From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 12 11:49:36 PST 1996
Article: 23413 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.activism,alt.discrimination,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:   <4fii43$nl0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:21:59 GMT
Lines: 44
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:18580 alt.revisionism:23413 alt.activism:27920 alt.discrimination:42813 comp.org.eff.talk:59827

Ken McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) writes:
> 
>>  "A society in which young men and women gather to revel with polkas or
>>  waltzes, reels or jigs, or any other White dances, but never to undulate
>>  or jerk to negroid jazz or rock rhythms. It means pop music without Barry
>>  Manilow and art galleries without Marc Chagall. It means films in which
>>  the appearance of any non-White face on the screen is a sure sign that
>>  what's being shown is either archival newsreel footage or a historical
>>  drama about the bad, old days."
> 
> In other words, the National Alliance stands four-square on
> the side of suppression of ideas: censorship, in all its
> glory. Why are we not surprised?

For the real story on the National Alliance,

Call the National Alliance answering service.
 	Main office:	(304) 653-4600
	California:	(818) 725-3430
  	Florida:	(407) 275-6815
	Illinois:	(708) 818-4045
	Maryland:	(410) 813-4105
	Mississippi:	(601) 373-6290
	Nevada:		(702) 434-1994
	New Jersey:	(201) 697-1011
	New York:	(212) 388-2655
	North Carolina:	(919) 742-2438
	Ohio:		(216) 846-1045
	Ottawa, Canada	(613) 834-7960
	Virginia:	(703) 715-6050  or (804) 673-7350
		
or check out the Web page at: http://www.natvan.com


Sylvie Charbonneau

"We come from the land of the ice and snow
Where the midnight sun and the hot springs blow
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands
To fight the hordes, singing and crying,
'Valhalla, I am coming....'"
		
		Led Zeppelin, "The Immigrant Song"



From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 12 17:22:26 PST 1996
Article: 23413 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.activism,alt.discrimination,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:   <4fii43$nl0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:21:59 GMT
Lines: 44
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:18580 alt.revisionism:23413 alt.activism:27920 alt.discrimination:42813 comp.org.eff.talk:59827

Ken McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) writes:
> 
>>  "A society in which young men and women gather to revel with polkas or
>>  waltzes, reels or jigs, or any other White dances, but never to undulate
>>  or jerk to negroid jazz or rock rhythms. It means pop music without Barry
>>  Manilow and art galleries without Marc Chagall. It means films in which
>>  the appearance of any non-White face on the screen is a sure sign that
>>  what's being shown is either archival newsreel footage or a historical
>>  drama about the bad, old days."
> 
> In other words, the National Alliance stands four-square on
> the side of suppression of ideas: censorship, in all its
> glory. Why are we not surprised?

For the real story on the National Alliance,

Call the National Alliance answering service.
 	Main office:	(304) 653-4600
	California:	(818) 725-3430
  	Florida:	(407) 275-6815
	Illinois:	(708) 818-4045
	Maryland:	(410) 813-4105
	Mississippi:	(601) 373-6290
	Nevada:		(702) 434-1994
	New Jersey:	(201) 697-1011
	New York:	(212) 388-2655
	North Carolina:	(919) 742-2438
	Ohio:		(216) 846-1045
	Ottawa, Canada	(613) 834-7960
	Virginia:	(703) 715-6050  or (804) 673-7350
		
or check out the Web page at: http://www.natvan.com


Sylvie Charbonneau

"We come from the land of the ice and snow
Where the midnight sun and the hot springs blow
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands
To fight the hordes, singing and crying,
'Valhalla, I am coming....'"
		
		Led Zeppelin, "The Immigrant Song"



From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 12 17:51:52 PST 1996
Article: 18584 of alt.politics.white-power
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.belgium,alt.censorship
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: The National Alliance: Suppression of Ideas
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  <4fldev$bnk@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:36:18 GMT
Lines: 28
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:18584 soc.culture.german:67970 soc.culture.netherlands:40203 soc.culture.nordic:45322 soc.culture.belgium:15341 alt.censorship:67730

Ken McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) writes:
> 
> Interesting that you recognize that reality, Mr. Kleim.
> Perhaps, since you clearly do, you can explain how the
> National Alliance's clear program of suppression of thoughts
> and ideas it finds unacceptable in its coming "Aryan nation"
> are reconciled with your apparent opposition to censorship.

To find out more about the National Alliance, call the National Alliance
answering service.

 	Main office:	(304) 653-4600
	California:	(818) 725-3430
  	Florida:	(407) 275-6815
	Illinois:	(708) 818-4045
	Maryland:	(410) 813-4105
	Mississippi:	(601) 373-6290
	Nevada:		(702) 434-1994
	New Jersey:	(201) 697-1011
	New York:	(212) 388-2655
	North Carolina:	(919) 742-2438
	Ohio:		(216) 846-1045
	Ottawa, Canada	(613) 834-7960
	Virginia:	(703) 715-6050  or (804) 673-7350
		
or check out the Web page at: http://www.natvan.com




From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Wed Feb 14 08:02:48 PST 1996
Article: 18584 of alt.politics.white-power
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.netherlands,soc.culture.nordic,soc.culture.belgium,alt.censorship
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: The National Alliance: Suppression of Ideas
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  <4fldev$bnk@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:36:18 GMT
Lines: 28
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:18584 soc.culture.german:67970 soc.culture.netherlands:40203 soc.culture.nordic:45322 soc.culture.belgium:15341 alt.censorship:67730

Ken McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) writes:
> 
> Interesting that you recognize that reality, Mr. Kleim.
> Perhaps, since you clearly do, you can explain how the
> National Alliance's clear program of suppression of thoughts
> and ideas it finds unacceptable in its coming "Aryan nation"
> are reconciled with your apparent opposition to censorship.

To find out more about the National Alliance, call the National Alliance
answering service.

 	Main office:	(304) 653-4600
	California:	(818) 725-3430
  	Florida:	(407) 275-6815
	Illinois:	(708) 818-4045
	Maryland:	(410) 813-4105
	Mississippi:	(601) 373-6290
	Nevada:		(702) 434-1994
	New Jersey:	(201) 697-1011
	New York:	(212) 388-2655
	North Carolina:	(919) 742-2438
	Ohio:		(216) 846-1045
	Ottawa, Canada	(613) 834-7960
	Virginia:	(703) 715-6050  or (804) 673-7350
		
or check out the Web page at: http://www.natvan.com




From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Wed Feb 14 23:42:03 PST 1996
Article: 23643 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,alt.activism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!imci5!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:   <4fii43$nl0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fr08k$7pv@curly.cc.emory.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:30:04 GMT
Lines: 23
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:18805 alt.revisionism:23643 alt.discrimination:42907 alt.activism:28628 comp.org.eff.talk:60226

william c anderson (libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu) writes:
> Sylvie Charbonneau (bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> 
> : So, the suppression of the arts you mention the NA would engage in, is it
> : something like the repressive laws banning certain books in Canada?  Books
> : like: The Turner Diaries, The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, Hunter,
> : Serpent's Walk, etc...  
> 
> Yeah, something like that.  Do you support or oppose such tactics?  If
> you oppose them, why does your website suggest that you support them?
> If you support them, quit your bitching and let those of us who oppose
> censorship hold our noses and do your bitching for you; that way, you
> see, you don't make yourself into a hypocrite as well as a lunatic.

I'm just exposing the hypocrisy of the anti-racists.  The same people who
chant "No free speech for Nazis" whenever they demonstrate (which is damn
rare in the winter - too incovenient, I suppose).  Their argument is that
if the message isn't consistent with what is politically correct, then it
shouldn't be allowed.  At least the Alliance is forthright in what they
want - a society free of non-white influence.

Sylvie Charbonneau



From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sat Feb 17 09:34:54 PST 1996
Article: 23878 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,alt.activism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:   <4fii43$nl0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>    <4fvsre$cr1@larry.cc.emory.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:34:49 GMT
Lines: 36
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:18996 alt.revisionism:23878 alt.discrimination:43053 alt.activism:29327 comp.org.eff.talk:60562

william c anderson (libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu) writes:
> Sylvie Charbonneau (bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> : Sara aka Perrrfect (schwartz@infinet.com) writes:
> 
> : > Ahhh... the old "two wrongs" theory. "The Government does it to us, so
> : > when we're in power, we'll do it back."
> : > 
> : > The only people who are ale to successfuly argue that theory are 4
> : > year-olds. That's the maturity level consistent with it.
> 
> : I notice you didn't answer the question.  Why is it okay for the
> : government of Canada to censor, when you condemn the NA for it?
> 
> There's no real question to answer, "Sylvie," since neither Sara nor
> anyone else on this group has asserted that it's "okay for the 
> government of Canada to censor."

You also haven't stated that you absolutely condemn the Canuck gov't.  You
mouth pretty words about being against censorship.  What have you actually
done?  You're probably an American, so you don't have to live with the
censorship laws we have in Canada. 

> I swear, can't any of you people read at all?

I can read very well.  Can you think?

Sylvie Charbonneau



"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sat Feb 17 09:34:55 PST 1996
Article: 23880 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.activism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk!news.cuhk.edu.hk!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:     
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:00:03 GMT
Lines: 65
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:18998 alt.discrimination:43055 alt.revisionism:23880 alt.activism:29337 comp.org.eff.talk:60566

Evan Leibovitch (evan@telly.telly.org) writes:
> In article ,
> 	Sylvie Charbonneau  wrote:
> 
> This "either-or" statement only demonstrates Charbonneau's limitations,
> not what is possible.
> 
> There are people who work for charitable and non-profit insitutions which
> are not funded by government, rather by private donations.

Is the Nizkor project funded by private donations?  I don't think so...
 
> There are people who have collected a bit of a nest-egg and can afford
> to take some time off to accomplish something they believe has social
> value.

According to Maclean's, Kenny used to work in a gas station.  Not much
opportunity to collect a nest-egg there...

> There are some who have a spouse or common-law relation, or other family
> who is willing to pay for living expenses.

No common-law spouse mentionned in any article I've seen.

> Ken may fit any of these descriptions, he may fit none. Point is, there are
> many options available that don't involve government. So much for evidence.
> Any other wonderful conspiracy theories?

Actually, he fits none.  Any other ideas?

> 
> It's a fine line indeed between being "racially conscious" and spreading
> hate. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your background,
> something very different to turn that into a hatred or scapegoating of
> others. Real "racial consciousness" is not incompatible with the belief
> that all people are created equal.

So the jews in Israel are a bunch of haters then?  Seems to be like the
Palestinians have been pretty downtrodden and hated there.

(snip)
 
>>If someone repeatedly sues you for the slightest thing, if
>>pressure is put on the advertisers of a certain newspaper that there will
>>be a call for a boycott on their stores, that is censorship.
> 
> No it is not. It is a lawsuit and a boycott, both of which are perfectly
> legal. I have seen pamphlets calling on whites to "boycott Jewish
> businesses", giving a list of companies owned by Jews. Why is one form
> of boycott OK but another isn't?

Back to the lawsuits for a moment here.  If someone repeatedly sues you to
try and stop you from disseminating your ideas, that, in effect, is
censorship.

About the boycott by Whites: if a few disgruntled Whites who happen to see
this pamphlet don't shop at a certain store, most times rthe store won't
even notice.  But if there pressure put on small businesses who advertise
in the 'North Shore News' by big organizations like the Canadian Jewish
Congress, the B'nai Brith, the ADL, The Canadian Human Rights Council,
etc...  that, in effect, is bullying and threatening.  What is a small
business owner going to do but acquiesce to their demands?

Sylvie Charbonneau



From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sat Feb 17 09:34:56 PST 1996
Article: 23881 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.activism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk!news.cuhk.edu.hk!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fr08k$7pv@curly.cc.emory.edu>  <4fvvjt$56g0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:04:24 GMT
Lines: 27
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:18999 alt.discrimination:43056 alt.revisionism:23881 alt.activism:29338 comp.org.eff.talk:60567

ncrccjc (ncrccjc@ibm.net) writes:
> bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:
>>william c anderson (libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu) writes:
>>> Sylvie Charbonneau (bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> 
>>I'm just exposing the hypocrisy of the anti-racists.  The same people who
>>chant "No free speech for Nazis" whenever they demonstrate (which is damn
>>rare in the winter - too incovenient, I suppose).  Their argument is that
>>if the message isn't consistent with what is politically correct, then it
>>shouldn't be allowed.  At least the Alliance is forthright in what they
>>want - a society free of non-white influence.
>>
> ncrccjc responds:
> 
> Poor sylvie, she just doesn't get it. The anti-nazi message is that
 Canadians are not interested in your hateful bile. Hatemongers
> drive a wedge into our mosaic and most Canadians wish that they would crawl 
> back from under the rocks they emerged from.

The beautiful part is that Canadians are seeing the mosaic shatter into a
million pieces.  With every new Sikh turban in the RCMP, with evey black
killer released with a slap on the wrist, White Canadians are getting more
and more angry.

Sylvie Charbonneau




From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Sun Feb 18 17:46:02 PST 1996
Article: 24068 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.activism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!spool.mu.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fvvjt$56g0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>  
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 21:20:01 GMT
Lines: 48
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19129 alt.discrimination:43115 alt.revisionism:24068 alt.activism:29727 comp.org.eff.talk:60760

Evan Leibovitch (evan@telly.telly.org) writes:
> In article ,
> 	Sylvie Charbonneau  wrote:
> 
>>The beautiful part is that Canadians are seeing the mosaic shatter into a
>>million pieces.
> 
> Not around here it hasn't.

I suppose that depends where "here" is.  In small rural communities in the
North, where the mosaic is mostly theoretical in nature, I suppose this is
true.  In the larger cities, the opposite is true.

>>With every new Sikh turban in the RCMP,
> 
> It was a Supreme Court dominated by Whites that rejected the last
> challenge to this practise, just this past week.

This is the same Supreme Court that allows killers their parole after
serving 15 years of their "life" sentence.  'Nuff said.

>>with evey black
>>killer
> 
> So the white ones don't count? Just how black were Canada's two most
> notorious killers of recent times, Marc Lepine or Paul Bernardo?

Statistically, black murder WAY out of proportion to their numbers in the
population.  Just a few names for ya:  Keith "K" Edwards, killer/torturer
of Sylvain Leduc and three other teens; Rodney Fields, killer of a nurse
in Ottawa (Joyce Evers?), Rubens Henderson, who has the honour of being
the first drive-by-murderer in Ottawa, of Nicholas Battersby.  You also
seem to forget that Marc Lepine is half-arab.

>>White Canadians are getting more and more angry.
> 
> I guess, for some, it beats having a life...

If blacks keep murdering at the rate they do now, NONE of us will have a life.

Sylvie Charbonneau

"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 19 08:37:05 PST 1996
Article: 24179 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.activism,alt.revisionism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:   <4fii43$nl0@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fr08k$7pv@curly.cc.emory.edu>  <4fvtcu$f6j@larry.cc.emory.edu>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:43:45 GMT
Lines: 32
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19208 alt.discrimination:43163 alt.activism:29912 alt.revisionism:24179 comp.org.eff.talk:60843

william c anderson (libwca@larry.cc.emory.edu) writes:
> Sylvie Charbonneau (bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
> 
> : I'm just exposing the hypocrisy of the anti-racists.  The same people who
> : chant "No free speech for Nazis" whenever they demonstrate (which is damn
> : rare in the winter - too incovenient, I suppose).  Their argument is that
> : if the message isn't consistent with what is politically correct, then it
> : shouldn't be allowed.  At least the Alliance is forthright in what they
> : want - a society free of non-white influence.
> 
> You're exposing the hypocrisy of somebody, I suppose--if the people
> you say you heard chanting "No free speech for Nazis" claim to support 
> freedom of expression.  However, nobody in this group has claimed that
> Nazis should be denied free speech; indeed, almost all of us WANT you
> to speak, as frequently as possible.  Every time you open your poor
> benighted mouths, you see, you discredit your own cause.
> 
> The way to fight evil speech is not with censorship, "Sylvie," but
> with more speech.  This is a principle dear to the hearts of most 
> of the people who's "hypocrisy" you claim to be exposing.  Sorry;
> you lose again.

Then let's have an open discussion then, on any subject.  Let's start with
the Holocaust for example.  If free speech is indeed your highest ideal,
have you written to the servers who are restricting web access to certain
groups?  Have you written the German government to protest the charges
against Fred Lauck?  Have you lobbied the Canadian government to stop
censoring books?  Until you have done all these things, your words will be
hollow.

Sylvie Charbonneau



From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 19 08:37:06 PST 1996
Article: 24189 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,comp.org.eff.talk,alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:         <4g8hn8$o5p@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:35:25 GMT
Lines: 71
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19216 alt.discrimination:43166 alt.revisionism:24189 comp.org.eff.talk:60851 alt.activism:29924

Laura Finsten (finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca) writes:
> bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:
>>
>>Jeanne Kowalewski (jeannek@darkwing.uoregon.edu) writes:
> 
> [edit]
> 
>>> Heh! It seems that you don't exist either, "Sylvie." Furthermore, there's
>>> no mention of your Mighty Morphin' older/younger/older kids. So, would you
>>> like to explain how Maclean's was 100% accurate about Ken McVay's family
>>> situation yet failed to describe "the family man" Les' situation
>>> correctly? 
>>
>>You seem to forget that Kenny was interviewed for Macleans.  We didn't
>>speak to them.
> 
> Perhaps the interviewer was uninterested in Ken McVay's family situation,
> since it is rather difficult to see how it would be directly relevant to
> the story.

So why would our family situation be  "directly relevant to the story"? 

  Or perhaps Mr. McVay declined to answer questions about his
> family situation because he failed to see how it would be directly relevant
> to the story.  Whose business is it but his, after all?  

Oh, I get it now.  If Kenny "bingo" McVay declines to answer questions,
that makes him noble.  If we decline to answer questions, that makes us
evasive.  Jeepers, I get it now.  It's the old double standard...
 
>>> In the 5/8/95 issue of Maclean's, George "leaching off mommy and daddy for
>>> the white race" Burdi's parents were mentioned, as was Sue Pierce and
>>> other family members of whit-prodders. Why are you not mentioned?
>>
>>See above.  We don't speak to media types, ever since the SRC (Societe
>>Radio Canada) misled Les into giving an interview supposedly about
>>immigration, but really about the Heritage Front, of which we are not
>>members.  After a few "opening questions" about the WP movement, they
>>said, "OK that's a wrap".  Ever since that day, we don't speak to the media.
> 
> This is rather ironic coming right after a complaint about how white
> supremacists never get any media access.  Is the Heritage Front uninterested
> in matters having to do with immigration? 

Why not ask the Heritage Front, instead of National Alliance members?

 Mightn't the similar views of
> white supremacists who belong to another organisation be of interest?

Yes, but why wasn't immigration even touched on, when that was supposedly
the purpose of the interview?

> Gee, here was an opportunity to tell everybody about your great ethnic
> cleansing programme and you let it pass by??  I guess the real issue is
> not access to the media, but control over what the media says about
> white supremacist groups and their so-called policy platforms?  

Face it, the media will say whatever it is told to say by whoever is
holding the chequebook.  We could spell out our platform to the letter,
and they would still manage to twist words around.  Or have you never
heard of an editing suite?

Sylvie Charbonneau


"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 19 08:37:07 PST 1996
Article: 24191 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,alt.activism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>    <4g8lec$kqu@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:45:28 GMT
Lines: 37
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19217 alt.discrimination:43167 alt.revisionism:24191 alt.activism:29927 comp.org.eff.talk:60852

Ken McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) writes:

(Sylvie writes)
 
>>Statistically, black murder WAY out of proportion to their numbers in the
>>population.  Just a few names for ya:  Keith "K" Edwards, killer/torturer
>>of Sylvain Leduc and three other teens; Rodney Fields, killer of a nurse
>>in Ottawa (Joyce Evers?), Rubens Henderson, who has the honour of being
>>the first drive-by-murderer in Ottawa, of Nicholas Battersby.  You also
>>seem to forget that Marc Lepine is half-arab.
> 
> Translation: White guys don't count - we can ignore them, as
> it does not serve our political agenda.

Here's another name for you Kenny.  Just got it out of the paper this
morning.  Adrian Kinkead was picked up in Florida, cowering on a
neighbor's balcony when the cops stormed his apartment.  He is the prime
suspect in the Aug.16 slyings of teenage sisters Tamara and Marsha Ottey
and the Oct.23 killing of Dimitrija Trajceski, a subway ticket collector. 
Trajceski was beaten and bludgeoned to death in his cubicle at work.  A
video camera captured the whole scene.  Kinkead is also wanted for two
sexual assaults in Toronto.  They actually have a DNA match for this one.

Nice guy to have as a neighbor, isn't it Kenny?  What the hell, let's
bring in more non-white immigrants, let's have even more slap-on-the-wrist  
judgements, let's have even more "human" right commissions tell us that
all Whites are inherently racist and that all non-whites are inherently
pure.  Times, they are a-changin...

Sylvie Charbonneau

"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 19 08:37:07 PST 1996
Article: 24192 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.activism,alt.discrimination,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fvvjt$56g0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>    <4g8jcd$o5p@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:00:37 GMT
Lines: 76
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19218 alt.revisionism:24192 alt.activism:29930 alt.discrimination:43170 comp.org.eff.talk:60854

Laura Finsten (finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca) writes:
> bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:
> 
>>Statistically, black murder WAY out of proportion to their numbers in the
>>population.  Just a few names for ya:  Keith "K" Edwards, killer/torturer
>>of Sylvain Leduc and three other teens; Rodney Fields, killer of a nurse
>>in Ottawa (Joyce Evers?), Rubens Henderson, who has the honour of being
>>the first drive-by-murderer in Ottawa, of Nicholas Battersby.  You also
>>seem to forget that Marc Lepine is half-arab.
> 
> Statistically?  Please do post the statistics that support this outrageous
> claim.  And do tell us your source.  This will be of paramount interest
> since crime statistics are neither recorded nor tabulated by race.

Quite true, at least for Canada.  Let's take a look at the States, shall
we?  In California, 40% of black males are either on parole, in jail, or
awaiting trial, compared to 11% of Hispanics and 5% of Whites.  This was
in the papers and on the radio last week.  Hell, even Klanwatch admits
that over 50% of racially motivated murders are committed by blacks on
Whites.  And this is an organization dedicated to hunting out racists. 
Can you imagine what the stats would be like if they were neutral?

> Speaking of names of alleged and/or convicted murderers, since you think
> a couple of names makes a convincing case, who is that fellow in Toronto
> presently on trial for the slaying a couple of years ago of that little
> girl? 

Can you be a bit more specific?  I have no idea who you're referring to. 
Are you talking about Christine Jessop?  As I recall, the man who served
10 years for her murder was released and cleared of all charges.  A DNA
test proved him innocent.

 And is it Clifford Olson who is serving infinity for the sex slayings
> of more than a dozen children?  And what was the name of that fellow in
> Saskatchewan who was convicted of killing a native man in his pawn shop
> but then somehow was mysteriously released?  And then there is Colin
> Thatcher, and of course Paul Bernardo, ....  the list game is pointless.

You miss the point.  Yes, these murders are horrific.  But some of these
murderers have been locked up for years, and some, like Clifford Olson and
Paul Bernardo, will never again see the light of day.  The murderers I
named all committed their crimes within the last 6 months.  There has been
a HUGE number of black multiple murderers in the last six months.  Can you
name as many Whites?  Can you not see the difference?  Blacks are a
MINORITY, yet they commit the MAJORITY of crimes.

Here's a few more facts on what Keith "K" Edwards and his merry gang of
thugs, know as "Ace Crew" (all black, by the way) did.  They abducted
Sylvain Leduc in his own home.  They kidnapped three other girls.  They
took them to an apartment.  There, they bound their captives, beat up on
Sylvain for a few hours, and tortured him with a hot curling iron.  They
sexually assaulted one of the girls with this same curling iron.  She
needed at least one months hospitalization to recover from her injuries. 
After torturing the other teens for a while, they strangled Sylvain Leduc.

This same "Ace Crew" went out joyriding the day before, abducted someone
else, shot him in the head "execution style".  After they left him for
dead, he was able to crawl and get help.  He required extensive
hospitalization and surgery.

Sounds like a great bunch of guys.  Tell me, if this was White skinheads
doing this, what would the media and cops be saying?  They'd be busting in
doors, looking for "caches" of weapons, confiscating "hate" literature,
bugging phones and harassing the skinheads at their work and school.  But
hey, this is black street gangs.  We can't go too heavy on them, or the
blacks will riot (again).

Sylvie Charbonneau


"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Mon Feb 19 08:37:08 PST 1996
Article: 24193 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,alt.activism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:         
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 13:13:30 GMT
Lines: 70
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19220 alt.revisionism:24193 alt.discrimination:43171 alt.activism:29935 comp.org.eff.talk:60855

Jeanne Kowalewski (jeannek@darkwing.uoregon.edu) writes:
> In article , bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
> (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:

(big snip for brevity and sanity's sake)
 
> * You seem to forget that Kenny was interviewed for Macleans.  We didn't
> * speak to them.  
> 
> I suppose that Hector the Rotweiler *was* interviewed at length, wasn't
> he? How did the author know the dog's name and breed, but had no clue that
> you or your might morphin' kids exist? How old are those kids again?

Simple.  They knew the dog's name because I was giving him a command to
back away from the door when I answered it.  As for the breed of the dog,
it could have been a toy poodle, and that ninny would still have seen a
"Rotweiler"(sic).  It makes for a more ominous story, doncha know.
> 
> Interesting. Les said that he was prohibited from talking to the media by
> your fearless leader (Dr. Pierce) and rules from the National Alliance
> handbook. You kids should get your stories straight. Is Les still making
> you answer the door armed with a baseball bat while he hides from the
> media?

If the media actually came calling when he was home, instead of at work
(you know, that thing that most anti-racists don't do), then he would
answer the door.  But since they come during work hours, I answer the door. 
Oh, and it's not a baseball bat.  It's a "bo-ken", or as you would know
it, a wooden sword used for practicing swordplay (a leftover from my
ken-jitsu days).  With all the home invasions happening in Ottawa, it's
not a bad idea to have some sort of weapon near the door.

As for not speaking to the media, the Alliance states that we shouldn't
speak to the media without checking with Dr.Pierce first.  We just take
that a step further and don't speak to them.  We refer them to the Head
Office.

> * But I'll ask you, since you seem to know everything: does Kenny have a
> * wife?  Betcha dollars to doughnuts that he doesn't.  Who would tolerate
> * someone who spends 16 hours a day being an internet warrior...
> 
> I don't know everything, nor have I read the article about Ken. If he does
> have a spouse, maybe she's an internet warrior, too. When you're not
> chasing rugrats or reading Harlequin Romance novels all day, you can use
> your time for lots of other stuff.

Harlequin Romance novels?   BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!  That was almost funny
Jeannie.  If Kenny does have a wife, why haven't we seen her internet
battles anywhere?  Lotsa people seem to have hitched their wagon to the
Nizkor project.  However, I have yet to see a Mrs.Bingo McVay.
 
> The point remains that you are using _Maclean's_ as a source to say
> negative things about Ken McVay, and then you balk at the magazine's
> accuracy in describing your family. If _Maclean's_ did not fully depict
> your family situation, could it possibly have been incomplete or
> inaccurate in describing Ken's?

Once more, then I give up.  Kenny was interviewed.  We were not.  A ticked
off reporter will make up things in spite.

They were accurate about the colour of the bungalow.

Sylvie Charbonneau

"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb 22 12:13:00 PST 1996
Article: 24552 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:           <4ga7k9$8gp@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gcpdt$ep6@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 13:04:10 GMT
Lines: 85
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19525 alt.revisionism:24552 alt.activism:30641

Laura Finsten (finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca) writes:
> bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:

>  [edit]
> 
> Gosh, for someone who gets all hot under the collar about unfair and
> inaccurate stereotyping of skinheads, you sure are ready to jump to 
> conclusions about the face of "anti-racists".  Gee, they sound a lot
> like young folks of any ilk.  So having purple hair or a pierced nose
> is a symbol that someone doesn't work? 

Would you hire someone with purple hair?  I sure wouldn't.

 Maybe the ones who have made
> such a strong impression on you sell papers for a living (there are 
> people who do eke out a living that way, you know).  Perhaps we could
> take a survey of those here who would describe themselves as anti-racists
> to see how accurate your stereotype is.  I know a lot of people who are
> not racist (at least in the sense that you are), but I don't know a single
> soul with purple hair, nor can I claim to have any close friends with
> pierced noses.  

The head honcho (or is that honchoette) for the ARA in Ottawa is Alicia
Reckzin(sp?).  She is constantly on the news screeching about racism.  Her
hairdos are, to put it kindly, rather bizarre.  Her most memorable one was
when she dyed her hair a bright shade of fushia.  She is rarely seen
without her nose ring, and always looks scruffy, even when on TV for
planned interviews.
> 
> The demonstrations in Toronto in front of Queen's Park when Harris
> announced the cuts to welfare drew a far more diverse crowd than you
> are suggesting.  Many of them were single mothers who can't make ends
> meet on a minimum wage job if they have to pay for day-care.  But I'm
> sure you know better.

I know that most of the people protesting the welfare cuts were
International Socialists.  Do you deny this?  They had them bussed in from
every corner of the province, just like they do for every other "protest".
>>
>>See, there's something called "cause and effect" that you haven't though
>>of.  We used to give interviews, with the Head Office's consent.  Then,
>>the SRC decided to play dirty.  Since then, we don't give interviews.  Why
>>is this so hard for you to understand?  If the SRC hadn't lied to us, we
>>would probably still be giving interviews.
> 
> I have no idea who/what the SRC is/are.  The media are constantly publishing
> things about people without their consent, or haven't you noticed that?

For your information, SRC is Societe Radio Canada, the french equivalent
of the CBC.
> 
>>But yet, our wish for privacy is irrelevant, right?  We didn't ask for the
>>Ottawa Citizen or MacLean's to describe our house, did we?  We didn't ask
>>for MacLean's to name our dog, did we?  Had we wished so, we would have
>>given them an interview.
> 
> Gosh, for someone who doesn't believe in "equal rights", you sure do
> expect equality of treatment under the media.  Why is that a reasonable
> expectation, given your "philosophy" about equality in other spheres?
> I suppose you feel threatened now that people know your house is white
> (I'm sure it is the only white house in the area).  And that your dog
> is at risk.  Get a life.  If you don't want to be the object of media
> scrutiny, get off the lunatic fringe where you advocate violent 
> revolutionary change to the fabric of Canadian society.

Ask Alicia Recksin, that great voice of tolerance, about how she feels
about murdering racists.  I believe the quote is "It's OK to kill a nazi,
in the self-defence mode".  Yet, I haven't heard anyone say a peep about
this.  To her, self-defence might mean someone fights back when her and
her motley crew trash their residence (like what happened in Toronto).  It
can mean fighting back when 10 anti-racists attack one lone skinhead (as
happened in Toronto, yet again).
  
I find your hypocrisy amazing.  You claim to champion equal right for all.
 Yet you don't condemn violence when it comes from the politically correct
side of the argument.

Sylvie Charbonneau

"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb 22 23:06:45 PST 1996
Article: 24606 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.activism,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fvvjt$56g0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>    <4g8jcd$o5p@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4g8ih5$4dc@daryl.scsn.net> <4ga8lb$8gp@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gdj0n$7mu@nimitz.fibr.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:09:53 GMT
Lines: 48
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19577 alt.activism:30737 alt.discrimination:43324 alt.revisionism:24606 comp.org.eff.talk:61167


pgroff (pgroff@txdirect.net) writes:
> bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:
> 
>>Boy, you must reaaly be new at this anti-racist gig.  Klanwatch was set up
>>to keep tabs on the Klan.  They were compiling statistics on how many
>>racially motivated murders occurred in the States.  Did they ever get a
>>shock to realize that a large proportion of them were committed by blacks
>>on Whites.  46%, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
>>Sylvie Charbonneau
> 
> Miz Charbonneau, Klanwatch was set up to keep tabs on the Klan, the
> klan is a racist, group of bigot, therefore the Klan keeps tabs on
> Racists bigots, not crime statistics, which are not racially
> motivated.

  

Are you people really this thick?  Once more around the maypole...

Klanwatch was set up by the to WATCH the Klan, not help them,
not encourage them.  Klanwatch reported any dirt they could find to the
FBI.  How much clearer do I have to make this?

And these are the internet warriors trying to do battle?  What a joke!

Sylvie Charbonneau


Call the National Alliance answering service.
 	Main office:	(304) 653-4600
	California:	(818) 725-3430
  	Florida:	(407) 275-6815
	Illinois:	(708) 818-4045
	Maryland:	(410) 813-4105
	Mississippi:	(601) 373-6290
	Nevada:		(702) 434-1994
	New Jersey:	(201) 697-1011
	New York:	(212) 388-2655
	North Carolina:	(919) 742-2438
	Ohio:		(216) 846-1045
	Ottawa:		(613) 834-7960
	Virginia:	(703) 715-6050  or (804) 673-7350
		
or check out the Web page at: http://www.natvan.com




From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Thu Feb 22 23:06:46 PST 1996
Article: 24631 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  <4gcpdt$ep6@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gfffg$8pt@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4gga1c$clb@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:48:53 GMT
Lines: 57
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19601 alt.revisionism:24631 alt.activism:30798


Ken "bingo!" McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) writes:
> In article <4gfffg$8pt@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, 
> 
>>bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) snivels:
> 
>>>She's not "jumping to conclusions", or "stereotyping", Fester.  She's
>>>relaying ACCURATE information about anti-racist types in Ottawa.
> 
> Horsepucky, Mr. Griswold. I personally met over 300
> anti-racists during my Ottawa visit - spoke to them, had
> coffee with them, exchanged greetings, and generally
> socialized  with them for several hours.

> Not a single purple head or nose ring in the lot, but I do
> recall at least one neurosurgeon.

Then I assume that Alicia Reckzin and her merry bunch of goons weren't
invited?  But, but, I thought you guys were all supposed to be friends...
 
> Ergo, your picture of Ms. Charbonneau's idea of ACCURATE
> information is on a par with _your_ idea of ACCURATE
> information - i.e. make it up as you go along, and hope it
> won't be noted.

Why don't you check out the pictures on the front of the Ottawa Sun and
The Ottawa Citizen for May 30th, 1993.  Tell me those are "normal kids"
throwing excrement at the nice police officers.  Explain to me why they
all look like they just have a passing acquaintance with soap.

>>Ah, so if Ms. Charbonneau presents anecdotal impressions is it accurate
>>information, but if I do, it is something else?
> 
>>>> Gee, they sound a lot like young folks of any ilk. 
> 
>>>Where HAVE you been getting your pictures of "young folks", Fester?
> 
> She is surrounded by them, I assure you, at least 5 days a
> week, Mr. Griswold. Tens of thousands of them, I should think.
> I'd say that qualifies her as an informed observer.

I'd say that the large proportion of "young folks" she meets in her daily
travels aren't representative of rabid anti-racists in general.  Why don't
you try getting your cyber-butt out of the computer chair and actually
going out into the real world to make first-hand observation?  Then we can
have the truth come out...

Sylvie Charbonneau

"We come from the land of the ice and snow
Where the midnight sun and the hot springs blow
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands
To fight the hordes, singing and crying,
'Valhalla, I am coming....'"
		
		Led Zeppelin, "The Immigrant Song"



From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Feb 23 07:12:02 PST 1996
Article: 24606 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.activism,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References: <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fvvjt$56g0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>    <4g8jcd$o5p@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4g8ih5$4dc@daryl.scsn.net> <4ga8lb$8gp@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gdj0n$7mu@nimitz.fibr.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:09:53 GMT
Lines: 48
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19577 alt.activism:30737 alt.discrimination:43324 alt.revisionism:24606 comp.org.eff.talk:61167


pgroff (pgroff@txdirect.net) writes:
> bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:
> 
>>Boy, you must reaaly be new at this anti-racist gig.  Klanwatch was set up
>>to keep tabs on the Klan.  They were compiling statistics on how many
>>racially motivated murders occurred in the States.  Did they ever get a
>>shock to realize that a large proportion of them were committed by blacks
>>on Whites.  46%, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
>>Sylvie Charbonneau
> 
> Miz Charbonneau, Klanwatch was set up to keep tabs on the Klan, the
> klan is a racist, group of bigot, therefore the Klan keeps tabs on
> Racists bigots, not crime statistics, which are not racially
> motivated.

  

Are you people really this thick?  Once more around the maypole...

Klanwatch was set up by the to WATCH the Klan, not help them,
not encourage them.  Klanwatch reported any dirt they could find to the
FBI.  How much clearer do I have to make this?

And these are the internet warriors trying to do battle?  What a joke!

Sylvie Charbonneau


Call the National Alliance answering service.
 	Main office:	(304) 653-4600
	California:	(818) 725-3430
  	Florida:	(407) 275-6815
	Illinois:	(708) 818-4045
	Maryland:	(410) 813-4105
	Mississippi:	(601) 373-6290
	Nevada:		(702) 434-1994
	New Jersey:	(201) 697-1011
	New York:	(212) 388-2655
	North Carolina:	(919) 742-2438
	Ohio:		(216) 846-1045
	Ottawa:		(613) 834-7960
	Virginia:	(703) 715-6050  or (804) 673-7350
		
or check out the Web page at: http://www.natvan.com




From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Feb 23 07:12:03 PST 1996
Article: 24631 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:  <4gcpdt$ep6@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gfffg$8pt@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4gga1c$clb@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:48:53 GMT
Lines: 57
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19601 alt.revisionism:24631 alt.activism:30798


Ken "bingo!" McVay OBC (kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca) writes:
> In article <4gfffg$8pt@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, 
> 
>>bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les Griswold) snivels:
> 
>>>She's not "jumping to conclusions", or "stereotyping", Fester.  She's
>>>relaying ACCURATE information about anti-racist types in Ottawa.
> 
> Horsepucky, Mr. Griswold. I personally met over 300
> anti-racists during my Ottawa visit - spoke to them, had
> coffee with them, exchanged greetings, and generally
> socialized  with them for several hours.

> Not a single purple head or nose ring in the lot, but I do
> recall at least one neurosurgeon.

Then I assume that Alicia Reckzin and her merry bunch of goons weren't
invited?  But, but, I thought you guys were all supposed to be friends...
 
> Ergo, your picture of Ms. Charbonneau's idea of ACCURATE
> information is on a par with _your_ idea of ACCURATE
> information - i.e. make it up as you go along, and hope it
> won't be noted.

Why don't you check out the pictures on the front of the Ottawa Sun and
The Ottawa Citizen for May 30th, 1993.  Tell me those are "normal kids"
throwing excrement at the nice police officers.  Explain to me why they
all look like they just have a passing acquaintance with soap.

>>Ah, so if Ms. Charbonneau presents anecdotal impressions is it accurate
>>information, but if I do, it is something else?
> 
>>>> Gee, they sound a lot like young folks of any ilk. 
> 
>>>Where HAVE you been getting your pictures of "young folks", Fester?
> 
> She is surrounded by them, I assure you, at least 5 days a
> week, Mr. Griswold. Tens of thousands of them, I should think.
> I'd say that qualifies her as an informed observer.

I'd say that the large proportion of "young folks" she meets in her daily
travels aren't representative of rabid anti-racists in general.  Why don't
you try getting your cyber-butt out of the computer chair and actually
going out into the real world to make first-hand observation?  Then we can
have the truth come out...

Sylvie Charbonneau

"We come from the land of the ice and snow
Where the midnight sun and the hot springs blow
The hammer of the gods will drive our ships to new lands
To fight the hordes, singing and crying,
'Valhalla, I am coming....'"
		
		Led Zeppelin, "The Immigrant Song"



From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Feb 23 07:12:04 PST 1996
Article: 24689 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!imci3!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:         <4ga7k9$8gp@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gcpdt$ep6@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> 
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 13:31:33 GMT
Lines: 123
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19653 alt.revisionism:24689 alt.activism:30879

Laura Finsten (finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca) writes:
> bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:
> 
>>Would you hire someone with purple hair?  I sure wouldn't.

> If they had what it took to do the job, I would hire someone with purple
> hair.  And I would hire someone with "nonwhite" skin, too.  Would you?

Actually, I did once.  And I hired someone with epilepsy as well.  Gee, do
I get an OBC for that? 
 
> [edit]
> 
> So from this one person, you generalise to characterise all "anti-racists"
> as people with purple hair and pierced noses.  Figures.  You are, after all,
> obsessed with things superficial to all disregard for content.  This is
> demonstrated well by your remarks here.

As I said to Kenny, just pick up a copy of the Ottawa Sun or Ottawa
Citizen from May 30th, 1993.  Take a good, hard look at the "young folks"
featured there.  
  
>>I know that most of the people protesting the welfare cuts were
>>International Socialists.  Do you deny this? [edit for brevity]
> 
> Oh here goes the ol' "I know" litany, again.  The only "sincere demonstrators"
> for you, Ms. Charbonneau, are racist demonstrators, I gather.  Yes, I do
> indeed question your totally unsupported assertion that "most of the people
> protesting the welfare cuts were International Socialists".  Unsupported
> assertion, Ms. Charbonneau.  Your modus operandi.  

All you have to do is call the I.S.  They always organize busses from
every corner of the province to go protest at Queen's Park or Parliament
Hill.  They always advertise in their Socialist Worker about where they'll
be protesting next.  They always put up flyers (illegally, I might add) on
downtown hydro poles advertising the next rally, where to meet, and how to
get there on one of their chartered busses.  The rally in TO was no exception.
 
> I suppose you see all organised labour as part of your scary, spooky 
> "International Socialists", too. 

I think unions are an expensive waste of taxpayers time and money.  They
have no purpose in today's economy.

 I'm sure you believe that ZOG is putting 
> up the money to bus several tens of thousands of people to Hamilton this 
> weekend to demonstrate, and that all those Jew-dupes would never think of 
> protesting government policies that are deleteriously affecting their lives 
> and the lives of their children  on their own.  You really do believe that 
> people are sheep, and that, I guess, is why you are deluded enough to think 
> that people are going to fall for the bull roar you tout as "social analysis" 
> and "national policy".

Let's just see how many OPSEU members ACTUALLY walk off the job on Monday.
 My guess is that it's going to be a small minority. 
 
> Watch your television, Ms. Charbonneau, look for the black helicopters
> bringing in Alexa McDonough and the OFL leaders.  Nah, better off spending
> your time on the X-files.  

X-files?  Never seen it.  Not much of a TV watcher, except for the news.

> [edit]
> 
>>Ask Alicia Recksin, that great voice of tolerance, about how she feels
>>about murdering racists.  I believe the quote is "It's OK to kill a nazi,
>>in the self-defence mode".  Yet, I haven't heard anyone say a peep about
>>this.[edit for brevity, I have no idea what you are blathering about]
> 
> Is this the 5'2" woman who had her nose broken when she was kicked in the
> face by several racists?

Umm, more like one.  And to quote your words right back at you, if she
doesn't want to get hurt, "she should stay off the lunatic fringe".

It seems Alicia isn't the sweet 'n cuddly little anti-racist she tries to
pass herself off to be.  She frequently goes to Hull area bars, trying to
instigate trouble with a few of her unwashed friends.  At one point, six
of her group tried to have a bouncer fired from his job for having
unpopular views about non-whites.  A pushing match ensued, and this one
bouncer ejected the whole lot of them, rather forcefully.  The funny part
is that they used her as a battering ram to push her ARA ruffians out.

  Our government does permit killing in self-
> defence.  Since I don't have the quotation, nor do I trust your "belief"
> about the quotation, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to discuss 
> what she might or might not have said (and in what context?).  

Shall I dig out the quote for you?  It aired on the Shirley show about 2
years ago.  I have a copy of the transcript.

>>I find your hypocrisy amazing.  You claim to champion equal right for all.
>> Yet you don't condemn violence when it comes from the politically correct
>>side of the argument.
> 
> Huh???  More astonishing logic and nonargument.  Since this is the first
> mention of "violence from the politically correct side", I can hardly have
> had an opportunity to say anything about it.  I don't condone violence from
> anyone, Ms. Charbonneau, and your insinuation that I do is based on nothing
> more than the same sort of hot air you blow here in the name of argument.
> If there is any hypocrisy, it is your suggestion that any violence that does
> exist somehow justifies racist violence.  You sound rather like a six year
> old child who, when admonished for kicking her younger brother, cries "well
> he hit me!"  Your argument impresses me about as much.

I don't justify violence.  However, Whites are getting sick and tired of
trying to bend to the political correctness that is permeating our
society.  When we don't fight back, we find that the boot is stomping down
even harder on our necks.  When we do fight back, it just "justifies" even
more repressive measures against us.  Face it, with every new hate crimes
squad (that NEVER investigates black-on-White crime), with every forced
"sensitivity class", with every affirmative action hiring, people are
getting more and more steamed.  The scary part is that one-worlders aren't
realising this.

Sylvie Charbonneau

"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Feb 23 13:56:55 PST 1996
Article: 24739 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!helix.net!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.uoregon.edu!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
References:         <4ga7k9$8gp@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gcpdt$ep6@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> 
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 22:25:16 GMT
Lines: 53
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19714 alt.revisionism:24739 alt.activism:30956


Laura Finsten (finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca) writes:

(big, huge snip )
> 
> When people feel passionately about something, they generally make time
> to do what they feel they need to do.  I'm not surprised that you brought
> up the unfortunate incident related to Canadian university students'
> national day of protest.  You, like CTV, think that the unruly actions 
> of about 100 or fewer (and only 4 people were charged in relation to the
> incident) are more "significant" than the fact that across the country
> THOUSANDS of students protested peacefully.  In Montreal, 5,000 students
> protested without incident.  There were protests without incident in
> Vancouver and many other cities, but you jump on that.  Figures.

I was waiting for this.  I knew this argument would come up.  So you think
the actions of 100 or fewer people, with only 4 charged, is OK.  What then
do you make of the May 29th "riot" that happened in Ottawa when the ARA
protested at a rock concert held by skinheads?   As I recall, there were
about 70 skinheads vs a crowd of about 150 anti-racists.  There was no
damage wrought by the skinheads on any public or private property.  There
was a skirmish, and the ARA was scattered.  A few people were charged. 
Is it OK?  C'mon, expose your hypocrisy to the world for all to see...

(snip)
> 
> Is it possible that Macleans was willing to guard Mr. McVay's privacy 
> because there have been incidents in which people vocally criticising
> white supremacist groups have been attacked (and even murdered)?

Oh, and that's never happened the other way around?  The trashing og Gary
Schipper's house in Toronto comes to mind... hell, they even have the
perps on videotape, but there were never any charges pressed by the cops. 
Why do you think that is?
   
> I note that in another post you whine that your family life has no more 
> bearing on what you do than Mr. McVay's has on what he does.  Yet your 
> wife (Ms. Charbonneau is your wife, is she not?) posts here rather regularly.  
> The content of her posts suggests that she shares your views.  If she shares 
> your views, it seems reasonable to conclude that she is active in whatever 
> "groups" you are, does it not?

Yes, and your point is...?

Sylvie Charbonneau


"The fate of every last White man, woman and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"

					Robert Mathews


From bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA Fri Feb 23 23:33:39 PST 1996
Article: 24798 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.discrimination,alt.activism,comp.org.eff.talk
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!nott!cunews!freenet.carleton.ca!FreeNet.Carleton.CA!bn861
From: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Subject:  Re: Louis Beam, Censorship and the National Alliance
Message-ID: 
Sender: bn861@freenet3.carleton.ca (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:59:56 GMT
Lines: 155
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:19750 alt.revisionism:24798 alt.discrimination:43393 alt.activism:31048 comp.org.eff.talk:61282

Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination,alt.activism,alt.revisionism,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Louis Beam, Censorship, and the National Alliance
Reply-To: bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau)
References: <4foqdf$p6m@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>  <4fvvjt$56g0@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>    <4g8jcd$o5p@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gab1t$8gp@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>  <4gcs4m$ep6@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet

Laura Finsten (finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca) writes:
>> bn861@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Sylvie Charbonneau) wrote:
>>
>>Only an idiot would think that murder rates and imprisonment rates are
>>seperate.  A large chunk of murderers go to jail, even if only for a few
>>months.
> 
> I did not say that they are separate.  Only an idiot would assume that they
> are the same.  Do cite some specific cases where murderers have gone to
> jail "only for a few months".  The ones that ruminate in my memory are
> domestic violence, husbands killing their wives.  I'm sure you have access
> to some magical data bank that tells you that most of those cases also
> involve "non-whites", and that the "nonwhite" spouse killers get more
> lenient sentences than the "white" men who kill their spouses.  Did you
> read the report about racism in the Ontario justice system, Ms. Charbonneau?
> Did you read the part about how, for the same crime, "nonwhites" are meted
> out longer, more punitive sentences than "whites" are? 

You also fail to mention that that report didn't figure in the accused's
previous record.  OF COURSE a White man who has a clean record will get a
shorter sentence for the same crime that a black man with a record will.

>>Yet, when blame is to be passed out for whatever wrongs were visited upon
>>blacks during slavery, they don't hesitate to lump me in with people whose
>>"skin is remotely the same shade as the skin" of those former slaveowners.
>> Never mind that none of my ancestors lived in the US or owned slaves. 
>>I'm White, and thus, automatically responsible for anything that goes
>>wrong with blacks.  I'm automatically responsible for their teen pregnancy
>>rates, their crime rates, their single parent family rates, their drug use
>>and trafficking rates, etc...  you people are great at assigning blame,
>>but slow to assigning responsibility.
> 
> "You people are great at assigning blame, but slow to assigning responsiblity"?
> Well, this might be a little too subtle for me.  "You" are not "lumped in with
> former slave owners".

But yet, I'm still responsible for blacks getting longer sentences for
crimes, right?  Because that's what the thrust of your earlier argument was.

  As a self-professed racist, Ms. Charbonneau, surely you
> cannot absolve yourself of any responsibility for what racial tensions and
> resulting problems might exist in Canadian society.  The relationship between
> racism and social marginalisation is probably far too complicated for you to
> grasp.  You don't have the imagination to see that maybe, just maybe, people
> who are visibly identifiable and automatically assumed to violent, have a
> greater propensity toward crime, immoral, inferior, unintelligent, lazy and
> no good end up marginalised in society.  And that marginalisation itself has
> profound effects.  You don't know enough or are unable to grasp the notion
> that slavery in the United States and Canada destroyed the fundamental social
> fabric of those whom it dehumanised, and that once slavery was abolished,
> years of marginalisation made it damn hard to reverse that.  You have no sense
> of history, you just have your myopic hatred.

Ooh, make aspersions to my (supposed)lack of intelligence.  Great debating
technique.

You probably don't realise that I used to be non-racist.  To me, race was
a side issue.  Everyone was an individual.  It's only when I moved to
Ottawa from a small (99% White) town that I realised that there is
something to race.  I worked for a while at the downtown YM-YWCA.  I saw
many different people, of many different races.  For the most part, the
non-Whites I saw there were lazy, thieving, drug-smoking idiots.  The
Whites were a little bit down on their luck, but they didn't resort to
vandalism, crack, fistfights and theft the way the blacks did.  The White
residents usually moved out of the Y within 1 month, supposedly on to a
better place to live.  I think the incident that made me open my eyes was
on day near the end of my employment there.  On this one day, blacks had
taken knives to the leather awnings over the windows, causing about 1200$
damage.  They were caught.  Another black was caught trying to steal food
>from  the cafeteria.  One big welfare mammy trooped into the laundry area
where the towels for the gym are washed, and demanded that I do her
laundry (we didn't do the residents laundry).  When I explained this to
her, she started screeching about racism.  Then, while waiting for an
elevator to go up a few floors, I had the clincher: when the doors opened,
a black wearing a lava-lava (a kind of skirt for men) was urinating IN 
the elevator, with no concern for others.  As I stared in utter shock, he
shook himself off, dropped his skirt and strolled out of the elevator, as
happy as a clam.  Talk about your eye-opening experiences.  Fortunately, I
didn't work there much longer after that.
>>
>>And you say I'm vague????  Here's the liberal argument, thrown right back
>>at you:  SOURCE, PLEASE!!!!!
> 
> Toronto Star, Saturday or Sunday edition, back page of (first?) section.  I
> don't save my newspapers.  

Then don't make an argument if you can't even remember the name of the
killer and the victim. 
 
>>These cases were all in the paper THIS WEEK.  How much clearer do I have
>>to be?
> 
> I guess I wasn't clear.  My point was that "this week" is not representative
> of anything except this week.  Do you understand that now?

Do you understand that there wasn't ANY White killers in the paper this
week, yet it was chock full of black ones.  Hell, even Snoop Doggy Dogg
(an appropriate name, if I've ever heard one) was found INNOCENT of
killing a gang member.  He admitted blowing the guy away, but it was in
self-defence, you know.  YEAH, RIGHT!!!  What was he doing with a gun, anyway?

(snip)
 
>>How many skinhead (or even White) gangs have been charged with murder?  I
>>can think of one instance in which Whites murdered a black.  I think it
>>was in Garden Grove.  The media is still beating that one to death.  But
>>you almost never hear of that young three year old White girl who was shot
>>when her daddy drove down the wrong street.
> 
> This is sheer speculation again, on your part.  Why, though, do you assume
> that the only violence perpetrated by skinhead gangs that "counts" is the
> murder of someone who is not white?  How about the former radio announcer
> in Winnipeg (who now lives in Edmonton) who was beaten badly and blinded
> by a group of skins?  How about the murder in Seattle? Or are you now going
> to limit yourself to Canadian cases?  

What murder in Seattle?  That's a pretty big city.  Be specific.
   
>>Let's assume that your reasoning is correct.  So what if they are
>>affiliated with a group that "promotes violence"?  Which is worse, a group
>>that promotes violence ( and yet strangely, rarely if ever acts out this
>>violence), or a group that has violence as its raison d'etre?  That, in
>>effect, is what street gangs are.
> 
> I don't know that "street gangs" have violence as their raison d'etre.  Some
> might, but I doubt that all do.

You're kidding, right?  Surely you're not that deluded.  Why else would a
large numbers of youths gather together every night?  I get it now: wearing
their colours, beating the crap out of anybody in another gang, selling drugs,
vandalizing cars, stealing cars, committing drive-by shootings, raping
women, terrorizing residents, holding up gas stations and convenience
stores, hell that must just be their way of expressing themselves, right? 
Nothing wrong with that, right? 
  
> But I fail to see how groups that promote violence, whether they act that
> violence out themselves or not, are any better.  People are not less
> sullied by the violence they actively promote, just because they themselves
> may be at arms length from the physical acts they incite.  This is called
> "assigning responsibility", Ms. Charbonneau.

How do I promote violence?  Have I ever advocated violence?  If you say I
have, you're gonna have to back up your accusation with a quote.


Eagerly awaiting your response,

Sylvie Charbonneau

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