The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/c/carpenter.chris/1996/carp.1096


From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct  5 11:39:43 PDT 1996
Article: 71925 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Continuing myths
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 12:23:39 GMT
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mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>   [There is no question in my mind that is a matter of time 
>until I find a primary, mystical source for six million dead that 
>even predates the post WW I speech by the governor of New York.  
>It simply shows up in too many impossible places not to have a 
>primary and unrelated source.]  

Interesting assertion, Matt.
What WW I speech?
You have every reason to be proud of you homepage(s).
Great job.

Chris_________________________________________ 



From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct  5 11:39:44 PDT 1996
Article: 71926 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B refute this deniers
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 12:23:48 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chris Carpenter wrote:
>> 
>>

>Chuck Ferree writes:

> Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>> 
>> >Chuck Ferree submits proof, about Hoss and the gas which killed
>> >millions.
>> 
>> >It's true, it's historical facts. Get used to it!
>> 
>> >Zyklon B
>> 
>> >Hoss speaks:  .The special detachment now set about
>> >removing the gold teeth and cutting the hair from the women.
>> >Friedrich, p. 32.
>> 
>> I understand that hair was removed before gassing.

>You understand? How do you understand? Did you see this? Where did you 
>get this data? 
Books: The World Must Know by Berenbaum, The Destruction of the 
European Jews by Hilberg plus others.  I'll look up the exact quotes
if you are interested.

>Hoess was there, pal. If he says the hair was removed after death, 
>that's what happened. 
I can't give too much weight to the perp's.  

>I have read accounts both ways, so it doesn't matter to me. The point 
>is, the Nazis did gas millions and did cut the hair from the women and 
>take all the gold from all the corpses. BTW have you ever been to 
>Auschwitz?
No, but I have business in Ireland in 97 and I'm planning to take two
weeks to visit Poland.  The ideal trip would include a P.E.,
geologist, historian, chemist and a testing/sampling technician. 
With prior approval of the Polish government, this could be a great
fact finding mission.

>I have, twice...July 1945, also September 1994. 
>> 
>> Chuck, you have alot of books, can you tell me if the Zyklon B
>> retained the blue color after use?  Thanks.

>I do have a lot of books, I'm also classified as a Witness-Liberator, 
>having been in five main death camps and several sub-camps.
I know, I read your writings.

>I don't know what color Zyklon B "Gas" was, the crystals have been 
>describe as "mauve, blue, pinkish-mauve and other colors. I saw many 
>containers of Zykilon B, but never saw the gas produced when the 
>chemical came in contact with air.

>How about you? Have you seen the "gas" in vapor form? Have you seen 
>the containers?
>Chuck
I have seen photos of the containers.

Chris_______________________________________________________





From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct  5 11:39:44 PDT 1996
Article: 71927 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Big Gas Chamber
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:32:07 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <52touq$rns@lex.zippo.com>, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
>wrote:

>> The book I'm currently reading describes a gas chamber that can
>> kill 3,000 people within five minutes.  
>> The following quotes come from pages 156-156 of: Approaches to 
>> Auschwitz, by Rubenstein & Roth.
>> 
>>         . . . . The prisoners were then taken to a huge underground
>>         room two hundred yards long. . . . . In this room at thirty-yard
>>         intervals were columns of sheet iron pipes with many perforations.
>>         Within five minutes, three thousand people were dead.  Twenty
>>         minutes later the ventilators had evacuated the gas. . . . . Before
>>         cremation, hair was removed as was gold from the victims' teeth.
>>         The yield in gold was between eighteen and twenty pounds a day. [1]
>> 
>> MVA Clairification:
>> 
>> This book contains information which is untrue.  
>>         i.     gassing chambers were not that big.
>>         ii.     hair was removed before gassing.
>> 
>> Therefore: this book should not to be considered a suitable reference
>> source for those people studying the Holocaust. 
>>                 
>>         [1]     Rubenstein, Richard L. and  Roth, John K., Approaches
>>                 to Auschwitz - The Holocaust and its Legacy. Atlanta:
>>                 John Knox Press, 1987.


>Tsk tsk, Mr. Carpenter. You by chance didn't forget to mention that maybe
>the authors were using Dr. Myklos Niszli, a prisoner doctor, and Mengele's
>assistant, at Auschwitz as their primary source, did you? 
Actually, I was not aware that Dr. Nyiszli was a bad guy that lied.
Guess you told me, huh?  I can't give too much credence to foxes in
the henhouse either.
	
>Sure sounds like Nysizli, doesn it, Mr. Carpenter? Of course, Nyiszli, who
>was an eyewitness, got a few things wrong. Like the dimensions of the
>L.Kellers and the spacing between the Zyklon B introduction columns, ect.
>Probably the number of victims per gassing too. (Though a few gassings
>involving 2,500-3,000 _did_ likely happen.) 
OK. I'll take Nyiszli with a grain of salt.

>But all in all, Mr. Carpenter, Nyiszli wasn't wrong on the important
>parts. Most importantly, though, Mr. Carpenter, it is knowing the proper
>contexts such eyewitness testimony should be taken in. It also helps to
>cross-reference the details. Like, for instance, referencing Pressac's
>_Technique_, which contains photos of the Bauleitung construction drawings
>for Krema II and its L.Kellers, to ascertain the correct dimensions of the
>L.Kellers. It helps put things in their proper perspective. 
In one paragraph you say he lies and in the next paragraph you say he
wasn't wrong on the important items.  Last week you told me that I was
being selective, now you do it.  
As for Pressac, I'll get to it, thanks.

>Research is all, Mr. Carpenter. You should try it some time.
OK.

>BTW, Mr. Carpenter, the hair of the victims was cut both before and after
>gassings depending on period. During Aktions Ho"ss, for instance, when
>nearly 400,000 Hungarian Jews were murdered in less than three months, the
>(female) victims' hair wash shorn _after_ they were gassed to death.
>Earlier, in 1943, victims had their heads shaved _before_ they were
>murdered. 
Good paragraph. Can you point me to the sources of this?

I have gone back and reread the section in question, in
Approaches To Auschwitz.  It is not indicated that Nyiszli
is a sometime liar or sometime truthteller.  
If Nyiszli tells tall tales, why did the authors use him as a source?
Did Rubenstein and Roth believe his big gas chamber story?


I should have known better myself since on page 156 it says that
Sonderkommandos dragged the victims to the SS marksmen, where they
were shot in the head.  "Dead or still alive, the victims were then
thrown on the burning pyre.  The majority of the victims were in fact
burned alive.  More than six thousand victims a day were put to death
in this fashion " (Nyiszli, Auschwitz, pp 68-71).

Chris___________________________________________________  




From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct  5 11:39:45 PDT 1996
Article: 71928 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Big Gas Chamber
Date: Sat, 05 Oct 1996 16:32:52 GMT
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Reading one book proves nothing. Read fifty books and you will find 
>many contradictions. It's a given that eyewitness perceptions differ 
>in context, rarely in substance. If it makes you feel better to 
>dis-believe the historical facts proven over and over again, by the 
>one book you mentioned, then you can't be a serious researcher, or 
>interested in finding the truth.
>Chuck


>Chris Carpenter wrote:
>> 
>> The book I'm currently reading describes a gas chamber that can
>> kill 3,000 people within five minutes.
>> The following quotes come from pages 156-156 of: Approaches to
>> Auschwitz, by Rubenstein & Roth.

>I can find other quotes which say the same thing and some that will 
>differ. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. It happened, when it happened, 
>in the manner in which it happened.
>Get used to it.

This is like a giant jigsaw puzzle.  The box has been dumped and now
I'm turning over the pieces.  Each piece represents a fact.  When I
run across a piece that has been chewed up by the dog I set it aside,
since it no longer can help the big picture.

Raul Hilberg said it best when describing one of his research tactics:
	In all of my work I have never begun by asking the big questions, 
	because I was always afraid that I would come up with small
	answers, and I have preferred to address these things which are
	minutiae or details in order that I might then be able to put 
	together in a gestalt a picture which, if not an explanation,
	is at least a description, a more full description, of what
	transpired. [SHOAH by Lanzmann]

Chris______________________________________________________




From ccarp@concept.net Thu Oct 10 01:07:59 PDT 1996
Article: 72962 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: For the enrichment of NIZKOR's archives!
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:32:43 GMT
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jtoth@infobahnos.com (Judith Toth) wrote:



>	As distinct from the attitude of Weizmann, stood the alarm of Max
>Nordau and Vladimir Jabotinsky.
>	In the Zionist Congress of 1911, 22 years before Hitler came to power,
>and three years before World War I, Nordau said, "How dare the smooth
>talkers, the clever official blabbers, open their mouths and boast of
>progress!? Here they hold jubilant peace conferences in which they
>talk against war. But the same righteous Governments, who are so
>nobly, industriously active to establish the eternal peace,  are
>preparing, by their own confession, complete annihilation for six
>million people, and there is nobody, except the doomed themselves, to
>raise his voice in protest although this is a worse crime than any
>war..."
>Judit Toth

So far, six million mentioned in 1911 then six million mentioned in
1919.  

Any mention of six million prior to 1911?

Chris___________________________________________







From ccarp@concept.net Thu Oct 10 09:29:28 PDT 1996
Article: 72997 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Raul Hilberg's estimates
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:08:52 GMT
Organization: Zippo
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zenoink@ix.netcom.com(Zenoink) wrote:


>Hilberg clearly marks all his figures according to how solid he
>believes the evidence shows them to be.  He also acknowledges that new
>evidence may lead to a lower or higher figure in any given instance,
>but his estimates are among the best we can hope to have at this point.
>Kay

 Hilberg, unlike other writers I've read, seems to shoot for accuracy.
  
Here is a paragraph from chapter 9, The Statistic, by Raul Hilberg:
	To this day, the majority of published estimates have
	hovered between five and six million.  Beyond that, their 
	methods of calculation remained much the same.  The
	numbers extrapolated from information, sometimes
	fragmentary, comming from the German military, their
	related agencies, and various Jewish sources; they 
	were also taken from the comparisons established between
	prewar and postwar statistics.  One must bear in mind, 
	however, that the raw data are self-explanatory, and that to 
	interpret them often requires the compilation of voluminous
	material which itself must be submitted to analysis.
	Assumptions may therefore be piled on assumptions, and the
	margins of error may be wider than they seem.  To state the matter 
	simply, exactness is impossible. [1]

Chris_____________________________________________________

	[1]	Furet, Francois, Unanswered Questions. New York:
		Schocken Books, 1989.	
 








From ccarp@concept.net Fri Oct 11 09:07:03 PDT 1996
Article: 73283 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Continuing myths
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:13:47 GMT
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mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:


>          _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582:

What is this? Book, magazine, paper. 
Would like to have photocopy of entire article or speech.

Why is six million  significant in 1919?


>                    THE CRUCIFIXION OF JEWS MUST STOP!
>                           By MARTIN H. GLYNN
>                  (Former Governor of the State of N.Y.)


>     "From across the sea SIX MILLION men and women call to us for help,
>and eight hundred thousand little children cry for bread.

>     [...]  "These children, these men and women are our FELLOW-MEMBERS OF
>THE HUMAN FAMILY, with the same claim on life as we, the same
>susceptibility to the winter's cold, the same PROPENSITY TO DEATH before
>the fangs of hunger.  Within them reside the illimitable possibilities for
>the advancement of the human race as naturally would reside in SIX MILLION
>human beings.  WE MAY NOT BE THEIR KEEPERS BUT WE OUGHT TO BE THEIR
>HELPERS."

>     [...]  "IN THE FACE OF DEATH, IN THE THROES OF STARVATION there is no
>place for mental distinctions of creed, no place for physical differences
>of race.  In this catastrophy, when SIX MILLION HUMAN BEINGS are being
>WHIRLED TOWARD THE GRAVE by a CRUEL AND RELENTLESS FATE, only the most
>idealistic promptings of human nature should sway the heart and move the
>hand.

>     "SIX MILLION MEN AND WOMEN ARE DYING from lack of the necessaries of
>life; eight hundred thousand children cry for bread.  And THIS FATE is upon
>them through NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN, through no transgression of the laws of
>God or man; but through the awful tyranny of war and a BIGOTED LUST FOR
>JEWISH BLOOD.

>     "In this THREATENED HOLOCAUST OF HUMAN LIFE, forgotten are the
>niceties of philosophical distinction, forgotten are the differences of
>historical interpretation; and the determination to help the helpless, to
>shelter the homeless, to clothe the naked and to feed the hungry becomes a
>religion at whose altar men of every race can worship and women of every
>creed can kneel..."



>=====
>Read the information holohuggers fear
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
>http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
>http://www.alquds.org.80/www/zionism/zionism.html





From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct 12 10:53:39 PDT 1996
Article: 73481 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Continuing myths
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:34:36 GMT
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mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>On Wed, 09 Oct 1996 22:13:47 GMT, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
>wrote:

>>mgiwer@worldnet.att.net (Matt  Giwer) wrote:


>>>          _The American Hebrew_, October 31, 1919, page 582:

>>What is this? Book, magazine, paper. 
>>Would like to have photocopy of entire article or speech.

>	As I am regularly advised, go to a library. 
Okay, you are right. 

>>Why is six million  significant in 1919?

>	Prescience; phychic powers, whatever you would like. 
The truth will do.
Chris__________________________________ 

>=====
>Read the information holohuggers fear
>http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Institute for Historic Revisionism
>http://www.codoh.com/ Committee for Open Debate On the Holocaust
>http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english/ Ernst Zundel, Threat to Canadian Security
>http://www.alquds.org:80/www/zionism/zionism.html the dark side





From ccarp@concept.net Sun Oct 13 08:50:50 PDT 1996
Article: 73824 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B refute this deniers
Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 21:35:29 GMT
Organization: Zippo
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <53h9de$gh7@lex.zippo.com>, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
>wrote:

>[snip]

>> Ho:ss ran a killing machine and you believe him? 

>For the most part, yes. Ho"ss was quite frank in describing the killing
>process at Auschwitz. 

>> I don't believe anything the enemy says.  

>Thank goodness you weren't in charge of MAGIC then! We'd have lost the
>Battle of the Atlantic and Midway both!

>> The Germans were our enemy. I would listen to what they had to say, 
>> but at a greatly discounted rate.

>Mr. Carpenter,
>Would you listen to Jewish survivors? 
>Would you listen to non-Jewish witnesses? 
>Would you listen to the Soviets, who were (nominal) allies? 
>Would you listen to the Poles, who were allies? 
>Would you listen to the French, who were allies? 
>Would you listen to the British, who were close allies? 
>Would you listen to United States Army? 

We were talking about Ho:ss.

>> >> >> Chuck, you have alot of books, can you tell me if the Zyklon B
>> >> >> retained the blue color after use?  Thanks.
>> 
>> >I think you are setting a trap here! I don't think anybody can say 
>> >that the "gas" had any color. It was colorless, and odorless. If you 
>> >have information to the contrary please share it with us.
>> 
>> The color of the gas was not the question.  The question was:
>> Did the pellets retain the blue color after all the gas was used up?
>> No traps from me, Chuck,  just simple questions.

>Mr. Carpenter, why don't you take a look for yourself and get back to us:

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images/zyklon-color.jpg
I went, I saw, thank you.  This photo looks like the one in The World
Must Know.
Chris________________________________________

>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct 19 10:43:30 PDT 1996
Article: 75670 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Anti-Zionism = anti-Semitism"
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:03:10 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	This would mean that objecting to the Zionist policy of shooting
>down little kids with bullets for their throwing stones, uprooting
>their daddies orchards, barring their daddies access to work, closing
>their schools for years, holding them prisoners without due process,
>torture, defying U.N. resolutions, breaking "peace" agreements,
>rousting whole populations with bombs, blowing up refugee camps and
>the myriad of other unaesthetic Zionist policies - ah yes, complaining
>about this is an act of anti-Semitism.   

Tom,
I must remind you that they were teen agers and the bullets were
rubber.
Chris_____________________________________________________




From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct 19 10:43:31 PDT 1996
Article: 75671 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Russia to turn over Nazi files
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 12:59:49 GMT
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		Sun-Sentinel 
	Saturday - October 19, 1996

   Moscow - Russia's Federal Security Service
will turn over more than 14,000 pages of Nazi war crime
documents to the Unites States, the Interfax news agency
reported on Friday.
President Boris Yeltsin has authorized the agency to send
the documents to the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C.,
Nikolai Kovalyov, director of the security service, told Interfax.
________________________________________________________



From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct 19 16:35:49 PDT 1996
Article: 75740 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B refute this deniers
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 13:02:28 GMT
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <545uta$gni@lex.zippo.com>, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
>wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <53mfk3$1j3@lex.zippo.com>, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
>> >wrote:
>> 
>> >> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>> 
>> >[snip]
>> 
>> >> >Mr. Carpenter,
>> >> >Would you listen to Jewish survivors? 
>> >> >Would you listen to non-Jewish witnesses? 
>> >> >Would you listen to the Soviets, who were (nominal) allies? 
>> >> >Would you listen to the Poles, who were allies? 
>> >> >Would you listen to the French, who were allies? 
>> >> >Would you listen to the British, who were close allies? 
>> >> >Would you listen to United States Army? 
>> >> 
>> >> We were talking about Ho:ss.
>> 
>> >Indeed, Mr. Carpenter. And did you not, in regards to Ho"ss, say, "I don't
>> >believe anything the enemy says?" Well? Of course you did. Ergo, my
>> >question, _also_ in regards to Ho"ss, asking just who you _would_ listen
>> >to. 
>> 
>> >Your evasion of the question is quite telling, Mr. Carpenter. 
>> I'm not evading your question, I'm ignoring it.  Your questions
>> deal with allies, while my statement deals with Ho:ss, the enemy.
>> Remember Chuck said that if Ho:ss said it, then I could believe it.
>> Then I said to Chuck: I don't believe anything the enemy says.
>> 
>> Here is why I can't believe the enemy:
>> Military training includes areas of evasion and escape.
>> If you can't escape then you must confound and confuse your
>> enemy.  Name, rank, and serial number only. 

>The war was over, Mr. Carpenter. Germany had surrendered long before Ho"ss
>was captured and brought to trial. Long before Ho"ss wrote his memoirs. Do
>try and keep up, Mr. Carpenter.

Ok guys, wars over - we can all be pals now.
Let's go get a beer and tell war stories.

>> Of course, real world conditions apply,  the use of torture methods can get 
>> anybody to say anything you want them to say.

>Mr. Carpenter, the evidence to support  your insinuation that Ho"ss was
>tortured into writing his memors is? 
Did I say "memors"?    _No_.
Did I insinuate?            _No_.
Did I make a statement? Yes.
Do you really want me to give you evidence that people get maliable
when tortured?

>> Look, if you guys want to believe Ho:ss thats okay by me. 
>> You can believe all of his story or part of his story.

>How gracious of you Mr. Carpenter. :-/

>> I choose not to use his testimony because of the built-in high
>> probability of inaccuracy.  

>Mr. Carpenter, the evidence to support your insinuation that Ho"ss's
>testimony (and  memoirs) were innacurate is? 
You're silly.

>> Ho:ss' testimony was tainted and so was all the other Nazis' testimonies.

>Mr. Carpenter, the evidence to support your insinuation that Ho"ss's
>testimony (and  memoirs), as well as "all the other Nazis' testimonies"
>were innacurate is? 
You're still silly.

>Be sure to cite the historical and primary sources to support your
>allegations, Mr. Carpenter. And please, Mr. Carpenter, try and restrain
>yourself to using acknowledged scholars in the field. 
That's what I'm looking for - acknowledged scholars.
If you wer'nt so ascerbic, you might even be able to help me.
You could say something like:
	Mr. Carpenter, I know that you give citations for what you post.
	Here's a list of 15 books that I feel best describe what happened 
	during that period. Hope this helps.
 
Then I could think: Hey, maybe this Van Alstine guy _is_ okay
afterall.	

>> >> >Mr. Carpenter, why don't you take a look for yourself and get back to us:
>> >> > >>>>
>>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images/zyklon-color.jpg
>> 
>> >> I went, I saw, thank you.  This photo looks like the one in The World
>> >> Must Know.
>> 
>> >Indeed it is, Mr. Carpenter. Any comments on its color? 
>> 
>> In the book its blue.
>>
>> In the Nizkor photo, the color is more grey than blue.
>> I would still  like to see other photos of Zyklon B tho, just to set
>> aside any doubts.  

>And I would like to see you try and substantiate your (above)
>insinuations, Mr. carpenter, with hard fact and not specious innuendo.
>Just to set aside any doubts, you understand, Mr. carpenter.... Perhaps
>you will set a precedent that other deniers will follow! 
Bristly today, are we?  
You sure do assume alot, Mr. Van Alstine.
>Imagine that. 

>Mark
Chris________________________________________





From ccarp@concept.net Sat Oct 19 16:35:50 PDT 1996
Article: 75742 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.win.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!news
From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B refute this deniers
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:24:27 GMT
Organization: Zippo
Lines: 69
Message-ID: <545uta$gni@lex.zippo.com>
References: <32504704.4A33@rio.com> <52totc$rns@lex.zippo.com> <3253DC8A.67AE@rio.com> <535ksp$nnn@lex.zippo.com> <325687EF.2534@rio.com> <53h9de$gh7@lex.zippo.com>  <53mfk3$1j3@lex.zippo.com> 
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mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <53mfk3$1j3@lex.zippo.com>, ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
>wrote:

>> mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>[snip]

>> >Mr. Carpenter,
>> >Would you listen to Jewish survivors? 
>> >Would you listen to non-Jewish witnesses? 
>> >Would you listen to the Soviets, who were (nominal) allies? 
>> >Would you listen to the Poles, who were allies? 
>> >Would you listen to the French, who were allies? 
>> >Would you listen to the British, who were close allies? 
>> >Would you listen to United States Army? 
>> 
>> We were talking about Ho:ss.

>Indeed, Mr. Carpenter. And did you not, in regards to Ho"ss, say, "I don't
>believe anything the enemy says?" Well? Of course you did. Ergo, my
>question, _also_ in regards to Ho"ss, asking just who you _would_ listen
>to. 

>Your evasion of the question is quite telling, Mr. Carpenter. 
I'm not evading your question, I'm ignoring it.  Your questions
deal with allies, while my statement deals with Ho:ss, the enemy.
Remember Chuck said that if Ho:ss said it, then I could believe it.
Then I said to Chuck: I don't believe anything the enemy says.

Here is why I can't believe the enemy:
Military training includes areas of evasion and escape.
If you can't escape then you must confound and confuse your
enemy.  Name, rank, and serial number only.  Of course, real world
conditions apply,  the use of torture methods can get anybody to say
anything you want them to say.

Look, if you guys want to believe Ho:ss thats okay by me. 
You can believe all of his story or part of his story.
I choose not to use his testimony because of the built-in high
probability of inaccuracy.  Ho:ss' testimony was tainted and so was
all the other Nazis' testimonies.

>> >Mr. Carpenter, why don't you take a look for yourself and get back to us:
>> 
>>
>>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images/zyklon-color.jpg

>> I went, I saw, thank you.  This photo looks like the one in The World
>> Must Know.

>Indeed it is, Mr. Carpenter. Any comments on its color? 
  In the book its blue.
In the Nizkor photo, the color is more grey than blue.
I would still  like to see other photos of Zyklon B tho, just to set
aside any doubts.  

>Mark

>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
>not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
>right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

>-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris__________________________________________



From ccarp@concept.net Thu Oct 24 08:19:30 PDT 1996
Article: 76663 of alt.revisionism
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From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B refute this deniers
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 18:24:10 GMT
Organization: Zippo
Lines: 135
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Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes:

>Looks like maybe I had Chris wrong. If it turns out to be that way, 
>I'm sorry and hereby apologize to Chris. 

>Chris Carpenter wrote:
>> 
>> Chuck Ferree  wrote:
>> 
>> >Chuck Ferree writes:
>> 
>> >Chris is beginning to write as if he's coming down on the denier's
>> >side. Tricky questions, contradicting one writer against another.
>> >Maybe he just wants more proof, which is available. Maybe he just
>> >isn't sure yet.That's OK, ask questions framed in a way they can be
>> >answered by the the truth. Not by speculation or guesses.
>> 
>> Tricky? No.

>Well, that depends on how many times the deniers have tried to trick 
>you, and why the deniers keep trying to be sneaky. Sometimes it's 
>difficult to determine whether they are trying trickery, or just being 
>stupid. It does get that close.

>>  Basic, simple, straight forward? Yes.
>O.K. we'll see. 

>Contradicting facts from different authors does not engender trust or
>> faith.

>No, but it does demonstrate that different conclusions can be reached 
>by different people reading the same material. One's perceptions do 
>come into play. That's human nature.
So true, but as you say: "proven facts count.... opinions do not
count." 

>> >Proven facts count...opinions do not count.
>> >Chuck

>> You bet.

>O.K. when I write something, I must be able to prove every word. The 
>same goes for all the others.  From considerable experience with 
>deniers, they feel that they can just make a statement, and do not 
>have to offer any proof. Moran, Giwer, Baron and several others just 
>shoot from the hip and when you nail them, they just go on to 
>something else. So we can conclude that these people are simply lying, 
>bluffing or don't care about facts or proof. Personally, I have easily 
>nailed the names mentioned, plus others. They are push-overs, but that 
>doesn't prevent them from posting more garbage.
Everybody should  document what they say unless it is a personal
experience of somekind.

>> >> >Hoess was there, pal. If he says the hair was removed after death, that's what happened.
>> >>
>> > I can't give too much weight to the perp's.

>Well, I believe you are wrong to approach the problem this way.
>> 
>> >By "perp's" do you mean Hoess? If so please tell me why you would
>> >discount an eyewitness, who wrote the truth, without being tortured.
>> 
>> Ho:ss ran a killing machine and you believe him?

>Yes, I believe him. Maybe he spread it on a little, but he hasn't been 
>proven to have lied about his experiences as commandant of Auschwitz.
>If you believe he lied, pick something from his hand written book and 
>point it out to us.

There is a high probability that he spread it on _alot.  Just like he
was trained to do and just like you were trained to do also.
Do  you remember the classes on evasion and escape?  I do.
I also remember about confounding and confusing the enemy if you are
captured.  
You can believe him if you wish, but to me he is a weed in the garden.
I have pulled him, and tossed his Nazi butt into the compost heap.


Bottom line Chuck, any conclusion(s) I reach will not be attributed to
facts learned from Ho:ss and company. 

>> I don't believe anything the enemy says.

>Well, you are wrong here. If you don't believe anything the enemy has 
>said, written, or testified too, you don't have much to go on.
Unless I'm being naive, there are other sources of evidence.
Please understand that I consider captured documents to be
valid evidence. The paper trail is good information, its just their
testimony  that I don't trust.

>What about what the defendants said at the Nuremberg Trials? Some 
>admitted their crimes, but blamed others. They mostly turned against 
>each other and Hitler too. But most of them did say something, and 
>some coped out all together. That's evidence!
Yes, tainted evidence.  Don't want to use it.

>I hope you will think about this, because it's simply not the case 
>that everything the "enemey" said is lies. A great deal of it has been 
>accepted as historical facts.

>  The Germans were our enemy.

>You're kidding me!!!  ;-)  little humor here.

>> I would listen to what they had to say, but at a greatly discounted
>> rate.

>How do you decide what is to be discounted and by how much? You end up 
>with an opinion based on your personal conclusions. That by itself can 
>make you sound like you don't know what you're talking about.
I want good information. Enemy testimony can be flawed, so its
discounted and not used.
My conclusions will be based on good facts, not on opinions or
enemy testimony.
>> 
>> 
>> >> >> Chuck, you have alot of books, can you tell me if the Zyklon B
>> >> >> retained the blue color after use?  Thanks.
>> 
>> >I think you are setting a trap here! I don't think anybody can say
>> >that the "gas" had any color. It was colorless, and odorless. If you
>> >have information to the contrary please share it with us.
>> 
>> The color of the gas was not the question.  The question was:
>> Did the pellets retain the blue color after all the gas was used up?
>> No traps from me, Chuck,  just simple questions.

>O.K. I see your question, and my answer is I don't know what color the 
>Zyklon B crystals are after they mix with air. 

>Chuck
Chris_____________________________________________________________



From ccarp@concept.net Thu Oct 31 23:10:04 PST 1996
Article: 78019 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!zippo!news
From: ccarp@concept.net (Chris Carpenter)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Author Sentenced For Anti-Semitic Article
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 20:06:08 GMT
Organization: Zippo
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	         Lev Krichevsky
     	 Jewish Telegraphic Agency

A court in the former Soviet republic of Georgia has given
a one-year jail sentence to the author of an anti-Semitic
article that appeared in a Georgian newspaper in August.

Givi Alaznispireli, editor and publisher of Noah, an independent
newspaper published in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi, last week
was sentenced for inciting racial and ethnic hatred.

The article, titled "Watch Out, Jews Ahead," said Jews were
responsible for the high level of unemployment and other economic 
ills besetting the country after Georgia declared its independence in
1991 from Soviet rule.

The article referred to Jews as "vampires" who have been pumping
the natural and intellectual wealth out of Georgia.

At the time of its publication, the article elicited a swift
condemnation from Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze, who 
described it as full of "facism and bigotry."

The article also prompted Georgian officials and intellectuals to
speak out against the anti-Semetic publication.

Georgia, which is located in the Caucasus Mountains, is known as 
a country with relatively low level of anti-Semitism. . . .

. . . . the only Jewish  member of the 226 seat Georgian Parliment,
said the editors of another Georgian tabloid would be put on trial
by the end of the year.

The tabloid has recently published several articles describing what it
alleged was a series of Jewish ritual murders.




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