The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/b/bellinger.joseph/lies/whole-truth


Path: news2.digex.net!digex.net!not-for-mail
From: mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Photograph: Hirt's Letter Regarding the Gassings in Natzweiler
Date: 13 Dec 1996 13:00:37 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Lines: 323
Message-ID: <58s5k5$feo@access5.digex.net>
References: <3298ce75.2379241@news.sprynet.com> <57nc7a$3ed@juliana.sprynet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: access5.digex.net
Xref: news2.digex.net alt.revisionism:134414

In article <57nc7a$3ed@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:
>   100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) writes:
>>  rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>  
>>>     100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) writes:
>>>>    rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>    
>>>>1/ Kramer said that he got from Hirt cyanide salts to gas about one
>>>>hundred of earmarked Jews, that he did it and delivered the corpses to
>>>>the mortuary of Hirt.
>  
>>>So Kramer said he received cyanide salts from Hirt?  And where did Hirt
>>>receive them from?  Do you happen to have a document which shows
>>>Hirt ordering cyanide salts?  Now, would these be the one and the same
>>>Zyklon B we have all heard so much about?  If Kramer was in charge of
>>>the executions, why did he not apply for the salts himself?  
>  
>> Hirt was a physician and worked in the Civil Hospices, the biggest
>> hospital of Strasbourg, that has its pharmacy, its laboratory of
>> chemistry, aso. As it is a salt that was used, that wasn't Zyklon B.
>> Kramer told he had to add water to the salt in order to begin the
>> gassing and Hirt said that the salt was a cyanide. A physician can
>> easily make it, for example by mixing an anhydrous acid (tartaric,
>> oxalic, citric) with KCN or NaCN. If Hirt was unsure how to do it, the
>> laboratory of chemistry was there to help.
>> 
>> All these products are very common and easy to find in the pharmacy.
>> Kramer told he had about a liter of salts for the four gassings.
>
>
>Of course you can prove that Hirt actually received these salts and sent
>them on to a camp?  Of course you can't.  it is all speculation on your
>part. 

    As is Mr. Blackmore's speculation below that the gas chambers could
have been built for legal executions. 

    Here is the Blackmore method of defense at work.

    "Your honor, the defense produced documents from a gun shop which they
claim show that my client purchased the handgun which was used to kill the
victim.  However, they have not provided any proof that he bought any
bullets.  Furthermore they have not produced documents from a wholesaler
that the shop which sold him the gun bought that gun from the wholesaler. 
Furthermore they have not produced documents from the manufacturer to
confirm that they made a gun with that serial number and sold it to the
wholesaler.  Since they have not done all of this, there is not sufficient
evidence to convict my client."


>>>>2/ A lot of letters of Hirt to Kramer, another SS of the Ahnenerbe and
>>>>vice versa still exist, as the one above, planning the gassing.
>  
>>>All of this planning for this one little gassing??  All these
>>>documents?
>>>Then I ask where all the documents are relating to the mass gassing 
>>>of Jews at Auschwitz......

    Hold that thought - we'll get back to it later.



>>  I told already these gassings were supported by the Ahnenerbe. It was
>>  of special interest for these Nazis to have anatomical studies on
>>  "earmarked" Jews. I said too that the breakthrough of the 2DB was so
>>  quick that the Germans left without destroying documents. See per
>>  example the Nuremberg documents 016-NO, 085-NO, 086-NO, 087-NO,
>>  116-NO, ..
>
>This is not an answer to my question.  You are simply dancing.  Anatomical
>studies of "earmarked Jews".  Do you know how ridiculous this sounds?

    All of Nazi "racial science" sounds equally ridiculous.  Does Mr. 
Blackmore deny it was taken seriously at the time?  Or is he merely
ignorant? 

    An interesting defense tactic indeed.  "Your honor, all the evidence
against my client must be forged, because he'd have been pretty stupid to
commit a crime like that."  Criminals aren't usually known for their work
in rocket science.



[snip]

>>  >>  3/ Testimonies from Natzweiler exist about the gassings, as documents
>>  >>  about the gas chamber. The gas chamber remained.
>>  >
>>  >Yet this gas chamer has never been thoroughly examined, to the best
>>  >of my knowledge.  No, I take that back.  It was examined by none other
>>  >than Robert Faurisson and proclaimed a fraud.

    It was also examined by David Cole, who pronounced it genuine and
Robert Faurisson the fraud.  And Mr. Blackmore knows this. 

    Witnesses are sworn to tell the truth.  But they are also sworn to
tell the _whole_ truth.  Mr. Blackmore seems not to understand the
importance of this.  There is a phrase: "lying by omission."  Mr.
Blackmore has just given us an example of the technique.


>>  Faurisson would say that an elephant is a pet if this could suit him.
>>  The French Army (a commander and a group of officers) visited the camp
>>  in Dec 44 and found a gas chamber, with lighting, a gas tight door
>>  with a secured porthole, a device of introduction, an airing with a
>>  fan (file n3 in the trial of Natzweiler by the permanent military
>>  court of Strasbourg).
>

>And you can prove that this alleged gas chamber was constructed by the
>Nazis and not the French, who purportedly "discovered" it.

    There are documents concerning its construction.  What more does Mr. 
Blackmore want?  Confessions?  But he rejects those.  Films of its
construction by men in SS uniforms?  But those could have been staged by
actors. 

    So I wish he would please explain what he would accept as proof.  From
his tactics here I cannot think of anything that he would not find some
means to reject. 


>And the Nazis just left it there for them to refer to as evidence.

    Once again: "Your honor, the gun which the prosecution claims was
found in my client's car must have been planted, and the ballistic tests
linking the gun to the bullets which killed the victim must be a forgery,
because no criminal of even ordinary intelligence would fail to get rid of
the murder weapon."  Do anyone really think the jury will buy that one? 

    But now let's go back and compare this latest Blackmore defense logic
with his earlier statement

>>>Then I ask where all the documents are relating to the mass gassing 
>>>of Jews at Auschwitz......

    Blackmore logic: if there are no documents at Auschwitz, this proves
there was no gassing because there MUST have been many documents and
written orders to carry out such a plan.  However, if there are lots of
documents around, it STILL doesn't prove gassing.  Instead, it proves that
they must be forged because it would be stupid to leave so many documents
lying around with proof of such a crime!

    Heads-I-win-tails-you-lose reasoning at its finest.


>The Nazis really were stupid, weren't they?  Building a "gas chamber" at
>Dachau weeks before the end of the war. leaving a gas chamber intact at
>Natzweiler....all so the allies could have all the proof they needed that
>people were being "gassed".....I'm ready for my close up, Mr. 
>DeMille......Aside from all this, there are such things as legal gas
>chambers and legal executions.  We have gas chambers in the U.S. where
>people like the Rosenbergs were executed for treason.  The Nazis
>certainly could have constructed one or two legal gas chambers to execute
>criminals.

    Typical defense lawyer tactic.  "My client was nowhere near the scene
of the crime.  Furthermore, all the evidence was forged.  Not only that,
it was self-defense."

    Mr. Blackmore's evidence that these gas chambers were constructed for
those purposes?  None, of course.  Evidence that they were constructed for
other purposes?  Letter from Rascher to Himmler; letter from Hirt.  Does
Mr. Blackmore really think the jury will buy the evidence-free explanation
over the explanation that has evidence? 


[snip]

>An Institute for Anatomy, where corpses are dissected and preserved as a
>matter of routine.  You must never have been in an Institute either.  By
>the way, not all of the corpses in the tanks were headless. 

    It is not a matter of routine for an institute of anatomy to resort to
murder to procure its specimens.


>>  >>  6/ Testimonies from the mortuary exist about the delivery of these
>>  >>  corpses with the same dates than Natzweiler (they were informed about
>>  >>  the day and hour of each delivery and all the corpses were still
>>  >>  warm), what Hirt said about these, and his final order to cut and
>>  >>  incinerate the heads before he left.
>

>Well, if you want to believe all that, fine.  Fact is, there is
>undoubtedly a deeper explanation to all of this than you are capable of
>giving at the moment. 

    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!

    If this is a fact, surely Mr. Blackmore can provide evidence of it. 

    We're waiting.


[snip]

>>  >>  7/ The selection of the earmarked Jews in Auschwitz is mentioned in
>>  >>  the chronicle.
>>  >
>>  >Are you then saying that all of the victims were Jews?
>>  
>>  Yes.
>
>Really???!!?  Since when are Jews uncircumcised?  Since when are
>Jews asian?  I will inform you that I have seen photos of these corpses.

    But that is merely Mr. Blackmore's worthless eyewitness testimony. 
Where may those photos be found?


[snip]

>> Now,
>>  how could Henrypierre guess that the victims had to be tattooed as
>>  they were in quarantine at Birkenau ? Was there many camps with the
>>  habit of tattooing the inmates who weren't immediately killed ?
>
>Do you know the year when tattooing of prisoners ceased at Auschwitz?
>I have met a number of Jews who claim to have been in Auschwitz and they
>had NO tattoo.

    As far as I know, the practice never ceased.  There were Jews who were
selected for work but sent on to other camps rather than kept as
registered prisoners at Auschwitz.  Those Jews would have been in
Auschwitz but would not have had an Auschwitz tattoo.


>>  His first testimony was the Dec 16, 1944, before Birkenau was
>>  liberated by the Russians. Moreover, if he didn't even know that the
>>  victims came from Natzweiler, he didn't know that they came in fact
>>  from Birkenau.
>>  
>>  How then could he make up these numbers, how could he guess that they
>>  were previously in quarantine at Birkenau and the habit of Auschwitz ?
>
>That is a pertinent question.  How could he?

    This question assumes that the numbers WERE made up.  The simplest
explanation is that the witness was telling the truth, that the numbers
were genuine.  If constructing a false testimony which is consistent with
other facts would require knowledge the witness could not have possessed
at the time of the testimony, then one must either say the witness made a
fantastically lucky guess, or that the testimony is genuine.

    I'm sure Mr. Blackmore favors the "lucky guess" explanation.  Or maybe
the witness had psychic powers.  Or maybe he had a secret radio receiver
picking up the secret radio transmitter in Auschwitz.  Mr. Blackmore
starts with the unshakeable assumption that the Natzweiler charges are
false, no matter how much evidence is produced - remember, Mr. Blackmore
seems to have insinuated that the more evidence which is produced, the
more stupid the Nazis would have to have been to leave it around, so the
more it proves that all the evidence was forged.  So it appears he will
look for any explanation, no matter how fanciful, to explain how the
evidence could all have been forged. 


>>  Then, the victims came from Birkenau. The chronicle mentions the
>>  selection by Beger from the Ahnenerbe and the quarantine (entry: Jun
>>  15, 1943).
>>  
>>  They traveled to Rothau and were gassed by Kramer according to his own
>>  testimony,
>
>In his initial detailed statement Kramer denied the existence of gas
>chambers.  His interrogators were not pleased with that response.  So, he
>was induced to give a second statement, which I reject.  Witches were
>similarly induced to claim that they had kissed the devil's ass.  Do you
>believe them? 

    The devil is not in the habit of leaving around documents written in
fiery letters to confirm that fact.  The Nazis at Natzweiler did leave
around documents supporting the existence of a gas chamber.  Oh, that's
right, they're all forged because it would have been stupid to leave them
around.



>> at four dates suited with Hirt (testimonies: the driver of
>>  the van; a farmer - the gas chamber is very close to the farm - ;
>>  several inmates and among them a man who built the introduction
>>  device; the two preparators of the mortuary; a secretary of the
>>  Ahnenerbe who typed the list of the selection, aso).
>
>If these people were gassed, then I can only say that these were legal
>gassing of people who had committed some sort of crime.

    BECAUSE!  I!  SAY!  SO!

    "Your honor, since it would have been stupid for my client to leave
any evidence of his crime, all the evidence against him was forged.  The
defense must prove it wasn't.  Moreover, he probably killed the victim in
self-defense.  I will offer no evidence for this; the defense must prove
he didn't (but since all their evidence is forged and perjured, they
can't)."

    Now, just how often do you think a defense attorney would succeed with
that tactic?  Yet that is EXACTLY what Mr. Blackmore is doing. 


>>  >>  Now, I'm curious to see how you will manage to uphold that no gassing
>>  >>  occurred in Natzweiler ?
>>  
>>  >Now, I am curious as to how you will answer my questions.
>>  
>>  Now, I'm still curious to see how you will manage to uphold that no
>>  gassing occurred in Natzweiler.
>
>What you write runs contrary to logic and the evidence.

    Revisionist David Cole disagrees.  And Mr. Blackmore knows that.  He
just chose to omit that fact, citing Faurisson as authority even though
Cole has produced evidence of Faurisson's underhanded behavior in the
affair.


[remainder deleted]

    Posted/emailed.
-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.
------- end of forwarded message -------


Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.