The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_controv_9403


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1399)
To:      All                                    28 Mar 94 05:56:10
Subject: Gov is still responsible               

                     Was the Fire Insane
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <3/28>

     In the matter of Waco and the fire at the end.  Those
apologizing for the government have put themselves in a no win
situation.  Even if the Branch Davidians started the fire it was
the government's fault.
     There are as many common definitions of unbalanced and
insane as there are people to give them.  Certainly it means at
the very least the person does something that he would not
otherwise do in a normal state of mind.  I think we can all agree
that self immolation is not something one would do in a normal
state of mind.
     If we are in agreement at this point then we agree the
Branch Davidians did not want to surrender.  That was their
normal state of mind.  However, the case against the government
is stronger if you consider that to be an abnormal state of mind.
The government subjected them to psychological warfare to change
their behavior.
     This included at least sleep deprivation so far as we know.
There are reports of much more advanced techniques.  The
intention was to change their "normal" behavior.
     We do know that sleep deprivation can and will drive people
insane.  The government presumably accomplished that objective.
They obviously failed in getting them to surrender.
     If refusing to surrender was a sane act then the government
intentionally drove them insane.  If refusing to surrender was an
insane act the government intentionally added to the problems of
insane people.  In either case given the government succeeded in
its intent then even if they started the fire the government is
at fault.
     Whether or not the government succeeded or failed in its
intentions is not provable at this time.  What we can deal with
is the intention.  The intention may have been to surrender but
as this is far from an exact science simply taking the initiative
means taking responsibility for the results.
     Not "intending" the results when the action caused it is not
an excuse before the law.  Not intending that they suicide is not
an excuse for taking actions that were intended to make them do
what they would not ordinarily do.
     We can not replay history nor second guess it.  If this were
the apprehension of a wanted criminal rather than an attack upon
a bunch of nobodies the methods would not be in question.  That
this may have been an attack upon mentally unbalanced people in
the first place with means to unbalance them further is
inexcusable.
     There has to be accountability for this some day.  And it is
not to be a set of full pay retirements.  This was felony murder
no matter how you look at it.  There is no excuse for this on our
country.  We can not permit it to happen again


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1400)
To:      Doug Schiffer                          28 Mar 94 05:48:10
Subject: Waco 2 Murder Recordo                  

DS> MR>  Who are YOU to presume that AK-47s are NOT part of God's 
DS> MR>  plan.  Perhaps true that God is on the side with superior 
DS> MR>  firepower...

DS>  That's why Jesus said that when somebody slaps you on the 
DS>  cheek, your supposed to load up your 200 round clip and 
DS>  blow the mother away.

     So far as I am aware the largest clip for an AK-47 is 75 
rounds.  Where might I find this 200 round clip.  I have an AK-47 
and I am on a mission from god.


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 * RM 1.3 01261 * 6 dead, 22 wounded, a law against guns.  Some excuse.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1401)
To:      Jim Higgins                            28 Mar 94 05:50:10
Subject: WACO 2 Murder Record                   

JH>  MR>  That's the first I've seen of that claim.  It doesn't ring 
JH>  MR>  true-- CO goes through gas masks just fine, and kills very 
JH>  MR>  effectively.  If they'd been using it, the BDs would have 
JH>  MR>  been dead much earlier.

JH>  You are correct.  It doesn't make much sense and I should 
JH>  have expressed the severe doubt I felt.  I am hoping Matt 
JH>  will expand on it, meanwhile I respond to the "facts" 
JH>  presented without necessarily believing them.  BTW, CO 
JH>  isn't inherently a better propellent than compressed air 
JH>  and it is a lot harder to obtain.  The mind boggles to 
JH>  think someone would go to the trouble to use it.  It CAN be 
JH>  eliminated by the appropriate gas mask though.

     Is that what you are after?  The second Waco: Big Lie tape 
has an FBI type saying that is what was used.  A tape right off 
of the air as broadcast.  It does appear to be a bit of a guess 
but as the original statement was that it was propelled by 
extremely flammable acetone as a solvent I would suggest this is 
a poor cover of the first information.  

     Now what can we trust?  NOTHING the government has put into 
publication.  The formal report was discredited by the government 
during the trial as being only "for public consumption."

     One has to wonder which public they were referring to when 
the objected to it being used as evidence.


---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1402)
To:      All                                    28 Mar 94 15:26:10
Subject: News you may have miss 01              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

from the Washington Times

24 March 1994

Lies by panel, possible conflicts by Hillary emerge in 
health suit

     The White House misrepresented the makeup of its secret 
health care task force and the influence of special interest 
groups wielded, and it backdated travel vouchers to conform to a 
federal court order, now court documents filed yesterday show.

     In addition, first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton, the task 
force chairwoman, may have violated conflict of interest rules by 
including the vice president of a  health care firm the Clintons 
held stock in at the time, according to documents filed in the 
U.S. District Court here by groups suing the task force.

Clinton demotes associate counsel

     White House Associate Counsel William H. Kennedy III was 
demoted last night for mishandling hundreds of White House pass 
investigations.

     Mr. Kennedy, who turns 43 on Tuesday, also had been under 
scrutiny for paying "nanny taxes" two years late.

SBA cash trail leads to second Whitewater deal

     Federal investigators have targeted a failed 810-acre real 
estate project near Little Rock -- purchases in 1986 by the 
Whitewater Development Corp. -- as the direct beneficiary of a 
portion of a $300,000 government-backed loan linked to President 
Clinton.

...

     It had not been disclosed that Whitewater -- owned by Mr. 
Clinton and Mr. McDougal and their wives -- was directly involved 
in buying and developing properties other than the 230-acre 
Whitewater site along the White River in Northern Arkansas.

     Investigators also are trying to determine if Lorance 
Heights, in woodlands 15 miles southeast of Little Rock, was used 
as a Whitewater conduit for the illegal diversion of funds to 
Arkansas politicians, federal law enforcement sources said.

     They said as much as $250,000 in profits from the cutting of 
timber at the site -- in violation of deed restrictions -- may be 
missing.  It is not clear where the money went, and records 
showing how it was used or where it was deposited have not been 
located.

Elders offers church not apology

     Surgeon General Joycelyn Elders intends to make no apology 
to churchmen offended by her "difference of opinion" on 
homosexuals, but she dissociated her views from President 
Clinton's yesterday after the archbishop of Washington complained 
about her to the White House.

Hall renews fast to help hungry

     President Clinton and 15 members of Congress ear going 
without food to draw attention to the plight of people who are 
hungry every day, Rep. Tony P. Hall said yesterday.

                    Inside the Beltway

Hold the presses

     L.J. Davis writes in the latest issue of the New Republic 
that the history of the Rose Law Firm  was from 1987 to 1992 "was 
publically dominated by three partners: the amiable Webster 
Hubble, who was until a few days ago associate attorney general; 
the quiet Vincent Foster, who was deputy White House counsel 
until his suicide las summer; and Hillary Rodham Clinton, who as 
of press time was still first lady."

Rough business

     Mr. Davis, a contributing editor to Harper's magazine who 
has a chilling portrayal of dirty dealings in Arkansas in the New 
Republic, had a frightening encounter in Little Rock on 
Valentine's Day.

     As he told the Washington Times three weeks ago, Mr. Davis, 
53, had been churning up the waters in Arkansas pursuing leads 
pertaining to connections between the Clintons and questionable 
bond transactions by the powerful Stephens Inc., owned by heavy 
Clinton financial backer Jackson Stephens.

     That proved unhealthy.  Mr. Davis spent more than four hours 
on the floor of his hotel room after apparently being knocked 
unconscious by someone rifling his notebooks.

...

     "I was in a semi-paralyzed state, but I remember looking at 
my watch and it was 10:30 pm," Mr. Davis said.  He later recalled 
that pages had been partially torn in his notebook and a critical 
document was missing, enhancing his sense that he was not the 
victim of a common mugging.

25 March 1994

Madison Prober Urged To Back Off

     A senior Resolution Trust Corporation investigator says she 
sought whistleblower protection after being pressured by her 
Washington superiors to change her conclusion that the Whitewater- 
Madison case was a "highly prosecutable case of check kiting" 
involving President and Mrs. Clinton.

Post sex story about Clinton gets the spike

     A reporter for the Washington Post has been suspended for 
two weeks for insubordination after a heated confrontation with 
editors over the newspapers's handling of a story about sexual 
harassment accusations against President Clinton.

Philip Morris fires off suit over ABC claim of added nicotine

     Tobacco industry giant Philip Morris yesterday filed a $10 
billion libel suit against ABC-TV and two of its journalists for 
broadcasts charging that cigarettes are spiked with nicotine to 
hook smokers.

Clinton TV pal Thomason sued for libel in 'Travelgate'

     TV producer and presidential pal Harry Thomason is facing an 
$80.3 million libel suit for supposedly spreading false charges 
of wrongdoing against a former White House press charter operator 
snared in the "Travelgate" scandal.

Probe sought of leak of Foster death photos

     Rep. William F. Clinger, Pennsylvania Republican, asked 
Attorney General Janet Reno to probe the leak of photographs of 
**
Continued in the next message...
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1403)
To:      All                                    28 Mar 94 15:26:10
Subject: News you may have miss 02              

Continued from the previous message...
**
Vincent W. Foster Jr.'s body, questioning whether the White House 
used the leak to mute press reports.

Postal Service halts audits of rivals' customers

     Postal inspectors will no longer audit businesses to check 
up on their use of rival Federal Express, United Parcel Service 
and other express mailers, Postmaster General Marvin Runyon 
announced yesterday.

Death in Little Rock

     Driving home from a Mexican restaurant in Little Rock las 
September 26, Luther "Jerry" Parks, whose company provided 
security for Bill Clinton's presidential campaign and transition 
headquarters, was ambushed and killed by at least three bullets 
fired at close range from a semi-automatic pistol.

     Now the dead man's son, Gary Parks, a former Navy submarine 
navigator, charges his father, who ran American Contract 
Services, Inc., was killed "to save Bill Clinton's political 
career."

     Interviewed in last Sunday's London Telegraph, the younger 
Parks said "my dad was working on Clinton's infidelities for 
about six years, starting in the campaign around 1983," and had 
compiled two name-and-photo-filled files on Mr. Clinton that he 
kept hidden in his bedroom.

     Shortly before he was killed, Mr. Parks' Little Rock home 
was broken into.  Not only were the phone lines severed, but Jane 
Parks, Mr. Parks; widow, says the pair of Clinton files turned up 
missing and "must have been stolen."



---
 * RM 1.3 01261 * Gun Control:  Hope over experience.
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1488)
To:      All                                    28 Mar 94 22:26:10
Subject: DOJ CRAWFISHES!                        

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: GUNTALK
 ***********              Conf: 0001 - MAIN
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: KEN DAWE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 03/23/94 - 0008147
 **********             On: GUNTALK - 0001 - MAIN
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You may have seen this already; probably someone has already uploaded
it, for that matter.
For anyone who came in late, Sherriff Richard Mack of Graham County, AZ,
has brought suit against the Federal Gov't opposing the Brady Bill.
Sherriff Mack is the "Cheif Law Enforcement Official" in Graham County,
and therefore, under the provisions of Brady, his 12-man Sherriff's
Dept. is responsible for background checks in that county. He contends
that
        a) The Federal Gov't does not have the right or authority to
require him to perform such checks, and
        b) he does not have the manpower to do that and do his other
        duties in the county.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(From the Colorado Springs Gazette-Telegraph, 23 March, 1994)

                Government allows choice on gun check
                Justice Department answers challenge
AP, Phoenix, AZ
        The Justice Department is defending the 3-week-old Brady Bill
from a county sherriff's challenge by arguing law officers need not always
carry out background checks the new federal law requires for handgun buyers.
        Graham County Sheriff Richard Mack may decide other duties are
more pressing than making the checks, the U.S. Justice Department said
in a legal brief filed Monday.
        Mack, who opposes the law, said from Safford in southeastern
Arizona: "I could stand on a street corner and wait for a kid to come by
and talk to him about the dangers of drug abuse, and it would be more
useful."
        Carl Stern, a Justice Department spokesman in Washington,
charecterized the filing as a "hypothetical legal argument" rather than
a guide to enforcing officials. He said local officials are expected to
make reasonable efforts to carry out the background checks.
        "To not do anything at all because you're opposed to what
Congress has done would not be reasonable," Stern said Tuesday.
        Mack is challeneging the gun law as a private citizen with his
own lawyer and help from the National Rifle Association. He argues that
it will swamp his department with paperwork and open him to lawsuits by
gun victims in his rural county of 28,000 people.
        The government brief, filed in U.S. District Court in Tucson,
says the chief law enforcement officer in the juridsdiction where the
gun is being sold must make a "reasonable" effort to conduct a
background check. But it notes that Mack could "at any given time"
decide his 12-member department is too busy to conduct the check.
        "In other words, a 'reasonable' effort may be no effort at all,"
the government wrote.
        The Justice Department brief was the government's first response
to several lawsuits around the country, challenging the law, which
requires a five-day wait before a handgun is sold while local law
agencies check the buyer's background.
        Mack argued the law is unconstitutionally vague and infringes
upon the states' rights by telling local law officers what to do. The
government contends the law applies mainly to gun dealers, not to local
authorities.
        The law enacted Feb. 28 was named for former White House press
secretary James Brady, who was shot during a 1981 assassination attempt
on then-President Ronald Reagan.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Keyed in by hand, by me; any miss-spellings are probably my fault.
Note that the Associated Press is perpetuating the "Mandatory Five-Day
Wait" myth: The law says a *maximum* of five days. If your state has an
instant background check, you can get your pistol *now*.



... What was that ripping sound? Oh, just the Constitution...
___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12
 * MMGR v3.00 * The NRA/ILA BBS (703)719-6406                                  
                                                        
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1496)
To:      All                                    29 Mar 94 02:00:10
Subject: Data on the Waco fire                  

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Who started the fire at Waco?

     A prosecution witness under oath testified that he was a 
tank driver and that he saw a Branch Davidian start the fire.

     The government in press conferences and in publications says 
the tanks were no where near the compound when the fire started.

     Noting press conferences and publications are not under 
oath, who do you think is lying and why?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1497)
To:      All                                    29 Mar 94 01:00:10
Subject: GUNS                                   

 *********** Original       To: ROBERT GIBSON
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

RG>  With the idea that the gun is what is causing the violence, 
RG>  how about that ---in Gainsville.  He didn't use a gun.  Are 
RG>  we then going to ban all knives??? The problem is people 
RG>  are killing people and they will do that with any kind of 
RG>  weapon they can get their hands on.  We should not be so 
RG>  concerned about a person being killed every 30 min by a 
RG>  gun, but more concerned that a person is being killed every 
RG>  30 minutes.  Lets get rid of the Murderers.

     Getting rid of murderers is inhuman.  

     I would rather see the "availability of guns made me do it" 
defense tried once.  Certainly if it is a good enough excuse for 
more gun laws then it is an excuse for crime.  It can not be both 
ways.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (1498)
To:      Rich Owens                             28 Mar 94 23:58:10
Subject: Moralists Strike Tobac 01              

RO>  Attitudes are different today than they were in the 20's.  
RO>   There are studies, (reports, rumors, heresay, or whatever 
RO>   you prefer to call them), indicating the dangers of 
RO>   smoking and of 2nd hand smoke.  

     The hyper moralist attitude toward tobacco and distilled 
spirits started around 1400 and has barely changed.  If you truly 
believe "scientists" are immune from biases you do not know any.

A report on this mornings 
RO>   David Brinkley indicated that nicotine was found in the 
RO>   systems of fetuses where the mother doesn't smoke.  This is 
RO>   the result of 2nd hand smoke.  Also, the cigarette industry 
RO>   is under fire for alledgedly spiking cigarettes with more 
RO>   than normal nicotine to make them more addictive.  It 
RO>   hasn't been proven yet however.  

     The spiking has been denied and is now the subject of a $10 
billion law suit.  

The public tends to 
RO>   believe this stuff whether it's true or not.  I feel that a 
RO>   ban will be in the near future.  Will it work? Who knows?

     If they are banned I will be in the smuggling business.  
There is no reason for anyone not to get into the business.  
Besides, the police and politicians are already on the payroll 
from the present drug business.  The costs will not increase.


---
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