From mike@aimetering.com Sun Nov  3 20:56:25 PST 1996
Article: 78392 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Hoess Testimony BITES THE DUST!!!!
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 14:08:37 GMT
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Greg Raven  wrote:

>Gord McFee wrote:
>> 
>> In message <54sppe$3d7@is05.micron.net> - kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)Sat,
>> 26 Oct 1996 10:48:54 GMT writes:

>> :>And think of how much of the Holocaust DEPENDS on Hoess...
>> 
>> Wrong again, Kurt, but that's par for the course.  The Holocaust doesn't
>> depend on Hoess even a little bit, let alone a lot.  But you knew that.
>
>Really? Who would you cite as German eyewitnesses to the gassing
>process, then? Hoess, Gerstein, maybe Kramer? Kramer clearly did not see
>the details of any gassing, assuming for the sake of argument that the
>"special action" of which he writes was a gassing (I think it was not).
>

Höss, Gerstein, and Eichmann are three. Then there is Broad that makes
four. There are probably more but at this point of discussion you are
difficult to take seriously. Take their recollections and testimony
and put it with sondercommando testimony, blueprints, camp supply
orders, correspondence, and other materials and what have you got?
A pretty clear idea of the process and how it came about. 

How do we know what happened in the Battle of Shiloh? We use
correspondence, Official documents and reports for both sides, and
after battle photographs of the area to get the initial idea of what
occurred. We flesh that out with memoirs of the participants. Like the
gassing of human beings above we can also put together in a pretty
good picture of a battle fought well over 100 years ago. We do not
even need live witnesses anymore. 

>Gerstein was a nut, who left seven (?) different versions of his
>"confession." Unfortunately, he died before he was able to make them all
>agree with one another.
>

>Hoess gives the best detail (including aspects of an alleged homicidal
>gassing that are contrary to the laws of physics and nature).
>

Because Mr. Raven says so. I'll bet you are tailing on the lighter
than air claim of that silly rblackmore. 

>It is commonly claimed that Hoess is the best SS witness to the alleged
>homicidal gassings. Without him, who do you have?
>

Lots more than you think, Mr. Raven. Historical events do not fall by
the loss of a single witness.

All corresponence that has to do with this issue will appear here, Mr.
Raven. The last time you bailed out even in email so from now on do it
here.

posted/emailed


From mike@aimetering.com Tue Nov  5 06:58:26 PST 1996
Article: 78572 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Cremation Furnaces for 'Bath Installations'?
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 13:56:57 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

>If you are so convince that I lied when I said 'preexisting' rather
>than a mistake by ignorance when I checked the map all you have to 
>do is to send my post to nizkor and say: I got it! Beaulieu _lied_ HA
>HA HA HA! He's finished! I'll post this FAQ each month with the title:
>one question Beaulieu won't answer, HA,HA,HA!!!!

This seems to be the denier technique. Once someone appears to be
making a mistake then they become liars and everything they have said
before and after is also a lie. How should we really treat or analyze
errors on the part of witnesses? Really.

> This is a unique
>opportunity for you to convince the lurkers, if there's really lurkers.

There really are lurkers.

[snip]




From mike@aimetering.com Tue Nov  5 06:58:26 PST 1996
Article: 78573 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Rblackmore Lies for the nth time... Re: Let's Not Be Beastly to the Germans
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 13:58:17 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:


>Look who's talking.  At any rate, I'm here to stay, and every
>insult is music to my ears.

Then where the hell are you, Mr. Blackmore?

:-)




From mike@aimetering.com Thu Nov  7 06:12:32 PST 1996
Article: 78759 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!zilker.net!usenet
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: **************** G I W E R   R U L E S  ***************************************************
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 21:41:08 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <32793cdd.441542@news.zippo.com>, ccarp@concept.net (Chris
>Carpenter) wrote:
>

>> You guys run him off for a couple of days and look what happened.
>
>Indeed. He gets get's to hunt for yet another ISP. It's like musical
>chairs: Sooner or later the chairs run out. 
>

Maybe the word will get around that the clown is more trouble than his
few dollars are worth.

>> Did you think he would not return?
>
>Actually, I could care less. I've had him killfiled for months nows. 
>

Yup, it is a killfile adventure. Now he spends most of his time trying
to get around killfiles.  Quite a hoot.

>> Giwer achieves his goals, I'm sure.
>
>Indeed. He proves he is an unmitigated ass in need of some serious mental
>therapy. He should be committed. He's that sick. Seriously. 
>

He also reflects on those who approve and support him.






From mike@aimetering.com Thu Nov  7 06:12:34 PST 1996
Article: 78761 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Brian Smith is Kurt Stele??
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 18:26:41 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote:

I think what amazes me most about Mr. Stele's output is that it is the
work of an adult.


>Allan Matthews (amatthews@cybercom.net) wrote:
>: In article <55m0m3$3o2@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
>: >Mr. Smith is one person. He uses two userids. Nizkor has not
>: >said otherwise. Poor Mr. Smith... still has reading
>: >comprehension problems.
>: 
>: Where is your proof that Mr. Smith and Mr. Stele are the same person? 
>
>Mr. Smith screwed up and signed a post from his Smith userid with
>the Kurt Stele handle (see below).  How he can still claim not to
>be Kurt Stele is beyond me, but Nazis never seem to have any problem
>with a lie, no matter how ridiculous.
>
>Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>Subject:      Re: DAVID IRVING to tour Australia????
>From:         kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele)
>Date:         1996/10/19
>Message-Id:   <54baaa$eb3@is05.micron.net>
>References:   <549p8a$b4l@is05.micron.net> <549ulb$rdp@news.enter.net>
>Organization: Micron
>Reply-To:     kurtstel@micron.net
>Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism
>
>
>yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>   kurtstel@micron.net (Kurt Stele) writes:
>>>  yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>
>>>  Wrong.  They were not members of the NA.  You are a lying sack of 
>shit as usual.
>
>>       That's strange.  They filed a motion with the Court of Common 
>Pleas of 
>>Lehigh County swearing, under oath, that they were.
>
>>       --YFE
>
>They were not NA members nor have they ever been you lying scum-sucking 
>dirtbag. You are
>bluffing sack of shit, a Jew AND a lawyer, the worst of the worst. 
>
>Brian Smith
>
>



From mike@aimetering.com Fri Nov  8 10:57:25 PST 1996
Article: 78810 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stock.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!zilker.net!usenet
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More stupidity from the lips of Hardwire.
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 18:41:33 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Hardwire  wrote:

>
>And... I don't HAVE to prove harassment... 
>
>I'm just here to annoy you.
>

Good. Harrass each other but take somewhere else. The name of this
conference is alt.revisionism. It isn't alt.personal.revenge or
anything like that. If you have something to offer concerning the
Holocaust and its denial by so-called revisionists then present it.
Not that it matters to you, but I'll soon simply killfile your
address.




From mike@aimetering.com Fri Nov  8 10:57:26 PST 1996
Article: 78901 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Big brother Mcvay is watching
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 17:05:10 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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intphase@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:

I guess such stuff really deals with the facts pertaining to the
holocaust. It is an example of an obvious hater who has completely run
out of intelligent and even unintelligent argument. What's left folks?
Personal attacks. 



>KEN MCVAY - A PROFILE
>
>Information provided by the Edmonton Journal (a supporter)
>
>He appears as an scruffy aging hippy.  At 55 he still can't manage a 
>decent haircut.  The pony tail is just plain ugly.
>He served as a marine - they couldn't stand him.
>He served as a policeman - they couldn't stand him.
>He left the United States - they couldn't stand him.
>He entered Canada -  We will take anything won't we?
>We accept criminals, aids carriers and any other garbage.
>
>His computer consulting business failed.  While unemployed he then 
>discovered the wonders of fighting what he thinks is racism.  He is 
>allegedly is employed by something called Nizkor (Hebrew for We 
>Remember).  This group is largely funded by Jewish groups.  So it seems
>he "works" for a people that believe they are the chosen people -- and 
>then he has the gall to call many detractors racists.
>
>He has a Stanford University computer program that allows him to scour 
>the newsgroups for nasty messages.  So playing God and doing his big 
>brother act (We are watching you) for 16 hours a day, he gets to play!  
>The rest of us have to have real jobs to feed our families.
>
>



From mike@aimetering.com Fri Nov  8 10:57:27 PST 1996
Article: 78902 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stele's amazing recall of my posts from months ago...
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 17:31:07 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 96
Message-ID: <328469b5.76088367@news.zilker.net>
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Kimberley Ahlf  wrote:

>On Thu, 7 Nov 1996, Kurt Stele wrote:
>
>> Citing the "primary source" doesn't solve the problem, Mrs. Ahlf.  
>

Primary means that it is original to the time and free of pending
bias. Whether Hell's document is primary or not is debateable Mr.
Smith, but the most telling impression here of your evasions is that
you know nothing about it and did no research on it. You simply
dismissed the statement out of hand. Hand you done a little research
(there was a prior discussion in this group on this very same source)
you would have found out some interesting details about this Hitler
interview with the reporter Hell.

>>You demand evidence, you get evidence.  You demand citations, you
>>get citations.  Still you 'deny' the evidence, you do not contradict it
>>with evidence and citations of your own.  You have proven yourself capable
>>of denying, but not debating.
>

Yes, he does Ms. Ahlf. First you need to find out what evidence he
will except as evidence. Even Mr. Raven fails to answer that question.
so has Mr. Bradley Smith. I think this lack of integrity is extremely
improtant when you consider what they are about.

>    From "The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, April 1922 - August 1939,"
>  Norman H. Baynes (editor), London, 1942, volume 1, page 741, text
>  taken from the authorized English translation published in pamphlet
>  form, Berlin, in February 1939.  Quoted in "Auschwitz and the
>  Allies," by Martin Gilbert, Holt Rinehart and Winston, New York,
>  1981, page 13.
>
>
>> Eyewitness testmony solves nothing because it contradcts
>> other statements and actions by Hitler.

I note that Mr. Smith fails to provide us with such contradictions. I
think that it is obvious that he really doesn't know anything at all
about the subject at hand. Obtuseness seems to be his intent.

>>  Yet the first thing Hitler did
>> when he came to power was to begin negotiating with Jews to help them
>> emigrate to Palestine or Madascar.

No, Mr. Smith. Before that the 1935 laws came about. He and his party
wanted to make them WANT to leave.

>> >> 
>> >> Always "eyewitness testimony" testimony is given.  Never a credible
>> >> document provided.
>> 

What is a credible document, Mr. Smith?

[snip]

>> Instead you produce the most unreliable form of evidence possible:  
>> eyewitness testimony.  Eyewitness testimony is trumped by physical
>> evidence or lack thereof.
>

I guess this is because Mr. Smith says so. What physical evidence is
there of the Gettysburg Address? How do we know what President Lincoln
said? Maybe the speech was never given.

>> >> Anyone can fabricate quotes, Mrs. Ahlf.  Please provide the documentary
>> >> paper trail.  I'm sure it will be no problem for you.
>> 

Really? What is a paper trail, Mr. Smith? Are the reports of speeches
heard by Ernst Hanfstaengl good enough for you? He was there. What of
the reports of what Eichmann heard Hitler say? What of the newspaper
coverage from 1919 through 1933 that report Hitler speeches. What of
the speeches of Himmler and Goebbels? What of these radio speeches of
these folks? Seems like you have a lot of stuff to dismiss.

>
>> If Hitler's intent was extermination of jews and enslavement and
>> destruction of other races than surely this would appear in a credible
>> document written BY Hitler.  Please produce ONE such document.
>

What will you accept, Mr. Smith? We have the notes from his early
speeches. would those be good enough? After all, they are in his hand.
Is it your habit to demand something and then when it is presented to
dismiss it as _not good enough_? If so, I haven't the time to provide
anything for your closed mind.

[snipped the silly tirades on the Soviets and besides the issue stuff]







From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 13 06:27:41 PST 1996
Article: 79180 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!pacifier!news.rain.net!nntp.iccom.com!news.he.net!news.dra.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!world!zilker.net!usenet
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviets were fighting Hitler in 1956 in Hungary? [David Irving]
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:12:24 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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ehrlich606@aol.com wrote:

>>Indeed such thinking as Irving gives vent to is "unhealthy and wrong."
>>And it is as deceitful of him to attempt to whitewash Hitler and the
>>Nazis actions (by blaming the Jews) as it is of you to attempt to
>>whitewash Irving (by blaming those who remind the world that -
>>regardless of his "expertise"  - Irving is _not_ an honest historian.)
>>
>
>Well, I think you are engaging in precisely the kind of of simplistic
>analysis I deplore when you say that Irving *blames the Jews*.  What page
>is _that_ on?
>

Rather than attack Hilary personally, you could have simply asked for
the reference she has in mind. BTW, it seems that the recent speeches
of Mr. Irving suggest that he is the focus of some world-wide
conspiracy. I think that he exaggerates his importance to the world.

>>
>>And I see you are back to . Are we
>>to be treated to another round of lectures on the contribution of
>>class and economics, Ehrlich?
>
>No, I don't have the time to prepare the arguments with the level of
>detail which Mike

I'm so blessed to be remembered. Yes, you do get caught when you deal
with actual historical materials. 

> would like to see, but OTOH I am persuaded of the
>thesis, so I will let it alone.  But I recently obtained Dubnow's *History
>of the Jews in Russia and Poland from Earliest Times* and I will follow on
>when I have something to add.
>

Oh, joy. Remember that the focus here is 1933-1945. We are primarily
concerned with the Germans and the Holocaust. 

>_By the way_, I would note that I am being accused either of (a) not
>discussing the details, or (b) discussing the details, which means, that
>no matter what I do I am going to be criticized.

You poor dear. :-( Life is so hard on these self-percieved
intellectuals. I think that if you handled sources in a non-biased way
and were able to present a coordinated argument you might do better. I
think that if you did that you would find yourself falling into the
valid history camp and not so much in the denier camp.  ;-)

>  There are two things to
>say here.  I am not here to persuade you, nor even the phantom lurkers. I
>am here -- not very often these days -- to express what is on my mind.  It
>is I think rather presumptuous to expect anything otherwise.  
>

What makes you so important that I or anyone else would care what is
on your mind?

>>Really?!  How fascinating, Ehrlich.  This of course explains your
>>lengthy discourses on whether the Zyclon pellets were blue or mauve or
>>perhaps your "contributions" to understanding Nyiszli - to name but a
>>few examples.
>
>Precisely because after setting the structure that I had in mind I started
>reading some of this literature for the first time in 30 years.  Nyiszli
>came first, and I was amazed at how inaccurate he was.

Overall, how inaccurrate was he? How does he compare with other
written memoirs from survivors? How well do certain descriptions match
others who were in a similiar position? Are there comparisons between
his memoirs and Höss? Are there comparisons with other individuals
such as Nazi testimonies? How important are his errors in the over all
picture? Was he trying to recall that which was destroyed from memory?
How good is Ehrlich with remembering images mixed with horror and
terror?

>  Please note that
>_I_ was not the one who was _insisting_ that Zyklon was blue.  Therefore
>when I found that he described it as _mauve_ I was surprised, to put it
>mildly.

I think you are protesting too much. You made a big ridiculous deal
out of it. There was a massive thread about it. People even got out
their thesauruses(?) and presented you with the fact that mauve could
be various shades of purple, violet, blue, and gray mixed in various
forms. 

> What does any of this prove? Not much, actually.  Which is why
>I did not pursue it.
>

You didn't pursue it because it was becoming ridiculous.

>>
>>Or are we to take your exhortation to "let them go" as your
>>rationalization for the countless dangling threads you have left
>>during previous visits when you graced us with your presence?
>>
>
>Again, I am not obligated to pursue threads once I determine that they are
>cold, unproductive, reduced to trolling, irrelevant, or not edifying.  And
>again, I think it rather presumptuous that you would expect otherwise.  
>

This must be the reason why there were so many two post threads.
Ehrlich would make a point and then get questioned on it and then fail
to respond. Uh huh, sure, Ehrlich606.

[snip the fact that historians disagree on the exact numbers murdered
at Auschwitz. ]

[snip ]

>
>OK, I am well aware that this is the $64,000 question.  I don't agree with
>all of Matt's rhetoric, nor do I agree with his namecalling.  At the same
>time, I don't agree with it when it comes from Mark Van Alstine, Gord
>McFee, or Yale Edeiken, either.  The nature of the polarization on this
>board is such that when Matt has gotten into that mode, he uses
>anti-Jewish epithets.  But my experience is that the use of anti-Jewish
>epithets does not an anti-semite make, much less a dangerous person. 

I'm sorry. But using anti-Semitic remarks wouldn't cross _my_ mind as
a valid part of an argument. Frankly, I only since learned what this
hatred was about over the past 3 years and I learned it first hand
>from  people like Matt Giwer and others. No, Ehrlich, it takes a
certain bent of mind to even contemplate using such epithets as part
of an historical discussion.

[snipped the wasted effort on the admiration of a total waste of time]




From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 13 06:27:41 PST 1996
Article: 79259 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: David Irving blaming the Holocaust on Jews: page numbers for Ehrlich
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:22:28 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

>
>Do you think that context has any bearing on a discussion?  Think
>about it - and ask yourself just who _is_ engaging in "precisely the
>kind of simplistic analysis" you claim to deplore.
>

I'm confused. I thought he didn't have time for the indepth
discussion. Now he doesn't want the simplistic!!! slap me silly.

>First, from an overview entitled "Encountering Holocaust Denial"
>http://www.publiceye.org/holodeni.html
>
>
>
>	Within Holocaust revisionism that involves a strain of anti-Jewish
>bigotry, there are three distinct schools of thought. These can be
>described as: "It happened, but far from the extent to which they say
>it did"; "It happened, but other groups suffered just as much as the
>Jews"; and "It didn't happen at all." 
>
>	The first school, when it is taken seriously at all in academia, is
>considered to be of questionable credibility by most scholars; members
>of this school go to great lengths to downplay the Holocaust's
>historical significance or imply that the impact and extent of the
>Holocaust have been magnified to accomplish particular ends, such as
>justification of US aid to Israel or aid to Jewish refugees from the
>former USSR. David Irving, author of a number of books on World War
>II, the accuracy of which are consistently challenged, could be
>considered a member of this school, although he sometimes drifts into
>the more nasty schools of Holocaust revisionism. 
>
>
>
>And now some words "from the horse's mouth,"  so to speak -
>
>From _Nazism_ When history is written by bad men By Jacob Heilbrunn
>The New Republic [The Globe and Mail, Saturday, Oct. 19/96 Page D5]
>Heilbrunn is reporting on his experience during a luncheon in Irving's
>honour:
>
>
>
>	During a lull in the conversation, I asked Mr. Iriving about a comment
>he'd made earlier:  that critics saw the message of his new books as,
>in Thomas McCormack's words, "the Jews brought it on themselves."  Mr.
>Irving paused.  The first boycott of Jewish-owned businesses was
>preceded, he explained, "by a Jewish declaration of war on Germany.
>The Nazis were simply retaliating."  Anyway, he added in a mocking
>tone, Goebbels called the boycott for April 1, which was the Jewish
>Sabbath.  He was simply trying to get them to obey their own faith.
>
>
>
>[more excerpts from the above article are available from Deja News in
>my post of Oct. 19/96 "Speaking of David Iriving"]
>
>I did not tape the "appearance" of Irving on a Vancouver radio station
>call-in program on March 18, 1996.  However, I listened _very_
>carefully.  The experience was such that I felt (and still do) that
>Irving's ignominious diatribes made the proverbial "snake-oil
>salesman" seem a veritable saint in comparison.  
>
>I doubt that I have ever heard such an outpouring of calculated,
>self-serving, "blame the Jews" rhetoric in my entire life.  I lost
>track of the number of his unsubstantiated anti-Jewish allusions and
>epithets (which you, Ehrlich, from the lofty perch of your "impressive
>intellect and knowledge" - not to mention your superior wisdom and
>experience - deem not to be anti-Semitic), and euphemisms.
>
>But don't take my word for it, whatever you do!  Check the transcript
>from an Australian radio interview with Irving in July, 1995.   This
>transcript is available on Nizkor.
>
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/australia/2gb-transcript-0795..html
>
>But the following excerpt will serve as an example (although perhaps
>it is too "subtle" for Ehrlich's *demanding* "standards"):
>
>
>
>Casey [Interviewer hro]:
>
>It's like your guilty or you're not guilty, you're pregnant. You can't
>be a little bit pregnant, you've got to be pregnant or not pregnant.
>What you've said to me now is that you would as high as four million
>then all the Jews have said about the Holocaust is true and, indeed,
>that's a horrible figure but I've never heard it said that David
>Irving would agree to four million people being killed in the
>Holocaust. That, to me, for you to say it, is quite amazing. 
>
>Irving:
>
>It depends on definitions. It depends on what we mean by that ugly
>word Holocaust and I think that the Jewish community were very clever
>in inventing that word round about 1970, incidentally. They've
>invented the word but they refuse to define what they mean by it. 
>
>
>
>Posted/e-mailed to Ehrlich606 (who has indicated that he is taking yet
>another respite from gracing us with his wisdom, and who is requested
>to respond publicly - if he deigns to respond at all.)
>
>hro
>=======================
>Hilary Ostrov
>e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
>http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
>Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/
>



From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 13 06:27:42 PST 1996
Article: 79275 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!zilker.net!usenet
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 13:14:58 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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ceacaa@aol.com wrote:

>           TREBLINKA VS. AUSCHWITZ
>     When the Holocaust myth was first forming
>Auschwitz was thought to have claimed 4,000,000
>victims while Treblinka was thought to have claimed
>1,000,000.

Here we go with this silly game, and by the way, Ceacca refusing to
answer questions. If one takes murdered Jews _alone_ one has Kulmhof
(at 150,000), Sobibor (at 200,000), Belzec ( at 550,000), Treblinka
(at 750,000), and Auschwitz (at 1.3 million) at these camps.
Historians have struggled over coming up with numbers of Jewish people
murdered because, well, there were so darn many missing after the war.
Surviviors new their relatives borded these trains to the above camps
and never were seen again. Polish farmers saw loaded trains go in and
empty trains go out. Four million folks may have died at Auschwitz,
but only 1.3 million of those were _Jewish_.  There is no myth that
people were murdered there. Eichmann saw it. Höss testified to it and
admitted it. The list can be legion here with the Nazi witnesses, but
why waste time with you when it comes to details.  

I think you are the myth. You are the ghost here fears posting under
his own name. You are the myth that refuses to stand up be counted for
your beliefs. There is no Ceacca.

>    The point here is that, theft of victims personal
>property aside, Mr. VanAlstine's  concept of 
>"economies of scale" does NOT seem to apply to the
>present day stories of Treblinka and Auschwitz/Birkenau
>as killing centers.  The Treblinka method was clearly
>more economic.
>

Prove it.



From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 13 06:27:43 PST 1996
Article: 79291 of alt.revisionism
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961108: Corrections and Additions
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:07:49 GMT
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:79291 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3083

zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

>*       Secondly, the Nizkor (updated) URL is http://www.nizkor.org/  I
>gave you the old one, http://www.almanac.bc.ca/  I tried it after Jamie
>McCarthy complained, and it still works fine, but it is important to Jamie
>that I correct this so you can find his new site to check what is posted.
>

It is faster and serves the audience much better.

>Also, the Cracow (I called it Krakow) Report is available at Nizkor at
>http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/polish/institute-for-forensic-research/ It
>is a refutation of the Leuchter Report.  It basically agrees with the
>Leuchter findings, but draws from these findings a different conclusion.
>

Oh? Specifically in ways does this report _agree_ with Leuchter. I'm
sure you do not mind being specific since you made the statements.
Then we can discuss why they came up with different conclusions and
how _exactly_ they did this.




From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 13 06:27:44 PST 1996
Article: 79309 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The SRRS? It's time to become adults.
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 18:41:55 GMT
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justin49@nwlink.com (justin) wrote:

posted/emailed.

I do not respond any longer to email from people who fail to identify
who they really are.  msc

>
>> 
>> >Too bad you did not read there whole article.

I read the whole darn thing, justin49.

> If you did, you would
>> >understand that they are simply students who wish to study both sides.
>> >They feel that it is the job of historians to debate the issues, and for
>> >students to support their right to free speech.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, I did read their (note spelling) whole article, and
>> understood quite well that they were interested in nothing of the 
>> sort. They were interested in defaming Nizkor and Jamie McCarthy.
>
>Actually, they were not defaming Nizkor, or Jamie McCarthy. 

Really? Defame is a term that means to damage or the reputation or
character by slander or libel.


>We do not believe his motives are sincere,

SRRS claims that Mr. McCarthy is not sincere. What does this mean?
This means that what Mr. McCarthy says is feigned or not genuine. This
suggests that Mr.McCarthy is not honest and is deceptive. It could
also mean that Mr. McCarthy is a hypocrite or has a pretense. This is
a personal attack that was unwarranted by the question asked SRRS.
This attacks the character of Mr. McCarthy. 

> yet we will use this 
>opportunity to explain how easy it is to identify the faulty logic and 
>outright lies that Nizkor uses.

This is more directed the group Nizkor and is thus also an example of
defamation under the description of the term offered above.

>Do you really
>think a group of students could possibly give justice to the revisionist
>arguments?

Of course. Students  making  these  claims  should have the ability,
like any other student of history,  to back them up. In fact college
students are close to enormous resources ( called libraries) that can
be used to back up their claims. SRRS implies as much in their name. 

> I say that it is the job of Revisionists and Exterminationists
>to argue the fine points of the Holocaust story. It is the job of students
>to study BOTH sides,

There isn't really another side. There isn't enough data to support
another side realistically. College students should be intelligent
enough to see this. The fact that justin49 doesn't answer any of the
spefics of the original post is very telling.

> and to stand up for intellectual and academic
>freedom.

No one is denying students academic freedom. In fact, I call on
students to back up their claims with substantiation in the same
manner I call on the "revisionists" to do so. The revisionists have
run away from these kind of demands. 

> The students involved with the SRRS do not have the resources, or
>time to debate such issues.

But students have the time to build a _resource site_ and malign
people and groups they are unfamiliar with. 

> I guess in your eyes, anyone who points out
>things they have noticed on the Nizkor homepage is defaming them. I think
>they have raised some valid points.
>

They failed to prove them and so far the only response has been from a
ghost like yourself who hides under a fake name. This is telling in
the convictions you have in your positions.





From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 13 06:27:45 PST 1996
Article: 79315 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!zilker.net!usenet
From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stele. Check it out!
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:03:51 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>
>We suggest you read the following book below for
>more information on this.  In short, the diary
>has been verified that Anne was the author of
>her diary.  
>
>
>Author:       Frank, Anne, 1929-1945.
>Unif. Title:  [Achterhuis. English.].
>Title:        The diary of Anne Frank : the critical, edition / 

Well, you are assuming that Mr. Stele wants to read the stuff that
will invalidate his comfort zones. Others do appreciate the
information, however.




From mike@aimetering.com Fri Nov 15 06:32:19 PST 1996
Article: 79555 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Soviets were fighting Hitler in 1956 in Hungary?
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:41:51 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
Lines: 35
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <52805555252598@infinity.c2.net>, rcgraves@ix.netcom.com (Rich
>Graves) writes:
>
>>
>>To put it more plainly, I do not believe for a second that either of you
>>have any serious interest in Hungary, 1956. Nor did Irving. Do either of
>>you seriously believe that the Irving quote selected by Judith has even a
>>grain of literal truth to it?
>>
>>
>
>You know, if you were not such a moralistic jerk you

Mr. Ehrlich has totally accepted the denier style of argument.

>They are quite a proud people.  It's a beautiful thing to see.
>
>Because a lot of Hungarians are at least partly ethnically Jewish they

Ethnically Jewish? 

> They really hate the Russians.
>

What has this to do with the Holocaust?

>
>I don't know what Judith was getting at in her post, but it sounded to me
>like she was just remembering.

1933-1945. 1956 is blather.




From mike@aimetering.com Fri Nov 15 06:32:19 PST 1996
Article: 79602 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 14:23:35 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

posted/emailed

>In article <19961109051800.AAA09877@ladder01.news.aol.com>, ceacaa@aol.com
>wrote:

>> Any significant property of deported Jews was to 
>> be "sequestered".  Sequestion is a form of trust.
>

Mark, where did this "sequestered" come from to be placed in quotes? I
realize you didn't do it, but Mr. Allen prefers not to answer my
questions.

>sequester vt. 1 to set off or apart; seperate; segragate; often to
>segragate or isolate (the jury) during a trial 2 to takw and hold
>(property) by judicial authority, for safekeeping or as a security until a
>legal dispute is resolved 3 to take over; confiscate, seize, esp. by
>authority 4 to withdraw; seclude: often used reflexively
>
>_Webster's New World Dictionary_ (Third College Edition). 
>
>Clearly, Mr. Allen, you have overlooked the more appropriate definition
>given the context that Jewish property was _confiscated_ by the Nazis and
>never ligated over and never returned. 
>

I'd like to know about the "Aryan" property they "sequestered." I
recall a German lady tell me that they would bury their silverware and
dishes in their gardens so the SS wouldn't steal it. She didn't use
the word "sequestered. "

>
>> The whole German legal system relating to
>> sequestered property was one of trust.  
>
>Why was Jewish property in "trust," Mr. Allen? What _legal disputes_,
>specifically were under litigation by Jews from Germany, Poland, Belguium,
>Denmark, etc. against the Nazi government concerning this Jewish
>property?  
>

I'm interested in where all this law is being found and what Mr.
Allen's sources are.

>
>> Certain debts and expenses were to be paid out but
>> the system presumed that the remainder would
>> be returned to its owners.
>
>What debts and expenses where these, specifically, Mr. Allen? Why where
>these debts "incurred" in the first place?  Why did the Nazis _confiscate_
>Jewish assets and never it to its rightful owners? 
>

Heck, where is this "system" documented for Mr. Allen.

>> Your quote shows that the property was put
>> in trust and managed.  
>
>Bullshit, Mr. Allen. All that has been shown is that you are dishonest in
>the extreme.

 This has always been an assumed given where Mr. Allen is
concerned.

>
>> Other reports show that some was returned.
>
>Sources please?

Thanks for asking, but I don't get we'll get much in the way of
specifics.

> How much of the confiscated Jewish assets was returned to
>the righful owners or their heirs? How much was not? 
>



From mike@aimetering.com Sat Nov 16 06:57:49 PST 1996
Article: 79622 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961105: On how to get involved
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:51:35 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:79622 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:3094

zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

>
>November 5, 1996
>
>
>I get a lot of free and often excellent advice on how to do things better -
>but please just realize we cannot win this struggle on our own.  The more
>of you decide to get involved, the stronger we will be!
>

It shouldn't be much of a struggle. If you had the substantiation and
history to back up your claims there would hardly be a struggle. The
fact that you do not is what makes it a struggle. The fact that you do
not also makes it a mental struggle which must be tiring. 

[snip]

>Here is what can be found on our website as your guide:
>
>"People associated with, and sympathetic to, Ernst Zundel's struggle to
>rehabilitate the falsely accused and politically victimized German nation

Such a task you choose to undertake. This is especially true since no
one is victimizing the German _nation_. 

>  We don't  require a racialist,
>Christian or national-socialist mindset or a specific political
>orientation.
>

You ought to require an historical understanding as a requirement.
This is something that you seem to lack. So, I guess, you are left
with the scraps of humanity that you can get. In you case,  Nazi UFOs
seem to be a belief requirement.

>We simply ask that you respect our right to think, say and do what we like,

As long as it is the truth. The exchange of ideas should be discussed
using verifiable facts and not the distortions of facts. Otherwise one
side is arguing a fiction. There is no real debate there.

>to let us be who we are and what we represent, and to let us have our
>rightful place in the community of nations.
>

What is this? Racists and anti-Semites. No one is saying that you
folks should be otherwise. No one here is going to change your minds
or the conditions in which you have placed yourselves.

>We ask that you assist us systematically if you are so inclined.  We
>appreciate all the help we can get!  Even if you live in Patagonia or
>swelter in the Equator belt - join us if you like what we do.
>

Swelter? Swelter? Such a perjorative word to use. I would have used
another word. Oh, well.

>If you give us your support, we promise that we will enrich your lives in
>ways you could not ever have imagined.  There's nothing as rewarding for
>the soul as following the "Search for Truth," wherever it may lead.  We now
>live in the "Age of Lies" of which past seers and great thinkers, such as
>the Indian Aryan, Savitri Devi, spoke in her brilliant treatise, "The
>Lightning and the Sun."
>

How about just a good back massage?

>We want to usher in the "Age of Truth" - not with a "New World Order", but
>with a "True World Order".
>

LOL!

>In as many as 41 countries, there are many like you "in the making" - a
>growing network of "Zundelists."   These are quiet, diligent and highly
>disciplined and dedicated people from all walks of life - rich and poor,
>young and old, with degrees or of blue collar background, housewives and
>farmers and students and even former "enemies" who fought in World War II -
>good people everywhere who feel pride in the achievements of Western
>Civilization and Thought and who become our committed champions and
>supporters.
>

Get 'em while they ar young and angry right, Ingrid?

[snip]

[snipped all this amazing work being done that is never seen.]

>Won't you join us and lend us your support and talent?
>

Sounds like you are doing fine.

>We promise you that your respect for us will grow.  You will get to know us
>better and understand what we are all about - not people who hate other
>races but people who dearly love their own. 

This is a classic. You are not people who hate other races but dearly
love their own [race]. I put the word in their to complete your point.
I guess this implies that those not of your race are less "loved" and
therefore there must be something you guys dislike. There must be
something you hate about other races. What is your _race_ btw, and
what makes you so special?

>THIS IS A STRUGGLE NOT FOR LAND OR POWER OR POSSESSION BUT FOR THE MIND OF
>MAN.  WILL WE BE SLAVES - OR FREE?
>

O let me hate and preach violence in total freedom! O let me lie and
distort without anyone telling me I'm incorrect! 

>How can you help?

I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. Thanks.

>5.  We need translators in as many languages as possible for our
>introductory "Holocaust 101" document.  It is about 20 pages long.
>

Preferably if you are totally ignorant of the historical method. 




From mike@aimetering.com Tue Nov 19 06:42:57 PST 1996
Article: 80109 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A matter of links
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:38:54 GMT
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stealth@noc.tor.hookup.net (Lorraine Messer) wrote:

>I spent some time yesterday checking various web sites - on both "sides" of the issue - and I noticed something I thought curious...
>
>Nizkor's "Other Sites" pages, although containing lots of outdated links, seemed to show a pretty comprehensive 
>attempt to provide as many links as possible to denial sites... those that were out of date on Nizkor were available through
>the "Hatewatch" site, which was prominently linked. In short, Nizkor made it possible for me to find everyone I wanted to find.
>
>Then I visited the ADL and the Simon Wiesenthal Center - no links. Ditto the United States Holocaust Museum... the same was not true of the denial sites,
>althought there does appear to be an aversion to letting their visitors
>know that Nizkor exists.. the exception of note was the Zundel site.
>
>What are all these organizations afraid of?
>

The ADL, SWC, USHM have a different history, purpose, and charter from
the Nizkor site. I'm not even sure if Nizkor has a charter now that I
think on it. 

Your sentence construction confuses me concerning how the Zundel site
is an exception.

>>I personally urge every human being on the planet to visit these
>>web sites.  Nothing we say here could possibly make a more 
>>convincing case against Holocaust denial.
>>
>>Bill
>
>



From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 20 06:01:49 PST 1996
Article: 80487 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust Almanac: Lidice
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:00:09 GMT
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olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>In article <3286551a.244758@news.txdirect.net>, Harry W. Mazal OBE wrote:
>>How, one might ask, does Mr. Kreiburg view and  justify the Nazi
>>atrocities that took place in Lidice?  That is more to the point.
>>
> I am not trying to justify any *real* atrocities committed by the germans 
>during WW2. I was just pointing out that the German atrocities in Lidice 
>and Oradour were peanuts in comparison to the much bigger Allied atrocities 
>in Dresden (132,000), Hamburg (80,000), Hiroshima (70,000), and 
>Nagasaki (24,000). 
>

I don't see one individual denying that Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima,
or Nagasaki were bombed. Do you? 

The bombing of Japan has nothing to do with the facts of the
Holocaust. Neither does the Bombing of Dresden or Hamburg. This is an
attempt by deniers, like yourself, to shift the argument. 




From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 20 06:32:15 PST 1996
Article: 80587 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: **************** G I W E R   R U L E S  ***************************************************
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 18:06:45 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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Giwer is now:
email@add.ress (Chicken-Hearted Matt Giwer) wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Nov 1996 21:33:57 +0000, Dene Bebbington
> wrote:
>

Giwer  was:
>>prince  wrote:

Writing to a real person:
>>>On Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:00:09 +0000, Dene Bebbington
>>> wrote:
>>>

Giwer was:
>>>>* * <*@*.*> wrote:
>
>	If you would take a look at the history of it, altl.revisionism was
>created as a result of revisionists attempting to discuss it in other
>conferences.  Alt.revisionism is the resulting conference for
>revisionism to be discussed.  
>

What this unintelligent individual is trying to say is that only
revisionism and the discussion of the same is to be posted here. I
submit that it is. Revisionism is when intelligent persons suggest a
revision of documented history. Then other persons can deal with this
suggested revision by refuting or supporting it. This is what is being
done here to some degree.

What is happening though, is a distortion of the basic understanding
of the term as understood by historians and students of history alike.
This individual wants people to think that  the "revisionism" of the
Holocaust discussed here is true historical revisionism when it isn't.
So this individual feels that since these "revisionists" can't seem to
meet the criteria they have burdened themselves with then those who
disagree have no place here. IOW this individual seeks no discussion
of history but rather a discussion of a fantasy or a fiction that
there was no holocaust at all. Sounds like a coward's game.




From mike@aimetering.com Wed Nov 20 07:08:02 PST 1996
Article: 3094 of alt.fan.ernst-zundel
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: 961105: On how to get involved
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 13:51:35 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote:

>
>November 5, 1996
>
>
>I get a lot of free and often excellent advice on how to do things better -
>but please just realize we cannot win this struggle on our own.  The more
>of you decide to get involved, the stronger we will be!
>

It shouldn't be much of a struggle. If you had the substantiation and
history to back up your claims there would hardly be a struggle. The
fact that you do not is what makes it a struggle. The fact that you do
not also makes it a mental struggle which must be tiring. 

[snip]

>Here is what can be found on our website as your guide:
>
>"People associated with, and sympathetic to, Ernst Zundel's struggle to
>rehabilitate the falsely accused and politically victimized German nation

Such a task you choose to undertake. This is especially true since no
one is victimizing the German _nation_. 

>  We don't  require a racialist,
>Christian or national-socialist mindset or a specific political
>orientation.
>

You ought to require an historical understanding as a requirement.
This is something that you seem to lack. So, I guess, you are left
with the scraps of humanity that you can get. In you case,  Nazi UFOs
seem to be a belief requirement.

>We simply ask that you respect our right to think, say and do what we like,

As long as it is the truth. The exchange of ideas should be discussed
using verifiable facts and not the distortions of facts. Otherwise one
side is arguing a fiction. There is no real debate there.

>to let us be who we are and what we represent, and to let us have our
>rightful place in the community of nations.
>

What is this? Racists and anti-Semites. No one is saying that you
folks should be otherwise. No one here is going to change your minds
or the conditions in which you have placed yourselves.

>We ask that you assist us systematically if you are so inclined.  We
>appreciate all the help we can get!  Even if you live in Patagonia or
>swelter in the Equator belt - join us if you like what we do.
>

Swelter? Swelter? Such a perjorative word to use. I would have used
another word. Oh, well.

>If you give us your support, we promise that we will enrich your lives in
>ways you could not ever have imagined.  There's nothing as rewarding for
>the soul as following the "Search for Truth," wherever it may lead.  We now
>live in the "Age of Lies" of which past seers and great thinkers, such as
>the Indian Aryan, Savitri Devi, spoke in her brilliant treatise, "The
>Lightning and the Sun."
>

How about just a good back massage?

>We want to usher in the "Age of Truth" - not with a "New World Order", but
>with a "True World Order".
>

LOL!

>In as many as 41 countries, there are many like you "in the making" - a
>growing network of "Zundelists."   These are quiet, diligent and highly
>disciplined and dedicated people from all walks of life - rich and poor,
>young and old, with degrees or of blue collar background, housewives and
>farmers and students and even former "enemies" who fought in World War II -
>good people everywhere who feel pride in the achievements of Western
>Civilization and Thought and who become our committed champions and
>supporters.
>

Get 'em while they ar young and angry right, Ingrid?

[snip]

[snipped all this amazing work being done that is never seen.]

>Won't you join us and lend us your support and talent?
>

Sounds like you are doing fine.

>We promise you that your respect for us will grow.  You will get to know us
>better and understand what we are all about - not people who hate other
>races but people who dearly love their own. 

This is a classic. You are not people who hate other races but dearly
love their own [race]. I put the word in their to complete your point.
I guess this implies that those not of your race are less "loved" and
therefore there must be something you guys dislike. There must be
something you hate about other races. What is your _race_ btw, and
what makes you so special?

>THIS IS A STRUGGLE NOT FOR LAND OR POWER OR POSSESSION BUT FOR THE MIND OF
>MAN.  WILL WE BE SLAVES - OR FREE?
>

O let me hate and preach violence in total freedom! O let me lie and
distort without anyone telling me I'm incorrect! 

>How can you help?

I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. Thanks.

>5.  We need translators in as many languages as possible for our
>introductory "Holocaust 101" document.  It is about 20 pages long.
>

Preferably if you are totally ignorant of the historical method. 




From mike@aimetering.com Mon Nov 25 06:22:19 PST 1996
Article: 80690 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 14:04:57 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>Are you asking me or telling me?  What I am trying to do is see if
>any of you have the same concern over what happened to the
>Germans as compared with what happened to the Jews.  Simple
>enough?

War is a horrible thing. Since no one is denying that Germans were not
bombed, we haven't an issue there. Do I have concern for the German
civilians who were bombed or the English civilians who were bombed?
Sure. It would be a terrible way to live. There is no comparison with
the German civilians and the Jews. For the Jews  and other specified
groups the future  was inevitable. They were selected and by law
treated in a special fashion. But this is what you and your cohorts
are denying.

posted & emailed






From mike@aimetering.com Mon Nov 25 06:22:20 PST 1996
Article: 81123 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Himmler Talks About the Jews, II
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 13:59:34 GMT
Organization: Zilker Internet Park, Inc.
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

Something is back I see. Since we aren't really sure what sex or age
we are dealing with now, I'll assume young and ignorant. Using sources
properly is a gift that most historians are blessed with. So this
individual needs to learn how to use them properly. Himmler and the
Germans were already putting their words into actions before Himmler
formed the words you do not suggest he didn't say. However, you quote
a passage from a notorious book that was published in 1941in New
Jersey by someone who couldn't possibly put his words into action.
Also the date strikes me as interesting. Maybe you ought to pursue the
history behind this book you quote and it's actual effect and
influence. How much influence did Mr. Kaufmann have in comparison to
Himmler? 



>>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>>  Speech by Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler at Kharkow, April 1943
>>  [Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression - Washington, U.S Govt. Print. 
>>  Off., 1946, Vol. IV, p. 572-574]
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------
>>  We have - I would say, as very consistent National Socialists,
>>  taken the question of blood as our starting point. We were the
>>  first really to solve the problem of blood by action, and in
>>  this connection, by problem of blood, we of course do not
>>  mean antisemitism. Antisemitism is exactly the same as delousing.
>>  Getting rid of lice is not a question of ideology. It is a 
>>  matter of cleanliness.
>>   
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>Compare Himmler's comments with those of the jewish publisher
>Theodore Kaufmann, who wrote:
>
>There is no longer any alternative:  Germany must perish!...This
>analagous linking of the people of Germany with savage beast 
>is no vulgar comparison.  I feel no more personal hatred for these
>people than I might feel for a herd of wild animals or a cluster of
>poisonous reptiles.....They are but beasts; they must be dealt with
>as such.......(the Germans serve as) "hypodermics through which
>the malignant bacilli of Germanism was being syringed into the 
>bloodstream....."
>
>Of course, Mr. Kaufmann really didn't MEAN what he said, did he?
>And his ideas were NEVER put into effect, were they?
>Think again, dear readers.
>
>Quotes from:  Germany Must Perish, by Theodore Kaufmann,
>N.J. 1941.



From mike@aimetering.com Mon Nov 25 06:22:21 PST 1996
Article: 81256 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.activism,alt.atheism,alt.current.events-russia
Subject: Re: agressive
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gosselin@course2.harvard.edu (Michael Gosselin) wrote:

Michael,

It is an _international_ problem.

Mike

>What I can't seem to understand is why people think the holocost didn't
>happen.  I mean, history is replete with examples of tribe killing other
>tribes.  Think of the crusades.  Think of the cold war.  Think of what
>goes on in Africa, or Tibet, or South America.  There is in the human
>condition a hard-wired response of trying to kill those who are not "like
>us".  Part of the human condition is overcoming that desire to kill those
>who are not like us.
>
>I still don't understand this idea.  Are you jealous that there are jews
>out there?  That they have adapted to America  so well?  Do you really
>believe in a superior race?  What has made "whites" superior is the
>ability to take advantage of the industry around them.  Now how that
>happened is of great historical interest.
>
>I think what bothers the revisionists most is that they don't want to
>accept responsibility for a sad chapter in human history.  Either that, or
>they are annoyed that jews have made progress in America, and are
>prominent.  Well, too bad.  That's the problem with capitalism; it's
>individualistic, and many of us in America come from cultures that do not
>reward individualism, but collectivism.  Judaic culture rewards
>individualism.
>
>So, stop your whining.  Either the holocaust happened (which I believe) or
>it didn't.  Either way, in America, you can't collectively fault the jews,
>or the catholics, or the protestants.  What gives the jews a great
>advantage is that, even though they reward individualism, they are willing
>to help out a member of their "tribe".  That's more than can be said for
>most other religions in America.
>
>
>BB (gruppenfueher@jerusalem.verycom) wrote:
>: On Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:13:54 GMT, John.Morris@UAlberta.CA (John
>: Morris) wrote:
>
>: >In <3291860a.40274744@news.gte.net>, Matt Giwer : >posting as >himmel@strasse.org (Treblinka Veggie Garden) wrote:
>: >
>: >[snip]
>: >
>: >>	As I will point out to them as well as to the holobuggers, I have
>: >>continued my agressive stance and at the moment we have only three
>: >              ^^^^^^^^
>: >>buggers still posting and the terminally bewildered Keren still
>: >>spamming.  
>: >
>: >Aggressive.
>
>: 	When all else fails, attack the spelling.
>
>: =====
>: http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html The Dark Web 
>: Pages of Zionism 
>: http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english/welcome.html Zundelsite
>: http://194.243.91.7/ISLAM/ to the light
>: http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~lpauling/ Student Revisionist Resource Site
>: http://www.eskimo.com/~ralphj/ Revisionist Productions
>: http://home1.gte.net/mgiwer/index.html Reflections upon the Holocaust
>: http://flashback.se/~rislam/ Radio Islam
>: http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/LEUCHTER/leuchtertoc.html The Leuchter Report
>: http://www.hoffman-info.com/ The Hoffman Report
>: http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/ Greg Raven's Website
>: http://www.codoh.com/irving/irving.html David Irving
>: http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (Bradley Smith) 
>: http://www.pixi.com/~bewise/ Be Wise as Serpents
>: http://www.abbc.com/aaargh/index.html  L'Association des Anciens Amateurs de Récits de Guerre et
>: d'Holocauste (also in English)  
>: http://pubweb.acns.nwu.edu/~abutz/ Arthur R. Butz 
>: http://www.air-photo.com/ Air Photo Evidence (John Ball)
>: http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html Adelaide Institute 
>
>--
>Michael Gosselin
>Harvard Extension School
>
>"No matter how deep you go, there's always another level."
>   - Bruce Coville, "The Search For Snout"



From mike@aimetering.com Mon Nov 25 06:22:22 PST 1996
Article: 81297 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Horse's Mouth
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:13:05 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com _speculates without foundation about the speech
below:

>Whether this report is accurate or not is open to question,

Really? How is this speech open to question, Mr./Master/Miss/Mrs.
rblackmore? 

>but the fact remains that the jews were far from finished
>off in Europe or anywhere else for that matter.

Finished off?! Oh, of course they weren't all murdered yet,
rblackmore. Himmler didn't halt the killing until late in 1944 so the
Germans had lots of time left to attempt completion of their goal. 

>  In fact, Jews seem to have more influence today than at any other time
>during their long and turbulent history.

How so? What percentage of the world's population is Jewish,
rblackmore?

>   schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect) writes:
>>    This is from the text of a speech by Adolf Hitler given on February 24,
>>  1943, on the Anniversary of the founding of the NSDAP. The translation was
>>  provided by the Nazis themselves, and it is quoted in an OSS report from
>>  Dr. Walter Langer to Col. William J. Donovan. The complete text of it will
>>  be available on Nizkor soon.
>   
>  I quote Hitler:
>  
>  "The same joint front of enemies we had to face in Germany now faces us
>  again as an alliance between Jewish bankers of New York, the Jewish
>  plutocratic ruling caste of London and the Jews in Moscow's Kremlin."
>  Furthermore, "Above all, this war demonstrates incontrovertibly the
>  complete identity of plutocracy and Bolshevism, as well as the eternal
>  unchanging aim of all Jews which
>  is to despoil nations and convert then into slaves."
>  
>  (OSS report says: In both of the German versions he has much more to say
>  about the Jewish menace than is included in the AP text. He is liberal in
>  his prophecies and as the war goes on, one nation after another will
>  realize the Jewish menace and)
>  
>  "...just as the German people, realizing this dangr, successfully fought
>  the Jewish enemy at home and is now about to finish them off once and for
>  all, just so other nations will become increasingly conscious of their true
>  selves as the war goes on and will finally make common cause against the
>>  race which works for the destruction of them all."
>>   
>>  Now: would one of those why deny the Holocaust please explain to me what
>>  the phrase "finish them off once and for all" means?
>>   
>>  Sure sounds to me like Hitler is bragging about the total destruction of
>>  the Jews. If so, your arguments all fall down, don't they?
>>   
>>  Sara
>>  
>>  -- 
>>  "I do not mind lying, but I hate inaccuracy."
>>                   Samuel Butler
>>  
>>  
>>>>>
>Whether this report is accurate or not is open to question,
>but the fact remains that the jews were far from finished
>off in Europe or anywhere else for that matter.  In fact, Jews
>seem to have more influence today than at any other time
>during their long and turbulent history.



From mike@aimetering.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:02 PST 1996
Article: 82096 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:30:34 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

******************************
Subject:      Re: 'Let them die, why should you care?'
From:         rblackmore@juno.com
Date:         1996/11/22
Message-Id:   <572sa3$los@juliana.sprynet.com>
References:   
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Reply-To:     rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

This individual never fails to be disturbed  by Dr. Keren’s quoting
the Herta Ehlert
statement from page 709 of the Belsen Trial. 

>   dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes:
>  Testimony of Herta Ehlert, a member of the SS unit at Belsen
>  ("The Belsen Trial", p. 709)
>  --------------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Keren quotes from page 709:
[snip]

>  I say that Kramer was responsible for the conditions, among
>  other reasons, because on one occasion when I complained of the
>  increasing death rate to Kramer he replied, "let them die, why
>  should you care?".
>  

M. Curtis:
It appears that Dr. Keren has transgressed and interfered with
Blackmore’s admiration of  Commandant Kramer of the Belsen camp.

Blackmore:
>You have this irritating habit of reposting the same old
>lies and I wonder why....you must enjoy the embarrassment
>it affords you.  Herta Ehlert has been dealt with before and
>rather decisively, I might add. 

M. Curtis:
We will look and see just how well she was dealt with by doing what
this 
individual suggests.

Blackmore:
> She was charged with crimes
>herself, and who better to blame things on than the kommandant?

M. Curtis:
Of course, they were one big happy family, were they not?

Blackmore:
>Ehlert, after investigation by yours truly, turns out to have been a
>liar as well as a thief.

M. Curtis:
Yes, it appears that she was. However what the judge and jury must
decide is when
she was lying and why. Passing off cruelties to others hardly suggests
that the cruelties
did not happen, but rather the individual on the stand wasn’t
responsible or wasn’t as 
severe as the other SS who were far worse.

Blackmore:
>  One of the peole the SS themselves would 
>have arraigned had the war not ended.  

M. Curtis:
We can only hope that Blackmore truly will elucidate the evidence
where this is coming
from.

Blackmore:
>For those interested in
>pursuing Danny Keren's distortion to the final destination-the
>Big Lie-merely type in "blackmore" or Ehlert on Deja News and
>look for the response I gave to this earlier and then decide for yourselves.

M. Curtis:
And I did this and much more. The thread under question is called
"Kramer vs Kramer-
Keren vs Blackmore" and was a side thread that fell out of a much
longer thread called
"Bill Harmon’s Question" which was never really answered. At least
Yale’s question concerning the source for the water was never
answered. But I digress. Let’s delve into this individual’s prior 
9/23/96 adventure into trial distortion and learn more about what
makes deniers tick.

*************************************
Subject:      Kramer vs Kramer-Keren vs Blackmore
From:         rblackmore@juno.com
Date:         1996/09/23
Message-Id:   <525fom$h62@juliana.sprynet.com>
Organization: Sprynet News Service
Reply-To:     rblackmore@juno.com
Newsgroups:   alt.revisionism

Blackmore:
>In a discussion concerning the guilt or innocence of Kramer, former
>commandant of Belsen, Danny Keren referred to unsupported statements
>attributed to the ex-commandant by former camp Aufseherin Herta Ehlert,
>a petty thief and bully.

M. Curtis:
I guess if one is a petty thief then one cannot tell the truth?
I guess if one is a bully then one cannot tell the truth?

Blackmore:
>  Ehlert swore that Kramer had said of the inmates
>at Belsen:  "Let them die, why should you care?"  I responded by saying that
>I did not believe her, and posted a few reasons why I didn't.

M. Curtis:
Well, the individual says that she is a liar and a petty thief and
that about sums it for Blackmore’s
argument.

Blackmore:
 >. . . The gist of my argument was that it appeared that
>Ehlert, who had been arrested and charged with crimes, did what is usually
>done by subordinates-cast the guilt and responsibility on to her superiors, in
>this case, Kramer.

M. Curtis:
In what case? You, of course, mean this instance. One page 229 of
"The Belsen
Trial" she is being questioned by her defense council. Major Munro.
After all, it is
better to let the readers know who is doing the questioning so they
can have an idea
of the context of the questions and questioner. We will go into this
further on as we 
try to put the information back in context. As much as this Herta
Ehlert is a 
disagreeable personage, she should be allowed to remain in context.

Blackmore:
>  Kramer denied having uttered these words on the witness
>stand.  I believe him, based upon the evidence which I researched, proving
>that Kramer did everything he could to improve conditions within the camp.

M. Curtis:
These words were "let them die, why should you care?" It appears that
Blackmore still hasn’t grasped the concept of convergence of evidence.
To further prove that Kramer was insensitive about the conditions in
which the prisoners were placed: 

(page 187 - Dr. Klein is cross-examined by Colonel Backhouse) 

"What did Kramer say to you when you told him about the growing  need
for water at Belsen and for the need to remove the corpses? --He told
me, "You cannot give me any orders."
	The corpses were lying all around the camp."

(page 201 - Franz Hoessler is examined by Major Munro)

"What did you do to get  food? --I went back to Kramer and saw him in
his office and asked him if he could give me some food for my
prisoners, but he said he needed all his food for his own prisoners
becuase his camp was overcrowded, that there was typhus and many other
sick people.
I told him I was glad that my prisoners were not coming into his camp
because they were not sick and they had no lice."

(page 421 - Stanislawa Starostka cross-examined by Col. Backhouse)

"Do you mean that Kramer did not soil his hands with it himself, but
if he wanted somebody killed the driver did it for him? -- I would not
say that because when Kramer was tramsferred to Belsen he killed many
people on his own initiative, especially at the time of the evacuation
which took place in 18th January when he killed all the people who
were unable to march off with the others."

(Further examples available upon request)

[snipped that which has nothing to do with Herta Ehlert]

Blackmore:
>Now, as to Ehlert, let us briefly examine how credible she is:

M. Curtis:
Let us say up front that she is credible and incredible at various
times.  What was most
interesting to this reader was her transfers to other camp duties. As
much as she tried to mitigate her cruel
treatment of other prisoners she was selected by the SS for duty that
involved higher 
pay and in places where her kind of cruelty was most tolerated.

Blackmore:
>Herta Ehlert was referred to the SS for work duty in 1939,  She served at Ravensbrueck,
>Lublin, and Auschwitz before being transferred to Belsen in 1945.

M. Curtis:
On page 235 we find Herta being questioned by the prosecution and
topic was her stint at
Ravensbrück. 

"Were not the prisoners quite regularly beaten both by Kapos and by
some of the guard?
-- In Ravensbrück you could never beat a prisoner publically. For the
slightest offense you had to make a report and they were brought in
front of the Kommandant, who asked whether they admitted the
offense they were accused of, and if they were proved guilty they were
put into detention, and if the 
offense was grave then they were put on bread and water.
   Were you sent to Lublin as a punishment because you were
considerate and reasonable to the
prisoners? -- I was too good towards them and I was caught doing
several things which were not allowed;
for example, I passed letters out of the camp, smuggled parcels in,
sent messages to relatives.
   Was Lublin a lot worse than Ravensbrück? -- Yes, the prisoners were
treated terribly there, although
in my opinion the death rate was not very high."

In the end the Judge advocate had some final questions concerning her
transfers. This is on page 241 for those who have the normally found
edition of  "The Belsen Trial."

   "By the Judge Advocate—Ehlert, when you were called up in 1939 to
join the S.S., what rank did you hold then? -- Aufseherin.
   If you ever had been promoted in the S.S., what would have been the
next rank? --The title was always the same, Aufseherin, but you
received a bar or a circle or something like that on your sleeve.
   Did you always get the same pay while you were serving in the S.S.?
-- No, I got more.
   How much pay were you receiving when you were sent as punishment to
Lublin? -- I think it was about 170 or 180 Marks a month, with some
extra pay for being in a foreign country.
   Where did the punishment come in? How were you punished by being
sent to Lublin if you got more money? -- Because the camps in Poland
were not so civilized as the camps in the German Reich.
   Do you mean that the living conditions for the S.S. were better in
Ravensbrück than in Lublin? -- No. They were better in the East, in
Lublin.
   You performed the same sort of duties as  an Aufseherin, you got
the same pay and bonus, and the conditions were no worse for you. Why
did you say it was a punishment? -- It is a punishment because you do
not feel at ease in such a camp."

[snip]

Blackmore:
>Q:  Have you received a German translation of the statement you made on the 
>     11th June, 1945,  at Celle?

>A:  Yes, but it is not a correct version of what I originally said.

Oh, but there is more to this. To stop here is dishonest and typical
of  Blackmore’s tactics as I have pointed out before. 

>Where have we heard this before?    It seems as though the interrogators were,
>as I previously posted, simplying interested in accumulating all the sensationalistic
>statements as possible to use against the accused.  

Mostly we "hear" this from Mr. Blackmore while he attempts to deceive.
Let’s continue on page 228 where he left us hanging.

"In what respects do you say the translation is not correct? --In part
5, it says, ‘The victims were in such a weak state that they would be
very lucky to survive such beatings as I saw her give.’ Weakness did
not originate from the beatings, as they were weak already. . . . ."

>For instance, in the same 
>"deposition" referred to above, it was alleged that Ehlert witnessed a staff member
>"kicking" an inmate.  When questioned about this at the trial, Ehlert said:

>"I never said that he was kicking her."

No, she said:

"With regard to paragraph 9, it is true this woman escaped and came
back and it is true that Kramer beat her, but as I was not very near
and as it was getting dark I could not see whether he hit her with an
instrument or with is fist or what he did. I know that he did hit her.
Then about the kicking: I never said that he was kicking her."

[snip]

Blackmore:
>And so on and so forth.  When asked:

>"How did you find the conditions when you arrived at Belsen?", she replied:

>"The conditions were the worst I ever saw in a camp.  They became worse as time
>went on."

>Thus, her opinion is in agreement with Kramer, who had been virtually duped into 
>accepting the assignment there.  Also in agreement were Pohl and Hoess, who later
>toured the camp at the urgent request of Kramer.  Both of these men also indicated that
>there was nothing they could do for him.

M. Curtis:
Duped!?! Kindly read on:

(page 731 - Statement of Josef Kramer)
	
"On 29th November, 1944, I went to Oranienburg, Berlin, to report to
Gruppenführer Glücks. . . . He said to me: ‘Kramer, you are going to
Belsen as Kommandant.’"


[snip]

Blackmore:
>Now, as to my incessant postings that allied bombing sorties helped to contribute to the
>horrifying conditions in the camp, we find confirmation in the following exchange:

>Q:  Did you try to do anything yourself to help?

M. Curtis:
Let us try to be complete: She said: 

"Yes, I went to the Kommandant several times. Once I had all the
Blockältesten paraded because I was told there was no fat in the food.
I went to the kitchen and talked with the man in charge and the
Aufseherin, and they told me they had not received fat from the
store."

Blackmore then picks it up: 
>A:  ...I went to Unterscharfuehrer Mueller, who was in charge of ...(the)...store, and he told me

Whoa! Was ist los with printing what is written on page 229? It says:
"who was in charge of that store." Maybe Blackmore can explain the
ellipses.

Blackmore continues to quote:
>that all the train wagons were SMASHED BY BOMBING and he could not do anything about
>it.  At that moment I happened to meet Kramer, told him about it and said that the death rate
>was increasing, and that the prisoners could not keep alive on this thin soup.  He made the
>Kommandos from the prisoners collect potatoes and mash them, and those mashed potatoes 
>were mixed with the soup...."

M.  Curtis:
There was no evidence in the actual source so this is Blackmore’s
effort to point out the obvious. But let us continue from where
Blackmore left off.

"He made the Kommandos from the prisoners collect potatoes and smash
them, and these mashed potatoes were mixed with the soup, and in that
way the prisoners had the feeling that they had received something in
their stomachs."

Blackmore:
[snip]

>If we may return briefly to her alleged "confessions and statements" again, we read the
>following:

>Q:  In your statement to Colonel Genn which was read over to you in German and which
>you swore to as true, you said in paragraph 10, "I have heard that Ilse Forster and Frieda
>Walter used to beat interness to a quite unreasonable extent."  

>(Now, notice the method used by the interrogators.  He uses such terms as "I have heard"...
>etc.)

M.  Curtis:
No, this was her statement and _her_ words in paragraph 10 o page 710.

Blackmore:
>  And if she had heard, she would have to have heard form 2nd or 3rd hand sources. Now, for 
>Ehlert's reply:

M. Curtis:
Let’s let Herta wrestle with it rather then Blackmore.

Back to page 236 where I will pick up where Blackmore leaves off:
	
"Had you heard it or had you not? -- No, I did not hear it about Ilse
Forster. It must be that the interpreter did not understand."

Blackmore:
>A:  It must be that the interpreter did not understand.

>Indeed, perhaps it was his intention to deliberately not understand.

M.  Curtis:
But continue with the cross-examination, Blackmore!

	"Did you hear it about Frieda Walter? -- Yes.
Did you mention Ilse Forster in connection with the beatings? -- Yes.
I was asked again and again who was beating in the camp and I was
repeating again and again the names of those persons whom I knew or
whom I had seen beating people, but the Colonel asked me again and
again about Forster and he told me, ‘I have witnesses.  I know the
truth. You had better tell me the truth."

Blackmore:
>In a similar vein:

>Q:  Did you not say to Colonel Genn that you saw him (Kramer) kicking and shaking
>her, and later hit her with a stick on her head and face and all over her body quite
>unmercifully?"

>A:  No.

>Well, it seems that Colonel Genn had quite an imagination.
>Perhaps he "misinterpreted"?

M.  Curtis:
What Blackmore seems to not understand is the use of the deposition
given by Herta Ehlert by the prosecution on page 710 where her
deposition may be read we find paragraph 9. She testifies that she 

". . . saw him kicking and shaking her and later hit her with a stick
on her head and face and all over her body quite unmercifully."

It appears to me that the Prosecutor quoted her properly and the only
misinterpreting being provided us here is that of  Blackmore.

Blackmore:
>Only a couple more examples ought to suffice to formally conclude this debate:

>Q:  Was it not a favorite trick of the SS to make one lot of prisoners beat another?

>A:  No.  They were very often FIGHTING AMONGST EACH OTHER.

M.  Curtis:
When quoting from depositions and interrogatories, Blackmore should
not hunt and pick isolated lines that are out of context with the
subject under discussion. It has already been shown that Blackmore
_consistantly_ uses this unscholarly technique. Those who wish more
evidence of this are kindly requested to read this book for themselves
to form a more balanced opinion.

 [snip]

Blackmore:
>Finally, and this is the one I love the best:

M. Curtis
Blackmore must be an insenitive, bigoted, hateful individual to "love"
anything that is shown in this very sad book. How anybody can read the
book and not feel some sense of moral outrage at what is revealed
therein simply shows how low some members of the human race have sunk.


Blackmore:
>Q:  Do you remember saying to Colonel Genn:  "I say that Kramer was responsible for
>the conditions.  Among other reasons, (Which are conveniently NEVER given) because
>on ONE occasion, when I complained of the increasing death rate to Kramer, he replied,
>"Let them die.  Why should you care?"

>A:  Yes.

>Q:  And I put it to you that you took his advice.

>A:  What could one individual person like me do with so many thousands of prisoners?

M.  Curtis:
Blackmore is repeating again and again. this has been firmly covered
above.

Blackmore:
>The same could well be asked of Kramer................................

M.  Curtis:
Kramer was in charge of the party was he not?

Deniers have attempted to use the nit-picking technique of  reporting
"history." Examples of Blackmores mendacity have been illustrated
above. It is quite easy, as Jamie McCarthy has stated, to state a lie;
much more difficult, tedious, time-consuming to disprove the lie. But
that is what Nizkor is all about. As long as there are those who will
lie about the Holocaust , there will be many others willing to
disprove the lies.

Mike Curtis




From mike@aimetering.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:03 PST 1996
Article: 82116 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:38:30 GMT
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ceacaa@aol.com wrote:

>Mark Van Alstine wrote on 21 Nov 1996 
>
>>> The VanAlstine Tales (continued) 
>> 
>>> In the center of the room, at thirty-yard intervals, 
>>> columns rose from the concrete floor to the
>>> ceiling. 
>>>          THIRTY-YARD INTERVALS?  THAT IS NOT CORRECT,
>>> IS IT, MARK?    (Nyiszli, _Auschwitz_, pp.48-51.) 
>
>>Indeed it isn't, Mr. Allen. But then, I never 
>>claimed it was. 
>Why post stories that you know are incorrect?

Well, I would say, because they are the memories of one individual who
was there. Human memories are tricky things and not all individuals
spend time thinking about being exact when confronted with
documentation that shows that their memories exaggerated distances or
numberic values gathered during difficult situations. Many stories are
incorrect in details. There is some research that suggests that the
Mexican army at the Alamo was 5 times smaller than what was claimed by
eyewitnesses. This doesn't suggest at all that 130 some odd man did
not die in the Alamo.




From mike@aimetering.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:04 PST 1996
Article: 82149 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:47:43 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:  
>  
>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>

>>  Well, for a start, some three million "Aryan" German civilians weren't
>>  deported to Nazi extermination camps and murdered with poison gas.
>
>Afraid you have your facts jumbled, old chap.  The fact is that millions of
>German civilians WERE forcibly expelled from their homes, robbed of their
>money and property, murdered by the hundreds of thousands in concentration
>camps to which they were sent AFTER the war ended.

No, his facts are not wrong. These people were not deported to be
murdered with poison gas.  The politics of the time and the
governments seeking retribution (Poland and Czechoslovakia with the
aid of the Soviets) dealt unfairly and reprehensively with the other
victorious powers when it came to claiming borders and land. They also
tended to want German groups OUT of their nations. Not all of this was
fair or reasoned. History is rarely logical. There have been a couple
of interesting books on this subject that puts the whole thing in its
political perspective. But this isn't what Blackmore wants. 






From mike@aimetering.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:05 PST 1996
Article: 82294 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:43:05 GMT
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ceacaa@aol.com wrote:

posted/emailed

>Mike Curtis 25 Nov 1996 
>>Well, I would say, because they are the 
>>memories of one individual who
>>was there. Human memories are tricky 
>>things and not all individuals
>>spend time thinking about being exact 
>>when confronted with
>>documentation that shows that 
>>their memories exaggerated distances or
>>numberic values gathered during 
>>difficult situations. 
>
>    Don't let any Texan hear you say that!
>Actually, I would agree with you.  The "value"
>of a witness is not precluded by mistakes in
>numeric values or distances.  

You need not worry, Texans are dealing with Davy Crockett surrendering
and ultimately shot by firing squad. At least the historians
presenting this revisionist history have actual verified documentation
to substantiate their position. This is something you denier types do
not. 

>    However, Nyiszli was a Ph.d, had months
>to make his observations and a definite
>sense of the importance of his observations.

Poppycock! He was doctor working under unusual circumstances and in a
violent atmosphere. Was he properly fed and provided with the needed
exercise to keep a healthy mind? Did he suspect that he might go the
way of the sonnderkommandos? Not many "living" in these conditions
thought they would survive the death around them. Most folks do not
know what importance their words would be to those who would use them
to deny what they had personally experienced.

>These factors make his mistakes odd.
>

Not at all. They make the mistakes human.

>Without knowing more about the man

What do you know about George Templeton Strong whose memoirs are very
famous. Yet I see no one denying what he saw and did. Most historians
know that he might be incorrect about details that have since come to
the light of day. They understand that these errors do not make Mr.
Strong a liar.

>or at least the genisis of his book, it is
>hard to really evaluate his story.

I think that the above is irrelevent.






From mike@aimetering.com Thu Nov 28 07:01:06 PST 1996
Article: 82395 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photographs from THEKLA Camp
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:06:27 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>  
>   Why don't you post the photos of mothers and infants burned
>   alive at Dresden by the allies,
>  
>  Why don't you post the photos of the people burned at Dresden?
>
>Apparently I will have to do so, since Nizkor seems too cowardly or
>dishonest to do so.  Look for it sometime in January.  I have a lot of
>scanning to do, and I have been compiling photos to rival anything old
>Danny Keren can post.
>

I've seen these pictures and they look real to me. Piles of burned
bodies in wagons. Burned bodies lining the streets are photographed.
I'm not going to deny that it happened like you, blackmore, are
denying the Holocaust.

>
>In case you didn't know, and we all know that you don't care, German
>civilians by the hundreds of thousands were starved to death, worked to
>death, singled out because they were Germans and murdered by design,
>mostly by Jews in Poland hell bent on revenge and with the complicity and

Wrong. It was mostly by the Polish goverment, the Czech government,
the Russian government. I see you have dropped _Nemesis at Potsdam_
for the more sensational Sack book. I'm for more interested in the
historical truth than in sensational over-blown stories. I guess it is
too much to ask what came first; the destruction of their countries by
the Germans or their brutality towards their German speaking citizens.
Most historians try to ask whether these folks supported the Nazis in
their overthorow of these countries rather than trying to equate it
with the Holocaust. Most historians realize that we are dealing with
different issues here. They realize that refugees kept coming despite
Western attempts to stem the flow. I guess it is clear that historical
truth is not your main goal here.

[test deleted]

>
> doesn't equal German civilians caught in a legitiment 
>>  bombing raid.
>
>Dresden was not a legitimate bombing raid, as has been admitted by
>British Air Marshall Harris, known as "Bomber Harris".  You ought to
>brush up on your history before you open that trap of yours.
>

Your sense of hstory isn't all that good either, Blackmore. I think
the study of Dresden and the bombing needs to go a little deeper than
one single English officer. 

[snipped quibbling over numbers of a horrid event]

>
> The Nazis decided to conduct mass gassings and did it, mass 
>>  shootings and did it, exterminate the Jews and gave it their best 
>>  shot. The old orange and apple stupid trick.
>
>Well, what you say and what you can prove appear to be two 
>entirely different things.

This sounds like something a five year old would say. Is your tongue
sticking out behind Chuck's back?

posted / emailed


From mike@aimetering.com Thu Nov 28 09:31:50 PST 1996
Article: 82455 of alt.revisionism
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From: mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'However, they were herded into the gas chambers and gassed'
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:40:29 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:

>   mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) writes:>  In article <5758pb$igq@juliana.sprynet.com>, 
>rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>  Probably because, Mr. Belling, the topic of alt.revision is about
>  Holocaust denial.
>
>Oh?  And "Holocaust" can only refer to Jews?  Is that what you
>are telling us?
>

No. Mark is telling you and others here that it involves the Nazi
Holocaust that you and your friends are bending over backwards to
deny. None of us are denying the other events that seem to concern you
in your efforts to trivialize and falsely associate with the 12
million victims of Nazi hatred.

>>  The moderators there tend to frown on such puerile and hateful nonsense.
>
>Is that why they never post here?

Moderators have their own forums and groups to moderate. If they post
here or not is none of your business.

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