The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/b/beaulieu.jean-francois/1996/beaulieu.0696


From jfbe@vir.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:48 PDT 1996
Article: 40604 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: A revisionist FAQ (2)
Date: 28 May 1996 01:38:26 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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Thanks to Alexander Baron, who revised the text (my English is not perfect)
and gave me several suggestions for this FAQ and the 2 pages that follow.



        1.0  U.S Gas chambers, how it works
        2.0  Auschwitz gas chambers
        3.0  The gassing procedure
        4.0  Ferro-cyanides traces
        5.0  The stupidity of the method
        6.0  Question related to the morgues
        7.0  Leuchter dishonest?


1.0   US gas chambers

    Zyklon B is not used in American gas chambers, mainly because it requires too much time to drive the gas from the inert carrier. The method is to generate
the gas on site by chemical reactions of sodium cyanide and 18 % of sulphuric
acid. At the time of use, the HCN is already vaporised and is released through
valves into the gas chambers. The door is gasketed with a single pressure seal.
Because the chamber contains such a lethal gas, it is operated at a negative
pressure to guarantee that any leak would be inward. The pressurised system
also insures a quick evacuation of the gas through the top of the chamber and
an exhaust stack is normally require to avoid serious health problems around.
Walls are of welded steel construction or of plastic PVC. After an execution,
it is preferable to wash the walls carefully to avoid residual emissions. During
the execution, a mechanical system is required to distribute the gas quickly in
the chamber (1).

   This technology has existed since the 1920s, but actually, it has been almost
abandoned since it's a too complex and costly method. It's also dangerous for
the executioners. The first considerations which led to this system was the
wrong belief that it could give a more 'humane' death, without pain, but later
it was establish that this was not true.

2.0 Auschwitz gas chambers

  It's sometimes difficult to describe the Auschwitz gas chambers: most of the
books on that topic talk about gas chambers without describing the mechanism
they were suppose to have used. There are very, very few photos of the alleged
gas chambers of Krema 2 and 3, even though the buildings are still there (but
not totally intact). Some eyewitness claimed that showers were used to introduce
Zyklon B (a gas lighter than the air) while others talked about SS men throwing
cans of Zyklon B into the chamber. Actually, there are roof vents on the top of
Krema 2 at Auschwitz, and the Auschwitz Museum claims they were there before
the Russians captured the camp. (The Communist authorities allowed any visitor
to come there after 1958). In this version, Zyklon B was poured from those roof
vents in a metallic wiremesh. However, Hoess, in his 'memoirs', describes it as
follows (2)



"The extermination process in Auschwitz took place as follows:
Jews selected for gassing were taken as quietly as possible to
the crematoria, the men being separated from the women. In the
undressing room, prisoners of the special detachment, detailed
for this purpose, would tell them in their own language that they
were going to be bathed and deloused, that they must leave their
clothes neatly together and above all remember where they had put
them, so that they would be able to find them again quickly after
delousing. The prisoners of the special detachment had the great-
est interest in seeing that the operation proceeded smoothly and
quickly. After undressing, the Jews went into the gas chambers,
which were furnished with showers and water pipes and gave a
realistic impression of a bath house....The door would now be
quickly screwed up and the gas immediately discharged by the
waiting disinfectors through vents in the ceilings of the gas
chambers, down a shaft that led to the floor. This ensured the
rapid distribution of the gas...It can be said that about one-
third died straight away...The door was opened half an hour after
the induction of the gas, and the ventilation switched on." from
pages 223-4 (Appendix 1).

There was no fan for either Krema 4 or Krema 5 in the story. This one is sup-
posed to have exisex for Kremas 2 and 3 only, despite a project for the
installation of an evantual ventilation system for krema 5 tardivelly is
discussed in another book but there's no doubt that Hoess talk here
about those 2 main kremas. According to Rudolph Hoess in his memoirs we can
thus conclude that the Germans were opening the door and
then used the fan to spread...the gas in all the crematoria building!


  In A.T.O, page 258, a drawing of the eyewitness David Olere shows pellets
wich were spread on the floor and Pressac comments that: It can be entirely
fictive or based on what the artist saw, anyway this picture is the only one
wich show a homicidal gassing.

   The walls are of mortar and bricks, there are no gaskets to isolate the
alleged homicidal room, no distribution system, no pressurised system neither,
no mechanical constructions (pipes or other) which are used in a normal gas
chamber.


3.0 The gassing procedure:

   The first mass gassing of Jews is supposed to have occur out of
Bikernau, in 2 little farmhouses converted for the sake of mass killing. It
was a total absurdity to reship the Jews from Bikernau there rather than to
shot them on the spot. The reason why the legend was built around those 2
farmhouses is simply that it was judged as preferable to use Kramer's diary
as a starting base to draw the main elements of the story. In the first part
of the legend, pellets were allegedly throw in the house through a hole in
the wall (3). Since Zyklon B (according to the manufacturer) sticks adheres
strongly to surfaces and that the special disinfection team needed to wait
20 hours after use before entering a normal room without a gas mask (4),
then the removal of bodies immediately afterwards would be extremely difficult
if we rely on the Hoess memoirs. In this biography, the ex-commandant of
Auschwitz stated explicitely that the Sonderkommando were eating and smoking
while they were working (ie without gas masks). However, if we consider someone
who would be equipped with a heavy gas mask, the removal wouldn't be easy
neither. In the case of the so-called gas chambers, HCN could adhere to the
walls, the ceilling, the corpses but much more to the hairs of hundreds of
victims before being released gradually. In the case of the 2 farmhouse of
1942 also, the remaining pellets on the ground would be a danger for the Son
derkommandos if they had to accomplish their task without any delay.

   There is an interesting remark here: Degesh facilities, those small rooms
which were used by the Germans for disinfecting clothes, were equipped with
exhaust stacks and systems to heat the gas in pipes before re-injecting it
into the room: they wanted to avoid condensation on walls. But nothing like
that exists in the 'homicidal gas chambers', less developed technologically.

 4.0 Ferro-cyanide traces:

   The Revisionist claim is that since delousing chambers (Degesh facilities)
contain up to 1,000 times more ferro-cyanide traces on the walls than 'homicide
gas chambers' in the Leuchter original samples than there was no mass gassing of
Jews and the mortuaries where few cyanide compounds were found had just been
disinfected once during the war. It might be said here that the original claim
of the anti-Revisionist (Raul Hilberg) was that most of the Zyklon B was used
for killing people according to 'reliable sources', but since Leuchter's fin-
dings in 1988 the Holocaust lobby decided to adopt a new version (Pressac)
where more than 95% of the Zyklon B was use for disinfections.

   Although Revisionists are more interested in the ferro-cyanide traces
(Prussian blue) which forms a stable element, the Cracow team and their
sleeping partner (the Auschwitz Museum) decided to play on the confusion
that may exist with potassium cyanide which is, indeed, soluble in water
and the ferro-cyanide. The claim that acid rain could have washed cyanide
away compounds is true for potassium cyanide, but not for ferro-cyanide
compounds. An excellent rebuttal of the Nizkor argument can be found on:

http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg/ under the section Journal of Historical
Review , Winter 1992-93, Volume Twelve, Number 4, especially the article
by Paul Grubach: The Leuchter Report Vindicated.

    The Revisionist interpretation of the minor traces of ferro-cyanide pig-
mentation on the 'gas chamber' walls is that the entire building was probably
evacuated once or twice during the war to be disinfected. Such traces were
found on other rooms which were not supposed to be either gas chambers or
Degesh facilities (for example, the washroom of Krema 1) and the level were
comparable. The conclusion is thus that those buildings were just disinfected.
Since lice was the reason for the typhus epidemics, one can expect the lice
to quit the hairs of the bodies and invade the buildings where several persons
were working, so there's nothing abnormal with the hypothesis that the Germans
disinfected the mortuaries with Zyklon B.

   If someone claims that Leuchter falsified the samples of the washroom, then
it might be asked why he planted a sample with few cyanide compounds for the
gas chamber rather than a sample with no cyanide compound. One of Leuchter's
suggestion after his findings was to allow a neutral international commission
that could solve the problem forever with a transparent and open inquiry,
but as usual the Holocaust lobby did not follow the suggestion and preferred,
after 7 years only, to use his own usual commission rather than a mixed team
with pure random samples.

    Another argument is that the disinfection was taking 10 to 20 hours while
the gassing of people was taking just 10 to 30 minutes. In that case, it is
claimed that it's not surprising to find far less ferro-cyanide compounds on
the walls of the 'gas chambers'. This argument is not responding to the fact
that the level of cyanide between the 'gas chamber' of Krema 1 and the washroom
of the same building are comparable. Moreover, things do not work that way in
real life: the physical absorption of a gas by a surface is a very quick process.
Some experiments were conducted on the adsorption of gases by solids: what they
show, mainly, is that most of the gases are absorbed within a few minutes at 0
degrees Celsius on charcoal. (5) There is a saturation level for the solids,
over which you can't expect to see more gas to be absorbed by it (adsorption
is the word used rather than absorption for such a process). Experiments were
conducted on oxygen, nitric oxide, CO, nitrogen, etc...: the conclusion was
that an average of 80% was adsorbed within 15 minutes while 20% was adsorbed
in the reminding 72 hours of the experience (5).

   In that case, chemical adsorption is coming right after the physical adsor-
ption, but due to the time that is necessary for the gas to be released by a
surface, it is wrong to say that a gassing over '10 hours' will create 20
times more compounds than a gassing over 30 minutes. Some HCN molecules will
react with iron if the microscopic conditions are favourable at a moment,
the others will be released.


 5.0 The stupidity of the method


   The best way to kill people is not to transport them over 1,000 kilometres
with all the cost involves and to put them in those 'gas chambers' but to shoot
them on site. The reason for which the gas chamber story was used in connection
with Zyklon B can be found in one of Hilberg's books: he shows proof over many
pages (mainly Zyklon B invoices) that Zyklon B was produced in Germany, and
carried to Auschwitz. No one contests that Zyklon B was used at Auschwitz to
eliminate lice which were bringing typhus into the camp, even on the anti-Revi-
sionist side: there's too much proof of that. It was essential at Nuremberg to
maximise the proofs and minimise the risk with the use of such documents for
which a dual interpretation is necessary: Zyklon B was use to disinfect clothes
and fight typhus epidemics which were killing Jewish manpower, but Zyklon B was
also used to liquidate them.


6.0 Questions related to the morgues.


   A couple of years ago, Jean-Claude Pressac brought forth a new version of
the story in which the absence of details and schemas about gas chambers in
the documentation seased in the hands of the Germans was not due to an official
Nazi policy to 'keep the secret' but to the fact that the mortuaries were transf-
ormed by technicians in gas chambers late. The question is quite simple: if 200
to 300 people died from ordinary death (epidemies) in Auschwitz each day, where
did the Germans put the bodies of those peoples before to cremate them?

   The morgues of Krema 2 and 3 were there to receive bodies before their cre-
mation, 30 ovens for those 2 buildings were insufficient to reduce to ashes all
the corpses immediately. But the Jews who were dying from epidemics didn't stop
dying after the transformation of the mortuaries into gas chambers, so where
did they put them? Was the truck bringing one body at a time from the hospital
afterwards? Or were they piled up outside while dozens to hundreds of civilians
were working at the camp, without counting the SS families who were visiting
the camp? 'Scuze us, that's because of our secret gas chambers that we are
coding in our documents'.

   Does it mean that the Jews who had to walk to those crematories were allowed
to see hundreds of corpses near the crematoria even though the German intention
was to 'fool' them? If this is the case, one could expect that the same Sonder-
kommandos who allegedly brought the corpses from the 'gas chambers' to the
ovens were also in charge of the disposal of those other bodies. Unfortunately,
their tales do not mention this interesting problem.


7.0 Leuchter, dishonest?

   The main argument which was developed against Leuchter is that he's not an
engineer. In this case, experience is more important than an academic training.
He has worked several years for the American Navy and the American Air Force,
creating equipment for civil and military applications. He has patents in do-
mains like optics, meteorology, navigation, etc. He has already been described
by a penitentiary director as a highly competent consultant(6). He knows what
he's talking about, even though he can, like anyone, make mistakes. In Massa-
chusetts, only a fraction of the engineers have licences (I think it's 5,000
out of 50,000) and there is no legislation about the specific topic of 'gas
chambers'. In such a case, Leuchter was the only one of the 50,000 engineers
who was prosecuted, after his report: this is not because he used false repre-
sentation, this is simply because he was victimised.

(1) The first Leuchter report
(2) COMMANDANT OF AUSCHWITZ: The authentic confessions of a mass
murderer, by Rudolf Hoess, Introduction by Lord Russell of Liver-
pool, Pan paperback edition, (1961).
(3) Kremmer's diary
(4) NI-9912
(5) Absorption Of Gases By Solids, by McBain, published by George Routledge
   & Sons, London, (1932), page 124.
(6) See the same issue of the Journal of Historical Review issue at
   the IHR




From jfbe@vir.com Sun Jun  2 10:20:48 PDT 1996
Article: 40664 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Prima Facie Extermination
Date: 30 May 1996 02:04:23 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
>
> 

> BUT THERE IS PROOF OF AN EXTERMINATION POLICY, PEOPLE, RIGHT UNDER YOUR
> NOSE
> 
> 1)  The Wannsee Protocols state clearly that all of the Jews of Europe
> must be gathered, and split into single sex work gangs, whereby a number
> may be expected to perish from natural causes, and then we have to think
> really hard about letting the survivors go, because they will represent
> the hardiest element [this is a paraphrase,  but an accurate paraphrase]. 
> Now, this may not be a plan for extermination outright, but I don't see
> how anyone can say that it is not a plan for ultimate extermination for,
> if not all, then certainly, most of the Jews who fall under Nazi control. 
> As far as "proof of extermination" goes, this is good enough for me. 
> Comments?
> 
> Monsieur Beaulieu dismisses the document.  Sorry, not this one.  I will
> grant that there is a high probability that some black propaganda slipped
> into the records, but if someone wanted to hoax the Wannsee Conference
> they would not have been as ambiguous or as incomplete as the above.
> 

  I dismissed it for several reasons, first of all I would say that
  since it bears no signature and it is a typewritten document it
  was easy to forge it. Second we never eared about the Jews who were
  drives to USSR in 2 separates columns, but Staeglich made some
  good comments on other aspects that are weird.

   Your main argument is top say that if it was a forged document
  than the hoaxers would have write something clear and net,
  extermination-extermination-extermination everywhere.
  It wasn't an intelligent approach. Tons of documents, correspondance,
   letters, telegrams, high level documents signed were talking
  about the final solution as a programm of expulsion. There's
  no credible explanation that was giving up to now about the reason
  that could have push the German to use this 'coding terminology'.
  My belief is simple: it wasn't possible to forge tons of documents
  with the appropriate signature, to much risky, but ambiguous
  documents were offer to decrypt all the others. If those documents
  had speak ony about an extermination policy, than their role as
 a 'key' for decryption would be impossible. I consider simply that the
  hoaxers though that the safiest approach was to forge few documents
  but to use a mix terminology extermination-evacuation in those ones.
  Because it was their role to serve as a decryption key.
  


From jfbe@vir.com Fri Jun  7 12:45:52 PDT 1996
Article: 41655 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Nizkor: a real fake barber shop
Date: 3 Jun 1996 23:59:36 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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I remember this scene that I saw 15 years ago in the sery 'Holocaust':
A red cross delegation was brough in the vicinity of Auschwitz (well
I don't remember everything well) and they were show a fake camp were
the Jews were living well, a place were there was a barber shop, stores,
beautifull garden, and the red Cross delegation which was duped by the
SS. Back those days, I didn't know that there was no possible secret
for Auschwitz and I believed that this movie was reporting anything else
than propaganda.

  It is say also that in Treblinka the Germans used a fake design to
 fool the Jews, etc...

  I've see a dumb guy on another newsgroup recently who claimed proudly
 that the Nizkor leadrers were promothing freedom of speech.  Those who
 have observe here how they defend systematically any of the lobbyist
 who promote censorship (claiming that they do not) or how McVay try in
 advance to justify the deportation of Ernest Zundel have a good idea
 about  what exist behind the fake design.

   This fool who talked proudly about the Blue Ribbon campain didn't seem
  to have a good sense of observation. I've check the websites to which
 they built a cross link, and it is quite funny. I've not read all their
 stuff, but an important part of it and one could think that there's no
 effort to eliminate revisionnist sites. The American Civil Liberties
 Union present several cases, but I didn't see anything on revisionnism.
 One can become a member of this organization and receive emails about
 the current issues. However, what they defend generally is dummy issues.
 Example: we could believe that there's a major threath against cultural
 elements by rightist bigots, and we are propose an exhaustive list of
 sites that 'could be banned', perhaps hundreds, because they present
 sculptures, medical anatomic descriptions (scientific), or notorious
 classics (Twain, etc...) evidently, the biggots have not such a power
 and there's no risk to see those site being banned. I have VERY serious

 doubt that even the playboy site could be submit to censorship a day, not
 only because rightist associations have few power but also because
 there's so much money involve with half of internet users that such
 a thing as no chance to happen except for some specific elements,
 pedophily, etc...

    At another site we learn how our private life is systematicly violated
  when we visit a web site, how they can determine which kind of computer
  we are using, how much frequent we visit a site, the files we access,
  how much longer ,etc... Terrifiant! Big brother is checking us...
  After 2 hours of systematic scan across those files I didn't find what
  I wanted: one can take a look at those sites and check by himself,
  revisionnism ('hate speech') is certanly not in danger. It doesn't
  exist perhaps. True , Ernest Zundel have ask once to banned Schindler's
  list because it was hate propaganda against the Germans. I agree with
  him: it is. But I don't believe this was a good idea, I can't deny
  to someone else what he deny to me. But isn't the Nizkor leaders
  like McCarthy and Morris who had succed (very shortly and temporary) to
  shut up some of the guys they don't like (Giwer among other) with
  pressures? Fortunatelly there's a lot of providers.

  I 've visit those sites, and discover that there was, beyond the false
 story of fake barber shop in the Holocaust, real fake barber shops.




From jfbe@vir.com Sun Jun  9 10:24:36 PDT 1996
Article: 42048 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why is Nizkor?
Date: 6 Jun 1996 02:55:46 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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jmorris@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (John Morris) wrote:
>
> On 4 Jun 1996 16:23:57 -0400, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >I think Tom misunderstands Nizkor's purpose.  It is an all-purpose
> >archive.  As such, it is invaluable (the only thing it lacks is a cross
> >link to the other side, _they_ always cross link Nizkor.)
> 
> Au contraire: Nizkor links to several denier sites from its page at
> 
>    http://www.almanac.bc.ca/other-sites/promotion-denial.html
> 


  Seriously, NIZKOR is so huge that I'm not surprise that he got
 the same impression than me: 99% of the peoples who visit nizkor will
  miss that possibility while Zundel allow the link to your
 site on each of his page. From the topic 'other sites', even
there it is not obvious for an almost neutral guy like Ehrlich


From jfbe@vir.com Tue Jun 11 15:11:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42600 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Many things change
Date: 10 Jun 1996 22:57:36 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
>

>      Let us start with the cause of the war as we are told, that
> Germany invaded Poland and England, having a treaty with Poland,
> declared war on Germany.  There you have the way it is always
> presented, Germany is the villian and England the white knight.
>      But let me remind you of one thing you must certainly
> remember from history class; both Germany and Russia invaded
> Poland.  But as we know England, and soon after, France, only
> declared war on Germany and not Russia.  What is the explanation
> for this?  If England's reason for declaring war upon Germany was
> just then was it not equal cause to declare war upon Russia?
> 


  Never though to this one. It was under my nose for 2 decades
  but I never asked myself questions about it before. Well, I
  know why, but I'll keep this one in my bilological hard drive.


From jfbe@vir.com Wed Jun 12 10:37:04 PDT 1996
Article: 42725 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kids Stay Cozy in Gas Chambers
Date: 4 Jun 1996 23:25:04 GMT
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>
> 
> 	 "Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp"
> 
> 	"Jehuda Bacon was a 14-year-old member of the truck commando who
> had to retrieve ashes from the crematoria to spread onto the the icy
> paths during winter. He saw horrible events there, but also got to
> know Kalman Furman, who was always friendly to the teens and ready to
> help. Bacon remembers the '"Aryan"' kapo Jozef Ilezuk--a teacher who
> allowed children, upon completion of their work, to warm themselves in
> an empty gas chamber."
> 
  Yups, seems that the carbonized flesh around the bones have now
  turned into ashes.


From jfbe@vir.com Mon Jun 17 07:38:08 PDT 1996
Article: 43963 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Still waiting John...
Date: 16 Jun 1996 20:01:03 GMT
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 For those who are not aware, I was talking about the

 http://www.almanac.bc.ca/features/qar/qar42.html

 And you can't say that I'm still repeating on the same aspect John...


From jfbe@vir.com Mon Jun 17 07:38:11 PDT 1996
Article: 43964 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel: A Prominent false Witness (repost)
Date: 16 Jun 1996 19:16:33 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
Lines: 54
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne25.vir.com

kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote:
>
> In article , 
> Orest Slepokura  regurgitated Nazi propaganda from the
> "Institute of Historical Review," http://www.almanac.bc.ca/faqs/ihr/:
> 
l the false witness had some bad luck. Forced to choose from
> >among several Allied war propaganda lies, he chose to defend the fire lie
> >instead of the boiling water, gassing, or electrocution lies. In 1956,
> >when he published his testimony in Yiddish, the fire lie was still alive
> >in certain circles. This lie is the origin of the term Holocaust. Today
> >there is no longer a single historian who believes that Jews were burned
> >alive. The myths of the boiling water and of electrocution have also
> >disappeared. Only the gas remains.
> 
> Mr. Faurisson, I note, has not listed the historians who have
> written that no Jews were burned alive. I, however, know of a
> good many who, writing long after 1956, said precisely what
> Mr. Wiesel said: That Jews were indeed burned alive. Mr.
> Faurisson is, therefore, lying.
> 
 Well, Mr McVay, as you know I'm not a professional historian despite
 I could say that the reading of 70 or 80 books on this topic in 3 years
 is not negligeable neither. Nowhere I remember to have read a story
 similar to Wiesel's story in the most important books that were published
 over the last 25 years. My memory can be faulty here, but really I
 don't remember. Since your claim is that Faurisson lied when he said
 that this story was drop a while ago, that you know several historians
 who talks about peoples who were burned alive, I would like you to
 give

 a) their name
 b) the book and the page where it is written
 c) if they have a degree in history
 d) the date of the first publication

    Be carefull: I don't want a tale from an obscure Holocaust survivor
   who say that 2 persons were throw alive in a crematory oven. The story
   that is offer by Wiesel is that the Jews were burn alive outside by
   bunch of hundreds or thousands upon arrival (at _Auschwitz_).
   Since your main argument is to say that Faurisson is a liar when he say
   that this story was drop a while ago,  you wouldn't have any objection
   to document your claim for this specific aspect of Auschwitz with a book
   that was published in the last 25 years. Wiesel was ship to Auschwitz,
   and Faurisson claimed that his story is a lie because the historians
   have drop this story for a while. With your accusation, I'm expecting
   you to bring a relevant reference for Auschwitz.
   If you fail to respond directly, you can be sure that I'll keep track of
   that. Your honnor is on the pan of the balance Ken: I hope for you that
   a fly will alight on the other pan soon.

  Post and email to Ken McVay




From jfbe@vir.com Mon Jun 17 07:38:13 PDT 1996
Article: 43965 of alt.revisionism
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From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Still waiting John...
Date: 16 Jun 1996 19:17:55 GMT
Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal.
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NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne25.vir.com

 Well, this one is for John Morris...

 I asked you a question few days ago, and I'm still waiting for a response:
 The first time, you said that this canadian law about the coffin ashes
 was an error and that you asked to replace it. Right after, in 'error
 after error', I said:

>>Question 42:
>>

For example, Lagace is bound by law not to mix or comingle >>the ashes of one deceased person with those of >>another. Lagace and the IHR forget that two or three emaciated corpses >>could be inserted into each "muffle." This would, of course, >>never be done in a civilian, commercial establishment. > The problem is that I doubt strongly that a law state that the ashes > of a person must not be mixed with those of another person: unless > you bring the text of the law and the way to find it in a book... So I'm not talking about the original 'error' here but the second one. Does you silence here mean that this law about the mix of ashes between different deceased persons is also fictive? Post and email to John Morris  From jfbe@vir.com Mon Jun 17 07:38:14 PDT 1996 Article: 43966 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.mid.net!mr.net!chi-news.cic.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Censorship and Nizkor, Giwer: a global response Date: 16 Jun 1996 19:05:43 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4q1lu7$vq6@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne25.vir.com I've just spend few days in New York and with 22 emails in my box, I think it's preferable for me to respond to J.Morris, M.P.Stein and J. McCarthy about the 'Giwer issue' in a single message. First, in 'a real fake barber shop', the reference to censorship from Jamie McCarthy and Morris against Matt Giwer was a small sentence in the whole message. I've already explain how it happened: I'm not checking all the messages here, and I wasn't there apparently when M. Giwer posted 13(?) times the wannsee minutes. I remembered to have catch randomly a message of J. Morris where he gave a public duplicata of his complain to Matt Giwer's provider and where he said that students in Alberta couldn't access the newsserver and alt.revisionism because the system was overload. Since Matt Giwer is posting a lot of messages here, I assumed that they were refering to his normal output, and J. Morris told me a couple of days ago that his letter asked to not expell Matt Giwer but to give him a warning about the Wansee minute. I don't know if the private part was identical, but since I've no proof of the contrary I will assume that it was. Now I've receive several email from M.P. Stein where he talks about mail bombing and other things. I'm not aware if Matt Giwer did mail bombing and if so, if he did it in retaliation to mail bombing directed against him. We are now entering into details where I can hardly judge and this is why I prefer to not continue on that. I've read quickly something from J.Morris a couple of weeks ago, Matt Giwer who was complaining about that and I figure he's the guy who is more able to talk for himself. I said recently that I 'halfly apologize', because I wasn't aware about all the details, and 'hafly' here is simply there because I'm not accustom to trust entirelly your statements, John. It seems that M.P. Stein came back on that and ask me to retract. What more is need now? I believe that some Nizkor leaders are in favor of censorship, and I've not to retract about this. I've no formal proof actually, but you can be sure that I'll pay more attention in the future to grab such evidence if it is present in some occasions. There's half-evidence that I mentionned previously in 'a fake barber shop', the remaining of the stuff. I've not to apologize for a belief that I consider as the correct one. In this case, some emails from M.P. Stein didn't appear yet publically and I can't talk about it till I won't see Matt Giwer's response. Post and email to M.P. Stein, J. MacCarthy  From jfbe@vir.com Mon Jun 17 07:38:16 PDT 1996 Article: 43998 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nazi Medical Experiments: Freezing, I Date: 17 Jun 1996 02:07:10 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 46 Message-ID: <4q2eke$j71@Vir.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne60.vir.com dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: > > Report by SS-Untersturmfuehrer Rascher about intense cooling experiments > in Dachau concentration camps, 10 September 1942 > [Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals - > Washington, U.S Govt. Print. Off., 1949-1953, Vol. I, p. 220] > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > The experimental subjects were placed in the water, dressed in complete > flying uniform, winter or summer combination, and with an aviator's > helmet. A life jacket made out of rubber kapok was to prevent > submerging. The experiments were carried out at water temperatures > varying from from 2.5 to 12 Centigrade. In one experimental series, > the occiput (brain stem) protruded above the water, while in another > series of experiments the occiput (brain stem) and back of the head > were submerged in water. > > Electrical measurements gave low temperature readings of 26.4 in the > stomach and 26.5 in the rectum. Fatalities occurred only when the > brain stem and the back of the head were also chilled. Autopsies of > of such fatal cases always revealed large amounts of free blood, up > to one-half litter, in the cranial cavity. This one is one of the *rare* articles from you which is based on something else than the SS confessions of pseudo-crimes in the climat of terror that was prevailing after the war in the NMT procedures where irregularities occured on an almost systematic base. I was aware about those experiments, but I didn't know that the SS wrote about it in their documents. Here we have an accurate example of what happened in a totalitarian state: few price for human life, especially those who are consider as an inferior race, and experiments that where conducted not by pure sadism but because the Nazi stated tried to find by experimentations how to spare the life of the pilots who fall in La Manche (between england and france) and how to resist to climatic difficulties in cold water. Nothing to do with the caricatural picture of the 'German beast' who were torturing on a large scale without any purpose, just for the fun, but a real fact about a cold calculus where the western 'ethical' had little weight. The allied did their crimes, but the Nazi were not angels neither. What I find interesting here is that the same state which is suppose to have adopt specific carefull (and fishy) measures to not leave any trace of the crime with gas chambers didn't try to destroy those records for Dachau. Guess why. From jfbe@vir.com Tue Jun 18 22:50:32 PDT 1996 Article: 44384 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!fish.phl.pond.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.comm.net!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: The Jahrling document Date: 18 Jun 1996 02:54:37 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <4q55pd$usu@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne29.vir.com The preferate document of D. Keren is the Jahrling document, something allegedly written by a SS name Jahrling who claimed that the crematoria capacities in Auscwitz-Birkenau was 4,756 corpses in 24 hours of operations (28 june, 1943). I've already give some reasons why I thought it was a forgery. Since I had an opportunity to take a look at A.T.O. again recently, I was able to make some interesting comparisons: On pages 223-224, 2 letters from Jahrling about coke consumption are reproduces: (documents 32 et 33). The references given are: P.M. BW/3034 page 68 P.M BW 30/34 P54 When I compared those 2 signatures, they were identical for those 2 genuine documents, but totally different from the signature that appear on the famous document that claim 4,756 corpses a day! Morever, the circunstances about the discovery of this 'document' are a bit nebulous: >Jahrling BW 30/42 2 pages > letter of the 28 th june 1943 from the Auschwitz Bauleitung to the WVHA-SS > in Berlin concerning the cremation capacity of the five krematorien at Auschwitz-Birkenau. > photocopy transmitted on 15 th may 1981 to the curator of the Auschwitz > Museum by the committee of anti-fascist resistants of the German democratic > republic > Jahrling sent this letter to the general SS Kammler in Berlin This is what I wrote on my sheet a week ago. So you have the picture: the other Jahrling documents were microfilm right after the war among a lot of other documents, but the '4,756 corpses' 2 pages document was 'discover' 35 years after the NMT trials by the committee of anti-fascist resistants of the German democratic republic', at a moment where revisionism started to put some pressure...  From jfbe@vir.com Wed Jun 19 02:07:59 PDT 1996 Article: 44458 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!winternet.com!n1ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Elie Wiesel, a Prominent false Witness (repost) Date: 18 Jun 1996 23:49:10 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 93 Message-ID: <4q7f9m$qel@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne21.vir.com >kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >> Well, Mr McVay, as you know I'm not a professional historian despite >> I could say that the reading of 70 or 80 books on this topic in 3 years >> is not negligeable neither. Nowhere I remember to have read a story >> similar to Wiesel's story in the most important books that were published >> over the last 25 years. My memory can be faulty here, but really I >> don't remember. Since your claim is that Faurisson lied when he said >> that this story was drop a while ago, that you know several historians >> who talks about peoples who were burned alive, I would like you to >> give >My initial reaction to the article published by Mr. Slepokura >was simple - I have read accounts of people being burned >alive, and I said so. But you said also that _because_ of that Faurisson was lying. See below. >> a) their name >> b) the book and the page where it is written >> c) if they have a degree in history >> d) the date of the first publication >> Be carefull: I don't want a tale from an obscure Holocaust survivor >> who say that 2 persons were throw alive in a crematory oven. The story >Now you are qualifying your request. Fair enough, but if you >expect me to re-read every book on the shelf to satisfy you, >you will be disappointed. What I will do is keep this request >in mind, and do the best I can to satisfy it. Fair enough? >> that is offer by Wiesel is that the Jews were burn alive outside by >> bunch of hundreds or thousands upon arrival (at _Auschwitz_). >I did not see such figures in the quotes attributed to Wiesel >in Slepokura's article. Can you point them out to me? The >article is archived here in ~/people/s/slepokura.orest/slepokura.0696. >Perhaps he says this in "Night?" If so, please provide a >citation, so I can see it. I don't know if I'll be able to find 'night' in Montreal, but I'll try later. However, I have read a comment from Bradley Smith about this story in 'confession from a Holocaust revisionnist', (book 2 or 3) that I have somewhere here. The story that Smith gave via what he read in 'Night' is that Wiesel was walking with his father and that a long line of jews were going passivilly, without reacting, in the direction of a fire. Upon arrival. You said sooner: >Now you are qualifying your request. Fair enough, but if you I've good reasons for that. Faurisson didn't say 'in Auschwitz', but since he, you, me and several others know that Wiesel was deported in Auschwitz- Birkenau then since your claim that he lied when he said that 'historian no longer believe this story' (or something like that) than it mean impli- citelly that a story about mass burning in Treblinka is irrellevant to attack Faurisson's credibility on this point. And since he said 'historians', the testimony of a witness who still claim that 1 or 2 persons were burned alive in an oven at a moment is not a 'proof' that Faurisson lied when he rejected Wiesel's story about _mass_ burning outside. I'm responding to D. Keren here and to you in the same post. My claim that Faurisson statement is right here is simply based on the fact that over 70 or 80 books that I read, a third or half of them anti-revisionnist, including Danuta Czech 'chronicle', this story is not mention. >> Since your main argument is to say that Faurisson is a liar when he say >> that this story was drop a while ago, you wouldn't have any objection >> to document your claim for this specific aspect of Auschwitz with a book >> that was published in the last 25 years. Wiesel was ship to Auschwitz, >> and Faurisson claimed that his story is a lie because the historians >> have drop this story for a while. With your accusation, I'm expecting >> you to bring a relevant reference for Auschwitz. >> If you fail to respond directly, you can be sure that I'll keep track of >> that. Your honnor is on the pan of the balance Ken: I hope for you that >> a fly will alight on the other pan soon. >I will indeed keep an eye out for such a citation - and I will >ask others to do so as well. In the meantime, you shall >simply have to wait patiently. My little finger tell me that you won't find such a thing, and you know too much the Holocaust to ignore that the mass burning outside would be count in 'the chronicle' if such an event was believe by the exterminationnist. Or does it mean that you accuse Faurisson to lie about it without beeing sure that he's wrong for this statement?  From jfbe@vir.com Sat Jun 22 13:21:48 PDT 1996 Article: 10997 of soc.history.what-if Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:16:22 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 186 Message-ID: <4qh9p6$bn1@Vir.com> References: <4q1dcc$q3u@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne29.vir.com alanrw@cheetah.cs.man.ac.uk (Alan R Williams) wrote: > > In article <4q4gu8$b24@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > > If you are indeed correct, then in fact revisionism is completely on > topic. Or can in not be discussed in any context? > > There is a newsgroup dedicated to the discussion of revisionism: > alt.revisionism. soc.history.what-if is for discussion of what would > have happened if past events had not happened as they did. > Revisionism is the denial that past events did happen and so is not on > topic in this newsgroup. > I think I saw in one of his email (I missed the begining here) that he asked: what would it be if the Holocaust never happened'? In my case, I prefer a question like: what would it be if the holocaust DID happen? In such a case, we could find, among the huge amount of documents that the Nazis left behind them, a huge amount of reference to an extermination policy. If the Holocaust, in the sense of what is describe as an Holocaust today, not the death of a million or more jews accounting for epidemies, tough working conditions in the camp, or isolated progroms, but in the sense of the systematic liquidation of 6 million Jews in gas chambers would be a reality, than we couldn't expect so few resistance of the Jews to their deportation during the war. And especially, if the Holocaust, in the sense that most of the people interpret it today, was based on anything real, than we could expect a large amount of informations about Auschwitz flowing out of Poland over all the war. Here's why: First of all, the usual statement that the Germans have tried to keep secret their extermination policy is completely ridiculous. This 'attempt to preserve the secret' is often used to explain why the high level German documents captured by the Allies refer to the 'Final Solution' as a program for the expulsion of the Jews from Europe. The Auschwitz complex was built close to an important agglomeration. Many ci- vilians worked there during the day and went home in the evening. On page 62 of his 1993 study 'Les Crematoires d'Auschwitz', the anti-Revisionist author Jean-Claude Pressac (who uses German documents) writes: "For the Birkenau cremator- ies, the Germans gave the contracts to 12 civilian enterprises [...] Each working site was employed between 100 and 150 workers, a third of them civilians." The number of ovens was growing with years with the expansion of the camp, and the maintenance was unavoidable. Auschwitz was critical for the Allies: Synthetic rubber production was important for the Americans, and it is not surprising that many air photo missions concerning this camp took place. The huge backwardness of the Americans concerning the fabrication of synthetic rubber after the lost of their usual source in Malaysia in 1941-42 didn't permit them any choice: they had to know everything about Auschwitz, and there's no doubt that they took measures to pick up as much information as possible. We know, that the Americans had broken the German military codes. Over two and a half years there was no mention of mass gassing in any intercept in spite of the Germans being unaware that their codes had been cracked. But there is even more, in 'The Terrible Secret', the Jewish historian Walter Laqueur gives some hints in spite of being no manner of Revisionist. From him we learn (page 25), that Auschwitz was an archipelago, that thousands of inmates were frequently shipped to annex camps, mixed with civilians across Silesia, that hundreds of civilians were working at Auschwitz 1, that journa- lists were travelling freely in this region...This is the same author who says that there were hundreds of liberations in 1942-4, among them several Jews (page 169). But also there were hundreds of escapes in those years! In 'The Final Solution', Reitlinger talks also of a a radio receiver that was active in the inmate barracks over a period of months. Admiral Canaris, chief of the counter-spying agency of the Third Reich, was a double agent. He gave much information to the Allies during the war, but said nothing about alleged mass liquidations at Auschwitz. There was organised resistance in the camps. Groups of communists, Jews and others were able to send information out of the camp. A fairly accurate picture of this resistance is given by the book 'Fighting Auschwitz'. As stated, it was impossible for the Germans to avoid some contacts between the inmates and the local population. Many Poles were, indeed, members of the resistance, and some inmates had conversations with local populations when they were brought out of Auschwitz to execute miscellaneous labour tasks. Sometimes these civilians hid food and for the inmates. Often, the SS in charge of the commandos were faking ignorance about those things in exchange for food or gifts. (See for example Garlinski, 'Fighting Auschwitz', pages 43-5). The contacts with the local population were developed in such a way that letters and parcels could be sent out of the camp by the internal resistant cells of Birkenau and Auschwitz on a regular basis. A group of the Cracovia resistance was in regular touch via letters. In this town were preserved 350 of those letters, 'a small fraction of a very much more important total' (Langbein, 'Hommes et femmes a Auschwitz', page 252). Letters successfully reached the Netherlands also. In spite of this, such records are used to endorse the extermination claim. As Butz pointed out, quoting L. Dawidowicz in her intro- ductory chapter (page 221): "One impediment was inadequacy of Jewish documentation in spite of its enormous quantity... The absence of vital subjects from the records may be explained by the predicament of terror and censorship; yet, lacking evidence to corroborate or disprove, the historian will never know with certainty whether that absence is a consequence of an institutional decision not to deal with such matters or whether it was merely a consequence of prudent policy not to mention such matters. The terror was so great that even private personal diaries, composed in Yiddish or Hebrew, were written circumspectly, with recourse to Scripture and the Talmud as a form of esoteric expression and self-imposed reticence." Garlinski mention also this story about the radio transmitter/receiver which was active over 7 months in 1942 in Auschwitz and due to its contacts, the direction of the Silesia local AK ceil (Armia Krajowa) was soon able to find the wavelength used by the transmitter. (Garlinski, 'Fighting Auschwitz', page 126). The Armia Krajowa, or the interior (or secret) army was formed in 1942 from a previous resistance movement. It was organised like a real army. In 1944 the AK could count on about 300,000 members. In Birkenau there was a secret organisation created in April 1942 by Colonel Karcz. Contact between the Birkenau organisation and the main camp of Auschwitz took place on a daily basis. The main task of the Karcz group was to provide information to the AK elements outside. In 1942 the organisation of W. Pilecki, an ex-Polish officer, could count on 1000 members between Auschwitz and Birkenau (Garlinski, 'Fighting Auschwitz', pages 97-8). In 1942-43 the resistant groups in Auschwitz were so powerful that they controlled the Hospital, the kitchens, the main office and had their agent in key positions. The activity of the resistance in the camp had a specific purpose: feed the Polish government in exile with exhaustive information about the events that were occurring in the Nazi camps. The AK could count also on the complicity of a few SS to transmit some messages outside (Garlinski, 'Fighting Auschwitz', pages 206-8). But often, messages were simply transmitted with the liberation of inmates (Laqueur, 'The Terrible Secret', page 169 and Garlinsi, 'Fighting Auschwitz', pages 54-5 & 112). Communications between Poland and London were relatively easy for the Resis- tance. The general Bor-Komorowski, commandant of the AK, said that clandestine radio messages were regularly transmitted to London and that for the year 1942-43-44, there were almost 300 such messages per month. (T. Bor-Komorowski, 'The secret Army', page 150). Another source of information was the microfilms which were sent to London on a monthly basis. The Polish Resistance had about 100 radio transmitters which were able to reach England. But other messages were brought by newsmongers who were travelling to Sweden (neutral) and then Great Britain. Recently I obtained a copy of one of the most notorious Revisionist pamphlets: 'The Auschwitz Lie', by Thies Christophersen. Christophersen is an ex-German officer who had worked in one of the camps peripheral to Auschwitz: Raisenko. This booklet is not notorious not because one could qualify it as a big scien- tific contribution to Revisionism, it's just a small pamphlet where an officer talks about his personnel experiences, (he visited Birkenau several times in 1944). The notoriety of this pamphlet, published in 1973, is mainly due to a false reference that can be found: a fictive Red Cross report that is supposed to claim that no more than 300,000 Jews died in WWII. Because of that, 'The Auschwitz Lie' received immediately the status of 'Bible of the Revisionists', and one still finds frequent reference in European books or magazine to this pamphlet and this fictive reference with the development (hint as sth): this is the Bible of the Revisionists, it contains a lie, so the Revisionist are just liars and it is a good thing that Revisionist material is banned since the public must be protected against those lies by people who will tell them what they must read. What amazed me the first time I took a look at it wasn't the fact that this false reference was just an isolated one among several others that were valid, it was to see that Christophersen didn't invent it: he just quoted a real Brazilian newspaper that didn't check before publishing this report about the 'Red Cross Report'. Anyway, from Christophersen, we learn that SS families were able to visit the soldiers without any major problems in Auschwitz. We learn too that inmates from Birkenau were frequently shipped to other camps and could establish contact with the local population. This fact, as I said, was subsequently confirmed by the anti-Revisionist historian Laqueur. Now, first statement: Hoess, in his 'confession', supposedly given without any coercion, testified that when Himmler ordered him to establish a program of mass extermination in his camp (a verbal order to keep the secret) he received also instructions not to discuss it with Gluecks, general inspector of the camps, because absolute secrecy was necessary. Can you believe that? (suite, next message) From jfbe@vir.com Sat Jun 22 13:21:49 PDT 1996 Article: 10998 of soc.history.what-if Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!news.ner.bbnplanet.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Subject: Re: Matt Giwer, Holocaust Revisionsism Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:20:15 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 161 Message-ID: <4qha0f$bn1@Vir.com> References: <4q1dcc$q3u@apakabar.cc.columbia.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne29.vir.com alanrw@cheetah.cs.man.ac.uk (Alan R Williams) wrote: > < suite of the previous message> We will take a look now at the usual propaganda over the war. The american Arthur Butz, especially, was the first to do an exhaustive inquiry about it. What is clear from his review of american newspapers is that the propaganda about mass extermination started as sson as 1942. It was mainly statements made by zionist officials, Chaim Weizman among others, that were often related to an appeal for the opening of Palestine to jewish immigration. Several camps or atrocities are mentionned, Belzec, Chelmo, Sobibor, Treblinka, and the accusations take miscellaneous forms: jews who are shot, report about mass electrocution of jews in Belzec, gasing methos in Treblinka, poison, sometimes the use of wagons were lethal gas is used. It looks like the usual scrap that any war is normally generating: propaganda. Several of those accusations were drop after the war. I was able to find recently a rare book: 'the black book of the polish jewry', publish at the end of 1943. This book is totally consistent with the war propaganda that can be found in the newspapers: Chelmo, Treblinka, story of atrocities, in some cases details: 250 jewish children allegedly killed in a jewish sanatorium, elsewhere 50 jews executed in a township, the book is a collection of war propaganda, probably a mix of thruth an falsehoods, an over few hundreds pages we have an idea of what kind of stories were used by several jewish organisations which had their large network of informant across Europe. Nowhere Auschwitz is mention, despite the mass gasing of jews is supposed to have start in the spring of 1942. The index, that contains a large amount of places were atrocities are allegedly comitted, do not contain the name of Auschwitz. Several minor stories, but nothing about the gasing of hundreds of thousand of jews there. Enrique Aynat made a deep inquiry with the review published by the polish government in exile in London, the 'Polish fighting review'. It is similar stuff. Several stories about atrocities against jews were put in circulation by this review ( the informations were received in the same way that what was explained earlier, from the A.K.) but Auschwitz appear just few times before 1945. But there's more: when it appear, it is not in connection with mass gasing of jews. It is about case of torture, hard work, the tough conditions of the inmates who have to work for the military production. An example of that can be find in the 1 july 1942 article (n0 47) where it is mention that the German use syringue to kill prisonners of Bikernau. There's a base of thruth: the method was at least used for the uthanasy of prisonners who were affect by the catastrophic typhus epidemy of 1942, but there's no evidence that it was use to liquidate them because of an extermination policy. In several other articles during 2 years, very 'low level' details about some inmates who died are given, and in a case it is say that few hundred russian prisonners were gased at a specific date. What is astonishing here is that over 2 years and a half, the systematic murder of hundreds of thousands of jews seems to be ignored while the polish resistance is suppose to be aware of a single gasing of russian pows at a time. There is also a reference to the gasing of polish childrens at the end of 1943, despite today we never speak about the gasing of poles. But among the huge amount of propaganda that was published over those years, this is all. Before the mid 1944, the atrocities were generally not concerning Auschwitz and when it was th case, the mass gasing of jews was not mention. Ken McVay up to know have just bring one tele- gram sent during the war from a spy (Schultz) who played a role in the diffusion of propaganda. However, Schultz do not mention Auschwitz but a project that was discuss to kill Jews with Zyklon B in Berlin (in the future). The telegram was sent while the gasing operations had allegedly start a while before and Schultz source is even not Auschwitz inmates account but an obscure meeting of SS officers. With the huge amount of propaganda and scrap that talk about electrocutions, vapor chambers, etc... this is weak. The story about the mass gasing of jews in Auschwitz began really in the summer of 1944 in the allied newspapers, and then we can say that the persons who were spreading the atrocities stories had no choice: the other camps were shut down several months before. First remark: such stories are not 'a proof' of mass gasing, simply because propaganda and false accusations were always a part of war, and second because those accusations were made in connection with a call to allied countries for negotiations with germans. The zionist leaders of that time had clearly an objective in the mind: put pressure on the British and force them to allow the opening of the Palestine borders to jewish immigration. Israel was not existing yet, and the arabs were the majority there. Several declarations in the newspapers let no ambiguity about it. Second remark: the real problem is that it is hard to believe that such mounstruous events, the gasing of hundreds of thousand of jews over 2 years, could be absent of publications like the 'black book of the Polish jewry' while minor stories about the executions of 50 jews in a small township are present. That book was publish expresselly for the sake of propaganda, to talk exhaustivelly about the anti jewish persecutions. And it is not because Auschwitz was 'secret'. We can have a clear indication of that with the anti-revisionnist author Martin Gilbert in 'Auschwitz and the allied', p 340. After an exhaustive review of the documentation, he conclude that Auschwitz was absent of the war propaganda before the mid 1944. There it's like to say that events like those that happend in Rwanda did exist over 2 years but that despite information was collected on a daily based by A.K. agents in Bikernau and Auschwitz 1, nobody seem aware of it. Imagine 2 Rwandas over 2 years and nobody within that country noticed anything during this period except at the end. Third remark: such an absence of propaganda would be more acceptable for camps like Belzec, simply because those one were more isolated, there was not an important towniship beside, there was not hundreds of civilians who worked there, inmates were not frequently reshiped in the vicinity of the camps and able to have contact with civilians, Belzec was not of any strategical importance for the american since it hadn't any Buma plan industry: the inmates were suppose to arrive there and to be killed quickly, nothing else. But what we have in the WWII propaganda is the opposite: no possible secret for Auschwitz, but it is there that an unexplanable silence was keepen. It must be say also that according to the post war confessions, Auschwitz was suppose to be the 'metropol' of the extermination, the main camp. At Nuremberg, the bulk of the extermination story was built on Auschwitz. Fourth remark: The story about the 'revelation of the secret' is of an uncommensurable absurdity. The WRB report, published in 1944, is suppose to be an accurate description of the nature of Auschwitz. The american press revealed that 2 inmates escaped and were able to go in Switzerland to give a very accurate description of the gassing procedure and the installations in Auscwitz. The authors of the WRB report stayed anonymous during 16 years despite it had be more credible to present those ones immediatelly. They stayed anonymous for 16 years and the jewish writter Reitlinger was a bit bothered in the first edition of the final solution about this fact but those ones were produced before the second edition of his book 150 miles away from his Sussex domicile (London). Rudolph Vrba, author of a best seller a bit later, 'I cannot forgive'. Vrba is suppose to had the false identity of Walter Rosenberg in Auschwitz despite he wrote that the other inmates called him 'Rudi'. Several, a lot of contradictions exist in Vrba's 'memories', Vrba as many knows was obligated to admit that he lied on many things in the cross -examination of 1988 (Zundel trial). Let say just that when I read Vrba's book, I saw that his escape had a specific purpose: give a warn to the whole world about the fate of the jews in Auschwitz, 'breaking the secret' in other words. One have just to read the previous message to realize that it is ridicoulous. Vrba could not have escape and be charge of such a mission simply because hundreds of escapes occured before his alledge escape. Despite the inconsistences in his testimony, Vrba's credibility is essantial. The defenders of the legend can conceed that an obscur eye witness could have lie, but Vrba is a kind of detonnator, a domino: since he talk about his entertainment with F. Muller at the camp, since the key eyewitness Sonderkommando F. Muller said also that he spoke with Vrba several times in Auschwitz, if one of the testimony is false, the other collapse. If Vrba testimony is false, then one would have to explain why the real authors of the WRB report never challendge Vrba's story. And then we would conclude that the WRB report wasn't writen by S.Kommandos but by higher rank propagandist who had a large amount of datas available: this is where the story began.  other informations at: http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith From jfbe@vir.com Sat Jun 22 13:21:50 PDT 1996 Article: 10999 of soc.history.what-if Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework Date: 22 Jun 1996 17:38:31 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 357 Message-ID: <4qhb2n$bn1@Vir.com> References: <4q4ht4$qno@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne29.vir.com Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history.what-if:10999 alt.revisionism:45310 neume001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Craig J Neumeier) wrote: > > mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > > > What if the position of revisionists were the alternate history? > > What is usually meant by the "revisionists" is those who claimed that the > Holocaust never actually happened. There are two ways to approach this > as an AH: > > 1) Suppose the revisionists were right; everything looks exactly as it > does today, but in fact the Holocaust never happened. What are the > implications? Robert Anton Wilson said it best: > "I merely observe that a conspiracy that can deceive us > about 6,000,000 deaths can deceive us about *anything*, > and it takes a great leap of faith for Holocaust > revisionists to believe WWII happened at all, or that > Franklin Roosevelt did serve as President from 1933 to > 1945, or that Marilyn Monroe was more "real" than King > Kong or Donald Duck." > I think this is rationally undeniable. Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation, especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount of documents, including the Dachau death records and most of the inmates who died did it in the last 4-5 months of the war. Guess why. The fact is that revisionism has now reach many people, far-rightist, leftist, socio-democrat, because of it scientific contain. It was easy to claim at the begining 'revisionism is just a Nazi doctrine', but it is hard to explain how a growing number of people, several who hadn't any neo-nazi activity inb the past but a good scientific background can join such an heresy. Because it is based on other things than 'It didn't happen because it didn't'. With time, it is the opposite that seems to happen: the holocaust promoters offer their post war testimonies and the revisionist are using the opinion of neutral experts. I did my own inquiry among several crematory operators and discovered soon that Nizkor's claim that a normal body could be cremate in half an hour wasn't based on ANY real crematory operator opinion. I wrote that piece before, and their response was clearly beside the question: CREMATORIA The Revisionist claim is usually supported by the affirmations of Ivan Legace, a crematory operator from Calgary who has been subjected to smear attacks >from the Holocaust lobby in alt.revisionism. I hadn't really the time to involve myself on this topic, I'm working 40 hours a week, and I've no connection with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which can raise billions of dollars for the construction of Holocaust Museums. However, I never heard about any crematory operator who was produced in a court case by the Ho- locaust lobby to support the claim that 4 bodies can be reduced to ashes in 30 or 45 minutes in a crematory oven. My first knowledge of the topic was limited, than I got an interview with M. Marc Poirier (Funeral House Magnus Poirier, Montreal) and a phone interview with a chemist who is main- taining several crematoria in Quebec. Later, I got several phone interviews: with M. Denis, from 'Incineration Plus' (Montreal); S. Ouellet (Urgel Bour- gie Funeral House, Montreal); J. Choiniere, Crematorium d'Arche (Longueuil); a man from 'le Cimetiere du Bas du Fleuve'; M. Cloutier, from Le Cremato- rium Mont-Royal. The first thing that must be said is that Auschwitz crematoria were operating at 800 degrees Celcius approximately, according to the annex of an anti-Revisionist book, "Les chambres a gaz ont existé", by G. Wellers. An annex to the book shows the source: report of the Polish War Crime In- vestigation Commission and Jan Sehn. This communist commission claimed right after the war that the Nazis were able to cremate 3 or 4 people in 20 or 30 minutes per oven at a temperature of about 800 degrees. Cremato- ries were not operating at 1,200 to 1,600 degrees like today's crematoria in those days; they were less technologically developed. The first thing that must be said is that nowhere was I told that the cremation took less than about 2 hours for a normal body. The range was between two hours to two and a half hours. To that one must add a pre- hea ting period of 30 minutes for the first cremation of the day. A Cana- dian law states that the after-burner region must have a temperature above 1000 degrees Celsius before beginning the cremation. The after-burner is a part of the structure where a little wall slows down the evacuation of the combustion products and where a flame is applied to those ones. The purpose is simply to burn the remains of the primary combustion and avoid the ex- pulsion of pollutants into the atmosphere. In the case of the Auschwitz ovens, we are told that the period of operation was limited in the time: the Krema 1 at Auschwitz 1 (six ovens) was just sufficient to dispose the bodies of the inmates who died from or- dinary causes (typhus, other diseases) and the main crematoria of Birkenau started to work only after February 1943. It was also documented by the anti-Revisionist write Jean-Claude Pressac that those crematoria were sub- jected to several breakdowns, especially Kremas 4 and 5 but also the other two. One of the two latest was shut down finally in the same year but even the other one stopped operating for several weeks in miscellaneous situa- tions. The Auschwitz camp was evacuated in January 1945. Normally a crema- tory must be cleaned up and is not operating 24 hours a day. Nevertheless, the claim nowadays is that about a million people died in Auschwitz-Birkenau and that most of them were cremated there. According to the latest version of the Nizkor FAQ: more than 700,000 in Kremas 2 and 3. These had 15 ovens each, the crematorium buildings 4 and 5 had 8 ovens each. All of that in less than 18 months, with several breakdowns. My inquiry gave me the possibility to learn also the average quantity of air that is evacuated from a crematory in Quebec: about 625 cubic feet per minute, or 1400 cubic metres per hour. In the case of the Auschwitz ovens, the figure that can be derived from the data present in "Anatomy Of A Death Camp" is about 2,000 cubic metres per oven. In that case, we have a figure of 33% less air that is applied to the corpse in a crematory here, but also a figure for a temperature that is 75% higher. The claim that a body could be cremated in 30 minutes is difficult to support with physical evidence here. Multiple corpses in an oven: The Auschwitz ovens dimensions were about 1 metre in diameter, and se- veral corpses were allegedly incinerated at a time to increase their effi- ciency. Everywhere I was told that the cremation of a body is directly re- lated to the volume which is occupied. A normal corpse takes between two hours to two and a half hours to be cremated, an extremely obese corpse much more time, and the lower limit that the chemist and those crematory opera- tors knew was about an hour and a quarter. In some other countries, the cremation time seems to be faster (there are few variables on which one can play) since some Revisionists have already given figures like 1 hour 30 minutes for a normal body. In that case, the oxygen intake is probably hi- gher. The ratio surface/volume to burn is also one of the factor that in- fluences the faster cremation. The combustion of the corpse is just the oxidation of its molecules with the oxygen that is brought into the muffle. An analogy could be drawn with the combustion of a log: cutting it into thin slices will reduce the combustion time. In the case of the Birkenau ovens, packing the muffles would result in a drastic drop in the air intakes. The heads and shoulders of the corpses would stop the path of air molecules and fewer could reach the most important part of the body that is offering a large surface: the trunk. A good analogy is that of a window you open lightly to let air in. Since there's little space available, several corpses piled up in the muffle would not allow a maximisation of the surface that it offers to oxygen: abdomens would be in contact with backs, etc...Cremation specialists often use the equivalent in pounds to estimate the cremation time, they use datas like 'a 150 pounds body' or a '250 pounds body', etc... Nizkor claim that emaciated corpses wouldn't take as much time to cremate, and this is true, however they ignore the fact that most of the Jews allegedly gassed were supposelly killed upon arrival. Photos of new inmates who arrived at Auschwitz do exist (1) and these, contrarily to the Jews who were victims of typhus and shortage over months in camps at the end of the war have nothing in common with famished-looking persons. It is 90 % of the persons allegedly cremated in the Holocaust story. There is also an attempt to use the argument that most of the victims were children, but this is plainly wrong: a simple study that uses the lists that are provided by the Holocaust lobby itself (eg Danuta Czech in "Auschwitz Chronicle") shows that the children among the victims could not account for more than 20%. The best way to cremate a million Jews was simply to built more cremato- ria. The author Arthur Butz gave a wonderful parallel several years ago that must be summarise (2): There are two tables which are available for the crematory ovens. Most of the deaths in Germany's camps occurred at the end of the war when the chaotic con- ditions of the defeat created large scale shortages and boosted the mortality rate, according to mortality statistics that the SS were using for those camps (the documentation related to the official mortality rate, registration books and so on were seized by the Allies). On the other hand, most of the deaths in Auschwitz occurred during the summer of 1942-1943 with typhus epidemics. It is said usually, even on the Nizkor site, that the majority of Jews who were de- ported to Auschwitz were not registered, and vanished without trace because the Germans didn't record their names in their files, they gassed them on arrival. Only the Jews who died from ordinary death were registered in the death book. Jews who were sent to other camps were not tattooed. At the end of 1942 a campaign was launched by Himmler to fight typhus and, as he stated in a letter, to reduce the mortality rate at 'any cost' (3). On January 20, 1943 Gluecks, inspector of the camps, in a circular addressed to all the Commandants of Nazi camps, ordered them to fight the too high mortali- ty rate 'with all the available means'. Other documents (4) attest of this exchange between Pohl, Himmler and Glucks on that topic and one could also find a more accesible source about this campaign by reading Reitlinger, _The Final Solution_, First edition, page 127. On September 30, 1943 Pohl was able to report progress in a letter to Himmler. What is interesting is that he provides the statistics about mortali- ty rates in miscellaneous camps: from July 1942 to February 1943 the mortality rate was about 8% while it dropped to 2.8% in June 1943. An interesting aspect is the August month: August 1943 population death % Dachau 17,300 40 0.23 Sachsenhausen 26,500 194 0.73 Buchenwald 17,600 118 0.67 Mauthausen 21,100 290 1.37 Auschwitz 74,000 2380 3.1 etc.... Again, exterminated Jews in gas chambers are not included in this internal correspondence. If we look at mortality rates due to natural causes we can see that the number of ovens is almost comparable with camps where there is no ex- termination claim. In 1942, crematoria were constructed in Dachau and Sachen- hausen: each had 4 ovens. At Dachau there were 2 ovens before 1942 (samething for Sachsenhausen). At Buchenwald there were six. In Auschwitz the number of ovens was between 30 and 46, depending on the period. The number of inmates grew to 100,000 at the end of 1943. But there's another way: Dachau and Buchenwald wee in Germany and as 'non- extermination' camps, they can be used for the comparison if we want to see the intention of the Germans when they launched the construction of crematoria rather than when they were functional and compare it with the death rate there. In the previous case, Auschwitz seems a bit better equipped with crematoria than the other camps if we take into account the mortality rate, but if we look back at the moment when the decision to build crematoria was taken, here we get even a lower proportion of crematoria/death record for Auschwitz than for camps in Germany, sometimes by a factor of two. If we just take the year 1942, 45,575 inmates died in Auschwitz and 2,470 in Dachau (5). But it is at this moment that the SS launched the construction of most of the crematoria, so we can have a clear idea of what they had in the mind: Auschwitz was half as well equipped with crematoria as Dachau, according to normal death figures, probably for budgetary constraints. The main reasons for the high death rates in Birkenau were the typhus epi- demics of 1942-1943 for which Germans lost the control and also the fact that many sick inmates were shipped to Birkenau, according to documents (it was, indeed a death camp). Permanent use? I will add an observation here: if we are told that the crematories were operating 24 hours a day, than we will need to substract 4 days from that. The worst period of the extermination process, according to the legend, is the summer of 1944, when 300,000 to 400,000 Hungarian Jews were allegedly liquidated and cremated in Auschwitz in two months (6). The story is that thousands of bodies were burned in open pits since even the 'fantastic' cre- matoria of Auschwitz were not able to dispose of 5,000 to 10,000 bodies a day. And in that story, the crematoria were working 24 hours a day over this period also. It was normal for the U.S. Air force to take photos of a target before and after the bombardment. Before, to evaluate the defense, after, to evaluate the damaged. The I.G. Farben industrial complex of Auschwitz-Monowitz was bombed at the end of the summer, and 4 photos, taken by U.S. airplanes, give a picture of Birkenau during this critical period: The May 31, 1944, the June 26, 1944, the August 25, 1944 and the September 13, 1944. In none of the pho- tos can one see any trace of thousands of bodies burned in open pits. Morever, on the 4 photos, there is no smoke released by the crematoria chimneys! (7). The fuel: The average quantity of fuel that is necessary to burn a body in a crema- torium today is about 23 cubic metres of natural gas, or the equivalent of 30 to 35 kg of coke if we convert with calorimetric data. In the 20s, things were not different, and since the author J.C. Pressac reproduces the documents that deal with coke deliveries to Auschwitz-Birkenau ( A.T.O., 1989 ), it is possible to estimate approximately the number of people who were cremated there. 2,200 tons of coke, or the equivalent of 70,000 to 100,000 persons if we account for a proportion of 20% children. The coke shipments to Birkenau give a figure that matches almost perfectly the death registers of the camp. The documents: There are very few documents that are normally adduced to 'prove' that Birke- nau's crematoria were able to dispose of so many people, most of the 'proofs' are based on post-war eyewitness testimonies. However, it is not bad to look at the 2 main ones: The Jahring document (28 June, 1943) says that the 52 muffles of Auschwitz- Birkenau were able to reduce to ashes 4,756 corpses per day with a 24 hour a day operation. The date of the document matches the period when several major breakdowns were affecting Birkenau's crematoria (the SS were trying desperately to repair it at that time, as Pressac documented). The origin of the document as given by Pressac is the 'Committee of the Anti-fascist Resistance of the German Democratic Republic. According to the text, this document seems to have been 'discover' in ... 1981 in GDR, at a moment where revisionnism became suddenly a threat and then transmit to the Auschwitz museum. If one examine the documents in Pressacs book, 'A.T.O', he could clearly see that the 'signature' below this one do not looks like Jahrling signature on 2 other documents produced after the war (reproduces on page 223 and 224 of A.T.O) There was no reason for the SS to claim such an output at the moment that they had so many difficulties with those crematoria: this document is a forgery. Morever, in the other document reproduce on page 224 the crematoria operated only 12 hours a day. Another document that is used on the anti-Revisionist side: 'Fritz Sander and Paul Erdmann, Prufer's superiors at Topf, estimated an output of 30 to 36 bodies in 10 hours [...]' (8). The reference is Weimar, LK 6451, letter Topf July 14, 1941. According to the rest of the text, the best I could understand is that this was a double muffle furnace. In Pressac's book there are several references to contract invoices, and not only for Auschwitz: it seems that Pressac had access to a huge amount of letters and documentation that were written over 10 years, the number of quotations about the crematoria is impressive. I would not be surprised if he met several references to lower cremation output in those let- ters. Nevertheless, the documents that are usually used to 'prove' those crematoria output are rare: 2 or 3. It is possible that this letter exaggerates the outputs a bit for 'selling purposes'. It is said too that the first cremation was car- ried on only on August 15, 1941 with that furnace. This means simply that this claim in the letter, probably, was not based on something that was observed but on an hypothetically optimistic estimate. In short, it is worthless. Other informations on: http://www.webcom.com/~ezundel/english http://www.valleynet.com/~brsmith http://www.kaiwan.com/~ihrgreg Notes And References (1) The Auschwitz Album (2) "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century", by Arthur Butz, 360 pages, published by the Institute for Historical Review, P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 U.S.A. (3) (document 2172-PS, Reitlinger, "The Final Solution", First edition, page 127). (4) (1469-PS, NMT, Volume V, page 372) (5) Butz, page 378 (6) "Debunking the Genocide Myth: A Study of the Nazi Concentration Camps and the Alleged Extermination of European Jewry", Introduction by Pierre Hofstet- ter, Translated from the French by Adam Robbins, published by the Institute for Historical Review, (1978), page 246. (7) "Air Photo Evidence", John Ball, Samizdat Publishers, 206 Carlton Street Toronto, Canada M5A-2L1. [Around 10$ US plus ship- ment, (416) 922-9850]. (8) (Anatomy of a Death Camp, page 189).  From jfbe@vir.com Tue Jun 25 12:50:10 PDT 1996 Article: 45889 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!portal.gmu.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.bconnex.net!clicnet!news.clic.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism Subject: Revisionism as a framework Date: 24 Jun 1996 19:42:59 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 62 Message-ID: <4qmr43$ip5@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne2.vir.com Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history.what-if:11133 alt.revisionism:45889 kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: Date: 22 Jun 1996 13:44:40 -0700 >> Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews >> who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic >David Irving "concedes" that at least 4 million died. Do try >and get your stories straight. David Irving is not the only revisionnist historian, and this figure that he gave once was in his mind a 'maximum'. The majority of the revisionnists, including the statistician Sanning don't agree with this figure. >> conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation, >> especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system >> collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just >> get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount >Interestingly, the SS didn't seem to have a problem with >starvation... the guards at the camps were happily plump. Can >Mr. Beaulieu address that issue? Yes, easilly. The first reason that came to my mind when I asked myself the same question a year ago was in no 2 of RHR, an account about the Dachau liberation. The story is that the 520 german guards who were slaughters by the US soldiers were just relieving troops who were ship there to replace the others few days before. The statement wasn't done to 'explain' this situation, but I remembered that specific paragraph when the question came to my mind. However, it is not the main reason to me. In several photos taken right after the liberation of the camps some inmates are really well feed. Some others are familic. There was obviously a double standard in the camps. Paul Rassinier, an ex inmate, wrote his account about the long period he spent in Buchenwal-Dora. In his book, he explained how the worst ennemies of the inmates were not the SS during some periods but other inmates, often the kapos. In prison, there's gangs that always exist and a rivilaty between those gangs. The concentration camps were not an exception. Several inmates had priviledges, because they were affiliated with the most powerfull gang (communist sometimes, ordinnary criminals other times...). The corruption was there on a large scale, the most lucky inmates (like Rassinier) were still receiving parcels from his familly despite the SS were picking up their own part, a 'tax'. The people there were not united against the SS, far from that: they had their own rivalities. They were not equal. In this case thus, it is not surprising that sevral inmates at the liberation were in a relative good shape while several others were starving. If you need 15,000 portions of 2,000 calories a day for the inmates and the collapse of the railroad system lead to the delivery of only 5,000 portions, it is not hard to guess that a group of 300 or 400 SS guards will be able to survive easilly with this 'tax', and several well placed inmates also. It doesn't mean that the starvation is due to a specific plan. Now we will see if you can adress this issue: in 1942-43, the Germans launch a campain to drop the mortality rate in Birkenau (and all the camps) due to typhus and this have leave written records. They succeeded to reduce drastically this mortality rate a year after. How could one pretend that there was a deliberate attempt to kill the inmates with starvation in that case? From jfbe@vir.com Tue Jun 25 20:20:21 PDT 1996 Article: 45971 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!hookup!solaris.cc.vt.edu!portal.gmu.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.bconnex.net!clicnet!news.clic.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework Date: 24 Jun 1996 19:40:17 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 187 Message-ID: <4qmqv1$hee@Vir.com> References: <4q4ht4$qno@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4qhb2n$bn1@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne2.vir.com Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.history.what-if:11149 alt.revisionism:45971 neume001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Craig J Neumeier) wrote: > neume001@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Craig J Neumeier) wrote: > Your response is utterly beside the point, which is why I've cut it all. > The revisionist claim requires disregarding the evidence of literally >thousands, of eyewitnesses, both camp survivors and Nazis from Speer and >Eichmann on down. Either they were all lying, in which case they are part >of a vast conspiracy, or their testimony is faked, in which case a vast >conspiracy would need to be responsible. (There is a hell of a lot of >physical evidence which would also have to be faked, but concentrate on >the testimony.) > If you claim that all that evidence is lies or deception, how do you >know that all the people who claim to have met FDR weren't lying? It >wouldn't be any more difficult to fake the one than the other. First, you main point seems to be that a large conspiracy where thousands of Jews met to draw the mainlines is impossible. Second point, you claim: how do you know that they lied? The response to the second point is given by the impressive quantity of arguments that the revisionnist have pile up over decades. I could give several others here, but they are presents into books and websites The response to the first one is more subtil. First, there's no claim that all the eyewitness met together to lie. However, there's a claim that gradually, an impressive number of lies have emerge. Lying about someone you hate is not an extraordinnary fact: the John Demjanjuk case have show clearly that an Holocaust survivor testimony is not something that one must consider as an irrefutable proof of anything, far from that. On a topic that do not rise up so much emotivity, the normal human behaviour is more ethical generally. The main element that can pulverize this ethical barrage that we have, this self impose restriction that lead us to tell the truth most of the time is hate. If you hate someone, you can tell yourself that it is ethically correct to lie, something that you wouldn't do in another circunstance. To me, Jews had serious reasons to hate the Nazis. In spite of the absence of a systematic extermination policy, they were persecuted heavily. It is the oldest weapon of war: propaganda. You take fictive or real facts and you distorse it for your political agenda. Jews are not an exceptions. Hate, however, is not a unique reason. But this reason alone do not require the existence of a giant conspiracy where Jews would be organized like an army for a definite purpose. I've notice that several camps survivors describe a scenario that is not necessarelly related to an extermination policy. I remember a tv programm were a Jew explained how a german officer saved his life: he was shipped into a camp were he didn't see any gas chamber (it wqas in Poland, but not one of the 6 usual camps) and described how the conditions were tough, how epidemies were decimating them during some periods, how they were beaten by the kapos, and so on. Later he said, a new SS commandant (a 'rightist' like Schindler) was promoted there to replace the other commandant. Life conditions improved, and he gave even 2 or 3 annecdocts were the commandant was kind. After that, at a specific date, several Jews tried to escape and were forced to hide with weapons in a barrack. 'Then the extermination restarted', was the commentary of the speaker. The Jews were killed by the SS. At the end of the war, Jews were evacuated toward Germany and the man survived, in his account, because the SS commandant was a rightist. In all the programm, the word 'extermination' appeared several times, but if I'm taking the story he gave, I can interpret that in another way: there was never any extermination policy but persecutions, one of the commandant was more human than the other, the SS didn't shoot the Jews to 'restart' exterminations but because they tried to escape, and so on.. Several accounts are of the same kind. After the war, publicized trials were organized and those ones had at least a specific purpose: denazify Germany, show to the german people how their leaders were mad. The irregularities in those trials have been largelly documented by revisionnists, including prooven cases of torture, intimidation and so on. It is easy to take Hoess confession, or those of another german officer, but how would you react if someone threat to send your familly in Siberia if you don't collaborate? I'm not claiming that torture was used always, but it is clear and net that after the 'evidence' offer by prior 'confessions', the best method to avoid the gallow wasn't to contest the alleged crimes but to shift responsability on someone else. In this case, the winner of the war can impose is self vision more easilly. If I'm facing a tribunal were the staff is convince in advance that I'm guilty, because it is the widely accept version, challendging the previous 'confessions', the belief of the winers, is a pure suicide. There's also a claim from some revisionist that those trials had a specific purpose: build 'evidence' that could lead Germany to pay reparations to Jews and the future state of Israel. In other terms, a racket. The last time I've read about this it was in one of Zundel's power news letter, where he documented this claim with some Jewish official declarations during the war and post war period. I've not those files in front of me but I can search. One of the arguments that I read in the anti-revisionnist litterature was that Israel wasn't yet existing when the trials took place. This is true and I had serious doubts at a time about the story of reparations to Israel as a purpose. There was at this moment a massive immigration toward Palestine and the emergence of a Jewish state later was in the air. However, I wasn't at Nuremberg, spying Kempner or Marcus conversations to get a real picture. This claim is based normally on the high proportion of Jews in the Nuremberg staff, but my idea about it actually is that despite there was clearly a political exploitation of the Holocaust right after the war, the main purpose of the Nuremberg trials was not to punish the Nazi leaders but to denazify Germany. Charging the Nazi leaders with as much crimes as possible was the best method. After the war, but during also, there was a large amount of reported stories on Nazi atrocities that were drop several years later. Several non Jews lied also: they were talking about their political ennemies and, as I said, there's no major surprise here. Several witness of mass gasing appeared only decades after the war . Some others started to spread those stories sooner. The Nuremberg trials were establish to built those 'proofs', and due to the large publicity that surrounded it, a door for 'safe' lies was largelly open. The ex Nazi camps inmates became suddenly miracoulous survivors, heros, and people were eager to ear their stories. Their was no attempt to ask those people to justify their stories. No opposition. I'm calling that a snow ball effect. There's some holocaust survivors who acted in a calculated way, some people who were there to beat the drums. But in many cases, occasional liars act in such a way because they are looking for publicity. They catch the wave. And a new kind of false witness have appear after decades, those who really had a clear picture of what was the reality at the begining, but who gradually mixed up their souvenirs with the strories that they eared after WWll. Dr. Elizabeth Loftus, is a specialist of those questions. She wrote a book which deal with the behaviour of memory under autosuggestion and its reliability into normal court cases. After 4 decades, one can claim sincerelly that he witnessed a gasing in that way but it can be based on a mixed of real events and falsehoods. Let say this person is present at a selection upon arrival. If the extraordinary mediatic noise over 4 decades report gasing witness, if the childrens of this person told him (her): how awfull it was certanlly for you to see all those people being gased, to ear their cry, and so on, the story that this person can remember 4 decades after is not the same. You will say that with such an argument, anyone can deny that the Boer's war happened, but this is different: first, there was no advantage for the people to invent this story at the begining, and we know also that people act _during_ the events as if it was a reality. In the case of the mass gasing in Auschwitz, people didn't act as if it was a reality: no information about mass gasing of Jews emerge from the camp till the mid 1944 despite the fact that it was impossible to hide such a thing for this camp (see my 2 postings about this 'secret nature of Auschwitz') Morever, as soon we look at the 1944's story, we face a witness (Vrba) who's credibility was demolish at the Zundel trial because of the numerous lies in his account. This is not normal. Finally, if memory and witness are not trustable, physic is trustable and than, with the nature of revisionnist arguments, the crematory argument, among others, is not an attempt to opbscur the 'facts'. When you state that revisionism imply a giant conspiracy, this is not true. I consider that several jewish institutions have use the Holocaust to support their own agenda. In this case, I can, in some cases, believe that such or such Jew who use the Holocaust to promote a pro-zionist agenda believe what he say. Some jewish institutions have use largelly the witness accounts to boost the Jewish nationalism, using the leitmotiv 'never again' to rise up Jews against real or fictive ennemies. In this mythology, Jews were always the poor victims over centuries and almost noone is not guilty of a crime or another against Jews. There's a base of truth, Jews were persecuted at some moments, but here the claim is boost as much as possible. I figure that the important amount of inter-racial marriages actually is not independant of such a speech. However, what I mean here is that for a jewish political organisation which is there to promote a specific agenda, the thrutfulness of this or that witness account is irrelevant: the essantial is that it work. In this case, I can imagine perfectly a Jew who is strongly involve with an organisation like the ADL and who believe any witness account. His way of thinking is not: lets built as much false account as possible to feed the propaganda, but lets look for the existing accounts and use it since it is the right thing to do for Jews. This person is not interest to know in advance if the account that is used is true or not: if it appear to be false, than the word 'antisemit' will be use to shut down any criticism. There's definitivelly several Jews who lied from A to Z rather than partly, people who knew from the begining. But here the number of those ones is hard to know for me. I've no doubt, as a matter of fact, that Elie Wiesel and Wisenthal know perfectly from the begining what they are doing. They occupy a high position. However there's no need for me to imagine x thousands Jews who have frequent meeting about 'how to use our lie', this is not the way things works. The evolution of the Holocasut exploitation, its gradual growth till the dimension we know today was done gradually, by people who hadn't any knowledge of the other in several cases, because there was no opposition to it. A kind of contagious effect. From jfbe@vir.com Wed Jun 26 07:18:36 PDT 1996 Article: 46049 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.cdsnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:28:10 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 67 Message-ID: <4qnfba$a9h@Vir.com> References: <4q4ht4$qno@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31C89BEF.4F95@dircon.co.uk> <4qcj57$17t@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: > Well, it's not for Matt Giwer but Ken McVay but I've big problem with some messages here to align my response under the right one actually, 'no such message' is often the response... Ok Ken McVay wrote: >> Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews >> who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic >David Irving "concedes" that at least 4 million died. Do try >and get your stories straight. David Irving is not the only revisionnist historian, and this figure that he gave once was in his mind a 'maximum'. The majority of the revisionnists, including the statistician Sanning don't agree with this figure. >> conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation, >> especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system >> collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just >> get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount >Interestingly, the SS didn't seem to have a problem with >starvation... the guards at the camps were happily plump. Can >Mr. Beaulieu address that issue? Yes, easilly. The first reason that came to my mind when I asked myself the same question a year ago was in no 2 of RHR, an account about the Dachau liberation. The story is that the 520 german guards who were slaughters by the US soldiers were just relieving troops who were ship there to replace the others few days before. The statement wasn't done to 'explain' this situation, but I remembered that specific paragraph when the question came to my mind. However, it is not the main reason to me. In several photos taken right after the liberation of the camps some inmates are really well feed. Some others are familic. There was obviously a double standard in the camps. Paul Rassinier, an ex inmate, wrote his account about the long period he spent in Buchenwal-Dora. In his book, he explained how the worst ennemies of the inmates were not the SS during some periods but other inmates, often the kapos. In prison, there's gangs that always exist and a rivilaty between those gangs. The concentration camps were not an exception. Several inmates had priviledges, because they were affiliated with the most powerfull gang (communist sometimes, ordinnary criminals other times...). The corruption was there on a large scale, the most lucky inmates (like Rassinier) were still receiving parcels from his familly despite the SS were picking up their own part, a 'tax'. The people there were not united against the SS, far from that: they had their own rivalities. They were not equal. In this case thus, it is not surprising that sevral inmates at the liberation were in a relative good shape while several others were starving. If you need 15,000 portions of 2,000 calories a day for the inmates and the collapse of the railroad system lead to the delivery of only 5,000 portions, it is not hard to guess that a group of 300 or 400 SS guards will be able to survive easilly with this 'tax', and several well placed inmates also. It doesn't mean that the starvation is due to a specific plan. Now we will see if you can adress this issue: in 1942-43, the Germans launch a campain to drop the mortality rate in Birkenau (and all the camps) due to typhus and this have leave written records. They succeeded to reduce drastically this mortality rate a year after. How could one pretend that there was a deliberate attempt to kill the inmates with starvation in that case?  From jfbe@vir.com Wed Jun 26 08:04:33 PDT 1996 Article: 46049 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.cdsnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!tezcat.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Revisionism as a framework Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:28:10 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 67 Message-ID: <4qnfba$a9h@Vir.com> References: <4q4ht4$qno@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31C89BEF.4F95@dircon.co.uk> <4qcj57$17t@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: > Well, it's not for Matt Giwer but Ken McVay but I've big problem with some messages here to align my response under the right one actually, 'no such message' is often the response... Ok Ken McVay wrote: >> Revisionnist conceed that there was at least a million of Jews >> who perished during WWll, accounting for the poor hygienic >David Irving "concedes" that at least 4 million died. Do try >and get your stories straight. David Irving is not the only revisionnist historian, and this figure that he gave once was in his mind a 'maximum'. The majority of the revisionnists, including the statistician Sanning don't agree with this figure. >> conditions of the camp (typhus,cholera), persecutions and starvation, >> especially at the end of the war when the german railroad system >> collapsed under allied bombardments and that food could just >> get into the camps seldomly. The German leaved behind then a large amount >Interestingly, the SS didn't seem to have a problem with >starvation... the guards at the camps were happily plump. Can >Mr. Beaulieu address that issue? Yes, easilly. The first reason that came to my mind when I asked myself the same question a year ago was in no 2 of RHR, an account about the Dachau liberation. The story is that the 520 german guards who were slaughters by the US soldiers were just relieving troops who were ship there to replace the others few days before. The statement wasn't done to 'explain' this situation, but I remembered that specific paragraph when the question came to my mind. However, it is not the main reason to me. In several photos taken right after the liberation of the camps some inmates are really well feed. Some others are familic. There was obviously a double standard in the camps. Paul Rassinier, an ex inmate, wrote his account about the long period he spent in Buchenwal-Dora. In his book, he explained how the worst ennemies of the inmates were not the SS during some periods but other inmates, often the kapos. In prison, there's gangs that always exist and a rivilaty between those gangs. The concentration camps were not an exception. Several inmates had priviledges, because they were affiliated with the most powerfull gang (communist sometimes, ordinnary criminals other times...). The corruption was there on a large scale, the most lucky inmates (like Rassinier) were still receiving parcels from his familly despite the SS were picking up their own part, a 'tax'. The people there were not united against the SS, far from that: they had their own rivalities. They were not equal. In this case thus, it is not surprising that sevral inmates at the liberation were in a relative good shape while several others were starving. If you need 15,000 portions of 2,000 calories a day for the inmates and the collapse of the railroad system lead to the delivery of only 5,000 portions, it is not hard to guess that a group of 300 or 400 SS guards will be able to survive easilly with this 'tax', and several well placed inmates also. It doesn't mean that the starvation is due to a specific plan. Now we will see if you can adress this issue: in 1942-43, the Germans launch a campain to drop the mortality rate in Birkenau (and all the camps) due to typhus and this have leave written records. They succeeded to reduce drastically this mortality rate a year after. How could one pretend that there was a deliberate attempt to kill the inmates with starvation in that case?  From jfbe@vir.com Fri Jun 28 09:10:51 PDT 1996 Article: 75276 of talk.politics.mideast Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.french Subject: Re: Citizenship for children for non-citizens Date: 27 Jun 1996 01:30:17 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <4qso79$c7n@Vir.com> References: <4qa8n3$4ug@kruuna.helsinki.fi> <4qbgbc$ja@news.tamu.edu> <4qf3tv$h8e@kruuna.helsinki.fi> <4qhds8$j85@news.tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne37.vir.com Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.mideast:75276 soc.culture.israel:36994 soc.culture.palestine:17228 soc.culture.french:64746 iskandar@ee.tamu.edu (Alexandre Khalil) wrote: > > Salut > > If a child is born on French territory to non-citizens, what are the > conditions under which this child will be granted citizenship by the > French state. > > Merci > > alex > Perhaps I'm not the best guy who can give you an accurate answer since I'm living in Canada, but I think that he will receive it as soon he'll get 18 years' old. I'm surprise that no one of them have respond to that, but if I'm wrong I suppose they will correct it. From jfbe@vir.com Fri Jun 28 10:17:31 PDT 1996 Article: 11257 of soc.history.what-if Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!uunet!in1.uu.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.ac.net!news.bconnex.net!clicnet!news.clic.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Subject: Hitler's top mistakes Date: 24 Jun 1996 19:46:41 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4qmrb1$f5g@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne2.vir.com dberry@hooked.net (Douglas E. Berry) wrote: >>wabi@mail.carinthia.co.at (Helmut Wabnig) writes: >> >>Given that the USSR was probably about to attack Germany I >>don't think anyone can call this a mistake. The mistake was >>to get into a position where Stalin was in a position to >>attack Germany with the support of the West ie to invade >>Poland in alliance with the Soviets. >Excuse me? The Red Army was in a near stand-down when Hitler launched his >assult. It took months of work, horrendous casualties, and a severe winter to >slow the wehrmacht down. There is absolutley no evidence that Stalin was even >thinking about attacking Hitler. >> The fact that the soviet army was in serious trouble do not mean that Stalin didn't prepare soviet Union for a war, this is a false conception. The American engineer John Scott, who had been working in the USSR untill 1942, described the Soviet preparation for war as follow: 'The Russian defense budget doubled almost every year, Huge reserves of war materials, machines, fuels, food and other supplies were stored The Red Army grew from about two million in 1938 to 6.5 million men in the spring of 1940'. (Scott, John. Jenseits des Ural: Die Kraftquellen der Sowjetunion, Stockolm p 301, quote by W. Sanning, 'the dissolution of eastern european jewry'. At the end of March 1941, 500,000 reservists were called up and placed in the military districts bordering the German frontier. Staline put the majority of the conscript soldiers along the Rumanian border. The oil fields of Rumania could have give him a big advantage over Germany. The rumanian espionage learned of Stalin's remark to the effect that a war was unavoidable. In April, the Soviets instructed their commisars that they should be prepare for a cruel and long war with Germany. (D. Irving, 'Hitler's war, p 234-238), 1977) Both countries had an artificial alliance of circunstances, but the soviets, with the stories about successives annexions in Poland and Baltic states, were not peacefull neither, both state were expensionnists. But if your statement: >slow the wehrmacht down. There is absolutley no evidence that Stalin was even >thinking about attacking Hitler. would be true, than I'd have to conclude that all the USSR spying services were blind and that they gave a blank check to Hitler. The conflict was unavoidable, and Staline would have launch his own operation, he knew that one of the 2 dictators in Europe had to vanish.  From jfbe@vir.com Sat Jun 29 07:30:49 PDT 1996 Article: 46639 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!en.com!news.his.com!news.frontiernet.net!news.texas.net!bertha.pyramid.com!olivea!sgigate.sgi.com!esiee.fr!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history.what-if Subject: No gas chamber in the old reich, sorry! Date: 27 Jun 1996 20:18:58 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 85 Message-ID: <4quqbi$dv6@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne28.vir.com Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:46639 soc.history.what-if:11300 I was too sick to work today and I took a look to some old post in alt.revisionism. I've not read all the stuff surounding Wiesenthal's declaration in 1975 but several post however. The way it looks is: Matt Giwer brought Wiesenthal statement that there was no extermination camp in Germany, and sevral other guys say 'ya, but that that doesn't mean that there was no gas chambers which were used to kill few thousand prisonners'. I hadn't the time to read those discussion but that's a bit regretable since I've something to say. First, this admission is older than that, as Butz pointed it in 'the hoax of the twentieth century', page 47, Stephen S. Pinter, an american lawyer, who was stationed there, wrote in 1959 to 'Our Sunday Visitor'(14 june 1959, p.15), a catholic newspaper: "I was in Dachau for 17 months after the war, as a U.S. Department attorney, and can state that there was no gas chamber at Dachau. What was shown to the visitors and sightseers there and erroneously described as a gas chamber was a crematory. Nor was there a gas chamber in any of the other concentration camps in Germany. We were told that there was a gas chamber at Auschwitz, but since it that was in the Russian zone of occupation , we were not permitted to investigate, since the Russian would not permit it. [...]uses the old propaganda myth that million of Jews were killed by the national socialists. From what I was able to determine during six poswar years in Germany and Austria, there were a number of Jews killed, but the figure of a million was certanly never reached, I interviewed thousands of Jews, former inmates of concentration camps in Germany and Austria, and consider myself as well qualidied as any man on this subject." It is known by several english speaking revisionist that Martin Broszat, a notorious member of the Munich (Munchen) modern history center sent a letter to the magazine 'Die Zeit', 19 august 1960. The title was 'no gasing at Dachau'. In this letter, Broszat claimed (in the french translation I have): "Neither at Dachau, nor at Bergen-Belsen, nor Buchenwald Jews were gassed. The gas chamber of Dachau was never finished and use.[...] The liquidation of Jews by gas took place only in rare places were the appropriate installation were build, in Poland (but nowhere in the old Reich): in Auschwitz-Birkenau, Sobibor, Treblinka, Chelmo, Belzec[...]. This letter fron Broszat wasn't du to a sudden moment of honesty, but rather a catastrophic attempt to repare a mistake. The 12 august 1960, a week before, Die Zeit published a serious attack against the american general Unrein. The title ('out'! 'Weg mit ihm!') was follw by a serious critic about some revelations. This general stated earlier to Lord Russel of Liverpool that the 'gas chamber of Dacahau' was just a shower. The general Unrein stated also that he had serious doubt about the 6 million figure. Some reader of the magazine, according to Faurisson, sent letters to say that Mr Neuhausler gave similar remarks about the Dachau 'gas chamber'. Rassinier had already publish several books about his experience as an inmate in Buchenwald-Dora, and it was highly risky for Broszat to have an open confrontation with U.S. officers. With the previous letter from Pinter, it is obvious that such a public debate would have lead Broszat in a oneway an mine his credibility. Despite Broszat attitude, as a notorious anti-nazi activist, was to keep silence on the stories about mass gassing in Germany during the 15 previous years, the best move was simply to drop it fast at this moment. No historian questionned Broszat to ask 'why suddenly the SS confessions are wrong', 'why the witness are suddenly wrong?', this version was immediatelly accept, and no one asked Broszat why the SS confessions and the witness of Auschwitz were more credible. According to the letter written by Broszat in the context, it is clear and net that he conceeded the gas chambers in all the old Reich. However, since revisionnist started to question this Broszat decision at the end of the 70's, then suddenly the 'hollohugers' started to play with words: Dachau was mention, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald but not Mathausen or some other camps. The concept of 'the old reich' is sometimes stretchable, and thus we are told that in Mathausen or the Hartheim' castle there was a gas chamber. In some other cases, when a revisionnist start to claim the the witness of Buchenwald lied because of Wiesenthal's book, than a subtility is introduce between the existence of a gas chamber and an extermination policy. There was no such subtility in Broszat declaration: he talked about gas chambers, and he didn't claim that Hartheim was used or Mathausen. If he had start to play with subtilities, then his position was impossible to maintain. This is not the case today: the head staff of the US army which was there passed away certanly. From jfbe@vir.com Sat Jun 29 13:21:12 PDT 1996 Article: 46766 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Denier's True Colours Date: 24 Jun 1996 21:34:23 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 62 Message-ID: <4qn1kv$r2e@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne8.vir.com John Morris wrote: >> I reserve the right to respond to any post that in any manner mentions >>me in any manner. >> I will continue to do so until this crap stops. >> That is not a problem with me in the least. This can become a spam >>conference as I control it (as has been publically acknowledged) or it >>will get down to cases on my terms. >> There is nothing in between. >> I hope you folks come to understand this. >Matt Giwer announces his intention to destroy discussion on >alt.revisionism until such as time as the discussion is entirely on >his terms. I've search 'spam' in my dictionnary, not there... However the best I can unders- tand his statement, he claim that he will continue to defend himsel as far as people attack him, and that he can 'get down to cases on his terms', something I think I understand as 'driving the conference the way he want'. I never eared this expression before, however isn't Jamie McCarthy who was refering to alt.revisionism as 'our' conference? (yours) Yes, he's 'controlling' this newsgroup in a certain sense, due to his large output. What do you think, that alt.revisionism is your exclusive baby? I don't know if you are trying to justificate in advance something that looks like censorship. Any word that he pronounce is taken as a 'justification' for something, and I'm not blind. I've not the time actually to involve myself a lot, but you can be sure that if a (second) cut from his provider happen, the true face of Nizkor will appear. It is not 'your' newsgroup, if someone exasperate you as much as you exasperate many people here, this is your problem. I've read somewhere that some people here consider Giwer as a liar, a troll and so on. Let's talk about what I saw on the opposite side now: During six months I've see distorsions, insults and games like: 'you claim something without prooving it' while the guy did it a week before. In your case, I couldn't say that vulgarity is frequent but I've discover gradually that several of your statements, despite they appear sincere on a first glance, were based on forgeries that you call 'errors'. The last game is to take a topic that was already discuss, the question fuel/heat loss and to claim that my statement was that the human body fo not provide an exothermic reaction. You know prefectly that my last statements were not of that nature, but that the heat production wasn't compensing heat loss due to the cheminey. You then take one of M. Stein account from a crematory operator and you claim that this one was demolishing my statement !!! It wasn't far from that and you know it. I'm sometimes tired of this lying game in which you perform well, but I'm not so surprise. Ya , Giwer is not a triumph of modesty, he admit it himself. He's definitivelly not doing anything that could looks like a war based on the rules of chevilry, he shoot on the ambulances. This is the thing that exist on the opposite side for 3 years at least. I've not see him trying to justificate in advance your expelling from alt.revisionism however. Let see if you'll be able to face the 'Giwer problem' in the next months. From jfbe@vir.com Sun Jun 30 09:34:23 PDT 1996 Article: 46874 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4% Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:10:37 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4qnead$aln@Vir.com> References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com "Duncan Coons" <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote: > > > > > jamie@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Jamie McCarthy) wrote in article > <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>... > > > NIZKOR URGES ALL ALT.REVISIONISM READERS TO COMPLETELY IGNORE HIM. > > > > To ignore him most effectively, use a KILL file on your news reader: > > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/killfile > > An idea truly worthy of Nizkor. But I have a better one. Why don't > Nizkorians kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all > Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of > reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two > newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow. > Wonderfull! The only problem is that I would miss Daniel Keren and Mark Van Alstine postings, and this I don't know if I'll support it. I'm reading _each one_ 5 times a day, and enjoy the style and the originality, what's a lost. Someone may have put something in my coffee. From jfbe@vir.com Sun Jun 30 09:34:24 PDT 1996 Article: 46875 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!zombie.ncsc.mil!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!newsflash.concordia.ca!news.nstn.ca!ott.istar!istar.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: MATT GIWER REPORT for Jun 14-16: 22.2% / 26.4% Date: 25 Jun 1996 01:18:19 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <4qneor$aln@Vir.com> References: <4q9tq6$cbm@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default> <4qdeo8$nqj@atlas.uniserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne41.vir.com jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: > > In <01bb5f39.2dc9e000$5bded3c6@default>, "Duncan Coons" > <104670.3420@compuserve.com> wrote: > > > Why don't Nizkorians > > kill all Giwer's posts, and revisionists/deniers can kill all > > Nizkor's. That way no-one will ever suffer the painful indignity of > > reading material he disagrees with, and we will in effect have two > > newsgroups for the price of one. Peace and harmony will follow. > > If you were paying attention, Mr. Coons, you would know that I most > certainly do not ignore revisionists/deniers. I pay them quite a > bit of attention. I've carried on discussions with (to name a few) > Jack Wikoff, Bradley Smith, David Cole, David Irving, Andrew Allen, > Alexander Baron, and I'm trying to discuss something with > Jean-Francois Beaulieu but technical difficulties are making it hard... > I'm sure that they will improve crematorie's performance before the 22 th century Jamie, don't turn desespair, with a bit of tenacity... > Anyway, the point is that none of those people has announced that > their goal is to take over the newsgroup and make it a place where > discussion is next to impossible. None of those people is flagrant > net abusers who troll just to stir up trouble. And all of those > people at least had some interest in discussing matters with me. > > Giwer is just a troll, and he's out to destroy discussion. There's > nothing wrong with ignoring someone who has those goals. A small question: in your statistics about articles from Giwer but especially 'about Giwer' that monopolized this newsgroup, did you include several of your statistic reports and R. Green 'following list' or do you count them apart? From jfbe@vir.com Sun Jun 30 15:31:21 PDT 1996 Article: 64746 of soc.culture.french Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!Rezonet.net!Vir.com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.french Subject: Re: Citizenship for children for non-citizens Date: 27 Jun 1996 01:30:17 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <4qso79$c7n@Vir.com> References: <4qa8n3$4ug@kruuna.helsinki.fi> <4qbgbc$ja@news.tamu.edu> <4qf3tv$h8e@kruuna.helsinki.fi> <4qhds8$j85@news.tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne37.vir.com Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca talk.politics.mideast:75276 soc.culture.israel:36994 soc.culture.palestine:17228 soc.culture.french:64746 iskandar@ee.tamu.edu (Alexandre Khalil) wrote: > > Salut > > If a child is born on French territory to non-citizens, what are the > conditions under which this child will be granted citizenship by the > French state. > > Merci > > alex > Perhaps I'm not the best guy who can give you an accurate answer since I'm living in Canada, but I think that he will receive it as soon he'll get 18 years' old. I'm surprise that no one of them have respond to that, but if I'm wrong I suppose they will correct it.

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