The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/c/curtis.mike/1997/curtis.0197


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan  3 07:41:44 PST 1997
Article: 90732 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What Do You Know, 'rblackmore' Lies Again (Re: Jewish m
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 13:28:37 GMT
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Nele Abels  wrote:

>On 1 Jan 1997 rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>[Daniel Keren quotes Baer]
>> >  full source: "I commanded only Camp I at Auschwitz. I had nothing
>> >  to do with the camps where the gassings took place. I had no
>> >  influence over them. It was in Camp II, at Birkenau, that the
>> >  gassings took place. That camp was not under my authority".
>
>[Blackmore answered]
>> You are the liar. Baer said there were no gas chambers and he never saw 
>> them.  
>
>"The gassings to place in Camp II". Does this mean "There were now gas 
>chambers".

> Is rlbackmore really so stupid or is he just a clumsy liar??

If his posts are any indication, I'm beginning to believe that both
may be true.

Mike
Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan  3 07:41:46 PST 1997
Article: 90736 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Katyn Massacre
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:43:32 GMT
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rawidmann@aol.com (RAWidmann) wrote:

>Mr. McVey was nice enough to use one of my sentences to appear like an
>endorsement of his site .  Thanks Ken.

I think Mr. McVay spells his name with an "a."

[snip]

>You may also want to check out a related document: 
>http://www.codoh.com/trials/triussr8.html
>which is the translation of USSR-8, Soviet War Crimes Report on Auschwitz,
>Nuremberg Trial - 6 May 1945
>
>What follows is my short introduction to the piece.  It shows the
>connection between the Report on Katyn and the Report on Auschwitz.

Oh, this is your introduction? The translator is Carlos Porter. Hmmm.
I guess this is why the introduction has virtually nothing to do with
the document it is supposedly introducing. It would have been nice to
have a short history of the document presented. Such an introduction
would inform the reader about how the document was generated. This
history would be substantiated with documentation and proper
citations. This is something that is lacking in your introduction. But
I can see that the introduction isn't meant to be history but rather a
diatribe. Let's look at your propaganda. It doesn't really qualify as
an introduction to the subject document.

>********
>"The Nuremberg Trials."  The mere mention of these words conjures up stark
>images of atrocities of the Second World War.  These were the trials of
>the top surviving members of the Nazi leadership.

Leadrship that could be found and weren't cowardly enough to kill
themselves rather than face responsibilty for the horrors they
perpetrated on the world. Their coverups and hostage taking at end
also serves notice to the intelligent that they knew that the jig was
up and the world would not look kindly on the murders they had
perpetrated. Even their own country was sensitive to the brutality of
a political party killing off its enemies to solidify its power.

>  At the conclusion of
>the trials, a set of volumes would be produced documenting the evidence
>presented.  These volumes would become a major resource for most writers
>on the period, with citations carrying the weight of gospel.

They are _one_ resource to be used in conjuction with other resources.
No historian claims the infallibility of what is contained in these
volumes. In fact, Richard Breitman makes clear that the Posen
translation contained therein is incomplete and one should go to the
tape recordings for the complete speech. This last claim of yours that
the  "citations carrying the weight of gospel" is self-serving and not
claimed by any historian worth his or her salt. Mostly this is heard
>from  denial groups trying to build strawmen. All documentation needs
to stand with other evidence. Rarely in history does anything stand
alone. However, this is what you wish the ignorant to think, isn't it?

>  But what
>exactly were these trials?
>
>  U.S. Supreme Court Justice, William O. Douglas would write,  "the crime
>for which the Nazis were tried had never been formalized as a crime with
>the definiteness required by our legal standards, nor outlawed with a
>death penalty by the international community."  Similarly one-time
>Presidential candidate, Robert Taft condemned the judgement, "About this
>whole judgement there is the spirit of vengeance, and vengeance is seldom
>justice.  The hanging of the eleven men convicted will be a blot on the
>American record which we shall long regret."  The star-defendant of the
>trial, Herman Goering wrote,"I have always regarded the trial as a
>purely political act by the victors." 
>

What individuals thought personally about the trials in neither here
nor there. There was both support for and complaints against. In
Bradley F. Smith's book _Reaching Judgement at Nuremberg_ he states
that the support for the trials far outweighed the negative opinions.
These views really have nothing to do with the history of the
Holocaust anyway. The history of the individuals and their opinion
before the war along with their associations would interest these
readers here. Again their biographies have nothing to do with the
history of the holocaust let alone the subject this introduction is
supposed to be for.

>The prosecution of the defendants was not carried out  by neutral powers
>but by the "victors."  Although none of the victorious powers could claim
>to be innocent of terrible warcrimes, the greatest hypocrisy of the court
>was the decision to allow the Soviets to sit in judgement.

Why? And what has this to do with the history of the holocaust? We
either deal with CODOHs hatred of communism and their assumptions
concerning the soviet case. Or we deal with how their evidence was
used and born out by other evidence and testimony. We analyze how the
court used the evicence presented when reaching their verdicts. This
last doesn't seem to be a road CODOH wants to travel.

>  Speaking in
>the House of Lords on May 5, 1949, Lord Hankey would say, "there was
>something cynical and revolting in the spectacle of British, French, and
>American judges sitting on the Bench with colleagues representing a
>country which before, during and since the trials had perpetrated half the
>political crimes in the calendar."  The Soviets, who were responsible for
>so many atrocities would now sit in judgement of their arch-enemies. 
>

Again, the Soviets were not the only ones presenting evidence. I am
not at my library at this time, but I do recall either Telford Taylor
or Bradley F. Smith making very clear that the Americans stole the
thunder from the other allies as far as presenting evidence. Basically
the U.S. left their allies with the unenviable task of being
repetitive. Before making claims about a trial, I strongly suggest
that you, since you admit that this presentation is yours, study a bit
about the documentation used in the trial and how the Judges handled
the prosecution. 

> In a widely distributed Soviet leaflet written by Ilya Ehrenburg the
>sentiment was clear, "The Germans are not human beings...there is nothing
>more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses." Now Soviet lawyers and
>judges could carry out the theme of their propaganda within the 
>environment of  a court-of-law.

This is misdirection and again has nothing to do with the history of
the Holocaust. But what else is really new here. The denial groups do
not want to discuss history but rather use inflamatory inferences to
suggest that motives are corrupt. The above has no connection to the
document in question and no connection is shown by Mr. Widmann.

>  The Soviets would manufacture documents

Manufacture? Which ones have been manufactured that have something to
do with the Holocaust proper?

>proving that the Nazi leadership were guilty of numerous crimes of which
>they were innocent, including the Katyn Forest massacre of Polish
>officers.

This misdirection will probably continue as long as denial groups gasp
for outlandish arguments. This is continually said despite the fact
that the court did not accept the soviet version of the story. The
proper question might be, what did the court believe of the Soviet
presentation and why did they believe it? Naturally, this question is
the stuff of historical research and denial group aren't exactly into
doing such research.

>  The documents regarding Katyn were signed by  Burdenko and
>Nikolai (Nikolaus) amongst others.  Years later the Soviets would admit
>their guilt for the Katyn Forest mass murder.  Although the defendants
>were able to produce much evidence to show that the Soviets were guilty of
>this crime, its true perpetrators have never stood trial.  
>

So? In the atmosphere of post war 1945, what would you have suggested
the allies do based on what they knew. Tell the group here why, since
you claim to be so well informed, the allied prosecutors (other than
the Soviets) wanted to reject the Katyn evidence. Then go on an tell
us why the Judges failed to consider the Katyn evidence.

>The Soviets would also present other documents of a similar nature
>regarding outrageous crimes allegedly perpetrated by their enemies. The
>crimes of Auschwitz, namely medical experiments and mass murder

Hardly were they alone since the American, British and French were
able to present such evidence. 

> through
>the use of poison gas are detailed in the Soviet document USSR-008. 
>Interestingly, this document was signed by  Nikolaus and Burdenko, two of
>the Soviet factotus who signed the fraudulent Katyn documents!  
>

This whole introduction tells us nothing about the document to be
presented but rather is a diatribe against the putative character of
the Soviet Union.

>Presented below is a translation of USSR-008.  Can this document be
>accepted at face value?  You decide!
>
>[RW - 08 Feb. 96]
>
>
>
>******************************************************************
>                                   Richard Widmann
>                                 http://www.codoh.com
>

Yes, it is very clear who you are representing. Not emailed because
Mr. Widmann doesn't care for what I have to say and claims he doesn't
think anything I have to say is worthy of response. At least he is
honest. Bradley Smith of CODOH prefers to not respond at all. I guess
it is better for him that he doesn't. :-)


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan  3 11:00:26 PST 1997
Article: 90775 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 17:39:20 GMT
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kavaliers@hong.kong (Matt Giwer) wrote:

>On Fri, 03 Jan 1997 01:49:37 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
>wrote in alt.revisionism:
>
>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>
>>>A legitimate question is not answered by the above.
>>
>>It is a silly question put in this manner:
>>
>> For years now, I keep hearing about the "evil Nazis" who are blatant
>>"Holocaust deniers". Why is the denial of some part of
>>generally-accepted history considered anti-Semitic? What if someone
>>chooses to disbelieve the events which occurred during the Salem
>>witch-hunts? Will this person be considered anti-Wiccan or
>>anti-Puritan?
>>
>>Historians from the late 19th and early 20th century _were_ not in
>>love with the Puritans. They were labeled by later historians as being
>>ant-Puritan. Historians move in cycles with Puritan history. But one
>>thing remains the same. The events. How they are interpreted has
>>changed over the years. One reason is the growth of modern historical
>>methods and analysis. One historian of the 1930s commented that the
>>witchcraft sensations could be ignored for they did not influence the
>>political history of the Colony. 
>
>	And here you attempt to equate a reference to the witch trials
>with the people who conducted them. 

I did? No, it was the originator of this thread who tried to make the
connection. The Puritans recieved and also recieve a hard time from
certain historians because they are thought to be intolerant. As far
as their religious biases were concerned they tolerated no religious
freedom or much free religious thought. Their laws reflected the
extremes of their religion and they were mostly Old Testament
protestants. The people who conducted the Salem witch trials were
Puritans, btw.

> As there is no such equation that
>would lead to "anti-puritan" in that disbelief in the events of the
>witch hunts would take away a negative (and not be a pro-puritan
>matter) you have failed to connect a simple observation that something
>likely did not happen with being anti-anything.  
>

I haven't a clue as to what you are trying to say. Maybe someone could
help inform me. Keep the sentences simple and write clearly what it is
you are trying to say, Giwer. Historians were anti-Puritan in their
approach to Puritan colonies because they did not like them. They were
presented as being unfeeling monsters dressed in black and white. They
actually dressed quite well and the society, though flawed, was hardly
one lacking emotion.

Mike

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
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From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan  3 12:30:31 PST 1997
Article: 90799 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ferdinand Lassalle on the Jews
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 19:48:27 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Blackmore is becoming ridiculous.

[snip]

>  If anyone has demonstarated anti-Semitism, it is Lasselle.
>Now, the reason for the quote?  It is simply one among many I
>intend to post in the future to completely confound the arguments
>of Daniel Goldhagen and his ridiculous thesis that the Germans have
>a "bad gene" which predisposed them to anti-Semitism.

Where do these quotes come from and where does Goldhagen make this
claim. 

>  Consequently,
>these quotes are now VERY relevant to the Holocaust, thanks to your
>buddy Goldhagen opening the door wide enough for me to stick my foot 
>in......rb

And I think you are shooting it off at the same time.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan  3 13:08:24 PST 1997
Article: 90800 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kissing the Devil's Ass
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 19:55:41 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Now that the anti-Semitic denier has found two cases (without page
number to the source), this has what connection to the Holocaust?
Do you want to discuss witchcraft testimony and the psychology of 17th
century paranoia or do you want to discuss what THIS newsgroup is most
concerned with.

>For the benefit of Mr. Mike, who asked me for this information, in the
>hopes that I would never post it.  I wouldn't want to disappoint him,
>but duty to the truth necessitates it.
>
>
>From:  The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, Robbins.
>
>From the testimony of Deniselle Grenieres:
>
>"Men and women were suddenly transported to a meeting place,
>where they found the devil in human shape, whose face was never
>revealed, and who read or delivered his commandments and ordinances,
>telling how they should serve him.  Then he made them all kiss his backside
>and gave them a few coins.  Finally, he presided at a sumptuous banquet,
>of which everybody partook.  Then, all at once, the lights went out, and each
>one took a partner and knew each other carnally.  Which done, everyone suddenly
>returned to the place where he or she had been originally."
>
>From the testimony of Agnes Sampson, at the Scottish Witch Trials:
>
>"the devil caused all the company to come and kiss his arse, which they
>said was like cold ice."
>
>COMMENT:  Satisfied?  BTW, I wonder if that is where they kept the miller on tap....?
>

The last was totally uncalled for, Mr. Giwer.

>
>
>

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
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From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan  3 20:05:41 PST 1997
Article: 90854 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dilling Demonized- Why?
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Doc Tavish  wrote:

>Richard Schultz wrote:
>> 
>> Yale F. Edeiken (yawen@enter.net) wrote:
>> 
>> : (http://www.pixie.com/%7Ebewise/evidence.html) "Rabbi Reichhorn" pops up
>> : in an article written by Elizabeth Dillings (well-known as a paid
>> : agent of nazi Germany).
>> 
>> Actually, her name was Elizabeth Dilling, but her anti-Semitic ravings
>> are much more amusing than any of the ones you're likely to find in
>> this newsgroup.
>
>This is typically the answer that you liberals always give. Where is
>there proof that Ms. Dilling was a paid agent of Nazi Germany. The
>strange thing I've noticed that anytime someone attacks Communism they
>are always called a Nazi.

They are? Usually when someone attacks Communism, I usually ask them
if they have the slightest clue waht Communism is. Then I ask them to
tell me where this Communism has ever existed in this world. I usually
find that they are wrong on both answers.

> Why is this? Why would
>Jewry have to resort to discrediting people if what they say isn't true?
>Couldn't you refute them factually? Why is it Jews are the ones that get
>edgy when Communism is brought up and what to change the subject- I
>don't see any other ethnic group squirm in their seats over the
>discussion of Communism.

Naaaa, just right-wing republicans who haven't a clue what Communism
is either.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan  3 20:05:41 PST 1997
Article: 90876 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Katyn Massacre: Why does CODOH obscure the truth?
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 17:53:09 GMT
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kavaliers@hong.kong (Matt Giwer) wrote:

I realize that this is a total waste of my time, but I'm bored.

>On Fri, 03 Jan 1997 01:49:53 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis)
>wrote in alt.revisionism:
>
>>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:
>>

Mike Curtis:
>>The history of Auschwitz does not ride on a single report. Don't be
>>ridiculous.
>

Matt Giwer:
>	True.

We have a beginning of understanding.

>  It relies upon witnesses supplied by these same Russians
>as well.

Which witnesses are these? 

What about the SS and German witnesses?

What about the witnesses supplied by the Allies. Hoess, afterall, was
called as a defense witness.

>  Of course, non-Russian sources are invited if you can find
>any.

SS documents. 

>  Yes, we are already aware that the main targets of the IMT
>uniformly expressed suprise and ignorance of such events and we know
>that Hoess' family was under arrest.  
>

So?

>>>is exactly the point being made, which is obvious in Widmann's original
>>>post and in the Website location it referenced.  There he notes that the
>>>same two Soviets who signed the Katyn report were the authenticators of
>>>the Auschwitz report as well.  
>>>
>>
>>So?

So Giwer skips this one.

>>
>>>So how much confidence does the fact that the Katyn report is a proven and
>>>finally admitted fraud give you in the validity of the Auschwitz report? 
>>
>>No one bought the Russian's claim in 1945. There is nothing recent in
>>the disbelief of the Russian presentation. This isn't even good debate
>>and hardly makes a case for beginning any debate on the history of the
>>Holocaust as your denial group wants to make it.
>
>	Non-Russian sources for Auschwitz are of course invited.  
>

This doesn't answer the point made above and no one has invalidated
the Russian document in question. 

>>>How much blind credibility should be given to either of these documents? 
>>
>>Who says there is any?
>
>	Given there are no other sources it is difficult to see what

SS documents, testimony.

>other basis there is for it.  Perhaps you are suggesting those
>witnesses volunteered and were paying their own transportation and
>living expenses?

What witnesses and where did I make this suggestion?

>   (Maybe they got out of the camp and recovered their
>money from Switzerland?)  
>

The year is 1945. Present documented evidence of oyur claims. 

>>>Well, in the words of a selectively eloquent archivist of the documents: 
>>>
>>>"Zero. Nada. None, Mr. Widmann."  
>>>
>>>And Mr. Li, and all others who try to look at this situation objectively.
>>>
>>
>>Katyn has nothing to do with the history of the Holocaust nor does it
>>spring to mind any reason to doubt the murder of 12 million
>>non-combatants by Nazi Germany.  
>
>	It has to do with prosecutorial misconduct during the IMT which

What prosecutorial misconduct?

>in fact is the entire basis of this holocaust of yours.

The Holocaust belongs to history and not to me. It belongs to the
human race. Some humans fail to accept the lessons to be learned from
the event that murdered 12 million innocents and the denial groups let
someone like yourself deal with their issues. Sadly, they aren't
afraid of allowing you to make a total fool of yourself. I guess that
all water over the dam by now, isn't it, Mr. Giwer?

>  (And please
>do not tell me that a few writers can do better than the millions of
>man hours the Allies put into the IMT.  That assumption is very
>silly.)  

The IMT is only one singular source. It is hardly ever used alone as
proof of anything. If it is, it should not be.

However, when used in conjuction with other documentation and evidence
it can become part the the historical big picture. 



Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 08:23:30 PST 1997
Article: 93665 of soc.culture.german
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 14:37:54 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91404 soc.culture.german:93665

olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>In article <32d8ca7f.6995926@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>>
>>You are also quite aware of the reason for the quotes. I do not feel
>>that you haven't heard the reason before and I do not feel that you
>>mean to be obtuse. The historical revisionism claimed to be practiced
>>here by the denial groups is not historical revisionism. They refuse
>>to do the research or the work needed to revise history. When they do
>>the research they tend to distort sources and the history they are
>>trying to revise. Historical revisionism is a lot of work and
>>therefore I call what they do "revisionism." I prefer distortionism. I
>>could use my own term if the one in quotes bothers you.
>>
>It is all your points of view. Revisionists like Butz, Faurisson, Rudolph,
>Leuchter, Lueftl, Mattogno etc. had done a serious scientific work.

And their science has been shown to be faulty or a distortion of the
original work was a parto of their data. Butz did serious scientific
work? Where?

> You may
>dislike or disagree with their conclusions but this does not mean that there
>is anything wrong with their research.
>

Contrare, the refutations of their work suggest otherwise. It is the
refutations of their work that denial groups choose to ignore. Plus,
all this scientific work flies in the face of the historical evidence.
It suggests a last gasp attempt at further failure.

You didn't answer my questions to the post above about accepting the 6
million out of the twelve million. I see that you understand what
"revisionism" is afterall.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 11:26:34 PST 1997
Article: 91398 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 14:25:58 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:

[snipped -- yawn] Oh, handlers, hey handlers! This guy really needs
help.

>
>>  >  COMMENT:  These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant and prove nothing.
>>  >  Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb
>>  >
>>  
>>  Keep ignoring all that testimony I key in for you. Well, that's okay,
>>  other folks see it even if you continually ignore it.
>
>COMMENT:  the testimony was contrived and vengeful fantasy--nothing more.-rb
>

This rich. How was this testimony contrived? This dive right into
fantasy land and lets here your unsubstantiated fictional account on
this one while we are at it. 

>
>>  Perhaps, maybe, possibly, supposing, and then possibly if only
>>  Blackmore had a brain. But why not end by name calling, Mr. Giwer.
>
>COMMENT:  As YOU just did, Mr. Curtis?--rb

Yup, I give up on you. You have lost all semblance of rational
thought. Anyway, Blackmore is brainless, I haven't a clue who you are.
Maybe this is persona flaw that goes with the nym.

>>  >COMMENT:  She could not give orders to the SS.  Only to other Aufseherinnen.
>>  
>>  THEY WERE SS you idiot!
>
>COMMENT:  Name calling again, Mr. Curtis.  You're losing it.  Let me clarify for you:
>She was NOT permitted to give orders to MALE SS staff members.--rb
>

Then why did that guard shoot that prisoner after a brief discussion
with her? There seems to be a lot that wasn't permitted on paper.
There seems to be much more that was tolerated. And yes I lost my
temper. Someone who has the idiocy to write "She could not give orders
to the SS.  Only to other Aufseherinnen" and pretends to be a careful
researcher is not only a liar but an idiot. But then was extremely ill
when I wrote that. I'm not as ill now. This time, I'm going to stand
by it. I very rarely get personal, but if Blackmore is going to be so
blatent about it, I'd be a fool not to call Blackmore on it.

>
>>  >COMMENT:  For beating a thief?  She need not fear in that case.--rb
>>  >
>>  
>>  I see nothing in the testimony about who was being beaten for what
>>  purpose. Stomp those feet.
>
>COMMENT:  Grese testified that she beat prisoners for stealing and refusing to
>maintain order.  It is your little toes which are stomping.--rb
>

I see. Why don't you believe all her other testimony? And why isn't
this part of the testimony "contrived?" I see, you select the
testimony you agree with and deselect that which troubles your bias.
Why is Blackmore so damn obvious about it? Oh, handlers?

[snip - yawn]
    
> 
>  Let's see. I wonder how many individuals named the victims they saw
> blow up in the Oklahoma bombing. Names, Blackmore, were not required
>  by the charges unless actual names were mentioned.
>
>  COMMENT:  What a foolish argument.  We all know their identities.
>  
>  You do! Name 10. I don't even know all the names of people working in
>  the company I work in.
>
>COMMENT:  Pick up a newspaper for once in your life.  The names of ALL
>the victims were listed, as well as presenting their individual photos over national
>televison during the memorial service.--rb
>

Gee, were lists of all the internees at Auschwitz ever provided? Were
lists of all the internees at Bergen-Belsen provided. I thought you
knew the names Blackmore? Hypothetically having you testify as to who
these bombers murdered would be useless. You wouldn't know any of the
names.

> In murder trials
>it is customary to produce an identity of an alleged victim.--rb
>
>  
>  Mass murder is not a typical murder trial. People were not identified
>  before they were gassed. They were inspected for the abiltiy to
>  perform slave labor.
>
>COMMENT:  Ah!  So we need not produce evidence that mass murders were
>committed?  How foolish you are making yourself appear.--rb
>

Read the charges in the Belsen trial. Nameless murders were testified
to. Admission was made that those gassed were not recorded.
    
>  [snip]
>    
>   The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
>cellophane 
> whip is a joke.  
>
>Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip

We are working with the trial testimony that you ignore.  I don't much
care about Olga Lengyel at this point for I haven't the book. I do
have what Grese admitted to. She admitted that it was like a horse
whip. 


>COMMENT:  Got to you again, eh?  Is that the stomping of little toes I hear?


You need to get ahold of your handlers, Blackmore. 

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 11:26:35 PST 1997
Article: 91404 of alt.revisionism
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There was no decision
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 14:37:54 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:91404 soc.culture.german:93665

olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>In article <32d8ca7f.6995926@news.inetport.com>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>>
>>You are also quite aware of the reason for the quotes. I do not feel
>>that you haven't heard the reason before and I do not feel that you
>>mean to be obtuse. The historical revisionism claimed to be practiced
>>here by the denial groups is not historical revisionism. They refuse
>>to do the research or the work needed to revise history. When they do
>>the research they tend to distort sources and the history they are
>>trying to revise. Historical revisionism is a lot of work and
>>therefore I call what they do "revisionism." I prefer distortionism. I
>>could use my own term if the one in quotes bothers you.
>>
>It is all your points of view. Revisionists like Butz, Faurisson, Rudolph,
>Leuchter, Lueftl, Mattogno etc. had done a serious scientific work.

And their science has been shown to be faulty or a distortion of the
original work was a parto of their data. Butz did serious scientific
work? Where?

> You may
>dislike or disagree with their conclusions but this does not mean that there
>is anything wrong with their research.
>

Contrare, the refutations of their work suggest otherwise. It is the
refutations of their work that denial groups choose to ignore. Plus,
all this scientific work flies in the face of the historical evidence.
It suggests a last gasp attempt at further failure.

You didn't answer my questions to the post above about accepting the 6
million out of the twelve million. I see that you understand what
"revisionism" is afterall.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 11:26:36 PST 1997
Article: 91406 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 14:55:05 GMT
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"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:

infobahnos.com is the ISP of Judit Toth. It may simply be coincidence
that you share the ISP. It really doesn't matter.

>>     I further note that Mr. Sabitini asked why such denial was
>> "considered" antisemitic - in other words, as I read it he appears to be
>> asking about the thoughts of those doing the vilifying, not the attitudes
>> of the vilified.  If his pen was as finely-tipped as you say, then Jamie
>> gave a completely legitimate answer.  For you to criticize Jamie for
>> mishandling the question you suppose Mr. Sabitini was really asking - in
>> which case he must have been the one writing with a paint roller -
>strikes
>> me as a bit odd.
>
>I am unclear as to which camp you described as the "vilifying" and the
>"vilified". My original question was directed at those who defend the
>Holocaust as being what is currently considered "historically correct" (to
>the general populace).
>

Really? What is the "historically correct" history of the Holocaust.
BTW, Mr. Sabatini, I rarely get an answer to this question. Do you
know why? Because there really isn't one. Functionalist historians
disagree with intentionalist historians. Some historians do not fall
in either camp. Do you have a clue as to what they agree on and
disagree on?

>Disclaimer: Asking a question does not automatically place me in one camp
>or another.
>

No, it doesn't.  BUT, one who is in doubt doesn't say this: 
"Holocaust as being what is currently considered "historically
correct" (to the general populace)."  What I have seen real doubters
do is come in and ask for clarifications. You are decrying methods and
fearful of being placed in a particular camp. You expect to be called
names. Typically this is the way that the less than honest denier
enters debate.

>BTW, I don't see how my writing skills come into play on the topic, but I
>digress...
>

I agree. I hate the spelling and the grammar Nazis also. :-) That's
why I need an editor. I'm just too lazy to read over what I write.

Maybe if the challenge was higher I might consider it.




Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 11:26:36 PST 1997
Article: 91410 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ferdinand Lassalle on the Jews
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 15:17:26 GMT
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truthsk763@aol.com (Truthsk763) wrote:

> Gord McFee  wrote:
>
>>OK.  Am I also the king of the liars?  I say that there is no such
>>reference in Goldhagen's book.  Prove me wrong, Mr. Blackmore, because
>>it is you who is coming out of this looking like a liar.
>
>In the December 23, 1996 issue of THE NEW REPUBLIC, p.43, Professor
>Goldhagen dealt with this misunderstanding of his book as follows:
>
>"My book never invokes or even hints at any ethnic, racial or biological
>notion of Germans.  It posits nothing about some eternal German "national
>character"...I emphatically make clear in my book that my argument focuses
>on the beliefs and the values that existed in Germany in a particular
>time, which were part of the German political culture as it was then
>constituted, and which informed how Germans responded to the anti-Jewish
>measures of the Nazi period.  TO say that most Germans were anti-Semites
>in the 1930s is no more essentializing than to say that most Germans today
>are supporters of democracy.  Both are empirically based, accurate
>generalizations about most, though not all, Germans.
>
>"As I have made clear, I believe that political cultures change, as German
>political culture has changed during the Federal Republic.  The Federal
>Republic has seen an enormous decline and transformation in the character
>of anti-Semitism, and a concomitant development of a genuine democratic
>ethos, each of which is explicable using the same framework I use to
>explain why so many Germans were anti-Semitic in the nineteenth and first
>half othe twentieth centuries...The survey data document this
>transformation, not only with regard to anti-Semitism but also democratic
>values.  Fifty years, in this respect, is a long time.
>
>Gord McFee, in short, you are correct.
>
>Ed Marks
>

Of course, we have both actually read the book. 



Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 11:26:37 PST 1997
Article: 91412 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Witnesses say "No Holocaust"
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 15:27:59 GMT
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cswiger@westco.net (Cliff Swiger) wrote:

>The world is constantly reminded, by Zionist media outlets,

Such as?

> that the
>Jewish Holocaust

You must except the murder of the other 6 million, yes?

> must be a reality given the enormous amount of
>"eyewitness" testimony. Certainly eyewitness accounts in any criminal
>trial should be investigated unless the allegations exceed the point
>of plausibility.

Show us that testimony stands all by itself in the history of the
holocaust.

> There is a lot of "eyewitness" testimony charging
>that the German National Socialists "gassed" and cremated millions
>upon untold millions of Jews.

Here's this concern with Jews only, folks.

> At Nuremberg, much of this testimony was
>accepted as prima facia evidence and a number of German military
>personnel were imprisoned or executed.

Really? Which testimony was this? Prove that it stood alone without
any other substantiation.

> The battle today between
>Revisionists and Holocaust mythologists is over the substantiation of
>this "eyewitness" testimony. The mythologists do not want the book
>reopened for obvious reasons: Their myth will come crashing down.
>Revisionists, on the other hand, are determined to set the record
>straight. 
>

Pure cowardly rhetoric with no proof that this is the case.

>What the Holocaust mythologists would rather you not know is that
>there is eyewitness testimony that the Jewish Holocaust was nothing
>more than latrine gossip. Paul Rassinier was a political prisoner at
>Buchenwald

He was at Dora and then transferred. He was never in an extermination
camp.

> and questioned the allegations of "gas chambers." The Jew
>Josef Ginsburg was deported during WW2 to the eastern occupied
>territories of the Germans.

Where?

> Ginsburg denied the German Government ever
>contemplated the extermination of the Jews.

Despite the documents available suggesting that he is incorrect. And
why this concentration on the Jews, Cliff? The moderator Giwer says
that I exaggerate when I say that deniers and admitted Nazis as
yourself only care about the Jewish aspect of the Holocaust. So, in
light of this post, what would you say to Matt Giwer?

> Thies Christopherson,
>author of the book, "The Auschwitz Lie", was at Auschwitz from January
>to December of 1944, says that gassings never took place. However,
>perhaps the most devastating testimony to the Holocaust myth has come
>in recent years. An Austrian woman, Maria Vanherwaarden, was interned
>at Auschwitz-Birkenau in 1942. While being transported to Auschwitz,
>rumors were floating that all arrivals to the prison camp would be
>gassed to death. Obviously this never happened to Maria as she lived
>to testify of her account in a Toronto District Court in March 1988! A
>Jewish woman, Marika Frank, arrived in Auschwitz-Birkenau from Hungary
>in July 1944. This was a time when 25.000 Jews per day are claimed to
>have been gassed and cremated. After the war, she testified that
>nothing of the sort ever happened at Auschwitz-Birkenau while she was
>interned there. Maria said she only heard of the gassing tales later.
>

I'll will look into these names. Let's say that I'm skeptical in light
of the testimony of Hoess, Kramer, Klein, Grese, Hoessler and other SS
who were at Auschwitz. 

>Obviously the publicity stunt known as the Jewish Holocaust is rapidly
>being exposed for the myth it is. Holocaust mythologists, clever as
>they are at times, will no doubt eventually lose in their quest to
>deceive the world.

More snappy rhetoric proving nothing.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 11:26:38 PST 1997
Article: 91422 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Friedrich Engels on "The Joys of Yiddish"
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 16:36:42 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>  mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>
>
>  
> Sorry, Blackmore, I choose my own game.
>  
>  
>  Mike Curtis 
> E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
>  Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/
>  
>PS:  Perhaps you would care to post evidence that I am directed by "handlers"
>and how and why they "dropped" me.  This ought to be good....

My opinion, based on what I read. Based on the sloppy confused
attributes and lousy cropping of material. There's what I see as
different styles. Frankly, I'll handle whoever handles you. Ask Gord
McFee, he seems to have the real poop. My claims are only supposition,
but they sure triggered your defenses didn't they?

HeHe.

And you are right to say that such suppostions have nothing to do with
holocaust history. I'm simply bored with your lack of integrity.



Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 11:26:39 PST 1997
Article: 91431 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: control,soc.culture.europe,alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Nazi Duty
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 17:35:49 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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varange@crl.com (Troy Varange) wrote:

>> The Germans were fighting against the real evil which
>> was communism.  And communism was Jewish. 
>
>Communism isn't Jewish and isn't evil; it's Globalism with the
>monopoly capital and wrecking resistence to it that comes with
>Globalism that is evil.
>
>Whould you deny that the media monopoly is Globalist oriented
>with their favoritism to unfettered capital dominating the
>entire world?
>

I guess you are not a fan of Alexander Hamilton?


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Jan  6 16:24:09 PST 1997
Article: 91455 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dilling Demonized- Why?
Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 20:26:17 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>>>>
>And what would you call the Rosenberg's paid treason to the United States?
>Or Pollards sale of high security U.S. documents to Israel?  Is this less than the
>honest living Ms. Dilling pursued?--rb

I call it nothing to do with the Holocaust.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Tue Jan  7 13:08:23 PST 1997
Article: 91634 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Friedrich Engels on "The Joys of Yiddish"
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 14:13:17 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  
>>  >   mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>  >
>>  >  What did I say?
>>  >  
>>  >
>>  >What about this:
>>  >
>>  >"So on all accounts, this quote is full of crap."
>>  
>>  I didn't say that. I don't use these phrases.
>>  
>>  Is it your methods to attribute statements made by others to those who
>>  didn't say them? Of course you do.
>>  
>>  Mike
>
>COMMENT:  Please try to refrain from placing words in my mouth.  My answer
>is of course I don't.  I was under the impression that you had made the comment.

It doesn't move you to apologize for your mistake? Let's see how up
standing has the little bookstore/search service owner been?

Well, he accuses the wrong person of saying things. He has done this
to me 3 times now.

He quotes a portion of a book that mentions only one concentration
camp and when called on it, he quotes stuff he didn't include in his
first post and accuses the reader of poor crystal ball reading. 

Is this the sign of a clever and thoughtful individual?


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Wed Jan  8 05:43:39 PST 1997
Article: 91713 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Bad German "Gene"
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 18:17:50 GMT
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chuckf2323@aol.com (ChuckF2323) wrote:

>Chuck writes for blackemre:
>
>No one is a liar in this discussion, except blackmore. But then blackmore
>is a liar in all instances, not just this one, plus the fact that he us
>also stupid enough to percieve that some people may just buy his lies.
>
>I certainly do not, and I urge any "lurker" to check this liar out.
>

Oh no! By all means let them check out his posts and the responses to
them. Let them compare his unsubstantiated interpretations to our
substantiated interpretations. After they do that, there ought not to
be a problem with whom they believe.

Naturally, I expect a post:

"COMMENT: They will believe me!  -rb"

Or something childish like that. Blackmore doesn't realize that
sometimes silence is a great virtue. (Should I expect a childish
response to this line? of course! It's Blackmore stomping his little
feet. :-)

posted / emailed to Chuck




Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Wed Jan  8 16:18:26 PST 1997
Article: 91799 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:18:35 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:

Thread drift?

>> 
>> Why don't you make your argument. Sticks and stones.
>> 
>
>Well, as I said in another post, I believe that much of World War II's
>history has been altered to suit the needs of the winners, i.e. the Allies.

How? Make a case for it. Personal opinions are fine that they are
meaningless if you wish to revise history.

>After all, it would be no great feat to push the losing side into
>"confessing" anything the victors

Really? Why should the other side confess to something that wasn't
true? Most of those folks were going to hang anyway? Make an
historical case.

> wanted them to say

Sadly "they" didn't get them all to say the exact same things, isn't
it? It would have been far simpler. History does not get written on
oral testimony alone.

>, similar to many
>"confessions" wrung out of tortured souls accused of being witches during
>the Inquisition.
>

No one here has been able to prove torture and associate it with court
testimony.

>Do I deny the fact that many innocent people were killed in concentration
>camps? Of course not! It was, after all, a time of war, not a tea party!
>However, I am quite certain that the actual number of murdered people was,
>at best, greatly inflated by the Allies.
>
>Why? Probably to divert attention from their own atrocities to their
>hapless, vanquished foe.

This is rhetoric. No case is being made here folks.

> After all, the Allies were hardly innocent of
>treating people (in their own country!) with much civility. What was done
>with American and Canadian citizens of Japanese and, to a lesser extent,
>Italian origin? They were rounded up and kept under tight guard, much like
>the victims of Nazi concentration camps.
>

Does any of this rhetoric prove a thing? Nope.

>Of course, it is difficult to ascertain what really went on in both kinds
>of camps after some fifty years of lies and propaganda. More historical
>work had to be done before we can get to the bottom of this.
>

More rhetoric. Saying something is lies and propaganda without
foundation is not historical substantiation. You know what it is?
Words.

>I mean, if the Nazis had won the war, the world would most certainly be
>rife with horrific tales of disgusting acts committed in American and
>Canadian concentration camps! ("German soap" and "Japanese nightshades"!)

You still haven't stepped beyond rhetoric.

>This would certainly make ordinary citizens of the victors' countries feel
>better about their own vileness during the war.
>
>These are some of my ideas. Comments?
>

Support your ideas with historical substantiation and documentation.
That is how you convice an historian.

>BTW, what does the "sticks and stones" comment mean?
>

Childhood saying: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will
never hurt me.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan 10 15:20:38 PST 1997
Article: 92065 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: There is no debate
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:45:54 GMT
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olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>In article <32d65aee.415638101@news.zilker.net>, Mike Curtis wrote:
>>
>>Not only that but they don't even want to be bothered for email
>>discussions. Poor dears, they are such cowards. 
>
>Maybe they have given up answering all the e-mail long time ago. 
>

Obviously since their comment section hasn't been changed since July
of 1996. So much for CODOH mail. So much for considering the problems
with some of their presentations and the points therein. So much for
the writers of those presentations defending their presentations which
IS a part of debate. Makes one thinks that discussions or debates is
not what they really want. To place material on the pages and not
accept criticisms is the actions of the propagandist and not someone
who desires discussion. This flies in the face of the pretense that
they desire to promote debate since no one has the integrity to back
up their points or change them when obvious fault is found. This
suggests cowardace OR is shows beyond doubt that they are more of a
propaganda organization rather than an intellectual one.

> As far as I know DTV Thomas who are a very frequent poster and debater in 
>alt.revisionism is attached to CODOH. 
>

David Thomas debate!?! He hasn't yet. He doesn't want to. In fact, he
said so himself. He also tried to claim he wasn't attached to CODOH.
It seems that cowardace runs rampant in the denial groups.  All of
them.



Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan 10 16:31:01 PST 1997
Article: 92078 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!venus.sun.com!cs.utexas.edu!zilker.net!usenet
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: control,soc.culture.europe,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: The Right Wing Undisguised
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 18:44:49 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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I missed Troy's original below when it hit the group hot form his
sizzling keyboard. I found it on DejaNews:

Subject:      The Right Wing Undisguised
From:         varange@crl.com (Troy Varange)
Date:         1997/01/07
Message-Id:   
References:   <32CDAA4A.6414@phoenix.net>
<5aqhnq$39j@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <32D1C596.716A@phoenix.net>
<5aslrd$n5$1@news.nyu.edu>
Here:         Tue 07 Jan 1997 03:07:37 PM Pacific Standard Time
X-Bytes:      [ 3041]
Organization: Usenet Engineering Task Force
X-From:       fresh@scscomm.com (Andrew Mathis)
Reply-To:     varange@crl.com,fresh@scscomm.com
Newsgroups:
control,soc.culture.europe,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-Power,alt.revisionism,soc.history

>> Jenn Starkmann, Nifty Leftist Marxist Maoist Commie Pinko
>> Wascally Joosh Really Cute For A Tea Drinker said:

>Ridiculous, Nizkor and close supporters are rightists and have
>always been no matter what their previous affiliations were.

When I was a sysop on Compuserve, I was accused of being a liberal.
Fascinating! I see from below that I'm included in the description
above. On what basis, I haven't clue. What this means to the history
of the Holocaust, I haven't a clue. Does Troy have a clue?

>Nizkorites believe that the rich are genetically superior to
>to the poor, a fundamentally rightist belief; they have been
>promoting conservatism for years.

Really? Have they? What has any of this to do with the history of the
Holocaust? I'll bet you're just jealous.

>Enemies of Nizkor tend to much more progressive than
>reactionaries like Starkman, Mathis, McVay, Stein, Caesar,
>Rosenberg, schwartz, Graves, Morrison, Alstine, Curtis, etc.

It is nice to be noticed, but I wish I knew what all this has to do
with history.

cfaatz@teleport.com (Chris Faatz) followed up the last paragraph and
observed:

>Baby Genius hath spoke! Doc Tavish rules, and is a progressive to boot,

So he says. One has to appreciate themselves whether they know
themselves or not. :-)

>despite his inability to formulate a coherent sentence and his ongoing
>monotonous drivel about jewish communism!

He doesn't know what Communism is. He doesn't know what communism is.
He doesn't know what Marxism is or what the meaning of
Marxist-Leninism is. This is not unusual. To him they are negative
words to toss around without substantiation or knowledge. He feels
good doing it. I'll bet people rarely read him.

posted and emailed

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Jan 10 20:06:45 PST 1997
Article: 92096 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!news.intercon.com!zilker.net!usenet
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ferdinand Lassalle on the Jews
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:16:54 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>
>
>>  
>>  Well, one can hardly be more base than an anti-Semitic lying scumbag Nazi
>>  apologist! That a lawyer (or anybody else for that matter) simply points
>>  out the obvious by calling a spade a spade is _hardly_ being "base!" 
>
>
>>>>>
>Comment:  Conversely, simply because I point out all your errors and omissions
>of fact hardly qualifies me as a nazi.--rb

I must have missed it. You've pointed out errors? When was this?

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Sat Jan 11 10:39:30 PST 1997
Article: 92260 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!wesley.videotron.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.belnet.be!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!zilker.net!usenet
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinion of what really happened (Was: Why is "Holocaust Denial" a bad thing?)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 15:07:03 GMT
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"Anthony Sabatini"  wrote:

>Daniel Keren  wrote in article
>...
>> Anthony Sabatini"  writes:
>> 
>> # Well, as I said in another post, I believe that much of World
>> # War II's history has been altered to suit the needs of the
>> # winners, i.e. the Allies.
>> 
>> What does "I believe" mean here? One may say "I believe WW2 never
>> took place", or "I believe that Dresden was never bombed".
>
>"I believe" means just that: it is my own personal opinion. Nowhere did I
>state that what I was saying was proven fact. It is just a pet theory.

Pet theory? What is this pet theory based on? What have you done to
support it? 

>> 
>> Your statement is void of any value unless you somehow back it up
>> by facts and arguments.
>
>As I indicated above, I was making no "statements".

A statement IS what you made. An I believe statement is not
necessarily an assertion but it leads to another question and another
question. Those are asked in the above response.

>
>> 
>> # After all, it would be no great feat to push the losing side into
>> # "confessing" anything the victors wanted them to say, similar to many
>> # "confessions" wrung out of tortured souls accused of being witches
>> # during the Inquisition.
>> 
>> The "the SS-men were tortured into confessing" line is so
>> ridiculous that most "revisionists" seem to be dropping it. More
>> so since most of the testimonies about what happened in the death
>> camps were given by former SS-men testifying in German courts,
>> and tried by the German legal system.
>
>So I guess we must accept everything you say as Holy Writ and Absolute
>Truth, eh?

The same might be said about your beliefs, eh? Your beliefs are not
consistant with the evidence. It shouldn't be wrong for us to ask
where those beliefs came from and what they are based on.

> I think you are being way too pompous, or you are simply taking
>yourself far too seriously...

Sounds like a projection to me.


Mike Curtis

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