The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/c/coons.roy.d/1996/coons.0796


From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Tue Jul  9 14:22:25 PDT 1996
Article: 49251 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Irving, Hilberg, Dawidowicz, and Nizkor--Repost (?)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:34:48 -0500
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On the Nizkor site there appears an article by the late holocaust
historian Lucy Dawidowicz which inter alia seeks to demonstrate David
Irving's incompetence, amateurishness, and deceit. The principal subject
is an entry in Himmler's telephone log, which Irving has cited as evidence
of Hitler preventing the execution of Jews. Nizkor--whose purpose in
producing the article is doubtless to both minimize Irving's reputation
and justify their defence of his disgraceful arrest and deportation from
Canada--might be interested in the other side, and in any case readers who
have stumbled upon Dawidowicz' "This Wicked Man Hitler" should at least
know that there is one.

Here's Raul Hilberg on the subject:

In the last footnote of his article, "What the Holocaust Does Not Teach,"
Edward Alexander chides me mildly for my use of an important document,
first published as a facsimile in a book by David Irving, and for citing
Irving as a source.

The item in question is an excerpt from the telephone log of Heinrich
Himmler, noting an order he was giving in the course of a call at 1:30
P.M. on November 30, 1941, to his subordinate, the Security Police Chief
Reinhard Heydrich, who was also the _Reichsprotektor_ in Prague at the
time. Because of the nature of the order, and the fact that the call was
placed from Hitler's bunker, Irving surmised that Himmler was passing on a
decision by Hitler himself. The crucial lines are: "Jewish transport from
Berlin. No liquidation." Irving did not know where the transport was
headed and what happened to it on arrival. The German historian Martin
Broszat concluded that the train was routed to Riga, and that all of its
passengers were shot by Security Police only hours after the call.

The scenario thus reconstructed is buttressed by everything we know about
deportations from Berlin and conditions in the Riga area. Yet Mr.
Alexander considers an alternate explanation, proposed by Lucy S.
Dawidowicz in 1981, as unassailable "beyond any possibility of
contradiction." Mrs. Dawidowicz dismissed not only Irving, whom she called
an amateur, but also Broszat, who was highly knowledgeable. She combined
the two lines pertaining to the transport with two preceding lines that
deal with an unrelated subject: a non-Jew. Then she speculated that the
admonition "No liquidation" applied only to that man and that he was on
the Jewish transport. Finally, she asserted that this train arrived in--of
all places--Prague. Need I say more? ("Commentary," June 1993, Letters to
the Editor).

Of course, the discoverer of this "important document" is currently barred
>from  entering Canada, New Zealand, Germany, Austria, Australia, and Italy.
He was formerly barred from South Africa by the apartheid government,
which evidently shared Nizkor's view of the manifold dangers he posed, but
the bar has, I believe, recently been lifted by the Mandela regime.
Doubtless the ANC is fast becoming a seething cauldron of holocaust
denial.



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Wed Jul 10 06:53:09 PDT 1996
Article: 49413 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor's  FTP Archive
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 1996 12:00:49 -0500
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I can't say I'm exactly disappointed to discover some of my posts archived
(wrongly, as a matter of fact) among the pseudonymous in the Nizkor FTP
archive, but seeing my pearls of wisdom preserved for posterity raises the
question of how Nizkor determines the dramatis personae of its various
lists of the disreputable.

Left-winger Alexander Cockburn earns a place alongside assorted cranks
(and quite a few noncranks) by virtue of his dispute with neo-conservative
Edward Alexander, who is evidently cast in the role of the good guy.
Nizkorians interested in what I fear would be a rare and unpleasant
exercise in moral ambiguity might wish to consult the latter's "Race
Fever," _Commentary_, November 1990--an excellent article, in my benighted
view, but doubtless a scandalous piece of hate-filled intolerance in the
eyes of McVay & Company, for whom the world is divided into the very good
and the very very bad, virtuous anti-racists and virulent bigots, with no
shading in between. Perhaps Mr Alexander will soon be keeping company with
Willis Carto et al. (An educated guess: you guys don't even know who
Alexander Cockburn is, do you?).

And what on earth is FAIR doing squeezed in with Hamas, the National
Alliance, and the KKK? FAIR's chairman, Dan Stein, and its Director of
Media Outreach, Ira Mehlman, are both Jewish, yet that didn't save their
organization from an ADL report, which Nizkor dutifully reproduces. Does
opposing current American immigration policy really constitute hate? And
what possible interest does a largely Canadian group devoted to combatting
holocaust revisionism have in the immigration debate south of the border?

Consider the oddity of all this. Nizkor supports Anti-Racist Action--a
violent gang of unbalanced thugs who would be burning synagogues if they
weren't fighting fascists, along with the odd subway patron they mistake
for a fascist, a group truly indistinguishable from its enemies in both
its ethics and its criminal methods--but it treats a legal, peaceful
organization attempting to influence a contentious issue of contemporary
political debate as though it were a collection of closet hate mongers
seeking to resurrect the Third Reich.

Question: what do Ewald Althans and Ken Campbell share in common? Answer:
nothing, other than their bizarre co-appearance in Nizkor's shit list.








From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Wed Jul 10 08:10:53 PDT 1996
Article: 49420 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor: Vile, Lazy, or Ignorant
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 09:34:00 -0500
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Anyone with even a passing familiarity with mainstream political and
academic discourse should examine Nizkor's archive file "canada-right," a
contemptible piece of character assassination that purports to be a
directory of far-right groups
(orgs/canadian/northern-foundation/canada.right).

Included in this libel are the following fascist luminaries: the late Alan
Bloom, Straussian philosopher, translator of Plato's "Republic," author of
(appropriately in this context) "The Closing of the American Mind";
William F. Buckley, founder and former editor of "National Review," ADL
supporter, author of "In Search of Anti-Semitism," practically an exemplar
of a mainstream conservative commentator; Dinesh D' Souza, author of
"Illiberal Education," the book which (even more appropriately) introduced
the term "political correctness" to our everyday lexicon; Doreen Kimura,
distinguished psychologist, author of influential studies of sex
differences, co-founder (heaven forfend) of the Society for Academic
Freedom and Scholarship; Michael Walker, the director of the conservative
Fraser Institute, a notorious hotbed of Canadian neo-naziism. Etc, etc. 

The list is a stunning study in guilt by association, associations which
in this case no sane person would ever consider. But at least Nizkor is an
equal-opportunity libeller: Jews, Catholics, women, East Indians, wicked
white males of various ethnic and political persuasions--public and
not-so-public figures whose only crime is conservative politics, defence
of free speech, or traditionalist religious convictions--all merit
inclusion along with the likes of Tom Metzger, George Burdi, and Ernst
Zuendel. And the list does, to its credit, yield some real McCarthyite
delights: eg. UNB math professor Matin Yaqzan "supports Malcolm Ross, is
supported by Camille Paglia." Thus do the tentacles of this sinister
conspiracy reach ever outward.

A few explanations of this abomination come to mind: you guys are vile
beyond anything I could ever have imagined; no-one actually read this
"neo-right directory" before it was archived for the world to see; or you
are so massively ignorant that you don't actually know anything about
those whom you have libelled.

On the optimistic assumption that the latter is the case, I would advise
that you consult someone outside of your obsessive anti-racist clique and
its circle of admirers, preferably some techno-peasant who still actually
reads the occasional book, newspaper, or magazine, and ask him if Irving
Kristol really deserves to have his name appear right above the Aryan
terrorist David ("Wodensson") Lane, or why D'Souza and former Grand Wizard
David Duke are not exactly soulmates.

In any event, if you have any decency at all, you will remove this trash
>from  your site. Quickly.




From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Wed Jul 10 08:10:54 PDT 1996
Article: 49432 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's  FTP Archive
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 07:22:59 -0500
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> jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article
...
> "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> If you feel you've been erroneously labelled as pseudonymous, I'll talk
> it over with Ken McVay.  The first question that comes to mind is, why
> are you posting from Netcom's Toronto site but giving a Compuserve email
> address?

Keep me pseudonymous; I really don't care. The explanation, though, is
incredibly simple. Suspicion must be an occupational hazard in the
anti-hate business. If I post in future, perhaps I'll appear as John
Smith, just to make things easy.
> 
> I don't recall putting up a list of "good guys" and "bad guys" on
> Nizkor.  Please refrain from leaping to conclusions.

Then please explain the pertinence of FAIR (Federation for American
Immigration Reform) to holocaust denial. It's difficult to imagine that
Dan Stein has ever expressed any relevant opinion on the subject, other
than, perhaps, to say he doesn't approve of it. So why is FAIR listed, if
not to establish a false continuum of "hate groups" that extends from
authentic white supremacists through revisionists to mainstream advocates
of views that you (I can only assume) don't support.

> 
> And now you've gone from lies about us to lies about the Nizkor
> organization.
> 
> Please document this or retract it.
> 
> (Boy, do I ever get tired of saying that.)

No research necessary. Check Ken McVay's three-page response to
"Anti-Racist Conference in Toronto June 22-23," posted 18 June. Eg. "For
more information . . . contact Anti-Racist Action" etc; "my thanks to
Ernst Zundel and Ingrid Rimland for bringing the conference to the
attention of the Internet." A charming witticism, of course. So you
"explicitly" denounce political violence, but then advertise an assembly
of its principal practitioners. 

And a fine PC-fest it must have been: "Saturday. Special guests will speak
about today's white supremacists--what they believe and how they organize.
They will describe the connections between fascism and racism, anti-Native
organizing, anti-Semitism, denial of the Holocaust, sexism and homophobia,
ableism, psychiatry, anti-choice organizing, and economic exploitation and
oppression." A unified theory of oppression science, so to speak.

As Mr McVay typed this blather out, along with the rest of the leftist
boilerplate that littered the post, did it ever occur to him that
intermingling the holocaust with the alleged evils of ableism and
psychiatry (!) might just detract a little from the seriousness of the
former? Or that there is something pretty monstrous about confusing
pro-life ("anti-choice") organizations with fascism? Decent people do
disagree on the issue of abortion, and the demonization of legitimate
differences of opinion on contentious subjects is a cheap trick too
frequently practised by the Left. That's part of what I mean when I say
you divide humanity into the very good and the very very bad, viz. an
apparent inability to distinguish what you simply disagree with from what
you feel compelled to condemn.

> Nizkor's "shit list" does include Ken Campbell, it's true, who has
> kindly provided us with our mirror site at http://www.nizkor.eye.net/ .
> Many thanks for that, Mr. Campbell.

Wrong Ken Campbell, though you have helpfully confirmed a suspicion of
mine. I was speaking instead of the "homophobic and anti-choice leader
[Rev.] Ken Campbell," who plainly is on a shit list. If you can uncover
any anti-semitic quotes that might explain his appearance therein, I'll
make a generous contribution to ARA. I wonder what the other Ken Campbell,
the newspaper columnist, will be thinking when he reads his e-mail.


> In other words, Duncan Coons, you have a long way to go before you
> overcome your prejudice regarding our site.  I recommend a lot more
> web-browsing and a lot fewer assumptions.

Let me be a bit personal about my alleged prejudice. I first heard of Ken
McVay on a television broadcast and later in K.K. Campbell's column, or
perhaps vice versa. He seemed an admirable character: a vigorous defender
of free speech, someone who had strong convictions about a painful topic,
but nevertheless understood that a free society must always repudiate the
exercise of force, legal or otherwise, against unpopular ideas. Hayek
defines freedom as "the absence of coercion," and I find the definition
instructive. We may disagree with others, but we always concede their
right to speak unimpeded by law. Etc.

I had alt.revisionism subscribed for about a year before I finally drifted
in. About the first McVayism I encountered was his savage glee at the
possibility that Ernst Zundel would be deported and imprisoned: "Have a
nice trip back to Berlin, bucky. We won't miss you--not even a little bit.
Have a bloodly delightful trip." 

At the risk of melodrama, I was shocked, my heart aflutter, etc, ad
nauseam. I have my own absolutism, and I invariably find it painfully
astonishing that those free-speech truisms that easily slip off the tongue
of every American schoolboy--and that most Americans from a wide range of
political orientations endorse both in theory and (largely) in practice,
whatever their other disagreements--seem so difficult for far too many
otherwise rational Canadians to grasp, save through appealing rhetoric
whose implications they don't truly understand. That, to take a concrete
example, you and McVay and Ostrov (all of whom I'm sure are nice people,
kind to your pets, etc) just can't seem to understand that there is
something terribly wrong about an historian being led off in handcuffs to
prison and barred from ever returning to this country. Or that you would
endorse (or advertise, however you choose to characterize it) an
organization that actually slit a man's throat at a subway station because
they suspected (wrongly, though it hardly matters) that he was a racist,
and that routinely uses violence against its opponents, sometimes
infantile (throwing excrement), sometimes brutal (beating people up).
Whatever Ernst Zundel's or David Irving's sins, no-one has ever accused
either of anything comparable.

And I'm not making unwarranted assumptions. Throughout much of your site
you really do traipse far too easily from the killing of Jews to the
denial of the holocaust and thence to legitimate political opinions you
evidently dislike. I will document an especially outrageous example in
another post.







From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Fri Jul 12 11:09:58 PDT 1996
Article: 49882 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's  FTP Archive
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 07:54:39 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
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Message-ID: <01bb6ffb.87753320$5bcfd3c6@default>
References: <01bb6db8.2e18ae00$afded3c6@default> <31e43d39.1581667@news.inetport.com> <4s3juk$d18@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
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> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote in article
<4s3juk$d18@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>...

> Isn't it interesting that Mr. Coons didn't list the ADL, The
> Simon Wiesenthal Center, the Canadian Security Intelligence
> Review Board, the League for Human Rights, the Austrian
> Resistance Archives, the United States Holocaust Memorial
> Museum, Yad Vashem, America On Line, Prodigy, the Province of
> British Columbia, World Jewish Congress, the International Red
> Cross, and other groups listed within the archives. 

But of course you fail to notice the context within which your site
exists, a context that your own Nizkor Objectives page specifies, namely
(in brief) mass murder, anti-Semitism, and racism. It is therefore
misleading to say that you merely archive material on "various subjects,"
as though the subjects in question were unrelated to your stated
objectives in presenting them. The Royal Canadian Geographic Society is
unlikely ever to be listed among your collection of organizations, but
should it in fact appear one could only conclude that it had some relevant
"position" on one of the three, a position that would inevitably imply
some moral evaluation.

FAIR, an organization whose activities of necessity touch on the volatile
issue of race, is therefore contextually mischaracterized by its
appearance alongside a host of other organizations whose motives and
behaviour are indeed reprehensible, suggesting, as I pointed out before, a
false continuum of hate groups. It may not have been intentional, but the
effect remains. That the Red Cross and Prodigy also appear is irrelevant,
since, in the absence of any "position" that touches on the subjects in
question, neither is susceptible to such misinterpretation. In a site
devoted primarily to the documentation of mass murder, with "anti-racism"
as a sideline, Yad Vashem can be reliably presumed innocent, Prodigy
neutral, but FAIR contextually guilty, its listing only comprehensible in
terms of your subsidiary anti-racist campaign.

Which raises another kind of contextual misidentification that still
rankles, your endorsement (or support, or advertisement, whatever) of ARA,
an organization that, among its many sins, and in the very words you typed
out for everyone to see, confuses the holocaust with the evils of
"psychiatry," "ableism," "homophobia," and "anti-choice organizing." Given
what you do with so many of your waking hours, I shouldn't have to draw
your attention to the minimizing effect of this kind of juxtaposition. The
Jews musn't be permitted to monopolise all that delicious suffering, as
Edward Alexander put it once. 

By advertising such a ridiculous conference, Nizkor becomes party to the
misappropriation of a specific crime for comical leftist sloganeering.
Call me a bigot, but I am not too concerned about "ableism," and any
objections I may have to psychiatry are entirely unrelated to the subject
of mass murder. The halo of sanctity that the term "anti-racism" evokes
shouldn't obscure the idiocy, let alone the violence, of the "anti-racist
movement" as it exists in practice.


> Mr. Coons attacks Linda Wayne's report, and, were it his
> system, it would not be saved - why? Because it contains
> inaccurate portrayals of people. 
> 
> Mr. Coons did not mention Leslie Griswold's archives, which do
> precisely the same thing.
> 
All irrelevant, since you fail to observe that a post written by Mr
Griswold and archived accordingly, or one written by Duncan Coons and
archived under his pseudonym, is easily identified as the author's
opinions. But if the "Encyclopedia Canadiana" then used Griswold's
opinions for its article on Ken McVay, we'd have a problem.

Imagine Nizkor as a library, which in many respects it resembles. In this
library I don't discover Linda Wayne's "report" under Author: Wayne, but
under Subject: Far-Right. The former would indicate that the demented
trash in question (whose numerous libels I only touched on) is the opinion
of Linda Wayne, the latter that it is reliable information about the
far-right. Or to be more personal, I look up the subject of Left-Wing
Extremism and, in an article that purports to be a compendium of
extremists, discover Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, the Weather Underground--and
Ken McVay. Author: Leslie Griswold, unbiased historian.



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Sat Jul 13 18:18:27 PDT 1996
Article: 50082 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's  FTP Archive
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 09:08:34 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
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Message-ID: <01bb6ffd.2b83fd60$5bcfd3c6@default>
References: <01bb6db8.2e18ae00$afded3c6@default>  <01bb6e66.c4ccdb60$83cfd3c6@default> <4s1c1m$r19@access5.digex.net>
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> mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote in article
<4s1c1m$r19@access5.digex.net>...
>

>     I further note that your article ID does not match either of the two
> sources.  To anyone familiar with the 'net, a discrepancy this blatant
is
> prima facie evidence of something highly irregular; the headers indicate
> that the article cannot be authenticated as coming from the ostensible
> poster without sending an email to that address asking for confirmation.

> What _is_ your incredibly simple explanation of a CompuServe address, a
> Netcom Toronto posting host, and an article ID that simply ends in
> "@default?" 


The day I've always dreaded is fast approaching: I must be turning into a
net expert, or at least comparatively so. 

The explanation of the first two parts of this nonpuzzle _is_ incredibly
simple; the third part is, I'll grant, slightly more complicated. Focus
your expertise within the confines of completely innocent explanations and
you'll soon arrive at the truth.

(Still, your concern with forgery is, I now see, laudable; I just find it
slightly irritating that anything I've written could be considered
sufficiently reprehensible to imply a motive for the concealment of its
source.)



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Sun Jul 14 07:45:11 PDT 1996
Article: 50148 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 1996 03:46:09 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
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> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote in article
...

> Anyway, "revisionists" may try and prove their claims, by
> standing in a relatively cold chamber and having Zyklon-B
> thrown into it. Oddly enough, they haven't suggested doing
> that.
> 

This is, I suppose, somewhat off topic, but a few years back Michael
Fumento challenged the biologist Peter Duesberg, who doesn't believe HIV
causes AIDS, to a similar experiment: become a lab-rat for the good of
epidemiology, inject yourself with purified HIV, and see what happens. For
some reason Duesberg declined.



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:15 PDT 1996
Article: 51362 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitchens Salutes Historian David Irving
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:40:08 -0500
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> mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote in article
<31e909d8.7172126@news.inetport.com>...
> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> 
> >In article ,
> >slepokuo@cadvision.com (Orest Slepokura) writes:
> >
> >> "If these people want to
> >>speak, let them. It only leads those of us who do research to
re-examine
> >>what we might have considered as obvious. And that's useful for us. I
> >have
> >>quoted Eichmann references that come from a neo-Nazi publishing house.
I
> >>am not for taboos and I am not for repression."
> >>
> >>
> 
> One could add that Lies are cheap and the truth costly. Overcoming
> Irving's distortions has resulted in many a book to refute him. This
> is expensive work thought necessary by acadamia. If you have a problem
> with their refutations or feel that they have failed in any way this
> might be a good thread for you to start. You seem to be a fan after
> all?
> 

Of course, as usual, you misunderstand a rather obvious point, and your
last remark is both silly and cheap. Ehrlich was simply drawing our
attention to the practices of serious scholarship, as expressed in the (I
would hope) uncontroversial words of a distinguished historian. He
assumed--in your case, naively--that everyone would understand the
significance of Hilberg's comments.

No one disputes David Irving's manifest talents as a researcher, though
many legitimately question his motives. Hilberg, as a serious scholar,
understands both his abilities and his limitations, and he acts
accordingly. The successful refutation of even a "lying" book can be
considered an enlargement of human knowledge, just as the response to
revisionism, by Pressac and others, has broadened our understanding of the
machinery of extermination.

I provided a pertinent example of Hilberg's scholarly methods in my post
on Irving and Dawidowicz, to which you helpfully appended your customary
irrelevancies.



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Fri Jul 19 07:29:18 PDT 1996
Article: 51363 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor's  FTP Archive
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:16:02 -0500
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> mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote [a delightful potpourri of
immaterial comments]

Mr Curtis, I'm sure you have many noteworthy abilities, but reading
comprehension is obviously not one of them.



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Tue Jul 23 13:15:05 PDT 1996
Article: 52526 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Silence You Almost Can Hear
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 03:00:02 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
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> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote in article
<4t1kip$idj@news.enter.net>...

> 	There has been not a single remark, a single statement, a single 
> posting, that noted that Giwer was violating every principal that they
claim to hold 
> so dear.  Ehrlich606 (with whom I frequently disagree with but consider
a 
> gentleman) has said nothing.  David Thomas (with whom I emphatically
disagree 
> but consider a gentleman) has said nothing.  The rest of the CODOH
crowd, who 
> claim to be such keepers of the flame of free expression that they
maintain a 
> "thought crimes archive" not only have kept their silence but,
naturally, they 
> have not added this admitted attempt to stifle free speech to their
"archive."  L'il 
> Tommy Moran chortled over Giwer's proposal for a frivolous legal action
and 
> asked for a piece of the action until it became a laughing stock. 
Although he 
> has found time to lie about the activities of others, he has said not a
word about 
> Giwer.  Lyin' Al Baron, who incessant whining about how "the Jews" are
after 
> him has become a staple of a.r, is silent.  The H*b*r synergy or Les
Griswold or 
> Marc Lemire?  Don't be silly.
> 
> 	None have stood up.  None have said a word.  None have defended 
> "free speech."  None have demonstrated that their attachment to "free
speech" 
> is anything more than special pleading so that some rather eccentric
claims, often 
> replete with blatent misrepresentation and venomous bigotry, sometimes
so 
> obviously fraudulent as to be laughable, can be published without
opposition.
> 
> 	As the Canadian poet wrote, it is a silence you almost can hear.


All this is rather silly. No one spoke up because no one took Giwer's
threat of a law-suit seriously. Such a suit would not have the remotest
possibility of success, as you yourself (I believe) have pointed out.

Your analysis of the motives of at least some revisionists/deniers might
even be correct, and absent our ability to read minds we'll never know;
but the incontrovertible truth remains that they are often subject to real
censorship, whereas their opponents are not. Anyone concerned with free
speech is therefore obliged to defend the rights of those whose views/lies
are subject to suppression, not those whose free-speech rights are secure
>from  interference. And in fact by defending the former we secure the
latter and, hopefully, make the principle universal. 



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Tue Jul 23 18:20:35 PDT 1996
Article: 52554 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news
From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Silence You Almost Can Hear
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:18:48 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
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> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote in article
<4t2j09$q1g@news.enter.net>...

> 	Nizkor's words are subject to the same such attacks and you are not 
> willing to even make a statement as to their rights to be heard.  I
frankly think that 
> the "suppression" of revisionazi statements is marginal.  The cases of
"real 
> censorship" are few and feeble.  One was no more than a sleazy ISP
reneging on 
> an agreement in a sleazy fashion.  Other cases have been exagerated or
even 
> fabricated (the claim that Ewald Althans was tried for speaking his
mind, for 
> example).
> 
> 	Further you have not been asked to do anything that would have taken 
> more than 15 minutes.  Compare that to the effort expended by Richard
Green 
> when the Zundel site had a minor problem.
> 
> 	Thank you for demonstrating your lack of dedication to "free speech."
> 
> 	--YFE

If Giwer had threatened to wave a magic wand and abolish American
democracy, I wouldn't have jumped to democracy's defence either. His
threat against Nizkor was in roughly the same category.



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Tue Jul 23 18:20:37 PDT 1996
Article: 52567 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!cunews!freenet-news.carleton.ca!worldlinx.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.infi.net!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news
From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.general,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk,misc.legal,ont.general,bc.general,talk.politics.misc
Subject: Re: Wiesenthal Center (Canada) and the Ostrich Syndrome
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 15:31:29 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
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> kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote in article
<4t2qun$5sv@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>...

> Littman is quoted as saying:
> 
>         "We found the longer you leave these groups unexposed, 
>         the longer they fester and the more they infect others 
>         and the only way to deal with them honestly and forcefully 
>         is to expose them to the light of truth."
> 
> Yet the article concludes, 
> 
>         "Littman said he wants to see if Klatt will remove the groups  
>         from Fairview voluntarily before the centre takes any other 
>         action."
> 
> The only truth that seems to emerge from such a veiled threat is that
> Littman has no understanding of the Internet.  One is at a loss to
determine
> how removal of the "groups" from one Internet Provider's server would in
any
> way "expose them to the light of truth."
> 

Beautifully put, if you don't mind some mild flattery.

What I find interesting is the peculiar naivety of Mr Littman's otherwise
suspicious inconsistency. I don't think he intends to be deceitful; he
honestly doesn't see that exposing falsehood and suppressing it are
incompatible. He imagines, I suspect, that since the objective of each is
the same, the methods employed are immaterial, and hence what should be an
obvious contradiction doesn't actually register in his mind. As long as
the bad guys lose, it doesn't matter how the good guys win.



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Tue Jul 23 18:20:37 PDT 1996
Article: 52568 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.politics
Subject: Re: Dunford on the Z List screw-up
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 16:03:08 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
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> ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie Farber) wrote in article
<4t2j6d$2fog@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
> In today's Toronto Sun (July 23,1996), Gary Dunford writes:
> 
> "WHOOPS: You'd be excused for not knowing about The Z List---
> an electronic newsletter that stinks up the Internet,a daily helping
> of hate group spew for those who follow the topic. (The Z is for
Zundel).
> But imagine the shock of those who subscribe to the e mailing when
> some novice moved a query to all hands the other day, testing what
> interest there might be in a chat room. Sent as a copy of an original,
each
> e-flash was post-scripted with a complete list of every subscriber being
> mass-mailed! The howls you hear are from hate mongers who were
> cyber-discreet, but outed. Journalists and cops got a yock out of it.
> Always get a real geek, suckers." Toronto Sun, July, 23, 1996
> 
> 
Dunford neglects to mention that Zundel's greatest adversary in this city,
"Sun" reporter Bill Dunphy, also appears on the Z-list. Which shows how
useful it is as an index of hatemongerhood. By the same standard if I own
a copy of "Capital" I'm a Marxist, a copy of "Justine" makes me a sadist.
And that Bernie Farber reads the "Sun" proves he's voting Reform.

Whoever posted the list must have the psychological profile of a Stasi
agent, or a HUAAC investigator. 



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Tue Jul 23 18:20:38 PDT 1996
Article: 52582 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Silence You Almost Can Hear
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 03:00:02 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <01bb7873.b5d452I0$6fded3c6@default>
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> yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote in article
<4t1kip$idj@news.enter.net>...

> 	There has been not a single remark, a single statement, a single 
> posting, that noted that Giwer was violating every principal that they
claim to hold 
> so dear.  Ehrlich606 (with whom I frequently disagree with but consider
a 
> gentleman) has said nothing.  David Thomas (with whom I emphatically
disagree 
> but consider a gentleman) has said nothing.  The rest of the CODOH
crowd, who 
> claim to be such keepers of the flame of free expression that they
maintain a 
> "thought crimes archive" not only have kept their silence but,
naturally, they 
> have not added this admitted attempt to stifle free speech to their
"archive."  L'il 
> Tommy Moran chortled over Giwer's proposal for a frivolous legal action
and 
> asked for a piece of the action until it became a laughing stock. 
Although he 
> has found time to lie about the activities of others, he has said not a
word about 
> Giwer.  Lyin' Al Baron, who incessant whining about how "the Jews" are
after 
> him has become a staple of a.r, is silent.  The H*b*r synergy or Les
Griswold or 
> Marc Lemire?  Don't be silly.
> 
> 	None have stood up.  None have said a word.  None have defended 
> "free speech."  None have demonstrated that their attachment to "free
speech" 
> is anything more than special pleading so that some rather eccentric
claims, often 
> replete with blatent misrepresentation and venomous bigotry, sometimes
so 
> obviously fraudulent as to be laughable, can be published without
opposition.
> 
> 	As the Canadian poet wrote, it is a silence you almost can hear.


All this is rather silly. No one spoke up because no one took Giwer's
threat of a law-suit seriously. Such a suit would not have the remotest
possibility of success, as you yourself (I believe) have pointed out.

Your analysis of the motives of at least some revisionists/deniers might
even be correct, and absent our ability to read minds we'll never know;
but the incontrovertible truth remains that they are often subject to real
censorship, whereas their opponents are not. Anyone concerned with free
speech is therefore obliged to defend the rights of those whose views/lies
are subject to suppression, not those whose free-speech rights are secure
>from  interference. And in fact by defending the former we secure the
latter and, hopefully, make the principle universal. 



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Tue Jul 23 20:23:33 PDT 1996
Article: 52568 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,can.politics
Subject: Re: Dunford on the Z List screw-up
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 16:03:08 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <01bb78dd.b1571380$64b85ccf@default>
References: <4t2j6d$2fog@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:52568 can.politics:60244



> ncrccjc@ibm.net (Bernie Farber) wrote in article
<4t2j6d$2fog@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
> In today's Toronto Sun (July 23,1996), Gary Dunford writes:
> 
> "WHOOPS: You'd be excused for not knowing about The Z List---
> an electronic newsletter that stinks up the Internet,a daily helping
> of hate group spew for those who follow the topic. (The Z is for
Zundel).
> But imagine the shock of those who subscribe to the e mailing when
> some novice moved a query to all hands the other day, testing what
> interest there might be in a chat room. Sent as a copy of an original,
each
> e-flash was post-scripted with a complete list of every subscriber being
> mass-mailed! The howls you hear are from hate mongers who were
> cyber-discreet, but outed. Journalists and cops got a yock out of it.
> Always get a real geek, suckers." Toronto Sun, July, 23, 1996
> 
> 
Dunford neglects to mention that Zundel's greatest adversary in this city,
"Sun" reporter Bill Dunphy, also appears on the Z-list. Which shows how
useful it is as an index of hatemongerhood. By the same standard if I own
a copy of "Capital" I'm a Marxist, a copy of "Justine" makes me a sadist.
And that Bernie Farber reads the "Sun" proves he's voting Reform.

Whoever posted the list must have the psychological profile of a Stasi
agent, or a HUAAC investigator. 



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Thu Jul 25 06:38:59 PDT 1996
Article: 53054 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news
From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dunford on the Z List screw-up
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 04:54:49 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <01bb7a17.1663db20$5ccfd3c6@default>
References: <4t3kem$hmd@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4t6rf2$f57@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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Rich Graves was, I'm afraid, too heavy handed in his irony. He understood
the relevant issue, namely the public dissemination of private information
in an attempt to inculpate, but decided to avoid it, confusing you in the
process. Some of the names on the Z-list posted here a few days ago are
not even Zundel sympathizers, and both the guilty and the innocent are now
potential victims of harassment. My point was that anyone who assumed that
the list would reveal "guilt," as the person who posted it evidently did,
would have made a good HUAAC investigator, "good" being my own ironic
substitute for ethically wrong. 



> dukeuvurl@aol.com (DukeuvURL) wrote in article
<4t6rf2$f57@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
> Rich Graves wrote:
> 
> >>"Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com> writes:
> >>Whoever posted the list must have the psychological profile of a Stasi
> >>agent, or a HUAAC investigator. 
> >
> >I'm sure that Ingrid Rimland, the list owner, who accidentally posted
the
> >list for the SECOND time (first was March 24th), will be flattered.
> 
> I think Duncan might be referring to some others who have latched onto
and
> reposted the list in several places.  With no personal criticism
directed
> at Cecelia, I don't think much of her use of it either.  It was not
> necessary for what she was/is trying to do, nor were her Yiddish remarks
> called for.  But hey, you see a lot worse here many times each day.
 


From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Fri Jul 26 05:07:48 PDT 1996
Article: 53336 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news
From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dunford on the Z List screw-up
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 20:01:13 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <01bb7a94.21f25a20$57b75ccf@default>
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> rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote in article
<4t89fi$1uv@Networking.Stanford.EDU>...

>I assure you that I have it on pretty good authority that the person who
> posted the ZGram list did not assume "guilt." If you have any lingering
> concerns about that, email zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org. If you hear of
any
> harassment due to the posting of the ZGram list, please let us know, and
> the problem will be investigated.

I commend you for your sterling anti-censorship record, but in this case,
which involves a largely unrelated set of issues, your judgement was
flawed and your clarification makes the ethical lapse even worse. That you
did not assume guilt entails a recognition on your part that non-fascists
also appear on Zundel's list. If not everyone therein is guilty, then some
must be innocent.Yet you decided  to post the Z-list anyway, thereby
associating (by your own admission) the non-guilty with neo-naziism. 

Imagine the following scenario: circa 1956 Rich Graves orders some books
>from  the American Communist Party, just to see what the Reds are up to, or
perhaps because his politics are vaguely leftish. I acquire a communist
mailing list in which your name appears. Would you be pleased if I, as a
zealous anti-communist, sent it off to the local paper, or to Senator
McCarthy's office?

Another scenario: in 1996 a German university professor receives daily
electronic messages from a famous neo-nazi whose views are literally
criminal in Germany. Perhaps he's a supporter, perhaps he's just
interested in the far-right. Would our not-so-hypothetical professor have
some legitimate cause for complaint if Rich Graves, zealous anti-racist,
posted his e-mail address in a public forum?

Earlier I proposed, by way of unflattering analogy, the psychological
profile of a Stasi informer or a HUAAC investigator. Your clarification
suggests a different analogy, the computer hacker who assumes that the
technological incompetence of another is sufficient justification for any
action that exposes it. That, perhaps, was the motive for the post.
Low-tech Ingrid Rimland doesn't know as much about these mechanical boxes
as you do, so wouldn't it be humorous to expose her ineptitude.




From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Sat Jul 27 11:56:48 PDT 1996
Article: 53379 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!cs.umd.edu!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news
From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Christianity in Great Danger
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 1996 03:07:40 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <01bb7aca.05bbd940$58b85ccf@default>
References: <4t810j$so7@juliana.sprynet.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on9-24.netcom.ca
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jul 26  3:16:14 AM EDT 1996
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> karlpov@access5.digex.net (Charles R.L. Power) wrote in article
...

> Er, why would anyone need to revise Christian history in order to
> demonstrate that Christianity has, in fact, been dangerous to Jews?
> See Inquisition, Crusades, pogroms, etc. etc. etc. All providing
> the necessary background for the nominally secular antisemitism
> leading up to the Holocaust.


In the main you are, of course, correct, but the phrase "nominally
secular" is quite misleading in this context, and it's important to
understand why. Nazi anti-semitism was precisely secular and nonreligious,
whereas medieval anti-semitism almost invariably involved persecution on
the basis of "false belief," specifically the refusal to accept the
divinity of Christ. The forced conversions of Jews, which were a common
element in medieval pogroms, testify to a non-racial animus. A change (or
superficial change) of belief removed you from the category Jew, within
which you were subject to sporadic anti-semitic persecution, and placed
you in the category Christian, within which you were immune from it. 

Admittedly the distinction between religious and racial persecution may
seem overly academic, but it is nevertheless crucial. Jews were not killed
or persecuted in the Middle Ages because they were racially Jewish, but
because they refused to accept the "truths" of Christianity. They were
thus spiritually outside Christendom, while living physically within it,
and the conversion of the Jews was accordingly a recurring issue in
medieval intellectual life. The question itself, however, presupposed that
the "other" was potentially a member of the collective "us." 

Some shading must be added here and there--the persecution of  converted
Jews during the Spanish Inquisition did anticipate, vaguely, modern
anti-semitism, though this case involves additional complications, in
brief greed--but in general it is too simplistic to locate the antecedents
of the Holocaust in Christian history. The Middle Ages and the Renaissance
did not think in explicitly racial terms, for the simple reason that the
category "race" (in the modern sense) had not yet come into mental
existence. And race was obviously central to the Hitlerian pogrom.

The necessary "background" for the holocaust is more accurately located in
the nineteenth-century science of race, which (wrongly, of course) turned
Jewishness into an immutable biological category. No Jew could ever
convert himself into an Aryan; science had declared him forever "other"
and thus forever outside the larger society. Hitler, with some
justification, considered the popularization of this particular biological
"discovery" his great contribution to the history of anti-semitism. We
might say instead that he improperly introduced anti-semitism into the
history of racism, an intellectual error that sanctioned a physical
crime.




From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Sat Jul 27 11:56:49 PDT 1996
Article: 53663 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ZSpam Digest: Messages from the American Nazi Party/NSWPP
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 17:12:44 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <01bb7a77.4966ee80$6dcfd3c6@default>
References: <199607217215.ABB1811@infinity.c2.org>  <4t89sm$214@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
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> rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote in article
<4t89sm$214@Networking.Stanford.EDU>...
> schwartz@infinet.com writes:
> I'm sure Duncan will condem this invasion of your personal sspace
> immediately. I really don't think it's a big deal, though. Just ask him
to
> unsubscribe you, and leave it at that. If you don't raise your voice, he
> won't, either.
> 
There must be an insult buried somewhere in this, but it's well beyond my
capacity to unearth it. The sarcasm you apparently take pride in is
beginning to make your posts incomprehensible?



From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Tue Jul 30 20:36:15 PDT 1996
Article: 54412 of alt.revisionism
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ken McVay and Rich Graves support censorship
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:36:26 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <01bb7e2e.55fc15c0$4fded3c6@default>
References: <4s5b5c$1s5@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> <4sun4t$rln@news1.panix.com> <093312Z22071996@anon.penet.fi> <4t9epn$972@news.pyrotechnics.com> <4t9s58$6fg@Networking.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on4-15.netcom.ca
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1085

> rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote in article
<4t9s58$6fg@Networking.Stanford.EDU>...
> Several newsgroups deleted, followups set.
> 
> scallon@pyrotechnics.com (Brendan J. F. Scallon) writes:
> >For those of you who do not understand:
> >
> >Kenneth McVay started the Nizkor Project after he stumbled across Dan
> >Gannon's revisionist BBS (denies the Holocaust).  His Nizkor Project
> >had millions of byltes of data about the Holocaust and info about the
> >revisionists (i.e. Gannon, Les Greaseball, Rich Graves, Kevin Alfred
>                                             ^^^^^^^^^^^
> >Strom, etc.); He was awarded the Order of British Columbia for his
> >work.
> 
> Hmm. How'd I get in there? How amusing.
> 
> No, Duncan, I'm merely amused. I'm too young and secure [sic] to worry
> what people who don't know me think. I also know that I have the freedom
> to respond. Were I so "exposed" in Germany, yes, it would give me pause,
> but I would prefer to deal with it in the open.


I'm sure, though, that you will excuse my own amusement at this ironic
turn of events. It may not be definitive proof of the existence of God,
but it does at least demonstrate that He has a sense of humour. 

Perhaps you'll even merit an entry in Linda Wayne's next far-right report:
"Rich Graves, distributes hate propaganda, supports Ernst Zundel, cloaks
his neo-nazi activities as free-speech activism, associated with Kevin
Alfred Strom, q.v."


From 104670.3420@compuserve.com Wed Jul 31 17:12:59 PDT 1996
Article: 83671 of control
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From: "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com>
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: cmsg cancel <01bb7e6a.bfcf7d20$82b75ccf@default>
Control: cancel <01bb7e6a.bfcf7d20$82b75ccf@default>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 19:10:12 -0500
Organization: Netcom Canada
Lines: 1
Message-ID: <01bb7e74.a45d3aa0$8dcfd3c6@default>
NNTP-Posting-Host: trt-on2-13.netcom.ca
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