The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/c/curtis.mike/1996/curtis.1296


From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec  3 06:47:24 PST 1996
Article: 83336 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 14:13:19 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Thanks for the email lamenting the fact that *I* should be the one to
take your challenge. You spoke of dealing with my post and that it
wouldn't take much time. Obviously if this is all you have to offer.

>>   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>>

[snip]

>>  
>>  Deniers have attempted to use the nit-picking technique of  reporting
>>  "history."
>
>It isn't nit picking.  What it is is exposing the lies you people

"You people" sounds like something Limbaugh would say. Who are "you
people?"

> and your
>witnesses have attempted to propagate over the years.

_My_ witnesses? Exactly who is it distorting the trial transcripts and
the complex legal issues being dealt with by both the prosecution and
the defense? Why it is Blackmore. I tried to show this in my post.

>  And our efforts
>seem to be gaining headway after years of lies and distortions.
>
> Examples of Blackmores mendacity have been illustrated
>>  above.
>
>It has?  To you, perhaps.
>

I hope not just to me, but yes, it is for others to decide. If this
response is any example, then you have done most of my work for me.

> It is quite easy, as Jamie McCarthy has stated, to state a lie;
>
>It is also quite easy to do, as Holocaust survivors have been doing it
>for years.

Really? Such as?

>  Now it is your job to repeat the lies and attempt to defend them.
>A thankless task and heritage.
>

My concern here is to present the history as historians understand it
and point out to the readers this group how historians use primary and
secondary sources.

>>  much more difficult, tedious, time-consuming to disprove the lie
>
>As we revisionists have found out, but we are making great strides
>at this moment, as we expose the whole sordid distortion for what it is.
>

Rah! Rah!

> But
>>  that is what Nizkor is all about
>
>What?  Spreading and defending lies?
>

I recall the SRRS here who promotes this libel and then were unable to
defend it here in this group.




From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec  3 06:47:25 PST 1996
Article: 83398 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'there was no longer any escape'
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 18:27:34 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  Testimony of Hans-Heintz Schutt, SS-officer at Sobibor
>>  [Quoted in "'The Good Old Days'" - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The 
>>  Free Press, NY, 1988, p. 240]
>>  -------------------------------------------------------------

[Text deleted]

>>>>>
>And where is this witness today?

Maybe a little research on Blackmore's part will answer Blackmore's
question. Think?

>  Neither Mr. Keren, nor "The
>Good Old Days" tells us.  In fact, "The Good Old Days" title
>ought to be replaced with "The Good Old Lies".

Maybe Blackmore should start with the Preface to the book. It says
there that the editors gathered together contemporary texts in which
the murderers, accomplices and onlookers speak for themselves. We are
to understand that these documents are meant to speak for themselves.
They are not meant to be the final end all to all Holocaust evidence.
They are presented as they are for the reader to make up their own
minds. "Horrifying and instructive, this book carries a bitter
message. It will not allow us to forget that there have been times in
Germany when Jewish citizens could be beaten to death with iron bars
in the street in broad daylight without anyone interveneing to protect
them." Then I suggest that Blackmore read the introduction.

>  Here is a 
>curiosity to ponder.  On page 241 of the same book is a photo
>which is captioned:
>]
>"Lorenz Hackenholt operated the gassing installations in Belzec."
>
>Now, the curious thing about this photo shows that the person depicted
>is NOT wearing the uniform of an SS man.

So what?

>  He appears to be wearing
>a police uniform of some type-probably Gestapo, and he is wearing
>the Nazi eagle on his breast.  This was not an SS uniform.

Possibly, but so what?

>  Also, in order
>to compare statements, let us compare a statement by SS Mann Kurt
>Franz, who was at Treblinka:
>
>"Basically I have never done wrong to anyone nor would I ever have
>wished to do a wrong.  I vehemently deny these attacks against me.
>I state that the entire thing is a sham.  I believe that I am now being
>maligned for the sole reason that I was a member of the SS."
>(The Good Old Days, page 249.)
>

And this proves what about the man and the uniform he is wearing. If
Blackmore had any honesty what-so-ever he would post the complete
passage.

>From  the introduction on page xxi:

"The texts included in this book were not edited for style. Obvious
mistakes have been corrected and abbreviations have been explained to
improve comprehension. Most of the perpetrators attempt to deny their
part in the murders or to play down the facts. But even behind their
excuses and cover-up attempts the gruesome truth remains unbearably
plain. For many years under National Socialism were indeed 'Schöne
Zeiten', even in the extermination camps."

>After all that I have read and posted on this newsgroup, I believe him.

I don't think you bother to read what is said in this newsgroup.





From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec  3 06:47:26 PST 1996
Article: 83399 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Fuhrer's Gaze (Thank You, ourhero!)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 18:32:42 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) writes:
>>  In article <329a255a.12252890@news.micron.net>, kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt
>>  Stele) wrote:
>>  
>>  > Sure.  If the OSS said anything about Hitler, I believe it  (snicker).
>>  > 
>>  > 
>>  If you'd bother to read the sources, you'd find that they were COLLECTED by
>>  the OSS, not written by them. They were from interviews conducted with
>>  people well-known to Hitler, including Otto Strasser, and Friedlinde
>>  Wagner.
>>   
>>  But of course, you'd rather snicker than actually learn anything.
>>>>>
>And what do you claim to learn from this aggragated collection of
>malicious gossip?  Otto Strasser, whose brother was executed during
>the 1934 Purge of Roehm and his associates.  A real believeable
>source with no axe to grind.........

Reminds me of you, Blackmore.




From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec  3 11:45:13 PST 1996
Article: 83526 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel and Shoah
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:44:48 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John Morris) writes:
>>  In <329161d3.31003240@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer posting as
>>  impoverished@shtetl.com (Swiss bank billions) wrote:
>>  
>>  [snip]
>>  
>>>>>
>Whether he was an actor or not, it is clear that he was a liar in
>any event.

Oh. So if he wasn't an actor, well, hell; he's a liar anyway. I like
that! 

Geez.




From mike@aimetering.com Wed Dec  4 09:59:10 PST 1996
Article: 83691 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: talk.abortion,alt.abortion.inequity,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gore with the ultimate anti-Semitism.....
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 17:51:31 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.abortion:192933 alt.abortion.inequity:61025 alt.revisionism:83691

sma4@ix.netcom.com(Steven Malcolm Anderson) wrote:

>In <32A09FBB.9C@mindspring.com> Amazon  writes: 
>
> 
>
>>So if the Hebrews did NOT build the pyramids, what was the racial
>>make-up of the slaves that did build the pyramids?
>
> The Egyptians were very mixed racially. The pyramids were not built by
>slaves, but by farmers during the flood seasons.

The pyramids and other tombs of that size and cost were built by hired
contractors. The bills exist to this day.

> And the pyramids were
>ancient by the time the Hebrews (along with some other peoples) made
>their appearance in Egypt. Don't get your history from Hollywood.
>
>>Amazon
>
>-- 
>sma4@ix.netcom.com
>"The concept of 'greatness' entails being noble,
> wanting to be by oneself,
> being capable of being different, standing alone..." -Friedrich Nietzsche
>"Identity is shaped through confict and opposition." -Camille Paglia



From mike@aimetering.com Wed Dec  4 16:05:06 PST 1996
Article: 83703 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore lies again  (Was Re: Jewish author on Germany)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 16:37:57 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>  
>http://xp8.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=2172177&server=dnserver.db96q3&CONTEXT=849543805
>.26554&hitnum=0
>>  
>>  Subject:      sex
>>  From:         jbelling@sprynet.com
>>  Date:         1996/07/21
>>  Message-Id:   <4ss34r$1u0@juliana.sprynet.com>
>>  Organization: Sprynet News Service
>>  Newsgroups:   alt.teens
>>  
>>  
>>  why is everything [almost] about sex ? e- mail me sometime 14/F i
>>  always write back
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>And you really think that I wrote that?  Are you really that
>naive, Mr. McFee?  I don't think so, but go again and prove
>me wrong and tell me you believe it.  If so, I think I have found
>the reason why you post some of the things you do on alt revisionism.
>BTW, the remark about sex seems to be opposed to a discussion
>concerning the same.  And now, if you really must know who wrote it,
>it was my niece,  who happened to be visiting our home at the time.
>Isn't it peculiar that the only posts from a teenage girl all come from the
>same short time period with no additional posts afterwards?
>However, I must warn you-she just might be visiting over the coming
>holidays, so perhaps you will have more grist for your mill.

I suggest  you supervise her and change the signiture when using
either account.

Why did you wait sooooo long to explain it? Is she still getting email
at your address?

I take that back. Sorry, but the process of time fascinates me.




From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec  5 05:45:39 PST 1996
Article: 83791 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 16:37:35 GMT
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tutu101@aol.com wrote:

>You have only quoted one case, Mr. Keren.  One carrot in boiling water
>does not make a stew.

That's what the prisoners in the camps said.




From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec  5 05:45:41 PST 1996
Article: 83807 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Look! Just a little Research, Blackmore.
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:50:59 GMT
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Blackmore could do research on the material Blackmore reads in
Blackmore's latest book, _The Good Old Days_. It has become obvious
that Blackmore prefers to distort rather than present the documents as
they are. Anyway on page 130 of Leni Yahil's _The Holocaust_, Oxford,
1990 we find this about Johannes Blaskowitz, whose notes are the first
thing in Part one of _The Good Old Days_.

". . .the commander of the army in the East, Marshal Johannes von
Blaskowitz, wrote a memorandum enumerating thirty-three cases of
shooting, robbery, vandelism, and the like, expressing his fear that
such incidents would affect the discipline of te soldiers who had
witnessed them. He also noted that discussions with the Security
Police (Sicherheitspolizei, or Sipo) also noted that discussions with
the local Gestapo had been fruitless, since the latter was acting on
instructions from the national command of the SS. He therefore asked
that the rule of law be restored.
   On November 18, 1939, Hitler's adjutant reported the führer's
reaction that a war cannot be conducted by the methods of the
Salvation Army. Blaskowitz's continuing complaints were of no avail.
The events of September, when an estimated 4,000 to 5,000 Germans were
killed by Poles, were cited as justification for the German terror.
Apparently on Hitler's instructions, the number of German casualties
was exaggerated tenfold in the Reich's official propaganda, which
spoke of 58,000 Germans missing or known to have been murdered.
Moreoever, Hitler issued a special amnesty on October 4, 1939, whose
opening paragraph stated, 'Actions carried out in the occupied Polish
territories from September 1 until now, to express resentment of
atrocities committed by the Poles, are not to be investigated as
criminal acts." This amnesty was declared "to commemorate the victory
concluding the battle imposed on us by Poland."

Her sources for this material is Martin Brozat, _Nationalsozialistiche
Polenpolitik, 1939-1945_, Stuttgart, 1965 and Reitlinger's _The Final
Solution_. 

In fact on page 33 of Reitlinger we find this:

"Whereas in June, 1941, the independence of the police units in the
rear areas of the army was defined with meticulous care after long
conferences, in September, 1939, there seems to have been only a hint
>from  the Fuehrer that the SS were privileged and that the animal
spirits of the men were not to be discouraged in Jewish relations. On
September 14th, for instance, two SS men, a sergeant and a gunner,
were court-martialled fro the murder of fifty Jews. Having worked them
all day at bridge-building these two men drove the Jews towards
evening into a synagogue and shot them. The court reduced the murder
charges to manslaughter and pronounced sentences of nine years' and
three years' imprisonment. After some correspondence, the
Commander-in-Chief, Von Brauchitsch, failed to confirm even a
mitigation of these sentences, which he declared had been quashed
under the terms of the general amnesty. For the gunner Ernst the
Judge-Advocate had pleaded that 'as an SS man he was particularly
sensitive to the sight of the Jews. He had therefore acted quite
thoughtlessly in a spirit of adventure. An excellent soldier, not
punished before."

>From  _The Von Hassel Diaries 1938-1944_, Hammish Hamilton, London,
1948 on page 77:

"I hear that Blaskowitz, as commander of an army, wanted to prosecute
two SS leaders -- including the rowdy Sepp Dietrich -- for looting and
murder. But in vain. Those who saw Warsaw, with its devastation and
many thousands of dead bodies lying around, came away with horrible
impressions. Of course the commander of the city should not have
permitted this to happen, but the Nazi determination to bring the war
to a quick end was primarily responsible."

Page 95:

"Gogo Nostitz, very depressed, told about absolutely shameless actions
in Poland, particularly by the SS. . . . The shooting of hundreds of
innocent Jews was the order of the day. Furthermore, an increasingly
insolent attitude was adopted by the SS toward the Army, which they
did not solute but jeered at and undermined.
   Blaskowitz had written a memorandum describing all this quite
frankly. It also contained a sentence to the effect that, judging from
the conduct of the SS in Poland, it was to be feared they might later
turn upon their own people in the same way. Blaskowitz, as a matter of
fact, had executive powers only in the case of 'revolt' Otherwise he
had nothing to say outside the military sphere. Frank was carrying on
like a megalomaniacal pasha. Neurath could learn a lesson from him in
that respect, since he (Frank) let nobody interfere, but rules like a
sovereign, whereas Neurath gave magnificant hunting parties but in
reality served only as an 'extra.' Perhaps we may hope that the
behaviour of the SS will be the quickest way to enlighten the Army."

Back to Reitlinger page 44:

"The Reich Jews were not easily assimilated to the conditions of the
impoverished Jewish communities of Eastern Poland, nor did the local
Jews welcome them. The lack of proper food, clothing, shelter, or
sanitation produced a typhus epidemic. In December, 1939, the
Commander-in-Chief, East, Field-Marshal Blaskowitz, reported that
children arrived in the deportation trains from the incorporated
territory frozen to death, and that people were dying of hunger in the
reception villages. The Swiss Press got hold of the report sent to
Himmler by a high SS officer, according to which the death-rate among
the Jewish deportees to the Lublin province was thirty per cent.
Nevertheless, after an extremely cold spell of weather, orders were
given for the resumption of deportations at a full-dress conference of
the Reich Main Security Office, summoned by Heydrich on the January
30th and attended by Eichmann."

What happened to Blaskowitz you might ask? Well, let's go back to
Yahil and page 152:

"The anarchy in the Generalgouvernement was heightened by the
competition among the various authorities, above all, as mentioned
before, between the governor, Hans Frank, and Himmler's
representative, HSSPF Friedrich-Wilhelm Krüger. Initially, Frank was
at loggerheads with the military authorities in the
Generalgouvernement, but after the cammanding Marshal von Blaskowitz
was replaced -- at Frank's insistence -- by a man more amenable to
National Socialist methods, the army was blocked from interfering with
the civil administration and confined itself to matters directly
related to its jurisdiction."

Mike Curtis 
E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/


From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec  5 05:45:42 PST 1996
Article: 83833 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Suchomel: r.i.p again
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 18:44:16 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>I've see Jamie McCarthy who stated again that Suchomel would have
>sue in law Lanzmann. I'm still asking how you from Nizkor can use
>such an 'argument' if you don't even know when he died.

I can't understand what you claim the argument is. People tend not to
sue unless they feel very very strongly about a wrong done to them.
The act of filing a suit would bring a vast amount of attention to the
filer. Since my understanding is that Suchomel desperately wanted
privacy, it would seem he would be wise to not bring further attention
to himself. He seems he has managed to do this. He has done it so well
that you folks are wondering if he is dead or not.  so what if he is
or isn't. 





From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec  5 05:45:44 PST 1996
Article: 83859 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Nine-Tenths of the People did not die of typhus"
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 18:06:09 GMT
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Testimony of Doctor Fritz Leo 
[Quoted in "The Belsen Trial" - Edited by R. Phillips, William Hodge
and Company, 1949, p. 126-127]

The Judge advocate is questioning Dr. Leo at the end of his testimony.

"You told us that a very large number of persons were dying each day
in your camp[Belsen]. Supposing there had been no typhus, what
percentage of the people who died do you think would have remained
alive?"

To which Dr. Leo responded: "Nine-tenths of the people did not die of
typhus, but of starvation, diarrhoea and other stomach troubles.
Typhus did increase the difficulties, but the other things were more
important."

"If reasonable and proper steps had been taken to prevent the spread
of typhus, how many people who died of typhus would have died?"

To which Dr. Leo responded: "Several hundreds."

As I read through testimonies I read many of these folks had had
typhus and survived it. Others report those who had typhus but died of
beatings and gassings. It is becoming clear that typhus does not seem
to have been the main killer during the war. It was beaten by far by
SS bullets, whips, boards, sticks, and gas.





From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec  5 09:25:41 PST 1996
Article: 83898 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I have to agree with Goldhagen
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 18:30:05 GMT
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Nele Abels-Ludwig  wrote:

>varange@crl.com (Troy Varange) wrote:
>
>>Me too.  Germans carry an antisemitic gene that sometimes
>>erupts into pogroms unless carefully controlled by Jews for
>>their own good.  God bless the Jews.
>
>Another helpless troll who hasn't read Goldhagen. (I have)
>It makes one really wonder what nazi-apologists expect to 
>win by denouncing Goldhagen has racist?? 
>

They mean to spread doubt. That is all it is about. Meaningless doubt
based on distortions and outright lies, but doubt nonetheless.




From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec  5 12:07:58 PST 1996
Article: 83930 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goebbels Talks About the Jews, I
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:37:21 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  The Goebbels [Reich propaganda Minister] diaries, March 27, 1942: 
>>  [The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943 - L.P. Lochner, Doubleday & Co., 1948, 
>>  p. 147-148]
>>  -----------------------------------------------------------
>>  Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government 
>>  [Nazi occupied Poland] are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure 
>>  is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. 
>>  Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 
>>  60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent 
>>  can be used for forced labor.
>>   
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>Whether these statements are accurate or not is hardly germane to
>the so-called Holocaust, as Goebbels had no authority to issue orders
>to either the SS or the Gestapo.

Blackmore is becoming quite the child. Now, like the ol' troll,
Blackmore thinks he can set the rules at to what is or is not allowed
as evidence. Whether the statements are "accurate" or not,  isn't the
issue at this moment. The fact that the propaganda minister wrote
these words in his diary is germane to the history of the holocaust.
This appears to be what Goebbels understood was going on. Whether he
had power of not (one might ask David Irving who used to be
Blackmore's hero) isn't the issue in this excerpt either.

>  This excerpt could even have been
>an interpolation due to the curious circumstances under which the 
>diary was found.

Such as?

>  In any event, Goebbels was not a witness to any of
>the events in question.

Which events are these that Goebbels is speaking about?




From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec  5 15:35:41 PST 1996
Article: 83930 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Goebbels Talks About the Jews, I
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:37:21 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  The Goebbels [Reich propaganda Minister] diaries, March 27, 1942: 
>>  [The Goebbels Diaries 1942-1943 - L.P. Lochner, Doubleday & Co., 1948, 
>>  p. 147-148]
>>  -----------------------------------------------------------
>>  Beginning with Lublin, the Jews in the General Government 
>>  [Nazi occupied Poland] are now being evacuated eastward. The procedure 
>>  is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. 
>>  Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 
>>  60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent 
>>  can be used for forced labor.
>>   
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>Whether these statements are accurate or not is hardly germane to
>the so-called Holocaust, as Goebbels had no authority to issue orders
>to either the SS or the Gestapo.

Blackmore is becoming quite the child. Now, like the ol' troll,
Blackmore thinks he can set the rules at to what is or is not allowed
as evidence. Whether the statements are "accurate" or not,  isn't the
issue at this moment. The fact that the propaganda minister wrote
these words in his diary is germane to the history of the holocaust.
This appears to be what Goebbels understood was going on. Whether he
had power of not (one might ask David Irving who used to be
Blackmore's hero) isn't the issue in this excerpt either.

>  This excerpt could even have been
>an interpolation due to the curious circumstances under which the 
>diary was found.

Such as?

>  In any event, Goebbels was not a witness to any of
>the events in question.

Which events are these that Goebbels is speaking about?




From mike@aimetering.com Fri Dec  6 17:43:59 PST 1996
Article: 84106 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: RE: Look Just a little research, Blackmore
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 13:40:39 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
[snip]

>
>Compare this to the shooting, robbery and rape conducted by the
>Soviet army a few years later.  Why don't you look for written protests
>to Stalin?
>

Because we are dealing with the Nazi made Holocaust of 1933-45 here.

> He also noted that discussions with the Security
>  Police (Sicherheitspolizei, or Sipo) also noted that discussions with
>  the local Gestapo had been fruitless, since the latter was acting on
>  instructions from the national command of the SS. He therefore asked
>  that the rule of law be restored.
>
>Well, I doubt whether this officer could have been acting from the 
>"national command of the SS", as the SS were nominally under the
>jurisdiction of the Wehrmacht.  However, the police units apparently
>operated independently, especially when investigating serious crimes
>committed against German nationals.
>

>From  _The Order of the Death's Head_ by Höhne, 1971, Ballentine
paperback edition, page 464-465:

"From the outset the Wehrmacht had demanded full powers in occupied
Polish territory; it had also insisted that the Sicherheitspolizei's
Einsatzgruppen working in Poland should (at least during operations)
be subordinate to the Wehrmacht. A military administration was in fact
set up but disagreements between the Wehrmacht and Himmler's murder
commandos became so acute that the senior soldiers were only too glad
when responsibility for government in Poland was removed from them by
Hitler."

I doubt that your personal doubt is to be considered history.

>     On November 18, 1939, Hitler's adjutant reported the führer's
>  reaction that a war cannot be conducted by the methods of the
>  Salvation Army. Blaskowitz's continuing complaints were of no avail.
>  The events of September, when an estimated 4,000 to 5,000 Germans were
>  killed by Poles, were cited as justification for the German terror.
> Apparently on Hitler's instructions, the number of German casualties
>  was exaggerated tenfold in the Reich's official propaganda, which
>  spoke of 58,000 Germans missing or known to have been murdered.
>
>You will need to prove that these reports were exaggerated, or at least
>provide us with a few reasons as to why and how you think they were
>exaggerated and by how much.
>

I provived you with the source so that you could head into your vast
library and find out where it all came from. BTW, it is the author who
made the claim and not I. The ball is in your court where it has
remained since you joined this forum.

>
>  Moreoever, Hitler issued a special amnesty on October 4, 1939, whose
>  opening paragraph stated, 'Actions carried out in the occupied Polish
>  territories from September 1 until now, to express resentment of
>  atrocities committed by the Poles, are not to be investigated as
>  criminal acts." This amnesty was declared "to commemorate the victory
>  concluding the battle imposed on us by Poland."
>
>Well, amnesties are often granted for such things.
>  
>  Her sources for this material is Martin Brozat, _Nationalsozialistiche
>  Polenpolitik, 1939-1945_, Stuttgart, 1965 and Reitlinger's _The Final
>  Solution_. 
>  

Did you check her sources? 

>  In fact on page 33 of Reitlinger we find this:
>  
>  "Whereas in June, 1941, the independence of the police units in the
>  rear areas of the army was defined with meticulous care after long
>  conferences, in September, 1939, there seems to have been only a hint
>  from the Fuehrer that the SS were privileged and that the animal
>  spirits of the men were not to be discouraged in Jewish relations.
>
>Seems to have been only a hint is not good enough.....
>

Hints became law in Nazi Germany.

> On
>  September 14th, for instance, two SS men, a sergeant and a gunner,
>  were court-martialled fro the murder of fifty Jews. Having worked them
>  all day at bridge-building these two men drove the Jews towards
>  evening into a synagogue and shot them. The court reduced the murder
>  charges to manslaughter and pronounced sentences of nine years' and
>  three years' imprisonment. After some correspondence, the
>  Commander-in-Chief, Von Brauchitsch, failed to confirm even a
>  mitigation of these sentences, which he declared had been quashed
>  under the terms of the general amnesty. For the gunner Ernst the
>  Judge-Advocate had pleaded that 'as an SS man he was particularly
>  sensitive to the sight of the Jews. He had therefore acted quite
>  thoughtlessly in a spirit of adventure. An excellent soldier, not
>  punished before."
>
>I would say that this qualifies as a war crime and should have been
>punished severely.  However, you cannot maintain that this was the
>rule rather than the exception.

Well, it wasn't because as you saw above amnesty was provided for such
things as you pointed out. This whole article works as unit and you
should have noticed this.

>>  
>>  From _The Von Hassel Diaries 1938-1944_, Hammish Hamilton, London,
>>  1948 on page 77:
>>  
>>  "I hear that Blaskowitz, as commander of an army, wanted to prosecute
>>  two SS leaders -- including the rowdy Sepp Dietrich -- for looting and
>>  murder.
>
>Sepp Dietrich was captured by the allies.  He was placed on trial a number
>of times, and even with their low standards of evidence, he obtained his
>freedom and died a free man.
>

This was a _German_ officer wanting to prosecute him and another.

>
> But in vain. Those who saw Warsaw, with its devastation and
>>  many thousands of dead bodies lying around, came away with horrible
>>  impressions. Of course the commander of the city should not have
>>  permitted this to happen, but the Nazi determination to bring the war
>>  to a quick end was primarily responsible."
>
>Well, this is the justification frequently given for the allied policy of 
>terror bombing and the dropping of atom bombs on Japan.

Irrelevant. These are the words of a German citizen writing at the
time.

>  The fact is,
>the German commanders at least gave the civilian population of Warsaw
>24 hours to vacate the city before they began their massive bombardment.
>The destruction of the city was due to the Pole's obstinacy.

Sure thing, Blackmore.

>>  
>>  Page 95:
>>  
>>  "Gogo Nostitz, very depressed, told about absolutely shameless actions
>>  in Poland, particularly by the SS. . . . The shooting of hundreds of
>>  innocent Jews was the order of the day.
>
>Then I would like to see this order.
>

What does the phrase "order of the day" mean to you?

> Furthermore, an increasingly
>>  insolent attitude was adopted by the SS toward the Army, which they
>>  did not solute but jeered at and undermined.
>
>They were under the command of the army.
>

See above.

>>     Blaskowitz had written a memorandum describing all this quite
>>  frankly. It also contained a sentence to the effect that, judging from
>>  the conduct of the SS in Poland, it was to be feared they might later
>>  turn upon their own people in the same way. Blaskowitz, as a matter of
>>  fact, had executive powers only in the case of 'revolt' Otherwise he
>>  had nothing to say outside the military sphere. Frank was carrying on
>>  like a megalomaniacal pasha.
>
>Frank had no authority to issue orders to either the army or the SS.
>I think there is confusion here between the Waffen SS and the Police
>Units, which were not part of the SS but often wore similar uniforms and
>insignia.
>
>
> Neurath could learn a lesson from him in
>>  that respect, since he (Frank) let nobody interfere, but rules like a
>>  sovereign, whereas Neurath gave magnificant hunting parties but in
>>  reality served only as an 'extra.' Perhaps we may hope that the
>>  behaviour of the SS will be the quickest way to enlighten the Army."
>>  
>>  Back to Reitlinger page 44:
>>  
>>  "The Reich Jews were not easily assimilated to the conditions of the
>>  impoverished Jewish communities of Eastern Poland, nor did the local
>>  Jews welcome them. The lack of proper food, clothing, shelter, or
>>  sanitation produced a typhus epidemic. In December, 1939, the
>>  Commander-in-Chief, East, Field-Marshal Blaskowitz, reported that
>>  children arrived in the deportation trains from the incorporated
>>  territory frozen to death, and that people were dying of hunger in the
>>  reception villages. The Swiss Press got hold of the report sent to
>>  Himmler by a high SS officer, according to which the death-rate among
>>  the Jewish deportees to the Lublin province was thirty per cent.
>>  Nevertheless, after an extremely cold spell of weather, orders were
>>  given for the resumption of deportations at a full-dress conference of
>>  the Reich Main Security Office, summoned by Heydrich on the January
>>  30th and attended by Eichmann."
>
>Well, this is not really relevant to what is detailed in the good old days.

Of course it is. It's a rounded explanation of the General's notes and
the atmosphere at the time. I didn't think you would make the
slightest attempt to understand.

>I appreciate your efforts to reply, but I would have to examine all of these
>references you give.  Otherwise, I ask you to simpy refer to the text of the
>Good Old Days, lwhich I relied upon, and THEN show me how you think
>I exaggerated.  Fair enough?

Others have already done that in that thread. Fair enough?

>>  
>>  What happened to Blaskowitz you might ask? Well, let's go back to
>>  Yahil and page 152:
>>  
>>  "The anarchy in the Generalgouvernement was heightened by the
>>  competition among the various authorities, above all, as mentioned
>>  before, between the governor, Hans Frank, and Himmler's
>>  representative, HSSPF Friedrich-Wilhelm Krüger. Initially, Frank was
>>  at loggerheads with the military authorities in the
>>  Generalgouvernement, but after the cammanding Marshal von Blaskowitz
>>  was replaced -- at Frank's insistence -- by a man more amenable to
>>  National Socialist methods, the army was blocked from interfering with
>>  the civil administration and confined itself to matters directly
>>  related to its jurisdiction."
>
>Do you happen to knopw who replaced Blaskowitz and when?
>

Yes, I do.

Mike Curtis 
Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Dec  6 17:44:00 PST 1996
Article: 84120 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Old Man Winter
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>C. Belfrage was one of many allied soldiers who
>occupied Germany and implemented the policies
>of the conquerors.  He was later expelled from the
>United States as a Communist sympathizer during 
>the McCarthy era.  His book, which I have quoted
>from, details his experiences.  He was, needless to
>say, an ardent and committed anti-nazi.
>

I see. This is an idividual with no ax to grind?




From mike@aimetering.com Fri Dec  6 17:44:01 PST 1996
Article: 84123 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 13:48:10 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>> I gave you the source in a previous post.
> 
>  No, Mr. Belling, that was an incomplete cite. Please give a full cittion:
>  Author, title, page.
>  
>> As if you could care.......You have the source...research it.  I
>> gave you the title, BTW.
>  

This doesn't make the source easy to find. It is also an academic
courtesy to include the page number so that an individual can quickly
pick up where you are getting your information. But you don't really
want them to do that do you, Blackmore? 

>  Mr. Belling, your continued evasion is quite telling of your inability to
>  parroting fictions that something somebody else has fed you. 
>

Yes, this does seem to be the case.
  
>  _If_, you posses the book that you claim says the French first initiated
>  chemical warfare in WWI, it would be a small matter to spend a few minutes
>  to find the exact page where this is noted. It would be a small matter of
>  a few minutes to then post a full citation of this. 
>  
>  That you can't or won't simply indicates to me that you _don't_ have the
>  book in question in your possesion. (It is also likely you _never_ had it
>  your possession.) 
>
>>Then why have I quoted from it extensively in previous posts?
>

Quoted "it?" What of the other posts in this thread contradicting your
unsupported claim? I guess you choose to ignore those posts as a good
denier is taught to do.

> Thus, the implication- at best -is that you are
>  speaking about something off the top of your head and are mistaken, but
>  refuse to admit this.
>
>>I will admit this is a possibility.
>

 Actual honesty from Blackmore buried in the middle of a post.

Best to stop here and consider, Blackmore's admission.




From mike@aimetering.com Fri Dec  6 17:44:02 PST 1996
Article: 84125 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 14:03:39 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

You could have done this from the beginning rather than deal in
childish banter!

>Then why do you bother to respond to my arguments?  Now, since you
>have badgered me for the proof that the French began the use of 
>poison gas I will give you the reference- in German.  
>
>"Die Luege von deutschen Giftgasverbrechen im Ersten Weltkrieg
>ist auferstanden im Zuge des Golfkrieges 1991, als Massenmedien
>den angeblich drohenden Giftgaseinsatz durch Saddam 
>Hussein mit den "deutschen Vergasungsverbrechen des Ersten
>Weltkreiges" verglichen.
>
>DaB die franzoesische und nicht die deutsche Seite mit dem
>Einsatz von Giftgas begann, bestaetigte auch Arthur Ponsonby
>in seinem......Buch:  
>

What is missing in the ellipses?

>In allen franzoesischen Zeitungen wurde zu Beginn des Kreiges
>festgestellt, daB die Schwierigkeiten in der Handhabung dieser
>Bomben (mit Gas) ueberwunden und sie bestimmen Abschnitten
>der franzoesische Front mit vortrefflichem Erfolg verwendet worden 
>seien....Es stellte sich heraus, daB die Deutschen nicht die ersten

What is missing in the ellipses? 

>gewesen waren, die Giftgas verwendeten.  Turpins Entdeckungen
>von giftigen Explosivstoffen wurden in der franzoesischen Presse
>schon vorher angekuendigt, ebenso waren die amtlichen Anweisungen
>des franzoesischen Kreigsministeriums ueber den Gebrauch von
>Gashabdgranaten schon im Herbst 1914 erlassen worden.  
>
>Auch Otto Stuelpnagel fuehrte den Nachweis ueber die Erstanwendung
>der Gaswaffe durch Frankreich:
>
>"Im Weltkreige sind Gaswaffen zuerst von Frankreich angewandt worden,
>Die Grbrauchsanweisung des franzoesischen Kreigsministerium vom  21.
>Februar 1915 hebt bereits die Notwendigkeit ausdruecklich hervor, dis
>Gaswehrgranaten slavenweise zu verwenden.  Diese Massenwirkung
>trat zum ersten Male am 22 April 1915 bei einem deutschen Angriff bei
>Ypern praktisch in Erscheinung......Wieder war es Frankreich, das zuerst

What is missing in these ellipses. Whenever deniers use ellipses my
interest about what is missing goes way up.

>mit einer reinen Gasgrenate, der Phosgen-Granate, ohne jede Sprengladung
>im Fruehjahr 1916 hervortrat.  Diesen Geschossen gegenueber war Deutschland
>berechtigt, auf Grund des voelkerrechtlich anerkannten Notstandes, ein
>aehnliches GeschoB einzufuehren."
>
>Source:  Vorsicht!  Faelschung!  Munich, 1994, pp/ 58,59.

_Caution! Forgery! _  might be an apt title. You aren't misusing this
source are you? You are known for this. This might be curious in that
the discussion centers on the Gulf War claims vs. WW1 and WW2. There
seems to be more to this than what you are offering.

>
>So there is your source which you were clamoring for.  I shall leave it
>to your colleagues to translate it for you.  Knowing your tactics as I do,
>you would only accuse me of mistranslating the text.
>
>Good luck, read it, and weep.
>

No reason to get emotional. I require more complete information. Where
may the book be found? You claim to be a bookseller, inform me.





From mike@aimetering.com Fri Dec  6 17:44:02 PST 1996
Article: 84129 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 14:20:59 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 77
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>   brainh@itsa.ucsf.edu (Brian Harmon) writes:
> In article <57srbq$pai@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
> [snip]
> 
>  Well, here's your chance.  We can subject the tape to
> the analysis that no historian thought was necessary.
>
>It wasn't historians who subjected the tape to analysis.  It
>was your impartial court and its team of investigators at Nuremberg.
>I, for one, find it amazing that your colleagues spent all sorts of money
>on estabishling whether the Emil Lachout documents were authentic,

Apparently there was less doubt about the Posen tapes.

> yet
>never once thought of examining the Himmler tape, which is much more
>important....Hmmmm....says something about standards, wouldn't you think?
>  

Not at all. It does show that you have very little concern over the
tape being shown to be a fake since you do not want to take these
folks up on having the matter analyzed. 

>  The authenticity of the Himmler recording has been disputed by no serious
>  historian, and has in fact been accepted by David Irving and Robert Faurisson,
>  two of the "revisionist" leading "scholars".  It has also been accepted as
>  genuine by Friedrich Berg, who posted here before your time, and not only was
>  a "revisionist", he was an out-and-out Nazi, native German speaker who lived
>  through the war.
>  

[snip nonresponsive reply]

What about the fact that Berg, Irving and  Faurisson accepting the
tapes as authentic?

>
>  And what understanding do you have of recording technology,
>  mr. Blackmore?  If you are concernd that a clever forger 
>  would elude the analytical skill of the experts, why don't 
>  you contact some experts and ask them about it?
>
>Well, I really don't consider it all that important.  Having been a professional
>musician for many years, I know a bit about recording techiques, but 
>I am not claiming to be an expert in the field by any means.

Why not? You claim to be an historian and now a musician. Ehrlich606
is another who claimed expertise in _everything_ and ended up running
away as it was shown that he knew nothing.

>This would really not have been difficult, if the forgers had two machines to
>work with, as I am sure they did. 

You are sure they did? Why? What is you source of this knowledge no
one else seems to have?

> And I know from personal contacts, that
>forgeries were rather commonplace among the investigators.
>

Who are these forgers? If one is going to do a forgery why make it so
complex? Why not just have Himmler say what they wanted Himmler to
say?

> In any event, the independent
>>  analysis would eliminate any such possibility.
>
>Well, yes.  However, I have indicated that I do not regard the speech as 
>particularly damaging in the overall sense that it is invariably taken. 

I see. Sour grapes. 

[snip]




From mike@aimetering.com Sat Dec  7 09:53:52 PST 1996
Article: 84225 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photograph: Hirt's Letter Regarding the Gassings in Natzweiler
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 16:37:27 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 27
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>And accused witches testified that they kissed the devil's ass.
>Do you believe them as well?  Kramer told the truth in his first
>affadavit, before the professional interrogators got to him.  In his
>first affadavit, he denied that there ever were any gas chambers.

This is what Butz tries to claim weakly. Unfortunately, if one reads
the testimony, one finds a man surrounded by gas chamber witnesses and
they are not all prisoners who remember them. So Kramer would look
pretty foolish making such an adament denial in the face of all the
other prisoner and SS testimony. He did admit their existence but
tried to mollify his guilt by suggesting that Höss told them they were
not his concern. He claimed no control over the gas chambers other
than the fact that they were in his camp. He claimed that he had
nothing to do with selections. (Selections for what? Well, there were
gas chambers so it was selections for death or ability to work.) The
trains would pull up inside his camp so he was their. But he made no
selections, he claimed. This was all done under the control of
Auschwitz I. Think he was trying to be a little more honest in the
second instance since he wasn't going to be tried ALONE. 

>At least I still have a foot left.  You shot your own off years ago.

It's a foot with no toes.




From mike@aimetering.com Sat Dec  7 09:53:53 PST 1996
Article: 84281 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Of Course Blackmore Doesn't call folks names
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:16:39 GMT
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Blackmore wrote to Danny Keren:
>That Little ole name caller, Danny Keren.-rb

To Ken Lewis Blackmore writes:
> Only a
>narrow minded bigot would dismiss these facts out of hand.-rb

And in another post:
>Are you really such a simpleton?=RB

And another:
>Forget it, Ken.  You and your Holokookdom empire is crumbling.
>You can take your indisputable and insurmountable evidence
>and go peddle it elsewhere.  Peddle it to people who need to
>hear it as reassurance- to people who live in a fantasy
> world inhabited by boorish bigots like yourself.-RB

To Chuck Ferree who does dish it out but this doesn't mean tha
Blackmore/Ehrlich has to dive into the same muck. :
>Chuckles-go play with your tonka trucks and leave the writing
>of history to diletantes like Miss Flower.

In another:
>You're a pathetic old fart with a filthy mouth, Chuck.
>And all the beer in the world won't clean it out.. You fit
>in nicely with Nizkook supporters.  Here is one of the guys
>who was making the world safe for democracy.

Blackmore To Danny Keren:

>Silly man.

Blackmore To Sara:

>Silly woman.  Why do post things that make you look
>more the fool every day?

And in another:
> Isn't it wonderful how well Mr./Ms/Blackmore/Belling parrots the Giwer
>nonsense? He's been beautifully trained, hasn't he?
 
To which Sarah responds: 
> Bet he can sit up and beg, too.

To which Blackmore lewdly retorts:
>Is that what your husband has to do?=rb

But is any of this necessary if Blackmore claims he wants to further
discussion?




From mike@aimetering.com Sun Dec  8 07:16:04 PST 1996
Article: 84392 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No SS Man Was Ever Punished?
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 19:31:50 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 31
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mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

>In article ,
>Daniel Keren  wrote:
>>And yet, this crazed Nazi, "rblackmore", tells us that the SS
>>had a policy of punishing its members who killed Jews.
>
>    Well, actually, it _did_ have an official policy of punishing its
>members who killed or otherwise mistreated Jews without official
>authorization. The problem is that this policy was considerably less than
>perfect in its enforcement.
>
It did, Mr. Stein, however it would seem that Adolf Hitler issued a
sweeping amnesty. So whether or not certain members wanted to
prosecute or to carry out prior sentences became a moot issue.

[snipped text]

>    I'm sure a few SS men _were_ punished for (among other things) 
>brutality to prisoners - perhaps even the only thing.  I'm also quite sure
>they were the exception and not the rule.  Also, as time progressed, I'm
>quite sure that the brutality increased and the exceptions became fewer.
>That is the natural progression.  Thus citations from 1937 (as Mr.
>Blackmore has given us) prove nothing about 1941 or later.
>

I would say 1939 or later.

posted / emailed




From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec 10 05:42:16 PST 1996
Article: 84810 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Of Course Blackmore Doesn't call folks names
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 15:12:07 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <32ac2bff.351253030@news.zilker.net>
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

I think my original post can stand on its own. I'm more than happy to
keep Blackmore's additions to it for they fill out the childishness of
many of the discussions going on in this newsgroup.



>   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  
>  Blackmore wrote to Danny Keren:
>  That Little ole name caller, Danny Keren.-rb
>
>Danny wrote to Blackmore first:  Dirty Nazi Scum....Nazi
>boy.....
>  
>  To Ken Lewis Blackmore writes:
>   Only a
>  narrow minded bigot would dismiss these facts out of hand.-rb
>
>Ken wrote to Blackmore first:  Nazi apologist....liar...
>  
>  And in another post:
>  Are you really such a simpleton?=RB
>  
>  And another:
>  Forget it, Ken.  You and your Holokookdom empire is crumbling.
>  You can take your indisputable and insurmountable evidence
>  and go peddle it elsewhere.  Peddle it to people who need to
>  hear it as reassurance- to people who live in a fantasy
>  world inhabited by boorish bigots like yourself.-RB
>
>And I echo that same sentiment now.
>  
>  To Chuck Ferree who does dish it out but this doesn't mean tha
>  Blackmore/Ehrlich has to dive into the same muck. :
>  Chuckles-go play with your tonka trucks and leave the writing
>  of history to diletantes like Miss Flower.
>
>As to Chuckles Fairy and Miss Flower-they're two of a kind.
>Tea for two, and two for tea,.....Tiptoe thru the tulips.......
>  
>  In another:
>  You're a pathetic old fart with a filthy mouth, Chuck.
>  And all the beer in the world won't clean it out.. You fit
>  in nicely with Nizkook supporters.  Here is one of the guys
>  who was making the world safe for democracy.
>
>Why didn't you post what Chuckles said to elicit those comments?
>  
>  Blackmore To Danny Keren:
>  
>  Silly man.
>
>Indeed.  Hateful man is more like it.  He makes Kramer look like
>a saint.
>  
>  Blackmore To Sara:
>  
>  Silly woman.  Why do post things that make you look
>  more the fool every day?
>
>Indeed.  Read her posts.
>  
>  And in another:
>   Isn't it wonderful how well Mr./Ms/Blackmore/Belling parrots the Giwer
>  nonsense? He's been beautifully trained, hasn't he?
>   
> To which Sarah responds: 
>   Bet he can sit up and beg, too.
>  
>  To which Blackmore lewdly retorts:
>  Is that what your husband has to do?=rb
>
>I thought that one was rather good myself......
> She refers to me as a dog and I am
>supposed to lick her hand or some other part of her
>anatomy....I don't think so.
>  
>  But is any of this necessary if Blackmore claims he wants to further
>  discussion?
>
>Well, then, ask your friends to cease and desist with their
>unwarranted insults and provocations and you will all 
>see what a gentleman I am and always have been.
>You know, this sort of nonsense could go on indefinitely
>if I let it.  Everyone can see what a hypocrite you are being,
>and everyone can read for themselves the many filthy insults
>and lewd innuendoes posted by your friends and colleagues,
>not only against myself, but against anyone who disagrees with their
>opinions.  And yes, I will return insult for insult, as I have returned many of
>your insults in the past.  So don't play the pius preacher Michael,
>it doesn't become you.
>
>
>"Let's just stick with the facts, Ma'm."--Jack Webb



From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec 10 08:18:30 PST 1996
Article: 84850 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Of Course Blackmore Doesn't call folks names
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:34:02 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <32ae7180.434594133@news.zilker.net>
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

>On Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:16:39 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
>Curtis) wrote:
>
>>
>
>>But is any of this necessary if Blackmore claims he wants to further
>>discussion?
>
>You're assuming Mr. Bellinger _wants_ to further discussion
>instead of simply being in love with the sound of his keys
>clacking.
>

I'd hate to assume anything of the cypher calling itself
rblackmore@juno.com and posting via sprynet. I was hoping that the
pot-kettle-black stuff might stop and the useless one liners stop.
Alas, Blackmore, unlike most of us cannot seem to learn.

>In the case of Mr. Bellinger, as I have stated before, the
>problem is that his brain has never had a thought that his mouth
>counldn't use. Unfortunatly, he rarely puts his brain in gear
>before he puts his mouth in motion.




From mike@aimetering.com Wed Dec 11 06:34:28 PST 1996
Article: 84957 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 14:12:03 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 15
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dvdthomas@aol.com wrote:

>>How can one fake respect? There is nothing I can spot worthy of 
>>respect, only scorn.
>
>It takes an open mind, Chuck, and not the kind where the wind passes
>through the ears.
>
>David

Is this an example of _you_ sticking to the high road?
Congradulations, David.





From mike@aimetering.com Wed Dec 11 09:39:56 PST 1996
Article: 85042 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:41:33 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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dvdthomas@aol.com wrote:

posted / emailed

>>On the other hand, Thomas has made no claims about the authenticity 
>>of the tape.  Until he does so, I cannot see how the challenge was
>addressed >to him.
>>
>Thank you, sir, for stating what should be obvious.  It's nice to know
>there's a least one literate participant in this thread.
>

Nope. Yale didn't understand that CODOH doesn't respond when debate is
offered or when some of Mr. Smith's material is refuted. Silence is
their response. About three lengthy emails have been sent to CODOH and
Mr. Smith. One was posted here in this group. the others will appear
on Nizkor soon with out the benefit of any response from CODOH. We
have to then assume that they have no response. How damning is that
silence in the course of debate? How damning is a nonresponse when
CODOH is seeking an "open" debate?






From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec 12 08:25:15 PST 1996
Article: 85257 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Belling sees trap, dives in
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:03:29 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Listen, enough of your distortions and lying to not only me, yourself,
>and the public.  Fault does not lie with Sack, who faithfully  reproduces
>the comments of Lola and the other murderers he interviewed.

Blackmore seems to think he is the only honest man and everyone else
is a LIAR! So much trust and faith is placed in this author Sack. One
source with no substantiation but, horrors, TESTIMONY!

>  The 
>fault lies with the liars.  Is this why Christ, according to the Gospels,
>said, in John 8:  "He was a liar and a murderer from the beginning?"

Jon is a pretty late Gospel of which there is no original. There is a
copy that is pretty old, but how do we know it wasn't forged. I forgot
when John (the author is really not known) put this Gospel together,
but it is never clear if Jesus really said this. 

[snip the assessment of people Blackmore doesn't know]

>  Yet you have previously characterized Sack's book as "100% 
>  accurate" <57ng7c$8q0@juliana.sprynet.com> and "very well 
>  researched and written" <57ujrd$dr3@juliana.sprynet.com>.
>
>And indeed it is.  Don't be this pathetic, Miss Flower.

This comes from what is assumed to be an adult.

>  This time you
>have been thoroughly humiliated, and even your Nizkook colleagues
>and all their words of support through additional insult will not save you
>from the mess you yourself created.-rb
>

Nahhh, this has to be the words of someone fairly young. It is the
second example of name-calling in one post.
  
>  And you don't even *comprehend* how you've dived into it.
>
>You don't seem to comprehend the meaning of honesty, Miss Flower.-rb
>  

This from an individual who has been caught distorting soources!

>  Incredible-MF
>
>Indeed.-rb
>  

Indeed!


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Fri Dec 13 16:00:52 PST 1996
Article: 85453 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 16:30:59 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 28
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kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) wrote:

>
>The current point is a tape that is unauthenticated and therefore
>worthless, the Holocausters being too cowardly to authenticate.

Actually, the real point is that many of us here who do not deny the
holocaust have no reason to think that the authenticity of the tape
was or is an issue. Those who suggest that the tape is not authentic
offer no justifiable reasons to doubt its authenticity. Historical
revisionism is a burden you and others seem reluctant to accept. I
think it is a pretty gracious offer for the real historical
revisionists to even think about making the offer that they have. What
is most telling in this thread is the reluctance of denier groups to
accept the offer. The real reason behind this is that they will appear
very foolish when the tapes are authenticated and would be found
historically adrift after having insisted on the unauthenticity of
these Posen tapes. It will be another blow to their credibility which
would be much more costly than actually backing up and substantiating
their claims. Yes, Mr. Smith, the truth IS expensive.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Sun Dec 15 11:38:46 PST 1996
Article: 85876 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Gore with the ultimate anti-Semitism.....
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:53:53 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

>Are you claiming that all the "revisionists" are jokesters, Herr Kreiberg? 
>Because the statements mentioned by Dr. Keren have indeed been made by
>"revisionists" in this newsgroup.
>
>:> If you want to know what real revisionism is - go to the two following 
>:>websites:
>:>
>:>Http://www.codoh.com
>
>Ah yes, the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust.  One of its leaders,
>Mr. Smith, never debates at all.  And the other, Mr. Thomas, posts one-line
>smirks.
>

Not only that but when you email him for the first time he complains
that it is his private mail box. He doesn't want you to write to him.
I guess if I were a denier it would be okay. I recall back when he
dropped notes into my personal mailbox and I didn't shew him away.
Oh well, it must be the new methods of deniers. They drop in with
waste and then do not want to be called on it.

>:>Http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg
>
>Greg "Hitler was God" Raven?  Craven Raven, who posts once every three months
>and never supports his arguments?
>

He only wants to sell books.

>What wonderful sources.  };->
>
>If people *really* want the truth, might I suggest:
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/features.qar/
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/
>
>And so on.
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Mon Dec 16 22:06:35 PST 1996
Article: 86057 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Air Photo Evidence" - Treblinka
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 13:52:15 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	Show where Moran said "there were no buildings whatsoever", or
>even anything even close. Your failure to show it will be your
>indictment. 
>	Does Moran mention any buildings for Treblinka in his post, "Air
>Photo Evidence" - Treblinka, Mr.Keren?
>

Let me quote Moran's prior post.

"	No. There was no rebellion. There were no buildings. There are
no
signs of there ever being any buildings, other than what is shown in
the 1944 photo."



Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec 17 09:01:01 PST 1996
Article: 86215 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 14:20:21 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 40
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>>   ibokor@metz.une.edu.au (ibokor) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>>  : why should I pay simply for the pleasure of watching you
>>  : squirm, when I can see that everyday.
>>  
>>  You shouldn't! *We* pay if we squirm. You and your cohorts
>>  only pay if we *don't* squirm.
>>  
>>  Given the terms of the challenge, your comment above can
>>  only be taken to signify that you know the recording to
>>  be authentic, despite your claim that it is a forgery.
>>  After all, you and your cohorts only bear the costs
>>  if the recording is authentic.
>>  
>>  d.A.
>>  
>>>>>
>If I regarded the recording as authentic, I would have said so
>by now.

Unfortunately, rblackmore (whoever that really is) is hardly the final
arbitur of the authenticity of the recording made at Posen. So
Blackmore's say so is as worthless as a pimple on a duck's butt.

>  I merely comment that the remarks are really insignificant
>and do not lend support to your claims that Jews were being gassed.

Sour grapes.

There's so much hand waving going on here that I must take my leave.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec 17 13:35:02 PST 1996
Article: 86247 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Of Course Blackmore Doesn't call folks names
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 17:35:25 GMT
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klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:

Reader please note that this post IS from Mr. Lewis:

>On Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:16:39 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
>Curtis) wrote:
>
>>
>
>>But is any of this necessary if Blackmore claims he wants to further
>>discussion?
>
>You're assuming Mr. Bellinger _wants_ to further discussion
>instead of simply being in love with the sound of his keys
>clacking.
>
>In the case of Mr. Bellinger, as I have stated before, the
>problem is that his brain has never had a thought that his mouth
>counldn't use. Unfortunatly, he rarely puts his brain in gear
>before he puts his mouth in motion.

Now Blackmore has done this:

Subject:      Re: Of Course Blackmore Doesn't call folks names
From:         rblackmore@juno.com
Date:         1996/12/17
Message-Id:   <595pu7$sof@juliana.sprynet.com>
References:   <32ae7180.434594133@news.zilker.net>
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism



>   mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) writes:
>  klewis@awinc.com (Ken Lewis) wrote:
>  
>  >On Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:16:39 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike
>  >Curtis) wrote:
>  >
>  >>
>  >
>  >>But is any of this necessary if Blackmore claims he wants to further
>  >>discussion?
>  >
>  >You're assuming Mr. Bellinger _wants_ to further discussion
>  >instead of simply being in love with the sound of his keys
>  >clacking.
>  >
>  
>  I'd hate to assume anything of the cypher calling itself
>  rblackmore@juno.com and posting via sprynet. I was hoping that the
>  pot-kettle-black stuff might stop and the useless one liners stop.
>  Alas, Blackmore, unlike most of us cannot seem to learn.
>  
>  >In the case of Mr. Bellinger, as I have stated before, the
>  >problem is that his brain has never had a thought that his mouth
>  >counldn't use. Unfortunatly, he rarely puts his brain in gear
>  >before he puts his mouth in motion.
>  
>  
>  
>>>>
More insults and name calling from mr. Curtis.  How insipidly droll.

This is what I wrote.
>  I'd hate to assume anything of the cypher calling itself
>  rblackmore@juno.com and posting via sprynet. I was hoping that the
>  pot-kettle-black stuff might stop and the useless one liners stop.
>  Alas, Blackmore, unlike most of us cannot seem to learn.

And it appears further that Mr. Blackmore chooses not to learn but to
continue his game of meaningless one-liners. He is a cipher. There is
nothing but fact in that appellation. The reader should know also that
jbelling became rblackmore and possibly a few others. So what is there
to do when speaking about an entity that changes with the wind? A
ghost. A cipher.



Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Tue Dec 17 18:39:50 PST 1996
Article: 86312 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.rel.christian,alt.religion.islam
Subject: Re: Nazi Atrocities?
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 17:32:56 GMT
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Doc Tavish <"tavish@phoenix.net"@phoenix.net> wrote:

>1) If I were to tell of a group of people that sent spies out to scope
>out a center of population in order to lay siege to it. What would you
>think?

I'd say that this might be a good way to start.

> What if I were to tell you that they ambushed a whole town and
>killed every single person in it right down to the last woman and child?

The spies did this? Hmmm. I thought they were sent to "scope out a
center of population in order to lay siege to it." Must have been a
lot of spies.

>Sounds dreadful?

Sounds silly, actually.

> What if I told you that they had a message from G-d and
>they were also to pillage, sack and loot the place and abscond with all
>the valuables too?

Are these spies the "they" people?

> It has to be the work of blood thirsty Nazis you
>would say!

Well, it could be Alexander the Great's army. Your clarify is fuzzy so
we aren't really sure what you are talking about.

> What if I told you the "mayor" of the town was hung up on a
>stake for a day.

Sounds like Count Vlad the Impaler. 

> You would most likely reason that it had to be the Nazi

It seems that they are not the first who come to mind, Doc.

>SS Einsatzkommandos for sure BUT what if I were to tell you this event
>had many others similar to it and many towns were done in in the same
>manner. You would only assume this had to be the master race doing this
>destruction and carnage. This is what Jews did to gentiles - read about
>it in Joshua 8
>

Who wrote Joshua 8? what is the history behind Joshua 8? (Did you know
or are you slightly aware that ancient history is full of the
destruction and sacking of the defeated? What of the city of Carthage?
Those were Romans. What of the city of Tyre. The destroyers were
Greeks. What of the Inquistion or the Crusades? These were Christians.
All of these destroyers were human beings.)

[snipped ignorance]

>
>Now for the sake of objectivity and argument- what would the result be
>today if photography would have existed since Moses and these scenes and
>what the cities looked like after the Israelites descended upon them?

See all the ancient destruction described above and also picture the
results. 

>Could not pictures of a "Holocaust" be produced with bodies piled up
>like cord wood with missing limbs?

There are. 

> Fantastic you say but imagine if
>gentiles could have had a film record of Israel's dealings with them
>over these thousands of years!

Israel hasn't been around thousands of years.

[snip]

>
>Some may reason Doc Tavish is not being fair but I am being very fair.

No, he isn't showing much in the way of presenting a reasonable
argument, however.

>Read my posting that Nizkor has already demonized as being anti-Semitic
>called: "Nazis Were Not the First to Commit Atrocities." I did not use
>Mein Kampf I used the New Testament written by Jews (can a Jew be an
>anti-Semite and a Nazi too?) and you will see biblical accounts of Jews
>dragging Christians from their homes, having them whipped, hunted down
>city to city and killed in droves all by Pharisaic Jews.

What are the Pharisees? Essnes? What group was Judas a member of?

> All of this in
>your bible. What sort of organization would discourage people from
>reading their bible? Sounds rather totalitarian and communistic. Sounds
>like a cheap shot and grand standing. You wish to say these events took
>place long ago. 
>

What organization is discouraging people from reading the Bible?

[snip]


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Wed Dec 18 08:17:52 PST 1996
Article: 86463 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: The Great Debate
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:14:59 GMT
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Ourobouros wrote:

>TV and Radio would,

I thought he is/was on radio?

> at the very least, give Mr. Zundel publicity to Jo
>Bloggs.  I somehow doubt being on the box would improve his acceptance on
>modern scholarship (not PC)

How so?

> nor do I know whether being on the box is
>Mr. Zundel's aim, that is your conclusion.
>

This depends. Sometimes TV is hard on people. 

>Perhaps if his views were aired into mainstream, real debate could begin,
>as it would promote interest into the topic.
>

Define mainstream and how it is better than any other stream. 


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Wed Dec 18 08:17:56 PST 1996
Article: 86482 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: David Thomas and the CODOH style
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 18:41:35 GMT
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I found this on DejaNews and thought I ought to say something. I find
it disconcerting that I'm being spoken about in the third person here
rather than being addressed directly. 

Subject:      Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
From:         dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Date:         1996/12/16
Message-Id:   <19961216021600.VAA22188@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References:   
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
X-Admin:      news@aol.com

Dan Keren wrote:

>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) apologizes for his lie:
>
># The above was written in anger, and on reflection I have
># to correct part of it.  There was no overt threat in the
># last email received from Mr. Curtis
>
>Most elegant apology for a blatant, slanderous lie I
>have ever seen! Way to go, "DvdThomas"... knowing
>Mike Curtis, who is too kind a person, I guess he'll
>accept it.
>
>-Danny Keren.

This is the full text of what is being misrepresented by Mr. Keren.
It appears a few messages back in this thread.

>>I've tried twice to privately tell Curtis not to send email to me,
>>especially with threats like the last one.  I'll do it one last time
>>publicly so he can at least respond here--to himself that is.
>>

The second time was when I clarified what the intent was and you flew
off the handle rather than consider what was being said. I can
understand that for I've not reflected in the past on certain posts or
emails that I have sent. 

It seems that when dealing with CODOH that one is always repsonding to
themselves. This is more than clear. 

[snip what constitutes a pretty awful apology, but who cares. ] 

Excuuuuuuuuse me for copying a post to your email box. I only DO that
when I would like someone to SEE something. Not EVERY service picks up
every post. 

>A couple of comments, Daniel.

>>--How can you comment on the validity of my first impression of the email
>>unless you know what it says and how I took it?  If anyone on earth who
>>sent me a similar email were inclined to pursue legal redress for my
>>subsequent remarks being "slanderous," I'd be very comfortable explaining
>>to a court how I interpreted it and why.  On reflection in this instance,
>>I saw other possibilities and retracted my remark quickly and publicly.

Don't panic. I'm not brought to suing folks over such trivialities.  I
concluded there was a misreading and a misunderstanding.

>--You present this nasty little distortion and have the brass balls to
>call _me_ a liar?

The first distortion was on your part. Further I think that you had a
little integrity left to sort of apologize indirectly. 

And what follows below:

Subject:      Re: Clearing the air about CODOH
From:         dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas)
Date:         1996/12/16
Message-Id:   <19961216015100.UAA21666@ladder01.news.aol.com>
References:   <32b5c1b7.5693759@news.inetport.com>
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
X-Admin:      news@aol.com

>>> So I cruise alt.revisionism at odd
>>>intervals, comment on what interests me, and that's that.
>
>>Sort of like Raven who visits now and again to sell books.

>No, more like the one who squats on the statue and croaks, "Nevermore." 
>Drove the poet up the wall.

And you are so busy that you took the time and effort to post this
drivel? So much for "promoting debate."

Oh! None of this is emailed to Mr. Thomas who is busy "promoting
debate" in his fashion.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Wed Dec 18 08:17:58 PST 1996
Article: 86484 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about CODOH
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 18:14:03 GMT
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dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) wrote:

>
>Taken alone, I would agree with some of your statements.  In the full
>context of this silly discussion,

You, sir, are the individual who turned the discussion down this
route. The silliness of the discussion seems to be of your making.

> whose aim seems to be not so much one of
>issues but of demonstrating inconsistencies in position (now, whatever
>would that be useful for?) which do not exist.  Occasionally I try to
>clarify the repeated distortions of what has actually taken place, but it
>is wearing to try to explain the entire sequence when someone jumps into
>the later stages, thus much is open to limited viewpoint interpretation.
>

Debate in a public arena is trying, but it does pay to remain
informed. One sure method is to ignore or to explain why you are
ignoring that particular individual's comments. It can be done in an
adult fashion.

>I have made frequent comments about the detriments of name-calling in
>general, I think even in this thread, so your first sentence is not
>correct.

Since you are also guilty of the unproductive detriment you describe,
what are we supposed to think when considering your laments?

[snip a snide question to another individual]

>Lately I've dropped attempts to address the matter across the board, and
>tend to bring it up when personally affected, though I do take it on a
>case by case basis and respond according to mood more than design, so
>productivity has nothing to do with it.  Productivity has nothing to do
>with any of the posts here from anyone, when you get down to it.
>

Sour grapes.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Wed Dec 18 10:27:53 PST 1996
Article: 86507 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish math: 6 million minus 2.5 million= 6million, of course!
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 13:18:23 GMT
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:

Yup, I'm not surprised what I'm seeing coming from the keyboard of
rblackmore. Plus he splashes stuff on the identity list. I am
disappointed in the cipher though.



>In message <595qh9$sof@juliana.sprynet.com> - rblackmore@juno.com17 Dec 1996
>09:52:41 GMT writes:
>
>
>What is relevant is that you lied and claimed that the slabs mentioned 4
>million Jews.  They did not.  Rather than admit your lie, or apologize for it,
>you run off, assume another identity, and then return, hoping people have
>forgotten.  The jig's up with you, "Blackmore".  BTW, here's another ditty you
>penned.
>
>[begin quote]
>
>>From: rblackmore@juno.com
>>To: nswpp@earthlink.net
>>Subject: Re: Oh Where, Oh Where Have My Nizkooks Gone?
>>References: <1.5.4.16.19961215222045.6def8d2c@earthlink.net>
>>X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 6-26,28-82
>>Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 09:33:43 EST
>>
>>Indeed, they are far from silenced. Right now they have been attacking
>>me unremittingly with spams from porno sites on the web.  They have also
>>somehow cut me off from posting through my ISP---and I have heard not a
>>word about it from my ISP, though I have sent email after email.  When I
>>attempt to post to alt revisionism, a message appears on my screen:  You
>>have no permission to talk!  If they are unusually dormant right
>>now--perhaps they are celebrating Hannukah--
>>
>>Rockin around the Hannukah bush, 
>>Have a happy holiday...
>>Christmas gifts are selling fast
>>The money's on the way....
>>The stupid Goy, is spending his cash
>>On our cheap and shoddy goods,
>>While we go to the bank and deposit the dough,
>> For vacations in Hollywood....
>>
>>Izzy gets a sentimental feeling every year
>>Everyone can hear him holler
>>"Deck my tree with silver dollars"
>>
>>Rockin around the Hannukah bush
>>Izzy's tribe is here to stay
>>Ripping dumb old Goyim off
>>In that good old Jewish way
>
>[end quote]
>
>
>
>--
>Gord McFee
>I'll write no line before its time
>

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec 19 05:53:39 PST 1996
Article: 86630 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.misc,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.usa,alt.conspiracy,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A Nazi discusses war crimes (And response to Chuck)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 18:53:47 GMT
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rchason@smart.net.NO.SPAM.PLEASE (Lee Jackson Beauregard) wrote:

>kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) wrote:
>
>>War in Europe was inevitable because of Versailles.  Versailles was
>>precipitated by the last-second defeat of Germany made possible only
>>through a  timely revolution staged by Jews in Germany (under Rosa
>>Luxembourg) to ensure Allied victory according to plan (The Balfour
>>Declaration struck between Jews and Britain to give the Jews
>>Palestine.).
>
>Germany lost the war fair and square.  Germany lost the war because Britain,
>France, and the USA kicked their butts.  Get over it, Nazischwein.
>

You are indeed correct. It did take American manpower and
inventiveness to win the First World War. The Americans sent men. The
other allies supplied the uniforms and the weapons. However, the usual
tactic in WW1 was to charge a position after shelling it. The body
count ran up because the shelled party kept filling in the losses with
live bodies. what the allies came up with was to shell _behind_ the
main line to prevent reinforcements. Then the Americans simply went
through the main line and kept going.

It is considered by some historians a shame that German soil was never
really a part of the war. It is thought that they never felt a true
sense of defeat. I think they finally felt that in 1945.

>>There was never extermination of Jews by gassing or any
>>Reich plan ordered to exterminate Jews.   Had that been true the
>>Allies would have found no Jews left alive in the "deathcamps" upon
>>liberation.  
>
>Why were those camps there in the first place?
>

This is also an excellent question. What the deniers also forget are
all the children sent to such places and never seen again. Not to
mention all the adults.

Very few were left in Auschwitz. Those who were left were near
immobile,dying, or dead. The rest were driven on marches to other
camps such as Bergen-Belsen. The extermination camps were primary in
Poland.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec 19 07:46:34 PST 1996
Article: 86731 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Coming Soon to a Theatre Near You
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 15:11:14 GMT
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tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:

>There is nothing to debate.  You can't debate the unwilling.
>

Really, Mr. Blackmore/Belling/Tutu101 and God knows who else?

Wxactly who here IS unwilling? What IS obvious is that Bradely Smith
isn't here. Zündel isn't here. Raven shows up to sell books. David
Thomas shows up to complain. Many others simply are not here. So we
are left  with ciphers like yourself.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec 19 10:00:37 PST 1996
Article: 86746 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 21:56:14 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Blackmore has returned once again to provide us with insite.

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:
>  In article <593e5s$o8e@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  [snip]
>  
>   In the case of Irma Grese, one should simply reflect on the fact that 
>   it is not easy to manage 20-30,000 inmates.  Auschwitz was a detention 
>   center, where criminals were freely interspersed among those simply being 
>   held in “protective custody”.  
>  
>  Mr. Belling is being quite disingenuous here in calling Auschwitz a
>  "detention center." Auschwitz I and III (Monowitz) were slave labor camps.
>  Auschwitz-II Birkenau was unquestionably an extermination camp. The
>  prisoners held there in "protective custody" were either slated for
>  extermination from being worked to death; through privation, starvation,
>  and disease; and/or in the gas chambers at Birkenau. 
>
>Mark Van Alstine Propagandizing Again.-rb
>

Actually he is making clear what you tend to "leave out."
  
>  [Mr. Belling's Nazi apologia snipped]
>  
>   Grese’s duties at Auschwitz varied.  Most of her work was rather benign, 
>   such as sorting through parcels and overseeing construction projects. 
>   However, from May until December, 1944, Grese was appointed senior 
>   Aufseherin for Compound “C”, which turned out to be the eventual cause 
>   of her undoing. There she had to oversee 20-30,000 Hungarian Jewesses, all 
>   held in protective custody. The huge influx of detainees created problems 
>   which were addressed with difficulty by the relatively young and 
> inexperienced Grese. Most of the problems centered around the distribution
>  of food.... 
>  
>  The fallacy of Mr. Belling's Nazi apologia is exposed by the following
>  excerpt from ex-prisoner Olga Lengyel's _Five Chimneys_ (pp.103-104):
>  
>  "...At that time the 'selections' were made by the chief camp
>  directresses, Hasse and Irma Griese. On Mondays, Wednesdays, and
>  Saturdays, the roll call lasted from dawn until the end of the afternoon,
>  when they had their full quota of victims.
>
>Yes---well, where was she at Grese's trial?  And why should we believe her?-rb
>  

This is irrelevent. She wasn't needed at the Belsen trial. They had
plenty of witnesses against her. 

>>  "When these two women appeared at the camp entrance, the internees, who
>>  already knew what top expect, became panic stricken. The beautiful Irma
>>  Griese advanced toward the prisoners with a swinging gait, her hips
>>  swaying, and the eyes of 40,000 wretched women, mute and motionless, upon
>>  her. She was of medium height, elegantly dressed, with every hair in
>>  place. The mortal terror which her mere presence inspired visibly pleased
>>  her. For this twenty-two-year-old girl was completely without pity. With a
>>  sure hand she chose her victims, not only from the healthy but from the
>>  sick, the feeble, and the incapacitated. Those who, despite their hunger
>>  and toture, still showed a glimmer of their former physical beauty were
>>  the first to be taken. They were Irma Griese's special targets. 
>
>Right.  Little ole Irma Grese terrorizing 40 thousand people.  Don't you realize how
>ridiculous you sound by posting this nonsense?--rb

Blackmore shows again that he is unable to read text. It says that the
eyes of 40,000 women were on her. It doesn't say they were terrorized
by her alone. 

>>  
>>  "During the 'selections' the 'blonde Angel of Belsen,' as she was later to
>>  be called by the press, made liberal use of her whip. She slashed
>>  everywhere she wished, and we endured as well as we could. Our shrieks of
>>  pain and our spurts of blood made her smile. What faultless, peraly teeth
>>  she had!
>
>Now--she is given Mengele's nickname--Der Weisse Engel.....right--more
>mythological tales from a "survivor" "witness" who can offer nothing in confirmation
>of what she writes and who never appeared at the trial.--rb

You never did finish wading through the trial did you. Once Blackmore
found that others had the material and were pointing out his
distortions he moved on to _The Good Old Days_ and when that didn't
work he chose something in German. This last was pretty obscure and
without proper identification. The games these deniers play.

>>  
>>  "One day in June, 1944, 315 'selected' women were pushed together into a
>>  washroom. In the big hall the unfortunate ones had already been kicked and
>>  whipped. Then Irma Griese commanded the S.S. guards to nail the door shut.
>>  As simple as that.
>
>Irma Grese could not give commands to SS guards, Mikie.--rb

Ewww, Mikie? This is Mark you are responding to and not me, Mr.
Blackmore.  I think you meant Markie. The trial makes clear that she
gave orders, btw.

[snip]

>>  
>>  The mendacious Nazi apologia of Mr. Belling is once again exposed by the
>>  following excerpt from Deborah Dwork's and Robert Jan Van Pelt's
>>  _Auscwhitz: 1270 to the present_ (p.268) :
>>  
>>  "The design of the wash barracks and the privies was, in fact, lethal....
>>  Architects and bureucrats are to blame: the design was inadequate, and not
>>  enough material and financial resources were allocated for the camp's
>>  construction. Whether the architects designed to degrade the prisoner's or
>>  not, the result was the same: with the latrines submerged in excrement,
>>  with very little water to be had at very few points, and with mud ev
>>  erywhere, what remained was an inmate population without the means to
>>  preserve any outward sign of human dignity. As Des Pres asked, 'How much
>>  self-esteem can one maintain, how readily can one respond to the needs of
>>  another, if both stink, if both are caked with mud and feces?'
>
>Er---this hardly answers the question.  And indeed what I wrote was the truth.
>The same foulness repeated itself at belsen, where the new inmates turned the
>camp into a veritable pigsty.--rb
>

Do human beings choose to live in filth, Blackmore? Do human being
choose to be defecated upon because they are in crowded conditions and
cannot move for fear of losing what little space they have? Who
created the conditions for the living conditions the inmates (note
that these are prisoners) were forced to live in.

>
>Marks irrelevant comments snipped
>
>>  To blame the _victims_ of this Nazi "biological disaster," and _not_ the
>>  Nazi perpetrators, in attempting to white-wash the crimes of Irma Griese,
>>  is simply malicious hypocrisy of the highest order on Mr. Belling's part. 
>
>Afraid not, Michael.--rb

Sorry, but this is Mark. I hope that someday you can get it all put
together, Blackmore. Afraid not, Blackmore says. Wow, I'm impressed
with this kind of refutation!

>>  
>>  > This would explain the pervasive stench around Auschwitz and another 
>>  > reason why it was referred to as “Anus Mundi”.
>>  
>>  Again, the maliciousness of Mr. Belling's dishonesty comes to the
>>  forefront with this puerile lie. The reference to Auschwitz being the
>>  "anus mundi" had no relation whatsoever as to "the pervasive stench around
>>  Auschwitz," as can be seen by the context it was used in by its
>>  originator, Joseph Kremer, in his diary (Czech, _KL Auschwitz_, p.215.):
>
>Kremer was referring to people who were ill from typhus and dysentery.  they 
>were covered with excrement due to their illnesses.

See my comment above. I suggest you finish reading the Belsen trial.

>  That is why he uses the
>term "Anus Mundi".  The sewage for Auschwitz was always inadequately built,
>thus "backing up" and creating a foul stench throughout the camp, which many
>prisoners imagined was the stench of burning bodies.--rb

Really? Citiation?

>Mark snipped

That's the way, snip your primary correspondent.
>
>What Kremer had to say at his trial while in the hands of the brutal Poles
>and Communists is of no relevance to what actually occurred in the camp.-rb
>

Where is this? citation?

>>  >  penalty, as the prosecution failed to live up to the burden of proof 
>>  > which would be required in any impartial court today.  
>>  
>>  What is clear is that Mr. Belling has offered a distorted and fallacious
>>  version of Irma Grese, the "blonde Angel of Belsen," in order to
>>  white-wash her crimes. What is equally clear is that Irma Grese was a
>>  torturer and assulter of prisoners was sentanced to death for her sadism
>>  and cruelty against the victims of Nazi mass murder and brutality. Victims
>>  who she helped to select and brutalize. 
>
>She was never referred to as the blonde angel of Belsen, as she was only there for
>ONE MONTH.  This description is simply a fanciful invention of another mendacious
>survivor "witness" who wanted to sell a book.

What book is this?

>  The rest of your comments about her character
>and so on are not proven by the testimony or the records of the trial.  This wasn't even a good
>try on your part.  You lose again.  Big time,--rb

Mr. blackmore stamps his tiny feet!

>>  
>>  In closing yet another sad chapter on Mr. Belling's lying scumbag Nazi
>
>Uh huh.  More name calling from someone who is at the losing end of
>the argument.  That's all you can do--call people names in your frustration.-rb
>

Yes, Mark has a very poor opinion of you, sir.

>>  apologia, I would note that not _once_ did Mr. Belling cite a source
>>  reference in support for his innendo and lies. One cannot but speculate
>>  that Mr. Belling's story about the sadistic "blonde Angel of Belsen" is
>>  nothing more a figment of his puerile imagination and is yet another of
>>  his Nazi hero-worshipping fantasies. 
>
>Read the book.  By the way---where is the report on the alleged forensic tests
>allegedly conducted at Dachau.  I have only been asking for the past 7 months.
>Where IS that crow pie, mark?  Or have YOU already eaten it?--rb
>
>

Dachau? Let's see, we have seen Belsen and Auschwitz in this post.
BTW, you have been told where to look, you just haven't pulled the
keyboard out of your mouth long enough to go and look.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec 19 13:04:17 PST 1996
Article: 86796 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 15:09:02 GMT
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tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:

>I have already replied to Mr. Keren's arguments in another post.--

A typical rbalckmore copout.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
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From mike@aimetering.com Thu Dec 19 15:07:50 PST 1996
Article: 86798 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Blackmore/Bellinger
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 18:54:21 GMT
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dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) apologizes for his lie:
>
># The above was written in anger, and on reflection I have
># to correct part of it.  There was no overt threat in the
># last email received from Mr. Curtis
>
>Most elegant apology for a blatant, slanderous lie I
>have ever seen! Way to go, "DvdThomas"... knowing
>Mike Curtis, who is too kind a person, I guess he'll
>accept it.
>

Thanks for the kind words, Danny. See the thread "David Thomas and the
CODOH way" for my acceptance of his apology.

I could actually post this "threatening" email I sent, but why bother
point out what he has already seen. 

Now back to the debate that he seems unwilling to take part in.


Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Sun Dec 22 10:06:12 PST 1996
Article: 87481 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 16:11:14 GMT
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tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:

>I have already replied to Mr. Keren's arguments in another post.--

Let's look at what the Prosecutions presents on page 615 of _The
Belsen Trial_, 1949:

[_The Trial of Josef Kramer and 44 Others: The Belsen Trial_, Wiliam
Hodge Company, 1944, edited by Raymond Phillips.]

   The next accused, Grese, is a curious woman, who is quite frank
about almost everything which is alleged against her. She was trained
in Ravensbrück, and says she was conscripted into the S.S. If she was
conscripted into the S.S., why do you think her father thrashed her
and turned her out of the house? Grese's sister says that when they
were children they both wanted to be in the Bund Deutscher Mädchen but
their father would not let them, but Grese had ambitions to be in the
Nazi Youth Movement before she ever went away to work, and when she
comes back dressed up in the uniform of a concentration camp guard her
father gives her a thrashing and turns her out of the house. It is one
of two things--either she was taken against her will, or she told him
what things were happening and what she was doing.

  She graduates from Ravensbrück to Auschwitz, and her first job,
according to herself, was telephone duty in the Blockführer's room,
although Kopper said that they never did employ women on that duty at
all. She admits being in charge of the Strafkommando for two days,
because, I submit, Volkenrath had already said so. Kopper says that
she was in charge of this Kommando for some seven months. You will
remember the story of sending Jewesses to fetch things beyond the wire
and Kopper's story of the enquiry which resulted. Can you imagine
Kopper making up such an extraordinary story? Then she is in charge of
the gardening Kommando, and you have the stories of her riding about
on a bicycle with the dog. She denies ever having a dog, and saysthat
although she had a bicycle she never used it as Aufseherinnen were not
allowed to. You have the sories of Rosenwayg, Watnik, and Triszinska
of her being in charge of this Kommando, with Lotheas a Kapo, and
setting dogs on them. Then she came back to camp duties and went back
to the post office. It is plain from Hoessler's evidence that she also
had to help the Blockführer in the morning when the working parties
came in, and here again you have a number of incidents which were said
to have occurred whilst she was acting as Blockführerin. Then, quite
suddenly, this young girl was put in charge of the Aufseherinnen in
Camp C, the camp where the gassings of the Hungarians are about to
begin. She is put in charge of 30,000 people. You have heard about the
cellophane whip which, she says, was made to hurt. In Camp C there
were long Appelle which sometimes lasted three to four hours. She is
quite frank about it, and on her own admissions alone I would suggest
that at Auschwitz there is ample evidence to show she was
ill-treating, beating and prolonging Appelle.

   Then she comes to Belsen and is made Arbeitsdienstführerin, and
again you have the stories as to how she beat people. She stood at the
gate beating them, she beat girls working in the kitchen, and she beat
people and made them do sport. She says: "Although I carried a whip
and beat people at Auschwitz, for some rason I never did it at Belsen.
I always used my hands at Belsen, although at Belsen the prisoners
were so horrid I did not like touching them." So far as that girl is
concerned, her sister said that when she was a child she was a
frightened child and a little coward who ran away, and she adopted
this doctrine of Nazism which turns the coward into the bully. She
went to Revensbrück and there she found her courage, because people
dared not hit back. At Auschwitz she had her revolver and cellophane
whip, and at the age of about 21 she finds herself in charge of 30,000
women. She makes no secret of it. She beat them, and when she came on
to Belsen can you doubt that she carried on in precisely the same way?

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)


From mike@aimetering.com Sun Dec 22 10:06:13 PST 1996
Article: 87495 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Now Playing....Irma Grese
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 17:12:27 GMT
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tutu101@aol.com (Tutu101) wrote:

>I have already replied to Mr. Keren's arguments in another post.--

Let's look at what the Prosecutions presents on page 615 of _The
Belsen Trial_, 1949:

[_The Trial of Josef Kramer and 44 Others: The Belsen Trial_, Wiliam
Hodge Company, 1944, edited by Raymond Phillips.]

   The next accused, Grese, is a curious woman, who is quite frank
about almost everything which is alleged against her. She was trained
in Ravensbrück, and says she was conscripted into the S.S. If she was
conscripted into the S.S., why do you think her father thrashed her
and turned her out of the house? Grese's sister says that when they
were children they both wanted to be in the Bund Deutscher Mädchen but
their father would not let them, but Grese had ambitions to be in the
Nazi Youth Movement before she ever went away to work, and when she
comes back dressed up in the uniform of a concentration camp guard her
father gives her a thrashing and turns her out of the house. It is one
of two things--either she was taken against her will, or she told him
what things were happening and what she was doing.

  She graduates from Ravensbrück to Auschwitz, and her first job,
according to herself, was telephone duty in the Blockführer's room,
although Kopper said that they never did employ women on that duty at
all. She admits being in charge of the Strafkommando for two days,
because, I submit, Volkenrath had already said so. Kopper says that
she was in charge of this Kommando for some seven months. You will
remember the story of sending Jewesses to fetch things beyond the wire
and Kopper's story of the enquiry which resulted. Can you imagine
Kopper making up such an extraordinary story? Then she is in charge of
the gardening Kommando, and you have the stories of her riding about
on a bicycle with the dog. She denies ever having a dog, and saysthat
although she had a bicycle she never used it as Aufseherinnen were not
allowed to. You have the sories of Rosenwayg, Watnik, and Triszinska
of her being in charge of this Kommando, with Lotheas a Kapo, and
setting dogs on them. Then she came back to camp duties and went back
to the post office. It is plain from Hoessler's evidence that she also
had to help the Blockführer in the morning when the working parties
came in, and here again you have a number of incidents which were said
to have occurred whilst she was acting as Blockführerin. Then, quite
suddenly, this young girl was put in charge of the Aufseherinnen in
Camp C, the camp where the gassings of the Hungarians are about to
begin. She is put in charge of 30,000 people. You have heard about the
cellophane whip which, she says, was made to hurt. In Camp C there
were long Appelle which sometimes lasted three to four hours. She is
quite frank about it, and on her own admissions alone I would suggest
that at Auschwitz there is ample evidence to show she was
ill-treating, beating and prolonging Appelle.

   Then she comes to Belsen and is made Arbeitsdienstführerin, and
again you have the stories as to how she beat people. She stood at the
gate beating them, she beat girls working in the kitchen, and she beat
people and made them do sport. She says: "Although I carried a whip
and beat people at Auschwitz, for some rason I never did it at Belsen.
I always used my hands at Belsen, although at Belsen the prisoners
were so horrid I did not like touching them." So far as that girl is
concerned, her sister said that when she was a child she was a
frightened child and a little coward who ran away, and she adopted
this doctrine of Nazism which turns the coward into the bully. She
went to Revensbrück and there she found her courage, because people
dared not hit back. At Auschwitz she had her revolver and cellophane
whip, and at the age of about 21 she finds herself in charge of 30,000
women. She makes no secret of it. She beat them, and when she came on
to Belsen can you doubt that she carried on in precisely the same way?

Mike Curtis

      Nizkor (USA) - An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
      Anonymous ftp: http://ftp.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?  
      European mirror: http://www1.de.nizkor.org/~nizkor/
      Nizkor Web: http://www.nizkor.org/ (Under construction - permanently!)



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