The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From wdstarr@crl.com Mon Jan  1 13:31:16 PST 1996
Article: 18368 of alt.revisionism
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From: wdstarr@crl.com (William December Starr)
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Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: 31 Dec 1995 23:25:10 -0800
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In article <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il>, 
kevin_e@netvision.net.il said:

>>> Homofascists dominated the Nazi Party.  Can you prove they
>>> didn't?
>>
>> Don't need to.  The sexual orientation of one group of thugs isn't
>> relevant to the question of the morality of liberty, equality and
>> justice (to name three things to which you seem to be opposed).
>> [wdstarr]
>
> This is where you're wrong. I'm all for the liberation of man from
> emotional and spiritual bondage. I also believe in the principle of
> equal justice for all. (equality and justice are one not two)

That's nice.  I don;'t believe it, based on your track record here,
but it's nice.  Now, how about addressing the question of why anyone
sould accept you apparent assertion that the sexual orientation of one
group of thugs is relevant to the question of the morality of liberty,
equality and justice?

>>> Can you prove that homosexuality is `innate'?
>> 
>> Don't need to.  The "innateness," or lack thereof, of a particular
>> sexual orientation isn't relevant to the question either.

> Gay activists would not agree with you. They believe if
> homosexuality is presented to the public as being `innate,' this
> excuses them from personal responsibility for the consequences of
> their conduct.

Why is it that I have trouble accepting your words as accurate
expressions of the positions and beliefs of any gay activists?

>>> Can you prove that homosexuality is a benefit to either the
>>> individual or society?
>>
>> Don't need to.  No sexual orientation, nor any person who holds
>> such orientation, is under any obligation whatsoever to be "a
>> benefit" to anyone or anything.
>
> This pretty well describes the `gay' mind-set. "Don't need to" give
> a damn about anyone but themselves.

This is the statement: "No sexual orientation, nor any person who
holds such orientation, is under any obligation whatsoever to be "a
benefit" to anyone or anything."  If you disagree with it, please
explain what the obligation is and where it comes from.

>>> Can you prove that homosexualism is not predatory?
>>
>> Don't need to.  The statement "homosexualism is predatory" is
>> semantically meaningless.
>
> "Don't need to, don't want to" do anything, right William?

Don't need to try to make sense out of someone else's (i.e., yours)
nonsense.
 
>>> Can you explain how homosexualism is equal to heterosexism?
>>
>> Don't need to.  The statement "homosexualism is equal to
>> heterosexism" is semantically meaningless.
>
> No semanitics here. How is homosexuality the same as
> heterosexuality?

That isn't what you asked.  You said "equal to," not "the same as,"
and those two relational expressions are not equivalent in meaning.
Please make up your mind as to what questions you're asking.

>>> Can you tell us, on what basis did the APA remove homosexuality from
>>> its Diognostics and Statistics manual?
>>
>> Do't need to.  The institutional opinions of the American
>> Psychiatric Association, or the personal opinions of any of its
>> members, are no more relevant to the questions of "homosexualism"
>> than are your own.
>
> This is not true. Homosexualists used the 1973 APA descision to
> remove homosexuality from its DSM as a political weapon to declare
> anyone who disagreed with them pathological or homophobic. The
> descision was made on the basis of a vote by a minority of the APA's
> voting membership. The principle being that science is NOT
> democratic but evidential.
 
And what has this to do with my statement that "The institutional
opinions of the American Psychiatric Association, or the personal
opinions of any of its members, are no more relevant to the questions
of "homosexualism" than are your own?"


[ *snip* ]

> On the basis of evidence I could easily change my mind. Thus far,
> all we've seen from the `gay' camp is distortion, extortion and
> fraud. Gays are afraid of an open and fair debate of the issue with
> their opponents.  The foundations of their claim are made of clay.
 
You ask questions which are meaningless or which contain within them a
set of unsupported presumptions, and then you demand that others play
your game by your rules (with you acting as "impartial" referee), and
you have the temerity to claim that you desire "an open and fair
debate of the issue."  Talk about chutzpa on the hoof...  Have you
ever thought about playing fair for once, just to see what it's like?

-- William December Starr 



From eeaaee@mixcom.com Mon Jan  1 13:33:44 PST 1996
Article: 18371 of alt.revisionism
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From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Eine Juedische Verderber
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 15:12:06 GMT
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Eine Juedische Verderber

In German, eine Deutsch Verderber, is  a traitor who disparages and
drags down his own (German in this case) people.

Kevin Abrams has written in his "book" The Pink Swastika, that the
1938 German "Kristallnacht" pogrom against the Jews began after a
German working in the Paris Embassy, Ernst vom Rath, was shot by "a
seventeen-year-old male prostitute by the name of Herschel Grynszpan,
a Polish Jew."

Now we know from Kevin's rabid, homophobic posts here that he
considers homosexuality the worst thing in the world.

The problem Kevin has is that his hatred of gays blinds him. His
so-called "book" relies on distorted fictional accounts of events
written by equally rabid authors in the past. Their goal was more
often than not to tar the Nazis with the worst possible demonic image
they could construct, such as being homosexuals, just as Kevin seeks
to demonize gays with the worst image, such as being Nazis.

Kevin's complete lack of scholarly skills and his lazy failure to do
adequate research failed to inform him of the fact that in 1938
Herschel Grynszpan was considered a hero of the Jewish People for
standing up to the Nazis.

In his blind rage to smear gays with yet another false and dirty deed,
Kevin calls a hero of the Jewish People, Herschel Grynszpan, a
homosexual prostitute, and we know from Kevin's posts that he
considers that to be the lowest of the low.

Not only does Kevin desecrate the memory and reputation of a Jewish
hero, but he has absolutely no basis for doing so. As I've shown from
the works of William Shirer and other reliable authors in another
post, there's absolutely nothing to connect Grynszpan or vom Rath with
homosexual activity, and, in addition, all indications are that the
two never knew each other or even saw each other before the day whan
Grynszpan shot vom Rath. Indeed, they never even saw each other then,
for vom Rath was shot in the back.

What kind of person is this Abrams, to be living in Jerusalem, and to
smear a hero of the Jewish People like Hershel Grynszpan with false
charges of being a homosexual prostitute? Perhaps someone should bring
his actions to the attention of Kach and Kahane Chai.
 
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Romans referred to Jesus using "ECCE HOMO", not "ECCE HETERO"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



From ganymede@newpop.sccsi.com Mon Jan  1 17:10:59 PST 1996
Article: 18380 of alt.revisionism
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From: ganymede@newpop.sccsi.com (Greg R. Broderick)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 96 16:00:26 GMT
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In article <4c73lk$3hg@news.netvision.net.il>, kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

>For the moment you assume a falsehood. There is no hard evidence to
>prove that homosexuality is innate and far more evidence to prove that
>it is sociological and environmental in origin. The question is, if 
>there is no solid evidence to establish the innateness of homosexuality 
>then why are we teaching that it's not a choice? The burden of proof 
>rests upon those who want us to believe that homosexuality is innate. 
>This proof they have failed to provide. In Israel I interviewed the person 
>responsible for the nations sex education curriculum. She candidly told 
>me, we really don't know what causes homosexuality, but in the same breath 
>she stated, it's not a choice. From my perspective this seems a little 
>reckless, seeing as how sexual experimentation can and does lead to 
>established behaviors. 

There is no hard evidence to prove that Judaism is innate and far more 
evidence to prove that it is sociological and environmental in origin. The 
question is, if there is no solid evidence to establish the innateness of 
Judaism then why are we teaching that it's not a choice?  Why is Judaism 
protected by Constitutional rights, when homosexuality is not ?

..

In Israel I interviewed the person responsible for the nations religious 
education curriculum. He candidly told me, we really don't know what causes 
Judaism, but in the same breath she stated, it's not a choice.  From my 
perspective this seems a little reckless, seeing as how religious 
experimentation can and does lead to established behaviors. 


>Gay advocates have no proof to substantiate their claims for the 
>normalization and acceptance of homosexuality. 

This statement does not follow from your prior argument, it is a non sequitur, 
and therefore stands or falls, as well as all argument derived from this 
statement as an unsupported assertion.

Moreover, this statement flies in the face of history -- considering the 
number of known homosexuals throughout the ages, it is plausibly true 
statement that homosexuality has been a part of human sexual behaviour 
throughout recorded history.  This statement also flies in the face of 
psychological research (c.f. Dr. Evelyn Hooker) which has shown no 
identifiable behavioural or psychological dysfunction to be inextricably 
linked to homosexual orientation or behaviour.

>It therefore follows, that if homosexuality is not innate, but at some point, 
>a chosen behavior, what are we doing designating them minorirty status? 

It therefore follows, that if Judasim is not innate, but at some point, a 
chosen behavior, what are we doing designating them "minorirty" status?

>What are we doing allowing sexual conduct to be used as a basis from which to 
>accord minority status? 

What are we doing allowing religious conduct to be used as a basis from which 
to accord minority status? 

>No Neal, the burden of proof lays far more with homosexualists and those who 
>have worked to sell the gay cause. So far, they haven't even entered into 
>open debate on the issue. Maybe it's time. This could be a tremendous 
>learning experience for the whole nation. Maybe even a new lease on life!


>> You need to take a few courses in critical thinking, specializing in 
>> burden of proof.
>
>I think before you make statements such as this, which could prove to
>be embarrassing to yourself, you should research the subject a little 
>more. As you must appreciate, you do not have a monopoly on `critical
>thinking.' 
> 
>> > I am saying, and will continue to say, that in all areas, whether
>> > historical, religious or scientific you have no legitimate basis 
>> > upon which to substantiate your claims for acceptance other, than it 
>> > being a personal `preference' or `orientation.'
> 
>> Oh?  You mean.. um.. like... uh... RELIGION?  Is there a Jew gene?  
>> How about an Episcopalian gene?  If you claim there is NO LEGITIMATE 
>> BASIS for any rights based on 'choice' then you give up any rights 
>> based on religion because any such are, by your own definition, 
>> INVALID.  I do not hold that homosexuality is a choice any more than 
>> heterosexuality is a choice.  I, being heterosexual, never had ANY 
>> time in my life where I was equally attracted to either sex and just 
>> one day made the decision to be heterosexual and that I could just 
>> change that choice on a whim as you seem to be claiming of homosexual 
>> orientation.  It is, to me, similar to right handed or left 
>> handedness.  SURE... you could with great effort force someone who is 
>> left handed to act right handed, but it will REMAIN unnatural for them 
>> to do so.
>
>The Jewish people have established cultural, ethnic, linguistic, religious 
>and a literary tradition which goes back thousands of years. How can you 
>possibly compare everything it means to be Jewish to a sexual disfunction?

And homosexuality, if we are to believe your interpretation of Genesis 18, and 
ignore Ezekiel's interpretation of Genesis 18 (c.f. Ezekiel 16:49 - 50), has 
existed longer than has Judaism, seeing as Judaism (the Abrahamic covenant) 
was not instituted until well after Lot was extracted from Sodom before its 
destruction.

>> However if you wish to just consider it a choice and claim that no 
>> rights accrue just from choice... I suggest you are extremely ill 
>> informed.
>
>You have already said this. I would respond, it is YOU who appears to be
>"ill-informed" and casting aspersions. If a man "chooses" to enter into a 
>loving and mutually consentual sexual relationship with a prepubertal boy, 
>what would be your response? Would you say that the man made an acceptable 
>`choice?' In your opinion, is the boy old enough to consent? I'm sure 
>you're familiar with NAMBLA?

If a man "chooses" to attempt to convert a prepubertal boy to Judaism, what 
would be your response?

Aside from the above, pederasty bears no more relation to homosexuality than 
rape bears to heterosexuality.  Should we condemn a mutually loving, adult, 
consentual heterosexual relationship because some heterosexual men rape women 
?  If not, then why should we condemn a mutually loving, adult, homosexual 
relationship because some men molest little boys (and girls) ?  

>> > What I am also saying is that homosexuals have a responsiblity to 
>> >the rest of the community which they don't seem to care about, 
>> >regardless of the harm they are causing. 
> 
>> What harm is this, and why should they care about you when you have 
>> nothing but hateful and venomous intolerant bigotry against them?  You 
>> are asking the jews to love their nazi persecuters as they shove them 
>> into the camp ovens!
>
>I do not hate "them," nor do I know who "them" are. However, I condemn 
>homosexuality as a destructive and debilitating behavior, a behavior 
>which we should do everything in our power to repress and avoid. A person 
>can't have it both ways, to be known as a `homosexual' and as a dignified 
>human being at the same moment. Labels play a large role in this game. 

You have yet to provide incontrovertible support for your unbutressed 
assertion that homosexuality is a "destructive and debilitating behavior", 
Kevin.  Until you do so, your argument is worthless.

>> > Can you prove to us that homosexuality is not
>> > harmful, to both the individual and society? 
> 
>> You are the one who has to prove that it IS.
>
>No, it is you Neal, who must prove that it isn't! 

He who asserts bears the burden of proof, Kevin.  You have made unsupported 
assertions.  You hhave failed to provide proper support for these assertions 
when challenged, therefore these assertions are worthless.


>Shalom,
>
>Kevin E. Abrams
>
>> Neal Feldman    "Fight Fascism!"
>> Salem, Oregon                   "Defeat the Religious Reich!"
>> thanatos@cyberhighway.net

--
============================================================================
Greg R. Broderick        And it came to pass that in the hands of the
                         ignorant, the words of the Bible were used to beat
                         plowshares into swords.
greg@qrd.org                                                  -- Alan Watts
ganymede@sccsi.com
70142.620@compuserve.com
============================================================================


From ganymede@newpop.sccsi.com Mon Jan  1 17:11:00 PST 1996
Article: 18381 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!news.uh.edu!lurch.sccsi.com!news.sccsi.com!ganymede
From: ganymede@newpop.sccsi.com (Greg R. Broderick)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 96 18:26:21 GMT
Organization: The Usenet global cabal
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In article <4c73lk$3hg@news.netvision.net.il>, kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

>For the moment you assume a falsehood. There is no hard evidence to
>prove that homosexuality is innate and far more evidence to prove that
>it is sociological and environmental in origin. The question is, if 
>there is no solid evidence to establish the innateness of homosexuality 
>then why are we teaching that it's not a choice? The burden of proof 
>rests upon those who want us to believe that homosexuality is innate. 
>This proof they have failed to provide. In Israel I interviewed the person 
>responsible for the nations sex education curriculum. She candidly told 
>me, we really don't know what causes homosexuality, but in the same breath 
>she stated, it's not a choice. From my perspective this seems a little 
>reckless, seeing as how sexual experimentation can and does lead to 
>established behaviors. 

There is no hard evidence to prove that Judaism is innate and far more 
evidence to prove that it is sociological and environmental in origin. The 
question is, if there is no solid evidence to establish the innateness of 
Judaism then why are we teaching that it's not a choice?  Why is Judaism 
protected by Constitutional rights, when homosexuality is not ?

..

In Israel I interviewed the person responsible for the nations religious 
education curriculum. He candidly told me, we really don't know what causes 
Judaism, but in the same breath she stated, it's not a choice.  From my 
perspective this seems a little reckless, seeing as how religious 
experimentation can and does lead to established behaviors. 


>Gay advocates have no proof to substantiate their claims for the 
>normalization and acceptance of homosexuality. 

This statement does not follow from your prior argument, it is a non sequitur, 
and therefore stands or falls, as well as all argument derived from this 
statement as an unsupported assertion.

Moreover, this statement flies in the face of history -- considering the 
number of known homosexuals throughout the ages, it is plausibly true 
statement that homosexuality has been a part of human sexual behaviour 
throughout recorded history.  This statement also flies in the face of 
psychological research (c.f. Dr. Evelyn Hooker) which has shown no 
identifiable behavioural or psychological dysfunction to be inextricably 
linked to homosexual orientation or behaviour.

>It therefore follows, that if homosexuality is not innate, but at some point, 
>a chosen behavior, what are we doing designating them minorirty status? 

It therefore follows, that if Judasim is not innate, but at some point, a 
chosen behavior, what are we doing designating them "minorirty" status?

>What are we doing allowing sexual conduct to be used as a basis from which to 
>accord minority status? 

What are we doing allowing religious conduct to be used as a basis from which 
to accord minority status? 

>No Neal, the burden of proof lays far more with homosexualists and those who 
>have worked to sell the gay cause. So far, they haven't even entered into 
>open debate on the issue. Maybe it's time. This could be a tremendous 
>learning experience for the whole nation. Maybe even a new lease on life!


>> You need to take a few courses in critical thinking, specializing in 
>> burden of proof.
>
>I think before you make statements such as this, which could prove to
>be embarrassing to yourself, you should research the subject a little 
>more. As you must appreciate, you do not have a monopoly on `critical
>thinking.' 
> 
>> > I am saying, and will continue to say, that in all areas, whether
>> > historical, religious or scientific you have no legitimate basis 
>> > upon which to substantiate your claims for acceptance other, than it 
>> > being a personal `preference' or `orientation.'
> 
>> Oh?  You mean.. um.. like... uh... RELIGION?  Is there a Jew gene?  
>> How about an Episcopalian gene?  If you claim there is NO LEGITIMATE 
>> BASIS for any rights based on 'choice' then you give up any rights 
>> based on religion because any such are, by your own definition, 
>> INVALID.  I do not hold that homosexuality is a choice any more than 
>> heterosexuality is a choice.  I, being heterosexual, never had ANY 
>> time in my life where I was equally attracted to either sex and just 
>> one day made the decision to be heterosexual and that I could just 
>> change that choice on a whim as you seem to be claiming of homosexual 
>> orientation.  It is, to me, similar to right handed or left 
>> handedness.  SURE... you could with great effort force someone who is 
>> left handed to act right handed, but it will REMAIN unnatural for them 
>> to do so.
>
>The Jewish people have established cultural, ethnic, linguistic, religious 
>and a literary tradition which goes back thousands of years. How can you 
>possibly compare everything it means to be Jewish to a sexual disfunction?

And homosexuality, if we are to believe your interpretation of Genesis 18, and 
ignore Ezekiel's interpretation of Genesis 18 (c.f. Ezekiel 16:49 - 50), has 
existed longer than has Judaism, seeing as Judaism (the Abrahamic covenant) 
was not instituted until well after Lot was extracted from Sodom before its 
destruction.

>> However if you wish to just consider it a choice and claim that no 
>> rights accrue just from choice... I suggest you are extremely ill 
>> informed.
>
>You have already said this. I would respond, it is YOU who appears to be
>"ill-informed" and casting aspersions. If a man "chooses" to enter into a 
>loving and mutually consentual sexual relationship with a prepubertal boy, 
>what would be your response? Would you say that the man made an acceptable 
>`choice?' In your opinion, is the boy old enough to consent? I'm sure 
>you're familiar with NAMBLA?

If a man "chooses" to attempt to convert a prepubertal boy to Judaism, what 
would be your response?

Aside from the above, pederasty bears no more relation to homosexuality than 
rape bears to heterosexuality.  Should we condemn a mutually loving, adult, 
consentual heterosexual relationship because some heterosexual men rape women 
?  If not, then why should we condemn a mutually loving, adult, homosexual 
relationship because some men molest little boys (and girls) ?  

>> > What I am also saying is that homosexuals have a responsiblity to 
>> >the rest of the community which they don't seem to care about, 
>> >regardless of the harm they are causing. 
> 
>> What harm is this, and why should they care about you when you have 
>> nothing but hateful and venomous intolerant bigotry against them?  You 
>> are asking the jews to love their nazi persecuters as they shove them 
>> into the camp ovens!
>
>I do not hate "them," nor do I know who "them" are. However, I condemn 
>homosexuality as a destructive and debilitating behavior, a behavior 
>which we should do everything in our power to repress and avoid. A person 
>can't have it both ways, to be known as a `homosexual' and as a dignified 
>human being at the same moment. Labels play a large role in this game. 

You have yet to provide incontrovertible support for your unbutressed 
assertion that homosexuality is a "destructive and debilitating behavior", 
Kevin.  Until you do so, your argument is worthless.

>> > Can you prove to us that homosexuality is not
>> > harmful, to both the individual and society? 
> 
>> You are the one who has to prove that it IS.
>
>No, it is you Neal, who must prove that it isn't! 

He who asserts bears the burden of proof, Kevin.  You have made unsupported 
assertions.  You hhave failed to provide proper support for these assertions 
when challenged, therefore these assertions are worthless.


>Shalom,
>
>Kevin E. Abrams
>
>> Neal Feldman    "Fight Fascism!"
>> Salem, Oregon                   "Defeat the Religious Reich!"
>> thanatos@cyberhighway.net

--
============================================================================
Greg R. Broderick        And it came to pass that in the hands of the
                         ignorant, the words of the Bible were used to beat
                         plowshares into swords.
greg@qrd.org                                                  -- Alan Watts
ganymede@sccsi.com
70142.620@compuserve.com
============================================================================


From eeaaee@mixcom.com Mon Jan  1 17:11:01 PST 1996
Article: 18383 of alt.revisionism
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From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Kevin the propagandist. This is what all those rabbis taught him ?????? I doubt it.
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 19:20:12 GMT
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote to  and alt.politics.homosexuality:


»»The Nazis took power with approximately 35% of the popular vote.

You know damned well that most of your recent Israeli governments have
been formed by minority parties. Are you putting the Government of
Israel in a class with the Nazis?

»»The Nazi Party was made up of considerably fewer people. Most of the
»»core members were homosexual pederasts. The family, no matter how 

Absolutely not true. You lied about the Jewish hero, Hershel
Grynszpan, charging him with being a homosexual prostitute, even
though there is absolutely no credible evidence of that and even
though the unanimous weight of historians (as opposed to
propagandists) is against that idea. And you lie here. Every one of
the few things I've had time to investigate in your book has been
obviously false. You relied on other "authors" like yourself, who were
not journalists but propagandists. Your references are from
propaganda, not from historians.

Where you use someone reasonably correct, like William Shirer, you
ignore him when it suirs you. You write what a wonderful and respected
authority he is, yet in the case of Hershel Grynszpan you ignore what
Shirer has written and flatly contradict him. I think what appeals to
you in Shirer is that, like you, he is a homophobe who mentions gays
only in disparaging ways. For Shirer being gay is a way to tar his
enemies with filth. But there is a major difference between Shirer and
you. Shirer had the integrity not to make things up, nor to copy from
other people who made things up.

»»imperfect in may be, is in principle the foundation of a civilized and
»»free society. Undermine the family, and you undermine your own freedom.
»»Promote homosexuality as `normal' and acceptable and you destroy the
»»only thing which holds a civilized society together.

»»> Kevin, your oppions are that of a weak man that does not wish to take
»»> responsibility for his own life.  Stop blaiming the world and grow up.
»» 
»»Reviews & comments,

»»                               "The Pink Swastika"

»»        "A landmark book for those who have trouble understanding 
»»Hitler, the Holocaust, etc. Previous books and movies, however high 
»»their quality, have left me mystified as to how the Nazi leaders could 
»»have done the things they did. This short book gets closer to that 
»»puzzle than anything I know of. The key participants begin to emerge 
»»as real people, whatever you may think of them. There is even a 
»»glimmering of light on Hitler himself."

»»  [John Hully, Former senior economist at World Bank headquarters in
»»      Washington D.C & Fellow of the British Interplanertary Society]

»»        "As a Jewish scholar who lost hundreds of her family in the 
»»holocaust, I welcome, The Pink Swastika: Homosexuality In The Nazi 
»»Party as courageous and timely . . .Lively and Abrams reveal the reigning
»» "gay history" as revisionist and expose supermale German homosexuals 
»»for what they were - Nazi brutes, NOT Nazi victims."

»»  [Dr. Judith Reisman, Institute for Media Education and Co-author of, 
»»        "Kinsey Sex and Fraud, The Indoctrination Of A People."]

»»        "Without going into the gory details, a simple but clear generality
»»can and must be stated. Overt deviant sexual behavior is the most blatant
»»and powerful method to demonstrate contempt for G-d. The Nazi quest for
»»world domination immediately recognized Biblical morality as its enemy. 
»»As such it flaunted and exalted the most abominable hedonist behavior
»»possible which eventually led to the attempted annihilation of the people 
»»of G-d........The Pink Swastika, by Kevin Abrams and Scott Lively, is a 
»»timely historical text which points out frightening similarities between 
»»the moral climate leading up to the Third Reich in Germany, and that of 
»»our own time. It has an urgent warning to all mankind not to make the 
»»mistake of permitting a false morality, based upon a democracy which is 
»»shaped by manipulators of evil, to usurp the eternal morality of G-d."

»»        [Excepted from, "A Voice From Hevron, Democracy verses Judaism," 
»»               by: Gary M. Cooperberg, Quiryat Arba, Israel]

»»        "I am impressed with the comprehensiveness of the book. In 200 pages
»»you have managed to expose myths concerning homosexuality in the German
»»Nazi Party -- and in doing so have exposed the revisionist history now being
»»created around that appalling period. In addition you have `brought the 
»»subject up to date' and shown the power of the supposed `gay rights 
»»movement', their link with neo-fascism, and the dangerous trend we now see
»»throughout the western world. And, this `politically correct movement', being
»»a main force in the destruction of the moral judeo-christian base of western
»»society."

»»                             [Gemma Blech, Retired Social Worker]
»»                                `Gay Liberation = Sad Bondage'


»»THE PINK SWASTIKA:
»»Homosexuality In The Nazi Party
»»By Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams
»»Founders Publishing, Keizer, Oregon
»»205 pages; softcover; 9.95 US.

»»The gay-rights movement has lately stepped up its "pink triangle
»»campaign," which aims to establish that treatment of homosexuals
»»in Hitler's Germany was virtually equivalent to the Jewish Holocaust.
»»This is a gross distortion of history, say the authors of "The Pink
»»Swastika;" in fact, "there was far more brutality, rape, torture and
»»murder committed against innocent people `by' Nazi deviants and 
»»homosexuals than there ever was `against' homosexuals." The authors
»»maintain that the Nazi Party was so intimately connected with the
»»German homosexual movement that the history of one cannot be 
»»understood without the other.

»»Co-author Kevin E. Abrams is a practicing member of the Jewish faith, a
»»longtime researcher into the historic consequences of homosexuality, and
»»an associate of the national Association for the Research and Therapy of
»»Homosexuality. Scott Lively, a conservative Christian, was for five years
»»communications director for the pro-family Oregon Citizens Alliance. When
»»the OCA tried to block legislation granting "minority status" to 
»»homosexuality, the "gay" opposition loudly accused OCA members of 
»»"Naziism" and threw swastika-marked bricks through the windows of 
»»supporting businessmen. Since some of Hitler's chief henchmen were 
»»known to be homosexual, this emphasis intrigued Mr. Lively.

»»He and Mr. Abrams therefore worked together to trace the fortunes of
»»homosexuality in Germany from the 1860s through the 1940s. They site the 
»»work of scores of historians--- "straight" scholars, homosexual ones and
»»"homosexualists" (meaning anyone, straight or gay, who promotes
»»homosexuality as morally and socially equivalent to heterosexuality).

»»They describe the peculiar welter of homosexual and occult groups that
»»by 1900 developed into two opposing types. One, which had scientific
»»pretensions, was represented in the Sex Research Institute of Berlin,
»»founded in 1919 by Magnus Hirschfeld, a Jewish doctor and influential
»»homosexual. Anyone convicted of homosexuality under paragraph 175 of the 
»»German Penal code had to go there for "treatment," while Hirschfeld 
»»strove unsuccessfully to have paragraph 175 repealed. This type 
»»emphasized the feminine, condemned pederasty and sadomasochism, and 
»»wanted consenting homosexual intercourse legitimized.

»»The other type, ultra-masculine, militaristic and pederastic, was based
»»on a Hellenic pagan revival. They scorned femininity, especially the
»»Hirschfeld brand. They considered sodomy aesthetically superior to
»»heterosexuality, which was useful only for breeding, and envisioned a
»»nation of supermen built upon strong male bonding. Their main 
»»association, The Community of the Special (renamed the Society for Human
»»Rights in 1920), supplied the National Socialists with ideas, members
»»and leaders.

»»Prominent among these was Ernst Roehm, the Nazi co-founder who developed
»»the Freikorps, Germany's postwar volunteer reserve units, into the 
»»brownshirted SA, the Nazis crucial strongarm force. Roehm was killed in
»»the 1934 purge of the SA, but most historians agree this was because he
»»had become too powerful, not because of his strident homosexuality.
»»Almost all the many other nazi homosexuals handily survived. Well 
»»ensconced in Hitler's inner circle were Hermann Goering, Rudolf Hess, and 
»»the vicious Julius Streicher and Hans Frank, all commonly thought to be
»»homosexual or bisexual. Working his way up the Nazi ladder was the equally 
»»vicious Reinhard "Hangman" Heydrich, who may have learned his 
»»homosexuality at 14 in the old Freikorps.

»»Most German homosexuals, the authors suggest, probably fell somewhere
»»between the two extremes, which were linked solely by "a common sexual
»»disfunction." Whatever their official line, however, the Nazis approved
»»of masculine, Butch-type homosexuality and despised the effeminate femme
»»variety. This would explain why they destroyed Hirschfeld's institute in
»»May 1933 and burned its files, which may have held damaging revelations
»»about important officials. It could also explain why less than 2% of 
»»Third Reich homosexuals, estimated to number 1.2 to two million, were
»»vitimized.

»»Some 10,000 men were convicted of homosexuality under paragraph 175,
»»including many non-homosexuals (priests and other opponents of the regime)
»»who were condemned on trumpted-up evidence. Six thousand of them probably
»»perished, mostly in the work camps, and there is considerable evidence 
»»that they often died at the hands of the homosexual trusties and guards of 
»»the SS.

»»Although this book sometimes conveys a sense of overkill, and not every
»»reader will go the whole way with the author's conclusions, it is both
»»fascinating in its detail and largely convincing. Nor is it of merely 
»»academic interest, authors Lively and Abrams believe. The German 
»»homosexualist movement spawned not only the Nazi party, but also the 
»»now-global gay-rights movement. It thrives in North America today, in a
»»notably confused moral climate which, like that of pre-Nazi Germany, is
»»seriously debilitated and very vulnerable.

»»Mrs. Virginia Byfield
»»The British Columbia & Alberta Report Magazines.
»»September 4 1995. 

»»        For my Jewish brethern searching for a Biblical basis for the 
»»legitimization of homosexuality, I refer to the words of Rabbis Marc Angel, 
»»Hillel Goldberg and Pinchas Stopler and their joint article in the winter, 
»»1992-93 edition of Jewish Action Magazine, an OU (Jewish Orthodox Union) 
»»publication; 
»»                        
»»        "There is not a single source in all the disciplines of Jewish 
»»sacred literature -- halachah, aggadah, philosophy, muscar, mysticism -- 
»»that tolerates homosexual acts or a homosexual `orientation.' Jews who 
»»sanction homosexuality must do so wholly without reference to Jewish 
»»sacred literature, in which case their justification has no Jewish 
»»standing; or without reference to Jewish sources, in which case they act 
»»with ignorance or intellectual dishonesty. The idea, set forth by some of 
»»the non-Orthodox leadership, that the Torah prohibited only coercive and 
»»non-loving same-sex relationships, thus allowing for a contemporary, 
»»voluntary and loving same-sex relationship, is wholly without basis in a 
»»single piece of Jewish sacred literature written in the last 3000 years."

»»We have received many reviews, from both Jews and non-Jews, religious 
»»and non-religious, which provide an affirmative view of THE PINK SWASTIKA. 
»»These shall suffice for the moment.


 
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Romans referred to Jesus using "ECCE HOMO", not "ECCE HETERO"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:36 PST 1996
Article: 18421 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 02:21:30 PDT
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Apuleius wrote,

> Much of the responsibility for the Holocaust must rest on corrupt,
> amoral people like you.
 
Apuleius,

"Amoral" means morally neutral. How could you say such a thing about
 me? Does being an ethical monotheist to you mean that I'm morally 
 neutral?

"Amoral" Def: `being neither immoral or moral.'

Regards,

Kevin E. Abrams


From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:37 PST 1996
Article: 18422 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: The Homophobe with the Pink Face
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 01:53:29 PDT
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Apuleius writes,

> For those who can read German (my ability is poor) I can recomment
> Helmut Heiber's "Der Fall Gruenspan" in Vierteljahrs hefte fure
> Zeitgeschichte, April 1957, pp 134-172. 

Thanks for the info, my co-author's wife Ann Lively reads German
Perfectly. I'll have her look it up.

Regards,

Kevin Abrams,




From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:38 PST 1996
Article: 18423 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Puritans had no place for Jews, Kevin
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 01:46:04 PDT
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> >The Calvinist Puritan ethic had absolutely no place for Jews. For you
> >to try to weasel in on it is the equivalent of placing the abomination
> >of abominations in the temple of Jerusalem.

You're thinking of Luther maybe? 



From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:39 PST 1996
Article: 18424 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Innocent until proved guilty: an American principle of justice.
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 02:30:23 PDT
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Apulieus writes,

? I don't care what your Israeli system says about the matter. In
? western, Anglo-Saxon America, the burden of proof is not on gays to
? show that their condition is "innate," but rather the burden of proof
? is on YOU to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that they have made a
? "choice."
 
? I'm sorry if your culture and education makes that a difficult concept
? for you to grasp. We Americans find it easier to understand.

Apulieus,

Over the years, I have worked and lived in both Canada and the United 
States. I am also quite familiar with US history and their system of 
government. I also attended school in America as a youth.

What you are referring to, is that everyone is innocent until proven
guilty in a court of law. This does not however apply to moral principles.
A transgression of the sexual moral code is always wrong. By making it a
`scientific or psychiatric question,' `gay' activists were able to get
around the moral code. They did so on the basis of fraud. To clear this
issue up, there needs to be an open and fair national debate and an
investigation into the `evidence' put forth by homosexualists to justify
their claims. To change the sexual dispensation of an entire society to
accommodate the militant demands of a sexually corrupt minority is simply
foolish, irresponsible and cruel to the healthy development of our youth.  

Apuleius, You are irresponsible and what I would call a social crimminal,
for attempting to promote a viscious and debilitating sexual disfunction.
You continue to do so, in spite of enormous evidence that should convince
you to pause and reassess your position. I have a great affection for a 
great many Americans and the founding principles of American culture. It
makes me extremely sad, to see people like you doing everything you can, to 
destroy her, and bring misery to her people. Think about it. Your so-called
`gay' agenda is a total fraud.

Regards,

Kevin E. Abrams



From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:39 PST 1996
Article: 18425 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 02:26:06 PDT
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Apulieus wrote,
 
> The comparison is not sexual 'behavior' but sexual orientation. Didn't
> your big list of rabbi teachers include any science in your education?

You know Apuleius, the only thing I can think of, is that your own
life is so miserable, you have to run everyone else down. Pity.

Regards,

kevin E. Abrams 



From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:40 PST 1996
Article: 18426 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Hoist with his own petard again.
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 02:02:16 PDT
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> kevin_e@netvision.net.il (Kevin Abrams) wrote, 
 
> »»The Nazis did not persecute homosexuals. This is `gay' propaganda.
> »»The historical record reveals an entirely different picture than the
> »»one you have become accustomed to. 

Apuleius

> Let me quote you something:

O.K.
 
> "In February of 1933, Hitler banned pornography, homosexual bars and
> bath-houses, and groups which promoted 'gay-rights.'"

   The Bund fur Menschensrecht (Society for Human Rights) which became
   the largest homosexual rights movement in Germany, and was founded
   "by" the Nazis, had fulfilled its purpose. Remember, the Nazis came 
   to power on January 30, 1933? Roehm's `gay' street thugs were no 
   longer required. Besides they were an open embarrassment, and most of 
   the German public was sick of them and their `gay' orgies at the Brown 
   House in Berlin. 
 
> Do you think that is persecution to ban groups working for the
> political rights of their members?

   Sure, the foolish effeminate Jewish homosexual Magnus, Hirschfeld did
   much to help Nazi homofascism come out of the closet. It backfired and
   he had to flee for his life to France.

   In all, it was a political descision to calm the German public and
   to put an end to "revolutionary" activities.
 
> Do you recognize what I have quoted?

   Yes. So what's your point? The suspense is driving us crazy.....

> Do you know where I got that quote?

   I'm still waiting.
 
> Here's the source:

   At last.....
 
> The Pink Swastika, by Kevin Abrams & Scott Lively, page 95.

   Phew! Thanks Apuleius.


From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:41 PST 1996
Article: 18427 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Apuleius Foams at The Mouth.......
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 01:57:53 PDT
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Apuleius,

You're one angry person and filled with HATE.

Maybe you should seek help? It's never to late.
Unless you've got AIDS that is. And even then you
might beable to do techuva.

Regards,

Kevin E. Abrams


From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:42 PST 1996
Article: 18428 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Doomsday weapon.
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 01:49:29 PDT
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Apuleius wrote,

? You and your kind of fanatic extremists are a great danger to the
? world, as great as the Islamic fundamentalists on the other side.
 
? We worry about atomic weapons getting into their hands.
 
? We should also worry about the far greater possibility that existing
? Israeli atomic weapons might get into your hands.
 
? I believe you're quite capable of destroying mankind by blanketing the
? world with deadly radiation if the world doesn't give you your way.
 
? This is the meaning of the Battle of Armageddon in Revelation. The
? enemy from the north is from the Canadian north.
  
 
? The Romans referred to Jesus using "ECCE HOMO", not "ECCE HETERO"

Apuleius,

Are you sure you're not the "doomsday weapon?"

Regards,

Kevin E. Abrams 



From wdstarr@crl.com Mon Jan  1 23:32:43 PST 1996
Article: 18437 of alt.revisionism
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From: wdstarr@crl.com (William December Starr)
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Subject: Re: Apuleius Foams at The Mouth.......
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[Note the deletion of various newsgroups from this thread.]

In article <4c9sul$c3q@news.netvision.net.il>, 
kevin_e@netvision.net.il said:

> Apuleius,
>
> You're one angry person and filled with HATE.

If this is true, then it's hate-mongers like you who can take most
of the credit for it, Kevin.

-- William December Starr 



From fj@spdcc.com Mon Jan  1 23:32:45 PST 1996
Article: 18410 of alt.revisionism
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From: fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!)
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Message-ID: 
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
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In article <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il>,
  wrote:
>Gay activists would not agree with you. They believe if homosexuality
>is presented to the public as being `innate,' this excuses them from 
>personal responsibility for the consequences of their conduct. The problem


Which shows exactly just how incredibly out of touch you are with the
current struggle for civil rights. The "innateness" is something that
is mostly used and talked about by people who have just come out or are
still in the first throws of it. There are many same-sex activists who
will state (and in fact, try to adapt reality sometimes) that it isn't
entirely innate, and even more who will say that actually, with regards
to civil rights issues, it doesn't matter, it is about harm - and none
is done in consentual relationships.

Again Kevin shows how he blathers without any knowledge.

>is, if homosexuality is found to be innate, then it should be able to be
>repaired physiologically, something which most gays would reject.

`Repairing' has been tried over and over and over and over again. It 
wouldn't be anything new. And besides, purely psychologically,
`repairing' has very little to do with innateness, as the treatement
of many traits in society shows, like lefthandedness, hair-color or
temper.

Again Kevin demonstrates how he blathers without knowledge.

							FJ!!


From ganymede@newpop.sccsi.com Mon Jan  1 23:32:46 PST 1996
Article: 18412 of alt.revisionism
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From: ganymede@newpop.sccsi.com (Greg R. Broderick)
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Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 96 18:37:32 GMT
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In article <4c73lk$3hg@news.netvision.net.il>, kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

>For the moment you assume a falsehood. There is no hard evidence to
>prove that homosexuality is innate and far more evidence to prove that
>it is sociological and environmental in origin. The question is, if 
>there is no solid evidence to establish the innateness of homosexuality 
>then why are we teaching that it's not a choice? The burden of proof 
>rests upon those who want us to believe that homosexuality is innate. 
>This proof they have failed to provide. In Israel I interviewed the person 
>responsible for the nations sex education curriculum. She candidly told 
>me, we really don't know what causes homosexuality, but in the same breath 
>she stated, it's not a choice. From my perspective this seems a little 
>reckless, seeing as how sexual experimentation can and does lead to 
>established behaviors. 

There is no hard evidence to prove that Judaism is innate and far more 
evidence to prove that it is sociological and environmental in origin. The 
question is, if there is no solid evidence to establish the innateness of 
Judaism then why are we teaching that it's not a choice?  Why is Judaism 
protected by Constitutional rights, when homosexuality is not ?

..

In Israel I interviewed the person responsible for the nations religious 
education curriculum. He candidly told me, we really don't know what causes 
Judaism, but in the same breath she stated, it's not a choice.  From my 
perspective this seems a little reckless, seeing as how religious 
experimentation can and does lead to established behaviors. 


>Gay advocates have no proof to substantiate their claims for the 
>normalization and acceptance of homosexuality. 

This statement does not follow from your prior argument, it is a non sequitur, 
and therefore stands or falls, as well as all argument derived from this 
statement as an unsupported assertion.

Moreover, this statement flies in the face of history -- considering the 
number of known homosexuals throughout the ages, it is plausibly true 
statement that homosexuality has been a part of human sexual behaviour 
throughout recorded history.  This statement also flies in the face of 
psychological research (c.f. Dr. Evelyn Hooker) which has shown no 
identifiable behavioural or psychological dysfunction to be inextricably 
linked to homosexual orientation or behaviour.

>It therefore follows, that if homosexuality is not innate, but at some point, 
>a chosen behavior, what are we doing designating them minorirty status? 

It therefore follows, that if Judasim is not innate, but at some point, a 
chosen behavior, what are we doing designating them "minorirty" status?

>What are we doing allowing sexual conduct to be used as a basis from which to 
>accord minority status? 

What are we doing allowing religious conduct to be used as a basis from which 
to accord minority status? 

>No Neal, the burden of proof lays far more with homosexualists and those who 
>have worked to sell the gay cause. So far, they haven't even entered into 
>open debate on the issue. Maybe it's time. This could be a tremendous 
>learning experience for the whole nation. Maybe even a new lease on life!


>> You need to take a few courses in critical thinking, specializing in 
>> burden of proof.
>
>I think before you make statements such as this, which could prove to
>be embarrassing to yourself, you should research the subject a little 
>more. As you must appreciate, you do not have a monopoly on `critical
>thinking.' 
> 
>> > I am saying, and will continue to say, that in all areas, whether
>> > historical, religious or scientific you have no legitimate basis 
>> > upon which to substantiate your claims for acceptance other, than it 
>> > being a personal `preference' or `orientation.'
> 
>> Oh?  You mean.. um.. like... uh... RELIGION?  Is there a Jew gene?  
>> How about an Episcopalian gene?  If you claim there is NO LEGITIMATE 
>> BASIS for any rights based on 'choice' then you give up any rights 
>> based on religion because any such are, by your own definition, 
>> INVALID.  I do not hold that homosexuality is a choice any more than 
>> heterosexuality is a choice.  I, being heterosexual, never had ANY 
>> time in my life where I was equally attracted to either sex and just 
>> one day made the decision to be heterosexual and that I could just 
>> change that choice on a whim as you seem to be claiming of homosexual 
>> orientation.  It is, to me, similar to right handed or left 
>> handedness.  SURE... you could with great effort force someone who is 
>> left handed to act right handed, but it will REMAIN unnatural for them 
>> to do so.
>
>The Jewish people have established cultural, ethnic, linguistic, religious 
>and a literary tradition which goes back thousands of years. How can you 
>possibly compare everything it means to be Jewish to a sexual disfunction?

And homosexuality, if we are to believe your interpretation of Genesis 18, and 
ignore Ezekiel's interpretation of Genesis 18 (c.f. Ezekiel 16:49 - 50), has 
existed longer than has Judaism, seeing as Judaism (the Abrahamic covenant) 
was not instituted until well after Lot was extracted from Sodom before its 
destruction.

>> However if you wish to just consider it a choice and claim that no 
>> rights accrue just from choice... I suggest you are extremely ill 
>> informed.
>
>You have already said this. I would respond, it is YOU who appears to be
>"ill-informed" and casting aspersions. If a man "chooses" to enter into a 
>loving and mutually consentual sexual relationship with a prepubertal boy, 
>what would be your response? Would you say that the man made an acceptable 
>`choice?' In your opinion, is the boy old enough to consent? I'm sure 
>you're familiar with NAMBLA?

If a man "chooses" to attempt to convert a prepubertal boy to Judaism, what 
would be your response?

Aside from the above, pederasty bears no more relation to homosexuality than 
rape bears to heterosexuality.  Should we condemn a mutually loving, adult, 
consentual heterosexual relationship because some heterosexual men rape women 
?  If not, then why should we condemn a mutually loving, adult, homosexual 
relationship because some men molest little boys (and girls) ?  

>> > What I am also saying is that homosexuals have a responsiblity to 
>> >the rest of the community which they don't seem to care about, 
>> >regardless of the harm they are causing. 
> 
>> What harm is this, and why should they care about you when you have 
>> nothing but hateful and venomous intolerant bigotry against them?  You 
>> are asking the jews to love their nazi persecuters as they shove them 
>> into the camp ovens!
>
>I do not hate "them," nor do I know who "them" are. However, I condemn 
>homosexuality as a destructive and debilitating behavior, a behavior 
>which we should do everything in our power to repress and avoid. A person 
>can't have it both ways, to be known as a `homosexual' and as a dignified 
>human being at the same moment. Labels play a large role in this game. 

You have yet to provide incontrovertible support for your unbutressed 
assertion that homosexuality is a "destructive and debilitating behavior", 
Kevin.  Until you do so, your argument is worthless.

>> > Can you prove to us that homosexuality is not
>> > harmful, to both the individual and society? 
> 
>> You are the one who has to prove that it IS.
>
>No, it is you Neal, who must prove that it isn't! 

He who asserts bears the burden of proof, Kevin.  You have made unsupported 
assertions.  You hhave failed to provide proper support for these assertions 
when challenged, therefore these assertions are worthless.


>Shalom,
>
>Kevin E. Abrams
>
>> Neal Feldman    "Fight Fascism!"
>> Salem, Oregon                   "Defeat the Religious Reich!"
>> thanatos@cyberhighway.net

--
============================================================================
Greg R. Broderick        And it came to pass that in the hands of the
                         ignorant, the words of the Bible were used to beat
                         plowshares into swords.
greg@qrd.org                                                  -- Alan Watts
ganymede@sccsi.com
70142.620@compuserve.com
============================================================================


From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:48 PST 1996
Article: 18421 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 02:21:30 PDT
Organization: NetVision LTD.
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Apuleius wrote,

> Much of the responsibility for the Holocaust must rest on corrupt,
> amoral people like you.
 
Apuleius,

"Amoral" means morally neutral. How could you say such a thing about
 me? Does being an ethical monotheist to you mean that I'm morally 
 neutral?

"Amoral" Def: `being neither immoral or moral.'

Regards,

Kevin E. Abrams


From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:49 PST 1996
Article: 18425 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 02:26:06 PDT
Organization: NetVision LTD.
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Apulieus wrote,
 
> The comparison is not sexual 'behavior' but sexual orientation. Didn't
> your big list of rabbi teachers include any science in your education?

You know Apuleius, the only thing I can think of, is that your own
life is so miserable, you have to run everyone else down. Pity.

Regards,

kevin E. Abrams 



From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Mon Jan  1 23:32:50 PST 1996
Article: 18426 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
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Subject: Re: Hoist with his own petard again.
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 96 02:02:16 PDT
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> kevin_e@netvision.net.il (Kevin Abrams) wrote, 
 
> »»The Nazis did not persecute homosexuals. This is `gay' propaganda.
> »»The historical record reveals an entirely different picture than the
> »»one you have become accustomed to. 

Apuleius

> Let me quote you something:

O.K.
 
> "In February of 1933, Hitler banned pornography, homosexual bars and
> bath-houses, and groups which promoted 'gay-rights.'"

   The Bund fur Menschensrecht (Society for Human Rights) which became
   the largest homosexual rights movement in Germany, and was founded
   "by" the Nazis, had fulfilled its purpose. Remember, the Nazis came 
   to power on January 30, 1933? Roehm's `gay' street thugs were no 
   longer required. Besides they were an open embarrassment, and most of 
   the German public was sick of them and their `gay' orgies at the Brown 
   House in Berlin. 
 
> Do you think that is persecution to ban groups working for the
> political rights of their members?

   Sure, the foolish effeminate Jewish homosexual Magnus, Hirschfeld did
   much to help Nazi homofascism come out of the closet. It backfired and
   he had to flee for his life to France.

   In all, it was a political descision to calm the German public and
   to put an end to "revolutionary" activities.
 
> Do you recognize what I have quoted?

   Yes. So what's your point? The suspense is driving us crazy.....

> Do you know where I got that quote?

   I'm still waiting.
 
> Here's the source:

   At last.....
 
> The Pink Swastika, by Kevin Abrams & Scott Lively, page 95.

   Phew! Thanks Apuleius.


From kaz@upx.net Tue Jan  2 15:14:18 PST 1996
Article: 18490 of alt.revisionism
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From: kaz@upx.net (KAZ Vorpal)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
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Date: 2 Jan 1996 16:47:38 GMT
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mkelly10@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>)>Homofascists dominated the Nazi Party. 

>)Then how come Nazis persecuted homosexuals?

>)>Can you prove they didn't?
>)Holo
>)Can you prove they did? Why don't you go check the Holocaust Museum? It
>)states there, very plainly, that the Nazis persecuted homosexuals. Why
>)would they persecute their own???? Answer: They wouldn't!!!!

	err...again you are arguing a valid position using a fallaceous point.

	Of course homosexuals could oppress homosexuals. That's like 
saying that whites can't oppress whites, et cetera.

	Before the Holocaust, wealthy Jews did actually help finance the 
Nazis. Does this prove that they were not Jewish? They were told by the 
Nazi leadership that the Anti-Jew stuff was just anti-wealthy propoganda 
used to buy power, that they needn't worry about it. Thus extenuating 
circumstances.

	And of course there are similar problems in your homosexuality 
argument. They could hate themselves. They could consider themselves 
different than the "class" of homosexuals.

	Or, as is almost certainly the case, they could just be looking 
for a group to use as a scapegoat for their class warfare, and as long as 
nobody knew their own sexual preferences they didn't care whom they 
betrayed or tortured.

>)>Can you prove that homosexuality is `innate'?

>)Let's see. There have been tests with mice that, with minor brain
>)surgery, caused male mice to chase after female mice, evidence that the
>)brains of homosexuals and heterosexuals may be different, so I'd say
>)yes.

	That's stupid. You could alter their brains to make them kill 
themselves, too, does that prove that being suicidal is "innate"?

	And ALL of the "evidence" that homosexuality is "genetic" is 
similarly junk science. None of it isolates the mechanism for this trait, 
which is what any real scientist would do.

	And YOU DO NOT WANT IT TO BE GENETIC. Stop and think about it. 
I see that you don't want to be claimed to be responsible for your own 
actions, so you want it to be genetic...but you're not following this 
through in your mind.
	If it's genetic, then it -IS- a mere defect. It is nothing more 
than a curable genetic trait. The Nazis -did- believe it genetic. Their 
solution should illustrate to you the obvious conclusion of your line of 
reasoning. If it had been considered a simple matter of taste in Weimar 
Germany, then the Nazis could not have used their genetic purification 
arguments to oppress homosexuals. The Nazis -did- have arguments and 
rationale for -all- of their oppressive actions, you know.

>)>Can you prove that homosexuality is a benefit to
>)>either the individual or society?

>)Can you prove it is not a benefit? Without going into stupid religious,
>)"moral" ramblings without any hint of logic, that is?

	Of course he can't. Your point should be that you don't NEED to 
prove it, not -just- that he can't disprove it. You need to stand on your 
rights to do anything that doesn't attack other people directly.

>)>Can you prove that homosexualism is not predatory?

>)Can you prove that it is?

	Now you need to point out that you don't have to prove a 
negative. This is an impossible demand. Prove that there is not a giant 
blue hamster holding the universe under its thumb. You can't disprove it. 
But the important question is whether anyone can prove it -does- exist. 
	You needed to spell that out. He can't say that the hamster 
doesn't exist just because you can't disprove it, and he can't say that 
homosexuals are predators just because you can't disprove it.
	I know you implied that, but if he were smart enough to get it he 
wouldn't be making the argument in the first place.

>)>Can you explain how homosexualism is equal to heterosexism?

>)Can you prove that it is inferior?

	See? Same problems. First, even if it's inferior he has no right 
to prohibit it, and second, he has to show it's inferior, not you have to 
show it's equal. 

>)>Can you tell us, on what basis did the APA remove homosexuality
>)>from its Diognostics and Statistics manual?

>)It's as much a mental disease as having blue eyes is a mental disease.

	No, you're doing it again. You give him ammunition with 
ridiculous comparisons like that. Homosexuality -is- mental, and would be 
even if it were genetic...but blue eyes is cosmetic. 


--

Words of the Sentient:

Lawyers are the only person in whom ignorance of the law is not punished.
--Jeremy Bentham


From kaz@upx.net Tue Jan  2 15:39:28 PST 1996
Article: 18494 of alt.revisionism
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From: kaz@upx.net (KAZ Vorpal)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

>)> kevin_e@netvision.net.il writes: 
>)> >dionisio writes,

>)> Because of Intolerance.

>)No, because of so-called `human rights' based on `self' determination,
>)which amount to little more than licence and an excuse to be indifferent 
>)to the harmful effects of your actions on society.

	No, but you're more correct than he is. It's not because of 
"intolerance" in the sense that he means...it's because of -separatism-.

	The ruling class for the last sixty years has used the socialist 
trick of artificially exaggerating the separation between various 
arbitrary groups, aka class warfare. They have pitted everyone against 
the straight white male. And you play into it by pitting yourself against 
them in response, instead of scoffing at the -alleged- separation they 
claim.

	Homosexuality is just a matter of taste, like whether you prefer 
coffee, tea, pepsi, or coke. And it's just as stupid to worry about it.

	The ruling class has artificially separated people who happen to 
like the same sex from -you-, and convinced those people that they need 
to -demand- to be treated as a special -class-. Then they use this to get 
elected: They make many heterosexuals feel guilty about how people like 
you react against this new, fake class. They get homosexuals to feel like 
they -have- to belong to this group and support those leaders who 
separate them, no matter whether they would support them on any other 
issue or not.

	Take blacks: Most blacks are very conservative in philosophy, as an 
arbitrary demographic. They support the death penalty to a higher percentage 
than whites, statistically. They are more likely, statistically, to be 
religious. They had a trend toward strong family bonds, until the last 
sixty years of socialism targetted them as an arbitrary group and 
punished them for this.

	Yet many black individuals are fooled into thinking that they 
-must- vote Democrat, even if it's a Liberal who they're supporting 
against their personal beliefs, because the ruling class has pitted them 
against whites and then "taken their side". 

Each time some Liberal talks about needing to get his "core constituency" 
out to save the Democrats, he doesn't mean people WITH THE SAME BELIEFS, 
he instead means the arbitrary groups of peoople, like homosexuals, 
blacks, and women, whom his party has taught to blindly follow his 
leadership, based solely on the "us versus them" mentality he has 
created. 

	So the root problem is not "intolerance", and it's not freedom of 
choice. You're both wrong. It is the pitting of you against him. A lot of 
people do a lot of things you don't approve of, yet which you are willing 
to ignore...because those people haven't been grouped together and 
-identified- by that thing you don't like, and pitted against you.


>)> >Crime has increased with the advent of sexual `liberation' (licence).
>) 
>)> Crime has increase due to the Drug War's Underground Market effects,
>)> including crimes by police and the government in general.

>)Drugs are another discussion, but are often linked to 
>)corrupt sexual activities. Any individual in bondage to their passions
>)will not be the least bit concerned for the freedom and welfare of others.

	This would include your passion for opposing this ridiculous 
grouping of Homosexual Versus Heterosexual. You are forgetting the 
concern for the freedom and welfare of others yourself, because you are 
being tricked into it, as is your opponant, by this class warfare.

	The same applies to the drug prohibition. Any close examination will 
tell you that it is having the same effects as the alcohol prohibition; 
more drug abuse, more crime, more suffering, more people imprisoned until 
real criminals get set free to make room. But the -cause- is used to get 
you to blindly vote for its supporters...
	This is why ever more -Conservatives- oppose the drug 
prohibition, and ever more Liberals support it. The drug war fits the 
class warfare philosophy of the Liberals more than it does the 
Restrained-Government philosophy of the Conservatives.

>)> >Sexual licence leads to more drug abuse, AIDS, younger age pregnancy,
>)> >abortion as a method of birth control and crime in general. 

>)Sexual corruption and exploitation are the root of most, if not all
>)other crime. A new and improved sexual morality would do wonders towards
>)solving America's present cultural crisis.

	Oh, that's just silly. Bank robbers are sex criminals? No, what 
you mean to say is that the crimes you SEE ON TELEVISION often have 
something, vaguely, to do with sex, because this sells and enforces the 
class warfare.

>)> Prohibition of drugs leads to more crime via the underground market,
>)> higher AIDS rates due to prohibition of needle-exchange programs or
>)> legal sales in pharmacies.

>)Sexual corruption increases the demand for drugs. If our
>)sexual constitution is wrong, then nothing else will be right.

	How exactly does sexual anything increase demand for drugs? 

	Gee, by that logic anyone with a poor diet will be homosexual and 
a drug user; if our diet isn't right, nothing else will be either.

	A ridiculous statement like that needs some -vague- degree of 
logical support. You're placing -way- too much importance on sex here. 

>)> >Of course, libertinists will, with a straight face, deny this.  
>) 
>)> Of course, Religious Supremists will answer all these issues with more
>)> violence and less Liberty.

>)Ethical monothesists seek truth, justice and compassion. The goal is to
>)rectify and repair. The goal is not to produce those who are vanquished
>)and defer to those who become the victors. The original concept of equality
>)meant that all were equal before the law, not the socialist concept that 
>)everyone is forced into becoming the same. Besides, the reality of socialism 
>)is that no one is equal before the law. Social`ism' is a political ideology
>)whereas social justice is an objective principle based on the Bible. 

	Monotheists? You do realize your religion isn't the only one that 
is monotheistic, and that every single -ethical- belief of your religion 
could easily be part of a polytheistic religion too, don't you?

	I would say that any rational being seeks truth, justice and 
compassion as his ethical system within a society, because it is 
pragmatic. 

	You are still correct about the falsity of socialism, which takes 
away all freedom of choice for a central control system...but this is 
also what you propose if you advocate central control of morality as 
well. 
	You are essentially being a moral socialist. And every argument 
you apply to economic socialism will apply to your moral socialism.

>)> >>The reputed causal link between intolerance levels towards
>)> >>homosexuals and resulting societal health has been disproven by
>)> >>example.  Not only do the above cited examples contradict the
>)> >>proposed relationship directly, but they suggest that it's exactly
>)> >>backwards:  attitudes about homosexuality REFLECT the level of
>)> >>cultural health, not act as a causal agent.  In other words,
>)> >>intolerance of homosexuality appears to be the effect of violent,
>)> >>harsh, and/or authoritarian regimes, while tolerance of homosexuality
>)> >>appears to be the hallmark of humane and civilized cultures. 
>) 
>)> Such as Holland, with a more tolerant drug policy, a tolerant sexual
>)> policy, all with lower AIDS rates and crime rates.

>)What do you mean, Holland is falling apart!

	hmmm...if it's falling apart, it's the socialism, as you noted, 
not the freedom of choice. In fact, it's the LACK of freedom of choice 
>from  socialism...and that damage results from any kind of lack of freedom 
of choice.

>)> >Before America `tolerated' homosexualism it was a far more 
>)> >compassionate and tolerant society. 
>) 
>)> Was that when preachers used to preach segregation, where there were
>)> black and white water-fountians, where gays were sent to mental
>)> hospitals and tortured, where women were sterilized, where blacks were
>)> kept out of votin
>)> g due to poll taxes, where lynchings of african americans were common
>)> and ignored by the `faithfull'???

>)There have been many injustices perpetrated in the past, most of which we
>)shall not address in this posting. Sexual disfunctions are some of the most
>)difficult and often most misunderstood problems. Homosexuality is a riddle,
>)but based on experience it is definately something we in good conscience,
>)cannot accept as either normal or morally correct.

	I would say that any obsessing on sex would be sexual 
dysfunction. Both obsessing with being homosexual, and obsessing with 
being heterosexual.
	If he were obsessing with coffee drinking, and demanding special 
rights, and let's say you prefer tea, would your obsessing on tea and 
opposing all coffee drinking be any healthier than his?
	Imagine that someone comes along and pits him against you, 
telling him he needs special treatment as a coffee drinker. Do you 
reinforce this by trying to attack his coffee drinking, as a defense, or 
do you point out that the whole issue is bullshit?

>)> >Notice how violence is on the "increase," as sexual `licence' impacts
>)> >on the nation.
>) 
>)> You ignore the impact of the Drug War, which creates underground
>)> markets and violence all over the Earth associated with them.

>)Again, drug abuse is the symptom, not the cause.

	Yes, drug abuse is a symptom of the drug war. Note that the drug 
abuse problem started -after- the first heavy enforcement of the drug 
prohibition in the early sixties, but -before- the heavy separatist 
movement among the fake homosexual leaders. Cause and effect.

>)> You ignore the Violence that you preach in denying people their right
>)> to be free of Religious Laws - which Initiate Violence.

>)Violence is neutral, it's all a matter of who's using it. The `freedom'
>)which some seek is the same freedom a dog has to run in the street. This,
>)for human beings is not freedom at all, but licence and the destruction
>)of human dignity. Those who seek to destroy society must be restrained.

	The idea that there are special classes of violence is part of 
the socialist class warfare tactic. It lets them use violence and claim 
to be less evil, and lets them demonize the kinds of violence they want 
to focus upon...

	For example: There is far more violence against men than women. 
Some socialist/Liberal the other day mentioned that there was violence 
against a woman every n seconds...yet didn't mention that there was 
violence against a man THREE times in that same period. Their target here 
is the women, pitting them against men and guarentying their political 
support...

>)> >The one thing which was noticable in America during the last world
>)> >war, was its realtively high sexual mores, contrary to Berlin, which
>)> >Hitler himself called, "the whore of Babylon."
>) 
>)> As if Hitler was moral!!!

>)Hitler as evil as he was, was a genius and a very observant and 
>)in many ways, an intuitive person. He was also a master polititian, 
>)although to me, this even today, is a dubious honor.

	Yeah, he was a genius at pitting people against each other, and 
he needed people like you as much as people like your opponant. Think of 
these two quotes:

"The wealthy, priveledged race..." Hitler, about Jews
"The wealthy, priveledged race..." Clinton, about Whites

	It takes both sides to make this war work. Both of you are being 
sucked into the socialist class hate trap.

>)> >America became great because she rejected homosexuality and sexual 
>)> >promiscuity in general. Today, western society is FAILING, largely 
>)> >because of its acceptance of sexual deviance and infidelity.
>) 
>)> Failing to `love thy neighbor' because of Hate and prejudice like
>)> yours.

>)In loving our children and our neighbors mustn't we be willing to
>)say "no," when when it's required?

	What? America became great because of WHAT? Oh, it wasn't the 
freedom of choice, eh? Nothing to do with the free market systems which 
made us grow from last place to first place over the course of a mere 
century. It was sexual repression, which gave us enough energy in the 
form of frustration and tension to allow us to be more productive! 
	Even if we'd been socialist, we'd have been the same success, as 
long as we didn't screw to much...

>)> >	"Sexual licence leads to VIOLENCE & BRUTALITY.
>)> >	Those held in a state of sexual bandage, can do little
>)> >	towards the freedom and welfare of others, to the contrary,
>)> >	they will usurp the freedom of others."
>) 
>)> So, your answer for homosexuality, drug use, prostitution...
>)> ...is NOT to usurp the freedom of others????

>)This depends on what you call `freedom.' If by `freedom' you mean
>)the `licence' to destroy human dignity and commit a fraud against the
>)whole of the society you live in, shouldn't this person's freedom be
>)challenged? We restrict the freedom of many people in our society, for
>)instance there's those drug pushers you're worried about. Then there's
>)child molesters and rapists. Don't we restrict their freedom? Don't all
>)those who promote sexual debauchery and a breakdown of civilized human
>)behavior deserve similar treatment? Should anyone be permited to place 
>)a stumbling block before the blind? Are we not our brother's keeper?

	Human dignity? Are you talking about outlawing slapstick comedy? 

	The most terrible violation of human dignity is the prohibition 
of personal choice.

	You're Christian, right? Jesus didn't try to force anyone to do 
anything. He never advocated the State imposing -anything-. He -advised- 
people, and then left them with the dignity to listen or to make a 
mistake instead.

--
Secrets of the Sentient
Did You Know:
Black households making more than $35K a year grew from 2.6 million people in
1979 to 3.9 million people in 1989.


From kaz@upx.net Tue Jan  2 16:02:18 PST 1996
Article: 18129 of alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.charm.net!news.cais.net!news.his.com!ultraplex.upx.net!kaz
From: kaz@upx.net (KAZ Vorpal)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Followup-To: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Date: 2 Jan 1996 17:34:53 GMT
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

>)> kevin_e@netvision.net.il writes: 
>)> >dionisio writes,

>)> Because of Intolerance.

>)No, because of so-called `human rights' based on `self' determination,
>)which amount to little more than licence and an excuse to be indifferent 
>)to the harmful effects of your actions on society.

	No, but you're more correct than he is. It's not because of 
"intolerance" in the sense that he means...it's because of -separatism-.

	The ruling class for the last sixty years has used the socialist 
trick of artificially exaggerating the separation between various 
arbitrary groups, aka class warfare. They have pitted everyone against 
the straight white male. And you play into it by pitting yourself against 
them in response, instead of scoffing at the -alleged- separation they 
claim.

	Homosexuality is just a matter of taste, like whether you prefer 
coffee, tea, pepsi, or coke. And it's just as stupid to worry about it.

	The ruling class has artificially separated people who happen to 
like the same sex from -you-, and convinced those people that they need 
to -demand- to be treated as a special -class-. Then they use this to get 
elected: They make many heterosexuals feel guilty about how people like 
you react against this new, fake class. They get homosexuals to feel like 
they -have- to belong to this group and support those leaders who 
separate them, no matter whether they would support them on any other 
issue or not.

	Take blacks: Most blacks are very conservative in philosophy, as an 
arbitrary demographic. They support the death penalty to a higher percentage 
than whites, statistically. They are more likely, statistically, to be 
religious. They had a trend toward strong family bonds, until the last 
sixty years of socialism targetted them as an arbitrary group and 
punished them for this.

	Yet many black individuals are fooled into thinking that they 
-must- vote Democrat, even if it's a Liberal who they're supporting 
against their personal beliefs, because the ruling class has pitted them 
against whites and then "taken their side". 

Each time some Liberal talks about needing to get his "core constituency" 
out to save the Democrats, he doesn't mean people WITH THE SAME BELIEFS, 
he instead means the arbitrary groups of peoople, like homosexuals, 
blacks, and women, whom his party has taught to blindly follow his 
leadership, based solely on the "us versus them" mentality he has 
created. 

	So the root problem is not "intolerance", and it's not freedom of 
choice. You're both wrong. It is the pitting of you against him. A lot of 
people do a lot of things you don't approve of, yet which you are willing 
to ignore...because those people haven't been grouped together and 
-identified- by that thing you don't like, and pitted against you.


>)> >Crime has increased with the advent of sexual `liberation' (licence).
>) 
>)> Crime has increase due to the Drug War's Underground Market effects,
>)> including crimes by police and the government in general.

>)Drugs are another discussion, but are often linked to 
>)corrupt sexual activities. Any individual in bondage to their passions
>)will not be the least bit concerned for the freedom and welfare of others.

	This would include your passion for opposing this ridiculous 
grouping of Homosexual Versus Heterosexual. You are forgetting the 
concern for the freedom and welfare of others yourself, because you are 
being tricked into it, as is your opponant, by this class warfare.

	The same applies to the drug prohibition. Any close examination will 
tell you that it is having the same effects as the alcohol prohibition; 
more drug abuse, more crime, more suffering, more people imprisoned until 
real criminals get set free to make room. But the -cause- is used to get 
you to blindly vote for its supporters...
	This is why ever more -Conservatives- oppose the drug 
prohibition, and ever more Liberals support it. The drug war fits the 
class warfare philosophy of the Liberals more than it does the 
Restrained-Government philosophy of the Conservatives.

>)> >Sexual licence leads to more drug abuse, AIDS, younger age pregnancy,
>)> >abortion as a method of birth control and crime in general. 

>)Sexual corruption and exploitation are the root of most, if not all
>)other crime. A new and improved sexual morality would do wonders towards
>)solving America's present cultural crisis.

	Oh, that's just silly. Bank robbers are sex criminals? No, what 
you mean to say is that the crimes you SEE ON TELEVISION often have 
something, vaguely, to do with sex, because this sells and enforces the 
class warfare.

>)> Prohibition of drugs leads to more crime via the underground market,
>)> higher AIDS rates due to prohibition of needle-exchange programs or
>)> legal sales in pharmacies.

>)Sexual corruption increases the demand for drugs. If our
>)sexual constitution is wrong, then nothing else will be right.

	How exactly does sexual anything increase demand for drugs? 

	Gee, by that logic anyone with a poor diet will be homosexual and 
a drug user; if our diet isn't right, nothing else will be either.

	A ridiculous statement like that needs some -vague- degree of 
logical support. You're placing -way- too much importance on sex here. 

>)> >Of course, libertinists will, with a straight face, deny this.  
>) 
>)> Of course, Religious Supremists will answer all these issues with more
>)> violence and less Liberty.

>)Ethical monothesists seek truth, justice and compassion. The goal is to
>)rectify and repair. The goal is not to produce those who are vanquished
>)and defer to those who become the victors. The original concept of equality
>)meant that all were equal before the law, not the socialist concept that 
>)everyone is forced into becoming the same. Besides, the reality of socialism 
>)is that no one is equal before the law. Social`ism' is a political ideology
>)whereas social justice is an objective principle based on the Bible. 

	Monotheists? You do realize your religion isn't the only one that 
is monotheistic, and that every single -ethical- belief of your religion 
could easily be part of a polytheistic religion too, don't you?

	I would say that any rational being seeks truth, justice and 
compassion as his ethical system within a society, because it is 
pragmatic. 

	You are still correct about the falsity of socialism, which takes 
away all freedom of choice for a central control system...but this is 
also what you propose if you advocate central control of morality as 
well. 
	You are essentially being a moral socialist. And every argument 
you apply to economic socialism will apply to your moral socialism.

>)> >>The reputed causal link between intolerance levels towards
>)> >>homosexuals and resulting societal health has been disproven by
>)> >>example.  Not only do the above cited examples contradict the
>)> >>proposed relationship directly, but they suggest that it's exactly
>)> >>backwards:  attitudes about homosexuality REFLECT the level of
>)> >>cultural health, not act as a causal agent.  In other words,
>)> >>intolerance of homosexuality appears to be the effect of violent,
>)> >>harsh, and/or authoritarian regimes, while tolerance of homosexuality
>)> >>appears to be the hallmark of humane and civilized cultures. 
>) 
>)> Such as Holland, with a more tolerant drug policy, a tolerant sexual
>)> policy, all with lower AIDS rates and crime rates.

>)What do you mean, Holland is falling apart!

	hmmm...if it's falling apart, it's the socialism, as you noted, 
not the freedom of choice. In fact, it's the LACK of freedom of choice 
>from  socialism...and that damage results from any kind of lack of freedom 
of choice.

>)> >Before America `tolerated' homosexualism it was a far more 
>)> >compassionate and tolerant society. 
>) 
>)> Was that when preachers used to preach segregation, where there were
>)> black and white water-fountians, where gays were sent to mental
>)> hospitals and tortured, where women were sterilized, where blacks were
>)> kept out of votin
>)> g due to poll taxes, where lynchings of african americans were common
>)> and ignored by the `faithfull'???

>)There have been many injustices perpetrated in the past, most of which we
>)shall not address in this posting. Sexual disfunctions are some of the most
>)difficult and often most misunderstood problems. Homosexuality is a riddle,
>)but based on experience it is definately something we in good conscience,
>)cannot accept as either normal or morally correct.

	I would say that any obsessing on sex would be sexual 
dysfunction. Both obsessing with being homosexual, and obsessing with 
being heterosexual.
	If he were obsessing with coffee drinking, and demanding special 
rights, and let's say you prefer tea, would your obsessing on tea and 
opposing all coffee drinking be any healthier than his?
	Imagine that someone comes along and pits him against you, 
telling him he needs special treatment as a coffee drinker. Do you 
reinforce this by trying to attack his coffee drinking, as a defense, or 
do you point out that the whole issue is bullshit?

>)> >Notice how violence is on the "increase," as sexual `licence' impacts
>)> >on the nation.
>) 
>)> You ignore the impact of the Drug War, which creates underground
>)> markets and violence all over the Earth associated with them.

>)Again, drug abuse is the symptom, not the cause.

	Yes, drug abuse is a symptom of the drug war. Note that the drug 
abuse problem started -after- the first heavy enforcement of the drug 
prohibition in the early sixties, but -before- the heavy separatist 
movement among the fake homosexual leaders. Cause and effect.

>)> You ignore the Violence that you preach in denying people their right
>)> to be free of Religious Laws - which Initiate Violence.

>)Violence is neutral, it's all a matter of who's using it. The `freedom'
>)which some seek is the same freedom a dog has to run in the street. This,
>)for human beings is not freedom at all, but licence and the destruction
>)of human dignity. Those who seek to destroy society must be restrained.

	The idea that there are special classes of violence is part of 
the socialist class warfare tactic. It lets them use violence and claim 
to be less evil, and lets them demonize the kinds of violence they want 
to focus upon...

	For example: There is far more violence against men than women. 
Some socialist/Liberal the other day mentioned that there was violence 
against a woman every n seconds...yet didn't mention that there was 
violence against a man THREE times in that same period. Their target here 
is the women, pitting them against men and guarentying their political 
support...

>)> >The one thing which was noticable in America during the last world
>)> >war, was its realtively high sexual mores, contrary to Berlin, which
>)> >Hitler himself called, "the whore of Babylon."
>) 
>)> As if Hitler was moral!!!

>)Hitler as evil as he was, was a genius and a very observant and 
>)in many ways, an intuitive person. He was also a master polititian, 
>)although to me, this even today, is a dubious honor.

	Yeah, he was a genius at pitting people against each other, and 
he needed people like you as much as people like your opponant. Think of 
these two quotes:

"The wealthy, priveledged race..." Hitler, about Jews
"The wealthy, priveledged race..." Clinton, about Whites

	It takes both sides to make this war work. Both of you are being 
sucked into the socialist class hate trap.

>)> >America became great because she rejected homosexuality and sexual 
>)> >promiscuity in general. Today, western society is FAILING, largely 
>)> >because of its acceptance of sexual deviance and infidelity.
>) 
>)> Failing to `love thy neighbor' because of Hate and prejudice like
>)> yours.

>)In loving our children and our neighbors mustn't we be willing to
>)say "no," when when it's required?

	What? America became great because of WHAT? Oh, it wasn't the 
freedom of choice, eh? Nothing to do with the free market systems which 
made us grow from last place to first place over the course of a mere 
century. It was sexual repression, which gave us enough energy in the 
form of frustration and tension to allow us to be more productive! 
	Even if we'd been socialist, we'd have been the same success, as 
long as we didn't screw to much...

>)> >	"Sexual licence leads to VIOLENCE & BRUTALITY.
>)> >	Those held in a state of sexual bandage, can do little
>)> >	towards the freedom and welfare of others, to the contrary,
>)> >	they will usurp the freedom of others."
>) 
>)> So, your answer for homosexuality, drug use, prostitution...
>)> ...is NOT to usurp the freedom of others????

>)This depends on what you call `freedom.' If by `freedom' you mean
>)the `licence' to destroy human dignity and commit a fraud against the
>)whole of the society you live in, shouldn't this person's freedom be
>)challenged? We restrict the freedom of many people in our society, for
>)instance there's those drug pushers you're worried about. Then there's
>)child molesters and rapists. Don't we restrict their freedom? Don't all
>)those who promote sexual debauchery and a breakdown of civilized human
>)behavior deserve similar treatment? Should anyone be permited to place 
>)a stumbling block before the blind? Are we not our brother's keeper?

	Human dignity? Are you talking about outlawing slapstick comedy? 

	The most terrible violation of human dignity is the prohibition 
of personal choice.

	You're Christian, right? Jesus didn't try to force anyone to do 
anything. He never advocated the State imposing -anything-. He -advised- 
people, and then left them with the dignity to listen or to make a 
mistake instead.

--
Secrets of the Sentient
Did You Know:
Black households making more than $35K a year grew from 2.6 million people in
1979 to 3.9 million people in 1989.


From kaz@upx.net Tue Jan  2 16:32:30 PST 1996
Article: 39266 of alt.society.civil-liberty
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.charm.net!news.cais.net!news.his.com!ultraplex.upx.net!kaz
From: kaz@upx.net (KAZ Vorpal)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Followup-To: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Date: 2 Jan 1996 17:34:53 GMT
Organization: UltraPlex
Lines: 289
Message-ID: <4cbqbt$gis@news2.his.com>
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

>)> kevin_e@netvision.net.il writes: 
>)> >dionisio writes,

>)> Because of Intolerance.

>)No, because of so-called `human rights' based on `self' determination,
>)which amount to little more than licence and an excuse to be indifferent 
>)to the harmful effects of your actions on society.

	No, but you're more correct than he is. It's not because of 
"intolerance" in the sense that he means...it's because of -separatism-.

	The ruling class for the last sixty years has used the socialist 
trick of artificially exaggerating the separation between various 
arbitrary groups, aka class warfare. They have pitted everyone against 
the straight white male. And you play into it by pitting yourself against 
them in response, instead of scoffing at the -alleged- separation they 
claim.

	Homosexuality is just a matter of taste, like whether you prefer 
coffee, tea, pepsi, or coke. And it's just as stupid to worry about it.

	The ruling class has artificially separated people who happen to 
like the same sex from -you-, and convinced those people that they need 
to -demand- to be treated as a special -class-. Then they use this to get 
elected: They make many heterosexuals feel guilty about how people like 
you react against this new, fake class. They get homosexuals to feel like 
they -have- to belong to this group and support those leaders who 
separate them, no matter whether they would support them on any other 
issue or not.

	Take blacks: Most blacks are very conservative in philosophy, as an 
arbitrary demographic. They support the death penalty to a higher percentage 
than whites, statistically. They are more likely, statistically, to be 
religious. They had a trend toward strong family bonds, until the last 
sixty years of socialism targetted them as an arbitrary group and 
punished them for this.

	Yet many black individuals are fooled into thinking that they 
-must- vote Democrat, even if it's a Liberal who they're supporting 
against their personal beliefs, because the ruling class has pitted them 
against whites and then "taken their side". 

Each time some Liberal talks about needing to get his "core constituency" 
out to save the Democrats, he doesn't mean people WITH THE SAME BELIEFS, 
he instead means the arbitrary groups of peoople, like homosexuals, 
blacks, and women, whom his party has taught to blindly follow his 
leadership, based solely on the "us versus them" mentality he has 
created. 

	So the root problem is not "intolerance", and it's not freedom of 
choice. You're both wrong. It is the pitting of you against him. A lot of 
people do a lot of things you don't approve of, yet which you are willing 
to ignore...because those people haven't been grouped together and 
-identified- by that thing you don't like, and pitted against you.


>)> >Crime has increased with the advent of sexual `liberation' (licence).
>) 
>)> Crime has increase due to the Drug War's Underground Market effects,
>)> including crimes by police and the government in general.

>)Drugs are another discussion, but are often linked to 
>)corrupt sexual activities. Any individual in bondage to their passions
>)will not be the least bit concerned for the freedom and welfare of others.

	This would include your passion for opposing this ridiculous 
grouping of Homosexual Versus Heterosexual. You are forgetting the 
concern for the freedom and welfare of others yourself, because you are 
being tricked into it, as is your opponant, by this class warfare.

	The same applies to the drug prohibition. Any close examination will 
tell you that it is having the same effects as the alcohol prohibition; 
more drug abuse, more crime, more suffering, more people imprisoned until 
real criminals get set free to make room. But the -cause- is used to get 
you to blindly vote for its supporters...
	This is why ever more -Conservatives- oppose the drug 
prohibition, and ever more Liberals support it. The drug war fits the 
class warfare philosophy of the Liberals more than it does the 
Restrained-Government philosophy of the Conservatives.

>)> >Sexual licence leads to more drug abuse, AIDS, younger age pregnancy,
>)> >abortion as a method of birth control and crime in general. 

>)Sexual corruption and exploitation are the root of most, if not all
>)other crime. A new and improved sexual morality would do wonders towards
>)solving America's present cultural crisis.

	Oh, that's just silly. Bank robbers are sex criminals? No, what 
you mean to say is that the crimes you SEE ON TELEVISION often have 
something, vaguely, to do with sex, because this sells and enforces the 
class warfare.

>)> Prohibition of drugs leads to more crime via the underground market,
>)> higher AIDS rates due to prohibition of needle-exchange programs or
>)> legal sales in pharmacies.

>)Sexual corruption increases the demand for drugs. If our
>)sexual constitution is wrong, then nothing else will be right.

	How exactly does sexual anything increase demand for drugs? 

	Gee, by that logic anyone with a poor diet will be homosexual and 
a drug user; if our diet isn't right, nothing else will be either.

	A ridiculous statement like that needs some -vague- degree of 
logical support. You're placing -way- too much importance on sex here. 

>)> >Of course, libertinists will, with a straight face, deny this.  
>) 
>)> Of course, Religious Supremists will answer all these issues with more
>)> violence and less Liberty.

>)Ethical monothesists seek truth, justice and compassion. The goal is to
>)rectify and repair. The goal is not to produce those who are vanquished
>)and defer to those who become the victors. The original concept of equality
>)meant that all were equal before the law, not the socialist concept that 
>)everyone is forced into becoming the same. Besides, the reality of socialism 
>)is that no one is equal before the law. Social`ism' is a political ideology
>)whereas social justice is an objective principle based on the Bible. 

	Monotheists? You do realize your religion isn't the only one that 
is monotheistic, and that every single -ethical- belief of your religion 
could easily be part of a polytheistic religion too, don't you?

	I would say that any rational being seeks truth, justice and 
compassion as his ethical system within a society, because it is 
pragmatic. 

	You are still correct about the falsity of socialism, which takes 
away all freedom of choice for a central control system...but this is 
also what you propose if you advocate central control of morality as 
well. 
	You are essentially being a moral socialist. And every argument 
you apply to economic socialism will apply to your moral socialism.

>)> >>The reputed causal link between intolerance levels towards
>)> >>homosexuals and resulting societal health has been disproven by
>)> >>example.  Not only do the above cited examples contradict the
>)> >>proposed relationship directly, but they suggest that it's exactly
>)> >>backwards:  attitudes about homosexuality REFLECT the level of
>)> >>cultural health, not act as a causal agent.  In other words,
>)> >>intolerance of homosexuality appears to be the effect of violent,
>)> >>harsh, and/or authoritarian regimes, while tolerance of homosexuality
>)> >>appears to be the hallmark of humane and civilized cultures. 
>) 
>)> Such as Holland, with a more tolerant drug policy, a tolerant sexual
>)> policy, all with lower AIDS rates and crime rates.

>)What do you mean, Holland is falling apart!

	hmmm...if it's falling apart, it's the socialism, as you noted, 
not the freedom of choice. In fact, it's the LACK of freedom of choice 
>from  socialism...and that damage results from any kind of lack of freedom 
of choice.

>)> >Before America `tolerated' homosexualism it was a far more 
>)> >compassionate and tolerant society. 
>) 
>)> Was that when preachers used to preach segregation, where there were
>)> black and white water-fountians, where gays were sent to mental
>)> hospitals and tortured, where women were sterilized, where blacks were
>)> kept out of votin
>)> g due to poll taxes, where lynchings of african americans were common
>)> and ignored by the `faithfull'???

>)There have been many injustices perpetrated in the past, most of which we
>)shall not address in this posting. Sexual disfunctions are some of the most
>)difficult and often most misunderstood problems. Homosexuality is a riddle,
>)but based on experience it is definately something we in good conscience,
>)cannot accept as either normal or morally correct.

	I would say that any obsessing on sex would be sexual 
dysfunction. Both obsessing with being homosexual, and obsessing with 
being heterosexual.
	If he were obsessing with coffee drinking, and demanding special 
rights, and let's say you prefer tea, would your obsessing on tea and 
opposing all coffee drinking be any healthier than his?
	Imagine that someone comes along and pits him against you, 
telling him he needs special treatment as a coffee drinker. Do you 
reinforce this by trying to attack his coffee drinking, as a defense, or 
do you point out that the whole issue is bullshit?

>)> >Notice how violence is on the "increase," as sexual `licence' impacts
>)> >on the nation.
>) 
>)> You ignore the impact of the Drug War, which creates underground
>)> markets and violence all over the Earth associated with them.

>)Again, drug abuse is the symptom, not the cause.

	Yes, drug abuse is a symptom of the drug war. Note that the drug 
abuse problem started -after- the first heavy enforcement of the drug 
prohibition in the early sixties, but -before- the heavy separatist 
movement among the fake homosexual leaders. Cause and effect.

>)> You ignore the Violence that you preach in denying people their right
>)> to be free of Religious Laws - which Initiate Violence.

>)Violence is neutral, it's all a matter of who's using it. The `freedom'
>)which some seek is the same freedom a dog has to run in the street. This,
>)for human beings is not freedom at all, but licence and the destruction
>)of human dignity. Those who seek to destroy society must be restrained.

	The idea that there are special classes of violence is part of 
the socialist class warfare tactic. It lets them use violence and claim 
to be less evil, and lets them demonize the kinds of violence they want 
to focus upon...

	For example: There is far more violence against men than women. 
Some socialist/Liberal the other day mentioned that there was violence 
against a woman every n seconds...yet didn't mention that there was 
violence against a man THREE times in that same period. Their target here 
is the women, pitting them against men and guarentying their political 
support...

>)> >The one thing which was noticable in America during the last world
>)> >war, was its realtively high sexual mores, contrary to Berlin, which
>)> >Hitler himself called, "the whore of Babylon."
>) 
>)> As if Hitler was moral!!!

>)Hitler as evil as he was, was a genius and a very observant and 
>)in many ways, an intuitive person. He was also a master polititian, 
>)although to me, this even today, is a dubious honor.

	Yeah, he was a genius at pitting people against each other, and 
he needed people like you as much as people like your opponant. Think of 
these two quotes:

"The wealthy, priveledged race..." Hitler, about Jews
"The wealthy, priveledged race..." Clinton, about Whites

	It takes both sides to make this war work. Both of you are being 
sucked into the socialist class hate trap.

>)> >America became great because she rejected homosexuality and sexual 
>)> >promiscuity in general. Today, western society is FAILING, largely 
>)> >because of its acceptance of sexual deviance and infidelity.
>) 
>)> Failing to `love thy neighbor' because of Hate and prejudice like
>)> yours.

>)In loving our children and our neighbors mustn't we be willing to
>)say "no," when when it's required?

	What? America became great because of WHAT? Oh, it wasn't the 
freedom of choice, eh? Nothing to do with the free market systems which 
made us grow from last place to first place over the course of a mere 
century. It was sexual repression, which gave us enough energy in the 
form of frustration and tension to allow us to be more productive! 
	Even if we'd been socialist, we'd have been the same success, as 
long as we didn't screw to much...

>)> >	"Sexual licence leads to VIOLENCE & BRUTALITY.
>)> >	Those held in a state of sexual bandage, can do little
>)> >	towards the freedom and welfare of others, to the contrary,
>)> >	they will usurp the freedom of others."
>) 
>)> So, your answer for homosexuality, drug use, prostitution...
>)> ...is NOT to usurp the freedom of others????

>)This depends on what you call `freedom.' If by `freedom' you mean
>)the `licence' to destroy human dignity and commit a fraud against the
>)whole of the society you live in, shouldn't this person's freedom be
>)challenged? We restrict the freedom of many people in our society, for
>)instance there's those drug pushers you're worried about. Then there's
>)child molesters and rapists. Don't we restrict their freedom? Don't all
>)those who promote sexual debauchery and a breakdown of civilized human
>)behavior deserve similar treatment? Should anyone be permited to place 
>)a stumbling block before the blind? Are we not our brother's keeper?

	Human dignity? Are you talking about outlawing slapstick comedy? 

	The most terrible violation of human dignity is the prohibition 
of personal choice.

	You're Christian, right? Jesus didn't try to force anyone to do 
anything. He never advocated the State imposing -anything-. He -advised- 
people, and then left them with the dignity to listen or to make a 
mistake instead.

--
Secrets of the Sentient
Did You Know:
Black households making more than $35K a year grew from 2.6 million people in
1979 to 3.9 million people in 1989.


From macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU Tue Jan  2 16:32:32 PST 1996
Article: 39270 of alt.society.civil-liberty
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!seds!macadamia
From: macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU (Warren Ockrassa)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Followup-To: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Date: 2 Jan 1996 18:52:31 GMT
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Oy, how many times is the same argument going to be presented in the same 
fashion, bringing up the same tired and invalid points...?

[snip]

: For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
: many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
: thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
: they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
: They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
: meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
: direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.

I agree wholeheartedly -- if one has children, hopefully one would be 
moved to cherish, protect and provide for them to the best of one's ability.

: So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
: not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very
: valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
: which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
: been committed.  Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.

Let's do this one point at a time, shall we?

1. Homosexuals "seduce" no one. There is no "recruitment" office. There 
is no "agenda".

2. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle". It is simply a desire to love and 
be loved by those of one's own gender.

3. Homosexuality does promote life by your definition (above) -- it seeks 
to cherish, to love, to nurture, just as much as heterosexuality does. 
The biggest difference between you and me is that you're attracted to the 
other gender, and I am not.

4. Murder has been committed? You are seriously equating homosexuality 
with murder? Oh, please, get real -- Making love is not the same as 
putting a bullet through a head. And if you're calling it murder in a 
genetic sense you are implying that we're driven entirely by a genetic 
urge to reproduce -- which implies that it's genetics that controls 
behavior -- which of course implies that homosexuality is genetic rather 
than a choice. Oops! You've just let me use your view to find 
homosexuality to be natural! Well, I guess that's okay, since it is anyway.

: Those who promote homosexuality as being on a par with heterosexuality
: are in fact denying parents the right to concern themselves with this 
: abstract notion of promoting life itself. That is, the gay rights 
: advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
: system upon our society.  And in many people's opinions, that belief
: system is built upon hatred - a rejection of the fundumental love of
: life which is essential to a happy and meaningful life.

If there are people who think homosexuality is rooted in hatred they have 
no idea whatsoever what it is to be homosexual. When I say I identify as 
homosexual, what I am really saying is that I am more erotically and 
emotionally attracted to men, *not* that I hate women, and *not* that I 
hate life.

You use the concept of promoting life in the abstract -- well, that would 
mean everything *but* the literal reproduction of life, yes? And it seems 
to me that homosexuals contribute as much to the *abstract* promotion of 
life (proportionally) as heterosexuals do.

Gay rights activists can sometimes be around the bend a bit, but I think 
overall that it's not a new belief system that's sought by them -- I 
think it's a slight expansion of the one we currently have. I don't want 
to chase after your sons; I don't want to mount every man I see; I don't 
want the whole world to be queer. I just want to get the respect I feel I 
deserve as an adult and mature human -- the same respect I give in 
automatic measure to any other adult and mature humans I meet. I don't 
pry into your private life, and I'll thank you not to pry into mine.

: The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,
: do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
: They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
: to play.  They can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
: to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
: lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  

Oh, yes, it's incredibly seductive to be called faggot and queer and homo 
and fairy and c*cksucker, to have the holy hell beaten out of you, to be 
unable to show your love for your mate in public, to be unable to marry 
in any of the 50 United States, to be bombed, burned, shot, knifed and 
murdered, and to have to defend oneself against beliefs such as yours. 
Gosh, what a hedonistic "enjoyment" of life I'm getting out of this. What 
a lot of flashy clothes and fancy toys I have living on a single income 
without the benefit of tax write-offs I can get from marriage. (The idea 
that we can afford more luxuries, BTW, is a prejudicial and inaccurate 
one.) Yes, golly, I never have to worry about being "burdened" with kids 
(is that how you really see kids? As a burden...?) -- unless, of course, 
I decide to foster or adopt someday.

: So it is neither suprising nor unreasonable that parents should support 
: laws which tend to reduce the chances that their children will be seduced
: by the homosexual lifestyle.  Parents do have a legitimate interest in
: protecting their children from the homosexual world view.

Only naive (to use your term) parents. Intelligent and caring parents 
will know better. I sure hope none of your kids ever figures out he's gay 
-- knowing how you feel about it, he might just be motivated to kill 
himself rather than be exposed to your obvious unreasoning fears.

              Warren, That Nut, macadamia@seds.lpl.arizona.edu, 
    www.seds.org/~macadamia, PGP block by finger, fanatical Linux convert

                  "He was dense as lead and half as bright."


From fj@spdcc.com Tue Jan  2 16:32:33 PST 1996
Article: 39273 of alt.society.civil-liberty
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsie.dmc.com!spdcc!fj
From: fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!)
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Message-ID: 
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
References: <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il> <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:15:15 GMT
Lines: 110
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.society.conservatism:24403 alt.society.civil-liberty:39273 alt.sex.pedophilia:13000 alt.sex.homosexual:9475 alt.sex.advocacy:636 alt.revisionism:18514 alt.religion.sexuality:7651 alt.politics.usa.misc:48500 alt.politics.sex:7731 alt.politics.homosexuality:80160 alt.christnet:41404

In article <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>,
david petry  wrote:
>It's pretty obvious in what ways homosexuality does great harm, but in
>political battles, the obvious is often ignored.

`Political'? You are talking about my life here.

>For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
>many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
>thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
>they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
>They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
>meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
>direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.
>
>So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does

Lie. I was never seduced. Show us some facts and some data where it is
shown that same-sex attractions are a learned trait, or get the hell
out of alt.politics.homosexuality. Facts, we want FACTS here.

>not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very

Lie. Homosexuality is not in conflict with promoting healthy living
environments where people can be who they want to be with great respect
for each-other - in fact, damning people to a life without love because
other people think their love is icky is not exactly life-affirming.

Lie. Many same-sex couples raise families of their own and work hard to
provide good environemnt for their children and/or their other kin.

>valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
>which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
>been committed.  Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.

Sophistry. Making an argument based on un-born un-conceived fetuses makes
no sense, because nobody can say anything about them, or because the
whole reasoning about the murder can be extended to every fetus
conceivably possible to be born to every woman. If you are saying that
same-sex couples commit murder because they don't procreate, we can
extend this to saying that women who are not prenially creating new
babies are murderers as well.

Lie. In many cases, having a homosexual uncle or aunt menas that the
nephew/niece in question gets more attention and better survival rates, 
resulting, in fact, in promotion of the family-genes. This has been
documented in wolves.

Idiocy. Human life isn't just about shooting babies onto the world anymore,
there already are too many people. Human life is not a race for survival
of the fittest genes anymore, we have compassion, remember? That is why
we don't kill people off with various birth-defects. 

Hatred. As many parents of adopted and step-children can tell you, raising
a family in which not all people come from the genetic stock of the parents
is not a life-damning thing - it is very loving and shows respect for what
truly counts in human relationships. For the clue-impaired, that is not
proimotion of your own genes above everything.

Lie. Many same-sex couples want and do have children.

>abstract notion of promoting life itself. That is, the gay rights 
>advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
>system upon our society.

One that advocates respect and tolerance for each individual's choices
on how to pursue happiness, as long as it is done consentually. Sounds
a hell of a lot better to me than having to live under the yoke of a
system of values defined by lies and idiocy.

>The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,

Lie. Many homosexual couples want and have children.

>do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
>They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
>to play. 

Hate by omission. Notice how willfully infertile mixed-sex couples don't
get these lies attributes to them.

Lie. There are no facts to prove that same-sex couples have, on
averadge, a higher disposable income than mixed-sex couples. A study
was done by a marketing firm called "Overlooked Opinions", but that was
a very self-selecting and flawed study, from which no credible evidence
can be gathered, as every sociologist can tell you when they see the
set-up for that study.

Facts, we want FACTS here.

The>y can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
>to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
>lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  

I am continually amazed at how weak most heterosexuals deem sexual
orientation to be - do you people really think that a sexual
orientation is so weak that you can be seduced into one? If so,
consider this: almost homosexuals I know, which is very many, at one
point in their lives wished they were heterosexual.  Many went through
considerable anguish, grief, and therapy to `make' themselves
heterosexual. It never worked. One would think that if sexual
orientation was so easily impressed on someone, these highly motivated
individuals would be able to have the sexual orientation they wanted to
have. They didn't.

I really, really wish hets would do some proper and clear thinking
before they start spouting off about something they clearly know nothing
about. This whole article I am reacting to is so ill-informed, it is
ludicrous.
							FJ!!


From macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU Tue Jan  2 16:37:39 PST 1996
Article: 18507 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!news.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!seds!macadamia
From: macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU (Warren Ockrassa)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Followup-To: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Date: 2 Jan 1996 18:52:31 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona SEDS
Lines: 106
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References: <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il> <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: seds.lpl.arizona.edu
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.society.conservatism:24390 alt.society.civil-liberty:39270 alt.sex.pedophilia:12999 alt.sex.homosexual:9473 alt.sex.advocacy:634 alt.revisionism:18507 alt.religion.sexuality:7648 alt.politics.usa.misc:48491 alt.politics.sex:7729 alt.politics.homosexuality:80153 alt.christnet:41397

Oy, how many times is the same argument going to be presented in the same 
fashion, bringing up the same tired and invalid points...?

[snip]

: For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
: many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
: thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
: they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
: They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
: meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
: direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.

I agree wholeheartedly -- if one has children, hopefully one would be 
moved to cherish, protect and provide for them to the best of one's ability.

: So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
: not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very
: valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
: which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
: been committed.  Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.

Let's do this one point at a time, shall we?

1. Homosexuals "seduce" no one. There is no "recruitment" office. There 
is no "agenda".

2. Homosexuality is not a "lifestyle". It is simply a desire to love and 
be loved by those of one's own gender.

3. Homosexuality does promote life by your definition (above) -- it seeks 
to cherish, to love, to nurture, just as much as heterosexuality does. 
The biggest difference between you and me is that you're attracted to the 
other gender, and I am not.

4. Murder has been committed? You are seriously equating homosexuality 
with murder? Oh, please, get real -- Making love is not the same as 
putting a bullet through a head. And if you're calling it murder in a 
genetic sense you are implying that we're driven entirely by a genetic 
urge to reproduce -- which implies that it's genetics that controls 
behavior -- which of course implies that homosexuality is genetic rather 
than a choice. Oops! You've just let me use your view to find 
homosexuality to be natural! Well, I guess that's okay, since it is anyway.

: Those who promote homosexuality as being on a par with heterosexuality
: are in fact denying parents the right to concern themselves with this 
: abstract notion of promoting life itself. That is, the gay rights 
: advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
: system upon our society.  And in many people's opinions, that belief
: system is built upon hatred - a rejection of the fundumental love of
: life which is essential to a happy and meaningful life.

If there are people who think homosexuality is rooted in hatred they have 
no idea whatsoever what it is to be homosexual. When I say I identify as 
homosexual, what I am really saying is that I am more erotically and 
emotionally attracted to men, *not* that I hate women, and *not* that I 
hate life.

You use the concept of promoting life in the abstract -- well, that would 
mean everything *but* the literal reproduction of life, yes? And it seems 
to me that homosexuals contribute as much to the *abstract* promotion of 
life (proportionally) as heterosexuals do.

Gay rights activists can sometimes be around the bend a bit, but I think 
overall that it's not a new belief system that's sought by them -- I 
think it's a slight expansion of the one we currently have. I don't want 
to chase after your sons; I don't want to mount every man I see; I don't 
want the whole world to be queer. I just want to get the respect I feel I 
deserve as an adult and mature human -- the same respect I give in 
automatic measure to any other adult and mature humans I meet. I don't 
pry into your private life, and I'll thank you not to pry into mine.

: The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,
: do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
: They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
: to play.  They can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
: to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
: lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  

Oh, yes, it's incredibly seductive to be called faggot and queer and homo 
and fairy and c*cksucker, to have the holy hell beaten out of you, to be 
unable to show your love for your mate in public, to be unable to marry 
in any of the 50 United States, to be bombed, burned, shot, knifed and 
murdered, and to have to defend oneself against beliefs such as yours. 
Gosh, what a hedonistic "enjoyment" of life I'm getting out of this. What 
a lot of flashy clothes and fancy toys I have living on a single income 
without the benefit of tax write-offs I can get from marriage. (The idea 
that we can afford more luxuries, BTW, is a prejudicial and inaccurate 
one.) Yes, golly, I never have to worry about being "burdened" with kids 
(is that how you really see kids? As a burden...?) -- unless, of course, 
I decide to foster or adopt someday.

: So it is neither suprising nor unreasonable that parents should support 
: laws which tend to reduce the chances that their children will be seduced
: by the homosexual lifestyle.  Parents do have a legitimate interest in
: protecting their children from the homosexual world view.

Only naive (to use your term) parents. Intelligent and caring parents 
will know better. I sure hope none of your kids ever figures out he's gay 
-- knowing how you feel about it, he might just be motivated to kill 
himself rather than be exposed to your obvious unreasoning fears.

              Warren, That Nut, macadamia@seds.lpl.arizona.edu, 
    www.seds.org/~macadamia, PGP block by finger, fanatical Linux convert

                  "He was dense as lead and half as bright."


From fj@spdcc.com Tue Jan  2 16:37:42 PST 1996
Article: 18514 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!newsie.dmc.com!spdcc!fj
From: fj@spdcc.com (FJ!!)
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Message-ID: 
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
References: <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il> <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:15:15 GMT
Lines: 110
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.society.conservatism:24403 alt.society.civil-liberty:39273 alt.sex.pedophilia:13000 alt.sex.homosexual:9475 alt.sex.advocacy:636 alt.revisionism:18514 alt.religion.sexuality:7651 alt.politics.usa.misc:48500 alt.politics.sex:7731 alt.politics.homosexuality:80160 alt.christnet:41404

In article <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>,
david petry  wrote:
>It's pretty obvious in what ways homosexuality does great harm, but in
>political battles, the obvious is often ignored.

`Political'? You are talking about my life here.

>For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
>many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
>thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
>they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
>They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
>meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
>direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.
>
>So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does

Lie. I was never seduced. Show us some facts and some data where it is
shown that same-sex attractions are a learned trait, or get the hell
out of alt.politics.homosexuality. Facts, we want FACTS here.

>not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very

Lie. Homosexuality is not in conflict with promoting healthy living
environments where people can be who they want to be with great respect
for each-other - in fact, damning people to a life without love because
other people think their love is icky is not exactly life-affirming.

Lie. Many same-sex couples raise families of their own and work hard to
provide good environemnt for their children and/or their other kin.

>valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
>which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
>been committed.  Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.

Sophistry. Making an argument based on un-born un-conceived fetuses makes
no sense, because nobody can say anything about them, or because the
whole reasoning about the murder can be extended to every fetus
conceivably possible to be born to every woman. If you are saying that
same-sex couples commit murder because they don't procreate, we can
extend this to saying that women who are not prenially creating new
babies are murderers as well.

Lie. In many cases, having a homosexual uncle or aunt menas that the
nephew/niece in question gets more attention and better survival rates, 
resulting, in fact, in promotion of the family-genes. This has been
documented in wolves.

Idiocy. Human life isn't just about shooting babies onto the world anymore,
there already are too many people. Human life is not a race for survival
of the fittest genes anymore, we have compassion, remember? That is why
we don't kill people off with various birth-defects. 

Hatred. As many parents of adopted and step-children can tell you, raising
a family in which not all people come from the genetic stock of the parents
is not a life-damning thing - it is very loving and shows respect for what
truly counts in human relationships. For the clue-impaired, that is not
proimotion of your own genes above everything.

Lie. Many same-sex couples want and do have children.

>abstract notion of promoting life itself. That is, the gay rights 
>advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
>system upon our society.

One that advocates respect and tolerance for each individual's choices
on how to pursue happiness, as long as it is done consentually. Sounds
a hell of a lot better to me than having to live under the yoke of a
system of values defined by lies and idiocy.

>The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,

Lie. Many homosexual couples want and have children.

>do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
>They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
>to play. 

Hate by omission. Notice how willfully infertile mixed-sex couples don't
get these lies attributes to them.

Lie. There are no facts to prove that same-sex couples have, on
averadge, a higher disposable income than mixed-sex couples. A study
was done by a marketing firm called "Overlooked Opinions", but that was
a very self-selecting and flawed study, from which no credible evidence
can be gathered, as every sociologist can tell you when they see the
set-up for that study.

Facts, we want FACTS here.

The>y can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
>to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
>lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  

I am continually amazed at how weak most heterosexuals deem sexual
orientation to be - do you people really think that a sexual
orientation is so weak that you can be seduced into one? If so,
consider this: almost homosexuals I know, which is very many, at one
point in their lives wished they were heterosexual.  Many went through
considerable anguish, grief, and therapy to `make' themselves
heterosexual. It never worked. One would think that if sexual
orientation was so easily impressed on someone, these highly motivated
individuals would be able to have the sexual orientation they wanted to
have. They didn't.

I really, really wish hets would do some proper and clear thinking
before they start spouting off about something they clearly know nothing
about. This whole article I am reacting to is so ill-informed, it is
ludicrous.
							FJ!!


From thanatos@cyberhighway.net Tue Jan  2 16:37:45 PST 1996
Article: 18529 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!yama.mcc.ac.uk!warwick!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cyberhighway.net!usenet
From: Neal Feldman 
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 12:09:40 -0800
Organization: CyberHighway Internet Services
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <30E99104.5EF3@cyberhighway.net>
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:
> 
> Apulieus wrote,
> 
> > The comparison is not sexual 'behavior' but sexual orientation. 
Didn't
> > your big list of rabbi teachers include any science in your 
education?
> 
> You know Apuleius, the only thing I can think of, is that your own
> life is so miserable, you have to run everyone else down. Pity.

Ya know, Kevin... I was kinda thinking the same thing about YOU.

Seems to me that is what you are doing... and even worse you do it to 
those you know nothing about... sort of like ranting against left 
handed people!

-- 
Neal Feldman    "Fight Fascism!"
Salem, Oregon                   "Defeat the Religious Reich!"
thanatos@cyberhighway.net


From gs314995@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Tue Jan  2 18:14:39 PST 1996
Article: 18550 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
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From: George Byron Steele 
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA) 
In-Reply-To: <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com> 
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Question:
If a straight person choses not to have children or cannot, or like 
myself (on the advice of St Paul), is chaste does that person harm society?

God bless,
	Geordi.

G.B. Steele, Jr.
P.O.Box 744
Lancaster, Oh., 43130
gs314995@oak.cats.ohiou.edu


On 2 Jan 1996, david petry wrote:

> In <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> james9@aol.com (James9) writes:
> 
> >Kevin, I've watched your messages for a couple of months now, and don't
> >seem to recall a time when you offered a reasonable explanation as to the
> >"harm" caused by homosexuality.
> 
> 
> Let me give it a shot.
> 
> It's pretty obvious in what ways homosexuality does great harm, but in
> political battles, the obvious is often ignored.
> 
> For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
> many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
> thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
> they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
> They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
> meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
> direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.
> 
> So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
> not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very
> valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
> which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
> been committed.  Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.
> 
> Those who promote homosexuality as being on a par with heterosexuality
> are in fact denying parents the right to concern themselves with this 
> abstract notion of promoting life itself. That is, the gay rights 
> advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
> system upon our society.  And in many people's opinions, that belief
> system is built upon hatred - a rejection of the fundumental love of
> life which is essential to a happy and meaningful life.
> 
> The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,
> do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
> They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
> to play.  They can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
> to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
> lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  
> 
> So it is neither suprising nor unreasonable that parents should support 
> laws which tend to reduce the chances that their children will be seduced
> by the homosexual lifestyle.  Parents do have a legitimate interest in
> protecting their children from the homosexual world view.
> 
> 
> 
> 


From dk@crl.com Wed Jan  3 00:01:27 PST 1996
Article: 48545 of alt.religion.christian
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From: dk@crl.com (David A. Kaye)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.religion,alt.recovery.addiction.sexual,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media
Subject: Re: *** THE PINK SWASTIKA, Table of Contents ***
Followup-To: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.religion,alt.recovery.addiction.sexual,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media
Date: 2 Jan 1996 13:00:57 -0800
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote the quoted material below:

" A Note to the Reader
" Introduction:   Scott Lively

Just a reminder that Scott Lively has no training as an anthropologist and
has no training as a researcher.  He is 2nd-in-command of the Oregon
Citizens Alliance, an Oregon hate group.  His book is a fundraising effort
for the OCA.  Interesting side note:  He quickly lowered his OCA profile
after a TV cameraman at KOIN-TV asked him if the rumors were true that he
is gay. 

--
(c) 1996 
David Kaye                                                               



From williamh@ix.netcom.com Wed Jan  3 08:42:45 PST 1996
Article: 18292 of alt.activism
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From: williamh@ix.netcom.com(William House )
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.homosexual,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.british,alt.org.promisekeepers,alt.news-media,alt.journalism.gay-press,alt.journalism.freelance,alt.journalism,alt.feminism,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: *** THE PINK SWASTIKA: Table of Contents ***
Date: 3 Jan 1996 08:08:30 GMT
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  Kevin, in his book, does to homosexuals by stereotyping, 

  what Nazis did to the Jews, homosexuals, africans, gypsies, the      
  handicaped, pow's, jehova witnesses, leftists, artists, and drug
  users:

    18 Million people - Jews, Africans, Homosexuals, Gypsies,
the handicaped, POW's, Jehova Witnesses, leftists, Artists, Drug
Users - had been locked up in some 520 concentration camps and sub-
camps across Europe, according to generally accepted estmates used
to teach German school children about Nazi Crimes.

     11 million, about half of them Jews gassed in extermination
camps, never saw the outside world again.

     To presume from a person's status that he or she will commit
undesirable acts is an extreme measure....Hitler taught the world
what could happen when the Government began to target people not for
what they had done but because of their status.

Those thought to be a threat to the Fatherland were taken prisoner
 and placed  in concentration  camps.  These  prisoners were from
 many different social and cultural backgrounds. To distinguish
 between the prisoners,  the Nazis used a system  of color
 coded cloth badges.  Jews  were  given yellow stars;
 Half-Jews were given yellow triangles; Feminists
 were  given  black  triangles;  Gypsies were
 given brown; and Gay men, pink.  The green
 triangle was given to `common criminals'
 or  those  who  had been convicted of
 minor crimes,  including  drug law
 violators.  At the time of Nazi
 rule, a  very  stringent set
 of anti-drug laws was in
 effect -- laws that
 were very similar
 to those used
 now in the
 U.S.
  /
 . 





From eeaaee@mixcom.com Wed Jan  3 08:42:49 PST 1996
Article: 18298 of alt.activism
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From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Smallpox: the Rush Limbaugh effect.
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 09:53:13 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
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rawiley@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (R. Wiley) wrote to  and
alt.politics.homosexuality:

»»nicatt@oasis.novia.net (Nicatt) writes:
»»>Not to mention that smallpox has NOT been eliminated.
»»>Nicatt
»»In the United States and the rest of the industrialized
»»world, smallpox *HAS* been eliminated.  In the past 20
»»years more people have died from the smallpox vaccine
»»than from smallpox in the USA.

The elimination goes well beyond the industrialized world. As far as
scientists know, it has been eliminated from everyplace in the world
except the laboratories in the US and Russia that still hold samples
of the virus.

Where has all this inflated rumor been coming from, anyway? Is Rush
Limbaugh trying to perk up his sagging ratings with a smallpox scare?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Pink Swastika may be ordered from

        1 - 800 - 828 - 2290

  Interviews & Speaking Engagements

        1 - 503 - 463 - 8095

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



From eeaaee@mixcom.com Wed Jan  3 08:42:49 PST 1996
Article: 18299 of alt.activism
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From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Heterosexual men try to give AIDS to women
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 09:53:32 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
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Message-ID: <4cdjoh$b4v@homer.alpha.net>
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nicatt@oasis.novia.net (Nicatt) wrote to
alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt..activism,alt..politics..homosexuality
and alt.politics.homosexuality:

»»No that is not true.  Perhaps in your country.  Here in the US, there 
»»have been numerous cases of purposeful spreading of HIV.  Supposedly
»»the "I got it and I am going to punish you" type acts and increased
»»promiscuity in the homosexual community of admitted carriers.

You don't have all your facts "straight."

The cases we've heard in the news of people purposely trying to spread
the virus were heterosexual men giving trying to give it to women.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Pink Swastika may be ordered from

        1 - 800 - 828 - 2290

  Interviews & Speaking Engagements

        1 - 503 - 463 - 8095

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



From eeaaee@mixcom.com Wed Jan  3 08:42:59 PST 1996
Article: 18345 of alt.activism
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From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: the Pink Cross Post
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 10:00:10 GMT
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote to  and alt.politics.homosexuality:

I have noted a growing sense of irritation from some newsgroups
who consider this thread to be spammed.

I'm not the one who added them to the list.

They should contact the poster in Jerusalem if they don't like the
fact that he is spamming them.

I am merely replying to his messages.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Pink Swastika may be ordered from

        1 - 800 - 828 - 2290

  Interviews & Speaking Engagements

        1 - 503 - 463 - 8095

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



From williamh@ix.netcom.com Wed Jan  3 08:47:58 PST 1996
Article: 69708 of alt.politics.correct
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: williamh@ix.netcom.com(William House )
Newsgroups: alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.homosexual,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.bush,alt.politics.british,alt.org.promisekeepers,alt.news-media,alt.journalism.gay-press,alt.journalism.freelance,alt.journalism,alt.feminism,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: *** THE PINK SWASTIKA: Table of Contents ***
Date: 3 Jan 1996 08:08:30 GMT
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  Kevin, in his book, does to homosexuals by stereotyping, 

  what Nazis did to the Jews, homosexuals, africans, gypsies, the      
  handicaped, pow's, jehova witnesses, leftists, artists, and drug
  users:

    18 Million people - Jews, Africans, Homosexuals, Gypsies,
the handicaped, POW's, Jehova Witnesses, leftists, Artists, Drug
Users - had been locked up in some 520 concentration camps and sub-
camps across Europe, according to generally accepted estmates used
to teach German school children about Nazi Crimes.

     11 million, about half of them Jews gassed in extermination
camps, never saw the outside world again.

     To presume from a person's status that he or she will commit
undesirable acts is an extreme measure....Hitler taught the world
what could happen when the Government began to target people not for
what they had done but because of their status.

Those thought to be a threat to the Fatherland were taken prisoner
 and placed  in concentration  camps.  These  prisoners were from
 many different social and cultural backgrounds. To distinguish
 between the prisoners,  the Nazis used a system  of color
 coded cloth badges.  Jews  were  given yellow stars;
 Half-Jews were given yellow triangles; Feminists
 were  given  black  triangles;  Gypsies were
 given brown; and Gay men, pink.  The green
 triangle was given to `common criminals'
 or  those  who  had been convicted of
 minor crimes,  including  drug law
 violators.  At the time of Nazi
 rule, a  very  stringent set
 of anti-drug laws was in
 effect -- laws that
 were very similar
 to those used
 now in the
 U.S.
  /
 . 





From eeaaee@mixcom.com Wed Jan  3 08:48:07 PST 1996
Article: 69737 of alt.politics.correct
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.perot,alt.politics.usa.republican
Subject: Re: NEA declare October Gay/Lesbian History Month
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 09:57:50 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4cdk0j$b4v@homer.alpha.net>
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black1lion@aol.com (Black1Lion) wrote to  and
alt.politics.homosexuality:

»»I am deeply disappointed. Even though this site is dedicated to the
»»degradation of  the month of October as Sodomite and Radical Feminist
»»History Month ( I wonder if that would be grounds for a class-action
»»lawsuit by people born in that month ), no one seems to actually have had
»»the temerity to suggest such a thing. Maybe you people have finally bought
»»a mirror.
»»Black Lion 

Well, I understand they're going to adjust these "history" months
according to the amount of history that actually exists for the group
involved.

For examplt, it's proposed that Black History month be changed to
February 29.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Pink Swastika may be ordered from

        1 - 800 - 828 - 2290

  Interviews & Speaking Engagements

        1 - 503 - 463 - 8095

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From james9@aol.com Wed Jan  3 08:55:01 PST 1996
Article: 48631 of alt.religion.christian
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From: james9@aol.com (James9)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.religion,alt.recovery.addiction.sexual,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media
Subject: Re: *** THE PINK SWASTIKA, Table of Contents ***
Date: 2 Jan 1996 23:11:07 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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> He quickly lowered his OCA profile after a TV cameraman at KOIN-TV asked
> him if the rumors were true that he is gay.

Interesting...it wouldn't be the first time that someone covered their
homosexual orientation with this kind of overt denial. 

James


From jld@lexis-nexis.com Wed Jan  3 10:10:36 PST 1996
Article: 18647 of alt.revisionism
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From: jld@lexis-nexis.com (Jay Douglas)
Newsgroups: alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: 3 Jan 1996 15:58:30 GMT
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Both homosexual and heterosexual people have the capacity to be helpful or hurtful, 
THAT is where the choice lies.  Ones sexuality does not give one a propensity towards either.


I know, I know, beating a dead horse and all that, but I could not let this post go by
without adding a few comments of my own....

 
In article <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>, petry@ix.netcom.com(david petry) writes:
|> In <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> james9@aol.com (James9) writes:
|> 
|> >Kevin, I've watched your messages for a couple of months now, and don't
|> >seem to recall a time when you offered a reasonable explanation as to the
|> >"harm" caused by homosexuality.
|> 
|> 
|> Let me give it a shot.
|> 
|> It's pretty obvious in what ways homosexuality does great harm, but in
|> political battles, the obvious is often ignored.

   I would have to argue that very little in this existence is "obvious".  I think this
word is over-used and should be stricken from the english language.

|> 
|> For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
|> many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
|> thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
|> they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
|> They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
|> meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
|> direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.
|>

     You are saying, then, that a female who is born sterile or through some
accident or menopause cannot conceive, no longer has any
direction in their lives??  I believe that, as humans, we have a little more to 
contribute than simply procreating.  Promoting life, I feel, does not mean
only "creating new life" but being an advocate for that life which exists already.

 
|> So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
|> not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very
|> valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
|> which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
|> been committed.  Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.
|> 

    It does not appear that you have had the opportunity to research the idea
of sexuality and its origins, complex though those origins may be.  I think that you would 
find that nobody seduces anyone into a particular sexuality because the concepts of 
sexual "behavior" (indeed, any behavior) and sexual "orientation" are not necessarily 
related.  I can only relate from my own experience which tells me that my sexual 
orientation is indeed an immutable trait.

|> Those who promote homosexuality as being on a par with heterosexuality
|> are in fact denying parents the right to concern themselves with this 
|> abstract notion of promoting life itself. That is, the gay rights 
|> advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
|> system upon our society.  And in many people's opinions, that belief
|> system is built upon hatred - a rejection of the fundumental love of
|> life which is essential to a happy and meaningful life.

   The reasoning here is faulty:  First off, there is no belief system to promote,
other than excepting people for who they are.  I did not choose my sexuality, any
more than anyone else has chosen theirs.  I was not the product of an over-bearing
mother or abdicating father.  (Thanks, Dr. Socarides (sp?), for this bit of drivel.)
Not that everyone has a "perfect" home life...  You seem to be indicating that
not having children equals a hatred for life....

Some of the most loving and respectful people I know, are my gay and lesbian friends. 

|> 
|> The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,
|> do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
|> They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
|> to play.  They can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
|> to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
|> lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children. 
	
     The means to have "flashier" toys .   Yes,
it is true that not having children of ones own frees up a great deal of income, but I
would have a hard time believing that there are no heterosexual people who do not have
children and, therefore, have more disposable income....Myself, I drive a modest,
mid-sized car and live in my apartment...and I'm just fine with that.

      Let me give this expression one more time:  sexuality  !=  lifestyle

     Not having children of one's own does not relinquish ANYONE from the responsibility
of caring for the next generation.  We are all teachers to those who wish to learn what
each of us, in particular, has to offer.  Especially to children.   We teach simply by
being observable to others.  Throughout my college years I worked in a summer-school
kindergarden class and am currently a volunteer with Big-Brothers and Sisters.  I contribute
in ways that I can.  Are you saying that, because I am gay, I have been trying to seduce
children to become gay???     


 
|> 
|> So it is neither suprising nor unreasonable that parents should support 
|> laws which tend to reduce the chances that their children will be seduced
|> by the homosexual lifestyle.  Parents do have a legitimate interest in
|> protecting their children from the homosexual world view.
|> 
|> 

  You need to rememeber that the points made here regarding lifestyle are completely
applicable to heterosexuals as well.  You appear to be operating from a fairly
myopic and fearful view of the world.  You have to look with better eyes than these...


-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Douglas		     When logic follows experience, it is likely
jay.douglas@lexis-nexis.com  to be valid.  When experience derives from logic,
                             it is bound to be self-deception:  delusional,
                             spurious, false.
                             . . .

                             It is wise to avoid militants of all plumage,
                             to trust only the fanatically unfanatic.
			        -- Frederick Franck

Peace is not an absence of war.  It is a virtue, a state of mind, 
a disposition for benvolence, confidence, justice.  -- Spinoza
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 


From bruceg@access1.digex.net Wed Jan  3 14:19:13 PST 1996
Article: 18662 of alt.revisionism
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From: bruceg@access1.digex.net (Bruce Garrett)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: 3 Jan 1996 13:37:05 -0500
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   petry@ix.netcom.com(david petry) fires one downrange...

>> Kevin, I've watched your messages for a couple of months now, and don't
>> seem to recall a time when you offered a reasonable explanation as to the
>> "harm" caused by homosexuality.

DP> Let me give it a shot.

	...in the back of the head.

DP> For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
DP> many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
DP> thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.

	This of course, the Sex Is For Procreation Only argument.  We ought 
to number these...

DP> So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
DP> not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very
DP> valuable has been destroyed.

	So.  Are homosexuals responsible when a heterosexual couple decides 
not to have children?   Would you say that childless heterosexual couples 
ought to be subject to the same persecutions for their "lifestyle" that 
homosexual couples are, since they are also not "promoting life"?

DP> The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next 
DP> generation, do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a 
DP> hedonistic sense.  They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, 
DP> and they have more time to play.

	I was just thinking to myself the other day as I put in my upteenth 
14 hour day posted either in front of my office computer screen or my home 
computer screen trying desperately to keep up with the changing environment 
I earn my living in, about all the free time I have.  Secular hedonist that 
I am, I was thinking the holidays are nice, because they give you time to 
catch up on your technical reading.  

	Last Christmas I enjoyed my second paid holiday in nearly fifteen 
years (the first was last Thanksgiving) in a hedonistic sense, playing 
Find The Landmines In The New Visual Basic Version (or, What The Hell 
Happened To Type Checking...), Is The Monitor Going Bad Or Is It The Video 
Card Or Is It That New Extension Cable -- Day Three, Do The Laundry, Vacuum 
The Floor, Re-Pot The Computer Desk Rhododendron, and Pay The End Of 
December Bills (thinking as I keyed them into Microsoft Money 95, that 
after spending that bundle of Extra Homosexual Income on Windows 95, Office 
Professional 95, and all the new development tools to go with them so I'd 
have an excuse to earn a living in 1996, I thought it rather nice of 
Microsoft to toss out Money 95 free of charge for a while...really...), 
noting all the while what a decadent life I lead.  I don't think I can 
stand any more decadence, frankly...

DP> So it is neither suprising nor unreasonable that parents should support 
DP> laws which tend to reduce the chances that their children will be 
DP> seduced by the homosexual lifestyle.

	Or the Catholic Priest lifestyle either, I take it?
	
	

-- 
 -Bruce Garrett       \     finger bruceg@access.digex.net
  Cockeysville, MD.   / \   Final:   Kinsey 6  Skinner 0


From msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu Wed Jan  3 15:48:54 PST 1996
Article: 18396 of alt.activism
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From: msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu (Michael Smith)
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Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: 3 Jan 1996 18:29:21 GMT
Organization: Loyola University Chicago
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:
: Mike,

: > In order for homosexuality to be considered a disease, there has to be 
: > POSITIVE IRREFUTABLE proof to back up such a consideration. In other 
: > words, the burden of proof lies with YOU, once again.

: I disagree, the burden of `proof' lies with you folks. After all,
: it's you who wants the whole nation to accept homosexuality as a normal
: and equally valid form of sexual expression alongside heterosexuality.

Quite the opposite: society has assumed for a long time that 
homosexuality is immoral and an invalid form of sexual expression. 

Let us turn the situation around for a second. There are those who 
believe that all Jews are in a conspiracy to kill Gentles, including 
Christians. Am I to believe these theories? Am I to believe these 
theories if most of society dislikes Jews? 

The fact is that neither the anti-Jewish theories going around nor the 
anti-gay theories you espouse have suffiencent backing to demonstrate 
that either group is engaged in a conspiracy. 

Now a point that is closer to home. Many Christians assume that Jews are 
immoral because they do not accept Christ. Society has accepted this as 
"fact" for thousands of years. Does the burden of proof lie with *you* 
that Jews are not inherently immoral, or with the *Christians* to 
demonstrate *their* case?

In both cases, the burden of proof lies with the accuser. In this case, 
the accuser is yourself, even if most of society is backing you up, and 
you *must* prove your case. Popularity of the proposition does not 
constitute proof.

: I am saying, and will continue to say, that in all areas, whether 
: historical, religious or scientific you have no legitimate basis upon
: which to substantiate your claims for acceptance other, than it being
: a personal `preference' or `orientation.'

Even if you are correct here, *which you are not*, there is no basis for 
you to claim that homosexuality is a disease *or* that the gay culture is 
directly responsible and culpable for the rise of Hitler. 

Even so, as stated, *you are incorrect* in your assertion. Historically 
homosexuality was considered normal in many cultures, not the least of 
which were Greece and Rome. The fact that Paul had to make up a word for 
homosexual prostitution in Greek should tell us something. More to the 
point, Michel Foucault gives a quite brilliant analysis of Greek 
philosophy and drama wrt homosexuality. Part of his analysis focuses on 
the philosophical problem of the time, the relationship between a 
free-born boy and a grown man, which at the time was considered part of 
the introduction of said boy to society at large. 

Scientifically speaking there are multiple articles published by the 
likes of Simon LeVay which detail very careful experiments to demonstrate 
that there is some link between sexual orientation and the size of a part 
of the brain known as the INAH-3, located near the hypothalamus (the part 
of the brain that controlls sexuality). Causality has not been 
established, but as it stands the jury is still out on whether 
homosexuality is "normal" for many persons or not. 

: What I am also saying is that homosexuals have a responsiblity to the
: rest of the community which they don't seem to care about, regardless of 
: the harm they are causing. 

Verbal masturbation. Please cut to the chase, will you?

: Can you prove to us that homosexuality is not 
: harmful, to both the individual and society? 

I have said this once and I shall say this again: the burden of proof 
lies with you. After all, you are the one trying to demonstrate a causal 
link between homosexuality and some detrimental effect on society, not I.

: I and millions of other
: Americans, given the opportunity, can prove that it is. 

Then please do so. You are more than welcome to try, as others have 
tried, so long as you recognize my right to attack your proof.

: Are you willing,
: and capable, of entering into a full, fair and open debate with those of 
: us who disagree with you?

I have been debating openly, fairly and fully with you for two months, 
Mr. Abrams. I've debated openly, fairly and fully with most of the 
anti-gay-rights crowd for in excess of five years. I cannot say the same 
for them, or for you, given the number of ad-hominems, empty statements, 
illogical statements and stupid assumptions that have gone back and forth 
thus far. Furthermore, you *know* I've been debating this point with you 
openly and honestly, and that I have been more than fair to you in public. 
Frankly I think your attempts to characterize my actions otherwise are at 
least disingenuous and at worst dishonest.

: Regards,

: Kevin E. Abrams

Blessed Be
Mike Smith

DISCLAIMER: My opinions do not necesarily, or even remotely, reflect those 
of Loyola University, Chicago


From ferrar@uiuc.edu Wed Jan  3 17:59:46 PST 1996
Article: 18682 of alt.revisionism
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From: ferrar@uiuc.edu (Greg Ferrar)
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Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 15:05:43 -0600
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An interesting article, and well worded.  I think, however, that there are
a lot of fallacies in your thinking, and your conclusion is way off. 
Here's a summary of the fallacies:

In article <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>, petry@ix.netcom.com(david
petry) wrote:
> For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
> many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
> thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
> they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
> They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
> meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
> direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.

YOU SAY: The purpose of life is to create life.

FALLACY: Actually you said "promote life," but your argument seems to be
only that creation of life by their children is critical to some people. 
If you really meant "promote life," then that's a reasonable aim, but
homosexuality does not interfere in it, or in the "love of life" in any
way clear to me.  So assuming you're talking about creating life, I think
this is no longer the purpose of life.  When there are 100 people on the
planet, maybe then that's the whole purpose.  But when the number of
people passes a few million, you have so many people that there's no
reason for them all to create life.  Creation of life becomes one of the
tasks of a society, but cannot and should not be the task of each
individual.  If every individual must create life, we end up with
population growth, which is a very bad thing past a certain point.  This
point was passed long ago (perhaps around 100 million), and any further
creation of life is intensely destructive to our species and our habitat. 
We should be trying to prevent creation of life, not to promote it. 
Further population growth is illogical.

(actually, I didn't point out a fallacy here; I just spouted my own
opinion.  However, I believe that statement "the purpose of life is to
create life" is fundamentally flawed.  I will attempt from now on to stick
to true identification of fallacies.)

> So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
> not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very
> valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
> which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
> been committed.  Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.

YOU SAY: homosexuals seduce children into their lifestyle.

FALLACY: That's unprovable.  Though it's possible to make a case that
homosexuality is a learned trait, it is equally possible to make a case
that it is genetic.  Most homosexuals feel it is genetic, though they
probably wouldn't know if it were learned.  In any case, even if it is a
learned trait, homosexuals simply do not try to convert children.  Having
felt the blade of prejudice first-hand, they generally feel no desire to
subject another person to their fate.  Homosexuals do not make passes at
children, and generally no not even tell children of their sexual
orientation.  Children may be affected by their genes, or they may be
affected by the culture at large, by they are not seduced by individuals.

YOU SAY: children who become homosexuals have abstractly died

FALLACY: You're basing this on your fundamental point that the purpose of
life is to create life.  I have shown that that is a very poor goal.

YOU IMPLY: homosexuals cannot have children

FALLACY: Homosexuals can mother and father children just like anyone
else.  If they truly want children (if, for instance, their true goal in
life is to create life), they will become parents.  Adoption is also an
alternative, though difficult due to societal wrongheadedness.

> Those who promote homosexuality as being on a par with heterosexuality
> are in fact denying parents the right to concern themselves with this 
> abstract notion of promoting life itself. That is, the gay rights 
> advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
> system upon our society.  And in many people's opinions, that belief
> system is built upon hatred - a rejection of the fundumental love of
> life which is essential to a happy and meaningful life.

YOU SAY: Gay rights activists are attempting to use the law to impose a
particular believe system upon our society.

NO FALLACY THERE.  But then, everyone does that all the time.  You might
even say that's the definition of "law."  This is not a bad thing. 
Anti-gay groups also would like to use the law to impose a particular
belief system.

YOU IMPLY: If homosexuality were legal, parents would not be able to
influence their child's morals with respect to homosexuality.

FALLACY: Parents will always be able to heavily influence their children's
morals.  Simple proximity is bound to create an influence.  (Opinion:
furthermore, parents should not be allowed to control their children's
access to information.  The child should know all his or her options, and
then with the parent's moral guidance can, can make informed decisions.)

YOU SAY: Homosexuals' belief system is build on hatred of life.

FALLACY: Again you confuse creation of life with love of life.  People can
have long, happy, fulfulling lives without having children.  People can
positively effect society over a lifetime without having children. 
Homosexuals love life as much as anyone.

> The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,
> do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
> They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
> to play.  They can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
> to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
> lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  

YOU IMPLY: Homosexuals do not care for the next generation; heterosexuals do.

FALLACY: Homosexuals can have children, and more importantly,
heterosexuals can have no children.  It is absurd to equate the value of a
person with the number of lived (s)he creates.  (Opinion: in fact, I would
say the more children a person has, the more destructive that person is to
society).

YOU SAY: Homosexuals hedonistically spend money.

FALLACY: Homosexuals are in all sorts of jobs, with all sorts of
salaries.  Many of them are barely scraping by.  You may be correct in the
broad sense; homosexuals probably have more spending money in general
(due, as you say, to lack of children), but that's not a negative thing. 
More spending money means more spending, and more spending stimulates the
economy.

YOU SAY: Homosexuals live in glamour.

FALLACY: They life the same as anyone else.  You know a lot of
homosexuals, and you don't even know they're homosexual.  You cannot in
general tell homosexuals by the glamour in their lifestyle, or by any
other outward signs.

YOU IMPLY: Not having children is evil and hateful

FALLACY: This is perhaps the worse of your errors.  There are so many
people out there who have not had children.  Some cannot.  Some chose not
to, for reasons of religion or convenience.  Some people don't like
children.  Only a small portion of those without children are
homosexuals.  To condemn broadly all those who have no children is to
condemn more heterosexuals than homosexuals.  (Opinion: furthermore, as I
suspect I've made clear, I roundly congratulate anyone who makes it
through life without getting seduced into the childbearing business.  Any
such person is a boon to society, as their life actually reduces our
catastrophically high population).


  -Greg Ferrar (ferrar@uiuc.edu)


From eeaaee@mixcom.com Wed Jan  3 17:59:49 PST 1996
Article: 18690 of alt.revisionism
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From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
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Subject: Kevin, your spam is causing heart attacks by the dozen.
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   Kevin, you're getting some of your Israeli friends and American
friends of Israel very upset.

   They, and alt.sex.pedophilia have been the only real complainers
about this. I guess that's where the high blood pressure is
concentrated.

   You started this by adding irrelevant israeli newsgroups to your
list when replying to us. (I assume you're not the one who spammed in
the pedophiles, are you?)

   I started out by trimming out those groups when replying to you but
you kept adding them back in.

   Not only that, but with time you added more israeli-orientated
groups to the list.

   I don't exist on this earth to trim your lists for you.

   Please trim before you spam. If you don't know how to trim your
newsgroups, ask your friendly mohel.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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From eeaaee@mixcom.com Wed Jan  3 17:59:50 PST 1996
Article: 18691 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet
Subject: Pedophiles not interested in homosexuality either !!!!!!!!!!! Is Kevin writing a new book?????
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 22:20:58 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4cevhv$1ck@homer.alpha.net>
References: <4c12ji$jqa@nntp3.news.primenet.com> <4c4kte$40p@news.netvision.net.il> <4c7meh$fgl@news.mixcom.com> <4ccnre$r43@altrade.nijmegen.inter.nl.net>
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Xanti@beta.cz (Xanti) wrote to  and alt.politics.homosexuality:


»»But could you please stop spamming in a.s.pedophilia? At the moment,
»»it is already crowded with the Raven shit, and these absurd
»»(anti)homosexual debates are of no interest of us.

I don't have the slightest idea how you got on the newsgroups list.

I've trimmed you out a few times.

You'll be interested to know that pedophilia and the various israel
newsgroups have been most irritated by these cross posts, while the
Christians and the Limbaughites haven't uttered a peep.

Does that tell us something?

At any rate, I don't know how you got to be included.

It appears that the poster from Jerusalem has been responsible for
adding in all the israel groups. That's where I first noticed them, at
any rate. I wouldn't be surprised if he also put in the pedophiles. He
writes propaganda books, you know, and he's probably watching you in
pedophilia so he can include your conversations in his next book.

If you look at the newsgroups, he also has book reviews included,
which I've just trimmed out of this response.


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From jphil@titan.tcn.net Wed Jan  3 23:34:14 PST 1996
Article: 18705 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!torn!uunet.ca!news.uunet.ca!neptune.tcn.net!usenet
From: jphil@titan.tcn.net (Phil Stracke)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 16:51:18 GMT
Organization: *.*
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Message-ID: <4ce1no$p13@neptune.tcn.net>
References: <4c12ji$jqa@nntp3.news.primenet.com> <4c4kte$40p@news.netvision.net.il> <4c5d51$olb@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>
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mkelly10@ix.netcom.com( wrote:


>>Can you prove that homosexualism is not predatory?

Homosexuals do not produce more human beings to further pollute and
consume the shrinking resources of our world. Homosexuals are making a
better world for your children.

>>Can you explain how homosexualism is equal to heterosexism?

All "*"isms are organized doctrines of bias and misinformation
intended to promote special interests, and concentrate power at the
expense of freedom and fairness. There is no significant difference
between homo or hetero SEXISM -- they are both equally disgusting. 

>>Can you tell us, on what basis did the APA remove homosexuality
>>from its Diognostics and Statistics manual?

Global warming/Air pollution winter, Ozone depletion, Environmental
pollution, Nuclear waste, Third world poverty and famine,
Unrestrained population growth, Accelerating endangerment and
extinction of animal species, due to breeding and expansion of human
settlements, Common sense and the fact it was no longer a saleable
treatment product..

>>And after you've answered these questions, then I'll have some
>>additional ones. Can you answer the above? Or are you just going to
>>express your pent-up emotions?

>Will I use it as you do? No, thank you.

>>Regards,
>>
>>Kevin E. Abrams

>Marie


----------------------------------------------------
Sadly, Democracy can become government of the hicks,
by the misinformed, and for the clever, greedy, few.
----------------------------------------------------



From vortex@in.net Wed Jan  3 23:34:18 PST 1996
Article: 18730 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!su3.in.net!news
From: vortex@in.net (Vortex)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 05:40:11 GMT
Organization: INTERNET Indiana
Lines: 142
Message-ID: <4cd4sp$ifb@su3.in.net>
References: <4c6at3$h66@crl13.crl.com> <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il>
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:



>> In article <4c4kte$40p@news.netvision.net.il>, 
>> kevin_e@netvision.net.il said:
> 
>> > Homofascists dominated the Nazi Party. 
>> > Can you prove they didn't?
> 
>> Don't need to.  The sexual orientation of one group of thugs isn't
>> relevant to the question of the morality of liberty, equality and
>> justice (to name three things to which you seem to be opposed).

>This is where you're wrong. I'm all for the liberation of man from
>emotional and spiritual bondage. I also believe in the principle of
>equal justice for all. (equality and justice are one not two)

>> > Can you prove that homosexuality is `innate'?
> 
>> Don't need to.  The "innateness," or lack thereof, of a particular
>> sexual orientation isn't relevant to the question either.

>Gay activists would not agree with you. They believe if homosexuality
>is presented to the public as being `innate,' this excuses them from 
>personal responsibility for the consequences of their conduct. The problem
>is, if homosexuality is found to be innate, then it should be able to be
>repaired physiologically, something which most gays would reject.

This last paragraph is so ludicrous I almost didn't know where to
begin. Kevin, you are confusing homosexuality, i.e. the state of being
homosexual, with unspecified homosexual conduct. These are two
separate issues, and I am shocked that someone who is so fervently
trying to pass himself off as credible would make such a blatant lapse
in reason and logic.  Gay activists such as myself believe that the
state of BEING homosexual is innate. I have been gay as long as I can
remember and don't recall choosing it on some menu. I don't know what
you mean by personal responsibility and conduct. Gays who violate the
law are _not_ excused by the gay community. I will put my conduct
against yours any day of the week.

As far as "repairing" homosexuals goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix
it. We get along just fine without anyone else's help, and the only
right we want are those which straight people already have. It's too
bad that your personal hatreds and insecurities conspire to rob us of
the same loving, caring and complete lives that you would enjoy. Do
you really think it's healthy for you to go around with all of this
ill will towards others? I think you need to be fixed, Kevin.

>> > Can you prove that homosexuality is a benefit to either the
>> > individual or society?

>> Don't need to.  No sexual orientation, nor any person who holds such
>> orientation, is under any obligation whatsoever to be "a benefit" to
>> anyone or anything.

>This pretty well describes the `gay' mind-set. "Don't need to" give a
>damn about anyone but themselves.

Hmmm...I don't see any of that "take care of your own life"
conservatism here, do I? Another blatant flaw, Kev, or are you
becoming liberal on us? I wasn't put here on this planet to make your
life or anyone else's life easier. But let me just relate something
personal to you which I don't often share:
 My mother died of cancer in 1985, at the age of 41. I cared for her
the last two years, as she began to be incapacitated. From her, I
inherited the task of taking care of my then-85 year old
great-grandmother, who my mother had been taking care of up to that
point. I stayed with her and cared for her over the next ten years,
while her own daughter (my wealthy, heterosexual, Christian,
conservative grandmother) lived in an air-conditioned high-rise in
Atlanta and visited her own mother once in those ten years. My
great-grandmother passed on this last March, just past her 95th
birthday, and I miss her terribly. You are a completely sick fuck to
make a statement such as the last I quoted from you. Who do you think
you are to run around making such self-satisfied pontifications? I
feel so sorry for you Kevin, because if I could come through the hard
times I have with my humanity intact, and you cannot, you must have
had one horrible past.

>> > Can you prove that homosexualism is not predatory?
> 
>> Don't need to.  The statement "homosexualism is predatory" is
>> semantically meaningless.

>"Don't need to, don't want to" do anything, right William?
> 
>> > Can you explain how homosexualism is equal to heterosexism?
> 
>> Don't need to.  The statement "homosexualism is equal to heterosexism"
>> is semantically meaningless.

>No semanitics here. How is homosexuality the same as heterosexuality?

They are both sexual orientations. 
 
>> > Can you tell us, on what basis did the APA remove homosexuality from
>> > its Diognostics and Statistics manual?
> 
>> Do't need to.  The institutional opinions of the American Psychiatric
>> Association, or the personal opinions of any of its members, are no
>> more relevant to the questions of "homosexualism" than are your own.

>This is not true. Homosexualists used the 1973 APA descision to remove
>homosexuality from its DSM as a political weapon to declare anyone who 
>disagreed with them pathological or homophobic. The descision was made 
>on the basis of a vote by a minority of the APA's voting membership. The 
>principle being that science is NOT democratic but evidential.

Being the poster boy for pathological and homophibic behavior, this
must have been quite a depressing time for you. 

>> > And after you've answered these questions, then I'll have some
>> > additional ones.
> 
>> I'm sure you will... I believe it was Winston Churchill who defined a
>> fanatic as "a man who can't change his mind and won't change the
>> subject."  Fortunately for the rest of us, Kevin, you're generally a
>> _fun_ fanatic to watch in action 'cause you're so terminally and
>> self-righteously looney...

>On the basis of evidence I could easily change my mind. Thus far, all
>we've seen from the `gay' camp is distortion, extortion and fraud. Gays
>are afraid of an open and fair debate of the issue with their opponents.
>The foundations of their claim are made of clay.

And so is your book. You only see what you want to see. The only thing
I am afraid of is that you and the rest of your ilk will never see
goodness in anything except your own narrow beliefs. You have my
_sincere_ sympathy.





  
  ######             
  ####                                    The Goddess is 
    ###      vortex@in.net                     here,and She 
    ##                                             is organizing.
    #



From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 00:29:57 PST 1996
Article: 18736 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Is Kevin Abrams a Putz or a Schmuck?
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 09:52:24 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <4cdjme$b4v@homer.alpha.net>
References: <30E6EEC8.145@cyberhighway.net> <4c73lk$3hg@news.netvision.net.il> <4c99lc$m2_006@lurch.sccsi.com>
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ganymede@newpop.sccsi.com (Greg R. Broderick) wrote to  and
alt.politics.homosexuality:


»»There is no hard evidence to prove that Judaism is innate and far more 
How about a Talmudic dispute on whether Kevin is a putz or a schmuk?
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From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 00:29:58 PST 1996
Article: 18737 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Outside the sphere of moral sense
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 09:52:35 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <4cdjmo$b4v@homer.alpha.net>
References: <4c7mer$fgl@news.mixcom.com> <4c9ucq$c3q@news.netvision.net.il>
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote to  and alt.politics.homosexuality:


»»"Amoral" means morally neutral. How could you say such a thing about
»» me? Does being an ethical monotheist to you mean that I'm morally 
»» neutral?

OED:  Amoral -- Not within the sphere of moral sense.

Perhaps I should have been clearer. Your actions are not referenced to
any branch or type of morality and not guided by any moral principles,
that is to say, they're outside the sphere of moral sense, unless we
consider that your "moral senxe" be $$$$$ and cents.
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From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 00:50:51 PST 1996
Article: 18437 of alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Kevin, your spam is causing heart attacks by the dozen.
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 22:09:21 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4ceus6$1ck@homer.alpha.net>
References: <4c7meu$fgl@news.mixcom.com> <4c9uia$c3q@news.netvision.net.il> <4cdjna$b4v@homer.alpha.net>
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   Kevin, you're getting some of your Israeli friends and American
friends of Israel very upset.

   They, and alt.sex.pedophilia have been the only real complainers
about this. I guess that's where the high blood pressure is
concentrated.

   You started this by adding irrelevant israeli newsgroups to your
list when replying to us. (I assume you're not the one who spammed in
the pedophiles, are you?)

   I started out by trimming out those groups when replying to you but
you kept adding them back in.

   Not only that, but with time you added more israeli-orientated
groups to the list.

   I don't exist on this earth to trim your lists for you.

   Please trim before you spam. If you don't know how to trim your
newsgroups, ask your friendly mohel.


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From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 00:51:03 PST 1996
Article: 18494 of alt.activism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.activism,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: An African Disease for Leone Nero, the Black Lion
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 01:40:53 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4cfb8p$8i3@homer.alpha.net>
References: <4c8tj8$no9@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4cb5j9$j87@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
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leonenero@aol.com (Leone Nero) wrote to  and
alt.politics.homosexuality:

»»Those who think there are no laws in the book against sodomy are sadly
»»mistaken, since many states do have laws that make sex between men a
»»felony. Unfortunately for this country, those laws (like so many others)
»»are not enforced. Now, in response to the individual who said that if

Yes.

If we had rigidly enforced the laws against mixing the races, then
whites whouldn't have the African disease AIDS.
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From xplore@primenet.com Thu Jan  4 07:42:18 PST 1996
Article: 18740 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.fibr.net!nntp.news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail
From: xplore@primenet.com
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Enough of Pink Talk and Apulecius
Date: 3 Jan 1996 07:57:02 -0700
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All of these ads for the Pink Swastika Book are not appropriate in any
news group. I am tired of all the "hate mail" spamming  17 newsgroups.

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!! (Yes I'm shouting)
Here is the guys internet information. I am making a complaint and
mailing copies of posts to the FBI because hate crimes can be
considered a federal offense.
You can do what you want with this info:


MIX Communications (MIXCOM-DOM)
   P.O. Box 17166
   Milwaukee, WI 53217

   Domain Name: MIXCOM.COM

   Administrative Contact, Technical Contact, Zone Contact:
      Roth, Dean A.  (DAR20)  sysop@MIXCOM.COM
      (414) 351-1868 (FAX) (414) 351-5783

   Record last updated on 30-Mar-95.
   Record created on 04-Jan-91.

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Milwaukee Internet Xchange BBS
      ------------------------------
   Milwaukee, WI  Office: (414) 290-2020
              BBS  Modem: (414) 290-2050
   Subscription Info: info@mixcom.com

MIX ID      Name                              Status
--------    ------------------------------    ----------
eeaaee      Al Geiersbach                     Off-line




From msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu Thu Jan  4 07:42:24 PST 1996
Article: 18767 of alt.revisionism
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From: msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu (Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: 4 Jan 1996 06:45:09 GMT
Organization: Loyola University Chicago
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david petry (petry@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: It's pretty obvious in what ways homosexuality does great harm, 

I don't know about that...hell I live in one of the coolest 
neighborhoods in Chicago (Andersonville) and we have this humongous gay
and lesbian population. Our crime rate is lower than that of most suburbs;
our economy is thriving and constantly expanding; and all this while we
have a population density in this area aproximately equal to that of 
Singapore. I haven't seen any harm being done to the neighborhood or 
its residents. Maybe you ought to take a look around here and see for 
yourself what the neighborhood turns into when gays and lesbians flock 
in. I garuntee you'll appreciate the results. :) (Oh yeah, we have a huge
immigrant population too)

: but in political battles, the obvious is often ignored.

It's "ignored" because it is not true. 

: For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
: many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
: thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
: they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
: They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
: meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
: direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.

I agree mostly, but love for life is not limited to parents who have 
children. Artists, poets, authors, musicians, good friends, &c. can 
also convey a love for life to the world at large, and to children in 
particular, without having children themselves. If you lived here 
you'd see the very life-affirming vibrant culture that surrounds this 
neighborhood...probably *because* this area is so diverse!

: So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
: not promote life, 

I've known people who were open homosexuals since I was six. Nobody
*recruited* me, pal. But since you seem to have a conspiracy in mind, 
let's see you back it up. Where are your statistics proving that 
homosexuals recruit young children? Let's see figures from the FBI or 
CDC or Kinsey Institute. The burden of proof that a conspiracy exists 
rests with you. 

: the parents might reasonably feel that something very
: valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
: which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
: been committed. Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.

Priests and nuns don't have children either. Are these lifestyles 
destructive also? 

: Those who promote homosexuality as being on a par with heterosexuality
: are in fact denying parents the right to concern themselves with this 
: abstract notion of promoting life itself. 

There is nothing abstract about what you are talking about. You have 
limited the affirmation of life to the concrete: having children. It 
is frankly a very shallow definition of life which, far from being 
loving or life-affirming, is materialistic and places emphasis on mere 
survival of the species. 

: That is, the gay rights 
: advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
: system upon our society.  

The same can be said of the opposition: that they are using the law to 
impose a particular belief system (which states that homosexuality is 
immoral) upon our society. 

: And in many people's opinions, that belief
: system is built upon hatred - a rejection of the fundumental love of
: life which is essential to a happy and meaningful life.

These opinions are sadly misinformed. In your particular case, they are
misinformed because you base them on (1) a rather nihilistic 
definition of life as simply survival of the species through children and 
(2) total ignorance of gay and lesbian culture.

: The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,
: do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
: They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
: to play.  They can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
: to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
: lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  

Same can be said of childless yuppies, priests, nuns, &c. Why 
homosexuals in particular?

: So it is neither suprising nor unreasonable 

This is where you are wrong, it is *very* unreasonable.

: that parents should support 
: laws which tend to reduce the chances that their children will be seduced
: by the homosexual lifestyle.  Parents do have a legitimate interest in
: protecting their children from the homosexual world view.

So they can have grandchildren? This is far, far from a legitimate 
interest. 

You haven't proved your case. 

Blessed Be
Mike Smith

This post copyright Michael Smith, all rights reserved, (c) 1996. All
networks have permission to reproduce this post, with the sole and unique
exception of Compuserve. Compuserve may reproduce this post for their
users for a cost of $50 per post flat fee. Failure to notify Michael Smith 
of reproduction of this post will be understood as acceptance of terms of
this copyright agreement. This fee is collectable once a year until such 
a time as Compuserve re-activiates all newsgroups related to homosexuality,
at which time the fee is no longer charged.
DISCLAIMER: My opinions do not necesarily, or even remotely, reflect those 
of Loyola University, Chicago



From msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu Thu Jan  4 09:42:34 PST 1996
Article: 39371 of alt.society.civil-liberty
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From: msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu (Michael Smith)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: 3 Jan 1996 18:29:21 GMT
Organization: Loyola University Chicago
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:
: Mike,

: > In order for homosexuality to be considered a disease, there has to be 
: > POSITIVE IRREFUTABLE proof to back up such a consideration. In other 
: > words, the burden of proof lies with YOU, once again.

: I disagree, the burden of `proof' lies with you folks. After all,
: it's you who wants the whole nation to accept homosexuality as a normal
: and equally valid form of sexual expression alongside heterosexuality.

Quite the opposite: society has assumed for a long time that 
homosexuality is immoral and an invalid form of sexual expression. 

Let us turn the situation around for a second. There are those who 
believe that all Jews are in a conspiracy to kill Gentles, including 
Christians. Am I to believe these theories? Am I to believe these 
theories if most of society dislikes Jews? 

The fact is that neither the anti-Jewish theories going around nor the 
anti-gay theories you espouse have suffiencent backing to demonstrate 
that either group is engaged in a conspiracy. 

Now a point that is closer to home. Many Christians assume that Jews are 
immoral because they do not accept Christ. Society has accepted this as 
"fact" for thousands of years. Does the burden of proof lie with *you* 
that Jews are not inherently immoral, or with the *Christians* to 
demonstrate *their* case?

In both cases, the burden of proof lies with the accuser. In this case, 
the accuser is yourself, even if most of society is backing you up, and 
you *must* prove your case. Popularity of the proposition does not 
constitute proof.

: I am saying, and will continue to say, that in all areas, whether 
: historical, religious or scientific you have no legitimate basis upon
: which to substantiate your claims for acceptance other, than it being
: a personal `preference' or `orientation.'

Even if you are correct here, *which you are not*, there is no basis for 
you to claim that homosexuality is a disease *or* that the gay culture is 
directly responsible and culpable for the rise of Hitler. 

Even so, as stated, *you are incorrect* in your assertion. Historically 
homosexuality was considered normal in many cultures, not the least of 
which were Greece and Rome. The fact that Paul had to make up a word for 
homosexual prostitution in Greek should tell us something. More to the 
point, Michel Foucault gives a quite brilliant analysis of Greek 
philosophy and drama wrt homosexuality. Part of his analysis focuses on 
the philosophical problem of the time, the relationship between a 
free-born boy and a grown man, which at the time was considered part of 
the introduction of said boy to society at large. 

Scientifically speaking there are multiple articles published by the 
likes of Simon LeVay which detail very careful experiments to demonstrate 
that there is some link between sexual orientation and the size of a part 
of the brain known as the INAH-3, located near the hypothalamus (the part 
of the brain that controlls sexuality). Causality has not been 
established, but as it stands the jury is still out on whether 
homosexuality is "normal" for many persons or not. 

: What I am also saying is that homosexuals have a responsiblity to the
: rest of the community which they don't seem to care about, regardless of 
: the harm they are causing. 

Verbal masturbation. Please cut to the chase, will you?

: Can you prove to us that homosexuality is not 
: harmful, to both the individual and society? 

I have said this once and I shall say this again: the burden of proof 
lies with you. After all, you are the one trying to demonstrate a causal 
link between homosexuality and some detrimental effect on society, not I.

: I and millions of other
: Americans, given the opportunity, can prove that it is. 

Then please do so. You are more than welcome to try, as others have 
tried, so long as you recognize my right to attack your proof.

: Are you willing,
: and capable, of entering into a full, fair and open debate with those of 
: us who disagree with you?

I have been debating openly, fairly and fully with you for two months, 
Mr. Abrams. I've debated openly, fairly and fully with most of the 
anti-gay-rights crowd for in excess of five years. I cannot say the same 
for them, or for you, given the number of ad-hominems, empty statements, 
illogical statements and stupid assumptions that have gone back and forth 
thus far. Furthermore, you *know* I've been debating this point with you 
openly and honestly, and that I have been more than fair to you in public. 
Frankly I think your attempts to characterize my actions otherwise are at 
least disingenuous and at worst dishonest.

: Regards,

: Kevin E. Abrams

Blessed Be
Mike Smith

DISCLAIMER: My opinions do not necesarily, or even remotely, reflect those 
of Loyola University, Chicago


From oconnell@slr.orl.mmc.com Thu Jan  4 09:42:36 PST 1996
Article: 39378 of alt.society.civil-liberty
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From: Kevin O'Connell 
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: 3 Jan 1996 18:04:40 GMT
Organization: Lockheed Martin -- Orlando  InterNetNews site
Lines: 82
Message-ID: <4cegfo$lj1@theopolis.orl.mmc.com>
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petry@ix.netcom.com(david petry) wrote:
>In <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> james9@aol.com (James9) writes:
>
>>Kevin, I've watched your messages for a couple of months now, and don't
>>seem to recall a time when you offered a reasonable explanation as to the
>>"harm" caused by homosexuality.
>
>
>Let me give it a shot.
>
>It's pretty obvious in what ways homosexuality does great harm, ..

	Not to me.
[snip]
>
>So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
>not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very
>valuable has been destroyed.  

	But they don't seduce anyone into any "lifestyle".

>Those who promote homosexuality as being on a par with heterosexuality
>are in fact denying parents the right to concern themselves with this 
>abstract notion of promoting life itself. 

	How?

>That is, the gay rights 
>advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
>system upon our society.  

	How?

>And in many people's opinions, that belief
>system is built upon hatred - a rejection of the fundumental love of
>life which is essential to a happy and meaningful life.

	They are wrong.  All they do is love someone who is of the
same gender.  Where did hate come in?  Anger, hate, and fear are 
associated with the treatment they receive for admitting to this love.

>The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,
>do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
>They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
>to play.  They can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
>to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
>lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  

	No more so than all the DINKs out there.  I am single with
no kids.  I give 5 times my "fair share" to United Way.  I volunteer
for Habitat for Humanity (they get some of my money too), I have
a god child I spend too much money on (to quote her parents), I have
a few other choice charities, I save for my retirement, I pay taxes,
I vote, I work....  How am I a threat to society?  Oh, and I'm not
gay either.

>So it is neither suprising nor unreasonable that parents should support 
>laws which tend to reduce the chances that their children will be seduced
>by the homosexual lifestyle.  Parents do have a legitimate interest in
>protecting their children from the homosexual world view.

	Well, depending upon what you mean by "protecting" I might
be tempted to say no.  I'm an not sure what you mean either by 
"being seduced by the homosexual lifestyle".  Fast cars, nice cloths,
fancy homes, are not the restricted lifestyle of homosexuals.  And
if you mean you don't want your kid to be able to understand himself
and his own sexuality if he finds out he is gay, I'm not sure I would
agree with that point of view.  It makes for very unhealthy children.
Our society is full of enough unhealthy children, we don't need any
new ones.

	Oh, and by the way, if it weren't for all the restrictions 
against homosexuals adopting children, there might be alot more
homosexuals who had the same responsibilities and vested interests 
about the next generation that you seem to think they don't have.
Let them adopt children, let them marry, let your children play 
with thier children, and you might find out you have far more in
common than you seem to think.


					Kevin O'Connell



From ferrar@uiuc.edu Thu Jan  4 09:42:38 PST 1996
Article: 39387 of alt.society.civil-liberty
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From: ferrar@uiuc.edu (Greg Ferrar)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 15:05:43 -0600
Organization: The University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana
Lines: 147
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An interesting article, and well worded.  I think, however, that there are
a lot of fallacies in your thinking, and your conclusion is way off. 
Here's a summary of the fallacies:

In article <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>, petry@ix.netcom.com(david
petry) wrote:
> For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
> many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
> thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
> they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
> They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
> meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
> direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.

YOU SAY: The purpose of life is to create life.

FALLACY: Actually you said "promote life," but your argument seems to be
only that creation of life by their children is critical to some people. 
If you really meant "promote life," then that's a reasonable aim, but
homosexuality does not interfere in it, or in the "love of life" in any
way clear to me.  So assuming you're talking about creating life, I think
this is no longer the purpose of life.  When there are 100 people on the
planet, maybe then that's the whole purpose.  But when the number of
people passes a few million, you have so many people that there's no
reason for them all to create life.  Creation of life becomes one of the
tasks of a society, but cannot and should not be the task of each
individual.  If every individual must create life, we end up with
population growth, which is a very bad thing past a certain point.  This
point was passed long ago (perhaps around 100 million), and any further
creation of life is intensely destructive to our species and our habitat. 
We should be trying to prevent creation of life, not to promote it. 
Further population growth is illogical.

(actually, I didn't point out a fallacy here; I just spouted my own
opinion.  However, I believe that statement "the purpose of life is to
create life" is fundamentally flawed.  I will attempt from now on to stick
to true identification of fallacies.)

> So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
> not promote life, the parents might reasonably feel that something very
> valuable has been destroyed.  Their children will have lost sight of that
> which is most important in life, and in a genetic sense, a murder has 
> been committed.  Life, in the abstract sense, has been destroyed.

YOU SAY: homosexuals seduce children into their lifestyle.

FALLACY: That's unprovable.  Though it's possible to make a case that
homosexuality is a learned trait, it is equally possible to make a case
that it is genetic.  Most homosexuals feel it is genetic, though they
probably wouldn't know if it were learned.  In any case, even if it is a
learned trait, homosexuals simply do not try to convert children.  Having
felt the blade of prejudice first-hand, they generally feel no desire to
subject another person to their fate.  Homosexuals do not make passes at
children, and generally no not even tell children of their sexual
orientation.  Children may be affected by their genes, or they may be
affected by the culture at large, by they are not seduced by individuals.

YOU SAY: children who become homosexuals have abstractly died

FALLACY: You're basing this on your fundamental point that the purpose of
life is to create life.  I have shown that that is a very poor goal.

YOU IMPLY: homosexuals cannot have children

FALLACY: Homosexuals can mother and father children just like anyone
else.  If they truly want children (if, for instance, their true goal in
life is to create life), they will become parents.  Adoption is also an
alternative, though difficult due to societal wrongheadedness.

> Those who promote homosexuality as being on a par with heterosexuality
> are in fact denying parents the right to concern themselves with this 
> abstract notion of promoting life itself. That is, the gay rights 
> advocates are attempting to use the law to impose a particular belief 
> system upon our society.  And in many people's opinions, that belief
> system is built upon hatred - a rejection of the fundumental love of
> life which is essential to a happy and meaningful life.

YOU SAY: Gay rights activists are attempting to use the law to impose a
particular believe system upon our society.

NO FALLACY THERE.  But then, everyone does that all the time.  You might
even say that's the definition of "law."  This is not a bad thing. 
Anti-gay groups also would like to use the law to impose a particular
belief system.

YOU IMPLY: If homosexuality were legal, parents would not be able to
influence their child's morals with respect to homosexuality.

FALLACY: Parents will always be able to heavily influence their children's
morals.  Simple proximity is bound to create an influence.  (Opinion:
furthermore, parents should not be allowed to control their children's
access to information.  The child should know all his or her options, and
then with the parent's moral guidance can, can make informed decisions.)

YOU SAY: Homosexuals' belief system is build on hatred of life.

FALLACY: Again you confuse creation of life with love of life.  People can
have long, happy, fulfulling lives without having children.  People can
positively effect society over a lifetime without having children. 
Homosexuals love life as much as anyone.

> The homosexuals, freed from the burden of caring for the next generation,
> do have more resources with which to "enjoy" life in a hedonistic sense.
> They can afford flashier clothes and fancier toys, and they have more time
> to play.  They can afford to spend time fabricating seductive philosophies 
> to rationalize and to glamorize their lifestyle.  They can make their 
> lifestyle seductive to impressionable and naive children.  

YOU IMPLY: Homosexuals do not care for the next generation; heterosexuals do.

FALLACY: Homosexuals can have children, and more importantly,
heterosexuals can have no children.  It is absurd to equate the value of a
person with the number of lived (s)he creates.  (Opinion: in fact, I would
say the more children a person has, the more destructive that person is to
society).

YOU SAY: Homosexuals hedonistically spend money.

FALLACY: Homosexuals are in all sorts of jobs, with all sorts of
salaries.  Many of them are barely scraping by.  You may be correct in the
broad sense; homosexuals probably have more spending money in general
(due, as you say, to lack of children), but that's not a negative thing. 
More spending money means more spending, and more spending stimulates the
economy.

YOU SAY: Homosexuals live in glamour.

FALLACY: They life the same as anyone else.  You know a lot of
homosexuals, and you don't even know they're homosexual.  You cannot in
general tell homosexuals by the glamour in their lifestyle, or by any
other outward signs.

YOU IMPLY: Not having children is evil and hateful

FALLACY: This is perhaps the worse of your errors.  There are so many
people out there who have not had children.  Some cannot.  Some chose not
to, for reasons of religion or convenience.  Some people don't like
children.  Only a small portion of those without children are
homosexuals.  To condemn broadly all those who have no children is to
condemn more heterosexuals than homosexuals.  (Opinion: furthermore, as I
suspect I've made clear, I roundly congratulate anyone who makes it
through life without getting seduced into the childbearing business.  Any
such person is a boon to society, as their life actually reduces our
catastrophically high population).


  -Greg Ferrar (ferrar@uiuc.edu)


From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 09:42:39 PST 1996
Article: 39391 of alt.society.civil-liberty
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Kevin, your spam is causing heart attacks by the dozen.
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 22:09:21 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4ceus6$1ck@homer.alpha.net>
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   Kevin, you're getting some of your Israeli friends and American
friends of Israel very upset.

   They, and alt.sex.pedophilia have been the only real complainers
about this. I guess that's where the high blood pressure is
concentrated.

   You started this by adding irrelevant israeli newsgroups to your
list when replying to us. (I assume you're not the one who spammed in
the pedophiles, are you?)

   I started out by trimming out those groups when replying to you but
you kept adding them back in.

   Not only that, but with time you added more israeli-orientated
groups to the list.

   I don't exist on this earth to trim your lists for you.

   Please trim before you spam. If you don't know how to trim your
newsgroups, ask your friendly mohel.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 09:42:40 PST 1996
Article: 39392 of alt.society.civil-liberty
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.christnet
Subject: Pedophiles not interested in homosexuality either !!!!!!!!!!! Is Kevin writing a new book?????
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 22:20:58 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <4cevhv$1ck@homer.alpha.net>
References: <4c12ji$jqa@nntp3.news.primenet.com> <4c4kte$40p@news.netvision.net.il> <4c7meh$fgl@news.mixcom.com> <4ccnre$r43@altrade.nijmegen.inter.nl.net>
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Xanti@beta.cz (Xanti) wrote to  and alt.politics.homosexuality:


»»But could you please stop spamming in a.s.pedophilia? At the moment,
»»it is already crowded with the Raven shit, and these absurd
»»(anti)homosexual debates are of no interest of us.

I don't have the slightest idea how you got on the newsgroups list.

I've trimmed you out a few times.

You'll be interested to know that pedophilia and the various israel
newsgroups have been most irritated by these cross posts, while the
Christians and the Limbaughites haven't uttered a peep.

Does that tell us something?

At any rate, I don't know how you got to be included.

It appears that the poster from Jerusalem has been responsible for
adding in all the israel groups. That's where I first noticed them, at
any rate. I wouldn't be surprised if he also put in the pedophiles. He
writes propaganda books, you know, and he's probably watching you in
pedophilia so he can include your conversations in his next book.

If you look at the newsgroups, he also has book reviews included,
which I've just trimmed out of this response.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

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From ROGER.WILLIAM.LYNN@office.wang.com Thu Jan  4 10:09:30 PST 1996
Article: 48795 of alt.religion.christian
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From: ROGER.WILLIAM.LYNN@office.wang.com (Roger W. Lynn)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.religion,alt.recovery.addiction.sexual,alt.radio.whadya-know,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.media
Subject: Re: *** THE PINK SWASTIKA, Table of Contents ***
Date: Wed, 03 Jan 1996 16:30:23 GMT
Organization: west.wang.com
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Message-ID: <4ceb4g$aor@elf5.wang.com>
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james9@aol.com (James9) wrote:


>> He quickly lowered his OCA profile after a TV cameraman at KOIN-TV asked
>> him if the rumors were true that he is gay.

>Interesting...it wouldn't be the first time that someone covered their
>homosexual orientation with this kind of overt denial. 

Sort of like McCarthy's Right hand man during his 'commie purges?'  
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
* Safety Chairperson - Colorado White Water Association        *
* Roger W. Lynn      - RogerWLynn@aol.com                      *
*                      75603.1512@compuserve.com               *
*                      ROGER.WILLIAM.LYNN@office.wang.com      *
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////



From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 10:09:50 PST 1996
Article: 48895 of alt.religion.christian
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.homosexual,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.atheism,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.org.promisekeepers
Subject: Re: Politics being censored by the religious fundamentalists
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 00:45:42 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 38
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hughes@ash-uky.campus.mci.net (Philip Hughes) wrote to  and
alt.politics.homosexuality:


»»The "war" Christians are fighting is not of this world !

»»We are not fighting to impose our religion on anyone, we are fighting
»»to keep a certain religion, that being the lack of Christianity,  on
»»us and our children.

That's a lie. You're fighting to impose your religion on the rest of
the people of this country.

I suggest you read 1 Corinthians and live up to it, especially verses
12 1nd 13.

Obey the command of Paul.

It is not your business to judge others outside your church.




»»By the way Jesus DOES love you !!

Right wing christians don't.
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From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 10:09:54 PST 1996
Article: 48920 of alt.religion.christian
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From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.homosexual,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.org.promisekeepers
Subject: Re: Good news to the question of Homosexuality
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 01:40:41 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <4cfb8e$8i3@homer.alpha.net>
References: <4b90pa$4hg@dub-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <7tzumCBg3naN079yn@netaxs.com> <4c3v6b$r5a@maureen.teleport.com> 
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nebarry@netaxs.com (Barry Hofstetter) wrote to  and
alt.politics.homosexuality:

»»That polygamy occurred among the patriarchs and certain royal families
»»of Judah and Israel does not mean that the entire biblical tradition
»»treats polygamy positively.  Rather the opposite.

»»> I know you don't accept David and Jonathan, but for the benefit of

»»culture.  Therefore, there is no need to understand the David and 
»»Jonathan accounts of a homosexual relationship, and in fact no 
»»interpreter until modern times has so understood it.

There's no need to read homosexuality into the David and Johnathan
account, to be sure. But I note that if the "dogs" passage mentioned
here from Kings does indeed refer to male temple prostitutes, then it
would seem the ancient Jews were as heavily involved in at least some
aspects of homosexual relations as their heathen neighbors.

I wouldn't doubt that Solomon had his little boys as well as his
little girls, and David likewise. They being heterosexual would have
sought immature or otherwise effeminate partners.

I think the male temple prostitutes catered to the heterosexual
population who wanted variety, or whatever, or who resorted to
effeminate males because of a shortage of females.

I don't know the ages of David and Johathan, but if they did have a
sexual relationship, I wouldn't describe it as homosexual unless they
were both quite mature and masculine.


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From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 10:10:31 PST 1996
Article: 49125 of alt.religion.christian
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.christianlife,alt.homosexual,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.org.promisekeepers
Subject: Should we stop persecuting homosexuals?
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 15:56:49 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <4cgtdj$2fp@homer.alpha.net>
References: <4c6at4$7rd@horus.infinet.com>  <4cbung$3br@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> 
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nebarry@netaxs.com (Barry Hofstetter) wrote to  and
alt.politics.homosexuality:

»»       1) As I have argued elsewhere (without citing any support, since
»»          I don't have any, but I invite anyone to give
»»          counter-evidence), rape seems to run along the lines of sexual
»»          preference.  This would suggest that the men of the town in
»»          Genesis were indeed homosexuals when they were not intent on
»»          violating the hospitality code by abusing strangers.

So you think there were no women or children in Sodom except for Lot's
family? If you read the story, it says every man, from the oldest to
the youngest, participated. I can't quite comprehend the intent of
your sentence. Germans I know often use "when" when they speak and
are translating "wenn = if". Did you intend "if they were not intent
on violating the hospitality"?

And if you read the story of Gibeah, you'll find it says that your
"homosexuals" wanted to "know" the Levite but settled for his
concubine enstead.
It would seem that the ancient Jews and Sodomites were, if not
heterosexual, bisexual in their interests.

»»       2) Please cite the references from 1 and 2nd Kings.  I have most
»»          often seen the discussion centering on the terminology in
»»          Leviticus.  A quick check of Boswell's *Christianity, Social
»»          Tolerance, and Homosexuality* reveals that he doesn't even
»»          have a discussion on Kings worthy of citation in the indices.

I've given the chapters and verses here before, but not the Hebrew or
Greek.

»»       3) Pay attention to Paul's flow of discourse leading up to Rom
»»          1:25-26.  He is listing sins which result from the denial of
»»          of the true God (Rom 1:18), and which are symptomatic not only
»»          of that denial but of God's judgment on those who deny.
»»          Idolatry is a primary example, quite relevant in the ancient

Apparently you consider philosophy one of your "sins"? Read Romans
1:21 "they stultified themselves through speculating to no purpose..."

"Stultifying themselves" is in the category of "mutual degradation of
their bodies".

»»          world, but sins of a sexual and social nature are also listed
»»          by Paul.    

Where is "stultifying" defined as a sin in the bible?


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From eeaaee@mixcom.com Thu Jan  4 10:28:32 PST 1996
Article: 18799 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!usenet
From: eeaaee@mixcom.com (Apuleius)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.journalism.gay-press,alt.homosexual
Subject: Re: ** SS - GAY NAZI History  (#2) 175 - SS **
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 17:49:23 GMT
Organization: Alpha.net -- Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 57
Message-ID: <4ch40l$5ov@homer.alpha.net>
References: <4cf23u$r5m@news.netvision.net.il> <4cf3g5$r5m@news.netvision.net.il> <4cgnqv$bp4_002@news.uh.edu>
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RRubin@uh.edu (Rhonda Rubin) wrote to  and alt.journalism.gay-press:

»»In article <4cf3g5$r5m@news.netvision.net.il>,
»»   kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:
»»>                  $$$$$$ "GAYS Bankrolled HITLER" $$$$$$
»»>
»»>        "At age 30 many regarded the Furhrer as an attractive sex 
»»>	symbol. His masculine good looks were also to some extent 
»»>	helpful in gaining Big-Money support from Ernst Roehm's 
»»>	circle of wealthy gay friends." [Frank Rector, "The Nazi 
»»>	Extermination Of Homosexuals, Stein & Day 1981, P.51]

I should make a modification of what I said earlier about not finding
the quotation on page 51 of the book. It's true that it isn't there.
I discover this under a picture of Hitler, however:

   "Adolf Hitler at about age 30 when he embarked on what he declared
was his 'historic mission of destiny.' He was a handsome man at the
time. In fact, he was frequently called _Der Schoene Adolf_ (the
handsome Adolf), a descriptive and affectionate term used by girls and
women. Many regarded the _Fuehrer_ as an attractive sex symbol. His
masculine good looks were also to some extent helpful in gaining
big-money support from Ernest Roehm's circle of wealthy gay friends.
(_National Archives Photo_)"

You will note that the quote has been deceptively modified without
giving any indication of editing in the message post you quoted.

For example, I examined what he says in Kristallnacht & Herschel
Grynszpan.

To start, Rector says "at least 1,000 Jews were killed."
The Columbia Encyclopedia says the figure was 91.

Rector says Grynszpan's alleged homosexual affair with vom Rath was
"probably true" but he ignores the fact that when Grynszpan went to
the embassy he asked for the ambassador, not for vom Rath, and he saw
vom Rath only because the under-official to whom he was directed was
late and not yet at work.

Rector mentions Samuel Igra and his book _Germany's National Vice_,
which is highly recommended by Kevin Abrams a major source of material
used in _The Pink Swastika_. Igra asserts that there were documents
proving Hitler had been a male prostitute in Vienna and in Munich.
Rector says "there surely can be no question that the documents
concerning Hitler's homosexual hustling were false -- if indeed, such
documents ever really existed."


 

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The Romans referred to Jesus using "ECCE HOMO", not "ECCE HETERO"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



From schwartz@infinet.com Thu Jan  4 13:44:17 PST 1996
Article: 18811 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news.telebyte.net!multiverse!ragnarok.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!infinet!cmh-p087.infinet.com!user
From: schwartz@infinet.com (Sara aka Perrrfect)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 15:17:13 -0500
Organization: Cat's Lair
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
References: <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il> <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>
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Hmmm... maybe a reasonable post. Let's see...

In article <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>, petry@ix.netcom.com(david
petry) wrote:


> It's pretty obvious in what ways homosexuality does great harm, but in
> political battles, the obvious is often ignored.
> 
Not obvious to *me*, but what the heck. I'll read more and see if this
starts to make sense.

> For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
> many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
> thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.  And 
> they want to see their children do the same in turn for their own children.
> They want to pass along this love for life. That's what makes life
> meaningful for these people.  It gives people a sense of purpose and 
> direction, and it makes life's hardships tolerable.

Well, that's not an unreasonable thought. Nor does it discount the many
people homo- and heterosexual, who ADOPT children.
> 
> So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
> not promote life, 

BZZZZZT!
 
Thanks for playing.
 
Anyone who uses the words "homosexuals" and "seduce children" in
generalities like this isn't worth a second thought.
 
Bye.

-- 
"Who CARES if Hitler killed six million jews, or sixty million?  He
identified the problem facing post-WWI Germany, and took decisive action to protect HIS people."
    The Wit and Wisdom [sic] of Les Griswold


From kraigb@nwu.edu Thu Jan  4 17:38:25 PST 1996
Article: 18831 of alt.revisionism
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From: kraigb@nwu.edu (Kraig Blackwelder)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: Enough of Pink Talk and Apulecius
Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 17:37:20 -0600
Organization: Pandemonium Cathedral
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In article <4ce5fu$alb@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, xplore@primenet.com wrote:

> All of these ads for the Pink Swastika Book are not appropriate in any
> news group. I am tired of all the "hate mail" spamming  17 newsgroups.
> 
> ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!! (Yes I'm shouting)
> Here is the guys internet information. I am making a complaint and
> mailing copies of posts to the FBI because hate crimes can be
> considered a federal offense.


   Uh, I hate to burst your bubble, but Apuleus wasn't the one advertising
the trashy book, it was Kevin Abrams.  If you're going to have an attack,
you should post HIS internet provider and have people give HIM a bad day
because he's the one who wrote the stupid book, he's the one who keeps
spamming with the name of the book and the order number, and, most
importantly, he's the one who puts the eighteen or so newsgroups into the
"send to" row.  

   If you're going to get testy, at least penalize the right guy.

                                                                     K.


From wdstarr@crl.com Thu Jan  4 21:59:31 PST 1996
Article: 18859 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!chi-news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!crl5.crl.com!not-for-mail
From: wdstarr@crl.com (William December Starr)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: 4 Jan 1996 07:17:23 -0800
Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <4cgr23$k3v@crl5.crl.com>
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In article <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>, 
petry@ix.netcom.com(david petry) said:

> It's pretty obvious in what ways homosexuality does great harm,
> but in political battles, the obvious is often ignored.

...and then proceeded to "prove" his point by equating "upsets
some intolerant people" with "does great harm."  Oh yeah, _real_
persuasive, David.

-- William December Starr 



From kevin_e@netvision.net.il Fri Jan  5 02:14:16 PST 1996
Article: 18878 of alt.revisionism
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From: kevin_e@netvision.net.il
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,shamash.gayjews,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,israel.gayjews,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 02:48:19 PDT
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Magenta wrote,

> As a jew, I am a human despite what Nazis say.
> As a gay, I am a human despite what homophobes like you say.
> That is ALL of the justification I need to lead my life the way god
> created me, and to love whomever I will.

This is an example of how corrupt in your thinking you've become.
Being Jewish, which means living by the Jewish ethic, includes the
complete rejection of homosexuality as do the seven Noahide laws which
all humanity are responsible to uphold and were in existance long before 
the Jewish people. There is a `human' sexual constitution which promotes 
the dignity of all mankind whether you are willing to accept this or not. 
I can appreciate however, how very difficult it must be for you to be 
both a `Jew' and a `homosexual' at the same time. This must be very 
debilitating and internally divisive. Have you ever seen the film they 
made about the life of Roy Cohn? "Citizen Cohn," in spite of the fact 
Cohn was `born' a Jew, is a classic depiction of a Nazi mentality. You
see, the homofascist mentality is not restricted to any particular group
or people, but can be found amongst all races, religions and groups.

> >What I am also saying is that homosexuals have a responsiblity to the
> >rest of the community which they don't seem to care about, regardless of 
> >the harm they are causing. Can you prove to us that homosexuality is not 
> >harmful, to both the individual and society? I and millions of other
> >Americans, given the opportunity, can prove that it is.
 
> Do so. You and your hypothetical millions have no proof beside your
> twisted contorted bigoted propaganda which has nothing whatsoever to
> do with real homosexual people, Just like the Nazi propaganda that
> claimed that jews caused "harm" to the German economy. You are a Nazi
> Kevin, and a Nazi of the worst kind because as a Jew you should know
> better than to spout the crap you post.

	Who are the `real' homosexual `people' in your view?
	How about those described below by Samuel Igra.


             "UNITED by A Common VICE"


        "What marks out Hitler's war from all previous 
	warfare among civilized people is the orgy of moral 
	destruction which was destined from the start, to 
	end with the defeat of the destroyer. As the 
	(National Socialist) movement they were aided and 
	abetted and supported financially as well as 
	politically by the industrialist capitalists of the
        Rhineland; but the initiative did not come from the 
	latter it came from Hitler as the `condottiere' of a 
	band of evil men who were united together by a common 
	vice." [Samuel Igra, "Germany's National Vice," 
	Quality Press Ltd, London, 1945:27]

        Compliments of, Kevin E. Abrams, co-author of, THE 
	PINK SWASTIKA: Homosexuality In The Nazi Party 1995.

 
               "A Primary or Seminal Evil"

        "For the scourge of German militarism is only the 
	secondary effect of a primary evil. And evil lies in 
	the region of personal morality, the region from which 
	all political evil springs. The poison in Germany has 
	penetrated from above downwards, from the leaders
        to the followers. This was true of Germany in the middle 
	ages, when the Prussian State was first founded by the 
	military pseudo-religious order of the Teutonic Knights, 
	among whom the vice of homosexualism was rampant. The 
	poison grew more virulent under Frederick the Great,
        who was himself a moral pervert. It broke out as a mass 
	malady under the last Kaiser, whose court was the 
	rendezvous of a camarilla that had made a cult of 
	unnatural vices." [Samuel Igra, "Germany's National                 
	Vice, Quality Press Ltd, London, 1945:7-8]

        Compliments of, Kevin E. Abrams, co-author of, THE PINK                
 	SWASTIKA: Homosexuality In The Nazi Party 1995.



From pir565@freenet.mb.ca Fri Jan  5 07:18:43 PST 1996
Article: 18886 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!pravda.aa.msen.com!news1.best.com!news.texas.net!news.sprintlink.net!holonet!colossus.holonet.net!yama.mcc.ac.uk!warwick!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca!pooh.freenet.mb.ca!winnie.freenet.mb.ca!pir565
From: Keith Turner 
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 10:31:00 -0600
Organization: Blue Sky FreeNet of Manitoba Inc.
Lines: 2
Message-ID: 
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If you are posting to alt.books reviews, shouldnt there at least be a 
book involved?


From cmshaw@tucson.princeton.edu Fri Jan  5 07:18:45 PST 1996
Article: 18895 of alt.revisionism
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From: cmshaw@tucson.princeton.edu (Caitlin M. Shaw)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,shamash.gayjews,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,israel.gayjews,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Followup-To: alt.politics.homosexuality
Date: 5 Jan 1996 05:50:28 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <4cie74$ihr@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
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Note:  followups set to the newsgroup I'm reading from only, and wildly
inappropriate groups deleted altogether.

Further note:  I've killfiled "kevin_e" and will no longer see any
replies to this thread unless they also include my name ("cmshaw").

In article <4chur8$6pp@news.netvision.net.il>
 kevin_e@netvision.net.il writes:

>Have you ever seen the film they 
>made about the life of Roy Cohn? "Citizen Cohn," in spite of the fact 
>Cohn was `born' a Jew, is a classic depiction of a Nazi mentality. You
>see, the homofascist mentality is not restricted to any particular group
>or people, but can be found amongst all races, religions and groups.

"ROY:  Like all labels they tell you one thing and one thing only:
where does an individual so identified fit in the food chain, in the
pecking order?  Not ideology, or sexual taste, but something much
simpler: clout.  Not who I fuck or who fucks me, but who will pick up
the phone when I call, who owes me favors.  This is what a label refers
to.  Now to someone who does not understand this, homosexual is what I
am because I have sex with men.  But really this is wrong.  Homosexuals
are not men who sleep with other men.  Homosexuals are men who in
fifteen years of trying cannot get a pissant antidiscrimination bill
through City Council.  Homosexuals are men who know nobody and who
nobody knows.  Who have zero clout.  Does this sound like me, Henry?
HENRY:  No.
ROY:  No."

--Tony Kushner, _Millenium Approaches_

This is the part of _Angels in America_ that hit me in the gut, the only
scene that made me cry when I first read it.  Do you understand why it's
so powerful?

Roy Cohn is exactly what gay activists are working so hard to prevent:
a powerful man with no "family", no community, no culture.  We couldn't
help him, and he went wrong on his own.  Can't you see that we're trying
to raise *this* generation better so that there won't be any Roys, any
Ernsts, any J. Edgers...?  It hurts us far more than you seem to realize
when one of our own goes bad and is "lost".


Caitlin
-- 
Caitlin MacKay Shaw  /\    /\    /\  
  \/    \/  "There is no one true way." M. Lackey
Princeton University Mathematics Department and Women's Studies Program


From gmc0@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan  5 07:18:47 PST 1996
Article: 18905 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: gmc0@ix.netcom.com (George M. Carter)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 13:46:43 GMT
Organization: Free Radical Enterprises
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <4cj9sv$emq@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il> <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: gmc0@ix.netcom.com
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petry@ix.netcom.com(david petry) wrote:

>In <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> james9@aol.com (James9) writes:

>>Kevin, I've watched your messages for a couple of months now, and don't
>>seem to recall a time when you offered a reasonable explanation as to the
>>"harm" caused by homosexuality.


>Let me give it a shot.

>For many people, the whole purpose of life is to promote life.  That is,
>many people want to create an environment in which their children can 
>thrive and love life and love their parents for giving them life.

It is curious to me how so many fundamentalist are allied with the
right wing.  And that right wing hardly espouses an embracing of life!
Just the opposite.  Reducing any restrictions on industry's ability to
pollute, abject greed, destruction of education, widening the gap
between wealthy and poor, condemning those who are different.  Such a
peculiar way to embrace life!  Then of course, there is this idea that
continued proliferation despite overpopulation is somehow a good idea!
Such an absurdity.

And yet I have known many lesbians and gays who either have children
of their own or adopt.  They are terrific parents!

Nobody approached me as a youth and said: golly, you should be queer.
This was a set of feelings that I had.  They are quite natural to me.

I reject your bigoted notions as peculiar, arcane and potentially
laying the groundwork for oppression and further violence.  Indirectly
in the form of suicide by this message--which is a lie--that being gay
is wrong.  Directly in the increase in violent, anti-gay crimes
fostered by messages provided by narrow-minded bigots like yourself.

George




From gmc0@ix.netcom.com Fri Jan  5 07:18:47 PST 1996
Article: 18906 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news00.sunet.se!sunic!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netnews
From: gmc0@ix.netcom.com (George M. Carter)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 13:46:45 GMT
Organization: Free Radical Enterprises
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4cj9t1$emq@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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Reply-To: gmc0@ix.netcom.com
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macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU (Warren Ockrassa) wrote:

>I agree wholeheartedly -- if one has children, hopefully one would be 
>moved to cherish, protect and provide for them to the best of one's ability.

And heteros have such a terrific track record at this.  How many
hundreds of thousands of babies are abandoned each year?

>4. Murder has been committed? You are seriously equating homosexuality 
>with murder? Oh, please, get real -- Making love is not the same as 
>putting a bullet through a head.

By the logic that says a "murder" was committed, we should incarcerate
women every month at menstruation.  And goddess forbid what we should
do to men if they masturbate or have a wet dream!!  Millions of sperms
that could have been life have died!!  Men are MONSTROUS MURDERERS!!

As to the rest of your post: bravo!

These people do not have anything remotely like a clue.

George




From RRubin@uh.edu Fri Jan  5 14:26:39 PST 1996
Article: 18912 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!news.uh.edu!opus
From: RRubin@uh.edu (Rhonda Rubin)
Newsgroups: shamash.gayjews,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: 5 Jan 1996 15:20:02 GMT
Organization: ACME Looniversity
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Message-ID: <4cjc1a$e70_001@news.uh.edu>
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In article <4chur8$6pp@news.netvision.net.il>,
   kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote, among other things:

>Have you ever seen the film they 
>made about the life of Roy Cohn? "Citizen Cohn," in spite of the fact 
>Cohn was `born' a Jew, is a classic depiction of a Nazi mentality. You
>see, the homofascist mentality is not restricted to any particular group
>or people, but can be found amongst all races, religions and groups.

First off, you've presented your opinion: Roy Cohn, a born Jew, is a 
classic depection of a Nazi mentality. Yet you have shown no evidence of 
this assertation. First, present samples of his behavior. Next, present a 
definition of Nazi mentality. If this definition is your own, it 
immediately becomes suspect, as it has no support. Next, show evidence that 
the behavior is a proven Nazi mentality. 

Finally, I have to laugh at you here. You're basing your knowledge of Roy 
Cohn on how James Woods depicted him in a *film*? Good golly...great 
research, Kevin. 



>> Do so. You and your hypothetical millions have no proof beside your
>> twisted contorted bigoted propaganda which has nothing whatsoever to
>> do with real homosexual people, Just like the Nazi propaganda that
>> claimed that jews caused "harm" to the German economy. You are a Nazi
>> Kevin, and a Nazi of the worst kind because as a Jew you should know
>> better than to spout the crap you post.



>	Who are the `real' homosexual `people' in your view?
>	How about those described below by Samuel Igra.
>
>
>             "UNITED by A Common VICE"
>
>
>        "What marks out Hitler's war from all previous 
>	warfare among civilized people is the orgy of moral 
>	destruction which was destined from the start, to 
>	end with the defeat of the destroyer. As the 
>	(National Socialist) movement they were aided and 
>	abetted and supported financially as well as 
>	politically by the industrialist capitalists of the
>        Rhineland; but the initiative did not come from the 
>	latter it came from Hitler as the `condottiere' of a 
>	band of evil men who were united together by a common 
>	vice." [Samuel Igra, "Germany's National Vice," 
>	Quality Press Ltd, London, 1945:27]

What did this prove Kevin? This passage does not prove your allegation one 
iota. 


>               "A Primary or Seminal Evil"
>
>        "For the scourge of German militarism is only the 
>	secondary effect of a primary evil. And evil lies in 
>	the region of personal morality, the region from which 
>	all political evil springs. The poison in Germany has 
>	penetrated from above downwards, from the leaders
>        to the followers. This was true of Germany in the middle 
>	ages, when the Prussian State was first founded by the 
>	military pseudo-religious order of the Teutonic Knights, 
>	among whom the vice of homosexualism was rampant. The 
>	poison grew more virulent under Frederick the Great,
>        who was himself a moral pervert. It broke out as a mass 
>	malady under the last Kaiser, whose court was the 
>	rendezvous of a camarilla that had made a cult of 
>	unnatural vices." [Samuel Igra, "Germany's National                
 

This passage does not prove your allegation either. This is someone's 
opinion, and you happen to agree with it. Proof, my dear Kevin, lies with 
facts and logic. While your statements contain *some* facts, your logic is 
faulty. Thus, your conclusions are suspect. Again, I ask for proof. Not 
your opinion, but real proof. 

Rhonda

--
"The dew fell with a particularly sickening thud this morning."


From staloff@scws45.harvard.edu Fri Jan  5 18:34:47 PST 1996
Article: 18972 of alt.revisionism
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From: staloff@scws45.harvard.edu (Mark Staloff)
Newsgroups: uk.religion.jewish,soc.culture.israel,shamash.gayjews,israel.lists.il-talk,israel.israeline,israel.gayjews,alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.homosexual,alt.books.reviews,alt.activism
Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
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Date: 5 Jan 1996 21:42:36 GMT
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

: Being Jewish, which means living by the Jewish ethic, includes the
: complete rejection of homosexuality as do the seven Noahide laws which
: all humanity are responsible to uphold and were in existance long before 
: the Jewish people.

This is but one interpretation of Judaism.  By your rules only a very, 
very small percentage of American Jews are actually Jewish, which leaves 
the others in some nether realm of no identity.  We aren't going to 
resolve the orthodox/conservative/reform split here, so I believe this 
line is somewhat irrelevant.

: There is a `human' sexual constitution which promotes 
: the dignity of all mankind whether you are willing to accept this or not. 

So says Kant.  I don't happen to agree with his reasoning.  He certainly 
doesn't carry any divine sanction; you answer this yourself when you say 
I don't have to accept it.  I don't.  Pfft.

: I can appreciate however, how very difficult it must be for you to be 
: both a `Jew' and a `homosexual' at the same time. This must be very 
: debilitating and internally divisive.

Hrm.  I'm Jewish and bisexual, and I believe in G-d.  I don't accept the 
Bible as a unilateral authority, however.   And I'm getting by just fine, 
thank you very much.  I fail to see how a line in a book calling 
homosexuality an abomination would lead me to collapse.  I'm not a 
computer, after all; I don't value all pieces of information equally and 
I'm capable of judging input and fitting it accordingly.

: Have you ever seen the film they 
: made about the life of Roy Cohn? "Citizen Cohn," in spite of the fact 
: Cohn was `born' a Jew, is a classic depiction of a Nazi mentality. You
: see, the homofascist mentality is not restricted to any particular group
: or people, but can be found amongst all races, religions and groups.

Er... thank you, Herr Logical Fallacy.  I don't quite understand this 
"homofascist mentality", or how you leap from race to group to whatever, 
or how on Earth (big point here) you can extrapolate from one individual 
to indict a whole subset of the human race.

: 	Who are the `real' homosexual `people' in your view?
: 	How about those described below by Samuel Igra.

Ok.  Let's check this out.

:              "UNITED by A Common VICE"

:         "What marks out Hitler's war from all previous 
: 	warfare among civilized people is the orgy of moral 
: 	destruction which was destined from the start, to 
: 	end with the defeat of the destroyer. As the 
: 	(National Socialist) movement they were aided and 
: 	abetted and supported financially as well as 
: 	politically by the industrialist capitalists of the
:         Rhineland; but the initiative did not come from the 
: 	latter it came from Hitler as the `condottiere' of a 
: 	band of evil men who were united together by a common 
: 	vice." [Samuel Igra, "Germany's National Vice," 
: 	Quality Press Ltd, London, 1945:27]

Yes.  Some Nazis were homosexuals.  Homosexuals are no more possessing of 
inherent virtue than heterosexuals.  I'll concede that with no problem.  
Your point is?

:         "For the scourge of German militarism is only the 
: 	secondary effect of a primary evil. And evil lies in 
: 	the region of personal morality, the region from which 
: 	all political evil springs. The poison in Germany has 
: 	penetrated from above downwards, from the leaders
:         to the followers. This was true of Germany in the middle 
: 	ages, when the Prussian State was first founded by the 
: 	military pseudo-religious order of the Teutonic Knights, 
: 	among whom the vice of homosexualism was rampant. The 
: 	poison grew more virulent under Frederick the Great,
:         who was himself a moral pervert. It broke out as a mass 
: 	malady under the last Kaiser, whose court was the 
: 	rendezvous of a camarilla that had made a cult of 
: 	unnatural vices." [Samuel Igra, "Germany's National                 
: 	Vice, Quality Press Ltd, London, 1945:7-8]

This is a very interesting and very silly theory.  He doesn't a) prove 
that all these men are homosexuals - about the Knights Templar, for 
example, they were shut down by the King of France on trumped up charges 
of homoesexuality (along with some other stuff, such as desecration of 
the crucifix) because he knew that would work.  Plus, there's no 
connection of homosexuality and militarism demonstrated here.  The 
majority of Nazis were straight.  There must be a strain in 
hterosexuality that leads people to  militarism.  There you go.

Mark


From djk@primenet.com Fri Jan  5 20:32:14 PST 1996
Article: 49506 of alt.religion.christian
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From: djk@primenet.com (Daniel J. Karnes)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.broadcast,alt.religion,alt.recovery.addiction.sexual
Subject: Re: *** THE PINK SWASTIKA, Table of Contents ***
Date: 3 Jan 1996 09:40:02 -0700
Organization: TASP Development Group
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In article <4cdkuq$k31@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
Str Ranger  wrote:

>Just to note to show the response I sent to the above mentioned posting:
>
>A Point to consider:
>
>Hate and Intolerance are NOT family values.
>
>Tom L.

But recogntion of perversion and depravity and appropriate response to
same are not "hate" and "intolerance".

-djk

--
       *     *  *
   ****     *  *  *   Daniel J. Karnes / djk@TASP.NET / djk@Primenet.COM
  *  *  *  *  * *     W  A  6  N  D  T - The one and only and original!!
 ****  ****  *   *   "One of the few remaining true white magic hackers"


From denning@ida.net Sat Jan  6 11:31:17 PST 1996
Article: 19003 of alt.revisionism
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
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From: denning@ida.net (John W. Denning)
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 17:17:04 -0600
References: <4c6m3a$1tv@news.netvision.net.il> <4cbjuf$nd7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com> 
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>  In article <4cbnbm$pmg@cloner2.ix.netcom.com>, petry@ix.netcom.com(david
>  petry) wrote:

 > So if the homosexuals seduce those children into a lifestyle which does
 > not promote life, 

Sorry to miss the point, but where the heck does homosexuality and
seduceing children mean the same thing.  From what I've heard there have
been a few hetro's seduce children in history. I'd feel real safe saying
there have been a lot more hetros seduce children than homosexuals.

To be homosexual means one has the ability to love someone of the same
sex. That's it, not seduce children, or have sex on the street, or rape
everyone of the same sex. Heck I'd even bet there are homosexuals who
don't believe in free open sex, they feel it's a private thing.

-- 
           -JD-                     )              
           John W. Denning          (                denning@ida.net
           Idaho Falls, ID          )                 (208)522-4413



From sburright@library.wright.edu Sat Jan  6 22:10:34 PST 1996
Article: 19044 of alt.revisionism
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From: Scott 
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: 6 Jan 1996 20:39:25 GMT
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In response to david petry (petry@ix.netcom.com), 
msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu (Michael Smith) wrote:

>I've known people who were open homosexuals since I was six. Nobody
>*recruited* me, pal. But since you seem to have a conspiracy in mind, 
>let's see you back it up. Where are your statistics proving that 
>homosexuals recruit young children? Let's see figures from the FBI or 
>CDC or Kinsey Institute. The burden of proof that a conspiracy exists 
>rests with you. 

Tsk, Mike, are you new at this?  Don't you know that the first rule is 
that the conspiracy is so vast and powerful that it covers its own 
tracks, and therefore evidence is unavailable?  The conspirators are 
everywhere, Mike, everywhere, I tell you!!  THAT's why you CAN'T SEE 
THEM!!!  THE SYSTEM IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE WITH HOMO JEW NAZIS FROM THE 
HOLLOW EARTH AND THEY CONTROL THE MEDIA FOR THEIR ALIEN MASTERS AND THEY 
KILLED PRESIDENT KENNEDY TO KEEP CASTRO FROM BRINGING BACK THE GOLD 
STANDARD AIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

..ahem, sorry.  So you see, it's a "strange loop": The assertion, by its 
very nature, *has* to be made a priori.

Unfortunately, you will never, ever get through to these people, because 
they are violent psychotics, as illustrated by their answer to this very 
simple question: Which causes more harm, bullets or blowjobs?  This is 
the question that separates us from the guys in the tinfoil hats, and I 
pray that the latter never get rowdy enough that we'll actually have to 
shoot it out with them to keep them from enslaving or killing us, which 
they believe is their Constitutional and God-given duty.  Too bad history 
doesn't give me much cause for optimism.

--Scott Burright





From sburright@library.wright.edu Sat Jan  6 23:53:04 PST 1996
Article: 39648 of alt.society.civil-liberty
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From: Scott 
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: 6 Jan 1996 20:39:25 GMT
Organization: Wright State University
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In response to david petry (petry@ix.netcom.com), 
msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu (Michael Smith) wrote:

>I've known people who were open homosexuals since I was six. Nobody
>*recruited* me, pal. But since you seem to have a conspiracy in mind, 
>let's see you back it up. Where are your statistics proving that 
>homosexuals recruit young children? Let's see figures from the FBI or 
>CDC or Kinsey Institute. The burden of proof that a conspiracy exists 
>rests with you. 

Tsk, Mike, are you new at this?  Don't you know that the first rule is 
that the conspiracy is so vast and powerful that it covers its own 
tracks, and therefore evidence is unavailable?  The conspirators are 
everywhere, Mike, everywhere, I tell you!!  THAT's why you CAN'T SEE 
THEM!!!  THE SYSTEM IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE WITH HOMO JEW NAZIS FROM THE 
HOLLOW EARTH AND THEY CONTROL THE MEDIA FOR THEIR ALIEN MASTERS AND THEY 
KILLED PRESIDENT KENNEDY TO KEEP CASTRO FROM BRINGING BACK THE GOLD 
STANDARD AIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

..ahem, sorry.  So you see, it's a "strange loop": The assertion, by its 
very nature, *has* to be made a priori.

Unfortunately, you will never, ever get through to these people, because 
they are violent psychotics, as illustrated by their answer to this very 
simple question: Which causes more harm, bullets or blowjobs?  This is 
the question that separates us from the guys in the tinfoil hats, and I 
pray that the latter never get rowdy enough that we'll actually have to 
shoot it out with them to keep them from enslaving or killing us, which 
they believe is their Constitutional and God-given duty.  Too bad history 
doesn't give me much cause for optimism.

--Scott Burright





From macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU Sun Jan  7 10:02:57 PST 1996
Article: 19094 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!news.eas.asu.edu!noao!news.Arizona.EDU!seds!macadamia
From: macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU (Warren Ockrassa)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Followup-To: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Date: 6 Jan 1996 18:43:36 GMT
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George M. Carter (gmc0@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU (Warren Ockrassa) wrote:

: >I agree wholeheartedly -- if one has children, hopefully one would be 
: >moved to cherish, protect and provide for them to the best of one's ability.

: And heteros have such a terrific track record at this.  How many
: hundreds of thousands of babies are abandoned each year?

A good point. Let's not forget ole Susan Smith, either -- she was so 
life-affirming she drowned her two young sons. Now maybe the possibility 
of those boys being adopted by a gay or lesbian couple is a worse fate 
than the one they suffered, but I doubt it very much.

: >4. Murder has been committed? You are seriously equating homosexuality 
: >with murder? Oh, please, get real -- Making love is not the same as 
: >putting a bullet through a head.

: By the logic that says a "murder" was committed, we should incarcerate
: women every month at menstruation.  And goddess forbid what we should
: do to men if they masturbate or have a wet dream!!  Millions of sperms
: that could have been life have died!!  Men are MONSTROUS MURDERERS!!

Hey, speak for yourself, man... (Heh heh). Another good point. And even 
if a man never masturbated, the occasional wet dream would, as you say, 
still hold him as guilty.

And of course contraceptives are all lethal weapons -- picket your local 
baby-murdering drugstore!

: As to the rest of your post: bravo!

Why, thank you, Sir!

: These people do not have anything remotely like a clue.

Oh, they have a clue; the problem is that their clues all lie in an 
entirely different sphere of existence.

--
              Warren, That Nut, macadamia@seds.lpl.arizona.edu, 
    www.seds.org/~macadamia, PGP block by finger, fanatical Linux convert

                  "He was dense as lead and half as bright."


From macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU Sun Jan  7 10:02:58 PST 1996
Article: 19095 of alt.revisionism
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From: macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU (Warren Ockrassa)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Followup-To: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Date: 6 Jan 1996 18:51:09 GMT
Organization: University of Arizona SEDS
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John W. Denning (denning@ida.net) wrote:

: Sorry to miss the point, but where the heck does homosexuality and
: seduceing children mean the same thing.  From what I've heard there have
: been a few hetro's seduce children in history. I'd feel real safe saying
: there have been a lot more hetros seduce children than homosexuals.

You'd be right, too. The majority of molesters are avowed heterosexuals,
and I believe the same is true of pedophiles (note the implicit
distinction here, BTW). In fact, many are deeply offended at being
confused with "faggots". 

: To be homosexual means one has the ability to love someone of the same
: sex. That's it, not seduce children, or have sex on the street, or rape
: everyone of the same sex. Heck I'd even bet there are homosexuals who
: don't believe in free open sex, they feel it's a private thing.

Right again! Wow, you're two for two! Just because I prefer same-sex
intimacy does not mean that I want to mount every man I see, and it does
not mean that I participate in orgies each week (though, of course, I
don't mind if anyone else does -- that's none of my business).

Sooooo many people seem to have a bizarre idea about what it is to be 
homosexual -- that we're involved in some kind of massive conspiracy to 
make everyone queer, that we get together every night an screw 'till 
dawn, that we only see kids as either sex objects or future "recruits" in 
some kind of lavender army.

No one -- and I mean no one -- has that kind of time and energy.

--
              Warren, That Nut, macadamia@seds.lpl.arizona.edu, 
    www.seds.org/~macadamia, PGP block by finger, fanatical Linux convert

                  "He was dense as lead and half as bright."


From williamh@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan  7 10:03:09 PST 1996
Article: 19152 of alt.revisionism
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From: williamh@ix.netcom.com(William House )
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Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
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dionisio@infinet.com () writes: 
>kevin_e@netvision.net.il said:

>}I disagree, the burden of `proof' lies with you folks. After all,
>}it's you who wants the whole nation to accept homosexuality as a
>}normal and equally valid form of sexual expression alongside
>}heterosexuality.

>But since you're the one seeking the special revocation of rights
>guaranteed to all citizens under the Constitution, the burdon fall
>upon you to demonstrate to the Government a pressing and compelling
>need for that action to be taken. This has been the position of the
>Supreme Court for a good long while. 

>}What I am also saying is that homosexuals have a responsiblity to the
>}rest of the community which they don't seem to care about, regardless
>}of the harm they are causing.

>Oh, Socialism. I knew we'd get to the juicy stuff sooner or later.

Yea, Kevin, what was that you said about Communists and Nazis being
Socialists?

Or, does it only matter if they are homosexual Nazi/Commies?








From mans0113@sable.ox.ac.uk Sun Jan  7 13:26:53 PST 1996
Article: 70962 of alt.politics.correct
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From: mans0113@sable.ox.ac.uk (Harry Fulton)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.politics.homosexual,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.british,alt.news-media,alt.journalism.freelance
Subject: Re: *** "Did Gays TORCH the Reichstag?" ***
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kevin_e@netvision.net.il wrote:

: Gay History 101

:                 "The Reichstag Fire, 
: 		A Pretext For Tyranny?"

: In view of the present day homosexualist movement, there are certain
: things which should be know about the role of homosexuals during the
: Weimar period in Germany, which led up to Hitler's seizure of power on
: January 30, 1933. On February 27, 1933, arsonists set fire to the German
: Reichstag in Berlin. This functioned as a pretext for the Nazis to seize
: complete power, suspend all civil liberties and eliminate their opposition.

: Professor of history, Carroll Quigley writes; "This attack on the 
: opposition from above was accompanied by a violent assault from below, 
: carried out by the SA. In desparate attacks in which eighteen Nazis and 
: fifty-one opposition were killed, all Communist, most Socialist, and many 
: Center Party meetings were disrupted. In spite of all this, it was evident 
: a week before the election that the German people were not convinced.
: Accordingly, under circumstances which are still mysterious, a plot was
: worked out to burn the Reichstag building and blame the Communists.
: "MOST OF THE PLOTTERS WERE HOMOSEXUALS" and were able to persuade a 
: degenerate moron from Holland maned Van der Lubbe to go with them. After 
: the building was set on fire, Van der Lubbe was left wandering about in it 
: and was arrested by the police. The government at once arrested four
: Communists, including the party leader in the Reichstag (Ernst Torgler).

: The day following the fire (February 28, 1933) Hindenburg signed a decree
: suspending all civil liberties and giving the government power to invade
: any personal privacy, including the right to search private homes or
: confiscate property. At once all communist members of the Reichstag, as
: well as thousands of others, were arrested, and all Communist and Social-
: Democrat papers were suspended for two weeks.

: The true story of the Reichstag fire was kept secret only with difficulty.
: Several persons who knew the truth, including a Nationalist Reichstag
: member, Dr. Oberfohren, were murdered in March and April to prevent their
: circulating the true story. Most of the Nazis who were in on the plot were
: murdered by Goring during the "blood purge" of June 30, 1934. The
: four Communists who were directly charged with the crime were acquitted
: by the rugular German courts, although Van der Lubbe was convicted"

: [Tragedy & Hope, By, Carroll Quigley, The Macmillan Company, New
: York, 1966, Pages 437-438]


:                      "WHO Set The Reichstag Fire?"

: A second source, Ewan Butler and Gordon Youngs book, "The Life And 
: Death of Hermann Goering, documents in more detail the individuals who 
: were actually involved.

: "Hitler had been raised to power because the "respectable" people of 
: Germany saw in him the champion who would slay the Bolshevick dragon. 
: Yet the dragon was, in those first days in 1933, inconveniently quiescent.
: Even those who had been frightened by the horrid visions of Red devilment
: presented to them by the Nazi press and by Nazi orators began to feel that 
: perhaps Hitler and his men had exaggerated the Bolshevik danger and that
: the new powers which they were now so busily assuming were unnecessary.
: As for the opponents of the Nazis, they made no secret of the scepticism 
: -- that it was still possible in those early days -- and many waverers 
: listened to them.

: Captain Goering decided that he must bring this state of affairs to an 
: end. The "revolutionary" element of the Party leadership would, for once, 
: act independently, without consulting "legality Adolf," as Hitler was 
: already called behind his back. Goebbels, a fellow "activist," must be in 
: the plot and also, unfortunately, Roehm, since the help of his SA was 
: needed. The `camarilla' which finally drew up plans for the "frame-up" 
: against the Communists consisted, besides Captain Goering, its originator, 
: of Goebbels, Roehm, Heines, Count Helldorf, leader of the Berlin SA, Karl 
: Ernst, a certain Standartenfuhrer (regimental commander) from the SA named 
: Sander and two other members of the SA Fielder and von Mohrenschild."
:  
: (Roehm, Heines, Count Helldorf and Karl Ernst were know homosexualists
: and top level Commanders of the SA Storm Troopers) 

: [Ewan Butler And Gordon Young, "The Life And Death Of Herman Goering,"
: A David And Charles Military Book, Distributed in the US by Sterling Pub. 
: Co. Ltd. 1989:113]

: Butler and Youngs book, goes on to explain the torching of the Reichstag
: in greater detail. History documents that Gays were instrumental in 
: propelling Hitler into the Chancellor's office which gave birth to Nazi 
: imperialism and led directly to the Holocaust itself. THE PINK SWASTIKA, 
: Homosexuality In The Nazi Party, refutes `gay' claims that homosexuals 
: were targeted as a class, for either persecution, or extermination by the 
: Nazis.

: It must be stated, in 1933, Himmler calculated there were 2.2 million 
: homosexuals in Germany, representing approximately 2.7% of Germany's 
: population. Gay Holocaust historian James Steakley states that between 
: 10,000 and 15,000 prisoners charged under section 175 of the German penal 
: code, died in concentration camps, many of who were not homosexuals, many 
: were Roehm loyalists, and many were femmes who the Nazis despised as 
: symbols of emasculation. This hardly represents a massive `persecution' 
: of homosexuals, as many of todays `gay' activists like to claim. Also The 
: Encyclopedia of The Holocaust, records no attacks against homosexuals in 
: occupied territories.

: In a most conspicuous omission, Hitler, while railing in Mein Kampf about 
: how he is going to eliminate the Jewish people, NEVER mentions anything 
: about homosexuals. The Nazis condemned homosexuality for public relations
: and as a catch-all category to eliminate politial enemies. Very few `gays'
: were murdered by the Nazis `because' of their homosexuality. Homosexuals
: were in fact, instrumental to Hitler's success and were largely behind
: German style militarism. Being that todays `gay' rights movement began in 
: Germany and because the Society for Human Rights, which became the 
: largest homosexual rights movement in Germany during the Weimar period 
: (1918-1933)was founded by Nazis, the present North American homosexualist 
: movement can be effectively considered a German Nazi fifth column.

: "The most famous incident in the history of the Amerian Nazi Party 
: resulted from its 1977 demand to stage a march through the largely 
: Jewish neighborhood of Skokie, Illinois, a Chicago suburb and the home
: of many Holocaust survivors. This plan was devised by Frank Collin, who
: often appeared with his followers `in full Nazi regalia: brown shirts,
: black boots, and armbands with swastikas' and who `advocated that all
: African-Americans, Jews and Latinos be forcibly deported. Civil 
: authorities effectively blocked the march at first, but the American 
: Civil (anarchy) Liberties Union (ACLU) rose to Collin's aid and forced 
: the city of Chicago to allow it. The subsequent event drew international
: media attention. Homosexualists Johansson and Percy, in "Outing: 
: Shattering the Conspiracy of Silence, have finally revealed, more than 
: fifteen years later, that Collin was a homosexual pederast. In 1979 
: Collin was arrested `for taking indecent liberties with boys between 
: ages 10 and 14' and was sentenced to seven years in prison."

: [The Pink Swastika, 1995:143-144]

: "Another branch of the American Nazi movement, the National Socialist
: League, is openly homosexual: Founded in 1974 by defecting members of
: the National Socialist White People's Party, this San Diego-based NSL 
: is unique in restricting its members to homosexual Nazis. Led by veteran 
: anti-semite Russel Veh, the group distributes membership applications
: declaring NSL's `determination to seek sexual, social and political
: freedom."

: [The Pink Swastika, 1995:144]

: In conclusion, THE PINK SWASTIKA is NOT a book based on opinion, but
: documentation, much of which is available to the average reader at your
: local library. The authors of THE PINK SWASTIKA encourage everyone to 
: check our sources for themselves. If we can be of further assistance, 
: please contact us by `e'mail.

: Regards,

: Kevin E. Abrams

Well there you go, it was the gays who were responsible
for the second world war ! Anyone would have thought it was
the responsibility of an anti-semitic and ( depression induced )
nationalistic german electorate.

Harry.










From dougg@comtch.iea.com Mon Jan  8 00:28:12 PST 1996
Article: 19227 of alt.revisionism
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From: dougg@comtch.iea.com (Douglas Goodridge)
Newsgroups: alt.society.conservatism,alt.society.civil-liberty,alt.sex.pedophilia,alt.sex.homosexual,alt.sex.advocacy,alt.revisionism,alt.religion.sexuality,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.sex,alt.politics.libertarian.gay,alt.politics.homosexuality,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: 8 Jan 1996 02:37:48 GMT
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In message <4cj9t1$emq@ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> - gmc0@ix.netcom.com (George M. C
arter) writes:
:>
:>macadamia@SEDS.LPL.Arizona.EDU (Warren Ockrassa) wrote:
:>
:>>I agree wholeheartedly -- if one has children, hopefully one would be 
:>>moved to cherish, protect and provide for them to the best of one's ability.
:>
:>And heteros have such a terrific track record at this.  How many
:>hundreds of thousands of babies are abandoned each year?
:

Or killed or are simply unwanted.

This guy making the "hets embrace life" argument doesn't seem to live in the 
same world as most of us.

In this man's world, life is always the result of conscious choice.  Where 
all heterosexuals are good people who embrace life by procreating.

It doesn't translate well to the real world.  A couple of teenagers screw and 
the girl gets pregnant.  Her future is ruined by this and she grows to hate 
and blame the child....

A man rapes a woman who conceives...life has been created, does this make it 
right?

Over in many third world countries, children are born by the litter into a 
land where their chances of surviving to adulthood are miniscule.

This man's argument is based on some concept that it takes something special 
to create a life.  It doesn't.  Nor is morality based upon your ability to 
procreate and that is exactly how he sees it.

This person doesn't really have clue about what it means to be homosexual.  
His "logic" is built upon an incorrect assumption: Homosexuals are evil 
perverts who chose to be this way and want to convert everyone to 
homosexuality.

His argument makes perfect sense using the assumption above. He made his 
point well, but the simple fact is that he doesn't understand homosexuality 
and yet feels its his duty to go out and educate the world about it.

Its been said, "A wise man speaks because he has something to say.  A fool 
speaks because he has to say something."

I can't remember a case when I found this more true.

dougg



From bgoodric@nyx10.cs.du.edu Mon Jan  8 06:37:36 PST 1996
Article: 19246 of alt.revisionism
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From: bgoodric@nyx10.cs.du.edu (Bill Goodrich)
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Subject: Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA
Date: 7 Jan 1996 23:52:39 -0700
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In article <30EAA243.4FB8@orgtx71.med.uth.tmc.edu>,
Hebert  writes:

>I am an immunologist and I have been following the AIDS pandemic from 
>the early eighties.  

If that is the case, I find it hard to understand you making the statement:

>If you can remember back to the early eighties in the US we had patient 
>zero: a Canadian flight attended who happened to be homo-sexual.  

If you ARE what you say above, then you surely would be aware that:

1) The "patient zero" speculation has been discredited by virological, 
   immunological, and epidemiological evidence, and 

2) The "flight attendent" story turned out to be the invention of a 
   political commentator, and never had any basis in fact. While he has 
   admitted that there was no factual basis for it, he has threatened to 
   sue anyone publicly linking him with the story by name (so I won't). 

While some of the outbreaks have been traced to imported blood products, 
most are probably impossible to trace to their point of introduction. 
While there is still some debate about whether all of the WHO-reported 
cases really are what we know as AIDS, it is clear that SOME are, and 
the majority of those have evidenced a great deal of heterosexual 
transmission. 


W.E. (Bill) Goodrich, PhD

*-----------------------*------------------------------------------------*
* CHANGE YOUR SEXUALITY * http://nyx10.cs.du.edu:8001/~bgoodric/ctg.html *
*                       *                                                *
*    Without Aversive   * bgoodric@nyx10.cs.du.edu                       *
* Behavior Modification *     Creative Technology Group                  *
*       or Drugs        *     PO Box 286                                 *
*                       *     Englewood, CO 80151-0286                   *
*-----------------------*------------------------------------------------*


From progosch@eagle.wbm.ca Mon Jan  8 06:37:38 PST 1996
Article: 19250 of alt.revisionism
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From: progosch@eagle.wbm.ca (Patrick Rogoschewsky)
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Subject: Re: The harm caused by homosexuality (was Re: New Book, THE PINK SWASTIKA)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 01:02:47 -0700
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In article <4cmmlt$k9@mercury.wright.edu>, Scott
 wrote:

> In response to david petry (petry@ix.netcom.com), 
> msmith5@orion.it.luc.edu (Michael Smith) wrote:
> 
> >I've known people who were open homosexuals since I was six. Nobody
> >*recruited* me, pal. But since you seem to have a conspiracy in mind, 
> >let's see you back it up. Where are your statistics proving that 
> >homosexuals recruit young children? Let's see figures from the FBI or 
> >CDC or Kinsey Institute. The burden of proof that a conspiracy exists 
> >rests with you. 
> 
> Tsk, Mike, are you new at this?  Don't you know that the first rule is 
> that the conspiracy is so vast and powerful that it covers its own 
> tracks, and therefore evidence is unavailable?  The conspirators are 
> everywhere, Mike, everywhere, I tell you!!  THAT's why you CAN'T SEE 
> THEM!!!  THE SYSTEM IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE WITH HOMO JEW NAZIS FROM THE 
> HOLLOW EARTH AND THEY CONTROL THE MEDIA FOR THEIR ALIEN MASTERS AND THEY 
> KILLED PRESIDENT KENNEDY TO KEEP CASTRO FROM BRINGING BACK THE GOLD 
> STANDARD AIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!

But you can find out about the conspiracy - you just gotta get a hold of
the '96 edition of the gay agenda (heck only a few days and already out
with the new edition - is that efficiency or what).  Of course you have to
be in the 'loop' to get hold of the new agenda.  Alas I have to struggle
with my older edition :(



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