human history it is trivial to 
expect miracles, not only expect them but to schedule them, like 
the Manhattan Project.

The size and age (as we 
EB>  calculate) of the universe and the number of galaxies and 
EB>  stars in those galaxies should be enough to show that we 
EB>  may not be alone and that all that we are doing now and 
EB>  will do in the future may have already been done by others.  

     That does bring up the "where are they?" question.  Why no 
signs of their existence?  It is a disturbing question if one 
seriously considers it.  Either the others are hiding their 
existence from us, there are ultimate limits to control of the 
universe, or we are alone.  It is quite a strange universe we 
live in.

EB>  The universe is bilions of years old.  Add 1 million years 
EB>  to our cycle of achievment and where do you think we would 
EB>  be now.  The device that you are reading this on is only 50 
EB>  or so years old.  The device I typed this on has only 
EB>  existed in it's present form for about 14 years and the 
EB>  granddaddy of all of them for less than 50 years.  All that 
EB>  we now take for granted and that we depend on so much in 
EB>  our daily lives has come to pass in the last 100 years.
EB> 
EB>  Add that 1 million years and imagine where we could be now.  

     That many years is hardly necessary to appear as gods.  
Consider the gun among primitives without the trappings of 
fallability Hollywood puts on it.  More simply, go back to Rome 
with a supply of swords made of modern steel and they could be 
sold for enough to give one a life of luxury.

EB>  With technological advance slowed to 10% of its present 
EB>  rate I really think we could create anything we wanted to 
EB>  in 1 million years.  All that we now imagine and see as 
EB>  science fiction (light speed, time travel etc.) we will 
EB>  probably be able to do.  Look back just 70 or 80 years.  The 
EB>  science fiction of that time was submarines and rocket 
EB>  ships.
EB> 
EB>  How big is the universe really? I guess that depends on how 
EB>  big we realy are.  Could an electron in the center of a 486 
EB>  CPU see the outer edges? Would it even know that other 
EB>  forces (chipsets etc.) actually controlled it's universe 
EB>  before it completed it's journey and went to ground?
EB> 
EB>  The mere lack evidence of existence may not be enough to 
EB>  disprove existence.

     There is no effort to prove existence.  The requirement is 
to demonstrate some form of existence in the first place else, as 
with ETIs, it is all amusing speculation and no more.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ All right, Koresh, make my day. -- Reno
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (431)
To:      All                                    12 Oct 94 21:20:10
Subject: Crime Law                              

RH> ->    2/3rd to propose, 3/4 to ratify.

RH>         My mistake.

     I posted not so much to point out a mistake as to have an 
opportunity to make this follow up point. 

     Getting a 2/3rds majority in Congress or from the states for 
a Concon is not a trivial matter.  In Congress it takes a lot of 
organization to get 2/3rds in one vote.  With the states for the 
Concon states have voted for and withdrawn their approval (open 
to SC determination at this point) over years.  

     That the states might give 3/4 approval IF they were all 
required to vote on one day is negligable and we might not have 
even the Bill of Rights were that a requirement.  That supporters 
in a state can orchestrate a positive vote for an amendment as is 
done in Congress in proposing an amendment over a period of 
years, if not forever depending upon the conditions on the 
approval process or the lack of same, is perhaps the only reason 
we have amendments to our Constitution.

     This is one of the reasons why social engineering by 
"regulation" rather than prohibition is so popular.  Consider how 
easy it was to make the case for universal franchise for 18 years 
olds based upon military service.  Consider how impossible it 
would have been to prohibit them from drinking at 18 given the 
same argument of military service.

     As it stands amending the Constitution is as much a 
political art form as passing a law such as the Crime Bill.  It 
has little to do with the will of the people.  And that is by 
design, not by chance.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Hillary is being sent back to the Mother Ship.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (446)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           12 Oct 94 22:31:10
Subject: Lady soldiers in haiti                 

KP> ->  Women are authorized to fly combat missions in the air 
KP> ->  force.  There are no womem serving in the combat arms mos's, 
KP> ->  such as infantry, tankers, etc.

KP>          Women have been ORDERED to be allowed to fly Combat 
KP>  for the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps despite NOT 
KP>  making the qualifications applied to MALE pilots! While a 
KP>  MALE must demonstrate the ability to perform in a 10 g 
KP>  environment, women only have to perform in a 3 g 
KP>  environment! Gonna make dogfights REAL interising! The 
KP>  FIRST combat we send the airial pussy-posse out on is gonna 
KP>  END all the bitching and whining we have been subjected to 
KP>  for the past 15 years.  Gonna be LOTS of dead broads! You 
KP>  see, the enemy pilots are first gonna blow the bitches out 
KP>  of the sky, and then laugh their asses off at the Court 
KP>  Order the broads try to wave in their face saying they can 
KP>  fly at only 40% of their capability to make it EQUAL! Women 
KP>  have the terminal STUPIDS! Why the hell do we let them 
KP>  vote? The duumb bitches INSIST on going into combat only 
KP>  40% prepared! Do you get more stupid than that?
     
     By the time the pussy-posse sees combat Pattycake will be 
retired and the military will be condemned for inadequate 
training of women.  Under the "rule" of not engaging in politics, 
no one will speak out as to what really caused the problem.  

     But then, it is the way of feminists to get women killed for 
lack of ability.  Pointing that out is the end of a career for 
anyone in the military.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Get Janet a fiddle.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (447)
To:      Mark Simmons                           12 Oct 94 22:35:10
Subject: literal Bible                          

MS>  LF>  Here's a couple of questions for all of the literalist 
MS>  LF>  fundies and creationists out there.  :)

MS>  First, I'm not a scientific creationist.  

     You could not be.  There are none.



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941021 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (105)
To:      Jj Judkins                             17 Oct 94 22:42:10
Subject: Civilians And Assaul                   

On 10/14/94 JJ JUDKINS to BERT BYFIELD on Civilians And Assaul     

JJ>  BB>  obstacle to buying the coolest handguns is your ego.  Lots 
JJ>  BB>  of people just don't have the courage to buy one of those 
JJ>  BB>  ultra-concealable, small caliber handguns sometimes called 
JJ>  BB>  "Saturday Night Specials."

JJ>  Bert , I USE a .22 LR.  Thanks for posting this article 
JJ>  that makes my point.  Of course mine isn't a Saturday night 
JJ>  Special.

     Why don't you two stop up and assault me some time.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Sometimes the Gov has to kill kids in order to save them.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (106)
To:      Sol Steinberg                          17 Oct 94 22:45:10
Subject: Clinton stands                         

SS> CB>      Gun control?  Banning a few assault weapons is solving 
SS> CB>      the gun control issue?  Does it even phase the gun 
SS> CB>      control issue? Is that a real stand, or just a 
SS> CB>      poll-minded conclusion?

SS>  I disagree with the Brady waiting period and I'm not sure 
SS>  about banning "assault" weapons, but the topic is Clinton 
SS>  stands.  The person who initiated this subject said that 
SS>  Clinton didn't take any.  That is a lie.

     He does takes stands, many of them.  That is why folks like 
you can cite one of them and imply he does not change.

SS> CB>      Haiti?  Rebuilding their country when we need to 
SS> CB>      rebuild ours first?

SS>  People were being murdered in Haiti and we were in a 
SS>  position to stop it, or at least Clinton and I both think 
SS>  that.  As a Jew who said, "Never again," 

     It was post surrender Germans who painted Nie Wieder every 
place they could as a threat that if WW I type reparations were 
imposed again they would rise again.  It had NOTHING to do with 
Jews, period.

I applaud Clinton's 
SS>  actions in Haiti and point out that we did not have to go 
SS>  to war - as we did in Grenada, Panama, and Desert Storm.

     And you approve of the increase in violence and deaths that 
the Clinton invasion caused?  Why?

SS> CB>      Stopping Haitian immigrants when Mexican immigrants are 
SS> CB>      walking in daily, in extremely larger numbers?  Is he 
SS> CB>      taking a real stand, or his he really just trying to 
SS> CB>      prove himself in front of America and the world?

SS>  Neither Bush nor Reagan (nor any other president) has been 
SS>  effective in blocking illegal immigration.

     Only because we are humanitarian enough not to shoot them at 
the border.  A few bodies would it down overnight.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (117)
To:      William Childress                      18 Oct 94 00:35:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ar 1/                   

WC>          Atheists habitually ignore evidence which points 
WC>  toward the existence of God.  This, of course, has nothing 
WC>  to do with the nature or quality of the evidence.  Also, 
WC>  unfortunately, there are many modern scientists who are 
WC>  atheists.  Therefore, I regard your observation as being 
WC>  off the mark.

     You make a strange post, claiming there is evidence when 
there is no evidence.  I would have thought Christians would 
refrain from lying but they and particularly you continue to do 
so.

WC> KB>  Actually, you've got it backwards again.  Science deals 
WC> KB>  with data first, then theories which attempt to explain the 
WC> KB>  data.  So far, the total count of observed deities - or 
WC> KB>  actions of deities - is zero.  There is no data, therefore 
WC> KB>  there is nothing upon which to base a theory.

WC>          No, the people who gather scientific data and 
WC>  develop scientific theories are hardly children.  Actually, 
WC>  they're adults with a well defined core of beliefs.

     That statement makes you a liar.

WC>          As for JESUS, HIS activities were observed and 
WC>  recorded.  

     As does this statement make you a liar.  You are an active 
sinner with no right to consider yourself a Christian.

Why do you actively neglect the evidence 
WC>  contained within the Scriptures? 

     There is no evidence in the scriptures, liar.

Also, why do you blindly 
WC>  ignore the secular sources which offer substantiation?

     There are none, liar.

WC>          Natural selection cannot explain how inorganic 
WC>  matter developed into life.   

     Again, you are a liar to suggest evolution deals with the 
origins of life.

Additionally, scientific 
WC>  theories related to the origin of life are not easier to 
WC>  swallow than the biblical model.  

     To suggest there is a biblical model is also a lie, liar.

Faith is clearly a factor 
WC>  no matter which way you turn.

     Faith in the stories of ignorant, goat-herding tribesmen 
well describes you lying Christians.

WC>  You assume too much!  Many people have been exposed to the 
WC>  theories you embrace and reject them.

     As in the sworn liars such as Gish drawing a paycheck from 
the ICR.  Learn to lie better and you can get paid for it also.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ First they came for Weaver and I did not speak.  Then they
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941023 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (91)
To:      Jj Judkins                             18 Oct 94 12:01:10
Subject: A Polite Society                       

JJ>  MG> There are used guns.

JJ>  Matt, Don't know about the price of firearms in Florida, 
JJ>  but even used weapons aren't exactly cheap in Oklahoma..

     No more expensive than a decent evening out for two.  Less 
than two tickets to a Springsteen "concert."  (One of those five 
shot .22 LR derringers is on the order of one ticket.)  Early 
this year I saw a trade go down on a Dan Wesson .38 and 200MB 
drive.  

     What do you consider expensive?  What is your baseline 
comparison?  There should be no problem getting a gun for the 
equivalent 2-4 months of cable or for women 2-4 new outfits.  
Save $25 a month for a year and you can have most any handgun you 
want if you don't mind used.  

     Have you tried the gun shows or are you sticking with the 
shops?  Even the shops can have some bargains around here.  All 
the established gunshops are into the buy/sell/trade mode and the 
new ones get established with deep discounts as in $450 vice $750 
as I picked up earlier this year.  

     I am more familiar with Virginia and Potomac Arms / Hunter's 
Haven in Alexandria always had a good selection.  .32 and .38 at 
good prices were always available with .45 and 9mm most of the 
time.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Bureau of Firearms, Alcohol, Religion and Tobacco
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (92)
To:      Frank Scheidt                          18 Oct 94 12:27:10
Subject: Atheism                                

FS>  FS>  MG>  It is amazing just how common supernatural phenomena are.
FS>  FS>  MG>  Why just five years ago room temperature semi-conductors
FS>  FS>  MG>  were all supernatural miracles.  Hardly more than 200 years
FS>  FS>  MG>  ago the movement of the planets was supernatural.  90 years
FS>  FS>  MG>  ago radium was supernatural.  60 years ago the sun was a
FS>  FS>  MG>  supernatural.

FS>  FS>  What gives you *that* idea, Matt?  All of those events can
FS>  FS>  be explained by natural laws ...  Sheeeeeesh ...  don't be so
FS>  FS>  superstitious, Matt.

FS>  MG> In the time periods I have given the phenomena could NOT be
FS>  MG> explained by natural law so at the time they were supernatural.
FS>  MG> Are you trying to play dumb on me?

FS>  But they *could* have.  You see, Matt, they had exactly the 
FS>  same natural physical laws then that we have today.  Do you 
FS>  suggest that, for example, the planets didn't follow 
FS>  natural laws WHICH EXISTED SAY 200 YEARS AGO.  I am certain 
FS>  that you are not.

     How do you predict the future and know what "can be 
explained" in the future?  400 years ago there was no concept 
that there were physical laws.  What are you predicting will 
exist in 400 years?  And how do you know?  Please be specific.  

     How do you know your present supernatural can not be 
explained by natural law or whatever may exist in a few hundred 
years?  

     You are presuming precisely what we understand today is all 
there will ever be and more erroneously assuming what we have 
today was known in the past.  

FS>  FS>  Huh?  There are a *lot* of things which I don't understand.
FS>  FS>  It isn't *that* which makes them supernatural.  Be
FS>  FS>  reasonable ...

FS>  MG> You said, "can not be explained by natural law."

FS>  And it *can't* ...  can it?  If so, kindly explain it.  
FS>  (BTW, Matt, that's simply a rhetorical statement.  I don't 
FS>  really expect you to explain the Big Bang.)

     Name what cannot be explained by natural law now or forever 
in the future.  (BTW:  I did explain the Big Bang.  You are 
simply unprepared to understand the explanation.  I could suggest 
a course of study if you would like to understand the 
explanation.)

FS>  MG>  knowledge of natural law is always increasing the bounds of 
FS>  MG>  what you view as supernatural are always receding.  If it 
FS>  MG>  depended upon your ability to understand, as you insist it 
FS>  MG>  does with the Big Bang, then much that is explained by 
FS>  MG>  natural law remains supernatural.

FS>  But I *don't* claim that natural law or the supernatural 
FS>  depends upon my ability to understand.  There are *many* 
FS>  things which I don't understand yet I'm certain that they 
FS>  all comply with natural laws.

     Explain how you know the limitations on what can for all 
future time be explained by natural law when scientists do not.

FS>  MG> That is the consequence of your position.

FS>  Correction:  That is the consequence of your *distortion* 
FS>  of my position.

     Your presumption that you can speak of what you do not know.

FS>  FS>  What you say is utterly impossible.  It's like saying black
FS>  FS>  becomes white by learning and research.  Black is black.
FS>  FS>  White is white.  Natural is natural.  Supernatural is
FS>  FS>  supernatural.

FS>  MG> Such a trivial example.  Black does become white when all
FS>  MG> brighter light sources are excluded.  That is the old trick of
FS>  MG> looking very closely at black velvet while lighting only the part
FS>  MG> looked at.  It is very white.  It sort of gets the idea across to
FS>  MG> gradeschoolers.

FS> I could have chosen a better example ...

     Please do.

FS>  MG>  You have stated the ability to explain separates the two 
FS>  MG>  whereas the ability to explain constantly increases.  Thus 
FS>  MG>  in time the supernatural must decrease.

FS>  That's a example of *faith* in action, isn't it, Matt?  You 
FS>  assume that what has happened in the past will happen in 
FS>  the future, isn't that true? 

     And upon what else can you base an estimate of the future?  
I would certainly hold that assumption is much better than yours; 
yours being that you have the infused knowledge to know the 
limits of natural law such that you can propound there can always 
be things that must be supernatural.

Extrapolation of a series of 
FS>  events can be dangerous and misleading.  It's true, we *do* 
FS>  keep learning new things, but there's no reason to believe 
FS>  (or to *disbelieve* for that matter) that we'll understand 
FS>  the supernatural one day.  

     Your examples of the supernatural please.

If you dispute that, then point 
FS>  out even *one* supernatural event in the past which can be 
FS>  explained today.

     I know of no supernatural events ever having occurred.  
Perhaps you could list a few for me.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (93)
To:      William Childress                      18 Oct 94 12:46:10
Subject: ATHEISM                                

WC> MG>      What there may be is pure speculation.  Anyone can 
WC> MG> accept the possibility but without evidence of existence it 
WC> MG> is worthless speculation.

WC>          Blind men cannot see the LIGHT, but that doesn't 
WC>  preclude its existence.   LIGHT exists whether or not blind 
WC>  men are equipped to view it.  However, it's tragic to 
WC>  discover that many are born with the right equipment and 
WC>  willfully choose not to use it.

     Nor does it preclude the existence of a magic, abyssinian 
vole either.  It simply says there is no evidence for it.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (94)
To:      William Childress                      18 Oct 94 12:47:10
Subject: Bible                                  

WC> MG>      Why are you going through all this torture to avoid the 
WC> MG> plain, written word that he purchased the field?

WC>          Why do you ignore his reasoning when secularists 
WC>  have applauded similar instances?  Are you stating that 
WC>  people have never been credited with purchases brought 
WC>  about through the participation of another?

     When there are NO OTHERS mentioned it is difficult to see 
why others invent their existence.  Perhaps you can explain why 
they have to be invented?

     BTW:  The priests would have been unclean to handle blood 
money, something they would have avoided.  Who are you going to 
invent now?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (95)
To:      Jj Judkins                             18 Oct 94 12:51:10
Subject: COUNT YOUR CARS                        

JJ>  MG>  They are already arguing we should pay $5 a gallon for 
JJ>  MG>  gasoline because Europe does.

JJ>  It figures..  What do they think, it is a status symbol to 
JJ>  pay higher prices?
JJ> 
JJ>  I thought the reason they paid higher prices was because 
JJ>  they had to import almost all of the oil..

     I had always thought the reason was that when cars were new 
the nobility was still in control of Europe and it was a way to 
limit cars to the upper class.  Someone came back with a tortured 
explanation that was different but it was short on the dates to 
support the explanation.  At the time cars were getting started 
up to say the 1950s Europe had all the oil it needed, the Ploesti 
oil fields being a prize of WW II.

     In addition the ridiculous taxes are only on gasoline not on 
all oil products.  Of course once the taxes are entrenched and 
being used to pay for something it is trivial to tell the 
electorate it will lose its gold watch (schools, police 
protection, whatever it holds important) if those taxes are 
reduced.

JJ>  I can see no logical reason for that type of gas increase, 
JJ>  or is this Waffles new Idea to pay for the Health care 
JJ>  plan?

     This is always proposed as a general revenue raising but is 
"justified" by dependence upon foreign oil.  The lie of that 
justification is that it would apply to both domestic and foreign 
oil.  The only way to make it work to decrease dependence would 
be to apply it to foreign oil only.  

JJ>  MG> England at least taxes TV ownership.  I do not know about
JJ>  MG> radio.

JJ>  Well, live and learn.  Didn't know that.  Doesn't suprise 
JJ>  me though.  They have to have revenue somewhere to pay for 
JJ>  the Royal Family's indescretions..  :)

     The theory is it pays for the documentaries on cheese 
production made by the BBC.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ W.A.C.O, acronym, Washington Approved Cook Out
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (96)
To:      Edward Hudock                          18 Oct 94 23:47:10
Subject: BIBLE LIES                             

EH> BS>Nonsense

EH> BS> Such twisting and wriggling makes a laughing stock of the 
EH> BS> fundie clai to simple literal interpretation.

EH>       Literal interpretation must occur after a study of the 
EH>  Word and while comparing Scripture with Scripture.  Taking 
EH>  one portion of Scripture out of context is why so many 
EH>  cults and fanatics are out there...

     I see.  Literal can only happen after you have determined 
which literal words conflict with what you have decided it has to 
mean to conform with what it does not say.

     That is very clear and simply stated.  Thank you.

     To state it more simply, you do not give a damn what it 
really says only what you want it to mean.  

EH>  BTW:  My father-in-law bought my wife and I a car MONTHS 
EH>        after he died.  Can YOU figure out how?

     Sounds like fun.  What is the answer?  Please answer in 
terms that are legally valid either today or in Jerusalem in 30 
AD.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Today Waco.  Gestern USA.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (97)
To:      Ann Ross                               19 Oct 94 01:41:10
Subject: 1/2Mt.carmel                           

AR>          Why do you believe unproven allegations about a 
AR>          "list."  I could just as easily take a small area 
AR>          like Arlington, Texas, and draw up a list of people 
AR>          who have been killed who worked for George W.  Bush.  

     So do it but remember "worked for" and NOT campaigned for.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ We are here to help you, Jude, I mean Mr. Koresh.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (98)
To:      Jim Higgins                            19 Oct 94 01:42:10
Subject: 1Parsec/3.26 Light Years               

JH>  LT>  How many weeks are there in a light year?

JH>  BD> 52.17857

JH>  Wrong!  A light year is a measure of distance not a measure 
JH>  of time.

     How long is a nanosecond?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 1.  Kill them before they burn you alive.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (99)
To:      Ann Ross                               19 Oct 94 01:43:10
Subject: 3/3:Mt.Carmel                          

AR>  MG> You invent danger where there was no danger only to justify
AR>  MG> condemning Koresh in your rather sick fantasy life.

AR>  JJ>  The only fantasy I had is that you were an intelligent 
AR>  JJ>  human being, capable of carrying on a decent conversation.  
AR>  JJ>  I was wrong.  You can't obviously.

AR>          Now you understand Matty.  He seems to write for 
AR>          the radical right wingers "news" letters and 
AR>          actively advocates insurrection in this country.  

     But keep in mind you advocate living on your knees only 
because that is the only way you have gotten ahead in life.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (100)
To:      All                                    19 Oct 94 02:14:10
Subject: MORE BATF                              

 █▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█  Original From: JIM PADGETT
 █ STOLEN █             To: MATT GIWER
 █  STUFF █    Date/Number: 10/16/94 - 0003909
 █▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█             On: GUNTALK - 0012 - GENPOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


MG>     No, it is not just the BATF, it is not just the Treasury it
MG>is the entire damned government without exception until this
MG>ceases to occur.

      I won't argue that the "entire damned government" isn't over the line,
      but the BATF is out of control, and is wantonly reckless.  Recently
      in St. Louis a BATF raid at 3:30am on a residence left a woman wounded.
      It seems that when confronted in the hallway by the near NAKED woman,
      who did have a gun, the two agents, who were in full armour and behind
      bullet proof shields, had no alternative? but to shoot her!  WHAT BS!
      To top it all off, the search, which included two other locations
      did not produce any contraband or the named suspect.  Their only
      statement to the media was "He MUST have been tipped off".

      Sound familiar?

      I suggest that every time you run across one of BATF's reckless
      blunders, and there are plenty, write your congressmen and include a
      copy of the press coverage.  They can and should be shutdown.

---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■                Barney Must Die!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (101)
To:      All                                    19 Oct 94 02:15:10
Subject: MORE BATF                              

JP> MG>      No, it is not just the BATF, it is not just the 
JP> MG> Treasury it is the entire damned government without 
JP> MG> exception until this ceases to occur.

JP>        I won't argue that the "entire damned government" 
JP>        isn't over the line, but the BATF is out of control, 
JP>        and is wantonly reckless.  Recently in St.  Louis a 
JP>        BATF raid at 3:30am on a residence left a woman 
JP>        wounded.  It seems that when confronted in the hallway 
JP>        by the near NAKED woman, who did have a gun, the two 
JP>        agents, who were in full armour and behind bullet 
JP>        proof shields, had no alternative? but to shoot her!  
JP>        WHAT BS! To top it all off, the search, which 
JP>        included two other locations did not produce any 
JP>        contraband or the named suspect.  Their only 
JP>        statement to the media was "He MUST have been tipped 
JP>        off".
JP> 
JP>        Sound familiar?

     Were I in a position to make a declaration I would certainly 
proclaim the BATF enemies of the entire US and authorize everyone 
to shoot first.  After all, they are only revenooers.

     Until this wanton slaughter stops, not excuses are 
acceptable.

     In the early 70s Blacks got fed up with cops showing up a 
trouble calls and killing everyone in sight.  They started 
forming bands, all armed, and making trouble calls.  They shot 
every cop that showed up.  After a year of this the cops called a 
truce.  

     There are lessons to be learned from history.  That is one 
of them.

JP>        I suggest that every time you run across one of 
JP>        BATF's reckless blunders, and there are plenty, write 
JP>        your congressmen and include a copy of the press 
JP>        coverage.  They can and should be shutdown.

     I point out that Congress recommended they be disbanded and 
Reagan said it could not be done.

     Therefore we KNOW without question that petition for redress 
of grievance is worthless in this case.  Therefore we need to 
take the necessary actions our government have found itself 
incapable of doing.  We know from history one method that works.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (102)
To:      All                                    19 Oct 94 02:59:10
Subject: IMPORT BAN??                           

 █▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█  Original From: JEFFREY ADKINS
 █ STOLEN █             To: ALL
 █  STUFF █    Date/Number: 10/17/94 - 0001927
 █▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█             On: GUNTALK - 0002 - MEMBER
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Has anyone else heard about this, and if so, *exactly* what's going on
here:

Issue 1426-Oct 14:  "As Gun Week goes to press, representatives of
firearm importers are meeting to decide what action to take in the face
of a virtual halt in all firearms imports into the US that already has
been in place for several months.  Officials of the BATF have admitted
to importers that the action was based not on any law but on orders
straight from the White ehouse.  Importers had hoped to simply work
quietly with the BATF to solve the problem, but now it appears they
will be forced to go public.  Several prominent members of Congress
have agreed to spearhead their effort."
 
... Married.  To the Second Amendment.
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
--- MMGR v3.52
 ■ GUN-TALK: NRA MEMBERS ONLY CONFERENCE
                                                                               
                         
---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Guns cause crime and cars cause vehicular homicide.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (103)
To:      All                                    19 Oct 94 03:01:10
Subject: IMPORT BAN??                           

JA>  Has anyone else heard about this, and if so, *exactly* 
JA>  what's going on here:
JA> 
JA>  Issue 1426-Oct 14:  "As Gun Week goes to press, 
JA>  representatives of firearm importers are meeting to decide 
JA>  what action to take in the face of a virtual halt in all 
JA>  firearms imports into the US that already has been in place 
JA>  for several months.  Officials of the BATF have admitted to 
JA>  importers that the action was based not on any law but on 
JA>  orders straight from the White ehouse.  Importers had hoped 
JA>  to simply work quietly with the BATF to solve the problem, 
JA>  but now it appears they will be forced to go public.  
JA>  Several prominent members of Congress have agreed to 
JA>  spearhead their effort."

     Does anyone have to ask what is going on here?  It is 
exactly what I have been saying for years.  

     This is just another step toward gun confiscation.  If 
anyone doubted it was coming this direct order from the White 
House should remove all doubt.

     This government is intent upon dictatorial control of the 
United States and before that happens it knows it must disarm the 
citizens.

     This ban means all importation is federal felony smuggling 
from now on.

     What to hear the media if the WH is pushed far enough to 
have to comment publically?

=====

     As the Crime bill "cut off" the source of guns to criminals 
Billie Jerk was "forced" to respond to the smuggling of arms to 
baby killing gun users.  He will display dozens of guns his order 
prevented from being smuggled into the country.  

     The media will publically masturbate over his heroic stance 
in the face of the criminal gun lobby.

     The NRA will respond with statistics as usual.

=====

     Like it or not, if true, this is Concord.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Reinventing government does not mean pulling it out of a hat
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (104)
To:      All                                    19 Oct 94 03:34:10
Subject: WHO WAS TENCH COXE???                  

 █▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀█  Original From: WESLEY JONES
 █ STOLEN █             To: RICH ZUCHOWSKI
 █  STUFF █    Date/Number: 10/13/94 - 0003956
 █▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄█             On: GUNTALK - 0007 - LAW
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

RZSG>   "As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before t
RZSG>   may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be
RZSG>   occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their powe
RZSG>   the injury of fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next
RZSG>   article in their right to keep and bear private arms."
RZ
RZI would be willing to donate some of my hard earned money towards having
RZa monument erected on the site of the burned out Branch Davidians
RZcompound with these words engraved on it.

Great idea Rich, the words almost seem to have been penned
with Waco in mind.

I'll donate if someone would get it together.

Best,  wes
---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ If you wish peace, prepare for war.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (106)
To:      Linda Terrell                          19 Oct 94 19:16:10
Subject: WOMEN'S RIGHTS                         

LT> MG>       Consider Mother Teresa.  If you want to talk about 
LT> MG>  really oppressed, shoved into the background, lack of 
LT> MG>  recognition how much have you ever heard about Father 
LT> MG>  Teresa?  He is obviously the power behind the throne.

LT>    He's the Pope

     Father Tereski?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 3.  Kill 'til no Fed breaths American air.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (107)
To:      Jim Higgins                            19 Oct 94 21:26:10
Subject: Armed March                            

JH>  But so willing to allow candidates like Stern to run under 
JH>  their banner that they are likely to remain that way.  Their 
JH>  credibility is not even decently established and anything 
JH>  which tends to establish it better has an unfortunate 
JH>  tendency to be cancelled by something like Stern...  or 
JH>  worse.

     Do you mean like Reagan hurt the Republicans?  What am I 
missing?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (108)
To:      Charles Hill                           19 Oct 94 21:29:10
Subject: Behind Leviticus                       

CH>  BS>  Are you saying the infamous Leviticus passage is not true? 
CH>  BS>  Are you saying it was "written" referring to something that 
CH>  BS>  didn't exist?

CH>  You've apparently concluded that Mr Scheidt is one of those 
CH>  fundamentalist types who believes that every word in 
CH>  Scripture is literally true.  He is not, and has said so 
CH>  more than once.

     What one says and how one behaves are quite different 
things.  Those who deny being fundies generally do so so that 
they may weasel out of having to defend every word while choosing 
the specific literal words they want.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (109)
To:      All                                    19 Oct 94 21:33:10
Subject: CA prop 187                            

     Considering all the time we are spending on CA prop 188 is 
it not more interesting to deal with 187?  Throw the illegals out 
of the system?  It sounds like great policy to me.  If they do 
not like it they can go back where they came from and they are 
here illegally in the first place.  

     They are not Americans.  They are Mexican citizens with no 
business here. 

     That the federal government won't do a damn thing about it 
and forces California (and every other state to support them) is 
ludicrous.  And the best opposition to it is to claim everyone 
who is against supporting illegals is a racist.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (110)
To:      Paul West                              19 Oct 94 21:39:10
Subject: Capitol 800 Number                     

PW>  Well, it was bound to happen.  The toll free number to the 
PW>  U.S.  capitol, (800) 768-2221, has been disconnected.  That 
PW>  is too bad but many many people used it to stop some very 
PW>  bad legislation while it was available.
PW> 
PW>  Congratulations fellow Citizens!

     Why do you consider it good that they have cut themselves 
off from much public contact?  The only thing it reads like to me 
is that they have just moved the Revolution Watch up a few 
seconds.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ BATF Motto "Let God sort out the innocent!"
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (111)
To:      All                                    19 Oct 94 21:44:10
Subject: Militia Question                       

     There is talk of the formation of citizen militias today as 
there never has been since they went out of style.  So I am 
asking for information.  Do you have direct knowledge of any such 
militias (newspaper, TV included)?  Can you give a general idea 
where they are forming and how you heard of it?       


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ BBQed Baby Back Ribs, Waco style.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (112)
To:      Phillip Robertson                      19 Oct 94 22:11:10
Subject: Hemp                                   

PR>     Does anyone want to talk about Marijuana? I know that 
PR>   it's hardly controversial compared to most of the other 
PR>   topics here, but it IS illegal to smoke it, although many 
PR>   people continue to do so.

     Fido carries a NORML conference.  Why not ask your moderator 
for it?  



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ We are here to help you, Jude, I mean Mr. Koresh.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (113)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        19 Oct 94 22:14:10
Subject: IN YOUR CANADA NEXT                    

BS>  First of all, we don't have any figures on "carriers", only 
BS>  estimates that have proved to be wild in the past.

     If you are talking HIV vice ARC cases then the average time 
to conversion divided by the average time to death is a good 
enough estimate.  Multiply that number by the number of ARC cases 
and you have the number of carriers.  The earliest estimates of 
the number of carriers was rather accurate.  The departure from 
accuracy got worse up until two years ago when the method of 
estimating was revised based upon the leveling off of the number 
of new cases per year.  

     Wild is not the word for it.

BS>  The latest figures I saw on AIDS cases had it 47% due to 
BS>  gay sex transmission, 9% due to heterosexual sex 
BS>  transmission.

     And when were these figures the latest?  

     And what were the rest of the case percentages?  

     And please include the mixed category of both homosexual and 
IV drug users that being the most likely path for HIV into the 
drug using community.

     AND it is not honest to fail to point out that the hetero 
cases are some 95+% women who have had sex with bi-sexual or IV 
drug using men.  That is a different slant that saying 
heterosexual.  Before the drug users became common cases straight 
female cases were all from bi-sexuals save for the blood and 
blood product infections.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 1.  Kill them before they burn you alive.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (114)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        19 Oct 94 22:24:10
Subject: INCONSISTENT SURVEY                    

BS>  The study doesn't need outside critics: it is internally 
BS>  inconsistent.  It has a refusal rate of over 20%, yet dares 
BS>  to publish a 2.8% statistic for a socially unpopular group 
BS>  who would have reason to fear sanctions if confidentiality 
BS>  were breached.
BS> 
BS>  It accepts that only 2.8% are gay or bisexual, while also 
BS>  accepting that 11% find receiving anal intercourse 
BS>  appealing.

     Of which 8.2% were female.

BS>  Likewise while accepting 2.8% as gay or bisexual, it finds 
BS>  that 6% find sex with another man an appealing idea.

     That is called bisexual.

BS>  I'm afraid the survey has internal contradictions that call 
BS>  its conclusions, at least as presented in the popular 
BS>  press, into serious question.

     Rather the real point is that prior to this survey Kinsey 
had conducted the ONLY formal survey worthy of the name.  He 
found ONLY 6% gay from a rather selected population.  The 10% was 
a number pulled out of thin air and NEVER had any valid support.  

     Of course if you would like to cite a valid survey that 
supports 10% please feel free to do so.  And please not the one 
that said have you ever had a desire for a man and then counted 
one time as a hit.  Do that and a survey asking the opposite 
question would prove a gay is really hetero.

     In the interim the actual conclusion of the survey in 
question was that 1% of the population is in fact homosexual and 
that leaving things as open as possible was the only way to get 
to your 2.8% figure.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Bureau of Firearms, Alcohol, Religion and Tobacco
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (115)
To:      Chris Boyd                             19 Oct 94 22:37:10
Subject: Omega Point Theory                     

CB>       I claimed Omni as my source to make sure readers in 
CB>       this echo would take it as legitamate, and not just 
CB>       pure rantings.

     But in so doing you demonstrated it was pure ranting, merely 
that it was not your ranting.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 2.  Obey or die.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (125)
To:      All                                    20 Oct 94 19:27:10
Subject: KPOC, The Waco Incident                

                       The Waco Incident
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/20>

     This is an unpaid advertisement for a videotape everyone
should have and watch and show to anyone who will sit still long
enough to watch.  The video is entitled, "The Waco Incident."  It
is available from KPOC-TV, 114 West Central, Ponca City,
Oklahoma, 74601, for $23.45 postpaid.
     It tells the clearest and the most damning highlights of the
the Branch Davidians story from the first senseless attack to the
final murders and destruction of the evidence.  What is left out
of the story only supports what is told in 100 minutes.  It is an
excellent use of 100 minutes.
     Those who have been following it are going to see or hear
little new to them.  What they will see is the story put together
from beginning to end in one coherent and very viewable piece of
investigative reporting.  It is not without its human interest
emotional content mixed with its factual content.
     What distinguishes it from other tapes is that it does not
dwell upon the tedious conspiratorial details.  Rather it takes
the network tapes at face value and dwells upon what they mean in
context.
     For example, it does not try to make a case for how the four
BATF agents died or whether or not they were the ones going into
the second floor window or that they were Clinton bodyguards.
Rather it shows the tapes of the attack with a voice over of the
Branch Davidian 911 call that happened at the same time and lets
the viewer judge who is responsible for what.
     It does not pull punches in any respect.  When the
description is murder it uses the word murder.  It does not use
death.  It does not use the passive voice.  In doing so it uses
these terms with reference to supportable points without going
into the details.  It is the kind of blunt talk the rare
references in the mainstream media couch in non-judgmental
terms.
     For example, it uses as a point of departure the known and
established effects of CS gas and its burn products without
digressing into "proving" them.  The fact that the products upon
heating are hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen chloride and carbon
monoxide are matter of factly with the manufacturer as the source
of the information.  It clearly points out the case of autopsy
reports listing the cause of death as smoke inhalation simply
neglects to mention what kind of smoke. 
     It does a matter of fact interview with a retired army
helicopter pilot who was recalled to active duty solely for the
purpose of participating in the BATF with his statement he was
sworn to secrecy regarding what happened in the attack.  Why him?
It is unstated other than that he is a Vietnam veteran and the
tactic in Vietnam was to initiate an attack with helo fire into
the roof of a building prior to the ground attack.  You pick a
reason, you can hear his own words. 
     Following this it carries a taped interview with the
Commanding Officer of Fort Hood recounting the reporters being
stonewalled by the government and pointing out that he is
stonewalling them.  In this case the stonewalling is specifically
the criminal use of the military while the Commanding Officer
reiterates that he follows the law.
     From the reference to the statements of three Texas judges
that the warrant does not satisfy the requirements for such a
warrant to the murderous deviation from the final attack plan the
tape is damning to the government.
     There are no exaggerations here.  There are no conspiracies
here.  There is nothing you are asked to believe that is beyond
what is stated and shown.  It is clear, it is factual, it is all
supported directly or by passing reference. 
     Regarding its value compared to the other tapes.  I had
shown one of them to a person who knew little of the events at
Waco.  That conspiracy tape made little impression.  This one
elicited the comment, "I didn't understand what it was all about
before."  Now she wants us to visit Waco and where the survivors
are imprisoned and conduct interviews.
     If you you want to see it all in one place, if you want
others to see it, this is the tape to have.  If you have local
talk show people who have not seen it, lend them your copy, buy
them a copy of their own.  Above all, advertise it.  Let people
know it exists. 

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Read "Sleeping Your Way to the Top" by Hillary Clinton
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941025 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (66)
To:      Ann Ross                                1 Oct 94 13:08:10
Subject: "won"                                  

AR>  AR>          Since it is so clear after all this time you will
AR>  AR>          never be intelligent enough to "get it," I have to
AR>  AR>          TELL you that you are so inferior that nothing you
AR>  AR>          ever say will have the ability to even faze me.

AR>  MG> Not even if we talk about your weight?

AR>          Go right ahead - we tall 'un's are a proud of not 
AR>          having the problem you short nerds do.

     You mean like a 6'6" Twiggy?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Rush Limbaugh is too humble.  -- Matt Giwer
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (67)
To:      Ann Ross                                1 Oct 94 13:08:10
Subject: Huh?                                   

AR>  MG>  As for the time for tensions, Clancy's latest is about the 
AR>  MG>  worst case short of starting over.  The countries that 
AR>  MG>  matter have worked together against the Soviet Union for 
AR>  MG>  nearly half a century.  Russia is starting from scratch.

AR>          Did you know that Clancy is supporting Ollie North.  
AR>          He must be trying to get THE book - he can't be 
AR>          that stupid.

     Military types understand each other much better than 
civilians can ever understand the military or each other.  Were 
you to work at it you might have a chance of understanding why.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for rice.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (68)
To:      Mark Riedel                             1 Oct 94 17:55:10
Subject: ATHEISM                                

MR>   Well, I'll agree that the implication is that god is 
MR>   non-existent, but not that, in the alternative, he would 
MR>   be irrelevant.  If you've got a supreme being who is going 
MR>   around creating universes and life forms, whether he 
MR>   chooses to make himself patently obvious or not, he is 
MR>   certainly not irrelevant.

     In the absence of any evidence of existence then hiding is 
the only proper description.

MR>  KB>  Of course, the argument "every event has a cause" can then 
MR>  KB>  be applied to god.  What caused god?  Oh, god was 
MR>  KB>  self-caused or uncaused.  Hmm, well, that violates the 
MR>  KB>  entire premise, so, if one wishes to now

MR>   Well, I'm not sure it violated the entire premise, though.  

     In absence of any justification as to why it should stop at 
a point where a thing for which there is no evidence did 
something that can be adequately explained without reference to 
it is completely arbitrary.

MR>   I'm sure the argument would be that god exists outside of 
MR>   time as we know it and is never-beginning and never-ending 
MR>   and that all events can be traced back to him.  

     And what is such an argument save an attempt to salvage the 
idea of a god and explain its non-evidenciary nature?



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ I do not have an ego.  I am right.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (69)
To:      Frank Scheidt                           1 Oct 94 18:00:10
Subject: Atheism                                

FS>  KB>  However, your point has an implicit assumption within it - 
FS>  KB>  that the universe itself follows the physical laws present 
FS>  KB>  within it.  Until this point can be substantiated, your 
FS>  KB>  claim has no foundation.

FS>  Quite the contrary.  My contention is that one cannot 
FS>  explain a SUPERnatural event with natural laws.

     One has to demonstrate there are supernatural events to 
begin with rather than simply presenting an argument from 
ignorance that everything unexplained is supernatural.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ To much of a good thing is a gift from the gods.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (70)
To:      Andrew Cummins                          1 Oct 94 18:05:10
Subject: BIBLE                                  

AC>  BS>  1.  Your book of myths says in one place that Judas bought 
AC>  BS>  the "Blood Field", but in another place it says the priests 
AC>  BS>  bought it.  Which is the truth?

AC>  It's as simple as the priests acting as agents for Judas.  
AC>  They bought the field with his money.  If you don't respect 
AC>  the Bible, why don't you just leave it alone?

     No place does it say the priests acted as his agent.  You 
are adding to the bible which carries quite a condemnation 
according to some interpretations.  

     You might also explain why the highest non-roman authority 
in the area would act as an agent of an assassin while you are at 
it.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ One Finger is all a real American needs.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (71)
To:      Andrew Cummins                          1 Oct 94 18:09:10
Subject: BIG BANG                               

AC>  SB>  In quantum physics, it can be shown that the energy 
AC>  SB>  inherent in one cubic metre of vacuum is equivalent to that 
AC>  SB>  required to boil the Earth's oceans.  For more discussion on 
AC>  SB>  such, you should join PHYSICS and inquire of the 
AC>  SB>  physicists.

AC>  Heh heh.  I suppose you're just trying to prove that there 
AC>  is nothing too absurd for you to believe.

     Rather something creationists are not bright enough to 
understand.  Even Genesis is to hard for them.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Born in 1945; the replacement for WW II.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (72)
To:      Andrew Cummins                          1 Oct 94 18:13:10
Subject: Evolution                              

AC>  IL> We can find past events by evidence left behind and use that as
AC>  IL> proof-- and we have.

AC>  You must have scientific evidence confused with 
AC>  circumstantial evidence.  A typical error of evolutionuts.

     Strangely physical evidence is not circumstantial evidence.  
Ask any attorney.  You are lying again.

     Want to tell us there are and are not salt beds around the 
Dead Sea again?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ I, Matthias Gloriosus, I, messager to 1000s, I am my ideal.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (73)
To:      Willie Martin                           1 Oct 94 18:18:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark                     

WM>  > WM> Send your SASE to:
WM>  > WM>
WM>  > WM>                          Willie Martin
WM>  > WM>                          P.O. Box 15280
WM>  > WM>                          Arlington, Texas 76015

WM>  > I'm curious as to two things.  One, it seems (from your
WM>  > wording) that you can
WM>  > use the Bible to prove the flood was local to one region.  Is
WM>  > this so?

WM> Yes I can.

WM>  > Two, why don't you just post your study here?  Is it very
WM>  > long?

WM>  Its about 20 Post of 60 lines long.  I have not posted it 
WM>  because if people really want to know the truth then they 
WM>  will expend the energy to send an SASE to get a copy.  If 
WM>  not then they really don't want to know anyway.

     How do 22 pages fit into an standard SASE?  Did you forget 
to say 9x12 envelop and five stamps?


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Though I walk thru the valley, I am the meanest SOB.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (74)
To:      All                                     1 Oct 94 20:08:10
Subject: Haiti, Clinton's Playpen               

                    Haiti, Clinton's Playpen
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/1>

     I have refrained for two weeks from commenting upon the
unnecessary and unwarranted invasion of Haiti.  I have done this
to give President Clinton a chance to get his act act together on
the Island.  I am certain he appreciates the breathing space.
     This is called Operation Restore Democracy.  In the two
weeks it appears better named Operation Cry Havoc.  Judging only
by an obviously free press before and after the invasion the
deaths have obviously increased.
     Added to the deaths have been looting, rioting and general
mayhem.  And in this US forces have more or less stood by to
watch.  It is obvious the invasion triggered this increase in the
violence in Haiti and equally obvious the troops directed by the
President are doing nothing about it.
     I have not kept a daily tally but my strong impression is
that the violence is increasing daily.  Also there appear to be
two partisan types of violence, the deaths of Aristide supporters
and looting by Aristide supporters.  I do not wish to be
misunderstood here, there is no connection between the looting
and legitimate shooting looters.
     The acceleration of violence due to the US intervention
appears to be causing a break down in Haitian society.  Of course
I did see some Congressman on the CBS Evening News respond to a
question on violence that he didn't see any.  The CBS reporter
found quite a bit of it.  When asked if he thought the US could
have done something about it (some bludgeoning deaths and
injuries) he pointed out there were US tanks only two blocks
away.
     But then one of the justifications for sending troops that
was repeated even after General Cedras agreed to leave was to
prevent the breakdown of the social order.  Yet there is not the
slightest evidence the US is doing one thing to prevent it.
There is every evidence the US has caused it.
     I am not ready to declare I was correct that the invasion
was a bad idea.  I am going to point out that as the killings,
lootings, and rioting increase that if and when the US moves to
prevent further social breakdown that our troops will be required
to kill more people to do it.  That will make more enemies for
the US.  The more enemies the troops create the more members of
the insurgency, the more people will carry that hatred to their
graves with their actions.
     Had there been a rational plan the first step would have
gone as planned, to secure strategic locations.  The second did
not occur, take control of the government.  The third step would
have been to establish martial law.  The failure to implement the
second and third is inexcusable.
     This was an invasion.  It is an occupation.  It is being
treated as a training exercise.  Funny, I remember calling it
that.  I did make the mistake of saying it would be with
bullets.  As it is they might as well be disarmed.
     Once committed to a course of action it is incumbent upon
the man in charge to act in accordance with that course of
action.  The US clearly is not doing so.
     In failing to do so the US has increased the loss of life.
The US is going to start being the cause of more loss of life in
restoring order.  And there was no reason to have let that order
slip away in the first place.
     Of course slip away is hardly the word for it.  It was
foreseeable to the point where it was an announced objective of
the invasion.  That it has been let happen can not be explained
by anything other than it was only rhetoric and never part of the
plan in the first place.
     In other words, the famous "nothing speech" of President
Clinton to justify contained one more lie, that the occupation
would preserve the social order.  He said it only.  He had no
intention nor were there any plans to do so.  We were sold
another bill of goods.
     This man may or may not loathe the military.  He has
absolutely no conception of what it means to use the military.
He appears to believe the way to do it is the same way he gets
votes, make a speech saying it and then the troops will do it.
     In any event, it has been two weeks of nothing but events
contrary to the announced intentions and purpose of the
occupation.  It is clear that had the US not taken action there
would have been less death and violence than there is now.  It is
also clear that the buck stops in the Oval Office and if the
electorate really beliefs it is in control of the government,
those who voted for William Jefferson Blythe Clinton share the
responsibility.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Innocense is a pesky technicality in Israel.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (75)
To:      Bert Byfield                            2 Oct 94 02:02:10
Subject: Cats And Learned Beha                  

BB>  LT>  * KWQ/2 1.2g *Death?  Life?  I never did understand Zen

BB> Watch Kung Fu reruns.

     The Teacher, The Grasshopper and the very big Watch.



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Eat anything that doesn't eat you first.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (76)
To:      All                                     2 Oct 94 09:29:00
Subject: Haiti, Clinton's Playpen               

                    Haiti, Clinton's Playpen
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/1>

     I have refrained for two weeks from commenting upon the
unnecessary and unwarranted invasion of Haiti.  I have done this
to give President Clinton a chance to get his act act together on
the Island.  I am certain he appreciates the breathing space.
     This is called Operation Restore Democracy.  In the two
weeks it appears better named Operation Cry Havoc.  Judging only
by an obviously free press before and after the invasion the
deaths have obviously increased.
     Added to the deaths have been looting, rioting and general
mayhem.  And in this US forces have more or less stood by to
watch.  It is obvious the invasion triggered this increase in the
violence in Haiti and equally obvious the troops directed by the
President are doing nothing about it.
     I have not kept a daily tally but my strong impression is
that the violence is increasing daily.  Also there appear to be
two partisan types of violence, the deaths of Aristide supporters
and looting by Aristide supporters.  I do not wish to be
misunderstood here, there is no connection between the looting
and legitimate shooting looters.
     The acceleration of violence due to the US intervention
appears to be causing a break down in Haitian society.  Of course
I did see some Congressman on the CBS Evening News respond to a
question on violence that he didn't see any.  The CBS reporter
found quite a bit of it.  When asked if he thought the US could
have done something about it (some bludgeoning deaths and
injuries) he pointed out there were US tanks only two blocks
away.
     But then one of the justifications for sending troops that
was repeated even after General Cedras agreed to leave was to
prevent the breakdown of the social order.  Yet there is not the
slightest evidence the US is doing one thing to prevent it.
There is every evidence the US has caused it.
     I am not ready to declare I was correct that the invasion
was a bad idea.  I am going to point out that as the killings,
lootings, and rioting increase that if and when the US moves to
prevent further social breakdown that our troops will be required
to kill more people to do it.  That will make more enemies for
the US.  The more enemies the troops create the more members of
the insurgency, the more people will carry that hatred to their
graves with their actions.
     Had there been a rational plan the first step would have
gone as planned, to secure strategic locations.  The second did
not occur, take control of the government.  The third step would
have been to establish martial law.  The failure to implement the
second and third is inexcusable.
     This was an invasion.  It is an occupation.  It is being
treated as a training exercise.  Funny, I remember calling it
that.  I did make the mistake of saying it would be with
bullets.  As it is they might as well be disarmed.
     Once committed to a course of action it is incumbent upon
the man in charge to act in accordance with that course of
action.  The US clearly is not doing so.
     In failing to do so the US has increased the loss of life.
The US is going to start being the cause of more loss of life in
restoring order.  And there was no reason to have let that order
slip away in the first place.
     Of course slip away is hardly the word for it.  It was
foreseeable to the point where it was an announced objective of
the invasion.  That it has been let happen can not be explained
by anything other than it was only rhetoric and never part of the
plan in the first place.
     In other words, the famous "nothing speech" of President
Clinton to justify contained one more lie, that the occupation
would preserve the social order.  He said it only.  He had no
intention nor were there any plans to do so.  We were sold
another bill of goods.
     This man may or may not loathe the military.  He has
absolutely no conception of what it means to use the military.
He appears to believe the way to do it is the same way he gets
votes, make a speech saying it and then the troops will do it.
     In any event, it has been two weeks of nothing but events
contrary to the announced intentions and purpose of the
occupation.  It is clear that had the US not taken action there
would have been less death and violence than there is now.  It is
also clear that the buck stops in the Oval Office and if the
electorate really beliefs it is in control of the government,
those who voted for William Jefferson Blythe Clinton share the
responsibility.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Innocense is a pesky technicality in Israel.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (77)
To:      All                                     2 Oct 94 09:30:00
Subject: Haiti, Clinton's Playpen               

                    Haiti, Clinton's Playpen
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/1>

     I have refrained for two weeks from commenting upon the
unnecessary and unwarranted invasion of Haiti.  I have done this
to give President Clinton a chance to get his act act together on
the Island.  I am certain he appreciates the breathing space.
     This is called Operation Restore Democracy.  In the two
weeks it appears better named Operation Cry Havoc.  Judging only
by an obviously free press before and after the invasion the
deaths have obviously increased.
     Added to the deaths have been looting, rioting and general
mayhem.  And in this US forces have more or less stood by to
watch.  It is obvious the invasion triggered this increase in the
violence in Haiti and equally obvious the troops directed by the
President are doing nothing about it.
     I have not kept a daily tally but my strong impression is
that the violence is increasing daily.  Also there appear to be
two partisan types of violence, the deaths of Aristide supporters
and looting by Aristide supporters.  I do not wish to be
misunderstood here, there is no connection between the looting
and legitimate shooting looters.
     The acceleration of violence due to the US intervention
appears to be causing a break down in Haitian society.  Of course
I did see some Congressman on the CBS Evening News respond to a
question on violence that he didn't see any.  The CBS reporter
found quite a bit of it.  When asked if he thought the US could
have done something about it (some bludgeoning deaths and
injuries) he pointed out there were US tanks only two blocks
away.
     But then one of the justifications for sending troops that
was repeated even after General Cedras agreed to leave was to
prevent the breakdown of the social order.  Yet there is not the
slightest evidence the US is doing one thing to prevent it.
There is every evidence the US has caused it.
     I am not ready to declare I was correct that the invasion
was a bad idea.  I am going to point out that as the killings,
lootings, and rioting increase that if and when the US moves to
prevent further social breakdown that our troops will be required
to kill more people to do it.  That will make more enemies for
the US.  The more enemies the troops create the more members of
the insurgency, the more people will carry that hatred to their
graves with their actions.
     Had there been a rational plan the first step would have
gone as planned, to secure strategic locations.  The second did
not occur, take control of the government.  The third step would
have been to establish martial law.  The failure to implement the
second and third is inexcusable.
     This was an invasion.  It is an occupation.  It is being
treated as a training exercise.  Funny, I remember calling it
that.  I did make the mistake of saying it would be with
bullets.  As it is they might as well be disarmed.
     Once committed to a course of action it is incumbent upon
the man in charge to act in accordance with that course of
action.  The US clearly is not doing so.
     In failing to do so the US has increased the loss of life.
The US is going to start being the cause of more loss of life in
restoring order.  And there was no reason to have let that order
slip away in the first place.
     Of course slip away is hardly the word for it.  It was
foreseeable to the point where it was an announced objective of
the invasion.  That it has been let happen can not be explained
by anything other than it was only rhetoric and never part of the
plan in the first place.
     In other words, the famous "nothing speech" of President
Clinton to justify contained one more lie, that the occupation
would preserve the social order.  He said it only.  He had no
intention nor were there any plans to do so.  We were sold
another bill of goods.
     This man may or may not loathe the military.  He has
absolutely no conception of what it means to use the military.
He appears to believe the way to do it is the same way he gets
votes, make a speech saying it and then the troops will do it.
     In any event, it has been two weeks of nothing but events
contrary to the announced intentions and purpose of the
occupation.  It is clear that had the US not taken action there
would have been less death and violence than there is now.  It is
also clear that the buck stops in the Oval Office and if the
electorate really beliefs it is in control of the government,
those who voted for William Jefferson Blythe Clinton share the
responsibility.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Innocense is a pesky technicality in Israel.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (107)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        21 Oct 94 19:15:10
Subject: Absenteeism                            

JB>  MG> A nice career with 1.5 year vacations.

JB>  Naaaahhh...  a Prez campaign (which I've signed on to - I 
JB>  must have lost my mind with all the stress lately) can 
JB>  start up to two years (or more) before election day.  

     Billie Jeff started his December 1992 but still...

     Good to hear you got into a Pres bid so soon in your career.  

     

     Willing to say for who or do you have to wait until they 
announce?  

The 
JB>  stuff I prefer, state and local campaigns, happen a lot - 
JB>  issue elections, special elections, and many city council 
JB>  elections fall outside of the every two years in November 
JB>  schedule.  BTW: _issue_ elections are the campaign 
JB>  consultant's bread and butter.

     Reality comes crashing.  Sort of like I found in 
international arms dealing -- is it selling spare cable and such.

JB>  But I will get a two month "vacation" (mostly) after 
JB>  election day.  Heavenly!  I'll get to sleep late again!

     Sleeping isn't good for you.  Makes you grow shot at 
revenooers and miss.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ BATF Motto "Let God sort out the innocent!"
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (108)
To:      Charles Hill                           21 Oct 94 19:21:10
Subject: The future of futures                  

CH>  MG>  I suggest everyone will agree guessing what anything might 
CH>  MG>  be worth a century from now is at best a parlor game.

CH>  Replace "century" with "year", and it's not much 
CH>  different....cgh

     Which does bring up an interesting.  The futures markets are 
mostly 12 months with a few (have to look them up) up to two 
years, except T-Bill offerings which can run up to 20 years.  As 
they are futures themselves there exists only a spot market in 
them.   

     I just waded through Clancy's latest.  If it hadn't been for 
my first article on this going back to April or so folks might be 
accusing me of copying but he really does not go deep enough into 
what it really means.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Lt. Frank Drebbin was in Charge of Corpus Crispy OPS.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (191)
To:      All                                    15 Oct 94 14:28:10
Subject: REAL VALUE                             

     Although I would greatly appreciate being investigated by 
the Securities and Exchange Commission for this message (just to 
post a real inside joke to the boards) consider it disclaimed.

     In line with my posts on the value of money, I am hereby 
creating a futures market in tangible assets.  I am now taking 
options on any and all commodities.  There is only one catch, the 
earliest effective date of any option is 15 October 2094.  

     I suggest everyone will agree guessing what anything might 
be worth a century from now is at best a parlor game.  The 
Econuts will be betting on lumber and air while the technologists 
will be trying to quantify the value of information that far 
ahead.  

     Of course I have a couple hedges here.  No one reading this 
will be alive (save the SEC descendants will try to exhume my 
body for prosecution.)  But all of us are planning on some form 
of asset for the future in some form, insurance, social security, 
investments, whatever.  They are denominated in dollars in some 
manner, whether fixed or variable interest or politically 
determined dollars.  

     We are all making a best guess for the future as to what the 
thing will be worth in terms of dollars.  Given the uncertainty 
of the "thing" it keeps an army of investment counselors 
employed.  What commodity could dollars possibly be based upon if 
there is no agreement as to the value of anything even within our 
own lifetimes?  

     And who was smart enough to switch from US Steel to 
MacDonalds ten years ago?  Could fast food ever be a better 
investment than steel?

=====

ps     I am also taking side bets we may or may not be using the 
same calendar system a century hence.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (192)
To:      All                                    15 Oct 94 15:06:10
Subject: WOMEN'S RIGHTS                         

     Women claim they are oppressed?  They are always in the 
background?  Never get recognized?

     Consider Mother Teresa.  If you want to talk about really 
oppressed, shoved into the background, lack of recognition how 
much have you ever heard about Father Teresa?  He is obviously 
the power behind the throne.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ I am not a number.  I am a free man.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (193)
To:      John O'brien                           15 Oct 94 23:13:10
Subject:  STORY ARCHIVES    (1)                 

JO>  Surely this reflects socio-economic status much more than 
JO>  race.  So how can one "remove" a very real segment of a 
JO>  nation's society from the equation?

     When data is taken by race it means only race.  It is not 
proper to assume anything other than race.

     If you do then you find even more unpleasant things when you 
"assume" only the blacks in that socio-economic category are 
committing all those crimes.  That is, it goes up by a factor of 
four to six depending upon the income level used.  That makes the 
"race" look even blacker -- so to speak.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (194)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        15 Oct 94 23:17:10
Subject: A POLITE SOCIETY                       

BS> MG>      A better analogy would be charging the farmer 
BS> MG> slaughtering  his animals and bombing his house.
BS> MG> 
BS> MG>      The BATF is quite lucky Koresh was not as they 
BS> MG> portrayed  him.  Else th all would have died.

BS>  Koresh took over control of Mt.  Carmel in an armed invasion 
BS>  in which the prior ruler was wounded.  He had a documented 
BS>  history of armed violence.

     The previous leader exhumed the body of a dead Davidian 
woman and challenged Koresh to raise her from the dead.  Koresh 
went to the sheriff to complain but the sheriff said he needed 
evidence, witnesses would do.  Koresh and several other went out 
there to become witnesses.  There was an armed confrontation and 
the other guy was hit in the finger.  

     He was arrested for desecration at first and a 
methamphetamine lab was found in the house he lived in which lead 
to additional charges.  

     As a result of this incident someone had been shot and the 
sheriff phoned Koresh to ask him to come to his office and answer 
an arrest warrant.  After doing so Koresh was released on 
condition that he turn in any guns that he possessed which he 
did.  The grand jury hearing the case failed to indict.

     Most of the people had left the ranch before this happened.  
After this arrest Koresh became the leader of those people who 
wanted to move back to the ranch.  

     If that is what you consider a history of armed violence you 
have a rather definition of it.  Perhaps you can find a history 
of armed violence in what really happened rather than what you 
imagine happened.  If you can, please describe what you consider 
to be violent.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Linda Thompson, loose cannon on deck.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (195)
To:      Psycho Path                            15 Oct 94 23:29:10
Subject: Citizen Militias                       

PP> MG>  Anyone paying attention knows that militias are forming all 
PP> MG>  over the country primarily in response to the excesses of 
PP> MG>  the government particularly at Waco.

PP>  Matt, I think you miss two points.  One, Congress has the 
PP>  power to organize, arm, and discipline the militia as well 
PP>  as the authority to prescribe its training.  

     That does appear to be the wording.

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of
the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia,
and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the
service of the United States, reserving to the States
respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority
of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by
Congress;

Two, it is not 
PP>  necessary to be a member of the militia in order to posess 
PP>  the right to keep and bear arms.

     Where did I say it did?  I am merely commenting upon their 
being formed up.  

2nd Amendment
A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a
free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall
not be infringed.

     That being the reason for the RTKBA, to form up militias.  

     The security of a state is threatened when the federal 
government can move into a state and attack and kill its citizens 
with impugnity.  


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (196)
To:      Bert Byfield                           15 Oct 94 23:36:10
Subject: Civilians And Assault We               

BB>  MG>       Head shots, ma boy, head shots.  With the small size 
BB>  MG>  body target, the body on it is head sized.  Quite 
BB>  MG>  convenient for practice.  Hit that "body" at 21 feet and 
BB>  MG>  you can hit a head inside a house.

BB> *** a quote: (also, JJ and SS: listen up! ***
BB>  The biggest obstacle to buying the coolest handguns is your 
BB>  ego.  Lots of people just don't have the courage to buy one 
BB>  of those ultra-concealable, small caliber handguns 
BB>  sometimes called "Saturday Night Specials."
BB> 
BB>  Too bad.
BB> 
BB>  ...  Particularly stupid is their oft-expressed viewpoint 
BB>  that .22 or .25 caliber bullets are practically harmless.

     I do not remember anyone saying harmless.  I know a PI who 
swears by his .25 with +P rounds.  I have one myself although I 
would not think of reaching for it first.

BB>  Right.  I'm sure Bobby Kennedy would agree that such 
BB>  bullets don't do much damage at all -- except he got his 
BB>  head blown off by one.  No, wait, ask Jim Brady.  See what 
BB>  he has to drool on the subject.  The .22 long round that 
BB>  broke into his skull traveled around the inside of his head 
BB>  before it ran out of steam...

     The issue is, given a choice between a large and small 
caliber gun in the same circumstances, which would you use?  
There are way too many cases of the .22 LR simply not penetrating 
or doing the funny things that high velocity, low mass bullets 
are famous for.  In a choice between a .22 and a .25 I would take 
the .25 simply to avoid that.  

     However, having at my option a .25 a .380 and a .45 can even 
this author give me a good reason to reach for anything but the 
.45?  Were concealability the issue it is hard to imagine any but 
the smallest person not being able to conceal a .380.  

BB>  Entirely too much emphasis is placed on a handgun with the 
BB>  magical power to disintegrate someone in a single shot.  
BB>  Any study of bullet wounds will show that what a bullet 
BB>  does once it hits the body is not predictable.  Caliber, 
BB>  velocity, foot- fucking-pounds of energy are so much macho 
BB>  hee-hawing.  Small caliber guns have a lot to recommend 
BB>  them, not the least being the kinds of ammo they fire.

     However, there are serious studies of real world usage of 
the different rounds and from that the factors have been 
extracted that can predict the one shot stopping power of the 
standard calibers and variations.  These are statistical and are 
only probabilities not predictions.  They indicate that if you 
are going to shoots craps nothing can guarantee a win but you 
might as well use loaded dice if you can..

BB>  ...  One last comment on the holy doctrine of "stopping 
BB>  power." The ability to instantly kill or incapacitate a 
BB>  person with a single shot depends mostly on placement of 
BB>  the bullet -- not the bullet itself.  Cop files are full of 
BB>  instances of guys soaking up many rounds of 
BB>  "one-shot-stoppers" and continuing on.

     And there are stories of a .223 round hitting a VC in the 
ankle and enough shock being transmitted to the spinal cord to 
cause death.  

BB>  ...  So fuck the snoots who tell you not to buy the 
BB>  "pea-shooters" and if you really have something in the 
BB>  one-shot stop category, buy a .32 and used Winchester 
BB>  Silvertip ammo.  This bullet has been proven to have just 
BB>  as much fucking stopping power as a 9mm.

     I would like the source of this claim but then it is not 
you.  

     If one is buying new then there is not much spread in price 
between calibers of equal quality / reputation guns.  I paid more 
for the Mauser .380 almost 20 years ago than I paid for a S&W .45 
this year.

     Ammunition prices are also all over the map as I can get .45 
cheaper than either .25 or .380 (last I checked although 
reloading would be another story.)  

     All else being equal I will stick with the .45 until I get 
the urge to go back to a wheel gun (every 5-10 years) and then it 
will be a .44 mag.  I see no reason not to.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Get Janet a fiddle.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (197)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           16 Oct 94 00:05:10
Subject: Lady soldiers in haiti                 

KP>  MG>  But then, it is the way of feminists to get women killed 
KP>  MG>  for lack of ability.  Pointing that out is the end of a 
KP>  MG>  career for anyone in the military.

KP>          Well it sure as hell ani't the fast track to make 
KP>          General!

     But it is more fun to get an early retirement telling the 
truth about Clinton.


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (233)
To:      Ann Ross                               16 Oct 94 18:26:10
Subject: Espy's resignation                     

AR>  MG>  As you know now, Clinton did respond by saying he was in 
AR>  MG>  the hotel but did not remember meeting her.  We already 
AR>  MG>  have the State Trooper confirming they were in the same 
AR>  MG>  room at the same time.  Good enough for you?  Of course 
AR>  MG>  not.  As you hold, Clinton has no balls.

AR>          Can you tell me where I can see a copy of the 
AR>          trooper's statement.  I have seen two releases that 
AR>          quoted him as saying he DID NOT SEE HER ENTER HIS 
AR>          ROOM.

     I read it on politics probably from Thomas Yoha and it was 
mentioned on the ABC evening news.
     


---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ Get Janet a fiddle.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941029 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (149)
To:      Jim Higgins                            26 Oct 94 23:20:00
Subject: 1PARSEC/3.26 LIGHT YEARS               

JH>  LT>  How many weeks are there in a light year?

JH>  JH>  BD> 52.17857

JH>  JH>  Wrong!  A light year is a measure of distance not a measure
JH>  JH>  of time.
JH>  MG>
JH>  MG> How long is a nanosecond?

JH> Heheheh... What's a henway?

     A nanosecond is about as long as your screen is wide.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Bureau of Firearms, Alcohol, Religion and Tobacco

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (150)
To:      John Swanger                           27 Oct 94 01:07:00
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH'S AR 1/                   

JS>  MG>       Faith in the stories of ignorant, goat-herding 
JS>  MG>  tribesmen well describes you lying Christians.

JS>          Speaking of ignorant, If ignorance is bliss, as 
JS>          they say, you must be the happiest guy on the 
JS>          planet.
JS> 
JS>          Just for your future reference, although you 
JS>          probably will choose to fail to assimilate the 
JS>          information, recent evidence suggests that a major 
JS>          portion of what is now the Turkish - Iraqian basin 
JS>          or Persia was completely engulfed apprx.  4 to 6000 
JS>          years hence.  This encompassed the then "known" 
JS>          world.


     Which is as usual a crock of shit.

     But even if it were true then it makes the Flood a lie six 
ways from Sunday.  

     Do you have anything better than your unsubstantiated word 
for this?  Perhaps a reputable citation?  Of course not.  It is 
all lies and even in supporting the lies it gives the lie to the 
Flood.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (156)
To:      Edward Hudock                          27 Oct 94 15:23:00
Subject: BIBLE                                  

EH> MG>      When there are NO OTHERS mentioned it is difficult to 
EH> MG> see why others invent their existence.  Perhaps you can 
EH> MG> explain why they have to be invented?
EH> MG> 
EH> MG>      BTW:  The priests would have been unclean to handle 
EH> MG> blood money, something they would have avoided.  Who are you 
EH> MG> going to invent now?

EH>      Please prove this BTW statement.  Thank-you.

     Generally it comes from Leviticus 21:11

"Neither shall he do in to any dead body, nor defile himself for 
his father or for his mother;"  KJV

"he will not go near any corpse or make himself unclean even for 
his father or mother" NJB

     You will recall the rules written around each direct 
"regulation" provided by Yahweh were scrupulous in their 
inclusiveness not permitting loopholes but rather extending all 
of them to a greater coverage than stated.  This "regulation" was 
extended to anything directly connected with the dead 
specifically clothing.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages.  FBI at Waco.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (175)
To:      Katherine Fatherley                    27 Oct 94 20:39:00
Subject: FLOODING THE MODERN                    

KF>  KF> It rained here for about 40 days and many people were flooded
KF>  KF> out.

KF>  CB> How come the whole world didn't flood?

KF>      You are a very curious young man. God said that HE would
KF>      never flood the earth like that again. We remember that
KF>      promise when we see a rainbow.

     You mean light started acting differently after this flood?  
Are you really saying the sky was colorless before the flood or 
what?


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Today Waco.  Gestern USA.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941030 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (80)
To:      All                                    24 Oct 94 20:42:10
Subject: Kuwait, 10/24/94                       

                     Kuwait, 14 October 1994
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/24>

     It was a fun exercise.  It lasted barely two weeks.  What
was it?
     Just what happened?  Iraq tested the US and allied response
to a repeat performance of its invasion of Kuwait.  He
discovered, 1) he could not maintain troops within ten miles of
the border and 2) he could not maintain troops within one hundred
miles of the border and 3) he could not maintain troops that in
any manner would appear to threaten Kuwait.
     This was a probe, a test.  Until this test no one knew what
the real response might be to a threat upon Kuwait.  The standard
method of testing any military system it to probe it to elicit a
response -- to see what it does.  He found out.
     Really nothing happened.  Hussein did nothing more than
conduct a normal military exercise so it cost him effectively
nothing.  He conducted it in a location that was of value for
what could be learned from the probe.  What was learned?
     Primarily the time required for a response to be made.  We
have to give credence to US knowledge of the preparations for
this having started two weeks before it was made public.  As such
he has discovered there is a three week response time, two of
those weeks political and one of them military.  He and we now
know any future attack upon Kuwait, which mean occupying Kuwait
City, has to be accomplished in between two and three weeks, the
closer to two weeks the better.
     Additionally we learned that Russia is still acting as an
ally of Iraq in that it pleaded for the sanctions to be lifted in
return for only the recognition of Kuwait's independence.  In
general it was learned the old status quo of the US defending
Kuwait and Russia being a reliable ally still exists in reality
rather than what might only have been public posturing.
     The cost to learn this was effectively zero to Iraq in that
it could be considered simply a military exercise.  The the US
primarily but to some of the allies there were a few billion
expended and more still being spent.  Granted the US did get the
same sort of exercise, a practice deployment, and anything that
went wrong will certainly be corrected for next time.
     What now?  Unless you can read Hussein's mind we don't know.
Whether or not Iraq will now plan for a two week total drive to
Kuwait City is anyone's guess.  I presume the CIA and Mossad will
be tracking whatever Iraq purchases that could support such an
operation.
     We still have two nominally friendly and oil rich countries
who know without us Iraq can have them.  Iraq is also the bulwark
against the expansion of Moslem fundamentalism in Iran into the
Middle East.  Iraq remains an indispensable enemy.  
    In fact Iraq even serves to protect Kuwait from Iran.  And
Iran is the real threat to the region and nearly immune from US
ground attack due to its terrain.  The only thing that can be
attacked of Iran is what it might extend into another country to
attack it.  It is a rather interesting situation.

                            * * * * *

                              *****

     The intention of these posts is remain apolitical.  My
apologies to the political conferences.

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

       P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 ■ RM 1.3 01261 ■ "Flame on!" -- Janet "The Torch" Reno
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'i'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 377/6 9 15 50 396/1
SEEN-BY: 3603/10 20 570 3615/50 51 3619/25 3654/5 3659/2


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

+++■■■■■ r_941031 ■■■■■+++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (30)
To:      All                                    27 Oct 94 23:39:00
Subject: HAMMER AND NAIL                        

Government

     When the only tool you have is passing laws, everyone looks 
like a criminal.     


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Bill and Al's Bogus Adventure."  DEMs '92

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (32)
To:      All                                    28 Oct 94 00:26:00
Subject: 'THE BELL CURVE'                       

     Lets take this to Politics if it gets off topic.

     The Bell Curve may or may not be a valid study.  It may or 
may not draw legitimate conclusions.  The issue is rather that it 
is motivated by the politics of the authors (of which one has 
died.)  

     It can be attacked politically in that it appears to foster 
the agenda of the author.  In so attacking it, the position has 
to be that politics is regardless of science, i.e. observable 
reality.

     On the other hand the last time I heard, for a Gaussian 
deviation from the norm to be significant, it had to exceed one 
standard deviation.  That is 32 points or so not this niggardly 
ten to fifteen points the book discusses.  Granted tests for 
significance can be any damn thing you want to set and all the 
rest.  But just what it might mean to get a few things wrong on a 
timed tests vice never getting them right escapes me.

     That point being I have no idea what intelligence as 
measured by a printed test means.  (I score rather high for what 
that is worth.)  There are entire classes of problems most people 
can not solve without talking them over with someone else.  But 
once discussed they get the right answer.  

     Internal visualization of geometric rotations is an acquired 
skill but is part of the test.  Logic is an acquired skill also 
in that it can be taught and, as in politics, is often contrary 
to what is really going on.

     Having seen the original WW I Army IQ test (and wishing I 
still had a copy of it) I assure you no one here could even get a 
100 IQ (what do you know about really working horses for a 
living?  Gee and haw are the least of what you have to know.)

     If it is all true, the race differences are "statistically 
insignificantly" different in terms of IQ test results.  Why all 
the crap I have no idea.          


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * If the gods will not listen, then to hell with them.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (41)
To:      Christopher Ince                       28 Oct 94 01:24:00
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH'S AR 1/                   

CI>  AH> In a missive of  Christopher Ince (1:130/103)
CI>  AH> writes to Matt Giwer:

CI>  AH> CI>  The fact Noah's Ark and the flood are recorded in other 
CI>  AH> CI>  religions than Judaism and Christianity is evidence that 
CI>  AH> CI>  the flood did take

CI>  AH> No, it's possibly evidence that isolated floods have
CI>  AH> occured in different places, and may also be evidence that
CI>  AH> Judaism borrowed stories from other, earlier religions.

CI>  Your agenda for what you want to believe is clear.  I 
CI>  wonder how often entire regions are flooded?

     Never more than last year in the US Midwest.

CI>  The flood story being found in other religions does not 
CI>  make it a fact, but those stories are evidence that the 
CI>  flood could have taken place.

     Sorry, legends are legends and not evidence.  Real evidence 
consists of something we can still find particularly of something 
of this magnitude.

CI>  Evidence is evidence.  Also, it took around a year I 
CI>  believe in the story for the waters to subside, that would 
CI>  take a larger flood than an isolated flood to accumulate 
CI>  that much water.

     There never was any such thing so what is your point?  It 
happened, according to the Bible, in 2250 BC and we have evidence 
of at least a dozen civilizations that were continuous through 
that year.

CI>  Also the Moslem religion?  Which is where the other story 
CI>  came from, was created hundreds of years after the times of 
CI>  Christ.

     If you never noticed, the Israelites and the Moslems are the 
same people.  They share a common root language.  They just hate 
each other for more thousands of years than we should give a damn 
about.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Get Janet a fiddle.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (127)
To:      Mike Fisher                            28 Oct 94 19:24:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

MF>  MG>  That the federal government won't do a damn thing about it 
MF>  MG>  and forces California (and every other state to support 
MF>  MG>  them) is ludicrous.  And the best opposition to it is to 
MF>  MG>  claim everyone who is against supporting illegals is a 
MF>  MG>  racist.

MF>   I am interested in getting the text of the two 
MF>   propostitions.  Can you post them or do you know where I 
MF>   can access them?  Thanks.

     I have no idea but you are much closer to California than I 
am.  There must be some politically oriented board in CA that 
carries it.   


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 4.  The Feds can get away with it.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (128)
To:      Jim Higgins                            28 Oct 94 19:28:00
Subject: CA PROP 187                            

JH>  MG>  That the federal government won't do a damn thing about it 
JH>  MG>  and forces California (and every other state to support 
JH>  MG>  them) is ludicrous.  And the best opposition to it is to 
JH>  MG>  claim everyone who is against supporting illegals is a 
JH>  MG>  racist.

JH>  As of 10/26 it looks like Prop 187 will pass with nearly a 
JH>  3:2 (or even better) margin.  About the only thing in doubt 
JH>  is the margin IMO.  Then I suspect it will be dragged into 
JH>  the courts by the Feds.  That will be either a defeat for 
JH>  California which will anger the hell out of most everyone 
JH>  affected by this problem, or the defeat of the century for 
JH>  the Feds.  We can only hope that if the Feds lose, the 
JH>  ruling and opinion will cite the 10th Amendment as a major 
JH>  factor.  If the attitude of the courts reflects the ugly 
JH>  mood in the nation this is one the Feds would want to stay 
JH>  away from...  but we pretty well know it doesn't.  It will 
JH>  be interesting to say the least.

     Funny thing about SC decisions.  Unless they feel motivated 
they simply respond to the pleading not to the Constitution.  
Unless the state brings up the 10th they do not have to consider 
the 10th.  The CA attorney general, if elected, could sabotage 
the entire case by basing the SC case on something absurd and 
letting the case go down in flames.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * We are here to help you, Jude, I mean Mr. Koresh.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (130)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        28 Oct 94 19:32:00
Subject: IN YOUR CANADA NEXT                    

BS> MG>      AND it is not honest to fail to point out that the 
BS> MG> hetero  cases are so 95+% women who have had sex with 
BS> MG> bi-sexual or IV  drug using men.  That is a

BS> I'm just relaying the figures as they were presented.

     Then the figures were misleading but then what does one 
expect from a journalism major.

BS>  You get AIDS by doing something with an infected person.  
BS>  The fact is that heterosex with an infected person is 
BS>  dangerous.

     And it is also correct that it is 14 times more dangerous 
for a woman than a man and again, it is a homosexual or bisexual 
man.  

BS>  If you want to look for an origin of the disease, look to 
BS>  Africa.  If you want to look to a group, look to Africans.

     And if you are talking about this country or Europe, look to 
homosexuals and IV drug users.  The demographics of the disease 
are quite nation specific.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Lt. Frank Drebbin was in charge of Waco operations.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (132)
To:      All                                    28 Oct 94 19:52:00
Subject: AN HONEST STATEMENT                    

                        "This Year Will Go Down In History.
         For The First Time, A Civilized Nation Has Full Gun Registration!
               Our Streets Will Be Safer, Our Police More Efficient,
                And The World Will Follow Our Lead Into The Future!"
                                      Clinton
                                        1993


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * "Dr. Gruber, get a life."  Dr. Herbert West

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (143)
To:      Jim Higgins                            28 Oct 94 21:28:00
Subject: ARMED MARCH                            

JH>  You aren't missing anything.  No party has cornered the 
JH>  market on stupid candidate choices, but one would hope the 
JH>  "new" guy on the block (Libertarians) would be more 
JH>  careful.  I suppose this isn't possible when any asshole can 
JH>  run and claim to be of any affiliation he/she chooses no 
JH>  matter how mortified that party's central committee (or 
JH>  whatever it may be called) may be.

     I will agree that political parties should be made illegal.  
Beyond that I have no interest in one over the other, rather the 
candidate they front.

JH>  One would think that Stern was coached that he would have 
JH>  to reveal his personal finances...  objection to doing so 
JH>  being his stated reason for bailing out.  And even if not 
JH>  coached, doesn't *EVERY* dumbf*ck know about the financial 
JH>  disclosure rules???!!!  Jeez!

     I would have thought he had more balls than that.  The 
Constitution is clearly silent on who can can be elected to 
office save citizenship and age.  Had there been an intention to 
apply any other criteria then it would have been easy to state.  

     In other words I see no reason for him or anyone to abide by 
any such law as it is not a power granted to the government.  
Perhaps it is in the NY State constitution but I doubt it.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Bureau of Firearms, Alcohol, Religion and Tobacco

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (144)
To:      Willie Martin                          28 Oct 94 21:41:00
Subject: ASSAULT ON CHRISTIANITY                

WM>     The booklet is concerned with the heavy attacks being 
WM>  made upon religion in America, especially Christianity, and 
WM>  documents some of the court cases.  As most Christians know, 
WM>  or should know, the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) 
WM>  and People for the American Way are heavily involved in 
WM>  Christian bashing.
WM> 
WM>     For example, the ACLU claims that the religious right is 
WM>  working to destroy our civil liberties (page 10).  Nothing 
WM>  could be further from the truth.  And People for the 
WM>  American Way (a euphemism designed to fool the public) 
WM>  Action Fund advertises itself as "Your Voice Against 
WM>  Intolerance." (Page 10).  Often, these leftist organizations 
WM>  accuse their opposition of that which they are guilty.  They 
WM>  seem conscienceless and too frequently distort the truth 
WM>  mercilessly.

     You could make a better case on the Hassidic claim they will 
have to "smell" cheeseburgers being prepared while Fundies must 
actually look at abortion clinics.  The press coverage difference 
is endless.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * FOIA?  We don't need no stinking FOIA!

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (145)
To:      All                                    28 Oct 94 22:58:00
Subject: FUNDAMENTALIST WHAT?   01              

                       Christian Bashing?
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/29>

     Christians, particularly the fundamentalist types, are
constantly claiming they are under attack.  There are two
questions involved, are they really under attack? and do they
deserve to be under attack?
     To the first we have to determine what is meant by attack.
Certainly we can hold the present administration is on the
offensive against them when one of the highest appointed
officials "preaches" it is time for them to give up a central
tenet of their faith which Dr. Elders characterizes as a "love
affair with the fetus."  That is no different than referencing
Dr. Elders' love affair with murdering the innocent.
Inflammatory words are not needed.
     It is not only the administration.  The Keyries Joel
community lost it special school district and the reaction of the
media was quite against the finding.  When there is a protest
against the opening of a MacDonald's in a Hassidic neighborhood
because of some primitive superstition about milk and meat in the
same dish the media gives it sympathetic coverage, they can smell
cheeseburgers a mile away. Of course no one questions that it is
not in their religion.
     The media and the administration feel quite free to judge
Christian religions.  More generally they feel free to judge any
religion they judge to be fundamentalist.  This includes
fundamentalist Moslems.
     Strangely this never includes the most primitive and
fundamentalist religion of them all, Judaism.  Be that as it may
it is clear there is a public willingness to condemn forms of
public expression of religion and not others.
     The next question is, do they deserve it?  On one hand one
can say, yes, but in so doing one has granted some person, group
or agency the power to judge what a group deserves.  But if one
says no then there is a question of letting any religious belief
transformed into action pass as acceptable.
     And there is the point, it is not the belief but the action
arising from the belief.  Believe what you want but do not put
the belief into action.  But as all religious thinkers have held
in one form or another, belief without action is meaningless.
     And thus religion confronts today's world.  The objections
to fundamentalists are not in their beliefs but in their actions.
They oppose abortion and perhaps even gambling, sex and dancing
for all we know.  That they would "dare" to take political
actions based upon those beliefs is what singles them out for
attack.
     Yet we do not see this on the other side.  Like it or not
the American Civil Liberties Union was effectively founded by
Jews with the purpose of removing the Christian heritage from the
US.  That may or may not be a good cause and is certainly in
consonance with the thinking of Thomas Jefferson.  But it was in
fact an overt action taken upon the basis of religion.
     So if one religious viewpoint "deserves" it do not they all?
And if not, why not?  Is there some place in the nation an
ultimate arbiter of acceptable actions for a religion?
     In the public mind it has been adjudged that Jerry Falwell
and Pat Robertson may not become rich but Billy Graham can live
like a king.  The only apparent difference is Dr. Graham does not
promote actions based upon belief.  And therefore he is not in
conflict with anyone's political agenda.
     Faith with and without actions is an interesting question to
fundamentalists in that they hold being born again merits
salvation as an act of faith but then do go on to promote actions
as a demonstration of that faith.
     This perceived duality of between belief and actions springs
from the solipsistic view.  Clearly I know I can believe
something and not act upon it but how do I know you can?  Or
rather if you do not act upon it how do I or does anyone know you
really believe what you say?
     As we can not get into each other's heads do we take each
other on faith or actions?  That is not a question I intend to
answer here.  Suffice to say we can believe Billy Graham because
he is harmless and distrust the fundamentalists because they
prove they act as they believe.
     There is and continues to be a different standard and the
term fundamentalists has become no better than a perjorative.
Consider "moslem fundamentalists" when referring to the Middle
East when the most enlightened of Middle Eastern Muslims makes an
Orthodox Jew look positively radical.
     It is time to talk of fundamentalist liberals in order to
put the perjorative back where it belongs.  These are liberals
who hold with the core beliefs without regard to any fact or
sense of reality that may inflict itself upon their benighted
. 
Continued in the next message...

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (146)
To:      Paul West                              28 Oct 94 23:05:00
Subject: CAPITOL 800 NUMBER                     

PW>  You are absolutely correct Roland and I hope people will 
PW>  continue to use these methods of telling our Congressmen 
PW>  how we feel.  I also feel the phone companies should 
PW>  provide toll free phone service to Washington D.C as a 
PW>  public service.

     That might make nice public relations but they nearly do.  
Get some FAX software and compose a one page letter and send it 
after midnight or on weekends.  It should be under 15 cents from 
any place in the continental US.  Certainly cheaper than a post 
card.  That way you do not get to be filter through the call 
taker and you get what they say they want, simple and to the 
point.  

     That some have not discovered 1 gig HDs on the receiving 
side and insist upon hard copy is their problem.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco!  Never again!  Vote Libertarian!

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (147)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           28 Oct 94 23:10:00
Subject: CAPITOL 800 NUMBER                     

LG>              I just called and got the answering machine 
LG>              (Saturday morning)
LG> 
LG>              and Ihave to agree...this is spooky....
LG> 
LG>              I was urged to call the FBI if I had something 
LG>              that needed immediate attention.
LG> 
LG>              Wonder what Reno is "cooking" up now?????????

     I wouldn't get too excited about this.  It has been in place 
for years.  I had a real "spy" case some ten years ago and knew 
who to call, the Cuban desk at State in this case.  They were 
able to get onto it much more quickly than the FBI every would 
have.  They knew him by alias and chuckled about "him again."  I 
would presume clumsy but I was told nothing.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 3.  Kill 'til no Fed breaths American air.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (148)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           28 Oct 94 23:14:00
Subject: CATHOLIC "ARMY"                        

KP> ->  This is the "intelligence" service you are talking about 
KP> ->  here  It is supposed to be equal or better than the KGB was 
KP> ->  and the CIA is.

KP>          How many attempts have there been in recent decades 
KP>  on the lives of the Pope and Cardinals? .....  THAT is 
KP>  reason enough!

     Why would Mussolini have tried it?  Pius XII armed the Swiss 
Guard with submachineguns for the duration.

KP> ->  I understand there is also uniformed troops that are armed 
KP> ->  with the most modern weapons.  They are there but not 
KP> ->  seen.

KP>          The Swiss Guard? They are the equivalent of the 
KP>  U.S.  "Secret Service." Their job is to be body guards to 
KP>  the Pope, Cardinals, and other church officials and 
KP>  buildings.  Uniforms are ceremonial.

     The weapons are available and as with all Swiss they are 
trained in their use.  There is simply no need to display them 
without provocation.

KP> -> My original point is why does a church need an army?
KP> -> I mean, it is not like the SALVATION ARMY..:)

KP>          For the same reasons the U.S.  needs an Army.  But in 
KP>  this case the "Army" is a body guard service.  You 
KP>  completely misrepresent it.

     However, it does present a first line of defense on the 
outside if needed.  It does not function exactly like the Secret 
Service.x


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * First thing we do, we arrest all the hostages.  FBI at Waco.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (149)
To:      Kenneth Weiss                          28 Oct 94 23:20:00
Subject: CATHOLIC "ARMY"                        

KW> ... Would Jesus wear a Rolex?

     Only a cheap imitation like the majority wear.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Children of Waco, I feel your pain.  Bill Clinton

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (150)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        28 Oct 94 23:23:00
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH'S AR 1/                   

BS>  The Babylonian story also says that a gloomy future awaits 
BS>  the dead.

     The gloomy future simply justifies the survival instinct.  
What the survival instinct justifies I have no idea.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Welcome to Masada, Texas.  Never again!

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (151)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           28 Oct 94 23:35:00
Subject: JAPAN NUKED                            

KP>          You are being too kind Linda.  We had just fought 
KP>  battles at Saipan, Leyte, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa with 
KP>  HORRENDOUS loss of life.  More than double that of Hiroshima 
KP>  and Nagasaki! DOUBLE! And the point is that almost a week 
KP>  passed between the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.  There 
KP>  were ABSOLUTELY NO offers to surrender.  And the Japanese 
KP>  surrender did NOT come till almost a WEEK after Nagasaki, 
KP>  and not until AFTER U.S.  bombers dropped the SAME warning 
KP>  leaflets on Tokyo around the EMporer's palace that they had 
KP>  in Hiroshima and Nagasaki did Japan FINALLY offer to 
KP>  surrender! And they were told that if they did not 
KP>  surrender that the Japanese race ould be EXTERMINATED! 
KP>  FINALLY Japan surrendered....  Under TRUMAN...........  Not 
KP>  Roosevelt who was LONG dead by the ear's end! Of course our 
KP>  revisionist thinks FDR was still around!Shows what accuract 
KP>  level he works on!

     As "Bull" Halsey said upon returning to Pearl Harbor after 
the attack, "When this is over the Japanese language will only be 
spoken in hell."  It was a common sentiment.  My father was in 
Hawaii after having taken Guadalcanal (the FIRST US offensive in 
WW II) and getting ready to invade Japan.  I had been conceived 
before then.  It matters to me.  

     Even though FDR did start the war in my mind, war is a 
matter of the gut and not of reason.  Japan could have checked 
FDR's move with an attack upon and occupation of Saipan or Guam 
rather than Pearl Harbor and not invited the third cut.  
     
     On the other hand, if they had caught the carriers dockside 
they would have won.  


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * All right, Koresh, make my day. -- Reno

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (152)
To:      Ben Robeck                             28 Oct 94 23:51:00
Subject: JAPAN NUKED                            

BR>  If all you are refering to is their treatment of prisoners 
BR>  of war, then maybe...

     That treatment was according to the code of those who 
surrender rather than be taken alive.  Next question.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 1.  Kill them before they burn you alive.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (166)
To:      All                                    29 Oct 94 16:57:00
Subject: NEWS YOU MAY HAVE MISS 01              

Washington Times

19 October 1994

     Trooper recalls Clinton seeking loan 'help'

     An Arkansas state trooper has told Whitewater investigators 
that during a chance 1986 meeting at the state Capitol he 
overheard Gov. Bill Clinton ask for "help" in arranging a 
questionable $300,000 Small Business Administration loan, federal 
law enforcement sources said.

     Although President Clinton has denied any knowledge of the 
April 1986 loan, Trooper L.D. Brown, a 14-year veteran who worked 
on the governor's security detail in the mid-1980s, told 
investigators Mr. Clinton questioned David L. Hale about the 
possibility of the loan during the impromptu meeting, the sources 
said.

===

     Rabbis for young couples to go on overseas junket to get 
married

...

     In Israel, where civil marriage does not exist, the right to 
marry Jews remains an official monopoly of Orthodox rabbinical 
courts.

...

     Most of these [500,000] new Israeli citizens are secular.  
And estimated 150,000 aren't even considered Jewish by the Halaka 
and cannot be married by rabbinical courts.  It's for these 
people the Er Lan, and dozens of other similar companies 
scattered around Israel have devised two solutions.

     "The most popular is the "Cyprus marriage."  For $1200 -- 
accommodations and air fair included -- the betrothed are sent to 
nearby Cyprus, where they are married within five days by a local 
judge.

...

     For those who can not easily leave the country, such as 
active duty soldiers or immigrants who owe money to the 
government [!], Er Lan's lawyers arrange a fully legal marriage 
license issued by the government of Paraguay.

===

20 October 1994

     Clinton implores Wilder to help Robb, may offer him Africa 
post

     In a White House meeting Tuesday, President Clinton urged 
former Virginia Gov. L. Douglas Wilder to help his arch-rival win 
that state's tight Senate race and discussed the prospect of Mr. 
Wilder accepting a "roving ambassadorship" in Africa, Democratic 
sources told the Washington Times.

...

     Sources at the White House and in Virginia said the 
Clinton-Wilder meeting was held at Mr. Wilder's request.  The 
20-minute session centered on his pending endorsement of Rm. Robb 
and his desire to be a roving ambassador in Africa, the sources 
said.

     "Doug would be receptive to that offer," said a high-ranking 
Virginia democrat who asked not to be named.  "That's what's on 
the table."

21 October 1994

     White House denies effort to silence trooper

     The White House yesterday denied it sought to influence the 
testimony of an Arkansas state trooper who says he heard Gov. 
Bill Clinton pressure the owner of a Little Rock lending agency 
for an improper federal loan.

. 
Continued in the next message...

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (184)
To:      Kim Rozell                             29 Oct 94 18:08:00
Subject: CIVILIANS AND ASSAUL                   

KR> JJ>MG> JJ>  Bert , I USE a .22 LR.  Thanks for posting this article
KR> JJ>MG> JJ>  that makes my point.  Of course mine isn't a Saturday night
KR> JJ>MG> JJ>  Special.

KR> JJ>MG>      Why don't you two stop up and assault me some time.

KR> JJ>Matt now YOU are starting to sound like Bobby Butt...:)

KR>  Matt: I like the .22LR myself.  Some people laugh when I 
KR>  pull out the old .177 air gun I have until they see what it 
KR>  can do.  It was made in Germany and can put a pelet through 
KR>  both sides of a steel garbage can at 15 paces, or one side 
KR>  and make a dent in the other at 50 paces.  It is one of the 
KR>  Compeition Air Guns that will push a pelet 1,100 feet per 
KR>  second.  It is big as a .30/06 and weights like one too.  
KR>  It uses the counter opposing pistons with a single pump of 
KR>  the arm lever.

     I have two of them, one that passed of Olympic grade 30 
years ago.

KR>  Most of your .22 Longs will travel at 1050 fps, while the 
KR>  LR will go 1,350 fps, so my .177 is close in power.  The 
KR>  .22 is a 5.5 mm while the .177 is 4.5 mm.  You still have 
KR>  the advantage of a larger grain projectile than I do as I 
KR>  use 7.7 grain and most .22s use at least 10 grain or 
KR>  better.

     However, my .45 auto handgun with +P loads does the same 
velocity with a 185gr JHP.  That is not even talking about what a 
rifle can do.  

KR>  I wonder if the new crime bill will denote more than 1,000 
KR>  air gun pelets as an arsenal? Would Two boxes of pelets 
KR>  make you a criminal? I read the "Anti Handgun Inc.'s" 
KR>  literature on how we should rid the world of all guns 
KR>  execpt for Swat police teams and military.  They even want 
KR>  to disarm the common police officer!  I guess that makes me 
KR>  an evil person for having a pelet gun and a BB pistol (Both 
KR>  are single shot).

     There has been only one exhaustive study of the killing 
power of handgun cartridges.  That was done by the US Army in 
deciding upon the .45 auto.  The findings were rather simple, the 
larger the caliber the better comes first and after that comes 
velocity.  These are true unless one hits bone and then all bets 
are off.  However, the larger caliber the more likely to hit 
bone so it even helps there.

     Beyond that there are records kept of one street shoots by 
the police.  You get the highest probability of a one shot 
incapacitation by following the caliber first and then velocity 
rule.  These are hardly scientific and there are plenty of 
exceptions for special rounds and not all that much evidence for 
most of them.  

     Nothing I have written should be taken as definitive, only 
as the place to start.

KR>  Pling!  What was that?....  Pling!...  George, did you feel 
KR>  something sting you? :-)

     Try for Janet Reno in the ass.  It is almost as big a target 
as Hitlary's.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Waco lesson 1.  Kill them before they burn you alive.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (188)
To:      All                                    29 Oct 94 20:03:00
Subject: SUPREME INDECISION                     

                       Supreme Indecision
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <10/29>

     Early in its history the Supreme Court of the United States
found it had a the power to declare laws null and void because
they were contrary to the Constitution.  This has come to be
accepted as a legitimate power.  However, that power is based
solely upon the comparison of a law (or other matter) against the
Constitution.
     The on-going debate has been between the strict and loose
construction.  The former holds the Constitution should be read
in light of what was meant at the time.  The latter holds it can
be interpreted in sort of a "what they would have said if they
lived today" mode.
     However there has become a common sense perception,
regardless of how widely disavowed, that the Supreme Court has
become political in nature.  That it has added a new criteria,
that of current public opinion as a criteria.  It is excused as
saying the Court watches the election returns.
     There is a minor problem with this.  If the court has any
criteria other than the Constitution, strict or loose, it has no
right to the power to declare laws unconstitutional.  Laws are
only internal to the Constitution and the powers the people have
delegated to the government and nothing more.
     People remain the supreme authority not only over all of
government but specifically of the Supreme Court.  The Supreme
Court is not a pantheon established on earth to be the ultimate
arbiter of the country.  It is rather a tool the people have
established within the government as one of three branches of
government to keep that government under control.
     That the Supreme Court may be political is a direct
violation of its intended function.  That function was not and is
not to determine the validity of laws based upon their party
affiliation but upon the Constitution as written not as
politically interpretated.
     When any group is set inviolate above the people the people
have the duty to overthrow it.  It is incumbent upon the people
to exercise their supreme authority over the government and
reject its findings.  There exists a constitutional mechanism for
such rejection.  Should that mechanism be found unusable because
the ballot box does not work then the people are still faced with
their duty.
     "The Supreme Court says" is a woeful tiger to be riding.  It
has no power other than what the people have given it.  That
power was to aid in restraining the other two branches as with
the Triumverate in ancient Rome.  But when two or more branches
conspire by means of party loyalty to determine the course of the
government then the people are required to perform their duty.
     We have had this kind of Supreme Court in this country since
it determined the interstate commerce clause meant a diner in the
middle of a state.  In so doing it declared the rest of the
Constitution superfluous.  By such construction everything can in
some way affect interstate commerce and is thus open to the
control of government whether or not it was ever delegated to the
government.
     It is difficult to argue the Supreme Court is impartial when
it finds for abortion as a right of privacy between doctor and
patient and can not find financial records as a matter of
personal papers as specifically stated in the 4th amendment to be
safe from the Internal Revenue Service.  This is not to pick nits
here, I am quite in favor of privacy in all matters including
abortion.  I use it to point out how the same issue can divide
us, the people.
     Put politics aside.  Will you accept the termination of the
IRS in exchange for abortion on demand?  Will you put aside your
political differences in order to get the government out of our
lives?  Completely, forever!
     That is what I am asking.  If we do not have a united front,
if we let partisan politics divide us to the benefit of the
politicians, we are lost.  It will be us against them until the
end of time or of this country which ever comes first.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

    P.O. Box 82541, Tampa, Florida, 33682-2541, 813-969-0362

                  [note new address and phone]



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * My incoming messages have the right of way.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»

From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (190)
To:      All                                    29 Oct 94 20:51:00
Subject: 'THE BELL CURVE'                       

RF> MG>RF>      According to the TV reports, this is one book that
RF>   >RF>   can't be ignored, and won't go away.

RF> MG>     So the book will be ignored and the authors attacked as
RF>   >bigots.

RF>      I figure controversy at least means people will be 
RF>   forced to think more about the issue.  I bet plenty of 
RF>   people will now come out of the woodwork and write books 
RF>   on race and intelligence.  Even though they know the 
RF>   unwashed masses will riot over them.  ;-)

RF>     It's only necessary to be approved by some people one respects.

     I have no problem with the results but looking at the real 
bell curve I am not impressed with the difference.

     Consider a person will "brag" about 110 but a person with 90 
will be considered inferior.  That is absolute garbage to any 
statistics I am aware of.  Take two different tests and try to 
score the same very small difference equivalent no matter where 
you are on the curve.  

     Granted it is 20 points around the norm but it might be five 
points around the 2nd Standard Deviation and 2 points around the 
3rd IF AND ONLY IF such accuracy were possible.  

     And let me get down and dirty here and talk about the people 
who might not be on this conference.  They have a solid 100 IQ 
+/- one standard deviation.  They are the "majority."  Do you 
really think they are bright enough to discern a few trivial 
points among those they deal with?  

     Getting real is hardly the question here.  

     We have this image of IQ that holds "all of our children are 
above average."  101 is great 99 is to be avoided.  

     What is clearly missing is the idea of mental maturity.  
Unless memory is attached to IQ (I see a way it can be but I know 
of no studies) experience can replace reasoning any day.  But 
with adults it is fixed?  That is certainly not an established 
point, witness (literally) Colonel Sander of KFC fame.  

     Then comes the question of populations vice individuals.  
That is not an easy one to address but as "success" is one of the 
point of this book then we need to discuss just what success 
means.  I have known several successful cab drivers I would 
consider dumber than shit.  I also knew a cab driver who was a 
Colonel (OK, he exaggerated but ...) in the Iranian Army and a 
helo driver.  Who is successful?  
     
     Frankly I do not know.  Which brings it back to the 
political.  Success or failure appears to be defined by who is on 
the welfare dole.  It could just as easily and in the same 
political context be viewed as who is smart enough to exploit the 
welfare system.  So what is intelligence?

     It is not a clear issue no matter how it is presented.  I 
just may have to read the book if it continues to be of such 
interest.  

     I do have to agree with one response of the remaining living 
author, to paraphrase, 

     'if I came back a hundred years from now would I find 
inheritance a factor?  Yes.  A significant factor?  Probably 
not.'


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Visit the Hannibal Lechter Dinner Theater.

--- WILDMAIL!/WC v4.10h
 * Origin: DOC'S PLACE IN THE GHETTO, NC3603!  (1:3603/141.0)
SEEN-BY: 250/99 201 224 246 301 401 470 501 601 701 801 396/1 3603/141 270
SEEN-BY: 3603/20020 20050 20060 3615/50 51


«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»«■»


Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.