From forman@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul  8 23:47:22 PDT 1995
Article: 23308 of alt.revisionism
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From: forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank Forman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. Vicksell, please address the "non-conspiracy"
Date: 5 Jul 1995 22:33:30 GMT
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References: <1995Jul5.203023.25087@hobbes.kzoo.edu> <1995Jul5.204150.26406@hobbes.kzoo.edu>
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In <1995Jul5.204150.26406@hobbes.kzoo.edu> k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu
(Jamie R. McCarthy) writes: 
>
>On June 1st, 1995, the Holocaust-denier Ross Vicksell posted to
>alt.revisionism:
>
>   Due to some personal problems I'm having, I won't be participating
>   in the alt.revisionism discussion over the next month or so.
>
>Now that a month has passed, I would like to ask Mr. Vicksell to
address
>the issues he left unanswered.  This is one such issue:  do
>"revisionists" say that the commonly accepted history of the Holocaust
>arose because of a conspiracy, or by some other means?

That's the context of this post. Now snip to me, since you need to be
corrected on one matter: I am NOT a Holocaust-denier. A few months
before I got an Internet connection in January, a local friend aruged
for the reality of the Holocaust (and without a lot of name calling)
and convinced me. You and Ken would have done the same, and I thank
you for getting at the bottom of this one particular controversy.
You should go reread what I posted on May 4 (I'll e-mail it to you,
if it would be easier.) And while you are at it, why not deal with
the claim I made that the Holocaust was a conspiracy?

>(2) On May 4th, Holocaust-denier Frank Forman wrote an article, ID
>3obma9$ikd@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com, entitled "Invisible Hand vs. Hidden
>Hand."
>
>   It occurred to me only while writing this that the Holocaust itself
>   was one of the grandest conspiracies in all of human history. It
>   was carried out in secret, the participants used code words even
>   while speaking to themselves, they tried to cover their tracks,
>   they kept no records, they tried to destroy all evidence of their
>   deeds after they knew their country was going to be defeated. The
>   machinery used to perpetrate the Holocaust sounds as delightfully
>   nightmarish as the black helicopters of the United Nations being
>   spotted in the midwest today. Eyewitness testimonies of both the
>   gassings and the helicopters are contradictory.
>
>"One of the grandest conspiracies in all of human history."  Thank you
>for confirming what I was saying, Mr. Forman.

Just what were you saying? And feel free to call me by my "Christian"
name.

Frank





From forman@ix.netcom.com Mon Jul 10 10:12:00 PDT 1995
Article: 23415 of alt.revisionism
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From: forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank Forman)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Subject: Judeo-Christianity
Date: 6 Jul 1995 22:11:34 GMT
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References: <3s2rqj$3csa@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  <3tbi58$rk3@acmex.gatech.edu> <1995Jul5.190744.17815@news.wrc.xerox.com>  <3tgqm6$5ih@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: news.port.island.net talk.politics.misc:208848 soc.culture.jewish:105850 misc.legal:74929 alt.revisionism:23415 alt.conspiracy:70416

Aaron Gross has been claiming on the Pat Buchanan thread
that Judaism and Christianity are very different. So I'm
starting a new thread (and cutting out some irrelevant
newsgroups).

I am a devout atheist myself. I perform the Rite of
Insubstantiation daily, wherein I attempt to conjure
up a god and inevitably fail. But religion and culture
are fascinating subjects and perhaps we can get some
intelligent discussion going on these matters.

My own view is that Christianity started out Jewish
but became Western, at least in the West. How close
Eastern Orthodox Christianity resembles Judaism, I
don't know. But Jews living in the West have become
Westernized also, at least in part. So maybe
Western Christianity and Western Judaism have by
now become rather close. And so indeed might be my
own *Western* atheism. I spend no time at all trying
to refute Buddhism.

Frank



From bzs@world.std.com Mon Jul 10 16:18:27 PDT 1995
Article: 23427 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,soc.culture.jewish,misc.legal,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!library.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!simtel!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!world!bzs
From: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Subject: Re: Judeo-Christianity
In-Reply-To: forman@ix.netcom.com's message of 6 Jul 1995 22:11:34 GMT
Message-ID: 
Sender: bzs@world.std.com (Barry Shein)
Organization: The World
References: <3s2rqj$3csa@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> 
	<3tbi58$rk3@acmex.gatech.edu>
	<1995Jul5.190744.17815@news.wrc.xerox.com>
	 <3tgqm6$5ih@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
	<3thn2m$fjc@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 07:03:36 GMT
Lines: 65
Xref: news.port.island.net talk.politics.misc:208980 soc.culture.jewish:105955 misc.legal:74957 alt.revisionism:23427 alt.conspiracy:70441


From: forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank Forman)
>My own view is that Christianity started out Jewish
>but became Western, at least in the West. How close
>Eastern Orthodox Christianity resembles Judaism, I
>don't know. But Jews living in the West have become
>Westernized also, at least in part. So maybe
>Western Christianity and Western Judaism have by
>now become rather close. And so indeed might be my
>own *Western* atheism. I spend no time at all trying
>to refute Buddhism.

If you want my own frank views, and I believe some here will find them
a bit shocking, here they are:

Rationalism won. Basically, the core of Protestantism has embodied
rationalism in the West and elsewhere, age of Enlightenment and all
that. For all practical purposes it has melded into one religion, we
may as well all declare ourselves Protestants or something similar and
admit that the differences are really superficial (and the parts we
believe in least.) Protestant Catholics, Protestant Jews, etc. Perhaps
"Protestantism" is the wrong word, but what Protestants have mostly
become having also mostly abandoned the non-Rational portions of their
own religion. But they should get some credit for making the big break
with the big shibboleths, transubstantiation, embracing the heresy
that one can be saved outside the Church, etc. Basically Wycliffe laid
it all out in the 1300's, and around 200 years later it began to
appeal to people.

I don't believe much of the religion we are generally exposed to has
much resemblance to its roots. I also don't much believe it matters
what religion you are except to those who have some personal need to
make an issue of it. They're all pretty much the same, worshippers of
rationalism with some nostalgic underpinnings for their origins. The
differences between the major religions at this point in time is more
like the difference between an American, a Frenchman and, oh, a
Dutchman. Sure, you can't miss the differences, they speak different
languages, have some different customs, but there's not much more to
it than that, just superficialities, accidents of birth and
circumstance.

There are of course exceptions, extremes of fundamentalism.

The fact that so many of us of different religious backgrounds can
feel so similarly uncomfortable with such movements, and in much the
same way, bears out my point. Rationalists are uncomfortable with true
irrationalists, within our own religion or not.

I'll go a step further; we've all become, basically, nature
worshippers. We're too close to it to see it, but that's what our
faith in science, engineering, medicine, etc is. We just think it's
different because it happens to be voodoo that works. That we scoff at
the suggestion proves the point, it's not *religion* we protest, how
can it be religion if it *works?! Yeah, there you go.

Rationalism. Everything else is just window-dressing and some
nostalgic tribalism. It's time we admitted it and stopped clinging in
maudlin and nostalgic ways to ancient religions we don't really much
believe in any longer.

-- 
        -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die    | bzs@world.std.com          | uunet!world!bzs
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 617-739-0202        | Login: 617-739-WRLD


From forman@ix.netcom.com Sat Jul 29 23:00:03 PDT 1995
Article: 24649 of alt.revisionism
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank Forman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel
Subject: My Ruined Computer! (& some questions)
Date: 27 Jul 1995 22:29:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 131
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3v940b$el3@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-dc13-09.ix.netcom.com
Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:24649 alt.politics.nationalism.white:7060 soc.culture.jewish:108398 soc.culture.israel:16555

     On July 8 a power surge
totalled my computer. Only the
CD-ROM reader, the sound card, and
the 3 1/2" disc drive were
recoverable. I lost 4 1/2 years of
stuff on my hard drive.
Fortunately, I had managed to
preserve the most important of my
discographies (classical musicians)
and a few postings I had composed
off-line, and I can get a scanner
to read back into the computer what
I managed to print out. But much of
my so-called wisdom is gone
forever. But it's amazing how well
I will be able to live without all
this stuff on my hard drive. Maybe
not so amazing, for one's mind
(such that it is) is the important
thing, not the archived or printed
stuff. There have been a few
science fiction novels about a
world where most of the past had
vanished, though, such as _A
Canticle for Leibowitz_.

I have gotten a Tripp-Lite BC-400
Uninterrupted Power Source to
prevent this grave tragedy from
happening again. It costs $179 and
you all might consider same. This
my insurance won't cover, but it
will cover all but the $250
deductible for replacing the
computer. I've heard lots of
stories about power surges, and
it's not just the 1/10,000 chance I
had thought. I was able to read
various newsgroups at work,
courtesy of a gopher gateway to
Michigan State University, which
keeps all newsgroups backlogged
either a whole week or the week to
date (I think). The URL is
gopher://gopher.msu.edu:3441. It's
slow, so use it only as a last
resort. If you drop the :3441, you
can find out how to *post* to
UseNet groups by e-mail. I missed
several days before I discovered
this gopher. Anyone who responded
to any of my postings, or generally
wants an opinion, even a
well-reasoned argument, out of me,
please post it again or e-mail me
(making it clear that you don't
want just a private reply).

I had to read rather selectively at
work, and maybe this is just as
well. Time constraints do
concentrate the mind wonderfully!
Alas there were some 12,000
messages to go through, minus some
2000 that were already gone from
MSU's server and from my own
Internet provider, Netcom's server
when I got my new machine. Plus 313
e-mail messages!

So what did I miss? The usual name-
calling and counter name-calling of
no substance. I note that the two
chief lady flamers, Jeanne and
Medusa, have gotten so enthusiastic
that they have started flaming each
other. How Sisterhood can remain
powerful under such conditions is
deeply problematic. I also missed
an apology from Jamie McCarthy for
calling me a Holocaust Revisionist.
I only wish we all could more
readily admit when we are wrong.
After all, our ideas are only
hypotheses.

I post this to soc.culture.jewish
and soc.culture.israel, though I do
not regularly follow these groups,
since I may have missed a response
to a question posted to all four
groups: Thomas Sowell's review of
_The Bell Curve_ stated, "the
black-white IQ difference of about
15 points in the U.S. has been
matched by the IQ difference
between Sephardic and Ashkenazic
Jews in Israel or between Catholics
and Protestants in Northern
Ireland." I'd like to find out much
more about this, and also about the
income differences between these
two groups.

As my hard drive was ruined, I lost
several postings on the genetic
similarity of Jews around the world
that cited research that they were
all rather similar, and I should
very much like for someone to e-
mail me these postings. None of the
posters claimed nor denied, on the
basis of this research, that Jews
constitute a "race." I spent a few
hours browsing _The History and
Geography of Human Genes_, wherein
the authors repeatedly denied the
existence of human races but
nowhere describing just what it is
that they are denying. Hard-shell,
devout atheists like myself run
into similar problems: it's one
thing to deny that the
Tetragramaton walked among the
camps of the Amorites but quite
another to deny the existence of
such a fuliginous thing as the
ground of being.

P.S. Is there a newsgroup devoted to
Ireland and/or the Irish?


From forman@ix.netcom.com Sun Jul 30 09:12:16 PDT 1995
Article: 7060 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: news.port.island.net!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: forman@ix.netcom.com (Frank Forman)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel
Subject: My Ruined Computer! (& some questions)
Date: 27 Jul 1995 22:29:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 131
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <3v940b$el3@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ix-dc13-09.ix.netcom.com
Xref: news.port.island.net alt.revisionism:24649 alt.politics.nationalism.white:7060 soc.culture.jewish:108398 soc.culture.israel:16555

     On July 8 a power surge
totalled my computer. Only the
CD-ROM reader, the sound card, and
the 3 1/2" disc drive were
recoverable. I lost 4 1/2 years of
stuff on my hard drive.
Fortunately, I had managed to
preserve the most important of my
discographies (classical musicians)
and a few postings I had composed
off-line, and I can get a scanner
to read back into the computer what
I managed to print out. But much of
my so-called wisdom is gone
forever. But it's amazing how well
I will be able to live without all
this stuff on my hard drive. Maybe
not so amazing, for one's mind
(such that it is) is the important
thing, not the archived or printed
stuff. There have been a few
science fiction novels about a
world where most of the past had
vanished, though, such as _A
Canticle for Leibowitz_.

I have gotten a Tripp-Lite BC-400
Uninterrupted Power Source to
prevent this grave tragedy from
happening again. It costs $179 and
you all might consider same. This
my insurance won't cover, but it
will cover all but the $250
deductible for replacing the
computer. I've heard lots of
stories about power surges, and
it's not just the 1/10,000 chance I
had thought. I was able to read
various newsgroups at work,
courtesy of a gopher gateway to
Michigan State University, which
keeps all newsgroups backlogged
either a whole week or the week to
date (I think). The URL is
gopher://gopher.msu.edu:3441. It's
slow, so use it only as a last
resort. If you drop the :3441, you
can find out how to *post* to
UseNet groups by e-mail. I missed
several days before I discovered
this gopher. Anyone who responded
to any of my postings, or generally
wants an opinion, even a
well-reasoned argument, out of me,
please post it again or e-mail me
(making it clear that you don't
want just a private reply).

I had to read rather selectively at
work, and maybe this is just as
well. Time constraints do
concentrate the mind wonderfully!
Alas there were some 12,000
messages to go through, minus some
2000 that were already gone from
MSU's server and from my own
Internet provider, Netcom's server
when I got my new machine. Plus 313
e-mail messages!

So what did I miss? The usual name-
calling and counter name-calling of
no substance. I note that the two
chief lady flamers, Jeanne and
Medusa, have gotten so enthusiastic
that they have started flaming each
other. How Sisterhood can remain
powerful under such conditions is
deeply problematic. I also missed
an apology from Jamie McCarthy for
calling me a Holocaust Revisionist.
I only wish we all could more
readily admit when we are wrong.
After all, our ideas are only
hypotheses.

I post this to soc.culture.jewish
and soc.culture.israel, though I do
not regularly follow these groups,
since I may have missed a response
to a question posted to all four
groups: Thomas Sowell's review of
_The Bell Curve_ stated, "the
black-white IQ difference of about
15 points in the U.S. has been
matched by the IQ difference
between Sephardic and Ashkenazic
Jews in Israel or between Catholics
and Protestants in Northern
Ireland." I'd like to find out much
more about this, and also about the
income differences between these
two groups.

As my hard drive was ruined, I lost
several postings on the genetic
similarity of Jews around the world
that cited research that they were
all rather similar, and I should
very much like for someone to e-
mail me these postings. None of the
posters claimed nor denied, on the
basis of this research, that Jews
constitute a "race." I spent a few
hours browsing _The History and
Geography of Human Genes_, wherein
the authors repeatedly denied the
existence of human races but
nowhere describing just what it is
that they are denying. Hard-shell,
devout atheists like myself run
into similar problems: it's one
thing to deny that the
Tetragramaton walked among the
camps of the Amorites but quite
another to deny the existence of
such a fuliginous thing as the
ground of being.

P.S. Is there a newsgroup devoted to
Ireland and/or the Irish?

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