From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  1 08:24:14 PDT 1996
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Posted-Date: 31 May 1996 19:10:51 -0400
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Date: Fri, 31 May 96 23:18:16 GMT
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Subject: Re: Where do militias sta
Lines: 11


In article <833565711$8034@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>
>  From what I can tell they love the war on drugs, believing  
>drugs to be part of some communist conspiracy. That belief 
>has been part of the hard-right since at least the 50's.

you might try checking one of the libertarian party web sites,
frankie...you might be surprised by some of what you learn.


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  1 08:24:15 PDT 1996
Article: 20560 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 22:18:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 20


In article <833565587$7804@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>   So the statements made by Charles Scott on the CBC were lies?
>Why would Aryan of the Year 1995 lie to the national media in order 
>to associate McVeigh with a militia? That would be working against
>the movement, no?

frankie - it works against *us* but not against the c.i./neo-nazidiot
types who would very much like to take over the movement...the more that
they can discredit the mainstream Constitutional Militias, the more they
will utilize their recruiting tactic of pulling people into their camps by
telling them ' oh come on, there isn't that much difference'...it hasn't
worked that well for them so far, but that is one of the primary reasons
some of us are pushing so hard to get the last of the racist elements out
of the movement...only when we can have an absolutely clear delineation
will their lies be neutralized.

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 22:33:12 GMT
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Subject: Re: Maybe as Arlin says it is in the air...er, water ... er...
Lines: 11


In article <833565309$7349@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Indeed, with the opinion some folks have of politicians, many of whom
hang
>out in polluted cities and are considered to be "rats,"  if nothing else
>the relationship may be good for a chuckle. 

not to over react, but maybe that filtering water pitcher I've been
looking at in the supermarket might not be such a bad idea after all...


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  1 08:24:16 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 23:03:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: Flagpoles
Lines: 10


In article <833565243$7245@atype.com>, whit@cs.utexas.edu (John W. Engel)
writes:

>This move should save the federal gov't. many miles of line, 
>and will prevent employees who havn't gotton word of the latest
>Arkancide from positioning the flag improperly...

oh man, I can hardly wait to see the bids - yep 500 bucks a piece for
these here custom jobs, just for the gummint, ayep...  :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  1 08:24:17 PDT 1996
Article: 20567 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 96 8:18:06 GMT
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Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right to Own Guns????
Lines: 14


In article <833595484$10242@atype.com>, tlknapp@earthlink.net (Thomas L.
Knapp) writes:

>
>Those who are benighted enough to accept irrational explanations for 
>existence (such as deity) attempt to explain natural rights within the 
>context of their myths.

y'know Tom, I'm sure this has been pointed out before, but if you avoided
taking gratuitous swipes at peoples' spirituality, you might find it a bit
easier to work with people...just a thought....

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  1 08:24:18 PDT 1996
Article: 20580 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 96 10:33:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right to Own Guns????
Lines: 20


In article <833565071$7011@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>What was that, the Eleventh Commandmant:  Thou Shalt Hie Thee Hither To a
Gun
>
>Shop and Purchase a Mac-10.

It works like this:

There are natural, Divinely granted Rights to Life and Liberty.  Since
Rights must always be defended against those evil persons who would usurp
them, it is inherent upon us to make an adiquate defense.  The tools of
our defense are, therefore, both our right and our responsibility.

simple enough, really.
Arlin H. Adams



From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  1 08:24:18 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 96 10:33:19 GMT
Message-ID: <833625199$11159@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Communist bankers?
Lines: 16


In article <833565515$7683@atype.com>, moo@midtown.net (Bryan Cowan)
writes:

> My point is that *banker* and *communist* are
>contradictory terms and cannot be put together, either one is a banker or
>a communist. So a totalitarian system run by a private cabal of bankers
>would resemble Nazi Germany more than the Soviet Union.

Hi Bryan,

ah, there you go applying logic and common sense again! :-)  If you REALLY
want to get him riled up, ask him how many Japanese bankers are Jewish!

Best
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sun Jun  2 12:42:18 PDT 1996
Article: 20630 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 96 14:33:13 GMT
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Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there's
Lines: 31


In article <833565631$7915@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>In any event, I will also pass along to you this fact.  There are *no*
>rights, unalienable, fundamental or otherwise, which cannot lawfully
>be taken away by the state, provided that the person whose rights are
>being taken has first been given "due process."  Yes, that even
>includes the holy RKBA.  (Sacrilege!!)

Good Morning Michael,

What you've just cited (not just RKBA) but the whole issue of unalienable
rights, is probably one of the core differences in philosophical belief
between the militias, as represented in this discussion by Robert and
Richard, and the statists, as represented by you.  The problem here, is
that I don't think the term 'right' has the same meaning on both sides of
the coin.  To us,  a 'natural (or inalienable)  right' is something which
is inherent in the individual and may not be curtailed by anyone, other
than that individual.  Any external element attempting to *force* such
curtailment is inherently hostile and attempting to exert a false
authority.  Such rights are considered by us to be absolute.

Now my perception of your use of the word 'right' is probably closer to
what I would define as a social privilege - something which a group
*allows* an individual to do as a member of that group.  Is that an
accurate assessment of your position?  If so, do you see any possible
means of peaceful coexistance between two groups of people with such
radically different views on this issue?

Arlin Adams


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Date: Sat, 1 Jun 96 14:33:20 GMT
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Subject: Re: Court Enroute to Mont
Lines: 36


well, frankie, you got it half right - which considering your batting
average lately, ain't all that bad...

In article <833607221$10718@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:
> IMO the chances are better than 50% that some act of domestic 
>terrorism will take place at the Olympics. Apparently the
>government is  fearful enough to have a nearby nuclear plant shut
>down for the year.

indeed.  whoever is actively attempting to force open confrontation
between the fedgov and the militias will be given an almost irresistable
target by the Olympics.  Since whoever they are discovered that their OKC
idiocy didn't work out as planned, I'd expect them to try something even
more spectacular this time around.


>  It's about what the Olympics represents, and its origins, coming from
>Greek Pagan society that worshipped young naked boys. Now it's
>got its affiliations with the UN and represents all that New
>World Order crapola. In other words, it's more than a convenient
>target, it's a preferred target.

see, now this is where your unreasoned paranoia creeps in.  I'm sure your
therapist has talked to you about this.  The real reason that the Olympics
will make a tempting target to these folks has nothing to do with abstract
symbolism, but with media reality - the media from most of the participant
nations will be on site, and coverage of any such attack will almost
certainly be a world-wide media event.  Whoever the morons are who wish to
force open confrontation between us and the fedgov, we can be sure that
they want to maximize the political pressure that their actions will
generate, and this would be the most efficient way for them to do so. 
It's just that simple.

Arlin H. Adams


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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 6:48:13 GMT
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Subject: Re: Where do militias sta
Lines: 18


In article <833671085$13002@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>But if
>some militias are so libertarian why don't they march on
>Washington in support of repealing prohibition? After all,
>prohibition is the main  reason there's gun control in America.

uh, in case you hadn't noticed, frankie, we Libertarians tend to be in the
minority EVERYWHERE...now if you can find some way to sell the link
between drug prohibition and gun control to the populists, (we sure
haven't) *then* maybe you'd see some policy changes.  In no case, however,
will you see a march on Washington.  We're *defensive* *local*
organizations, that's our entire orientation.  Plus just think of the
wonderful opportunities such a march would give for the engineering of
incidents by any number of factions...nope, no march, ain't gonna happen,
wouldn't be prudent...:-)


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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 8:33:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Where do militias sta
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In article <833671113$13050@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>Why? Libertarians are antifacist anti-prohibitionists.

yes, that's true, we are.

>Libertarians are not typical of the rightwing, being ultraliberal
>not arch-conservative like most in the far-right.

uh, well, there you're stuck in that two dimensional matrix again, which
is something that we Libertarians don't function by - remember we are also
free market capitalists, anti-big government, with an emphasis on
individual rights and responsibilities.  As such we are not *ever* welcome
in the ultraliberal camp.  The reality is that we can at least work with
the populists, while the left, by and large, wont even give us  the time
of day....


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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 3:03:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Socialist Identity (Was Christian Identity)
Lines: 7


In article <833658491$12609@atype.com>, garyn@tir.com (Gary Newberry)
writes:

>Maybe you should arm yourself against the average U.S. citizen.

uh, Gary, we are average citizens.  


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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 3:33:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 24


In article <833671092$13018@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

> One mans nazidiot is another mans Christian Patriot.

interesting, even as a libertarian, I can tell the difference between
conservative Christians, and c.i. types...are you saying that from where
you stand you can perceive no differences?


>
>  a> ..the more that
>a> they can discredit the mainstream Constitutional Militias, the
>a> more they will utilize their recruiting tactic of pulling people
>a> into their camps by telling them ' oh come on, there isn't that
>a> much difference'...
>
>  Hah ha!! Now THAT'S a conspiracy theory I've never heard before.

not a theory, frankie, I've seen them do it...largely unsuccessfully, so
far, but that doesn't mean they've stopped trying...
 



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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 2:33:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right to Own Guns????
Lines: 14


In article <833650414$12178@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>You're sitting at home and a deranged criminal breaks in, intent on
>doing you and your family bodily harm.  Would it cause you more
>concern if he was carrying a hammer or a saw or a machine gun?

wouldn't much matter, as soon as he enters my home, I have no requirement
to retreat, which means he takes at least two glasers in the pelvis.  end
of discussion.  Uh, Michael, have you ever had any self-defense training? 
Just wondering.

Arlin


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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:18:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right to Own Guns????
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In article <833699028$14304@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>I have never taken a "self-defense" class or anything.  But when I
>bought my guns I joined a local gun club and was thoroughly trained in
>their proper and effective use.

okay, I think I'm beginning to see.  First off, as a certified firearms
instructor, I'd like to commend you for seeking training.  (and since I do
my instructing as a volunteer for a non-profit organization, I don't think
I can be accused of trying to drum up business with that comment :-)) 
Now, just taking handguns as an example, we do two different basic
courses:  The first, Basic Pistol, is a course on safe effective use of a
handgun in a range situation.  The other course is called Personal
Protection, it too is a course on safe and effective handling, but with
additional training on self-defense tactics, as well as on the legal
requirements for use of deadly force in self-defense situations.

Obviously, the second course is somewhat longer, but even more than that,
I'd say that the primary difference is one of attitude.  By that I don't
mean the pseudo-John-Wayne "well pilgrim..." sort of thing...if somebody
shows up exhibiting signs of an overdose of macho, he (it's almost always
guys that have this problem) most likely will not make it through the
course.  Rather, there is a significant difference in mindset between
going to the range and punching holes in paper (or for that matter going
hunting) and that required to successfully defend one's self.  

Entire books have been written on the psychology of self-defense, but if I
had to generalize, I'd say that it boils down to one decision.  That
decision might be characterized by being able to answer the question: "Am
I willing to do *whatever it takes* to survive an encounter with someone
threatening my life and/or the lives of my family?"  This is a choice one
makes, or at least should make, at some point *prior* to a potentially
lethal encounter.  Of interest to me are the number of folks who show up
for class never even having considered this possibility...it would seem
that there are large segments of our society in which the concept of
self-defense is per se a forbidden topic.  I don't know if that's true or
not, just an observation.  In any case the bottom line is that a person
must decide whether, if all else fails, they are willing to take a human
life in order to preserve their own safety.

Certainly there are people who simply are not capable of such an action,
and many more who choose not to do so either because of ethical dillemas,
or  because they do not wish to accept responsibility for the potential
results of such an action.  None the less, there are also many people who
can, and do choose to consider the use of lethal force as an option.  For
those of us who fall in the latter category the consideration no longer
revolves around attempting to make it illegal to own certain types of
firearms, since in reality we have no real control over how an attacker
might be armed,  but rather to insure that, no matter *what* an attacker
might be armed with, we are trained, prepared, and have the tools at hand
to stop them.

Arlin Adams



From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun  3 11:02:14 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <833752084$16088@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there's
Lines: 129


Hi Michael,

 I need to be clear, from the beginning, that I am going to be addressing
these issues from a libertarian perspective.  Because of this, the views
expressed here will be somewhat different from the mainstream
Constitutionalists, conservative Christians, and other parts of the
movement.  Secondly, I feel that I need to reassure you that I am not
being intentionally dense with my questions.  Rather, I am trying to move
toward addressing some of the first causes of the conflict in which we
find ourselves.  In doing so, it seems that we are often using words which
do not hold the same meaning for both of us.  Therefore, in order to
accurately comprehend our respective positions I find it neccessary both
to define some terms as I understand them, and ask for further explanation
of your interpretation as well.

In article <833699006$14272@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:
>Man, however, has only been "civilized" for
>about the last 5000 to 6000 years.  So man, though still evolving, is
>essentially an uncivilized animal.

Hmm, from a libertarian perspective, the development of social groups is
not inherently evolutionary.  Rather, legitimate groups arise out of the
conscious choices of the members, based on enlightened self-interest. 
[enlightened self-interest might be characterized as the libertarian
equivalent of the 'Golden Rule']  Illegitimate groups may arise through
the coercion (conquest, tyrannical legal structures, etc) but in so far as
these groups are not entirely voluntary and do not fulfill the
requirements for a valid contract (freely chosen, exchange of value,
limited duration, terms enforcable on all contracting parties) they are
not legitimate and derive their structure and content solely from
illegitimate (offensive/agressive) use of mental, emotional, and/or
physical coercion.  And yes, by that definition, most civilizations have
historically been illegitimate social groups.

Now it appears that you consider the development of social groups, and on
a larger scale, the long term development of civilizations to be an
evolutionary process - is that an accurate deduction on my part?  Also, if
that *is* your position, do you differentiate between legitimate and
illegitimate groups/civilizations?  if so, how?


> I will call them "inherent"
>rather than "unalienable" because, as I discuss in prior posts, the
>word "unalienable" has very little to do with the degree to which a
>thing can be infringed.

Okay, 'inherent' works just as well for me.  I was simply using
'inalienable' as a bridge from the previous posts on the topic.  (FYI:
Jefferson and Adams had a major argument over the  'in' vs 'un' prefix, at
the time the Declaration was written. :-))

>In other words, man had the *absolute* right, if not the duty, to
>defend himself, his family, his loved ones and their property from
>intrusion by beast or man by *any* means necessary.  In those days,
>stealing a man's meal or trespassing his territory could properly be
>capital offenses.  So again, in man's *natural* state his inherent
>rights are absolute and uninfringible.

agreed.

> We choose to live in this unnatural state because,

Is your perception then, that all social groups are inherently unnatural? 
If there are both natural *and* unnatural social groups, what would
differentiate between the two?

> though it is against the instincts of our baser nature, 

This would appear to imply that existance in a natural state is of less
inherent value than existance within a social group; or am I reading
something into this?

>we understand that civilized living has much to offer. 

certainly legitimate social groups have much to offer.  Even illegitimate
social groups may benefit those whose use of coercion causes the group to
be formed or maintained; but in the latter case, can the majority of the
members honestly be said to derive sufficient benefit?

>However, with civilization's considerable advantages there come a
>number of disadvantages for inherently uncivilized creatures living in
>a civilized society.  Chief among these disadvantages are what are
>called laws.  What, in essence, are laws really?  They are little more
>than a collection of rules which prohibit men from acting as they have
>been taught by nature over the past 100,000 years.  You know, stuff
>like you can't kill a man for stealing you hamburger anymore. ;)

What then is a just law?  In libertarian terms, a just law would be the
enforcement criteria of a valid contract.  As such, unless the contract
was legitimate (see above) any attempt at enforcement would not be
legitimate either.   I guess I need to know how you would define the
difference between legitimate (just) and illegitimate (unjust) laws.  In
your estimation, from what basis do laws derive their just authority?

>So when you say that an "external element attempting to force such
>curtailment is inherently hostile and attempting to exert a false
>authority," I say that you are wrong *when* you choose to live the
>civilized life.  Civilization may be an unnatural authority, but when
>you choose the civilized life you take that unnatural authority and
>make it yours.  In that instant, the authority of civilization loses
>its falsehood.

This would seem to imply that all civilizations, as you see them, are
inherently coercive.  Is that an accurate restatement of your position?


>Only if those of you who insist on maintaining your absolute inherent
>natural rights choose to leave civilization behind and take those
>rights with you.  Otherwise, you who hold such beliefs must come to
>grips with the fact that your rights, like those of *every* civilized
>man, are subject to some infringement by civilization.  Should you
>choose not to realize and accept this fact, then I'm afraid that
>civilization will eventually have to convince you, by any means
>necessary.  Should it come to that, it will indeed be a sad day for
>all involved.

Is there then, in your view of civilization, any means whereby such one
social group could simply choose to leave another alone?  In your view, is
civilization inherently hegemonic (not sure if that's a word, but it fits)
in nature?

and most critcally: have we managed to put the entire rest of the
newsgroup to sleep with our debate? :-)

Arlin

Remember the Alamo


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun  3 11:02:15 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 10:33:18 GMT
Message-ID: <833711598$14856@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 105 mm howitzers
Lines: 17


In article <833678317$13612@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>How often did that get used, though? Again (and I'm no expert) it looks
to
>me like manuvering the plane would be a bear with a 105 going off on the
>left side.

actually, it's relatively stable...shock absorbers and reinforcement like
you wouldn't believe...the problem is with bore evacuation - when the
burnt powder remnants and smoke come out the breach during the reloading
process.  Now when you fire artillery outside, the stuff just disperses,
but guess where it goes in the aircraft..that's right - in the
aircraft...understand that it can get a bit cloudy in there after 3 or 4
rounds...and everybody goes home looking like they just did twelve hours
in a coal mine...


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun  3 11:02:16 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 10:33:25 GMT
Message-ID: <833711605$14872@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Freemen Vocabulary test
Lines: 9


In article <833654884$12382@atype.com>, e142857@teleport.com (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>So, exactly what IS the Media-Midget message?

oh heck, Walt, that's easy!  "Buy tacos, toiletpaper, and Toyotas"....in
fact, just buy whatever they show you - otherwise they'll lose their
sponsors, and wont have jobs anymore....


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed Jun  5 09:32:14 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 1:48:36 GMT
Message-ID: <833939316$25029@atype.com>
Subject: Re: So Cal Patriot Gp sks members
Lines: 8


In article <833923084$24411@atype.com>, bogart1@earthlink.net (Gen. J.C.
Christian) writes:

>It's those God damned illuminati and space aliens.

so, tim, just how long *have* you been seeing these illuminated space
aliens?


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed Jun  5 09:32:16 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 5:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <833952785$25609@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Can an unarmed person be a patriot?
Lines: 18


In article <833940183$25056@atype.com>, stebet@primenet.com (stebet)
writes:

>What is a pacifist, I think there are other names for it.

Hi Steve,

well, let's see, most of the pacifists who were here at the time of the
American Revolution were of a religious nature.  Quakers, were probably
the largest group, although I understand that both the Baptists and the
Calvinists have, at various times, included those who held that they could
not support the use of violence...now certainly these people stood up for
their rights; although at least in the case of the Quakers, they would
stand up and die for their right *not* to violate their religious beliefs.

Best
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun  6 10:18:34 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 14:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <833984283$26566@atype.com>
Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right to Own Guns????
Lines: 42


Hi Michael,

>Um, so how do you explain Japan's phenominal technological and
>economic advances over the past 50 years?  

hmm, well first off, Japan is an intensely mono-cultural society, with an
orientation based on the group, rather than the individual, in other
words, it is in many many ways the polar opposite of the multicultural
individualist society we have here in the U.S.  This makes direct
comparisons between the two rather difficult to quantify.  Further, as we
can see from other mono-cultural societies, it is much easier, when
everyone is operating on the same baseline ethics, goals, and philosophy,
to achieve agreement on the issues.  Because of this, monocultural
societys tend to have less internal conflict - obviously the overall crime
rate in Japan is a fraction of what it is in the United States.  This, in
turn, over time, leads citizens of such societies to have less concern for
their personal safety - they can, to a certain extent, relax and drop
their guard a bit.  None of these things are true in modern American
society...oh, and by the way, if one looks closely, one will see that in
many ways Japan is a totallitarian state...just one in which such laws are
accepted, rather than resisted, by a majority of the populace.

>Your theory also seems to
>be contradicted by several nations today where gun control is the
>order of the day (England, Canada, Germany...)

Again, England and Germany, up until the *very* recent past (say last
10-15 years) have been largely monocultural societies, and as I noted
above, reflect a vastly different set of circumstances than the U.S.  In
addition, if one questions the belief that relaxing individual vigilance
inevitably results in totalitarian government, one need only look to Great
Britain's most recent anti-terrorism legislation to see the further
errosion of civil rights in that country.  Canada too has been a largely
mono (as in Western European based) or perhaps more accurately bi-cultural
society, thus not meeting the criteria for comparison with the U.S. 
Further, up until about 10 years ago, their gun control laws were not much
different from ours...thus we can't really see much of where the changes
will take them yet...although my understanding is that there is a
resistance movement forming in that country as well.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun  6 10:18:36 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 21:33:39 GMT
Message-ID: <834010419$28902@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Freemen and Probable Cause
Lines: 10


In article <833996885$28150@atype.com>, Kaa Byington
 writes:

>If the Freeman are Illegal Aliens, the answer is deportation, but since 
>they are not citizens of any other country, what country would take them?
>They have nasty habits. 

Good point, Kaa!  How about Serbia - some of those folks have some rather
interesting habits, as well...they might fit right in! :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun  6 10:18:37 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 21:34:00 GMT
Message-ID: <834010440$28934@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 22


In article <833997800$28287@atype.com>, mamacamp@aol.com (MamaCamp)
writes:

>witness the fiasco in CA a few years ago when they
>adopted "whole-language" as the standard for the entire state. Do you
>enjoy keeping children ignorant so that they will not be able to learn
the
>truth for themselves?

Hi Joyce,

just to stay off topic for a second :-)
the reason it didn't work in CA was because you can't try to do what they
did - just come in and give the teachers a short course on WL, and then
say 'go do it'...WL requires a LOT of specialized training and practice to
be done effectively.  Oh, and when it IS done effectively it also
*includes* a phonics component.  If you want, we can continue this in
email, so as not to put the rest of the folks to sleep.

Best
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun  7 18:53:06 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 1:33:14 GMT
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Subject: Re: Militia Statutes
Lines: 10


In article <833920384$24347@atype.com>, tlofton@unlinfo.unl.edu (Todd
Lofton) writes:

>It sure seemed to be a paramilitary outfit to me...  I guess they're 
>OK because they're training the kids without the intent to cause 
>illegal disorder, right Mark?  Can you agree to this?

maybe it's the three fingered salute?  the fact that they have 'troops'
and 'patrols', but also pick up litter?  wonder what the balance is....:->


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun  7 18:53:08 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 21:33:25 GMT
Message-ID: <834010405$28886@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Mike Holloman's surrender
Lines: 14


In article <833996936$28214@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>I sez:  Remember them both.  And also remember that they were both
>>committed by racist haters acting with the consent of their respective
>>governments.
>>
>>-- Mike Vanderboegh.
>
>Your ignorance is matched only by your malice.

why mark, didn't you know that the nazi government was behind the
concentration camps?  really, I'm surprised!


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun  7 18:53:09 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 15:21:04 GMT
Message-ID: <834160864$3676@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Freemen and Probable Cause
Lines: 11


In article <834033783$29636@atype.com>, remailer@flame.alias.net (Charlie
Tango) writes:

>They could become citizens of some third world, diseased shit-hole of
>a country, then apply for permanent residency in the U.S., and get
>free housing, social security and medical treatment, and be paid
>to go back to school full-time at the governments expense. 

ya got me there, CT, I never considered they might apply for refugee
status...


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:06 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 16:48:33 GMT
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Subject: Re: Militia Statutes
Lines: 12


In article <834089601$1563@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>But the people here do very little reading in the history of the militia
or
>the constitution or anything else.

mark, I was studying military history while you were still in
diapers...different interpretations of historical events are simply that. 
If you go through your career expecting to develop the 'one true course of
history' you are going to be sadly disappointed.


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:06 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 19:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <834175083$4924@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia Statutes
Lines: 12


In article <834087798$1454@atype.com>, jd11b@aol.com (JD11B) writes:

>would someone tell me what the
>drafters meant by "a well regulated militia."? Citations to supporting
>primary authority

Chris, try looking up 'regulated' in the unabridged OED - you'll find that
one of the other usages for the term *was* (now archaic) 'trained', as
opposed to 'controled'.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:07 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 16:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <834165184$3896@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Mafia is militia?
Lines: 12


In article <834087811$1470@atype.com>, jd11b@aol.com (JD11B) writes:

>If a pseudomilitia [sic] is preparing for war
>with the FBI that would be treason under the consitution, a criminal
>activity.

Chris,
If militia members are prepared to defend themselves against usurpatious
government authority *acting under color of the law* then that would by
definition be neither treasonous, nor criminal, now would it?
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:08 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <834232684$7519@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Gritz, Grodin, and Garbage
Lines: 23


In article <834174185$4890@atype.com>, bogart1@earthlink.net (Tim Hill)
writes:

>In article <834165231$3928@atype.com>, Robert Ireland 
>wrote:
>Markie!!!!!!!!
>> 
>> Is anything working in that pile of mush you call a brain.  PEOPLE
don't
>call militias 
>> hate groups.  
>
>> Get your head out of your ass Mikey.  Go back to your handlers and tell
>them, "sorry no 
>> ceegar."  Geeze, and they pay you $1775 a month to do this?  The
>taxpayers sure aren't 
>> getting their money's worth.
>
>Yeah, no hate there.

certainly no more than on your 'parody' pages, tim...



From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:09 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:18:12 GMT
Message-ID: <834232692$7535@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia Statutes
Lines: 9


In article <834160684$3610@atype.com>, hk157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

>Mr. Pitcavage is complaining that people aren't reading his FAQ.
>I wonder why.

uh, Janet, it's called 'bias', and I don't mean as opposed to radial
tires, either...:-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:10 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:18:25 GMT
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Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right to Own Guns????
Lines: 10


In article <834156945$3061@atype.com>, tlknapp@earthlink.net (Thomas L.
Knapp) writes:

>"Objectivism"--and then go pick up some cheap used 
>paperbacks of Ayn Rand's works.

Okay, Tom, now, for those of us who don't by 'objectivism' any more than
you buy religion, would you mind chilling on the gratuitous swipes at
religion?  


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:11 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:18:32 GMT
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Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right to Own Guns????
Lines: 16


In article <834187375$5661@atype.com>, liberty@flash.net (LQuest) writes:

>We degrade our cause and cloud the issue when we try to defend gun
ownership
>with mysticism.
>

Hi Mike,

for those of us who value our spirituality very deeply it would be
intensely degrading to both ourselves and our cause were we *not* to
include our  relationship with The Supreme Being in our considerations.

Arlin Adams



From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:12 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:18:39 GMT
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Subject: Re: An 'at will' termination compels me...
Lines: 17


In article <834159883$3533@atype.com>, dcinege@superlink.net (Dave Cinege)
writes:

>Bomb something. It's much more productive. Take out something bad.....
>IRS building, maybe one that is a computer back-up hub. FeeBIes and
ATFers
>are fun to blow up. Be creative, and do something useful if you are going
>to throw caution to the wind......

Oh that's real fine, dave, yeah, right, like that's going to do anything
other than get him in big trouble and come even closer to forcing a
confrontation than we already are - just whose side are you on here? 
other than your own, that is?

Arlin Adams



From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:13 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:33:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: Inquiry on Sovereign Citizenship Theory
Lines: 14


In article <834159919$3561@atype.com>, dcinege@superlink.net (Dave Cinege)
writes:

>
>Ignore the gerbal stuffing closet homosexual alcoholic scumbag 
>socialist with low standards.

dave, we keep trying to ignore you, but then you wander back here, instead
of staying over in the supremacist newsgroups selling fake tax
deals...really if you'd just stay away, I *promise* none of us will come
looking for you.

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:33:21 GMT
Message-ID: <834233601$7644@atype.com>
Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right
Lines: 39


In article <834168783$4328@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>According to Old Testament Law it's perfectly 
>ok to execute (stone) a potsmoker.

LOL!  okay frankie, this I've GOT to see - *where* do you find THAT
concept in the Old Testament??


>  ..just look at where Judea-Christian values have taken 
>American society, it's going to hell. It glorifies murder. 
>It loves war. It despises freedom. It flirts with nuclear
>self-destruction...all that fire and brimstone stuff.. 

You have only accusations here frankie, let's at least see an attempt at
specific examples, eh?

> Heh..well this is a militia newsgroup. Religious 
>fundamentalism and libertarianism cancel each other out, 
>and leads to self destruction.

Another unsupported assertion frankie - if this is what happens, you
should have some factual examples to prove it.  Or do you?


> We are seeing this with 
>the militia movement. If the movement was not Judeo-
>Christian-centered and was strictly libertarian you would  
>see all the religious kooks opposing militias, not being a 
>part of them.

a strictly libertarian society supports ALL of the liberties of ALL of the
people ALL of the time - and that includes RELIGIOUS liberty as well. 
Anything less is merely totalitarianism dressed up in pot smoke.  sorry
frankie, no sale.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun  8 19:00:15 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:33:15 GMT
Message-ID: <834233595$7628@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Truth about the Oklahoma City Bombing
Lines: 10


In article <834193085$6404@atype.com>, "Wayne 'Ras' Wattley"
 writes:

>All of these conspiracy theories are just that.

wayne, ya gotta try to post *before* you toke up...by stating something is
what it is, you prove nothing other than it's existance...wanna try again?

Arlin Adams


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Date: Sat, 8 Jun 96 11:33:28 GMT
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Subject: Re: Racism in militias
Lines: 16


In article <834191284$6363@atype.com>, "J. Mickelson" 
writes:

>The Unabomber is also anti-left.

hmm, in the strict sense that terrorism would, in marxist terms, be a
"crime against the people", I could see why you might say this...none the
less the unabomber's anti-technology rants were no more than extensions of
the twisted logic found in such books as algore's 'earth in the balance'. 
To the extent, then, that the unabomber's philosophy appears to have
developed directly out of the radical environmental movement, which is
certainly neither conservative nor libertarian in nature, he is at best a
deranged liberal.

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 22:55:41 GMT
Message-ID: <834188141$5950@atype.com>
Subject: Re: A peculiar idea of peace
Lines: 19



In article <833808783$19023@atype.com>, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber)
writes:

>Date: Monday, 22-Apr-96 09:03 PM
>
>From: Slayer
>
>Subject: theodore n. KAUFMAN...

Uh, I realize history isn't your forte, hub*r, (and certainly with the
common fate of supremacist attempts at controling modern democracies I can
see why you'd avoid it), none the less, the book in question is simply a
reflection of the antifascist reaction to nazi germany at the beginning of
WWII.  What you've simply got to realize is that your problem isn't with
Jewish people, it's with ALL OF US, even us 'aryan' s...

Arlin H. Adams


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Article: 21099 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Wed, 5 Jun 96 21:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <834010385$28870@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Racism in militias
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In article <833997807$28303@atype.com>, mamacamp@aol.com (MamaCamp)
writes:

>The difference here IMO, is that the fringe elements in the militia
>movement are played up by the media, who by and large, is made up of the
>Left.
>The government encourages this covertly and overtly because it helps fuel
>public opinion against the militias

precisely!  you know, here in DC it's common knowledge that one of the
books found in the unabomber's cabin was Algore's EARTH IN THE
BALANCE...notice how NONE of the networks picked that up?  also, as was
pointed out previously on this group, when was the last time you heard the
media use the term 'leftwing extremist'?  just a bit of bias...


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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 5:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <834297483$9861@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Where do militias sta
Lines: 29


In article <834288709$9515@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>which applies
>the principles of classic liberalism ('Jeffersonian liberalism')
>to civil liberties and issues of equal rights.

alright, in the sense of Jeffersonian liberalism - ie civil liberties and
equal rights - we libertarians might be said to be liberal...just as the
Declaration of Independence might be said to be a 'liberal' document under
the same criteria.  Unfortunately the term 'liberal' has in fact been
usurped by the yuppie p.c. pseudoliberal scum who are currently in control
of the government and the mainstream media.  Therefore we generally avoid
that term, in order to avoid the concurrent confusion.

>> The
>> reality is that we can at least work with the populists, while the
>> left, by and large, wont even give us  the time of day....
>
>  The left is now and always has spoken out against 
>oppression to a greater degree than the right.After all,the 
>conservative right runs the whole show. It's just a fact of 
>life, leftists tend to be liberal and rightists tend to be 
>conservative.

oh come on, frankie, the left supported such wonderfully outspoken
liberals as Stalin and Mao...don't tell me that you've spoken out against
*all* oppression...only we libertarians have done that.  sorry, no sale.


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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 6:03:21 GMT
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Subject: Re: Truth about the Oklahoma City Bombing
Lines: 13


In article <834288807$9563@atype.com>, musashi@dimensional.com (Harry
Langford) writes:

>
>               The truth about Waco is avaiable for anyone
>               that wants to seek it out.


ah, but that's the whole point, Harry, Wayne doesn't want to be forced to
think for himself, so he's just going to be satisfied with whatever the
government controled media tell him...I guess if I was vindictive, I might
say 'shame on him'...


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Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 6:04:08 GMT
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Subject: Re: Where do militias sta
Lines: 70


In article <834285789$9410@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>Sometimes I wonder if it's not
>impossible to preach liberal principles to the ultraconservative,
>they are so  dogmatically entrenched and narrow-minded.

the funny thing here, is that this is *exactly* what *they* say about
ultraliberals when it comes to things like individual rights, or the
second ammendment...that's why we libertarians spend so much of the time
giggling at both groups...not high, just amused....


>> *then* maybe you'd see some policy changes. 
> 
>  True..Sad, but true. Goes to show how populist and rightwing
>American politics is.

none the less, that's not going to change any time soon...so we have to
work with what's available, frankie...if we sit around waiting for an
optimal situation, the statists are going to eat us all for lunch.  We
MUST work together to survive.  If we can't have a true libertarian
society, than a strict constitutionalist one, with a federal government
stripped to the bare minimum, is still going to be orders of magnitude
better than the situation today.



>> In no case, however, will you see a march on Washington. 
>
>  Not an armed march at least.

even an unarmed march would be asking for trouble.  how difficult do you
think it would be for the statist controled media to edit any incident so
that the video showed that "militia members" started firing first?  study
the radio station incident that Hitler used to justify the invasion of
Poland...with modern digital editting techniques, they'd be able to make
that look like a middle school drama production....

>>We're *defensive* *local* organizations, that's our entire
>>orientation. 
>
>  And you speak for the entuire movement? Timothy McVeigh 
>among others want to nationalize the militias to defend against 
>massive government attack. 

In this case, I think my statement can reasonably be said to reflect the
views of the vast majority of the movement, including *all* of the
Constitutional Militias, and quite a few of the independents as well. 
There is no way to nationalize the movement militarily without becoming
the same as our enemies...there might be a way to nationalize it
politically, but that would take a *lot* of serious negotiation among the
various concerned parties...personally I don't think that stage has been
reached quite yet, although it may be close at hand.


>> Plus just think of the wonderful opportunities such a
>>march would give for the engineering of incidents by any number of
>>factions...nope, no march, ain't gonna happen, wouldn't be
>>prudent...:-)
>
>  Would be stupid..Would be possible..Almost happened a few years 
>ago when Linda Thompson spread to word to militias from all over
>to bring their guns to Washington for a march.

yep, and we all spread the word back about LT...nice lady, very dedicated,
just not always existing in the same space-time as many of the rest of us.
 In other words the movment itself forced her to back down, and cancel the
march...and for exactly the reasons I've given you.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 6:03:42 GMT
Message-ID: <834300222$10016@atype.com>
Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right
Lines: 218


In article <834281319$9242@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>   Witches (those who practice sorcery) are to be executed.

hmm, you're just trying to get me into trouble with some of the
Conservative Christians, aren't you?  Oh well, here goes: okay, this is
your first, although I must admit, easily understandable mistake.  The use
of the word 'witch' in this context was a *mistranslation* which occurred
a very long time ago...I'm not sure if it's traceable to the Jerome
Vulgate, but it certainly goes back as far as the King James Version, in
English.  IF you go back to the original Hebrew, the word used in the
phrase condemning certain types of paranormal activities actually means
'necromancer'...well a little more than that (there really isn't an exact
English equvalent) it actually means someone who uses evil powers to
enslave the souls of those who have been condemned - check out the 'witch'
of endor...who was actually the necromancer of endor, which is why a
certain biblical figure got in so much trouble for talking to her.  If one
reads the Old Testament, one comes across multiple instances of paranormal
phenomena...of people capable of paranormal actions...these are only
condemned when they are used in a manner *counter* to God's will.  i.e.
The Egyptian wizards had obviously existed for a long time, prior to Moses
and Aaron challenging them - they lost their power and became ineffective
only because they directly challenged the Divinely inspired power of
Moses' Staff.  Indeed, in I Cor 12 St Paul plainly states that there are
paranormal abilities and that these abilities are given *by* God.


>Pot smoking is the use of a psychoactive drug,

Pot is no more or less psychoactive than wine, which was the most common
adult beverage in the Bible...In point of fact, Jesus is actually recorded
as turning water *into* wine, at the wedding of a friend.  Wine use, in
and of itself was not condemned although excessive overuse - drunkenness,
certainly *was* seen as evil.

> which is sorcery
>according to the original meaning of sorcery, being a translation
>from the Greek 'pharmocaea'.

again, you're using the wrong word 'sorcery' when in fact the original
text refers to 'necromancy' but more to the point you are also following
the wrong language tree, in that the deriviative meanings from the O.T.
come from Hebrew, not Greek sources.  

> This association has lasted for many
>millenia, and still exists today, with the various prohibitions
>enacted by the religious right in government.

uh, actually they're enacted by groups of people who see the results of
drug prohibition as being caused by the drugs, rather than by the
prohibition.

> Clinton making pot
>dealing an offence punishible by death is just another example of
>how the gov't still bases their reasons to kill people on Old
>Testament law.

no, it's an example of how billy jeff will do anything he thinks makes a
nice gesture he can point to when it's time to run for re-election.


>     ..think of it this way, why the association with witches 
>and the ability to fly on broomsticks ?

That's from old central european folk stories about wise women with
special abilities who were, among other things, capable of animating
inanimate objects...one of the examples cited in the stories were animated
brooms which were ridden like horses (with the bristles *forward* by the
way, like a horse's head).  This was due to the fact that horses were so
expensive to own and maintain that only very wealthy people had them -
everybody else walked.  These stories were subsequently twisted, by the
Puritans, and others, into the 'witch hunts' of the late middle ages up
through the middle 17th Century.  Make no mistake - those activities were
reprehensible in the extreme, but they did NOT reflect the true values of
Christianity - they simply provided an expedient means for keeping the
commoners scared and dependent on the state.


>  a> >  ..just look at where Judea-Christian values have taken 
>a> >American society, it's going to hell. It glorifies murder. 
>a> >It loves war. It despises freedom. It flirts with nuclear
>a> >self-destruction...all that fire and brimstone stuff.. 
>a> 
>a> You have only accusations here frankie, let's at least see an
>a> attempt at specific examples, eh? 
>
>  for example:
>
>a> It glorifies murder.
>
> ..in the way it kills its prisoners and non-violent offenders.
>Newt Gingrich advocating mass-executions for non-violent 
>offenders for example. 

uh, frankie, I, and most other libertarians I know, advocate execution for
certain crimes rather than life imprisonment - basically because *we*
aren't willing to pay room and board for the next 50 years for the likes
of Ted Bundy.  as to Newt 'advocating mass-executions' of anybody, I'm
going to have to ask you to be more specific - to say that I find this far
fetched, is certainly not an overstatement of my initial reaction.

>  a> It loves war.
>
> I don't think any explanation is needed here.

oh, but I think it does.  give an example which directly links modern
Christianity in the United States with any war at all.  I really don't
think you can.


> a>  it's going to hell. 

society in general is decaying, but you have yet to prove that there is
any direct causal linkage between this decay and Christians, Jews,
Moslems, or any other religious group.

>a>  It despises freedom.
>
>  America is moving towards a police state and the repeal of 
>constitutional rights. Already the PRESIDENT has advocated 
>ignoring 4th amendment protections in public housing. Now he's 
>advocating teen curfews, another unconstitutional step towards
>martial law. Are you aware there's already HUNDRED of cities
>with after-dark curfews?

Indeed billy jeff is advocating these sorts of things...now explain how
the weasel from arkansas, who is owned by every liberal interest under
creation, can be a member of the 'Religious Right'...sorry frankie, but
that's also going to require some examples - you have evidence of him
taking orders from Pat Robertson, perhaps?


>  a> It despises freedom. 
>
> CDA, antiterrorism bill, crime bill, prohibition, gun control..
>all pretty popular agendas in the last few years.

CDA, the antiterrorism bill, the crime bill, and gun control were all
based on initiatives from the Liberal Left, frankie...now what does *that*
tell you about where the totallitarianism is coming from in this country?


>  a> It flirts with nuclear self-destruction..
>
> for example, electing an old senile apocalyptic as president, who joked 
>about nuking Russia...joked about global genocide.

personally I thought it was a pretty funny line...if anyone was stupid
enough to catch themselves believing him, then they deserve to feel
embarassed...sorry it happened to you...


>   Now that Reagan destroyed the USSR we are under a greater threat 
>of there being some sort of nucear attack.Now any nation can get
>nuclear weapons.

uh, frankie, a whole bunch of nations had nukes *before* the disbanding of
the ussr.  It's just that they knew that any attempt to use them would
result in either us or the russians making sure that there wasn't anybody 
in a position to do such a stupid thing twice....more to the point,
destabilization is an inherent historical event which occurs over and over
again, to expect the entire cyclic course of history to suddenly stop is a
bit unrealistic, don't you think?

>  a> > Heh..well this is a militia newsgroup. Religious 
>a> >fundamentalism and libertarianism cancel each other out, 
>a> >and leads to self destruction.
>a> 
>a> Another unsupported assertion frankie - if this is what
>a> happens, you should have some factual examples to prove it.  Or
>a> do you?
>
>   Look at how the militia movement has shot itself in the foot 
>before congress and in the media..A bible in one hand and a rifle
>in the other..Now we've got a situation where the word 'patriot'
>is  synonymous with 'kook'..That's not good.

frankie, the media have been doing everything in their power to smear us
for several years now.  Certainly most of our people are not very media
savvy, and that has hurt us, but it really wouldn't matter all that much -
as an example look at Ralph Nader - now I don't agree with most of what
Mr. Nader believes, but he *is* very bright, and a trained lawyer to boot,
yet the media generally make him come off as an absent minded idiot who's
about 2 tacos short of the blue plate special...they can do this to
anybody.  What this points to is the need for the development of a
political wing within the movement, in order to have people who are
capable of communicating our issues without allowing the media to run
roughshod over them.  Let me make one other thing perfectly clear.  Yes,
some of our folks take their stand with the Bible in one hand, and a rifle
in the other, but  I have no problem with them at all, nor with those who
stand with the Torah in one hand, and a rifle in the other, nor those who
stand with the Book of Mormon in one hand and a rifle in the other...AS
LONG AS THEY ARE HOLDING ONTO THE CONSTITUTION AS WELL.  It can be in
either hand, either under their Scriptures, or over the rifle.

>  ..already there's been changes to the antiterrorism bill due to the 
>actions of a self-proclaimed militia nut.

specific example please?

> What's next? Repealing the  2nd amendment?

possible, but unlikely...any such attempt would almost certainly trigger
armed resistance, and the statists know it, no, they'll most likely try
more incremental nonsense, hoping nobody will notice...

>a> a strictly libertarian society supports ALL of the liberties
>a> of ALL of the people ALL of the time - and that includes
>a> RELIGIOUS liberty as well. 
>
>  Yes!..but to ALSO oppose religious supremacy and the theocrats 
>who are working towards establishing a millenium of theocratic
>tyranny by any means neccessary.

of course.  we oppose any form of dictatorship, that's a given...and our
Conservative Christian friends know that, again there's no problem.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 23:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <834362284$417@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 21


In article <834293885$9706@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>In article <833671092$13018@atype.com>, hempster@io.org
>(frankenchrist) writes:
>
>>> One mans nazidiot is another mans Christian Patriot.
>
>>interesting, even as a libertarian, I can tell the difference
>>between conservative Christians, and c.i. types...are you saying
>>that from where you stand you can perceive no differences?
> 
>  Identity Christians are very conservative, that much can be said
>about them.

c.i. types are neither Christian, nor conservative, they're neonazis who
have adapted twisted versions of some of the outward trappings of
Christianity in an attempt to disguise their fundamental fascism.  C'mon
frankie, I know you're a theophobe, but a bit of basic research should
have been able to reveal that much to you.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 3:48:53 GMT
Message-ID: <834378533$862@atype.com>
Subject: Re: God Gave Us the Right
Lines: 34


In article <834360483$362@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>Pardon me for butting in with a bit of minutiae.  Arlin, while you are
>correct on many points you made in this post, I would have to disagree
>with this one.  While alcohol is a depressant, I don't believe it
>would qualify as a psychoactive.  As I understand it, psychoactive
>drugs are those which are halucinogenic in nature.  Although there
>have been cases of alcohol-induced halucinations, these are somewhat
>rare and have not been shown to result from any directly halucinogenic
>property of alcohol itself.

Not a problem, Michael, I was attempting to generalize, in the interests
of brevity, and I fear I ended up overgeneralizing on this point.  Let me
attempt to a more complete explanation:

alcohol in moderate quantities is a depressant, just as you stated.  THC,
the active chemical compound in pot is also, in moderate quantities, a
depressant.  One of the major differences here, of course, is that the
body can metabolize the alcohol into sugar - which is where energetic, and
sometimes dangerous drunks get all of their energy; while THC simply
remains in the body as a chemical substance until it is filtered out by
the kidneys and excreted - thus users of pot are not able to draw on any
additional energy, and tend to be more passive.  Hallucinations, from
either alcohol or THC occur only when large (i.e. abusive) quantities are
consumed, or when either substance has been contaminated with more highly
psychoactive substance.  The point I was trying to make was that it was
not *consumption* per se which was decried as a sin, but rather abusive
and debillitating consumption...does that make it any clearer?

Arlin Adams

Remember Masada


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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 3:48:33 GMT
Message-ID: <834378513$846@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Hitler and gun control
Lines: 27


In article <834320884$10668@atype.com>, bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les
Griswold) writes:

>Geezus, are you guys ever a bunch of Nervous Nellies.  Simple fact is,
the
>firearms-laws passed by the National Socialists in 1938 (that's five
years 
>after they came into power, FYI) were far less stringent than those that
>had been crafted in 1928 by the Weimar Republic.

nice try les, now you're counting on the historical ignorance of your
readership.  While the Weimar Republic was coerced by the allied powers
into instituting stringent gun control laws, they were never in any
position to enforce those laws.  The country was destabilized by a
staggering war debt, the resulting inflation, depression, and the direct
destabilization efforts of both the communists and your ancestors, the
original nazis.  The difference between the Weimar Republic's laws and the
nazi law of 1938 was that by 1938 the fascist regime was well on it's way
to instituting an absolute police state with in Germany, thus making over
rigid enforcement of it's law much more of a threat than the 1928 laws
ever were - just as the over rigid enforcement of the gun control laws
today makes them as much of a threat to liberty as your nazi ancestors
attempts of 60 years ago.  No sale, les.

Arlin H. Adams



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Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 3:48:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 59


In article <834337084$11364@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>I note you did not include science, environmental studies, or _real_
>geography including cultural and world religions ... all of which contain
>elements that are considered "unacceptable" by many religionists. 

okay Wiz, as someone who has actually taught in a Catholic parochial
school ( I don't do public schools, thankyou) I'll include science,
environmental studies,  and *real* geography including cultural geography
as areas where I've seen private religious schools excel over the holding
tanks that are most of the urban public school system...sorry, but your
bias is showing...

>Any school dedicated to a single philosophy, religious or anti-religious,
>is antithetical to an effective, broad-based education.

again this is not an inherent truth.  Here in Virginia, for example, the
parochial school standards are in many ways parallel, and in some ways
more stringent, than their public school equivalents.  More importantly,
the smaller class size, parental envolvement and consistent enforcement of
rules insures that the teachers and students spend vastly more of their
time on course materials and vastly less on 'administrative' and
disciplinary matters than their public school counterparts.  I do believe
you are over generalizing, just a bit, eh?

> Focusing on math,
>english, and history, may improve scores in those areas, but does not
>necessarily produce the level of education necessary to work with the
>diverse cultures in the ever-evolving world.

which is an argument against *any* school district which focusses on these
things...unless of course that's all they *can* focus on, because their
students are so far behind the performance curve, as is the case with some
*public* schools in this area.

> Thus international
>competitiveness rapidly becomes impaired and the culture becomes
>excessively insular and ultimately economically deprived.

which is exactly what's happening to students in public schools.  for the
life of me, I cannot understand why any parent who could afford to do
otherwise, would leave their children in that environment.

> Again, I direct
>your attention to the Latin American systems which are based heavily on
>religious schools as examples.

this is an invalid comparison.  Wiz, ya gotta pay attention to the
cultural and religious roots of the people *running* the schools - Latin
American religious structures are derived from Spanish, authoritarian
cultural models.  American religious structures are derived from
Anglo-American, anti-authoritarian models... this is a totally different
environment.  Thus to attempt to draw conclusions about American schools
>from  their Latin American counterparts is to base such conclusions on a
false premise.

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 3:48:20 GMT
Message-ID: <834378500$830@atype.com>
Subject: Re: More Helicopter News
Lines: 12


In article <834355083$564@atype.com>, musashi@dimensional.com (Harry
Langford) writes:

>Because it would be *dangerous* in D.C.  The mayor
>               might think his coke bill has come due, and start
>               firing back. :)

LOL! you're right Harry, either that, or the Guards at the Marine
(President's Own) and Army (Old Guard) regiments would open up on
them...and THOSE guys have live ammo! :-)



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 16:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <834422583$2421@atype.com>
Subject: Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL
Lines: 19


In article <834420786$2269@atype.com>, hk157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

>There are "guns" available which fire paint balls. I understand
>that the range of these "guns" is somewhat less than 500 feet.
>If this is true, why not load those paintball guns with paint
>of a bright irridescent color. When an unmarked black aircraft
>flies too low over a residential area, aim for the underside of
>the offender and fire.
>This would not cause any permanent damage to the aircraft or 
>threaten bodily harm to the occupants.
>It would provide the officers who command the units that the 
>pilots had indeed violated the FAA 500 feet limit.

I LIKE IT!  hmm, say BLAZE ORANGE...what a concept! :-)  Janet, I like the
way you think!

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 4:03:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL
Lines: 20


In article <834449584$3583@atype.com>, "W.R. Giacona" 
writes:

>AND THAT IS EXACTLY 
>WHERE HE BELONGS. 99% of these low flying aircraft are most likely on 
>final approach to an airport or doing something else well within their 
>rights and even if they are not you ARE putting the pilot and pax in 
>danger. Not to mention those on the ground around the craft.

uh sorry to disturb your lack of information, but twice in the last month
(once in Chicago and once in Pittsburg) U.S. military special operations
units have in fact performed low altitude maneuvers over portions of
populated urban areas...without prior warning being given.  I understand
that the City of Pittsburg is in the process of filing a formal complaint
with the federal government, for all the good it will do them.  I fully
support paint balling any further such incidents - at least it'll mess up
their fancy paint job....

Arlin Adams


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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 4:03:20 GMT
Message-ID: <834465800$4219@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 59


In article <834446960$3494@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>a> c.i. types are neither Christian, 
>
>  Yes they are..They are biblical fundamentalists..They thump 
>their bibles as hard as any Baptist or Pentacostal, if not
>harder.

frankie this is simply not true.  Their theology of hate intentionally
misinterprets, and in some cases out right fabricates elements of both the
Old and New Testament...they attempt in their perverse way to prove Jesus
wasn't Jewish...it's that nonsensical, really.  I know you aren't familiar
with the tenets of Christianity - that much is obvious if they could
convince you that they actually were some form of Christian, but a little
basic research on the topic might prove enlightening.


>  a>  nor conservative,
>
> they are ultra-conservative..arch-conservative...extremist
>conservative, in so may ways.
>
>   a> they're neonazis who
>a> have adapted twisted versions of some of the outward trappings
>a> of Christianity in an attempt to disguise their fundamental
>a> fascism.  
>
> From my experience with these folks, they ARE true believers.
>They live according to their beliefs, which is more than can be 
>said for most Christians.

frankie, they're freaking NAZIs !  I don't care if they're true believers
- so was himmler!  They're racists, antisemites, and have no relationship
whatsoever to either Christianity or American political
conservatism...wake up and smell the coffee!  

>   a>  I know you're a theophobe, but a bit of basic research should
>a> have been able to reveal that much to you.

sorry, should have been more specific, I meant a little  basic research
into mainstream Christian theology...not a little basic research into
c.i....the latter hadn't even occurred to me as something you'd be
comfortable with...my fault.

>profound belief in racist Christianity and a biblically-based 
>hatred for Jews and niggers.

frankie there is *no* *such* *thing* as 'racist Christianity'. 
Christianity is profoundly inclusive of all races.  This is what I meant
about their twisted attempts at theology...they started with their facist
beliefs and then  twisted or mutilated Scripture in an vain attempt to
demonstrate the 'correctness' of their views.  I challenge you to
investigate the theological basis for several of the mainstream Christian
denominations, and then see if you can maintain your belief that c.i. is
anything other than an intentional perversion.

Arlin Adams


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In article <834418100$2139@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Then why did the U criticize liberals and leftists in his writings?

obviously because they weren't pure enough for him.


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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 4:03:38 GMT
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Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 253


Hi again Wiz,

Well, let's see where we go with it now, eh?

>Shades of Copernicus! I'm not convinced that American Catholic schools
>such as you describe are representative of the current and evolving trend
>of religious schools in general, end especially of the new fortress-like
>"Christian Academies" springing up around the country ...

Okay, I need to ask the source of your data on religious schools. 
Certainly the American Catholic schools with which I am familiar are
representative of the current trend in, well, Catholic schools...but then
they are probably the most well established, and certainly the most
numerous of the many types of religious schools, followed, though not too
closely, by the Episcopalean, Lutheran, and Methodist parochial schools.
There are also Quaker schools, although few in number, these have a long
tradition of high standards (and tend to be quite liberal, to boot).  I am
familiar with a few schools in this area which use the 'Christian Academy'
moniker, and my impression is that they are mostly either Baptist or
Assembly of God - two of the more conservative Protestant denominations...
 It seems a bit, uhm, distorted, to attempt to define the entire movement
by a few conservative religious schools...while I have no direct knowledge
of their educational approach, whatever their pedagogy it certainly cannot
be said to represent the entire spectrum of church supported education.

> the reports of
>religionist opposition to teaching issues like evolution, different
>religions, cultural studies, and a multitude of environmental issues
>abound and match my observations.

which ones, and where?  of the thousands of Christian schools in this
country, how many fall into the categories covered by your reports? 
Really Wiz, you need to be careful about over generalizing that way, you
might get one of the liberal Methodists or Quakers mad at you, and some of
them can talk your ear off, once they get rolling! :-)

> More extreme religionists have gone so
>far as to sponsor public book burnings.

data sources please?


> Not wanting to open a can of
>worms, but I suspect that the main reasons the schools you mention are as
>complete in their content as they are is due to the external
accreditation
>requirements, higher funding levels, and the need to compete with the
>public system.

uh, negative on all counts Wiz.  First, although this can vary from state
to state, in Virginia the Catholic schools are accreditted through the a
Catholic accreditation authority, not a state governmental authority. 
Second, the current per pupil expenditures in the District of Columbia
public schools average around $9,000 per year, while the parochial schools
are operating on about 1/3 of that.  Third, there is no need to compete
with the public school system, since the latter is in such abysmal shape
that any decent education provider automatically shows it up.

> I would therefore expect the religious school industry to
>at least superficially _appear_ better. After all they have to _sell_
>their product. However, folks are working hard to get rid of the
>centralized structures that have made those schools you mention even
>modestly complete ... what will happen then? 

again Wiz, you're operating on false assumptions.  The parochials schools,
supported by parents who are STILL required to pay taxes in support of
public schools they do not use, are doing more, with less money, and
generally doing it better (and SAFER) than their public school
counterparts.  The public school system is terminally broken, and there is
no sane reason that it could not easily be scrapped in favor of vouchers
tomorrow - the only thing preventing that are the political machinations
of the teachers unions, and a few die hard liberals who still seem to
think that throwing money at a problem is the best way to fix it.

>As for-profit schools,

this is another over-generalization, Wiz.  Some private schools are indeed
for-profit, but most church supported schools are either drawing
additional funding from their supporting congregations, or barely break
even.

> they _should_ have smaller classes and, most
>importantly, can be more SELECTIVE on who they accept ... religious
>schools just kick out the problem kids ... a nice, easy pat answer for
>them, you know? They aren't superior, they are simply selective.

all schools should be selective.  It is NOT the school's job to socialize
or discipline students - that is the responsibility of the students'
parents.  It is also NOT the school's job to act as a holding pen for
disaffected youth.  A general lack of public understanding of these two
points has been a major contributing factor to the on-going devolution of
the public school system.


> This
>control for the moment makes them _look_ good, but does not inherently
>make them any better when faced with having to deal with the entire
>student population in a fair, democratic and unbiased fashion.

I'm sorry, Wiz, but I need to ask you to rephrase this statement, because
quite frankly I don't understand what you are saying here...it's late and
it's been a long day, but maybe you could try saying this another way?

> Again, look
>to Latin America for an example ... it is not the cultural difference so
>much as the fact that the schools tend to include ALL students, not just
>the select.

uh, it was my impression that you were criticizing L.A. parochial schools,
in your last post, or did I get that wrong?

>Based on the nature of religion? 

Based on the nature of what part of which religion, Wiz?

>Current events by the religionists relating to what should be taught?

events by persons associated with what part of which religion Wiz?

> Efforts by some to eliminate central minimum standards? 

Here in Virginia, the Virginia Catholic Education Association has already
succeeded in that regard.

>Book burnings? 

haven't seen any of those...don't know of any teachers who would approve.

>Content protests?

it's called free speech, Wiz...First Ammendment and all that.

> Efforts to eliminate minimum standards? 

uh, I think we already covered that one.

>School prayer as a predominant issue over school content?

to those who believe strongly in this issue, prayer is an element of
content.

> Eliminating public funding (thus CAUSING the class size problems you
mention)?

uh, Wiz, no one has yet succeeded in eliminating public funding (although
many of us, including the entire Libertarian Party,  look forward to that
day), the problems you note are caused by the corrupt bureaucracy inherent
in any goverment controled project.

> And looking to the future if outside controls are eliminated
>(which is a major stated desire by those groups)?

as I stated before, here in Va, and elsewhere this has already occurred. 
No problem here!

> I don't think so ...

I *still* think you're overgeneralizing...and a little confused about the
true sources of the problems.

>I think the message of the religionists has been made quite clear by
them.

uh, I'm still not clear on this term 'religionist' Wiz.  The way you use
it looks an awful like the way the klan types use the 'n' word, I must
say... or do we in fact all look alike to you?

>Throughout history and now they oppose broad-based and effective
education
>especially where it runs counter to theology.

Again, you seem to be generalizing from a few specific examples to a much
larger, and more diverse population which bears little resemblance to what
you describe.

>And for the life of me I can't understand why so many people actively
work
>to gut the public system of funding and support when they "could afford
to
>do otherwise" ...

because it's terminally broken, and as long as the government continues to
run it, an appropriate fix will NOT be possible...much less cost
effective.

> heck, imagine if we just quit tithing in church and used
>that money to improve the public school system. The extra 65 billion
>dollars could come in useful for improving the facilities, upgrading
>equipment, decreasing class sizes, and so on.

LOL!  and if the Democratic Party suddenly contributed all of their money
to the LP, we'd have a Libertarian President AND a Libertarian Congress. 
C'mon Wiz, let's at least try to main some semblance of reality in the
debate.

>Uh, huh. There's some truth to this, except for one point: A lot of folks
>here are arguing that American society itself is authoritarian. Just as a
>personal observation, I would say that except for political issues, many
>Latin societies are functionally LESS authoritarian, if for no other
>reason than the lack of funding for enforcement.

Okay, well, I guess we can't expect you to be an expert on the various
flavors of Christianity, so I'll simply say that except in matters of
religion or politics, Latin American societies are functionally
inefficient at imposing authoritarian controls, but that's about as far as
I'd go.

>>American religious structures are derived from Anglo-American, 
>>anti-authoritarian models... this is a totally different environment.
>
>Uh, huh. Following the traditional religionist arguments, including your
>previous statement about "rules", it appears that the public schools
trend
>more toward an "anti-authoritarian" model then the church schools do.

Nice try, Wiz, but my comment about rules was meant to communicate that
the children in the parochial schools were socialized and disciplined by
their parents, therefore not requiring the school to attempt the
impossible job of countering 18 hours per day of home life with six hours
per day of school rules.  hmm, sorry, guess I should have been clearer on
that the first time around.

> Thus
>your statement here would make me certainly favor the public system ...
if
>I thought the point really had merit.

uh, Wiz, that statement makes no sense to me, could you explain please.

> Actually, the Japanese have fairly
>good schools, and a highly authoritarian system. Thus I don't think the
>anti-authoritarian model is all that significant. Then again, perhaps we
>should pattern our educational facilities more after the Japanese? Nah, I
>don't think that would go over to well.

unh-unh Wiz, reductio ad absurdum only works in context.  Which rules the
Japanese school systems out of bounds...even if you do choose to ignore
the increasing rates of psychological disfunction, disaffection, and
suicide among Japanese students - due in large part to the extreme
pressures on them to perform at or above their peak ability levels under
all circumstances.


>Only if I apply an idealized view of the American public at large ... the
>current reality seems to be that if anything, they may be more latin
>(except language) than the Latins. Look at all the "sheeple" debates in
>this newsgroup if you doubt that others see the same issue.

The 'sheeple' discussion generally centers on the current products of
public schools, Wiz...

Arlin Adams


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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 4:03:52 GMT
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Subject: Re: An 'at will' termination compels me...
Lines: 21


In article <834455885$3848@atype.com>, goryder@teleport.com
(1-800-Go-Ryder) writes:

>>And as for forcing a confrontation.......HA! We would first have the
have 
>>MEN willing to fight to have a confrontation. Ain't none of those around

>>here.
>
>At least few that post, anyway.
>
>Us lurkers are here.  We get loads of laughs out of those who challenge
you.

uh, let's see, that would be those of you too cowardly to post under your
own names?  Wow! that's really impressive, I must say...at least dave has
the guts to stand behind his beliefs...wonder what YOU are standing
behind....

Arlin Adams


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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 22:19:15 GMT
Message-ID: <834531555$6511@atype.com>
Subject: Re: New armed forces
Lines: 16


In article <834474784$4512@atype.com>, hfinney@shell.portal.com (Ken Nou)
writes:

>Anyone heard anything about these new storm troopers the gov't is 
>gathering?


Hi Dave,

do a web search on CYBERWAR and CYBERWARFARE, you may find some
interesting stuff.  If you don't have web access let me know, and I'll
send you the little I've managed to accumulate.

Best
Arlin Adams


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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 22:18:06 GMT
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Subject: Re: yahoos in the woods
Lines: 10


In article <834421708$2394@atype.com>, bogart1@earthlink.net (Tim Hill)
writes:

>Yeah, I think impotent, middle-aged, banjo-playing, cousen-marrying, 
>trailer-park-dwelling, moonshine-swilling, bigots would be a more 
>accurate term.

tim, tim, I keep telling you - none of us are members of your family -
it's easy to tell because all of OUR family trees branch...


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Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 22:18:43 GMT
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Subject: Re: Black Helicopters
Lines: 33


In article <834527001$6278@atype.com>, Bryan Hall 
writes:

>I know this is probably a dumb question, but could some please tell me 
>what exactly is a black helicopter?

Hi Brian,

Good Lord, we really do need to get a real faq put together, now don't we?
:-)

Okay, here's what it is:

The Special Operations Forces (i.e. Rangers, Army Special Forces, Navy
Seals, etc) have a few dozen helicopters which are really truely painted
flat black.  This is because they sometimes have to sneak into places at
*night*...make sense so far?  BUT that isn't what *most* people mean when
they're talking about 'black helicopters'.  In point of fact, starting
about oh, eight years ago now, the military started painting it's
helicopters with a very expensive paint designed to frustrate laser target
designators - those are the devices used to guide laser guided missiles. 
Now in order for that paint to be effective, it has to be non-reflective
in several different parts of the spectrum...so that a laser pointed at it
wont reflect at all.  The paint is supposed to be dark green, and if you
get up close enough to it (like under about 50 feet) on a sunny day, it
really does look dark green.  But if you see it from a distance it just
looks like some dark color, and people have often mistaken these plain old
army helicopters for mysterious 'black helicopters' reported to be
operating in various areas of the country.  Does this answer your
question?

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:18:14 GMT
Message-ID: <834617894$10244@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 114


In article <834544083$6948@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>a> frankie this is simply not true.  Their theology of hate
>a> intentionally misinterprets, and in some cases out right
>a> fabricates elements of both the Old and New Testament..
>
>  In a way they take the scriptures *too* literally..For example,

uh, they take *parts* of it literally, and the parts they do take, such as
the examples you gave, are taken both out of context and without any
knowledge of the cultural, linguistic, or religious environments in which
they were originally written.  

>   Yup..It's a hate sect, not typical of most churches.
>There's alot of things that are nosensical in Jehovas 
>Witness or Mormon or even Catholic doctrine as well..
>Does that mean they ar enot Chrsitains either?

No, it only means that, to the extent that their message does not parallel
the central themes of the NT,  they've wandered somewhat from the central
theme of Christianity.  [oh boy, I can hardly *wait* to see the comments
on that sentence!]

>  I used to be christian, actually..I'm born-again atheist.

okay.  I'd be interested to hear about that some time.  I guess my other
question there is whether or not you've rejected all forms of
spirituality, simply because you found the Christianity didn't 'fit' for
you.

>  They are Christian, as Christian as any occultic sect of Christendom.

uh, not familiar with the term 'occultic sect' could you define please?

> of course they''re not 'Christian' in their beliefs, but they are bible-
>believers..

frankie the evil one can quote scripture, if it suits his purposes...that
certainly doesn't make *him* Christian.

>a> frankie, they're freaking NAZIs ! 
>
>  Correction, they are neo-nazis.

erm, point to you on a technicality...

>  Hitler himself accepted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour (in his own
words,
>_Fireside Chat with Hitler_)..He was in fact obsessed with Jesus,
>believing him to be the son of God, with supernatural powers.
>Hitler was a Christian.

no.  hitler *claimed* to be a Christian.  His actions, however, were NOT
consistent with Christianity, and therefore he was not what he claimed to
be.  Look frankie, I'm a radical libertarian, now if I suddenly started
claiming I was a socialist, but kept acting like a radical libertarian,
would it be legitimate for people to point to me as an example of
socialism?  of course not!  Just the same, in matters of spirituality, we
must define people by their *actions*, rather than their words.

>  hmm..so Identity Christians aren't conservative Christians?

no, by no means.

> They sure as hell aren't liberal agnostics.

true enough :-)

>  Would you agree with the term 'Christian cult'?

I would define them as a cult.  or perhaps, a cult which misuses the term
Christian.

>a> frankie there is *no* *such* *thing* as 'racist Christianity'. 
>
>   Saying this will not make it so..What about Hitler?
>OK, what about 'racist Christians'?

I define people by their actions, not their words.  perhaps you use a
different standard?


>   a> Christianity is profoundly inclusive of all races.
>
> depending on how you interpret it..Christianity is a death cult from
>an atheistic POV.

yeah, yeah, it's also theophagic from that perspective...and atheism is
inherently self-destructive from a spiritual POV.  

>  Do you believe there is one correct form of Christianity?

I believe that there are a series of core issues regarding both the Person
of Jesus, as well as God's Intent for the world, which are central to all
forms of real Christianity.


> a>  I challenge you to
>a> investigate the theological basis for several of the
>a> mainstream Christian denominations, and then see if you can
>a> maintain your belief that c.i. is anything other than an
>a> intentional perversion. 
>
>  I know it's bullshit, there's no refuting the fact that Jesus was a
Jew,
>which is why they re-define Jew to mean caucasian. Identity
>Christians believe they are the 'true' children of all tribes of
>Israel.

Okay, yet you would say these c.i. types are exactly the same as everyone
else?  doesn't that seem to be stretching it a bit?



From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:28 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:34:04 GMT
Message-ID: <834618844$10373@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia counter-terrorism
Lines: 16


In article <834580096$8697@atype.com>, mo10cav@aol.com (Mo10Cav) writes:

>
>RE: Militia providing security for black churches---
>
>We already are in Alabama.  Roving patrols and other measures.  God help
>the bastards if WE catch them.  The ride to the sheriff's office might be
>a rough one.

y'know, Mike, if anybody took the time to actually plot the church fires
on a map, they'd notice that they only occur in areas where there is no
strong CM presence...interesting how THAT little fact is never mentioned
on the news....

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:29 PDT 1996
Article: 21411 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:04:46 GMT
Message-ID: <834653086$12726@atype.com>
Subject: Re: yahoos in the woods
Lines: 31


In article <834617018$10174@atype.com>, Deena S
<72410.3526@CompuServe.COM> writes:

>how about common courtesy/decency instead of this incessant 
>"in-your-face" attitude? I’m not wanting a Pollyanna/white picket 
>fence type of existence, but there is a common good that should 
>prevail in a civilized society. Some people have forgotten this.

Hi Deena,

You are absolutely correct.  I think the initial exchange became heated so
quickly due to the anonymous nature of the original poster.  Most of us
have developed a healthy skepticism toward anonymous trolls by people who
refuse to identify themselves.  Indeed, sometimes we let our pent-up
frustration with these sorts of posters over ride our common sense in
responding to them.

That being said, you are most certainly right that common courtesy is a
neccessity, especially for us.  Because of the on-going smear campaign
against us in the mainstream media, we must be certain that all of our
dealings with the public occur in such a manner as to counteract that
propaganda.  By exercising common courtesy in all of our interactions with
others, we can leave those who actually meet us with a positive personal
experience in dealing with miltia members.  In leaving this positive
impression, we begin to reform our public image, and gain additional
support from non-committed members of the general public.  This is exactly
the type of support we will need in order to succeed in halting the
depredations of the federal government.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:30 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:05:25 GMT
Message-ID: <834653125$12760@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Bo Gritz
Lines: 12


In article <834548598$7463@atype.com>, firelt@ix.netcom.com (John Luebbers
) writes:

>The trouble is the JDL is our sworn enemy.

yo! John! care to explain the "our" in that sentence...as I understand it
the JDL is specifically intent on protecting Jewish people from the
depredations of anti-semites...if you're an antisemite then they sure are
YOUR enemy, but then so are WE. 

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:31 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:18:29 GMT
Message-ID: <834617909$10260@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Patriot Nazis, The List (# 1)
Lines: 12



Well, Mary Ann, I'm sure you feel better after that little episode.  Sorry
your boy friend didn't agree with you, but as a guy, I think I see why he
left.  It looks like you got hooked up with some weird people.  I must say
that I find it interesting that the same smear tactics you decry are the
ones you yourself have used in your post.  Oh well, I guess one has to
expect this from time to time - immature people whose relationships end
badly usually try to externalize blame in this manner.

Arlin H. Adams



From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:32 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:33:34 GMT
Message-ID: <834618814$10341@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 9


In article <834554045$7833@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

> (Jeez, sociology study using
>tanlines as a measurment-I can't write this with a straight face). 

Just wait till you get to grad school - you'll be able to do so AND
provide 12 cites to back you up! :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:33 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:18:35 GMT
Message-ID: <834653915$12818@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Sheeple
Lines: 48


In article <834587289$9009@atype.com>, "Wayne 'Ras' Wattley"
 writes:

>I don't have much love for the Militias myself, because you back the 
>wrong causes for the most part.

okay, and the primary sources of your information are????

>1 - David K and Waco. You know very well that the man sexually abused 
>young girls on the compound and that he set the fire and shot the people 
>on the inside before they were rescued.

you miss the point here Ras.  First off, do you feel that it's okay for
the government to use armored vehicles, tear gas, and paramilitaries
against it's citizens?  


>2 - Freemen . You know also that these people have committed crimes 
>against Banks and small business people when they were going around with 
>counterfeit Money Orders, I mean they gilted a gun dealer and they are 
>Tax evaders. Now they are hiding behind women and children as David K was

>doing in Waco.

uh, Ras, the militias haven't defended the freemen.  However this comment
of yours does raise a few other questions, such as:  'gilt' is an archaic
past tense form of the word meaning "to coat or plate with gold"...you
might want to try that one again?  Then of course there's the question of
'hiding behind women' - does this mean that you don't believe women are
capable of full participation in society?  or perhaps in their own
defense?  

>3 - You hate Blacks and Jews because you say they are "taking away your 
>homeland and stealing all of your jobs".

LOL!  tell you what, Ras, try checking out a couple of the Libertarian web
sites...then come back and lecture me on what a racist I am...or just pull
my posts out of dejanews...you really don't have a clue about us, do you?

>I can go on including your view on Hitler and Nazi Germany. Do you really

>think its the media,no. Its where you stand on the issues.  

No Ras, it's the media...and gullible folks like you who don't seem to
want to take the time to think for themselves...

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:34 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:33:17 GMT
Message-ID: <834618797$10325@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 70


In article <834554031$7817@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>Where did you teach?

Virginia.

> Comparing the suburban Chicago public high schools
>(Evanston, New Trier, Glenbrook, and Niles townships) with the area
>Catholic high schools (Loyola, Regina, Marrilac) gives results more
>consistent with  what Mr. Wizard is saying here.

Okay, Mike, let's look at this for a minute.  Can you speak to average
class sizes or percentage of class periods spent on administrative and
disciplinary functions vs education?  You, my friend learned in that
environment because you are above average intelligence...I would submit
that you learned in spite of the system and not because of it.


> Typically, the Catholic
>schools had better overall lit and general world history classes, but had
>their asses handed to them in sciences (biology and astronomy
especially),
>U.S. and non-Western history, foreign languages (except for Latin and
>Attic Greek, predictably), math (especially at Trig-precalculus and
>above), vocational-technical (none of the Catholic schools seemed to even
>bother.

could you give some examples, especially in the areas of history and the
sciences...this certainly is *not* the case, out here...except in the
voc-tech area....

> Personally, I think the four-year Welding/Metals sequence was the
>high point of my time in high school),

the question here, Mike is: *should it have been*?

> and above all, in freedom. I though
>ETHS was a repressive environment that stifled individuality and
>creativity, and attempted to do little more than breed good little
>conformists. Then I saw the private schools, which were even worse.

hmm, I need to ask you to define freedom in this context...just so we're
all talking from the same definitions.


>Not all that much, as applied to Illinois. While parochial schools in IL
>do set more stringent behavioral standards, these standards usually have
a
>result of teaching non-thinking compliance with the norms instead of
>teaching responsibility and accountability.

examples please?


>In my folks case, they honored my wish to be allowed to think and believe
>more freely than a parochial school would have allowed. As I am not
>religious by any standard, I would not have fit in at a parochial school.

okay, now THAT is a reason I understand.


>So, what should our kids know by the time they get diplomas?

Mike, my friend, you have just asked the $64,000 question (and I've just
shown my age again...).

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:34 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <834618786$10309@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Patriot Nazis, The List (# 1)
Lines: 7


In article <834573807$8543@atype.com>, hk157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

>You must run around with the KWN's, not the REAL militia.

careful Janet!  truth is something she's seeking to avoid! :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:35 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:18:48 GMT
Message-ID: <834653928$12834@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Sheeple
Lines: 25


In article <834614284$10024@atype.com>, joe@junior.wariat.org (Joseph T.
Adams) writes:

>John Luebbers (firelt@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>
>: Unfortunatley some militias are becoming sheeple. The ohio militia, The
>: michigan militia, The MOM, and so on.
>
>Translation: the members and leaders of the mainstream Militia are
>working for positive change, through peaceful and lawful means, but
>John Luebbers doesn't like that.  He apparently wants an immediate,
>violent, and illegal solution instead.  The groups Mr. Luebbers has
>named represent over a hundred thousand active members, but by golly,
>he knows better than all of them.  

Actually Joe, he appears to be just another neonazidiot who fantasizes
about ruling the ruins of a country shattered by direct confrontation
between the fedgov and the combined strength of the militias.  The really
funny part of this is that these supremacist types actually think other
people will *follow* them, if you can believe that nonsense!  Since once
again reality contradicts everything the supremacists believe, he feels
frustrated.  Let's hope he stays that way.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:36 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <834653883$12786@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Bo Gritz
Lines: 7


In article <834562084$8269@atype.com>, Robert Ireland 
writes:

>What's the matter isn't there any room over at alt.nazi.idiots?

maybe they exiled him for forming coherent sentences?? :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:37 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:18:16 GMT
Message-ID: <834653896$12802@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Hitler and gun control
Lines: 20


In article <834614309$10040@atype.com>, Joseph Pothier
 writes:

> I have already determined, 
>based on the secondary literature, that the 1938 law actually 
>liberalized gun control compaired to the 1928 law. 

Hi Joseph,

I think you need to do a little research into the actual conditions which
existed in Germany under the Weimar Republic.  While a number of very
stringent laws were in fact passed, the German government knew very well
that it was incapable of enforcing any of them.  While the 1938 nazi gun
law may, on paper, appear to be less stringent, the enforcement capacity
of the nazi police state was such that there was virtually no possibility
of avoidance.  In other words, don't just look at the words - look at
their effects on the people, okay?

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 14 11:37:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:03:09 GMT
Message-ID: <834652989$12646@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Racism in militias
Lines: 17


In article <834546916$7161@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

> but rather see themselves in a whole different
>light, politically speaking.

:-) grow lamps?? :-)  (sorry, couldn't resist)


>FWIW, conservationism is a lot more conservative once you think about it.
>It _IS_ about protecting our heritage, and honoring the living parts of
>our homeland besides us. What could be more conservative than that?

certainly voluntary conservation is a reflection of conservative values,
however government enforced conservation is not.



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 14 11:37:29 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:18:57 GMT
Message-ID: <834653937$12850@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Patriot Nazis, The List (# 1)
Lines: 15


In article <834611603$9959@atype.com>, bogart1@earthlink.net (Tim Hill)
writes:

>>2) Trochman publically embraced J.J. Johnson, a black man, on national
>>TV, while, at the same time, vehemently scolding the snow-white
>>"reporter" as being "Treasonous."
>
>PR
>
>Jewish and Gypsy capos hearded their brothers and sisters to the ovens. 
>There will always be a few unprincipaled people who sell out. 

I think you've just achieved a personal worst here tim...hmm, I take it
you *don't* live in Ohio...


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 14 11:37:29 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 5:03:11 GMT
Message-ID: <834642191$11844@atype.com>
Subject: Re: plausible reasons for instituting martial law
Lines: 8


In article <834622407$10641@atype.com>, rykan1@aol.com (RYK an1) writes:

>Invasions by Aliens-preferably from another planet.

hey Lance!  would that make them alien illegal aliens or illegal alien
aliens?? :-)
just wonderin'


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 14 11:37:30 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 14:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <834677283$13745@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there's
Lines: 11


In article <834653108$12744@atype.com>, alnev@midtown.net (Al) writes:

>It's never happened to anyone I know, and I strongly suspect
>that the people who fall victim to this sort of thing either look like
>criminals or act like criminals - and shit happens to them.

uh, Al, who decides what a criminal looks like?  who decides what a
criminal acts like?  Just curious.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 14 11:37:31 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 5:03:24 GMT
Message-ID: <834642204$11870@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Where do militias sta
Lines: 72


In article <834446948$3478@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>  Except that in the proper use of the political term 'liberal', we 
>libertarians (small 'l') are ultra-liberal..We want to radically 
>liberalize the economy and freemarkets..We also want to radically
>liberalize social policy to reverse the police state.

except that nobody here in the US uses the term that way anymore, so I'll
stick with libertarian, for myself anyway.

>a> none the less, that's not going to change any time soon...so
>a> we have to work with what's available, frankie...if we sit
>a> around waiting for an optimal situation, the statists are going
>a> to eat us all for lunch.
>
>  I'm surprised they're not full already!

those who seek power over others are never satisfied...

>  a> If we can't have a true libertarian
>a> society, than a strict constitutionalist one, with a federal
>a> government stripped to the bare minimum, is still going to be
>a> orders of magnitude better than the situation today. 
>
>  I agree.Convincing people to vote in a libertarian-minded 
>leader into office is one thing, getting libertarian-minded
>people into congress is another.Oh well four more years of
>status-quo for now.

maybe...there are a number of different groups who seem to see a profit in
destabilizing the situation - let's just hope we can keep them all at bay.

>   Problem is, if America were to return to a bare-bones 
>constitutional form of government then the government would 
>have to admit it was seriously wrong, it would have to repeal
>prohibition, it would have to repeal state laws against militias,
>it would have to free most of its prisoners and accept
>responsibility for the deaths of millions worldwide.

true enough.  it would certainly take more intestinal fortitude than one
normally sees in politicians...

>In the case of your scenario 
>all the media would need to do would be to only interview 
>police, and refuse to interview people who contradict them. 
>Most likely in your scenario it would be a massacre of 
>witnesses and cameramen along with the militia protestors. 

exactly!  you wouldn't *believe* how hard this concept was to get across
to some folks!  for all of the media that people are exposed to, the vast
majority seem to have very little knowledge about what goes into making
that 'news' video they see....

> The media is an 
>accomplice to murder time and time again. Most often by just 
>not reporting it.

uh, frankie, they're out to sell toilet paper, not report the
facts...violence, as they say, sells.

>  She was pretty gung-ho about it for a while, when she had 
>her radio show. I remember quite a few people calling in saying 
>they would join the march.

oh please don't remind me - I was stuck in a rural area with a rather
pricey long distance company as my only access to the net - I don't even
want to think about what my phone and internet bills were like for that
time period - it seemed like every time we got things quieted down
somebody else would pop out of the woodwork, and the whole mess would
start up again...oh well, goes with the territory I guess.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 14 11:37:32 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 7:48:29 GMT
Message-ID: <834652109$12594@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia Statutes
Lines: 31


In article <834560283$8106@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>So what?  Your troop also might have learned how to tie knots; that
doesn't 
>make you a sailor.  What about urban assault tactics?  How to defeat
armored 
>vehicles?  Sniping?  Combined arms tactics?  Did your troop do that?  If
not,
>then shut up.

hmm, let's see, here in VA The Boy Scouts participate in such activities
as:

rimfire and centerfire rifle marksmanship (you, know, mark, like
'sniping')
capture the flag ('small unit tactics')
nature walks ('patroling')
nature photography ('recon')
and then of course all of those nasty lessons in wilderness survival
skills.

The point of all this mark, is not that the Boy Scouts are paramilitary
(well, except to the way way w-a-y out in left field types) but rather
that they could be *construed* to be paramilitary under many of the
overgeneral militia statutes...I realize that this knocks your stated
rationale for running the militia witchhunt web site into a cocked hat,
but hey maybe if you just came out and admitted that you're simply trying
to get enough publication credits to be offered a tenured position
somewhere, someone might be able to help you...


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 14 11:37:33 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <834655684$13019@atype.com>
Subject: Re: CBS, You're gonna love this!!
Lines: 37


In article <834631400$11221@atype.com>, firebird@gate.net (Awesome1)
writes:

>Cut to the New black kitty cats (or something like that). 

uh, it's the New Black Panthers, and although they're independents, not
CM, they are folks banding together for the armed defense of their
community, which makes them a militia too.  I don't think we need to be
critical just because they manage to get some positive press, y'know?

>They are said to have
>THREATENED VIOLENCE, seen carrying those mean assault weapons we've heard
>so much about. But guess what, you won't belive this, cut to shot of
>baret wearing ar-15 toting, fatigue wearing, WHAT? 

uh, since most of us didn't see the report, I'm not sure how the 'what'
fits in there, but why does it bother you so much that CBS was forced to
give them some positive press?  

>WELLLLLL last shot of
>this guy and the Voice over says he is "a frightened American" Well I
>don't see any bias here do you?? We're all right wing HATE GROUPS, they
are
>merely frightened Americans.

uh, man, you expect the mainstream media to turn around and stop playing
pseudoliberal hypocrisy games all of a sudden?  Of course they're biased
against us!  does that mean we have to begrudge another group the fact
that they managed to communicate something positive right through the
bias.

> If it gets any deeper, well it can't.

oh, don't bet on that - this is an election year, after all....

Arlin Adams


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Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 8:03:48 GMT
Message-ID: <834653028$12678@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Response to Joe Adams
Lines: 42


Hi John,

Arlin here, not Joe, but I have some questions, okay?

>The Montana Constitution makes it illegal for the fbi to operate in the
>republic of Montana with out the permission of the governor or state
>legislature.

Since Montana was formed directly as a state, and at no time existed
independent from the control of the federal government, please explain the
use of the term 'republic' in relation to the State of Montana.  (If I
missed this explanation, I'm sorry)

> Have they obtained this permission?

under current *federal* law the only time a federal agency would need to
seek permission from a state would be in a case where the federal agency
wished to intercede in a matter in which the *state* would normally be the
interested party.  Since there are allegations of securities fraud, which
is a federal responsibility, they are acting within the limits of the law
as it currently stands.

> Also the supreme court
>has ruled that law enforcement is the responsibility of individual
states. 

John the way the legislation currently stands there are different
responsibilities for federal state and local law enforcement.  While I am
not a lawyer, I do not know of any blanket ruling by the supremes which
invalidates federal law enforcement authority within the states.  If you
know of any such please post it to the newsgroup.

>Also what statute created the FBI? None. They are an illegal
>institution.

uh, John, the fbi was authorized by congress over 60 years ago...as such
it is a federally established agency which is authorized by federal law. 
Go to the Thomas web server and do a search in the United States Code on
the term 'Federal Bureau of Investigation', for the relevant cites.

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 19:18:07 GMT
Message-ID: <834779887$18286@atype.com>
Subject: Fires at both Black and White Churches
Lines: 54


Copyright © 1996 Nando.net
Copyright © 1996 The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (Jun 14, 1996 1:41 p.m. EDT) -- By early next week, the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
hopes to have details on nearly two-dozen fires at white churches it is
investigating as it probes more-publicized blazes at more than 30
mostly-black Southern churches.
As the ATF struggles to help solve the blazes at black churches that have
taken place since January 1995, bureau records show the agency also is
probing arsons at 23 other non-black churches that have taken place during
the same time period.  A copy of the list, which was distributed to ATF
agents around the country earlier this week, was obtained by The
Associated Press.
While the June 7 fact sheet provides extensive details on the cases
involving fires at black churches, it includes no analysis of the other
church fires. But it includes a section listing all "open ATF church fire
investigations nationwide since January 1995." It lists a total of 48, 35
of which occurred this year.
In a separate category, the sheet said 25 of the fires have been at black
churches, which means 23 occurred in others; the number of fires in black
churches has since grown to 34, with another blaze at a black congregation
in Oklahoma on Thursday currently under investigation.
"That was an internal document, prepared for us and the Treasury
Department, and I realize that things like this only beg more questions,"
John Limbach, an ATF spokesman, said Thursday. "We're trying to pull our
data together, and we should be able to answer some of the questions about
those other fires by early next week."
While it was unclear where the non-black churches were located, civil
rights groups tracking Southern church burnings said they have found few
examples of anything but black churches going up in flames.
"If white church fires were on the increase, with racism as a reason, we'd
be on it in a heartbeat," said Angie Lowry of the Montgomery, Ala.-based
Southern Poverty Law Center, which studies racial issues. "I'm not seeing
it here in Alabama, and we're not seeing it anywhere else."
But one ATF official, speaking only on condition of anonymity, said one
problem with keeping track of church burnings is that until recently the
federal government did not keep such records on its arson investigations.
"If you go back five years, you won't find any more evidence that we've
investigated a church burning than you would that we've investigated a
warehouse fire," the ATF official said.
But even before President Clinton ordered the ATF to help solve the string
of arsons at black churches, the agency
increasingly was becoming involved in those cases -- which means the
agency likely is investigating more black-church fires than other types.
And in some cases, state figures tell another tale.In Alabama, for
example, a string of fires at black churches in the western part of the
state has drawn headlines. But state fire marshal John Robison said there
have been 37 arson fires in churches there since 1990 -- 19 at black
churches, 18 at white.
However, Lowry said, the fact that white churches greatly outnumber black
churches in Alabama means that, in a
proportional sense, black churches are burning with greater frequency.


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun 15 16:28:31 PDT 1996
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Date: Sat, 15 Jun 96 1:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <834801483$19268@atype.com>
Subject: MESSAGE FOR THE HUMAN MODERATOR!!!
Lines: 13


Hi,

one of our regular posters, Typhanee@aol.com,  contacted me concerning a
problem she believes she's having, in that posts she sent in a week or
more ago haven't yet shown up on the aol server...any ideas on what might
be happening?  All I know is that she doesn't even know how to cancel a
post, so she obviously hasn't cancelled any of her own....

Thanks,
Arlin H. Adams
ahabiz@aol.com
ahadams@ix.netcom.com


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun 17 15:00:26 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 22:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <834965283$24273@atype.com>
Subject: Re: JDL replies
Lines: 19


In article <834667383$13312@atype.com>, dcg3@ix.netcom.com (DAVID GROSSACK
) writes:

> I have been legal counsel to Boston JDL for the past 15 years and 
>   also occasionaly advised the late Rabbi Kahane. People who know me
>   that I am quite supportive of the militia movement and expend 
>   substantial energies for Patriot causes .

Hi David,

No problem...sometimes it's hard for us to tell all the players without a
score card, y'know? :-)
any ideas on why the supremacists keep trying to butt in over here?  I
think we've made it preeminently clear that they are NOT welcome...just
interested in your thoughts.

Best
Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 16:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835030084$26570@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Black helicopters vx radio talks shows
Lines: 20


In article <834679999$13907@atype.com>, Citizen.K@freeway.net writes:

>They
>frighten the farm animals, drivers, and if one of those
>pilots ever sneezes, they will crash into populated areas!
>I don't care what color they are, just their flying "attitudes."

The thing to do in this case is to copy down the complete tail number. 
Then you, and all of your neighbors take turns calling the air base
operations office and complaining about that airplane, referring to it by
that number...if that doesn't do the trick, try to get one of the local
television stations to come out with a camera crew and do an
'investigative report'.  You'll probably have to do something like this at
least once a year, but it keeps the LT's from yahooing most of the time,
anyway.

Arlin Adams
[who once got to observe a couple of fast movers a LOT closer than he
might have wished....] 


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun 17 15:00:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 16:48:15 GMT
Message-ID: <835030095$26586@atype.com>
Subject: Re: yahoos in the woods
Lines: 27


In article <834685384$14073@atype.com>, hk157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

>I'd like to mention another side of that coin.
>Ok, some guys were a bit rude when their relatively harmless
>"war games" were interrupted. And it is a bit upsetting to be
>on a quiet stroll through the woods and come upon this kind of
>activity. (heck, I'd probably want to join them. sounds like fun)
>but, the kind of sleazy, sick stuff that goes on and is condoned
>by the super-righteous politically correct folk makes me sick to my
>stomach.

Hi Janet,

I understand. Unfortunately the PC crowd also control the propaganda/media
machine. The concern I was trying to express in my post was one involving,
uh, I guess you'd call it 'public relations'.  We've got a real uphill
battle in that department, and every little thing we do to leave
*individuals* thinking "hey, that person wasn't anything at all like what
the tv told me about militia members" has a positive effect for us.  It
may just be a small effect - one person at a time, but if the growth of
our movement proves nothing else, it is that enough 'one person's at a
time can make all the difference in the world.  make sense?

Best
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue Jun 18 12:05:44 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 17:03:06 GMT
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Subject: Re: Militia Statutes
Lines: 13


In article <834680039$13939@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>You guys have no idea how hysterically desperate you look while you try
to come
>up with ways to make the Boy Scouts look like a paramilitary
organization.  

mark I realize you can be a little slow on the uptake when asked to deal
with concepts which exist outside of your rigid paradigm, but there is no
need avoid acknowledging an obvious truth, much less mock those speaking
that truth, unless you truly fear the logical consequences thereof.


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue Jun 18 12:05:45 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 19:33:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Jim Mcratty
Lines: 19


In article <834712060$14926@atype.com>, firelt@ix.netcom.com (John
Luebbers ) writes:

>I agree with you 100%. The line was erased when most signees realized
>they may actually have to eat their words. But they surearent afraid of
>the tv camera. This is a black day in the militia movement. The MOM and
>the Michigan Militia may as well fold their tents. They are of no use
>to us.

Hi John,

as I recall, the Declaration was intended to prevent another
massacre...which, in point of fact it did.  It most certainly was NOT
intended to keep folks from having to justify their actions (i.e. all that
bad paper they are supposed to have written) in court.  Hmm, we obviously
interpretted this very differently...

Arlin


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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 16:19:13 GMT
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Subject: Re: Freemen - A Disgrace
Lines: 10


In article <834692584$14273@atype.com>, MCH 
writes:

>They're a disgrace to America, and to all the legitimate
>activist organizations.

all right, *I* was not the one who left the door open this time...and I'm
danged well not going to be exiled to marks site, I hope certain parties
are clear on that! :-)


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 18:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835036384$27003@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Hitler and gun control
Lines: 83


In article <834715182$15245@atype.com>, Joseph Pothier
 writes:

> have already 'looked into' the situation in the Weimar Republic. 
>In fact I have two graduate level seminars on Interwar Germany to 
>my credit. I do not need you to tell me what I need to research and 
>what I do not. How many courses have YOU had in the Weimar period?

courses? nada!  just read off and on about that time frame over the years
- it's always interested me because of the impossible position of the
Weimar Government - how do you rebuild a shattered country, suffering
under punative war reparations, when there is no apparent consensus about
where the country should be going or how it should get there?  Didn't mean
to insult you by the way, I've just gotten used to dealing with mark, who
thinks only in terms of paper and not people.  My appologies for the
perceived insult.

>
>Your post continues: "While a number of very stringent laws were in 
>fact passed, the German government knew very well that it was 
>incapable of enforcing any of them."
>
>I presume you refer to the 1928 German gun control law. The only 
>response I have to this statement is the enforcement was strict 
>enough that Hitler was at wits end to arm the SA in 1930. [SOURCE: 
>Otto Wagener, *Hitler--- Memoirs of a Confident,* Edited by Henry 
>Ashby Turner, Jr., and Translated by Ruth Hein (New Haven and 
>London [UK]: Yale University Press, 1978), pp. 233-238.] 

interesting, impressions from my reading (although this was a few years
ago) were that the SA were, still armed, though no better than their
communist arch-rivals, certainly.  


>That statement is bad logic all the way around.The 1938 law was not 
>only a liberization but it was designed to (1) put firearms into 
>the hands of the civilian population (2) in order to train the male 
>population in firearms use before induction into the army.

it was intended to put firearms in the hands of the *male* *aryan* portion
of the population, as you stated, in order to provide some pre-military
training.

> The only 
>thing the Nazis were strict on was that the civilian male 
>population show up for firearms training. The Nazis were most 
>clearly not interested in restricting firearms ownership after 
>1938. 

uh, more correctly Joseph, I think that they were not actively interested
in restricting firearms ownership by the 'aryan' portions of the
population.  I think that's a very critical difference.  Even that isn't
absolutely true, as Goebbels made a point in one of his speaches that
firearms ownership was primarily intended for such groups as the
Stahlhelm.  (for those readers who aren't familiar with the inter-war
period - Stahlhelm [steel helmet] was a nazi sponsored veteran's
organization.)

>You might be able to point to the restriction on firearms ownership 
>by Jews--- that would be standard NRA/militia mytho-history. In 
>point of fact that approach would be invalid. German Jews were 
>forbidden from possessing firearms, but it was not by the 1938 
>Weapons Law.

Nor did the 1938 law in any way 'liberalize' firearms ownership by Jewish
civilians.


>You also might be able to point to the disarmament of the Social 
>Democrats and the communists,but that was done by the end of 
>1934--- long before the 1938 law.

and again, these persons were not helped at all by the 'liberalization' of
the 1938 law.  I don't understand how a law which was specifically
designed to arm only one select part of the populace can be considered a
liberalization....

Arlin Adams






From ahabiz@aol.com Tue Jun 18 12:05:48 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 4:03:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: What should kids know? (was: RE:50 Top Ten Demands )
Lines: 17


In article <834742083$16671@atype.com>, gt7030c@acmey.gatech.edu (Jolly
Rancher) writes:

>How about replacing the words "recieve passing grade in" with "learn"?

hmm, since I helped open this can of worms in my discussion with Mike M.,
I guess I might as well shake it up a little. :-)

two questions:

1.  how do you measure learning?

2.  what do you do with those folks who are *unable* to learn a certain
subject?

Arlin


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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 6:33:14 GMT
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Subject: Re: Strange Coincedence of Something Else
Lines: 22


In article <834722381$15843@atype.com>, rykan1@aol.com (RYK an1) writes:

>I realize that I made several mistakes in handeling this situation,
>especially since I should have detained everybody until I had been shown
>ID's with which I could have determined who everybody was including the
>mystery man in the suit.But that is what happens when one is half
asleep..

Actually, Lance, I think you pretty much did the right thing.  First off,
there were 3 of them, wide awake, and you standing there half asleep in
your underwear...the last thing you wanted to do was give them time to
react, the odds were *not* in your favor if they were who you think they
were, and they'd been through training...you might have gotten 1 or 2, but
chances are they were wearing vests.  Even if they had cooperated, what do
you think the chances were of getting *legitimate* identification off of
them?  nope, throwing them out and keeping them out probably was the best
course under the circumstances...depending on how friendly the local LEO's
are, you might have considered reporting the incident...but other than
that, I think you did pretty well, all things considered.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue Jun 18 12:05:49 PDT 1996
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 16:33:11 GMT
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Subject: Re: Mafia is militia?
Lines: 15


In article <834697083$14426@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>I oppose the always illegitimate and in many states illegal neo-militia 
>movement.  I will always oppose vigilantes armed with weapons.
>
>

wait a minute mark!  a couple of weeks back you were making a big
distinction between the militias and vigilantes, what happened?  are we
now indistinguishable?

oh, and btw, there are very few historical records of vigilante actions by
people armed with something which was *not* a weapon....


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue Jun 18 12:05:50 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 3:33:17 GMT
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Subject: Re: Sheeple
Lines: 26


In article <834850983$20788@atype.com>, firebird@gate.net (Awesome1)
writes:

>if words in general were not self evident, why make signs like stop, no
>smoking.

Hi E.V.,

uh, actually you and John appear to be talking about two different things.
 What you're dealing with, in terms of such things as stop signs and no
smoking signs are commonly accepted symbols, and words.  This is very much
a cultural thing and depends on people being exposed to a common culture
with a common underlying value set.  What John is talking about is a
combination of psycho-linguistics, and language development.  In an
ultimate sense, many concepts aren't self-evident across cultures - a
quick example here:  to borrow from your example, in Mandarin Chinese it
is almost *impossible* to say 'no'...you can say something isn't something
else, or you can say something is false, but 'no' in the ultimate western
sense of the term doesn't really translate directly.  Now if one considers
all of the various subcultures here in the US, I think we can see how
different people do end up interpretting words, in fact entire concepts,
in radically different ways.

Just my 2 cents worth...
Arlin Adams


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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 4:18:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: What should kids know? (was: RE:50 Top Ten Demands )
Lines: 18


In article <834804183$19352@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>While completely brilliant in dealing with absolutes as represented in
>math and science classes, anything relating to communication was way
>beyond him.
>
>What do you do for someone like this? (Is idiot-savant the correct term?

Uh, no Mike, an idiot-savant is a completely different phenomena. 
Actually this sort of phenomena isn't that uncommon among folks who are
extremely gifted in a particular area.  What you do is insure that they
still get enough basic information and social skills to be able to
function in society, and then let them go at it in their primary skill
area...

Arlin 


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 3:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <835068785$28349@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Correspondence with typhanee@aol.com
Lines: 12


In article <834819483$19885@atype.com>, seneca@teleport.com (Rob) writes:

>I recently received, and sent, some email to/from some identified
>as typhanee@aol.com.

Hi Rob,

FYI the moderator is checking on forged cancellations that have happened
to several of us in the recent past.

Arlin Adams


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Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 9:33:28 GMT
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Subject: Re: Sheeple
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In article <834864483$21359@atype.com>, jdamato@hookomo.aloha.net (John
DAmato) writes:

>My position is that people are very smart.  We would have to be to do
what 
>we do, whether it's driving a car, raising children, or governing
ourselves.

Hi John,

Perhaps the point is that people are smart *when they choose to pay
attention to what they're doing*.  Obviously, from all three of your
examples, there are cases where people *didn't* pay attention to what they
were doing while driving a car (auto accidents), raising children
(unsocialized teenage gangs), or governing themselves (pick any political
issue and you can find examples of this).  What concerns many of us, then,
is that there seem to be a growing number of folks in this country who
simply choose NOT to pay attention to what's going on around them...it
*is* easier that way, after all....

Arlin Adams 


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In article <834767286$17574@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>"Jim Bob, thissere's Jake."

mark, before you start parodying the efforts of others, you might try
exerting some effort yourself...uh that's the NON-selfaggrandizing type of
effort I'm talking about here.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 6:33:51 GMT
Message-ID: <835079631$28890@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Sheeple
Lines: 11


In article <834673705$13492@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>The notion that the OUM, the MM and MOM represent "over a hundred
thousand 
>active members" is hysterically funny.

uh, mark, just because something engenders an hysterical reaction from
you, doesn't *neccessarily* mean it's funny...



From ahabiz@aol.com Wed Jun 19 12:49:53 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 19:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835124584$1832@atype.com>
Subject: Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL
Lines: 22


In article <834969786$24481@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>What happens when the paintball gets sucked into the offending chopper's
>intakes?

it ends up as a smudge of carbon on one of the turbine blades.  



>Or, if it misses, falls back to earth, and hits someone in the head. I
can
>believe that a paintball would reach 300 feet above ground, and the
>suckers can pick up some serious velocity on the way back. Could ruin
>someone's whole day.

hmm, given that someone would be firing over buildings at night, there is
probably little chance of this happening.  in any case, of course, one
should always make certain one's downrange area is clear of unintended
targets...shooter's responsibility.



From ahabiz@aol.com Wed Jun 19 12:49:53 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 6:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <835078683$28782@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Hitler and gun control
Lines: 14


In article <834721588$15702@atype.com>, bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les
Griswold) writes:

>B'sides, you're lying through your teeth.  Jews were NOT prohibited from
>OWNING firearms, just from DEALING in them.  They were permitted to own
>them for self-defence.

LOL so that's why they all went to the crematoria?  les, you've got to
learn that you're compatriots are the only ones who believe all of that
revisionist pseudohistory you folks espouse...the rest of us *do* have a
clue...

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <835069683$28411@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The One And Only Original Bill of Rights
Lines: 18


In article <834828507$20280@atype.com>, videopaul@aol.com (VideoPaul)
writes:

>Last time I looked, those same $900 troy ounces were worth less than $400
>now, today.
>  Kinda blows your argument about metals being worth more over time,
don;t
>it?

only if one is extremely myopic.  market spot prices tend to fluctuate,
but the purchasing power of a given quantity of hard currency generally
will increase over the long term.  The trick here, of course, is to wait
for a downward fluctuation in the market before making such a purchase.  I
might suggest a course in basic economics, Paul, it would help you
understand some of this stuff.

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 4:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <835073283$28572@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The Communism your teacher refuses to reveal:
Lines: 14


In article <834797930$19131@atype.com>, andrew.wicken@stonebow.otago.ac.nz
(Andrew Wicken) writes:

>The only reason capitalism (or more accuratly at
>the moment, *industrialist* capitalism) is better than the other isms
>is that technically you can moan about it (unless your employment
>contract has a "muzzle" clause). 

well we do have this individual liberty thing over here, too, Andrew. 
*and* we can take a risk and go into business for ourselves, which is
something generally frowned upon by socialism and communism...

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 6:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835077784$28721@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Spectatorship vs Participation
Lines: 11


In article <834854584$20991@atype.com>, comminc@fortnet.org (Archibald E.
Roberts) writes:

>concealed mattoids seek to dismantle social and political structures by
>which free men govern themselves 

okay, I'll bite, what's a "concealed mattoid" and what would it look like
if it *wasn't* concealed?

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 6:03:25 GMT
Message-ID: <835077805$28737@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia counter-terrorism
Lines: 16


In article <834853691$20949@atype.com>, dcinege@superlink.net (Dave
Cinege) writes:

>In <834822183$19982@atype.com>, hfinney@shell.portal.com (Oh Billy, no
do, no
>do !!) writes:
>>
>>Pitcavage, visit  your local Social Security Office to apply for
>>your obviously well deserved benefits.
>
>And let us know what office you're going to......
>
>Birds, stone, get the idea?

not to worry, folks, dave's just talking again...


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 9:33:09 GMT
Message-ID: <835090389$29222@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Sheeple
Lines: 17


In article <834863584$21293@atype.com>, firebird@gate.net (Awesome1)
writes:

>
>  Yeah words with meanings like DANGER, or RATTLE SNAKE. Just think of
the new
>understandings we could get if we treated a rattle snake, like, say a
dog.
>No need to hardwire any meanings to rattle snake.

uh, EV, there is no "hard wired" meaning for any word. In point of fact
there isn't any hardwired meaning for most of the concepts behind the
words.   That's why small children have to be supervised.

Arlin Adams



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 23:03:09 GMT
Message-ID: <835138989$2509@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Black helicopters vx radio talks shows
Lines: 10


In article <835064347$28118@atype.com>, firelt@ix.netcom.com (John
Luebbers ) writes:

>Hard to get tail numbers , Arlin, when there arent any.

Sorry John, I thought the original poster was talking about training
flights...not live mission aircraft.

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 9:33:09 GMT
Message-ID: <835176789$3733@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 23


In article <834994084$25481@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>Average class sizes were about equal between all of the schools, with two
>glaring exceptions. Phys. Ed. calsses at the private schools were
smaller,
>as they only had a one or two year requirement compared to the four-year
>requirement for public schools. Also, New Trier H.S. (public school from
a
>few relatively affluent suburbs) actually seemed to have smaller classes
>than any of the other schools.

Hi Mike,

Okay, I think I see the confusion.  first off, the public schools out here
are *very* different from the public schools that you describe...of course
you could probably tell that by my previous descriptions.  Also the
private/parochial schools out here are just as different.  ah well, I
guess that's what 'local control' is all about.  In any case.  I think you
were very lucky to go to school when and where you did.

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 6:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835165084$3322@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Black helicopters vx radio talks shows
Lines: 14


In article <835033699$26830@atype.com>, e142857@teleport.com (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>The same underlying "purpose" lies behind the ninja
>suited, non-badge/ID card carrying "LEO's": how can you sue someone
>or bring them to court if you can't ID them?

hmm, well I think that properly applied paintballs would work on the
choppers...maybe we ought to look at some type of indelible dye
application to use against the blackshirts...I remember a number of years
ago they used to market a powder that turned into indelible purple dye
when it came in contact with human sweat...wonder if they still make that
stuff....


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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 5:03:05 GMT
Message-ID: <835160585$3188@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The One And Only Original Bill of Rights
Lines: 12


In article <835034625$26944@atype.com>, videopaul@aol.com (VideoPaul)
writes:

>Not much of a standard, is it?

I think you need to define what you mean by a "standard".  Do you mean the
artificial standard the government maintained in the early part of this
century or do you mean a standard of value such that other things can be
measured against it?

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 11:18:24 GMT
Message-ID: <835183104$4312@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia counter-terrorism
Lines: 10


In article <835123706$1659@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>I try to spend more time fighting hate groups, but the hours I put into 
>maintaining The Militia Watchdog will have to do for now. 

hmm, well maybe if you stopped worrying about all of us CM types and
started worrying about the REAL hate groups out there, you might find
yourself more effective.


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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 18:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835209184$5959@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia counter-terrorism
Lines: 20


In article <835193889$5135@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>It doesn't take more than one or two blowhards like Mike Vanderboegh to
bring
>home the fact that the militias are real hate groups.  People like
Luebbers 
>only help.

I have yet to see Mike V. state anything that was not the truth.  I have
yet to see him make a racist statement.  I have yet to see *you*, mark,
factually refute any of his claims concerning militia activities.
In other words Mike may get a bit fiesty on occaision, but I really don't
see *him* as the blowhard in this equation.  

As for John, well, he represents a portion of the populists who have
become totally alienated from the mainstream, if you don't realize just
how large a segment of the population he represents, then I suggest you
may need to do a bit more research. 


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 14:04:16 GMT
Message-ID: <835193056$5097@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 315


Hello again Wiz,


In article <835185792$4375@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:
> No matter what I do to try to find a
>fair term, though, seems less than pleasing. Oh well, I apolgize in
>advance for any offense against anyone's religious beliefs.

hmm, my comments there were intended to encourage you to being more
specific.  As we've both noted in this discussion, there area wide
variations in religious beliefs even within the same religion, even as
there are wide variations in character between people of the same ethnic
derivation.  Thus, rather than seeking a redefinition of a generic term, I
was hoping you might begin to speak to specific observed instances by, oh,
say, location and denomination of the folks involved?  Just a thought.

>>American Catholic schools...Episcopalean, Lutheran, and Methodist 
>>parochial schools. There are also Quaker schools, although few in 
>>number, these have a long tradition of high standards (and tend to be 
>>quite liberal, to boot).
>
>I agree these groups have a relatively good history in academics in the
>U.S. and even some places abroad.

Okay, so then we can see that it is not religious schools, per se, which
are the problem.


>>I am familiar with a few schools in this area which use the 'Christian 
>>Academy' moniker, and my impression is that they are mostly either 
>>Baptist or Assembly of God - two of the more conservative Protestant
>>denominations...
>
>"conservative" may be an understatement ... these are also the two
>denominations with the highest local levels in anti-abortion protest and
>violence (including bombings and murders)

Since both the Baptists and the AOG are literalists, such protests would
be well within their theology.  As far as violence goes - what percentage
of the total Baptist and/or AOG population might actually be involved in
such violence?  1/2 of 1 percent, perhaps?  These are large
denominations...how do the percentages of violent activity by members of
these denominations stack up against percentages of violent crime
committed by members of the general public?  


>It would be if they weren't growing so fast while at the same time their
>religious wing is working to gut the public system. 

well, I can't speak for Florida, but up here in Virginia, ALL private
schools are going rapidly.  Oh, and (*ahem*) privatization of ALL
education is a plank of the *Libertarian* Party platform - and *we* don't
have a 'religious wing'.  You can check out any of the major libertarian
web sites, if you want to confirm this statement.

>>it certainly cannot be said to represent the entire spectrum of church 
>>supported education.
>
>I should hope not ... but it does represent a rapidly growing trend.

hmm, well school privatization certainly represents a rapidly growing
trend...perhaps in this instance I actually need to encourage you to look
at the *wider* picture - religious schools are simply one aspect of the
privatization movement.

>>Really Wiz, you need to be careful about over generalizing that way, 
>>you might get one of the liberal Methodists or Quakers mad at you, 
>>and some of them can talk your ear off, once they get rolling! :-)
>
>Gee, thanks for the warning. Uh, it's a little late, though. My World
>Religions professor about 15 years ago was a Methodist minister and while
>talking my ear off actually voiced many of the same complaints :-)

indeed, well, what can one expect from liberals?


>>data sources please? [re book burnings]
>
>Check back issues of the news originating in the SE U.S. and California,
I
>believe. I don't retain copies of all that stuff, but I'm sure a diligent
>research will turn it up if anyone cares to look.

hmm, number of instances?  compared to say, the 'record burnings' that
occured after the Beatles made the mistake of comparing themselves
favorably to Jesus on national television? 


>>in Virginia the Catholic schools are accreditted through the a
>>Catholic accreditation authority, not a state governmental authority. 
>
>my statement included factors beyond just the accreditation process such
>as competition with public schools ... this is not a factor to be lightly
>overlooked. In places where there are no public schools to set a
standard,
>religious schools don't seem to perform as well. Of course some might
>apply the old deterministic arguments that this is just a reflection of
>the "inferior" cultures in those areas, however, I don't see it that way.

okay, while I haven't seen anything one way or the other on performance in
areas without public schools, I do agree that competition is always good! 
Of course such competition could just as easily occur between private
religious schools and private sectarian schools without any need for the
government whatsoever.

>
>>Second, the current per pupil expenditures in the District of Columbia
>>public schools average around $9,000 per year, while the parochial
>schools
>>are operating on about 1/3 of that.  
>
>And we all know how typical DC is of the nation at large :-)

DC is actually quite similar to portions of NYC, inner city Boston,
Baltimore, portions of LA, and so on - DC is just slightly more corrupt
and  this ends up wasting an extra grand or two per pupil per year, as
compared to the other major urban areas. 

>>Third, there is no need to compete with the public school system, 
>>since the latter is in such abysmal shape that any decent education 
>>provider automatically shows it up.
>
>Oh, there _is_ a need to compete when public schools are available. Never
>underestimate the business undertone of religionist ventures.

I don't understand this statement, would you please explain it?

>>The parochials schools, supported by parents who are STILL 
>>required to pay taxes in support of public schools they do not 
>>use, are doing more, with less money, and generally doing it 
>>better (and SAFER) than their public school counterparts.
>
>Better? Safer? Is that why so many of the violent pro-lifers have
>backgrounds in the religionist educational system?

okay now Wiz, once again, what percentage of the total population of folks
who have "backgrounds in the religionist educational system" are violent? 
How does this compare with the percentage of violent folks coming out of
the public school systems?  

> It seems some basic
>values are not being to such people by those systems. As far as the
>continuation of taxes? All of society benefits by broad-based and equally
>available education, thus they SHOULD be taxed even if not using it.
>Believe me, even they benefit from the literacy of the person  behind the
>counter at Burger King.

Okay, this is a fundamental difference between Libertarians, and liberals
- we believe there is no such thing as "all of society" - there are only
people.  People should never be forced to pay for services NOT rendered,
thus such taxation constitutes nothing more than robbery perpetrated by
those who wish to continue the existing system.  Believe me, even your
family could benefit, were such robbery not taking place.  [see, Wiz, two
can play this propaganda game :-)]

>>there is no sane reason that it could not easily be scrapped in 
>>favor of vouchers tomorrow
>
>Right. We could have the black churches run their schools, and the white
>churches theirs. The Hindus could go to one school, and the Moslems
>another. What a deal! Bet that would please Huber no end.

hold on a minute Wiz, who said anything about religious schools being the
*only* private school alternative?  *ahem* I certainly didn't.  While I
agree that there are many teachers currently in the public school system
who could not possibly survive in a competitive market, they could
certainly be replaced, and the secular private schools would be all the
better for it.


>>most church supported schools are either drawing
>>additional funding from their supporting congregations, or 
>>barely break even.
>
>12 yrs of a minor loss (if even true) as opposed to 60 yrs of tithing
....
>sounds like a pretty good Return on Investment to me.

Oh, the need for funding beyond the level provided by tuition is quite
common, indeed almost universal, in parochial schools.  There are
exceptions, but most of them tend to more toward the far liberal side of
the political spectrum.  I don't understand your remark about return on
investment - could you elaborate a little more please?

>>all schools should be selective.  It is NOT the school's job to 
>>socialize or discipline students
>
>Gee ... then why'd I receive the snide comment a few posts back about
>getting rapped on the knuckes by a nun? I guess others see it
differently.

let me clarify my previous statement.  Religious schools are inherently
aligned with a particular moral or religious outlook.  That is one of the
primary reasons parents choose such schools for their children.  However,
it is not the job of any other type of school to socialize or discipline
students - that is a parental responsibility.

>>It is also NOT the school's job to act as a holding pen for
>>disaffected youth.
>
>Good point ... I'd forgotten ... many countries that only have religious
>schools have a high number of street children, child prostitutes, and
>forced child labor. Thanks for reminding me of another reason why
>privatization of the schools is not a good idea.

Ah, so you believe that rather than dealing with the actual causes of such
things as child prostitution and forced child labor, you'd rather  pay to
simply have the kids held somewhere?  and that you believe that you are
empowered to force others to pay for this as well?

>>Based on the nature of what part of which religion, Wiz?
>
>How about the refusal on the part of some religionists to allow kids in
>public schools to be taught about Hindu culture because of their
>"religious" opposition? I'm sure the CC folks will proudly provide plenty
>of other examples.

I certainly have never seen this happen.  

>>Here in Virginia, the Virginia Catholic Education Association has 
>>already succeeded in that regard. [removing minimum standards]
>
>Funny, you say this like it's a good thing. So now they have no
standards?
>Or were they misguided before and thought the minimum standards were all
>that they should achieve? If so, that sounds like the same problem as the
>public schools.

No, sorry, what I meant was that the VCEA has succeeded in establishing
it's own standards, rather than having statist standards crammed down
their collective throats.  

>>uh, Wiz, no one has yet succeeded in eliminating public funding 
>
>No, but they have been successful in ensuring that bonds don't pass, and
>so on, so that facilities and funding do not keep pace with the
>demographics. Thus, for a certain portion of the student population
>funding has de facto been eliminated. The public system doesn't have the
>luxury of shutting out kids like the for-profit schools do, so this
>ultimately works out to just less money per student. Again, ample
>instances are found in the news. 

And we Libertarians will continue to fight all such coercive and illegal
taxation.

>Vouchers are simply another religionist
>ploy to defund the public system even further thus setting up a perpetual
>cycle to make them always "appear" better, though in reality the entire
>quality of education across the board will likely decay.

*ahem* Vouchers are a LIBERTARIAN idea, which some religious groups have
chosen to support as well.


>>uh, I'm still not clear on this term 'religionist' Wiz.  The way you use
>>it looks an awful like the way the klan types use the 'n' word, I must
>>say... or do we in fact all look alike to you?
>
>Only when they attempt indoctrination or conversion by swordpoint :-) 
>(see intro statement above)

ah, so we're really only talking about a tiny fraction of the entire
population.  Why then such sweeping generalizations?


>
>>because it's terminally broken, and as long as the government 
>>continues to run it, an appropriate fix will NOT be possible...much
>>less cost effective.
>
>RIGHT! So let's not cut and run to support for-profit religionist
schools,
>let's get the community in its entirety together in fixing the public
>schools and decentralizing some of the control.

again Wiz, the vast majority of religious schools are operated only with
the assistance of their supporting congregations...I have no idea where
you got the impression it was otherwise. 

No government controled school can be fixed.  Bureaucracies are inherently
corrupt and as long as they are run by human beings, will never be
otherwise.  There is also no such thing as 'the community in it's
entirety'.  That is a common statist propaganda ploy used to justify
coercive taxation of large groups of people who simply live in the same
geographic region.  There is no larger community, only the many small
communities and individuals who associate by conscious choice.

>
>>The 'sheeple' discussion generally centers on the current products 
>>of public schools, Wiz...
>
>Not to all folks ... some of us see many religionists as very, very well
>indoctrinated followers with minimal or no capacity for independent,
>rational thought ... the old, "if it ain't in the Bible, it ain't so"
type
>of attitude, you know?

again, what percentage of the total religious school population does this
reflect? now let's compare that to the portion of the general population
which has minimal or no capacity for independent, rational thought and
operates on the old "if it ain't on the 7 o'clock news it ain't so" type
of attitude...you know?


> I doubt we'll ever resolve the difference in this forum, so
>perhaps the best we can do is work to make our individually preferred
>schools/systems as fair and effective as possible.

Actually, I think this dialog has been quite effective in pointing out
just how divergent the world views of various groups in this country have
become. :-)

Arlin Adams



From ahabiz@aol.com Wed Jun 19 12:50:05 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 18:33:14 GMT
Message-ID: <835209194$5975@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Joseph Sobran's "In Our Hands"
Lines: 18


In article <835196602$5351@atype.com>, firelt@ix.netcom.com (John Luebbers
) writes:

>in the May 27th issue of The New York Times, Ari Shavit, an Israeli
>>columnist, reflected sorrowfully on the wanton Israeli killing of more
>>than 100 Lebanese civilians in April: "We killed them out of a certain
>>naive hubris. Believing with absolute certitude that now, with the
>White
>>House, the Senate, and much of the American media in our hands, 

a.  I'd want to see the original of this article.

b.  I'd want to know more about Shavit, and what particular political axes
he has to grind.  He does seem to have an ego, but his grasp of reality is
seriously lacking.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 20 11:22:14 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 14:03:45 GMT
Message-ID: <835193025$5045@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 10


In article <835185842$4479@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>One thing the "beltway bandits" and others of the geographic region
>(including those in Congress) seem to forget is that the beltway region
is
>not typical of anywhere else. Period.

parents are still parents, Wiz, and kids are still kids.


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 20 11:22:15 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 19:18:26 GMT
Message-ID: <835211906$6200@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Black helicopters vx radio talks shows
Lines: 38


In article <835208285$5921@atype.com>, e142857@teleport.com (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>Ah, hmmmm, and I suppose the "blackshirts" would just go along with this
>"dye job" in the spirit of good natured fun and not beat the crap out of
you.
>adding a charge of "assaulting a police officer" to the list of your
>"offences"?
>Seeing that the cops in Portland, OR routinely kill people who are
carrying
>knives, I'm sure that they would regard a paint-ball gun as a
"potentially
>deadly weapon".

Hi Walter,

Uh, the cops in DC routinely shoot people, period.  My thoughts on how to
accomplish this were several:

In static situations (i.e. you wake up and discover that the blackshirts
have surrounded you house) simply blow the powder down onto them with a
shop vacuum, from a second floor window...just have to be careful how you
approach the window, so they don't get a clear shot at you...probably nail
the vacuum hose though.  In street confrontations, if they're gonna beat
the crap out of you anyway, and you're unarmed (a la a couple of the
situations that Wiz has mentioned he experienced), what have you got to
loose by throwing a bag of powder on them?

The idea here is not that we're going to avoid getting hurt, since that
doesn't seem likely, but rather to make the blackshirts look stupid in
front of the media, AND be able to identify them later.   How many
blackshirts are going to want to walk around with their face and hair
purple for a couple of weeks? or have their picture flashed on the 6
o'clock news as 'the latest victim of the purple dye attacks'?  

Just my 2 cents worth,
Arlin 


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 20 11:22:16 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 9:48:08 GMT
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Subject: Re: plausible reasons for instituting martial law
Lines: 15


In article <835030124$26602@atype.com>, psico1@aol.com (Psi co 1) writes:

>>hey Lance!  would that make them alien illegal aliens or illegal alien
>>aliens?? :-)
>>just wonderin'
>
>   Thats a good question Arlin.
>   Would the government issue them green cards?:>)

and if they were bilingual green cards, what would the second language be?
:-)
aagh...terminal silliness attack!!

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 20 11:22:17 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 10:49:25 GMT
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Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 18


In article <835039084$27109@atype.com>, Kaa Byington
 writes:

>The reason I took my kids out of public school was that average class 
>size was 45.  Average class size in the Catholic schools was much 
>smaller--20 to 25 in the elementary schools, fewer in high school.
>The only thing the teachers had time to do in the public schools was 
>discipline--the kids had no homework, because the teachers didn't have 
>time to correct 45 papers.  I'm talking like third grade, where the big 
>problem is keeping the interest of 45 wiggling eight-year olds. Not much 
>gets learned, but they had great emphasis on who was tardy and who asked 
>to go to the bathroom too often.  "Parents night" and PTA was a joke.  

MY GOD KAA!  we actually agreed on something!!!  quick! where's my heart
medicine??! :-)

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 20 11:22:18 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 10:50:16 GMT
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Subject: Re: CNN Presents
Lines: 9


In article <835050784$27471@atype.com>, "Wayne 'Ras' Wattley"
 writes:

>Come back to reality, 

uh, Ras, sorry to disappoint you, but WE ARE REALITY.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 20 11:22:19 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 10:50:40 GMT
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Subject: Re: JJ johnson
Lines: 11


In article <835095792$29633@atype.com>, Joseph Knapp
 writes:

>Seems like he's going to the "Georgia Theater" to line up with the
>militiaboys there. And give Nancy Lord a try.

why Joe, what an excellent example your statement provides, of the statist
sexism we are so bent on destroying.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 20 11:22:19 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 11:04:02 GMT
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Subject: Re: Machine Gun Turrets on Michigan Police Cars?
Lines: 16


In article <835069694$28427@atype.com>, feustel@netcom.com (David Feustel)
writes:

>Can any Michigan residents confirm or refute a rumor that new
>Michigan police cars have machine gun turrets?

uh, David, I believe that the MSP have some riot control type armored
vehicles.  I guess they're afraid rambunctious deer hunters might get out
of hand, or something...anyway it would be danged near impossible to put
any kind of a turret on a commercially produced police cruiser, because
the structural integrity just wouldn't bee there...if they had anything
bigger than a .223 in it, one good burst would tear it loose from the
roof...cheap American construction...you know the story....

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 11:18:12 GMT
Message-ID: <835183092$4286@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The One And Only Original Bill of Rights
Lines: 51


Oh boy, where to start with this one, hmm,

In article <835123694$1643@atype.com>, videopaul@aol.com (VideoPaul)
writes:
>Also, Everything you said about GOLD (workable, fairly rare, can make
>things of it...) can apply to almost ANY netal!  WHy are we not on the
>ALUMINUM standard?  Or the PLATIMUN standard?  Rarer, costs over twice
>what gold does...)

Okay, first off, a little metalurgical history: 1. up until the
development of reliable electronic smelting processes, aluminum was
*rarer* than gold by several orders of magnitude.  In fact if you check
your history, one of the propaganda items that the Allies used to
demonstrate that Napoleon was an extravigant waistral was the fact that
his Guards Regiments' standards were topped with aluminum eagles - making
them worth many times more than their VOLUME in gold.  In other words, an
aluminum standard never developed because it went from being ultra-scarce
to being ultra-common.

2.  A platinum standard never developed because there was never enough of
it to bring into circulation, it was difficult to work, and there just
wasn't that much call for something that was (historically) worth 5 times
it's weight in gold.  In other words gold was sufficiently rare enough to
be valuable, sufficiently available enought to be useful in commerce, and
sufficiently easy enough to work so that it could be pressed into ingots,
coins, or what have you.

>gold is an arbitrary token, a representation of worth that we agree on. 
>The only difference between gold and paper currency is that gold is
>finite, but more of it is mined every day.  In other words, there's only
>so much, but we still don;t know HOW much.  How can you claim as a
>monetary standard something that is pulled out of the ground by common
>laborers even as we speak?

Gold's value is arbitrary only in the same manner that any other limited
resource's value is arbitrary - diamonds, saphires, and rubies being more
examples of the same.  The point in basing hard currency on a limited
resource is that it severely constrains currency inflation.  If, for
example, every dollar printed was required to be backed by an ounce of
silver, then once the silver reserve had been accounted for, no more
dollars could be printed until more silver had been mined.  Beyond that,
the *new* dollars, based on recently mined silver, would still have the
same full value as the *old* dollars based on previously owned silver. 
Current monetary policy, on the other hand, insures that dollars are
backed by nothing other than government hot air, thus every new dollar
printed degrades in value, not only itself, but all previously printed
dollars.  Simple enough, really.

Arlin H. Adams



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 2:48:35 GMT
Message-ID: <835238915$7405@atype.com>
Subject: Re: yahoos in the woods
Lines: 24


In article <835186713$4621@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Sounds like a typical conflict when two libertarians with divergent
>desires meet, no? So who's rights should prevail? Based on what standard?
>The hiker? or the Paintballers? Both have some reasonable expectation of
>being able to use a public resource. If nothing else, this debate shows
>that the "your rights end where mine begin" argument may not be so
>effective in practice.

Hi Wiz,

uh, one major error in your logic here.  This isn't a libertarian
environment.  If it were, there would be no 'public' resources. 
Individuals or communities of individual would own resources, and have
final say as to their allocation.  In other words, were this a true
libertarian environment, the incident would not have occurred, or had it,
one of the parties would have either been trespassing or in breach of
contract, or both.  [either of those offenses is extremely serious from a
libertarian perspective, BTW].

Sorry, no score!
Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 4:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <835245185$7733@atype.com>
Subject: Re: An 'at will' termination compels me...
Lines: 14


In article <835237995$7299@atype.com>, metaylor29@aol.com (METaylor29)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, how did this come about?  Was it your own
stupidity
>that landed you in jail or was it part of some government conspiracy
>directed against you?

Mike, it just might behoove you to read a little further before posting
this sort of thing in the future...you discredit only yourself in this
manner.

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 96 8:03:39 GMT
Message-ID: <835257819$8266@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia counter-terrorism
Lines: 17


In article <835216416$6429@atype.com>, joe@junior.wariat.org (Joseph T.
Adams) writes:

>I don't believe he represents anyone within the Constitutional
>Militias.  I do acknowledge, however, that there are significant
>numbers of people who are significantly more radical and less
>reasonable than we are, and John appears to be among their number.

Hi Joe,

I agree, and I should have specified that in my original post.  What I was
trying to get at, though, was how little Mark knows about the people he
claims to understand...

Best
Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 5:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835333384$12459@atype.com>
Subject: Re: yahoos in the woods
Lines: 26


In article <835264099$8862@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>> In other words, were this a true
>>libertarian environment, the incident would not have occurred, or had
it,
>>one of the parties would have either been trespassing or in breach of
>>contract, or both.  [either of those offenses is extremely serious from
a
>>libertarian perspective, BTW].
>
>So real bullets would have been used? How charming! Come on, even the
>libertarians I fight with are more likely to still use paintballs ...

and indeed they might well have been using paintballs in a true
libertarian environment as well.  You simply assumed the only recourse
would be to firearms.  While this is not the case, I think one would
certainly consider ALL of one's options before trespassing, I also didn't
specify as to whether it was the hiker or the paintball players who might
have been trespassing - your assumption again, had it been the hiker's
property and were she severely outnumbered / outclassed by the
paintballers, I'm certain, had she been libertarian, she would have
considered at least the threat of lethal force as an option to get them to
leave or pay rent :-)



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 14:03:31 GMT
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In article <835154283$3023@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>I suspect we'd (the LET's) get our tails kicked, but it might be
>fun. But who brings the beer?

Loser buys. :-)


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 9:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <835436901$15969@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 287


Hi again Wiz,

In article <835264123$8910@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:
>In article <835193056$5097@atype.com>, ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ) writes:
>
>> As far as violence goes - what percentage of the total Baptist 
>>and/or AOG population might actually be involved in such violence?  
>
>Enough to kill far more than the militias and bomb/burn far more places!
>Think about it. 

uh, since we haven't bombed anything, or burned anything, or killed
anybody so far, that isn't saying much...the point here is that if you are
talking less than 1 or 2 percent of their respective groups, then they are
either at or below the national average for the number of wackos in any
group of people.  

>>These are large denominations...how do the percentages of 
>>violent activity by members of these denominations stack up 
>>against percentages of violent crime committed by members 
>>of the general public?
>
>Well, :-) far more than most Lutherans or Catholics? Murder rates do go
up
>exponentially in the fundy controlled areas.

hmm, I think you're conflicting two different criteria here.  First off, I
don't know of any studies or reports which characterize criminals by their
religious background - in fact I shudder to think of the hew and cry which
would be raised if any such study were even attempted.  Thus, even if an
area might have a significant population of Christian Literalists living
in it, you cannot say that *they* are or are not committing the crimes in
that area.  An equally valid premise would be that in high risk areas,
people seek to establish stronger rules for acceptable behavior, thus
making Conservative Christian denominations more attractive.


>>well, I can't speak for Florida, but up here in Virginia, ALL 
>>private schools are going rapidly.
>
>down here they use Norman architecture and gun-ports instead of windows.

Okay, Wiz, HOW MANY out of the total number of private schools in your
area have such construction?  So what percentage of the total number of
private schools does that come out to be?


>>hmm, number of instances?  
>
>One would be too many, thank you. Especially when supported in an
>auxiliary form through the murder of 5 people by the baby-peddler forces.

uh, Wiz, you need to explain this...remember I no speekee liberal - I
don't know your jargon, okay?

>>I do agree that competition is always good! 
>
>So what the heck are we arguing about? If it weren't for the private
>schools, who would the public schools compete with? (don't you hate it
>when I do this kind of stuff  :-)   )

not really, although I must say I'm not accustomed to concessions...


>>DC is actually quite similar to portions of NYC, inner city Boston,
>>Baltimore, portions of LA, and so on -
>
>And you think these are geograhically and demographically tyical of the
>nation at large?

:-) well congress certainly thinks so! :-)
More seriously though, there are no typical demographics, which is why
attempting to set any educational policy above the level of the local
community is inevitably doomed to failure.



>Simply put ... the hardcore religionist schools are about making converts
>and obtaining their money. PERIOD! Sit through a few of the perpetual
>"tithe" sermons at the local fundy churches if in doubt.

I don't know, I've never known a church that gave 'perpetual tithe'
sermons...I thought that was just done by pseudo evangelists on
television...of course as a libertarian, I'd say that anybody who chose to
participate in such an organization was getting what they contracted
for...


>>okay now Wiz, once again, what percentage of the total 
>>population of folks who have "backgrounds in the religionist 
>>educational system" are violent?
>
>Down here? Enough to give me and a number of others "due and reasonable
>fear" for our lives and to kill 3 people (2 incidents) at one site alone
>in just over a year

Okay, now, the next question is: how many with such backgrounds *didn't*
harass or kill anyone?  Go ahead, you can guess at a general
percentage....

>Ah ... so you disagree with Pitcavage .. I clearly am a liberal and not a
>libertarian? Geez, you're going to piss the pitififul doc off.  :-)

y'know, the first time markie posted that on the newsgroup I almost
drowned!  I was just taking a sip of beer when I read that remark, next
thing I knew, I'd flushed my sinuses with Miller...sorry Wiz, but a
libertarian, even one with a lower case 'l' you ain't!


>>hold on a minute Wiz, who said anything about religious schools 
>>being the *only* private school alternative? 
>
>The CC types ... how long would they suffer a Wiccan school to survice?

taken a look at some of the UU schools lately?  hmm, then again I don't
know of any in the FL area....

>> I don't understand your remark about return on investment - could 
>>you elaborate a little more please?
>
>sure ... a 10% tithe on a median wage-earner income of say, $32,000 per
>year is $3,200, This equates to about $112 -176,000 for each
indoctrinated
>wage earner (if they actually abided by the ministerial sermons after
they
>graduate from religionist school). Do the math and you will find this
more
>than balances out your cost of education and produces a nifty profit for
>the religionists. This even works against your _alleged_ cost of
education
>in DC.

Uh, Wiz, there's this thing in Christianity called The Great
Commission...you may have heard of it - it's the bit that starts with the
words "Go ye therefore into all the world...".  Christianity, by
definition, requires evangelism.  Evangelism costs bucks - even starving
preachers generally need to have something to eat and a place to sleep. 
If you want to look at your calculations as 'profit' then here's where the
'profit' gets reinvested...

>>Religious schools are inherently aligned with a particular 
>>moral or religious outlook.
>
>My point exactly ... they have an agenda  .... and it isn't fair and full
>education.

LOL!  you're kidding!  you don't actually believe public education
*doesn't* have an agenda, now do you Wiz??  Or is it that you're upset
because some parents, who disagree with that agenda have managed, in the
face of government persecution (called 'property taxes') to provide for an
alternative for their own children, in any case...
 
>>Ah, so you believe that rather than dealing with the actual causes 
>>of such things as child prostitution and forced child labor, you'd 
>>rather  pay to simply have the kids held somewhere?
>
>[smile sweetly] Many of these countries, Arlin, have a strong Catholic
>culture.

hmm, Singapore, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, India, Pakistan, oh those are
all real strong Catholic cultures, now aren't they...

>>I certainly have never seen this happen. [referring to supression of
>cultural studies]
>
>Your lack of observation, as with mine, does not negate reality.

I certainly have never seen credible documented evidence of such either.

>>And we Libertarians will continue to fight all such coercive and 
>>illegal taxation.
>
>Thank God! One of us has to! If you left it folks like me, we might have
a
>wonderful system, but we'd all be bloody broke!    :-)

no we'd be in bloody civil war - wouldn't let you get as far as breaking
us, guy.

>>*ahem* Vouchers are a LIBERTARIAN idea, which some religious 
>>groups have chosen to support as well.
>
>So are you improving the system, or are they just making money? Look up
>"Calvinism" and its modern philosophical derivatives if confused on the
>greed orientation of the CC types.

anything is an improvement over public education in most places.  The
problem is that until the tax persecutions stop it will be hard to
implement such improvements.


>
>>ah, so we're really only talking about a tiny fraction of the entire
>population.  Why then such sweeping generalizations?
>
>Because that tiny fraction is killing people, bombing clinics, burning
>crosses, censoring/destroying books, and a host of other violent acts. To
>date, they have killed more people here in Pensacola in the last few
years
>then the feds have. Based on that alone, should I not be concerned? I
have
>more basis for fear of them here, then the militias in most places do of
>the feds.

uh, I really hate to do this to you Wiz, but that is EXACTLY THE SAME
ARGUMENT THE WHITE SUPREMACISTS USE ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE!!!  exactly the
same argument man, I really think you need to reconsider your position....


>>No government controled school can be fixed. 
>
>Talk about sweeping generalizations!!!!!!!!!!

thankyou!  few things are so obvious as that they can be generalized as
easily as that :-) 

>> Bureaucracies are inherently corrupt 
>
>no argument
>
>>and as long as they are run by human beings, will never be otherwise.
>
>AI programs aren't any better ... we do what we can with the resources we
>have. Programs are best run by people, even if imperfect.

no no, Wiz, the solution is to get rid of the programs, not make excuses
for them....

>>There is also no such thing as 'the community in it's entirety'.  That 
>>is a common statist propaganda ploy used to justify coercive taxation 
>>of large groups of people who simply live in the same geographic region.

>
>
>Yep ... I learned that in my years at a fundy church ... The Catholics
are
>'evil' and not part of 'us', etc. So?

nice try, Wiz, but you know that isn't what I meant.  In point of fact
there are large groups in any area who belong to widely diverse
subcultures, with different systems of ethical values, rules, goals, and
precepts...to claim that these can somehow be melted into a 'greater
community' is overly idealistic at best, and generally leads to fascist
suppression of those elements not deemed 'politically correct'.  that's
just historical fact, Wiz...welcome to human nature...something liberals
always seem to want to ignore.

>>There is no larger community, only the many small communities and 
>>individuals who associate by conscious choice.
>
>sounds pretty Libertarian to me.... what can I say? We just have
divergent
>views of community. I can live with yours more readily than the CC's, so
I
>won't even argue the point.

funny the CC's tell us the same thing about us as compared to PC
liberalism - it's easier to live with us, than it is you guys...so the
question is: why does everybody still refuse to do it that way? *sigh* so
much for logic.


>>again, what percentage of the total religious school population does
this
>>reflect? 
>
>Enough to kill a lot of people over history. Ask the Cherokee, Navajo,
the
>Caribes, the Aztecs, the Mayans,  etc.

certainly true. [my turn to smile sweetly] and just as true of almost any
other social group - up until recently conquest was considered an
acceptable past time for nation states...at least by the conquerors...

>>now let's compare that to the portion of the general population
>>which has minimal or no capacity for independent, rational thought 
>>and operates on the old "if it ain't on the 7 o'clock news it ain't so" 
>>type of attitude
>
>oh crud. Now you want me to defend modern society? Sorry, I may be a
>liberal, I'm not a _total_ fool.

GOTCHA!  :-)

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun 22 12:54:58 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 11:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <835443186$16121@atype.com>
Subject: Re: THE PATRIOT / MILITIA FAQ (6/20/96)
Lines: 11


In article <835317185$12099@atype.com>, reply@remail.ecafe.org (ECafe
Anonymous Remailer) writes:

>Q.  What motivates the "Patriots?"

y'know it's nice to see liberals wasting their time on this stuff...it
makes me warm all over to think that we kept them from harassing someone
else.  :-)

Arlin H. Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 14:03:56 GMT
Message-ID: <835193036$5071@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What should kids know? (was: RE:50 Top Ten Demands )
Lines: 13


In article <835182189$4144@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

> could go on and on, but the facts around the world prove the religious
>extremist blarney you echo here to be flat-out wrong. 

shame on you Wiz!  as someone who works with population characteristics,
you KNOW this is a radical oversimplification.  c'mon, man, you know that
generalizations across cultures concerning multiple aspects inherent to
those different cultures are invalid.  

Arlin Adams


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Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 16:03:14 GMT
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Subject: Re: Sheeple
Lines: 17


In article <835449484$16336@atype.com>, firebird@gate.net (Awesome1)
writes:

> Actually the "hard wired" meanings that pertain to "words", identifiers
>etc. are the consequenses that flow from contact with that which is the
>object of attention.

hokay, I'll buy the fact that we do learn similar things from similar
experiences - i.e. a small child hears the parent say 'No!' and then is
restrained by the parent from doing something, eventually learning through
repetition that the word 'no' means that something is not allowed and/or
should not be done...are we on the same track here, or did I miss
something?

Best
Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 96 9:48:08 GMT
Message-ID: <835091288$29288@atype.com>
Subject: Re: JJ johnson
Lines: 11


In article <834868983$21551@atype.com>, firelt@ix.netcom.com (John
Luebbers ) writes:

>seems JJ is getting divorced after 14 years. he has left his wife with
>nothing. I wonder, Did he work? Or did he suck the Joe Adamses of the
>wortld dry?

John, do you work? or do you just hold prejudicial views toward other
races?



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Posted-Date: 22 Jun 1996 07:32:01 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 11:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <835444083$16155@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Warning: If I Die on the Jersey Front
Lines: 19


In article <835268599$9321@atype.com>, mboto@news-e2c.gnn.com writes:

>
>	I wish to warn potential readers who, like I, may have 
>heard of a book which has recently been discussed on the Internet.
>It seems to have aquired a small cult following that has been 
>promoting it in various newsgroups.
>
>	This futuristic novel, "If I Die on the Jersey Front" 

Thankyou, Yakubu, most of us were already aware this is just more nazidiot
propaganda.  Isn't it amazing that the supremacists consider stuff like
this and the turner diaries to be creative and inspirational?  I guess it
just goes to show that inbreeding really does have negative effects on
intelligence.

Best
Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun 24 10:39:55 PDT 1996
Article: 22452 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Posted-Date: 24 Jun 1996 05:46:26 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 9:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835609684$22799@atype.com>
Subject: Re: THE PATRIOT / MILITIA FAQ (6/20/96)
Lines: 8


In article <835563791$21225@atype.com>, typhanee@aol.com (Typhanee)
writes:

> I hardly think he's actually going to get any if she's as hung up on
>her ex as she appears to be.  

Oh, well, if it's just for entertainment value...:->


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun 24 10:39:56 PDT 1996
Article: 22459 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 10:03:05 GMT
Message-ID: <835610585$22825@atype.com>
Subject: Re: A MODEST PROPOSAL
Lines: 11


In article <835438686$16024@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Hey! You should be down in our "problems with the schools" threads! This
>is the kind of physics teaching style we need in our public schools.
>
>

agreed!
Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun 24 10:39:57 PDT 1996
Article: 22460 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 24 Jun 1996 05:51:41 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 96 10:03:18 GMT
Message-ID: <835610598$22841@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Warning: If I Die on the Jersey Front
Lines: 12


In article <835482825$18569@atype.com>, dcinege@superlink.net (Dave
Cinege) writes:

>Maybe you haven't been to Newark recently.....

Uh, Dave, I'm stuck in DC because of my lack of sufficient income to move
elsewhere.  If I ever do get out of here, I can assure you that the LAST
place I will go will be another major urban area - cities and I do NOT get
along well.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon Jun 24 10:39:57 PDT 1996
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Posted-Date: 22 Jun 1996 22:17:44 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 2:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835497184$19051@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Black helicopters vx radio talks shows
Lines: 10


In article <835370285$13415@atype.com>, Robert Ireland 
writes:

>I like it!!! Purple People Beaters :-) on the 6 o'clock news with more
film
>at eleven.

one hesitates to think what their congressional funding hearings might be
like, following a number of such incidents... :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed Jun 26 09:17:52 PDT 1996
Article: 22574 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Posted-Date: 22 Jun 1996 07:37:07 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 96 11:48:11 GMT
Message-ID: <835444091$16171@atype.com>
Subject: Re: fool...
Lines: 11


In article <835262336$8552@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>Which team would I be on anyway?

uh, well, Mike, we need a ref, see, and it's gotta be somebody who can
keep up with the play across the field, and well it would help if that
person were also able to function as a designated driver for the party
after the game, so guess what? :-)
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 27 11:09:05 PDT 1996
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Posted-Date: 26 Jun 1996 11:51:37 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 96 16:03:19 GMT
Message-ID: <835804999$29983@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson and Kernal Dan
Lines: 10


In article <835796025$29689@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

> I notice you've been quoting Jefferson a lot recently.  Tell
>me, what do you think of Jefferson's proposal

Isn't it interesting how, when mark finds himself unable to provide an
adiquate counter to an argument, he immediately attempts to redirect the
discussion?  


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 27 11:09:07 PDT 1996
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Posted-Date: 26 Jun 1996 21:52:47 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 2:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835840984$2735@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Who made you a Colonel
Lines: 10


In article <835796890$29729@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Of course, most of this exists in their minds, since the South Carolina
>militia is small and inconsequential.  

Prove your words mark, if you can.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 28 09:09:56 PDT 1996
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Posted-Date: 28 Jun 1996 05:15:04 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:18:42 GMT
Message-ID: <835953522$3150@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Warning: If I Die on the Jersey Front
Lines: 9


In article <835906708$1349@atype.com>, mike@paranoia.com (Mike Chapman)
writes:

>I'll tell you what Arlin, take a look down at your feet.  Stand up.
>Get moving.  The reason you are a slave to this economy is because you
>believe that you are.

No mike, it's because I honor my debts.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 28 09:10:01 PDT 1996
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Posted-Date: 28 Jun 1996 05:06:14 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835953484$3118@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Oh, "Colonel" [note quotes] Ellenburg--- Poll Results
Lines: 21


In article <835903984$1253@atype.com>, Joseph Pothier
 writes:

>"The results are based on telephone interviews with a randomly 
>selected national sample of 496 adults, 18 years and older, 
>conducted April 23-24, 1995. For results based on samples of this 
>size, one can say with 95 percent confidence that the error 
>attributable to sampling and other random effects could be plus or 
>minus 5 percentage points. In addition to sampling error, question 
>wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can 
>introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls. 

Ah Joseph now we move into different territory...if you really believe
that regression analysis on 496 people can accurately reflect the entire
population of the United States, then I guess it's not unreasonable for
you to take refuge in these sorts of pseudostatistics...however, please
don't be overly offended if the rest of us don't buy this nonsense...for
that is indeed what it is - nonsense.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 28 09:10:02 PDT 1996
Article: 22697 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 28 Jun 1996 05:40:40 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <835955284$3256@atype.com>
Subject: Re: to the remnants of those who style themselves 'phineas priests'.
Lines: 14


In article <835893186$733@atype.com>, mattn@engdns.bandley1.netmanage.com
writes:

>Hmmm.. Does a "Phineas Priest" follow the teachings of "Phineas 
>	Fingers"??

LOL! No, but that's a good guess! :-)

The 'priests of phineas' are part of the enforcement arm of the c.i.
leadership...their idea of excommunication generally involves killing
people....

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 28 09:10:03 PDT 1996
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Posted-Date: 28 Jun 1996 05:43:16 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:48:11 GMT
Message-ID: <835955291$3272@atype.com>
Subject: Re: to the remnants of those who style themselves 'phineas priests'.
Lines: 14


In article <835893194$743@atype.com>, mattn@engdns.bandley1.netmanage.com
writes:

>Being one who is always interested in the shenannagans of the maggots,
>	would anyone who knows kindly tell the story of the 'panther' and
the
>	'penguin'?? 

I'm sorry Matt, but that would require the permission of the folks
involved, which would be very difficult to obtain.  As far as news stories
go - well, you'd be amazed at what never makes it into the media....

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 28 09:10:04 PDT 1996
Article: 22700 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 28 Jun 1996 05:22:49 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <835954386$3178@atype.com>
Subject: John Doe #2 Identified Part I
Lines: 142


1 Psi Ops Co forwards for 1ACR:

JOHN DOE #2 IDENTIFIED; BUT CAN WE GET THE FBI TO ARREST HIM?
(PART ONE)
by Mike Vanderboegh, 1ACR

NOTE: 1ACR has been assisting Glenn & Kathy Wilburn with their private
investigation of the Oklahoma City bombing and the search for ALL of the
killers of their two grandchildren and 166 other Americans.  The analysis
below is my own, and it should be made clear that I do not presume to
speak
for the Wilburns.  The Wilburns are two very courageous Americans who have
suffered much in their search for the truth.  Other Oklahoma City victims
have criticized the Wilburns for seeking to get McVeigh off the hook.
Nothing could be further from the truth.  None of the information that
they
or their many volunteer helpers have discovered (of which I am but one)
exculpates Timothy McVeigh.  McVeigh was the truck driver, and a key
player
in the plot.  What
we are after is the rest of the bombers and the murdering bastards that
sent
them and sheltered them after the fact.

MEET JOHN DOE #2: MICHAEL BRESCIA

Michael Brescia (xerox of photo available upon request) is the son of Mr.
&
Mrs. William M. Brescia, 859 Manatawna Avenue, Philadelphia, PA, 19128.
Neither Mr. Brescia (a Philadelphia-area firefighter) nor his wife will
comment on their son or his movements.  A graduate of LaSalle High School
(215 233-2911), Brescia attended LaSalle University  (215 951-1000)
without
graduating, although sources say he made inquiries about attending this
fall.


While a high school student he reportedly was into survivalism, but in
time
he grew into the white supremacist movement.  Sources familiar with his
university career say he was the subject of a fraternity disciplinary
hearing
when he reportedly attempted to recruit his fellow frat brothers into a
"white supremacist cell."  Brescia left the university and Philadelphia
shortly thereafter for a stay at that most bucolic of racist antisemite
retreats: the Elohim City "Christian Identity" compound in Oklahoma. 

 (The uninitiated often struggle with the differences between the
Christian
Identity movement and the paganist neo-Nazis such as the Aryan Nations, as
they share a virulent racism and antisemitism and have been known to
cooperate on paramilitary ventures.  The principle difference between the
two
is that unlike the neo-Nazis (who worship Odin, Thor and miscellaneous
Norse
biker-gods but have no limiting illusions about morality or charity),
Christian Identity folks think racism and antisemitism is OK because God
and
Jesus told 'em so.)

WELCOME TO JOHN-DOEVILLE...

Michael Brescia was introduced to Elohim City by Mark Thomas, Aryan
Nations'
bigshot in the eastern Pennsylvania area.  Some of Mark's other buddies
included the recently captured Midwest bankrobbers who also hailed from
eastern PA (more about them in an upcoming article).

Elohim City, a 400-acre compound of about 20 buildings located 35 miles
northwest of Fort Smith, AR,(near Sallisaw, OK)  was founded in 1973 by
Robert Millar, age 70. Elohim City has about a hundred residents these
days
including all four of Millar's sons and 25 of his 34 grandchildren.

"Things are different here.  Elohim City operates on its own calendar and
clock.  Each year begins with the spring equinox and each day begins at
noon.
Millar said the concept is found in the Bible in Gemesis and Deuteronomy.
Residents adhere to a religious doctrine called Christian Identity, which
contends that white Anglo-Saxons, not Jews, are God's chosen people, and
that
America, not Israel, is the Promised Land.  According to Christian
Identity,
Jews are Satan's children, and non-whites are believed to be 'pre-Adamic,'
a
lower form of species than white people.  Those who monitor right-wing
extremist groups say Millar is probably the most influential Christian
Identity leader in the Great Plains." 
( From "We Are Not Dangerous, Leader of Separatists Says" by Judy Thomas,
The
Kansas City Star, Sunday, March 17, 1996.)


Elohim City attracts an electic bunch.  Ray Lampley, who differed with
Millar
on the finer points of theology (Lampley styled himself as "Prophet of
Yahweh") but not the racisim or antisemitism of Christian Identity---
intended to practice bomb detonation at Elohim City the day he was busted
for
(and subsequently convicted of) planning to carry out the terror bombing
of
five targets including the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, AL. 

Millar said he knew Lampley but had no knowledge of the plot.

Richard W. Snell, white supremacist and copkiller resides there, too.
Unfortunately for him he doesn't get around much anymore since he was
executed by the state of Arkansas for the 1983 murder of a pawnbroker he
mistakenly thought was Jewish.  (Hey, nobody ever said antisemites were
all
that bright.)  He was executed on April 19, 1995, the same day as the OKC
bombing with Millar in attendance as his chaplain and execution witness.
Millar brought his body back and buried it on the compound.

Former leader of the Covenant, Sword and Arm of the Lord (and federal
snitch)
James Ellison currently resides at Elohim City.  "Ellison, 55, was
convicted
on racketeering and weapons charges brought against him and other Covenant
members after a four-day standoof that began April 19, 1985, at the
group's
camp near the Missouri-Arkansas border.  His 20-year sentence was reduced
after he agreed to testify against some comrades in a trial in Fort Smith
Arkansas, in 1988.  Ellison was released in February, 1991 after nearly
six
years in prison.  He moved to Florida but was sent back to prison in 1993
for
violating parole.  He was released again in June, 1994 and returned to
Florida before moving to Elohim City, where he married the granddaughter
of
its leader, Robert Millar.  Dressed in faded jeans, a T-shirt and a
camouflage cap, Ellison talked candidly wbout his violent past.  He said
he
had no regrets.  'How can you regret something you felt like God told you
to
do?'"      ( Judy Thomas, ibid.)

Other routine "guests" at Elohim City were Andreas Carl Strassmeir (aka
"Andy
the German, aka John Doe #3) and Dennis Mahon, Aryan Nations organizer.
(More about these two later in Part Two.)


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri Jun 28 09:10:07 PDT 1996
Article: 22701 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 28 Jun 1996 05:27:09 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:33:18 GMT
Message-ID: <835954398$3194@atype.com>
Subject: John Doe #2 Identified (Part II)
Lines: 262


1 Psi Ops Co forwards for 1ACR

JD2 IDENTIFIED, BUT CAN WE GET FBI TO BUST HIM?
(PART TWO)

WELCOME TO JOHN-DOEVILLE (CONTINUED)

Two of Elohim City's more interesting citizens are/were Andreas Carl
Strassmeir (aka "Andy the German", aka Andy Strassdmeir, aka Andy
Stassmeir, aka Andy Stassdmeir, aka John Doe #3) and Dennis Mahon,
longtime KuKluxKlan, skinhead and Aryan Nations organizer.

"Dennis Mahon, a former Northmoor resident and imperial dragon of the Ku
Klux Klan, also has ties to Elohim City.  Mahon moved to Tulsa in 1990 and
now is a Midwest consultant for the White Aryan Resistance.  Mahon said he
and Andreas Strassmeir were close.  Strassmeir spent several weekends with
him in Tulsa, he said, and from 1992 to 1995, Mahon visited Elohim City
every month or two 'to visit and fellowship and do some target shooting
and military maneuvers.'  Mahon said he saw McVeigh at the same 1993 Tulsa
gun show that Strassmeir attended but that he never talked to McVeigh. 
Mahon, 45, said he last visited Elohim City about four months ago."  Judy
Thomas, Kansas City Star, Sunday, March 17, 1996.

Kirk Lyons, Andreas Strassmeir's lawyer, pal, mentor and cash conduit, had
this to say about Mahon in an interview with VOLKSTREUE, a German neo-nazi
magazine:

"I have great respect for the Klan historically but sadly, the Klan today
is ineffective and sometimes even destructive.  There are many spies in it
and most of its best leaders have left the Klan to do more effective work
within the movement.  It would be good if the Klan followed the advice of
former Klansman Robert Miles: "Become invisible.  Hang the robes and hoods
in the cupboard and become an underground organisation."  This would make
the Klan stronger than ever before.  Because of the reasons I mentioned
before, I think that the Klan would be just as useless in Germany.  THE
MAN WHO IS MAINLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SUCCESS OF THE KLAN IN GERMANY--
DENNIS MAHON-- HAS LEFT THE KLAN. (Emphasis supplied.) .....Your movement
should rely on German traditions, culture and Volkstum for its
inspiration.  I would encourage you to work together with
nationalist-thinking organisations in other countries, but I see no need
to import a backward and failed experiment into Germany."

(A future discussion topic: Was Kirk Lyons an accessory to the OKC
conspiracy before, or after, the fact?)

MEET JOHN DOE #3: ANDREAS CARL STRASSMEIR.

Andreas Strassmeir, son of "the architect of German reunification" and
Helmut Kohl's "right hand man/minister without portfolio", was a long-time
resident and chief of security at Elohim City  (although he made many
interesting trips while based at Elohim City for his twin mentors Vincent
Petruskie and Kirk Lyons, the "Odd Couple" sponsors of mass murder). 

Michael Brescia was a roommate of Andreas' at Elohim City, as was (we have
seen) Dennis Mahon.  Ambrose Evans-Prichard of the London Sunday Telegraph
has done a remarkable series of stories about "Andy the German."  Part Two
of "John Doe 2 Identified" concludes with an attached story by AEP
containing some startling revelations.

Coming Up:   Part Three of "John Doe 2 Identified"  -- "So how did a
pretty girl like you end up in a place like this?"


Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 01:23:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Free Speech 
Subject: [FreeSpeech-NewsWire] Did agents bungle US terror bomb?

  Did agents bungle US terror bomb?

By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard in Junction City, Kansas and Andrew Gimson in
Berlin

ANDREAS Strassmeir lives quietly with his parents in a well-to-do area of
West Berlin. His father was once a top aide to German Chancellor Helmut
Kohl. His brother is a city councillor. For seven years he served in the
German army, at one point doing a tour of duty as a liaison officer with
the
Welsh Guards.

It is hard to imagine a more unlikely figure to surface in the drama of
the
1995 Oklahoma City bombing, the worst act of terrorism ever committed on
US
soil. But last week an Oklahoma couple, Glenn and Kathy Wilburn, announced
that they were going to name Strassmeir, 36, in a lawsuit as a "US federal
informant with material knowledge of the bombing". They say that
Strassmeir
became involved with the far-Right underworld when he lived with the
Elohim
City "Christian Identity" sect on the Arkansas-Oklahoma border from 1991
to
1995.

The Wilburns lost two grandchildren in the attack on the Alfred Murrah
federal building, which killed 168 people including 19 children. After
taping more than 300 hours of testimony in their own investigation, they
have concluded that the government had prior knowledge of the blast.

They say that the FBI has refused to pursue and arrest a number of
suspects
seen near the crime scene with Timothy McVeigh, who is said to have been
in
contact with paramilitary groups in the area and has been charged with the
bombing. The Wilburns say the refusal is presumably because the FBI is
afraid of exposing the government's negligence. "This was a sting
operation
that went berserk," said Glenn Wilburn.

The family has accumulated evidence which they claim indicates Strassmeir
was an undercover US agent who, while based at Elohim City, penetrated the
white separatist movement and alerted the authorities about the impending
attack. "Andy did his best, he tried to stop this thing, we're not blaming
him for what happened," said Wilburn. "But we're going to sue the US
government to break this wide open."

The Wilburns now believe that they have evidence from witnesses that five
to
seven men were involved in the bombing, and indications that several of
these had connections with Elohim City. So far only two people have been
charged: McVeigh and Terry Nichols. The FBI now says that nobody else was
involved. Strassmeir denies that he was an informant. "I've never worked
for
any US government agency, and I've not been involved in any intelligence
operation since my discharge from the German army in 1988," he said. "This
family [the Wilburns] is on a fishing expedition."

"The FBI asked where I was on the day of the bombing"

The decision to name him in the lawsuit comes after witnesses allegedly
identified him at the end of April as one of a number of men seen in
Junction City, Kansas, when McVeigh was also there during the days leading
up to the bombing. One of the witnesses said she contacted the FBI as soon
as she was shown a photograph of Strassmeir by a US news organisation
investigating the Oklahoma affair.

Within days, a US Justice Department team questioned Strassmeir, calling
him
in Berlin on April 30 and again on May 1 to ask about his alleged ties to
McVeigh. "The FBI asked where I was on the day of the bombing," he said.
"They wanted to help debunk the rumours spread about me." Strassmeir said
he
was at work near Elohim City at the time of the blast.

In a series of five interviews with The Telegraph he said that he first
lived in the US in 1989 because he was planning to work on a special
assignment for the US Justice Department. "I discussed the job when I was
in
Washington. I was hoping to work for the operations section of the DEA
[Drug
Enforcement Agency]," he explained. "It never worked out."

Vincent Petruskie, a retired US Air Force colonel, said that he helped
Strassmeir try to get a job in the DEA and the US Treasury. "We took him
under our wing when he first came to the United States, and to be quite
honest he's a little immature," he said. "I mean he's a good kid, but he
fantasises." In the end, Strassmeir says that he went to Texas and started
working as a salesman for a computer company. From there he seemingly
drifted into the sub-culture of the Ku Klux Klan, the Aryan Nations, and
the
extreme fringes of the Christian Right. In 1991 he went to live in Elohim
City, a primitive community of huts, guns and impenetrable theology. He
established himself as chief of security and weapons training, he said.

"I met the guy once at a gun show. We spoke for five minutes, that's all"

On April 5 1995 McVeigh - or somebody using his telephone billing card -
telephoned Elohim City. It was minutes after McVeigh had reserved the
Ryder
rental van that was allegedly used to blow up the Oklahoma City building.
According to Joan Millar, who answered the telephone, the caller asked to
speak to "Andy".

"I don't know why McVeigh was trying to contact me," said Strassmeir. "I
met
the guy once at a gun show. We spoke for five minutes, that's all. I sold
him a US Navy combat knife."

Without identifying himself, McVeigh also called the offices of
Strassmeir's
American lawyer, Kirk Lyons, for 15 minutes on April 18, 1995, the day
before the bombing. He apparently talked about the controversial raid by
federal agents on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas, which
resulted in more than 80 deaths, and the need to "send a message to the
government".

Strassmeir says that McVeigh never visited Elohim City. But McVeigh was
stopped for speeding on October 12 1993, 10 miles from Elohim City, on the
road to the compound. Strassmeir says that his four years at Elohim were
among the happiest of his life. But it was a curious existence for a man
who
had once been a lieutenant in the Panzer Grenadiers. He told The Sunday
Telegraph that he had received military intelligence training. Part of his
work was to detect infiltration by Warsaw Pact agents, he explained, and
then feed them disinformation. 

He is scathing in his criticism of the ATF - the US Treasury's Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms - saying that it did not have the
anthropological skills to infiltrate the Christian militias. "The
Right-wing
in the US is incredibly easy to penetrate if you know how to talk to
them,"
he said. "Of course it's easier for a foreigner with an accent; nobody
would
ever suspect a German of working for the federal government."

" He was just a weird cookie"

In February 1992 Strassmeir's maroon station wagon was impounded by the
Oklahoma highway patrol for a traffic violation. The police found in his
briefcase a collection of documents, some of them in German. According to
the tow-truck driver, Kenny Pence, Strassmeir soon brought heavy pressure
to
bear. "Boy, we caught hell over that one," he said. "The phone calls came
in
>from  the State Department, the Governor's office, and someone called and
said he had diplomatic immunity. He was just a weird cookie."

Strassmeir said the man must have been confused about some of the details.
"Some calls did come in to rattle their cage," he said. "Something may
have
been said about my father's position."

In hours of conversations with The Sunday Telegraph, over several days,
Strassmeir remained adamant that he had met McVeigh only once. He also
claimed that he had copper-bottomed information about the bombing, but
seemed torn over how much he felt able to impart.

"The ATF had an informant inside this operation. They had advance warning
and they bungled it," he said. "What they should have done is make an
arrest
while the bomb was still being made instead of waiting till the last
moment
for a publicity stunt."

Asked if he thought the alleged informant would ever speak out, he replied
with passion: "How can he? What happens if it was a sting operation from
the
very beginning? What happens if it comes out that the plant was a
provocateur? What then? The relatives of the victims are going to go
crazy,
and he's going to be held responsible for the murder of 168 people? Of
course the informant can't come forward. He's scared stiff right now."
Before and after this outburst he kept repeating that he was not making
veiled references to himself.

Lyons, Strassmeir's lawyer, says that his client has been dragged into the
Oklahoma bombing story by McVeigh's defence team. He says the defence
tactic
is to muddy the waters by sketching a vast conspiracy involving neo-Nazis
in
Europe and even Middle Eastern terrorists. "I call it the Space Alien
Elvis
Presley theory, and it's been fuelled by nutcases and conspiracy
theorists,"
he said.

"Andy has been damaged. Anybody who puts out the lie that he was linked to
the Oklahoma bombing in any way is going to pay for it."





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Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:18:27 GMT
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Subject: Re: Polls and Polecats
Lines: 10


In article <835904885$1294@atype.com>, whit@cs.utexas.edu (John W. Engel)
writes:

>Those "experts" use pre-grad students here at UT to conduct their
>"scientific" surveys...when they're not delivering pizzas.

y'know, it's amazing what college students can talk their significant
others into doing for them..."here honey, would you mind filling a bunch
of these out"...oh yeah...


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Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:03:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Who made you a Colonel
Lines: 10


In article <835881521$4638@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>So how many men would a blabbermouth brevet colonel from Alabama command,
>then?

couldn't say mark, but I'd bet good money that the number would be
significantly larger than those who would follow the leadership of a
lonely academic in ohio...


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Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 9:03:12 GMT
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Subject: Re: Thomas Jefferson and Kernal Dan
Lines: 7


In article <835882383$4667@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>His rank is the same as mine:  zip, zero, nada, none.

as is your level of courtesy, or so it would appear


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat Jun 29 13:14:46 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 27 Jun 96 4:18:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: 50 Top Ten Demands
Lines: 249


Hi again Wiz,

In article <835465686$17505@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:
>In article <835436901$15969@atype.com>, ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ) writes:

>Murder rates increase exponentially in states (1990 data) as
>fundamentalist religionism increases, and murder decreases as atheism
>increases .... 

if that were true, New York and California would have lower murder rates
than Montana or Utah...sorry Wiz, but I think there's something amiss in
your statistics.

>that hardly indicates that murder associated with hardcore
>fundamentalists is "at or below the national average," it tends to show a
>tendency to be well ABOVE the national average ... it also does not
>indicate that the religionists are DOING the murders, but it indicates
>that they are less than adept and dealing with the situation.

hmm, if by 'less adept' you mean not as good at covering it up in the
media, then I'd have to agree with that.  I still question your
statistical methods here, however.

> And then they want to control the schools? No way!

I don't recall arguing that they should control public schools, my
argument was that public schools were a waste, and should be
abolished...big difference, guy.

>Gunn, Hill, Salvi ..... Plus hundreds of others around here that stalked
>the victims and put out "wanted" posters ultimately leading to the
>murders. I think we can pretty accurately say that at least _some_ of the
>religionists are definitely killing people or are accessories to the
fact.

hmm, in the same manner we can say that the minority of radical
environmentalists who publicly state on the internet that certain
politicians would be better dead, who booby trap logging equipment, and
who spike trees are guilty of maiming and murder, or are at least
accessories after the fact.  Now, do THEY represent the environmental
movement as a whole?


>> An equally valid premise would be that in high risk areas,
>>people seek to establish stronger rules for acceptable behavior,
>>thus making Conservative Christian denominations more attractive.
>
>You mean like the stronger rules for behavior the gov't is trying to put
>in place?

Nice try, but no, that's not what I meant at all.  Let me try again:  In
areas where there is a general breakdown of social mores, the tendency for
some people who realize that their society is to seek another community in
which stronger rules apply - thus the increase in Conservative Christian
denominations in such areas.  You need to watch that, Wiz, only liberals
associate the government with society - most of the rest of us see it as
antithetical to a healthy society.

>>HOW MANY out of the total number of private schools in your
>>area have such construction?  
>
>Come down and take a look ... There are two MAJOR facilities that show
>fortress like construction, and a host of smaller places with greater or
>lesser levels of protectionistic control. One certainly gets the
>impression from the styles that these religionists are very fearful.

Okay, let's see that's two out of ?how many? total private schools in your
area??  (you're not gonna get off *that* easy...)


>>uh, Wiz, you need to explain this [baby-peddler]...remember I no 
>>speekee liberal - I don't know your jargon, okay?
>
>sure, the religionists will sell you part or all of a baby ... in fact,
>baby peddling is one of their major industries.

please explain the 'part' of a baby statement...I seriously doubt that
Solomon is running any of  the religious oriented adoption agencies, even
in your state...


> From various "children's funds" to $20,000 adoptions, they are heavily
involved.

Ah and for those of us who refuse to support the UN's push for OWG, you
would just prefer we didn't get involved in caring for orphans and the
poor?  is that it?  UNICEF or nothing?

> One almost wonders
>if their main opposition to abortion is simply that it interferes with
>their supply of "product" to sell.

Why how capitalist of you, Wiz!  Of course moral issues don't count?

> For that matter, ask yourself why when
>someone calls for their adoption records in Maryland, the phone is
>answered by the "One Church, One Child" group. What ever happened to the
>separation of church and state?

That I cannot answer.  Certainly this seems a breech of the seperation
clause, but I don't have any data on this...sorry.

>>More seriously though, there are no typical demographics, which 
>>is why attempting to set any educational policy above the level of
>>the local community is inevitably doomed to failure.
>
>Yep. One of the key problems with large "countries."

Ah!  Precisely!  We'll make a libertarian out of you yet! just wait and
see! :-)


>>I've never known a church that gave 'perpetual tithe'
>>sermons...I thought that was just done by pseudo evangelists 
>>on television
>
>They didn't invent the sermons, they just televised them.

Uh, Wiz, having grown up as a preacher's kid, I think I can say with some
degree of certainty that I have *never* met an ordained clergy member of
any denomination who felt anything other than dred at having to give the
once - a - year tithing sermon...yeah, that's right, Wiz, once per *year*.
 And I'll also state that as a p.k. I've probably interacted with more
clergy than any non-clergy / non-p.k. participant in this newsgroup.


>>Okay, now, the next question is: how many with such [hardcore 
>>religionist] backgrounds *didn't* harass or kill anyone?  Go ahead, 
>>you can guess at a general percentage....
>
>My "guess at a general percentage" from dealing with this culture and
>observing stalking, assaults, violence, wanted posters, hideous
>billboards, hate-filled editorials, bigotry, rights-infringements,
>takings, etc, etc, etc?  Oh, about 0% percent have not either killed or
>harassed anyone.

well, let's see - so every single member of the denominations you don't
like have either killed or harassed someone??  hmm.  as in 'they're all
out to get you'?  hmm...........

>well, if there were any around here, I probably would consider them. I'll
>check the next time I go to the fellowship.

hey!  you're a liberal!  they'll love you...*sigh*...never try to be a
libertarian in a UU/C congregation...trust me, it can be a lonely
existance....

>Let's see if I understand your statement, you're saying they need to get
>more money so they can get more people to get more money from? Hmmm,
>sounds like profit motive on the AmWay style to me!

you know who you're supporting with this argument, don't you Wiz?  Every
tin horn third world dictator who wants to keep his people ignorant, and
*hates* those teaching missionaries who set up elementary schools in the
middle of nowhere, so that people can learn to read and write in their
native language...every asian warlord who wants to keep his people totally
dependent on him, and *hates* those medical missionaries who provide free
treatment, thus undercutting the government owned medical scams; oh yes,
and let's not forget the People's Security Bureau (secret police) of the
Peoples Republic of China, who despite a continuous policy of persecution,
imprisonment, torture, and execution have yet to stamp out the largest
Underground Church in the history of the world...yep, they'd all agree
with you that all that money those folks put in the collection plates
shouldn't be allowed to go to religious uses....

>>LOL!  you're kidding!  you don't actually believe public education
>>*doesn't* have an agenda, now do you Wiz?? 
>
>Sure it does ... no system exists without some agenda. So?

Okay, then should parents be allowed to choose the agenda to which their
children are exposed, or not?

> does not, however, justify their efforts to destroy the public
educational
>system that we all, including them, benefit from.

I have seen *no* proven benefits from the current system which could not
be improved on radically by privatizing it.

>
>>hmm, Singapore, Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, India, Pakistan, 
>>oh those are all real strong Catholic cultures, now aren't they...
>
>Actually my statement was "many" of the referenced countries with the
>problem were Catholic ...

okay, so we're even on the cheap shots :-)

>>uh, I really hate to do this to you Wiz, but that is EXACTLY 
>>THE SAME ARGUMENT THE WHITE SUPREMACISTS USE 
>>ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE!!!  exactly the same argument man, I 
>>really think you need to reconsider your position....
>
>Nope, it is not. I stated concern, not a desire to either persecute or
>destroy.

Yo! go haul louie beam out from under his rock and ask him about white
supremacy - he'll say exactly the same thing.


>>no no, Wiz, the solution is to get rid of the programs, not make 
>>excuses for them....
>
>Well, you said above religionism has a "great commission"

No I said Christianity has a Great Commission.

> ... now that
>means that religionist schools are part of a "program" too

No I advocate eliminating the *publicly funded* school system...not
private schools funded by the families which they support.


>>welcome to human nature...something liberals always seem to 
>>want to ignore.
>
>.... and which the religionists want to legislate into their type of
>"control." You really don't think the CC/CI folks are just working to
>ensure their own rights, do you? 

every individual is responsible for insuring their own rights.  no
exceptions.

>Think about it, they have the right not
>to have an abortion, but they want to take everyone else's right to
choose
>away. Look at the "blue laws" as further examples.

ah, so such laws would not be valid even if they adiquately reflected the
belief system of the community in which they were made?  Now who is
dictating whose rights?

> These and many other
>issues are clear indications of the religionist contempt and hatred for
>liberty. In fact, all religionist controlled or indoctrinated societies
>have fairly low levels of freedom. So I guess it comes down to which is
>valued more, low taxes (which leaves more money for tithing, so what's
the
>difference anyway?) or freedom. Yeh, I know. The other alternative is
that
>one could become a Libertarian and argue for both :-)  

See, I told you we're going to turn you into a libertarian yet! :-)

Arlin Adams


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Date: Sun, 23 Jun 96 20:18:13 GMT
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Subject: Re: THE PATRIOT / MILITIA FAQ (6/20/96)
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In article <835389217$14046@atype.com>, typhanee@aol.com (Typhanee)
writes:

>Anon -
>   If you're a guy . . . have we got a date for you!!  You and Mary Ann
>(if that IS an accurate gender indicator) could share ignorant opinions,
>intensify each other's symptoms of paranoia and create histrionic
>memorandums together. 

uh, uhm, uh, Typhanee...uh, did you ever stop to think that they might,
uhm, reproduce???  I'm not sure *I* would want to be responsible for that
now, would you? :-)

Arlin


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In article <835461239$17096@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>You didn't pay attention to my post.  I didn't say "No, I have not."  I
said,
>
>"Neither have I."  You were the other person included in the "neither."

mark you've simply got to stop assuming that everyone in the universe
operates at your level of cowardice...it's distorting your perceptions.


From ahabiz@aol.com Sun Jun 30 14:44:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 96 14:03:39 GMT
Message-ID: <836057019$3644@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Oh, "Colonel" [note quotes] Ellenburg--- Poll Results
Lines: 53


In article <835977120$547@atype.com>, Joseph Pothier
 writes:

>I do not concur. In polling what is more important than the number 
>of respondents is the chi square analysis and the gamma findings 
>from which the margin of error is determined. The margin of error 
>here +/- 5%, which for polling results is rather high. Major 
>corporations make marketing decisions based on a similar number of 
>respondents. 

Oh dear, here we go putting the rest of the newsgroup to sleep again
(*sigh*).  Ah well, Consider this Joseph:  Chi Square is by definition a
nonparametric test.  Nonparametric statistical analysis is used when the
person performing the analysis *admits* that that they don't have any real
ideas of the parameters of the target population.  Yet, in point of fact,
if the target population is the population of the United States, we have a
fairly reasonable set of parameters established in the census data.  Using
this data we can reasonably define such parameters as gender, race, income
levels, education levels, residential settings (i.e. urban, suburban,
rural) and so forth.  Thus a study utilizing parametric statistical
methods is possible.  Since a parametric analysis is inherently more
accurate than a nonparametric analysis, the question becomes 'why are they
using nonparametric techniques?'.  The answer, of course, is cost.  A
statisticly significant random sample of the U.S. population, intended to
include all meaningful parameters (gender/gender orientation, income
level, race/ethnicity, educational level, residential setting, and so
forth) would require thousands of subjects.  This would be expensive. 
Thus, instead, the various groups conducting polls settle for a
nonparametric analysis based on a random sample of an overgeneralized (and
largely undefined) subset of the population and *pretend* it's the entire
population.

>You can consider this nonsense if you want to, Arlin, but the 
>simple fact of the matter is that hundereds of major corporations, 
>a great many institutions, and a lot of politicians make decisions 
>based on polling results such as these. Why? Because they provide 
>accurate information on the direction of public taste and public 
>thinking. 

I think I'd have to debate that point as well.  Certainly, were a
corporation  to gain accurate information on the needs and desires of the
entire population, one would expect them to produce an overwhelmingly
effective, tailored campaign which would wipe their competition out of the
marketplace.  Yet this almost never occurs.  Why?  Because they base their
plans on nonparametric analysis, thus failing to account for major
segments of their target audience, and thus never accurately tailoring
their campaigns.  In other words the failures of such marketing techniques
simply point out the limited reliability of nonparametric measures. 
Corporate planners understand this at least on an intuitive level which is
why so much advertising, rather than attempting to appeal to the known
desires of their target audiences, attempts to seduce the audience into
accepting the advertised product as desirable.


From ahabiz@aol.com Sun Jun 30 14:44:28 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 96 2:18:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Oh, "Colonel" [note quotes] Ellenburg--- Poll Results
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In article <836075890$4465@atype.com>, Kaa Byington
 writes:

>Oh, shut up, Arlin.  You are making a fool of yourself again.  
>Nonparametric statistical tests are used when the DATA is, basically, 
>non-numerical, when individual answers do not fall along a bell curve.  
>Data like yes-no, color preference, gender, voting preference, toothpaste

>brand loyalty.  

Nice try kaa, and I realize that in the undergraduate course you probably
took, that's what they told you, but the reality is as I stated it: The
only legitimate uses of nonparametric methods are in those instances where
the parameters of the subject population are unknown.  I remember your
confusion on this point, the last time this topic arose.  Since you
obviously haven't read the experimental design book I recommended at that
time, and also, since you live in a major urban area, with a number of
universities, how about this:  Why don't you find a statistician with a
Ph.D. from a *real* university (not one of those 'alternate' places) and
ask *her* to explain the difference between parametric and nonparametric
statistics...it would save us all a lot of bandwidth.  Also, as I said at
the end of our last discussion, I will not debate this topic with you
until you have a coherent grasp of the fundamentals.  You may rant as long
as you wish, but please do *not* expect me to respond.  Oh, and for the
record, since I'm taking a year off from grad school, I *am* one of the
corporate planners for a small startup company.  What was it you say you
do, again?

Arlin H. Adams 




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In article <836120005$6383@atype.com>, mike@paranoia.com (Mike Chapman)
writes:

>In article <836023712$2199@atype.com>, PGISSource 
wrote:
>>
>>In article <835977066$505@atype.com>, ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ) writes:
>>
>>>Cats are one of the few truly libertarian animals in nature :-)
>>
>>hmmmmm, I guess I do tolerate _some_ resident libertarians in the house.
>>Oh, well, who can argue with a cat?
>
>Cats of course WILL attack other cats unprovoked, precluding
>living and letting live.

I've seen cats 'play attack' other cats, but I've never seen one attack
another unprovoked..

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