The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/a/alexander.roger/2001/alexander.0103


From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:47 EST 2001
Article: 870153 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <97l1i1011rq@edrn.newsguy.com> <3A9F2C33.443FFBF5@tampabay.rr.com> <97nj76$2nui$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 58
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:09:42 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983563668 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:07:48 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:07:48 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174738 soc.culture.israel:327821 soc.culture.usa:603332 alt.revisionism:870153 soc.culture.canada:258860 soc.culture.british:552598

This idiot McVay runs a small subsidiary of the Holocaust Industry, known
as Nizkor.
It has no means of making money that I know of, and so depends entirely on
contributions
>from B'nai Brith Canada.  One of their efforts is "exposing" those who
differ with the Holocaust Orthodoxy, which is sought to be made illegal to
argue with, and has so been made illegal
in Germany and France, and I believe in some other countries.  He is a real
piece of work.
I often disagree with Matt Giwer, but I find him rational and intelligent.
This is more than
I can say for McVay, for whom I have developed a fine contempt.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3A9F2C33.443FFBF5@tampabay.rr.com>,
> Matt Giwer   wrote:
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
>
>      "Denial of Science & The Science of Denial"
>           The Techniques of Holocaust Denial
>   http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:51 EST 2001
Article: 870161 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3A9F2C33.443FFBF5@tampabay.rr.com> <97nj76$2nui$1@news.tht.net> <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net> <97ouue$3ri$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 109
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:05:54 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983570636 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:03:56 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:03:56 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174757 soc.culture.israel:327843 soc.culture.usa:603385 alt.revisionism:870161 soc.culture.canada:258870 soc.culture.british:552625

Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
But Oh well.
Comments interspersed.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >This idiot McVay runs a small subsidiary of the Holocaust Industry, known
> >as Nizkor.
> >It has no means of making money that I know of, and so depends entirely on
> >contributions
> >from B'nai Brith Canada.  One of their efforts is "exposing" those who
>
> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).
> B'nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor's behalf. If the
> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
>

You want disburse not disberse.  B'nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
contribute to it.  There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
to see it.  If B'nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
funds.
Period.
RLA

> >differ with the Holocaust Orthodoxy, which is sought to be made illegal to
> >argue with, and has so been made illegal
>
> The last time you defined this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander,
> you embarrassed yourself. Perhaps you would like to do so once again,
> and define it for your new readers.
>

Perhaps you would like to put up this alleged definition and explain what about
it is embarrassing to me.
RLA

>
> You might also reiterate your belief that 50% of American Jews are
> liars.. I'm sure folks would find that strange assertion of interest.
>

I might say that for the first time, but since I do not believe it, I will leave
it to you
to put up the alleged quote.
RLA

>
> >in Germany and France, and I believe in some other countries.  He is a real
> >piece of work.
> >I often disagree with Matt Giwer, but I find him rational and intelligent.
> >This is more than
> >I can say for McVay, for whom I have developed a fine contempt.
>
> Please do redefine this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander. I expect
> it will prove as embarrassing for you this time as it did the last.
>

Please put 'er up and we'll discuss her.  I look forward to it like a visit to
the dentist,
or to the surgeon, but I am game.
RLA

>
> Giwer?
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
> IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany
>     and America's Most Powerful Corporation, by Edwin Black
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609607995/thenizkorproject/
>              The Nizkor Project: http://www.nizkor.org



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:51 EST 2001
Article: 870174 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net> <97ouue$3ri$1@news.tht.net> <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net> <97p8sj$60i$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 150
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:03:12 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983577672 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:01:12 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:01:12 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174771 soc.culture.israel:327857 soc.culture.usa:603454 alt.revisionism:870174 soc.culture.canada:258879 soc.culture.british:552667



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
> >I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
>
> On the other hand, you don't mind saying that 50% of American Jews are
> liars... interesting.
>
> >> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).

I was wrong the other day about the crazy group torturing a Palestinian.
When I am wrong I generally admit it.  Other than that, I would be in your debt
to show me the error of my ways.  I would bet you have no examples
(that you can document).
RLA

>
> >> B'nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> >> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor's behalf. If the
> >> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
> >>
> >
> >You want disburse not disberse.  B'nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
> >contribute to it.  There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
> >to see it.  If B'nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
> >funds.
>
> The point, Mr. Alexander, is that B'nai Brith does not provide my
> funding. I am not in the least surprised that you do not understand,
> but that's your problem, not mine. You made the false claim that
> Nizkor was funding by B'nai Brith, and I called you on it.
>

The point is that from your own statements, your money comes through B;nai
Brith.  I said, and I stand by it, if B'nai Brith didn't want you doing what you
do so well in your little corner of the Holocaust Industry, you would be out
tomorrow.
RLA

> Live with it, Bubba.

I notice that Mr. McVay cannot back up his assertions.  Indeed he can't deal with
any
point I raised.  One more time he defames me by asserting that I had
claimed that: "that 50% of American Jews are
liars... interesting."  /see above.  I had requested him to provide substantiation.
He didn't.  For the record, I do not believe Jews as a group are liars,
no substantial portion of them, certainly not half.  Now the Zionists on this
board are another matter.  These people lie for pastime, and propagate the
current party line as fervently as any Communist ever did their line.
I reproduce below the whol post that he has snipped.  the reader can see that
he has failed to take up the gauntlet, contenting himself iwth repeating
his defamatory falsehoods, and ending by calling me "Bubba",
which in the south means a good ol' boy, generally one of limited intelligence
though of good heart.  I understand it means an old woman in another
idiom.  In either case it is derogatory.   All I say is is that he can't debate.
I have come to despise him.
BTW, he didn't put up the allegedly wrong and embarrassing definition
of the Holocaust I supposedly put up either.  Maybe he will find
something, may be won't.  I bet he doesn't.  He is rather windy.
RLA




Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
But Oh well.
Comments interspersed.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >This idiot McVay runs a small subsidiary of the Holocaust Industry, known
> >as Nizkor.
> >It has no means of making money that I know of, and so depends entirely on
> >contributions
> >from B'nai Brith Canada.  One of their efforts is "exposing" those who
>
> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).
> B'nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor's behalf. If the
> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
>

You want disburse not disberse.  B'nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
contribute to it.  There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
to see it.  If B'nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
funds.
Period.
RLA

> >differ with the Holocaust Orthodoxy, which is sought to be made illegal to
> >argue with, and has so been made illegal
>
> The last time you defined this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander,
> you embarrassed yourself. Perhaps you would like to do so once again,
> and define it for your new readers.
>

Perhaps you would like to put up this alleged definition and explain what about
it is embarrassing to me.
RLA

>
> You might also reiterate your belief that 50% of American Jews are
> liars.. I'm sure folks would find that strange assertion of interest.
>

I might say that for the first time, but since I do not believe it, I will leave
it to you
to put up the alleged quote.
RLA

>
> >in Germany and France, and I believe in some other countries.  He is a real
> >piece of work.
> >I often disagree with Matt Giwer, but I find him rational and intelligent.
> >This is more than
> >I can say for McVay, for whom I have developed a fine contempt.
>
> Please do redefine this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander. I expect
> it will prove as embarrassing for you this time as it did the last.
>

Please put 'er up and we'll discuss her.  I look forward to it like a visit to
the dentist,
or to the surgeon, but I am game.
RLA

>
> Giwer?
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:52 EST 2001
Article: 870231 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net> <97p8sj$60i$1@news.tht.net> <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net> <97pimj$7l0$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 72
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 20:13:47 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983585507 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:11:47 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:11:47 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174785 soc.culture.israel:327869 soc.culture.usa:603501 alt.revisionism:870231 soc.culture.canada:258886 soc.culture.british:552700



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> [I said]
>
> >> The point, Mr. Alexander, is that B'nai Brith does not provide my
> >> funding. I am not in the least surprised that you do not understand,
> >> but that's your problem, not mine. You made the false claim that
> >> Nizkor was funding by B'nai Brith, and I called you on it.
>
> >The point is that from your own statements, your money comes through B;nai
> >Brith.  I said, and I stand by it, if B'nai Brith didn't want you doing what you
> >do so well in your little corner of the Holocaust Industry, you would be out
> >tomorrow.
>
> Switching horses, Mr. Alexander? First you claimed that B'nai Brith
> Canada "funded" Nizkor. That, as I pointed out, is not true. Now you
> appear to be shifting ground.
>
> Why is that, Mr. Alexander? Is it that you are hoping no one will
> notice?
>
> You made a false claim. You were called on it. Live with it.
>

I said that Jews gave money to B'nai Brith.  They exist on it.  Some of
that money they give to you.  If they decide they don't want you to
continue with your crazy project, they will stop the funding.
That looks to me like control.  You assert that some of the money
they collect is earmarked for your project.  That may be true,
but I would guess that much of that is guided by B'nai Brith.
Since they aren't going to open their books, I can't do more.
RLA

>
> By the way, Mr. Alexander... The United Church (British Columbia) once
> processed my funding.. do you suppose there was a "Christian
> conspiracy" to maintain your "Holocaust Orthodoxy?"
>
> What _is_ this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander?  Is it
> "protected" by the United Church?
>
> How about the Roman Catholic foundation that supported my work in
> 1997-1998, Mr. Alexander? Were they part of a Zionist conspiracy too?
>
> It is to laugh.
>

The reader will notice that McVay does not here as he did not before
deal with the other issues that he raised, like my having said that
50 % of American Jews are liars.  I never said any such rubbish.
Notice that he snips everything else, when I had laboriously gone and gotten
my original reply, and challenge.  He is truly sucks. Of  course,
he is also lying.

On the issue of support by Christians, this is not unreasonable, given
their feelings about the holocaust.  I have the same feelings.  The notion
that any country could and would imprison and starve, and otherwise
kill an entire religious or whatever group is nauseous to me.  For many
years I couldn't look at a German person without thinking how could
a nation so intelligent go so crazy.  Now I look at the Israelis the same
way.
RLA





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:53 EST 2001
Article: 870491 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA12E6E.628C5301@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net> <97pimj$7l0$1@news.tht.net> <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net> <97pmb9$873$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 74
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 11:48:31 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news3.atl 983641579 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:46:19 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:46:19 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174817 soc.culture.israel:327915 soc.culture.usa:603745 alt.revisionism:870491 soc.culture.canada:258935 soc.culture.british:552811



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> Switching horses, Mr. Alexander? First you claimed that B'nai Brith
> >> Canada "funded" Nizkor. That, as I pointed out, is not true. Now you
> >> appear to be shifting ground.
> >>
> >> Why is that, Mr. Alexander? Is it that you are hoping no one will
> >> notice?
> >>
> >> You made a false claim. You were called on it. Live with it.
>
> >I said that Jews gave money to B'nai Brith.  They exist on it.  Some of
>
> No, Mr. Alexander. You said that Nizkor was funded by B'nai Brith
> Canada, and that is not true.
>
> >that money they give to you.  If they decide they don't want you to
> >continue with your crazy project, they will stop the funding.
>
> They cannot stop the funding, Mr. Alexander, although they could stop
> managing it for me. It would take perhaps 5 minutes to move the fund
> to another organization.
>
> >That looks to me like control.  You assert that some of the money
> >they collect is earmarked for your project.  That may be true,
>
> ALL of the money that goes to the Nizkor fund GOES to the Nizkor fund,
> Mr. Alexander. B'nai Brith has no control over that. Whether you
> believe it or not is of no interest to me. After all, your reputation
> as a Jew-baiter and antisemite precedes you.
>

You are a smear artist, par excellence.  I am neither a Jewbaiter nor
an anitsemite.  I oppose Zionist oppression of Palestinians, which
bothers you not at all.  You are like alot of Zionist sympathizers,
all of the ones I have dealt with in fact.  You equate antiZionism
with antisemitism.

> As to control, perhaps I should explain something to you - something
> many others have learned to their great disappointment. I cannot BE
> "controlled," and Nizkor isn't going anywhere, with or without
> organizational support.
>
> Live with it, pal. I'm the most ferociously independent sob you'll
> ever confront, and Nizkor's here to stay, period. Nizkor existed long
> before the Jewish community discovered it, and it will remain
> regardless of _who_ supports it or does not support it.
>
> >but I would guess that much of that is guided by B'nai Brith.
> >Since they aren't going to open their books, I can't do more.
>
> But they have opened their books, Mr. Alexander. The federal
> government has been through them with a fine toothed comb. That you
> aren't sufficiently informed is your problem, not mine.
>
> Do you still assert that half of America's Jews are liars, Mr.
> Alexander?
>

I notice once again that you as a consummate smear artist, have
not brought forth any evidence that I ever asserted that.  You
are not only a liar, but a defamer.  The Big Lie was a technique
of the Nazis.  You appear to have learnt it well.
RLA

> -



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:53 EST 2001
Article: 870493 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA130DD.4E612AB0@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In   
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net> <97p8sj$60i$1@news.tht.net> <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net> <97pimj$7l0$1@news.tht.net> <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 11:58:53 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983642201 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:56:41 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:56:41 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174820 soc.culture.israel:327919 soc.culture.usa:603756 alt.revisionism:870493 soc.culture.canada:258938 soc.culture.british:552813

No, jerk, they aren't.  The B;'nai Brith in the US is an evil
organization.
Their offshoot, the ADL, has carried on a campaign of intimidation,
defamation, and assorted other crimes and torts which is scary.
Many posts pointing this out have been put up here, and I am sure you
had an opportunity to see them.  If not, I can get some of them and
put them up for you.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> >
> > I said that Jews gave money to B'nai Brith.  They exist on it.
>
> Roger, one seldom succeeds in curing you
> of your chronic ignorance, but I'll give
> it the old college try.
>
> Bnai Brith is the Jewish version of
> the Knights of Columbus.
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:53 EST 2001
Article: 870494 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA1315B.A30B480@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In  
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <97p8sj$60i$1@news.tht.net> <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net> <1cWn6.3168$iu4.16402520@news2.tor.primus.ca> <97ptrm$9nr$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:00:59 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983642327 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:58:47 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:58:47 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174821 soc.culture.israel:327920 soc.culture.usa:603757 alt.revisionism:870494 soc.culture.canada:258939 soc.culture.british:552814



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> [Roger "I'm not an antisemite, I just hate Jews" Alexander wrote}
>
> >> point I raised.  One more time he defames me by asserting that I had
> >> claimed that: "that 50% of American Jews are
> >> liars... interesting."  /see above.  I had requested him to provide
> >substantiation.
> >> He didn't.  For the record, I do not believe Jews as a group are liars,
> >> no substantial portion of them, certainly not half.  Now the Zionists on
> >this
> > board are another matter.  These people lie for pastime, and propagate the
>
> Precisely, Mr. Alexander. I once asked you to tell me how many Jews
> YOU thought were "Zionists."
>
> You asserted that 50% of American Jews were Zionists.
>
> Ergo, by your own definition, 50% of American Jews are liars.
>
> Hoist by your own petard, eh, Mr. Alexander?
>
> You are such a transparent ass.

Fifty per cent of American Jews do not put forth lies like the ones seen
on this board.  RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:54 EST 2001
Article: 870516 of alt.revisionism
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA149AD.86C4A004@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net> <97pmb9$873$1@news.tht.net> <3AA12E6E.628C5301@bellsouth.net> <97rcmr$krr$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 64
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 13:44:45 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983648553 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:42:33 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:42:33 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174834 soc.culture.israel:327933 soc.culture.usa:603794 alt.revisionism:870516 soc.culture.canada:258949 soc.culture.british:552841

I realize that this idiot intends to rile me up.  He has succeeded,
I grant him that.  He continues to say I called half of American Jews liars.
I didn't.  Since lying doesn't bother him he continues to make the
assertion.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA12E6E.628C5301@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >You are a smear artist, par excellence.  I am neither a Jewbaiter nor
> >an anitsemite.  I oppose Zionist oppression of Palestinians, which
> >bothers you not at all.  You are like alot of Zionist sympathizers,
> >all of the ones I have dealt with in fact.  You equate antiZionism
> >with antisemitism.
>
> Of course you're an antisemite, Mr. Alexander... anyone who claims
> that half of American Jewry are liars fits that description rather
> well.
>
> >> As to control, perhaps I should explain something to you - something
> >> many others have learned to their great disappointment. I cannot BE
> >> "controlled," and Nizkor isn't going anywhere, with or without
> >> organizational support.
> >>
> >> Live with it, pal. I'm the most ferociously independent sob you'll
> >> ever confront, and Nizkor's here to stay, period. Nizkor existed long
> >> before the Jewish community discovered it, and it will remain
> >> regardless of _who_ supports it or does not support it.
> >>
> >> >but I would guess that much of that is guided by B'nai Brith.
> >> >Since they aren't going to open their books, I can't do more.
> >>
> >> But they have opened their books, Mr. Alexander. The federal
> >> government has been through them with a fine toothed comb. That you
> >> aren't sufficiently informed is your problem, not mine.
> >>
> >> Do you still assert that half of America's Jews are liars, Mr.
> >> Alexander?
> >>
>
> >I notice once again that you as a consummate smear artist, have
> >not brought forth any evidence that I ever asserted that.  You
> >are not only a liar, but a defamer.  The Big Lie was a technique
> >of the Nazis.  You appear to have learnt it well.
>
> You have said that Zionists are (among other things) liars.
> When I asked you how many Jews were Zionists, you said "at least 50%,
> at least in the United States," or something very similar.
>
> Ergo, the conclusion is inescapable: You have called half of America's
> Jews Zionists, and therefore liars.
>
> Not an antisemite, Mr. Alexander? Pull the other one.
>
> --
> "...I note that on the few occasions of which I am aware where purveyors of
> anti-Semitic propaganda have endeavoured to justify their materials in
> court on the facts and the merits, they have been singularly unsuccessful..."
>    (http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/scully-olga/reason.html)





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:40 EST 2001
Article: 531885 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA151ED.C22EE285@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Extremism in Israel Is Fueled by a Growing Ultra-Orthodox Movement in 
 the U.S. By Allan C. Brownfeld
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 377
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:19:59 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983650666 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:17:46 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:17:46 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174838 soc.culture.israel:327936 soc.culture.usa:603807 soc.culture.jewish:531885


http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101071.html

Washington Report pm Middle East Affairs

JANUARY/FEBRUARY 2001, Pages 71-72

Israel & Judaism

Extremism in Israel Is Fueled by a Growing Ultra-Orthodox Movement in
the U.S.

By Allan C. Brownfeld

In the years since the end of World War II, an ultra-Orthodox Jewish
community has seen dramatic growth in the U.S. and has been influential
in
fueling extremism and terrorism in Israel.

While fewer than 100,000 Orthodox European Jews entered the country
after
1945, their effects were profound. "Only the religious believers had a
clear and unshakable answer to the question of why be a Jew," Rabbi
Arthur
Hertzberg has written. These particular believers, according to
Hertzberg,
"asserted the most uncompromising, separatist version of the Jewish
religionŠFor the first time in modern American history, the secular
humanistic impulse of American JewryŠfaced the challenge of a vibrant,
charismatic and almost completely antithetical belief system with
institutions and folkways of its ownŠMost American Jews surely thought
they
had left all that behind in Europe decades earlier."

In his book Jew Vs. Jew, Samuel Freedman, a professor of journalism at
Columbia University, shows that the divisions among American Jews are
profound: "To say that American Jews differ on the issue-recent polls
find
about two-thirds favoring the land-for-peace formula-is to see only the
surface of a widening chasm. The poll numbers in many ways mask the
reality. Aside from an energetic and visible leadership, the Jews who
support the Oslo agreements are largely those disengaged from Israel in
all
but sentimental
ways. The opposition, resting disproportionately in the Orthodox
population,
is the segment of American Jewry most involved with Israel, most
committed to
it in concrete actions. This passionate minority has dominated the peace

issue, influencing events from the halls of Congress to the settlements
of
the West Bank, arguing on grounds of both security and Torah that Israel

must never surrender the lands won in 1967. And while the right wing of
American Jewry has expressed itself primarily through political
activity,
its fringe elements have repeatedly turned to inflammatory rhetoric and
violent acts both in the U.S. and Israel. Yigal Amir's trail to the
murder
of Yitzhak Rabin, it might be said, was one partly blazed by American
Jews."

"The lineage of American extremists led directly to Baruch Goldstein."

Some of the violence which has taken place in Israel has, in fact, been
perpetrated by Orthodox American Jewish émigrés. In 1980, a terrorist
band
known as the Jewish Underground, including an American émigré named Ezra

Rapaport, tried to assassinate three Arab mayors of West Bank towns with
car
bombs. Two years later, another American, Alan Goodman, opened fire on
Muslim worshippers at the Dome of the Rock, killing one Palestinian and
provoking rioting.

"The lineage of American extremists," writes Freedman, "led directly to
Kiryat Arba's doctor, a former New Yorker named Baruch Goldstein.
Goldstein
studied with Meir Kahane. He closely followed Alan Goodman's attack at
the
Dome of the Rock. And on Feb. 25, 1994 he enacted a more successful
version
of it, shooting to death 29 Muslim worshippers at a mosque in HebronŠAn
American Hasidic rabbi in the West Bank city of Nablus, Yitzhak
Ginsburg,
oversaw the publication of a memorial book glorifying Goldstein as 'the
Saint, may God avenge his blood.'
One of those who read it was Yigal Amir."

In American Orthodox Jewish circles there were a number of prominent
individuals who encouraged such extremism. A figure widely respected in
Orthodox circles, the Talmud scholar Herschel Schachter of Yeshiva
University,
asserted that Rabin hated God and Torah. Another Yeshiva professor, the
rabbi
and medical ethicist Moshe Tendler, delivered the eulogy at Meir
Kahane's
funeral.

Nor have right-wing pressure and terrorist acts been confined to Israel
and
Palestine. On the same morning of Goldstein's massacre in early 1994,
extremists placed bombs inside the Manhattan offices of two liberal
groups,
the New Israel Fund and Americans for Peace Now. When the Conference of
Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations scheduled a memorial
service for Rabin at Madison Square Garden in December 1995, they were
pressured by Oslo foes to ban any reference to the "peace process" in
the
event's program or speeches. Even at that, both the Zionist Organization
of
America and Agudath Israel of America boycotted the event.

The case of Baruch Goldstein highlights the connection between Jewish
extremism in the U.S. and Israel. Goldstein, a militant Zionist from New

York, had been a member of the Jewish Defense League (JDL), founded by
the
late Meir Kahane. Kahane urged his followers to emigrate to Israel and
called for the removal of all Arabs from the West Bank. After the
violent
mass murder at Hebron, Goldstein was viewed as a hero by many of the
Israeli settlers. At
his funeral, Rabbi Yaacov Perrin declared that, "One million Arabs are
not
worth a Jewish fingernail." Shmuel Hacohen, a teacher in a Jerusalem
college, said: "Baruch Goldstein was the greatest Jew alive, not in one
way
but in
every wayŠThere are no innocent Arabs hereŠHe was no crazyŠKilling isn't

nice, but sometimes it is necessary."

Kahane's Nuremburg Laws

Goldstein's hero, Meir Kahane, had moved to Israel in 1971 and was
popular
enough to win a seat in the Knesset under the banner of his Kach Party.
He
developed legislation for The Prevention of Assimilation Between Jews
and
Non-Jews and for the Sanctity of the Jewish People. It called, among
other
things, for separate beaches for Jews and non-Jews and for an end to
mixed
summer camps and community centers. His legislation, much like Nazi
Germany's Nuremburg Laws, declared that, "Jews are forbidden to marry
non-JewsŠmixed marriages will not be recognized in the countries in
which
they were heldŠ
Jews are forbidden to have sexual relations of any sort with non-JewsŠ"

In the U.S., the extremist Orthodox milieu can be seen through the story
of
Harry Shapiro, a socially awkward loner who grew up in a Conservative
Jewish family in Jacksonville, Florida. He ultimately became
ultra-Orthodox
and found an ideological home in right-wing Jewish politics. So intense
were his
feelings that he staged a phony bombing of a Jacksonville synagogue
where
Shimon Peres was to speak on behalf of the Oslo accords.

The forces which led to Shapiro's violent act are to be found throughout

Jewish institutions across the U.S. As a young man, Shapiro attended
Hebrew
high school classes and United Synagogue Youth meetings at the
Jacksonville
Jewish Center. Samuel Freedman reports that, "Rabbi Dov Kentof turned a
USY
campout into a simulated mission with the Israeli army, ending with
anthems
around the bonfire. Week after week in the classroom he narrated the
Jewish

epic of persecution and the resistance, from Masada and Bar Kochba
through
the Warsaw ghetto uprising and the Final Solution, covering one wall
with
photographs of Jewish corpses." Shapiro recalled years later that,
"These
were totally new reasons to be JewishŠThis was more about feelings and
emotions-being proud you're Jewish, not letting a Holocaust happen
again. It
affected my soul."

In March 1982, Shapiro's parents joined a two-week tour of Israel led by
David
Gaffney, rabbi of the Jacksonville Jewish Center. On the group's first
full
day in Israel, after the scheduled stops at Carmel Winery and Weizmann
Institute, Rabbi Gaffney persuaded the driver to head further south
along
the Mediterranean coast, through Gaza, into Sinai, and finally to the
Jewish town of Yamit, the center of resistance to the peace treaty with
Egypt.

The Camp David accords of 1979 had stipulated that Israel would withdraw

>from the Sinai Peninsula it had captured in 1967 as a condition for
Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's signing a separate peace. One of the
Israeli settlements in Sinai was Yamit, a community of 2,500. As many of

Yamit's residents ultimately departed, they were replaced by loyalists
of
Gush Emunim (Bloc of the Faithful, the radical settlers' movement), many
of
them transplanted Americans.

The Shapiros were emotionally moved by their visit. Later, they told
their
children about Yamit. Harry dwelled on a photograph of the war memorial,

proof of all he had learned in Rabbi Kentof's class about the price of
Jewish survival. In 1984, Harry Shapiro flew to Israel. He sought out
the
Gush Emunim faithful and from them he learned that Israel's victory in
the
1967 war was God's will, the Torah's words, that Jews were to abide in
all
of Eretz Israel.

When he returned to the U.S. and entered Yeshiva University, Shapiro
embraced
the philosophy of Meir Kahane. He faithfully read The Jewish Press, an
Orthodox paper published in Brooklyn. In an open letter to rabbis,
Avraham
Hecht, who led 2,000 congregants in Brooklyn as rabbi of Shaare Zion
synagogue and 540 colleagues as president of the Rabbinical Alliance of
America, declared: "The Torah permits the most extreme action against
those
who harm our fellow Jews."

Rabbi Hecht said that surrendering any of the Land of Israel violated
halakah
(Jewish law), and anyone who did so could be killed as a rodef, "one who

pursues a Jew trying to kill him." Asked by New York Magazine to clarify
what
sounded like a religious death threat, Hecht explained: "All I said was
that
according to Jewish law, any one person-you can apply it to whoever you
want-any one person who willfully, consciously, intentionally hands over

human bodies or human property or the human wealth of the Jewish people
to
an alien people is guilty of the sin for which the penalty is death. And

according to Maimonides-you can quote me-it says very clearly, if a man
kills him, he has done a good deed."


Completing a Circle

It was in this atmosphere that Harry Shapiro went about his life. "Rabbi

Hecht's theology," writes Samuel Freedman, "completed a circle for
Harry.
Years ago, Gush Emunim had taught that God granted Eretz Israel to the
Jews; then Meir Kahane demonstrated how one could hate Jewish leaders in

the name of loving the Jewish people; and now Harry understood the
penalty
for disobeying divine commandment, 'The Torah is our deed to the land,'
Harry put it. 'Who is man to give it back?'ŠNever able to join the
battle
against Arabs in Eretz Israel, Harry decided to carry it against a Jew
on
American ground."

Harry Shapiro admits his guilt. "I placed gunpowder in a pipe," he told
the
court. "I placed it in a house of worship. I threatened the life of a
human
being with it. I called 911 and issued a threat to keep Mr. Peres from
speaking." Shapiro now occupies a cell in a medium-security prison in
Jessup, Georgia. He appreciates the printouts his brother sends him from
a
Web site honoring Meir Kahane.

Early in the 20th century, the Orthodox in America gave every indication
of
withering to a vestige. As late as 1955, sociologist Marshall Sklare
dismissed the Orthodox experience in the U.S. as "a case study of
institutional decay." Now, we have witnessed an Orthodox renaissance.
With
less than 10 percent of the Jewish population, the Orthodox
disproportionately affect the larger community. Orthodox educators often

staff the day schools and Hebrew schools of the Conservative and Reform
movements. In 1956 10 prominent religious scholars issued an issur, a
prohibition against Orthodox participation in any joint rabbinical
organizations-a direct blow against such umbrella groups as the New York

Board of Rabbis and the Synagogue Council of America.In 1979, a
vigilante
group calling itself TORAH-Tough Orthodox Rabbis And
Hasidim-spray-painted swastikas and anti-Semitic slurs on the only
Conservative synagogue left in the ultra-Orthodox Brooklyn stronghold of

Borough Park. In 1984, the Agudath Harabonim ran advertisements just
before
the High Holy Days urging Jews "not to pray in a Reform or Conservative
TempleŠwhose clergy have long rebelled against numerous sacred laws of
the
Torah and mislead thousands of innocent souls."

The Halakhic instrument promoted by ultra-Orthodox rabbis, both in
Israel
and the U.S., that ultimately convinced Yigal Amir that he should kill
Yitzhak Rabin was the ancient Jewish doctrine of zealotry. The doctrine
maintains that under the most extreme circumstances, a God-loving Jew
can
kill another person without asking permission.

The doctrine of zealotry goes back to the first biblical Jewish
zealot-Pinchas
Ben-Eleazar. As told in the Bible, Pinchas, acting in awe of God, killed

Zimri, who had prostituted in public with a Midianite girl. Pinchas's
problem was that the killing was totally unauthorized and he acted out
of
an uncontrollable momentary drive. And yet, in spite of the severity of
the
act, which was denounced, according to the Talmud, by the people's
elders,
it was forgiven by God. The reason given was that Pinchas "was zealous
for
my sake among them." God instantly terminated a plague that had already
killed 20,000 Jews. Pinchas' entire line of ancestors were made priests
of
Israel. The prophet Elijah is also described in the Bible as a zealot
who
killed in his wrath 400 priests of Baal, a Canaanite god. Yigal Amir
convinced himself that in killing Rabin he was acting in the best
tradition
of Jewish zealotry.

For the ultra-Orthodox, both in Israel and the U.S., a form of
"messianic
Zionism," which makes control over the biblical Land of Israel a
religious
mandate, has been growing. In his book, Terror in the Mind of God: the
Global Rise of Religious Violence, Professor Mark Juergensmayer notes
that
Jewish activists "haveŠbeen convinced that their violent acts have been
authorized as weapons in a divine warfare sanctioned by God. Dr. Baruch
Goldstein's massacre at the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron in 1994 was

described as a military actŠOne of his supporters explained, 'It goes
back
to biblical times,' indicating that the present-day Arabs are simply the

modern descendants of the enemies of Israel described in the Bible for
whom
God has unleashed wars of revenge."

Thus far, the organized American Jewish community has done nothing to
isolate
the advocates of such violent extremism within its ranks. A vocal and
extreme
minority, sadly, has often been embraced in the name of an illusory
"Jewish
unity." Any "unity" purchased at such a price has within it the seeds of

long-term disintegration.

Allan C. Brownfeld is a syndicated columnist and associate editor of the
Lincoln
Review, a journal published by the Lincoln Institute for Research and
Education,
and editor of Issues, the quarterly journal of the American Council for
Judaism. 




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:40 EST 2001
Article: 531910 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA1C6F7.65EE5FE7@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.palestine,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: good compromise on right to return
References: <20010121223827.05774.00000489@ng-fr1.aol.com> 
	       
	      <94i1bl$t5b$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk> <3a6d1f0c$16$fuzhry$mr2ice@va.news.verio.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 45
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:39:19 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news3.atl 983680659 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 23:37:39 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 23:37:39 EST
Xref: hub.org soc.culture.israel:328006 soc.culture.jewish:531910 soc.culture.palestine:113126 talk.politics.mideast:174896

I like the stilted construction of this particular lie:

"Even were it true that Israel evicted it's Arabs (it's not)"

Of course it is true that Israel expelled (not evicted, for this
has overtones of right and there was no right) somewhat more than
half the Arabs of Palestine.  And even more true is that Israel
won't let them come back.  Blocking their return is illegal
under international law.  Mr. Metz spouts the official Zionist line,
which is full of such damned lies.
RLA

"Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz" wrote:

> In <94i1bl$t5b$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, on 01/22/2001
>    at 07:23 PM, "rehan" <[NOSPAM]@nospam.com> said:
>
> >who done what first? heh? only reason they got kicked out was bcos
> >u'se bastards did it first. they would be there first if it werent
> >for u'se wanks.
>
> Even were it true that Israel evicted it's Arabs (it's not), that
> would still not have anything to do with the blatantly antisemitic
> actions of your brethern; the Jews that you expelled were not citizens
> of Israel until you forced them to move there.
>
> Too many people plonk you, so you had to change your address? Back
> into the filters. *PLONK*
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>      Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz, SysProg and JOAT
>      Atid/2
>      Team OS/2
>      Team PL/I
>
> Any unsolicited commercial junk E-mail will be subject to legal
> action.  I reserve the right to publicly post or ridicule any
> abusive E-mail.
>
> I mangled my E-mail address to foil automated spammers; reply to
> domain acm dot org user shmuel to contact me.  Do not reply to
> spamtrap@library.lspace.org
> -----------------------------------------------------------



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:41 EST 2001
Article: 531973 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA251AD.CA54F8F4@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Rabbis Must Speak Out | Lloyd Flaum
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 48
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 08:31:09 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news1.atl 983716159 208.61.184.216 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:29:19 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:29:19 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174926 soc.culture.israel:328047 soc.culture.jewish:531973 soc.culture.usa:604120


Rabbis Must Speak Out | Lloyd Flaum

Letters | The Atlanta Journal-Constitution | October 10, 2000.

I am sick of the fighting in Israel. How many more will die in the name
of
religion or a piece of land that can't be shared with all people who
find
their religions centered in this part of the world?

As a Jew, I call on all religious leaders to speak out against the
killing.
How many sermons on Yom Kippur were wasted on Zionism, inter-faith
marriages, giving money to the synagogue and the other typical concerns
of
the rabbis? Now is the time to speak out against the killing of all
people
in the name of religion and land.

Peace now! Speak out in synagogue and in church. We all have something
vested
in peace in the Middle East. Jews must stop the fighting, killing and
maiming. As Prime Minister Ehud Barak flexes his military might, how
many
Atlanta Jews are sickened by his militaristic threats against the
Palestinians? How many rabbis will attempt to raise the consciousness of

Jews that the fighting can stop with Barak urging peace instead of
threatening further military action against the Palestinians?

Let me know because I won't be attending synagogues this year. I am sick
of
American Jewish leaders encouraging the violence to continue instead of
speaking out against it.

Lloyd Flaum, Marietta, GA

People posting on SCJ assert that posts there about Israel are off
topic,
yet all the major Jewish organizations ardently support Israel, and the
President of the Conference ... is Ronald Lauder, an extreme right wing
Zionist.  There is a certain schizophrenia here, wanting to support
Israel
yet not being held to account for the crimes Israel commits.
Sort of a wanting to have one's cake and eat it too.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:41 EST 2001
Article: 531974 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA2577C.53A6AAE6@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Now I Am Ashamed | Sarah Shartal
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 58
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 08:55:56 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news1.atl 983717646 208.61.184.216 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:54:06 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:54:06 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174928 soc.culture.israel:328050 soc.culture.jewish:531974 soc.culture.usa:604127

Now I Am Ashamed | Sarah Shartal

Letters | The Toronto Star, October 18, 2000.

As an Israeli born before the occupation, I have watched as my people
became
the overseers of cheap dependent workers, and we became richer off their

labor. We expropriated their land and resources and we limit their
economy.

Now we have inflicted the most violent attacks against them that I have
seen in my lifetime.

Also frightening is how Jewish Israelis are attacking Arab Israelis.
Mosques,
homes and businesses owned by Arab Israeli citizens have been attacked,
looted
and burned, while Jewish Israeli citizens shout, "Death to the Arabs."
To
date, our government has not protected its Arab citizens. When Jews from

Nazareth Elite (a town near Nazareth) invaded Nazareth and started to
loot
local stores, local citizens came out to try to stop them. The army came
in
and shot the Arab victims of the attack, killing two of them.

Inside our country we have always divided our citizens by race. It's
written into our identity cards.

Jewish Israelis have more legal rights than Arab Israelis with respect
to
where they can live and work. Although we're taxed equally, we spend
more
on Jewish schoolchildren than on Arab children. In Jewish towns and
cities,
we built better housing, better roads, better community centers and
better
social services.

I grew up loving my country and now I am ashamed.

I remember reading something Thoreau wrote when slaves were still owned
in
the United States. He wrote, "You may not have a responsibility to free
your fellow man but you have a responsibility to get off his back." At a

minimum we and our country should get off the backs of the Palestinians.

The West Bank and Gaza Strip are their lands.

Inside our country, if we are to survive with any humanity we must
protect
all of our country regardless of religion, race or opinions.

Sarah Shartal, Toronto, Canada



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:41 EST 2001
Article: 531975 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA257F8.5E493A3A@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: The Saddest Sentence | Brad Rubin
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 46
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 08:58:00 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news1.atl 983717769 208.61.184.216 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:56:09 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:56:09 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174929 soc.culture.israel:328051 soc.culture.jewish:531975 soc.culture.usa:604128

The Saddest Sentence | Brad Rubin

Letters | The Washington Post | October 18, 2000.

An Oct. 13 news story about a pro-Israel rally in New York referred to a

sign held by a protester that read, "Don't Throw Rocks and You Won't Get

Killed." This is perhaps the saddest single sentence I have read yet. As
a
faithful and observant Jew, I am told by the organizations that
supposedly
represent me-with the spin summarized in that sign-that I must be
entirely
pro-Israeli in my reactions to the recent violence.

As someone who believes in God and the principles of my religion, I
cannot
accept this sign, these statements, this representation. How offensive
that
I must be told that I must believe the Sixth Commandment has conditions,

that all people were not created in God's image and that I should be
complicitous in the violation of all I have learned in synagogue because
it
will damage Israel's political position.

Israel and the American Jewish community have demanded that Yasser
Arafat
and the Palestinian people disclaim the murders of the two soldiers
killed
before the world's eyes. Although they should be justified in making
this
demand, how have they disclaimed the killing of 100 Palestinians, other
than by insinuating that they do not have the same value as Israeli
soldiers? How can Mr. Arafat order his people to stop protesting when we

proclaim our pride in our ability to kill them? And when will Israel,
the
American Jewish community and the media demand actual allegiance to the
principles, ethics and values of the religions that have supposedly
created
this conflict?

Brad Rubin, Washington, DC



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:42 EST 2001
Article: 531976 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA259A1.D89F518F@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: No More Knee Jerk Solidarity | Alan Schechner
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 111
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:05:05 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983718195 208.61.184.216 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:03:15 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:03:15 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174930 soc.culture.israel:328052 soc.culture.jewish:531976 soc.culture.usa:604132

No More Knee Jerk Solidarity | Alan Schechner

Letters | The Savannah Morning News | November 9, 2000.

Although I did not attend the Solidarity with Israel rally on Oct. 13,
I,
like many at the rally, was brought up and educated to love and defend
Israel. Like many, I, too, am in pain at recent developments in Israel
and
the occupied territories.

My Zionist education culminated in my moving to Israel at age 18. During

the eight years I spent living in the country, I lived on kibbutzim,
both
religious
and secular. I volunteered and served in the army, seeing active duty
both
in Lebanon and in the occupied territories.

I lived on a Jewish settlement in the occupied territories and finally
worked for two years on Arab-Jewish relations, which included one year
living in an Israeli Arab village. As I write this, my parents and two
sisters still live in Israel.

It therefore pains me to say this but it is my opinion, based on my
experiences,
that Israel is a deeply racist and unjust society and that Zionism, at
least in its current form, degrades and demeans much of what is
beautiful
in Jewish culture.

My time in the army included the ongoing humiliation and oppression of
the
Palestinian population of the occupied territories. This was achieved by
an
endless list of roadblocks, document checks, public humiliations,
curfews and
violent suppressions of free speech.

One particularly painful memory for me is the night when I, together
with
my unit, was ordered to break into the houses of elderly Palestinians,
overturn their belongings, desecrate their peace and peace of mind for
no
other reason than to let them know who was boss.

As part of an invading force in Lebanon, I saw firsthand the evils of
collective
punishment. I saw whole communities destroyed because of the action of
one
individual. I saw a beautiful country destroyed by the megalomaniac
desires of
Ariel Sharon, whose already bloodstained hands are visible again in
these
latest troubles.

Living on a West Bank settlement I was appalled to learn that Saturday
night
activities there often consisted of breaking windows, overturning
vehicles and
generally causing havoc in the local Arab village. This unfortunately is

the reality of Israel- not the dreams of an enlightened Jewish homeland
that I was sold at my Zionist Youth Group and Jewish community.

In an attempt to work against these negative forces, in an attempt to
construct the Israel of my dreams, I worked for two years as a community

worker in
Arab-Jewish relations within Israel. That experience, though not as
horrific as
what had gone on before, again pointed to a deeply discriminatory
society.

Arab Israelis, taxpayers, voters were living in conditions far below
those
of Jewish citizens. Many villages lacked basic amenities. There were
open
sewers running through the streets, schools were overcrowded with few
facilities and fewer books. The list goes on and on and on.

So while I understand the longing of the Jewish community to show
solidarity with Israel, and I understand its need to help in some way, I

cannot help but balk at the statements of Israeli Vice Consul Ilan
Segev,
when he says that "Israel just wants peace," or of Moise Paz, when he
insinuates that helicopter gunships and live ammunition are an apt
response
to a crowd of teenage stone-throwers.

Yes, we must show solidarity, but not with forces and ideologies that
perpetuate and encourage violence and discrimination. Instead of this
knee
jerk solidarity, let us search out and support those groups and
institutions, both Arab and Jewish, that are working for a fair and
equitable solution to the problems in Israel.

Let us support those groups that wish to put an end to over 30 years of
brutal
Israeli occupation, and let us support the human rights of all the
citizens
of this region.

If the local Jewish community, as your headline states, wants the
violence
to end in Israel, these are the steps that we must take.

Alan Schechner, Savannah, GA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:42 EST 2001
Article: 531981 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA25FA3.B1923601@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Useful websites for information and contacts
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 52
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 09:30:43 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news3.atl 983719732 208.61.184.216 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:28:52 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:28:52 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174936 soc.culture.usa:604149 soc.culture.jewish:531981

>From Dr. Bill Friend:

Here are some useful websites for information and contacts.

Palestine Diary  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PalestineDiary
Alternative Information Center
www.oneworld.org/euconflict/guides/orgs/meast/431.htm
CHALLENGE Magazine (Roni Ben-Efrat) www.odaction.org/challenge/
Critical-Jews-Worldwide  www.mindspring.com/~oznik/index.html
Elias Daviddson (The Dark Web pages of Zionism)
www.juscogens.org/engl.html
DIR YASSIN - Israeli Punk Band (check out their song lyrics)
www.angelfire.com/il/deiryassin/index.html
Jewish People's Liberation Organization (Canada)
www.cam.org/~suulaha/jploolpj/decl-eng.htm
Jews Against The Occupation-NYC www.angelcities.com/members/jato/
Jews For Justice  www.cactus48.com/tmth.html
Jews For Racial and Economic Justice www.jfrej.org/
Neturei Karta (The Guardians of the City - anti-Zionist Chasidic
Organization) www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/5750/home.html
Noam Chomsky  www.lbbs.org/ZNETTOPnoanimation.html
Norman Finkelstein www.normanfinkelstein.com
SEARCH (Ned Hanauer) www.searchforjustice.org/main.html
Jewish Peace Fellowship www.jewishpeacefellowship.org/index.htm
The Coalition for Justice in Hawaiian Gardens & Jerusalem [ Rabbi Haim
Dov
Beliak](Originally StopMoskowitz - i.e, Dr. Irving Moskowitz, Bingo King
and
major donor to illegal settlements)
www.stopmoskowitz.com/index.html
The Ethical Spectacle (monthly, frequent essays on M.E. conflict)
www.spectacle.org
The Other Israel http://members.tripod.com/~other_Israel/index.html
Torah True Jews Against Zionism  www.jewsnotzionists.org
Bat Shalom-Feminist Center for Peace in the M.E. (Gila Svirsky)
www.batshalom.org
The Traubman Family Jewish-Palestinian Living Room Dialogue Group in
California
www.igc.org/traubman/dg-prog.htm
Middle East Crisis Committee (Stanley Heller) www.thestruggle.org
The American Council for Judaism (oldest continuous secular Jewish
anti-Zionist organization, started 1941 by Rabbi Louis Wolsey, exec.
dir.
for 30 years - Rabbi Elmer Berger.  Activists included Alfred M.
Lilienthal
(The Zionist Connection), Moshe Menuhin, father of Yehudi Menuhin;
Lessing
Rosenwald and others.)   www.acjna.org
Gush Shalom  www.gush-shalom.org





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:42 EST 2001
Article: 531989 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA26BC8.20AE13ED@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: APPALLING EQUATION : Gideon Levy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 78
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:22:32 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983722855 208.61.184.216 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 11:20:55 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 11:20:55 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174942 soc.culture.israel:328060 soc.culture.jewish:531989 soc.culture.usa:604174

APPALLING EQUATION

In an op ed published in the Israeli paper Ha’aretz this morning, Gideon
Levy pointed out the grave situation in the occupied Palestinian
territories threatening to push the area into a devastating war.

According the Levy, "It has been a long time - since their calamity in
1948 - that the Palestinians have endured such a hard Feast of the
Sacrifice. Just an hour's drive from Jerusalem, a cruel drama has been
under way for the past five months the likes of which have not been seen
since the early period of the Israeli occupation, but the majority of
Israelis are taking absolutely no interest in it. The iron grip of the
closure in its new format is increasingly strangling a population of 2.8
million people, yet no one is saying a word, not around the cabinet
table of the outgoing government - the peace government - not among
those who are going to serve in the new government, and not in the
opposition of the Zionist left."


Levy went on to state, "It has to be said starkly and simply: There has
never been a closure like this there, in the land of the barriers and
the closures."


"No one enters and no one leaves, not those who are pregnant and not
those who are dying. There isn't even a soldier with whom one can plead
and beg. The village, the refugee camp or the town are besieged and
their residents are imprisoned. A schoolchild cannot get safely to his
school, or a student to her college, or an adult to his work…"

"This mass jailing of an entire people, with its monstrously inhumane
dimension, entails also a mortal economic blow. According to data of the
United Nations envoy Terje Roed-Larsen, the credibility of which there
is no reason to doubt, the Palestinians are losing $6.8 million a day
because of the present closure, and to date their losses total more than
a billion dollars. For an economy that was shaky to begin with, that is
a deathblow. A quarter of a million unemployed, a million people living
beneath the Palestinian poverty line - $2.10 a day - and a 50 percent
decline in the gross national product: These are nightmarish statistics
not only for the Palestinians but for the Israelis as well…"


"Their hardship will be transformed into more and more terrorist
attacks. This is the point: the horrific distress of the Palestinians
because of the present closure will quickly turn into the distress of
the Israelis. If their Feast of the Sacrifice looks the way it does,
then our Purim will not bring with it much happiness either. Simple as
it is, no one is taking into account the gravity of this appalling
equation…"


"The present closure is totally unrelated to security considerations.
Anyone who doubts this is invited to go to the barriers and roadblocks
and see thousands of pedestrians and vehicles managing, despite
everything, to sneak into Israel under the nose of the soldiers. Those
who are willing to take the risk of doing this in order to work will
certainly also do it in order to perpetrate a terrorist attack. The true
purpose of the closure is to please the frightened settlers and perhaps
also, the suspicion arises, to destroy the Palestinian Authority, for
reasons, which are difficult to comprehend.

"The current siege, a shamefully appalling operation, must be lifted
quickly. This must not be made conditional on the cessation of the
violence, because the siege itself is the most effective spur of
violence…"


Levy concluded by stating, "There is no measure that the prime
minister-elect, Ariel Sharon, can take that would contribute more to
effecting a dramatic change in the situation than to remove, immediately
and unconditionally, the trenches and the earth ramparts from the
already difficult life of the Palestinians…"

The full article is available on the Internet at:
http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/htmls/kat9_4.htm





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:43 EST 2001
Article: 532060 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA2F013.11AD467B@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: APPALLING EQUATION : Gideon Levy
References: <3AA26BC8.20AE13ED@bellsouth.net> <3aa2a751.886394@news.gulfstream.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 19:46:59 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news1.atl 983756720 208.63.204.214 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:45:20 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:45:20 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174993 soc.culture.israel:328111 soc.culture.jewish:532060 soc.culture.usa:604361



Red Herring wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:22:32 -0600, Roger Alexander
>  wrote:
>
> >"The present closure is totally unrelated to security considerations.
> >Anyone who doubts this is invited to go to the barriers and roadblocks
> >and see thousands of pedestrians and vehicles managing, despite
> >everything, to sneak into Israel under the nose of the soldiers.
>
> Some closure, huh?
>
> The Pallies have no right to enter Israel.   Those who manage to sneak past
> Israeli checkpoints ought to be apprehended, tried and given stiff
> sentences.
>
> Let the murderous bastards develop their own economy, or starve to death.
>

And just how do you suppose they are going to develop an economy when they
have no access to any border, and no acces to one another, while the murderous
bastards who jail them for no reason other than that they won't give up to the
bastards willingly while they breathe, keep them penned up.  YOu are a real
piece of work, whoever you are, you anonymous coward.
RLA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:43 EST 2001
Article: 532063 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA2F7FC.1C3640DF@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Extremism in Israel Is Fueled by a Growing Ultra-Orthodox Movement 
 in the U.S. By Allan C. Brownfeld
References: <3AA151ED.C22EE285@bellsouth.net> <9jjo6.880$9o5.95599@news.goodnet.com>  <040320011551416348%albert@nethere.com> <3aa2d9cc.31039115@news.rcn.com> <97uqsr$8c4$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 60
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:20:44 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news1.atl 983758745 208.63.204.214 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:19:05 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:19:05 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174997 soc.culture.israel:328115 soc.culture.usa:604375 soc.culture.jewish:532063

Thanks Barry.
    I cannot respond directly to your remark.  I don't think of religions per
se to like or dislike.
I was born and brought up in the Methodist sect of Christianity, an offshoot of
the Church
of England, itself an offshoot of the catholic Church.  I do look upon cults
and cult like entities
in the same way as one looks at rabid dogs.  Scientology, ofr example, has done
incalculable
harm to a multitude of people, probably because the people running that crazy
cult are so
greedy.  And, of course, they have no care for the people harmed.  In a lesser
way, MLM
marketers are sort of like them, knowing that the people they draft into their
schemes have
no chance of getting rich, but knowing that they, the originators, will make
money anyway.
Again, I think the owners of businesses like Amway (for example, I have no
intention of singling
it out) do not care for the wellbeing of the people they inveigle into
investing their time and
money into the business.
    I look at Zionism much the same way.  The original Zionists were AShkenazi
Jews who
came to Palestine with the avowed purpose of throwing the Palestinians out.
They have damn
near accomplished that, and they are busy every day killing and maiming the
Palestinians who
resist the final solution.  But even among their own the Ashkenazi are the
owners of the Zionist
business.  They treat the Sephardim as second class citizens, and of course,
the Druze worse,
and Arab Israelis worst.  Witness, for example, the killing of thirteen Arab
Israelis in the most
carefree way last October.
    I know this isn't quite responsive to your post, but it's the best I can
do.
RLA

Barry Bowser wrote:

> I happen to think Ultra Orthodoxy is important.  Even though I am not ultra
> orthodox, when I ripped out the new testament completely off of the bible
> and kept the o.t., my intestines felt much better.
> I used to think of myself as freind to all the religions, now I am not so
> sure.  I still am a freind of Jesus/Yeshua but I am not so impressed with
> his followers.  I am enemy of any religion that is enemy to the Yehudi.
>
> "David Goldman"  wrote in message
> news:3aa2d9cc.31039115@news.rcn.com...
> > >You are so fullof shit it comes out of your nose, idiot! What the
> > >majority of Israel is opposed to is control by religious fanatics who
> > >would like nothing better than reduce personal freedom, take over the
> > >rendering of justice; at the same times those parasites who do not
> > >work, collect welfare, do not serve in the military while the country
> > >is at war.
> >
> > Nero fiddles as Rome burns.............The Zionist idol is just about
> > at its end........



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:43 EST 2001
Article: 532137 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA3B995.C01CC598@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: APPALLING EQUATION : Gideon Levy
References: <3AA26BC8.20AE13ED@bellsouth.net> <3aa2a751.886394@news.gulfstream.org> <3AA2F573.DC1A0A10@tampabay.rr.com> <97v1po$1bc1$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 52
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:06:45 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news3.atl 983808295 208.63.204.214 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:04:55 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:04:55 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175052 soc.culture.israel:328190 soc.culture.jewish:532137 soc.culture.usa:604580

And Mr. McVay is a spammer.  He repeats his previous posts without mercy
on the poor readers of the NG.  He lied about me, and instead of showing
proof, he made up a new lie and said it justified the first.  The first lie he
repeated
half a dozen times.  I finally got tired of confronting him.  He obviously has
no morals, as one might expect of a Zionist sympathizer.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA2F573.DC1A0A10@tampabay.rr.com>,
> Matt Giwer   wrote:
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
> "...I note that on the few occasions of which I am aware where purveyors of
> anti-Semitic propaganda have endeavoured to justify their materials in
> court on the facts and the merits, they have been singularly unsuccessful..."
>    (http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/scully-olga/reason.html)



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:44 EST 2001
Article: 532193 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA445FA.694A83DA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,israel.lists.il-talk,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.culture.arab-league
Subject: Re: It is not Jewish property: GIVE THE PALESTINIANS BACK THEIR HOMES!!!
References: <340f6f6e.1200310@news.erols.com> <3aa27cb1.11661744@news.rcn.com>  <3AA3E250.4766B1A5@tampabay.rr.com> <9811ss$1pdq$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 50
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:05:46 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news3.atl 983844227 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:03:47 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:03:47 EST
Xref: hub.org soc.culture.arabic:63098 soc.culture.palestine:113256 israel.lists.il-talk:5559 talk.politics.mideast:175107 soc.culture.jewish:532193 alt.culture.arab-league:5008

Mr. McVay is a paid propagandist for the Zionists.  He makes no secret of
this
but has claimed in the past that his efforts are directed only to the
Holocaust.
He is now going the whole hog, taking the Zionist part in matters to do
only with
Israel and Palestine.  I thought he might.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
> The Nizkor Project  -  An electronic Holocaust educational resource
> David Irving,  Holocaust denial, and his connections to  Right-Wing
>              Extremists and Neo-Nazism in Germany:
>        http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/people/f/funke-hajo/



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:45 EST 2001
Article: 532194 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA44672.13AB9677@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: The Saddest Sentence | Brad Rubin
References: <3AA257F8.5E493A3A@bellsouth.net> <97uccg$6sl$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <97umiu$ogm$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> <97v7lf$eg4$3@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <97vm7e$7a4$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 25
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:07:46 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news3.atl 983844349 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:05:49 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:05:49 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175108 soc.culture.israel:328245 soc.culture.jewish:532194 soc.culture.usa:604843



Adam Littman wrote:

> In article <97vm7e$7a4$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au>, "Tom H."  wrote:
> >> No. If the "littler" (What is the criterion for being "littler" in
> >> this instance?) kids are throwing rocks on the other hand...
> >
> >So you're saying that if little kids throw rocks it's ok to launch rockets
> >at them?
>
> When a mob attacks, whether with rocks and guns and bombs, as the Palestinians
> do, or with their bare hands, they become a threat to the lives and property
> of the people they are attacking.
>
> Talking about an "unarmed" mob makes about as much sense as talking about an
> "unarmed" rogue elephant. A mob is inherently dangerous, weapons increase the
> danger but they are not the cause of it.

It is sick to see a rabid Zionist claim that the Palestinians are a
"threat to lives and property"  when the Property they are on
is their own and the intruders are killing them.  Nauseous in fact.
Mr. Littman is a thoroughly indoctrinated prig of a Zionist.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:45 EST 2001
Article: 532195 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA44700.4C8BC88F@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: The Saddest Sentence | Brad Rubin
References: <3AA257F8.5E493A3A@bellsouth.net> <97uccg$6sl$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <97umiu$ogm$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> <97v7lf$eg4$3@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <97vm7e$7a4$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 14
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:10:08 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news3.atl 983844488 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:08:08 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:08:08 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175109 soc.culture.israel:328246 soc.culture.jewish:532195 soc.culture.usa:604844

Israel does it all the time. On one of the boards I subscribe to
there was a sickening picture of a Palestinian boy whose head had been cleaved

by a large projectile.
RLA

"Tom H." wrote:

> > No. If the "littler" (What is the criterion for being "littler" in
> > this instance?) kids are throwing rocks on the other hand...
>
> So you're saying that if little kids throw rocks it's ok to launch rockets
> at them?



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:45 EST 2001
Article: 532196 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA449C3.EFA516D9@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,israel.lists.il-talk,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.culture.arab-league
Subject: Re: Blame Palestinians to justify greed and avarice: GIVE THE 
 PALESTINIANS BACK THEIR HOMES!!!
References: <340f6f6e.1200310@news.erols.com> <3410F277.40F3@cc.huji.ac.il> <3412c360.3971293@news.erols.com> <3aa25c49.3364751@news.rcn.com> <0yuo6.85$L67.3893@news1.atl> <3aa27cb1.11661744@news.rcn.com>  <3aa39749.10322919@news.rcn.com>  <3AA3CFC5.BCE8670C@his.com> <3AA3E37D.6ACC0DE8@tampabay.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 99
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:21:55 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983845195 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:19:55 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:19:55 EST
Xref: hub.org soc.culture.arabic:63099 soc.culture.palestine:113257 israel.lists.il-talk:5560 talk.politics.mideast:175111 soc.culture.jewish:532196 alt.culture.arab-league:5009

Dr. Bill Friend, an anti Zionist Jew, says: "it is very simple, you stole their land,
they want it back."
I generally agree except that you didn't steal their land, you robbed it from them at
gun point,
and killed those who resisted you.  You are truly monsters on the face of the earth.
RLA

Matt Giwer wrote:

> Susan Cohen wrote:
> >
> > meshehu wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3aa39749.10322919@news.rcn.com>, davic@erols.com (David
> > > Goldman) wrote:
> > >
> > > > >Why do you think giving the Palestinians "back" their homes will stop
> > > > >bloodshed of Jewish (or Palestinian) lives? Were Jews not killed in equal
> > > > >and greater numbers throughout history? What does giving Palestinians homes
> > > > >have to do with bloodshed? If anything, they have shown the more we give
> > > > >them, the more they kill us!!!
> > > >
> > > > >Rafi
> > > >
> > > > What do you mean?? Since the Palestinians are not looking for "gifts"
> > > > but justice,
> >
> > Oh, please! This has got to be the biggest peice of propaganda
> > you've ever swallowed & regurgitated!
> > If they were looking for "justice", they'd
> > a) place the blame for their situation where it actually belongs -
> > on the shoulders of their leaders & their own gullibility
> > b) they would AT THE VERY LEAST have followed thru on
> > the promises they made at Oslo
> > c) they would *certainly* have taken the offer they were last
> > made.
>
>         If they do none of the above, it is still greed and avarice motivating
> them to steal the property of others.
>
>         Why work so hard to confirm an old stereotype is in fact true?
>
> > Instead, they have done nothing but lie to the world (that either
> > doesn't realize or doesn't care) & continued to not only kill Jews,
> > but incite each other to kill Jews & raise their own children to
> > focus on little else.
>
> > They don't want a homeleand; they want an excuse to kill Jews.
>
>         Deadly force is universally justified in the recovery of stolen
> property.
>
> > > all that is required is to allow any Palestinian who
> > > > wants to return to anywhere in Palestine to do so, or receive
> > > > compensation. Plus total equal rights and the end to Apartheid. What's
> > > > so hard about that? Put the paranoia aside.
> > >
> > > Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the PA appointed "Futwa Council" and
> > > former acting Rector of the Islamic University in Gaza:
> > >
> >
> > Thanks for posting this, but I'm sure it won't penetrate.
> >
> > Susan
> >
> > >
> > > <...>
> > >
> > > "Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country.
> > > Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them. Wherever
> > > you are, kill those Jews and those Americans who are like them - and those
> > > who stand by them - they are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the
> > > Muslims - because they established Israel here, in the beating heart of
> > > the Arab world, in Palestine. They created it to be the outpost of their
> > > civilization - and the vanguard of their army, and to be the sword of the
> > > West and the crusaders, hanging over the necks of the monotheists, the
> > > Muslims in these lands. They wanted the Jews to be their spearhead"
> > >
> > > "Let us put our trust in Allah, close ranks, and unite our words, and the
> > > slogan of us all should be, 'Jihad! Jihad! For the sake of Palestine, and
> > > for the sake of Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa!'"
> > >
> > > "We will not give up a single grain of soil of Palestine, from Haifa, and
> > > Jaffa, and Acre, and Mulabbas [Petah Tikva] and Salamah, and Majdal
> > > [Ashkelon], and all the land, and Gaza, and the West BankS"
> > >
> > > "Allah, deal with the Jews, your enemies and the enemies of Islam. Deal
> > > with the crusaders, and America, and Europe behind them, O Lord of the
> > > worlds."
> > >
> > > This document was translated by The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI)
> > >
> > > http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/20001011_xcbtl_myths_brmi.shtml
>
> --
> For recycling, should trash be separated by color,
> religion, sexual orientation or ethnic origin?
>       -- The Iron Webmaster, 25



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:45 EST 2001
Article: 532197 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA44B2A.7DC7AE08@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,israel.lists.il-talk,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.culture.arab-league
Subject: Re: It is not Jewish property: GIVE THE PALESTINIANS BACK THEIR HOMES!!!
References: <340f6f6e.1200310@news.erols.com> <3aa27cb1.11661744@news.rcn.com>  <3AA3E250.4766B1A5@tampabay.rr.com> <9811ss$1pdq$1@news.tht.net> <3AA435CF.FAEC121D@tampabay.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 13
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:27:55 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983845555 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:25:55 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:25:55 EST
Xref: hub.org soc.culture.arabic:63100 soc.culture.palestine:113259 israel.lists.il-talk:5561 talk.politics.mideast:175114 soc.culture.jewish:532197 alt.culture.arab-league:5010

No it has been robbed by the monstrous Zionists.
RLA

Matt Giwer wrote:

> "Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:
>
>         It is still not jewish property and has been stolen.
>
> --
> Even Sir Thomas More was convicted in an English court.
>         -- The Iron Webmaster, 456



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:46 EST 2001
Article: 532203 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA45925.6A418695@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,israel.lists.il-talk,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.culture.arab-league
Subject: Re: It is not Jewish property: GIVE THE PALESTINIANS BACK THEIR HOMES!!!
References: <340f6f6e.1200310@news.erols.com> <3AA3E250.4766B1A5@tampabay.rr.com> <9811ss$1pdq$1@news.tht.net> <3AA445FA.694A83DA@bellsouth.net> <981ib7$1sqc$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 82
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:27:33 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983849132 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:25:32 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:25:32 EST
Xref: hub.org soc.culture.arabic:63103 soc.culture.palestine:113264 israel.lists.il-talk:5563 talk.politics.mideast:175124 soc.culture.jewish:532203 alt.culture.arab-league:5012

Mr. McVay lies when he says I called half of American Jewry liars.
He could not produce evidence of this, of course, since I didn't say it.
He then said that I had called Zionists liars.  Here he is on firmer ground,
since the large majority of the Zionists and their sympathizers who post
here make lying into an art.  (There are a few who are honest, but
damned few. Giora Drachsler, Albert Reingewirtz, a few others, not many.)
Then he asserts that I said that half of American Jewry are Zionists.
Now this I never said.  For openers, I use the term Zionist sympathizer
for most of the Jews who do not live in Israel, yet support it.  They display
various shades of opinion, and many are not quite so dogmatic in their
ideology as the real thing.  For another, the statistic does not recommend itself
to
me as being true.  Most American Jews are conservative or Reform,
and a large number more just don't belong to any group any more.
More than half the marriages in American Jewry are outside the group,
and although some outsiders, mainly women, convert, most don't and one
would think that these families are not devout at least.  So it is an excellent
question how many American Jews support Israel.  Another excellent question
is how many _would_ support Israel if they knew what a horrible country
Israel really is.
McVay is really just spamming this NG, it takes no time nor effort to
paste up the same defamation time after time.  One wonders why he does it.
Do you suppose that B'nai Brith has told him to: "go get 'em tiger"?
I had thought he was a young, naive sort, turns out he is mid fifties, old
enough to know better than to post this tripe he puts out.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA445FA.694A83DA@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >Mr. McVay is a paid propagandist for the Zionists.  He makes no secret of
> >this
> >but has claimed in the past that his efforts are directed only to the
> >Holocaust.
> >He is now going the whole hog, taking the Zionist part in matters to do
> >only with
> >Israel and Palestine.  I thought he might.
>
> Don't want to deal with the reality, eh, Mr. Alexander? Can't say I'm
> surprised... after all, you're the maroon who calls half of American
> Jewry liars.
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
> "...I note that on the few occasions of which I am aware where purveyors of
> anti-Semitic propaganda have endeavoured to justify their materials in
> court on the facts and the merits, they have been singularly unsuccessful..."
>    (http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/scully-olga/reason.html)



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:47 EST 2001
Article: 532204 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA45985.B4558F77@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: The Saddest Sentence | Brad Rubin
References: <3AA257F8.5E493A3A@bellsouth.net> <97uccg$6sl$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <97umiu$ogm$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> <97v7lf$eg4$3@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <97vm7e$7a4$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au>  <981736$qgl$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> <050320011840202688%albert@nethere.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 17
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:29:10 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983849228 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:27:08 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:27:08 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175125 soc.culture.israel:328258 soc.culture.jewish:532204 soc.culture.usa:604872



Albert Reingewirtz wrote:

> In article <981736$qgl$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au>, Tom H.
>  wrote:
>
> > Id form a mob too if self righteous bastards came and built settlements on
> > my property.
>
> Is this what you want the Aborigines to do, ass hole?

Come on, Albert.  Aborigines are the people of Australia.
The comment is a fair one, you would admit if you weren't so imbued with
your ideology.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:47 EST 2001
Article: 532207 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA45DE7.4B9A70B3@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: The Saddest Sentence | Brad Rubin
References: <3AA257F8.5E493A3A@bellsouth.net> <97uccg$6sl$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net> <97umiu$ogm$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> <97v7lf$eg4$3@slb0.atl.mindspring.net> <97vm7e$7a4$1@bugstomper.ihug.com.au> <981j4p$ih8$1@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 36
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:47:52 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983850350 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:45:50 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:45:50 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175131 soc.culture.israel:328264 soc.culture.jewish:532207 soc.culture.usa:604884

Very erudite.  Why is ti that your brains are so advanced and your
moral sense is atrophied?
RLA

Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:28:08 +1100, Tom H. 
> wrote:
>
> >> No. If the "littler" (What is the criterion for being "littler" in
> >> this instance?) kids are throwing rocks on the other hand...
> >
> >So you're saying that if little kids throw rocks it's ok to launch
> >rockets at them?
>
> War is not a sport.
>
> There were people in the Middle Ages who thought that war is a sport.
> For example, Beorhtnoth, Earl of Essex, was the commander of the
> English forces at the Battle of Maldon. At that battle, the English
> were on one side of a river and the Danes on the other side. The only
> way to cross was via a narrow bridge which the English were able to
> defend. The vikings (commanded by Hagar the Horrible, no doubt) asked
> permission to cross the bridge in order for a "fair fight" to take
> place. Beorhtnoth agreed to let them across. This was followed by a
> battle in which the Earl and his loyal followers (Moe, Larry, and
> Curly) were killed and the English defeated. Beorhtnoth has since
> acquired a reputation as a first-class fool.
>
> But wait, there's more. The Crusades took place shortly after the
> vikings were converted to Christianity. The Crusades bear a closer
> resemblance to viking raids than anything else. In other words, the
> Palestinians are using Crusader tactics.
>
> Do you really think we'll fall for that?



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:47 EST 2001
Article: 532277 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA51EA2.DD530CA7@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Now I Am Ashamed | Sarah Shartal
References: <3AA2577C.53A6AAE6@bellsouth.net> <3AA2C0C5.CDF0D8C9@hotmail.com> <3AA2C36F.7979608A@tampabay.rr.com> <040320011608327150%albert@nethere.com> <3%4p6.73$54.170@www.newsranger.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 42
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:30:10 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983899676 208.61.185.82 (Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:27:56 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:27:56 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175203 soc.culture.israel:328336 soc.culture.jewish:532277 soc.culture.usa:605145



Jack White wrote:

> In article <040320011608327150%albert@nethere.com>, Albert Reingewirtz
> says...
> >
> >In article <3AA2C36F.7979608A@tampabay.rr.com>, Matt
> Giwer
> > wrote:
> >
> >> ehad haam wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I wonder
> if it was done before or after they started killing Jews
> >> > in what now a PA
> official admitted was a staged violent uprising .
> >>
> >>         When was the
> lie about it being created? How long did it take for the
> >> lie to become gospel
> truth?
> >>
> >>         Israel, the Land of Red Queens.
> >>
> >> > If you Arabs
> don't want to suffer like always claim you are than
> >> > stop inciting and
> starting the regular killings and this is world
> >> > wide not only in Israel.
> >>
> >>         The West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem are not part of Israel. Get out while
> >> you still have a chance.
> >
> >Get out of Florida white trash it belongs to the Seminol Indians.
>
> Get out of Palestine you Zionazi, it belongs to the Native Palestinians.
> BTW, I'd be glad to sell my house to Native Americans and move if Native Americans said that my house was on their land. Can you make the same claim about selling your house to Palestinians since it's their land?

No, he can't.  Albert lives in California.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:47 EST 2001
Article: 258714 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9E3F00.5301C9F4@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: UC Berkeley union passes resolution calling for divestment from 
 companies in Israel
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 80
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:22:24 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103
X-Trace: news3.atl 983449235 208.63.207.103 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:20:35 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:20:35 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174588 soc.culture.israel:327636 soc.culture.usa:602785 soc.culture.canada:258714

Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 3:23 AM
Subject: [FreePalestine] Text of Union Resolution in support of
Palestine and divestment


 Everyone:

 The UC Berkeley unit of AGSE/UAW (Association of Graduate Student
 Employees/United Auto Workers) local 2865 passed the following
resolution
 tonight.

 I think that we should try to get similar resolutions passed in other
unions
 (both at the University of California and at workplaces across the
country).

 xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx
 UC Berkeley -- Students for Justice in Palestine and the International
 Socialist Organization

____________________________________________________________________
 UC Divestment Resolution

 Whereas during the last several months, we have witnessed an escalation
of
 Israeli military aggression against the Palestinian people, with a
 disproportionate number of Palestinian casualties, and illegal Israeli
 policies towards Palestinians including: the ongoing occupation and
 colonization of Palestinian territory; the denial of the rights of the
over
 4 million Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties
in
 Palestine; land confiscations and home demolitions; mass arrests and
 executions without due process; the use of lethal military force
against a
 civilian population; curfews and village closures as collective
punishment;
 and a systematic bias against non-Jews in Israeli law and official
practice,
 and

 Whereas the state of Israel possesses the most advanced, well-funded,
and
 technologically sophisticated military in the Middle East, and

 Whereas Israel refuses to acknowledge its displacement of Palestinian
people
 and the ongoing military occupation of Palestine, as well as its
violation
 of UN Resolutions 181, 194, and 141 and the Fourth Geneva Convention,
and

 Whereas the state of Israel has impoverished an entire nation of people

 through its control over access to meaningful jobs, travel, water,
 electricity, and political rights, and

 Whereas the University of California invests more than 6.2 billion
dollars
 in companies that do business in Israel, including General Electric and

 Raytheon, which are military contractors for the state of Israel, and

 Whereas as students at the University of California, academic student
 employees recognize that the investment strategies of the university
should
 not aid in the exploitation, displacement, and victimization of the
 Palestinian people,

 BE IT RESOLVED that the Berkeley unit of AGSE/UAW local 2865 lends its
 support to the Palestinian people and calls on the UC Regents to end
its
 financial ties to Israel by divesting from companies with subsidiaries
in
 Israel and/or substantial financial commitments (over 5 million
dollars) to
 the Israeli economy.




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:47 EST 2001
Article: 258715 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9E3FD1.2322417E@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: WJC trying to stifle Holocaust meeting in Lebanon
References: <3A9DAAFC.C9ED2BDB@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 80
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:25:53 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103
X-Trace: news3.atl 983449444 208.63.207.103 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:24:04 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:24:04 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174589 soc.culture.lebanon:144389 soc.culture.usa:602805 soc.culture.canada:258715



Kim Bebbington wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:50:52 -0600, Roger Alexander
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >NEW YORK, Feb 22 (Reuters) - The World Jewish Congress called on
> >Thursday for Lebanon to block what the group said was an anti-Semitic
> >Holocaust meeting funded by Iran that will be held in Beirut next month.
> >
> >Lord Greville Janner, the WJC vice president, wrote to Swedish Prime
> >Minister Goran Persson on Feb. 21, asking him to "use your good offices
> >to call on the Lebanese government not to permit this polemic,
> >anti-Semitic and hate-inspired conference to be held in their capital."
> >
> >Elan Steinberg, the WJC executive director who gave Janner's letter
> >to Reuters, said the Jewish advocacy group appealed to Persson because
> >his country currently holds the European Union's rotating presidency.
> >
> >He said Stockholm also hosted a conference last year on Holocaust
> >education called "Combating Intolerance" that was attended by 40
> >nations.
> >
> >Marc Weber, director of the Newport Beach, California-based Institute
> >for Historical Review, said his group was helping the Swiss organization
> >
> >Verite et Justice put on the conference, which is called "Revisionism
> >and Zionism."
> >
> >"People in Lebanon should have the same right to attend and host a
> >conference, the same as other people have in the United States," Weber
> >said.
> >
> >According to Weber, the Verite et Justice director Jurgen Graf was
> >sentenced by a Swiss court in July 1998 for what Weber called "Holocaust
> >
> >denial." Graf now lives in Tehran as the guest of scholars, according to
> >
> >Weber.
> >
> >He said said he did not know whether Iran was paying for the Beirut
> >conference.
> >
> >Weber said his group did not deny the Holocaust occurred, but he said it
> >
> >published many works that were skeptical of what he called "the hype,
> >hyperbole, misreporting and distortion" about the Holocaust.
> >
> >((Joan Gralla, U.S. Municipal Desk, +1 212 859 1654,
> >joan.gralla@reuters.com))
> >
> >Thursday, 22 February 2001 20:10:46
> >ENDS [nN22293329]
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------
> >
> >Zionists
> ???
> "There enters here a certain confusion between Zionists and Jews.  I
> am pretty precise in my wording.  When I mean Zionists, I say
> Zionists."
>         From: Roger Alexander 
>         Message-ID: <38825C1E.DDFF6C10@bellsouth.net>
>         Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 18:02:39 -0600
>
> >want freedom of speech for themselves, and want to deny it to
> >others.
> >RLA
>
> Says Roger Alexander, who boasts of suing an individual for his usenet
> posts.....

Pretty hard to understand what is meant by this diehard Zionist poster.
But assuming that he means that the World Jewish Congress is not
Zionist, he is wrong.  It is.  Or Zionist sympathizing.
Get real.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:48 EST 2001
Article: 258716 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9E4029.83DF5370@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Barbara Amiel is the wife of Conrad Black
References: <3A9DB83F.EE7F4F5A@bellsouth.net> <3a9dc8bb.1899792@enews.newsguy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 18
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:27:22 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103
X-Trace: news3.atl 983449532 208.63.207.103 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:25:32 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:25:32 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174590 soc.culture.canada:258716 soc.culture.usa:602806

Maybe so, particularly if you are Canadian, but it might be news to
some.
I had heard it, but this was pretty clear.
RLA

Blair Sheridan wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:47:27 -0600, Roger Alexander
>  wrote:
>
> >Subject: Barbara Amiel & Daily Telegraph should be exposed
> >
> >
> >I have been told that Amiel is the wife of the Daily
> >Telegraph publisher (or was it the editor - not sure).
> >
> And just who didn't know this before?  It's hardly news.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:49 EST 2001
Article: 258717 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9E4124.6AF1DF0B@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: WJC trying to stifle Holocaust meeting in Lebanon
References: <3A9DAAFC.C9ED2BDB@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 26
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 06:31:32 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103
X-Trace: news3.atl 983449783 208.63.207.103 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:29:43 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:29:43 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174591 soc.culture.lebanon:144390 soc.culture.usa:602810 soc.culture.canada:258717



Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> >
> > Zionists want freedom of speech for themselves, and want to deny it to
> > others.
>
> No, what we really want is for Lebanon
> to host conferences by the Flat Earth Society,
> the Cold Fusion Coalition, and other
> similarly reputable organizations as well.
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
>

Inane.  Since you cannot address the reality of the terrible oppression
of Palestinians by Israeli Jews, you piddle around with one liners.
Only question is why.
Maybe it is because you are an Israeli Jew.
RLA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:50 EST 2001
Article: 258722 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9E4FBC.9776F59F@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: AMJ holds Press Conference to Announce Estee Lauder Boycott
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 79
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:33:48 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103
X-Trace: news2.atl 983453517 208.63.207.103 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:31:57 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:31:57 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174593 soc.culture.israel:327646 soc.culture.palestine:112950 soc.culture.usa:602828 soc.culture.canada:258722 soc.culture.british:552170

Arabs call for boycott of Estee Lauder

In the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful
American Muslims for Jerusalem
208 G Street, NE
Suite 100
Washington, DC 20002
Phone: (202) 548-4200
Fax: (202) 548-4201
E-mail: amj@amjerusalem.org
WWW: http://www.amjerusalem.org


AMJ holds Press Conference to Announce Estee Lauder Boycott
On Wednesday, February 28, American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ) lead a
coalition of advocacy organizations in a press conference calling for a
worldwide boycott of cosmetics giant Estée Lauder. That announcement was
prompted by Estée Lauder International Chairman Ronald Lauder's
activities in support of Israeli right-wing extremists.

Estee Lauders products include: Estee Lauder line of perfume and
make-up, Aramis, Clinique, Aveda, DKNY and Tommy Hilfegere toiletries
products. Estee Lauder also owns several lines of hair and skin care
products and shops such as M.A.C. and Origins.

Ronald Lauder is the Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major
American Jewish Organizations and President of the Jewish National Fund
(JNF). JNF is a quasi-government agency whose main function is to
legitimize Israeli's theft of Palestinian land.

In January, Lauder was the key speaker from the US at a rally in
Jerusalem, organized by right wing Israeli politician Natan Sharansky.
The rally was organized to oppose the mere consideration of Jerusalem as
a negotiation item. Lauder addressed 300,000 Israeli extremists at the
gates of Haram Al-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary, one of Islam's three
holiest sites). Some of the protesters tried to break into the holy
site.

Khalid Turaani, AMJ's Executive Director said "this boycott of Estee
Lauder will send a clear message that people of conscience refuse to do
business with corporations supporting Israeli apartheid policies which
violate internationally-recognized human rights".

In 1993, Lauder co-founded a think tank called the Shalem Center with
Yoram Hazony, a former Netanyahu aid. The Israeli Education Ministry has
said the center is "a research institute whose leanings are extreme
right-wing and even fascistic." Hebrew University professor Yisrael
Bartal describes Hazony as a right-wing extremist. A columnist for the
Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz (9/14/2000) wrote that Hazony is a
sympathizer of the slain radical Jewish leader Meir Kahane, who called
for the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel. The goal of Hazony, wrote
the columnist, is to find new ways of "breathing life into Kahane's
racist, totalitarian, intolerant ideology."

Ronald Lauder's Jerusalem-rally speech came at a time when the Israeli
government was waging a campaign of siege and starvation against the
entire Palestinian population. While Mr. Lauder supports some legitimate
charitable causes in the US, he shows his true colors when abroad by
supporting fanatic causes that seek to uproot an entire population from
its native land. Lauder is also opposed to permitting Palestinian
refugees to return to their homes. "For Israel to allow these people to
return would be national suicide," he said in a statement last
September. In contrast, the UN General Assembly has demanded that Israel
allow the Palestinian refugees to return since 1948. "Lauder's
opposition to the return of Palestinian refugees in order to maintain
the pure-Jewish identity of Israel is nothing short of apartheid at its
worst" said Turaani.


American Muslims for Jerusalem
208 G Street NE
Suite 100
Washington, DC 20002
Phone: (202) 548-4200
Fax: (202) 548-4201
E-mail: amj@amjerusalem.org
WWW: http://www.amjerusalem.org IMRA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:50 EST 2001
Article: 258725 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9E570F.DB095F3E@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: "Facts on the ground"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 404
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:05:04 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103
X-Trace: news1.atl 983455393 208.63.207.103 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:03:13 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:03:13 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174598 soc.culture.israel:327656 soc.culture.usa:602842 soc.culture.canada:258725 soc.culture.british:552175

>From Z Net.
RLA

"Facts on the ground"
By Sean Gonzalves

JERUSALEM -- I was humbled by my ignorance. But even the ignorant
quickly
learns that studying maps and learning the lay of the land is central
to
understanding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"If you only look at what is called the 'peace process,' from the
political
point of view, you get a certain picture," Jeff Halper explained in
his
Jerusalem living room.

Halper, an American-born Israeli Jew, is a professor of anthropology
at Ben
Gurion University. He's been part of the Israeli peace movement for
over 25
years and now heads up an organization called the Israeli Committee
Against
(Palestinian) House Demolitions.

Without dismissing the good things that have come from the "peace
process"
Halper, with humility and painstaking thoroughness, illustrates that
if you
focus only on the political rhetoric the picture you get of the
conflict is
severely distorted.

"Look at the generous offer that Israel made the Palestinians - 95
percent
of the West Bank, dividing Jerusalem" - a typical American (and
Israeli)
reaction to news reports about the "peace process," Halper said.

Then he asked, "How do you explain the Palestinian reaction to that?"
When
the Barak government first started negotiating, they were offering 42
percent of the West Bank and the Palestinian negotiating team
rejected the
proposal. "You see or hear about these advances and think Israel has
come
around and then the Palestinians start shooting. It doesn't make any
sense
to people," he continued.

What you have to plug into the equation is what's happening on the
ground.
"Unless you can understand the maps, unless you can understand why 95
percent isn't a good deal for Palestinians, or what the other five
percent
means, then it's impossible to evaluate what's going on. Why are the
Palestinians behaving the way they are? Is Barak really generous?"

We left Halper's house for a three-hour tour of parts of "Metropolitan
Jerusalem," which I later learned encompasses, not just the city of
Jerusalem, but 40 percent of the West Bank, including large
Palestinian
towns and villages -- Ramalla, El Bireh, Beit Sahour, Bethlehem and
Beit
Jalla, to name a few.

What one has to understand about Jerusalem is that it is being
transformed
>from a city into a larger region by the Israeli government. This has
three
effects. 1) It divides the northern part of the West Bank from the
southern
part. 2) It isolates Jerusalem's Palestinian population from fellow
Palestinians and 3) it creates a corridor from Tel Aviv to Amman,
Jordan.
All of this ensures Israeli control over any Palestinian state that
might
emerge from the "peace process."

Then Halper started talking about something called E1 -- an Israeli
government plan that annexes Palestinian land to create a contiguous
urban
strip between Jerusalem and the West Bank settlement of Ma'aleh
Adumim. E1
effectively cuts the West Bank in half, which, when and if its
completed,
will prevent the free movement of Palestinians and their goods and
therefore
make a viable Palestinian state impossible.

According to the Master Plan approved by former Defense Minister Moshe
Arens, E1 calls for 1,500 exclusively Jewish housing units, an
industrial
park, offices, entertainment and sports centers, 10 hotels, health and
academic facilities and a regional cemetery.

Many of the Israeli "settlers" are being used as pawns, Halper said.
The
Israeli government builds these subsidized settlements for poor and
working-poor Israelis as an incentive for them to move into
Palestinian
areas. "I call them economic settlers. They're not religious settlers
as in
other settlements. If the government built homes for them inside
Israel
proper, they would move."

E1, also known as Plan 420/4 Ma'aleh Adumim, is illegal in
international law
to the extent that it promotes the settlement of an occupying power in
occupied territories. It violates Israeli Supreme Court decisions that
settlements can only be established for security purposes and it
violates
the Interim Agreement of Oslo that obligates Israel to preserve the
status
quo and territorial integrity of the West Bank pending final
negotiations.

"E1 creates facts on the ground by unalterably integrating Israeli
settlement and infrastructure on the West Bank into Israel proper,"
Halper
said. "Keep in mind that the settlement population has doubled since
the
Oslo accords were signed."

None of this is to say that Israel doesn't have a right to exist or
that
fringe Palestinian violence is justified. But if you want to
understand
Palestinian rejection of Barak's "generous" offer, you must
understand the
"facts on the ground." Add to this the fact that it's all being
imposed by
US-supported military might and you'll understand a small piece of
what it
is that Palestinians are rejecting.
Breeding ground for terrorism
HEBRON -- When talking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the
various perspectives involved, it doesn't take long for grown
intelligent
people to start talking like kids about who did what to whom, first.

But life in Israel and the Occupied Territories is not some John
Wayne flick
where the forces of heavenly good are up against pure evil. It's more
like a
Clint Eastwood western, where moral shades of gray are the norm; the
protagonist and antagonist both fighting inner demons, even as they
interact
with one another.

Recognize: aside from divine intervention, the state of Israel is
here to
stay, at least for the foreseeable future. In talking with hundreds of
Palestinians from across the West Bank and Gaza, it's clear to me
that they
too have accepted this reality. Time brings change. After all, 60
percent of
the Palestinian population now living in the West Bank and Gaza is
under the
age of 30.

As I walked around the Old City of Jerusalem, and then in visiting the
Wailing Wall, it struck me how wonderful it must feel to be a Jew in
a place
where you can revel in your Jewish-ness with the relative security
that you
won't be expelled or exterminated en mass for just being Jewish.

The flip side is: establishing the secular nation-state of Israel has
brought with it the displacement of hundreds of thousands of
Palestinian
natives. And for Palestinians who didn't flee, it has meant 52 years
under
military occupation by a vastly superior military force. Think Mike
Tyson in
a fistfight with Elian Gonzales.

In the city of Hebron, which is in the West Bank, just down the
street from
where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac and Jacob are buried, is the office and
home of
the Christian Peacemaker Team - a small group of American and Canadian
Mennonites. Besides offering counseling services to Palestinians, CPT
members patrol the streets engaging in nonviolent interventions
whenever
they see some physical violence about to erupt between
Israeli "settlers" or
soldiers and Palestinian villagers - a routine occurrence, most often
being
committed by the former against the latter.

Anita Fast, a CPT staff member, told us it is a common occurrence
for "the
settlers," many of them toting guns on their hips, to harass and
intimidate
Palestinian villagers by tipping over their vegetable carts in the
market,
throwing rotten vegetables, spitting or yelling racist insults at
them. An
American lawyer we met a few days later just outside Nazareth
commented:
"It's like Mississippi 1930 over here. apartheid. I had no idea it
was like
this before I came."

Of the 6.3 million Israelis who live in Isreal and the Occupied
Territories,
195,000 of them are "settlers" who live in these
beautiful "settlements"
throughout Occupied Palestine, outside of Israel Proper. But the word
"settlements" brings to mind some old-Western gold rush village.
They're
nothing like that -- except for the guns. Picture one of those
private-gated
communities you see in suburban America surrounded by several thousand
soldiers with guns, tanks, sandbags, US supplied helicopters and other
assorted weaponry.

The "settlers," Anita explained, verbally and physically attack
Palestinians
on a regular basis. It usually goes the settlers' way, not because
Palestinians are a bunch of Dalai Lamas (although Palestinians are
very
friendly and hospitable people). It has more to do with the presence
of the
Israeli Defense Force posted in strategic military outposts along the
streets and on rooftops everywhere.

The IDF completely controls the roads, the air and the sea. So, let's
say a
"settler" is senselessly killed by a Palestinian gunmen. The typical
IDF
response is: road closures, trapping Palestinians in their village. A
20-hour, stay-in-your-house curfew is also imposed on every
Palestinian in
the village. This after the IDF shells an entire neighborhood
suspected to
be the area from where the gunmen fired. I'm talking tank and
helicopter
attacks for up to six hours -- clearly a campaign not to catch the
gunman
but to terrorize people whose only crime is that they happen to live
in the
vicinity and are Palestinian.

This is known as "collective punishment," meted out because of the
desperate
violent act of some hope-lost Palestinian, unrelated to the
Palestinians
being bombed and shot at by IDF forces.

Walking up a central street in the old city of Hebron with a
Palestinian
journalist, we passed by two soldiers standing on the sidewalk next
to two
teenage Israeli "settlers." Smirks on their face, the "settler" kids
gave
the newsman the middle-fingered salute and said some nasty things
about his
father. He said something nasty about their mother.

"Do you know them," I asked. "No, I've never seen them before," he
said,
shrugging it off as if they were just saying hello to one another.
Now I
realize: They were saying hello to each other.

A 'settlers' peace settlement
EFRATZ -- We went to the Efratz settlement to meet with its spokesman,
Efraim Mayer. After having visited the West Bank and Gaza, we wanted
to hear
a Zionist viewpoint of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Many "pro-Israeli" Americans (some of whom have angrily emailed me in
recent
weeks) would argue that any talk of Palestinian oppression is mere
propaganda. So it is revealing to note that Efraim -- a former IDF
soldier
and now a "hawkish," conservative, religious, Israeli settler --
confirmed
what we had seen, that, indeed, Palestinians are forced to "live like
dogs"
in the name of Israeli defense.

We didn't get a chance to ask if he thought it a contradiction to
speak in
terms of "defense" while at the same time acknowledging that the
enemy is
being forced to "live like dogs?" Let's just say he wasn't exactly
encouraging us to ask probing questions. He wanted to talk, hoping -
knowing - that we would go back and tell our American friends his
truth.

"Efratz came from the Bible," he said. "This is our document to show
all
over the world that we got this land from God."

We were sitting under clear blue skies in what looked like one of
those
picnic areas you see at a nice public park. Kneeling on the ground a
few
picnic tables away was an old Palestinian man, quietly replacing
bricks
under one of the tables.

"The Arabs believe this land belongs to them. But in the Bible, we
can find
the Palestinian people as murderers -- descendents of Ishmael,"
Efraim said.

I'm still having a difficult time trying to distinguish between his
feelings
about Palestinians and the "Christian" American white supremacist who
points
to the biblical "curse of Ham" to justify black oppression.

"We have Rabin. We have Barak. This is what we call garbage. They
break the
proud-ness of Israel in the last generation." These political leaders
have
turned their back on God, Efraim explained. "They think that in
talking to a
murderer you can get peace."

"Israel has only one-way: to start to fight.It (doesn't make sense)
to sit
and talk with people when you know exactly that after the
discussions, they
are taking you and killing you -- your children, your family,
everyone in
the world," he continued.

"I have two sons in the army. I tell my children -- we tell our
children in
the schools, starting in kindergarten -- to live in the fatherland
you have
to fight."

"We are very satisfied that Clinton isn't president anymore because we
thought he brought problems here, the same thing with the father
Bush - very
anti-Semitic. We believe that friendship with the United States --
friendship with other lands -- must be on the basis that Israel
belongs to
the Jewish Israeli-nation. We are going to break this mindset all
over the
world that Israel can be split up with Palestinians."

Then he compared the formation and defense of the state of Israel as
being
similar to America's founding and what happened to Native Americans
at the
hands of the European settlers.

"Indian people in the United States are not going to ask for a piece
of
land. They are not going to do any intifada to pick up from the United
States pieces of Los Angeles. I'm waiting for the moment when someone
goes
to the government of the United States and says: 'we are going to
fight for
a piece of land,' and then starts to take pieces of land in the
capital of
the United States. It will be the last time that this guy opens his
mouth in
the democratic land of the United States."

"Let me explain to you who are the Palestinian people - the people
you are
loving so much. We are talking about murder groups. Terror groups.
Nothing
else..Now if you are with me we are going to go up. If not, we are
going to
fight. Palestinian people are not a nation. Remember what I am
telling you.
They are group of terrorists and guerillas of nothing with nothing -
also in
the eyes of Arab nations."

Efraim told us that 55 percent of Israelis share his views. I hope
he's
wrong because if you follow the logical extension of Efraim's
reasoning,
Palestinians are not real people because they have no country and
even Arab
nations reject them. And a people with no land are prone to be
violent,
living, as they do, like dogs.

Three obvious options come to mind. 1) Accept all Palestinians,
including
refugees, as equal citizens in a single bi-national democratic
nation. 2)
Set up a sovereign, democratically viable Palestinian state or, 3)
exterminate the enemy. Apparently, Efraim dismisses the first two
options.
(end)







From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:50 EST 2001
Article: 258728 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9E5B8A.DE95E550@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Palestinian dies in Military Intelligence custody in Nablus
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 55
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 08:24:10 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103
X-Trace: news3.atl 983456539 208.63.207.103 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:22:19 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:22:19 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174602 soc.culture.israel:327662 soc.culture.usa:602853 soc.culture.canada:258728 soc.culture.british:552180

Palestinian dies in Military Intelligence custody in Nablus

Source: From LAW

March 1, 2001 - In the evening of Tuesday 27 February, 30 year-old Salem

Al Akra'a from Kabalan near Nablus died at Al Watani Hospital in Nablus
after being transferred there from the town's Military Intelligence
Service prison.

Al Akra'a's cousin Ashraf Nofal, 27, stated to LAW that the Military
Intelligence Services had arrested Al Akra'a from a taxi rank east of
Nablus on 6 February 2001. He was held in custody and deprived of all
visits before being admitted to hospital five days ago.

In his statement to LAW, Ashraf added that he had seen Al Akra'a's body
in
the hospital morgue; there were signs of beating on the right side of
his
head as well as sloughs in his wrists and ankles and severe bruising on
his
back.

Based on the statement of Ashraf Nofal, LAW Society believes that the
deceased may have been subjected to "Shabeh"- shackling in a contorted
position - and beating by the Military Intelligence Services in Nablus.

LAW Society demands the concerned parties in the PNA to form a neutral
inquiry commission to investigate the death of Al Akra'a, make the
findings of the commission public along with the autopsy results, and
bring the perpetrators, if proven that the deceased was tortured, to
justice. LAW further demands that the PNA implement the law preventing
the
detention of civilians by military intelligence.

LAW - The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the

Environment is a non-governmental organisation dedicated to preserving
human
rights through legal advocacy.

LAW is affiliate to the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ),
Fédération Internationale des Ligues de Droits de l'Homme (FIDH), World
Organisation Against Torture (OMCT) and Member of the Euro-
Mediterranean
Human Rights Network

======================================

So much for the end of torture.  For all that appears, the victim did
nothing.

ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:50 EST 2001
Article: 258778 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Monsters
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 50
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:39:08 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.22
X-Trace: news1.atl 983489843 208.61.184.22 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:37:23 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:37:23 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174640 soc.culture.israel:327724 soc.culture.usa:603021 soc.culture.canada:258778 soc.culture.british:552353

Can anyone think the Israelis are anything but monsters?
RLA

=========================================

Dear Friends,

For a third night in a row, Israeli tanks shelled areas of Beit Jala.
Around 9 pm, without any warning, an explosion rocked our area as the
first tank shot with no warning.  For about 25 minutes, shell after
shell hit the town.  The area below St. Nicholas Church repeatedly came
under fire.  At least four more homes have been severly damaged and most
others in the area have sustained at least partial damage.

Last night, though, the tragedy was that Osama al Masalmeh, 18 years
old, was killed when his home was hit with a rocket.  Rescue workers
were not able to reach him until around 1 am this morning.  Twenty other
people were wounded in last night's attack.

Family after family are packing their bags today and leaving Beit Jala,
moving away from the firing line.  No home seems safe.  Osama thought
there was no danger as there was a row of houses between his home and
the tanks. But a tank pointing from another direction fired the shell
which took Osama's life.

There can be no justification of this on-going use of heavy artillery
against Palestinian civilian populations. The size of shells has
definitely seemed to increase, as once again people living in Jerusalem
could hear the explosions.

With families fleeing to protect their loved ones, I find it hard not to
wonder if this isn't the plan.  With families gone, the shells can fall,
destoying homes with 'little' human loss.  The world certainly doesn't
seem to be concerned with this senseless destruction.  So, I have to
ask, "will Beit Jala join the list of over 400 Palestinian villages
which have been destroyed over the last 52 years?"   Will we one day
say, 'If we had only known...."?

People will not be able to return, others will try to immigrate as far
as possible from the conflict.  This primarily Christian village will be
emptied of its sons and daughters if something doesn't change soon.

We're shifting our schedules around to try to get home before night
falls. One never knows - maybe tonight will be the fourth night.

Sincerely,

S.




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:51 EST 2001
Article: 258790 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9F10FD.FD855875@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada
Subject: IDF seals off Jericho with anti-tank trenches
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 64
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:18:22 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.205.61
X-Trace: news3.atl 983503002 208.63.205.61 (Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:16:42 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 22:16:42 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174663 soc.culture.israel:327741 soc.culture.usa:603072 soc.culture.british:552377 soc.culture.canada:258790

jpost
Friday, March 2 2001 03:09 7 Adar 5761

IDF seals off Jericho with anti-tank trenches
            By Arieh O'Sullivan

            TEL AVIV (March 2) - The IDF has surrounded
            Jericho with two-meter deep anti-tank ditches in
            an effort to stop Palestinians from leaving and
            Israelis from entering.

            If it works, then the IDF will consider
            encircling other cities in the West Bank with
            similar trenches, military sources said.

            The army said that the measure was taken after
            a number of shooting incidents in the area and
            infiltration into Israel of Palestinian gunmen
            from Jericho.

            "The trenches were dug near the road to
            prevent attacks and the IDF will take these
            actions according to its operational needs in
            order to protect Israeli civilians and soldiers,"
            an army statement said.

            Head of operations in the Central Command,
            Lt.-Col. Gil said that the trenches would save
            manpower previously needed to patrol around
            the city of 30,000. Jericho was chosen as a test
            case since it is relatively isolated and
            surrounded by open territory which allowed the
            easy digging of the trenches, he told the IDF
            weekly Bamahane.

            Gil said that the trenches were aimed at
            stopping Palestinian cars from bypassing IDF
            checkpoints on the main roads.

            According to the army, the trenches are not
            aimed at preventing people from crossing by
            foot, but are mainly a barrier against vehicles,
            including possible car bombs.

            The army also said that the trenches could be
            easily filled in at a later, more peaceful time.

            Residents told AP that the trenches are 1.5
            meters wide and amounted to collective
            punishment.

            "They close all the roads," said Yasser
            Affouneh, 18. "They don't let us go. They only
            want to make a big jail."
--

Independent Media Center
http://www.indymedia.org.il

----------------------------------------------

Israel displays more and more every day Nazi-like behavior.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:51 EST 2001
Article: 258857 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9FFA6A.1363C5DD@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:54:18 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983562742 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:52:22 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:52:22 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174734 soc.culture.israel:327817 soc.culture.usa:603325 soc.culture.canada:258857 soc.culture.british:552593

And the farmer hauled another load away.  This is quintessential Zionist
rhetoric.
You aggress against someone (generally Palestinians), and when they fight
back you characterize your brutal repression as "daring to respond"!
Only Zionists do this stuff, the Nazis and Communists are gone.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > Can anyone think the Israelis are anything but monsters?
> > RLA
> >
> > =========================================
> >
> > Dear Friends,
> >
> > For a third night in a row, Israeli tanks shelled areas of Beit Jala.
>
> We dare to respond to snipers.
>
> The Nerve!
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:52 EST 2001
Article: 258860 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <97l1i1011rq@edrn.newsguy.com> <3A9F2C33.443FFBF5@tampabay.rr.com> <97nj76$2nui$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 58
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:09:42 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983563668 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:07:48 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:07:48 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174738 soc.culture.israel:327821 soc.culture.usa:603332 alt.revisionism:870153 soc.culture.canada:258860 soc.culture.british:552598

This idiot McVay runs a small subsidiary of the Holocaust Industry, known
as Nizkor.
It has no means of making money that I know of, and so depends entirely on
contributions
>from B'nai Brith Canada.  One of their efforts is "exposing" those who
differ with the Holocaust Orthodoxy, which is sought to be made illegal to
argue with, and has so been made illegal
in Germany and France, and I believe in some other countries.  He is a real
piece of work.
I often disagree with Matt Giwer, but I find him rational and intelligent.
This is more than
I can say for McVay, for whom I have developed a fine contempt.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3A9F2C33.443FFBF5@tampabay.rr.com>,
> Matt Giwer   wrote:
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
>
>      "Denial of Science & The Science of Denial"
>           The Techniques of Holocaust Denial
>   http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:52 EST 2001
Article: 258862 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA002B6.BA776F66@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: IDF seals off Jericho with anti-tank trenches
References: <3A9F10FD.FD855875@bellsouth.net> <3A9F64B0.BBF63B18@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 78
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:29:43 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983564866 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:27:46 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:27:46 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174740 soc.culture.israel:327826 soc.culture.usa:603342 soc.culture.british:552608 soc.culture.canada:258862

I don't know how to deal with this post except by pointing out that it is
stupid.
Not only that, but the poster shows that he doesn't give a damn in Hell
for the
people abused by Israel.  Of course, Zionists as a group seem to revel in
other
people's misery, particularly when they create that misery.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > jpost
> > Friday, March 2 2001 03:09 7 Adar 5761
> >
> > IDF seals off Jericho with anti-tank trenches
> >             By Arieh O'Sullivan
> >
> >             TEL AVIV (March 2) - The IDF has surrounded
> >             Jericho with two-meter deep anti-tank ditches in
> >             an effort to stop Palestinians from leaving and
> >             Israelis from entering.
> >
> >             If it works, then the IDF will consider
> >             encircling other cities in the West Bank with
> >             similar trenches, military sources said.
> >
> >             The army said that the measure was taken after
> >             a number of shooting incidents in the area and
> >             infiltration into Israel of Palestinian gunmen
> >             from Jericho.
> >
> >             "The trenches were dug near the road to
> >             prevent attacks and the IDF will take these
> >             actions according to its operational needs in
> >             order to protect Israeli civilians and soldiers,"
> >             an army statement said.
> >
> >             Head of operations in the Central Command,
> >             Lt.-Col. Gil said that the trenches would save
> >             manpower previously needed to patrol around
> >             the city of 30,000. Jericho was chosen as a test
> >             case since it is relatively isolated and
> >             surrounded by open territory which allowed the
> >             easy digging of the trenches, he told the IDF
> >             weekly Bamahane.
> >
> >             Gil said that the trenches were aimed at
> >             stopping Palestinian cars from bypassing IDF
> >             checkpoints on the main roads.
> >
> >             According to the army, the trenches are not
> >             aimed at preventing people from crossing by
> >             foot, but are mainly a barrier against vehicles,
> >             including possible car bombs.
> >
> >             The army also said that the trenches could be
> >             easily filled in at a later, more peaceful time.
> >
> >             Residents told AP that the trenches are 1.5
> >             meters wide and amounted to collective
> >             punishment.
> >
> >             "They close all the roads," said Yasser
> >             Affouneh, 18. "They don't let us go. They only
> >             want to make a big jail."
> > -------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The trenches are not   meant to keep the "palestinians" out of
> Israel.   They are meant to keep the  Israelis from getting IN to the
> territories  to  kill and drink the blood of arab children !
>
> M.G.
>
> >
> >



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:52 EST 2001
Article: 258864 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!europa.netcrusader.net!4.1.16.34!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA00736.E1903EAD@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>  
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 34
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:48:55 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983566018 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:46:58 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:46:58 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174743 soc.culture.israel:327828 soc.culture.usa:603347 soc.culture.canada:258864 soc.culture.british:552611

You son of a bitch.  You start from the presumption that the terrible oppression
visisted on the innocent people of Palestine by Israel is deserved, and so when
people take up arms to defend themselves, you, you apologist for murderers,
revile them.
I started to say "Get lost!" but I realize you are lost, lost in the cult of
Zionism.
RLA

meshehu wrote:

> In article , "People's Pizza"
>  wrote:
>
> > It's just a ploy by the Israeli state terror machine to clear Beit Jala and
> > build settlements there for the Zeolots.
> >
> >
> > Roger Alexander  wrote in message
> > news:3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net...
> > > Can anyone think the Israelis are anything but monsters?
> > > RLA
> > >
> > > =========================================
> > >
> > > Dear Friends,
> > >
> > > For a third night in a row, Israeli tanks shelled areas of Beit Jala.
> > > Around 9 pm, without any warning, an explosion rocked our area as the
>
> Since the tanzim and various other lowlife "terrorists" are using these
> homes as sniper headquarters, and have refused to heed the objections and
> pleas of the arab christian population they have forcefully displaced in
> order to do so, they get what they deserve.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:53 EST 2001
Article: 258869 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA017FC.541C3A96@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>  <3A9FFA6A.1363C5DD@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 18
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:00:29 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983570310 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:58:30 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:58:30 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174756 soc.culture.israel:327842 soc.culture.usa:603383 soc.culture.canada:258869 soc.culture.british:552624

You saw and snipped the point.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > And the farmer hauled another load away.  This is quintessential Zionist
> > rhetoric.
> It is the truth.
>
> Beit Jalla is a sniper's nest, hence the shelling.
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:53 EST 2001
Article: 258870 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3A9F2C33.443FFBF5@tampabay.rr.com> <97nj76$2nui$1@news.tht.net> <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net> <97ouue$3ri$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 109
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:05:54 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983570636 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:03:56 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:03:56 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174757 soc.culture.israel:327843 soc.culture.usa:603385 alt.revisionism:870161 soc.culture.canada:258870 soc.culture.british:552625

Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
But Oh well.
Comments interspersed.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >This idiot McVay runs a small subsidiary of the Holocaust Industry, known
> >as Nizkor.
> >It has no means of making money that I know of, and so depends entirely on
> >contributions
> >from B'nai Brith Canada.  One of their efforts is "exposing" those who
>
> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).
> B'nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor's behalf. If the
> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
>

You want disburse not disberse.  B'nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
contribute to it.  There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
to see it.  If B'nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
funds.
Period.
RLA

> >differ with the Holocaust Orthodoxy, which is sought to be made illegal to
> >argue with, and has so been made illegal
>
> The last time you defined this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander,
> you embarrassed yourself. Perhaps you would like to do so once again,
> and define it for your new readers.
>

Perhaps you would like to put up this alleged definition and explain what about
it is embarrassing to me.
RLA

>
> You might also reiterate your belief that 50% of American Jews are
> liars.. I'm sure folks would find that strange assertion of interest.
>

I might say that for the first time, but since I do not believe it, I will leave
it to you
to put up the alleged quote.
RLA

>
> >in Germany and France, and I believe in some other countries.  He is a real
> >piece of work.
> >I often disagree with Matt Giwer, but I find him rational and intelligent.
> >This is more than
> >I can say for McVay, for whom I have developed a fine contempt.
>
> Please do redefine this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander. I expect
> it will prove as embarrassing for you this time as it did the last.
>

Please put 'er up and we'll discuss her.  I look forward to it like a visit to
the dentist,
or to the surgeon, but I am game.
RLA

>
> Giwer?
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
> IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany
>     and America's Most Powerful Corporation, by Edwin Black
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609607995/thenizkorproject/
>              The Nizkor Project: http://www.nizkor.org



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:53 EST 2001
Article: 258871 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA01CEB.ACD2F2CA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>   <3AA00736.E1903EAD@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 57
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:21:31 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983571582 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:19:42 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:19:42 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174760 soc.culture.israel:327845 soc.culture.usa:603400 soc.culture.canada:258871 soc.culture.british:552629



meshehu wrote:

> In article <3AA00736.E1903EAD@bellsouth.net>, Roger Alexander
>  wrote:
>
> > You son of a bitch.  You start from the presumption that the terrible
> oppression
> > visisted on the innocent people of Palestine by Israel is deserved,
>
> No I didn't you illiterate sack of fetid fishguts.

I have to laugh. "illiterate sack of fetid fishguts".  You are still a rotten
SOB, but you get the palm for that.
RLA

> I started from the
> factual declaration that the tanzim displaced entire families of christian
> arabs from their homes, so that they could snipe jewish (civilian)
> neighbourhoods... knowing full well that the IDF would retaliate in
> defence of -it's- citizens (unlike the PA who apparently don't give a shit
> about their civilian populations).

Israel has no civilians in the West Bank.  Those people are all illegitimate
colonists,
illegal as all Hell.  Get them the Hell out of there and there won't be any
need for
a Tanzim. Get it?  I can make it clearer if need be.
RLA

>
>
> Arafat should have signed a peace deal instead of goading and conniving
> his people into this bullshit, all so that he could stoke his emotionally
> crippled ego and finally have his glorious "jihad" before he croaks.
>

No leader or any group of so'called leaders could sign the crazy deal
you bastard sons of bitches wanted themn to sign.  You weren't willing
that the Palestinian people should have their own country on their own land.
Bastards.  They will, though.
RLA

> The "innocent palestinians" are fighting the wrong people. They should be
> going after their slimeball leaders and the clinically psychotic murderers
> in the hizbella etc. etc. etc.

No, the Hizbollah aren't psychotic.  They forced you sons of bitches to leave
Lebanon after you had invaded it and made it a Hell hole for eighteen years.
And no the Palestinians aren't fighting the wrong people, in fact, most of the

Palestinians you bastards have killed haven't been fighting anyone,
just like the poor man you killed last night, then maligned the dead by saying
he was
a bomber.  You are real pieces of work, you are.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:54 EST 2001
Article: 258872 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA01E96.EA5BB510@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: The struggle is global -
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 46
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:28:38 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983571999 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:26:39 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:26:39 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174762 soc.culture.israel:327846 soc.culture.palestine:113045 soc.culture.usa:603404 soc.culture.canada:258872 soc.culture.british:552630

The struggle is global -
allegra

Some time ago, in an attempt to discredit one of the Zapatista leaders
in Southern Mexico, Sub-Comandante Marcos, Mexican
government officials there tried to put forth the idea that Marcos was
homosexual.  In a region where machismo still runs strong,
it was hoped this would tarnish the leader's credibility. He responded
by writing a poem...

"Yes, Marcos is gay.
Marcos is gay in San Francisco
Black in South Africa
an Asian in Europe,
a Chicano in San Ysidro,
an anarchist in Spain,
a Palestinian in Israel,
a Mayan Indian in the streets of San Cristobal,
a Jew in Germany,
a Gypsy in Poland,
a Mohawk in Quebec,
a pacifist in Bosnia,
a single woman on the Metro at 10 pm
a peasant without land,
a gang member in the slums,
an unemployed worker,
an unhappy student
and, of course,
a Zapatista in the mountains.

Marcos is all the exploited, marginalized,
oppressed minorities resisting and saying
"Enough". He is every minority who is now
beginning to speak and every majority that
must shut up and listen. He is every
untolerated group searching for a way to
speak. Everything that makes power and the
good consciences of those in power
uncomfortable -- this is Marcos."

- Sub-Comandante Insurgente Marcos







From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:54 EST 2001
Article: 258879 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net> <97ouue$3ri$1@news.tht.net> <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net> <97p8sj$60i$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 150
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:03:12 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983577672 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:01:12 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:01:12 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174771 soc.culture.israel:327857 soc.culture.usa:603454 alt.revisionism:870174 soc.culture.canada:258879 soc.culture.british:552667



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
> >I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
>
> On the other hand, you don't mind saying that 50% of American Jews are
> liars... interesting.
>
> >> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).

I was wrong the other day about the crazy group torturing a Palestinian.
When I am wrong I generally admit it.  Other than that, I would be in your debt
to show me the error of my ways.  I would bet you have no examples
(that you can document).
RLA

>
> >> B'nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> >> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor's behalf. If the
> >> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
> >>
> >
> >You want disburse not disberse.  B'nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
> >contribute to it.  There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
> >to see it.  If B'nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
> >funds.
>
> The point, Mr. Alexander, is that B'nai Brith does not provide my
> funding. I am not in the least surprised that you do not understand,
> but that's your problem, not mine. You made the false claim that
> Nizkor was funding by B'nai Brith, and I called you on it.
>

The point is that from your own statements, your money comes through B;nai
Brith.  I said, and I stand by it, if B'nai Brith didn't want you doing what you
do so well in your little corner of the Holocaust Industry, you would be out
tomorrow.
RLA

> Live with it, Bubba.

I notice that Mr. McVay cannot back up his assertions.  Indeed he can't deal with
any
point I raised.  One more time he defames me by asserting that I had
claimed that: "that 50% of American Jews are
liars... interesting."  /see above.  I had requested him to provide substantiation.
He didn't.  For the record, I do not believe Jews as a group are liars,
no substantial portion of them, certainly not half.  Now the Zionists on this
board are another matter.  These people lie for pastime, and propagate the
current party line as fervently as any Communist ever did their line.
I reproduce below the whol post that he has snipped.  the reader can see that
he has failed to take up the gauntlet, contenting himself iwth repeating
his defamatory falsehoods, and ending by calling me "Bubba",
which in the south means a good ol' boy, generally one of limited intelligence
though of good heart.  I understand it means an old woman in another
idiom.  In either case it is derogatory.   All I say is is that he can't debate.
I have come to despise him.
BTW, he didn't put up the allegedly wrong and embarrassing definition
of the Holocaust I supposedly put up either.  Maybe he will find
something, may be won't.  I bet he doesn't.  He is rather windy.
RLA




Mr McVay is a low life sort of person.
I regret getting into a piss fight with this skunk.
But Oh well.
Comments interspersed.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3A9FFE06.CFB939FA@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >This idiot McVay runs a small subsidiary of the Holocaust Industry, known
> >as Nizkor.
> >It has no means of making money that I know of, and so depends entirely on
> >contributions
> >from B'nai Brith Canada.  One of their efforts is "exposing" those who
>
> Sorry, Mr. Alexander, but that is incorrect (as usual, in your case).
> B'nai Brith Canada does not contribute to the Nizkor fund, it simply
> accepts donations and disberses funds on Nizkor's behalf. If the
> donations dry up, as they sometimes do, no funds are available.
>

You want disburse not disberse.  B'nai Brith could not exist if Jews did not
contribute to it.  There may be a point in there somewhere, but I fail
to see it.  If B'nai Brith did not want you to continue, it would shut off your
funds.
Period.
RLA

> >differ with the Holocaust Orthodoxy, which is sought to be made illegal to
> >argue with, and has so been made illegal
>
> The last time you defined this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander,
> you embarrassed yourself. Perhaps you would like to do so once again,
> and define it for your new readers.
>

Perhaps you would like to put up this alleged definition and explain what about
it is embarrassing to me.
RLA

>
> You might also reiterate your belief that 50% of American Jews are
> liars.. I'm sure folks would find that strange assertion of interest.
>

I might say that for the first time, but since I do not believe it, I will leave
it to you
to put up the alleged quote.
RLA

>
> >in Germany and France, and I believe in some other countries.  He is a real
> >piece of work.
> >I often disagree with Matt Giwer, but I find him rational and intelligent.
> >This is more than
> >I can say for McVay, for whom I have developed a fine contempt.
>
> Please do redefine this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander. I expect
> it will prove as embarrassing for you this time as it did the last.
>

Please put 'er up and we'll discuss her.  I look forward to it like a visit to
the dentist,
or to the surgeon, but I am game.
RLA

>
> Giwer?
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:54 EST 2001
Article: 258880 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA03B47.C3DE8995@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Bill Friend on Zionism and Judaism
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 617
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:31:03 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983579344 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:29:04 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:29:04 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174774 soc.culture.israel:327860 soc.culture.palestine:113052 soc.culture.usa:603466 soc.culture.british:552671 soc.culture.canada:258880

The ongoing conflict, that for practical purposes I will arbitrarily
state started in earnest on November 2, 1917 has been labeled in most
media as either "The Israeli-Arab Conflict" or the "Israeli-Palestinian
Conflict" or some variant on those two.   Quite often, one will find in
newspapers and journals in the Arab world and elsewhere, that this
conflict is referred to rather as "The Jewish-Arab Conflict" or the
"Jewish-Palestinian Conflict".

Aside from some articles, often cited by pro-Zionists, that occur from
time to time in the Arab press, which do resemble the classic
anti-semitic articles of 19th century European and American papers, such
as Henry Ford's Dearborn Independent, which was the first journal in N.
America to unabashedly publish the infamous forgery, The Protocols of
the Elders of Zion; quite often, "Jew" is substituted for "Israeli" when
discussing this "Hundred Years War".

Zionists will point to both the former and the latter as being
irrefutable proof that "the Arabs" are "anti-semitic".   Of course one
then gets into the silly debate, often initiated by Arabs, and most
famously once by Yassir Arafat, of "how can I be anti-semitic when I am
a semite?"   This of course is either entirely disingenous, or is an
honest misunderstanding of the word, anti-semite, which in fact was
coined by a 19th century German, who was in fact a Jew hater, and was
meant as a "polite society" term for someone who did in fact hate Jews,
for whatever reason that individual might entertain.   Of course those
in "polite society" in that century, often thought that the word "Jew"
itself was a pejorative, and so spoke of Jews as "people of the Hebrew
persuasion".   The absurdity of this phrase is obvious, although it has
carried over into the 21st century.  The official arm of the Reform
Judaism movement in N. America is The Union of American Hebrew
Congregations, the UAHC.  It's archaic sound to modern ears prompted a
petition at one of the UAHC semi-annual conventions, to have the name
upgraded to something more modern sounding.  I proposed "Jews R Us" but
it fell on either deaf or humorously compromised ears.

The question that is begged is, if when one hears an Arab youth, as I
did at a rally in Times Square, shout "Death to the Jews" is that person
referring to Jews as Jews (i.e, as members of the Judaic religion) or is
that person hurling that epithet from the context of the conflict in the
Middle East in which his reference point for what constitutes a Jew, is
a person who has been the cause of his subjugation in the area formerly
known as Palestine?

This question is a serious one, and not strictly a matter of semantics,
because since the beginning of Political Zionism formally begun at the
First Zionist Congress in Basel, Switzerland in August of 1897, there
has been the very real attempt by Zionists themselves to equate Zionism
with Judaism, and in fact have them be one and the same.

This notion reached its zenith after the United Nations General Assembly
passed Resolution 3379 on 10 November 1975.   The hue and cry that went
out defensively after that document was passed was that "ZIONISM EQUALS
JUDAISM!!!", and thus, Resolution 3379 was "anti-Semitic".
Parenthetically, one should also note that the attempt at equating
Zionism and Judaism was also made in a book of the period entitled "The
New Anti-Semitism" in which the authors stated rather frankly that when
one spoke of Zionists in a derogatory manner, one was in fact speaking
of Jews, and thus to be anti-Zionist was a "hidden" form of
anti-Semitism.    This proposition was successful for quite some time,
for anyone speaking out or "daring to speak out" against the policies of
Israel towards its non-Jewish inhabitants, based on very real
injustices, was often cowered or silenced by the charge of being
anti-Semitic.

This notion, of course is absurd on its face.  Criticism of any
sovereign state, based on its actions vis a vis its citizens and/or
resident aliens is certainly a legitimate endeavor. Iran, the
self-described "Islamic Republic" is roundly criticized, and rightly so,
for its many human abuses under its ruling clerics.  When one hears some
fundamentalist Christian such as Pat Robertson speak of the United
States as "a Christian Nation", a hue and cry go forth, and rightly so,
based on the wall of separation of church and state in the U.S. as
codified in the U.S. constitution, and defined by Thomas Jefferson.
Thus, it should not be surprising, that if Israel, by law, defines
itself as "The Jewish State", that some who are critical of its policies
attack "The Jews" for being the cause of their suppression.  But of
course, this is not polite.

It is important to note that UNGA 3379, never once has the word "Jew"
contained within it.  Moreover, as is commonly misstated, it does not
state that Zionism equals Racism, but rather that Zionism is a form of
Racism.  And yet the cry that went out after the passage of this
resolution in "the organized Jewish community" and repeated as a mantra,
was that Zionism equaled Judaism.

I quote portions of the  text of UNGA 3379 because it bears examination:


" The General Assembly,

Recalling its resolution 1904(XVIII) of 20 November 1963, proclaiming
the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial
Discrimination, and in particular its affirmation that "any doctrine of
racial differentiation or superiority is scientifically false, morally
condemnable (and) socially unjust and dangerous" and its expression of
alarm at "the manifestation of racial discrimination still in evience in
some areas of the world, some of which are imposed by certain
Governments by means of legislative, administrative and other measures,"
[ emph. mine]

Recalling also that in its resolution 3151 G (XXVIII) of 14 December
1973, the General Assembly condemned inter alia the unholy alliance
between South African racism and zionism,

Taking note of the declaration of Mexico on the Equality of Women...held
at Mexico City from 19 June 1975 to 2 July 1975, which promulgated the
principle that "international co-operation and peace require the
achievement of national liberation and independence, the elimination of
colonialism, and neocolonialism, foreign occupation, zionism, APARTHEID,
and racial discrimination in all its forms as well as the recognition of
the dignity of peoples and their right to self-determination,"

......

Taking note also of the Political Declaration....adopted at the
Conference of Ministers for Foreign Affairs of Non-Aligned Countries
held...from 25 to 30 August 1975, which most severely condemned zionism
as a threat to world peace and security and called upon all countries to
oppose this racist and imperialist ideology,

1. Determines that zionism is a form of racism and racial
discrimination."


There is not one mention of Judaism in this document, as one of the
worlds great religious doctrines, or to Jews who are defined as those
individuals who follow the religion of Judaism.  And yet over the course
of the years, Zionism has in fact co-opted rather successfully, the
practice of Judaism and in the minds of many individuals, such as World
Jewish Congress chairman, and head of the Seaman's Corp., Edgar
Bronfman; Zionism or Israel worship has replaced Judaism as their means
of self-identification as Jews.  Bronfman himself, a very powerful
individual within not only "the organized Jewish community" but within
the hierarchy of the World Zionist Organization/Jewish Agency, legally
an arm of the Government of Israel; has frankly admitted that he rarely
if ever steps foot inside a synagogue to observe the Judaic faith.

Now I need to be clear here, that I am not criticizing an individual for
choosing to not observe a particular faith into which they were born.
That is clearly a valid choice.  It is the fact that one has substituted
what has in practice become a racist ideology, for that religion, and
then proudly declare oneself a Jew AND a Zionist which gives me great
pause.

I again quote from the article by Rabbi Michael Lerner with regard to
the Zionist project:

"Yet Judaism has been one of the causalities of this project.  To the
extent that Judaism has lost its ability to critique the distortions of
the Jewish people, to the extent that it has become a cheerleader for a
particular state, its army, its fundraisers, and its ideological support
structure, Judaism has lost its connection to God and Torah.  Instead of
reclaiming its role as the voice of possibility, it has allowed itself
to be subsumed as a prop to a deeply flawed existing reality."
[emph.mine]  ( TIKKUN vol.13, no.2 Mar/Apr 1998 p. 35)

The spontaneous resurgence among Jews at a grassroots level, against
Zionism, similar to that which occurred among prominent Jews early in
the 20th century, typified by such various new groupings as Not In My
Name, Jews For Racial and Economic Justice, The Struggle, and others
arising in response to what is seen as a total perversion of Jewish
belief as personified by Israeli government policies, and their
supporters overseas is the palpable result of very real observations.
Again, citing Lerner;

" Many young Jews (who) visit Israel...are appalled by the lack of moral
sensitivity, the racism, and the absence of any larger spiritual
vision....
   Worse still, the transformation of American Judaism in the past fifty
years into a cheerleading chorus for whatever direction the Israeli
government has taken has caused major disaffection among the generation
of Jews who grew up after the Holocaust.  Growing up in a Jewish
community dominated by fundraisers and the rich, told that any questions
about Israel reflect a self-hating mentality, many younger Jews have
been forced to look elsewhere for a moral and spiritual alternative to
the ethos of...some institutions of the organized Jewish community.
    Israel and its cheerleaders have in fact become impediments to
Jewish continuity" (ibid.)

It is no secret that except in Orthodox Jewish communities, "organized
Judaism" in the form of synagogue or temple affiliation, or affiliation
with secular Jewish organizations has suffered from a loss of
membership, that in some cases has been precipitous.  Many
congregations, even in large Jewish communities such as those in the NY
Metro area have merged out of a need to pool overhead expenses.  The
reason of course, for this is the lack of ability to attract
congregants.  Now, some of this is the obvious result of a change in
demography, the retirement of some Jews to other states such as Florida
or other areas of the sunbelt.  Yet many young Jews who might want to
affiliate don't see the point, since many Synagogues are more engaged in
fealty to Zionism through fundraising events such as The United Jewish
Communities Pledge Drives or attendance at investment interests such as
Israel Bonds, rather than in an attendance to their "spiritual" needs,
however one cares to define that last term.

Moreover the unspoken rule of "omerta", not to criticize the state of
Israel in public, "lest the gentiles notice", has left many young
thoughtful Jews in a quandary.  If one chooses to speak out, one is
denegrated by epithets, therefore vote on this with your feet by
disaffiliating.  Many of the laws of the Zionist state of Israel, and
many of the common practices are entirely antinomial to any Jew raised
in the ideals of Western Democracy. Many find the current recidivism in
such denominations as Reform, which have entered a separatist phase; as
enumerated in the 1999 Declaration of Principles of the Central
Conference of American Rabbis (CCAR); abhorrent to their own core
beliefs as to what Judaism ought to be about.  That these laws have been
directly responsible for repression of a native people is, at least to
this writer, the most abhorrent thing of all, because it goes against
the most fundamental premise of Judaism which is, "Choose life", the
lesson of the founding myth, The Akida, the "Binding of Isaac".

The current generation of Jews is seeing made manifest, what their
great-grandparents predicted,

" The oppression of the Palestinians has persisted, and the anger of the
world's peoples at the Jewish people's insensitivity is growing (when we
wake up to this in the 21st century, will we then revert to explanations
that talk about the 'inherent anti-Semitism of the non-Jew,' or will we
be willing to recognize that Israel, speaking in the name of THE JEWISH
PEOPLE, has been pursuing policies that would rightly anger the morally
sensitive throughout the world?)" (ibid.)

Twenty-three years ago, this writer was pointedly told by Rabbi Elmer
Berger, the long time executive director of The American Council for
Judaism - the oldest and still existing anti-Zionist secular Jewish
organization - "now that you know the truth, keep it to yourself or you
will be ostracized". He told this to me because I was a young man
starting out in my profession and he did not wish to see me ruined.  He
had seen this done to others who dared to speak out.   I had asked him
why he was able to do so, even though he was personna non grata to the
"organized Jewish community", and he remarked that he was fortunately,
independently wealthy.

For many years, I kept my own council, and then as more and more of the
violations of human rights, and outright atrocities perpetrated by the
state of Israel, in the name of Jews, became more publicized and more
manifest, I found other Jews finally coming out, as did prior, more
clear eyed generations of Jews did , against this perversion of not only
Jewish morals, but universal morals.

The most trenchant of these criticisms, which strikes at the heart of
every Jew who remembers the Nazi genocide; and everyone should remember
the Nazi genocide; is contained in an essay in the book Walking The Red
Line- Israelis in Search of Justice For Palestine, publ.New Society
Publishers 1992.  The title of the essay is "Living Comfortably with
Taboos" by Gabi Nitzan-Ginsberg.   I feel compelled to discuss this
article at length for two reasons; (a) it happens to be very truthful
with regard to what the philosophy of Zionism has done with regard to
how Israel functions under its engine, and (b) people now throw the word
"fascism" around rather freely, since the election of the war criminal,
Ariel Sharon as the new Prime Minister.

Gabi Nitzan-Ginsburg was born in Israel in 1964 of Argentinian parents.
His grandparents had moved to South America, after the Nazi holocaust
against the Jews of Europe, being one of the few survivors of their
extended family.  He describes his family as very Zionist, his father
having worked for the Jewish Federation. Mr. Ginsburg was drafted into
the IDF in 1982 during the Lebanon War.  In 1989 he founded an
organization called Red Light whose purpose was to stop police brutality
against Palestinian workers in Israel.

" The volunteer hotline answered calls every night, from young
Palestinians who were beaten, tortured or abused. Red Light went with
them to police stations (to complain against policement) and to
hospitals, to give legal advice.  Red Light's sudden exposure of so much
brutality created a public lobby against police violence.  For the first
time, the police found themselves prosecuted in court for beating up
Palestinians." (Walking The Red Line, p.38)

The heart of his essay is a sentence which Gabi writes in the memory of
his relatives lost in the Nazi genocide, and with the hope that his
children will not have a reason to "write such a thing".  The statement
is:

"There is a similarity between Nazi Germany and Israel".

The essay, "Living Comfortably with Taboos" discusses the tabla blanca
used by the State of Israel, and indeed by Jewish organizations raising
funds for the Zionist cause; as a pretext for the justification of the
suppression of the Palestinians;

" We, the Jewish nation living in Israel, have a taboo under whose
protection we are able to ignore widely accepted moral codes....The
Shoah (Holocaust)."

He states that this taboo prevents (or has up to now prevented) Jews
>from an inward criticism of the obvious loss of a moral anchor.  The
social axiom in operation is that "the Germans...were loathsome
monsters, and the Jews were --and still are, by nature--innocent...and
harmless sheep..the ultimate, eternal Victim."

He does not bother delving into this notion as the raison d'etre for
every Holocaust Museum built in the world, especially Yad Vashem, The
Holocaust Museum on the Mall in Washington D.C., or the "Museum of
Living Jewish History" in lower Manhattan.  For a complete discussion of
this phenomenon, I would recommend the reader refer to two well written
books:

(1) The Holocaust in American Life by Peter Novick, publ. Houghton
Miflin and co. 1999
(2) The Holocaust Industry-Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish
Suffering by Norman Finkelstein, publ. Verso 2000

Admittedly, Ginsburg wrote the seminal sentence above for shock value,
since;

"Even when the Ultimate Victims violently conquer, blindly exile, kill
women and children, loot, burn, oppress, and destroy, they still remain
The Victim...they have suffered so much for so long that they have
unlimited credit. The world owes us infinite reparations..."

In fact, Ginsburg does not really believe Israelis are Nazis, he
believes that there are lines of similarity among all oppressive nations
of the world.  He holds the Nazis up as the standard bearer in this
regard; but lists among the oppressors, the French in Algeria, the
Afrikaaners, the whites in native America, the British in India, the
Russians in Afghanistan, and even the ancient Greeks and Romans.

This writer quite often hears, upon being critical of the state of
Israel, the retort, "but look what you Americans did to the Indians, you
have no right to criticize us."  My reply to that is that yes, what was
done to the Native Americans was one of the great horrors in history,
but that does not justify any silence because another injustice is being
committed in full view in this century.  More so, that this injustice is
being committed in my name, as someone who self identifies as a Jew.
For Israel does not call itself "The Zionist State".  Israel calls
itself "The Jewish State", and by virtue of its laws, as previously
discussed, it is.

"The lines of similarity between us and those listed oppressors are
worrying. More so when it comes to Nazi Germany after we have seen there
is no absolute human red line, no finite moral border, no preset boiling
point, no proven critical mass." , writes Ginsburg.

He lists the ingredients of similarity as follows:
(1) Racism
(2) Population unrest
(3) Territorial expansionism (known in Nazi Germany as "lebensraum",
literally "breathing room")
(4) The presence of a weak alienated group
(5) Megalomania
(6) Dehumanization of the victim (although written a decade before the
murder of Muhammad al-Durrah, the picture of whose death in the arms of
his father made front page world headlines, it should be noted that the
IDF tried to spin the occurance as having been the victim's own fault!
One has also read currently the obscene notion that Palestinian parents
deliberately place their pre-teens on the "front lines" so as to
"martyr" them.)
(7) A majority of an indifferent population (only 59% of all eligible
voters in Israel recently voted in the election for PM between the war
criminal, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Barak.  Ariel Sharons, "overwhelming
landslide" as spun in the corporate media around the world was actually
the receipt of 62.8% of that 59% who bothered to vote.  Doing the math,
one notes that only 37% of all eligible voters in Israel voted for
Sharon.)
(8) A stirring of paranoia parallel to demonization of the victim.
(Recent reports: Israel plans to "take back" the West Bank.  The unasked
question of course is when had it been "given up"?)
(9) A tolerant attitude towards racist/nationalistic violence.
(10) A fictitious judicial system with regard to the captive population.

(11) Suppression of free speech.

The problem is not that "Israel has lost its way", as some writers have
been seen to bemoan, but that under the philosophy of political Zionism,
which now has lethally taken on religious overtones (which had been done
through symbolism since the beginning; with the adoption of the Zionist
flag of the Zionist Organization, which is now the Israeli flag,
deliberately resembling in color and design the traditional prayer
shawl, with the religious symbol of the Mogen David in its center.) with
so-called, "religious Zionists" such as the fanatics seen in illegal
settlements exemplified by Kiryat Arba.    At the turn of the century,
Theodor Herzl wrote, "we shall spirit the penniless population across
the border".  This was in his diaries which were not to be published
until twenty years after his death.  Unfortunately he did not expect to
die, prematurely, at the age of forty, and so his private racist
notions, which he denied to the world, were made manifest in the
Twenties.  But a spokesman for the Gush Emunim (Block of the Faithful)
who inhabit Kiryat Arba settlement just outside Hebron is not so
reticent.  Meir Indor has stated:

" The Arabs must know that there is a master here, the Jewish people.
It rules over Eretz Israel. The Arabs are temporary dwellers who happen
to live in the country.  There are commandments in the Bible concerning
such temporary dwellers and we should act accordingly." (al-Hamishmar 8
Feb.1980, cited on p. 870 Vol.II, Encylopedia of the Palestine Problem,
Issa Nakhleh)

One can easily point to specific incidents with regard to the above
ingredients delineated by Ginsburg, and some things do occur to a higher
degree than others.  However, what is remarkable is that all of what has
come to pass, was predicted, by Jews fighting against the intrusion of
Political Zionism into the Jewish world, as early as 1916; and most
famously by Lord Edwin Montagu, Viceroy to India and the only Jewish
member of the British cabinet at that time.   The records of the British
Cabinet, from 1915-1920; the period encompassing the Balfour Declaration
and the beginnings of the Paris Peace Talks in which that document was
included as part of the British Mandate for Palestine under the League
of Nations, were made public in 1970.
  Montagu had circulated a memorandum dated 23 August 1917 to other
members of the cabinet with regard to the impending release of the
document which has come to be known as The Balfour Declaration.  He
titled this inter alia memorandum, remarkably, "The Anti-Semitism of the
Present Government", and it was marked "Secret".  [ The Zionist
Connection, by Alfred M. Lilienthal, publ. Dodd-Mead 1978 p. 737 ff.].
  In his letter, Montagu accused the cabinet members (and thus His
Majesty's Government) of using political goals to achieve victory, as
well as divest Britain of its Jews all in one swoop.

  "This nation will presumably be formed of Jewish Russians, Jewish
Englishmen, Jewish Roumanians, Jewish Bulgarians, and Jewish citizens of
all nations - survivors of relations of those who have fought or laid
down their lives for different countries which I have mentioned, at a
time when the three years that they lived through [ fighting for their
respective countries in "The Great War", WWI].
   Zionism has always seemed to me to be a mischievous political
creed....I have always understood that those who indulged in this creed
were largely animated by the restrictions upon and refusal of liberty to
Jews in Russia.  But at the very time when these Jews have been
acknowledged as Jewish Russians and given all liberties [ under the new
Soviet government - well they were given about the same liberties as
everyone else in the Soviet Union - Z ], it seems to be inconceivable
that Zionism should be officially recognized by the British Government,
and that Mr. Balfour should be authorized to say that Palestine was to
be reconstituted as the "national home of the Jewish people." I do not
know what this involves, but  assume that it means that Mohammedans and
Christians are to make waqy for the Jews, and that Jews should be put in
all positions of preference and should be peculiarly associated with
Palestine in the same way that England is with the English or France
with the French, that Turks and other Mohammedans in Palestine will be
regarded as foreigners...."

Decrying exclusivism, Montagu continued,

" I deny that Palestine is today assciated with the Jews.  It is quite
true that Palestine plays a large part in Jewish history, but so it does
in modern Mohammedan history, and, after the time of the Jews, surely it
plays a larger part than any other country in Christian history.  The
Temple may have been in Palestine, but so was the Sermon on the Mount
and the Crucifixion.  I would not deny to Jews in Palestine, equal
rights to colonization with those who profess other religions, but a
religious test of citizenship seems to me to be only admitted by those
who take a bigoted and narrow view of one particular epoch of the
history of Palestine, and claim for the Jews a position to which they
are not entitled.",

caustically, and cleverly,

" I am not the least surprised that the non-Jews of England may welcome
this policy." [ ibid. all quotes from Lilienthal]

Other vehement Jewish opposition to Zionism was manifest in the United
States.  In March of 1919 Rep. Julius Kahn (R.-Ca.), the first Jewish
member of the United States House of Representatives, presented to
President Woodrow Wilson, at the Paris Peace Conference in Versailles, a
petition opposing Zionism.  This document was signed by two hundred and
ninety-nine prominent American Jews from all over the U.S. The committee
directly responsible for the document consisted of thirty one prominent
Jews of the period. Notable for the time was that there were no women
signatories. The full text of the Memorandum was published in the New
York Times on 5 March 1919.

The thirty-one:

(1) Congressman Julius Kahn, San Francisco Ca., ranking Republican on
the Military Affairs Committee
(2) Ambassador Henry Morgenthau,  former U.S. Ambassador to Turkey
(3) Simon Rosendale, Attorney General, State of NY, founder of the
Jewish Publication Society
(4) Simon Wolf, former U.S. Consul in Egypt, and representative of B'nai
B'rith (oldest Jewish fraternal organization in the U.S. - Literally,
"Sons of the Covenant") in D.C. who " opposed governmental attempts to
identify Jews as a group and was vociferous in denying Zionist
aspirations, a matter in which he claimed assurances from President
Wilson."
(5) Max Senior, 1st Pres. of the National Conf. of Jewish Charities
(6) Lee M. Friedman, Attorney, Boston - Pres. Amer.Jewish Historical
Soc.
(7) Judge Seligman J. Strauss, Court of Common Pleas, Wilkes Barre, Pa.
(8) Morris Jastrow, Jr. Professor of Semitic Languages, U. of Pa,
University Librarian, Author of over 200 books and articles on Semitic
languages, religions, and literature, and on contemporary political
questions.
(9) Rabbi Henry Berkowitz - 1st Sec. of the Central Conference of
American Rabbis (CCAR - Reform Movement)
(10) Rabbi David Philipson - founder and past Pres. CCAR
(11) Edward Max Baker - Pres. Cleveland Stock Exchange
(12) L. H. Kempner - Mayor, Galveston, Texas
(13) Jesse Isidor Straus - President, MACY'S Dept.Store, U.S. Ambassador
to France
(14) Edwin R.A. Seligman - Prof. Political Economy and Finance, Columbia
U.
(15) Jacob H. Hollander- Prof. Political Economics, Johns Hopkins U.
(16) Adolph S. Ochs - Publisher of The New York Times
(17) Lessing Rosenthal- Attny, Pres.Civil Service Reform Assn. of
Chicago, Trustee-The Brookings Inst., Trustee, Johns Hopkins U.
(18) Abraham Kochland-Boston
(19) Jacob R. Morse- Attny., Boston
(20) Daniel Peixotto Hays- Head of the NYC Municipal Civil Service
Commission. Exec Comm. Union of American Hebrew Congregations (UAHC -
Reform), Trustee and Sec. Jewish Publication Soc., Pres. YMHA
(21) Louis Stern - Pres. Council of Jewish Federations and Welfare Funds

(22) Rabbi William Rosenau - President of the CCAR, member of the board
of Governors, Hebrew Union College
(23)Rabbi William Landsberg - Rochester, NY
(24) Judge M.C. Shloss - San Francisco
(25) Julius Rosenstein, M.D. - Surgeon, Mt.Zion Hsptl. San Francisco
(26) Isais Wolf Hellman- founder, Union Trust Co. L.A. One of three
contributors of land for the U. of Southern Cal. Member of the board of
regents U. of Cal. for 37 years.
(27) Judge Josiah Cohen- Court of Common Pleas, Pittsburgh; life trustee
of the Carnegie Inst.; founder of the UAHC, director of the Federation
of Jewish Charities
(28) Justice Horace Stern - Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the
State of Pa.; trustee U. of P.; V.P. Jewish Publication Society of
America.
(29) Julius W. Freiberg - Cincinatti Charter Commission, past president
UAHC.
(30) Rabbi Abraham Simon - organizer of the Washington, D.C. chap of the
National Conference of Chritians and Jews, past pres. of the CCAR and
founder of the Synagogue Council of America
(31) Isaac Wolfe Bernheim -distiller and philanthropist. Louisville Ky.

[ Encylopedia of the Palestine Problem p. 1025-6 Vol.II  - a full
listing of all signatories appears on pages 1026-1029  as was printed in
The Jewish Review and Observer, Cleveland Ohio, March 14, 1919. For the
full text of the statement see Nakleh, Encylopedia of the Palestine
Problem, Chapter 41, Vol II ppgs.1023-1025]


All of those people, who had the foresight to see what problems
Political Zionism would create, were responding as Jews.  They were
responding to what they saw as the creation of a perversion of what it
meant to be a Jew, and the subsequent redefinition of a Jew.
Unfortunately because of a lack of an aggressive organization opposed to
the Zionists, the virtual complete co-optation of Judaism by Political
Zionism became completed at the Biltmore Conference held in NYC in 1941,
which was attended by leading pro-Zionist rabbis, Stephen M. Wise and
Abba Hillel Silver; as well as WZO head Chaim Weizmann and leader of the
Yishuv (the Jewish Community in Palestine), David Ben-Gurion.

Zionism has never lost its way or its bearings.  It has proceeded with
its program, apace, to take over all of what was once Arab Palestine.
The late Rabbi Meyer Kahane, almost universally denounced, and rightly
so, as a racist; was not an original thinker.  If one examines his two
books, one notes how remarkably similar his words are to Vladimir Ze'ev
Jabotinsky, the founder of Revisionist Zionism, and direct mentor of
Menachem Begin, Avram Stern (the founder of LEHI, better known as The
Stern Gang), and YItzhak Shamir; and spiritual mentor to Benjamin
Netanyahu, and Ariel Sharon.

It is a telling and interesting piece of trivia to note that there are
more places in Israel named after Jabotinsky than there are after David
Ben-Gurion or any other Zionist leader.

It was Jabotinsky who was the first to be brutally honest about the
Zionist project:

" Of course the Arabs would not welcome a Jewish colonization of the
Holy Land, he said. Why should they?  He recognised as much as any Arab
the illogic of the Balfour Declaration's claim that the homeland should
be established without prejudicing the civil or religious rights of the
existing inhabitants.  That could not be.  The Arabs themselves must
recognize this.  And, since they were not likely to hand over their land
without a firght, they must be fought for it.  Even after the Balfour
Declaration, not only did the Zionists still hesitate publicly to
advocate a Jewish majority in Palestine. To Jabotinsky this too was
nonsense.  The vision of Zion could only be realised with a Jewish
majority, as soon as possible.  AND HE RECOGNIZED THAT THIS MEANT THE
USE OF FORCE."  ( The Controversy of Zion-Jewish Nationalism, the Jewish
State, and the Unresolved Jewish Dilemma by Geoffrey Wheatcroft, publ.
Addison Wesley 1996 p. 174)

It has become apparent to many Jews in the current generation that this
state created as a result of 19th Century Utopianism, Western
Imperialism and Colonialism, two international bodies which created laws
to justify this takeover of Palestine ; is antinomial to their very
being in what they consider to be an appropriate "Jewish" way to act
towards ones fellow human.  In recognizing this, these Jews have sought
the guidance of their great grandparents, their antecedents; having
freed themselves from the fog of knowledge obscured by the Nazi
holocaust against the Jews of Europe.  The highest Jewish doctrines are
these;
"Choose Life" (Chai) and "Do not do unto others, that which is hateful
to yourself, that is the entire Torah, all the rest is commentary."
Under these conditions, Zionism and its creation, The state of Israel,
is decidedly un-Jewish.

Dr. Bill Friend
2 March 2001

" NONE BUT THE MEMBERS OF THE NATION MAY BE CITIZENS OF THE STATE. NONE
BUT THOSE OF GERMAN BLOOD, WHATEVER THEIR CREED, MAY BE MEMBERS OF THE
NATION. NO JEW, THEREFORE, MAY BE A MEMBER OF THE NATION." - ADOLF
HITLER - MEIN KAMPF

The irreducible equation is this - You stole their land, they want it
back.


"If I lose the light of the sun, I will write by candelight,
 moonlight, no light.
 If I lose paper and ink, I will write in blood on forgotten walls
 I will write always
 I will capture nights all over the world and bring them to you."

===============================================

If anyone wonders why I repost the work of others, here is the reason.
There is always some silver tongued wordsmith who can marshal facts,
and put them to the keyboard so eloquently as to bring tears to your
eyes,
while I write very pedestrianly.
Thank God for people like Dr. Friend.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:55 EST 2001
Article: 258881 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA03CD3.32BE4828@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.palestine
Subject: Restraint?  Letter to the globe and Mail
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 32
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:37:39 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news2.atl 983579739 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:35:39 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 19:35:39 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174775 soc.culture.israel:327861 soc.culture.canada:258881 soc.culture.usa:603468 soc.culture.palestine:113053

The Globe and Mail | March  2, 2001

Letters | This is 'restraint'?

By Steve Gowans

Ottawa --  If Uri Dromi thinks that Ehud Barak showed restraint in
dealing
with the latest Palestinian uprising (Israeli Unity Is A Myth -- March
1),
he might renew his acquaintance with Mr. Webster's dictionary. Restraint

doesn't include helicopter gunships that fire missiles at cars or into
apartment buildings. It doesn't include indiscriminate shelling of
Palestinian towns, or laying villages to siege. Nor does it include
gunshots to the heads of stone-throwing youths, extrajudicial
assassinations, or any of the acts that compelled the UN to censure
Israel
for the disproportionate use of force. It doesn't include acts that
border
on war crimes, as Amnesty International warned about; nor does it
include
the indiscriminate use of force, as Human Rights Watch condemned Israel
for, and it doesn't cover systematic human-rights violations, about
which
the international YMCA expressed concern.

The only way Mr. Barak may have been restrained is in comparison to what

Ariel Sharon might do. That is truly chilling. 




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:55 EST 2001
Article: 258886 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net> <97p8sj$60i$1@news.tht.net> <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net> <97pimj$7l0$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 72
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 20:13:47 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.134
X-Trace: news1.atl 983585507 208.63.206.134 (Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:11:47 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:11:47 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174785 soc.culture.israel:327869 soc.culture.usa:603501 alt.revisionism:870231 soc.culture.canada:258886 soc.culture.british:552700



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> [I said]
>
> >> The point, Mr. Alexander, is that B'nai Brith does not provide my
> >> funding. I am not in the least surprised that you do not understand,
> >> but that's your problem, not mine. You made the false claim that
> >> Nizkor was funding by B'nai Brith, and I called you on it.
>
> >The point is that from your own statements, your money comes through B;nai
> >Brith.  I said, and I stand by it, if B'nai Brith didn't want you doing what you
> >do so well in your little corner of the Holocaust Industry, you would be out
> >tomorrow.
>
> Switching horses, Mr. Alexander? First you claimed that B'nai Brith
> Canada "funded" Nizkor. That, as I pointed out, is not true. Now you
> appear to be shifting ground.
>
> Why is that, Mr. Alexander? Is it that you are hoping no one will
> notice?
>
> You made a false claim. You were called on it. Live with it.
>

I said that Jews gave money to B'nai Brith.  They exist on it.  Some of
that money they give to you.  If they decide they don't want you to
continue with your crazy project, they will stop the funding.
That looks to me like control.  You assert that some of the money
they collect is earmarked for your project.  That may be true,
but I would guess that much of that is guided by B'nai Brith.
Since they aren't going to open their books, I can't do more.
RLA

>
> By the way, Mr. Alexander... The United Church (British Columbia) once
> processed my funding.. do you suppose there was a "Christian
> conspiracy" to maintain your "Holocaust Orthodoxy?"
>
> What _is_ this "Holocaust Orthodoxy," Mr. Alexander?  Is it
> "protected" by the United Church?
>
> How about the Roman Catholic foundation that supported my work in
> 1997-1998, Mr. Alexander? Were they part of a Zionist conspiracy too?
>
> It is to laugh.
>

The reader will notice that McVay does not here as he did not before
deal with the other issues that he raised, like my having said that
50 % of American Jews are liars.  I never said any such rubbish.
Notice that he snips everything else, when I had laboriously gone and gotten
my original reply, and challenge.  He is truly sucks. Of  course,
he is also lying.

On the issue of support by Christians, this is not unreasonable, given
their feelings about the holocaust.  I have the same feelings.  The notion
that any country could and would imprison and starve, and otherwise
kill an entire religious or whatever group is nauseous to me.  For many
years I couldn't look at a German person without thinking how could
a nation so intelligent go so crazy.  Now I look at the Israelis the same
way.
RLA





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:55 EST 2001
Article: 258933 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA12CC4.B16AE457@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians over last 24 hours
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 147
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 11:41:24 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news3.atl 983641153 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:39:13 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:39:13 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174816 soc.culture.israel:327914 soc.culture.usa:603736 soc.culture.canada:258933 soc.culture.british:552807

Israeli attacks on Palestinian civilians over last 24 hours

>From LAW

3 March 2001

In the past 24 hours, the Israeli forces have escalated their attacks on

Palestinian civilians. They have tightened the siege imposed on the
Palestinian towns, especially Ramallah and el Bireh, where they have
placed
more barricades on the roads connecting Jalazone refugee camp, Dura el
Kari’
a, and Ein Yabroud with Ramallah and el Bireh. The Israeli forces’
escalation of attacks have resulted in the killing of three Palestinians

during the last 24 hours. A fourth has died of wounds of an earlier
shooting. Apparently in all four cases, those killed had not been taking

part in any demonstrations or clashes and were not posing any threat to
Israeli soldiers or settlers when they were killed.

Obai Daraj, 9 years old, killed
On Friday, 2 March, Israeli forces stationed at Psagot settlement
reportedly
opened fire at Palestinian residential areas in el Bireh hitting
9-year-old
Obai Daraj in the chest. Based on LAW Society’s documentation, the
Palestinian boy was hit while in his bedroom on the 4th floor of the
building, which his family has recently moved to. The boy died on
arrival at
Ramallah state hospital.

Abdul Kareem Abu Asba, 23 years old, killed
On 2 March, Friday afternoon, clashes broke out in Kalandia. Abdul
Kareem
Abu Asba (23) from Kalandia refugee camp was reportedly shot while
coming
home after shopping from a nearby grocery store. Abu Asba died on
arrival at
Ramallah state hospital.

Mustafa el Ramlawi, 42 years old, killed
On 2 March, Friday morning, Israeli soldiers in Natsarim junction
reportedly
fired an artillery shell at a mentally handicapped Palestinian named
Mustafa
el Ramlawi (42) from el Braij refugee camp hitting him in the face. They

then shot him in the head and the left leg. According to information
gathered by LAW, el Ramlawi left his house on Thursday March 1, in the
evening, carrying a sack on his back. On Friday morning, while
attempting to
cross Natsarim junction, Israeli soldiers shot him dead from a distance
of
100 meters.

Mohammad Halas, 13 years old, killed
13-year-old Mohammad Halas from el Shajaiyi was pronounced dead at el
Shifa’
a hospital in Gaza of wounds sustained on 27 February 2001. Halas was
said
to have been shot in the head in an unprovoked incident by Israeli
soldiers
at el Mintar crossing east of Gaza.

Excessive use of force in demonstration near el Bireh
Israeli soldiers reportedly fired rubber coated steel bullets and two
gray-colored missiles said to have contained highly concentrated gas at
demonstrators in the clashes that broke out on Friday, 2 March,  near
the
City Inn Hotel, north of el Bireh. 34-year-old Kisra Yaseen suffered a
severe case of gas inhalation and spasm. Ramallah hospital medical
sources
reported that this type of gray-colored missile was similar to that,
which
Israeli forces used against Palestinians in Khan Yunis.

Medical personnel injured
The following paramedics of the Palestinian Medical Relief Committees
were
wounded:
·       Nasir Jamjoum (32) hit by a steel bullet in the mouth, which
broke
his teeth
·       Riham Juma’a (18) hit by a rubber coated steel bullet in the
left
shoulder
·       Arafat Zayid (18) hit by a rubber coated steel bullet in the
left
foot
·       Rami Abu Dayi (20) hit by a rubber coated steel bullet in the
head

Excessive use of force during demonstration in Deir Nitham
The following Palestinians, and Palestinian protesters were wounded on
Friday when Israeli forces broke into the village of Deir Nitham, west
of
Ramallah:

·       Imad el Tamimi (44) a paramedic, hit by a rubber coated steel
bullet
in the left leg
·       Zeid Faraj (25) shrapnel wounds in the left hand
·       Mohammad Mis’ad (41) shot in the right thigh and arm
·       Ahmad Yacoub (10) hit by a rubber coated steel bullet in the
left
thigh
·       Mohammad Faraj Mohammad (8) hit by a rubber coated steel bullet
in
the right jaw
·       Anan Abdullah (10) hit by a rubber coated steel bullet in the
pelvis

*Shelling of el Barazeel: Children injured

On 2 March, Friday evening, Israeli forces are said to have shelled el
Barazeel quarter in Rafah wounding Mohammad Kishta (6) and Mukhtar
Barbakh
(11) in the legs and arms.


****************************************************************************

 LAW -The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the

Environment is a non-governmental organisation dedicated to preserving
human
rights through legal advocacy.
LAW is affiliate to the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ),
Fédération Internationale des Ligues de Droits de l’Homme (FIDH), World
Organisation Against Torture (OMCT) and Member of the Euro-
Mediterranean
Human Rights Network

==========================================
Mustafa el Ramlawi.  Israel knew this man and knew he wasn't planting
a bomb, and killed him.  Then they tried to get international sympathy
by falsely claiming that he was planting a bomb.
How scummy can you get?  Stay tuned, and we'll see.
Israel also claimed that the death of Mohammed alDura was his own
or his father's fault.  In reality, Israeli troops targeted them for
about
a half hour finally killing the boy and severly injuring the father.
RLA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:56 EST 2001
Article: 258935 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!feeder.qis.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA12E6E.628C5301@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net> <97pimj$7l0$1@news.tht.net> <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net> <97pmb9$873$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 74
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 11:48:31 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news3.atl 983641579 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:46:19 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:46:19 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174817 soc.culture.israel:327915 soc.culture.usa:603745 alt.revisionism:870491 soc.culture.canada:258935 soc.culture.british:552811



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> Switching horses, Mr. Alexander? First you claimed that B'nai Brith
> >> Canada "funded" Nizkor. That, as I pointed out, is not true. Now you
> >> appear to be shifting ground.
> >>
> >> Why is that, Mr. Alexander? Is it that you are hoping no one will
> >> notice?
> >>
> >> You made a false claim. You were called on it. Live with it.
>
> >I said that Jews gave money to B'nai Brith.  They exist on it.  Some of
>
> No, Mr. Alexander. You said that Nizkor was funded by B'nai Brith
> Canada, and that is not true.
>
> >that money they give to you.  If they decide they don't want you to
> >continue with your crazy project, they will stop the funding.
>
> They cannot stop the funding, Mr. Alexander, although they could stop
> managing it for me. It would take perhaps 5 minutes to move the fund
> to another organization.
>
> >That looks to me like control.  You assert that some of the money
> >they collect is earmarked for your project.  That may be true,
>
> ALL of the money that goes to the Nizkor fund GOES to the Nizkor fund,
> Mr. Alexander. B'nai Brith has no control over that. Whether you
> believe it or not is of no interest to me. After all, your reputation
> as a Jew-baiter and antisemite precedes you.
>

You are a smear artist, par excellence.  I am neither a Jewbaiter nor
an anitsemite.  I oppose Zionist oppression of Palestinians, which
bothers you not at all.  You are like alot of Zionist sympathizers,
all of the ones I have dealt with in fact.  You equate antiZionism
with antisemitism.

> As to control, perhaps I should explain something to you - something
> many others have learned to their great disappointment. I cannot BE
> "controlled," and Nizkor isn't going anywhere, with or without
> organizational support.
>
> Live with it, pal. I'm the most ferociously independent sob you'll
> ever confront, and Nizkor's here to stay, period. Nizkor existed long
> before the Jewish community discovered it, and it will remain
> regardless of _who_ supports it or does not support it.
>
> >but I would guess that much of that is guided by B'nai Brith.
> >Since they aren't going to open their books, I can't do more.
>
> But they have opened their books, Mr. Alexander. The federal
> government has been through them with a fine toothed comb. That you
> aren't sufficiently informed is your problem, not mine.
>
> Do you still assert that half of America's Jews are liars, Mr.
> Alexander?
>

I notice once again that you as a consummate smear artist, have
not brought forth any evidence that I ever asserted that.  You
are not only a liar, but a defamer.  The Big Lie was a technique
of the Nazis.  You appear to have learnt it well.
RLA

> -



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:56 EST 2001
Article: 258937 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA13033.D2FE38@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>  <3A9FFA6A.1363C5DD@bellsouth.net>  <3AA017FC.541C3A96@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 42
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 11:56:03 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983642031 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:53:51 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:53:51 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174819 soc.culture.israel:327918 soc.culture.usa:603755 soc.culture.canada:258937 soc.culture.british:552812

One more time, jerk, Israel is the aggressor.  You know that,
you aren't stupid, but you continue to put forth these oneliners
claiming that the Palestinians are at fault for your aggression.
That makes you extraordinarily intellectually dishonest.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Your diversion, that is.
>
> We are not your dhimmies, you fuckwit.
> When we are shot at, we shoot back.
>
> Get used to it.
>
> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > You saw and snipped the point.
> > RLA
> >
> > Omri Schwarz wrote:
> >
> > > Roger Alexander  writes:
> > >
> > > > And the farmer hauled another load away.  This is quintessential Zionist
> > > > rhetoric.
> > > It is the truth.
> > >
> > > Beit Jalla is a sniper's nest, hence the shelling.
> > > --
> > > Omri Schwarz ---
> > > Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> > > "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> > > patient." -- R.F. Farr
> >
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:56 EST 2001
Article: 258938 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA130DD.4E612AB0@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In   
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3AA01942.B2ACBDB1@bellsouth.net> <97p8sj$60i$1@news.tht.net> <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net> <97pimj$7l0$1@news.tht.net> <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 11:58:53 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983642201 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:56:41 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:56:41 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174820 soc.culture.israel:327919 soc.culture.usa:603756 alt.revisionism:870493 soc.culture.canada:258938 soc.culture.british:552813

No, jerk, they aren't.  The B;'nai Brith in the US is an evil
organization.
Their offshoot, the ADL, has carried on a campaign of intimidation,
defamation, and assorted other crimes and torts which is scary.
Many posts pointing this out have been put up here, and I am sure you
had an opportunity to see them.  If not, I can get some of them and
put them up for you.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> >
> > I said that Jews gave money to B'nai Brith.  They exist on it.
>
> Roger, one seldom succeeds in curing you
> of your chronic ignorance, but I'll give
> it the old college try.
>
> Bnai Brith is the Jewish version of
> the Knights of Columbus.
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:57 EST 2001
Article: 258939 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA1315B.A30B480@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In  
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <97p8sj$60i$1@news.tht.net> <3AA034BF.DCA64F67@bellsouth.net> <1cWn6.3168$iu4.16402520@news2.tor.primus.ca> <97ptrm$9nr$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:00:59 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983642327 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:58:47 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 12:58:47 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174821 soc.culture.israel:327920 soc.culture.usa:603757 alt.revisionism:870494 soc.culture.canada:258939 soc.culture.british:552814



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> [Roger "I'm not an antisemite, I just hate Jews" Alexander wrote}
>
> >> point I raised.  One more time he defames me by asserting that I had
> >> claimed that: "that 50% of American Jews are
> >> liars... interesting."  /see above.  I had requested him to provide
> >substantiation.
> >> He didn't.  For the record, I do not believe Jews as a group are liars,
> >> no substantial portion of them, certainly not half.  Now the Zionists on
> >this
> > board are another matter.  These people lie for pastime, and propagate the
>
> Precisely, Mr. Alexander. I once asked you to tell me how many Jews
> YOU thought were "Zionists."
>
> You asserted that 50% of American Jews were Zionists.
>
> Ergo, by your own definition, 50% of American Jews are liars.
>
> Hoist by your own petard, eh, Mr. Alexander?
>
> You are such a transparent ass.

Fifty per cent of American Jews do not put forth lies like the ones seen
on this board.  RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:57 EST 2001
Article: 258947 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA147EA.585BC369@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Gush Shalom ad March 1 :  STATE TERRORISM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 45
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 13:37:14 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983648102 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:35:02 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:35:02 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174832 soc.culture.israel:327931 soc.culture.usa:603789 soc.culture.canada:258947 soc.culture.british:552840

 STATE TERRORISM

The government that is about to be formed will be a war government
dominated
by the triangle Sharon-Mofaz-Peres.

Sharon will provide the plan, Mofaz the implementation and Peres the
alibi.

When Chief-of-Staff Mofaz declared this week that the Palestinian
Authority
is a "terrorist entity", he prepared public opinion for a policy of
state
terrorism: enlarging the settlements, starving the population and
 "liquidate" more and more Palestinians.

His allies, the settlers, have already pinpointed the target: they
propose
to murder Yasser Arafat.

Peres will contribute the fig-leaf for this policy: the Nobel peace
prize
that was awarded him.

We are entering a horrible, bloody adventure.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

                               National Boycott of the Products of the
Settlements

Ask the Gush office for the list of products by mail, telephone or
e-mail.

                                         .And the settlers must be
evacuated!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

--




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:58 EST 2001
Article: 258949 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA149AD.86C4A004@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In 
 Germany
References: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> <3AA0535B.5B3721EC@bellsouth.net> <97pmb9$873$1@news.tht.net> <3AA12E6E.628C5301@bellsouth.net> <97rcmr$krr$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 64
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 13:44:45 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983648553 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:42:33 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:42:33 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174834 soc.culture.israel:327933 soc.culture.usa:603794 alt.revisionism:870516 soc.culture.canada:258949 soc.culture.british:552841

I realize that this idiot intends to rile me up.  He has succeeded,
I grant him that.  He continues to say I called half of American Jews liars.
I didn't.  Since lying doesn't bother him he continues to make the
assertion.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA12E6E.628C5301@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >You are a smear artist, par excellence.  I am neither a Jewbaiter nor
> >an anitsemite.  I oppose Zionist oppression of Palestinians, which
> >bothers you not at all.  You are like alot of Zionist sympathizers,
> >all of the ones I have dealt with in fact.  You equate antiZionism
> >with antisemitism.
>
> Of course you're an antisemite, Mr. Alexander... anyone who claims
> that half of American Jewry are liars fits that description rather
> well.
>
> >> As to control, perhaps I should explain something to you - something
> >> many others have learned to their great disappointment. I cannot BE
> >> "controlled," and Nizkor isn't going anywhere, with or without
> >> organizational support.
> >>
> >> Live with it, pal. I'm the most ferociously independent sob you'll
> >> ever confront, and Nizkor's here to stay, period. Nizkor existed long
> >> before the Jewish community discovered it, and it will remain
> >> regardless of _who_ supports it or does not support it.
> >>
> >> >but I would guess that much of that is guided by B'nai Brith.
> >> >Since they aren't going to open their books, I can't do more.
> >>
> >> But they have opened their books, Mr. Alexander. The federal
> >> government has been through them with a fine toothed comb. That you
> >> aren't sufficiently informed is your problem, not mine.
> >>
> >> Do you still assert that half of America's Jews are liars, Mr.
> >> Alexander?
> >>
>
> >I notice once again that you as a consummate smear artist, have
> >not brought forth any evidence that I ever asserted that.  You
> >are not only a liar, but a defamer.  The Big Lie was a technique
> >of the Nazis.  You appear to have learnt it well.
>
> You have said that Zionists are (among other things) liars.
> When I asked you how many Jews were Zionists, you said "at least 50%,
> at least in the United States," or something very similar.
>
> Ergo, the conclusion is inescapable: You have called half of America's
> Jews Zionists, and therefore liars.
>
> Not an antisemite, Mr. Alexander? Pull the other one.
>
> --
> "...I note that on the few occasions of which I am aware where purveyors of
> anti-Semitic propaganda have endeavoured to justify their materials in
> court on the facts and the merits, they have been singularly unsuccessful..."
>    (http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/scully-olga/reason.html)



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:58 EST 2001
Article: 258951 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA15019.DFB3D73@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Innocent boy killed in his home in Al-Bireh
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 40
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:12:09 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983650196 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:09:56 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:09:56 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174837 soc.culture.israel:327935 soc.culture.usa:603802 soc.culture.canada:258951 soc.culture.british:552846


Innocent boy killed in his home in Al-Bireh

Al Bireh March 3, 2001 (PALESTINE MEDIA CENTER DAILY BULLETIN)- Ubai
Darraj was all excited for the Eid. In preparation for Mondays Muslim
holiday, he had gotten a haircut yesterday in the morning. The
nine-year-old was waiting for his father to give him money to buy new
clothes. It was a really nice and relaxing Friday. He was watching his
father paint the walls of their new apartment in Al Bireh, just across
>from the Israeli settlement of Psagot.

All of a sudden, at about 3 pm, bullets penetrated the walls of their
apartment. They were coming from the settlement of Psagot and one of
them
entered Ubais shoulder and exited from his chest. His father heard him
screaming in pain and calling him Father, father! Then he fell to the
ground and blood streamed out of his little body. His father ran to the
phone and called an ambulance, but when he returned to his sons side, he

couldnt bear to wait any longer and took him to Ramallah Hospital in his

own car.

Dr. Hosnei Atari of Ramallah Hospital stated that the bullet caused
severe
ruptures in the blood vessels by the heart. Ubai lost a lot of blood and

his life could not be saved when he arrived at 3:30 pm.

His parents are in a state of shock. His father broke down crying when
he
recalled the last day in the life of his son: He had just gotten a
haircut, and he was so excited about my promise to give him money for
new
clothes. Ubai has two brothers and two sisters. The family had just
moved
into the new apartment two weeks ago.





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:58 EST 2001
Article: 258970 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA19188.8493A007@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Apartheid and Israel: similarities : Ali Abunimah
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 133
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 18:51:20 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news3.atl 983666945 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:49:05 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 19:49:05 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174860 soc.culture.israel:327965 soc.culture.palestine:113098 soc.culture.usa:603917 soc.culture.canada:258970 soc.culture.british:552896


The following article I wrote was printed in The Chicago Maroon on March

2, 2001.

Ali Abunimah
ali@abunimah.org
http://www.abunimah.org

********************************************************************

The Chicago Maroon
March 2, 2001

http://www.chicagomaroon.com/articles/a983577840.shtml

Apartheid and Israel: similarities

Ali Abunimah

Can observers of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict learn from the
experience of apartheid-era South Africa and its transition to
democracy? Does a nascent student movement for divestment from Israel
indicate that Israel's policies towards Palestinians may be the next
target for activism inspired by that which helped end apartheid?

There are many similarities between the Israeli and South African
cases which make the comparison compelling. Israel, like apartheid-era
South Africa, grants rights to individuals based not on their
citizenship, but rather on their membership in a specific ethnic
group. Israel classifies people at birth according to their ethnicity,
and their rights and responsibilities towards the state vary based on
this classification. In apartheid-era South Africa, only whites had
full rights. In Israel, Palestinian citizens enjoy some rights, such
as the ability to vote and be elected, but only Jews have full rights
allowing them to obtain land, to receive the benefits of military
veteran status and to benefit from the "Law of Return."

There are similarities between the ideologies of Afrikanerdom and
Zionism, which portray the ruling groups in each case as an outcast
people who, escaping oppression, found freedom in a promised land. The
resistance of indigenous peoples is viewed ideologically as being
merely an extension of the oppression which had driven the settlers to
come to their promised land in the first place, thus justifying almost
any measures the ruling group saw fit to take against them.

Israel and apartheid-era South Africa also expressed their affinity
for each other throughout the 1980's with extensive economic and
military ties. The South African air force and navy, used primarily to
attack the African National Congress (ANC), and to intervene in
neighboring states, were largely armed and trained by Israel. Israeli
military advisers helped South Africa to develop military strategies
to use in Namibia and Angola, and there is strong evidence of joint
Israeli-South African development of atomic weapons.

(This history is well documented from public sources in Benjamin
Beit-Hallahmi's book The Israeli Connection [New York: Pantheon Books,
1987].)

In the late 1970's, hoping to forestall the end of white rule, South
Africa began to create "bantustans." These were nominally
"independent" homelands to which all of South Africa's blacks were
eventually supposed to be transferred. The end result, so the
apartheid rulers hoped, would be a strong white South Africa with few
or no black citizens, surrounded by a constellation of poor, weak
black states which it could easily control and exploit as a source of
cheap labor. Recognizing that this was merely an effort to continue
apartheid in another form, the ANC and the entire international
community refused to recognize the four bantustans that South Africa
created. These "independent states" were abolished when South Africa
moved towards democracy.

Israel, like many other states, accords privileges to one group while
abusing the rights of minorities. It is much easier to sustain and
perpetuate such discrimination if the privileged group is a majority.
Once the disenfranchised minority becomes too numerous, a state can no
longer claim to be both ethno-nationally defined and equitable and
democratic. It becomes a minority-ruled apartheid state. Recognizing
this, South Africa's ruling whites tried unsucessfully to transform an
overwhelming black majority into a minority through the legal fiction
of the bantustans.

Israel's dilemma is to prevent a large Palestinian minority from
reaching demographic parity with Israeli Jews. Parity would put Israel
in a situation similar to apartheid-era South Africa, and Israel would
have to face the choice of giving full citizenship to everyone or
adopting some form of formal apartheid. In order to forestall this day
of reckoning Israel has adopted several consistent strategies: first,
denying the right of Palestinian refugees who were expelled or fled
>from their homes in what is now Israel to return.

Israel's second strategy has been to try to bring as many Jews as
possible to Israel, particularly from the former Soviet Union. Third,
Israel has sought to transfer responsibility for Palestinians in the
occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip to someone else, while retaining as
much control of the land as possible. Hence, successive Israeli
goverments were in favor of annexing the occupied West Bank and Gaza
Strip to Israel, but did not do so because this would have left Israel
with the choice of either having to grant citizenship to the
Palestinians living there, or declare to the world that Israel was
prepared to rule over them forever while giving them no rights. A
minority of Israelis even supported solving the conundrum by simply
expelling the Palestinians. While none of these options were
palatable, Israel sought to maintain the status quo until the 1987-93
Palestinian uprising against military occupation made it untenable.
Hence, Israel signed up to the Oslo accords under which only 17.2
percent of the occupied West Bank ("Area A") is today even nominally
under the full control of the Palestinian Authority. 97 percent of
Palestinians in the West Bank live in this small area, which is broken
up into disconnected patches.

It is for these reasons that Palestinians increasingly ask whether the
Palestinian "state" which Israel has proposed -- which would be
criscrossed by settler-only roads, cut into pieces by Jewish
settlement blocks, required to allow Israel to occupy or lease large
swaths of its territory, and have no control over its external borders
-- is nothing more than a bantustan. The continuing growth of Israeli
settlements on their land makes Palestinians skeptical about Israel's
intentions.

Demographic trends among Israelis and Palestinians suggest that within
only a few generations Israel will have parity between Jews and
non-Jews. At that point Israelis will have to decide whether they want
to maintain the "Jewish character" of their state at any price, or
move towards a state which grants rights to all its citizens on an
equal basis.


[To see a map of South Africa's bantustans, go to:
http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/za(old.html#map ]





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:59 EST 2001
Article: 258977 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA1AA8D.648E9D9E@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Apartheid and Israel: similarities : Ali Abunimah
References: <3AA19188.8493A007@bellsouth.net>  <3AA1A419.19D35C12@sympatico.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 39
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:38:05 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983673351 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:35:51 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:35:51 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174878 soc.culture.israel:327985 soc.culture.palestine:113115 soc.culture.usa:603952 soc.culture.canada:258977 soc.culture.british:552907

Thanks.  I didn't see the question and I didn't know the answer.
RLA

"S. Mascika Baraka" wrote:

> David Lee Makowsky a écrit :
>
> > In article <3AA19188.8493A007@bellsouth.net>,
> > Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >
> > # The following article I wrote was printed in The Chicago Maroon on March
> >
> > # 2, 2001.
> >
> > # Ali Abunimah
> > # ali@abunimah.org
> > # http://www.abunimah.org
> >
> > # ********************************************************************
> >
> > # The Chicago Maroon
> > # March 2, 2001
> >
> > Why don't you tell everyone what the Chicago Maroon is?
> >
>
> http://www.chicagomaroon.com/
>
> it's the official and independen student newspaper of the University of Chicago
> sin 1892
>
> >
> > [ Rest deleted - dlm ]
> > --
> >         There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good at
> > math and those that are not.
> >
> > dlm@mcs.net



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:59 EST 2001
Article: 258978 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA1AB30.CA6E48CA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Murder felt personally
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 21
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:40:48 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983673513 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:38:33 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 21:38:33 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174879 soc.culture.israel:327986 soc.culture.usa:603953 soc.culture.canada:258978 soc.culture.british:552908

Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 23:04:59 +0200
From: Sam Bahour <>
Subject: update..........................


My sister-in-law just called crying - - about 4 hours ago Al-Bireh had
about 3
minutes of heavy gunfire.....her neighbor, Aida, was walking back home
on
the Friends road from Ramallah after shopping for the Eid holiday.  Her
husband was walking with her when a single bullet from Pesgot settlement

entered her shoulder and tore into her body.  Rushed to Ramallah
hospital
she was pronounced dead 30 minutes later....her kids are home and were
informed a few minutes ago that their mother will never come home.....

Today, Saturday, we laid to rest a beautiful 9-yr old boy.....Tomorrow,
Sunday, we will bury Aida.....Monday is only two days away...




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:09:59 EST 2001
Article: 258986 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA1C5E7.A41B4C1A@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Apartheid and Israel: similarities : Ali Abunimah
References: <3AA19188.8493A007@bellsouth.net>  <3AA1A419.19D35C12@sympatico.ca> <3AA1AA8D.648E9D9E@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 63
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 22:34:47 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news3.atl 983680387 208.61.184.216 (Sat, 03 Mar 2001 23:33:07 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 23:33:07 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174895 soc.culture.israel:328005 soc.culture.palestine:113125 soc.culture.usa:603994 soc.culture.canada:258986 soc.culture.british:552936

For your information, and that of the group, Ali Abunimah has an excellent
reputation among the ARab American community.  His biting letters to
various papers have earned him fame.  The fact that this effort didn't appear
in the Washington Post is irrelevant, except to someon who will stoop at
nothing in the way of ad hominem.
Mr. Makowsky is sort of an energy vampire.  He contributes nothing to
the discussion, but continually weighs in as a negative.
RLA

David Lee Makowsky wrote:

> Apparently Roger doesn't even seem to care where his crap comes from.
>
> In article <3AA1AA8D.648E9D9E@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> # Thanks.  I didn't see the question and I didn't know the answer.
> # RLA
> #
> # "S. Mascika Baraka" wrote:
> #
> # > David Lee Makowsky a écrit :
> # >
> # > > In article <3AA19188.8493A007@bellsouth.net>,
> # > > Roger Alexander   wrote:
> # > >
> # > > # The following article I wrote was printed in The Chicago Maroon on March
> # > >
> # > > # 2, 2001.
> # > >
> # > > # Ali Abunimah
> # > > # ali@abunimah.org
> # > > # http://www.abunimah.org
> # > >
> # > > # ********************************************************************
> # > >
> # > > # The Chicago Maroon
> # > > # March 2, 2001
> # > >
> # > > Why don't you tell everyone what the Chicago Maroon is?
> # > >
> # >
> # > http://www.chicagomaroon.com/
> # >
> # > it's the official and independen student newspaper of the University
> # of Chicago
> # > sin 1892
> # >
> # > >
> # > > [ Rest deleted - dlm ]
> # > > --
> # > >         There are three types of people in the world.  Those that
> # are good at
> # > > math and those that are not.
> # > >
> # > > dlm@mcs.net
> #
>
> --
>         There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good at
> math and those that are not.
>
> dlm@mcs.net



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:00 EST 2001
Article: 259009 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsfeeds.belnet.be!news.belnet.be!feed2.onemain.com!feed1.onemain.com!europa.netcrusader.net!207.172.3.44!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA26A99.64A9E144@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Seven Palestinian civilians killed and 18 injured by Israeli forces 
 within 48 hours:  
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 117
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:17:29 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.216
X-Trace: news2.atl 983722551 208.61.184.216 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 11:15:51 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 11:15:51 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174941 soc.culture.israel:328058 soc.culture.usa:604172 soc.culture.canada:259009 soc.culture.british:553011

Seven Palestinian civilians killed and 18 injured by Israeli forces
within 48 hours:

International community called upon to establish Criminal court
or tribunal to prosecute perpetrators of War crimes

4 March 2001

Three more Palestinian civilians were killed last night, including one
woman, and 5 injured (3 under the age of 18, including a 10 year old).
These
willful killings and willfully caused injuries are a result of the
policy of
escalating violence and excessive force used by Israeli forces against
Palestinians, at the instigation of, and resulting from threats made by,

Israeli army commanders and political leaders against the Palestinian
people.

The Palestinian civilians killed were :

· Baher Shafik Mahmoud Oda, 18 years old, Hawara Village;
· Ahmed Hasan Hahmed Alen, 18 years old, Kariot Village, in Nablus
region;
· Ida Daoud Musa, 43 year old woman of El Berih.

These killings has raised the number of those killed within the last 48
hours to 7, including amongst them two children. 18 have now been
injured,
including 8 under the age of 18 years old (the youngest being 6 years
old).
None of the Israeli soldiers or settlers involved in these deliberate
killings or willfully caused injuries have been investigated or are
being
prosecuted.

According to LAW’s documentation, at 8.30 p.m. last night inhabitants of

Hawara village saw unusual cars with Israeli number plates in their
village.
Some of the  Palestinian youths from the village tried to block their
route
and threw stones at the cars. The occupants of the Israeli cars were
Israeli
soldiers disguised as Palestinians: otherwise known as “el Mustaribeen”.

The Israeli forces fired heavily upon the Palestinian youths. As a
result of
the excessive and disproportionate force used by the Israeli forces:
one of
the Palestinian youths, Baher Shafik Mahmoud Oda, was killed. He was
killed
by three bullets of live ammunition. He was shot once in the stomach,
once
in the leg, and once in the back. In the same incident three other men
were
injured, whose names are:

· Morad Lafi Hasan, 20 years old, severely injured;
· Akram Ali Terwari, 17 years old, shot by live ammunition in the
shoulder;
· Suleiman Abraham Ouda, 16 years old, injured.

At 8.30pm on 3 March 2001, a settler from Gilo settlement deliberately
fired
at Ahmed Hasan Hahmed Alen, 18 years old from Kariot, whilst he was
driving
his car on his way back from Ramallah, where he works, to his village.
He
was shot with live ammunition in the head and died immediately. There
were
no clashes or demonstrations taking place and no firing by Palestinians
against the settlement, when Ahmed was murdered by the settler.

At 7.30 pm last night, Israeli occupying forces in the Israeli
settlement of
Basgot, situated in el Tawila Mountain, attacked the  Friends School, in
El
Bira using heavy weaponry. Ida Daoud Musa, a resident of El Bira, was
walking on the street and  was passing Friends school with her son and
daughter, when she was hit with a 5 mm live ammunition bullet. The
bullet
entered her chest, damaging her internal organs before it settled in her

upper right leg. Her daughter, Nadil Musa, 12 years old, was hit by
shrapnel
in her left arm.  Another woman was also injured with shrapnel in her
left
arm in the same incident: Wafee Ahmed Muhammed Karan, 42 years old. No
clashes or demonstrations were taking place at the time and there was no

shooting from Palestinians at the Basgot settlement when the Israeli
forces
attacked the school.

LAW condemns these increasing acts of violence, willful killings and
willfully caused great suffering and serious injury by the Israeli
forces
against Palestinian civilians.

LAW also condemns the threats being made by the Israeli political
leaders
and military commanders.

LAW asks the International Community to immediately act to stop these
grave
breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention, amounting to war crimes that
are
being perpetrated against Palestinian civilians. It asks the
International
Community to establish a Criminal Court or Tribunal to bring the
perpetrators of these war crimes to account, and to take positive
measures
to protect the Palestinian people. (see www.lawsociety.org)





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:00 EST 2001
Article: 259029 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!codeine.org!carpediem.fr!codeine.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA2EF6B.FA7AFA14@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Palestinian =?iso-8859-1?Q?Child=92s?= Bill of Rights  By: E. Yaghi 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 187
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 19:44:11 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news1.atl 983756553 208.63.204.214 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:42:33 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:42:33 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174992 soc.culture.israel:328110 soc.culture.palestine:113174 soc.culture.usa:604360 soc.culture.canada:259029 soc.culture.british:553157

                              Palestinian Child’s Bill of Rights
                                            By: E. Yaghi
I am the Palestinian child. I have read the Children’s Bill of Rights
and as a potential citizen of tomorrow, I want you, the adults who make
the rules, to hear what I have to say.

I shall address most points as they are presented.

(1) “Children’s universal rights. Children under the age of 18 have the
right to receive special care and protection. Children all have the same
rights, no matter what country they were born in or are living in, what
their sex is, what their race is, or what their religion is.”
Palestinian children do not have special care or protection from Israeli
soldiers, from Israeli bullets, from Israeli shelling. I know I do not
have the same rights as American children and I know I am persecuted
because of my religion, my nationality and where I was born, though I
was not given a choice of where my birth was to take place or what
nationality I was to inherit.

(2) “Right to inherit a better world. Children have the right to inherit
a world that is at least as good as the one their parents inherited.”
What I have inherited is a life of tragedy, a life of poverty, a life
where Israeli sharpshooters shoot to kill. If they do not kill, they
make sure that Palestinian children are shot in the head, the chest, the
arms, the legs. Many Palestinian children have lost their eyes since
Intifada Al-Aqsa began on September 28, 2000. Many Palestinian children
have had their limbs amputated. I do not call such deadly intent the
inheritance of anything that is good or positive.

(3) “Right to influence the future. Children have the right to
participate in discussions having to do with the directions our society
is taking-on the large political, economic, social and educational
issues and policies-so that children can help create the kind of world
they will grow up in.”
I do not recall anyone asking me if I like to be shot at. I do not
recall  anyone asking me if I like to be beaten and tortured by Israeli
thugs and I do not recall anyone asking my permission to be thrown in
jail simply because I throw rocks in the name of freedom, or simply
because I happened to be playing on the streets and was abducted by
Israeli soldiers. And every political, economic, social, and educational
policies are made without even considering what my opinions are.

(4) “Right to freedom of thought, opinion, expression, conscience and
religion.”
I have not been given the right to express my thoughts, my opinions, my
conscience. If anyone really wanted to know my opinion about war, I
would answer that wars are horrible and they are no place for children.

(5) “Right to media access.”
Of course, I have no access to the media. If I did, I would scream my
head off over the Internet, on the radio, on TV, and over the phone
every minute of every day to tell you about all the atrocities that are
being committed against my people and against children like me.

(6) “Right to participate in decisions affecting children.”
Every Israeli war decision affects me. Every proposal by the Palestinian
Authority affects me as well. Yet, no one asks my opinion and I am not
allowed to participate in anything but my subjugation and the abortion
of my childhood by Israeli conquistadors.

(7) “Right to privacy. Children have the right to privacy to the same
extent adults have.”
When my home is shelled in the middle of the night, when my home is
demolished by Israeli soldiers for no reason, when I have to be brave
because even if I am afraid, there is no place to hide from death, then
I can assure you, I have no privacy.

(8) “Right to respect and courtesy.”
Because I am Palestinian, Israelis do not respect me. On the contrary,
they hate me and the only courtesy they show is bullets in my head, my
chest, or brutal beatings and torture in their prisons. Just a few days
ago, the Israeli army shelled a school for blind children in Occupied
Palestine in the deep of the night. I ask you, do you consider this
respectful or courteous?

(9) “Right to an identity.”
Every day of my life, Israelis try to take my identity away from me. The
harder they try, the less successful they are.

(10) “Right to freedom of association.”
I wish that I could freely associate with my friends and not fear an
Israeli bullet cutting me down while I walk home from school with my
friends or while I play outside on my neighborhood street.

(11) “Right to care and nurturing.”
Though my parents do their best to nurture and care for me, all odds are
against them, for every minute of every day my life is threatened and
all Palestinians in the Occupied Territories are an endangered species.

(12) “Right to leisure and play.”
It is lethal when I play and it is deadly when I am at home and even
when I am asleep. I never know when Israelis might shell my house or
when an Israeli bullet might shoot me down or when I might see one of my
family members killed in front of me. I so wish I could live the life of
a leisurely child and not have to fear for my very existence 24 hours a
day, regardless of whether I stay home or not.

(13) “Right to safe work.”
Every minute I breathe, my life is threatened. And every child may be
forced to work because our cities are under curfew, under siege and
under the Israeli blockade. The Palestinian economy is at its worst in
years…in fact, there is no economy. Things are looking very desperate. I
fear the extinction of all my people.

(14) “Right to an adequate standard of living.”
There is no such thing nowadays as an adequate standard of living for
Palestinian children. Soon, if we don’t die from Israeli bullets or
shelling, we may die from starvation.

(15) “Right to life, physical integrity and protection from
maltreatment.”
I wish I could say that I am protected from maltreatment, or that my
life is not endangered, or that when Israeli soldiers catch me, I am
safe from abuse and torture. I wish I could just be a child and not have
to worry about survival on a daily basis. And every step of the way, the
Israeli occupation tries to take my integrity away from me.

(16) “Right to a diverse environment and creativity.”
The Israelis do everything they can to make sure I have no environment
but one of war and destruction. Certainly there is no room for
creativity when a war is going on and when all children have to wonder
if they are going to live from one moment to the next. How creative can
you be when there are bullets flying everywhere, when we are bombarded
by air, land and sea and when there is death all around?

(17) “Right to education.”
I do not call being shot at on the way to and from school an example of
the right to education. And when Israelis are not shooting at
Palestinian children on the way to and from their places of education,
they storm into their schools and shoot live bullets into the classrooms
in order to create more chaos and fear.

(18) “Right to access appropriate information and to a balanced
depiction of reality. Children should be protected from materials adults
consider harmful.”
I see graveyards full of Palestinian bodies killed by Israelis. I see a
small coffin being prepared for me, for it is not known how long I will
be able to live when so many are slaughtered each day. And yes, my
parents do consider bullets harmful. Bullets are lethal. I would not
advise anyone to try being the target of Israeli bullets, of Israeli
shelling, of Israeli bombs.

(19) “Right not to be exposed to prejudice.”
I don’t know what to call the genocide of my people other than
prejudice. I don’t know what else to call the Palestinian Holocaust
other than the worst form of bigotry. There will never be peace as long
as the Israelis view Palestinian children as those of a lesser god. We
are all children of the one and only God. God created all children and
adults equal and all are entitled to the same inalienable rights, to the
sanctity of life, to freedom of speech, to a normal life.

(20) “The right to a clean environment.”
I do not think that when our water supply is cut off on us, our
environment can be very clean. I do not think that when lethal gases are
released on us, that the air we breathe is clean. I do not think that
when depleted uranium is used on us, that there is much chance of our
environment being clean or that children will be protected from its
aftermath. I do not think that when we have no money and no resources,
and no permits to build a sewage system in the refugee-ghetto
concentration camps the Israelis have put us in, we have a chance of
having a clean environment. Every step of the way, Israelis deny us the
right to life, the right to a clean environment, the right to live in
safety and all other basic human rights that all men and children are
entitled to.

As you can see, the Bill of Rights for Children was not constructed for
a Palestinian child like me. I urge you to work for change, to work for
an end to the Israeli occupation of my land and I urge you to work for
the end of the slaughter of Palestinian children. I am a child. I
deserve to be a child and I should not have to worry about just staying
alive.

==========================================
Tremendous writer Edna Yaghi.
Every day, I ask myself how the Israeli people can be so brutal to the
Palestinians.
Who died, so to speak, and left them Gods on earth that they could so
easily
dispose of the lives and fortunes of so many others, people (I almost
said
like themselves, but it stuck in my throat) who are as human as anyone
on earth.
The only conclusion I keep coming back to is that they are a race of
monsters.
I hope we never see their like again.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:00 EST 2001
Article: 259033 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA2F365.D3C50118@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Conrad Black accuses one of his reporters of "blood libel"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:01:09 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news3.atl 983757571 208.63.204.214 (Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:59:31 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:59:31 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174994 soc.culture.british:553162 soc.culture.canada:259033 soc.culture.usa:604365


JTA | News at a Glance | March 04, 2001 1:48:01 PM ET

A Canadian media magnate criticized a columnist at one of his

magazines for an anti-Semitic column. Conrad Black, who owns

The Spectator in London, said Taki Theodoracopulos had issued a

"blood libel on the Jewish people wherever they may be" that was

"almost worthy of Goebbels." Theodoracopulos wrote that "the way

to Uncle Sam's heart runs through Tel Aviv and Israeli-occupied

territory" and described Israelis as "those nice guys who attack

rock-throwing youth with armour-piercing missiles."

======================================
I would laugh but the guy is perfectly serious.
One would almost think Mr. Black (husband of Barbara Amiel) was
a Zionist.
BTW, it doesn't take much to be accused of blood libel these days.
If I were a judge, I would have to say that the reporter's remarks
are a fair comment on the evidence.
The pilpul accused me of that but he quit when I threatened to sue him.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:01 EST 2001
Article: 259080 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA3B6A1.BC84D9D2@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics
Subject: Here's the article Taki wrote that got Black mad.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 117
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:54:09 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news3.atl 983807540 208.63.204.214 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:52:20 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:52:20 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175047 soc.culture.british:553274 soc.culture.canada:259080 soc.culture.usa:604575 alt.politics:447446



                           Rich rewards
                           Taki

                           Rougemont

                           The jet-set is in mourning and, like Electra,
it becomes it. Marc Rich has
                           called off his Las Vegas-theme party in St
Moritz this weekend, which will
                           force a few Englishmen in the Engadine to
commit an unnatural act and pay
                           their own bill. The reason given was the bad
publicity and the hounding of
                           the host by the press. The last time Marc
Rich called off a party was in
                           Spain, about five or six years ago. His
Mossad-trained bodyguards were
                           tipped off that his private jet would be
forced down the moment it left
                           Swiss airspace by Yankee F-16s, so he stayed
put. No reason was offered
                           back then. Although the US government was out
to grab him, Rich had the
                           proverbial ace up his sleeve. By giving lotsa
moolah to Israel, he was being
                           fed information by Mossad that even the top
brass of the Pentagon weren’t
                           getting. Mossad knew that the snatch was on
by listening in on the
                           Americans. They tipped off the fugitive
fraudster, a move that eventually
                           made Bill Clinton rich, pun intended.


                           Last week I wrote in my own ‘Taki’s Top
                           Drawer’ that, as America was not as yet
                           Israel-occupied territory, the 200 million
                           Rich gave to those nice guys, who attack
                           rock-throwing youth with armour-piercing
                           missiles, should not count as philanthropy
                           where America is concerned. To my great
                           annoyance the sentence never appeared.
                           When I rang in an Orlando Furioso mood, I was
told by a very polite flunky
                           that ‘we were trying to protect you, this is
New York’.

                           Well, there you have it. Marc Rich I have
never met and hope never to. I
                           once went out to dinner following a Norman
Mailer book party with a
                           Greek called Olga and Norman’s son, my buddy
Michael Mailer, the boxer
                           and film producer, who happened to have an
Estee Lauder blonde (common
                           but not too bad) in tow. The blonde thought
my girl was from the lower
                           classes because she (Olga) stood up to shake
hands with her. She snubbed
                           her throughout the evening. (Actually, she’s
a Greek royal.) We went to
                           Elaine’s, and after lotsa boozing, I asked
the blonde her name. ‘Daniella
                           Rich’, came the answer. Being well oiled, I
told her it was not her fault her
                           father was a Christian-basher who had caused
more harm to Broadway and
                           the theatre in general than Bomber Harris had
to Dresden. She looked
                           nonplussed. ‘My father hates the theatre,
never goes,’ or words to that
                           effect. Then the penny dropped. Papa was not
fat Frank Rich of the New
                           York Times. Papa was the crook who was to
pull off the impossible: drag
                           the whore Bill Clinton down to his level. But
back to the party which never
                           was.

                           A pretty American girl called Serena Boardman
was coming all the way
                           from Noo Yawk for it. When I asked her
whether she would go to a party
                           given, say, by John Gotti, the dapper Don, as
the Big Bagel tabloids refer to
                           him, she told me it was not the same thing.
‘Yes,’ I said. ‘Gotti is dumb
                           and in jail; Rich, the far bigger criminal
and traitor, is in St Moritz.’ That’s
                           the way it goes, sports fans. The truly big
crooks get away with it and go
                           to St Moritz and Gstaad, the little guys go
to the big house up the river. And
                           if any of you believe that Rich has not
passed money under the table to Bill
                           Clinton, then you should also believe that
I’m Monica Lewinsky’s mother.

                           Marc Rich, however, has done us a favour. By
bribing everyone and
                           sundry, he managed to expose the side of
Clinton so many leftists and
                           liberals refused to see. He also proved what
we, soi-disant anti-Semites for
                           daring to protest about soldiers shooting at
kids, always knew. The way to
                           Uncle Sam’s heart runs through Tel Aviv and
Israeli-occupied territory.
                           Rich and Clinton deserve each other. Both
make everyone around them
                           seem bigger.


                           © 2001 The Spectator.co.uk



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:01 EST 2001
Article: 259081 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA3B7CC.1F6659E7@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Here is his publisher Conrad Black's attack
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 316
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:59:08 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news3.atl 983807839 208.63.204.214 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:57:19 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:57:19 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175048 soc.culture.british:553275 soc.culture.canada:259081 soc.culture.usa:604576


                           My friend Taki has gone too far
                           Last week’s anti-Israel diatribe by The
Spectator’s High Life
                           columnist is almost worthy of Goebbels, says
Conrad Black

                           The Spectator’s social writer, Taki
Theodoracopulos, has often graciously
                           referred to me as an indulgent proprietor.
Our relations have been cordial
                           for 15 years and we have frequently been each
other’s guests, have been
                           friendly with each other’s spouses and have
many mutual friends. Long
                           before I knew him I was aware of his
penchant, sometimes entertaining but
                           sometimes excessive, to denigrate certain
ethnic groups, most often the
                           Jews. With such a bonhomous character there
is a natural tendency to
                           overlook his lapses of judgment and give him
the benefit of the doubt that
                           he is only railing against the prissy
hypersensitivities of political
                           correctness. It is hard to imagine that a
person with whom you are friendly
                           and have had many memorably agreeable times
is a racist who wishes and
                           incites violence against innocent people
because of their ethnicity or
                           religion.

                           I defended Taki when he was attacked by the
Mayor of New York for a
                           very insulting column about Puerto Ricans in
1997. His remarks were
                           outrageous but, as the Puerto Ricans did make
a mess on Fifth Avenue,
                           they contained a kernel of truth and did not
incite violence against Puerto
                           Ricans. Nor are Puerto Ricans under any
particular external threat. Nor do
                           they have a history of being savagely
oppressed. In the same spirit I
                           defended one of our other writers, William
Cash, against the wrath of the
                           entire US film industry in 1994, when he
published an article about the
                           leading Jewish figures in that industry which
was somewhat insulting but
                           well short of an incitement to racial hatred.

                           These were not among my most enjoyable
moments as a publisher, but it is
                           the duty of a publisher to defend his writers
unless they are, for whatever
                           reason, indefensible. Writers, like everyone
else, have the right to dislike
                           individuals and whole nationalities and
ethnic groups. They have the right to
                           express their dislike if they do so
rationally, are not legally defamatory, and
                           if they are within the bounds of civilised
taste. Our publications will never
                           be hounded into politically correct avoidance
of any forceful opinion
                           touching ethnicity, sectarianism, gender or
sexual orientation. To do so
                           would be to accept a muzzle on freedom of
expression and to prevent
                           comment on large and interesting aspects of
life. My associates and I
                           would shut down our publications rather than
submit to such restrictions.

                           Unfortunately, last week in this magazine,
Taki’s reflections were
                           indefensible. He expressed a hatred for
Israel and a contempt for the United
                           States and its political institutions that
were irrational and an offence to
                           civilised taste. In the process, I am afraid
he uttered a blood libel on the
                           Jewish people wherever they may be.

                           He wrote that the United States had intended
to invade French air space to
                           force down fugitive financier Marc Rich’s
aeroplane (on orders ultimately
                           from the same commander-in-chief who has now
pardoned Rich); that
                           Israeli intelligence knew more of US Air
Force activities than the Pentagon
                           did and shared this information with Rich
because Israel’s favour had been
                           bought by Rich. For Taki, the United States
was not yet ‘Israel-occupied
                           territory’; that is, occupied by ‘those nice
guys who attack rock-throwing
                           youth with armour-piercing missiles’. He
acknowledged his anti-Semitism
                           but implicitly defined it as ‘daring to
protest about soldiers shooting at
                           kids’, and he asserted that ‘the way to Uncle
Sam’s heart runs through Tel
                           Aviv and Israeli-occupied territory’.

                           In both its venomous character and its
unfathomable absurdity, this farrago
                           of lies is almost worthy of Goebbels or the
authors of the Protocols of the
                           Elders of Zion. The Jews, according to Taki,
have suborned the US
                           government, direct that country’s military
like a docile attack dog, and
                           glory in the murder of innocent or
mischievous children. He presents the
                           universal Jewish ethos as brutish, vulgar,
grasping and cunningly wicked.

                           It is a fearful thing to contemplate that
someone with whom I have had
                           such long and cordial relations should use a
publication of ours for such
                           malignant purposes, however veiled in his
familiar recourse to harmless
                           excess, or even amplified by his frequent and
publicly confessed intake of
                           intoxicating substances.

                           I wouldn’t suspect Taki of co-ordinating his
views with anyone else’s. But
                           his opinions are not greatly more extreme
than those of large sections of the
                           British media which habitually apply a double
standard when judging the
                           Israelis and Palestinians. Behind the
spurious defence of merely seeking
                           justice for the Palestinians, most of the
relevant sections of the BBC,
                           Independent, Guardian, Evening Standard and
the Foreign and
                           Commonwealth Office are rabidly anti-Israel.
I doubt that most of the
                           people involved would be hostile to someone
merely because that person
                           was Jewish, though some would, but they are
almost all, wittingly or not,
                           stoking the inferno of anti-Semitism.

                           The origins of the Arab–Israeli problem are
too complicated for easy
                           summary, but among the points normally
overlooked by most of the British
                           media is that the government of the United
Kingdom bears a unique
                           responsibility for the problem. It sold the
same real estate twice. In the
                           direst moments of the first world war Britain
promised the same territory to
                           the Jews and to the Arabs.

                           Israel, after an unconscionable length of
time, and with the exact borders
                           still in dispute, has accepted the principle
of two states in the territory it
                           once hoped to occupy itself. The Palestinians
have not accepted the right of
                           the state of Israel to survive. They do not
accept the Israelis as an
                           indigenous people and still think of them as
foreign colonial occupiers like
                           the British, the Turks and the Romans. This
and the implosion of Arafat’s
                           authority among his own people, and not the
actions of the Israelis, are the
                           sources of the present impasse, and every
knowledgable observer of the
                           Middle East knows it.

                           The West Bank is now governed by groups of
thugs, and Arafat has been
                           afraid to go there for several months. The
Palestinian Authority is a brutal
                           dictatorship and one of the most financially
corrupt regimes in the world.
                           The PLO has not lived up to any of its
significant obligations under the Oslo
                           Accords, including expunging the anti-Israel
clauses of the Palestine
                           National Charter. Barak went as far as any
Israeli leader could possibly go
                           at Camp David and was rewarded with rejection
by Arafat and the
                           unleashing of a new insurrection. Large
numbers of Palestinians have been
                           persuaded that glorious eternity awaits them
if they manage to die at the
                           hands of the Israelis. Fortified by this
belief, mobs of stone-throwers have
                           been pushed forward with snipers interspersed
among them and children in
                           the vanguard to take the brunt of the Israeli
response. Sharon gave the
                           Muslim leaders plenty of notice of his now
famous ten-minute walk on the
                           Temple Mount, and did nothing on it that was
disrespectful of Islam or of
                           the Palestinian people. Arafat has declared
that he requires an almost
                           unlimited right of return of designated
Palestinians, including millions born
                           after the initial departure in 1948, and the
demographic inundation of Israel
                           with Arabs. It is as if the UK were asked to
receive 60 million people of a
                           foreign nationality with which we had been at
war for more than 50 years.
                           Apart from Adolf Eichmann, Israel has never
executed anyone, including
                           terrorists — a refreshing contrast to the
peremptory executions routinely
                           conducted by the Palestinians and some other
neighbouring regimes.

                           We hear almost nothing of any of this from
most of the British media or the
                           Foreign Office. We hear only shrill
orchestrated solicitude for the supposed
                           underdog and relentless antagonism against
Israel — ostensibly the Israeli
                           government but, inevitably and implicitly,
the Jews.

                           These Jews are the same people whom Pope John
Paul II has recognised
                           as ‘not the cousins but the brothers and
sisters of all Christians, the chosen
                           people of the Old Testament’, to whom the
world should repent, as he did,
                           for millennia of oppression. The Pope’s own
record in these matters is
                           exemplary, but he repented for his one
billion co-religionists and for the
                           2,000-year history of the world’s foremost
Church.

                           Israel has many failings, and of course the
treatment of the Palestinians by
                           the Israelis, by the Arab powers who keep
them in the camps (breeding
                           grounds for their terrorist cannon fodder),
and by the United Nations is a
                           crime in which we are all complicit. Of
course the world must put this
                           right.

                           But we will not put it right by returning to
the ancient and evil practice of
                           persecuting the Jewish people, to whom we owe
so much for its genius in
                           almost every field and its courage in heroic
circumstances for nearly 6,000
                           years. The Jews, as much as any other people,
have shown the world what
                           human bravery and perseverance can achieve.
It was pathetic and shaming
                           that many of the distinguished leaders of
London’s Jewish community felt
                           the need to tell me last week, after local
performances of the Israeli
                           Philharmonic Orchestra, that they hoped that
‘people will realise that Israel
                           doesn’t just quell Palestinian riots’.

                           All Israel really wants is to be like other
countries, to be accepted in the
                           world as a people with dignity and a right to
a state. Israel has that right. It
                           is a sophisticated democracy and a society of
laws. Those neurotic racists
                           who dispute that right should be forced to
come out from behind the skirts
                           of legitimate differences of opinion in
Middle Eastern controversies. They
                           should be made to face those who would be
their victims.

                           And those who have assisted them, through
lassitude or negligence or
                           malice, should follow the Pope’s inspiring
example: they should repent. The
                           Pharisees and hypocrites in the British press
should repent their calumnies.
                           A few days after Arafat cavalierly rejected
generous concessions from
                           Israel and unleashed his latest bloodbath,
the Foreign Secretary was
                           photographed walking hand-in-hand with Arafat
and caused Britain to
                           condemn Israel at the United Nations. He
should repent and exorcise the
                           institutional bias of his department.

                           In our publications justice will be done.

                           To read Taki's original column, click here.
Other responses to it can be
                           found in 'Feedback' and Taki's response to
the above can be found in this
                           week's 'High Life'.

                           · Send comment on this article to the editor
of the Spectator.co.uk



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:01 EST 2001
Article: 259082 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA3B8F6.D540B47D@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.British,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: And here is Taki's craven reply with a last word by Black
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 136
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:04:06 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news3.atl 983808136 208.63.204.214 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:02:16 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:02:16 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175051 soc.culture.canada:259082 soc.culture.usa:604578



                           The US, Israel and me
                           Taki

I
                           respectfully disagree with Conrad Black’s
assessment of my 24 February
                           column concerning Marc Rich. I do not for the
life of me see where I
                           expressed hatred for Israel and a contempt
for the United States.

                           It was widely reported at the time that the
United States (I don’t know
                           which agency, but I assume the Justice
Department) had ordered the
                           capture of the fugitive Marc Rich. The only
assumption I made was that he
                           was tipped off by his Mossad contacts, in
view of the fact that he has
                           admitted that his bodyguards are mostly
ex-Mossad people. I certainly did
                           not acknowledge my anti-Semitism, as Conrad
Black writes; I said my
                           soi-disant anti-Semitism, meaning that I have
been besmirched with that
                           charge ever since I protested against certain
Israeli tactics. This does not a
                           Goebbels make me, as Mr Black writes, nor an
author of The Protocols of
                           the Elders of Zion.

                           I did not write nor hint that the Jews have
suborned the United States
                           government. I objected to the fact that Bill
Clinton allowed Marc Rich and
                           certain Israelis to suborn American justice.
In this I am joined by prominent
                           Jewish leaders such as Rabbi Eric Yoffie,
president of the Union of
                           American Hebrew Congregations, who wrote in
two Jewish weeklies in
                           Washington and New York that

                           We should be ashamed of ourselves, we have
undermined our community’s
                           moral fabric, jeopardised our political
standing, disillusioned our youth
                           and compromised the sacred values of our
tradition. In short, the moral
                           stain of this sordid affair has begun to
engulf us.

                           In his unusually frank piece, Rabbi Yoffie
says Jewish leaders were bought
                           by Marc Rich. He singled out Rabbi Irving
Greenberg, a well-regarded
                           Orthodox rabbi, who has since apologised for
having written letters
                           supporting Marc Rich. Where I made a mistake
was in the wording. By
                           writing I am a soi-disant anti-Semite, I
clearly meant a so-called
                           anti-Semite, something I ferociously deny
being.

                           I agreed wholeheartedly with Barbara Black’s
article in the Daily Telegraph
                           of last week, reminding us that Israel has a
right to exist in peace and the
                           way it’s going it might well cease to exist
altogether. In my own tiny New
                           York paper I write this week that Arafat
reminds me of a man who breaks
                           the bank in a casino, plays a little longer,
loses everything, and now is
                           demanding credit from the bank he owned and
lost through greed. (I am
                           referring to the Barak offers he turned
down.) Hardly the words of an
                           anti-Semite.

                           I am the first to agree that the West Bank is
now governed by corrupt
                           thugs, but I am also the first to say that
Israel bears a heavy responsibility
                           where the unyielding settlers are concerned.
I do not and never have
                           wished the Jews any harm, and it is
outrageous to hint that I do.

                           The New York Times and the Washington Post
have both written leading
                           articles about the disservice to Israel by
the Rich pardon, and Jim Hoagland
                           has written that Barak and other top Israelis
were risking the vital and
                           special relationship that America and Israel
enjoy, one based on morality,
                           ethical values born in the flames of the
Holocaust, and strategic imperatives,
                           and finishes by saying that in this sordid
saga everybody loses except Marc
                           Rich. In a less articulate manner, I was
trying to say the exact same thing.

                           Conrad Black comments:
                           Taki’s renunciation of anti-Semitism is
welcome. In the interests of a good
                           cause, I will overlook the implausibility of
his assertion that, in writing ‘The
                           way to Uncle Sam’s heart runs through Tel
Aviv and Israeli-occupied
                           territory’, he was only stating ‘in a less
articulate manner’ that because of
                           the Rich affair Israelis are risking their
relationship with the United States
                           ‘based on morality [and] ethical values born
in the flames of the Holocaust’.


                           Can the BBC, Independent, Guardian, Evening
Standard and the Foreign
                           Office take a similar pledge? In respect of
them, I am prepared to fear the
                           worst.

                           · Send comment on this article to the editor
of the Spectator.co.uk

Note that Barbara Black (she signs her pieces Barbara Amiel) is Conrad's
wife.
I think this giveup is sucks.  What did you think?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:01 EST 2001
Article: 259083 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fu-berlin.de!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA3BA89.C5EB794E@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>  <3A9FFA6A.1363C5DD@bellsouth.net>  <3AA017FC.541C3A96@bellsouth.net>  <3AA13033.D2FE38@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:10:49 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news3.atl 983808539 208.63.204.214 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:08:59 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:08:59 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175053 soc.culture.israel:328191 soc.culture.usa:604582 soc.culture.canada:259083 soc.culture.british:553276

Yes, Omri, Israel is the aggressor now as the Jews of the Yishuv were
the aggressors before 1948.
You know that.  The Zionists came to Palestine with the intention of
taking the land from the
Palestinians by hook or by crook.  The Palestinians responded by force
when the Jews were
only using money, it is true, but the aggressive intent and effort were
always there.
Why can you not admit this?  You have pretty much what you want.  I
guess you will admit
it when the Palestinians are all safely out of Palestine.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > One more time, jerk, Israel is the aggressor.  You know that,
>
> If I ignore 28 years of massacres aimed
> at Jews, starting in 1920, until 1948, then yes,
> Israel is the aggressor.
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:02 EST 2001
Article: 259085 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA3C220.27151509@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Jericho under siege | Naftali Lavie
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 49
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:43:13 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news3.atl 983810482 208.63.204.214 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:41:22 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:41:22 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175054 soc.culture.canada:259085 soc.culture.british:553278 soc.culture.usa:604605

Letters | Toronto Star | March 5, 2001

Jericho under siege | Naftali Lavie

Re Desert trench enforces siege of Jericho, March 3.

Sandro Contenta's report was noteworthy not only because it recalls the
Bible story of the siege of ancient Jericho. In the Bible, Jericho was
the
gateway
to the Israelites' conquest of the Promised Land.

More recently, ``Jericho first'' was the watchword for the first step in

the Middle East peace process initiated at Oslo. Since then, what has
been
accomplished is very much ``process,'' but no peace. Now it appears that

the siege imposed on the ancient oasis town of Jericho is the first step
in
a systematic campaign by Israel to completely isolate Palestinian
communities
>from each other.

By restricting Palestinian communications and movement, the immediate
goal
appears to be to break the back of the Palestinian economy, and render
the
occupied population more docile. The Israeli occupation forces hope to
then
put to rest the project of an independent Palestinian state. As in the
past,
the Palestinians will prove to be resilient, resourceful, and tenacious,

despite their suffering. They are struggling to break out of their
prison,
to assert their dignity and recapture their humanity.

Canadians can help bring peace to Jericho, and the rest of the Promised
Land,
by insisting that Israel remove its military forces from all areas
inhabited
by Palestinians.

- Naftali Lavie

Toronto




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:02 EST 2001
Article: 259090 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA3CE18.D062D3DF@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Almost unnoticed by the North American press, the terror in Gaza 
 continues.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 137
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:34:16 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news2.atl 983813545 208.63.204.214 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:32:25 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:32:25 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175062 soc.culture.israel:328195 soc.culture.canada:259090 soc.culture.usa:604630

Calgary Sun | March 5, 2001

Gaza glance disturbing | BILL KAUFMANN

Almost unnoticed by the North American press, the terror in Gaza
continues.

An Internet publication known as the Ramattan Daily -- produced for the
express purpose of revealing to the West the grim truth of Israel's
crackdown on the occupied Gaza Strip -- makes for an alarming read.

Reports include the daily and nightly indiscriminate machine-gunning and

shelling of whole villages by the powerful Israeli Defence Force (IOF)
--
an army the Ramattan writers refer to as the IOF (Israeli Occupation
Force).

Civilian traffic is shelled. Gunboats target civilians forced to skirt
Israeli roadblocks by trudging up Gaza beaches.

Troops shoot at children coming home from school, the bulldozing of
Palestinian farmland continues unabated while those who attempt to
protect
their property come under Israeli fire.

Expelled Palestinian farmers can only watch as the Israeli army slices
access roads through their pitiful agricultural plots. There's the
Israeli
army's months'-long siege of refugee camps whose inhabitants lived under

miserable
conditions at the best of times.

Any hope for a let-up in the destruction of homes by armoured bulldozer
or
tank cannon is a fleeting dream. Fleeing to avoid death or maiming is a
daily occurrence.

Palestinian workers -- when they're not barred from working in
neighbouring
Israel -- are routinely beaten and degraded by the IDF.

A tightening Israeli military noose around Gaza has throttled the
economy,
sowing destitution, despair and fury among the virtual prisoners within.

IOF border guards prevent Palestinians returning from other countries
re-entry into Gaza -- forcing them to endure the elements for weeks at a

time as they wait.

Surely these reports are exaggerated propaganda dredged up to discredit
the
Jewish state.

But the reports are all too true, says a Calgarian with close links to
both
the diplomatic and Palestinian communities and who's lived in Gaza the
past
18 months.

"I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself ... what's
happening here is incredibly shocking," Marisa Kemper, 33, says from her

home not far
>from Gaza City's waterfront. "It's a very, very dire situation here --
there's
a lack of (outside) understanding of what's going on. I'm just in a
state
of shock as to how the IDF has decided to approach this."

International aid officials follow up on the reports only to find
they're
largely true as well, she adds.

To Palestinians suffering under Israeli guns, terrorist bombings in
Israel
must appear as puny pinpricks.

Under the pretense of preventing terrorist attacks against targets in
neighbouring Israel, the IDF regularly makes travel for Palestinians
within

the Gaza Strip virtually impossible.

In an effort to quell the uprising against their occupation, the IDF is
fuelling the hatred and determination to resist them. Now, Israelis are
threatening to "invade" Gaza and the West Bank. To the Palestinians,
it's
already happened.

What's more, medical aid is withheld from the closed-off areas and
ambulances become targets of Israeli guns. Even diplomatic and UN
vehicles
have become
fair game, says Kemper.

According to the International Committee of the Red Cross, the isolation
of
Gaza villages by the IDF contravenes UN articles on free passage of
medicines and foodstuffs, the welfare and education of children and
prohibition of
collective punishment.

Palestinian fighters frequently resist the onslaught with what few
weapons
they have, or strike back at Israeli troops and settlements.

"People are trying to throw off the forces of a belligerent occupation
and
this is defined by the Geneva Convention as just that," says Kemper.

Ostensibly, Israeli troops terrorizing Gaza are there to guard Jewish
settlements. There are usually only a few hundred living there at any
one
time -- amidst 1.2 million Palestinians.

It's little wonder even some Israeli troops view their mission with
disgust. It also fully explains why Canada supported a UN proclamation
condemning Israel's excessive use of force.

But UN proclamations ring hollow to Palestinians when night falls and
cannon
and machine-gun fire strafe their neighbourhoods. 

==========================================

Can anyone read such terrible facts as this article discloses and not
be moved to exclaim "MONSTERS!"?   I know I can't.

ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE COUNTRY, AND
THE PEOPLE WHO CARRY OUT THESE HORRIBLE
POLICIES ARE HORRIBLE PEOPLE.

Roger Alexander



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:03 EST 2001
Article: 259092 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA3EAEC.26CDD0D2@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israel's constant war on Palestinian children By Arjan El Fassed 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 140
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:37:16 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.214
X-Trace: news2.atl 983820923 208.63.204.214 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:35:23 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:35:23 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175075 soc.culture.israel:328204 soc.culture.palestine:113231 soc.culture.usa:604683 soc.culture.canada:259092 soc.culture.british:553329

Israel's constant war on Palestinian children
Middle East News Online
By Arjan El Fassed for Middle East News Online
Posted Monday March 5, 2001 - 10:33:38 AM EST

http://www.middleeastwire.com/commentary/stories/20010305_1_meno.shtml

Palestinian children have been caught up in the crisis that erupted five

months ago, in which they are not merely bystanders, but targets. On 2
March
2001, Israeli occupation forces shot dead a nine-year-old boy in the
West
Bank town of El-Bireh after opening fire on a group of children playing
with
cap guns beneath his family's apartment.

Ubey Darraj was dead on arrival in hospital after being hit in the chest
by
a bullet from a heavy caliber machine-gun. Shortly afterwards, a
13-year-old
Palestinian boy, Mohammed Mahmoud Hellis, shot on February 27, had died.
He
had been hit in the head with a live round while walking home from
school
near the Karni crossing point in the Gaza Strip.

The Israeli notion that Palestinian parents send their children to die
is
the reincarnation of a well-known scapegoating strategy known as blaming
the
victim. In a clear attempt to avoid Israeli culpability for the deaths
of
Palestinian children, animosity or suspicion is directed towards the
victim,
thereby justifying or excusing the original violation the victim
suffered.
Mary Robinson, the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights,
stated
after her visit to the region that the Israeli claim that Palestinian
parents encourage their children to participate in clashes, is
"disgustingly
rejected." Israel's shoot-to-kill policy is an illusion of restraint.
What
restraint did Israel show to stop a settler from spraying 18 month-old
Sara's father's car with bullets and killing her? What restraint did the

Israeli soldier who was posted in a watchtower at Rachel's Tomb to
prevent
his finger from touching the trigger of his M16 shooting 14-year old
Mo'ayyad Osaama al-Jowareesh at close range in the head with a rubber
coated
steel bullet, as Mo'ayyad walked beneath the tower on his way to school?

Israel violates every right of a child - the right to life, the right to
be
with family and community, the right to health, the right to the
development
of the personality and the right to be nurtured and protected. While the

entire civilian population has suffered as a result of the Israeli
attack,
the affects on Palestinian children are most severe. As of 5 December, a

total of 85 Palestinian children had been killed since 28 September
2000,
with an additional 5 declared clinically dead. Over 2,500 have been
injured.
Moreover, thousands of Palestinian children have been traumatized as a
result of the daily exposure to violence and repeated attacks by Israeli

military forces on Palestinian residential areas. Among Israel's
harshest
tactics has been the detention of minors, with more than 250 children
detained during the three months since the beginning of the Intifada.

Palestinian children are virtual prisoners in their homes, due to
Israeli
imposed curfews and closures. Over 30 Palestinian schools have been
closed,
and three have been transformed into Israeli military installations,
effectively depriving Palestinian children of their right to education.
Approximately 13,000 Palestinian students and 500 teachers are unable to

reach school because of the closure imposed on Palestinian areas.

Most severe are the ways in which Palestinian children respond to the
stress
of the current crisis. While the immediate violence may end, the
negative
impact of the recent events will have lasting effects on Palestinian
children. Traumatic experiences affect the child's life in every sphere,

often causing great difficulty in their ability to concentrate at
school, to
relate to their peers, to find employment, and to develop normally.

Palestinian children who suffer from stress display a wide range of
symptoms, including increased separation anxiety and developmental
delays,
sleep disturbances and nightmares, lack of appetite, withdrawn behavior,

lack of interest in play, and, in younger children, learning
difficulties.
In older children and adolescents, responses to stress can include
anxious
or aggressive behavior and depression.

The loss of parents and other close family members leaves a life-long
impression and can dramatically alter life pathways. The extreme and
prolonged circumstances of the Israeli occupation and its inherent human

rights violations interfere with identity development. In addition to
the
suffering they undergo as a result of their own difficult experiences,
Palestinian children of all ages also take cues from their adult
care-givers.

Seeing their parents or other important adults in their lives as
vulnerable
can severely undermine children's confidence and add to their sense of
fear.

These statistics are shocking enough, but more chilling is the
conclusion to
be drawn from them: more and more of the world is being sucked into a
desolate moral vacuum. This is a space devoid of the most basic human
values; a space in which children are slaughtered and maimed; a space in

which children are starved and exposed to extreme brutality. Such
unregulated terror and violence speak of deliberate victimization. There
are
few further depths to which humanity can sink.

* The author is a political scientist and human rights activist and
affiliated with the Palestine Right to Return Coalition (PRRC) and a
regular
contributor to Middle East News Online.




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:03 EST 2001
Article: 259102 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA4488B.B80B67AE@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>  <3A9FFA6A.1363C5DD@bellsouth.net>  <3AA017FC.541C3A96@bellsouth.net>  <3AA13033.D2FE38@bellsouth.net>  <3AA3BA89.C5EB794E@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 40
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:16:43 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983844883 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:14:43 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:14:43 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175110 soc.culture.israel:328247 soc.culture.usa:604845 soc.culture.canada:259102 soc.culture.british:553449



Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > Yes, Omri, Israel is the aggressor now as the Jews of the Yishuv were
> > the aggressors before 1948.
> > You know that.  The Zionists came to Palestine with the intention of
>
> Name a single incident in which Jews
> were the aggressors, prior to 1947.
>
> Name a single one prior to 1929.
>
> You can't.
>
> Because the Pallies were the aggressors,
> starting with the Good Friday massacre of 1920.

Omri, seriously, you know that the Jews came to Palestine
with the design of supplanting the Palestinians in their own
country.  You cannot deny this.  Nor can you deny that
the Palestinians soon figured this out.  Further, if the Palestinians
had been masters of their own country, Jews would never have
been allowed to immigrate there, which is not unusual for
countries and foreigners generally.  So to say that the
Palestinians resorted to violence when confronted with
tens of thousands of illegal immigrants that they couldn't
do anything about otherwise is not to say much.  Nor
could you deny that the Jews followed and continue to follow
a path of supplanting the Palestinians and taking their land from
them.  So the claim that the Jews are and always have been
the aggressors holds.  You know that, I know that and
soon the whole world will know that, because they will
have to deal with your terrible oppression.
You will admit that your oppression of the Palestinians
is terrible won't you?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:03 EST 2001
Article: 259103 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA455AA.13F1E170@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: social inequities in Israel (from Hank Roth's board)
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 383
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:12:43 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news2.atl 983848242 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:10:42 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:10:42 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175121 soc.culture.israel:328255 soc.culture.usa:604865 soc.culture.canada:259103 soc.culture.british:553454


Earlier I mentioned the Jewish saying: "Light to the Nations."
This essay is about Social Jusice and Israel, about normalization and
how Israel can face the myths that exist. It means too that we cannot
ignore the "NEW" historians. We must realize that there were many
visions
for Israel. Martin Buber was opposed to the Zionism which would
disenfranchise Arabs and represented a position which was for a long
time
ignored. Today there is a reawakening and recognition that Israel is far

>from perfect. Criticism has always been part of Jewish culture and it is

this introspection that will make possible seeing the truth and perhaps
endeavoring, if not achieving a _new_ Israel, which is also a "Light to
the Nations."
 TheGolem

                      Hagshama Department of the WZO

              A Light to the Nations? Social Justice in Israel

              Social Problems in the Promised Land

              By Matt Plen
       ______________________________________________________________

   This trenchant article explores the burning issues in the tense
social
   fabric of Israeli society: officially sanctioned prostitution, the
   ever-increasing disparity between the rich and the poor, real wage
   inequality between men and women, and the badly-defined status of
   Israel's indigenous minorities. Matt Plenn invites us to take a
   no-holds-barred look at contemporary society in Israel, exploring how

   these issues impact on the founding ideology of the Jewish state, and

   its promise of equality.
       ______________________________________________________________

      "Let justice well up like water, righteousness like an unfailing
                                  stream."

                                                              - Amos
5:24

                                   * * *

   Nina, 19, arrived in Israel from Minsk, Belorus, on a tourist visa in

   1998. She knew she was going to work in the sex industry, but was
   promised good conditions. After working for three months at a brothel

   in Haifa, Nina was kidnapped at gunpoint, sold for $1000 at a public
   auction, beaten and raped. Nina was arrested during a police raid in
   March 1999. She was detained awaiting deportation. But despite
holding
   a valid passport and flight ticket she was not allowed to leave
   Israel. The Haifa region public prosecutor had issued a holding order

   to ensure her testimony against the three men who had kidnapped and
   raped her. Nina was finally expelled from Israel in June 1999 after
   being held in custody for two months. Government officials
interviewed
   by the press denied all responsibility for Nina's imprisonment.
   (Source: Amnesty International, Report on human rights abuses of
women
   trafficked from countries of the former Soviet Union into Israel's
sex
   industry, 2000.)

                                     *

   In 1989, dozens of families from the Abu Jardoud tribe were evicted
   from their homes in the western Negev on the pretext that the lands
   they occupied were restricted for military use. The families were
   relocated to an area called Ramat Hovav, close to an industrial waste

   dump which led to diseases among the residents. Eventually the
Israeli
   authorities temporarily relocated the families to an existing
   population concentration, with the promise that an agricultural
   settlement would be established for them. The site of the proposed
   village is unknown, and the promise has yet to be fulfilled. (Source:

   online at http://assoc40.org/english/index.htm)

                                     *

   Jacqueline Barukh lives with her five children in the Yod-Aleph
   neighbourhood of Beer-Sheva. Her husband, Moshe, works in the local
   supermarket. Jacqueline is proud that her children always have enough

   to eat; there are plenty of families in the nearby Daled
neighbourhood
   - where the Barukh family used to live - whose children survive on
   bread, cucumbers and white cheese. The Barukh's do not consider
   themselves poor, yet some of the children sleep on roll-out beds in
   the living room, Jacqueline has not bought new clothes for years, and

   every day is a financial struggle. In 1994, the Barukh's monthly
   income was 2400 shekels (then about $800), placing them below the
   poverty line. One researcher at the National Insurance Institute
   claims that although the Barukh's conditions are far from those of
   Third World poverty, the family forms part of a permanent, definable
   underclass that struggles on from day to day in crowded apartments,
on
   recycled clothes and on watered down soup on Shabbat, living in areas

   where drug abuse and petty crime are widespread. (Source: Jerusalem
   Report, April 7, 1994.)

                                   * * *

   In the Declaration of Independence the founders of Israel proclaimed
   that the new State would "...foster the development of the country
for
   the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom,
   justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will
   ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its
   inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex...." Yet in the
year
   2000, women are being bought and sold for the sex industry in a new
   slave trade, Bedouin citizens of Israel are forcibly evicted from
   their homes and land, and thousands of Israelis live below the
poverty
   line while the elite benefit from economic growth and prosperity.
   Israel is wracked by inequality and oppression based on gender,
   ethnicity, socioeconomic background, nationality, religion and more.
   Below are highlighted three examples of social injustice in Israel
   today.

   The gap between rich and poor

   Economic inequality in Israel is growing. Israel, a social report,
   1998, published by the Adva Center for Equality and Social Justice in

   Israel, reports that in 1988 the top decile of the population
received
   8.4 times the share of the bottom decile. By 1996, the figure had
   increased to 10.6. Top salaries in Israel are high and rising. The
   average monthly salary of a manager in a Stock Exchange listed
company
   was NIS 96,000 (about $24,000) in 1997. 259 managers had salaries of
   over NIS 100,000 a month, and 54 earned over NIS 200,000. At the same

   time, while top managers' salaries are on a par with those in Europe
   and the US, Israeli industrial workers' wages have been on the
   decline. Most Israeli workers earn less than the national average
wage
   (NIS 5899 in 1998); in 1995, over 65% earned less. Moreover, the
   proportion of Israelis below the poverty line is on the increase,
from
   23.8% in 1979 to 30.3% in 1996. One third of all Israeli children
live
   in poverty.

   The status of women

   Israel boasts some of the world's most progressive legislation
   guaranteeing equal rights and opportunities to women, especially in
   the workplace. But the reality is quite different. The Adva center
   reports that on average, women's monthly wages are 60% of men's. Some

   of this difference is due to the fact that more women than men work
   part time. But even when calculations are based on an hourly wage,
   women earn 80% of men's average salaries. In addition, many women are

   prevented from working full time by the lack of childcare provision.
   Day care centers only serve about one-fifth of children under the age

   of four. Kindergartens only operate in the morning, leaving the
   problem of what to do with the children in the afternoon. The
   situation with primary schools is the same. Prime Minister Ehud
   Barak's 1999 election campaign promised the introduction of a long
   school day, but so far this has not been implemented.

   Israeli women are victims of endemic violence, both domestic and
   sexual. In an Israel Women's Network report on the status of women in

   Israel, Shoshana London Sappir records that in the first three months

   of 2000, six Israeli women were murdered by their partners. In 1999,
   17 women and six children were killed in domestic violence. One third

   of Israeli women will be a victim of sexual assault or rape in their
   lifetimes. A rape is committed every 12 hours and other types of
   sexual assault every four hours. A network of voluntary organisations

   exists to deal with these problems on the therapeutic and educational

   fronts, but meagre government resources are devoted to the problem.

   Israeli Arabs

   Israeli Arabs (plus Druze, Circassians and other non-Jewish ethnic
   groups) make up one fifth of the Israeli population. They are
   guaranteed equal rights by the Declaration of Independence.
   Nevertheless, they are victims of institutionalised discrimination.
   Arab towns and villages receive lower levels of government funding
   than their Jewish equivalents. Arab citizens earn lower salaries than

   their Jewish counterparts; according to the Adva report, Ashkenazi
   Jewish employees' pay is on average twice as much as Arab wage
   earners. There are no signs that this gap is closing; the inequality
   remains stable. Inequality also exists in education. Among the
general
   population only 37.7% of students matriculate from high school (a
   precondition for progressing to higher education), and the figure in
   the Arab community is even lower: 21.9%. And while only 6% of
students
   in affluent Jewish localities drop out before completing the 12^th
   grade, in Arab areas the rate is 42%. Finally, the Arab infant
   mortality rate remains double that of Jews.

   In addition to socio-economic inequality, Israeli Arabs face another
   problem: one of identity. They live in a state whose definition as a
   Jewish State excludes or alienates them. The conflict between Israel
   and the Palestinians (with whom most Israeli Arabs identify)
   exacerbates these problems, leaving Israeli Arabs in a state of
   internal conflict. Azmi Bishara, a leading Arab Member of Knesset,
   takes the following position on the status of Israeli Arabs: "I want
   Israel to be a society which officially recognises itself as a state
   which contains two cultures, a Jewish majority culture, the other, a
   Palestinian national minority living inside a Jewish majority,
sharing
   citizenship.... The state itself may have the cultural character of
   the majority, but its relationship to citizens must be regulated by
   citizenship and not by their religious identity - in short, I want
   Israel to become a state of all its citizens." (Tikkun Magazine, 3:4)

   These inequalities between rich and poor, men and women and Jews and
   Arabs by no means paints a full picture of social injustice in
Israel,
   a picture that includes discrimination against disabled people, gays
   and lesbians, foreign workers, Mizrahi (oriental) Jews and more.

                                   * * *

   How can the dissonance between the lofty ideals of the Declaration of

   Independence and the complicated Israeli reality be explained?

   1. Tensions in Zionist ideology

   The Zionist movement was always a broad coalition. It contained
   Marxists, utopian socialists, liberals, capitalists, orthodox
factions
   (both left wing and bourgeois), right-wing nationalists,
   internationalists and more. One of the functions of the Declaration
of
   Independence was to recruit the support of all these groups for the
   proclamation of the State, to paper over the cracks between them and
   to provide a united statement of principles for the nascent state.
   Fittingly, the Declaration is full of competing visions of Israeli
   society.

   Particularism vs Universalism

   How does the principle of the "natural right of the Jewish people to
   be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own
   sovereign State" gel with the promise to "foster the development of
   the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants"? The Declaration
   is unclear about the position of non-Jews in the new state. Were they

   to be equal partners, fully integrated into Israeli society, or were
   they to be granted basic political freedoms but kept at arms' length?

   Could Israeli Arabs and other non-Jews expect full equality or not?

   Liberalism vs Socialism

   The Declaration alludes to the prophetic ideals of freedom, justice
   and peace, and announces that the new state "will ensure complete
   equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants
   irrespective of religion, race or sex." Fine sentiments, but what do
   they mean in practice? Freedom can mean almost anything, from basic
   human rights, to political freedom and democracy, to freedom from
   poverty and oppression. In the same way, justice can simply mean the
   rule of law, or it can mean the absence of exploitation and
   inequality. The Declaration of Independence hides a controversy
   between an egalitarian, socialist conception of the Jewish state and
a
   liberal, capitalist one. The word "equality" appears only in
   connection to rights. Equal rights is not the same thing as equality
   of income or even equality of opportunity. A world view based on
equal
   rights can certainly accommodate poverty and inequality.

   Normalisation vs A Light to the Nations

   Despite the tensions hidden behind the Declaration of Independence,
   the Zionist movement and the leadership of the early State was
   dominated by one political force: socialist Zionism in the form of
Ben
   Gurion's Mapai party. Ben Gurion's ideology can be summed up in one
   phrase: "from class to nation." The State of Israel was to be an
   egalitarian, socialist society in which the means of production would

   be in the hands of the workers. The Jewish working class would be
   identical with the Jewish nation and the State of Israel would be a
   model, egalitarian workers' society, free from class conflict and
   exploitation, fulfilling the biblical prophecy that Israel would
   become a Light to the Nations.

   Yet Ben Gurion's socialist Zionist vision was also ambiguous. It was
   built on a tension between two key concepts. On the one hand, the
   "normalisation of the Jewish people" and on the other the idea that
   the State of Israel would be a "Light to the Nations." But
   normalisation was interpreted in two different ways. The first was
   that the Jewish people's economic and social structure had been
   distorted by its life in galut (exile or diaspora) and that Zionism's

   job was to repair the damage. Where once Jews had been money lenders,

   inn keepers, landlords' agents, lawyers and accountants, now they
   would become farmers, labourers, carpenters and engineers. The Jewish

   people would be reconnected with creative labour and in so doing
would
   become economically and culturally independent.

   But normalisation was interpreted in another way, too. Zionists often

   dreamed of a time when Jewish criminals would be arrested by the
   Jewish police and put into Jewish prisons. In other words, the goal
of
   Zionism was not to create a model state, but to turn the Jews into a
   "people like any other." Normalisation meant an escape from the Jews'

   uniqueness and from their particular destiny. The Jews would be just
   like everyone else. If other countries were wracked by inequality,
   exploitation, selfishness and injustice, there was no reason to
expect
   otherwise from the Jews.

   In today's Israel, all these ideological tensions - over the place of

   non-Jews and particularly Arabs in Israeli society and culture,
   whether Israel should follow a free-market or a social-democratic
   model for its development, and around the key issue of whether
Israeli
   society has any special moral responsibility for creating social
   justice or not - are still playing themselves out.

   2. The myth of utopia

   Israeli collective memory portrays an idealistic past, of a united,
   egalitarian community, living out its ideals and committed to the
   common good. All that in stark contrast to today's conflict-riven,
   unequal, materialistic society. But did Israel ever live up to these
   ideals? Although Israeli society certainly has become more unequal in

   recent years, the utopian view of Zionist history masks the fact that

   Israeli society has always been marked by oppression - of women, of
   Arab citizens, of disabled people, of gays and lesbians, and of
   mizrahi Jews.

   Part of the oppression of marginalised groups has been their
silencing
   and their exclusion from public discourse. The vacuum was filled by
   rhetoric of "equality for all", "the melting pot", the "ingathering
of
   the exiles" and the rights of all Israelis, Jews and Arabs alike.
This
   hegemonic rhetoric blinded many Israelis to the injustices being
   perpetrated in their midst.

   The recent flowering of pressure groups campaigning against sexism,
   racism and homophobia, and the corresponding explosion of stories
   about marginalised groups does not necessarily attest to an increase
   in social injustice. In fact, the opposite may be true. The rising
   awareness of inequality and oppression indicates that perhaps, at
long
   last, Israelis are abandoning the myths and the conspiracy of
silence,
   and are starting to deal with the task ahead: creating social justice

   in Israel.
     _________________________________________________________________




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:04 EST 2001
Article: 259108 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA45D8D.A38BDE98@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: ISRAEL CONFIRMS : Haggai and Irit Katriel
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 161
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:46:21 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983850259 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:44:19 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:44:19 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175129 soc.culture.israel:328262 soc.culture.usa:604881 soc.culture.canada:259108 soc.culture.british:553461

I often speak of Israel as populated by monsters, and so it is.
But there are a few, a tiny number actually, of real peace activists.
Irit Katriel is a real trooper.
RLA

  ISRAEL CONFIRMS


Haggai and Irit Katriel
March 3, 2001

Hidden from the eyes of the world, obscured by a smokescreen of endless
internal-political scandals-petite, reported as "exchanges of fire" and
"security engineering work", the Israeli army's bulldozers and tanks
have
been working for months on evacuating vast areas of the Gaza strip from
their Palestinian inhabitants. The affected areas are primarily those
which
are adjacent to the Israeli settlements and army posts or along the
roads
leading to them.

For the first time today, an Israeli source confirms what anyone who has

been following the events already knows. Israeli channel 1 evening news:

"The IDF is acting to capture territories as a strategic aim in the
present
conflict. This was revealed by a senior military source. According to
the
source, the IDF is capturing territories inside zone A, in order to
improve
positions and also to make clear to the Palestinians that there is a
territorial price to the conflict". (translated from Hebrew).

The Jerusalem post's website provided some more information: "The
[senior
IDF] source said that the IDF was working to widen the margins of the
settlement blocs in the Gaza Strip in order to bolster settlers'
security
and send a message to the Palestinians that violence on their part will
yield only losses."

                                    *

"Widen the margins of the settlements", says the clean language of the
propagandist. In layman's terms, this is called expulsion, evacuation,
ethnic cleansing.

The early stages of this spree of destruction and dispossession were
surveyed
in (1). Houses were shelled and bulldozed, at times without prior notice

and with the inhabitants fleeing in horror into a dark night and an even

darker future in makeshift refugee camps of red cross tents.
Agricultural
land was flattened by the 1000s of dunoms, leaving their owners without
their property and source of income.

"Israeli shelling has left a total of about 4,000 people homeless; and
about
500 homes have been completely razed", said Ha'aretz on Jan 30th.

Numerous recent reports from Gaza all tell the same story. On Feb 19,
the
Palestinian Monitor Organization reported that "The situation in Gaza is

dreadful, and worsening by degrees. [...] the Israeli army has taken
control
of Palestinian farmland and orchards that lie alongside roads that are
used
by settlers, and land that surrounds military bases and settlements.
[...]
the Israeli military has also destroyed everything on the land. The
depth of
this destruction needs to be seen to be believed. All vegetation
including
olive and citrus trees, banana plants, mango groves, agricultural sheds,

vegetable greenhouses, and palm trees along the roadside from Gaza City
to
Khan Younis has been decimated."

Alison Weir, a particularly brave American activist who is visiting Gaza
and
reporting what she sees whenever she reaches an internet cafe or a place
to
hook up her modem, wrote on Feb 18th: "I also visited two tiny
encampments of
women and children living in tents on the dirt. They were people who
used to
have homes in Khan Younis, but the Israelis decided to make a road
through
them [...] so they bulldozed their homes and their date palms and orange

groves. [...] And the people are living in the dirt, and show me a
bent-up
aluminum wash pan that they retrieved from where their homes had been --

everything else, they said, was 'under the land'".

The Mawasi district, a Palestinian enclave within the Israeli settlement
block
of the southern part of the Gaza strip, received some extra attention
>from the
Israeli left when residents of 22 of its houses received eviction orders
on
February 11 (they were among the first to notice that the relative quiet
of the
Israeli-elections era was over). We protested, and the military denied
having
issued the eviction orders.

The next day, Reuters reported that 40 Palestinians were injured in a
six-hour
battle in Khan Younis. One of the Palestinian fighters was reported to
have
said that they were trying to protect Mawasi from the Israeli
bulldozers.

Alison Weir wrote on Feb 28: "Yesterday I visited Mawasi, a lovely
agricultural
district along the beach that Israel has closed off and is steadily
destroying.
I saw 100 year-old palm trees they had bulldozed, acres and acres of
palms,
olive trees, vegetables, that Israel leveled. I talked to farmers whose
families
have worked on this land for untold generations, who now have no
livelihoods,
their fields destroyed and confiscated. I was lucky to even get in to
Mawasi.
It's been closed off, and everyone warned me that it was dangerous. The
grandmother where I was staying was so upset at the thought that she
used
what English she could: 'No go! No go Mawasi!' "

                                    *

This is the reality behind what the "senior IDF source" calls "widening
of
the margins of the settlements". And the media is silent, and the world
is
silent, and 'security needs' justify every evil. And the comments of
this
"senior IDF source" will most likely fade away, without protest, and
without
raising a public debate in Israel or in any part of the "enlightened
West",
which is reading in its newspapers that Israel REALLY is about to lose
patience and start fighting back.


-----------------------
(1) See "Palestinian refugees; Israeli hypocricy" of Dec 23, on
IMC/Israel
at http://www.indymedia.org.il .





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:04 EST 2001
Article: 259109 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA4600F.A437984C@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>  <3A9FFA6A.1363C5DD@bellsouth.net>  <3AA017FC.541C3A96@bellsouth.net>  <3AA13033.D2FE38@bellsouth.net>  <3AA3BA89.C5EB794E@bellsouth.net>  <3AA4488B.B80B67AE@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 53
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:57:03 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983850901 208.61.185.82 (Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:55:01 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:55:01 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175136 soc.culture.israel:328269 soc.culture.usa:604888 soc.culture.canada:259109 soc.culture.british:553464

I am not an antisemite.  I oppose your brutal oppression of the Palestinians.
I suppose you will deny that you oppress them or that you are brutal
to them too.  You are a real piece of work.  Obviously bright, and
obviously indoctrinated with the ideology, and determined to oppress.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > Omri Schwarz wrote:
> >
> > > Roger Alexander  writes:
> > >
> > > > Yes, Omri, Israel is the aggressor now as the Jews of the Yishuv were
> > > > the aggressors before 1948.
> > > > You know that.  The Zionists came to Palestine with the intention of
> > >
> > > Name a single incident in which Jews
> > > were the aggressors, prior to 1947.
> > >
> > > Name a single one prior to 1929.
> > >
> > > You can't.
> > >
> > > Because the Pallies were the aggressors,
> > > starting with the Good Friday massacre of 1920.
> >
> > Omri, seriously, you know that the Jews came to Palestine
> > with the design of supplanting the Palestinians in their own
> > country.  You cannot deny this.  Nor can you deny that
>
> No, Roger, I have read 10 times more books on the issue
> than you. It is quite the contrary.
>
> Further more, only an antisemite,
> like yourself, will equate buying land,
> which is what my tribe did, with rape and
> murder, which is what the Pallies doid.
>
> > the Palestinians soon figured this out.  Further, if the Palestinians
>
> Actually, Roger, the Palestinians
> only started the violence after
> a rumor spread that Jews were planning to
> destroy the Al Aqsah mosque.
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:04 EST 2001
Article: 259143 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA4FD52.1FF1D1A3@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: "Israel - A Criminal's Paradise."
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 173
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:08:02 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news3.atl 983891151 208.61.185.82 (Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:05:51 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:05:51 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175191 soc.culture.israel:328322 soc.culture.usa:605087 soc.culture.canada:259143 soc.culture.british:553552


http://www.jta.org/story.asp?story=7149

Paris Jews worry about image after some are accused in scandal

By Joshua Schuster

PARIS, March 5 (JTA) - A major scandal has hit the heart of Paris'
heavily
Jewish clothing district.

The affair's ingredients include a pyramid scheme, $80 million, 12 of
the
124 accused fleeing to Israel, charges of anti-Semitism and one of
France's
most popular films.

The defendants, a majority of whom are Jews from Morocco and Tunisia who

came to France in the 1960s immigration wave, are store owners accused
of
having swindled French banks for loans to buy non-existent goods.

The affair blew open last month when a vast pyramid scheme, which some
suggest has been going on for decades, came tumbling down after a series
of
bank loans were defaulted.

Several store owners who sell a variety of major fashion brands in small

boutiques had sought loans to stabilize their faltering businesses, but
were told they could secure the loans only if they proved business would

pick up.

So the owners turned to friends and family who form a tight-knit
community
in Sentier, an area that covers approximately 10 square blocks in the
center of Paris. To obtain the bank loan, another store would sign a
contract agreeing to buy a large amount of stock over a certain time.

But it turns out that the majority of stores who signed such contracts
had
no intention of purchasing the goods. When it came time to settle the
loan,
the next store would search out a new loan from another bank and a new
contract from another store. The banks are also accused of knowingly
aiding
the illegal process.

The scheme ended when police began searching for shop owners who had not

paid their loans, prompting several of the accused to flee for other
countries, including Switzerland and Israel.

But the case took on a different tone as the French government accused
Israel of knowingly harboring fugitives, despite having signed an
international extradition pact.

"By intentionally pursing this policy, Israel removed itself from the
family of nations," said French prosecutor Francois Franchy.

Israel responded that it had not received an official demand for
extradition.

While the French government has sent documents requesting the capture of

the accused, it failed to include proper evidence of their guilt
according
to international standards, Israeli officials said.

"They have no one to blame but themselves," said Irit Kahn, director of
the
international department at the Israeli Justice Ministry, noting that
France has failed to resubmit their request after having been informed
of
the proper guidelines.

However, the French prosecutor has suggested during the trial that
Israel
has willingly harbored fugitives in the past, noting that Israel is on a

blacklist of 15 countries that are not cooperating in the war against
money
laundering.

Some French media outlets have chosen to press this aspect of the trial,

with one television channel broadcasting a program titled "Israel - A
Criminal's Paradise."

This immediately raised outrage in the French Jewish community, which
claimed that such programs perpetuated anti-Semitism.

"They are putting all Jews in the same sack," said one Sentier store
owner
who spoke on condition that his name not be published.

However, others in the Jewish community said they feel that Israel
should
extend more cooperation in the case.

"In principle, I think that Israel has caused itself damage by harboring

criminals on its soil," said William Goldnadel, a well-respected
French-Jewish attorney who represents one of the suspects in the case.
"They are not good citizens and do not contribute" to Israel's image.

The trial opened last week without the 12 who are alleged to have fled
to
Israel. But the tribunal involved such a huge number of defendants,
lawyers
and their families that Paris could not find a courtroom big enough for
all
of them. So the judge ordered a makeshift courtroom to be created in the

giant hall of the Palace of Justice to hold everyone.

Business continues in the Sentier district, and most of those who own
shops
had a positive view of the trial.

"Personally, I am very happy," said a woman who had worked in Sentier
for
more than 30 years. The woman declined to give her name, claiming that
she
had already seen the community treat others who were quoted in the media
as
betrayers and gossipers.

Nevertheless, she added, "The affair gives all of us a ridiculous and
bad
reputation. The trial is necessary, whether they are Jews or not."

The final ingredient in the scandal, a recently released film titled
"Would
I Lie To You 2?" has unwittingly added to the circus-like affair.

The comedy, which has achieved a huge success at the French box office,
features four Paris-based Jews from North Africa who work in the Sentier

district. The Jews are cheated by a large European corporation, but
react
with bravado and charm to exact a just revenge in the end.

Though completely unrelated to the real Sentier affair, the French
public
has continually used one to refer to the other.

Said one store owner in the Sentier, "Don't pay attention to the media
and
the trial. Better just go see 'Would I Lie To You 2?'" 

===========================================
Israel has used this excuse before, that countries haven't followed the
proper
procedure to extradite Jews who have fled there.  I get the impression
that the countries get tired of trying to follow their directions.  It
is obvious
that Israel doesn't want to extradite, remember the darling boy who
dismembered another boy then tried to burn the remains?  He is doing
soft time in Israel instead of a possible death or life without parole
in
Maryland.

Nor did the program which called Israel a criminal's paradise amount to
antisemitism.  The charge though is another example of fending off
criticism
of the Criminal's, sorry the Zionists', Paradise by calling just
criticism
of Israel antisemitism.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:04 EST 2001
Article: 259144 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA4FFD2.1CD77EBF@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: The struggle is global -
References: <3AA01E96.EA5BB510@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 28
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:18:42 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news2.atl 983891865 208.61.185.82 (Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:17:45 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:17:45 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175193 soc.culture.israel:328324 soc.culture.palestine:113299 soc.culture.usa:605093 soc.culture.canada:259144 soc.culture.british:553556

I haven't heard of these attacks.  But don't you think that when you
assert that all Jews are Zionists, others are going to take you at your
word?
And when nearly all jews stand silent in the face of your nauseous
aggression or actively support you as many wealthy Jews do,
what are people to think?  I post here the articles by the dissenters,
Not In My Name, Bill Friend, a small group in Israel, Gush shalom,
and a very few others, but most are like you Omri, blindly supporting
the horrible oppression, and trying to justify it with hollow phrases.
Jews need to separate themselves from Zionism.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > The struggle is global -
>
> The Arabs who have been attacking Jews in
> such places as Paris, Montreal, London,
> and Sydney certainly think so.
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:05 EST 2001
Article: 259145 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA501EA.4BB00B8D@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>  <3A9FFA6A.1363C5DD@bellsouth.net>  <3AA017FC.541C3A96@bellsouth.net>  <3AA13033.D2FE38@bellsouth.net>  <3AA3BA89.C5EB794E@bellsouth.net>  <3AA4488B.B80B67AE@bellsouth.net>  <3AA4600F.A437984C@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 86
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:27:38 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news2.atl 983892327 208.61.185.82 (Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:25:27 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:25:27 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175195 soc.culture.israel:328327 soc.culture.usa:605097 soc.culture.canada:259145 soc.culture.british:553562

Let me get one thing straight with you.  I don't "justify" any violence.  Some is
more understandable than others.  Your parents and many others came to
a land where the people were under occupation and began to colonize it
knowing you weren't welcome there.  Violence of the citizens was the only
response possible for them   YOu have now, as was always the plan, occupied
about 90 % of their country, and are actively destroying a good part of the little
bit that
remains to them.  And you have no excuse for this, you just keep harping
on their reaction to your illegal immigration eighty one years ago.
You are a real piece of work.  If you want sympathy, you can't find it in this
world.
RLA

Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > I am not an antisemite.  I oppose your brutal oppression of the Palestinians.
>
> And yet you dare to defend the massacres of 1920 as
> a justified response to the oh-so-awful crime of buying land.
>
> > I suppose you will deny that you oppress them or that you are brutal
> > to them too.  You are a real piece of work.  Obviously bright, and
>
> I don't deny that. I merely point out the truth,
> which is that Palestinians are far more
> brutal to Jews, whenever they get the chance.
>
> > obviously indoctrinated with the ideology, and determined to oppress.
> > RLA
> >
> > Omri Schwarz wrote:
> >
> > > Roger Alexander  writes:
> > >
> > > > Omri Schwarz wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Roger Alexander  writes:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, Omri, Israel is the aggressor now as the Jews of the Yishuv were
> > > > > > the aggressors before 1948.
> > > > > > You know that.  The Zionists came to Palestine with the intention of
> > > > >
> > > > > Name a single incident in which Jews
> > > > > were the aggressors, prior to 1947.
> > > > >
> > > > > Name a single one prior to 1929.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can't.
> > > > >
> > > > > Because the Pallies were the aggressors,
> > > > > starting with the Good Friday massacre of 1920.
> > > >
> > > > Omri, seriously, you know that the Jews came to Palestine
> > > > with the design of supplanting the Palestinians in their own
> > > > country.  You cannot deny this.  Nor can you deny that
> > >
> > > No, Roger, I have read 10 times more books on the issue
> > > than you. It is quite the contrary.
> > >
> > > Further more, only an antisemite,
> > > like yourself, will equate buying land,
> > > which is what my tribe did, with rape and
> > > murder, which is what the Pallies doid.
> > >
> > > > the Palestinians soon figured this out.  Further, if the Palestinians
> > >
> > > Actually, Roger, the Palestinians
> > > only started the violence after
> > > a rumor spread that Jews were planning to
> > > destroy the Al Aqsah mosque.
> > >
> > > --
> > > Omri Schwarz ---
> > > Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> > > "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> > > patient." -- R.F. Farr
> >
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
> Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering:
> "Noise is principally due to the presence of the
> patient." -- R.F. Farr



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:05 EST 2001
Article: 259146 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA50328.716517F8@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Conrad Black accuses one of his reporters of "blood libel"
References: <3AA2F365.D3C50118@bellsouth.net> <8869ato078ls3hlioigfii4sspk21rbkh7@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 52
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:32:56 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news2.atl 983892645 208.61.185.82 (Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:30:45 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:30:45 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175197 soc.culture.british:553565 soc.culture.canada:259146 soc.culture.usa:605100

I beg your pardon.  There is no chance of denying the publisher
of various publications the freedom of his speech.  If you mean
suing for defamation, well, defaming people carries with it certain
risks.  Calling their speech blood libel, which was what the pilpul
did to me is one form of defamation.  Taki depends on Black for
his livelihood, or most of it.  I think the New York Press, where
he shines, is not Black's, but I could be wrong.
RLA

Kim Bebbington wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Mar 2001 20:01:09 -0600, Roger Alexander
>  wrote:
>
> >
> >JTA | News at a Glance | March 04, 2001 1:48:01 PM ET
> >
> >A Canadian media magnate criticized a columnist at one of his
> >
> >magazines for an anti-Semitic column. Conrad Black, who owns
> >
> >The Spectator in London, said Taki Theodoracopulos had issued a
> >
> >"blood libel on the Jewish people wherever they may be" that was
> >
> >"almost worthy of Goebbels." Theodoracopulos wrote that "the way
> >
> >to Uncle Sam's heart runs through Tel Aviv and Israeli-occupied
> >
> >territory" and described Israelis as "those nice guys who attack
> >
> >rock-throwing youth with armour-piercing missiles."
> >
> >======================================
> >I would laugh but the guy is perfectly serious.
> >One would almost think Mr. Black (husband of Barbara Amiel) was
> >a Zionist.
> >BTW, it doesn't take much to be accused of blood libel these days.
> >If I were a judge, I would have to say that the reporter's remarks
> >are a fair comment on the evidence.
> >The pilpul accused me of that but he quit when I threatened to sue him.
> >RLA
>
> "Zionists want freedom of speech for themselves, and want to deny it
> to others.
> RLA"
>         From: Roger Alexander 
>         Message-ID: <3A9DAAFC.C9ED2BDB@bellsouth.net>
>         Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001
>
> Hypocrite.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:05 EST 2001
Article: 259148 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA50BAC.7039F503@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: ISRAELI ARMY and SETTLERS SHOOT to KILL UNARMED PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 112
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:09:16 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983894866 208.61.185.82 (Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:07:46 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:07:46 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175201 soc.culture.israel:328333 soc.culture.usa:605120 soc.culture.canada:259148 soc.culture.british:553584


The Palestine Monitor, An Information Clearinghouse

EYEWITNESS REPORT

ISRAELI ARMY and SETTLERS SHOOT to KILL UNARMED PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS

March 6, 2001

The Israeli army and settlers are increasingly and purposefully
targeting
Palestinian civilian areas located in the vicinity of illegal Israeli
settlements, causing numerous deaths and injuries.  This past week, a
nine-year old boy was shot and killed while in his bedroom, a woman was
shot
and killed while shopping with her family, and a fifty-four year old man
was
killed by a rocket which was shot into his home.

On March 2, 2001, nine-year old Obei Mohammed Darraj was killed as he
was
helping his father paint a window frame at home. The Palestine Monitor
team
visited the boy's family on March 4, 2001. Obei's father confirmed that
there had been no exchange of fire between Palestinians and the Israeli
army
and settlers that day. The bullet that entered the little boy's chest
and
exited from his back, was fired from the illegal settlement of Psagot.
Another bullet also entered the family's living room.   Upon seeing his
son
collapse, Obei's father called an ambulance but couldn’t bear the pain
of
seeing his son bleeding to death while he waited, so he decided to carry
him
to the hospital himself. At 3:30 the boy was declared dead.

On March 3, 2001 at around 7:30 pm, Aida Daoud Moussa Fatiha was shot
dead
next to the Quakers' Boys' Friends school by a 50-caliber, anti-tank
bullet
fired from the illegal Israeli settlement of Psagot. Aida Fatiha was
walking
in the street with her husband and children, shopping in preparation for
the
Eid feast when she was killed. While the settlement is relatively far
from
the mid-town area where Aida Fatiha was shot dead, the type of guns and
ammunition used by the Israeli army against Palestinian civilians have
an
extremely long range.

On March 4, 2001, the Palestine Monitor team visited the house of
54-year
old Mohammed Badarin of Ramallah who was killed by an Israeli rocket on
February 27, 2001 as he was sitting in his living room. Mohammed Baradin

leaves behind a family of ten children.  The day the shelling happened,
there were some clashes between Palestinian youth and the Israeli army
at
the City Inn Hotel and Beit Eil settlement intersection. According to
his
brother, unusually heavy rounds of bullets were fired into Palestinian
residential areas facing the nearby Israeli settlement of Beit Eil. The
shooting was coming from three different directions and civilians were
caught in the crossfire for an hour and a half, starting at 6 pm.

At 8:30 pm that same evening, Israeli tanks starting firing rockets at
the
house of Mohammed Badarin, although the clashes had stopped an hour
before.
An Israeli rocket hit Mohammed Badarin as he was sitting in his living
room.
The rest of the family was dispersed in different rooms, some of the men

were attempting to remove cooking gas canisters from the kitchen for
fear
that they would be hit by subsequent shelling. According to testimonies
by
his family, Mohammed Badarin's body was torn into several pieces. The
Palestine Monitor team noticed numerous pools of blood splattered over
the
walls and ceiling of the living room. Shortly afterwards, the second
floor
of the Badarin family's house was hit by a second rocket, although
clashes
had long stopped by that time.

The Badarins’ home is severely damaged and uninhabitable.  The façade of
the
home is riddled with hundreds of bullet holes and there are two-meter
wide
holes on each of the floors of the house.  Bullets and rockets entered
the
home, causing severe damage to its contents.  The Badarin family now has
to
sleep on makeshift beds on the floor, scattered in the house's
corridors.
There are no longer any rooms that can be utilized, except for the
kitchen
which has windows pierced by several bullet holes.

On this same night of shelling, the nearby Ministry of Local Councils
was
also hit by several hundred bullets and by a rocket, which completely
destroyed the top floor.

For more information go to The Palestine Monitor website,
www.palestinemonitor.org





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:05 EST 2001
Article: 259154 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA51D8A.46950C43@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Monsters
References: <3A9EDD9C.67AD6D2A@bellsouth.net>  <3A9FFA6A.1363C5DD@bellsouth.net>  <3AA017FC.541C3A96@bellsouth.net>  <3AA13033.D2FE38@bellsouth.net>  <3AA3BA89.C5EB794E@bellsouth.net>  <3AA4488B.B80B67AE@bellsouth.net>  <3AA4600F.A437984C@bellsouth.net>  <3AA501EA.4BB00B8D@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 53
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:25:30 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.82
X-Trace: news1.atl 983899397 208.61.185.82 (Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:23:17 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:23:17 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175202 soc.culture.israel:328335 soc.culture.usa:605143 soc.culture.canada:259154 soc.culture.british:553616

It is utter nonsense to take what happened in this country a hundred and seventy
years ago as license for Israeli Jews to kill Palestinians in real time.  You talk
about hypocrisy.  This isn't hypocrisy, it is chutzpah, a word necessary to
describe this.
RLA

meshehu wrote:

> In article <3AA501EA.4BB00B8D@bellsouth.net>, Roger Alexander
>  wrote:
>
> > Let me get one thing straight with you.  I don't "justify" any
> violence.  Some is
> > more understandable than others.  Your parents and many others came to
> > a land where the people were under occupation and began to colonize it
> > knowing you weren't welcome there.  Violence of the citizens was the only
> > response possible for them   YOu have now, as was always the plan, occupied
> > about 90 % of their country, and are actively destroying a good part of
> the little
> > bit that
> > remains to them.  And you have no excuse for this, you just keep harping
> > on their reaction to your illegal immigration eighty one years ago.
> > You are a real piece of work.  If you want sympathy, you can't find it in this
> > world.
>
> Clean up your own garbage first, before you start telling other people how
> to deal with theirs, hypocrite.
>
> ----------
> "In 1829, Andrew Jackson, who was called Sharp Knife by the Indians, took
> office as President of the United States. During his frontier career,
> Sharp Knife and his soldiers had slain thousands of Cherokees, Chickasaws,
> Choctaws, Creeks, and Seminoles but these southern Indians were still
> numerous and clung stubbornly to their tribal lands, which had been
> assigned them *forever* by white men's treaties. In Sharp Knife's first
> message to his Congress, he recommended that all these Indians be removed
> westward beyond the Mississippi. "I suggest the propreity of setting apart
> an ample district west of the Mississippi ... to be guaranteed to the
> Indian tribes, as long as they shall occupy it."
>
> Although enactment of such law would only add to the long list of broken
> promises made to the eastern Indians, Sharp Knife was convinced that
> Indians and whites could not live together in peace and that his plan
> would make possible a final promise which never would be broken again. On
> May 28, 1830, Sharp Knife's recommendation became law.
>
> <...>
> Before these laws could be put into effect, a new wave of white settlers
> swept westward and formed the territories of Wisconsin and Iowa. This made
> it necessary for the policy makers in Washington to shift the "permanent
> Indian frontier" from the Mississippi River to the 95th Meridian."
> -Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:06 EST 2001
Article: 259315 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA82DCD.2AB55FD1@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Conrad Black accuses one of his reporters of "blood libel"
References: <3AA2F365.D3C50118@bellsouth.net> <3AA50328.716517F8@bellsouth.net> <1ipbatgs7qph8d30l2mj1stu755fps2t7t@4ax.com> <3AA6EDF4.2209B8A7@tampabay.rr.com> <987ftb$775$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 52
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:11:42 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984100198 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:09:58 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:09:58 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175446 soc.culture.british:554697 soc.culture.canada:259315 soc.culture.usa:606215

Mr. McVay is spamming the NG.  He repeats this defamation of the poster
time after time after time, and since he has it on a file, it takes him not time
at all
to put it forth.  He is to be castigated for doing it, and if it continues I will
take it up
with his ISP.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA6EDF4.2209B8A7@tampabay.rr.com>,
> Matt Giwer   wrote:
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
> "...I note that on the few occasions of which I am aware where purveyors of
> anti-Semitic propaganda have endeavoured to justify their materials in
> court on the facts and the merits, they have been singularly unsuccessful..."
>    (http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/scully-olga/reason.html)



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:06 EST 2001
Article: 259316 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA83150.A635BCEE@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: AMJ holds Press Conference to Announce Estee Lauder Boycott
References: <3A9E4FBC.9776F59F@bellsouth.net> <3AA775FD.A7C99271@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 89
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:26:40 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984101096 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:24:56 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:24:56 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175452 soc.culture.israel:328744 soc.culture.palestine:113435 soc.culture.usa:606225 soc.culture.canada:259316 soc.culture.british:554703

The post points out that Ronald Lauder is a right wing Zionist,
of the Kahanist stripe, and that he is also the owner of Estee Lauder
cosmetics.  Any person who supports Israel is not a good citizen of this
country, and his business should be boycotted.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> READER BEWARE !
> THE FOLLOWING POST IS PURE ANTI-SEMITIC PROPOGANDA !
>
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > Arabs call for boycott of Estee Lauder
> >
> > In the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful
> > American Muslims for Jerusalem
> > 208 G Street, NE
> > Suite 100
> > Washington, DC 20002
> > Phone: (202) 548-4200
> > Fax: (202) 548-4201
> > E-mail: amj@amjerusalem.org
> > WWW: http://www.amjerusalem.org
> >
> > AMJ holds Press Conference to Announce Estee Lauder Boycott
> > On Wednesday, February 28, American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ) lead a
> > coalition of advocacy organizations in a press conference calling for a
> > worldwide boycott of cosmetics giant Estée Lauder. That announcement was
> > prompted by Estée Lauder International Chairman Ronald Lauder's
> > activities in support of Israeli right-wing extremists.
> >
> > Estee Lauders products include: Estee Lauder line of perfume and
> > make-up, Aramis, Clinique, Aveda, DKNY and Tommy Hilfegere toiletries
> > products. Estee Lauder also owns several lines of hair and skin care
> > products and shops such as M.A.C. and Origins.
> >
> > Ronald Lauder is the Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major
> > American Jewish Organizations and President of the Jewish National Fund
> > (JNF). JNF is a quasi-government agency whose main function is to
> > legitimize Israeli's theft of Palestinian land.
> >
> > In January, Lauder was the key speaker from the US at a rally in
> > Jerusalem, organized by right wing Israeli politician Natan Sharansky.
> > The rally was organized to oppose the mere consideration of Jerusalem as
> > a negotiation item. Lauder addressed 300,000 Israeli extremists at the
> > gates of Haram Al-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary, one of Islam's three
> > holiest sites). Some of the protesters tried to break into the holy
> > site.
> >
> > Khalid Turaani, AMJ's Executive Director said "this boycott of Estee
> > Lauder will send a clear message that people of conscience refuse to do
> > business with corporations supporting Israeli apartheid policies which
> > violate internationally-recognized human rights".
> >
> > In 1993, Lauder co-founded a think tank called the Shalem Center with
> > Yoram Hazony, a former Netanyahu aid. The Israeli Education Ministry has
> > said the center is "a research institute whose leanings are extreme
> > right-wing and even fascistic." Hebrew University professor Yisrael
> > Bartal describes Hazony as a right-wing extremist. A columnist for the
> > Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz (9/14/2000) wrote that Hazony is a
> > sympathizer of the slain radical Jewish leader Meir Kahane, who called
> > for the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel. The goal of Hazony, wrote
> > the columnist, is to find new ways of "breathing life into Kahane's
> > racist, totalitarian, intolerant ideology."
> >
> > Ronald Lauder's Jerusalem-rally speech came at a time when the Israeli
> > government was waging a campaign of siege and starvation against the
> > entire Palestinian population. While Mr. Lauder supports some legitimate
> > charitable causes in the US, he shows his true colors when abroad by
> > supporting fanatic causes that seek to uproot an entire population from
> > its native land. Lauder is also opposed to permitting Palestinian
> > refugees to return to their homes. "For Israel to allow these people to
> > return would be national suicide," he said in a statement last
> > September. In contrast, the UN General Assembly has demanded that Israel
> > allow the Palestinian refugees to return since 1948. "Lauder's
> > opposition to the return of Palestinian refugees in order to maintain
> > the pure-Jewish identity of Israel is nothing short of apartheid at its
> > worst" said Turaani.
> >
> > American Muslims for Jerusalem
> > 208 G Street NE
> > Suite 100
> > Washington, DC 20002
> > Phone: (202) 548-4200
> > Fax: (202) 548-4201
> > E-mail: amj@amjerusalem.org
> > WWW: http://www.amjerusalem.org IMRA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:06 EST 2001
Article: 259317 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA83240.963906E4@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: UC Berkeley union passes resolution calling for divestment from 
 companies in Israel
References: <3A9E3F00.5301C9F4@bellsouth.net> <3AA7764E.E6FA157F@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 98
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:30:40 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984101337 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:28:57 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:28:57 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175453 soc.culture.israel:328745 soc.culture.usa:606226 soc.culture.canada:259317

The STudents and student teachers at BErkeley are trying
to get the university to disinvest from companies doing business with
Israel.  Since Israel is a horrible oppressive regime, which is carrying
out a long continued campaign of ethnic cleansing in Palestine,
and systematically discriminating against its non Jewish citizens,
this is a perfectly appropriate action on their part and is not
antisemitic in the least.  American Jews have been at the forefront of
civil rights efforts for seventy years at least, and should applaud their
efforts.  ONly Zionsimps like Mr. Goldstein call them antisemitic.
Of course, you will note that there is no substantiation of the charge.
There can't be.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> READER BEWARE !
> THE FOLLOWING POST IS PURE ANTI-SEMITIC PROPOGANDA !
>
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 3:23 AM
> > Subject: [FreePalestine] Text of Union Resolution in support of
> > Palestine and divestment
> >
> >  Everyone:
> >
> >  The UC Berkeley unit of AGSE/UAW (Association of Graduate Student
> >  Employees/United Auto Workers) local 2865 passed the following
> > resolution
> >  tonight.
> >
> >  I think that we should try to get similar resolutions passed in other
> > unions
> >  (both at the University of California and at workplaces across the
> > country).
> >
> >  xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >  UC Berkeley -- Students for Justice in Palestine and the International
> >  Socialist Organization
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________________
> >  UC Divestment Resolution
> >
> >  Whereas during the last several months, we have witnessed an escalation
> > of
> >  Israeli military aggression against the Palestinian people, with a
> >  disproportionate number of Palestinian casualties, and illegal Israeli
> >  policies towards Palestinians including: the ongoing occupation and
> >  colonization of Palestinian territory; the denial of the rights of the
> > over
> >  4 million Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties
> > in
> >  Palestine; land confiscations and home demolitions; mass arrests and
> >  executions without due process; the use of lethal military force
> > against a
> >  civilian population; curfews and village closures as collective
> > punishment;
> >  and a systematic bias against non-Jews in Israeli law and official
> > practice,
> >  and
> >
> >  Whereas the state of Israel possesses the most advanced, well-funded,
> > and
> >  technologically sophisticated military in the Middle East, and
> >
> >  Whereas Israel refuses to acknowledge its displacement of Palestinian
> > people
> >  and the ongoing military occupation of Palestine, as well as its
> > violation
> >  of UN Resolutions 181, 194, and 141 and the Fourth Geneva Convention,
> > and
> >
> >  Whereas the state of Israel has impoverished an entire nation of people
> >
> >  through its control over access to meaningful jobs, travel, water,
> >  electricity, and political rights, and
> >
> >  Whereas the University of California invests more than 6.2 billion
> > dollars
> >  in companies that do business in Israel, including General Electric and
> >
> >  Raytheon, which are military contractors for the state of Israel, and
> >
> >  Whereas as students at the University of California, academic student
> >  employees recognize that the investment strategies of the university
> > should
> >  not aid in the exploitation, displacement, and victimization of the
> >  Palestinian people,
> >
> >  BE IT RESOLVED that the Berkeley unit of AGSE/UAW local 2865 lends its
> >  support to the Palestinian people and calls on the UC Regents to end
> > its
> >  financial ties to Israel by divesting from companies with subsidiaries
> > in
> >  Israel and/or substantial financial commitments (over 5 million
> > dollars) to
> >  the Israeli economy.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:07 EST 2001
Article: 259318 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA832C0.B0E6B570@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Barbara Amiel is the wife of Conrad Black
References: <3A9DB83F.EE7F4F5A@bellsouth.net> <3AA7772A.F5AC3765@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 82
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:32:48 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984101465 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:31:05 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:31:05 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175454 soc.culture.canada:259318 soc.culture.usa:606227

What, Martin, you don't think that Mrs. Black gets a forum
because she is the wife of the publisher?  Get real.  And you don't think
that her articles are bigoted pieces of trash?  Shall I get one for you and
put it up?
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> READER BEWARE !
> THE FOLLOWING IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF ANTI-SEMITIC BIAS !
>
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > Subject: Barbara Amiel & Daily Telegraph should be exposed
> >
> > I have been told that Amiel is the wife of the Daily
> > Telegraph publisher (or was it the editor - not sure).
> >
> >  Well...........  unless there is another  Barbara Amiel   aka Barbara
> > Amiel
> > Black  
> > .............................    she is married to CONRAD BLACK!!!!!!!!
> >
> > quote;
> > Former editor of the Toronto Sun, columnist for McLeans magazine and the
> >
> > London Telegraph, as well as an author of several books of non-fiction,
> > Ms.
> > Amiel Black's malignant presence seems to be growing. She is now
> > International Affairs Correspondent for the Southam Presses, as well as
> > vice
> > president of Hollinger Inc. a world wide media conglomerate owned by her
> >
> > husband, Mr. C. [1]
> > [also]
> >  Barbara Amiel . Born 1940. A writer, journalist, and editor, Barbara
> > was
> > editor for the Toronto Sun.  She has won the Edgar Allan Poe Award for
> > best
> > face crime book and was the "Woman of Distinction" in 1989. She is
> > married
> > to Conrad Black, a noted newspaper entrepreneur.
> >
> > """"""""a noted newspaper entrepreneur. """""""""""""""""""
> > Some
> > understatement !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  He is the big man at Hollingers
> >
> > Both the JP and the DT are owned by Hollingers.
> > http://www.hollinger.com/
> >
> >  Her fiancial interest in Hollingers ;
> > ttp://biz.yahoo.com/t/50/600.html
> >
> > For an insight into her opinions see
> > http://www.conservativeforum.org/authquot.asp?ID=325  apage of quotes
> > from
> > her.
> >
> > [1]  http://www.studioxx.org/FemmesBranchees/BYEBYE2.html
> > .
> > I think this answers the question!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > Best wishes ,
> > Grayham
> >
> > Hollinger Inc./ Southam Inc. - Due to recent acquisitions, Hollinger
> > Inc.
> > now includes Southam Newspapers, Sterling Newspapers, Unimedia, Armadale
> >
> > Company and the Burgoyne Group. With 60 daily newpapers,
> > Hollinger/Southam
> > represent the largest publishing company in Canada.
> >
> > ==============================================
> >
> > And why should anyone care?  Writing as Barbara Amiel, she has penned
> > articles in their paper and MacLean's magazine.  The articles are rote
> > propaganda of the Zionist tripe sort.
> >
> > Remember, you can't tell the players without a program.
> > RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:07 EST 2001
Article: 259319 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA83307.F6F51081@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA
References: <3A9DADA9.F70FB14F@bellsouth.net> <3AA77788.10487DF1@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 75
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:33:59 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984101536 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:32:16 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:32:16 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175455 soc.culture.palestine:113436 soc.culture.usa:606229 soc.culture.canada:259319 soc.culture.british:554705

I urge people to go to this site and decide for themselves whether
they think there is anything antisemitic there.
There is certainly nothing of the sort in the post reproduced.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> READER BEWARE !
> THE FOLLOWING IS AN EXAMPLE OF ANTI-SEMITIC BIAS !
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA
> > http://electronicIntifada.net
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > A resource for countering myth, distortion, and spin
> > from the Israeli media war machine
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> >
> > YOU HAVE PERMISSION TO THINK CRITICALLY
> >
> > Visit THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA website to understand the how the media,
> > military, and policy authorities manipulate our thinking about the
> > Israeli-Palestinian Conflict.
> >
> > Tired of biased news coverage but not sure what to do about it?
> >
> > THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA at http://electronicIntifada.net will equip you
> > to
> > challenge myth, distortion and spin in the media in an informed way that
> >
> > will result in positive change in media coverage of the Palestinians.
> >
> > CONTEXT IS ALL
> >
> > THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA project grew out of a series of Internet
> > projects
> > both in the occupied Palestinian territories and outside. THE ELECTRONIC
> >
> > INTIFADA aims to focus on just one aspect of the struggle, the war in
> > the
> > media for a representation of the Palestinian point of view. Our job is
> > to
> > ensure the media gives the Palestinian people the permission to narrate.
> >
> > The current Palestinian uprising ("Intifada") represents the second
> > collective attempt of the Palestinian people to shake off an oppressive
> > 34-year-old military occupation.
> >
> > The Israeli military occupation has been aided and abetted by misleading
> >
> > and complicit media coverage in the West, particularly in the USA, a
> > country which provides massive and uncritical support to the Israeli
> > occupation of Palestinian lands, in contravention of international law,
> > hundreds of UN resolutions, and the Fourth Geneva Convention.
> >
> > THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE
> >
> > To learn more about the political, military, and media strategies that
> > support the Israeli occupation, and how they are mutually reinforcing,
> > visit http://electronicIntifada.net. Understanding the real story behind
> >
> > the media portrayals of developments in Israel/Palestine, you'll never
> > see
> > or read another news report in the same way.
> >
> > You can help. Join our mailing list to receive action items and notice
> > of
> > updates to the site by sending a blank e-mail message to
> > eIntifada-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------
> > http://electronicIntifada.net
> > Email: info@electronicIntifada.net
> > --------------------------



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:07 EST 2001
Article: 259320 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA83344.5759CC24@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: WJC trying to stifle Holocaust meeting in Lebanon
References: <3A9DAAFC.C9ED2BDB@bellsouth.net> <3AA778E9.BA1884F7@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 65
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:35:00 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984101596 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:33:16 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:33:16 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175456 soc.culture.lebanon:144677 soc.culture.usa:606230 soc.culture.canada:259320

I would be in your debt Martin for the antisemitism in the post.
Please.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> READER BEWARE !
> THE FOLLOWING IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF ANTI-SEMITIC LIES AND SLURS !
>
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > NEW YORK, Feb 22 (Reuters) - The World Jewish Congress called on
> > Thursday for Lebanon to block what the group said was an anti-Semitic
> > Holocaust meeting funded by Iran that will be held in Beirut next month.
> >
> > Lord Greville Janner, the WJC vice president, wrote to Swedish Prime
> > Minister Goran Persson on Feb. 21, asking him to "use your good offices
> > to call on the Lebanese government not to permit this polemic,
> > anti-Semitic and hate-inspired conference to be held in their capital."
> >
> > Elan Steinberg, the WJC executive director who gave Janner's letter
> > to Reuters, said the Jewish advocacy group appealed to Persson because
> > his country currently holds the European Union's rotating presidency.
> >
> > He said Stockholm also hosted a conference last year on Holocaust
> > education called "Combating Intolerance" that was attended by 40
> > nations.
> >
> > Marc Weber, director of the Newport Beach, California-based Institute
> > for Historical Review, said his group was helping the Swiss organization
> >
> > Verite et Justice put on the conference, which is called "Revisionism
> > and Zionism."
> >
> > "People in Lebanon should have the same right to attend and host a
> > conference, the same as other people have in the United States," Weber
> > said.
> >
> > According to Weber, the Verite et Justice director Jurgen Graf was
> > sentenced by a Swiss court in July 1998 for what Weber called "Holocaust
> >
> > denial." Graf now lives in Tehran as the guest of scholars, according to
> >
> > Weber.
> >
> > He said said he did not know whether Iran was paying for the Beirut
> > conference.
> >
> > Weber said his group did not deny the Holocaust occurred, but he said it
> >
> > published many works that were skeptical of what he called "the hype,
> > hyperbole, misreporting and distortion" about the Holocaust.
> >
> > ((Joan Gralla, U.S. Municipal Desk, +1 212 859 1654,
> > joan.gralla@reuters.com))
> >
> > Thursday, 22 February 2001 20:10:46
> > ENDS [nN22293329]
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Zionists want freedom of speech for themselves, and want to deny it to
> > others.
> > RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:08 EST 2001
Article: 259321 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA833F4.680CDCAD@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Ali Abunimah : Letter to Powell: Alarming Developments
References: <3A9D570F.B8CFD7E4@bellsouth.net> <3AA779D6.496E1958@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 109
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:37:56 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984101772 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:36:12 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:36:12 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175458 soc.culture.palestine:113437 soc.culture.usa:606231 soc.culture.canada:259321 soc.culture.british:554708

Ali Abunimah is a distinguished Arab American writer who lives near Chicago.
He editorialized on news reports of the shelling of the school.  If Israel
chooses to shell a school, they should have to deal with the news.
I think that Israel doesn't care, because they have enough media on their side
they
don't have to worry about bad publicity.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> READER BEWARE !
> THE FOLLOWING IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF ANTI-SEMITIC DIS-INFORMATION !
>
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > Subject: Letter to Powell: Alarming Developments
> >
> > February 28, 2001
> >
> > To: secretary@state.gov
> > Dear Secretary Powell,
> >
> > I am writing to express my alarm and concern at several developments in
> > the occupied territories today. According to several media reports,
> > Israeli shelling struck a Kindergarten in the occupied Gaza Strip today
> > injuring a five year old girl. According to the reports, "Israeli shells
> >
> > landed at the entrance of a kindergarten in the village of Abasan east
> > of
> > Khan Yunis, near the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel. Another
> > shell struck a mosque. The five-year-old was injured by shell splinters
> > and taken to a hospital in Khan Yunis." (AFP, February 28, 2001) The
> > Al-jazira satellite network also reports that Israeli occupation forces
> > today demolished a multi-family Palestinian home near the city of
> > Ramallah.
> >
> > It is particularly distressing that Israel took these barbaric actions
> > only a day after the State Department issued its latest report
> > documenting
> > similar abuses.
> >
> > I am further alarmed by reports in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz today
> > which state that the Israeli occupation forces in the West Bank are
> > considering "ways of legalising security patrols led by Jewish
> > settlers." This would be a very dangerous and provocative development. I
> >
> > am writing to urge the United States to use all its influence to ensure
> > that Israel does not further empower these terror groups.
> >
> > As the State Department reported in its annual human rights country
> > practices report, the settlers in the occupied territories are
> > responsible
> > for severe violence against Palestinians. According to your departments
> > own report, in 2000
> >
> > "There were credible reports that settlers killed at least 14 and
> > injured
> > a number of Palestinians during the 'Al-Aqsa Intifada,' usually by
> > stoning
> > vehicles, which caused fatal accidents, shooting them, or hitting them
> > with moving vehicles. For example, on October 1, unidentified Israeli
> > settlers opened fire on a car holding Palestinians, killing an 18-month
> > old baby."
> >
> > The State Department report also confirms that "the Israeli government
> > did
> > not prosecute the settlers for their acts of violence. In general,
> > settlers rarely serve prison sentences if convicted of a crime against
> > Palestinians." (Occupied Territories, Country Reports on Human Rights
> > Practices--2000, U.S. Department of State, February 2001)
> >
> > Furthermore, the settlers leaders have frequently made threats of
> > violence
> > and terror against Palestinians. In November, Lenny Goldberg, a settler
> > leader was quoted in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz saying:
> >
> > "The Arabs must be made to feel afraid, since the IDF isn't doing
> > it...They aren't afraid of the IDF, so we have to make them fear us.
> > When
> > the settlers put up a roadblock, the Arabs stay two kilometers away.
> > When
> > the IDF does it, they aren't afraid."
> >
> > I hope that given these facts you can understand the extreme alarm that
> > this matter causes. I hope you will immediately reiterate to Israel
> > that:
> >
> > (1) The presence of settlers in the occupied territories is a violation
> > of
> > Article 49 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions Relative to the Protection of
> > Civilian Persons in Time of War.
> >
> > (2) Israel must cease and desist from using weapons supplied or paid for
> >
> > by the United States to commit human rights abuses in the occupied
> > territories.
> >
> > Secretary Powell, there is much the United States can do to restrain
> > Israel's continuing aggression against the Palestinians under
> > occupation. I hope you will find the courage to act urgently.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Ali Abunimah
> > Chicago, Illinois
> >
> > ali@abunimah.org
> > http://www.abunimah.org



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:08 EST 2001
Article: 259322 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA8347C.F28362E5@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Managing the News, Israeli style
References: <3A9D5313.9C524663@bellsouth.net> <3AA77A35.55A73314@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 67
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:40:12 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984101913 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:38:33 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:38:33 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175459 soc.culture.israel:328746 soc.culture.usa:606232 soc.culture.british:554709 soc.culture.canada:259322

It is clear that this was management of the news in that
reporters who might ask "unsafe" questions were prevented
>from doing so.  How reporting the fact of the suppression
of questions becomes antisemitic is not a question one may
expect Mr. Goldstein to answer.  He is not in business here to
be coherent.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> READER BEWARE !
> THE FOLLOWING IS A CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF PURE ANTI-SEMITIC PROPOGANDA !
>
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
>> http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/article.asp?mador=14&datee=2/26/01&id=
>>
>> 111295
>>
>> Ha'aretz
>> Monday, February 26, 2001
>>
>> Claiming discrimination, reporter disrupts
>> Powell news conference
>>
>> Anglo File Staff
>>
>> A news conference yesterday with U.S. Secretary of State Colin
>> Powell
>> and Prime Minister-elect Ariel Sharon was disrupted when a foreign
>> correspondent angrily charged the proceedings were "undemocratic."
>> The news conference, at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, was
>> broadcast live on CNN, BBC World, and Israeli TV and radio.
>>
>> Ben Lynfield, resident Middle East correspondent for The Scotsman,
>> ignored requests of the news conference moderator, Foreign Ministry
>> Spokeswoman Yaffa Ben Ari, to hold his question, and kept on
>> complaining he was not allowed to ask his question. Powell, however,
>>
>> said he would only respond to questions handled through the
>> moderator.
>>
>> Lynfield later told Ha'aretz he was angry because the list of
>> reporters
>> to
>> ask questions was picked before the news conference, contrary to
>> standard procedure of taking questions in random order.
>>
>> Howard Goller, chairman of the Foreign Press Association in Israel,
>> said, "If time after time, the same people get to ask questions,
>> because
>>
>> they have made arrangements beforehand, then it's time to look at
>> how
>> things should be done."
>>
>> A senior correspondent said the foreign press corps in Israel has
>> "been
>> frustrated that, during the Barak years, live-broadcast Israeli TV
>> and
>> radio have been given priority" above the foreign press.
>>
>> In defense of her actions, Ben-Ari said it was "not a regular press
>> conference, there was limited time," and Lynfield's protests were
>> "uncalled for" and "premeditated.
>



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:08 EST 2001
Article: 259323 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA835AD.E0382D7B@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Ha'aretz: Barak was biggest settlement builder since '92
References: <3A9D4F38.16BBF7B2@bellsouth.net> <3AA77B49.713E1DB0@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 57
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:45:17 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984102213 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:43:33 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:43:33 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175461 soc.culture.israel:328747 soc.culture.usa:606237 soc.culture.canada:259323 soc.culture.british:554711

Here I have to laugh.  Ha'aretz is one of the biggest papers in Israel
and is, if I am any judge, Zionist.  How an article from Ha'aretz
qualifies as antisemitic, GOK.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> READER BEWARE !
> THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF ANTI-ISRAELI PROPOGANDA !
>
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > Ha'aretz: Barak was biggest settlement builder since '92
> >
> > By Nadav Shragai Ha'aretz Correspondent   Ha'aretz  27 February 2001
> >
> > The government began construction of 1,943 housing units in the
> > territories
> > last year - the largest number in any year since 1992, according to data
> >
> > released yesterday by MK Mussi Raz (Meretz).
> >
> > The figures are based on official data from the Housing Ministry.
> >
> > Nor has the building stopped since the outbreak of the Al Aqsa Intifada:
> > In
> > the last quarter of 2000, work was begun on 954 housing units, up from
> > 368
> > in the final quarter of 1999, Raz said.
> >
> > And since such public construction accounts for only about 25 percent of
> > all
> > building in Israel, the actual number of units built in the territories
> > last
> > year was probably around four times higher.
> >
> > The figures also showed that only 632 units have so far been sold in the
> > new
> > Har Homa neighborhood of East Jerusalem, out of some 2,000 that were put
> > up
> > for sale.
> >
> > Additionally, the Housing Ministry only recently issued a tender for
> > development work in the Tel Zion neighborhood of Kochav Ya'akov, south
> > of
> > Ramallah. The plan is to build 696 apartments there for Haredi families
> > -
> > which would double the settlement's current population of about 600
> > families.
> >
> > --------------------------------------------
> >
> > ~~  Reconciliation  Conference  LIST  ~~
> > since 1994 Abraham Weizfeld organizer
> > JPLO-OLPJ-subscribe@YahooGroups.com
> > ---------------------------------------------------



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:09 EST 2001
Article: 259327 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA83B47.9F787748@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Web hate on trial as Zundel case nears end
References: <3A9D99C3.A9C72912@bellsouth.net> <3AA77958.B2D50753@coqui.net> <988h9a$h5c$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 47
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:09:11 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984103648 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:07:28 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:07:28 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175465 soc.culture.canada:259327 soc.culture.usa:606245 soc.culture.british:554720



William Black wrote:

> Martin Goldstein  wrote in message
>
> > > I doesn't matter whether Zundel spouts hate or what.  What matters is
> > > freedom of speech.  Only Zionists are engaged in trying to suppress
> > > free speech.  At the same time, Jewish owned media are giving the
> > > American people a false notion of what is going on in Israel to the
> > > benefit of the Zionists.
>
> Don't you just love idiots who say free speech is inviolate.
>
> Try calling fire in a crowded night-club and see just how free all speech
> is...
>
> Of course speech designed to cause pain and suffering should be banned.
>
> --
> William Black
>

Obviously we disagree.  There are in any event two sorts of restraint on
speech.
One is a prior restraint, a ban which you propose.  This is nearly always
a terrible thing to start in a free society.  It is justifiable in time of
war where
one wants to publish the itinerary of a troop transport, and the lives of the
troops would
be endangered.  There are many analogous situations, but even here the line
gets quickly
blurred.  The DoD has solved the problem in its modern wars by strictly
controlling
what the journalists see and where they go.
One can, of course, restrain speech by threat of criminal prosecution as in
the fire
in the crowded theater case.  And there is the threat oif defamation law
suits
where the remarks are arguably defamatory.
Beyond these limits the notion of restraining speech which some yo-yo
thinks is "designed to cause pain and suffering" is rather difficult, and
would among other things require the rewriting of the First Amendment
and all the opinions of the US Supreme Court on the subject.
RLA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:09 EST 2001
Article: 259329 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA84022.E4C18204@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA
References: <3A9DADA9.F70FB14F@bellsouth.net> <3AA77788.10487DF1@coqui.net> <3AA824DB.BD732564@sinectis.com.ar> <989chg$iug$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 22
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:29:54 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news1.atl 984104891 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:28:11 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:28:11 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175469 soc.culture.palestine:113441 soc.culture.usa:606252 soc.culture.canada:259329 soc.culture.british:554724



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AA824DB.BD732564@sinectis.com.ar>,
> Zahra   wrote:
> >Everything that is of no convenience to zionist is qualified as antisemitic!!!
> >The truth is taha YOU ARE THIEVES, and some day you'll have to give us back
> >what is ours.Truth is not antisemitic, it's only truth.
>
> ...which means, of course, that, in the fevered imagination of Mr.
> Alexander, roughly half of America's Jews are thieves.
>
> Mr. Alexander should tell us how many of the world's Jews _he_ thinks
> are Zionists... for some reason, he's avoided the question like the
> plague.

And here I thought you had no truck with Israel and Zionism.  YOu always said
you had the Holocaust as your task, and weren't involved with the other.
Wassamatta wit du have you run out of other things to do?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:09 EST 2001
Article: 259330 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!surfnet.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA8429D.62A52CB@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Those bullets seek them everywhere By Amira Hass
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 174
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:40:29 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news1.atl 984105526 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:38:46 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:38:46 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175471 soc.culture.israel:328754 soc.culture.usa:606257 soc.culture.canada:259330 soc.culture.british:554727

Ha'aretz Wed March 7, 2001

                               Those bullets seek them everywhere

                               Firing on Palestinian civilians is
reported as 'deterrent
                               shooting in the air'

                               By Amira Hass
                               Ha'aretz Correspondent

                               Last Friday around noon, a few dozen
people milled around
                               destroyed buildings, uprooted trees and
twisted, broken cooking-gas
                               cylinders at the end of A-Salam
neighborhood in Rafiah. Two days
                               earlier, the Israel Defense Forces had
destroyed the Palestinian
                               National Security position there - and
the station for refilling gas
                               cylinders that supplied all of Rafiah and
Khan Yunis.Under cover of
                               heavy fire from tanks that rolled into
the Palestinian area, IDF
                               bulldozers broke down walls and fences,
and en route destroyed a
                               little orchard and vegetable garden that
had been the pride of the
                               refugee camp. The shooting and bulldozing
were revenge for a land
                               mine exploding under the wheels of an IDF
convoy on the border a
                               few days earlier.

                               Children played between the legs of
adults in the sandy, rocky lot
                               between their homes and the border, a few
meters away. This is their
                               playground.

                               They are very experienced kids - they
warn visitors not to get too
                               close to the remains of the gas works,
because the IDF position
                               across the border is visible. A soldier
at the IDF post will shoot, they
                               say, "then he'll say he thought your
video camera looked like a rifle."

                               A few minutes later three bullets whistle
past. They come from the
                               southeast, from the IDF tower that can't
be seen useless you risk the
                               danger of approaching the fence. There
are many of these
                               observation towers, towering over the
area, scattered along the entire
                               border. They are fitted with cameras,
always taking video pictures of
                               what's going on below in enemy land.

                               Around 2:00 P.M., the IDF spokesman
confirmed to Ha'aretz that
                               indeed shots were fired. "They were in
the air," he said. The soldier in
                               the spokesman's office in the South said
it was "deterrence" so
                               people wouldn't get too close to the
border fence plant a mine
                               undercover of children playing. The
"deterrence" from afar whistled
                               past the people idling in the rubble near
the fence.

                               In Khan Yunis and Rafiah such firing is
routine. They shoot when
                               there's no attack in Israel, and when
there is a suicide bombing, when
                               a bomb goes off near a border road, and
when a bomb doesn't go
                               off.

                               When armored cars or jeeps move from one
position to another they
                               fire on civilians on the way. From the
observation towers they fire at
                               people walking on their own street or
approaching their own fields.
                               Often, the "deterrent shots in the air"
hit someone on the ground.

                               In A-Salam, on February 18, the IDF guns
wounded four children.
                               Kids shouted at a passing armored car on
the border road - they
                               probably cursed the soldiers. The
soldiers opened fire. Mahdi Omer,
                               15, was shot in the knee, Ahmed Abu Taha,
14, was hit in the back.
                               Asama Kashta, 18, was hit by fragments in
her shoulder, Muhamed
                               Matar, 14, was hit by fragments in the
back. A field investigator from
                               the Palestinian Center for Human Rights
said there had been no stone
                               throwing before the shooting - even if
one may still inquire why
                               throwing rocks at an armored car
justified gun shots.

                               On February 19, Hakima Abu-Hubeiza, 70,
was shot in the leg. He
                               lives in the village of Al-Morrka, which
was really lucky to have
                               Netzarim built next door. There were no
violent incidents in the area
                               at the time.

                               This is only a partial list. Often, an
IDF bullet travels a long distance
                               from the border, ending up precisely
between the buildings. That's
                               how Muhamed El Rom, 15, was seriously
wounded on February 23
                               in Kadura refugee camp. That's how
nine-year-old Obei Darag was
                               killed inside his El Bireh home on March
2.

                               It is how, on March 4, 42-year-old Aida
Shatiye was killed in the
                               center of El Bireh. That's how Talal Abu
Arida, 17, was killed in
                               Rafiah. He was standing in the doorway of
his family's car repair
                               shop, 1,500 meters away from a tall IDF
observation tower on the
                               border. He was hit in the head. He died
on the way to the hospital.

                               When Palestinians shoot in the air, it is
not reported in Israel as
                               shooting in the air, and certainly not as
"deterrence." It's added to a
                               long list of "shooting incidents in which
there were no casualties
                               among our forces."

                               Nobody in the IDF reports on the IDF's
routine daily firing on
                               Palestinians, unless the Palestinians
report someone was killed, or a
                               Palestinian decides to respond to the
Israeli "firing in the air" with his
                               own shooting. These will be reported (in
Israel) as "exchanges of
                               fire."

                               If shots are fired from a Palestinian
position toward Israeli civilians,
                               the army spokesman immediately reports
"Palestinians opened fire on
                               Israeli civilians, there are no
casualties, and the IDF responded by
                               firing the sources of the shooting."

                               For the next two or three hours, the news
opens with a report of the
                               shooting. It reinforces nice comfortable
theories about the monstrous
                               enemy that fires at our civilians




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:10 EST 2001
Article: 259339 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA85038.4B8F6F2D@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Egyptian military reportedly bracing for Israeli invasion of Palestinian
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 32
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:38:32 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news2.atl 984109010 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:36:50 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:36:50 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175485 soc.culture.usa:606279 soc.culture.canada:259339

I found this on SCLebanon.
RLA
Egyptian military reportedly bracing for Israeli invasion of Palestinian

areas

The World Tribune

Arab diplomatic sources report that the Egyptian military
is bracing for the prospect of an Israeli invasion of the
Palestinian Authority areas. The London-based Al Zaman
asserted that Egypt's military has begun mobilizing
reserves for training in what was termed as preparations
for a war against Israel.

This week, an Israeli military spokesman denied Arab
reports that Israeli Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Shaul Mofaz
accused Egypt of supplying weapons to the PA. Earlier,
Israeli sources said the Egyptian military is allowing
massive amounts of weapons and ammunition to be smuggled
>from Sinai to the Gaza Strip.

Egypt is hosting an emergency meeting of the Arab League
on March 12 in Cairo. The meeting, headed by Egyptian
Foreign Minister Amr Mussa, is meant to discuss the
latest developments in the Israeli-Palestinian mini-war
as well as calls to renew a boycott against Israel. The
meeting would include the foreign ministers or
representatives from the Arab League, Bahrain, Egypt,
Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco, the Palestinian Authority,
Saudi Arabia, Syria and Tunisia.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:10 EST 2001
Article: 259340 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA853FF.BD8CF5BA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: AMJ holds Press Conference to Announce Estee Lauder Boycott
References: <3A9E4FBC.9776F59F@bellsouth.net> <3AA775FD.A7C99271@coqui.net> <3AA83150.A635BCEE@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 112
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:54:39 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news1.atl 984109977 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:52:57 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:52:57 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175493 soc.culture.israel:328780 soc.culture.palestine:113449 soc.culture.usa:606288 soc.culture.canada:259340 soc.culture.british:554741

NO David, not boycotting Jews. Boycotting Israeli supporters.
Did you know that Ronald Lauder is the head of the Conference of Presidents
of Mjor Jewish Organizations?  I'll bet you do.  Did you know that he went to
Israel
a couple of months ago and gave a racist speech about the Palestinians?
I'll bet you did.  Now why didn't you make the connection between his racism
and the boycott?  Is it because the parallel between israel and Nazi GErmany
is a better one?  Naaaahh, you would never admit that, would you?
RLA

David Lee Makowsky wrote:

> Hmmm.  Boycotting Jews.  Why does early Nazi Germany come to mind?
>
> In article <3AA83150.A635BCEE@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> # The post points out that Ronald Lauder is a right wing Zionist,
> # of the Kahanist stripe, and that he is also the owner of Estee Lauder
> # cosmetics.  Any person who supports Israel is not a good citizen of this
> # country, and his business should be boycotted.
> # RLA
> #
> # Martin Goldstein wrote:
> #
> # > READER BEWARE !
> # > THE FOLLOWING POST IS PURE ANTI-SEMITIC PROPOGANDA !
> # >
> # > Roger Alexander wrote:
> # >
> # > > Arabs call for boycott of Estee Lauder
> # > >
> # > > In the Name of God, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful
> # > > American Muslims for Jerusalem
> # > > 208 G Street, NE
> # > > Suite 100
> # > > Washington, DC 20002
> # > > Phone: (202) 548-4200
> # > > Fax: (202) 548-4201
> # > > E-mail: amj@amjerusalem.org
> # > > WWW: http://www.amjerusalem.org
> # > >
> # > > AMJ holds Press Conference to Announce Estee Lauder Boycott
> # > > On Wednesday, February 28, American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ) lead a
> # > > coalition of advocacy organizations in a press conference calling for a
> # > > worldwide boycott of cosmetics giant Estée Lauder. That announcement was
> # > > prompted by Estée Lauder International Chairman Ronald Lauder's
> # > > activities in support of Israeli right-wing extremists.
> # > >
> # > > Estee Lauders products include: Estee Lauder line of perfume and
> # > > make-up, Aramis, Clinique, Aveda, DKNY and Tommy Hilfegere toiletries
> # > > products. Estee Lauder also owns several lines of hair and skin care
> # > > products and shops such as M.A.C. and Origins.
> # > >
> # > > Ronald Lauder is the Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major
> # > > American Jewish Organizations and President of the Jewish National Fund
> # > > (JNF). JNF is a quasi-government agency whose main function is to
> # > > legitimize Israeli's theft of Palestinian land.
> # > >
> # > > In January, Lauder was the key speaker from the US at a rally in
> # > > Jerusalem, organized by right wing Israeli politician Natan Sharansky.
> # > > The rally was organized to oppose the mere consideration of Jerusalem as
> # > > a negotiation item. Lauder addressed 300,000 Israeli extremists at the
> # > > gates of Haram Al-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary, one of Islam's three
> # > > holiest sites). Some of the protesters tried to break into the holy
> # > > site.
> # > >
> # > > Khalid Turaani, AMJ's Executive Director said "this boycott of Estee
> # > > Lauder will send a clear message that people of conscience refuse to do
> # > > business with corporations supporting Israeli apartheid policies which
> # > > violate internationally-recognized human rights".
> # > >
> # > > In 1993, Lauder co-founded a think tank called the Shalem Center with
> # > > Yoram Hazony, a former Netanyahu aid. The Israeli Education Ministry has
> # > > said the center is "a research institute whose leanings are extreme
> # > > right-wing and even fascistic." Hebrew University professor Yisrael
> # > > Bartal describes Hazony as a right-wing extremist. A columnist for the
> # > > Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz (9/14/2000) wrote that Hazony is a
> # > > sympathizer of the slain radical Jewish leader Meir Kahane, who called
> # > > for the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel. The goal of Hazony, wrote
> # > > the columnist, is to find new ways of "breathing life into Kahane's
> # > > racist, totalitarian, intolerant ideology."
> # > >
> # > > Ronald Lauder's Jerusalem-rally speech came at a time when the Israeli
> # > > government was waging a campaign of siege and starvation against the
> # > > entire Palestinian population. While Mr. Lauder supports some legitimate
> # > > charitable causes in the US, he shows his true colors when abroad by
> # > > supporting fanatic causes that seek to uproot an entire population from
> # > > its native land. Lauder is also opposed to permitting Palestinian
> # > > refugees to return to their homes. "For Israel to allow these people to
> # > > return would be national suicide," he said in a statement last
> # > > September. In contrast, the UN General Assembly has demanded that Israel
> # > > allow the Palestinian refugees to return since 1948. "Lauder's
> # > > opposition to the return of Palestinian refugees in order to maintain
> # > > the pure-Jewish identity of Israel is nothing short of apartheid at its
> # > > worst" said Turaani.
> # > >
> # > > American Muslims for Jerusalem
> # > > 208 G Street NE
> # > > Suite 100
> # > > Washington, DC 20002
> # > > Phone: (202) 548-4200
> # > > Fax: (202) 548-4201
> # > > E-mail: amj@amjerusalem.org
> # > > WWW: http://www.amjerusalem.org IMRA
> #
>
> --
>         There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good at
> math and those that are not.
>
> dlm@mcs.net



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:10 EST 2001
Article: 259341 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA8545D.D3FD5FE@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Ha'aretz: Barak was biggest settlement builder since '92
References: <3A9D4F38.16BBF7B2@bellsouth.net> <3AA77B49.713E1DB0@coqui.net> <3AA835AD.E0382D7B@bellsouth.net> <94Yp6.1428$9o5.133369@news.goodnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 76
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:56:13 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news1.atl 984110071 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:54:31 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:54:31 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175494 soc.culture.israel:328781 soc.culture.usa:606289 soc.culture.canada:259341 soc.culture.british:554742

I notice that you do not look at the article itself to see what it said
or if it could be called antisemitic.  Of course, it couldn't, only
in Martin Goldstein's fervid mind or yours.
RLA

David Lee Makowsky wrote:

> The following is as dumb as saying that by definition the Washington
> Post cannot print an anti-American article.
>
> In article <3AA835AD.E0382D7B@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> # Here I have to laugh.  Ha'aretz is one of the biggest papers in Israel
> # and is, if I am any judge, Zionist.  How an article from Ha'aretz
> # qualifies as antisemitic, GOK.
> # RLA
> #
> # Martin Goldstein wrote:
> #
> # > READER BEWARE !
> # > THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF ANTI-ISRAELI PROPOGANDA !
> # >
> # > Roger Alexander wrote:
> # >
> # > > Ha'aretz: Barak was biggest settlement builder since '92
> # > >
> # > > By Nadav Shragai Ha'aretz Correspondent   Ha'aretz  27 February 2001
> # > >
> # > > The government began construction of 1,943 housing units in the
> # > > territories
> # > > last year - the largest number in any year since 1992, according to data
> # > >
> # > > released yesterday by MK Mussi Raz (Meretz).
> # > >
> # > > The figures are based on official data from the Housing Ministry.
> # > >
> # > > Nor has the building stopped since the outbreak of the Al Aqsa Intifada:
> # > > In
> # > > the last quarter of 2000, work was begun on 954 housing units, up from
> # > > 368
> # > > in the final quarter of 1999, Raz said.
> # > >
> # > > And since such public construction accounts for only about 25 percent of
> # > > all
> # > > building in Israel, the actual number of units built in the territories
> # > > last
> # > > year was probably around four times higher.
> # > >
> # > > The figures also showed that only 632 units have so far been sold in the
> # > > new
> # > > Har Homa neighborhood of East Jerusalem, out of some 2,000 that were put
> # > > up
> # > > for sale.
> # > >
> # > > Additionally, the Housing Ministry only recently issued a tender for
> # > > development work in the Tel Zion neighborhood of Kochav Ya'akov, south
> # > > of
> # > > Ramallah. The plan is to build 696 apartments there for Haredi families
> # > > -
> # > > which would double the settlement's current population of about 600
> # > > families.
> # > >
> # > > --------------------------------------------
> # > >
> # > > ~~  Reconciliation  Conference  LIST  ~~
> # > > since 1994 Abraham Weizfeld organizer
> # > > JPLO-OLPJ-subscribe@YahooGroups.com
> # > > ---------------------------------------------------
> #
>
> --
>         There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good at
> math and those that are not.
>
> dlm@mcs.net



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:11 EST 2001
Article: 259344 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA85C62.B2F79DE@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Nigel Parry : AP'S BIAS: A LETTER TO INTERNATIONAL EDITOR SALLY JACOBSEN
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 318
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:30:26 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984112125 66.20.149.87 (Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:28:45 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:28:45 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175500 soc.culture.israel:328787 soc.culture.usa:606300 soc.culture.canada:259344 soc.culture.british:554744

Subject: Nigel Parry: AP's bias: a letter to international editor Sally
Jacobsen


____________________________________________________________________________

                 __  __________   _  _______      ______
                /  |/  / __/ _ | / |/ / __/ | /| / / __/
               / /|_/ /\ \/ __ |/    / _/ | |/ |/ /\ \
              /_/  /_/___/_/ |_/_/|_/___/ |__/|__/___/

         Support MSANEWS, a project of learning and enlightenment
                   "A Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste"

        [ see footer for contact and other pertinent information ]
____________________________________________________________________________

Source: Direct Submission
Organization: NigelParry.com
Email: 
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:41:16 -0600
Title: [nigelparry-news] AP's bias: a letter to international
editor Sally Jacobsen

TEXT:

AP'S BIAS: A LETTER TO INTERNATIONAL EDITOR SALLY JACOBSEN


Sally Jacobsen
International Editor
The Associated Press
sjacobsen@ap.org

March 7th, 2001


Dear Ms. Jacobsen,

I am writing to express my concern at the March 6th AP article,
"Palestinian Bombs Kindle Debate", by Dan Perry.

Reading about "exasperated Israel" in the first paragraph, it was
clear that this was not going to be a balanced article.

The current level of violence was not imposed on an Israel that has
"left no stone unturned in the search for peace" as previous Israeli
PM Barak said. Rather, it has been patently escalated by an Israel
that would appear to think that tank-mounted heavy machine guns and
attack helicopter shells are an acceptable form of crowd control.

The figures speak for themselves. On February 23rd, CNN reported
that, "[Today's] shootings raised the toll of the dead in five months
of clashes between Palestinians and Israelis to 441 -- 367
Palestinians, according to the Palestine Red Crescent Society, and 61
Israeli Jews and 13 Israeli Arabs, according to Israeli officials."

Numerous sources have termed Israeli tactics at these demonstrations
to have been excessive, including the US State Department and Amnesty
International.

Having lived in the Palestinian West Bank from 1994-98, I regularly
was treated to the spectacle of Israeli soldiers shooting
stone-throwers out of stone throwing range.

Indeed, with 100 Palestinian children killed in the present clashes,
and many of the total number killed outside even the context of
clashes, it would appear that the presentation of Israel as a country
"responding" to Palestinian violence is at best inaccurate, at worst
in blatant contradiction with the AP Managing Editor's Code of Ethics
(1995) which states that newspapers "should guard against... bias or
distortion through emphasis... [and] ...omission."

Perry's article actually states that the deaths took place during
"fighting". In fact, the daily clashes (as opposed to the nightly
activities of the very different Palestinian armed groups which could
perhaps be termed thus) have almost exclusively been the site of the
overwhelming majority of killings, apart from, as I mentioned above,
the occasions where bystanders far from any conflict have been
targeted.

The article notes, quite correctly, that, "The 1990s interim accords
left the West Bank and Gaza a jumble of fully autonomous, jointly
controlled, and Israeli-occupied areas."

However, Perry continues on to say "Most Palestinians are under some
autonomy at least...", and refers to the Israeli military occupation
as a thing of the past: "...and leave Israel where it was before: in
a costly and internally divisive military occupation over 3 million
Palestinians."

Who is really "exasperated" here?

Post-Oslo, many human rights indicators took a nose-dive, which is
the clear and obvious reason that we are seeing a Second Intifada,
something that still eludes much of the media, as does mention of the
Israeli military occupation. Speaking as one who lived in Ramallah
both pre- and post-redeployment, the reality was simply that the
occupation took a couple of steps backwards to around the towns.

Since Oslo, every time Israel had an opportunity to break with its
abusive patterns in the past and choose to work with the Palestinians
to build a new reality, it chose instead to fall back on the old
models of repression and collective punishment.

After Oslo, Israel doubled the number of settlers from 109,000 in
1993 to nearly 200,000 in 1999.

After Oslo, until March 1998, 629 Palestinian homes were demolished
in the West Bank including East Jerusalem.

Surely AP is aware that Oslo's "Area A" accounts for only 5 percent
of the West Bank land, which conveniently houses 95 percent of the
Palestinian population? Patently acting  to hand over its crowd
control problems, Israel subsequently began regularly sealing off
these areas if an individual Palestinian attacked Israelis in
Israeli-controlled areas.

On the Ramallah-Birzeit road, this happened first on 12 February
1996, just over a month after redeployment, and continued to happen
regularly throughout 1996. Birzeit University was forced to
reschedule one-and-a-half months of lost time from its academic
calendar in 1996 alone.  And that was just year one.

This small selection of statistics from the much wider range of
available statistics do not paint a picture of a reasonable
government doing all it can, that can fairly be described as
"exasperated".

Since the start of the current Intifada, Palestinians in these Area A
enclaves have been living under a state of siege unprecedented in
pre- or post-Oslo Palestinian experience, with almost all movement
between Palestinian towns and villages prohibited.

Today, it was widely reported that this siege was tightened, most
notably with over 70,000 residents from the area around Birzeit
University, where I worked during 1994-1998, cut off from the
university, with a new semester scheduled to begin in 10 days. Water
pipes and telephone lines have been cut to these areas.

It's doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why any sense of
goodwill from the 'Peace Process' evaporated quickly, as the
occupation seeming rolled on uninterrupted by a obsequious media that
by and large failed to report on these measures until as late as
Autumn 1996, when the September Clashes caught their attention.

As a result, although Palestinians had greeted the redeployments with
flags, the reality on the ground meant they were always going to be
replaced by stones. Meanwhile, the land confiscation and settlement
expansion carried on, essentially 'covered' by a media that has
always preferred pictures of stone-throwing to any meaningful
reporting on the hardships faced by Palestinian civil society.

When AP or other media reports on the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict as
if the 'poor Israelis' are trying as best they can to find peace in
the face of violence committed by amorphous Palestinian masses, this
mocks reality on the ground.

To not report the conflict in its correct context of a relentless,
ongoing military occupation is no different than if your reports on
South Africa pre-1992 had failed to prominently acknowledge the
context of the Apartheid system.

Again, AP's code of ethics states that, "The newspaper should serve
as a constructive critic of all segments of society... It should
vigorously expose wrongdoing, duplicity or misuse of power, public or
private..."

This article failed to achieve that goal, most shamefully exposed by
the fact that not a single Palestinian source was quoted, compared
with four named Israeli sources, one named American source, and a
whole range of unnamed Israeli "military officials and security
experts".

AP -- as a wire service whose copy is used by international editors
in newspapers around the world, most of whom will not have set foot
in the region -- has a special responsibility to ensure that its copy
reflects the realities on the ground. This article most clearly did
not.

Sincerely,

Nigel Parry
nigel@nigelparry.com
http://nigelparry.com

[address deleted]

cc. Dan Perry, Associated Press

AP Online
DATE: March 6, 2001; Tuesday 4:18 AM, Eastern Time
HEADLINE: Palestinian Bombs Kindle Debate
BYLINE: DAN PERRY
DATELINE: JERUSALEM

BODY: With violence raging and a more hawkish government coming in, an
exasperated Israel is debating whether anything new can be done to quash

five months of fighting with the Palestinians that has left hundreds
dead.

Options under discussion range from retaking autonomous Palestinian
zones,
to erecting a physical barrier between the Palestinians and Israel, to
targeting higher levels of Palestinian leadership.

Incoming Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has warned he won't hold peace
talks
until violence has stopped. Sharon charged Sunday that Arafat is "taking

no steps" to prevent attacks such as that day's suicide bombing that
killed four, including the attacker, in the coastal town of Netanya. "We

will work to bring security back to the citizens of Israel," he pledged.

The question on Israelis' minds is: How?

In the past year's failed peace effort, Arafat has refused what Israelis

generally perceive as their best offer: a Palestinian state in most of
the
West Bank and Gaza, dismantling of many settlements, and a share of
Jerusalem.

The 1990s interim accords left the West Bank and Gaza a jumble of fully
autonomous, jointly controlled, and Israeli-occupied areas.

Most Palestinians are under some autonomy at least, and about a quarter
of
the area the quasi-sovereign "Areas A" are theoretically out of Israel's

reach. Israel says militants plan and prepare attacks there with
impunity.

Israel's military chief, Lt. Gen. Shaul Mofaz, confirmed last week that
one of the ideas under consideration was an invasion of "Areas A" which
include all of the West Bank's cities and most of the Gaza Strip.

"The possibility of taking part of the A area is a possible direction,"
he
said. But he added, "I'm not sure that we will be happy to do it,
especially in the built-up area."

Indeed, such a move would likely exact a terrible toll on both sides, as

Israel could have to uproot armed militias and Palestinian police in
urban
combat.

It would also obliterate what was built in years of peacemaking and
leave
Israel where it was before: in a costly and internally divisive military

occupation over 3 million Palestinians.

Outgoing Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben-Ami warned against the idea, saying

it could "lead to total collapse of the Palestinian Authority."

Some are warning that process has already begun. The U.S. ambassador to
Israel, Martin Indyk, said last week that "semi-anarchy and gang rule"
are
engulfing the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The uprising erupted in September as street riots. But Palestinian
police
soon joined in, and in December armed units connected to the Palestinian

Authority took the lead in carrying out shooting attacks on Israeli
settlers, Israel charges. Now, Islamic militants are waging a campaign
of
bombings inside Israel.

Israel's reaction has included sealing off Palestinian areas, blockading

individual cities, withholding tax money, and occasional targeted
killings
of Palestinian figures believed to be involved in the violence.

Israel has been criticized internationally for excessive force in the
fighting, which has left more than 420 people dead, most of them
Palestinians. But to many Israelis it was insufficient; Barak was
crushed
in last month's election.

Sharon has not detailed his plans, but interviews with military
officials
and security experts suggest several other options under consideration:

Pinpoint strikes into areas A: "It's certainly possible to hit the
terrorist infrastructure, microscopically or on a large scale," said
Ehud
Yatom, former official of the Shin Bet security service. "Area A is not
sacred."

More strikes against Palestinian militants: Israel has gone after local
militia leaders, but not higher-ranking Palestinian figures. But that
would draw harsh criticism and, possibly, counterattacks.

"Separation": Israel would draw a border and seal off the resultant
hundreds of miles of rugged frontier with minefields, electronic fences,

patrols or other means. It's a huge job, but "there's no comparing the
cost of erecting such a barrier with the damage" of endless bombings in
Israel, said Arab affairs expert Dan Schueftan. Critics ask how Israel
will defend remote Jewish settlements left on the Palestinian side.

Some believe the Palestinians will eventually run out of steam.

"The name of the game will be who has more perseverance," said Brig.
Gen.
Ron Kitrey, Israel's military spokesman.

LOAD-DATE: March 6, 2001

_



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:11 EST 2001
Article: 259346 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA86648.63292DB7@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Zionism-as-racism furor threatens to engulf UN : Globe & Mail
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 152
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:12:41 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.87
X-Trace: news3.atl 984114667 66.20.149.87 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:11:07 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:11:07 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175503 soc.culture.palestine:113453 soc.culture.usa:606314 soc.culture.canada:259346


http://www.globeandmail.com/gam/International/20010308/UZIONM.html


Zionism-as-racism furor threatens to engulf UN

                      STEPHANIE NOLEN

                      Thursday, March 8, 2001

                      A decade after the United Nations repealed
                      what was arguably its most troublesome
                      resolution -- the 1975 equation of Zionism with
                      racism -- Arab and Muslim countries are
                      threatening to put it back on the UN agenda.

                      A senior UN official said yesterday that the
                      Zionism-is-racism issue is the most explosive of
                      several incendiary matters threatening to derail
                      the UN World Conference Against Racism in
                      South Africa in August.

                      "Thus far I have not seen it come into any
                      official document, but it's obviously an issue in
                      the background [and] there are some people
                      pressing for that kind of language to be used at
                      the conference," the official said.

                      A resolution that "condemned Zionism as a
                      threat to world peace and security" and "a form
                      of racism and racial discrimination" was passed
                      75 votes to 35 by the UN General Assembly in
                      1975, against a backdrop of conflict about oil
                      prices and with heavy pressure from the Eastern
                      Bloc and Third World supporters of the
                      Palestinians.
                      The resolution stayed on the books -- and was
                      one of the prime reasons for the erosion of U.S.
                      support for the UN -- until 1991, when it was
                      repealed by a vote of 111 to 25.

                      Generally, Zionism is the belief that Jews have
                      the right to a state of their own in Palestine.
                      Those who believe it is racist argue that Judaism
                      is a religion, and that to give Jews, regardless
of
                      where they are born, an intrinsic right to a
                      homeland in what is now Israel discriminates
                      against Palestinian Christians and Muslims
                      indigenous to the region.

                      The argument that Zionism is racist has popped
                      up in UN circles periodically since 1991 --
                      pushed by Lebanon and Syria, for example,
                      when they opposed giving consultative status to
                      Hadassah, the women's Zionist organization,
                      last year at UNESCO, the UN cultural agency.

                      But the fighting that has raged in the West Bank
                      and Gaza Strip since September (killing at least
                      360 Palestinians and 65 Israelis) has given it a
                      new lease on life.

                      It resurfaced at a recent meeting of Arab
                      non-governmental organizations preparing for
                      the conference. It was also discussed at official
                      preparatory meetings in Tehran. Conference
                      organizers are hoping it stays in the margins in
                      South Africa.

                      "It becomes a question of whether people are
                      so angry with unfolding events that it would be
                      put on the table," the UN official said, adding
                      that any country or bloc that did raise it would
                      do so conscious of its "destructive force."

                      Jewish groups are already bracing themselves.
                      "Without a doubt, there will be at this
                      conference a strong lobby to raise this
                      resolution yet again," said Karen Mock,
                      president of B'nai Brith Canada and a likely
                      Canadian delegate. "There is a large Arab
                      lobby at the UN; a number of countries and a
                      number of votes."

                      Certainly, the issue remains sufficiently divisive

                      -- utterly condemned by Jews and many
                      Western countries, but supported by some
                      extremist groups and developing countries --
                      that it could derail the gathering.

                      "Any equation of Zionism with racism would be
                      catastrophic," said David Malone, president of
                      the International Peace Academy in New York
                      and a former Canadian ambassador to the UN.
                      "No single measure adopted by the UN . . . has
                      done the institution more damage than
                      Zionism-is-racism."

                      He said any introduction of the idea to the
                      conference would have a similarly harmful
                      effect, turning a potentially constructive global
                      push against racism "into an ugly and ideological
                      slugfest. . . . This deserves to be suffocated
                      near birth; to be killed early."

                      He thinks it is unlikely that many countries
                      would be willing to formally advance the
                      resolution, even in the context of frustration
                      over the recent fighting in the Middle East.

                      A spokesman for Hedy Fry, Canada's
                      Secretary of State for Multiculturalism who will
                      lead the Canadian delegation to South Africa,
                      said Canada would condemn any move to
                      equate Zionism with racism, and that Ms. Fry
                      believes most participants in the conference
                      sincerely hope to see the meetings succeed.

                      The last two world conferences on racism -- in
                      1978 and 1983 -- were considered failures,
                      producing no consensus statement and stalling
                      on issues such as race-related refugee crises
                      and compensation for slavery.

                      The compensation issue threatens to loom large
                      again at this conference; both Afro-descended
                      peoples and indigenous peoples around the
                      world are organizing on the issue of monetary
                      compensation, which seems certain to be a
                      major source of North-South tension.
                      Immigration has dominated discussions at
                      European preparatory meetings, while the
                      question of caste is being hotly debated in Asia.

                      David Matas, a Winnipeg human-rights lawyer
                      who has attended many global conferences,
                      said he did not think a Zionism-is-racism
                      resolution would make it to the conference in
                      South Africa.

                      "But a resolution against racism will condemn
                      every kind of racism [except] anti-Semitism,
                      because of anti-Israel bias," he said. "To
                      acknowledge the existence of anti-Semitism is
                      to acknowledge the need for Israel. The big
                      problem in South Africa will be to discuss
                      anti-Semitism at all." 





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:11 EST 2001
Article: 259372 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA92D28.AB8F840E@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Dr. Sumaya Farhat-Naser denied right to travel to US
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 151
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:21:13 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news2.atl 984165572 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:19:32 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:19:32 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175548 soc.culture.israel:328855 soc.culture.usa:606509 soc.culture.canada:259372 soc.culture.british:554886

Thank God for a written constitution.  In this country the right to
travel
is written into the constitution.  Of course, Arab rights in Israel
are contingent on the whim of the Jewish majority in all cases.
Dr. Farhat Naser was to speak at a conference in the US.
And, of course, Israel would be embarrassed by the truth
coming from Arab mouths.  So....
RLA

ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY.



The message consists of two parts. In the first I provide some minimal
biographical details concerning Professor Sumaya Farhat-Naser. The
second
part speaks for itself.

xxxxx xxxxxxx

PART I: Biographical details

Dr. Sumaya Farhat-Naser / Jerusalem Center for Women director; professor

of botany at Birzeit University; honorary doctorate from University of
Munster, 1989; recipient Dr. Bruno-Kreisky prize for human rights, 1995


Die Mount Zion Foundation ist eine kirchliche gemeinn?tzige Stiftung mit

Sitz in Luzern. Ihr Zweck ist die Auszeichnung von Personen, die sich
entweder im juedisch-christlichen Dialog oder im Trialog der drei
Abrahamsreligionen Judentum, Christentum und Islam Verdienste erworben
haben. Der Preis wurde zum ersten Mal im Jahre 1987 verliehen.
Bisherige Preistraeger  waren:
1987: Dr. Mahmoud Abassi und Sr. Rose-Therese Sant
1989: David Grossmann
1991: Elisheva Hemker
1993: Dr.  Kirsten Stoffregen-Pedersen ("Schwester Abraham")
1995: Dalia und Jeheskel Landau  und Elias und Heyam Shakur
1997: Sumaya Farhat- Naser und Yizchak Frankenthal  <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
1999: Shmuel Toledano und Asscad Araidy

PART II:
Subject: [neah] Palestinian Women's Voice for Peace Silenced

Palestinian Woman's Voice for Peace Is Silenced on International Women's
Day,
2001

Sumaya Farhat-Naser, the director of the Jerusalem Center for Women (Bat

Shalom's Palestinian partner in the Jerusalem Link) will not be
traveling this
week to San Francisco.  She was scheduled to keynote the Global Fund for

Women's Celebration of International Women's Day on March 8th.   Having
been
denied a travel permit (the current situation for all Palestinians),
Sumaya
accepted an offer of assistance from members of Bat Shalom's board of
directors to intervene with the Israeli Foreign Ministry on her
behalf.  After more than a week of negotiations with Israeli officials,
the best they could offer Sumaya was travel to San Francisco for one day
-
March 8th - followed by an immediate return home.

Needless to say, Terry Greenblatt, Bat Shalom's director and Sumaya's
co-keynote speaker, did not face such obstacles to traveling abroad.
Terry will be in the United States for two weeks - without restriction.

Should not the host country - in this case,the United States - make its
own
decision as to who should enter its borders,and for how long? Evidently
not.
It is hard to comprehend how, even according to I.D.F. security
guidelines,
Sumaya would pose a "security" threat.  A married women with teen-aged
children, a university professor in the sciences, a Global Fund for
Women
board member, she is the recipient of many international awards for the
work
she does on behalf of peace.

However, the real issue here is not "security" but rather the desire
by the state of Israel to extend the policy of "closure" and
intimidation beyond the cities and villages of the Occupied Territories
to
the entire world.   In Sumaya's words, "Restriction on my movement and
on
my very being? This is something I can never accept. It is a matter of
principle, and thus a part of my struggle towards
liberation. Enough is the occupation in my own native land and in my
home, but
never can I agree to an Israeli occupation that extends all over the
globe. It is insulting and goes beyond all sense of human dignity!"

Sumaya's talk on March 8th was to have been on the theme "women as
peacemakers."  While we are still trying to exert whatever influence we
have, the prospects for an unrestricted travel permit for Sumaya are
negligible.  It seems appropriate on this International Women's Day to
heed
Hanan Ashrawi's inspirational call to all women working in peace
processes:
"We share the feeling of personal responsibility and accountability
toward
those who support each other.  There is no big boss to reward you with a
pat on
the back.  The reward is the woman who tells you, 'You have spoken on my

behalf, you were my voice when I was silenced.  You protected my
rights.  I
trust you."

Bat Shalom suggests that you commemorate this International Women's Day
by raising your voice as an ally to a woman and an organization of
peace.
Whatever resources are at your disposal, wherever and however you do
your
work for social and political change - do something on March 8th that
ensures
silence will not prevail.

For those who would like to send messages of solidarity to Sumaya,
please direct
them to the Jerusalem Center for Women's email address:  jcw@palnet.com
--

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bat Shalom is a feminist peace organization working toward a just
peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors.  Bat Shalom, together
with The Jerusalem Center for Women, a Palestinian women's peace
organization, comprise The Jerusalem Link.  Visit our web site for
more information and our latest activities: http://www.batshalom.org

We gratefully accept contributions to help support our work.  Checks
in any currency can be mailed to Bat Shalom, POB 8083, Jerusalem
91080, Israel.  Tel: +972-2-563 1477; Fax: +972-2-561 7983.  See our
web site for information about tax-deductible contributions or bank
transfers.

To subscribe to Bat Shalom's newsletter, please reply by e-mail with
the word "Subscribe" in the subject line.  To unsubscribe, please
write  "Unsubscribe" in the subject line.








From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:11 EST 2001
Article: 259373 of soc.culture.canada
Message-ID: <3AA92EFF.97968445@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Matt Giwer: disgusting troll
References: <3AA2F365.D3C50118@bellsouth.net> <987ftb$775$1@news.tht.net> <3AA82DCD.2AB55FD1@bellsouth.net> <98b6av$3pt$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <98b6o4$uhg$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 79
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:29:03 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news2.atl 984166043 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:27:23 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:27:23 EST
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!stueberl.r-kom.de!news.netcologne.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175551 soc.culture.british:554893 soc.culture.canada:259373 soc.culture.usa:606513

And same to you Mr. McVay.  You are disgusting in your attacks.
I never agree with anyone all the time, and Giwer is no exception.
He is generally ontarget when he speaks about Zionists and their
sympathizers, of whom I note you are one.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <98b6av$3pt$1@neptunium.btinternet.com>,
> William Black  wrote:
> >
> >Roger Alexander  wrote in message
> >news:3AA82DCD.2AB55FD1@bellsouth.net...
> >> Mr. McVay is spamming the NG.  He repeats this defamation of the poster
> >> time after time after time, and since he has it on a file, it takes him
> >not time
> >> at all
> >> to put it forth.  He is to be castigated for doing it, and if it continues
> >I will
> >> take it up
> >> with his ISP.
> >
> >But the shit Giwer needs persecuting,  the truth is no defamation.
>
> Mr. Giwer isn't being persecuted, he's being exposed. He is, without
> question, a troll of the worst sort, and, whether Mr. Alexander likes
> it or not, I will continue to warn others.
>
> Here is a quote from the man Mr. Alexander has chosen to defend. It is
> but one of _hundreds_ of similar vomitings:
>
> "Right on, fat broad. Do you have do clean up McVay with your lips
> also? What a stupid fat broad. ... The only way you got your title is
> by laying McVay and you know it. You have no other qualifications. You
> contribute nothing. You accept only sperm from a thing." (Matt Giwer,
> June 22, 1996)
>
> Mr. Alexander finds this man "intelligent." I find him disgusting -
> engaging in discourse with Mr. Giwer is a complete waste of time.
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
> IBM and the Holocaust: The Strategic Alliance between Nazi Germany
>     and America's Most Powerful Corporation, by Edwin Black
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609607995/thenizkorproject/
>              The Nizkor Project: http://www.nizkor.org



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:12 EST 2001
Article: 259377 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA93205.BC5A904B@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Conrad Black accuses one of his reporters of "blood libel"
References: <3AA2F365.D3C50118@bellsouth.net> <3AA50328.716517F8@bellsouth.net> <1ipbatgs7qph8d30l2mj1stu755fps2t7t@4ax.com> <3AA6EDF4.2209B8A7@tampabay.rr.com> <987ftb$775$1@news.tht.net> <3AA82DCD.2AB55FD1@bellsouth.net> <98b6av$3pt$1@neptunium.btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 25
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:41:57 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news3.atl 984166816 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:40:16 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:40:16 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175560 soc.culture.british:554897 soc.culture.canada:259377 soc.culture.usa:606522

Indeed?  Giwer needs persecuting?  on whose authority?
Has the ADL sent out the bull?  Could I see a copy?
RLA

William Black wrote:

> Roger Alexander  wrote in message
> news:3AA82DCD.2AB55FD1@bellsouth.net...
> > Mr. McVay is spamming the NG.  He repeats this defamation of the poster
> > time after time after time, and since he has it on a file, it takes him
> not time
> > at all
> > to put it forth.  He is to be castigated for doing it, and if it continues
> I will
> > take it up
> > with his ISP.
>
> But the shit Giwer needs persecuting,  the truth is no defamation.
>
> --
> William Black
> ------------------
> On time, on budget, or works;
> Pick any two from three



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:12 EST 2001
Article: 259378 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA933CA.D39E4D41@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.australia
Subject: THOUSANDS RALLY WORLDWIDE TO DEMAND REFUGEES' RIGHT TO RETURN
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 83
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 13:49:30 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news1.atl 984167270 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:47:50 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:47:50 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175562 soc.culture.israel:328862 soc.culture.usa:606525 soc.culture.canada:259378 soc.culture.british:554899 soc.culture.australia:21234

For Immediate Release
6 March 2001

THOUSANDS RALLY WORLDWIDE TO DEMAND REFUGEES' RIGHT TO RETURN

On 7 April 2001, thousands of Palestinians and people of conscience will

take part in marches and rallies to demand implementation of the right
of
Palestinian refugees to return to homes and lands from which theywere
expelled.

Marches and rallies will take place in New York (US) and other cities
including those in Palestine, Canada, Spain and Australia. Protestors
will
call for an end to five decades of exile and demand that Palestinian
refugees be permitted to return to their properties and homes of origin.

These events will coincide with the fifty-third anniversary of the
massacre
of Palestinian civilians committed by Zionist forces in the village of
Deir
Yassin.

Organizers intend to draw the public's attention to the human rights
abuses
and suffering inflicted on the Palestinian people. They also plan to
send a
strong signal of support to Palestinians in territories occupied since
1948
and 1967. More than three hundred and fifty Palestinian civilians have
been
killed, and over 11,000 injured by Israeli occupation forces in the past

few months. Many of those injured and killed are children.

The April 7 marches and rallies follow from those successfully held in
September 2000 simultaneously in Washington DC, London, Lebanon and
Palestine. These events, spearheaded by Al-Awda, The Palestine Right to
Return Coalition, are co-sponsored and endorsed by thousands of
individuals
and over one hundred and fifty organizations.

Palestinian refugees, numbering more than 5 million in this year 2001,
represent one of the oldest and largest refugee populations in the
world.
Their suffering is magnified by Israel's ongoing denial of their right
to
repatriation and restitution, as required by international law and UN
Resolution 194.

Among the confirmed speakers for the forthcoming rally in New York City
are
Dr. Souheil Natour, Muna Hamze, Dr. Sami el-Aryan, Rafael Cancel
Miranda,
Sarah Flounders and son of Deir Yassin massacre survivors Abbas Hamidah.

The rally will also include a statement by George Habash former
Secretary
General of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.
Internationally renowned musicians Marcel Khalife and Simon Shaheen have

been invited to take part.

For further rally related information, please visit
http://al-awda.org:

For media interviews, please visit our Press Room at
http://al-awda.org/pressroom.htm

To help defray costs associated with the rally, please address
tax-deductibel donations to:

Al-Awda - Palestine Right To Return Coalition-USA
PO Box 401
Hummelstown, Pa 17036
Fax: (717)832-1123
Email: prrc@mail.com
WWW: http://al-awda.org






From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:12 EST 2001
Article: 259381 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA936A5.AD7E1268@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA
References: <3A9DADA9.F70FB14F@bellsouth.net> <3AA77788.10487DF1@coqui.net> <3AA824DB.BD732564@sinectis.com.ar> <989chg$iug$1@news.tht.net> <3AA84022.E4C18204@bellsouth.net> <3AA921B5.21170BBF@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 55
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:01:41 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news1.atl 984168002 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:00:02 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:00:02 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175563 soc.culture.palestine:113482 soc.culture.usa:606528 soc.culture.canada:259381 soc.culture.british:554901



Martin Goldstein wrote:

> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > "Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:
> >
> > > In article <3AA824DB.BD732564@sinectis.com.ar>,
> > > Zahra   wrote:
> > > >Everything that is of no convenience to zionist is qualified as antisemitic!!!
> > > >The truth is taha YOU ARE THIEVES, and some day you'll have to give us back
> > > >what is ours.Truth is not antisemitic, it's only truth.
> > >
> > > ...which means, of course, that, in the fevered imagination of Mr.
> > > Alexander, roughly half of America's Jews are thieves.
> > >
> > > Mr. Alexander should tell us how many of the world's Jews _he_ thinks
> > > are Zionists... for some reason, he's avoided the question like the
> > > plague.
> >
> > And here I thought you had no truck with Israel and Zionism.  YOu always said
> > you had the Holocaust as your task, and weren't involved with the other.
> > Wassamatta wit du have you run out of other things to do?
> > RLA
>
> ROGER,   ANSWER HIS QUESTION !!!!!!

In my family, I have the reputation of knowing everything.  The reason is simple.
Whenever I don't know the answer to a question, I just say : "I don't know."
I have no idea how many Jews are Zionists.  How in fact would I gain
an estimate?  It should be clear that a lot of Jews support Israel.  Does
that make them Zionists?  I don't think so.  Indeed, the first question is
what does one mean by Zionist?  I rather use as my working rule that
a person who is Jewish, lives in Israel, and supports the oppression of
Palestinians with the end in view of taking the rest of Palestine is a Zionist.
The very fact that a government headed by a heinous war criminal
succeeds the government run by another such criminal means at the least
that a majority of Israeli Jews are Zionists or pretty brainwashed by
those who are.  Outside Israel, there are numerous groups which
purport to represent Jews.  Most of those in the US are overtly
supportive of Israel.  (There are a few, like Torah from Dixie in
Atlanta which don't seem infected with the cult.) How many of the
members are supportive is anyone's guess.  And the degree to which
they support Israel is also important.  I would guess, and it is only
a guess, that as the details of the nauseous, horrible oppression
gets through to American and other Jews world wide that their
native morality will overcome their support for the murderous regime.

I have a question of my own.  Why do you think you have the right
to shout at me and demand that I do something?
You are truly a jerk.
In the language I used to use, you are sucks.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:13 EST 2001
Article: 259382 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA9382F.700750B0@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada
Subject: REPORT ON THE TOUR OF JEFF HALPER AND SALIM SHAWAMREH TO CANADA AND THE 
 US: THE NEED FOR FOLLOW-UP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 359
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:08:15 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news2.atl 984168396 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:06:36 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:06:36 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175564 soc.culture.palestine:113483 soc.culture.usa:606529 soc.culture.israel:328866 soc.culture.canada:259382


REPORT ON THE TOUR OF JEFF HALPER AND SALIM SHAWAMREH TO CANADA AND THE
US: THE NEED FOR FOLLOW-UP

(Submitted for Discussion by Jeff Halper, 2.27.01)

Jeff Halper 

Between January 25-February 20, 2001, Salim and I crossed Canada from
Halifax, through Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Edmonton, Vancouver and
until
Victoria. The tour was entitled "Towards a Just and Viable Peace? A View

>From the Ground."  I appeared as the Coordinator of the Israeli
Committee
Against House Demolitions and editor of NEWS FROM WITHIN, Salim as a
Palestinian activist whose West Bank home has been demolished twice by
the
Israeli authorities.  The trip was initiated by Maxine Kaufman-Lacusta
and
sponsored by a large number of national and local organizations.  Salim
and
I also spoke in Seattle, and I also held a strategy session with Jewish
activists in San Francisco.  We conducted a similar trip throughout the
US
last year, and I have spoken often in Europe and elsewhere.

The purpose of the trip was two-fold.  First, we wanted to raise the
issue
of the ongoing Occupation and the inexorable movement towards apartheid
as
an overriding concern.  Using a map that I developed showing the "Matrix
of
Control" that Israel has laid over the Occupied Territories since 1967
(and
continues to expand and strengthen at a steady rate), I argued that the
essential issue determining the viability and degree of sovereignty of a

Palestinian state was control, not simply territory.  Using slides,
Salim
presented the repeated demolition of his home by Israeli authorities,
emphasizing both the human tragedy of the Occupation and how the
mechanisms
- bureaucratic as well as military - work in daily Palestinian life.
The
contribution of our presentation was to bring to light the reality "on
the
ground," the accumulative effect of Israel's 33 years of "creating
facts,"
as an essential balance to evaluating the situation solely according to
the
more visible political "peace process."  The facts on the ground clearly

demonstrate that there never really was a "peace process," that in fact
Israel never intended to permit the emergence of a truly viable and
independent Palestinian state.  They also reveal that Israel only needs
5-10% of the territory to fully control it.  Given the Matrix of Control

(Areas A, B and C, the closure, settlement blocs, the by-pass highway
system, border controls, constraints on economic development and more),
the
"offer" of 90-95% suddenly appears far less "generous."

The second aim of the trip - and the one of most relevance to this
report -
was to network with the many grassroots groups across Canada and the US,
so
as to create an effective international lobby in support of the
activities
of the peace forces in Israel/Palestine.  Salim and I emphasized to them

that international support is crucial.  The Palestinian people is
shouldering the struggle, the suffering, and Israeli peace forces (the
"confusion" of some them aside) are trying to support them in any way
possible - through resistance activities, protests, solidarity actions
and
information campaigns; through the Israeli courts and, where possible,
the
political system; sometimes jointly with Palestinian organizations,
sometimes in our own "street."  But our efforts on the ground will be
effective only if supported internationally.  A just peace is not going
to
emerge from within Israel.  It will come only when international
organizations rally their public opinion, their national political
leaders,
their media and the institutions of the international system (UN
agencies,
the World Court, Amnesty, etc.), when pressures to end the Occupation
and
conform to international standards of human rights and justice become
too
much for Israel to resist.  We call this the "pincher strategy:"

As a start to defining how the international community can effectively
support resistance efforts in Israel/Palestine, I am setting out some of

the ideas that emerged from the strategizing sessions of our trip, as
well
as initiatives that are already underway.  Needless to say, these
suggestions are designed to "get the ball rolling," to generate
discussion,
more networking and planning.  They are not meant to be all-inclusive.

AN INTEGRATED SET OF CAMPAIGNS

The most positive and effective campaign would probably be an
International
Campaign for a Viable Palestinian State.  Like the case of South Africa,

which mobilized international support through the slogan "One Man, One
Vote" (though the language might be changed today), a campaign such as
this
could rally progressive forces everywhere.  But while the ANC had a
vision
of a democratic, unitary state that was eventually achieved, Palestinian

goals are much more open-ended.  Some aspire to one democratic state in
all
of Palestine-Israel, others to a bi-national state in the whole country,

still others to the two-state solution, while yet others still aspire to
a
regional confederation or have other conceptions.  Many would argue that

the two-state solution is a necessary but transitory stage towards a
wider
political entity, especially if the interests of the refugees are taken
into account.  Regardless, there seems to be a fear or hesitation among
Palestinians to getting locked into a reality that might preclude
further
evolution.  For this reason, a Campaign for a Viable Palestinian State,
while making the most sense organizationally, has never been suggested
and
does not seem likely to be so in the near future.

AN OVERALL INTERNATIONAL CAMPAIGN TO END THE OCCUPATION AND ATTAIN A
JUST
AND VIABLE PEACE

Stepping down one step, therefore, two overlapping and overarching
campaigns suggest themselves: An International Campaign to End the
Occupation, and An International Campaign for a Just and Viable Peace.
Both of these campaigns hit at the core issues: the existence of an
occupation that precludes the emergence of a viable and truly sovereign
Palestinian state; and a peace based on justice and the Palestinians'
right
of self-determination.

It is crucial, I think, to keep the focus on the Occupation.  That
should
be our mantra: Occupation, Occupation, Occupation.  (Or to paraphrase
Clinton: "It's the Occupation, Stupid!")  Thus an overarching Campaign
to
End the Occupation and Find a Just and Viable Peace might be the common
framework linking all our sub-campaigns and various activities focuses
on
particular aspects of the Occupation.  Materials could be developed
(such
as my map to the cause) that lays clearly before the public the cruel
realities of the Occupation and its basic elements (conceived as a
"Matrix
of Control" or in other useful, comprehensive and comprehensible
concepts).
 Target populations should be identified (political leaders, media and
opinion-shapers, students, labor unions, women's organizations,
cross-community coalitions of Arabs and Jews or Jews, Muslims and
Christians, the general public, etc.), with appropriate materials and
activities geared specifically to them.  Lobbying, protests,
informational
campaigns, conferences and the like should be employed.


SUB-CAMPAIGNS

There are many issues that must be addressed, and not all can fit under
the
rubric of "End the Occupation."  Not losing our focus on this overall
goal,
many ideas for sub-campaigns arose in the course of our meetings.

--  A CAMPAIGN TO FREEZE ALL ISRAELI CONSTRUCTION IN THE OCCUPIED
TERRITORIES (including East Jerusalem).  Since 1967 Israel has pursued a

relentless campaign to create irreversible "facts on the ground" that
would
foreclose the possibility of a viable, independent Palestinian state.
These efforts have only been redoubled during the last seven years of
the
Oslo "peace process."  Sharon, the architect of Israeli control over the

Occupied Territories, will attempt to foreclose Palestinian independence

forever by constructing massive settlement blocs, by-pass roads,
barriers
of "separation," checkpoints, military facilities and more.  A Campaign
to
Freeze All Israeli Construction would oppose this ongoing process of
annexation-and-separation - apartheid.  It would call for an end to all
construction as a necessary STAGE in eventually rolling back the
Occupation
in its entirety.  That is why it is a sub-campaign of a wider "End the
Occupation" strategy.

--  A CAMPAIGN AGAINST ISRAEL'S HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS (part of an
"accountability project" to hold Israel to norms of international law
and
conduct).  A key element in all our work should be the demand that
Israel
conform to international human rights law, UN Resolutions and norms of
international conduct just as any other state is expected to do so.
Although it has signed on most human rights conventions (such as the
Fourth
Geneva Convention which protects civilians in occupied territories -
though
not the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty), it does not apply them.
Human
rights is a very powerful instrument at our disposal.  They are
universal,
so that Israel cannot hide behind charges of "anti-semitism" when
demands
come that they be applied, and they expose the fundamental injustice of
the
Occupation.  They also carry potential for sanctions.  The US has human
rights standards attached to it granting of economic and military aid.
Although those standards are applied selectively, as we know, they
nevertheless give us a basis for mounting a campaign against such aid to

Israel.  It also counters Israel's attempt to gain the "high moral
ground"
against the Palestinians, who are cast as terrorists.  "State terrorism"

should become an essential target of our activities.  Divestment, making

Israel accountable for its attempts to illegally sell settlement
products
under its own name, and initiatives in international human rights courts

are all ideas that arose in the course of our trip.  A CAMPAIGN AGAINST
ISRAELI APARTHEID was also suggested in several places during our trip.
"Apartheid" is an accurate term. Israel, an ethnocracy, itself describes

its policy towards Palestinians in terms of "separation," "apartheid" in

Afrikaans.  And use of that terms can galvanize attention on this
fundamental element of the Occupation very quickly.

--  A CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE USE OF US ARMS AGAINST PALESTINIAN CIVILIANS.

>From "rubber" bullets to Apache helicopters equipped with laser
missiles.
Self-explanatory.  Another part of an "accountability project."

--  Other sub-campaigns include campaigns against the Closure, against
house demolitions, against the wholesale up-rooting of olive and other
fruit trees, and around other key issues.  Campaigns of non-violent
resistance could be planned with groups such as Rapprochement in Beit
Sahour or ICAHD in Israel.  Of course the on-going Campaign for the
Right
of Return should be integrated with this set of strategies.

(One suggestion: we should all lay off "Zionism."  This is an issue that

leads us nowhere, and plays virtually no role in the common struggles of

Palestinian and Israel peace forces on the ground.  This is not to say
that
Zionist ideology and institutions are not parts of the conflict, but
that
the conflict should be seen as a POLITICAL conflict between an occupying

power and a people aspiring to independence.  Keeping the focus on
Israel
rather than Zionism provides a much more solid and effective basis for
organizing and resistance.  It also permits wider coalition
possibilities.
In my humble opinion, "Zionism" is a red flag that only detracts from
our
efforts and deflects discussion from the real issues before us.  To keep

the focus and the struggle political, we should, in my opinion, relate
to
Israel the state.)

NETWORKING

To make the "pincher strategy" effective, networking is essential.  The
tasks of those of us "on the ground" in Palestine/Israel would revolve
around generating resistance activities that call for international
support, identifying issues around which campaigns or protests could be
mounted and providing information to international support groups, as
well
as hosting visiting groups or individuals.  Extensive networks of
organizations exist throughout North America, Europe and elsewhere, and
attempts should be made to gather and disseminate lists of contact
people
that can be used to mobilize these networks.  We should all work to
strengthen our communication and coordination.  Perhaps we should
develop
an international directory of organizations and individuals concerned
with
these issues, as well as a steering committee composed of
representatives
of international groups, Palestinian and Israeli activists.  I am not
suggesting that we OVER-organize.  Working coalitions or networks are
fine,
and each locality should develop its own agendas, programs and
leadership.
Nevertheless, we should be more in touch and more coordinated than we
are.
There should be a mechanism for generating new campaigns and protests as

the need arises.  Even ways to facilitate international brain-storming.


RESOURCES

Needless to say, grassroots organizations in Palestine/Israel are
resource-poor - especially the Palestinian ones.  I am not referring
only
to financial resources, although these are important too (a third
purpose
of our trip was fund-raising).  I am referring also to professional
resources.  Many people we met had skills sorely lacking among our
organizations: graphic designers and artists, shapers of informational
materials (educators and advertising people), people with computer
skills,
organizers, media consultants, experts in intercultural communication
and
mediation, businesspeople and others).  If we all shared these skills,
and
especially found ways to make them available to grassroots groups in
Palestine/Israel, our activities would be much more effective.  We might

think of some kind of international clearinghouse where people can get
together - cyberly, and perhaps personally at times - to advance
particular
campaigns or actions.


These are some of the thoughts that arose as Salim and I were meeting
activists across Canada and the US.  We hope they generate discussion,
ideas, and most importantly, effective actions.  Consider us partners
and
resource-people in our joint endeavors.  ICAHD together with the
Alternative Information Center is currently developing materials for
campaigns against the occupation.  We should all join in planning these
international campaigns.  I can be reached at , and
Salim Shawamreh (and Issa Samandar, Coordinator of the Palestinian Land
Defense Committee) at .


In Peace,

Jeff Halper
Coordinator
Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions (ICAHD)





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:13 EST 2001
Article: 259383 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!news.iac.net!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA938FD.9E483552@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Israeli businessmen suspected of ties to Peruvian money laundering 
 scheme
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 82
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:11:41 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news2.atl 984168605 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:10:05 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:10:05 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175565 soc.culture.israel:328867 soc.culture.usa:606532 soc.culture.canada:259383

Israel has become the world's center of money laundering, as well
as prostitution.  Crime and Israel are synonymous.
RLA

http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/article.asp?mador=2&datee=3/5/01&id=112293

Ha'aretz | Monday, March 5, 2001

Israeli businessmen suspected of ties to Peruvian money laundering
scheme

By Aryeh Dayan Ha'aretz Correspondent

The funds deposited in Swiss branches of Israeli banks by former
Peruvian spy chief Vladimoros Montesinos were bribery payments
he received from Israeli businessmen as part of a deal for the sale
of Russian fighter aircraft to Peru's armed forces, according to the
special prosecutor appointed by the Peruvian government to
investigate corruption charges against Montesinos and the country's
former president, Alberto Fujimori.

In a telephone interview from his office in Lima, Dr. Jose Carlos Ugaz
told Ha'aretz that, "the findings of the investigation so far indicate
that
Montesinos was closely connected to a group of businessmen - some
Israeli and some Jews with Peruvian citizenship - who acted for him in
international arms deals, from which he collected illegal commissions."

These commissions were deposited in various banks in Switzerland,
including branches of Bank Leumi and the First International Bank of
Israel group. Ugaz said that Swiss deposits totaled some $70 million,
although he was unable to say how much of this total landed in the
Swiss branches of Israeli banks.

Ugaz mentioned the names of several Israeli businessmen allegedly
involved in arms deals with Montesinos. "An Israeli lawyer named
Mordechai Mincher is the one who represented Montesinos at the
Israeli banks in Switzerland and he is also the person upon whose
recommendation the Israeli banks in Switzerland agreed to open
these accounts," Ugaz said.

Attorney Mincher, who served as a legal adviser to the Eisenberg
group during the 1970s and 1980s, responded to these charges by
stating that he represents a number of clients in Peru in business
related to the capital markets, but that he has not been involved in
any arms deals with Peru.

"Another Israeli businessman, by the name of Roni Lerner, was the
intermediary in the deal in which three MiG-29 aircraft were
purchased in Russia in 1998 for the Peruvian army," Ugaz added.
"The illegal commissions paid to Lerner and Montesinos under this
deal were deposited in the accounts Mincher opened for Montesinos
in Switzerland," the special prosecutor said.

Lerner told Ha'aretz that, "I do not have any connection to the sale
of MiG aircraft to Peru. I don't know Vladimoros Montesinos and
never met with him." He added that, "It was obvious that my name
would come up, but it's a case of an unfortunate coincidence. I
have no control over what is happening in Peru today. A witch-hunt
is going on there."

The investigation is now also focusing on whether Montesinos
deposited money in banks in Israel, in addition to their branches in
Switzerland. "I still don't know the answer to this question," Ugaz
said, "but I suspect that Montesinos indeed deposited funds in Israel."
He explained that he bases this supposition on the fact that the
investigation has revealed, "the very closest of ties between
Montesinos and Israelis."

Former president Fujimori left Peru in November and is living in Japan,
but the whereabouts of Montesinos is unknown, following his abortive
attempt to win political asylum in Panama in late October.

A videotape showing Montesinos apparently offering a bribe to a
Peruvian lawmaker set off the series of events that led to Fujimori's
political demise. Montesinos, who exerted extensive control over
Peru's military and judiciary, has been accused of ordering death
squads to kill suspected leftist guerrillas.






From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:14 EST 2001
Article: 259384 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA93A97.43DBCE54@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Why you should boycott Estee Lauder products
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 100
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:18:31 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news2.atl 984169017 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:16:57 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:16:57 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175566 soc.culture.israel:328869 soc.culture.lebanon:144693 soc.culture.usa:606538 soc.culture.canada:259384


Assalam Alaykum and Peace,

For those of us on this list (as well as anyone for that matter) who are

concerned about the palestinians' rights to return to their homes and
land,
please pay attention to this post below, especially if you'r an Estee
Lauder, DKNY, Clinique, and others customer...

Wa'Salam Alaykum & Peace, lamia

Estee Lauder & the Palestinians Right to Return


On Wednesday, February 28, American Muslims for Jerusalem (AMJ) lead a
coalition of advocacy organizations in a press conference calling for a
worldwide boycott of cosmetics giant Estee Lauder.

That announcement was prompted by Estee Lauder International Chairman
Ronald Lauder's activities in support of Israeli right-wing extremists.



Estee Lauders products include:
Estee Lauder line of perfume and make-up, Aramis, Clinique, Aveda, DKNY
and
Tommy Hilfegere toiletries products.
Estee Lauder also owns several lines of hair and skin care products and
shops such as M.A.C. and Origins.


Ronald Lauder is the Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major
American Jewish Organizations and President of the Jewish National Fund
(JNF).
JNF is a quasi-government agency whose main function is to legitimize
Israeli's theft of Palestinian land.


In January, Lauder was the key speaker from the US at a rally in
Jerusalem,
organized by right wing Israeli politician Natan Sharansky. The rally
was
organized to oppose the mere consideration of Jerusalem as a negotiation

item. Lauder addressed 300,000 Israeli extremists at the gates of Haram
Al-Sharif (the Noble Sanctuary, one of Islam's three holiest sites).
Some
of the protesters tried to break into the holy site. Khalid Turaani,
AMJ's
Executive Director said "this boycott of Estee Lauder will send a clear
message that people of conscience refuse to do business with
corporations
supporting Israeli apartheid policies which violate
internationally-recognized human rights".
In 1993, Lauder co-founded a think tank called the Shalem Center with
Yoram
Hazony, a former Netanyahu aid. The Israeli Education Ministry has said
the
center is "a research institute whose leanings are extreme right-wing
and
even fascistic." Hebrew University professor Yisrael Bartal describes
Hazony as a right-wing extremist.
A columnist for the Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz (9/14/2000) wrote that
Hazony is a sympathizer of the slain radical Jewish leader Meir Kahane,
who
called for the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel.

The goal of Hazony, wrote the columnist, is to find new ways of
"breathing
life into Kahane's racist, totalitarian, intolerant ideology."
Ronald Lauder's Jerusalem-rally speech came at a time when the Israeli
government was waging a campaign of siege and starvation against the
entire
Palestinian population.
While Mr. Lauder supports some legitimate charitable causes in the US,
he
shows his true colors when abroad by supporting fanatic causes that seek
to
uproot an entire population from its native land.
Lauder is also opposed to permitting Palestinian refugees to return to
their homes. "For Israel to allow these people to return would be
national
suicide," he said in a statement last September.
In contrast, the UN General Assembly has demanded that Israel allow the
Palestinian refugees to return since 1948. "Lauder's opposition to the
return of Palestinian refugees in order to maintain the pure-Jewish
identity of Israel is nothing short of apartheid at its worst" said
Turaani.













From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:14 EST 2001
Article: 259385 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA93BE7.2E90B9EE@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: AMJ CALLS FOR BOYCOTT OF ESTEE LAUDER
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 45
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:24:07 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news1.atl 984169349 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:22:29 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:22:29 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175568 soc.culture.israel:328872 soc.culture.usa:606541 soc.culture.canada:259385 soc.culture.british:554906

Note that this jerk is not only head of the Conference of Presidents
of Major Jewish Organizations (any group which is anything
in the Jewish Community belongs to it) but he is also a Kahanist.
The Jewish community ought to think about who they set up
as their leader.
RLA


AMJ CALLS FOR BOYCOTT OF ESTEE LAUDER

FACE-OFF, OR COSMETIC BOYCOTT
By James Barron, The New York Times, 2/28/01, Page 2, Column 3
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/02/28/nyregion/28BOLD.html

RONALD S. LAUDER, pictured, shunned by the city's Republican leaders
for spending a multimillion-dollar chunk of his fortune on a failed
mayoral campaign in 1989 and by other elected officials for pressing
a term-limits initiative several years later, is now under fire from
the Muslim-American establishment. Some of the largest and most
influential Muslim-American organizations plan to announce a boycott
of Mr. Lauder's businesses, the Estee Lauder Companies, today.

KHALID TURAANI, a spokesman for one of the groups planning the
boycott, American Muslims for Jerusalem, said that Muslims and Arabs
had long been offended by Mr. Lauder's pro-Israeli views, but had not
decided to call for a boycott until Mr. Lauder appeared at the "One
Jerusalem" rally of religious and nationalist Israelis in January.
Mr. Turaani accused Mr. Lauder, who serves as chairman of the
Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish American Organizations,
of "using his name and wealth" to support Israeli hard-liners.

Mr. Lauder's spokeswoman said he was unavailable yesterday and
referred a reporter to MALCOLM I. HOENLEIN, executive vice chairman
of the conference of presidents. Mr. Hoenlein predicted that the
boycott would not only fail but could backfire by inviting similar
actions against companies owned by Muslim-Americans. "To try and
import the Middle East conflict here is absurd," he said.

CONTACT:  American Muslims for Jerusalem
  WEB: http://www.amjerusalem.org/
  E-MAIL: amj@amjerusalem.org
  TEL: 202-548-4200





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar  9 16:10:14 EST 2001
Article: 259386 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA93D84.7A0FB134@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Why we few criticize Israel by Joseph Sobran
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 107
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:31:00 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.135
X-Trace: news1.atl 984169762 208.61.184.135 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:29:22 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:29:22 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175570 soc.culture.israel:328873 soc.culture.usa:606542 soc.culture.canada:259386 soc.culture.british:554907

Why we few criticize Israel

by Joseph Sobran

WASHINGTON - People sometimes ask me why I'm so critical of Israel, as
if I
should be devoting more of my attention to Sri Lanka, or perhaps Zaire.
But
the question is always a little nervous, as it wouldn't be if I were
writing
equally often about Sri Lanka or Zaire.

   I could understand this curiosity if some other small, remote country

were one of the world's four or five military powers; if it received a
quarter of our foreign aid; if it were constantly on our front pages;
and if
its sympathizers regularly occupied much of the op-ed space of The New
York
Times and other major newspapers. But there is only one country of whom
these things are true, and that is Israel.

   Nobody thinks it's odd that there should be 20 columnists who are
apologists for Israel; but apparently it is unfathomable that there
should
be one or two who are critical of Israel.

   But there's another reason that is both personal and professional.
Israel
has a very powerful lobby in this country, with a highly accomplished
propaganda corps. And that lobby is not content with making the case for

Israel and putting fear into nearly all the politicians in Washington,
who
are supposed to be representing the interests of the United States. It
also
tries to shut up opposition in the free press.

   I have felt its pressure. So have Rowland Evans and Robert Novak. So
has
Patrick Buchanan. And a great many newspaper editors.

   We still hear of the fear engendered by Joe McCarthy. But people
talked
freely about that fear even 'at the height of Sen. McCarthy's career. I
believe that someday historians will look back with more wonder about
the
quieter and more paralyzing fear engendered in our own era by domestic
Zionist power. The press was never afraid of Sen. McCarthy; it is very
much
afraid of Israel's U.S. sympathizers.

   One result is that the news we get from Israel is heavily self
censored
and bowdlerized. The average American thinks of Israel as a "democratic"

country whose domestic troubles are due to unruly Arabs. Not one
American
Christian in a hundred realizes that if he lived in Israel, he would be
the
victim of official discrimination forced, like the Soviet Jew, to carry
an
identification card effectively stigmatizing him.

   If Israeli propaganda were true, there would be no need to Quash or
intimidate critics. The very act of trying to silence opposition is a
kind
of confession in itself. Ring Lardner said it well: "'Shut up,' he
explained."

   Is there no case to be made for Israel? Of course there is. I have
made
it myself. I would make it again -- if Israel had not become a threat to

freedom of speech and ethical debate in this country. But when you risk
injury to your career in the U.S. by defending the interests of the
U.S.,
something is seriously wrong. A proper parallel is not with Joe
McCarthy,
who at least was trying to uphold America's position, but with the
publishing industry in New York during the 1930s, when a book critical
of
the Soviet Union stood scant chance of seeing print.

   Suppression is a good tactic, but a bad strategy. In the long run,
the
truth has a way of seeping through. No matter how many clever excuses
you
make for a Yitzhak Shamir, it's not a terribly good idea to have
Americans
identifying Israel with Yitzhak Shamir. Israel was much better off when
Americans identified Israel with Abba Eban -- now in political exile for
his
moderation.

   And it isn't wise, in the long run, to make Americans afraid, in
their
own country, to speak their minds about a foreign country. They will
eventually resent the colossal impudence of it. And the country on whose

behalf the suppression was enacted will bear the consequences.

Joseph Sobran is a nationally syndicated columnist who now maintains a
Website at http://www.sobran.com.





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:31 EST 2001
Article: 259395 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA94EC2.FB84002D@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: The Bully Persists : MacKenzie Paine 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 124
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:44:34 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.88
X-Trace: news2.atl 984174177 66.20.149.88 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:42:57 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:42:57 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175581 soc.culture.israel:328880 soc.culture.usa:606570 soc.culture.canada:259395 soc.culture.british:554926

March 8, 2001
FIRE SIX!
The Bully PersistsMacKenzie Paine

Who is Simon Wiesenthal? I ask because he seems to be a very busy man
these days, or at least those working in his name are very busy. Every
time I log on I seem to have email detailing something or other that Mr.
Wiesenthal’s Center is involved in. One would think that the namesake
for a Museum of Tolerance would be busy promoting tolerance, but such is
not the case. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. The Simon Wiesenthal
Center is actively working to silence organizations around the world,
with the cooperation and apparent approval of our own United States
Government. I took my sons to the Museum of Tolerance at the Simon
Wiesenthal Center over the weekend. I believe in listening to all sides
of a story and wanted to hear the Center’s side. At the end of the
four-hour tour I was verbally attacked, together with a friend, by an
angry mini-mob of high school students. The students used the foulest of
foul language, treated us with contempt, frightened my two sons and
ended their little outburst by chasing our van out of the underground
parking lot. Their teacher was helpless to stop them, although she tried
Admittedly, I brought on the attack by being so bold as to question a
“holocaust survivor” who had just delivered a forty-five minute lecture
to the room full of students and teachers. I simply asked the survivor,
Mrs. Elizabeth Mann, why she had told an entire roomful of
impressionable young people that during WWII the Germans made soap out
of Jewish corpses, when  even the United States Holocaust Memorial
Museum says this is not so. She responded that she disagreed with the
USHMM. How’s that? Differences of opinion are one thing, but arguing in
favor of a fact that was never proven and has been dismissed by
historians as a falsehood is quite another. Especially when one is
addressing students, presumably to educate them, not brainwash them.  I
then asked Mrs. Mann why she had told the audience that the gas chamber
at Auschwitz was a dual-purpose shower room, which with the flip of a
switch could be converted into a homicidal gas chamber. The lethal gas,
she had told us, came out of the showerheads. When I pointed out to her
that all literature regarding Auschwitz describes a room into which the
poison was dropped in granules through holes in the roof, the room
erupted into hisses and boos. Mrs. Mann did not have to respond, saved
by the booing.

Once outside the lecture hall the students called me over to them and
asked
me how I could possibly question such a sweet, elderly woman who had
suffered so much. They accused me of calling her a liar. I was happy to
explain to them, as a mother to my children, that I had not accused her
of lying. I had simply questioned some of the things that she had said.
I looked out into the group and could see fear in some of the faces, as
if they were being confronted by a lunatic with a gun, and I beseeched
them to go to the USHMM’s website and see for themselves what they say
about the soap and Auschwitz. One of the teenagers asked me how I know
that soap wasn’t made at Auschwitz and my friend, a chemist, told them
calmly that it would have been physically  impossible to make soap out
of human fat in the buildings at Auschwitz.

With each of our responses the group became more unruly, sarcastic and
bigoted. Rather than ask responsible questions or make clear arguments,
they resorted to taunting us, calling my friend a Nazi and telling us to
“f___ off.” That is what happens to young people who journey through the
Museum of Tolerance. They become decidedly intolerant of anything
critical of Jews, the “holocaust” or Israel. The entire tour was laced
with anti-Catholic and anti-Christian innuendo, Mrs. Mann’s description
of Germans was stereotypically evil and her recollections were so full
of inconsistencies as to be laughable, but all of this was lost on the
students. They had just
spent four hours being set up to accept anything anyone says about
Jewish
suffering or anti-Semitism

Why are we told that it’s wrong to question anything anyone Jewish tells
us? Why is it anti-Semitic to ask Jews for proof of their claims, just
as we hold non-Jews accountable? Even more important, why are we
allowing our children to be brainwashed by the tens of thousands by the
likes of people like Simon Wiesenthal?

In case you don’t know the background of Mr. Wiesenthal and have bought
into the Hollywood image he has created for himself, it’s worth noting
that, by his own admission, Mr. Wiesenthal was a Communist operative
during WWII. His war record is so murky, with so many different
“official” accounts that some have been lead to wonder if he didn’t
collaborate with the Nazis. It would certainly seem that he has
something to hide, since the story is rarely told the same way twice. He
and the Center which bears his name have a very bad habit of lying.

Both have been denounced by Israeli and US Jewish special interest
groups. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) of B'nai B'rith has
acknowledged that the Wiesenthal Center makes "inaccurate" and
"exaggerated claims." In a 1984 internal memorandum, ADL official Justin
Finger cited a Center fund-raising letter that is "replete with factual
misstatements and exaggerations."(Miles Corwin, "Claims About
Anti-Semitic Wave Hit by B'nai B'rith," Los Angeles Times, Dec. 12,
1984.)

During the Gulf War, Response, the magazine produced by the SWC,
reported that German firms were producing Zyklon B in Iraq to gas
Israelis. It was a lie, of course, but they published it. Even as I
write this, the Simon Wiesenthal Center is hard at work trying to have a
conference on Revisionism and Zionism blocked by the Lebanese
government. They have put pressure on our Congress, which through our
ambassadors, has “warned” the Lebanese government against letting the
conference take place.

Excuse me, but since when does our Congress have the right, the
authority or the audacity to demand that a sovereign nation censor its
citizens and guests? The Simon Wiesenthal Center claims that the
conference will be anti-Semitic. The last I heard, “anti-Semitic” meant
anti-Jewish, which means that our government is involved in trying to
silence other religious groups (Christian and Muslim) over another. So
much for separation of church and state! I have said this before, but I
am going to say it again and again and again. America, we must defend
ourselves! Our children are being systematically brainwashed by known
liars, our tax dollars are partially paying for this anti-Christian,
anti-German, anti-Arab brainwashing and our United States Congress has
become an Israeli lap dog.

Even the Israelis joke that our Congress is Israeli-occupied territory.
Enough is enough! It is time to take back our country. Anyone interested
in joining together to form an AMERICAN organization which will speak
for AMERICANS of ALL religions, please step forward. It is time to go to
Congress and remind them that they are there to work for the people—the
American people—for us!  If you are interested in rolling up your
sleeves and going to work in our own defense, please hit your reply
button, stand up and be counted.




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:31 EST 2001
Article: 259396 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA950A6.92C7FC71@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israeli Soldiers prevented Patriarch Michel Sabbah from entering Ein 
 Arik
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 91
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:52:38 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.88
X-Trace: news2.atl 984174662 66.20.149.88 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:51:02 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:51:02 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175583 soc.culture.israel:328883 soc.culture.usa:606574 soc.culture.canada:259396 soc.culture.british:554928


Israeli Soldiers prevented Patriarch Michel Sabbah from entering Ein
Arik
during a pastoral visit Jerusalem,

Friday 9 March 2001

Israeli soldiers located at the checkpoint on the entrance to the
Village of
Ein Arik near Ramallah prevented this afternoon Patriarch Michel Sabbah,

Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, from entering the mentioned village,
despite
learning who is the Patriarch and seeing his Holy See Diplomatic
passport and
his VIP Card given to His Beatitude by the Israeli Ministry of Religious

Affairs.

It is good to add that the Patriarch, who was accompanied by the parish
priests of Ramallah, was planning to celebrate Mass at the Parish Church
of
Ein Arik this evening.

The Israeli Soldiers at the mentioned Check point refused even to listen
to
explanations provided by Father Giovanni Cinti Parish priest of Ein
Arik, but
obliged him to sit on the floor for sometime before releasing him.
Patriarch
Sabbah couldn’Äôt succeed to enter yesterday also the village of Bir
Zeit
 north of Ramallah, for celebrating Mass, since the village was
disconnected
by Israeli Army from all its surroundings.

We consider that this incident is a clear violation not only to
diplomatic
relations and agreements between the Holy See and the State of Israel,
but a
clear violation of the basic human rights of freedom of movement.

We really wonder if such incidents happen to a senior clergyman, so how
is
the daily life of the regular Palestinian citizens.

We appeal on the International community to make pressures on the State
of
Israel to stop in end the actual siege and closure of almost all the
Palestinian villages and towns cutting it one from another making of it
a
real small prisons in a very big prison which is not legally, morally
and
humanly acceptable.

We are sure that this policy of collective punishment will not lead to
justice and peace, will not end violence they produce nothing tangible
for
Israel or Israelis. They also do not increase security nor hasten the
possibility of a negotiated settlement. Justice and only justice is the
only
solution for a real peace and security. We repeat and call upon all of
our
friends all over the world to make their voices heard to exert the
utmost
pressure upon their governments and the government of Israel to stop
these
illegal measures of collective punishment. Otherwise, we will face the
brink
of disaster.

Fr. Raed Abusahlia
Chancellor, Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem

====

For more about UPDATINGS on what is happening in the Holy Land.

Please visit: www.Al-Bushra.org
Al-Bushra

====================================
Israelis as a group are extraordinarily nasty to Palestinians, even
when they aren't torturing, killing them or tearing up their land and
bulldozing their homes.
Is it any wonder that one is driven to say:

ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY!

RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:32 EST 2001
Article: 259399 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA95783.A6C0FCA2@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Bir Zeit cut off
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 36
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:21:55 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.88
X-Trace: news2.atl 984176419 66.20.149.88 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:20:19 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:20:19 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175587 soc.culture.israel:328887 soc.culture.usa:606587 soc.culture.canada:259399 soc.culture.british:554933

Dear Friends & Cousins:  This is Breaking News!!!

The little University town of Birzeit woke up this
morning to find itself
cut off from the rest of the West Bank.  Mid way
between Ramallah and
Birzeit a deep trench was dug by the Israeli military
occupying forces, and
all the telephone lines of the town were cut off.Its
only remaining entrance
to Ramallah via Surda was the only means of
communications for the rest of
the surrounding villages of Birzeit.  Already the
entrance via Jifna and the
Jalazoun camp have been sealed off.  If this is an
aperatif of the Sharon
Government meal , we dread to think of what the main
course would be.
Please raise your voices to put an end to this brutal
occupation, and let
our people live!!! Samia

================================

This is barbarous behavior, which I guess is normal for a barbarous
people.  But it any other country on the face of the earth were doing
this to another people, there would be intervention.  Not mere words
but war on them, as happened to the Serbs in Bosnia and then
in Kosovo.  It makes you wonder how they live with themselves,
how they reconcile their notion of who they are with what they are
doing.

ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY!

RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:32 EST 2001
Article: 259406 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AA96AE1.529179AB@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british
Subject: Letter to The Globe and Mail : Have you no shame?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 55
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 17:44:33 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.88
X-Trace: news1.atl 984181378 66.20.149.88 (Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:42:58 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:42:58 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175592 soc.culture.palestine:113502 soc.culture.canada:259406 soc.culture.usa:606611 soc.culture.british:554963

Letter to the editor
The Globe and Mail – Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Have you no shame?

Your editorial (It's time to end the intifada - March 9, 2001) is a
betrayal of your journalistic integrity and a violation of your
ethical responsibility.  It misrepresents facts and promotes views
based on known falsehoods.

The Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation of Gaza and the
West Bank, better known by its Arabic word "intifada", is only a form
of resistance to that occupation.  Israel continues that occupation,
which started in June 1967, in defiance of international law and of U
N Security Council resolutions 242, 338 and 1322.  Furthermore,
Israel, the Occupying Power, continues to violate its
responsibilities as stipulated in the Fourth Geneva Convention
through collective punishment measures, home demolitions,
confiscation of lands, building and expanding illegal settlements,
etc. etc.  Resisting that brutal military occupation is an
internationally recognized right of the Palestinian people.  Whether
the intifada started as a spontaneous eruption by people on the
streets or a deliberate strategy designed to remove the Israeli
occupying forces from Gaza and the West Bank, does not alter its very
nature as an act of resistance to the Israeli occupation.  For your
editorial to call it a "crime" is outrageous, to say the least.

Your editorial ought to have called on Israel to end its occupation
immediately, instead of calling on Palestinians not to exercise their
right of resisting that occupation.  To call upon Israelis to stop
their gunfire from tanks, rocket launchers and gun ship helicopters
and to call upon Palestinians to stop their stone-throwing for the
purpose of giving negotiations a chance to resume would be one
thing.  But to demand from Palestinians to stop resisting the Israeli
occupation is to sanction and legitimize such occupation.  However,
to go the extra mile in the direction of misrepresentation and to
describe legitimate resistance as a "crime" is the ultimate in
betrayal by any journalist of the duty for upholding the truth and
for observance of reasonably acceptable ethical standards.  Have you
no shame?

Monzer Zimmo
March 9, 2001
Aylmer, Quebec
(819) 595-9176
Monzer_Zimmo@hotmail.com

====================================
It should be obvious that much of "our" media are really Zionist
sympathizing propaganda sheets.  The answer then falls out,
for the most notable characteristic of Zionists and their
sympathizers is the absence of shame, coupled with a
willingness to lie that puts the communists in the shade.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:32 EST 2001
Article: 259441 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAA4030.F680365F@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: McVay and his vanity site
References: <3AA2F365.D3C50118@bellsouth.net> <98b6av$3pt$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <98b6o4$uhg$1@news.tht.net> <3AA9A0D2.B59B88B7@tampabay.rr.com> <98cod6$18hr$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 48
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:54:41 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.88
X-Trace: news3.atl 984235969 208.63.206.88 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:52:49 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:52:49 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175639 soc.culture.british:555042 soc.culture.canada:259441 soc.culture.usa:606781

One ownders how many times Mr. McVay is going to spam the NG with this defamatory
tripe.
Asking him politely to stop doesn't work.
One might guess that something Mr. Giwer said made him mad.
What could that be?
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
> "...I note that on the few occasions of which I am aware where purveyors of
> anti-Semitic propaganda have endeavoured to justify their materials in
> court on the facts and the merits, they have been singularly unsuccessful..."
>    (http://www2.ca.nizkor.org/hweb/people/s/scully-olga/reason.html)



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:33 EST 2001
Article: 259443 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAA4135.DE96090D@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Bir Zeit cut off
References: <3AA95783.A6C0FCA2@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 35
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 08:59:01 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.88
X-Trace: news3.atl 984236231 208.63.206.88 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:57:11 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:57:11 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175641 soc.culture.israel:328984 soc.culture.usa:606785 soc.culture.canada:259443 soc.culture.british:555046



Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > Dear Friends & Cousins:  This is Breaking News!!!
> >
> > The little University town of Birzeit woke up this
> > morning to find itself
> > cut off from the rest of the West Bank.  Mid way
> > between Ramallah and
> > Birzeit a deep trench was dug by the Israeli military
> > occupying forces, and
>
> Be glad you're not dealing with
> the Ohio National Guard.
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
>

It is not often mentioned but four students in Mississippi were also
murdered in protests against the Vietnam war.  Those students were
black.  All this makes rather than demolishes the point, which is
that there is fascism in the leadership of this country almost
as bad as the fascism in Israel.
Thank you for reminding us, now address the principal point which is

ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY AND ITS DEFENDERS
ARE DESPICABLE

RLA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:33 EST 2001
Article: 259444 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAA4355.97437A0C@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Letter to The Globe and Mail : Have you no shame?
References: <3AA96AE1.529179AB@bellsouth.net> <3AA9DBEC.7A077B9F@leland.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 31
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:08:05 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.88
X-Trace: news2.atl 984236773 208.63.206.88 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:06:13 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:06:13 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175642 soc.culture.palestine:113522 soc.culture.canada:259444 soc.culture.usa:606788 soc.culture.british:555048



Michael Butler wrote:

> >
> >
> > To call upon Israelis to stop
> > their gunfire from tanks, rocket launchers and gun ship helicopters
> > and to call upon Palestinians to stop their stone-throwing for the
> > purpose of giving negotiations a chance to resume would be one
> > thing.
>
> I love your emphasis on the military capabilities of the Israeli army.
> Did you omit the fact that they are not going against just rock thowers
> all the time,  but often the firepower of the PA terrorists. And also
> stones- these are not little pebbles- these are big chunks of rock that
> can and have killed many an Israeli- both soldier and civilian.

Mr. Butler,
    I am constantly struck by your defense of the Israelis.  Is it your
posistion that Israel is justified in occupying the West Bank and Gaza?
For this is where the confrontations occur, not behind the Green Line.
FYI Israel has occupied both the West Bank and Gaza since
1967 and has alway continued to put settlements of crazy people
mainly from Brooklyn and New Joisey into both areas.  Israel is
an illegal occupying power and the settlements are illegal.  Don't
you think the Palestinians have the right to resist this colonization
of the little remnant of land that remains to them or is it your
position that whatever Israel does is all right?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:34 EST 2001
Article: 259446 of soc.culture.canada
Message-ID: <3AAA45E6.2EFA7F85@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Letter to The Globe and Mail : Have you no shame?
References: <3AA96AE1.529179AB@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:19:02 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.88
X-Trace: news2.atl 984237431 208.63.206.88 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:17:11 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:17:11 EST
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.ision.net!ision!stueberl.r-kom.de!newsfeed.freenet.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-was.dfn.de!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175645 soc.culture.palestine:113523 soc.culture.canada:259446 soc.culture.usa:606792 soc.culture.british:555051



meshehu wrote:

> In article <3AA96AE1.529179AB@bellsouth.net>, Roger Alexander
>  wrote:
>
> > It should be obvious that much of "our" media are really Zionist
> > sympathizing propaganda sheets.  The answer then falls out,
> > for the most notable characteristic of Zionists and their
> > sympathizers is the absence of shame, coupled with a
> > willingness to lie that puts the communists in the shade.
>
> As usual Rog, you're full of it. Since the beginning of this latest
> intifada have read copious "articles" in The Toronto Star that blatantly
> side with the palestinian "cause" and denounce Israel. This accompanied by
> the subsequent letters of praise from palestinians and their sympathisers
> in the Letters to the Editor.

"Blatantly side with the Palestinian 'cause'"?  Pretty hedged about there
aren't you?  It is true that strenuous efforts by Americans and Canadians
have resulted in some softening of some papers' positions favoring Israel.
What you didn't state is that the majority of articles and comments still
favor Israel.  This in the face of the fact that Israel is a criminal country,

and its oppression of the Palestinians is horrible.  I am sure you will agree.

RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:34 EST 2001
Article: 259448 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAA48A9.3A997431@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Hillary Dillary Dock  One of the New Square Four flees to Israel
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 560
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:30:49 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.88
X-Trace: news3.atl 984238138 208.63.206.88 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:28:58 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:28:58 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175646 soc.culture.israel:328992 soc.culture.usa:606796 soc.culture.canada:259448 soc.culture.british:555054

The fugitive

Chaim Berger - who fled to Jerusalem after being indicted in the
controversial fraud case involving the ultra-Orthodox community of New
Square - doesn't understand what everyone wants from him. Who can
remember
exactly how he and the others bilked the American government of millions
of
dollars?

By Sara Leibovich-Dar


Wearing a long skirt and modest head-covering, Hillary Clinton went to
New
Square, an ultra-Orthodox town located 50 kilometers from Manhattan, in
Rockland County. During the visit, which took place in August 2000 at
the
height of her Senate campaign, the First Lady was greeted by the sight
of
large banners proclaiming support for her candidacy.Clinton was warmly
welcomed at a meeting with the Admor [master teacher in Hasidic sects]
of
New Square, Grand Rabbi David Twersky, held in his home. He spoke
Yiddish,
she spoke English and a local politician translated. They talked about
problems with the school system and Rabbi Twersky warned of the danger
of
addiction to the Internet. It was a very pleasant visit - as wholesome
as
mom and apple pie, one of Clinton's aides remarked afterward. Well, not
exactly ...

In October 1999, four New Square residents had been convicted on fraud
charges for having set up a fictitious yeshiva in which they registered
many
New Square residents - and then received tens of millions of dollars
from
federal funds designated for financially disadvantaged students. The
four
were sentenced to prison terms ranging from two-and-a-half to
six-and-a-half
years.

The New Square community, led by Twersky, began to agitate for their
release
just days after they went to prison. As the presidential and Senate
elections drew near, Twersky worked very energetically to get out the
vote
for Mrs. Clinton. In the November election, 1,400 New Square residents
voted
for Clinton; only 12 voted for her opponent, Republican Rick Lazio. (Al
Gore
received 1,388 votes.) By comparison, in neighboring ultra-Orthodox
communities, Clinton received just 152 votes, while Lazio received
3,480.

Twersky bet on the right horse. In December, he met with Bill and
Hillary
Clinton at the White House. In a 45-minute conversation (that was
originally
scheduled to last just 15 minutes), Twersky asked the president to
pardon
the four. Hillary Clinton listened. "I had no opinion about it," she
said
later at a press conference after questions concerning the subsequent
commutations arose.

President Clinton promised Twersky that he would check into it and, on
January 20, mere hours before the conclusion of his presidency, Clinton
included the four among the 176 convicts who received clemency. Their
sentences were reduced and, to the dismay of Assistant U.S. Attorney
Deborah
Landis, who prosecuted the case, they will be released from prison next
year.

Four days before the clemency was granted, the White House asked Landis
for
a reaction. In her stinging response, she warned that if President
Clinton
were to pardon the four, he would be sending a message that the desire
to
live according to religious customs justifies violating the law.
One more favor
During his meeting with the Clintons, Twersky mentioned another name -
Chaim
Berger - and asked the president to look into his case as well. Berger,
the
father of one of the four who were convicted, was also named in the
indictment. The New York Times called him the "architect of the
deception."
He fled to Israel four years ago, a few months before the indictment
against
him was handed down and since then, has lived with his wife in
Jerusalem.
The United States has requested his extradition.

A year ago, the Jerusalem District Court ruled that the extradition
should
take place. Berger appealed to the High Court of Justice. The appeal was

denied. Berger requested a further hearing. Justice Shlomo Levin granted
the
request. The hearing is due to be held soon. While the matter of
Berger's
extradition has so far received virtually no coverage in the Israeli and

American media, the upcoming hearing is likely to be a different story.

Today, Hungarian-born Chaim Berger, 74, closely follows events from a
small
rented apartment in Jerusalem. In 1944, his family was taken to
Auschwitz
and he was sent to a forced-labor camp in Hungary. After the war, he
wandered between Austria, the United States and Israel. He didn't settle
in
Israel because "Everything was so hard in Israel. Everything was so
unpleasant," he explained to the Jerusalem District Court.

In the U.S., he worked in a jewelry factory; after retiring, he went to
work
in the community. According to The New York Times, he was the local
expert
in New Square on government aid programs.

In February 1997, while the investigation against him continued, he flew
to
Israel. Fifteen months later, the U.S. government requested his
extradition.
In February 18, 1999, on his 73rd birthday, he was arrested and
subsequently
incarcerated for three weeks.

The ultra-Orthodox community in Israel rushed to his defense. The Admor
of
Vishnitz, Rabbi Moshe Hegger, and two well-respected members of Agudath
Israel's Council of Torah Sages personally posted bond for him to get
him
released from prison. United Torah Judaism MK Meir Porush also posted
bond
for Berger.

"I was convinced by the heads of the community that there was no fear
that
he would flee, God forbid. There was just one question I had to
consider:
Would he be around when they want to extradite him?" says Porush. "I
know
him from the Haredi community. He reports to the police station once a
day
and I don't see any reason that an elderly Jew like him should sit in
jail."

When told that if Berger had remained in the U.S., he almost certainly
would
have been convicted, Porush says: "Nothing was determined regarding him.
A
73-year-old Jew is in Israel. There's no reason he should be in jail."

Berger's attorney, David Libai, met with the Admor of New Square in New
York. The Admor asked Libai to try to extend Berger's stay in Israel as
long
as possible. In Israel, Berger was enjoying the sunshine. He'd be
arrested
as soon as he landed in the U.S.

So all the appeals and additional hearings were basically intended as a
way
to stall for time?

Libai: "No, the hearings themselves are very relevant."

Isn't all this likely to harm U.S.-Israel relations? Berger has been
indicted for defrauding the federal authorities.

"There's no sign of that anywhere. No one says anything about that. When
I
represented Samuel Sheinbaum [a teenager who brutally murdered a
Hispanic
teenager, fled to Israel and was tried here], members of Congress got
all
worked up arguing for his extradition. They demanded that aid to Israel
be
cut back if he weren't extradited. Berger's case hasn't aroused any
media
interest so it's not a problem in terms of U.S.-Israel relations."

Don't you worry that by representing him, you're lending a hand to the
money-extortion scheme?

"I'm a lawyer representing a person solely on the matter of the
extradition
request. I won't represent him in the trial in the U.S. I'm not here to
do
the justice minister's job and I'm not representing the American
administration. I'm a lawyer representing a client. That doesn't mean I
identify with him. I'm not here to defend his methods. All I'm dealing
with
is the extradition issue."
Obstructing justice
The deception perpetrated by the New Square group was publicized in 1992
in
the course of a federal investigation against the community and six of
its
leaders. The community, recognized as the first ultra-Orthodox municipal

authority in the United States, was founded in 1955 by four men,
including
Chaim Berger and Rabbi Twersky's father.

The ultra-Orthodox residents of New Square trace their origins to the
town
of Skvara in the Ukraine. In September 1941, the Germans entered Skvara
and
killed a thousand Jews. Most of the survivors emigrated to the U.S.
There is
also a small "Skverer" Hasidic community in Jerusalem; this was the
community that took in Berger. The immigrants to America initially
settled
in Brooklyn. In 1955, they moved to New Square in order to establish "an

oasis free of the decadent pleasures of modern life."

Today, the community numbers several thousand Hasidim who maintain a
closed
lifestyle. They do not watch television or read secular newspapers. They

keep a strict separation between the sexes; most speak Yiddish and many
do
not work. Per capita income in New Square is among the lowest in the
U.S.;
about 60 percent of New Square residents live below the poverty line and

depend on government support.

It's no wonder, then, that the investigation of the community was
perceived
as an existential threat: The local residents banded together as one to
try
to thwart it. Federal agents who came to New Square to issue summonses
were
met by an angry mob. Once, the agents arrived in New Square at six in
the
morning. The residents quickly complained that, for the Holocaust
survivors
among them, the knocks on the door at that early hour brought back
memories
of the Nazis.

At every opportunity, they kept repeating the claim that the
investigation
derived from anti-Semitism directed toward them. The fact that the
Assistant
U.S. Attorney, Deborah Landis, was Jewish, did nothing to calm their
anger.
In fact, the New Square residents claimed that, of all people, a Jewish
prosecutor would do everything to incriminate them.

The community's leaders also did their best to obstruct the
investigation.
They refused to hand over bank documents related to one of the yeshivas
being investigated. They even obtained a halakhic ruling [according to
Jewish law] from the chief rabbinical court in Jerusalem saying that
they
were not obligated to give business information to the American federal
government. When the court appointed an outside administrator for one of
the
yeshivas, they announced that they were closing the yeshiva so that the
administrator would not be able to run it.

The prosecution was determined not to give in. In April 1997, an
indictment
was issued against six individuals. Two of the accused - Chaim Berger
and
Avrum David Friesel - fled. Friesel, son of New Square's mayor, vanished

without a trace. Rumor has it that he is also somewhere in Israel. The
other
four - Kalmen Stern, David Goldstein, Jacob Elbaum and Benjamin Berger
(Chaim's son) - were tried in New York's Southern District Court.
Pell Grants
The 63-page indictment of the six was very detailed. Like the others,
Chaim
Berger was charged with numerous acts of fraud. The main charge
concerned
the fraudulent obtaining of Pell Grants. These grants, worth several
thousand dollars, are provided to needy students by the U.S. Department
of
Education.

An institution that submits a request to participate in the Pell Grants
Program must have federal approval stipulating that the institution
meets
the educational and financial criteria. Students requesting a grant also

must meet a number of criteria, including a certain level of academic
achievement and financial need.

In 1992, the Department of Education discovered that many students
living in
New Square and Brooklyn were registered at several academic institutions

simultaneously. Many wandered back and forth from one institution to
another; some were registered as students for 14 years without ever
receiving a degree and many received stipends but never actually went to

school.

One of the institutions that registered fictitious students was the
Toldos
Yaakov Yosef Seminary in Brooklyn. Berger was the head of the seminary.
He
was the one who signed the agreement between the seminary and the
Department
of Education stating that the institution pledged to meet all the Pell
grant
conditions. In fact, the Toldos Yaakov Yosef Seminary was a fictitious
institution designed to elicit grant money, charges the indictment. A
regular yeshiva and ultra-Orthodox elementary school - institutions that
did
not meet the Pell Grant criteria - were actually operating at the site.

The statements and testimony given to the American court regarding
Berger
were cited in the State Attorney's petition to the Jerusalem District
Court
declaring that Berger was subject to extradition.

Abraham Abramowitz, the dean of the seminary, testified that the heads
of
the institution, including Berger, had knowingly deceived the Department
of
Education. Abramowitz also said that Berger explained to him that the
New
Square residents could not legally obtain the government allocations.

In her petition, the State Attorney also included the case of Aryeh
Reich,
his wife Chana Reich, and their daughter, Sheindel Brant. Documentation
of
their employment in various capacities at the seminary was presented to
the
American authorities. However, the three have lived in Israel since the
early 1980s, during which time they have left the country very
infrequently
and for brief periods only.

In the U.S., Berger lived in a house that was registered as Reich's
address,
and also signed checks that were made out to Reich. Berger is alleged to

have used Reich's name in order to obtain large sums of money from
Social
Security in America. He was also appointed a member of an organization
that
granted loans to small businesses and, in this capacity, he transferred
funds to the yeshiva in New Square.

An elaborate deception was also directed at the Department of Housing
and
Urban Development (HUD), which grants housing subsidies to needy
families.
Berger was the president of the housing authority in New Square. He
transferred subsidy money to Aryeh Reich, deposited the money in bank
accounts he opened in Reich's name and filled out tax returns in Reich's

name.

At the Jerusalem District Court, a representative of the Attorney
General
said that as president of the New Square housing authority, Berger
tricked
the federal aid programs in two ways: "He engineered it so that the
money
would be transferred to businesses in which he had an interest or bank
accounts over which he had control. Second, as the head of other
institutions in New Square such as Toldos Yaakov Yosef, he
surreptitiously
transferred money to several of his partners in such a way that this
money
would not be reported to the federal government, thus enabling them to
report a lower income and receive aid from HUD through the New Square
housing authority."

In their summations before the court, Berger's lawyers, David Libai and
Eitan Maoz, argued that the statute of limitations had expired on some
of
the charges, and that: "There is no evidence that the defendant did that

with which he is charged for the sake of deriving any benefit or to
pocket
any of the aid money."

All of those convicted claimed that they did not take the money for
personal
gain, but rather for the good of the community. We transferred money
from
one just cause to another, they said. The prosecutor called such claims
a
sham. She says they used the money to buy a fancy car, parking tickets,
diapers and to pay for car repairs.

Judge Barbara Jones was unmoved by the protestations of Robin Hood-like
intentions. The four were convicted and given prison sentences. Kalmen
Stern, who was one of the directors of the fictitious Toldos Yaakov
Yosef
yeshiva, was sentenced to 78 months. David Goldstein, the only one of
the
six who is not a New Square resident, was sentenced to 70 months. Jacob
Elbaum was sentenced to 57 months and Benjamin Berger to 30 months.
Their
appeals were denied.
'I don't remember'
When he testified before the Jerusalem District Court, Berger claimed
that
he didn't know anything or remember anything.

"What was your last position in the New Square community?" he was asked
by
his lawyer, Eitan Maoz.

"It's hard to explain," Berger replied.

"What did you do in the community?" Maoz asked.

"Everyone volunteered to work in what he knew and could do to the best
of
his ability. I didn't have an official position. I volunteered to do
whatever was necessary," he answered.

Maoz: "They say you were the director of Toldos Yaakov Yosef. Were you?"

Berger: "It's hard to explain it. I wasn't exactly the director. It's
only
now, recently, that I've heard that I was the director and chairman. I
never
knew I was the chairman."

Maoz: "How long were you at this yeshiva?"

Berger: "I wasn't at the yeshiva any time or any day."

Maoz: "How long were you involved in this yeshiva?"

Berger: "I don't know how to answer that."

Maoz: "What did they pay you money for?"

Berger: "So I'd be ready to do whatever was necessary."

Maoz countered U.S. prosecutor Landis' description of Berger's "panicky"

flight from the U.S. by averring that "it's customary for New Square
Hasidim
to come to Israel at an advanced age."

Berger shrugged off the question of whether he'd made a hasty escape to
Israel: "One thing is certain - I've been here three years already.
Anyone
who wants to find me can find me."

Maoz: "Is it true that, before leaving the U.S., you didn't tell your
lawyer
that you planned to leave?"

Berger: "That was several years ago. I don't remember exactly what I
said or
didn't say. Maybe I said it, maybe I didn't. I don't remember."

Maoz: "Since you left, have you been in contact with your family in New
Square?"

Berger: "Yes."

Maoz: "They certainly must have told you that in June 1997, an
indictment
was issued against you and your son Benjamin and other people in the
community."

Berger: "I don't remember That was three years ago. How could I
remember?"

Berger has managed quite well in his four years in Israel. He has six
children and 70 grandchildren, all of whom live in or near New Square,
apart
>from five grandchildren who live in Israel. He stayed with one of his
grandchildren in his first months in Israel. Within a few days of his
arrival, he requested housing assistance from the Housing Ministry.

"I got something - not everything I asked for, but something," he told
Maoz
during the initial investigation.

A month after arriving in Israel, he began receiving a stipend for the
elderly from the National Insurance Institute. "That's what I live off
of,"
he told Maoz in court.

Although Berger received Israeli citizenship and even voted in the
election,
Judge Ruth Or of the Jerusalem District Court ruled that he should be
extradited to the U.S. She further stipulated that Berger is not an
Israeli
resident as defined by the extradition law and that, therefore, there
was no
cause for demanding that the U.S. pledge to return Berger to Israel to
serve
out his sentence.

Berger appealed to the High Court of Justice. Chief Justice Aharon
Barak,
writing for the majority, rejected the appeal. Israel had not become the

center of his life, Barak ruled, adding that the incentive for Berger's
flight strongly indicated plans for just a temporary stay in Israel
until
things calmed down.

Berger has requested a further hearing. He wants to be recognized as an
Israeli resident in terms of the extradition law so that he will be
allowed
to serve his sentence in Israel. He won't find a warm reception awaiting
him
upon his return to the United States.

Amid all the furor over the pardons issued by former President Clinton,
the
serious crimes of the four from New Square who were convicted have come
under the spotlight. For its part, the New Square community believes
that it
has fallen victim to a particularly cruel wave of anti-Semitism.

The owner of a local grocery store told a New York Daily News reporter,
"It's like Hitler. There's hatred of Jews throughout the country.
Everyone
here is so depressed."

But Berger might be able to draw comfort from the outlook espoused by
Kalmen
Stern. Stern's lawyer told The Washington Post that his client is not
the
least bit bitter: "He believes that all that happens to him is God's
will.
Now he just has to understand why God did what he did."


© copyright 2001 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved

Hillary Clinton at New Square: 1,400 New Square residents voted for
Clinton;
only 12 voted for her opponent, Republican Rick Lazio.(Photo: AP)

==================================
One would guess that Mr. Berger was more aware of what he was doing
while he and his
friends stole $40 million from the US government.  Does anyone know what
happened
to the money?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:35 EST 2001
Article: 259451 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAA5172.323E0DD5@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Shades of Nazi Germany Women Political Prisoners Abused
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 77
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:08:18 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.88
X-Trace: news1.atl 984240386 208.63.206.88 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:06:26 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:06:26 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175650 soc.culture.israel:328997 soc.culture.usa:606805 soc.culture.canada:259451 soc.culture.british:555061

Women's Organization for Political Prisoners (WOFPP)

P. O. Box 31811, Tel Aviv

Tel and Fax: 972-3-5227124

E-mail: trn1@zahav.net.il

Newsletter March 2001
 Russian Compound Detention Center (Moscobiyeh)

Abeer Abu Khdeir, 32 years-old, from Shu'afat in the West Bank, mother
of four, was arrested by members of the Israeli Army, police and
undercover agents in the night of 21 February 2001 together with her
husband Nasser, after six hours of harassment that was not only directed
against her family including her four children, aged 2 to 12, but also
against all the families who live in the same building. Since the day of
her detention, 21 February, she has not been allowed to meet her lawyer.
On 4 March, her incommunicado detention was extended for eight more
days. This order may be prolonged at will. She is being held in the
interrogation section of the Russian Compound.

Abeer Amer, 20 years old, from Dura near Hebron, and her sister, Sana
Amer, 14 years old, were arrested in Hebron on 20 February 2001. They
are awaiting trial in the Russian Compound. Abeer had been arrested
before, in 1999, and was released in August 2000.

Amne Muna, from Bir Naballah near Jerusalem, was arrested on 19 January
2001. For approximately five weeks she was not allowed to meet her
lawyer.

Wajdan Buji, 22 years old, from Hebron, was arrested on 25 February
2001.

Neve Tirza Prison
On 1 March, WOFPP lawyer Taghreed Jahshan visited the political
prisoners, Maha Al-'Aak, Nasreen Taha, Suad Ghazal and Suna Gh'ai, in
Neve Tirza.. She had to wait for more than an hour to see the first
prisoner, while the lawyers visiting the criminal prisoners entered
without being delayed. -  From her report we learn the following:

The prisoners complain that recently the harassment against them has
increased. Under various pretexts on the part of  the prison
authorities, the women have been prevented from to visiting the library
for the past two months. Part of the library books they had in their
room have been taken away by the wardens. – The wardens have also taken
away drawing cardboard; they wanted to confiscate a piece of  embroidery
with the Palestinian flag that Suad had worked on for a long time, but
instead of surrendering it, Suad cut it to pieces. – The newspapers
still arrive in whole packages with one to two weeks' delay. – The
prisoners receive nearly no letters, and the letters they write do not
reach the families.* - Through the offices of the Red Cross the family
of Suad Ghazal and of Maha Al-'Aak respectively sent clothing, blankets
and sheets to their relative. The clothing was handed over to Suad and
Maha, but they did not receive the blankets and sheets.

In the the last week of February, a representative of the Red Cross
visited the prisoners in  Neve Tirza.

Maha Al-'Aak, 22 years old, from 'Aaida Refugee Camp near Bethlehem, was
arrested 27 July 2000. The date for the continuation of her trial has
been set for 20 March.

Nasreen Taha and Suna Gh'ai were detained in solitary confinement for
three days as punishment for not getting up when  an officer entered
their cell. (As a rule, the prisoners have to stand at checking times,
but not when an officer enters their cell).


=======================================
These women are no doubt not guilty of any crime, but Israel treats them
worse than ordinary criminals.

    ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY!

RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Sat Mar 10 13:52:42 EST 2001
Article: 533130 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAA44CB.C0F1F923@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa
Subject: 20% of American Jews support Palestinian positions 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 89
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:14:20 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.88
X-Trace: news2.atl 984237160 208.63.206.88 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:12:40 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:12:40 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175644 soc.culture.jewish:533130 soc.culture.israel:328987 soc.culture.usa:606790

JPLO:    This report demonstrates a break-through in the Jewish
communities of North America.
The time is now for the intervention of the Jewish dissident groups to
form a Jewish movement
of resistence to the Zionist project and in defense of the legitimate
interests of the Jewish People.
Only 55% support the Israel State position !



Burried in this report it says that 20% of American Jews support other
Palestinian positions (I guess this means human rights positions such as

the right of return of refugees :-).

Mazin
------------
By Shlomo Shamir
Ha'aretz Correspondent

NEW YORK - In an extensive survey whose results are being kept secret,
35 percent of American Jews are willing to see Jerusalem divided to
secure a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.

The survey was conducted in January and February on behalf of a joint
committee representing the five largest Jewish organizations in the
United States. Chairing the committee is the CEO of the Conference of
Presidents, Malcolm Honlein.

Committee representatives refused to comment yesterday on the survey.
Last week, during a meeting of the committee, one of the the
representatives of the Conference of Presidents called on his colleagues

not to pass the results of the survey to the Foreign Ministry in
Jerusalem.

Jewish sources describe this as one of the most extensive surveys in
recent years of the Jewish community in America - and it also included
non-Jews. Senior Jewish leaders in New York said yesterday the survey,
which shows a significant percentage of American Jews supporting the
division of Jerusalem, goes against the official position of the
leadership of the Conference of Presidents - that the Jewish community
is united in uncompromising refusal to consider concessions over
Jerusalem.

The survey also showed more than 50 percent of those asked support the
peace process, 55 percent support Israel's positions, and only 20
percent support Palestinian demands. The Consul General of Israel in New

York, Alon Pinchas, yesterday said representatives of Jewish
organizations had informed him of the survey and also brought to his
attention its results.

In another survey in the New York metropolitan area among the Hispanic
population - the results will be published tomorrow - suggest 60 percent

of that population have a favorable view of Israel. Nonetheless, 64
percent had never heard of Prime Minister-elect Ariel Sharon. Among
those who had, 10.3 percent had a negative feeling about him and to 9.1
percent had a favorable impression.

The survey - the first of its kind, was carried out for the Foundation
for Ethnic Understanding, which seeks to improve relations between the
Jewish and other ethnic communities in New York.


© copyright 2001 Ha'aretz. All Rights Reserved


~~  Reconciliation  Conference  LIST  ~~
since 1994 Abraham Weizfeld organizer
JPLO-OLPJ-subscribe@YahooGroups.com
---------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------
------------------

===================================
Mr. Weizfeld is a tireless organizer for reconciliation efforts
between Jews and Arabs.
This article might shed some light on the question posed by
Mr. McVay as to how many American Jews are Zionists.
Short answer of course is not many.  There are many
sympathizers with Israel's existence, but the hard question
is how many support the brutal occupation and oppression
of the Palestinians.  Although supposedly 55 % support
Israel's positions, one wonders if those votes were fully informed.
I would guess about half or more were not.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:00 EST 2001
Article: 259468 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAAD14F.B0EDF6F8@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Palestinian  University appeals to the world to force zionist occupation 
 forces to lift siege
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 59
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:13:51 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.107
X-Trace: news2.atl 984273124 208.61.184.107 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:12:04 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:12:04 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175674 soc.culture.israel:329063 soc.culture.usa:606937 soc.culture.canada:259468 soc.culture.british:555134

Palestinian  University appeals to the world to force zionist occupation
forces to lift siege

Occupied Jerusalem: 9 March, 2001 (IAP News) - The University of Bir
Zeit
on the West Bank has appealed to the world community to force the
zionist
occupation authorities to lift a hermetic siege on its small college
town,
which has brought all activities at the college to a standstill.

Last week, Israeli army  bulldozers dug a deep trench around Birzeit and

surrounding villages, cutting off thousands of students and tens of
thousands of villagers from the outside world.

The digging also destroyed water pipes and telephone links, leaving as
many
as 60,000 without drinking water and telephone communications.

The Israeli army said the draconian action was a necessary security
measure
to allow Jewish settlers in the area to travel freely on nearby roads.

However, the real purpose of the unprecedented measure seems to punish
the
Palestinian population by demonstrating to them that "they couldn't
lead a normal life while the intifada was continuing."

On Friday,  hundreds of Palestinians succeeded partially in reopening
the
road to Bir Zeit for a few hours before the Israeli army started
shooting
at the unarmed youths who were carrying only shovels.

Hospital sources said as many as 30 people were injured Friday afternoon
in
clashes with Israeli occupation soldiers in the Ramallah region.

The Palestinian Authority-run radio, the Voice of Palestine, reported
Saturday  that two of the injured were in serious condition.

The University of Bir zeit described the digging of the trench and
closure
of all access to its campus as "an evil act reflecting an evil
mentality."

"We urge the international community to force the Israeli occupiers to
end
these repressive measures immediately which are in flagrant violation of

international law and human rights."

   _______________________________________________________________
                Proudly Serving Palestine and Al-Quds


     Islamic Association for Palestine



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:00 EST 2001
Article: 259469 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAAD70A.BF727899@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: A Florida millionaire's block of flats for Jewish settlers may start an 
 intifada
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 166
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:38:19 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.107
X-Trace: news2.atl 984274591 208.61.184.107 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:36:31 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:36:31 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175677 soc.culture.israel:329066 soc.culture.usa:606941 soc.culture.canada:259469

  From the Sunday Independent.....

Rabbi Hiam Dov Beliak is the head of the coalition to take away Dr.
Irving
Moskowitz's tax deductible status on the bingo parlor in Hawaiian
Gardens in
Southern California in which latino-Americans work for virtually nothing
but
tips, and the money earned there is shipped off to the illegal settlers
in
the occupied territories, and he's purchased property in East Jerusalem.

Please go to www.stopmoskowitz.org  or it might be www.stopmoskowitz.com

and read how the poorest sector of Americans are being blatantly used to

help subsidize the fanatic religious Zionist settlers.

Zevei


news | World  | Middle_East  | 2001-03
Bingo chief threatens east Jerusalem peace

A Florida millionaire's block of flats for Jewish settlers may start an
intifada

By Phil Reeves

11 March 2001

They do not much like unannounced visitors at the block of flats which
is
being built for Jewish residents in Arab east Jerusalem by Irving
Mosko-witz, a bingo millionaire from Florida.

"What do you mean by coming in like that, as if it is your home," said
the
Israeli site supervisor, with one of those what's-this-muck-on-my-shoe
expressions reserved in Britain for door-to-door double-glazing
salesmen.

We were ordered back behind the 12ft steel fence that separates the
fortress-like apartment block from the resentful Palestinian
neighbourhood
of Ras al-Amud, close to the Mount of Olives.

Out on the street, he was no more accommodating. How many rooms will the

flats have, I asked. "Ask Moskowitz," he grunted. Who will live here?
"Ask
Moskowitz." How much will they cost? "Ask Moskowitz. Hey, what is this?
You
are like a lawyer, asking these questions?" And off he stomped.

The second Palestinian intifada started in Jerusalem just over 23 weeks
ago,
detonated by a visit to the holy sites of the Old City by Ariel Sharon,
then
leader of the opposition, now Prime Minister. Since then there have been
car
bombs in Jewish west Jerusalem and shooting attacks close to the city's
northern and southern edges. But its Arab section has been quiet, by
comparison with the battle zones of Nablus, Hebron and Gaza. In the
first
intifada cars with Israeli plates that strayed into Palestinian areas
were
stoned and fire-bombed; so far, this has not happened on a large scale.

Yet the area is tense. Its 200,000 Palestinian residents, who pay
Israeli
taxes and benefit from social services, are better off than their West
Bank
and Gaza counterparts, but they are increasingly feeling the economic
crisis
caused by the unrest. The pressure is building; the Ras al-Amud housing
project might just be the issue that prompts the forces behind the
uprising
to take the war into east Jerusalem.

The 132-flat complex is part of the long campaign by fanatically
ultra-nationalist Jewish groups to change the demographics of Arab east
Jerusalem, which was occupied by Israel in 1967 and later, in a move
never
recognised by the international community, annexed. Soon, the block will
be
ready to receive the first residents, ideologically driven settlers
striving
to secure Israel's control over all Jerusalem. The vanguard of three
families moved into a house next door several years ago.

Their Palestinian neighbours are preparing for the worst. "We really
feel in
danger here," said Azzam Abu Saud, director of Jerusalem's Arab Chamber
of
Commerce, who lives next to the site. "Our friends are too frightened to

come to visit us." But he stresses that he and his family will never
leave.

Nor will Khalid Hamdallah, a 35-year-old lorry driver, who lives with
his
nine children in a one-storey house which now stands on an isthmus of
land
jutting into the site on which the complex is being built. Bulldozers
have
carved out the earth around part of his land, stranding his small olive
grove on top of a 20ft cliff on one side. He says he was offered a large
sum
to leave. He, too, sees trouble on the horizon.

Will Ariel Sharon intervene, by stopping the new settlers from moving
in?
His past record is discouraging. He was at the centre of the affair that

first alerted Jerusalem's Arabs to a campaign of acquiring Palestinian
properties by ultra-nationalist Jews seeking to "redeem" the land. In
October 1987, one such group announced that it had rented a house to Mr
Sharon, then Minister of Trade, in the Muslim Quarter of the Old City.

Mr Sharon celebrated with an extravagant house-warming party, attended
by
700 prominent Israelis, and by draping the walls with a huge Israeli
flag.
That sparked riots by the Palestinians, and the incident is considered
by
some to be one of the factors that stoked the first intifada.

Two-and-a-half years later, 150 settlers took possession of St John's
Hospice in the Old City's Christian quarter which was bought from a
Panama-nian front company which had acquired it from its Armenian
leaseholder. There were worldwide protests and denunciations from
Christian
leaders. But Mr Sharon chose to pay the settlers a congratulatory visit.

Behind both incidents – Mr Sharon's house and the hospice take-over –
was
Ateret Cohanim, an extremist settler group which receives much of its
funding from Irving Moskowitz.

Israeli government officials are conducting a determined publicity
offensive
to persuade the outside world that Mr Sharon has put his extremist past
behind him and is a new, more pragmatic figure devoted to peace.
However, he
remains an ardent Zionist who sympathises with the settlement movement.

True, he told parliament last week that there would be no new
settlements.
But he has also told the Americans that the expansion of existing
settlements – built on occupied land in contravention of international
law –
can go on. Thus, more Arab land will be swallowed up and permanent peace

will be even harder to achieve.

Israel's moderates are nervously trying to reassure themselves that the
presence of the Labour Party in his coalition government should keep him
in
check. But Ehud Barak, the former Labour prime minister, was also a
serial
settlement builder, and he did nothing to stop the new Moskowitz block
from
becoming another land mine in an old battlefield.




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:01 EST 2001
Article: 259472 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAADE6F.3080812F@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Tax-break activist earns wide support | The Canadian Press
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 76
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:09:51 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.107
X-Trace: news3.atl 984276483 208.61.184.107 (Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:08:03 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:08:03 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175683 soc.culture.canada:259472 soc.culture.usa:606950


Tax-break activist earns wide support | The Canadian Press

The Calgary Herald | March 8, 2001 | p, A7

WINNIPEG

A Winnipeg man waging an unprecedented court challenge of a $750-million

tax break given to a wealthy Canadian famil says has getting support
from
everyone from right-wing tax hawks to social activists.

"It's gone right across the political spectrum," George Harris said
Wednesday,  shortly before heading to Ottawa for a  Federal Court of
Appeal
hearing Thursday.

The     hearing is the latest skirmish in a quixotic five-year legal
battle
against a 1991 Revenue Canada ruling which allowed a $2.2-billion trust
fund to move out of the country tax-free.

Although the family's name has never been officially released,
it is widely reported to be the Bronfmans, the wealthy Montreal family
that
made a fortune in liquor before becoming a multibillion-dollar player in

the movie and music industries.

Harris, fronting the court challenge for the social justicve group
CHOICES,
wants to have the tax ruling reversed or the loophole closed which
allowed
it. Along the way, the soft-spoken 56-year-old has become the first
taxpayer ever
to be allowed to           take the tax agency - now called Canada
Customs
and Revenue Agency - to court over the treatment of another taxpayer.

He's also struck a chord with disgruntled taxpayers across the country,
who
have donated more [than] $30,000 for legal challenge.  Some say the $750

millon in lost tax revenue should have gone to tax cuts, while others
want
it for social spending.

But everyone wants the same rules for rich and poor alike, said Harris,
who
supports himself with part-time jobs as a bookkeeper and AIDS support
worker.

"You get people who come to you with stories about how Revenue Canada
pursued them for arnounts of under $10," said Harris. "People are
looking
at it from
the fairness point of view and saying everybody should be pursued with
the
same degree of diligence."

The case has been put on a fast track because Ottawa will lose its right
at
the end of the year to recover any taxes that might be due on the trust
fund.

The matter will get a full hearing in September.

Harris said at least another $50,000 is needed to cover this year's
legal
bills, even though the provincially funded Public Interest Law Centre
has
subsidized the lawyers' billings.





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:01 EST 2001
Article: 259507 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!portc03.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AABFC86.FD72F682@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: U. S. State Dept. Country Reports on Human Rights Practices -2000 Israel
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 1048
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:30:31 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.126
X-Trace: news2.atl 984349707 208.63.207.126 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:28:27 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:28:27 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175749 soc.culture.israel:329170 soc.culture.usa:607235 soc.culture.canada:259507 soc.culture.british:555291

Edited by Dr. Bill Friend
RLA

     [[ Please note that I have referenced what I deem important
portions between bold brackets [    ]  - Bill ]  This report has been
abridged for length. Those portions omitted do not directly relate to
Israeli treatment of Israel Arabs or Palestinians.

Israel (for information on occupied territories, see occupied
territories report)

Country Reports on Human Rights Practices -2000
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
February 2001


 Israel 1/ is a parliamentary democracy with a multiparty system and
free elections.  There is no Constitution; a series of "basic laws"
provide for fundamental rights.  The legislature, or Knesset, has the
power to dissolve the Government and limit the authority of the
executive branch.  Labor and One Israel party leader Ehud Barak was
elected Prime Minister in May 1999 and took office in July 1999 at the
head of a broad centrist coalition Government.  On December 9, following
the breakdown of his coalition, Barak resigned as Prime Minister; prime
ministerial elections were scheduled to be held on February 6, 2001.
The judiciary is independent.

[[Since its founding in 1948, Israel has been in a state of war with
most of its Arab neighbors.]]  It concluded a peace treaty with Egypt in
1979 and with Jordan in 1994, and a series of agreements with the
Palestinians beginning in 1993.  As a result of the 1967 war, Israel
occupied the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, and the Golan
Heights.  [The international community does not recognize Israel's
sovereignty over any part of the occupied territories.]  Throughout its
existence, Israel has experienced numerous terrorist attacks.

An historic process of reconciliation between Israel and the
Palestinians began with the Madrid Conference in 1991 and continued with
the September 1993 signing of the Israeli-Palestinian Declaration of
Principles (DOP).  In September 1995, Israel and the Palestine
Liberation Organization (PLO) signed the Interim Agreement on the West
Bank and the Gaza Strip.  In January 1997, the parties concluded the
Hebron Protocol and in October 1998, Israel and the PLO signed the Wye
River Memorandum.  In September 1999, the Israeli Government and the PLO
signed the Sharm el-Sheikh Memorandum.  The parties held intensive
working-level talks between March and June and met at Camp David in
July; however, the Government and the PLO did not reach an agreement.
Internal security is the responsibility of the Israel Security Agency
(the ISA -- formerly the General Security Service, or GSS, and also
known as Shin Bet, or Shabak), which is under the authority of the Prime
Minister's office.  The police are under the authority of the Minister
of Internal Security.  The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) are under the
authority of a civilian Minister of Defense.  The IDF includes a
significant portion of the adult population on active duty or reserve
status and plays a role in maintaining internal security.  The Foreign
Affairs and Defense Committee in the Knesset reviews the activities of
the IDF and the ISA.  [Some members of the security forces committed
serious human rights abuses.]

Israel has an advanced industrial economy, and citizens enjoy a
relatively high standard of living, with a per capita income of over
$17,000.  Unemployment remained at about 9 percent during the year, but
was substantially higher in the country's peripheral regions and among
lower-skilled workers.  [The country's economic growth has been
accompanied by an increase in income inequality.  The longstanding gap
in levels of income within the Jewish population and between Jewish and
Arab citizens continues.  The 14 towns with the highest unemployment
rate in the country all are populated by Arab citizens.]  A heavy
reliance on foreign workers, principally from Asia and Eastern Europe,
is a source of social problems.  Such workers generally are employed in
agriculture and the construction industry and constitute about 6 percent
of the labor force.  Since the implementation of an economic
stabilization plan in 1985, the country has moved gradually to reduce
state intervention in the economy through privatization of several
state-owned companies and through deregulation.  State-owned companies
continue to dominate such fields as electricity generation and
transmission, oil refining, shipping, and international air travel.
However, individuals generally are free to invest in private interests
and to own property. [ The Government owns and manages 77 percent of the
country's land area, and as a matter of policy it does not sell land.
The Jewish National Fund (JNF), an organization established in 1897 for
the purchase and management of land for the Jewish people, owns 8
percent of the country's land area, including a considerable amount
transferred directly from the Government, and manages another 8 percent
on behalf of the Government.]  Foreigners and citizens of all religions
are allowed freely to purchase or lease the 7 percent of land not
controlled by the Government or the JNF.  [In March the High Court of
Justice ruled that the Government's use of the JNF to develop public
land was discriminatory, since the JNF's statute prohibits the sale or
lease of land to non-Jews. ]

The Government generally respects the human rights of its citizens;
however, [its record worsened late in the year regarding its treatment
of non-Jewish citizens.]  Historically, Israel's main human rights
problems have arisen from its policies and practices in the occupied
territories and from its fight against terrorism.  However, [in October
police used excessive force to disperse demonstrations in the north of
the country that coincided with the outbreak of violence in the occupied
territories, killing 13 Arab citizens and injuring over 300 (see
Sections 1.a., 1.c., and 1.g. of the annex for a discussion of
casualties in the occupied territories).  There also are credible
reports that police failed to protect Arab lives and property in several
incidents in which Jewish citizens attacked the homes of Arab
citizens.]  A landmark decision by the High Court of Justice in
September 1999 prohibited the use of a variety of abusive practices,
including violent shaking, painful shackling in contorted positions,
sleep deprivation for extended periods of time, and prolonged exposure
to extreme temperatures. Since the September 1999 ruling, domestic and
international NGO's have been unable to substantiate sporadic
allegations that security forces tortured detainees.  [There were
numerous credible allegations that police beat persons in detention.
Detention and prison conditions, particularly for Palestinian security
detainees held in Israel do not provide inmates with sufficient living
space, food, and access to medical care.  Following the IDF withdrawal
>from its self-declared "security zone" in southern Lebanon in May and
the concurrent collapse of the South Lebanon Army (SLA), all of the
prisoners from the Al-Khiam prison in southern Lebanon, where Lebanese
guards routinely committed abuses, were released. The Government
continued to detain without charge Palestinians, some of them for
lengthy periods; the number of such detainees increased following the
outbreak of violence in September.]  In April an Israeli High Court
ruling declared illegal the holding of Lebanese detainees as "bargaining
chips" in Israeli prisons.  Subsequently, authorities released 13
Lebanese prisoners, [all of whom had been held without charge, or had
already completed their terms.]  At year's end, there were approximately
20 Lebanese prisoners in custody, two of whom -- Sheikh al-Karim Obeid
and Mustafa Dirani -- were held without charge.  Legislation that would
enable Obeid and Dirani to be held as "members of enemy forces not
entitled to prisoner-of-war status" passed a first reading during the
year.  [Following the outbreak of violence in September, the Government
detained without charge hundreds of persons in Israel, the West Bank,
and Gaza, and imposed severe restrictions on the movement of persons and
some restrictions on the movement of goods between Israel and the West
Bank and Gaza and between cities in the West Bank and
Gaza--i.e., closure, which has been in effect to varying extents since
1993 (see Section 2.d. of the annex).]

[  The Government made little headway in reducing institutionalized
legal and societal discrimination against Israel's Christian, Muslim,
and Druze citizens, who constitute just over 20 percent of the
population, but do not share fully the rights provided to, and
obligations imposed on, the country's Jewish citizens.  Prior to
October, the Government did not take tangible steps to improve the
situation of the country's non-Jewish citizens, which was one of the
main factors that contributed to large Israeli Arab demonstrations in
October.  The demonstrations and clashes between the police and Israeli
Arabs brought renewed attention to the different treatment accorded to
the Jewish and Arab sectors of the country. ] In October the Government
approved a $975 million economic assistance plan for Arab citizens to be
phased in over 4 years; however, some human rights groups criticized the
plan as inadequate.  The Knesset did not approve the plan by year's end.

In early October, there were many instances of societal violence between
Arab and Jewish citizens, which coincided with violent events in the
country.

RESPECT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS

Section 1    Respect for the Integrity of the Person, Including
         Freedom From:

a.     Political and other Extrajudicial Killing

There were no reports of political killings during the year.

I[n October police used excessive force to disperse demonstrations in
the north of the country that coincided with the outbreak of violence in
the occupied territories (see Sections 1.a., 1.c., and 2.b. of the
annex), killing 13 Arab citizens and injuring 300 with a combination of
live ammunition and rubber-coated steel bullets (see Sections 1.c. and
2.b.). Demonstrators did not have firearms; however, some demonstrators
reportedly threw rocks and firebombs.  International and domestic human
rights groups assert that police used rubber-coated metal bullets and
live ammunition against demonstrators who posed no imminent danger of
death or serious injury to security forces or others. ]

On [September 28, opposition leader Ariel Sharon visited the Temple
Mount (Haram al-Sharif) in Jerusalem.]  On September 29, Palestinians
held large demonstrations and threw stones at police in the vicinity of
the Western Wall.  Police [used rubber-coated metal bullets and live
ammunition to disperse the demonstrators, killing 4 persons and injuring
about 200 (see Sections 1.a. and 1.c. of the annex).]  In response to
this violence, Palestinians held demonstrations throughout the occupied
territories and Israel.  On October 1, Israeli Arab leaders called a
general strike, which received widespread support from Arab citizens,
thousands of whom demonstrated throughout the country.  [On October 1,
police used live ammunition and rubber-coated metal bullets to disperse
demonstrations in Um-al-Fahem, killing two persons and injuring hundreds
of others.  On October 2, police killed six persons and injured numerous
others during demonstrations in Jat, Nazareth, Arrabe, and Sakhnin.
Police also used live ammunition and rubber bullets to disperse
demonstrations in other towns and villages in the north of the country,
injuring hundreds of demonstrators.  On October 3, police killed three
persons during demonstrations in Nazareth and Kfar Manda. ]

In October and November, coinciding with violence in Israel and the
occupied territories, there were numerous violent incidents along the
Israel-Lebanese border. [ On October 7, IDF personnel reportedly killed
2 persons and injured 25 during demonstrations along the border.  On
October 9, the IDF reportedly fired live ammunition on a group of about
500 Palestinian demonstrators who were throwing rocks and Molotov
cocktails, and trying to cross the border into Israel; IDF personnel
reportedly killed 1 person and injured 10. ]

On October 21, Prime Minister Barak proposed establishing a commission
of examination to study the violence that occurred in early October.
However, Israeli Arab leaders rejected Barak's offer and demanded that
the Government establish a legal commission of inquiry, which would
operate independently of the Government, have subpoena power, and
automatically bestow immunity on anyone who testified before it.  On
November 8, in response to pressure from both Arab and Jewish citizens,
Barak announced the establishment of the Legal Commission of Inquiry,
which reportedly is to have considerable ability to collect
information.  The Commission is headed by a High Court justice, and its
members include an Arab judge from a Nazareth court, and a professor
>from Tel Aviv University.  In December the Legal Commission of Inquiry
began its investigation; however, it did not reach any conclusions by
year's end.

There also are [credible reports that police failed to protect Arab
lives and property in several incidents in which Jewish citizens
attacked Arab citizens.  On October 7, a group of about 200 Israeli Jews
attacked Arab homes in Nazareth Illit (Upper Nazareth), including the
home of an Arab Member of the Knesset.  On October 8, a group of about
1,000 Israeli Jews attacked Arab homes in Nazareth.  The attackers
allegedly targeted Arab citizens due to their anger over the Hizballah
kidnaping of three IDF soldiers and the attack on Joseph's Tomb in the
West Bank in early October (see Sections 1.b. and 2.c. of the annex).
Many of the Arabs exited their homes and attempted to defend themselves
and their property (see Section 5).  Police reportedly arrived at the
scene late, did not take action beyond inserting themselves between the
two groups, and fired live ammunition, rubber bullets, and tear gas at
the Arab citizens.  Two Israeli Arabs were killed and approximately 50
others were injured in these incidents.  International and domestic
human rights groups reported that the police were responsible for the
deaths and injuries; however, some residents of Nazareth reported that
some members of the Jewish crowd had firearms.  Large crowds of Jews
also attacked Arab homes, businesses, and two mosques in other areas of
the country (see Sections 1.c. and 5).  Arab protesters also attacked
Jewish-owned businesses and at least one synagogue (see Sections 1.c.
and 5). ]

During the year, 22 Israelis died and 244 were injured in terrorist
attacks carried out by Palestinian groups or individuals in Israel and
the occupied territories (also see Sections 1.a. and 1.c. of the
annex).  For example, on November 1, a car bomb in Jerusalem killed two
Israelis and injured eleven others, including four children.
Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.  On
November 22, a car bomb in Hadera killed three Israelis and injured 61.
Palestinian Islamic Jihad also claimed responsibility for this attack.

b.  Disappearance

On October 10, Hizballah guerrillas kidnaped three IDF soldiers.  At
year's end, the soldiers were believed to be held in Lebanon.






c. Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading
Treatment or Punishment

Laws and administrative regulations prohibit the physical abuse of
detainees; however, security forces sometimes abused Palestinians
suspected of security offenses. A landmark decision by the High Court of
Justice in September 1999 prohibited the use of a variety of abusive
practices, including violent shaking, painful shackling in contorted
positions ("Shabbeh"), sleep deprivation for extended periods of time,
and prolonged exposure to extreme temperatures. Since the September 1999
ruling, domestic and international NGO's have been unable to
substantiate sporadic allegations that security forces tortured
detainees.

Prior to the High Court's 1999 decision, laws and administrative
regulations prohibiting the physical abuse of detainees were not
enforced in security cases.  The head of the ISA was empowered by
government regulation to authorize security officers to use "moderate
physical and psychological pressure" (which included violent shaking)
while interrogating detainees.  These practices often led to excesses.
In November 1999, the Attorney General issued revised guidelines that
denied blanket immunity from prosecution for interrogators; however, it
remains theoretically possible that the State could decline to prosecute
interrogators who used prohibited methods in cases of extreme urgency.

In [October police used live ammunition and rubber-coated metal bullets
to disperse demonstrators in the north of the country, killing 13 Arab
citizens and injuring over 300 (see Sections 1.a. and 2.b.).
Demonstrators reportedly did not have firearms; however, in some cases
they reportedly threw rocks and firebombs.  On October 1, police beat
severely a woman who screamed at a police officer during a
demonstration.  The incident was videotaped and broadcast on domestic
and international television.]

There were numerous credible allegations from human rights groups that
[police beat persons in detention; reports of such beatings increased in
October following demonstrations and the numerous subsequent police
arrests of suspected or actual participants in the demonstrations (see
Section 1.d.).  For example, on October 26, police arrested an Arab
citizen, Amneh Aqayleh, on suspicion of participating in demonstrations
in Nazareth.  Police brought Aqayleh to the Kishon detention center for
interrogation where they reportedly beat him.  Police also reportedly
arrested and beat some Jewish demonstrators.  For example, according to
Amnesty International police arrested and beat Yoav Bar following a
demonstration in Wadi Nisnas, breaking his hand, two of his ribs, and
two of his teeth.  According to Amnesty International, police also
reportedly arrested and beat youths following demonstrations in the
north of the country (see Section 1.d.).]

According to local and international human rights NGO's, in some cases
[police reportedly delayed ambulances and medical personnel from
entering Arab villages to treat persons who were injured during the
clashes (see Section 2.d.).  According to police officials, the streets
often were too crowded and volatile for the ambulances to enter the
villages safely.  According to some observers, local leaders broadcast
requests over mosque loudspeakers that demonstrators return home in
order to clear the way for ambulances].

[ DIFFERENCES IN TREATMENT OF ISRAELI CITIZENS VS PALESTINIANS IN
INCARCERATION FACILITIES]

Conditions vary in incarceration facilities in Israel and the occupied
territories, which are administered by the Israeli Prison Service (IPS),
the IDF, or the national police.  IPS prisons, which generally house
Israeli citizens convicted of common crimes, usually provide inmates
with sufficient living space, food, and access to medical care.  In
general, IPS inmates are not subject to physical abuse by guards, and
prisoners receive basic necessities.  Inmates receive mail, have
television sets in their cells, and receive regular visits.  Prisoners
receive wages for prison work and benefits for good behavior.  Many IPS
prisons have drug treatment, educational, and recreational programs.
The IPS established a national police unit to investigate allegations of
offenses committed by guards, including complaints about the use of
force against inmates.

Since the closure in 1995 of the main IDF detention camps in the
occupied territories, all security detainees (i.e., those detained and
held without charge by security forces) from the occupied territories
who are held for more than a few days are transferred to facilities
within Israel. During the year, security detainees usually were held in
the IDF's Megiddo prison, in IPS facilities, and in special sections of
police detention facilities.  Prisoners incarcerated for security
reasons are subject to a different regimen, even in IPS facilities.
They often are denied privileges given to prisoners convicted on
criminal charges such as furloughs and some family visits.  According to
the Government, security detainees may receive financial assistance from
the Palestinian Authority (PA), food from their families, and medical
supplies from the ICRC and other aid organizations.  Security detainees
include some minors.  Detention facilities administered by the IDF are
limited to male Palestinian detainees and are guarded by armed
soldiers.  The total number of Palestinian prisoners held by Israel,
approximately 1,354 at the beginning of the year, reached 1,832 by
year's end.  The number of administrative detainees (held without charge
or trial) was between 10 and 15 at year's end, including one Israeli
Arab (see Section 1.d.).  Under the terms of the Sharm el-Sheikh
Memorandum, the Government released a total of 350 Palestinian security
prisoners in 1999 (in addition to the 250 prisoners released in late
1998 pursuant to the Wye River Accords).  On May 1, Palestinian
prisoners throughout the country began a hunger strike to protest prison
conditions and their continued incarceration.  Following negotiations
with government and PA officials, the prisoners agreed to suspend the
hunger strike on May 31.  The Government agreed to remove prisoners from
solitary confinement and to allow family members to visit inmates, and
the prisoners agreed to refrain from planning terrorist attacks from
prison.

Conditions at the Russian Compound, which is run by police and houses a
combination of security and common prisoners and detainees in Jerusalem,
were criticized in 1997 as "not fit to serve as lock-up" by High Court
of Justice President Aharon Barak.  Conditions in other IDF facilities
have improved in some respects.  For example, inmates are given more
time for exercise outside their cells.  Nevertheless, recreational
facilities remain minimal, and there are strict limitations on family
visits to detainees.  Visits were prevented for long periods of time
during closures.

Conditions at some national police detention facilities are poor.  Such
facilities are intended to hold criminal detainees prior to trial but
often become de facto prisons.  Those held include some security
detainees and some persons who have been convicted and sentenced.
Inmates in the national police detention facilities often are not
accorded the same rights as prisoners in the IPS system.  Moreover,
conditions are worse in the separate facilities for security detainees
maintained both in police facilities and in IPS prisons.

In 1996 the Government began a reform program for the country's
detention facilities.  To date, there have been some improvements,
including the opening of a model detention center near Netanya; however,
problems, including dilapidation and overcrowding persist.  The 1997
Arrest and Detention law provided for the right to live in conditions
that would not harm the health or dignity of the detainee, access to
adequate health care, the right to a bed for each detainee, and access
to exercise and fresh air on a daily basis.  The Government has made
significant strides towards implementing this legislation, though
problems remain.



All incarceration facilities are monitored regularly by various branches
of the Government, by members of the Knesset, by the International
Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), and by human rights groups (see
Section 1.d. of the annex).

In September 1999, [the Government acknowledged that it trained,
debriefed, and paid the salaries of the Lebanese administrators and
staff of the Al-Khiam prison in southern Lebanon, where prisoners
allegedly were tortured routinely.  Following the IDF withdrawal from
its self-declared "security zone" and the concurrent collapse of the
SLA, all of the prisoners in Al-Khiam were released.]

d. [ Arbitrary Arrest, Detention, or Exile]

The law prohibits arbitrary arrest of citizens, and the Government
generally observes this prohibition.  Defendants are considered innocent
until proven guilty and have the right to writs of habeas corpus and
other procedural safeguards.  However,[ a 1979 law permits
administrative, or preventive, detention (i.e., without charge or
trial), which is used on occasion in security cases.  In such cases, the
Minister of Defense may issue a detention order for a maximum of 1 year,
though such orders may be extended.]]  Within 24 hours of issuance,
detainees must appear before a district judge who may confirm, shorten,
or overturn the order.  If the order is confirmed, an automatic review
takes place after 3 months.  Detention orders were confirmed in all
cases during the year.  Detainees have the right to be represented by
counsel and to appeal detention orders to the High Court of Justice;
however, [the security forces may delay notification of counsel with the
consent of a judge.]  According to human rights groups and legal
experts, there were cases in which a judge denied the Government's
request to delay notification of counsel. [ At detention hearings, the
security forces may withhold evidence from defense lawyers on security
grounds.  The Government also may seek to renew administrative detention
orders.]  However, the security services must "show cause" for continued
detention, and, in some instances, individuals were released because the
standard could not be met.

[  Human rights groups allege abuse of detention orders in cases in
which they assert that the accused did not pose a clear danger to
society.]]]

Most of[ the protections afforded to Israelis are not extended to
Palestinian detainees, who fall under the jurisdiction of military law
even if they are detained in Israel.  With IDF redeployment in the West
Bank, detention centers there were closed in 1995.  As a result, all
Palestinian detainees held for longer than 1 or 2 days are incarcerated
in Israel (see Section 1.d. of the annex).]]

[Police arrested hundreds of persons mainly in the north of the country
in connection with the demonstrations and disturbances that began in
September; approximately two-thirds of the persons arrested were Arab
citizens and about one-third were Jewish citizens.  According to
domestic and international human rights organizations, police continued
to arrest Arab citizens whom they suspected of participating in the
disturbances over a month after the demonstrations ended.  On October
26, the Northern Police Commander announced to the press that his office
compiled a list of hundreds of persons who participated in the
demonstrations and that the police intended to arrest many of them.
According to human rights organizations, police lacked any evidence
against a significant number of Israeli Arabs that they arrested.  There
also were credible reports that police tricked some Israeli Arabs into
confessing that they threw stones during demonstrations.  Many of the
persons arrested, including some minors, also reportedly were held
without bail until the end of criminal proceedings against them.
Several detainees brought appeals to the High Court of Justice; however,
the Court upheld this practice on the grounds that calm had not yet
returned to the country.  According to Amnesty International, at least
10 Arab citizens detained in connection with the disturbances in October
were denied access to counsel for up to 1 week.]

In [December for the first time since 1994, the Government placed an
Israeli Arab, Jhasan Athamnah, in administrative detention where he was
being held on secret evidence at year's end. ]

At year's end, the Government held 1,832 Palestinians in custody.  Those
held were a mixture of common prisoners, administrative detainees, and
security detainees.  The Government continues to deny the ICRC access to
one Lebanese citizen, Mustafa Dirani (held without charge since 1994).
The Government granted the ICRC access to Sheikh Obeid (held without
charge since 1989) for the first time in December 1999, and allowed the
ICRC four additional visits during the year.  However, following the
October kidnaping of IDF soldiers by Hizballah guerrillas (see Section
1.b.), the Government suspended ICRC access to Sheikh Obeid.  In May
1998, the High Court of Justice ruled that the Government was entitled
to continue holding them for use in a possible exchange of hostages to
obtain the return of an Israeli who still may be held by hostile
forces.  The High Court's ruling stressed that national security needs
took precedence over the detainees' individual rights under Israeli and
international law.  However, in April the High Court declared illegal
the detention of individuals to be used as "bargaining chips;" the
Government subsequently released 13 Lebanese prisoners.  However, Obeid,
Dirani, and approximately 18 other Lebanese prisoners remained in
custody at year's end; the former are administrative detainees, and the
latter have been charged and convicted of crimes.  [The Government
claims that Obeid and Dirani are security threats and attempted to pass
legislation that would allow the continued detention without charge of
"members of enemy forces not entitled to prisoner-of-war status."  The
bill had passed a first reading by year's end.  Two legal advisors to
the Knesset criticized the bill, claiming that it contravened domestic
and international laws.  ]

e.     Denial of Fair Public Trial

The law provides for an independent judiciary, and the Government
respects this provision.  However, in the past the judiciary routinely
acquiesced to the Government's position in security cases.  The
September 1999 landmark High Court of Justice decision barring the use
of torture (see Section 1.c.) marked a major change in this practice, as
did the April ruling prohibiting the holding of detainees for use as
"bargaining chips."  The judiciary generally provides citizens with a
fair and efficient judicial process.

The judicial system is composed of civil, military, religious, labor
relations, and administrative courts, with the High Court of Justice as
the ultimate judicial authority.  The High Court of Justice is both a
court of first instance (in cases involving government action) and an
appellate court (when it sits as the Supreme Court).  Each of the cited
courts, including the High Court of Justice, have appellate courts or
jurisdictions.

The law provides for the right to a hearing with representation by
counsel, and authorities observe this right in practice.  A regional and
national system of public defenders operated by the Ministry of Justice
was inaugurated in 1996 and now employs about 700 attorneys through 5
regional offices.  Under the system, economically disadvantaged persons
who face sentences of 5 years or longer, and all persons who are accused
of crimes with sentences of 10 years or longer receive mandatory legal
representation.  Judges also have discretionary power to appoint an
attorney in all cases.  Since the system was implemented, representation
has increased to about 70 percent.  All nonsecurity trials are public
except those in which the interests of the parties are deemed best
served by privacy.  Cases involving national security may be tried in
either military or civil courts and may be partly or wholly closed to
the public.  The prosecution must justify closing the proceedings to the
public in such cases, and the Attorney General determines the venue.
Adult defendants have the right to be represented by counsel even in
closed proceedings but may be denied access to some evidence on security
grounds.  Under the law, convictions may not be based on any evidence
denied to the defense.  In addition, convictions may not be based solely
on a confession by the accused, although in practice security prisoners
have been sentenced on the basis of the coerced confessions of both
themselves and others.

[According to human rights organizations, the legal system often imposes
far stiffer punishments on Christian, Muslim, and Druze citizens than on
Jewish citizens.  For example, human rights advocates claim that Israeli
Arabs are more likely to be convicted of murder (which carries a
mandatory life sentence) than Jewish Israelis. The courts reportedly
also are more likely to detain Arab-Israelis until the conclusion of
proceedings.  The Government notes that the judicial system is
independent and disputes the charge that the court system systematically
discriminates against non-Jewish citizens.  According to press reports,
following the demonstrations that took place in September and October,
66 percent of those arrested were Arab Israelis, and 84 percent of those
detained until the conclusion of proceedings as of late October were
Arab Israelis (see Section 1.d.). ]

There were no reports of political prisoners





Section 2  Respect for Civil Liberties, Including:

a.  Freedom of Speech and Press

The law provides for freedom of the press, and the Government generally
respects this right in practice.  The law authorizes the Government to
censor any material reported from Israel or the occupied territories
regarded as sensitive on national security grounds.  A censorship
agreement signed in 1996 between the Government and media
representatives continued the trend of liberalization of the
Government's censorship regime.  The agreement, which now applies to all
media organizations in the country, provides that military censorship is
to be applied only in cases involving national security issues that have
a near certainty of harming the country's defense interests.  All media
organizations can appeal the censor's decision to the High Court of
Justice.  Moreover, a clause prohibits the military censor from shutting
down a newspaper for censorship violations and from appealing a court
judgement against it.  News printed or broadcast abroad may be reported
without the censor's review, which permits the media to run previously
censored stories that have appeared in foreign sources.  Emergency
regulations prohibit persons from expressing support for illegal
organizations.  On occasion in the past, the Government has prosecuted
persons for speaking or writing on behalf of terrorist groups.  No such
cases were filed during the year.  During the year, there were reports
that the military censor intervened in several cases related to national
defense.

[One Palestinian-owned newspaper is required to submit its entire
contents, including advertising, to the military censor by 4:00 p.m.
each day.  The editor claims that this process caused his journalists to
practice self-censorship.  Journalists and professional journalist
groups complained about limitations placed on their freedom of movement
within the occupied territories, between the West Bank and Gaza, and
between the occupied territories and Israel during the violent unrest in
September (see Section 2.d.).  One media organization reported that more
than two dozen journalists were injured or harassed while covering
events in the occupied territories in October and November (see Section
2.a. of the annex).  On October 5, during a demonstration in Jaffa,
demonstrators acting outside of government control assaulted a foreign
camera crew, injuring several journalists and breaking three cameras. ]

Foreign journalists are required to sign an agreement to submit certain
news stories and photographs for censorship; however, they rarely are
challenged for not doing so.

Individuals, groups, and the press freely address public issues and
criticize government policies and officials without reprisal.  Laws
prohibit hate speech and incitement to violence.  All newspapers are
privately owned and managed.  Newspaper licenses are valid only for
Israel; separate licenses are required to distribute publications in
areas in the occupied territories still under Israel's authority.
Sixteen daily newspapers are published in Israel.  There are about 90
weekly local newspapers and more than 250 periodical publications.

Directed by a government appointee, the quasi-independent Israel
Broadcast Authority (IBA) controls television Channel 1 and Kol Israel
(Voice of Israel) radio, both major sources of news and information.
The privately operated Channel 2, the country's first commercial
television station, is operated by three franchise companies and
supervised by the Second Television and Radio Authority, a public body
that also supervises 14 private radio stations.  There are five cable
television companies that carry both domestic and international
networks.

The Government continued to attempt to close down the estimated 150
pirate radio stations operating out of Israel and the West Bank.

RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION IN ISRAEL TOWARDS JEWS

Many citizens object to the Orthodox Jewish religious authorities'
exclusive control over Jewish marriage, divorce, and burial.  These
authorities do not recognize marriages or conversions to Judaism
performed in Israel by Conservative or Reform rabbis.  These issues have
been a source of serious controversy within society, particularly in
recent years, as thousands of Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet
Union have brought with them family members not recognized as Jewish by
Orthodox authorities.

Many Jews who wish to be married in secular or non-Orthodox religious
ceremonies do so abroad.  The Ministry of Interior recognizes such
marriages.

Under the Government's current interpretation and implementation of
Jewish personal status law, a Jewish woman is not allowed to initiate
divorce proceedings without her husband's consent; consequently there
are hundreds of so-called "agunot" in the country who cannot remarry or
have legitimate children because their husbands either have disappeared
or refused to grant a divorce.

In August Prime Minister Barak announced his plans to "separate religion
>from politics" by promoting a "civil-social revolution" consisting of a
number of measures including:  Drafting a constitution, folding the
Ministry of Religious Affairs into the Ministry of Justice, lifting
restrictions on transportation during the Sabbath, allowing for some
form of civil marriages, eliminating the nationality clause from
identification cards, and introducing a new core curriculum in all
state-funded schools.  These proposals triggered a national debate on
religion and society.  By year's end, none of these proposed reforms had
been implemented.

A January 1999 High Court ruling enabled Reform and Conservative rabbis
to hold seats on the powerful municipal and religious councils.  In 1998
the High Court ruled that draft exemptions for yeshiva students was
illegal; however, it delayed implementation of the ruling several times
and gave the Knesset until December 21 to pass legislation on the
matter.  On December 20, an 11-justice panel of the High Court rejected
the Government's request for another extension; however, it stated that
it would grant the IDF a "reasonable period" of time in which to
implement the ruling.

Governmental discrimination against non-Jewish Institutions

[The Government provides proportionally greater financial support to
institutions in the Jewish sector compared with those in the non-Jewish
sector, i.e., Muslim, Christian, and Druze.  For example, only 2.4
percent of the Ministry of Religious Affairs budget for 1999 was
allocated to the non-Jewish sector, although Muslims, Christians, and
Druze constitute 20 percent of the population.]  In 1998 the High Court
of Justice ruled that the budget allocation constituted "prima facie
discrimination" but that the plaintiff's petition did not provide
adequate information about the religious needs of the various
communities.  The court refused to intervene in the budgetary process on
the grounds that such action would invade the proper sphere of the
legislature.  However, during the year, the court ordered the Government
to allocate resources equitably to cemeteries of the Jewish and Arab
communities.

[  On December 6, a law prohibiting some missionary activity and the
dissemination of some missionary material passed a first reading in the
Knesset.].

[The Government has recognized only Jewish holy places under the 1967
Protection of Holy Sites Law.]  The Government states that it also
protects the holy sites of other faiths, and that it has provided funds
for some holy sites of other faiths.

A group of more than 100 Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform women
continued a long legal battle to hold women's prayer services at the
Western Wall during the year.  In May the High Court ruled that women
may read from the Torah and wear prayer shawls at the Western Wall.
Both legislators and the state prosecutor's office sought to overturn
the ruling; however, they were not successful as of year's end.

d. Freedom of Movement Within the Country, Foreign Travel,
Emigration, and Repatriation   With respect to Muslim citizens making
the Hajj.....

Citizens are free to travel abroad and to emigrate, provided they have
no outstanding military obligations and are not restricted by
administrative order.  During the year, [the Government generally
continued to permit Muslim citizens to make the Hajj.  However for
security reasons, the Government imposes some restrictions on its Muslim
citizens who perform the Hajj, including requiring that they be over the
age of 30.  The Government does not allow persons to return if they
leave the country without formal permission. ] The Government justifies
these restrictions on the grounds that Saudi Arabia remains officially
at war with Israel and that travel to Saudi Arabia therefore is
considered subject to security considerations.

Discrimination in cases of intermarriage....

The Government states that non-Jewish female citizens who marry
non-citizen men may retain their citizenship.  The Government also
asserts that the male spouses of non-Jewish citizens may acquire
citizenship under the family reunification program, except in cases
where the man has a criminal record or is suspected of posing a threat
to security.  However, [[Christian, Muslim, or Druze women who have
married men from Arab states or the West Bank and Gaza have complained
about losing their Israeli citizenship and right to reenter Israel.]

Deliberate delay of medical emergencies.....

During the demonstrations and disturbances in late September, police
reportedly closed roads and entrances to some Arab villages and cities
around the country.  According to human rights groups, police also
sometimes delayed ambulances and medical personnel from entering Arab
villages to treat persons who were injured during the clashes (see
Section 1.c.).  Journalists complained about limitations placed on their
freedom of movement during the violence in Israel and the occupied
territories (see Section 2.a.).

The discrimination inherent in The Law of Return is cited by the U.S.
State Dept........

The Government welcomes Jewish immigrants, their Jewish or non-Jewish
family members, and Jewish refugees, on whom it confers automatic
citizenship and residence rights under the Law of Return.  This law does
not apply to non-Jews or to persons of Jewish descent who have converted
to another faith.  Other than the Law of Return and the family
reunification statutes there is no immigration law that provides for
immigration to the country, or for political asylum or refugee status.
The law does allow individuals to live in the country as permanent
residents.



Discrimination against religious minorities including non-Orthodox
branches of Judaism......

Religious Minorities

Tensions between secular and religious elements of society continued to
grow during the year.  The non-Orthodox Jewish community in particular
has complained of discrimination and intolerance (see Section 2.c.).

Evangelical Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Reform and Conservative
Jews complained of incidents of harassment, threats, and vandalism
directed against their buildings, and other facilities, many of which
were committed by two ultraorthodox groups Yad L'Achim and Lev L'Achim.
[ In civic areas where religion is a determining criterion, such as the
religious courts and centers of education, non-Jewish institutions
routinely receive less state support than their Jewish counterparts. ]]

During the demonstrations and disturbances in October, there were
several incidents involving attacks on synagogues and mosques.  In
October Arab protesters attacked a synagogue in Shafar'am.  Jewish
protesters attacked mosques in Acco and Tiberias.

National/Racial/Ethnic Minorities

[The Government does not provide Israeli Arabs, who constitute
approximately 20 percent of the population, with the same quality of
education, housing, employment, and social services as Jews.  In
addition, government spending is proportionally far lower in
predominantly Arab areas than in Jewish areas; on a per capita basis,
the Government spends two-thirds as much for Arabs than for Jews.
According to the National Insurance Institute, 42 percent of Israeli
Arabs live below the poverty line, compared with 20 percent of the total
population.  The Government also follows a disproportionately
restrictive policy on issuing building permits to Arab citizens,
resulting in the issuance of proportionately more building demolition
orders against Arab-built structures].  Ministers in the Barak
Government publicly acknowledged the continuing disparities in
government funding for Israel's non-Jewish citizens. [ Following the
demonstrations and disturbances in September and October (see Sections
1.a. and 1.c.), the Government approved a $975 million (4 billion NIS)
economic assistance plan for the country's Arab citizens to be phased in
over 4 years.  Most of the money included in the plan is allocated for
education and new infrastructure development.  Israeli Arab leaders and
human rights groups criticized the plan because it was not based on a
comprehensive survey of the economic and development needs of the
country's Arab population and was considered inadequate to meet that
population's needs.  Critics also pointed out that only half of the
total sum represented newly allocated money.  The Government did not
implement the plan by year's end, and according to newspaper reports,
the Government's 2001 budget proposal did not include details about
funding for the plan. ]

The Government appointed an Arab citizen to the board of the Israel land
authority in November 1999.

[ NOTE: The following is information that either the U.S. State Dept. is
unaware of or chooses not to make public.  Although the report does
state in the sentence following this that the "Israel Land Authority"
has "half of (its) members represent(ing) organizations forbidden by
stature to transfer land to non-Jews." It does not make clear why this
is so.  Here is the reason.  For those wishing to understand this
further, please see my report on the Structure of The World Zionist
Organization.     In 1961 a covenant was made between the Israeli
minister of finance, the head of the Finance dept of the Zionist
Executive- which is the body that implements the decisions of the
Zionist Congresses.  This covenant established two bodies (1) The Israel
Lands Council and (2) The Land Reclamation Development Council.

(1) The Israel Lands Council is made up of 13 members. 7 are from the
Israeli Government and 6 are from the Jewish National Fund (Keren
Kayemuth L'Israel)

(2) The Land Reclamation Development Council is made up of 13 members. 6
are from the Israeli government and 7 are from the Jewish National Fund.

Both of these bodies fall under the jurisdiction of the Israel Lands
Administration which is chaired by the Israeli Minister of
Agriculture.   This is precisely the reason why this ministry is so
coveted by certain individuals.  It should be recalled that this
position was held for quite some time under both Labor and Likud
governments (and during the first National Unity Government) by Ariel
Sharon.

Since under its own rules, lease or sale of land to non-Jews is
prohibited by the Jewish National fund, this becomes the reason for that
citing by the U.S. State Dept. report. Without understanding this above
cited paper trail however, the reason becomes a bit obscure - Zevei

This becomes even more of a key issue when one understands that the
underlying reason for this ongoing conflict is precisely the right to
land ownership, which under the policies originally established by the
Zionist Organization (later known as The World Zionist
Organization/Jewish Agency) is only permissible to Jews on land obtained
by the Z.O. through the JNF and its subsidiaries. ]

 [This marked the first representation of non-Jews on this body, half of
whose members represent organizations forbidden by statute to transfer
land to   non-Jews.  In March the High Court of Justice ruled on an
October 1995 petition brought by an Arab couple that was barred from
buying a home in Katzir, a Jewish municipality, which was built on
state-owned land.  The High Court ruled that the Government's use of the
Jewish National Fund to develop public land was discriminatory, since
the fund's by-laws prohibit the sale or lease of land to non-Jews.  The
High Court noted that its ruling in the case would not affect previous
land allocations and that differentiating between Jews and non-Jews in
land allocation might be acceptable under unspecified "special
circumstances."  Following the High Court's decision, the Government
established an interministerial committee to examine the issues involved
in implementing the decision.  The Israel Lands Administration had not
implemented the ruling in this case by year's end and the Ka'adan family
still was not allocated a plot of land in Katzir.  Israeli Arab
organizations have challenged the 1996 "Master Plan for the Northern
Areas of Israel," which listed as priority goals increasing the
Galilee's Jewish population and blocking the territorial contiguity of
Arab villages and towns, on the grounds that it discriminates against
Arab citizens; the Government continues to use this document for
planning in the Galilee.]]

Relative to their numbers, Israeli Arabs are underrepresented in the
student bodies and faculties of most universities and in higher level
professional and business ranks.  Arabs constitute only 8.7 percent of
the students at major universities in the country.  Well-educated Arabs
often are unable to find jobs commensurate with their level of
education.  Arab citizens hold only 50 of the country's 5,000 university
faculty positions.  The Government states that it is committed to
granting equal and fair conditions to Israeli Arabs, particularly in the
areas of education, housing, and employment.  A small number of Israeli
Arabs have risen to responsible positions in the civil service,
generally in the Arab departments of government ministries.  In 1994 a
civil service commission began a 3-year affirmative action program to
expand that number, but it has had only modest results.  [Arab citizens
compose 6.2 percent of the civil service and less than 2 percent of the
positions in the four senior-most civil service grades]. In October the
Knesset passed a bill that minorities and underrepresented populations
must be granted "appropriate representation" in the civil service, and
on the boards of government corporations.

In practice, few Israeli Arabs serve in the military or work in
companies with defense contracts or in security-related fields.  The
Israeli Druze and Circassian communities are subject to the military
draft, and although some have refused to serve, the overwhelming
majority accepts service willingly. [ Note: The incentive for willingly
accepting service in the IDF is that upon obtainment of an honorable
discharge, certain positions in the job market open up that otherwise
would not be opened.  This is obviously the main reason why the Druze
and Circassians accept the draft.] Some Bedouin and other Arab citizens
who are not subject to the draft serve voluntarily.  Those who do not
serve in the army have less access than other citizens to those social
and economic benefits for which military service is a prerequisite or an
advantage, such as housing, new-household subsidies, and government or
security-related industrial employment.  Under a 1994 government policy
decision, the social security child allowance for parents who did not
serve in the military and did not attend a yeshiva (including Arabs) was
increased to equal the allowance of those who had done so.

Israeli Arab groups allege that many employers use the prerequisite of
military service to avoid hiring non-Jews.  For example, a September
1999 survey revealed that 40 percent of employment ads in one weekend
newspaper listed "army service necessary." Jobs included ice cream
sales, typist, bus driver, and customer service.

Poor schooling facilities for Arab children..........

Arab children make up about a quarter of the public school population,
but Government resources for them are less than proportionate to those
for Jewish children.  Many schools in Arab communities are dilapidated
and overcrowded, lack special education services and counselors, have
poor libraries, and have no sports facilities.  According to a report
issued during the year, only 54 percent of Arab students finish high
school compared with 89 percent of Jewish students.  According to 1998
statistics, 58 percent of the teachers in Jewish schools had university
degrees compared with 39 percent of the teachers in Arab schools.  The
disparity in government resources for education also affects Bedouin
children from the unrecognized villages.  Currently, preschool
attendance for Bedouin children is the lowest in the country, and the
dropout rate for Bedouin high school students is the highest.  Arab
groups also note that the public school curriculum stresses Israel's
Jewish culture and heritage.

Israeli Arab students also are not eligible to participate in a special
education program to provide academic assistance to students from
disadvantaged backgrounds.  A petition was filed with the High Court of
Justice in May 1997 charging that the Ministry of Education's refusal to
provide this program to Israeli Arab students was discriminatory.  The
Attorney General's office agreed that the policy constituted
impermissible discrimination but asked for 5 years to expand the program
to Israeli Arab students.  The petitioners rejected this proposal as
being too slow.  The court held hearings in the case twice in 1999;
however, it still had not ruled on the proper implementation period by
year's end.

Unresolved problems of many years' standing also include claims by Arab
groups that land expropriation for public use has affected the Arab
community disproportionately; that Arabs have been allowed too little
input in planning decisions that affect their schools and
municipalities; that mosques and cemeteries belonging to the Islamic
Waqf (religious endowment) have been neglected or expropriated unjustly
for public use; and that successive governments have blocked the return
to their homes of citizens displaced in the early years of the country's
history.  The Government has yet to agree with the pre-1948 residents of
the northern villages of Bir Am and Ikrit, and their descendants,
regarding their long-term demand to be allowed to rebuild their houses.
In 1997 a special interministerial panel recommended that the Government
allow the villagers to return to Bir Am and Ikrit.  The High Court has
granted the Government several extensions for implementing the
recommendation, including 2 extensions during the year.  The Government
stated that a special interministerial panel currently is examining
economic aspects of the issue.

In early October, there were many instances of societal violence between
Arab and Jewish citizens which coincided with violent events in Israel
and the occupied territories (see Sections 1.a., 1.c., and the annex).
For example, on October 3, an Israeli Arab shot and killed an Israeli
Jew on a road in the north of the country.  On October 7, a group of
about 200 Israeli Jews attacked Arab Israeli homes in predominantly
Jewish Upper Nazareth.  On October 8, a group of about 1,000 Israeli
Jews attacked Arab Israeli homes in Nazareth.  Two persons were killed
and approximately 50 persons were injured in these attacks (see Sections
1.a. and 1.c.).  Jewish citizens also attacked Arab homes, businesses
that employed Arabs, and two mosques in other areas of the country.
During the October disturbances, Arab protesters also attacked
Jewish-owned businesses throughout the country, and in at least one case
Arab crowds attacked a synagogue.

In 1991 the Government launched Operation Solomon, which airlifted
14,000 Ethiopian immigrants to the country.  There were occasional
reports of societal discrimination during the year.

Organized Russian gangsters have increased prostitution in
Israel..............

  According to Amnesty International (AI), every year hundreds of women
>from the former Soviet Union are brought to Israel by well-organized
criminal networks and forced through violence and threats to work
illegally as prostitutes.  According to some local NGO's, thousands of
women are trafficked into the country annually.

In June the Government enacted a law that prohibits the trafficking of
persons for the purpose of prostitution.  Prostitution per se is not
illegal; however, the operation of brothels and organized sex
enterprises is outlawed, as are many of the human rights abuses
perpetrated by traffickers and pimps, such as assault, rape, abduction,
and false imprisonment.

Traffickers reportedly often lure women into coming to the country by
offering them jobs in the service industry.  In many cases, traffickers
meet women at the airport and confiscate all of their official
documents.  Many trafficked women are forced to live and work under
extremely harsh conditions and to give most of the money they earn to
their bosses.  The women reportedly often are raped and beaten, and
often are afraid to report their situation to the police because they
are in the country illegally.

According to press reports, brothels are ubiquitous despite being
illegal, and police officials estimate that there are 25,000 paid sexual
transactions every day.  Police often detain trafficked women following
raids on brothels.  The Minister of Interior has broad powers to deport
illegal aliens and to hold them in detention pending deportation.  The
Ministry may issue deportation orders against any person who is in the
country without a residence permit and may hold the deportee in
detention following the issuance of a deportation order.  The deportee
can appeal the deportation order to the Ministry within 3 days of its
issuance and also can challenge the order in the High Court.  However,
trafficked women often do not challenge a deportation order due to
language barriers or a lack of information about the appeals procedure.
Many trafficked women are detained for extended periods of time because
of government orders that they stay in the country to testify in the
criminal proceedings against their traffickers.  Many women are
reluctant or afraid to testify in trials due to threats and intimidation
by their traffickers.  According to AI, women refuse to testify in court
in about 90 percent of all the cases that are prosecuted.   Since 1997
police have arrested and deported approximately 1,200 women who were
trafficked to the country for prostitution.  According to AI, the
Government does not attempt to determine whether or not a trafficked
woman would be at risk for persecution if she is deported to her country
of origin, even in cases in which the woman or girl has testified in
criminal proceedings.

1/ The human rights situation in the occupied territories is discussed
in the annex appended to this report.



NEXT POSTING......

[End.]






From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:02 EST 2001
Article: 259513 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAC0A66.9A5145FD@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Zionist occupation regime to demolish more Arab homes in East Jerusalem
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 44
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:29:42 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.126
X-Trace: news1.atl 984353255 208.63.207.126 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:27:35 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:27:35 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175757 soc.culture.israel:329189 soc.culture.usa:607256 soc.culture.canada:259513 soc.culture.british:555297


Zionist occupation regime to demolish more Arab homes in East Jerusalem

Occupied Jerusalem: 11 March, 2001 (IAP News) - The Zionist municipal
council in Jerusalem, headed by the extremist and racists mayor Ehud
Olmert, has reportedly allocated a special budget of a million Israeli
Shekels (roughly 270,000 US dollars) to finance the demolition of
Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem.

According to zionist sources, Olmert is planning to embark on a
widespread
campaign to destroy hundreds of Palestinian homes which he alleged were
built despite the council's refusal to grant proprietors building
licenses.

Olmert adopted a selective policy toward building and zoning in
Jerusalem
based on ethnic cleansing and racial and religious discrimination.

According to Meir Margalet, a member of Jerusalem's municipal board, the

planned house-demolition campaign is aimed at pushing the Palestinian
citizens of the city to leave it in order to create a more favorable
demographic situation for the Jews.

"They simply want to expel non-Jews from Jerusalem in order to create a
Jewish fait accompli, it is a racist policy of ethnic cleansing, there
is
no other name for it."

Palestinian officials in Jerusalem, including Faisal Husseini, condemned

the new wave of home demolition, calling it "virulent apartheid."

"No other country on earth demolishes homes because the proprietor has a

different religion."

   _______________________________________________________________
                Proudly Serving Palestine and Al-Quds


     Islamic Association for Palestine



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:02 EST 2001
Article: 259518 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAC11E7.C24E0B7B@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 58
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:01:43 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.126
X-Trace: news2.atl 984355176 208.63.207.126 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:59:36 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:59:36 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175758 soc.culture.israel:329195 soc.culture.usa:607284 soc.culture.canada:259518 soc.culture.british:555308


Israeli occupation army bombs Hebron, attacks journalists, cameramen

Al-Khalil (Hebron), Palestine: 11 March, 2001 (IAP News) - Israeli
occupation troops last night bombarded three civilian neighborhoods in
this Arab town, causing a number of casualties and inflicting heavy
material damage to buildings and residential houses.

Palestinian hospital sources in al-Khalil  reported that 9 civilians
were
hospitalized as a result of the bombardment in which artillery and heavy

machine guns were used.

Two persons reportedly sustained moderate to serious injuries; they are
Nabil Muhammed Abu Ali of the nearby town Yatta, and 25-year old Yasser
Eshtayeh, who was hit by shrapnel in the face during heavy bombardment
of
the Abu Sneineh neighborhood.

Meanwhile, Israeli settlers went on the rampage in the old town
Saturday,
attacking Palestinian pedestrians and vandalizing Arab property.

No reason was given for the wanton violence, but one settler was quoted
by
the Hebrew radio as saying that what they did was "part of our Shabbat
activities."

Nonetheless, when some Palestinian cameramen sought to film the settler
violence against the defenseless Palestinians, both the settlers and
Israeli army troops attacked the cameramen, injuring at least one,
identified as Mazen Da'ana, in the face.

Later on, the occupation army re-imposed a curfew on the old town of
al-Khalil, forcing some 35,000 Palestinians into their homes, while
leaving
ultra-extremist settlers strolling the streets.

   _______________________________________________________________
                Proudly Serving Palestine and Al-Quds

========================================
One reason I copy the british NG so often is to remind you that had
Britain
not pursued its policy of allowing Jews to immigrate into Palestine,
which
Britain had no moral right to do, nor legal right either had the
Palestinians
been consulted, things would not be at this sorry pass.
Notice the remarks of the crazy settlers that wanton violence is "part
of our Shabbat
activities."  Isn't that nice, that they can celebrate their holy day
that way?
Lewis Carroll would go crazy, and George Orwell would have to write
another prophetic book.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:02 EST 2001
Article: 259520 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAC12CC.522F6D10@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Peres says UN resolution 194 not part of peace process
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 48
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:05:32 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.126
X-Trace: news2.atl 984355404 208.63.207.126 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:03:24 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:03:24 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175759 soc.culture.israel:329196 soc.culture.usa:607287 soc.culture.canada:259520 soc.culture.british:555312


Peres says UN resolution 194 not part of peace process

Occupied Jerusalem: 11 March, 2001 (IAP News) - Israeli Foreign Minister

Shimon Peres claimed on Sunday that the Palestinian refugees' right to
return to their native hometowns and villages from which the Israeli
army
expelled them in 1948 was not part of the peace process.

The Israeli state-run radio quoted Peres as saying that UN resolution
194,
which grants the refugees repatriation to their homes and restitution
for
lost property and suffering, was not part of the Oslo process.

"We only agreed to talk about it, but we never agreed to accept that
right," said Peres.

Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat on Saturday said any
peaceful
settlement between the Palestinians and  Zionist regime would have to be

based on UN resolutions 242 and 338 as well as the resolution 194.

The plight of the now-estimated 4 million Palestinian refugees is widely

considered the essence of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Refugee leaders in Palestine and in the Diaspora have warned Arafat and
other PA officials against tampering with the inalienable right of
return,
arguing that no leadership or regime can possibly sign away such a
natural
right of people to return to their homeland.

   _______________________________________________________________
                Proudly Serving Palestine and Al-Quds

     Islamic Association for Palestine

=================================
Do you remember, sports fans that this man Peres (Persky) got
a Nobel peace prize?  Obviously they went astray with that one.
Because with this remark, he has destined Israel to a long
guerilla war.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:03 EST 2001
Article: 259527 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAC1E45.9C23CED2@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Israel Shamir To the Editor of the Globe and Mail Re: it is time to end 
 intifada
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 57
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:54:29 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.126
X-Trace: news3.atl 984358341 208.63.207.126 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:52:21 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:52:21 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175769 soc.culture.israel:329209 soc.culture.canada:259527 soc.culture.usa:607311

The following is the letter to editor of Canadian Globe and Mail, who
called in his editorial to end intifada.
To the Editor of the Globe and Mail

Re: it is time to end intifada


The intifada is like a scream of an abused child who kicks the door of
the dark room where his tormentors have locked him up. If he does not
scream, he will remain there, in the wet cellar with rats, forever. The
Palestinian response to our persecutions is a minimal one, and it hardly
inconveniences us, the Israeli Jews. They just throw stones on the
outskirts of their villages. My ancestors, Russian Jews, responded to
the limitations imposed on the Jews by the Russian Empire by killing a
couple of Tsars, a lot of ministers and officials, and eventually by
killing and sending into exile the majority of the Russian ruling class.
A little reading of history will
reveal a shocking fact: the limitations and the pograms of the Tsars
were modest in comparison with those that we, the Israelis, impose on
the Palestinians.


There is a way to stop violence in the Holy Land. Palestinian Christians
and Moslems must have the same rights as Jews. If Jewish property is
sacred, then Gentile property must be sacred as well. If a Jewish life
is sacred, so must be a life of a Gentile. If a Jew is free to move, so
must be a Gentile.


If this does not come to pass, the rage of the vanquished could
reverberate around the world. It could even reach Toronto. The
Palestinians could remember the Canadian passports issued to Mossad
assassins. They could remember the Park of Canada built by the Canadian
Jews
on the site of Emmaus, a Palestinian village where Jesus shared bread
with Cleopas. The Israeli Army destroyed it in 1967; and its
inhabitants, descendants of Cleopas, now throw rocks on the doorsteps of
their refugee camps. The nearly unanimous international consensus in
support of
Palestinian rights is at present hostile to neither Canada nor to Jews
generally. But if support for the occupation and for apartheid continue,
the wave of retribution that Canada and we Jews may have to face one day
is dreadful to contemplate.


Israel Shamir, Jaffa

===============================

The Globe & Mail put out a bigoted article stating that the intifada was
a crime.
They do that.
RLA






From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:03 EST 2001
Article: 259528 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!codeine.org!nerim.net!isdnet!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAC21F0.833371B3@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Defining violence By Gideon Levy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 102
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:10:08 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.126
X-Trace: news1.atl 984359280 208.63.207.126 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:08:00 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:08:00 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175770 soc.culture.israel:329210 soc.culture.usa:607312 soc.culture.canada:259528 soc.culture.british:555327

Haaretz internet edition, Sunday, March 11, 2001.

Defining violence By Gideon Levy


Who's a terrorist? Aida Fatahia was walking in the street; Ubei Daraj
was playing in the yard. She was the mother of three; he was nine years
old. Both were killed last week by Israel Defense Forces (IDF) bullets,
for no reason. Their killing raises once again, in all its horror, the
question of whether Palestinian violence is the only violence that
should be called terrorism. Is only car bombing terrorism, while
shooting at a woman and child is not?.Fatahia and Daraj join a long list
of men, women, and children who were innocent of wrongdoing and killed
in the past five months by the IDF. In the Israeli debate, their deaths
were not a result of "terror actions" or "terrorist attacks" and the
killers are not "terrorists." Those are terms used only for Palestinian
violence.

The right - and the left - in Israel always make that distinction:
Palestinian violence is terrorism; Israel only defends itself. The huge
gap between the numbers of innocent victims on both sides doesn't change
this one-sided definition. IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz, commander of
an army that has killed almost 90 children in the last five months,
calls the Palestinian Authority (PA) a "terrorist entity," and totally
ignores the actions of the army - and the results of those actions.

But the questions must be asked: Aren't massive land expropriations,
systematic house destructions, the uprooting of orchards and groves,
also a form of violence? Isn't cutting off entire towns and villages
>from their source of water a type of violence?

Isn't limitation on freedom of movement by slicing whole areas of the
population off from each other and denying medical attention to the
residents - even when it's a matter of life and death - any less painful
than highway shootings?

A pregnant woman whose baby dies or a patient who died because they
couldn't get to the hospital - something that has become almost routine
in the territories - aren't they victims of terrible violence? What
about the behavior of soldiers and police at checkpoints, on the roads,
everywhere? The humiliations and beatings, and the settler's own
violence against Palestinians - what should that be called?

For most Israelis, the violence is what the Palestinians are doing to
us. The Israeli reaction is always just a reaction, much more fatal,
perhaps, but a lot less ruthless. They blow up bombs in our markets, and
we only shoot at the planners, the inciters, and the terrorists.

So, sometimes chips may fly, as the saying lately goes, and some
innocents are also killed, but of course, nobody meant it. That's just
the way things are in war. That way, Israel always comes out the winner:
It doesn't intend to kill innocent people. But does the intention matter
to the many victims?

Israelis don't consider all of Israel's other steps - the sieges and
curfews, the expropriations and house destruction - violence, of course.
That's why Israel says it wants an end to the violence "and a return to
the status quo ante," whether as a condition, by Prime Minister Ariel
Sharon, or as a demand, by Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, for renewal of
the negotiations.

When Israel says it wants a return to the status quo before the
Intifada, it means it wants the Palestinians to stop their violence, and
then Israel's violence, which is only a defensive reaction to the
Palestinians', will naturally stop.

In other words, Israel wants the Palestinians to reassume their meek
surrender to the brutality of the occupation, while the violence of the
occupation continues.

Back in Oslo, both sides agreed to avoid violence, Israel claims, so the
current outbreak of violence is therefore a gross violation of the
agreement.

Moreover, since the Palestinians initiated the Intifada, - "they started
it" - the responsibility for stopping it is on their shoulders. But
wasn't the Intifada preceded by a series of violent acts by Israel,
which expropriated land, closed areas, uprooted farms, expelled people,
tortured suspects, dried up resources and destroyed homes - long before
the Intifada, and with no less violence than the Palestinians? Israel is
not demanding an end to that violence.

When it's only exploding buses and mortar rounds falling on settlements
that is defined as violence, it's easy to blame the other side for
violating agreements.

But that's not the whole picture. Israel is not ready in the same breath
to put an end to its own violence. The demand for an end to violence is
obviously right and justified. Violence - any violence - is wrong, and
an end to the violence has to be on the top of the agenda of any
political negotiation.

Israel can and should demand that the Palestinians silence their
weapons. But it should demand the same of itself, regarding all the
various weapons it uses against the Palestinians.

But when, as it did last week, Israel uses bulldozers to create
impassable barriers to and from 33 villages, and there's no way for an
ambulance or water container to get in, the demand for an end to the
violence is outrageously hypocritical. An end to the violence? Why
shouldn't Israel, as the stronger side, try being the first



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:03 EST 2001
Article: 259534 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAC44BE.F856E8B1@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Betty Molchany letter to CEO of YMCA of Canada
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 61
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:38:38 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.73
X-Trace: news2.atl 984368191 208.63.204.73 (Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:36:31 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:36:31 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175773 soc.culture.israel:329219 soc.culture.canada:259534 soc.culture.usa:607338



February 26, 2001

Sol Kasimer, Chief Executive Officer
YMCA of Canada


Dear Mr. Kasimer:

John Gray of the Globe and Mail, February 24, wrote that Canada YMCA
found fault with the International YMCA for its report of Israeli
violation of human rights and atrocities against the Palestinians in the
Occupied Territorities.

Mr. Kasimer, for more than 50 years, those of us born in the United
States and with little knowledge about the Middle East, believed all the
myths disseminated by political Zionists in Hollywood and throughout our
media.  Fortunately, in recent years, many of us have become
independent  of the media and no longer watch Hollywood or television
movies.   They are in what appears to be irrevocable disrepute.

I not only have access to videos and photographs on the Internet and
access to data from all over the world, but I also have many friends who
have been to Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza.  Their reports are
identical to the information stated in the reports of the International
YMCA.  On occasion, the truth appears even in committee hearings of the
United States Congress through groups such as Human Rights Watch and
Amnesty International.

So, I must believe that you know, as any reasonably intelligent person
in your position should know, that the reports of the International YMCA
are not only accurate and well documented, but are also courageous.
Following this conclusion, I must then ask why would you be condemn
these reports.  You cannot say that the International YMA has not
considered the Israeli point of view, given their many, many trips to
Israel and their support for Israel.

Is it because of your own ethnicity, your own religion, your lack of
compassion for an oppressed people, your own self-interest?  Has someone
intimidated you to criticize the International YMCA?  What did you say
when you learned that Israeli Defense Forces attacked the YMCA building
and their staff?  Did you justify this as you justify what Israel has
done to Palestinians beginning before 1948?

History will not be on your side, Mr. Kasimer.

Betty Molchany
Attorney at Law
31 Blue Ridge Avenue
Front Royal, VA  22630-3045

==================================
If you haven't been keeping up with this thread, the international Y
took a stand
for the beleaguered Palestinians.  The Canadian and American Y's
criticized
the international for doing so.
Betty Molchany is a tough fighter for the Palestinians.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:04 EST 2001
Article: 259556 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAD13A9.8852999@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics
Subject: Background information you should know: Rabbi Hier and his enterprises & 
 A.B. Data
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 91
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:21:29 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.31
X-Trace: news1.atl 984421191 66.20.148.31 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:19:51 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:19:51 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175827 soc.culture.palestine:113603 soc.culture.canada:259556 soc.culture.usa:607500 alt.politics:452632

Background information you should know:

A short, concise history of Rabbi Hier and his enterprises in Los
Angeles is found in,
"Members of the Tribe: On the Road in Jewish America" by Ze'ev Chafets
(Bantam Books. 1988) beginning on page 81. Michigan born Chafets is a
former
director of the Israeli Government Press Office under Shamir, a
journalist and
author of many books.)

Some briefs from the book:
    Rabbi Marvin Hier enterprises (the museum, Menachem Begin Yeshiva
High School, and a West Coast branch of NY's Orthodox Yeshiva
University) were bankrolled by Sam Belzberg,  a multimillionaire in
Vancouver.
    Heir employs "aggressive marketing, astute media management, and
emotional appeals to West Coast patriotism."
   Hier and his disciple, Rabbi Cooper, believe in acting aggressively
in order to counter anti-Semitism in America, and "employ a hot, angry
style just short of Meir Kahane's." Constantly on the lookout for issues
that appeal to the Jewish sense of vulnerability,  they are "active in
fighting Arab propaganda on the West Coast."  ...
    ."We address issues that people respond to,"  Rabbi Cooper told me.
"We monitor anti-Semitic statements, the activities of the neo-Nazis,
Arab
activities,  whatever:" ....
   Heir:  "Our focus is on the defense of Jews in America and
abroad.....The threat is everywhere and we will fight for the rights of
Jews anywhere."........
    "This kind of ambition requires big money, and the Wiesenthal Center

has been especially successful in raising it.  Like A.B. Data*in
Milwaukee, the
center operates mostly through direct mailings, a technique that brought
in 350,000 individual contributions in 1986, according to Rabbi
Cooper."  But not all of the center's money comes from ten-dollar gifts.
"Who runs the biggest fundraising dinner on the West Coast Jewish scene
with all the big mukhers in attendance?"  Heir demanded rhetorically.
"We do, that's who.  Why do they
come?  Because we are effective."  Marvin Hier's carpetbagging has
excited the anger and jealousy of fellow Jewish leaders."
    "Marvin Hier, David Arnow, and Israel Singer are self-appointed
Jewish leaders.  Singer's choice of Juan Peron as his model is apt; like
the late Argentinian statesman, he and his colleagues function in a
world without democracy.  The American Jewish community has no electoral
process, no constitution, and no publicly chosen representatives.  It
is, if anything, a
plutocracy---anyone with enough money can buy into the leadership
business."
    "The closest thing to a central organization is the Conference of
Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations.  But the conference is only an
umbrella group, and it deals exclusively with foreign affairs, such as
Israel or Soviet Jewry." ....
    "The real power in the Jewish community is vested not in the
presidents or the Peronistas, but in local Jewish federations around the
country.  The federations are the definitive expression of the communal
consensus in America.  Although they reflect the values and ideas of the

prosperous, respectable Jewish middle class, they are dominated by
millionaires. Edgar Bronfman and David Arnow may be wealthy enough to
own separate organizations, but most of the heavy hitters are connected
to the federations and, through them,  to Israel by way of the United
Jewish Appeal."

*Ze'ev writes:
"AIPAC deals in political retail but there is another, mass market
approach to Jewish political activity" located in the Milwakee suburb of
Fox Point, Wisconsin.
    A.B.Data,  a specialty operation founded  by Bruce Arbit and Jerry
Benjamin. is American's leading Jewish direct marketing firm.
.....they  "know more than anyone else about where American Jews are and

how they can be reached."
... their agenda is based first on "zionism."
...much of their work "is done for politicians who want to appeal to
Jews for support and financial contributions." They have 2 conditions
for working with politicians:
"They have to be pro-Israel" and  "liberal on American issues."  (Their
power of the purse was demonstrated when they raised $4 million for
Allan
Cranston in $20.00 checks.)  Barney Frank, Lowell Weicher, Jin Humt Carl
Levin
and Paul Simon were cited as some of their political clients.


_________________________________________________________________
No Return = No Peace March and Rally, New York City, 7 April 2001,
http://al-awda.org
___________________________________________________________



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:04 EST 2001
Article: 259561 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAD1E6B.2D53CE1E@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: MIFTAH Strongly Condemns Israeli Multiple Siege Policy
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 59
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:07:23 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.31
X-Trace: news3.atl 984423944 66.20.148.31 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:05:44 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:05:44 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175834 soc.culture.israel:329303 soc.culture.usa:607527 soc.culture.canada:259561



The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of
Global Dialogue and Democracy (MIFTAH)

Press Release: 12/3/2001

MIFTAH Strongly Condemns Israeli Multiple Siege Policy

The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and
Democracy (MIFTAH) expresses serious concern regarding Israel’s multiple
siege policy on the Palestinian territories. Since late September 2000,
Israeli authorities have intensified their siege on the West Bank and
the Gaza Strip, leaving tens of thousands of Palestinians stranded in
various cities, towns, and villages.

Most recently, Israeli authorities have carried out a complete closure
on the city of Ramallah, the nucleus of Palestinian economic, political,
and social life. Israeli soldiers have closed off the main road from
Ramallah to Jerusalem by placing barriers and checkpoints just outside
Qalandia refugee camp.

Earlier last week, Israeli soldiers destroyed the main road from
Ramallah to Birzeit, leaving 35 neighboring Palestinian villages
completely isolated from Ramallah and from each other. Israeli soldiers
dug 3 different trenches on the main road, making it almost impossible
for commuters to travel in and out of Ramallah, and disrupting the
education process of Birzeit University, home to almost 5,000
Palestinian students.

Israel’s policy of economic and social strangulation is causing serious
and irreparable damage on the Palestinian people across the West Bank
and the Gaza Strip. As a result of the closures, several Palestinian
villages and towns are suffering from serious shortages in food and
medicine, 274 schools (90,000 students) are unable to operate, basic
humanitarian and emergency services have been completely paralyzed from
reaching various Palestinian towns and villages, and the very
functioning of key Palestinian institutions has been seriously
disrupted, posing detrimental effects on the Palestinian nation-building
process.

MIFTAH strongly condemns Israel’s multiple-siege policy on the
Palestinian people, and calls upon the international community to take
immediate and concrete steps to end the ‘imprisonment of an entire
nation’.


For further information, please contact:
Public Information Department
MIFTAH
Tel: 00972-2-585 1842
WWW.MIFTAH.ORG

_________________________________________________________________
No Return = No Peace March and Rally, New York City, 7 April 2001,
http://al-awda.org
_________________________________________________________________




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:05 EST 2001
Article: 259563 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAD2771.ACDF6717@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israel's attack on Christianity
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 103
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:45:53 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.31
X-Trace: news3.atl 984426254 66.20.148.31 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:44:14 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 14:44:14 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175839 soc.culture.israel:329306 soc.culture.usa:607535 soc.culture.canada:259563 soc.culture.british:555472

Israel's attack on Christianity

Hassan Tahsin, guest contributor

June 13, 1997, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia

This article appeared in the Saudi Gazette, for which the author is a
senior
columnist

http://www.arab.net/arabview/articles/tahsin7.html

Most political observers believe that the hard-line policy being
followed by
the hawkish Israeli government is likely to do anything but further the
peace process. Aside from occupying Arab lands and carrying out what can

only be called ethnic cleansing, Israeli religious extremists have
entered
both the political and religious arenas. They believe that they are free
to
violate the principle of freedom of worship. They have attacked Islamic
sanctuaries in occupied Jerusalem but, fortunately, these moves have
been
fully exposed by the international media, including even the American
media.
Jewish religious extremists have not only attacked Muslims; they have
gone
beyond this in attacking Christians and denying them the right to
perform
their rituals.
At one time, it was difficult for the Jews to attack Christian shrines
directly. They were very wary of the possible reaction from the Western
Christian community. They abstained from any moves against Christians
because they feared losing their Western support. In fact, however, it
has
been the West which effectively helped the Jews to establish their
Zionist
identity on Palestinian Arab land. As they extended their influence,
they
did not hesitate to seize a building belonging to a Christian monastery.

They expelled the monks from the building under the pretext that it
belonged
to the Jews.

A few days ago, they intensified their attacks against Christianity and
the
Bible. The attacks on the New Testament -- that part of the Bible
dealing
with Jesus, his teachings, his followers and their doings -- were
particularly strong. Two Knesset members who also belong to an extremist

religious party presented a draft banning the possession of the New
Testament. The draft reads: "The circulation of any materials that
promote
Christianity will be treated as an illegal action." Thus the possession
of
the New Testament by any person would be considered a missionary
activity
which is against Israeli law. Those who illegally own, print or
distribute
articles and items that are used to tempt people to other religions
would be
liable to one year's imprisonment.

Every action by Christian missionaries, for example, would be considered

illegal and would be summarily banned. By reading the new law closely,
we
see that it is far tougher than the one currently effective in Israel.
The
new law would act as a deterrent to Christianity and Christian worship.
Surprisingly, the Christian reaction from within Israel has been very
weak.
The spokesman for the pro-Israeli International Christian Embassy in
Jerusalem said, "All the churches of the world have observed fasting and

performed prayers against this law." The question of course is whether
this
will be enough.

The spokesman expressed a fear that this law will result in a reduction
of
support for Israel among Anglican Christians. He did not, however, seem
afraid of the prosecution which might be faced by Christians in Israel;
he
seemed much more concerned about the interests of Israel itself. This
new
law against Christians is seen as a part of the settling of accounts
between
Jews and Christians whose differences and disputes go back many
centuries.
One of the Knesset members who presented the draft law said, "The Jewish

nation has suffered throughout its history from attempts at altering its

creed... what is the value of freedom of expression in comparison with
what
the Jewish people have suffered?"





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:05 EST 2001
Article: 259575 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAD5CE8.F52AD4F3@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Birzeit University and Community  March for an End to Collective 
 Punishment
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 56
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:34:00 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.31
X-Trace: news2.atl 984439937 66.20.148.31 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:32:17 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:32:17 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175851 soc.culture.israel:329323 soc.culture.usa:607580 soc.culture.canada:259575 soc.culture.british:555510

Note that Israel killed one young Palestinian in this march.
ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY!
RLA

       Birzeit University and Community  March for an End to Collective
Punishment
    Peace Must Be Built on Justice, Not on Ruin and Destruction

12 March 2001

Birzeit University faculty and staff are greatly heartened by the
community and international solidarity shown in the wake of the
Israeli army's destruction of the only road linking the University
and thirty-three surrounding rural communities to Ramallah.  On
12 March, on a bright spring morning,  hundreds of Ramallah
citizens, community leaders, representatives of NGOs,
legislators and governmental officials joined Birzeit faculty and
staff in a peaceful march and civil protest from Ramallah to the
trenches gouged out of the  road - the new "borders" in which
Ramallah, Birzeit and surrounding villages are imprisoned and
separated from each other.  Today, communal action is brought
into the forefront of the national agenda.

With an Israeli tank and outpost on the hill,  hundreds of
marchers climbed over the three trenches severing traffic on the
road holding signs and banners against collective punishment and
for academic freedom and Palestinian independence.  Striking a
very personal note, one faculty member with family in the
northern part of the West Bank held a banner with the simple
message:  "Open the roads! I want to visit my mother."

The Israeli army responded in the usual language of excessive
force,  hurling tear gas and shooting rubber bullets into the heart
of the march. At some point, and in response, youth began to
throw stones at Israeli jeeps positioned on the interesecting
road. Wave after wave of Palestinian ambulances rescued
marchers overcome by gas or hurt by bullets. Over 80 civilians
were injured. Tragically, it was too late for one young
Palestinian, Abdul Qadir Mohammad Ibrahim, who was killed
by two live bullets that lodged in the chest.

His death is both a grim  reminder of the almost 400 lost
Palestinian lives since 29 September 2000 - and a portent of
more bloodshed, loss of life and loss of  hope if Israel's policy of
siege and blockade is allowed to continue.

The national movement has called today for holding national
protest marches targetting the checkpoints of siege on
Wednesday, March 14th at midday. We appeal to you to
organize similar marches and activites worldwide, protesting the
strangulation of the Palestinian people and calling for the end of
Israeli Occupation. .  No peace can be built on the destruction
and ruin of another people, their society and their livelihoods.





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:05 EST 2001
Article: 259577 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAD5F7E.E1D21E1B@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Bir Zeit cut off
References: <3AA95783.A6C0FCA2@bellsouth.net>  <3AAA4135.DE96090D@bellsouth.net> <98e0bl$h77$1@uranium.btinternet.com>  <120320010717159256%albert@nethere.com> <98jbl9$l73$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 15
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:45:02 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.31
X-Trace: news2.atl 984440605 66.20.148.31 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:43:25 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:43:25 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175855 soc.culture.israel:329325 soc.culture.usa:607589 soc.culture.canada:259577 soc.culture.british:555515



meshehu wrote:

> In article <98jbl9$l73$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>, "William Black"
>  wrote:
>
> > In fact the only defence against the representative democracies seems to be
> > to adopt democracy.
>
> What's wrong with democracy?

Nothing.  Israel should try it.  You'll like it.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:06 EST 2001
Article: 259582 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAD74B2.40B7C2CD@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Plowing fields and roads in a life and death Palestinian struggle for 
 freedom By Ray Hanania 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 169
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:15:30 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.31
X-Trace: news2.atl 984446030 66.20.148.31 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:13:50 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:13:50 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175863 soc.culture.israel:329339 soc.culture.usa:607620 soc.culture.canada:259582 soc.culture.british:555529

Plowing fields and roads in a life and death Palestinian struggle for
freedom
By Ray Hanania
Monday, March 12, 2001

Ramallah, Palestine -- The hot sun beats down on a hillside field the
size of
a baseball diamond where a Palestinian man in a light shirt and baggy
old
pants tugs on the leather straps that navigates his horse and plow
through
the dry brown dirt and large rocks.
About 20 yards away at an intersection that connects two Palestinian
towns, a thousand Palestinians have gathered to peacefully call on
Israel to
end a three month siege that has imprisoned more than 600,000 civilians
in 33
nearby villages and towns.
The protesters are weary of the blockade which has frozen them from
their
jobs, prevented families from reuniting and forced them to ration food
and
water to stay alive. In the hills above, the Israelis have positioned a
camouflaged tank with its large cannon pointing directly at the protest
leaders. About 5 heavily armed Israeli soldiers position themselves
behind
armored personnel carriers and jeeps, watching as the protesters
approach the
dirt mounds.
They walk slowly but defiantly with their heads up in the air waving
Palestinian flags and banners that decry the new Israeli form of
"collective
punishment." Using heavy construction plows, the Israelis have dug deep
moats
through any of the roads, piling the crumbled rock, dirt and pavement
into
high mounds that blockade cars and traffic.
It is a cruel form of punishment in a land where cruelty has been
ratcheted up to new precedents in this on-going Palestinian Israel
battle.
When they reach the mounds, a yellow truck with a large plow slowly
drives up to begin pushing the dirt back into the trenches that cut the
roads
in half.
Not all of the Palestinians standing behind the plows that desperately
try to restore the roads to makeshift use are protesters. Many are just
civilians who are forced to walk the five miles between the two towns.
One old woman wearing a worn, colorfully embroidered Palestinian dress
balances a large and heavy burlap wrapped sack of vegetables
precariously on
her head. Her left arm swings nonchalantly while her right hand holds
the
bundle in place. She is followed by two young children drawn to the site
of
the crowds and colorful flags waving in the air above.
It is a bizarre scene, right out of the movie, Apocalypse Now. A boy
waving
one of the flags has a small black cellular phone tight against his
right
ear. Everyone has a cell phone, including the priests and Imams who join
in
the protest, the leaders at the head of the protest, and even the
Israeli
soldiers who watch from above. TV camera crews loiter nearby, waiting
for
"something" to happen. Many of the people there have come to protest.
Others
have come to watch.
No one is shouting. No one is throwing rocks. No one is doing anything,
accept staring as the plows attempt to restore the road.
And that is when you hear the sounds of several deep pops!
A thin trail of white smoke forms an arch of a cloudy rainbow that
shoots out from the muzzle of an Israeli soldier's mortar. The canister
bounces on the ground among the crowd and then pops again, bursting into
a
large cloud of tear gas burning the eyes of the civilians who duck for
cover.
The civilians scatter, but they quickly reform near the road blocks and
moats as the wind carries the deadly cloud away.
Two more deep pops and the eye follows the trail of smoke from the guns
above landing in the center of the protesters, who scatter again.
No one has thrown a rock. No one has fired a weapon at the Israelis.
Leaders of the protesters argue loudly with several young men who have
perched themselves along the hillside's rocky ridge, and scream at the
soldiers to stop.
When one young man bends down to pick up a stone, the symbol of the
Palestinian David in his fight against the Israeli Goliath, a new
crackling
sound replaces the tear gas.
And before a stone can even catapulted in the air in the direction of
the
soldiers, the Israelis in their bullet proof vests, wearing thick
helmets
have pulled the triggers on the guns that have been sighting the entire
time.
Many of the soldiers who fire are lining against the cinder block walls
of a Palestinian home whose occupants were removed at gun point and
occupied
by the soldiers many months earlier.
Palestinian ambulances, teetering on the edge of breakdown, race down
the
road from Ramallah through the scattering crowd in a bizarre scene.
Sirens
wailing. Red lights flashing, the white ambulance trucks with the Red
Crescent painted on their sides have an easy time finding victims who
randomly drop all around.
A 27 year old man who stood on a ridge more than 100 yards away from the

Israel soldiers, drops dead like a lifeless doll. Carrying bright orange

gurneys, medical personnel rush to the man's side and lift him onto
their
stretchers and race back to the cars. His name is Abdul Qadir Mohammad
Ibrahim. But that is all anyone knows.
Several others are rushed out on the shoulders of friends, blood gushing

>from the sides of their heads and shoulders. Steel ball bearings as
thick as
almonds and covered with plastic litter the ground. These "plastic
bullets"
are not plastic at all, and take their toll indiscriminately against
men,
women and even some children in the crowds.
It happens very quickly.
The ambulances drive in and out repeatedly. The Israeli armored carriers

and jeeps with their thick wire mesh across their windows and their blue

lights spinning, rush in to secure the road.
The protesters have run back along the roads and even through the field
where the farmer tries to pull his horse and plow out of danger's way.
Rock throwers, immortalized in the Biblical battle but cleverly
demonized
by an Israeli propaganda campaign, did not start this battle.
The Israeli soldiers did.
There was no reason to fire with live ammunition. The Palestinians just
wanted to open the roads that have put them in an economic choke hold.
But the local news reports that day and those later broadcast around the

world show three stone throwers in their report.
According to veterans of the first "Intifadah," or the Palestinian
rebellion, this Intifadah is worse than before. The suffering is
greater. The
Israeli cruelty is more perverse.
When it is all over, and the civilians have returned to their homes,
Israeli bulldozers return to dig out the deep trenches again, crushing
the
vegetables that have spilled from their burlap bag onto the useless
road.
And it isn't long before the farmer whose leather skin is tanned a deep
brown from the hot sun, returns to his field with his own plow. The
scene
will be repeated again at this intersection. There is very little else
he can
do.

(Ray Hanania's columns are archived on the web at www.hanania.com.)

============================================
We all need to remember that these are alien invaders of Palestine,
trying to drive the Palestinians out, and take it all.  Greed is
epitomized
by these greedy guts.
RLA

ISRAEL IS A TRULY HORRIBLE COUNTRY, AND ITS PEOPLE
ARE HORRIBLE.
rla



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:06 EST 2001
Article: 259587 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAD7F35.552DDB@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: McVay and his vanity site
References: <3AA2F365.D3C50118@bellsouth.net> <98b6av$3pt$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> <98b6o4$uhg$1@news.tht.net> <3AA9A0D2.B59B88B7@tampabay.rr.com> <98cod6$18hr$1@news.tht.net> <3AAA4030.F680365F@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 42
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:00:21 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.78
X-Trace: news3.atl 984448721 208.63.206.78 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:58:41 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:58:41 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175869 soc.culture.british:555550 soc.culture.canada:259587 soc.culture.usa:607632



Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > One ownders how many times Mr. McVay is going to spam the NG with this defamatory
> > tripe.
>
> That defamatory tripe is composed mostly
> of Giwer's own posts. Giwer's a nut, Roger,
> and your defense of him only shows you for
> the idiot you are. Giwer was known as a nut
> long before you got your first internet account.
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---

Giwer generally tries to state the facts, and to put them
into a context which may be somewhat idiosyncratic
but rational.  So far as I am able to determine,
he is not a nut.  I don't know anything of substance about the holocaust,
nor about biblical history, so I am again unable to judge whether he is right
or wrong about these subjects.  To the limited extent I have
been exposed to biblical history, it seems to me he is
right so far as I can check.
Again, so far as I can tell, he has no self interest involved.
You, for example, are an Israeli Jew.  You post about
the real or imagined grievances of another era, because
of course, the grievances of the last fifty years have all
been on the Palestinian side.  You support the nausea
which is Israel.  This behavior is despicable.  For an
intelligent person with a pretense of a moral upbringing
to do this is a moral sellout.  Giwer is not a sell out,
so nut or not, I have respect for him, none for you.
So far as McVay is concerned, he was bought and paid for
before he ever started his site.  Giwer is right about him,
McVay knows it and can't stand it, so he trashes
Giwer with those repeated spams.  The guy doesn't even
have the brains to figure out something new to say,
for God's sake.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:07 EST 2001
Article: 259593 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAD93E3.67ABFE85@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime 
 of Apartheid
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 387
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:28:36 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.78
X-Trace: news2.atl 984454014 208.63.206.78 (Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:26:54 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:26:54 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175881 soc.culture.israel:329354 soc.culture.palestine:113628 soc.culture.usa:607660 soc.culture.canada:259593

[[Needless to say, Israel did not ratify or even just sign this
Convention.
The reason for that will be evident.]]

International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime
of Apartheid

Adopted and opened for signature, ratification by General Assembly
resolution 3068 (XXVIII) of  30 November 1973
Entry into force 18 July 1976, in accordance with article XV

The States Parties to the present Convention,
Recalling the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, in which
all
Members pledged themselves to take joint and separate action in
co-operation
with the Organization for the achievement of universal respect for, and
observance of, human rights and fundamental freedoms for all without
distinction as to race, sex, language or religion,

Considering the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that
all
human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights and that
everyone
is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in the Declaration,

without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour or national
origin,

Considering the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial
Countries and Peoples, in which the General Assembly stated that the
process
of liberation is irresistible and irreversible and that, in the
interests of
human dignity, progress and justice, an end must be put to colonialism
and
all practices of segregation and discrimination associated therewith,

Observing that, in accordance with the International Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, States particularly
condemn racial segregation and apartheid and undertake to prevent,
prohibit
and eradicate all practices of this nature in territories under their
jurisdiction,

Observing that, in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of
the
Crime of Genocide, certain acts which may also be qualified as acts of
apartheid constitute a crime under international law,

Observing that, in the Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory
Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, "inhuman acts
resulting from the policy of apartheid" are qualified as crimes against
humanity,

Observing that the General Assembly of the United Nations has adopted a
number of resolutions in which the policies and practices of apartheid
are
condemned as a crime against humanity,

Observing that the Security Council has emphasized that apartheid and
its
continued intensification and expansion seriously disturb and threaten
international peace and security,

Convinced that an International Convention on the Suppression and
Punishment
of the Crime of Apartheid would make it possible to take more effective
measures at the international and national levels with a view to the
suppression and punishment of the crime of apartheid,

Have agreed as follows:

Article I
1. The States Parties to the present Convention declare that apartheid
is a
crime against humanity and that inhuman acts resulting from the policies
and
practices of apartheid and similar policies and practices of racial
segregation and discrimination, as defined in article II of the
Convention,
are crimes violating the principles of international law, in particular
the
purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, and
constituting a serious threat to international peace and security.
2. The States Parties to the present Convention declare criminal those
organizations, institutions and individuals committing the crime of
apartheid.

Article II
For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of
apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial

segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall
apply
to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing
and
maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other
racial
group of persons and systematically oppressing them:
(a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the
right
to life and liberty of person:
(i) By murder of members of a racial group or groups;
(ii) By the infliction upon the members of a racial group or groups of
serious bodily or mental harm, by the infringement of their freedom or
dignity, or by subjecting them to torture or to cruel, inhuman or
degrading
treatment or punishment;
(iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a
racial group or groups;
(b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living
conditions
calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in
part;
(c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a
racial group or groups from participation in the political, social,
economic
and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of
conditions
preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular
by
denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and
freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized
trade
unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to
their
country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement
and
residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right
to
freedom of peaceful assembly and association;
(d) Any measures, including legislative measures, designed to divide the

population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and
ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of
mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the
expropriation of
landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members
thereof;
(e) Exploitation of the labour of the members of a racial group or
groups,
in particular by submitting them to forced labour;
(f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of
fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.

Article III
International criminal responsibility shall apply, irrespective of the
motive involved, to individuals, members of organizations and
institutions
and representatives of the State, whether residing in the territory of
the
State in which the acts are perpetrated or in some other State, whenever

they:
(a) Commit, participate in, directly incite or conspire in the
commission of
the acts mentioned in article II of the present Convention;
(b) Directly abet, encourage or co-operate in the commission of the
crime of
apartheid.

Article IV
The States Parties to the present Convention undertake:
(a) To adopt any legislative or other measures necessary to suppress as
well
as to prevent any encouragement of the crime of apartheid and similar
segregationist policies or their manifestations and to punish persons
guilty
of that crime;
(b) To adopt legislative, judicial and administrative measures to
prosecute,
bring to trial and punish in accordance with their jurisdiction persons
responsible for, or accused of, the acts defined in article II of the
present Convention, whether or not such persons reside in the territory
of
the State in which the acts are committed or are nationals of that State
or
of some other State or are stateless persons.

Article V
Persons charged with the acts enumerated in article II of the present
Convention may be tried by a competent tribunal of any State Party to
the
Convention which may acquire jurisdiction over the person of the accused
or
by an international penal tribunal having jurisdiction with respect to
those
States Parties which shall have accepted its jurisdiction.

Article VI
The States Parties to the present Convention undertake to accept and
carry
out in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations the decisions
taken
by the Security Council aimed at the prevention, suppression and
punishment
of the crime of apartheid, and to co-operate in the implementation of
decisions adopted by other competent organs of the United Nations with a

view to achieving the purposes of the Convention.

Article VII
1. The States Parties to the present Convention undertake to submit
periodic
reports to the group established under article IX on the legislative,
judicial, administrative or other measures that they have adopted and
that
give effect to the provisions of the Convention.
2. Copies of the reports shall be transmitted through the
Secretary-General
of the United Nations to the Special Committee on Apartheid.

Article VIII
Any State Party to the present Convention may call upon any competent
organ
of the United Nations to take such action under the Charter of the
United
Nations as it considers appropriate for the prevention and suppression
of
the crime of apartheid.

Article IX
1. The Chairman of the Commission on Human Rights shall appoint a group
consisting of three members of the Commission on Human Rights, who are
also
representatives of States Parties to the present Convention, to consider

reports submitted by States Parties in accordance with article VII.
2. If, among the members of the Commission on Human Rights, there are no

representatives of States Parties to the present Convention or if there
are
fewer than three such representatives, the Secretary-General of the
United
Nations shall, after consulting all States Parties to the Convention,
designate a representative of the State Party or representatives of the
States Parties which are not members of the Commission on Human Rights
to
take part in the work of the group established in accordance with
paragraph
1 of this article, until such time as representatives of the States
Parties
to the Convention are elected to the Commission on Human Rights.
3. The group may meet for a period of not more than five days, either
before
the opening or after the closing of the session of the Commission on
Human
Rights, to consider the reports submitted in accordance with article
VII.

Article X
1. The States Parties to the present Convention empower the Commission
on
Human Rights:
(a) To request United Nations organs, when transmitting copies of
petitions
under article 15 of the International Convention on the Elimination of
All
Forms of Racial Discrimination, to draw its attention to complaints
concerning acts which are enumerated in article II of the present
Convention;
(b) To prepare, on the basis of reports from competent organs of the
United
Nations and periodic reports from States Parties to the present
Convention,
a list of individuals, organizations, institutions and representatives
of
States which are alleged to be responsible for the crimes enumerated in
article II of the Convention, as well as those against whom legal
proceedings have been undertaken by States Parties to the Convention;
(c) To request information from the competent United Nations organs
concerning measures taken by the authorities responsible for the
administration of Trust and Non-Self-Governing Territories, and all
other
Territories to which General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV) of 14
December
1960 applies, with regard to such individuals alleged to be responsible
for
crimes under article II of the Convention who are believed to be under
their
territorial and administrative jurisdiction.
2. Pending the achievement of the objectives of the Declaration on the
Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, contained in

General Assembly resolution 1514 (XV), the provisions of the present
Convention shall in no way limit the right of petition granted to those
peoples by other international instruments or by the United Nations and
its
specialized agencies.

Article XI
1. Acts enumerated in article II of the present Convention shall not be
considered political crimes for the purpose of extradition.
2. The States Parties to the present Convention undertake in such cases
to
grant extradition in accordance with their legislation and with the
treaties
in force.

Article XII
Disputes between States Parties arising out of the interpretation,
application or implementation of the present Convention which have not
been
settled by negotiation shall, at the request of the States parties to
the
dispute, be brought before the International Court of Justice, save
where
the parties to the dispute have agreed on some other form of settlement.

Article XIII
The present Convention is open for signature by all States. Any State
which
does not sign the Convention before its entry into force may accede to
it.

Article XIV
1. The present Convention is subject to ratification. Instruments of
ratification shall be deposited with the Secretary-General of the United

Nations.
2. Accession shall be effected by the deposit of an instrument of
accession
with the Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Article XV
1. The present Convention shall enter into force on the thirtieth day
after
the date of the deposit with the Secretary-General of the United Nations
of
the twentieth instrument of ratification or accession.
2. For each State ratifying the present Convention or acceding to it
after
the deposit of the twentieth instrument of ratification or instrument of

accession, the Convention shall enter into force on the thirtieth day
after
the date of the deposit of its own instrument of ratification or
instrument
of accession.

Article XVI
A State Party may denounce the present Convention by written
notification to
the Secretary-General of the United Nations. Denunciation shall take
effect
one year after the date of receipt of the notification by the
Secretary-General.

Article XVII
1. A request for the revision of the present Convention may be made at
any
time by any State Party by means of a notification in writing addressed
to
the Secretary-General of the United Nations.
2. The General Assembly of the United Nations shall decide upon the
steps,
if any, to be taken in respect of such request.

Article XVIII
The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall inform all States of
the
following particulars:
(a) Signatures, ratifications and accessions under articles XIII and
XIV;
(b) The date of entry into force of the present Convention under article
XV;
(c) Denunciations under article XVI;
(d) Notifications under article XVII.

Article XIX
1. The present Convention, of which the Chinese, English, French,
Russian
and Spanish texts are equally authentic, shall be deposited in the
archives
of the United Nations.
2. The Secretary-General of the United Nations shall transmit certified
copies of the present Convention to all States.




_________________________________________________________________
No Return = No Peace March and Rally, New York City, 7 April 2001,
http://al-awda.org




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:07 EST 2001
Article: 259637 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEB51A.2AB33405@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Palestinian leaders downplay Israeli claims about relaxing siege
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 62
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:02:34 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.235
X-Trace: news3.atl 984528034 208.63.207.235 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:00:34 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:00:34 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175952 soc.culture.israel:329504 soc.culture.usa:607903 soc.culture.canada:259637 soc.culture.british:555665


Palestinian leaders downplay Israeli claims about relaxing siege

Occupied Jerusalem: 13 March, 2001 (IAP News) - Palestinian leaders
today
downplayed Israeli claims about relaxing the military and economic
blockade on Palestinian population centers in the West Bank, dismissing
Israeli reports as being "propaganda"  and "without substance."

PA information minister Yasser Abed Rabbo accused the zionist occupation

regime of launching a verbal public relations campaign to create a
favorable atmosphere ahead of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's
upcoming visit to the United States, while making no changes on the
ground.

The Israeli propaganda machine has beefed up its rhetoric in responce to

international criticism of its latest seige of Palestinain towns and
villages, saying they have actually "eased" the siege. But facts on the
ground reveal a different picture.

"As of now, there are no signs suggesting that the siege is being
relaxed.
Quite the contrary, in some areas, the siege is being tightened," said
Rabbo.

The Palestinian official's remarks were corroborated by villagers in the

Hebron and Nablus areas who reported that they were turned back to their

respective villages by Israeli soldiers manning roadblocks near the
places
of their residence.

The zionist occupation regime on Monday claimed her troops were relaxing

the siege on Nablus, Tulkarm, Jenin and Hebron but keeping it on
Ramallah,
alleging that a Palestinian guerilla cell was hiding in Ramallah and
preparing to carry out an attack inside 1948 mandate Palestine.

Palestinian officials scoffed at the zionist occupation regime claim,
describing it as "a concocted lie aimed at justifying their criminal
blockade of our towns and villages."

Sharon defended the internal siege on the West Bank, saying it was
necessary to thwart attacks against Israeli soldiers and settlers.

   _______________________________________________________________
                Proudly Serving Palestine and Al-Quds

     Islamic Association for Palestine

=======================================
Of course, Zionist means liar.  Israelis wouldn't tell the truth
even if it were in their interest.  They expect to have to lie
to the world where they can't conceal.
BTW, Sharon could have security for his settlers if he put them
in Tel Aviv.  HInt, hint.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:07 EST 2001
Article: 259638 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEB662.EE8A3491@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Ramallah = Warsaw Ghetto
References: <3AAD93E3.67ABFE85@bellsouth.net> <98kc18$2c75p$1@ID-66657.news.dfncis.de> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 32
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:08:03 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.235
X-Trace: news3.atl 984528362 208.63.207.235 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:06:02 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:06:02 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175954 soc.culture.israel:329506 soc.culture.palestine:113674 soc.culture.usa:607905 soc.culture.canada:259638

Well, that's mighty God damned White of you
Massa Medved.  Mighty White.
Might I just remind you that these are Palestinians
in Palestine?  That you have no right to be there and further no
right whatever to tell them what they can and cannot do
Your arrogance is beyond belief.

RLA

medved@shore.net wrote:

> In talk.politics.mideast torresD  wrote:
> > What is it with Israel?
> > First they place a chokehold on Palestinian
> > areas, and then fire on the people trying to
> > get out.
>
> Any Arab who wants to walk out of Ramallah is welcome to do so and
> will not be harmed. Those who bring bulldozers to try to break the
> barriers that the army has placed there will be stopped.
>
> > What is the difference between
> > the Gaza Strip, West Bank & Warsaw Ghetto?
>
> Read the above.
>
> > Israeli's this is not Worthy of YOU!!
>
> Stop the crap. You hate Israel and have no respect for it
> whatsoever, so the "worthy" in your sentence above is just a ruse.
> You just hate it when Israel defends itself.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:08 EST 2001
Article: 259641 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEC1C1.C790B60B@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Plowing fields and roads in a life and death Palestinian struggle  
 for freedom By Ray Hanania
References: <3AAD74B2.40B7C2CD@bellsouth.net> <3AAD81E5.15C7E141@pixar.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 65
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:56:34 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.235
X-Trace: news1.atl 984531272 208.63.207.235 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:54:32 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:54:32 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175959 soc.culture.israel:329517 soc.culture.usa:607918 soc.culture.canada:259641 soc.culture.british:555673

If you are trying for stupid post of the year, this is anexcellent entry.
RLA

Kim Bebbington wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:11:49 -0800, Michael Berenstein
>  wrote:
>
> >Roger Alexander wrote:
> >
> >Ramallah, Palestine -- The hot sun beats down on a hillside field the
> >
> >> size of
> >> a baseball diamond where a Palestinian man in a light shirt and baggy
> >> old
> >> pants tugs on the leather straps that navigates his horse and plow
> >> through
> >> the dry brown dirt and large rocks.
> >> About 20 yards away at an intersection that connects two Palestinian
> >> towns, a thousand Palestinians have gathered to peacefully call on
> >> Israel to
> >> end a three month siege
> >
> >This is a clear case of anti-arab, pro-zionist propaganda. How much are you
> >paid, rascalous jewish zionist racist nazi?
> >Check your numbers and adhere to the truth. Ever heard about the word
> >"library"?
> >In truth there were thousand palestinians plowing their fields, and only
> >one man piecefully asking "israelis" to abandon the orders of their nazi
> >commanders and fill the trenches.
> >
> >Everyone has a cell phone, including the priests and Imams who join
> >
> >> in
> >> the protest, the leaders at the head of the protest, a
> >
> >Wrong! That single palestinian man didn't have cell phone, he's too poor.
> >
> >> . TV camera crews loiter nearby, waiting
> >> for
> >> "something" to happen.
> >
> >Wrong. TV camera just happend to be around by a chance. It was forgotten by
> >zionazis' controlled media trolls.
> >
> >
> >> Many of the people there have come to protest.
> >> Others
> >> have come to watch.
> >
> >Watch what? Nothing was going to happen as many palestinians were
> >peacefully plowing their fields.
> >
> >> No one is doing anything,
> >
> >If plowing is doing nothing for you, zionazi servant, than you are nothing
> >more than a stinky servant of zionazis.
>
> Give roggie credit - He regards the ploughing of fields as a
> provocation. Anyone ploughing their fields is inciting violence and
> deserves to be shot!
>
> (Oh, I suppose I should add two conditions: The farmer must be an
> Israeli and the shooter must be a Syrian...)



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:09 EST 2001
Article: 259643 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEC2FB.A16C50CD@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Ramallah = Warsaw Ghetto
References: <3AAD93E3.67ABFE85@bellsouth.net> <98kc18$2c75p$1@ID-66657.news.dfncis.de> <3aaf2c5f.49279129@news.gulfstream.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 54
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:01:47 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.235
X-Trace: news1.atl 984531590 208.63.207.235 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:59:50 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:59:50 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175962 soc.culture.israel:329522 soc.culture.palestine:113678 soc.culture.usa:607923 soc.culture.canada:259643

And of course, the Israelis have no right to be there in the first place.
No right to put settlers there in the second place, and finally no right to
complain when those settlers are gently urged to leave using no more
force than necessary sort of a "molliter manus imposuit".
If you would just get out of the West Bank, you would find that
it was not necessary for you to maintain checkpoints.
Obviously, you believe you have the right to all of it, therefore
you maintain military there to help the ongoing expulsions.
You are real pieces of work, you Israelis.
RLA

Red Herring wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:43:57 -0000, "torresD"  wrote:
>
> >What is it with Israel?
> >First they place a chokehold on Palestinian
> >areas, and then fire on the people trying to
> >get out.
>
> Nonsense.  There is no chokehold on Pallie-occupied areas of the Eretz
> Yisrael.  Anyone who wants to get in or out of the areas can do so by going
> through an IDF checkpoint.  This only presents a problem for terrorists and
> their supporters, not ordinary Pallies.
> >
> >What is the difference between
> >the Gaza Strip, West Bank & Warsaw Ghetto?
>
> Are you trying to say that the nazis fired tear gas and rubber-coated
> bullets at the Warsaw Ghetto inhabitants?
>
> Why do all Pallie advocates inevitably reveal themselves as Holocaust
> revisionists?
>
> >
> >Israeli's this is not Worthy of YOU!!
> >
> >Israeli Troops Fire at Palestinians
> >Calling those that strongly disagree with
> >the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian people,
> >Anti-Semitie is dodging the issue.
>
> Can one be a Holocaust revisionist without being an anti-semite?
>
> >By NASSER SHIYOUKHI, Associated Press Writer
> >RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) -
> >
> >Israeli soldiers fired tear gas and rubber-coated
> >bullets Monday at hundreds of Palestinians using
> >a bulldozer to try to break through an Israeli army
> >blockade, part of a new chokehold on Ramallah.
>
> Se Vis Pacem Para Bellum



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:09 EST 2001
Article: 259644 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEC46D.56582998@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Ramallah = Warsaw Ghetto
References: <3AAD93E3.67ABFE85@bellsouth.net> <98kc18$2c75p$1@ID-66657.news.dfncis.de>  <3AADD774.9A2D460F@tampabay.rr.com> <98lfem$3n4$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 53
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:07:57 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.235
X-Trace: news1.atl 984531956 208.63.207.235 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:05:56 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:05:56 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175964 soc.culture.israel:329523 soc.culture.palestine:113679 soc.culture.usa:607926 soc.culture.canada:259644

And Mr. McVay is spamming the NG with this stuff.
Giwer beats him every time on facts so he is reduced
to namecalling.  It wouldn't be so bad if it were
original namecalling, but No! He has to put up the same
tired stuff every time.  He is getting to be as bad as
Matthew Ackerman.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3AADD774.9A2D460F@tampabay.rr.com>,
> Matt Giwer   wrote:
> >       No Israeli is worth a chimp's fingernail. Remember that.
>
> Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> plausible, he has lied** about what has been said in exchanges (while
> accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not
> to see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even
> when they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel*, and
> generally conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual
> and factual integrity that there seems to be no point in taking
> the time to read and respond.  For detailed and documented
> evidence of this, please refer to
> http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/
>
> If you do not enjoy the luxury of a news filter, simply delete Mr.
> Giwer's articles unread. With a few moments' practice, they are easy
> to identify.
>
> Mr. Giwer's handlers report that he has responded well to training, and
> now reacts in the prescribed manner, changing his userid each time the
> bell is sounded.
>
> Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special
> newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately
> ignored (the group has no users - it's just a convenient toilet for
> Matt's vomitus). If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,
> redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power,
> an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings.
>
> Crawler bait: mgiwer@gate.net Matthias Giwer
> Lincoln James  Matthias Giwer
> Kainee  Matt Giwer
> Rabbi Moshe Dreckschreiber
> Rabbi Dr. Gedalia Pashkvilkemacher
>
> --
>
>      "Denial of Science & The Science of Denial"
>           The Techniques of Holocaust Denial
>   http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 13 20:05:09 EST 2001
Article: 259645 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEC4B6.891B8F95@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Israel's attack on Christianity
References: <3AAD2771.ACDF6717@bellsouth.net> <98ln09$emd$1@plutonium.btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 29
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:09:10 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.235
X-Trace: news1.atl 984532028 208.63.207.235 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:07:08 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:07:08 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175965 soc.culture.israel:329524 soc.culture.usa:607927 soc.culture.canada:259645 soc.culture.british:555676

Welll, I didn't think about that before I put the sucker up.
I think you're right.
RLA

William Black wrote:

> Roger Alexander  wrote in message
> news:3AAD2771.ACDF6717@bellsouth.net...
> > Israel's attack on Christianity
> >
> > Hassan Tahsin, guest contributor
> >
> > June 13, 1997, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia
> >
> > This article appeared in the Saudi Gazette, for which the author is a
> > senior
> > columnist
>
> Now there's a newspaper that's not afraid to speak the truth,  as long as
> the degenerates ruling Saudi Arabia tell them what the truth is...
>
> Don't they execute Christian missionaries in Saudi anyway?
>
> --
> William Black
> ------------------
> On time, on budget, or works;
> Pick any two from three



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:40 EST 2001
Article: 259646 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEC6BF.449E1FC2@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Birzeit University and Community  March for an End to Collective 
 Punishment
References: <3AAD5CE8.F52AD4F3@bellsouth.net>  
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 22
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:17:51 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.235
X-Trace: news1.atl 984532550 208.63.207.235 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:15:50 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:15:50 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175967 soc.culture.israel:329525 soc.culture.usa:607931 soc.culture.canada:259646 soc.culture.british:555677



filer@hotmaildotcom.invalid wrote:

> In talk.politics.mideast David Lee Makowsky  wrote:
> > Why is Israel so stupid and acting so suicidal by keeping Bir Zeit
> > University open and also allowing such marches?
>
> Cuz they are a pluralistic liberal democracy.
>
> > dlm@mcs.net

Really?  Where is the pluralism?  In the "Jewish state"?
Give me a break.
The reason why Israel doesn't just go into area "A"
so-called and break heads is manifold, but for openers,
there is international opinion, even in its presently
more or less emasculated state (by the US),
and there is the problem of losing the odd soldier.
Yes I know they are all odd...
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:41 EST 2001
Article: 259649 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAED0BC.CFE8C1EA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british,alt.politics
Subject: Sharon's National Unity Government: Shoring Up the "Iron Wall" by Jeff 
 Halper
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 291
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:00:28 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news2.atl 984535106 208.63.207.228 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:58:26 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:58:26 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175971 soc.culture.israel:329530 soc.culture.usa:607935 soc.culture.canada:259649 soc.culture.british:555680 alt.politics:453702


Sharon's National Unity Government: Shoring Up the "Iron Wall"

MERIP Press Information Note 50

by Jeff Halper

March 13, 2001

(Jeff Halper is coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House
Demolitions, editor of News From Within and professor of anthropology at

Ben-Gurion University.)

Ariel Sharon's governing coalition, embracing both Shimon Peres and
hardline
rejectionists, exposes the contradictions in the conventional left-right

distinctions in Israeli politics. Over seven years after the Oslo
accords,
it is clear that Israeli leaders never envisioned a truly viable and
sovereign Palestinian state, only a "peace" that granted Palestinians a
limited independence within overall Israeli control. The three million
Palestinians who live in the Occupied Territories constitute the major
obstacle preventing Israel from the objective of continued control,
since
Israel can neither incorporate them as citizens nor rule them
indefinitely
under an increasingly repressive apartheid regime. The Oslo process,
capped
by the July 2000 Camp David summit and the Taba meetings in January,
offered
a form of occupation-by-consent. But when the occupation policies of
settlement, closure and military control did not break Palestinian
resistance and led instead to the second intifada, the broad moderate
left-center-right "consensus" in Israeli politics decided to reassert
more
direct authority.

Sharon's "national unity" government represents a closing of ranks
around
the rock-bottom refusal of Zionism and Israel to entertain the
possibility
of truly sharing this land with the Palestinians -- either in one state
or
in two. The role of the Sharon government is to generate such despair
among
the Palestinians that they will sue for surrender. It will strive to
dash
Palestinian hopes for a viable, sovereign state, to defeat the
Palestinians
once and for all. In this respect, "national unity" draws upon important

historical precedent.

DOCTRINE OF DESPAIR

In a famous article entitled "The Iron Wall," published in 1923, Ze'ev
Jabotinsky articulated a cardinal principle of the Zionist enterprise:
Zionism should endeavor to bring about a Jewish state in the whole land
of
Israel, regardless of the Arab response. Jabotinsky realized that
Palestinians were a national group with national aspirations, but was
willing to grant them only a kind of autonomy within a Jewish state
covering
the entire territory. He knew full well that this could not be
accomplished
without resistance. "Every indigenous people," Jabotinsky wrote, "will
resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves
of
the danger of foreign settlement. This is how the Arabs will behave and
go
on behaving so long as they possess a gleam of hope that they can
prevent
'Palestine' from becoming the Land of Israel."

For Jabotinsky, the trick was to extinguish that "gleam of hope."
According
to his doctrine of the "iron wall," the Palestinians will agree to
limited
civil and national rights only after their resistance is broken. "The
sole
way to an agreement," wrote Jabotinsky, "is through the iron wall, that
is
to say, the establishment in Palestine of a force that will in no way be

influenced by Arab pressure...A voluntary agreement is unattainable...We

must either suspend our settlement efforts or continue them without
paying
attention to the mood of the natives. Settlement can thus develop under
the
protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population,
behind
an iron wall which they will be powerless to break down."

Though Jabotinsky is often dubbed an extremist figure, historian Avi
Shlaim
contends that his "iron wall" doctrine became central to Israel's
approach
to the Palestinians. Addressing the Jewish Agency Executive after the
outbreak of the Arab revolt in 1936, David Ben-Gurion, first prime
minister
of the state of Israel and grandfather of the modern Labor Party, said:
"A
comprehensive agreement is undoubtedly out of the question now. For only

after total despair on the part of the Arabs, despair that will come not

only from the failure of the disturbances and the attempt at rebellion,
but
also as a consequence of our growth in the country, may the Arabs
possibly
acquiesce to a Jewish Eretz Israel." Ben-Gurion not only agreed with
Jabotinsky, but argued that peace was only desirable if it advanced the
Zionist agenda: "It is not in order to establish peace in the country
that
we need an agreement...peace for us is a means. The end is the complete
and
full realization of Zionism. Only for that do we need an agreement."

THE IRON WALL COALITION

Applied to the current context, Shlaim's historical work suggests that
adherence to the iron wall approach might be a better way to categorize
political figures than support for or opposition to the Oslo accords.
Shlaim's analysis lumps what we might call the "Ben-Gurion" Laborites --

those Labor Party stalwarts, including Shimon Peres, who supported
participation in the Sharon government -- together with Likud, the
direct
descendant of Jabotinsky and Menachem Begin's Revisionists. What unites
them
is their common acceptance of the "iron wall" approach to the Arab world
--
and to Palestinians in particular. On the other side of the iron wall
are
the moderate "doves" of both Labor and Meretz, the more radical Jewish
left
and Palestinian citizens of Israel. Yitzhak Rabin and Peres have been
characterized in Israel as "yonetz," an ambivalent and confused mixture
of
"dove" and "hawk."

The broad middle-right coalition encompasses both Likud and Peres and
mainstream Labor, the latter epitomized by Defense Minister Binyamin Ben

Eliezer, another Laborite army general. "National unity" includes other
sectors of Israeli society as well: the Sephardi Shas party, other
orthodox
parties, the Russian immigrant parties and the far right, like Rehavam
Ze'evi's Moledet, which advocates "transferring" Palestinians out of the

Occupied Territories. Sharon's government can muster 73 votes out of the

Knesset's 120 -- more if we include some right-wing factions that did
not
join for various reasons.

The Sharon-Peres-Ben Eliezer bloc believes it is possible to build
Jabotinsky's "iron wall." Their reading of the political map leads them,
as
it did in 1993, to the conclusion that the Palestinians are defeated.
Israel
enjoys the almost unanimous support of the US Congress and media, as
well as
the Bush administration. US backing renders irrelevant the periodic
protests
of other international parties, including the UN and the European Union.

Dependency on the US and Europe on the part of Arab and Muslim
countries, as
well as considerable common interests with Israel, effectively nullify
them
as well. Israel exists in an absolutely protected bubble. The "national
unity" coalition considers that the Palestinian Authority (PA) has lost
the
confidence of the people and is on the verge of collapse. As in 1993,
the PA
will only be useful if it finally "settles" with Israel. Sharon's idea
of
"settling" does not include 88-96 percent of the West Bank, all of Gaza
and
pockets of East Jerusalem -- the ideas bandied about by Barak and
Clinton --
but rather the 42 percent of the West Bank currently classified as Areas
A
and B, the 60 percent of Gaza containing large Palestinian population
centers and none of East Jerusalem. So far the Palestinian street is the

only effective force for frustrating the "iron wall" approach -- and it
is
being ruthlessly suppressed.

A FUTURE OF "NATIONAL UNITY"

Since Israeli control of the Occupied Territories is virtually the only
issue upon which "national unity" can be based, it is not surprising
that
Sharon's "national unity" government has no political program other than
to
engineer the surrender of the Palestinians. As Doron Rosenblum, an
Israeli
commentator, put it: "We have never had a government for more
pessimistic
reasons than this one: its agenda is completely hidden and unknown...It
is
making no promises other than to 'bring back security'."

But the Sharon government will not be long-lived. The cabinet is
unwieldy,
consisting of eight parties and 26 ministers, and financial and other
domestic issues could cause its collapse in the months ahead. At any
rate,
general elections must be held by November 2003. With Sharon's election,
the
Knesset also abolished direct election of the prime minister. Israel
will
revert to the old system, whereby voters vote only for party lists, and
the
leader of the largest vote-getting party then forms the government. This

arrangement will restore the parliamentary dominance of two or three
large
party blocs (Labor, Likud and perhaps Shas), instead of the extreme
fragmentation of the the past two Knessets that undermined the stability
of
the Netanyahu and Barak governments. The Labor-left bloc has far fewer
potential partners than the Likud-Shas bloc, and will find it difficult
to
form a government in future elections. But since Labor garners more
votes
than Likud, both Labor and Sharon see the abolition of direct election
as a
way of blocking Netanyahu's return to power.

Two conclusions may be drawn from all this. First, the vast majority of
parties in the Knesset are committed to the "iron wall" approach, making

further repression of the Palestinians more likely. Last week, the
Israel
Defense Forces isolated Ramallah, Birzeit University and some 33
villages,
digging deep trenches and stationing tanks in the roads, and the
Jerusalem
municipality has announced it will begin demolishing dozens more
Palestinian
homes. Second, even if the Labor Party had a plan beyond the "iron
wall," it
probably could not form a government that could transcend that policy in

practice. We are likely to see national unity governments in Israel --
formal or de facto -- for some time to come. A just and lasting peace
will
not emerge from within Israel; only international pressure can save the
Palestinians from being crushed by the iron wall.

(When quoting from this PIN, please cite MERIP Press Information Note
50,
"Sharon's National Unity Government: Shoring Up the 'Iron Wall,'" by
Jeff
Halper, March 13, 2001. He can be reached at icahd@zahav.net.il.)

-----

For analysis of the factors contributing to Sharon's election, see:

MERIP Press Information Note 46: Israel Elects Sharon: Contradictions of
a
Creeping Apartheid:
http://www.merip.org/pins/pin46.html

MERIP Press Information Note 41: Beyond the Bibi Bill: Israel's
Electoral
System and the Intifada:
http://www.merip.org/pins/pin41.html

For analysis of the occupation policies behind the current uprising, see

Jeff Halper's "The 94 Percent Solution: A Matrix of Control," in Middle
East
Report 216 (Fall 2000). The article is accessible online at:
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer216/216_halper.html

For more historical analysis, see Avi Shlaim, The Iron Wall: Israel and
the
Arab World (W.W. Norton, 1999).

   _______________________________________________________________




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:41 EST 2001
Article: 259654 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEE04F.586977D8@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Sharon: A Practical Manual : Uri Avnery:
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 198
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:06:56 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news2.atl 984539093 208.63.207.228 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:04:53 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:04:53 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175982 soc.culture.palestine:113683 soc.culture.israel:329547 soc.culture.usa:607960 soc.culture.canada:259654

Uri Avnery:


                                      Sharon: A Practical Manual

     People in Israel and abroad, who believe that I am somewhat of an
expert on Sharon, have asked me how to deal with him. Here are some
practical suggestions:

       1. Don't underrate him. That is the first rule. Over the course
of
time, many have made that mistake and paid for it dearly. That is what
happened, recently, to the two twin wizards, Benjamin Netanyahu and Ehud

Barak. Sharon does not belong in the same league as Haim Ramon and he is
not
a Barak look-alike. He belongs in another league altogether.

     2. He will not be a primus inter pares. In theory, cabinet
ministers
are equal, the Prime Minister being only the first among them. In the UK
and
other countries, the chief of the government is indeed called so: Prime
Minister or First Minister. This principle was undermined in Israel,
when
the law for the direct election of the Prime Minister was enacted. Some
believe that the wheel can be turned back by the annulment of that law.
All
this does not concern Sharon. Even if he were merely the Minister for
Tourism, he would have been the dominant figure in the government,
because
of his intrinsic weight. For example, he never gives up on a matter that
is
important to him. When the government rejects his proposal, he puts it
on
the agenda again and again, in one form or another, until the
composition of
the meeting is right and his proposal is accepted. Now, as a Prime
Minister
elected directly by a crushing majority, his standing will be even
higher.
The composition of the government itself is not really important  - it
will
approve everything he wants.

     3. Don't pay attention to what he says, pay attention only to what
he
does. Sharon does not tell the truth, nor does he lie. As Voltaire said,
he
uses words only to hide his thoughts. When he prepares for war, he
speaks of
peace. The words serve to make the listener relax, put him to sleep, get
him
confused, mislead him, deceive him, divert his attention. According to
the
biblical injunction: "And with ruses make war." (So says the Hebrew
original.) Ben-Gurion wrote about him: "If he would get rid of his
faults,
such as not telling the truth…he would be an exemplary military leader."
At
another time Ben-Gurion asked him if he had weaned himself from "telling

untruths". Many people believe that he did not tell Menachem Begin the
truth, either. All this was to obtain their approval for operations he
wanted to undertake.

     4. How will he operate? The center of gravity will shift from the
television studios to "Sycamores Farm", his private estate. This is, for
the
time being, the end of the era when television displaced the Knesset and
the
parties as the sole political arena. Most work will be done in private
conversations between Sharon and his assistants and by the transmission
of
his orders.

     5. What is his real world-view? Sharon believes in the classical
Jewish-Zionist premises. His world is divided between Jews and Goyim
(non-Jews), all Goyim being potential enemies. Jews are allowed to use
all
possible means available, otherwise the Goyim will destroy them.
Universal
values are nonsense. It's us against all of them, all of them against
us. As
a popular Israeli song goes: "All the world is against us, but we don't
give
a damn." Or, to quote the Bible: "The people shall dwell alone" (Numbers

23,9).

     6. What is his Zionist outlook? Sharon continues the classical line
of
Ben-Gurion, i.e. an ethnic Jewish state without fixed borders, that uses

every opportunity to expand and settle. This outlook was expressed
brilliantly by Moshe Dayan in a famous funeral speech after a friend was

killed by Arabs: "Who are we that we should argue against their (the
Arabs')
hatred? …Before their eyes we turn into our homestead the land and the
villages in which they and their forefathers have lived…We are a
generation
of settlers, and without the steel helmet and the cannon we cannot plant
a
tree and build a house. Let us not shrink back when we see the hatred
fermenting an filling the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs, who
dwell
all around us. Let us not avert our eyes, so that our hand shall not
slip.
This is the destiny of our generation, the choice of our life: to be
prepared and armed, strong and tough, otherwise the sword will slip from
our
fist and our life will be snuffed out." And, lest it be understood that
this
is the destiny of his generation only, Dayan added in another speech, at
a
meeting of young people on the Golan: "Let no Jew say: this is the end
of
the job. Let no man say: we are approaching the end of the way. No, on
no
account…This is a process that has gone on for a hundred years. We have
to
contribute our part, as much as possible, but not to say: here we are,
we
have finished."

     7. Can he make peace? The world always longs for the man of the
Right
who will make peace. That makes it easy, because the man of the Right
will
bring his camp with him, while the support of the Left is assured. (For
the
same reason, it is easier for a government of the Left to make war or
break
strikes.) The example of Charles de Gaulle causes people to think that a

Rightist general is the ideal person to make peace. But Sharon is no de
Gaulle. His mental world is quite different. However, he is quite
capable of
making a temporary agreement or a partial settlement, if that gives him
an
advantage in pursuing the war.

     8. What is his principal aim? Since his aim is to expand the
homogenous
Jewish State and settle on the land, the enemy is the Palestinian
people.
Sharon will use every means - brute force, ruses, creating divisions -
to
break their resistance.

     9. So what will he do? Nobody but he knows. He always has grand
designs, which he is ready to put into effect when circumstances allow.
They
are always based on a simplistic perception, and therefore liable to
flounder on the rock of reality. It is probable that he has not given up
his
plan of inviting the Palestinians to topple the King of Jordan and
establish
"Palestine" over there. If there were no settlements on the Golan
Heights,
he could offer the Syrians a separate peace, in order to outflank the
Palestinians. He is toying with the idea of a grand alliance with
Russia,
especially if the Americans try to put  pressure on him. Against the
Americans he will use all possible ruses, so as to prevent them from
sabotaging his plans.

     10. Can his coalition partners divert him from his course? That is
a
ridiculous idea. The Labor party is joining him in a state of
bankruptcy, he
has a deep contempt for Shimon Peres. Between Sharon and Ze'evi there is
no
difference, save one: Sharon knows that the eviction of multitudes of
Arabs
is possible only in special circumstances, and until then it is better
to
keep quiet. He believes that Ze'evi's frequent declarations about the
"transfer" of Arabs are a big mistake.

     11. Maybe he will change? A person like Sharon does not change.
When it
serves his aims, he can pretend to have changed, as he did in the last
election campaign, when he depicted himself as the good old grand-father
who
loves children and sheep. His appearance as a heavy-set farmer aids him
in
this. But this is a ruse like all the others.




_________________________________________________________________
No Return = No Peace March and Rally, New York City, 7 April 2001,
http://al-awda.org
_________________________________________________________________



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:41 EST 2001
Article: 259655 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEE155.EBCBB292@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israel tries to assassinate Marwan Barghouthi, Fatah leader
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 44
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:11:17 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news2.atl 984539356 208.63.207.228 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:09:16 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:09:16 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175983 soc.culture.israel:329548 soc.culture.usa:607961 soc.culture.canada:259655 soc.culture.british:555692

>From Jerusalem Post, 3/13/01 - jpost.com

(09:05) Report: Liquidation attempt on Fatah head

            Palestinians are reporting that Israel failed in an
            assassination attempt on Fatah leader Marwan
            Barghouti yesterday.

            A bullet fired from a weapon equipped with a silencer
            hit a man standing next to the West Bank Fatah leader
            during the course of a demonstration march,
            Palestinians sources said.

            The march was held on the outskirts of Ramallah.

            The man died of his wound, according to a report on
            Army Radio this morning.

            The IDF Spokesman said in response that no live
            ammunition was fired in the Ramallah vicinity yesterday
            they had no knowledge of the incident.

            Barghouti was not seen in areas watched by the IDF,
            according to the spokesman,

            The Fatah leadership is threatening to escalate the
            intifada, saying any and all means were valid in attacks
            against Israeli residents of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza
            Strip.

            The Fatah is calling for a Ôday of rageÕ tomorrow.

            The IDF has begun relaxing the blockade imposed on
            4 Palestinian cities but maintained a tight grip on
            Ramallah and the surrounding area after capturing three
            members of a terror cell who had planned a car bomb
            attack inside Israel.

            To read more about the ongoing developments in the
            territories, click here, and here.

            (Margot Dudkevitch contributed to this report)




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:42 EST 2001
Article: 259657 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEE472.84095137@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: United Methodist News Service : A Nation Under Siege
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 184
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:24:34 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984540191 208.63.207.228 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:23:11 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:23:11 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175986 soc.culture.israel:329551 soc.culture.usa:607967 soc.culture.canada:259657 soc.culture.british:555695

The United Methodist Church has made strong statements against Israeli
occupation.  One of their articles appeared today in an
inter-denominational
news service that a lot of conservative and fundamentalist churches
receive!
It concludes:  "The closure of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is a
crime
that must be stopped."!!
(poster's remark, RLA)
         C U R R E N T   F E A T U R E   S T O R Y
              by the Editors of ReligionToday

 March 13, 2001


 A Nation Under Siege

    A special Religion Today commentary from the United Methodist News
Service.

    Ten Palestinian men were standing by the wall at the
 Israeli checkpoint north of Bethlehem. I couldn't see
 their faces because the Israeli soldiers made them stand
 facing the wall with their arms above their heads. The
 fault of these men, who ranged in age from 25 to 35, was
 that they had sneaked out of Bethlehem to go to Jerusalem
 five miles away to find a day's work. However, they were
 caught before they could sneak back to their homes in
 Bethlehem.

    When my turn at the checkpoint came, I showed my U.S.
 passport. The soldier smiled at me and wished me a nice
 day. I passed through the checkpoint without humiliation,
 but that Sunday evening I kept wondering what happened to
 the 10 Palestinian men. How long did they have to stand
 out in the street with their arms over their heads on
 this cold February night?

    They were definitely luckier than the two Palestinian
 construction workers who were killed by settlers on their
 way to work in an Israeli settlement near Bethlehem, and
 perhaps more fortunate than those caught by Israeli
 soldiers trying to sneak in through the fields and
 consequently brutally beaten up. Some, instead of getting
 home that evening, had to stay that night in a hospital
 treating their wounds.

    These heartbreaking scenes could be witnessed on the
 outskirts of every Palestinian city and village. All major
 Palestinian cities and towns have been under a stricter
 siege for the last four months, since the latest wave of
 violence began. Approximately 3 million people are trapped
 in their cities and villages. They are not allowed to
 travel to Israel, and frequently they are not allowed to
 travel to other Palestinian cities. In some cases, such as
 in Hebron and in Beit Jala, Palestinians cannot even
 travel by car from one neighborhood to another within the
 same city.

    One must ask the question: Is the siege a security
 measure or is it a crime against a whole population?

    Israelis claim that the closures are necessary to stop
 Palestinian terrorism. In reality, the closures increase
 hate, bitterness and mistrust, which lead to increased
 acts of violence and revenge that snuff out the lives of
 many innocent Israelis and Palestinians.

    Over and over again, it has been proven that the siege
 is a collective punishment imposed largely upon a
 Palestinian population that is not engaged in acts of
 revenge and violence against Israelis. The few
 Palestinians who plan violence against Israel know how to
 avoid checkpoints and army camps, and they enter the
 heart of Israeli cities with unusual skill and ease.
 Closures do not stop terrorists; they only stop
 hard-working Palestinians from getting to their jobs and
 fields.

    The siege is having a devastating effect on every
 aspect of Palestinian life. Take, for example, what is
 happening in the city of Hebron. Because of the presence
 of 100 Jewish families there, all 40,000 Palestinian
 inhabitants of the city are under strict curfew. This
 means that no Palestinian vehicle can go in or out of the
 city during the curfew, not even ambulances that may need
 to transport critically ill or severely injured
 Palestinians.

    A case in point is Sawsan Ahmad Jaber, a Palestinian
 woman who was in a coma. Her mother could not find an
 ambulance to take her to the hospital, so Jaber was
 placed in a garbage truck and driven over rough roads for
 hours before reaching the hospital. In normal
 circumstances, the drive to the hospital would have taken
 five minutes. Jaber received the needed treatment, but
 another citizen of Hebron was not as fortunate. Ahmed Abd
 Alkhader Sbitani, who found an ambulance to take him to
 the hospital, died because Israeli soldiers refused to let
 the vehicle pass through the checkpoint.

    The closures are slowly strangling all aspects of
 Palestinian life: economic, social, educational and even
 religious.

    As pastor of a church in Jerusalem, I can see how the
 closures stand in the way of freedom of religion.
 Palestinian Christians who wish to worship in Jerusalem
 cannot cross Israeli checkpoints to get to their churches.
 The Arabic Sunday night service at our church died out
 because Palestinian Christians couldn't come from
 Bethlehem or Ramallah to attend it. Only a small fraction
 of Muslims from the occupied territories who attempt to
 worship at Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem make it through
 Israeli checkpoints. In protest, many conduct worship
 services near the checkpoints.

    A serious casualty of the siege is the education of
 Palestinians on all levels and especially that of
 schoolchildren. Kawthar Salam, a reporter from Hebron,
 reports: "As of today, 41 schools are closed; three of
 these schools have been turned into military bases.
 Israeli soldiers use the schools to fire live ammunition,
 plastic bullets and tear-gas canisters at Palestinian
 stone throwers. This means that 14,000 Palestinian
 students are denied an education. Now they stay in homes
 that are much like prison cells. These children are being
 abused. But they are getting a different kind of
 education; the Israelis are teaching them hate and
 violence. This is not good for our children, and it is
 not good for the future of our coexistence in this land."

    At Bethlehem Bible College, where I serve as dean of
 students, we often suspend or cancel evening classes
 because teachers and students cannot make it through the
 checkpoints.

    The true purpose of the closure is to break the will of
 the Palestinian people and to bring their leadership to
 its knees. In this way, the Israelis aim to force the
 Palestinians to make major concessions in ongoing peace
 negotiations. A whole nation is severely punished and
 bruised in order to accommodate the expansionistic
 passions of another nation.

    The closure of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip is a
 crime that must be stopped. Peace and reconciliation
 between Israelis and Palestinians cannot be realized as
 long as one side of the divide functions as the jailer of
 the other side. Men and women who yearn for peace and
 justice in this land must act to stop the closure of the
 Palestinian territories and pray for an end to this evil
 occupation.

 A United Methodist News Service Commentary By the Rev.
 Alex Awad. Rev. Awad and his wife, Brenda, are
 missionaries with the United Methodist Board of Global
 Ministries, serving at Bethlehem Bible College and East
 Jerusalem Baptist Church. After six years of repeated
 applications to the Israeli government, Awad, a
 Palestinian American, received an official visa for his
 missionary work in 1995. Commentaries provided by United
 Methodist News Service do not necessarily represent the
 opinions or policies of UMNS or the United Methodist
 Church. http://umns.umc.org


 To view this story on-line, go to:
 http://news.crosswalk.com/religion/item/0,1875,332478,00.htm

-----------

Get all the latest news from our redesigned News Channel:
< http://news.crosswalk.com >.

-----------
News from ReligionToday is Copyrighted by Crosswalk.com.
Content may be reproduced provided proper credit is
given to religiontoday.crosswalk.com.  Please go to
http://www.crosswalk.com/info/copyright to be sure you
meet all legal requirements.





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:42 EST 2001
Article: 259660 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEE9E6.668D7771@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Ramallah = Warsaw Ghetto
References: <3AAD93E3.67ABFE85@bellsouth.net> <98kc18$2c75p$1@ID-66657.news.dfncis.de>  <3AAEB662.EE8A3491@bellsouth.net> <3sBr6.118$%o5.10848@news.shore.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 21
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:47:50 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984541548 208.63.207.228 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:45:48 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:45:48 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:175994 soc.culture.israel:329556 soc.culture.palestine:113690 soc.culture.usa:607972 soc.culture.canada:259660

I am not a redneck although my neck is red, and I do live in the South.
Weather is fine here, today was sunny and about 70.  You demonstrate
the most unbridled arrogance I have seen lately.  Scary actually.
RLA

medved@shore.net wrote:

> In talk.politics.mideast Roger Alexander  wrote:
> > Well, that's mighty God damned White of you
> > Massa Medved.  Mighty White.
> > Might I just remind you that these are Palestinians
> > in Palestine?  That you have no right to be there and further no
> > right whatever to tell them what they can and cannot do
> > Your arrogance is beyond belief.
>
> The arrogance that is beyond belief is of you, a southern US redneck,
> who has never in his life met an Israeli or a Palestinian, has only
> seen the area in pictures, and relies for his "information" solely on
> biased sources, thinking that you understand the situation in the area
> at all. Crawl back under that rock, you anti-semitic slime.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:42 EST 2001
Article: 259680 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAF8093.FCE907A4@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israeli army accused of using nail bombs
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 42
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:30:44 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984580115 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:28:35 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:28:35 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176015 soc.culture.israel:329607 soc.culture.usa:608055 soc.culture.canada:259680 soc.culture.british:555727


http://www.iol.co.za/html/frame_news.php?click_id=79&art_id=qw984460981635B253

Israeli army accused of using nail bombs

The Independent | March 13, 2001

Gaza City - The Palestinian security chief for the Gaza Strip,
Abdelrazek al-Majaida, accused the Israeli army on Monday of
using new nail bombs "which cut human flesh to shreds".

"After autopsies were carried out on Palestinians killed by the
Israeli army, it was revealed (the army) used bombs filled with
steel nails which easily pierce human flesh and tear it to shreds
on the way out," General Maijada said in a statement.

An Israeli military spokesperson said that the army has "adapted
its weapons to existing threats and to the security situation in the
field," but did not confirm the accusations.

Majaida said that "Ziad Ayyad, who was killed by the Israeli
army Saturday at the Karni crossing point, and Mustafa
al-Ramlawi, killed on March 2 also in the Gaza Strip, were the
victims of such bombs".

On Monday, the number of people killed since the intifada, or
Palestinian uprising, erupted on September 28 rose to 436: 357
Palestinians, one German, 13 Israeli Arabs and 65 other Israelis.
- Sapa-AFP 

=================================
I suppose the stalwart defenders of Israel's defensive tactics will
tell us that this is a necessary defensive tactic.
Or will they, as usual when some new nausea appears,
just keep quiet?  We'll see.
Can anyone doubt:

ISRAEL IS A HORRIBLE COUNTRY AND ITS PEOPLE
ARE HORRIBLE TOO!

RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:43 EST 2001
Article: 259681 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAF81E8.5F0F8AA9@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Ramallah = Warsaw Ghetto
References: <3AAD93E3.67ABFE85@bellsouth.net> <98kc18$2c75p$1@ID-66657.news.dfncis.de>  <3AAEB662.EE8A3491@bellsouth.net> <3sBr6.118$%o5.10848@news.shore.net> <3AAEE9E6.668D7771@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 25
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:36:24 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984580455 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:34:15 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:34:15 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176016 soc.culture.israel:329608 soc.culture.palestine:113708 soc.culture.usa:608056 soc.culture.canada:259681



medved@shore.net wrote:

> In talk.politics.mideast Roger Alexander  wrote:
> > I am not a redneck although my neck is red, and I do live in the South.
> > Weather is fine here, today was sunny and about 70.  You demonstrate
> > the most unbridled arrogance I have seen lately.  Scary actually.
>
> Yes, slimy, talk about the weather. Skip the part of not having
> ever talked to an Israeli or a Palestinian. Don't mention the fact
> that you have never visited even close to the area in question.
> You're not even good as an anti-semite - too transparent.

I am not rich, so visiting Palestine is out of the question.  But so far
as knowing what is going on, I think I do.  Had you any question
about my facts, you would voice them.  I note that you tried for
a long time to maintain that the US only gives Israel $3 billion a year,
when no informed person agrees with that figure, and the most
conservative say $5 or $6 billion.
Your Zionist arrogance came through when you told the Palestinians
through this NG that they could walk out of Ramallah, but not
to try to get rid of the trenches.  Nauseous.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:43 EST 2001
Article: 259683 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAF840E.988CC958@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Ramallah = Warsaw Ghetto
References: <3AAD93E3.67ABFE85@bellsouth.net>  <3AAEB662.EE8A3491@bellsouth.net> <3sBr6.118$%o5.10848@news.shore.net> <98mqdh$cke$1@news.tht.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 52
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:45:34 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984581051 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:44:11 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:44:11 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176017 soc.culture.israel:329609 soc.culture.palestine:113709 soc.culture.usa:608057 soc.culture.canada:259683



"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3sBr6.118$%o5.10848@news.shore.net>,   wrote:
>
> >The arrogance that is beyond belief is of you, a southern US redneck,
> >who has never in his life met an Israeli or a Palestinian, has only
> >seen the area in pictures, and relies for his "information" solely on
> >biased sources, thinking that you understand the situation in the area
> >at all. Crawl back under that rock, you anti-semitic slime.
>
> Mr. Alexander doesn't like Jews. The strife in the Middle East has
> provided him with a handy platform from which to throw his spittle.
>

The low tone of this remark is like much of what Mr. McVay does,
personal attack coupled with unfounded accusation.  I like people
for who they are not what group they belong to.  That is true for
Catholics, Jews and Muslims.  I have practiced with Catholics and
Muslims.  I opposed the British violence against the Catholics
of northern Ireland, and pointed out that they would leave when
the cost of maintaining the terrible discrimination equalled the
profit to be made from the continuation.  My people, some of them
are English, none are Irish.  So I hope I won't be taken as prejudiced
against the British.  I opposed the other apartheid in South Africa,
where some of the Boers are descended from FRench Hugenot,
as are some of my people on both sides.  I hope no one will think
I am prejudiced against the French Hugenot.
The situation in Palestine today is extraordinarily awful.  Yet Mr.
McVay has never raised his voice against the killing, the destruction
of homes, orchards, and crops, the virtual imprisonment of the
Palestinian people in their towns, nor any of the other nausea
which Israel is committing on a continuous basis.  I suspect he cannot,
his livelihood depending on his support for the Holocaust Industry,
which in turn provides support for Israel.
RLA

>
> He defends and justifies violence by Arabs, and condemns Israeli
> violence. It seems clear that it is not the violence Mr. Alexander
> does not like, it is the Jews. His approach to a sad and complex
> situation is entirely one-sided...
>
> Just another two-bit bigot.
>
> --
> Breakthrough System Delivers Daily Cash!  Click Here To Learn More
>          http://www.ngtools.com/fmain.php?D=kmcvay&A=sig
>                   ..and receive a FREE report:
>        "How To Make A Comfortable Living On The Internet."



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:43 EST 2001
Article: 259685 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAF86B5.B4680699@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israel accused of polluting Gaza
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 57
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:56:53 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984581686 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:54:46 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:54:46 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176018 soc.culture.israel:329610 soc.culture.usa:608059 soc.culture.canada:259685 soc.culture.british:555729

Israel accused of polluting Gaza

              Concerns that groundwater could be contaminated
              By Frank Gardner in Gaza

              The Palestinian environment minister, Dr Yousif
              Abu-Safiya, has accused Israel of pumping waste water
              and sewage into Palestinian territory in the Gaza Strip.

              The minister said on Tuesday that Israel had pumped half a

              million cubic meters of waste water into a riverbed across

              its border over the last two weeks.

              After nearly six months of
              border closures and
              economic despair,
              Palestinians living in the
              Gaza Strip thought life could
              not get any worse - but it
              has.

              According Dr Yousif
              Abu-Safiya, Israel is
              pumping 30,000 cubic meters
              a day of waste water into
              Gaza Valley.

              This narrow dried up
              riverbed runs from Israel
              across the Gaza Strip and into the Mediterranean.

              Palestinian officials fear that the next time it rains,
the water
              will wash whatever is in the valley out into the sea.

              Harmful chemicals

              Dr Abu-Safiya says this would pollute the beaches and
              drive the fish further out to sea where Palestinian
              fisherman are unable to follow them because of Israel's
              blockade of the coast.

              But he said the biggest hazard was from harmful chemicals
              getting into the Gaza Strip's natural groundwater.

              He said the underground water was the main water source
              for 1.25 million Palestinians and if it became polluted,
it
              would be unfit for either human or agricultural use.

              The minister said this alleged pollution by Israel,
violated
              international agreements and could even threaten the
              environment of the Mediterranean.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:44 EST 2001
Article: 259687 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAF8807.CE0730AA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Palestinians Seek U.N. Security 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 60
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:02:31 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984582022 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:00:22 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:00:22 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176020 soc.culture.usa:608061 soc.culture.canada:259687 soc.culture.british:555730

MARCH 13, 01:39 EST


Palestinians Seek U.N. Security

By EDITH M. LEDERER
Associated Press Writer

UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The Palestinians sought an immediate Security
Council meeting in a fresh attempt to win approval for establishing a
U.N. force to protect Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The Palestinian U.N. envoy said in a letter Monday that Israel's
``bloody military campaign'' has gotten worse since December, when the
council defeated a resolution to authorize a U.N. observer force after
an intense U.S. campaign against it.
``The Palestinian people under Israeli occupation are now suffocated and
besieged,'' Nasser al-Kidwa said, citing new Israeli restrictions on the
movement of people and goods, including roadblocks, trenches and the
bulldozing of paved roads.
He urged the Security Council ``to consider the increasingly dangerous
situation on the ground ... with the aim of taking the necessary
measures, including the establishment of a United Nations observer
force.''
Israel opposes a U.N. force, arguing instead for continued direct
negotiations between the two sides to end the fighting that has killed
425 people since Sept. 28, including 349 Palestinians, 57 Israeli Jews
and 19 others.
Israel's mission to the United Nations said Monday the Palestinians had
started the violence and that to now ask for international intervention
was cynical and unacceptable.
Earlier Monday, Arab foreign ministers meeting in Cairo asked the
Security Council to review Israel's tightening blockade of Palestinian
territories and create an international force to protect the
Palestinians.
Bangladesh's U.N. Ambassador Anwarul Chowdhury presented al-Kidwa's
letter to the council Monday afternoon on behalf of the Non-Aligned
Movement of developing countries, which spearheaded the Palestinian's
unsuccessful campaign three months ago for a U.N. force.
``The council listened very attentively, but there was no decision
taken,'' Ukraine's deputy ambassador Valeri Kuchynski said.
The United States mounted a campaign to block the original Palestinian
proposal because Israel objected to it.
Despite a personal appeal from Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, the
Palestinians failed to get the necessary nine ``yes'' votes for a U.N.
force in the 15-member council on Dec. 18.
Since then, the makeup of the Security Council has changed, with five
new non-permanent members.
China's deputy U.N. ambassador Shen Guofang, whose country backs the
Palestinians, said after Monday's council meeting that ``the situation
is really ... deteriorating, and we hope that the council would discuss
the issue ... and hopefully we can take some measures.''

===========================================

Let us all hope that the Security Council puts a stop to the Israeli
strangulation
of the Palestinians.  Their plight is terrible.

RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:44 EST 2001
Article: 259688 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAF88F3.FD08F93@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Nation Under Siege 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 39
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:06:28 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984582259 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:04:19 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:04:19 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176021 soc.culture.israel:329612 soc.culture.usa:608062 soc.culture.canada:259688 soc.culture.british:555731

The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and
Democracy (MIFTAH)

Nation Under Siege

Ariel Sharon’s “100-day plan,” during which a total Israeli military
siege is imposed across the Palestinian territories, is nothing short of
collective imprisonment; the crime: being a Palestinian.
Drafted by Lt. General Shaul Mofaz, and approved by Israel’s newly
elected unity government, the plan (implemented on Sunday, March 12th,
2001) is threefold. First, it aims to dichotomize the Palestinian
territories into 60 units, each ‘guarded’ by Israeli army posts and
surrounded by trenches, leaving thousands of Palestinian towns and
villages in complete isolation from each other, and, indeed, from the
rest of the world. Second, the residents of the besieged towns and
villages will be ‘monitored’, and their behavior evaluated against
Israel’s “security requirements.” And third, should there be any
indication of a “threatening activity,” (as defined by Israel itself)
Israeli forces reserve the “right” to conduct missions inside Areas A
(under full Palestinian control). Israel’s multiple siege policy is
posing serious and irreparable disruptions to the economic, political,
and social life of the Palestinians. 274 schools have been completely
shut off, Palestinian universities are not operating, hundreds of towns
and villages are suffering from serious shortages in food and medicine,
Palestinian government institutions have been paralyzed, and the daily
movement of Palestinians has been restricted to the boundaries of
isolated ‘Bantustans’. The Sharon-Mofaz strategy has pushed the limits
of Israeli oppression up to a level where an entire nation is sentenced
to a slow and painful death; rising poverty, rising unemployment,
deprivation of medical care, food and water shortages, lack of
education, and a complete strangulation of political and social life.
The Palestinian people’s aspirations for development, prosperity, and
peace have (for the time being) been reduced to a modest, yet desperate,
wish: to get out of prison.

For further information, please contact: Public Information Department
MIFTAH Tel: 00972-2-585 1842 WWW.MIFTAH.ORG




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:45 EST 2001
Article: 259756 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB01487.5924F531@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Nation Under Siege
References: <3AAF88F3.FD08F93@bellsouth.net> <3aaf98af.7451762@news.gate-way.net> <3aaf99e6.2679741@news.rcn.com> <3aafcbd1.20543910@news.gate-way.net> <3aafd092.16678763@news.rcn.com> <3aafffe4.10741105@news.gate-way.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 34
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:01:59 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news2.atl 984617995 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:59:55 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:59:55 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176082 soc.culture.israel:329725 soc.culture.usa:608294 soc.culture.canada:259756 soc.culture.british:555827



"E. Barry Bruyea" wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:13:44 GMT, davic@erols.com (David Goldman)
> wrote:
>
> >>Crawl back in your hole; at least Israel has a freely elected
> >>government and not an appointed warlord.
> >
> >What does "at least" mean?? South Africa also had a freely elected
> >Afrikaaner government. So do many other countries. Does that make them
> >good governments? Besides, elections aren't everything. The Zionist
> >state is run by a junta of military personnel, except for Pretty Boy
> >Shimmy Peres, of course.
>
> I realize you have to think that, even if it's a false premise,
> otherwise you couldn't justify the propaganda.

why shouldn't he think it.  It's true, isn't it?  Isn't it true in fact
that
Israel is run by one or both of two Ashkenazi branches, and that their
policies differ only at the margin, the central theme of both
of them being the completion of the taking of Eretz Yisroel,
and the expulsion of the Palestinians?  While I realize that
dichotomies are often false, don't you think that Israel can either be
described
as a country in which the mass of people approve this mad aggression,
and they are thus responsible personally as war criminals,
or that the mass of Israelis are more or less sheep, so that the
leadership alone is responsible for the crimes, so that the
mass of Israelis are either criminals or dolts.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:45 EST 2001
Article: 259757 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB0155A.3D6A2048@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Nation Under Siege
References: <3AAF88F3.FD08F93@bellsouth.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 20
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:05:31 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news2.atl 984618196 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:03:16 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:03:16 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176083 soc.culture.israel:329727 soc.culture.usa:608296 soc.culture.canada:259757 soc.culture.british:555828



Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and
> > Democracy (MIFTAH)
>
> Stop the violence and the siege will end.
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---

You know, for a bright individual, you are without a conscience.
You know why there is violence, and you know that if the
Palestinians stop protesting, Israel will merely proceed onward with
its plans to complete the Eretz Yisroel project.
You truly are sucks.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:45 EST 2001
Article: 259758 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB015D8.B790FA6A@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Nation Under Siege
References: <3AAF88F3.FD08F93@bellsouth.net>  <3AAFF79C.5D094653@erols.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 30
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:07:36 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news2.atl 984618321 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:05:21 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:05:21 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176084 soc.culture.israel:329728 soc.culture.usa:608298 soc.culture.canada:259758 soc.culture.british:555830



Omri Schwarz wrote:

> Howard Aubrey  writes:
>
> > Omri Schwarz wrote:
> >
> > > Roger Alexander  writes:
> > >
> > > > The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and
> > > > Democracy (MIFTAH)
> > >
> > > Stop the violence and the siege will end.
> >
> > Withdraw to the legal borders and the violence will end.
>
> Only as part of a FINAL peace treaty.
>
> --
> Omri Schwarz ---
>

More deception.  You know that Israel has no intention of making peace
which will include withdrawal to the Green Line.  Indeed, had Israel
ever made this offer to the Palestinians it would likely have resulted
in peace.
RLA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:46 EST 2001
Article: 259759 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB01610.7E22F39D@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Nation Under Siege
References: <3AAF88F3.FD08F93@bellsouth.net>  <3AAFF79C.5D094653@erols.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 28
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:08:32 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news2.atl 984618376 208.63.207.228 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:06:16 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:06:16 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176085 soc.culture.israel:329729 soc.culture.usa:608299 soc.culture.canada:259759 soc.culture.british:555831

It's working on that, we will agree.
RLA

David Lee Makowsky wrote:

> In article <3AAFF79C.5D094653@erols.com>,
> Howard Aubrey   wrote:
>
> # Omri Schwarz wrote:
>
> # > Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> # > > The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and
> # > > Democracy (MIFTAH)
>
> # > Stop the violence and the siege will end.
>
> # Withdraw to the legal borders and the violence will end.
>
> What Howard does not realize in his attempt to bash Israel (in Giwer
> like fashion I might add) is that for Israel to get to the legal
> mandatory borders it would have to _EXPAND_!!!
> --
>         There are three types of people in the world.  Those that are good at
> math and those that are not.
>
> dlm@mcs.net



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:46 EST 2001
Article: 259760 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB01CEF.A4FFEFF@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Two dead as Israeli blockade 'eased'
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 108
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:37:52 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.127
X-Trace: news1.atl 984620137 66.20.149.127 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:35:37 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:35:37 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176091 soc.culture.israel:329739 soc.culture.usa:608313 soc.culture.canada:259760 soc.culture.british:555834

Two dead as Israeli blockade 'eased'

              Palestinians say the blockade has only eased slightly
              A Palestinian youth has been shot dead in continuing
              clashes with Israeli troops in the Gaza Strip.

              The incident happened after Israel's announcement that its

              blockade of some Palestinian towns was being eased.

              Hospital officials said Ahmed Banar, aged 19, died of
              gunshot wounds.

              In a separate incident, a Palestinian woman reportedly
died
              on her way to hospital after Israeli troops refused to let
her
              car though a road block near the West Bank town of Jenin.

              Amina Nassir, a diabetes sufferer, died while making a
              detour on foot to reach the hospital, her son was quoted
as
              saying.

              More than 400 people, mostly Palestinians, have been
              killed since a Palestinian uprising began in late
September.

              A Palestinian man died on Tuesday in similar
              circumstances when he was stopped at an Israeli roadblock
              outside Nablus after suffering a stroke.

              Criticism of blockade

              The Israeli army on Tuesday began easing a blockade on
              some West Bank towns, but Jenin is not one of them.

              The move was in response to
              criticism of Israel from the
              international community. A
              European Union delegation
              appealed directly to Israeli
              Prime Minister Ariel Sharon
              to relax the blockade.

              After meeting the Israeli
              leader, EU External Affairs
              Minister Chris Patten said all
              the measures imposed on the
              West Bank and Gaza Strip
              could not be justified on
              security grounds.

              Washington, too, has restated its opposition to the
sealing
              off of the territories, which has left many Palestinians
              unable to get to their jobs and sparked warnings of an
              impending humanitarian crisis.

              The Israelis maintain the blockade is designed to prevent
              attacks by Palestinian militants.

              'Reduced violence'

              The Israeli authorities say the recent clampdown was
              imposed because suspected Palestinian militants in the
              West Bank town of Ramallah were planning to bomb
              nearby Jerusalem.

              In the past week Ramallah - a
              town of more than 50,000
              people and the Palestinians'
              political and commercial
              centre in the West Bank - as
              well as Jenin and Jericho
              have been sealed off.

              Israel says controls have
              now been relaxed on
              Ramallah and four other
              towns: Tulkarm, Qalqilya,
              Bethlehem and Hebron.

              An Israeli army spokesman said there had been a "relative
              reduction in violence", but warned: "If terrorism resumes,

              we will take the necessary measures."

              Residents of the towns, however, reported only a slight
              easing of restrictions on Tuesday.

              The blockade has cost the Palestinian economy millions of
              dollars, unemployment has soared and hundreds of
              thousands of people are now reliant on food aid to
survive.

              Arab foreign ministers have agreed to do more to relieve
              the situation, following Palestinian criticism that only
$8m
              of a promised $1bn in aid had reached those in need.

===================================

Apparently the 'easing' is no more than a publicity ploy.
Israel can say any damned thing and have the press
in the US slavishly follow.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:46 EST 2001
Article: 259763 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB02406.3A68F6EC@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: VAMPIRE KILLERS By Israel Shamir
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 184
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 20:08:06 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.127
X-Trace: news1.atl 984621968 66.20.149.127 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:06:08 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:06:08 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176093 soc.culture.israel:329746 soc.culture.usa:608319 soc.culture.canada:259763 soc.culture.british:555836

VAMPIRE KILLERS

By Israel Shamir



Folk stories about vampires provide readers with various remedies to the
calamity of a ghoulish attack. A fistful of graveyard dirt is favoured,
garlic is beneficial, and the cross is most efficient. But these
remedies don’t always work. In Roman Polansky’s hilarious horror comedy,
The Fearless Vampire Killers, the hero tries to scare off a Jewish
vampire by a sign of the cross. The Jew smiles at him with a kind
understanding smile, straight from Fiddler on the Roof, and bares his
fangs. The cross does not ward him off.  Polansky’s work comes to mind
as I follow the new wave of Holocaust controversies.

The ‘revisionist historians’, who are considered by their adversaries to
be  ‘Holocaust deniers’, are currently meeting in Beirut to compare
their notes on Nazi genocide. The American Jewish establishment,
including the Zionist Organization of America and the Anti-Defamation
League, has demanded a ban on the conference. The ZOA is not against
revisionism as such.  This organization pioneered the art of denying
history and published, at the expense of American taxpayer, a booklet
called ‘Deir Yassin: History of a Lie’.

Deir Yassin was a peaceful village the Jewish terrorist groups Etzel and
Lehi attacked on the 9th of April 1948, and massacred its men, women and
children. I do not want to repeat the gory tale of sliced off ears,
gutted bellies, raped women, torched men, bodies dumped in stone
quarries or the triumphal parade of the murderers. Existentially, all
massacres are similar, from Babi Yar to Chain Gang to Deir Yassin.

ZOA revisionists have utilized all the methods of their adversaries, the
‘deniers’: they discount the eye-witness accounts of the survivors, the
Red Cross, the British police, Jewish scouts and other Jewish observers,
who were present at the scene of massacre. They discount even Ben
Gurion’s apology, since after all, the commanders of these gangs became
in their turn prime ministers of the Jewish state. For ZOA, only the
testimony of the murderers has any validity. That is, if the murderers
are Jews.

If the Jews are the victims, these same American Zionist organizations
spare no effort in challenging revisionism. This morally dubious
position was no doubt of great comfort to those who gathered in Beirut.
By their flawed logic, if the Israelis are telling a tall tale about
what happened in 1948, perhaps the Jewish memories of the Holocaust are
also flawed.  It is misplaced energy. Sure, they scored a few hits, and
the tales of soap manufactured from human fat or Wiesel’s fiery furnaces
were laid to rest. But these Revisionists also question the actual
number of Jewish victims. If only a thousand Jews or Gypsies were
murdered by the Nazis, it was a thousand too many. It is hardly an
important issue, as the very definition of victim is based on
interpretation.

A good example of “victim definition” was provided in last weekend’s
Haaretz. When the Gulf war ended in 1991, there was one reported Israeli
victim of the war. Today, there are officially one hundred Israelis who
are recognized as victims of the Gulf war, and their dependents receive
a pension at Iraqi expense. Some of the victims died of stress, some
could not remove their gas masks and suffocated. The Haaretz article
asserted that many more claims were declined by the Israeli authorities.
That is why Michael Elkins, the ex-BBC Jerusalem correspondent and an
Israeli citizen is correct in arguing that the number of victims,
whether there were six or three million dead is not an issue.

The ‘revisionists’ risked their lives and fortunes trying to undermine
what they call ‘the Myth of the Holocaust’. One can understand their
interest. Nowadays, one may openly doubt the Immaculate Conception or
(maybe) challenge the founding myths of Israel.  Yet the cult of the
Holocaust retains a unique, court-enforced prohibition against any
investigation that might cast a doubt on its sacred dogma.  Dogmas have
a way of attracting critical minds. Still, behind this red muleta, the
charging bull’s horns meet thin air. The arguments on gas chambers and
soap production could be very interesting, but they are quite
irrelevant. Where then is the matador?

A courageous step was taken by Dr Norman Finkelstein in his best-selling
expose “The Holocaust Industry”. There is, however, an important
distinction between Dr Finkelstein and the ‘revisionist historians’
gathered in Beirut. Dr Finkelstein, a son of holocaust survivors, stayed
away from the possibly illegal statistical controversy and concentrated
on the ideological construct of the Holocaust cult.

A fat lot of good it did him. A Jewish organization called ‘Lawyers
without Borders’ has already sued him in France. These lawyers were at
perfect peace, when the Israeli legal machine pronounced a six months
probationary sentence on a Jewish murderer of a Gentile child. They did
not move a finger when a 15-year-old girl Suad was placed in solitary
confinement, refused legal aid and subjected to mental torture. They are
visibly absent from Israeli military courts where a single Jewish
officer can mete out long imprisonment sentence to a Gentile civilian
based on undisclosed evidence. Apparently, these lawyers are aware of
certain borders.

Finkelstein set out to explore the secret of our discrete Jewish charm,
a charm that opens American hearts and the coffers of Swiss bankers. His
conclusion is that we do it by appealing to European and American guilt
feelings. “The Holocaust cult[1] has proven to be an indispensable
ideological weapon. Through its deployment, one of the world’s most
formidable military powers, with a horrendous human rights record, has
cast itself as a victim state, and the most successful ethnic group in
the US has acquired victim status”.  Finkelstein carries out a brilliant
analysis of the Holocaust cult, and comes to a startling discovery: it
is but a shabby construct of a few clichés stitched together by the
sorrowful voice of Elie Wiesel in a limo.

Finkelstein is not aware of the magnitude of his discovery, as he still
believes that the Holocaust cult is a great concept, second only to the
invention of the wheel. It solved the eternal problem of the rich and
influential, warding off the envy and hate of the poor and exploited. It
allowed Mark Rich and other swindlers to cheat and steal, it allowed the
Israeli army to murder children and starve women with impunity. His
opinion is shared by many Israelis. Ari Shavit, a well-known Haaretz
writer, expressed it best in 1996, when the Israeli Army killed over a
hundred civilian refugees in Kana, Lebanon: “We may murder with
impunity, because the Holocaust museum is on our side”. Boaz Evron, Tom
Segev and other Israeli writers have articulated the same notion.

One can sum up the thesis of Dr Finkelstein as follows. The Jews
succeeded to square the circle, and solved the problem that befuddled
aristocracy and the run of the mill millionaires. Namely, they disarmed
their opponents by appealing to their compassion and guilt feeling.

I admire Dr Finkelstein for his continued belief in the good heart of
his fellow Man. I trust he also believes in fairies.  In my own
estimate, compassion and guilt feelings can maybe get you a free bowl of
soup. Not uncounted billions of dollars. Dr Finkelstein is not blind. He
noticed that the Gypsies, another victim of the Nazis, received next to
nothing from a ‘compassionate’ Germany. The capacity of Americans to
feel collective guilt towards their Vietnamese victims (5 million
killed, one million widows, Coventry-style destruction laced with Agent
Orange) was recently expressed by Defence Secretary William Cohen:
‘There is no place for apology (let alone compensation). A war is a
war’. Despite having all the facts at his disposal, Dr Finkelstein
grasps his cross and tries to frighten the vampire away.

What is the source of power that fuels the Holocaust Industry? This is
no idle or theoretical question. The making of yet another Palestinian
tragedy is now in high gear, with the slow strangulation of its cities.
Every day, a tree is uprooted, a house is demolished, a child is
murdered. In Jerusalem, the Jews celebrated Purim by a pogrom of
Gentiles, and it made page six in the local papers. In Hebron, the
Kahane boys celebrated Purim at the tomb of the mass murderer Goldstein.
This is no time to pussyfoot.

In The Sirens, Bloom expresses the feelings of his creator James Joyce
towards the bloody concept of Irish liberation by farting at the epitaph
of an Irish freedom fighter. My grandparents, my aunts and uncles died
in the WWII.  But I swear by their memory, if I thought that guilt
feelings over the Holocaust cult caused the death of a single
Palestinian child, I would turn the Holocaust memorial into a public
urinaire.

The shabbiness of the Holocaust cult and the ease of its victories in
sucking billions is solid proof of the real power behind this industry.
This power is obscure, unseen, ineffable, but quite real. It is not a
power derived from the Holocaust, but rather, the Holocaust cult is a
display of raw muscle by those who wield real power. That is why all
efforts of the revisionists are doomed. The people, who promote the
cult, could promote anything, as they dominate all public discourse. The
Holocaust cult is just a small manifestation of their abilities. This
power would just smile in the face of Dr Finkelstein’s revelations.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] Dr Finkelstein distinguishes between «holocaust”, the historical
event, and the Holocaust, the ideological construct. I took the liberty
to rename it “the Holocaust cult” in the interests of lucidity.



Israel Shamir is an Israeli writer and journalist. His articles The Rape
of Dulcinea, The Test Failed, Galilee Flowers could be found on many
Internet sites, www.thestruggle.org, www.antiwar, www.NileMedia etc. He
can be reached at shamiri_@netvision.net.il, or write P.O.B. 23714 Tel
Aviv 61236

You may freely publish the articles of Israel Shamir in the Web, or
distribute it by other means. The hardcopy publications should apply for
a permission from the author.




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:47 EST 2001
Article: 259784 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB04161.22BB723C@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Nation Under Siege
References: <3AAF88F3.FD08F93@bellsouth.net>  <3AAFF79C.5D094653@erols.com>  <3ab0099e.26373594@news.rcn.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 16
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 22:13:21 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.127
X-Trace: news2.atl 984629465 66.20.149.127 (Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:11:05 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:11:05 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176138 soc.culture.israel:329798 soc.culture.usa:608384 soc.culture.canada:259784 soc.culture.british:555859

The genocidal tendencies of the Zionists are patent.
RLA

meshehu wrote:

> In article <3ab0099e.26373594@news.rcn.com>, davic@erols.com (David
> Goldman) wrote:
>
> > Sorry, but withdrawal from occupied territory is a regular requirement
> > of international law, regardless of the prerequisites of the dying
> > Zionist state.......
>
> Oh look, another dipshit with latent genocidal tendencies pipes up.
>
> Lakek otanu Goldman.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:47 EST 2001
Article: 259822 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB0CBE5.42C69EC5@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Death fuels anger over Israeli siege 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 77
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:04:22 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.127
X-Trace: news1.atl 984664922 66.20.149.127 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:02:02 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:02:02 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176179 soc.culture.israel:329865 soc.culture.usa:608543 soc.culture.canada:259822 soc.culture.british:555909

Death fuels anger over Israeli siege

                                 By Phil Reeves in Jerusalem

                                 15 March 2001

                                 Israel's blockade of the occupied
territories claimed another life
                                 yesterday, adding momentum to a
Palestinian effort to attract world
                                 attention to the worsening siege
conditions under which they live.

                                 Palestinian medical officials said a
diabetic woman, Amira Nassir, died
                                 after she was stopped by Israeli
soldiers at a roadblock while travelling
                                 to a hospital in the West Bank town of
Jenin. The Israeli army said
                                 she was allowed through and soldiers
offered to call an ambulance, but
                                 it is sure to be claimed by the
Palestinians as another example of the
                                 abuses – ranging from deaths and
beatings to economic collapse –
                                 caused by an illegal Israeli policy of
collectively punishing civilians by
                                 placing them under siege.

                                 Palestinian human rights activists say
there have been 11 deaths
                                 caused by the Israeli army denying
Palestinians access to medical care
                                 and six cases of women giving birth at
checkpoints.

                                 In the past few weeks, the Israeli army
has extended the blockade – a
                                 move it says is needed to prevent
guerrilla attacks. At the same time,
                                 Israel has come under pressure from the
United States, the United
                                 Nations and the European Union to ease
the siege, not least because of
                                 concerns that it adds to Palestinian
militancy and perilously
                                 undermines the Palestinian Authority.

                                 The EU commissioner for external
affairs, Chris Patten, spelt this out
                                 during a visit this week to meet Yasser
Arafat and Israel's Prime
                                 Minister, Ariel Sharon. He was quoted
in Ha'aretz newspaper as
                                 saying: "What does wrecking the
Palestinian economy and increasing
                                 poverty have to do with security? And
if the Palestinian government
                                 collapses, who are you going to
negotiate with?"



                                    news | World  | Middle_East  | 2001-

======================================

There is to me a sense of unreality about this madness.  No other
country (save China) is allowed
to oppress others.  The US attacked Iraq, over oil, of course.  We
attacked Serbia twice.
There was nothing that Serbia did which was in the league of what Israel
does routinely.
Yet the United States Congress, almost to a man supports Israel.  This
is an outrage.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:47 EST 2001
Article: 259882 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB1708A.6C3BCD2B@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Two third of Jews support the idea of expelling Arabs
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 70
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:46:51 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news2.atl 984707066 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:44:26 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:44:26 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176238 soc.culture.israel:329962 soc.culture.usa:608709 soc.culture.canada:259882 soc.culture.british:556014

Two third of Jews support the idea of expelling Arabs

Jerusalem, AFP

About two third of the Jewish Israelis support the idea of expelling
Arabs
to other Arabic countries if Israel is not subjected to international
condemnation because of that.

The question was asked "Do you agree with deporting all the Arabs in the

West Bank and Gaza if Israel does not pay a diplomatic price for that?"
Of
the respondents, 65% said yes, 26% said no, and 9% did not tell their
opinions.

Fifty four percent of the respondents said that the Arabs will never
retire
>from the idea of destroying Israel, 34% said that Arabs wish to reach a
final settlement with Israel, and 12% did not say their opinions.

The survey was conducted for the Israeli daily Ma'ariv and the results
were
published in yesterday's edition. The survey included 500 Jews. One
million
Arab Israelis were not represented in the survey. The margin of error
was
4.5%.

Rahavam Ze'evi; Israeli parliament (Knesset) member and leader of the
Israeli Moledet party whose plank explicitly advocates expelling all
Arabs
>from their homeland; welcomed the news. He announced that "The Israelis
have
realized that it is impossible to live in a country with two
nationalities.
The solution for that is their separation, or deportation."

Israeli minister without portfolio, Michael Eitan, from the office of
the
Prime Minster, said that other polls in Israel showed that 79% of
Israelis
wanted peace with Arabs and that 65% of respondents supported Oslo in
the
other polls.

On the occasion of the new Jewish year, Ma'ariv asked Jewish Israelis
about
their opinions of the biggest success that Israel achieved. Heading the
list
was the 28% of the respondents who thought that it was the 1967 war; in
which Israel occupied the Palestinians. Peace with Egypt and peace with
Jordan were thought of as the biggest achievements by two groups, each
representing 17% of the Jewish Israelis. Destroying the Iraqi nuclear
reactor was number four on the list with 11% of respondents thinking of
it
as the biggest achievement.

Al Hayat,  www.alhayat-j.com   September 21, 1998

========================================

I wonder what the results would be now.  And to think that
posters here seriously put forth the notion that Israelis were
no longer Zionists.  Brigns to mind the old conundrum:
Q.  How does a leopard change his spots?
A. By moving from place to place.
RLA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:48 EST 2001
Article: 259885 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB173B2.2C51F029@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: WE DIDN'T SEE; WE DIDN'T KNOW Tanya Reinhart
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 120
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:00:18 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news2.atl 984707874 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:57:54 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:57:54 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176241 soc.culture.israel:329967 soc.culture.usa:608718 soc.culture.canada:259885 soc.culture.british:556019



          "But in Germany too, most of the
          Germans were not Nazis. The
          majority just chose not to know."
                      Prof. Tanya Reinhart
                      Tel Aviv University


           WE DIDN'T SEE; WE DIDN'T KNOW
                  Tanya Reinhart*

[Yediot Aharonot, 14 March, translated from original Hebrew]:
The Palestinian people have many symbols, and one of them is Bir Zeit
university near Ramallah - the secular intellectual center of the
society.

For years, Bir Zeit has also been a symbol of the spirit of coexistence
between the two peoples. Even during the darkest periods of the
occupation (when the university would be immediately closed by a
military order), they called for a solution based on recognizing the
rights of both peoples. Even when their position was far from being
popular in their community, and there were those who accused them
of collaboration, they called for cooperation with Israeli peace forces
which opposed the occupation. In the eighties, I acquired, like many
others, my political education in the way of civil and democratic
struggle from the young and idealistic lecturers of Bir Zeit.

There is no doubt that Bir Zeit had an important role in the triumph
of the spirit of compromise and reconciliation within the Palestinian
society, at the eve of Oslo, when the Palestinian people extended
their hand to peace with us, with hope and faith.

Last week, Bir Zeit too returned to the claws of the military
administration. Bulldozers ruined the only road which connects Ramallah
with Bir Zeit and some thirty other villages. From now on, nobody
enters and nobody leaves - no ambulances, no supply trucks, no students
and lecturers who live in Ramallah. Bir Zeit ghetto joined the Gaza
ghettoes, the prison camps of Jerico, Jenin and Tubas which are
surrounded by ditches and many other. This week the areas south and
west of Ramallah were also isolated, and ghetto Ramallah moved from
"breathing encirclement" to "choking encirclement".

In the new military language, the ghettoes are called "territorial
cells". The newspapers of last weekend expose the IDF's plans for
the near future: Since Oslo, "the IDF regarded the occupied territories
as if they were one territorial cell", and this placed some constraints
on the IDF and enabled a certain amount of freedom for the PA and
the Palestinian population. The new plan is a return to the concept
of the military administration during the pre-Oslo years: the occupied
territories will be divided into 64 isolated territorial cells, each
of which will be assigned a special military force, "and the local
commander will have freedom to use his discretion" as to when and
who to shoot. The IDF has completed already the division of Gaza into
territorial cells, "but so far there has only been isolation, and
not yet treatment inside the cells" (Alex Fishman, Yediot Ahronot,
March 9.01).

Now, after the forced restraint of the elections period is over, the
IDF and the political system are ready for the "treatment" phase.
And we're talking about a comprehensive "treatment", which includes
not only starvation, imprisonment and "local discretion" in shooting,
but also preplanned personal elimination of the Palestinian leadership
and destruction of the social infrastructure.

We, who grew up with the memory of the holocaust, have set it for
ourselves as the only standard of evil. Indeed, no crime equals and
compares to the systematic and preplanned elimination of six million
people. But it seems that what we have internalized of this memory
is that any evil whose extent is smaller is still within the "OK"
standards.

For five months, there has been a process of slow, but systematic
and preplanned, elimination of Palestinians in the occupied
territories. We won't find it in the statistics of the dead. Israel
couldn't get away with thousands of dead. So, soldiers who were
carefully trained for the job are conducting a manhunt - aiming at
the eyes or knees, in order to injure but not kill, in a daily quota
which doesn't distinguish between demonstrators and passersby.

At least 12,000 injured were reported so far, many of them blind,
crippled and maimed. Their fate is to die slowly, far away from the
cameras. Some because there are no hospitals to care for them, others
because they won't be able to survive, crippled, in the starvation
and infrastructure destruction which is inflicted on their people.
But our hands are clean - those who die because of their handicap
don't enter the statistics of evil.

There aren't six million Palestinians in the occupied territories,
and the ideology of evil is different as well. Blunt and direct Nazi
ideology is only found in the Messianic centers of the settlers in
the territories. The army and the government are just protecting the
living space of the settlers. And the rest are just deeply disappointed
with the Palestinians, who failed to grasp how profound our desire
for peace is.

But in Germany too, most of the Germans were not Nazis. The majority
just chose not to know.

     *Tanya Reinhart is a Professor at Tel
      Aviv Univesity and can be reached at
      Tanya@MiddleEast.Org

======================================

There was a time I thought the majority of Israelis really wanted
peace with the Palestinians (on really, really favorable terms, of
course,
that is in the blood), but I no longer think this.  I have come to
the reluctant conclusion that the ordinary Israeli considers him/her
self as so much better than Palestinians that the death or injury
of a Palestinian (or a hundred or ten thousand Palestinians)
is nothing to worry about.  In other words your typical Israeli
has the morals of a rat.  They are scum.  The only way to
deal with Israel is to use superior force, and given that the
US is in their pocket, this is impossible at present.  That means that
there is a lot of education of moral people in this country to do.
RLA




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:48 EST 2001
Article: 259889 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB17C90.1D1F29BD@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Sharon's National Unity Government: Shoring Up the "Iron Wall"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 315
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:38:08 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984710165 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:36:05 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:36:05 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176250 soc.culture.israel:329979 soc.culture.usa:608737 soc.culture.canada:259889 soc.culture.british:556027


MERIP Press Information Note 50

Sharon's National Unity Government: Shoring Up the "Iron Wall"

Jeff Halper

March 13, 2001

(Jeff Halper is coordinator of the Israeli Committee Against House
Demolitions, editor of News From Within and professor of anthropology at

Ben-Gurion University.)

Ariel Sharon's governing coalition, embracing both Shimon Peres and
hardline
rejectionists, exposes the contradictions in the conventional left-right

distinctions in Israeli politics. Over seven years after the Oslo
accords,
it is clear that Israeli leaders never envisioned a truly viable and
sovereign Palestinian state, only a "peace" that granted Palestinians a
limited independence within overall Israeli control. The three million
Palestinians who live in the Occupied Territories constitute the major
obstacle preventing Israel from the objective of continued control,
since
Israel can neither incorporate them as citizens nor rule them
indefinitely
under an increasingly repressive apartheid regime. The Oslo process,
capped
by the July 2000 Camp David summit and the Taba meetings in January,
offered
a form of occupation-by-consent. But when the occupation policies of
settlement, closure and military control did not break Palestinian
resistance and led instead to the second intifada, the broad moderate
left-center-right "consensus" in Israeli politics decided to reassert
more
direct authority.

Sharon's "national unity" government represents a closing of ranks
around
the rock-bottom refusal of Zionism and Israel to entertain the
possibility
of truly sharing this land with the Palestinians -- either in one state
or
in two. The role of the Sharon government is to generate such despair
among
the Palestinians that they will sue for surrender. It will strive to
dash
Palestinian hopes for a viable, sovereign state, to defeat the
Palestinians
once and for all. In this respect, "national unity" draws upon important

historical precedent.

DOCTRINE OF DESPAIR

In a famous article entitled "The Iron Wall," published in 1923, Ze'ev
Jabotinsky articulated a cardinal principle of the Zionist enterprise:
Zionism should endeavor to bring about a Jewish state in the whole land
of
Israel, regardless of the Arab response. Jabotinsky realized that
Palestinians were a national group with national aspirations, but was
willing to grant them only a kind of autonomy within a Jewish state
covering
the entire territory. He knew full well that this could not be
accomplished
without resistance. "Every indigenous people," Jabotinsky wrote, "will
resist alien settlers as long as they see any hope of ridding themselves
of
the danger of foreign settlement. This is how the Arabs will behave and
go
on behaving so long as they possess a gleam of hope that they can
prevent
'Palestine' from becoming the Land of Israel."

For Jabotinsky, the trick was to extinguish that "gleam of hope."
According
to his doctrine of the "iron wall," the Palestinians will agree to
limited
civil and national rights only after their resistance is broken. "The
sole
way to an agreement," wrote Jabotinsky, "is through the iron wall, that
is
to say, the establishment in Palestine of a force that will in no way be

influenced by Arab pressure...A voluntary agreement is unattainable...We

must either suspend our settlement efforts or continue them without
paying
attention to the mood of the natives. Settlement can thus develop under
the
protection of a force that is not dependent on the local population,
behind
an iron wall which they will be powerless to break down."

Though Jabotinsky is often dubbed an extremist figure, historian Avi
Shlaim
contends that his "iron wall" doctrine became central to Israel's
approach
to the Palestinians. Addressing the Jewish Agency Executive after the
outbreak of the Arab revolt in 1936, David Ben-Gurion, first prime
minister
of the state of Israel and grandfather of the modern Labor Party, said:
"A
comprehensive agreement is undoubtedly out of the question now. For only

after total despair on the part of the Arabs, despair that will come not

only from the failure of the disturbances and the attempt at rebellion,
but
also as a consequence of our growth in the country, may the Arabs
possibly
acquiesce to a Jewish Eretz Israel." Ben-Gurion not only agreed with
Jabotinsky, but argued that peace was only desirable if it advanced the
Zionist agenda: "It is not in order to establish peace in the country
that
we need an agreement...peace for us is a means. The end is the complete
and
full realization of Zionism. Only for that do we need an agreement."

THE IRON WALL COALITION

Applied to the current context, Shlaim's historical work suggests that
adherence to the iron wall approach might be a better way to categorize
political figures than support for or opposition to the Oslo accords.
Shlaim's analysis lumps what we might call the "Ben-Gurion" Laborites --

those Labor Party stalwarts, including Shimon Peres, who supported
participation in the Sharon government -- together with Likud, the
direct
descendant of Jabotinsky and Menachem Begin's Revisionists. What unites
them
is their common acceptance of the "iron wall" approach to the Arab world
--
and to Palestinians in particular. On the other side of the iron wall
are
the moderate "doves" of both Labor and Meretz, the more radical Jewish
left
and Palestinian citizens of Israel. Yitzhak Rabin and Peres have been
characterized in Israel as "yonetz," an ambivalent and confused mixture
of
"dove" and "hawk."

The broad middle-right coalition encompasses both Likud and Peres and
mainstream Labor, the latter epitomized by Defense Minister Binyamin Ben

Eliezer, another Laborite army general. "National unity" includes other
sectors of Israeli society as well: the Sephardi Shas party, other
orthodox
parties, the Russian immigrant parties and the far right, like Rehavam
Ze'evi's Moledet, which advocates "transferring" Palestinians out of the

Occupied Territories. Sharon's government can muster 73 votes out of the

Knesset's 120 -- more if we include some right-wing factions that did
not
join for various reasons.

The Sharon-Peres-Ben Eliezer bloc believes it is possible to build
Jabotinsky's "iron wall." Their reading of the political map leads them,
as
it did in 1993, to the conclusion that the Palestinians are defeated.
Israel
enjoys the almost unanimous support of the US Congress and media, as
well as
the Bush administration. US backing renders irrelevant the periodic
protests
of other international parties, including the UN and the European Union.

Dependency on the US and Europe on the part of Arab and Muslim
countries, as
well as considerable common interests with Israel, effectively nullify
them
as well. Israel exists in an absolutely protected bubble. The "national
unity" coalition considers that the Palestinian Authority (PA) has lost
the
confidence of the people and is on the verge of collapse. As in 1993,
the PA
will only be useful if it finally "settles" with Israel. Sharon's idea
of
"settling" does not include 88-96 percent of the West Bank, all of Gaza
and
pockets of East Jerusalem -- the ideas bandied about by Barak and
Clinton --
but rather the 42 percent of the West Bank currently classified as Areas
A
and B, the 60 percent of Gaza containing large Palestinian population
centers and none of East Jerusalem. So far the Palestinian street is the

only effective force for frustrating the "iron wall" approach -- and it
is
being ruthlessly suppressed.

A FUTURE OF "NATIONAL UNITY"

Since Israeli control of the Occupied Territories is virtually the only
issue upon which "national unity" can be based, it is not surprising
that
Sharon's "national unity" government has no political program other than
to
engineer the surrender of the Palestinians. As Doron Rosenblum, an
Israeli
commentator, put it: "We have never had a government for more
pessimistic
reasons than this one: its agenda is completely hidden and unknown...It
is
making no promises other than to 'bring back security'."

But the Sharon government will not be long-lived. The cabinet is
unwieldy,
consisting of eight parties and 26 ministers, and financial and other
domestic issues could cause its collapse in the months ahead. At any
rate,
general elections must be held by November 2003. With Sharon's election,
the
Knesset also abolished direct election of the prime minister. Israel
will
revert to the old system, whereby voters vote only for party lists, and
the
leader of the largest vote-getting party then forms the government. This

arrangement will restore the parliamentary dominance of two or three
large
party blocs (Labor, Likud and perhaps Shas), instead of the extreme
fragmentation of the the past two Knessets that undermined the stability
of
the Netanyahu and Barak governments. The Labor-left bloc has far fewer
potential partners than the Likud-Shas bloc, and will find it difficult
to
form a government in future elections. But since Labor garners more
votes
than Likud, both Labor and Sharon see the abolition of direct election
as a
way of blocking Netanyahu's return to power.

Two conclusions may be drawn from all this. First, the vast majority of
parties in the Knesset are committed to the "iron wall" approach, making

further repression of the Palestinians more likely. Last week, the
Israel
Defense Forces isolated Ramallah, Birzeit University and some 33
villages,
digging deep trenches and stationing tanks in the roads, and the
Jerusalem
municipality has announced it will begin demolishing dozens more
Palestinian
homes. Second, even if the Labor Party had a plan beyond the "iron
wall," it
probably could not form a government that could transcend that policy in

practice. We are likely to see national unity governments in Israel --
formal or de facto -- for some time to come. A just and lasting peace
will
not emerge from within Israel; only international pressure can save the
Palestinians from being crushed by the iron wall.

(When quoting from this PIN, please cite MERIP Press Information Note
50,
"Sharon's National Unity Government: Shoring Up the 'Iron Wall,'" by
Jeff
Halper, March 13, 2001. He can be reached at icahd@zahav.net.il.)

-----

For analysis of the factors contributing to Sharon's election, see:

MERIP Press Information Note 46: Israel Elects Sharon: Contradictions of
a
Creeping Apartheid:
http://www.merip.org/pins/pin46.html

MERIP Press Information Note 41: Beyond the Bibi Bill: Israel's
Electoral
System and the Intifada:
http://www.merip.org/pins/pin41.html

For analysis of the occupation policies behind the current uprising, see

Jeff Halper's "The 94 Percent Solution: A Matrix of Control," in Middle
East
Report 216 (Fall 2000). The article is accessible online at:
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer216/216_halper.html

For more historical analysis, see Avi Shlaim, The Iron Wall: Israel and
the
Arab World (W.W. Norton, 1999).

-----

Press Information Notes are a free service of the Middle East Research
and
Information Project (MERIP). To subscribe to the MERIP PIN distribution
list, simply respond to ctoensing@merip.org and provide your address in
the
text message box, indicating "SUBSCRIBE PIN" in the subject line. To
unsubscribe, indicate "UNSUBSCRIBE" in the subject line. Thank you!

====================================
When someone tells me I "must read" something, I generally don't.
So I nearly never say it when I post.  I do think this is a seminal
post,
one which puts the Israeli enterprise in perspective.
It explains why the Israelis are so absolutely rotten to the
Palestinians.
What it doesn't explain is how a group of intelligent people can
act with no morality whatever.  For that, perhaps a look at cults
and cultlike groups might be a good start.
However the Israelis got this way, it should be clear that they
are true monsters on the face of the earth.
RLA






From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:48 EST 2001
Article: 259892 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB17E25.A489ECD0@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israeli army overruns village, fire tear-gas into homes, scores 
 suffocated 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 50
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:44:53 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984710551 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:42:31 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:42:31 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176252 soc.culture.israel:329983 soc.culture.usa:608741 soc.culture.jordan:24223 soc.culture.canada:259892 soc.culture.british:556031


                            Israeli army overruns village, fire tear-gas
into homes, scores suffocated
                            Islamic Association for Palestine

                            Posted Wednesday March 14, 2001 - 12:58:49
PM EST

                            Bethlehem: - In scenes underscoring Israeli
brutality against Palestinians,
                            the Israeli occupation army on Wednesday
overran the small village of
                            Tku', five miles south west of Bethlehem,
firing numerous stun grenades
                            and tear gas canisters on and into
villager's homes.

                            Palestinian sources said as many as 50
villagers, including many children,
                            were hospitalized, mostly as a result of
tear gas suffocation and of shock.

                            Villagers told the "Voice of Palestine" that
as many as a hundred stun
                            grenades and tear gas canisters were fired,
and that a big cloud of tear
                            gas formed over the village.

                            Israeli occupation soldiers who arrived at
the small village in six armored
                            vehicles wore special masks against tear
gas.

                            A spokesman for the Israeli occupation army
was quoted as saying that a
                            contingent of the Israeli army was on a
training exercise at the village.

                            When asked about the reported firing of tear
gas into Palestinian houses,
                            the spokesman said "I have no knowledge of
this."

                            © 2001 Islamic Association for Palestine.
This news item is distributed via Middle East News Online
                            (MiddleEastWire.com). For information about
the content or for permission to redistribute, publish or use for
                            broadcast, contact our syndication
department.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:48 EST 2001
Article: 259893 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB17F8C.E4D2B476@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.politics,soc.culture.canada
Subject: US Journalists Consistently Ignore Israeli State Terrorism  by Sheldon 
 L. Richman 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 215
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:50:52 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984710910 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:48:30 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:48:30 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176253 soc.culture.israel:329985 soc.culture.usa:608742 alt.politics:455144 soc.culture.canada:259893


                                     US Journalists Consistently Ignore
Israeli State Terrorism

                                   by Sheldon L. Richman

                                   Many people in the media have such a
romantic view of Israel that they lose
                                   all objectivity. For example, they
would have no trouble believing an
                                   allegation of an Arab attack on
defenseless Israeli civilians. But they act as if
                                   Israeli attacks on Arab civilians
were impossible.

                                   Syndicated columnist Paul Greenberg
has written, "There are terrorists and
                                   there are terrorists. There are those
who choose their targets carefully for
                                   political effect. They're low, but
they're several steps above the ones who
                                   scrupulously avoid military targets
and assault a whole people
                                   indiscriminately, like Yasser
Arafat's child murderers and Meir Kahane's
                                   rhetoric. " Greenberg's point is
that, except for a fringe character like Kahane,
                                   no Israeli would ever "assault a
whole people indiscriminately; " that when
                                   Israel is forced to engage in
violence, it is always surgically targeted against
                                   the guilty.

                                   Faith Without Evidence

                                   This is an article of faith that
requires no evidence for most journalists. During
                                   the late Persian Gulf war, Iraq's
inexcusable Scud missile attacks on Israel
                                   brought the predictable outpouring of
selective indignation from the news
                                   media. Television and newspaper
coverage was intense. The networks
                                   showed the damage to an apartment
house and automobiles, as the mayor of
                                   Tel Aviv charmingly reminded American
viewers that such is life in Israel.

                                   The ubiquitous Benjamin Netanyahu,
Israel's then deputy foreign minister,
                                   fully exploited the opportunities
presented by live television interviews after
                                   the attacks. He said they again
demonstrated why his country cannot deal
                                   with the Palestine Liberation
Organization and repeated the canon that Israel
                                   is surrounded by hostile countries.

                                   During the war, a National Public
Radio newsman could scarcely control his
                                   amusement as he reported that Iraq
justified the Scud attacks by saying that
                                   Israel's military reserve allows no
distinction between civilians and soldiers.
                                   That journalist's scorn is typical of
the double standard that characterizes
                                   coverage of Middle East events.

                                   Yet neither Saddam Hussain nor PLO
extremists are unique in overlooking this
                                   distinction. The Israelis have been
doing the same thing for more than 50
                                   years, with more deadly weapons, in
such places as southern Lebanon.

                                   In 1978, after a major Israeli
incursion into Lebanon, Chief of Staff Mordechai
                                   Gur bluntly told the press, "For 30
years, from the War of Independence until
                                   today, we have been fighting against
a population that lives in villages and
                                   cities. " Gur cited as examples of
Israel's previous campaigns against civilians
                                   the bombing of villages on the east
side of the Jordan valley and the shelling
                                   of towns in the Suez Canal area in
the years after the Six-Day War. These acts
                                   of terror drove more than a million
and a half Jordanians and Egyptians from
                                   their homes.

                                   "The Israeli army has always struck
civilian populations."

                                   At the time of the Israeli general's
statement, Israel's most respected military
                                   journalist, Ze'ev Schiff, wrote, "The
importance of Gur's remarks is the
                                   admission that the Israeli army has
always struck civilian populations,
                                   purposely and consciously. The army,
he said, has never distinguished
                                   civilian [from military] targets ...
[but] purposely attacked civilian targets even
                                   when Israeli settlements had not been
struck."

                                   This is the policy that Moshe
Sharett, Israel's first foreign minister, critically
                                   dubbed "sacred terrorism." (A book of
extracts from Sharett's diary, Israel's
                                   Sacred Terrorism, is available from
the AET book club.) The doctrine is found
                                   in the thinking of Israel's founding
prime minister, David Ben-Gurion, and in
                                   the military actions approved by both
major governing blocs. In 1981, when
                                   the Labor Party criticized then Prime
Minister Menachem Begin for his
                                   bombing of Beirut, which killed
civilians indiscriminately, he responded by
                                   listing some of the civilian attacks
perpetrated by previous Labor
                                   governments. "There were regular
retaliatory actions against civilian Arab
                                   populations," Begin said.

                                   According to the Jerusalem Post,
former Laborite foreign minister and
                                   ambassador to the UN Abba Eban
justified the attacks on civilians by arguing
                                   "there was a rational prospect,
ultimately fulfilled, that afflicted populations
                                   would exert pressure for the
cessation of hostilities. " This would seem to
                                   qualify those Israeli attacks as
purposeful terrorism waged against Arab
                                   civilians by any reasonable notion,
but not by the de facto definition
                                   observed by mainstream American
media, which inherently excludes Israel.

                                   American commentators seem ignorant
of or blind to Israeli attacks on
                                   civilians-such as those carried out
repeatedly in Egypt, Gaza, and Jordan in
                                   the 1950s and 1960s, and, with even
greater frequency, against civilians in the
                                   occupied territories and Lebanon in
the 1970s, 1980s and today. Nor do US
                                   observers or "terrorism experts" seem
to be aware of the abuse of Muslim and
                                   Christian civilians during the 1948
war, such as the mass expulsions at
                                   gunpoint of the inhabitants of Lydda,
Ramle and a large number of other
                                   Palestinian villages. (See Benny
Morris's new book, 1948 and After: Israel
                                   and the Palestinians.) It took the
fullscale invasion of Lebanon and the
                                   ghastly bombardment of Beirut in 1982
to get the media to notice, even briefly.
                                   Since then, they have lapsed into
their previous pattern.

                                   The Power of the Biased Media

                                   The power of the biased US media over
public opinion was well demonstrated
                                   by the coverage of the Scud attacks.
The New York Times quoted Steven L.
                                   Spiegel, a UCLA professor and
long-time apologist for Likudist policies in
                                   Israel, as saying, "Through
television, millions of Americans ... watched
                                   Israelis put on their gas masks ...
and they experienced just about everything
                                   the Israelis did.... I think many
Americans will have a lot more sympathy for
                                   some of Israel's security problems
after this."

                                   It is also safe to say that Americans
would have a lot more sympathy for the
                                   security problems of Palestinian and
Lebanese civilians if the major US media
                                   would provide even a modicum of
information and photo coverage of Israeli
                                   policies to turn these civilians,
through terrorism, against their leaders and
                                   each other.

                                   In fact, the media's ignoring of the
decades-long Israeli terror campaign
                                   against Arab civilians is something
more than careless reporting. It betrays a
                                   systemic bias which implies that
Arab, particularly Palestinian, deaths, no
                                   matter how gruesome matter little,
while the endangerment of Israeli Jews is an
                                   intolerable crime that takes
precedence over all other considerations such as
                                   journalistic balance, elementary fair
play, and the right of the American public
                                   to have access to all of the facts in
order to make its own, informed decisions.

                                   Sheldon Richman is a writer and
editor based in the Washington, DC area.

                                                         Source:

                                              by courtesy & © 2001 WRMEA
& Sheldon L. Richman



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:49 EST 2001
Article: 259897 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB18596.5D13853F@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Sharon Gives All Needed Signs for Disaster By Ramzy Baroud
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 199
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:16:39 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news2.atl 984712462 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:14:22 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:14:22 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176261 soc.culture.israel:329995 soc.culture.usa:608753 soc.culture.canada:259897 soc.culture.british:556037



                            Sharon Gives All Needed Signs for Disaster
                            Middle East News Online
                            By Ramzy Baroud for Middle East News Online
                            Posted Monday March 12, 2001 - 11:47:39 AM
EST

                            All forms of torture against Palestinian
prisoners are expected to be
                            legalized as indicated by official Israeli
sources to the British Sunday
                            Times. Legalizing torture, once more, after
a brief interruption is one of
                            the newly formed government's top
priorities.

                            According to the Times, Sharon's
administration is sympathetic to the
                            demand of reinstating torture, and is easily
capable of persuading Knesset
                            approval once a proposal is introduced.

                            Such reports might not appear as shocking,
once one learns that torture
                            against Palestinian detainees as defined by
international law was never
                            prohibited in its entirety.

                            What's even more serious and alarming than
torturing thousands of
                            Palestinian prisoners through the infliction
of physical or psychological
                            pressure, is the systematic torture
inflicted on an entire nation, whose life
                            inside isolated and fragmented villages and
towns assimilates to a great
                            extent that of a maximum security prison.

                            Sharon who was rightfully dubbed the
"Bulldozer" for his annihilating
                            policies and razing of Palestinian houses
throughout his infamous military
                            career, has just started his first term as a
prime minister with two
                            strategies in mind, both banned by
international law.

                            First is his intention to reinstate the use
of torture against Palestinian
                            prisoners.

                            Despite of the highly publicized decision of
the Israeli high court to
                            prohibit "certain forms" of torture in 1999,
torture continued to be widely
                            used against Palestinians prisoners. The
ruling, which seemed to be an
                            attempt to defer international criticism of
Israel's torture policy
                            perpetrated since 1967, left a great deal of
leeway for Israel's internal
                            intelligence, Shin Bet.

                            According to recent reports composed by the
Israeli human rights
                            organization B'Tselem, 85 percent of
Palestinian prisoners undergo
                            different forms of torture.

                            The Palestinian human rights organization,
Al Dameer reported that since
                            1987, at least 30,000 Palestinian detainees
were exposed to torture by
                            Israeli interrogators.

                            Yet the sentimental value of the Sharon
administration's endeavor to
                            legitimize all of forms of torture is more
significant that actualizing the
                            anticipated decision. Pushing for such a law
just three days after his
                            inauguration provides an early reading of
the "Bulldozer's" future policies.

                            The bid to legalize torture by Sharon's
government coincided with another
                            classic example of Israel's collective
punishment scheme, which if
                            understood properly is very similar to the
torture law which Israel
                            currently contemplates.

                            Israel is designing a much more choking
closure on the Palestinian
                            territories in what has been named the "100
days war." While Palestinian
                            prisoners are often arrested based on
"administrative detention" that
                            ranges from 3 to 6 months, which could be
renewed and result in years in
                            jail without trial, the Palestinian people
will now experience a similar
                            course of torture of 100 days, also
renewable if Israel's generals deem
                            necessary.

                            The "100 days war's" initiative is not only
illegal under the Fourth Geneva
                            Convention and international law which
prohibit policies of starvation and
                            abuse of civilians under occupation, but it
also warns of new massacres
                            under the eyes and ears of the international
community.

                            During his war against Lebanon in the early
1980's Sharon resorted to the
                            policies of siege and closure, preventing
the presence of the press and
                            allowing for massacres to be committed to
forever silence the resistance.
                            Lebanese and Palestinians in many parts of
South Lebanon were forced
                            to eat homeless dogs to survive, as the
international community paid little
                            attention to the Israeli affairs in Lebanon.

                            Yet here once again Sharon corners his prey,
the Palestinians, this time
                            with much more force and influence, not as a
defense minister but as the
                            prime minister and the leader of a national
unity government.

                            Tanks were sent to tighten the siege of
already isolated towns and villages
                            throughout the West Bank, main and hidden
roads were blocked with
                            piles of dirt and heavy concrete blocs.
Jerusalem has been isolated further
                            as a new checkpoint between the occupied
city and the West Bank town
                            of Ramallah has just been situated.

                            Less than one week in office, Sharon gave
all the signs that warn of a real
                            disaster.

                            "Concerned" western countries often express
their concern and offer
                            insufficient condolences after Israel
inflicts harm on Palestinians.

                            Now the international community has no
excuse. The man's massacres in
                            the last five decades speak for themselves.
Now he is in a position that
                            would allow him to bring even more
devastation.

                            Moreover, Arab countries who are meeting in
a Jordan summit later this
                            month share the responsibility of what could
possibly take place in
                            Palestine at the hands of Sharon and his
old-time generals.

                            Needless to say, torment and despair have
struck the Palestinian
                            population in the West Bank and Gaza months
before Sharon even came
                            to power. But Sharon sees his predecessor
Ehud Barak's practices trivial
                            and ineffective. He has his own formula and
his own agenda.

                            But what good will counting the dead do once
the hurricane is over? It is
                            time to stand before the Bulldozer before he
razes everything, including
                            any chance for real peace in the Middle
East.

                            © 2001 Middle East News Online. This news
item is distributed via Middle East News Online
                            (MiddleEastWire.com). For information about
the content or for permission to redistribute, publish or use for
                            broadcast, contact our syndication
department.

===================================
As the article states, torture never really stopped, but the more
extreme forms were certainly muted.
For small favors, many Palestinians are grateful.  While Sharon can
"legalize" it, he cannot legitimate
it.  Sort of like Israel itself, don't you think?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:49 EST 2001
Article: 259900 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB188C6.5667DC5@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Testimony of the victims
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 223
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:30:14 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news2.atl 984713286 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:28:06 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:28:06 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176267 soc.culture.palestine:113837 soc.culture.israel:330001 soc.culture.usa:608761 soc.culture.canada:259900 soc.culture.british:556041


My name is Audi Al-Zalmout. I live in the village of Beit Fourik
near
Nablus. My family has olive groves not far from the village, which
have been
cared for by my family for generations. The olives are our main
source of
income. Not long ago my father, who was 75, went out to the groves
to pick
the olives from our trees. It was still early in the morning, but
already he
had gathered the olives from four trees. He had gone out very early
because
we had been having many problems with the settlers from Eitamar.
They would
come in gangs with guns to burn and uproot our trees. They began
taking more
and more land for the settlement. Our trees were already in danger.
We did
not know that my father would also be in danger. The settlers came
in the
early morning. They did not want to use their guns because they
were afraid
the sound would bring many villagers out to the fields. Instead
they beat my
father, my father who was kind and cared for his family even in his
old age.
They threw him on the ground and threw rocks ant his head until
they had
crushed his skull. Later when I went out to help him I found a man
lying on
the ground. If it were not for the scarf my mother had made for him
I would
not have been able to recognize him.

For all those who have fallen victim to hatred and inhumanity, for
those
loved ones who are left behind to mourn, for the souls of those
whose hearts
are cold,
Lord, hear our prayer.

My name is Mona Al-Jaj. I am from Al Fawar Refugee Camp. One
evening when my
husband was away from home I felt very sick and began to go into
labor with
our third child. Because of the curfew my neighbors were all in
their homes
afraid to come out. I needed to get to hospital. Our camp had been
cut off
>from electricity and it was very dark out, so I left my children
asleep in
their beds and snuck out of our home and into the darkness. There
were no
cars on the road. The soldiers fired at any cars that dared to
approach the
dirt barrier that blocked the road. They would throw gas grenades
or rip
apart the tires of the cars with their bullets, even if the
passengers were
women; even women about to give birth. I had to go on foot, despite
my
pain. Twice I feel, tripping over the rubble and debris left by the
Israeli
bulldozers. Finally, somehow, I reached the main road which is more
than a
kilometer from the camp. Suddenly a car approached. The driver had
brought a
shovel and was bold enough, under cover of darkness, to clear away
some of
the Beit Haggai barrier and get his car through. Miraculously we
were able
to escape detection by the soldiers. By this time I had been on the
road for
more than an hour. I knew it would not be long before my baby would
be born.
With this brave manâ?Ts help I was able to reach Aliya hospital in
Hebron
where I gave birth to a son.

My name is Amina Balout. I am from the village of Rantis north of
Bir Zeit.
One afternoon about 2 weeks ago I began to go into labor. I knew
that it
would take us a long time to get to hospital in Ramallah, so I told
my
husband immediately. Normally it is about a 40-minute drive. But
these are
not normal times. They had set up many roadblocks between Rantis
and Bir
Zeit about 3 months ago. The main entrance to Rantis has been
completely
blocked. The only way out of the village now is over an unpaved
track
through the fields, which are very muddy this time of year. My
husband, my
mother, and my sister came with me in the taxi. We had not gone
very far
when a jeep from the Israeli Defense Force and another from the
security
stopped our taxi and would not allow it to pass. We argued with
them
insisting that they let us through. After about 30 minutes the rain
had
become so bad it would have been impossible for us to go back to
Rantis. The
soldiers finally let us pass. We continued on the road until we
reached the
next roadblock near the Jewish settlement of Halamish. Soldiers
aimed their
rifles at the taxi and ordered us to stop. My husband and the
driver got
out. While they argued with the soldiers for another 30 minutes my
pains
became harder and harder. I was screaming from pain. When finally
they let
us pass we had not gone far before we ran into a long line of cars
waiting
near the village of Um Safa. The taxi driver drove past the line of
cars
until he came to a military jeep. The soldiers aimed their rifles
at the car
and ordered everyone to get out. We shouted that there was a woman
about to
give birth, but the soldier said he would have to get permission
>from his
commanding officer before he could let us pass. While he was away I
could
feel the baby coming. I began screaming, â?oThe baby is coming, the
baby is
coming.â?? By the time the soldier had returned I had already
delivered my
baby in the van. My mother and sister wrapped the baby in a blanket
and gave
her to me to hold against my body to keep warm. An officer finally
came and
saw the baby and allowed us to pass. About 200 meters down the road
another
jeep stopped us. The soldier aimed his gun at us and demanded to
know who
had let us pass. The officer who had permitted us to go on saw what
was
happening and ran quickly to order the soldier to allow us to pass.
We kept
on in the direction of Bir Zeit where we came to another long line
of cars.
The taxi passed them all until 4 soldiers stopped us. My husband
and mother
opened the windows and shouted that they had someone with them who
had just
given birth. They ordered us to wait. One of the soldiers came
around and
opened the door of the van. When he saw me there he began to laugh.
They
ordered us all to get out. My mother became very angry and slammed
the door.
They tried to open it but my mother continued to scream at them to
let us
pass. They insisted that we all get out of the taxi. What could we
do? We
had to get out. I was holding my baby who was still attached to me
by its
cord. I collapsed on the ground. I could not stand up. I was too
weak. My
husband told me later that the soldiers just stood there and
laughed again.
Finally another soldier came and shouted for them to stop and to
let us
drive on. Nobody noticed that my house slipper had fallen off. It
was left
on the ground at the roadblock. Around 8:30 in the evening we
arrived at
the hospital in Ramallah. We had left Rantis at 5:00. We named our
baby
Sabreen, which comes from the word for â?oPatienceâ??.

For the welfare of the unborn children who struggle to be born, for
the
women who must suffer needlessly, for the will to survive even the
worst
hardships, for those who show compassion, for the kindness of
strangers,

Lord, hear our prayer.



My name is Nawal. My father founded the Everest Hotel in Beit Jala
near
Bethlehem. He named it this because it sits on the top of a
mountain. On a
good day you can stand on the balcony and see Jordan. â?oI am in
exclusive
charge of the kitchen and the menu for the restaurant here. When
times were
better we would serve 500 people at once. Many tourists came here
and we
held many wedding banquets for the local people. But you donâ?Tt
see even one
tourist now, and there is nothing to celebrate. For months now I
have not
seen a single person here. This place â?" I can hardly describe
what it used
to be like. I used to be so busy in the kitchen from morning to
night. I
didnâ?Tt even have time to stick my head out and see what was going
on in the
dining room. And now, look, we have moved the ping-pong table to
the center
of the room. The hall is empty anyway. The whole family used to
work here.
What are we doing now is the same thing our leaders on both sides
are
doing â?" playing ping-pong.â??

For all those who have been forced into unemployment, who long for
the
return of a strong work ethic and traditional family values,
Lord hear our prayer.






From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:49 EST 2001
Article: 259901 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB18AB9.12F47291@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Israel's attack on Christianity
References: <3AAD2771.ACDF6717@bellsouth.net>  <98rght$5l8$1@plutonium.btinternet.com> <8pv2bts71d6hipagd580kqttct5leb8mh5@4ax.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 42
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:38:33 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984713771 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:36:11 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:36:11 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176268 soc.culture.israel:330004 soc.culture.usa:608765 soc.culture.canada:259901 soc.culture.british:556042

Every so often I tell the group the same thing, my latest was not above
two weeks ago, perhaps less.
No one pays me anything, no one has ever paid me anything, no one has
promised to pay
me anything and I do not expect to receive any compensation in any form for
posting here.
It is demeaning even to have to write this, which I suppose was the intent
of the posters.
My posts are designed to tell the truth.  If you have a question about the
truth
of any post, I invite you to post your comments.
Most Zionists and their sympathizers here cannot bear to deal with the
truth about
Israel, it is simply too strong stuff for the nonZionist, Jew or Goy.  So
they attack
the character of the person posting the articles.  The ad hominem attack is
in reality
an affirmation that the person attacked has told the truth about their
criminal
enterprise.  The reader should mark this.
RLA

coman wrote:

>  >
> >>
> >> Tell us, Roger Alexander, do you receive monetary support from Saudi
> >> and/or other Arab sources for what has obviously become a full time
> >> occupation on your part?
> >
> >Please try and keep up,  he's already said sorry for that one...
>
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Keep up? Have you read his multitude of pro Arab posts over and
> extended period of time?
>
> He still has not answered the question. I take his continued
> silence to be an affirmative reply.
>
>                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:49 EST 2001
Article: 259902 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB18E27.C6DFBC9D@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Re: Racist Israeli Pigs Terrorize marketers and destroy E. Jerusalem 
 market
References: <3A9DB9F0.B502403@bellsouth.net> <3AA776AE.524D169A@coqui.net>     
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 42
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 21:53:12 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984714648 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:50:48 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:50:48 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176277 soc.culture.israel:330012 soc.culture.usa:608774 soc.culture.canada:259902 soc.culture.british:556046



People's Pizza wrote:

> meshehu  wrote in message
> news:meshehu-1503010659590001@ppp-3055-m2-63.dialup.eol.ca...
> > In article , "People's Pizza"
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > David Lee Makowsky  wrote in message
> > > news:l8Yp6.1431$9o5.133369@news.goodnet.com...
> > > > How often do we have to teach these anti-semitic morons the meaning of
> > > > "anti-semite"?
> > >
> > >
> > > I already know what anti-Semite means, it's an old European term which
> > > described racist attacks against Jews in Europe at a time when there
> were
> > > very few Arabs, Assyrians etc living in Europe (other Semitic peoples).
> > > However this term is now largely mis-understood and irrelevent when used
> in
> > > the context of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle since Arabs are Semitic
> also
> > > if not more so.
> >
> >
> > None of this changes the fact that "anti-semite" has a specific
> > definition, which is - prejudice against and/or hatred of Jews.
> >
> > In reality though, calling someone an anti-semite these days, is just a
> > more economical (and polite) way of saying "small-minded jew-hating
> > bigot".
>
> .........Which shows the term has run its course and is now largely
> irrelevant. You need a new term to describe anti-Jewish bigotry.

Actually, the term is seldom used to describe antiJewish bigotry.
(at least on these boards) Here Zionist bigots use it to avoid having
to confront their own racism and terrible acts of oppression.
Perfect example of Orwellian use of language.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:50 EST 2001
Article: 259904 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB1914A.D62B77E3@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa
Subject: EUROPE TURNS HEAT ON ISRAEL
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 135
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:06:34 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984715451 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:04:11 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:04:11 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176279 soc.culture.israel:330013 soc.culture.british:556050 soc.culture.canada:259904 soc.culture.usa:608779


           EUROPE TURNS HEAT ON ISRAEL

          France leads call for action over
          blockades of Palestinian cities
          and human rights abuses as EU
          seeks greater role in Middle East

 Ian Black in Brussels and Suzanne Goldenberg in Jerusalem

 The Guardian - 14 March 2001:
 Israel could have a key agreement with the European
 Union suspended if it does not end human rights abuses
 and blockades of Palestinian areas in the West Bank
 and Gaza.

 In their first practical response to the Middle East
 crisis, EU governments are considering punitive
 measures to underline that the policies of the new
 Likud prime minister, Ariel Sharon, are not
 acceptable, the Guardian has learned.

 Robin Cook and fellow EU foreign ministers are to
 review options next Monday after Chris Patten, the
 commissioner for external relations, warned Israeli
 leaders yesterday that their economic stranglehold
 must be lifted.

 "It does not seem to us that everything that is being
 done in the West Bank and Gaza can be justified in
 security terms," Mr Patten said during a visit to the
 area with Anna Lindh, the foreign minister of Sweden,
 the current holder of the EU's rotating presidency.

 France is leading calls for tough diplomatic action
 against Israel, seeking to boost the EU's role in a
 region traditionally dominated by the US at a time
 when the new Bush administration has not made its
 policies clear.

 In a strongly worded paper on the Middle East
 submitted to EU governments last month, the French
 foreign minister, Hubert V=E9drine, argued: "Europeans
 have shrunk from making the effort needed to overcome
 their contradictions and apprehensions [and] are not
 prepared to pay the political price of a genuine role,
 and have become accustomed to their role as bit
 players.

 "The EU should make the US recognise that it is
 legitimate for Europe to take its own approach to
 peace. If the union really wishes to pay a role, it
 must escape from the situation where defining a common
 position comes down to seeking the lowest common
 denominator in platitudinous declarations or
 ritualised diplomatic tours."

 The EU could decide to suspend all or part of its 1995
 association agreement with Israel - which includes
 high level political dialogue, cooperation in several
 key areas and valuable trade preferences worth
 millions of pounds a year - with immediate effect.
 Britain and Germany would be unlikely to favour such
 action but France would have the backing of Spain and
 Greece.

 EU diplomats said last night that other less drastic
 measures under consideration included suspension of
 cooperation with Israel in the areas of science and
 technology or agricultural liberalisation talks.

 The EU-Israel agreement was only ratified last year
 after the previous Likud prime minister, Binyamin
 Netanyahu, was replaced by the Labour leader, Ehud
 Barak, who was in turn defeated by the hardline Mr
 Sharon last month.

 Israel bowed to its critics yesterday by easing its
 blockade of cities in the West Bank and the Gaza
 Strip. Two roads to the West Bank town of Ramallah
 were reopened.

 But the Palestinian information minister, Yasser Abed
 Rabbo, said the changes were cosmetic and aimed "at
 deceiving the world that the closure has been lifted".


 Washington warned Israel on Monday that if the
 economic pressure brought about a collapse of the
 Palestinian Authority, then it would harm prospects
 for peace.

 The Israeli army sealed off the West Bank and Gaza
 when the intifada erupted, blocking more than 100,000
 workers from jobs in Israel that are the lifeline of
 the economy.

 Since then, the army has intensified its stranglehold
 on Palestinian cities, sealing off roads with concrete
 blocks and mounds of earth, positioning armoured
 personnel carriers at the entrances to towns and, in
 the last few weeks, digging an 11-mile waterless moat
 around the desert town of Jericho.

 Mr Patten said the EU urged Mr Sharon to transfer =A336m
 in tax revenues it has withheld from the Palestinian
 administration. He said the siege, which has cost the
 Palestinian economy at least =A31bn and driven up
 unemployment, was counter-productive.

 "If the economy continues to deteriorate in the West
 Bank and Gaza and if more people lose their jobs, if
 the Palestinian administration is undermined as a
 potential centre of authority, it will be more
 difficult to deal with security issues," Mr Patten
 said.

 In his visit to the Gaza Strip on Monday, Mr Patten
 also issued a warning to Yasser Arafat, saying the EU
 did not want to continue its financial bail-out unless
 the Palestinian leader ended corruption and imposed
 some order on the Palestinian Authority.

=================================
And high time too.  The only language that Israel understands
and responds to is pure force.  They are truly Hobbesian
actors.  No morality there, no milk of human kindness,
not even any thought of reciprocity in action, just
brute, brutal arrogant force.  They use it, they respond to it,
nothing else.  Israelis are the scum of the earth.
RLA






From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:50 EST 2001
Article: 259905 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB192CD.6B06F3BE@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa
Subject: Open bridge no more By Daoud Kuttab
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 106
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:13:02 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984715841 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:10:41 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:10:41 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176280 soc.culture.israel:330014 soc.culture.canada:259905 soc.culture.british:556051 soc.culture.usa:608780

the following appeared in the Jerusalem Post and the Jordan Times

Open bridge no more
View From The East By Daoud Kuttab


(March 15) - The new Jordan River bridge that has been built with
Japanese money is impressive in its structure. Towering high, the new
bridge, along with a short stretch of four-lane highway, is scheduled
to be completed today. The contractors seem to be on time, but it is
unlikely that any Japanese or Jordanian official will be cutting the
ribbon of the new structure any time soon.

The bridge, built at a level much higher than the existing landscape,
looks like overkill. The trickle of water that flows underneath
clearly gives the impression that the major purpose of the bridge is
not simply to cross what is left of the waters of the Jordan River,
but to indicate the Japanese support for the need for heavy flow of
people and goods between Palestine to the west of the Jordan River
and the Kingdom of Jordan to the east.

No dignitaries will be making the trip to inaugurate the new crossing
point because the number of people crossing it has dwindled faster
than the trickles of water flowing under the huge bridge.

The bridge has three names. Israelis refer to it as Allenby Bridge,
honoring the British officer who crossed it during World War I, thus
ending 400 years of Turkish rule and replacing it with British
colonial rule. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, which came into being
in the middle of the 20th century, gave the bridge the name of its
longest-living ruler, King Hussein. The Palestinian Authority, which
came partially into control of the bridge as a result of the Oslo
Agreements, calls it the Karameh Crossing in reference to the battle
between Palestinian fedayeen and the Israeli army which tried to
invade their encampment on the east bank in the late Sixties.

Regardless of the name, the opening of the bridge for the movement of
people back and forth was part of the policy of then Israeli defense
minister Moshe Dayan. Dayan's open-bridge policy was aimed at leaving
a release valve for Palestinians so that they would not explode from
the pressure cooker of the Israeli occupation.

To be sure, the open-bridge policy was no picnic. Humiliating Israeli
policy, which included strip searches, X-rays of shoes and men's
headdresses and going through every piece of clothing, made the short
trip (especially in the summer) a hell of an experience. What was
once a 90-minute trip from Amman to Jerusalem became an all-day
affair. The procedures eased and the strip searches were canceled
once the PA with its flag and police became juniors to the Israelis
who continued to have overall control of the crossing point.

For better or worse, the bridge was never closed (except for
holidays). Those leaving for a visit, to work abroad or to study,
always knew they could go and return. Summer and holiday visitors
>from Jordan also knew they could return. The bridge stayed open
despite wars (1973 and 1982), internal crises, intifada, shootings,
killings. Sure, political activists were often barred from travel,
but for everyday Palestinians, there was never a time when they
couldn't make the trip, or were afraid that if they crossed from one
direction to the other, they would be trapped.

Until now.

The recent months have witnessed the most dramatic change on the
Jordan river crossing since 1967. First it became difficult to cross
because Jericho was a closed area. Taxi drivers found alternative
ways to circumvent the Israeli checkposts. So the Israeli army dug
trenches around Jericho so that cars couldn't enter. People continued
finding alternatives, including walking to Jericho and from there to
the bridge and freedom.

Then came the new regulation; the bridge itself was closed to
traffic, except for special cases. Special permits are now needed to
make the trip to Jordan. VIP permits to members of the PA have been
revoked.

Haj Ismael, a taxi driver who has been working the bridge route on
the Jordanian side, confirms that never in 34 years has the situation
been this bad. There is a drop of more than 80 percent of passengers,
he said to me on Monday.

The result not only has reduced the number of travelers, but it has
even affected business in Jordan. Business people interviewed on the
new Internet radio Ammannet ( www.ammannet.net) blamed the major drop
in business over the Id al-Adha holiday to the absence of the
visitors who normally come to see relatives.

The present closed-bridge policy means either that the Israeli
leadership is willing to take its chances with a major explosion, or
it expects a radical solution soon in which it will forever give up
control over the Jordan River crossing despite the $8 million the
Japanese laid out to make it a major crossing for people and goods.

Let us hope and pray that the latter is the case, otherwise, may God
help all of us once the explosion takes place.

===========================
Every day I think I have catalogued the extent of the Israeli
meanness.  And every day they confound me.  They are such
busy, busy monsters, bent on making life Hell on earth for the
Palestinians.  This of course, makes them devils,
but as Matt Giwer says, you knew that.
RLA





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Thu Mar 15 23:24:50 EST 2001
Article: 259906 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB1959F.B22AEEFA@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: UC Berkeley students demand that regents divest from Israel
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 140
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 22:25:03 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984716560 208.61.185.133 (Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:22:40 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:22:40 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176283 soc.culture.israel:330017 soc.culture.usa:608787 soc.culture.canada:259906 soc.culture.british:556053

http://www.sfbg.com/News/35/24/24ogdivest.html

Unfair shares
UC Berkeley students demand that regents divest from Israel
By Camille T. Taiara

Less than a month into the second intifada sparked by recently elected
Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon's September 2000 visit to the
Al-Aksa
Mosque and the Temple Mount in eastern Jerusalem, UC Berkeley students
have
launched an Israel divestment campaign targeting the very institution
that
holds the purse strings to their education: the UC Regents.

"The people who run our universities are not just tacitly supporting but
are
actually benefiting from the exploitation of Palestinians," said Snehal
Shingavi, a UC Berkeley graduate student.

What UC Berkeley students demand is that the school system pull shares
from
companies that either have branches or subsidiaries in Israel or do $5
million per year or more in business there. So far 13 such companies
have
been identified, including General Electric, Raytheon, Cisco Systems,
Hewlett-Packard, Microsoft, Texas Instruments, and AOL Time Warner.
Investments in these firms represent at least 11 percent of the UC
system's
$59 billion investment profile, totaling $6.2 billion – or $1.7 billion
more
than all direct U.S. federal aid to Israel combined.

The students' campaign could draw attention to the increasingly violent
conflict. Since Sept. 28, 2000, 400 Palestinians have been killed,
compared
with fewer than 70 Israelis.

Palestinian towns in the West Bank and Gaza are separated by Jewish-only

settlements and militarized Israeli highways flanked by security zones.
It's
impossible for Palestinians to travel from one section of the occupied
territories to another without going through several checkpoints.

Student activists, who have formed Students for Justice in Palestine
(SPJ),
re-created some of these conditions when they set up a mock checkpoint
at UC
Berkeley's Sather Gate Feb. 6, the day Sharon was elected prime
minister.
They held a teach-in the next day that attracted 150 participants, and
they
distributed a petition to present to the regents for their upcoming
meeting
in Los Angeles March 14 and 15.

SJP carried out another action on campus March 6, this time setting up a

mock refugee camp. It also began sending delegations to Davis, Santa
Barbara, and Los Angeles to train other UC students to set up similar
movements. More delegations are planned for the University of
Massachusetts
at Amherst, the University of Michigan at Ann Arbor, Columbia
University,
and possibly Harvard University, later this month.

"It's a very touchy subject, because once you start talking about it,
you
are going to criticize the state of Israel," said Ehssan Vandaei, a
22-year-old Iranian American undergraduate. "It's very hard for even
very
open-minded, progressive-leaning people to look at it from the
perspective
of the state of Israel having been created in the context of colonialism
and
equating Zionism in practice with imperialism and apartheid."

Indeed, Chancellor Robert Berdahl took out a half-page ad in the Feb. 12

issue of the Daily Cal condemning the mock Israeli checkpoint as having
"created an atmosphere that many in our community felt was hostile."
Berdahl
and others in the university also attempted to shut down a student-run
class
this semester called "Occupied Palestine."

But student activists say they are not approaching the crisis from an
anti-Jewish perspective, but rather within the context of the growing
movement of liberation struggles against neoliberalist globalization.
Many
are veterans of movements like the antisweatshop struggle, the effort to

revive affirmative action, and the movement to free Tibet. Only about 10

percent of SPJ's 30 to 40 core activists are of Arab descent.

Activists like Vandaei are surprised by the amount of support they have
received, including that of some leftist Jews both on and off campus.

Still, the student proposal will almost certainly generate controversy,
even
among progressives in Berkeley. In the past, debates over U.S. policy in
the
Middle East have led to bitter divisions on the Berkeley left. A 1984
ballot
initiative urging the president and Congress to cut U.S. support to
Israel
by the amount Israel was spending on new settlements in the West Bank
and
Gaza put many friends and allies in Berkeley Citizens Action on
different
sides of a hard-fought campaign.

"I think the best thing that Israel could do would be to get out of the
occupied territories. But we don't want to cut ourselves off from
reaching
Jews who aren't sure where they're at," says Rabbi Burt Jacobson of the
Kehilla Community Synagogue.

But SJP continues to build coalitions in support of divestment wherever
it
can.

"I think we're being realistic about the fact that the universities will
not
divest quickly," Vandaei admitted. "We're not dealing with a system that

people in America were already kind of familiar with and knew was wrong
[like South Africa in the 1980s]. But I can definitely say that the
momentum
is on our side."

E-mail Camille T. Taiara at camille@sfbg.com.

_________________________________________

Once the students get started, it is only a matter of time.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 15:29:36 EST 2001
Article: 259950 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB23D6D.3F2009B6@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israeli Stun Grenade Burns Palestinian Children
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 130
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:21:02 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984759520 208.61.185.133 (Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:18:40 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:18:40 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176324 soc.culture.israel:330102 soc.culture.usa:608950 soc.culture.canada:259950 soc.culture.british:556155


Israeli Stun Grenade Burns Palestinian Children

Reuters | March 15, 2001  8:13AM

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Six Palestinian children suffered burns on
Thursday
when Israeli soldiers threw a stun grenade into a West Bank schoolyard
in new
violence after an Israeli pledge to ease its blockade on Palestinians.

Doctors in the divided town of Hebron said three of the six children
sustained burns to the head, hands and back and the other three were
suffering from minor blisters and shock.

The Israeli army said it was checking the report. It was not clear why
the
stun grenade was thrown but witnesses said there were no clashes in the
area
at the time.

"Why did they throw the grenade into the yard? This is only a
provocation,"
said teacher Mohammed Hawaismah as parents carried children out of the
school
and into ambulances.

Israel promised earlier on Thursday to slightly relax its blockade of
Palestinians, but vowed not to make such "gestures" to Palestinian
leaders
and security forces whom it accuses of fomenting violence.

Palestinian leaders say the easing of the blockade was only cosmetic and

shopkeepers and ordinary workers in Arab East Jerusalem declared a
one-day
strike which closed shops and schools.

ISRAEL TAKES CAUTIOUS STEPS

Announcing plans to ease the restrictions on Palestinians, Israel said
it
would let in building materials, allow fishing off the Gaza Strip and,
where
security would not be compromised, allow free passage in parts of the
West
Bank and Gaza.

It said in a statement after a meeting of Sharon's security cabinet that

Israel wanted to make life easier for ordinary people but not for those
responsible for violence.

Trenches that were dug by the army, encircling West Bank cities such as
the
commercial hub of Ramallah, remain in place.

Sharon has been under pressure to ease the plight of Palestinians from
the
European Union, Russia and the United States, where he is due to meet
President George W. Bush on Tuesday for the first time since they both
took
office.

About 10,000 Palestinians marched in the West Bank town of Qalqiliya at
a
funeral for a 17-year-old Palestinian whose body was found by friends in
an
orange grove on Thursday morning at a place where stonethrowers clashed
with
soldiers on Wednesday.

Palestinian doctors said X-rays of the body showed he had been hit by a
rubber-coated metal bullet. The Israeli army said troops used "riot
control
means" during Wednesday's violence.

After the funeral, mourners marched to a nearby Israeli checkpoint where
some
threw stones at soldiers. The army fired rubber-coated metal bullets in
return but there were no reports of serious injuries.

The Qalqiliya teenager's death brought the toll to 346 Palestinians, 65
Israelis and 13 Israeli Arabs killed since a Palestinian uprising began
in
September after peace talks became deadlocked.

In other violence, the army said Palestinians threw two anti-tank
grenades at
patrolling soldiers, but no one was hurt. It said soldiers had disabled
two
anti-tank land mines planted on a road near a Jewish settlement in
southern
Gaza overnight.

EASED MOVEMENT OF GOODS AND PEOPLE

The army said was starting to allow free movement of goods, including
dynamite for the Palestinian construction industry, and of people in
some
areas.

Palestinians say Israel's closure policies are collective punishment for
the
uprising and accuse it of turning Palestinian cities into detention
camps.
Israel says the blockade strengthens security after nearly six months of

bloodshed.

Israeli army chief Shaul Mofaz said officers were holding regular talks
with
their Palestinian counterparts to try to ensure there was no surge in
the
confrontations.

"The key is also in the hands of the Palestinians with the hope they
will
reduce the level of violence and terror and return to the negotiating
table,"
Mofaz told Army Radio.

Ahmed Abdel-Rahman, an aide to Palestinian President Yasser Arafat, said

Israel's easing of restrictions "hid a plan that Sharon intends to hit
the
Palestinian Authority." He gave no details. 
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Some useful quotes from Albert Einstein
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 59
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 18:44:02 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.133
X-Trace: news1.atl 984789692 208.61.185.133 (Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:41:32 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 19:41:32 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176394 soc.culture.israel:330182 soc.culture.usa:609130 soc.culture.canada:259984

Friends,

I came across the following interesting and fully-referenced quotations
by Albert Einstein.  They might be useful in some discussions.

Raja



1.
Should we be unable to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts
with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our 2,000
years of suffering and deserve all that will come to us.

       Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): letter to
Chaim Weizmann, Nov. 25, 1929
-----------------------------------
2.
I believe firmly that the Jews, considering the smallness and dependency
of their colony in Palestine, are not threatened by the folly of power.

       Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): letter to
Maurice Solovine, Mar. 16, 1921, in Albert Einstein: Letters to Solovine
[1987] tr. W. Baskin
-----------------------------------
3.
I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the
basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state.
Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature
of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and
a measure of temporal power no matter how modest.  I am afraid of the
inner damage Judaism will sustain ? especially from the development of a
narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already
had to fight strongly.

       Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): "Our Debt
to Zionism," speech before the National Labor Committee for Palestine,
New York, Apr. 17, 1938 (repr. in Out of My Later Years [1950] ch.52)
-----------------------------------
4.
No one has the moral right to call himself a Christian or a Jew if he is
prepared to commit murder upon the instruction of a given authority, or
if he permits himself to be used for the purpose of initiating or
preparing such a crime in any way whatsoever.

       Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): writing
in 1928, per Banesh Hoffmann, Albert Einstein: Creator and Rebel [1972]
ix
-----------------------------------
5.
The world is a dangerous place to live in not because of those who do
evil but because of those who watch and let it happen.

       Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): quoted in
Time magazine, "Terror and Pity", Sep. 2, 1996
 -----------------------------------





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 15:29:37 EST 2001
Article: 260109 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB412D6.C6076807@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Freud, Zionism, and Vienna  By Edward Said 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 324
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 19:43:50 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.237
X-Trace: news2.atl 984879689 208.61.185.237 (Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:41:29 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:41:29 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176487 soc.culture.israel:330413 soc.culture.usa:609550 soc.culture.canada:260109 soc.culture.british:556420

Politics: Freud, Zionism, and Vienna
                            Posted on Saturday, March 17 @ 14:23:32 EST
by webmasterContributed by: webmaster



                            By Edward Said

                            This is a parable worth a few lines here,
although it derives from a
                            rather peculiar personal experience of mine
which has attracted
                            unusual, if undeserved, media and public
attention. Ordinarily, I
                            don't use myself as an example, but because
this one has been so misrepresented and
                            also because it might illuminate the context
of the Palestinian-Zionist struggle it took place
                            in, I have permitted myself to use it. In
late June and early July 2000, I made a personal
                            family visit to Lebanon, where I also gave
two public lectures. Like most Arabs, my
                            family and I were very interested to visit
South Lebanon to see the recently evacuated
                            "security zone" militarily occupied by
Israel for 22 years, from which troops of the Jewish
                            state were unceremoniously expelled by the
Lebanese resistance. Our visit took place on
                            3 July, during which day-long excursion we
spent time in the notorious Khiam prison,
                            built by the Israelis in 1987, in which
8,000 people were tortured and detained in
                            dreadful, bestial conditions. Right after
that we drove to the border post, also abandoned
                            by Israeli troops, now a deserted area
except for Lebanese visitors who come there in
                            large numbers to throw stones of celebration
across the still heavily fortified border. No
                            Israelis, neither military nor civilians,
were in sight.



                            During our 10-minute stop I was photographed
there without my knowledge pitching a
                            tiny pebble in competition with some of the
younger men present, none of whom of
                            course had any particular target in sight.
The area was empty for miles and miles. Two
                            days later my picture appeared in newspapers
in Israel and all over the West. I was
                            described as a rock-throwing terrorist, a
man of violence, and so on and on, in the
                            familiar chorus of defamation and falsehood
known to anyone who has incurred the
                            hostility of Zionist propaganda.

                            Two ironies stand out. One was that although
I have written at least eight books on
                            Palestine and have always advocated
resistance to Zionist occupation, I have never
                            argued for anything but peaceful coexistence
between us and the Jews of Israel once
                            Israel's military repression and
dispossession of Palestinians has stopped. My writings
                            have circulated all over the world in at
least 35 languages, so my positions are scarcely
                            unknown, and my message is very clear. But,
having found it useless to refute the facts
                            and arguments I have presented and, more
important, having been unable to prevent my
                            work from reaching larger and larger
audiences, the Zionist movement has resorted to
                            shabbier and shabbier techniques to try to
stop me. Two years ago they hired an obscure
                            Israeli-American lawyer to "research" the
first ten years of my life and "prove" that even
                            though I was born in Jerusalem I was never
really there; this was supposed to show that
                            I was a liar who had misrepresented my right
to return, even though -- and this is the
                            stupidity and triviality of the argument --
the invidious Israeli Law of Return allows any
                            Jew anywhere the "right" to come to Israel
and live, whether or not they had even set
                            foot in Israel before.

                            Besides, so crude and inaccurate were this
lawyer's methods of investigation that many
                            people whom he interviewed wrote in and
contradicted what he said; none of the
                            journals, except one, that he approached for
publication accepted his article because of
                            its misrepresentations and distortions. Not
only was this campaign an effort to discredit
                            me personally (the editor of the journal
that published it said openly that he had printed
                            the silly rubbish produced by this hired gun
simply because he wanted to discredit me
                            personally precisely because I have a lot of
readers) but quite amazingly it was meant to
                            show that all Palestinians are liars and
cannot be believed in their assertions about a right
                            to return.

                            Fast upon the heels of this orchestrated
effort there came the business of the
                            stone-throwing. And here is the second
irony. Despite Israel's 22-year devastation of
                            south Lebanon, its destruction of entire
villages, the killing of hundreds of civilians, its use
                            of mercenary soldiers to plunder and punish,
its deplorable use of the most inhuman
                            methods of torture and imprisonment in Khiam
and elsewhere -- despite all that, Israeli
                            propaganda, aided and abetted by a corrupt
Western media, chose to focus on a
                            harmless act of mine, blowing it up to
monstrously absurd proportions that suggested that
                            I was a violent fanatic interested in
killing Jews. The context was left out, as were the
                            circumstances, i.e. that I simply threw a
pebble, that no Israeli was anywhere present,
                            that no physical injury or harm was
threatened to anyone. More bizarrely still, a whole,
                            again orchestrated campaign was mounted to
try to get me dismissed from the university
                            where I have taught for 38 years. Articles
in the press, commentary, letters of abuse and
                            death threats were all used to intimidate or
silence me, including those by colleagues of
                            mine who suddenly discovered their
allegiance to the state of Israel. The comedy of it all,
                            the total lack of logic that tried to
connect a trivial incident in South Lebanon to my life
                            and works, was to no avail, however.
Colleagues rallied to my side, as did many
                            members of the public. Most important, the
university administration magnificently
                            defended my right to my opinions and
actions, and noted that the campaign against me
                            wasn't at all about my having thrown a stone
(an act rightly characterised as protected
                            speech), but about my political positions
and activity that resisted Israel's policy of
                            occupation and repression.

                            The latest episode in all this Zionist
pressure is in some ways the saddest and most
                            shameful. In late July 2000, I was contacted
by the director of the Freud Institute and
                            Museum in Vienna to ask if I would accept an
invitation to deliver the annual Freud
                            lecture there in May 2001. I said yes, and
on 21 August received an official letter from
                            the Institute's director inviting me to do
so in the name of the board. I promptly accepted,
                            having written about Freud and for many
years been a great admirer of his work and life.
                            (Incidentally, it should be noted that Freud
was an early anti-Zionist but later modified his
                            view when Nazi persecutions of European Jews
made a Jewish state seem like a
                            possible solution to widespread and lethal
anti-Semitism. But I believe that his position
                            vis-à-vis Zionism was always an ambivalent
one.)

                            The topic I proposed for my lecture was
"Freud and the Non-European" in which I
                            intended to argue that although Freud's work
was for and about Europe, his interest in
                            ancient civilisations like those of Egypt,
Palestine, Greek and Africa was an indication of
                            the universalism of his vision and the
humane scope of his work. Moreover, I believed
                            that his thought deserved to be appreciated
for its anti-provincialism, quite unlike that of
                            his contemporaries who denigrated other
non-European cultures as lesser or inferior.

                            Then without warning on 8 February of this
year, I was informed by the Institute's
                            chairman, a Viennese sociologist by the name
of Schülein, that the board had decided to
                            cancel my lecture, because (he said) of the
political situation in the Middle East "and the
                            consequences of it." No other explanation
was given. It was a most unprofessional and
                            lamentable gesture very much in
contradiction with the spirit and the letter of Freud's
                            work. In over 30 years of lecturing all over
the world this had never happened to me,
                            and I immediately responded by asking
Schalein in a one-sentence letter to explain to me
                            how a lecture on Freud in Vienna had
anything to do with "the political condition in the
                            Middle East." I have of course received no
answer.

                            To make matters worse, the New York Times
published a story on 10 March about the
                            episode, along with a grotesquely enlarged
version of the famous photograph in South
                            Lebanon last July, an event that had taken
place well before the Freud people had invited
                            me in late August. When Schalein was
interviewed by the Times, he had the gall to bring
                            up the photo and say what he never had the
courage to say to me, that it (as well as my
                            criticism of Israel's occupation) was the
reason for the cancellation, given, he added, that
                            it might offend Viennese Jewish
sensitivities in the context of Jörg Haider's presence, the
                            Holocaust, and the history of Austrian
anti-Semitism.

                            That a respectable academic should say such
rubbish beggars the imagination, but that he
                            should do so even as Israel is besieging and
killing Palestinians mercilessly on a daily
                            basis -- that is indecent.

                            What in their appalling pusillanimity the
Freudian gang did not say publicly was that the
                            real reason for the unseemly cancellation of
my lecture was that it was the price they paid
                            to their donors in Israel and the US. An
exhibition of Freud's papers mounted by the
                            Institute has already been in Vienna and New
York; now the hope is that it will be put on
                            in Israel. The potential funders seem to
have demanded that they would pay for the
                            exhibition in Tel Aviv if my lecture were
cancelled. The spineless Vienna board caved in,
                            and my lecture was cancelled accordingly,
not because I advocate violence and hatred,
                            but because I do not!

                            I said at the time that Freud was hounded
out of Vienna by the Nazis and the majority of
                            the Austrian people. Today those same
paragons of courage and intellectual principle
                            ban a Palestinian from lecturing. So low has
this particularly unpleasant brand of Zionism
                            sunk that it cannot justify itself by open
debate and genuine dialogue. It uses the shadowy
                            mafia tactics of threat and extortion to
exact silence and compliance. So desperately
                            does it seek acceptance that it reveals
itself in Israel and through its supporters
                            elsewhere, alas, to be in favour of effacing
the Palestinian voice entirely, whether by
                            choking Palestinian villages like Bir Zeit,
or by shutting down discussion and criticism
                            wherever it can find collaborators and
cowards to carry out its reprehensible demands.
                            No wonder that in such a climate Ariel
Sharon is Israel's leader.

                            But in the end these thuggish tactics
backfire, since not everyone is afraid, and not every
                            voice can be silenced. After 50 years of
Zionist censorship and misrepresentation, the
                            Palestinians continue their struggle. And
everywhere, despite poor media coverage,
                            despite the venality of institutions like
the Freud Society, despite the cowardice of
                            intellectuals who put their consciences to
sleep, people speak up for justice and peace.
                            Immediately after Vienna cancelled my
invitation, the London Freud Museum invited me
                            to deliver the lecture I was to have given
in Vienna. (After being driven from Vienna in
                            1938, Freud spent the last year of his life
in London.) Two Austrian institutions, the
                            Institute for the Human Sciences and the
Austrian Society for Literature invited me to
                            lecture in Vienna at a date of my choosing.
A group of distinguished psychoanalysts and
                            psychoanalytic critics (including Mustafa
Safouan) wrote a letter to the Freud Institute
                            protesting the cancellation. Many others
have been shocked at such naked bullying and
                            have said so in public. Meanwhile,
Palestinian resistance continues everywhere.

                            I still believe it is our role as a people
seeking peace with justice to provide an alternative
                            vision to Zionism's, a vision based on
equality and inclusion, rather than on apartheid and
                            exclusion. Each episode such as the one I
have described here augments my conviction
                            that neither Israelis nor Palestinians have
any alternative to sharing a land that both claim.
                            I also believe that the Al-Aqsa Intifada
must be directed towards that end, even though
                            political and cultural resistance to
Israel's reprehensible occupation policies of siege,
                            humiliation, starvation and collective
punishment must be vigourously resisted. The Israeli
                            military causes immense damage to
Palestinians day after day: more innocent people are
                            killed, their land destroyed or confiscated,
their houses bombed and demolished, their
                            movements circumscribed or stopped entirely.
Thousands of civilians cannot find work,
                            go to school, or receive medical treatment
as a result of these Israeli actions. Such
                            arrogance and suicidal rage against the
Palestinians will bring no results except more
                            suffering and more hatred, which is why in
the end Sharon has always failed and resorted
                            to useless murder and pillage. For our own
sakes, we must rise above Zionism's
                            bankruptcy and continue to articulate our
own message of peace with justice. If the way
                            seems difficult, it cannot be abandoned.
When any of us is stopped, ten others can take
                            his or her place. That is the genuine
hallmark of our struggle, and neither censorship nor
                            base complicity with it can prevent its
success.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 15:29:37 EST 2001
Article: 260110 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB41841.6BB71F7@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Israel=92s?= lifting of the Siege is Purely Cosmetic
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 74
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:06:57 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.237
X-Trace: news1.atl 984881078 208.61.185.237 (Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:04:38 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:04:38 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176494 soc.culture.israel:330423 soc.culture.usa:609557 soc.culture.canada:260110 soc.culture.british:556421

The Palestine Monitor, An Information Clearinghouse

IN FOCUS # 5 Israel’s lifting of the Siege is Purely Cosmetic

March 15, 2000

On Tuesday March 13, the Israeli government announced that it was
lifting
the blockades of several Palestinian cities, namely Qalqilya, Tulkarem,
Bethlehem and Hebron but the blockade placed Sunday in Qalandiya and
other
areas would remain in place to due security considerations.

It would be easy to breathe a sigh of relief if this announcement were
something Palestinians could believe to be true. But, despite the
Israeli
government’s attempt to be seen as rational and even benevolent, the
Palestinians in the Occupied Territories did not hold their collective
breath. It may be said, and in fact it was, that the blockades were only

being “eased” or “relaxed” but they were certainly not lifted.

For example, the Israeli soldiers cleared the dirt roadblocks along the
Ramallah-Birzeit Road that were the site of a large local protest
against
the Israeli siege on Monday. However, according to eyewitnesses, the
Israeli
checkpoint is still there-blocking the road, and the soldiers have
returned
to their work routinely, stopping cars and students, checking ID’s and
harassing villagers on their way to and from Ramallah. This remains the
same
for the other areas. Palestinians movement is still restricted. Soldiers
and
jeeps, cement blocks and dirt barricades, are still being used to
continue
the humiliating collective punishment of the civilian population.

Sharon only partially “lifted” the blockades when public international
pressure was placed on Israel. On Tuesday March 12, the United States
Government spokesman stated that Israeli blockades of Palestinian cities
are
ineffective at stopping “terror” attacks and the recent tightening of
blockades around Palestinian cities only serve to harm the civilian
population. Even the international media picked up on the tightening of
West
Bank closures after Sunday’s extra-sealing of the Ramallah area.

Nevertheless, despite the international condemnation and media coverage,
one
thing must be clear. The structure of siege remains. Israel has not
ended
its siege of the OPT, nor has it changed it overall approach to
containing
the West Bank. The Palestinian cantons, Bantustans, ghettos, camps and
prisons, still exist; entirely cut off from one another by settlements,
bypass roads and security fences. The Palestinian enclaves are still
isolated and Israeli soldiers still man checkpoints in 91 different
areas of
the West Bank. Nothing has changed. Israel still retains, the ability to

tighten or relax the illegal policy of closure.

For more information, contact Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi at +972 50-254-218
or
visit www.palestinemonitor.org

===================================

>From all I've read, the idea is to take the heat off Sharon while he is
in
Washington.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 15:29:38 EST 2001
Article: 260111 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB420BA.F57ACC4D@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada
Subject: Re: Some useful quotes from Albert Einstein
References: <3AB2B352.ABB41354@bellsouth.net> <3AB37DE6.FC91CA76@coqui.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 70
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 20:43:07 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.185.237
X-Trace: news1.atl 984883244 208.61.185.237 (Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:40:44 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:40:44 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176505 soc.culture.israel:330444 soc.culture.usa:609575 soc.culture.canada:260111

I sincerely hope you will come to my aid the next time
the idiot Kim Bebbington quotes (or puts up a made up quote)
me for some proposition.  Haven't noticed you exactly
jumping to do that in the past.
RLA

Martin Goldstein wrote:

> These quotes of Albert Einstein have NO MEANING whatsoever, unless
> reprinted with  FULL context.     Of course Roger is unaware of that fact!
>
> M.G.
>
> Roger Alexander wrote:
>
> > Friends,
> >
> > I came across the following interesting and fully-referenced quotations
> > by Albert Einstein.  They might be useful in some discussions.
> >
> > Raja
> >
> > 1.
> > Should we be unable to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts
> > with the Arabs, then we have learned absolutely nothing during our 2,000
> > years of suffering and deserve all that will come to us.
> >
> >        Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): letter to
> > Chaim Weizmann, Nov. 25, 1929
> > -----------------------------------
> > 2.
> > I believe firmly that the Jews, considering the smallness and dependency
> > of their colony in Palestine, are not threatened by the folly of power.
> >
> >        Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): letter to
> > Maurice Solovine, Mar. 16, 1921, in Albert Einstein: Letters to Solovine
> > [1987] tr. W. Baskin
> > -----------------------------------
> > 3.
> > I should much rather see reasonable agreement with the Arabs on the
> > basis of living together in peace than the creation of a Jewish state.
> > Apart from practical consideration, my awareness of the essential nature
> > of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and
> > a measure of temporal power no matter how modest.  I am afraid of the
> > inner damage Judaism will sustain ? especially from the development of a
> > narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already
> > had to fight strongly.
> >
> >        Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): "Our Debt
> > to Zionism," speech before the National Labor Committee for Palestine,
> > New York, Apr. 17, 1938 (repr. in Out of My Later Years [1950] ch.52)
> > -----------------------------------
> > 4.
> > No one has the moral right to call himself a Christian or a Jew if he is
> > prepared to commit murder upon the instruction of a given authority, or
> > if he permits himself to be used for the purpose of initiating or
> > preparing such a crime in any way whatsoever.
> >
> >        Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): writing
> > in 1928, per Banesh Hoffmann, Albert Einstein: Creator and Rebel [1972]
> > ix
> > -----------------------------------
> > 5.
> > The world is a dangerous place to live in not because of those who do
> > evil but because of those who watch and let it happen.
> >
> >        Albert Einstein (German-born Am. physicist, 1879-1955): quoted in
> > Time magazine, "Terror and Pity", Sep. 2, 1996
> >  -----------------------------------



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 15:29:38 EST 2001
Article: 260195 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB55BE3.70AAA8C3@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: USS Liberty, never forget By Anayat Durrani
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 129
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 19:07:47 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.108
X-Trace: news1.atl 984963933 66.20.148.108 (Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:05:33 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 20:05:33 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176579 soc.culture.israel:330601 soc.culture.usa:609844 soc.culture.canada:260195 soc.culture.british:556551

USS Liberty, never forget By Anayat Durrani


On June 8, 1967, on the fourth day of Israel's attack on
neighboring Arab countries, an American intelligence ship called
the USS Liberty with 294 men aboard incurred an all-out assault
by Israeli aircraft and motor torpedo boats.

The unprovoked air and sea attack would last 75 minutes. After
the smoke cleared, the severely damaged USS Liberty emerged
with 34 dead crewmen and 171 wounded. The ship would
miraculously remain afloat despite taking over 821 rocket,
cannon and machine-gun holes.

The story of the USS Liberty is a tragic one. It is a tragedy not
only for the events that befell the brave crew of the USS Liberty
that fateful day but also because of the controversy that has
surrounded this incident for nearly 34 years.

The attack was met immediately with denial and covered up by
Israel and the United States. The Israelis called it a "tragic
case of misidentification," claiming they mistook the USS Liberty
for an out-of-service Egyptian horse carrier called El Quseir. The
American government accepted the Israeli excuse saying it was
an accident, despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

Survivors and many former top US officials like Secretary of State
Dean Rusk and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of State Admiral
Thomas Moorer said it was a carefully orchestrated and
deliberate attack by Israel against an American ship. Yet, the
United States has denied the USS Liberty a congressional
investigation. The ship remains the only major maritime incident
in US history that has not received a public investigation by the
US Congress.

"They fear the Israeli and Jewish reactions. Also, I think that
there is so much pro-Israel propaganda that many American
Jews really believe that the attack was a tragic accident and that
any attention to this story comes from anti-Semites. That claim
alone is enough to stifle discussion," says Ennes who was
officer-of-the-deck on the bridge the day of the attack.

In his book, Assault on the Liberty, Ennes explained that before
the attack he witnessed more than 6 hours of surveillance by
Israeli aircraft that circled the USS Liberty thirteen times;
sometimes close enough that they "exchanged friendly waves."
The USS Liberty was on a peaceful mission in the area, a safe
distance from the fighting, in international waters off the Sinai
Peninsula in the Mediterranean Sea. The ship was clearly
identified by Israel as a US intelligence ship and officers even
heard Israelis recognize the ship as American on their radio
frequencies. The ship also had an American flag hoisted high
above it.

The remaining survivors of the USS Liberty continue to
courageously tell their story amidst claims that the survivors are
liars, anti-Semitic, and anti-Israeli. To this day, Israel insists
the incident was an "innocent mistake". However, there is
evidence gathered by intelligence analysts and others that
supports the charge that Israel deliberately attacked the
intelligence ship to prevent it from monitoring Israeli plans to
invade the Golan Heights the following day.

"Thirty four of our shipmates were killed and their killers still
give a false account of what happened. Israel did apologize and
paid damages, but they continue to lie. We just want them to
stop lying," says Ennes. "Our 34 dead shipmates are entitled
to the truth being in the historical record."

Joe Meadors was a signalman on the bridge of the USS Liberty
that day. When the ship's regular size American flag was shot
down, Meadors and another crewman immediately replaced it
with an even larger American flag. But the attack continued.
Meadors remembers when he first discovered the identity of their
attackers.

"I didn't know the attackers were Israeli until I saw the Israeli
flag flying from one of the torpedo boats that I saw from a
distance of about 100 yards as it sailed slowly up our port left
side," says Meadors.

Many questions remain unanswered. During the attack, the
White House blocked air rescue for over 90 minutes until Navy
jet aircraft were ordered in at which time the Israelis ceased their
attack and withdrew. The US Sixth Fleet was less than 300 miles
away during the attack but did not come to the aid of the USS
Liberty, despite guarantees that air support would be provided
within ten minutes if help were needed. It would take more than
16 hours before the first American forces reached the USS
Liberty.

"The question of why it took more than 16 hours for the Sixth
Fleet to come to our assistance is one that we have been trying
to get answered for many years," says Meadors.

Because the attack was never investigated, Meadors says it is
premature to say whose decision it was to attack the ship. But
there is evidence pointing to who ordered the attack. "We do
have a CIA document that was prepared as a result of receiving
information from an informant in the Israeli War Room who tells
us that Moshe Dayan personally ordered the attack," says
Meadors.

Though the United States has released thousands of
documents on the USS Liberty, Ennes says they have still not
released all. "They claim that some documents we seek cannot
be identified.  In other cases the government claims that release
of certain documents would `embarrass an ally'."

Yet the survivors have forged on, determined to show that truth
will ultimately stand the test of time. With the establishment of
the USS Liberty Veterans Association in 1982 and a website
created as a memorial to the USS Liberty, they have publicized
the true story of the USS Liberty in hopes of keeping it alive in the
public conscience. The surviving crewman say they will never get
closure until they receive a congressional investigation and
acknowledgement from Israel that the attack was in fact
deliberate.

"All we want is the truth to be told after a complete and
comprehensive public Congressional investigation that routinely
follows an incident of this kind. Nothing more and certainly
nothing less," says Meadors.


Arabia on Line © 2000 all rights reserved
The story was published on March 18, 2001




From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 15:29:38 EST 2001
Article: 260236 of soc.culture.canada
Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AB61E19.AAD784C2@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british
Subject: Israeli Army Attacks Peaceful =?iso-8859-1?Q?Women=92s?= Protest
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Lines: 45
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 08:56:25 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.108
X-Trace: news2.atl 985013640 66.20.148.108 (Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:54:00 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 09:54:00 EST
Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:176635 soc.culture.israel:330685 soc.culture.usa:609978 soc.culture.canada:260236 soc.culture.british:556632

Israeli Army Attacks Peaceful Women’s Protest

Today at 12:00 p.m, Israeli soldiers at Al Ram checkpoint fired tear gas

canisters and sound bombs directly at Palestinians participating in a
peaceful women’s march. Women were also beaten with the butts of rifles
by
the soldiers. 15 women have been transported to nearby hospitals.

The march was organized by the Union of Palestinian Women’s Committees
to
protest the continued Israeli imposed closure and siege on the Occupied
Palestinian Territories.  Eyewitnesses report that the march from
Ramallah
to Al Ram checkpoint was completely peaceful from the Palestinian side,
with
not a single stone thrown.

On the phone from Al Ram, Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi, President of the Union
of
Palestinian Medical Relief Committees (UPMRC) said, “This incident is
proof
that even peaceful protests organized by women are encountered by the
viciousness of the Israeli army”.  The UPMRC first aid team was on site
and
delivered emergency treatment to the injured.  Sunna Qaud and Moammar
Orabi,
both UPMRC first aid workers were both hit in the head by sound bombs
and
Dr. Barghouthi was hit in the leg with a tear gas canister.

The list of injured includes, but is not limited to:
Vivian Aliat Hanneh, 37 years old who sustained four injuries in both
legs
Pascal Zambarano, Member of the Italian Ministry of Cooperation
Ghaleb Muhammad Hamayil, 8 years old
Leila Ahmed Odeh Abu Nijim, 45 years old
Imad Hafez Ghosheh, 42 years old
Munira Rujdi Zuraikqi, an actress, 37 years old

For more information call Mustafa Barghouthi at 050-254-218
Visit www.palestinemonitor.org





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Mon Mar 19 15:30:32 EST 2001
Article: 533817 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail
Message-ID: <3AAEE92D.92041EB2@bellsouth.net>
From: Roger Alexander 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.palestine,israel.lists.il-talk,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,alt.culture.arab-league
Subject: Re: #Zionist Fuhrer risks Jewish lives!!!!!
References: <340f6f6e.1200310@news.erols.com> <3410F277.40F3@cc.huji.ac.il> <3412c360.3971293@news.erols.com> <3aaecaa7.23349775@news.rcn.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Lines: 170
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:44:46 -0600
NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.228
X-Trace: news1.atl 984541372 208.63.207.228 (Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:42:52 EST)
NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:42:52 EST
Xref: hub.org soc.culture.arabic:63574 soc.culture.palestine:113688 israel.lists.il-talk:5609 talk.politics.mideast:175992 soc.culture.jewish:533817 alt.culture.arab-league:5049

This post, unlike the rabid rant of Michael Medved against Mr. Goldman,
is fairly rational and deserves a reply.
Judaism in toto amounts to a group strategy for survival and success.
Its tenets require a considerable separation from the larger society
in which the group finds itself.  This inward turning always has the potential
for turning from real world rationality into ethnic paranoia.  This appears
to have happened in the case of Zionism.  I use the analysis commonly
associated with cults when I speak about it.  But since the group is large,
and some of the traits of a cult are absent, cult analysis leaves something
wanting.
Cult language, though, is useful.  Here a member of the Zionist cult
tries to use the Judaic traits of ingroup solidarity to shame a member
of Judaism not already swept up in the cult.  He is, of course, doomed to fail,
but he knows that.  What he is actually doing is trying to reinforce
the group identity of Jews who might read David Goldman's post,
and to say to them that he is outside the group.  Goldman, on the other hand,
is asserting that he is a member of the Judaic group, and _all_ Zionists
are not.  The Zionists cannot bear to be so treated.
RLA

Alegro wrote:

> David, let me make it succinct and simple. You are lost in the wilderness of
> your disconnected mind. You are alone, David, in your rantings about
> "Zionism." Your only support comes from admitted Jew-haters, both Arab and
> Gentile.
> You are an insignificant speck of dust on the coats of your fellow Jews.
> No one pays you attention when you live. No one will remember you when you
> die. No one will say Kaddissh for you, David.
> No one.
> (Come back, David, while there is still time for you to rejoin the Jewish
> people. Please...)
>
> "David Goldman"  wrote in message
> news:3aaecaa7.23349775@news.rcn.com...
> > Here is what is going on. Succinct and simple. The Zionist idolatrous
> > gangsters DON'T CARE HOW MANY JEWS ARE HARMED BECAUSE OF THEIR NAZI
> > BEHAVIOR TOWARD THE PALESTINIANS!! JEWS, WAKE UP! END THE ZIONIST
> > OCCUPATION OF YOUR MINDS AND HEARTS!! The Zionist leaders are demons!
> > They are emissaries from Satan himself! They rejoice in the deaths of
> > Jews! Flee the satanic force of the Zionist State! Restore the rights
> > of the Palestinians in their country! Let them live freely in
> > Palestine!
> >
> > >Arafat aide warns of more terror if
> > >            blockade is not lifted
> > >            By Lamia Lahoud and Margot Dudkevitch
> >
> > >            JERUSALEM (March 14) - While the IDF slightly
> > >            eased its blockade of Ramallah yesterday, Fatah
> > >            leaders declared today another "day of rage" and a
> > >            senior adviser to Palestinian Authority Chairman
> > >            Yasser Arafat warned the government that unless it
> > >            lifts the "siege" by this Saturday, "Israelis will not
> > >            be safe anywhere in Israel."
> >
> > >            Senior PLO and PNC official Bassam Abu Sharif
> > >            said if the blockade is not lifted by Saturday,
> > >            Israelis should stay away from cafes, restaurants,
> > >            bus stops, and other public places.
> >
> > >            "I am for peace. I don't want Israelis to die," Abu
> > >            Sharif told The Jerusalem Post in a telephone
> > >            interview from Amman. "Therefore, I advise Mr.
> > >            Sharon to lift the siege... People are suicidal; no
> > >            one can stand the arrogance of Israeli soldiers
> > >            anymore."
> >
> > >            He said his warning was based on intelligence
> > >            reports that individuals are ready to commit suicide
> > >            attacks and are preparing to carry out a wave of
> > >            such attacks everywhere in the center of Israel
> > >            where Israelis feels safe.
> >
> > >            Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has said the blockade
> > >            is aimed at thwarting terrorist attacks and is not
> > >            collective punishment against the Palestinians.
> >
> > >            Abu Sharif called on the Sharon government to lift
> > >            the blockade before March 17, but would not say
> > >            why he specified this date.
> >
> > >            "It is not the PA," he said. "Individuals are ready to
> > >            blow themselves up."
> >
> > >            Palestinian officials also said that extremists are
> > >            gaining influence and are getting more and more
> > >            support for terror attacks inside Israel. "More and
> > >            more Palestinians want the Israelis to suffer," he
> > >            said.
> >
> > >            Fatah and other Palestinian factions which comprise
> > >            the intifada leadership have called for a "day of
> > >            rage" today to protest the closure. Palestinian
> > >            sources said they expect bloody riots today, since
> > >            the Palestinians will try to break through the army
> > >            barricades.
> >
> > >            However, West Bank Fatah leader Marwan
> > >            Barghouti said the demonstrations will be peaceful
> > >            marches to the barricades, as on Monday when
> > >            Palestinians tried to remove the checkpoints.
> > >            Barghouti admitted that the peaceful demonstrations
> > >            were far more effective and were bringing people
> > >            into the street who never participated in the uprising
> > >            before. "These people are participating now in the
> > >            demonstrations... they feel the siege ever since the
> > >            IDF closed off Ramallah," he explained.
> >
> > >            Barghouti said the whole world is trying to
> > >            convince Israel to lift the blockade of Ramallah,
> > >            and ease the economic restrictions. But he ruled out
> > >            any trade-off on the basis of "security for bread."
> >
> > >            "Sharon must understand that the Palestinians insist
> > >            on security [in exchange] for independence," he
> > >            said.
> >
> > >            Palestinian officials said that was the reason Arab
> > >            foreign ministers had agreed to a Palestinian
> > >            request to pay the $1.3 billion pledged for the
> > >            uprising in monthly payments of $40 million.
> >
> > >            A senior army official said yesterday that the PA is
> > >            not interested in quelling the violence, as Arafat is
> > >            hoping to gain international support by continuing to
> > >            portray the Palestinian people as victims of Israeli
> > >            aggression in order to receive financial support in
> > >            the upcoming Arab summit in Amman. He added
> > >            that Arafat also hopes to persuade the United
> > >            Nations to dispatch a multinational force to the
> > >            area.
> >
> > >            The IDF is prepared for a long-term confrontation
> > >            with the Palestinians, and has not ruled out the
> > >            possibility of an escalation in terrorist activities
> > >            with more shooting incidents on the roads and
> > >            attempts to perpetrate large-scale attacks, a senior
> > >            army source said yesterday. While there has been a
> > >            decrease in the number of shooting incidents in
> > >            recent days, the violence has not come to a
> > >            complete halt at any time since it broke out last
> > >            October, he said.
> >
> > >            According to the official, the Palestinians appear to
> > >            have no shortage of weapons and ammunition. The
> > >            majority of attacks against Israeli targets were not
> > >            carried out with weapons Israel handed over to the
> > >            PA, he noted, adding that as in the Gaza Strip, many
> > >            of the attacks perpetrated in the West Bank were
> > >            similar to those carried out by Hizbullah.
> >
> > >            Meanwhile, the IDF has increased morning and
> > >            afternoon patrols on the Judea and Samaria roads
> > >            used by Jewish residents.
> >
> > >            Since October, there have been 115 bombing
> > >            incidents in the West Bank that killed eight Israelis
> > >            and injured 185, along with 2,257 shooting
> > >            incidents, compared to some 4,000 such incidents in
> > >            Gaza. In preparation for a possible long-term
> > >            confrontation, the IDF is boosting defense measures
> > >            in the Jewish communities of Judea and Samaria,
> > >            and plans to introduce electronic devices,
> > >            watchtowers, and other means.
> >
> > >            In addition, the army has purchased 1,000 flak
> > >            jackets it is distributing to regional councils, and is
> > >            assisting in bulletproofing vehicles.




Home ·  Site Map ·  What's New? ·  Search Nizkor

© The Nizkor Project, 1991-2012

This site is intended for educational purposes to teach about the Holocaust and to combat hatred. Any statements or excerpts found on this site are for educational purposes only.

As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.