The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_controv_9409


 R_9409 
+++ r_940904 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War               

               Welfare and the End of the Cold War
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     We are presented with an opportunity here.  All over the
country the military is shutting down bases.  And all over the
country the cost of welfare is increasing.
     This is a simple solution.  Anyone one wanting support from
the government moves onto one of those bases.  If they do not
then they get no support.  The bases have every facility needed
for living even if in a rather spartan style.
     Barracks living is not all that bad.  The slight
modifications would be for small children, beds and bathing
facilities and such.  There are mess facilities, medical
facilities, everything needed for a self contained community.
     And on the plus side, no food stamp payments, no welfare
payments, perhaps a small amount for personal needs but that
could be earned by work to maintain the facilities.  As these
would not be a generally criminal class only a modest number of
staff and policing personnel would be required.
     Of course this would not apply to the elderly or the sickly,
those truly incapacitated who need more than what a military base
would be equipped to handle.
     What are the objections?  Only that they would be moved out
of the city.  They would certainly have clean facilities.
Cleaning would earn the spending money.  The work would be within
walking distance and always enough for everyone.  It would be a
safe environment.  Personal possessions could certainly be
warehoused on the base.  As for moving them to the base that
would be a bus trip for the people and some workers from the base
to pack any personal possessions into an army truck and drive it
to the base storage facility.
     Everyone wins all around.
     Of course there would have to be some degree of discipline
and the penalty would be being kicked off base and losing all
support.  Leaving base and having visitors would not be a problem
save that there would be body searches to prevent alcohol and
drugs being introduced onto the base.  There would be no problem
with leaving clubs open to sell drinks as people could be shut
off before becoming drunk.
     So there would be a safe and drug free environment.  There
are plenty of recreation facilities.  Would this not save
billions and at the same time give these people what they need?
In many cases more than they have now.
     If this were done qualifications could be relaxed.  People
could show up at the welfare office ready to move to the base.
No more hassles over who is qualified or who is not getting what
they need.
     Of course if they want to keep their freedom then their
freedom there is a clear way to do it, work.  If they can not
find work then they do have an option that keeps them well fed
and healthy.
     They can be trained for work on the base.  It could be part
of the discipline requirements.  And who takes care of the kids?
They do, train and work in shifts while they pool resources to
take care of each other's children.
     I see it as a win win situation.  A few bugs to work out
perhaps but overall everyone gets what they want and need.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
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--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (200)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail                           

                          Another Nail
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     Soon Clinton is going to put another nail in the coffin of
the Bill of Right by signing the Crime Bill with the falsely
claimed assault weapons ban.  Earlier this year it became
official Clinton Administration policy to circumvent the 4th
amendment.  Recently it came to light that it was official policy
to circumvent the 1st amendment.  And now the official attack
upon the 2nd amendment.
     In the attacks upon the 1st and 4th is was Housing and Urban
Development leading the way.  In the case of the 2nd it is the
entire US Congress.
     Let us review the Constitution.  Article 1, Section 8
and Article 2, section 2, clearly delineate the only powers
delegated to the US government.  The first ten amendments were
specifically designed to limited the federal government's powers.
The 10th is explicit in this regard.
     Yet we have an attack upon freedom of assembly and speech
and redress of grievance when HUD threatens fines and prison
terms for objecting to its plans for its socially noble housing
projects.  It further has a policy of doing warrantless searches
despite the explicit prohibition of searches without a warrant.
And finally we have the infringement of the right right to keep
and bear arms in the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill.
     If no one has been paying attention this has all occurred in
the last eight months.  There are at least 29 months left for
this Administration to do more of the same.
     This is not merely a 2nd Amendment issue.  This is an all
out assault upon the Bill of Rights.  It is an effort to
eliminate the prohibitions that were places upon the US
Government two centuries ago.
     I do not see an organized conspiracy or a plan.  I see
do-gooders without the slightest self restraint who will do
whatever they see they can get away without without regard to any
principle or law.  It is not a question of what they can do
within the system.  It is a matter of what they can get away with
regardless of the system.
     And in this matter it is completely without regard to the
Constitution they took and oath to uphold and defend.  That lack
of regard is in itself an impeachable offense.
     While they act without such regard they have no moral
authority to the power they would wield.  They have only the
legal authority we permit them by our passivity.  It is a far
greater moral act to resist than to submit of course the
penalties for failure are equally greater.
     Those who have been or are in the military or some other
form of federal service have all taken an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  There
was no time limit on that oath.  Submission to illegitimate
authority is not standing by that oath.
     Remember there were also words in that oath "against all
enemies foreign and domestic."  A government that has policies to
circumvent the constitution is a domestic enemy of that
constitution.  By the definition given in the Constitution it is
not treason although there have been many more than two witnesses
to each act.
     We are in need of a word for this.  Sedition perhaps.
Perhaps we need a new word but they are enemies of the
Constitution and many of us have an oath to defend the
Constitution against them.
     There risks involved will be great.  The government will not
stand for obstruction and the more deliberate its attack on the
Constitution the more likely a violent response to those who
would preserve the Constitution.
     But in the absence of efforts to preserve the Constitution
the enemies of it will certainly increase the level of attacks
upon it.  Success without opposition will lead to greater attacks
by its enemies.  The longer resistance is put off the sooner the
larger attacks will continue.
     I have been accused of fomenting.  In fact I am only
recounting what will happen.  The next year will bring greater
attacks upon out Constitution.  The time for a final stand is
approaching faster than we would ever have dreamed.  Gun laws,
1934, 1968, 1986, 1994.  I do not think it is my imagination they
are coming more frequently and on lesser pretexts.  I have
documented the loss of the 4th over some 20 years in another
article.  This year we have the first full scale attack upon the
1st.
     I have no idea what will be next other than Brady II is
coming.  I am certain what does come will be much worse.  Pick an
amendment.  Expect none to be safe.  Expect the 2nd to be the
least of the attacks.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (231)
To:      All                                     1 Sep 94 14:22:00
Subject: Prohibition v banning                  

                   Prohibition vice Regulation
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/1>

     The government claims there is a legal distinction between
prohibition and regulation.  Strangely we can find not practical
difference between the two.
     Prohibition, as in alcoholic beverages, required a
constitutional amendment to delegate a new power to the federal
government.  Regulation, what that is much different, it is under
the interstate commerce clause and the tariff clause and has
always been there.  Without nothing it was rather strange our
grandparents did not notice they did not need an amendment to ban
alcoholic beverages, it is certainly interesting to note an even
greater prohibition can be accomplished by calling it regulation
rather than prohibition.
     Consider the government does not ban drugs, it regulates
them.  While drugs containing alcohol, elixers, were never
prohibited the chances of a doctor prescribing marijuana to keep
a glaucoma patient from going blind or to control nausea under
chemotherapy are slim and none.
     The government is not banning guns, it is regulating some
guns.  The government does not ban discrimination, it regulates
discrimination.  The government regulates all drugs even those
determined not to be drugs.
     Where did the government or anyone get the idea the federal
government we delegated this power to the government?  It is
certainly not in the US Constitution and if not there it was not
delegated.  If it was not delegated the federal government has no
such power, period, the weaseling of the interstate commerce
clause not withstanding.  That is the argument that if 1/100 of
1% of an activity goes across state lines then 100% of it can be
regulated.
     But then, that is the reason discrimination is regulated.
The government has determined the legal minorities in this
country.  If you have ever filled out a form that asks you to
"check your racial status" the choices you have are the only
legal choices.  Thus you can be either an Indian living in the
United States or you can be an Hispanic.  You can not be an
Indian living in Mexico.
     In fact it is illegal for the government to give a medical
research grant to study indians with Hispanic surnames and that
would be creating an unregulated class of minority.  When the
government regulates something it regulates reality at the same
time.
     Consider drugs that regulators determine have no medical use
when drugs are by definition those substances which have medical
use.  I am not attempting to argue the definition of the word
drug.  I am pointing out the Food and Drug Administration was
established to regulate the purity and claims of drugs for use in
medicine.
     If a substance has no medical utility then it is not a drug
within the meaning of the charter of the FDA.  Yet the FDA
regulates substances which are not within the definition by its
own charter.  Of course this begs the entire question of the
power of the government to regulate food and drugs in any manner
whatsoever.  It is not a delegated power in the Constitution.
     Now it may be a good idea for the federal government to do
such regulation and that is what the amendment process of the
constitution was designed to do, add additional delegations to
the federal government.
     Here is another one for those of us who started driving
pre-Nixon.  Whence came the power to regulate highway speed?
Whence came the power to determine the daylight saving time zone
of the states?  Cincinnati used to keep Central Daylight Time
until the law required states to be uniform.  Now Greater
Cincinnati Airport in Kentucky keeps Ohio time rather than
Kentucky time.
     Trivial?  Of course.  Annoying?  Most definitely.  A
usurpation of undelegated power?  Unquestionably.
     Regulating the type of guns?  "We are not taking your guns
away.  We are just making it harder to get decent defense
weapons.  Consider the ban on Saturday Night Specials in 1968
that banned cheap guns so the poor victims lost the means of
defense.  After all Congressmen with their armed bodyguards can
not find the slightest reason for people to defend themselves.
If they are in danger they can always hire bodyguards.
     But do not forget, they are not banning the means of self
defense, they are only regulating it.  They are only requiring
that the victim have less effective weapons than attackers,
plural.  It is only regulation.  Self defense is not being banned
yet.
     Were this to be a larger article I could provide dozens more
examples of regulation vice banning where there is no apparent
difference save in the legal wording.  We are back to walks,
talks, and waddles like a duck it is still a ban and in no way a
"regulation" loophole.
     When we face regulation that is the same as a ban it is
unconstitutional as there is no difference.  And as such it is a
usurpation of a power not delegated.  Those who enforce it have
no right to do so and are violating their oath of office.
     Resistance to such usurped authority is in consonance with
an oath of office.  Submitting to it is not.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
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SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2




+++ r_940904 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War               

               Welfare and the End of the Cold War
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     We are presented with an opportunity here.  All over the
country the military is shutting down bases.  And all over the
country the cost of welfare is increasing.
     This is a simple solution.  Anyone one wanting support from
the government moves onto one of those bases.  If they do not
then they get no support.  The bases have every facility needed
for living even if in a rather spartan style.
     Barracks living is not all that bad.  The slight
modifications would be for small children, beds and bathing
facilities and such.  There are mess facilities, medical
facilities, everything needed for a self contained community.
     And on the plus side, no food stamp payments, no welfare
payments, perhaps a small amount for personal needs but that
could be earned by work to maintain the facilities.  As these
would not be a generally criminal class only a modest number of
staff and policing personnel would be required.
     Of course this would not apply to the elderly or the sickly,
those truly incapacitated who need more than what a military base
would be equipped to handle.
     What are the objections?  Only that they would be moved out
of the city.  They would certainly have clean facilities.
Cleaning would earn the spending money.  The work would be within
walking distance and always enough for everyone.  It would be a
safe environment.  Personal possessions could certainly be
warehoused on the base.  As for moving them to the base that
would be a bus trip for the people and some workers from the base
to pack any personal possessions into an army truck and drive it
to the base storage facility.
     Everyone wins all around.
     Of course there would have to be some degree of discipline
and the penalty would be being kicked off base and losing all
support.  Leaving base and having visitors would not be a problem
save that there would be body searches to prevent alcohol and
drugs being introduced onto the base.  There would be no problem
with leaving clubs open to sell drinks as people could be shut
off before becoming drunk.
     So there would be a safe and drug free environment.  There
are plenty of recreation facilities.  Would this not save
billions and at the same time give these people what they need?
In many cases more than they have now.
     If this were done qualifications could be relaxed.  People
could show up at the welfare office ready to move to the base.
No more hassles over who is qualified or who is not getting what
they need.
     Of course if they want to keep their freedom then their
freedom there is a clear way to do it, work.  If they can not
find work then they do have an option that keeps them well fed
and healthy.
     They can be trained for work on the base.  It could be part
of the discipline requirements.  And who takes care of the kids?
They do, train and work in shifts while they pool resources to
take care of each other's children.
     I see it as a win win situation.  A few bugs to work out
perhaps but overall everyone gets what they want and need.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  RoboMail -- The next generation QWK compatible reader!
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (200)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail                           

                          Another Nail
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     Soon Clinton is going to put another nail in the coffin of
the Bill of Right by signing the Crime Bill with the falsely
claimed assault weapons ban.  Earlier this year it became
official Clinton Administration policy to circumvent the 4th
amendment.  Recently it came to light that it was official policy
to circumvent the 1st amendment.  And now the official attack
upon the 2nd amendment.
     In the attacks upon the 1st and 4th is was Housing and Urban
Development leading the way.  In the case of the 2nd it is the
entire US Congress.
     Let us review the Constitution.  Article 1, Section 8
and Article 2, section 2, clearly delineate the only powers
delegated to the US government.  The first ten amendments were
specifically designed to limited the federal government's powers.
The 10th is explicit in this regard.
     Yet we have an attack upon freedom of assembly and speech
and redress of grievance when HUD threatens fines and prison
terms for objecting to its plans for its socially noble housing
projects.  It further has a policy of doing warrantless searches
despite the explicit prohibition of searches without a warrant.
And finally we have the infringement of the right right to keep
and bear arms in the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill.
     If no one has been paying attention this has all occurred in
the last eight months.  There are at least 29 months left for
this Administration to do more of the same.
     This is not merely a 2nd Amendment issue.  This is an all
out assault upon the Bill of Rights.  It is an effort to
eliminate the prohibitions that were places upon the US
Government two centuries ago.
     I do not see an organized conspiracy or a plan.  I see
do-gooders without the slightest self restraint who will do
whatever they see they can get away without without regard to any
principle or law.  It is not a question of what they can do
within the system.  It is a matter of what they can get away with
regardless of the system.
     And in this matter it is completely without regard to the
Constitution they took and oath to uphold and defend.  That lack
of regard is in itself an impeachable offense.
     While they act without such regard they have no moral
authority to the power they would wield.  They have only the
legal authority we permit them by our passivity.  It is a far
greater moral act to resist than to submit of course the
penalties for failure are equally greater.
     Those who have been or are in the military or some other
form of federal service have all taken an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  There
was no time limit on that oath.  Submission to illegitimate
authority is not standing by that oath.
     Remember there were also words in that oath "against all
enemies foreign and domestic."  A government that has policies to
circumvent the constitution is a domestic enemy of that
constitution.  By the definition given in the Constitution it is
not treason although there have been many more than two witnesses
to each act.
     We are in need of a word for this.  Sedition perhaps.
Perhaps we need a new word but they are enemies of the
Constitution and many of us have an oath to defend the
Constitution against them.
     There risks involved will be great.  The government will not
stand for obstruction and the more deliberate its attack on the
Constitution the more likely a violent response to those who
would preserve the Constitution.
     But in the absence of efforts to preserve the Constitution
the enemies of it will certainly increase the level of attacks
upon it.  Success without opposition will lead to greater attacks
by its enemies.  The longer resistance is put off the sooner the
larger attacks will continue.
     I have been accused of fomenting.  In fact I am only
recounting what will happen.  The next year will bring greater
attacks upon out Constitution.  The time for a final stand is
approaching faster than we would ever have dreamed.  Gun laws,
1934, 1968, 1986, 1994.  I do not think it is my imagination they
are coming more frequently and on lesser pretexts.  I have
documented the loss of the 4th over some 20 years in another
article.  This year we have the first full scale attack upon the
1st.
     I have no idea what will be next other than Brady II is
coming.  I am certain what does come will be much worse.  Pick an
amendment.  Expect none to be safe.  Expect the 2nd to be the
least of the attacks.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (231)
To:      All                                     1 Sep 94 14:22:00
Subject: Prohibition v banning                  

                   Prohibition vice Regulation
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/1>

     The government claims there is a legal distinction between
prohibition and regulation.  Strangely we can find not practical
difference between the two.
     Prohibition, as in alcoholic beverages, required a
constitutional amendment to delegate a new power to the federal
government.  Regulation, what that is much different, it is under
the interstate commerce clause and the tariff clause and has
always been there.  Without nothing it was rather strange our
grandparents did not notice they did not need an amendment to ban
alcoholic beverages, it is certainly interesting to note an even
greater prohibition can be accomplished by calling it regulation
rather than prohibition.
     Consider the government does not ban drugs, it regulates
them.  While drugs containing alcohol, elixers, were never
prohibited the chances of a doctor prescribing marijuana to keep
a glaucoma patient from going blind or to control nausea under
chemotherapy are slim and none.
     The government is not banning guns, it is regulating some
guns.  The government does not ban discrimination, it regulates
discrimination.  The government regulates all drugs even those
determined not to be drugs.
     Where did the government or anyone get the idea the federal
government we delegated this power to the government?  It is
certainly not in the US Constitution and if not there it was not
delegated.  If it was not delegated the federal government has no
such power, period, the weaseling of the interstate commerce
clause not withstanding.  That is the argument that if 1/100 of
1% of an activity goes across state lines then 100% of it can be
regulated.
     But then, that is the reason discrimination is regulated.
The government has determined the legal minorities in this
country.  If you have ever filled out a form that asks you to
"check your racial status" the choices you have are the only
legal choices.  Thus you can be either an Indian living in the
United States or you can be an Hispanic.  You can not be an
Indian living in Mexico.
     In fact it is illegal for the government to give a medical
research grant to study indians with Hispanic surnames and that
would be creating an unregulated class of minority.  When the
government regulates something it regulates reality at the same
time.
     Consider drugs that regulators determine have no medical use
when drugs are by definition those substances which have medical
use.  I am not attempting to argue the definition of the word
drug.  I am pointing out the Food and Drug Administration was
established to regulate the purity and claims of drugs for use in
medicine.
     If a substance has no medical utility then it is not a drug
within the meaning of the charter of the FDA.  Yet the FDA
regulates substances which are not within the definition by its
own charter.  Of course this begs the entire question of the
power of the government to regulate food and drugs in any manner
whatsoever.  It is not a delegated power in the Constitution.
     Now it may be a good idea for the federal government to do
such regulation and that is what the amendment process of the
constitution was designed to do, add additional delegations to
the federal government.
     Here is another one for those of us who started driving
pre-Nixon.  Whence came the power to regulate highway speed?
Whence came the power to determine the daylight saving time zone
of the states?  Cincinnati used to keep Central Daylight Time
until the law required states to be uniform.  Now Greater
Cincinnati Airport in Kentucky keeps Ohio time rather than
Kentucky time.
     Trivial?  Of course.  Annoying?  Most definitely.  A
usurpation of undelegated power?  Unquestionably.
     Regulating the type of guns?  "We are not taking your guns
away.  We are just making it harder to get decent defense
weapons.  Consider the ban on Saturday Night Specials in 1968
that banned cheap guns so the poor victims lost the means of
defense.  After all Congressmen with their armed bodyguards can
not find the slightest reason for people to defend themselves.
If they are in danger they can always hire bodyguards.
     But do not forget, they are not banning the means of self
defense, they are only regulating it.  They are only requiring
that the victim have less effective weapons than attackers,
plural.  It is only regulation.  Self defense is not being banned
yet.
     Were this to be a larger article I could provide dozens more
examples of regulation vice banning where there is no apparent
difference save in the legal wording.  We are back to walks,
talks, and waddles like a duck it is still a ban and in no way a
"regulation" loophole.
     When we face regulation that is the same as a ban it is
unconstitutional as there is no difference.  And as such it is a
usurpation of a power not delegated.  Those who enforce it have
no right to do so and are violating their oath of office.
     Resistance to such usurped authority is in consonance with
an oath of office.  Submitting to it is not.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 20030 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3636/15 3654/5 3659/2




+++ r_940904 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 19:07:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold War               

               Welfare and the End of the Cold War
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     We are presented with an opportunity here.  All over the
country the military is shutting down bases.  And all over the
country the cost of welfare is increasing.
     This is a simple solution.  Anyone one wanting support from
the government moves onto one of those bases.  If they do not
then they get no support.  The bases have every facility needed
for living even if in a rather spartan style.
     Barracks living is not all that bad.  The slight
modifications would be for small children, beds and bathing
facilities and such.  There are mess facilities, medical
facilities, everything needed for a self contained community.
     And on the plus side, no food stamp payments, no welfare
payments, perhaps a small amount for personal needs but that
could be earned by work to maintain the facilities.  As these
would not be a generally criminal class only a modest number of
staff and policing personnel would be required.
     Of course this would not apply to the elderly or the sickly,
those truly incapacitated who need more than what a military base
would be equipped to handle.
     What are the objections?  Only that they would be moved out
of the city.  They would certainly have clean facilities.
Cleaning would earn the spending money.  The work would be within
walking distance and always enough for everyone.  It would be a
safe environment.  Personal possessions could certainly be
warehoused on the base.  As for moving them to the base that
would be a bus trip for the people and some workers from the base
to pack any personal possessions into an army truck and drive it
to the base storage facility.
     Everyone wins all around.
     Of course there would have to be some degree of discipline
and the penalty would be being kicked off base and losing all
support.  Leaving base and having visitors would not be a problem
save that there would be body searches to prevent alcohol and
drugs being introduced onto the base.  There would be no problem
with leaving clubs open to sell drinks as people could be shut
off before becoming drunk.
     So there would be a safe and drug free environment.  There
are plenty of recreation facilities.  Would this not save
billions and at the same time give these people what they need?
In many cases more than they have now.
     If this were done qualifications could be relaxed.  People
could show up at the welfare office ready to move to the base.
No more hassles over who is qualified or who is not getting what
they need.
     Of course if they want to keep their freedom then their
freedom there is a clear way to do it, work.  If they can not
find work then they do have an option that keeps them well fed
and healthy.
     They can be trained for work on the base.  It could be part
of the discipline requirements.  And who takes care of the kids?
They do, train and work in shifts while they pool resources to
take care of each other's children.
     I see it as a win win situation.  A few bugs to work out
perhaps but overall everyone gets what they want and need.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (200)
To:      All                                    30 Aug 94 23:32:10
Subject: Another Nail                           

                          Another Nail
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>

     Soon Clinton is going to put another nail in the coffin of
the Bill of Right by signing the Crime Bill with the falsely
claimed assault weapons ban.  Earlier this year it became
official Clinton Administration policy to circumvent the 4th
amendment.  Recently it came to light that it was official policy
to circumvent the 1st amendment.  And now the official attack
upon the 2nd amendment.
     In the attacks upon the 1st and 4th is was Housing and Urban
Development leading the way.  In the case of the 2nd it is the
entire US Congress.
     Let us review the Constitution.  Article 1, Section 8
and Article 2, section 2, clearly delineate the only powers
delegated to the US government.  The first ten amendments were
specifically designed to limited the federal government's powers.
The 10th is explicit in this regard.
     Yet we have an attack upon freedom of assembly and speech
and redress of grievance when HUD threatens fines and prison
terms for objecting to its plans for its socially noble housing
projects.  It further has a policy of doing warrantless searches
despite the explicit prohibition of searches without a warrant.
And finally we have the infringement of the right right to keep
and bear arms in the Crime Bill and the Brady Bill.
     If no one has been paying attention this has all occurred in
the last eight months.  There are at least 29 months left for
this Administration to do more of the same.
     This is not merely a 2nd Amendment issue.  This is an all
out assault upon the Bill of Rights.  It is an effort to
eliminate the prohibitions that were places upon the US
Government two centuries ago.
     I do not see an organized conspiracy or a plan.  I see
do-gooders without the slightest self restraint who will do
whatever they see they can get away without without regard to any
principle or law.  It is not a question of what they can do
within the system.  It is a matter of what they can get away with
regardless of the system.
     And in this matter it is completely without regard to the
Constitution they took and oath to uphold and defend.  That lack
of regard is in itself an impeachable offense.
     While they act without such regard they have no moral
authority to the power they would wield.  They have only the
legal authority we permit them by our passivity.  It is a far
greater moral act to resist than to submit of course the
penalties for failure are equally greater.
     Those who have been or are in the military or some other
form of federal service have all taken an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution of the United States of America.  There
was no time limit on that oath.  Submission to illegitimate
authority is not standing by that oath.
     Remember there were also words in that oath "against all
enemies foreign and domestic."  A government that has policies to
circumvent the constitution is a domestic enemy of that
constitution.  By the definition given in the Constitution it is
not treason although there have been many more than two witnesses
to each act.
     We are in need of a word for this.  Sedition perhaps.
Perhaps we need a new word but they are enemies of the
Constitution and many of us have an oath to defend the
Constitution against them.
     There risks involved will be great.  The government will not
stand for obstruction and the more deliberate its attack on the
Constitution the more likely a violent response to those who
would preserve the Constitution.
     But in the absence of efforts to preserve the Constitution
the enemies of it will certainly increase the level of attacks
upon it.  Success without opposition will lead to greater attacks
by its enemies.  The longer resistance is put off the sooner the
larger attacks will continue.
     I have been accused of fomenting.  In fact I am only
recounting what will happen.  The next year will bring greater
attacks upon out Constitution.  The time for a final stand is
approaching faster than we would ever have dreamed.  Gun laws,
1934, 1968, 1986, 1994.  I do not think it is my imagination they
are coming more frequently and on lesser pretexts.  I have
documented the loss of the 4th over some 20 years in another
article.  This year we have the first full scale attack upon the
1st.
     I have no idea what will be next other than Brady II is
coming.  I am certain what does come will be much worse.  Pick an
amendment.  Expect none to be safe.  Expect the 2nd to be the
least of the attacks.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (231)
To:      All                                     1 Sep 94 14:22:00
Subject: Prohibition v banning                  

                   Prohibition vice Regulation
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/1>

     The government claims there is a legal distinction between
prohibition and regulation.  Strangely we can find not practical
difference between the two.
     Prohibition, as in alcoholic beverages, required a
constitutional amendment to delegate a new power to the federal
government.  Regulation, what that is much different, it is under
the interstate commerce clause and the tariff clause and has
always been there.  Without nothing it was rather strange our
grandparents did not notice they did not need an amendment to ban
alcoholic beverages, it is certainly interesting to note an even
greater prohibition can be accomplished by calling it regulation
rather than prohibition.
     Consider the government does not ban drugs, it regulates
them.  While drugs containing alcohol, elixers, were never
prohibited the chances of a doctor prescribing marijuana to keep
a glaucoma patient from going blind or to control nausea under
chemotherapy are slim and none.
     The government is not banning guns, it is regulating some
guns.  The government does not ban discrimination, it regulates
discrimination.  The government regulates all drugs even those
determined not to be drugs.
     Where did the government or anyone get the idea the federal
government we delegated this power to the government?  It is
certainly not in the US Constitution and if not there it was not
delegated.  If it was not delegated the federal government has no
such power, period, the weaseling of the interstate commerce
clause not withstanding.  That is the argument that if 1/100 of
1% of an activity goes across state lines then 100% of it can be
regulated.
     But then, that is the reason discrimination is regulated.
The government has determined the legal minorities in this
country.  If you have ever filled out a form that asks you to
"check your racial status" the choices you have are the only
legal choices.  Thus you can be either an Indian living in the
United States or you can be an Hispanic.  You can not be an
Indian living in Mexico.
     In fact it is illegal for the government to give a medical
research grant to study indians with Hispanic surnames and that
would be creating an unregulated class of minority.  When the
government regulates something it regulates reality at the same
time.
     Consider drugs that regulators determine have no medical use
when drugs are by definition those substances which have medical
use.  I am not attempting to argue the definition of the word
drug.  I am pointing out the Food and Drug Administration was
established to regulate the purity and claims of drugs for use in
medicine.
     If a substance has no medical utility then it is not a drug
within the meaning of the charter of the FDA.  Yet the FDA
regulates substances which are not within the definition by its
own charter.  Of course this begs the entire question of the
power of the government to regulate food and drugs in any manner
whatsoever.  It is not a delegated power in the Constitution.
     Now it may be a good idea for the federal government to do
such regulation and that is what the amendment process of the
constitution was designed to do, add additional delegations to
the federal government.
     Here is another one for those of us who started driving
pre-Nixon.  Whence came the power to regulate highway speed?
Whence came the power to determine the daylight saving time zone
of the states?  Cincinnati used to keep Central Daylight Time
until the law required states to be uniform.  Now Greater
Cincinnati Airport in Kentucky keeps Ohio time rather than
Kentucky time.
     Trivial?  Of course.  Annoying?  Most definitely.  A
usurpation of undelegated power?  Unquestionably.
     Regulating the type of guns?  "We are not taking your guns
away.  We are just making it harder to get decent defense
weapons.  Consider the ban on Saturday Night Specials in 1968
that banned cheap guns so the poor victims lost the means of
defense.  After all Congressmen with their armed bodyguards can
not find the slightest reason for people to defend themselves.
If they are in danger they can always hire bodyguards.
     But do not forget, they are not banning the means of self
defense, they are only regulating it.  They are only requiring
that the victim have less effective weapons than attackers,
plural.  It is only regulation.  Self defense is not being banned
yet.
     Were this to be a larger article I could provide dozens more
examples of regulation vice banning where there is no apparent
difference save in the legal wording.  We are back to walks,
talks, and waddles like a duck it is still a ban and in no way a
"regulation" loophole.
     When we face regulation that is the same as a ban it is
unconstitutional as there is no difference.  And as such it is a
usurpation of a power not delegated.  Those who enforce it have
no right to do so and are violating their oath of office.
     Resistance to such usurped authority is in consonance with
an oath of office.  Submitting to it is not.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


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+++ r_940905 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (2)
To:      Scott Summers                           2 Sep 94 00:31:10
Subject: breaks of the game                     

SS> IL>  MG> The gun ban is dead as of 8/11.

SS> IL> WooHoo! Long live GUNS!

SS>  MG>      Another ignorant Canadian speaks up.

SS>  Ayup.  And your powers of prognostication need work as well.  
SS>  The gun ban is alive and well.  On the bright side.....  my 
SS>  net worth just went up dramatically.  :)

     Yours too?  I am ready to advertise my Norinco AKS-47 with 
75 round drum, 30 and two 5 round clips, strap, accessories, 
threaded barrel even.  I only paid $400 for all of it.  The drum 
alone was $129 before the Feinstein amendment.  I can even add 
300 rounds of ammunition for the paltry sum of ...

     "The most dangerous weapon in the world."  Janet Reno

     I would say at least $2000 in this market, probably much 
more.  A bidding war is not to be rejected.  On the other hand 
keeping it is such a good idea.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (3)
To:      Jim Higgins                             2 Sep 94 00:41:10
Subject: Hate                                   

JH>  MG>  It is called polemic and a legitimate rhetoric form.  Read 
JH>  MG>  Thomas Paine.

JH>  JH> I read her regularly and recall nothing on this topic.  ;-)

JH>  MG>  That was Thomasina Paine and was only in one movie.  It was 
JH>  MG>  a good fill for a non-Kung Fu epic.

JH>  But of course.  Still one must view these works of art from 
JH>  within the milieu created and nurtured by the genre if one 
JH>  is to experience the full range and subtlety of expression 
JH>  contained within them.

     And I am working to be in my time.  The worst that can 
happen is that I am laughed at.  My detractors attempt to elevate 
that to a fine art.  It is nothing new.

     I am attempting to give voice to emotions that are otherwise 
only felt.  That as I read it is the basis of polemic.  We know 
things are happening and they are only disjointed feelings.  I 
could take the other side and imagine greater protections but I 
just can not see that from where I am coming from.  

     This is what the majority of my correspondents appear to 
appreciate.
     
     But then hardly a 1/4 of it is polemic so I have no serious 
problem with what I post nor with those who respond.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (4)
To:      Ian Lin                                 2 Sep 94 00:55:10
Subject: The 1st takes a walk                   

IL>  MG>  We expect little from Canadians this side of the border.  
IL>  MG>  They are so docile.

IL>  Well...yes.  But so is our government.  Our government isn't 
IL>  very hostile against us and isn't trying to burn us as 
IL>  badly as yours seems to.  We really have little to 
IL>  justifiably complain about, in my honest opinion.

     You government plays mercenary to the UN and doesn't appear 
to mind losing people in the process.  That in itself is worthy 
of revolution. 

     First they came for our soldiers and I did not speak because 
I was not a soldier ...

     You know the rest.

     Why should you care they send your children to the 
slaughter?  

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (5)
To:      Scott Summers                           2 Sep 94 00:58:10
Subject: Waco Travesty                          

SS>  MG>       One of those is clearly from inside.  The other is of 
SS>  MG>  interest although there has been no inventory of BATF guns 
SS>  MG>  I have seen no weapon that could fire a .223 in the tapes.  
SS>  MG>  The other two will never be known.

SS>  Wait a minute! Nothing on the tapes? Matt, there are not 
SS>  one but *several* M16-type rifles viewable on the tape in 
SS>  the hands of the ATF.....  and they *all* fire .223 ammo.  
SS>  Military designation is 5.56, but it's the same round.

     I will review the tapes but I saw no M-16s as best I 
remember.  Which tape, where?  

     Since the single bullet JFK theory has been enshrined as 
gospel we can debate entrance and exit wound forever.  Which tape 
and roughly when?  I am interested.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (6)
To:      George Rudzinski                        2 Sep 94 05:21:10
Subject: The citadel                            

GR>  -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Charles Hill <=-

GR>  CH> Matt Giwer read this off a milk carton, or something:
GR>  MG>
GR>  MG> I do read milk cartons.  I keep hoping to see Clinton's
GR>  MG> picture on it.

GR> Matt,

GR>  Have a problem with democracy?  Or just like to whine when 
GR>  your candidate loses?

     I had no expectations of winning.  I voted Libertarian.

GR>  CH>   It's not exactly private - the small print in the school's 
GR>  CH>   name, "The Military College of South Carolina", might give 
GR>  CH>   you the idea that it's administered by the S.C.  state 
GR>  CH>   government, and you'd be right - but it's definitely not 
GR>  CH>   one of the official service academies....cgh

GR>  MG>  Where does this information come from?  Chartered by the 
GR>  MG>  state as the Military College is something different.  What 
GR>  MG>  I have been reading is funding is from every place but the 
GR>  MG>  state.

GR> So you believe in private descrimination?
     
     Certainly.  If you do not then the next social event you 
give you just post it on a dozen telephone polls and let anyone 
in.  Are you trying to look stupid? 




---
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+++ r_940908 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (38)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         5 Sep 94 01:01:10
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH'S ARK                     

BS>  Actually, what AC> states is a "lie".  The fact is that 
BS>  "Evolutionists" mostly ignore creationts.  The only time 
BS>  they give them much attention is when the creationists 
BS>  attack and seem to be getting to where they might be 
BS>  successful in getting their propaganda into schools and 
BS>  other places.

     Of course.  They are not worth the time in the least until they get a 
foothold in spreading what is not true.   

BS>  About the only reason creationists get any support is that 
BS>  they relentlessly repeat "the big lie" and nobody bothers 
BS>  to speak against it.

     They repeal ALL the lies after they admit they are lies.   
Follow them around Fido and you will find them solidly trounced 
on one conference for lack of evidence and failure to support, 
often even admitting they were wrong.  When they disappear they 
start over from the being on another conference.

     Tracking them down and confronting them with their own 
admissions is fun.  In that case we have them as admitted liars.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even I am impressed.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (39)
To:      Frank Hay                               5 Sep 94 01:02:10
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH'S ARK                     

 FH>  Ha>  right, then I feel sorry for you.  That's all.  And should 
 FH>  Ha>  you be right, then you can feel sorry for me.  We'll find 
 FH>  Ha>  out one day.  The catch is: If I'm right, we'll all know, 
 FH>  Ha>  but if you're right, we'll never know, because we'll be 
 FH>  Ha>  dead and unknowing.

 FH>  Why do you not consider other possiblities? You could both 
 FH>  be wrong, for one.

FH> Satanism could be the "true" religion. 
     
     Man is the only animal with the true religion, several of 
them.  -- MT

     Sorry, the likelihood of god, satan or any spirits is 
exactly the same, zero.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I never apologize.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (40)
To:      Ken Pangborn                            5 Sep 94 02:10:10
Subject: The citadel                            

P>  George Orwell had it all wrong.  He was 10 years off and got 
 the gender wrong.

 IT'S 1994...........   LONG LIVE BIG SISTER!!!!!

     And her name is Janet "the dyke" Reno.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I didn't make this world. I only brought it to its knee
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (41)
To:      Charles Hill                            5 Sep 94 02:20:10
Subject: The Citadel                            

CH>  Anyway, things can be fluid in the Palmetto State - in 
CH>  1968, the College of Charleston was a struggling private 
CH>  school with 400 students, and today it's a state school 
CH>  with ten thousand.  I've not heard that the Citadel has 
CH>  actually changed its name, but I don't think that name 
CH>  necessarily means that Columbia pays all the bills....cgh

     I have no brochures much less a financial statement.  I can 
only comment upon what I have read.  That being the financing 
comes from tuitions, alumni contributions and endowments.  

     Certainly there may be some state contributions, there 
always are but I get no impression they are of the type or 
magnitude that should ever invoke EEOC or whatever laws.       


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sleeping one mat; awake half a mat; three bowls for ric
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (42)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         5 Sep 94 03:09:10
Subject: COMING TO TEXAS                        

BS>          This Chapel Hill-Carborro 40 page plan will teach 
BS>  staff, students, and faculty that every individual and 
BS>  family (even gay families) should be respected and 
BS>  accepted.  It not only affirms the dignity of lesbian and 
BS>  gay persons, but calls for support staff for lesbian/gay 
BS>  students and families to be included in every school in the 
BS>  district.  Such welcome efforts are essential in the 
BS>  continuing struggle to combat the virulent homophobia in 
BS>  text books, which reach a truly captive audience and rank 
BS>  among the most widely-read mass media in the country.

     Let me explain this to you once.

          Every currently popular cause to create work for 
teachers running short of teachers is jumped on.  There is 
nothing more to it than a union protecting its own and in fact 
seeking to expand.
          
     This and similar are all self serving efforts and if in 
your cause, fine with me, but these are truly fair weather 
friends.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (43)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         5 Sep 94 03:29:10
Subject: EARLY XIAN MARRIAGES  1/2              

BS>         Boswell tackles head-on the question that most readers will
BS> probably be asking themselves: "Was the ceremony 'homosexual' in
BS> an erotic sense? " Boswell's answer is once again cautious:

     In all the conferences where this has come up the only cop 
out I have found is the claim his references are all "Eastern 
Rite."  I have seen no evidence in support of this position but 
it is the best I have read.  After all, you know those greeks ...


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro:  Hope over experience.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (44)
To:      William Meriwether                      5 Sep 94 03:42:10
Subject: Giwer's Lies                           

 -=> Quoting Matt Giwer to Scott Summers <=-
WM>  
 SS>  This isn't William's first visit to CONTROV.  He comes in, 
 SS>  he turns over all the furniture, he declares victory and 
 SS>  leaves.  

 MG> He was banned from Politics actually and here is where he 
 MG> lighted.

WM> I have NEVER EVER been banned from ANY echo.  So I must ask you...

WM> Why does this guy lie?

     I am only recounting David Bloomberg.  Is he lying?



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Torah! Torah! Torah!"  A battle cry to frighten Arabs.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (45)
To:      Charles Hill                            5 Sep 94 04:02:10
Subject: Length, etc.                           

CH>  Michael Shirley seems to get his stuff munged by WildMail 
CH>  from time to time; it's supposed to cut a message down to 
CH>  size and send up both parts, but often only Part I ever 
CH>  makes it to the conference.  I'm not quite familiar enough 
CH>  with Wildcat stuff to make a general recommendation 
CH>  (although I expect someone will soon chime in with "Get 
CH>  some *real* software!"), so we'll just wait and see for 
CH>  now....cgh

     It sucks worse than that.  I have been having that same 
problem.  In testing what it is I have posted messages that 
should be cut up and in fact are and then tested the receipt in a 
25 cent toll call away.  They ALWAYS arrive in both parts.  That 
means the local boards are eating the multi-part messages with no 
problem as it works between 3306 and 377 and within each of them.

     BUT when getting out of these cheap exchange areas all parts 
after the first vanish.  

     This is not theory, this is fact I have observed.  If anyone 
is interested in this I will document it.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Eat anything that doesn't eat you first.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (104)
To:      Ian Lin                                 6 Sep 94 13:46:10
Subject: BIG BANG                               

 MS>  I thought the Big Bang theory assumed nothing existed until 
 MS>  the bang.  If so, where are the star, particles, and 
 MS>  explosive compounds coming from?

 MG> Of course it does.  This person has no idea what he is 
 MG> talking about.

IL>  I didn't know the big bang theory assumed nothing existed 
IL>  before.  
     
     You do now.

IL>  I wouldn't assume that! 

     You have spent how many years applying your formal education 
in physics to understanding the matter?  

We've never been able to 
IL>  make something out of nothing so it seems a little awkward 
IL>  to believe it could happen on its own! 

     The bang was an inflation following a large enough quantum 
fluctuation in the energy level of nothing.  It is that simple 
but the math takes a little longer.     

Something from 
IL>  NOTHING? I just can't believe that.  

     What does belief have to do with anything?

I guess I'm not a full 
IL>  believer in the big bang theory, right? So what? I never 
IL>  claimed to be.  I just put forth what my guess was.  I didn't 
IL>  say it WAS the big bang theory, though it's similar.  I 
IL>  don't claim to be a scientist either.  But the way I look at 
IL>  it, it seems most likely that all the matter was there in 
IL>  the first place and was always there and just did it's 
IL>  thing, controlled by gravity and explosions.  

     Not only are you not a scientist you are not a rational 
thinker.  Please explain the source of the "explosions"?  What 
exploded?  

I'm not saying 
IL>  this is the big bang theory--clearly it seems not to be, 
IL>  accordiing to pupular science and opinion.  

     According to real science it is not.

It just makes no 
IL>  sense for something to come from nothing, especially such a 
IL>  mass as to be the entire universe's.

     As I said.  You do not know what you are talking about.  You 
did not need to demonstrate it.

 MG> That is because you are not looking for it.  It is all over 
 MG> the literature.

IL>  Other than this "nothing existed before" idea, I don't have 
IL>  a problem with it.

     This sounds like "Whose on First."  Right, nothing existed 
before.  The energy for the inflation came from nothing.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (105)
To:      Ian Lin                                 6 Sep 94 13:51:10
Subject: EVOLUTION                              

 MG> The chances that you exist from the beginning of recorded 
 MG> history ONLY (or from 4004 BC which you prefer to believe) is 
 MG> 10,000,000 to the 300th power.  Roughly 10 to the 2099 power.  
 MG> which means you are too improbable to exist and therefore you do 
 MG> not exist.

IL>  That theory is flawed.  He already exists therefore he 
IL>  cannot be non- existent.  The improbability remains but his 
IL>  existence fortifies that he was that slight chance that he 
IL>  would exist.  All those others who never got the chance are 
IL>  the ones that aren't around, all 10^2099 -1 of them.  :)

     And the same faulty application of statistics to attempt to 
attack evolution is false for the same reason.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (106)
To:      Ian Lin                                 6 Sep 94 15:01:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark                     

 MG>  You are not being surprised because you have no idea what 
 MG>  you are talking about.

IL>  Now that's not very nice, is it? I do know what I'm talking 
IL>  about.  We do have an idea of what a comet would do on 
IL>  impact.  I suspect it would not really result in a flood 
IL>  after all.  It would probably vapourize in the atmosphere, 
IL>  at least the ice.

     The "flood" required enough water to cover the highest 
mountain which is around six miles high.  That works out to 
roughly 1,200,000,000 cubic miles of water.  That is a sphere of 
water roughly 680 miles in diameter.  That is six times the 
thickness of the atmosphere by the most generous measure of how 
thick it is.  Just where to you expect this vaporization to 
occur?  (For comparison the dino-killer is estimated to have been 
maybe ten miles across.)

     Given the velocity of comets and the velocity of the earth 
the energy release upon impact would be around 
26,583,013,124,236,800,000,000,000 joules.  One joule is enough 
energy to raise 2.2 pounds 1.1 meters.  I am not going to bother 
to go further and dig out the references but that is more than 
sufficient energy to raise the temperature of the atmosphere by 
at least 1000 degrees.  

     Are there any other questions?

IL>  What's your answer?

     There was no flood.  There is no evidence of a flood, 
period.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Matt Giwer, brought to you by the 2nd Amendement.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (116)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         6 Sep 94 17:10:10
Subject: HEALTH CARE                            

MG>MS>  MG> MS>  They have already thought of that.  Everything "phases in"  
                                                                 ~~~~~~~~~

MG>      Social Security is eating up some 14% of payroll in 
MG> this  country at th moment.  Do you think that could have 
MG> been the  first step?
MG> 
MG>      Pre-paid health care will take another 14%.  After that 
MG> we  get to pay regular taxes.

BS> Let's take all these hidden costs out in the open.

BS>  Employees pay the full Soc Sec cost.  No more employer-paid 
BS>  health care.  Give the employee a raise, if necessary, but 
BS>  let the employee do the paying, even if coverage is kept 
BS>  mandatory.
BS> 
BS>  When people see what they are paying, when the true cost is 
BS>  no longer hidden and passed on to consumers, then attitudes 
BS>  will change.

     Something like that has been tried by employers to cut 
expenses, either one or three no deduction checks and the 2nd or 
4th of the month being the only one the accountant to prepare but 
it had all the deductions from it.  Needless to say the IRS did 
not like that.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Live fast, love well, and have a glorious end.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (117)
To:      Scot Bear                               6 Sep 94 17:17:10
Subject: Prohibition v banning                  

 >                    Prohibition vice Regulation
 >                                by
 >                            Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/1>
 >
SB>  
SB>  Uh, the word is "versus"; not "vice".  The proper 
SB>  abbreviation is "vs."...

     Actually half correct but it should read "Regulation vice 
Prohibition."     

SB>  How do you expect people to believe your monologues if you 
SB>  don't even know how to use the words?

     I count the responses I get.  I get across quite well.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Torah! Torah! Torah!"  A battle cry to frighten Arabs.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (118)
To:      Scot Bear                               6 Sep 94 17:18:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold                   

 >                Welfare and the End of the Cold War
 >                                by
 >                            Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>
SB>  
SB> Hitler put people in "camps", too...
SB>  
SB> You're a crazy fucker. 
     
     These are completely voluntary.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: That which does not destroy us makes us greater.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      Paul West                               5 Sep 94 16:05:10
Subject: 06: Free To Speak?     01              

PW> In a message to Paul West <08-31-94  18:19> Matt Giwer wrote:

 PW> Free To Speak?
PW>  
 MG> Wall Street Journal, August 8, 1994
 MG> By Heather MacDonald

PW>  Thank you for posting that great piece from the Journal 
PW>  Matt!  Much appreciated even though I am now totally 
PW>  depressed.

     And if you come across "Another Nail" do not suicide.  It is 
really for the best.




 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Live fast, love well, and have a glorious end.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (247)
To:      Mike Marotta                            6 Sep 94 01:03:10
Subject: What is a Coin?                        

MM> Subject: SOCRATES VERSUS THE U.S. MINT
MM> from: mercury@well.sf.ca.us 
MM> to: coins@cobra.uni.edu
MM>  
MM> In Numismatic News for July 5, 1994, Alan Herbert claimed that 
MM> the US Mint holds legal title to the word "coin."  He said:
MM>         The term "coin" has been legally and professionally 
MM>         banned for used in the hobby to prevent applying it 
MM>         to medals, tokens and other similar pieces. 
MM>            A coin is defined as a piece that has been issued 
MM>         and is assigned a specific value by a legal body 
MM>         entitled to issue money.

     I do not know the validity of this claim.  However it would 
be impossible to copyright or trademark and those are the only 
venues of controlling the use of a word and must be strenuously 
with each infraction else either is lost.

     Now that we are passed that it must be a matter of special 
law and it would be better to have the exact wording of the law.

     Further, I do not believe it could pass constitutional 
muster as there is no exclusive delegation of the power of 
coining money to the US Congress, it is simply an authorization.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
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+++ r_940910 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (185)
To:      All                                     7 Sep 94 01:47:10
Subject: Spam facts                             

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the DEBATE conference.

     The five top states in Spam consumption are Hawaii, Alaska, 
Arkansas, Texas, and Alabama.
---
  SPEED 1.30 >01<  I never apologize.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (234)
To:      Ken Pangborn                            7 Sep 94 13:08:10
Subject: The citadel                            

 P>  George Orwell had it all wrong.  He was 10 years off and got 
 MG> the gender wrong.

 MG> IT'S 1994...........   LONG LIVE BIG SISTER!!!!!

 MG> And her name is Janet "the dyke" Reno.

KP>         Now Matt - she hasn't admitted being a dyke yet!

     You missed how she quashed her own prosecution when she was 
found with a minor girl in the parking lot of Masa Gallarie?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: You only get six fouls per game.  Make them count.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (236)
To:      All                                     7 Sep 94 14:40:10
Subject: Moral Evolution                        

                          Moral Progress
                               by
                          Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/7>

     Often we become depressed over the morality of our public
officials.  We see graft and corruption in the news and ten times
as much commonly known or rumored. We often despair that this can
ever be corrected.
     But there is good news.  There has been massive progress in
the moral standards of public officials over the last sixty to
seventy years.  When we look back to the time of Prohibition we
say judges, prosecutors, the police and politcians at all levels
on the take.
     Back then the FBI was active in ferreting out this
corruption.  It was common knowledge that it was happening.
After all, considering all the effort being expended against
illegal alcohol it was obvious that, with alcohol being so
available, there was no other possible explanation.
     Consider the progress we have made today.  Despite the ready
availability of drugs no public official today is taking money
from anyone involved in drugs.  The FBI has not even bothered to
search it out as it is clear there is none.
     This is an outstanding example of how moral progess is
possible and that people can change.  Despite the tens of
millions of dollars the drug cartels have to buy protection, and
certainly they have offered it, no one has accepted it.  Consider
no one has taken that money.
     Occasionally you will hear of an official or police officer
who has been found using them and even less common dealing them
but these are personal failings and do not reflect upon the use
of their public office.
     Consider, despite the graft and corruption the comes to like
in other areas where there is less money to buy protection, in
the area where there is the most money our public officials are
prisine.
     And this has been going on for about two decades when major
smuggling operations started.  First marijuana and then cocaine
along with a major increase in that old favorite heroin and for
all these years no corruption.
     A cynic may say there is enough money to keep it all quiet
but how could that be?  We have the FBI and the DEA specifically
charged with finding such corruption.  The FBI at least is still
an incorruptible agency in the mold of J. Edgar Hoover.
     And they uncover no one and find no problems for this last
score of years.  Thefore we know the cynic must be wrong.  The
FBI would never be on the take not to find drug corruption.
     As I write I am listening to the new of St. Petersburg with
the police department, the sheriff's office and the DEA roaming
the city with 400 warrants and having made 30 arrests as of the
2pm news.  It was announced they were all for a cocaine and crack
ring.  
     Do you not admire a coordinated operation to shut down drug
distribution in the city that puts it on the radio while it is in
progress?  Do you not have to respect these law enforcement
agencies knowing the dealers mainly sell during the day and do
not have radios?  This way they can keep the citizens aware of
what a great job they are doing fighting drugs and still make all
400 arrests.
     Consider the days of Prohibition where a cop on the take
would phone the place to be raided and warn them.  That is such
blatant and obvious corruption.  But announcing the operation to
the press and getting minute by minute coverage nothing is
compromised and there is no corruption.
     Again the cynic might suggest drug dealers or even buyers
might listen to radio but there have been laws passed against
boom boxes so they no longer exist.  We all know the rock
stations do not cover local news so even if they had any kind of
radio they would never learn what is happening until they are
arrested.  But there is no need to single out Tampa, this is the
strategy in all cities.
     There is no conclusion other than there has been a great
leap in the moral evolution of our public figures since early in
this century.  This is a remarkable event in that it is perhaps
the first time in history where, whithout any increase in threat
or penalty, the level of corruption has so markedly and
observably decreased and in such a short period of time.  And
this in the face of perhaps a greater temptation from more
sources and even more money available for graft.
     This change is certainly worthy of serious study by
socialogists as if why it has happened can be discovered perhaps
it can be applied to other areas of human affairs, perhaps even
the drug dealers themselves.  I am proud to be the first to
identify this phenomon and hope it can be used for the betterment
of the human race.
                           * * * * *
Further distribution is encouraged by the author.
Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl 34698, 813-733-5479



---
  SPEED 1.30 >01<  Sind Sein Tochter Achtzehn?
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+++ r_940912 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (40)
To:      Ian Lin                                 8 Sep 94 02:30:10
Subject: creationism                            

 MV>  PO214, on the other hand, has a halflife of only 128 days!  
 MV>  Rock formed and hardened out of cosmic dust in three 
 MV>  months?!  But hold on to your rock layers-it gets even 
 MV>  worse!! PO218 has a halflife of only 0.0016 seconds!!! This 
 MV>  means that rock formed and hardened around this element in 
 MV>  less than one second!!!???.  During the trials a man named

IL>  Yup.  It could happen.  Just at the right time.  And the rest 
IL>  continued to decay into other elements.  Why not? It's 
IL>  possible, though it seems unlikely.  Not all samples of it 
IL>  on earth would be the same age.  Similar samples would decay 
IL>  at similar rates but not at the same time.  What if there 
IL>  was a mass of it and just a bit got caught and the rest 
IL>  didn't, and then the rest just continued to decay? Is there 
IL>  evidence of the other elements that these cited ones decay 
IL>  into being near or with the rare element that decays in 
IL>  such a short time?
IL> 
IL>  Actually, I've never even heard of those isotopes.  I 
IL>  suppose that's something to look up.

     This is the mica halo anomoly.  Fully discussed in 
Scientific American about 2 years ago.  Try your library.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Matt Giwer, the most dangerous man on Controv. J Higgin
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (41)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                         8 Sep 94 02:32:10
Subject: CRIME BILL                             

SS> After a moment of reflection,Bob Sillyheimer shared this insight with Scott
SS> Summers

 BS> I'm surprised there wasn't a bigger fight by Jesse Helms and friends
 BS> against the crime bill. I am informed that it added "sexual orientation"
 BS> to the list the federal "hate crimes" law protects.

SS>   Yeah, you perverts are downright popular with the present 
SS>  stration.  Enjoy it while you can.  When it changes, and it 
SS>  will, it will h a vengence.  

     And majority of such crime is gay on gay, which of course 
can not be gay and can not be counted, not can gay on straight.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I,Matthias Gloriosus,I,messager to 1000s,I am my ideal.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (42)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                         8 Sep 94 02:53:10
Subject: Gibson's Gibberish                     

MG>       He was banned from Politics actually and here is where 
MG>  he lighted.

JB> I sure wish POLITICS would stop sending us their trash...

     It appears we are being treated as an unsanitary landfill.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (43)
To:      Scot Bear                               8 Sep 94 02:55:10
Subject: Giwer's Lies                           

 >  SS>  This isn't William's first visit to CONTROV.  He comes
 > in,
 >  SS>  he turns over all the furniture, he declares victory
 > and
 >  SS>  leaves.
 >
 >  MG> He was banned from Politics actually and here is where
 > he
 >  MG> lighted.
 >
 > I have NEVER EVER been banned from ANY echo.  So I must
 > ask you...
 >
 > Why does this guy lie?

SB>  Because no one will listen to him if he tells the truth.  
SB>  Just like the "class liar" back in school, he has to make 
SB>  the most-outrageous statements to get attention! 

     To be honest about it I did not notice it happening at the 
time.  I did notice the moderator in Politics saying it happened.  
You may ask Bloomy.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (44)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                         8 Sep 94 03:01:10
Subject: Huh?                                   

JB>  But you criticize Matt for proposing camps for welfare 
JB>  people saying, "Hitler had camps too", when clearly Matt's 
JB>  proposal is not very similar at all, except the fact that 
JB>  he proposes using physical camps (i.e., nobody's getting 
JB>  shipped there unvoluntarily, anyone can leave at any time - 
JB>  at least that's what I read) - unused army bases, I 
JB>  believe.  Here, you seem to think that if it is _like_ 
JB>  something Hitler did, it's bad.
JB> 
JB>  Huh?

     "Hitler is exactly the horrible example I say he was and not 
one bit more."  -- Scot Bare

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am not a number.  I am a free man.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (45)
To:      Ian Lin                                 8 Sep 94 03:14:10
Subject: Joycelyn Elders                        

 SS>  You liked that, did you?  My personal favorite is Elders 
 SS>  saying, "We can build safer guns.  We can make safer 
 SS>  bullets."  ROFL Coming soon to a store near you.  Bullets 
 SS>  with a Elders approved warning lable.  I recommend, 
 SS>  "Warning.  Incoming fire has the right of way."

IL>  I seriously wonder if she was hired by Rush just to give 
IL>  his show something to do.  After all, can any individual 
IL>  REALLY be that stupid?

     Are not all Clinton appointees the same?  

     Aspin gets 42 people killed by his incompetence.

     Bentsen sells T-Bills in a way that would get a corporate 
comptroller fired.

     Reno has child abuse fantasies and orders deadly force.

     And Elders, in charge of and in direct control of every 
major Federal health organization, wants safer bullets.

     She is the epitome of a Clinton appointee, embodying all the 
talents Reno, Apsin and Bentsen lack.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I,Matthias Gloriosus,I,messager to 1000s,I am my ideal.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (46)
To:      Dean Nusholtz                           8 Sep 94 03:23:10
Subject: Mt. Carmel                             

DN> Remember the Warsaw ghetto? It all depends on what you want left
DN> standing when its all over. 

DN>  But you know the truth because I have given it before.  In 
DN>  1980 the BAFT did over 30,000 gun searches a year.  That's 
DN>  where they trace a gun used in a crime back to its origin.  

     As you know, dumb shit, Congress determined that 80% of 
their actions were technical infractions and entrapment.  

DN>  By the time Reagan got through with the BAFT it was doing 
DN>  less then 2000.  

     2000 might just be the legitimate cases they had.  

     As you also know Congress recommended the BATF be disbanded 
and that is 2000 more cases than Congress wanted them to conduct.

The moral was around zero and what's more, 
DN>  those that were highly qualified and experienced left for 
DN>  other jobs.  Those that were left to run the BAFT in 1992 
DN>  were the dregs, space cadets with guns.  You saw the out 
DN>  come of this in Weaver and also mirrored as well in Scott.  

     You perhaps should be writing alternate history science 
fiction.  What you recount did not happen in this timeline.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<:         The Purple Pedophile must die!
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (47)
To:      Scott Summers                           8 Sep 94 03:29:10
Subject: Ruby Ridge                             

SS>  I was wondering if you had the messages you'd posted during 
SS>  Randy Weaver's trial archived.  I had them on a floppy that 
SS>  threw a shoe.  I need to get hold of them.

     If you get no response, remind me in two weeks.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (121)
To:      Ken Pangborn                            9 Sep 94 12:57:10
Subject: The citadel                            

 KP>         Now Matt - she hasn't admitted being a dyke yet!

 MG> You missed how she quashed her own prosecution when she was 
 MG> found with a minor girl in the parking lot of Masa Gallarie?

KP>          I have heard this "rumor" repeatedly Matt.  I am not 
KP>  aware of any substantiation of it.  Neither the minor gir, 
KP>  her parents, or anyone else allegedly directly involved has 
KP>  come forward to confirm the story that I am aware of.

     The attorney from Miami was on Mark Larsen's show last year.  
He had an affidavit with his personal knowledge of events and he 
documented the lack of any record of the arrest or disposition.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<:                Barney Must Die!
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (122)
To:      Chris Boyd                              9 Sep 94 14:18:10
Subject: Evolution                              

 MS>  How come a very early ancestor (apes) and a modern 
 MS>  descendent (man) coexist, yet there are no living 
 MS>  in-between stages?
 MS> 
 MS>  Not just with apes-humans, but with any species?  Are there 
 MS>  coexisting species in the same evolutionary chain?  If so, 
 MS>  why not with apes-humans? 

CB>       Perhaps evolution didn't take place worldwide at the 
CB>       same time.  
CB> 
CB>       What if man evolutionized from apes in an isolated 
CB>       area, and grew from there?  Wouldn't the rest of the 
CB>       apes not in that isolated area become nonaffected?

     What you describe is what happen.  It did all occur at the 
same place at least but over time.  The slight difference in the 
races appear to be the results of generalized selective pressures 
and isolation.  For example it is not clear why orientals and 
caucasians are different save for isolation.  It is clear that 
orientals in the tropics did not develop negroid melanin as they 
were not isolated from orientals up through Siberia as the 
mediterranean separated negroid and caucasian.

     There must be some popularized book discussing this but I am 
not aware of a title.

 MS> Do you find creationism just too fantastic to even say it could
 MS> be credible?

CB>      I don't find *any* evidence too fantastic.  It's only 
CB>      that I haven't seen one iota of evidence to back 
CB>      creationism up.  That's the reason I'm a little 
CB>      skeptical.

     You have seen zero evidence in support of creation.  There 
is nothing more to creationism that propaganda attacks on 
evolution.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (123)
To:      Mark Simmons                            9 Sep 94 14:24:10
Subject: Evolution                              

MS> If its not true then how is it false?
MS>  All I've been given so far is the term "emergient 
MS>  properties" and that Mr.  Lewis is arguing from ignorance.
MS> 
MS>  IMO, Lewis wasn't saying that he couldn't understand 
MS>  evolution.  He was saying that if the above statement was 
MS>  true then he couldn't understand how thoughts would have 
MS>  any meaning.

     Lewis was bringing many other things he did not understand 
and arguing that his failure to understand those things was 
sufficient reason to bring evolution into question.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Rush Limbaugh is too humble.  -- Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (124)
To:      Thomas Paine                            9 Sep 94 14:37:10
Subject: Racism/voice opinion                   

TP>         I'm bummed out.  I just realized that my own 
TP>  particular genetic line doesn't have a descriptive 
TP>  derogatory slang term...or at least not one I have heard 
TP>  of.  I guess that means we're pretty unsuccessful.  Hell, 
TP>  even the FRENCH rate a bad name....

     Doesn't Limey work?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: My every message, a conference unto itself.
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+++ r_940914 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (52)
To:      Phillip Jones                          11 Sep 94 01:06:10
Subject: Crime Bill Surprise!                   

MG>       I would love to but I don't have FTP ability as yet.  
MG>  I was  hoping someone else might and do the same thing.

PJ>  1:231/110 (charleston sheriff's office bbs!) has it 
PJ>  available for FREQ as CRIMEBIL.ARJ.  It runs 333k.  They 
PJ>  support 14.4 bps.  It is VERY dense reading, and makes 
PJ>  innumerable references to other bills, so it is still hard 
PJ>  to get a complete picture, but I am not finding a lot of 
PJ>  the horror-show stuff rumor had was in it...

     Thank you.  I have heard a claim there are only 19 pages of 
material that directly address crime in the bill and that does 
sound like a lot of reading for little benefit.  However, do you 
have a phone number?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (53)
To:      Jim Higgins                            11 Sep 94 01:18:10
Subject: Hate                                   

 MG> But then hardly a 1/4 of it is polemic so I have no serious 
 MG> problem with what I post nor with those who respond.

JH>  No argument from here with any of that, but I do need to 
JH>  confess something...  when you responded with that bit above 
JH>  about Thomasina Paine and a Kung Fu epic I thought you were 
JH>  just laying a nonsensical non sequiter on me and my movie 
JH>  review style response was pure babble intended to be some 
JH>  sort of response in kind.  If you got something which 
JH>  seemed to be on topic from it I wish you would let me know 
JH>  what it was...   ;-)

     No way.  Death Race 2000 should be required viewing for all 
would be revolutionaries.  It will relieve the stress during the 
real thing.  If you missed that, John Carradine Jr. (grasshopper 
himself) had the lead as the cross country race car driver where 
they did count points for the kills along the way.  Thomasina 
Paine was the leader of the revolutionaries which Mr. President, 
vacationing at his retreat in China blamed on the French.

     Try Blockbuster.  The black humor and the early Stallone as 
Machinegun Joe Viturbo is worth the $3.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Never assume conspiracy where stupidity will suffice.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (54)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        11 Sep 94 01:33:10
Subject: Huh?                                   

MG> JB>  Huh?

MG>       "Hitler is exactly the horrible example I say he was 
MG>  and not one bit more."  -- Scot Bare

JB>  These Hitler comparisons are getting idiotic, IMHO.  
JB>  "Hitler ate saurkraut, so we should ban it!!!"  "Y'know, 
JB>  you shouldn't have a German Shepherd - Hitler had one".
JB> 
JB>  Sheesh.  At least, we could all be consistent here..  but I 
JB>  have a feeling that is too much to ask...

     Which is why I have been consistantly pushing for an image 
of what he really was.  As I have noted anyone wishing to fill 
his shoes in this country would never wear brown, never have a 
mustache and keep a kosher kitchen.  

     As long as he does not look like the popular image of Hitler 
he can not be a Hitler even though he is pushing for the exact 
ideal of national social and fascism that lead Europe down the 
last fun road.  

     We have had five years of real peace save for the brush fire 
wars.  No more than fifteen to go before tensions mount to 
serious war again.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: If the gods do not listen, what good are they?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (55)
To:      Scot Bear                              11 Sep 94 01:39:10
Subject: Prohibition v banning                  

 >>                    Prohibition vice Regulation
 > SB>
 > SB>  Uh, the word is "versus"; not "vice".  The proper
 >
 > SB>  abbreviation is "vs."...
 >
 >      Actually half correct but it should read "Regulation
 > vice
 > Prohibition."
SB>  
SB>  Better look it up again...  there is no use in the English 
SB>  language of the word "vice" in the context that you are 
SB>  using it.  the word is: VERSUS, not "vice".  It's a 
SB>  colloquialism that seems to emanate from somewhere in the 
SB>  Southern part of the US.  

     I will.  The second definition of it as a preposition gives, 
in place of, instead of, as alternate meanings.  (Webster's New 
World Dictionary.)  Whereas versus is transative in that either 
order is correct, vice would be Regulation in place of 
Prohibition which was the intent.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (56)
To:      Scot Bear                              11 Sep 94 01:51:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold                   

 >>                Welfare and the End of the Cold War
 >>                                by
 >>                            Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <8/30>
 > SB>
 > SB> Hitler put people in "camps", too...
 > SB>
 > SB> You're a crazy fucker.
 >
 >      These are completely voluntary.

SB>  Voluntary? How "voluntary" is it if you have no other 
SB>  alternatives to turn to? Give me a break! Lose all your 
SB>  income and tell me that you "volunteer" to live like 
SB>  cattle...  

     No one is required to accept charity.  It is completely 
voluntary.  They may seek out other means such as begging on the 
streets, cleaning toilets, or whatever else their hearts desire.  
This would be simply one option of many but it would be the only 
one where there are public funds available.  

     If they do not like Hitler-esque camps, don't go.  There is 
no force.  It is all voluntary.  

     As to living like cattle, I am talking about military bases.  
They will live quite as well as our enlisted military have lived 
for decades.  If that it not good enough then our military was 
being shafted and the welfare seekers are damned lucky to get 
that.
     
     What I fail to see is a requirement to support them in a 
single family dwelling where they want to live and with food and 
utilities all in the most expensive form it can be procured.

     Where did this burden come from?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am not a number.  I am a free man.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (57)
To:      All                                    11 Sep 94 02:11:10
Subject: 1996 prediction                        

     1996.  

     Republicans nominate Manson as candidate for President.

     Manson loses to Clinton 51 to 49.  


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I am not a number.  I am a free man.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (58)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        11 Sep 94 02:27:10
Subject: Gibson's Gibberish                     

MG> MG>       He was banned from Politics actually and here is where
MG> MG>  he lighted.

MG> JB> I sure wish POLITICS would stop sending us their trash...

MG>      It appears we are being treated as an unsanitary
MG> landfill.

JB> We need to design a recycling program for POLITICS pronto...

     What say we declare him penitent to the moderator and vouch 
for immediate reinstatement there?  Here we can fake a "please 
come home" message to him.

     He will not know the difference, he teaches history in 
Arkansas.  His mother's maiden name was Gump.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy isn't a civil right; it is a privledge.
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+++ r_940915 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (173)
To:      Ann Ross                               12 Sep 94 03:30:10
Subject: lets wager                             

 MG> By now she is probably biting anything that comes within
 MG> snapping distance.

AR>          Alllll that mental masturbation is only bemusing to 
AR>          me.  I feel sure you really, really NEED it too as 
AR>          the only thing you can do, human company being 
AR>          beyond you.

     I would presume you are not offering yourself as an 
example of human companionship.  As a dom dyke you do the best 
you can.  Other than that I am not impressed.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (192)
To:      All                                    12 Sep 94 14:15:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

     Some months ago I posted a message saying how easy it would 
be to take off from National with a plane full of explosives and 
crash it into the White House.

     I forget which conference, most like Controvery or Debate, 
but just to make certain I find that conference I will broadcast 
this message.

     I was told it was impossible, that there were secret 
everything that would prevent that from happening, that there was 
no way it could possibly happen.  There was speculation on 
radars, missile defenses, air craft ready to scramble to take out 
out, there were even imaginary loitering air craft in the air at 
all times.

     Sorry about that folks.  It just happened.  9/12 a small 
aircraft crashed on the White House lawn.  It was not shot down.  
The pilot died.  Had he the mind he could have had a hundred 
pounds of dynamite with an impact detonator and aimed a little 
better and hit the White House.

     Are there any further questions?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Matt Giwer, the most dangerous man on Controv. J Higgin
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (193)
To:      Ian Lin                                12 Sep 94 15:13:10
Subject: BIG BANG              1/2              

 MG> You have spent how many years applying your formal education 
 MG> in physics to understanding the matter?

IL>  1.  The big bang theory and generally most stuff about space 
IL>  was NOT covered for me yet.

     And you are not going to get it short of grad school.  You 
are going to have to go that route or spend a lot of time getting 
self taught.

 MG> The bang was an inflation following a large enough quantum 
 MG> fluctuation in the energy level of nothing.  It is that simple 
 MG> but the math takes a little longer.     

IL> I didn't think "nothing" could have energy.

     It is right there in quantum mechanics.  Look up the 
creation and destruction of complimentary particles.  There 
should be a mention of it in every introductory textbook.  Pursue 
the references.

 IL> Something from NOTHING? I just can't believe that.

 MG> What does belief have to do with anything?

IL>  Something from nothing -> illogical.  Belief is thinking.  It 
IL>  all boils down to personal belief based on logical facts.  I 
IL>  see no logic here so I can't believe it.

     You are using an intellectual concept of nothing rather than 
working from an actual study of nothing.  You are imagining its 
properties rather than working with those properties.  To know 
what nothing is really like you have to study nothing as you find 
it.  When you do that you find it has a very high energy level.  
And because of quantum mechanics that energy level fluctuates.

     The probability that it can fluctuate enough to have an 
energy level sufficient to cause inflation in so small in our 
universe that with all its size and time it effectively can not 
happen in millions of billions of years.  

     However, time is a property of the inflation.  Before there 
was time statistics in time is meaningless.  Therefore there were 
all magnitudes of fluctuations at once.  One that was large 
enough is our universe.  The other large ones are other 
universes.  

 MG> Not only are you not a scientist you are not a rational 
 MG> thinker.  Please explain the source of the "explosions"?  What 
 MG> exploded?

IL>  Matter.  I'm THE rational thinker.  I'm not a scientist yet.  
IL>  Explosions from explosive compounds.  As I stated, I don't 
IL>  believe there was a time when there was nothing.  It's 
IL>  illogical.  

     What in the world does logic have to do with first premises?  
Would you tell me what is logical about the existence of gravity?  
Stars and planets are logical once gravity exists but what about 
gravity in the first place?  And while you are trying to explain 
logic, please explain the logic of quantum mechanics.  You do not 
even have to start with why it exists but go directly to the way 
it behaves.

Why believe there was nothing at one time? It 
IL>  seems to be, logically, that both sides have a fundamental 
IL>  belief that there was nothing and then there was something.  
IL>  Why? We've found that there has always been energy and it 
IL>  simply takes on different forms--we can't create that.  

     But matter and energy does appear spontaniously it simply 
annialates itself under almost all circumstances.  Consider the 
Hawkins hypthesized radiation from the edge of a black hole.

IL>  Why not believe that all matter and energy have 
IL>  always been here? 

     Belief has nothing to do with it.  The evidence indicates it 
was not.  As to logic and always been here, when did always start 
and why would it always be here.

Both beliefs on the surface seem equally 
IL>  baseless but this is the state we're in--one with all the 
IL>  matter and energy.  To assume there was a time when there 
IL>  was all the matter and energy is logical since we're in it 
IL>  is logical.  To assume there was nothing at some point in 
IL>  time seems ludicrous since we can't create or destroy 
IL>  matter or energy.

     If you will read A Brief History of Time you will find black 
holes can.  Anything on the other side of the event horizon is no 
longer in our universe.

IL>  Both the creationist and big bang theorist views now seem 
IL>  illogical to me so I guess I can't support either one of 
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy isn't a civil right; it is a privledge.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (194)
To:      Ian Lin                                12 Sep 94 15:13:10
Subject: BIG BANG              2/2              

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

IL>  them.

     You need to study things before you declare them illogical.

 MG> According to real science it is not.

IL>  Real science isn't constant.  And, to be blunt, you're not 
IL>  rational, not a scientist, and not even as good as I am 
IL>  concerning ANYTHING you've writ- ten about and I'm just in 
IL>  high school.  This isn't just an idle observation since 
IL>  others have made the same remarks.  Matt, you're a fool in 
IL>  fool's clothing.

     The folks at U of Cincinnati who awarded me the BS in 
Physics thought otherwise.  The folks who signed my paycheck for 
25 years in R&D also thought otherwise.  I would suggest you 
complete your degree program and then come back and talk about 
it.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy isn't a civil right; it is a privledge.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (196)
To:      All                                    12 Sep 94 15:57:10
Subject: newsletter interest                    

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the LAW conference.

      I know much of the response I will get but I am looking
over my op-ed output and I realize I can produce a bi-monthly
newsletter with only technical difficulties and investment costs.
     Now I am not asking for any kind of commitment only of
interest in subscribing at say $18 a month.  Obviously I could
not afford to object to Xeroxing and distributing it and would in
fact decline to object if I could if the subscription address
were included in the Xeroxing.  This of course is not a license
to violate copyright but rather an observation of reality.
     I have not gone through the costing exercise but I can not
see it being more than $18 a year, more like $12 if I stick with
simple reduction and Xeroxing on my side, but I can't say at the
moment.  
     The tentative title is "The Revolution Watch."  It will
focus upon what I have been posting and for those who have not
been reading it will be topical and focusing upon the rights of
free men and infringements upon them by our government.
     So I am asking, is anyone interested?  Please speak up if
you are interested.  If you are not interested, do not waste the
bandwidth, as I would only base a decision upon the number of
subsribers not upon the non-subscribers.  1/100th of 1% of the
population would be an huge success in my terms.  That 99.99%
would not be interested is of no interest to me.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Stone Age is too good for them.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (197)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        12 Sep 94 16:13:10
Subject: 1/3RE:MT.CARMEL                        

BS>  I'm just curious to know what people are trying to achieve 
BS>  in the WACO discussion.  What are the goals? I don't know 
BS>  much about it, but am curious to understand why it stays so 
BS>  much alive and unsettled.  Just what are people concerned to 
BS>  prove? Knowing that might help me to understand why the 
BS>  issue still attracts so much attention.

     It was blatantly an unjustified attack.  It was a great 
injustice that resulted in around 100 dead all round and the 
responsibility is clearly on the government.  The call is for 
justice in the form of criminal prosecution and clear changes in 
procedures to assure it never happens again.

     Waco was not the first incident or the first deaths to 
occur, it was simply the worst.  And they have not stopped.  
Every so often someone posts a list of the recent break-ins that 
are completely wrong and unjustified so they have not stopped.  

     It is a matter of time before there is another Waco.  This 
time those who might be targeted are ready.  They know they have 
nothing to lose as the government will kill them for resisting.  
They will not sue for a cease fire but they will kill off the 
government people as the Davidians could have done.  The 
government response will not be to admit error and forget it.

     It may be the spark the revolution.

     This government has to be stopped from its current path.  It 
is that simple.  One way or another it will be.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (198)
To:      Ian Lin                                12 Sep 94 16:36:10
Subject: EVOLUTION                              

 IL>  would exist.  All those others who never got the chance are 
 IL>  the ones that aren't around, all 10^2099 -1 of them.  :)

 MG> And the same faulty application of statistics to attempt to 
 MG> attack evolution is false for the same reason.  

IL>  I don't know what the stats are.  We don't know because we 
IL>  don't know what all the creatures are that never got born 
IL>  or who died and left traces we can't find or no traces at 
IL>  all of their existence.  Simply find that and we'll compile 
IL>  the information correctly for the benefit of the world.
IL> 
IL>  Being our world saviour, I expect you to do it and hand me 
IL>  the report by next Tuesday.  I understand that you're going 
IL>  to be busy with that Big Bang / Creation report to be done 
IL>  on Monday so I'm being lenient.

     You obviously do not have the background to understand the 
answer as yet.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Rush Limbaugh is too humble.  -- Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (201)
To:      Neil Schulman                          12 Sep 94 17:11:10
Subject: Independence          1/4              

NS>  * Original to all at 1:4321/1 in "IN_COUNTRY"
NS>  * Forwarded Sat Sep 10 1994  00:52:37 by Scott Summers at 1:106/449.1

NS>               This is how the United States started:

NS>                   "In Congress, July 4, 1776

NS> I think this can actually get on the ballot in at least a dozen
NS> states in the next few years -- and win in three or four of them
NS> the first time out.

NS> Is your state one of them?

NS> Here is the New Declaration of Independence.

NS> J. Neil Schulman
NS> September 1, 1994

NS>  ***************************************************************

NS>            THE AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE BALLOT INITIATIVE

NS>                              Preface

     I like it.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Stand aside!  I write large messages.
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+++ r_940917 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (109)
To:      Ian Lin                                13 Sep 94 11:09:10
Subject: BIG BANG                               

 MG> You have spent how many years applying your formal education 
 MG> in physics to understanding the matter?

IL>  1.  The big bang theory and generally most stuff about space 
IL>  was NOT covered for me yet.

     What is your excuse for not searching it out yourself?

 MG> The bang was an inflation following a large enough quantum 
 MG> fluctuation in the energy level of nothing.  It is that simple 
 MG> but the math takes a little longer.     

IL> I didn't think "nothing" could have energy.

     It does.  Now you know.

 IL> Something from NOTHING? I just can't believe that.

 MG> What does belief have to do with anything?

IL>  Something from nothing -> illogical.  Belief is thinking.  It 
IL>  all boils down to personal belief based on logical facts.  I 
IL>  see no logic here so I can't believe it.

     Then you obviously need to learn what has been known for 
fifty years.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The Truth:  Get it fresh or not at all.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (110)
To:      Ian Lin                                13 Sep 94 11:17:10
Subject: creationism                            

 MG> This is the mica halo anomoly.  Fully discussed in 
 MG> Scientific American about 2 years ago.  Try your library.

IL>  Thanks! I may even have them NOW! I'll search for all from 
IL>  92 and maybe 91 that I have.  I might find it.  It would be 
IL>  great if you had it and told me which date the issue was, 
IL>  maybe a page number too!

     Learning to research is essential.  Why did you not expect 
me to type in the article also?  Hint, the December issue 
contains an index for the year.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Anything worth doing is worth overdoing.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (112)
To:      Ian Lin                                13 Sep 94 11:43:10
Subject: Joycelyn Elders                        

 MG> Aspin gets 42 people killed by his incompetence.

IL> How? I didn't know about this.

     You missed Somalia?

 MG> She is the epitome of a Clinton appointee, embodying all the 
 MG> talents Reno, Apsin and Bentsen lack.

IL> It's pathetic. Wanna move to Canada?

     June, July, Winter bothers me.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: None of my opinions are humble.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (118)
To:      All                                    13 Sep 94 15:01:10
Subject: Dershowitz: Gender/Vi 1/2              

 * Forwarded by MATT GIWER from the LAW conference.
 * Original from BOB HIRSCHFELD to ALL on 09-10-94.

United Features
[09.01.94]
 
Gender war often assails the truth
 
By Alan Dershowitz
 
In the gender war declared by radical feminists against men, the
weapon of choice has been the statistic. Rhetorical warriors have
thrown around an arsenal of data designed to show the world that
men assault, stalk, terrorize, and kill their wives, lovers, and
others  of the opposite sex in numbers that should frighten any
woman away  from ever trusting a man. As in other contexts,
the first casualty of  war is often truth. Now we are beginning
to see a reaction to the  statisti-babble that has distorted
gender discussions for so many  years.
 
New studies have raised serious doubts about what has become the
conventional wisdom in intergender violence. These recent studies
tend to show that violence between men and women is more of a
two-way street than previously supposed.  Like most reactions to
overreactions, these new studies should not be taken as gospel.
Their  statistics, like the statistics they seek to supplant, may
also hide  political agendas and must be subjected to rigorous
scientific testing  and retesting before they are allowed to
become the new  conventional wisdom.
 
 
But even before this testing process is completed, the new
studies  should be considered in the debate over intergender
violence.
 
 
Some cases in point:
 
In March of 1994, Secretary of Health and Human Services Donna
Shalala threw  out a statistic claiming that 20 percent to 30
percent of  all women who came to hospital emergency rooms came
"because of  physical abuse by their partners."   That statistic
quickly became the  conventional wisdom, repeated by women's
advocates, the media,  and policy makers. The only problem is
that it has no basis in fact. It  was derived from a single,
10-year-old survey of people admitted to  one inner-city hospital
in Detroit. In that survey, both men and  women were asked
whether they were ever "pushed around," "hit,"  or "kicked" by
their spouses, boyfriends, or girlfriends. They were  not asked
what brought them to the emergency room for this visit.  Twenty
percent of the men answered yes, and twenty-five percent  of the
women answered yes -- a far cry from the gender statistic tossed
out by Shalala.  Moreover, experts on violence point out that the
Detroit hospital is far from typical, since it treats a much
higher  proportion of people the unemployed, the poor, and those
who  cohabit without  being married who tend to be in abusive
relationships.
 
Other studies confirm the politically incorrect conclusion that
"women initiate violence against their male partners as often as
men  initiate violence against their female partners," according
to a  University of New Hampshire researcher who cites 30 such
studies.  These studies also show that "about half of all
domestic violence is  bidirectional, with both parties
participating in the aggression."  This contrasts sharply with
the statistics bandied about by some  women's  advocates which
purport to show that 94 percent of battered women  never hit
back.
 
The truth appears to be that violence within marriage and other
intimate relationships goes both ways. For example, the data for
gay  and lesbian couples show about the same rate of violence as
for  intergender couples.  But these more balanced statistics do
not serve  the political goals of the gender warriors who would
have us believe  that only women are victims and only men are
aggressors.
 
There is, of course, some truth to the widespread belief that men
are  more violent than women. In general, men do commit far more
crimes of violence than women do, but their primary victims tend
to  be other men, often strangers. It  is also true that when it
comes to  severe violence within families, men are  more often
the aggressors  and women more often the victims. But even the
statistics on  intergender murder the most serious form of
violence appear to be exaggerated. Both CNN and the Associated
Press have repeated  radical feminist  claims that 4,000 women a
year are murdered by  their current or former mates.  But the
Federal Bureau of  Investigation which keeps the crime statistics
for the nation puts the  number at between 1,300 and 1,400. Even
the number of women who kill their husbands or boyfriends is
sometimes exaggerated,  when it serves the political agendas of
those reporting the data.  FBI  statistics put that figure at
between 600 and 700.  Yet the National  Clearinghouse for Defense
of Battered Women puts out a statistic  claiming that between 800
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (170)
To:      Ian Lin                                14 Sep 94 00:23:10
Subject: big bang variation                     

IL>  Dark matter is supposed to be neutrinos, isn't it? 

     No.   Dark matter is an hypothesis.  There is no evidence it 
exists.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: "Give Corruption a Chance."  Matt Giwer
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (171)
To:      Ian Lin                                14 Sep 94 00:28:10
Subject: Big bang, evolution                    

 AM>  Absolutely correct because "time" itself is a product of 
 AM>  the big bang (or big expansion).  It is ludicrous to talk 
 AM>  about a "time" before the big bang.  The  three products of 
 AM>  the big bang were time, space, and matter/energy.

IL>  You've got to be joking.  Time is constant! I think those 
IL>  who were pushing the big bang theory, if that's what it now 
IL>  entails, went WAY too far.  I was surprised to hear that 
IL>  matter was CREATED from nothing in the Big Bang.  But TIME? 
IL>  Now I've heard it all!!
IL> 
IL>  It's utterly ludicrous and no more based in fact than "God 
IL>  did it!" And to think that I really had hope for some 
IL>  people.  :(

     You need to read up on the special theory of relativity 
without using the excuse it has not been covered in class as yet.  
You are about 70-80 years behind the times.  

     Just what is it that ever gave you the impression you have 
the slightest comprehension of basic physics?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: If the gods do not listen, what good are they?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (172)
To:      Frank Hay                              14 Sep 94 00:38:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark                     

FH>  The claim in John 3:16 is that Jesus was the _only_ 
FH>  begotten son of god.  That is clearly not the case as Psalms 
FH>  2:7 shows.

     But that good old "begot" has a specific meaning.

     That means there is a Mrs. God around some place.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy is not a civil right; it is a privledge.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (190)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           14 Sep 94 10:30:10
Subject: The citadel                            

 MG>  The attorney from Miami was on Mark Larsen's show last 
 MG>  year.  He had an affidavit with his personal knowledge of 
 MG>  events and he documented the lack of any record of the 
 MG>  arrest or disposition.

KP>          I heard the show and remain unconvinced Matt.  I 
KP>  heard nothing that came near proof.

     Then he can easily have his backside sued off.  For what it 
is worth, that has not happened.

KP> See ya the 20th!

     Where?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Reach out and offend someone.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (191)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           14 Sep 94 10:33:10
Subject: The citadel                            

 KP>         Now Matt - she hasn't admitted being a dyke yet!

 MG> You missed how she quashed her own prosecution when she was 
 MG> found with a minor girl in the parking lot of Masa Gallarie?

LG>           More on this -- please!

     There is a Miami attorney who is going public with the 
"common knowledge" in Miami.  That is one of the "well known" 
things about her.  Another is the drunk driving and resisting 
arrest charges against her that her office chose not to 
prosecute.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: It ain't charity with other people's money.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (201)
To:      Travis Beard                           14 Sep 94 11:43:10
Subject: 1 nation under god                     

 GR> Would Presbyterian's shoot at cops?  Hell I don't know.

TB>  The religion doesn't matter.  its the abusive action of the 
TB>  LEOs when they shot at the children.
TB> 
TB>  The evidence implies the ATF shot first with grenades.

     Not evidence, court testimony.  The only issue in court was 
the prosecution insisting upon calling them diversionary devices 
to avoid the negative connotation.

 TB> Self defense is also a legal response to deadly force.
 GR> 
 GR> You can't show the BATF were the ones using deadly force.

TB>  And since the place was razed by the FBI and much of the 
TB>  evidence was lost by the FBI you can't show the BD's shot 
TB>  first.

     Against court testimony.  The BATF came in shooting the 
dogs.  While not deadly against people the dogs didn't survive.

 GR> But let's say all the weapons were legal.  Does that give them the
 GR> right to refuse service of a warrant?  No it doesn't.

TB>  Again.  I will vote to aquit anybody who shoots and kills a 
TB>  LEO serving a no knock warrant.

     The Florida Supreme Court agrees with you -- when it is 
obviously unjustified, that leaving only the risk of flushing 
small amounts of drugs, not dealer amounts or guns that justify 
such service.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (202)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        14 Sep 94 11:51:10
Subject: A Polite Society                       

MW> I also don't think you can solve "society's" ills by giving
MW> everyone assault weapons.  That's a pretty scary option to

JB>  I don't think that many people are seriously saying "give 
JB>  everyone assault weapons" (BTW: Do you really know what one 
JB>  IS?).

     No one in Congress or in the media does.  Why should he be 
any different.     

MW> me.  I don't really want a gun in my house.  Statiscally, if
MW> anyone is ever shot with it, it will be me or one of my
MW> loved ones, not one of the "bad oguys."

JB>  I've seen evidence here and there that suggests that the 
JB>  study you refer to was a flawed one - I'll see if I can 
JB>  find where I read that.

     The study is correct; the HCI spin on it is wrong.  The 
study is simply tallying the "perp known to victim" on crime 
reports.  HCI tried rather successfully to sell the results as 
meaning family member.  In fact it covered everything from, "I 
saw him hanging out on the streets" to "Yeah, its the same guy 
who robbed me last week."  
     
     I do not wish to congratulate HCI for their successful spin 
doctoring.  They mainly provide lies to people who need no 
convincing.

JB>  We keep two firearms in our house, and my stepfather and 
JB>  father-in-law both have owned various kinds of firearms all 
JB>  of their lives, yet have never gotten hurt by either one.  
JB>  If you choose not to, great, fine.  But I choose to, for 
JB>  various reasons.

     At the moment I keep six suitable for home defense (three 
specifically bought for the purpose) and five others.  There has 
never been less than one at times up to around 20.  No one harmed 
in 28 years.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: That which does not destroy us makes us greater.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (210)
To:      All                                    14 Sep 94 13:12:10
Subject: Haitian Training Exer 1/2              

                 The Haitian Training Exercise
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/14>

     This is the third time I have written on the intention of
President Clinton to kill Haitians.  The situation has not
changed since the first time.  Clinton needs to buy the votes of
the Congressional Black Caucus and killing Haitians is the
easiest way to do that.
     The only thing that has changed from last time is that there
are more justifications for this killing.  The most preposterous
one that because months ago it was threatened without thinking it
through it has to be done now -- else the US (read Clinton) will
be seen as powerless.
     Why in the world this would be a consideration is beyond me.
It is not secret in the world that Clinton is powerless and
ineffective.  After Clinton's first international conference the
other participants left publically wondering to reporters who was
going to take the place of the US.  Smashing the Haitian
superpower is not likely to correct that impression.
     And look at what we have threatening Haiti.  About half the
Naval assets we used to smash the Japanese Fleet at Midway.
Consider there are two aircraft carriers when one aircraft from
one of them could overwhelm the entire Haitian Air Force.
     One grants that quasi real life exercises for the Navy are
few and far between and this is as good an exercise as any but
what rational person can believe this has anything more than
media value?  More to the point, the Haitian government is
laughing their backsides off at the waste of money as certainly
is every other government in the world.
     And if there is any laughing at the US it is at the
absurdity he was elected rather than as a world power.
     And consider the strategic and tactical genius of our
Commander in Chief.  Haiti needs no more intelligence assets than
a satellite dish to watch the US network news.  The assets, the
landing area, everything necessary to optimize resistance has
been spelled out by this administration.
     That brings up a minor problem that does not appear to
bother our Commander in Chief in the least.  Americans are going
to be killed.
     The American people are not as stupid as the President and
his fellow Democrats think.  This upcoming killing spree has a
73% disapproval rating.  The Democrats explanation of that is
that the reasons simply have not been explained to us peons
despite there having been nothing but justifications floated for
over a year.  None of them have sold.
     To correct that our President is going to go on TV on the
15th to explain it to us all.  After it is over we will have to
marvel at either the belief we can be sold by a rehash of all the
justifications tha have not sold or we will marvel at the
creativity in coming up with a new justification.
     There is a very unlikely possibility, that he will admit he
has a political debt to the Black Caucus.  The truth does not
come easy to him so this is not likely.
     In fact he is taking quite a political risk by going on the
air.  Unless he pulls off a very creative, new reason that will
sell to the public, he risks increasing the disapproval rating.
Now rest assured, Democrat Party regulars around the country are
poised to start calling and writing every Democrat in Congress so
that can declare victory for the President and start the invasion
before an honest poll can be taken.
     This is hardly speculation.  If you remember the same
procedure was followed by Ted Kennedy with his post
Chappequiddick speech, asking people if he should resign or
continue to serve.  He declared the people wanted him to stay
before the honest polls contradicted him.
     It is an old technique.  You will see it used again.  Watch
for the invasion in less than the seven days it will take to
conduct an honest poll.
     A related question is whether or not the President needs to
or should seek the concurrance of Congress.  The Democrats
concentrate on Grenada and Panama while the Republicans
concentrate on the Gulf War.  The both have their points.
     With regard to the Grenada and Panama examples those
depended upon surprise to minimize casualties.  The Gulf War
could not possibily have had any surprise to it.  It is obvious
the Haitian killing (it is almost impossible to consider this an
invasion or war) fits the Gulf War model as everything but the
operations plan has been given to the press.
     Does have to?  No.  But it appears prudent when facing the
likelihood of years if not decades of occupation that there be
some review of this commitment of US forces.
     Is there a US interest in Haiti?  Only in comparing the cost
of returning boat people against the cost of this trainging
exercise with live ammunition.
     We have no interest in democracy in Haiti any more than in
any other country in the world.  Were Haiti a super power or even
a power there would certainly be an interest in it being a
democracy.  But remember, we are not dealing with a civilized or
rational, much less educated people in Haiti.
     Haitians are more like to sacrifice a chicken and smear
themselves with its blood to elect their candidate rather than to
vote.  They are more likely to put a voodoo curse on the
political opposition than to campaign against him.  This is not
an exaggeration of the world view of the average Haitian citizen.
   [ Continued In Next Message... ]


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sind Sein Tochter Achtzehn?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (211)
To:      All                                    14 Sep 94 13:12:10
Subject: Haitian Training Exer 2/2              

   [ ...Continued From Previous Message ]

This is the way it is.
     Haiti is not a century behind the rest of the world, it is
in an alternate universe.  Both the European educated Duvaliers
dealt with the US by putting curses involving chickens on the
President at the time. Were they playing to the masses?  The
masses did not like either of them.  At least when Castro visited
the US he intended to eat the live chickens he tried to order
from room service.
     In any event folks, here it comes.  The defining moment in
US history is just around the corner.  Praise Clinton.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sind Sein Tochter Achtzehn?
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (212)
To:      Mark Stuckless                         14 Sep 94 13:23:10
Subject: Gun control                            

MS>  Don't be too hard on Ian...just because we aren't young 
MS>  enough to know everything like he does.  :-)
MS> 
MS>  I suspect that he's in high-school still and has swallowed 
MS>  the politically correct pills his teachers have been 
MS>  prescribing.   

     He is.  But his expertise is not limited to politics.  He 
has a definitive knowledge of physics also.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Play your state lottery.  Pay your fool tax.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (213)
To:      Scott Summers                          14 Sep 94 13:26:10
Subject: Hamburger and feces                    

SS>  Here's the deal.  I *think* I was the one who started this 
SS>  particular thread, and it went something like this.  When 
SS>  the folks started getting sick and dying from the Jack in 
SS>  the Box hamburgers the gov't issued a statement that it was 
SS>  E Coli (sp?) bacteria doing the dirty deed.  They further 
SS>  stated this was because the meat was "undercooked"  and 
SS>  because the meat contained "an unacceptable level of 
SS>  feces".  My statement was that if there is an unacceptable 
SS>  level, what follows is that there must be an *acceptable* 
SS>  level....  much as there is for hair, bug parts and other 
SS>  tasty goodies.  I'll be damned if I'm going to go research 
SS>  this question, partially because I don't think I want to 
SS>  know the answer.  

     I am not going to research it for you but the feces level 
comes from having to gut the cattle and it is inevitable that 
some fraction of the intestines are going to be split and feces 
released.  Proper procedure is to clean it up immediately but 
sterilization is not required.  Failure to clean it up (hosing 
down the floor) is a health code violation but inspectors can not 
be everywhere.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (214)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           14 Sep 94 13:28:10
Subject: hate\                                  

 -=> Quoting Ann Ross to Ian Lin <=-

 AR> Grimy makes it clear with all his graphic descriptions what he
 AR> really WANTS is for someone to show up and make it with him.

LG>          Are you offering me a hand job, Sweet Cakes?

     Don't forget to have two bags ready for when she shows up.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Even I am impressed.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (215)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           14 Sep 94 13:37:10
Subject: INTOLERANCE                            

LG>          According to the Associated Press, President Bill 
LG>          Clinton made his second appearance before a 
LG>          religious organization, this time the National 
LG>          Baptist Convention, USA, aand made an impassioned 
LG>          plea for "family values."
LG> 
LG>          Ralph Reed, executive director of the CHRISTIAN 
LG>          COALITION, said he applauds the president for 
LG>          "using religious values and using religious 
LG>          language."
LG> 
LG>          Comments?
LG> 
LG>          Or are you going to ignore this too, you insipid 
LG>          bag of garbage?

     Actually he was appearing at the Comedy Club and doing his 
Dan Quayle imitation.  
     
     It is election season, remember?  Democrats always turn 
conservative in election seasons.  It gets votes.  Strangely 
voters believe them every time.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sometimes the Middle Class must be destroyed to save it
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (216)
To:      All                                    14 Sep 94 13:48:10
Subject: Haiti revelation                       

     Leon Pannetta, 9/14, Today Show.

     "Haiti is a threat to the security of the United States."

     There you have it direct from a mouthy horse.  

     He also said that is the case Clinton will be making in his 
speech.  What he did not say is the qualifier, "IF this trial 
balloon reasons sells to the public."


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The tuna doesn't taste the same without the dolphin.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (217)
To:      Bob Sillyheimer                        14 Sep 94 14:04:10
Subject: OSCILLATION                            

BS>  Consider "escape velocity".  A rocket that attains escape 
BS>  velocity will escape the gravitational pull of the earth 
BS>  and go into outer space.  And it is not pulled into outer 
BS>  space by the gravitational attraction of the sun or 
BS>  anything else.  A rocket that does not attain escape 
BS>  velocity will fall back to earth.
BS> 
BS>  If matter attains "escape velocity", the universe will 
BS>  expand forever.  The "escape velocity" needed on Jupiter is 
BS>  much higher than that required on the smaller earth.  Escape 
BS>  velocity depends on planet mass.  The escape velocity of 
BS>  matter in the universe also depends on the mass attracting 
BS>  matter.

     Actually it is the opposite but it is a common 
misunderstanding.  The escape velocity for both Earth and Jupiter 
to leave the solar system is the same.  The change in escape 
velocity would be higher for earth.  The amount energy required 
to achieve that change in escape velocity would be greater for 
Jupiter because of the greater mass.

     Example the escape velocity for an object to leave earth is 
the same for on pound as for one ton.  The energy required is two 
thousand times greater for the one ton load.  

     A fun little side effect of this is that the energy to get 
from the surface to low earth orbit is the same at to get from 
low earth orbit to escape the gravitational pull of the galaxy.  
That meaning once we are in orbit, we are half way to anywhere or 
that getting to orbit is half way to anywhere -- albeit slowly.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: It ain't charity with other people's money.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (218)
To:      Charles Hill                           14 Sep 94 14:14:10
Subject: Rebel rock                             

CH> Amendment XIV, section 3:

CH>  "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in 
CH>  Congress, or Elector of President and Vice-President, or 
CH>  hold any office, civil or military, under the United 
CH>  States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an 
CH>  oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of any 
CH>  State Legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer 
CH>  of any State, to support the Constitution of the United 
CH>  States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion 
CH>  against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies 
CH>  thereof."

     And I thank you for this point as it establishes the 
precident that an oath taken once is good forever.  

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Some times I wonder why it took Jason so long to snap.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (219)
To:      Alan Macphail                          14 Sep 94 14:18:10
Subject: Scientific dating.... 1/2              

AM> Quoting William Childress
AM> Talking to All
AM> Subject Scientific dating.... 1/2
AM> Dated 21 Aug 94  10:20:00

 WC>  While carbon dating for objects older than about 30,000 
 WC>  years, uranium-thorium dating may be possible for objects 
 WC>  up to 500,000 years old.  

AM>     You are houst on your own pitard.  The above statement 
AM>  could not have come from your stated source, and is, in 
AM>  fact, the product of your own selective editing.  IT IS NOT 
AM>  AN COMPLETE SENTENCE.  Youy have misquoted a source and, 
AM>  therefore, lied again.

     Not only that, it is wrong.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sind Sein Tochter Achtzehn?
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+++ r_940920 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (3)
To:      All                                    15 Sep 94 16:32:10
Subject: They're baaack                         

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to RICHARD DONOVAN in the POLITICS conference.

RD> From: HBCSC002@HUEY.CSUN.EDU     
RD> SUBJECT:US Town Invaded at night - USMC
RD> Organization: Calstate University Northridge

RD> [ Article crossposted from alt.fan.rush-limbaugh ]
RD> [ Author was john moore ]
RD> [ Posted on 8 Sep 1994 02:46:42 GMT ]

RD> Chilling report from the August 3 issue of the
RD> Augusta Chronicle of Augusta Georgia. Tybee Island,
RD> at the mouth of the Savannah River, was invaded late
RD> in the night sometime last July. 300 Marines from the
RD> 22nd Marine Exepeditionary Unit at Camp Lejeune descended
RD> in black helicopters on the unwary townspeople.

RD> According to Lt. Jeff Jurgensen at Camp Lejeune the late
RD> night operation was designed to "provide the Marines the
RD> opportunity to practice" evacuating US citizens who might
RD> be held against their will. Lt. Jurgensen said flyers were
RD> distributed about two hours before the invasion began but
RD> none of the flyers have so-far been recovered.

RD>  Mallory Pearce, a resident of Tybee described the event as 
RD>  a "real invasion".  He continued "The housetop was rattling 
RD>  a tree branch fell in my yard and troops came rushing 
RD>  through my property with guns drawn ...  They were hiding in 
RD>  bushes with weapons.  ...  I went outside and told the people 
RD>  to stop this, that it was tearing up my property.  One of 
RD>  them handed me a claims sheet..." When Mr.  Pearce told them 
RD>  they were violating the Constitution he was told to "get 
RD>  out of a restricted area"

     Amazing!  I thought it was impossible to violate the 3rd 
amendment these days.  Or maybe it is the 5th, with simple use of 
property without compenstation.  

     Unless people were actually evacuated (hopefully volunteers 
or soldiers) then it sounds like that was certainly NOT the 
objective of the exercise.  Rather it sounds more like securing 
an area with US construction and such.  Certainly hostages are 
not held in private homes over a wide area.

     Counterinsurgency training or gun search preparations 
perhaps.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Life's purpose is the other SOB dying for his beliefs.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (140)
To:      Jim Higgins                            17 Sep 94 18:51:10
Subject: 1996 prediction                        

 MG> 1996.  
 MG> Republicans nominate Manson as candidate for President.
 MG> Manson loses to Clinton 51 to 49.  

JH> More like Manson wins 57 to 43.   ;-)

     I felt the truth would be too incredible.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Scruples taste best with garlic butter.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (146)
To:      Jj Judkins                             17 Sep 94 19:10:10
Subject: cadet Shannon                          

 KP>  I have no problem with women having ANY job, IF they meet 
 KP>  the same, TRADITIONAL standards as men have! And do the 
 KP>  SAME work!

JJ>  T hat is the way I feel.  If they can do the job, fine, but 
JJ>  absolutely no special treatment.  Unfortunately women at 
JJ>  work will always have something available that men will 
JJ>  never have...Pregnacy Leave.    To be fair, men should be 
JJ>  allowed the option to take off when their wives are 
JJ>  pregnant.  The way it is couldn't it be considered 
JJ>  discrimination?

     When it comes to women in the military getting pregnant it 
should be treated no different than a man shoothing himself in 
the foot to avoid combat.  It is a self inflicted wound to avoid 
combat.  It was disgusting to read of all the cowardly women 
prior to the Gulf War making their weekly trips to the base 
hospital for pregnancy tests.  

     Anyone turning up pregnant after August of 1990 should have 
been court mashalled.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I do not have an ego.  I am right.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (167)
To:      Phillip Jones                          18 Sep 94 09:09:00
Subject: Crime Bill Surprise!                   

MG>      Thank you.  I have heard a claim there are only 19
MG> pages of  material that directly address crime in the bill
MG> and that does  sound like a lot of reading for little
MG> benefit.  However, do you  have a phone number?

PJ> 803-554-2498

     Appreciated.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy is not a civil right; it is a privledge.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (168)
To:      All                                    18 Sep 94 09:09:00
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                         Invading Haiti
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/16>

     On September 15th, 1994 at 9pm Eastern Standard Time we
heard President William Jefferson Clinton declare the invasion of
Haiti was in the interest of the security of the United States of
America.  He then went on to define our security being
threatened by the way Haitians were treating Haitians.
     We were left with the burning question.  Is he the president
of the United States or of the Dominican Republic?  I can see the
Dominican Republic being threatened by a lawless government in
Haiti but some how I can not imagine laying in survival gear here
in Tampa.
     Given the massive assets being committed to Haiti I had the
passing idea that he would announce at 9pm that the invasion of
Cuba had begun at 8pm in a brilliant military coup of
misdirection.  I was of course not disappointed.  He repeated his
slacked jawed bluster against Haiti.
     He did not mention the invasion was part of the deal with
the Black Caucus in Congress for their support of the crime bill.
He did not mention that the other justification was an attempt to
salvage his own credibility after his irresponsible threats.
     He did repeat his naive claim that the military leaders of
Haiti had broken their promise to leave.  Anyone who has followed
Presient Clinton's track record knows he is an expert in
identifying broken promises.  It would appear he is sanctioning a
military take over against himself for breaking promises.
     He did recount horror stories while failing to demonstrate a
one of them.  Much like the horror stories of Iraquis actions in
Kuwait turning out premature babies to ship the incubators to
Iraq he recounted executions of orphans.  Of course with a
straight face he expected us to believe him or perhaps be
believes it himself.
     And then, taking a cue from dozens of 1950s SciFi flicks and
from the recent Dolph Longhren movie he gave a message to the
Haitian people, We Come In Peace.  Now perhaps those 1950s movies
are still first run in Arkansas, perhaps they are cult classics,
but that does not reduce the sheer melodramatic corn of the line.
I do have a taste for B movies but that line is straight from
Plan Nine From Outer Space.
     OK, Haitians, we are coming in peace with half the assets we
used to turn around the war at sea in the Pacific in WW II.  If
we were not coming in peace we would be bringing some serious
assets to bear, like the entire Atlantic Fleet.  But you can tell
by two carrier battle groups (26 ships and four submarines) that
we come in peace and mean you no harm.
     You will be convinced we come in peace when you see a
thousand paratroopers falling from the sky.  When your country is
under the control of armed American troops you will know we have
come in peace.
     This boy is for real?  This a kid pretending to be a comic
book superhero.
     Enough.  All the fish in the barrel are dead.  I used an
assault weapon.
     This was the most "please like me" speech I have ever heard
from any politician in my life.  If I were to regard all speech
subject matter as equal and simply judge quality it is some place
between the Martin Van Buren innaugural address and a high school
Salutorian address.
     I will note by its absense any reference to "I" have
decided, "I" have directed, "I" have done anything.  It is
obvious "I" did not do a damn thing and is therefore not
responsible for any outcome.  He could not even deliver "your
time is up" with a "make my day" or "I'll be back" conviction.
     A dull monotone lacking in even the pretense of emotion or
conviction is a "please like me" speech.  The only thing good
about the speech was its brevity.  There is only so much NBC
quality programming that is acceptable on the airwaves.
     Whatever his prompting for the tone to set it went awry
under his skillful implementation.  Somber?  Decisive?  Grave?
No matter what the prompt it came out juvenile and stupid.  Even
Fearless Leader can do better than this for Boris and Natasha.
     But in any event we have the word of the mouthy horse.  We
are invading Haiti because our national security is threatened by
the way Haitians are treating Haitian.  I do not explain 'em.  I
only report 'em.  We have the word of The Clinton as to the
gospel truth of the reason for this killing of Haitians and the
loss of American lives.  And above all remember, We Come In
Peace.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< *                Barney Must Die!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (169)
To:      Scott Summers                          18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Welfare and the Cold                   

 MG>      No one is required to accept charity.  It is completely 
 MG> voluntary.  They may seek out other means such as begging on the 
 MG> streets, cleaning toilets, or whatever else their hearts desire.  

SS>  I know this is probably a radical thought....  but they 
SS>  might even have to resort to finding jobs.  

     That idea never crossed my mind.

SS>  Do you want to argue that our military has *not* been 
SS>  shafted over the years? We have a fed judge down here 
SS>  (William Wayne Justice) who ruled that the prison overflow 
SS>  can't be temporarly housed in tents because that would be " 
SS>  inhumane".  

 MG>       What I fail to see is a requirement to support them in 
 MG>  a single family dwelling where they want to live and with 
 MG>  food and utilities all in the most expensive form it can be 
 MG>  procured.

 MG>      Where did this burden come from?

SS> The Great Society?  

     Bleeding heart liberals started it.  Those who jumped to 
feed off the public trough providing the services work to 
perpetuate it.  It is unpleasant to say the least.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro:  Hope over experience.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (170)
To:      Jj Judkins                             18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: 3/3re:Mt.Carmel                        

JJ>   Bad is just a little mild.  Most people I know considered him EVIL..

 DN> DV> The gov't knew those children were in there, but yet they
 DN> DV> fired indescriminately without acquiring a target.
JJ>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

JJ>  Did not intelligence already confirm that the children were 
JJ>  bunkered in the hard sites, or what passed for bunkers in 
JJ>  the compound?

     No.  If you heard the government make that claim then they 
may or may not have had intelligence to that effect but it was 
wrong.

 DN> Now that's interesting.  Didn't they try and use gas in the 
 DN> final assault? The gov't did that, too.  Thanks for 
 DN> mentioning that.

JJ>  It seems that people are forgetting that when Koresh began 
JJ>  arming his cult that he was stepping over a line.  This man 
JJ>  was not collecting hunting weapons.  This guy was going to 
JJ>  resist the government or he would have never had those 
JJ>  weapons.

     There is ZERO evidence of that.  There is only the 
government claim of it.  There is plentiful evidence nearly 
everything the government has said about the situation was a lie 
starting with the perjured warrant.

 DV> "Fanaticism ?" Upon what do you base your allegation ?

JJ>  This person was a threat to the people and the government.  
JJ>  If he hadn't been stopped then it would have ended up with 
JJ>  a lot more people getting hurt..  Yes he was a fanatic, and 
JJ>  a very dangerous one.

     Again, that is only a government claim with no evidence 
whatsoever to support it.  And the sheriff and the neighbors tell 
exactly the opposite story.  They found absolutely no problem and 
no reason for concern and considered them good neighbors.
     
     It would be good for you to take a look at the actual 
evidence rather than buying into the propaganda demonization of 
Koresh that was released by the government.  The government's 
actions in the case were criminal.  All the senior personnel 
involved were given either early retirement or permanent 
reassignment to where they can not be involved in such an 
operation again.

     I do not think that is enough.  Perjury and murder should 
not get off so easily.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (171)
To:      Jj Judkins                             18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: cadet Shannon                          

 KP> cling to maintain that Mz. Faulkner be held to a physical standard
 KP> only 40% of that of the male cadets, just as women are in the U.S.
 KP> military and military academies. FOURTY PERCENT!

JJ>  I wonder, does this mean that in a combat situation a 
JJ>  female pilot would be expected kill 40 percent of a enemy 
JJ>  fighter, 40 percent of a tank?  Would a infantry woman be 
JJ>  only expected to kill 40 percent of an enemy soldier?

     As a tank driver she would be expected to hold her water 2.5 
times longer -- unless she is turned on by self catherization.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<:         The Purple Pedophile must die!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (172)
To:      David Duckworth                        18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: cats and learned behavior              

DD>  'Only lately have we begun embarking upon a fourth way of 
DD>  looking at the world and our place in it.  A new view of 
DD>  Life.'
DD> 
DD>  'If we evolved, one must ask, are we then not like other 
DD>   mammals in many ways? Ways we can learn from?  And where 
DD>   we differ, should that not also teach us?'
DD> 
DD>  'Murder, rape, the most tragic forms of mental 
DD>  illnesses-all of these we are now finding among the animals 
DD>  as well as ourselves.  Brainpower only exaggerates the 
DD>  horror of these dyfunctions in us.  It is not the root 
DD>  cause.  The cause if the darkness in which we have lived.  
DD>  It is ignorance.'

     Brin never did bother knowing any real science before 
writing.  This only demonstrates it.

DD>  'But there is one more reason to protect other species.  
DD>  Perhaps we are the first to talk and think and build and 
DD>  aspire, but we may not be the last.  Others may follow us 
DD>  in this adventure.'

     If we have 20 million years to wait or unless we do it for 
them in about 100 years.

DD>  'Someday we may be judged on just how well we served, when 
DD>  alone we were Earth's caretakers.' 

     Only in the most primitive form of SciFi is there anything 
like that idea.

DD> From:  'The Uplift War' POSTSCRIPT AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
DD> Author: David Brin

     And Brin does suck as an SF writer.  That is why he writes 
SciFi.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (173)
To:      Ian Lin                                18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Dean Musholtz                          

 DN> Consider that Clinton never smoked cigarettes. Consider also that as

IL> Consider that he does smoke cigars.

     But, as with marijuana, he doesn't inhale.

 DN> propaganda movie 'Reefer Madness' and I've seen it on 'Dragnet.'

IL>  You've seen it on Dragnet? And this is your substantial 
IL>  evidence, a movie?! Dean, you really are a Mush-brain.

     You are learning about Deano very quickly.  No matter what 
you try or say or do, he will not improve.  When in a corner he 
will vanish for a week or two then come back and start from the 
beginning as though nothing had happened.  Or is it Meriweather 
who does that?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (174)
To:      Ian Lin                                18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Stupid Feds                            

 TT> The EPA is a runaway beer wagon.  I say abolish the EPA.              

 PW> I agree and would add many other agencies that rip us off and/or
 PW> take our freedoms.  Don't forget to vote in November Tom.

IL>  I think the EPA should be revised, not abolished.  Ignoring 
IL>  the environment is deadly.  That's what the EPA is here to 
IL>  prevent.  Whether or not they're doing the job right is 
IL>  another question but to remove the agency is a mistake.

     How about if we simply ship it to Canada so you can get the 
benefits of a turnkey EPA operation.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (175)
To:      Ian Lin                                18 Sep 94 09:10:00
Subject: Wacko in Waco                          

 GR> Nobody knocked on the door of the Koresh compound and yelled, "Drop
 GR> your Bibles, and come out with your hands up".

 JH> And nobody ever served the warrant either.

IL> Now why isn't the media jumping up and down over THAT?

     The first and last media type who asked a hard question at a 
press briefing during the standoff was immediately arrested.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I do not have an ego.  I am right.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (176)
To:      Phillip Jones                          18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Crime Bill Surprise!                   

MG>      Thank you.  I have heard a claim there are only 19
MG> pages of  material that directly address crime in the bill
MG> and that does  sound like a lot of reading for little
MG> benefit.  However, do you  have a phone number?

PJ> 803-554-2498

     Appreciated.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy is not a civil right; it is a privledge.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (177)
To:      All                                    18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                         Invading Haiti
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/16>

     On September 15th, 1994 at 9pm Eastern Standard Time we
heard President William Jefferson Clinton declare the invasion of
Haiti was in the interest of the security of the United States of
America.  He then went on to define our security being
threatened by the way Haitians were treating Haitians.
     We were left with the burning question.  Is he the president
of the United States or of the Dominican Republic?  I can see the
Dominican Republic being threatened by a lawless government in
Haiti but some how I can not imagine laying in survival gear here
in Tampa.
     Given the massive assets being committed to Haiti I had the
passing idea that he would announce at 9pm that the invasion of
Cuba had begun at 8pm in a brilliant military coup of
misdirection.  I was of course not disappointed.  He repeated his
slacked jawed bluster against Haiti.
     He did not mention the invasion was part of the deal with
the Black Caucus in Congress for their support of the crime bill.
He did not mention that the other justification was an attempt to
salvage his own credibility after his irresponsible threats.
     He did repeat his naive claim that the military leaders of
Haiti had broken their promise to leave.  Anyone who has followed
Presient Clinton's track record knows he is an expert in
identifying broken promises.  It would appear he is sanctioning a
military take over against himself for breaking promises.
     He did recount horror stories while failing to demonstrate a
one of them.  Much like the horror stories of Iraquis actions in
Kuwait turning out premature babies to ship the incubators to
Iraq he recounted executions of orphans.  Of course with a
straight face he expected us to believe him or perhaps be
believes it himself.
     And then, taking a cue from dozens of 1950s SciFi flicks and
from the recent Dolph Longhren movie he gave a message to the
Haitian people, We Come In Peace.  Now perhaps those 1950s movies
are still first run in Arkansas, perhaps they are cult classics,
but that does not reduce the sheer melodramatic corn of the line.
I do have a taste for B movies but that line is straight from
Plan Nine From Outer Space.
     OK, Haitians, we are coming in peace with half the assets we
used to turn around the war at sea in the Pacific in WW II.  If
we were not coming in peace we would be bringing some serious
assets to bear, like the entire Atlantic Fleet.  But you can tell
by two carrier battle groups (26 ships and four submarines) that
we come in peace and mean you no harm.
     You will be convinced we come in peace when you see a
thousand paratroopers falling from the sky.  When your country is
under the control of armed American troops you will know we have
come in peace.
     This boy is for real?  This a kid pretending to be a comic
book superhero.
     Enough.  All the fish in the barrel are dead.  I used an
assault weapon.
     This was the most "please like me" speech I have ever heard
from any politician in my life.  If I were to regard all speech
subject matter as equal and simply judge quality it is some place
between the Martin Van Buren innaugural address and a high school
Salutorian address.
     I will note by its absense any reference to "I" have
decided, "I" have directed, "I" have done anything.  It is
obvious "I" did not do a damn thing and is therefore not
responsible for any outcome.  He could not even deliver "your
time is up" with a "make my day" or "I'll be back" conviction.
     A dull monotone lacking in even the pretense of emotion or
conviction is a "please like me" speech.  The only thing good
about the speech was its brevity.  There is only so much NBC
quality programming that is acceptable on the airwaves.
     Whatever his prompting for the tone to set it went awry
under his skillful implementation.  Somber?  Decisive?  Grave?
No matter what the prompt it came out juvenile and stupid.  Even
Fearless Leader can do better than this for Boris and Natasha.
     But in any event we have the word of the mouthy horse.  We
are invading Haiti because our national security is threatened by
the way Haitians are treating Haitian.  I do not explain 'em.  I
only report 'em.  We have the word of The Clinton as to the
gospel truth of the reason for this killing of Haitians and the
loss of American lives.  And above all remember, We Come In
Peace.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< *                Barney Must Die!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      Scott Summers                          18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Welfare and the Cold                   

 MG>      No one is required to accept charity.  It is completely 
 MG> voluntary.  They may seek out other means such as begging on the 
 MG> streets, cleaning toilets, or whatever else their hearts desire.  

SS>  I know this is probably a radical thought....  but they 
SS>  might even have to resort to finding jobs.  

     That idea never crossed my mind.

SS>  Do you want to argue that our military has *not* been 
SS>  shafted over the years? We have a fed judge down here 
SS>  (William Wayne Justice) who ruled that the prison overflow 
SS>  can't be temporarly housed in tents because that would be " 
SS>  inhumane".  

 MG>       What I fail to see is a requirement to support them in 
 MG>  a single family dwelling where they want to live and with 
 MG>  food and utilities all in the most expensive form it can be 
 MG>  procured.

 MG>      Where did this burden come from?

SS> The Great Society?  

     Bleeding heart liberals started it.  Those who jumped to 
feed off the public trough providing the services work to 
perpetuate it.  It is unpleasant to say the least.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro:  Hope over experience.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (179)
To:      Jj Judkins                             18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: 3/3re:Mt.Carmel                        

JJ>   Bad is just a little mild.  Most people I know considered him EVIL..

 DN> DV> The gov't knew those children were in there, but yet they
 DN> DV> fired indescriminately without acquiring a target.
JJ>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

JJ>  Did not intelligence already confirm that the children were 
JJ>  bunkered in the hard sites, or what passed for bunkers in 
JJ>  the compound?

     No.  If you heard the government make that claim then they 
may or may not have had intelligence to that effect but it was 
wrong.

 DN> Now that's interesting.  Didn't they try and use gas in the 
 DN> final assault? The gov't did that, too.  Thanks for 
 DN> mentioning that.

JJ>  It seems that people are forgetting that when Koresh began 
JJ>  arming his cult that he was stepping over a line.  This man 
JJ>  was not collecting hunting weapons.  This guy was going to 
JJ>  resist the government or he would have never had those 
JJ>  weapons.

     There is ZERO evidence of that.  There is only the 
government claim of it.  There is plentiful evidence nearly 
everything the government has said about the situation was a lie 
starting with the perjured warrant.

 DV> "Fanaticism ?" Upon what do you base your allegation ?

JJ>  This person was a threat to the people and the government.  
JJ>  If he hadn't been stopped then it would have ended up with 
JJ>  a lot more people getting hurt..  Yes he was a fanatic, and 
JJ>  a very dangerous one.

     Again, that is only a government claim with no evidence 
whatsoever to support it.  And the sheriff and the neighbors tell 
exactly the opposite story.  They found absolutely no problem and 
no reason for concern and considered them good neighbors.
     
     It would be good for you to take a look at the actual 
evidence rather than buying into the propaganda demonization of 
Koresh that was released by the government.  The government's 
actions in the case were criminal.  All the senior personnel 
involved were given either early retirement or permanent 
reassignment to where they can not be involved in such an 
operation again.

     I do not think that is enough.  Perjury and murder should 
not get off so easily.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (180)
To:      Jj Judkins                             18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: cadet Shannon                          

 KP> cling to maintain that Mz. Faulkner be held to a physical standard
 KP> only 40% of that of the male cadets, just as women are in the U.S.
 KP> military and military academies. FOURTY PERCENT!

JJ>  I wonder, does this mean that in a combat situation a 
JJ>  female pilot would be expected kill 40 percent of a enemy 
JJ>  fighter, 40 percent of a tank?  Would a infantry woman be 
JJ>  only expected to kill 40 percent of an enemy soldier?

     As a tank driver she would be expected to hold her water 2.5 
times longer -- unless she is turned on by self catherization.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<:         The Purple Pedophile must die!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (181)
To:      David Duckworth                        18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: cats and learned behavior              

DD>  'Only lately have we begun embarking upon a fourth way of 
DD>  looking at the world and our place in it.  A new view of 
DD>  Life.'
DD> 
DD>  'If we evolved, one must ask, are we then not like other 
DD>   mammals in many ways? Ways we can learn from?  And where 
DD>   we differ, should that not also teach us?'
DD> 
DD>  'Murder, rape, the most tragic forms of mental 
DD>  illnesses-all of these we are now finding among the animals 
DD>  as well as ourselves.  Brainpower only exaggerates the 
DD>  horror of these dyfunctions in us.  It is not the root 
DD>  cause.  The cause if the darkness in which we have lived.  
DD>  It is ignorance.'

     Brin never did bother knowing any real science before 
writing.  This only demonstrates it.

DD>  'But there is one more reason to protect other species.  
DD>  Perhaps we are the first to talk and think and build and 
DD>  aspire, but we may not be the last.  Others may follow us 
DD>  in this adventure.'

     If we have 20 million years to wait or unless we do it for 
them in about 100 years.

DD>  'Someday we may be judged on just how well we served, when 
DD>  alone we were Earth's caretakers.' 

     Only in the most primitive form of SciFi is there anything 
like that idea.

DD> From:  'The Uplift War' POSTSCRIPT AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
DD> Author: David Brin

     And Brin does suck as an SF writer.  That is why he writes 
SciFi.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (182)
To:      Ian Lin                                18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Dean Musholtz                          

 DN> Consider that Clinton never smoked cigarettes. Consider also that as

IL> Consider that he does smoke cigars.

     But, as with marijuana, he doesn't inhale.

 DN> propaganda movie 'Reefer Madness' and I've seen it on 'Dragnet.'

IL>  You've seen it on Dragnet? And this is your substantial 
IL>  evidence, a movie?! Dean, you really are a Mush-brain.

     You are learning about Deano very quickly.  No matter what 
you try or say or do, he will not improve.  When in a corner he 
will vanish for a week or two then come back and start from the 
beginning as though nothing had happened.  Or is it Meriweather 
who does that?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (183)
To:      Ian Lin                                18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Stupid Feds                            

 TT> The EPA is a runaway beer wagon.  I say abolish the EPA.              

 PW> I agree and would add many other agencies that rip us off and/or
 PW> take our freedoms.  Don't forget to vote in November Tom.

IL>  I think the EPA should be revised, not abolished.  Ignoring 
IL>  the environment is deadly.  That's what the EPA is here to 
IL>  prevent.  Whether or not they're doing the job right is 
IL>  another question but to remove the agency is a mistake.

     How about if we simply ship it to Canada so you can get the 
benefits of a turnkey EPA operation.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (184)
To:      Ian Lin                                18 Sep 94 09:13:00
Subject: Wacko in Waco                          

 GR> Nobody knocked on the door of the Koresh compound and yelled, "Drop
 GR> your Bibles, and come out with your hands up".

 JH> And nobody ever served the warrant either.

IL> Now why isn't the media jumping up and down over THAT?

     The first and last media type who asked a hard question at a 
press briefing during the standoff was immediately arrested.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I do not have an ego.  I am right.

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+++ r_940922 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (255)
To:      Scott Summers                          18 Sep 94 09:35:10
Subject: 1/3RE:MT.CARMEL                        

SS>  MG>       It may be the spark the revolution.
SS>  MG> 
SS>  MG>       This government has to be stopped from its current 
SS>  MG>  path.  It is that simple.  One way or another it will be.

SS> Agreed.

SS>  Matt, call 1-800-932-9888 and ask them to send you 
SS>  information.  I think you might be interested.

SS> P.S. This isn't Libertarians.

     I'll take a look although the Libertarians are saying almost 
the same thing these days.  Schulman's latest is hardly less than 
a call for it.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (256)
To:      Travis Beard                           18 Sep 94 09:37:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

TB>  MG>  Sorry about that folks.  It just happened.  9/12 a small 
TB>  MG>  aircraft crashed on the White House lawn.  It was not shot 
TB>  MG>  down.  The pilot died.  Had he the mind he could have had a 
TB>  MG>  hundred pounds of dynamite with an impact detonator and 
TB>  MG>  aimed a little better and hit the White House.
TB>  MG> 
TB>  MG>  Are there any further questions?

TB> Why wasn't Limbaugh on the plane?  :)

     The plane had to get off of the ground first. 


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (257)
To:      Scott Summers                          18 Sep 94 09:40:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

SS>  MG>       Sorry about that folks.  It just happened.  9/12 a 
SS>  MG>  small aircraft crashed on the White House lawn.  It was not 
SS>  MG>  shot down.  The pilot died.  Had he the mind he could have 
SS>  MG>  had a hundred pounds of dynamite with an impact detonator 
SS>  MG>  and aimed a little better and hit the White House.

SS>  MG>      Are there any further questions?

SS> Yeah, is it true that was the Haitian Air Force going after Slick?

     There was the rumor but if true they have just used up all 
of their assets.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (258)
To:      Mark Gibson                            18 Sep 94 09:43:10
Subject: Deanie & Willie: pathetic              

MG>  MG>      It appears we are being treated as an unsanitary landfill.

MG> Hehehehe.

MG>  Maybe we should create a special Echo for Deanie and 
MG>  Willie.  We could call it "CESSPOOL".

     They do share a lot of characteristics chief of which is the 
inability to reason.
     


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (259)
To:      Lynn Wallace                           18 Sep 94 09:44:10
Subject: ou governmnet, cont                    

LW>  We cannot expect informed decisions to be made by people of 
LW>  this sort.  I have seen polls reflect attitudes that are 
LW>  patently false during recent history - for example, 70+% of 
LW>  Americans expected their taxes to increase significantly as 
LW>  a result of Clinton's economic package in 1993.  This was 
LW>  not reflective of reality.

     I don't know where you have been but if 70% or more are part 
of buying gasoline it was certainly true that not all of them 
expected what they got.  I have a list of the new taxes around 
here some place I am certain but rest assured, everyone's taxes 
did go up.  

     That it did not ruin the economy is simply that no one was 
correctly predicting the strength of the 1992 recovery.  It was 
strong enough to withstand the new taxes and still be a recovery 
even though it is the weakest since WW II.  Who said Billie Jeff 
can't do nothin'?

LW>  The vast majority of opinions I hear expressed on talk 
LW>  radio (and here) are not based in fact but in flimsy dogma, 
LW>  or outright untruths.

     You might list some you think are untrue as you apparently 
to not understand tax increases or at least you are artificially 
limiting your expectations to income taxes.

LW>  It'd be okay if people disagreed with me (not just here) 
LW>  strictly on idealogical grounds.  But I find far too many 
LW>  people who simply do not know the truth of any situation - 
LW>  I'm talking about verifiable facts here - and draw firm 
LW>  opinions anyway.

     I am perfectly willing to address whatever you would like to 
talk about either way but it will by my political philosophy not 
Conservative, not Republican.

LW>  Actually, she is well-hated by the relative minority of 
LW>  conservative Utahns in her district.  They don't care how 
LW>  hard she works or how many gestures of sincerity she makes.  
LW>  (The truth doesn't matter to them either.)

     It sounds rather like she is breaking a cardinal rule of the 
LDS going back well over a century, don't piss off the central 
government.  The truly conservative have the Federal repression 
well fixed in mind as well as its interference in their freedom 
of religion and what they consider the perversion of their 
revelation.  I am referring to their surrender to the US Army to 
avoid combat and occupation and the termination of polygamy as a 
condition of statehood, an a priori violation of the 1st 
Amendment.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (260)
To:      Lynn Wallace                           18 Sep 94 10:02:10
Subject: our government                         

LW> MG>  So which is he going to vote for?  90% are going 
LW> MG>  to vote NO.  It may have consequences for their people, but 
LW> MG>  damn, aren't they going to be happy to get that Post Office 
LW> MG>  they have been asking for.  He can always bring up the 
LW> MG>  issue after re-election, he will get re-elected.

LW>  What you say, at least the part that makes sense, is true.  
LW>  I don't act like there aren't problems with the way our 
LW>  system works, and we should try to cut the pork where 
LW>  feasible.  But that doesn't change the fact that most of 
LW>  our leaders (at least at the national level) work very 
LW>  hard.  The honest ones, and they do exist, are to be 
LW>  commended and deserve to be respected.

     The situation is very simple and straightforward.  When all 
the pols line up at the feeding trough it is nearly impossible to 
stay on the low fat diet.  Keep in mind these folks are no more 
motivated by the good of the country than are the voters.  They 
are motivated by competition and winning just as the voters are 
motivated by their party's candidate winning, to hell with the 
country.

LW> MG>  Politicians make decisions based on their intrests, IF 
LW> MG>  there is enough interest on a particular issue then they 
LW> MG>  are to forced to vote on the side of the interest.  If all 
LW> MG>  politicians LISTENED to their people, or their people 
LW> MG>  forced him/her to listen to them, then they would be doing 
LW> MG>  their job.  That is why it is called the House of 
LW> MG>  *Representatives*- they are supposed to represent US.

LW>  Everything a sane human does is in his/her interests.

     When you hear a politician say it, it means for their own 
re-election.  It is called indirection.

LW>  Frankly, I think it's better that our congressthings don't 
LW>  listen to the majority of Americans.  At least the way 
LW>  things have gone lately.  It's far too easy to over-estimate 
LW>  the intelligence of the bulk of the American population.

     Making decisions based upon estimates of the intelligence of 
others leads to intellectual arrogance.  You can see the fundies 
being derided because they lead with religion and morality but if 
you listen longer they are in fact talking about a reasonable 
solution to problems as they see them.
     
     That is the kind of problem we find ourselves in today.  The 
Northeast first and the West coast second hold themselves 
intellectually and culturally superior to the rest of the 
country.  It is a given in those cultures.  They do not speak the 
same language (have the same cultural referents) and are not 
interested in learning it.

LW>  To wit:  Many (maybe *most*) cannot tell you how long it 
LW>  takes the Earth to circle the Sun.

     And of course the fundies who can not do that are the ones 
who are pushing for a return to the basics in school at the 
expense of "cultural enrichment" or whatever the buzz words are 
this year.

LW>  To wit:  Most Americans cannot name their senators and/or 
LW>  representatives.

     That is changing rapidly and the pols are not very happy 
about the mail they are getting because of it.

LW>  To wit:  Americans reversed their positions on the Gulf War 
LW>  in the space of a month, and the only thing that had 
LW>  changed was that the president started asking for 
LW>  permission to invade.

     You were reading different papers than I was reading.  It is 
true that Congress turned around after that event but the 
majority of the people were on board by October.  Congress 
waited until January, in fact Congress was last to come on board.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (261)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           18 Sep 94 10:21:10
Subject: The citadel                            

KP>  MG>  Then he can easily have his backside sued off.  For what it 
KP>  MG>  is worth, that has not happened.

KP>          No point suing somebody without a pot to piss in! 
KP>  To sue you have to have a reasonable prospect of finding 
KP>  something to collect against.  No point suing a vagrant! 
KP>  Even if you win, you lose.

     In this case the man is a practicing attorney.  A judgement 
would be against income and assets.  Failure to pay would mean 
loss of license to practice.  There would be no collection 
problems.  


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (262)
To:      John Todd                              18 Sep 94 13:34:10
Subject: HIV/Aspirin                            

JT> ============================================================
JT> A New Treatment for HIV-infected Persons?
JT>    Recent preliminary studies funded by the National 
JT>  Institutes of Health indicate that the miracle drug aspirin 
JT>  may provide anti-viral activity against the full-blown 
JT>  development of AIDS in individuals who are HIV-infected.  
JT>  Although it will require years of additional research to 
JT>  confirm this finding, since most people can tolerate medium 
JT>  to high dose aspirin, it may be prudent for those who are 
JT>  currently HIV-infected to check with their physician about 
JT>  adding this drug to their current regimen of treatment.
JT> =============================================================

     I don't know where you got this but what I heard was that it 
raised the T-cell count.  That is not the same thing.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (263)
To:      Scott Summers                          18 Sep 94 13:41:10
Subject: Wacko in Waco                          

SS>  Someone in here, perhaps even you, offered an explanation 
SS>  that I find plausable.  Now that the smoke has cleared (no 
SS>  pun intended) and the media realizes the extent to which 
SS>  they were conned, and how much of a player they, wittingly 
SS>  or unwittingly, were in the propaganda surrounding the 
SS>  Davidians they just figure the less said about it the 
SS>  better.

     Although if you pay attention to the talking heads they are 
ready to get in digs on Waco every time they can work it in.  
Even Married with Children got one in.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (264)
To:      Jj Judkins                             18 Sep 94 13:43:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold              

JJ>  -=> Quoting Jackie Bradbury to Scot Bear <=-

JJ>  SB> >      These are completely voluntary.
JJ>  SB>
JJ>  SB> Voluntary? How "voluntary" is it if you have no other
JJ>  SB> alternatives to turn to? Give me a break! Lose all your
JJ>  SB> income and tell me that you "volunteer" to live like
JJ>  SB> cattle...

JJ>  JB> Welfare is not income - it is charity.  There are ALWAYS alternatives

JJ>  Always Alternatives?  Yeah, I guess there are.  A welfare 
JJ>  recipient could always turn to theft and murder.  It would 
JJ>  sure pay better than welfare.

     It certainly pays better than cleaning toilets and mopping 
floors also but there is a difference between the two types of 
activities.

JJ>   Do you honestly believe that all the welfare recipients 
JJ>  collect welfare because they want to?

     Are you talking about those who use it temporarily or those 
who are second and third generation welfare?  There is a 
difference between these types also.  In fact you will there is a 
racial difference between these types also.

JJ>   Most of the people I know on welfare hate it.  They 
JJ>  consider it demeaning and hate to be looked down on by the 
JJ>  more fortunate.  Oh, yeah, there are "Welfare Queens" out 
JJ>  there.  I know.  My sister was one.  She managed to milk 
JJ>  the system in Kansas for almost 15 years before they said 
JJ>  enough.  After the eighth or ninth kid they finaly put a 
JJ>  stop to it.  Fortunately though, most people aren't like 
JJ>  that.

     May I suggest you visit Washington DC and take a look at 
something other than the monuments?  In the daytime of course.

JJ>    It's obvious from your attitude that you have never been 
JJ>  on welfare.  Do you really think that people would consent 
JJ>  to submit to the indignities that a welfare recipient has 
JJ>  to put up with for a stipend that barely allows them to 
JJ>  survive?

     Then why do they?  In most cases once they get through the 
hassle of getting in to the system case reviews are few and far 
between, i.e. no more hassles.

JJ>    Do you think that these people willingly submit 
JJ>  themselves to the indignity of having to answer questions 
JJ>  that are none of anyone's business, just so they won't be 
JJ>  cut off from their only sourse of support?

     If it was good enough for (gran)momma it is good enough for 
her.

JJ>   How do you think these people feel driving a clunker car 
JJ>  that is on its last lap, seeing these young kids omming 
JJ>  around in the brand new car mommie and daddy bought them 
JJ>  for graduation or their birthday, the one that will 
JJ>  probably be wrapped around a tree or in a ditch within a 
JJ>  year?

     They feel great about it.  They wait for it to be parked and 
strip it.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (355)
To:      Jim Higgins                            19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: 1996 Prediction                        

 MG> 1996.  
 MG> Republicans nominate Manson as candidate for President.
 MG> Manson loses to Clinton 51 to 49.  

JH> More like Manson wins 57 to 43.   ;-)

     I felt the truth would be too incredible.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Scruples taste best with garlic butter.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (356)
To:      Jj Judkins                             19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Cadet Shannon                          

 KP>  I have no problem with women having ANY job, IF they meet 
 KP>  the same, TRADITIONAL standards as men have! And do the 
 KP>  SAME work!

JJ>  T hat is the way I feel.  If they can do the job, fine, but 
JJ>  absolutely no special treatment.  Unfortunately women at 
JJ>  work will always have something available that men will 
JJ>  never have...Pregnacy Leave.    To be fair, men should be 
JJ>  allowed the option to take off when their wives are 
JJ>  pregnant.  The way it is couldn't it be considered 
JJ>  discrimination?

     When it comes to women in the military getting pregnant it 
should be treated no different than a man shoothing himself in 
the foot to avoid combat.  It is a self inflicted wound to avoid 
combat.  It was disgusting to read of all the cowardly women 
prior to the Gulf War making their weekly trips to the base 
hospital for pregnancy tests.  

     Anyone turning up pregnant after August of 1990 should have 
been court mashalled.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I do not have an ego.  I am right.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (357)
To:      Phillip Jones                          19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Crime Bill Surprise!                   

MG>      Thank you.  I have heard a claim there are only 19
MG> pages of  material that directly address crime in the bill
MG> and that does  sound like a lot of reading for little
MG> benefit.  However, do you  have a phone number?

PJ> 803-554-2498

     Appreciated.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Sodomy is not a civil right; it is a privledge.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (358)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

 * Carbon Copy:
 * Original message to ALL in the POLITICS conference.

                         Invading Haiti
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/16>

     On September 15th, 1994 at 9pm Eastern Standard Time we
heard President William Jefferson Clinton declare the invasion of
Haiti was in the interest of the security of the United States of
America.  He then went on to define our security being
threatened by the way Haitians were treating Haitians.
     We were left with the burning question.  Is he the president
of the United States or of the Dominican Republic?  I can see the
Dominican Republic being threatened by a lawless government in
Haiti but some how I can not imagine laying in survival gear here
in Tampa.
     Given the massive assets being committed to Haiti I had the
passing idea that he would announce at 9pm that the invasion of
Cuba had begun at 8pm in a brilliant military coup of
misdirection.  I was of course not disappointed.  He repeated his
slacked jawed bluster against Haiti.
     He did not mention the invasion was part of the deal with
the Black Caucus in Congress for their support of the crime bill.
He did not mention that the other justification was an attempt to
salvage his own credibility after his irresponsible threats.
     He did repeat his naive claim that the military leaders of
Haiti had broken their promise to leave.  Anyone who has followed
Presient Clinton's track record knows he is an expert in
identifying broken promises.  It would appear he is sanctioning a
military take over against himself for breaking promises.
     He did recount horror stories while failing to demonstrate a
one of them.  Much like the horror stories of Iraquis actions in
Kuwait turning out premature babies to ship the incubators to
Iraq he recounted executions of orphans.  Of course with a
straight face he expected us to believe him or perhaps be
believes it himself.
     And then, taking a cue from dozens of 1950s SciFi flicks and
from the recent Dolph Longhren movie he gave a message to the
Haitian people, We Come In Peace.  Now perhaps those 1950s movies
are still first run in Arkansas, perhaps they are cult classics,
but that does not reduce the sheer melodramatic corn of the line.
I do have a taste for B movies but that line is straight from
Plan Nine From Outer Space.
     OK, Haitians, we are coming in peace with half the assets we
used to turn around the war at sea in the Pacific in WW II.  If
we were not coming in peace we would be bringing some serious
assets to bear, like the entire Atlantic Fleet.  But you can tell
by two carrier battle groups (26 ships and four submarines) that
we come in peace and mean you no harm.
     You will be convinced we come in peace when you see a
thousand paratroopers falling from the sky.  When your country is
under the control of armed American troops you will know we have
come in peace.
     This boy is for real?  This a kid pretending to be a comic
book superhero.
     Enough.  All the fish in the barrel are dead.  I used an
assault weapon.
     This was the most "please like me" speech I have ever heard
from any politician in my life.  If I were to regard all speech
subject matter as equal and simply judge quality it is some place
between the Martin Van Buren innaugural address and a high school
Salutorian address.
     I will note by its absense any reference to "I" have
decided, "I" have directed, "I" have done anything.  It is
obvious "I" did not do a damn thing and is therefore not
responsible for any outcome.  He could not even deliver "your
time is up" with a "make my day" or "I'll be back" conviction.
     A dull monotone lacking in even the pretense of emotion or
conviction is a "please like me" speech.  The only thing good
about the speech was its brevity.  There is only so much NBC
quality programming that is acceptable on the airwaves.
     Whatever his prompting for the tone to set it went awry
under his skillful implementation.  Somber?  Decisive?  Grave?
No matter what the prompt it came out juvenile and stupid.  Even
Fearless Leader can do better than this for Boris and Natasha.
     But in any event we have the word of the mouthy horse.  We
are invading Haiti because our national security is threatened by
the way Haitians are treating Haitian.  I do not explain 'em.  I
only report 'em.  We have the word of The Clinton as to the
gospel truth of the reason for this killing of Haitians and the
loss of American lives.  And above all remember, We Come In
Peace.

                            * * * * *

Matt Giwer, 1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin Fl 34698, 813-733-5479

Further distribution is encouraged by the author.


---
 * SPEED 1.30 >01< *                Barney Must Die!

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (359)
To:      Scott Summers                          19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Welfare And The Cold                   

 MG>      No one is required to accept charity.  It is completely 
 MG> voluntary.  They may seek out other means such as begging on the 
 MG> streets, cleaning toilets, or whatever else their hearts desire.  

SS>  I know this is probably a radical thought....  but they 
SS>  might even have to resort to finding jobs.  

     That idea never crossed my mind.

SS>  Do you want to argue that our military has *not* been 
SS>  shafted over the years? We have a fed judge down here 
SS>  (William Wayne Justice) who ruled that the prison overflow 
SS>  can't be temporarly housed in tents because that would be " 
SS>  inhumane".  

 MG>       What I fail to see is a requirement to support them in 
 MG>  a single family dwelling where they want to live and with 
 MG>  food and utilities all in the most expensive form it can be 
 MG>  procured.

 MG>      Where did this burden come from?

SS> The Great Society?  

     Bleeding heart liberals started it.  Those who jumped to 
feed off the public trough providing the services work to 
perpetuate it.  It is unpleasant to say the least.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Gun Contro:  Hope over experience.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (360)
To:      Jj Judkins                             19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: 3/3Re:mt.carmel                        

JJ>   Bad is just a little mild.  Most people I know considered him EVIL..

 DN> DV> The gov't knew those children were in there, but yet they
 DN> DV> fired indescriminately without acquiring a target.
JJ>          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

JJ>  Did not intelligence already confirm that the children were 
JJ>  bunkered in the hard sites, or what passed for bunkers in 
JJ>  the compound?

     No.  If you heard the government make that claim then they 
may or may not have had intelligence to that effect but it was 
wrong.

 DN> Now that's interesting.  Didn't they try and use gas in the 
 DN> final assault? The gov't did that, too.  Thanks for 
 DN> mentioning that.

JJ>  It seems that people are forgetting that when Koresh began 
JJ>  arming his cult that he was stepping over a line.  This man 
JJ>  was not collecting hunting weapons.  This guy was going to 
JJ>  resist the government or he would have never had those 
JJ>  weapons.

     There is ZERO evidence of that.  There is only the 
government claim of it.  There is plentiful evidence nearly 
everything the government has said about the situation was a lie 
starting with the perjured warrant.

 DV> "Fanaticism ?" Upon what do you base your allegation ?

JJ>  This person was a threat to the people and the government.  
JJ>  If he hadn't been stopped then it would have ended up with 
JJ>  a lot more people getting hurt..  Yes he was a fanatic, and 
JJ>  a very dangerous one.

     Again, that is only a government claim with no evidence 
whatsoever to support it.  And the sheriff and the neighbors tell 
exactly the opposite story.  They found absolutely no problem and 
no reason for concern and considered them good neighbors.
     
     It would be good for you to take a look at the actual 
evidence rather than buying into the propaganda demonization of 
Koresh that was released by the government.  The government's 
actions in the case were criminal.  All the senior personnel 
involved were given either early retirement or permanent 
reassignment to where they can not be involved in such an 
operation again.

     I do not think that is enough.  Perjury and murder should 
not get off so easily.

 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (361)
To:      David Duckworth                        19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Cats And Learned Behavior              

DD>  'Only lately have we begun embarking upon a fourth way of 
DD>  looking at the world and our place in it.  A new view of 
DD>  Life.'
DD> 
DD>  'If we evolved, one must ask, are we then not like other 
DD>   mammals in many ways? Ways we can learn from?  And where 
DD>   we differ, should that not also teach us?'
DD> 
DD>  'Murder, rape, the most tragic forms of mental 
DD>  illnesses-all of these we are now finding among the animals 
DD>  as well as ourselves.  Brainpower only exaggerates the 
DD>  horror of these dyfunctions in us.  It is not the root 
DD>  cause.  The cause if the darkness in which we have lived.  
DD>  It is ignorance.'

     Brin never did bother knowing any real science before 
writing.  This only demonstrates it.

DD>  'But there is one more reason to protect other species.  
DD>  Perhaps we are the first to talk and think and build and 
DD>  aspire, but we may not be the last.  Others may follow us 
DD>  in this adventure.'

     If we have 20 million years to wait or unless we do it for 
them in about 100 years.

DD>  'Someday we may be judged on just how well we served, when 
DD>  alone we were Earth's caretakers.' 

     Only in the most primitive form of SciFi is there anything 
like that idea.

DD> From:  'The Uplift War' POSTSCRIPT AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
DD> Author: David Brin

     And Brin does suck as an SF writer.  That is why he writes 
SciFi.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (362)
To:      Ian Lin                                19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Dean Musholtz                          

 DN> Consider that Clinton never smoked cigarettes. Consider also that as

IL> Consider that he does smoke cigars.

     But, as with marijuana, he doesn't inhale.

 DN> propaganda movie 'Reefer Madness' and I've seen it on 'Dragnet.'

IL>  You've seen it on Dragnet? And this is your substantial 
IL>  evidence, a movie?! Dean, you really are a Mush-brain.

     You are learning about Deano very quickly.  No matter what 
you try or say or do, he will not improve.  When in a corner he 
will vanish for a week or two then come back and start from the 
beginning as though nothing had happened.  Or is it Meriweather 
who does that?


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Soar with the Eagles, and the only way to go is down.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (363)
To:      Ian Lin                                19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Stupid Feds                            

 TT> The EPA is a runaway beer wagon.  I say abolish the EPA.              

 PW> I agree and would add many other agencies that rip us off and/or
 PW> take our freedoms.  Don't forget to vote in November Tom.

IL>  I think the EPA should be revised, not abolished.  Ignoring 
IL>  the environment is deadly.  That's what the EPA is here to 
IL>  prevent.  Whether or not they're doing the job right is 
IL>  another question but to remove the agency is a mistake.

     How about if we simply ship it to Canada so you can get the 
benefits of a turnkey EPA operation.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: Janet Reno, the third best woman for the job.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (364)
To:      Ian Lin                                19 Sep 94 20:44:00
Subject: Wacko In Waco                          

 GR> Nobody knocked on the door of the Koresh compound and yelled, "Drop
 GR> your Bibles, and come out with your hands up".

 JH> And nobody ever served the warrant either.

IL> Now why isn't the media jumping up and down over THAT?

     The first and last media type who asked a hard question at a 
press briefing during the standoff was immediately arrested.


 -- SPEED 1.30 >01<: I do not have an ego.  I am right.

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (486)
To:      Jim Higgins                            19 Sep 94 09:12:10
Subject: Airplane visits white hou              

JH>  MG>   9/12 a small aircraft crashed on the White House lawn.  It 
JH>  MG>   was not shot down.  The pilot died.  Had he the mind he 
JH>  MG>   could have had a hundred pounds of dynamite with an impact 
JH>  MG>   detonator and aimed a little better and hit the White 
JH>  MG>   House.

JH>  MG> Are there any further questions?

JH>  Yeah, when do you predict the next patriot take a shot at 
JH>  it?

     I do not make such predictions.  Should there be a 
revolution the head of state is never a target.  Try and fail and 
he will redouble his efforts.  Try and succeed and his successor 
will be worse.  You need a reliable and unthreatened head of 
state to surrender on both sides.  

     That is the real reason the leaders are kept safe from 
assassination.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Child abuse experts do not reproduce.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (487)
To:      Rick Mcqueary                          19 Sep 94 09:16:10
Subject: Haiti revelation                       

RM>  MG> Leon Pannetta, 9/14, Today Show.

RM>  MG> "Haiti is a threat to the security of the United States."

RM>  MG> There you have it direct from a mouthy horse.

RM>  MG> He also said that is the case Clinton will be making in his
RM>  MG> speech. What he did not say is the qualifier, "IF this trial
RM>  MG> balloon reasons sells to the public."

RM>   Saw/heard them both say it but I STILL don't know, 
RM>  specifically, what the threat is.

     Cedras was planning to export his form of government to the 
US.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (488)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        19 Sep 94 09:17:10
Subject: Huh?                                   

JB>  MG>  Which is why I have been consistantly pushing for an image 
JB>  MG>  of what he really was.  As I have noted anyone wishing to 
JB>  MG>  fill his shoes in this country would never wear brown, 
JB>  MG>  never have a mustache and keep a kosher kitchen.

JB>  Of course.  People forget also that Hitler had the 
JB>  "noblest" of motives, at least from his and his supporters' 
JB>  point of view.  That is why the liberals are more 
JB>  dangerous, IMHO: when they're in power, they push for all 
JB>  these things that can be used against them by folks who 
JB>  don't have ideals as "lofty" as theirs.

     And their methods and what they are promoting are in fact 
fascist directly from Mussolini's handbook.

JB>  MG>  As long as he does not look like the popular image of 
JB>  MG>  Hitler he can not be a Hitler even though he is pushing for 
JB>  MG>  the exact ideal of national social and fascism that lead 
JB>  MG>  Europe down the last fun road.
JB>  MG> 
JB>  MG>  We have had five years of real peace save for the brush 
JB>  MG>  fire wars.  No more than fifteen to go before tensions 
JB>  MG>  mount to serious war again.

JB>  That _long_?  Depends on a lot of factors, but with the end 
JB>  of the century coming soon (and the millenium, come to 
JB>  think of it) things usually start to get a little crazy 
JB>  anyway.  I'd say 10, tops.

     People go crazy at such times, nations do not.  Perhaps that 
is because they are so involved in preserving the local order 
against the crazies.  Consider the pre-emptive (and paranoid) 
strike against the Davidians.
     
     As for the time for tensions, Clancy's latest is about the 
worst case short of starting over.  The countries that matter 
have worked together against the Soviet Union for nearly half a 
century.  Russia is starting from scratch.  

     This same sort of thing happens after every war, the winners 
have worked together and the losers have to recover.  It takes a 
while for things to realign and new problems to develop into 
hatreds that can justify war.  Any war worth fighting takes time 
to develop.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Hell, I am almost always right 99.7% of the time.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (489)
To:      Jim Higgins                            19 Sep 94 09:36:10
Subject: Newsletter interest                    

JH>  MG> The tentative title is "The Revolution Watch."

JH>  MG> If you are not interested, do not waste the bandwidth...

JH> Just want you to know your message made it here.  ;-)

     No problem.  So far the silence is resounding.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (492)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 10:36:10
Subject: The Revolution Watch                   

                   Ŀ ڿ   Ŀ
                     ô   Ĵ 
                           
Ŀ Ŀ ڿ   Ŀ ڿ    ڿ   Ŀ ڿ Ŀ Ŀ 
       ô   ô    ô     ô   ô ô   ô  
                 
             ڿ   Ŀ Ŀ Ŀ ڿ  
             ô   Ĵ   ô   ô    Ĵ
                         
                              
March 1992, Ruby Creek, Idaho

                   ķ  ķ       Ŀ
                         o Ĵ   
                     o     

February 28 1993, Waco, Texas

                   ķ  ķ       
                         o Ĵ Ŀ
                     o     

February 1994, gun ban included in crime bill

                   ķ  ķ     Ŀ
                         o Ŀ   
                     o  

August 1994, gun ban setback

                   ķ  ķ       
                         o Ĵ Ŀ
                     o     

August 26, 1994, gun ban passes

                   ķ  ķ     Ŀ
                         o Ŀ   
                     o  

September 14, 1994, President signs the gun ban

                   ķ  ķ           
                         o Ŀ Ŀ      
                     o        



---
  RM 1.3 01261  The 1040, the Torah, the Torah I can read.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (497)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 12:12:10
Subject: Jimmy Carter, Superstar                

                     Jimmy Carter, Superstar
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     Once again, President Carter has pulled a rabbit out of a
hat or rather a President Clinton of out the kimchee.  First he
saves President Clinton's political backside by simply going to
Korea and talking to them. Over the weekend he simply goes to
Haiti and talks to them.
     I will grant it did not hurt that towards the end of the
discussions that were having little success a member of Cedras'
staff came in shouting, "De planes, Boss, De planes!"  Of course
it does beg the question of which satellite recon system the the
Haitian were using to determine that planes had left the ground
in North Carolina.  It speaks volumes for President Clinton's
Operational Security.
     It certainly helped the President Carter ignored President
Clinton's mid afternoon requests to give up and come home.  It
appears President Carter has mastered a skill few other democrats
have mastered, doing exactly the opposite of what President
Clinton advises although most of them do appear to simply ignore
him.
     We heard that President Clinton was not very happy with
President Carter for upstaging him in Korea to the point of not
personally hearing his debriefing.  To express his displeasure
this time, President Clinton ordered the invasion into action
while President Carter was still in Haiti. Perhaps he was hoping
for a hostage crisis to apply his rhetorical skills toward.
     On the good side Limbaugh has been right one more time.  He
said there would not be an invasion and that a deal had been made
with Cedras to step down and make President Clinton look good
before the elections.  Does the current date of 15 October for
stepping down sound like before the elections to you?
     And it sounds like a good deal also.  Not only amnesty (if
the US can deliver it from the Haitian Parliament) but we, the
taxpayers, get to pick up the pensions and retraining of much of
the Haitian military.  What Cedras and the leaders got has not
been revealed but one presumes it could not be less, that is an
early retirement for all of them with the US paying their
pensions.
     If there were no cash payments there certainly are four
weeks to clearly loot the country as the US will eliminate all
sanctions and free up all bank accounts.  Perhaps we should thank
President Carter for saving us the lump sum payment by giving him
the green light to take all he can carry away with him.  Sort of
like a perverted game show.
     There will be no bloody invasion although more than a little
bloodshed is not precluded as slaughtering the losers is a long
cherished Haitian tradition.  And of course our troops will be
trying to jump into the middle of any such slaughtering.  
     And of course if Cedras does not get amnesty then he has an
excuse to back out but as the country is occupied the best he can
do is call for a guerrilla war.  That can last for decades and
cost many American lives but then the occupation force should be
able to persuade the Parliament for what that is worth against
assassination.
     The problem as President Clinton is announcing is solved.
Aristide will return and democracy will reign in Haiti for the
first time. Of course to preserve it there will need to be
schools, some means of wiping out the primitive superstitions of
the natives (a more correct term than citizens at the moment) and
of course we will need to improve the infrastructure of the
country.
     Now the real problem will be the simple fact that we have
gone through this evolution solely to install a Marxist,
defrocked priest who has not grasp upon either economic or
physical reality.  That perhaps explains both Aristide's penchant
for inciting his followers to necklace his enemies and his
psychotic behavior.
     But this man is now the choice of the United States to lead
Haiti to its democratic future along with economic progress
bought and paid for by the US taxpayers.  And rest assured
President Clinton has a plan for leaving some time real soon
although he is not willing to share it with us.
     To get ahead of the game here remember President Clinton has
stated his reasons for all of this, human rights violations and
the restoration of Democracy.  Above I said infrastructure
improvements but he did not.  Yet it does seem natural does it
not?  But he did not give infrastructure improvements as one of
his reasons.
     As we know President Clinton is not known for keeping his
word or for sticking to the issue as he failed to do in Somalia
which cost 42 American lives.  President Clinton has already
backed down on his demand that Cedras leave the country.  Perhaps
that was a minor point to avoid the invasion but it certainly was
a negotiable point.
     And finally it ends with a press conference by President
Clinton and the President Carter Team where they pat each other
on the back on what a great job everyone did.  The important
point they all make is that the UN mandates will be executed.  Ah
well, maybe it was not the Black Caucus that motivated President
Clinton.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (498)
To:      Mark Phillips                          19 Sep 94 12:33:10
Subject: AIDS STATS                             

MP>  LG> Among the majority of American citizens sex with animals is
MP>  LG> considered to be more "normal"than queer sex.

MP> You are a idiot! Where the hell did you make this statement up?

     One of the famous Arkansas lies is, "I was just helping this 
pig over the fence."


---
  RM 1.3 01261                 I come in peace.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (499)
To:      Jim Higgins                            19 Sep 94 12:38:10
Subject: Aliases                                

JH> power at present rates.  And then when they are done with
JH> that SINGLE message, they can start on the next one from
JH> the next person from scratch.  If our govt has such a need
JH> to pry into correspondence of private individuals let them
JH> knock themselves out!  I'm not worried.

     On the other hand, if you make it too secure they give up 
and beat the information out of you.  Your choice.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (500)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           19 Sep 94 12:40:10
Subject: Ann Ross Take Note -- Cli              

LG>          President Clinton took an interest in the Minnesota 
LG>          case, and 30 minutes before she was to go into 
LG>          court, Clinton picked up the telephone and told her 
LG>          to put it in reverse.
LG> 
LG>          Deputy White House counsel Joel Klein called the 
LG>          action "a rare action and an important action".
LG> 
LG>          Next thing we know, Billary will be inviting 
LG>          Robertson and Falwell to the White House for lunch.
LG> 
LG>          Comments -- Ann Ross???????????????'
LG> 
LG>          Can you hear the church bells chime???????????????

     A good question for Annimal.  She didn't know he was 
shuckin' her about the pseudo-atheist crap.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (501)
To:      Lynn Wallace                           19 Sep 94 12:41:10
Subject: another Vietnam?                       

LW>  The focus here though, is on Giwer's repugnant repeteated 
LW>  negativity, especially towards President Clinton, and his 
LW>  continued retreat to straw man arguments.

     1)   There is nothing to be positive about.

     2)   You should either learn the meaning of the term straw 
man or learn to point it out when you think you have found one.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (502)
To:      Ann Ross                               19 Sep 94 12:44:10
Subject: Armed march                            

AR>          Hmmm, do you perhaps mean that Linda Thompson was 
AR>          laughing at the poor dumb bubbas that were rushing 
AR>          to buy her faked tapes and "sign up" with her?  I 
AR>          thought so too.  And Matt Giwierd is another in it 
AR>          for the laughs.  He just cannot be as dumb as he 
AR>          writes...or they are a matched pair of real 
AR>          maladjusted sicko's who will eventually be behind 
AR>          bars of some kind of institution or other.

     It would be quite out of character for you to present what I 
have actually said in regard to LT.  As it was in this conference 
that leaves us with two possibilities, you are illiterate or 
lying.

AR> ... Matt "Proof is Not Required" Giwer.

     I learned it from Clinton.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (503)
To:      Ian Lin                                19 Sep 94 12:48:10
Subject: BIG BANG                               

IL>  CB>  And, tell me how (again) compounds existed before the big 
IL>  CB>  bang.

IL>  Easy: some elements existed, they were explosive, they did 
IL>  explode, and that was the big bang.  

     Elements are not explosive.  If you want to bring in nuclear 
reactions then the universe would be composed of fission 
products.  It is not.  

     No chemical OR nuclear explosion has anything like the 
observed velocity of the receding galaxies as in close to .4 of 
light speed in some cases.  

     Therefore no explosion unless you wish to imagine there can 
be such an explosion just because you need it to fit the rest of 
your imaginings.

Again, from what I 
IL>  gather here, my logical analysis of what could happen 
IL>  disagrees with the idea that there was "nothing." It makes 
IL>  no sense whatsoever for there to have ever been nothing.  
IL>  Simply provide me with some rational reason to believe it.

     The reason is that it fits observation.  Observation has 
nothing to do with your poor comprehension of logic and reason.

     Now give us all a reason to believe in your imaginary 
explosion caused by imaginary explosives.  

IL>  CB>  That's the whole idea of something being created: nothing 
IL>  CB>  -> something

IL>  Maybe nothing was ever created, only things being changed 
IL>  constantly.  That much we have observed, that we only change 
IL>  and nothing is ever created or destroyed, really.

     You have failed to read Hawking's discussion of the creation 
of energy at the event horizon of a black hole.  What is taking 
you so long?  Do you expect to get all of your education spoon 
fed here while you refuse to learn anything about the subject on 
your own?

IL>  CB>  Really?  There has always been energy?  Well, then, Ian, 
IL>  CB>  you must have found the answer!  That should disprove every 
IL>  CB>  creation theory in existence!  If energy has always been 
IL>  CB>  here, there never was  a beginning, was there?

IL>  I guess so! There's always been energy as far as we can 
IL>  tell.  

     If that were true then why does all the evidence we have 
(99.9% you have not taken the time to even look at) indicate that 
there was such a time?  It that something that was put there to 
test our faith?  (Working in your creator just to make you feel 
better.)

Has any evidence been found that indicates in any 
IL>  logical way that there was not energy or matter? How did 
IL>  this argument ever start with no indication of this at all?

     All of it.  READ on the subject.  You arguments based upon 
your own ignorance are getting very tiring.

IL>  I liken this to an argument about why the sun is cold when, 
IL>  in fact, it isn't.  Many may argue different reasons for why 
IL>  the sun is cold but all arguments in their very nature are 
IL>  all wrong.

     Just where did you run across that?

IL>  I don't know if it really is wrong but I'm just looking at 
IL>  this logically.  There has been no logical reason presented 
IL>  to me yet to believe or even indicate the possibility that 
IL>  there was nothing.

     You are looking at things in complete and total ignorance of 
the evidence that you have to explain.  You are only restating 
your own ignorance of the subject you are pretending to discuss.  
You are NOT discussing anything as you are contributing nothing 
to the discussion.

IL>  CB>  Matter and energy have just "always been here"?  No 
IL>  CB>  creation? They were always here?  That's illogical.

IL>  No it's not illogical.  It's very logical.  As we use energy, 
IL>  we convert it.  As matter is composed and decomposed, we 
IL>  change it.  We never make more or destroy any.  We can't do 
IL>  that.  No one has ever observed that matter or energy can be 
IL>  destroyed or created.  We always observe that energy and 
IL>  matter can and do change.  It is therefore logical to 
IL>  believe that both matter and energy can change and 
IL>  illogical to believe that matter and energy can be created.  
IL>  That's logic at it's finest.

     What does WE have to do with it?  Please be specific.  You 
are of course arguing that continuous fusion as in the sun is 
impossible because WE can not do it.  That is not only illogical 
but plain stupid.

IL>  CB> To assume that there was always time is illogical.

IL>  No, it's logical to assume there was always time.  There is 
IL>  time now, there is no indication that there was ever "no 
IL>  time," therefore it's logical to assume that we've always 
IL>  had time.  We know we have it now and there's no logical 
IL>  reason to believe it wasn't here.

     There is EVERY indication there was such a time.  You are 
simply ignorant of the indications.  Why do you continue like 
this?

IL>  You have now done something 3 times.  This is what you're 
IL>  doing: you're replying to each of my logical statements and 
IL>  claiming they're illogical.  Each of your statements is 
IL>  wrong and without supporting evidence.  These arrogant and 
IL>  ill-prepared statements get you nowhere.  I've proven you 
IL>  wrong now so you can prepare again.  I suggest you prepare 
IL>  yourself better next time.

     You need an education before you can contribute to this 
discussion.  

IL>  CB>  My, my, Ian, your very judgemental.  You always assume you 
IL>  CB>  are right,  and everyone is wrong.

IL> It's just a fact of life people have to get used to.

     I am certain Hawking will be happy to learn you are he is 
completely wrong and you are his successor.  After all, the 
general agreement his is the greatest mind since Einstein is no 
more than people deluding themselves.  They should all listen to 
you.

IL>  CB>  Time and dimensions were created as well with matter and 
IL>  CB>  energy.

IL> Show your supporting logic for that claim.

     Consider learning the facts before you continue this 
discussion.     


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (504)
To:      Jj Judkins                             19 Sep 94 13:02:10
Subject: Big bang, evolution              

On 09/15/94 JJ JUDKINS to IAN LIN on Big bang, evolution

JJ>  IL>  You've got to be joking.  Time is constant! I think those 
JJ>  IL>  who were

JJ>  Time is Constant on EARTH!  Time is fluid.  Don't forget 
JJ>  time dialation.  If you are traveling at .75c time wouldn't 
JJ>  be the same as on Earth.  I mean, a second on the ship would 
JJ>  be a lot longer period of time on Earth.

     Forget it.  Special Relativity is not logical for him.  
Therefore, as he is the sole repository of logical thought in the 
universe, it can not be true.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (505)
To:      Lynn Wallace                           19 Sep 94 13:06:10
Subject: cadet Shannon                          

LW> TP> Please elaborate on your thinking on this, Lynn.  HOW is she 
LW> TP> being gutsy, in your estimation, by seeking special 
LW> TP> consideration because of her gender, especially in light of 
LW> TP> her having overturned a longstanding tradition in education 
LW> TP> on the very principle that the boys should not be given 
LW> TP> special consideration for theirs?

LW>  She doesn't want her head shaved, and she's fighting (or 
LW>  her lawyers are) to stop it.  If she had no backbone, she'd 
LW>  let it happen in spite of not wanting it.

     That is part of the experience as she knows and you know.  

     So you are agreeing she lied under oath when she said she 
wanted the experience of the Citadel?  


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (506)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           19 Sep 94 13:14:10
Subject: cadet Shannon                          

KP>         Really PROVES she's up to combat spec's Lynniepoo! Just like
KP> her DEMANDS to be held to 40% of the performance level of the male
KP> cadets! We'z EQUAL! We is wymmun - we is INVINCIbal! 
KP> Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww poor widdle Shannon! Did the mean man say
KP> nasty things to you?

     I am still waiting to hear how she reacts standing naked and 
being hazed in the rat line.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (507)
To:      Lenny Flank                            19 Sep 94 13:15:10
Subject: cats and learned behavior              

LF>  Yeh, cats that live outside "on their own" are much less 
LF>  bonded with their humans than are inside cats.  Inside cats 
LF>  tend to be very dependent upon their humans, and view them 
LF>  as a kind of surrogate mother.  For this reason, they never 
LF>  become independent and never "grow up".

     Purring and rubbing is something kittens use to get milk 
from their mother.  In the wild adult cats do not purr or rub.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (508)
To:      Lynn Wallace                           19 Sep 94 13:27:10
Subject: crime bill                             

LW> FS>It cost $75,000 to maintain a police officer for one year.

LW>  Wrong.  The real number is less than $50,000.  Unless you 
LW>  have evidence to the contrary.

     They start around $35,000 in salary these days.  7% for Soc 
Sec, 7% for insurance, 7% for retirement.  Then add the cost of 
the car procurement, operation and maintenance, radios and the 
rest of the equipment.  Then add the salaries of the support 
personnel, car mechanics, dispatchers, clerks, and things like 
building maintenance.  $75,000 is much more like it.

LW> FS>Times that by 100,000 officers and you get 7.5 billion dollars a
LW> FS>year.

LW>  That's for 100,000 officers starting today and continued 
LW>  every year.  The numbers are 20,000 new cops per year for 
LW>  the next 5 years, and those under the condition that cities 
LW>  and states match every federal dollar.  Of course, the bill 
LW>  states that the money will be made available until it's all 
LW>  gone.

     It is not 20,000 per year.  It is for 20,000 with a 
declining share of federal contribution over those five years.

     Unless you are saying the bill for the police was five times 
higher than we were lead to believe.

     Either lie is acceptable.



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (509)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        19 Sep 94 13:53:10
Subject: Declaration of Independen              

JB>  Just a few examples.  While the Declaration is indeed 
JB>  relevant to our philosophy as a people, it has little 
JB>  relevance to the _law_ of the United States.

     And in fact our philosophy as a people runs deeper than just 
the Declaration.  It is mentioned but in a long list

             For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

     and yet we do not tax anyone who does not live within the 50 
states as they do not have elected representation.

     This leads to a larger issue.  Is EVERYTHING in the 
Declaration a legitimate part of our philosophy and heritage?  
And if so what are the implications?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (510)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        19 Sep 94 14:06:10
Subject: Declaration of Independen              

JB> You do not have the right to a jury trial in Tax Court.

     What would it matter?  You do not have judges in tax court 
either.  The things they call judges work for the Executive 
branch.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (511)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        19 Sep 94 14:12:10
Subject: Gibson's Gibberish                     

JB>  MG>  He will not know the difference, he teaches history in 
JB>  MG>  Arkansas.  His mother's maiden name was Gump.

JB>  Hey, now, be nice to the mentally ill - I would never lump 
JB>  he and they in the same group.  They at least have the 
JB>  ability to have some useful functions in society..  

     He makes the Gumps of the world look smart.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (512)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 16:26:10
Subject: Army Sits It Out                       

                        Army Sits It Out
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     The question has arisen as to the role of the US Military in
any possible revolution in this country.  The type of
insurrection I refer to is a general uprising in all states
starting in the form of a guerrilla war.  This clearly means
there would be no face to face confrontation with the regular
army.  Further that they would live no different from anyone else
while conducting the revolution.  This will initially involve
only a small fraction of the population, perhaps 1%.
     Consider that we have three branches Army, Navy (Marines)
and Air Force. Clearly the Navy and Marines are of no value in
suppressing a general insurrection.  Unless an entire coastal
state goes over to the insurrection the Navy and Marines are
clearly useless save for air strikes.
     Air strikes lack feasability for both the Navy and the Air
Force save when the insurrectionists have known and fixed
positions or supply routes.  As they would have only their own
homes or certain meeting places, perhaps loud bars, and their
food and materiel is bought in grocery and hardware stores just
like everyone else there are not targets to strike.
     Further air strikes have a serious problem with collateral
damage.  It may impress Dan Rather to show a successful strike
upon a suburban home but high explosives do not spare neighboring
homes. And the relatives of the neighbors who die will most
likely join the revolution rather than thank the government.
That increases the forces of the revolution.
     That leaves the Army as the only potentially useful force in
suppressing an insurrection.  The last three words are critical.
Although Congress was delegated the power to raise armies (for
two year intervals) and to create a standing Navy, it was clearly
delegated only the power to use the militia to suppress
insurrections.  Given the mood of all Englishmen and certainly of
the ex-colonists the use of the Army to suppress insurrection
could not possibly be construed as their intention.
     And as everyone in the Army takes an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution there is no room for complying with an
order to suppress an insurrection.  Thus it would appear by their
oaths of office, not to mention the general revulsion of our
military people to shooting at friends and relatives.  Perhaps
that is a bit of an understatement.
     There is a point of law and case law that has to be
addressed.  The US Code improperly identifies the National Guard
as the organized militia and non-members of the Guard as the
unorganized militia.  Thus it could be held that the National
Guard could be used against the rebels.
     But we have had a Supreme Court decision that clarifies the
matter.  Some years ago Reagan called up the Guard for exercises
in Central America to intimidate Ortega.  The objection to that
was taken to the Supreme Court on the grounds the Guard was a
state function.  And in this case the Supreme Court, certainly
forgetting unforeseen consequences, held the Guard was part of
the US Army.
     End discussion.  The National Guard can not be used against
an insurrection and of course they have the same oath of office.
     That leaves the only authority Congress has, to call forth
the militia to suppress other members of the militia.  Most
interesting is those aware of their militia status are those most
likely to have joined the revolution.  It presents an interesting
problem for the Federal Government.
     It requires the Federal Government to use its existing
police powers to enforce whatever laws are delegated to the
agencies with those powers.  There are relatively few such people
much less laws.  Certainly if someone were to destroy a federal
building then the FBI could investigate as it could any terrorist
activity.  However there are precious few other laws it can
enforce in any manner different than can be done now.
     In most cases they are support for the local police not
having the manpower of the local police.  In that regard the
local police are equally as abhorant as the military in attacking
friends and relatives.  In other words, the local police are not
likely to be aggressive in the matter and, in reading the
character and interests of the police, are more likely to be part
of the revolution than against it.
     The worst case is that some fraction of the Army can be
subborned to the cause of suppressing the rebellion.  In the
worst case all of it.  Consider the grounds rebellion as I have
described it without strongholds, only homes and meeting places
which have to be discovered the hard way.  These will be all
through the cities but clustered in no one place.
     That means all heavy weapons are useless because of the risk
of collateral damage and converting loyalists into rebels.  The
Army is then down to armored personnel carriers, HMMVs and foot
soldiers.  The main weapon of tanks is high on the collateral
damage scale as well as being very risky for their crews to take
into cities -- ask any tank driver.
     The armored vehicles are all well and good but for any
serious shooting the troops have to get out.  At that point,
other than training, the playing field has been leveled.  As for
training, another large group to draw on for the rebellion will
be ex-military and they will be the source of training and
expertise for the rebels.  The Regular Army will still have the
edge but not by much.
     Add to that, not only do tank drivers not like entering
cities, neither do foot soldiers.  There are too many places for
people to hide.  The only way to pacify as house is to enter it
and every part of a home is a potential ambush.  And there is no
way of knowing the shooter in the window has been neutralized
without checking and when someone enters the building to check
there is no way to be covered by others in the group.
     Worse yet rifles are clumsy things to use in houses.
Handguns are much better but at in home distances and places the
owner knows, the army folks are at a distinct disadvantage.
     Summing it all up, even with the Army being subborned into
suppression of a revolution it is hardly the most effective means
of doing so, perhaps to the point of ineffective.  Consider the
local police often choose the wrong house, address or whatever.
It is one thing to excuse the local police who may have helped
you in the past.  It is another to excuse the Army for killing
the wrong people.  Further to actually suppress a rebellion they
will have to rack up so many accidents per week that the excuses
that work for the police once a year will cease working in one
week.
     A general insurrection can not be suppressed by the Federal
government, only by the militia which is the body of the people.
When the body of the people become the insurrectionists the
government will fall.  There is no other possible outcome.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (524)
To:      All                                    19 Sep 94 20:59:10
Subject: Criminalize the Consequen              

                 Criminalizing the Consequences
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     When all else fails in condemning victimless crimes, condemn
them because of the consequences.  This is common in the three
most famous victimless crimes; prostitution, drugs and gambling.
It is becoming more common and with the same puritanical
justifications.
     Why should not honest citizens own guns?  Because they might
be stolen and misused.  Will they be stolen and misused?  That is
quite unpredictable.  Can it be foreseen? Of course not.  But it
might happen therefore, no guns for the potential victims.
     It is not much different with drugs.  They are 90% weekend
recreation and there is not the slightest indication that all
users are on a never ending downward spiral.  Marion Barry, the
once and future Mayor of Washington DC was a nearly life long
user until he was entrapped by the Federal Government and there
was no sign of any diminished capacity.  He would make a very
antithetical poster child any anti-drug campaign.  "Use drugs and
this may happen to you."
     Locally we have a classic criminal.  He bet money on a poker
game at the Elks Lodge.  He may be 72 but it is never too late to
do the time for doing the crime.  But he is now an official
criminal.  With any luck he may be given probation meaning if he
gets caught gambling there again he gets the maximum for both
offenses.
     It is good to see we are keeping organized crime out of area
by punishing him.  Why if he had continued to gamble who knows
what kind of sin would have come next.  Why he might even have
visited a prostitute, smoked a joint even.
     These are old jokes derided by everyone but then are the
anti-gun and anti-smoking laws any different?  The risk of
consequential harm from either of those is on the same order as
the risk of harm from second hand smoke but the cries of moral
indignation are as fierce as those of the Women's Christian
Temperance Union in its heyday.
     This entire attitude flows from the human trait to be
superstitious and to follow authority.  When we are told
something is wrong or evil or undesirable with great authority we
tend to accept it.  And once accepted any remotely related
example will encourage even greater belief.
     Consider, depending upon which variant of your religion you
follow either great material wealth is a sign of a blessing from
god or a sign of sinfulness and ill-gotten wealth or exactly the
reverse.  Rich or poor it can be a sign of being good or evil.
But whichever your belief it takes only searching out a few
horrible examples and ignoring the rest to prove the case.
     Excuse you, you are not religious.  Do you believe drugs
cause great harm to a person?  Then you find excuses to explain
Marion Barry while you trot out a bum on the street begging for
change so he can shoot up some drug.  Voile!  You have proven
your case.
     Do you believe gun ownership is harmful?  Then you take
every example of drug dealers killing each other as proof.  But
if you hold guns ownership is good then you point to successful
self defense with guns and ignore the rest.
     This is a human characteristics and it is precisely the
reason why we have applied statistics and surveys to social
issues.  We use them to provide a complete picture and to get
away from personal inclinations to see what justifies our
beliefs.
     Now certainly statistics can lie with the best of them but
they are a cut above searching out horrible examples to prove a
position that is nothing more than a belief passed along with
authority.  And lying with statistics requires serious effort at
self deception or at deceiving others while knowing better.  And
that is where the peer review and publication of science comes
into play.
     To be accepted as a true finding it is subject first to peer
review for the method prior to publication and then to critical
review by people in the same field.  Only after it becomes
accepted by others in the field can it be considered a valid
finding.  This is the only route to determine a valid finding and
it can not be hurried and may take years.
     That does not suit the human trait of finding a horrible
consequence for everything disliked and a good consequence for
everything liked.
     Consider the idea that wealth is a sign of having come by it
through immoral means.  That may be possible but clearly the
majority of such people are in prison or in a position in life
they can never escape because of their criminal record.  If that
statistic fails then there is reference to white collar crime and
the very few serious cases of it are brought out as horrible
examples while ignoring the vast majority of white collar workers
who are honest wage slaves like most everyone else.
     The carefully selected consequences resulting from some
people performing some action do not justify making anything a
crime.  For example when the drug decriminalization people state
quite clearly the crime has no victim the drug haters trot out a
few horrible examples of what can happen to people around them
because of the drug usage and call them victims.  In the good old
days of a suffering wife and children this might have had some
meaning however remote but today if the mother stays around we
have to ask if she likes being a victim.
     There is no justification for making criminals of a large
number of people simply because it is possible to find a small
number of examples of consequences that are undesirable.  We are
no longer uncivilized, superstitious tribesmen and it is time we
started acting in accordance with our pretensions of justice.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (527)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: Army Sits It Out                       

                        Army Sits It Out
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     The question has arisen as to the role of the US Military in
any possible revolution in this country.  The type of
insurrection I refer to is a general uprising in all states
starting in the form of a guerrilla war.  This clearly means
there would be no face to face confrontation with the regular
army.  Further that they would live no different from anyone else
while conducting the revolution.  This will initially involve
only a small fraction of the population, perhaps 1%.
     Consider that we have three branches Army, Navy (Marines)
and Air Force. Clearly the Navy and Marines are of no value in
suppressing a general insurrection.  Unless an entire coastal
state goes over to the insurrection the Navy and Marines are
clearly useless save for air strikes.
     Air strikes lack feasability for both the Navy and the Air
Force save when the insurrectionists have known and fixed
positions or supply routes.  As they would have only their own
homes or certain meeting places, perhaps loud bars, and their
food and materiel is bought in grocery and hardware stores just
like everyone else there are not targets to strike.
     Further air strikes have a serious problem with collateral
damage.  It may impress Dan Rather to show a successful strike
upon a suburban home but high explosives do not spare neighboring
homes. And the relatives of the neighbors who die will most
likely join the revolution rather than thank the government.
That increases the forces of the revolution.
     That leaves the Army as the only potentially useful force in
suppressing an insurrection.  The last three words are critical.
Although Congress was delegated the power to raise armies (for
two year intervals) and to create a standing Navy, it was clearly
delegated only the power to use the militia to suppress
insurrections.  Given the mood of all Englishmen and certainly of
the ex-colonists the use of the Army to suppress insurrection
could not possibly be construed as their intention.
     And as everyone in the Army takes an oath to uphold and
defend the Constitution there is no room for complying with an
order to suppress an insurrection.  Thus it would appear by their
oaths of office, not to mention the general revulsion of our
military people to shooting at friends and relatives.  Perhaps
that is a bit of an understatement.
     There is a point of law and case law that has to be
addressed.  The US Code improperly identifies the National Guard
as the organized militia and non-members of the Guard as the
unorganized militia.  Thus it could be held that the National
Guard could be used against the rebels.
     But we have had a Supreme Court decision that clarifies the
matter.  Some years ago Reagan called up the Guard for exercises
in Central America to intimidate Ortega.  The objection to that
was taken to the Supreme Court on the grounds the Guard was a
state function.  And in this case the Supreme Court, certainly
forgetting unforeseen consequences, held the Guard was part of
the US Army.
     End discussion.  The National Guard can not be used against
an insurrection and of course they have the same oath of office.
     That leaves the only authority Congress has, to call forth
the militia to suppress other members of the militia.  Most
interesting is those aware of their militia status are those most
likely to have joined the revolution.  It presents an interesting
problem for the Federal Government.
     It requires the Federal Government to use its existing
police powers to enforce whatever laws are delegated to the
agencies with those powers.  There are relatively few such people
much less laws.  Certainly if someone were to destroy a federal
building then the FBI could investigate as it could any terrorist
activity.  However there are precious few other laws it can
enforce in any manner different than can be done now.
     In most cases they are support for the local police not
having the manpower of the local police.  In that regard the
local police are equally as abhorant as the military in attacking
friends and relatives.  In other words, the local police are not
likely to be aggressive in the matter and, in reading the
character and interests of the police, are more likely to be part
of the revolution than against it.
     The worst case is that some fraction of the Army can be
subborned to the cause of suppressing the rebellion.  In the
worst case all of it.  Consider the grounds rebellion as I have
described it without strongholds, only homes and meeting places
which have to be discovered the hard way.  These will be all
through the cities but clustered in no one place.
     That means all heavy weapons are useless because of the risk
of collateral damage and converting loyalists into rebels.  The
Army is then down to armored personnel carriers, HMMVs and foot
soldiers.  The main weapon of tanks is high on the collateral
damage scale as well as being very risky for their crews to take
into cities -- ask any tank driver.
     The armored vehicles are all well and good but for any
serious shooting the troops have to get out.  At that point,
other than training, the playing field has been leveled.  As for
training, another large group to draw on for the rebellion will
be ex-military and they will be the source of training and
expertise for the rebels.  The Regular Army will still have the
edge but not by much.
     Add to that, not only do tank drivers not like entering
cities, neither do foot soldiers.  There are too many places for
people to hide.  The only way to pacify as house is to enter it
and every part of a home is a potential ambush.  And there is no
way of knowing the shooter in the window has been neutralized
without checking and when someone enters the building to check
there is no way to be covered by others in the group.
     Worse yet rifles are clumsy things to use in houses.
Handguns are much better but at in home distances and places the
owner knows, the army folks are at a distinct disadvantage.
     Summing it all up, even with the Army being subborned into
suppression of a revolution it is hardly the most effective means
of doing so, perhaps to the point of ineffective.  Consider the
local police often choose the wrong house, address or whatever.
It is one thing to excuse the local police who may have helped
you in the past.  It is another to excuse the Army for killing
the wrong people.  Further to actually suppress a rebellion they
will have to rack up so many accidents per week that the excuses
that work for the police once a year will cease working in one
week.
     A general insurrection can not be suppressed by the Federal
government, only by the militia which is the body of the people.
When the body of the people become the insurrectionists the
government will fall.  There is no other possible outcome.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (528)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: Criminalize the Consequen              

                 Criminalizing the Consequences
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     When all else fails in condemning victimless crimes, condemn
them because of the consequences.  This is common in the three
most famous victimless crimes; prostitution, drugs and gambling.
It is becoming more common and with the same puritanical
justifications.
     Why should not honest citizens own guns?  Because they might
be stolen and misused.  Will they be stolen and misused?  That is
quite unpredictable.  Can it be foreseen? Of course not.  But it
might happen therefore, no guns for the potential victims.
     It is not much different with drugs.  They are 90% weekend
recreation and there is not the slightest indication that all
users are on a never ending downward spiral.  Marion Barry, the
once and future Mayor of Washington DC was a nearly life long
user until he was entrapped by the Federal Government and there
was no sign of any diminished capacity.  He would make a very
antithetical poster child any anti-drug campaign.  "Use drugs and
this may happen to you."
     Locally we have a classic criminal.  He bet money on a poker
game at the Elks Lodge.  He may be 72 but it is never too late to
do the time for doing the crime.  But he is now an official
criminal.  With any luck he may be given probation meaning if he
gets caught gambling there again he gets the maximum for both
offenses.
     It is good to see we are keeping organized crime out of area
by punishing him.  Why if he had continued to gamble who knows
what kind of sin would have come next.  Why he might even have
visited a prostitute, smoked a joint even.
     These are old jokes derided by everyone but then are the
anti-gun and anti-smoking laws any different?  The risk of
consequential harm from either of those is on the same order as
the risk of harm from second hand smoke but the cries of moral
indignation are as fierce as those of the Women's Christian
Temperance Union in its heyday.
     This entire attitude flows from the human trait to be
superstitious and to follow authority.  When we are told
something is wrong or evil or undesirable with great authority we
tend to accept it.  And once accepted any remotely related
example will encourage even greater belief.
     Consider, depending upon which variant of your religion you
follow either great material wealth is a sign of a blessing from
god or a sign of sinfulness and ill-gotten wealth or exactly the
reverse.  Rich or poor it can be a sign of being good or evil.
But whichever your belief it takes only searching out a few
horrible examples and ignoring the rest to prove the case.
     Excuse you, you are not religious.  Do you believe drugs
cause great harm to a person?  Then you find excuses to explain
Marion Barry while you trot out a bum on the street begging for
change so he can shoot up some drug.  Voile!  You have proven
your case.
     Do you believe gun ownership is harmful?  Then you take
every example of drug dealers killing each other as proof.  But
if you hold guns ownership is good then you point to successful
self defense with guns and ignore the rest.
     This is a human characteristics and it is precisely the
reason why we have applied statistics and surveys to social
issues.  We use them to provide a complete picture and to get
away from personal inclinations to see what justifies our
beliefs.
     Now certainly statistics can lie with the best of them but
they are a cut above searching out horrible examples to prove a
position that is nothing more than a belief passed along with
authority.  And lying with statistics requires serious effort at
self deception or at deceiving others while knowing better.  And
that is where the peer review and publication of science comes
into play.
     To be accepted as a true finding it is subject first to peer
review for the method prior to publication and then to critical
review by people in the same field.  Only after it becomes
accepted by others in the field can it be considered a valid
finding.  This is the only route to determine a valid finding and
it can not be hurried and may take years.
     That does not suit the human trait of finding a horrible
consequence for everything disliked and a good consequence for
everything liked.
     Consider the idea that wealth is a sign of having come by it
through immoral means.  That may be possible but clearly the
majority of such people are in prison or in a position in life
they can never escape because of their criminal record.  If that
statistic fails then there is reference to white collar crime and
the very few serious cases of it are brought out as horrible
examples while ignoring the vast majority of white collar workers
who are honest wage slaves like most everyone else.
     The carefully selected consequences resulting from some
people performing some action do not justify making anything a
crime.  For example when the drug decriminalization people state
quite clearly the crime has no victim the drug haters trot out a
few horrible examples of what can happen to people around them
because of the drug usage and call them victims.  In the good old
days of a suffering wife and children this might have had some
meaning however remote but today if the mother stays around we
have to ask if she likes being a victim.
     There is no justification for making criminals of a large
number of people simply because it is possible to find a small
number of examples of consequences that are undesirable.  We are
no longer uncivilized, superstitious tribesmen and it is time we
started acting in accordance with our pretensions of justice.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Sind Ihre Tochter Achtzehn?

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (529)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: Jimmy Carter, Superstar                

                     Jimmy Carter, Superstar
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/19>

     Once again, President Carter has pulled a rabbit out of a
hat or rather a President Clinton of out the kimchee.  First he
saves President Clinton's political backside by simply going to
Korea and talking to them. Over the weekend he simply goes to
Haiti and talks to them.
     I will grant it did not hurt that towards the end of the
discussions that were having little success a member of Cedras'
staff came in shouting, "De planes, Boss, De planes!"  Of course
it does beg the question of which satellite recon system the the
Haitian were using to determine that planes had left the ground
in North Carolina.  It speaks volumes for President Clinton's
Operational Security.
     It certainly helped the President Carter ignored President
Clinton's mid afternoon requests to give up and come home.  It
appears President Carter has mastered a skill few other democrats
have mastered, doing exactly the opposite of what President
Clinton advises although most of them do appear to simply ignore
him.
     We heard that President Clinton was not very happy with
President Carter for upstaging him in Korea to the point of not
personally hearing his debriefing.  To express his displeasure
this time, President Clinton ordered the invasion into action
while President Carter was still in Haiti. Perhaps he was hoping
for a hostage crisis to apply his rhetorical skills toward.
     On the good side Limbaugh has been right one more time.  He
said there would not be an invasion and that a deal had been made
with Cedras to step down and make President Clinton look good
before the elections.  Does the current date of 15 October for
stepping down sound like before the elections to you?
     And it sounds like a good deal also.  Not only amnesty (if
the US can deliver it from the Haitian Parliament) but we, the
taxpayers, get to pick up the pensions and retraining of much of
the Haitian military.  What Cedras and the leaders got has not
been revealed but one presumes it could not be less, that is an
early retirement for all of them with the US paying their
pensions.
     If there were no cash payments there certainly are four
weeks to clearly loot the country as the US will eliminate all
sanctions and free up all bank accounts.  Perhaps we should thank
President Carter for saving us the lump sum payment by giving him
the green light to take all he can carry away with him.  Sort of
like a perverted game show.
     There will be no bloody invasion although more than a little
bloodshed is not precluded as slaughtering the losers is a long
cherished Haitian tradition.  And of course our troops will be
trying to jump into the middle of any such slaughtering.  
     And of course if Cedras does not get amnesty then he has an
excuse to back out but as the country is occupied the best he can
do is call for a guerrilla war.  That can last for decades and
cost many American lives but then the occupation force should be
able to persuade the Parliament for what that is worth against
assassination.
     The problem as President Clinton is announcing is solved.
Aristide will return and democracy will reign in Haiti for the
first time. Of course to preserve it there will need to be
schools, some means of wiping out the primitive superstitions of
the natives (a more correct term than citizens at the moment) and
of course we will need to improve the infrastructure of the
country.
     Now the real problem will be the simple fact that we have
gone through this evolution solely to install a Marxist,
defrocked priest who has not grasp upon either economic or
physical reality.  That perhaps explains both Aristide's penchant
for inciting his followers to necklace his enemies and his
psychotic behavior.
     But this man is now the choice of the United States to lead
Haiti to its democratic future along with economic progress
bought and paid for by the US taxpayers.  And rest assured
President Clinton has a plan for leaving some time real soon
although he is not willing to share it with us.
     To get ahead of the game here remember President Clinton has
stated his reasons for all of this, human rights violations and
the restoration of Democracy.  Above I said infrastructure
improvements but he did not.  Yet it does seem natural does it
not?  But he did not give infrastructure improvements as one of
his reasons.
     As we know President Clinton is not known for keeping his
word or for sticking to the issue as he failed to do in Somalia
which cost 42 American lives.  President Clinton has already
backed down on his demand that Cedras leave the country.  Perhaps
that was a minor point to avoid the invasion but it certainly was
a negotiable point.
     And finally it ends with a press conference by President
Clinton and the President Carter Team where they pat each other
on the back on what a great job everyone did.  The important
point they all make is that the UN mandates will be executed.  Ah
well, maybe it was not the Black Caucus that motivated President
Clinton.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (530)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 00:25:00
Subject: The Revolution Watch                   

                   ****** **  * *****
                     **   ***** ***
                     **   **  * *****
***** ***** **  * ***** **    **  * ****** ** ***** **** *
***** ***   **  * **  * **    **  *   **   ** **  * ** * *
** *  *****  **** ***** ***** *****   **   ** ***** ** ***
             ** * * ***** ****** ***** **  *
             ** * * *****   **   **    *****
             ****** **  *   **   ***** **  *
                              
March 1992, Ruby Creek, Idaho

                   **  **    *  * ****
                    *   *  o **** *  *
                   *** *** o    * ****

February 28 1993, Waco, Texas

                   **  **    *  * ****
                    *   *  o **** ****
                   *** *** o    * ****

February 1994, gun ban included in crime bill

                   **  **    **** ****
                    *   *  o **** *  *
                   *** *** o **** ****

August 1994, gun ban setback

                   **  **    *  * ****
                    *   *  o **** ****
                   *** *** o    * ****

August 26, 1994, gun ban passes

                   **  **    **** ****
                    *   *  o **** *  *
                   *** *** o **** ****

September 14, 1994, President signs the gun ban

                   **  **    **** ****      
                    *   *  o **** ****      
                   *** *** o **** ****      



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (567)
To:      Jim Higgins                            21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: 1 NATION UNDER GOD                     

JH>  JH> And nobody ever served the warrant either.

JH>  SB> I never knew that! Hmmmmmmm (cogitating)...
JH>  SB> This changes a few things.

JH>  What did you think all the fuss has been about?  The BDs 
JH>  were murdered in an attack which began without so much as 
JH>  an attempt to properly serve the warrant, nor any attempt 
JH>  to simply pick up Koresh when he was in town a while (days, 
JH>  a week, I forget) before.  When Koresh opened the door one 
JH>  time to try to talk to the BATF they fired on him...  our 
JH>  government in action.

     Let me clarify that.  They had no arrest warrant.  It was a 
search warrant that included an open ended (no one named) power 
to arrest that was implicitely dependent upon finding the items 
the affidavit alleged.  Thus there was no way to pick him up 
while in town.

     That does not leave out meeting at the entrance to ranch, 
serving the warrant there and escorting him inside.  

     Further the warrant was only good for three days, the day of 
the attack being the last day is was valid.  That is why I have 
pointed out the BATF statement that they moved it up because of 
the newspaper series starting is prima facia evidence of a 
government conspiracy to violate their constitutional rights.  In 
any event, that means days or weeks before would have been out of 
the question in any event.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (568)
To:      Ian Lin                                21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: ANIMAL INTELLIGENCE                    

IL> Did you check the source I gave you for animal intelligence?

     No and I was not particularly interested in it.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (569)
To:      Travis Beard                           21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: BLOOD OF THE PARACLETE                 

TB>  There is a Catholic place outside Los Alamos in a small 
TB>  town named Jemez Springs called "Blood of the Paraclete" or 
TB>  something similar whic treat priests, and maybe nuns for 
TB>  alcoholism and those othe unmentionable behviours the 
TB>  Catholic heirarchy want to pretend don't happen.
TB> 
TB>  They use the 12 Step method of indoctrination......ere 
TB>  recovery.
TB> 
TB>  Jemez Spring is a nice place.  Isolated.  Radioactive.  Just 
TB>  kidding.
TB> 
TB>  Anyway there is a Buddhist monastery next door to the 
TB>  Catholic place.

     Are the Bhuddists there to recover from meat addiction?

TB>  And a bar across the street.  Called Los Ojos and has some 
TB>  of the best green chile stew in the state!

     That certainly doesn't help any of them get off beer 
drinking.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (570)
To:      Linda Terrell                          21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: CATS AND LEARNED BEHA                  

LT>     Well, as I heard it from a "cat-thopologist" 

     Felinthropologist

when a cat 
LT>  brings you its kill, 

     That is all it can contribute and it is quite charitable.

it is trying to tell you it's time for 
LT>  youi to learn to hunt.  

     Makes more sense than sharing the kill or feeding the young.

This is how the wild mother cats 
LT>  introduce their kittens to game.

     But they do take sympathy upon us because we never eat real 
food.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (571)
To:      All                                    21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: D                                      

d


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (572)
To:      Kelsey Bjarnason                       21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: FLOOD / NOAH'S AR 1/              

KB>  WC>  Regardless, the human body is too complex to even consider 
KB>  WC>  such nonsense.

KB>   Exactly.  Yet the fundies almost invariably insist that 
KB>   the whole process is random.  If they would ever bother to 
KB>   even try to understand the process, they would realize 
KB>   randomness has little to do with it and the whole concept 
KB>   of "life is too complex to happen by chance" will die.

     If they would ever study high school chemistry they would 
know atoms do not join randomly.

     I have sort of wondered why they do not predict that water 
will randomly bond with the glass that holds it.  After all, they 
believe all chemistry is random.

     And this is one of the most primitive ideas they cling to, 
that natural phenomena vary locally rather than being universal.  
Thus they hold chemistry is different for the water and glass 
than it is for life.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (573)
To:      John Todd                              21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: HEART DISEASE                          

JT>     For years the debate over the connection between 
JT>  cholesterol and heart disease divided the medical 
JT>  establishment.  Finally, after the dust had settled, it 
JT>  became medical dogma:  The higher the blood serum levels of 
JT>  cholesterol the greater the risk factor.  Well, that's not 
JT>  quite the whole story because medical researchers also 
JT>  determined that the ratio between low density lipoprotein 
JT>  (LDL) and high density lipoproteins (HDL) was an important 
JT>  additional factor that must be added to the equation.  HDL 
JT>  is now considered to be "good cholesterol," and the real 
JT>  culprit is LDL.  Sorry, I almost forgot, there is also the 
JT>  very low density lipoproteins (VLDL) levels to consider --- 
JT>  the really really "bad cholesterol."  High VLDL levels in 
JT>  your blood is the pitts and should be avoided like the 
JT>  plague.  Yes, I think I finally got it right.  The new 
JT>  guidelines, which take into consideration all of the above 
JT>  factors, provides your physician with an excellent tool for 
JT>  determining your risk of developing heart disease.  Right?

     This is rather old information.  If you can get Dr. Gabe 
Merkin on your local radio give him a listen and a call.  He was 
saying it at least five years ago.  And he is one hell of a lot 
better than Dean Adelle (sp) to my mind.  No editorializing but 
plain english lectures on such matters that are interesting if a 
bit repetitive.

JT>     Well, perhaps!  It seems that a new risk factor has been 
JT>  added to the equation --- the lipoprotein (a) molecule, 
JT>  Lp(a).  Dr.  Matthias Rath, M.D., a non-renowned, obscure 
JT>  maverick cardiologist, who had the audacity to leave a good 
JT>  position  at Baylor College of Medicine, because they 
JT>  didn't like vitamins, and take a position as Director of 
JT>  Cardiovascular Research at the Pauling Institute of Science 
JT>  and Medicine, claims that the Lp(a) molecule is 10 times 
JT>  more of a risk factor in the development of heart disease 
JT>  than LDL  cholesterol.  Dr.  Rath explains that Lp(a) acts 
JT>  like an adhesive and rides piggyback on the LDL molecule as 
JT>  it moves through the blood vessel walls causing LDL to 
JT>  stick to the walls of the vessels.  The good doctor also 
JT>  claims the cholesterol dogma is heavily defended in the 
JT>  interest of making money with cholesterol lowering drugs 
JT>  which totals over $2 billion a year and these companies 
JT>  want to keep the public in the dark; they want to keep the 
JT>  information on Lp(a) hidden.  He could be right, I guess, 
JT>  $2 billion is a lot of money!

     And the drugs ONLY work IF the person is on a diet with so 
little fat it tastes like cardboard.  Nice drugs.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (574)
To:      Charles Hill                           21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: MALTHUS INVERTED                       

CH> Peter Dawydchak tossed this one to the wolves:

CH>  PD>  I thought we had a world wide plague called AIDS.  I have a 
CH>  PD>  piece of software that does an AIDS model.  It tells me by 
CH>  PD>  the year 2010 the population will be in a steady decline to 
CH>  PD>  the tune of almost 1,000,000 people per year.  I think we 
CH>  PD>  will have an population implosion and not an explosion 
CH>  PD>  after the year 2000.

CH>  If one million people a year are dying from AIDS and 
CH>  related ailments, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the 
CH>  number of births.
CH> 
CH>  Or does your model suggest that the number of AIDS-related 
CH>  deaths will exceed the number of births by 2010?
CH> 
CH>  Clarification, please....cgh

     I am not going to argue his case but prior to 1993 the model 
did predict exactly that the death rate would exceed the birth 
rate.  Now the rate of increase appears to be dropping and 
fitting a lower end model on infection rate.  In a few more years 
we should have a good estimate of where the steady state number 
of infections will level off.  

     The data is not good enough to do that yet.  Simply good 
enough to say it is tending toward leveling.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (575)
To:      Tim Sitzler                            21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: MEDICAL CARE                           

TS>  I'm not sure how she was 'treated', but I would have told 
TS>  her "Oh, you spilled the coffee on yourself and got burned.  
TS>  Gee, that's too bad, we're sorry you hurt yourself, would 
TS>  you like a free replacement cup?"

     But look where it burned her.  She must have been served by 
a man.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (576)
To:      Scott Summers                          21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: MISSING PEOPLE                         

SS> After a moment of reflection,Fred Garvin shared this insight with All

SS>  FG> Whatever happened to:
SS>  FG>
SS>  FG> Alec Grynspan
SS>  FG>
SS>  FG> Anyone seen these folks out in cyberspace?

SS> You left out Tom Banks

     Alec keeps pleading no time.  An independent contractor and 
workaholic.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (577)
To:      All                                    21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: MONUMENT MISSING                       

TR> AP 09/10/94

TR>     WACO, Texas (AP) -- A monument to the federal agents 
TR>  killed in the shootout at the Branch Davidian compound has 
TR>  disappeared.  A state road maintenance crew noticed last 
TR>  week that the metal plaque on top of a waist-high pole was 
TR>  missing, said Helen Havelka, a spokeswoman for the 
TR>  Department of Transportation.  The plaque was engraved with 
TR>  the names of the four U.S.  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and 
TR>  Firearms agents who were killed in the Feb.  28, 1993, 
TR>  standoff near Waco.  "I'm baffled," said Donnie Carter, 
TR>  special agent in charge of the Houston ATF office.  "My 
TR>  instinct tells me someone could have done it as a prank, or 
TR>  someone could have taken it because they didn't like it 
TR>  being there.  I don't know." The McLennan County Sheriff's 
TR>  Department is investigating.

     Next time they should be more creative and effective in 
expressing an opinion.  There is no message regarding a missing 
plaque to those who do not know there should be one and there is 
always the risk of prosecution for vandalism.  

     But decorating it with manure or the human equivalent if it 
is outside any corporate limits or using it as a pissing pole 
does express an opinion quite effectively and it is always there 
for all to see.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (578)
To:      All                                    21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: PROPOSITION 188                        

                      Miss Grundy Is Alive
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/20>

     This November Californians will be voting on Proposition
188.  Many municipalities in the state have passed different
variations of laws banning smoking in certain places.
Proposition 188 seeks to abolish all of them and institute one
uniform statewide law.
     Let me first point out that ANY law restricting freedom is
onerous.  The only merit to Proposition 188 is that it will
replace many severely restrictive laws and its greatest demerit
is that it will impose restrictions where there are no
restrictions.  Overall it is no different in spirit or temperament
than the local ordinances.
     Proposition 188 is a primary example of the reason why there
should NEVER be compromise with those who would take away
liberty.  Compromise always gives up some degree of liberty.  One
should never compromise with evil.
     What is interesting to consider is the overall basis that
supports anti-smoking laws.  The people who support these laws
were against smoking from the day they first formed an opinion on
the subject.  That they have jumped on to statistically
insignificant studies of harm to non-smokers has no bearing.
Scratch an anti-smoking advocate spouting statistics and you will
find their true intellectual depth extends to whining, "it
stinks."
     Were that not enough, they are not content to simply avoid
it themselves.  Rather they are intent upon saving everyone else
from this fate worse than death, that is, the smell.  The ballot
box, membership in a congregation or something else voluntary is
the only justification one person can use to speak for any other
much less a group of others.  Yet these folks are more than happy
to speak for all non-smokers as they had power of attorney from
all of them.
     Also they appear to get some kind of thrill by imagining
they are in the majority and championing the rights of the
majority.  They get this fantasy by seeing smokers are in the
minority and pretending all non-smokers are as rabidly and
irrationally anti-smoking as they.  They fail to note the vast
majority of non-smokers who are in the "don't care" category.
That category is the largest of them all outnumbering both
smokers and non-smokers.
     They invent their arguments as they go along and have
little interest in reason.  For example, in their pompous
assumption they can speak for others they plead for the trivial
minority with true allergies to tobacco smoke while ignoring its
true rarity (as opposed to who start coughing at the sight of an
unlit cigarette.)  They hold smoking at work bars them from jobs.
     Strangely they are silent about the 100 times more common
people with back problems who are in pain when standing and never
demand jobs that require standing be banned.  That would of
course be a rational position but they are not interested in a
rational position.  "EET STEENKS!"
     There is a character in the national psyche known as Miss
Grundy a name given by the late Robert A. Heinlein.  This is a
person whose entire mission in life is to save others from
themselves.  Her one talent is rallying her fellow Miss Grundys
to noble causes.
     She lead the good fight for temperance, against alcohol and
is always in the forefront of protecting community standards.
She is characterized by being an old maid (matrimonially
challenged) and having nothing better to do with her life than
meddle in the lives of others.  Today here crusade is against
smoking.
     Miss Grundy would have us believe that were it not for
smoking we would live forever.  Of course she will deny that but
you will never get her to talk in terms of shortened life span.
She insists upon talking in terms of deaths due to smoking.
     She works to protect the "don't care" non-smokers from
smokers.  That they do not want her protection is of no interest
to her as it is in their own good.
     She wants to make smoking as difficult as possible for
smokers so that they will quit and she no longer has to work so
hard at imagining the smell of tobacco under her bed or in her
closet every night.  Miss Grundy is not concerned that smokers do
not care about the risks of smoking.  She knows she has to act
for their own good.
     Scratch Miss Grundy and she will tell you it stinks.  Ask
why she can not stand the sight of a smoker one hundred feet away
and she will tell you it stinks.  Ask why no one should smoke
around the "don't cares" and she will tell you it makes them
stink.
     Miss Grundy also bathes six times a day and buys FDS by the
case.
     It is a bit of a digression to note that the most primitive
and mindless hatreds are smell related.  Note the "smell alcohol
on his breath" references starting fights when there is no other
sign of intoxication.  There is an almost unique American
obsession with smells.  It appears to drive some of us into
irrational behavior.
     But to Miss Grundy her personal dislikes are automatically
wrong, evil, immoral and, if she not fat, fattening.  If she is
fat she will ignore the last.  The national fetish with health
only encourages her.  The most popular jogging guru in the
country drops dead of a heart attack while jogging and joggers
work to double their distance.
     She has an implicit belief that if all forms of unhealthy
behavior are avoided there she will live forever.  She wishes to
give that gift to everyone.  And beside, it stinks.
     Here is a true story of two friends of mine, a smoker and an
ex-smoker.  They were also friends and co-workers of each other.
The ex-smoker kept trying to get the smoker to quit so he would
live longer.  The smoker kept responding, "if I were hit by a
speeding truck and died tomorrow think of the enjoyment I would
lose."  Today the smoker is still alive.  The ex-smoker died of
being hit by a speeding truck.
     In the words of Jimmy Carter, "Life isn't fair."
     Thus there are three factors at work here.  At the highest
level we have the intrusion on individual liberty by activists.
Next we have the activists themselves who are mildly deranged by
smell and an absence of a real life of their own.  And finally a
childlike belief in avoiding "bad" things there will be a reward
of more life.
     I have to agree with Jimmy Carter on the subject, life is
not fair.  If all tobacco could be magically eliminated from the
world tomorrow it would not take Miss Grundy more than a week to
find another cause to intrude upon out liberties.  That is the
way of the beast and its number is the aucht and dreizehn Sturm
Soldaten.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (579)
To:      Wesley R. Elsberry                     21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: SIMMONS MUST RETRACT                   

WE>  I'm working on a list of books dealing with evolution, 
WE>  creationism, and the debate going on between the partisans 
WE>  for each.  Would you like to see it?

     I do not seem to have a list of books but here is a list of 
authors to run through your library's computer.

:Personages:
Appendix 1. Names encountered in discussions (spelling corrections
welcomed, key at end of Appendix 2):

Aardsma, Gerald       (S,p)
Agassiz, Louis        (T,b,a,_)
Asimov, Isaac         (E,a^3,b,_)
Austin, Steve         (S,g,a)
Ayala, Francisco      (E,b,a)
Baugh, Carl           (S)
Barnes, Thomas        (S,p)
Bethell, Tom          (T)
Burdick, Clifford     (?)
Cuvier, Georges       (T,b,a,_)
Darwin, Charles       (E,b,g,a,_)
Dawkins, Richard      (E,b,a)
Denton, Michael       (E,a)
Dobzhansky, Theodosius (E,a,b,_)
Dodson, Peter         (E,b,a)
Eldredge, Niles       (E,b,a)
Futuyma, Douglas      (E,b,a)
Gish, Duane           (S,i,a)
Goldschmidt, Richard  (E,b,a,_)
Gould, Stephen Jay    (E,b,a)
Grasse, Pierre        (b,a)
Ham, Ken              (S,a)
Hennig, Willi         (b,a,_)
Holland, John         (E,c,a)
Hoyle, Sir Fred       (t,a)
Huxley, Thomas        (E,b,a,_)
Kaufmann, Stuart      (?)
Kitcher, Phillip      (E,a,h)
Koestler, Arthur      (T,h,a)
Lamarck, Jean Baptiste de  (E,b,a,_)
Linneaus, Carolus     (b,a,_)
Lord Kelvin           (p,a,_)
Lyell, Charles        (g,a,_)
Malthus, Thomas       (a,_)
Mayr, Ernst           (E,a,b)
Mendel, Gregor        (b,_)
Morris, Henry         (S,e,a)
Morris, John          (S,e,a)
Numbers, Ronald L.    (E,a)
Osborn, Henry Fairfield  (E,b,a,_)
Paley, William        (T,a,_)
Patterson, Colin      (E,b,a)
Popper, Karl          (h,a)
Prigogine, Ilya       (E,p,a)
Raup, David           (E,b,a)
Ray, Tom              (E,b,c,a)
Ruse, Michael         (E,h,a)
Sedgwick, Adam        (g,a,_)
Segraves, Kelly       (S,a)
Setterfield, Barry    (S,p)
Velikovsky, Immanuel  (T,a,_)
Wallace, Alfred Russell  (E,b,a,_)
Wickramasinghe, Chandra  (m,a)
Wilder-Smith, A.E.    (S,a)
Wright, Sewall        (E,a,b)
Wise, Kurt            (?)


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (580)
To:      Frank Scheidt                          21 Sep 94 01:16:00
Subject: THE HEALTH YOU SAY!                    

FS>  What do we *really* need in a national health plan?  Do we 
FS>  need "100% healthcare insurance coverage"?  Of course not!  
FS>  What we *need* is 100% coverage of healthcare itself, not 
FS>  of *insurance*  -- and we already *have* that.  That is, 
FS>  our healthcare system is already open to all.  So what's the 
FS>  big deal with Clinton's so-called "Universal Coverage 
FS>  Health Plan"?  What's wrong with it is that it makes no 
FS>  credible effort to curtail costs ...  CURTAILMENT OF HEALTH 
FS>  *COSTS* -- *that's* what's really needed.

     Early on they tried to justify meddling with insurance by 
floating the idea that every country with socialized medicine had 
built upon the system that existed in their country before it 
started.  That did not quite sell as the response was that fully 
1/3 of the US system was Medicare and Medicaid and thus it was in 
fact the model simply force fitting the insurance industry into 
that mold.

     Further they are not pushing insurance at all, rather 
prepaid health care which is something quite different from 
insurance.  That is the trend of the top of the line insurance 
plans and certainly the goal of socialized medicine but it is not 
insurance.  

     Real insurance was proposed by Nixon and was shot down for 
some reason I do not remember, probably because he was a 
Republican.  He proposed catastrophic health insurance paid by 
taxes and it had some rather high threshold before it kicked in.  
I have always been against socialized medicine but that did have 
an appeal.  On the down side the threshold would have been 
politically lowered until is was effectively prepaid health care.

     As for cost control, it is the cost controls in that 1/3 
provided by the government that have most seriously contributed 
to the cost increases that are not directly attributable to more 
expensive treatments that are more desirable or effective than 
previous treatments.  That is called progress.  If you follow the 
plan you will find it is clear that the extra costs for research 
into new methods will be the hardest hit.


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+++ r_940923 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (632)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           20 Sep 94 12:20:10
Subject: The citadel                            

KP>  MG> In this case the man is a practicing attorney.  A judgement
KP>  MG> would be against income and assets.  Failure to pay would mean
KP>  MG> loss of license to practice.  There would be no collection
KP>  MG> problems.

KP>          Matt - it's not that simple.  Lawyers are among the 
KP>  most notorious deadbeats in America.  Ask any collection 
KP>  agent.  Wish that the bar would discipline those in personal 
KP>  debts.  I have one that owes me over $20k for work done for 
KP>  him as a lawyer.  The bar sayus squat!

     Do you know where he banks? (send him a check and read the 
back of it after cashed)  lives?  (phone book)  where he parks 
his car?  (same as the home.)  

KP>          I am no fan of Ms.  Reno, I need to see something 
KP>  lots more tangible than the claims of a disgruntled 
KP>  opponent.  Like the alleged victim who is the invisible 
KP>  girl.

     You have never recovered from being a democrat.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (642)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 18:06:10
Subject: D                                      

d


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (643)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 19:09:10
Subject: MONUMENT MISSING                       

TR> AP 09/10/94

TR>     WACO, Texas (AP) -- A monument to the federal agents 
TR>  killed in the shootout at the Branch Davidian compound has 
TR>  disappeared.  A state road maintenance crew noticed last 
TR>  week that the metal plaque on top of a waist-high pole was 
TR>  missing, said Helen Havelka, a spokeswoman for the 
TR>  Department of Transportation.  The plaque was engraved with 
TR>  the names of the four U.S.  Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and 
TR>  Firearms agents who were killed in the Feb.  28, 1993, 
TR>  standoff near Waco.  "I'm baffled," said Donnie Carter, 
TR>  special agent in charge of the Houston ATF office.  "My 
TR>  instinct tells me someone could have done it as a prank, or 
TR>  someone could have taken it because they didn't like it 
TR>  being there.  I don't know." The McLennan County Sheriff's 
TR>  Department is investigating.

     Next time they should be more creative and effective in 
expressing an opinion.  There is no message regarding a missing 
plaque to those who do not know there should be one and there is 
always the risk of prosecution for vandalism.  

     But decorating it with manure or the human equivalent if it 
is outside any corporate limits or using it as a pissing pole 
does express an opinion quite effectively and it is always there 
for all to see.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (646)
To:      All                                    20 Sep 94 22:11:10
Subject: PROPOSITION 188                        

                      Miss Grundy Is Alive
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/20>

     This November Californians will be voting on Proposition
188.  Many municipalities in the state have passed different
variations of laws banning smoking in certain places.
Proposition 188 seeks to abolish all of them and institute one
uniform statewide law.
     Let me first point out that ANY law restricting freedom is
onerous.  The only merit to Proposition 188 is that it will
replace many severely restrictive laws and its greatest demerit
is that it will impose restrictions where there are no
restrictions.  Overall it is no different in spirit or temperament
than the local ordinances.
     Proposition 188 is a primary example of the reason why there
should NEVER be compromise with those who would take away
liberty.  Compromise always gives up some degree of liberty.  One
should never compromise with evil.
     What is interesting to consider is the overall basis that
supports anti-smoking laws.  The people who support these laws
were against smoking from the day they first formed an opinion on
the subject.  That they have jumped on to statistically
insignificant studies of harm to non-smokers has no bearing.
Scratch an anti-smoking advocate spouting statistics and you will
find their true intellectual depth extends to whining, "it
stinks."
     Were that not enough, they are not content to simply avoid
it themselves.  Rather they are intent upon saving everyone else
from this fate worse than death, that is, the smell.  The ballot
box, membership in a congregation or something else voluntary is
the only justification one person can use to speak for any other
much less a group of others.  Yet these folks are more than happy
to speak for all non-smokers as they had power of attorney from
all of them.
     Also they appear to get some kind of thrill by imagining
they are in the majority and championing the rights of the
majority.  They get this fantasy by seeing smokers are in the
minority and pretending all non-smokers are as rabidly and
irrationally anti-smoking as they.  They fail to note the vast
majority of non-smokers who are in the "don't care" category.
That category is the largest of them all outnumbering both
smokers and non-smokers.
     They invent their arguments as they go along and have
little interest in reason.  For example, in their pompous
assumption they can speak for others they plead for the trivial
minority with true allergies to tobacco smoke while ignoring its
true rarity (as opposed to who start coughing at the sight of an
unlit cigarette.)  They hold smoking at work bars them from jobs.
     Strangely they are silent about the 100 times more common
people with back problems who are in pain when standing and never
demand jobs that require standing be banned.  That would of
course be a rational position but they are not interested in a
rational position.  "EET STEENKS!"
     There is a character in the national psyche known as Miss
Grundy a name given by the late Robert A. Heinlein.  This is a
person whose entire mission in life is to save others from
themselves.  Her one talent is rallying her fellow Miss Grundys
to noble causes.
     She lead the good fight for temperance, against alcohol and
is always in the forefront of protecting community standards.
She is characterized by being an old maid (matrimonially
challenged) and having nothing better to do with her life than
meddle in the lives of others.  Today here crusade is against
smoking.
     Miss Grundy would have us believe that were it not for
smoking we would live forever.  Of course she will deny that but
you will never get her to talk in terms of shortened life span.
She insists upon talking in terms of deaths due to smoking.
     She works to protect the "don't care" non-smokers from
smokers.  That they do not want her protection is of no interest
to her as it is in their own good.
     She wants to make smoking as difficult as possible for
smokers so that they will quit and she no longer has to work so
hard at imagining the smell of tobacco under her bed or in her
closet every night.  Miss Grundy is not concerned that smokers do
not care about the risks of smoking.  She knows she has to act
for their own good.
     Scratch Miss Grundy and she will tell you it stinks.  Ask
why she can not stand the sight of a smoker one hundred feet away
and she will tell you it stinks.  Ask why no one should smoke
around the "don't cares" and she will tell you it makes them
stink.
     Miss Grundy also bathes six times a day and buys FDS by the
case.
     It is a bit of a digression to note that the most primitive
and mindless hatreds are smell related.  Note the "smell alcohol
on his breath" references starting fights when there is no other
sign of intoxication.  There is an almost unique American
obsession with smells.  It appears to drive some of us into
irrational behavior.
     But to Miss Grundy her personal dislikes are automatically
wrong, evil, immoral and, if she not fat, fattening.  If she is
fat she will ignore the last.  The national fetish with health
only encourages her.  The most popular jogging guru in the
country drops dead of a heart attack while jogging and joggers
work to double their distance.
     She has an implicit belief that if all forms of unhealthy
behavior are avoided there she will live forever.  She wishes to
give that gift to everyone.  And beside, it stinks.
     Here is a true story of two friends of mine, a smoker and an
ex-smoker.  They were also friends and co-workers of each other.
The ex-smoker kept trying to get the smoker to quit so he would
live longer.  The smoker kept responding, "if I were hit by a
speeding truck and died tomorrow think of the enjoyment I would
lose."  Today the smoker is still alive.  The ex-smoker died of
being hit by a speeding truck.
     In the words of Jimmy Carter, "Life isn't fair."
     Thus there are three factors at work here.  At the highest
level we have the intrusion on individual liberty by activists.
Next we have the activists themselves who are mildly deranged by
smell and an absence of a real life of their own.  And finally a
childlike belief in avoiding "bad" things there will be a reward
of more life.
     I have to agree with Jimmy Carter on the subject, life is
not fair.  If all tobacco could be magically eliminated from the
world tomorrow it would not take Miss Grundy more than a week to
find another cause to intrude upon out liberties.  That is the
way of the beast and its number is the aucht and dreizehn Sturm
Soldaten.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (675)
To:      All                                    21 Sep 94 09:47:00
Subject: Only in America                        

     Consider the impossible has happened.

     We now have a president that makes Jimmy Carter look good.

     What a country!

---
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+++ r_940924 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (180)
To:      Kelsey Bjarnason                       21 Sep 94 12:40:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ar 2/              

KB>   This is not to say that the stats you gave are to be 
KB>   presumed guilty, merely that I have little reason to 
KB>   accept them at face value, especially in light of 
KB>   traditionally flawed fundy stats and your inclusion of 
KB>   "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" in your sources.

     My response to a creative statistician follows.

=====

       I have this crystal of table salt.  It probably has 
  around a trillion sodium chloride molecules in it.  Two 
  molecules had to come together in exactly the right way to 
  start the process.  Each succeeding molecule had to get into 
  exactly the right place and in the right orientation.
 
       Considering this simple molecule there are only two 
  possible orientations so the odds against this crystal of 
  salt forming are two to the one trillionth power or 
  2^1,000,000,000,000.  As this number far dwarfs your 
  10^40,000 it clears shows
 
       1)  God designs every grain of salt
 
       2)  life by natural processes is 20,000,000 times more 
  likely than a grain of salt by natural processes
 
       3)  you may be willing to admit statistics does not 
  apply in the first place.

     But then if you really want to talk about chance, the human 
generation has been about 20 years until the last century.  Five 
generations per century, sixty centuries lead to 300 generations.

     In each ejaculation there are some 10,000,000 sperm.  One 
one makes each succeeding generation.  The chance that you exist 
from your grandfather, only two generations is 10,000,000 * 
10,000,000.  

     The chances that you exist from the beginning of recorded 
history ONLY (or from 4004 BC which you prefer to believe) is 
10,000,000 to the 300th power.  Roughly 10 to the 2099 power.  
which means you are too improbable to exist and therefore you do 
not exist.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (186)
To:      All                                    21 Sep 94 21:33:10
Subject: HATIAN QUESTIONS                       

     I have a minor question here.  

     The objective of this media event over Haiti was to get rid 
of Cedras.  There is now such an agreement.

     What are we doing occupying the country?  If anyone can 
answer this why is there not plans for them to leave on 16 
October 1994?

     =====

     Another minor point.  If the police and military really were 
as murderous as Clinton said he believed, why is he offering them 
police jobs in the US?  I suggest we add them to the Hong Kong 
police as targets in the mercenary hating tradition of our 
country.       


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (212)
To:      Jim Higgins                            22 Sep 94 08:03:00
Subject: BIG BANG VARIATION                     

JH>  MG> No.   Dark matter is an hypothesis.  There is no evidence it
JH>  MG> exists.

JH>  This answer is not enough.  What does this hypothesis 
JH>  hypothesize dark matter to be, if not the several forms of 
JH>  neutrino and similarly acting undiscovered particles?

     It hypothesizes it to be nothing in particular.  It only 
only a search for additional mass to cause the forms and rotation 
rates of galaxies that we observed. 


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (213)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           22 Sep 94 08:03:00
Subject: HATE\                                  

LG>  LG>          Are you offering me a hand job, Sweet Cakes?

LG>  MG> Don't forget to have two bags ready for when she shows up.

LG>           A barf bag for sure....then what do I need another 
LG>           one for?
LG> 
LG>           A body bag in case the sight of her totally 
LG>           grosses me out?
LG> 
LG>           I have been meaning to tell you I would be very 
LG>           interested in receiving a newsletter if you start 
LG>           one.
LG> 
LG>           Have you ever considered publishing it in disk 
LG>           form and saving the printing costs?

     For an ugly woman one bag for her head is enough.  For the 
truly ugly women the second goes on your head just in case.

     It sure beats waking up with your arm under a coyote ugly 
one.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (214)
To:      All                                    22 Sep 94 08:03:00
Subject: HATIAN QUESTIONS                       

     I have a minor question here.  

     The objective of this media event over Haiti was to get rid 
of Cedras.  There is now such an agreement.

     What are we doing occupying the country?  If anyone can 
answer this why is there not plans for them to leave on 16 
October 1994?

     =====

     Another minor point.  If the police and military really were 
as murderous as Clinton said he believed, why is he offering them 
police jobs in the US?  I suggest we add them to the Hong Kong 
police as targets in the mercenary hating tradition of our 
country.       


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (215)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           22 Sep 94 08:03:00
Subject: INTOLERANCE                            

LG>  MG>  Actually he was appearing at the Comedy Club and doing his 
LG>  MG>  Dan Quayle imitation.
LG>  MG> 
LG>  MG>  It is election season, remember?  Democrats always turn 
LG>  MG>  conservative in election seasons.  It gets votes.  
LG>  MG>  Strangely voters believe them every time.

LG>           I have been trying since Aug 14th to get Celluite 
LG>           Annie Ross to comment on Clinton getting religion.  
LG>           That was the day he uttered the infamous phrase 
LG>           (ROTFLMAO) "Pray for me!"

LG>           BTW -- did you know that the school board of Plano 
LG>           TX (Ann Ross' hometown) has been taken over by the 
LG>           religious right?
LG> 
LG>           She won't comment about that either.

     She will be quiet about religion for a few weeks then jump 
in again hoping you forget to ask the questions again.  Very like 
Meriwhether and Nusholtz.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (216)
To:      Jim Higgins                            22 Sep 94 08:03:00
Subject: OSCILLATION                            

JH>  MG>  Actually it is the opposite but it is a common 
JH>  MG>  misunderstanding.  The escape velocity for both Earth and 
JH>  MG>  Jupiter to leave the solar system is the same.

JH>  Assuming they start at the same distance from the sun, and 
JH>  ignoring effects from other planets not evenly distributed 
JH>  in the solar system, yes...  but the instantaneous velocity 
JH>  required for escape, starting from their initial orbital 
JH>  positions is higher for the Earth because it is closer to 
JH>  the sun, the approximate center of mass for the system.

     Here you are describing the change in velocity required not 
the absolute velocity needed.

JH>  MG>  The change in escape velocity would be higher for earth.  
JH>  MG>  The amount energy required to achieve that change in escape 
JH>  MG>  velocity would be greater for Jupiter because of the 
JH>  MG>  greater mass.

JH>  I have no idea what you mean by "change in escape 
JH>  velocity."  Will you explain?

     That should have read change in velocity, delta v.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (220)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        22 Sep 94 09:48:10
Subject: A Polite Society                       

JB>  MG>  At the moment I keep six suitable for home defense (three 
JB>  MG>  specifically bought for the purpose) and five others.  
JB>  MG>  There has never been less than one at times up to around 
JB>  MG>  20.  No one harmed in 28 years.

JB>  You know what mine are, and we're thinking of upgrading 
JB>  soon.  

     And if you read what I posted on my latest acquisition, the 
S&W 645, obviously a .45.  Trivial recoil and does a clean and 
short vertical rise and not the twist to the right of the 
government model.  If you are a traditionalist it is a good 
alternative to the 9mm.

Did I tell you that I had the chance to shoot an 
JB>  AR-15 a few months back?  

     The crime bill passed.  It was number six on the list.  I 
got my AK-47 before it passed.  That was number 1 on the list.  
We may soon find ourselves in the village.  Be seeing you.

That was waaayyy fun.  I had to 
JB>  hold it under the cartridge rather than the "proper" way 
JB>  because I'm so small, but I shot better than Hubby did (at 
JB>  250 yards).

     Not surprising.  I have noticed that being a general rule as 
long as the recoil is below the threshold of flinching.  Perhaps 
it is less coffee but women tend to be able to hold a gun 
steadier than men at the same experience level.   

     When above that threshold it means only spending extra range 
time to get over flinching.  And as I have pointed out reaction 
to recoil has a lot more to do with it than body weight.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (221)
To:      Ian Lin                                22 Sep 94 10:05:10
Subject: big bang                               

IL>  I've been busy with doing work required of me first.  When 
IL>  I'm not doing that, I'm reading email or science journals.  
IL>  I expected to come by some information as it's presented 
IL>  and I just hadn't encountered the Big Bang ideas yet.  In 
IL>  honesty, it's just not what has interested me so I've not 
IL>  made a huge effort to get that information.

     It interests you enough to be weighing in with an opinion 
here despite your lack of knowledge on the subject.  Why not 
stick with what you do know?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (222)
To:      Ian Lin                                22 Sep 94 10:05:10
Subject: big bang variation                     

IL>  MG> No.   Dark matter is an hypothesis.  There is no evidence it
IL>  MG> exists.

IL>  Okay, but is the hypothesis that it's made of neutrinos? Is 
IL>  that one of many hypotheses?

     It is not that it is made of anything, simply that it exists 
to explain the structure and rotation rate of the galaxies.  All 
candidates are under consideration.  The search at the moment is 
primarily for aggregated matter that did not make it to star 
(fusion) status.  I haven't seen a thing on the neutrino with 
mass search in years.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (223)
To:      Spiros Bettas                          22 Sep 94 10:09:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark - 1                 

SB> MG>       The "flood" required enough water to cover the highest 
SB> MG>  mountain which is around six miles high.  That works out to 
SB> MG>  roughly 1,200,000,000 cubic miles of water.  That is a 
SB> MG>  sphere of water roughly 680 miles in diameter.  That is six 
SB> MG>  times the
SB> MG> 
SB> MG>       There was no flood.  There is no evidence of a flood, 
SB> MG>  period.

SB>  There was a program broadcast a few years ago and 
SB>  rebroadcast recently titled, "The Incredible Discovery of 
SB>  Noah's Ark."  I DO hope you've seen it, Matt.  It was a 
SB>  most startling source of entertainment.
SB> 
SB>  Two of my favourite parts are:  1) the enhanced digitized 
SB>  picture of the ark (about two or three dark pixels 
SB>  surrounded by white) and the best part, 2) a computer 
SB>  animation of the flood which violates physics as we know 
SB>  it.
SB> 
SB>  You know, I really should dig it up (I kept a copy on video 
SB>  tape) and post a transcript of the narration of the 
SB>  animation.

     The part I liked best was the fly over of the Grand Canyon 
showing stratification while the voice over was claiming there 
was no stratification.

Area # 53  BIOGENESIS               01-16-94 20:51      Message # 9925
From    : LARRY MEYERING
To      : ALL
Subj    : The Great Ark Hoax (1)

An (est.) 20 million people saw the CBS special presentation on 
Noah's Ark.  The program was presented as if it had a bases in 
reality.  The reality is - it was a hoax.  The fundamentalist 
religious propaganda machine leapt on the chance to make a 
scientific sounding presentation of its religious dogma.  Many 
people were fooled by this pseudoscientific TV film into 
believing that there is evidence for the Biblical mythology of 
Noah and his Ark.  All such `evidence' has been, without 
exception, wrong or as in this case proven to be a hoax.

Sheppard Gordon posted the following on the Odyssey Fringe 
Science Research Echo about the hoax.

{Start}
10/30/93
THE LOS ANGELES TIMES

The man who said he discovered the snow-covered location of 
Noah's Ark high on Mt. Ararat in Turkey, and who displayed what 
he claimed to be an ancient piece of wood from inside the ark as 
proof on a CBS special earlier this year, now says it was a hoax.  
George Jammal, an out-of-work Israeli actor living in North Long 
Beach, admitted in an interview this week that he made up the 
story to expose those who produce and broadcast what he considers 
to be poorly researched religious propaganda.

Presented with this information by The Times, CBS decided Friday 
to scrap two projects that were in development with Sun 
International Pictures, the Salt Lake City-based production 
company that made "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark," which 
CBS broadcast in February to an estimated 20 million viewers.  
Part of the network's decision not to move ahead with the Sun 
programs "Revelations" and "The UFO Phenomenon" stemmed from the 
tactics Sun used several months ago to try to pry a confession 
from Jammal, including threats that CBS was going to sue 
him-which the network adamantly denies.

"All of this has clearly made us reexamine our business 
relationship with Sun, and we won't be going forward with those 
projects," network spokeswoman Susan Tick said Friday. But 
"Mysteries of the Ancient World," another program from Sun 
examining such phenomena as the Sphinx, Nostradamus, the Bermuda 
Triangle and the Shroud of Turin, has essentially been completed 
and will air on CBS. That program has been carefully reviewed for 
accuracy by the network's legal department and program practices 
department, Tick said.

"Incredible Discovery" came under strong criticism because its 
case for the existence of Noah's Ark, as described in the Bible, 
was said to be based heavily on the views of creationists who 
oppose the scientific theory of evolution.

"We're a motion-picture producer, and we don't take a point of 
view, creationist or otherwise," countered Sun President Allan 
Pedersen.

Asked if Sun planned to revise its research techniques to prevent 
similar hoaxes, Pedersen said that such safety measures have 
always been in place.

"We certainly will be as conscientious as we can and scrutinize 
sources as closely as we can in the future," he said. "But 
frankly, we took the same due diligence before all this. My 
stance is that it's just about impossible to defend against that 
kind of well-planned and well-thought-out deception."

From Jammal's perspective, the deception was painfully obvious. 
The "sacred wood" from the ark was actually from some railroad 
tracks in Long Beach, he said, and he has never set foot in 
Turkey. "This is a scam that has been pulled on the American 
public, and it's gone too far," Jammal explained from his 
three-bedroom home this week, holding the scrap of wood that he 
hardened by cooking it in an oven. Referring to Sun and CBS, he 
said, "They're foisting religious propaganda on Americans and 
making them believe it's true. So I hoaxed the hoaxters."

CBS does not plan to run an on-air correction. "A, there's no 
format to do it, and B, it's just going to attract more attention 
to this," Tick said. "Plus, the show never purported the wood was 
from the ark, only that this person on the show said it was."

* When national news reports first surfaced in June that Jammal 
might have been lying, Sun stood firmly behind Jammal, who held 
to his story. Jammal's original plan to reveal the stunt in his 
own time was ruined when a friend of his who was in on the 
hoax-Gerald Larue, a USC professor emeritus of biblical history 
and archeology-began talking to the press.

Sun producers called Larue the hoaxter, retained a lawyer for 
Jammal, presented an eight-page defense to CBS and wrote letters 
to Time Magazine, The Times and others to defend their 
production. CBS, in turn, launched its own internal 
investigation.

Now, even Sun admits it was wrong. "We were obviously duped, and 
all I can do is admit to that," Pedersen said. "We'll take the 
portion that concerned him out of the picture for any future 
airings." That won't be on CBS, though, which will not repeat the 
program.

Jammal contends that Sun knew all along he was an impostor. After 
"Incredible Discovery" was broadcast, numerous scholars and 
critics of creation science, including Larue, wrote to CBS and 
Sun insisting that the show was bunk.

"This was a dishonest program," Larue said. "Look at the very 
title: `The Amazing Discovery of Noah's Ark.' They didn't 
discover it."


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (224)
To:      Spiros Bettas                          22 Sep 94 10:15:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark - 2                 

Robert S. Dietz, a professor emeritus in geology at Arizona State 
University, even asked Sun for Jammal's piece of wood so he could 
run a Carbon-14 test to determine its authenticity-something Sun 
producers say they did not do, even though Jammal gave them a 
small chip of the wood. Sun did not provide it to him, and Jammal 
said that a Sun researcher told him not to show his wood to 
Dietz.  " `Do not show him the wood,' I was told," Jammal said. 
"Doesn't that mean they know the wood is fake?"

The hoax actually started eight years ago when Jammal heard a 
radio debate between a humanist scholar and the head of the 
Institute for Creation Research in El Cajon, Calif.  An atheist 
who was raised by Catholic and Greek Orthodox parents, Jammal 
concocted a story about how he visited the ark and then sent a 
letter to the institute, riddled with inside jokes, to see if 
anyone would believe him. For instance, his companion on the 
trip, Vladimir Sobitchsky, was a play on "s.o.b." Jammal also 
sent a copy to the Pope.

"I gave them absurd names because I was laughing at their 
absurdities," Jammal said. "All this started as a practical joke, 
to write a letter and see what their reaction was. I didn't know 
I would end up on film."

In 1986, John Morris, a geologist and Mt. Ararat explorer 
associated with the institute, interviewed Jammal, who had 
studied in the local library on the people, customs and geography 
of that area of Turkey.

"He wanted pictures, of course, so I made up the story about how 
Vladimir died on the mountain, and the camera went down with 
him," he said.

That interview, which included hand-drawn maps by Jammal, was 
filed and almost forgotten-until 1992, when Sun contacted the 
institute looking for people who had firsthand knowledge of 
Noah's Ark.

For the Sun interview, Jammal carefully studied the 1986 
transcript. He also prepared the fake wood-a piece of California 
pine-by frying it on his kitchen stove in a bizarre mix of 
blueberry and almond wine, iodine, sweet-and-sour barbecue sauce 
and teriyaki sauce. He even made a home video of himself cooking 
it up.

Jammal resisted admitting the hoax for a long time; he never 
returned the calls of CBS attorneys. Nor did he cave in when a 
Sun representative kept calling him in June and July, leaving 
intimidating messages on his answering machine. One message said: 
"There's talk of a serious lawsuit against you, George, and I 
don't want to see that happen, because the resources of CBS would 
just wipe you out."

"We never considered a lawsuit," network spokeswoman Tick said 
Friday.

So why did Jammal finally fess up, after all this time? "When I 
heard that CBS was going forward with more phony, religious, 
documentary, pseudoscience programs, that's when my volcano 
erupted," Jammal said.

When told Friday that his tactics budged the CBS network, he let 
out a belly laugh. "Prof. Larue and many other scholars wrote 
letters of protest and nobody listened," he said. "Well, now 
they're listening and they're talking. I feel I made a 
difference."

Will CBS Realize the Error of Its Ways? The network finally 
admits `The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark,' was flawed but 
does more harm to its credibility by refusing to run a 
correction.

11/01/93
THE LOS ANGELES TIMES

Hear a whooshing sound? It's the credibility of CBS falling like 
a brick hurled from the top of its Black Rock headquarters in New 
York.

Bulletin! Bulletin!

* George Jammal did not, as he had claimed, visit Turkey's snowy 
Mt. Ararat.

* Thus, the hunk of wood he displayed during a two-hour CBS 
television program last February was not, as he had claimed, a 
piece of the legendary Noah's Ark.

* The wood was not, as he had claimed, a "gift from God."  CBS 
finally acknowledged to Times reporter Daniel Cerone on Friday 
that it had been duped. It did so only after Cerone had 
confronted the network with Jammal's admission that the story he 
told on a CBS prime-time documentary-style special, "The 
Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark," was itself an incredible 
hoax.

* Yet no more incredible than the behavior of CBS through all of 
this. After appearing to stonewall this months-old controversy 
almost since its inception, the network told Cerone that it had 
no plans to inform its viewers ("The Incredible Discovery of 
Noah's Ark" drew an estimated audience of 20 million) that at 
least some of what the independently produced program presented 
as truth was untrue.

No on-the-air correction? CBS, whose own storied history 
encompasses the history of U.S. television itself? Where is its 
sense of fairness? Where is its integrity?  C'mon, now, just a 
teeny, weeny correction.

"A, there's no format to do it, and B, it's just going to attract 
more attention to this," CBS spokeswoman Susan Tick told Cerone. 
And C, she added, "the show never purported the wood was from the 
ark, only that this person on the show said it was."  Come again?

* A. No format for a correction? Let's see now, "CBS This 
Morning" has no trouble finding time to relentlessly plug the 
network's entertainment programs. Surely, it could find time to 
correct just one.

There's also "Late Show With David Letterman," where CBS 
performers regularly turn up to advertise their shows on the 
network. You can bet that good old Dave would love to spend a few 
seconds setting the record straight on Noah's Ark.

What's more, there's always "The CBS Evening News." Dan Rather 
recently made a speech in which he savaged non-news reality 
programs run by networks. He included the Noah's Ark special 
without naming CBS as the offending network.

* So why not put the correction on Rather's newscast? He loves a 
good story. And a major television network getting hoaxed by a 
man passing off some railroad timber (that's what Jammal now says 
it was) as a piece of Noah's Ark is a great story.

* B. It would just attract more attention? Well, shouldn't that 
be the idea, to make sure no one is misled by misinformation 
appearing under the CBS banner?

* C. The show didn't purport the wood was from the ark? If so, 
why wasn't its title "The Alleged Incredible Discovery of Noah's 
Ark"?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (225)
To:      Spiros Bettas                          22 Sep 94 10:15:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark - 3                 

Flashback: It was eight months ago that CBS aired "The Incredible 
Discovery of Noah's Ark," which looked like and pretended to be a 
documentary, even if CBS now says it wasn't. Produced by Sun 
International Pictures of Utah, it was immediately accused by 
some scholars of being a sham. CBS apparently wasn't listening. 
It was four months ago that Time magazine published an article 
disclosing that much of the program-which used testimony from 
"expert" witnesses to buttress the creationist theory that Noah's 
Ark existed-was untrue. Within two weeks, the Time article was 
followed by others from the Associated Press and the Los Angeles 
Times that also questioned the validity of portions of the 
program. Time, the AP and The Times quoted Gerald Larue, a USC 
professor emeritus of biblical history and archeology, as saying 
he had coached Jammal on how to fool the producers into believing 
that he had really returned from Mt. Ararat with a piece of 
Noah's Ark. The purpose, Larue said, was to expose the "sloppy 
research" of Sun International Pictures, whose previous 
documentary-style programs were also accused by some specialists 
of being substantially false.  After months of defending Jammal, 
who did not speak out publicly until recently, Sun now says it 
was, indeed, fooled by him. It's "impossible to defend against 
that kind of well-planned and well-thought-out deception," said 
Sun President Allan Pederson. Oh, stop it. One way to do it is to 
have these alleged artifacts examined by real authorities. 
Suspiciously, Sun did not even bother to verify the authenticity 
of Jammal's wood by having it tested by experts. And the brain 
trust at CBS never bothered to ask for verification of the wood. 
To say nothing of closely examining other components of this 
fishy-looking program that many viewers probably thought came 
from the network's news division.

In an ideal world, it would be CBS News, not some cockamamie 
outside production company, that would be getting two hours of 
prime time for a documentary. But the world ceased being ideal a 
long time ago.

* So, despite getting stung by Jammal the Impostor, CBS is not 
immediately severing its relationship with Sun. Although CBS says 
it will not air two previously planned Sun programs, 
"Revelations" and "The UFO Confessions," it will telecast a 
near-completed third Sun production, "Mysteries of the Ancient 
World."

The program covers such phenomena as the Sphinx, Nostradamus, the 
Bermuda Triangle and the Shroud of Turin.

Not to worry, though, says spokeswoman Tick, because CBS has 
checked it for accuracy. So listen up, you would-be hoaxers, 
you're not dealing with Beavis and Butt-head here.

However, if anyone happens to come across Atlantis, the CBS 
number is. . . . 

{End}


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (226)
To:      Ian Lin                                22 Sep 94 10:23:10
Subject: Joycelyn Elders                        

IL>  MG> You missed Somalia?

IL>  Oh, Aspin caused something in Somalia? I heard there was 
IL>  trouble there, our troops were there too, but I heard very 
IL>  little about it.

     Bush sent troops there to establish a safe area and feed 
people.  Clinton changed the mission to a search and destroy for 
Adid.  Aspen refused them the equipment needed for the new 
mission.  We lost soldiers as a direct result.

     Aspin resigned over the incident; Clinton should have.

IL>  IL> It's pathetic. Wanna move to Canada?

IL>  MG> June, July, Winter bothers me.

IL>  We don't have winter in June or July.  

     Last I heard June and July is summer followed by winter.  
Also a joke that I used when offered a job in Connecticut.  

It's hotter than San 
IL>  Francisco or even L.A. sometimes in the summer

     You need to study meteorology also.  Compare your 
temperatures to and inland city like Kansas City in summer.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (229)
To:      Spiros Bettas                          22 Sep 94 10:32:10
Subject: Length, etc.                           

SB>  You don't need to, Matt.  I've seen it happen to almost 
SB>  every single one of your multi-message posts.  If you have 
SB>  documentation, though, have you succeeded in localizing the 
SB>  problem?  I'm sure the sysop of whatever system is to blame 
SB>  would be interested in debugging his board.

     Unfortunately it appears the last sysop to know what he was 
doing on Fido left the area over a year ago.  The ones left do 
not appear to have much more sense than to keep the BBS software 
working some of the time.  I have pointed out the problem to all 
of them for a couple months since I started isolating the problem 
and they do not appear to understand what I am talking about.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (237)
To:      All                                    22 Sep 94 13:07:10
Subject: Vital National Interest                

                 Vital National Interest In Oil
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/22>

     Back during the preparations for the Gulf War I wrote on
this subject but I did not give it wide distribution.  As the
same issues are being raised again it is time to make the case
more clearly and correct the distribution problem.
     If you have been following what I have been writing on the
Federal Reserve you have an idea as to the problem with
determining a value for paper currency.  I have pointed out the
problem with using gold or other commodities to back dollars is
that the value of the currency is controlled by the value of the
commodity used to back the currency.
     Our vital national interest in the Middle East was not
created by us.  It was created by OPEC.  Back when OPEC was
founded over 20 years ago it determined one of the fundamental
principles of US foreign policy.  It pegged the price of oil in
US dollars.
     That does not mean it will take the Franc or Mark or Yen
equivalent of US dollars.  That means it wants US dollars.  That
means all of its customers must have US dollars to pay for oil.
     Japan dumps its products in the US in order the get dollars
for oil, not to put US companies out of business although that is
often necessary to get enough dollars.  It is the same for other
countries.  These dollars float around the world in a complex set
of loans and counter loans in an inverted pyramid.  If you were
to take one dollar from the bottom you will lose ten dollars from
the top.
     Now for the problem of the dollar.  Technically it is a
floating currency, its price determined by what other's will pay
for dollars in other currencies.  In practice it is backed by
oil.
     Oil is as good as any other backing for the dollar save for
one thing, the reserves are readily established and it is
consumed.  Even the US has not stockpiled oil according to a
twenty year old plan.  There is no equivalent of Ft. Knox in the
world.
     Thus there is no store of wealth in the world. at this time.
There is only control of the production rate to determine the
value of the dollar and, by that inverted pyramid, the stability
of the world's monetary system.
     From there arises our interest in the availability of oil.
If oil is scarce the value of dollars increases, if plentiful it
decreases.  The world's interest in the value of the dollar is
the same as ours.  Our interest is strictly in the rate of
production of oil worldwide.
     There are many ways to control the production of oil.  The
first is the easiest, let there be a free market in energy and
energy utilization means.  At first Iran and then with the
emergence of OPEC, lead by Venezuela of all countries, the
producing countries attempted to raise prices beyond a true
production cost and reasonable profit.  That resulted in
worldwide inflation and major conservation measures until OPEC
was earning little more than before they raised prices.
     Next they hired a few intelligent economists and learned to
set the price of oil as a "fair" price.  That price was always a
touch above where it should be as hope springs eternal to make a
killing in the market.  That should have resulted in world wide
inflation lead by OPEC.
     That is where primarily Kuwait came in. Kuwait cheated.
It over produced.  It kept the price of oil where it belonged
rather than the little bit above where OPEC pegged it.
     That is what lead to the primary complaint of Iraq against
Kuwait, that Kuwait was over producing.  Had Iraq kept Kuwait
then OPEC would have controlled, as a minimum, the inflation rate
of effectively all the money in the world.  That is a degree of
sovereignty the big players in the money markets were willing to
give up.
     You can tell the big players as those who contributed to
paying the costs of the Persian Gulf war as opposed to those who
had to bribed into supporting the war.
     The next way to keep OPEC reasonable is to assure there are
always Kuwaits, that there is effectively a competitive market.
To do this it is necessary to keep any one member from
controlling too large a share of oil production much like the
anti-trust laws of the US to prevent monopolies.  In fact the
West has gone so far as to object to the Middle East having a
large enough refinery capability to be able to ship a finished
product only thus preventing the economic power of vertical
integration.
     Thus the invasion of Kuwait eliminated the largest
production cheat in the world guaranteeing an OPEC controlled,
worldwide inflation rate.  It also gave Iraq too great a share of
world wide production and also put Iraq in the position to take
over Saudi Arabia and give Iraq a stranglehold on the world's
financial markets.
     Back to the inverted pyramid.  Increase oil production
sufficient to decrease the value of the dollar 1% and it takes
away multiples of 1% of the value of every currency of every
currency in the world that matters.  That means the value of
everything priced in those currencies would drop by that amount.
     That might be well for the US overall as Japan would need
fewer dollars to buy oil.  But consider were Iraq to decrease
production.  In a single stroke Iraq could have started an oil
embargo that would have eclipsed the one Iran two decades ago.
     From this came our vital national interests.  The sentiment
during the Iran lead embargo was to nuke Iran.  The public
outrage against Iran was much worse than against Iraq.
     And thus our interest in liberating Kuwait; the stability
and reasonable control of the world monetary system.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (238)
To:      All                                    22 Sep 94 15:28:10
Subject: The Haitian Threat to Nat              

             The Haitian Threat To National Security
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/22>

     Lets consider for the moment that when President Clinton
said the situation in Haiti was a threat to the security of the
United States that he was not lying again.  If it is the truth
just what could that threat be?

     If one part of Haiti slaughtered the other half in very
nasty ways that would have no impact upon the security of the
United States. Human rights violations in Haiti do not impact the
security of the United States.  The economic conditions in Haiti
have nothing to do with our national security.  So there must be
some physical reason.
     The only real, physical impact Haiti was having on the
United States was by means of its refugees.  Refugees come here
and cost money. Preventing them from coming here costs money.
Housing them some place costs money.  But there is a difference
in whose money.
     Preventing them from coming and housing them some place else
costs the federal government money.  Although that is our money
there has not been an organized or planned revolt against
spending that money.  But when they actually arrive the cost is
state money.  And there is at least one state that was prepared
for an armed confrontation to prevent being forced to incur those
costs.
     That state is Florida.  The Democratic governor Lawton
Chiles, when faced with thousands of Cubans was four hours away
from signing an executive order commanding every armed agency in
the state to surround the federal immigration buildings and
prevent Cubans from leaving the building.  President Clinton
moved quickly to change the Cuban immigration policy by
preventing their entry into the country.
     There have been only one such state -- federal
confrontations in the history of the country.  That was George
Wallace trying to enforce state segregation laws.  Although
integration was far from popular at that time Wallace garnered no
allies in his actions.
     However, immigration, legal or illegal, is a volatile issue
in at least three states.  Florida took the lead in suing the
federal government to recover the cost of immigrants.  It was
quickly joined by California and Texas.
     Had Chiles gone through with the armed confrontation with
the Federal government it is quite likely that California and
Texas would have joined in.  Certainly Republican Governor Pete
Wilson of California would have had little restrain his actions.
"Ma" Richards, even though a Democrat, would likely have seen the
election results on the wall and joined in as they joined in
filing their own lawsuits to recover costs.  That Arizona and New
Mexico would have held failed to join the confrontation is
difficult to imagine.
     And there is the national security interest of the United
states.  At one time three of the four largest states in the
nation would have been in an armed confrontation with President
Clinton's administration at the same time.  That can easily be
construed as an insurrection while Governor Wallace was passed
off as an aberration and later as a minority political hero.
     But in this case three of the top four most populous states
in the union having instigated an armed confrontation with the
government is something else entirely.  Avoiding such a
confrontation is certainly in the security interests of the
Unites States.
     Consider if President Clinton had not capitulated under
threat but had actually faced an armed confrontation.  There
would have been two rather simple choices.  Nationalize the
Florida National Guard and force the Cubans on the state or
capitulate.
     The former would simply have put off the confrontation to
where it could not be done without great loss to the federal
government.  If the federal government forced their entry into
the state then the state simply had to order their claims not be
processed.  As guardsmen are not qualified to implement the
welfare regulations they at best could require everyone be
qualified as they could not judge unfair disqualification.
     The latter to capitulate to an armed state would set a
president to terminate any federal policy or law the state does
not like.  "We whipped them once, we can do it again."  It could
have lead to the dissolution of the union without the states
offering a physically united front and thus target as did the
Confederacy. Armed confrontation could have been applied to any
point of disagreement.
     The third possibility, that it might have lead to a
revitalization of the 9th and 10th amendments is the best thing
that could have happened and would perhaps have been the best for
all of us but that would have been rather remote had it started
with an armed confrontation.
     In any event, there you have the only possible reason Haiti
could have been a threat to the security of the United States,
that Haitian immigration would have lead to an armed
confrontation between the states and the federal government.  On
the other hand, President Clinton could have been lying again.
Perhaps he was not.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (243)
To:      All                                    22 Sep 94 19:57:00
Subject: The Haitian Threat to Nat              

             The Haitian Threat To National Security
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/22>

     Lets consider for the moment that when President Clinton
said the situation in Haiti was a threat to the security of the
United States that he was not lying again.  If it is the truth
just what could that threat be?

     If one part of Haiti slaughtered the other half in very
nasty ways that would have no impact upon the security of the
United States. Human rights violations in Haiti do not impact the
security of the United States.  The economic conditions in Haiti
have nothing to do with our national security.  So there must be
some physical reason.
     The only real, physical impact Haiti was having on the
United States was by means of its refugees.  Refugees come here
and cost money. Preventing them from coming here costs money.
Housing them some place costs money.  But there is a difference
in whose money.
     Preventing them from coming and housing them some place else
costs the federal government money.  Although that is our money
there has not been an organized or planned revolt against
spending that money.  But when they actually arrive the cost is
state money.  And there is at least one state that was prepared
for an armed confrontation to prevent being forced to incur those
costs.
     That state is Florida.  The Democratic governor Lawton
Chiles, when faced with thousands of Cubans was four hours away
from signing an executive order commanding every armed agency in
the state to surround the federal immigration buildings and
prevent Cubans from leaving the building.  President Clinton
moved quickly to change the Cuban immigration policy by
preventing their entry into the country.
     There have been only one such state -- federal
confrontations in the history of the country.  That was George
Wallace trying to enforce state segregation laws.  Although
integration was far from popular at that time Wallace garnered no
allies in his actions.
     However, immigration, legal or illegal, is a volatile issue
in at least three states.  Florida took the lead in suing the
federal government to recover the cost of immigrants.  It was
quickly joined by California and Texas.
     Had Chiles gone through with the armed confrontation with
the Federal government it is quite likely that California and
Texas would have joined in.  Certainly Republican Governor Pete
Wilson of California would have had little restrain his actions.
"Ma" Richards, even though a Democrat, would likely have seen the
election results on the wall and joined in as they joined in
filing their own lawsuits to recover costs.  That Arizona and New
Mexico would have held failed to join the confrontation is
difficult to imagine.
     And there is the national security interest of the United
states.  At one time three of the four largest states in the
nation would have been in an armed confrontation with President
Clinton's administration at the same time.  That can easily be
construed as an insurrection while Governor Wallace was passed
off as an aberration and later as a minority political hero.
     But in this case three of the top four most populous states
in the union having instigated an armed confrontation with the
government is something else entirely.  Avoiding such a
confrontation is certainly in the security interests of the
Unites States.
     Consider if President Clinton had not capitulated under
threat but had actually faced an armed confrontation.  There
would have been two rather simple choices.  Nationalize the
Florida National Guard and force the Cubans on the state or
capitulate.
     The former would simply have put off the confrontation to
where it could not be done without great loss to the federal
government.  If the federal government forced their entry into
the state then the state simply had to order their claims not be
processed.  As guardsmen are not qualified to implement the
welfare regulations they at best could require everyone be
qualified as they could not judge unfair disqualification.
     The latter to capitulate to an armed state would set a
president to terminate any federal policy or law the state does
not like.  "We whipped them once, we can do it again."  It could
have lead to the dissolution of the union without the states
offering a physically united front and thus target as did the
Confederacy. Armed confrontation could have been applied to any
point of disagreement.
     The third possibility, that it might have lead to a
revitalization of the 9th and 10th amendments is the best thing
that could have happened and would perhaps have been the best for
all of us but that would have been rather remote had it started
with an armed confrontation.
     In any event, there you have the only possible reason Haiti
could have been a threat to the security of the United States,
that Haitian immigration would have lead to an armed
confrontation between the states and the federal government.  On
the other hand, President Clinton could have been lying again.
Perhaps he was not.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (244)
To:      All                                    22 Sep 94 19:57:00
Subject: Vital National Interest                

                 Vital National Interest In Oil
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/22>

     Back during the preparations for the Gulf War I wrote on
this subject but I did not give it wide distribution.  As the
same issues are being raised again it is time to make the case
more clearly and correct the distribution problem.
     If you have been following what I have been writing on the
Federal Reserve you have an idea as to the problem with
determining a value for paper currency.  I have pointed out the
problem with using gold or other commodities to back dollars is
that the value of the currency is controlled by the value of the
commodity used to back the currency.
     Our vital national interest in the Middle East was not
created by us.  It was created by OPEC.  Back when OPEC was
founded over 20 years ago it determined one of the fundamental
principles of US foreign policy.  It pegged the price of oil in
US dollars.
     That does not mean it will take the Franc or Mark or Yen
equivalent of US dollars.  That means it wants US dollars.  That
means all of its customers must have US dollars to pay for oil.
     Japan dumps its products in the US in order the get dollars
for oil, not to put US companies out of business although that is
often necessary to get enough dollars.  It is the same for other
countries.  These dollars float around the world in a complex set
of loans and counter loans in an inverted pyramid.  If you were
to take one dollar from the bottom you will lose ten dollars from
the top.
     Now for the problem of the dollar.  Technically it is a
floating currency, its price determined by what other's will pay
for dollars in other currencies.  In practice it is backed by
oil.
     Oil is as good as any other backing for the dollar save for
one thing, the reserves are readily established and it is
consumed.  Even the US has not stockpiled oil according to a
twenty year old plan.  There is no equivalent of Ft. Knox in the
world.
     Thus there is no store of wealth in the world. at this time.
There is only control of the production rate to determine the
value of the dollar and, by that inverted pyramid, the stability
of the world's monetary system.
     From there arises our interest in the availability of oil.
If oil is scarce the value of dollars increases, if plentiful it
decreases.  The world's interest in the value of the dollar is
the same as ours.  Our interest is strictly in the rate of
production of oil worldwide.
     There are many ways to control the production of oil.  The
first is the easiest, let there be a free market in energy and
energy utilization means.  At first Iran and then with the
emergence of OPEC, lead by Venezuela of all countries, the
producing countries attempted to raise prices beyond a true
production cost and reasonable profit.  That resulted in
worldwide inflation and major conservation measures until OPEC
was earning little more than before they raised prices.
     Next they hired a few intelligent economists and learned to
set the price of oil as a "fair" price.  That price was always a
touch above where it should be as hope springs eternal to make a
killing in the market.  That should have resulted in world wide
inflation lead by OPEC.
     That is where primarily Kuwait came in. Kuwait cheated.
It over produced.  It kept the price of oil where it belonged
rather than the little bit above where OPEC pegged it.
     That is what lead to the primary complaint of Iraq against
Kuwait, that Kuwait was over producing.  Had Iraq kept Kuwait
then OPEC would have controlled, as a minimum, the inflation rate
of effectively all the money in the world.  That is a degree of
sovereignty the big players in the money markets were willing to
give up.
     You can tell the big players as those who contributed to
paying the costs of the Persian Gulf war as opposed to those who
had to bribed into supporting the war.
     The next way to keep OPEC reasonable is to assure there are
always Kuwaits, that there is effectively a competitive market.
To do this it is necessary to keep any one member from
controlling too large a share of oil production much like the
anti-trust laws of the US to prevent monopolies.  In fact the
West has gone so far as to object to the Middle East having a
large enough refinery capability to be able to ship a finished
product only thus preventing the economic power of vertical
integration.
     Thus the invasion of Kuwait eliminated the largest
production cheat in the world guaranteeing an OPEC controlled,
worldwide inflation rate.  It also gave Iraq too great a share of
world wide production and also put Iraq in the position to take
over Saudi Arabia and give Iraq a stranglehold on the world's
financial markets.
     Back to the inverted pyramid.  Increase oil production
sufficient to decrease the value of the dollar 1% and it takes
away multiples of 1% of the value of every currency of every
currency in the world that matters.  That means the value of
everything priced in those currencies would drop by that amount.
     That might be well for the US overall as Japan would need
fewer dollars to buy oil.  But consider were Iraq to decrease
production.  In a single stroke Iraq could have started an oil
embargo that would have eclipsed the one Iran two decades ago.
     From this came our vital national interests.  The sentiment
during the Iran lead embargo was to nuke Iran.  The public
outrage against Iran was much worse than against Iraq.
     And thus our interest in liberating Kuwait; the stability
and reasonable control of the world monetary system.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
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+++ r_940927 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (261)
To:      Jj Judkins                             24 Sep 94 20:12:10
Subject: 3/3:Mt.Carmel                          

     I find it amazing the truth can be posted so many times and 
still there are people like you who continue to post your 
personal fantasies.

JJ>  DV>  How would you feel being asked to surrender children to 
JJ>  DV>  people who murdered their relatives ?

JJ> Who was murdered?  They resisted arrest!

     There was no attempt to arrest anyone.  They had a search 
warrant but it was not served.  [from court testimony by 
prosecution witnesses.]

JJ>  DV> What about the gov't agents who fired indescriminately

JJ>  Fired indescriminately?  These people were resisting arrest 

     That has been dealt with.

JJ>  and were using their kids as a psycological shield, 

     You mean when the BATF came in shooting and throwing hand 
grenades (again court testimony by prosecution witnesses) there 
was some kind of shield?  Would you explain how you know that as 
you are the first to have posted this particular fabrication.

hoping 
JJ>  the FEDS would say "Oh, I'm so sorry.  We want to arrest 
JJ>  you but since you have kiddies in the house well, we'll 
JJ>  just come back next month when you will be expecting us and 
JJ>  have more fortifications in place.

     As you know there was to a search only.

JJ>  DV>  (courtroom testimony) into a home where these children 
JJ>  DV>  lived ?

JJ>  Who gave the testimony? Was it a cop?  I doubt it.  This was 
JJ>  not a home but the beginnings of a fortress.  The children 
JJ>  were in a special shelter were they not?

     It was testimony from BATF officers under oath.  There were 
no police involved in either attack.  

JJ>  DV>  knew that the one place where they could have gone for 
JJ>  DV>  protection (underground bus) had been blocked by gov't 
JJ>  DV>  orders

JJ>  Why should madman koresh let that stop him?  He did as he 
JJ>  pleased anyway..

     The government blocked it by deliberately collapsing a wall 
of the building onto the entrance to it with a tank.  But you 
know that.

JJ>  DV> Jamar, the FBI tactical commander during the standoff, told
JJ>  DV> reporters at a news conference that Mr. Koresh could have
JJ>  DV> saved some followers from the fire and gas by hiding them in
JJ>  DV> the bus.

JJ>  That places ALL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE DEATHS on the head 
JJ>  of madman koresh and his lunatic leaders.

     Would then explain why the FBI, four hours before the raid 
called all the hospitals in the area asking about burn beds?  Can 
you explain why they told a Texas State employee around the same 
time that no one was coming out alive?  Would you explain why the 
FBI told the fire department not to show up that day for the 
first time?

     This was before the fire started.  Please explain how they 
were able to predict the future so well.

JJ>  madman koresh screwed up or did he?  He wanted martyrdom 
JJ>  and got it.

     That can not be made congruent with the actions and 
statements of the FBI before the fire started.  

JJ>  DV> "Had Koresh wished those children to survive, that was one
JJ>       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
JJ>  DV> place they could have hidden safely when he had the fires
JJ>  DV> started," Mr. Jamar stated. "In that bus, the air was cool."

JJ>  madman koresh, like Jim Jones, tried to take his followers 
JJ>  straight to hell with him and did a pretty good job of 
JJ>  doing it.  As stated above madman koresh COULD have saved 
JJ>  the children.  It is on his, shall we wax religous and say 
JJ>  "soul" that the blame for the deaths must be placed.  Not 
JJ>  the ineptitude of an Attourney General that has the brain 
JJ>  of a fire ant.

     You obviously are completely ignorant of the subject.  You 
have no business pretending your opinion is more than a personal 
fantasy.

JJ>  DV> Excessive Force and Cover Up, Carol Moore et al, available
JJ>  DV> from Committee For Waco Justice, P.O. Box 33037, Washington,
JJ>  DV> D.C.,

JJ>  Daniel, do you really believe this crap or are you just 
JJ>  playing devil's advocate?
JJ> 
JJ>      The Committee for Waco Justice, the Wacko Komittie are 
JJ>  a bunch of politicaly correct S.O.B.'s that are just trying 
JJ>  to stir up trouble like the Vietnam protesters of the 
JJ>  60's-70's.

     Please cite the sources you are using to support this 
assertion.  Please take all the screens you need.

JJ>  DV>  So are you saying that we should apply a religous test to 
JJ>  DV>  whoever wants to buy a gun ? Wouldn't that be 
JJ>  DV>  unconstitutional

JJ>  Buying guns for personal use?  No, that wasn't illegal.  
JJ>  Resisting arrest IS illegal.

     As you know there was no attempt to arrest anyone and they 
had no warrant to do so.

JJ>  DV> Those people were minding their own business when the gov't
JJ>  DV> attacked them.

JJ> NOT!

     You should have read the testimony of the prosecution 
witnesses.  They agree there was an attack.  They contradict 
every claim you have made.  But then, they were the BATF and did 
it.  What do they know compared to you?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (262)
To:      Andrew Cummins                         24 Sep 94 20:27:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ar 1/              

     It is good to the premier brain dead fundie is back for 
another bombing run.  

AC>  KB>  Actually, you've got it backwards again.  Science deals 
AC>  KB>  with data first, then theories which attempt to explain the 
AC>  KB>  data.  So far, the total count of observed deities - or 
AC>  KB>  actions of deities - is zero.

AC>  Oh please, get a brain transplant.  I've yet to know any 
AC>  evolutionist who starts with data first.  They start with 
AC>  evolution first and try to figure out how to fit the data 
AC>  into evolution.  As for observed deities, let me bop you 
AC>  good, and you'll observe the deity.

     We all know you know nothing of evolution or science.  There 
is no need to continue proving it.

AC>  HAHA...  watta marooon...  What about evolution isn't random? 
AC>  And, why isn't it random?  If life isn't too complex to 
AC>  happen by chance, how complex would it have to be to happen 
AC>  by chance?  And, what the heck do you know about the 
AC>  complexity of life other than it is more complex than you 
AC>  or any man can comprehend?  Or, are you saying that life 
AC>  didn't happen by chance?  Then how did it happen?

       I have this crystal of table salt.  It probably has 
  around a trillion sodium chloride molecules in it.  Two 
  molecules had to come together in exactly the right way to 
  start the process.  Each succeeding molecule had to get into 
  exactly the right place and in the right orientation.
 
       Considering this simple molecule there are only two 
  possible orientations so the odds against this crystal of 
  salt forming are two to the one trillionth power or 
  2^1,000,000,000,000.  As this number far dwarfs your 
  10^40,000 it clears shows
 
       1)  God designs every grain of salt
 
       2)  life by natural processes is 20,000,000 times more 
  likely than a grain of salt by natural processes
 
       3)  you may be willing to admit statistics does not 
  apply in the first place.
     But then if you really want to talk about chance, the human 
generation has been about 20 years until the last century.  Five 
generations per century, sixty centuries lead to 300 generations.

     In each ejaculation there are some 10,000,000 sperm.  One 
one makes each succeeding generation.  The chance that you exist 
from your grandfather, only two generations is 10,000,000 * 
10,000,000.  

     The chances that you exist from the beginning of recorded 
history ONLY (or from 4004 BC which you prefer to believe) is 
10,000,000 to the 300th power.  Roughly 10 to the 2099 power.  
which means you are too improbable to exist and therefore you do 
not exist.



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (263)
To:      Willie Martin                          24 Sep 94 20:30:10
Subject: Flood / Noah's Ark                     

WM>  > MG>       The "flood" required enough water to cover the highest 
WM>  > MG>  mountain which is around six miles high.  That works out to 
WM>  > MG>  roughly 1,200,000,000 cubic miles of wter.  That is a 
WM>  > MG>  sphere of water roughly 680 miles in diameter.  That is six 
WM>  > MG>  times the

WM>  If you really want to know where the flood was located 
WM>  according to the Bible then send your name and address and 
WM>  an SASE And I will send you a study that I have made on the 
WM>  subject.  And will show you FROM THE SCRIPTURES where the 
WM>  flood actually was.

WM> Send your SASE to:

WM>                          Willie Martin
WM>                          P.O. Box 15280
WM>                          Arlington, Texas 76015

     Why should I waste the postage when you can type in the 
idiocy directly?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (264)
To:      Ann Ross                               24 Sep 94 20:35:10
Subject: "won"                                  

AR>          Since it is so clear after all this time you will 
AR>          never be intelligent enough to "get it," I have to 
AR>          TELL you that you are so inferior that nothing you 
AR>          ever say will have the ability to even faze me.  

     Not even if we talk about your weight?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (265)
To:      Ann Ross                               24 Sep 94 20:39:10
Subject: 1/3RE:MT.CARMEL                        

AR>          It is very clear that they are trying to rewrite 
AR>          what happened to use it as a emotional weapon 
AR>          *against* the government in order to forment an 
AR>          insurrection in this country.  

     No, Annimal.  We are recounting the facts as they happened.  
And what actually happened is what bring up the talk 
insurrection.  But you know that.
     

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (346)
To:      All                                    25 Sep 94 08:51:00
Subject: The Haitian Threat to Nat              

             The Haitian Threat To National Security
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/22>

     Lets consider for the moment that when President Clinton
said the situation in Haiti was a threat to the security of the
United States that he was not lying again.  If it is the truth
just what could that threat be?

     If one part of Haiti slaughtered the other half in very
nasty ways that would have no impact upon the security of the
United States. Human rights violations in Haiti do not impact the
security of the United States.  The economic conditions in Haiti
have nothing to do with our national security.  So there must be
some physical reason.
     The only real, physical impact Haiti was having on the
United States was by means of its refugees.  Refugees come here
and cost money. Preventing them from coming here costs money.
Housing them some place costs money.  But there is a difference
in whose money.
     Preventing them from coming and housing them some place else
costs the federal government money.  Although that is our money
there has not been an organized or planned revolt against
spending that money.  But when they actually arrive the cost is
state money.  And there is at least one state that was prepared
for an armed confrontation to prevent being forced to incur those
costs.
     That state is Florida.  The Democratic governor Lawton
Chiles, when faced with thousands of Cubans was four hours away
from signing an executive order commanding every armed agency in
the state to surround the federal immigration buildings and
prevent Cubans from leaving the building.  President Clinton
moved quickly to change the Cuban immigration policy by
preventing their entry into the country.
     There have been only one such state -- federal
confrontations in the history of the country.  That was George
Wallace trying to enforce state segregation laws.  Although
integration was far from popular at that time Wallace garnered no
allies in his actions.
     However, immigration, legal or illegal, is a volatile issue
in at least three states.  Florida took the lead in suing the
federal government to recover the cost of immigrants.  It was
quickly joined by California and Texas.
     Had Chiles gone through with the armed confrontation with
the Federal government it is quite likely that California and
Texas would have joined in.  Certainly Republican Governor Pete
Wilson of California would have had little restrain his actions.
"Ma" Richards, even though a Democrat, would likely have seen the
election results on the wall and joined in as they joined in
filing their own lawsuits to recover costs.  That Arizona and New
Mexico would have held failed to join the confrontation is
difficult to imagine.
     And there is the national security interest of the United
states.  At one time three of the four largest states in the
nation would have been in an armed confrontation with President
Clinton's administration at the same time.  That can easily be
construed as an insurrection while Governor Wallace was passed
off as an aberration and later as a minority political hero.
     But in this case three of the top four most populous states
in the union having instigated an armed confrontation with the
government is something else entirely.  Avoiding such a
confrontation is certainly in the security interests of the
Unites States.
     Consider if President Clinton had not capitulated under
threat but had actually faced an armed confrontation.  There
would have been two rather simple choices.  Nationalize the
Florida National Guard and force the Cubans on the state or
capitulate.
     The former would simply have put off the confrontation to
where it could not be done without great loss to the federal
government.  If the federal government forced their entry into
the state then the state simply had to order their claims not be
processed.  As guardsmen are not qualified to implement the
welfare regulations they at best could require everyone be
qualified as they could not judge unfair disqualification.
     The latter to capitulate to an armed state would set a
president to terminate any federal policy or law the state does
not like.  "We whipped them once, we can do it again."  It could
have lead to the dissolution of the union without the states
offering a physically united front and thus target as did the
Confederacy. Armed confrontation could have been applied to any
point of disagreement.
     The third possibility, that it might have lead to a
revitalization of the 9th and 10th amendments is the best thing
that could have happened and would perhaps have been the best for
all of us but that would have been rather remote had it started
with an armed confrontation.
     In any event, there you have the only possible reason Haiti
could have been a threat to the security of the United States,
that Haitian immigration would have lead to an armed
confrontation between the states and the federal government.  On
the other hand, President Clinton could have been lying again.
Perhaps he was not.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Sometimes the Gov has to kill kids in order to save them.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (347)
To:      All                                    25 Sep 94 08:51:00
Subject: Vital National Interest                

                 Vital National Interest In Oil
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/22>

     Back during the preparations for the Gulf War I wrote on
this subject but I did not give it wide distribution.  As the
same issues are being raised again it is time to make the case
more clearly and correct the distribution problem.
     If you have been following what I have been writing on the
Federal Reserve you have an idea as to the problem with
determining a value for paper currency.  I have pointed out the
problem with using gold or other commodities to back dollars is
that the value of the currency is controlled by the value of the
commodity used to back the currency.
     Our vital national interest in the Middle East was not
created by us.  It was created by OPEC.  Back when OPEC was
founded over 20 years ago it determined one of the fundamental
principles of US foreign policy.  It pegged the price of oil in
US dollars.
     That does not mean it will take the Franc or Mark or Yen
equivalent of US dollars.  That means it wants US dollars.  That
means all of its customers must have US dollars to pay for oil.
     Japan dumps its products in the US in order the get dollars
for oil, not to put US companies out of business although that is
often necessary to get enough dollars.  It is the same for other
countries.  These dollars float around the world in a complex set
of loans and counter loans in an inverted pyramid.  If you were
to take one dollar from the bottom you will lose ten dollars from
the top.
     Now for the problem of the dollar.  Technically it is a
floating currency, its price determined by what other's will pay
for dollars in other currencies.  In practice it is backed by
oil.
     Oil is as good as any other backing for the dollar save for
one thing, the reserves are readily established and it is
consumed.  Even the US has not stockpiled oil according to a
twenty year old plan.  There is no equivalent of Ft. Knox in the
world.
     Thus there is no store of wealth in the world. at this time.
There is only control of the production rate to determine the
value of the dollar and, by that inverted pyramid, the stability
of the world's monetary system.
     From there arises our interest in the availability of oil.
If oil is scarce the value of dollars increases, if plentiful it
decreases.  The world's interest in the value of the dollar is
the same as ours.  Our interest is strictly in the rate of
production of oil worldwide.
     There are many ways to control the production of oil.  The
first is the easiest, let there be a free market in energy and
energy utilization means.  At first Iran and then with the
emergence of OPEC, lead by Venezuela of all countries, the
producing countries attempted to raise prices beyond a true
production cost and reasonable profit.  That resulted in
worldwide inflation and major conservation measures until OPEC
was earning little more than before they raised prices.
     Next they hired a few intelligent economists and learned to
set the price of oil as a "fair" price.  That price was always a
touch above where it should be as hope springs eternal to make a
killing in the market.  That should have resulted in world wide
inflation lead by OPEC.
     That is where primarily Kuwait came in. Kuwait cheated.
It over produced.  It kept the price of oil where it belonged
rather than the little bit above where OPEC pegged it.
     That is what lead to the primary complaint of Iraq against
Kuwait, that Kuwait was over producing.  Had Iraq kept Kuwait
then OPEC would have controlled, as a minimum, the inflation rate
of effectively all the money in the world.  That is a degree of
sovereignty the big players in the money markets were willing to
give up.
     You can tell the big players as those who contributed to
paying the costs of the Persian Gulf war as opposed to those who
had to bribed into supporting the war.
     The next way to keep OPEC reasonable is to assure there are
always Kuwaits, that there is effectively a competitive market.
To do this it is necessary to keep any one member from
controlling too large a share of oil production much like the
anti-trust laws of the US to prevent monopolies.  In fact the
West has gone so far as to object to the Middle East having a
large enough refinery capability to be able to ship a finished
product only thus preventing the economic power of vertical
integration.
     Thus the invasion of Kuwait eliminated the largest
production cheat in the world guaranteeing an OPEC controlled,
worldwide inflation rate.  It also gave Iraq too great a share of
world wide production and also put Iraq in the position to take
over Saudi Arabia and give Iraq a stranglehold on the world's
financial markets.
     Back to the inverted pyramid.  Increase oil production
sufficient to decrease the value of the dollar 1% and it takes
away multiples of 1% of the value of every currency of every
currency in the world that matters.  That means the value of
everything priced in those currencies would drop by that amount.
     That might be well for the US overall as Japan would need
fewer dollars to buy oil.  But consider were Iraq to decrease
production.  In a single stroke Iraq could have started an oil
embargo that would have eclipsed the one Iran two decades ago.
     From this came our vital national interests.  The sentiment
during the Iran lead embargo was to nuke Iran.  The public
outrage against Iran was much worse than against Iraq.
     And thus our interest in liberating Kuwait; the stability
and reasonable control of the world monetary system.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (348)
To:      All                                    25 Sep 94 08:51:00
Subject: Fuel for the abortion fev              

 **********  Original From: JOSEPH CARNAGE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 09/16/94 - 0019377
 **********             On: TABB - 0003 - BAYCHAT
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

XC: BAYCHAT

From: wolffie@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.satire
Subject: business opportunity, investors wanted

We all know that the life of the soul begins at conception and that the
souls of innocent murdered unborn babies go straight to heaven without
having to risk eternal damnation like the unlucky born ones must.  Sort of
makes you wonder why abortion isn't a sacrament, doesn't it?  Because the
saving of souls seems to be a priority among Christian believers, there
ought to be an opportunity for profit in this.

Here at El Cheapo (TM) Salvation, Inc., we have plans to convert an
abandonned fish hatchery into a $25 million in-vitro fertilization facility
capable of producing upwards of 50 billion human zygotes a day.  These will
be promptly dumped, or used to water the plant landscaping, thereby sending
50 billion human souls per day into eternal happiness in heaven (our
theological legal advisors have warned us that this procedure constitutes
mortal sin for the operators and investors of the plant, but we're all
counting rather heavily on deathbed confessions).

The potential profitability is enormous.  Imagine full-page ads running
continually in all of the national tabloids and religious magazines:  "For
only $19.95, you, too, can sponsor the salvation of 10,000 souls, just send
your check or money order to..."

Investors are needed now to cover startup costs.  Now is the time to get in
opn the ground floor of this going operation.  For prospectus, send e-mail
to:

El Cheapo (TM) Salvation, Inc.


----------------(*)                           Internet: clawr@vnet.ibm.com

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Stand aside!  I write large messages.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (349)
To:      All                                    25 Sep 94 08:52:00
Subject: The Haitian Threat to Nat              

             The Haitian Threat To National Security
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/22>

     Lets consider for the moment that when President Clinton
said the situation in Haiti was a threat to the security of the
United States that he was not lying again.  If it is the truth
just what could that threat be?

     If one part of Haiti slaughtered the other half in very
nasty ways that would have no impact upon the security of the
United States. Human rights violations in Haiti do not impact the
security of the United States.  The economic conditions in Haiti
have nothing to do with our national security.  So there must be
some physical reason.
     The only real, physical impact Haiti was having on the
United States was by means of its refugees.  Refugees come here
and cost money. Preventing them from coming here costs money.
Housing them some place costs money.  But there is a difference
in whose money.
     Preventing them from coming and housing them some place else
costs the federal government money.  Although that is our money
there has not been an organized or planned revolt against
spending that money.  But when they actually arrive the cost is
state money.  And there is at least one state that was prepared
for an armed confrontation to prevent being forced to incur those
costs.
     That state is Florida.  The Democratic governor Lawton
Chiles, when faced with thousands of Cubans was four hours away
from signing an executive order commanding every armed agency in
the state to surround the federal immigration buildings and
prevent Cubans from leaving the building.  President Clinton
moved quickly to change the Cuban immigration policy by
preventing their entry into the country.
     There have been only one such state -- federal
confrontations in the history of the country.  That was George
Wallace trying to enforce state segregation laws.  Although
integration was far from popular at that time Wallace garnered no
allies in his actions.
     However, immigration, legal or illegal, is a volatile issue
in at least three states.  Florida took the lead in suing the
federal government to recover the cost of immigrants.  It was
quickly joined by California and Texas.
     Had Chiles gone through with the armed confrontation with
the Federal government it is quite likely that California and
Texas would have joined in.  Certainly Republican Governor Pete
Wilson of California would have had little restrain his actions.
"Ma" Richards, even though a Democrat, would likely have seen the
election results on the wall and joined in as they joined in
filing their own lawsuits to recover costs.  That Arizona and New
Mexico would have held failed to join the confrontation is
difficult to imagine.
     And there is the national security interest of the United
states.  At one time three of the four largest states in the
nation would have been in an armed confrontation with President
Clinton's administration at the same time.  That can easily be
construed as an insurrection while Governor Wallace was passed
off as an aberration and later as a minority political hero.
     But in this case three of the top four most populous states
in the union having instigated an armed confrontation with the
government is something else entirely.  Avoiding such a
confrontation is certainly in the security interests of the
Unites States.
     Consider if President Clinton had not capitulated under
threat but had actually faced an armed confrontation.  There
would have been two rather simple choices.  Nationalize the
Florida National Guard and force the Cubans on the state or
capitulate.
     The former would simply have put off the confrontation to
where it could not be done without great loss to the federal
government.  If the federal government forced their entry into
the state then the state simply had to order their claims not be
processed.  As guardsmen are not qualified to implement the
welfare regulations they at best could require everyone be
qualified as they could not judge unfair disqualification.
     The latter to capitulate to an armed state would set a
president to terminate any federal policy or law the state does
not like.  "We whipped them once, we can do it again."  It could
have lead to the dissolution of the union without the states
offering a physically united front and thus target as did the
Confederacy. Armed confrontation could have been applied to any
point of disagreement.
     The third possibility, that it might have lead to a
revitalization of the 9th and 10th amendments is the best thing
that could have happened and would perhaps have been the best for
all of us but that would have been rather remote had it started
with an armed confrontation.
     In any event, there you have the only possible reason Haiti
could have been a threat to the security of the United States,
that Haitian immigration would have lead to an armed
confrontation between the states and the federal government.  On
the other hand, President Clinton could have been lying again.
Perhaps he was not.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Sometimes the Gov has to kill kids in order to save them.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
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SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (350)
To:      All                                    25 Sep 94 08:52:00
Subject: Vital National Interest                

                 Vital National Interest In Oil
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <9/22>

     Back during the preparations for the Gulf War I wrote on
this subject but I did not give it wide distribution.  As the
same issues are being raised again it is time to make the case
more clearly and correct the distribution problem.
     If you have been following what I have been writing on the
Federal Reserve you have an idea as to the problem with
determining a value for paper currency.  I have pointed out the
problem with using gold or other commodities to back dollars is
that the value of the currency is controlled by the value of the
commodity used to back the currency.
     Our vital national interest in the Middle East was not
created by us.  It was created by OPEC.  Back when OPEC was
founded over 20 years ago it determined one of the fundamental
principles of US foreign policy.  It pegged the price of oil in
US dollars.
     That does not mean it will take the Franc or Mark or Yen
equivalent of US dollars.  That means it wants US dollars.  That
means all of its customers must have US dollars to pay for oil.
     Japan dumps its products in the US in order the get dollars
for oil, not to put US companies out of business although that is
often necessary to get enough dollars.  It is the same for other
countries.  These dollars float around the world in a complex set
of loans and counter loans in an inverted pyramid.  If you were
to take one dollar from the bottom you will lose ten dollars from
the top.
     Now for the problem of the dollar.  Technically it is a
floating currency, its price determined by what other's will pay
for dollars in other currencies.  In practice it is backed by
oil.
     Oil is as good as any other backing for the dollar save for
one thing, the reserves are readily established and it is
consumed.  Even the US has not stockpiled oil according to a
twenty year old plan.  There is no equivalent of Ft. Knox in the
world.
     Thus there is no store of wealth in the world. at this time.
There is only control of the production rate to determine the
value of the dollar and, by that inverted pyramid, the stability
of the world's monetary system.
     From there arises our interest in the availability of oil.
If oil is scarce the value of dollars increases, if plentiful it
decreases.  The world's interest in the value of the dollar is
the same as ours.  Our interest is strictly in the rate of
production of oil worldwide.
     There are many ways to control the production of oil.  The
first is the easiest, let there be a free market in energy and
energy utilization means.  At first Iran and then with the
emergence of OPEC, lead by Venezuela of all countries, the
producing countries attempted to raise prices beyond a true
production cost and reasonable profit.  That resulted in
worldwide inflation and major conservation measures until OPEC
was earning little more than before they raised prices.
     Next they hired a few intelligent economists and learned to
set the price of oil as a "fair" price.  That price was always a
touch above where it should be as hope springs eternal to make a
killing in the market.  That should have resulted in world wide
inflation lead by OPEC.
     That is where primarily Kuwait came in. Kuwait cheated.
It over produced.  It kept the price of oil where it belonged
rather than the little bit above where OPEC pegged it.
     That is what lead to the primary complaint of Iraq against
Kuwait, that Kuwait was over producing.  Had Iraq kept Kuwait
then OPEC would have controlled, as a minimum, the inflation rate
of effectively all the money in the world.  That is a degree of
sovereignty the big players in the money markets were willing to
give up.
     You can tell the big players as those who contributed to
paying the costs of the Persian Gulf war as opposed to those who
had to bribed into supporting the war.
     The next way to keep OPEC reasonable is to assure there are
always Kuwaits, that there is effectively a competitive market.
To do this it is necessary to keep any one member from
controlling too large a share of oil production much like the
anti-trust laws of the US to prevent monopolies.  In fact the
West has gone so far as to object to the Middle East having a
large enough refinery capability to be able to ship a finished
product only thus preventing the economic power of vertical
integration.
     Thus the invasion of Kuwait eliminated the largest
production cheat in the world guaranteeing an OPEC controlled,
worldwide inflation rate.  It also gave Iraq too great a share of
world wide production and also put Iraq in the position to take
over Saudi Arabia and give Iraq a stranglehold on the world's
financial markets.
     Back to the inverted pyramid.  Increase oil production
sufficient to decrease the value of the dollar 1% and it takes
away multiples of 1% of the value of every currency of every
currency in the world that matters.  That means the value of
everything priced in those currencies would drop by that amount.
     That might be well for the US overall as Japan would need
fewer dollars to buy oil.  But consider were Iraq to decrease
production.  In a single stroke Iraq could have started an oil
embargo that would have eclipsed the one Iran two decades ago.
     From this came our vital national interests.  The sentiment
during the Iran lead embargo was to nuke Iran.  The public
outrage against Iran was much worse than against Iraq.
     And thus our interest in liberating Kuwait; the stability
and reasonable control of the world monetary system.

                            * * * * *

        Further distribution is encouraged by the author.

      1425 San Mateo Dr., Dunedin, Fl. 34698, 813-733-5479


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Let Waco be a lesson to all Americans.  Bill Clinton

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
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SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (351)
To:      All                                    25 Sep 94 08:52:00
Subject: Fuel for the abortion fev              

 **********  Original From: JOSEPH CARNAGE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 09/16/94 - 0019377
 **********             On: TABB - 0003 - BAYCHAT
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

XC: BAYCHAT

From: wolffie@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.satire
Subject: business opportunity, investors wanted

We all know that the life of the soul begins at conception and that the
souls of innocent murdered unborn babies go straight to heaven without
having to risk eternal damnation like the unlucky born ones must.  Sort of
makes you wonder why abortion isn't a sacrament, doesn't it?  Because the
saving of souls seems to be a priority among Christian believers, there
ought to be an opportunity for profit in this.

Here at El Cheapo (TM) Salvation, Inc., we have plans to convert an
abandonned fish hatchery into a $25 million in-vitro fertilization facility
capable of producing upwards of 50 billion human zygotes a day.  These will
be promptly dumped, or used to water the plant landscaping, thereby sending
50 billion human souls per day into eternal happiness in heaven (our
theological legal advisors have warned us that this procedure constitutes
mortal sin for the operators and investors of the plant, but we're all
counting rather heavily on deathbed confessions).

The potential profitability is enormous.  Imagine full-page ads running
continually in all of the national tabloids and religious magazines:  "For
only $19.95, you, too, can sponsor the salvation of 10,000 souls, just send
your check or money order to..."

Investors are needed now to cover startup costs.  Now is the time to get in
opn the ground floor of this going operation.  For prospectus, send e-mail
to:

El Cheapo (TM) Salvation, Inc.


----------------(*)                           Internet: clawr@vnet.ibm.com

---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Stand aside!  I write large messages.

--- GrayQwkMail 2.1
 * Origin: Southern Systems *HST-DS-VFC 28.8K BAUD* (813)977-7065 (1:377/9)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2




From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (384)
To:      Gary Steinweg                          23 Sep 94 21:05:10
Subject: 3/3re:Mt.Carmel                        

GS> MG>       It would be good for you to take a look at the actual 
GS> MG>  evidence rather than buying into the propaganda 
GS> MG>  demonization of Koresh that was released by the 
GS> MG>  government.

GS>  Demonization has been used VERY successfully by many 
GS>  agencies all over the world.  It's VERY successful because 
GS>  most people don't question what they read and are told.  
GS>  They don't think they have any reason to.  Just look at the 
GS>  latest Haiti invasion.  To justify it, there stood Clinton 
GS>  yapping about slaughtered baby's again.  It worked for 
GS>  desert storm (turned out to be a lie), it will always work.  
GS>  What other source of information do most people have?

                    How to Tell the Big Lie
                              by
                          Matt Giwer
                                                    copyright 1993
     We might as well learn something from the Branch Davidian episode
regarding people and the press and the government.
     The incident first came to light with the headlines of four BATF
people killed serving a search warrant.  It took some time before
people were noting the warrant was served with a hand grenade thrown
through a window.
     The government originally told us they were fired on by a .50
caliber machinegun, we now know there was none.
     The government originally told us they tried to arrange a cease
fire, we now know they refused to answer their radio and continued
firing for an hour and that the Branch Davidians were the first to
attempt to obtain a cease fire.
     The government originally predicted a quick ending after a radio
broadcast and after they announced he had agreed.  He apparently did
not agree or did not trust them or whatever, we may never know.
     About a week passed before it became a topic of interest to the
media rather interestingly also in that when the media became bored
and were giving it minimum coverage there was the final assault.
     The media responded with a bare minimum of facts and a lot of
imagery to fill in the air time.  In a search for material the term
cult was used to suggest sinister things and make references to the
Jamestown mass suicide.
     Example.  Prime Time Live on 18 March 93 ran the same BATF
footage at least three times while talking about subjects that only
matched up in the words and not the actions.  They ran interviews with
ex-members who frankly had very little damaging to say.
     The government was actually the organization feeding this
hysterical misrepresentation of events.
     Example.  The gov sent in their hostage team for the only reason
I can see as the nearest equivalent they had.  The government then
referred to people as "being released" rather than "deciding to leave."
Since then I have read here allegations the children were begin held
hostage and that husbands were holding their wives hostage at gun
point.  Where did this come from?
     People took the lead and began talking on their own.
     Example.  Noting there has been no public statement by Koresh
since the Wendsday after the start, people here are talking about
Koresh based upon the cult leader image not based upon Koresh.  The
idea of cult conjured was of something evil and sinister ignoring the
literally hundreds of "cults" and "cult leaders" that have been named
since Jim Jones.   We are heard people making claims as to his
motivations and those of his followers.  We are heard regular insights
into the mind of Koresh.  Statements are being made where no
supporting information exists.
     There are many others.
     Example.  We read implicitely and explicitly that the BDs were
armed with the intention of insurrection and over throw of the
government when when no evidence of that ever had any such intention.
This made them the object of hate for those who fear revolution.
     Example.  We read the constant implication that the mere
possession of guns was a crime.  The government from Clinton on down
has refused to identify which laws they were suspected of violating.
     Example.  We heard the constant use of the term "assault weapon"
which, under any definition used in common parlance in this country
are completely legal under Federal Law and under the laws of most
states including Texas.  This made them an object of hate for those
who fear guns.
     Example.  We heard the ridiculously high figure of the Waco
operation costing one million dollars a day (which works to about one
thousand men per shift.  Thus providing a crutch for those who put a
price tag on human life.
     Example.  We heard they were manufacturing methamphetamines
without the slightest evidence of it, connecting them with all the
evils of drugs.  This made them an object of hate for those who fear
drugs.
     Example.  We heard "concerns" over child abuse of which there was
absolutely no evidence but that tear- and knee- jerking allegation has
been made over and over from the President on down without the
slighest reason to believe it.  This made them the object of hate for
those who fear child abuse.
     Example.  We heard the Branch Davidians blamed for conditions
(lack of food, sanitation) that were caused by the government.  This
made them the object of hate for those who fear child neglect.
     Example.  We heard the constant allegation of illegal weapons
without the slightest evidence of any illegal weapons existing and
have been treated to a display of burned, legal weapons by the
government.  Again inspiring fear among those who fear guns.
     Example.  We heard them blamed for responding to a deadly
government attack with deadly force.
     Example.  We heard they shot people wanting to leave when there
are no signs of anyone having been shot to prevent leaving.
     Example.  They had enough rations to hold out for years; the
children were starving.
     Example and perhaps the most onerous one.  The Government accused
them of using the children as shields and then excused its final
attack with a concern for the condition under which the children were
living.  The government was in fact using the concerns of the parents
for their children having to live under the conditions the government
imposed.  Cold, callous, cruel use of children and their parents'
concern for them.
     Here we have seven weeks, 51 days, of allegation and innuendo
none of which has substantiation and we have the majority of the
country agreeing with the government.
     We had constant new rumors all of which were instigated by the
government.
     Now watching carefully we have the anatomy of the Big Lie and it
is not what we sort of imagine it to be.  It is not the repetition of
the same lie over and over in some clumsy manner.  It is varying
statements and images around many existing themes.
     It is not one huge lie but rather constant insinuation and half
statements letting people's imagination fill in the missing parts.
     It is not creating new lies but rather connecting the target with
what is already considered evil.
     Confusion was first sown with conflicting statements, conflicting
only over which type of bad it was they were guilty of.  Then the
imagery of terrorism, messiah, allusions to what others have done
started.  (It is interesting to hear the government reassure everyone
over and over this was not a Jim Jones situation with no evidence
anyone had ever asked the question.)
     What has happened is the imagination pump has been primed.  In
absence of coherent information people are filling in the blanks with
what they believe to be parallel matters and attributing them to this
incident.  There is nothing new about people filling in the blanks
when information is missing.  It is the classic psych eval of "tell me
about the situation in this picture."
     If you ever need to start a big lie don't ever get the idea you
need a mustache and ten thousand cheering listeners to do it.  The
Koresh incident is a great blue print.
     Is it any wonder the Jews were easy picking for the Nazis?

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (385)
To:      Linda Terrell                          23 Sep 94 21:10:10
Subject: another Vietnam?                       

LT> MG> LW>  The focus here though, is on Giwer's repugnant repeteated
LT> MG> LW>  negativity, especially towards President Clinton, and his
LT> MG> LW>  continued retreat to straw man arguments.
LT> MG>
LT> MG>      1)   There is nothing to be positive about.

LT>    Oh yes there is.  Clinton pisses off the Right.

     Because the right does not like fascists.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (386)
To:      Linda Terrell                          23 Sep 94 21:17:10
Subject: CATS AND LEARNED BEHA                  

LT> MG>       But they do take sympathy upon us because we never eat 
LT> MG>  real food.

LT>     Or play with roaches.  Or chase our tails.  Makes you 
LT>  wonder why cats hang around us at all.

     They continue to try to teach us to lick our genitals.  They 
are very disturbed that we can not do it for ourselves.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  "Bill and Al's Bogus Adventure."  DEMs '92
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (388)
To:      All                                    24 Sep 94 07:07:10
Subject: Fuel for the abortion fev              

   Original From: JOSEPH CARNAGE
  STOLEN              To: ALL
   STUFF     Date/Number: 09/16/94 - 0019377
              On: TABB - 0003 - BAYCHAT
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

XC: BAYCHAT

From: wolffie@u.washington.edu
Newsgroups: alt.atheism.satire
Subject: business opportunity, investors wanted

We all know that the life of the soul begins at conception and that the
souls of innocent murdered unborn babies go straight to heaven without
having to risk eternal damnation like the unlucky born ones must.  Sort of
makes you wonder why abortion isn't a sacrament, doesn't it?  Because the
saving of souls seems to be a priority among Christian believers, there
ought to be an opportunity for profit in this.

Here at El Cheapo (TM) Salvation, Inc., we have plans to convert an
abandonned fish hatchery into a $25 million in-vitro fertilization facility
capable of producing upwards of 50 billion human zygotes a day.  These will
be promptly dumped, or used to water the plant landscaping, thereby sending
50 billion human souls per day into eternal happiness in heaven (our
theological legal advisors have warned us that this procedure constitutes
mortal sin for the operators and investors of the plant, but we're all
counting rather heavily on deathbed confessions).

The potential profitability is enormous.  Imagine full-page ads running
continually in all of the national tabloids and religious magazines:  "For
only $19.95, you, too, can sponsor the salvation of 10,000 souls, just send
your check or money order to..."

Investors are needed now to cover startup costs.  Now is the time to get in
opn the ground floor of this going operation.  For prospectus, send e-mail
to:

El Cheapo (TM) Salvation, Inc.


----------------(*)                           Internet: clawr@vnet.ibm.com

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (399)
To:      Jj Judkins                             24 Sep 94 11:00:10
Subject: cadet Shannon                          

JJ>  Matt, I'd never thought of it in exactly that way but you 
JJ>  do have a point there.  Maybe it should become SOP that ALL 
JJ>  women entering the service be given one of those birth 
JJ>  control implants.  If they get pregnant while on active 
JJ>  duty they should at the least be fined.

     Any deliberate action whereby a soldier makes HIMself unfit 
for duty is already punishable.  It does not apply to HERself and 
pregnancy.  I have heard of cases of punishment for getting 
sunburned.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (400)
To:      Brian Johnson                          24 Sep 94 11:02:10
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

BJ>  By now, everyone knows that the announced threat of 
BJ>  invasion by U.S.  troops was aborted.  However, I am unable 
BJ>  to stomach the vivid portrayal of wanton beatings by 
BJ>  Haitian police and then, watch our troops looking at the 
BJ>  whole damn mess and saying (as one soldier said) "SO WHAT?"  

     The soldiers I saw on camera were pissed off that they were 
not permitted to stop it by direct orders.  While you are asking 
Billie Jeff about those 15 rounds of ammunition you might also 
ask him about his orders.

BJ>  Now, it is known that these police are under the command of 
BJ>  the third most powerful man in Haiti and a member of the 
BJ>  triumverate which includes General Cedras.  How come this 
BJ>  Francois character was not among the thrree leaders present 
BJ>  during the long meetings with Carter, Nunn and Powell?  

     Perhaps he was not impressed by Carter?

BJ>  These brutal police forces are under the police chief's 
BJ>  direct command.  But, it is said that he is in hiding and 
BJ>  nowhere to be seen.  This looks to me that he could throw 
BJ>  some dangerous surprises for our troops already in the 
BJ>  field.  The situation in Haiti is still extremely shaky.  
BJ>  Cedras may have signed official documents but, like Saddam 
BJ>  Hussein, could change his mind and launch an attack on our 
BJ>  forces who are supposedly on a peace keeping mission.  

     What peace keeping mission?  Have you actually read or heard 
from any official source just what the mission really is?  I have 
missed hearing that some how.  The best I heard was to get Cedras 
out of power.  That is scheduled for next month.  So what are our 
troops doing there?

Mr.  
BJ>  Clinton has made a very bad mistake this time.  We are 
BJ>  uncertain what is really going to happen in Haiti within 
BJ>  the next day or days yet to come.  History records past 
BJ>  agreements which turned sour.

     The history of this president and the military is that they 
die under his command because he will not support them with the 
equipment they need.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (401)
To:      Bert Byfield                           24 Sep 94 11:10:10
Subject: Newsletter Interest                    

BB>  MG>      So I am asking, is anyone interested?  Please speak up if

BB>  I would pay the $18 out of curiousity at least.  You 
BB>  certainly are a talented writer.  But realize that you are 
BB>  competing with The American Spectator, Liberty, Reason, 
BB>  etc, all of which are rather good, and I am always looking 
BB>  to cut back on my periodical list.  I recently tossed a 
BB>  special offer from Christian Science Montitor for example.  
BB>  Still, I would expect a publication of yours to be a 
BB>  competitor in this class.  Go for it.

     Quite a flattering comparison, thank you.

BB>     I would suggest that you include a few other writers and 
BB>  not try to do 100% by yourself.  Also, when other writers 
BB>  are not available, consider writing somehthing under a pen 
BB>  name, to APPEAR to have more writers than you do.

     Good point, even Limbaugh has to.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (402)
To:      Jeff Maginniss                         24 Sep 94 11:12:10
Subject: Stupid Feds                            

JM> hey, i heard that the EPA has over 2million branches!

     I am missing the joke.  If you mean that literally it is not 
true.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (403)
To:      Lee Grimsley                           24 Sep 94 11:13:10
Subject: Wacko in Waco                          

LG>  MG>  The first and last media type who asked a hard question at 
LG>  MG>  a press briefing during the standoff was immediately 
LG>  MG>  arrested.

LG>           I just saw (on local cable) a 2-hour documentary 
LG>           produced by a TV station in Ponca City, OK, that 
LG>           was EXCELLENT.

     I couldn't find it locally.  

LG>           Several things they documented that were new, at 
LG>           least to me, included:
LG> 
LG>           1.  The armed guard, instructed to shoot to kill, 
LG>           who was stationed at the front door of the 
LG>           compound, according to the FBI, had been declared 
LG>           legally blind by the state of Michigan.

     That is not reasonable without further explanation.  He 
should rather be on disability retirement if true.

LG>           2.  The feds say Koresh set fire to the compound.  
LG>           But at 4:50 a.m.  the day of the carnage (about 7 
LG>           1/2 hours before the fire started) the FBI called 
LG>           Parkland Hospital's (Dallas) burn unit and said 
LG>           they expected a large number of burn victims and 
LG>           how much space did they have available.  After 
LG>           finding out the FBI also contacted other Dallas 
LG>           area hospitals' burn units to put them on alert.

     That they called more than one hospital is new.

LG>           3.  The FBI lied to the head of the Texas Child 
LG>           Welfare unit in Waco.  They had promised to notify 
LG>           her prior to any final raid so she could be on 
LG>           hand to receive the children who came out of the 
LG>           compound.  Right after the fire started Gov 
LG>           Richards angrily called her at home to question 
LG>           why she wasn't at the compound.  She called the FBI 
LG>           command post and the agent in charge said they 
LG>           didn't need her because there wasn't going to be 
LG>           any survivors.

     This is also new.

LG>           4.  The BATF lied to Gov Richards by telling her 
LG>           that they had proof Koresh was dealing drugs at Mt 
LG>           Carmel so they could use Texas National Guard 
LG>           helicopters during the first raid on the compound.

     I had heard this was true for the tanks later but not in the 
first attack.  It is surprising that if the tank story got out 
that the helicopter story did not.

LG>           I taped this last night and have just watched it 
LG>           once.  But I am now more firmly convinced than ever 
LG>           that Janet Reno should be investigated on charges 
LG>           of capital murder.

     Do you want to put a price on a copy?  

---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (404)
To:      Jj Judkins                             24 Sep 94 11:18:10
Subject: Welfare and the Cold              

JJ>  MG>  It certainly pays better than cleaning toilets and mopping 
JJ>  MG>  floors also but there is a difference between the two types 
JJ>  MG>  of activities.

JJ>  Yeah, about sixty to a hundred grand a year..

     Actually the street dealers rarely make that kind of money.  
They are more into it for flashing money.  This came up in DC 
when someone took the hourly earnings and multiplied by 2000 
hours (40 a week * 50 weeks.)  Then a sociologists followed it 
and found they worked more like three or four hours a night.

JJ>  Really, though if you had a house full of hungry kids I 
JJ>  doubt you would be worrying about something so trivial as 
JJ>  what is right or wrong.

     More seriously the dealers may be young fathers but they are 
not married and are certainly unconcerned about feeding them.  
That is what food stamps are for if they even think about it.

JJ>  MG>  May I suggest you visit Washington DC and take a look at 
JJ>  MG>  something other than the monuments?  In the daytime of 
JJ>  MG>  course.

JJ> Armed or unarmed? ..

     It is safe in daylight in the worst parts of town. It is 
mainly dealers shooting each other.

JJ>  MG>  Then why do they?  In most cases once they get through the 
JJ>  MG>  hassle of getting in to the system case reviews are few and 
JJ>  MG>  far between, i.e.  no more hassles.

JJ> Not in Oklahoma.  Was told it was every 4 months.

     Someone may drop by but requalify?  Ask that question.

JJ>  MG>  They feel great about it.  They wait for it to be parked 
JJ>  MG>  and strip it.

JJ>  Ouch, walked into that one didn't I? I meant the Adults, 
JJ>   not the kids...

     You think I wasn't?

JJ>  Changing the subject, did you hear about the mental midgets 
JJ>  that are now saying that we didn't need to nuke Japan, that 
JJ>  they were ready to surrender and the president knew 
JJ>  it...Was on the news..

     That is a very old story.  It is based upon their message 
after the first bomb.  The detractors hold we should have known 
it was an ambiguous word in translation.  I suggest that is why 
they chose to use that word.  There was no reason not to come 
down on them hard at that point.  The invasion would have been 
way to expensive in lifes to take even the slighest risk.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (406)
To:      Lenny Flank                            24 Sep 94 11:28:10
Subject: wild cats don't purr?                  

LF>  Wild cats, such as tigers, leopards, and bobcats, may or 
LF>  may not purr, depending on species.  Bobcats do, tigers and 
LF>  lions don't.  Most kittens, when they want milk, use their 
LF>  claws to massage the mother's stomach, thus stimulating 
LF>  milk production.  (Domestic cats do this sometimes to their 
LF>  owners, hopping onto the owner's lap and kneading them with 
LF>  their claws--and usually getting swatted for it.  Most 
LF>  owners don't understand the significance of this action, 
LF>  and don't know that the cat is trying to demonstrate 
LF>  affection.  The poor cat probably doesn't know why it gets 
LF>  whacked for doing this.)

     They should be better studies of human nature.


---
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+++ r_940928 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (129)
To:      Ann Ross                               25 Sep 94 10:56:10
Subject: BIG BANG                               

AR>  MG>  The folks at U of Cincinnati who awarded me the BS in 
AR>  MG>  Physics thought otherwise.  The folks who signed my 
AR>  MG>  paycheck for 25 years in R&D also thought otherwise.  I 
AR>  MG>  would suggest you complete your degree program and then 
AR>  MG>  come back and talk about it.

AR>          Un-huh and are they still?  Is being booted out the 
AR>          reason you were driving a taxi?  Writing for the 
AR>          right wing is nickle and dime stuff....soooo why 
AR>          are you?  Michael is a better writer and brilliant 
AR>          traitor than you will ever be.  Now sort THAT one, 
AR>          heheheh.

     Now if you had paid attention you would know those have 
nothing to do with the reason.  The primary reason is the bloom 
went off of the Artificial Intelligence rose and my investors 
walked.  I was only pulling $77,500 at the time it happened.  
     
     But then why should I confuse you with such issues?  

     Besides I think it is rather an accomplishment that I was 
able to retire before 50 and only need to work for luxuries.  It 
gives me time to do what I want.  Maybe you can do that some day, 
or is it already too late?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (130)
To:      Dick Roebelt                           25 Sep 94 11:01:10
Subject: Declaration of Independe               

DR> MG>             For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

DR> MG>     and yet we do not tax anyone who does not live within the 50
DR> MG>states as they do not have elected representation.

DR>     Matt, who told you that???

DR>     You of all people should know better.

     Puerto Ricans and natives of US possessions do not pay any 
direct taxes and get a full range of welfare benefits.  If you 
stay out of the 50 states for a year you do not pay direct taxes.  
Can you come up with a contrary example?  The exception to this 
was DC under the presumption of the Congressional DC was 
sufficient for representation.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (131)
To:      John Todd                              25 Sep 94 11:06:10
Subject: Heart Disease                          

JT>   As to your comments on the so called cholesterol lowering
JT> prescription drugs, I would like to add that even when
JT> combined with a low fat diet like you mentioned, they do not
JT> significantly reduce cholesterol, and several of these drugs
JT> occasionally produce dangerous side effects.  Like you said.
JT> "Nice drugs."  Two billion dollars  worth of "nice drugs"
JT> each year!
JT> ============================================================

     We are not particularly in disagreement here.  As to the low 
fact diet, I am repeating what Dr. Gabe Merkin would cite 
regularly from the literature.  AND he meant 15 grams of fat per 
day or less (but zero most days and a very fat one meal a week he 
found worked as well as long as that fat was less than 7 * 15 
grams.)  He also almost demanded a person consult with a board 
certified nutritionist to learn where fat is hidden in foods as 
he was certain no one could know them all.  

     So if you are not achieving the success you want get to a 
nutritionist and target the 15 gms.  Beans with herbs and spices 
are a way to get there.  Beans and rice another, authentic Pita 
bread, with effort there is enough variety for a diet that does 
not tastes like cardboard.

     As a side note, my pointing this out years ago on RIME in 
the face of Bonnie Anthony's unattributed copies of journal 
articles to the contrary contributed to my second lifetime ban.

     My opinion?  In any practical sense there is no way at 
present to seriously reduce one's serum cholesterol without 
heroic efforts.  For the little reduction that is possible, it is 
up to the individual to gamble a small increase in (statistical) 
life expectancy against enjoying the life you have.  

     I see there also being alternatives.  There being so many 
heart diseases, this being only one, that concentrating on the 
other diseases as preventative measures should increase one's 
personal life expectancy.  By this I mean physical fitness, body 
fat, smoking and the rest and forget the cholesterol risk.  

     I can take this dispassionately as my serum cholesterol is 
almost off the bottom of the scale.  I have no axe to grind on 
the subject.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (133)
To:      Bert Byfield                           25 Sep 94 11:21:10
Subject: Invading Haiti                         

BB>  MG>  are invading Haiti because our national security is 
BB>  MG>  threatened by the way Haitians are treating Haitian.  I do 
BB>  MG>  not explain 'em.  I only report 'em.  We have the word of 
BB>  MG>  The Clinton as to the gospel truth of the reason for this 
BB>  MG>  killing of Haitians and the loss of American lives.  And 
BB>  MG>  above all remember, We Come In Peace.

BB>  And yet on the first day of the occupation, our troops 
BB>  stood idly by while Haitian police beat and threatened 
BB>  Haitians in a pro-US demonstration.  The Haitian police 
BB>  killed two people.  I hope things get better.  Clinton said 
BB>  this would no longer be tolerated.  Army MPs are to patrol 
BB>  with Haitian police units at all levels...  All we need now 
BB>  is faith that Clinton won't screw this up, like he has 
BB>  screwed up in so many other arenas...

     And this morning, 9/25, I find our troops took fire from a 
police station with one wounded.  What a country!  Cops dumb 
enough to take on our troops from a fixed position.  I guess 
they were planning on the chicken curse for a victory.

     As for patrolling WITH the police, I presume they will take 
up the rear so the cops can not get at their backs.

     As for screwing it up, he is obviously NOT in control now 
and his inattention can only make things much worse.  Patience.  
With any luck, as it is inevitable, it will happen before the 
election.  


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (134)
To:      Ian Lin                                25 Sep 94 11:26:10
Subject: Wacko in Waco                          

IL>  IL> Now why isn't the media jumping up and down over THAT?

IL>  MG>  The first and last media type who asked a hard question at 
IL>  MG>  a press briefing during the standoff was immediately 
IL>  MG>  arrested.

IL>  That's a shame.  I wish there could be more done about this.  
IL>  Will no more step forward? Will they arrest us, too? 

     They will not arrest Canadians.  They will leave that to 
your fellow Canadians over free speech issues.  

It's 
IL>  disgusting.  News of it is NOT circulating around.  It's all 
IL>  a nasty cover up.

     The news is right here from our correspondents in Texas 
where these things get local coverage.  Keep reading.  It is 
rather amazing what has not made the national news.


---
  RM 1.3 01261  Play your state lottery.  Pay your fool tax.
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'
 * Origin: T.A.B.B. FROM THE SUNSHINE STATE HST 21.6 813-961-6242(1:377/6)
SEEN-BY: 250/3 99 201 224 246 301 401 501 601 701 714 724 801 259/98 99 532 533
SEEN-BY: 377/6 9 15 50 72 396/1 3603/10 20 570 20050 20060 3615/50 51 3619/25
SEEN-BY: 3654/5 3659/2





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